Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 24

From: Sep 14, 1998

To: Oct 1, 1998

Page: 5 Of: 5



Mili -:- Cool! -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 09:01:43 (EDT)
__Jean-Michel -:- Don't worry! -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 09:10:38 (EDT)
____Isabelle -:- Don't worry! -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 16:42:29 (EDT)
______Mike -:- I would worry if I were you -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 17:09:27 (EDT)
________Isabelle -:- I would worry if I were you -:- Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 09:15:08 (EDT)
__________Sir David -:- I would worry if I were you -:- Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 10:03:05 (EDT)
__________Mike -:- What, me worry? -:- Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 11:22:01 (EDT)
____________Scott T. -:- Well said, Mike. (nt) -:- Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 12:41:51 (EDT)
____________Sir D -:- What, me worry? -:- Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 14:34:59 (EDT)
______________Mike -:- What, me worry? -:- Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 15:33:42 (EDT)
________________Isabelle -:- What, me worry? -:- Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 16:03:02 (EDT)
__________________Mike -:- Ok, but -:- Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 17:02:01 (EDT)
__________________Sir David -:- Beyond redemption -:- Sat, Sep 19, 1998 at 00:56:03 (EDT)
____________________Isabelle -:- Beyond redemption -:- Sun, Sep 20, 1998 at 12:46:46 (EDT)
__________________jethro -:- What, me worry? -:- Sat, Sep 19, 1998 at 05:43:30 (EDT)
____________________Isabelle -:- i am awake -:- Sun, Sep 20, 1998 at 12:55:40 (EDT)
____Gail -:- Inch Allah -:- Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 21:46:40 (EDT)
______Jean-Michel -:- Inch Allah -:- Sat, Sep 19, 1998 at 03:27:58 (EDT)
__Rick -:- Cool! -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 09:51:11 (EDT)
__bill -:- Cool! -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 10:14:55 (EDT)
__Sir David -:- Cool! -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 11:28:35 (EDT)
__Mike -:- He loves me.... -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 13:20:36 (EDT)
__nigel -:- Cool?? -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 18:29:54 (EDT)
____Judith -:- Cool?? -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 20:16:54 (EDT)
______Sir David -:- Cool?? -:- Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 10:09:52 (EDT)
__Jerry -:- Not really -:- Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 09:52:08 (EDT)
____Katie -:- Some facts about Moon -:- Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 10:57:08 (EDT)
____Mike -:- Right on! -:- Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 18:15:03 (EDT)
______Runamok -:- Right on! -:- Sat, Sep 19, 1998 at 00:22:23 (EDT)

RL -:- Enjoying life -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 03:04:13 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Enjoying life -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 11:26:19 (EDT)

Richard -:- Initiation & life path -:- Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 17:21:55 (EDT)
__eb -:- The Great White Brotherhood -:- Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 18:05:14 (EDT)
____Colin -:- The Great White Brotherhood -:- Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 19:49:43 (EDT)
____Robyn -:- The Great White Brotherhood -:- Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 23:56:20 (EDT)
______eb -:- The Great White Brotherhood -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 12:26:58 (EDT)
______Mike -:- The Great White Brotherhood -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 13:29:26 (EDT)
________Robyn -:- The Great White Brotherhood -:- Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 08:39:28 (EDT)
__________nigel -:- Well done, Robyn. -:- Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 20:36:43 (EDT)
____________Robyn -:- thanks nigel :) (nt) -:- Sat, Sep 19, 1998 at 22:45:24 (EDT)
__Nigel -:- Richard II -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 13:42:16 (EDT)
____Richard -:- I'm only just back... -:- Sat, Sep 19, 1998 at 05:47:41 (EDT)
______Robyn -:- I'm only just back... -:- Sat, Sep 19, 1998 at 23:41:25 (EDT)
______Katie -:- Greetings, Richard the first! -:- Sun, Sep 20, 1998 at 12:02:40 (EDT)
________richard -:- Greetings to you too !!! -:- Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 16:03:41 (EDT)

Judith -:- Uncovering childhood trauma -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 21:17:21 (EDT)
__Robyn -:- Uncovering childhood trauma -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 22:25:22 (EDT)
____Carol -:- Ditto on what Robyn said! -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 01:05:54 (EDT)

Sir David -:- Just harmless idiots, to him -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 20:51:48 (EDT)
__Sir D -:- But not you, Keith -:- Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 07:13:18 (EDT)
__Mike -:- I'm impressed... -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 13:36:30 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- BM's most brilliant quotes -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 12:20:18 (EDT)
__Don't you -:- love those quotes? (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 13:28:05 (EDT)
__Mike -:- You've done it again... -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 14:01:36 (EDT)
____RL -:- Old fool -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 01:06:11 (EDT)
______Mike -:- A Fool -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 10:50:14 (EDT)
__CD -:- marriage question -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 18:38:01 (EDT)
____Sir D -:- marriage question -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 21:03:57 (EDT)
______Judith -:- marriage question -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 21:27:14 (EDT)
________hamzen -:- marriage question -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 21:49:58 (EDT)
________Sir D -:- marriage question -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 21:56:56 (EDT)
______Jean-Michel -:- Orlando's quotes -:- Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 03:57:18 (EDT)
________Is Prempal really -:- THE Almighty one? -:- Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 06:22:36 (EDT)
__________RL -:- THE Almighty one? -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 01:13:01 (EDT)
____________Jean-Michel -:- THE Almighty one? -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 03:23:11 (EDT)

Chuck -:- Knowledge and sex -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 04:41:18 (EDT)
__Chuck -:- Knowledge and sex -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 06:01:24 (EDT)
__Nigel -:- time and space? - c'mon... -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 08:49:25 (EDT)
____Keith -:- time and space? - c'mon... -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 19:40:42 (EDT)
______nigel -:- Me? - confused? -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 06:38:36 (EDT)
________Keith -:- Me? - confused? -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 14:24:07 (EDT)
__________Nigel -:- Me? - confused? -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 17:53:52 (EDT)
____________Judith -:- Me? - confused? -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 20:41:48 (EDT)
______________Nigel -:- The cat shat on my hat -:- Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 19:06:47 (EDT)
________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- The cat shat on my hat -:- Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 19:19:04 (EDT)
__________________nigel -:- Gabba Gabba Hey! -:- Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 19:48:31 (EDT)
________________Judith -:- The cat shat on my hat -:- Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 22:53:34 (EDT)
__Mike -:- How did you do it? -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 12:12:21 (EDT)
____Chuck -:- How did you do it ? -:- Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 00:21:25 (EDT)
______Chuck -:- How did you do it ? -:- Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 02:02:35 (EDT)
__Sir David -:- Knowledge and sex -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 19:32:04 (EDT)
____Robyn -:- Knowledge and sex -:- Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 08:33:59 (EDT)
______Sir D -:- Need my head examined -:- Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 09:03:29 (EDT)
________Robyn -:- Need my head examined -:- Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 10:57:25 (EDT)
__________Mike -:- Mine's being examined.... -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 13:43:19 (EDT)
__________Jean-Michel -:- I've been hugged by a bear -:- Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 04:49:20 (EDT)
____________Mike -:- You've GOT to be lucky (nt) -:- Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 14:00:33 (EDT)

Chuck -:- Knowledge and sex -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 03:49:21 (EDT)
__Katie -:- To Chuck (and Brian) -:- Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 20:57:24 (EDT)

Looking for a copy of the -:- old Ashram manuel! -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 03:34:08 (EDT)
__Sir D -:- old Ashram manual! -:- Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 07:27:52 (EDT)
____Jean-Michel -:- 2 versions/old Ashram manual! -:- Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 12:31:42 (EDT)
______Sir D -:- 2 versions/old Ashram manual! -:- Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 19:35:33 (EDT)

Sir David -:- My reply to Chris Dickey -:- Mon, Sep 14, 1998 at 07:31:58 (EDT)
__Jean-Michel -:- Great quotes on sex from M! -:- Mon, Sep 14, 1998 at 10:06:19 (EDT)
____x -:- Destructive Negative Cult -:- Mon, Sep 14, 1998 at 18:03:50 (EDT)
______Mike -:- Well said, x!!!! -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 15:56:10 (EDT)
________CD -:- Well said, x!!!! -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 21:55:16 (EDT)
__________Scott T. -:- An aging Hummel perhaps? -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 23:03:43 (EDT)
__________Mike -:- Well said, x!!!! -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 14:05:15 (EDT)
____________CD -:- Well said, x!!!! -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 15:46:26 (EDT)
______________Mike -:- Why, I'm surprised... -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 17:19:07 (EDT)
______Sir David -:- I couldn't agree more, x -:- Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 22:19:16 (EDT)
______Gail -:- Destructive Negative Cult -:- Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 19:48:54 (EDT)
__Judith -:- My reply to Chris Dickey -:- Mon, Sep 14, 1998 at 18:26:33 (EDT)
____Scott T. -:- My reply to Chris Dickey -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 08:41:55 (EDT)
__VP -:- My reply to Sir David -:- Mon, Sep 14, 1998 at 19:04:31 (EDT)
____david m -:- My reply to Sir David -:- Mon, Sep 14, 1998 at 22:05:18 (EDT)
__Jim -:- The very idea -:- Mon, Sep 14, 1998 at 22:14:17 (EDT)
__Robyn -:- My reply to Chris Dickey -:- Mon, Sep 14, 1998 at 23:29:05 (EDT)
__Katie -:- to sir David and david m -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 02:08:58 (EDT)
____david m -:- to sir David and david m -:- Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 11:23:39 (EDT)
__Scott T. -:- Now that you mention it... -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 08:59:15 (EDT)
____Mike -:- Sitting ducks.... -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 12:14:32 (EDT)
______Sir David -:- Thank you -:- Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 20:02:54 (EDT)
____Diz -:- Now that you mention it... -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 02:36:55 (EDT)
______Judith -:- Now that you mention it... -:- Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 20:53:48 (EDT)
________Sir D -:- An inhuman philosophy -:- Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 09:50:13 (EDT)
__________Jerry -:- An inhuman philosophy -:- Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 13:21:22 (EDT)


Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 09:01:43 (EDT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Cool!
Message:
Hey guys, I just read this over on Jean-Michel's website:

Shri Maharaj Ji used to say, 'My message will be spread more by my critics than by my devotees. If I spend hundreds of thousands of rupees still this message will not be spread, but when my critics criticise me, I don't even spend a single penny and they just spread my Name throughout the world, and they have already done so.' Everyone knows Guru Maharaj Ji nowadays, everywhere! So He says, 'I love my critics more than my devotees!'

Any comments?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 09:10:38 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Don't worry!
Message:
I've noticed that quote already.

It's only one among myriads of stupid things m said!

But it just shows the way he behaves when confronted to 'enemies'!

Even a single leaf can't move without His will !!!

And his devotees believe it, it's so handy. No need to THINK!

Inch Allah .....
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 16:42:29 (EDT)
From: Isabelle
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Don't worry!
Message:
this is a quote from Maharaji's father, isn`t it?
Do you hate him too? (package deal for the whole family)
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 17:09:27 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Isabelle
Subject: I would worry if I were you
Message:
Isabelle: If I may, I think 'hate' is a very strong word when applied to a human being. I may be wrong, but I think that almost everyone here doesn't hate the man, they hate the behavior. They hate the cult and they hate what it does to good people. I think it has been said here more than once, that if M stopped this nonsense and apologized for ruining so many lives, then he would likely(?) be forgiven by just about everyone.

- Shri M made the same claims as M does/did. Like father, like son. I think he did as much damage to people in his day as the current M does now. And it goes alot further back than Shri M. These guys, for whatever reason, have taken advantage of people, lied to people, used people and abused people (take the 'excrement' story as an example). We put people in jail today for what the old gurus did in previous times.

- But if the shoe fits.... If the whole family is composed of liars, then I HATE the lies they ALL tell. I do not hate the people, I hate what they are doing! (I'm just really pissed at them for doing it. They know they are doing and they know better!)
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Date: Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 09:15:08 (EDT)
From: Isabelle
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: I would worry if I were you
Message:
Hi Mike
you do sound worried...
since people on this site really like quotes, here is one he said this summer:
'if you like it,fine, if you don't, walk'
(he also added: Why do you keep hanging around??)
you made your choice, and it is fine
i made my choice and it is fine too...don't worry about me
Have a good day!

PS (1): i still think that there are a lot of decent people on this site, but also some people on this site are full of hatred
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Date: Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 10:03:05 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Isabelle
Subject: I would worry if I were you
Message:
If Maharaji was what he claimed to be - the purveyer of ultimate truth - then one couldn't simply walk away. It's his claim that he is the embodiment of truth, which gets up people's noses. Sure, I walked away years ago and felt much better for it but some poor people are still trapped thinking that Maharaji is something special, like the Lord or something. I mean I believed him when he said he was the Lord God Almighty. Didn't you? That was the only reason I hung around for so many years because actually, I didn't like his philosophy or his religion. The day when Maharaji stops pretending to be God and admits that he's just as ignorant as the rest of us, will be the day that I will shut up.
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Date: Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 11:22:01 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Isabelle
Subject: What, me worry?
Message:
Isabelle: The only thing that I'm 'worried' about is YOU and and of those that think M is someone great. He is a huckster, a con, a loser and a LIAR! He IS NOT the lord of the universe, he IS NOT a great meditation teacher, he DOESN'T give a damn about you or your life and all he DOES care about is his house in Malibu and his airplane. If it suited his purpose, he would dump you folks like a hot-potato. This isn't a 'hateful' missive, Isabelle. This is the TRUTH! Do I want to see him physically hurt? NO WAY! That isn't the intent of this forum nor has it ever been the intent of this forum. The people here were some of THE MOST DEDICATED premies that ever existed (since they won't say it, I'll say it for them). NOW, some of them are really in the 'hurt locker.' They gave their ALL to him and he (figuratively) spit in their faces. HE DOESN'T PRACTICE what he preaches, so why should 'I' think it's so great?

- What we are trying to do here is to wake YOU up to the real 'reality' of M and his incredibly destructive cult. Shall I give you an example of the destructiveness? I think I will: A VERY good friend of mine is still a premie. Do you know what he used to do/be? He used to work for NASA, prior to being a premie. Do you know what he did for them/us? He's the guy that figured out what went wrong in the launch-pad fire that killed the three Apollo Astonauts. He's the guy that FIXED the problem, so that it wouldn't happen again. He's the guy that discovered how to keep the astronauts alive in a pure oxygen environment, even if there's a fire in the cockpit. He's the guy that reinvented their space suit materials and the life-support system materials, so they wouldn't burn in a pure oxygen environment fire. Sounds like a GREAT guy, doesn't he? What does this premieji do now? He's a janitor, literally. All he is capable of doing is talking in endless circles about 'mind.' He is TOTALLY incapable of having a 'normal' conversation with anyone. He is so wrapped up in M (and the endless K-thought-loop) that he is incapable of reasoning his way through a simple math problem these days. Does that sound productive? Does that sound HEALTHY? I THINK NOT!!!

- THIS is what we are trying to warn you about, Isabelle. This is what THIS FORUM is about. Additionally, it is a place where those same people, when they break free from this insanity, can find an understanding ear that will REALLY listen to them and help them (within our collective capabilities) as much as we possibly can. If M really gave a damn about any of us, he would come here and try to fix the problem, wouldn't he? He would tell us that he cared, wouldn't he? If he were the lord, he could and would do this, wouldn't he? If he were just a great meditation teacher he would do this, wouldn't he? But no, NOT A PEEP has been heard from that worm. It sounds like he REALLY cares about us (the human race), doesn't it....MY ASS!
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Date: Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 12:41:51 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Well said, Mike. (nt)
Message:
-nt
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Date: Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 14:34:59 (EDT)
From: Sir D
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Mike
Subject: What, me worry?
Message:
This friend of yours seems to be running a parallel course to my friend who was a qualified engineer and extremely bright. My friend's name was Terry and a nicer guy you couldn't meet. Just a real regular guy. In the end he too was just going on about his mind etc and was clearly falling apart. He completely lost his grip on reality due to his attempt to seperate himself from his 'mind' which Maharaji called the enemy.

Terry lost it in the end and ended up in a mental hospital. He never recovered from this personality fragmenting and is in a sorry state and on strong medication for life. Maharaji's attempt to change basic human nature and make it inhuman, was the cause of Terry's fragmentation. There have been many others who have suffered in this way.
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Date: Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 15:33:42 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Sir D
Subject: What, me worry?
Message:
Sir: Believe me when I say I am truely sorry to hear that about your friend. I feel my friend is not far behind. Jeez, I would hope not, but I see no reason for hope in my friend's case, either. He still tries to 'convert' me sometimes (kind of sad, really). The homemade satsang material he sends in the mail (or delivers to me, in person) makes no sense, at all. It's even worse than the M-quotes we have on this site (in terms of making sense). He can't even string an entire sentence together. It's pretty pathetic how this really GREAT mind went to waste following a charlatan like M. For the efforts my friend made towards NASA and the astronauts personal safety, he should be kicking-back and enjoying his life (taking a well-deserved rest), not breaking his back as a janitor for the rest of his life because he's 'thinking' in K-circles. All because (as you said) he is trying to do the unnatural thing; separating himself from his fabulous mind. What a waste... But what can you really do to stop it?
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Date: Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 16:03:02 (EDT)
From: Isabelle
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: What, me worry?
Message:
Hi Mike,
if this is really what is happenning to your friend (and to Terry), this is very sad indeed...but i guess that they do not agree with YOUR opinion about what they are doing, right?

As for me, here is my situation:
i own a house (just bought it last year), i own a car, i am free to watch movies (not just videos!), i am a partner in a consulting firm and i make good money. My work does require to do quite a bit of math and my brain functions quite well. (oh...i forgot...i also have a normal sex life!)! All of this, of course, is not due to 'Maharaji's grace'...actually, i think this has nothing to do with Maharaji at all...just some hard work and a little bit of luck...
So, again, don't you worry about me, i am doing fine ;)
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Date: Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 17:02:01 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Isabelle
Subject: Ok, but
Message:
BE CAREFUL, Isabelle. It sounds like things are going ok for you, but be watchful. You are correct when you say that the 'grace' didn't have anything to do with your success. Maybe you aren't quite as 'indoctrinated' as most premies....please keep it that way.

- BTW, my opinion of what my friend is doing has nothing to do with my observation of, what appears to be, the onset of mental illness. I'm not a psych, but I think ANYONE could see this coming. Unfortunately, he doesn't....
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Date: Sat, Sep 19, 1998 at 00:56:03 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Isabelle
Subject: Beyond redemption
Message:
Thanks for a very reasonable and intellegent response to my post. Now if there were more premies like you around then there wouldn't be quite so much venom being spit here on this forum.

I would be interested to know when you received the knowledge. Just to get an idea of your history. Of course, I doubt that you'll be posting here for very long since most premies disappear from this forum after a week or so.

For we are the untouchables. The disenchanted and the disenfranchised. We are the lost souls who have fallen into the abyss. In fact, we are beyond redemption or salvation. This is the cyber place where people who've lost their marbles do rant and rave well into the night. Now what's a nice girl like you doing in a place like this?
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Date: Sun, Sep 20, 1998 at 12:46:46 (EDT)
From: Isabelle
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Beyond redemption
Message:
Hi Mike,
As far as cyberspace is concerned, we are all untouchables, right?
I dont believe that anyone here is a lost soul, and i don't think that you think this about yourself ;)...
Readind most of the posts around here, it looks like I AM THE LOST SOUL!
i received K. many years ago (i could almost say in a galaxy far far away...you know...the seventies!)
As far as not posting here for more than a week, you are probably right...but hey...there is still 4 days left!
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Date: Sat, Sep 19, 1998 at 05:43:30 (EDT)
From: jethro
Email: None
To: Isabelle
Subject: What, me worry?
Message:
'i own a house (just bought it last year), i own a car, i am free to watch movies (not just videos!), iam a partner in a consulting firm and i make good money. My work does require to do quite a bit of math and my brain functions quite well. (oh...i forgot...i also have a normal sex life!)! All of this, of course, is not due to 'Maharaji's grace'...actually, i think this has nothing to do with Maharaji at all...just some hard work and a little bit of luck...'

Many of those posting here were asked, no told to give all the above up(except for the money of course which should be given to prempal), they totaly trusted prempal and were shat upon. 'Giving your all' was what it was all about. Their lives have been ripped off, people have lost their lives.......

Cwrtainly there are many premies living here in the UK who live in abject poverty and still send him their money in the belief that he is their lord etc....maybe you could donate some of your wealth to them as they are totally beyond helping themselves.....hmmm maybe prem-al could them a paid hoiday in his malibu mansion

Wake up and see what you are part of.
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Date: Sun, Sep 20, 1998 at 12:55:40 (EDT)
From: Isabelle
Email: None
To: jethro
Subject: i am awake
Message:
Hi Jethro,
i could give them my 'wealth', but then it would not be tax-deductible (hey...just kidding!)
I am not wealthy, i just wanted to say to Mike that practicing Knowledge did not cause any NEW mental illness that I did not have before;) and that it did not cause any financial difficulty.
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Date: Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 21:46:40 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Inch Allah
Message:
Dear JM:

Did you know that MJ is using that expression nowadays. Ah, well--Inch Allah. He borrows a little something from everything and everyone. I say borrows because he is just a visitor like the rest of us at the Louvre.
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Date: Sat, Sep 19, 1998 at 03:27:58 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Inch Allah
Message:
I've heard him too! Remember, I left EV 1 year 1/2 ago !
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 09:51:11 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Cool!
Message:
Isn't it beautiful?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 10:14:55 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Cool!
Message:
what's the message mili?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 11:28:35 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Mili
Subject: Cool!
Message:
The fiercest critics are the people who were the most steadfast of devotees. Why did he lose so many soldiers? Why did Nero's troops turn against him in the end?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 13:20:36 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: He loves me....
Message:
Mili: Isn't it wonderful that he can call me his 'enemy' and still love me more than his devotees? What a nice guy, eh?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 18:29:54 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Mili
Subject: Cool??
Message:
Profound stupidity, more like.

This is bog-standard guru soundbyte of the kind premies picked up and passed around like good-luck charms. So much the better if they contained a hint of irony. There were many such well-loved sayings. Things like:

'People say Maharaj Ji is the Devil. All I can say to them is that if Maharaj Ji makes me feel this good , I don't care who he his...'

'People say I have been brainwashed. Maybe they should get their brains washed as well (hahahahaha)'

'The perfect master could reveal 'knowledge' instantly to the whole world in a second if he wanted to, but it is so much more beautiful for that devotee to discover Him for themselves and come in their own time.'

Anyone else remember this stuff? My God, we spouted some crap in perpetuating Rawat's pathetic vainglorious fantasy.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 20:16:54 (EDT)
From: Judith
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Cool??
Message:
This material just triggered a memory in me of a group of people at the conclusion of a new-age weekend workshop; after we had all 'come out of hiding' and 'shared' everything about ourselves and 'chosen' our new lives; immortal beings that we were: we would all hold hands and sing that John Lennon song 'oh my love, for the first time in my life, my eyes are wide open'.

It seems to me there is definitely a vulnerable part in people that really wants to believe 'we have found a new way' and everyone else would be feeling such joy too if only they knew.

This is what people like Maharaji manipulate. But one thing I don't intend to give up on is my own inner nature. That, at least, IS beautiful, I believe.
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Date: Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 10:09:52 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Judith
Subject: Cool??
Message:
Yes, you're beautiful, Judith
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Date: Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 09:52:08 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Not really
Message:
Everyone knows Guru Maharaj Ji nowadays, everywhere!

This might have been true 25 years ago, but today it just sounds like a hollow boast. Maharaji peaked in the 70s and hasn't reached the same height of fame, since. I doubt he's ever going to, again. He's what you might call a has-been, along with Moon and Maharishi. There was a time when they all competed for bragging rights, but now they're just old hats. Their only legacy is the trail of damaged lives they've left in their wake. And that's nothing to brag about.
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Date: Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 10:57:08 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Some facts about Moon
Message:
This might be slightly off-topic, but since Jerry mentioned Moon, I wanted to tell people that there's a great article about the Rev. Sun Myung Moon in the Sept. 14 issue of the New Yorker. Some facts that I found really interesting were the following:

- Moon is 78 years old and claims to have 30,000 followers in the US (most people think he actually has a few thousand, and never had more than 10,000).

- In addition to founding the Washington Times (a conservative newspaper), in 1982, and taking control of the University of Bridgeport (my mother's alma mater) in 1992, a group associated with Moon loaned Jerry Falwell's Liberty University three and a half million dollars in 1995 to save it from bankruptcy. (I find this incredible, although maybe other people here already knew about it. What a partnership...) Moon either has a lot more money than M, or he gives a lot more of it away.

- Moon is starting an utopian community in Brazil called New Hope (remind you of anyone else?).

There's a lot more, but I won't try to paraphrase it here. I do recommend that people read the article.
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Date: Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 18:15:03 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Right on!
Message:
Jerry: Right on the money! I don't think most people even know who he 'was,' much less who he 'is.' Back in the 70's, he was on tv some and he met with some DC folks, but other than that, I don't think he made much of a splash at all. The Maharishi, on the other hand, still gets a little press in rags like People Magazine.
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Date: Sat, Sep 19, 1998 at 00:22:23 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: out of order
To: Mike
Subject: Right on!
Message:
Maharishi also has Ayurvedic products on the market. They're inexpensive enough. He's got a school and so on... He also always sold his courses, pretty cheaply- was it $45 in the 70's to learn meditation? None of this 'would you jump off a cliff if M told you too' kinda stuff.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 03:04:13 (EDT)
From: RL
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Enjoying life
Message:
I haven't heard from Jim recently, perhaps he's enjoying life.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 11:26:19 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: RL
Subject: Enjoying life
Message:
So what is this? A mere premie lurker complaining that we're not all playing our parts in stoking his doubts these days? Sorry.

I'm not going to be able to post that much for the next little while. Business reasons. But I'm around. Thanks for your concern, RL.
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Date: Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 17:21:55 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: Richard@woodbank.force9.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Initiation & life path
Message:
I have few regrets about my coming into contact with the DVL.
The whole thing lasted a few months and raised searching points and involved me travelling and doing a lot of footwork physically and spiritually,
I left DVL on the advise of The Great White Brotherhood, I would like to hear from others who have a similiar exp, and argue as to wether it is all a 'dupe' from start to finish if there is a finish.
Is it spiritual envy of other groups or fear of losing ones self in a mass hype which motivated you to leave
mail me
Richard Sheffield England
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Date: Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 18:05:14 (EDT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: The Great White Brotherhood
Message:
Dear Richard,

You mean the rock band with the lead singer named Babaji?

It's not that group down south in the sheets, I hope.

DVL?
I'm confused.

eb
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Date: Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 19:49:43 (EDT)
From: Colin
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: The Great White Brotherhood
Message:
DVL or DLM ?
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Date: Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 23:56:20 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: eb
Subject: The Great White Brotherhood
Message:
Dear eb,
It's not that group down south in the sheets, I hope.
What? I am also confused about DVL but this line is bringing in the fog in my brain.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 12:26:58 (EDT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: The Great White Brotherhood
Message:
Hi Robyn,

Just a joke referencing the KKK. Actually, I heard about the Great White Brotherhood about 12 years ago from the Jamaican hooey hooey psychic. Don't quote me on this one, but I heard that the Brotherhood is a group of spiritual entities (white light) who are guiding the physical and spiritual evolution of planet earth. I think the psychic said the Jesus and Babaji were amongst the group.

Richard, please clarify!

Love to all,
eb
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 13:29:26 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: The Great White Brotherhood
Message:
Robyn: eb's description of the Great White Brotherhood is accurate, I believe. There used to be a few books about the subject. You will also hear them referred to as the order of melchizedek and, sometimes, 'earth's order of melchizedek.' The EOOM group were a rather eclectic group of people that claimed they were all 'inhabited' by a melchizedek 'spirit' or 'emergency son.' I won't dwell on the details, but I think you get the picture. One of the books that talks about these folks (melchizedek, in particular) is the Urantia Book. Huge book and VERY funny (in my opinion)!
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Date: Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 08:39:28 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mike
Subject: The Great White Brotherhood
Message:
Dear Mike, eb and all,
This is new to me thank god. There use to be KKK meetings near where I lived WAY out in the country in this area, now I just live in the country. Anyway I saw the bon fire one night, lite the sky up like day time. After I found out what was going on I would rip their meeting signs down each day that they were posted along the country roads. One even got into a fight with me about it, he saw me doing this or heard about me. He tried to tell me it was a religion, I told him he was full of shit. I am usually a scaredy cat but this shit pisses me off so bad I lost my fear. The Inattiquate White Assholes is a better and more accurate term IMHO.
Love everyone!
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 20:36:43 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Robyn
Subject: Well done, Robyn.
Message:
M might be a cheapskate, but those guys are the absolute scum of the earth. (It helps to keep things in perspective.) I'm proud to know you, I might add.
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Date: Sat, Sep 19, 1998 at 22:45:24 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: nigel
Subject: thanks nigel :) (nt)
Message:
alkdfa;
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 13:42:16 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liv.ac.uk
To: Richard
Subject: Richard II
Message:
Hi Richard,

I guess you are new to the forum. Welcome.

But please note if you're intending to stick around that we already have a regular here posting as 'Richard' - also from the UK, except he's from down south. I'm pretty sure you and he are not the same person. In which case it would be a good idea to change your name slightly, if you're intending on sticking around.
Richie? Dick? Ricardo? (not Rick, though, we've already got one of those).
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Date: Sat, Sep 19, 1998 at 05:47:41 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: rich2@globalnet.co.uk
To: Nigel
Subject: I'm only just back...
Message:
Hi Nigel,

Well I've been away for a while since losing my connecion but I just got my new kit, set up an internet account and what do I find...I'm already here?

Hi there Richard II, it's nice to here from you.

Anyway, hi to everyone. My new course is pretty hectic and I don't have much time to login here but I will do so as time allows. It's really good to know that you're all still here.

Talk to you soon.

regards

Richard
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Date: Sat, Sep 19, 1998 at 23:41:25 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Richard
Subject: I'm only just back...
Message:
Dear Richard,
Glad to hear you are reconnected! I think I remember you are teaching or going back to school to become a teacher, I think that is it. Good luck to you.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Sep 20, 1998 at 12:02:40 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Greetings, Richard the first!
Message:
I am also glad to hear you're connected again.
Take care,
Katie
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Date: Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 16:03:41 (EDT)
From: richard
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Greetings to you too !!!
Message:
Hi Katie & Robyn,

I'm connected but only just. Things are a little hectic but I intend to visit when I can. I'm having a little trouble with my email but when I get it ironed out I'll post the new address.

It's great to see so many new faces, greetings to you all, whatever your reason for visiting.

regards

Richard
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 21:17:21 (EDT)
From: Judith
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Uncovering childhood trauma
Message:
Before I lose my nerve, I want to share that I have been contacting my deep dark pain, which was childhood abuse by a parent (emotional sadism).

I have noticed that my relationship with Maharaji seems to have disappeared in these few months as though it was never there. I see it was never real.

I ended up feeling more alone than before I sought 'knowledge' as a last-ditch attempt to make myself perfect. I see now this is not possible and I don't have to earn the right to be alive by being perfect (whatever that is).

Now through therapy and the help of friends I can trust, I am moving through the real pain and issues, and no longer hiding in knowledge.

But it is not easy and I want to offer encouragement to anyone else who is feeling their pain. And I want to say therapy really does help.
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 22:25:22 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Judith
Subject: Uncovering childhood trauma
Message:
Dear Judith,
Hi, I have not been in touch with you in so long but I do read your posts when I stop in here and I just wanted to give you my support in your efforts to get to the root of your pain. I have spent much of my life in this pursuit and it is hard to see progress in the present but looking back 10 or 20 years and I see great leaps of change. It is hard and very often painful but well worth your efforts. Good luck.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 01:05:54 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: coopmtncarol@hotmail.com
To: Robyn and Judith
Subject: Ditto on what Robyn said!
Message:
I really am not here much recently either. Bravo, Judith!

I saw Simon Birch (a movie) today and loved it!!!The two main characters were playing 13 year olds in 1964...I was 13 in 1964, too. it's based on the book: A prayer for Owen Meany. I liked it as well as Forest Gump!
Carol
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 20:51:48 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Just harmless idiots, to him
Message:
I think Amaroo has been a big con trick by Maharaji. He's got all the premies to devote all their selfless service and money to developing the Amaroo site so that he can turn it into a money spinner by renting it out to businesses and other organisations with money. Click on the link below to see what Keith says:


Keith's Amaroo post


Maharaji just sees the premies as suckers. To him they're harmless idiots who don't have the worldly wisdom to see through his dubious shenanigans.
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Date: Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 07:13:18 (EDT)
From: Sir D
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Sir David
Subject: But not you, Keith
Message:
Keith; I wasn't implying that YOU were a harmless idiot, by the way. I linked to your post because you have illustrated very well, the doubts that premies must face and come to terms with.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 13:36:30 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: I'm impressed...
Message:
Sir: I'm impressed by Keith's clarity when it came to asking those questions. Those are the most coherent sentences I've seen him write. I'm NOT trying to be insulting, either. I was really impressed.

Keith: Why don't you do that (clearly speak your mind) here? I think you would be surprised by the results if you did. (IMHO) Again, no insult intended, AT ALL! Those were some good questions and they deserved to be asked...
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 12:20:18 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: BM's most brilliant quotes
Message:
Some of the most brilliant quotes of Prempal Rawat HIMSELF!

Everyting you need to know about the Ashram, Marriage, Materialism and woldly love!

'For whom do you recommend ashram life ? Everybody, of course. For human beings, not chimpanzees.

Not even a leaf moves a millimetre without my wish.

Let's keep it that way - brother and sister. I mean, why does it have to become in any way physical ?

In this world there is no peace, no harmony, no love. Why not ? Because the whole world does not exist.'

And much more ....
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 13:28:05 (EDT)
From: Don't you
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: love those quotes? (nt)
Message:
Do you?
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 14:01:36 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: You've done it again...
Message:
JM: You are simply amazing! You've done it, again! I had totally forgotten about these and their source. So much for the 'GMJ never said he was god' rebuttals (among many others):

'Not even a leaf moves a millimetre without my wish.'

How much clearer does it need to be??????? If ANYONE can read that statement and interpret it otherwise, well, how can I say it without offending someone.... YOU ARE THE STUPIDEST HUMAN BEING THAT EVER 'GRACED' THIS PLANET.... How's that? Hope I didn't offend any premieji's out there!
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 01:06:11 (EDT)
From: RL
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Old fool
Message:
Isn't J-M the same fool who gave us the 'secret VIP meeting about the female master'?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 10:50:14 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: RL
Subject: A Fool
Message:
RL: I'm not sure about that one, but these are QUOTES from M's own mouth and others. You are barking up the wrong tree here! If you are trying to say that M didn't say these things, then you are blind AND deaf.
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 18:38:01 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: marriage question
Message:
I took a look at the marriage questions and found this:

'Q: Guru Maharaj Ji, do you have any advice for people who are getting married and now they should live in the Knowledge ?

Ans: There are two things: premies that have not moved into an Ashram and don't have any intention to move into an Ashram, and want to get married, they live a life; they do some business where they work; and they have a job, work outside. They do Meditation. For them the advice is, just go ahead and get married, do Meditation, and live happily.'
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 21:03:57 (EDT)
From: Sir D
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: CD
Subject: marriage question
Message:
He said that in one of his mild phases. In other more severe phases he has condemned premies for even having relationships and has said that everyone should move into an ashram who is not married. And he also has said that an unmarried person who wasn't in the ashram, should move into an ashram.

Have you forgotten his infamous heavy satsang at Hansjayanti, Orlando in (I think) 1978? He got really heavy about premies 'getting into a sex trip' as he called it. It was despicable and all the more so because he was being totally hypocritical.
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 21:27:14 (EDT)
From: Judith
Email: None
To: Sir D
Subject: marriage question
Message:
Sounds like Maharaji's been dealing with his own sexual hangups all along, doesn't it. How do we choose our leaders, people. Who do we follow.

One of the most useful things about the Clinton 'scandal' is probably to acknowledge people's sexuality. It's probably like if the Queen was caught masturbating. Eh???!!!
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 21:49:58 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Judith
Subject: marriage question
Message:
Don't be silly Judith, the queen masturbating, the very idea.

Yet her relationship with her corgis has always looked suspicious to me. Just too intimate.
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 21:56:56 (EDT)
From: Sir D
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Judith
Subject: marriage question
Message:
The Queen masturbating? Go and wash your mouth out with soap and water, immediately! Someone once dared to suggest that the Queen goes to the toilet, like the rest of us. Of course, I didn't believe such a preposterous notion.

By the way, in the heavy satsang I mentioned above, Maharaji actually had the gall to call us hypocrites. And yes, I'll be in touch.
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Date: Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 03:57:18 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Sir D
Subject: Orlando's quotes
Message:
I think I still own them. I'll check and find those quotes!
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Date: Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 06:22:36 (EDT)
From: Is Prempal really
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: THE Almighty one?
Message:
Given the belief that

'not even a leaf moves without Maharaji's will'

where does my Internet mess (EV's Indian Background website) fits?

Can any premie answer to that one?

I guess I have to be a part of his Lila, or that he has NO power at all.

Prempal? are you still there?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 01:13:01 (EDT)
From: RL
Email: None
To: Is J-M
Subject: THE Almighty one?
Message:
He was talking about leaves, not websites.
RL
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 03:23:11 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: RL
Subject: THE Almighty one?
Message:
Oh yeah ..... my wierd imagination again!

He is the wind that blows in the trees
the waves that crash on the sand
.....

nothing else.
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 04:41:18 (EDT)
From: Chuck
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Knowledge and sex
Message:
Thank you for the responses to my first message 2 weeks ago. I have never liked all the concepts of premies about Knowledge and can see how they can be harmful. I was best friends with a female premie (Sherry) and we talked a lot. People said that M wanted all debt-free and unmarried premies in the ashram. Sherry was upset because she wanted to be a good premie but she did not want to give up sex. I told her that regardless of what anyone said, it would not benefit me to have premies tell me what to do and feed me all their concepts and have me work a job, then do service and wake up 5 in the morning and be too tired to meditate.

She disagreed. Then she went out with a premie and had better sex than ever before (mindblowing sex). That was it. She figured that if M was tring to keep her from this, she wanted no part of him. They quit Knowledge and got married. 20 years later they are still married.

Then people said M said only sick people should be in the ashram (emotionally messed up) and when better, they should leave. Then the ashrams closed down and many residents got married. I felt that sex had no effect on practicing Knowedge and without videos of M, I have no idea what he was saying about it. It was a thought or concept that caused her to quit Knowledge and give up her nice experience of it.

With practice a person can reach a place beyond thoughts, time and space. In that place there is no Maharaji and no premies, just the experience that everyone wants but few people find. In that place or even in that direction all emotional problems are being healed at a very fast speed.
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 06:01:24 (EDT)
From: Chuck
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Knowledge and sex
Message:
Jim said that it is strange for a 42 year old to feel about Titanic the way I do and the teenage girls will grow up and feel differently. I agree. Titanic is not in the 2 categories of fiction and non-ficion. It is pure fiction (fantasy) within pure fact. Titanic was a catastrophe but the movie begins by showing that it does not matter if everyone on it dies and if everyone on the planet dies tomorrow. Why? The movie is really about Rose. It ends by showing a dream she is having in 1997. Rose is miserable and wants to jump off and die, thereby making it so no one else exits for her. Why even be alive if you are not happy. To be or not to be. Jack gives her a reason to live- he teaches her how to spit. She must choose either wealth,respect of peers and being miserable or her own happiness (self-centered, egotistical and selfish). She chooses happiness. Her mother says that this will cause the mother to be a poor seamstress instead of a rich lady. Rose chooses wealth, family and self misery. Jack warns her not to abandon her bliss. She says get lost. She sees a little girl being turned into a soul-less, obedient robot and changes her mind and runs to Jack. He teaches her to fly and feel free. She abandons everything and chooses love and happiness. She eventually rides a horse on the pier Jack told her about and flys a plane.

The movie is over but as long as you are alive, you always have that choice to make in your life. I have grown up and take responsibilty for my actions and do not blame anyone else. M has never forced anyone to do anything except for his kids to go to school before he got the at home teachers. When Rose jumped out of the lifeboat against Jack's advice, she was choosing to make love a priority over survival. Would you mind me putting a bit (metal bar) in your mouth connected to a rope and letting me ride you???? No one forced Superman (Christopher Reeves) to do this to an animal which caused him to be paralysed from the neck down, never to be able to experience the pleasure that Monica Lewinsky has to offer. Jesus did not say as M and others sow, so shall you reap. He said as you sow, so shall you reap.
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 08:49:25 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liv.ac.uk
To: Chuck
Subject: time and space? - c'mon...
Message:
With practice a person can reach a place beyond thoughts, time and space.

Chuck:

Is this your experience? I mean. really your experience?

I can confirm that if you keep still long enough, cognitive arousal subsides and your thoughts become less insistent, as do physical desires - for a little while, at least. You don't need 'Knowledge' for this (in fact, I don't believe 'Knowledge' even exists). All you need to do is relax and fight off the urge to get up and be doing something. That's all. Then, if you practice telling yourself 'I am now having a cosmic experience', you can start to believe it for a while, and that little emotional buzz of belief will get mixed up with the white noise of your idling brain to generate an experience of sorts. Fairly relaxing, but ultimately dead boring.

But what - if you're not just parroting some mystical gubbins at us - is going 'beyond time and space' all about? And how would you know it wasn't an illusion, a delusion, or a hallucination?

Just curious...
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 19:40:42 (EDT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: time and space? - c'mon...
Message:
Nigel , you seem to be describing a passive , non-active , relaxed (perhaps) state , which should not be confused with a dynamic state of attentive receptivity . I have experienced the latter state many times and can declare that there is such a state of being and consciousness that is qualitatively superior to what you are describing . But let me add , that I am not suggesting that this superior state is dependent on practicing knowledge . Knowledge is just one way . Whatever doesn't work , discard it . Whatever works , make it your own .
It is not about telling oneself 'I am having a cosmic experience '. It is about realising human potential .
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 06:38:36 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: fitzroy@liv.ac.uk
To: Keith
Subject: Me? - confused?
Message:
Nigel , you seem to be describing a passive , non-active , relaxed (perhaps)state , which should not be confused with a dynamic state of attentive receptivity

Well, I'll admit to being a little confused by your post, at least. I was challenging Chuck about his claim to go 'beyond time and space' (and if I could do that, I don't think I'd bother going to see the Titanic every weekend).

I am confused by what a 'dynamic state of attentive passivity' might be, when it's at home.

'Dynamic' is a funny word. People sometimes use it to mean 'powerful', or sometimes 'adaptable' or 'flexible'; shrinks use it as a noun to describe imaginary mind mechanisms. Recruitment adverts use 'dynamic' a lot when they are looking for someone who will do they're told without waiting to be told, etc.

But in the context of meditation, I don't see any of these uses as being valid. Leave out the 'dynamic', however, and your state of 'attentive receptivity' sounds pretty much the same as what I called relaxation. I watch TV in a state of 'passive relaxation' which is also a state of attentive receptivity. Chuck watches Titanic in a state of attentive receptivity. People being (or, rather, pretending to be) hypnotised do so in a state of attentive receptivity, etc. No special 'state' is, in fact, involved. The old claims about meditation lowering the body's metabolic rate to below those of even sleep have all be falsified.
In fact, everything about meditation is perfectly ordinary.
The vital dimensions required to give it special status in religious practices seem, to me at least, to be belief and emotion which are both, of course, perfectly ordinary phenomena.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 14:24:07 (EDT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Me? - confused?
Message:
Nigel , I refer you to the latest posts on M.M.T especially between Jerry and myself . And I would prefer to discuss these matters on M.M.T if you wouldn't mind .
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 17:53:52 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Me? - confused?
Message:
I'll stay here, thanks. My original reply was to Chuck, and I'm still interested in what makes people who meditate so sure that there is some quality about their experience that places it outside of time and space; about what, in fact, makes it 'infinite' - which is CD's favourite reference point. If you don't want to join in this thread any further, so be it. But others might.

I mean no disrespect to Gerry or MMT, here, but forum III is specifically for and about people who were (and maybe still are) persuaded that meditation held the keys to eternal liberation. MMT has a more general focus. Much of the debate here will inevitably be about the guy who sold us the whole dodgy package in the first place, but it was the alleged meditation experience that provided the carrot on the stick that got many of us involved. Certainly true in my case.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 20:41:48 (EDT)
From: Judith
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Me? - confused?
Message:
Much of the debate here will inevitably be about the guy who sold us the whole dodgy package in the first place, but it
was the alleged meditation experience that provided the
carrot on the stick that got many of us involved.


Yes like that Cat Stevens song I grew up on 'There's a way and I know that I have to go away'

One of the motivations in my life I now see, was the resolution that my life was NEVER going to be as painful as that of my parents. As they and we the children got older, it seemed to me they lived lives of abject misery. (and we had a Mercedes).

Was it because they hadn't 'found a way'? Or maybe it was all subjective, and I was the one in misery.
Anyone offering a key to solve all your problems in one fell swoop (oh of course - we have to get enlightened) has a pretty powerful 'charm' to sell. It's a huge betrayal but a big step in growing up, that it doesn't work that way, IMO.
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Date: Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 19:06:47 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Judith
Subject: The cat shat on my hat
Message:
That Cat Stevens line rang a lot of bells for me, Judith. I too sort of felt that pop/rock/folk lyrics carried hidden clues to what it was all about.

Before he joined Rushdie's persecutors, I remember, Cat Stevens did four albums, 'tea for the tillerman','teaser and the firecat','buddha and the chocolate box' and 'catch bull at four'. Each one was a bit more mystical than the one before, with increasingly obscure, mystical-sounding lyrics. I was also into Donovan (blush) around that time, the Incredible String Band and Van Morrison (who is, of course, STILL GOD - and the only one of them I still listen too).

The less sense the lyrics contained, the more meaningful they became. Then punk rock came around, just in time, and I came back to the real world for a bit, but the damage had been done by now. Perhaps it was that autobiography of Yogananda I read, or maybe the mushrooms had something to do with it, but somebody gave me satsang and the next five years went down the pan.
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Date: Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 19:19:04 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The cat shat on my hat
Message:
Geez, Nigel, our stories are similar! I, too, thought that Cat Stevens' records were full of truth. The guy who got me into DLM claimed that all the songs were about M! Donovan, yeah, Incredible String Band, yeah, but Van Morrison still counts. Thank God for the Ramones, Sex Pistols, Buzzcocks, and 999!
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Date: Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 19:48:31 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redrow.demon.co.uk
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Gabba Gabba Hey!
Message:
In the mid-eighties, I was simultaneously trying to get back into 'Knowledge' and out of it once and for all. (I desperately needed to go to satsang, but it didn't exist any more, so I drove five hunded miles to find a practising premie to talk to. I mean that desperate. My wife wasn't very impressed, I might add). I went to see M in Birmingham (it's in my journeys entry), and he'd somehow fizzled away from being Lord of the Universe into nothing in particular. This transformation left me simultaneously liberated and bereft - if that makes any kind of sense - like there's no home to go back to. Finally it's time to grow up.

Records that helped through that very strange period:

Talking Heads: 'Road to Nowhere' (and the Little Creatures album)
Pete Gabriel & Kate Bush: 'Don't Give Up'
Blowzabella: 'The Blowzabella Wall of Sound'
The Ramones: 'Crummy Stuff'.

This last little gem you should play very loud and shout along to:

I've had enough,
I've had it rough
I've had enough
Of that crummy stuff,
I've had enough
I've had it rough
I've had enough
Of that crummy stuff,

(chorus:)

Crummy, crummy, crummy, crummy
Crummy, crummy, crummy, crummy
Crummy, crummy, crummy, crummy
Crummy stuff
Crummy, crummy, crummy, crummy
Crummy, crummy, crummy, crummy
Crummy, crummy, crummy, crummy
Crummy stuff.


An ex-premie anthem, perhaps?
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Date: Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 22:53:34 (EDT)
From: Judith
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The cat shat on my hat
Message:
Then what happened?

Go on, I like your story so far!
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 12:12:21 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Chuck
Subject: How did you do it?
Message:
Chuck: I have the same basic question as Nigel. In reference to your inference that you have been beyond 'time and space': I will assume, for the moment, that YOU really did experience something. How did it 'come' to you? Was it in meditation or was it chemically induced, or what? Are you absolutely convinced (do you KNOW) that it was 'real?' I, too, am interested.
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Date: Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 00:21:25 (EDT)
From: Chuck
Email: None
To: Nigel,Keith,Mike
Subject: How did you do it ?
Message:
The people entering the olympics are gifted yet they practice 8 hours a day because it is important to them. With drugs, it just takes a few minutes to experince an altered state of consciousness. It took me lots of practice (hours per day) for many years. What is important is doing it enough so you can see it going someplace. Thank you for the interest. I was refering to my own personal experience. Major religions talk about a soul or spirit (or energy). Not being in the physical world, where is it? How old is it? Everything is measured by the physical world so what is the weight, location, size, color, shape and age of the soul. None of them apply to the non-physical world. Are you a piece of meat with ears, nose, blood, guts and penis (or vagina) that ends up as magat food or something else?

The first step is removing your attention from the world (closing 5 senses) but how much time is required. Answer- More time than you have or are willing to put into it. I bet some people spend more time on the internet than the 8 hours per day that Olympians spend on training. The reason there is no perception of time is because there is total satisfaction and contentment (and you have no attention on anything that measures time). No desire, no boredom, no more urge to find happiness because you found it so you just enjoy it. The part of you that can experience this is not in the physical world.
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Date: Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 02:02:35 (EDT)
From: Chuck
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: How did you do it ?
Message:
I know people who have been in the U.S. for 20 years with heavy accents and not fluent in English. They speak it, but most of their friends speak their native language. So how much time of practising English does it take to be fluent in it? The foreigner might ask you 'how you get so good at speaky English.'

In that place beyond time there is perfect peace, total love and every good feeling that you could want. It is the natural state but people have become very unnatural. First stop for one minute and knowing that different strokes for different folks and some want chocolate and some want vanilla and some love dogs and some love cats and some love snakes, why would almost everyone want peace, love and happiness?

President Clinton is now famous for what he did to pursue the above and the 'pursuit of happiness' is a constitutional right.

Could it be because it is the nature of our true selves? For me everything is clear and simple, the more I practice Knowledge, the more I can experience this state. Maybe for the master meditators it is different but I very rarely experience this in the first hour of meditation. It is much more likely to occur for a few minutes in my third hour of meditation. Maybe for Flash it is different, but it takes me a while to go very deep.

I think, Nigel, that the best cure for brain disease is to do (under supervision) what Jesus and Moses did for 40 days and the thing you do not want to do. Arnold Ehret used it to cure blindness and deafness (certain cases) but it most easily cured insanity. Giving up for a while what most women polled would rather do than sex. Done by Socrates, Plato, Pythagarus, Mark Twain, Leo Tolstoy, Dolly Parton, Mahatma Gandhi, Vidal Sasoon, Buddha, Mohammed and the bible has 74 references to it. Fasting.

An M.D. who is a professor at Harvard Medical school wrote a best selling book (Relaxation Response) based on research at a Harvard lab and a Boston hospital. The cause of 95% of high blood pressure is unknown. He beleives it is stress. It takes 5 hours of sleep for metabolism to gradually drop 8% then continues at this level till they wake up. After 10 minutes of several types of meditation tested, the metabolism drops by 15% and continues till end of meditation creating a unique physiological state not produced by anything else. If you, Nigel, disagree, argue with him. Tell him you are brain-damaged and have done no research. Also a certain substance in blood when injected into people with anxiety problems causes 100% to have panic attacks and 20% of normal people to get anxiety attacks. Meditation significantly reduces this substance in blood. People have tried to reduce stress by making life easier with increases in technology but the average blood pressure is higher than ever.

I see (me speaking) lots of stessed out people who are on the verge of violence. So many postal employees have killed bunches of fellow workers that if you get mad, it is called going postal. Even on this Forum there is evidence of stress. Practicing Knowledge makes me extremely tranquil. My experience is that a 4 hour meditation is ten times (10x) as good as a 2 hour meditation. A 1 hour meditation is like teasing me about peace. This is not according to Maharaji but according to me. He says a maximum of 1 hour per day. Just kidding. He says a minimum of 1 hour per day. By the way some people will experience only 5 minutes once in their life of the experience beyond time and become gurus or write best selling books about it. Every minute after those 5 minutes, their egos grow at an accelerated rate. I think most Americans overeat and undersleep and the two of them do not go together well (like certain drugs and alcohol).
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 19:32:04 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Chuck
Subject: Knowledge and sex
Message:
Thanks for that, Chuck. I would say that living in an ashram or trying to follow Maharaji's up hill and down dale dictates can make a person emotionally messed up. Certainly that was the case for me.

Regarding meditation. I'm having a problem with this at the moment due to a brain disease which I suffer from. It causes inflamation of the brain. At the moment after I've meditated I suffer dizziness and pains in my head. So I've had to give that a rest for the time being until I get my head examined.

Chris Dickey (CD) thinks I'm losing my marbles but I tell you something, I haven't even BEGUN yet in my anti Maharaji campaign. I intend to tell the world just what a lying, hypocritical bastard he really is.
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Date: Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 08:33:59 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Knowledge and sex
Message:
Dear David,
Was it the brain swelling that made you think the light technique was harmful? Do you still think it was doing light that caused this problem?
You have to many problems for such a sweet man. So sorry to hear you are in a down time but as you said you get a lot of love and caring here.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 09:03:29 (EDT)
From: Sir D
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Robyn
Subject: Need my head examined
Message:
Yes Robyn. I have Myalgic Encephelomyalytis. One of the symptoms is inflammation of the brain. Recently I've been getting worse problems with this and that could be why the light technique caused those problems. I'm not certain since I never tried doing light much before.

ONe of the symptoms of ME is that the brain becomes acutely sensitive to any changes in chemistry. The nerves also become this sensitive. I aim to get to see some specialists in the ME field but the problem is, I have to be well enough to get to the hospital, which is some way away. It's a catch 22 situation but I'll beat it in the end. Thanks for your kind words. I cannot do more than give you a nice virtual bear hug. Perhaps you're lucky it's only virtual eh? No but you'd get the real thing (bear hug wise) if I could beam over to America.
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Date: Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 10:57:25 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Sir D
Subject: Need my head examined
Message:
Dear Sir,
Virtual hugs are good, thanks, but real bear hugs are always better!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 13:43:19 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Mine's being examined....
Message:
Robyn: You REALLY WANT to be hugged by a bear??????? I hear that can be pretty rough.... he he he :-)
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Date: Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 04:49:20 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: I've been hugged by a bear
Message:
A real one, 30 years ago in Turkey.

I'm still alive because I had some sugar pieces left in my back
pocket.
Can you believe it?

I'm not kidding, a real one.
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Date: Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 14:00:33 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: You've GOT to be lucky (nt)
Message:
-nt
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 03:49:21 (EDT)
From: Chuck
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Knowledge and sex
Message:
I read the responses to my message from 2 weeks ago (Knowledge) and I typed a response but when I went to submit it, the computer said that the program performed an illegal operation and would be shut down so it was lost. I don't have the time to retype it now. Does anyone know if this is due to my error or my friend's computer or due to the internet connection?
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Date: Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 20:57:24 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Chuck
Subject: To Chuck (and Brian)
Message:
Hi Chuck -
Regarding the error message that you got ('Illegal operation, will be shut down'), I would suspect that it had something to do with the internet access software you were using (Netscape or IE), or perhaps an interaction between that software and your friend's computer (we have found that IE plus Windows 3.1 is NOT a good combination). I really don't know much about this stuff, though, which is why I've put Brian's name in the title of this post. He can often give you some idea of what the problem is.

Sorry that you lost your post!
Katie
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 03:34:08 (EDT)
From: Looking for a copy of the
Email: jmkahn@hol.fr
To: Everyone
Subject: old Ashram manuel!
Message:
Anybody still owns one?

I'd love to have it online on my EV's Indian Background website, I think it could be very
useful for some exes ....

Jean-Michel
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Date: Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 07:27:52 (EDT)
From: Sir D
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Looking for a copy of the
Subject: old Ashram manual!
Message:
I remember it well. When working 'in the world' you were forbidden from engaging in idle chatter and were supposed to keep quiet by doing the nectar technique. Then when you ever did open your mouth to speak, you were supposed to give only satsang to these ignorant people of the world. Often when premies tried this, they were stopped short by Maharaji's grace coming in the form of a a swift punch in the mouth from a fellow employee.
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Date: Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 12:31:42 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Sir D
Subject: 2 versions/old Ashram manual!
Message:
It looks like m had 2 versions of it.
I'm already on the track of one copy, please email me
if you know anybody still owning one!
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Date: Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 19:35:33 (EDT)
From: Sir D
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: 2 versions/old Ashram manual!
Message:
The ashram manual I'm thinking about was published in 1973. And it may have only been used in Britain. I believe Mahatma Ashokanand Ji was responsible for much of its content which was also approved by Maharaji.
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Date: Mon, Sep 14, 1998 at 07:31:58 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Everyone
Subject: My reply to Chris Dickey
Message:
Chris Dickey wrote to me on the premie forum:
'You sure put a sleazy and vile post on the ex-forum today. Unless you really are a true schizo, your credibility as the creator and controller of this forum is now about zero. Sorry to have to say this. But you seem to have lost your marbles lately. You have become a ranter. I used to consider you a reasonable person but you are providing plenty of on-line evidence to destroy that image. What you wrote today is just slander without any consideration of what Maharaji has really taught many over the years. I for one have had a lot of benefit and inspiration from his message. I understand that you have had a completely different experience and have taken on the role to try and destroy the possiblity of other people having the chance to experience for themselves what he has to offer. I wish you no luck in this effort. CD'

Here is my reply:
I have suffered long term psychological problems due to being in Maharaji's cult. I never experienced these problems before I came to the cult. Even now, I am riddled with sexual guilt due to all the anti-sex programming which I received at the hands of Maharaji. I have suffered for many long years with this. At one point, I even tried to get help from Elan Vital but no help was given.

The Maharaji cult has damaged me. I cannot deny that or pretend otherwise. I have been unable to maintain a proper long term relationship because of the sexual guilt which I endure. All of this sexual guilt is only due to many years being told that sex was a bad thing. I was told this by premies and of course, by Maharaji himself. Naturally I am very angry at how the cult has affected my life in this way.

Regarding the premie forum. I wash my hands of it. If someone else wants to take it over, I will give them the passwords.
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Date: Mon, Sep 14, 1998 at 10:06:19 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@hol.fr
To: Sir David
Subject: Great quotes on sex from M!
Message:
I do have quite a lot of them.
I think I'll have them online on my website as soon as possible.

Does anybody still have a copy of the old ashram manual?
I'd like to have it online too.
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Date: Mon, Sep 14, 1998 at 18:03:50 (EDT)
From: x
Email: None
To: everybody
Subject: Destructive Negative Cult
Message:
I agree with you Sir David. Rawatts cult has been destructive to my life also. After listening to several premies,including my mother, and viewing a few vids of ol' chubbo himself, I came to a painful revelation regarding my view of life.

I consider myself a very cynical, jaded, and depressed example of humanity. I am constantly catching myself thinking negative depressing thoughts. Some people find me hard to be around because of this.

What I realized, was that I, as an impressionable child, was fed Rawatts depressing satsangs to my great detriment. After listening to what he was saying, I realized that the core of his message is that the world is a dark and terrible place, and that life,(without knowledge), is a miserable experience filled with suffering and anguish. He also talks about how pointles and stupid peoples lives are who havent been 'saved' by knowledge.

This toxic bullshit really screwed me up, especially since I thought Rawatt was full of shit and just a hustler. Now I realize that what sunk in to me from being innundated with all the satsang bullshit is just that life sucks, and I'm having a hard time changing to an optimistic hopeful person.

So, in summing up. Rawatt may have helped many dysfunctional, emotionally screwed up people, like CD, my mother, etc., but he also did a lot of damage to a lot of innocent people too. All in the pursuit of personal wealth and greed. All Rawatt cares about is the bottom line, money. What a callous asshole.
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 15:56:10 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Well said, x!!!!
Message:
x: Very well said, indeed. Why does anyone need a 'painless' life? What is so awful about life, as it is right now? I think if life were 'perfect' (by our concept of perfection), it would be absolutely boring. Everybody wandering around with stupid grins on their faces, etc. Yeccchhh! Add a little 'struggle' to the mix and it gets interesting. YES, I sure would like a little less pain in the world, but if there were NO 'pain,' would we really appreciate the good times? Personally, I think not.

- To me, K promised a world that was prozac-like: No 'lows,' but by the same token no real 'highs,' either. I like the highs, thank you. So I'm willing to have some lows, too. I seem to remember a movie from my younger days that was called, 'Wild in the Streets,' I think. It was a story about 15 year-old children being in charge of the world and everyone was free to use whatever drug they chose, etc, etc. All of the 'old' people were put on drugs and everyone walked around in this lala land with a stupid, mindless, brainless grin on their faces. It was a weird flick, but everytime I think about a 'perfect' world, that is the picture that comes to mind. It's probably totally off-the-beam, but I can't help but think of it that way.

- M thinks the world sucks, huh? My life is pointless, huh? Gimme a break! Wasting time looking for a non-existent perfect world is pointless. Wasting time wishing-away the 'pain' is pointless. Taking positive steps in the eternal 'struggle' to lessen pain, is NOT pointless and spices-up life (especially when you succeed). If he thinks it's so bad, why doesn't HE use some of his millions to help make it better. Uh, oh..... I'm talking about redistribution of wealth.... and I'm on the redistribution side of the argument!!!!! Damn...... he he he.

- x, give yourself a break. You are a NORMAL human being with NORMAL needs and NORMAL feelings (as far as I see). You don't have to 'think' happy thoughts all of the time. Depressing thoughts are normal, too. Just try not to dwell on them, too much. It really isn't that bad here on planet earth! (It could certainly be better, but it ain't THAT bad). IMHO
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 21:55:16 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Well said, x!!!!
Message:
>- M thinks the world sucks, huh? My life is pointless, huh?
> Gimme a break!

What is M?
A doll that you use as a puppet to score points for your hypno-retro philosophy astro man.
Redistribution of wealth you proclaim. Oh yeah, thats a great answer for a semi-scientist. Something seems to be lacking in the college education systems coverage of topics of importance. But maybe you could rig a network to spit out some coins.

> It really isn't that bad here on planet earth!

You are right to say that planet earth has a lot to offer us. Maybe the Martian Chronicles will remain just a story. Ah, but there is more to study concerning Saturn today. And there will be new theories about the end of the universe in due course.
Imagination is beautiful but it is not our soul.
Sometimes our thoughts do cloud the beauty of our reality.

>Taking positive steps in the eternal 'struggle' to lessen pain, is NOT pointless and spices-up life (especially when you succeed).

Nice point!
You're an OK guy after all.

CD
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 23:03:43 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: An aging Hummel perhaps?
Message:
CD:

A doll that you use as a puppet to score points for your hypno-retro philosophy astro man.

Hypno-retro to you, possibly... but there is nothing at all atypical in Mike's ideology, except in the sense that the US itself is atypical. There is nothing in it that would be offensive to Madison, Jefferson, or Adams. Call that 'retro' if you like, but to me it looks more like a tree that has deep roots.

M is, in fact, a sort of caricature, by his own design. You and I had a dialog going at one point in the past, concerning the 'character' of M. I'm quite willing for him to be something other than a caricature, but he'd first he'd have to explain why he exhibits so few qualities of character.

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 14:05:15 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Well said, x!!!!
Message:
CD: You obviously hadn't seen my posts concerning how I feel about redistribution of wealth. I was being very facitious in the post above. I DO feel, however, since he got a large portion of money from me, that ALL of THAT money should be given to a charity of my choice. I'm NO LONGER a member of the 'I Love M Club.' His total waste of the assets that I sent him is a disgrace. Jeez, I wish I had sent that money (and my effort, for that matter) to the united way campaign or some other worthwhile entity.

- As for your attempt to insult my education and standing within the astrophysical/scientific community, well.... whatever.

- Actually, there is something more 'surrounding' Jupiter that is now being studied. It wasn't Saturn, sorry. Would you like a FULL description of their progress and the people that are involved with the project??? I didn't think so (it would be too 'scientific').

- What makes you think that you aren't 'imagining' your soul? Have you SEEN it lately? I'm pretty sure that the answer to that question will be 'NO'.

- In reference to your personal comment about me (nice guy): Yeah I'm really just a nice, soft, cuddly teddy bear.... BTW, have you seen the fangs and claws on a bear? he he he. :-)
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 15:46:26 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Well said, x!!!!
Message:
>- Actually, there is something more 'surrounding' Jupiter that is now being studied. It wasn't Saturn, sorry. Would you like a FULL description of their progress and the people that are involved with the project???

Sure.
Send me an email. I don't want to clutter up the forum with too much non anti-Maharaji stuff.

I built some radios with triodes way back and a Fender Dual Showman from the schematic in 10th grade. Way back in 8th grade I attempted a simple adding machine using dual triode flip-flops and a delay line but I didn't have my electronics down good enough at the time to pull it off. The guy who won the science fair did a simple decision tree with relays. Pissed me off - g.

Whats are some good books without being a Phd in astro on black holes and quarks?

CD
webmaster@cdickey.com
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 17:19:07 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Why, I'm surprised...
Message:
CD: Pleasantly surprised, I might add. I'll get with you soon. Like you said, it has the potential of becoming a REALLY HUGE thread if we get into the specifics of the new discoveries on Jupiter. I'm not involved (directly) in that project, I just know some of the folks that are. I'm working with cepheids (variable stars) and a small dilemma with them, in my 'spare' time. Again, I'll email you. I've got the address from your last post. I'll point you to some good books on the other subjects that you asked about, as well. Let me know where you think you are, in terms of knowledge level concerning these subjects, and I can give you a series of books to read. :-)
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Date: Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 22:19:16 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: x
Subject: I couldn't agree more, x
Message:
I understand and sympathise completely. I was fed the bullshit from the age of 19 and it affected me but if you were fed it from an even earlier age, it could be more damaging. I have discovered one or two therapies which can help reverse the effect quite considerably and I will put all this on my web site soon. I'll mention this on this forum again when the stuff is on the web site. But x, you can repeat what you've said at the end many times over here. It's true and people need to be warned. Please keep in touch and email me if you want to.
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Date: Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 19:48:54 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Destructive Negative Cult
Message:
You said it! As for your demeanor, why not try the Pollyanna approach for awhile? Sometimes when you try shifting 180 degrees, you end up in the middle. NOTE: I DID NOT SAY THE MIDDLE PATH!

I think you are doing very well. Remember, you were exposed to this trash before you even hit puberty.

Maybe a big committment would help (another person, career, education, volunteer work, whatever).

I'm cheering for you, X.
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Date: Mon, Sep 14, 1998 at 18:26:33 (EDT)
From: Judith
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: My reply to Chris Dickey
Message:
Sir David
I have sent you an e-mail. It seems to me the point of this Forum is for us to help one another recover from this cult. If pain comes to the surface then at least you have a chance to resolve it or at least feel it. If pushed away it just comes back another day (but that's ok too).
But I just want to say you don't have to leave whatever variety of pain it is you are feeling. It's all connected to the big God/parental number Maharaji did on us all.
David if you hang in here you stay in touch with other people who have similarities to you. You don't have to dump us or the Forum. I hope you stick around, even if you don't feel like it.
Judith
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 08:41:55 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Judith
Subject: My reply to Chris Dickey
Message:
Judith:

I think you misunderstood David. I don't think he intends to leave the ex-premie forum, but to cease managing the premie forum. That makes sense to me. Having started it, it would seem more appropriate if it were managed by a premie. Of course, it probably won't last very long under their tutelage. They don't seem able to maintain this sort of dialogue very long. But, perhaps I am misunderstanding David?

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Sep 14, 1998 at 19:04:31 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: My reply to Sir David
Message:
Sir,

I tried to write something about Chris' post this afternoon, but couldn't get onto this forum to do so.

I don't see you as a schitzo. I think it is natural to express different emotions after what you have been through. Getting righteous anger off of your chest is normal and healthy. Of course Chris is still deluded, so he doesn't understand having these kind of feelings.

Anyway, for what it is worth, I think you are a kind sensitive person who was hurt and betrayed. I think you have a great sense of humor and a unique perspective on life.

Get angry if you want to. You don't have to answer to Chris or play by his rules.

VP
Rants when necessary
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Date: Mon, Sep 14, 1998 at 22:05:18 (EDT)
From: david m
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: My reply to Sir David
Message:
Hey Man
Ive been going thru crap for a long time 15 years but you know what...there is a whole lot of crap out there..when i took knowledge in 1972 I knew this was what i was waiting for for my whole life...sorry to say after 15 years of the trip i wasnt satisfied.. but the disappointment dammed near killed me I gave my whole heart and soul....and you know what we cannot be all bad for giving our all for what we truly believed... this forum has helped me thru the past months. stick with it...dave
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Date: Mon, Sep 14, 1998 at 22:14:17 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: The very idea
Message:
of answering to Chris is offensive. I think Jerry hit the nail straight on (on one of the other forums) where he confronted Chris about his bullshit about ambiguity and the pratfalls of verbal communication. Chris does NOT communicate in good faith. He does not try to lay a thought out on the table clearly, much less engage with other human beings. Yet there he is smiling likie an idiot with bits of pooh bird feathers coming out his mouth.

David, answering to Chris is a radically uncalled for act. You might as well answer to a Maharaji video game.
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Date: Mon, Sep 14, 1998 at 23:29:05 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Sir David
Subject: My reply to Chris Dickey
Message:
Dear Sir,
I understand you are washing your hands of the premie forum not this one. I am glad you are not leaving this one. I haven't been around much even become a bit of a lurker, gasp, but I always enjoy your posts and I would have to agree with others in this thread that you are a wonderful, sensitive and caring man.

I am sorry about the sexual guilt you have due to BM's sick 'instructions' on this topic. I was so very fortunate like, Gerry, to not have sustained much if any long lasting harmful effects of his cult. I did, however, live with my parents for way to many years as a child and they had very weird ideas about the evils of sex and many other fucked up things they belived and taught, my father just wanted to have everything be perfect or to be let to believe it was and couldn't talk about anything that was more than superficial. My mother was violent and vehemently against sex and told us how awful it was our whole lives. I am still dealing with that stuff today at 43 but have come a long way. This is the crooks of my problems and I can relate to 'x' in saying eventhough he thought BM was fake a lot of what he said still affected him. I also turned away from my parents teachings at a very young age but their shit still got into me.

I just want you to know you have a lot of support here as Judith said. I know you to be a thinking, feeling man and that is a big plus in conquering a lot if not all the shit that has hurt you from BM, I think and hope anyway. At least you didn't castrate yourself! My heart goes out to you and them and anyone who still suffers from BM's greedy control trip.

I hope you can use this forum, MMT, email and any other avenues you may have, friends and family, whatever, to deal with some of this. You deserve to feel good in your sexuality, in your life and in your heart and mind. I know your body gives you a run for your money which must make the rest harder to deal with. You have the love and respect of many here David including me.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 02:08:58 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Sir David and david m
Subject: to sir David and david m
Message:
I hope both of you guys will keep hanging on. David M, I am glad the ex-premie forum has helped you - Sir David, I hope it has helped you as well. Regarding the problems with sex - I think that a lot of us former premies had those as a result of our upbringing, and they were definitely exacerbated by our time spent as premies. I think in particular of a premie friend of mine who had the same problem, and ended up killing himself. I don't know exactly why he killed himself, so I can't say it was Maharaji's fault, but I know that the premie lifestyle probably could be implicated in his death.

Anyway, I hope and pray that both of you (and anyone else) will hang in there. I hope that there will be no more premie (or ex-premie) suicides, and that we can share enough love and compassion with each other on this forum to support each other in our journey away from Maharaji.

Love from Katie
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Date: Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 11:23:39 (EDT)
From: david m
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: to sir David and david m
Message:
hey Kaie...
Thanks for the kind words...Its been said time heals all wounds but let me till you this sure is a long....time.. ...each day brings a new adventure.. so thanks again.....love and peace david
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 08:59:15 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Now that you mention it...
Message:
David:

Since you brought it up, I wonder if my inability to maintain a long term relationship has anything to do with my involvement in the cult? I don't think I have a lot of sexual guilt, but did develop this conception that I am not responsible for my relationships on some level. I think that has probably affected a lot of things, including career, etc. Anyway, I've felt a good deal better about my ability to be responsible since participating in this forum. I believe that the experience of commitment will eventually yield dividends once we learn to see it in the proper light. Thanks for bringing this up.

-Scott

God we were sitting ducks, weren't we!
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 12:14:32 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Sitting ducks....
Message:
Scott: The only words that come to mind are: 'Pull,' bang. 'Pull,' bang.... he he he. ;-)
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Date: Tues, Sep 15, 1998 at 20:02:54 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Thank you
Message:
Thanks for all of your warm messages of support here. It is not easy for me to admit to this forum that I indeed have suffered from a problem all these years which is due to Maharaji's bullshit programming. I guess CD's post telling me I'd lost my marbles enabled me to blurt out the truth that yes, I have been damaged by this cult and in a very personal way too. I will reply to the private emails very soon. Thank you.

Actually Katie, I really didn't suffer from any guilt problems before I got trapped into Maharaji's cult. Sure I had some bad problems with my parents but that was resolved and forgiven in my early twenties. No, it was Maharaji who was responsible for my guilt complex. Thankfully, sometimes I see my problems objectively but there are other times when it all comes back at me and I'm like a man drowning in a sea of endless cult programming. I guess I have to accept that even after all these years, I have not deprogrammed myself and the lies and bullshit which was flung at me, still sticks to me. Really, I don't think most ex-premies even realise just how much of their behaviour and emotional state is because of the years of cult programming which we all received. I mean we lived it for years and years, throughout our twenties!

This web site is really two things. It is anti Maharaji and everything he stands for but at the same time it is an example of the real truth. The truth of human love and compassion which is quite evident in the posts above. If someone needs any better indication of what is true, then love and compassion is the best indication I know of. And here, it is always appreciated.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 02:36:55 (EDT)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Now that you mention it...
Message:
Hi Scott

I reckon our cult involvement could well have something to do with inability to maintain relationships etc. I didn't come out with any sexual guilt (which is amazing, because I came out with so many other weird beliefs and guilts). The vibe around the premie communities I've had to do with was never particularly down on sex - but the attitude was something like: it's fine to fuck around so long as it doesn't take you away from your commitment to MJ. There were always heaps of guys around who were more than willing to take the women to bed, just so long as they understood that their commitment was to MJ. I've even heard MJ joking about it, telling the women to watch out for the men (although he didn't add my analysis of why they might be a problem).

Take care, Scott. And you too, David.

Diz
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Date: Thurs, Sep 17, 1998 at 20:53:48 (EDT)
From: Judith
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: Now that you mention it...
Message:
Yeah I was told by one full-on premie that the 'secret' of the good relationship had by two premies was that they were both going in the same direction, side by side - and didn't look to each other for fulfilment (because they got it from inside themselves).

Sounds idealistic doesn't it. Almost childish. I don't need you, so now we can be together. Seems to be a philosophy based on having little trust, to me. Any other opinions on this? I really want to clear my head of all this shit.
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Date: Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 09:50:13 (EDT)
From: Sir D
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Judith
Subject: An inhuman philosophy
Message:
Maharaji's hypocritical philosophy that we don't need other people is very damaging and unrealistic. I tried to be like that for so many years and it got me nowhere - in the end I was just living alone in a room with the old DLM folded and no friends even, let alone a relationship.

It is an unworkable philosophy. Maharaji doesn't practise it but it suits him to preach this philosophy because it makes people think they are dependent on him and he needs that.

People have always needed and depended on each other. It's how we have evolved as a species. Not as solitary beings but as interdependent and interactive creatures. Maharaji's futile attempt to change basic human nature was bound to fail. Unfortunately there were many casualties along the way in this inhuman experiment.
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Date: Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 13:21:22 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sir D
Subject: An inhuman philosophy
Message:
Well said, Sir D. People need people. There's no getting around it, pure and simple. Anybody who tries, like you say, is doomed to failure.
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