Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 24

From: Sep 14, 1998

To: Oct 1, 1998

Page: 2 Of: 5



Ron Sherwood -:- 'Love' Part II -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 16:30:53 (EDT)
__Mike -:- 'Love' Part II -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 16:55:51 (EDT)
____Ron Sherwood -:- 'Love' Part II -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 19:56:25 (EDT)
______Mike -:- 'Love' Part II -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 20:14:17 (EDT)
________Ron Sherwood -:- 'Love' Part II -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 22:02:36 (EDT)
__________Gerry -:- Hey big guy... -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 23:06:10 (EDT)
____________Ron Sherwood -:- Hey big guy... -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 00:19:37 (EDT)
__________Jerry -:- 'Love' Part II -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 02:01:37 (EDT)
__Nigel -:- For God's sake, will you just -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 18:05:37 (EDT)
____Mike -:- Ain't it obvious? -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 18:20:45 (EDT)
____Sister Mary Elephant -:- There's 'a rat' in separation -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 18:24:24 (EDT)
______Gerry -:- Can you... -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 18:30:59 (EDT)
______Ron Sherwood -:- There's 'a rat' in separation -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 20:16:23 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Naive -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 20:35:03 (EDT)
__________Ron Sherwood@WebTV.Net -:- Naive -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 21:24:32 (EDT)
____________Mike -:- Cults -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 10:47:34 (EDT)
____bill -:- For God's sake, will you just -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 18:26:52 (EDT)
______bill -:- For God's sake, will you just -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 18:29:32 (EDT)
______Ron Sherwood -:- For God's sake, will you just -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 22:09:24 (EDT)
________bill -:- Ron -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 00:37:35 (EDT)
____Ron Sherwood -:- For God's sake, will you just -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 20:10:00 (EDT)
______Jim -:- For God's sake, will you just -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 20:30:06 (EDT)
________Ron Sherwood -:- For God's sake, will you just -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 22:31:44 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- Ready? Set? Quibble! -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 22:59:37 (EDT)
____________Ron Sherwood -:- Ready? Set? Quibble! -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 23:26:19 (EDT)
______________Jim -:- Ok, which is it? -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 00:16:57 (EDT)
________________Ron Sherwood -:- Ok, which is it? -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 00:24:47 (EDT)
__________________Jim -:- Coward!! -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 00:32:04 (EDT)
__________________bill -:- Ok, which is it? -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 00:57:45 (EDT)
__________Mike -:- Truth isn't an emotion! -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 11:21:14 (EDT)
____________Nigel -:- Logical consistency -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 13:21:58 (EDT)
______________Mike -:- Ahhhhh...Ya got me! -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 13:50:08 (EDT)
____________Bobby -:- Truth isn't an emotion! -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 15:12:18 (EDT)
______________Mike -:- Truth isn't an emotion! -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 17:37:28 (EDT)
__________Mike -:- I've noticed... -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 11:27:33 (EDT)
____________Jerry -:- I've noticed... -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 12:25:05 (EDT)
______________Mike -:- Thanks -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 12:41:01 (EDT)
______Sir David -:- Maharaji's mistaken monopoly -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 21:00:36 (EDT)
________Judith -:- Maharaji's mistaken monopoly -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 21:29:45 (EDT)
________Ron Sherwood -:- Maharaji's mistaken monopoly -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 23:43:51 (EDT)
__________Gerry -:- Sherwood you make me puke -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 00:03:30 (EDT)
____________Ron Sherwood -:- Sherwood you make me puke -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 00:16:56 (EDT)
__________Impressed Again -:- Maharaji's mistaken monopoly -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 00:12:58 (EDT)
____________Sir David -:- I had sex with alien beauties -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 20:13:30 (EDT)
______________Jim -:- Nonsense, David -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 21:10:28 (EDT)
________________Sir David -:- It is if you take that meaning -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 22:25:01 (EDT)
______nigel -:- Cult definitions -:- Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 12:16:19 (EDT)
________Mike -:- God, you're good! -:- Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 14:16:05 (EDT)
__Runamok -:- 'Ron' Part II -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 18:37:18 (EDT)
____hamzen -:- 'Ron' Part II -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 21:19:46 (EDT)
____Ron Sherwood -:- 'Ron' Part II -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 23:54:41 (EDT)
______Runamok -:- 'Speed: part 2 -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 01:11:32 (EDT)

Ron SherwoodSherwood -:- 'All You Need Is Love' -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 15:40:34 (EDT)
__Mike -:- Think about it Ron -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 16:07:37 (EDT)
____Mike -:- A vivid imagination -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 19:11:07 (EDT)
______Nigel -:- A vivid imagination -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 19:39:42 (EDT)
______Ron Sherwood -:- A vivid imagination -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 20:42:41 (EDT)
________Jim -:- The 'experience' trap -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 21:17:12 (EDT)
________hamzen -:- A vivid imagination -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 21:29:05 (EDT)
________Mike -:- A vivid imagination -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 10:58:07 (EDT)
__Larkin -:- Ron's song -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 19:26:08 (EDT)
____Ron Sherwood -:- Ron's song -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 20:56:46 (EDT)
______Robyn -:- Ron's song -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 13:48:48 (EDT)
________bill -:- lotus boot -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 19:13:18 (EDT)
______Mike -:- Ron's song -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 13:57:49 (EDT)
__Sir David -:- About the author of AYNIL -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 21:27:42 (EDT)
____Robyn -:- About the author of AYNIL -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 13:55:23 (EDT)
__Gail -:- All you need is a brain -:- Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 09:36:55 (EDT)

Mel Bourne -:- Jim, you're out of date -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 08:07:53 (EDT)
__Nigel -:- reprise: 'All-powerful giver' -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 08:50:52 (EDT)
____Gail -:- Great post, Nigel. (nt) -:- Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 09:44:48 (EDT)
__Jean-Michel -:- Jim, you're out of date -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 09:14:44 (EDT)
__Rev John Hammond-Smyth -:- Jim, you're out of date -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 10:00:21 (EDT)
____Jean-Michel -:- Jim, you're out of date -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 10:40:01 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Jim, you're out of date -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 11:07:21 (EDT)
____Gail -:- Jim, you're bang-on -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 23:39:49 (EDT)
__Katie -:- I beg to differ -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 11:19:40 (EDT)
__Mike -:- Truth is never out of date! -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 11:28:44 (EDT)
__Laura -:- Your true salvation -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 20:11:31 (EDT)
____Gail -:- Your true salvation -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 19:19:06 (EDT)
____Mike -:- Your true salvation -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 19:30:45 (EDT)

hamzen -:- THE VALUE OF LIFE V GMJ -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 04:36:23 (EDT)
__Jerry -:- THE VALUE OF LIFE V GMJ -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 09:13:53 (EDT)
____hamzen -:- Whoops -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 13:35:41 (EDT)
____Mike -:- The policy -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 15:45:46 (EDT)
______Jerry -:- The policy -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 17:03:11 (EDT)
________Mike -:- The policy -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 17:19:51 (EDT)

Gail -:- Whatever happened to Satgunga? -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 21:53:04 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Whatever happened to Satgunga? -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 23:02:55 (EDT)
____Gail -:- Whatever happened to Satgunga? -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 00:04:35 (EDT)
______Mike -:- Whatever happened to Satgunga? -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 11:09:28 (EDT)
__Joy -:- Whatever happened to Satgunga? -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 12:07:10 (EDT)
____hamzen -:- Whatever happened to Satgunga? -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 13:47:38 (EDT)
______Mike -:- Yup! -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 14:00:59 (EDT)
__Satgunga R. -:- Whatever happened to Satgunga? -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 15:49:26 (EDT)
____Jim -:- Hi -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 11:06:30 (EDT)
______CD -:- Hi -:- Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 00:09:55 (EDT)
__bill -:- Whatever happened to Satgunga? -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 18:32:00 (EDT)
____Gail -:- Satgunga - the river of truth -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 19:04:24 (EDT)

Jim -:- Best parts that got lost -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 19:08:36 (EDT)
__Gail -:- WORLD OF KNOWLEDGE -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 21:34:52 (EDT)
____Jim -:- WORLD OF KNOWLEDGE -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 22:24:42 (EDT)
______hamzen -:- WORLD OF KNOWLEDGE -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 04:54:26 (EDT)

Jim -:- Kiss my ass, Maharaji (pt 2?) -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 18:41:16 (EDT)
__Judith -:- Kiss my ass, Maharaji (pt 2?) -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 20:18:21 (EDT)
____Rev John Hammond-Smyth -:- Kiss my ass, Maharaji (pt 2?) -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 20:46:47 (EDT)
______Judith -:- Kiss my ass, Maharaji (pt 2?) -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 21:01:35 (EDT)
______Robyn -:- Kiss my ass, Maharaji (pt 2?) -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 21:15:30 (EDT)
______Gail -:- You guys are scaring me! -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 21:47:14 (EDT)
________Jim -:- You guys are scaring me! -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 22:33:19 (EDT)
__________Keith -:- Don't be scared. -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 22:42:14 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- Don't be scared. -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 22:55:41 (EDT)
______________Keith -:- I'm scared ! -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 23:24:58 (EDT)
________________Jim -:- Well? -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 06:22:31 (EDT)
____________Indie Yaweh -:- Hey! -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 22:59:00 (EDT)
______________Jim -:- Hey, Indie! -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 23:04:15 (EDT)
____________hamzen -:- Don't be scared. -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 05:09:51 (EDT)
____________Mike -:- Don't be scared. -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 11:04:36 (EDT)
______________Judith -:- Don't be scared. -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 20:26:17 (EDT)
________________Judith -:- Don't be scared.(cont.) -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 20:33:10 (EDT)
__________________eith -:- Don't be scared.(cont.) -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 23:48:34 (EDT)
____________________Jim -:- You're avoiding something -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 00:34:11 (EDT)
________________Bobby -:- Don't be scared. -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 15:30:35 (EDT)
__________Robyn -:- You guys are scaring me! -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 13:59:01 (EDT)
________Diz -:- You guys are scaring me! -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 21:42:02 (EDT)
__________Gail -:- Hey Diz. -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 23:43:03 (EDT)
____________hamzen -:- Hey Diz. -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 04:33:00 (EDT)
____________Katie -:- Hey Gail -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 07:38:59 (EDT)
____________Bobby -:- Hey Diz. -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 15:35:20 (EDT)
____________Mike -:- Hey Gail. -:- Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 18:15:28 (EDT)
__Diz -:- Kissimee -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 21:48:48 (EDT)

Ron Sherwood -:- Final Words To All -:- Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 17:49:00 (EDT)
__Jim -:- What an idiot -:- Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 18:23:34 (EDT)
____hamzen -:- What an simpleton -:- Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 19:00:55 (EDT)
______Jim -:- What an simpleton -:- Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 19:10:05 (EDT)
________Mike -:- But Jim... -:- Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 19:18:36 (EDT)
________hamzen -:- Ron & the d&b's -:- Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 19:35:39 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- Ron & the d&b's -:- Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 21:14:01 (EDT)
____________Mike -:- Jim sing Ron's song? -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 16:03:07 (EDT)
______________Jim -:- Jim sing Ron's song? -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 16:40:21 (EDT)
________________Mike -:- Jim sing Ron's song? -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 16:44:22 (EDT)
__________Impressed with Ron -:- Ron & the d&b's -:- Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 22:30:00 (EDT)
____________hamzen -:- Ron & the d&b's -:- Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 22:53:00 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- Ron & the d&b's -:- Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 23:01:14 (EDT)
______________hamzen -:- Ron & the d&b's -:- Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 23:25:37 (EDT)
________________Jim -:- Ron & the d&b's -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 09:55:34 (EDT)
________david m -:- About Ron -:- Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 21:02:26 (EDT)
__Mike -:- Final Words To All -:- Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 18:31:06 (EDT)
__Scott T. -:- Final Words To All -:- Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 19:14:40 (EDT)
__Gerry -:- wheel miss ya Ron -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 11:01:19 (EDT)
____Also Impressed with Ron -:- wheel miss ya Ron -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 14:22:12 (EDT)
______Gerry -:- wheel miss ya Ron -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 14:40:14 (EDT)
____Gail -:- wheel miss ya Ron -:- Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 12:16:58 (EDT)
______hamzen -:- wheel miss ya Ron -:- Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 13:45:31 (EDT)
__Nigel -:- Before you go, Ron... -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 18:46:17 (EDT)
____Jerry -:- Before you go, Ron... -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 19:29:58 (EDT)
____bill -:- Before you go, Nigel -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 20:02:27 (EDT)
____Judith -:- Before you go, Ron... -:- Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 20:30:57 (EDT)
__Gail -:- Final Words To All -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 00:13:46 (EDT)
____Mike -:- Unless... -:- Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 11:35:30 (EDT)


Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 16:30:53 (EDT)
From: Ron Sherwood
Email: SherwoodForest@WebTV.Net
To: Everyone
Subject: 'Love' Part II
Message:
Hello Again: First if Brian or anyone could correct the mistake to my name I'd appreciate it. There is only one 'Sherwood' in my name I assure you, on the 'All You Need is Love' post. And if not...oh well.

Anyway, what I also wanted to express is that I have no idea about why the numbers are 9 to 1 on ex's and current premies, if those are indeed the accurate figures. Or why Maharaji says he has no idea what happens when we die. (I suspect, as you all used to, that he says those things so people won't focus on the cosmic, religious, outward experience and let what's inside answer all questions. And those confronting statements are a good gauge to see how active the doubt or concepts are, especially for new
people.) It just doesn't really matter.

What does matter is what I'm experiencing. And I'm a person who before knowledge never had cosmic inner experiences, saw UFO's etc., and was the kind of person who had complete respect and could hang with the cool 'in-crowd' in high school and still associate in and after school with every other crowd. I was there for people if I could be of service. Thus I never in this sort of balance and focus, joined what I felt could be fake and would never join what you'd call a 'cult' if it had to do with my like itself. For example cult, like 'culture' must depend on the group function to exist. Thus the United States Congress and even this site, no offence, is a cult. But to me, who doesn't even identify with the name 'premie' beyond a 'lover of life' and doesn't consider it a label to the 'club' though others may or may not: Have only one fucus to this entire thing and that is within...period! I follow no rules to when I have to go see a film, go to a program (Now called events) give financial aid oranything. My experience has nothing to do with any 'group.' He has my heart and I am in his. This is all I know.

NO DOUBT: There is no doubt. If I could only share with you the simple feelings, the majestic beauty, the glorious even holy breath taking wonders he's given me inside, as real as your seeing these typed words, you'd know something else then what your currently feeling. But it's true, more then these words can say. Whether I'm rich or poor, in sickness and health, to death ends this life: Knowledge and Maharaji's role in it will be what it is. So his wife got sick, and his mom died. These things happen my friends. He doesn't shield anyone from lifes natural happenings nor himself. Things happen, things can change and maybe even things can be avoided. Yet all that will be as Richard Bach said in his book 'Illusions' is in the 'is' as in 'what it is, what it was and what it's going to be.' If you want more then that and you'll just call me vague, then all I can say is that your trying to take something very magical and place it in 'worldly' terms and that just not part of the design. Every great teacher throghout history spoke of this fact. You all know deep inside, it's true.

So let the feeding frenzy begin. I can take any of your words and not feel personally attacted (Though I may voice to beg to differ as an 8' bowie knife couldn't stop me from helping the girl who by the way, though her cloths were riped off, and she was being violently punched in the face: Did not get raped.) And yes the Beatles are my favorite because not only did they play inspired talented music: Their ultimate messege was: 'All You Need is Love.' I'm sure you'll find a problem wih that. Oh well tomorrows another day. Right?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 16:55:51 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: 'Love' Part II
Message:
Ron: You made an interesting statement, 'He has my heart and I am in his. This is all I know.' How is it that you REALLY KNOW this. Does he know your name? If you are in 'his' heart, he should know EVERYTHING about you. I'm not talking about those 'knowing glances' that he is so practiced at shooting into a camera/audience. I'm talking about KNOWING you! Every detail about your life, every nuance of your existence, every 'thought' in your mind, EVERYTHING! You seem to attribute this characteristic to him, so I would like to hear a concrete example of his knowing you. If, however, you are one of the high-rollers I mentioned in my other post, then all bets are off because you already 'told' him everything. If he is 'in' your heart, he knows ALL! If you KNOW you are in his, then you should know what he had for breakfast this morning because you have 'merged' and you are a fully-realized being. If you aren't fully-realized, then you are only GUESSING (and should say that).
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 19:56:25 (EDT)
From: Ron Sherwood
Email: SherwoodForest@WebTV.Net
To: Mike
Subject: 'Love' Part II
Message:
Mike: Just the other day I needed to get up at 5:30am. I didn't set my alarm and was about to over-sleep when from within a very clear and gentle voice expressed 'Ron' in what must have been the 2 second form like when a parent sweetly enlongates (Raa-on). Yes he knows my name. And being in his heart is about the love I feel within and the events which unfold in my life. I am not the one who is all-knowing. It is not for me to know all the facts as his breakfast etc., as long as he knows my facts: Is how the design works and you know it or at least what I'm talking about.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 20:14:17 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: 'Love' Part II
Message:
Ron: Two things: (1) I wake up before the alarm all of the time. It usually goes off long after I get up. I've heard my name called when I'm in the half-awake state, too. It WASN'T/ISN'T M doing it! (2) He doesn't REALLY know anything about you, Ron. If you don't believe me, ask him. I'll bet he can't name the place/date/time of your initiation (unless, again, you are a 'priviledged' premie that he hangs with). Under the same circumstances, I'll bet he doesn't know your physical birth date. I'll bet he doesn't know what YOU had for breakfast! If you are worried about 'testing' your master, then blame it on me because I'm the one that got you to do it (I'll GLADLY take that hit!) Ron, I don't believe he knows and I don't believe he cares one whit about you personally, except the money that you bring to HIS table. He sure as heck doesn't care about humanity because not a single dime of that money (that you gave with such love and trust) leaves HIS table!

- Please see my post below concerning the 'imagination.' It expresses how I feel about this topic, pretty well (without duplicating it here).
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 22:02:36 (EDT)
From: Ron Sherwood
Email: SherwoodForest@WebTV.Net
To: Mike
Subject: 'Love' Part II
Message:
Mike: I can't speak for your experience just as you can't speak for mine. I knew who woke me up. There was no doubt about it.

Look, I'm not going to try to convince you about anything. All I know is how real it is. And in the depth of my adventure I have no doubt, he knows everything about me and more. What he's shown me, you could probobly never believe at the moment unless you experience some of it yourself. Try letting go and meditate for about 3 hours and see what happens. And not in a this is bull, type place. But with anopen sincere place. That's all I can say. God I wish all of you could experience what I have and am currently.
Not my experience, but your own. But how real it is, is what I mean.

For some of you, when you leave your bodies someday, it just maybe, 'Hello.' Surprise, surprise surpise!
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 23:06:10 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: Hey big guy...
Message:
how about trying to tell us about your great meditative experiences...unless you think we're too shallow to understand.
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 00:19:37 (EDT)
From: Ron Sherwood
Email: SherwoodForest@WebTV,Net
To: Gerry
Subject: Hey big guy...
Message:
Yes, exactly, you're to shallow to understand.
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 02:01:37 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: 'Love' Part II
Message:
Mike: I can't speak for your experience just as you can't speak for mine. I knew who woke me up. There was no doubt about it.

Ron, shortly after I received K, while I was walking down the street, I 'heard' Maharaji's voice whisper on the wind 'Do you believe in me?' Ain't that beautiful, man? The only problem is, I'm not so sure, as you are, that it was actually M's voice. It was a beautiful experience, though, in a crazy, otherworldly sort of way. But I don't really believe that M was coming to me on the wind. I think it was just a manifestation of my own longing to make some sort of personal contact with him, nothing more. It's not likely that Maharaji knows about this communion I had with him on the breezes anymore than he knows you think he wakes you up in the morning. People can imagine things that seem very real to them, Ron. That doesn't make them real. We should proceed with caution when we have such experiences. There's a good chance they're not real.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 18:05:37 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: For God's sake, will you just
Message:
listen to yourself?!!!

And you're telling us you're not in a cult?

Imagine yourself way back when in your pre-premie years, and say there was some guy who lived up the road who was telling you about some amazing teacher - for argument's sake, let's say the teacher's name is Wilfred Dobson, or Doris Bimburger-Krull who gives something called The Wisdom, or maybe The Great Lesson - and your neighbour's testimony sounded like this:

NO DOUBT: There is no doubt. If I could only share with you the simple feelings, the majestic beauty, the glorious even holy breath taking wonders Wilfred Dobson has given me inside, as real as your seeing these typed words, you'd know something else then what your currently feeling. But it's true, more then these words can say. Whether I'm rich or poor, in sickness and health, to death ends this life: The Wisdom and Wilfred's role in it will be what it is

or maybe:

Or why Doris Bimburger-Krull says she has no idea what happens when we die. (I suspect, as you all used to, that she says those things so people won't focus on the cosmic, religious, outward experience and let what's inside answer all questions. And those confronting statements are a good gauge to see how active the doubt or concepts are, especially for new people.)

(Catch my drift? I mean, with this last paragraph can't you stand back a bit and see the slippery eel-like rationalistion going on? Your belief in this guy is so total that you don't have to believe him if he suggests he is less than you want him to be? It's like the Life of Brian)

You all know deep inside, it's true.

I >>>know<<< it's bullshit. And I know this with as much clarity as it is possible to know anything. There is no 'deep inside'. I am already inside.

So let the feeding frenzy begin. I can take any of your words and not feel personally attacted (Though I may voice to beg to differ as an 8' bowie knife couldn't stop me from helping the girl who by the way, though her cloths were riped off, and she was being violently punched in the face: Did not get raped.)

It's ok, I was impressed the first time so you don't have to keep repeating it. Shame there weren't a few fearless heros like you around when Maharaj Ji's initiators were abusing the sisters and getting away with it.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 18:20:45 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Ain't it obvious?
Message:
Nigel: That was so well put that I can't say anything! It should be obvious to the most 'buried' mind that the generalized statements Ron makes are pure-cult. This is particularly true of the 'forgive M for his inaccuracies because they are a test of your concepts' line of thought. I don't know about you, but when someone tells me that they 'don't know' something, I assume that they really don't know. If they make a 'mistaken' statement, I assume that they made a mistake or they really don't know the subject (one of the two). Is that illogical? Is that irrational? Why is it so hard for ANYONE to understand this? Are our 'minds' so advanced that we seem to understand this, apparently, difficult concept when premies can't?

- Ron: don't you get it? THINK MAN, THINK!
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 18:24:24 (EDT)
From: Sister Mary Elephant
Email: None
To: Ron
Subject: There's 'a rat' in separation
Message:
Spelling: C. Much improvement!

Grammar and paragraph structure: D. Paragraphs too long

Content: F minus. Standard cult drivel with lots of self delusion.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK, as long as you're having a nice time Ron...just try not to infect too many other people.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 18:30:59 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Ron
Subject: Can you...
Message:
Tell me some specific details about the wonder experiences inside which make this thing so real for you?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 20:16:23 (EDT)
From: Ron Sherwood
Email: SherwoodForest@WebTV>Net
To: Sister Mary Elephant
Subject: There's 'a rat' in separation
Message:
Mary: I will repeat what I just wrote Nigel.

An individual experience that does not depend on the group to function=no cult! The experience of a person that completely depends on the group to function=cult!

I am having an experience based on an individual experience. Which is it? You recieved an F on your first try. Care to try again?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 20:35:03 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: Naive
Message:
An individual experience that does not depend on the group to function=no cult! The experience of a person that completely depends on the group to function=cult!

I am having an experience based on an individual experience.


Ron,

How about some particulars? When did you get initiated? How long did you go to satsang first? How often do you watch videos, go to programs, etc.? How many videos do you own?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 21:24:32 (EDT)
From: Ron Sherwood@WebTV.Net
Email: SherwoodForest@WebTV>Net
To: Jim
Subject: Naive
Message:
Jim: I recieved Knowledge on November 9, 1979.
I went to satsang on and off for a couple of months before the date above. Yet Bihari Sing spoke with me alone almost as much as I attended the get-to-gethers with others. Yet if your going to say that was 'cult?' Let me sircumvent those comments by saying: My attendence at those meetings was to simply hear for myself more on the subject and to connect with an instructor so I could get Knowledge. It felt no different then going to a church so the priest could speak about life to me whether there were a group of people or I was the only one there. And in both cases, sometimes I was the only one there! And more then going to satsang I sought out individual parties to speak to me. Lets use a bit of common sence here: Just because a situation is set up to hear abot something with other people in attendence i.e political gathering or even going out for dinner, doesn't mean the experience you're having is based on the group in any way. For me it never was. If that's what it took, it would have checked out long before November 9th.
Up to very recently. I owned no tapes. The few I have now (Music and Video) were given to me as a gift.
Do to were I live and my work, I can only get to 'the big town' once every so often. Two or three times a month would be alot. And it's just to listen to the 'lesson' and the other peope there are just other students in the class room. And class rooms are not cults. It's where students go individually to learn. We can't all have private lessons at those moments. Yet the rest of the time it's very, very private. (Acyually even during class, for that matter.
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 10:47:34 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Ron Sherwood@WebTV.Net
Subject: Cults
Message:
Ron: 'Cult' is not a number, cult is an attitude and thought process. The fact that you 'individually' think the premie-think means that you are in the same cult as all of the others are. The fact that you can only describe your experiences in generalities and circular logic is a telltale sign of cult-think. Sorry, Bud, your thinking is as identical to every other premie that's been here (and IDENTICAL to what ours once was) as it can be. You ARE in a cult!
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 18:26:52 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: For God's sake, will you just
Message:
Nigel, I dont think he saw your post down below.
Why dont you bring it up here?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 18:29:32 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: For God's sake, will you just
Message:
Oh I see you did bring it up to the mel bourne thread..
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 22:09:24 (EDT)
From: Ron Sherwood
Email: SherwoodForest@WebTV.Net
To: bill
Subject: For God's sake, will you just
Message:
Yes I did and was not impressed.
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 00:37:35 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: Ron
Message:
Hi Ron,

Welcome aboard.

Did I miss a post where you said you had wife or kids?
Are you from the US?

What instument do you play?

I wrote a couple tunes and I have changed thier lyrics
so they are now comedy sex lines.

So I can wander into a bar and if they are having an open
mike I can do a couple funny tunes.
They used to be devotional songs actually.

The only premie tune that made it to the airwaves was
one that art garfunckle did called reason to live.
the song -i just want to dance with you was put on
an album of someones but it wasnt a stand alone hit.

What is the name of your song?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 20:10:00 (EDT)
From: Ron Sherwood
Email: SherwoodForest@WebTV,Net
To: Nigel
Subject: For God's sake, will you just
Message:
Nigel: First off, understand, that my 1st text when a few hundred words over so I hd to cut a lot. I went right to my 'partII' and didn't know if I cut certain aspects of the story or UFO's off etc, so I repeated a few points. Didn't mean to rub in points.

No, I'm not in a cult. The examples of my words said by other people would only tell me they were having a wonderful time. Now I need to repeat: I am not involved in an experience that for me, is based on the 'group.' An individual experience...period, defines a practice I'm involved in. Are we clear? An individual experience=no cult. Having an experience that can only function based on the group=a cult. Take 2 steps and return to go!
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 20:30:06 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: For God's sake, will you just
Message:
Ron,

Your smug satisfaction seems to based on nothing else but ignorance. What do you know about evolution, brain research and, particularly, Maharaji's history? Not much, I'd wager.

As you must have noticed, religion settles most comfortably when nested in an ignorant mind. Your 'miracles' are so outrageously pathetic I'm not sure what even to say to you. I agree, Nigel put it on you squarely enough. As did Mike. But, as we've all learnt here if we didn't know so already, there's no reasoning with someone who's indifferent at best about the truth and committed like crazy to a little jerk like Maharaji.

Here's an example: sometimes an asshole calling himself Passing Thru pops in. His trip is that Maharaji never said this, Maharaji never said that. Now, what happens with PT is pretty bizarre. We show him proof beyond all argument that Maharaji did indeed say this or that but, like Clinton on 'sexual relations', PT won't budge. Well, we know Clinton's problem -- if he admits he lied Starr will indict him. Maybe 8 months ago he could have come clean but it's too late now. He is forced to play dumb.

But what about PT? Why won't he play fair? The answer's obvious.

Now, why am I talking about PT? Simple. I'm curious as to how you'd analyse him in the circumstances. Assuming that what I say is true (and the archives bear out this point in spades if you weren't lurking at the time) how do YOU explain your premie brother's shameless dissembling?

My guess is that you know what team you've got to play on. You're not able to simply state the truth here -- about PT, I mean -- because of the obvious disparaging implications that would then splash all over Maharaji. In other words, if PT's so evasive and dishonest about Maharaji, why?

What's so funny, though, is that there are TWO diametrically opposed party lines for the faithful. Some premies know Maharaji as the not-a-leaf-moves-without-my-grace kind of guy (i.e. LORD OF THE UNIVERSE), others as a really neat guy who has shown them a few simple techniques. Which are you? Please tell me and I'll confront you with a ton of quotes supporting the other side and ask for your comment.

In the end, what emerges from any clear, fair look at Maharaji is that he's a liar, a perpetual con and a man of no integrity. I promise you this: if you stay here and stay on topic, unless you go the full PT route and try to say that white is black 'just because' you will have to admit much more than you think. That's a promise, Ron. You'll see.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 22:31:44 (EDT)
From: Ron Sherwood
Email: SherwoodForest@WebTV.Net
To: Jim
Subject: For God's sake, will you just
Message:
Jim: I have spoken of no miracles to you. Just that I'm having, what is to me an undenyable experience. Please try to be accurate. Stop speaking through your arse and trying to tell me what I'll have to be 'admitting.' I've noticed, that's what all of you are best at: Speaking for other peoples experiences. And get this you squirmie little punk: If you spoke foul language around me in person, I'd give you a practical experience that you could believe: It's called washing your mouth out with soap! And I say that with absolutely no emotion other then the truth!

Last post for the day.
Good Night (And lighten up Jimmy and go enjoy your night.)
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 22:59:37 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: Ready? Set? Quibble!
Message:
Ron,

Of course you've talked about miracles. If Maharaji manipulated the country radio scene in them there parts, or even your clock radio -- that would defy all known laws of nature and would constitute a miracle.

I can't tell you what you'll be admitting until you tell me what you believe. Do you think Maharaji's the Lord? Then you'll end up admitting he's made a lot of serious mistakes -- SERIOUS mistakes. If you think he's just a swell guy -- then you'll end up admitting that he's passed himself off as the Lord. Easy.

By the way, don't threaten me.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 23:26:19 (EDT)
From: Ron Sherwood
Email: SherwoodForest@WebTV.Net
To: Jim
Subject: Ready? Set? Quibble!
Message:
If those things are what you call miracles, fine. They are nothing compared to countless experiences I could speak of, yet again: Will not give pearls to swine.
And I have said it 'all' don't you think? Do you need it all spelled out or can't you read? There will never be anything to 'admit' to other then the fool you are!

And that is not a threat. I've asked and most have agreed that if you care for me to be apart of the diolog, keep it clean. And yes, if you used such foul language in person son, I'd wash your mouth out with soap.
And nothing I've said has been smug. Sincere and up-front, yes. Smug no.
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 00:16:57 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: Ok, which is it?
Message:
Time for an answer, Ron. Is Maharaji the Lord or not?
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 00:24:47 (EDT)
From: Ron Sherwood
Email: SherwoodForest@WebTV,Net
To: Jim
Subject: Ok, which is it?
Message:
I can only guide you to the place, where you can find your answer and that's within. What good is it to you what I would say. You have to find out for yourself.
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 00:32:04 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: Coward!!
Message:
I can only guide you to the place, where you can find your answer and that's within. What good is it to you what I would say. You have to find out for yourself.

That's it for you, bucko. Others might want to waste their time but you've just shown me all I need to know you're not worth another moment.
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 00:57:45 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: Ok, which is it?
Message:
Ron, even if he was the lord,......

By someone pretending to be or actually being the 'lord'
matters because of the example he shows for the people
now and to follow.

I am willing to list some of the ways he has left a bad
example for future people to base thier own personal
behaviours on.
That does count a great deal.

Also, the way that a 'lord' defines the reality is very
important because it gets followed by the believers
in that religion.

Look at buddha, he was looked at as an authority on
life (mistakenly) and he said this is a world of suffering and
the idea here was to leave this place in as few lifetimes
as possible. Course now we are stuck with millions of
affected people that have this ungrateful view of life.
18 billion years of evolution and their view of life is
pathetic.
All because some guy said he was more than he
really was.

I can find many definate problems with maharaji saying
he is more than the rest of us.

Do you see the subject I am referring to?
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 11:21:14 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: Truth isn't an emotion!
Message:
Ron: You said, 'And I say that with absolutely no emotion other then the truth!' TRUTH ISN'T AN EMOTION! TRUTH IS A FACT! GET IT? I think this was more than a freudian-slip. It's exactly the problem with premie-think. Words and thoughts twisted beyond all possible recognition. WAKE-UP will you?
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 13:21:58 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Mike
Subject: Logical consistency
Message:
Mike,

I think you're missing the logical coherence of Ron's position (the first we've seen so far). When you cease to believe in an objective, law-abiding universe then emotion is the only truth left, wouldn't you say?

(But it was probably accidental just the same...)
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 13:50:08 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Ahhhhh...Ya got me!
Message:
Nigel: Good shootin' partner! he he he he.... ;-)
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 15:12:18 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Truth isn't an emotion!
Message:
Buddhism says truth is co-emergent and co-dependent. So does Heisenberg as far as I can see. And so does Fuller. I agree with these views.

Gotta factor in the observer. Not absolutely objective at all.
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 17:37:28 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Truth isn't an emotion!
Message:
Bobby: I think(?) you missed my point. 'Truth' is not the 'name' of an emotion. Truth is not synonymous with emotion. Truth isn't an emotion. It may be alot of other things, but it isn't an emotion.

- You are right about one thing, for sure: I am not 'objective' when I talk about this particular issue. ;-)
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 11:27:33 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: I've noticed...
Message:
Ron: Are we losing our temper????? I thought that when you came here that you wanted a 'civil' discussion. Who called who a 'swine' first? Who called who a 'punk' first? Every BLAST you receive is one that YOU deserve from here on out. BTW, threatening anything 'physical' will get you kicked off this forum faster than M gave you your last 'wake-up' call.

- But, you know why premies get so upset with a 'logical' inquiry into their thoughts/beliefs? Because they have no logic (other than circular)!
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 12:25:05 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: I've noticed...
Message:
Have you ever felt senseless posting to a premie, Mike? I sometimes wonder, why bother? I read posts by ex-premies trying to present a logical, reasonable argument to the gibberish that premies are posting and I just know it's falling on deaf ears. Like Ron says, why 'cast pearls before swine?' or in other words, 'why cast reason before premie think'? They'll never get it. They're so into 'experience'. We're just into 'mind'. Thinking is foolishness, Mike. You have to listen with your heart and maybe if you're one of the chosen few you can become a shithead with no mind at all, like a happy mindless premie, who only needs his heart because that's where the truth is. It's in the 'experience', Mike. Don't bother a premie with reason because, you see, a premie has moved beyond such silliness. He's found the 'experience' where everything is love, happiness and more love. How can you compete with that? Who needs a mind to think with when you've achieved this glorious level of awareness? I've decided that I'm not even going to try and be logical with premies anymore. I'm just going to jam their heads with their own logic. Maybe after you present them with their own stupidity enough times, they'll get tired of being stupid and just wise up.
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 12:41:01 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Thanks
Message:
Thanks Jerry: Of course you are absolutely correct. Remember, I haven't been active here for as long as you, so I hadn't had a real 'premie experience' on the forum, yet. NOW I understand the plethora of responses that I've seen towards particular posters here.

- That is good advice (e.g. to jam them with their own logic). I think I'll give that a try, too. As you probably saw from my posts above (where he is 'leaving us'...sob...sob), I got a little 'warm' with this guy. What an INCREDIBLE EGO! You know, I have an ego (damn, I AM an ego) but at least I'm truthful enough with myself (and you) to say so. He says he came here with 'respect for us'.....yeah, right! What a jerk! What a moron! (And I'm a moron for trying to reason with him!) Sometimes I think the 'simplicity' of Jim's method of response is just what the doctor ordered.... cut them no quarter, cut them no slack, give them nothing (not even respect) and expect nothing in return (including respect). THIS GUY sure deserved 'that' treatment!
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 21:00:36 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: Maharaji's mistaken monopoly
Message:
It is a common thing amongst premies that they think that any good experience they are having is unique to themselves and other premies. The other night, while I was working and occasionally looking in to this forum, I was listening to some of my favourite Vietnamese music and working very hard and I felt tremendous. INdeed, I felt pretty spectacular, earlier on today too.

It would be crazy for me to suggest to people that if they worked hard and listened to the same music as me, that they would have the same experience of dynamic love. Dear friends, love is the nature of us all. Jim will say it's evolution and I say it just IS.

Love is the power, love is the attraction and the deep human need which is expressed in so many glorious ways. The whole world understands love. I was very sad when I realised that Maharaji wasn't the Lord of Love but there's no use crying over spilt milk. Now everybody is a love machine. You don't believe me? Just try spreading a few good vibes around and see what you get back. Everybody responds to a good vibe. Everybody appreciated being forgiven and everybody certainly appreciates being loved for what they are, good and bad, warts and all.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 21:29:45 (EDT)
From: Judith
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Maharaji's mistaken monopoly
Message:
Very good point, thanks Sir David for sharing some good vibes here. I went to see The Truman Show last night. Some of it was eery it was so good. Eg: He is trying to tell his 'wife' how he feels - and she is doing a product endorsement. He says to her - what the ...has that got to do with what I'm saying to you? (she with the perfectly curled hair and the perfect little nurses uniform complete with flowery collar - is telling him he should buy another product - that's what he really should do). It's a classic film about being real. I won't say how it ends - but it's very positive.
The mood of consciousness in the audience watching - we all know exactly what the film is talking about (in our own way) gets me feeling pretty happy, like you tuning into your favourite music. Good to hear you are working hard, David!
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 23:43:51 (EDT)
From: Ron Sherwood
Email: SherwoodForest@WebTV.Net
To: Sir David
Subject: Maharaji's mistaken monopoly
Message:
I agree with what you said about love 100%.

And I've never expressed that good experiences are unique to either myself or only premies if that's what your implying. In fact to the contrary: my posts are constantly referring to 'knowledge or what ever sincere practice' or 'with or without Knowledge.' And for my own experience, I've just expressed, no one else can speak for me and deny what I know to be true. And that I'm greatful etc. Yet I've never said only me or premies can have excellent, unique, happy or whatever sort of positive experiences. It's clear that most of you have a problem with giving credit where credit is due and being are being inaccurate to the point of dishonesty.
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 00:03:30 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: Sherwood you make me puke
Message:
You fucking brainwashed poster boy for BM's poison cult, eat shit.
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 00:16:56 (EDT)
From: Ron Sherwood
Email: SherwoodForest@WebTV.Net
To: Gerry
Subject: Sherwood you make me puke
Message:
Eat soap!
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 00:12:58 (EDT)
From: Impressed Again
Email: None
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: Maharaji's mistaken monopoly
Message:
Just can't buy into the additude against this mans heart, sorry. His words to Sir David ring true. I'll give some credit where it's due. Impressed again.
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 20:13:30 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Anyone who'll listen
Subject: I had sex with alien beauties
Message:
Well I thought that would grab your attention! All this talk about what truth is or isn't. Surely any 'truth' is relative. If there is A God then the truth God perceives would never be understood by a human being. If there is no God then what we as humans consider to be truth is purely dependant on our human awarness. An ant would perceive a very different reality and truth.

What I'm saying is that there can be no absolute truth. Again, back to God if He exists. Surely He would be expanding in awarness and any truth He perceived would be different to the one He perceived at a later date. If there was an absolute truth then everything would be static and nothing would ever change. There would be no universe because whether you believe there is a God or not, the universe implies change and evolution, not to mention expansion.

To say that what people can experience in meditation is the ultimate truth, is laughable. ANd to further say that Maharaji is giving truth to people is quite frankly, ridiculous.
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 21:10:28 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Nonsense, David
Message:
What I'm saying is that there can be no absolute truth.

David,

The problem with 'absolute truth' is its redundancy. 'Absolute' adds nothing. If something is, it is. Unless you're in a position to say -- not fantasize about but actually say with some authority -- that this world does not exist, then there's a lot of stuff that is. The fact of that existence is truth. End of story.
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 22:25:01 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Jim
Subject: It is if you take that meaning
Message:
Of course I didn't mean that. The world exists and is round. Yes that's true. What I meant was the Hindu concept of absolute truth which Maharaji says is in his knowledge. I'm paraphrasing absolute truth because when Maharaji or any Hindu talks about truth they mean some reality which is beyond this world etc etc as we've heard so many times in satsang.

Premies talk about the Truth. I'm saying there is no Truth because this so called Knowledge Truth is just another experience which is relative to anything else. If a person suffers from arthritis then the pain of that is the truth for them. A premie may feel that their Knowledge is the truth but only because they have been told it is the truth. If they go to the dentist to have a tooth pulled out, are they just going to rely upon the ultimate truth of the supreme knowledge of God that is beyond pleasure and pain or are they going to have a local pain killing injection.

It sounds good to say that some meditation techniques can give you the Truth but in practise it falls short of that.
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 12:16:19 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: Cult definitions
Message:
An individual experience=no cult. Having an experience that can only function based on the group=a cult

A useful definition (for some) but crap just the same, in my opinion.

Try these out. A cult:

(1) Has a single leader whose authority is not to be questioned and is
(2) usually accorded God-like status.
(3) No mechanisms exist within the movement to remove the leader.
(4) Members are encouraged or required to serve the leader.
(5) There will be no dialog between the organisation and similar organisations proposing alternative belief systems.
(6) It will be claimed that the movement's belief/path/lifestyle is the only path to liberation/enlightment etc.
(7) Public criticism of the leader will lead to a member's expulsion (or at least removal from public events).
(8) Although the movement may claim charitable status, all incoming monies will remain within the cult, or go to the leader.
(9) The leader will have a very veryluxurious lifestyle compared to that of his followers.
(10) The internal control structures will be secretive and undemocratic.
(11) As far as is possible within the law, finances will not be open to public scrutiny.

that'll do for now.
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Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 14:16:05 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: God, you're good!
Message:
Nigel: Perfect explanation of an organization that has earned 'cult' status. Almost any single line would be sufficient to define a cult, but M fits ALL of them! Hey.... maybe he IS a 'maha'.... MAHACULTji he he he.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 18:37:18 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: out of order
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: 'Ron' Part II
Message:
Ron:
M is probably just what you need but I wouldn't count on it being something we need around here.
Maybe you could cut down on coffee though bud. Did you ever consider the paradox of being a Jesus freak on speed? Somehow it doesn't come across quite as well as you may think it does.
Anyway Ron, feel free to have your people call my people. If a song ain't gonna sell what's it worth anyway, right?
Sincerely,
Runamok
PS I don't know what all those ex-premies are getting so excited about Ron.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 21:19:46 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: 'Ron' Part II
Message:
'I don't know what all those ex-premies are getting so excited about Ron.'
It's the the fucking bastard with the two new mercs standing behind him smirking like an inane idiot reciting his shite poetry while he downs his bottle of whisky and shags Monica Lewis and laughs at all the gullible idiots in the mental hospitals and worse, who were stupid enough to think he was the lord of the universe and weren't worthy enough, knowing he's just picked up his annual one million dollar cheque from amtex and can get away with saying anything and someone like Ron will front for him because he's brought peace to the world. That was you who said that wasn't it Ron? But Ron's happy and having his first spiritual experiences so they must be coming from slimeball, because Ron, he knows what it's all about, he's been around.
Get real Ron, you think no-one here is having experiences, you think no-one here has had experiences. We just don't talk about them because there are too many people who practiced for years, who were in the ashrams and suffered and never had an experience and unlike you I happen to think that rubbing it in peoples faces is fucking insulting.
But hey that's nothing to do with the creep because he was just testing or protecting the truth because that's all that counts and Ron knows, really knows that deep inside we all know what he says is true. I mean he's here to do the lords work and nothing else matters.
I can't speak for anyone else but that's why I'm fucking livid.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 23:54:41 (EDT)
From: Ron Sherwood
Email: SherwoodForest@WebTV.Net
To: Runamok
Subject: 'Ron' Part II
Message:
Well a sane and understandable comment. Thank you. But I'm not on coffee and it all comes off just fine. (How well do you expect it to? See my point?) And no need for contact...it will sell!
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 01:11:32 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: out of order
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: 'Speed: part 2
Message:
It's your adrenaline Ron. YOU WERE MEANT TO LIVE FAST!
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 15:40:34 (EDT)
From: Ron SherwoodSherwood
Email: SherwoodForest@WebTV.Net
To: Everyone
Subject: 'All You Need Is Love'
Message:
Dear Everyone: Greetings and good morning! Though I
honestly didn't think I'd be back on so soon, after a
couple of days: I did want to check in and see what, if
any reaction my interplay with all of you caused. And
believe it or not, how you're all doin'. To my surprise,
wow, look Ma, I'm famous on the ex-premie channel! You
guys (And gals, that's just a figure of speach.) are
great. I read through most of your comments. I felt
respect for your convictions and I laughed, laughed,
laughed at your humor and what I felt was a good natured
poke at me. Though of course I'm not going to appreciate
the descriptions you lend about Maharaji. Still, most
were very funny And thank you to a few people who
expressed appreciation toward me.

One thing I completely realize about posting here, is that
in most cases, I'm not going to win for losin'. Yet I can
take anything you can dish out I assure you. I once
fought off a seven foot logger in the north woods of
Washington State, who was attempting to rape a young girl
at knife point (Huge Bowie knife) so your comments will be
no personal problem for me. Yet as you know, I will beg
to differ, or make clear what or why I'm sayin something
etc., while trying to keep it under a heavy debate. For
example: When I was accused of being vague about my music
to you, I explained about professional industry protocal
and you understood. Thank you. In the same way let me put
a few things up to date and then we'll continue. This
first one is out of courtesy to you. As funny a that joke
was about my spelling (I laughed well!) it's really not
true. I re-read my long posts an saw that though I did
mis-spell as much as anyone, mostly I left out letters
like typing the word 'you' but only placing 'yo' on the
site. That's because I'm operating on a new key board and
I didn't have its touch down. Nor do I have he time to
review. I will be 'mo' careful! And you asked me to
continue, driving me deeer into things, which I tried to
do: And then when I did, someone comments about feeling I
was going 'deeper and deeper to keep my head above water.'
The comment by someone after that who didn't feel 'that'
is the accurate account. Folks, this lad is feelin' good
so lets keep to the subject. When I'm about to blow-up,
you'll be he first to know, and like you said, I'll have
all of you and this site to help me, and care. (You asked
what I woul call that?...I call it love!

Moving Ahead: To continue, allow me to update on Nigel's
comments. I am not a 'premie song writer.' And the song
in question has nohing to do with the subject of 'Guru.'
In fact to my surprise you actually accented the exact
title somewhere in your post. And the song clearly did not
come from my mind. In fact the story of how this special
rock ballad came about is thus: The day after I returned
from recieving Knowledge I felt inspired and picked up my
guitar and to my delight, I played the entire song lyric
by lyric, the entire form/structure including an octive
change and a key change I had never played before and
didn't even know I knew, down to the close and ending of
the song as it's now recorded and as it sits in the
Library of Congress with its 1997 Copyright. And as this
song 'wrote through' me as other artists call it, I was
having the experience, I was singing about. You can say
hat you want, but only the individual know what he
experienced. And I can assure you, that if there ever was
a time, that a song came from ones heart. It was this
time. I'm not a prolific writer and this sort of complete
composition needing not even a single melodic, stucture or
lyric change hasn't happened to me since. And believe me
when I say, I'm quite the perfectionist when it comes to
my songs. For like Paul McCartney, I consider them my
'children.' Based on the quality and loving subject
matter of the song: If it really does get out, which I'm
working toward that goal, I dare say it wll have a 'song
of the year' Grammy potential. And if this happens and I
get my 2 minutes on the world stage: You will find what I
say v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g.

About 'Money only going one way.' For me, it's all been a
door that has swung both ways. No he hasn't personally
sent me a check. Yet when we all apply our practical form,
something usually comes back. He does his thing and
raises his finances accordingly. Loving donations. For
me, projects, gigs etc., seemed to come out of no where
which I would call a loving donation. For example: A few
years back I sold my recording studio and my wife lost her
job managing a cloths store. Out of no where I had this
really strong feeling that if we pulled up stakes and
moved back to her mothers' community 4 hundred miles away
there would be a gig for me. Well that next week when we
were in that area I went to the bank to open an account
the day after arriving. I jokingly asked the bank gal as I
was filling out the forms etc., if she knew of anything
going on in music production? Her eyes went wide and
informed me that the very night before she was at a party
and the big shot DJ of the town was taking about how these
two certain fellows at a certain big advertising company
had a musical production problem that maybe I could be of
assistance with. She advised me to call the DJ. He inturn
put me in touch with the ad company and within two days
and three days of arriving in the area, I landed a 4 month
project producing and promoting the top country music live
act in the region. I was given the retainer I requested,
weekly salary an office, expenses and we used the best
studio in the state with players who had played with John
Mellencamp. I'd say something 'came back' to me.
Something inside wants to help. Maybe we're just not
listening or other voices are blcking it out. For me,
that feeling of confidence and a calm which I knew before
Knowledge and after, is very important. It's been said
that you have to know how to hear satsang. I've don't let
myself get caught up in the words, subject and debate
about the mind, mind, mind, mind. I just take information
in and let it flow as honestly as I can without getting
hung-up or 'in my mind' as they say. I know myself,
that's an important aspect, I'm sure. What is ment to
filter in or grab me at the moment or what I may need time
to realize will evolve as it will.

About Doubt: As sure as that logger gave up when I saw
what was happening and went flying into the scene yelling
'You'll have to kill me to rape her!' I have know doubt
about Maharaj and Knowledge. Maybe the mind is never ment
to completely go away. I don't know and I don't care.
Remember he said that 3 things exist: You, Maharaji and
the experience your having of your life. The mind that
pridefully recognizes our differences and identifies them
as who we are is the 'mind' that further creates
seperation, discontent, predjudice and hate. I've found
that whn people live in a clearer sincere heart whether
they have knowledge or not: Find a commom factor of how
we are all the same as in the family of mankind etc., and
then the differences can be respected as what's really
just on the surface though can still be beautiful and
wonderful, but was once thought of as all we were. (And
still is by most people on this planet.) When those 3
factors of me, life and the experience one is having
become one in that certain flow, no matter what practice a
person is involved with: You usually find a rather
balanced person where the discussion of 'the mind' isn't
going on. (Unless their in the medical field of course.)

John Lennon: As a person who had the opportunity to
briefly meet John in the middle 70's, let me say he was a
great teen star, in the best band of all time whose final
messege that the band stood for was, love; became one of
the voices of a generation during the 60's/70's cultural
renaissance, even popularized meditation into the
pop-culture via TM and was an extremely talented writer,
musician and artist: Yet to John, he though all we were
was our minds and our hearts came from there.(Saw the mind
as the true expression of our soul.) Yet to me, the lyrics
to 'There's a place' by themselves are true. Though I
would revise them to heart as I believe George Harrison
did on a version and what John may have learned on that
day in 1980.

More on No Doubt: If any of you could experience what
have, you would also have no doubt. You can explain
experiences away with a science/physiological reasoning
all you want as that will support your belief. Yet what
I've experienced inside (And I'm a person who never saw
anything inside or UFO's outside or any cosmic/magical
stuff ever before knowledge.) Read Part II Ron
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 16:07:37 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Ron SherwoodSherwood
Subject: Think about it Ron
Message:
Ron: Don't you think that those, apparently, wonderful things that happened to you when you left your job happen to other people (who don't have any idea M exists), too? I could easily say that about myself. I retired while I was in Hawaii. The job offers there came pouring in before my actual retirement. I wanted to go 'home' to Arizona, so my family and I 'took a chance' and came back without any job prospects at all. I had a job (high paying) within one week of my arrival. I didn't even get a small vacation because it happened so fast. The fact that everything worked-out so quickly doesn't make it 'magical.' It makes it 'great' for me and my family, but it doesn't make it a proof of 'grace' or anything else (except maybe that I was the right person in the right place at the right time). I'm not belittling your, apparently, wonderful stroke of luck, but you can't even begin to prove that M had anything to do with it. I'd even bet that if someone asked M, right now, if he knew where you worked, he would say no (unless you happen to be one of his high-rollers that he keeps tabs on). If he had anything to do with it, he would know EVERYTHING about it. Again, it's one of the major fallacies that we 'blame' everything that's good on some god-like force and everything 'bad' on ourselves. It's called, 'Lack of self-worth' and M capitalizes on this rather pernicious part of human nature.

- On a different note: Welcome Back! Hope you liked my joke about Jim playing your song.... ;-)
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 19:11:07 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Ron
Subject: A vivid imagination
Message:
Ron: the human mind (brain) is a wonderful thing. It can do MUCH more than THINK about things it has seen, places that it has been or things it's been taught. It CAN IMAGINE. It can make-things-up. It can DREAM! It can 'feel' affinity, for no particular (read that: apparent) reason. It can do all these things and much, much more. I can go on forever! You want an example? Try this:

- Ron, IMAGINE a meadow, surrounded by a lush green pine forest with a dark blue stream winding its way through. A beautiful, clear sky with snow-covered mountains as the perfect backdrop. Those craggy mountains look as new as the day they came into existence. Sharp spires seem to point the way to heaven, the deep clefts disappear into nothingness. The play of light and shadow is a feast for your eyes. Don't you just smell the thick, sweet odor of pine sap? Don't you just hear the wind as it blows through the those trees? Don't you just 'feel' that slightest breeze against your face? Don't you just SEE WHAT I MEAN? Ron, the place I just described is in MY IMAGINATION. I've NEVER been there! There are meadows, there are streams, there are mountains and sky. But the combination that I just described, I've NEVER SEEN! I've seen places that may come close, BUT NO CIGAR! Our minds can combine, recombine and produce completely new structures. I can FEEL that place, Ron. BUT IT IS FANTASY! A nice fantasy, to be sure, but fantasy nonetheless.

- Doesn't this little demo give you the slightest hint that what you have been 'given' might be something that you just 'made-up?' Is your experience of K the exact same as anyone elses? If it isn't, then K can't be a 'universal constant.' If it isn't, it should give you a clue that you are IMAGINING your version of 'heaven' that is unlike anyone elses version. They may have some common characteristics (like the characteristics displayed by my imagined forest scene and those that I've REALLY seen). Love (affinity) is a wonderful thing, but is it 'floating around' in some ethereal sphere that you feel (by the grace) or is it your brain producing some endorphins (or some other chemical) in response to a pleasurable stimuli? Are YOU meditating on a 'dream?' THINK ABOUT IT, RON.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 19:39:42 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: A vivid imagination
Message:
Very well put indeed, Mike (if I may repay the compliment). Nothing to add.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 20:42:41 (EDT)
From: Ron Sherwood
Email: SherwoodForest@WebTV,Net
To: Mike
Subject: A vivid imagination
Message:
Mike: I can't even say 'nice try' to your trying to
reason away my experience. I'm not going to do 'pearls
to swine' with my experience but I will share this:
Right after I recieved Knowledge I went back to
California where I shared a little about Knowledge with
a friend. The very next morning the friend came to me a
bit shaken yet excited telling me about a white/silvery
light, that woke him so powerfully, it knocked him out
of bed. It was no imagination to him. He had no doubt
that something very real happened in is lfe, as in a
beautiful and timely wake-up-call.

And now you're not only trying to define everyones
experience, you're defining what life can or can't do.
I'm sure there's a factor in everyones experience that
is the same yet still it's all experienced individually.
So how can anyone ever compare it? We all breath etc.
Yet just as things outside can be different and tailor
made to individuals, so has it been for thousands of
years. Jesus did not give the same inner experience to
all that he gave to Paul as it's recorded in the Bible.
Thus the all of life, is still what it is, regardless of
the limits and conclusions you place on it.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 21:17:12 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: The 'experience' trap
Message:
Ron,

How sad to see this happen to a person. You're damned right that by 'trying to define one's experience [we're] defining what life can and can't do.' Of course we are. What's with you? Are you anti-science or something? If not, what do you think science does if not try to understand life, including what it can and can't do?

Appearances are deceiving. Yet, in your 'romantic' premie spirit, you pretend to not know that. Got a coincidence you like? Call it Maharaji's Grace. Now don't just THINK that's what it is, don't try to understand the TRUTH of the matter. That might ruin things, right?

Ron, do you know how Maharaji got to be a 'guru'? I mean the real story, do you know it? Do you care to? No, of course not. You're like a kid on a ride at Disneyland. You don't want to see behind the scenes, see through the illusion. You've banked your whole future on bright, cheery -- but extremely forced -- naivite.

I remember when I was a premie and prone to look for Maharaji in everything. Sometimes a love song or seomthing of the sort would come on the radio -- Maharaji! What got tricky, though, was hearing something like Steve Wonder's 'Mistra Know-it-all'. If the universe was talking to me -- sorry, if Maharaji was talking to me through the love songs, what was going on with this song warning about a con artist?

Were you around when Maharaji gave the satsang about the rampaging elephant. The devotee believed the elephant was just a manifestation of god and thus would never hurt him, so he avoided the warning of the elephant keeper and got crushed. The morale? God might have been in the elephant but he was also in the keeper. The fool should have listened.

So maybe you think Maharaji's everywhere -- in your heart, in your breath, in your alarm clock and, especially, in your VCR. But god -- if you believe in him, and I don't -- is in us too, Ron. Maybe the universe has a whole different lesson for you than you expected.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 21:29:05 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: A vivid imagination
Message:
And of course only the effect of mr love can produce the effects of light and synchronicity. Spiritual arrogance or what.
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 10:58:07 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: A vivid imagination
Message:
Ron: If YOUR OWN brain does something (like maybe 'reveal' a neural process), IT'S VERY REAL to you. Duh!!! That doesn't make it 'mystical' and it doesn't mean that the experience comes from M. YOU STILL haven't provided any 'proofs' that I asked for in my previous posts. You can't blow-off my questions so easily. Unlike the average premie, I actually remember the questions that I ask.

- Additionally, how dare you refer to speaking with me (or anyone else) as 'pearls before swine.' YOU ARROGANT TWIT! You have NO CONCEPT AT ALL of what I have or have not experienced in my life. You have NO IDEA what I've experienced in meditation and you have NO IDEA what I experienced prior to meeting up with M. YOU are the judgmental one (or is it just 'mental one'). If you wish to continue the insult-fest, carry on. But I warn you, in a battle-of-wits, YOU ARE UNARMED!
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 19:26:08 (EDT)
From: Larkin
Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: SherwoodSherwoodSherwood
Subject: Ron's song
Message:
my my, you are a rotund fellow
wobbly as a plate of jello
and when you dance I go all mellow
like a true devotee
although you're such a vacuous twat
as full of holes as custer's hat
without your pump my tyres go flat
(although your face is bloaty)

and though your dancing is deranged
and though i had things prearranged
my life was quickly rearranged
when rich neale started strumming
and when you looked at me and smiled
my happy heart was so beguiled
i came and got your bathroom tiled
with gold and silver plumbing

forget my superannuation
give me more of your sedation
teach me please to know my station
'neath your lotus boot
you got wine and you whisky
ladies when you're feeling frisky
light another king-size spliffsky
i don't give a hoot

Hey Mr Roly-Poly, do that dance for me
I've stopped living and there ain't no place I'm going to
Hey Mr Roly-Poly, do that dance for me
In the mumbo-jumbo madness I'll come grovelling, too
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 20:56:46 (EDT)
From: Ron Sherwood
Email: SherwoodForest@WebTV.Net
To: Larkin
Subject: Ron's song
Message:
I'll just use this space to say sorry for punching my
'vivid imagination' comments to Mike in twice.

To the song above: If you put half the effort into the
rest of your life, that you spend wasting your time on
such sillyness: You'd probobly be a lot better off.
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 13:48:48 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: Ron's song
Message:
Dear Ron,
Larkin's silliness is an excellent and welcomed part of this forum. We all enjoy the levity found there that makes the 'truth pill' easier to swallow.
Ups/downs, joys/sorrows, Tears/laughter all part of a healthy life.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 19:13:18 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: lotus boot
Message:
Larkin you are just great.
and very funny
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 13:57:49 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: Ron's song
Message:
Ron: Has M taken away your sense of humor, too? Wow, I can't wait to have my personality removed as completely as yours has been!

- BTW, I heard a rumor that M really likes people that 'dis' him. Why don't you check it out.... You MAY BE on the wrong side of the fence....
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 21:27:42 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: About the author of AYNIL
Message:
Well as as you probably know, the song, 'All You Need Is Love' was written by Lennon & McCartney. Now John is sadly, dead, so I can't comment on him except to say that the world was a better place for him having been here. But Paul is still around and very much alive.

Paul doesn't drive around in flash cars or frequent the most expensive places where the beautiful people go. So he's unlikely to bump into Maharaji!

No, you can catch Paul going to work each day on the local train which travels from his home in Kent. He doesn't travel first class but travels second class with all the rest of the 'ordinary' people. He could afford to charter his own train every day and even buy the train company, but no, he just buys his second class ticket at the ticket office and gets on the train with everybody else.

In fact, since most people wouldn't expect a megastar such as Paul to be travelling by second class on a local train, most people think it's just a Paul lookalike, until he speaks, that is. And then that famous Liverpool accent is reckognised and he usually has a chat with some people on the train. And that's what everybody likes about Paul, he's just so unnasuming and is happy to have a chat with anybody who cares to pass the time with him. He doesn't see himself as superior or anything.

So there is the guy who wrote, 'All You Need Is Love'. Freindly, kind and unassuming. Now who do you think is more in touch with the sentiments of that famous song? The author or someone else who claims to have the truth? I know whose hand I'd rather shake.
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 13:55:23 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Sir David
Subject: About the author of AYNIL
Message:
Dear Sir,
I have been thinking of Paul a lot lately and wondering how he is doing after loosing Linda. God my heart broke for him. It was so nice to know they were strong and loving with each other and let that out to their children, family, friends and even the world through music and support of causes close to their hearts.
So if you see him on the train, dear, tell him I send my caring.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 09:36:55 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Ronnie Sherwood
Subject: All you need is a brain
Message:
transplant. Check out your family and friends. The ones who love you will be there for you at their earliest inconvenience in whatever capacity. At times, they may give you their attention begrudgingly, but they'll be there. This touchy-feely bunk is NOT REAL.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 08:07:53 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com
To: Ancient Jim
Subject: Jim, you're out of date
Message:
and all your M quotes are more than 20 years old! You sound obsessive in your analysis of old 'Divine Times', 'And It Is Divine' or 'Golden Age' magazines which are decades old. Like an old alcoholic whore railing against her past lovers .

You may gain a lot more credibility if you directed your powers of analysis to current M quotes, say over the last year or so, but you are so obviously out of touch it's laughable. Do you have any recent material?

Mel
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 08:50:52 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: reprise: 'All-powerful giver'
Message:
Mel, I just posted the following to Ron below. The latter part deals with a recent claim of M's to be the 'all-powerful giver'.
Since Ron's gone, Perhaps you could deal with a few of the questions raised.

Premies who post to the forum speak of their certainty but never of their
doubts. This is, above all, the single most telling factor for me. You have
doubts, of course - serious ones at times - but you will never speak of them.
You doubt your experience and you doubt Mr Roly-Poly's divinity, but the
dissonance arising when you dwell on these thoughts is too painful so you have
no option but to shove them to the back of your consciousness and forget
about them. Perhaps you pray to Maharaj Ji to take the doubts away; but they
never do go away, do they? - and they never will. The chances are, for any
still practising premie, that their last day on planet earth will not be spent
merging with the light, but wrestling with those very same doubts, and asking
themselves, too late, whether they have sold their prize cow for a handful of
beans that never sprouted.

What about your doubts, Mel? Would you care to share a few with us. It
might at least convince some people here that you are a rational, thinking
human being. Never forget, Mel, that practically everybody who posts here
used to practise 'knowledge' - many of us for years. We all had those same
doubts, and we knew all the tricks to keep the doubts at bay. From your
perspective we have probably all given in to them, lost the plot, wandered off
into the Maya or something. And it was almost certainly the same doubts that
you will never publicly admit to that eventually caused us to jump ship. I now
treasure those doubts because they rescued me from something whose effects
were personally very harmful.

Maharaj Ji was always right about one thing, of course, and that is regarding
the source of those doubts, namely the Mind. He teaches you to fear your
mind; never to trust your mind; to get free of that 'crazy' mind. (And it is our
minds -yours and mine - that M fears above all, since he knows that once the
number of his followers using their minds to confront the difficult questions hits
critical mass, the funding will dry up and the whole guru game will be over.)

Remember that Beatles song: 'There's a Place'?

The-e-e-e-re….
There's a place
Where I can go
When I feel low
When I feel blue
And it's my mind
And there's no time
When I'm alone

That's pretty close to how I now feel about my mind. I love it! It is wonderful.
And it is the product of the most incredible, complex thing in the known
universe, ie., the human brain. And what a wonderful, stupendous piece of
machinery to be born with - and what a pity that people have to creep through
life in fear of their minds, rather than celebrating all the things they can, or
could be doing with them.

Anyway, I digress. Let's get back to the doubts. I will try and crystalise a few
of them here in the form of questions. I don't expect you to answer these on
the forum (though it would be nice if a premie did just that for a change), but
perhaps you could take them away with you and think about how you would
answer these questions to yourself . I stress these last two words, since you
will inevitably already have a whole bunch of standard answers that seem to
work well enough when answering questions to other people. But kidding
yourself is always that little bit harder than kidding others, I have found.

(1) Tears of Joy

Did you ever ask yourself whether those powerful emotional experiences were
ever anything other than
conditioned responses? 'Classical conditioning' is just about the most
rock-solid phenomenon in the whole of psychology, and the whole DLM/EV
recruitment structure could not be better designed to capitalise on this very
simple and natural learning process. The long aspirant period with the frequent
combining of M's voice and image with whatever nice sensations you might, at
times, be feeling is sufficient for half the task; for the other half it is the learning
to associate your inner struggles, pain, freak-outs etc. with your mind. I'm sure
you can see this sort of thing going on in other religious groups - maybe the
Krishnas, the Moonies, the Jehovah's Wiitlesses or whoever - but do they see
it like that? You betcha they don't. Because the nice feelings are real. They
cannot be denied. What is unreal, however, is the carefully fabricated
association (deliberately or otherwise) between those feelings and the object
of their spiritual devotions.

(2) The Knowledge Techniques

We have evolved four primary senses (if you count taste and smell as being
one and the same). Their functions are obvious, and all involve interpreting the
external world. Did it never strike you as odd that each of the meditation
techniques, rather than tapping into something cosmic, involves hijacking one
of those senses and diverting it from its proper function to focus on 'inner',
basically neutral experiences? For those that want them there are many ways
of turning inwards and removing external stressors. You probably believe the
'knowledge' experience to be superior to all the others; the real thing, even.
But you don't know that, do you? How do you know your experience to be
'spiritual'? How do you even know it to be M's 'gift'?

(3) The Path

Why don't your meditation experiences become longer, richer or deeper with
the passing of the years?
Why does nobody ever 'realise knowledge'?

(4) The All-powerful Master

Gail recently brought news from reliable sources to the effect that Maharaj Ji
has finally started talking again about 'the Knowledge of all Knowledges' and
himself as 'The All-Powerful Giver'. Many of Maharaj Ji's pronouncements
over the years have been very ambiguous, or at least, premie revisionists have
managed to re-interpret them. As I see it, however, there is absolutely nothing
ambiguous about the word 'all-powerful'.

Do you believe your guru to be 'all-powerful'?

Would you agree that if somebody who is not all-powerful claimed to be
all-powerful, then that would be a pretty serious misrepresentation of oneself?

On the other hand, If Maharaj Ji is all-powerful, how come he seemed to be
so powerless in the face of his wife's serious illness, and powerless to
anticipate his mother's death?
Why is the all-powerful one completely ignorant of what is supposed to
happen when we die? (as he admits on a current introductory video)
Why was he powerless to prevent so many premies ending up in long-term
psychiatric care or taking their own lives?
Why is he so powerless to resist all the usual worldly desires that mess up the
lives of ordinary powerless people?
Why so much alcohol?
Why the drug-taking?
Why the mistresses?
Why does he look so ill, nowadays?
Why do ex-premies outnumber premies by 9 to 1?
Why the grotesque display of wealth?
Why does the all-powerful 'giver' take so much?
Why is the flow of cash strictly one-way?
What evidence do we have for this power, other than M's boastful assertions?
Could it be that you and others like you, are in reality all the power he has?

I have never found the answers to any of these questions 'inside of me', and
neither have you. They deserve answers, all the same.

Give it some thought.
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 09:44:48 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Great post, Nigel. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 09:14:44 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Jim, you're out of date
Message:
I do have a copy of all recent printed materials.
I do also own plenty of recent video & audio tapes.
The problem with the printed materials is that they're full of nothingness.
And the videos & audios need some typing!
I've already transcribed some, see in the archives, m doesn't say anything that's making any sense since he's trying to look like a regular human being.
Except maybe for what he says about darshan (paying respect to the master) being the 2nd most important thing in knowledge.

I'll post some of these nonsenses, It's interesting in a way, to see how m can speak for hours, for the mere sake of talking and premies watching him in the eyes!

Jim is very likely to have the same stuff...
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 10:00:21 (EDT)
From: Rev John Hammond-Smyth
Email: padded.cell@asylum.com
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Jim, you're out of date
Message:
That's my boy, you tell 'm Mel. I mean the truth is constant and never changing so what if it appears to change from decade to decade? That's just our crazy minds, right?

And the Lord spake unto the children of Prem, saying, 'Thou shalt not concentrate on my divine word, wither ye be sitting on a bus, wither ye be walking to thy place of work. Verily I say unto you, O children of Prem, thou shalt remember my divine word for 15 minutes only while ye sitteth under thine blanket.'

Behold, the Lord has spoken and made unto his people a decree, that thy tongues shall not be made corrupt by residing in the nasal chamber. And the unspeakable ones who didst once give this unholy advice have all been packed off back to India.

O Lord, thy supreme knowledge is eternal and never changeth. Not this year, anyway.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 10:40:01 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Rev John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Jim, you're out of date
Message:
BTW: this is EXACTLY what the BM keeps saying and has been saying.
I mean, in essence ....

If he was the Lord then, he must be now.
If His words were truth then, they still have to be.

Otherwise He's a liar!

Maybe I'm confused, it's only his Lila ....

He may say one thing one day, the contrary the next day, and both be true. This is what's called a 'mind-blowing' whatever ...
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 11:07:21 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Jim, you're out of date
Message:
and all your M quotes are more than 20 years old! You sound obsessive in your analysis of old 'Divine Times', 'And It Is Divine' or 'Golden Age' magazines which are decades old. Like an old alcoholic whore railing against her past lovers .

Care to explain your analogy a little, Mel? How IS my publishing my former cult leader's words from the era I followed him like 'an old alcoholic whore railing against her past lovers?' Hm?

Anyway, you realize what you look like don't you? You look like someone with absolutely no substantive defence. Instead, you offer an inept analogy to just bait me a bit. Really, Mel, is that the best you can do? Please, I'm all ears.

My one question for you's fairly obvious. You must have seen it coming when you wrote the above: are the words of Maharaji's father -- even older than Maharaji's -- not worth analyzing either?

Anyway, Mel, you tempt me to start posting another kind of archival material: the writings of premies back then. I've really been looking at this stuff that Gail sent me. You should see it too. You can see the incredible ideological swings from '73 to '74 and '5 when Maharaji tried his first thaw. Then you see the religiosity start up again, just like I remembered in '76. By '78 he's bringing us together just to remind us how worhtless we are. AS in the satsang from Hans Jayanti, '78 (Kissimee, Florida) where, quoting his father, he warns premies that we're all like rocks -- no matter how much 'beuatiful' satsang we 'swim' in, we still 'dry off' so soon after and it's all for not. Yes, we better pray for mercy, plead, plead, plead for that little place on Guru Maharaji's boat. No, we're not fit to look at Him, let alone utter his name ....

wait, I forgot my point. It's not to put up more of his meglomaniacal (and dumb) drivel, but to show how we bent over backwards to respond to it.

See, you're just following stride, Mel. The premies were idiots then and they're idiots today. You think reading Maharaji's past garbage is embarrassing (I'm assuming that's the kind of laughter you've reacted with), you should read what WE had to say back then. Add to that the irony that hardly any of those people are still around. Bigshots or otherwise, almost all the old premies are gone. Almost all the PREMIES of anytime are gone. It's no wonder, of course. You're just unable to deal with the real world.

Here's a test, Mel. Do you have any of your own letters or perhaps articles from any earlier premie period? Post them. Let's take a look.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 23:39:49 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, you're bang-on
Message:
If MJ wants to keep the newbies, he's going to have to tell them he's the Lord. Mel is an idiot. If something is true, it's still going to be true 50 000 years from now, isn't it?

Hey, Mel! Why don't you wake up. You're worse than the JWs.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 11:19:40 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: I beg to differ
Message:
Dear Mel -
I do think that putting the old quotes on the forum has a purpose, and here's why:

1. It lets premies who received knowledge during the late 80's and 90's understand where the premies who received knowledge during the 70's are coming from. We heard all this stuff, and most of us believed it! I also think that it helps these later premies understand what Maharaji's true agenda is (see #3 below).

2. It helps us 70's premies understand why we believed such crazy things - for example: that we were going to go crazy if we stopped practicing knowledge. As stupid as it sounds now, I believed for years that I would go insane if I quit practicing, and that kept me from leaving M's organization for a lot longer than I would have liked.

3. As far as I know, Maharaji has never retracted or apologized for any of these statements. He has never even said that he was exaggerating, or was mistaken, or that he may have overspoken. If he has, I'd like to know it. I feel that he still needs to address the things he said in these quotes, otherwise he retains little credibility.

Respectfully,
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 11:28:44 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Truth is never out of date!
Message:
Mel: If 'truth' is eternal and M claims to only speaks truth, then these quotes are as valid today as they were 20 years ago. Why do you think that around '84 or '85 (not sure EXACTLY, but that's when I heard about it) that M wanted ALL of the old tapes, pictures, magazines, books, etc destroyed? It was made VERY clear to all premies then, that these materials were to disappear. It sounds, to me, like someone wants to hide their past (sounds a little like Oliver North, doesn't it?). How could I interpret that action any differently? If you want to know exactly which event turned me into an 'ex,' we are discussing it right NOW! I couldn't 'rationalize' this one away: He was simply trying to 'remake' the Office of Guru and hide the fact that he presented himself as the LOTU!
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 20:11:31 (EDT)
From: Laura
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Your true salvation
Message:
Jim doesn't sound obsessive to me, he sounds very real. He has more credibility to me than GMJ.

I need to hear the old quotes, it helps to remind me of why I believed for so long. I was told so much nonsense and I wanted with all my heart to believe - and so I did. I turned off my mind, my rational and irrational thoughts, and took it all in. And I waited. And I practiced. And I pretended I was filled up. And now so many many years later, where is the peace I was promised? Why are there still wars and disease and hunger and pain and suffering? I was promised world peace and personal peace. And I was promised that this would happen in my lifetime!

I was cheated. And you are still being cheated, cheated out of your one life. Because you are believing in something that is not true. You have probably told yourself that you are not believing, that what you have is faith based on experience.

Dear sweet person, you are deluding yourself. It is O.K. to have doubts. It is O.K. to examine and re-examine what you believe. Go inside and ask yourself if it is belief or Knowledge or plain old wishing something was true. It is O.K. to change your mind, to admit that what you once believed may not be valid for you now. Growth. Change. Maturity. Premies do not grow, change, mature. Premies don't allow themselves to do that. And so they are cheating themselves.

I don't want to play word games. I would like you to open up your heart to ME, an unknown person, and to ask yourself if you could be open enough to let my sincere desire in to Your heart. I desire that you ask yourself this, Is what I am experiencing true, is it enough to last for this lifetime and an eternity,is it GOD as I was promised? Is it everything and more? Is there any doubt inside me?

Please, claim your own life and be free enough to examine your innermost thoughts and wishes.

I am offering a lifeboat. Absolutely no strings attached. From one human being to another. Please accept. Go inside yourself and ask some questions.
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 19:19:06 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: Your true salvation
Message:
Wow!
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 19:30:45 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: Your true salvation
Message:
Laura: I have to agree (happily) with Gail's sentiments... WOW! To borrow an old saying: Live and be free, Laura! You are well on your way!
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 04:36:23 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: THE VALUE OF LIFE V GMJ
Message:
I get the impression that everyone is so pissed off with Keith that they have given up on him. The reason I'm mentioning the topic is that, in my eyes he has posted the start of a new thread on the great slimeball himself on the MMT forum which is very interesting and relevant BUT I find so provocative that it deserves a response from more than the few people who post there. You're all probably going yawn, yawn, hamzen will learn, we've all done our best with Keith but he is so impossible I'm not going to waste another minute of my life on him. If so and just this once, please at least have a look at the posting and respond here if the topic interests you but you've given up on all dialogue with him.
If like me the hairs on your arms rise as you read the post, PLEASE PLEASE try and keep the flaming to a minimum.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 09:13:53 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: THE VALUE OF LIFE V GMJ
Message:
Ham, you should be informed that there is an agreement in effect that opinions and beliefs expressed on MMT will not be subject to ridicule on this forum. As for the subject matter, in this case, the validity of Maharaji, I think it's OK to give one's own personal opinion on this forum, so long as the opinion, given by someone else on MMT, is challenged there, and not here. My own belief about the validity of Maharaji, and whether or not I can shape an opinion of him, even though I don't know him, personally, is yes, I can. Maharaji has asked me, from a distance, to shape my opinion about him based upon my experience with K. I don't have to know him, personally, to do that. K is an illusion. So is he. That's my opinion. Conclusion would be a better word.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 13:35:41 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Jerry/everyone
Subject: Whoops
Message:
Apologies everyone.
I didn't know there was any such agreement and it won't be repeated again.
Thanks Jerry
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 15:45:46 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: The policy
Message:
Jerry: I think the 'subjects' themselves should be fair-game here, but not the 'personalities' that expressed them on MMT. In other words, I don't believe that anyone should have a lock on a subject, just because it was presented on MMT (or here) first. As for taking a 'personality' to task here, who said something there (in this case, MMT): I think the stated 'no touch' policy is MOST appropriate. Is this the general gist of the policy, or am I misstating it?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 17:03:11 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: The policy
Message:
I think the basic idea is that if somebody posts something on MMT that they won't be ridiculed, over here, for it. I agree with you about subjects. No one forum should have a lock on any particular one, especially when it concerns M. I was just trying to fill hamzen in that there is an agreement that people who post on MMT won't have to concern themselves about being flamed for it here on forum heavy, or on MMT for that matter.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 17:19:51 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: The policy
Message:
Jerry: THANKS! That's what I had hoped. Yes, I knew that you were filling in Ham, but it gave me the opportunity to ask that question. Occasionally, I think they have an interesting subject that is key to why 'we' fell for M, in the first place. I think those subjects should be discussed on 'forum heavy' from time to time. I agree, though, that they shouldn't be flamed (here or there) for anything they say 'there.' Thanks again!
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 21:53:04 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Whatever happened to Satgunga?
Message:
Does anyone remember the baby born in Rome, 1977. She was born right at the Palazzo de la Sport. Her mother just couldn't keep away even to have her child.

Imagine having the Lord of the Universe name you Satgunga. What an honour!

'What's your name, little girl?'

SATGUNGA!

[end of conversation]
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 23:02:55 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Whatever happened to Satgunga?
Message:
Are you saying that's about the ugliest name you've ever heard? Worse than 'Balyogeshwar' or Nevlata, Premlata or Hansi? I mean those are all bad names, Gail. What exactly is your point here?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 00:04:35 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Whatever happened to Satgunga?
Message:
Satgunga is the worst-sounding name I have ever heard.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 11:09:28 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Whatever happened to Satgunga?
Message:
Gail: I dunno, if I were to have to vote on the subject, I think 'Moon-Unit' Zappa would have to be pretty far up there.... he he he :-)
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 12:07:10 (EDT)
From: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: Gail
Subject: Whatever happened to Satgunga?
Message:
As I recall (though I'm not 100% sure about this), the parents of this little girl were German and their last name was Baumgartner. Satgunga Baumgartner! Now there's a handicap to start life with . . . . .

Lots of other premies (and hippies as well) from that time period used to name their kids wierd things like Star and Sunshine, etc. I know of one Star who changed his name to Richard, and another kid who changed it to Robert, legally. Can't say I blame them. I'd bet that Satgunga has changed it also.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 13:47:38 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Whatever happened to Satgunga?
Message:
Didn't Grace Slick call her kids God & China?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 14:00:59 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Yup!
Message:
Ham: You are quite correct. Can you imagine walking into first grade and the 'teach' asks, 'what's your name?' and the kid answers, 'why, GOD, of course.' ..... he he he.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 15:49:26 (EDT)
From: Satgunga R.
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Whatever happened to Satgunga?
Message:
My greetings to you,

Excuse my Englisch is not the best, and the computer style
is not for me dearest, but I must drop you a line
stating points of view. Last night, I have a dream of Emile
who is my friend in Boston.I did not think of Emile
for many long times but now I have this dream of him,
and today he is sending to me an 'elektronische schrift'
which is 'email' which is telling me that you
speak of me on the Internet. So I look and there I am.
Yes it is true but I am now Satgunga Rietmeyer.
The writings here say some funny remarks and remarks too
that I thinking are unkindly about Guru Maharaj Ji. But you
still talk about his precious Knowledge.That to me showing
is that you are still caring yourself about Maharaj Ji and
also of his messege, not so?Satgunga is really not such a
very bad name, I think. I see funny names here a-plenty.
Mel Bourne is appearing like a village in Australia, does
she not? That is very funny to me.This ex premie place is
compltely interesant to me and if so I will stay some
moretime stay here and read more writings of you.

Bis spater
Satgunga R.
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 11:06:30 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Satgunga R.
Subject: Hi
Message:
Satgunga,

You sound like a really nice young woman -- in spite of your name which, I'm afraid, couldn't possibly do you justice. Sorry. 'Mel Bourne', by the way, is just a pseudonym. It's not HIS real name. He's simply a premie who's afraid of posting under his real name for some reason.

I'm not sure how bad your english is but surely you can see that we only 'care' about Maharaji to the extent that we want to warn others about what a liar he is. Can't you see that?

Ciao (?)

Jim
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 00:09:55 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hi
Message:
Hi Grandma.
What big eyes you have!
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 18:32:00 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Whatever happened to Satgunga?
Message:
I thought it was satganga=
-true marijuana- which is what rawat was on at the time he
named that victim no doubt.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 19:04:24 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Satgunga - the river of truth
Message:
I think this is the right spelling. Apparently she has written us herself. See Satgunga R.
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 19:08:36 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Best parts that got lost
Message:
[Here're a few parts from the lost post that I just had to put up. The idea is that Maharaji, like all good cult leaders, want to turn his followers into ... I don't know what you'd say. Certainly not free, autonomous people, that's for sure. For example, here's his dream prescription for hean on earth. No JW-style long picnic tables with lions, lambs, chinamen and negroes breaking bread and holding hands with plain, ol' regular folk. No, he's got something even better]

'As a matter of fact, if you really look at the purpose of a city, it would be totally impractical to have a city. Why? What do you wnat a city for? If you are going to have satsang all the time, what you really need is a great big satsang hall, you know, in which you have all the facilities. Everything. Have a great big arm-rest on one side, and when lunchtime comes, a green light goes on that means, you know, undo your shelf and there's food there, water, everything that you could possibly need. You eat your food while you are listening to satsang. You can punch a little thing in the computer ... bring me my clothes, and the green light goes on and you undo your shelf, and there are your clothes.'

[Great eh? Can hardly wait. Soon, Maharaji shifts the focus of his satsang to explain that there's NOTHING to feel comfortable about.]

'Shri Maharaji used to say that if we are going to be like a rock, then what can change us? You cna take a rock and soak it in water for years and years. Sometimes where there are these cliffs, and the ocean water and the tide comes up, it just really bashes against these cliffs and gets them all wet, but as soon as the low tide comes, they're all dry. You know? So if you're going to be like rocks, if our minds are going to be unchangeable, if that's going to be our outlook, that focus that is supposed to be on Guru Maharaj Ji, that focus is constantly going to be connected with our minds, then nothing can change it.'

[Later, Maharaji starts accusing the premies of -- get this -- wanting to get up after satsang! Like, is that Mr. Mind talking or what?]

'But still, what happens to us? I mean what happens? What goes wrong? What happens? People jsut get up after satsang and that's what's going to happen there too. *** And I know that when Marolyn sang that song, and then Rich Neal sang that song, it was very beautiful -- and then I left, then peopel got up. What did you tihnk of first thing, why did you even get up?'

[Now tell me just how this DOESN'T sound like cult programming.]

'Of course when you are protected by Guru Maharaj Ji's shelter, when you are protected by Guru Maharaj Ji's Grace, there is no problem, there is no concern, ther eis nothnig going on except satsang, except an experience. An experience so overwhelming that nothing can compete with it, nothing can join it, nothing can even come close.'
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 21:34:52 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: WORLD OF KNOWLEDGE
Message:
I just watched some clips from this video tape released last year. One of the songs is:

I want to be your co-pilot and I'm flying with you, Lord. I found a few others that were released recently (clips of his programs for the last 25 years) plus a choice clip of Holi, 1978 where he rants and raves about being the Lord. You can have them if you want. You seem to be getting a kick out of posting them.
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 22:24:42 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: WORLD OF KNOWLEDGE
Message:
Gail,

Normally, I'd be happy to take them off your hands. However, I've come to realize that perhaps Maharaji doesn't want us to even have let alone read or view some of the old materials. Did that ever occur to you? Did you ever think that this just might not be what He wants? I mean, what if some of this stuff got into the 'wrong hands' so to speak? What if people saw these tapes or books without the proper understanding or sensitivity? What if they weren't having an experience or weren't sincere?

I think before we go another step down the Golden Road of Unlimited Devotion (Grateful Dead, 1967) we should check with Elan Vital. IS it okay to post excerpts from Maharaji's early satsangs and such? That's what I want to know.

We should find out for sure. You know what you do when you assume, don't you?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 04:54:26 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: WORLD OF KNOWLEDGE
Message:
A young friend of mine went through the knowledge process recently without any real information of the change in presentation over the years and its implications. He can't get online that often. I've been helping him choose the timings of his visits because quite often when he has got online he finds the ex-premie support stuff and world discussions when he wants stuff directly related to gmj. The quotes have been a total revelation to him because they are coming directly from the horses mouth. (Sorry all you horse lovers). He is COMPLETELY re-evaluating his view of mr squeeky because of those quotes.
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 18:41:16 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Kiss my ass, Maharaji (pt 2?)
Message:
[This was supposed to be part two of a long summary of Maharaji's November 8, 1978 diatribe in Kissimee, Florida. Trouble is, it was so long it wouldn't post and I lost it all. SHIT!! Anyway, at least there's this end part : so Maharaj Ji then launches into yet another meaningless stroll through the mundane details of charter flights, cities, festivals, numbers, -- boring, boring, boring -- but, after about ten minutes, he comes back to that same dismal point:]

'This is what I'm trying to say: that forty hours of satsang is close to what we have heard this year, and when we go back into our crazy mind, there is no difference, it's the same old thing again.

And I know that how much we all really desire to be constant, I know that how much we all desire to to be always here. The sun can go down, it can rain, it can freeze, it can be hot, and I know that we would never want to leave. And is it because you like Kissimmee, Florida or this aprticular location because it's so close to Disneyland?'

[No, fuckhead, it's becuase we're in a CULT. He goes on before explaining exactly what our priorities in life should be.. ]

'You know, this is like what I said; that man I could work, I could have a job, I could do this, and I could do that, but the only reason that I would even want to work is to be able to just come to these satsangs and enjoy them. So what else is there in this world?'

[Then he gets into slagging initiators. Face it, we're all stupid in the face of his brilliance.]

'Initiators are not these rainbows that you imagine, and as a matter of fact to me, everytime that they get up there and give all this satsang, I fell like we should take that satsang they give, print it and send a copy of that satsang to that Initiator. 'Make that effort, dummy.'

[Then he starts laying it on just a little thicker.]

Like I was saying yesterday, what can we do, what are we going to do in our lives? Are we going to go up to Guru Maharaj Ji and say, 'Listen, here is your rain check, I have this rain-check right now, I want you to give me liberation right now, otherwise you're going to get it?' You don't do that to Guru Maharaj Ji -- you say, 'Guru Maharaj Ji, help.' Like I was saying yesterday, you say, 'If you could find any place, any point, anywhere, anything, if You could just find a little place for me, then just please stick me in somewhere, because I want to be on Your boat, and I want to be with You so desparately. I am already indepbted to You. Don't expect anything from me, I will do whatever I can by Your Grace, but don't expect -- I am already too much indevted to You. How can I ever repay You, what can I ever do? And I can't pay You even if I have the whole wealth of this entire world: When I can't even pay you with that, Guru Maharaj Ji, then what have I got, what is there that I can give You?'

[Then he starts getting into the heavy shit. Buzzards, snakes, parched throats, not enough body fluid for even a few tears of shame (I made that one up!). I already posted some of it. Here's a further taste.]

'It was just like this mind. Once it throws you over, what chance have you got? You try to climb aboard, or you try to even -- you can't do anything, it's just got you. You know, it's just got you. *** So that mind, that factor that's always against us, can get us; it has the potential of getting us. What I am trying to say is that I'm not trying to kid you when I say that the mind can zap you, the mind can get you. It can get you. And we have to be aware of that, and do something, and the only thing we can do to avoid that, is to surrender to Guru Maharaj Ji.'

[Then more bullshit about the wonderful movies they've got lined up for all the premies. The usual. Hey, what a great festival! Can't wait 'til next year!]
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 20:18:21 (EDT)
From: Judith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Kiss my ass, Maharaji (pt 2?)
Message:
Jim thanks for all these posts. He seems to be saying the mind is a kind of hell. No, not The mind, MY mind. Part of me. Like my body. What weird, crazy crap is this? If 'heaven' is within, then we seem to be supposed to go against our own survival machanism, our mind, to achieve it. It's real kind of self-denying and self-hating isn't it, when you really look at it.
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 20:46:47 (EDT)
From: Rev John Hammond-Smyth
Email: padded.cell@asylum.com
To: Judith
Subject: Kiss my ass, Maharaji (pt 2?)
Message:
Brilliant. You have realised what Maharaji is really teaching. He's teaching self hatred and also how to hate other people too! I have realised this knowledge and I thoroughly hate myself and everybody else. All exept Maharaji that is, who I love with every fibre of my being (exept my mind).

Since my lobotomy, most of my mind is in a jar of formaldehyde. However I still retain some of my mind which I can hate. How wonderful is the truth! Oh yes!
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 21:01:35 (EDT)
From: Judith
Email: None
To: Rev John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Kiss my ass, Maharaji (pt 2?)
Message:
Dear Rev,
Yes in my opionion the mind is just another sensory organ that needs to learn how to 'go inside'. Perhaps then it could connect with the divine mind, rather than just the divine sensory organs. Then perhaps we could all experience divine thoughts. Wow!
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 21:15:30 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Rev John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Kiss my ass, Maharaji (pt 2?)
Message:
Dear Sir Smyth,
My aren't they letting you stay up late in your padded cell tonight! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 21:47:14 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Rev John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: You guys are scaring me!
Message:
Holy Moses! You mean there's no hope? You mean I'm still going to feel empty, lousy, weird and worthless next year? Please say it isn't so.

Hell, maybe we should all kill ourselves and get it over with.
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 22:33:19 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: You guys are scaring me!
Message:
Hell, maybe we should all kill ourselves and get it over with.

Sorry, wrong cult. This one's permanent credit card drain cult. You want one of those apocolyptic movements down the hall, I believe. Better check the board down in the lobby. They seem to come and go a little more frequently than the slow-drain ones.

On the other hand, if you're interested, we have an introductory video starting in a few minutes. Here, here's a pamphlet that describes... well it doesn't really describe anything but it IS a pamphlet. See? See the pictures? Nice, huh? Here are some words too.

Anyway, there's a video starting in a few minutes and I guarantee you'll love it... if you're SINCERE, I mean. So, does that sound good? Good! Okay, please take your pamphlet and sit over there a bit. You can watch us set up if you like. Please note how beatific and content we look if you sincerely feel that way. Great! It'll just be a few minutes.
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 22:42:14 (EDT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Don't be scared.
Message:
Gail , really , honestly , these guys above me don't have the final word on the matter . Judith to my mind , is at least thinking in the right direction . The mind is not the problem .
Rather it's what we use the mind for that creates the problem .
I don't believe that Maharaji is anti-mind , per se .
It was M who said , mind is Gods gift to humans . What we think about is our gift to ourselves .
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 22:55:41 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Don't be scared.
Message:
Keith,

You're out to lunch, you with your bizarre punctuation .

How could you know if Maharaji's anti-mind when you don't use yours properly in the first place?

Now get back to your ghetto(s) before we give you a whippin', ya hear?

P.S. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you're lying about Cosmon. That you were Cosmon and just don't have the decency to admit it. Why?

1) Bill does it. Bill assumes that people are Maharaji all the time. Why can't I assume someone's just Keith?

2) Cosmon also put extra spaces before all his punctuation. That's a rare sign of semi-literacy. Only so many of us are thusly afflicted. In particular, you.

3) You said that Cosmon was a 'good friend' of yours. But Cosmon never answered when we asked him if he were you or vice versa.

4) Cosmon disappeared right after we asked if you were he.

5) Cosmon was about as muddle-headed as you.

6) You've imitated people before -- or rather posted under a couple of different aliases.

7) You did not admit that you'd done so when first confronted about those other aliases either.
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 23:24:58 (EDT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'm scared !
Message:
MY , MY , jim , you are a one for honesty and literacy .
Thank the Lord for those like yourself that fight tooth and nail (and brimstone) for the truth and nothing but the truth .
And very special thanks to those who have made it possible
for me to have little ghettos to crawl into .
Afterall , I can only withstand whippings by big strong guys like yourself (honest jim) to the point where I'm almost confessing my sins .
Lordie , Lordie please help Bill and yours truly survive the whipping boys .
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 06:22:31 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Well?
Message:
Are you Cosmon or not?
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 22:59:00 (EDT)
From: Indie Yaweh
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey!
Message:
Oh , bull whappy . Sure , you got the punctuation right , but you can't fool me .
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 23:04:15 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Indie Yaweh
Subject: Hey, Indie!
Message:
Where you been, dude?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 05:09:51 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Don't be scared.
Message:
That is complete and total utter 100% crap and bollocks and lies Keith and that posting you've just done on MMT doesn't just imply that the greasy slimeball is anti-mind, it states it. Out of your own keyboard.
Sorry Keith, but we're on the main forum now and I don't have to restrain myself.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 11:04:36 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Don't be scared.
Message:
Keith: I don't know how long you've been a premie, but M has said MANY times in the past that 'god didn't create mind, YOU did!' If that statement isn't in direct conflict with 'god gave you a mind as a gift' then I don't know what conflict is. Read his quotes and you will experience the 'spinning' for yourself.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 20:26:17 (EDT)
From: Judith
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Don't be scared.
Message:
Keith I would like to add that I wasn't inferring by my post that 'its what you use the mind for' - though I suppose you are free to make up anything you like out of what people say.

What I intended was to question - well what makes the mind different from the eyes, ears etc? Why can they experience the 'holy inner world' and yet the mind, which is also capable of 'feeling' is supposed to be the odd man out, causing all the trouble?

To by-pass my mind I feel that I am by-passing myself. I turn into a sort of 'porridge' person with no sense of self. Melt back into the 'ocean' as he suggests on 'Like the Rain'. Oh, god, the self-denying martyrdom of it all.

He also said to see the thoughts as clouds while you are practicing. You are aware of them but not attached to them. Well that is what all meditation teachers say. Perhaps that's all he ever intended to say - but got a bit carried away?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 20:33:10 (EDT)
From: Judith
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Don't be scared.(cont.)
Message:
Keith I realise in a way you were interpreting what I said correctly - ie why can't the mind go inside and think divine thoughts, just like we're supposed to hear divine sounds etc. I see now how you got that.

Well - that's worth exploring too. Why can't it? Is it because we are only supposed to 'receive' the bliss through our senses, and the mind is a 2 way channel, both generating and receiving. It is definitely the 'generating' part he is trying to get us to shut down, because without the 'receiving' part we couldn't understand Satsang.

But again - what I think is nasty, polluted, bad - only when I listen to him or shut down my thoughts can I realise peace. Well thanks, God, for creating such a mess. Why did you bother?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 23:48:34 (EDT)
From: eith
Email: None
To: Judith
Subject: Don't be scared.(cont.)
Message:
I'd just like to say , Judith , that I generally have no interest to post on this forum anymore , with occassional exceptions , but would welcome any more balanced person like yourself to post on M.M.T as well as here .
Personally , I'd enjoy to explore things with you , there .
I no longer choose to be in an enviroment where a minority of the posters feel justified to be abusive and dis-respectful to those who's views differ greately from their own . And therefore have dis-ordinate degrees of influence on the 'aura' of the room .
I even resorted to abuse myself which I am now quite ashamed of .
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 00:34:11 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: keith
Subject: You're avoiding something
Message:
Keith,

Are you Cosmon? Yes or no?
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 15:30:35 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Judith
Subject: Don't be scared.
Message:
>>>He also said to see the thoughts as clouds while you are practicing. You are aware of them but not attached to them. Well that is what all meditation teachers say. Perhaps that's all he ever intended to say - but got a bit carried away?

That's all I ever interpreted Maharaj's descriptions of thoughts and mind as. I never heeded the injunction to 'stop using thought processes'. In my opinion that was a great premie 'concept' that I didn't agree with. But maybe Maharaji did mean that. I don't know. However I haven't seen it, even with all the quotes. It doesn't matter so much to me.

Even in the ashram I read voluminously. And thought and discussed and investigated all sorts of things. But that was me.

In my opinion there is a time for thoughts and a time for silence. I highly value both. After all these years meditation remains a wonderful tool for me. And I'm just as intelligent as ever. Both are gifts.
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 13:59:01 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: You guys are scaring me!
Message:
Dear Jim,
Glad I happened on this post-funny, true and hopefully helps Gail. That Ron could probably use a little humor also.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 21:42:02 (EDT)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: You guys are scaring me!
Message:
Dear Gail

I don't know whether you're being facetious in your post or not. You're not really letting that bullshit about mind scare you, are you? If perchance you're serious, then recognise that what's getting scared is the same bit of you that MJ's satsang - like the one Jim posted above - has been terrifying for years. And the task now is to get free of that fear, partly by recognising the heavy trip that's been laid on us. The trip of hating and fearing a core part of ourselves. A primary challenge for premies in recovery, then, is to learn to love their capacity to think, analyse, feel, again. Doesn't mean every thought is one you'll ultimately want to settle for. And it can be done, it DOES get better! I've been through hell, really, but now 3 years out from the cult, I'm starting to feel great - no longer chopped up into mind and heart, no longer limited to loving MJ/devotion and nothing much else. You're making the moves to get free - hang in there!

I won't go on, because I'm still not sure whether you were kidding in your post or not. If you were, the above is irrelevant.

Love you

Diz
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 23:43:03 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: Hey Diz.
Message:
I'm not kidding. I feel really black this week. All I have left is my job, daughter and house. I have no friends, no husband, and no GOD!
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 04:33:00 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Hey Diz.
Message:
But you've got REAL courage. To come out and share that, I find very impressive. Don't turn it on yourself Gail. Yeah we're partially to blame for our naivete at the start but there is only one person to get angry with for the rest. Don't know if this is relevant but every posting I do is with the possibility that slimeball is also online lurking.
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 07:38:59 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Gail
Subject: Hey Gail
Message:
Gail, I am so sorry that you are feeling this bad. Please feel free to post more about it if you want to, and if you think it might help you. I'm not going to tell you to 'feel better' because I think that's stupid - you are entitled to have your own real feelings (especially after 27 years of not feeling all right about having negative feelings!) I honestly think what you're going through now is a valid and legitimate reaction to being manipulated for all those years, and to the loss of something that was such a big part of your life for all those years.

I AM worried that you will feel bad about yourself because of this, and I don't think that's valid. I only know you through your posts on forum, but you sound like a really kind and caring person who is very brave and honest. Please don't put yourself down.

Also, at the risk of sounding sappy, I do want to say that another thing that you have is a lot of people who care about you on this forum

Love,
Katie
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 15:35:20 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Hey Diz.
Message:
Sorry to hear that Gail.
Hope things clear and get easier for you.
They usually do eventually, don't they?

Love, Bobby
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Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 at 18:15:28 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Hey Gail.
Message:
Gail: Excuse me, but 'no friends?' You can easily count me as one and I've never met you (I think). I'm not trying to paint a rosy face on your feelings, but don't forget about us. We're here, ok?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 21:48:48 (EDT)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Kissimee
Message:
Thanks again, Jim. I remember that stuff. And that it was heavy. Still makes me shake.

This is a really clear example of the strategy MJ used (uses?) at times: of breaking everyone down by telling them how useless, endangered, stupid they were, and then offering devotion to him as the only solution. I hated that strategy at the time, but it surely worked on me. I crumbled and dove for his feet.

Thanks god I don't have to go through that classic cult conditioning cycle any more.

Diz - free to never attend a program again. Yea!!
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Date: Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 17:49:00 (EDT)
From: Ron Sherwood
Email: SherwoodForest@WebTV.Net
To: Everyone
Subject: Final Words To All
Message:
Dear All: First, to the person who asked why would anyone care to concern themself with me? Allow me to refer you to 'Hanzen' Mon. Sept. 21, 1998 at 19:11:21. Read it from one of the ex's. And thank you Hanzen, your coment was one of only a few expressions of appreciation toward me spending a bit of time on this site.

The next update: Mike, you may be right about m having the time-line wrong concerning Maharaj's flight career. He ma not have recieved his first rating at 9 years old or his jet rating at 13. Yet I do recall hearing that. As special exceptions have been made for talented children. I do know for sure that he was learning to fly props as a pre-teen and jets as a young teenager. Thank you for the insights.

The next update: To all those who insult, call names, belittle and won't even try for a moment to see another point of view at the moment I'll say two things: The most common comment I read was 'It doesn't make sence' To this I repeat: All you are really saying is that at the moment it doesn't make sence to you. Meaning again, the world really was round, when people claimed in was flat. And the second thing is 'spelled out' in ones comment writing me off by saying 'Heck he can't even spell!' That says it all. As everyone of you make spelling errors. Your need to be unduely critical undermines the good you are trying to do. I know you all use this site to vent emotions. Still you might try to be a bit more realistic since it's realism you seek.

On 'Answer my Questions' The first best answer, though I'm aware that I'm walking right into your critical point of view on 'Premie vagueness' is that all your answers exist within inside of you. Since that has been the messege for thousands of years, it's not completely fair to down anyone for saying it, as it may be true. For myself, following my heart, my true heart, not my ideas or emotional additudes, have never failed me. It's that very subtle voice, that gentle guidence within. Distractions will block it out every time. Whether you practice Knowledge or not, we need to all learn to feel and hear it. As it's been said, throughout the ages: It is who we really are.

On Knowledge: Maybe the techniques can be found in books. And maybe others teach them, like Maharaji's family in India. Yet all I know is that it's not in the technique which is only the key which we turn when we practice. It is in something that can't be disrcibed and by no means am I being vague here. When we feel that is to vague, it's because we just don't get it...yet. For myself, I've experienced everything and more then I've read in the history books on this subject by practicing this Knowledge with an open heart. I highly recommend it for every soul on this planet.

On Maharaji's life style, facts and figures: If ever any of you have been in love then you may knowhow good it feels to give of yourself. It never is a requirement, but a joy. Meditation has been called the 1st service. Thus I go there in that joyful state of heart. There at that moment, there is nothing to wait for because there is no room for expectations. And from this place something else can break through, open up further and be enjoyed. Yes Maharaji's 'Dad' (That was cute of one you sayin that.) had something to do with the huge crowd he gathered in 1966: Yet remember that Shri Hans had already made it crystal clear, that Prem Pal would be the one, not books, not other family members; to make this Knowledge available all over the world. And I have no idea how many Premies he still has India. It really doesn't matter to each moment of my life. I'm sure there's still a few.

To close: I've greatly enjoyed these last few days, taking part in the discussion. To the subject of debating and why I didn't care to get into that: Imagine you moved into a new home and everytime you saw your neighbors they wanted to debate the fact of you being there? What would be the point beyond wasting time that could be spent doing more productive things? The home is yours, it's real, it's the place you live...it's a fact in your life. Who needs to debate at that point? Now discussing the neighborhood; changes for the better, events, and confusions, now that's another matter entirely. And of course we all judge. Yet lets's not forget kindness and consideration and allow the other fellow his point of view as you wish to be considered. You feel you've been done on against, yet are now participating in that fashion you deplore.

About Ron Sherwood: You're right whn you say 'He's got this one good!' When I came to Knowledge he was saying we could all have t h a t certain special most precious relationship. It was now being offered to all. THAT'S what I went for! And I was never in the ashram and I never gave him a penny. Yet the last time I went through the darshan line years ago, he stopped it at his feet for me. It's still there for everyone.
Goodbye. I will not be logging onto this site for a good while to come so please don't waste your time addressing things to me. Wishing you all the best. Thank you. Ron
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Date: Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 18:23:34 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: What an idiot
Message:
Fun while it lasted, I guess. I'll have to remember that: you gotta question bud? The answer's within.
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Date: Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 19:00:55 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What an simpleton
Message:
Jim do you think there's something wrong with me, I'm reading this last post from Ron Sherwood, and I'm thinking, sad, sad, with tears welling up & pouring out and I'm thinking when he cracks open and all that pain pours out he's gonna crack bad and I think of that fat bastard destroying someone like him who is so simple it's frightening, ah well such is life, and how many Ron Sherwoods are there out there and how many people topped themselves....
Ah well, tomorrows another day as they say.
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Date: Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 19:10:05 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: What an simpleton
Message:
Hamzen,

General rule of thumb for social workers -- you can't care about them any more than they care about themselves. (Otherwise, you burn out fast).

This goof won't ever think straight. There'll be no waking from nothing, I'm afraid. You know, just like I'm never really going to be a big rock star, etc. etc. Life goes on and most of us die with a bunch of stupid ideas. Ron capitulated a long time ago.
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Date: Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 19:18:36 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: But Jim...
Message:
Jim: Didn't you hear Ron sya that he was going to be a BIG rock star (or whatever)? He said that we would recognize his song when it came out..... Ahhh, the imagination of youth....
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Date: Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 19:35:39 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ron & the d&b's
Message:
I dunno, there was something about each successive post, he struck me as someone desperately trying to keep his head above water by diving deeper and deeper, something's going to break soon, unlike student & others who appear completely detached.

By the way, how did the gig & the country punk track go on Saturday ?

Re drum & bass, apologies by the way for the length of the response from the previous music thread! It struck me that you're into some industrial stuff aren't you, you old toughie you, maybe you ought to keep an ear out for optical, nico & ed rush, optical especially. The 97-? d&b is very dark & metallic, does my head in but might well be up your street.
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Date: Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 21:14:01 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Ron & the d&b's
Message:
Hammy,

I'm into industrial in the sense that if I were signing up for a record (CD?) club, I'd check the 'industrial' box if they had one (which they wouldn't. I'm afraid). The gig went fine. Not our best but okay. Something to do with playing in a poorly lit bar with no spots for the band. Won't let that happen again. But the new song was a lot of fun. I'm now softly committed to always having at least one new tune per gig. Maybe Mr. Sherwood would let me play his once he's secured his publishing deal.

Does Ron feel pain? I don't know. Does CD? These are questions I don't think any of us -- even Keith --are able to answer. If only we could talk to these guys but, alas, that's not possible. So I'll continue thinking not and keep my heart from breaking open beyond control. For now anyway.
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 16:03:07 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim sing Ron's song?
Message:
Jim: I almost choked on my lunch when you suggested singing Ron's song. I can just picture you singing a song about 'god and guru.' Here's a little dialogue in the negotiations between you and Ron:

Ron: Jim I would love it if you'd sing my song...

Jim: Well, Ron it's a really nice number, BUT I would kinda, sorta, maybe like to change a few of the lyrics. Is that ok with you?

Ron: Wellllll, maybe.... what did ya have in mind?

Jim: See this line here that says, 'guru is love?' Well, I'd like to change it to 'that bilious gopher is sh*t!' I didn't want to get to carried away, but I thought it would fit...

Ron: (face gone white, lips hanging to floor, deer-in-the-headlights look in his eyes) Say whaaaaaaa?

Jim: And this line here, where it says, 'his gift is precious?'

Ron: Yeah?

Jim: I'd like to modify it just a little bit to something more like, ohhhh I dunno, like, 'his presence (present?) is worthless.' You know, somethin' like that. Whaddaya think, Ron?

Ron: (pan to Ron, passed out on the floor. All blood drained from his head) gurgle...gurgle...

Jim: Oh, Ron I'm glad you approve.... I'll continue..... I just knew you would see it my way. It'll be much more commercially viable.

Ron: gurgle...gurgle...
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 16:40:21 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Jim sing Ron's song?
Message:
Yes, cute. Maybe when we all recognize Ron's song -- the day a major recording artist sings it everywhere and the earth shivers if it doesn't exactly stand still and the fires stop in Malibu and Monica Lewisnksy has a picnic with Bill, Ken AND Linda Tripp, and Keith learns how to think clearly and CD comes out from behind his rock, and Maharaji admits his childhood explorations in 'love' with his older brothers and swears off the bottle -- maybe then we can all sing Ron's song together. Now won't that be a rush?
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 16:44:22 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim sing Ron's song?
Message:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I should have known I couldn't outdo your sense of humor, but DAMN, I did give it a shot!
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Date: Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 22:30:00 (EDT)
From: Impressed with Ron
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Ron & the d&b's
Message:
I didn't get that at all about Ron. Struck me as a real caring individual. It'll be interesting to hear his music.
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Date: Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 22:53:00 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Impressed with Ron
Subject: Ron & the d&b's
Message:
'Struck me as a real caring individual', me too, but someone with a brain like a marshmellow. As for his music, the thought is too horrific to even contemplate. You can hear it now, sweet melodies, mystical lyrics & an appalling lack of rhythmic drive or pulse & groove (nice phrase Jim), you just know no sense of body awareness.
As I say this I get this image of him sitting there watching the great yeucho at a festival with this sickly sweet grin across his face. For some reason the thought of Ron makes me really sad.
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Date: Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 23:01:14 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Impressed with Ron
Subject: Ron & the d&b's
Message:
I didn't get that at all about Ron. Struck me as a real caring individual. It'll be interesting to hear his music.

Hi Imp,

Alas, after all this time, you are still showing so little promise as a guru-slagger, aren't you? Really, Imp, you need an intensive. Don't tell me about your finances. You know as well as the rest of us that money comes when it's needed (first law of thermodynamics, I think). Plus, what kind of an ex are you, anyway?

So what exactly do you think Ron 'cares' about? Does he care about the truth? NNNOOOOOO! I'd say not. He doesn't give a shit about the facts or where they logically lead. He does care about coming across as a happy little love pump. But what's that worth? Not much, if you ask me.

Remember Marolyn's letter? The one in which she told her old friend that she just couldn't afford to get caught up in all this 'stuff' out here? Tell me, does that make Marolyn 'caring' about her friend or, rather, indifferent and bothered by the details of her life? I say the latter.

No, you really need a workshop, Imp.
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Date: Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 23:25:37 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ron & the d&b's
Message:
'Remember Marolyn's letter?'

Don't know this movie Jim, could you share the plot?
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 09:55:34 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Ron & the d&b's
Message:
A couple of months ago I posted a letter Marolyn had written a long-time 'friend' (i.e. servant with kids the same age as Marolyn's). In it, Marolyn (who was admittedly still convalescing from brain surgey which was, unfortunately, only partly successful as they weren't able to remove her mind, just the aneurism) tells her old 'friend' not to expect anything from Maharaji in the way of answers but rather to keep giving and loving Maharaji. Something like that. In Amaraoo, the 'friend' had heard Maharaji babble on about how we all 'invite' our fates. She'd asked him how that could be in light of such gross injustices such as abused children. Maharaji apparently danced around her question but never answered it. 'Friend' then tried to reach first him, then her good bud, Marolyn, at the residence but couldn't. Finally, she wrote Marolyn a testy letter (or did she finally get a message through? I forget.) Anyway, Marolyn wrote her back this sappy, self-indulgent, ostrich-style premie pamphlet about the importance of remembering only Maharaji's real. The world is just a trap. Keep your problems to yourself because I'm a premie-kind of thing. Oh yeah, isn't he beautiful?

I don't have a copy myself but it's in the archives.
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Date: Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 21:02:26 (EDT)
From: david m
Email: whaler32@aol.com
To: Jim
Subject: About Ron
Message:
Jim....woooooooooow
I haven't Heard that ... and those kind of statements In a very long time. GM still has the magic...eh...dave
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Date: Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 18:31:06 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: Final Words To All
Message:
Ron: I'll waste a little of my time responding (my choice). YOU remember one thing: When you discover that you are following a fraud and when you discover that everything you've based your entire life upon has been pulled out from underneath you, we'll be here (or someone like us). That is one of the main reasons for the existence of this site. They/we will welcome your broken mind with open arms and will assist in your recovery. Now what would you call those that would do this for YOU?
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Date: Tues, Sep 22, 1998 at 19:14:40 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: Final Words To All
Message:
Ron:

RE: To the subject of debating and why I didn't care to get into that: Imagine you moved into a new home and everytime you saw your neighbors they wanted to debate the fact of you being there?

You're here, and you've got a responsibility to others while you're here. Blanket acceptance of M, w/o any critical judgment is not only a disservice to yourself, but to others. Believe whatever you like, but you're 'right' to be free of debate and judgment is entirely in your head.
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 11:01:19 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: wheel miss ya Ron
Message:
Hey Ronny boy,

Jees, a smal one paregraf an I rate two menshuns in yur good bye post! I em honered. Thanks.

Not all peeple hoo cant spel are morons (excuse me Jim, I mean idiots) but you sher are. Take RObyn for exampel. She has a tuff time speling but she is intelligent and insitefull witch yoo are not.

I sinsearly hope you have a nice time sucking fat asses toes. Pleeze keep those cheks and visa paymints cumming. He reely needs them.
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 14:22:12 (EDT)
From: Also Impressed with Ron
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: wheel miss ya Ron
Message:
Very funny, but I'm not that far gone, where I can't see that Ron Sherwood deserves better. Do we prove some of his points correct? Maybe. I'm also impressed with how he seemed to really care.
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 14:40:14 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Also Impressed with Ron
Subject: wheel miss ya Ron
Message:
Dear Also,

Very funny, but I'm not that far gone, where I can't see that Ron Sherwood deserves better.

Glad you liked it. It was meant to be humorous, and of course, critical. I'll try to do better next time, since, I too agree he deserves it.

Do we prove some of his points correct?

Pardon me but why should we prove some of his points ''correct?'' Isn't that his job? Maybe I just don't know what the fuck you are saying here.

I'm also impressed with how he seemed to really care

Maybe I AM ''that far gone,'' but again what are you talking about? Care about what? The BM and his brain sucking cult?
Yeah, I guess he does.
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 12:16:58 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: wheel miss ya Ron
Message:
Gerry, you meaney! Surely we don't have to resort to adhominums.
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Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 13:45:31 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: wheel miss ya Ron
Message:
Sorry Gail, what's an adhominum?
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 18:46:17 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: Before you go, Ron...
Message:
Premies who post to the forum speak of their certainty but never of their doubts. This is, above all, the single most telling factor for me. You have doubts, of course - serious ones at times - but you will never speak of them. You doubt your experience and you doubt Mr Roly-Poly's divinity, but the dissonance arising when you dwell on these thoughts is too painful so you have no option but to shove them to the back of your consciousness and forget about them. Perhaps you pray to Maharaj Ji to take the doubts away; but they never do go away, do they? - and they never will. The chances are, for any still practising premie, that their last day on planet earth will not be spent merging with the light, but wrestling with those very same doubts, and asking themselves, too late, whether they have sold their prize cow for a handful of beans that never sprouted.

What about your doubts, Ron? Would you care to share a few with us. It might at least convince some people here that you are a rational, thinking human being. Never forget, Ron, that practically everybody who posts here used to practise 'knowledge' - many of us for years. We all had those same doubts, and we knew all the tricks to keep the doubts at bay. From your perspective we have probably all given in to them, lost the plot, wandered off into the Maya or something. And it was almost certainly the same doubts that you will never publicly admit to that eventually caused us to jump ship. I now treasure those doubts because they rescued me from something whose effects were personally very harmful.

Maharaj Ji was always right about one thing, of course, and that is regarding the source of those doubts, namely the Mind. He teaches you to fear your mind; never to trust your mind; to get free of that 'crazy' mind. (And it is our minds -yours and mine - that M fears above all, since he knows that once the number of his followers using their minds to confront the difficult questions hits critical mass, the funding will dry up and the whole guru game will be over.)

Remember that Beatles song: 'There's a Place'?

The-e-e-e-re….
There's a place
Where I can go
When I feel low
When I feel blue
And it's my mind
And there's no time
When I'm alone…


That's pretty close to how I now feel about my mind. I love it! It is wonderful. And it is the product of the most incredible, complex thing in the known universe, ie., the human brain. And what a wonderful, stupendous piece of machinery to be born with - and what a pity that people have to creep through life in fear of their minds, rather than celebrating all the things they can, or could be doing with them. I see you write songs. That's good - or potentially that's good. But are you one of those premie songwriters who tell themselves that they're writing 'from the heart'? You're not, of course; you're writing them with your mind. Your wonderful mind (even the yuckiest, sappiest premie song is the product of a wonderful mind).

Anyway, I digress. Let's get back to the doubts. I will try and crystalise a few of them here in the form of questions. I don't expect you to answer these on the forum (though it would be nice if a premie did just that for a change), but perhaps you could take them away with you and think about how you would answer these questions to yourself . I stress these last two words, since you will inevitably already have a whole bunch of standard answers that seem to work well enough when answering questions to other people. But kidding yourself is always that little bit harder than kidding others, I have found.

(1) Tears of Joy

Did you ever ask yourself whether those powerful emotional experiences were ever anything other than
conditioned responses? 'Classical conditioning' is just about the most rock-solid phenomenon in the whole of psychology, and the whole DLM/EV recruitment structure could not be better designed to capitalise on this very simple and natural learning process. The long aspirant period with the frequent combining of M's voice and image with whatever nice sensations you might, at times, be feeling is sufficient for half the task; for the other half it is the learning to associate your inner struggles, pain, freak-outs etc. with your mind. I'm sure you can see this sort of thing going on in other religious groups - maybe the Krishnas, the Moonies, the Jehovah's Wiitlesses or whoever - but do they see it like that? You betcha they don't. Because the nice feelings are real. They cannot be denied. What is unreal, however, is the carefully fabricated association (deliberately or otherwise) between those feelings and the object of their spiritual devotions.

(2) The Knowledge Techniques

We have evolved four primary senses (if you count taste and smell as being one and the same). Their functions are obvious, and all involve interpreting the external world. Did it never strike you as odd that each of the meditation techniques, rather than tapping into something cosmic, involves hijacking one of those senses and diverting it from its proper function to focus on 'inner', basically neutral experiences? For those that want them there are many ways of turning inwards and removing external stressors. You probably believe the 'knowledge' experience to be superior to all the others; the real thing, even. But you don't know that, do you? How do you know your experience to be 'spiritual'? How do you even know it to be M's 'gift'?

(3) The Path

Why don't your meditation experiences become longer, richer or deeper with the passing of the years?
Why does nobody ever 'realise knowledge'?

(4) The All-knowing Master

Gail recently brought news from reliable sources to the effect that Maharaj Ji has finally started talking again about 'the Knowledge of all Knowledges' and himself as 'The All-Powerful Giver'. Many of Maharaj Ji's pronouncements over the years have been very ambiguous, or at least, premie revisionists have managed to re-interpret them. As I see it, however, there is absolutely nothing ambiguous about the word 'all-powerful'.

Do you believe your guru to be 'all-powerful'?

Would you agree that if somebody who is not all-powerful claimed to be all-powerful, then that would be a pretty serious misrepresentation of oneself?

On the other hand, If Maharaj Ji is all-powerful, how come he seemed to be so powerless in the face of his wife's serious illness, and powerless to anticipate his mother's death?
Why is the all-powerful one completely ignorant of what is supposed to happen when we die? (as he admits on a current introductory video)
Why was he powerless to prevent so many premies ending up in long-term psychiatric care or taking their own lives?
Why is he so powerless to resist all the usual worldly desires that mess up the lives of ordinary powerless people?
Why so much alcohol?
Why the drug-taking?
Why the mistresses?
Why does he look so ill, nowadays?
Why do ex-premies outnumber premies by 9 to 1?
Why the grotesque display of wealth?
Why does the all-powerful 'giver' take so much?
Why is the flow of cash strictly one-way?
What evidence do we have for this power, other than M's boastful assertions?
Could it be that you and others like you, are in reality all the power he has?

I have never found the answers to any of these questions 'inside of me', and neither have you. They deserve answers, all the same.

Give it some thought.
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 19:29:58 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Before you go, Ron...
Message:
Very nicely done, Nigel. I have to think about a thing or two that you said, but for the most part, it was brilliant, dude, helpful, and inspiring. Thanks.
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 20:02:27 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Before you go, Nigel
Message:
Nigel, Hopefully you will be on line at the start of one of these
guys visits.
Ron would have probabaly tried to answer.
Although he did skip some other parts of other posts.

How about next time student or whatever that guy uses for
a name next time, passing thru ect, you greet him with one
of these broadsides.
It would be nice to see.
Save the post?
Insert it for the next guy.
Ron might not be around for a while.

I'm looking at the print out of your post about the four essential
ingerdiants of conciousness.
While I can find lots that appears to be good science,
maybe all of it,
I dont find that the conclusion fits the evidence.
I mean, that sure, ok, seems like consiousness is effected
like it is by our biological selves, (anesthesia) ect. chemicals,
bonks on the head and the other catagories.

I dont think I have to reject the biological basis for human
conciousness
I dont think I have to accept the other stated option in your post.
'ghost in the machine--where an independent concious self
somehow inhabits the body without being dependent upon it.'

Would you like to restate the alternate option?

Maybe you aren't in the mood for this subject?
I think the line can be drawn a little different on the above
'other option.'

For any others, Nigels 4 points essential for conciousness were
1 right evolution
2 adequate structural development
3 right brain processes
4 right chemistry
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Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 at 20:30:57 (EDT)
From: Judith
Email: None
To: Nigel - Robyn
Subject: Before you go, Ron...
Message:
Nigel those questions are excellent. A list like this deserves pride of place somewhere upfront on this site or else in the 'greatest hits' section. They really hit a nerve.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 00:13:46 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Ron Sherwood
Subject: Final Words To All
Message:
Dear Ron:

Have you considered the fact that you would not be reading and posting here if all were well with you and your devotion.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 24, 1998 at 11:35:30 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Unless...
Message:
Gail: Unless he's got a messianic complex and is trying to gather all of M's lost sheep! ;-)
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