Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 26 | |
From: Oct 8, 1998 |
To: Oct 23, 1998 |
Page: 5 Of: 5 |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 00:22:18 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: What they REALLY mean Message: The premie web site has a Conversation page threatening to open one of these days. In the meantime, the page says this: Conversations will be a moderated forum where you can express your views about Maharaji and Knowledge. We reserve full editorial rights, By sending us a message you are automatically granting us copyright over your contribution. We will not publish any messages anonymously, so each posting needs to include your first and last names and city and country of residence. More information about 'Conversations' will be posted as we go along and get used to working with this format. Please send your messages to the 'Expressions' section, until we get this section live. We look forward to hearing from you. Now, the conversations I'd like to hear would be the ones between the guys actually responsible for the site. I'd like to be a fly-on-the-wall for some of the discussions about just how to 'moderate' that forum, if and when it opens. First, they've got to be united in their resolve that nary a critical word be ever said about Maharaji. That part's simple. But how are they going to do it? It's supposed to be a forum after all. Will all submissions have to be sent to their central clearing office first? Maybe, but then who's going to man the computer and send on the posts and replies in anything like a timely fashion? No, that won't work. Maybe they'll just moderate the way MMT or the premie page have been. Anyone can post anything but the page guys will constantly patrol on the look out for offensive posts. When they find one, off it goes and on goes a block to your ISP. Even still, won't they feel a little chary of having critical posts up for the short periods they'll survive before detection? Maybe they'll assign a whole slew of trustworthy premies keys to the page so they can have a constant hall monitor like the excessive DLM/EV/WPC/DUO security dodgers so many of us have taken turns playing at over the years. Okay, that part's easy in all but the execution. The point is there will definitely be no critical posts. The harder question is about questioning posts. Posts in which premies actually discuss and, inevitably, question or disagree about things? Where will they draw the line, these webmeisters? Maybe it won't happen at all. Who knows? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 02:07:05 (EDT)
From: x Email: None To: Jim Subject: What they REALLY mean Message: For what it's worth, I'd bet dollars to donuts that the conversations page will never actually go up. It will just stay under construction and then maybe casually disappear. Nobody over there really wants to have a conversation, nobody has anything real to discuss, they just want to submit their generic little non threatening 'expressions'. A conversation would take to much effort to maintain when you consider all the restraints on it. They can't even talk off topic, like we sometimes do here, because that would be chit chat, anathema to premies. I'm issuing a challenge, right now. Prove me wrong premies, get your conversation started! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 07:14:40 (EDT)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: x Subject: What they REALLY mean Message: On the original premie web site there are three interactive mediums. Premie forum, guestbook and messages to Maharaji. The forum is the least popular of these three. It would seem that premies don't want to converse with each other but would rather simply express themselves without any response required. If this is truly the case, any conversations page is going to be dead in the water. It will never get off the ground, censored or not. To go to the original uncensored premie web site click here All premies can post there free of censorship except for the premie forum which is now under the strict control of Shri CD Ji. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 14:18:45 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Sir D Subject: Amazing Message: Sir D, I just read those guestbook and letters entries you provided a link to and I think they demonstrate why Big M is not helped by any kind of free expression, even if it's ostensibly 'positive.' I was actually kind of shocked by some of the entries, especially in contrast to the pablum on enjoyinglife. Liberally mentioned in those entries are terms like: lotus feet, devotion, Satguru, pranam, and statements like: 'my heart will always be begging at your feet,' and, get this one, 'I still realize you are Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Shir Krsna, Bohle Shir Saguru dev!' Maharaji wants desperately to avoid mention of the 'I-am-god' period of his cult. I think he ended satsang for premies for that very reason. If these very sincere, albeit deluded premies say this stuff, it's bad for his current image. One guy even asks what the hell Big M is doing now and whether he is still trying to deliver knowledge to the masses, or rather just 'a select few.' The question is kind of embarrassing for M, given his obvious change in his goals. So far nothing like this has appeared on enjoyinglife, but can they prevent it? It was he kind of thing, and worse, that appeared on premie.com and I think that's why Big M stamped it out with his lotus foot. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 14:32:08 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: JW Subject: Amazing Message: JW: I particularly enjoyed this one: 'Maharaj ji, I was a premie, and after marriage I could not practice. I feel like I am not in touch with you. Please show me a sign.' - What kind of sign does he/she want? A traffic-sign, an astrologic-sign, what? - This stuff HAS to be really embarrasing for M.... I hope the site lasts as long as 'enjoyinglife.' It's the perfect vehicle for demonstrating what makes this cult tick. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 14:22:18 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Mike Subject: Show Me A Sign Message: Yes, that one is great, too. The catch is, ANYTHING can be interpreted to be a 'sign.' Premies used to attach mystical significance to all kinds of things in their lives. Mostly they just made it up and called it grace. How about: 'I hadn't had a bowel movement for 4 days, Maharaji. I felt like I was not in touch with you. I could not practice. I just sat there, and sat there, and nothing was happening. I felt listless, distraught, and my bowl was empty. Then, by your grace, you showed me a sign. The sign said 'fiber.' And since then, everything just started to flow and it was so beautiful. Thank, you my satguru, for everything.' Think they might print that over at enjoyinglife? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 14:34:00 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: JW Subject: Show Me A Sign Message: I love it! I think you should try it! Make it sound truly sincere though so everyone is left wondering.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 17:34:13 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: JW Subject: Bwah ha ha ha ha Message: I spit coffee all over my workstation, JW! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 09:08:16 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: x Subject: What they REALLY mean Message: Just visited the premie web site--yech. It says 'ENjoy yourself and have fun!' They make it very clear that posts not sympathetic to GM will be deleted. It even encourages premies to tattle tale on naughty people who post unsympathetic things about GM so the webmaster can block them. Oh please, if this isn't infantilization, what is it? I mean we all would like to stay at the breast forever but we all must be weaned at some point. And no, these folks don't want to enage in a real conversation. As you say it's too much effort. We (the human animal) are just not meant to stay children forever...that's probably why this 'path' causes people's brains to short circuit after awhile. Everything in them is fighting to become an adult. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 09:48:21 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Jim Subject: What they REALLY mean Message: The easiest way to moderate a forum where people are free to discuss their views about Maharaji is to create a template post. It would read something like: I'm constantly amazed at how Maharaji can keep up his hectic schedule - unselfishly devoting himself to his mission! It's so incredible!!! His message is still the same! It's about love and stuff!! Then, you write a simple script that compares the submitted post to the template. If they match, Bingo!! You approve it. Otherwise you have the script make the necessary corrections before adding it to the database. See? No long delays, no long hours pouring over posts from ex-premies and looking for possibly-threatening use of vowels or consonants! It's pretty easy actually, Jim. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 11:58:06 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jim Subject: What they REALLY mean Message: Jim: I'm sure this quote didn't get by you: 'We want to make it quite clear that none of us belong to any organization, nor do we speak for one, nor do we seek to start one. We are just four independent individuals who feel moved to share our experience.' If THAT isn't a lie (they don't belong to any organization nor do they speak for one), I'm not sure that I'm on the same planet as these folks. BUT... maybe they are right, maybe they don't belong to an 'organization.' What they should say is, 'We don't belong to any recognized organization, we proudly represent a CULT. Come on in and enjoy our lives as mindless robots.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 13:06:00 (EDT)
From: NI Email: None To: Mike Subject: enough already Message: Hi Mike, ever since the 'enjoyinglife' has appeared, it has basically been the main topic of conversation around here. may i suggest something? GET OVER IT this is getting a little redundant and boring, really it looks like that site is here to stay...so, MOVE ON, will ya? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 13:11:10 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: NI Subject: enough already Message: Well, ni (don't you think caps are a little egotistical?), I don't see you striking up any interesting conversations here. But go ahead. What would you like to talk about? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 13:37:28 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: NI Subject: not nearly enough Message: NI: The reason that it's a topic of discussion is because it so CLEARLY displays the CULT attitude. THAT is exactly why we are here on THIS forum. So, if YOU want to move on, where would you suggest we move to????? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 14:01:31 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: NI Subject: Oh yeah...NI Message: NI: BTW, who the hell are you to tell me to move on to a different subject or 'get over it?' Unlike your favorite forum (enjoyinglife), we can actually discuss things here to our hearts content (including THAT forum). We don't have a moderator that decides what we will and won't say, except the very limited rules that are listed on the front page of this forum. The fact that YOU would like to see this forum censored is just another example of your personal attachment to the cult-thought process. Sorry, but I WILL NOT oblige your desire to leave 'those poor souls' on the other site alone. They are CULT MEMBERS and I won't quit deriding that cult until it disappears (and M along with it)! You apaprently see that cult as harmless 'fun.' I see it for what it is: A destructive society, whose sole purpose is to bend the mind of every member, headed by a despot whose desire for adulation and money are exceeded only by the likes of mussolini, hitler, stalin and Jim Jones! - So you see, I DO take M and the discussions concerning him very seriously. Any tool that I can use to prevent anyone else from becoming mired in HIS pit (including deriding THAT forum) will be used! SO... with all due respect... BUZZ-OFF bozo! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 14:20:49 (EDT)
From: humble ni Email: None To: Mike Subject: Oh yeah...NI Message: Yawnnnn.... buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 14:38:26 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: humble ni Subject: Typical Message: humble(?) ni: That is EXACTLY the type of response that I was expecting. Isn't it wonderful how people can 'read' your mind? Oh, wait a minute, since you are trying to shut your mind down, there is nothing to read, right? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 18:35:58 (EDT)
From: Laura Email: None To: Ni and Mike Subject: ni, You are the bore Message: and a jerk. And I would like to say to Mike - thank you Mike, for being on top of things and for being here on the forum. I enjoy reading your posts and like your point of view. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 10:26:57 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Mike Subject: Oh yeah...NI Message: You know, Mike, I'm inclined to agree with NI. If people are happy with M, let them be. I don't understand, myself, how this can be, but if they claim they're happy, fine. Let them have their place in the sun. My concern is for the people who are disillusioned with M & K and could use a helping hand breaking free. Before this site sprang up, there was no place for someone like that to turn. You either had to be strong enough to break free on your own or you just got sucked in further each day, surrounded by nothing but grinning, pro M zombies. Now, because of this site, premies teetering on the fence have got the support they need. They're the only ones I care about. Guys like NI... fuck 'em. People who have yet to join the cult, well, as sad as it sounds, there's a sucker born every minute. M will promise to fulfill their every hope and dream and they'll be sucked in, just like we were. In time, maybe they'll see through it, maybe they won't. Maybe they'll find what they were looking for. Who knows? There's enough premies who claim they have. I'm not going to argue with them that they haven't. I'm not so sure deriding enjoyinglife.org is going to help curb membership in the cult. It just looks like a bunch of guys throwing tomatoes, to me. I'm not sure that's going to help anybody, except maybe the guys throwing the tomatoes who are getting a charge out of throwing them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 10:56:21 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Oh yeah...NI Message: Jerry: Not a bad point, Jerry. But, to me, THAT site is the epitome of cult-think (in action). All of the pablum that is spewed there, concerning M, defies any rational, thinking person's understanding of truth. I'm not deriding the site, I'm deriding the content. The outright lies and revisionism that are occuring there bug the hell out of me. It's like they are saying M never insinuated that he was god and ashrams never existed, etc. I think we SHOULD point those out when we find them. My quote in my previous post was an example of an outright lie. Saying that they represent 'no one else' is as false as when the Krishna people grow their hair and misrepresent their affiliation with that organization. I don't think we should let them get away with it. It's just my take, but I think it is reasonable. - BUT, you are right.... I LIKE tomatoes.... he he he. ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 12:22:10 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Mike Subject: the disclaimer Message: Dear Mike, When you say that the enjoyinglife site claims to represent 'no one else', I assume you're talking about the disclaimer: We want to make it quite clear that none of us belong to any organization, nor do we speak for one, nor do we seek to start one. We are just four independent individuals who feel moved to share our experience. IMHO, they have to say that, so Maharaji can cut them loose if they start posting something that might embarass him. So it's not really lying, it's the only way premies can get a page on the Internet. The other premie site had a disclaimer too, but there was a little more freedom and honesty about the contributions (yeah, Jim, I know, Mili told some guys to shut up, but he didn't delete their posts). Anyway, the other site came down, and I'm sure these people want their site to stay up. And obviously the premies really want a place where they can communicate with each other, in however guarded a fashion. I do sympathize with that. As for the revisionism, I'm all for pointing it out when it occurs. I hate that kind of stuff almost as much as JW does. But otherwise, the site doesn't bother me that much - I think it's boring, actually. Regards, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 13:23:28 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Katie Subject: the disclaimer Message: Katie: Thanks Katie. I understood the disclaimer as such, but it makes it sound like the forum is 'independent' of any outside influence, which is patently untrue. I guess I'm picking nits, but that's me... sometimes... he he he ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 12:46:04 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Mike Subject: Oh yeah...NI and other premies Message: Thanks to this ex-premie.org site, I have broken free of this mind-sucking cult. If it had not been for the help and information of the kind, understanding people here, I would still be planning my next vacation at the Lord's feet. My Wednesdays, Fridays and Saturdays would be all planned--go to the videos. My life would be on hold while I procrastinated about meditating (you know--one more coffee and then I'll go meditate). I'm still carrying a lot of anger, hurt, and garbage from my days in Guru Maharaj Ji's cult, but it's getting better. At least, I don't have to do SATSANG, SERVICE, MEDITATION AND DARSHAN anymore. How about you? Is it really your joy to practice? Didn't you join MJs cult to be free? Are you really free? For me, as time went on, the payoffs (bliss) got smaller, the price got bigger and the joy of this lifestyle diminished; my free will to choose diminished the most. This man, MJ, is orchestrating your life. He cannot control his own desires and lifestyle (smoking, drinking, drugs, extra-marital affairs, tax evasion, misappropriate of charitable donations). You continue to do his bidding and tow the party line. THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE! Have you read this entire site over? People who were a lot closer to MJ than you are have long since left the fold (they actually spoke to the guy and watched him spin his web). Why? HE IS A FRAUD. K is nothing more than a meditation. What proof do you have that this is the GOD within? Your experience is belief based, not reality based. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 19:15:18 (EDT)
From: other premie Email: None To: Gail Subject: Oh yeah..nt Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 14:36:24 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Mike Subject: Right, Mike Message: Excellent point Mike, I agree. ButI agree with Jerry that if people want to follow the Big M and say they are having a good time doing it, that is there business and I am not about to tell them they shouldn't. But, as you say, if then start spouting nonsense, revisionism, and outright lies that I know to be so from my own involvement, somebody has to point that out, otherwise people who haven't had the experiences we've had can get duped, and people who are thinking about abandoning the cult might be swayed to stay without somebody pointing out the lies. By the way, I can think of at least 20 premies who have defected from the cult since this website has been on line. And these are only the ones who have posted. I'm sure there are a lot more. Speaking the truth and encouraging thought about the cult is very powerful. That's why Big M does everything he can to prevent that from happening. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 14:49:13 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: JW Subject: Right, Mike Message: That's great news. I agree w/ everything you said. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 19:41:07 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Mike Subject: Ashrams and tomatoes Message: Mike, I think the worst thing M ever did was to attempt to sweep the lives of the ashram premie under a rug. I don't understand how any premie who once lived in an ashram can remain devoted to Maharaji. That reeks of low self esteem to me. Don't these premies realize that what M is doing, in essense, is telling them to take their devotion and shove it? I mean, if he wasn't intent on presenting a new image that revises, make that abolishes, his past, then maybe it wouldn't be so bad. But this guy just wants to act like ashrams never existed, like he feels foolish for ever having recommended them. If I had been an ashram premie, I'd probably be throwing some tomatoes at employingjive, myself. In fact, in the interest of fellowship and solidarity, maybe I'll go on over and throw a couple anyway. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 19:50:08 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Ashrams and tomatoes Message: I have the same reaction. I almost feel that my little 6 year experience as a premie (I've figured it out--it was 6 yrs not 4) was not that hard to recover from b/c I didn't live in the ashram. I am enraged at how the ashram premies were treated. I have talked with many of the ones who were left like children in the wind with so little survival skills, so many health problems, and they were ready bait for sexual pirhanas. It makes me want to scream. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 20:29:59 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Ashrams and tomatoes Message: I have the same reaction. I almost feel that my little 6 year experience as a premie (I've figured it out--it was 6 yrs not 4) was not that hard to recover from b/c I didn't live in the ashram. I am enraged at how the ashram premies were treated. I have talked with many of the ones who were left like children in the wind with so little survival skills, so many health problems, and they were ready bait for sexual pirhanas. It makes me want to scream. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 20:32:30 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Ashrams and tomatoes Message: Jerry, I agree, but recently I got another perspective. I have spoken with a former ashram premie who is still a premie,and who has been more honest with me than most other premies about the ashrams and the way Maharaji was in the 70s. This person admits that Maharaji really screwed up in his early years, and calls that his 'immature' years, but says he has matured and has improved. This person also admits that some of the stuff premies say on enjoyinglife.com, that it was all the premies' fault and Maharaji had nothing to do with the ashrams, devotion, and Maharaji's 'I-am-god' period, are 'a pile of crap.' But to get beyond the resentment and anger this premie felt towards Maharaji for the ashram years, and to maintain involvement with him, this person said this involved 'forgiving' Maharaji for all the 'misdirection' and his false portrayal as god,in the same way one might 'forgive' parents who were abusive to their children. This premie claims to have done this, has now moved on, and says practicing knowledge and seeing Maharaji is enjoyable despite the fact that he messed up her life 15 years ago. From what I gather, this person does this, because of the love this person has for Mahararji. Apparently, because of that, this premie is willing to cut Maharaji endless amounts of slack. I frankly don't understand this 'forgiveness' business. To me, I didn't even know Maharaji so 'forgivenes' is absurd in that context. Also, even if you 'forgive' someone, you don't forget or revise the past. And how can you say Maharaji has 'matured' when he STILL hasn't even admitted that he ever committed any errors whatsoever,and instead tries to cover-over the period? He completely avoids any responsbility, which to me, is the antithesis of 'maturity.' And it certainly doesn't seem like 'forgiveness' is deserved. Sometimes I think the 'forgiveness' idea is just a rationalization technique used to hold a belief system together. By saying you 'forgive' the perpetrator, it keeps you from having to look really objectively at what the perpetrator did. It removes the significance of it. So, you can admit it happened, but you just say it doesn't matter to you anymore, because you 'forgive' those events. I find this rationale preferable to what a lot of premies do -- just revise the past and lie to themselves and the world about what happened or blame someone else for what happened, like themselves or other premies. But it is still troubling to me nonetheless. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 20:48:23 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: Ashrams and tomatoes Message: Joe, I commend your effort to acknowledge your friend's attempt at honesty. Unfortunately, though, I think when you're dealing iwth a blatant fraud artist like Maharaji you're in the 'no-such-thing-as-partially-pregnant' zone. Really, the notion of these guys 'forgiving' him for something he vehemently denies in the first place is outrageously contrary to common sense and human nature. So what's left? The new age, that's what. Next time a premie tells me they forgive Maharaji for lying to them in the seventies and wasting a lot of their time, idealism and money, I'll ask them this: if that's how you feel, why don't you write him a letter expressing just what you're forgiving him for? No one would write that letter because no one would expect Maharaji to receive it in the spirit intended. Well, that's so obvious, isn't it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Oct 14, 1998 at 12:55:47 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Ashrams and tomatoes Message: And another thing, in addition to writing a letter to M, which some MAY have actually written, I don't know, is to be honest about this need to forgive his errors and the damage his errors caused, as part of the 'Lives' entries at enjoyinglife. There needs to be some honest, public discussion of this, and there isn't. Even people who believe he screwed up, aren't about to say it, nor discuss their process of 'forgiving' him for what he did. For some reason, premies, whether they acknowledge the 'errors' or not, feel the need to protect Big M at all cost. Frankly, I think this isn't done out of love, it's done out of fear. The fear comes for the same reason premies who post here are usually paranoid of anyone discovering their identity. They fear ostricism from other premies, and they fear humiliation among premies for having done something that Big M doesn't like. Can you imagine the terror in a premie's mind if Big M at some program publicly said that some premie said thus and such on the internet and it made it harder for him to do his perfect master job? The premie would be devestated. The other fear is that Big M just might be god, and who wants to do something wrong to get on the wrong side of god? Better to do nothing, or stay within the prescribed, acceptable behavior, like blaming yourself and other premies for Big M's screwups. Plus, Maharaji is like an alcoholic parent. His behavior is unpredictable. I always felt this way as a premie, and of course, we described it all as 'lila.' One time it might be acceptable to talk about satguru and devotion, and another time it might not be. It just depends on his whim at the time. Hence, like the child of a violent, alcoholic parent, you are always afraid to do much of anything, certainly nothing to draw attention to yourself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 21:10:16 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: JW Subject: Ashrams and tomatoes Message: I am starting to get punch-drunk from sleep-deprivation. Been up w/a sick child 2 nights in a row. I'm starting to post things 2X here. On the topic of forgiveness: I think it is good to forgive (for your own well-being) but if someone wrongs you in a big way, you can forgive, but should be very very cautious in future. Dr. Laura Schlessinger says if someone steals your camel, you can forgive, but tie your camel up in a different place next time. In other words, don't be a schnook, use your common sense. I'm glad that that premie is realistic about GM's limitations. That is the kind of work we do when we forgive our parents--we realize that they worked with what they had at the time, we realize they are human and therefore, we allow them their imperfections. But I gotta tell you, GM and his ilk were telling people to surrender to him..he was being held up in every way as way above us....you know, that premie will truly forgive the whole scene when she walks away and sees herself as an equal to GM..it occurs to me that that's what we do when we forgive our parents, we accept that they are our equals, no big authority over us. I am exhausted gotta rest good night. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Oct 14, 1998 at 08:37:35 (EDT)
From: Diz Email: None To: Helen Subject: Premies as children Message: Hi Helen Interesting point. MJ places his followers in the role of children - and pretty devalued ones at that (if a child of mine had some problems with me, I wouldn't tell him/her to 'sit on it', I would try to listen even if I didn't expect to like what I was about to hear. I mightn't take it too well at first, but I'd work through that because hey, I just naturally happen to love my kids). As I move further and further away from the whole MJ scene (after over 20 years' involvement - I was pretty dumb) I feel less anger personally. What about those who are still caught up? I'm certainly not going on any sort of crusade to save their souls - I HATE prosletizing. I do think it's really important that an alternative point of view is readily available. This site is very important for that reason. I think you're right about the push to grow up. I felt that strongly, wanted to start having an adult to adult relationship with MJ. Some chance! Though I think some of today's premies would say this has happened for them. The main 'adult' thing you were supposed to do as a premie, so far as I could see, was to handle your doubts by yourself. I guess once you interalise the values and beliefs (one of which is, of course, that there are no values and beliefs), then it's easy enough to think you're self-directed - MJ's endless videos are just a bit of inspiration, no values and beliefs transmitted at all! And now, back in the mainstream, I feel like I've got a fair bit of growing up still to do. Thank you for your posts. Strikes me that you're both insightful and your own person. Keep it up. Hope your son/daughter is feeling better, and you got some sleep Love Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Oct 14, 1998 at 18:09:58 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Diz Subject: Premies as children Message: Hey Diz, Thanks for the encouragement! ENjoying reading your posts too, hadn't seen any before today. I just discovered this website a week ago. I just wrote a manifesto/clarification about forgiveness work to Mike which clarifies what I was trying to say last night in my sleep deprived state. I wasn't trying to imply that we all go around forgiving GM. He doesn't deserve it (IMHO)esp. since he has never acknowledged any wrongdoing. I was just trying to make an analogy (a very obtuse one) about locus of control issues, authority issues, and the forgiveness work I've done re: my parents. I AM still angry at GM--especially after finding this website. I haven't really been involved for a long time, but I realize now I still was tied into it in some weird way, feeling 'grateful' because I've still been meditating and having a good expereience with it. I am angry at myself that when I was real involved with it I was so wrapped up in MY experience and MY needs that I ignored very destructive things that I was seeing in the ashram, etc. I think that this sort of narcissism--of being so concerned with gratifying myself that I looked away from obvious wrongdoing--is evil. ' The CHildren of the Lie' by Scott Peck helped me sort out this idea of evil... This probably sounds very intense but I really do believe that some people are just plain evil. I can't believe that with all the strength I have gained over the years I didn't have GM completely figured out before this website. I'm so thankful for the info on this site. I agree with you about proselytizing being obnoxious and that we cannot 'save' our premie friends. But I believe we should affirm their own reasoning abilities and gut instincts as much as we can and that we should offer our own, honest considered opinions to them on the topic of GM. After all, friends should be able to discuss and disagree w/out disrespecting each other. Thank you my daughter is much better now. You are right about how if we were treated like devalued children, whose opinions thoughts and perceptions weren't significant.. I, too, strive to keep the lines of communication open with my child (she is 6) and I try to acknowledge when I've made a mistake by apologizing to her. This website is great, I'm enjoying it a lot! Helen the Opinionated Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Oct 14, 1998 at 18:39:53 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Helen Subject: Owwww..... Message: Helen: HEY(!) You are 'striking' at the last bastion of my basic belief system.... People are basically EVIL????? NO WAY... he he he he he. I tend to believe that people are basically good, by nature. I can't look into the eyes of an infant and see anything that looks like 'evil' in there. But then again, I'm not sure what 'evil' looks like.... he he he. In case you don't know me well enough, yet, I'm ribbin' ya! - Helen the Opinionated(?).... I like it! It's kind of like Helen of Troy, only better! BTW, I think that when a person is 'thinking' enough to call themselves opinionated, they are well on their way to recovery (IMHO, of course). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Oct 15, 1998 at 17:20:34 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Diz Subject: Premies as children Message: Hey Diz I been thinkin about what you said about how GM expected us to handle our doubts by ourselves. So true. Also, how it was presented as this whole values-free trip so that it appeared that we were thinking for ourselves. It was presented like this: He was offering perfect happy energy that we were welcome to tap into or not into--it was our choice. We could keep our religions, our values, etc (they were floppys, he was the hard drive). But it wasn't so simple;. It became such a big distraction/preoccupation once we really started getting into it. It was hard to hold onto cherished values, hard to really work through doubts. Our floppies just weren't compatible with the hard drive that he offered. My Unitarian upbringing balked at the money trip, so while I continued to not be materialistic myself, I was worshipping a Guru who was the ultimate materialist. What a disconnect that is! I think that he presented it this way as a values-free-handle-your-doubts-yourself-trip so that when people freaked out he wouldn't have to accept any responsibility. But it's pretty irresponsible that he didn't address some of those other things so essential to our practical life here on earth. He was a big distraction from a truly religious life, in the sense that I've come to understand religion. Religion in my opinion, should deal precisely with those practical things. Didn't mean to get so intense with you last night going off about the nature of evil, etc. I think I was on a roll!--Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Oct 15, 1998 at 22:04:14 (EDT)
From: Diz Email: None To: Helen Subject: Premies as children Message: Interesting analysis, Helen. I agree that any leader who claims to be addressing the fundamentals of life does need to struggle with the questions which spring from its practicalities. Are you a Unitarian now? I don't know much about them, but have seen a list of their values and was impressed. The other big thing that MJ does which doesn't fit with the idea that it's all value-free, is he goes around talking at people, constantly. And then puts in on video, so they can all listen again and again. There's no way you can listen to one person, with no ability to say 'hey, I don't know about that...', and not absorb their beliefs and values. Particularly if they're saying, and you're BELEIVING, that they're the person on the planet who is most cluey about life. I know premies used to say that you should 'listen with your heart and not your mind'. How do you do THAT?? If I was teaching a beautiful meditation, and I wanted to convey it with as few strings as possible, but I still wanted to encourage people to meditate, I think I'd encourage people to get together every now and then, just to meditate. Not at international events, just locally. If this is MJ's purpose, I cannot see how he thinks it's served by all these words he pours forth. That belief that there are no beliefs is very insidious. Stops people questionning the underpinings of MJ's message. Of course, premies would say that the underpinning is 'the experience'. I think it's very interesting to recognise that deep inner experience can be interpreted in many ways - the MJ/Hindi way is just one. Quakers, for instance, put a social justice spin over their experience of sitting in silence. Fundamentalist Christians have their own interpretation of the 'bliss' they experience. Gotta get off this machine. Love Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 16, 1998 at 22:58:28 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Diz Subject: Religion Message: Hey Diz The only thing about the Hindi/ex-premie thing is that we really didn't have a very thorough understanding of Hiduism (at least I didn't). If we had been brought up in the Hindu culture we may have had some other teachings to balance out some of the not so healthy teachings we absorbed fm GM I agree that truth and religion can be recognized & expressed in many different ways. The church I go to now is not a Unitarian church, it's actually a denomination called United Church of Christ that is driven by the social justice teachings of Jesus. I was raised Unitarian and I am very thankful for that. The church I was raised in was very active in the Civil RIghts movement and was predominantly African-AMerican. Then my family moved to the suburbs and I did not find the Unitarian churches in the suburbs to be as exciting. The ministers water down their sermons to please everyone and thus end up challenging no one. I am really generalizing here--of course the Unitarian church does a lot of wonderful things. I sung in the choir for 6-7 years at the Uniitarian church I used to go to (in my area) & still have a lot of ties there. I don't go very often to my new church, and haven't even become a member yet. It's very tolerant, non-fundamentalist, the choir director's Jewish, the minister's wife is into the Goddess --people are accepted wherever they are at. I like it because it challenges me which I really need, and the minister is just a wonderful man who has done a lot in the community for a long time. I am finding a lot of practical wisdom in Christianity and in Judaism. If I had any guts, I'd convert to Judaism, but it's too much of a cultural stretch and I'm too lazy to change my life around that much. I think Judaism is a beautiful religion. And its teachings are very practical--for example the Sabboth as a day of rest with family, one of the mitzvots (commandments) is to not gossip because gossip creates evil, etc. Anyway, I have always been interested in religion. But people don't need religion to be good, and I think being good is the most important thing. G'night Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Oct 14, 1998 at 11:39:20 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Helen Subject: Parents Message: Helen: You got me thinking a bit concerning the difference between parents and M. I can forgive my parents for alot of things that I think they did wrong, EVEN if they never apologized. BUT, there is one heck-of-a big difference between my parents and M: My parents REALLY do/did love ME! They took the time to try to get me to do things right. They may not have always been right, but they gave a damn about ME, PERSONALLY. All M cares about is the size of my wallet. He couldn't care less about me or anyone else (his behavior past and present proves it!) My parents, on the other hand, never cared if my wallet was fat. All they cared about was my well-being. That's the difference, in a nutshell, and it's not one that we should take lightly when we're talking about forgiveness of the variety that JW's friend was referring to (IMHO). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Oct 14, 1998 at 17:31:05 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Mike Subject: Parents Message: I agree Mike! I think I was talking a lot out of my own personal experiences. You are very fortunate that you felt unconditional love fm your parents. That is a blessing. My family situation was such that I had to forgive my parents for a lot of stuff that some people would find unforgivable. That is why I used that analogy. I'm not suggesting some kind of 'turn the other cheek' stuff. Perhaps forgiveness is the wrong word...perhaps it's seeing things clearly for what they are...and having understanding from an 'objective reality' standpoint. Yes, that is the word I am looking for, understanding. For me, the objective reality was that alot of the shit that happened to me as a child really had very little to do with me, & it wasn't my fault. The forgiveness work freed me to stop feeling like a victim and to stop broadcasting to everyone around me that I was a wounded little soul. It was part of becoming an adult who could no longer blame my own behavior on the fact that I had a painful childhood. I forgave my parents from a position of strength, not weakness. I decided to forgive them. I call the shots now, I decide when I see them, etc. I'm sort of getting off topic here & on no way am I trying to imply that all family situations should be forgiven. Again, forgiveness is maybe the wrong word because it sounds weak. I don't want anyone to be weak. It's about taking one's power back. And GM doesn't deserve forgiveness (IMHO)--Especially since he hasn't accepted any responsibility or made amends in any way. That's not what I meant, that we should all go around forgiving GM. I was referring to that premie who said she had forgiven GM--if forgiveness is what she is into--then I was just making the analogy that a lot of forgiveness work involves a shift in perception re: authority and locus of control issues. I probably wasn't making much sense last night. My nuerotransmitters weren't firing too well!!! I hope I'm making sense today. I enjoy the discussion, my 'ex-premie brother'! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Oct 14, 1998 at 17:58:40 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Helen Subject: Parents Message: Good on ya, Helen! I really mean that! It's VERY hard to get control over an abusive relationship and it sounds like you've had more than one to deal with, too. I have alot of respect for anyone that succeeds in doing what you had to do. - No Helen, I wasn't implying that YOU were comparing parents to M. The thought had just crossed my mind because the subject of parents and M came into the same discussion. You are right, my parents were 'normal,' if you will. Although my mom did commit suicide when I was a young teenager (so I guess THAT wasn't quite so normal, but she did love me). She, obviously, can't ask for my forgiveness, but I have forgiven her. She made a BIG mistake and took herself away from us way too soon. But, I can forgive her because I KNOW that she loved us and always wanted the best for us. This was the kind of comparison I was drawing. M never gave a hoot about US. He never cared that premies committed suicide because of his inattention and deliberate mind-bending. As long as the funds flow in, he doesn't give a damn about anyone. He does what he 'must' to ensure the funds don't dry up. Does he deserve forgiveness? NO WAY (as you said). His actions haven't proven that he even deserves to be considered for forgiveness, much less any action taken in that vein on my part. - Actually Helen, I consider the word 'forgiveness' to be a power word. It's something that only 'I' can bestow, if you know what I mean. No one can 'take' forgiveness from me, I have to 'give' it. But, I guess that's all semantics. I DO understand where you are coming from on that issue and I agree with you, no holds barred! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Oct 14, 1998 at 18:26:13 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Mike Subject: Parents Message: Thanks Mike, I guess you are on line now too. I am so new to the internet... I hope that your knowledge that your mom loved you comforts you. I'm sorry you lost her. You know this realization that GM doesn't give a shit about anything but $ has me reeling all this week. I feel so angry at myself for buying into it. Even though I 'left' the scene because it was making me crazy, I still held the attitude that GM was some kind of valid spiritual teacher for some. I bought it that his wealth cars, etc. were 'gifts' from his devotees, and that he wasn't attached to any of it. I'm so glad I am free of it once and for all. It's like I had cut free from the tree but there were still little roots connecting me with GM. This week, thanks to this website, I have taken a machete and cut those roots and proudly declared my emancipation from Guru trips of all kinds. I like your definition of forgiveness as a power word. Thanks, Mike, Helen the Sobered Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Oct 14, 1998 at 18:52:39 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Helen Subject: You been drinkin???? Message: Helen: JUST KIDDING! I know, the money thing was a hard pill to swallow. We (or should I say 'I') really rationalized it alot when I was active. I made more excuses for his opulent lifestyle than I care to recall. Don't be too angry with yourself, he is a very good manipulator. It's pretty easy for us to see now, but when I was being manipulated, I didn't see it at all. It was only when a couple of GLARING things happened that I had to admit to myself that it was a sham. I felt pretty embarrassed, too. Then I got pissed at myself. Then I got pissed at HIM! That may not be the correct order for the normal recovery, but that's the order that it happened to me. When I stepped back and asked myself, 'why would he do this?' the answer was starring me in the face: M.O.N.E.Y, how to get it, how to keep it, how to make it a continuous (infinite?) flow. Ahhhh, the Guru game. Promise people the world, their heart's desire, then reduce their expectations, remove their personal power and let them 'think' that everything is fine as long as they 'practice.' 'This is toooo easy!' What a plan! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Oct 14, 1998 at 19:03:02 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Mike Subject: You been drinkin???? Message: Me, drinkin? Sckooze me, I gotta go ta, ZZZZZZ, huh? Oh, hi Mike. Me drinking? Never touch the stuff! ;) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Oct 14, 1998 at 22:46:19 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Brian and Katie Subject: Read this, Shri Webmasters Message: Brian (Shri) and Katie (assistant Shri:), There are a few posts on here tonight about people 'breaking free'-check out posts by Memphis Belle and Helen if you haven't read them yet. Beats a pat on the back for all those hours programming, eh? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Oct 14, 1998 at 12:37:08 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Helen Subject: Ashrams and tomatoes Message: Helen, Excellent point, and I agree. You can forgive, but you don't continue subjecting yourself to the abuse. [I also think that what Maharaji did is indicative of the kind of 'master' he is and so one would tend to reject him for his track record alone.] But I think implicit in what that premie was telling me was this belief that Maharaji and his cult aren't damaging anymore. Maybe it was damaging in the past, with ashrams, devotion, total dedication, and all the rest, but now, that's the past and over with and so this premie feels one can forgive and move on. What this premie told me was that most of the ex-premies are trapped in the 1977-1983 period if Maharaji, when things have really change -- he has 'matured' although this premie admits that a lot of the premies haven't 'matured,' hence they say the stupid stuff they say over on enjoyinglife.com. My response to this, which this premie apparently didn't have an answer for, was that I have communicated with a good dozen or so recent defectors from Maharaji's cult right here on thisi forum, and they say the cult is still very destructive to people, even now in the 90s, and so this idea that all the bad stuff is in the past just isn't true. Again, apparently this person had no response for this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 12:09:06 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Agree with Jerry (nt) Message: but you guys already knew that anyway, right! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 13:46:54 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Katie Subject: I wish I was camping - Off top Message: Katie: I'm sitting here working my little hynie off and listening to an old Pink Floyd tune called, 'Grantchester Meadows.' A really beautiful old song, really. It always did/does remind me of a place that I used to spend weeks at a time camping (living?) in. Just an idyllic spot on this planet that is my 'haven.' I wanna go.... darn it! - Ok, ok, enuf whining on my part..... he he he. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 08:52:38 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: NI Subject: Never enough already Message: ever since the 'enjoyinglife' has appeared, it has basically been the main topic of conversation around here. may i suggest something? GET OVER IT this is getting a little redundant and boring, really it looks like that site is here to stay... so, MOVE ON, will ya? I can understand how you would think that site is here to stay. Certainly its appearance is a big deal, given Maharaji's record of being a control freak when it comes to what premies are encouraged to say about him and what gets them a sound spanking from some EV representative. And it's been up for a couple of weeks now, which is the qualifier in Maharaji-Land (where His message is still the same means that it hasn't changed this week yet). But they're still the new kids on the block, and aside from the Before pictures contained in the posts which are allowed there having a beneficial value to us Afters, those of us who have been in this neighborhood as long as we have know that there is still another shoe left to fall. When will it hit? Beats me. But it will definitely drop. The devoted who run the site may have omitted pictures of The Little Fraud, and may tap-dance around the central position that he occupies in their lives, but he's definitely aware of the site. Elan Vital has regularly monitored this forum on at least 2 continents, and sites which better served the premie community wilted and blew away at the first cold blast. Maharaji doesn't want the internet to be used as a source of information (Oracle that he his), and since EV has yet to establish a web presence indicating yet another about-face by him, I find it hard to believe that he's happy about the premie grapevine at events buzzing with news of enjoyinglife.org's existence. Tough Shit, Prempal. Read em and weep. Because those who have posted there only new about the site because they've been reading this forum. The funny part is how EL.O published their site HERE where they knew it would be best propagated!! Forget Yahoo, Excite, and the others! Get the word out via The Source!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 09:46:36 (EDT)
From: NI the bore and jerk repe Email: None To: Brian Subject: Never enough already Message: 'Maharaji doesn't want the internet to be used as a source of information ' Brian, i don`t think you really know what Maharaji wants or does not want...besides, 'times they are a'changin' like Dylan sang a long time ago... we shall see... and, if everybody really wants to keep reading about the enjoyinglife site, go ahead, knock yourselves out! i for one just thought it was kind of getting boring and repetitive...but it is just 1 opinion, i guess Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 23:01:44 (EDT)
From: Helen Clark Email: None To: Everyone Subject: For shame Message: The thing that broke my heart today was reading Katie's journey story about all the premies with health problems in the ashram who were reluctant to use the ashram funds to see a doctor. FOR SHAME, GURU M. I wonder how many premies and ex-premies are walking around with autoimmune diseases and other chronic health problems because of lack of proper medical care? Not to mention all the health problems that go along w/ the stress of 'total surrender'. Makes you wonder how this character can sleep at night. How frightening not to have a conscience. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 19:12:03 (EDT)
From: Helen Clark Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Thank you Message: Jim, thank you for the book suggestion. I will definitely read it. As per the embarrasing memories, I try not to be too hard on myself about them although they are hard to deal with. Hey, it could be worse...I could be Monica Lewinsky... or Brian McDermott for that matter! REading the experiences of everyone on the web site is very helpful b/c I see that I was not the only one schnookered. ANd I am relatively un-scathed by the experience (after about ten grand spent on therapy and acupuncture, that is). It's horrible to think that people have put decades of their lives into this and given it their all, and for what? It was all about lining GM's pocket, wasn't it? He doesn't give a shit about his devotees, does he? I'd puke, but a song from the musical Oliver! sung by another lovable crook keeps running through my mind: 'In this world one thing counts, in the bank large amounts...you've got to pick a pocket or two..!' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 13:40:51 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: This one's too funny to miss Message: Here's Jaimie Hendry joining in, expressing her gratitude for nothing: 'Knowledge I have known about Knowledge from childhood and I know it has been the companion that has held my hand and enabled me to appreciate the gift of life. I have not received Knowledge, I am just enjoying being an aspirant.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 13:50:11 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Jim Subject: This one's too funny to miss Message: That truly takes the cake for all-time stupidity. Jaimie definitely has what it takes to receive Knowledge--wonder what's taking so long? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 13:55:37 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: Jim Subject: This one's too funny to miss Message: Jim, Jaimie Hendry is Bobby & Barno Hendry's SON, Belkis's nephew. How nepotistic that site is, as it's it's leader. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 14:00:42 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: jethro Subject: PS Message: Bobby was/is (one of) prempal's cooks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 22:24:55 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: jethro Subject: Bobby is still MJ's Cook and Message: a great guy, too! I met him in the kitchens a few times. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 07:11:17 (EDT)
From: KK Email: None To: Gail Subject: Bobby is still MJ's Cook and Message: A piece of lifechanging divine trivia is that current and longstanding initiator BELKIS SHAH (British) is Bobby's brother-in-law as he was/is married to her sister. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 10:48:24 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hallucinating again Message: Jim: It sounds like Jaimie is hallucinating something 'holding hands.' ..... snicker...snicker Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 13:33:13 (EDT)
From: Seymour Email: None To: Everyone Subject: enjoying life? Message: Please excuse if this has been posted more than once but my system seems to be failing - probably due to the fact that my modem is held together with sticky tape. Anyway..... What is the 'enjoying life' site all about? It seems to be what DLM and Elan Vital have always been about - saying 'here we are, premies enjoying life to the full because we have knowledge. If you ordinary miserable people do not have k. then you cannot be enjoying life as much as we are.' It's like the adverising game. 'Knowledge is the ultimate New Age accessory that you cannot afford to be without! Anyone who chooses to go through life without this 'totally free' product which will provide infinite bliss and total fulfillment must be of their rockers. Only a fool would not want to 'enjoy life' and this is the only way to do it. In fact the reason that you non-premies are sad, frustrated,unhappy... is because you do not have k. Oh, and although those of you who are new to this whole shennanigans might not understand it, you will also receive (if you do a good job of practicing the 'techniques' and towing the party line ) a spectacular extra benefit - Guru's Grace, which will make you higher than you can imagine and guide you through the worst situations.' Of course any mystical/religious mumbo jumbo like 'grace' is not mentioned to new aspirants - it might put them off. There are a lot of other things not mentioned, facts brushed under the carpet, history conveniently forgotten or changed, the fear and guilt that you will feel when you lapse in your 'practice', the broken relationships with those who do not subscribe to the set of beliefs that you will soon acquire, the suppression of any critical argument or doubt, etc. etc. In fact 'economical with the truth' is an apt description of the whole process of bringing the unsuspecting Joe Public to knowledge. Still, at least they can read the posts on this site, which was something we never could do in the old days when not a dissenting voice was heard. Let's hope some folks will heed the warnings of those of us who have given knowledge our best shot for a substantial portion of our lives and have reached the conclusion that, rather than enriching life, it does more harm than good. To all aspirants Whatever they tell you ( or don't tell you) - don't believe the hype. You must remember this, a kiss is still a kiss, a sigh is still a sigh. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 21:31:21 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Seymour Subject: enjoying life? Message: Seymour, I just wanted to thank you for saying all the above. I enjoy reading your thoughts and here, seeing this lonely, excellent post just hanging there, I thought I'd say as much. Done. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 16:44:19 (EDT)
From: seymour Email: None To: Jim Subject: enjoying life? Message: Hello Jim, 'I just wanted to thank you for saying all the above. I enjoy reading your thoughts ' Praise indeed and much appreciated - I could say the same about most of your posts. I wish I had more time to indulge in the badinage and dialectic but there do not seem to be enough hours in the day. Also it feels that us Brits are a bit out of sync with the time that the more lively conversation takes place. Anyway I shall do my best to chip in occasionally and a response always gives encouragement. Hope all is well with the music and life. Cheers, Seymour Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 23:28:11 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Seymour Subject: enjoying life? Message: Dear Seymour, Nice to see and read you again. I can't really speak for people in other countries but I just don't know how American premies can stomach the censorship at that site. It seems they are very up front about that I'll tell you. I can't believe premies would 'submit' a thing knowing it could be edited. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 11:06:53 (EDT)
From: Helen Clark Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Questions Message: This website has opened up my eyes in a big way. But I'm still stumped. How can he do it? How could he get all these sincere, intelligent people to surrender themselves to him and to build up such an empire? I'm going over and over it in my mind and I can't figure it out. Or maybe I don't want to figure it out because what does that say about me? That I could be such a fool. Until I found this website I still had the belief that GM had some sort of God-realization and was a valid sort of path for awhile for some people (we ex-premies don't want to create any waves with our premie friends). Haven't been into it for 14 yrs but I still have a lot of questions about it. And I'm still trying to reconstruct a chronology of my life during that time. now I'm thinking it really is a cult. SO is it all based on a charismatic personality, or is it the gift of knowledge and the meditating that supposedly links you up with GM, that turned us all into unquestioning lovers? Does GM have any sort of God-realization or is it all a huge well-orchestrated scam? Is it calculated cruelty on his part or is it that he honestly thinks he's contributing something meaningful to people's lives therefore the ends justifies the means? A lot of you have had more access to the inner workings of DLM and lived in ashrams etc. Reading the 'embarrasing ashram story' from a few threads ago made me think of an embarrasing story of my own. I was working at Yes! restaurant in Georgetown here in the DC area off and on during high school and college. Yes! also has a bookstore which has new agey-religious books--maybe you all know it. ANyway that's where I first encountered premies (and Sikhs and other spiritual types). Anyway I had received knowledge and was singing 'You are Everything That My Heart is BEating For' over and over at the top of my lungs while doing inventory in the upstairs part of the restaurant. The accountant, who was trying to work in the next room, told me to knock it off or else pick a different song, it was really getting annoying. I'm embarrased to this day that I could have been such a blithering idiot not to realize that singing some goofy devtional song at my JOB was totally weird. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 13:30:31 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Helen Clark Subject: Answers Message: Can't help you with the memory, Helen. Maybe if you smoked pot for the next few years you might get rid of it. But as for your other questions, I urge you to get a copy of The Guru Papers by Kramer and Alstead. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 22:56:30 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Helen Clark Subject: Questions Message: Thanks for the story, Helen. I laughed out loud! I remember a lawnmowing job I had once at an apartment complex in Denver. I wrote LOVE in big cursive letters across the big main lawn, and then went back to happily mowing inward from the perimeter. The supervisor came out and saw that, stood there looking at me for a few minutes, and then shook his head and walked off. I smiled inwardly at his reaction. I had Knowledge, you see... As for whether Maharaji is just in it for the money, you must not have been devoted enough! Maharaji himself explains how little money means in life on his videos - available from Visions International for 20+ dollars (US) apiece. You should have been more like the premie who posted here a while back. He proudly listed the titles of over 500 of them that he had in his personal library!!! He had all the answers. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 13:10:52 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Brian Subject: Questions Message: Oh God, I know you feel like a biscuit when you recall that story, Brian. You should start an 'Embarrasing Stories Archives' on this web site. I remembered another one last night. When I was single and a premie I went out on a date with a very nice fellow (a non-premie). We went to see 'Superman'. At the end, he asked how I liked it, and with blissful smile I said, 'Superman reminded me of Guru Maharaji!' Suffice it to say I never heard from that guy again!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 16:21:46 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Helen Subject: If Dave were here Message: If my friend Dave Winer hadn't hung himself that bright, spring morning in 1974, he might admit being a bit embarrassed about this. It definitely wasn't cool for premies to watch tv or movies back then. However, there was an exception: Zefferelli's sacharrine drippy/hippy schmaltz about Francis of Tziziki, 'Brother Sun, Sister Moon'. For some reason we not only could see it but DID see it, en masse. All the Vancouver premies went down one early evening -- yes, instead of having satsang -- like schoolkids on an outing (only no holding hands!). Anyway, at the end of the film, Dave stands up in the aisles and says something like 'He's here! Don't make the same mistake! He's with us this time!' None of us expressed any embarrassment. In fact, outside the theatre we buttonholed the exiting audience with satsang and leaflets. Hell, it was a good night for propagation. Was Dave crazy? Hell no. He just really believed Maharaji was for real. Indeed, our whole community had had big, bullhorn-driven Lord of the Universe parades down Hastings street a few months before. So if Dave was nuts, I guess we all were. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 21:17:40 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jim Subject: If Dave were here Message: Was Dave's suicide GM-related? I can see how it can happen. Serious shit, serious, serious shit. Permanent nuerological short-circuiting. Jim, sounds like you were quite in the thick of things. Very interesting that they allowed you to watch that movie. A feel-good sort of movie. I must say though that I have far greater respect for St. Francis (or what the stories proported him to be) than GM. Is that movie about the same saint--St. Francis? I remember that movie being very poular with the premies--but I don't think I've seen it. The Franciscans that I know actually walk the talk, instead of talkin' double talk and living like kings if you catch my drift. Jim, I'll be scared of you if you and I ever really get into a religious discussion. I've gathered you're an atheist and I definitely am not. But don't worry I'm not a proselytizer. Have you ever read The Second Coming by Walker Percy? It's not what you think. You'd get a kick out of Percy if you're not familiar with him already. I looked up excerpts from The Guru Papers on the internet last night--excellent. Thanks again Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 21:54:59 (EDT)
From: x Email: None To: Helen Subject: If Dave were here Message: Thats funny, Brother Sun Sister Moon, I remember that one. I was very young though, so I was bored, of course. I remember it was 'acceptable' and all the premies in my town went too. Other de riguer 70's premie movies, Jesus Christ Superstar, also dont forget Tommy. Helen, Jim sounds like he may be an atheist? Thats like saying the pope sounds Catholic! Have you ever heard of Richard Dawkins? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 13:24:51 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: x Subject: If Dave were here Message: The acceptable movies, what a crack up. I will check out Richard Dawkins. Thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 21:57:20 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Helen Subject: If Dave were here Message: Helen, Yes, I'm an atheist. No, I've never heard of that book. But I just did a search and read a capsule review. It sounds pretty good. But, yes, I AM an atheist. Would you like to become one too? Start with The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins. As for Dave, I've told his story a number of times here. He one thousand per cent killed himself because of Maharaji. I think I'm being absolutely fair, unemotional and reasonable when I say that Maharaji killed him. See, Dave took Maharaji very seriously. Maharaji made it very clear that life without love for the Master wasn't worth living. Life with doubt was a sacrilidge. The mind is evil. Most of us somehow tossed those edicts into the hopper and vascillated between our intense efforts at devotion and trying to figure out how we could have this world and eat it too. Dave was just like anyone else but that year I guess he was particularly idealistic. He really wanted to bite that carrot Maharaji kept dangling in front of us. He wanted to 'get to the other side', to 'realize knowledge', to 'really surrender'. However, like the rest of us, he couldn't. No one can. It's all bullshit. Anyway, Dave started really freaking when he realized he was completely powerless in the face of Mr. Mind. I know where he was at because he told me. Further, he quoted Maharaji at his scariest. Really, I didn't know what to tell him but to meditate, etc. Anyway, he was living in the ashram then. Mahatma Tejeshwaranand was in Vancouver, literally fucking a harem he'd put together inculding a 'sister' he'd flown up from the Philly ashram. Garnet Dupuis, his Gentleman's Gentleman was giving his precious little prima donna satsang nightly. Life was good. It was a beautiful late spring afternoon. Dave took some rope and went a few blocks over to some little medical office building on Broadway. (The ashram, for any Vancouverites, was the one at 21 W. 13th). When they pulled Gary Ockendon out of satsang that night to identify the body, we just went down and meditated as usual. No way Mr. Mind was going to get US thorugh some little juvenile display of histrionics like suicide. (Kind of like when Kevin Smith's folks called him from the states and told him his brother had been killed at a party. Kevin, like any good premie, just told them he wasn't about to let 'anger, desire, attachment' .....you know.). Maharaji killed Dave Weiner. He should hve known, adn probably DID know that some poor eggs were gonna crack making his omelet. Dave was only one of three or four premie suicides in Vancouver around then. Nigel, Elaine, Greg, the guy who jumped out of a building here in Victoria. Hey, it was intense being a premie then. That was before it was just about EnjoyingLife (tm). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 02:23:52 (EDT)
From: x Email: None To: Jim Subject: If Dave were here Message: That's really sad that you guys werent allowed to show feelings over your friends suicide. Thats like insult to injury. Maharaji's cracked egg omellete is pretty evil. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 13:45:00 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jim Subject: If Dave were here Message: Oh God. I am so sorry about your friend, and sorry that happened to you.And you say there's no chance of suing GM because of these suicides/sexual abuses? No proving that his prescription for enlightenment/ashram living conditions cause psychosis in some premies? Oh God, I can't believe they just told you tot meditate away even though your dear friend has just killed himself. You know that is just so fucking abusive I can't believe it. My father in law killed himself when I was 3 months pregnant and I'll tell you I went into shock and don't feel I have ever gotten over it. As per the book you recommend I will definitely check it out. I don't particularly want to become an atheist but I'm also no stranger to the power of literature. I will check out that book after my mind stops reeling from the realization that I was schnookered lock, stock, & barrel by GM. I've had enough disequilibrium this month, thank you. See, I've learned that the mind is a fragile thing...I've learned to self-monitor what goes in...I've learned to take care of myself. GM didn't really cover that in his satsangs, did he??? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 21:21:42 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Helen Subject: Just to be clear Message: No pun intended in that subject line, but I think I should make this point, Helen. No one made me meditate that night, no one forced anyone to repress their feelings. It wasn't like that. We were all so stunned and touched in some way by Dave's death, just as we were by all the other premie suicides and breakdowns back in the seventies, I don't think anyone told anyone much of anything. However, as a good premie then I firmly believed that the mind was an evil, foreign entity occupying my body. ('No, not the brain,' he said, 'I'm talking about the mind. You know, the thing that makes you worry about the toaster when you sit down to meditate.' 'Oh, yeah, I get it,' I said. 'The mind.') I looked at it like this, Dave couldn't persuade me to doubt Maharaji in life, so why should his tragically mindful action be any different? In the end, the world's all maya, isn't it? It's all a test, isn't it? Stay sharp! Meditate and, once again, go to the place inside where you KNOW the truth and love are waiting for you. So, like everyone else there, I jammed my thoughts and emotions with a lot of meditation. Ironically, I might have even had a particularly nice meditation that night and gone to bed with a smile on my face. The next day, though, I remember sitting with Gary Ockendon and musing -- quite unfaithfully for a this-world-won't-fool-me premie like myself -- how simple it would have been to just take Dave camping or something for a few days. You know, kind of put the melodramatic battle of good and evil playing itself out in our hearts each moment on hold for a bit. I remember getting a little misty-eyed then. But let's face it. That never would have happened. That would have meant caving in to the mind. Dave's doubts were like bucking broncos and there was no way that his mind should have been let out of the corral just because it was kicking up a storm. Hell, Maharaji had given us all sorts of satsang about staying the course, hanging in there, plunging ourselves into satsang, service and meditation. When? Always but especially when things were at their most intense. That's the satsang I gave Dave and it was the only map I had then. Do I feel guilty now? No, not a bit. Ironically, Dave himself was the first one who got me into this cult. (No, that wasn't his fault either). We were just playing out the only program we could. I mean, after all, if Maharaji really was the Lord, how else COULD one act? And that assumption, which is now so hard to even consider hypothetically, was the most rock-solid certainty I 'knew' then. Jai Sat Chit Anand. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Oct 14, 1998 at 07:57:34 (EDT)
From: Diz Email: None To: Jim Subject: Ashram blues Message: Hi Jim and Helen There was a brother in the ashram in my city who committed suicide around 1974. We didn't really talk about it. Was there a funeral? I guess so, but I don't remember - probably most of us weren't invited or told, we were all busy, had our service to do. We knew where we were supposed to be focusing. I've often wondered why he decided to quit. I couldn't say whether it was desperation about being the perfect premie as you've so eloquently described above. Definitely those who kept a bit of themselves back fared better in Maharaji's World than those who tried to give themselves completely. BTW, once our ashram did go camping for a weekend. It was like being let out of prison. We raced around screaming our heads off. Such a release. Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Oct 14, 1998 at 15:39:34 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jim Subject: Just to be clear Message: Jim: I had never heard Dave's 'story' before. I can't tell you how sad this one made me feel. My eyes are misting.... I will not write the words I want to say about M right now, because it would be too caustic for anyone to read. Let me put it this way, 'hate' is pretty mild word right at the moment! That bastard didn't even acknowledge Dave's death did he? Maharaji you are the king alright, you are the king of ASSHOLES! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Oct 14, 1998 at 19:28:44 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jim Subject: Dave Message: Hey Jim after I read your post last night I didn't know what to say. It made me think about so many things. We really bought that stuff about maya, didn't we? Among my group of friends (this is late 70's) we were all getting into eastern concepts, chanting, the Upanishads, the I Ching, Gurus, Be Here Now, yoga, smoking dope (ahem...er, he he), and this idea of maya was quite the accepted 'truth'. So the idea of needing a Guru to bring you from Darkness to Light, to shelter you as you navigate the treacherous waters of Maya, was quite accepted. And, boy do I remember how intense it was--GM & Mind, Light & Darkness, Luke Skywalker & Darth Vader. It really appealed to us on some sort of mythic, archetypal level (Gee, Superman and Batman do too, but we didn't surrender our lives to them...or did I? I can't remember) Anyway, we were fighting the good fight. As per what you and DZ said about camping. I remember when I was getting so heavy into all this spiritual stuff, I used to talk to my Dad long-distance about it on the phone. He would say 'Honey, I think you need to go crunch some autumn leaves under your feet' (The environmentalist's way of saying:'girl, I think you need to get out more! you crazy, girl!' ) I mean it was so inwardly oriented, so heavy. The suicides, though incredibly tragic, don't surprise me. I could see how intense the ashram thing was when I went to satsang there. What a waste though. Did any ashram premies just wake up one day and say 'Man, I don't need this shit anymore' and just walk away? I have a sinking feeling the answer is no because GM's tentacles were in them so deep It was heavy enough being a non-ashram premie, but sounds like the ashram thing was so relentless, so out of proportion. As a non-ashram premie, I got a chance to let Mr. Mind, my friends, loved ones, and even my professors talk some sense back into me. Noone was watching me and telling me 'no chit chat' and all that craziness. Was there anything good about the ashram? ANy good memories? I have to go help my daughter with her homework. Maybe I'll catch you tomorrow. Jai Sat Chit Anand right back at you, brother Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Oct 14, 1998 at 20:18:33 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Helen Subject: There were LOTS of good times Message: First, Mike, Diz and Helen, thanks for your posts. Yeah, you guys got it. A strange mix, for me anyway, of anger, tragedy, some embarrassment and even a little bemusement at the wacky, weird world of the Maharaji cult, circa 1974. ('Hey, guys, I was in a cult, you know!' 'Oh, yeah? Anyone get hurt?' 'Well, funny you should ask...'). When I think of Dave I think of him in life, first as a friend at Camp Kawagama (and rival for the heart of Ms. Arlene Levitt), then as a doe-eyed premie, singing the praises ... oh my god, just as I write this I remember this song Dave wrote and used to sing in satsang. Hm. ... sigh. I also think of Dave's body hanging there in that stairwell. When I do, I can't picture the face. At least I never have until now when I'm forcing myself to. Hm. I also remember Dave freaking out one night after satsang when we started meditating after the community premies went home. I guess some dogs were howling off in the distance. Dave got up, kind of abruptly, and shut the window. I think only he and I were in the room or something because I recall talking a bit, just a bit. Dave was actually freaked by the concept of charasee. Remember that? The Hindu notion that, if you're not careful, you could come back next lifetime as an animal. He was already starting to lose it. Must have been. If it was warm enough to leave the windows open, it was probably late spring, around the time Dave died. That was when I first noticed how freaked Dave was getting. It was like somehow, we all had built-in resistance to the real heaviness of Maharaji's message. Dave had lost this shield and was actually taking in the good master's words, dire implications and all. But, Helen, you asked if there weren't good times as well. Actually, Raja Ji asked me the same question when I confronted him at a program in the mid-80's: 'well, were you happy?' We had lots of good times. I was really happy lots of the time. Well, kind of happy. Hey, there were moments. Moments of camaraderie, moments of laughter, moments of aspiration and what I believed was transendence. But really, what good's a cult if it can't trap you emotionally, eh? I mean, DLM wasn't a prison, it was a cult. All my joy was prefaced on the assumption that some fat, little pig with a large bank account and minimal education was staring out my eyeballs, not me. When I looked in a mirror then, I spoke to Maharaji at times. After all, HE was the real thing, right? Jim was just the static, the interference, the 'opportunity to surrender'. Sometimes, the fantasy that got me most excited was that of stopping a bullet for my Lord. Yeah, lots of fun. Oh, there were other times we had ice cream. That was fun too. Really, I was incredibly horny in later years. If there's one thing I'll NEVER forgive that fat little fuck for it's that. So, look, now we've got a post from the Lord's own mistress, Ms. Monika Lewis, and no one even mentions it. This IS a strange world! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Oct 15, 1998 at 10:51:05 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: See? What'd I tell you? Message: When I looked in a mirror then, I spoke to Maharaji at times. After all, HE was the real thing, right? Jim was just the static, the interference, the 'opportunity to surrender'. So, it's coming to quoting myself, has it? Here's a new Expression that proves we really did think that way. This lost soul still does: 'Astrid Rush Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA Look into My Eyes Look into my eyes, say, what do you see, do you see yourself, or do you see me, I look into your eyes, and I am held in your gaze, swept by devotion onto your shore, who I once was ceases to be, with no line of distinction, between what was you and once me, Look into my eyes, through to my soul, see how I love you, my heart is your own, Your eyes are the ocean, my soul is the sea, we're one and the same now, what was you, is now me.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Oct 15, 1998 at 11:04:52 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jim Subject: See? What'd I tell you? Message: Jim: Jeez, I hate these. The poem makes it sound like 'astrid' is a fully-realized soul and yet, you know she isn't even close. It's all that wishful thinking, all over again! It's all of that 'satsang that wasn't' all over again. It's all of that plastering a false smile on your face (no matter what) again. History repeating itself.... once again! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Oct 15, 1998 at 16:56:31 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jim Subject: There were LOTS of good times Message: Hey Jim, No doubt you attributed all the good stuff--ice cream, camaraderie, etc. to GM and all the bad stuff to Mr. Mind. Convenient little dichotemy, eh? As to your horniness, isn't it weird that when you aren't allowed to have something it becomes the center of the universe? Mr. Mind and Mr. Hormones beat you up, eh? Even nuns and priests, in some orders, are allowed to take classes, play cards, go to the theater, travel, smoke a cig...I mean they are able to have a break and have some human contact and fun, let in some energy. The whole GM trip was so completely unbalanced. I remember trying to have a conversation w/two strung out ashram guys about religion, & philosophy, and of course it all had to come back around to the myopic one topic. OY! You confronted Raja Ji at a program in the mid-80's? Tell all-- Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 02:06:24 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Helen Subject: Questions Message: Suffice it to say I never heard from that guy again!!! Ah... Love is so fragile and fleeting among those who haven't received Knowledge... Sad, aint it? But although you were gone from his life, I'm sure your memory still lingered in the lunchroom at his work. [Man I had this weird date last night...] Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 13:20:16 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Brian Subject: Questions Message: No doubt. Isn't it strange how the 'embarrasing stories' have a certain theme, the theme being that as premies, we lost any sense of self-dignity (I probably didn't have much to begin with), ie, knowing what is and isn't appropriate in social settings, at jobs,etc. We lacked a certain sophistication, no? We truly were like big children. (Hmmm, but then again my six year old has a whole lot more sense than I did back then--she'd whoop the ass of anyone who tried to tell her her perceptions were wrong!) Our whole focus was so narrow. We were so wrapped up in looking through this one lens of GM that we couldn't see the big picture anymore. We even lost our common sense. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 23:09:22 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: Helen Clark Subject: 96 video Message: Well Helen, He is a potent smiling talker in some videos and he says in one sentence how it is to feel 'that feeling' (the breath) with gratitude and you have got it made. Then in the next minute he is talking about how it is great when his schedule goes right and when it doesnt he admits that he blows up and gets mad and that 'that is putting it mildly' I just saw the video as I found one in my office top shelf. He looked good, made some sense, but strewn throughout are the leaks of logic and the gratitude/fury one is a sample. Also, he reveals in his life how flawed he can be but he keeps up the 'master of life' front and gives it that illusion of -I am whatever god there is- slant and so you are left with that cap on reality where he is the authority on life and you can't have your own relationship with life without haveing to somehow fit the 'master of life' into the equation. VERY constricting. Also, in the video he talked about how he saw some videos from way back in 71 and he said he has always said the same thing. Not true by a country mile. The master of life was a very demanding lord of the universe for a good number of years. I have (former) friends on the enoyinglife website and where I have no desire to see them all christians or jews or buddhists or any new age creation, but I am glad for others that the history is not being covered up. My worry is that y2k will flatten the world economy and prem rawat will march through the rubble of lots of struggling countries and get a second wind. But at least the site is here and so history will have that to keep things in check. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 00:08:10 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Helen Clark Subject: You have the answers Message: Mark Twain said it nicely (even though I think he had another kind of Knowledge in mind): 'For all the talk you hear about Knowledge being such a wonderful thing, instink (instinct) is worth forty of it for real unerringness.' Why do we give up what we know is truth, by virtue of our own instinct, to believe some sham? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 12:41:11 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: VP Subject: You have the answers Message: Yes, thank you, VP and all who answered my questions. Isn't Mark Twain great? Did you ever read The Mysterious Stranger, one of his lesser known works? A very unusual book. Yes, you are right. I do have the answers. I am much stronger after a week of 'Cognitive dissonance' after discovering this website. I remember my first instinct when I first visited the premie house in Grand Rapids Michigan: 'Man, this is really weird. All these pictures of GM, and people bowing to the pictures...they look pretty spaced out, too. Hmmm, but they are so HAPPY' Why didn't I go on my instinct? I read excerpts of The Guru Papers last night on the internet per Jim's suggestion. Kramer (one of the authors) says that to those outside the guru circle the devotee looks as if he's giving away his power. But that person susceptible to a guru trip probably didn't have a whole lot of personal power in the first place. ANd probably didn't trust themselves a hell of a whole lot. That would be me. I've come a long way, though. The other thing The Guru Papers said is that if you want to see evidence that you are in a cult, look at those closest to the inner circle. My instincts always told me 'Man, those cats are disconnected' when those initiators would come to town. And some of the men and women in the ashram were far gone. Too bad I didn't have more compassion for them then. I just wanted to have MY experience. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 20:02:17 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: I don't get it (part 2) Message: Anyone who's been around at all in Maharaj'i's cult will remember how much shit Maharaji gave us in the late 70's for whitewashing our experiences and saying everything was okay. It wasn't. We were just small, little ants trying to scale a mile-high wall, as he'd said even earlier in the mid 70s. After we'd all 'spaced out' a bit and had come back grovelling and defeated, he reminded us emphatically that we still hadn't done the deed. We hadn't overcome the mind, we hadn't really surrendered. See, we USED to give satsang by just explaining how great Maharaji was, how lucky we were, how much happiness he had borught us, that kind of thing. Then we drifted a bit (which he encouraged but later ridiculed and chastised us for). Then, we we came back, he insisted that our satsang not return to the former, sunnier sort. It had to be confessional. Then he shut everyone up. Now the premies are talking again and, to listen to them, they're already gotten where they have to go. No more battles with Mr. Mind, no more conflict and confusion. No more path to anywhere either for that matter. So what gets me is that, once again, the premies are putting on these stupid happy faces. I guess I'm saying that, as fucked up as we were, as Brian McDermotted as we'd become (I recently reread his Poconos satsang. Holy cow! Talk about voluntary disassociation and psychosis!), we were almost more honest then. Now these jokers just say shit like: 'And a heart that used to cry, without even realising it was crying, now flutters with joy.' So, one wonders, what's next? Whatever it is, one can rest assured that the past, when necessary, will be easily forgotten. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 04:04:44 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Jim Subject: Whatever happened to Brian Mc Message: Dermott? Is he still with MJ? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 04:15:23 (EDT)
From: Malibu Mole Email: None To: Gail Subject: Whatever happened to Brian Mc Message: yes Amtext and 'Divine'Security dude. Was at the Doo a few weeks back. Married and living in Arizona. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 19:32:13 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Malibu Mole Subject: Whatever happened to Brian Mc Message: Wasn't Brian at one time a college professor? Is he now reduced to book-buying? [This is what Amtext is, right?] College professor to initiator to book-buyer. My, how the mighty have fallen. But maybe he's some kind of honcho at Amtext, so maybe he's really an executive. Wacky person, Brian, allthough his satsang was usually entertaining and had less fire and brimstone and breast-beating than a lot of the other initiators. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 22:06:56 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: My beef wirth McDermott Message: Joe, I think he was a schoolteacher before becoming a guru freak. Once, when he visited Ottawa around late '76 or early '77, I did what most ashram premies were expected to do. I made an appointment to meet with him so that I could.... I don't know... whine? Yeah, that's what we were doing. I did it too. I told him taht I wanted to fel the simple joy of k that I'd felt a few years earlier. Somehow, I ended up telling him that, during the short time I'd been out of the ashram in '75, I'd done mushrooms with some friends in the country. Brian then turned to me with his typical over-amped chipmunk urgency and said that, without question, it would take me seven years to get back my clean connection to Maharaji. Asshole. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 22:51:24 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: My beef wirth McDermott Message: Yes, Brian was being assholic, or maybe 'more assholic than thow,' all right. Did Brian happen to mention how he knew about the 7-year rule? Boy Jim, doesn't sound like you to not ask for proof. You must have been a raving cult member at the time.Was the 7 years like pergatory or something? Wouldn't getting darshan or doing the dirty service, like cleaning the bathroom, reduce the 7-year sentence for good behavior? But maybe he did you a favor. Since there never was any 'connection' to Guru Maharaj Ji in the first place, at least you didn't have any expectation of one, at least for the 7 years. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 23:44:09 (EDT)
From: KK Email: None To: Jim Subject: My beef wirth McDermott Message: On the topic of initaitors whose names started with Mc., whatever happened to Stuart McDougall, Canadian initiator? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 00:01:14 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: KK Subject: My beef wirth McDermott Message: Stuart, bless his heart, was one of those just plain nice guys thrust into the game of playing like he was partially god-realized or something. He was one of the first initiators I knew as a simple premie before he ascended. (In those days, 'initiator' was still a 'humble' appellation for 'mahatma', or 'great soul'. We actually believed Maharaji did something special to these guys OR they'd surrendered a bit more than the rest of us OR something like that. And why not? They were supposedly pure enough to be conduits for Maharaji's grace to flow through their fingertips and open our third eyes.) But, sorry, Stuart, as a source of bullshit inspiration, fella, you just didn't cut it. Maybe you were too honest or maybe you just weren't cut out for a lifetime of public speaking. Actually, when people like Stuart got tapped I started thinking. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 01:31:47 (EDT)
From: STEVEN Email: None To: Gail Subject: Whatever happened to Brian Mc Message: YES HE IS AND HE PRACTICES EVERY DAY .HA HA Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 19:26:37 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Maybe this is why Message: As to why today's premies are so happy to just say they're fulfilled and that's that, it's occurred to me that maybe these are people who no longer really want to understand anything. We used to have a youthful, idealistic thirst for knowledge. Not special k but actual knowledge. We wanted to understand the 'mysteries of life' just as Maharaji pretended he did. Even when we got hip to the process of subsuming our thoughts in mediation, we still believed that was a way of attaining a higher state of consciousness complete with greater understanding of the world. You kinow, when Maharaji used to talk about the wisdom of choosing devotion over liberation, say, we believed that one day we, too, would see the landscape that made the former the better move. And even when we wrestled with our minds, our doubts and fears and aspirations, we expressed all that in satsang in hopes of better understanding or at least vanqusihing our confusion. Now, however, it seems the premies believe the only happy man is a simple man. So simple that he's abandoned all curiosity. This is a bizarre posture to strike, yet that's the current mode, isn't it? We've got testimony from journalists, writers even professors of religon, all of who pretend to have no questions about life, just a warm, happy feeling, cycnically and most ironically named 'knowledge.' In their regular lives they most certainly allow themselves roomj to think and question. But, as premies, they play like an army of Forrest Gumps. No, that's not fair. Gump did the most he could with limited intelligence. He DID ask questions and tried to understand the answers he got. I guess there's no counterpart for the premie mentality outside the world of cults and mind control. So, for all this time we've been talking with Cris Dickey, how freaky to find a whole page where everyone who posts there shares his fake naivite. Chris, for example, wears two personalities. He must. He's a Certified Microsoft Technologist, a designation I've only recently learned is actually fairly difficult to obtain. You can't be stupid apparently. You have to know your shit and you have to study fairly dilligently. Congratulations, Chris. On the other hand, he pretends to not understand half of what's ever said to him here and sounds, for my money, just like all these other goons (as in Alice the Goon -- 'I love Popeye! I love Popeye!) on the premie site. Theirs is a world without irony, without questions, without a real past (one can't count the snivelling whitewash in their remembrances as history.) And why? Because they think they like it that way. The master said 'dummy down, keep it simple, stupid' and that's the role they're playing. I wonder where this is all going to go over the next few years. The premies have boxed themselves into a very tight corner. How could they ever 'get real' again as we tried to do in the mid seventies? How can anything happen? Will they actually settle into this play-acting for the rest of their lives? If so, they'll have no power to question or examine anything that happens. If Maharaji annoints his successor, they'll just line up to explain how grateful they are, blah blah, blah, ad nasuem. If Maharaji simply dies, they'll just be able to explain how grateful they are, etc. Year in, year out, the same, the same, the same. But human nature never stagnates like that. Something gives eventually. Doesn't it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 09:16:12 (EDT)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jim Subject: Maybe this is why Message: Very perceptive and insightful, Jim. If the Maharaji roadshow continues in this vein, I think that all it can do is continue to shrink. New people will not be attracted to watching endless videos. I think there has been a curious shift in premie thought over the years. I noticed this the last time I spoke to a premie friend I had (before he saw my forum posts). When I complained about how heavy the trip used to be he told me, 'It's not like that now, Maharaji's changed. He's got rid of all the seventies bullshit' or words to that effect. He didn't understand my query about how could the Lord have got it wrong in the first place. So what once was a real heavy trip with dangers and people freaked out and all of that; now has changed into a lovely, light, no demands and no pressure trip with a lovely, lovely sweet, butter wouldn't melt in his mouth Master. All the old premies who never got into the old heavy devotional trip are now as pleased as punch because it's just as if Maharaji, by a wave of his magic wand, has taken away all the heaviness. Oh it's so beautiful! But the novelty of this will eventually wear off, I'm sure. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 09:19:43 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Jim Subject: BM & $$ is why Message: M can squeeze more bread and be the lord of the party. What does he care? It's take the money and run, dontcha think? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 12:34:52 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jim Subject: Maybe this is why Message: Jim: When he said, 'devotion over liberation,' I definitely balked. I WANTED liberation and that's what all the books said I should be looking for, too. I can't believe that I compromised that desire because 'he said so.' BUT, I really believe that he knowingly said this so that WE would stop seeking something that he had NO ABILITY to deliver. In the beginning, if you recall, that is EXACTLY what he said he could deliver. Well, knowing that he couldn't, he changes the rules and says 'devotion' is better (under the guise of us 'growing' into this understanding). - You know, the more that I see these 'little' changes that he made, the more that I'm convinced that he isn't stumbling around, at all. I think he KNOWS exactly what he is doing, in regards to maintaining his status in the cult. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 14:31:12 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Mike Subject: Maybe this is why Message: Mike, I'm telling you, you are GM's worst enemy b/c your mind is sharp as a tack, buddy. You're paying attention to the subtleties and are able to see where the focus shifted, so we can figure out that it was all a bill of goods we were sold to keep us stringing along behind GM.. See, I was so spaced out during that time, I just tuned out what GM was saying half the times. This one premie kept telling me, 'It's not the words.' Man, I appreciate your sharing your thoughts here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 16:21:39 (EDT)
From: Potential client Email: None To: Jim, the criminal lawyer Subject: Potential lawsuit Message: What is the possibility of a class action lawsuit against the big G? Can we sue for false promises, misrepresentation, stolen hearts, stolen years, outright telling of lies, etc.? I would like to hear from Guru's lips the explanation of why he didn't tell me the truth. Why is he having affairs and I'm still listening to Fakiranand's words in my head which say that touching skin is ugly, disgusting, not pure, not of God. Why did I spend so much of my life in fucking isolation with my head under a virtual blanket of lies, instead of enjoying my children, flowers, this planet . . . What is the worth of a lifetime, or half a lifetime? Well I think it's worth an explanation at the very least. Guru was a child when he started this nonsense. Well guess what Guru? I was a child too and now I'm fucked up and probably need psychiatric help. And I think you should pay for it! What do you say Jim? Can we sue? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 18:10:50 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Potential client Subject: Shit, I don't think so Message: For a while I've fielded this question along with JW who might not be a lawyer but has better spelling than most. :) (No, Joe works in a large law firm and is completely up on this question ... I think .. from talking about it with his colleagues). We've both agreed that, in our opinion, there are a number of prohibitions to a viable action like this. The first, as you might imagine, is the incredible latitude American courts grant religious expression. Second, is, for many of us oldtimers who left a while ago, getting around the Statute of Limitations. Maharaji's most egregious claims were, for the most part, fairly historic I think and they'd be the ones he'd really have to answer for. It'd be pretty hard to drag him into court and force him to answer for telling his fools to 'stay in touch' etc. Mind you, one of the lawyers in my new firm just moved here from California. That makes two of us and he, unlike me, actually did some related plaintiff work when he was there. I'll talk with him about it. 'Guru, is it true that you force your followers to enjoy life?' The cult's gotten slippery the same way a screw loses its threads after a while. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 18:29:08 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Jim Subject: How about this? Message: When I was 17, I took a history of religions course in high school. The teacher covered all the traditional religions, Judaism, Christianity, Moslem, Buddism, etc. He also covered many cults such as the Krishna people, Moonies, TM and fringe bible-banging Christian groups. Not only that, he had a representative from every group into the classroom. In fact, I was recruited for TM right there at my high school. It cost me $75, a flower, some fruit and about four hours to get initiated into Mahareshi's cult. By the time this history class was over, I had no religious beliefs left. I tried TM for about two years until I met a premie. The rest is history ... Do you think I could sue my current employer (Board of Ed.) and my former teacher? I would love to get my hands on $10 million. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 19:49:52 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: All Subject: Hi- Class Message: Class action is appropriate if feasible. It would enable us as a group to say what we think in a public forum and would probably send BM packing. I could care less about money from it but it would be righteous. It would be probably be pretty valuable without even winning it! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 22:20:14 (EDT)
From: Joy Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Hi- Class Message: Yeah, I agree with that. So what if it's not winnable, just to get the point across would be great. (Maybe even attract a little media publicity, that thing BM so hates.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 18:06:30 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Hi- Class Message: So, it's great to see you would like to see this, but somebody would have to pay for it. Litigation in the US is very expensive, especially class action litigation. And how would you constitute a class? Ex-premies are all over the map in what they think about Big M and his cult and whether they suffered any damage, etc. So, putting together a class that a court would actually certify would be very difficult. It isn't a matter of 'winning,' it's a matter of not having the case thrown out before you can discover anything. I's not like we are a bunch of people who got swindled in the same securities scheme. The damages are much harder to show. We might all agree M is a fraud, but do we agree on how, or if, we were damaged because of that? I think because people hear about class-action lawsuits, they think they can just be brought willy-nilly. I have worked in a lot of them and that really isn't true. They are amazingly difficult to do, and that would be particularly difficult in a case involving religion, which, as Jim said, the US courts avoid like the plague. I think Big M would be hurt much worse just by bad publicity, and getting the truth about him out there, than any court proceeding, which I think would be thrown out pretty quickly. I'd rather see resources going there. The litigation process is a very crude system and it doesn't work too well for the kind of subjective harm we all know Maharaj Ji caused. For most of us the statute of limitations has run anyway. Maharaji and DLM HAVE been sued by the families of people who were underaged when they received knowledge (I recall there was one of these in Northern Florida somewhere around 1979 when I was at IHQ) that have been settled, meaning they got paid money by DLM. I'm sure this is part of the reason Big M is hesitant to initiate people under 18 nowadays. Too much potential for liability. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 19:18:40 (EDT)
From: KK Email: None To: JW Subject: Hi- Class Message: Hi JW, the Statute of Limitations does NOT apply to criminal matters which are never time barred. This is important. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 19:27:53 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: KK Subject: Hi- Class Message: Right KK, but Runamouk was talking about a civil class action. Clearly, regarding Fakiranand, Jagdeo, Maharaji or anyone else, for whom there is evidence or criminal wrongdoing, that's a different story. For example, I really would like to see Fakiranand brought to justice, as well as anyone else in DLM who aided him in avoiding prosecution. How are you KK? Hope all is well. JW Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 22:10:21 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: Hi- Class Message: All anyone has to do is contact the cops in Detroit and ask them if they're possibly interested in the attempt(?) murder of Pat Hailey. I don't think they would be but if they are I'm hgappy to let them know what I know. Anyone feel like contacting them? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 12:34:36 (EDT)
From: david m Email: whaler32@aol.com To: Jim Subject: Hi- Class Message: jim.... I just spent an hour on the phone to detroit police dept.... man is that place screwed up.. they said i have to go downtown to records division..thery dont have any record of the incident on their computers... quick question what exactly do i say i want the records for they asked me if i was a lawyer.....i remember pat healey was a editor or a reporter with the fith estate newspaper which no longer exists..i looked in all the phone books i have here...im willling to give this thing some more time any advice ......dave Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Oct 14, 1998 at 21:14:45 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: david m Subject: Hi- Class Message: Hi David, Sorry I didn't respond sooner. I just saw your post. I think the way to go about this is perhaps to ask the cops if there's anyone around there who was on the force back in '73. That way you might find someone who remembers and gives a shit. Otherwise I'm not sure. By the way, I think the guy's name was Haley (maybe Hailey?). That might help. Beyond that, really, I have no idea. Good luck. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Oct 15, 1998 at 12:05:58 (EDT)
From: david m Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hi- Class Message: Jim....im going away for the weekend when i get back ill go downtown monday or tues...see what i can find ..I also contacted some old hippie friends who were with the old 5th estate newspaper ..there going to chedk some stuff out...thanks.....dave Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 23:47:19 (EDT)
From: KK Email: None To: JW Subject: Hi- Class Message: Great, thanks JW. I just wanted to be sure that everyone wasn't getting myopic about CIVIL as I believe there are other possibilities. Thanks, JW. talk to you soon. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 05:21:58 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: KK Subject: Hi- Class Message: Well, what is the plus side, if any, of class action? Are there possible legal reasons for extending the statute of limitations? What is the amount of time involved? We could show that our education and our careers suffered as a result of his influence and his organization. We also were under the fraudulent influence of M's messianic claims, which could cause us all kinds of problems, tangibly. Can you clarify what chances there are positively? What kind of money would it take to start? Can you toss it around a bit more. I've seen this discussed on the forum but never enough to satisfy my curiosity. I think one time somebody posted an address to send money for a legal fund which Brian deleted (quite understandably). So, the conversation has been kinda limited for us non-lawyers who don't have as much grasp of it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 14:40:53 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Hi- Class Message: I hate to be a wet-blanket on this issue, but I've looked at it quite a lot and I don't think there is much of a return for going the class-action route. The only 'plus' is some possible publicity, and, perhaps, some discovery on DLM/EV. But if the case gets thrown out, and I think there is a strong chance of that, I think that actually reduces the credibility of ex-premies. That's just my opinion. I don't think there is a limitation for fraud, but for everything else, negligence, breach of contract, misrepresentation, etc., the statute is probably maximum 4 years. This would be California, and probably most other states. I think you could extend it for whatever period one remains in the cult. Fraud is difficult to show, you have to prove intent. Maybe Big M was just deluded and really did believe he was god. We could show that our education and our careers suffered as a result of his influence and his organization. True, but very hard to prove in my opinion. Objectively, I think for most people it looked like personal decisions they made on those issues. I think it's true that many of us made those decisions based on a false belief that M was the messiah, but to prove that is very difficult, and it's basically a matter of religious belief. Some people think he really does offer something worth devoting your life to and some of us don't. I think it's true what you say; I just think it would be really hard to prove in a court. It's a religious belief system, and these kind of cases often aren't successful unless there is some actual financial fraud, abuse, underage people and the like. Plus, from what I understand M hasn't had ashrams since 1983 and I don't think he has discouraged careers or education, at least not directly for the past 15 years. I see real statute of limitations problems there. The cost of this litigation would be huge, and Big M has the resources on his side to make it even more expensive. We are talking hundreds of thousands of dollars, probably. The alternative would be to get some lawyers to take it on a contingent fee arrangement, but the chances for recovery are pretty remote, and so it's hard to see that any lawyer, unless the lawyers were dedicated to the cause, would take that kind of case. Plus, I have no doubt that M and EV have structured the organizations so that perhaps they don't have assets. Who knows? Maybe Big M doesn't actually own that residence and all his luxuries. I wouldn't be surprised if they are owned by some other organization. So, there is also the question of whether there is actually some entity to recover from. We have a saying in my firm: If the claim isn't strong enough that you would take it on a contingent fee basis, it isn't that strong of a case. That's what I think about this claim. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 17:19:38 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: JW Subject: Hi- Class Message: Thanks- The messianic thing is the fraud. It doesn't seem like a stretch to see that the guy is into his own betterment, not that of others. Therefore, it's not whether he thought he was god, it's if he ever gave a shit about anybody but himself. But anyway, thanks for considering it. I know it's really a question of who would take the case. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 17:41:26 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Hi- Class Message: Therefore, it's not whether he thought he was god, it's if he ever gave a shit about anybody but himself. I agree with you, but him thinking he was god goes to intent, and you have to show intent to prove fraud. You almost would need some inner circle people to testify that he knowingly portrayed himself as god, when he knew he wasn't, and said as much, for the purpose of getting money. I think that's clearly what he has done, but proving that is something else. Also, there is nothing illegal about not giving a shit about other people, even your own devotees, unfortunately. There is also nothing illegal about getting outrageously rich as a religious leader off the donations and hard work of the very same devotees that he never gave a shit about. There ought to be a law against that, but there isn't. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 19:22:05 (EDT)
From: Joy Email: None To: JW Subject: Hi- Class Message: Thanks for the reality check, Joe. It's a fun fantasy, but guess it won't wash in the real world. And I'm sure you're right in that with all those clever, creative accountants like Michael Dettmers working for him, on paper he's probably poorer than me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 20:47:08 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Joy Subject: Not Dettmers Message: Joy, Maharaji doesn't have Mr. Personality to crunch numbers for him anymore. Donner told me that, just as he did, Dettmers found a way to exploit some premie business venture, made a fortune and split. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 12:53:37 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Jim Subject: Not Dettmers Message: Good for him. At least he didn't go away hungry. I hope he didn't rip other premies off, though. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 14:19:27 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gail Subject: Not Dettmers Message: Gail, When you're that prominent and you sneak off letting others continue being deceived, you ARE ripping people off by omission. My opinion anyway. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 14:47:27 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Peter and Michael Dettmers Message: I remember Michael Dettmers' bother, Peter, who was a very nice guy. Anyone know what happened to him? Also, Jim, how long ago did Michael Dettmers' split from his service? What business did he make money off of? Frankly, I know of other premies who, in addition to Maharaji himself, made money off the slavery of premies. There was a construction company in Miami, Rainbow Groceries, Amtext, Deca and others that wouldn't have gone anywhere, were it not for premies working for nothing. It's not hard to make money if you can just exploit your employees. I wouldn't be surprised if Dettmers benefited from that as well. I recall him speaking to coordinators at a conference in Kansas City in 1981. I remember him telling us to 'don't do anything, do nothing, don't do anything...' He just kept bellowing that over and over. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 20:19:07 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Potential client Subject: Silly me Message: Silly me, I always get the names of these close devotees of Maharaji mixed up. Now was Fakiranand the one who regularly sexually molests children or is he the one who smashed someone's head in with a hammer and killed him? I would ask the new premie web site called 'Enjoying Life' but I'm afraid I've lost their web address. So please someone here, was Fakiranand the child molester or the psychopathic hammer wielding killer. Please, I don't know the answer. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 02:01:57 (EDT)
From: x Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Silly me Message: Sir David, Fakiranand is the freak who beat the pie thrower in the head with a hammer. The guy didn't die though, he just wound up needing a metal plate in his head. As far as the child molesters go, I am pretty sure it was Charanand who did the major molesting. Also I read on this site about Jagdeo doing some molesting as well. I even recall someone saying that there were some children conceived illegitamately by some of these monsters! Does anyone with better knowledge of these events care to elaborate? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 04:01:11 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: x Subject: Silly me Message: I don't think Guru Charanand was the molester at all. Jagdeo was according to reports. The guy who got a plate in his head died two months later from a brain hemmorage. Isn't it ironic that the same thing came back to haunt MJ years later (Marolyn's annerism). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 05:53:53 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Gail Subject: No statute of lim on murder Message: I thought that the guy died from his injuries and so I am correct when I say that Fakiranand killed someone with a hammer. Surely the police would still be interested in this case, even after 25 years. A murder is a murder, is it not. Now were the police fully informed at the time of the identity of the killer? I doubt it. So correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't now be as good a time as any to inform the police of the identity of the murderer and how he fits in to Maharaji's organisation and about the fact that Maharaji knows the whereabouts and identity of the killer but has shielded him for all these years. Surely, doesn't this make Maharaji an accesory to murder? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 08:21:12 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Mahatmas Message: It's hard to keep all these guys straight, but Gail's got it right that Fakiranand was the guy who assaulted the reporter with the hammer. I believe, according to op, that Fakiranand went back to India with Mata Ji after the Holy family split (correct me if I am wrong, anyone). So I am not sure if M would know where he was. Regarding child molestation, I have NEVER heard that Charanand was accused of anything like that. (Consensual sex, maybe, but that's not a crime). JagDeo and Parlokanand were both accused of molesting underage children. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 22:17:22 (EDT)
From: Was blind... Email: None To: Katie Subject: But now I see. Message: Parlokanand ... accused of molesting... I thought there was something fishy about my knowledge session. No wonder I never saw the light-- I WAS SQUEEZING THE WRONG BALLS! Parlokanand said it was a tantric thing... Gerry Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 17:40:30 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Was blind... Subject: But now I see. Message: Gerry: Between YOU and JW, I'm not going to swallow a drop of my coffee. I keep spitting into my workstation (that happens to be a server, too). NOW CUT THAT OUT!!!!!!!!! Just kidding... keep it up, it brightens my entire day! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 08:37:58 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Sir David Subject: No statute of lim on murder 2 Message: Thanks for that bit of info Katie. Look, let me summarise; An young American citizen was brutally beaten about the head with a hammer by one of Maharaji's henchmen. The youth later died from his injuries. The murderer went back to his native India and nobody seems to give a fuck about justice! I mean, that youth who threw the pie at Maharaji did not get peace from Maharaji's mission, did he. And Maharaji's brothers would know who the killer was or where he was lurking, even if Maharaji claimed he didn't. Surely an extradition order could be filed for the arrest and return of Fakiranand for the murder of the cream pie thrower. This should not be laid to rest or just forgotten about. The family of the dead youth deserve better than that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 11:20:36 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Sir David Subject: No statute of lim on murder 3 Message: The reason why I didn't feel so strongly about this before was because I wasn't certain if the cream pie thrower had died or not. Now it seems certain that he died. What would be needed is the following; the name of the young man who was hammered by Fakiranand. The date and location where this happened. Approximations will do. More details about the hammering if they are known. And if anyone knows too, the real name of Fakiranand. Although I live in Britain, I would be happy to pass on any relevant information to the US police. In Britain, the law states that if ANYONE holds back any information regarding a murder, from the police, they are liable to be charged with accesory to murder. I presume the US law is the same. Also in Britain, people are charged with murder even if the murdered person dies many months after their injuries were inflicted, provided it is shown that the person's death was caused by injuries received in the original attack. I presume the same applies in the US. Also in Britain, murders as long ago as the fifties and sixties are frequently investigated. Usually through new evidence turning up and pressure from the murdered person's reletives. If nothing was done at the time of Fakiranand's hammer wieding incident, if no premies spoke out, then it is never too late to do so. In fact, it is our duty to do so. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 11:58:54 (EDT)
From: NI Email: None To: Sir David Subject: excellent idea Message: i think a law suit is an excellent idea and i strongly recommend it. we would have to have real facts, real accusations, real names and no more innuendo and hearsay. i also will volunteer to do counter-lawsuits...this is just what i was waiting for! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 12:04:26 (EDT)
From: Joy Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Go Adam Dalgleish! Message: David, I believe the guy's name was Pat Haley and he lived in Detroit, Michigan. He is featured in that Lord of the Universe film talking about why he did it; he sounded a very cool guy, one of those lively sincere activist types with a creative sense of humor. I am very sorry to hear he actually died a few months later, he seemed fine when being interviewed for the film. Perhaps if there are any ex's in the Detroit area they can see if his family can be found and contacted to see if they wish to pursue the investigation and bringing to justice of the killer(s). I think that would be a very worthwhile cause. Nobody should be allowed to get away with murdering someone, for whatever reason, and then just disappear back to India. Good luck trying to track him down, though, what with almost a billion people in India! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 13:54:04 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Sir David Subject: No statute of lim on murder 3 Message: David, It's not at all clear to me that Haley died from this attack (within the 1 year time span necessary to make the assault murder). But, if he did, you're right, there's no statute of limitations problem. Mike Donner told me that Maharaji himself told Mike to drive Mahatma Ji to Chicago and get him out of the country. Apparently Mishler was at that meeting too. IF Haley is indeed an accesory after the fact. Good luck proving it, though. Donner's in a foreign country and, at best, it'd be his word against Maharaji's. That wouldn't be enough to interest any law enforcement kind of guys. Maybe it's just enough to let the truth be known here and not forgotten. Any new premies out there (new, as in post '73!), you should know that your guru is an accesory to murder. Plain and simple. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 13:57:12 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: correction Message: IF Haley is indeed an accesory after the fact. should read 'IF Haley did indeed die within a year that makes Maharaji and accessory after the fact.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 18:16:25 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Sir David Subject: No statute of lim on murder 3 Message: I'm not so sure Pat Haley did die, and if he did that it had anything to do with the attack. As Joy said, he appeared in the LOTU video, which was made in 1974, maybe a year after Fakiranand attacked him, and he looked pretty good at that time, like he had recovered from his injuries. He did have to have a plate installed in his head because his skull had been crushed. I was in Chicago when Fakiranand got sent there from Detroit, was distraught, and left the ashram as 'Mr. Fakir' for the airport. We were told he was going to Europe and later I heard he ended up back in India. I don't know what kind of effort the police in Detroit made to go after him. I heard Mishler answer questions about the incident at a meeting in Amherst in the Summer of 1974, and I recall he said the incident was still under investigation by the police, but that's the last I ever heard anything about it. Funny, among premies, and in DLM, hardly anyone ever spoke of it again. It was also interesting that I never heard anyone try to deny that Fakiranand had really done the dirty deed, rather, DLM just said they didn't know where he was, and didn't help him avoid facing justice. That, I think from what I saw myself, and especially from what Donner told Jim, is a big fat lie. Parlokanand was definitely a child-molester, and according to people who have posted here, so was Jagdeo. The Parlokanand thing was common knowledge among premies back in 1975, and he got sent back to India in disgrace. But I didn't know about Jagdeo until I heard about it on this forum. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 21:31:19 (EDT)
From: Mc Email: e_mc_42@hotmail.com To: JW Subject: No statute of lim on murder 3 Message: Although I don't recall Pat Haley in the LOTU, I definitely recall seeing the film in 1973 before the Millenium festival. This would be somewhere near the time of the incident. As I recall, this wasn't the final version of the film but it was shown publicly at the time in Philadelphia. Was it part of a 'road show' with the Bhole Ji band? Does anyone remember this and can clarify it for me? It's been 25 years... (I'd like to borrow a tape of LOTU sometime if possible - my wife, never a premie, finds it hard to believe I was ever into anything as bizzare as this and thinks it would be a real hoot to see). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 21:58:25 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mc Subject: No, Mc, no Message: Mc, I'm not sure what film you're thinking of ('Satguru Has Come' maybe?) but it wasn't LOTU. That film was made about and after Millenium and it's definitely not guru agitprop. (To make matters more confusing, there actually was a 1971 or 2 film made the premies also called LOTU. Had a very reddish tinge to it, I recall, and shots of Suzie Bai singing in India.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 22:57:18 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Mc Subject: No statute of lim on murder 3 Message: No, I think you are thinking of 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?' which came out right around Millennium time. It had a darshan line in it (with 'At the Feet of the Master' being sung in the background) from Guru Puja in London, which I think was in July, 1973. It also started out with that really stupid light show at the beginning and those stick characters looking for truth in all the wrong places. I think Joan Apter did the narration. No DLM film would have featured Pat Haley. No way, Jose. By the way, the LOTU video shows Big M getting hit in the face with a pie. It's my favorite part of the film. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 02:33:59 (EDT)
From: x Email: None To: JW Subject: No statute of lim on murder 3 Message: Pat Haley is the closest thing we've got to a hero around here. Imagine, nailing the Lord of the Universe in the face with a pie! What a burn! Him and Bob Mischler deserve to be cannonized, especially if Haley died from Fakiranands beating. I don't know though, I recently saw LOTU, and Haley seemed totally recovered. What exactly is the info regarding his death? Gail, are you sure he died? x Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 16:09:59 (EDT)
From: Mc Email: e_mc_42@hotmail.com To: JW, Jim, et.al. Subject: LOTU clarification Message: Thank you for helping my memory...what I'm recalling was definitely a premie, DLM produced film which as JW pointed out was 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?' (which would fit into the Millenium era PR/marketing). Yes, I do recall that light show at the beginning. I'm still interested in seeing LOTU or WIGMJi for that matter if there's a way. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 16:47:59 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mc Subject: LOTU clarification Message: Mc, I actually nought the thing from some distributor for an unreasonably high price and gave out a few copies. Then others started circulating them and I think there are a few out there. Someone should be able to send you one, I think. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 23:12:07 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@Mail.trib.net To: Mc Subject: LOTU video copies? Message: Hi Mc - There are several copies of LOTU (the TV documentary of Millenium and Soul Rush) circulating around the country. If you e-mail me your name and address, I'll try and get you a copy to borrow. You have to PROMISE to send it back though, lest the wrath of the webmaster fall upon your head! I haven't heard of any copies of 'Satguru has Come' floating around - it would be fun (maybe) to see that again. Regards, Katie P.S. If anyone is reading this who has a copy that they can lend Mc, please e-mail me. My copy is out and about right now. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 12:51:47 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Metal Plate Inserted Message: I remember the guy getting a metal plate in his head and surviving at least for several years after. Nonetheless, perhaps F-anand still could be pursued. There was also an American accomplice, who was one of two twin brothers. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 13:01:27 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: All Subject: Add'l Stuff Message: The tour with Bole Ji was called Soul Rush. Dunno what the date was. I remember seeing some film and dunno where, with the American Pat Haley perpetrator saying that he would 'slit his throat' in reference to someone bad mouthing M or something like that (in reference to a theoretical situation not Pat Haley specifically). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 13:08:43 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Almost Message: Run, What you saw was LOTU in which one of the security regulars was being interviewed simultaneously with M's press conference at the Astrodome. M is inside talking about how they're trying to get to the bottom of the Haley incident. Meanwhile, this guy (who everyone seems to recognize and JW, I think, can actually name) explains that if he had been there, that's what he would have done -- split his throat 'on the spot'. 'Really? Just for throwing a pie?' 'Yeah, on the spot.' Hey, I might have said the same thing back then. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 13:17:07 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Add'l Stuff Message: Soul Rush. Dunno what the date was. That was right before the Millenium event. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 13:39:48 (EDT)
From: Joy Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Add'l Stuff Message: Run, that was not Pat Haley who said he would slit anybody's throat, it was one of Maharaji's security guys. He stated he would have slit the pie-thrower's throat on the spot had he been there. When the interviewer expressed surprise at this, he repeated with emphasis, 'On the spot!' Pat Haley was actually a very cool guy, his little interview in the LOTU video proves this. He said he wasn't trying to physically hurt Maharaji, just 'dis' him a little bit, bring him 'down to street level' what with all his fancy suits and limosines, etc. Pat Haley, if he is indeed dead, is probably the closest thing we have to a martyr. Maybe we should make a little corner of the site a small memorial for him, with a photo and a RIP and a small description of what happened. He should not be forgotten! For that matter, what about all the people who have died as a direct result of involvement in Maharaji's cult? Maybe we should make a little memorial to all of them, describing the circumstances of their deaths, etc. (such as the victims of that Florida ashram shooting). What do you say, VP? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 17:31:28 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Joy Subject: Add'l Stuff Message: Joy, That would be an eye-opening addition to the site. I know Jim and Katie know people who died, and I'm sure others probably do, too. What are Brian's thoughts about something like that? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 14:05:20 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Add'l Stuff Message: Hi Runamok - I heard from a premie friend of mine this morning, who doesn't want to be identified (for obvious reasons), and he says: 1. Fakiranand was sent back to India in the middle of the night (as we know) and dumped Maharaji for Mata Ji severai months later during the holy family split. He died in India about 5-10 years ago. 2. The American premie who helped Fakiranand with the assault actually did go to trial, but not to jail, and had to pay a fine. As many people here probably know, lawsuits are anathema to me (sorry, Jim). However, if you, or others, are still interested in this case, it might be worth doing some research on this before you go to much farther: contacting the Detroit Free Press, the Detroit Police, contacting Pat Halley if he's still around, seeing if there was any kind of settlement paid to him or his family by DLM, etc. Take care, Run, (Gotta run...) Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 16:06:41 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: WHAT??? Message: 2. The American premie who helped Fakiranand with the assault actually did go to trial, but not to jail, and had to pay a fine. This is the first I've ever heard of this. How does your friend know? I'm doubtful, for some reason. But if it is true, I'd like to track the matter down. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 17:02:39 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: WHAT??? Message: Jim, I heard all this from someone else who doesn't want to post here. This person who spoke to me knows about the fine, etc. because he knew the premie who helped Fakiranand. He probably won't reveal the name though, Jim, because the guy who did it felt horrible about the whole thing afterwards, and I doubt if he'd want it dredged up on this page. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 19:20:00 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: WHAT??? Message: Katie, I recall someone else reporting here that the ashram brother that went with Fakiranand when he tired to kill Pat Haley did indeed feel bad about it but that he was whisked off to the Honolulu ashram or something. I've got a hard time believing this was disposed of so discreetly, by way of a fine no less. It's not beyond question. I'm just curious, that's all. Anyone else know anything? If that guy were around it'd be worthwhile tracking him down regardless of how badly he feels. The fact is, they tried to kill someone because of this cult, the cult's still in motion. This guy's got a public responsibility. By the way, that's why I've decided to say publically that Donner told me that he drove Fakiranand to Chicago on Maharaji's orders. No, nothing will ever come of it, I'm sure. But let's be clear about this, Maharaji did indeed protect the close devotee who tried to kill the prankster who threw a cream pie in his face. 'Enjoy life', my ass. I read those fools over on that site and I just hanker for a few minutes of their time. I'd like to ask them which moments they think Maharaji enjoys most, time spent meditating and hanging out with his family, or time spent fucking his mistress. There are other questions too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 14:50:33 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Runamok Subject: It was on TV Message: You probably saw it on television. LOTU was a PBS production and was shown on PBS in 1974 a few months after the Millennium festival. I didn't see it, but I remember we premies were all agast because the techniques were revealed on national television! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 14:52:08 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: JW Subject: Aghast not Agast -- sorry (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 17:28:38 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: All Subject: What HAST God Wrought Message: Yah Joy, I was not saying that was Pat Haley. Pie throwing was a popular 'Yippie' tactic, your average anti-political politics of the day. The 'slit his throat' guy was F-anand's actual accomplice to the best of my memory. He had a twin brother. I also distinctly recall that F-anand was in one of BB's ashrams in India. Well you know how heresay goes. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 17:43:34 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Runamok Subject: What HAST God Wrought Message: The 'slit-his-throat' guy in the LOTU video was Fats Goldstein. HE was NOT Fakiranand's accomplice. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 21:22:41 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: JW Subject: What HAST God Wrought Message: OK. I dunno but the guys were twins with black wiry hair. They were tall and kinda geeky. I used to hear stories about how enlightened they were before it happen. They had lived somewhere isolated like the bahamas or something. I remember it being the guy but it's been awhile. Was his name Paul? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 15:48:22 (EDT)
From: Seymour Email: seymour_t@rocketmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Beware the Body Snatchers Message: After not having been on the inernet much over the last month or so (due to working many hours to keep the wolves from the door) I thought I would try and contribute to the forum with a few thoughts that arise from watching the original Invasion.. film. I am intrigued by the new premie web site maybe I should send them the following 'expression'. I can't see them using it on their Introductory page though. There are many of our fellow humans who have had their bodies and minds taken over by an insiduous force. Whilst retaining the appearance of their former selves and apparently acting in much the same way the friend, relative, colleague that you once knew, the same person is no longer living within that body. The people who are in this state are members of a 'collective' and it is even more terrifying that they do not even recognise this themselves. They think that they continue to act autonomously whereas they are gradually being more assimilated into the conventionial, non-critical perspective that is common to their brood. I know that this is hard to believe but if you fail to recognise the trap then you too will fall into it. The brood is constantly wishing to recruit new members and their methods can be so subtle that you may not be aware that you are being lured into a world from which you will find it etremely hard to break free. Myself and a few others have made the transition back this world but it was not easy and we continue to regret the missing years between our abduction ( during which our minds were systematically altered to lasting detrimental effect) and our eventual escape. We now hope that our warning will be heeded and that those who are searching for peace, joy and truth are not taken in by any of the 'snatchers' that only live to propogate their false reality and eliminate the rational part of our minds, stifle our creativity, dismiss the lessons that we have learnt from history, ignore academic achievement, demean the love and loyalty that exists between humans, narrow our vision of what is enjoyable and make us feel guilty if we do not practise the techniques that are a mandatory part of the strange lifestyle. Another of the misleading ways of this group is to create false associations which attribute feeling good with the techniques or the 'grace' of the master, even breathing and the sound of our body's regular internal functions become associated with mysticism as does and the natural results of stimulating our optic nerve. As these techniques are practised we feel more dependent on them and the one who claims to have mastered them - eventually, like a drug addict, afraid to do anything in the world unless we have had a 'fix'. Of course we also become infatuated with the distributor of the 'knowledge' which is claimed to be the solution to life's suffering and a valid method of finding true happiness. Those who have succumed to the brain washing crave the support of others in order to sustain the distorted perspective that they have arrived at through the teachings of the master and the subliminal conditioning that is continually taking place. Even though they may seem like the friends that you once knew - if you do not agree with them regarding knowledge and maharaji you are their enemy. So watch out - there are premies about! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 16:06:44 (EDT)
From: Laura Email: None To: Seymour Subject: Beware the Body Snatchers Message: Great post - thank you. I am still transitioning back to this world and you're right, it's not easy. But once you see through the garbage that gmj says, there is nothing to do but to come back to the living. I am mourning my missing years and yearning to become alive again. And I am still figuring out why I bought into the father/God, you should feel totally dependent upon me for your every breath figure of GMJ. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 16:16:10 (EDT)
From: Seymour Email: None To: Laura Subject: Beware the Body Snatchers Message: Hi Laura, You say 'I am mourning my missing years and yearning to become alive again.' From what I have read of your posts I think that you qualify as very much 'alive' - i.e. aware, sensitive and rational. I guess you are much more alive than you used to be when you were under the influence of the group consciousness of Elan Vital/DLM. All the best. Seymour. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 16:43:24 (EDT)
From: Laura Email: None To: Seymour Subject: Beware the Body Snatchers Message: Hi Seymour, thanks for replying. I'm alive, of course, but really really confused. My major activity for the past 20 years has been reading new-age books. I was a real new-age speak person. But the reading and new age personality was only to give me support in my belief of K and GMJ. I didn't have premies around. So, going through mid-life and feeling lonely and confused, suicidal too, I start searching for premies in the flesh. Found them on the phone, all I heard was meditate, you're not meditating enough. And premies sent me videos. And premies told me to go to a knowledge session because knowledge or techniques have changed. Well, how the fuck (excuse my language but I am really getting a kick out of using this word) could Knowledge change? I mean if you breathe harder does the word vibrate more? Squeeze your eyeballs a little less and the psychadelics are different, or squeeze more towards the bridge of your nose and what, the light turns into a different shade? Music turns from crickets to violins by listening to it first or last? Give me a break. So i didn't get a knowledge review and having contact with premies still wasn't enough. So I said to myself, 'Laura, you have Knowledge. Why aren't you happy, why aren't you at peace?' Well, fuck, I didn't know. So, I started meditating more and watching more videos. And the new-age speak started flowing again. And still I'm not happy. Suicidal thoughts coming more frequently. Crying jags. And I have knowledge! So I search the web, and lo and behold, ah ha, found this site! And I started reading and thinking and realizing the truth. And so knowledge didn't do it for me because knowledge isn't the big IT. The reason I'm so sad is because I missed some of my life, good years, growing years, family years. I'm out of shape mentally and physically, uneducated, and need to learn how to open my heart again. So that's what I mean to be 'alive'. To be willing to open my heart to this life, to my life, to be willing to live this life in a wonderful way. Thanks for listening. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 18:08:35 (EDT)
From: seymour Email: None To: Laura Subject: Beware the Body Snatchers Message: Hi Laura, This is a bit rushed as I have to go out, but in response to your post.... Maybe the New Age books are not the best way forward. The whole knowledge thing is typical of New age thinking. Supply and Demand. We all want to feel comfortable and happy and there are plenty of 'masters' and psycho-philosophies that are only too willing to step in and offer the path to fulfillment. The trouble is they haven't got a clue. You know as much as the next person. |I do know what you mean about being out of shape - but it's never too late to get in shape, and I'm not talking about going down the gym. I found a great comfort in studying the history of philosophy, sociology, psychology etc. - all the things that I was told were a waste of time during my long period as a premie. It's rediculous to think that I fell for it. I mean there have been such great thinkers over the years ( Aristotle, Plato, Kant, Shakespeare to name but four of thousands) It is so arrogant to think that we cannot learn from them. Join the search for Truth - it may not provide a cosy, comfy environment but it is much more fullfilling than practising knowledge. You say 'To be willing to open my heart to this life, to my life, to be willing to live this life in a wonderful way' I couldn't have put it better myself. Don't give up the ghost. There is a lot of magic out there and you don't need anyone to lead you to it. Take Care Seymour. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 11:39:07 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Laura Subject: Beware the Body Snatchers Message: Laura, Thanks so much for that post. I had a friend who took his life and I believe that he had the same feelings you described above. It is really hard to lose someone to suicide because you can never ask them exactly why...but I have always suspected that what you wrote above also happened to him. Anyway, thanks again. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 14:16:19 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Bal Bhagwan Ji's olive branch Message: This was lifted from that site where this guy checks out some of the hindu pilgrimage spots along the ganges. One was Prem Nagar, the ashram Maharaji used to have until he lost it to his older brother, Guru Maharaj Ji: 'Satpal began by explaining that Hardwar means the door (dvar )of Har, or Shiva, because it is the point of departure for pilgrims who are travelling to Kedarnath, a major Shaiva pilgrimage center in the mountains. Similarly, a human birth is the door to realizing God. Satpal then told the story of how the gods and demons churned the ocean to obtain the ambrosia of immortality. The first product of their labors was a devastating poison which Shiva agreed to drink lest it destroy all living things. Satpal offered a spiritual interpretation of this myth. We must also consume poison, by enduring all kinds of difficulties in life, before we can obtain immortality. The secret for learning how to do this is satsang, meeting with the saints. People are running to the Ganges, Satpal said, but it can only wash away their bodily impurities. Much more important is to get rid of inner impurities, and this can only be accomplished through satsang. The guru spoke critically of all the controversy that has marred the Kumbh. 'How much time we are wasting in fighting with each other!' Through spiritual experience you realize that God is in everyone, and then all divisions come to an end. Satpal urged his listeners to seek out satsang while they are at the Kumbh, and to practice meditation and devotional singing. Though he is a former member of Parliament, who has also run unsuccessfully for political office several times, Satpal's sermon struck me as quite traditional. He quoted the late medieval poets Tulsidas and Guru Nanak, and much of what he said about the difficulties of life in this world and the importance of spiritual experience could have just as easily been Nanak's words.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 22:19:42 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: Jim Subject: Bal Bhagwan Ji's olive branch Message: So, bal bhagwan (means -little god-), says the point is to endure troubles and go to satsang to attain 'immortality'. Boy what a carrot at the end of the long suffering devotee path. immortality. The ultimate is to attend satsang. good grief. lets see, going to satsang gets you to meditate an hour a day and give money and time to the rawat clan. And with immortality you can do that till the end of time. But I guess immortality has no end so it is a promise of endless something, but what? thanks for the lie rawat. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 14:12:27 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Aw Jack, I'm hurt Message: Well, Jack finally Expressed himself: A breath of fresh air Nice to finally see something out here in cyberspace that I can connect to. The site is very nicely done and I look forward to watching its evolution. Representative of a standard that over the years I have grown to love and appreciate... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 14:39:10 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: Aw Jack, I'm not hurt Message: Is the statement Jack made to me: Was it good for your horse? representative of the standard that over the years Jack has come to know and appreciate? Don't think I care, Jack. Just questioning your standards. Love and Peace, VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 17:59:52 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: VP Subject: Aw Jack, I'm not hurt Message: Hi Veep - I saw what Jack wrote. I thought it was unkind and tasteless, since you were just trying to say hello and continue a joke that you and he had been tossing back and forth a few months ago. Maybe he forgot, or maybe that's what passes for manly humor up there in BC. I still think Jack is OK, but I'd rather talk to him by e-mail than on the forum, and, from experience, I've learned never to get in the middle of a conversation between Jack and Jim Heller. Sorry you got burned. Take care, Katie I am sick with some mysterious illness so hope this post is coherent, because I'm not. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 18:26:23 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Why? Message: I've learned never to get in the middle of a conversation between Jack and Jim Heller. Sorry, it's so hard to figure out whose position you most agree with, Katie. Yeah, I know, sometimes life's pretty complicated. Hope you feel better beyond all that. Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 19:21:29 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Sheesh, Jim! Message: The reason why I don't like to get into arguments between you and Jack, Jim, is not because it's so hard to figure out whose position you most agree with. (That was a rather patronizing things to say, IMHO.) The reason why is because you and Jack know each other from the past, tend to go after each other tooth and nail, and anyone else who tries to interject a joke or a greeting, like VP did, is likely to get toothed and nailed from either you or Jack. Does that explain it better? Thanks for the feeling better wishes anyway. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 23:22:27 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: Aw Jack, I'm not hurt Message: Thanks, Katie. I couldn't care less what Jack says to me or thinks of me. I do find it hypocricital for a person to call others 'negative' or 'full of anger' and then turn around and make comments that are negative or angry. That's the only reason I brought it up again. Jack is human just like we all are. He just needs to get off the holier than thou thing. It's nauseating. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 22:41:09 (EDT)
From: Jack Email: None To: VP Subject: Relax VP Message: For God's sake VP don't take yourself so seriously. It was a joke... a joke! I was happy to hear from you. You rode your horse.. I asked if it was good for your horse. I believe the joke before was that horses liked to be ridden by you... ah never mind... pick you up on the rebound. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 22:47:39 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Jack Subject: Relax VP Message: My apologies, Jack. I thought it was a tasteless joke. You know 'Was it good for you?' Never mind. You are right, that was the joke. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 16:45:10 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: VP Subject: Jack's got all the markings Message: of a stuffy, religious prig. Let's face it, years of dipping in this toxic guru sludge has: 1) made Jack an ostrich in terms of science and real knowledge of life and the world. Is he a creationist? Are most premies? Listen, I'll tell you how bad it is. They're so fucked up and jammed up by this cult they don't even know what they're supposed to think. If life is a bowling alley, and Creationism a gutter ball, these premies are still sitting outside in their special events bus in the parking lot. At least creationists try to understand the world given the ridiculous assumptions they're willing to make. Premies literally worship ignorance (which they call innocence). 2) made Jack a hypocrite of the first order. Every time he's shown up here he's fallen flat on his face and he knows it. He's attacked, slandered and thrown out every cheap shot he could muster in order to defend his pathetic state but, all the while, like someone lost in a dream, pretending that he's approaching us all from some higher moral ground. Now, his little Expression just follows suit. 3) made Jack lose an real sense of language and meaning. Like I say, talking with him is not unlike trying to play with a stripped screw. The thread's gone. Ther's no reasoning. Oh yeah, at the outset there might be, but try to tighten it a bit, try to actually make a point. A simple point. Forget it. There's no honesty, no consistency, no nothing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 17:47:42 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim you missed your calling... Message: ...to be a writer. It's probably due to that damn cult you were in, but of course it's never too late. If life is a bowling alley, and Creationism a gutter ball, these premies are still sitting outside in their special events bus in the parking lot. You are so damn funny, but you make a good point. Jack can't defend his position because it makes no sense. I suspect this is why Chris is a man of few words on this forum. (My theoretical contribution to the CD communication research project) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Oct 14, 1998 at 19:30:48 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: VP Subject: CD-CRP Message: VP: Are you taking donations for the CD-CRP? My wallet is fat now that I don't send my money to the fatboy! ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 22:52:42 (EDT)
From: Jack Email: None To: Jim Subject: pfsplatttt.... Message: Jim, it's come to this for you in your life has it... you've become a really good name-caller. You're too much... really! I thought I was carrying on a rather civilized conversation with you until now. What... were you losing an argument or something??? Name-calling re-establishes your self-esteem? As in the case of the last time (and the times before.... sheesh when will I ever learn), I'll exit before I get too soiled in your company... the company of name-callers. Finally I've figured it out. Say, if we meet sometime on the streets of Victoria, you'll understand if I don't pay you the time of day. Ciao Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Oct 14, 1998 at 10:37:33 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jack Subject: blind hypocrisy Message: Jack, Your inability to see yourself and constant blatant hypocrisy is amazing. Let me remind you what happened. You said you didn't care what Maharaji does. Besides, you weren't going to concern yourself with hearsay. I then asked what you meant. Were you saying you didn't care about the hearsay because of its weak evidentiary value or because you just didn't care about it subject matter, true or not, proveable or not. Okay? No one had insulted anyone yet. We were just talking. Right? Just having a little conversation. Then, you say: I might say prove it... and I might not give a shit. To date you've given me hearsay, and head-food arguments laced with courtroom styled theatrics. Beside the fact that you're beginning to sound like a real country bumpkin or religious zealot ('what, you ain't coming round here trying to stuff my family with none of your book-learnin' are ya?! Get off my land, now, ya' hear? Geddon! No, I don't want to hear none of yo' head-food arguments and you can just spare your courtroom-styled theatrications, none neither!'), beside that, I'd say it was you who started the insults, brother. Face it, I asked you a straightforward question. You could ahve answered it. Instead you insulted me. Then, you cry foul and put on your nicey-nicey face to share your 'love' and 'high expectations' over on the cardboard page. You're too much. What's with you? Have you lost all sense of yourself? Can't you see what a hypocrite you are? Everytime you've shown up here you've gathered a LOT of disdain. Why? Not because you're a premie. That might be enough for some of us, but not for others. It certainly isn't the problem in your case. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 22:35:46 (EDT)
From: Jack Email: None To: VP Subject: Aw Jack, I'm not hurt Message: Not representative of shit VP... Do try to keep your sense of humour above all this one-up-man-ship garbage. J Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 22:45:04 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Jack Subject: Humour is intact Message: Sense of humour is intact, J. If it's shit, why do you read it? :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 13:33:44 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Raider of the Lost Ark Message: Boy these premies are funny! Check out Mr. McKay here: It has been a continual journey of discovery for me from a very early age. You could liken my lifestyle to that of Crocodile Dundee and Indiana Jones. and, then, the typical premie 'hey-I'm-a-person-too' stuff: I am happily married with four children; my wife Jennifer has Knowledge. I am fortunate to still have my mother and father, and indeed father in law, who all regularly go along to video events. Although my dad does not have Knowledge, he loves to listen to Maharaji, as he feels that what he says is so practical and enjoyable. Tell me, Ian, what else does your family do for laughs? I mean besides renting blockbuster movies so they can all sit around going, 'hey, that's just like our Ian, i'nt it mate?' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 05:18:04 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: jdjd@jfjff To: Everyone Subject: Take it or leave it. Message: Look..I just started attending progs and practising again after 10 years smoking and drinking myself into a happy frame of mind. I tried everything and up to a point I enjoyed it. A friend of mine got sick through smoking and It shocked me to stop. One Saturday I decided to go to a prog, mainly so that I wouldn't drink that night. Well that was a prog that got me right out of the shit and more. 1 hour video and there I was grinning to myself driving the 30 miles home. For the first time in 10 yrs I felt loved, protected and clear. I practised that night and havn't missed a day since. (Nearly 3 months) I really am so happy and free. Even the missing 10 years don't bother me. It made me appreciate knowledge more than ever and I wouldn't swap my life now for anybody's. Why not give yourSELF a chance to be loved again. Peace and happiness to all of you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 07:45:47 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Rob Subject: Born again Christian Message: Sorry about your friend, Rob. And sorry about all that there drinking and smoking. But let's get real here, mi amigo. In one corner you've got the eldest son of a renegade guru (one who broke away from his franchise holder) who -- the son, I'm talking -- used to campaign for his baby brother as the Lord of the Universe. Now HE'S the man. In the other corner, you've got the other brother who claims to have a postcard dad sent the whole family when he was eight explaining just who was going to be the Lord of the Universe when he departed. Do I have to go on? Rob, you probably agree with me in thinking, rather strongly, that christians are dreaming when they imagine Jesus in their hearts. Does it change things when they drift for a while in the world and then take Jesus right back in? Of course not. I'm a criminal lawyer and have seen this happen lots: someone fucks up, either loses their family and career through drugs or crime, or worse lands in jail, and they get born-again. Sure, you could go on all day about how they're not exactly meditating and thus aren't having an 'experience' in the premie lexicon. But that difference would be lost on them, let me tell you. The fact is they sound exactly like you. They've found someone to talk to insdie. That feels good. Who really cares how real it is? There are LOTS of religious people in the world. Lots. Why? Because of the pleasure of the fantasy you're signing up for. But think of the price you're paying. Your naturally inquisitive mind really would like to know what the truth of the matter is. For example -- who the fuck is Maharaji's brother anyway? Well, sorry fella, you can't go there. You're resigning yourself to a world of appearances. Is it true that Maharaji has been fucking around on his wife for years? Oops, better stick in another video! Best of luck. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 10:09:48 (EDT)
From: Helen Clark Email: None To: Rob Subject: Take it or leave it. Message: Rob--there's nothing wrong with meditating...the reason I left GM is that I was unable to reconcile the giver of the gift with the gift. Gm's lack of ethics and integrity really bothered me so I took a break from it which turned out to be a permanent break, My husband (who is a total skeptic) says that GM 'wants to be a rock star, not a minister' which I think is great. GM doesn't want to connect with us with us in a real way, with all our humanity, diversity, pain, sorrow, and practical problems, instead he tells us to just meditate. If you are confused I suggest you keep checking out this website, and reconcile the lifestyle/ethics of the 'Master' with your desire for clarity in your life--SIncerely, Helen Clark (I have a journey story in JOurneys section) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 08:32:43 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Rob Subject: I'll LEAVE IT! Message: Rob: Thanks for reminding me that I have a choice between fantasy and reality.... I'll take the reality-sandwich, thank you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 14:12:15 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Everyone Subject: More BS from enjoyinglife Message: I don't think I shall go to the enjoyinglife site anymore as their revisionism and sweetness and light is making me ill, but I did notice this little gem on the wit and wisdom page: 'John Macgregor Byron Bay, Australia The gospel of St Thomas Jesus said, 'I will give you what no eye has seen and what no ear has heard and what no hand has touched and what has never occurred to the human mind.' - Gospel of Thomas (perhaps the oldest verifiable record of Jesus' sayings)' Well, Mr. Macgregor, in the first place, the Gospel of Thomas is not the oldest verifiable record of Jesus' sayings as there IS no 'verifiable' record of Jesus' sayings (how the hell would you verify it? Compare handwriting?). Secondly, the biblical scholars who make up the Jesus Seminar have coloured this saying 'black,' which, according to their method means: 'Jesus did not say this; it represents the perspectrive or content of a later or different tradition. (The Five Gospels, p36)' Just wanted to get this in before the 'Jesus taught this Knowledge' squad tries to push this one, since one is not allowed to challenge anything on that site. I am enjoying my life looking up obscure references from non-canonical sources! Mickey the Exegete. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 16:55:45 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Glad we have a Bible expert on Message: board! It is amazing how the mahatmas would pull passages out of the Torah, Koran, New Testiment, Bhagavagita, etc. to prove that this is the K of all Ks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 17:16:37 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Gail Subject: Glad to observe Message: The point is to look at the passages from all those famous historic documents and observe that there is a strong similarity in the main messages. Tha mahatmas did a service by promoting a common posotive theme. This is in contrast to the divisions that have been created in society by the religions which proclaim that those documents are the foundations of their teachings. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 17:45:38 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: CD Subject: Glad to observe Message: CD: By 'picking and choosing' your favorite passages from each of those books, as the mahatmas did, you are doing nothing more than producing eclectic nonsense. If I pick the 'right' passages, I'll bet I could get the 'bible' to agree with 'mein kampf.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 20:34:07 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: CD Subject: Glad to be the doer Message: Hi CD, are you sure you want to blame institutions? Dont fergit that it is only people. People everywhere. We are built to be at odds and the utopian dreamers are not going to get thier way. Why should we give up human nature to march in lock step? The more fragmented we are, the more democratic and free we must be. If only, if only, if only we would all just see one persons view on life. And accept it and follow it. Then spirituality would attain something? The impulse to rule is to be fought against by the rest of the humans so they can aviod the tyrants who would rule us by divine right or other logics. Cant we see that the sentences in the religions point us to all find the harmony in following someone that is just a definately flawed regular person? Kieth believes in the new age idea that we are on some evolution to the next step. VERY optomistic. Human nature is very potent and in us. For all my breathing, it takes becomeing the person you want to be and breath doesnt do that. Why pretend that meditation does anything beyond what it does? Why make it weigh more than it does in life? Belief is a hell of a mixed blessing. Look at the postss of cosmon and occasionally Kieth, I find them interesting, the reason is that they both will do meditation while typing and speak from a perspective of sort of half in this world and half in well, meditation? Now lets say maharaji gets his way and we all do meditation and speak that way. Very inside oriented. Is this a good thing? Everyone with a foot out the door? This is the heaven we have been evolving to? I like that kieth will even TRY to accomplish that. Sort of shows in its results what it would be like. Being at the bar, what state of mind do you want your buds to be in? Constantly trippy? Or very much just regular drunk types looking to laugh? (and then throw up). Look i like to feel my breath, it is a personal curse of mine, but maharaji is just not the leader that we all thought we had here. Just not the guy that could pull off an honest lifelong god role. What is the point in pretending about things? Its all illusion anyway? Life has no integrity so what the hell? The other religions are nuts so whats the dif? Or, like that cereal commercial, we just like it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 20:57:50 (EDT)
From: Laura Email: None To: CD Subject: Glad to observe Message: The mahatmas did not do a service. Wake up! They are/were as ignorant and in the dark as anyone else. The mahatmas stayed within their own culture and propagated their own false beliefs. Not knowledge, not experience, just beliefs. They were told, when they went to Satsang, that Knowledge is God and GMJ is God. So when they received Knowledge they already Believed God = GMJ. GMJ teaches techniques. GMJ is flesh and blood. At one time Mahatmas might have been searchers of truth, but they got lost in the maya of GMJ. Maturity and evolution demand that we grow outside of our small, comfortable belief systems. You write of a common positive themes. Because something is common does that make it good? Is wasting your life instead of enjoying it positive? Are you basing your life on a theme? On what someone tells you is a theme? God, you make me mad! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 22:23:58 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Laura Subject: Glad to observe Message: >Because something is common does that make it good? No I do happen to know that there is a common thread of good deep inside all people. >Is wasting your life instead of enjoying it positive? No I am into enjoying life and learning. >Are you basing your life on a theme? I am not that organized. >God, you make me mad! I won't bug you this week. I will be smoozing with the Microsoft cult people in Denver. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 22:57:52 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: CD Subject: Monsters Message: 'I do happen to know that there is a common thread of good deep inside all people.'-CD Do you believe in monsters, Chris? Do you think Jeffrey Dahmer had a common thread of good deep inside? How about the guy who murdered prostitutes and collected their eyeballs? What about the people responsible for molested or murdered children? I like to be as positive as possible, but can we always deny the harder truths of this world? Should we always change the channel? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 21:30:30 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: Hey, CD Message: Hey CD, Speaking of divisions, why have you never commented on the split in Maharaji's own family? Or how about any other fork in the multi-branched tree of fake spiritual leaders known as the Rhadmo... whatevers? Talk about strife and conflict, or what? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 00:53:40 (EDT)
From: David Roupell Email: wellcom@mullum.com.au To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: More BS from enjoyinglife Message: Oh gosh, I feel so ashamed. I fear John Macgregor may have been referring to people like me when he said he didn't like the 'sweetness' of some stuff on 'enjoyinglife' website. My shame is causing me great confusion because I only say anything to win the approval of others. All I said was that I thought Maharaji showed moments of sweetness and tenderness in his Brisbane address. I'll re-phrase it for the joyfully challenged ...'Maharaji spoke with clarity and aplomb, his correctness was gratifying, his observations stimulating, his sincerity encouraging. It was beneficial to my stoic advancement to be there.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 01:07:03 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: David Roupell Subject: More BS from enjoyinglife Message: My dear David, You seem to be somewhat confused....Mr. Macgregor is on YOUR side. It is I, the Pharisee, who feels pre-diabetic when reading the enjoying.life site. You may all be as sugary as you want, I won't be reading it. No dissent, no questioning, no accurate history is allowed. It is a dishonest site, and I want nothing to do with it. However, Mr. Macgregor made an incorrect statement regarding the Gospel of Thomas, and, since one can't correct mis-statements on that site, I decided to do it here. I just want to correct the record: Macgregor is on your side; your sarcasm should be pointed towards me, not him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 11:52:34 (EDT)
From: Joy Email: None To: David Roupell Subject: More BS from enjoyinglife Message: David states this in one of his paragraphs: I'll re-phrase it for the joyfully challenged ... Also, Dr. Truth below thinks all the premies here on the site are 'unhappy' and 'in their minds'. I just have one question: WHY do all these premies think they have the exclusive corner on experiencing joy, happiness and ecstasy? BM has obviously done a very good job in convincing them that he (and K) is the sole source of happiness and transcendence in the world. NOT TRUE!!! I have had just as good a time laughing at some of the brilliant posts on this site as I ever had kissing BM's feet and jumping up and down as he danced. Not to mention any one of about a hundred other things in my life which create joy and peace. I get really upset and insulted when referred to as 'joyfully challenged'. And as for being in our minds, well, I can't think of a better place to think from, minds and brains were given to us for a reason, along with hearts. To suspend your mind totally is to become a brainwashed cult member. It IS possible to experience joy with mind fully engaged and functional, one does not have to surrender it to Maharaji. -- Joy (no pun intended!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 14:15:32 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Joy Subject: More BS from enjoyinglife Message: You're right Joy, in fact, I enjoy my life much more and have much more happiness in my life since leaving the Guru and his minions. And it's not that idiot-glee, laughing-hysterically-at-nothing, thinking-Sweetie-Pie's-pitiful-attempts-at-humour-are-funny kinda joy. But you must remember: We Just Don't Get It and we never have. If we did we would be grinning at the video-taped lotus feet of THE master of meditation. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 14:20:55 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Joy Subject: Amusing Message: Joy, I agree that it is absurd for premies think that they have the happiness market cornered. I find it very amusing. Look at all of the premies who have left Maharaji because they are unhappy. Look at all of the joyful humans who have never heard of Maharaji. There are plenty of premies who have hostility and anger inside who are still practising. (I say this because I read lots of 'nasty' or 'negative' posts and comments on this site from premies. Just look at the comment Jack made to me last night when I said 'hi' to him. Sheesh!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 08:31:05 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: David Roupell Subject: More BS from enjoyinglife Message: Dave: If you really READ the posts above, you'd realize that Mickey is the author of the statements you disdain. Hmmmm... I wonder if someone is 'mentally challenged' here, as in NO MENTAL CAPACITY to discern the originator of a thought... ENGAGE your mind before coming on this forum Dave or your points will be seen as the meaningless tripe that they are right now. You say M speaks with clarity; how so? You say M is correct; ok, are seeds dead? You say he is sincere; PROVE IT by providing examples of his sincerity. You say his observations are stimulating; in a meth-amphetamine sort of way or what? How has he put his 'sweetness and tenderness' into REAL ACTION? - In case YOU haven't noticed, Dave, sweeping generalizations concerning the 'wonder that is M' don't cut it here. Be specific, I dare you! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 11:19:15 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Dave Subject: I'm waiting, Dave Message: Dave: Care to answer the questions that I posed in my post above? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 07:08:05 (EDT)
From: Gave a lotta $ Email: None To: David Roupell Subject: More BS from enjoyinglife Message: Mr Roupell, You are the 25 year long expert on HIM and everything about HIM down under. Get in the car, drive down the road from Mullum to Byron, knock on John McG's door and ask him to 'give you some satsang' about these matters of sweetness and light. Now John IS a 25 year veteran. 1972 Charanand, Sydney, as I recall. That = 26 years this month. He's also one hell of a nice guy who in or out of the cult, I respect. Don't drag him into your mind games. I was down under from '72 and never heard of you. This is what irritates me about sanctimonius cult members - they always have to AMPLIFY to feel barely good about what they're saying. Read JW's ashram stories - that's what it was REALLY like. You weren't in deeply enough to know how hard it was to get out. Remember you freeloaded off all the premies who GAVE. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 11:32:45 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Gave a lotta $ Subject: OUTSTANDING! Message: GAL$: THANK YOU! WHOEVER YOU ARE! That is telling it like it is. I don't believe this guy was even a premie at the time (I REALLY DON'T!) I think he is a LIAR of the first order. I know 'when' I received K and will gladly defer to the experience of those that came before me (PARTICULARLY ashram premies!). Thanks for saying it SO clearly.... :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 13:53:59 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: My response to Clare Message: Clare wrote to the site: I have recently recieved knowledge after considering it for over seven years. It was the best decision I have ever made. I am saddened by this site but also appreciate freedom of speech. I have a small coment, however. If knowledge is 'nothing' in their experience, why do the authors' bother to create this site in the first place? Why not just get on with life! I feel terrible sorry for you all. I responded: Clare - You haven't had any experience that the people who use this site haven't already had themselves. Your lack of understanding of their objections is based on the experiences that they HAVE had that you haven't. The site is not about Knowledge and whether or not it's beneficial to a person. That's a subjective judgement to be made by the individual. My own personal belief is that it benefitted me a lot. This site is about Prem Pal Rawat and his claim that he alone is qualified among all people in creation to decide who has this experience. You didn't just decide to receive Knowledge and then go do it. You were allowed to receive it. Period. Now you have Knowledge. Now you are benefitting by being aware of your own self. Now what are you going to do with your life, and with that awareness? The price of this 'gift' is that you first had to make a commitment to not share what you learned. You have been judged fit to receive what was owned by another. You have been judged unfit to make any decisions whatsoever regarding whether your children, family, loved ones, will share in that benefit. They aren't going to make the decision, because you have gone along with the requrirement that it is not going to be your decision but Maharaji's that will ultimately decide how many years they will be allowed to 'consider' it. So have you gone along with that, Clare? Can you even talk about your experiences, or do you feel compelled to refer people to those far more 'qualified' than you to discuss it? Like the person hosting the video event? Or Maharaji? What qualifies them, other than your absolving yourself of responsiblity to the extent that it's theirs by default? Do you have a voice in choosing the videos, or are you someone who just goes along with the program in life? Will you pick and choose your words carefully, or speak from the heart in life? What would Maharaji want you to do? Do you care? Can you tell him to piss off, that you're an adult who can make her own decisions, or will you defer to his superior understanding of your own life force? Because there are many who preceeded you along the Maharaji Trail. They devoted years of their lives to living under his roof, giving all of their money, love, and tireless service to him. They were booted out when his superior understanding led him to flip-flop as to whether he wanted the responsibility that accompanies the demands of devotion to him that he had placed upon them. They took him to heart, and he just took them. They're a bit miffed about that, Clare. The went along with his program. He went to the bank. They went out into the street, and carried along all the bills incurred by supporting his 'mission'. While you are now free to get on with your life, don't you think that those people have a right to expect an explaination from him? That they be compensated by the understanding that he is no longer promoting himself as God's special conduit in this world? Do you perceive him as being that? Where did you get that idea? His big brother disagrees, and has set up his own alternate personality cult. He has his devotees line up and kiss his feet, just like Maharaji does. He claims to be the sole valid source of your life's experience in this world, just like Maharaji does. Where did he get that idea? And where did Maharaji get the idea that he was anything more than someone willing to capitalize on human hunger to know their own soul? Tough questions. Ask Maharaji for the evasive answers. Take the time to invest the years required to get him to admit to mortality. Or read about it on Ex-Premie.Org from those who already put in time that you and he are so eager to see fall into the far distant past. After all, it's only someone ELSE's life that was wasted here. Not yours. Not his. Good luck. Brian webmaster@ex-premie.org Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 21:12:11 (EDT)
From: jrt Email: None To: Brian Subject: My response to Clare Message: Your lack of understanding of their objections is based on the experiences that they HAVE had that you haven't. Don't confuse 'doubt' with 'experience'. Brian, the paranoia inherent in your questions to Clare demonstrate someone who clearly never understood what M's all about. But you are reading the right material. Stay tuned to enjoyinglife.org, and you just may get some answers. (That is if there are still some things you haven't figured out.) J Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 21:28:55 (EDT)
From: Laura Email: None To: jrt Subject: Your response to Brian Message: Dear jrt: I thought Brian wrote an intelligent and sincere letter to Clare. So jrt, if you have no doubt, then you are either 1) not being honest, 2) not using your brain or 3) really deep into the brainwashed period of your life and I hope these words go deep inside of you to the place which is Right Now experiencing doubt. And if your own experience is so wonderful, then why even bother with this site? And please understand, that to understand Guru Maharaj Ji is not the same as to experience Knowledge. Guru Maharaj Ji is not Knowledge. GMJ and Knowledge are distinctly separate from each other. Guru Maharaj Ji shows techniques, ta da, that's it. And no answers to anything real, will ever be available on any web site, anywhere. Real answers to real questions. They come from one source only. Interested? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 21:34:30 (EDT)
From: Laura Email: None To: jrt Subject: Your response to Brian-Part 2 Message: Dear jrt: In case you are reading my first post to you right now, I am sorry but I have to get off-line. I can possible speak with you again tomorrow or Tuesday in case you are interested in discussing real answers to real questions. Sincerely, Laura Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 21:57:11 (EDT)
From: jrt Email: None To: Laura Subject: Your response to Brian-Part 2 Message: Laura, how pompous of you to imply that another person's questions, and answers that are based upon their own journeys are not real. No... I don't think I want to talk to you. J Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 00:10:24 (EDT)
From: Laura Email: None To: jrt Subject: Wake up call Message: Pompous? You idiot - I've already been on your go nowhere journey. I'm trying to wake you up and you're sleepy. And I'm not talking to your mind, i'm talking to the same part of you that wanted knowledge in the first place. So don't go back to sleep. I probably think your life is worth more than you do. How dare I say that? Because you idiot, you're giving your life away to a fake. Maharaj Ji is not real. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 00:22:02 (EDT)
From: jrt Email: None To: Laura Subject: Wake up call Message: You idiot - I've already been on your go nowhere journey. I'm trying to wake you up and you're sleepy. And I'm not talking to your mind, i'm talking to the same part of you that wanted knowledge in the first place. So don't go back to sleep. Thanks for the offer Laura but I'm doing just fine without your well-intentioned help. Besides, you don't sound that awake to me.... Why is it that the converted always feel compelled to convince others of their calling? I'm sure one could find an explanation in some cult-exposé rag, or website... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 13:35:56 (EDT)
From: Laura Email: None To: jrt & Gerry Subject: Wake up call Message: I am not on this site because I feel compelled to convince anyone of anything. I used to try and convince others, and myself, that Knowledge was IT. This site encourages me to think - and you like this site too, otherwise why are you here? And you're right, I'm just waking up. Waking up from a long sleep with a fake guru. Why believe in GMJ? What do you believe about him anyway? Do you believe he's God? I asked for knowledge because I wanted proof, experience, the real thing. So now you have the experience and you talk about it and believe in GMJ. jrt, how great is your experience? Is it an experience of GOD? My own experience was/is nice, but it is not the GOD I was led to believe it was, or the experience I was searching for. (I am trying to speak in a less satsangtypeofhypnoticway, how am I doing?) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 22:28:30 (EDT)
From: jrt Email: None To: Laura Subject: Wake up call Message: Yeah, Maharaji showed me God. It's been more beautiful than any imagination I ever had... because it's real. Jack Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 21:49:21 (EDT)
From: jrt Email: None To: Laura Subject: Your response to Brian Message: Dear jrt: I thought Brian wrote an intelligent and sincere letter to Clare. Intellegent??? No... rather, rooted in partisan paranoia. As for sincere, I'm sure he is. So jrt, if you have no doubt, then you are either 1) not being honest, 2) not using your brain or 3)really deep into the brainwashed period of your life... Or 4) understanding of the role Knowledge and Maharaji have for someone sincerely wanting to know the essence of their life. ...and I hope these words go deep inside of you to the place which is Right Now experiencing doubt. Are you trying to hynotize me Laura??? I'm getting sleepy.... J Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 22:09:28 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: jrt Subject: Talk with me, jrt Message: Jrt, Paranoia's a state of mind where one fantasizes persecution from imaginary enemies. I don't see Brian talking about his 'enemies out there', avoiding the press or refusing to publicly discuss his history with former followers. Maharaji, on the other hand, has done all of that. I don't see Brian muzzling his followers so that all they can do is smile like idiots and turn on the vcr whenever new people have questions. Maharaji does that. I don't see Brian fighting his own brothers for the right to be the real 'guru' and then avoiding all open discussion of this farce. Guess who does just that though? The new premie site is an interesting experiment the premies are undertaking, apparently with Maharaji's tacit approval. But you know as well as I do that the moment a single person there says something a little politically incorrect -- like mentioning any of Maharaji's real past there and not the bullshit sanitized version they keep repeating over and over -- its days will be done. What do you calla person who controls public opinion of himself so fanatically? Paranoid? Yeah, that's what I thought. I also don't remember Brian ordering all the old publications with his 'I'm the Lord here to save you' pronouncements destroyed. Maharaji did and that, too, just reeks of paranoia, doesn't it? No, I think you've scratched the wrong word there, jrt. Better try again. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 22:29:20 (EDT)
From: jrt Email: None To: Jim Subject: Talk with me, jrt Message: You have been judged unfit to make any decisions whatsoever regarding whether your children, family, loved ones, will share in that benefit. Over-emphasized and unfounded fear... in this case a fear of losing control. Sounds like paranoia to me Jim. Of course Brian's completely off base here. The natural evolution of a person's thirst to know themself will never be controlled by anyone but themself. Or don't you trust in evolution??? J Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 22:43:07 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: jrt Subject: Sorry no, Jack Message: Over-emphasized and unfounded fear... in this case a fear of losing control. Sounds like paranoia to me Jim. Of course Brian's completely off base here. The natural evolution of a person's thirst to know themself will never be controlled by anyone but themself. Or don't you trust in evolution??? Jack, Let's cut out the cheap psychology, 'kay? Brian's not expressing fear so much as describing the stark reality of the Maharaji cult. Say you think k is the end all and be all. Can you decide who gets it? Can you give it to your friends? Can you give it to your kids? Of course not. That's his point and nothing else. It's a true point. How can you argue with it? As for your 'natural thirst blah blah blah...' Christ, when did you start talking like that? Do you have any idea what you've turned into? You sound like some Southern Baptist or something. Anyway, you're still evading his point. Thirst, schmirst, a person gets k when M says then can. That's it. That was the point he was making. By the way, when are we going to get your wonderful 'lives' entry and 'expression'? I just can't wait to hear one more person recite this silly Hallmark shit. What are you waiting for? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 22:54:08 (EDT)
From: jrt Email: None To: Jim Subject: Sorry no, Jack Message: Is this all you've got to do on a Friday night Jim? My excuse is I'm working late. Brian's trying to instill paranoia in Clare about not having control over 'her own knowledge'. A verbal agreement is made upon receiving knowledge to leave that part to Maharaji, and now you're suggesting a person should go back on that agreement... what can you expect from a lawyer! Say, what do you thirst for... besides head food? Jack Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 23:06:58 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: jrt Subject: Jack Message: Jack, Just saying 'Howdy'. Got back from feeding the horses, kicked the dirt off my boots and realized you were on line. VP AKA the malboro man Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 23:15:28 (EDT)
From: jrt Email: None To: VP Subject: Jack Message: Hi Veep. Thought I'd drop in and say 'howdy'. Was it good for your horse? Jack Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 23:19:42 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: jrt Subject: you are just jealous-nt Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 23:33:56 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: jrt Subject: Sorry no, Jack Message: Is this all you've got to do on a Friday night Jim? My excuse is I'm working late. I'm back from my new office -- I finally joined a firm and got my office out of my apartment -- and thought I'd check up on things here. I don't know... habit? Brian's trying to instill paranoia in Clare about not having control over 'her own knowledge'. A verbal agreement is made upon receiving knowledge to leave that part to Maharaji, and now you're suggesting a person should go back on that agreement... what can you expect from a lawyer! Jack, this is really muddled. Please, try not to muddy the waters if you can. Fact -- Maharaji demands that premies don't reveal the stupid techniques to anyone for any reason, right? That's it. Toto finito. Do the premies agree to this? Sure, sure they do. But that doesn't change the simple fact that he controls it and not them. Now I'm not suggesting that anyone go back on anything. Why? Because I think the techniques are a joke. Besides, I've been sending all my referral business over to Bal Bhagwan Ji. But Brian's point is accurate and fair. You just don't like the implications. You're not honest enough, Jack. Sometimes there are aspects of our own situations that suck. Premies are taught to just bullshit around life however which way they can. Remember the discussion we had about Maharaji's faults? Remember how you were unable to find a single thing negative to say about the guy? You think that's honest? Yeah, you might think that. But it's jsut part of the premie whitewash. Anyway, where IS your lovely entry over on the FoolingYourself site? Oh yeah, besides head food I enjoy cheese,nuts and a little hard liquor. Say, what do you thirst for... besides head food? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 00:02:19 (EDT)
From: jrt Email: None To: Jim Subject: Don't be sorry... Message: Congratulations on your job Jim... it's about time (just kidding). Jack, this is really muddled. Please, try not to muddy the waters if you can. It's not muddled at all Jim... stop throwing up smoke screens. You get no argument from me at all... the deal is he's the only one revealing Knowledge. There's a real good reason for it too, i.e., nobody else does as good a job of it as him, at least that I've seen. Besides, if a contract is agreed to, why the hell would you complain about the terms after it's signed? That's what people do who didn't exercise due diligence. I hate doing business with those types of people... the word is whiner (weiner?). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 00:17:18 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: jrt Subject: Then you're wrong Message: the deal is he's the only one revealing Knowledge. This being true (forget about all the other Indian fakirs, in and out of the pudgy one's family), Brian's point is correct and you can't fault him for making it. M DOES control who his premies give the experience to (No one!). If you were alone on a desert island with some girl who you loved more than anyone else on that desert island, would you give her the techniques? How about after a few years? What if she was dying? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 00:31:46 (EDT)
From: jrt Email: None To: Jim Subject: ...am not Message: Brian's point is correct and you can't fault him for making it. M DOES control who his premies give the experience to (No one!). Obviously M doesn't control his premies about giving knowledge... case in point is this website. It's not a question of control (...a word cloaked in paranoia) but in trust. Besides, how much has anybody gotten from reading the techniques on THIS site? I predict almost zilch. Which brings us back to why he entrusts premies not to reveal the techniques and let him do it right. If you were alone on a desert island with some girl who you loved more than anyone else on that desert island, would you give her the techniques? How about after a few years? What if she was dying? Far too hypothetical for me to comment. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 01:01:17 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: jrt Subject: The deal is? Message: the deal is he's the only one revealing Knowledge. There's a real good reason for it too, i.e., nobody else does as good a job of it as him, at least that I've seen. This is a pretty stoopid statement, I gotta tell ya. This is your rationalization for respecting Maharaji's sales territory? That you, who aren't qualified to reveal these great techniques, are emminently qualified to evaluate the performance of those who claim to be qualified to reveal them??? That someone you judge as doing a 'good job', is also the one who deems you to be too much of an idiot to make any kind of responsible decision on these all-too-important matters?? That you can compare his performance with the performance of others also revealing these techniques?? Who would that be?? What is the main failing that the other(s) exhibit that Maharaji skips flawlessly past? At least that you've seen, I mean? Please find it in your heart to expound on these points. I'll put up a page on the site. Right next to The Kid page. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 00:05:27 (EDT)
From: jrt Email: None To: Jim Subject: Don't be sorry... pt 2 Message: Sometimes there are aspects of our own situations that suck. Premies are taught to just bullshit around life however which way they can. Nobody taught me to 'bullshit around life' Jim. I personnally hate bullshit, and I take my career seriously. I guess I must have missed that lesson... Jim, you label someone as dishonest far too easily for it to be true. I believe in Maharaji because what he showed me is so believable. I don't give a shit whether he drinks cognac or Heiniken, drives a Mercedes or a Volvo, or lives in a castle. And I don't have anything to say about things that are just hearsay. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 00:13:24 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: jrt Subject: ambiguity Message: And I don't have anything to say about things that are just hearsay. Are you saying you don't care about x because you only know of it through hearsay or, rather, that you don't care about x (that you've heard of through hearsay) whether or not you could verify the claim? In other words, if I told you Maharaji was blah, blah, blah (he IS, by the way, amazingly blah, blah, blah) would you say, 'sorry, not interested. You're just saying that.' Or would you say, 'sorry, not interested UNLESS you could prove it with something more than your say so?' Big difference. Which is it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 00:38:59 (EDT)
From: jrt Email: None To: Jim Subject: ambiguity Message: I might say prove it... and I might not give a shit. To date you've given me hearsay, and head-food arguments laced with courtroom styled theatrics. Oh yeah, then there was Mishler... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 00:50:36 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: jrt Subject: You're impossible Message: No talking to you, Jack. Not about this stuff anyway. Later. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 02:18:10 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: You're impossible Message: Jack, What do you get out of knowledge? You're a sharp card, no doubt. I like the fact that you recognized Laura's hypnotic wording. I'm not sure she did... I wonder where she got it from? Why are you fucking around with a loser like the BM? You could be spending your time much more profitably, no doubt. Shit, man you've got a lot on the ball, and you're banking on a con artist. That is, unless he's your model on how to con people for money, power and ego stroking. Most people get into the spiritual trip to fill a gap in their lives. What's your excuse? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 13:17:22 (EDT)
From: Laura Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Hypnotic wording? Message: When you said it, it sounded funny, when jrt said it I didn't listen. Is it hypnotic wording? This is the way I speak most of the time. I wonder if it started with sing-song satsang way back when or if I've always spoken like this. I hope i'm not full of it. Ugh! I talk to the emotional side of a person. I think I'd better look at this some more. Thank you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 23:21:09 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: A virtual miracle Message: To be always updated The possibility to know what is happening with Maharaji´s work around the world is what I like the most from this website. I can be updated on a daily basis in a very simple and comfortable way. Thanks for being there. I couldn't begin to list what I like best about THIS website. But simply being able to laugh and have a good time with the cardboard personalities like those we once were, presented courtesy of THAT website, is right up there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 09:33:00 (EDT)
From: Mc Email: e_mc_42@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: A virtual miracle Message: ...cardboard personalities like those we once were... well put, I couldn't agree more and in fact, guilty as charged but at least now I can laugh at loud also. (THIS website is a ture joy! Thank you all for being here) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |