Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 26 | |
From: Oct 8, 1998 |
To: Oct 23, 1998 |
Page: 2 Of: 5 |
Date: Sat, Oct 17, 1998 at 23:06:05 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: a suggestion Message: Just a thought. Maybe it would be illustrative of something or other if people here wrote submissions to the Enjoyingastupidlywhitewashedversionofreality site, sent them in and copied them here as well. I think it will be interesting to see what does get posted, what doesn't and all that. I posted one such letter below ('Truth and Censorship'). Actually, I feel pretty proud of my restraint in that one. I was going to say something about Jonathan being an astrologer and thus professionally disinterested in the truth but then I realized that some people say that about lawyers. So I didn't. But really, let's face it, astrology in the late twentieth century has no excuses. It IS just an opportunity to fleece people. Of course it is. Anyway, that's besides the point. Just offering a suggestion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 01:37:14 (EDT)
From: steven Email: None To: Jim Subject: a suggestion Message: this gift is to simple for you.WALK Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 01:49:18 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: steven Subject: a suggestion Message: this gift is to simple for you.WALK Sorry, fella. I paid for my ticket and I think I'll stick around for a while. I'm thinking the show's going to get a little more interesting. So who are you anyway? Where'd you go to school? Do you like to play tennis? Joined any cults recently? I'm all into meeting people. Tell me, what's YOUR Expression? Ate you Steven Ayre by chance? The guy who wrote this: Expressions of gratitude Thank you so much for your initiative - as well as professionalism - in setting up this wonderful website. It is as attractive as it is functional. And simple. Recently in Chicago, we began a process of getting interested people in the community into synch with what is going on in our area. It has proven quite valuable. The feedback shows how important it is not to assume that everybody knows all of what's going on. We need to make the effort to communicate with eachother - with clarity, simplicty, and because of the feeling. Your website is a marvellous opportunity to do all of the above on a world-wide scale. We could start up a new section and call it 'The Big Synch.' (pun). It's nice to hear what's going on, so thank you sincerely for your work, and for the love in you that makes it go. If so, Steven, you seem like a nice enough guy. So what's wrong with a little feedback, huh? That way we can all be in synch with one another. No reason anyone should feel left out, eh? Tell me, Steven, how long you been a premie? Do you even know how this trip started? Come on, man, it's time to communicate clearly on this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 11:53:31 (EDT)
From: steven Email: None To: Jim Subject: a suggestion Message: relax everything has changed.forget about the premies.let the old times go.turn of your computor OFF some time and go to a local VIDEO EVENT .just walk in sit down and feel your best friend talk to you.Not your thoughts,who you seem to be a total slave to.Its just you and Him.Not you and every body else.Or is it that you can not find you any more?Its so simple to practice yet you have to be quiet for a while. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 12:27:44 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: steven Subject: a suggestion Message: Ooooooooo, some more really heavy, deep advice. You too can become a brain dead premie once again. Then you get to express yourself with the same premie clarity and expert grasp of the English language. Improve your writing and communication skills--meditate on Goober's ''Knowledge''! PS steven werecan i find one of thesevideo event in mytowm. i want to be just me and Him, which Him should be capitalized sinces hes god after all right. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 12:33:05 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: All Subject: PS Message: Once again I find myself leaning towards the ''organic brain damage'' theory as to why most premies express themselves so poorly in form and content. There are some studies which show psychological harm from various forms of meditation, and I'm seriously wondering if there is a physical component also. Time for some research. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 17:20:09 (EDT)
From: steven Email: None To: Gerry Subject: a suggestion Message: sorry kid.you'll have to find out for yourself.the only true ex.premie is one thats not breathing.If you went to him once your in it for life little boy.you've been tricked by the greatest thief.he stole your simplicity.fight for it get it back.he stole your understanding.fight for it get it back.sorry no medals for the years here little boy.i have seen many dead soldiers in my life.they were brain dead.I do not feel the gift has been given to you anyway.i feel you were scared away in the beginning and never lived it down.thats why you blame eveyone else for your problems. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 17:37:21 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: steven Subject: a suggestion Message: Steven, Can we talk? Good. Listen, right now I'm about a third of the way through a challenging but exciting book by Daniel Dennett called Consciousness Explained. Do you ever read this kind of stuff? It's pretty interesting for sure. You'd be amazed at how far science has come in just the last wenty years in unravelling the mystery of consciousness. What I wonder is whether you think that all that research is simply beside the point. Do you? I mean I know it isn't necessarily SIMPLE. But that doesn't mean it isn't true, does it? Like, look at this computer technology we've got. I wouldn't call it simple either, but it works, wouldn't you say? And how ABOUT all that DNA microbiology stuff. I think that's pretty complex too. Still, we're a lot further ahead knowing it's there and understanding it a bit than we were before, wouldn't you agree? The ancient Hindus didn't have the advantage of science did they. Maharaji teaches some mind control techniques that are based on that culture's world view. Do you think we've grown in our knowledge base at all since then? Like, for example, you might have noticed how Maharaji once gave this sage advice: Q: Maharaj Ji, does it make a difference if a person eats meat or not ? Does it affect their Meditation. Guru Maharaj Ji: I know one thing - 'what you eat, so you become'. I say from experience. I'll tell you one thing, since it's not meant for human beings to eat meat and there's a very logical explanation - may be you even know it. You know, it's like people or the beings that are supposed to eat meat, like cats, lions or animals like that, they always lick water. They don't, they don't suck water. They always lick it. They take their tongue out like that. You have seen how a cat drinks water and how a dog drinks it. But beings that suck water don't eat meat. And that's the way it's supposed to be. And man sucks water - does not lick water, since he is not supposed to eat meat. And God has provided him and made him the king of all nature - not to kill other beings, but to... He has given all the fruits in the world, anything he wants, a big head up here ….. so he has just to utilize everything. And try to understand the beauty and to grasp the beauty of the fruits God has given us. Because I'll tell you, it's really healthy too. Body can just really accept it. And that's the way it is. Yes ? Q: Why wouldn't you say that when you pick a plant killing the plant too ? I mean............ Guru Maharaj Ji: Well, because that's, that's the thing; that little killing is meant to be for you. And that's O.K. Q: A plant still has consciousness. Guru Maharaj Ji: A plant has consciousness, but where is the consciousness? Q: I don't know. Guru Maharaj Ji: See, this is the thing. Where is the consciousness? Someone: The root. Guru Maharaj Ji: The root is the consciousness, but where does the consciousness actually lie ? Because root, if you take root itself, it's in a seed. You see, there is a little explanation to that. If you are eating meat, you are eating out of a being, right ? Like supposedly, some people eat cow, right? Cow comes from life, a mother. Right ? And that also come from a life, and it's a life to a life to a life circle. But a plant does not come from a life. It comes from dead, from a seed which is dead. It doesn't need any nutrition. It's a dead seed. When you plant it, and that's when it becomes (alive), for it to grow, and to give you fruits. Q: What if you eat an animal that comes from a seed? I mean, an animal......... Guru Maharaj Ji: well, I wouldn't object to......... Q: You could call an egg a seed. A chicken comes from an egg; an egg is a seed. Isn't it? Is an egg alive? The one you buy in a store? Guru Maharaj Ji: No. The egg is killed already. Then... see, it's like, it's not like a seed. Still it isn't like a seed. Because seed is inert, dead. If you put an egg, it'll rot. Because it has a life, and it has a period of life. You see, everything has come from man's own conception. Because somebody… If I put a man into a cell, the day he is born from, he will never know whether a plant has a consciousness or not. It's man's own conception of it. And so far it all seems again into a conception, into a conception, multiplied by it. It all seems that these fruits are given to a human being to eat them. A man would not be able to live on meat alone. He'll have to still come to nature and ask for its fruits. But a man can live on fruits.' Obviously, Maharaji was naively parrotting the pre-scientific ignorance of the culture he came from. So tell me, how do you know he's any more knowledgeable about anything else? You get the drift. I'm asking you about your mind. Wht have you done with it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 18:40:22 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Consciousness Explained Message: So, you're reading Consciousness Explained. I hope you're having better luck understanding it than I did. I gave up on it about half way through. As interesting (and yes, exciting) as it was, Dennett's understanding of the english language is much more sophisticated than mine. I found myself, too often, struggling to unravel the way he would structure sentences, and it didn't help that his vocabulary is about twice the size of my own. I even carried around Webster's Pocket Dictionary to look up words I didn't understand while I was reading it. I've since been focusing my energies on finding books that I can more readily understand. I'm just finishing up on one called 'The Secret Language Of The Mind' by David Cohen. It's only about 200 pages long and it's got lots of pictures in it. I like that. It gives the beginner a broad introduction into how far science has come in it's studies of the human mind. Fascinating. Still a long way to go, though, but that's cool. Unraveling mysteries are as much fun as solving them. Hope you enjoy the book. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 01:43:16 (EDT)
From: steven Email: None To: Jim Subject: a suggestion Message: now for you jim. Are you the jim heller from canada?I know you and you know me.You went to Maharaji and asked him for this gift. You used to practice so much. What happenned? Did your little mind of hate and fear get the better of you. I guess so.Well I have to go now.Just remember you are trying to leave him.Its not the other way around. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 09:12:41 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: steven Subject: a suggestion Message: now for you jim. Are you the jim heller from canada? Steven. Do you really expect us to believe that of all the Jims that our Jim could possibly be, you guessed that he was the Jim Heller from Canada. I'll tell you what, if you can tell me which Jerry I am, I'll believe you, and if you can tell me which hamzen is the hamzen, I'll really be impressed. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 10:26:03 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Jerry Subject: a suggestion Message: 'and if you can tellme which hamzen is the hamzen, I'll really be impressed.' So would I, forty-six and still don't have a clue! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 11:29:51 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: hamzen Subject: a suggestion Message: Ham, I just started reading a book titled 'The Blind Watchmaker' (highly regarded and recommended on this forum), last night. I don't know how much you are into scientific explanations for things, but you might find a clue or two in this treatise on evolution. Maybe religion, spirituality and new age think has kept us in the dark for so long that the simplicity of who we really are, an evolved species with no puposeful design, got lost in the midst of it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 14:14:32 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Jerry Subject: a suggestion Message: Used to be well up on the popular end of scientific lit but zilch since 1990, bloody house music for you. (Photek on mushrooms, believe me, you'll see the light.:) :) :) ) Read 'The Blind Watchmaker' then. The basic premise I don't see anyone being able to walk away from, without lying to themselves. As I remember it, it was straightforward evolutionary theory.I did find his writing style and attitude a bit zealous, his style seemed like a fundamentalist preacher, which is a bit ironic considering his stance re religion. But then maybe not surprising considering this stance. For myself and I notice a lot of other disciplines too, Maturana and Varela's angle on evolutionary theory I find much more rewarding. They wrote by far the closest book to a bible for me, 'The Tree Of Knowledge - The Biological Roots of Human Understanding'. A more accessible take on their ideas, I'm assuming from reviews (I haven't read it myself), has been written by Fritjof Capra, think it's called 'The Web Of Life' Re religion, spirituality and new age stuff, couldn't agree more, it was the poor way, that slimeball especially, used all of that, that caused me to waste so much time de-constructing my experiences. Precious time that really could have been used for something much sexier. For someone whose so-called inner experiences are still crucial, the level of sloppiness/laziness in new-age circles I find an insult, but that is how they get away with latching dodgy theories onto anything that has meaning for individuals. In the process the topic area gets slashed and given very little support in the research arena, consequently no information. C'est la vie. The comment re knowing myself revolves around the following topic, 'in an insane world the only sane response is to go mad.'-R.D.Laing. Dealing with that one has been and still is pretty crucial. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 18:06:27 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: hamzen Subject: cheap shot? Message: Read 'The Blind Watchmaker' then. The basic premise I don't see anyone being able to walk away from, without lying to themselves. As I remember it, it was straightforward evolutionary theory.I did find his writing style and attitude a bit zealous, his style seemed like a fundamentalist preacher, which is a bit ironic considering his stance re religion. But then maybe not surprising considering this stance. Hamzen, I'm sorry but this bugs me a bit. Dawkins, like any good scientist, argues his points and invites criticism. How in the world can you equate him to a fundamentalist preacher who, as we know, does nothing of the sort? If he's a zealot, there must be something in the book you take issue with as not only ill-conceived but also unreasonably, irrationally protected. Well? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 21:19:25 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Jim Subject: cheap shot? Message: Jim, I meant the way he was saying it, as against what he was saying. I still feel the same way. He strikes me as someone who is distractingly stiff. This reaction has definitely been affected by seeing him fairly regularly on TV. Also that impression was amplified at the time, because of the realization that I was having to let go of some new-age hope the further I moved toward a more rational stance. I'm not a natural intellectual, especially where language, philosophy and logic are concerned. Style and implied body language make such a difference as to how easily I can get to grips with the logic of arguments. 'If he's a zealot, theremust be something in the book you take issue with as not only ill-conceived but also unreasonably, irrationally protected' I could be fooling myself Jim, but I don't think so. Remember way back in the day, around the time of Stella Blue and Unbroken Chain, 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance'. Key text for the times, or what. Tried to read it at least six times, could never get beyond about page thirty. Really disappointed. Exactly the same reaction as from Dawkins! My route back to rationality has constantly been driven by emotions/feelings. Bottom line that will never change for me, way too integral. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 21:40:40 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: hamzen Subject: cheap shot? Message: Hamzen, First, I'm glad you're not offended that I'm offended on Dawkins' behalf with your offensive comments. We need each other all the more so now that Maharaji's unleashed the dogs of war. After all, any sign of disagreement, even in a thoughtful, respectful fashion, must send thrill chills through the hearts of the Life Enjoyers (tm). After all, they get to hang out with each other three or four times a week and never have to say anything, let alone discuss it. So, thanks again for keeping this civil. 'Zen and the Art' was intentionally opaque. Don't forget the author's persona was all about repression. He fiddled with philosophy while his relationship with his son burned. Eventually his pre-shock therapy self burst through, it wasn't as bad as he'd feared and he could talk a bit more like a normal human being again. I've never seen Dawkins on tv but my girlfriend, Laurie, confirms that he is not the seasoned gesticulator of, say, a living Lard. He's an Oxford don. I guess that means something. That's what they tell me. But I can say this, his words are FAR from sterile or wooden. Really, Ham, you're being set up by the mushroom people on this one. Dawkins is no fair target for that complaint. Perhaps you're getting him confused with our own Anon. (Hey, Anon, just semi-kidding!) Something's a little clearer though. You say you coudln't get past page 30 in Pirsig's book and Dawkins brought on 'the exact same reaction.' May I do the calculation? Let's see.... 30 equals 30.... I'd say you never got too far in Dawkins' book either. Am I right? Well, Ham, I've got a solution for you. There's one short book by Dawkins that Katie turned me on to that I think you'll find easy enough and truly stimulating and enjoyable. It's River Out of Eden. It builds to some wonderfully cosmic speculation. You'll like that. I liked that. Eveyone likes that. Plus, you'll finish it. Guaranteed. On the other hand, I have to say that your test of zealotry and fundamentalism is pretty confusing. Are you saying that you found Pirsig a fundamentalist zealot too just because you couldn't get through his book? You can't mean that. Anyway, enough of that. Try River Out of Eden. I can't imagine you not really liking it. Honestly. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 20, 1998 at 07:50:12 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Jim Subject: cheap shot? Message: 'So, thanks again for keeping this civil.' No sweat Jim, we're both adults. (1) I see this site and your postings as about dialogue and democracy. (2) See this discussion as about missed communication not disagreement. That applies to my comments re Dawkins' poor communication style, as well as our non-understanding. I tend to edit a lot in my communication style which I can get away with in 'reality', loads of non-verbal. Finding it difficult to add this on the net without becoming verbose and spending hours on the keyboard. 'I've never seen Dawkins on tv but my girlfriend, Laurie, confirms that he is not the seasoned gesticulator of, say, a living Lard.' Personally I think slimebag is an AWFUL communicator who occasionally has a good gig. A person who always looked and sounded frozen from the neck down. (That squeeky voice, so un-grounded. My first serious doubts about him came re the squeeky voice. Everybody I've ever known who is having an experience that resonates for them, literally does resonate. The voice gets deeper, more authoritative, toward the genital area. Slimebag continuously squeels.) Dawkins looked and sounded stiff from the waist down only. 'Something's a little clearer though. You say you coudln't get past page 30 in Pirsig's book and Dawkins brought on 'the exact same reaction.' May I do the calculation? Let's see.... 30 equals 30.... I'd say you never got too far in Dawkins' book either. Am I right?' Completely wrong. Finished the book, read numerous articles by him, one this weekend, seen TV programmes by him.......Don't have a problem with what is after all basics, abc, bottom line. My point was that even from such a new-agey end of information my approach is exactly the same. Spin doctors, can't stand 'em, but do they know HOW to communicate. If only the green/alternative people would accept this. Will definitely add 'River out of Eden' to my list, will also add the Blind W..to my list as well. Read it when it originally came out which is a fair while back, although again I don't remember seeing any deviations from standard evolutionary theory, time,rewards etc etc. The zealousness, to me now, is completely understandable. I remember when I was first here, I found you similar in emotional approach to Dawkins, although I'd have to say a lot cooler and sexier. Then I see the responses of premies visiting, religious fundamentalists the lot, or what. Impossible to dialogue with. Voila, an understanding of Monsieur Jeem's angle. Dawkins has to deal with even more Christian Fundamentalist garbage....... Hope this clarifies things a bit. Any suggested texts for dealing with the problems of communicating in the 'virtual world'? Have you read anything by Maturana and Varela? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 20, 1998 at 10:36:36 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: hamzen Subject: cheap shot? Message: Any suggested texts for dealing with the problems of communicating in the 'virtual world'? No and I'm not particularly sensitive to those problems whatever they are, either. Have you read anything by Maturana and Varela? I looked them up yesterday on the net becuse you mentioned them. Found a page about autopoetism (sp?) and tried unsuccessfully to find a natural entry point. Then I recalled that someone else had referred to them on the page. Can't remember who. Doesn't matter I guess. But I'd seen the term auto... before. Frankly, without a better buildup I'd never go walking in that forest. It just looked pretty dense and uninviting. Not scary, just dense. So what's there for me besides social science systems-theory type jargon? (Sorry, it looked like it was just overgrown with that kind of stuff.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 20, 1998 at 20:09:24 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Tree Of Knowledge Message: Have you read anything by Maturana and Varela? I came across 'The Tree Of Knowledge' while browsing through a bookstore, (my favorite pastime these days). It looked interesting so I picked it up. I don't know when I'll have the chance to read it, though. I've got about 15 other books on my bookshelf that I haven't read yet. I've become quite compulsive in my interest in science, but that's the way I've always been. When I get interested in something, I'm crazy. I'll probably only read about 5 of the books and thumb through the rest. You can probably understand why it wouldn't be a good idea for me to start messing with Photek and mushrooms. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 21:40:50 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Dawkins Message: Hey Ham, I'm having a tough time with The Blind Watchmaker too. Being the towering intellect that I obviously am, it must be Dawkins fault. :-) (Now steven, don't you jump in here and blast me. I have feelings, too, you know.) Seriously, I do have a problem with his style, and the edition I have has tiny print. I'm going to give it another shot, though. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 21:58:51 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Dawkins Message: Gerry, I know. If your edition's the same recent one I've got that IS one motherfucking small print they've used. Listen, same thing I told Ham, why not put the book down for a bit and get River Out of Eden? Bigger print, less detail and, in a sense, a bigger picture. I'd hope that that book alone would firm you up for Dawkin's intermediate runs. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 22:34:35 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Dawkins Message: Hi Jim, Yes I noted the book recommendation to Ham and put it on my list. Right now I'm working through Revelations by Jacques Vallee. Chewy stuff--UFO related. That and about six others as well as three separate web related projects and still trying to get this house project off the ground and now Patty is bugging me to make her dinner. Ah such is the life of a ne're-do good. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 10:56:32 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: steven Subject: Your manners, young man! Message: now for you jim. Are you the jim heller from canada?I know you and you know me.You went to Maharaji and asked him for this gift. You used to practice so much. What happenned? Did your little mind of hate and fear get the better of you. I guess so.Well I have to go now.Just remember you are trying to leave him.Its not the other way around. Steven, It's pretty rude to tell me that you know who I am -- and that, in fact, I know you -- but fail to identify yourself. It's kind of on the level of a harrassing phone call, wouldn't you say? Come on, if I know who you are, identify yourself. Common decency, Steven. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 16:54:37 (EDT)
From: steven Email: None To: Jim Subject: Your manners, young man! Message: jimmy guru to the ants of hatred.what branch of the government due you work for now? Or is it the church now? you have your little group of haters wow.your so powerful.lets see hum maybe its those conservatives who hate everything that moves?Why should I identify myself to people who cannot even identify themselves.Put me down anywhich way you want.Soooooo what.You bug us.Well then tit for tat.Mr.cult watch what a jive.your so afraid of the truuuuth its like your a druggy in denial.And you parents just found out.talk to you later Mr.ex. premie organ Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 18:35:18 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: steven Subject: Your manners, young man! Message: Steven, From time to time ex's here have parodied premies. Sometimes, I'd have to say, they/we have been pretty good. But then someone like you comes along. Now who would have believed it? Your immaturity and dim lights are simply too great to leave any room for exaggeration. Really, Steven, you either are a complete idiot or you're impersonating one for who-knows-whatever reason. Keep up the good work. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 18:50:56 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: All Subject: Poster child for the guru Message: Can you believe this guy? Wow, what a fucking weirdo! First he says you went to him once your in it for life then he says I do not feel the gift has been given to you anyway Sorry Steve, you can't have it both ways. Hey, but maybe this means I'm off the hook now. Phew, what a relief! How about this gem .i feel you were scared away in the beginning and never lived it down.thats why you blame eveyone else for your problems. Oh Stevie poo, what ''problems'' am I blaming on GooberRaji? But yeah, you're right on one point, the fucking oddball premies and their goofy guru with his warped ideas and warmed over Hinduism did scare me off. In a way I AM still trying to live it down. It is embarrassing when any of my friends mention it. I don't really expect to communicate with this pathetic moron but it is fun to lob rotten tomatoes at him. :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 19:14:50 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: All Subject: Another Premie Liar Message: Get a load of this fucking liar revisionist, Norman Silver: My earlier scepticism of religious language and activity has continued to this day. But for me, Knowledge is a practical experience. No rituals, no set of beliefs, no prescriptive lifestyle! Just a simple enjoyment of life. Yeah, right Norm. You're a real peach. You've been a toe sucker since 1973. Ever sing Arti fool? Ever stand in line for hours to slobber on fat asses tootsies? Huh? Lying scumbag. These dickheads think they have some sort of lock on ''enjoying life.'' Boy, that burns me. (I kinda like the aggrevation, though.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 00:36:44 (EDT)
From: steven Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Another Premie Liar Message: you talk like a truck driver that has been stuck without a load in a gay truck stop for a month. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 00:59:57 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: steven Subject: Premies forever Message: you talk like a truck driver that has been stuck without a load in a gay truck stop for a month. Now steve, come on, what's so terrible about being a truck driver, or gay ? The ''stuck without a load for a month'' part I really resent though. Duh. Hey yer talkin to a brother premie here fer chrissake. Remember? Once a premie always a premie? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 13:27:17 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Hey, Stevie.... Message: Gerry: Now stevie is showing his REAL colors, eh? Stevie: You can't undo this error: YOU HOMOPHOBIC ASSHOLE! I'll bet even bet that your sweet LARD wouldn't have told that stupid joke, now would he? Hurry, get under your blankey, press on your eyeballs, stick your tongue up your nasal passage and make sure you continue to breathe and PRAY for M's forgiveness for your little 'MR.Mind' outburst. GOD, premies are STUPID! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 16:59:20 (EDT)
From: steven Email: None To: Mike Subject: Hey, Stevie.... Message: you have no happiness in you life.I can understand your jailer is within you.I am happy you are just a poor stupid wannabee of mr.guru of hatred byyyyyyyyyy Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 17:06:05 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: steven Subject: Jeez you are dumb! Message: Stevie: I can see that you really read the post. Who is the hater, Mr. Homophobe? You are a sick excuse for a human being. Go ahead, try to free yourself from YOUR LARD. Just see how easy it is to break free from YOUR CULT! Then we'll talk about who is 'jailed.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 01:27:17 (EDT)
From: Andrew B Email: None To: steven Subject: Another Premie Liar Message: Gerry says These dickheads think they have some sort of lock on ''enjoying life.'' Boy, that burns me. (I kinda like the aggrevation, though.) I guess that's make some kind of paranoia sense. This guy any many of these beautiful people post here for the smiley faces :-), he he he's, and giggles they give each other. I admit its satisfying to see one lose his cool and turn into a blathering idiot. he he Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 01:43:38 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Andrew B Subject: Yet another example Message: OK Andrew B. I give up. And I submit to your higher knowledge and wit. Love your communication skills as well. But... is this a sentence: This guy any many of these beautiful people post here for the smiley faces :-), he he he's, and giggles they give each other This guy any many? I know it rhymes and all, but what the fuck are you saying here? And let's not overlook this gem: I guess that's make some kind of paranoia sense. You must have taken two stupid pills tonight instead of one. Or did you ''practise'' for two hours today? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 02:02:54 (EDT)
From: steven Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Yet another example Message: yes AS a matter of fact I practiced for 1.5 hrs. sometimes 45minutes its a day by day commitment I screw up but I go back and try again.Yea i am a goody goody.Yea I am giving it a fair chance.But its a feelling.Something you can't write about.But you will probibly stamp these words and the feeling in the mud too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 09:37:10 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: steven Subject: Fair chance Message: Yea I am giving it a fair chance. Steven, when you say you're giving it a fair chance, what do you mean? Are you still hoping it will manifest for you, in time, with a little practice? The reason I'm asking is because I practiced Knowledge, on and off, for 18 years hoping it would manifest for me. It never did. What would you consider a 'fair chance', how many years, how many videos? I'm genuinely interested in a response to this question. I think there are a lot of premies who keep hoping, against hope, that, in time, sooner or later, Knowledge will become everything they hoped for, just as I did. How much is a fair chance? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 13:54:44 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: steven Subject: crap Message: Steve: You really are an arrogant little twit, aren't you? By making the statement that YOU are giving it a fair chance, you are actually implying that we have not. LOOK AT ME... I'M A GREAT MEDIATATOR, while these ex's are nothing! Your holier-than-thou attitude is sickening and, beyond that, a LIE. You aren't any holier than I am, Steve, you just THINK that you are. I think 10 years of dedicated, daily meditation is enough time to determine if what I was sold is a 'crock.' IT'S A CROCK and I already WALKED away from MahaCULTji and his devoted minions! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 12:58:17 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: JW Subject: Oh, JW...... Message: JW: Would you like to polish this guy off now, or save him for later? I'll give you the honors.... snicker ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 19:30:54 (EDT)
From: Sherlock Hammond-Holmes Email: rooms@baker.street To: Gerry Subject: A slight contradiction Message: Our esteemed fellow, steven does appear to contradict himself. On the one hand he says you're in it for life and then on the other hand he says that if you don't like it, WALK. With my incredible powers of deduction I do surmise that this fellow is merely parroting the words of that great master and illusionist of the Orient, the Maharajee Hashish Bogie. Ha! For it was HE that once said to a person that he couldn't give the knowledge back to Mahareeshi because if he did, he'd need four strong men. And this great master also told people to go WALK if they didn't like it. The conclusion reached by my assistant, Dr What's-On and myself is that the great Mahareeshi Hashish Bogie does not have a clue as to what he's on about. ANy person unfortunate enough to take the words of this charlaton seriously will be thrown into utter confusion for many years. The disciple of Hashishi Bogie, steven, is a good example of this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 20:00:25 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: All Subject: Feeling up Premie chicks Message: Ever notice how premies all seem to ''feel'' this, and ''feel'' that? Like feelings were the most important and truthful indicators of reality. Well guess what, Goober fans, they aren't. Try thinking once in while. Meanwhile dig this: It has been 21 years next week since I received Knowledge. I remember as soon as I felt an inner experience, being amazed that a feeling so satisfying was within me. I thought: 'So that's why I have been pursuing all these things in my life,I was trying to find this feeling !' That's why I am so grateful to Maharaji for revealing it to me - my very own inner home,that no one can ever take away from me. I remember when I was very young that I was always conscious of the fact that I was searching for some sort of truth, But I wanted the real thing. I remember asking God to show me who he really was in the form of a feeling. I knew that he was not in the church that I had been going to for 16 years. I knew I could feel it when I saw the sun rise from a mountain top, tingeing the fog-covered sea below red. I knew I could talk to something else within me. I was trying to reach it all the time. Being an extremely independent and stubborn person (ed. Ha ha ha!), I would not accept anyone's word for anything, I had to discover it myself. So when my school friends told me about Maharaji, who was14 at the time, I thought they were crazy. It would be another two years before they finally wore my resistance down enough and I went listen to Padarthanand talking about Knowledge. I was full of scepticism but as soon as I walked into the room and felt the serenity, I was gone! I knew I had found the feeling I had been looking for. I did not really understand what anybody was talking about, but itfelt great. I felt 'at home ' for the first time. Throughout the years of listening to and seeing Maharaji, I have only ever felt completely grateful . Now my 19 year old daughter also wants to receive Knowledge. So the feeling continues to grow and develop. Life is exciting and a real journey.Thank you, Maharaji, for your inspiration and tireless energy. I am just glad to know you are alive. Written by Broni Doran of Melbourne, Oz Hey, I just though of something. I feel this babe might be just the ticket for Mel Boring. They could sit around the ol campfire and feel up a storm. Too bad about her daughter, though. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 21:43:59 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: All Subject: Jonathan's Tale (tail?) Message: I can't believe the great ''fodder for the cannon'' these buttwipes at enjoyinglife.org are providing. Here's some comments on site co-founder Jonathon Cainer's ''Life with Knowledge.'' First he ''Got given a compass (got given? that alone sounds retarded--and this guy calls himself a writer), blah, blah blah. Then, I have had 40 amazing years on this planet so far, and I reckon each of these could make a full length, high-adventure novel. Boy, I can't wait to see his baby pictures. Maybe his first grade report card. Be still my heart!!!!! Now, check this out--ah shit, read it for yourselves. BTW, did you all know there was a UK AND a United Kingdom? With different flags?? See you can learn some at the enjoyingdecievingmyself.orgie site! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 22:12:37 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: All Subject: Finally, some truth Message: Methinks this character stepped on his dick without realizing it: Rob Hewitt London, UK Albert Einstein Albert Einstein defined insanity as: 'Repeating the same process over and over again, hoping for a different result.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 22:23:06 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Finally, some truth Message: I wonder what Albert Einstein would think about being quoted there. It's kind of ironic that one of the greatest, most creative thinkers of this century is quoted there, no? Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 23:42:25 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Finally, some truth Message: Albert Einstein defined insanity as: 'Repeating the same process over and over again, hoping for a different result.' This is a popular saying in AA. For the alcoholic, to continue drinking is insanity, but you continue to anyway, hoping for different results each time, but it's just the same shit every time. It gets worse, in fact. The same could be said for those premies (such as I was) who sit down to meditate, hoping that this time they'll have an experience that will make it clear what all the fuss is about. You never do though. I wonder what context Rob Hewitt was using the expression in. It seems an odd thing to say for a premie who I'm assuming is having the time of his life with Knowledge. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 23:55:31 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Finally, some truth Message: Jerry, Precisely my point, although I was fumbling to say it succinctly. Nicely put. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 17:38:30 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Finally, some truth Message: Repeating the same process over and over again, hoping for a different result.' Jeez! Isn't it like that with most things though? I guess we're all insane Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 16:52:36 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Jonathan's Tale (tail?) Message: Gerry: The one thing that impresses the heck out of me about these premies is how they ALL think their personal lives were 'just so amazing' and 'high-adventure,' as opposed to us mere mortals. What a colossal ego these folks possess. They ought to be PROUD of themselves for attaining such a lofty height above the rest of the world. They are SOOOOO advanced, don't ya know! 'We got it and you don't...nya, nya, na, nya, na.' - I agree with your sentiments exactly, I just can't wait for Jonathan's sequel, 'Bore me to tears, Part Deux' (or is it Part Duh). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 22:03:01 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Sherlock Hammond-Holmes Subject: SOmebody explain to me, please Message: Good point! That excerpt of GM's satsang made no sense to me whatsoever. What the hell was he trying to say? I got lost when he was talking about the difference between a seed and an egg. Actually it was very interesting reading the text to a satsang. I imagined GM's voice saying it and I rememebered how I would follow him for about half or three-quarters of his 'speech' and then I just couldn't follow him anymore. Can anyone explain to me what the hell that satsang about vegetarianism meant? Is there any point to it at all? Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 02:55:54 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: Helen Subject: SOmebody explain to me, please Message: 'Can anyone explain to me what the hell that satsang about vegetarianism meant?' Eeeeer .....no. This was typical satsang behaviour of just opening one's mouth and 'knowing'that the truth would come out. premies (including prempal believed that just by opening their mouths truth would come out. I think prempal still believes it, but does not believe that the premies 'have the grace' any more. It's a great pity as there was many real satsang givers, and it was (IMO) the best form of entertainment(to quite prem); his own ego got in the way....that's why premies can't really communicate now....very sad and a waste of life. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 10:08:20 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: jethro Subject: Just as I suspected! Message: Hey Jethro, I'm glad to know it wasn't just me who didn't get it (the point of GM's satsangs)! I guess the point wasn't to gain some mental understanding from certain teachings that you could then go back and apply to your life. I guess the point was to get blissed out, to feel the top of your head lift off and your brains float away, rather than to give people real stuff to think about. This way, they would keep coming back for more of that bliss out experience and not have to think about anything (at least that's what happened to me). It really did have an addictive quality to it, kindd of an allergic addiction, though. It made my body sick, but I kept doing it anyway. Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 17:22:05 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Helen Subject: Good Point! Message: Helen: Did it ever occur to premies that those that have actually done some good in this world are ALL THINKERS? Every last one of them! Jonas Salk didn't just meditate and find the answer to polio 'by magic.' He THOUGHT about it and THOUGHT about it and THOUGHT about it! By his thoughts (and others, of course) he got the answer, not by letting his brain float away on a 'bliss' cloud. So thought is 'bad,' huh? So thought can't possibly make you happy, eh? I think Dr Salk's thoughts made a whole damned lot of people happy (and still does)! Premies: Go ahead and stop thinking. Follow your LARD's advice so that you can't possibly EVER be of any use to anyone in this world. That's the ultimate in selflessness, right? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 20, 1998 at 14:16:10 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Mike Subject: Awards Message: Yeah, buddy. Can you imagine GM winning any kind of humanitarian or peace award like Nelson Mandela, or the two fellows in Ireland who just won a joint prize? I mean, these guys, who have struggled, devoting their hearts, minds, spirits to a cause deserve our admiration, not some do-nothing , rock star like GM (IMHO) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 01:16:54 (EDT)
From: steven Email: None To: Sherlock Hammond-Holmes Subject: A slight contradiction Message: steven my wise friend is just an instrument./walk//>by Maharaji's latest video means something.But you have not seen it cause you can not get out of your chair to go find his local event in your city. You find to much happiness slapping the unknown thru the internet.Well my friend sticks and stones will break my bones but names willlll neveeeer hurt me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 01:27:01 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: steven Subject: A slight contradiction Message: ooooooooh cool steven, you're an idiot savant, perhaps? /walk//> Your HTML is pretty impressive. Why don't you apply your brain to figuring out tha the BM is just a fake and a fraud? He's after your money, he doesn't know you exist and your little ''inner trips'' could be had by a myriad of ways. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 10:04:36 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: steven Subject: What is steven? Message: steven my wise friend is just an instrument So, what are you? A saxophone, a scapel, a broom perhaps? Oh. I know...you're... A DILDO Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 16:53:50 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Bwah, ha ha ha ha (nt) Message: LOL! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 14:00:56 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: steven Subject: A slight contradiction Message: Steve: the more that I read, the more that I'm convinced that you are terminally stupid. We probably get the damned videos before you do, you idiot! Why don't you take the time to read some prior posts and you will see that it's very likely true. I, by no means, have the largest library, but I've got somewhere in the vicinity of 100 videos now. Are you telling me that they are all crap and that the REAL video is the one that I didn't see already? You really must think that we are morons... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 01:29:26 (EDT)
From: steven Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Poster child for the guru Message: I have fun with you people too. Its like like trying to tell mythoughts to fuck off and die.Really you people are so out of it. Thats why your stuck in your pooop.Go see you your master in a video. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 01:51:20 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: steven Subject: Poster child for the guru Message: Now I know why the BM doesn't want his geeks communicating on the internet or anywhere else for that matter. Hence the robot scripts and the tightly edited and controlled website. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 02:11:43 (EDT)
From: steven Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Poster child for the guru Message: I do what I want to do. The only geek here is Gerry.As for the tightness. Your butt is probably shaped like a triangle right.The boss likes confrontation and so do I.So did Krishna and arjuna.You though on the other hand probably just fight with your left hand against your middle leg. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 03:03:39 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: steven Subject: Poster child for the guru Message: 'I do what I want to do' Hmmmm..that'sno attitude for a student of the supreme lord......He'll get you man....beg forgiveness. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 18:15:54 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Steven Subject: Poster child for the guru Message: Dear Steven: Surely you don't have to resort to calling people masturbaters, do you? Most people get over that in elementary school (they don't get over masturbating--they just stop talking about it). Grow up! What else have you got in your arsenal? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 03:01:16 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: steven Subject: Poster child for the guru Message: 'Go see you your master in a video. ' don't you know that the True Master is omni-present(+omni everything). A video image is just that...an image that most 'students' see and is 'maharaji' for them. True seekers(students?) will always question their core beliefs... You've been........conned again. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 15:14:20 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: steven Subject: Poster child for the guru Message: Stevie: Judging from your numerous posts this weekend, I'd say that saying we are out of it is alot like the pot calling the kettle black. You are lost in cult-think. You are damaging your brain by trying to shut off a primary function.... you know... it's called THINKING! For how many years have you believed he was YOUR lord? For how many years have you had to change the way you think to suit his whim? For how many years have you given your everything to him, with nothing in return? For how many years have you given your hard-earned money and sweat to support his opulent lifestyle? For how many years has he squandered it, without making the slightest bit of a difference in this world? For how many years have you been a fully-realized soul? You're not realized, yet????? My, my, my... tsk... tsk... tsk. What's taking you (him) so long? - As for the 'master:' I got YOUR master right here...bub! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 21:44:11 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: steven Subject: a suggestion Message: If I went to him once, I'm in it for life? 'Dead soldiers'? Look at this language you are using to describe your Lord. Is he a good Lord or a bad Lord? If you're going to convince me that I'm missing something, you've got to work on your presentation and persuasive skills a little, steven!. Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 01:04:22 (EDT)
From: steven Email: None To: Helen Subject: a suggestion Message: helen each person I write to is from the feeling I get from them.That message was for that person.I am sorry not to be as good a writer as the rest of you.I am sure you all are alot more intelligent than I. I do not know why I bother to convey this message.Just that, you all seem so out of touch, with the feeling, inside your heart.If you have the gift from the master!Then call your community find out where the local knowledge video presentation is and go see for yourself.Forget about the lord this stuff and that stuff.The master does not care what you call him.HE JUST wants you to be like a student you once were.Trust your self not the words. The hell with the instructors etc.Your old world WORD glossery and index was buried long ago.Your stuck! Go see a recent video with him and you only.Of course you think everyone is a slave.That is because your looking out of a slave's eyes. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 01:10:53 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: steven Subject: an apology Message: Sorry steven, I hadn't realized until now the limits of your ability to think and understand. Go your blissful way and ENJOYLIFE. Christ, I feel like a professional boxer who just punch a cripple... Jack, where are you? OP call home, even CD...help this guy out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 01:22:41 (EDT)
From: steven Email: None To: Gerry Subject: an apology Message: sorry my friend your words fall short.The only thing your punchinn is that stupid keyboard infront of those finite eyes. Du. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 01:31:04 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: steven Subject: an apology Message: Hey well, at least we're friends. I was beginning to wonder. Now can you answer me, what's so terrible about being a truck driver or being gay? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 01:55:34 (EDT)
From: steven Email: None To: Gerry Subject: an apology Message: I was 48 state driver for many years.Put up with many strange animals in human bodies.Thats what people are when they lose love and compassion.But how would you Know anyway.You fight with airwaves.Maharaji is trying and doing a very good job of bringing peace to people and you guys just desire hate and distrust and slander to a person that has never deviated from his misson since he was born. But you people took the vows then left them to rot.Like a semi full of veges.He is not telling you to do anything.He got rid of the those people that did.So know he gives it himself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 02:09:12 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: steven Subject: tired of the B team Message: Listen, asshole, I didn't take ANY vows re the Bm or knowledge. Love the rotten vegetable metaphor, though. It's a real classic. One I didn't stick around to hear. Heard it plenty of times here, though. Makes me wanna puke lima beans all over the screen. Rotten ones, too. Airwaves? Is that how this works?!? Noooooooo G'night, Einstein. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 02:17:00 (EDT)
From: steven Email: None To: Gerry Subject: tired of the B team Message: pal if your not a premie or ex.why are you even conversing with people who did recieve it.And why are they with you.Noooo one is able to recieve from a computor. They must first go ask then take the vows then ....You are the wannabeeeee here butcakes Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 04:31:56 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: steven Subject: tired of the B team Message: (1) I didn't sign anything, no vows, nothing. If I had it would be perfectly correct reneging on those vows, because Mr I-will-bring peace-to-the-world-in-less-than-twenty-years (circa 1973) broke his vows to me. A vow is no more than a contract. (2) You seem to be under the illusion that you have to follow the lard to have an experience called knowledge. This isn't true. I have wonderful meditations whenever I want, even though I think mr slimebag is full of shit. So full of shit, that he has run it so that you don't even realize that it is by YOUR grace that you experience anything. Jethro, if you're into it, tell him about those people you met who got knowledge from the ex-premie running their own show. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 14:51:20 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Knowledge without M Message: << Here is the letter from one of them from the 'letters' page 'VERY interesting site. . . I had a step brother toook part in the US orchestra then became ill and came back to the UK' . . . I'd wondered what he was on about with the probs. . . now I know a bit more!! I'd recieved knowledge quite a few years ago , but not from Maharaji. . . Simmilar 'stuff' re 'group' happend but on a miniscule scale. Seems somehow I've 'missed out' just kept on practicing and experiencing what life has brought me.. . . I was told and beleved that the purity of the place I go to the purity of Love cannot be tainted, and so it has been for me. . . Quite amazing really what can be, and has been built up around it. Now all I know is that there is an expereince on a very deep level which I connect to which I cannot fully describe in words, and which I fullly trust. ... the rest is confusion - (mine and or others). !! After reading your site, I am curious what connection my teacher had with DLM (15-20 or so years ago) I was wondering if anyone had heard of Malila st Duval (or Ysatis de Saint Simmone as she later became) I belive she was in one of the Ashrams in the ealry days. -- Do let me know . . . Also if anyone knows where she is I'd like to hear. . . last I heard was she'd gone back to Miami (beach?) Best wishes' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 18:02:10 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Steven Subject: TO Stevie Message: Stevie: I agree with ham, except that I did take vows... Vows are a two way street, as ham said, a contract. I kept my end of the bargain. I surrendered the reigns, I meditated, did satsang and did service a plenty. That was my end, according to M himself! - His end of the bargain: Peace on earth in less than 20 years. Liberation for each and every one of us. An answer to every question. That was his end, according to M himself! - Scorecard: Mike: 3 out of 3. LARD: 0 out of 3. Sounds like breach of contract to me. Therefore, vows broken by M, contract null and void! Steve, he didn't keep a single vow to me.... NOT ONE! As a lord of the universe, he sucks! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 03:09:55 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: steven Subject: an apology Message: Hey Steven, What do you think of the fact that some of your master's ministers(e.g. padarthanand, jagdeo) have been accused of paedophillia and sexual harrassment? Also what do you think of the fact that the master has full knowledge of their behaviour and did nothing about this and continues to give them provilaged access to people? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 19:12:51 (EDT)
From: op Email: None To: jethro Subject: an apology Message: I know it's kind of hard to keep these complicated Indian names straight, but let's try, shall we? Parlokanand - an instructor during the middle 70s, a very young guy, discovered while he was an instructor that he is gay. I personally never heard of his involvement with children, but I do know of an affair he had with someone in South America. He was asked not to continue as an instructor (i.e., was fired) and went back to India, where he continued his education and became an engineer. I haven't heard about him recently, but will ask - if anyone's interested. Padarthanand - is currently an instructor. Has not been accused EVER of sexual misconduct. Jagdeo - according to people on this site, touched at least one teenage girl inappropriately. I'm not excusing that, but keep in mind that he has not been accused of rape or of actual seduction. He is no longer an instructor and has not been around for several years. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 19:19:02 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: op Subject: It should be an apology Message: op: I don't care if Jagdeo just 'touched at least one teenage girl inappropriately' or had sex with her. It amounts to the same damned thing and I can't believe that you are excusing it by saying that it wasn't an 'actual seduction or rape.' It's called sexual assault, idiot! And YES YOU WERE trying to excuse it with the worst possible excuse! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 19:35:17 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: op Subject: an apology Message: OP, Let's be a little more comprehensive, shall we? 1) Jagdeo: I've corresponded with two women who were abused in like fashion by Jagdeo. They were both prepubescent when he fondled them. One reported that he did that to her young, premie kid friends as well. 2) Padarthanand: KK reported that he did indeed come on to her at some point. Sexual abuse? Just think 'fiduciary relationship' before you say no. The courts might find otherwise. 3) Trebinanand: He raped a girl in a Canadian ashram. She freaked out, had a complete breakdown and carved an X in her forehead while institutionalized. I know the woman and I know her sister who's spoken quite candidly to me about it all. 4) Tejeshwaranand: He impregnated a couple of 'sisters' during his time over here. As I've explained before, he camped out in Vancouver for a while, long enough to fly one girlfriend in from the Philly ashram and to have her join a small harem he'd started in Vancouver. We had two houses then, side by side. He moved everyone out of the one so he and his 'angels' could take it over. On another occasion, he ducked out of a late night knowledge session in Nelson, B.C. so he could fuck some girl there. How do I know? Because Gary Ockendon explained that he, Gary, took over revealing the light technique to people while mahatma-ji was 'resting'. The girl got pregnant. 5) Maharaji has allegedly been fucking Ms. Monika for years now. Breach of trust? You tell me. All I can say is that I'd love to represent her in that action if she ever woke up and saw just how far the 'I'm your Lord and you're looking pretty good' line had taken him. And is she the only woman Maharaji's ever fucked around with? Come on, op, you tell us! Any of them premies? Think 'breach of trust', 'breach of trust'..... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 20, 1998 at 05:41:53 (EDT)
From: op Email: None To: Jim & Mike Subject: an apology Message: I really meant it when I said that I'm not trying to excuse Jagdeo's actions. I was pointing out that he is not around any more. Draw your own conclusions. Padarthanand: sorry, I missed the conversation about him, and hadn't heard about these allegations. However, please keep in mind that all instructors are not bound by celibacy rules now. I know several who have had relationships quite openly. In this case: was it sexual harrassment (i.e. unprovoked and continual despite KK's rejection of him)? Or was it an approach, rebuffed, and then discontinued? Trebin and Tejesh - if these things happened as you say (note: I'm NOT arguing that they didn't, just stating that I don't have first-hand knowledge and therefore can't accept them as absolute without more evidence), of course they are immoral and inhuman acts. It was a hard-learned lesson to many that the 'mahatmas' weren't saints. As for your last question, Jim - no comment. I still insist that there is a lot of hearsay on this forum, and I think this is a matter between M and his family. Realize, of course, that you and I are put at opposite ends of these arguments by our current affiliations - 'ex' vs. 'practicing' premie. You are not allowed, by your own rules of order, to move one inch toward agreement with me. And I, to be true to my role here, must stand and defend. So if there is any common ground, we skirt around it and simply bare teeth at each other. This next item is theoretical - it doesn't make any presumptions about ANY individuals, ok? I'd seriously like to know, are your morals so high and mighty that - for example - you would leave your lover if you discovered that she'd had a roll in the hay? Or do you simply hold M to those standards because you have a very fixed image (and a rather Judeo/Christian one at that) of how a 'Perfect Master' should act? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 20, 1998 at 11:02:49 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: op Subject: an apology Message: As for your last question, Jim - no comment. I still insist that there is a lot of hearsay on this forum, and I think this is a matter between M and his family. Well this relly raises a central issue to any discusion about Maharaji: what is is fair privacy interest? Op, imagine Maharaji was the head of some company. We both had worked there together in the 70s. You're still there but I left years ago and am now criticising the company and its owner for unfair trade practices. As I say, you're still there and are naturally defending him. Say I get wind of some possible scandal in his personal life and I ask you about that. In that case, op, I'd agree with you. The man's personal life is really not my business. I'm simply stretching, looking for dirt of any kind, forgetting there's a limit to relevancy, forgetting common decency. But op, op, this isn't the case, is it? Maharaji never held himself out to me or any of us as an arm's length kind of guy. He asked us to surrender our lives to him, to try to give up our separate identities so that 'Maharaji' could really take over. The ashram was about nothing if it wasn't about giving onesself over entirely. What's wrong? Don't you remember? Can't you really put yourself back there? Honestly, op, can you do it? Because if you could I think, quite honestly, you'd gag on your words today. The fact is, Maharaji held himself out as the paragon of purity, sacrifice, humility and righteousness. Yes, his private life is vey much my business. After all, for eight years, mine was his, wasn't it? If I wanted to so much as visit my mother, it was his business. Think about it and be honest, will ya? Realize, of course, that you and I are put at opposite ends of these arguments by our current affiliations - 'ex' vs. 'practicing' premie. You are not allowed, by your own rules of order, to move one inch toward agreement with me. And I, to be true to my role here, must stand and defend. Listen, op, you can cut the projection stuff right now. I'm free to say or think whatever I want. I don't answer to anyone here and you know it. You igve me a good reason to follow Maharaji again and I'll happily write the biggest 'Dear John' letter this page has ever seen (the first too, I guess). No, you're the one who has to look over her back. You're the one who can't talk openly here. I don't doubt that you've had candid disucssions with the odd friend here or there about Maharaji's 'love life'. You just can't broach the subject here. And why? Because you know as well as the rest of us that his hypocrisy is absoltuely amazing. Fullstop. So if there is any common ground, we skirt around it and simply bare teeth at each other. Alright, what's the common ground here? That he USED to fuck around a lot but has recently recommitted himself to his family? Come on, op, what are the facts and what's the spin on it all you'd like me to agree with? This next item is theoretical - it doesn't make any presumptions about ANY individuals, ok? I'd seriously like to know, are your morals so high and mighty that - for example - you would leave your lover if you discovered that she'd had a roll in the hay? Or do you simply hold M to those standards because you have a very fixed image (and a rather Judeo/Christian one at that) of how a 'Perfect Master' should act? The latter, hands down. Yes, I'm guilty of having a very fixed image of how the guy who told me to trust him implicitly, to leave nary a drop of doubt in my mind, who claimed he was my LORD, for God's sake, should act in the world. Sorry. I know it's completely contrary to the story of the devotee who sees his guru walking down the street drunk with his arms around two whores. Remember? (How could you forget?). In that story, the good devotee bats not an eyelash. He knows that his guru is great and anything he does in the world, the guru that is, is a gift of love and a lesson for the wise. Like... well just like the scene in 'Life of Brian' where Brian throws his sandals at the crowd and tells them to fuck off. Like that. Sorry, I don't buy that shit. Do you? Honestly, do you? Andif so, are there any limits? Don't say you can't answer a hypothetical question like this because that little lesson is all about preparing yourself in advance for hypothetical situations. Either you buy the 'principle' or you don't. Well? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Oct 21, 1998 at 23:56:53 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: op Subject: AAARGGGHHHHHH!!!! Message: Op, you were starting to make sense there and then you pissed me off. Are you saying that it is exclusively 'Judeo-Christian' to uphold the vows of marriage? As if it's hopelessly unrealistic in this day and age that two people could uphold vows they had made to be faithful to one another? What is wrong with Judeo-Christian values anyway? At least that tradition espouses some pretty straightforward values, unlike the Guru formerly known as Lord. Of all people who should be absolutely scrupulous in their behavior, is someone in the public eye like Maharaji, ESPECIALLY someone who has dictated rules to other people about how they should conduct themselves sexually. How dare you say that we should not hold him to a higher standard--he who professed to be Lord! ' A very fixed image' of a Perfect Master, my eye. Are you saying that a so-called religious or spiritual teacher should be allowed to screw around on his WIFE with whom he took VOWS, and that folks should just say, 'oh, silly me, that's my fixed image again. It must be Guru Maharaji's Lila.' With this type of thinking, GM can do whatever unethical thing he pleases...See this is where it all falls apart...if you're going to follow a new agey, narcissistic type of Guru, this is what you're gonna get. You'll forgive him anything, won't you? Anything goes. I see you just mopping up after all GM's spills the rest of your life. Most people, whether they are Jewish, Christian, atheist,agnostic, or Hindu manage to be moral people, to not screw around on our spouses (which hurts our spouses and our kids), to work for the stuff we have and to be decent honest people. I expect the same from Maharaji, no less, no more. How can you keep defending this guy? Who is he to you? What is in it for you? DO you have fuzzy morals too? Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 20, 1998 at 03:23:25 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: op Subject: an apology Message: 'I know it's kind of hard to keep these complicated Indian names straight, but let's try, shall we?' Trying to be a smart arse eh? I suspect I have spent more time with the great mahatmas both in the UK and India than you. Wait until the indian ex-premies get vocal. I never knew parlokanand, only jagdeo and padarthanand(or shoulod I say 'paddy'). I have no problem with indian names. 'Padarthanand - is currently an instructor. Has not been accused EVER of sexual misconduct.' Bollocks. See the thread that was up here a couple of months ago. How about answering my question to Steven, you know the one about HIM know about the harrassment and not doing anything about it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 20, 1998 at 17:23:19 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: op Subject: Correction, op Message: Parlokanand - an instructor during the middle 70s, a very young guy,discovered while he was an instructor that he is gay. I personally never heard of his involvement with children, First of all, Parlokanand was a mahatma, not an 'instructor.' He was found to be sexually molesting little boys in about 1975. First he was sent to San Antonio, where I was living at the time, and forced to work in the car wash. We were told that he wasn't to have any access to children and that he had been molesting little boys. He was a pedophile. This was common knowledge among the premies, op, I had no idea you were so out of touch. As you can imagine I'm a little offended at your suggestion that his being gay had anything to do with it. I never knew he was gay, but I did know of his sexual proclivities with children. As I hope you know, it is a false stereotype, fomented by the rabid right wing, that there is some connection between being gay and being a pedophile. In fact the two are entirely unconnected. Pedophilia is a sexual attraction to children, it has nothing to do with one's sexual orientation, and in fact, the overwhelming majority of child molesters are heterosexual men. Regarding Padarthanand, we have had first-hand accounts on this forum that he sexually assaulted at least two women, one of whom had a nervous breakdown as a result. Jagdeo didn't just 'touch' young girls. He used them as sexual objects for his own gratification, according to two of the victims, the details of which I won't go into, but I'm sure you can imagine what they are. By the way, this was reported to Maharaji, but Jagdeo was apparently unrestrained in his freedom and access to little girls, and certainly suffered no punishment. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 10:44:57 (EDT)
From: Steven Email: None To: steven Subject: There IS love, steven Message: Steven, I do not think I'm out of touch with the feeling inside my heart, Steven. And if you read a lot of the messages posted here you will see that there is a lot of love here. Not just here, steven, but all around the world, wherever you go. One of the things that amazed me when I started thinking for myself again (I am speaking about me, I am not trying to put you down) is that the world is full of loving, generous people who were, as you say, in touch with the feeling side of life. It might be the little old woman in the grocery store, or the gruff neighbor I thought was such a grouch but brought me flowers when my dog died. Or the friends I thought were narrow-minded who turned out to be a lot of fun. I do not think that the feeling side of life and the thinking side of life are in conflict with one another. In fact, the more I understand, the more of a loving heart I can have. For example, in raising my child, the more I understand the stage of development my child is going through, through studing & talking to other parents, the more I can be loving parent in trying to meet her needs. You tell me I should go a see a video-- Steven, I simply don't want to. I am no big intellectual genius, but I have learned from my past experiences w/GM that he is no good for me. You say he has changed, but I still see him living large, rich, and living off of his devotees. I have no interest in him anymore, because I have found other ways to fill my heart with love. I have found other teachings to live my life by. The thinking side of me and the feeling part of me are much more in synch now and I am a lot happier than when I was following Guru Maharaji. Does Guru Maharaji's lifestyle bother you at all steven? Can you see any value at all to the discussion that goes on here at this website? Please write me back. Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 11:05:03 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Steven Subject: OOPS! Message: Steven, I didn't mean to say that last post was from Steven but from Helen...sorry. I am still trying to figure out computers in general. Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 19:31:00 (EDT)
From: Diz Email: None To: Helen Subject: seeing things differently Message: Hi Helen Well put. I think part of the problem that arises when premies try to communicate with ex-premies is that their whole frame of reference is different. When I think about 'love', I think about a whole web of big and little experiences, which includes but is by no means limited to what I experience when I meditate. For many premies (I'm not saying all), 'love' is LIMITED to the experience of meditation and going to programs. Steven, you suggest I have go to a video where there will be just me and MJ. To ignore everyone else. Actually, I don't want to do that. I like people, by and large, and I enjoy communicating with them, tossing ideas around with them, finding out what's important in their lives. I personally don't think MJ's new approach (well, newish) approach of cutting the premies out of the communication cycle is an advance. I'm pretty shoked, actually, by the extent to which premies on this site and enjoyinglife seem to parrot MJ's worldview. Brian said recently that what concerns him is that premies seem to have no centre. He meant, I think, no PERSONAL ETHICAL centre. They may have a 'centre' in terms of an experience of meditation. But unfortunately, that experience seems to come pretty much value-free. It's like tofu, tasteless until you add something to it, when it can taste like various weird and wonderful things (hey, I was a good vegetarian, though I don't remember the seed satsang!). Mj has overlaid 'the experience' with a whole heap of beliefs, WHICH PREMIES DON'T EVEN RECOGNISE as beliefs! This is what's frightening, to me. Thus even the well-intentioned people that Sir David and Mel talk about can be subtly pulled away from their unique ethical centre, into Maharaji's way of looking at, and valuing (or devaluing) things. Hopefully, some don't let that happen. I think, however, that to resist the constant messages through the videos may often mean that premies have to run two sets of beliefs concurrently. A 'splitting' which can't be healthy... Thanks, Helen, hope all is well with you Love, Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 20, 1998 at 15:11:57 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Diz Subject: seeing things differently Message: Hey Diz, how are you girl? I figured out your gender, I hope you do not mind, but you referred to yourself as 'she' at one point. Girl, I know what you mean about the many dimensions of love, and how enjoyable it is to be part of the human race, taking part in discussing ideas, finding out what makes other people tick. I think I was so screwed up back then, I was so afraid to learn and grow to be curious about learning new things. I would go scurrying back to the big GM's lap if someone looked cross-eyed at me. I keep coming back to the whole premies as children thing don't I Diz? Children (two year olds) are pure id. 'If I see it, it's mine. If I give it to you and change my mind, it's mine. Mine mine, me me.' Very centered on themselves (MY experience, MY blankie) Our frame of reference IS different now, because we are more able to see that others' experiences might have some validity. We are able to entertain the notion that we were wrong in some ways and right in other ways, just as all humans are capable of being. I don't mean to imply that all premies are a case of arrested development but I certainly was. I used pot-smoking and GM for basically the same purpose--to avoid the necessary pain that comes from growth at all costs! WHen I read the posts of some of the former premies who were so dedicated, I see that their minds were at a higher stage of moral development than mine was that's for sure! Mine was more like 'Me cavewoman, me get high to avoid straining my brain too much!' Good to hear from you Diz. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 11:09:45 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Steven Subject: There IS love, steven Message: Well said, Helen. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 11:14:16 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jerry Subject: There IS love, steven Message: Thank you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 13:03:04 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Helen Subject: I could tell Message: Helen: I could tell it wasn't him by the clarity of your post. Nicely put, by the way. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 13:27:10 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Mike Subject: Thanks, Mike, Message: How have you been, Mike? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 08:32:44 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: steven Subject: a suggestion Message: relax everything has changed. forget about the premies. let the old times go. turn of your computor OFF some time and go to a local VIDEO EVENT. just walk in sit down and feel your best friend talk to you. Not your thoughts, who you seem to be a total slave to. Its just you and Him. Not you and every body else. Or is it that you can not find you any more? Its so simple to practice yet you have to be quiet for a while. This is what's left of DLM??? Never Delay In Pretending Satsang??? People filing into video events and pretending that there's nobody else in the room, while they feel their best friend talk to them?? And they all share a common fantasy that the person on video is not only their best friend, but that he is actually in the room??? No wonder why Maharaji only inititated 333 people in North America last year!! He's competing with the Pharmaceutical Industry! Unbefuckinglieveable... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 10:05:03 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Brian Subject: a suggestion Message: ' why Maharaji only inititated 333 people in North America last year' Is that figure for real, Brian, or just a wind-up? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 14:53:31 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: hamzen Subject: It should be 666 (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 18:06:56 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: hamzen Subject: Oops, sorry Maharaji Message: Is that figure [333] for real, Brian, or just a wind-up? Elan Vital sent out thank you cards to those who contributed money in 1997 to Maharaji's mission to spread the world's wealth all around him. It was also an invitation to repeat the mistake in 1998. The correct figure is a whopping 366 people received Knowledge in North America in 1997, not the measly 333 that I previously posted. [Sorry about that, Maharaji. But you know how unreliable information is on this site.] There were 3 whole knowledge sessions held on the continent! Probably close to a record. What a hardworking guy, eh? Where does he get the stamina??? When I first posted this, JW worked out how long it would take to take Knowledge to the rest of the continent, and evidently we're gonna need a much larger Millennium... The card refers to 1997 as being a remarkable and inspiring year. I keep meaning to make a page out of this remarkable and inspiring piece of fluff. I'll leave it out by my puter where I'll remember it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 18:16:21 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Brian Subject: Ooooooo, yeah Message: Brian: I'm really impressed by that schedule that M has to keep. Wow, he doesn't even seem to have time for sleep (isn't that what some moron said recently?). Three whole K-sessions... Wow! -I'm interested, how long did JW caculate that it would take to bring peace in our time? At 366 people per year, it seems like world peace is going to take a bit longer than the 20 years that our dear lard projected (back in 71). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 20:08:21 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Brian Subject: Oops, sorry Maharaji Message: Thanks for that Brian, much appreciated, for some reason that news has stunned me. I had no idea he was failing so totally. You don't have figures for previous years for the US, or figures for anywhere else for '97 do you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 23:34:19 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: hamzen Subject: Oops, sorry Maharaji Message: You don't have figures for previous years for the US, or figures for anywhere else for '97 do you? Don't have them, but I figure it's one of three scenarios: 1) The previous years were even smaller, in which case things are looking much better. Donate even MORE money! 2) There were exactly 366 in previous years, in which case Maharaji has hit his stride and those who donate can know that they're still getting their money's worth. 3) The future ain't what it used to be. Premies shouldn'ta taken that chastity thang so seriously. BREED! BREED! BREED! ENJOY LIFE! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 20, 1998 at 00:04:16 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Brian Subject: Now there WAS a Message: Brain: GREAT IDEA! If only we had been a TANTRIC order vice a monastic one.... Ahhhh the thought of it, Ashram orgie.....NAH, I don't want to offend anyone. Nice thought, though (and funny as heck) he he he. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 20, 1998 at 12:21:10 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Mike Subject: You joined the wrong cult. Message: Rajneesh cultists got to do all the screwing! BM'ers just got screwed! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 20, 1998 at 05:11:19 (EDT)
From: op Email: None To: Brian, Ham, et al Subject: Just to set the record Message: straight: Actually, more like 20 Knowledge sessions per year. The ones in the USA have been among the smallest. In some places (India, Mauritius, Kathmandu, etc.) the sessions have been with as many as 3,000 or more people at a time. In other countries (Taiwan, Japan, e.g.) they are much smaller. Between 1995 and 1998 about 17,000 people per year have received Knowledge worldwide. M has been participating in over 100 events per year, including Knowledge Sessions and conferences. His itinerary doesn't include only the large programs listed on the event schedule. Yes, he's a hard working, very dedicated person. And his body ages just like yours and mine and the toll of all the travel shows up in physical exhaustion just like it would on yours or mine. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 20, 1998 at 08:07:07 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: op Subject: Just to set the record Message: Yes, he's a hard working, very dedicated person. And his body ages just like yours and mine and the toll of all the travel shows up in physical exhaustion just like it would on yours or mine. Don't forget the effects of getting pissed and shagging regularly. The body weight doesn't come from no-where either. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 11:19:25 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Brian Subject: a suggestion Message: Yes it's a bit like Soma in the book 'Brave New World'. Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 17, 1998 at 16:15:13 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com To: Jim and Everyone Subject: Jim's burden Message: Well, Jim, it seems we finally have a motive for your self confessed HATRED of premies and your obsession with ensuring M's downfall. I can fully understand the difficulties in coming to terms with this tragedy regarding your Ashram friend's suicide. I guess the dilemma for you is… 'Who was responsible?' 1. Was it you - do you feel that you tipped this guy over the edge because of what you said in your 'satsang'? 2. Was it M, because you were conditioned by the DLM/Ashram set up, and this made you parrot the Divine concepts of the time? 3. Did this guy have inherent mental instability and this was why he suicided? 4. Was it a combination of all of the above? What is clear, Jim, is that you feel tremendous guilt at what happened and your role in it. This guilt is projected quite vividly into this forum in the form of anti-M and premies vitriol and appears to be the way you attempt to come to terms with your past. Everytime you see premie 'devotion' expressed, it must remind you of previous 'devotion' and your own possible culpability in this tragedy - so you attack. In essence, you blame M for the whole incident and by apportioning the blame in this way you protect yourself from whatever you think your role in it was. Jim, what a burden to carry around for your life. I cannot imagine what you go through and am grateful that life hasn't presented me with a situation like this to come to terms with. Actually, I think M acted wisely in closing the ashrams, at least this kind of crazy fanaticism that spawned this type of situation was nipped in the bud. (obviously too late in your friend's case), despite and at the expense of other Ashram premies' dedication. Thank God the 'GREAT ASHRAM MANUAL' (and all it stood for) were consigned to history over 15 years ago! As to the issue of M's divinity. I think that issue disappeared years ago, and it is interesting to note in Aaron's comment below, that ….. 'I didn't know about his previous attitude where he put himself at the same level as god.' I think this a very telling comment regarding current attitudes about M's divinity that have grown over the last decade or so. Had this atmosphere pervaded years ago, this tragedy could have been avoided and you may not have to be carrying this burden and trying to resolve the associated issues of blame. I know you and some other exe's may regard this post as a blunt intrusion into an extremely sensitive issue for you, but , firstly, you seem to respect bluntness and secondly, other readers here may be enlightened as to the reasons behind your vehement anti-M and premie postings. Anyway, Jim, I think that it is time to move on in life and to quit punishing yourself, M and others with your hatred and obsession for vengeance. This hatred will destroy the quality of your life if it already has not done so. . With respect Mel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 17, 1998 at 16:41:26 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Dr. Mel B. Afraud Subject: Jim's burden Message: Holy fuck Melbie, boy! You finally got it all figgered out on Jimbo! Now can you do me next???? Pleeeeeze???? Hey, I hate the greasy slug too and I was only in the cult for about a year, twenty five years ago! And premies make me gag, too. Especially you, you cult apologist, psuedo intellectual, armchair psycho-anal-ist What a lowdown cheapshot in the guise of ''help'' and ''understanding.'' I had your number the very first time you showed up. YOU FUCKING CREEP! PREMIE ASSHOLE CULT TOE SUCKING SHITHEAD! GET LOST! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 17, 1998 at 16:50:57 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Mel Boring B. A fraud Subject: Jim's burden Message: I forgot the smiley face at the end of my post, so here it is :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 17, 1998 at 22:15:13 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Jim's burden Message: I'm glad you remembered to add that smiley face, Gerry. I never would have known where you were coming from if you hadn't. Just joking :) This Mel Bourne is something else, though, isn't he? He seems to thrive on choosing the most opportune times for giving the blade a good twist, doesn't he? Remember the time some exes came forth with revelations about sexual abuse from mahatmas. Good old Mel showed up with concern that we were jeopardizing the existence of the site if we were to persist in discussing the matter. That time he spoke like a lawyer. Now he's shown up as an analyst, filling Jim in on why his heart is broken over his friend's tragic death. Maybe if Mel really had a heart, himself, like every good premie should, he'd have a little sympathy and just back off. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 17, 1998 at 16:43:08 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Jim's burden Message: Mel, I REALLY don't want to be a hyopcrite about this or to use Dave's death even for what I'm sure is a good cause (i.e. the destruction of the Maharaji cult). How can I explain? On the one hand, if and when I put myself back there -- so long ago now -- yes, I feel something. Look, I'm being completely honest with you. You have to understand that I personally don't feel a twinge of guilt. Not a bit. In answer to your questions (which you pose but don't seem too interested in answering yourself what with your 'move on, move on' advice) I say the answer is No. 2 and 2 alone. No. 1 doesn't cut it because Dave was already over the edge. My 'just meditate' satsang was only what he'd been hearing from everyone else. There was nothing bizarre, new or especially fanatical about what I told him. That is, I didn't up the ante for him, increase the torque, tighten the screw. He was already there. Maharaji put him there, no one else. I WAS simply parrotting the party line. I take no responsibility for that. After all, I was in a cult and truly believed that the mind was a foreign occupation force, JUST LIKE MAHARAJI EXPLAINED. I truly believed that the more intense it fought the closer we were to really 'surrendering', JUST LIKE MAHARAJI EXPLAINED. I truly believed that the only way to fight it was by trying to ignore it and thrusting onesself into satsang, service and meditation, JUST LIKE MAHARAJI EXPLAINED. Above all, I believed that Mahararaji knew what he was talking about and that I should not second guess him or, God forbid, leave any room for doubt in my mind, JUST LIKE MAHARAJI ORDERED! As for the question of Dave's possible 'inherent instability', really, if you're clear about this you see that it's a big non-starter. A red herring and nothing more. Say I give PCP (Anmgel Dust) to 20 19-year olds, telling them each that I'm the great PCP master, PCP is the secret of peace and happiness and, for best results, they should never question a word I say. 10 have a great time, 5 get a little confused, 1 feels nothing, 1 goes to the hospital and 1, most unfortunately, kills himself. Am I responsible? For what? I'd say I'm responsible for all of it. Every last bit of it. It doesn't matter that the suicide was a little less hardy than the others. I took it upon myself to be responsible. And, accordingly, I am. You yourself describe that era as one of 'crazy fanaticism'. I agree. I also agree that the Ashram Manual is as good a testament to that fact as anything. What you so gingerly avoid discussing, however, is the fact that Maharaji himself was responsible for the whole thing. Really, Mel, if you weren't protecting him at all costs but were willing to be the slightest bit objective about this, you'd have no choice but to concur without hesitation. But, by the way, I don't think Dave WAS particularly unstable. I'm telling you, that cult programming was a real mindfuck. It was intended to be. Therre's no reason in the world to believe Dave would have gronw self-destructive in any other circumstances, anymore than there would be speculating that the PCP suicide was doomed in any event. That's just bullshit. I mean, it'd be like saying that Mahatma Fakiranand was bound to try to kill someone no matter what. He just found a vehicle for his murderous tendencies while serving Maharaji. That would be nuts. So, Mel, what it comes down to is still one thing: responsibility. That's what we've been saying all along. That's what Maharaji will never skate around. And why should he? He is, after all, the one guy who told me to surrender the reins of my life to him, trust him 100 per cent and all that. He owes us an accounting. Not on his terms either. On ours. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 15:10:54 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: The burden of suicide Message: Jim, Well put. When someone makes themselves into 'God', they assume a lot of responsibility. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 17, 1998 at 21:40:38 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Jim's burden Message: Mel, I have got to tell you, I find your note to Jim to be quite hostile in tone. I would much rather have someone be outward with their 'vitriol' than to sneak up with it in such a cold-hearted and nasty way in the guise of concern as you have done here. Why not just be brave and say what you want to say to Jim? How convenient that you can blame Jim's vitriol on this one experience. Do you not see that there is a bigger picture here? Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 17, 1998 at 22:45:12 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: You mean MJ is not the Lord? Message: You are right about new people not getting the 'MJ is divine' programming. We old-timers were told to let new people discover who he was for themselves. However, MJ forgot to tell us old-timers that he wasn't really the Lord of the Universe after all. If you had asked me on June 7, 1998 who MJ was, I would have said he is the Lord. If you ask the other community members in London, Ontario, they'll tell you the same thing. Anne Johnson regularly referred to him as her 'Lord.' One time, she almost jumped out of her skin when a video of his bare foot was shown. Why is he having people kiss his feet if he's no one special? For us 'regular folks', foot kissing is reserved for lovers and for young children. When is the last time you had a two-mile parade of people kissing your feet? Hey, Mel, why don't you ask MJ to send all his devotees a letter stating that: a) He is not divine, but merely a meditation teacher; b) He is not more learned on the topic of God, God-realization and living life to the fullest than his most mentally- challenged devotee; c) He does not deserve lifetime's devotion and cash from each person he teaches meditation to. Deepok Chopra charges people a fee to listen to him and learn to meditation. Why doesn't MJ do the same thing. There is nothing wrong with him earning a living this way. However, there is something grievously wrong with brainwashing people into a whole new lifestyle with a great big BELIEF SYSTEM. If he did this, I'm sure everyone on this site would hang up their gloves. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 04:47:59 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Jim's burden Message: Melbourne, could you let me know what communication theory/counselling course you are on? VERY IMPRESSIVE post. I can't believe your skill in cutting to the heart of the matter and explaining someone so clearly and simply came to you without training, or is it just another example of the wonderful clarity that comes with the practice of knowledge? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 07:31:51 (EDT)
From: Richard Email: rich2@globalnet.co.uk To: Mel Bourne Subject: Our burden Mel... Message: Well Mel, I've been away for a while and I'm staggered that, on my first visit back, you seem to have read so much, said so much and learned so little. Why you should choose to single Jim out for your attention is beyond me, maybe it's because he continually and consistently voices the collective concern about Maharaji. But it's not just his concern, it's our concern. Surely you understand the concept of being doomed to repeat the forgotten lessons of history. Well we would like to ensure that those lessons are not forgotten. You see, even if Maharaji has now become a middle class toy, a kind of suburban aerobic instructor for the mind, he did do an awful lot of damage in the process of getting there. Others, who see that, not only has he survived but, is still raking in the bucks may be encouraged to follow his lead in perpetuating the same kind of irrational bullshit onto the next generation of people who find life a struggle. I would like Maharaji, and anyone else who decides to follow his example, to know that their activities will be scrutinised, their bullshit philosophies exposed and their true motives publicised. The world can be a difficult place in which to survive and thrive, the last thing we need is to be told is to 'forget your problems, just follow me and hum!' We need to be encouraged to think for ourselves and use our minds to solve problems. I think that Jim and others on this forum do just that, with a little strength, a lot of compassion and a decent dose of common sense. Wake up Mel, find a new target or get a hobby. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 13:21:32 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: You are an ASS! Message: MB: I had 'thought' that you might be a nice person. But now I see you for what YOU REALLY ARE. Taking cheap shots at Jim (and Dave's) misfortune through your very amateruish psychoanalysis showed me two things: (1) You lied about being any form of psychologist or assistant, because that attempt of yours to analyize Jim was so absolutely and undeniably WRONG, that if you had a license, it should/would have been pulled YEARS AGO. (2) That you will stoop to any lowlife level to make a non-existent point about the NOTHING that YOU REALLY ARE! YOU are a pathetic liar, MB. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 17, 1998 at 05:43:13 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Everyone Subject: Good guys, all Message: I like premies. Their ideals are similar to the ones I've always had. Weren't we all idealists to some extent? The way I see it is that they are people with ideals similar to me who are trying to live those ideals as best they can. They are trying in the same way I once did. I don't have any faith or belief in their master but for the most part, they are sincere and genuinely believe that they are doing the right thing. I can sympathise with their views even though I think they're misguided. You only have to read the posts on the uncensored premie web site to see that these are all genuine and sincere people. Good guys all of them and many people here would be writing the same stuff before they realised the other side to Maharaji's trip. I wouldn't label the people who post to the above web site as brainwashed androids or anything like it. They're just people who still believe in the dream we all once had. I can read between the lines and see that many of the posters have been away from Maharaji for a long time and they are glad to have some contact again, even though it is just on the internet. Some contact with other people who've been into the same trip can only be a good thing. Which brings me to this point: while we all once shared the same dream and have had that dream shattered, let's not put down those people who still believe in the dream. They are sincere people who've been hoodwinked by Maharaji just like we were. I was extremely in agreement with Jethro's post below about how we used to talk to the press etc. We were open and honest to a fault. It was Maharaji who took some very sincere people and played around with them for some years and made them believe the implausable. We're still the same people and if you look at the uncensored premie web site, you'll see that these guys are just the same as we once were. They're great guys who still believe in what we believed was true. In time, they may realise the other side to Maharaji. And then I hope that a new kind of dream can become realised. The truth that both premies and ex-premies are really those good guys who believe in love and want to make the world a better place. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 17, 1998 at 09:46:55 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Good guys, all Message: Very sensible! I think our passioniate ideals about the value of critical thinking and our outrage at how we were schnookered by GM's materialism makes it hard (at least for me --I should speak for myself) to see that premies are people just like me...I get a little impatient at times ...but what you say makes a lot of sense. Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 11:50:53 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Good guys, all NOT Message: Hey David, Mel Boring's poison pen makes your theory look a little lame, doesn't it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 18:37:05 (EDT)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Gerry Subject: Good guys, all NOT Message: Well Gerry, I was talking about all the people on the uncensored premie web site and not the premies who come here to try to put us right. I think Syd Ney, sorry Mel Bourne is interfering where he should not when he attempts an amateur psychoanalysis of Jim Heller. What do you think of the free premie web site, by the way? The premie forum seems the least popular item and I may even withdraw it from the site if it continues like it is because it would become an embarrasment to the site. All the other interactive mediums are very popular and I'm glad that premies are making good use of it and appreciate it. I must also admit to a bit of smug satisfaction that the site is completely free and uncensored while the other enjoyinglife site is not. You know, only Maharaji could turn ordinary harmless phrases or words like 'mind' or 'joy' or 'enjoying life' and turn them into cult words with insidious meanings. Well, the free premie site is not a part of the cult, it can't be since I've set it up. It's a premie free-for-all and long may it continue for the benefit of all who want it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 19:24:54 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Sir D Subject: Good guys, all NOT Message: David, Yes, I believe there are some sincere, albeit, deluded premies out there. And then there's Mel Boring, steven, and clowns like that Norman Smith guy (see my 'Another Premie Liar' post above) who know better and just want to promote their little cult club. Kinda like wanting to drag everyone down into the hole they're in. I think the free premie site is great and provides a real contrast to the deceitful, phony, glossed over abomination called enjoyinglife (liars, all!). My opinion is that you should leave the forum up, if only as a monument to premie fear or inability to communicate in an open and honest manner, even the so called ''good'' guy premies. (I have to admit to a certain amount of skepticism here.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 17, 1998 at 01:15:22 (EDT)
From: Tunnel Rat Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Shake a leg Message: The lord was in the darshan tunnel in amaroo for a couple hours the night before darshan. A group of people were to go through the tunnel as sort of a dry run and kiss the pillow and well, guess who was sitting there practicing sitting when they went through. Oh the grace! Before that he was talking at length about all the stuff that has happened in the tunnel and said that he stopped giving darshan because one time someone came through and put thier head down at his feet and grabbed his feet and shook them, shakeing him in the process. They kept shakeing him and security did nothing (perhaps they figured that it was some divine effect) and so the lord had to lean down and yell 'STOP!' story courtesy of someone who was right there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 23:23:40 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Tunnel Rat Subject: Shake a leg Message: Just had to say 'great story,' Rat. Was that you shaking the Lotus Limbs? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 16, 1998 at 23:52:37 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Truth and Censorship Message: This is a letter I just sent to the Enjoyingmysimplisticidea site: 'Dear Jonathan and friends, Now that you've been online for a month, I wonder, have you given much thought to the future of your page? What do YOU envision one month, two months or even two years from now? Really, this is an interesting question. At this point, it seems the premies are truly elated with what you've done. After all, Maharaji has muzzled them for several years now. One need look no further than the bizarrely controlling script premies are expected to follow in case of media contact (ex-premie forum, Brian's post entitled 'Yet more Elan Vital gibberish'). If Maharaji is NOT paranoid, I'd say he's doing his level best to mislead people. I can't think of too many other lawful organizations so guarded. None come to mind that started with a 'don't be shy, shout it in the streets' philosophy. So, as I say, the premies are apparently quite happy that you've given them a voice of sorts. Gurucharanand's early contribution is a nice touch giving the premies the impression, true or not, that you guys have, at minimum, Maharaji's tacit approval. Yes, it's springtime in lotusland. But, like I say, I wonder how this will evolve. We all know that this cult has swung significantly from one fashion to another over the years. I won't attempt to catalogue the many phases. For one thing, I've been merely a bystander since the early 80s. Besides, if you were around in the seventies you don't need me telling you the obvious. You might not like discussing it honestly but who could forget the various moves Maharaji put us through? We were proud disciples of the living Lord. Then we were free spirits devoid of any religiosity. A few yeas later we were sackcloth and ashes, confessing en masse our depraved hearts and helplessness before Him. Then we were simply watered down. Now, it appears, the premies are uniformly HAPPY. Hmm, I ask myself, what's next? Any of you oldtimers ever ask yourself what you'd have done if someone had approached you back in one of the various phases of DLM/DUO/EV and fiarly pointed out the excesses and moral shortcomings of your actions? I have. For example, I wonder if there was anything I might have done so stop my ashram buddy from hanging himself when he started to doubt Maharaji's divinity in 1974. He came to me the day before and all I could give him was 'stay out of your mind' satsang. What if someone had approached me then and warned me of the consequences of simply parrotting the party line? That's something to think about and I do think about it from time to time. So now you guys have taken it upon yourselves to offer the premies something Maharaji himself has not: a voice. That's fine, I'm sure. But how far are you willing to go in allowing premies to actually talk openly with one another? Maybe I'm wrong but I think you've got a bit of a problem. You love it when premies say nice, safe things (how many more people are going to talk about the 'student being grateful to the teacher?' I mean, really, too much of a good thing and all...) But what if their 'Expressions' get a little less vague and vapid? I notice that you haven't started your 'Conversations' page. Are you really planning on allowing some semblance of conversation? And if you do, won't you have to watch each post like, well like Winston at the Ministry of Truth in 1984? Really, you must agree that the moment Maharaji or his monitors (hey, we've had them on the ex site for over a year!) sees the slightest sign of a controversial comment, he's going to yank your leash big time. Most of the premies who've ever posted on the ex page have done so anonymously. You guys are out there. Maharaji's watching and you know it. Tell me you're not trying to be extremely careful. So how's this going to work? And, more to the point, do you tihnk you'll be proud of yourselves years from now if you do toe the party line enough to stay in business? For example, THIS is a letter to your page. Relax, I'm not asking you to publish it. After all, I'm not just saying how grateful this tudent is to the master. It's not THAT kind of letter. But it IS an honest letter. You might not agree with me but hell, fellas, I've got a right to my opinion. I was there. I tried to dedicate my entire life to Maharaji for eight years. In fact, I don't recall you ever taking the plunge yourself, Jonathan, although I can't speak for your colleagues. Anyway, like I say, this is a letter to your page. Doesn't it bother you in the slightest that you won't publish it? Well we all have to live with ourselves. I guess it comes down to that. I've learnt that peoples' consciences aren't the deep, dependable things we thought they were when we were kids. I mean, really, can you imagine, back then, feeling proud to know that one day you'd be hosting something like this that is all about censorship as much as anything else? Hardly. But then there we are, right? It's late. I'm rambling. I'd really appreciate a reply when you get a chance. Thanks, Jim Heller' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 16, 1998 at 20:17:07 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Now, really, check this out Message: I know I'm always saying that but this one's a must. It's a link to an interview with a surviving Heaven's Gater. Tell me he doesn't sound like a premie with his vague, protests about accuracy, etc.: 'LOS ANGELES (CNN) -- Speaking on the year anniversary of the day 39 members of the Heaven's Gate cult committed suicide in California, a man who joined Heaven's Gate in 1994 called the group a 'monastery full of celibate monks' whose actions were 'misinterpreted, misrepresented and manipulated to outrageous proportions' by the media Rio DiAngelo, who knew of the group from his days as a member before the suicides, has written a book about his experiences with the cult. In an interview Thursday on CNN's 'Early Edition,' he said he had seen enough 'lies, slander and defamation of character' to 'warrant a major lawsuit.' 'But my concern is not for money here,' he said. 'My concern is for freedom' -- a freedom he fears is being eroded by people unwilling to let others choose their lifestyle.' If you go there, you can link to the actual video/audio of the interview. Too much. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 16, 1998 at 20:18:45 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Sorry, here's the address Message: http://www.cnn.com/US/9803/26/heavens.gate.member/index.html Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 16, 1998 at 19:34:25 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Why'd M cross the street? Message: Here's a new entry over on the EnjoyingTheIdeaofEnjoyingMyLifebyPretendingtoBeSimplerthanForrestGump site: I have just learned of the existence of this site and I am glad it's happening. I have read a couple of the life stories and they are fun to read. Maybe some humor would be also a good idea. Humour! Now that's an idea. Maybe we can help: What did the one spiritual conman say to the other spiritual conman? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 16, 1998 at 16:22:15 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Brainwashing Message: I found an interesting link on the web today concerning brainwashing techniques. Read the section on the 'Six Conversion Techniques' and see if you don't agree with me that every one of them applies to K-sessions (then and now) and video events (aspirant indoctrination). Here's the link: www.ctyme.com/bwash/bwash.htm#e I don't know who Dick Sutphen is, but he sure has it right. Also, kinda funny: The organization that he fronts for is called 'Dynamic Living Media' D.L.M...... he he he ENJOY ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 17, 1998 at 18:27:35 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Mike Subject: Brainwashing Message: Dear Mike, Thanks! I just read the first few sections. It is excellent. I've already bookmarked it and am going right back to it. I hope everyone reads it. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 12:13:05 (EDT)
From: steven Email: None To: Mike Subject: Brainwashing Message: go to a local video event.walk in sit down a be quiet.do not talk to anyone.just watch.you will be amazed that all the old days are gone.let it go.Don't you see?You are the slave?You can not get past your thoughts to practice this simple gift.Forget about the premies.If you do not like it WALK! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 12:43:15 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: steven Subject: The new buzzword Message: I see the new attitude has percolated down to even the lowliest premies such as steven (Why no caps for yourself, steven? A little low on self esteem, perhaps?): If you don't like it--WALK! The BM must have his portfolio and his Swiss bank accounts well ordered. A PREDICTION: The Slugmeister BM pulls the plug on the whole shootin' match and retires with his millions $ and a few slaves into oblivion--SOON! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 18, 1998 at 13:31:57 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Gerry Subject: The new buzzword Message: ' A PREDICTION: The Slugmeister BM pulls the plug on the whole shootin' match and retires with his millions $ and afew slaves into oblivion--SOON!' What a gorgeous thought, quickly displaced by another- 'To instantly be replaced by another mystic loneranger or new-age adspeak person in the spiritual market place. We all move on, to be replaced by another bunch of people with big hearts, mouths wide-open, waiting for the hook to drop.' On another topic, thanks for the NLP quote elsewhere. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 20:15:27 (EDT)
From: Diz Email: None To: Gerry Subject: The new buzzword Message: And what a lovely new buzzword it is too! Just resplendent with love - NOT! 'If you don't like it, take a WALK!' What would you think if I used this line on my kids if they had a problem with the way I was handling things around our household, or in our relationship? Unfortunately, I think this gem shows MJ's true colours only too well - and I'm still close enough to feel hurt by it! Maharaji, I did enjoy Knowledge. I stuck around trying to rationalise the doubts I had for many many years. You see, you said you loved me. Hey, I've fallen for that one before. You said the love was all on the inside. It surely was - and I, for one, needed it on the outside, too. I wanted a human relationship with you, dill that I was. I hung out for that. I wanted to tell you about the harm I had seen happen on the OUTSIDE, the 'side-effects' of some of the things you said and premies believed, to work with you to fix things. Your response? To take a WALK! Well I have. I guess you're pleased (or you would be, if you even knew I existed, which you undoubtedly don't). What an end to what was supposed to be a love affair. I don't say you left me. I did indeed leave you. I guess I understood, eventually, that our differences were too great, that my understanding of what was important in life - honesty, open two-way communication, trying to sort out problems, human worldly love and kindness - were not what you saw as important. I do want to enjoy life. I do enjoy it. It isn't the incredible cosmic vision you painted, it's something much more humble. And I like it that way. Did we ever have a relationship? Not one of the sort I wanted and needed, if you were going to be my 'best friend', or even any sort of friend. I don't have friends who get up on stages and lecture me. I talk with my friends. BIG difference. Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 20, 1998 at 10:10:29 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Diz Subject: The new buzzword Message: Hi, Diz. It's too bad that what you have to say to M, may or may not ever get to him. He may check into the forum and come across your post and he may not. If he does, I doubt it's going to make much of an impression. He only cares about people who say 'thank you'. So many times at video presentations, I would hear him talk about those premies who say 'thank you', in little notes they send to him, on their dying bed, all he wants to hear is 'thank you'. Otherwise, he's got no time for you. I wonder what a shrink would say about that? All this guy wants to do is grin and talk about how people say 'thank you' to him all the time. I guess he gets off on it. What a sorry sap, eh? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Oct 21, 1998 at 09:55:52 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Diz Subject: The new buzzword Message: Diz, I just want to add, that even though Maharaji is probably deaf to your sentiments, I heard what you said. It was nicely stated. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 20, 1998 at 13:42:16 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Diz Subject: Thank You, Diz Message: Diz: That was wonderful. JW Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 20, 1998 at 23:25:06 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Diz Subject: The new buzzword Message: Oh Diz, You just out-grew him, way out-grew him. You don't need a spiritual director, girl. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 10:48:02 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: steven Subject: Brainwashing Message: Steven: I already did 'walk.' Tell me, if you can, how many people, after over 25 years of practice, are fully-realized souls? (hint: NONE!) How LONG will it take for you to 'realize' that you have been duped and that this 'gift' has cost you alot more than a few dollars? I practiced this 'gift' earnestly and honestly for over 10 years and got NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING from the experience except alot of time wasted. Don't you EVEN attempt to tell me, or anyone else on this forum, that we didn't practice it well/long enough. If you remove your lips from M's butt long enough, you will see how arrogant your statement is, too! - 'The old days are gone' ?????? I don't think so. The mind-numbing techniques used to brainwash YOU haven't changed a bit. They're not even as sophisticated as they were when I was initiated. Heck, at least they went to the trouble of explaning how it 'all fit' into every religion on earth. Now they just tell you it's 'so beautiful' and YOU fall for it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 12:26:37 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Mike Subject: Brainwashing Message: They're not even as sophisticated as they were when I was initiated. Not so sure. I've watched a recent video with a friend of mine who's never been into the cult: she says m is very professional as a speaker, and that he very likely took course for prof speakers, specially he's excellent at gesture, and he never learned this by himself. Except for prof actors, there are almost no speaker as good as him in this field. And there is no grace involved as it looks like. She found his gesture excellent and very convincing, even though his 'message' was absolute vacuum. Do you remember his gesture 20 years ago? none almost. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 13:37:29 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jean-Michel and Mike Subject: Brainwashing Message: I have to agree with JM here, Mike. The BM has slicked up his bag of tricks considerably. I'll bet he has had a LOT of professional advice and training from the best people in the field, no doubt. Of course he can afford it. Witness the tight control of information and the new jargon of knowledge lite as well as the attempts to hide his past. This guy has been primed heavily. This is why I think we need to go on the offensive against this greasy fraud as he is getting slipperier all the time. (I have a plan for a phase one-Internet blitz, BTW. I'm working on a ''secret weapon'' to bombard the net with the facts about BM. Call it the ''Truth Bomb'' if you will...) I liked the Dick Sutphen article The Battle for Your Mind. Sutphen should know. He uses these tricks to cash in on people's gulliblity himself. He's sucking the new age group for money, his wife channels and They does new age realize yourself bullshit seminars and books. I know, I was disappointed to find this out too. I read his article a couple of years ago then did a web search on him... Really gotta check things out closely these days. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 14:04:54 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Brainwashing Message: Gerry: Now that's funny! Well, take the best and ignore the rest, I guess. I didn't want to send people to another cult.... jeeeezzzz! What is funny, is the fact that he put his 'formula' on the net. Hey, let me know about your 'truth bomb'.... I want to see it go off (I like things that go boom.... he he he). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 18:51:33 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Another opinion Message: JM, I really disagree with your friend. Maharaji might have picked up a few gestures over the years (all I can recall is that scene in Satguru Has Come: 'This knowledge is so perfect you got up, up, infinitely up' and a few effete finger-waggings). But that's nothing special given the time he's had to watch Anthony Robbins (another snake-oil salesman all over American TV). I'd say Maharaji is a terrible public speaker. He has an outrageously bad voice, terrible diction and a marginal grasp of the English language. He's never focused for any length of time. We'll never know if he's able to present complex concepts in any passing fashion -- obvious reasons. So what's left? A nice stage set-up, a nice suit and accessories, an extremely captive and forgiving audience and a sense of self-importance that milks the premies' adulation shamelessly. I think the only real test of Maharaji as a public speaker would be out of the cult arena. Think he can express himself well? Put him on a soapbox at speaker's corner in Hyde Park. Think he's funny? Put him on stage at your local Comedy Club. No, I really don't think so. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 21:33:30 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Anthony Robbins Message: Lest anyone equate Tony Robbins with NLP, he was sued (and had to pay) for his appropriation of bits and pieces of Richard Bandler's life work. If you ask 'real NLPers' what they think about Tony, they will usually say ''he's a great marketer.'' Snake oil peddler applies just fine here. BTW, Tony did a few sessions with the Prez. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 20, 1998 at 03:47:42 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jim Subject: Another opinion Message: I agree with you too! He is terrible and boring, BUT he's also using some good preofessionnal tricks and trainings that are seemingly very effective on naive audience. Maybe he's not very good in ALL of the videos, but the one I've watched the other day with my friend was excellent for the mimics and the gesture. And I had a feeling of absolute uselessness, vacuum, void and emptiness from what he said. He was speaking for 1 hour saying NOTHING, but introducing some very destructive concepts of his own. One or 2 sentences were very loaded the rest was zero. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 20, 1998 at 11:11:15 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Another opinion Message: Okay, JM, I'll agree with you too. Not just because it's so important for us to present a united, clear, simple (and preferably brief) voice in face of the heart attack coming from the EnjoyingTeletubby site. No, I'm agreeing with you just for the hell of it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Oct 20, 1998 at 13:58:49 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Another opinion - I Agree Message: When I saw a couple of his recent videos, I was shocked at how LITTLE he has learned when it comes to grammar, public speaking techniques, and even his English skills suck, even after all these years! And he isn't even cute anymore, which he kinda was as a teenager. What did the press call him? Cerubic? He ain't no more! He looks like he's had a kinda hard life, spiced with a lot of alcohol. Plastic surgery may be next, if it hasn't happened already. No, I think what people see as profundity and style is becuase he is very comfortable speaking in front of people, and that comes across, as long as it's mostly in front of people who adore and won't question him, which is all he ever does and will lap up whatever drivel he spouts without comment. That confidence should be expected from someone who has been doing that since he was 2. I think he has absolute confidence when he speaks at a program, but as anyone who has worked on one of his programs will know, he requires absolute control over the setting, timing and all the rest, with an almost anal-retentive obsession to detail. I remember him getting really pissed, for example, if a program started a few minutes late, and always demanded to know exactly where he will walk, what the setup will be, etc, and his servants check out everything in detail in advance. I think he needs that to maintain his confidence. I recall even for an ashram meeting in Miami, among people who were so programmed they were devoting their lives to him in poverty, celibacy and obedience, a squad of his servants came and checked out everything in advance. When he sat on his throne and it was broken, he looked really flustered, afraid even, and I could tell he just hated that feeling of not being in control. It took him awhile to get his composure back, and he was really incoherent until he did. Come to think of it, he was pretty incoherent after that, too. Despite a few threats and a couple of jokes, I usually never recalled anything he said. I guess because he didn't really say anything. Yes, the content is a vacuum, as JM says. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |