Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 28 | |
From: Oct 30, 1998 |
To: Nov 18, 1998 |
Page: 2 Of: 5 |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 12:43:24 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Prohecies, remember? Message: Excerpt from various DLM's magazines: 'Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.' St. Matthew XVIII, 4 - 5 ++++++++++ « To Him all the words of the Lord shall be revealed. And he shall execute, a righteous judgement upon the earth for a multitude of days. And his star shall arise in heaven as of a king, lighting up the Light of Knowledge, as the sun the day. And He Shall be magnified in the world. He shall shine forth as the sun on The earth, and shall remove all darkness from under heaven, and there shall be peace in all the earth. » ' - Testament of Levi +++++++++++++ Arise, O Jerusalem and stand upon the height, And look about thee toward the east. And behold thy children, gathered from the going down of the sun unto the arising thereof. (At the Word of the Holy One) Rejoicing that God hath remembered them. - Book of Baruch For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given and the government shall be upon His shoulder; and His Name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of this government there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, His Kingdom, to order it and to establish it with judgement and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall perform this. - Isaiah 9:6 +++++ And His star shall arise in the heaven as of a king, Lighting up the Light of Knowledge, as the sun the day, And He shall be magnified in the world, He shall remove all darkness from under heaven, And there shall be peace in all the earth, The heavens shall exult His days, The clouds shall rejoice, And the earth shall be glad, And the Knowledge of the Lord shall be poured forth upon the earth as the water of the seas. - Testament of Levi ++++++++ « The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid ; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together ; and a little child shall lead them… They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea. -Isaiah XI : 6 :9 +++++++++ « But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth ; for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. -St John IV : 23 What is this child worshipping business about? Wasn't this so seducing, and the little baby so lovely? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 13:04:35 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: (Prophecies) the BEST one! Message: 'I swear on the Bible that I will establish peace in this world.' Divine Light Volume 2, No 6, Page 5 Published by Divine Light Mission Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 13:26:02 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: (Prophecies) the BEST one! Message: That IS the best one. So good in fact I couldn't resist submitting it to the 'Wit and Wisdom' page over on ELK: ''I swear on the Bible that I will establish peace in this world.' Divine Light Volume 2, No 6, Page 5 Published by Divine Light Mission I thought you guys could put this up on your Wit and Wisdom page. It's a good quote, don't you think? Clear, strong and simple to understand. You DO have the courage to publish it, don't you? By the way, why won't you answer my earlier emails about censorship? It's obvious beyond question that your 'editing' has little to do with clarity and everything to do with making all your premies sound like homogenized cheese slices. Where's the mould, brothers and sisters? Really, I don't know how you can live with yourselves. But then, Jonathan, it seems like you've made a living out of lying to people, haven't you? Why stop now? More sincerely than you deserve, Jim' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 16:02:57 (EST)
From: Boris Email: Montreal.quebec@usa.net To: Jim Subject: (Prophecies) the BEST one! Message: Jim. I don't believe too many of those false superstitions. I try to believe only true superstitions. One of those I may never part with says something like 'As you sow, so shall you reap.' If my superstition proves right, I fear the guy has started to go through tremendous pain, you needn't worry. Then again, if my superstition proves right, I have to avoid wishing him harm. My solution is to wish he gets what he bargained for. No more, but no less. Boris (which is an alias. You know me. We lived in Ottawa's ashram on McLaren street. No, not Annie Wood. No, not Jean-Paul. You're allowed two more tries. Let me give you a clue. I'm awful good looking, bright and humble.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 19:47:43 (EST)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Boris Subject: (Prophecies) the BEST one! Message: Boris, I like where you're coming from, but: 'As you sow, so shall you reap.' is bollocks. That's the 'law' of Karma, and it's crap. What does it say about life in Honduras, right now? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 20:53:02 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Boris Subject: (Prophecies) the BEST one! Message: Boris (which is an alias. You know me. We lived in Ottawa's ashram on McLaren street. No, not Annie Wood. No, not Jean-Paul. You're allowed two more tries. Let me give you a clue. I'm awful good looking, bright and humble.) Male or female? You're not ... what was the name of our community co-ordinator when I first got transferred there with Stuart McDougall? Claire, was it? A vestige from the earlier matriarchal period of DLM. Actually, I kind of liked her but you couldn't be her -- obvious reasons. Shit! Who else was there? Really.... 'awful good looking'? Still?! Really? See I too am awful good-looking even still. It's funny we haven't bumped into each other. No, I give up. But don't tell me. Give me another clue. BTW, do you remember when Raja Ji and Claudia came to town and stayed at the Chateau Laurier? We tried to turn the ashram into a three star (Michelin score) restaurant for them? Ha ha ha! You know who I miss sometimes? Amory. Any idea what happened to him? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 12, 1998 at 00:35:11 (EST)
From: Boris Email: Montreal... To: Jim Subject: (Prophecies) the BEST one! Message: Not a clue what has become of the dwarf. Last I heard he still was with Carmen. I spoke with Claire over the phone a couple weeks ago. She remembered me. She still translates. She was attacked for her purse coming out of satsang a few years ago and had her skull fractured. She still is handicapped in some way since the incident. Stuat was - and chances are, still is - a prick. I ain't him, thank... luck. Need a clue? Look on the 'White pages'. Now, be discreet. You really are brainless. Maybe you jerked too much while in the ashram. That have you forget my highness. Come-on now. There is no reason you wouldn't make the connection by now. Stop using hard drugs for an hour or so. Here you go again: Your eyelids are heavy. You feel an irresistible urge to remember. I slept in the master bedroom. There was that indian looking girl. There was a jewish girl from Toronto and that tall blond beauty also from Toronto who used to know how to run some guys nuts. There was that guy afflicted with epilepsy you invited once and you thought you needed to rescue from the bathroom. There was that tall teenager who ended-up making candles for a living. He burned himself. There was that jewish boy who always sang the same tune. He tought he knew how to play guitar. Oups. That was you. Got it now? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 12, 1998 at 02:01:18 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Boris Subject: Hey, I got it! Message: Hey, Boris, It just took a little help from my friends (and INTERPOL). Okay, I've got it now. Anyway, Amory's still with Carmen? Pshaw! And Claire? Really, that's terrible. What city's she in? But I got new for you, Boris. As far as I remember you were the only guy I ever knew smitten by that 'tall blond beauty'. I remember. Know what I remember, actually? I remember going to your apartment once -- after you'd left the Lord's shelter, the Hamster's Den -- and seeing that you two had a copy of The Joy of Sex< on your bookshelf. Hey man, that was heavy for me. No, I rarely played with myself in the ashram. I bet I could count the number of times I succumbed to Satan on one hand. Well, one hand for Ottawa anyway. So what do you do these days? And Andre Berube? And how about Snagglepus? Rememjber Greg Kettles? An apostate premie who came back on the scene around 76 who thought he kind of was Maharaji or something. You'd already devolved into a common community premie then but Greg would walk up to the ashram (in Ottawa South) and start kicking at the door. Relentlessly, robotically. We called the cops who came and took him away to some other part of town. He walked back and started trying to kick his way in again. Then we were all getting ready to board the bus for Montreal to fly to Rome. Greg had tried to sell the centre's piano to buy a ticket. Scottie stopped that but Greg threatened that if he didn't have a ticket... well, something would happen. We're talking tall, steely-eyed, cool, crazy. I remember telling Scottie that this guy was nuts and it looked like we had a bit of a situation on our hands. Then, jsut as we were boarding the news came that Greg had died. Some said spontaneous aneurism. Me, I kind of doubted that. Were you around then? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 13, 1998 at 11:35:21 (EST)
From: Boris Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hey, I got it! Message: Hey, Jimmy boy. Slip me some skin. Gimme five (hundred bucks, of course). I knew you wouldn't find it all by yourself. You probably sent your synapses to the cleaner to have it brainwashed again. Wether Amory and Carmen are still together is not for me to say. I speculate he must be in his mid-forties now and probably recently went through mid-life crisis. He may have left her for a younger chick who made him feel immortal. Most of us do. I didn't. I was pushed off the edge in 1988. It was a girl who lived in the ashram for a short period in 1977. You tought getting involved with DLM was bad. Be consoled. Getting married to her was the pits. I have to dig if I want to go lower than this. Just to give you a hint, she has access to legal aid and asked an alimony to feed her cat. This must have been unheard of in the canadian judiciairy system. You think I'm pulling your leg? That this is impossible? I swear on the Reader's Digest bible it is true. You know the way lawyers sometimes... oups, sorry. We had two kids. 13 and 18 now. I hear from them once a month, a few days before the check is due and may see them at Christmas. The pits, I’m saying. Right now, I’m in the process of selling the house we once all lived in. I have been all by myself here for sometime now. When I’m with my seady date, my sister loves to mention the time I was devoted to that Moon guy. The steady date gets worried I’d lack judgement to that point. I wish my sister would mind her own flaking business. I think she does it on purpose to humiliate me as if I hadn’t paid enough already. How I sometimes wish she'd choke herself. As far as the 'tall blond beauty' is concerned, you are dead wrong: she played her teasing number on everyone it could have effect upon and then some including Greg and myself again when we last met in 1996. Do not worry, I did not fall for none of it then. I had been through it already. For the short period we lived together in 1976, there was no sex to be joyous about. At least, in the ashram, I had hope of, one day, getting some. Then niet, none, negative. On weekends, she used to take the bus and spend a couple of days with another guy in Montreal. How is this for a couple who had just moved together after two years of yearning? The funny part is this : last year, someone got in touch with me to know more about the cult. He had gotten my name from this site. He was having an affair with a premie married to another premie and wanted to understand the nonsensical dogma she was pouring on him. The lover was this other guy’s wife. Read more about it in the ‘Journey’page’. I still have the same copy of Joy Of Sex on my bookshelf. You didn’t think then it would ever be, but it is outdated. A museum piece where it is said you can get VDs (we now call those STDs) from dirty folks. I should lock this in a safe. Someone could die from reading this. Another book that kills. After Umberto Eco and ‘The name of the rose’, here comes Alex Comfort with ‘the Joy Of Sex’. Andre Berube. He is Carmen’s brother. He must be retired now. He had been in the army for years doing work he wasn’t allowed to talk about. You know, cold war and radars in the artic. I remember I was told the piano incident. I tell the story once in awhile of a guy I knew who sold a piano he did not own which was in a house that wasn’t his. A bit like selling the Eiffel tower, ain’t it? I was looking the other way already then. You had kindly invited me for the Sunday brunch at the divine hamster wheel and Phil Dacosta looked down on me and asked me why I had come for a free meal. I was embarrased. I had been invited. That must have been my last visit there. Then there was the foxy tall beauty who had moved out on me and was having a fling with Greg, the nutcase. I always believed he had commited suicide. I was at University pursuing a degree in communications. A few years later, I got another one in computer sciences applied to management. I remember November 15th 1976. It was election day. Rene Levesque was to become prime minister that day. Everyone was hyper. It was raining. I went to her place. She wasn’t alone. My bicycle slid on wet leaves. My right hand was bleeding. The professor jokingly asked if I had gotten into a fight with some political ennemies. I wasn’t amused. I was in pain. That may be why I remember the day so vividly. What was Snagglepus? It sounds like something Amory would have made-up. P.S.: It has started. I lost a friend this morning. The girl I was in college with in 1972 and introduced me to the divine-hamster-wheel. I can't say the deal is bad. She says I'm too negative and should respect premies's choice and intimacy with the guru. Hell. If I was to be wrong, no one would have be disturbed by another nutcase. (remember, 'a degree in communications'. I once dreamt of journalism.) Right? This is getting to be fun. I think I'll have Boston beans and go to satsang. Boris (this was Boris' last post) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 13, 1998 at 10:37:38 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Satanic Verses Message: Yeah, but but I'm sure whatever baby they were talking about was not a fat greasy money grubber like GM. He is NOT holy in the least.Why oh why how could I have possibly thought so?. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 12:14:48 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Jonestown, anyone? Message: I only saw the last twent minutes of the A&E speical on Jonestown last night. I thought I knew about all they could tell us, having followed the situation as closely as I could when it happened. Boy, was I wrong! They had actual footage of the compound with Jones' voice superimposed covering the last hours there. In some ways this was the most chilling thing I've ever seen. And there, in the centre of it all, the cult leader's 'soothing' words. The CIA connection is pretty fascinating too. Anyone know anything about this Dwyer guy? P.S. for a good laugh check out Bruce's latest over on the premie forum. He's justifying the ELK format, explaining how great it is to be able to post safe from ridicule -- hey, Bruce, yo' mama wears army boots! -- and disputing Golden Oldie's complaint that the ELK folk censor heavily. Bruce, you idiot, they censor so heavily there I bet you could probably submit something and wouldn't even recognize it in print if it didn't have your name on it. It's obvious. Just check out the speech patterns and jargon. Everyone sounds the same there, man. Can't you see that? You know, I've tried to discuss this a couple of times with the ELKies themselves but they won't bother to reply. Oh well. You make your bed, you lie in it. Hey, maybe I should submit THAT to the Wit and Wisdom page. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 16:26:03 (EST)
From: Boris Email: montreal.quebec@usa.net To: Jim Subject: Jonestown, anyone? Message: During the mass suicide, I was attending Hans Jayanti in Orlando Fla. When I showed-up at work, the following week, a co-worker told me she had been worried that's where I had spent the previous week. I now know she was right to worry. My bet is the game ain't over until the game is over. Anything could still happen. You may very well brush it away with the back of your hand and pretend there's no danger, that everything is different here. Then again, that's certainly what those people did at the time. Whoever survived certainly regrets not having acted on his intuition. Giving that much power to anyone has to be dangerous. Even when sober, the guy is dangerous. I went to London for Hans Jayanti in 1972. I distinctly remenber there was a girl called Joan Apter who taught the crowd to throw their hands up while shouting 'Ki jay'. In the parking lot, afterwards, I remember an older frenchman who probably had lived through the war and was saying how much this reminded him or Hitler's way of manipulating a crowd. I felt sorry the poor chap couldn't understand. I wonder what has become of Joan Apter. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 18:18:48 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Boris Subject: Jonestown, anyone? Message: Joan Apter is alive and kicking, posting maudlin comments on enjoyinglife.com. She's still regretting she has desires for anything other than Maharaji, from what I can tell. The only time I ever really connected the Jonestown disaster with Maharaji, was in the ashram meeting at Kissimmee in 1979, when he talked about getting land in Florida where we would live. He even said they had located a site. Although there had always been this idea of a 'divine city,' this was the first time I heard M be so specific. That scared me. Plus, aside from the weird trips that would go on in a place like that, can you imagine living in some bug-infested swamp in Florida? One thing I didn't like about the earlier format of this website was a reference to Jonestown on the home page. I just don't think what happened in Jonestown and what Maharaji does are really comparable. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 15:53:55 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: Jonestown, anyone? Message: I just don't think what happened in Jonestown and what Maharaji does are really comparable. Maybe not in the effect but surely in the process. Joe, if you ever get a chance to see that piece watch it. Then tell me what you naturally, STRONGLY think about as you hear Jones give that final gloss and guarantee to his followers. Listen, this IS a death trip! Sure, farmers keep some of their chickens cooped up for the eggs and slaugher others outright for their legs but in either case they're depriving them of life. (I know I'm being a little hyperbolic here but hell, it's rememberance day [veteran's day].) Maharaji once bragged about how a good premie was one who could look in a mirror and see a grey, wizened face and simply wonder where their life had gone. The idea was that proper and complete immersion in the holy name, total 'surrender' (a mythical state we once sought relentlessly), would supplant the normal realm of personal experience and, as he explained, memory. In essence, a life unlived. A life 'returned to sender' as an expression of love. As he explained one other time, a good devotee was like a burnt match. Then there was his ghoulishly frightening fixation on the importance of one's last breath. Everything was in preparation for that moment of ultimate importance, the moment a premie's entire life of satsang, service and meditation would be fulfilled or negated by mistrust and selfishness. If that doesn't make for a death trip, what does? Granted, it's a different kind of death trip than Jonestwon but, like I say, if you get a chance to hear Jones exhorting his 'loved ones' to trust him, to not be left behind, to come and die (surrender?), certain parallels come to mind rather forcefully. After all, what's death anyway in the face of the Lord of Creation? A test? An opportunity? Just one more 'expression of love'? Hooweee!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 16:09:14 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jonestown, anyone? Message: Hi Jim, I wish I'd seen that documentary. Probably wouldn't have been able to get it here in the sticks, but would have liked to. There was a really good article on Jonestown a few years ago in the New Yorker and I found it distinctly chilling. If it's possible to find, I encourage the exes to read it. Another ex-premie friend of mine was quite affected by it - in fact, she saved the article in a file folder she had for her old DLM stuff because it reminded her so much of the Florida DLM days. I DON'T think that that's where M's headed now, although when all the premies were moving to Florida, talking about buying land, etc., it was a little scary. However, I don't think M would give up the good life now unless he was forced to. Dead devotees don't bring in any cash. P.S. Concrete Blonde had a great song about Jonestown, complete with out-takes from Jim Jones, on 'Mexican Moon'. I recommend it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 16:19:50 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jonestown, anyone? Message: I agree that the process probably is comparable, but it really ends there. It's more likely a matter of degree and physical opportunity. I didn't see the A&E program, but I did see one NBC did a couple of weeks ago, and because of the connection to the Bay Area, the SF Examiner has been running a series of front-page articles this week. Maharaji has said a lot of stuff. Stupid stuff. And he should be held accountable for the stuff he said to the extent it damaged people. I clearly remember the 'burnt match' reference. [I can even see in my mind the gesture he made when he said it.] And Maharaji is definitely exhibiting some paranoia these days (what he said in India qualifies if you ask me), but not anything like Jones and the physical situation is so different. With no ashrams, or even initiators, and since Maharaji has never really given enough of a shit about the premies to actually have contact with the vast majority of them, it makes it really different from Jones, who was personally involved with his followers, had exhibited sadistic behavior years previously, etc. So, generically, it's the same process, and I have no doubt that if M moved in that direction a bunch of premies would follow him, but that would have to be a gradual process, and I haven't seen any evidence that that is what he is doing. But we should watch Amaroo and that place he's got in Argentina. If premies started living there, I'd be worried. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 17:33:20 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: I agree Message: Joe, I agree with all you say. I tihnbk we understand each other clearly enough here. I'm simply saying that, at some point, mind control looks like mind control no matter where you take it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 12, 1998 at 14:56:01 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Jonestown Massacre Message: I watched the A&E Jonestown Massacre show the other night--the tape of Jim Jones during the suicide and the pictures of the children were shocking, chilling, incredibly sad, and unbelievable! Like Jim, I think the CIA connection is intriguing. I was at Hans Jayanti when it happened, and when I got back, my relatives called to make sure I was okay. (After all that satsang I gave them, you'd think they'd know to which cult I belonged!) I agree, it was a different trip than we were on, but as the cliche states: There but for the grace of God go I. Oh now wait a minute, what's the atheist cliche for this? Well, anyway, my point is that I was ripe for the picking. I just happened to run into a premie before I ran into Jim Jones or Bo and Peep. With love, eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 12, 1998 at 14:32:46 (EST)
From: Boris Email: None To: JW Subject: Jonestown, anyone? Message: What is enjoyinglife.com? What is ELK? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 21:09:56 (EST)
From: RT Email: mmmmm To: Everyone Subject: Sat Song: Come All You :) Message: Read this Sat-Song to the tune of 'Come All Ye' By The Fairport Convention, from the Liege and Leif Album, 1969 A&M records,(features Sandy Denny on vocals. I like her voice.) Dedicated to Webmasters Brian and Katie for their efforts in venerating, maintaining and deploying www.ex-premie.org. Come All You Scrolling Minstrels Come All You Scrolling Minstrels, And together we will try To douse the Cult for all it's worth And tell Maharaji Bye! Those that doubt will Just Say Know; Wake up, no more Arti In time we'll list Maha-misdeeds What Tools These Premies Be! So, Come All You Scrolling Minstrels For now the time is ripe: Let's browse the Cult for all it's worth, Nyet-scape the Master's Hype! Ah, Premies, the peace that is within Is timeless and it's good, But videos play weird 'prem-ories' I'd erase mine - if I could! So, Come All You Scrolling Minstrels And together we will type To bury the Cult for all its worth: Hear lies the Master's hype. All Sat Gurus have a script, For the kingdom within me Speak basic truths and slip in lies Brainwashed co-dependency. So, Join All the Scrolling Minstrels And together we can't fail To de-louse the Cul-tick from the Earth, Take wind from Prem Pal's sale. Plug your ears and hear a hum, - Wait! Guru quotes Kabir... to keep them all under the thumb of mystery and fear! So, Join All the Scrolling Minstrels And together we will damn: Expose the Cult for all it's worth. The Lyin' lies with the Scam. Well, this 'devotion' is illogical, (He needs for house and plane) I served 10 years, I recommend: Drop out with *holy name*! So, Come All Ye Lurking Minstrels It's better to Resign Than walk a path so full of IT, So Guilty of Thought Crime. +++ Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 22:17:32 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: RT Subject: Sandy Denny Fever Message: Bravo, RT. That really takes me back. Sigh. Sandy Denny had the most hauntingly beautiful voice. Last night driving home from the country, there was a Joni Mitchell retrospective on NPR. They played the original female singer (before Sandy Denny) from Fairport COnvention singing 'Both SIdes Now.' Her voice was not t\very good, (IMHO) Nothing like Sandy's I like that phrase 'scrolling minstrels' Yeah, that's it, we're artists, yeah, we're Scrolling minstrels! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 00:24:47 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: RT Subject: Thanks for the dedication! Message: Thanks for the dedication, RT! A novel experience for me, although I'm sure Brian has had songs dedicated to him by women all over the country (I'm kidding, Brian! Really!!) Anyway, I really appreciate it, and the song is wonderful as always. Long may you run! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 20:38:12 (EST)
From: RT Email: mmmmmmm To: Katie Subject: Thanks for the dedication! Message: U R welcome. Joys are us. RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 06:07:51 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Maharaji and dangerous places Message: This post actually relates to Jim’s thread below and that quote from the second edition of enjoyingcultlife.org ‘s ‘Hans Jayanti from the Frontline’ that was posted today, but I actually think that this subject deserves its own thread, so here it is. Firstly, when I read M's spiel about ‘money’ and his old man’s tireless and selfless efforts to spread K, it made me extremely angry (as I know it did a number of you) considering its obvious hypocrisy, but it also brought up for me what I think is an extremely valid point, and one that was highlighted to me recently - by of all people, a non-premie. After I got back from travelling I spoke to a friend of mine, an old hippie who has been around premies all her life (including my ex) but has managed to avoid them converting her due to what she terms her resilient ‘bullshit-o-meter’. Anyway we were speaking about premies we knew, and she told me that she was amazed at a recent conversation she had with this premie after he had found out that M’s recent gig had been cancelled in Malaysia. She knew that it had to do with the recent unrest in Malaysia, not to mention the publicity in Oz about Dr M’s crack-down on alternative religions (read ‘cults’), but this premie thought it had nothing to do with that, and was some amazing ‘coincidence’ that M had decided to cancel that event. Anyway, she said she almost threw up the way this premie went on and on, as though it was some sort of ‘divine intervention’ that prevented Maharaji going to Malaysia, and thus his Master’s life was spared from any danger, and yet at the time she was thinking ‘Hang on. Why’s this guy, who once proclaimed he was going to bring peace to the world, not going to a place because its suddenly become a bit dodgey? Shouldn’t he be going anyway? What’s he afraid of? And I thought, yeah bloody good point!! I once remember my ex telling me that Maharaji stopped going to Fiji after the coup there, after the native Fijians got a bit gnarley that Indians controlled most of Fiji, the businesses etc, and thus ousted many of the Indians from ‘places of power’. Right or wrong the Fijians may have been, but why did that affect M’s itinerary - they weren’t killing Indians, just rearranging the infrastructure on the island a bit! Not ideal, but as history has shown, it’s been a relative violence-free transition! Anyway, my ex told me that M wasn’t interested in going to places that were ‘dangerous’. Being a brainwashed premie, I just accepted this without question. But hang on! If ever there was a time when Fijian premies needed to see their Master and know that life wasn’t about politics or the ‘world outside’, it was at this time! Come on Maharaji. Don’t crap on about you and your dad making these great personal sacrifices to spread Knowledge (walking on foot, going without air conditioning). You talk at length about taking Knowledge to the people, to those people wherever they are, who are thirsty, but you don’t! You are so fucking selective!! And all you really care about, by evidence of your actions, is cushioning and keeping safe your lardy arse! Just because there is sudden unrest in Malaysia, does that mean there are suddenly less premies? No. Just because there is unrest in Malaysia, is your life in jeopardy? Possibly, but isn’t that the risk any great Perfect Master takes in order to SPREAD HIS MESSAGE. So don’t come the raw prawn with me Maharaji, you fuck! Come clean you hypocritical fraud! And I hope to God premies wake up enough to see that you don’t make any sacrifices at all to do what you say you do! Go without airconditioning? Travel all night? BIG FUCKING DEAL! Why not go to where there are ‘thirsty’ people? Why not go to the real frontline Maharaji! Go to Bosnia! Go to Algeria! Go to Iraq! Go on! I DARE YOU! Regards, an extremely pissed off TeeDee Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 09:45:40 (EST)
From: David M Email: None To: TD Subject: a possible explanation... Message: ...would be that he does not want to do event in places where there is social unrest because the safety of people who would come to attend the event (people travelling from outside the country) would also be at stake. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 10:13:56 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: David M Subject: a possible explanation... Message: Hey, this was the guy who was going to make the Ramayana look like Noddy. This was the Lord who had come with more power than ever before. This was the guy who said he could make everyone in the world turn blue and float three feet off the ground, if he wanted to. We're talking about God in human form with all 64 yogic powers, here. We're talking about the 'father' who would not stand by and let his child crawl into the fire. Have some faith. Surely a little social unrest wouldn't worry him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 20:39:01 (EST)
From: david m Email: None To: David M Subject: a possible explanation... Message: David.. Is that not what peace...and the spreading of peace is all about. I remember passing out leaflets in some pretty nasty places as welll as niceones... meditating on the word would take care of all of that any ....hey just a thought...dave Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 08:16:24 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: David M Subject: Maharaji's concern for premies Message: I would love to think that Maharaji cared about the safety of people coming to his events, and maybe he does on a large scale (after all he certainly wouldn't want the bad publicity if a whole lot of premies got zapped coming to an event because of local unrest), but I'd really love to see some evidence of that - and not just 'hear' about all the so-called things M does. My ex once told me that apparently M had offered to fly all the Israeli premies out of Israel before the Gulf War, but it didn't sound like that ever eventuated. Does anybody know about that? I've also heard of him doing small things for people, like meeting a premie at Amaroo who'd had an anyeurism, or giving an old mahatma a new set of glasses or visiting some old guy in hospital to give him K, but in the scheme of things, I don't think that that is so amazing. After all, it's not as though he's got another job! I was thinking today after my little outburst above (sorry about that emotion by the way - I was tired and did get a bit carried away, plus I have a foul mouth on me, but then you all know that already) about M and what he does/does not do in his role for premies and what sacrifices he makes, and I'm sorry, but he really does do bugger all! Now I'm sure premies will go on and on about how busy he is etc, all the travelling he does, all the people wanting him for this or that event etc, but then I thought, for some reason (!!) about Princess Di. And why I thought about her was I was thinking about other 'well-known' (relative term here!) and not-so-famous people who are committed to a cause or to a message, and whether they avoid 'risky' areas that they would normally go to in the course of their 'work', and it seems the ones who are really committed to their role or their 'purpose' just go and do it. Now maybe, those pickies of Di checking out landmines were a cover for some less righteous agenda she had (Christopher Hitchens - where are you?), but even so, at least she set a good example to people, just as she did by hugging AIDS victims years ago. And another thing about my Di and M comparison - I've been amazed at the stories of how much she kept in contact with people she came into contact with, you know some Aussie disabled kid who met her once at a charity dinner with a hundred other kiddies, but who was chuffed because she got a handwritten card from her a year later. That kind of thing, and I've heard she did that all over the place. Now maybe her backup staff did it all for her, but M has got just as many resources to do the same thing - so no excuse for him there! And besides, M's got a considerably smaller fan club than Di, but do you think he ever sent a card or his condolences to the family of one of those premies who committed suicide, or has he ever attended the funeral of a premie who maybe he'd met, only once, or who maybe was not a mahatma or a rich premie. Has he? I don't know... And another thing. Even if there was a bit of 'unrest', the security that is now in place and provided for M at all his events is so full-on, that he'd almost be better protected than Princess Di! I'm amazed at the effort that goes in to just getting him safely from the airport to his hotel. Premies rehearse the routes for days prior to a visit, there's always a backup car, driver, 3rd person etc, the cars are hired/checked out etc and then out at places like Amaroo, they have security by the truckload - it's ridiculous, but then those feral cows and odd bongo Aussie farmers can be trouble. And a final point. I don't think M has been back to Fiji (I'll be happy to stand corrected) since the coup, and that was years ago, and there is still a lot of Indians in Fiji. It's an extremely safe place to go. I'm sure there are premies still there, and I'm sure they'd appreciate a visit. Regards, a much calmer TeeDee Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 09:17:42 (EST)
From: David M Email: None To: TD Subject: Maharaji's concern for premies Message: Hi TD, Maharaji did offer shelter to the israeli premies during the gulf war (he offered them to either go on the site in India or Australia). He did the same thing for yougoslavian premies during the recent war in that ex-country; some people did take him up on that offer, so you can check further. you can also check that Maharaji has always cancelled events in times of social unrest: Mexico, Kuala Lumpur, etc. he did not go to south africa during the apartheid regime. same thing with Chili during those years of Pinochet regime. wathever his motives are, these are facts. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 13:56:38 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: David M Subject: Maharaji's concern for premies Message: Maharaji did offer shelter to the israeli premies during the gulf war (he offered them to either go on the site in India or Australia). He did the same thing for yougoslavian premies during the recent war in that ex-country; some people did take him up on that offer, so you can check further I would be interested in hearing more about this, because, frankly, it's the first time in 25 years I have ever heard Maharaji actually offered to DO something, on a humanitarian level, for anyone. But even this might be more than meets the eye, and probably a very empty offer. It sounds like he offered a PLACE for premies to go, a very distant place. He didn't offer to actually help get them out of the country. Right? I mean he didn't offer the use of his plane or anything like that, and certainly not offering any MONEY to help them escape. That was the major problem for the refugees in Yugoslavia. It was the problem of getting out of the country, not the lack of a place to go, and especially getting from Yugoslavia to the other side of the world in India or Australia, that would be pretty difficult, if not impossible for most people, so the likelihood that Big M would have very many people showing up was pretty remote. I don't suppose he offered one of those many bedrooms in Malibu for some refugees to live in. And why limit it to premies? And are there any Iraqi premies? Did he offer a place for them to go? I would think they were in a lot more danger than the Israelis were. He also never went into the Soviet bloc prior to the collapse of the Soviet Union, although that probably wouldn't have been very dangerous if he did. And then of course DLM was outlawed in Argentina for a number of years and he didn't go there during that period either. Hell, Maharaji used to think Chicago was filled with gangsters and used to avoid going there, too. I knew people among PAM who used to say that Maharaji was acutally afraid to go there, I think because he saw too many Al Capone and Elliot Ness movies and TV shows. Did he ever go back to Detroit after the pie incident? And what was happening in Mexico to keep him away from there? I'm sure he wasn't planning on going to Chiapas, more likely Puerta Vallarta or Cancun, places with all the best ammenities. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 14:06:57 (EST)
From: David M Email: None To: JW Subject: Maharaji's concern for premies Message: Hi JW, i was just stating the facts as i know them, that is all. it is up to you to interpret it whichever way you chose. Remember: the thread was about Maharaji's concern for premies... (^PS: i think there was also financial help to get people out of their country.) closer to USA, there was also the 'hurricane program' ; the event scheduled in Miami was cancelled because of a hurricane coming that way. buses were chartered to take everyone north to Orlando where a 'mini event' was held. this was also out of a concern for people`s safety. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 14:21:54 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: David M Subject: Maharaji's concern for premies Message: Financial help from whom? Specifically, what are you talking about. there was also the 'hurricane program' ; the event scheduled in Miami was cancelled because of a hurricane coming that way. buses were chartered to take everyone north to Orlando where a 'mini event' was held. this was also out of a concern for people`s safety. Yeah, I was at that program but a bit different take on it. Picture it: 1979... Maharaji is raising millions for the Boeing 707 plane being built in Miami. Programs were a big money-maker. A hurricane was heading toward Florida, but the program was NOT cancelled. Thousands of people came to Miami and paid their $70 per-person entrance fee (we are talking 1979, remember). If the concern was really for the premies, the program would have been cancelled entirely before the premies got to Miami and into the path of the hurricane, but of course that would mean the inability to collect almost $1,000,000 in entrance fees, not to mention the thousands and thousands the cult travel agency would lose. This was all very openly discussed among the staff in Miami. But the hurricane kept coming and the Miami Beach civil authorities were suggesting that the Convention Center might be closed down for safety reasons, and also there was a good possibility of losing power and being unable to do the program at all. So, we went to Orlando where Big M gave darshan (collecting more money) and spoke for about 30 minutes in the middle of the night. But then, of course, the hurricane, such as it was, came to Orlando, too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 14:30:33 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: JW Subject: One Other Thing Message: Regarding the money rasing going on in 1979 for the plane. Don't forget that at the time, Maharaji was lying even to the premies and telling them the money was being raised for a 'world tour' not mentioning the plane. Given this outright deception, it isn't surprising that the money-generating aspects of festivals weren't known to the premies either. Oh, and another thing, remember how we used to have those (many) festivals, including that 'Hurrican festival' in Miami Beach in JULY??? In the sweltering heat. Why? Well, partly because we got the convention center for FREE in the off season. More profits that way. This was back in the 70s befor Miami Beach became oh-so-cool as it is now. Miami was willing to give us the hall just for the cash premies dropped into the economy everytime M did a program there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 16:36:43 (EST)
From: David M Email: None To: JW Subject: One Other Thing Message: the hurricane program was held in september (hurricane season!) on the land where they were getting ready for the HJ in november, not in july... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 17:07:37 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: David M Subject: Same Dif. Message: Maybe it was September, come to think of it, but that was the off season in Miami Beach as well, so, same dif. That is strange, though. Also beginning in September, apparently just after the 'hurricane program' M did a tour of the USA, and then did Hans Jayanti a few weeks later. Lots of fundraising. In those years, there was a direct correlation between the amount of cash M was trying to raise, the cost of entrance fees at programs, the number and frquency of programs, and the number of darshan lines. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 14:51:41 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: TD Subject: ANger & survival Message: No need to apologize for angry outbursts, TD. Those if us in Guru trips of all kinds are so programmed about never expressing anger. To that I say: Buggers on it! Anger (& fear too) are adaptive healthy emotions necessary for our SURVIVAL. We sure got a lot of shit poured down our throats about it. And for us women, we were supposed to be sweet unruffled lotus flowers, always in a state of grace. That is so much garbage I can't believe it. Also, while I'm on a roll, disagreement, conflict, and discussion are GOOD. I've seen videos of Italian children having a 'discusione' (sp) They are allowed to be so passionate! We tend to put a clamp on that here in the U.S. So no wonder we're all intimidated about disagreement! -anyway, you hotblooded redhead, you--vent away. I for one like it! Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 18:47:30 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Helen Subject: ANger & survival Message: I like impassioned writing here too, by ex-premies. One thing's for sure; Maharaji is 180 degrees wrong about EVERYTHING and that goes a long, long way. In actual fact, he is so misguided and wrong about everything that if you take the exact opposite of what he says, there is some sense in it. Learn to trust yourself and your own judgement and see that person in the mirror as your friend. Don't tust Maharaji and don't believe a single thing he ever said and see your friends, family and loved ones as very important in your life. Your parents almost certainly did/do love you although the generation gap of the fifties and sixties did cause problems. If people have caused you trouble my their admitted mistakes in the past then rather than never forgive them (as Maharaji says he does) you would be better off to forgive them. Yes, I think I'll start a new cult. It will preach the exact opposite of what Maharaji says. Anyway, Katie if you're there; My full title is Sir David of Cheddar, Lord Protector of the Burning Tree. So now you know! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 20:15:17 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Baloney Message: My full title is Sir David of Cheddar, Lord Protector of the Burning Tree. If I remember correctly, Sir Knight, by your own account you abandoned the Burning Tree, (wisely realizing you would be in deep shit if you didn't, of course). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 20:34:08 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jerry Subject: I've gone to bed Message: but this is my astral self posting. Look Jerry, it looks like my hypnotism is wearing off. Perhaps I'll have to give you the post hypnotic 'trigger'. --My banana is very straight. How is yours?'-- There, that should do it. Hee hee hee. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 20:47:29 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Baloney Message: Perhaps it could be meant to be ironic, if you know what I mean. Hidden meanings and all that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 13:29:03 (EST)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Katie Subject: Origin of Baloney Message: The word 'Baloney' comes from the name of the Italian sausage made in Balogna, Italy. Not many people know that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 12, 1998 at 07:32:23 (EST)
From: KK Email: None To: TD Subject: Maharaji and dangerous places Message: For what it's worth: I was the person primarily responsible for the cancelled post-coup Fiji visit. It occurred because there was no suitable venue, no place to land the plane, no place to stay based on MJ's wish list. I couldn't meet his requests. Also there were not many premies left because they'd fled the country (all premies were Indian and 99% were Gujerati and had been badly affected by the coup). The whole bottom fell out of the cult in Fiji once the Gujeratis weren't there. I spent a lot of time in Fiji including MJ's earlier visit there when I accompanied him. I have a lot os stories about that visit because it was the beginning of my disillusionment. It is a small country and we were thrown together because MJ was very dependent on me and my local knowledge. It wasn't that it was dangerous. More that it was inconvenient. As for Malaysia, again I accompanied MJ there several times. Again it was always a hassle for him. The bottom line is that he prefers to go where this an incident-free supply of ready financial donations. This is foremost. Once he didn't want to go to Taiwan and I pointed out that if he didn't go, they might travel to see him but they certainly wouldn't donate anywhere near the same amount of money that they would if he made a visit there. Guess what? You guessed it. MJ went to Taiwan. I do think that Sri Lanka was a genuine case of danger. But he never really menat to go there anyway. It all comes down to an equation largely comprising $$$$$$. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 12, 1998 at 08:11:14 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: KK Subject: Maharaji and dangerous places Message: Thanks so much for posting this KK! Your post cuts through a lot of my speculation about why things have/have not happened with Maharaji and his going to places like Fiji/Malaysia. The bottom line is that he prefers to go where this an incident-free supply of ready financial donations. This is foremost. And this makes total sense, in light of what he says and where he actually ends up going. The number of satsangs I have heard him say 'Wherever there are thirsty people I will go, and wherever there are thirsty people, they will find me', and yet he has only gone to 'thirsty people' in places that are totally comfortable for him to be in. For other people, I would totally accept this (hell, why risk your life unnecessarily?), but not to someone who keeps flogging this notion that the sole reason they're on this planet is to 'spread this Knowledge'. The reality, as you have clearly observed, appears to be that he isn't really interested in increasing the 'real' numbers of people who have Knowledge, but rather, he's only interested in increasing the number of people with Knowledge who can also contribute financially to his lifestyle/mission. If he was into the former, then he'd be into these troubled areas like a shot, as the sad reality is that in times of strife, many people do look for refuge in quick-fix spirituality. His offer of 100% inner-bliss could be extremely attractive to someone in a place of 'unrest', but thank God for them, he's too self-centred and too chicken-shit to go there in the first place. Regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 13, 1998 at 22:21:33 (EST)
From: bb Email: None To: KK Subject: Maharaji and dangerous places Message: Hi KK, it is always good to read you. whenever you are in the mood feel free to relate the FIji stories that coincided with your disillusionment phase. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 02:21:19 (EST)
From: david m Email: whaler32@aol.com To: Everyone/Gerry Subject: G'ovt mule India 26 yrs ago Message: Hey Gerry.and all.. Just went to a great concert tonight G'ovt Mule excelent music..Gerry .....allen still has the dulcimer.really a good concert....but 26 years ago i stood the parade grounds of Deli India worshiping my LORD..... Man oh Man what hapened....I can;t believe He;s saying the same thing tonight..I saw thousands of indian premies giving all the money they had for DARSHAN...and i thought I was part of something really really special..OH WELL TIME TO WAKE UP.......peace ...dave Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 02:17:50 (EST)
From: Jethro Email: None To: GORDON BYRNE Subject: READ THIS GORDON BYRNE Message: Here is a message to Gordon Byrne who posted his 'life' on EL. Quote 1 from Gordon Byrne(in the EL website) 'However, I remember those early days being considerably different from today. I would even suggest that all of us, were perhaps going a little 'over the top' in our enthusiastic proselytising. I quickly realised my academic reputation might suffer unless I reverted to something resembling my studious former self.' So you decided to become a liar and compromise your own self and integrity. What would you say if one of your student's saw your statement and suggested you were a bullshitter? Quote 2 from Gordon Byrne(in the EL website) 'Obviously I still have to earn a living and if that involves leaving students in a 'better informed state of ignorance' from their studying the dull discourses of curriculum philosophers, then so be it. And so often I find myself biting my tongue when every fibre of my being itches to tell them what I really know; tell them of the unbreakable bond that unites a place deep inside me with the all-powerful giver. But I believe their time will come, and it is not my job to determine when that time should be whether for my own acquaintances or anyone else. But come it will; Maharaji has made that promise and I believe him from the bottom of my heart. ' What you(Gordon) really mean is ' Although I believe that I have the ultimate truth, money is more important to me, even if means me not affording my students to be truly informed. You see I have learned this from my master. My master has promised that you too will have the same opportunity, but meanwhile I will keep on lying so I can top up my bank balance.' No doubt you are also an expert in 'dumbing down'(i.e. faking qualifications, so that you can get a good amout of passes..hence more funding) to get more student passes. This is extremely prevalent the British academic system which is implemented, in the main, by people like yourself who have no sense of honesty towards their students….an ideal setting for a follower of prempal. Don't feel too bad Gordon, you're not the only premie who is hiding behind academia. I dare you to answer this and open a discussion…..or don't you allow your students open discussion? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 02:12:12 (EST)
From: Free Verse Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Knowledge Message: Hey, they do it over at claimingtoenjoylifewhilebeingacultmember.com so why can't we? Asking Please, Mahatma-ji I need it; You know I can’t live without it; You know it is all I have ever wanted. Come on, I’ll promise Maharaj-ji anything! I’ll give you my life, my soul, my money. Come on, I’ve got to have it, I can’t live without it, I gotta have it. Pleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleaseplease I‘ll be the best Premie ever!!!!!!!!!!! The Knowledge Session Hey! Get your finger Out of my eye!!! Realization He hates his family He can’t be Perfect Master. He needs so much money! He can’t be Perfect Master He’s cranking out kids and I’ll be supporting them! He can’t be Perfect Master The Premies are crazy! He can’t be Perfect Master He only wants adoration and money He can’t be Perfect Master He hasn’t delivered what he promised. He can’t be Perfect Master He makes no sense! He can’t be Perfect Master He has no idea who I am He can’t be Perfect Master He can’t be Perfect Master He can’t be Perfect Master I’m outta here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 22:52:12 (EST)
From: Jim Heller Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Hans Jayanti 2nd day now up Message: There's a second report just up on the 'Electronic Times' page on ELK (via 'Around the Planet'). I haven't read the whole thing yet but do notice that once again Maharaji's trying to answering us without really talking with us: 'Some people used to accuse my father of doing it all just for money. But I know how hard he worked, and I know that all the money in the world couldn't pay for that. Sometimes he'd travel miles in the heat. It would get so hot that the tyres of his car would melt and start to merge with the tarmac, but still he'd carry on travelling in that heat. In his small car, with no air-conditioning, just to show people what's important in this life. He didn't care about the size of his audience, or who the people were or where they'd come from. He wasn't even bothered whether they got Knowledge or not. He just wanted to share the love that he felt. He just wanted to get that message across. Even today some people still think that this is all just a racket to make money. When I'm tired, exhausted, on my way somewhere, in the middle of nowhere, at some strange hour of the night, miles from my bed, I know why I'm doing this. Money can't heal pain. But love can, and this is about love. I'm so grateful to my master for the love he has shown me. I can't ever express how valuable it is to me.' No, Maharaji, what ABOUT the money? How much will this little festival in India earn you? Hm? That's a simple, straighforward question. You say it isn't about the money. Well just how much money isn't it about? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 23:18:05 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Heller Subject: Hans Jayanti 2nd day now up Message: Isn't it strange that Maharaji can just say that it wasn't about money for his father, and just try to get on his coat tails and claim that for himself? But note that Maharaji doesn't say that he ISN'T into it just for the money, but he just knows why he's doing it. Even today some people still think that this is all just a racket to make money. When I'm tired, exhausted, on my way somewhere, in the middle of nowhere, at some strange hour of the night, miles from my bed, I know why I'm doing this. Correction. The vast majority of people who have thougt about it conclude, based on the evidence, his actions rather than his words, that it really is 'a racket to make money.' So the 'some' word is quite wrong here. And when Maharaji is 'miles from his bed' he is usually in some other bed which is the absolute best money can obtain wherever in the world he is. He also has his personal servants with him, and the local premies respond to his every whim, although not every place will be as luxurious as that palace he lives in down in Malibu. How he suffers. Then, of course, he travels on his own personal jet. That, so he won't have to endure the hardships of travelling first class on commercial airliners. Come on Maharaji, don't be such a liar. If your tush gets sore sitting and flying that plane, someone else can take over and you get to settle your big ass right into a nice warm bed right there on the plane. Don't kid us, you fraud! And when was the last time BM travelled in anything that wasn't entirely climate controlled, let alone air conditioned? Remember even in the 70s when he bragged from the stage in Kissimmee that he was speaking from inside an 'invisible wall of air conditioning' which he controlled himself electronically from the throne he was sitting in? Remember he said this was we all fried in the Florida sun? Terrible hardships. How DOES he do it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 23:34:01 (EST)
From: b Ji Email: None To: JW Subject: Hans Jayanti 2nd day now up Message: He told the story one time about how he was mad at the divine mother durga Ji and she was in the next room and he left and went around the world and took the longest route possible before getting back to her. This was in the 90's. He loves to fly. The addiction of all the parts of his great folly are impossible for him to break. If he stops at all, it will be because y2k disruptions are to much to overcome for a while. My bet is that he goes to austrailia with the fam for the 'millenium'. I guess el.org will let us know. JW, during that kissimee wall of air conditioning fest, he was like the ultimate bully to his close servants and to us-remember the monday afternoon blast 'satsang'? Hammering the families and all us tightly wound victims with how he is insulted by our incredible lack of surrender. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 12:17:10 (EST)
From: Joy Email: None To: JW Subject: Hans Jayanti 2nd day now up Message: Well said, JW. The audacity of the guy, to try and complain about how difficult it is for him to 'spread this Knowledge'. As JW points out, he has never had to know any kind of true hardship, and he travels because he likes to travel, it's fun for him in his own personal custom-crafted Lear jet. I'm sure in India in the 40s and 50s they did not have air conditioned cars, which is why Shri Hans didn't use one. But if they DID, I bet anything that he would have had the best one available (Mata Ji would've seen to that). No, BM hasn't got a clue what true suffering or physical deprivation are all about, preaching from inside his ultra-cushioned, air-conditioned ivory tower. And what further annoys me is the way he speaks in such absolutes all the time. Such as all the money in the world couldn't pay for that. Who says? How dare he assume that what he does is of such all-fired importance that he deserves *more* than all the money in the world? This is just a ploy to get people to part with what little money they do have and throw it in his direction out of guilt, because after all, it's never enough for the *great* sacrifices he has to endure to bring them this *priceless* gift. MOST of the people in this world work damn hard, Maharaji, and in much less glamorous conditions than you do. Yet they don't assume that 'all the money in the world' is due to them automatically. You need to get REAL and figure out what an honest day's work actually is, and how much people are compensated for it in the *real* world. I do NOT see the correlation between Knowledge/Breath--or whatever the heck it is you're calling it these days--and lavishing money and wealth on the Master. Indeed, if the Knowledge really were a way of transcending worldly suffering and attachment, and you are supposedly the embodiment of it, it wouldn't matter one iota whether or not the Master had wealth or not, because he should be beyond all that. Right, BM? So why not try giving *back* some of the money for a change, help out some of those premies in need in some of those countries you're too scared to visit in your luxury jet, and live like a renunciate for awhile? Or at least tone it down to the income level of a *normal* person? What do you say? If Knowledge is really all that valuable, why not lead by example, as you say your father did, you greedy pig? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 23:22:58 (EST)
From: b Ji Email: None To: Jim Heller Subject: Hans Jayanti 2nd day now up Message: If that was all his message was, then why would we be here? I bet they had feet kissing fun. If he feels pain, well, what about the pain of wasted time that we can enjoy? And sure, it is only typical to play the sympathy card. clinton showed that he can do it, -it doesnt matter what I do as long as I keep 'doing the work of the people' and why are you bothering me? dear old dad was just a good old humanitarian with love to give? Tell that to those that dont know what a monster he could be and how he would yell. his own son told us many stories about that stuff. And once when mother divine was driving with prem rawats father, she was going to follow indian custom and throw a coin out the car window at a passing temple, the Mr. said 'give the coin to me and I'll see you get to heaven.' she threw the coin. thanks and a hat tip to the youngest son for that story- he told it repeatedly over the years to sort of explain WHY mom was banished. Look, truth hurts, thats the saying, we cause him pain? well, are there lies happening here? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 20:48:55 (EST)
From: Memphis Belle Email: None To: everyone Subject: M give charity for tax purpos? Message: Hey is there any way we can find out through the better business beaurau about M's Elan Vital business practices? I don't know anything about business or laws. Are there any lawyers here that can fill me in? I would like to know if M is completely selfish and never donates any money to charities. I bet he does donate money, maybe to those poor people in Hondorus, but not from his heart, for tax write off purposes. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 04:00:38 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Memphis Belle Subject: M' business IS charity ! Message: Why would he give to other charities ? His business is a registered US charity. Why would he help in Honduras ? The premies are 'doing service' for the spreading of supreme knowledge to the world working freely in Amtext/Textmart etc The benefits of those companies are 'donated' to the BM on his private account. He needs about $ 500,000 monthly (the average gift's total he monthly receives) to feed his family. Now if you take into acount the fact that EV is perpetually on the verge of bankruptacy, that all the money he has in cash is needed to pay for his new yacht, that the G4 isn't enough for his planetary 'purpose', where would you find the money ? Given the fact that most of the premies are also almost broke when they've paid all their 'participation' fees .... where would you get that money ! Working more in Textmart ? They can't sleep & meditate anymore ! His racket's managers are doing their best, believe me. They have all these 'special' projects here and there, buying a piece of land here, buying a new residence there, and when the premies have finally got all the money to buy the requested property, they tell them that the BM changed his mind, that he has a better idea, that they should trust him and send all these millions on his private bank account. They've done that trick over and over on every continent, and it works very well ! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 09:17:53 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Heller Subject: Hans Jayanti 2nd day now up Message: You know, the premie in me actually feels bad for the guy. 'Leave him alone', I hear him saying, 'he's a good guy'. But my brain is saying 'Get serious, M. You're so full of shit, it's coming out of your ears.' The contradictions that make up Maharaji are reason enough to keep your distance. Here's a guy who's making a fortune doing what he's doing and he wants me to believe that he's doing it all for love. In order to believe that, I'd have to go back to being blind to what I see, and just believe what he tells me. No thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 18:03:16 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Hans Jayanti 2nd day now up Message: Hi Jerry - I felt the same way you did when I read what M said. You know 'he's really trying, things are rough for him'. Guess I'm sympathethic or whatever. Then I think 'Hey, my father-in-law had to drive miles in an un-airconditioned car to make his business' (which btw was helping people by installing decent traffic lights, better street lights, etc.). And then I think that MY HUSBAND does the same thing. His cars are air-conditioned, but he goes out to all corners of the state and stays for days in crappy motels to help farmers learn how to grow better corn for less money. HE doesn't talk about how hard all that travelling is and how grateful the farmers should be to him, and if he did, they'd blow him off, rightly, cause their tax dollars are paying for it. I don't see my husband for days because of this, and it's hard for me too. So, quit whining, Maharaji. You're getting paid. If you don't want to do it anymore, then quit. I'm sure someone would be willing to take your place if they were given your perks and your salary. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 20:43:28 (EST)
From: david m Email: None To: Katie Subject: Hans Jayanti 2nd day now up Message: RIGHT ON KATIE......Keep on shouting wooooooo thanks dave Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 01:44:55 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: david m Subject: Thanks david (nt) Message: no text, but thanks! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 10:10:48 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jim Heller Subject: Air conditioning? Message: Jim: WOW, Hans drove in his puny car WITHOUT AIR CONDITIONING! What a sacrifice for his followers! Did you notice how M didn't mention the devotees that walk MILES, in extremes of heat and cold, because they don't have enough money to buy a damned car (with or without air conditioning)? Well, M has sure seen to it that HE doesn't have to make those same 'sacrifices' for K. 'Let's see now, which Rolls should I drive, which airplane should I fly?' Tough questions, M. I know that you sacrifice so much in your efforts to meet with us mere mortals. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 11:47:46 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Heller Subject: Classic religious ambiguity Message: Maharaji is paraphrased by Jonathan as saying something like this: 'My father had so much to share, and one thing that I realise, as I remember all he taught me, is that love is not bound by time. No matter how much time passes by, the master's love always stays alive. My father gave so much love to each and every person he came into contact with. His love was fresh and instant and even now it's still fresh. It can't age. It's such a blessing the way that his message has carried so far.' Now this is confusing. Is Maharaji saying that his father's love/spirit/power/whatever is still extant somehow? Still 'out there' controlling the world, guiding Maharaji, doing stuff like that? Or is he saying that he, Maharaji, remembers his father's love AS IF he were still around? Remember how Maharaji started telling us in the late seventies about how he would worship his father even then? How he'd pranam to his statue at his Malibu home and pray to his father? Is this like some sort of Christian thing where the ascended hamster is supposedly still with us? It'd better be. The alternative would have Maharaji praying to some dead master which is, after all, exactly what he has ridiculed from the start. But if that IS the case -- supposedly -- and Shri Hans is 'out there' somewhere to be prayed to, what does that make Maharaji himself? I thought his whole trip when he took the microphone at eight at his dad's funeral was that HE was now the embodiment of that Shri Maharaji stuff? You know, 'why are you crying? Did you think the Perfect Master ever leaves? He is here with you now. Recognize Him and obey Him (I mean me, my little pretties. Me, me, ME!!)' Wasn't he supposedly somehow infused with Maharajiness? I don't know. I'm a little confused. Can anyone help me out? I'd hate to pray to the wrong disembodied spirit of the present living Perfect Hamster. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 11:59:13 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Classic fudging Message: JC also paraphrases Maharaji as saying: 'My father wanted this Knowledge to go all around the world. That's a challenge. It is my challenge. Nothing like this has ever happened before. At one point when I was a child, the ability to spread this message was limited by the range of my father's car. He took his car as far as he could and then if he had to get somewhere the car wouldn't take him he would take a train, or walk on foot. But now, Knowledge has really begun to spread all over the world and our place here in Delhi is getting too small for this program. When I first came here, there were only about as many people in the audience as the number of people that I gave Knowledge to last week in one session. And now we're running out of space to put everyone! But of course this doesn't mean that I have to stop what I'm doing. The solution to this problem is yet to be found, but the problem is a good problem. If you're going to have a problem, this is the kind of problem you want to have.' (emphasis mine) So here's Maharaji gingerly touching that big, white elephant he usually ignores at all costs, his unequivocal PROMISE to bring 'peace to the world.' You know, the one we've hashed out with premies again and again here. Some say he's already done it (??). Others, that he's in the process of doing it. Some say that he never promised any such thing. Still others make allowances for him, saying that he was young at the time and was either misquoted (always a possibility, especially if you're really young) or misguided in promising anything so outlandish. Here, though, Maharaji treats it all as a 'challenge', a 'problem' that he suggests he's in the process of solving, but where's the 'promise' stuff? Sorry, am I being unreasonable here? The guy did say, the following 28 years ago didn't he: 'Give me your love, I will give you peace. Come to me, I will relieve you of your suffering. I am the source of peace in this world. Why won't you believe me? You poor suffering fools, lost in the world, why won't you come to me for help? All I ask you is your love. All I ask is your trust. And what I can give you is such peace as will never die. Yet now, how few people are coming through. I declare I will establish peace in this world. Many times I have come. This time I come with more power than ever before. But what can I do unless men come to me with love in their heart and a desire to know peace and Truth?' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 12:17:58 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Classic hypocrisy Message: Maharaji also supposedly said something like: 'With Knowledge you don't have to ask questions. Even if you don't ask any questions you'll get all the answers you need. Intellectuals spend ages cooking up impossible questions, but what's the good of a question no-one can answer?' Excuse me! I thought the way we all got into this mess was by falling for the oldest impossible question in the world, the one Maharaji was a MASTER at incessantly prodding us with: 'What is the purpose of human life?' Isn't that how we all got into this mess in the first place? I mean, even to this day, so many ex's (like poeople from virtually any religious tradition) think this is a legitimte question and one thy're obliged to grapple with. It took me a while before guys like Dawkins persuaded me to reconsider my own assumption that this was indeed not just A valid question but THE valid question. The fact is, if one accepts the truth of natural selection at all the question's a joke. There can be no 'purpose' to human life because human life didn't come about at the hand of some master designer with an eye to the future. Natural selection is blind to the future. No, Maharaji, nice try. First you try to dismiss all higher education with your comments the other day about most people with degrees confessing to you that they really don't know shit and that they can't even believe the schools were stupid enough to give them their degrees in the first place. Then you try to dismiss all progress with this kind of empty prattle: 'People speak about progress. What's that? It makes me laugh when people say that a country needs to progress. Does the grass need to progress? Does the earth need to progress? Do the mountains and rivers need to progress? Then they say that society needs to progress. But what is a society made up of? It's people and it's people that need to progress.' What's even richer is that, again, after getting the premies to take to heart and supposedly never forget your own impossible question, you chide them for thinking in such misguided, grand philosophical terms: 'We try to imagine everything. We try to imagine that we know what life is. We try to imagine that we know what Knowledge is. We try to imagine that we can see the future. We try to imagine it all. Imagination is not big and nor is it small. But reality is always bigger than anything you could ever imagine.' Maybe if you wouldn't try to 'wake up' your premies (to your antique spiritual illusion that is) you wouldn't put them back to sleep. Asshole. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 22:47:10 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Natural selection Message: Maharaji asks: 'What is the purpose of human life?' Jim answers: . It took me a while before guys like Dawkins persuaded me to reconsider my own assumption that this was indeed not just A valid question but THE valid question. The fact is, if one accepts the truth of natural selection at all the question's a joke. There can be no 'purpose' to human life because human life didn't come about at the hand of some master designer with an eye to the future. Natural selection is blind to the future. I don't think Dawkins could have said it better, Jim. I just finished 'The Blind Watchmaker', myself. A more excellent excercise in reasoning I don't think I've ever encountered. Should be required reading for all ex-premies, and the type didn't bother me at all once I got into it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 22:05:58 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Ya' hear that, Billy boy? Message: I just finished 'The Blind Watchmaker', myself. A more excellent excercise in reasoning I don't think I've ever encountered. Should be required reading for all ex-premies, and the type didn't bother me at all once I got into it. Jerry, Bill takes issue with your opinion and, as I understnad it, he's waiting outside with his sleeves rolled up. Bill thought Dawkins completely jumped the queue in terms of common sense reasoning and somehow left out the part where natural selection proves that the breath is conscious. I don't know. This really isn't my fight. It's between you guys. I guess I should really mind my own business. But I did want to tell you he's outside. It looks like he's fucking around with your hood ornament or something. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 07:38:15 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim & Bill Subject: Ya' hear that, Billy boy? Message: It looks like he's fucking around with your hood ornament or something. Well, I don't own a car at present, so I'll just let Bill take that up with the guy who's hood ornament he's fucking up. Natural selection proves that the breath is conscious? Bill, tell me more. How do you figure? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 13, 1998 at 22:28:51 (EST)
From: bb Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Ya' hear that, Billy boy? Message: Hi Jerry, Gee, your fresh off the blind watchmaker book- I'll have to dust off that whole subject. You mind if we have fun with it say, on sunday? dont keep me to that date but I'll try to post after one of your posts on some other more recent thread up top. I dont know where jim gets his comedy wise ass gene, but it is incandesent. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 16:37:59 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: bb Subject: Ya' hear that, Billy boy? Message: Gee, I don't know, Bill. By Sunday I may have forgotten everything I read, and then YOU'LL have the advantage. All I'm interested in is how you arrived at the theory that natural selection proves the breath is conscious. But OK, Sunday it is, and I won't hold you to the date. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 22:13:57 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Leaving To Stay Message: From Jonny Lang's new album, 'Wander This World': 'Leaving To Stay' I can't believe What I've seen I've been forsaken I've been deceived Cast aside And left behind Till I can't believe My own eyes Chorus: I been waiting For the glory Of the coming Of the Lord I heard A lot of stories But my prayers Have been ignored I been waiting In the wings Between the ocean And the shore This time I'm leaving To stay Falling away I seen the red sky Up in the morning I seen the low tide Slipping away I do believe I'll take the warning Taking my leave To stay (Chorus) Like an angel Afraid to fly Like the last lonely rose Left hanging on the vine (Chorus) (Chorus) Good album. If you like the blues, this kid's got it. He's only 17. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 11:37:30 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Jerry Subject: Leaving To Stay Message: Dear Jerry, Damn good for a little shit, eh? Thanks. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 02:07:56 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Leaving To Stay Message: Agree with Robyn, although I think 20 years might make a difference. Here's one verse I like from Joni Mitchell, who's a lot older: We really thought we had a purpose We were so anxious to achieve We had hope The world held promise For a slave To liberty Freely I slaved away for something better And I was bought and sold And all I ever wanted Was just to come in from the cold. This makes me cry whenever I hear it - sorry to be so emotional guys... - but it's how I feel that it was for us. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 07:52:50 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Katie Subject: Leaving To Stay Message: Dear Katie, Love Joni Mitchelle anyway but these words are right on. Love you, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 10:15:44 (EST)
From: seymour Email: None To: Katie Subject: Leaving To Stay Message: Wotcha Katie, just wanted to ask what song the words are from 'Freely I slaved away for something better And I was bought and sold And all I ever wanted Was just to come in from the cold.' Seymour Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 15, 1998 at 23:40:44 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: seymour Subject: Leaving To Stay Message: Wotcha Seymour - Glad to talk to you again. The lines are a verse from Joni Mitchell's song 'Come in From the Cold'. I'm not sure what album the song was originally released on, but it's on her 'Hits' album that was released last year (I think) and has most of her most popular songs on it. In the verse I quoted, I think she's talking about her experiences in the recording industry, but it sure had relevance to me. Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 21:44:01 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Now We Are Six Message: Here's a piece of mental driftwood from EL: 'Best friends I wake I turn within my self and smile I tell myself: 'there is someone here who truly loves you' I say: 'who is it?' I answer: 'It's me!' I feel that familiar smile I feel the warmth of my hearts energy fluffing up from inside. I say: 'I love you. Let's go and have fun today'. I answer: 'Yes, lets!' I am my own best friend.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 10:20:49 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jim Subject: Now We Are Six Message: Jim: Out of 67 words in this quote, I counted 16 'I, me, my' words. Yup, you got it right, that's about the right amount of ego display for a six year old! I don't think it is within the realm of human possibility to use those words any more that was done in this quote. When will they realize that they aren't becoming 'egoless,' but rather full of themselves? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 14:34:48 (EST)
From: Veep, Jr. Email: None To: Mike Subject: The real thing Message: Now we are six: When I was one I had just begun. When I was two I was nearly new. When I was three I was hardly me. When I was four I was not much more. When I was five I was just alive. Now I am six I'm as clever as clever. I think I'll be six now Forever and ever. -A.A. Milne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 18:06:47 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Veep, Jr. Subject: The real thing Message: Thanks, Veep, I had a feeling Jim was being unfair to A.A. Milne, who COULD write, and who could convey the meaning of childhood in a unforgettable way. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 14:26:53 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jim Subject: Now We Are Six Message: The poem reminded me a little of one my boyfriend & I wrote in high school: 'Free go I, travelling the universe, unencumbered by babysitting and cleaning up my room, Until I go home and have to explain to my parents Why I'm soooooo stoned' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 00:26:13 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Happy Birthday, Sir David... Message: ... the Knight of Cheddar, Earl of Brie, Jack of Monterey, and legendary guardian of the cheese! Hope it's a wonderful day, even though it's alreay part way over in England. Thanks so much for all you have done for this forum, and for MMT, and for the uncensored premie site - you are truly a prince among men! Lots of love - and happy Birthday! Love from Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 01:32:24 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Sir David Subject: A cheese hamper is on its way Message: Happy Birthday Sir David! Thanks for all your dairy goodness over the last how-ever-long. Have a good one and enjoy a dip in the fondue from me! love, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 08:03:13 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: TD Subject: A cheese hamper is on its way Message: Thanks TD and Katie for your good wishes. But don't forget about when I set Maharaji's tree in his garden ablaze. Surely they will say, that was his finest hour... I always keep some fireworks from our Guy Fawkes night (5th November) which I let off on my birthday. Yes, it will be a good one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 10:43:48 (EST)
From: Laura Email: None To: Sir David Subject: A cheese hamper is on its way Message: Happy Birthday David. I wish for you great love, health and various dairy products. Love, Laura Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 15:21:20 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Laura Subject: A cheese hamper is on its way Message: Happy Birthday David, If any of your employees make you a special birthday video plese send me a copy. All the best, Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 10:36:05 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Sir David Subject: Happy Birthday, Sir David... Message: You're very lucky, David, that someone as old as Katie can even remember your age, since she's very forgetful! Thanks Katie for the supreme effort required to recall this stuff... and... what was I gonna say?... hmmm... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 11:17:52 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: Happy Birthday, Sir David... Message: Try not to burn down any trees today, OK? It would spoil the whole day. Enjoy debating with you, Jerry Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 20:24:16 (EST)
From: Perhaps we should send Email: None To: Sir David of bonfire Subject: a fire extinguisher... Message: ...or some PVC? Happy Birthday and thank you for all of your great posts. Best Wishes, VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 21:31:10 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Katie Subject: Happy Birthday, Sir David... Message: Dear Sir, Please let me join the rest here and wish you a most happy now a few hours belated birthday! Hope it was a great one. Love you lots, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 01:42:31 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Happy Birthday, Sir David... Message: Happy Birthday, Sir David! I apologise for being late, but as you can imagine, Sundays are very busy days for me. I want you to know how much I enjoy your posts and hearing about your daughters, and your understanding of God. You are a good father, and a good person. I hope that the next year is full of happiness. Father Michael Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 09:56:18 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: The above Subject: Thanks. Better than previous Message: Thanks everybody, for your kind words. In years long gone, I always used to spend my birthday at some wretched Hans Jayanti 'festival?' listening to intitiators droning on and watching the Lord of the Universe wobbling around without his shirt on. Thankfully, those days are long gone and I had the REAL love of my children singing Happy Birthday to me and some nice chocolate birthday cake. Much love to you all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 14:53:14 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Belated Wishes Message: David, a belated Happy Birthday. Glad you had a good day. Just the thought of spending your birthday at Hans Jayanti is kind of a chilling thought.... All the best, I also appreciate all you have contributed to the forum. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 18:12:37 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Thanks. Better than previous Message: Dear David, I always had to take final exams in college on my birthday, but that sounds MUCH better than a birthday Hans Jayanti! Lots of love and hope it was a good one this year. Believe me, 46 ain't that old, honey! Love, Katie (not as old as Brian, hee hee) P.S. I've been having some trouble working out your heraldry: Sir David, Knight of Cheddar, and Earl of the Burning Tree, or what? Maybe we could just make your American Indian name 'Burning Tree', and you and eb 'Running Bear' could party together? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 22:11:52 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Real love Message: happy birthday Sir D! Glad that you have that real love now instead of that fake Lord pseudo-love! Love, one of your biggest forum fans, Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 12, 1998 at 15:07:25 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: Katie Subject: Happy Birthday, Sir David... Message: Dearest Sir David, I hope your birthday was all that. May the coming year bring you all the cheese that you desire. Love, Ellen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 17:08:33 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Straight from Hans Jayanti!! Message: Jonathan Cainer, one of the guys at EnjoyingLife sent a field report from Hans Jayanti in India which you can read via the small 'Electronic Times' link on the 'around the planet' page. Jonathan paraphrases some of Maharaji's satsang from last night (or tonight actually [?!]). After talking about how easily fooled we are by peoples' supposed credentials, Maharaji said: We are too easily impressed by distant cultures and the mystique of foreign lands. These things impress us, yet if we really want to be impressed we should look inside. Then we could call ourselves Mr or Ms So-and-So BA, MA, PhD 'Heart Discovered'. Now that's a credential worth displaying. This from a guy who called himself 'Lord of the Universe', 'God in Human Form' and now, simply, ' The Hamster'. The guy from a distant culture who was able to sell all this shit. And HE'S saying WHAT? Holy cow, talk about wanting to get grandfathered in or something. 'Beware OTHER wolves in sheeps clothing' said the wolf in sheep's clothing. As for us and Maharaji's sense of accountability, check this out: It's always worth remembering that it takes two to hold a quarrel. Some people criticise me, but no matter what they say, or how many people say it, I just say nothing. I know that they criticise me and I know that the more my message is spread, the more criticism I will get. This year so far I have personally given Knowledge to 18,300 people. I have given Knowledge to 77,500 people since I started personally running the Knowledge sessions. The more successful this work becomes the more some people are going to feel inclined to criticise it. But I just ignore it. Those who want to hear can hear and those who don't well let's put it this way, if you are going to respond to criticism you may as well water a stone and hope that it will grow grass. So how's this work? If someone criticises you they must be wrong so fuck 'em? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 17:32:03 (EST)
From: Mc Email: e_mc_42@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: Straight from Hans Jayanti!! Message: Ok, so fuck me...at least I have my life back. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 21:24:17 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Mc Subject: Straight from Hans Jayanti!! Message: LOL, Mc. I don't know if you intended for your remark to be funny, but it gave me a good laugh. And it was dead on, too. Thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 18:33:11 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Now what do you say, Bruce? Message: Bruce, You've maintained against all reason that Maharaji has replied to questions and criticism but that, sad, tormented souls that we are, there's just no satisfying us. Last night in India, however, Maharaji apparently stated quite clearly that his policy is avoid and ignore. Care to comment? Go ahead, Bruce, just make something up. I love it when you talk that way to me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 20:10:04 (EST)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Guru Maharj Ji Subject: Paranoid clown Message: Is this man a prat or what? So long as there are less than 77,000 people criticising me, I'm home and dry, provided I just ignore them. Tell you this, Gurubreath, you vainglorious twerp. We've hardly started. Some good things to come, I promise... Arise like lions out of slumber In unvanquishable number Shake your chains to earth like dew That in your sleep did fall on you For ye are many, they are few. (Shelley) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 21:03:31 (EST)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jim Subject: So what's new? Message: The more successful this work becomes the more some people are going to feel inclined to criticise it. But I just ignore it. Was there ever a time when he didn't 'just ignore it'? - Not just the criticisms, but the struggles and difficulties encountered by his followers - personal, financial or whatever? Was there ever a time when he didn't simply ignore just about everything going on in the rest of the world? Doen't lardy pants simply ignore everyone and everything that isn't prostrating itself before his lotus cars (oops, sorry, feet)? Did the Lord's Hans Jayanti message pass a few words of sympathy, encouragement or explanation for the devastation in central America? I am almost shocked that three of the four enjoyinglife apologists/fanaticists can whisk themselves off to India for a few days, just to witness 'live' what they will inevitably be able to watch on video in due course. By UK standards, people who can afford a return flight to India are beyond 'comfortably well-off', and might reasonably be described as 'affluent'. Which might be a partial explanation for why they they are all still enjoyinglife, so. And where does this wealth come from? I don't know about the others, but in Cainer's case, it is from writing an 'astrology ' column in the Daily Mirror - one of the UK's biggest-selling dailies. Flogging psuedoscientific bullshit for the masses in the cause of accumulating personal wealth. The fellow has obviously learned a few tricks from somewhere. But how does he sleep? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 22:30:39 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: nigel Subject: So what's new? Message: so, ratwat just 'ignores it?' He 'says nothing'? fat chance, he was doing that 'know your enemy' thing here as student and doc and participant and a couple others. So now he says I/we are like a rock that you can water and you arent going to get anything out of it. his denial is complete, we are florishing and we have left the rock, paralized, limited trap of his domination and delusion. he is edgeing closer and closer to declaring us again as his enemies like he did in england. next will be that building up of the zealots to take action against those who dare to criticise. when ever the lord comes the evil ones (us) emerge to stop his divine play. he is not through with this lord on earth delusion of his. he fully intends to try to make it grow. he has hijacked all the words and appearances like grace, love, lord, truth, fullfillment, within, peace, real, divine, you, sacred, master, life, heart, feel, breath, light, the word, ect. and is foisting this divine saviour trip on a soon to be flattened post y2k world. one source of truth to stop him. and it is right here. as he put it in england, his enemies. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 21:48:42 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jim Subject: But Maharaji IS responding Message: I don't expect Maharaji would see this but he IS actually responding to critisism by mentioning it in his speech. If he made no mention of the critisism or of the critics, then THAT would be not responding. WHy doesn't Maharaji just pack up and go home. The western world doesn't want him and his old, dead cult. Better to stay in India and spread all his bullshit in his own country. OK, I'll go back to sleep now 'till next I'm roused. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 23:02:11 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Anyone Subject: Where's HIS f#~#ing heart then Message: Just read the stuff about Maharaji talking about the heart crap. So where's HIS fucking heart then? All those people who gave their lives and fucked up their WHOLE lives in some cases, just for him because he convinced people through blatant deception that he was the Lord. Don't lecture US about hearts boy. You don't know the meaning of the word. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 10:38:18 (EST)
From: david m Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Where's HIS f#~#ing heart then Message: Hey SIr David...... Right on....I know for sure that this heart of mime was completely devistated...so man you are completely right on this one he has no heart..just wants more followers for more cash....what bullshit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...thanks ....dave Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 23:34:07 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Jim Subject: Have I lost my sense of humour Message: ...or is that joke about the orange juice and the men the stupidest attempt at an analogy I have heard in a long time? I really can not believe that made him laugh, and yet I'm sure all the premies at the event had a good chortle while in their group conscious state. Oh money, that's a big one for so many people. They figure: 'First I'll get rich, then I'll find out what the purpose of my life is.' Of course by then, you're tired, sick, old and broken but then you'll be ready to understand what life is all about! Gee Maharaji, you're so lucky. You didn't have to wait too long to find out your life purpose - which was to get rich first! Is it just me, or did a lot of his satsangs in India go on and on about the issue of wealth. I remember in one video, he said that he was asked a question by an Indian premie, who said, 'Why is it always that the good men have nothing?' and M replied 'Are the mahatmas not good men? They have everything they need. They have money.' At the time, even being a premie, this made me feel uncomfortable as I thought that's a really genuine question - especially for a poor Indian, and is that a good answer? No! Honestly, times like now, I really do think he is so unbelievably fucking manipulative and underhanded. I could take it if an old penniless sadhu told me that wealth is not important, but not this fat cat who lives an extremely ostentatious and luxurious life at the expense of premies. By saying this (as well as his 'relationships aren't important' trip) he is virtually saying only when you're poor and humble and alone, you'll understand what life is about. You're such a disgrace Maharaji - and I do think in all those Hans Jayanti videos I watched that you come across as totally patronising and contemptuous of Indian premies. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 06:32:04 (EST)
From: David M Email: None To: TD Subject: another one Message: here is another quote from the Hans Jayanti report: 'People say you should know your enemy. If you want to know your enemy you just need to get a mirror. Ask yourself, how do you use your body, your time, your energy? We buy in to this idea or that idea about how we need to be satisfied. And, when we do, we become our own worst enemies. We may as well set off on a galloping horse through a thick jungle.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 09:06:12 (EST)
From: seymour Email: None To: David M Subject: another one Message: When I read the words of M..'It's always worth remembering that it takes two to hold a quarrel. Some people criticise me, but no matter what they say, or how many people say it, I just say nothing' ( from the Hans Jayanti quote) I get the feeling he is talking about us folk over here at ex-premie site. This feeling of being talked to directly would of been very blissful in the old days, and even now it is good to know that what we are saying and doing here is being taken notice of. The thing is, I am not a 'critic' nor do I want a quarrel. Where's the harm in having a different opinion? If those that disagree with M are doomed to a life without satchitanand, it seems unfair. Surely it is the heathens and revellers in the Maya that need the most help to get out of it. It is much more rude and upsetting to ignore the person who is addressing you than to criticise in the first place. This is not a book or film we are criticising (i.e. a matter of taste) - the knowledge is put forward as the foundation of our existence in this Universe/ the key to understanding the true way that we can realise our potential and should be open to some examination. It is not our criticism of the knowledge that is important but our wish to have an open and free exchange of ideas so that we can all learn something new. The reason many of us first got of the track was because there was no one who could clear up a few simple questions we had about the value of meditation, what exactly is a 'satguru', how come after twenty years of sincere practise I am miserable? etc. etc. etc.. I know the stock answer was always 'meditate, do service , do satsang' but despite dedicating our lives to just these things some of us must have been doing something wrong as it only got us into a situation where we had no career, no material security ( we were always told this meant nothing), and felt that we had achieved nothing. It can do no harm to talk to those with genuine questions and having a dialogue with those who do not understand is surely the best way to get them to understand? The 'personal involvement' should stretch to getting involved in such an open, honest debate rather than turning away from anyone who disagrees or even wishes to discuss knowledge and related subjects. I don't hold out much hope. p.s. A few more quotes from Vonnegut... 'We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. . . . Only in superstition is there hope. If you want to become a friend of civilization, then become an enemy of the truth and a fanatic for harmless balderdash.' -Wampeters, Foma and Granfalloons, 'When I Was Twenty-One' ' 'Hello, babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. At the outside, babies, you've got about a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies -- : 'God damn it, you've got to be kind.' ' -Eliot Rosewater, God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater Bokononism Bokononism is a religion that Kurt Vonnegut developed/invented in his book Cat's Cradle. On the island of San Lorenzo, a man named Bokonon invented a religion based upon lies. It gave the impoverished citizens of the island something to make their lives seem more important. Then, along with the leader of the island, Earl McCabe, he outlawed the religion and made himself into a sort of fugitive, in order to give the religion even more meaning. I wanted all things To seem to make some sense, So we could all be happy, yes, Instead of tense. And I made up lies So that they all fit nice, And I made this sad world A par-a-dise. Above from http://acad.fandm.edu/~al_burgman/vonnegut/vonnegut.html Cheers, Seymour Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 11:29:57 (EST)
From: Laura Email: None To: seymour Subject: another one Message: Thank you, I enjoyed your post and agree with what you have said. I think you swallowed GMJ and the whole cult thing the same way I did. Even though you 'don't hold out much hope', at least you can write 'Cheers' - so there's some hope, eh? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 13, 1998 at 11:02:16 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: seymour Subject: another one Message: ABsolutely fabulous, See-more. I see what you are saying. It seems awfully benign to want to discuss something, or express doubts about something that is touted to be the be all and end all of the universe. I really admire ministers and rabbis who are able to openly talk about doubts and questions and who admit to having them themselves. Many of them welcome the discussion and exchange. Many, however, do not and they are are the ones at risk (from what I've seen) for alcoholism, suicide, sexual abusing, hubris to the point of wanting to be worshipped. There was a case like that here in the DC area--Montrose Baptist Church. Several of my friends and business associates used to go there. The minister was found out to have engaged in financial fraud and had a criminal record, prior to being hired by the church. He had neglected to disclose this during the hiring. It became a horrible scene, where he told people in a religious service 'you either stand with me or against me.' and literally made people stand up and walk towards him if they stood by him! These are very religious people who would have probably forgiven this man if he had shown his humanity, if he had shown remorse. Instead he was like a totaltarian dictator, a meglomaniac! My friends (good folks all) who attended that church were devastated. They had been going there for years and THEIR church was destroyed by this maniac. They all left (to their credit) b/c they do not see ANY minister as being above God. Once again, I have to quote my husband 'Maharaji wants to be a rock star not a minister' He wants the fame, the money, the glamour, but none of the icky, messy human things like suffering, doubt, diversity, poverty, differences, thought, ideas, philosophy, reason, congenital problems, debate, pain, that leak out all over the place even in those who are the pillars of meditation, service, and satsang. ANd it seems dangerous to repress all that stuff--Jung said the stuff you repress becomes your shadow. There's a big old shadow around this whole premie thing--repressed doubts, fears, questions treated like bogeymen turn into BIG health problems, distorted thinking, broken lives. Really looking forward to reading TIme quake Love, Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 11:06:04 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Maharaji - Horse's Ass Subject: Maharaji - plenty of nothing Message: It's always worth remembering that it takes two to hold a quarrel. Some people criticise me, but no matter what they say, or how many people say it, I just say nothing. I know that they criticise me and I know that the more my message is spread, the more criticism I will get. This year so far I have personally given Knowledge to 18,300 people. I have given Knowledge to 77,500 people since I started personally running the Knowledge sessions. The more successful this work becomes the more some people are going to feel inclined to criticise it. But I just ignore it. Those who want to hear can hear and those who don't well let's put it this way, if you are going to respond to criticism you may as well water a stone and hope that it will grow grass. How very blessed we are in this world that when someone posts criticism on this Forum of Maharaji's pitiful attempts to pretend to be something that he's not, and his sad attempts to personally spread Knowledge to the world all by his divine self, th Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 11:08:39 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Straight from Hans Jayanti!! Message: We are too easily impressed by distant cultures and the mystique of foreign lands. These things impress us, yet if we really want to be impressed we should look inside. Then we could call ourselves Mr or Ms So-and-So BA, MA, PhD 'Heart Discovered'. Now that's a credential worth displaying. Yeah, I'm thrilled at the prospect of having a PhD in Heart Discovered. I'm sure everybody will be real impressed. It's always worth remembering that it takes two to hold a quarrel. Some people criticise me, but no matter what they say, or how many people say it, I just say nothing. I don't know who else has picked up on this, but to me this is as good as saying, 'stay away from ex-premie.org'. I think we'll see fewer premies posting here in the future. I couldn't be more delighted if that's the case. They only get on my nerves when they do. This year so far I have personally given Knowledge to 18,300 people. I have given Knowledge to 77,500 people since I started personally running the Knowledge sessions. The more successful this work becomes the more some people are going to feel inclined to criticise it. The only people who are criticicising Maharaji are his former devotees. Nobody else gives a shit. And those figures, am I supposed to be impressed by them? I'm not, not from a guy who declared, 30 years ago, that he would establish peace in this world in less than 20 years. I'd say those figures are a long way from that. He's got some serious catching up to do. Those who want to hear can hear and those who don't well let's put it this way, if you are going to respond to criticism you may as well water a stone and hope that it will grow grass. Maharaji, are you sure it's not just that everything that's said about you here is true, and you have absolutely no defense against it? I'd avoid confrontation, too, if that were the case. Otherwise, I would respond and clear my good name. But you can't do that, can you? And you don't have to, so you won't. And besides, in your cowardly way, you have responded to us, by explaining yourself to those who would never say boo to you, your doting, never questioning why, premies. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 12:00:15 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jerry Subject: He's Message: Jerry: The answer to why he doesn't respond to critisism is so easy to see: HE'S A COWARD! It's just that simple. Jeez, I like that: the LARD of the Universe is a COWARD... He's afraid of us... he he he. ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 12:52:42 (EST)
From: David MOf all the things Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Come on... Message: Hi Jerry 'I don't know who else has picked up on this, but to me this is as good as saying, 'stay away from ex-premie.org'. I think we'll see fewer premies posting here in the future. I couldn't be more delighted if that's the case. They only get on my nerves when they do.' this one gets the cake! this is really funny... do you really REALLY think that Maharaji is telling Indian folks (he is speaking in India) to stay away from the internet??? Maharaji has always been criticized ever since he has been around. you did not invent this, you know...he is just saying that he will be criticized more and more, which is to be expected and not surprising a bit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 13:14:48 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: David MOf all the things Subject: No, YOU come on Message: this one gets the cake! this is really funny... do you really REALLY think that Maharaji is telling Indian folks (he is speaking in India) to stay away from the internet??? Maharaji has always been criticized ever since he has been around. you did not invent this, you know...he is just saying that he will be criticized more and more, which is to be expected and not surprising a bit. Sorry, David, I think you'd better think this through a little better yourself. First, do you think Maharaji's only speaking to Indians here? Like, here's a simple question: do you think he knows that Jonathan et al. were planning to offer a synopsis of his satsang as they have over on EL? Yes? No? Maybe? I don't know, myself, but I think it's a good question. I think it's quite possible that they got his permission first. What do you think of that? And if that were true who then would be his audience? And even if Maharaji's completely oblivious to this 'surreptitious' reportage, do you think he's forgotten all the thousand or so premies from outside India sitting up by the stage? Or how about the inevitable video(s) they'll make of this 'event' for worldwide distribution? (I wish I had the numbers on one of these videos. Does he sell 1,000? 10,000? 20,000? At how much a pop?) Do you think Maharaji forgets about THAT audience when he speaks? Hardly. He might as well start off his satsang by looking straight at the camera and saying 'Hi. This is Maharaji, your Lard and Perfect Hamster, broadcasting this week from the banks of the holy Ganges. Every couple of years we like to bring things back home to remind you folks out there exactly what kind of exotic, foreign land I come from.' Beside all that, what other 'enemies' does Maharaji have? His brother avoids any mention of him. Check out Satpal's page and you'll see that his way of dealing with Prempal is the same as Prempal's for him, he pretends he doesn't exist. So Maharaji's not talking about him. Who else is there? Who else knows about or gives a flying fuck about this walking travesty from the seventies, this outtake from Austin Powers? There's only us, David. Maharaji never talked about his 'enemies' until we started publically bugging him for some answers. And here, as he's just explained if you'd only listen, is his answer. There will be no answer, cause he's the Perfect Hamster. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 16:18:49 (EST)
From: David M Email: None To: Jim Subject: No, YOU come on Message: Hi Jim i did not mean to say that he is oblivious to what is happening on the Net. My (non verified) theory is that you are right and that he is aware of what is happening on this site and on the enjoyinglife site. What made me laugh was the paranoid comment about M telling Indian premies to stay off the Internet (i mean, they don`t even have hot water!). Besides, Even though his videos go around the world, he still speaks in HINDI over there, you know... Finally, my point was also that this site is not the only source of criticism in this world...it is just a brand new medium, that is all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 17:46:06 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: David M Subject: My apologies Message: David, I'm really sorry I read you wrong on this. My apologies. I thought ... well, you know what I thought. Sorry again. Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 18:01:38 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: David MOf all the things Subject: Come on... Message: When I was a premie I lived by what M said. If he said he didn't bother with those that criticise him, I wouldn't bother with them either. I wasn't suggesting what he was saying was for the Indian premies present, only. Sooner or later, I would have seen the video of the event myself. Thereafter, everytime I would sit down to quarrel with exes on this forum, I would remember M's words, and would think to myself, 'Why bother? Like M says, it's like trying to bring forth grass from a rock'. I hope other premies feel the same way. I won't miss them if they do. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 18:16:10 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: David MOF... Subject: One other thing Message: Even though his videos go around the world, he still speaks in HINDI over there, you know... But it's the lovely voice of Joan Apter, interpreting him, that we hear here. Also, in your response to Jim, you say that this site isn't the only place he's being criticised. I can't remember the last time I even saw him mentioned (outside of EL and that site Sir David setup), let alone criticised, anywhere else. Can you? Where? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 15:36:13 (EST)
From: David M Email: None To: Jerry Subject: One other thing Message: Hi Jerry it is not the voice of Joan Apter...where did you get THAT info... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 16:47:53 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: David M Subject: One other thing Message: It sure sounds like her. Who is it, then? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 16:50:37 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jerry Subject: One other thing Message: Also, in your response to Jim, you say that this site isn't the only place he's being criticised. I can't remember the last time I even saw him mentioned(outside of EL and that site Sir David setup), let alone criticised, anywhere else. Can you? Where? I think you are right about Maharaji not being mentioned in the West, other than on this website, but that might not be true for India. There are a number of 'anti-guru' groups in India, who are trying to work against the cultural tradition of many Indians having one, or several, gurus. Gurus take advantage of the tradition for their own material gain, Maharaji among them, and these groups just see it all as irrational religious mumbo jumbo. And I think they have criticized, and demonstrated against, Maharaji, as well as other gurus. So, since he was speaking in India, he might have been referring to that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 22:22:31 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: JW Subject: One other thing Message: There are a number of 'anti-guru' groups in India, who are trying to work against the cultural tradition of many Indians having one, or several, gurus. I wish them all the luck in the world. I think you're probably right that M was talking about problems unique to him in India. Still, his philosopy on how to deal with those who criticise him did reach western eyes in no time, didn't it? Every premie who visits EL has got the word, if you are going to respond to criticism you may as well water a stone, hoping it will grow grass. I know what effect that would have had on me as a premie. I never would come near ex-premie.org again. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 13:30:37 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jerry Subject: One other thing Message: You raise a good point. One of the downsides of EL for Maharaji might be that information about what he says and does in India and elsewhere gets sent around the world before he has the chance to control it, edit it out of videos and print, and the like. This is probably another reason he dislikes the Internet. I wonder if the EL people will be contacted by PAM to comment on what gets posted on that site that isn't kosher to M's current PR rules. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 03:40:19 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: David MOf all the things Subject: The Internet and the 3rd world Message: do you really REALLY think that Maharaji is telling Indian folks (he is speaking in India) to stay away from the internet??? I just wanted to say that if M is keeping up with technology the way he likes to ... remember all his recent satsangs where he talks about pulling apart computers etc...then he should be very aware that the 3rd world (God I hate using this un-PC term, but what else can I say?) has taken to the internet with as much vengeance as they can afford. Recently I was backpacking in a poorer part of the world and was amazed at how prevalent (and cheap) internet cafes were there. I would discuss this with other travellers who had been through Asia and the like, and they were saying how you can get better public access to the internet in Asia and South America than you can in the 1st world countries. So, that gave me hope that 3rd world premies (sorry, I really hate that term) will not be excluded from getting the true facts from sites like ours. Also, I remember studying about 10 years ago, how India was trying to 'jump a revolution' to escalate their development. The government at the time (don't know if they still have the same policy) had stated that they had missed the 'industrial revolution' and so wanted to catch the wave of the 'information revolution' - that's why India had been relative 3rd world pioneers in satellites and the like ('a tv in every village' policy etc etc), so more than likely, they'll be encouraging the proliferation of the Net throughout the country as well. If that's still the case, that won't make the former LOTU very happy, as he won't be able to control/modify the info he has in the past. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 09:32:34 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: TD Subject: The Internet and the 3rd world Message: That's right. They aren't all living in mud huts and getting their water from wells in India. The British economy is closely linked to the technological revolution which has happened in India. Beleive it or not, much of our private and state run business computer work is done in India. I'm talking about our big banks, Industrial Corporations, Insurance Companies and Hospitals which are all employing Indian people in India to do their computerised administration. There's a two fold reason for this. Besides our old empire links with India they are becoming computer literate much faster than some first world countries, with computer and Internet literacy taught in most schools. They work harder and for less money than in Europe, which is the other reason, because of the difference in our economies. Mind you, the big companies don't pay slave wages and to get a job in computing in India is considered to be a good step up in the job world. Other first world countries will be employing third world computer labour for similar reasons as above. And third world countries will want to catch up with us and the Internet is a reletively cheap way of doing so. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 14:50:32 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Sir David Subject: The Internet and the 3rd world Message: Other first world countries will be employing third world computer labour for similar reasons as above. And third world countries will want to catch up with us and the Internet is a reletively cheap way of doing so. Very true. The recent Omnibus Budget Bill that the US Congress just passed (and for which the Republicans took a big hit in the election last week, but for other reasons) included a waiver to allow even more immigration of technically trained people, largely from India, by the way, to work in Silicon Valley. Currently, there is such a labor shortage of computer techies in California at least, that immigration is seen as the best way to get the workers they need. And apparently India is turning out people with technical degrees in large numbers. Plus, I understand that India has a booming computer industry of its own, both of indiginous origin and from Western computer companies opening plants and research centers there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 20:41:05 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Maharaji's Wit and Wisdom Message: [This is a compilation of Maharji's quotes as submitted by premies over on the EnjoyingLife Site. It speaks for itself.] 'When I want a tree to grow, I water the root not the leaves.' 'The language of the heart, even the deaf can hear.' 'To be alive is to have existence; To have existence is to have consciousness; To have consciousness is to be able to enjoy; To be able to enjoy, one needs to be alive.' 'God has given you life and you are living it for someone else.' 'Wisdom is simple. It's just doing what you will one day do, but doing it now. It's just as simple as that.' 'Learning and growing. That is what Knowledge is all about. A human being, with all the passion, falling in love with the most beautiful thing, again and again. Enjoying every moment of life.' 'One day you will be completely alone. So try to be completely alone now. Because now you can recognize the beauty that is there.' The heart rarely speaks, but when it does listen to it!' In fact, it's incredibly important to, once in a while, make it go silent. If a human being wants to experience those simple things that reside within him or her, the hope, the love, the grace, the joy then, this has to go silent. And then in the silence, you begin to hear the simplicity of you.' 'Knowledge was there before I was born and it will be there after I die.I never lose that perspective.Yet,there was only one person who made the real magic happen.' 'Those people - who made that commitment, went inside and enjoyed, and enjoy every day - will always be dear to me. And not only will you be dear to me, but you will be dear to that divinity inside of you.' 'So, to what do I attach my anchor? If I am the wise one, then let me throw my anchor in that bay in which the anchor will hold. That's the anchorage that I want. Not to seek glory in my abilities to do things, but let me seek my glory in that beauty that lies inside of me.' 'All roads have an end and thus all journeys upon them will some day end. Find the universe within you and you may journey forever.' 'This path is for human beings There is no sacrifice Just a little listening Just a little understanding Just a little faith Just a little love. That's all it takes.' 'A true master is like a gardener He does not pull the tree out of the ground He plants the seed, and the process unfolds itself.' 'You are but flowers in the garden And as you bloom, so shall you wilt And for a time your fragrance will linger And in time that too will be gone But something else remains Something which can never die.' 'One breath at a time, This miracle of life touches you.' 'What is Knowledge? Knowledge is a stethoscope. Through this stethoscope we can tap into the inner being of who we really are. We can motivate ourselves inside, we can go deep inside and experience what we really consist of.' 'Thought is God's gift to you, what you think about is your gift to yourself.' Question: Is life as difficult as it sometimes seems to be? Answer: Life is a tide; float on it. Go down with it and go up with it, but be detached. Then it is not difficult.' 'Nothing celebrates life, like life' Happiness is not a consequence, it's a state of being.' 'The war of all wars Sometimes we sit, and the moments are lost, each moment being a little soldier; and as time goes on, the soldiers are sacrificed. The war of all wars. No war can be greater than the inner human conflict... Every human being like a king watches the tyranny of this incredible war. You are the king and you must decide, or else every single soldier will be gone and no longer will you reign... Wise are those who have secured the victory.' 'The meaning of life: looking inside for enjoyment.' 'Recognize how precious life is.' 'When you breathe, don't think of it as air. Think of it as the ultimate gift that a human being can be given. Understand the pleasure, the joy to be. And understand the pleasure - the pleasure of the joy to be content. Understand, accept - with humility... each breath that comes into you.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 22:25:14 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: And what I think of it Message: 'When I want a tree to grow, I water the root not the leaves.' What a fucking genius, huh? I never would have thought of that. 'God has given you life and you are living it for someone else.' I know what he's driving at here, but hey, I've got bills to pay. I don't have a shitload of devotees to satisfy my every whim. 'Wisdom is simple. It's just doing what you will one day do, but doing it now. It's just as simple as that.' Now here's a perfect example, of when I would like to respond right then and there, to what he says, 'Could you please clarify that'? No such chance. If you can't figure it out for yourself, you're out of luck. But then, the master don't have to clarify anything. He's so perfectly clear right off the bat, right? Right. The heart rarely speaks, but when it does listen to it!' I thought the whole point of Knowledge is that the heart is murmering perpetual bliss all the time and with these techniques, you can hear that anytime you want to. Maharaji, you speak with forked tongue, dude. 'Those people - who made that commitment, went inside and enjoyed, and enjoy every day - will always be dear to me. They're listening to that heart that rarely speaks, I presume, every day of course. 'So, to what do I attach my anchor? If I am the wise one, then let me throw my anchor in that bay in which the anchor will hold. That's the anchorage that I want. Not to seek glory in my abilities to do things, but let me seek my glory in that beauty that lies inside of me.' Which is the heart, which speaks rarely, but every day. Hey, it lies inside of me. This gets clearer and clearer. Anchors away. 'Thought is God's gift to you, what you think about is your gift to yourself.' You know, for a guy who doesn't want you to think too much, you've got to think an awful lot to figure out what he's saying here, which is really nothing. 'Nothing celebrates life, like life' Mumbo jumbo. Sometimes we sit, and the moments are lost, each moment being a little soldier; and as time goes on, the soldiers are sacrificed. This is why premies turn off their minds, because minds demand sense of things. This makes no sense at all. Might as well put the mind to sleep. No war can be greater than the inner human conflict... Every human being like a king watches the tyranny of this incredible war. You are the king and you must decide, or else every single soldier will be gone and no longer will you reign... Zzzzzz... Wise are those who have secured the victory. This is turning into a comedy skit. I guess the guys who lose must be stupid jerks. Sure, makes sense to me. 'When you breathe, don't think of it as air. Think of it as the ultimate gift that a human being can be given. Understand the pleasure, the joy to be. And understand the pleasure - the pleasure of the joy to be content. Understand, accept - with humility... each breath that comes into you.' Oh, fucking please. You know, you really have to stretch to accept what M is saying, as wisdom. You have to do a real good job of fooling yourself, because what he's saying here is as thin as air. Thanks for all that, Jim. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 22:49:35 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: Jerry Subject: 40 year old perfect monster Message: Good responses Jerry. Of course my fav is the one about -you give your life to someone else-. he is of course referring to your wife and kids and anyone else you as a normal human may have to help out and work with. He of course is offering a way out. To serve only the perfect monster. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 00:14:36 (EST)
From: Big M Email: None To: Jim Subject: My REAL thoughts on WitnWisdom Message: When I want a tree to grow, I water the root not the leaves. But more often than not, I get a premie doing service at the residence to water it for me. The language of the heart, even the deaf can hear. And don’t they get extra big disability pensions? Goody! To be alive is to have existence; To have existence is to have consciousness; To have consciousness is to be able to enjoy; To be able to enjoy, one needs to be alive. To be a guru, one needs to be able to con. God has given you life and you are living it for someone else. Yeah, me, me, me. You gullible puppets of mine! Wisdom is simple. It's just doing what you will one day do, but doing it now. It's just as simple as that. Hang on. This doesn't make sense. I think I got that Kabir verse mixed up! Ah, those docile premies, they'll never know the difference! Learning and growing. That is what Knowledge is all about. A human being, with all the passion, falling in love with the most beautiful thing, again and again. Enjoying every moment of life. God I love spinning this crap. Of course, learning and growing is the antithesis of Knowledge! More like mentally stunted and in a rut. One day you will be completely alone. So try to be completely alone now. Because now you can recognize the beauty that is there. But don’t be so alone that you don’t come to my events! The heart rarely speaks, but when it does listen to it! Yeah, especially when you suffer from heartburn like I do! Marolyn, can you bring me the alka seltzer! That curry last night is really making me burp! In fact, it's incredibly important to, once in a while, make it go silent. If a human being wants to experience those simple things that reside within him or her, the hope, the love, the grace, the joy then, this has to go silent. And then in the silence, you begin to hear the simplicity of you. I think they might know this already, but what the hell, it always sounds good when it comes out - even for the 100th time. Knowledge was there before I was born and it will be there after I die.I never lose that perspective.Yet,there was only one person who made the real magic happen. Who, me? Nah, more like David Copperfield, but he’s more interested in Claudia Schiffer than in the guru caper. Those people - who made that commitment, went inside and enjoyed, and enjoy every day - will always be dear to me. But not as dear as those who give me extra cash and a share in their business. They get the front row and the odd ride in the Gulfstream. And not only will you be dear to me, but you will be dear to that divinity inside of you. Actually I don’t give a shit if your divinity does think you’re dear or not, as long as what you buy me is ‘dear’. So, to what do I attach my anchor? If I am the wise one, then let me throw my anchor in that bay in which the anchor will hold. That's the anchorage that I want. Not to seek glory in my abilities to do things, but let me seek my glory in that beauty that lies inside of me. Actually the anchorage I want is a $5000 a day mooring in Monte Carlo. All roads have an end and thus all journeys upon them will some day end. Find the universe within you and you may journey forever. But if you’re going to go on the road in the first place, do it in a Maserati. This path is for human beings There is no sacrifice Just a little listening Just a little understanding Just a little faith Just a little love. That's all it takes. And just a little brainwashing [snicker]! A true master is like a gardener He does not pull the tree out of the ground He plants the seed, and the process unfolds itself. What and get dirty? I told you before, I get a premie to do my gardening. Oh, alright. I'll do it for the video. But make sure you get a shot of me in the tractor! You are but flowers in the garden And as you bloom, so shall you wilt And for a time your fragrance will linger And in time that too will be gone But something else remains Something which can never die. Yeah, that gold tooth of yours, which I hope you’ll leave to me in your will. One breath at a time, This miracle of life touches you.' But just don’t go forgetting who told you this amazing mindblowing, earth shattering revelation. What is Knowledge? Knowledge is a stethoscope. Through this stethoscope we can tap into the inner being of who we really are. We can motivate ourselves inside, we can go deep inside and experience what we really consist of. Doh! Not stethoscope! I meant a colonic irrigation hose. Thought is God's gift to you, what you think about is your gift to yourself. But thank God, you don't think while a premie. Ha-ha! Question: Is life as difficult as it sometimes seems to be? Answer: Life is a tide; float on it. Go down with it and go up with it, but be detached. Then it is not difficult. I thought I was detached when as LOTU, I tried to walk on the tide, but for some reason, it didn’t work. I sank. Trying to be Jesus proved to be very difficult! Nothing celebrates life, like life. Or, if that fails, try Cognac - that always helps me celebrate! Happiness is not a consequence, it's a state of being. Or a state of the art $25million Gulfstream IV. Oh, baby, that little hummer sure brings me happiness! The war of all wars Sometimes we sit, and the moments are lost, each moment being a little soldier; and as time goes on, the soldiers are sacrificed. The war of all wars. No war can be greater than the inner human conflict... Every human being like a king watches the tyranny of this incredible war. You are the king and you must decide, or else every single soldier will be gone and no longer will you reign... Wise are those who have secured the victory. No wonder I have to tighten up security with all this warlike satsang - makes those fringe premies go completely bongo! The meaning of life: looking inside for enjoyment. But not me. I get mine when I look inside my Malibu mansion. That’s the meaning of my life. Recognize how precious life is. And oooh, how expensive! When you breathe, don't think of it as air. Think of it as the ultimate gift that a human being can be given. Understand the pleasure, the joy to be. And understand the pleasure - the pleasure of the joy to be content. Understand, accept - with humility... each breath that comes into you. And understand the pleasure that your constant thinking of each breath (about 32,557 times a day) gives to me as it drives you further into dysfunctional premiedom, and thus into my hip pocket. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 13:53:35 (EST)
From: Joy Email: None To: Big M Subject: My REAL thoughts on WitnWisdom Message: What's all this crap about Your thoughts are your gift to yourself and thought being God's gift to you? Give me a break! What about all the years and years of constantly meditate and remember Holy Name and never leave room for doubt in your mind? These were totally ingrained into premies in the 1970s. . . . now it's turned into your thoughts are your gift to yourself?!!? I don't believe I'm hearing this. It's obvious that he changes his message to suit the times (and, of course, to maximize that cash flow coming in). Whatever sells. He really makes me want to barf, the hypocrite. P.S. Whoever put up this post, it was great! Good laugh for the day! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 00:15:41 (EST)
From: Big M Email: None To: Joy Subject: My REAL thoughts on WitnWisdom Message: The pleasure's all mine - I really needed to share my thoughts. It's so lonely at the top, and I don't think people really understand the pressure on me to live a lie like this. It gives me the worst ulcers. Your god in human form, the Big M xxx PS. Joy, don't read anything that TD writes. I don't trust her at all. Once she thought I was the greatest thing since sliced bread, and now she doesn't. What does that say about her? I'll tell you! Unstable, that's what! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 00:53:43 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Some small analysis Message: 'When I want a tree to grow, I water the root not the leaves.' Good point perhaps. Heartening to see the Hamster re-entering the subject of botany, even if only in metaphor, after his earlier 'seeds are dead' debacle. But, really, what is he saying here? That there is a root of happiness that must be nurtured more than the outward realms of one's personality? The 'leaves' if you will? This metaphor has a certain appeal, not for how it relates to real life. That's a non-starter. In that respect it's nonsense. The appeal lies in the fact that man's discovery that roots, not leaves, derive the main nourishment for trees was a real discovery. This has nothing to do with spirituality and nothing to do with Maharaji. Plus, like anything else he's ever said, it's old, old, old, trite, trite, trite and, in the final analysis, meaningless. 'The language of the heart, even the deaf can hear.' I'm surprised he didn't get really creative and say something about the blind seeing. Now THAT would have been impressive. No, this is a complete embarrassment. I can't even comment on it. Keith looks profound and original compared to this shit. 'To be alive is to have existence; To have existence is to have consciousness; To have consciousness is to be able to enjoy; To be able to enjoy, one needs to be alive.' The first line is a tautology - scratch it. What's left? The second line is untrue. Ask any sponge. The third line is also untrue. Ask most living things. The fourth line is amazingly trite. One might just as easily say, in order to take a taxi in New York one must be alive. Meaningless. 'God has given you life and you are living it for someone else.' I'd send this one back to makeup. It's a mess. What the fuck is he saying anyhow? If God gave you life it's yours, right? Who should you be living it 'for'? Anyway, I have no idea what he's getting at here. No comment. 'Wisdom is simple. It's just doing what you will one day do, but doing it now. It's just as simple as that.' And all along I thought wisdom was some kind of knowledge. Now it seems that any rash action, done sooner rather than later, fits the bill. That's not what he meant? Fine, then what did he mean? You don't know? Then ask him. You can't? Too bad. Toss it. 'Learning and growing. That is what Knowledge is all about. A human being, with all the passion, falling in love with the most beautiful thing, again and again. Enjoying every moment of life.' This grotesque cartoon of a premie's ideal consciousness is so far from reality, I'm amazed Maharaji can still utter such buffoonery. The test is very simple. Look the Hamster in the eye next time you get a chance to ask him something and say, 'is this how your life is? Are you so goddammed full of passion and love for every moment you can barely contain yourself? Is that before or after you have a drink, fuck your mistress, throw a little temper tantrum such as you're so well known for? That time you had that big fight with Marolyn in the restaurant in L.A., was that because the love was just breaking you apart and you needed to do a little lila or something? Tell us, oh Hamster, oh my fat, smelly Hamster?' Watch the passion in his eyes as you're speaking. 'One day you will be completely alone. So try to be completely alone now. Because now you can recognize the beauty that is there.' OR, if that doesn't appeal, try surrounding yourself morning, noon and night, every single day of your life with sycophants, slves and yes, sex slaves. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 11:47:56 (EST)
From: seymour Email: None To: Jim Subject: Who's quotes? Message: A few quotes I extracted from my something I am reading at the moment by someone not at all wise or divine yet I think that they stand up against the wit and wisdom above. Anyone guess who? 'We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful what we pretend to be.' 'There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organization. If there are such things as angels, I hope that they are organized along the lines of the Mafia.' 'Take Care of the People, and God Almighty Will Take Care of Himself.' 'Puny man can do nothing at all to help or please God Almighty, and Luck is not the hand of God.' 'A purpose of human life, no matter who is controlling it, is to love whoever is around to be loved.' 'Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand.' 'Who is more to be pitied, a writer bound and gagged by policemen or one living in perfect freedom who has nothing more to say?' And this one is for the premies who refuse to discuss what they are doing with their lives with anyone who might raise an objection.... 'People are never stronger than when they have thought up their own arguments for believing what they believe. They stand on their own two feet that way' Cheers, Seymour Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 13:27:05 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: seymour Subject: Who's quotes? Message: Hey Seymour, Without reading the posts preceding yours (and not really caring what Maharaji says or said in the past) I picked your post to read. I agree with a lot of the quotes you cite, especially these: 'A purpose of human life, no matter who is controlling it, is to love whoever is around to be loved.' 'People are never stronger than when they have thought up their own arguments for believing what they believe. They stand on their own two feet that way' Thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 13:34:16 (EST)
From: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: seymour Subject: Who's quotes? Message: Vonnegut. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 13:41:03 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: Who's quotes? Message: Junior or Senior? Just kidding. (I think?) Anyone read Mark Vonnegut's Eden Express? His story is a story of what its like to 'go off the deep end' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 15:12:26 (EST)
From: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: Bobby Subject: Who's quotes? Message: So he wrote all those? I only recognized the one 'We are what we pretend to be . . .' I've always liked it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 15:26:04 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: seymour Subject: Who's quotes? Message: See-more I'm going to start calling you Mr. Two-times, because I always read your posts 2 times. SOunds like a great read. I'm definitely going to read it. I sure enjoyed Welcome to the MOnkey House and Cat's Cradle. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 08:24:46 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: Maharaji gets Mauldin Message: 'One day you will be completely alone. So try to be completely alone now. Because now you can recognize the beauty that is there.' Sometimes it's nice to be alone, but that statement is scary! Yes, one day I will be dead, my ashes scattered in the ocean. I won't have my kids, or my spouse, or my family. I won't eat another steak, or see the fall colors, or make love. It'll be over. I'll be 'alone.'(Thanks for reminding me, Maharaji...) So I should go practice this now? FAT CHANCE! I'm living life to the fullest, while I have it. I'm enjoying the people I love with while I can. Anyone who doesn't is a fool. Sorry, Maharaji. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 07:32:15 (EST)
From: Seymour Email: None To: Bobby & AOAJ Subject: Who's Quotes? Message: Glad you liked them, Bobby. And you're right Anand, it is Kurt Vonnegut who I am enjoying a revived interest in at present after reading what he says is his last book, 'Timequake' which I highly recommend. Take care, Seymour. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 07:52:17 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: VP Subject: I tried it back then Message: Yes VP, I tried it. In the late seventies and early eighties, I was following Maharaji to the letter. I cut off all relationships, I even lived on my own and I just did satsang, service and meditation. And you know what? I nearly went insane. The only emotional connection I tried to keep was between me and the Lord of the universe. And for about six years I kept this up and slowly but surely, I wasted my life and watched it go slowly down the drain. I was pushed from pillar to post by Maharaji's every whim. I became a beggar at his feet, just like he wanted me to. I gave all the spare money I had, which wasn't that much, to Maharaji to pay for his luxuries. The peak was when I didn't pay a traffic fine and ended up going to prison for two weeks for non payment of fine. STILL I believed that Maharaji would save me and somehow lift me up out of the wreck that was my life and put me at his holy, lotus feet. But nothing happened. The time in my life when I really wanted a close relationship with someone and settle down, I wasted it on the Lord of the Universe. I acted cold and detatched to the women I tried not to get to know at that time. I pushed people out of my life for Maharaji and sang arti to him every morning in my little room which I lived in. I was a devotee of the living Lord I thought, he knows what's happening to me, he will save me. But my life continued to go down the drain and I didn't realise it because there was Maharaji's satsang saying how beautiful it was. But it wasn't beautiful. It was a hell of loneliness and isolation. ANd in the end, what was there? I was alone, tired and exhausted, friendless, relationshipless, penniless and no peace of mind despite trying to meditate all the time. Then Maharaji's mission folded here in England and I was bereft and completely lost for a while. I had trashed my whole life for eleven years and now all I had left was failing health and a bleak future. Eventually, I made some sort of recovery although I regetted bitterly all the great opportunities which I'd wasted and which would never come again. Maharaji's trip stinks. It stinks to high heaven. He is like a leach sucking out the blood of the innocent. And that bastard is still at it. He's still out ruining people's lives for his own selfish gain. He must be stopped from spreading his lies any further. ANd guess who's going to stop him? We are. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 21:56:16 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Sir David Subject: I tried it back then Message: David, Thanks for sharing that story. It made me cry because I saw the same thing happen to someone I loved. I saw that person become a hollow shell. I saw him throw away a very beautiful and promising life. I am very glad that you are still here to tell about your experience. I wish I could wave my arms and give you back your eleven years. I wish I could heal your wounds. I hope that you can take some comfort in the fact that telling your story is helping someone else out there right now, even though they may never post and tell you. I wish it were true that someone can stop Maharaji. I don't think it can happen. As long as there are people who long for more in their lives, people searching for peace, sincere seekers like we were, there will be people ripe for the cult picking. I DO think that we can make a difference in the lives of some people. Every unhappy person who gets help here is important. You have your faith in God and your faith in life, love and peace which you have written about often here. You have a good sense of humor and compassion for others. I'm glad you aren't practising for death anymore. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 15:21:15 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Sir David Subject: I tried it back then Message: Sir D, I'll bet you a million pounds that the 6 years of so-called 'bliss' NEVER matched the feeling you get when you feel the little arms of your children go around your neck and give you a hug On the positive side (if there is one) it sure makes you appreciate everything you have now, don't it? But why did we have to go through the hell to realize this? Any insights into this, Sir D of the cheese? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 19:45:40 (EST)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Helen Subject: I tried it back then Message: I was brainwashed and in a cult. I really WAS. From 1972 to 1983 I was well into it. I had been led to believe that Maharaji was the Lord and there was no way out, even though most of it was pure hell. WHere was the bliss? Occasionally, I might experience something from some meditation but those times were few and far between. Most of those years were a long, drawn out heavy trip which was a nightmare for me, personally. I don't think I can give any reason why I went through it all. I just did. I believed Maharaji was the Lord and I was his devotee. I thought that was the truth. And I was sincerely following what I believed was the truth, even though it felt wrong for most of the time. I could never understand why my own feelings of love and compassion for other people were not shown by the Lord of the Universe. Now I know why - he wasn't the Lord. ANd his heavy trip wasn't the truth. The way I see it, I was conned, good and proper by an Indian fake. The years I spent in the ashram, the years I spent as a beggar trying to get back into an ashram, it was all a big mistake. When it all boils down to it, you have to lead your own life and do your own thing. There are no masters here, in my opinion. I was trapped into a cult at a vulnerable time in my life back in 1972. It took decades to realise what had happened. If I could go back in time I would never have joined Maharaji's cult. It did no good to me, at all. And it took years to make some sort of recovery. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 20:20:36 (EST)
From: Sir D, again Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Helen Subject: Just to elaborate further Message: Helen; I now realise you wondered if there was any divine purpose to what I went through. I don't think it's any more a divine purpose than if someone gets into a bad marriage for a decade or two. I think we do things, despite all that happens to us. Actually, in the first year I had knowledge, I did get into meditation quite deep and had a good experience at times. That was when I was not a part of DLM and doing my own thing. Then I joined DLM and moved into an ashram and my meditation experiences just fizzled away. These days, I do some meditation now and then, when I really feel like I want to do some and I usually have a nice, peaceful experience. It's more like relaxation therapy when I do it now. I don't meditate every day and might just suddenly get the urge to do some, once or twice a week. So different from the old days. And so much easier, too. WHich just goes to show what a stupid trip it is that Maharaji is running. I mean, I can feel happy without doing any meditation or anything like that. But I'm also quite realaxed to do some meditation if I feel like it. Hey, no sweat! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 22:36:31 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Sir D, Subject: Glad you're here Message: Sir D of the flaming cheesehat, I am so glad you made it through the morass (sp) of the trip. when I think of you living in some little room, cut off from humanity, doing satsang, service, & meditation, I think 'yech, poor Sir D'. It is, like VP said, preparing for death and not living life. Glad you are here with us still. You're right, it was so unnecessary, an unnecessary burden. We thought we were moving forward, but we were really moving backward and then had to catch up and recover later. I don't know if there's any divine purpose to it at all. There are plenty of ways to learn, but ordeal seems to be an effective way (at least for me). But I certainly have come to a place where I've had enough suffering & pain of the self-induced variety. Life has enough suffering, & loss already. I like your attitude about meditation. It makes it so much more enjoyable. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 15:10:52 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: VP Subject: Maharaji gets Mauldin Message: Was that a play on words, ie Mauldin as in Carl Mauldin instead of maudlin (or however you spell it)? Is Maharaji going to get Carl Mauldin? I agree with you, Veep. This is part of that 'attachment is bad, dependency is bad' bullshit passed down from the guru. YOu were supposed to be a detached lotus blossom unsullied by such gross things as love for your spouse, children, and friends. That detached state is sort of a scary nightmare. WHo needs it. I mean I enjoy being alone and enjoy my own company, but boy it gets boring after awhile. People are hard wired to be in a community not living in a cave somewhere, contemplating their navels. What a bogus philosophy the guru-meditation-detachment trip is Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 15:15:32 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Veep Subject: Detachment Message: I shudder at the idea of people taking this detachment thing too far with their child-rearing. For their survival and well-being children need their parents to be attached, & besotted with them, at the least committed to them Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 17:27:47 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Helen Subject: Detachment Message: OOPs! I forgot you asked me what the childrearing advice in Be Here Now was. It was actually a little story about these parents who are freaking out because their child is crying and their world starts falling apart, they can't go to the store, their schedule is going to be blown, etc. Anyway, they resolve it by calming down and understanding that children cry and that is just the way it is. They give their kids some love instead of freaking out over the crying. The crying stops and everyone can go to the store. :)Wish things always worked out that way with kids, huh? Anyway, it was a nice message about loving our kids. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 22:43:47 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: VP Subject: McDOnald's: Be Here Now Message: Yup, that is good advice. Always a good idea to try to not have too many things on the agenda that you're trying to get done, when you have kids. I remember when I first had my little one, it once took me an entire day to make a pot of soup. Now I head for McDOnald's about once a week...something I swore I'd never do.....It sings to me...'You're tired, you're hungry, you've got a cranky kid in the car....I'll take care of you my darling. Pull in here' It's something in the smell of those fries. McD's really has that working parent thing figured out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 17:11:54 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Helen Subject: Mauldin Message: I have heard this term used in context only. It was used to describe someone who is getting deeply engrossed in thinking about or discussing the squalid reality of life. (If you are describing death or depression--getting really heavy--you may be scolded, 'Don't be so mauldin.') I always thought the term came from political cartoons by Bill Mauldin. He drew cartoons which depicted the life of the enlisted man during WWII. I could be wrong, though. It could have come from Carl. Maybe someone else knows the correct origin of this slang term. I used to work with this guy who was a real downer. I never met a gloomier gus. He was a nice guy, just always in a funk. Fittingly, his name was Mauldin. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 17:19:21 (EST)
From: Sister Helen, schoolmarm Email: None To: VP Subject: Mauldin Message: It's 'maudlin' meaning 'weakly emotional, effusively sentimental' but I knew what you meant: that GM was being Morbid which I think goes along with the definition too. I've dusted off my dictionary and have been using it a lot since finding the forum. Y'all been making me work my brain real good. (: Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 17:31:23 (EST)
From: VP the headmaster Email: None To: Sister Helen, schoolmarm Subject: Mauldin Message: effusively sentimental, exactly. Morbid speaks to that quote, too. Good call! I didn't even know that was a real word. I thought it was slang referring to some artist. Ha ha! Where the hell is MY dictionary? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 22:47:17 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: VP the headmaster Subject: Mauldin Message: De-gaaaaas, you Bonnard-head, I am like so Van Goghed! (That means 'Duh, you are so impressionistic and I am crazy) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 11:40:17 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Sister Helen, schoolmarm Subject: Mauldin Message: It also means 'drunk enough to be emotionally silly'. I too have dusted off my dictionary. Etymologically, the word originally was used to depict Mary Magdelene as a weeping penitent. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 12:51:45 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Mauldin Message: I saw that too, in the dictionary. I think of Tammy Faye Baker, as depicted on old Sat. Night Lives too (the tears pouring out of her eyes, streaks of mascara rolling down her face) (: Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 21:05:06 (EST)
From: Saul Email: None To: Jim Subject: Maharaji's Wit and Wisdom Message: Hi Jim, I get the feeling that you are taking the wrong approach criticizing M's 'Wit and Wisdom' here. It may not be obvious from a transcript, but I don't think that the stuff told to aspirants is meaningless drivel or stupid. I think that the message really IS profound and that M is able to connect with people on a deep level while gradually slipping in the idea that you're about to have a 'master.' It's really pretty horrifying when you think about it. Anyway, to my mind, the basic problem is that the whole thing is a nasty trap, not that the bait isn't so appealing. Saul Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 21:10:53 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Saul Subject: Maharaji's Wit and Wisdom Message: Saul, There's nothing the least bit profound about Maharaji's words. At least not that I can tell. What there is, though, is an AIR of profundity or depth as if he's wearing his 'wise man' costume and saying stuff true to type. I get your point, yes I do. You're right that even IF Maharaji was selling some valid points he insidiously sneaks his own agenda in with them. But I'm sorry I can't appreciate his words as you might. Really, can you tell me what in any of these quotes makes sense? I see them as empty phrases that, like abstract art or rorsarch ink blots, say more about the interpreter than the speaker. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 22:11:23 (EST)
From: Saul Email: None To: Jim Subject: Maharaji's Wit and Wisdom Message: | | Jim says: |Really, can you tell me what in any of these quotes makes sense? |I see them as empty phrases that, like abstract art or rorsarch |ink blots, say more about the interpreter than the speaker. | Jim, I'm not sure if I can adequately explain this but I'll give it a shot. I think that there is a natural tendency for experience to be encoded into unconcious behavior. For example, you can tie your shoelaces without being aware of what exactly is happening. The problem is, it seems that this process can continue until most of your life is like that, so that you can end up living it and yet still not experience it, just like you don't really experience tying your shoelaces. This is ultimately a bad thing, because being alive etc. is really rather nice. So, when M says, | |'When you breathe, don't think of it as air. Think of it as the |ultimate gift that a human being can be given. Understand the |pleasure, the joy to be. And understand the pleasure - the |pleasure of the joy to be content. Understand, accept - with |humility... each breath that comes into you.' | This is a reminder to breath conciously, not like tying shoelaces, and a reminder that breathing is a pleasant thing to do. Of course, M didn't invent breathing conciously by a very long shot, but this kind of reminder is where, I think, the effect comes from. It's not that it's transmitting any new information, its just a reminder that causes people to interrupt their unconcious routines and thoughts and experience things more simply and directly. This is 'profound' in the sense that it can have a big effect on how your experience life. M then uses this truly profound experience as bait, getting all these poor people in a trap for M's personal benefit. There must be someone who does this in a truly beneficial way? One of the things that I thought would be useful on this site is advice on where to go instead of M for this kind of thing. Saul Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 22:23:16 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Saul Subject: Maharaji's Wit and Wisdom Message: Saul, I just got back from browsing in this huge bookstore in town. Spent a while in fiction (where I got Vonnegut's 'Timequake' and Richler's 'Barney's Vision') and even longer in Science. I walked by Religion and I stopped at New Age just long enough to snarl at the mindless rip-offs filling the shelves. The science stuff, though, was pretty exciting to look through. We picked up something the title of which I can't recall and Laurie, my girlfriend, has just driven home with it. I think there's a lot of exciting stuff to fill one's imagination with. Lots. But the notion that the breath is a 'gift' is not among those ideas. The problem is that, not only is the breath not a gift, the concept of a 'giver' and all that entails obscures the truth about life from us, in my opinion. Admittedly, Maharaji says some very nice, safe platitudes that should be perfectly acceptable to any religious person. After all, he talks about loving God, doesn't he? And thanking the Creator for life and all that. But I don't accept that religious framework even in the most general terms. So, for me, Maharaji's words are particularly meaningless. That is I can't even give him credit for ripping off safe ideas. Some might but I don't. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 00:51:09 (EST)
From: Saul Email: None To: Jim Subject: Maharaji's Wit and Wisdom Message: |Jim: | |After all, he talks about loving God, doesn't he? And thanking |the Creator for life and all that. But I don't accept that |religious framework even in the most general terms. | I don't go for that kind of stuff either. | |So, for me, Maharaji's words are particularly meaningless. That |is I can't even give him credit for ripping off safe ideas. | For me, it makes it worse. It's like a Physician who partially helps people but then tricks them into thinking that they have to pay him every week for a placebo otherwise they'll get sick again. I guess I'm a little concerned that calling M's message 'meaningless' isn't the best way to warn people away. | |I just got back from browsing in this huge bookstore in town. |Spent a while in fiction (where I got Vonnegut's 'Timequake' and |Richler's 'Barney's Vision') and even longer in Science. I |walked by Religion and I stopped at New Age just long enough to |snarl at the mindless rip-offs filling the shelves. The science |stuff, though, was pretty exciting to look through. We picked up |something the title of which I can't recall and Laurie, my |girlfriend, has just driven home with it. | Dang. You're reminding me that I haven't been to a really good bookstore in a long time. The best I normally can do is Borders in Chicago. I'm a hard science type myself and mostly go for the Math & Physics sections. I used to pay no attention to new agey stuff either, but now I think that it's only 95% mindless rip-offs and I occasionally look for the last 5% (I sometimes read Thich Nhat Hanh). There's alot of exciting science happening now, but most science books are pretty bad, just like the new agey section. Cheers, Saul Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 22:57:54 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Saul Subject: Maharaji's Wit and Wisdom Message: Maharaji says: 'When you breathe, don't think of it as air. Think of it as the |ultimate gift that a human being can be given. Understand the |pleasure, the joy to be. And understand the pleasure - the |pleasure of the joy to be content. Understand, accept - with |humility... each breath that comes into you.' | Saul explains: This is a reminder to breath conciously, not like tying shoelaces, and a reminder that breathing is a pleasant thing to do. Of course, M didn't invent breathing conciously by a very long shot, but this kind of reminder is where, I think, the effect comes from. It's not that it's transmitting any new information, its just a reminder that causes people to interrupt their unconcious routines and thoughts and experience things more simply and directly. This is 'profound' in the sense that it can have a big effect on how your experience life. Saul, you can say this about anything. Just be conscious, period, not of your breath (although, if you like, by all means), but of where you are, what's happenning around you, what you're doing. Hey, be conscious that you're conscious, why not. M has placed special emphasis on the breath and claims that focusing on it gives a special reward, and we used to believe that that special reward was by his grace. He didn't encourage us to think otherwise. But I can see your point. By encouraging these simple acts of consciousness, M could be considered an oasis from the world. Too bad he's the leader of a cult. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 23:27:41 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Maharaji's Wit and Wisdom Message: Jerry, Very true. And not only that, if being aware of your breath is for the purpose of being aware of 'life' so that you experience it fully, why is M just saying to be conscious one or two hours a day? I know years ago, he said to 'remember holy name' 24 hours a day, but he has changed that considerably over the years. Being conscious, is kind of like the Buddhist concept of being 'mindful.' But Maharaji wants also to be worshipped for telling you to be 'mindful' although it's not even clear he's telling premies to do even THAT! He just says to meditate twice a day and be grateful to him. That's all he's got to offer and it's pretty meager. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 09:02:51 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Maharaji's Wit and Wisdom Message: Well said, Jerry. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 15:37:46 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Saul Subject: Maharaji's Wit and Wisdom Message: I see what you are saying Saul, I really do. It's not these platitudes that remind people to be grateful for the simple things that are insidious, it's the taking away of people's personal power that is insidiuous. There are tons of people writing books that deal with having more gratitude, simple abundance, balance, etc. These can be helpful to an extent but at times all these self-help books seem kinda pathetic. Some of them seem to infantilize people a little--ie, affirmation books that proclaim that everything is OK and wonderful. As if reading enough of these books could make me believe that everything is all beautiful and wonderful. Well, everything is NOT beautiful and wonderful, and if you're looking for someone who can show you that it is, that's a kind of self-delusion, not self-help. I dunno. My advice to you, Saul--Be your own Guru. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |