Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 28 | |
From: Oct 30, 1998 |
To: Nov 18, 1998 |
Page: 5 Of: 5 |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 03:23:14 (EST)
From: Golden Oldie Email: None To: JIM et al Subject: JIM read this please Message: Hello Jim This is a copy of the message I put in the 'friends of Maharaji' forum. 'I just had to say how refreshing it is to hear a premie speak up for a little honest expression.' yes.. it is sad that you find it so rare. There are lots of 'bongos' like me. 'I have to ask, doesn't the fact that these jokers have lost their moral compass in that respect tell you something about their 'experience'?' Blindly folowing someone's words does not provide the true mirror of life. They do not understand that 'surrender' does not mean 'self-abandonment'. 'And doesn't the fact that Maharaji is the worst offender in terms of avoiding challenge, whitewashing the past and obfuscating like crazy tell you something about HIS experience?' I really don't know why he doesn't address these issues. My guess is that he is finding it difficult to handle his own humanness or it is some lila so far out that noone understands [s]..... my opinion is that he needs to speak up for himself. Even if he says 'I don't have to or want to answer these questions'. Thanks for the invite to the ex-premie.org. At present I don't have continual access to a computer; I can sometimes use friends machines. I noticed that the threads move very fast. I'm not sure I could keep up on a daily basis. Having said that the pace here is a bit of a joke. Anyway I'll post this on both forums! JSCA GO Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 10:37:44 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Golden Oldie Subject: To Golden Oldie Message: Glad you posted, Golden Oldie. Is it Lila or is it GM's humanness? Hmmmmmmmmmm.... You're asking some good questions, and since you are not abandoning yourself, I'm sure you will find the answers. (I'm not being sarcastic here. Sometimes it is difficult to convey tone in this format) Best wishes to you, Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 10:56:51 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Golden Oldie Subject: JIM read this please Message: GO, Interesting that the only response I saw you get from a premie, Bruce Parmentier, was that he suspects you're not really a premie. After all, what premie could speak up for free speech and honesty when, instead, he could simply write how grateful he is to the master, etc. etc.? Go, I've got a bunch of questions for you, hopefully all difficult. My goal is to force you to admit that you maintaining your faith in Maharaji compromises your integrity much more than you currently understand. Forcing you to see that fact without admitting it is a distant second choice. Ruffling your feathers, belief-wise, comes in third. Game? First, though, I have to ask you whether you're willing to discuss this at all. Fine, but how about with your real name? If not, can we talk about why? Really, where does that leave you in Maharaji's World? Think about it. Second, what's your opinion of the family split? Lila? If so, would that go for all the other power grabs and contests in the entire 'lineage', all the stuff documented so well by David Lane and excerpted in part on JM's page? Are all these 'gurus' sipping chai together in their Hindu Liberation Palace? Third, is thee anything at all Maharaji could ever do that might not constitute 'lila'? Fourth -- for now -- when was the last time YOU watched 'Life of Brian'? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 13:11:45 (EST)
From: Golden Oldie Email: None To: Jim Subject: JIM read this please Message: Jim, It's fine by me if you want to ask me questions....I'll answer them if I have an answer. I'll tell you if I don't know or don't care. 'My goal is to force you to admit that you maintaining your faith in Maharaji compromises your integrity much more than you currently understand.' I understand this to mean that you are offering me a reality test. That is fine by me and appreciated. 'Forcing you to see that fact without admitting it is a distant second choice.' Well if I see it, I hope I'll admit it. 'Ruffling your feathers, belief-wise, comes in third.' Well that's good for any breathing sentient being(s) 'Second, what's your opinion of the family split? Lila? ' When the family split, I regarded BBJ as 'getting into his mind'. I also , for a short period ,thought that they'de done it on purpose because the Indians couln't handle M's 'westernisation'. Then some of BBj's mahatmas either tried to or did beat up Rajaji... I considered BBJ gone. I thought he(BBJ) really wasn't meditating and his life was much too externalised. I read an interview with Mataji in an engliush-language Indian magazine in about 1975(I wish I would have kept it). She was asked why she didn't follow her youngest son any more. Her answer was 'Well, he said I wasn't to be Mother of the Universe any more..... how could that be?'.... and BBJ in the interview said that M didn't fulfil/do certain Hindu precepts..... all this showed me how much maya they were in. This showed me conclusively that being physically close to Him was not necessarily an advantage. In fact it often proved the opposite. '..is there anything at all Maharaji could ever do that might not constitute 'lila'?' When I used the owrd 'lila' in my first post I put [s] after it which I thought meant 'smile' in cybertalk. I was taking the mickey. I watched the Life of Brian last about 2 months ago. I have tried not to make this too long. JSCA Golden Oldie(Elliot...... ok... I just didn't like Bruce's attitude, a human failing of mine) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 19:59:43 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Golden Oldie Subject: JIM read this please Message: GO, I think the BBJ question is truly insurmountable for anyone trying to maintain faith in Maharaji. Most deal with this by avoiding the issue altogether or, if need be, addressing the matter but simply not putting their mind to it with any real weight. However, you seem to be up for an honest stroll into the the thicket so let's go. Item: BBJ was not just close to Maharaji. He had Maharaji's full endorsement as a 'realized soul'. The first time I ever saw my beloved master, at the Ally Pally (Guru Puja '73), Maharaji explained that if for any reason something happened to him any one of his Holy Family could take over as Satguru. Were you there? Do you remember that? I've got to be honest, I THINK it was there. It might not have been. It could have been something he said in a Q&A then but, no, I'm almost certain it was at the hall itself. I remember thinking how great he must be if he's even higher than your every day Perfect Master, you know? Thees things have a way of leaving an indelible impression on a 19 year-old's mind. But if not there particularly, there were many, many instances when Maharaji vouched for the realized nature of his family. Not once did he ever say or do a single thing to even control, let alone eradicate, that notion. So, if BBJ was NOT 'fully realized', Maharaji was either mistaken or lying. Take your pick. Either works for me. If he was wrong, then it calls into question his understanding about everything. All bets are off. He no longer deserves any benefit of the doubt on any pronouncement, whether it be his argument for vegetarianism on the basis that 'seeds are dead' or his proclamation that he will indeed bring peace to the world. He certainly forfeits any right to ask anyone to forego their own analysis of anything and adopt his explanation on blind faith. He becomes a big blunderer and one wonders how in the world he can claim to any knowledge whatsoever. Capiche? If, on the other hand, Maharaji was lying, which is, essentially, the 'lila' option, one wonders where the lila ends. Right now, if you like, you can go to a nice, little website dedicated to BBJ. Have you seen it? Here's the link: BBJ If you take a few minutes to tour the site you'll see that BBJ's hoodwinked his followers with a bio that mentions not the kid brother he once heralded as Jesus .... no, sorry, I forgot, BBJ was Jesus. Well, heralded him as One Important Lord kind of guy. You know what I mean. I've talked with two of BBJ's current followers, the young guy who put up this page and BBJ's long-time co-ordinator in Manchester, I think it was. Both of these guys sear by their 'experience' etc. etc. Both are perfectly content with their 'Perfect Master' BBJ. Now, stand back a moment. Anyone uninvolved with the scene who stumbled upon it would find what? Two middle-aged Indian guys both claiming to be the one-and-only heir to their father's special holy office. Both try to fool newcomers into thinking the other does not exist. Both hide behind the skirts of their faithful who, like faithful anywhere, ask no questions. You might see some great difference here but for all intents and purposes I say we're talking Tweedledum and Tweedledee. Tell me, Go, how you can truthfully satsify yourself, let alone anyone else, that that's not the case. But it gets better. This is not the only forked branch of the tree. Almost every guru in the chain has had his kingdom split in legacy. Shri Hans himself was just another unnaointed pretender to the throne like, well what do you know? Like BBJ, I'd say. And don't you think the various camp followers of Shri Hans or whoever was his opponent didn't also have their reasons for claiming one not the other was 'most definitely, beyond all doubt' the real McCoy? But doesn't it begin to look a bit like a scene from Gulliver's Travels after a while? Go, it comes down to this. You know, as well as I, that 'lila' can excuse anything. It can make BBJ the real Lord and Maharaji just a test or the other way around. Hell, for all we know, Maharaji's only fool's gold and the great Guru Mayi -- or her brother, take your pick -- is the master of our times. At a certain point you have to either abandon all reason or use it. Anyway, I'm interested in what you would tell BBJ's longtime follower in Manchester. The guy claims to get nothing but enlightenment from his great guru and has been doing so for over twent years now. He's mature, erudite, eloquent. I felt that I had nothing on him education-wise. I'm sure you'd find him every bit your intellectual equal too (or at least in the same ballpark for what it's worth). Yet he's completely sure that HE's following the real Rawat and you're just following the Rat Rawat. What would you tell him? P.S. What's with all the strikethroughs? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 04:45:22 (EST)
From: Golden Oldie Email: None To: Jim Subject: reply-part 1 Message: Hi Jim, I received K in early 1974, so I was not at Ally Pally. Also I lived in Jerusalem at the time and the whole holy family worship thing was not a big thing for me nor did I take it too seriously. In fact there were only a handful of premies there at that time and I can only remember 2 premies speaking of the holy family stuff in personal conversations. I did have a 'darshan' dream of BBJ and I once dreamt that I went out to dinner with (a young)mataji. That's the extent of my 'experience' of the family. Some of my background. Some time in early 1973 a friend of mine, who was at the Hebrew University said 'Hey Eli, there's a film tonight about some child Guru from India, do you wanna come?'. (I remember thinking at the time 'Oh no not another group coming to Jerusalem to save the world'. At that time Jerusalem was full of religiously oriented groups spouting stuff like that.) Anyway I didn't ask him the name of this guru and didn't go…however that night I had a very short dream where I saw a young person's face wearing a large crown. At that time, I knew nothing of gurus or eastern religious culture. I had never heard of M or Hare Krishna or maharishi. The only group I knew of were Children of God who were trying to recruit in Jerusalem. Anyway I eventually heard about Maharaji at the end of '73. When I went to my first satsang at the ashram I immediately recognised one of the pictures on the altar as being the person I saw in my dream earlier that year. I received K in early '74 from mahatma Gitanand. Without giving my whole story here, suffice it to say that I did go into the ashram(in the UK) and stayed until about 1980 when the ashram evaporated. I cannot remember any satsang-giver ever revering the holy family. I had a strong experience in the K -session and have enjoyed the meditation ever since. ( I just remembered that once when I was staying at an ashram(circa '75-76), I found a tape labelled 'satsang', so I put it on before Arti. I could not understand why all the premies there totally became weird, I was later admonished for putting on a tape of BBJ. I had never heard him speak before nor could I understand why the premies seemed almost scared of him.) Now I’ll address your post. Jim said “I think the BBJ question is truly insurmountable for anyone trying to maintain faith in Maharaji That depends what one’s faith is based on. I took K because I wanted my own connection to Truth/God/soul/teacher/perfect master/avatar or whatever people call it. I hope that I have never followed anything because of Maharaji’s(or anyone else’s) words alone. To me he is The One that can pass on the Knowledge. That doesn’t mean that I ‘follow’ everything he says…not that he says much to follow. As a human being he clearly has a lot to learn. Let’s face it, no master(perfect or otherwise) has really made any significant change in the world for good. Their reported acts have only succeeded in making another religion and creating more division . (I have a feeling that the reason why they failed is because they were not selfless(maybe I mean transpersonal,,,I’m really not sure what word to use) enough and couldn’t resist being worshipped in some way.) Jim said>”BBJ was not just close to Maharaji. He had Maharaji's full endorsement as a 'realized soul' I don’t know that he said this but I have no reason to disbelieve you, (I remember when I first came to K that many premies believed his brothers to be Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva…..I thought the paradigm was fun but it meant nothing to me.) I’m sure he believed it at the time. He may not have been aware how many premies hung onto his every word, but he must certainly have become aware at some point and should have explained what was going on(and still should). Continued…part 2 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 04:46:31 (EST)
From: Golden Oldie Email: None To: Jim Subject: reply part 2 Message: Jim said>” Now, stand back a moment. Anyone uninvolved with the scene who stumbled upon it would find what? Two middle-aged Indian guys both claiming to be the one-and-only heir to their father's special holy office. Both try to fool newcomers into thinking the other does not exist. Both hide behind the skirts of their faithful who, like faithful anywhere, ask no questions. You might see some great difference here but for all intents and purposes I say we're talking Tweedledum and Tweedledee. Tell me, Go, how you can truthfully satsify yourself, let alone anyone else, that that's not the case. I agree this is Tweedledum and Tweedledee. Without any personal experience it’s a waste of time. Jim said>” Anyway, I'm interested in what you would tell BBJ's longtime follower in Manchester. The guy claims to get nothing but enlightenment from his great guru and has been doing so for over twenty years now. He's mature, erudite, eloquent. I felt that I had nothing on him education-wise. I'm sure you'd find him every bit your intellectual equal too (or at least in the same ballpark for what it's worth). Yet he's completely sure that HE's following the real Rawat and you're just following the Rat Rawat. What would you tell him? I would probably be interested to hear about his meditation experience if he would discuss it with me. I may also tell him that when I was touring around India (circa 1983-4), I met some people who had been initiated by one of BBj’s mahatmas and when I showed them my picture of Maharaji(it was the child-picture) they said that the child in the picture appeared to all of them (4 people) but they didn’t know who he was…..Mahatma Krishnasukanand had the same thing happen when he was touring South India. I don’t know how much weight this would hold though. If he was willing, I would ask him to ask BBJ about the revisionism and I’d have to tell him that my Maharaji will not address the matter. JSCA Golden Oldie |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 08:12:24 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Golden Oldie Subject: reply part 2 Message: I would probably be interested to hear about his meditation experience if he would discuss it with me. And if he described meditation that was every bit as impressive as yours? Don't forget, BBJ and those who joined him from M's ranks traded in the same currency that all the premies did in terms of meditation hopes, expectations and beliefs. In fact, if you look at the BBJ materials you'll see he's talking the same line he did back when he was Maharaji's main man. So, assume for argument's sake if you will, that you're not able to safely distinguish your meditation from his. Then what? Sure, you smile and turn away and all that but what do you tell yourself? To forget about it? What? I may also tell him that when I was touring around India (circa 1983-4), I met some people who had been initiated by one of BBj’s mahatmas and when I showed them my picture of Maharaji(it was the child-picture) they said that the child in the picture appeared to all of them (4 people) but they didn’t know who he was…..Mahatma Krishnasukanand had the same thing happen when he was touring South India. I don’t know how much weight this would hold though. How much do YOU think it would hold? Not much as far as I'm concerned. And what's the point anyway? That Maharaji, the TRUE brother, is sending out rescue beacons to all the poor folk defrauded by the FALSE brother? And what? Only some of the really pure were able to tune into Radio Free BBJ Followers? That's ridiculous... or is it? Is that what you believe? If he was willing, I would ask him to ask BBJ about the revisionism and I’d have to tell him that my Maharaji will not address the matter. What would BBJ's answers do for you? Are you saying you'd open your mind to him and afford him an opportunity to persuade you that he's not a fraud himself and that maybe Maharaji is? And what would you tell him if he asked you your opinion of Maharaji's character given that he refuses to address the matter? Mind you, I guess you've already told us that by saying: 'As a human being he clearly has a lot to learn. Let’s face it, no master(perfect or otherwise) has really made any significant change in the world for good. Their reported acts have only succeeded in making another religion and creating more division . (I have a feeling that the reason why they failed is because they were not selfless(maybe I mean transpersonal,,,I’m really not sure what word to use) enough and couldn’t resist being worshipped in some way.)' Would you tell Maharaji this to his face? How about not to his face but in public? Would you sign your real name to this? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 10:38:13 (EST)
From: Golden Oldie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Part1 Message: GO said'I would probably be interested to hear about his meditation experience if he would discuss it with me. ' Jim said'And if he described meditation that was every bit as impressive as yours?' I would certainly have to accept that Maharaji is not the only giver of K. I would also have to re-look at the whole concept of 'giving' Knowledge. I should add that over the years I have met and spoken with lots of meditators including those that have the same techniques. I have not yet met any non-premie who has a comparable experience. I believe that if I did meet such a person, it wouldn't change my own experience…. nothing has up to now. Jim said'So, assume for argument's sake if you will, that you're not able to safely distinguish your meditation from his. Then what? Sure, you smile and turn away and all that but what do you tell yourself? To forget about it? What? ' If I was that convinced that someone has Knowledge without going to Maharaji, then I would disassociate myself from Maharaji totally. That does not mean I would stop meditating…. I really enjoy it. GO said'I may also tell him that when I was touring around India (circa 1983-4), I met some people who had been initiated by one of BBj’s mahatmas and when I showed them my picture of Maharaji(it was the child-picture) they said that the child in the picture appeared to all of them (4 people) but they didn’t know who he was…..Mahatma Krishnasukanand had the same thing happen when he was touring South India. I don’t know how much weight this would hold though. ' Jim said>'How much do YOU think it would hold? Not much as far as I'm concerned. And what's the point anyway? That Maharaji, the TRUE brother, is sending out rescue beacons to all the poor folk defrauded by the FALSE brother? And what? Only some of the really pure were able to tune into Radio Free BBJ Followers? That's ridiculous... or is it? Is that what you believe? ' I agree that it would not hold. Certainly if someone told me the reverse it would not affect me. But it may mean something to BBJ's devotee. GO said'If he was willing, I would ask him to ask BBJ about the revisionism and I’d have to tell him that my Maharaji will not address the matter. Jim said>'What would BBJ's answers do for you?' I suspect not very much. Don't forget that YOU set up the scenario and I have done my best to speculate on the answer. I am not overly interested in BBj anymore than I am interested in sai baba or freejon etc. I still talk to the Hare Krishnas because they are still on the streets in London. Jim said'Are you saying you'd open your mind to him and afford him an opportunity to persuade you that he's not a fraud himself and that maybe Maharaji is? ' Funnily enough when I stayed at maharaji's ashram in Maharoli(Delhi)(circa 1984) I wanted to go to Hardwar (prem Nagar) to give satsang to BBJ. None of the premies would come with me (they thought I was crazy) and in the end I didn't succeed in getting there because no taxi driver would take me (there were some political problems around that time and the taxis wouldn't go there). If I ever get to go to India again, I will visit Prem Nagar and if BB is there I'll try and speak to him. Comtinued in part2 |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 11:32:34 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Golden Oldie Subject: Further Message: I would certainly have to accept that Maharaji is not the only giver of K. I would also have to re-look at the whole concept of 'giving' Knowledge. I should add that over the years I have met and spoken with lots of meditators including those that have the same techniques. I have not yet met any non-premie who has a comparable experience. I believe that if I did meet such a person, it wouldn't change my own experience…. nothing has up to now. Are you saying that you have some reason for believing that people initiated by BBJ have any less potent experiences than those clicked by M? I mean, setting aside the anecdote we've both agreed doesn't 'hold much water'. Do you believe that BBJ himself sees a lesser light than you? How about Bhole Ji? They were both clicked by Shri Hans? Did their spiritual experience decrease after they left M? If so, how much? Altogether? But here's another way of approaching this: is there any other fact or phenomena you could imagine that might force you to rethink your concept of giving k? How about neuroscience? Did you read that article by Tom Wolfe about brain research that I linked to above under 'very interesting article'? Would you please? Is there anything else in its context which you could imagine upsetting your current notion? I am not overly interested in BBj anymore than I am interested in sai baba or freejon etc. I still talk to the Hare Krishnas because they are still on the streets in London. Sorry, Go, we've got our first credibility gap on this one. Item - Bal Bhagwan Ji is the eldest son of your guru's former guru and the eldest brother of your guru. He's one of three brothers each of whom you, at least superficially worshipped at some point in your life (ever say 'Ananda Kanda Ki Jai!'?). The one brother who hasn't bolted from M still has revered although unstated status in the group. BBJ was, as I've said, your guru's main spokesman until he left. He explained much ostensibly on behalf of your guru whether or not you .... oh that's right, you came along just as he was leaving or something, right? Well, you still must have had lots of occasion to read BBJ's words in M publications. Don't tell me you never thumbed through a copy of 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?' More importantly, BBJ claims that he, not your guru, is the proper heir to your guru's guru's legacy. Many who were there when M took over concur including M's late mother who was instrumental in having M annointed in the first place. Sai Baba or Freejon never meant so much to you, or your guru either supportively or otherwise. If BBJ is an honest man, M's got some serious questions to answer. That's not the case in the same way with Sai Baba or Freejon. It's too bad you DIDN'T get over to see BBJ. But I say that time should make no difference. He was indeed more important to you then than Sai Baba or Freejon and I can't think of any logical reason why a few years would change that. Care to reconsider on this point or should we has it out further? As I say, I think it's quite impossible for BBJ to mean as little to you as you say, M's wishful thinking notwithstanding. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 04:36:39 (EST)
From: Goldie Email: None To: Jim Subject: RE: BBJ etc Message: I would certainly have to accept that Maharaji is not the only giver of K. I would also have to re-look at the whole concept of 'giving' Knowledge. I should add that over the years I have met and spoken with lots of meditators including those that have the same techniques. I have not yet met any non-premie who has a comparable experience. I believe that if I did meet such a person, it wouldn't change my own experience…. nothing has up to now. Jim said'Are you saying that you have some reason for believing that people initiated by BBJ have any less potent experiences than those clicked by M?' Yes. …..however having said that I am beginning to remember the time I got knowledge. At that time I was after ‘the truth’ , The Knowledge,something that is my own. I am not really sure at the moment of how I took ’the Master’ concept on board.( That’s something I really need think about a lot more.) BUT it is present in me really deeply(this is not premie-speak, it means I can’t pretend it’s not there…even though logic and reason do dictate otherwise.) Jim said' Do you believe that BBJ himself sees a lesser light than you? How about Bhole Ji? They were both clicked by Shri Hans?' I have understood over the years that I don't really know about anybody else's experience. Lots of premies I have spoken with don't appear to have much of an experience in meditation. I don't pretend to understand this. Does a mango taste the same to everyone? [smile] ….. Re:Bhole Ji……all I remember of him was hearing a tape of his band doing some beatle/dillon etal songs….I thought the music was great.. Jim said' Did their spiritual experience decrease after they left M? If so, how much? Altogether? ' No idea. If they believed that they were/are Brahma/Shiva /holy mum I doubt very much whether they meditated at all……..there was something about ‘being around the Master’ exempting you from meditation. (When I moved into the ashram, there were several occasions when I was told that I didn’t need to meditate since I was doing ‘full-time service’. I remember doing some service at Beechurst(’79) and being looked upon as really strange because I used to sing arti on my own. Can you believe that?……I got tolchocked for singing arti and meditating) Jim said 'But here's another way of approaching this: is there any other fact or phenomena you could imagine that might force you to rethink your concept of giving k? How about neuroscience? Did you read that article by Tom Wolfe about brain research that I linked to above under 'very interesting article'? Would you please? Is there anything else in its context which you could imagine upsetting your current notion? ' I have not checked out neuroscience. I will read Tom Wolfe's article. GO said'I am not overly interested in BBj anymore than I am interested in sai baba or freejon etc. I still talk to the Hare Krishnas because they are still on the streets in London. Jim said'Sorry, Go, we've got our first credibility gap on this one. Item - Bal Bhagwan Ji is the eldest son of your guru's former guru and the eldest brother of your guru. He's one of three brothers each of whom you, at least superficially worshipped at some point in your life (ever say 'Ananda Kanda Ki Jai!'?).' Well you'll just have to take my word for it or you can labour the point. I never took them seriously. I think the anand kanda bit was a bit before my time. I only remember bole shri…..and even that I never did very much. I was never into chanting, I never fasted, I sometimes give charity…..I was very austere but am lightening up lately. I think you probably got knowledge some time before me when the holy family stuff was in the forefront. Did you believe bbj was jesus or a god of some sort? Jim said' The one brother who hasn't bolted from M still has revered although unstated status in the group. BBJ was, as I've said, your guru's main spokesman until he left. He explained much ostensibly on behalf of your guru whether or not you .... oh that's right, you came along just as he was leaving or something, right? Well, you still must have had lots of occasion to read BBJ's words in M publications. Don't tell me you never thumbed through a copy of 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?' ' I have 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?' and read what was said……but so what the fact is I never really believed that Maharaji's family were any different to anyone else. Honest…cross my heart[smile]. Jim said'Many who were there when M took over concur including M's late mother who was instrumental in having M annointed in the first place. Sai Baba or Freejon never meant so much to you, or your guru either supportively or otherwise. If BBJ is an honest man, M's got some serious questions to answer. That's not the case in the same way with Sai Baba or Freejon. ' What can I say except that I have always tried to go with my own experience, i/e. follow my own feelings/wishes(btw that is what I mean by surrender). The family stuff just was just not important to me. Just as wearing suits to programs was not important(I was admonished on several occassions for not dressing up to go see maharaji.….I just went as I felt comfortable). Just as I never used to stand up and or clap. Jim said'It's too bad you DIDN'T get over to see BBJ. But I say that time should make no difference. He was indeed more important to you then than Sai Baba or Freejon and I can't think of any logical reason why a few years would change that. Care to reconsider on this point or should we has it out further? As I say, I think it's quite impossible for BBJ to mean as little to you as you say, M's wishful thinking notwithstanding.' I saw BBJ as a confused premie. I was quite prepared to visit him in Prem Nagar , give him satsang and get him to give back Prem Nagar. I've not got the same enthusiasm anymore since Maharaji himself appears to have let go of Prem Nagar or rather let Prem Nagar go. I did meet the lawyer in Delhi who was dealing with prem nagar( an American..I think his name was Victor), but he seemed useless and seemed to be getting a free ride in India. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 05:44:41 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Goldie Subject: RE: BBJ etc Message: BTW: Did you read 'The Guru Papers' ? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 13:04:20 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Golden Oldie Subject: comparable experience Message: GO stated: 'I should add that over the years I have met and spoken with lots of meditators including those that have the same techniques. I have not yet met any non-premie who has a comparable experience. I believe that if I did meet such a person, it wouldn't change my own experience…. nothing has up to now.' I'm a long time practitioner of Maharaji's meditation. I left Maharaji's organization and the recognition of him as my guru in the 80's. However I have continued on my own spiritual path using much of the meditation I was given. I have no regrets for the time I spent with M's organization. I view the meditation as a wonderful gift. Over the past few years I have gotten deeper into Tibetan Buddhism. For me, the meditation and other spiritual experiences are richer and deeper than the context I had with M. M these days seems to promote his meditation as relaxation. That's not enough. For me, deep spirituality is the only context that works. Tibetan Buddhism provides a context of radical experience, rich imagery and deep love, all very important to me. Just wanted to share that perspective. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 16:36:10 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Bobby Subject: Rich imagery Message: Is that why your Hallo'ween download picture had all those rich orange colors in it? :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 16:44:06 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Helen Subject: Rich imagery Message: Yeah! I like the visuals :P Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 00:22:50 (EST)
From: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: Bobby Subject: comparable experience Message: I just spent five years practicing Tibetan Buddhism, also. In the end, I found it eerily similar to the Maharaji experience, particularly the aspect of 'guru-yoga'. (Though, of course, it's a lot more culturally rich: gorgeous altars, chants, thangkas, etc. No bare chairs alone on a stark, business-like stage.) But the essence, I felt was the same: surrender of your 'self' to a guru figure to achieve liberation, enlightenment, release from day-to-day suffering. Couldn't hack it in the end, especially the prostrations part (again, eerily similar to pranaming). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 10:39:55 (EST)
From: Golden Oldie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Part2 Message: Jim said'Would you tell Maharaji this to his face? How about not to his face but in public? Would you sign your real name to this? ' If I got a chance to speak to him..yes. M has my name on several letters that I have written over the years, particularly in the early 80s when those in charge were treating people like crap. I did not write aggressively, but rather as a devotee who was confused and upset by His lack of action. I gave up writing after 10 years of trying. The last official contact I had from EV(or maybe it was dlm) was in the early 80s. The call went like this: EV Hello we have a service opportunity for you….would you like some service? GO What would like me to do? EV To give us £500 GO But I don't have £500. EV We were told that you are rich. GO Well I don't have £500. EV Oh……bye then. Maybe Maharaji and Ev have done me a favour …..they've forced me to internalise the whole thing. Regards GO Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 11:41:26 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Golden Oldie Subject: More Message: If I got a chance to speak to him..yes. M has my name on several letters that I have written over the years, particularly in the early 80s when those in charge were treating people like crap. I did not write aggressively, but rather as a devotee who was confused and upset by His lack of action. I gave up writing after 10 years of trying. The last official contact I had from EV(or maybe it was dlm) was in the early 80s. I admire your apparent forthrightness. But why stop short? The fact is you can put your name to all that you say here and there's a very good chance M might find out. If you like I will fax a copy of your collected comments to EV and send M a registered letter as well. Really, Go, you must understand the significance of your anonymity in the circumnstances. Would you be willing to state your name to make a point? What point? I don't know... you tell me. If you won't sign on to all this what does that say about M? Do you think M would like you for criticizing him? How much can your own opinion of him fall before you entertain the possibility that maybe, despite what you perceive as your 'expereiences', you've been had? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 16:59:37 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Golden Oldie Subject: Internalization Message: My dear Goldy, You have internalized the whole thing because what you see externally--GM not responding to your letters, EV's shameless soliciting of $--clashes with your values. Because, Goldy, you are a good person with a clear heart and vision of what you want out of a spiritual path/quest. What you've internalized, no doubt, is the good that you've distilled from the experience. What you are meditating on is the God within yourself, not Maharaji (in my opinion). So why do you need him anyway?. You sound like a pretty evolved kind of guy. In my opinion, you could go a lot farther on your spiritual journey without Maharaji. You can still meditate, you know. The shameless soliciting of $--where do you think that comes from? That's been going on forever! Is that just some misguided premies who are 'in their minds'? No, that's coming from Maharaji. You've had mystical experiences around Maharaji--but is a spiritual path only about phenomena? What about the external phenomena that is apparent here in the three dimensional world? WHere do ethics come in? How can a truly spiritual leader not have ethics? I feel very strongly that GM doesn't deserve your devotion, dear Goldy. If someone you loved (on a romantic level) didn't respond when you wanted to discuss something with them, if they just wanted your MONEY, wouldn't there come a time when you realized that you were throwing your good love after bad?. I just had to put my two cents in, couldn't resist. Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 04:42:04 (EST)
From: Goldie Email: None To: Helen Subject: Internalization Message: Thanks helen for your nice words. Helen said'...If someone you loved (on a romantic level) didn't respond when you wanted to discuss something with them, if they just wanted your MONEY, wouldn't there come a time when you realized that you were throwing your good love after bad?.' That's right, but when you are totally in love it's hard to shift even though you know you ought to. Goldie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 08:54:13 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Goldie Subject: Internalization Message: Kinda reminds me of the James Taylor song 'Don't Let Me Be Lonely Tonight' (remember him?) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 08:31:57 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Golden Oldie Subject: GO - These are not smiles Message: Golden Oldie - You've been seeing your posts with portions looking like These do not constitute 'cyberspace smiles'. They tell the browser to begin Striking out letters. Since you don't turn it off afterwards, it continues to the end of your post. It has to be corrected by the Forum Elves then. If you want to smile, do this :) or [smile] with SQUARE BRACKETS. Don't use ANGLE BRACKETS (less-than, greater-than), since they denote HTML (browser) commands. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 10:41:05 (EST)
From: Golden Oldie Email: None To: Brian Subject: Thanks for the info :) NT Message: NT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 11:52:48 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Goldy Subject: GO - These are not smiles Message: Dear Goldy, Another similar symbol here, coined by a premie actually, is: [snicker]. Glad to help out. ;) Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 08:39:41 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Golden Oldie Subject: JIM read this please Message: Dear Goldy, :) This quote from your post is right on and so well put! Thanks. 'Blindly folowing someone's words does not provide the true mirror of life. They do not understand that 'surrender' does not mean 'self-abandonment'.' Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 10:42:34 (EST)
From: Goldy Email: None To: Robyn Subject: ROBYN please read this please Message: Robyn, You have a wonderful smile :) Goldy :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 11:07:42 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Goldy Subject: ROBYN please read this please Message: Hey, that's funny! Good one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 11:48:10 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Goldy Subject: ROBYN please read this please Message: Dear Goldy, THANKS! <3, (a heart, my niece showed me) Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 12:07:24 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Golden Oldie Subject: GO read this please Message: GO said 'Blindly folowing someone's words does not provide the true mirror of life. They do not understand that 'surrender' does not mean 'self-abandonment'.', which Robyn enjoyed. Granted, it's a fine phrase and nicely put, but it presupposes somethings which are undefined. It presupposes the exists of a ''mirror of life.'' What does this mean, exactly? Even if it can be defined, that does not prove its existence. Also, what do you mean by surrender? We now know you don't mean self-abandonment, a rather curious term itself. This is the problem I have with mystical thinking. There are too many phrases bandied about without defined meanings or any proof of their existence. I also question the value of ANY meditation experience. What good is it? What does it do for you? And how do you know that any hypothetical ''results'' are actually due to meditation? How does one establish the casual relationship? Can it be replicated? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 14:48:14 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gerry Subject: GO read this please Message: Gerry, I can tell you it's not all that hard to establish a casual relationship. Just never sleep over more than three nights in a row and don't give her your parents' phone number. (Hey, Wildman made me say that!) No, you took the words out of my mouth. If 'surrender' doesn't mean blindly following someone I'd like to know why. Yes, yes, there must be a million ways to play around with these words but the truth is surrender absolutely entails faith which is, by definition, blind. Any faith that's based on reason and knowledge isn't faith anymore. It's reason. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 15:03:16 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim the Wildman Subject: Ha! I deserved that! nt Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 17:07:54 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Good point, Gerry Message: Thanks for pointing all that out, Gerry. I would have just let it get passed me if you hadn't. It's interesting, the positive response Robyn gave to GO's post. Maybe there's something there I missed but, (sorry, Robyn), I don't think so. I think this is an ideal example of how someone can get drawn into a cult. Somebody makes a statement, you grasp no meaning in it, but enough people nod in agreement where you suppose that there is some meaning which is just lost on you, that in time, hopefully, you'll grasp. Unless somebody, with enough fortitude, steps forward and says 'I don't get it', you could find yourself brainwashed by this type of 'mystical thinking', or new age speak, in no time. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 17:45:52 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jerry Subject: I don't think so Message: You are assuming that all mystical experiences or types of faith are acts of unhealthy surrender. Or that faith and reason cannot exist in the same person. I do not believe that. Plus if Robyn found something in a post that touched her, who are you to tell her she does not grasp the meaning of it for herself, just because you don't? That sounds a bit pedantic and paternalistic to me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 18:19:07 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Helen Subject: Ouch! Message: If you'll recall, I said that maybe there was something there, but I don't think so. If Robyn got something from Goldy's post, fine. I certainly wasn't trying to be paternalistic. I'm sorry it came across that way. I was, in effect, challenging her to her response to Golden Oldie. I wholeheartedly disagree with her on the value of Goldy's post. I think his statement about the difference between 'surrender' and 'self-abandonment' is typical, nonsensicle premie speak. I am allowed to express my opinions here, even if they happen to conflict with others, aren't I? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 01:35:34 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Jerry Subject: Ouch! Message: Dear Jerry, Gerry and Hellen, Class, CLAss, CLASS!!!! Fight nice. The thing I responded to in Goldy's post was that he/she did not fall right into self abandonment which we have discussed here before is very often the case, not eating or sleeping well for to long, working long hours for little or no pay etc. I feel a little bad because I just posted that little thread about thinking scientificly. I am taking baby steps I guess and I still am more non science oriented I guess. No hard feelings, I can take disagreement if it is done in a friendly manner. No big deal. Hellen, thanks for standing up for me though. I'll be looking for you if I do feel threatened that's for sure. :) Gerry and Jerry, I love you guys. I think I'll get out my chemistry book to fall asleep by tonight. :) Love ya, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 13:46:46 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Ouch! Message: Hey, Robyn, don't feel badly. It seems to me that you were saying there could be a difference between physically neglecting oneself and surrendering your emotions, thoughts, etc. There is a difference between these two things. Sometimes when a person surrenders their thoughts and emotions, they also neglect themselves. Is that what you meant? Both are damaging, don't you think? Love, VP <3 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 19:54:24 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: VP Subject: Ouch! Message: Dear Veep! Yes dear, that is what I meant. Both are bad and of course combined it is worse. I was glad 'Goldy' didn't think neglecting one's self was part of devotion. My, my, My name hasn't been such a topic in a long time. :) It's that middle child thing! We can stir things up with just a morsel and then watch it all take place. Love, Robyn Had my 3rd fire in the wood stove- 11/4/98 :( Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 17:43:34 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Okay, teacher Message: You crack me up, girl. Hope your chemistry book was er...fun. Next time I have insomnia I think I will try that. Love, Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 18:45:21 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Helen Subject: I don't think so Message: Hi Helen, Wow, that was a rather strong reaction to Jerry. I think Jerry's basic premise was right on: Somebody makes a statement, you grasp no meaning in it, but enough people nod in agreement where you suppose that there is some meaning which is just lost on you, that in time, hopefully, you'll grasp. Unless somebody, with enough fortitude, steps forward and says 'I don't get it', you could find yourself brainwashed by this type of 'mystical thinking', or new age speak, in no time. You say this: You are assuming that all mystical experiences or types of faith are acts of unhealthy surrender. Or that faith and reason cannot exist in the same person. Just curious, how do you get this from his post? Or are you drawing on memory of other posts where Jerry tips his hand about his thoughts on things mystical? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 20:26:20 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jerry/Gerry Subject: Clarification Message: Hi Jerry & Gerry, I am getting you and Gerry mixed up. I apologize. Wish I could have all the posts in front of me so I would not make the offensive mistake of blurring people together. Better yet, wish we could go out for coffee and discuss this face to face. Let me parce this out. Gerry the first part of my last post, the part about faith & reason was written in response to your last post. Jerry, it seemed like you were implying that Robyn didn't grasp the meaning of a statement that Goldy made. I am assuming that she knows her own mind. Thus, the word 'paternalistic'. WHat I should have said instead of calling you provocative names is that I disagreed with you. I did not find anything culty or brainwashy in the statement 'Blindly following someone's words does not provide the true mirror of life'. In fact, that statement makes a lot of sense to me. I interpret the statment to mean that the true mirror of life is within the individual and that we must always be doing a reality check within ourselves,using our discrimination to determine whether statements are true or false for us. I do not know if Robyn interpreted that statement the same way. Gerry, as a person of faith, I have to own up to a bias. I think that the scientific method is not the only way to dissect the world. People also use their hunches, intuitions, and the unconcious (dreams) etc. to get information. I am frustrated when atheists on the forum seem pedantic: so academic that they are dismissing the experiences that billions of people have every day. I am open to the fact that one day my reason and experiences may lead me to become an atheist. Are you open to the fact that there may be a God? I'm sorry to have lumped you both together. Sometimes this style of communication is very flat. I feel like Gumby talking to Pokey in a parallel universe. Help me I'm trapped on this page. Please accept my apology for my clumsimess, Jerry. Sorry if I was too harsh. Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 20:52:05 (EST)
From: Gerry with a G Email: None To: Helen Subject: Helen Wheels Message: First of all, I don't think you were harsh. Just a little rash, that's all. (been there-done that) :) You said this part of your post was for me, right? So I'll respond. You are assuming that all mystical experiences or types of faith are acts of unhealthy surrender. Or that faith and reason cannot exist in the same person. I do not believe that. I just don't see where you get this out of what I said to Golden Oldie. I really don't. But that's OK, becuase it spurs more discussion. If some one has an experience, they have it. No question about. However, what they attribute that experience to, and the meaning they place on it is not necessarily accurate. It may be their opinion, but opinion is not proof or truth. And yes some people who are otherwise quite rational can be believers in some of the strangest things. My father is rational engineer type, and he believes (as a matter of faith) that the priest's words over a piece of unleavened bread magically changes it into the body of Christ! For chrissake, is there anything rational or believeable about that? You say you are a ''person of faith.'' What does that mean? Also you say people get information through intuitions, hunches and dreams. I agree. I use the first two extensively. But I consider them to be brain functions as yet unexplained. Why must we spiritualize or mystify these in order to validate them? PS I enjoy ''talking'' with you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 21:31:59 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Church, Faith, Blah, Blah Message: I am having a big insight tonight. I think atheists are very threatening to me because I am afraid they will snatch my faith in God away. Isn't that a funny, childish thing? My faith has comforted me through many trials and tribulations. Yes I understand what you are saying, you bad atheist man, you (just kidding). The meaning we place on experiences may not be accurate--yes, that is true. I am always checking out my assumptions because I always assume the worst. But that is just my brain going into its old groove, its early trauma groove. And my assumptions are often wrong. Your dad taking communion: This is a symbolic act. Christ said 'I have broken my body for you'. If this gives your Dad comfort and peace, so what? If he literally thinks the priest transforms it into Christ's flesh, well, that is a bit of a stretch. But unless your Dad is seriously impaired, so what if he wants to have his faith? Does he live a good life? Is he responsible? Is he close-minded and did he fill you with guilt? I mean, we see certain things in religions and they seem so weird, but the people can be quite normal. I know, I know, we said that about GM, too. One of the strangest experiences I ever had has to do with Catholicism: I went to grad school at Catholic University in DC, I also taught there all through grad school. The Shrine of the Immaculate Conception is there on campus. It's this huge Byzantine structure that Catholics come to from all over the world to pay homage to the virgin Mary. I used to eat in the cafeteria at the Shrine each day. One day I got some lunch, and I'm sitting there eating. The cafeteria has photos of the pope all around, it's a very serious Catholic place. Well, the muzac starts playing 'Like a Virgin' (the Madonna song). Can you imagine? I just about peed my pants. Talk about lila! I believe there is a spiritual part of everyone, you might explain that as me attributing mysticism to certain experiences or things. You say tomato, I say potato. I just don't know if we can find a common language. Perhaps what I've been calling 'God' all along is humanism, perhaps being 'a person of faith' means having hope and belieiving in the inherent worth of every human being. Maybe it's all semantics. Alot of it is how you have been brought up, and how you think. Read my post below about God inthe Bones. I dunno. I enjoy talking to you too, Gerry. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 12:01:37 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Helen Subject: Church, Faith, Blah, Blah Message: Hi Helen, Funny, I never really thought of myself as an atheist. I guess I am. Maybe agnostic is a better word. Right now, an accurate description would be, 'don't know, don't care,'' if there is a god. Religion provides a measure of comfort and restraint on millions of people. I'm not out to pull the rug out from underneath any of them. I know catholicism gives my father a lot of comfort and peace, so much so that he can be a bastard most of the time, go to confession, get all cleaned up and forgiven and ready to be a bastard all over again. It's the perfect religion for sociopaths who fear hell. I'm a little short on mystic experiences, although not totally deficient. And I disdain formal religion completely. BTW, I am burrowing my way through The Five Gospels, a book Mickey mentioned, which was compiled by the Jesus Seminar people. The remaining vestiges of belief in Jesus as anything other than a mortal man are peeling off nicely. It is good (for me) to remove these layers of childhood conditioning as they arise. It seems that for you, religion serves as a sort of balm. For me, it was an anchor and a dead weight. Let me know if you ever get it figured out for sure. I'll do the same. :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 17:39:52 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Religion Message: Gerry, my dear, We bring our experiences to bear on everything, that is the human condition as they say. SOunds like for you, shedding your religion is liberating. To me, my religion is liberating. In my religion (Unitarianism) you are taught to take responsibility for your own actions. There is no original sin, no confession. Even the little SUnday school songs dealt with perspective taking. One went; 'I'm glad to be me, but I also see, you're just as glad to be you.' This is what I was inculcated with from a wee lass. So, I feel that religion has helped me to be a better human being. Sorry your Dad is just using his as a repository of his bad behavior. Perhaps he would be on a different trajectory if the preist called him on it. I don't know. Hope you will read the Walker Percy interview mentioned in my post to Jerry. Percy's book 'The Second Coming' deals with faith, grace etc...it is left a little ambiguous whether the ending is God's grace or God immanent in the world through loving relationships, or just the goodness of humanity shining through.... I myself have experienced God's grace many times in ways too specific to be merely coincidence. These are things I may share with you if you are interested, but I would be very uncomfortable if I felt you would ridicule me. I usually don't talk about God much at all in my life 'off-line' and I consider it pretty personal. And true to my Unitarian upbringing I respect peoples' beliefs. Talk to you again soon, Hell on WHeels (you're not he 1st one to call me that) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 18:10:52 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Helen Subject: Religion Message: I've read part of the interview already, Helen, and will finish it soon. You can pretty much say anything you want to me, and I will be repectful of it. Funny I don't feel the least bit presupposed to ridicule women. Just haughty know-it-all men. Maybe it's something in my jeans... Gerry--who wishes he'd been brought up Unitarian and NOT catholic. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 20:36:05 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Gerry Subject: WOmen of Valor Message: Maybe you don't ridicule women because we are so much purer and closer to God. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHa Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 00:25:30 (EST)
From: Gerrry Email: None To: Helen Subject: WOmen of Valor Message: Maybe you don't ridicule women because we are so much purer and closer to God. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHa Ok, so maybe that is what I meant. WHAT'S SO FAR FETCHED ABOUT THAT??? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 00:42:58 (EST)
From: Helen Wheels Email: None To: Gerrry Subject: The real reason Message: But you also mentioned that the something in your jeans is the reason you are so much kinder to women! (just messin' w/ya) (; Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 01:59:04 (EST)
From: jethro Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Religion Message: Gerry, 'Just haughty know-it-all men. Maybe it's something in my jeans...' Do you mean your Levis? Jethro Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 14:38:40 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: jethro Subject: Religion Message: Gerry, 'Just haughty know-it-all men. Maybe it's something in my jeans...' Do you mean your Levis? Jethro Gosh jump all over a guy for a simple misspelling! :-) BTW, I was thinking of Swami Simons when I said haughty know-it-all men. Not any of our esteemed, albeit misled liberal colleagues of the Forum. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 10:50:22 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Helen Subject: Religion Message: Dear Helen, I think you are great. I don't get to read all the posts anymore but I've liked you since the first post of yours I read. Thanks. Same with Gerry when he first landed. :) Love, Robyn I am here now, a little take on BHN, I guess, looking to see if you told me where you live on the east coast since I live in PA. I should be doing the dishes! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 12:53:06 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Religion Message: Hey Robyn, Thanks, girl, you seem like a very kind person. I live in the DC area. DO you live in the country in PA? I think I remember reading that you do. IF you do, I am VERY jealous. PA is beautiful. I should be doing all kinds of chores too. My whole house has gone to pot since findign this forum. HELP I'm addicted. I didn't read that whole Tom wolfe thread becuase there were too many topics I knew I'd want to post on--Ritalin, etc, etc. Love, Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 23:06:56 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Helen Subject: Clarification Message: No reason for an apology, Helen, but if it makes you feel better, apology accepted. I agree with your observations about the awkwardness that can arise communicating through this medium. Still, it is fun. About the 'mirror of life'. You've interpreted it to mean what you think it means, Robyn may have interpreted it differently, and Goldy may have been trying to express something entirely different from both of your interpretations. I think it was Brian or Rick, I'm not sure who, that pointed out that the one who speaks in parables is the one who gets all the credit for wisdom when we're the ones who interpret what their parables mean. I prefer a wisdom that is more direct, such as what Jim said about reason, that if something can't stand up to reason than it should fall. There is no doubt what is meant by this, no need for interpretation. It's a clear statement which speaks for itself. This is the way I think people should talk to each other, or at least, this is the way I prefer people speak to me. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to get back to the movie I rented, 'Godzilla', which isn't really as bad as people have rated it. But I was half expecting it to totally suck from all the lousy reviews so, so far I'm not disappointed. If anybody's interested in renting a really good movie, though, I would recommend 'The Spanish Prisoner', an excellent puzzler, brilliantly directed. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 00:34:09 (EST)
From: Joy Email: None To: Jerry Subject: The Spanish Prisoner Message: Oh yeah, I just saw The Spanish Prisoner and really loved it, very good film. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 02:10:35 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Come on, Jerry Message: Jerry, We saw The Spanish Prisoner a few weeks ago and really, it sucked. That's it for Mamet as far as I'm concerned. A few weeks before we tried watching Oleanna. Forget it! That cutting people off in mid-sentence thing... talk about over-used device or what? And the Spanish Prisoner sucked in its own precious juices. Over-blown pregnant pauses, arty, bullshit dialogue, semi-involving plot when plot was all there was. Naw, Glengarry Glen Ross was an anomolie (sp?). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 10:10:28 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: I'm serious, Jim Message: I felt the same way about the 'The Spanish Prisoner' for about the first 20 minutes. Then as the plot began to unfold, I found everything in the film to be brilliant, a true gem of art. I never heard of 'Oleanna' but now that I know Mamet directed it, I'll be sure to rent it. No, Glengarry Glen Ross was not an anomaly. What does (sp) mean? I see that a lot here on the forum. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 12:57:57 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jerry Subject: (sp) Message: (sp) means 'I'm not sure if I spelled that right or not'. (I could add some commments about Jim's spelling here, but I won't.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 13:33:04 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jerry Subject: I'm serious, Jim Message: Glengarry glen ross was brilliant. Warning: Do not watch when depressed. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 19:51:19 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jerry Subject: I'm serious, Jim Message: Jerry, What the fuck was brilliant about THAT? Those fake little aphorisms characters kept spouting? The stupid plot devices? The stilted acting? The excessively pregnant pauses. Watch Oleanna and you'll see Mamet's dialogue mistakes in the other direction, never letting a character finish a sentence as some misguided realism. I'm telling you, after five minutes the whole thing is so fake I felt like saying, 'Boy, is this fake!' But the Spanish Prisoner is no better. Almost as bad as The Game with Michael Douglas. That's another movie that keeps you guessing ... yawn. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 22:09:38 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: I'm serious, Jim Message: Somehow, Mamet made it all work, Jim. I don't remember too many fake aphormisms, and the plot was excellent. The only thing I agree with you about is the stilted acting and the excessively pregnant pauses, but did it occur to you that this was done on purpose and added to the artistry of the film? Mamet's a genius in my book. Sorry you didn't get it. You missed a good movie. You're right about 'The Game'. It sucked. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 23:11:24 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: I'm serious, Jim Message: Did you mean to address that post about Glengarry Glen Ross to me? If you think it was fake, I guess you have never worked in high pressure sales before (selling Divine Times doesn't count!) Sales is full of fakers spouting little aphorisms. I don't really think it was brilliant, but I am glad I watched it even though it was so damn sad. The manager of sales for a shipping company here in town showed part of that movie to his salesmen. He wanted to motivate them. He showed them the Alec Baldwin speech. All five of the people walked right out and never came back. What movie(s) do you recommend? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 00:55:07 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: VP Subject: I'm serious, Jim Message: Veep, I really liked Glengarry Glen Ross. It's the other two Mamet films I didn't much care for -- Spanish Prisoner and the first fifteen minutes of Oleanna (all I could sit through). Have you seen Waiting for Guffman? I thought that was really cute. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 11:19:11 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Jim Subject: I'm serious, Jim Message: I'm with you, Jim, Waiting for Guffman is great! I even bought the video since it has some perfect comedic moments. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 14:02:36 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: I'm serious, Jim Message: Oops, sorry. I misunderstood completely, though I did get that you didn't care for Oleanna or the Spanish Prisoner. I haven't seen waiting for Guffman, but will watch it. Thanks! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 11:43:11 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Clarification Message: Hey Jerry with a J Hope you enjoyed the movie. I will write you a response when I have time. Meanwhile, I have this to say about interpretation of parables, art, etc: We cannot help but bring our own experiences to interact with text or speech. However, I do see the value in reasoning out what the author/speaker was trying to say. I constantly tried to get my students to do that when discussing poetry. They kept trying to just respond with a feeling, but that didn't cut it for me. I wanted them to try to figure out what the author was trying to say based on all the evidence in the whole poem. I will write more when I have time. Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 17:10:09 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Jerry,-a reply Message: Jerry, I would like to invite you (& the others in the atheist/agnostic/science/faith discussion) to read an interview with my main man Walker Percy called The STudy of Consciousness: An Interview with Walker Percy at http://sunsite.unc.edu/wpercy/hobson.html or read his book Lost in the Cosmos: The Last Self-Help Book. SOme quotes fm Percy: '[The Last Self-Help Book] is based on the belief I have that we are increasingly unable to understand ourselves based on our magnificent, triumphant science. What we have is a nonradical science, a technology which understands the interaction between things and things, and between things and organisms, but which has nothing whatever to say about what it is to be a human being, to find oneself in human predicaments. ANd the question is whether science can address itself to these things at all; most people say no. They say maybe a novelist can talk about it, and maybe a phenomenologist can talk about it, but science cannot. But I think there may be such a thing as what I call a 'radical science'. We now call it semiotics, which has to do with the interaction between people, and people and things, and people and symbols. I'm sure that the human experience cannot be reduced to any science, but you need a way of thinking about all these situations I write about and other novelists write about....' 'If I suffer anxiety and depression, my natural inclination is to go to an expert on anxiety and depression, you see. He treats it like a case of appenticitis, and treats it with drugs. I was thinking about this at a conference on primatology about whether or not chimps can use language, to figure out the passions involved. I mean, the people who have spent years of their lives trying to prove that chimps can use language--why this great passion? What are they trying to prove? It has to do with Darwin, but even before that, for the last 300 or 400 years, it has to do with the displacement of man from the center of the universe, the way he was in CHristian theology. He was dethroned first by Copernicus, who said that the earth was no longer the center; and then by Darwin, who said that man was no longer the unique species; and then by Freud, who said that we were no longer sovereigns of our own consciousness. But the interesting question is what about the scientist who was saying these things? What is he saying? We demand a continuum, we are all part of the same continuum, but where is the scientist standing as he is saying this? I think there is a theology involved. The scientist is trying to get rid of God; he's trying to get rid of the uniqueness of man. He does not like a break in the continuum, the proposition that man may be qualitatively different from other species....' (Then he goes on to say that the scientist tries to be outside the world, looking at the world as data, but that the scientist has consciousness too, so he has to reenter the world at some point...) What a long post! Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 20:26:53 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Helen Subject: BIG yawn Message: Helen, I read the interview and the quotes above. This guy might be a good novelist but his philosophy seems dull. What a trite, old joke -- the theology of science. Sorry, Helen, can you direct me to anything new, interesting and concrete he's got to offer? This stuff doesn't impress. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 20:44:22 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jim Subject: BIG Meanie Message: You are so mean, Jim. How can you call Walker Percy, a Pulitzer prize-winning novelist, and my hero, trite?. He is brilliant. I would have his baby in a heartbeat (except that he is dead). From now on, I shall post by the pseudonym, 'Sad Little Clown' because I cannot stand for my most precious ideals to be stomped on by you any longer. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 20:51:30 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Helen Subject: BIG Meanie Message: Helen, I take it all back. Never, I say NEVER have I come across such a goldmine of new thought and discovery. Indeed, I feel like I have two birthday's now, the old, regular thing and the one commemorating my introduction to award-winning multi-disciplinarian, Walker Percy. November 4, 1998. Let's toast this night a year from now, shall we? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 21:01:59 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jim Subject: You big sarcastic meanie Message: Did you not find anything in that interview that was interesting to you? This confirms my theory of last night that our brains are completely different. After I read The Second Coming, which is one of the most amazing books I have ever read, I was so excited to find all this information about Percy on the internet. Oh well. SOrry you didn't like it. What are YOU reading that is so exciting? And what movies DO you like? Please don't tell me Tom Wolfe. Love, Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 21:41:18 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Helen Subject: You big sarcastic meanie Message: Actually, Helen, I'm looking forward to Wolfe's new book which they say is his best. I'm currently reading 'Consciousness Explained' by Daniel Dennet, 'Origins Revisited' by Richard Leaky and 'Various Positions' a biography of Leonard Cohen. No I didn't find anything interesting in that article. Please, what concept therein turns you on? Really. I'm open. Fill me with your love. Okay, if that's too sarcastic, fill me with hope. No, that ain't it. Helen, just tell me what specifically you learnt from this guy. Honestly, I'm more than ready to admit I was as hasty as JW trashing Wolfe (but nothing compared to Gerry trashing JW). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 07:32:54 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jim & Jerry Subject: Walker Percy Message: Those books sound interesting, Jim. As per explaining Walker Percy, I see now that that interview was taken out of context, & what I derived from it enhanced my pleasure from just having read 'The Second COming' Percy is an existentialist who is very interested in the malaise of the human condition. I think what he was trying to say is that science as we know it, cannot address the human condition fully, that we have to develop new ways of thinking about things. For example, we can prescribe prozac to someone who is depressed, understanding scientifically that their neurons are not firing properly, or that they have been under too much stress etc. But the prozac may not heal that peron. What may spark a change in that person may be some very idiosyncratic exchange with another person or the environment or a memory, etc. It's hard to measure these things. This very scenario is what happens to Will Barrett, the protagonist in 'The Second Coming'. He comes out of a deep, very dark depression through a chain of strange experiences and it's left ambiguous whether those experiences constitiuted grace or Will gaining mastery over his own life (& understanding his early memories) or both. I also thought Walker was saying that we have put too much stock in 'experts' explaining us to ourselves, instead of trusting ourselves. I see this in my work with parents all the time. They have read so many parenting books written by 'the experts' that they have a sort of paralysis when it comes to how to deal with their own child. Anyway, you gotta read 'The Second Coming' (the novel) to really grasp the talent of the man, my main man, Walker. Love, Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 12:21:59 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: What???? Message: Honestly, I'm more than ready to admit I was as hasty as JW trashing Wolfe (but nothing compared to Gerry trashing JW). Jeez, Jim since when is disagreement ''trashing?'' I aimed at his leftist ideals, not him personally. If you want a real example of ''trashing,'' go into the archives and read some of your posts to Bobby. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 14:53:45 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gerry Subject: What???? Message: You didn't trash JW deeply, but you did quickly. You said he 'bugs the crap out of me'. Tell me that's not directed at the man himself. Sorry, Gerry, you're backpeddling. As for Bobby, yeah, you're right. I did indeed trash him. He deserved it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 15:26:46 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: What???? Message: Not backpeddling--'bugs the crap out of me.' was using his own words back at him, like I did with a couple other things he said. Hey, maybe I discovered that ''mirror'' thingy premies are always talking about. he he Elsewhere I was careful to state my opinion so I was opposing his views and not him personally. To wit: JW said Reading this article reminds me how much I dislike Tom Wolfe and his right-wing spin on absolutely everything. I paraphrased it to read Reading this post reminds me how much I dislike Joe Whalen's left-wing spin on absolutely everything. Disagree about you and Bobby, btw. Keith deserves it, IMO, but not Bobby. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 15:58:13 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Bobby was worse than Keith Message: Bobby was worse than Keith, Gerry, partly because Keith is stupider but that's only part of the reason. Bobby came on several times much more santimoniously than Keith ever did. Spouting his 'I walk the razor's edge' bullshit about how few people (unlike him, of course) hav ethe courage to really examine their lives. You know. You've read it... all that kind of stuff. Then, when it became quickly clear that he, himself, was not willing to second guess a single concept or perception he's ever had, not only would he not admit that but he played this stupid game about being above and beyond rationality. No, he's by far the worst offender as I see it. Interesting that noth of them posted some outrageously irresponsible and cowardly threats and such under flse names here. Is there a connection between their 'spirituality' and lack of integrity? I wonder. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 17:46:29 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim's false reason Message: Yeah, right Jim. I was wondering when you would once again come round to focus your seemingly inexhaustable torrent of abuse on me. I don't have the time, inclination or energy to ride your merri-go-round of so-called reason. You're claim of 'Reason' is just a cover that hides the basic contempt you seem to have for others who think differently than you. You just don't get it. You never understood most of what I had to say to you even when I responded in most considered and reasoned tone. You just ignored most of my proferred reasons or valid quotes from others. But then you are a professional lawyer. The kind of 'reason' you purport has nothing to do with fairness, balance or understanding. Your reason really is nothing more than loaded endeavors to bring the court over to your personal views. A simple win-lose game and you'll never let the court see your hidden hand. I'm sick of your abuse, that's why I have no time to argue with you. I've followed this forum from the beginning. My reasons for leaving Maharaji are different than your reasons. Since I've been here I've seen you do nothing but become better and better at cutting people up on your personal rage crusade. I detest your personal vendettas. I thoroughly dislike derision of anyone and I don't like you. Once again I ask you to leave me the fuck alone. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 21:38:48 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Bobby Subject: The record speaks for itself Message: Bobby, I don't have MY kind of reason. You just avoided rational discussion when cornered and you know it. Go eat a pickle. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 19:25:52 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: You big sarcastic meanie Message: You might not be aware of it, but Dawkins has a new book out called 'Unweaving The Rainbow' or something like that. Just thought you might like to know, if you didn't already. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 23:19:28 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Helen Subject: To: Sad Little Clown Message: Helen, You are smart, funny, and spunky. That post made me laugh. Jim stomps on everything anyone holds dear, (except for evolutionary psychology, of course)so don't take it personally. I like Jim, but make him answer you about the movies and the books. He always bitches when someone doesn't answer HIS questions. (snicker) VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 00:50:15 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: VP Subject: Thanks, Veep Message: Thanks, Veep. Don't know how spunky I am lately now that I'm getting so addicted to this forum and staying up so damn late! Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 21:56:37 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Helen Subject: Helen,- a reply Message: Thanks for the invite, Helen, but honestly, I can't get a handle on what Walker Percy's trying to say. He eludes me. I kind of, sort of, understand what he's saying, but he speaks in very broad terms. You can't narrow him down to anything. Your closing remark is worth responding to, though. (Then he goes on to say that the scientist tries to be outside the world, looking at the world as data, but that the scientist has consciousness too, so he has to reenter the world at some point... The scientist is very aware that he has consciousness, and if you were interested in cognitive science, you'd know that the study of consciousness is at the center of it. Just where does consciousness come from? Is it of our immortal soul, a gift from God, or is it a product of evolution, dependent on our mortal beings? Does it live after death or does it end with death? These are the questions being asked by science today, Helen. They're bold questions, especially when it seems that the answers they're arriving at aren't going to sit very well with the faithful. Science is on the verge of upsetting the apple cart again. And the reason is, not because scientists want to see the religious squirm, but because they refuse to sacrifice reason for faith, which apparently, it seems, is what the faithful would like them to do. I'd like to close with a comment on something you posted to Gerry. 'I'm glad to be me, but I also see, you're just as glad to be you.' This is what I was inculcated with from a wee lass. I like this. I'm glad you were taught this as a child. I think all children should be. I think quite a few adults should learn this lesson, also. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 00:37:56 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Cognitive SCience Message: Dear Jerry, I have a Master's Degree in Education and have studied cognitive science quite a bit, and I am quite interested in it. I have had writing published that deals with infant brain development. The whole Master's program I was in deals with how people think. My thesis was on how expert and novice teachers think differently, how they represent problems, and patterns differently in their BRAINS. I have done quite a lot of training, have written trainings, and have taught people about how children think and learn. Don't assume that I am not interested in cognitive science or that I may not be able to handle having science upset my belief or faith. I do not mind cognitive dissonance one bit, I think it's good, healthy, necessary, wonderful, exciting. I am a bit offended (poor Jerry, it always seems like I'm picking on you--I don't mean to be), at the implication that people who believe in God don't also embrace science. If I seem defensive, I'm sorry, but please don't assume that I am not reading scientific stuff just as you are. As for Walker Percy, I will post tomorrow in response to yours and Jims/ questions about what I think he was trying to say. I am very tired--did I mention that I work in a SCIENCE research place and I have to get up early tomorrow. Love, Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 07:05:23 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jerry Subject: COg. Science Pt 2 Message: Jerry- I just remembered that that song from Unitarian SUnday school goes: 'I'm proud to be me, but I also see, you're just as proud to be you' (instead of I'm glad to be me) Isn't that cool? Sorry if I got a little defensive last nite but you said 'if you were interested in cognitive science' assuming that I wasn't, and that set me off. I wasn't trying to recite my whole resume to you, I was more just trying to illustrate just how exciting I think cognitive science is, although I'm only up on it as far as its implications for learning adn child developement. PErhaps we could just have discussions about cognitive science without always bringing God into it. Perhaps religion and science answer different questions and they do need always have to cancel each other out. ANyway, I do enjoy the discussion. Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 09:57:51 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Helen Subject: COg. Science Pt 2 Message: I can be presumptuous, and people, rightfully so, will get defensive. Sorry. As a student of cognitive science, what do you think of the theory that consciousness is the result of brain processes, and once those processes cease, so too does consciousness? Wouldn't this question the existence of a soul, which lives on into an afterlife, if this is the case? 'I'm proud to be me, but I also see, you're just as proud to be you', is pretty cool, but as a good little Catholic boy I was taught that pride is a bad thing. Also, I'm a Yugoslavian (now Slovenian), that was raised as a foster child in an Irish Catholic household who always referred to me as a 'dumb Polack'. I kept trying to explain to them that I was Yugoslavian, not Polish, but you know how thick the Irish can be. Actually, they were the nicest, most fun people to be around, and I consider myself fortunate to have grown up in their care, given the circumstances. Anyway, being proud was not a strong lesson I received, so I find myself partial to 'I'm glad to be me, but I also see, you're just as glad to be you'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 23:32:30 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Hey Jerry Message: What an unusual upbringing you had. Did your Irish foster family raise you from a small child? Do you consider them to be your parents? DId you grow up in Ireland, Yugoslavia, or U.S.? Believe me, I sure absorbed a lot of baggage about pride being bad as well (from my family circumstances). But my religion didn't put any of that baggage on me. I am not sure about an afterlife. My religion really doesn't focus on that too much. I have had an out of body experience, and I've read about near death experiences, but that could be the brain triggering those things. So I am ready to admit that it's probable/possible that consciousness dies when the brain dies. I hope there is an afterlife. I've had a lot of loved ones die in my life, and I certainly hope that they have moved on to a different place/are with God/ in heaven or whatever. But how can we ever know? My religion (I don't even go to a Unitarian church anymore, I go to a non-fundamentalist Christian church, but at the heart I'm still a Unitarian) is more focused on the life we have here. Unitarianism is similar to Judaism in a lot of respects. Judaism traditionally doesn't address an afterlife (some Jews believe in heaven though). Any Jewish folks on forum reading this, please correct me if I'm wrong. I think most Jews would say that you are remembered by your loved ones after you die and that is the way you live on, so you should live a very good, righteous life so that you will be remembered well. The afterlife thing is not central to my faith in God. I guess that probably seems pretty eccentric but so be it. Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 10:14:51 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Helen Subject: Hey Helen Message: Good morning. Did your Irish foster family raise you from a small child? Do you consider them to be your parents? I lived with my foster parents from 8 till 22. No, sadly, I don't consider them my parents. Blood is thicker than water, and we regarded one another in that respect. I still have fond memories and think very highly of them. I haven't seen them much since I left. Interestingly, it was because of Maharaji that I left. I was asked to leave. I was the oldest of the children and my foster mother didn't think I would set a very good example for the younger ones as a premie. Actually, it was the last straw. I was pretty wild as a teenager and didn't give any indication that I was about to grow up as an adult. DId you grow up in Ireland, Yugoslavia, or U.S.? I'm third generation American. I was born in Brooklyn (I'm a wannabee tough guy). On my mother's side, I'm Irish and German. I think most Jews would say that you are remembered by your loved ones after you die and that is the way you live on, so you should live a very good, righteous life so that you will be remembered well. Like you, I don't know if Jews actually look at this way, but I'm inclined to agree. My real mother died when she was only 32. I was 12. I didn't know her very well, but it warms my heart to think that she lives on in my memories. Thinking that she's moved on to an afterlife I consider imaginative, though if she has, I would like to believe it's a better place. Now, I must get back to work. You wouldn't believe how much work I've ducked since finding this forum in July. I even get pissed off at my boss when he bothers me with it. But I guess this forum is what I need right now. I feel more sanity creeping back into my bones daily. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 12:10:39 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Ditching wk. for forum Message: Yes, I know what you mean. Reading the forum is like another full time job! So many threads, so little time. It looks like the forum has been really active the last few days and I just don't have time to read it. What's a gal to do? My modem at home is very slow so I read a book, fold laundry, write letters, etc. while I'm waiting to read different posts. Isn't that pathetic. I have to get a second telephone line at home to speed things up, just for the purposes of this forum. I got cable TV just so I could watch Mystery Science Theater 3000 which is my favorite show. It always gets me laughing my guts out (and you know how much I like to laugh). Then I joined a gym so that I could occasionally drag my butt there to work out (emphasis on the word occasionally). Now I'll be getting a 2nd phone line. What other expenses can I incur to enjoy my life? You know I probably misrepresent Unitarianism a little when I'm always saying it's a lot like Judaism. Unitarianism was influenced by the German romantic idealist/transcendentalist tradition. It's like Judaism b/c it's monotheistic and focuses on this life here. (Be Here Now, man) Unitarianism used to be considered a Christian religion, but then got kicked out of Christianity cause most Unitarian-Universalists believe that Christ was not the son of God. although there are Christian Unitarians. Anyway, I guess there's something for everybody in this world. I think all this emphasis on the afterlife sort of cheapens life here & diminishes it. This is all we got as far as we know, so we may as well learn our lessons here and try to wake up and live our lives the best we can. One thing I'm sure of, I'd rather have my humanity and no religion, than religion & no humanity. Sorry you lost your mom. That's got to be very difficult. Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 19:50:57 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Helen Subject: I do Message: You are assuming that all mystical experiences or types of faith are acts of unhealthy surrender. Or that faith and reason cannot exist in the same person. I do not believe that. Plus if Robyn found something in a post that touched her, who are you to tell her she does not grasp the meaning of it for herself, just because you don't? That sounds a bit pedantic and paternalistic to me. Helen, I'm not speaking about 'mystical experiences' here but I am saying that faith is indubitably an expression of unhealthy surrender. And maybe faith and reason can cooexist in someone but not on the same point. Faith displaces reason and vice versa. No? And I agree, it might have been a bit presumptuous (I don't know about pedantic or paternalistic, of all things) for Jerry to assume Robyn was just bobbing at pretty words. He should ahve asked her. I must say, though, that I had the same reaction. Here's what Robyn said: Dear Goldy, :) This quote from your post is right on and so well put! Thanks. 'Blindly folowing someone's words does not provide the true mirror of life. They do not understand that 'surrender' does not mean 'self-abandonment'.' Love, Robyn I, too, assume that Robyn doesn't really know what this is about nor could anyone because, as Gerry said, it doesn't mean anything! It IS gobbledygook. Go on, you, Robyn, or GO, try to explain the two concepts of 'surrender' and 'self-abandonment' and how they differ. Explain them, that is, without simply making shit up as you go along. It's just not there. Any more than that 'true mirror of life' non sequitor. I gues it depends on how much language matters to you. I think Robyn's great enthusiam here wasn't so much for what GO was saying in this specific example but for his generally rational approach (so far). She, being Robyn, just wanted to give him a hug and this was the easiest way. Yes, I'm just guessing but that's my bet. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 20:19:58 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: I do Message: And I agree, it might have been a bit presumptuous (I don't know about pedantic or paternalistic, of all things) for Jerry to assume Robyn was just bobbing at pretty words. He should ahve asked her. If I had been wiser, I would have just left Robyn out of it altogether. My main objective was to commend Gerry on his observations about Goldie's post. I was concerned, that by doing so, I would insult Robyn in the process, so I threw in that '(sorry, Robyn)', which hindsight tells me I shouldn't have. But this has turned into an interesting discussion. I too would like somebody to come forward and clarify what Goldie's meaning was, if they can. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 20:39:27 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jim Subject: God in the bones Message: Please read my post 'Clarification' and join me for a cup of coffee. I cannot live a life of only reason, I cannot live a life of only faith. I want a life of balance. My brain and your brain must be made differently. You see, when I try to imagine a life without faith, I imagine it all dark and horrible, like a Salvador Dali painting, or worse. For you, it is not that way I'm sure. Your atheism has freed you. I was raised in a church in DC where Gospel music was sung and where we marched for civil rights. God is a concept, an idea , that is in my very blood & bones. It is inchoate at this point. Could God not be real? I can entertain that thought, yes. There may be no God in the sense of a divine being. I can see that. I can accept that that may be true. But it would take a lot for me to not believe in God just as it would take a lot for you to believe in God. I have been on my knees praying to God so many times, I have been through so much shit, Jim. I cannot see any advantage, ANY at all to my not having my faith. Love, Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 21:17:13 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Helen Subject: God in the bones Message: Helen, I'm not sure what advantage seeing through God is either. So long as your God isn't one you actualyl depend on to do anything, so long as he doesn't stand between you and whatever curtain's within reach that you're trying to open, who cares if he's there in the background? I admit it sure is a neat idea. 'God'! On the other hand, faith is usually used, not as some sort of distant, run-the-race-the-best-you-can-and-if-you-lose-God-will-take-care-of-you-anyway kind of thing. It's usually used to stop your hand from pulling aside some curtain or other. Baaaad! Everywhere reason can go, it should. Everything that can't withstand reason, should fall. If you've got room for God or faith outside of that, like I say, what's the problem? I'm down to decaf, I'm afraid. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 21:37:58 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jim Subject: God in the bones Message: Thanks for the post Jim. I totally agree with you about the curtain metaphor. 'everything that can't withstand reason should fall' I really, really like that. Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 21:36:39 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Helen Subject: God in the bones Message: I wouldn't take these confirmed atheists too seriously, Helen. A few years ago they would have told you that God existed and wanted you to follow the perfect master of our time. All people on this forum have spent a large proportion of their lives believing in God. That's why the fundamental atheism here seems a bit hollow to me. There's more talk about God on the Magical Mystery Tour forum with some interesting discussions going on there. I'm debating with myself whether to delete Jim's post calling Keith an idiot. I mean I'm moderating the forum and it's supposed to be flame free but does calling someone an idiot depict flaming. Mind you, that post was quite funny. And Helen, you might like to have a look at My own web site. There's one or thwo things there you may find interesting. I'm still in the process of building it and there will be more added soon. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 21:41:13 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Sir David Subject: God in the bones Message: Thank you Sir D. I will check them out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 19:37:06 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Forrest Gump's Journey Message: I got this Journeys entry sent in today. It broke every rule I ever tried to make about them (way too big, bizarre file format, no name, no email address), yet I still found myself reading through it (as I cleaned out the junk from some word processor). And I came away from it pretty much feeling the way I did when I left the theater after viewing 'Forrest Gump'. The contributor gives only his initials (A.J.W.), and enough information for Maharaji and any UK (ex)premies to probably figure out who he is. Click here for a great read which features the Toilet Factory, the Drunken Bucket Lady, the Happy Clappers, and the Drips. Enjoy :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 20:39:31 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Brian Subject: Forrest Gump's Journey Message: great story! thanks, whoever you are. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 22:31:10 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Whomever you are Subject: Thanks for a great read, whom- Message: ever you are. I like your ending--the no regrets part. I wish I could say the same. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 22:42:59 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gail Subject: Really well said. Thanks Message: Hey guy, Thanks for all that. I do take issue with your closing thoughts that Maharaji's as much a cult member as the rest of us. Of course that's how he got to where he is but he's processed all the hypocrisy necessary to maintain this trip in his own head. He's got the information to unravel the deceit. We didn't. That, to me, is a critical difference. All the same, yeah, great story. Will you be sticking around and posting here? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 09:30:17 (EST)
From: david m Email: None To: whoever you are Subject: Really well said. Thanks Message: wooow... really great story..but in the end lives are ruined and the whole thing boils down to money$$$$$$$$$$$$$...sure there was love but $$$$$$$$ is and will always be #1...thanks again...david Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 22:44:57 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Brian Subject: Forrest Gump's Journey Message: Geeze that was long! I take issue with his usage of the quote at the very end. Unlike Brian, Maharaji never denied he was the Lord, as far as I know. I did like the Drip parts. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 00:04:47 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Brian Subject: Forrest Gump's Journey Message: Interesting perspective about GM being a victim of the expectations of his upbringing. I thought I had 'no regrets' when I wrote my journey story. After posting here and gaining more understanding about that chapter of my life, I think that was denial. I do have regrets. He really captures the times, the enlightment fever of that time. Fascinating hearing about teaching GM's children, and the backstage insider details at the festivals. What a lot of talent went into those festivals. Hope he gets into the discussion here on the Forum. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 08:09:00 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: A.J.W. Subject: Forrest Gump's Journey Message: Good to read your post, A.J.W. I think I got a job in the same toilet factory as you when I was in Stoke ashram. There aren't many toilet factories in Staffordshire. Yes, I remember youhoo. Amazing to hear your story since I have been away from it all since 1983. I remember those Palace of Peace days and remember you being 'taken up' into his divine presence at the res. You've helped a lot of people with your post, particularly us British premies or ex-premies who know who you are. I don't think you and I ever spoke much personaly but you were a big figure in Maharaji's world in London. Thanks again. You always were one of the good guys and I see you haven't lost your sense of humour. If you ever remember some daft premie accidently setting fire to a tree in Maharaji's garden at the res when he was over enthusiastically starting a bonfire - that was me! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 08:37:31 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Sir David Subject: Burn Down the Mission Message: If you ever remember some daft premie accidently setting fire to a tree in Maharaji's garden at the res when he was over enthusiastically starting a bonfire - that was me! So, I'm wondering David... were you entrusted to guard the Divine Cheese before or after this little incident? [grin] Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 22:56:20 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Brian Subject: and the burning bush Message: Well tree actually. I was horror struck. I had gone through all the vetting procedures and had been classed as officially suitable for doing service at the Lord's divine residence in Reigate. I even passed the last, final interrogation with flying colours when one of the premies doing the grilling reckognised me from my ashram days. And here I was finally, in the hallowed grounds of my beloved Lord. My divine task was to gather up all the tree clippings and burn them. Now not one for half measures, I set up the most glorious bonfire beffitting our Lord. Truly a glory to behold. Standing taller than a man it was a magnificent tribute to the perfect one. Yet how to set this monolith ablaze? Another premie, drunk with the intoxication of serving our Lord, told me that he had a gallon can of petrol in his van which I could sprinkle on my bonfire to get it going. This was surely a sign from above! But I would show the full flame of my devotion and I poured the whole gallon can onto the bonfire, annointing it with the petrol of love. I threw a lit match onto the mound of joy and stood back to witness the full glory of my service. Whhhoooommmffff! The whole bonfire turned into a pillar of flame, shooting forty feet or so into the air and setting fire to the tree which overhung it. Oh no! This was the worst thing that could happen as it blazed out of control like an inferno. What would the Lord say when told that his precious tree had been reduced to a charred lump, just a few yards from his house? First the cheese, and now THIS! Surely I would be banished from the house of the Lord, forever. So I did the brave thing and walked down the hill to where some premies were pruning bushes away from the house and I pretended to know nothing about the burning tree and the inferno. Some premies remarked on the burning tree and thought it must be a sign. Yes I agreed. It's a sign for me to get out of here! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 23:15:42 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Sir David Subject: and the burning bush Message: Thanks for the belly laugh, David! Maybe none of us left Maharaji... maybe he snuck out on us to save his over-serviced ass... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 08:56:01 (EST)
From: AJW Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Forrest Gump's Journey Message: Hi Sir David, You seem to be doing alright since you left the cult. When did you get your knighthood? I worked in Twyfords, Alsager, as a kiln fireman. My memory of Stoke Ashram, is showing up there for the first time after receiving knowledge, just in time to meet the ashram premies on their way out, to do 'propagation'. The lowest member of the pecking order, at the end of the line, wore a sandwich board, with the message, 'The Lord of Light Has Come.' I introduced myself to them. They invited me to join their propagation outing. The one at the end of the line gave a big releived smile, put a stack of 'Divine Times' into my hand, and placed the sandwich board over my head. Was that you Sir David, moving up from the bottom of the pile, passing the sandwich board on to me? All the best. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 14:22:04 (EST)
From: selene Email: None To: AJW Subject: Forrest Gump's Journey Message: That journey entry was great. I had the same drip drip experience. It started with some jerk who had set up a desk at the hotel lobby selling shuttle tickets for the weekend. I told him there was a hotel shuttle already arranged and he said, 'you can support the hotel or you can support Maharaji, it's up to you' drip Then the guys trying to hustle passengers while we waited for the hotel shuttle 'It's going to rain and Maharaji doesn't want his premies to get cold and wet' Of course, both shuttle and rides were more expensive than the hotels. drip. It's just like you said. You go on and then suddenly you wake up. Let's here it for Long Beach!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 22:17:48 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: AJW Subject: Stoke ashram Message: I was Knighted by a Dr Mike Addison who used to post here on the forum. You know I never reached the dizzy heights of walking with the sandwich board. I joined Stoke ashram in the Autumn of 1973 when me and a contingent of other premies were sent from Rugby ashram to increase the strength of propogation in Stoke. Yes, I did work at Twyford's toilet factory. Never got to be a kiln fireman though. I got a job in a tiny office there but left it after only one week as I spent the whole day adding up collumns of figures and it was doing my head in. I got a job at Bilton's too and used to service the ladies with their plates for decorating. Me and my fellow workmate got the nickname, 'Laurel and Hardy' on account of my workmate's hefty build and my rather thin (then) ashram starved physique. I reckon the guy who handed you the sandwich board was Jeff Sales. It sounds just like him to do that and it was just like the ashram secretary, Phil Tonkin, to give him that divine service. I remember now, when I first lived in Stoke ashram that Jeff vowed never again to take that sandwich board out and he smashed it up just to make sure. Jeff married a Vicars daugter, Theresa, in the end. Both great people and I miss them both. I think you may have known Phil Tonkin and Jeff because Phil talked about you sometimes and about the divine school you were setting up. I even vaguely remember you dropping into the ashram when I was there. You'll rember Lin, our housemother and all the rest of the guys. I dfisliked the ashram life intensely but stuck with it. But I got to know some great people in the community there. Perhaps I'll give Jeff a call, he's probably in the phone book. Cheers. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 16:35:18 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: AJW Subject: Forrest Gump's Journey Message: Great journey AJW! Thanks very much. Regards, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 17:51:26 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: To: AJW Subject: Forrest Gump's Journey Message: Thank you for writing your journey. It was very interesting and very well written. I particularly liked those questions you asked at the end. They were very like questions that occurred to me when I left the cult in 1983. The one about new people 'running a mile.' I remember there was great fanfare when Maharaji came to San Francisco in 1981 and did an introductory program. The people I brought were bored to tears because M was so incoherent, and I think a total of 7 people came to a follow-up program. This kind of got me thinking. And the answers were even more confronting, because I was a premie who sometimes spoke like an idiot and treated people badly. That was even worse. And the 'spreader of chaos', David Smith, was also instrumental in my seeing what an abusive, mindless, stale, and valueless organization, Maharaji's cult was. But, as to Maharaji being a victim, I agree and I disagree. I agree that he has had an incredibly bizarre life. Being worshipped since the age of 2, and never having anyone tell him he is stupid, full of shit, off the wall, greedy, incoherent, and all the other stuff that SHOULD have been expressed to him, can create delusions of grandeur, which no doubt Maharaji has had from time to time, particularly when he was younger. But I don't think it's that simple. I think sometimes he believes his delusions and sometimes he doesn't. I really think it's possible to be deluded to different degrees at different times. But now that he's 40 or 41, I believe that Maharaji is aware that it's mainly a con game he is playing, but that's mixed in with some misguided desire to follow his father's 'work,' along with the desire to avoid the embarrassment and ego-damage of coming clean. Plus, if there are enough premies still around willing to worship him and give him money, why mess with something that's working? The fact that he puts so much more energy and attention into his own wealth and lifestyle than he does to 'doing Shri Maharaji's work', is pretty convincing proof of what he is really about. Actions speak a lot louder than words. For me, coming to this objective conclusion about Maharaji was the hardest thing to do and came last in my ridding myself of the programming of the cult. Maharaji himself was the inviolate part of the programming. As you said, you can hate everything else in the bizarre cult world: premies, power plays, weird people, dumb videos, and the rest, but Maharaji is protected. Even after I left, I continued to make excuses for him, for example that he was sincere but deluded, or that he was a victim himself. But, eventually, that fell away, too. It's kind of like that movie Titanic. You almost have to get away from it for awhile to realize how BAD it REALLY WAS! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 19:52:44 (EST)
From: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: AJW Subject: Journey Entry Message: Thanks for the journey entry, AJW, it really brought back a lot of memories. Although I'm American and had most of my premie/ashram 'career' in the U.S., I received Knowledge in England around that time (1972) and remember how nuts it all was. Your entry made me *so* glad I wasn't trying to practice Knowledge with children! Sounds even harder than doing full time 'service' and living in the ashram, where they worked us to death. I remember being in the 'printing ashram' in North London somewhere (can't remember exactly where it was, the memory's getting a bit sketchy 26 years later), but mainly I don't remember where it was because I didn't really knowwhere I was, we didn't see much of the light of day, or do anything except our service, 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. I remember getting mad once and insisting on going to satsang at least once a week, because the Lord had decreed 'satsang, service AND meditation', not just endless service. So once a week we'd all pile into the van and head out to the Palace of Peace or wherever else it was happening, like a bunch of kids on a holiday outing. Pretty pathetic. Then when the focus of energy (or rather darshan) shifted to Denver from London, I got fed up because Peter Potter wouldn't give me the money to buy underwear (there's only so long one can go on the same two pair of ratty underwear) or any other form of basic clothing (I'd been working for them 12 hours a day, seven days a week for at least a year by then), so asked if I could have a ticket back to America. I think he was probably glad to see the back of this unsurrendered American, so grudgingly gave me a one-way ticket back to Denver. But that's a whole other story . . . Anyhow, glad you saw the 'light of day' so to speak, that Maharaji's no more divine than anybody else. It's *so* obvious to me that premies still worship him as divine, it's like a strange unspoken undercurrent to the way things are now, and it's also so obvious that Maharaji still believes it himself, though everyone takes great pains to deny it and pretend it's all normal somehow. What a joke. I think Maharaji has to perpetrate that illusion, or else the whole thing might collapse down like a house of cards, nobody'd send him any money or bother flying hither and yon to see him if he wasn't God, after all. So while Knowledge may be beneficial to some people, as claimed over on Enjoyinglife (though I somehow doubt it's Knowledge they're really talking about -- it's the devotional trip that's got the juice), it's important for people such as ourselves to continue to blow the whistle to show people what's really happening here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 06:59:37 (EST)
From: John Sharp Email: songbird@treetop.win-uk.net To: Brian Subject: Forrest Gump's Journey Message: Dear AJW Dozed off in bed last at page 13 of your story last night; just finished reading it this morning. Great stuff, well written, well done! In fact, I'm meeting my ex-wife for tea this afternoon, and I thought I'd take her a copy to read. We both became ex-premies long before our marriage to each other broke apart. In fact, when we started living together, back in 1984, neither of us could be bothered to meditate any more. Frankly, sex was a more attractive activity. Neither of us have 'practiced knowledge' since then! I liked your youngest son's comparison between Maharaji and Hitler. It made me think of how all those nasty-looking henchmen used to jostle for proximity to and favour with the Führer. I imagine those lucky super-premies whom Maharaji choses to surround himself with wouldn't dare to challenge M's authority for fear of immediate expulsion (shame! disgrace!) from the party. By the way, I think I know you..... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 07:08:17 (EST)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Everyone Subject: Help! Serious computer problem Message: This is off the topic of this forum so you can email me any replies if you think it's more applicable. I have a serious problem with two computers. I've just bought a new computer with Windoze98 on and I've done a msbackup from my old computer with Dos6 and Windoze3.1 on. I did the msbackup using the program in Dos6. Now I cannot find any way to restore my backup onto the new Windoze98 computer. There is no corresponding program to the msbackup in the old Dos6. The backup system that Win98 and its Dos8 counterpart uses is totally different to the backup system on my old computer. Is this a conspiracy by Bill Gates to make us buy new software? I've been able to copy files from one to another but it will take forever to copy everything from the old to the new computer. Has anyone else realised this problem with the incompatable Microsoft backup programs? If so, did you solve it? Any info will be greatly appreciated. I will of course, try phoning Microsoft or some computer experts in the week but perhaps there's an answer known by someone here. Thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 10:21:15 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Sir D Subject: Help! Serious computer problem Message: David, I think you're going to have to use a third party backup system that supports both 95 and 98. Yes, I have encountered this problem myself, once, when I tried to backup with a DOS 6.20 version and restore it to a computer loaded with DOS 6.22. Microsoft apparently has made their backup software incompatible from one version to the next. The shit that they can get away with.... I would be careful not to backup any system files. If you overwrite Windows 98 files with Windows 95 files, you'll probably bring your system to a grinding halt and have to re-install everything. Good luck. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 11:15:53 (EST)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jerry Subject: Help! Serious computer problem Message: Thanks Jerry. I have been looking for an independent backup program which uses any version of dos. On my old computer it's 6.2 and I run Win3.1 by the way. The only files I'm backing up to put on the new computer are the endless data files I have for my DTP and databases. Thankfully my Timeworks publisher DTP program just copies over onto the new computer and my DataEase database program does the same. I lost the installation disks for these years ago. I noticed when I changed from Dos5 to Dos6, some years ago that the backup programs were incompatable then, too. And if I tried to use the dos5 restore.exe on the dos6 computer, it gave an incompatable Dos version error message. Bill Gates has a lot to answer for and I dislike his attempt to monopolise the computer industry, intensely. ANyone know of a good dos backup program which will work with both Dos6.2 and Dos8, by the way? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 17:07:21 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Sir D Subject: Help! Serious computer problem Message: If you search the net, you can probably find a small but functional backup utility you can download for free. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 13:45:32 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Sir D Subject: Win98 Message: Buy a cheap network kit with 2 cards and a cable and you can connect your old and new machine into a little network using the Windows98 machine as the file server. Soon you will be a network pro like Mike. A tip: Learn to use the application Windows Explorer in Windows98 to navigate files and cut/copy/move/paste files and Find files. When I move or copy a file I right click on the file and drag it so I can get a menu asking wether I wanted to copy or move the file. The reason is that I often forget which is the default for a left click drag. You can right click the mouse on almost anything to get a menu of relavent ops. Properties is often a useful choice. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 21:13:31 (EST)
From: Sir Computer-Deficient Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: CD Subject: Win98 Message: Jerry; I'll continue to search the net for such a program. Thanks. CD; I like the idea of becoming a network pro like Mike. Is that all it takes? Two cards and a cable. What kind of cards? Playing cards, cigarette cards or perhaps filing cards? And does this mean I have to take the top off my computer? Now is that really a good idea for a non hardware expert like me? Mmm. I've found the most irritating thing about Windows Explorer is its inability to have two windows open at once, unlike the old File Manager which I prefer. Tonight I copied some files from drive A to drive C and in the old File Manager I'd just tile the windows for A and C and then drag them across but it's a rather fiddly business in Explorer. You're a fan of Bill Gates, I can see but I am extremely irritated by the way he keeps inventing new software which is incompatable with the old stuff. Alsotonight I had a look at the new Microsoft Works and I must say, I'm not impressed. For ease of use and logicity I'd give it 2 out of 10. I've seen and used much better suites. By the way CD, do you know if the company, DataEase is still going in America? I have and use their old Dos database which is absolutely brilliant. Fully relational and easy to program. I heard a wisper that they had finally got a Windows version to run on Win95 but nobody seems to have any info over here. I really would like to upgrade to there Windows version just so I can keep pace with the technology. I've looked at Microsoft Access and it's not a patch on my Dos DataEase database. But then you wouldn't agree... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 22:56:21 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Sir Computer-Deficient Subject: DataEase Message: David, I have someone checking on this for you. If they come up with anything, I will email you. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 11:33:40 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: CD Subject: Win98 Message: CD: Hey.... was that supposed to be an insult????? he he he. That isn't a bad choice, by the way. I have found that it 'may' be a little difficult for a first-timer unless there is some hand-holding in the process. Sir D, if you decide to go this route, now or in the future, don't hesitate to use the talent that is present here (there's quite a bit of it, I think). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 15:00:56 (EST)
From: An ex-geek Email: None To: Mike Subject: Networking computers Message: Mike, you know and I know and CD knows, too, that only a geek would even attempt to network 2 computers together. Anybody else would go bananas from frustration and boredom within an hour. Jerry Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 01:31:05 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: a letter to pravda Message: Here's a letter I just wrote the editors at Enjoyinghiding.org: Jonathan and friends, I'd hoped to hear from you after my last email but so far nothing. Should I stop awaiting an answer? You know, as I read the various entires on your page I can't help but cringe at the obvious level of pasteurizing you must be putting them through. I can't imagine how you expect to have a 'Conversations' section without all hell breaking loose. Are you guys familiar with the UNcensored premie page? No one uses it. I don't even know how one finds it. It was started by one of the ex's as something of a lark, a symbolic challenge to Maharaji to let his followers talk about him on the internet. The only premies who psoted there expressed quite understandable suspicion that their using the site would only give us ex's something to ridicule. Eventually, David who started the page gave it over to a premie, Chris Dickey, and I think he now manages it. One of Chris' first acts -- maybe his only act -- as steward of that forum was to sever the link from that to another page David had started, a page where premies could post comments to Maharaji. I wish I had the link to THAT page around here because I'd like to show it to you. What's so interesting is that the twenty or so premies who actually used that comments to Maharaji page sure sound different than the ones who post on your page. For one thing, they don't all sound alike. For another, many of them actually address Maharaji as 'Lord' and such. Similarly, I remember the many premies who posted on Harlan and Mili's page before it was shut down by PAM. Lots of them called Maharaji 'Lord' and openly discussed worshipping him in the 'old school' sense. Haven't any of them written you? And what about all the premies who slobber their devotion on the ex page from time to time? Don't you ever hear from them? Lots of them don't know the newspeak. Do you teach it to them or simply translate their 'messages from the heart'? Is it mere chance that none of these 'out of synch' premies have ever sent you something? Or is that where the censor's knife comes in? Maybe knife and putty perhaps? Here are some comments from a premie called 'Golden Oldie' on the uncensored premie forum (which can be found at http://www.paradise-web.com/plus_le/plus.mirage?who=premieforum) : How can having Knowledge of Truth be threated by any situation. If it is so weak then it doesn't stand the test. I have had Knowledge for 25+ years and I have always mixed with all types. I hate to say this, but the ex-premies are giving the realest communications around the premie/ex-premie community. I am a premie and I've never been shy in saying what I believe about maharaji(i.e. that he is God). It seems to me that most 'premies' have the disease of social respectability that maharaji spoke about in the peace-bomb satsang. Someone honestly hating Maharaji is more real than most of the premies stupid paraphrases. According to Maharaji, human honesty is a prerequisite to devotion(quote'if you want devotion, find your humanness first'). That is why premies should be open and able to speak with anybody about the truth. That is what REAL practise is. It is a complete thing. Truth IS the Consciousness of Bliss. I'd never heard of or from this person before. Indeed, as you might imagine, I was impressed by his integrity and invited him to email me or pop in on the ex forum but he hasn't done so yet. This got me wondering though, you must have gotten email like this yourself, haven't you? Tell me no premie's written you to criticize your Stalinist approach to 'communication'. I figure there must be more than one Golden Oldie out there. What you guys are doing is shameless. I predict, quite frankly, that someday you'll live to apologize for this. Just trying to help, Your fellow traveller on this long and winding road, Jim Heller Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 07:23:17 (EST)
From: Web Watcher Email: None To: Jim Subject: Here's the link to honesty Message: If you want to see what's REALLY happening in the lives of premies and post some uncensored thoughts and feelings to your brothers and sisters or to Maharaji then go to the uncensored premie web site and read the honest and sincere outpourings of the REAL premies. This should be the site which Maharaji visits daily and holds dear to his heart. Honesty and openness from his sincere devotees. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 22:00:01 (EST)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: Fifth Estate Message: I chanced upon this 'Pieman' website (hhtp://.www.pieman.org) where a whole series of cream-pie incidents are listed, carried out apparently, by the guy who runs the website. Many rich and pompous fools are pictured there getting no less than they deserved. One passage reads: In the spring of 1973, Rennie Davis, one of the Chicago 8, who became aconvertto the cult of Guru Maharaj Ji, came to NYC's Lower East Side to proselytize on the Guru's behalf. AbbieHoffman,JerryRubin and other movement people were there to watch the circus.Rennie came out onto the stage and I landed a pie onto the floor. The Gurunoidsstarted to lick it off the floor. Interesting, I thought. I emailed the site with regard to the Fakiranand / Pat Haley incident, detailing what has been reported here, to see if this particular pieman had been involved, or otherwise knew more about it than we do. Pieman replied - for which I was grateful - but I got the impression he wasn't that keen to discuss things much further. His reply: 'no, that wasn't me, that was pat halley of fifth estate, detroit, michigan...however i'm not interested in gurunoia' I guess I might have come across as a conspiracy theorist. But the allegations surrounding the Haley event are, if true, very serious ones. I'm wondering if there is any way to proceed on this. Meanwhile, what is the 'fifth estate'? I keep hearing about it but don't know what it means. (Closeted UK upbringing) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 23:44:23 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Fifth Estate Message: Fifth Estate is just the name of the newspaper Pat Halley worked for. I believe it was a small ''alternative'' paper. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 11:44:25 (EST)
From: Laura Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Fifth Estate Message: Dear Nigel, I was there the for Rennie's talk that night. For what it's worth I specicially remember tomatoes being thrown, maybe I missed the pie. Tomato pie? I also remember a lot of boos and hisses, unusual for satsang. But there were many political types in the audience and they were heckling Rennie. Sincerely, Laura Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 10:15:47 (EST)
From: Paul Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Fifth Estate Message: Nigel: I believe the 5th estate refers to newspapers/media in general. I think it has a European (French?) origin. I can't remember what the first 4 estates(God?, King ? Church?) are but I'm sure someone out there does. Paul Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 11:10:18 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Fifth Estate Message: Paul is giving you wrong information here. The ''fourth estate'' refers to journalism. The Fifth Estate was indeed the name of an alternative newspaper Halley worked for. The name is a play on words. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 16:13:06 (EST)
From: Pual Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Your right Message: Thanks for the correction Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 20:00:19 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Fifth Estate Message: The Fifth Estate is also a CBC documentary-style news show. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 19:35:57 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Premie compliation album Message: Over on Breastswithoutnipples.org David Andersen has posted something about a new premie song album coming out. It's cleverly entitled 'Global Devotion 99'. He mentioned that they're looking for pieces for the next CD, the excellent working title for which is 'Global Deovtion 2000', so I emailed the following: 'Dear David, I noticed your post on the premie page and thought I'd offer you this little ditty of mine my band, The X-Flies, does: BOLLYWOOD My guru came from Bollywood And he won't go back He's making all his videos For the love attack My guru lives in Malibu Now imagine that He must have done something right Cause he's kept himself so fat Yes he's still so fat Yes he's stil so fat My guru said a lot of stuff But all of it's so thin You wonder how he got so far With ugly greasy skin Ugly greasy skin Ugly greasy skin My guru is the Lord of all Or so he said You'd think he know a little more Than saying seeds are dead My guru is a hypocrite Now imagine that! He claimed he'd save the whole wide world But he's just full of shit He's so full of shit He's so full of shit David, I know it doesn't scan well on paper but believe me this song works! Smooth punk bossa nova sound everyone likes, and people often sing along on the choruses even the first time they hear it. There's something so basic about 'ugly, greasy skin' or 'he's so full of shit'. Believe me, if you want to reach people these days you've got to touch them in their hearts. That's why I'd like to make this offering available to my brothers and sisters. By the way, isn't it a good thing that your brother's article never got published? I never saw it but I talked with him a number of times when he was writing it. My take is that either it would have really pissed you and your sister off or it would have gotten him laughed out of town for going soft on this despicable excuse for a human being, Maharaji. What's your opinion? Cheers, Jim Heller' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 21:37:11 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jim Subject: Premie compliation album Message: You're such a bad boy, Jim, I LOVE it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 21:11:39 (EST)
From: RT Email: mmm To: Jim Subject: Premie compilation album Message: Very good, Lord Jim! LIS (Laughing In Side) RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 13:38:27 (EST)
From: Laura Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Explain it to me Message: O.K., so I'm dumb about some things. What I would like is for someone else besides me to respond to Wildman on the Premie/Sexuality thread. Or, explain why this is a joke or ? P.S. Sorry, I seem to be hung up on Wildman's post, it enrages me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 13:59:13 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Laura Subject: Explain it to me Message: Dear Laura, You are NOT dumb. I should have said something to you before now, but I too was VERY offended by his post. There is a difference between enjoying healthy sex and USING everything as an opportunity to get sex, which Wildman seemed to be implying. It just seemed kind of lowlife & predatory to me. I dunno, was he joking? But you know, I opened up that whole can of worms around sexuality and some folks are definitely out to get it wherever and whenever they can. The 'little brain' takes over for the big brain so to speak. What do you men out there think? Speak up: Is WIldman's post an honest expression of testosterone or is it a bit cheesey? Love, Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 14:14:17 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: glyng@techline.com To: Laura Subject: Explain it to me Message: Laura, In my opinion, there real deal with the cult was that it revolved around money, power and sex. We lowly premies were lead to believe it was about enlightenment, spirituality and god realization. Now I don't know if there is such a thing as enlightenment or not, although some people claim to have an ''awakening'' of sorts. I attended a talked by this one guy last May, came away snickering and denigrating the whole trip, but was struck fifteen minutes later by a state of bliss which lasted for a day and a half. It happened, what can I say? I do believe it is a matter of brain chemistry, but so what? Some how my ''bliss button'' was switched on. I liked it. A lot. Now this guy Wildman may have been more in tune with the real agenda of the cult and the ones in ''power.'' He does sound like someone who espouses the Playboy philosophy more than a devotee seeking god. I can understand how this would be insulting to you as woman and a sincere seeker. All I can say is don't let it bother you (easy for me to say, I know). It just show the true nature of the rawat cult. I know this is a pretty poor response, but I hope it covers your post to me below. Please feel free to e-mail me. I don't have a lot to offer in terms of answers, but would be happy to correspond with you as a friend. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 16:42:57 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Laura Subject: Explain it to me Message: Hi Laura - People like Wildman - or maybe the same person - have posted on here before about the sexual availability of all the premie women, particularly the 'celibate' women in the ashram who were SUPPOSEDLY just dying to have sex. I never lived in the ashram but I had friends that did, and they tried very hard to keep their vows of chastity. I knew people who felt that they were terrible if they even had a sexual thought about another premie 'brother' or 'sister'. I do know some couples who fell in love and sex while they were both living in the ashram. These people usually ended up leaving the ashram and getting married. Maybe I lived in a really conservative premie community, or maybe all this happenened after I left the M cult, or maybe I was just very naive and didn't see all the wild sex that was going on. Or maybe there wasn't that much wild sex going on. Anyway, I didn't like Wildman's post either, and I don't think you were weird to respond to it as you did. Take care, Laura - Katie P.S. I am not all that interested in Maharaji and Marolyn's extra-marital sex life either. What I mean here is PLEASE spare me the details (I feel the same way about the Starr Report). I did like Jerry's post about M's first child being born by immaculate conception, though! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 17:04:54 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Laura Subject: Explain it to me Message: I kind of liked your response to Wildman, Laura. It shows you have spunk. Good for you. Like Helen says... 'You go, girl!' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 17:29:37 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Laura Subject: In defense of Wildman Message: Laura, I don't know if Wildman's for real or not but nothing in his post convinces me that he can't be. Again, I can't comment on his specific stories. I never heard of Bihari Singh 'banging' any premie 'chicks' and the only time I went up to the residence when I lived in L.A. (after an all-nighter downtown) the only premie 'chick' I met was the slave that drove up in the morning with Maharaji's Sunday paper and fresh orange juice from the Trancas Market. Maybe she was horney as hell but I just got the impression she wanted to know who the hell my friend and I were, looking distinctively un-premie like and all, and then wanted to get into the house to serve her master. Give him the juice, I mean. She DID smile when we spoke. I might have been slow to pick up on her real message. No, seriously, I recall the very night I was formally initiated into the cult in April, 74, I met some guy in the Denver premie house I was staying at who told me about how great sex was supposedly 'on the word'. Of course I neither asked for nor wanted such advice. I wanted 'purity' and all that shit. At least then, I did. But there were definitely guys I knew who were a little more casual about their god-realization. Guys who still wanted to fool around and who did indeed find satsang a perfect place to meet girls. What, you're surprised by this? Now here's what I think. It's possible that in the last 15 or so years, when k-lite took over and no talsk about a path to anywhere, no one talks about aesthetic-style austerities and such, this kind of thinking's only grown in popularity. After all, if premies aren't supposed to be celibate what do you think's going to happen when you toss a bunch of people together on the basis of love, love, love? There's going to be a lot of 'love'. But 'premie chick' availability? Shit, I don't know. I'm not sure what the real culture's like -- the unstated one beneath the EnjoyingLife-like covers, so to speak. Maybe it is a bit of a scene like that. Maybe it is in Wildman's experience anyway. My only point is that he might be telling the truth, rather brazenly of course..... You know, as I write this I'm thinking, 'naw, that's ridiculous. There's no way Maharji ever walked in on Bihari Singh having sex with anyone and said anything of the sort.' No, that's ridiculous alright. Yeah, I'm starting to think that, despite whatever else I said about the casual-sex lovers in Maharaji's World (hey, does anyone ever use that term anymore?), Wildman's pulling our legs here. I mean he must be, mustn't he? Yeah, sure he is. Okay, so the general point stands but so does my agreement that Wildman must be having us on. Sorry for the confusion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 19:17:31 (EST)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jim & Laura Subject: Fuck Wildman Message: Jim, I think you're maybe missing Laura's real point. Wildman comes over as a mysoginist asshole who isn't worth the time of day. Less what he said than the way he said it. Maybe Brian should extend his criteria for banning obnoxious posters. Just my tuppenceworth. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 19:40:58 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Was Henry Miller a misogyinst? Message: Well? Was he? Look, I know I'll never win this argument which is, by the way, only for the sake of argument. But go ahead, tell me why Wildman is so bad. First of all, are you sure his stories are false? Is he a misogynist for bullshitting as he has or for reporting his own, base, superficial sexual habits? Go ahead. Let me have it. But don't forget, I was a premie goody-goody and I'm now a very nice, faithful boyfriend in a wholesome, healthy -- excuse me for a sec... gotta go... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 19:43:02 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: one more minor concession Message: he shouldn't have called them all fat and ugly. That's was uncalled for. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 20:16:43 (EST)
From: Nigel Email: None To: Jim Subject: I'm glad Arthur Miller isn't. Message: Maybe Henry Miller was a mysoginist. If not that, then certainly sexist - and maybe just a little racist. I remember he especially enjoyed 'an Egyptian fuck' in Tropic of Capricorn. Lawrence Durrell (friend of HM) screwed his own daughter and justified it. I think they had small willies. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 21:34:18 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Nigel & Jim Subject: Cheesy, Sleazy Message: Yeah, I read most of The Alexandria Quartet by Durrell and thought it was great and then I read an article about him about how he had incested his daughter and it made me want to throw up. Anais Nin (good pal of Henry Miller) also had sex with her father. Anyway, I thought Wildman's post was offensive but I wouldn't go so far as to call him a misogynist (unless other evidence comes in). He did come off as somewhat of a jerk. I would just say that men that boast about their sexual prowess are not exactly endearing to most women. Tony Kornheiser ( a columnist at The Wash. Post) had a hilarious column the other day telling men what NOT to put in their personal ads, ie, : 'insatiable sexual appetite'. It is that antiquated Hugh Hefner thing all over again (as pointed out by Jerry). I mean it's been spoofed so much (ie, AUstin Powers, etc) that you can't imagine Wildman was serious. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 23:40:48 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Helen Subject: Steamy and Sexy- OT, sorta Message: Ever watch the movie Henry and June? Real, uh, interesting, especially if viewed in the boudoire. :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 08:02:51 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Steamy and Schemey (ot) Message: I used to be a huge Anais Nin fan, then I figured out that she was a scam--mooching off her rich husband's $ while having a zillion affairs. Her rich husband supported her so she could play the role of the starving artist bohemian. That seems kinda inauthentic to me, as they say. For example, hubby foot the bill when she wanted to live on a houseboat (sooo artsy & beautifull) and she entertained her lovers there. And she lied to her husband their whole marriage. Oh well, she DID have a really screwed up relationship with her dad, so she was probably screwed up for life by that. I do like some of her writing though! I just think her behavior in real life was kinda cruddy. Never saw that film tho I'd like to. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 12:06:27 (EST)
From: Laura Email: None To: All Subject: The Wildebeest Message: I guess I objected to the grossness of the post. If you're out for sex go to a sex club or a bar or something. If you're into God realization than go to satsang. I didn't think about having a sex at all. and that's how I thought it was, sexless. My eyes were closed to what was going on, sexually and I guess in every other way imaginable too. I had a 'boyfriend' while living in the ashram. I never remember even being kissed. Sisterd bodies were covered with long sleeve shirts and long skirts year round. Fakiranand said that sex, touching, skin-to-skin was gross. I believed him. The light, word etc. was who we really were, we were the object of the techniques and realizing them would bring us bliss. Sex would not. That's what i remember. All those years, that young sweet body gone to waste . . . oh i'm on the forum, excuse me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 13:01:34 (EST)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Laura Subject: The Wildebeest Message: Oh so that's why Fuckiranand smashed that guy's head in with a hammer, rather than strangle him - he thought that skin to skin contact was ungodly whereas a hammer bashed against a skull was not. I hope you don't still believe all that crap, Laura and get yourself a healthy sex-life if you want one. A close relationship is a most natural thing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 13:27:25 (EST)
From: Laura Email: None To: Sir D Subject: The Wildebeest Message: No, I don't still believe all that crap. It takes a huge opening up for me to say that a relationship is even what I want. I still have GM's voice in my head: If you want that ONE thing,that thing that will bring you happiness,etc, that thing that won't die . . . So it's not Knowledge, is it relationship? Is it any one thing at all? Is it God? So then we put all this energy, this time, into a relationship, what happens when it ends, or the person dies, or feelings change. We see this all the time. Is it worth it? I know it's really lonely without it. I've been opening up lately and looking for that relationship - my past relationships haven't been healthy/close/natural/with sex and all wrapped up in one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 13:50:10 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Laura Subject: Our Bodies are BEAUTIFUL Message: Dear Laura, I used to worry a lot about my loved ones (my husband, daughter) dying, I worried about giving my heart and having it stomped on. Then I finally said 'to hell with it, I can't live my life in fear.' Laura, sounds like you are going through a lot. Just take it one day at a time. If you find a good man to love, and that's what you want, you may find that there's a lot of beauty and goodness in good old fashioned intimacy. My God, it's taken me 14 years to let my husband love me, it doesn't happen overnight. I had so much baggage to work through. Also, friendship is a most wonderful thing too, & hey, we all have baggage, we can all help each other. Sometimes spiritual trips create a split--spirit-good, body-bad. Our bodies are US, and we are of the flesh. Our bodies give us so much information and do so much for us. We should honor these bodies of ours. How long did you live in the ashram, Laura? I wish you peace of mind and body. Love, Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 14:01:55 (EST)
From: Laura Email: None To: Helen Subject: Our Bodies are BEAUTIFUL Message: I lived in and out of ashrams for a couple of years. New York and Denver mostly. Followed GM around the States and Canada and a few other countries for a few years and believed in him for about 25. Found this site about 3 months ago while looking to reconnect with premies, and realized .... The same thing we're all still realizing, that GM is a fraud. Thanks for wishing me the best and I wish the best to you too! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 17:21:58 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Laura Subject: Our Bodies are BEAUTIFUL Message: Dear Laura, I do hope you are getting stronger through your envolvement here. I can't add anything to that beautiful post Hellen wrote to you. I know you have a lot of support from the people here. I am sorry I don't 'know' you better but I did want you to know that I feel for you and hope your process gets easier with the passage of time. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 21:59:12 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Laura Subject: Love is better than no love Message: My brother in law, Phillip, married my sister after her first marriage broke up and had nine good years with her. The last three she was dying of cancer but he loved her right to the end and she died in his arms in their dream home by the sea. Now Phillip has no regets about loving my sister, Maggie. Sure the pain of losing a loved one can hurt but then that is something we understand when we love. If one of my daughters were to die, I would be heartbroken and being a parent, I worry all the time about them. But that is a price easily paid with the currency of love. I don't mind. Because love will suffer the pain and heartache that can go with it. Love will always endure and never hold back for fear of losing. That is the nature of love. In the time we spend here, what better thing to do than to love each other without reservations or without counting the cost. ANd where is God? He is there when we love because that is what He is. The people in our life need our love and we need theirs'. That is why we are here. Tonight I held my seven year old daughter in my arms as she went off to sleep in bed. I often do that. Who know what tomorrow brings, I love her NOW and mean to show it! You know, Maharaji doesn't practise what he has ever preached. His words have no value at all. He was freaking out when Marolyn nearly died. Hardly the detatched realised soul! We're all human and nobody has ever transcended their natural human nature. Maharaji certainly hasn't and I only wish he had owned up to that instead of preaching a philosophy which is quite impossible to follow. In those years we spent denying outr human nature, he was having a ball with his. Forget anything he said, Laura. He wasn't the Lord. The one who really IS the Lord wants us to love without fear as mentioned above. Look, I've meditated and experience much from meditation and it has never ever taken me away from my human nature. It's just a relaxation method and often my human nature has gotten even more rampant after some good meditation, if you know what I mean! And yes Laura, I do pray. And I pray that you will feel the burden lifted from your shoulders and know that you are loved not just by people but by the One who knows all the people, intimately by name. I pray that you'll get a hint of His love for you, His unconditional love which loves you incredibly and fantastically all the time, regardless of what you may think of yourself. I pray that you'll feel a lightness and the heaviness will drift away like an Autumn mist. Yes, that is good. We can pray for each other... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 10:11:09 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Love is better than no love Message: Thank you Sir D. Your post brought tears to my eyes especially the part about your sister, brother in law, and your dear daughters. Perhaps if Maha raji had shown more of his human side we wouldn't all be so pissed off at him now. Then again, if he had shown his human side he would have had to come down off his throne and get down with us mere mortals with our anxieties, brokenness, doubts and fears. (No doubt Maharaji has all of the above--in spades) No thank you to transcendence for me anymore. I want life here on this planet, now that I am finally able to enjoy it, all of it, with the bitter & the sweet. Love, Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 03, 1998 at 08:44:15 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Sir David Subject: Love is better than no love Message: Dear Sir, You post here is so beautiful. You seem to have a great capacity for love and it has once again brought tears to my eyes. I hope your words help Laura, I know they help me. Thanks. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 21:45:39 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Robyn Subject: Whole lotta love Message: Well Robyn & Helen; sometimes I think I'm mistaken posting on this forum as I feel like I left behind the Maharaji trip so long ago. But it's a good place to bare my soul and my true feelings now and then and tell people what is really important to me. I can see that what's important to me is important to you also. That's good and makes it all worthwhile. Here's sending you a whole lotta love, now and always... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 23:42:16 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Whole lotta love Message: I certainly hope you'll keep posting. A lot of us left the trip long ago, but it's a part of our experience. I am glad for one, to know another person here on The Forum who believes in God. But I think it's very cool to talk to all sorts of people on this forum. To me it's a tribute to the fact that we all got our heads screwed back on after having lost our brains for awhile. It's very cold here on the East Coast of the U.S. All of a sudden the warm fall weather disappeared, we had a frost, and all my flowers died. SO I am all bundled up, drinking a cup of tea. Good night to you in jolly old England Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 11:55:01 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Helen Subject: Whole lotta love Message: Dear Helen, Were on the East Coast. I am in PA and it got cold here fast too! Dear Sir, Thanks for your acknowlegement too David. :) Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 22:17:22 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Laura Subject: The Wildebeest-Laura Message: Laura, I think relationships are worth it. Upon death, I wouldn't want to think that I had lived without having love in my life. Life has bad parts (bad things happening to people you love, people you love being taken from you) but the good parts are so wonderful that they make it worthwhile. I've been thinking about this a lot lately as a parent. Sometimes being a parent is like wearing your heart outside of your body. Even so, it's worth it. I think it's the same way with any close relationship. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 14:14:07 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Laura Subject: Explain it to me Message: Hi Laura I didn't read forum this weekend, but I do remember thinking 'what an asshole' when I read Wildman's post Friday. I decided to wait to respond and than forgot about the whole thing. You said it better than I would have. He probably doesn't get laid much with an attutude like that! Our so called community was pretty wild back then. But there was the illusion of caring sort of, I mean it wasn't as crude as that post. If I could click and drag I would just move that post up under the 'teeny weeny' part of the thread. Seems to belong there. :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 09:08:13 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Happy Hallo'ween Message: Happy Hallo'ween everyone! I guess in Australia, Canada, and England, Hallo'ween is not as big a deal, although I'm sure the American influence is felt round the world, just like a Big Mac! I just wanted to tell you all what this website and all of you have come to mean to me. After I was done with the Guru trip, I felt like Humpty Dumpty. All the king's horses and men and all the therapy in the world couldn't quite put me together again. I sorta had to just muddle along, building a new life, and I did build a good one. But finding this website I truly feel like the pieces of the puzzle are all finally fitting together. There's nothing to match 'talking with' and 'listening to' people who have gone through the same or similar experiences & who have gone through the arduous, anguished process of 'breaking away'! WHo else can understand what is was like? It IS stranger than fiction and hard to describe!! Thank you, thank you all! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 13:16:06 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Helen Subject: Happy Hallo'ween Message: Hi Helen, Thanks for what you said. I'm glad that you found this web site too - your contributions have been great. It also makes me feel good that reading and writing on here have made you feel better about life in general. Hope you keep on posting! Love, Katie P.S. I hate to be a wet blanket about Halloween (I used to like the holiday until it got so violent), but please make sure to keep your pets inside or in a safe place tonight. I am sure there are many safety precautions to be taken for kidsas well, but the parents on the site will know those better than I do. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 14:00:55 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Katie Subject: Happy Hallo'ween Message: Thanks Katie. That's a good reminder about pets. I lost my dear Shepherd-Husky of 11 years this past summer ):, but I will make sure Tinkie WInkie the guinea pig is safe & sound! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 15:56:32 (EST)
From: rt Email: mmm To: gouls and guys Subject: Happy Hallo'ween: idea to wear Message: Just a little share. [1975: 'RT, would you like to share your experience with all of us?' 'Oh yes, sister!']....UGH Anyway, my costume is the same each year: I wear all black and hang a mirror around my neck, a small 4' diameter vanity mirror, and so go as THE MOON. A Label on jacket reads: You look marvelous! Thus people, who are really mostly interested in themselves, get to see their own reflection. I get to observe and watch the show. A trifle bit detached, eh? Now where did you suppose I learned THAT from? RT saying, have more fun per hour! All of You ARE marvelous. PS: Please, NO Bolie-Shreiking tonite. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 16:28:14 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: rt Subject: Happy Hallo'ween: idea to wear Message: Well, I won't be Bholie shreiking or tricking tonight but do expect fifty or sixty munchkins at the door. We have a huge Jack-o-Lantern (the Scream) and the Bat-Cat as the main features this year. Sparkie, our grey hairless, has sprouted a fine pair of bat wings (courtesy of Patty) to scare all the little goblins this year. Patty has her black clothes (sans mirror) and black cat pin and black widow spider earrings to help set the scene. And Phil Glass's symphony on the CD to complete it. Fun! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 18:30:09 (EST)
From: seymour Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Happy Hallo'ween Message: Happy Halloween everyone, We have just had a jolly nice halloween party which was not too scary but a lot of fun. One year a really spooky thing happened. Some stanger came to the door and said that he knew all about our lives and if we did not follow his advice we would end up eternaly damned, lost souls in a world of illusion. What could we do but take his advice for, as he said, if we did not we would become like the cast of 'THE THING' and be transformed into rotting vegetables. We had no choice and were led out into the dark and misty night never to be seen again by our nearest and dearest. At least not as we once were. We did re-appear looking and sounding as we once were but we had become zombies hunting for brains to eat. Luckily we eventually escaped and re-joined the human race and now enjoy the support of other ex-zombies in rebuilding a lost life. It gives you the heebeejeebess Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 18:35:25 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: seymour Subject: Happy Hallo'ween Message: Oooooooooooooooh, tell another spooky story Uncle Seymour!!! That was a good one! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 18:44:47 (EST)
From: seymour Email: None To: Helen Subject: Happy Hallo'ween Message: Yes it still frightens me. There are not many more spooky stories than that - except maybe the Exorcist. I hope the nightmares are not too horrific Seymour Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 18:41:08 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: rt Subject: RT and the Moon Message: Dear RT - That's one of the best ideas for a Halloween costume that I've ever heard. I love to wear black clothes from head to toe, and now I've got a good excuse to do so every Halloween. Thanks! No Bolie Shrikking here in the Show Me state tonite. At least not while I'm around! Love, Katie P.S. to Gerry - how long did you keep those bat wings on the hairless kitty? Kira, our black kitten, says she prefers to go as herself... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 18:50:26 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: RT and the Moon Message: Hi Katie, Spookie Sparkie has been wearing his wings all day. Slept in them for the last couple of hours. They are attached (temporary stitching) to his harness, which he doesn't mind wearing and seems to not notice the wings, either. Of course, he's used to wearing a rather stylish pink ''jacket'' on chilly days before the stove warms things up. The kids haven't arrived yet. I'm sampling the wares and just finished carving the pumpkin. Patty says it looks like an ex-con... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 12:49:34 (EST)
From: RT Email: yah ha hah To: Katie Subject: RT and the Moon Phase 2 Message: Hi Kay -tee MOONING: The costume is completed with a cresent shaped MOON mask, black w/ sparlers on it...eye & mouth holes. HOWEVER last nite 3 people did not KNOW what I was....even after I put the mirror in their face...duh...I guess my clothes were too conventional...black jeans, shirt & sweater...I took fotos of best awards and was impressed to see a guy in a 6 foot square cardboard flat...painted black...like asphalt.yellow striped...little stffed animals glued on ...bloody...he turns around and the black backside is spray painted: ROAD KILL. An art student. At least he was not a calculus major, you know you are not supposed to DRINK and DERIVE. RT :) PS: Whilst dancing, the mirror broke off...broken! See what happens when you are not properly focussed on Holy Name? :( Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 16:37:43 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: RT Subject: RT and the Moon Phase 2 Message: Whilst dancing, the mirror broke off...broken! See what happens when you are not properly focussed on Holy Name? :( I'm sorry, RT! However, I have it on good authority that if you break a mirror while dancing wildly on Halloween that you get seven years good luck! :) (Especially if you are NOT properly focused on Holy Name.) Take care, KT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 18:43:39 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Helen Subject: Happy Hallo'ween Message: Happy Halloween Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 18:57:00 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Bobby Subject: Happy Hallo'ween Message: COOOOL!! I printed it out! Thanks, Bobby! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 12:41:49 (EST)
From: RT Email: yaaaaaah To: Bobby Subject: Happy Hallo'ween Message: Dear Bobby, I was scared to see your web page...very cool greetings! Nice boo-ha-ha. RT- who noticed that the center card could have said: 'Good Witches for Halloween'! Deduct 3 shrieks for a missed pun... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 08:14:19 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: All interested in science-off Message: Good morning again! :) I can't remember the last time I started a thread, except the one below this one! I just wanted to let all you science types know that I feel like I have used your approach to dealing with something. I heard about this '4 Your Blood Type Diet' from a friend I hadn't seen in years. We ran into each other on the track and she told me about this diet she was on that listed foods you should eat by your blood type, not the RH factor. I am a diabetic and this woman told me that it is supposed to be very good for diabetics. I would have just asked my doctor but I live in country bumpkinville and although she is a nice lady, I don't think she knows all that much about diet, what is new or changing so I looked on the Internet. First I found an article against the book. It said the research wasn't scientific but I was dissapointed it was so vauge. Then I found another site about the book that was supposed to be a positive review but I thought it worse then the first. It said that type 'O' people are desendence of hunters so they can eat red meat. Type 'A' people are desendence of farmers and so should be veggitarians. You get the picture. ABSURD,I thought! It would seem that people with mixed blood types have been co-existing for ions. And farmers have livestock used for meat and milk which as dairy is also excluded at least from the 'A' type, that is mine and I was just glancing at that part of the bood. So even though I have had and hope to continue having experiences in my life that are out of the realm of science I think being exposed to you all, science enthusiasts(sp), has helped me to be more catious and to not just get sucked in without some thought. Thanks, Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 08:43:52 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Robyn Subject: You go, girl Message: . I have some friends who lost a lot of weight on that diet but the foods they had to eat were very restrictive, like eating a whole can of tuna fish, no mayonaisse allowed. To me this is not very appetizing, I'd rather walk a little farther on the treadmill than give up eating a variety of foods. This website has influenced me, also, in the 'scientific' sense The other day A friend at work was talking about fate and destiny (when it comes to love) and I said it may be part fate but you also gotta use your BRAIN & COMMON SENSE when picking a mate. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 10:47:20 (EST)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Robyn Subject: All interested in science-off Message: The reason why I stopped being a strict vegetarian was because during the eighties after leaving the cult, I realised that we had evolved as hunter gatherers and had a natural ability to be omniverous. If you look at it, we've only been 'civilised' for a reletively short time, the estimates being from four to twelve thousand years. (There appears to have been a lost civilisation that stretched back to around 10,000 BC). Since we spent several million years as hunter gatherers, our diet and behavour still reflect this. Agiculture is too recent to have any effect on us evolution wise. I like science Robyn but it hasn't answered all questions yet and I remain a believer in God and life after death etc. mainly because there is some evidence that they exist. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 13:20:54 (EST)
From: Laura Email: None To: Sir D Subject: To Sir D- Message: Hi David, I think about you a lot, mainly because I haven't written back to you yet. I find your ME dis-ease amazing in the way it interacts with K. Does the mind find a way to make you hurt because it will do anything to remain alive and to keep you from realizing K? Remember the days when we believed in crazy mind? Is brain chemistry change a good thing? You think it's a bad thing but I thought that was what K would do, change us by whatever means possible so that we would wake up to who we really were, etc. etc. You write, 'I think I remain a believer in God and life after death etc. mainly because there is some evidence that they exist.' I think I like your posts because you write from this fundamental belief. What is your experience that God exists and that there is life after death? 'Some evidence' doesn't really cut it anymore David. I want the same things now that I did 25 years ago, I want the experience. Only now I want it really really big, not little lights and crickets. I settled for that. Now I want blazing evidence. Do you have any? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 15:13:14 (EST)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Laura Subject: To Sir D- Message: Well Laura, I haven't time to write much now so I'll write later. But ME really is a disease of the brain and nervous system which is a kind of virus. It causes inflammation of the brain and makes it super senitive/allergic to all kinds of things. It is a definite physical thing which can be detected physically. Meditation affects the brain and nervous system in a physical way. You know, changes brainwaves and brain chemistry and all that. My understanding is that meditation is actually more physical than we give it credit for. Physical changes occur in the brain and body which are new to us and are easily passed off as something 'spiritual'. Because I'm so aware of any change in my brain chemistry now, I can see that practising a meditation technique has a physical effect on the brain. That's what I believe it's been having all along. Nothing wrong with that. Regarding the philosophy about a thing called 'mind' keeping people away from 'knowledge' well I think such a philosophy is insanity and a throwback to belief in such things as the Devil and the Bogeyman. If you don't meditate it's because you don't want to or don't feel like it. It's as simple as that. I mean, would you say your crazy mind kept you away from going swimming or going for a walk? Of course not and Maharaji's destructive and very stupid philosophy is a million miles away from reality and look how much it failed! Nobody listened to him in the end, save a few. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 19:01:57 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Sir D Subject: To Sir D- Message: Dear David, Laura and all, Yes, I thought the same when I read Laura's post. Now that we aren't trying to fit into the group as far as K goes we can do what we want. It certainly is a relaxation technique and I guess I think of it as I have from when I first heard about it, it is, I believe an ability that any person has if shown the techniques. That ability may or may not be a spiritual thing but it is a part of the human existance that is often over looked and that I personally have benifited from. Also you can do what techniques you feel like and neglect the ones that don't work for you and for any amount of time you desire. That's the good news. Love, Robyn PS. Hellen, mentioning Grumpy Old Men the other day got me 'in the mood' I have it in the VCR right now! :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 15:40:50 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Good Job, Robyn Message: Robyn: Yeah, I know I'm a science type.... What you did makes good, common sense. ANYONE can write a book on diet and get it published, but do they know what they are talking about? It makes alot of sense to check out the FACTS before diving into a diet, ANY diet. As a case in point: A book called, 'You are all sampacu' (or something like that) came out in the late 60's or early 70's. It advocated a rice-only diet.... It killed some people. The writer wasn't an M.D. nor a licensed dietician or anything. I find diet books, in particular, to be some of the most outlandish clap-trap that has ever been published. You did a good thing for yourself by trying to check it out first! I do have another question, though it may be politically incorrect: WHO SAYS that being a vegetarian is 'more civilized?' This question is in reference to another post, but this subject really gets me wrapped around the axle. It's pure nonsense. It may not be as healthy to eat as much meat as we do, but I don't equate vegetarianism with 'civility.' An omnivore is an omnivore. It has nothing to do with 'being civilized.' That stuff about,' You are what you eat' is just a bunch of eastern hocus-pocus... The same stuff that drives the M-cult, in my opinion. Anyway, there... I've said it. he he he.... :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 16:55:02 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Mike Subject: Good Job, Robyn (off topic) Message: Hi Mike and Robyn - I read that blood type diet book in the store and thought it was really silly. For one thing, I am type AB, which is a mutation that happened several thousand (?) years ago. Only about 5% of people are type AB. Thus blood type theories never 'fit' me, so it's pretty easy for me to debunk them quickly. Mike, I was also reminded of macrobiotic diets ('You are all sanpaku' was a macrobiotic diet book) when I read Robyn's posts. I have had friends who ate macrobiotic diets - although not brown rice exclusively! - and done very well on them. But the reasoning in the books (which I HAVE read) is a weird sort of pseudo-science. Sometimes it actually makes sense nutritionally, but the books authors don't explain it nutritionally. What I particularly dislike is books that say that THIS DIET is the diet for EVERYONE. That really bothers me. I am a vegetarian because I don't like the way chicken, beef, pork, other meats, and eggs are usually produced today - I think it's inhumane. But that does not make me more civilized or higher on the evolutionary scale or whatever. Anyway, end of rant. (BTW, I do *not* want to get into an argument about vegetarianism - just thought I'd let y'all know. You can go to alt.vegetarian if you want to do that!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 19:13:52 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Katie Subject: Good Job, Robyn (off topic) Message: Dear Katie and Mike, I am 50 or 60% vegitarian. See we can do what ever we want, eat meat or not or both! I agree with Katie that the way meat is produced is inhumane and I think unhealthy but every now and then I want to have meat and I do. I also have venison given to me almost every year and that is good and have friends who raise cows etc for meat in a humane and healthy way. I am getting into, even more, vegitarian foods now that I have a bit more time and do think I feel better on that type of diet. I don't think it has to do with my blood type though! Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 16:24:48 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Katie & Robyn Subject: Can o' worms Message: Robyn & Katie: Yeah, I didn't really want to debate the subject either. I have my own feelings about 'killing' ANYTHING for food. Plant or animal, it's killing nonetheless. I agree that cattle in some places aren't raised in a humane way. That CAN be fixed and is a little better out here because they are all free-ranging as opposed to pen raising. Anyway, good on ya both for investigating prior to doing.... ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 07:57:15 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: when you learn K from books or Message: Good morning everyone, I have just been wondering about something. Premies say that an experience with K is only by the grace. There are always ex's to inform that these techniques are available in many places, different gurus and books. OK, from different guru's would be something because BM makes it all seem like he is at the center of K and the premie's life. But more telling would be someone who learned from a book and had an experience. I DO NOT associate my experiences from K to BM at all and only slightly if at all while I was a premie. I thought that a mahatma was showing me something that every human being could experience. I do know I have read posts here about more than one person who had K experiences as children before ever knowing anything about K. I think it was Sir David and Eb. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 08:45:35 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Joy may know the book(s) Message: Good morning, Robyn and HAPPY HALLOWEEN (I know how much you LOVE this holiday-snicker!) I saw light as a kid all the time while trying to go to sleep. I've practised the techniques after reading them here with success in meditation. I like Sir David's ideas about meditation and recommend them for anyone who wants to meditate for relaxation. There is too much pressure with knowledge (do it a certain length of time per day, do it every day, devote, devote, devote) to relax. Anyway, Maharaji and his programming trip are what Knowledge is all about. Knowledge is the worm on the hook that is Maharaji's cult. I think Joy knows the book(s) that contain the techniques. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 12:22:53 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: VP Subject: I agree Message: I agree, Veep. Meditating can be very self-nurturing. If it ceases to be that than it's just another burden and I think the human condition is burden enough. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 11:17:21 (EST)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Robyn Subject: when you learn K from books or Message: Robyn; VP said that he used to see light when he was a boy. When I was a teenager I used to get unexplicable experiences of peace and great happiness. This was nothing to do with any breath meditation and was some years before I got K techniques. I remember the first time, walking through Coventry City centre on a Saturday morning and suddenly being totally blown out by a feeling of great love and everythingwasjustsorightness. Hard to put into words. But it was a feeling of great hapiness for no apparent reason and everything and everybody looked utterly beautiful and I felt totally at peace. This was before my drug taking year and the whole experience took me by surprise and showed me a different perspective I'd never imagined existed. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 13:28:46 (EST)
From: Laura Email: None To: Sir D Subject: when you learn K from books or Message: Isn't the 'feeling of great love and everythingwasjustsorightness' what we expected when we received K? To have the key to maintain that heightened sense of true awareness of peace,love,etc. all the time, isn't that what we thought we were receiving? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 14:04:31 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Laura Subject: when you learn K from books or Message: Yes, and it set up our expectations very badly for real life. I used to go to al-anon a lot and they talk about 'accepting life on life's terms' which helped me a lot. It's IMPOSSIBLE to be at that wonderful state of awareness all the time. It doesn't mean there are not wonderful moments in life, but we simply are not going to be at that place all the time. That was & is a BIG LIE. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 17:48:51 (EST)
From: Laura Email: None To: Helen Subject: when you learn K from books or Message: How do we know that being in the 'wonderful state of awareness' all the time is a big lie? Aren't there some people who have claimed to be there, not that I know them personally: Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, etc. Isn't that what they were proclaiming? If we can be in that wonderful state sometimes then why not all the time? I am really greedy. If there was ever a saint, that person was greedy too. You have to be greedy, to want it ALL, to ever approach K or be a Moonie or Hari Krishna type person. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 18:00:45 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Laura Subject: Being alive is good enough Message: I don't equate God with being happy all the time anymore. Happiness, self-esteem, come from just living a good life and doing my best. Belief in God has helped me to be a stronger person, but life is still, by definition, difficult at times. There are good days and bad days--this is part of being human. I'm not looking for bliss as a way of life or a goal of life anymore. I think that belief (that there is some magic blissful realization) out 'there' somewhere just makes people even more miserable. I get a lot of very real happiness from a brisk walk with a good freind looking at the gorgeous autumn leaves (: Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 21:46:52 (EST)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Laura Subject: You can't force love Message: And that's what we want, isn't it. Maharaji's trip in the seventies was an attempt to force a feeling. He pretended to be God incarnate and got all these sincere people to believe he was the Lord and sacrifice their lives to him. Now if he HAD been the Lord, it would have been incredible. But he's just a small family business and he doesn't care about his premies, only the returns in Dollars. So I guess we have to start again and go back to the drawing board and forget and discount anything he said as being meaningless tripe. Of no help to man nor beast. Ha, it's almost a joke! The man who was God, for a few years anyway. But you can't force anything, that's one thing I've learned. And certainly, you cannot force love. You are free to do anything you like and not bound by the teachings of a false god. If you want to meditate, you can do so as much as you want to and how you want to. And if you don't want to meditate, you don't have to and there's no need to feel guilty about it either. OK, perhaps I am a bit eccentric, you know, eccentric Englishman and all that, but there's one thing I practise which has a profound effect on me. I'll tell you what it is if you want. WHere is God. He is everywhere. Well I wrote down the word 'God' on a piece of paper and did pranam to it. No gurus, no religion, no philosophy and no knowledge. Just a piece of paper out of a notebook with 'God' written on it. And when I did pranam to it I rested the burden at the feet of He who knows us all inside out. Not a pretend God but the real thing. And He is still there. He never went away. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 21:53:37 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Sir D Subject: Sir D, you are the best Message: I agree with you 100%. We do not need Gurus to find God. God (in my opinion) was always and will always be here. God never left us. I guess I'm a little eccentric too. Sir David I think you're terrific. I hope you don't think I'm stalking you, b/c I've told you that before. I just find a lot of inspiration in your posts.. Sounds like you have had a lot of health problems. I hope you're OK. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 06:55:32 (EST)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Helen Subject: Glad you're here, Helen Message: Glad you've found my posts helpful. I certainly don't mind you replying to my posts and saying how you feel etc. That's what this forum is for. So express away whenever you want. It's good to have someone replying to my posts without reservation. This forum is meant to be this sort of place but if there's something you'd like to say via email, then email me if you want. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 18:48:19 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Sir D Subject: Thank you, Sir D (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 14:25:30 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Robyn Subject: when you learn K from books or Message: Robyn, I know this thread is old and about to go under, but I wanted to mention something to you. When I first found the forum, I remember some discussion about whether or not the techniques should be revealed on the website...can you imagine? Some people were still saying that even though M was a fraud, they had reservations about revealing K here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 02:15:31 (EST)
From: someone Email: None To: Everyone Subject: post not appearing Message: not wanting to waste his time writing responses if they are are being censored from what keeps maintaining its a free speech forum. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 03:07:54 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: someone Subject: post not appearing Message: Which browser are you using? How long was your post? More than 10,000 char? The problem is very likely coming from this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 07:46:26 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: someone Subject: post not appearing Message: I had trouble last week with two of my posts not showing up. The others did. I'm sure the posts weren't censored. You are being paranoid. Chalk it up to technical difficulties. You obviously got one through, eh? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 08:49:49 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: VP Subject: posts NOT appearing?? Message: I had trouble last week with two of my posts not showing up. AaaKKK! Vic finds another 'feature'! I'm sure the posts weren't censored. You are being paranoid. I don't know anything about posts not showing up. I just work here. But I don't have time to censor 'someone' before his/her posts even GET here! Life is too short for cults and paranoia, someone. If you're interested in censorship, check out EmployingLies.Org on the pro-cult channel. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 09:08:51 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Brian Subject: posts NOT appearing?? Message: It wasn't a big deal because the posts weren't very good, anyway! One was about the people who watch the forum for Elan Vital and read. I tried to post it four times, but it never posted. I can't remember what the other ones were about. I turned off the computer and left. When I got on the forum later that day, I didn't have any problems posting. I HAVE been having some computer problems, so I chalked it up to my machine. Of course the moon could have been in the seventh house or something-just kidding. Wish I knew more about computers so I could help you figure it out if it is indeed a 'feature'-:( You do a great job, Brian. I know you don't censor. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 23:43:36 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Everyone Subject: MJ's slaves are fund-raising Message: again. I heard that Anne Johnston was in Toronto. I am not sure if she was there to raise funds. Definitely, the troups are out on the roads of North America trying to raise cash. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 06:56:02 (EST)
From: Rev John Hammond-Smyth Email: Vicatage@toytown.com To: Gail Subject: MJ's slaves are fund-raising Message: That's good news Gail. Those ethnic Albanian refugees need all the help they can get, not to mention the vagrant children on the streets in Brazil, of course. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 16:27:35 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Everyone Subject: For those who appreciate... Message: ...gag-o-rama! Hola ex-premie groovers! Long time no tete a tete! Been away for a while, seemed like 6 months. Had a ball everywhere I went, and fortunately met some of you in person which was divine (in the earthly campy sense of the word - not the spiritual!!). My trip was incredible for me on a number of levels. It was the first holiday I’d had since defecting from Mahadickhead, and by meeting up and chatting with friends and just being in a number of different cultural settings, it was really refreshing to get some perspective on this whole trip. Later I’ll fill you in on some trip observations/adventures I had which are relevant. Firstly though I have just caught up on the new premie site, which I saw Brucie say over on the premie forum, that Maharaji told them all at Amaroo to check it out. Why the about face on the internet Maharaji? If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em, eh? You are such a hypocritical fraud. Still I’m sure the premies accepted your new reasoning just as they always have done, cause after all, you’re the LOTU and can change your stance on what you like, when you like, can’t you? That site is just begging for us to take the piss, and I’m sure you lot have done that over the last few weeks. I can’t even begin to catch up on everything that’s been written, so forgive me if I repeat any topic/joke etc. What about that first page byline... ‘For those who appreciate the teachings of Maharaji'. More like: For those who appreciate... - self-deception - exploitation - brainwashing - credit card debits - dysfunctional relationships - using the word ‘beautiful’ a lot - rewriting history - drifting in and out of poverty - getting headaches - having mental backlashes - listening to nauseating songs - pedantic premie politics - womanising hammer-tossing mahatmas - the regurgitated teachings of Kabir - pathetic misleading parables - kissing pudgy Indian feet - irritating non-premies - buying overly priced tacky EV merchandise Honestly that website is a total cyberversion of those heavily edited fluffy videos that contributed to me getting sucked into the cult in the first place. Still trying to flog the punters a world that’s only ever 100% nice and blissful ALL of the time - but no money-back guarantee! What a scam! Although, fortunately in cyberland, this website is next door showing the 'real documentary' as opposed to their 'Hollywood' version - thank god, that's different! This last week I received an e-mail from a college student doing her paper on cults (you guys probably got one as well) asking me questions about getting into a cult etc. Anyway, in one of my explanations I was telling her that one of the reasons I got in to M was because this idealistic part of me believed in achieving that unhuman and ultimately unobtainable 100% bliss. I told her that no premie, when trying to convert you, will ever tell you anything bad about M or K, or any of the cult’s past - the Krishna dancing etc, the Lord of the Universe songs. I told her to go to the premie website, watch it for a while, and see if any of the premies EVER say anything bad about M, or themselves. Will they ever say “All the premie relationships I knew broke up” or “Gee I realised I neglected my child over the years” or “Once, I slaved painting a house for M in the sun for 18 hours a day for 6 weeks”, or “I used to love singing that song Lord of the Universe to him before dropping to the ground as he walked by” or “I saw him dance bare-breasted wearing a Krishna Crown” or “I kissed his feet 25 times” or “M was absolutely steaming drunk and stumbled back to his car at Amaroo” Oh no. We won’t hear those tales, only the ‘beautiful’ stories about their lives and their meditational trip. You know I am so tempted to ‘out’ this one guy's life I know over there who has written a piece. By his story, you’d think everything was so fucking hunky dory in his life and has always been. And yet this guy’s had the typical totally dysfunctional premie life. What’s particularly funny is this guy is one of the most socially inept people I’ve ever met! He probably thinks he’s got more chance of flogging K to people here than in person that’s for sure! Anyway, here endeth the morning rant! Cop-u-lator, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 17:13:21 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: TD Subject: Welcome back, TD Message: TD: It's been an interesting few weeks, that's for sure. I wouldn't even know where to start.... But welcome back, I missed ya! :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 17:55:26 (EST)
From: x Email: None To: Mike Subject: Welcome back, TD Message: Hi TD, Glad to hear you had a nice vacation and got to visit a lot of friends. You're correct in guessing that enjoyinglife.com has been fueling alot of derision and ridicule here in the last few weeks. Nearly every empty, vapid entry on the 'expressions' page, has been dismantled and examined. You can only imagine the scorching that took place. I don't think they realized how entertaining they're insipid little stories would be, to rational people, like the ones found here. Take Care, x Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 23:00:55 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: TD Subject: Welcome, TD Message: Just a short message: thanks again for the sarong, although I haven't gotten a chance to wear it (and thereby entrap unwary premie males) yet. Also, Shri Webmaster Brian was quite rude about my wearing of said sarong, but whaddya expect? Sheesh! Glad you're back! Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 22:27:57 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Katie Subject: Welcome, TD Message: Also, Shri Webmaster Brian was quite rude about my wearing of said sarong, but whaddya expect? Now this is just a bare-breasted lie!! I was the only one who applauded you for wearing the thing correctly, remember? [snicker] Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 02:34:05 (EST)
From: bb Email: None To: TD Subject: For those who appreciate... Message: Hi TD, I outed one poor revisionist over there who gave up her infant child to adoption because the lard of the universe was so against parenthood. You remember that era? I saw her walking around rawats house with the child in her arms just before she gave it away. By all means, feel free to tell the truth about your friend. It was not easy, but getting deprogrammed by the truth about 'our lord' is worth any personal slap in the face to wake up. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 10:28:34 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: bb Subject: Giving up babies for the Lard Message: What a horrible story. I'll bet she had repressed that painful memory (or had tried to 'transcend' it). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 16:02:09 (EST)
From: RT Email: mmm To: TD Subject: I appreciate... Message: Nice TD, TD! Your list is going into the timeless new classic, '99 reasons We Left the Room..to Doubt Maharaji' ...suitable for framing the Master and emailing. RT :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 18:00:40 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: TD Subject: For those who appreciate... Message: Good to hear from you again, TD. Welcome back. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 at 18:59:42 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Thanks for the welcome back... Message: ...everybody! Much appreciated. I'm glad you've all picked the premie site and its contents to bits. I wonder if they know, by their sheer premie-speak, how much ammo they've given to us to shoot 'em down with. Katie, Brian's just jealous as I know he secretly wanted the sarong as a cover for his computer - not that it gets much dust as he's the webmaster and all...I'll have to scrounge around and find him another attractive EV item - there's such an extensive range to choose from! Mind you, it might mean I have to actually go back to a big event, but with such quality attractive signature merchandise and those competitive prices, how can I resist? love, TD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 03:46:39 (EST)
From: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: TD Subject: For those who appreciate... Message: Nice post. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |