Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 28 | |
From: Oct 30, 1998 |
To: Nov 18, 1998 |
Page: 3 Of: 5 |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 22:09:35 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Secrets of Psychic Powers Message: The show the Secrets of Psychic Powers is on The Learning Channel right now, for those of you in America with cable TV. An expose of psychic powers. I thought it might appeal to some of you guys. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 08:21:57 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: VP Subject: A parallel to Maharaji Message: Well, I fell asleep during the show. One little gem of opinion mentioned during the show was that well educated, intellectuals were more gullible to psychic tricks because of the sequencing of their logical thought processes. (I don't know if I believe that statement, but if it is true, maybe that is why so many intelligent people are taken in by Maharaji.) The show told the story of a poor peasant woman who was conducting seances during Victorian times. The leading psychological scientists of the time thought 'How could a poor uneducated peasant woman fool US? We are so educated and could sniff out a fake.' So they thought some of the more well known psychics were real. The seances at this time were really fake. The medium went into another room then came back dressed as a ghost-ha ha. Sometimes they rang bells. Some psychics had assistants throw melons into the room during the seance. Even thought it was so fake, and everyone knew that the ghost was really the psychic, if you exposed the medium during a seance it was bad manners. The other participants would scold you (sound familiar?) Harry Houdini helped the scientific community expose psychics as frauds. He could figure out how they did their tricks during seances. All of the psychics from this era were exposed as frauds either by someone else or by their own confession. I thought it was interesting to note that even though they were exposed, it did not diminish their success or popularity. People heard and saw what they wanted to. Does this sound familiar??? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 11:45:22 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: VP Subject: My latest hobby horse... Message: Well, I fell asleep during the show. See! it gotcha! TV is an excellent trance devise. One little gem of opinion mentioned during the show was that well educated, intellectuals were more gullible to psychic tricks because of the sequencing of their logical thought processes. (I don't know if I believe that statement, but if it is true, maybe that is why so many intelligent people are taken in by Maharaji.) Possibly, but I think trance theory is a simpler and more elegant explanation. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 12, 1998 at 13:45:07 (EST)
From: Uli Email: borisuli@telecomat To: VP Subject: Astonished Message: Hi, just wanted to inform you guys....that I have been in with the Sat Guru M in Nigeria some years ago..... but I'm back to normal and its now that i see what all this rubbish really did.....my god, its really worldwide! Well, I'm out and I just wanted to state, that its good to see, that there were others falling for the same kind of s.... Bye Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 21:40:38 (EST)
From: RT Email: no, but if you hum a few bars... To: Everyone esp, Lord JIM Subject: Sat Song: True: Much of Nothin Message: Sat song dedicated to the (Read Only) Memory of Jim Heller, late 20th Century HTML Generator, Operator and Creator of www.Ex-Premie.Org. Thank You, Lord Jim! Because of You, We are so pissed! And we’re out of the cult! ___________________________________________________________ Read this to the tune of ‘Too Much of Nothing From the Album (Fathering) by The Fairport Convention, 1970’s folk rock; features the amazing voice of Sandy Denny, (R.I.P.) ________________________________________________________ TRUE: MUCH OF NOTHING Well - true, much of Nothing Say goodbye to Instructor-Ji No more trips, Ma-ha-ha-ji, +++ |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 12:53:42 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: RT Subject: Sat Song: True: Much of Nothin Message: Dear RT, Thanks, it's been to long since I saw one of your 'works'. Brilliant as usual! Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 17:47:12 (EST)
From: larkin Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: RT Subject: Sat Song: True: Much of Nothin Message: The inspiration is flowing indeed, RT! Thanks for that little gem. Minor correction: 'Too Much of Nothing' is on the Fotheringay album - Sandy's band with Trevor Lucas (RIP) when she quit Fairport. It was written by Dylan, I think. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 21:02:13 (EST)
From: RT Email: mmmmmmm To: larkin Subject: Firesign Theater: new CD!!! Message: Thanks, Larkin. I had only a tape -copied- and no album to reference. I expect you know the song. And now, a little tip: the Firesign Theater's first recording in 15 years is out, called: 'Give me Immortatily or give me death' - skits take place in an LA radio show on Dec 31, 1999...very funny refs to Y2K and other cultural issues...key to it all is Princess Di, who appears as a virtual reality digital icon. Worth hearing. RT who liked your poem, it's printed and in the 'Mystics' section of my EX-premie norebook. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 10:42:53 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: RT Subject: Firesign Theater: new CD!!! Message: Dear RT, Thanks for that tip dear. I LOVE Firesign Theater! I don't know if you will remember the line, 'Your no fun, you fell right over.', said by the little dwarves or elves that the guy in the climate control van picks up. (Antelope Freeway, 1/2 mile...etc)They have the guy, don't know his name, I don't think it is Nick Danger, anyway they make him stand on his head and he falls over. I use to say that to my girls when they were learning to walk. Not mean in a Mommy Dearest sort of way but to myself. :) Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 20:50:01 (EST)
From: Boris Email: montreal.quebec@usa.net To: Everyone Subject: Information is the only weapon Message: Let's get it straight: the guy is a crook. So what? He'll keep abusing people as long as we let him. Stealing from people who think they are giving is still stealing because he is not what he pretends to be. This is legal because laws protects the religious rights in most civilized countries (I know there are exceptions. That's why I said 'civilized'). Therefore, the only thing left to attack the dude is to attack his reputation. He knows. That's why he's so secretive about his lifestyle. If we could show the king is naked, he'll stop making a mess of people's life. Now he's got skeletons in his closet. That's for sure. How come no journalist, broadcaster or papparazi ever made a story about him? I am pledging a 10$ bounty to anyone who'd come-up with publishable material. It may not sound like much, but I challenge everyone do the same? Would the webmaster please help us with this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 22:08:44 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Boris Subject: Ten Bucks??? Message: Hey Boris, that's going to really excite the League of Freelance Investigative Journalists. You sure you want to extend yourself like that? I can see it now, 60 Minutes finally does a major expose on Maharaji and looks to Boris from the ex site for a little financial back-up. 'Boris? There's no Boris around here. Brian, you know any Boris here?' 'Boris? No...wait, there was that guy who posted once a few months ago. Wasn't his name Boris? Something about subsidizing some muckraking?' 'I don't know, Brian, but I think that may be the guy. It seems 60 Minutes has gone ahead and done this piece or something and now they're looking for a little support or something. Look, you want to talk with the guy?' 'Shit! I don't want to talk with no one. Boris? What the fuck is this?' 'Brian, this guy frm 60 Minutes is making it sound like we owe him a fair bit of money.' 'Tell him I'm not here. Boris? Shit...' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 16:45:00 (EST)
From: Boris Email: montreal.quebec.usa.net To: Jim Subject: Ten Bucks??? Message: Ain't enough? Do the same and I'll double it. I know this will amount to results at the end. If you don'tat least, please avoid throwing shit into the fan will you? Calm down now Jim. We all know you've got this great vocabulary. Your eyelids are heavy. You feel an irresistible want to pick-up your guitar and sing (once again) 'My lord' to the tune of 'My girl'. Hush, Jimmy boy. Boris Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 21:08:12 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Boris Subject: Ten Bucks??? Message: Hey Boris, I'm with you all the way. But first, how about another hint? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 12:39:54 (EST)
From: Boris Email: montreal.quebec@usa.net To: Jim Subject: And now, for a hint Message: I live in Montréal (got the accent on the E? That was your hint. I spoke French before I spoke English you, slow-puck.) Now, I'd like you to keep my true identity to yourself. I may collect ennemies on the devotees team in the near future. I intend to speak-up where silence is requested and one never knows how far fanatism will go. You understand this much, don't you? I know you do. You came out of hypnosis. I had some contact with Ozzy awile ago. He lives around where you live I recall. He seem to still be with Sue. They got 3 kids. Gabe must be 24 or so now and still was in university. Happy Hannuka, you sex-maniac. Stay in your mind. That's where you belong. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 15:24:56 (EST)
From: Jim Email: heller@bc1.com To: Boris Subject: Hmmmmmmm..... Message: How can I guess in silence? Is that your real email, mon frere (ou ma cherie)? I thought Oz and Sue were toto finito years ago. You know, I did stay in touch with Sue back in the eighties. She visited me with a bunch of other premies once or twice. Then I saw her in Calgary during the 88 Olympics. Lost contact since then. But you... who the hell are you? And how would you know I was ... Email me. I'm sure between you and me we can probably figure out who you are if we work at it a bit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 06:09:41 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Boris Subject: Information is the only weapon Message: How come no journalist, broadcaster or papparazi ever made a story about him? This is something I have asked myself a lot. I remember in the mid 80's here in Oz, 60 minutes, which has the highest ratings for a current affair program, did an expose on the Rajneesh, with that weird Indian right-hand woman (who I now believe lives in Switzerland) who was extremely defiant and arrogant when the journalist asked her about all the millions the cult had raked in and to all the cult members whose lives were ruined by blindly giving their lives over to him. Her famous response, which will go down in journalistic history here, was 'Tough titties'. Charming, eh? Can't imagine Charanand saying the same thing. How did the Short M escape the same treatment? Methinks it was because as opposed to someone like the Rajneesh who let other power-hungry cult-members dominate, who fucked up publicly big time, the Short M has kept himself in the 'pilot' position the whole way (forgive the pun) and had enough 'foresight' (??) to scrap the ashrams and the obvious cult-like behaviour in favour of Knowledge-lite and the whole rewritten image/history. I think our ex-guru had more street-savvy then the Rajneesh, which makes him that much more insidious. What I did not know previously, and what I do know now, is that there HAS BEEN a documentary made called LOTU (yet to see it) which should certainly be re-issued and seen by the media in the countries that never had access to it before. That might put a bit of a dampner on his tarnish-free reputation! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 11:39:56 (EST)
From: david m Email: None To: TD Subject: Information is the only weapon Message: Hey TD.... as i told Katie below I just watched the LOTU..video last night..you wouldnt believe how cult like all of the premies looked..Its a part that i never really saw being caught right in the middle of the trip...now i know why the big M changed from DLM..to whatever it is..But rather than prempal being sly as a fox i think its the people arround him the reall higher ups..there must be something in this for them as well...what do you think......reading the Mishler interview it sound like in the early days he always counted on somebody to do everything and thats probably the way the trip contunues today as long as the money is rolling in so what...david. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 09:14:09 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: TD Subject: The press isn't interested Message: How come no journalist, broadcaster or papparazi ever made a story about him? My theory is that no-one (with the exception of premies and ex-premies) is interested in the guy. Mainstream culture doesn't know this guy exists. In addition, (at least in the US) there is no money to be made off of him. He just isn't mainstream or bizarre enough to generate interest. He is a big zero to the press. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 13:55:19 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: VP Subject: Agree with VP Message: Except in very local areas, such as around Amaroo, etc. when there's an event. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 15:24:04 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Katie Subject: Agree with VP Message: Yeah, they are the times I meant - when there's an event on like Amaroo. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 13:21:56 (EST)
From: Richard Email: rich2@globalnet.co.uk To: Boris Subject: It's all in the Numbers... Message: How come no journalist, broadcaster or papparazi ever made a story about him? Because there's no percentage Boris, no market. When tragic but invisible things happen to only a (relatively) small group of people, it's just not news. Who cares if thousands of people feel bad, give up on life or screw up their relationships. We didn't leave the Mish with a bang, only a whimper, we just drifted away and that's how it is for most ex-premies. Who the fuck wishes to broadcast that they believed the little shit. That's the real damage my friend. Like with rape, the victim is not simply assaulted, they are humiliated and (until recently) society has no wish or will to help, until it happens to them. I have tried to introduce the idea that Maharaji has been less than honest with several old friends who are still participating in the charade. The reaction is always the same, I stop hearing from them. Good luck with the bounty. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 17:13:03 (EST)
From: Boris Email: montreal.quebec@usa.net To: Richard Subject: Wait. Don't go just yet. Message: Wait. Don't go just yet. I want to talk to you some more. Say you're right. Say no one cares. The guy remains discretly on the fringe and like any mainstream bible-stumping-holy-roller, he's got a god-given right to raise cash and betray sincere folks. There's nothing to do about it. Right? Wrong. Say we - or just I if no one else cares - gather information about the guy and pass it on to media. Say we do it every week for a year. Say nothing happen and I keep doing it for another year. Then something starts to happen. Would this all be worthwhile. It certainly would be slightly better than plain nagging about it between ourselves. Now, this is what I propose: Let's gather news-worthy facts about him and feed it to news organizations though the net. I'm ready and willing to do it given some support out there. Will I get enough news-worthy facts to carry this project? Tell me. Boris P.S.: I'll count to 3 and Jim will snap out of it. 1 2 3 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 19:22:40 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The Gospel of John Thomas Message: I've noticed over on the enjoyingcultlife.org site that in the wit'n'wisdom section, John MacGregor has been quoting heavily about Jesus from the Gnostic version of the Bible. Now if I'm not mistaken, whenever I've (we've) raised this whole issue of Perfect Masters and how premiedom and M keep perpetuating the notion that M is on a par and has the exact same 'gift/secret' to give as all the previous spiritual leaders (JC, Buddha, Mohammed, Krishna etc), then premies debating here have always said 'bollocks' and we've always ended up in a big debate over semantics. Now the fact that these quotes have managed to get past the editing process on that site, and presumably the Short M's OK, then this is absolute proof that M and premiedom are extremely happy to continue the fabrication of M as 'god in human form' by the constant association and reference made with all those other teachers who have that status and who hold such incredible religious and cultural significance in the world. Now maybe, just maybe, that guy sees that those quotes have no relation to M, and that they have just 'inspired' him over the years (cause that's the wit'n'wisdom description), but I doubt it - especially his first quote about the 'gift'. So, do you think now this debate has finally been put to bed? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 19:34:23 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Mickey the P Subject: Question for Mickey the P! Message: Hi Mickey, Being this site's expert religious text commentator (!!), can you clarify for me the importance/significance, if any, of the Gnostic gospels to the study of Christ's life. I was always keen to read their versions, and was just about to send off for some literature, when, guess what happened - I defected, and thus had my interest quashed. I do know that a lot of premies feel that it provides the definitive explanation of JC's 'gift' (aka Knowledge) and how he gave it to the disciples. Is it, as JMac on enjoyingcultlife.org says, the earliest record of JC's teachings? Is it still controversial? Is it given much credence in theological colleges? Sorry if you've already talked about this ad nauseum, but I can't remember reading a thread about it... Regards, TD PS Hope Mona and your family is well! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 01:16:16 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: TD Subject: Question for Mickey the P! Message: Hi TD, It's good to hear from you again; Mona and everyone are doing well. As far as your questions regarding the Gnostics, I tend to refer to them as the so-called Gnostics, as none of the groups referred to as Gnostics by the so-called orthodox ever referred to themselves as Gnostics. Gnosticism is a term framed by Irenaeus, Origen, and Athanasius, who were early Fathers of the Church and enemies of such groups. The Gnostics were people who mixed Christian or Jewish traditions with Persian mysticism; they were another school of Christianity, and were strong during the second and third centuries. They had a cosmology influenced by Platonic philosophy and which is quite confusing and difficult (IMHO) to understand. As far as our Premie brother's claim that the gospel of Thomas is the earliest verifiable record of Jesus' teachings, he is wrong. I did post on this last month and it's in the archives somewhere. As Gerry said, the verse he quotes is shaded black by the Jesus Seminar, which means it is not part of the tradition or something Jesus said. Gnosticism is of interest to those of us who study Patristics and the first three centuries of the Church, but Gnostic scriptures are only of interest in understanding the school in Alexandria and the roots of so-called heresy. The Gnostics had a 'secret knowledge (gnosis means knowledge in Greek) which was not available to 'the many,' or the majority of Christians. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 04:41:45 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Mickey the P Subject: Mille Grazie Padre, and... Message: Thanks for that detailed explanation Mickey! I hope some of the premies read it. Any further clues to what the 'gnosis' was? Is there any possible way it was a form of meditation, or could it have been anything - alchemy? healing? ways of winning the lottery? I guess the less specific the records, the easier it is for premies to make that association. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 11:31:53 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: TD Subject: Mille Grazie Padre, and... Message: From what I gather, the gnosis consisted of special teachings which explained the 'true nature and origin' of the Christ and had a lot to do with their (the so-called Gnostics') cosomology. It may have involved special rites which helped purify one's soul and quicken their way towards deification. Some groups claimed to have sex with angels, others had 'special wisdom.' I don't think it had anything to do with meditation but there is really no way to tell as the only information we have on the practices of these groups comes from their enemies (Irenaeus, Origen, etc). We do have some of their writings, and they have to do with the origin of the world and their version of the creation myth. Gnosis was pretty much esoteric knowledge, not eye-ball squeezing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 16:34:49 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Mickey the P/And on AJ Subject: Info on Hip-Gnosis... Message: Good one AoAJ! Thanks for that Mickey! At first I thought if the majority of recorded info still intact about the Gnostics was written by their enemies, it would contain their subjective 'hatred' and 'misinformation' about the Gnostics, but maybe not - depending on what the Irenaeus, Origen were like. Were they lying bastards wanting to paint a bad picture of the Gnostics and justify their enemy status, or were they just telling it as they saw it? Why I say that, is that M has apparently called us 'enemies' and even though we would like to 'bring M down' in a manner of speaking (read 'get him to give up the caper/tell the truth/stop the con/apologise/be accountable etc'), I see us as revealing the true facts behind the M myth. Many premies, I imagine, would see us as lying and with a malevolent agenda, which is a result of us being 'in our minds'. I guess the difference here is that it wasn't ex-Gnostics dishing the dirt on the Gnostics, but other groups. Foibles of history, eh? Hmmmmmmm. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 18:29:43 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: TD Subject: Info on Hip-Gnosis... Message: Irenaeus could be pretty nasty, and I really wonder about some of his accusations, but Origen was cool, IMHO, and was interested in showing what he considered to be mistakes in the cosmology and christology of the so-called Gnostics. One problem with Gnosticism, just as with K, was the elitism and self-righteousness of the groups; they felt that they had the 'real knowledge of God' and that everyone else was just not spiritually mature enough to fathom their mysteries (sound familiar?). Origen felt that everything was available in the scriptures, but depending upon one's spiritual maturity, the spiritual nourishment one received from the scriptures was either 'milk' (for spiritual babes) or solid food for those whose understanding was greater. The Gnostics felt that their spiritual superiority was the result of their pre-existent spirituality, especially the Valentinians. Read the 'Gospel of Truth' if you can find a copy; there is a pretty good translation by George MacRae, and you can find a lot of stuff on the web. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 15:43:57 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: The Gospel of Truth Message: Oops. I first took it that Irenaeus and Origen were groups, not individuals. Guess we don't go naming our kids like that anymore! Thanks for the name of that book. I'll check it out! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 07:59:35 (EST)
From: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Question for Mickey the P! Message: In your post on Nov 6 01:16:16 you write: The Gnostics had a 'secret knowledge (gnosis means knowledge in Greek) which was not available to 'the many,' or the majority of Christians. Those would be the ones practicing 'hip' gnosis. :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 11:19:00 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: Question for Mickey the P! Message: 'Those would be the ones practicing 'hip' gnosis.' Very nice, AoA!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 20:32:18 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: TD Subject: The Gospel of Thomas Message: The Gospel of Thomas is a gnostic writing. Gnostics though that the material world sucked. John MacGregor states that the writings are part of the part of the Nag Hammadi library. They are not. The Thomas papyruses were found fifty years early, one hundred and fifty miles away. Most of his quotes flunked the test in the Jesus seminar rating system as to authenticity, anyway. So if Jesus, the so-called PM of his day didn't say those words, then there's no mojo to 'em, right? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 05:34:44 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Gerry Subject: How do we tell 'em... Message: John MacGregor states that the writings are part of the part of the Nag Hammadi library. They are not. The Thomas papyruses were found fifty years early, one hundred and fifty miles away. ...they're wrong over there about the source of their quotes? Guess we'll have to wait until the 'Conversations' part of the website kicks in, but then they'll have a fulltime job correcting all their Short M mythology, eh? So what is the Nag Hammadi library then, if the Thomas papyruses are a separate thing? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 11:33:21 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: TD Subject: Don't Nag Me Message: So what is the Nag Hammadi library then, if the Thomas papyruses are a separate thing? It's a collection of Christian and Gnostic documents found near the town of Gan Hammadi in 1945 (Source: The Five Gospels) Pedantically Yurs, gerry Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 09:58:09 (EST)
From: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: anagram Subject: The Gospel of Thomas Message: In a post from Nov 5, 20:32:18, Gerry wrote: if Jesus, the so-called PM of his day didn't say those words, then there's no mojo to 'em, right? Jim Morrison m r mo J o ris i n (Mr Mojo Risin') Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 00:39:50 (EST)
From: Sam C. Email: None To: TD Subject: The Gospel of 'John Thomas?' Message: TD: Sorry, but I thought John Thomas was the last great 'old school' American high-jumper before everyone started copying Dick Fosberry... going over the bar backwards and upside down. I suppose it was a sort of Gospel. -Sam Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 04:51:59 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Sam C. Subject: The Gospel of 'John Thomas?' Message: I didn't know about John Thomas the high-jumper! I used John Thomas as when I was growing up, it was a polite word for 'penis' and I couldn't resist using it here! Maybe it was a British officer's word used during the war - it's an extremely 'nice' term, eh? So it's the Fossbery Flop! We used to call it the Flosby Flop, must have been the trans-indian pronunciation mixup! I wasn't much good at it. I was more of the ole scissor style, which I presume is the style Mr Penis used!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 04:37:40 (EST)
From: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: TD Subject: The Gospel of John Thomas Message: In your post of Nov. 5 19:22:40, you said: '. . . has the exact same 'gift/secret' . . .' That was the very much up-front message given. If I were to suddenly (aneurism, stroke) 'go guru' again, it'd be based on deification and apotheosis. Of course! That was the whole point; 'Our Father has come to lead us along this path of perfection / He's come to make us uh-un-der-stan' why we're alive / He is pure and his love is deeper than the ocean / He's taking control and he's making us all one / please please please ... ad nauseum. Look -- we were waving arms over our heads, swaying to the beat as we sang that song to him; in Denver; in Kansas City -- where *didn't* we sing it? There was a tacit understanding that a Premie doesn't *tell* but is happy to *do* these devotional gestures: the songs, the arm waving, the swaying. This went on for years. It occurs to me that at some point, the boy Sant Ji must have tried to walk on water. Really -- I'm sure he looked around to make sure nobody was watching, and just -- tried it -- to see if he could. I bet he was very suprised to find out he couldn't. He had to have tried it. I can't imagine having that intense Shri Maharaji laying that heavy trip on me, and then when he's dead, not checking it all out for myself, when I get handed my Destiny: You -- You are the One, to continue. Talk about your ghost stories. Dehra done. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 05:25:01 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: The Gospel of Drip, Drip, Drip Message: It occurs to me that at some point, the boy Sant Ji must have tried to walk on water. Really -- I'm sure he looked around to make sure nobody was watching, and just -- tried it -- to see if he could. I bet he was very suprised to find out he couldn't. He had to have tried it. I can't imagine having that intense Shri Maharaji laying that heavy trip on me, and then when he's dead, not checking it all out for myself, when I get handed my Destiny: You -- You are the One, to continue. I'm sure he did. I think this is a really interesting point, and it relates to some of the threads posted in Forest Gump's journey down below and how all of us ex-premies went through our own series of drip, drip, drips to get us out. Just as we went through that to get out, the Short M must have had his own series of drip, drip, drips for him to realise that he wasn't the Lard. For example, the Millenium fiasco had to be a big drip, and then maybe he did try the 'walking on water' stunt (speaking of which, that video showing him as a young lad swimming in a lake indicated he would have preferred to have walked on the water, as opposed to struggling with dog-paddle) which would have been another drip, and then something else unGodlike would have happened and he would have gone 'Hey, my superhuman powers have gone - where's that metaphorical krypton? Oh, I know, it's those slack-arse premies!' and thus he decided there and then to perpetuate the 'con' knowing full well he wasn't 'divine'. By the sounds of Bob Mischler's interview, he realised this pretty damn quick - and thus took to the drink to ease the stress of such a realisation. So in reality, he's obviously been living the 'con' a lot longer than he has the 'self-delusion'. As an aside, recently I traipsed through the Amazonian jungle for 5 hours to partake in an Ayahuascan ceremony (the hallucinogenic plant) with an Indian shaman, only to find the old dude was a lecherous drunken 83 year old. Sound familiar? Because of my recent premie/ex-premie experience, I was acutely aware of how 'stressful' it must have been for him to keep up the 'holy man' charade as all the village still believed he had holy powers, and came to him for all sorts of fixeruppers. I tell you I AM SO OVER HOLY MEN, and besides, the Ayahuasca made me projectile vomit (like Linda Blair), and I got no bloody visions to boot! When will I ever learn?? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 09:24:24 (EST)
From: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: TD Subject: The Gospel of Drip, Drip, Drip Message: For example, the Millenium fiasco had to be a big drip... ...Just as the Millenium Falcon had to be a big ship... :) Do you think he believed that his assumed powers waned when If that's the case then he may have, for instance, projected his wishful |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 10:15:54 (EST)
From: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: __ Subject: oops / accidental post / sorry Message: My floating darshan piece was a bit over the top. Sorry! Accidentally posted; was surprised when I saw it had gone through. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 10:44:42 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: accidental post--liked it Message: Your 'floating darshan' post supports the idea that it was a very trance oriented experience for all participants. Enough trance elements were present to induce a very altered state. According to trance theory, in trance, you give up some cognitive faculties and suspend critical judgement. And you are very suggestible at the same time. Nice trick, huh! I supposed the old Hindus first discovered this long ago and since it works so nicely, why give up a good thing? It's a cash cow. Get in tunnel.--go into trance--write big check for darshan envelope. Viola! Beer money for the BeaMer Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 11:24:15 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: mesmer Subject: I'm in a trance... Message: and I can't stop posting... Trance includes but is not limited to hypnosis, meditation,*** addiction and charismatic or centric trance.*** Some psychological problems are the direct result of a misuse or abuse of trance phenomena, usually because of ignorance. Find out how to recognize a trance state How to recognize trance inducing techniques Find out why you like to go into trance in the first place Discover who are the typical trance abusers How to defend yourself from trance abusers Trancesylvania Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 12:13:35 (EST)
From: aoa / no text in message Email: aoa To: Gerry Subject: WADI: Trance-Sister Radio :) Message: no text -- one-liner subject only. :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 03:51:01 (EST)
From: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: Gerry Subject: accidental post--liked it Message: Re: Your post of Nov 6 10:44:42 I'm glad you liked it. There is anger behind the lampooning; fear that M was psychotic to believe in his own divinity. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 13:59:25 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Gerry Subject: how deep is the trance? Message: In my opinion, we live in a heavy duty cultural trance, more powerful than entered into at times with the Big M. I think the Hindus and Buddhists are right with their appreciation of the power of Maya. Advertising people and politicians are acquainted to some extent. So are con artists. Semiotics and NLP deal with this to some extent. How deep does the illusion go? IMO few understand the depths of our conditioning. I don't think we are really the 'free thinkers' we like to think we are. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 15:33:00 (EST)
From: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: Bobby Subject: how deep is the trance? Message: Free? Feh. I live in a toilet of other people's manipulative thoughts. I'd guess that trance relates to the half of the brain that's always on automatic pilot. It takes something like a second and a half for the brain to formulate a novel response to an unmapped situation (see Daniel C. Dennett 'Consciousness Explained' for a short description of the experimental evidence of that). And that's pretty good, because in that short a time-frame, the brain (in aggregate, or perhaps 'in concert with parts of itself') -- it formulates a really pretty good and appropriate response to a new situation! If it takes a second and a half to formulate a response to novel stimulus, then every single act of volition comes from either a delay of 1500 milliseconds (1 1/2 seconds) -- or else it comes (in a much shorter time) from the 'library' of stored responses -- from the half of the brain concerned with replicating -- more or less exactly -- a previously-learned behavior or response to a stimulus. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 17:39:07 (EST)
From: And On Anand Ji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: Bobby Subject: ...deep is the trance? 1st Rev Message: Continued post by same author -- text you may have already seen is in mark-up (cite tags). Free? Feh. I live in a toilet of other people's manipulative thoughts. I'd guess that trance relates to the half of the brain that's always on automatic pilot. It takes something like a second and a half for the brain to formulate a novel response to an unmapped situation (see Daniel C. Dennett 'Consciousness Explained' for a short description of the experimental evidence of that). And that's pretty good, because in that short a time-frame, the brain (in aggregate, or perhaps 'in concert with parts of itself') -- formulates a really pretty good and appropriate response to a new situation! If it takes a second and a half to formulate a response to novel stimulus, then every single act of volition comes from either a delay of 1500 milliseconds (1 1/2 seconds) -- or else it comes (in a much shorter time) from the 'library' of stored responses -- from the half of the brain concerned with replicating -- more or less exactly -- a previously-learned behavior or response to a stimulus. --begin new material-- So obviously (apparently, anyway) we act in a variety of situations of some novelty -- or at least novelty-of-desire! -- with some measure of novel response. A football player sees and reacts to his environment in such a way that a good runner scores a touchdown, outwitting several opponents in one continuous run for the goal. At any one point, is he formulating novel responses? Yes and no -- he is, in real time, calling stored-inner-program after stored-inner-program -- in the correct sequence -- in much less time than a second and a half allows for each arisen novelty -- is that right? No, because he has trained to respond to every situation he responds to; he trains specifically to run a given strategy and to commit to that strategy -- even if it isn't working perfectly -- until it is finished. When I speak a sentence, there's a growing reservoir of past-spoken sentences that I choose from, to speak the present sentence. I clip fragments from many sources, and stitch-together a novel sentence. It is those times when I pause and reflect, that I am reaching beyond my stored sentence structures, looking for an as-yet unseen (or unspoken) sentence, to express what I wish to say. It may take years of stating it partially, incompletely -- and then, in one moment (that lasts perhaps three seconds) -- like a light that goes on, the sentence appears to me in its entirety, and it is good -- or I like it. -- All the NLP practitioner needs to do is slip in suggestions that cannot be easily out-maneuvered; he (she) has a second and a half to play with -- he can probably speak several words in that time frame. Keep the person distracted with situations that demand a novel response from the functioning, cognitive self -- the one concerned with novel response to novel stimulus -- keep that part busy with tautologies and emotional inconsistencies -- and slip their now-vulnerable selves an unconscious suggestion. Bingo -- reprogrammed them on the spot. All the victim can do to combat it is either to leave the sphere of influence of the unwanted, programming stimulus -- or to raise a counter-argument; to engage the self in dialogue or other activity that takes precedence over the unwanted, intrusive programming. When I watch E.R. on TV, I feel the emergency scenes are too invasive, so I click off the soundtrack with the remote button. I look away. When I watched Silence of the Lambs I shut the television off for a timed 5-minute interval, and enaged myself in some other activity - and then turned the set back on. I did that twice in one fifteen-minute sequence! Most the rest of the film was watchable. I walked out of Barton Fink when it suddenly turns nightmarish. I walked out on Death Wish (Charles Bronson) when I was sixteen -- the thought of walking out on any film I'd paid to see was almost heresy -- somehow I was indoctrinated to stay no matter what was shown. Death Wish changed that for me; it was intolerable in its gratuitous violence against women (I didn't mind seeing the bad guys get shot; it was the rape scene I found too disturbing). Change The Channel. That is a very basic tool or technique, when invasive programming of any kind is met. Premies are conned [their confidence is gained, then abused] out of that defense strategy, early in the game; else the game fails and the premie goes free. There's no money in that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 23:08:52 (EST)
From: b. Ji Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: ...deep is the trance? 1st Rev Message: Good point about the defense stategy aoaji. And about the brain functions. Melody May, Molly daughter, went with me to see 101 dalmations many years ago and she couldnt stand the chase scene with cruela de vil. So she wanted out of the theater. I took her out and I have come to see that I am about her speed even today, I wont watch a lot of scenes of shows that you will. I am not sure I grok the pleasure of gripping tension and unresolved anxious situations that drag on till the end of the show or movie. My wife will watch that pony tailed karate guy demolish 15 guys in 15 dif ways-steve segal, grusome stuff I think. Murphys law presents enough challenges to test your resistance to stress or overreaction. Living with this many people in a house I am regularly invited to go to hell but I decline. I accept that it is supposed to be this way. We are designed to be at odds. Best to be stoic and cheerful. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 13:34:34 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: TD Subject: The Gospel of Drip, Drip, Drip Message: I'm sure there were many 'drips' for Maharaji, including Millennium, that pie in the face, and the fact that after about 1976, very few people were even interested in him anymore, including the majority of the people who had received knowledge. That's gotta hurt and cause some self examination. I think he compensated for this by having the premies get him really nice stuff, fit for the incarnation of god on earth, like planes, Rolls Royces, and that 'residence' monstrosity in Malibu. Also, to the extent possible, he wanted the premies to prove their devotion to him by not only providing the money, but also by doing the 'work' themselves. The premies designed and built his house, and I remember on the Boeing 707 plane project, Maharaji suggested that the premies actually weave the fabric that would be used on the plane, in addition to doing all the other rennovation. It got that weird. He also has this thing about 'quality' and 'impeccability' about how everything is done. It's like he is trying to replace 'quantity' with 'quality.' I watched a video of Long Beach in 1997, and Maharaji goes on and on about how good he is at what he does and how efficient and perfect knowledge sessions are run these days, especially how everyone's questions get answered. Get real, Maharaji! By the time someone has gone through that indoctrinating 'aspirant process' they have learned quite well that you don't ask difficult questions if you want to receive knowledge. If you do, you don't receive knowledge. So those 'questions' at a knowledge session, I'm sure are things like:'why are you so beautiful?' and 'how can I serve you?' and things like that. I doubt anyone would ask 'are you god?' 'didn't you used to be called the lord of the universe?' How come you are so rich?' What about that other perfect master, your brother?' 'Who the fuck do you think you are?' I always thought Maharaji looked incredibly bored, almost pissed off, the majority of times I went through the 'tunnel of love' (that term was always sexually suggestive to me) to kiss his feet. Far from 'floating' he looked like he was 'sinking' into the chair. I imagine one could get really sick of it after a few hours, but the money was REALLY good, so I'm sure he figured it was worth it. AJW's Journey reminded me of the number of times donation envelopes were shoved in your face on the way into the tunnel. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 16:07:51 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: JW Subject: The Gospel of Cash Donations Message: It's like he is trying to replace 'quantity' with 'quality.' Ain't that the truth? The amount of times I heard coordinators of EV pass off M's pedantic requests as his 'desire for absolute quality'! AJW's Journey reminded me of the number of times donation envelopes were shoved in your face on the way into the tunnel. Other than the extra long high security 'tunnel of love' at today's revamped darshan, the one thing that appears to be different is the donation envelopes. They don't shove them in your face, and M told us beforehand that rather then bring him things at darshan, we can always send them direct to Malibu (must help him avoid those custom officials!). But, old habits die hard! They still provided a big box at the start of the queue for people to obviously pop their 'thank you cards', (read wallets!) into. As for him, I agree, he looked bored. I used to give him a big 'devotee smile' and I remember at my first darshan, he caught my eye when I was some way back in the queue, got my blissed out kilowatt smile (ha-ha!) and then smiled back! I was so touched by his attention in my zombie trance, I think I floated back out! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 16:43:14 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: TD Subject: The Gospel of Cash Donations Message: That happened to me too, TD! It wasn't my first darshan - I think it was in Toronto in 1974. Kept me going for a LONG time after that - it was one of the only experiences that I had that I could give satsang about! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 17:25:45 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: TD Subject: I AM SO OVER HOLY MEN Message: I love it, TD! Why, just last week I was at this Medicine Wheel gathering and one sister told us of her experience in Ecuador(?) (sounded just like yours). She reported dry heaves for several hours and no great hallucinations, trances, visions, nothing afterwards! Such a rip off! Love, eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 22:22:36 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: eb Subject: I AM SO OVER HOLY MEN Message: Wow eb! I'm glad someone else had the same experience! Wonder if it was the same shaman! Anyway, after I had dry retched as much as was possible, I had to sit down while the shaman beat me over the head with a garland of bushes for half an hour, singing old chants, whistling and then blowing invisible darts into my head. My very amused best friend who had come with me, and who had mumbled 'Bloody new age mumbo jumbo' for most of the jungle trek, sat and watched as the evil spirits were chased from me!! Later, they all told me that my throwing up was good for me, as I was purging myself of bad things. Great! I'm going to console myself with that next time I drink too much and have to do a technicolour yawn in the middle of the night! Was your medicine wheel just with women? I love going to women's circles. While in Ecuador, a French expatriate woman told me how she had to assist a group of French women who had gone to an Ayahuascan ceremony and had been raped while 'under the influence'! They had gone with sincerity and a genuine anthropological interest, and were in such a state when they got back. I feel lucky that being sick was the only thing that happened to me! I must say now, I would tell any woman interested in taking part in any kind of indigenous ceremony to do it only with other women. I wish it wasn't the case, but the presence of men, especially ones you don't know and yet who are supposedly 'holy', can be extremely threatening in situations like that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 12:52:21 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: TD Subject: I AM SO OVER HOLY MEN Message: Dear TD, My friend at the circle (it was a women's circle) told the same story. That would be so bizarre if you two met up with the same hooey hooey guy! She is definitely turned off to the idea of any more treks for enlightenment. She's currently a student at a local acupuncture college. I've only sat in circle with men a few times: two were in sweat lodge. I found it too distracting! One time, during our sharing, a brother started singing, 'Hey Look Me Over, Lend me your ear... Consider whenever your down and out, the only way is up....' Do you know that song? He sang the whole thing! What a crack up! I fell out laughing. Nowadays, I prefer the energy in women's circles. Even so, I take it all rather lightly. With love, eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 06:30:19 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: eb Subject: I AM SO OVER HOLY MEN Message: That's amazing eb! Probably was the same guy. Too freaky! Actually once we got back to this village, we went to a Salsa Bar and got chatting to a really lovely Ecuadorian woman whose father is a shaman, and she says she leads ayahuascan ceremonies, but only with women. She told us that there are a lot of dodgey shamans about, and she had heard about the one we went too. I just wish I'd met her before I'd gone off to see this other dude! That's so funny about that guy singing that song in the sweatlodge? I know that song! By Yazz, I think! I've done quite a lot of sweatlodges, and come to think of it, they've always been with men, and despite this long and strange spiritual trip I've been on, I still have such great memories of those sweatlodges! I think because they are so cleansing, on a physical level as well as mental. I used to always feel so fabulous and refreshed when I came out! If ever I get a place big enough, I might build my own in the backyard! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 08:00:19 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: Dehra done Message: Hi On and Anand Ji! Good to read your writing again. I have something for you. Maybe this weekend. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 08:35:41 (EST)
From: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: bill Subject: Dehra done Message: In your post of Fri Nov 6 08:00:19 you wrote: Good to read your writing again. Thank you. I have something for you. [raises one Vulcan eyebrow in your direction] Maybe this weekend. OK, sounds good to me. How's Mary? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 11:01:41 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: Walk on water Message: It occurs to me that at some point, the boy Sant Ji must have tried to walk on water. Really -- I'm sure he looked around to make sure nobody was watching, and just -- tried it -- to see if he could. Hahaha! Good one, Andy! Jerry Nov 6, 10:59:35 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 08:41:52 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: The Gospel of John Thomas Message: Hi, And On Anand Ji. How's it going? Where've you been? It occurs to me that at some point, the boy Sant Ji must have tried to walk on water. Really -- I'm sure he looked around to make sure nobody was watching, and just -- tried it -- to see if he could. I bet he was very suprised to find out he couldn't. He had to have tried it. Ha ha! I asked a premie once, 'if Maharaji is the next perfect master like Jesus, can he walk on water?' (okay, I was about 12 at the time). He said that, no, the master didn't perform miracles on command. (or some similar rationalization) I said, 'I didn't ask if he would walk on water, I asked if he could do it.' Then I got some answer about my mind being the source of my confusion. Mind wants some proof, but I shouldn't need proof. I had to let go of that. Drip Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 09:25:54 (EST)
From: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: VP Subject: Hi VP (Way Off Topic) Message: Disclaimer: This entire post is off-topic. Hi VP. Thanks for remembering me -- hey let's start a cult; one of the themes could be 'I remember those who remember me!' I'm not set up here to really enjoy this software -- I only have a 4-meg i486 to run Windows on, and I don't want to run the X Window System on my Linux box right now -- too many years of computers and I don't know what I want with them anymore. Kind of like when one rearranges the household furniture, doesn't like the result, but is too tired of it to fix it again -- good enough as-is. It amazes me how many ex's still hang their hats here; I have one primary online system I hang out on, and a few others I sometimes visit. This site of course has its unique scope that it's just nice to pop in for a visit now and again. But the daily wash of angst isn't all that appealing: He Fucked Us. We Fell For It. That Was Then, This Is Now. End of Story. Ok it's not that simple, but even in the computer club I was in, we found a lot more to talk about than our common interest -- the individual members would talk about boating, the outdoors, business deals, their wives and girlfriends -- mostly, we'd find excuses to go kayak or sailing together, or camping. A lot of us knew a heck of a lot about computers, too. It's funny how seldom computers came up as a topic fit for discussion! My health kind of sucks, but I manage. I quit smoking a year and 3 months ago, but it hasn't alleviated all the symptoms that I had before I quit. I believe, roughly, in western medicine and practices (though I've gotten muddled with new age bullshit and my own paranoia) -- but I sure don't trust western -- medical financing -- and I'm not very keen on the practical side of medical care: that I will be cared for using all that is known. The average joe is only concerned about the level of care, not the philosophical underpinnings, until things go very wrong. I have that joe's concerns plus the philosophical ones. So -- I've fallen back on the tried and true 'What did they do two hundred years ago?' excuse-of-a-philosophy. Anyway, I'm in therapy, as I have been for the past 14 years. It doesn't help much, seemingly. Anyway I dropped my full-time cable-modem connection to the Internet, and now I'm on a dialup ISP account (same provider as before the cable modem). I've been into the Internet and BBS's before that for many years; I ran my own dialup BBS in 1987 and two years before that I made my first modem call to a BBS -- I have a long background in this. It's just -- where's it all going? I'm proud to participate in Ex-Premie.Org -- I think it is an excellent (textbook) example of harnessing the unique power of the Internet -- and technology -- for positive social change. Ex-Premie.Org is literally changing people's lives. I don't think I need to maintain a constant presence here, to be deeply affected by its continued existence; and quite frankly, I don't feel welcome to contribute in the one way that I'm qualified to: technically. I encountered that same barrier in DLM, so it doesn't surprise me here. And besides, the existing tech support here is adequate -- if it isn't broke, why fix it. So, that leaves me without a strong motivation to hang out here; I don't have that much to say that's On Topic. What amounts to the 'hate speech' given here has a cumulative effect on me; even when I want to chime in and support the negativity, I can't -- I don't have the stomach for it, day in and day out. I have a problem with anger, outside of all this; probably had it in spades before I ever heard of Maharaji in 1976. I need to deal with that; and for me right now that means not indulging in a lot of focused anger -- because I don't know what I'm doing, and people do not like it one bit. So there you have it -- more than you wanted to know? :) p.s. I don't remember 'VP' but I'm not very good with that sort of thing. I sort of recall someone who grew up around premies but dodged the bullet themself; 'Virtual Premie' or really almost-a-premie would be my only guess. Me, I made a career out of being sure I was remembered. :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 11:42:28 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: stalking@freewheeling.com To: And On Anand Ji Subject: lapsed ex-ness Message: AOA: So, that leaves me without a strong motivation to hang out here; I don't have that much to say that's On Topic. What amounts to the 'hate speech' given here has a cumulative effect on me; even when I want to chime in and support the negativity, I can't -- I don't have the stomach for it, day in and day out. I have a problem with anger, outside of all this; probably had it in spades before I ever heard of Maharaji in 1976. I need to deal with that; and for me right now that means not indulging in a lot of focused anger -- because I don't know what I'm doing, and people do not like it one bit. Welcome back! I can relate to what you're saying. I am amazed at the ability of some to continue the discussion about GMJ w/o losing interest, although it is a worthy project. I admire them, and think I must ultimately have a poor attention span, but feel I've said most of what I wanted to say specifically about him. At some level I have a problem with the concept that this business about charismatic leadership is easily resolved, by simply insisting on rigorous rationality. There's a smugness there that just leaves me ill at ease. Anyway, that's a much broader issue, and one that is too far off topic. Basically, Maharaji is not a close call, so if I have reservations about the general proposition that the rational mind can safely guide us through these waters those reservations are not an issue with the Guru. A little common sense ought to be sufficient, and I'm amazed that it usually is not. I suspect the reason has to do with the fact that nothing else seems to offer what that sort of devotion seems to offer. (Sorry about the double ambiguity.) I think it's a sort of cruel hoax to suggest that the rational mind can offer anything like that to people. Devotion to a Guru, or a cause, or a personality answers human needs that are not being met in other ways. It's a matter of consequences vs. alternatives, but let's be realistic. Becoming an inflexible skeptic is like being resigned to live without sex... easiest if you're past 90. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 12:09:19 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: lapsed ex-ness Message: A little common sense ought to be sufficient, and I'm amazed that it usually is not. I suspect the reason has to do with the fact that nothing else seems to offer what that sort of devotion seems to offer. (Sorry about the double ambiguity.) I think it's a sort of cruel hoax to suggest that the rational mind can offer anything like that to people. Devotion to a Guru, or a cause, or a personality answers human needs that are not being met in other ways. Interesting observation. I don't really have anything to say in response to it, I just wanted to let you know that I found your observation very astute. So you never know who you might be helping, here, just by making your own honest remarks. Thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 13:05:15 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: I think it's relevant Message: IJWTS that I appreciate your post anandji and continue to come here to the ex-forum in hopes of encountering more posts like yours. Frankly I hate to get flamed. Probably its something I need to learn, but it still hurts. I take a lot personally, perhaps too much so, and feel like fighting back. That's part of the fabric of who I am and I can't easily change it. Taking things personally also has it's good points. Lately I feel like you seem to do about computers. I've been into them for a long time and have done a lot of 'rearranging of furniture', a chore especially tiresome after the periodic and inevitable windows crashes. Computers have lost a lot of the magic they used to hold for me. However the juice still comes through for me here and there and I once again get excited to post online. Like you I'm not into the anger and the angst. Been there and done that in spades but mostly in other arenas. Like being angry at the system. Allow me to say it like you. I'VE BEEN ABUSED AND FUCKED BY THE SYSTEM! I'VE BEEN ABUSED AND RIPPED OFF ROYALLY BY INDIVIDUALS! That was then this is now. I've come to terms with a lot of my anger and have passed through. I'm grateful to be able to let go of much of it. Personally I don't care how much of a fraud Maharaji is or was. I don't devalue the experience of others, whatever they feel. Their experience is not my experience and my experience is not theirs. I had delightful and wonderful experiences with the premies. The ashram as I experienced it in 71, 72 and 73 was mostly a comparative safe haven and healing place for me. Sure it was whacky. But it was a delicious whackiness. And I got a wonderful meditation. I see frauds all over the place. I think our society and our culture is extremely whacky. I think that all of us, including me, have been or are frauds when we don't walk our talk or misrepresent who we are or fuck others over. All of us. Some here have been hurt to a greater extent than others by the 'fraudulence' of Maharaji. And his level of fraudulence, as far as I'm concerned, is debatable. Lots of people have different experiences. Can't we honor the individual experience? How do you feel when someone tries to tell you what your experience was? How do you feel when someone tries to tell you that your experience was totally bogus? My experience is my experience. I resent it when others try to force their definitions of experience on me. That's part of my anger. Very justfied I think. In the experiences of my life I was hurt very badly by the forcefulness of others in ways that Maharaji never did to me. Even when I was a premie in the ashram there were many who tried to tell me what how I should feel or what I should be doing in regard to my life. I didn't like it then and I don't like it now when 'true believers' of any persuasion try to tell me how to think, feel or act. It's just -- where's it all going? ain't going nowhere - as Mr. Natural would say (sorry, couldn't resist) I appreciate you're explanation of why you're here and why you don't participate more. What you said about the anger I agree with . I especially agree with what you said about not feeling welcome to contribute in the ways you are qualified to. My qualifications are a bit different. Most can't relate, but those who do relate could benefit. I very much like meeting people I knew from times past. Even those who have done me harm. My friend Raymond told me a really interesting story on Thursday. A friend of ours, Tashi, grew up in Tibet. When she was a small girl, the Chinese came in and took over the household where she lived for an extended period. Tashi at times was beaten by one man in particular. Years later Tashi made it into India. She became a doctor. One day a man came for emergency treatment. It was the same Chinese man who had beaten her when she was a child. She recognized him but apparently he didn't recognize her. She medically treated this man and the man was very grateful and expressed his gratitude. She then let him know who she was. The man's mouth fell open. He did not know what to say. Take care And On Anand Ji. Who knows, we may have encountered each other in some incarnation or satsang. (just kidding, don't flame me). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 18:36:52 (EST)
From: And On Anand Ji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: Bobby Subject: I think it's relevant Message: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 13:05:15 (EST) From: Bobby To: And On Anand Ji Subject: I think it's relevant Message: IJWTS that I appreciate your post anandji and continue to come here to the ex-forum in hopes of encountering more posts like yours. Thank you, Bobby -- I appreciate your words. -Andonanandji And On Anand Ji's Home Page Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 16:01:27 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: The story's NOT over yet Message: Aoaj, It's good to hear from you again and yes, I appreciate your sentiment. This 'campaign', if you will, is indeed rife with bitterness and retrospection. But think about it. Aren't you glad we were doing this when you came along? Didn't you, haven't you benefitted at all from this ongoing debriefing? If Maharaji, bless his soul, were dead already, I can't imagine carrying on as much as I do. For myself, though, I just can't stomach the prospect of his relief, however small, knowing that we'd just kind of packed up and let bygones be bygones. This is like any other political or social campaign. It stretches out over time, people come and go, wtih varying agendas and energies. No one's forcing anyone to post here or do anything. On the other hand, I think we've already rocked Maharaji's world a bit and I think that's a good thing, well worth the effort. Plus, we've been there for each other in trying to sort out reality a bit. That's good too. After all, this is kind of tricky shit. Bobby, below, as he's always so anxious to tell everyone, believes he's been fucked over by 'the system' against which Maharaji's abuse is small by comparison. Well, I never 'pranamed' to a picture of the 'system' every morning, new and night for all my twenties. I didn't give up sex for it or fear and pray to it my every waking moment. Maharaji DOES figure large in my own personal landscape and I make no apologies for that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 17:03:20 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Jim Subject: The story's NOT over yet Message: This is like any other political or social campaign. It stretches out over time, people come and go, with varying agendas and energies. No one's forcing anyone to post here or do anything. On the other hand, I think we've already rocked Maharaji's world a bit and I think that's a good thing, well worth the effort. Plus, we've been there for each other in trying to sort out reality a bit. I agree with what you say. Even though this website, by its very nature and content, can leave me feeling a tad depressed because it always serves as a constant reminder of 'that part of my life', I am eternally grateful for its presence, and I find myself continuing to contribute - partly because I want to help other borderliners defect, and partly because, as you noted, most social/political campaigns take time and regular amounts of energy. There's also a good dollop of humour which is always welcome! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 17:12:04 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: TD Subject: At least he mentioned us Message: Again. Check out the Hans Jayanti report over on the EnjoyingLife site. Go to 'Around the Planet' then click 'Electronic Times'. Maharaji deals with us regularly now by explaining why he'll never deal with us. Some day, some day... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 23:44:49 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: ANyone Subject: The story's NOT over yet Message: Also, I find the off-topic conversation very interesting, ie, religion, philosophy, music, books (I'm collecting book titles of books mentioned here that I'd like to read). I feel a strange kinship with folks on the forum. Even with occasionally flaming, etc, I feel very safe here (to coin a pop psych word). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 17:05:06 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Helen Subject: How is this forum safe? Message: Hi Helen. You say you feel safe on this forum. What does 'safe' mean to you? Do you think everyone is safe here? Safe from what? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 18:52:44 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Bobby Subject: How is this forum safe? Message: Hey Bobby, in pop-psychology terms the word 'safe' means feeling like you can be who you are. Didn't you read John Bradshaw, man? 'Healing the Shame Within You'? Basically, Bradshaw says in healthy families people are allowed to be who they are, allowed to have their opinions, emotions, etc. But besides all that stuff, (I'm in a shame spiral, man) My experience on this forum has been to lighten up and enjoy it. I think disagreement, discussion etc. is healthy and fun. SPiritual trips seem to repress that (in my opinion). You're supposed to sit and meditate through your meal, focussing on your mantra. Well fuck that, I want to discuss ideas, issues and joke with my family at the dinner table. There will be time to try to achieve oneness with God when I'm 80- years old and preparing for death. Now I'm alive. Maybe I'm not being quite honest. I love those feelings of grace and oneness as much as the next person. I guess I feel safe even with all the hubbub & Chaos , even when I'm being flamed, because that's how hungry I am for this kind of discussion What do you think? I don't know your whole history on this forum but I got a glimpse of some conflict (what an understatement) between you & Jim. Do you feel safe? Do you like the discussion. What's the story, morning glory? What's the buzz, gus? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 19:46:09 (EST)
From: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: Jim Subject: The story's NOT over yet Message: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 16:01:27 (EST) From: Jim To: And On Anand Ji Subject: The story's NOT over yet Message: Aoaj, It's good to hear from you again and yes, I appreciate your sentiment. This 'campaign', if you will, is indeed rife with bitterness and retrospection. But think about it. Aren't you glad we were doing this when you came along? Let's distinguish between the static content of the site, and the Forum. I spoke only to the ongoing forum content. I do not believe it is necessary or expedient to engage in constant, gratuitous M-bashing in the forum, especially disrespectful lampooning and the like. I think, as a sergeant in the Air Force once said to me, that it is 'unbecoming of a human being' to behave that way, willfully, and with both eyes open. It's one thing to get something off the chest; it is another to willfully and publicly malign someone who has injured one deeply. Didn't you, haven't you benefitted at all from this ongoing debriefing? I benefitted in two ways: 1. I found someone here I know very well, f2f, who's public disavowal of M and his cult gave reason to look closely at my own complacency wrt Maharaji+cult. 2. I got The Rest Of The Story . . . all those parts I was ever-curious about, during my time as a devoted Premie. The Bob Mischler (sp?) story and all that static content on the web site. I'd read Sophia Collins' Soul Rush (cite from memory only; may be in error) in which she talks about the cult honestly. But somehow I was able to defer. This was maybe 1992 when I read her book; I was still singing the devotional songs around the apartment while doing dishes, and secretly holding onto my status as better than everyone else. Feh. I don't see benefit from some of the career bile-posting going on in the forum. The same information can be distributed with great care, courtesy and kindness. But that is not what happens in the Forum, in my opinion. It's got to the point where a given byline is bypassed: who needs the grief? Taunting practicing Premies, rehashing the same conceded point for the tenth time (with fresh bitterness the only novelty there) -- I think it is time to begin the process of modeling an appropriate, livable response-style for others to build on; and this is true of the entire Internet culture; it isn't just Ex-Premie.Org perpetuating untoward speech. If people can't feel comfortable and befriended here, they will go elsewhere. If they don't, that is illness, not wellness, speaking. At best, it is deeply misplaced loyalty. Maharaji is not our friend. Practicing premies hurt each other on a regular basis -- it's unavoidable and we all did plenty of that, I believe. If Ex-premies hurt each other on a regular basis, it is like the obsessive parent who fights with outsiders in front of the child: it models an ugly behavior and does not take the child's feelings under consideration. It is like the man who fights with his wife in the restaurant: spoils everybody's appetite. Especially if she had it coming (because nobody does; nobody has it coming). [It is an] ill wind which blows no man to good. --- Henry IV ACT V SCENE III FALSTAFF. What wind blew you hither, Pistol? PISTOL. Not the ill wind which blows no man to good. Sweet knight, thou art now one of the greatest men in this realm. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 20:10:29 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: Please, Aoaj, explain further Message: I do not believe it is necessary or expedient to engage in constant, gratuitous M-bashing in the forum, especially disrespectful lampooning and the like. I think, as a sergeant in the Air Force once said to me, that it is 'unbecoming of a human being' to behave that way, willfully, and with both eyes open. It's one thing to get something off the chest; it is another to willfully and publicly malign someone who has injured one deeply. Aoaj, What's the principle behind this sentiment? Personally, I think I've earned the right to lampoon the hell out of the Perfect Hamster for the rest of my days. As publically as possible and yes, with both eyes open. Disrespectfully? Entirely. This isn't the Air Force, this is my life (and yours and yours and yours and yours). I don't have to maintain appearances for the sake of some institution. What, pray tell, is 'unbecoming of a human being' to deflate and laugh at my former mental captor? I don't see benefit from some of the career bile-posting going on in the forum. The same information can be distributed with great care, courtesy and kindness. But that is not what happens in the Forum, in my opinion. What exactly would you communicate to whom with such 'great care, courtesy and kindness'? Please be specific. Not sanctimonious, specific. It's got to the point where a given byline is bypassed: who needs the grief? Taunting practicing Premies, rehashing the same conceded point for the tenth time (with fresh bitterness the only novelty there) -- I think it is time to begin the process of modeling an appropriate, livable response-style for others to build on; What does your first sentence mean? And what points are conceded by who? And what do you mean by 'modeling an appropriate, livable response-style for others to build on'? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 21:19:13 (EST)
From: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: Jim Subject: No. Not interested, Jim. Message: I'm not interested in responding to what you just said. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 22:33:23 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: That's no surprise Message: Aoaj, I'm not surprised that you won't answer. After all, you posted some high-falluting, extremely sanctimonious if oblique criticisms of us (all the while urging ex's to not fight with one another) and I asked you to make it real. You can't and rahter than admit so, you're PRETENDING to look down your nose at me. That sort of posturing is REALLY transparent, Ji. Look, fella, you're no better than anyone here. You've benefitted from the efforts here and, in my opinion, are being hypocritical in saying that you have some magic program for 'more human' behaviour. Your web page says that you're 'up to no good' over on the ex site. You got that right. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 18:35:06 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: No. Not interested, Jim. Message: AOA: Listen, I get it. 'Unbecoming' means 'not attractive.' It's not a difficult equation after all. There is certainly a place for lampooning someone like M, and it might even be attractive to do so. But, will it be attractive in the long run? I don't know. My guess, which is a purely subjective, is: probably not. It's just not that gorgeous to start with, and the comeliness fades like a preference for paisley. I'm not sure that there is such a thing as the sensitive sort of discussion you envision though. I mean, we ARE talking about a form of tyranny... often with people who are the staunch defenders of that distorted worldview. If it's not exactly a higher calling, Ji, it probably is more handsome than you give it credit for being. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 02:58:45 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: All Subject: Lower interest rate, Jim. Message: Can't Aoanand express some dissatisfaction with the forum without being chastised for his incorrect opinion? He does express gratitude and his having definitively left M fairly recently. The context of his 'complaints' was an explanation of why he doesn't always spend alot of time here. That is an appropriate context, qualifying his statements to imply he would like to be here more if.. i am grateful to the forum but it does seem fair enough for Aoa to say what he was saying. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 11:56:18 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Mere speculation, Run Message: Can't Aoanand express some dissatisfaction with the forum without being chastised for his incorrect opinion? He does express gratitude and his having definitively left M fairly recently. The context of his 'complaints' was an explanation of why he doesn't always spend alot of time here. That is an appropriate context, qualifying his statements to imply he would like to be here more if.. Run, You're mixing things up. Of course Aoaj can express whatever the hell he wants. He can also pontificate if that's what he wants to do. He can do ANYTHING! All I was doing was asking him to clarify what it was he was saying. If you think it was so clear then maybe you wouldn't mind explaining. All I read was some very oblique criticism without any specific recommendations for a better world. ANYONE can do that, Run. Anyone can tsk-tsk the ex's for behaving in a 'less than human fashion'. Anyone can say we're not communicating properly. If you call asking for some clarification 'chastising', sorry, I think that's ass-backwards. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 12:43:11 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Jim Subject: More speculation, Jim Message: This didn't post last time so if it ends up duplicated you will know why. Jim, I respect you for being a spear-head. I'm glad you're hot-headed intellect is at work fighting Guma. I sincerely genuflect in your direction without financial compensation or hope thereof in spite of a brilliant promotional mind at work in your service. I just don't think you need to worry so much about some stuff- I thought Andonanand was pretty pro-forum. The criticism he offered was well famed in a subjective context- that this is why you don't see me here too much, an extremely appropriate kind of language for the somewhat confessional, post-premie format the forum has. You can afford to let him think a little negatively. What's the big need to comment on everything that in any way may implicate you in not being 100% objective? I don't want to argue it, my friend. That's what I think. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 13:05:18 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Runamok Subject: More speculation, Jim Message: Run, It sounds like you just want to say this but not really discuss it further. I'm sorry. I WILL take the last word then, if you don't mind. Aoaj came on CHASTISING us for behaviour which was, he suggested, less than human. You're right in thinking that pissed me off. Surprise, surprise. If AOAJ can't be bothered to discuss it further I say who needs him? Sorry, I'm just being a little subhuman I guess. Don't worry. You don't need to reply. I mean you never need to do anything but I'm just saying I won't expect to her from you on this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 03:35:38 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Jim Subject: More speculation, Jim Message: Well, if you are truly being 'a little subhuman' it might call for more than a shrug. Try to remember my pronouncements of respect for you and maybe I will feel freer to argue with you sometime. Anyway, I'm supposed to be too busy for the forum now, and I am (well... ). Could you take a run check? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 04:02:34 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Runamok Subject: A run check? Message: Add that to your list of band names. Sure, this is just another argument we never have to have. Ah, for those days when I could just meditate! Oh well. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 19:36:44 (EST)
From: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: Scott T. Subject: one room schoolhouse Message: Hi Scott, The Forum at Ex-Premie.Org is a one-room schoolhouse: there's nowhere to go if I don't wish to hear certain themes repeatedly pursued; it's all happening in one logical conversation space. Forum architecture. Anonymous nature of the system; lack of userid's, accounts and passwords, possibility of spoofing (of new identities by the same old participants), and other matters of concern all play a role. Right now it's a bit crowded into one arena. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 20:19:27 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: two room schoolhouse Message: Hey AoAJi - I beg to differ. I think your, and Scott's, and whomever's opinion is needed here. I have disagreed with Jim and others, gotten flamed, and kept on going. I think you can do the same. If you don't agree with something that's said, then why not say it? I do, and I don't get crucified for it, either. All I can say is your input is welcome. You may well have to put up with flames, but there are plenty of other people on here who have as well. I think you can handle it. Take care, Katie P.S. No more 'Moby Dick', please, though. I KNOW it's a classic, but... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 21:30:22 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: Hi VP (Way Off Topic) Message: Yes, that was me, the one with the premie family who was searching the internet for Maharaji about 11 months ago. If I believed in grace, I would have to say that by it, I ended up finding this site :) I was certainly thankful that this site was in existance when I came. It must seem weird to some people that I hang out here. A dead friend and many questions about his death have haunted me for years. Now lots of parts to that puzzle have been answered. I can't begin to explain how freeing that is. I hear what you are saying about being here. I don't think it is for everyone to stay. I have made attachments and care about some of the people here, so I guess that is a main attraction for me. I know that from time to time I get VERY BORED discussing Maharaji. But I have noticed that a lot of different topics come up here--books, music, politics, etc. and I like the off topic discussions. I think it's important to note that ex-premies HAVE gotten on with their lives. They have full rich lives without a guru. They have their own personalities. They think for themselves. Yes, they even argue. And have fun. It's not all about bashing Maharaji on the forum. People are getting on with things here. Are some of them still angry? Yes! I don't fault them for their anger. I didn't go through what they did, so I can't judge it. I also don't have to get sucked into anger, because I have no need to. At the same time, I think that anyone who is unhappy with Maharaji and wants out should be able to find a place to talk about their fears and doubts. I am happy to participate in those discussions. Every person who gets free from Maharaji is someones son or daughter, someones Mom or Dad, someone's friend. Maybe if my friend had had somewhere to go and just talk...well, we will never know, will we? I'm not stuck in the past anymore, I'm looking to the future. If one unhappy person gets help, it's worth time spent here. Take Care, VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 20:32:39 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: in defense of the forum Message: Hi, And On Anand Ji - It's good to see you here again, and I hope you'll continue to be around at least periodically. You wrote: I'm proud to participate in Ex-Premie.Org -- I think it is an excellent (textbook) example of harnessing the unique power of the Internet -- and technology -- for positive social change. Ex-Premie.Org is literally changing people's lives. I don't think I need to maintain a constant presence here, to be deeply affected by its continued existence; and quite frankly, I don't feel welcome to contribute in the one way that I'm qualified to: technically. I encountered that same barrier in DLM, so it doesn't surprise me here. And besides, the existing tech support here is adequate -- if it isn't broke, why fix it. I personally do think that you have other contributions to make besides technical support, which Brian prefers to handle himself (at this time, anyway). You may feel that you repeat yourself by telling your story - I know I do, and I know JW and VP do, and I think Jim probably does too. It's just that this isn't a closed discussion group where the twenty of us or so come to a conclusion and then leave it at that. It's constantly ongoing, new people, new lurkers, and everyone has something different to contribute. You also wrote: So, that leaves me without a strong motivation to hang out here; I don't have that much to say that's On Topic. What amounts to the 'hate speech' given here has a cumulative effect on me; even when I want to chime in and support the negativity, I can't -- I don't have the stomach for it, day in and day out. I have a problem with anger, outside of all this; probably had it in spades before I ever heard of Maharaji in 1976. I need to deal with that; and for me right now that means not indulging in a lot of focused anger -- because I don't know what I'm doing, and people do not like it one bit. I don't feel that people need to indulge in hate speech or trashing Maharaji or premies to post on here. In fact, a lot of people don't - they just tell their experience as it was. If you do feel that you have a problem with appropriate expression of anger, then it might be better not to get into some of the more negative threads here. But relating your own experience and ideas is enough. I also want to defend Jim here. I know Jim's post can be vitriolic and ridiculing, and sometimes they make me cringe (I think Jim knows this), but SO many people have told me that Jim's outspoken, take-no-prisoners talk about Maharaji has helped them to leave the cult and to find the courage to speak up for themselves. I mean, the guy is trashing the Lord of the Universe and he's not getting struck down by lightning. Maybe you see his posts as repetitive, but again, I want to remind you how many new people are finding the forum every day. And for those who are turned off by Jim's posts, there are plenty of other people posting on here with somewhat different viewpoints. That's why I encourage you (and everyone) to stick around and keep posting. Take care, AoAJi, Katie P.S. You also wrote: Me, I made a career out of being sure I was remembered. :) Yeah, what was it - the time you uploaded 'Moby Dick' to the forum? I'm sure I'll remember sooner or later. :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 21:14:41 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: I'm blushing Message: Katie, That was the sweetest left-hander I've ever gotten. Thanks. Listen, when this is all over, rest assured, all of us -- you, me, Cd, Bruce and Maharaji, Joe, everyone -- we're going to sit around, drink tea and eat cakes. There'll be lots for everyone and hugs all round. I wouldn't worry about it. Trust me. Really, it'd be better for everyone if you simply left no room for doubt in your mind. :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 22:11:12 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: I'm blushing Message: Hey Jim - it really wasn't meant to be a left-hander, honestly. I just know that you can't handle the right-handed style of compliment. Or too many of them anyway. BTW, and you probably won't like this either,I get the biggest kick when people talk about that dreadful Jim Heller. It always reminds me of the moms talking about the bad kid on the block when I was growing up. Of course I'm sure you were always one of the best-behaved kids in your neighborhood :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 21:51:52 (EST)
From: Diz Email: None To: Katie, AoAJi Subject: in defense of the forum Message: Katie, you put things so well. As someone who has been, and continues to be, helped by this forum as I struggle to get over 20 years of Mj conditioning, I'm surely glad that people keep posting. And I love the RANGE of views that get expressed here. It saddens me when someone like you, AoAJi, feels there isn't much of a place for you because the forum 'tone' isn't in line with your way of communicating. I appreciate your way, and that of the many other 'softer' communicators who post here. I also, let me add, am one of the people who has benefitted from the more biting comments of Jim and some others. Still, it's not my style either, and it's taken me a while to get accustommed to it. And Jim, I still don't think I'd survive too well if you decided to pick my less-than-180-IQ logic to bits! (BTW, I also appreciate that you don't just go around biting people's heads off for no reason.) Katie makes the point that the forum is what we make it, each one of us creates the 'tone', sets the parameters for discussion. It can take courage to go against what one perceives as the prevaling culture, but I for one would encourage all exes to consider this forum their own, and keep the perspectives canvassed here as wide as possible. Both because it's of benefit to all of us, and because lurking waverers are more likely to find a post to which they can relate if the diversity is readily apparent. I for one do not find hate to be a particularly prevalent emotion in what I read here. I myself do not hate MJ, although I do feel very distressed about some of the outcomes of his trip in the lives of his followers and those around them. I still tend to think he deludes himself almost as much as he deluded us - that he believes he's doing good - the big, ultimate good no less - in an overall sense, so the money and the multiple realities and the security and the occassional casualty and whatever else is all justified (and anyway, those of us who 'fell' just didn't do it right, did we - didn't surrender enough, didn't listen enough, didn't meditate enough...). I don't like this, as I've said before, I think it's super dangerous, I hate the ideas...but I can't hate him for it. Probably be easier, in a way, if I could. Also, I don't like to be disrespectful to anyone, if I can help it. Again, maybe that's as much of a fault as a virtue. I do find a lot of good feeling on this forum, a lot of humanity. And not only in the 'off topic' bits. I have a sense of a diverse group doing many things in their lives. Some people have gotten on with things more successfully than others. Some have had more time to remake their lives than others, either because they didn't follow the 'detachment' dogma so completely, or because they got out earlier. The support for those who are still in the initial stages of coming out of cult-land is one of the things I most value about this forum. Some very human stuff here, IMHO. It's here that I think we need to take care in our communication - newly ex-premies are likely to be shell-shocked, and waverers also may be looking for a less harsh response that that delivered by many premies to those having the dreaded 'doubts'. Having said all that, I don't know how often I'll have time to post over the next few months, as my net access is intermittent. I haven't posted much of late, but I've enjoyed catching up on some of what's been said over the past few weeks. As usual, it's all helped. Love ya all, love to all Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 22:19:07 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Diz Subject: serendipitous Message: Hi Diz - I was just thinking about you tonight and wondering what was going on with you. Glad you're still around. Thanks very much for what you said about what I wrote. You express yourself very well also, btw. I'm glad that you agree with me about the forum (and even about Jim!). Have fun on your travels - Take care of yourself, too. Love, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Nov 10, 1998 at 22:57:39 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Diz Subject: Glad to hear fm you, Diz Message: Good to hear from you, Diz. I've quoted you quite a bit on the Forum, which is to say you've influenced me (for the good). Hope you are well. Thanks for that post. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 19:00:48 (EST)
From: Katie, Helen Email: None To: Helen Subject: Glad to hear fm you, too Message: Thanks for your good wishes, Katie and Helen. I'm doing okay, thank you. Hope all goes well with you both, too. Much love Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 20:03:28 (EST)
From: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: Katie Subject: Moby Dick Message: Moby Dick! I'd forgotten that one. The experiment of trying it without vitriol is worth the risk, IMO. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 20:24:03 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: Moby Dick Message: Yeah, but the webmaster gets kind of cranky around here. I mean he does have to hold down a full time job, as well as attending to the forum and the site... Things like 'Moby Dick' just don't appeal to him after he comes home from working a 16-hour day, if ya know what I mean. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 23:22:28 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: How? Again, how? Message: The experiment of trying it without vitriol is worth the risk, IMO. These kinds of gerneal statements are easy to make (he said honestly, but dispassionately with nary an aggressive overtone in his voice). How, specifically, would you suggest we proceed? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 12, 1998 at 13:08:42 (EST)
From: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: Jim Subject: How? Again, how? Message: Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 23:22:28 (EST) From:Jim To:And On Anand Ji Subject:How? Again, how? Aoa: The experiment of trying it without vitriol is worth the risk, IMO. Jim: How, specifically, would you suggest we proceed? A lot of systems create and then enforce (or at least create) an editorial policy. I think FidoNet has one of the most tolerant:
The discussion of the balance of these two principles would fill a room -- they're often talked about in the very medium and net work which demands their (attempted!) compliance. I would also suggest composing in a word processor, rather than using the fill-in form on the program that will post the mail or message. The 'preview' page displayed by Forum III can usually be saved to disk, in most web browsers. If there's a copy on disk, that buys some time to make a considered editorial decision. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 12, 1998 at 16:47:04 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: To : And On Anand Ji Message: Dear And On ANand Ji, I really enjoy reading your posts, and I hope you keep posting. I know you have good intentions, but I think one can't really fight a force like GM w/good feeling (I really believe that Maharaji has a sort of criminal mind). I like the passion that's on this forum, and I think its strength is needed. If things on the forum were overly edited, my sense is that some of that passion could be lost. I think we have a purpose, of trying to bring Maharaji and his empire to a halt, or at the least to help individual folks deprogram themselves from the possibly dangerous and most definitely unhappy emotional & psychological fog of his trip. I think that the disagreement, the bantering back & forth here, is good. If we are to be strong, wise people, I feel that we should be able to take some criticism in life and be resilient. Sure, posting here has made me squirm a few times, (especially as I go to church!) but then you know what--it's made me really think about my beliefs, not just about God but the kind of beliefs that are very unconscious--beliefs that made me susceptible to a cult in the first place. Seymour quoted Vonnegutt as saying that being able to verbalize and argue one's beliefs makes one stronger within oneself (I have to find that post again). I think it's so important that people be able to face adversaries and name why they believe as they do. I do not think one has to always be in an adversarial style of communication all the time. That is exhausting, and counterproductive. But I think there is gentleness as well as toughness here on this forum. I see a lot of variety here. I guess I don't see the 'one room schoolhouse' repetitiveness that you see. I'm pretty new to the forum and very enthusiastic about it, I'm one of these optimistic types, maybe I'm not too bright, I don't know. But that's just one opinion. I really like hearing your opinions--your opinion is needed here. Really liked your description of trance states and GM--brilliant. Thanks, Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 13, 1998 at 11:15:47 (EST)
From: And On Anand Ji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: Helen Subject: To : And On Anand Ji Message: Thank you, Helen. I hear what you're saying. As I say, I think it is well-worth the risk to experiment with a more considered approach; I've seen it work, and when it does, it's wonderful. What comes out of it is worth what it takes to get there. The Internet is not a good medium, anyway, for conflict-resolution, IMO. It is an excellent medium for conviviality. If there are, in theory, hundreds of non-practicing premies reading this forum, from time to time, what is your theory on why they do not post; on why they do or do not return and visit here? Are they lurking? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 13, 1998 at 12:29:03 (EST)
From: Helen a go-go Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: Thinking Out Loud Message: Hey AOAJ, So are you saying that being flamed makes them not feel 'safe' enough to linger? Do we in essence, give them the finger? (sorry, I just wrote a poem, in Dr. Suess style, so now I'm rhyming everything!) I just don't think one can legislate expression, and besides, some of us are very considered here in the way we try to come across...but I do see what you are saying... I think the problem is some folk (not naming names, JIM HELLER) are more advanced in intellect/thinking and working it all out...some premies really are taking such tentative baby steps, and you could be quite right that they feel intimidated. But not everybody is going to have the same style or be at the same place in terms of delivery. I just feel there's plenty of touchy feely warm types here on the forum to balance out the BIG MEANIE JIM HELLERS (did I say that) In all seriousness, Jim's style is needed here too. He's not afraid, and I admire that courage. As premies we were so programmed to be little weenies, little sheep. SO I admire someone with a big ego, a big voice, like Jim. Hell, we weren't even supposed to have egos at all in the GM trip, in essence we submitted to a mass lobotomy--what a disgrace. I do know what you mean about this format not being great for conflict resolution. It's very flat, it's hard to read peoples' affects, motives, expressions, hard to enter into the fray. I find it disconcerting not to even know if people are male or female. It's a little one-dimensional that way. But I still love it. 'Go forum, rah rah!' So explain to me more about your experiment, I'm listening. Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 12, 1998 at 20:41:11 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: Yes, I'm with you Message: Thou shalt not excessively annoy the other members; and Thou shalt not be too easily annoyed by the other members. Ok, Ji, I see what you're saying and thank you for it. Yes, there have been times when my very reasonable, well-tempered patience has been tried beyond all mercy by premies' specious, precious pish-pish 'arguments', if you will. And I've also been vexed by new age post-rational, extra-rational, sub-rational one-time premies purposely trying to get my goat, yes I have, yes I have. But, really, what can we do about it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 13, 1998 at 13:00:26 (EST)
From: And On Anand Ji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: Jim Subject: Yes, I'm with you Message: Aoa: Thou shalt not excessively annoy the other members; and Thou shalt not be too easily annoyed by the other members. Jim: Ok, Ji, I see what you're saying and thank you for it. Yes, there have been times when my very reasonable, well-tempered patience has been tried beyond all mercy by premies' specious, precious pish-pish 'arguments', if you will. And I've also been vexed by new age post-rational, extra-rational, sub-rational one-time premies purposely trying to get my goat, yes I have, yes I have. But, really, what can we do about it? You're welcome, Jim. I WOULD ADVOCATE anonymous, but consistent identification of participants of the Forum. People know how to use Rocketmail to gain a more or less anonymous e-mail account; now let them apply here for membership using such an account as the return address -- or, of course, using their primary (real) e-mail address. Once it becomes fluid and easy to login as a member with a standard identifier, it then becomes possible for the software to assist in quieting a really noxious voice -- they call it the bozo filter on some systems. You can put their anonymous-but-consistent userid on a list of names you do not wish to read originations from. This won't filter by message content; it filters by message heading (userid). So if someone quotes their words, you'll still see that much. I find when a system has these tools in place, I rarely need to use them -- I believe it is a deterrent to abusive posting just to have them in place -- people know they can be tuned-out very easily, if anyone is motivated to tune them out. They then have to resort to spoofing a new userid, to circumvent the lock. It creates a certain speedbump against the inertia of thoughtlessness. :) There are lots of evolved tools for conferencing that work; one of them is a simple slogan that I think means a lot: 'Tools, not rules.' This to me means if we have lots of good conferencing tools that work, we don't need to rely on an excessive number of social etiquette rules to do the work of the tools. There is a social contract, but without a pretty-good conferencing platform, the contract tends to fall apart. WE HAVE A VIABLE ONLINE COMMUNITY here that needs nurturing; this need is more important than the individual's need to ride roughshod on any theme or person they want to (with little or no personal editorial discretion exercised and with no tool to filter them). Nobody's immune to having their goat got, IMO. The way ex-premie.org does its conferencing, user accounts and ID's would be fairly straightforward -- the server is told not to deliver any document from the secure document directories unless a userid and password are given -- they are good for the rest of that session. Apache and the other popular web servers all support this function, as do the web browsers. Administration of accounts could be shared; four or five people could volunteer to do the necessaries, providing the Webmaster with a weekly list of new userid's and passwords requested. Knowing the instant-gratification urge on the Internet, I'm sure all would want it faster than that, but I've seen a two-month waiting list (for a new account) on a system that constantly has more traffic than it can handle -- institution of user accounts would also limit the number of hits on the website, and thus increase throughput for active participants (and it is selective: only the Forum URL's would be thus limited; the static content would remain open to all comers). These are just some thoughts -- they have consequences that need to be talked out, even if they're strongly supported. They create work for other people, which is unfortunately unpaid labor! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 13, 1998 at 13:46:42 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: No, you've lost me Message: Aoaj, Thanks for your answer. I'm still unclear, however, on what problem this proposed structure would fix. There are two kinds of 'flaming' we've seen here. One is from usually-unidentified fiends who harrass by threat, impersonation or attempts to simply gum up the page with large, no-content posts. In each instance, Katie and Brian have been able to manage the problem easily enough; they simply block the person's ISP and that's that. It seems to have worked so far. The other kind of 'flaming' people talk about once in a while has is the kind I'm often accused of, namely, disrespect and ridicule. For example, when people avoid rationality here, I have at times ridiculed them for that, especially when they were espousing a higher form (read 'non-existant') of rationality than that enjoyed my us commoners. Or, much more frequently, many of us here ridicule premies, the premie mindset (particularly its current evasiveness) and, of course, the jerk that got us into this mess to begin with. Does your identification scheme relate to this somehow? Personally, as you know, I don't think there's any problem at all in this regard. This forum is a welcome relief, if not antidote, to the kind of suppressed mentality we lived with all our time in the cult. Check out ELK for a reminder. So what exactly are you hoping to improve content-wise? You asked Helen why so many ex's lurk rather than post. I think there are a bunch of reasons. They're either undecided about Maharaji and don't want to publically commit themselves one way or the other. They're afraid of ostracism by the premies they're still friends with (or married to, or children of). Or maybe they're just content to read and follow the discussion from time to time. I don't know. What's YOUR theory? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 13, 1998 at 14:21:26 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: speed bumps Message: AOA: RE: It creates a certain speedbump against the inertia of thoughtlessness. :) As long as it doesn't damage my suspension. Sometimes one just has to roar. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 13, 1998 at 17:46:35 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: Yes, I'm with you Message: 'You can put their anonymous-but-consistent userid on a list of names you do not wish to read originations from.' Maybe I misunderstand what you are saying, but if I don't want to read a message from someone, I don't click on it. :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 11:36:36 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: VP Subject: Maharaji and miracles Message: The answer I got about Maharaji and miracles, is what I read in the scriptures, where Jesus said, 'To this generation, there will be given no sign'. I interpreted that to mean that our generation was the generation that Jesus was talking about, so it was understandable that Maharaji wouldn't be performing any miracles. Besides, wasn't the miracle supposed to be Knowledge itself, 'The blind see', which was divine light, 'The deaf hear', which was divine music? I can't believe the way I thought and reasoned at this time in my life. Every break I could give M to prove himself, I gave him, and he still failed to prove himself. What a fucking loser (him and me both I suppose). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 17:04:29 (EST)
From: Larkin Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: R.E.S.P.E.C.T! Message: Quiet please, the lord has spoken, All he wants is more devotion, Send your love, or just a token Sign that cheque today First he's soothing, now he's raving Premies stop your misbehaving Are you drowning, or just waving? (send it off today) Quiet please, the lord is spouting, First he's smiling, now he's shouting, Let's have no more room for doubting The kingdom's on its way R.E.S.P.E.C.T. Respect yourself? - no, respect me! Here's my toes, now kissamee (and sign that cheque today) Quiet please, the lord's investing, But fear not - he's still the best thing Since sliced bread; he's only testing What our concepts tell us. For doubt might say 'he's not the lord, He's just some avaricious fraud, Insatiable for life's rewards With crappy goods to sell us. But one day when the lord's a-croaking (Too much fine food, too much smoking Too much wine and too much toking) Who will lead the way? Guru Prem, or Guru Wadi? Guri Big-Ears? Guru Noddy? Or will this wretched, stinking, shoddy Cult just fade away? Quiet please, the lard is talking, Hokum peddling, humbug hawking, Brandy guzzling, gopi porking, (Yet divine, they say) Pardon me for being rude I think it needs be understood Why Mr Rawat and his brood Can rip 'em off this way. It's when you let some 'inner feeling' Cloud your judgement, set you reeling, It's your rational mind he's stealing - Get out right away! RESPECT YOURSELF, respect your life, Your lovers, friends, your husband, wife Devotion just brings pain and strife That's my 'thought for the day'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 17:20:48 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Larkin Subject: Author, Author....(nt) Message: B.E.A.U.T.I.F.U.L! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 17:27:47 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Mike Subject: It reminds me of... Message: ...Miss Ree's (Aretha's) other classic: 'THINK'! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 18:00:41 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Larkin Subject: R.E.S.P.E.C.T! Message: Larkin, that was great. Maybe you should teach song-writing classes. But this line: Are you drowning, or just waving? Isn't that line from a Stevie Smith poem, I think called 'Not Waving But Drowning?' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 18:05:20 (EST)
From: larkin Email: None To: JW Subject: R.E.S.P.E.C.T! Message: Yes. I didn't steal it, of course. It was - ahem - a reference. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 18:42:01 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: larkin Subject: R.E.S.P.E.C.T! Message: No, I wasn't suggesting you stole it. I always thought it was a great poem. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 18:53:18 (EST)
From: david m Email: None To: larkin Subject: R.E.S.P.E.C.T! Message: Hey great stuff..brings up alot of questions eahhhh.....david Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 19:04:44 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: david m Subject: to david m (OT) Message: Hi David - Got the LOTU video back - thank you. Would appreciate any comments on this forum! Thanks, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 11:31:28 (EST)
From: david m Email: None To: Katie Subject: to Katie (OT) Message: Hey Katie... Just watched the Lord Of The Universe...again and it really is ;mindblowing..... how caught up in the whole trip of guru M.....I was along with thousands of others back in 1973..but you know what i really thought there would be hundreds of thousands after that major event ha ha ha...I think the best part was when the big M was holding his press confrence..He really looked uncomfortable and this wisecracker had to speak up for him a couple of times that was one side i never saw of the god like child guru..man was i insulated in service of the lord...but some how i did feel extreme love for all the premies andgreat friends i made during my stay with DLM man were we blinded by the light... just a few thoughts...peace david p.s. Thanks again that was nice of you to send me the video... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 04:55:46 (EST)
From: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: Larkin Subject: R.E.S.P.E.C.T! Message: In your post of Nov 5 17:04:29 you write: 'Guri Big-Ears? Guru Noddy? Or will this wretched, stinking, shoddy Cult just fade away?' [laughter heard in Connecticut] Great post, Larkin -- I'm glad I slowed down long enough to enjoy and read it fully. Who's Noddy? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 17:51:52 (EST)
From: larkin Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: R.E.S.P.E.C.T! Message: Noddy (and his friend Big Ears) are just these characters from the children's books by Enid Blighton. I'd have rather used Guru Teletubby, but it didn;t rhyme. Hey, AOAJi - very long time no see! How's it going? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 09:51:49 (EST)
From: AJW Email: None To: Larkin Subject: R.E.S.P.E.C.T! Message: Hi there Larkin loved your barkin' and your words of rhyme. I was conned too, by the guru, but now I'm feeling fime. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 13:42:09 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Larkin Subject: R.E.S.P.E.C.T! Message: Dear Larkin, I am proud to know you! Thanks. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 14:41:39 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Larkin Subject: Poetry Message: You got it all going on, Larkin! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 15:34:40 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Bruce's short-circuited mind Message: Bruce posted this to Golden Oldie on the uncensored premie page and I thought I'd clip the whole dman thing and reply to it here. Dear Golden Oldie, (Eliott?) I see that you are having a discussion with Jim Heller over on ex.files. That's good, Bruce. 'Ex-files'. How ironic as my band's name is the 'X-Flies'. Thank you for that. I remember having a similar interrogation regarding BBJ and friends from Jim some time back. Its interesting to see Jim's method in action from the sideline. It would be interesting, likewise, for someone to read over how you conducted yourself throughout our exchanges. As I said then, you were shamelessly evasive and cowardly. Do you recall? Well, more on that in a moment. The reason I asked for your identity is that I am well aware of the methods used by some of the diehards at ex.files, like pretending to be premies (ie someone at least respectful of Maharaji), like using flattery to get you in, to lure people into their quicksand of negativity. When has an ex ever impersonated a premie? Bruce, I find that notion appalling and unthinkable. I went as a monk on Hallowe'en and that was fun. But the prospect of putting on the old brown, polyester double-knit suit that HQ sent me in the seventies, and covering it with giant buttons of Maharaji and the Gang of Four, and stuffing my pockets with leaflets and zoning out in that famous, fixed, forced stare and smile -- that's disgusting! That's a low blow, Bruce. I'm deeply, deeply hurt. Even this website, proclaiming to be for friends of Maharaji, was originally created by a person opposed to Maharaji, for reasons no doubt quite contrary to those purported.. No one ever hid that fact. David, in a moment of misguided compassion reached out to you guys who were, until the EnjoyingLife Site opened, deprived of an internet presence you could call your own. David does shit like that. What can I tell you? I certainly can't control him. The fact is, it is/was a forum for your gurunoids to discuss life in your mental prison. Too bad no one took advantage of it. And who the fuck cares, by the way, if people like me cut and paste from there and ridicule your stupidity here? No one's forcing you to come here to our vile patch of quicksand, are they? The fact remains, that paltry site is still the only place on the net you guys can talk about things. The 'conversations' page on the EL site isn't operational and, for my money, never will be. Obvious reasons, no? You're going to always get guys like GO popping up now and then with a few critical comments about the Lard. Maharaji won't tolerate that and that's that. Anyway, I thought maybe you were one of these guys up to the usual tricks. Wow! Are you questioning our SINCERITY? Holy Mackeral! I think Jim's argument about BBJ is intellectually flawed. As it is well known and documented, at least by us, that mom and the boys knew and accepted that Maharaji was the Master from the beginning, and so now their proclamation of BBJ as master is self contradictory. End of argument in my book. That's the END of the argument? You idiot. That's the BEGINNING of a valid inquiry. First, don't forget, Maharaji's authenticity was a thousand per cent non-starter without the family's endorsement. If Mata Ji had not gone with the program back then do you think for a moment you'd be kissing that fat slug's feet? Of course not. Then, for whatever reason, MJ, BBJ and the imbecile BJ take it all back. Why, you must ask yourself. Do you really know why? No, Bruce, you stupid, stupid fool, you can only guess. Hey, maybe you're right. Maybe they only did so out of darkness and weakness. But, jerk, maybe not. The point is you don't know. Ha! YOU DON'T KNOW!!!! And 'closing your book', in this case, simply means you don't want to find out. A little shy here, aren't we? I received Knowledge about the same time as you. I've had my ups and downs, but what always has clarified things for me is Maharaji's presence. There's nothing like it. Its perfectly obvious he's got the goods. There's no need for discussion about his 'credentials' then. Funny, how Maharaji and Shri Hans have gone on at length about that very subject then, isn't it? The credentials of the Hamster and all that? For example, Bruce, how do you even know there is such a thing as a Hamster? Is there ever more than one Hamster alive at a time? Have there been Hamsters in the past? How did Maharaji become a Hamster? Will there be a Hamster after him? Will he always be a Hamster? How'd his Hamster become a Hamster? Can a Hamster also be a Snake? If the Hamster's a snake, does that make you a little rabbit? There are all sorts of questions that you've had, discussions you've partaken of, etc. regarding his 'credentials'. You're hiding, Bruce. Hiding and lying to yourself and others. Do you really think GO wil fall for your shit? Hmm, maybe he will. Well, we'll see, won't we? Really, if you've just spent some amazing time around him the idea that his authenticity is up for debate is just ludicrous! Shri Hans was a pretender to the throne just like BBJ is today. Are you sure that your inner mounting flame can only prick up for Maharaji's greasy face? Maybe you're more of a guru slut than you think, Bruce. Why not make the rounds and see what else works for you? When was the last time you lined up to kiss BBJ's feet? When was the last time you got 'shakti pat' from Guru Mayi? Hey, man, you only live once. Your point about Maharaji's 'non addressing of these peoples grievances causing their anger' is one which might sound fine, and is easy to buy into, I guess. However.a lot of people, including myself, have made attempts to discuss these issues with those claiming to have 'grievances,' to no avail. You are the stupidest fuck I've dealt with all day. First, numbskull, the issue is Maharaji's avoidance of these issues, not your own completely worthless commentary on them. Second, you can't say you've discussed anythnig unless you've responded truthfully and unevasively to whatever hard questions came your way. You never did that nor has your cowardly master. What, are you really that stupid? Honestly? The impression I've arrived at is that the chief protaganists at ex.files enjoy the war they have declared, like the extremists of any conflict, and are far more interested in procuring new recruits to their cause than actually resolving anything positively with Maharaji. Well, we'll never know unless and until Maharaji joins in, will we? If I keep bugging you to return the bag I left in the trunk of your car and you never do, you can't exaclt say that there's no use returning it because you're completely sure that wouldn't appease me. First, it's my bag and you have no right holding on to it. Second, you have to do your part first before you can argue that. In this case, Maharaji owes me and everyone an accounting of his tenure -- at least during the period I was involved with him. That's my bag, man, and I keep phoning but he's never there. If he returns it, only then can we discuss whether that's enough. Bottom line: M has no excuse for holding out. The one you're trying to paste on his fat ass won't cover it. Im willing to bet that if Maharaji did actually write to for example to Jim Heller , his letter would straight away be posted up and subjected to leers and derision, like other genuine and concerned posts by premies have been. So what? I don't get it. What's your point? Surely you're trying to say something here. Sorry, the point's lost on me. Care to try again? I don't know about you, but I wouldn't be interested in making any concessions to someone who's aim was to publicly insult and discredit me and my family. I don't see why Maharaji would either. I emboldened this quote of yours because its so important. You've just tipped your hand, fool. You're here admitting that you've never been honest in your discussion of Maharaji but rather consider the facts and historical record to be material for negotiation. You're despicable, Bruce. Really, put me in touch with your kids if you have any. They would be so ashamed of their father if they really knew how fearful he was. Anyway, for the handful of people loudly proclaimimg grievances arising from situations in the past, there are many more who experienced the exact same situations, and look back with fond memories. Good point. You win, I guess. Wait -- I just thought of something. What about all the people who no longer beleive in Maharaji? Do you honestly think he's kept anywhere more than 20 per cent tops? Sorry, you lose again. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 17:36:49 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Bruce & Whoever Subject: It isn't obvious, at all Message: Bruce: You made the comment that 'it was obvious that HE has the goods.' WRONG... It isn't obvious, at all! After proclaiming in the book, 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji' that he could 'show you god,' he hasn't done so for anyone. Tell me Bruce, who is fully-realized, YOU? I think NOT! Unless you are fully-realized, you know not of what you speak. You are parroting anything and everything that is spoon fed to you by the superior-hamster-in-person. If there is a SINGLE fully-realized soul, that was made so by M, tell me his/her name and I will speak with them for he/she will be an AUTHORITY.... YOU ARE NOT! Now, as to HIS credentials: Shri Hans said that you would know the satguru by his ability to show you god, instantaneously. M hasn't, so he isn't... Get the picture? By Shri Hans' own words, M is condemned. M is a F.R.A.U.D. How many other ways does it need to be said, eh? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 05:37:34 (EST)
From: And On Anand Ji Email: aoa To: Jim Subject: Bruce's short-circuited mind Message: In your post of Nov. 5 15:34:40 you write: 'No one's forcing you to come here to our vile patch of quicksand . . .' [Great line! hehe] Nobody forced us to go to satsang or kiss his feet, either. Yet I wouldn't say he was not culpable. Repeatedly he told us we'd be passing on the opportunity of a lifetime -- the shark satsang -- if we didn't continue on 'this' (read: his) path. It's a form of coercion. These chances are never repeated! That cup of coffee that is going to end up in the toilet -- and one day, your life is going to end up in the toilet. . .' --In reference to getting up and going for a cup of coffee during his satsang -- Webster's 1913 indicates well: 'Coercion \Co*er'cion\, n. [L. coercio, fr. coercere. See {Coerce}.] 1. The act or process of coercing. 2. (Law) The application to another of either physical or moral force.' [there's more] I'd guess there's some moral force at work here to defend a given viewpoint; the force comes from the visibility of the Internet and this web site (this site is undenyably in the public eye). -- Cult Fiction. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 11:27:45 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: You gotta read this Message: Here's GO's reply to Bruce: 'Hi Bruce Bruce said'Even this website, proclaiming to be for friends of Maharaji, was originally created by a person opposed to Maharaji, for reasons no doubt quite contrary to those purported.. Anyway, I thought maybe you were one of these guys up to the usual tricks. ' Well I don't agree. I really don't think this site was set up for devicive reasons. Let's just agree to differ on this. Why do you think that hardly any premies post here? Bruce said'I think Jim's argument about BBJ is intellectually flawed. ' Jim just wants to know why both Maharaji and BBJ are denying their pasts..... don't you want to know? Bruce said'As it is well known and documented, at least by us, that mom and the boys knew and accepted that Maharaji was the Master from the beginning, and so now their proclamation of BBJ as master is self contradictory. End of argument in my book.' In the case of bbj he has actually revised history(i.e. lied), according to his devotee's web site. In Maharaji's case I haven't heard him say anything on the subject for donkey's years. HOWEVER I do know that aspirant's are lied to. E.G. About 1991/2 I was on a psychotherapy course with about 20 other people. A couple of people were aspirants. Over lunch I was casually talking with one and was talking about the early years in India, (not in particular about BBJ )about how Maharaji was crowned and the big procession in Delhi etc. Anyway the following month when we met again, she told me that Belkis said that it all did not happen. Belkis also said that she didn't know who I was...which is interesting since I knew her very well for many years and lived in the same ashram until they became segregated in the UK. ......so I showed the aspirant Satguru has come. Bruce said''Your point about Maharaji's 'non addressing of these peoples grievances causing their anger' is one which might sound fine, and is easy to buy into, I guess. However.a lot of people, including myself, have made attempts to discuss these issues with those claiming to have 'grievances,' to no avail. ' Firstly, I know many premies have the same grievances......but won't say it. For example the stuff about Jagdeo. there is a journey's entry in the ex forum by AJW who metions this that all the teachers knew about Jagdeo in the early 70s. Why was it not announced????? I was really annoyed at reading that because I knew AJ well and regularly went to his flat for 'community satsang'. How come I never knew? How come noone made a fuss? What type of parent could keep quite about this? I was around then and never even heard a whisper about it. I treated jagdeo like a king (especially since he said he was the reincarnation of a past perfect master). All the premies really reverred him. Why hasn't Maharaji addressed this????? (Bruce these are not questions to you, they are to Maharaji) Bruce said'Im willing to bet that if Maharaji did actually write to for example to Jim Heller , his letter would straight away be posted up and subjected to leers and derision, like other genuine and concerned posts by premies have been. ' I'm sure Jim would share it and some would leer and some would not....but that happens in anything discussed publicly. Bruce said'Anyway, for the handful of people loudly proclaimimg grievances arising from situations in the past, there are many more who experienced the exact same situations, and look back with fond memories. ' I've not seen many of the 'exs' deny that were good times. JSCA Goldie' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 11:49:15 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: And this Message: And here's Bruce's follow up to GO: 'Dear Goldie, Probably one reason why premies don't post here much is because they don't really want to get into criticising and finding fault with Maharaji and/or other premies. That is the function of ex.files. [And the alternative to criticising is what, Bruce? Accepting uncritically? If you don't want to 'find' fault, does that mean that when 'fault' is staring you in the face you'll finally admit it or... tell me about this, Bruce. Tell me why this DOESN'T sound like some sort of cult, 'kay?] While you are not abusing me and calling me names, you do sound rather like the folks over there. [How's that, Bruce? Because GO isn't acting like a classic cult ostrich?] In regards your incident involving Belkis, I think you should check with her and get her side of the story, and maybe an explanation of what really went down with your aspirant friend. It sounds a bit unbelievable to me. I can't imagine denying anything that historically happened if an aspirant asked me. [Bruce, if an aspirant asked you if Maharaji ever promised to bring peace to the whole world, what would you tell him? What if he asked you if Maharaji ever claimed to be the Lord of all Creation come in human form (like in his intro to And it is Divine in which he says, amongst other things: There has never been a time when the Lord of Creation did not manifest Himself in human form, and come to this planet Earth to do away with evil and spread the True Knowledge. .... Divine Light Mission wants to bring world peace by sharing the Knowledge which is within us by the grace of Almighty Lord.) What would you tell him?] Still, it illustrates something Maharaji said once: 'whenever premies do something stupid, its me who has to wear the blame. So much for the theory of Karma.' (laughs) [Funny, I thought it was the other way around. Maharaji promises to bring peace to the world and and the premies wear it as some sort of premie-generated extremism. So much for the theory of truth and accountability. ] I don't think Maharaji is denying his past. What I do think is that he is doing whatever he can to keep people focussed on the core issue of Knowledge. There is always going to be people and things which piss us off, both within and outside of EV.' [Bruce, this is really sad. You can't say whether Maharaji is denying his past or not -- only whether you THINK he is -- because the fact is Maharaji is avoiding any discussion of his past. That's the simple truth. The way he's going, if he has his way, he will spend his entire life without ever answering a single challenging question about statements such as: Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru Maharj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destroyer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth ...... And you, you sorry excuse for an adult, try to cover for him on the absurd basis that he's just trying to 'keep people focused'. Pathetic, Bruce.] Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 14:04:30 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Go, GO, go!!! Message: Here's Golden Oldie's reply, then, to Bruce: 'Bruce Hi, Bruce said'Probably one reason why premies don't post here much is because they don't really want to get into criticising and finding fault with Maharaji and/or other premies. That is the function of ex.files. ' So do you like the enjoying-life forum where everything is controlled? Bruce said'While you are not abusing me and calling me names, you do sound rather like the folks over there.' There are plenty of folks 'over there', who as far as I can see relate in their own individual ways. I think you find it too direct. Personally I see it as a chance to check myself out and meet some real people, you know...that's how I used to feel around premies. Most of the premies(not all ) I know are too guarded in their speech to give an honest response in conversations. 'Bad vibes' often serve a purpose, just like a toothache or a pain tells you there is something wrong with your body. Bruce said'In regards your incident involving Belkis, I think you should check with her and get her side of the story, and maybe an explanation of what really went down with your aspirant friend. It sounds a bit unbelievable to me. ' The Belkis story is one of many that have happened, particularly since the mid-80s, not only to me by any means. Bruce said'I can't imagine denying anything that historically happened if an aspirant asked me. ' I'm glad. Bruce said'Still, it illustrates something Maharaji said once: 'whenever premies do something stupid, its me who has to wear the blame. So much for the theory of Karma.' (laughs) ' Well why doesn't he address the issues when he is being misrepresented?You know like he used to. Before we knew about the family split he said publicly something like 'There is going to come some opposition, and it's will come from those that you don't expect it to', then he says 'there is only one source of agya'.....'not Mataji..'. (I think it was Guru Puja 74...I'm not sure exactly but I have it on a tape..somewhere) Bruce said'I don't think Maharaji is denying his past......' Silence just leads people to more speculation(mind), taking them away from Knowledge. Bruce there have been too many casualties. This is not about a fight between premies and 'exs'. GO' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 16:40:11 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: all Subject: Golden words Message: I posted this on the premie site but wanted to post it here as well. Golden Oldie said: There have been too many casualties. This is not about a fight between premies and 'exs'. Now THAT ought to be engraved in stone and put somewhere on all three web sites. Thanks, Golden. Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 20:53:43 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Katie Subject: Golden words Message: i agree. Goldie is one honest dude. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 11:35:02 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Go for it, Mrs. Benson! Message: This is courtesy of Al Aronowitz, the Blacklisted Journalist: They're interviewing Neil Armstrong and the interviewer says, 'How did you ever come up with that wonderful line about 'a giant step for mankind'? Was that yours?' 'Well, sorta,' Neil Armstrong replies. 'The boys down at NASA and I, we sorta cobbled it together. But it was not my first choice. My first choice was 'Go for it, Mrs. Benson!' 'Well, how does that relate?' the interviewer asks. 'Where does that come in?' 'When I was a kid back in Indiana,' Neil answers, 'on the summer nights, I'd be on my sleeping porch, which was about eight feet from the Bensons' bedroom window. And many a night I heard Mrs. Benson say, 'They'll put a man on the moon before I take that thing in my mouth!'' -------------------------------------------- Al Aronowitz's site has some truly amazing articles for those interested in first person chronicles of stars and origins of the music world as well as some truly stimulating, intelligent writing on other themes. Former pop columnist for the New York Post, Al introduced Dylan to the Beatles and was the first to turn the Beatles on to grass. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 17:39:00 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Bobby Subject: Go for it, Mrs. Benson! Message: Funny! Thanks, I bookmarked the site. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 18:47:49 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Selene Subject: Go for it, Mrs. Benson! Message: You're welcome Selene. Glad you appreciated the joke. Aronowitz's stuff is some of the best reading on the web IMO Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 20:10:07 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Bobby Subject: Go for it, Mrs. Benson! Message: Bobby, Thanks for the funny joke. I needed a laugh today. I forwarded it to several people. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 23:34:40 (EST)
From: b Ji Email: None To: VP Subject: Go for it, Mrs. Benson! Message: HI Bobby, good one, those pilots were nasty boys from the stories I have heard. I went to a reunion at the naval test pilot school in 1970 with my dad and alumni were treated to speeches by Neil and Buzz aldrin. I got thier autographs somewhere. The first two men on the moon. I'm waiting to see if another manned flight gets off the ground so that John Glenn wont be the first and last man in space as someone (with no credentials) predicted. You know Bobby, I am thinking lately that I still see reasons to say that there appears to be a self aware part of the intelligence that exists and can play a part, but any organized explanations about life and it's possible nature are visably flawed and no one seems to have it nailed. trying to be upbeat and liking this big thing we are in. sorry about the mugging by the way. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 16:19:39 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: b Ji Subject: Watch out, Jer! Message: You know Bobby, I am thinking lately that I still see reasons to say that there appears to be a self aware part of the intelligence that exists and can play a part, but any organized explanations about life and it's possible nature are visably flawed and no one seems to have it nailed. Hey Bill, I don't know if you noticed but Jerry's been brandishing his copy of The Blind Watchmaker around like some sort of weapon and it's starting to really bug me. He claims that the ... get this, he claims that the book is the finest 'exercise in reasoning' he's ever seen, that kind of thing. He also told me he's looking for you. Something about a hood ornament, I think. Anyway, don't want to cause any trouble or anything. Just thought you should know. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 21:10:24 (EST)
From: Devils Advocate Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Knowledge figures for 1998 Message: Excerpt from 'Enjoying Knowledge' site.... A look at the Knowledge figures for 1998 to date Following Maharaji's recent visit to Japan in October, the total number of people to have received Knowledge from him to date this year is 9,244. The year started with a Knowledge session for 121 unwary people in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, in March. That same month 25 Japanese people succumbed to Knowledge in Tokyo; a further session for 26 unfortunates took place in Kyoto on 23 October. At the New Delhi facility before the Baisakhi festival, 7,286 naive people from the sub-continent attended two Knowledge sessions on 7 and 8 April; the former was the largest session yet with 3,656 grinning suckers. A further 382 short-sighted dullards received Knowledge when he visited both North and South America in May and July. The figures were: Montreal, 80 profoundly stupid people; Curacao in the Netherland Antilles, 102; Long Beach California, 94; and Miami Beach, 106. Also in July, sadly he gave his eldest daughter, Prem Lata, Knowledge in Malibu. After the three-day June event in the UK at the Wembley Arena, Maharaji travelled south to Rome where 199 gullible Europeans were taken in by Knowledge. In August, there were two Knowledge sessions in Africa: the first in Abidjan, Ivory Coast, with 224 mugs; the second in Accra, Ghana, with 312. Back in Europe, that same month, 356 aspiring losers received Knowledge in Brighton and 207 in Barcelona. In October, after an event in Brisbane, Maharaji used his ridiculous, purpose-built Knowledge centre at Ivory's Rock Conference Centre, venue for the Amaroo events, for a tiresome session for 101 smiley saps. All in all, in 1997 a sad total of 17,113 dupes supposedly received Knowledge from Maharaji at 21 separate sessions. With the depressing prospect of further sessions tentatively scheduled for New Delhi, Kathmandu and Mauritius in November it seems probable that this figure could be exceeded this year. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 07:48:58 (EST)
From: David L.. Email: None To: Devils Advocate Subject: the bright side Message: you have to substract from this figure the 3 persons who decided to quit after reading this site Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 18:25:39 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: David L.. Subject: the bright side Message: ...and what about those 'knowledge-session' addicts, those bongos who like to sneak in for a second crack - that'd fiddle the numbers a bit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 16:12:09 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Everyone Subject: Tell Everyone! Message: Hi Kids, I received this request this morning from a friend of a friend. Please distribute this to everyone (on earth, that is) you know. When John Glenn returns from space, everybody dress in ape suits. You have 6 days in which to bury the Statue of Liberty up to her head. EVERYBODY HURRY ! ! ! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 17:50:15 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: HA! Message: That would be a mean trick to play on our hero John! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Nov 05, 1998 at 09:46:14 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Tell Everyone! Message: MP: You are a sick, sick faddah, faddah! Remember, our goal is for people to USE their minds, not lose them.... he he he he! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |