Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 3 | |
From: Apr 15, 1998 |
To: Apr 21, 1998 |
Page: 1 Of: 5 |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 16:52:02 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: What I think of Jim Message: Since you asked Scott, and others might be curious, I don't have anything personal against Jim. He certainly has badmouthed me and hurled plenty of uncalled for insults. I let him slide. It just weakons his own credibility. He has insulted a wide range of people, some deserving and most not. Jim acts like a bully-whimp on this forum and goes for cheap shots. His training as a lawyer has given his ego a boost that he abuses. He seems quite intelligent and usually is honest unless he really wants to win. At times Jim certainly is eloquent and can be witty. He does have valid points and interesting stuff that he mixes up with rumour, BS and debate posturing filler. I give Jim credit for starting the forum. I have 'met' quite a few interesting people because of it. There have been interesting discussions and it has been a learning experience for me. The thing that really concerns me is whether Jim can outdo me on an electric guitar solo -g! I wouldn't have a problem meeting the guy. As far as you go, Scott, I don't have the time for a lengthy detailed debate on academic issues. You sound like an interesting person and if I had more time I might enjoy a heady discussion. M attracted a diverse, interesting and colorful crowd! We have all benefited. Regards, CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 17:06:07 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: CD Subject: Off topic Message: CD: Can't match you on guitar, I'm afraid. I left mine in the Kingston, Jamaica ashram in 1974. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 17:41:50 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Off topic Message: >Can't match you on guitar, I'm afraid. I left mine in the Kingston, Jamaica ashram in 1974. Scott, I gave away the 018 Martin that I played in the streets of Europe in 1972 and also a Rickenbacher 12 string. The Jamaica ashram doesn't sound all that bad. But they probably didn't let you smoke, did they - g? It should be interesting returning to London in June for the Wembley event. London is where I went to my K session after hitchhiking there. The Anand Band was playing every night. I gave out leaflets in the tube with a little bit of guitar playing. Do you have a new email? Regards, CD webmaster@cdickey.com Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 17:28:16 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: What I think of Jim Message: Chris, You said 'interesting' five times. You said I've made some 'valid' points and even that some of my 'victims' 'deserve' some heat. You say you've learned some things here. Can you see why I fault you for being a little vague? Jim Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 17:45:24 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Jim Subject: What I think of Jim Message: >Can you see why I fault you for being a little vague? Hey, I gave you some positive credit. Accept it - g! You don't just fault me, you swear and foam a lot! CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 18:37:09 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: CD Subject: What I think of Jim Message: Between you and me (whispers in CD's ear) I almost agree with almost everything you almost said. vacol......ssssshhhh! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 19:49:02 (EDT)
From: Bruce Email: None To: Vacol Subject: What I think of Jim Message: Dear Vacol, Avoid loud and aggressive people for they are a vexation to the spirit To me its ironical that Jim seems to be the most concerned with M. giving answers yet his own behaviour guarantees that he is one of the least likely people that M. would respond to! I have had many questions for M. over the years. Only rarely has he answered them in person , and never by letter. But my questions have always been answered. and in ways I never expected and which filled me with amazement and gratitude. I tried to talk to Jim (and anyone listening) by making an analogy with the non response of Jesus to Pilate. Jim as usual either missed my point or refused to discuss the issue. Too close to the bone I imagine. Ironically, I was banned and so I couldn't respond to John K's question to clarify my position. I'd have neither the time nor the inclination get into endless debates on the internet, especially when I am subjected to verbal abuse and scorn. Another point, did you refer to me as Petrou somewhere? That intellectual giant Scott thinks I'm Petrou, and actually had the nerve to suggest to Katie that I be banned permanently from the forum! Talk about paranoia! Its in the Mosquito repellant thread. Have you read my reply to Brian and Katie regarding my banning? Thanks again for coming to my defense. Take it easy. Bruce Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 20:10:21 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Bruce Subject: What Bruce thinks of Message: yet his own behaviour guarantees that he is one of the least likely people that M. would respond to! And to whom would Himself be likely to respond on these issues, exactly? 'Least' and 'most' implies that the probability of at least one of the scenarios within that continuum is not zero. Do you understand what I mean? -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 03:00:40 (EDT)
From: Bruce Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: What Bruce thinks of Scott Message: Scott, M. only deals with individuals, so individuals within that continuum must approach alone, in their own unique way. My experience has been that M. will only respond to me when I approach without guile and with some humility. That has not been easy for me . My so called high intelligence and extensive education have not helped much in this regard.! I think I understand you, but do you understand me? So. you've been rather on silent on my Jesus-M comparisons. How come? At least you admit that Jesus probably revealed Knowledge. What do you make of the Last Supper work of Dali? Bruce Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 08:08:22 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Bruce Subject: What Jesus thinks of Maharaji Message: It's preposterous to compare a living fraud with someone who lived 2000 years ago and express any amazement at the similarities. To base a fantasy belief on a comparison to someone you've never met is pretty bizarre, Bruce. That MJ in any way encourages this through his use of religious scripture is pure flim-flam, although he does bear certain similarities with both the tooth-fairy and leprechauns. Is it your belief that Salvadore Dali is some vital link in the imparting of great sacred Knowledge? Has anyone pointed out to you that Dali wasn't actually there, and that Jesus et al didn't actually pose for that painting? Did you really need it pointed out to you??? Had Dali painted him with a clown nose would you now be worshiping Bozo? As for approaching MJ without guile and with humility, that's pretty much how most tyrants prefer to be approached. And you'll note that it's always at the behest of the person sitting up on the throne that you're even allowed to dare to approach their divine presence. Ditto for your belief that M. only deals with individuals. He actually prefers his individuals to line up by the thousands. And so they do... bowing and scraping appropriately as they file past his feet at a trot. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 09:47:37 (EDT)
From: Bruce Email: None To: Brian Subject: What Jesus thinks of Maharaji Message: Brian, Relax and breath slowly.! I don't know if you have studied this painting. It clearly shows Jesus about to demonstrate a Knowledge technique. Sure it could be something else, sure Jesus didn't sit for Dali, but wasn't Dali creative? Isn't the creative force within us all? Can't that eternal creative force guide an artist to create something that maybe the artist is not consciously aware of? Does a bird which navigates from Siberia to Australia 'know' where its going? Sure I've never 'met' Jesus, the man. But I know his real nature. I know M's real nature too. There is where the similarity exists. Its through the practice of Knowledge and being in M's presence a lot that I understand this. If it sounds bizarre to you, fine. Its not something I would try to convince anyone of. I mentioned it to Scott because I thought he might be interested. Bruce . . Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 12:27:00 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Bruce Subject: What Jesus thinks of Maharaji Message: Bruce, This 'Jesus taught this Knowledge' line is such bunk. Every reference to light in a scripture is not a reference to K. Jesus was not a meditation teacher. You remind me of a Premie friend who thought every pop song he liked was about M, and every reference to light or music in a pop song was about K; a nice little dream world for him, but he was still mistaken in that matter. I think that Premies like to believe that Jesus taught this Knowledge in order to give their little cult some legitimacy here in the West. I've noticed that almost every Guru from the East claims Jesus as a member of their pantheon. It's simply not true. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 12:29:10 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: What Jesus thinks of Maharaji Message: omigawd, was I doing comparative religion stuff here? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 15:55:50 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: What Jesus thinks of Maharaji Message: >Premies like to believe that Jesus taught this Knowledge in order to give their little cult some legitimacy here in the West. Right. Lao Tse Buddha Krishna Socrates and many others of great repute were false prophets. Do you realize how many times the Bible has been re-translated. When wil they get it right? Which is the real one? I think Jesus would be appalled at your use of his reputation. Of course it was the intolerant mob, government and religious zealots of the time that killed him. M has stated from very early on some simple truths which are universal and have been the legacy of the great people who's names have lasted in our collective memory for hundreds of years. He has promoted a fundamental understanding of the basis of human experience and existence that fosters a feeling of unity rather than diversity. His teachings have inspired respect in me for the fundamental truths behind the myriad religions of the world. This perspective fosters tolerance, not disdain. I have great respect for the place of Jesus in history. Jesus would be overjoyed by people who seek the simplicity of Love. CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 18:33:49 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: CD Subject: What Jesus thinks of Maharaji Message: CD, You know my arguments against this 'Jesus taught this Knowledge' claim, and I have not accused Lao Tse, Krisna, the Buddha, or Socrates of being False Prophets. As far as translations of the Bible, do you really think that I have no idea that it has been translated many times and in many languages? Do you think I read the King James Version or something and I think that it fell out of the sky, leather-bound with the Words of Our Saviour printed in red ink? I am intolerant because I do not think that 'this Knowledge' (which I practiced for several years) is the basis of all religion? All I can go by are the Greek and Hebrew texts which are available. I don't spend my time explaining my understanding of Jesus' message here because I don't want to be accused of trying to convert. But I'll tell you this: Jesus taught that we are to love our neighbors as ourselves, and he was working to bring about the Reign of God. In the ROG, things are the way God wants them to be: there is no sickness, no poverty, no hunger, no abuse, no hatred. It is my experience that this is not brought about by sitting under a bedspread meditating. Love does not involve paying attention to your breath, it involves action. As I said to Mili several months ago regarding this same subject, if you want to believe that Jesus taught this Knowledge, there is really no way that I can convince you otherwise because there is no copy of 'Jesus' Lesson Plan' around. But my studies and my readings have convinced me that K and what Jesus taught are not the same thing. Michael Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 20:48:18 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: What Jesus thinks of Maharaji Message: > It is my experience that this is not brought about by sitting under a bedspread meditating. Love does not involve paying attention to your breath, it involves action. I do agree with you that positive action based on Love is a most worthwhile endeavor. I think you do a diservice to what K is by implying that it is a breath thingy. My take is that there is something inside that does take some focus to experience. Mostly just calming down the thoughts that run around in our heads and then we do experience it. That is why I liked the analogy of the lake and seeing your reflection when the ripples still. I have had that experience when all of a sudden another dimension is percieved and there is something great to experience. Whatever I call it will certainly sound odd but it is unmistakable when actually experienced. Then I do think it is important to lead a good life and manifest positive actions based on the foundation of a feeling of Love. That feeling of Love will manifest as positive actions if it is true. Regards and best wishes, CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:00:21 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: CD Subject: What Jesus thinks of Maharaji Message: Chris, I have experienced the calm of meditation, and I had some good experiences practicing K, but for me it was never as transcedent as I was led to believe it would be. I do not see it as the source of religion as so many Premies posting here seem to experience it (this is infered, I haven't actually read such a claim here). I actually experienced higher states on large doses of LSD. I'm not trying to mock your experience here, I am just stating my experience. I never experienced great love as a premie, and my experience was that most of the premies around me were in love with the idea of love, but were not experiencing it either. I have experience love within the community in which I am a member, and that is another reason that I can not accept the premise regarding Jesus and K. Regards, Michael+ Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 05:59:00 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: What Jesus thinks of Maharaji Message: Oh really? and who else is talking about divine light these days? That's right,no-one.Yet there was a lot of it going on in the Bible. Every major recorded spiritual experience since records began is filled with effulgent light references.How can you deny this?? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 20:14:00 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Bruce Subject: That was a bug Message: Another point, did you refer to me as Petrou somewhere? Vacol posted a reply to Petrou that the forum threaded as having been a reply to your post. He referred to Petrou as 'Petrou', but it appeared he was replying to your post. I think I got that fixed, but am still watching for it since it was a sporadic bug. BTW, the Forum Elves fixed the broken HTML in your post :) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 02:00:50 (EDT)
From: Bruce Email: None To: Brian Subject: Brian Message: Brian, Thanks to the forum elves. Regards, Bruce. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 21:28:37 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Bruce Subject: What I think of Jim Message: Thanks for the post Bruce, Yes I appreciate the view that ones questions to M get answered in unusual ways....well, they always have for me ...although sometimes a little patience is required. Personally I'm getting a bit sick on all this focus on Jim...and feel it is and hope it is on it's last legs. I can also empathise with your feelings of not wanting to engage in debates when abuse and insults are thrown at you . I personally would prefer calm reasoned debate but if that prooves impossible with some people then I don't mind a scrap. I don't like bullies. I shall try to take it easy Bye for now ,Vacol. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:47:00 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Bruce Subject: You guys are too much Message: Bruce, Forgive me for not replying to you earlier. I just can't stop laughing. Sorry. I'm going to try to reason with you on a very simple point. Let's see if it works, shall we? You wrote: I have had many questions for M. over the years. Only rarely has he answered them in person , and never by letter. But my questions have always been answered. and in ways I never expected and which filled me with amazement and gratitude. Bruce, do you agree that words have meaning? Good, so do I. The reason I ask is this, you say that M's answered you even when he didn't answer you. Do I have that right? In other words, no I can't do it. I can't start talking with one of these guy again. Bruce, you've stripped your gears, man. I feel a lot of pity for you, quite frankly. (By the way, THAT was not tongue-in-cheek). I started thinking for myself more or less when I left the ashram and cult at 27. I guess I was young enough to bounce back and got into using my mind again. I can't really imagine what it would be like to think and talk as you do now at your age, Bruce. I'm sure you feel that you're the lucky one. Maybe you think that you've avoided the 'trap' of the mind for so long you've finally found a life outside of it. Maybe you have, maybe you have. I DO know that people who won't abide by the fair meaning of words are impossible to argue with. They never have to admit anything. Like, a fair person would have said 'I've written M many times and sometimes I've gotten answers and sometimes I haven't'. A religious person, like yourself, might go further and say that, while M hasn't exactly answered you the way you asked, like with words or something, you feel taht he's answered you on some other level. That's fine, you can say that. But what you can't do, you poor, poor, fellow, is mix the two. You can't blur the distinction between a plain old 'answer' and your expanded definition. That's the road to nowhere. No one need be wrong so no one can be right. Newage voluntary autism. You say people here won't debate with you fairly. Bruce, you unlcuky fellow, you've completely lost your compass points. AND you've lost yourself. So, it's a gamble, right? If you're lucky, Maharaji really is God and you will probably be richly rewarded for following him. If you're not, though, Bruce.... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 00:25:52 (EDT)
From: Paula Email: None To: CD Subject: What I think of Jim Message: Well.... I can say that since I stopped reading Jim's messages... this Forum became much better to be read..... it is much more interesting to spend time on reading other people's posts.... Also... it takes me less time, because his posts are too long and most of the time, it is always the same thing: there is one Jim that attacks people... and the other Jim that is the M's victim... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 20:26:11 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Paula Subject: Now that's not very nice Message: Paula, Besides calling me a pathetic middle-aged Don Quixote or something, you've now said my posts are too long and, in any event, not worth reading because they're always either attacks on people of whimpers in the night. You obviously have a sharp eye to go along with your refreshing honesty. I'm not too old to improve so, from now on: 1) I won't attack anyone. If a premie says something I disagree with, I'll leave it to others to address. Maybe Paula can clear things up with a firmer hand and softer touch. I'll look forward to learning. 2) I won't talk about my experiences with Maharaji or Knowledge unless they're positive. After all, if you can't say something nice.. 3)I'll try to post short little notes (about what, I can't say) and will try to avoid repeating myself. I realize it's much more interesting reading other peoples' posts so I'll try not to bug you too much. I would hope, Paula, that after some time, perhaps if you hear from someone else how better I'm doing, that you'll deign to converse with me. Life will be SO much richer then. I can't wait. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 16:02:29 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Jim is a distraction Message: (with apologies to Jim) Hey, everybody! Is Jim a distraction, or what? What is the real issue here? Is it Jim? NO! It's GMJ who is a public figure and a 'movement' leader and therefore open to scrutiny. Jim is a private figure, not a cult leader or a movement leader or anything like that, so let's get back to the subject at hand, shall we? I don't want to discuss Jim anymore, sorry. VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 16:07:28 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: VP Subject: ... is a distraction Message: VP: What is the real issue here? Is it Jim? NO! It's GMJ.... Does this mean we can't talk about soup and bondage anymore either? -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 16:23:09 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: ... is a distraction Message: Scott, Hell no, I don't mind getting off of the subject for something fun and positive! I think soup and cheese are in the public domain as well, are they not? :) VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 10:28:53 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Scott T. Subject: ... is a distraction Message: Dear Scott, VP, Say it ain't so!!! Robyn I just come here for the sex talk! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 16:10:37 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: VP Subject: Thanks, VP Message: Me neither. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 17:36:15 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Jim and VP Subject: Thanks, VP Message: Thanks from me also, VP. Very eloquent and timely post. I lost a friendship with someone who used to post on the forum because we could not agree about Jim. I would not admit that Jim was evil, inhuman, etc., etc. and so forth, and would not renounce Jim as a friend. This person could not accept this, so we are not friends any more. This person had a lot to add to the forum, in my opinion, but couldn't participate because Jim brought out an incredible, and in my view, misplaced, anger in him. I hope others don't fall into this trap. Jim is just a person like the rest of us. He is NOT the Antichrist, the devil in disguise, the childhood bully from your nightmares, or whatever people want to project on him. He is a person, and has the same feelings and thoughts as the rest of us do. I don't think he enjoys being called all these names that people have been labelling him with. Jim and I had a fight once via e-mail and he called me and spoke to me on the phone. It really helped me understand Jim as a person. I recommend to anyone who wants to denounce Jim that they speak to him on the phone, or in person, first. He is NOT what you think. He likes to get in people's faces, and he likes to argue. Sometimes I think he goes a bit too far, but that's just my opinion. I honestly believe that Jim is a good person. Anyway, as VP says, the topic of this forum is Maharaji (and anything and everything related to him), NOT Jim Heller. If the premie wish to set up an anti-Jim forum, then go ahead. In the meantime, I'd prefer not to have to discuss Jim as though he was the spiritual leader of the ex-premies. I think Jim will agree with me in saying that he has never intended to set himself up as an anti-Maharaji who is followed by all the ex-premies, and I will resist all attempts by premies to make him into such a symbol. Jim is a fellow human being, and IMHO should be treated as such. When Maharaji admits that he's a fellow human being, I will treat him likewise. Regards to all, from Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 18:12:32 (EDT)
From: Katie slightly off topic Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: all Subject: earthworms and rednecks Message: In the past day or two, someone has used the phrases 'earthworm' and 'redneck' to insult Jim. I object to both of these phrases being used as insults on the following grounds. First, as a soil scientist, and as a dedicated gardener, I know that earthworms are beneficial. In fact, one of the signs of an infertile soil is that it will not have any earthworms in it. Thus I don't consider 'earthworm' an insult. In fact, I'd consider it a compliment. Second, regarding 'rednecks'. All rednecks are not bad. I work with a lot of people who would probably classify themselves as rednecks. I think one could fairly say that my little brother is a redneck. He works outside with a cap on and has a red neck at the end of the day. Although he used to be a long-haired hippie, his political leanings are now quite conservative . I doubt if his and Jim's politics intersect at any significant points. I love my brother despite his 'redneck' tendencies, and I'd appreciate it if that phrase wasn't used as an insult. Thanks, Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 19:03:28 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: And you, Katie Message: Katie, Isn't it bizarre that you would even have to comment as you have? Really, where some of the premies have tried to drag this discussion is so funny...funny and sad. I fight for one simple thing here -- fair, honest discussion. Anyone who says I don't honour that principle is more than welcome to prove the point. But, alas, that's just more 'Jim' shit. Sometimes I like attention here, like when I think I've been a bit witty or, once or twice, marginally profound (yes, I think I've hit the lower rungs of that ladder once or twice. Personally, I think others here have contributed much more than me in that respect over the many months we've been doing this.) Normally, though, I'm just into clear discussion. Now that's a bit of a ruse, I guess, in that I know the premies can't meet that standard. So, I like to watch them 'try'. What does that make me? A sadist? Masochist maybe? An unsolicited exit counsellor? God, there's just more of that 'Jim' shit! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 19:54:58 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Jim and all Subject: holding James accountable Message: James, my dear Boy, you are just so full of It aren't you .....clear and honest discussion ....you make me .....laugh and cry.....you're brand of honesty is ,'all debate must be conducted on Your terms ...your standards....your interpretation of facts .....your perspective of what is reasonable , logical and so on ....in fact ....it sounds like the 'GOSPEL ACCORDING TO JAMES'. You loud-mouth Premies and Especially Maharaji for not being held accountable for their actions and I say to the forum people ......when has Guru Jimji been held accountable for his actions ......or should we say 'words' ....which can be as destructive as actions , as they incite and influence so many. Sorry ...but I don't buy into this ....Jims really a nice guy underneath crap.....everyone is nice underneath! I would enjoy a real debate with Jim if he were not so damn arrogant and cock-sure of himself and showed a little respect to those who happen to think differently to him. A little humility goes a long way.....and all I see with Jim is that when he feels a little brow-beaten he puts on a pathetic ....'but Jim did'nt mean it ....Jim is really only playing around a bit and trying to be honest.....' Crap!!!!! Look in the mirror Jim and ask yourself ....'how much that Jim says about Maharaji really applies to Jim ?....how much does Jim UNCONSCIOUSLY ...expose Jim on this forum? Who is holding James accountable? Vacol Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 20:18:20 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: holding ... accountable Message: Vacol: Just wanted to let everyone in on your proposed contribution to THE GREAT DEBATE, so am reposting my little PROGNOSTICATION: ...'my friend,' what I said was that if you played fair you'd see that Jim does also. Not nice... fair. You've got to do the first to be able to judge the second. Standing in the middle has it's place, but there's nothing inherently noble about it, especially if it involves excusing ethical inconsistencies. Why should he, or anyone, give you a break if you do that? Acknowledging 'mistakes' while making them inconsequential is, itself, an ethical inconsistency. You say you'll hold Maharaji to accounts. Not very likely you even intend to do so, but you use that ruse to defer argument about your position. Am I wrong? Want to prove it? Fine... set a time limit: 'By [date certain] I will send a letter, make a call, and demand that MJ respond to these grievances. Then, if he does not respond by [date certain] I will acknowledge him a fraud.' I know what you'll actually do, however. I'm just psychic that way. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 21:49:33 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Scott T.and Katie Subject: holding ... accountable Message: Scott .....I shall not set a date ....don't be silly . I already have made some phone calls . When I have something clear to inform you about I will.....not that you would probably be happy with any responses that I give you....about anything if goes against your insipid one-sided attempt to discredit M and premies in any way you can....or am I over stating again? And Katie, I just about at that point where I don't want to hear or read the name Jim...or james ..or bubala Yes ...I agree ......I must stop getting so provoked by the school yard bullies that still exist somewhere in my deep psyche. Hope your feeling better today Katie. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 22:25:24 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: holding ... accountable Message: I assure you Vacol, if Maharji actually provides a direct non-evasive answer to any of the questions, and especially if he gives intention to act, I will be joyous and will profoundly apologize for doubting your intentions. As for MJ, actions will always speak louder than words, but words still count. When we say something we create a ligature or bond that can give us opportunity for action, as well as a constraint on alternatives. It is therefor a second-degree choice, or a choice once removed. We shall see. Best of luck. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 21:12:02 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Vacol Subject: holding James accountable Message: Dear Vacol - I feel that you, and some of the other premies that post on here, are assigning WAY too much power to Jim. If you don't think he discusses things in a fair way, then don't talk or respond to him. I certainly won't think any worse of you for it - in fact, I might even think it's a sensible step to take. I wouldn't talk to Mili for months because I didn't like some of the things he said, and this probably stopped us from getting in a lot of stupid fights in the meantime. I realize that Jim reminds a lot of people (men in particular) of the smart-mouth kid that they had problems with in grade school. I personally don't see the necessity for working out the leftover feeling from that particular trauma (and I agree that it probably WAS a trauma) on this forum. As VP said, we are here to talk about Maharaji, about being premies, and about being ex-premies, not about Jim. I hope you can understand where I am coming from. I have just seen so many people get hung up on attacking Jim rather than addressing the issues, and I don't think it helps move the discussion here forward in any way. Regards from Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 21:12:49 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: holding Vacol accountable Message: Who is holding James accountable? The truth is that James is holding you accountable. That's what all this smoke, fire, and brimstone is all about. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 13:57:16 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Vacol Subject: holding James accountable Message: I don't think Jim needs anyone to defend him. He is perfectly capable of doing that. But in the time I have seen Jim participate on this forum, one thing I have never seen him be is dishonest. I can see how he can really get in the faces of premies, and I doubt I would like being on the receiving end of that. He is very good at analysis and humor, especiallly sarcasm. But I have never seen on shred of dishonesty, and if he mistates something he always corrects in publicly. If you have any evidence of Jim's dishonesty in thses discussions, put up or shut up. That's my view. Come on Vacol, you must be a big boy, you can take it. And if you don't like the style in which Jim debates, just don't debate with him. Can your ego handle that? Just say, 'we disagree and I don't like answering your posts.' No one requires that you communicate with anyone here. No one requires that you read anything Jim has to say. Come on, grow up. And Vacol, please, I have to say that you've been all over the place in your posts around here. One minute you claim to engage in 'open questioning' and find the posts here 'helpful,' and then you say the Big M wouldn't participate on the forum because it's 'dishonest,' again providing no evidence to support that accusation. Sometimes your erratic views drive me to distraction, and I'm not surprised they make Jim a little cross too. So have just a little self-awareness and you might see how you may be causing many of your own problems with Jim. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 20:50:37 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: And you, Katie Message: 'Really, where some of the premies have tried to drag this discussion is so funny...funny and sad.' There is always a last ditch strategy to use offense as a defense. 'I fight for one simple thing here -- fair, honest discussion.' Thanks for that. I agree that you are trying to make people think about the real things that GMJ has done and said. It is important. Where else can anyone go to speak and hear about this? Nowhere. 'Normally, though, I'm just into clear discussion. Now that's a bit of a ruse, I guess, in that I know the premies can't meet that standard. So, I like to watch them 'try'. What does that make me? A sadist? Masochist maybe? An unsolicited exit counsellor?' How about 'hopeful'? VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 19:15:26 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: Thanks, VP Message: Thanks, Katie. I agree with everything you said. About the earthworms and rednecks, too...I know a LOT of nice rednecks -g VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 14:59:04 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Is Vacol Schizoid Message: Some of you (my dear friends , adversaries and other oddments)may be seriously questioning and/or wondering if Vacol is quite schizoid.....in the sense of having multiple personalities. Can I tell you a little story that is true. One morning(1986) walking along a deserted beach , the sun just rising and the sea so calm.....one felt a sense of almost overwhelming sacredness. A sense of beingness that was so vast ....so limitless....that one felt to cry and laugh at the same time . Then came an insight....as if without any volitional invitation......'I am who I am ....the witness of all I experience.....I am like a pure light that becomes tangible as colours of personality......so what matter if I allow these colours some freedom to dance....to interweave.....as long as I remember who I am' You see , this is where Knowledge has led me. You can slander and ridicule my colours but you can't touch ME. Knowledge is the royal road that leads to the royal palace. It can be! The palace is realising .....experiencing who one really is. Maharaji's words are like the knowledge ....for they emanate from the knowledge and are directed to the knowledge. Now I will add , Maharaji may indeed have needed to shake his tree(to get rid of dead wood)...for here in the super-logical West we belong to a culture that does not relate or understand well to the 'symbols' of the East. Shaking the tree took some time. And yes, perhaps Maharaji should have said sorry.....'sorry about the fact that some of you guys got hurt as a consequence of my learning curve'(but I wasn't around at that time to really be a good judge of that)....but maharaji's main mission is pointing to the TRUTH.....as many others have done and do too.....and He is providing a way to reach that TRUTH..... It seems to me that Maharaji has undergone a huge learning curve since the 1970's and early 80's. I think ex-premies who have not really heard Maharaji since way back then would do themselves a service to really listen with a little openess (if that's possible)...to recent videos. What have you got to lose? Then you at least can base your criticisms on what he is saying these days. Or should I print some recent quotes and we could discuss them? So Maharaji is talking to us about who WE really are. Who is he? He is the mirror in which it is possible to see.....if one has followed Knowledge to the source....to ones SELF....and grasped the underlying message ......thenone could realise the utter simplicity of it. As for my schizoid personality.....I KNOW WHO I AM AND I KNOW WHO YOU ARE ...BUT DO YOU? I can allow the colours of my personality to dance with some freedom because the Knowledge is so firm. And whenever I begin to fragment ...to forget and lose contact with the Self...the Knowledge....then ALL I need to do is to meditate. One has simply to follow this through. Vacol Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 15:08:06 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Vacol Subject: Is Vacol Schizoid Message: If this is a poll, I'd have to vote 'Yes'. Personally, Vacol, I think you've been meditating with a bag over your head... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 19:31:23 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Brian Subject: Is Vacol Schizoid Message: Okay.. That's one vote for 'yes' I get a niggling feeling that I'm on a loser with this one! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 11:09:32 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Vacol Subject: Is Vacol Schizoid Message: Dear Vacol, There have been ex's here, including myself, who can not relate to a 'video religion'. If it weren't for the human component I know I would never have become interested in M. The video way to K is flat, one demensional and it seems you'd be affected, in particular but it's lack of 2 sided communicative possibilities. It all seems so sterile and whitewashed this way. M doesn't trust his premies to 'say' the right things to aspirants. No one can do the job the way he can. VERY CONTROLLING. See my post about Who is Guru, or something like that. You also seem to me to be saying that if M hurt some by shaking the dead wood or creating a new learning curve after the 70's, so be it. How could he be a good spiritual teacher if he hurts the many hoping to gain the many more. Very materialistic for a perfect anything, I think! What is it about HIM exactly Other Than That He Showed You K, is there about him that leads you to feel devotion to him. What spiritual qualities does he posess for you? Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 14:39:51 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Vacol Subject: The Big M's 'Learning Curve' Message: Tell us all about Big M's 'learning curve,' Vacol, the one you mention he has 'undergone' since the early 80s. What exactly are you talking about? What exactly has he 'learned?' And how is he different since he learned this new stuff? Tell us, since you seem to know so much about him. I am sincerely interested in knowing. Does he talk about different things now? Does he say his role is now different than it used to be vis a vis people who have received knowledge? Is he less into material possessions and a lavish lifestyle? Does he have more (I guess I mean ANY) contact with the majority of the premies other than at programs and through videos? And has he ever talked about what he has learned? Has he ever admitted that he ever NEEDED to learn anything, I mean about being the master and his position in the world. Please tell us what he said about that, or whether this something you just picked up on your own. I HAVE listened to some videos of things Big M said in the last few years. Can't say I detected much different that when I saw them 15 years ago, except he doesn't dance quite as much, and M doesn't look so good with those big bags under his eyes. In the videos I saw he didn't talk as much about 'devotion' but he used the word 'gratitude' much the same way he used to use the word 'devotion,' and he didn't call himself 'the perfect master,' only 'this master.' The changes appear mostly cosmetic, and the premies appear to react to him much the way they always did. Another video I saw just showed him walking around and getting in and out of luxury cars to new-age music. I'll have to say, THAT video didn't appear to be anything more than the opportunity to look at the guy, apparently for the purpose of worship and fostering a personality cult. Could there possibily be any OTHER reason to promote and sell such a video lacking in any content whatsoever? And if he wasn't into being worshipped anymore (part of the learning curve?), why would he distribute a video like that? How on earth does that inspire anyone to practice knowledge? Do you consider worshipping the Big M, an aid in practicing knowledge? So, what has he 'learned?' To package himself a little better, get rid of those troubling ashrams (and to hell with the people who were in them) and forbid the premies from giving satsang? Did he learn not to wear crowns and Krishna outfits? Is that what he 'learned?' It just sounds like better PR to me, but if you have other, concrete, examples of the Big M's educational process, please let us know. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 15:26:09 (EDT)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Is Vacol Schizoid Message: Maharaji's words are like the knowledge ....for they emanate from the knowledge and are directed to the knowledge. I was in agreement with you up to this point. But I disagree with you here. What makes M's words 'emanate from the Knowledge' any more than Jim's or Scott's? I think ex-premies who have not really heard Maharaji since way back then would do themselves a service to really listen with a little openess (if that's possible)...to recent videos. What have you got to lose? Then you at least can base your criticisms on what he is saying these days. Ask you know, I've heard M's words very recently. What he says is beautiful (mostly). Too bad it's not as true as it is beautiful. -Still Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 14:56:17 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Petrou's surprise-Brian read Message: 'Its good to see this because it really qualifies what I have been saying:you guys only respond to a good dose of what you try to dish out AND THEN you become sorry for yourselves.I've got a surpise coming up soon.Stay tuned.'-Petrou This was in the inactive index, so I thought I would bring it up here for discussion. The above post was in response to a criticism I made of Petrou for slamming people on this site. Petrou, I am sick of you lumping everyone together on this site. 'You guys' is like 'you blacks' or 'you Jews' or 'you premies'. Really, it's kind of ignorant and tired, don't you think? For the record, I think it's a bit tired when the exs get carried away with it, too. (I'm NOT talking about the joking around that goes on here, either, which is fine) I also got after Jim on Forum II for slamming people. I was a bit nicer to him than I have been to you because he doesn't proclaim to live up to ideals set forth by Christ. You are being hypocitical, don't you think? Also this is an EX-Premie site, and anger is part of their healing process. I understand that you may be angry for the things that are said about your guru on here, but I have little sympathy for this as you have the right to leave any time! Why would you want to continue to post here? I'm not against your posting, in fact I am in favor of your right to do that. If 'us guys' are so stupid, why would you care what anyone here has to say anyway? Why does it bother you so badly? Are we threatening to you in some way? If M has the truth, why do you care? The truth would win out anyway. Doesn't he give you the peace to move beyond all of this? I would rather hear some of your ideas about EV and Maharaji in some type of reasonable discussion than just only the hateful and hurtful words you have been spewing for the past couple of days. I may not agree with your position, I may even challenge it, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't listen to what you have to say. As long as you are in a reasonable discussion mode, I , for one, am not going to get on here and make fun of you. Are you willing to be reasonable on this forum? About your surprise, I hope this is something nice and not a threat, because THAT would be against the rules of the forum! (Brian?) Regards, VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 15:18:03 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: VP Subject: Petrou's surprise-Brian read Message: Petrou is a childish little boy in Star Trek pajamas whose Daddy won't let him have a swing-set of his own. So he plays in our yard. When he doesn't get to run the game he threatens to run on back to Daddy and tattle. He posted a couple of threads down that he's gonna tell MJ's attorneys that we have been referring to the Ex-Lord Of The Universe as a fraud or other such startling facts. I wouldn't worry about Petrou. I can always cut him down to 1 or 2 posts a day. Or zero. It's all the same to me. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 15:37:52 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Brian Subject: Petrou's surprise-Brian read Message: What about paranoid....panicky....jittery ...Guru Jimji........threatening me with being able to sever my internet service? Brian....please be consistent! Jim oversteps the rules a lot but will you give that wayward ex-premie of yours a rap over his knuckles. Come on.....Jimji is just a coward anyway....we could start a cheer-squad to cheer his fall from grace!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 16:04:06 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Vacol Subject: Relax and breath slowly Message: Your internet service isn't in peril unless you have violated your ISP's rules. If you have, then Jim can choose whether or not to bring it to their attention. If he's considering doing that, you won't be able to say he did it behind your back. The only threats that concern me on the forum are those that would cause bodily harm were they carried out. If you see any like that then point them out and I'll edit or delete them at my disgression. As for being consistent - sometimes I am, and sometimes I'm not. But I'm always wavering constantly in the middle somewhere. Sometimes Daddies favor their own children over the neighbor kids. I know... it isn't fair... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 18:23:58 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Brian Subject: Relax and breath slowly Message: Thanks for being honest.....Although sometimes Brian one knows that ones kids have got it coming to them anyway ....if they are behaving obnoxiously....like spoilt little brats. Actually ....I wish EVERYONE well....I'm just playing war-games because ever since being bullied through my school years I can't stand by and watch bullies get it all their own way. Vacol Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 19:59:12 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Vacol Subject: Relax and breathE slowly Message: Vacol, I don't agree with everything Jim says here. You'll find that there are HUGE differences in the ex's who post here on many issues. But I'm not egging him on when he gets mad, and I don't think it's my place to pretend I can order him to be nicer than he feels like being at the time. That's not why he posts, and it's not why I post. This forum was set up so that ex's could post what they think and feel. It's uncensored, as long as we can keep it from being used to violate laws. Otherwise, if we feel it we can say it here. Think of it as do-it-yourself therapy, without the fancy furniture and at a much lower cost. People who have been involved with Maharaji's cult have this forum to vent. That can be criticism, joking, expressing their sorrow, whatever. Premies are allowed to post here - not encouraged or discouraged. Just allowed is all. The reason for that is that the ex's who post here often start out seeing themselves as still being premies. Devotion to a fantasy is the hardest thing to shake off, since you never get close enough to see it for what it is. Some people (like me) first wandered in here looking to connect with Maharaji's organization - only to find that Take It To The World had become Hide It Where We Can Control It. I was appalled at just how fat and rich he's gotten off of the efforts of his devotees, and began examining my own beliefs. I decided that Maharaji was a fraud. Far more Lard than Lord. That I had bought into it in the first place was hard to take. That I had support here from other people who had to wrestle with the same things in themselves was a true blessing. There were premies posting here then too. I could see the contrast. Not between who was nicer but between who was willing to confront the facts and deal with them. This forum is Jim's. Not in the sense that he holds some legal or moral title to it, but because this is where he deals with what happened as a result of his involvement with Maharaji. And this forum is mine for the same reason. Each ex who posts here and derives a benefit from reading the words of the other ex's can claim this forum as being theirs. Premies first have to take back their own lives before they can claim anything that doesn't fall off of Maharaji's plate. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 21:00:37 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Brian Subject: Relax and breathE slowly Message: Brian I appreciate your candor. Thanks. I'd like to respond to a couple of points. I understand that it's as much Jims forum as anyone elses. Of course....but if it is also my forum too ,then I have equal rights to confront Jim or anyone else as Jim does ...or anyone else does. I guess a part of my motivation in confronting Jim the way I have is to kind of say...'so how does it feel to be on the recieving end...I mean to the extent of things being dramatically and perhaps distortedly being overstated and misinterpretated?' For I feel besides anything else ,Jim does not play the game fairly.....to me , he is a cheat and a liar......despite his better qualities of calling a spade a spade(in his perception of what a spade is) and his more endearing quality of clever wit and intellectual prowess. I realise that the ex-premies here genuinely believe that Maharaji is a fraud ,but premies don't and it would be good if both sides of the fence accepted that there are no absolute conclusions in this regard .....and then some more level headed examination might take place . But when someone over reacts to someone elses difference of opinion then real debate becomes impossible. One last point Brian....your use of the word devotion ,as with other ex's is only true of those premies who experience M that way. I am not devoted to anyone including Maharaji. I am devoted to the truth ....which seems to be the same for almost everyone here, and that is what makes this site potentially one of the best sites on the internet. Regards Vacol Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 22:27:56 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Vacol Subject: Relax and breathE slowly Message: Vacol, you said: but if it is also my forum too, then I have equal rights to confront Jim or anyone else, as Jim does or anyone else does. Pretty big if. This is what I said: Each ex who posts here and derives a benefit from reading the words of the other ex's can claim this forum as being theirs. Obviously there's no secret initiation required to become an ex-premie. No videos required. No promises not to reveal that Maharaji is a fraud. It's pretty open for 'membership'. But someone must be using your name here, Vacol, and they wrote this: I realise that Maharaji is a wonderful, authentic soul (despite some human weaknesses) and that there are some ex-premies who are full of envy, powerlust, hate, hurt, violence ,egotism in vast out of control amounts, and who influence those ex's who are good people but who have genuine doubts and help to really lead them astray. You seem to have a bit of difficulty deciding just what you believe. I get weary of reading the different versions in your posts, and so I skip over them for a while - thinking maybe you'll finish wrestling your personal demons into a corner. Your wonderful, authentic soul of a guru has conned some of us good people who you feel are being influenced by ex's who are full of envy, powerlust, hate, hurt, violence, and egotism in vast out of control amounts. Just what the fuck do you actually believe, Vacol?? I've seen your numbered posts drone on and on vaccuously praising Maharaji and slamming the premies for his failure as a Messiah and his having suffered vast personal enrichment at the bumbling hands of his donating devotees. Do you feel that there is anyone on this site that is the slightest bit interested in protecting your imaginary right to babble this sort of bullshit?? Premies are allowed to post here. They forfeited the right to post ANYWHERE when they knuckled-under to Maharaji's request not to do so on their own site. Is that clear enough? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 23:05:57 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Brian Subject: Relax and breathE slowly Message: This SO typical Brian. Double standards! It is fine for ex's to express just about whatever they choose. Whatever they feel or think at the time is fine . Angry...kind...gentle....sarcastic....the best ...the worst....we are all in the same boat....but dare a premie really open out and share everything.....and that's like ....barely tolerated. I won't go on.....but Brian I really think...that not everyone agrees with you .....and I certainly feel that there are people here who appreciate my contribution ....even if it disturbs those who see things too much in black and white. If I am wrong then I'd gladly ....to partly quote your expletive .....Fu-- off! Also , the more one shares the greater the risks. Ban me if you want ....it might show more of your real feelings. Silence is a good hiding place, Vacol Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 23:12:27 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Relax and breathE slowly Message: What do you mean 'double standard' Vacol? I thought you were on the fence, dancing in the dragons jaws? You are not 'whining' are you, Braveheart? I'm shattered! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 23:55:24 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Vacol Subject: Get real, Vacol Message: Nobody's talking about banning you, Vacol, except you. It comes up in a lot of your posts lately. As for a double-standard... No, it's a single-standard. Applies the single place on the internet where premies are ALLOWED to post about Maharaji. It's beyond his grasp, Vacol. He can't ask us nicely to shut it down, or imply some form of damnation if we don't take the hint-road out of town that Mili and Harlan took with the premie site. Now THERE was a site with a double-standard. Now it's gone, thanks to your guru having cowardly pressured his loving devotees through the devout servants that surround him. Ex-premies couldn't post there. If they found out you were an ex, your post disappeared faster than a video dollar. My point is this, Vacol: Don't go strutting around here talking about your rights. You have none. Rights are the natural byproduct of assuming responsibilty. They don't come from anywhere else. When premies assume reponsibility for their lives, instead of seeking signs in the winds blowing over Maharaji's walls, then they will have rights. Until then, they post here ONLY by the grace of those who have assumed the responsibility for ensuring that this site stands. Whether Maharaji likes it or not. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 00:58:38 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Brian Subject: Get real, Vacol Message: I just received a sign......actually a voice blowing in the wind.......it whispered .....shut up Vacol...enough already!.....followed by a distant chorus of ex's repeating this sacred mantra 'shut up Vacol....enough already' I do follow the signs!!!!!!!!!!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 05:41:18 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: Brian Subject: Get real, Vacol Message: Now THERE was a site with a double-standard. Now it's gone, thanks to your guru having cowardly pressured his loving devotees through the devout servants that surround him. Ex-premies couldn't post there. If they found out you were an ex, your post disappeared faster than a video dollar. Although am generally in agreement with your post I am not totally with you there Brian about the premie site having double-stardards. I think it was fairly obvious that they didn't want to publish scathing attacks on Maharaji or even milder criticisms for that matter. I think they were entitled to do so if they wished. I have no objection to anyone setting up a biased premie site where only glowing reports are allowed, just as I have no objections to a site appearing with solely anti-Maharaji content. Freedom of speech means you can say what you like and ban whom you like! You have alternatively chosen to give equal opportunity to people of all standpoints which is a fair thing and laudable to do. Personally, I wasn't at all surprised that Maharaji himself appears to have expressed that he would not welcome even a site as favourably biased as Harlans. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 15:44:40 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Brian Subject: Petrou's surprise-Brian read Message: Hey, I just read what his surprise is. Okay, it's not a valid 'threat.' Sorry to disturb you for nothing. VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 21:18:50 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Brian Subject: Petrou's surprise-Brian read Message: Hi Brian - one of the funniest posts I've read all day (VP gave the prize for yesterday's funniest to Jim's 'cater a wedding' post.). Thanks. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 23:15:30 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: Interesting=catering a wedding Message: Katie, (I REALLY hope that you are NOT reading the forum tonight-snicker!) A friend once told me that if you over use the word 'interesting' (which I tend to do) you are avoiding having to commit to other more detailed descriptions of things. It's lazy language use. Jim's explanation of this was so much funnier than my friend's though. (Straight out of Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil-haha!.) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 23:23:14 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: VP Subject: Interesting=catering a wedding Message: I missed this. What was the subject of the post in which it appears? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 08:17:13 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Interesting=catering a wedding Message: Scott, Now I can't find it. Jim was responding to CD who had said that the web site was 'interesting'. Jim's response was straight 'Julia Sugerbaker', I assure you. (You know, sassy retort) VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 17:06:09 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: VP Subject: Interesting=catering a wedding Message: CD finds everything interesting. He's very cow-like. If he ever comes across his navel he'll be offline for weeks... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 14:34:23 (EDT)
From: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: It could have been fantastic Message: I walked into Bournemouth town centre last year and was most surprised and delighted to hear a most beautiful sound. For in the centre were a group of South American pan pipe players. And boy were they something else! I stood absolutely rivetted. And I don't know what it was because I'd been suffering under some heavy weight of health and business troubles but suddenly I felt a burden lift from my shoulders, like someone had just grabbed hold of it and pulled it away. And I felt myself go into another dimension. Tears filled my eyes and I felt absolute total love, standing there in the middle of Bournemouth. I felt like my heart was an ever expanding thing, going out and touching all beings with a most poweful feeling of love and I could feel that love reaching out and touching me and embracing me. I couldn't stop it because I felt like I was disappearing into a most wonderful feeling that was sheer heaven. The guys playing the pan pipes were love, the people standing with me listening were all love and everything all around me was turning into one huge expression of love. The floodgates had opened. I had the realisation once again that this is how things really are. And I had such a feeling that I wanted to embrace everyone because they were so beautiful. Now I mention all of this because that's exactly how I felt shortly after I had received the knowledge techniques. And this feeling made me feel that Maharaji must be the Lord. I tried to express something of this using another name on the forum (Wasapremie) but Brian's chastisement of people using different identities made me feel guilty so I'll just be David from now on. The feeling of love I had around that time, the awakening, was indescribable. I felt like a man who had been some miserable wretch suddenly transformed into somebody overflowing with good vibes. This was too much of a dramatic transformation to be a mistake and I realised that God had actually answered my prayer. Perhaps this had little to do with Maharaji because I'd not seen him or even heard him speak, at the time. I am still trying to come to terms with what has happened. Because those feelings I've sometimes had, of such a deep and profound reality of endless love, are too real and important to just pass off as 'another experience'. You know I never experienced the above at programs or festivals. This opening of my heart has always happened quite by chance, any time and anywhere. For years I thought that this is how Maharaji must feel. I was glad that the Lord was here to lead me to an ever deeper realisation of this love. Why else would I have lived in ashrams and spent my time trying to serve Maharaji? I wanted to experience this reality of love, more. I wanted to live it and spread it to other people. Well it could have been fantastic. Us, the Lord and endless love to all. It didn't quite work out that way did it? But I do believe that God is in there somewhere. I don't have any answers though. Only that the ultimate reality, behind everthing, is one of unbelievable love. That love could never judge a person or critisise them or condemn them. That love would love them totally no matter what. I pray that somehow, the reality of that indescribably wonderful love, will become known. Otherwise it is as those gorgeous Spice Girls sing - Too much of nothin'... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 16:29:52 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: David Subject: It is fantastic Message: David, Nice story! I have, as has you and everyone, had really great, powerful and suprising feelings of beauty. I remember one day looking at a sunset that became something quite unusual and extraordinary. It did conincide with a M visit and I thought, what a quirk. But, a catalyst does have value even if it is not the ultimate source. One day listening in London to the Anand Band's great singer hit some high notes I saw a different view of what was around me that took me by suprise. At my K session I felt a great peace. Feeling eternity inside at those times when I did break through the clouds of thought to experience that which just exists. If I tell too many stories or details I will be ridiculed or bore some people, so I won't. Yes, it is us that has the powerful feelings and experience inside. It is a wonder that we are alive. Feeling that is beauty and an inspiration for love. I will be in London June 11 for the Wembley event. Regards, CD www.cdickey.com Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 20:59:49 (EDT)
From: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: CD Subject: The love that we are Message: Some day, The love that we are, will flow like a river. Some day, the heart that bleeds will break in two And love from Heaven will fall to earth Like a waterfall. Some day we will not be afraid And our tears will be of joy. Some day, in our weakness We'll find the strength of love. Some day, it will all come together for us And that will be just the beginning. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 22:00:08 (EDT)
From: Paula Email: None To: David Subject: It is fantastic Message: Hi David. These south american players are indian nomads spread all over the world. They come from a region between Chile and Peru. Even though I am not from these countries, everytime I see these guys (I saw them in Canada, in England, Argentina and Brasil).... I feel as if I was at home. And it is a felling of Love. I felt the same love in many other situations... but I don't think that M has anything to do with it, because I never felt this 'love' or 'God´s presence' when I was listening to his videos or in programs. When I saw M, I saw a fraude. And I think he is very questionable. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:56:59 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: David and Katie Subject: It could have been fantastic Message: David - thanks for the story. I have had that experience also, and I guess that I view it as the tangible experience of a higher power. I think that something like that is always going on but we are just not ready to receive it. Events like hearing the pan pipes can catalyze it. I have had that experience looking out of the car window on the New Jersey Turnpike (not what you would call a pleasant place), so I know it can happen almost anywhere. (And I know what you mean by 'it could have been fantastic'.) P.S. to Paula - I very much like that kind of South American music. My husband and I lived in Colorado for a while and there was a band like that that used to play on the street corners on the weekend. They were wonderful. I went to visit my family in Virginia last year, and there was another band that played that kind of music. My niece really likes it too, and she is only eight years old (she loves the Spice Girls too, David!) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 07:51:40 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Everyone Subject: X-filers meet Looney toons Message: In case you have't heard,I'm sending the mentally unstable comments made by 'bb' and his many supporters to legal reps of GMJ. And you people have the gaul to ask GMJ why he doesn't want to talk to you!!Then you make a big deal over it but turn a blind eye to your own insults and threats.PLUS you won't respond to critical comment or reason. And of course 'most' of the forum is recorded so anyone who wants can see this strange turn of events.Viva the net. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 08:32:40 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Petrou Subject: X-filers meet Looney toons Message: We record it. We pay for it. We maintain it. And you sit on your ass and gripe. Viva the net, sure. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 09:04:36 (EDT)
From: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Petrou Subject: X-filers meet Looney toons Message: Petrou wrote: 'PLUS you won't respond to critical comment or reason.' I've always thought the opposite was true, that there is often a most lengthy and thorough response to critical comment. Please give an example of this. I think Maharaji knows that there's nothing he can do to stop talk about him on the net. He is realistic there. He couldn't sue all of the participants of the forum and even if he somehow managed to get the site closed down, another web site could easily be started elsewhere, from any country. This site is a thorn in Maharaji's side, no doubt. I think in the end he will adjust his ministry to try to silence his critics. That would be the best way forward for him, rather than get embroiled in a legal battle. I'd credit Maharaji with some intellegence. Any legal battle would create publicity which he could do without. I think if premies want to help Maharaji on this forum they would be best served by following Gumby's approach. As a Christian he doesn't enter into nasty arguments but just states his case, without any critisism of the premies or ex-premies. Peace and love will always win over aggression in the end. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 15:24:28 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: David Subject: X-filers meet Looney toons Message: Premies state their cases and state them and state them...and meet with small-minded ridicule again and again and I personally am prone to a good wrestle in the slime and the mud with those who refuse to reason.......wake up David!!! With respects....Vacol Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 02:54:57 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Thankyou Message: These are my feelings right now. I feel very thankful to the forum ex's for helping me see things more clearly. I really mean this...because after reading many many posts .....many very carefully I have started to see the light ...... Jim , scott, anon , and mr ex come to mind especially as leading lights in my sudden awakening and to them I say a big thank you! It's taken a while for the pennies to drop ...but ..ah,well ...it's often the way .... So ...what is this big awakening I speak of .? I realise that Maharaji is a wonderful, authentic soul (despite some human weaknesses) and that there are some ex-premies who are full of envy, powerlust, hate, hurt, violence ,egotism in vast out of control amounts, and who influence those ex's who are good people but who have genuine doubts and help to really lead them astray. SHAME ON YOU GUYS!!!!! I know that I run the risk of being banned from the forum for daring to confront this disgusting parody which masks such evil intentions. I also realise that there are some really beautiful souls who come to this forum and I would say to them ....look elsewhere for healing , not to those who are so incredibly unhealed themselves and yet pretend they can help to heal others. It's a shame if the really sensitive souls get pushed out in one way or another and these envious little muck-rakers get to continue on with their self-deluded vendeta. Forget about M .....what you think about M is another matter ....but don't you see the shrunken pitiful souls in your own midst? Yes ...I am describing their veneer ...and of course underneath they are hurt little souls , but so was Hitler....so was and is everyone until they turn towards the light , the love and the truth. You can continue to mangle other peoples words ...especially Maharaji's ...and you can confound yourselves with your own mental gymnastics .....but if I am allowed to stay here after this I shall only enter REAL DEBATE WITH HONEST PEOPLE. mY LAST TESTIMONY unless I have good reason to post again! Blessings (human ones)to those friends I have made . VACOL.....KEITH SIMONS. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 03:07:58 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: everyone Subject: Thankyou Message: I also suggest you read the section of the index 'watch out kieth' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 03:34:00 (EDT)
From: gumby Email: megumby@hotmail.com To: Vacol Subject: Thankyou Message: Hi Keith, I read your last post, then reread some of your earlier posts. You are a true testimony about the old saying: feelings come and go, just like the wind. One instance you are giving thanks and the next you are calling the object of previous thanks a LOSER. I have to admit that I am having a bit of difficulty following your logic. Now, I may not be the sharpest crayon in the box, but I can usually follow a consistent story. You recently wrote: ...so was and is everyone until they turn towards the light , the love and the truth... The context that you write this statement is absurd. Are you implying that m is the way to light, love and truth? You admonish people to forget about m, but the reality is that the whole raison d'etre(excuse my french, and my poor spelling) for this site is to discuss what a fraud m is. Keith, I don't usually participate in the cut-down posts, as my main interest here is in sharing the Good news of Jesus the Christ, our Lord and Savior. But, when reading your posts you seem to have a lot of anger inside of you. You know Keith, if m is innocent, that will come through. If he is not, then he needs to repent and make amends to all the lives that he has affected. I hope and pray that m will one day repent and come to the Lord, before he breaths his last breath. For I believe that the Author of Life will look at each one of our books, and see what is written therein. Grace and Peace to you. -gumby Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 03:50:54 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: Vacol Subject: no need for goodbyes Message: Hello Vacol, You probably will find yourself still being here some more and dont feel shy about that. Part of you is active and that part will want the exercise it gets here. If you want, change your post name. That way you will leave the KS problem behind. I probably am one of those hotheads you mentioned. Of course I view my intent a little differently. I think rawat is doing a disservice to man and freedom and he is doing it under the guise of being the lord. You may think he is small potatoes but he is in 50 countries and has all this video footage of him pretending to be god and a few decades of time can help wash away an opportunity to save future and present people from his false portrayal of god. This is no small minded revenge scene here. This is free humans acting responsibly. OK so we also act out a bit. Well dont fergit you have typed a few clunkers also. I think you will have more to say and you will find yourself without companions in this issue who understand you and are willing to respond to you. Isnt this website good after all? If Jim was traveling around pretending to be god when he isnt, wouldnt you think some form of opposition would be appropriate? You have already spent time opposing him. So you do understand the whole opposing rationale. You mentioned hitler. Do you know he was supported by the jesuits and the vatican from the beginning and the first thing he did upon gaining power was sign a concordat with the vatican giving them the only religion status in germany as a payback for the vatican giving him thier support. Same with mussilini and franco. So you see what tyrants-religious tyrants-the vatican back then, will do and what devastation they end up causeing. Why? because they wanted to be between people and god. Everyone thinks you need a third party between you and god. big mistake. Not simple. Not true. Prem rawat DEFINATELY plants his fat ass between you and god. HE is god. (the master is god). What about that crown? Look into the future of that crown. That crown is tyranny now and yet to come. What dalia lama is going to be honest and say 'hey! Im not the incarnation of so and so?' Wont happen. Same with that crown. We have a chance to tell the truth about this false tyrant godhead pretender and it is extremely irresponsible for us to just 'calm down, get a life, go inside, see somebody, get the looney bin guys, ect ect' which is the responsible bleating of petrou and sometimes YOU. But we like you and your probabaly stuck here for a while longer and thats a-ok. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 08:36:12 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Thankyou Message: Are you familiar with the term 'grandiose?' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 09:11:43 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Thankyou Message: T... A... K... E... ... A... ... N... A... P... ! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 10:05:07 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: heidi-ho neighbor Message: Your not getting the phone calls I am getting I guess. The ones from premies talking about the schedule of events of the tour and every caller says 'the lord'. No one uses the term master. I suppose that is worldwide. Look at Joseph Smith. He said he found golden plates in the woods one day and and read them then 'lost' them and told people about what the plates said. they said jesus left jerusalum after the cross incident and came to america and started up here and that there were castles and roads and wars and great cities and they all had disappeared by the time of the european discovery of america. He started a religion about this and was killed for his troubles but his followers carried on and now they advertise themselves as the fastest growing religion in america. They number 12 million or so. L ron hubbard told his son in the 1950's that if you really want to make money, start a religion. L ron did. Now tom cruise, other movie stars, and too many people are in that trap and it isnt easy to get out. You cant get more grandiose that wearing that crown and claiming to be lord of the universe. Dancing with pearl malas and all the rest. Followers will try to swell the ranks and if you can foist a trip like Joe Smith's tablets of missing gold on that many people, rawat and the breath will go farther. There is not a shred of archeological evidence to back up that golden tablet story of cities and roads but the ranks continue to grow. L Ron Hubbard has you pay for each of the 7 levels of revelation that you get instructed on and the 7th level you are told you are actually a reincarnation of someone from some planet from 10 billion years ago. And you are told to go to public places and put thoughts into peoples heads and that you can talk to the animals. Go to the anti scientology web sites and see for yourself. So I done think it is a big strech to see the 50 country infection of a fake lord becomeing only larger in time. Expecially with apologists like student,bruce,petrou,others you know, and with edited videos and the old songs and no opposition group that takes itself or the situation seriously. I personally need a reason to continue being involved in anything to do with him because I am at the point where I am out of his cult and I can just walk away. But until many more voices come forward to tell more up close stories of his life, I want to stay involved helping to contact them. He makes a bad lord and look at the stupid and endless problems buddha caused by his vast misperception of life. Here is the lord of the universe for christ sake and he is adament about continueing and passing on the empire,plane, and crown to the kids. Dont think for a moment that this will end with his death. Or that we will enjoy diminished effect from his trip permanently. That would be nice but that is not reality. That is unfortunately not the trip and I want to make sure I dont just skip out on this when I was trapped in it so long and I know that Jim and JW and Rick and Brian and Katie and You and everyone are takeing a honest and` true stand here for the truth. Regardless if they believe in a god or not. If the vatican info sounded a little to new to you, there are the photos and words of the participants that back up that bit of true history. Anyway, allergies kept me up last night. I do like to sleep but spring is rough. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 10:26:45 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: bill Subject: heidi-ho neighbor Message: Bill: You didn't think the TAKE A NAP sequence was directed at you, did you? I was just poking fun at Vacol's silly writing style, where he injects ellipses into everything. It's really just shallow entertainment. Are you interested in Phenomenology? Berger and Luckman have an interesting take on the social role of religion. I think the book is called The Social Construction of Reality or something. It's a bit over-the-top, but has some interesting insights. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 15:09:10 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: heidi-ho neighbor Message: Bill , could I add a book to Scotts suggestion. WHO AM I? by SRI NISARGADATTA MAHARAJ..... He was a simple man who lived in Bombay but had great wisdom .....and as people from around the world heard about him many made their way to his little Bombay apartment and engaged him in discussion. This book is a record of the transcripts of those discussions. Really magnificent !!!! Vacol Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 15:11:19 (EDT)
From: Bill and Scott Email: None To: Vacol Subject: heidi-ho neighbor Message: Sorry that last message was meant for Bill ....but perhaps you Scott would enjot it too ....although I doubt it! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 15:13:48 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Bill and Scott Subject: heidi-ho neighbor Message: These damn reply boxes ....especially when I'm tired ....I shall go and get my nap now. good night ! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 16:00:20 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: heidi-ho neighbor Message: Vacol: ....I shall go and get my nap now. good night ! Best idea you've had today. Sweet dreams. Try not to snore. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 15:30:18 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: heidi-ho neighbor Message: Vacol: You're such a fine judge of people that you let that get in your way. If you haven't noticed, Bill is somewhat less open to religion, and religious leaders, than I. (I hope I'm not misrepresenting you Bill. If so, it's unintentional.) The Berger/Luckman book is interesting because one of the two is religious, while the other is an atheist. I don't remember which is which though. I think it's a bit out of your league, however, Vacol. It has big words, and talks about legitimacy a lot. By the way, do you know which is the 'to' and which the 'from' box? There's a label on the left. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 18:41:21 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: heidi-ho neighbor Message: HHHmmmm! gee thanks there Scotty. You're a bud and a half! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 19:54:42 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: heidi-ho neighbor Message: Not a full-fledged two, huh? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 11:35:40 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Vacol Subject: Thankyou Message: Dear Vacol, I am hoping I am included in your term 'really beautiful souls', may I take that liberty? I have to dispute your statement that: there are some ex-premies who are full of envy, powerlust, hate, hurt, violence ,egotism in vast out of control amounts, and who influence those ex's who are good people but who have genuine doubts and help to really lead them astray. No one here claims to be 'healing' anyone else. We are each working on healing ourselves. I know that is how I feel and I have read the same sentiment from other ex's. Most of my healing extends beyond M to be sure so no one could really help me even if they wanted to. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 22:31:14 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: Everyone/Robyn Subject: Question about exiting Message: My you are a verbose bunch! Waaaayy... down the inactive index I found a question from Robyn I needed to address as a new thread. She asked how I found an exit counselor and would MB and others benefit? My story is not really very traditional. I guess one can look on the web and find some, or just call around in the yellow pages. I was really lucky to already have a counselor who has gone through the cult thing with a rather intense christian type group. So she is extremely aware of what's up with all that. I was very fortunate in that we had already established a relationship and she knew me when I was still into semi into M, sort of. I don't know how the traditional exit counselors work. This woman just relates her own insights and experiences..and YES, it has been extremely benificial. For me the best thing she has done is show me not to be impressed by displays of devotion, or as she calls them religiosity. Maybe others can help Robyn regarding exiting info? I posted a warning about Cult Awareness Network a while ago so that may not be the best reference. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 15:27:14 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Selena Subject: Question about exiting Message: SO boring and blind!!!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 15:34:30 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: You failed words. Message: No message. Just wanted to initiate a thread on this subject. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 10:32:35 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Selena Subject: Exit counseling Message: Thanks Selena - I wanted to give a few more possible leads. A woman named Deena that used to post on here (and we miss her!) got a lot of help from a place called 'Info-Cult' in Montreal. I believe she talked to a person named Mike. I think she did it over the phone too. There are also some good Q and A's about cults on the Trancenet site (former TMers and other groups). Brian's got a link to it on the web page, although I'm not exactly sure where. By the way, Selena, I can't understand why Vacol called your message 'boring and blind'! It certainly wasn't to me. Regards from Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 11:39:00 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Selena Subject: Question about exiting Message: Dear Selens, Thanks for getting to that question. I just thought Memphis Belle might be interested. Glad you had the help you needed to get out. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 18:09:07 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Words almost fail me Message: What frustrates me more than just about anything is when someone pours their heart and mind out....whether that be a premie or a ex-premie....and for the words to be trampled on ....spat on ....ridiculed ....totally ignored.....treated like evil personified ....and so on.....and ex's are far more guilty of this than premies ...in my estimation ....by a long way. There is so much hate, paranoia, mistrust , violence, ....wow....and again I repeat....projection ....PROJECTION.... Can some of you stop for a moment and take a hard look at yourself in the mirror. Very few ex's can discuss about Maharaji with any fairness whatsoever .....so poisoned are most ex's by their yet unresolved crippling pain. How are you going to heal yourselves as long as you violate your own capacity to think openly and honestly.? Some of the painful stories that ex's have posted (and I have read a lot from the archives too ) have really moved me ....but it is just all too simple to attribute all the hurt to M's evil doings . It is just unsound and inbalanced and leaves no room for rational debate ...(it's all mummies or daddies fault that I'm so messed up). And I have stopped sharing my criticisms of M , e.v and premies because most ex's are only too happy to agree with my criticisms but not with one iota of positive expression about the same ......except for an occasional 'I respect your honesty type mutter'. You can wield the big stick or support those who do like guru Jimji, but when a little comes back your way you pathitically call 'foul'. These sentiments are not intended for all ex's.....please only wear the hat if you think it fits you !!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 18:13:17 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Words almost fail me Message: You are an absolute master of the English language. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 18:28:48 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Read below, Kieth Message: Kieth, I don't care the slightest what you have to say about anything. You will be eternally remembered as the buffoon who uttered, 'Let the Debate Begin!!' while unable to carry on the simplest discussion. If us ex's ever get together, you can be sure that at the end of the night, when the liquor's flowing freely and -- okay, no more Katie jokes -- alright, when the liquor's flowing freely, someone will shout out of nowhere, 'Let the debate begin!!' and we'll all fall over laughing. Think about it. Wouldn't YOU do that? One thing you've taught me at least is that a premie's cognitive dissonance knows absolutely no boudaries. Your barn door's been open a long time now, bud. But I just posted to tell you alert your attention to my warning below. I'm completely serious about what I said and, I assure you, I won't warn you next time. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 18:31:24 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Vacol Subject: Words almost fail me Message: Vacol, I don't know if you think this hat fits me or not but I know that I have written about my life as a child and the lessons I've learned there. Facts are facts whether about parents or M. Maybe facts is the wrong word. How about each of our individual perceptions of events that effect our lives whether in our childhood families or in our experience with M. How can you expect us to say 'nice, nice' about anything you say about M. We think him a fraud! Ex's have asked premies to give even just one example of M doing a good deed for an individual person or cause, no takers on that one. I have asked premies heartfelt questions and received no responses. I see you say you have stopped writting critical statements against M because the ex's all get so supportive when you do...the is ex-premie.org. If you can't write those thoughts I am sorry because you have them and they are supported here. Do you want to have your doubts shot down here? Not likely, and there isn't a premie site where you can, why? I hope you don't stop your inner questioning and seek answers for those questions until you are satisfied. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 18:43:49 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Jamie Subject: Words almost fail me Message: I know who I am But who are you? One things for sure ....you can't keep a promise!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 18:46:07 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Words almost fail me Message: Try me. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:05:32 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Jim and Robyn Subject: Words almost fail me Message: ' Jim', ....try me .....try what? Try debating with you again .....okay ...lets give it a go ....I even began by typing Jim.....I suprise myself sometimes......Jim ....you repeat my words back to me .....about holding M accountable for his actions ......let me give an example that is very significant to me personally, if you will bear with me . Robyn has asked what I feel is a most importent question ......where else could I vent my thoughts and feelings openly ? why does M NOT facilitate such a theraputic forum for his premies ......I DO HOLD MAHARAJI ACCOUNTABLE FOR THIS .....and I demand an answer......how does that sound .....someone very close to M or M himself needs to convince me that there are very profound reasons to keep premies as subserviant and mute as they are ......and it is not enough to say ....'practice knowledge and all your doubts will vanish'......no no no ......My perception is that the disempowering of premies from their mental capacities is really questionable. I do believe in a total synthesis of human potential ......not giving up an arm for a leg ....or even an arm for a heart .....all bits are part of a whole . So Jim and Robyn ....I have dared to approach from the other side ....but don't box me as a this or a that .....I am not a premie .....as Mirabai said in one of her early posts....I am a human being!!!! One more thing .......as for holding M accountable for all his actions ....they are not my gripes ...they are whoevers ....so please allow me to work with my own gripes and discover where that leads me . Vacol Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 11:44:32 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: You may not hate this. Message: Vacol: why does M NOT facilitate such a theraputic forum for his premies ......I DO HOLD MAHARAJI ACCOUNTABLE FOR THIS .....and I demand an answer......how does that sound.....someone very close to M or M himself needs to convince me that there are very profound reasons to keep premies as subserviant and mute as they are ......and it is not enough to say ....'practice knowledge and all your doubts will vanish'......no no no ...... Or you'll do what? I'm not jousting with you. I'm suspending my usual mode of response here, to simply point out that demands without consequences are not very motivating. Have you noticed how forthcoming Clinton is about the Lewinsky incident? (I always get her mixed up with that 14 year old ice skater.) BTW, you are completely wrong about my relationship with Jim, and with your estimation about both our characters. I like him, but he is an evolutionist and I'm a teleologist. Basically, I've been trained to scoff at evolutionary theory no matter how it's dressed up. But Jim plays fair. If you did, you'd find that out. He's just not therapeutic, at all. As I said in a thread response below, to CD, what the hell do you expect when the situation is as you describe in your statement above? BTWII, you are welcome to use dots and periods in any expressive way you like, but ellipses are conventionally used to denote either a long and thoughtful pause, or an omission. A three dot ellipsis denotes a within paragraph omission. A four dot ellipsis denotes an omission that spans paragraphs. I think you overuse them a bit, which interferes with the flow of your prose, but that's just a personal preference. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 14:17:16 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: You may not hate this. Message: Wrong.....Scott.....if you really think that Jim plays fair , then both of you are very very deluded, my friend!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 15:05:36 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: I predict... Message: No 'my friend,' what I said was that if you played fair you'd see that Jim does also. Not nice... fair. You've got to do the first to be able to judge the second. Standing in the middle has it's place, but there's nothing inherently noble about it, especially if it involves excusing ethical inconsistencies. Why should he, or anyone, give you a break if you do that? Acknowledging while making inconsequential is, itself, an ethical inconsistency. You say you'll hold Maharaji to accounts. Not very likely you even intend to do so, but you use that ruse to defer argument about your position. Am I wrong? Want to prove it? Fine... set a time limit: 'By [date certain] I will send a letter, make a call, and demand that MJ respond to these grievances. Then, if he does not respond by [date certain] I will acknowledge him to be a fraud.' I know what you'll actually do, however. I'm just psychic that way. BTW, just to show I can admit a mistake: 3 dot ellipsis = within sentence omission 4 (or greater) = across sentence (paragraph) omission Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 19:09:33 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Words almost fail me Message: Robyn.....it seems you are reading my words very selectively .....Well, I guess we all do that , don't we ? But .....let me take you up on one of your points ....this oft-repeated question.....tell me one positive or helpful or kind or whatever thing that Maharaji has done for anyone? You have got to be joking ....no your not .....okay , when I needed a dollar M didn't send me one ........when my marraige ended M didn't even write to me and say 'sorry.....but I care '. There are zillions of things that M has not done for me or probably anyone else .......but what has he done for me ? Robyn ...I love Knowledge ......that's what he has done for me ....and he didn't charge me a cent ......What did krishnamurti do for me ? What did sri aurobindo do for me? What did Maharaji do for me? Words almost fail me ... To me a really good friend ...I mean a best friend is someone who understands your very soul.......and vice-versa.... That is friendship.......should you ask ;'what did a friend ever do for you?' A friend offered frienship. And a friend is not a friend just on the level of sharing a cup of coffee or agreeing with each other in some trivial manner. Am I getting through? This is an ex-premie org ..yes but you have opened it to all and sundry....even us lost sheep you call premies.... and as such I have embraced it as my number one cyberhome .....up until now.....and I don't expect ex's to jump up and applaud whenever anything positive is said about M......but when someone like guru Jimji taunts me with the words ;'LET THE DEBATE BEGIN'...and does not have the slightest inkling that I can have a far more intelligent and fair and honest debate with my 10 year old son then....let the poor bugger stew in his own soup. I was really open from the moment I entered this forum .....but I really feel that a premie in your midst ,to one degree or another , evokes such uncontrollable negative emotions that despite attempts to curb these sensations you cannot and sooner or later they erupt....usually sooner.....and this makes any type of rational debate impossible. Jim makes an art form of gibberish . There are only a few ex's who don't fit my general descriptions ....look at it for gods sake . i'm not just gas-bagging ......but despite all this, this site is the most interesting one I've yet discovered on the net ....and the only one where I can even begin to express freely what I NEED to. Regards Vacol Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 19:20:35 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Kieth's funny shtick Message: Today, Chris says this: I can have a far more intelligent and fair and honest debate with my 10 year old But, in a post entitled 'I concede defeat', he said: I surrender! The facts do matter.....too....very much....did it really come over like I was excusing Maharaji for his actions. Sorry guys......I must learn to convey my thoughts more clearly. You say I'm easily entertained, Scott, but come on, where else are you going to see this shit? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 19:30:18 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: Kieth's funny shtick Message: Jim: Point taken. Now, if I could get some woman interested in it I'd have a really cheap date. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 19:30:40 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Vacol Subject: 2 Words almost fail me Message: Dear Vacol, I didn't mean what did M do for you...I meant what has he done for Joe Shmoe or to save the whales, I mean outside of his thing. There are a good number of ex's here that value K and know it can stand alone. M didn't show me K, a mahatma did...back when. For me, Vacol, a friend has to care if I am unhappy, M wouldn't know or care. My friend's hold me close to their hearts. I know you hold M close to your heart but does he reciprocate? Not in my experience, or dare I venture to speak for JW, Katie, Scott, Jim, VP, Rick, Anon, eb, Selena and on and on. Many of these people experienced pain and doubt and were mad to feel it was all their mind...I don't think you are getting my point. I think we can all see why/how you premies say what you say, see what you see and don't what you don't we were all there once. It is a hard shell to crack and no one could crack our shells until the time was right for us and that is how it is for you. I am rabling now and feel like I've opened the door and invited the Johova's Witness in. Some topics just can't be resolved between 2 of such different perspectives. Premies are welcome here but that doesn't change the site from being ex-premie based. It is your choice to present yourself here and you admit it is the only web site where you can even begin to freely express what you need to. Why is that? Think about that. Jim can be overbearing at times but that is who he is, eh, Jim. If it wasn't for Jim you and I wouldn't be here so lets thank him for that! You must realize that we ex's also put up with things we don't like from premies, it's the nature of the beast. Of course I see you questioning and hope that those questions will lead you to 'see' things more like I do where M is conserned because I think he is fooling you and I don't think you deserve that. If you become more into M, so be it but at least you have had the opportunity to toss your thoughts around. M wouldn't like it if he knew. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:20:45 (EDT)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Words almost fail me Message: this site is the most interesting one I've yet discovered on the net ....and the only one where I can even begin to express freely what I NEED to. And I, for one, hope you have the strength of heart to continue, despite your detractors. Maybe you think I've attacked you, because I responded to you a lot in the other thread. This was not my intention. It's just that you were doing things that were a perfect demonstration of what I was talking about. No one likes to be made an example of. Perhaps I was wrong to do that. I was actually hoping to spark discussion with you. I think we're both exploring here, and neither of us knows where we're going to end up. I for one would like to see these explorations continue. This site is the place for me to express things I need to say also. I think we're just going to have to be strong and express it, and try not to get too bogged down in what other people think about it. -Still Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 23:20:29 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Still Crazy Subject: Words almost fail me Message: I agree ....with all you say ; just a personal tic of mine is ....I wish you would change your nickname ....it doesn't feel right to refer to you as crazy. My view is that walking a middle path is really difficult .....those on the right and the left are prone to attack .....but it is so importent to not compromise ones voice , if you know what I mean. My life has been walked on a tightrope ,....why stop now? So , what is your background experience with Maharaji and Knowledge? I'd like to hear ...or perhaps you could direct me to a past posting that answers that? Regards Vacol Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 14:29:21 (EDT)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Words almost fail me Message: My purpose right now is to talk and explore about Maharaji, with my own experiences being peripheral, observatory or conjectural/conclusive right now. Maybe I'll get to discussing me later on when I feel more comfortable in this environment. -Still P.S. My nickname is from the Paul Simon (?) song 'Still Crazy After All These Years' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 17:23:58 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Still Crazy Subject: Words almost fail me Message: Hi SC - I did recognize where your nickname came from when I first heard it. I like that song very much. Just thought I'd let you know someone heard where you were coming from - although probably others did as well. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:04:35 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Vacol Subject: WOULD YOU LEARN TO REPLY Message: Vacol, you are the only person who's ever posted here who couldn't handle the reply form. You constantly reply to people further up the thread. Are you slow in deciding to reply until you're a few post further down the thread, or what? To reply to Katie, read Katie's post and then FILL IN THE FORM BELOW IT. Same for replying to Robyn. Same for Jim. Same for Petrou. Is this so hard?? You've got me wondering what the hell's the matter with the index... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:10:29 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Brian Subject: WOULD YOU LEARN TO REPLY Message: Brian ...I'm glad you brought this up . Ever since your move from forum 2 to forum 3 ...there is a 4 to 10 hour delay in getting messages up on the screen ....and I have to labouriously use the 'previous message' or the 'next message ' option to scan through the posts . This is so frustrating and I've not got a clue as to why this is happening ,.Is anyone else experiencing this problem? Any ideas ,how I can fix this Brian? Vacol Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:13:00 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Brian Subject: WOULD YOU LEARN TO REPLY Message: Brian ...I should have said ...a delay of 4 to 10 hours in getting messages on the index....on my computor . Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:20:50 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Brian Subject: WOULD YOU LEARN TO REPLY Message: ...Brian....one other thing......sometimes when I have posted a reply under the persons post I'm replying to ,... it ends up going to the end of the thread instead ...which then looks like I've posted it in the inappropriate place . Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:32:12 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Vacol Subject: WOULD YOU LEARN TO REPLY Message: Vacol, This happens to me, too. It happens a lot if you change the subject, so if I really care about putting th post into the right place, I try not to change the subject. Hope this helps, VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:41:33 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: VP Subject: NOW he tells me... Message: VP, I kinda wish you wouldn't keep these little bugs a secret. I just blasted Vacol for not replying right because his are the only posts I've noticed it happening to. [Sorry about that, Vacol] I'll look into what might be causing it. Meanwhile, if you know of any more bugs, please mention it to me in passing... Sheeesh... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:44:39 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Brian Subject: NOW he tells me... Message: Please don't laugh, I didn't know that was what a bug was. I just thought that it was how things worked. Sheesh.... What do I know about computers anyway? How's that for naive? :) VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 22:29:27 (EDT)
From: Grated cheddar Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Brian Subject: An example of the bug Message: Well I posted something in reply to Vacol's message at the top and it's appeared way, way down there at the bottom. By the way, will get back to you regarding that test. Actually I'm experiencing no real problems with Lynx. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:35:26 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Vacol Subject: WOULD YOU LEARN TO REPLY Message: I'm sure there are differences between what I wrote and the way Paradise's server worked, but I know that your messages are in the index right after you post, because I see them here. It can't be some bizarre Australian bug. Is anyone else downunder experiencing this? Bruce isn't. If the only other person you know it to be happening to is also using your computer to post (Mirabai) then it's the way you have your browser configured. I think that your browser is showing the version of the index that it has in its cache. You should set your browser to always load the page whether it's in the cache or not. Check under your config options. Or reload the index by holding down the But you still have to be careful which message you are replying to, okay? Because that's how they thread, no matter how long it takes for you to see it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:23:35 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Brian Subject: WOULD YOU LEARN TO REPLY Message: Brian ...as I am a a bit of a computor dummy ....could you explain to me how I can configure my browser (I'm using internet explorer 4.0) to read 'always load whether its in the cache or not ' ...i've tried but I'm not getting anywhere. Thanks for the help. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:27:44 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Vacol Subject: IE cache info anyone Message: I don't use that browser, so maybe someone else reading this can post what you need to know. Vacol needs to set his browser to always fetch the new index after a post, instead of having the old version loaded by the browser. Anyone know the correct way to set it? Other than switch to Netscape, I mean... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:39:59 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Brian Subject: Brian/Vacol Message: Dear Brian, I don't know what is going on here but I posted a reply twice and it didn't show up so I re typed it, kind of and posted it again. When the screen when gray for the 3rd time I just walked away and the index did eventually show up but not my post. When I reply and submit the screen usually goes quickly back to the index. I told you about this another time but I thought it was really just me, now I don't. My reply was to Vacol so I'll try to say it briefly here. I do not feel sympathetic toward those who M hurt. After reading heart felt experience and first hand info from ex's who were in close physical proximity to M, I had my own grip against M. Like if my neighbor and my family always got along fine and then I found out he was a child mosester. Now I have a problem with my neighbor. I don't only feel sympathy toward those he hurt. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:41:54 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Robyn Subject: Brian Message: Dear Brian, That post obviously worked. I was trying to reply and couldn't, to the original thread post of Vacol's. If that gives you a clue?!@#$ Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:47:42 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Robyn Subject: Brian Message: Dear Brian, Am I testing your patience? Sorry, I see my posts now. Now I'm so confused I'm going home. Nothing to consern yourself with. God, soon you won't look when I post to you. I the girl who cried wolf. Dam! If I can find your phone # I want to call you tommorow about the archives. If I don't call please email it to me again and I'll try next Sun. 5 cents/min you know. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 22:00:21 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Brian and Vacol Subject: Ask CD Message: Vacol - CD (a premie who posts on here) knows lots about the Microsoft software. I don't know his e-mail offhand, but his home page is at www.cdickey.com, and you can e-mail him from there. (Interesting book list on his site, too, if you're interested) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:42:46 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Vacol Subject: How I work the index Message: Vacol, I got confused using the next/previous also. What I do to avoid any confusion for me is to read a message and reply to it if I want and then use the back button to get back to the index. If I want to read some messages and then decide to reply to a previously read message, I find that message again and use it's reply form. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:23:12 (EDT)
From: It must be Email: None To: Vacol Subject: great to be a premie! Message: Vacol, I guess the view is different depending upon where you are sitting. From where I sit it must be really great to be one of the premies posting here. They get access to a forum that is designed for the exs, PAID for by the exs, and all of the work here is done by the exs. Then whenever an ex tells a story about Maharaji they get to jump up and slam the ex or call them a liar. What ever happened to asking questions about the story or using logic to discredit a story that you know to be untrue? No, it has to be a damn attack on the person!! Then if an ex tries to say something from his/her heart, some premie like Petrou gets on there and calls the person a name or tells them that they are whining. Then if an ex asks a premie a direct question, he/she gets to choose not to answer. Premies can just promise to answer, or answer around the question, or ignore the questions and not post at all. If an ex tries to answer to the threats, and the cruelty and the accusations, some premie gets on here and lumps you into a little box with everyone else...ex-premie=insensitive. You know, something like that. In a nutshell, if you disagree with Maharaji, you just can't win. Guess what---Who cares? We HAVE won where it counts! We know what we know. All the name calling and avoidance and the flaming aside, the truth about the guru is the same. Now and forever. Clarity is a wonderful thing, but getting it isn't easy. I don't dislike you and I hope you make it there sometime, I really do. VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:43:50 (EDT)
From: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Vacol Subject: Words almost fail me Message: Much of the criticism of Maharaji wouldn't be happening if he had sought to repair the damage done and make amends with his former devotees. This forum is only half a conversation. Have you ever been in the situation where you were annoyed with somebody about something and tried to talk to them about it but they completely ignored you? Well that's what's happening here. And you know what? When the person being spoken to continues to refuse to listen then the other person can get extremely upset. In the seventies when we were loving our Guru Maharaji, we had no idea that our beloved Lord would turn out like this - completely ignoring those who had loved him with their lives. You cannot condemn those who critisise Maharaji. He's brought all of this onto his own head, I'm afraid. Our friend Gumby will tell you - as you sow, so you reap. If Maharaji continues to just ignore his former closest devotees and hope they'll just shut up and go away, then the opposition to him will multiply and he will, in the end, be forced to end his mission. Maharaji said that life was simple and automatic and that the purpose of it was not to solve problems. This kind of philosophy is very damaging for those who actually believe in it. This philosophy of Maharaji's will be very damaging to HIM. The 'problems' will not go away but will shout with an ever louder voice in his ear. Life IS complicated because whatever you do, affects other people and has endless repercussions. Ignore this at your peril. Those repercussions can come back to you an hundredfold... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 22:34:02 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: David Subject: Words almost fail me Message: Well expressed David! I personally will insist.....on a response to this criticism sooner or later from either M himself or someone close to him. I need to hear both sides of the story and if one side refuses to respond I will have to seriously consider that as unethical and indefensible.....indeed I must take the opportunity to engage premies as a fellow premie in looking at these matters . Should Maharaji have cared more about his premies when sudden radical changes occured in premie-land? Should Maharaji be made accountable for the problems .....mental ,physical and spiritual that ensued from those changes? Should Maharaji even now be communicating to ex-premies and to premies about these matters? Well.....I agree David ....these are importent issues. And I am not shirking them. But I need to hear the other side. At least before I can consider things in a more balanced way. Time will tell!!!! THANKS FOR YOUR POST .....Regards Vacol Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 23:24:32 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Breathing, and gettng fat Message: I personally will insist.....on a response to this criticism sooner or later from either M himself or someone close to him. Sure you will. LET THE DEBATE BEGIN! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 23:35:46 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Breathing, and gettng fat Message: Scotty ...you are quite snotty.....a bit like someone else .....hmmmmmm....don't get too sarcastic Vacol....scotty, you are a rude and tiresome bore unless you are espousing your great wisdoms to the converted members of your tribe!!!! And to think I was going to try and control my responses .....Ah well....can't win them all!! Other ex's ...don't take this personally . Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 23:47:52 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Breathing, and getting fat Message: You could try just being honest and straightforward. No, never mind. This is more fun. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 23:35:48 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Words almost fail me Message: Vacol, When you get an answer, would you please share it with the rest of us? I for one would be interested in hearing anything that M has to say for himself. Thank you, VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 00:13:48 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: VP Subject: Words almost fail me Message: I do have a few connections .....I'll let you know ....hey ..I don't hate you guys ...I'm partly on your side ...with the exceptions of those who I would choose to ignore even if they were close relatives....oh dear that's nonsense ...when I keep talking to them......well, perhaps love and hate are almost bedfellows...or bed-follows....sorry going off again with my abstact ruminations.....YES...I'LL let you know! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 00:33:48 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: VP Subject: You may not like this... Message: VP: Don't you dare hold your breath! (I know you're just kidding anyway, aren't you?) Predicting what Vacol will do is like watching someone hold a match to a pile of dry newspapers. The result is inevitable. It is exactly like the behavior of a seriously abused child. That's why I like Robyn's analogy. Have you ever seen that program about the horse trainer (Monty Something) who learned to 'speak' equis? You should check it out. I'll see if I can get a reference. It was on PBS. Anyway, every time he gives an exhibition about 10% of the women (and some men) in the audience feint just watching him in action. Turns out those members are 100% abused children. (The experience is definitely not unpleasant for them. They are usually weeping afterward in gratitude, exclaiming that it frees them from the abuse related feelings for the first time in their lives.) Equis is a language of action. It's a bit like Jim's analogy of the computer virus that asks you whether you have a 'small penis' and then when you move toward the 'no' box it moves away from you. Only instead of moving away Monty 'crowds' the subject in a very subtle but deliberate way. As soon as he senses the subject relenting he 'rewards' by moving away, and giving space. On the open range he watches carefully for signs of anger vs. submission, not rewarding anger but always acknowledging and rewarding submission (after an initial unrelenting chase that lasts for days). I don't think this has been perfected with humans exactly, but the potential is there, as witnessed by the feinting audience observers. Of course, an angry subject will regard the actions as 'insensitive' and 'unforgiving' etc. It's pretty clear from Monty's results that his intent is the opposite. Humans aren't horses, but abused humans have programmed responses that are like equis. It's a kind of revelation going on now in the treatment of abuse. The premies are kind enough to allow me to practice on them. I'm pretty sure it's Grace, but I've been rather inept and stupid so far. The insensitivity of the premies themselves has convinced me that it's appropriate to use them in this way, though I may have to change some of my attitudes about them. Largely speaking, it's not their fault. But I think it would be a bad idea to hold my breath when they make promises like Vacol's. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 01:20:44 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: You may not like this... Message: Listen snooty..spotty ...oh yeh scotty...you have a wonderful way of saying so little yet with so many words .....a wordsmith you are for sure .......I think I'll call you smithy. BuT you love these contests of mutual abuse don't you ....you mention straight and honest but you walk a crooked road!! Vacol Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 07:59:32 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Vacol Subject: You WILL like this!! Message: They love insult because its not logical argument.If they used logical argument they know they would lose every time. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 08:51:00 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Petrou Subject: You WILL like this!! Message: And here's a lovely and enlightening bit of your 'logic.' Do you really think that Maharaji's lawyers are going to want the stuff on this site to come out in a public trial? Give me a break! You're hilarious. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 14:39:32 (EDT)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Petrou Subject: You WILL like this!! Message: If they used logical argument they know they would lose every time. Kind of like you've been doing with me, eh? -Still Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 08:44:44 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: You may not like this... Message: Show me a map. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 07:55:31 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Vacol Subject: EARTHWORM JIM. Message: They won't listen Vacol.All their vitriol is recorded by themselves too!This is the final paradox:the truth about themselves is working against them and THEY are recording it!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 08:27:18 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Petrou Subject: EARTHWORM JIM. Message: Hows this Petrou? This will get the earthworms crawling and slithering about. Maharaji is GOD. Of course he is...you lot of silly ninnies. We all are .....god...divine...and Maharaji is the big mirror that we recognise ourselves in. Yes like in the stories about Krishna ...on the human plane M sports and plays(lila)....and he mirrors that too for although we are divine we are also mortal and here to experience the joy of the great marraige .....as M said last year I think ....the miracle of the immortal and the mortal 'woven'(my word) together...enmeshed together . Maharaji told you the truth but you were not evolved enough to understand ...and that was his mistake perhaps....not realising that the westerners were so deeply ingrained with their judea/christian style balderdust....that god is outside .....the real tyranny derives from that my brethren.......so M had to change the iconography to suit the western spiritual babies(bubala's). What thinks you oh fellow wise one ..Petrou? And do you think such words will get the worms squiggling much? Vacol Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 08:56:49 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: EARTHWORM JIM. Message: Well, this is all a huge surprise I must say. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 15:16:23 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: EARTHWORM JIM. Message: Some surprises can really turn your life around! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |