Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 3 | |
From: Apr 15, 1998 |
To: Apr 21, 1998 |
Page: 4 Of: 5 |
Brian -:- Re: Paula's post -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 08:42:41 (EDT) __David of Cheddar -:- Re: Paula's post -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 11:06:11 (EDT) ____John -:- Cheesey ids egos -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:20:08 (EDT) ______Farmhouse mature cheddar -:- Cheesey ids egos -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 21:46:38 (EDT) ____Katie -:- Re: Paula's post -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:39:06 (EDT) __Selena -:- Re: Paula's post -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:38:19 (EDT) Vacol -:- I AM THAT -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 08:03:40 (EDT) __Anon -:- I AM THAT -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 10:37:25 (EDT) ____Mili -:- I AM THAT -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 17:23:51 (EDT) ______Vacol -:- I AM THAT -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 18:29:45 (EDT) ________Still Crazy -:- I AM THAT -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:35:23 (EDT) __________Scott T. -:- I AM THAT -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 20:29:47 (EDT) ______Scott T. -:- I AM THAT -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 18:36:52 (EDT) ______Anon -:- I AM THAT -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:38:52 (EDT) ________Jim -:- Really, Anon -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:51:40 (EDT) __________Anon -:- Really, Anon -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 20:15:08 (EDT) ____________Jim -:- Really, Anon -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 20:27:09 (EDT) __bill -:- I AM THAT -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:25:28 (EDT) gumby -:- Cool... Brian Please read -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 01:30:25 (EDT) __Brian -:- Cool... Brian Please read -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 07:23:40 (EDT) ____Anon -:- Cool... Brian Please read -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 10:10:06 (EDT) ______Selena -:- Cool... Brian Please read -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:31:59 (EDT) ______Scott T. -:- Ah, but they're archived. -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 15:50:16 (EDT) Vacol -:- The mirror -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 00:20:45 (EDT) __Katie -:- The mirror -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 00:29:21 (EDT) ____Petrou -:- Just another guy -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:13:29 (EDT) ______VP -:- Just another guy -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 15:01:33 (EDT) __bill -:- The mirror -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 00:39:22 (EDT) __gumby -:- The mirror -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 00:53:44 (EDT) __Scott T. -:- The mirror -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 01:08:12 (EDT) ____Vacol -:- The mirror -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 02:50:27 (EDT) ______Vacol -:- The mirror -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 02:53:37 (EDT) ________Robyn -:- mirror mirror on the wall -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:10:23 (EDT) ______Scott T. -:- The mirror -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 09:31:54 (EDT) ________Petrou -:- It works like this Scott -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:48:15 (EDT) __Paula -:- The mirror -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 03:37:02 (EDT) ____Vacol -:- The mirror -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 04:05:52 (EDT) ______Paul -:- The mirror -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:09:42 (EDT) ________Johna -:- The mirror -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:41:51 (EDT) ______Still Crazy -:- The mirror -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 18:57:32 (EDT) ______Paula -:- The mirror -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 20:57:54 (EDT) ________Scott T. -:- The mirror -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 11:57:19 (EDT) __Jethro -:- The mirror -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 10:26:40 (EDT) ____Anon -:- mirror mirror! -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 11:06:59 (EDT) ______John -:- Highly Negative Post! -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:38:55 (EDT) __JW -:- The mirror -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 15:00:06 (EDT) ____Still Crazy -:- The mirror -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:11:05 (EDT) ______JW -:- The mirror -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:19:30 (EDT) ________Still Crazy -:- The mirror -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 20:21:59 (EDT) ______Jim -:- The mirror -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:20:36 (EDT) ______eb -:- The mirror -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:30:27 (EDT) __Still Crazy -:- The mirror -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 18:49:12 (EDT) ____Vacol -:- The mirror -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:52:35 (EDT) ______Still Crazy -:- The mirror -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 20:16:31 (EDT) ________Vacol -:- The mirror -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 20:33:37 (EDT) __________Scott T. -:- The mirror -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 01:06:56 (EDT) ____________Vacol -:- The mirror -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 01:33:18 (EDT) ____Robyn -:- The mirror -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 16:55:19 (EDT) gumby -:- Off track... -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 22:01:02 (EDT) __Jim -:- Off track... -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 22:10:45 (EDT) __Robyn -:- Off track... -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:20:07 (EDT) __JW -:- Off track...-- Messiah Joke -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 15:39:19 (EDT) Wasapremie -:- Pity about God -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 21:10:13 (EDT) __Anon -:- Pity about God...yes -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 21:34:45 (EDT) __Memphis Belle -:- About God -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 21:39:37 (EDT) ____VP -:- About God -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 22:05:56 (EDT) __Jim -:- Forget it, Rick -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 22:07:54 (EDT) ____Rick -:- Forget it, Rick -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 00:51:13 (EDT) __gumby -:- Pity about God -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 22:55:39 (EDT) ____Jim -:- The Lucifer Principle -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 23:01:19 (EDT) ______gumby -:- The Lucifer Principle -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 23:16:26 (EDT) ________Jim -:- The Lucifer Principle -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 10:53:33 (EDT) ____Selena -:- Pity about God -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 23:24:22 (EDT) ______gumby -:- Pity about God -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 00:37:11 (EDT) ______Robyn -:- Exit Counselor -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:36:49 (EDT) __Vacol -:- Pity about God -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 02:25:28 (EDT) ____Wasapremie -:- Pity about God -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 10:40:44 (EDT) ______VP -:- Starrynight -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 10:56:10 (EDT) ______Jim -:- Pity about God -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 10:56:43 (EDT) ________Robyn -:- Is there a God -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:55:21 (EDT) __________Scott T. -:- Is there a God -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 16:41:20 (EDT) ____________Robyn -:- Is God energy -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 17:02:25 (EDT) ________VP -:- Bumper sticker for Jim -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 13:28:26 (EDT) __Robyn -:- Pity about God -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:26:17 (EDT) __Petrou -:- I respect GMJ -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 06:30:55 (EDT) ____Scott T. -:- I suspect GMJ -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 11:42:22 (EDT) Anon -:- Re: Bruce's peace mission. -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 20:12:01 (EDT) __Jim -:- Re: Bruce's peace mission. -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 20:30:47 (EDT) ____Vacol -:- Re: Bruce's peace mission. -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 20:55:46 (EDT) ______jim -:- Re: Bruce's peace mission. -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 21:01:27 (EDT) ________John K. -:- IK-Y-AB-WAI -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 21:28:19 (EDT) __________VP -:- Pee Wee's Big Adventure -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 22:15:37 (EDT) ____________meka leka Hi -:- Meka Hinee Hoe -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 00:22:38 (EDT) ______________VP -:- Meka Hinee Hoe -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 00:35:00 (EDT) ________________bill -:- Meka Hinee Hoe -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 00:48:24 (EDT) __________________VP -:- Jambi -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 00:56:07 (EDT) ____________________The old men -:- And the see -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:56:07 (EDT) ______________________VP -:- And the see -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 21:14:16 (EDT) ____Anon -:- Re: Bruce's peace mission. -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 21:13:29 (EDT) __Petrou -:- Re: Bruce's peace mission. -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 06:23:21 (EDT) Vacol -:- Simon says! -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 20:09:18 (EDT) __Anon -:- Simple Simon says -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 20:59:33 (EDT) ____Jim -:- Simple Simon says -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 21:03:53 (EDT) __Robyn -:- Simon says! -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 13:37:03 (EDT) __Petrou -:- Simon says! -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 06:16:16 (EDT) Jim -:- A slight resemblence -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 18:43:12 (EDT) __Selena -:- A slight resemblence -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 18:50:57 (EDT) __Anon -:- Scott! Go for it! -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 21:47:12 (EDT) ____Scott T. -:- Scott! Go for it! -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 22:13:35 (EDT) __Petrou -:- A slight resemblence -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 06:06:49 (EDT) ____Scott T. -:- A slight resemblence -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 11:51:47 (EDT) Jim -:- Knowledge and Ignorance -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 18:29:37 (EDT) __bill -:- Knowledge and Ignorance -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 00:16:16 (EDT) __Petrou -:- Sensitive Jim -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 06:03:35 (EDT) Memphis Belle -:- Who will be Master in 50 yrs -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 16:02:35 (EDT) __Jim -:- Hey, we're not that old! -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 16:29:11 (EDT) ____Jim -:- ghosts -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 16:34:12 (EDT) ______JW -:- ghosts -- more and more -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 20:10:24 (EDT) ________Jim -:- ghosts -- more and more -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 20:13:19 (EDT) ____Scott T. -:- Old as you wanna be -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 21:44:19 (EDT) ______VP -:- Old as you wanna be -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 21:49:56 (EDT) __Selena -:- Who will be Master in 50 yrs -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 18:54:20 (EDT) ____Jim -:- Who will be Master in 50 yrs -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 19:13:46 (EDT) ______Selena -:- Who will be Master in 50 yrs -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 19:16:54 (EDT) ________Jim -:- Chain Heresy, anyone -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 19:46:04 (EDT) __________Selena -:- Chain Heresy, anyone -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 20:00:15 (EDT) ____________Memphis Belle -:- Is this Daya -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 20:19:02 (EDT) ______________Jim -:- Glad you asked -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 20:40:34 (EDT) ________________Memphis Belle -:- Ooops! -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 20:57:27 (EDT) __________________Selena -:- Ooops can't let this thread go -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 23:09:33 (EDT) ____________________JW -:- Ooops can't let this thread go -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 13:58:49 (EDT) __________________John -:- The great non dance -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 10:25:43 (EDT) ____________________Jim -:- Was it good for you -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 11:08:52 (EDT) ______________________VP -:- Was it good for you -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 11:26:04 (EDT) ________________Robyn -:- Glad you asked -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 15:21:46 (EDT) ____________JW -:- Chain Heresy, anyone -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 20:20:48 (EDT) ______________Selena -:- let's hear it for the boys -:- Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 22:43:25 (EDT) ______________Robyn -:- Chain Heresy, anyone -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 15:43:12 (EDT) ____Robyn -:- Who will be Master in 50 yrs -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 15:13:56 (EDT) ______Selena -:- Who will be Master in 50 yrs -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 16:26:53 (EDT) __eb -:- Ravi Shankar's Daughter -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:42:24 (EDT) ____John -:- Ravi's an active guy! -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:54:32 (EDT) ______eb -:- Ravi's an active guy! -:- Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 16:57:54 (EDT) |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 08:42:41 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Re: Paula's post Message: Paula wrote this just before it fell off the end of the index: I wrote that message, just to express my feelings and I was using free speech. Of course, you are right when you say I could elaborate it better. I used 'cheating' and 'disrespecting' related to Bruce case... because all the time I read 'brian' messages I thought it was you, not him, and I got confused. I felt disrepected, I don`t know about you. Also, I used the word 'cheating' because he was using 2 personalities/identities. Maybe it was not the best word to describe it, but I don`t know another words that could describe better my point of view. Okay, I see what you were talking about. That's the reason why we come down so hard on using a name already in use - whether it is actually your real name or not. People who have read my posts here for a long time and have a pretty good feel for who I am and what I tend to post already knew that wasn't me posting, but newer readers aren't going to catch the differences in styles and they will get confused by it. Even if everyone currently reading understood from the content which of two people using the same name was which, people just coming in for the first time would never be able to sort it out and get to know the posters for who they are. I know that what I am telling here can bring to this site a big discussion about multiple identities and nicknames on Internet. Too many points of view can be elaborated, and many people around the world are thinking about this question. That's why I started this thread over - so that people could have a chance to post on those issues. But you never know what threads are going to become hot topics, since people will miss something one day and jump all over it a week later. It's a mood thing. I think that people can say whatever they want, but they have to be responsable for their words. I mean... free speech is wonderful, but (I think) if something is said.... someone did it. In this case, someone was using 2 different identities and people were reading it seriously, as if it was 2 people. To have freedom, you have to be responsible. Premie-hood doesn't seem to involve personal responsiblility. We come into the thing with the intention of gaining tools that will enhance our experience of life and our control over ourselves and our own worlds, and then get caught up in crediting Maharaji with the results of our own actions and as being the source of our very own experience of life from then on. Even fearing to act based upon his approval. Look how many premies don't post here! They know from reading this site that MJ doesn't want them to and that's the end of it. Of course, he won't know if they just sneak peeks so that's what they do. It's very childish and is actually an abdication of personal responsibility to the wisdom of a Daddy/Father/Teacher personality figure. Hence the 'personality cult' title being appropriate. Maharaji uses a control technique that was a part of our learning pattern as children. Saying in effect: 'You'll understand when you're older', he defers answering any direct questions and tells them that after they receive Knowledge they can answer their own questions in life themselves. He then controls when they are grown up enough to receive that precious adulthood, and hinges its receipt upon them promising to defer making decisions as adults as to whether they will share what they've learned with other children who haven't reached the right age yet. He extracts a promise that they remain subservient children to his own inate wisdom. And they then defer their questions/doubts in aquiescence to his little condition in order to be able to now eat with the other grownups. They also defer the adulthood they spent video time earning until some later point, and continue to try to earn it from him through repeated pilgrimages to his adult presence [Am I grownup enought yet, Daddy?], and through attention to his every word via attendance at video showings. Then there's the Helping Daddy around the house part, where they get to contribute to his 'mission'. It's pretty sad. It doesn't surprise me that they have nothing to offer those people who post here that do take responsibility for their actions. When you read Vacol, you know that it is not his real name. But you can notice he is speaking his mind.... very contradictory sometimes, but still, he is not kidding. When you read Jim, it does not matter if he is Jim or not, but it matters to know how his mind works. And they bring interesting issues, topics, even being completely different people. What about Bruce? Can you take it seriously? One is the 'big ego' (brian) and the other one is the 'good kanguroo guy' (Bruce) that wants the article out. How can people believe in someone that as to use 2 different identities? Is it possible to believe in his excuses? The price of abdicating personal responsiblity for personal actions and words is a complete loss of respect and credibility in the eyes of those who no longer need a Daddy/Teacher figure in their lives. If Maharaji had ever once sat his ass on the satsang floor with the rest of us and spoken to us as fellow human beings, and listened to - and learned from - what we had to say when it was our turn to speak, he might have been able to cast off the dead Guru hanging around his neck and become a real grownup person. If current premies didn't continue to sit at his feet and look to at him as anything more than a very spoiled child, they might just be able to make the journey beyond spiritual adolescence on their own. And know that they had no one but their own selves to credit in life for their lives. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 11:06:11 (EDT)
From: David of Cheddar Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Brian Subject: Re: Paula's post Message: I think there's a difference between using multiple identities and actually using someone elses identity. Quite a few people here use more than one identity, usually to convey a different part of their personality. For instance, Bill has also been anonymousie when he was in a humourous mood. I replied to a certain Ms K and didn't realise that this was actually Katie. I don't think multiple identities matter because everybody does this on the internet. It's one of the fascinations people have - to create a different identity and see how it feels. A bit like a guy letting his feminine side come through to see how it feels. But I think that using someone elses identity is a mean trick and must be stopped where possible. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:20:08 (EDT)
From: John Email: None To: David of Cheddar Subject: Cheesey ids egos Message: Hmmmm...just curious David...is your 'Cheddar' identity when you want to just be a regular old ordinary Dave? Your 'Camembert' when you want to reveal your softer side? Your 'Gouda' when you want to play the sophisticate? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 21:46:38 (EDT)
From: Farmhouse mature cheddar Email: CIX To: John Subject: Cheesey ids egos Message: You've got it in one except I've not been Gouda because I couldn't remember how to spell it. Edam was the silly id while Brie was quite profound. I'll have to listen to my John Cleese/Michael Palin 'Cheese Shop' sketch to find some more cheesy identities. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:39:06 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: David of Cheddar Subject: Re: Paula's post Message: Dear Sir David, Sorry about the Ms. K confusion! I use that all the time at work and at home (and you're right, it does reflect another aspect of my personality) so it just came naturally. Since I'm the only person posting on here with the initial K (for right now, anyway), I thought that people would get it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:38:19 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: Brian Subject: Re: Paula's post Message: This lack of personal responsibility is the one thing that has made me the most angry about my involvement with M and premies. Mainly because it doesn't stop with the individual. It affects how they treat others. I have actually been on the receiving end of some pretty abusive behavior that was a result of this attitude. I know I was in there too and let it happen. It's just that having it come packaged in all this gooey faux spirituality is a real twist of the knife. I hope the pendulum can swing back a bit for me eventually, I am still really pissed. I am thinking i should post a Journey, maybe it will help. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 08:03:40 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Everyone Subject: I AM THAT Message: Who Am I? Well first who am I not? I am not my body....I have a body! I am not my thoughts ...I have thoughts! I am not my sense of seperated individuality....I have an individuality! Then who am I? If you feel to respond to this ,know that your response is not who you are ....it is just an appendage! Ah....to feel the cool breeze of the free wind.... beyond the limiting confines of logic. To cast off the super-evolved sophisticated mind.....just for a while ....and to hear the running waters .... To leave the debates that forever linger in the marketplace of humanity ....and sing the joys of simple nature. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 10:37:25 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: Vacol Subject: I AM THAT Message: That's one way of looking at it. Another is that I/you are all of these things at different times. Regarding: To cast off the super-evolved sophisticated mind.....just for a while ....and to hear the running waters ....To leave the debates that forever linger in the marketplace of humanity ....and sing the joys of simple nature. Even to sing the joys of simple nature I think one needs this super-evolved sophisticated mind and body. Are they not inseperable? For years I asked myself these questions. Who is it looking out from behind these eyes? etc. In the peaceful moments of little or no thought I feel close to my essence which is..well.. peaceful. The degree to which 'Maharaji's particular Grace' has anything to do with this is by no means certain to me. However I don't feel that the experience of being a sophisticated creature with ideas, egoism etc (a mind in short) is in conflict with my deeper 'possible infinite' substance. They co-exist whether I like it or not. At the end of the day whatever will be will be and I will discover whether there is more to me than my body and mind when I die. Until then I will always be prone to the possibility that those experiences that I believe are glimpses of transcendance are actually pleasant mirages conjured by the powers of this highly sophisticated grey matter that I find myself seeing through and which is so invaluable to my survival here. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 17:23:51 (EDT)
From: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Anon Subject: I AM THAT Message: Anon, I just wanted to comment a little bit on your glorification of 'grey matter' here. I don't buy the homocentric bunk that the human brain is more superior to any other brain, or that we as humans are superior to other living things. An ant or a shark might be more 'perfect' from an evolutionary, biological point of view. They are so well adjusted to their particular ecological niche that they do not need to change. Anyway, back to the grey matter. Some time ago, I was going to work in the morning and coming out of the front entrance to my apartment building, near the dustbin, there was a brain glistening in the morning sun. When I say a brain, I mean a complete brain, nice, rounded, with two hempispheres, the works! When I recognized it for what it was, my first thought was 'hmm, somebody threw out a calf's brain or a pig brain'. That's what people eat sometimes, you know. Then I went a little further, and there was a body covered by an old carpet. Two legs were sticking out. Later that day, I heard that this girl had thrown herself off the terrace on top of the building on the 17th floor. (she wasn't a premie, even!) This girl obviously had some problems (bad grades in school, gotten pregnant, or whatever) and the only solution she could come up with was to splatter herself. So, there's my little episode with a human brain, and how it works. It was really eye-opening, I tell you. We are fragile. We are vulnerable. We invent cars, we invent computers, we invent drugs and atom bombs and then delude ourselves to be high and mighty. Wrong. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 18:29:45 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: everyone Subject: I AM THAT Message: When I first met Maharaji .....as one of thousands and yet so interpersonal was my experience......the experience came as a real surprise to me .....for prior to this and as I was queueing to get into the Festival hall of Melbourne , I thought to myself ...'do not get hyped into believing anything ' ...and I was looking around and thinking that most people were in some form of deluded new-age devotional hype.....and this was a few months after receiving K ....but my nature (believe it or not ) is very sceptical......; but as I listened to M I began to see him glowing in light .....I had also experienced this with some premies.....aura's of light ....and I have also seen this around some people all my life ....but RARELY LIKE WITH M......and this light was not some psychic experience or optical distortion ...but rather an experience of recognition and a MIRROR of what we all are .....WE ARE ALL DIVINE !!!!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:35:23 (EDT)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Vacol Subject: I AM THAT Message: Having a skeptical mind is fine, but here's the problem: if you genuinely perceive something, something that no one else in the vicinity is perceiving, you don't know whether you're seeing something real that for whatever reason no one else is seeing right now, or whether you're hallucinating. When you see auras, it might be that you're more 'tuned in' to something than the average person. Or maybe you're seeing something that people have a propensity to see when their brains get into a certain mode of consciousness. Or, it could be that you're experiencing a visual illusion. There is no way to know. The senses can be fooled, and when they are, it's just as convincing as anything else you ever hear, see, etc. M says, 'The definition of illusion is simple: that which appears to be real but which is not.' Great. Very useful. The reason I think this is not a helpful statement is that if something appears to me to be real, how will I know it's an illusion rather than something real? The best way for an illusionist to fool an audience is to show them something they've never seen before. -Still Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 20:29:47 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Still Crazy Subject: I AM THAT Message: Still: If the event you perceive has no consequences then what diff does it make whether it's real or not? Something real may have consequences that are very difficult to measure or identify, of course. If the consequence involves a human action, that may be even more difficult to associate because we have to infer a great deal about motives. Vacol has a real gift for inferring motives to fit patterns he wants to see. There's enough uncertainty there to give him, at least in his own mind, room to dance provocatively. Does TV violence beget real violence, and if you can prove a link does that justify censoring it? I think I see a link, but it's really hard to prove, and open to question. Is the producer of a TV program that inspires a real murder guilty of something even though his intent was merely to cash in on a 'real good thing' and not hurt anyone? What about that movie by Q. Tarrentino [sp?], Pulp Fiction? Can't we impose a surcharge on 'artsy' violence, much the way we impose penalties on pollution of various kinds? The world gets more and more subtle. We can't just throw up our hands, or dance to whatever tune happens to be popular. True, our senses can be fooled, but that's why the ethics of a magician dictate that he not present as though his trick is real. He has to leave the audience more or less in the same state of disbelief he found them, perhaps just a little intrigued. One is justified in calling he who breaks this code a fraud. (Not that you don't know this. Just making the point.) As Woody Allen put's it: 'Hurt me, and THEN we have sex. Get the order wrong and it's no fun.' -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 18:36:52 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Mili Subject: I AM THAT Message: Mili: Well, so is generalized adaptibility an improvement over ecological niches or not? I thought you were on the other side of this argument? What was that piece you emailed me concerning the 'underdog' about? Never mind. I'm with Jim. Talking to premies is just a waste of time. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:38:52 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: Mili Subject: I AM THAT Message: Mili wrote: I just wanted to comment a little bit on your glorification of 'grey matter' here. I don't buy the homocentric bunk that the human brain is more superior to any other brain, or that we as humans are superior to other living things. An ant or a shark might be more 'perfect' from an evolutionary, biological point of view. They are so well adjusted to their particular ecological niche that they do not need to change. I wasn't glorifying 'grey matter' was I? It's pretty clever stuff though isn't it? so a little praise probably would't have been out of order. Neither do I opine that the human brain is superior to other species. Of course we are highly vulnerable and I am quite impressed with that reality too, having had my own share of seeing death first hand. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:51:40 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Anon Subject: Really, Anon Message: Anon, What do you mean you don't think the human brain is superior to other species? Cetaceans are the only species with brains even close to ours (actually quite close). All the rest ain't worth shit in contrast. Granted, dogs have made novelty Christmas records but, have you noticed, they NEVER write their own material? Interspecial relativism is yet another new-age joke. Like it or not, we are what's happening here intelligence-wise. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 20:15:08 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: Jim Subject: Really, Anon Message: Of course I don't really think that. Now I know why you won't talk with premies any more. Mili's even got me to say things I don't mean. Weird. Look ..when confronted with Mili's baffling accusation that I was glorifying the brain I became desperate and impulsive. Desperate just to end this pointless misunderstanding by agreeing with the guy. Haven't you done that before? You know..like when the jehovah's witnesses come to the door..You just say 'I agree with everything you say', take the magazine and politely say goodbye. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 20:27:09 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Anon Subject: Really, Anon Message: I usually expose myself. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:25:28 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: Vacol Subject: I AM THAT Message: If you like the 'wind' or breath, why throw anything aside to feel it? If you think it is of benefit, Dont fergit it is always moving and it is a motion in your chest and if you notice it as well as everything else, it doesnt have to seem rare and special. the following is a 5 year old. math matthew burke the dog is fat. bill and mommy and ryan and matthew and mike and seth and grandma and kateux the cat. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 01:30:25 (EDT)
From: gumby Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Cool... Brian Please read Message: I was just reading a bunch of old posts and I found myself reading a message that was the last in a sequence(the subject heading caught my eye), so anyways I then found myself reading UP the message chain, (using the cool 'previous message' link). It was totally awesome, like seeing a backwards surreal film unfolding before my very finger tips. It then dawned on me, how cool it would be if Brian, et al could slap an indexer with a small perly frontend that would allow one to search this entire forum, real time. Imagine, I enter the keyword 'God' and up comes all messages that contain the reference to 'God'. Brian, ol buddy, would that be narley or what? GAGBWY -gumby Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 07:23:40 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: gumby Subject: Cool... Brian Please read Message: A small perly frontend, eh? [grin] Just slap one on? It's something I can think about. I've got some other irons in the fire right now and, if the Forum has stabilized, there's a lot to be done on the site proper that's been pushed off to the side. But maybe I can come back to that later. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 10:10:06 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: Brian Subject: Cool... Brian Please read Message: Actually Brian and Gumby, I have seen quite a few searchable databases on the web. It can be done with some programs like FileMaker Pro (which is a relational database with Net capabilities). I think that it is a fantastic idea and one which if Brian ever manages to do would be quite a amazing tool through which to look at the archives quickly and efficiently. A while ago I made a database of all the archived posts and found that it was really interesting to say search for all references to'ashram' or other such keywords. A most revealing exersize. It would be a considerable amount of work to set up although using an existing net-friendly database application is not impossible I suppose. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:31:59 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: Anon Subject: Cool... Brian Please read Message: I have a PERL script that searches directories for key words and returns the results as links. Is this a UNIX system? The script uses agrep, it's real simple but it works. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 15:50:16 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Anon Subject: Ah, but they're archived. Message: Brian, Gumby, Anon, Selena: I can imagine creating a search engine, but does the ability to search zipped and archived files exist? Even if it does wouldn't that slow down a search quite a bit? -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 00:20:45 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The mirror Message: Could it be that Maharaji is a mirror ....that we actually see ourselves in? The implications of that would be very profound. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 00:29:21 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Vacol Subject: The mirror Message: Dear Vacol, I believe that if Maharaji is a mirror that we see ourselves in, then everyone is. I don't think M is any more of a mirror then, say, your mother or the guy next door or whatever. In other words, I see him as just another person in this world. Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:13:29 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Katie Subject: Just another guy Message: How many ordinary 'guys' have led a world-wide movement since the age of 10?? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 15:01:33 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Petrou Subject: Just another guy Message: All the ones whose Daddies left them one-snicker! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 00:39:22 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: Vacol Subject: The mirror Message: You are in that --I keep looking back hopeing to find a way to say I didnt waste all those years---phase. And to say something positive as a courtesy to the part of you that has become infatuated with him over so many years. It is very hard to make the break and it doesnt happen in a day for most people. good luck in your continued efforts to move forward. Actually the worst IS true. He has no greater success going inside than you have. Unfortunatly for him, your wish that he had SOME divine qualities doesnt make it true. Certainly MANY others have looked longingly at the champion horse they bet thier lives on and finally accepted that its a man in a horse suit and so much for the march to bring peace on earth we thought we were on. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 00:53:44 (EDT)
From: gumby Email: megumby@hotmail.com To: Vacol Subject: The mirror Message: Greetings Vacol, It might be insightful. And even more insight might follow when you realize that the same might hold true for m. ie you are the mirror he sees himself in. GAGBWY -gumby Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 01:08:12 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: The mirror Message: Keith: If I were a rich man... dah dah dah dah dah dah dah dah dah dah dah dah dah dah dah... dah dah dah dah dah dah dah dah dah... dah dah dah dah dah dah dah dah dah... -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 02:50:27 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: The mirror Message: Dear Scott Blah, blah blah,blah blah blah, blah didi blah!!!!!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 02:53:37 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Whom it may concern Subject: The mirror Message: Mirror , mirror on the wall, Who has the most threatened ego of them all? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:10:23 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Vacol Subject: mirror mirror on the wall Message: The Big M! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 09:31:54 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: The mirror Message: Vacol: Your passage loses something in the translation, although the 'didi' part seems familiar. I assumed you were familiar with Fiddler on the Roof (and was careful to include the correct number of 'dahs'). My keyboard's been going south so tried something more expressionistic. Thought you didn't like logic...? My point: I don't resemble Maharaji, so he could hardly be a reflection. He doesn't even reflect my secret desires. I guess others have told you they don't buy the mirror thing, so won't elaborate too much. However, if being a reflection has a point or object I think the mirroronic strategy is missing it. How is it supposed to work? We recognize ourselves and then whacking our foreheads with our palms declare 'Of course! I have to straighten up and stop misrepresenting myself to others as God. I've got to start working for a living. I've got to start being appreciative of others.' Yeah, I get what you mean. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:48:15 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: It works like this Scott Message: When you see GMJ and he appears to you to be ugly then the ugliness only lies in you.Now this same phenomena does occur with others eg other races:if other races appear ugly to you this is actually your ugliness.But for a together guy like GMJ who is obviously so spiritual(have I just paid myself a compliment!forgive me)the effect is even more pronounced. See:simple. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 03:37:02 (EDT)
From: Paula Email: None To: Vacol Subject: The mirror Message: Vacol.... did you get inspired from Freud's 'projection'?? I agree with Katie... but you cannot say that you see this mirror all the time..... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 04:05:52 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Paula Subject: The mirror Message: Paula, I'm inspired from god knows where..... many years before I'd heard of Maharaji I would ask myself.....as if in a mirror.....who are you? are you the thought or the thinker? I would see it ...'I am the thinker' ....but who is this thinker? this doer? this ego? So over the years I have introduced myself to myself. Of course one cannot(or at least I cannot) look into the mirror all the time... meditating is one of the ways to look into the mirror.....look until there is no face to be seen...look until one feels 'That ' and knows 'That' and is 'That'. Without 'That' there is no-sense to what Maharaji and all other mystics(one of my descriptions for such people like M)...are trying to bring about in this very mindy world of ours. I am not anti mind .....rather I am pro-spirit! Some of your past posts, by the way have been very inspiring to read. Bye for now....Vacol Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:09:42 (EDT)
From: Paul Email: None To: Vacol Subject: The mirror Message: M a mystic ? Please! When you start listening to and reading individuals who really have had an spiritual experience, or having your own experience, M's pathetic lack of substance becomes crystal clear. Next time you're at a program, try finding any written satsang or anything by M. You can't. He realizes that the superficial mutterings he's been giving for the last 27 years don't hold up when you can read them and think about them (nor do they derive the income of $36 videos). Premies often take comfort in the 'message' not having changed over the years, and how simple it really is. What is really signifies is M's lack of depth, and his lack of understanding of psychological and spiritual growth. It also speaks to premie desire to have a 'path' which makes no demands (other than complete devotion-which of course you can ignore anyhow). M's mirror allows you to see whatever you desire. Very seductive. Why have a mirror which shows how things are (a major point of spiritual/psychological growth). M's mirror allows premies to continue the selective perception which prevents a critical look at him, and as a bonus provides selective self-perception. Hey, its the Golden Age, create your own reality. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:41:51 (EDT)
From: Johna Email: None To: Paul Subject: The mirror Message: Darling, are you Paula's masculine side? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 18:57:32 (EDT)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Vacol Subject: The mirror Message: Meditating is looking at one thing (something inside yourself). Looking at M sitting on a stage, whether in a video or in person, is looking at another thing (something outside yourself). For years, I told myself that these two things were identical. I now believe I was wrong. -Still Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 20:57:54 (EDT)
From: Paula Email: None To: Vacol Subject: The mirror Message: I like to read you too... specially because you are a very 'human' person. Got it?? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 11:57:19 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Paula Subject: The mirror Message: Paula: Written to Vacol: I like to read you too... specially because you are a very 'human' person. Got it?? I'm going to have to defer to your clearly superior judgment on this one. I just don't see it. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 10:26:40 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: cadbury@compuserve.com To: Vacol Subject: The mirror Message: < Actually everyone is a mirror. If we all understood that we would see 'Maharaji' in evreyone. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 11:06:59 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: Jethro Subject: mirror mirror! Message: Actually everyone is a mirror. If we all understood that we would see 'Maharaji' in evreyone Isn't everything a mirror too?! I seriously doubt that any premie seriously sees Maharaji everywhere all the time For a start when they are on the bog having a quiet nose-pick I am sure they could probably be found to have slipped momentarily, even if for only that one externally indulgent moment, from that precious awarness that casts such a rosy hue upon our otherwise drab mundane daily lives. What seems to be being said here is that everything we perceive from the external world is subject to the filtration of our brains (which as we all know is connected to our 5 senses) If in our minds we have conceptualised or 'experienced' something which we consider to be of a fundamentally divine nature, it naturally follows that we will perceive reflections of that divinity in the things that we see outside, to the degree that we hold dear and are cognisant of that experience. What varies, it seems, is the name that people give that divinity. Ramakrishna saw his fond 'Divine Mother' everywhere, Christians see Jesus everywhere and Premies Maharaji all over the place! A fish sees 'God' as a Big Fish etc. and we humans see God as a big human. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:38:55 (EDT)
From: John Email: None To: Anon Subject: Highly Negative Post! Message: The whole 'God is everywhere in everything' idea makes me want to puke! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 15:00:06 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Vacol Subject: The mirror Message: Actually, I don't think Maharaji is a mirror, he is more like a set of chintz pillows, one of those see-through shower curtains, or maybe a crocheted doily. He's kind of flashy and showy at times, but there is very little substance there. And sorry, that 'Maharaji-as-mirror' bullshit kind of ticks me off. It is the rationale that has been used in Maharaji's cult from the beginning to prevent anyone from ever criticizing Maharaji and perpetuates, maybe more than any other single piece of cult programming, the 'emperor-has-no-clothes' phenomenon when it comes to Maharaji. Anyone who criticizes, or even expresses a discouraging word, is just told that M is a mirror and the premie is just seeing their own glaring negativity. That shuts up recalcitrant premies pretty quickly. Eventually this just leads to self-censorship, if not of thoughts, at least of ever expressing them. The idea of Maharaji as some sort of mirror is utter nonsense, for the very reasons Scott mentions. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:11:05 (EDT)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: JW Subject: The mirror Message: That shuts up recalcitrant premies pretty quickly. Not if you're recalcitrant *enough*! Some day, after I've begun to feel more at home on this forum, remind me to tell you the story of how I told off Bill Patterson after a knowledge review, and Ira Woods *during* a knowledge review and then walked out. -Still Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:19:30 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Still Crazy Subject: The mirror Message: Please, please. I would LOVE to hear this story -- especially as to Ira Woods. It would take a pretty strong person to stand up to the 'Maharaji is a mirror' crap. Most of us were programmed to blame ourselves for any negative thought we ever had as a premie. So, anything negative I thought about Maharaji was just my own stupidity right? And if I expressed that, I got the 'Maharaji is just mirroring you' bullshit. The vast majority of people will just stop expressing any doubts in that sort of situation. I know I did, although I did have one or two premie friends, whom I considered cynical premies, with whom I could express some of those feelings from time to time. I also really laid into David Smith and Brian Murphy towards the end of my involvement. I was amazed that they had nothing to say. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 20:21:59 (EDT)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: JW Subject: The mirror Message: Please don't think I'm trying to invalidate any of your experiences or the way you reacted. I think perhaps one reason I stayed a follower of M for so long was that I continued to do it according to my own understanding, instead of per some intermediary's interpretation. You only had to put up with it for 10 years! I also really laid into David Smith and Brian Murphy towards the end of my involvement. I was amazed that they had nothing to say. Good for you! -Still Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:20:36 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Still Crazy Subject: The mirror Message: Hey man, You did that? Alright!! Hey you want a coke or something? Have a seat, Still, and 'share' a spell. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:30:27 (EDT)
From: eb Email: None To: Still Crazy Subject: The mirror Message: Dear Still, I would *love* to hear those stories. eb Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 18:49:12 (EDT)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Vacol Subject: The mirror Message: I think the kind of mirror M is, is a harmful one. It doesn't show me as I really am, but rather reflects my dreams and desires of how I would like things to be, mixed with M's desires of what he wants from me. I 'read into' M exactly what I wanted to see and believe for 26 years, and managed to ignore anything about him that didn't fit the picture that his stage persona and my desires worked together to create and 'reflect' back to me. Then one day the mirror cracked, and what I saw behind it was a blackness that was willing to take and take and take as long as I was willing to give, but didn't even care enough about me to want to know my name. I began to see the one-way nature of this 'mirror:' *to* him *from* me. When I looked in the mirror, I saw the love I was beaming reflected back to me, and I falsely attributed it as coming from him. When he looks in the mirror, he sees a bunch of faceless entities that he's got to tell what they want to hear or he'll have to go out and get a real job. If you think M cares about you, try sending him a couple of hundred dollars along with a letter in which you thank him for everything he's done for you and ask him a single question, and see what kind of response you get. This is one of the dangers of following M: you think you're seeing an accurate reflection of reality, but actually it's a distorted illusion custom-made by/for you to be just exactly what you'd be most likely to fall for. -Still Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:52:35 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The mirror Message: It seems to me that there are two ways to respond to a mirror. 1) I look into the mirror and analyise every aspect of what I see .,....How does this relate to that.....why is this the size it is .....what is the meaning of that being the shape it is .....and so ad infinitum..... 2) I look into the mirror and focus on the 'watcher ' as well as the watched.....and realise that I am something altogether more glorious than a comparitive exercise in analytical acrobatics. This is what Maharaji mirrors to me ....in a sense he reminds me of how I need to approach the mirror and how to look into it ....so that I am looking clearly ...and not into a crazy distorted mirror that I am too deluded to perceive for what it is. Reminds me of the title of a book I have by Idries Shah.....learning how to learn. Please don't be soooo predictable and say .....Vacols spouting more of that premie-speak that premies have been indoctrinated into believing .....that's so tiring! I have my own experiences and realisations and insights and did for years before I ever heard of M and Maharaji simply speaks to my own understanding ...that responds .....with an inner 'yes....how true that is' . Vacol Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 20:16:31 (EDT)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Vacol Subject: The mirror Message: I have my own experiences and realisations and insights and did for years before I ever heard of M and Maharaji simply speaks to my own understanding ...that responds .....with an inner 'yes....how true that is' This is exactly what I mean when I say that M is an expert at telling me exactly what I most want to hear. -Still Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 20:33:37 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Still Crazy Subject: The mirror Message: Still crazy ....probably an appropriate enough name for you......of course Maharaji tells me what I want to hear .....as what I want to hear is what I know to be true!!!!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 01:06:56 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: The mirror Message: Vacol: Still crazy ....probably an appropriate enough name for you......of course Maharaji tells me what I want to hear .....as what I want to hear is what I know to be true!!!!! Absolutely dizzying rationalization. My head is swimming. I'm about to fall out of my chair. And I thought you were splitting hairs! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 01:33:18 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: The mirror Message: Scotty...I love you too!!!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 16:55:19 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Still Crazy Subject: The mirror Message: Dear Crazy, That was an excellent interpretation! Thanks. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 22:01:02 (EDT)
From: gumby Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Off track... Message: I saw this joke on the net. I thought it was pretty good. Hope no one is offended. A thermodynamics professor had written a take home exam for his students. It had one question: 'Is hell exothermic or endothermic? Support your answer with a proof.' Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following: 'First, we postulate that if souls exist, then they must have some mass. If they do, then a mole of souls can also have a mass. So, at what rate are souls moving into hell and at what rate are souls leaving? I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets into hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for souls entering hell, lets look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people, and all souls, go to hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change in volume in hell. Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in hell to stay the same, the ratio of the mass of souls and volume needs to stay constant. #1 So, if hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter hell, then the temperature and pressure in hell will increase until all hell breaks loose. #2 Of course, if hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until hell freezes over. So which is it? If we accept the postulate given to me by Therese Banyan during Freshman year, 'that it will be a cold night in hell before I sleep with you' and take into account the fact that I still have not succeeded in having relations with her, then #2 cannot be true, and hell is exothermic.' The student got the only A. I'm sorry, I just had to do it. GAGBWY -gumby Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 22:10:45 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: gumby Subject: Off track... Message: This, dear premies, is what happens if you give up the fight with Mr. Mind. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:20:07 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: gumby Subject: Off track... Message: Thanks gumby that was excellent, I even printed it out to share. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 15:39:19 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: gumby Subject: Off track...-- Messiah Joke Message: I have a 'joke' entry since we have been talking about god and messiahs, etc. The following is an actual headline in the Alaska Journal from Anchorage, Alaska just before Christmas: 'Messiah Climaxes With Chorus Of Hallelujahs' I would have loved to have been there for the event! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 21:10:13 (EDT)
From: Wasapremie Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Pity about God Message: Well after my previous post I have a distinct feeling that this forum is just about knocking Maharaji. I'm all for the truth about Maharaji being told but when I posted something that wavered from the party line I was immediately jumped on and ridiculed by some ex-premies. There is a danger that this forum will become just a clique where dissenting views are not accepted and the people who have them are ridiculed. Contrary to what Jim says, I WAS a premie and don't consider myself one any more. I was trying to convey a broader picture of what this whole Maharaji thing could have been about. I was trying to make sense of it all. I can particularly relate to what Memphis Belle writes when she says that there's no talk about God. I came to be a premie because I was looking for and needing God. I'd tried Christianity but it made little sense to me. I could never figure out what the Holy Trinity was all about. But here were some premies I met who said that their Guru was an incarnation of God and could show me God. Now I could relate to that. So when I needed it the most, God seemed to answer my prayer. I am praising God here, please note. My problem has been trying to understand the way to go from here. Does the God who seemed to answer my prayer and bring me closer to himself when I encountered knowledge, does He want me to be a devotee of Maharaji or was that just a stepping stone that He put before me. OK so you'll say that Maharaji is a fraud. But, and I can understand Memphis Belle's confusion here, what do I do now? Maharaji doesn't talk about God but talks about devotion to himself, as if he is God. For a person who needs God this can be very confusing. There is little talk about God amongst ex-premies and perhaps it is politically incorrect to talk about Him here. But talk about Him I will. Is there anyone here who sincerely wants to feel that they are loved by God. This is a need I have myself. Loved, regardless of how I am. The reason why people may continue to follow Maharaji around the world is because they feel that he is giving that kind of love to them. In their minds, there is nowhere else for them to go. It wouldn't matter if Maharaji did the most awful things in his private life because these followers need to feel that God loves them. I think this is a common need in people. Maharaji appears to be catering to that need. The problem people have when they leave Maharaji is that this unconditional love of God appears to disappear. What is there that can provide it? Where is God? So the people go back to Maharaji who they believe is God. I think that rather than pour scorn upon premies, you would be served better by understanding them. Most premies are not zealots but are ordinary people who need love. Perhaps those premies don't post here and only the zealots dare to post. But I ask you, where is God amongst all of this. Wasn't He the reason for following M in the first place? I think many people need to be loved and know they are loved by a loving Father. They need God. Some people see Maharaji as that God. Perhaps they are deluded but you can't take away a deep seated need. Don't misunderstand me. I am not implying that M is God, only that the fact that he has disciples shows that people are looking for God. That fact must be acknowledged and addressed. And I believe more help and understanding is needed in this (God) department. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 21:34:45 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: Wasapremie Subject: Pity about God...yes Message: But I ask you, where is God amongst all of this. Wasn't He the reason for following M in the first place? Ok I admit it. My former love for God has taken a bit of a knock as of late. You see I did reckon M was kind of at least a close 'relative' of the Almighty and very small I felt in his presence at times I can tell you! Anyway since I observed some more prosaic explanations for the supposed divine goings own in M's world, I am a bit cross with God for misinterpreting my original prayers (of twenty-four years ago) which were supplicated most earnestly as it happens. I really cannot understand how he could have got this wrong..'cos I definately asked to be shown the One True God Beyond All Doubt and it seems that the chap who turned up may not have been the right fellow. Now how was I to know? If you say a sincere and heartfelt innocent loving child-like prayer it has to be answered ..right? Well that's why I'm a little grumpy with God right now. OK It probably won't last, but I'm not settling for second best. Anyway I've exhausted all my effort, it's His turn now. Come and get me you big tease you! Daddy!? Muummy?! Help! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 21:39:37 (EDT)
From: Memphis Belle Email: None To: Wasapremie Subject: About God Message: Hi Wasapremie, I am looking for God. On The night before I met the premie who told me about M, I was questioning GOD and asking what everything was for. It maybe GOD working in mysterious ways. Now I am here on this web site with lots of questions. And that is because something in my heart tells me not to worship M because then I would be confusing my search for GOD. I see people worship him , but I want to worship the one who is in my heart. So I understand your message. Thanks Also, it bothered me to learn that M gets very angry, I mean really angry! For example, he had a big party for some premies and someone accidently used his personal phone in his office. He found out and told everyone to leave because this person had used his phone! Weird! It just seems weird to me. And not very God-like. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 22:05:56 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Memphis Belle Subject: About God Message: Wasapremie, Great post. Thank you for sharing that. I can relate to everything you said about searching for God. I told a little bit about how I feel about where I find God below. I became interested in M for the same reasons that you stated above-looking for God. And I agree with MB that M really impeeds the search for God. I think that humans are set up to seek and to ask, but will we ever find the answers? Wouldn't they have been found by now if concrete answers existed? Would God do the things that M does? I think not. This answer about God makes no sense to me. I'm not going to be totally put off by one bad experience though. I'm not giving up on God or on Love. I just don't think I'm going to find God in an internal experience of meditation or in an external experience of devotion to another human being. VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 22:07:54 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Wasapremie Subject: Forget it, Rick Message: Rick, I know what you're thinking but no, I'm not going to reply to Was, even though he keeps giving me the opening ('I am NOT a premie'). See, there are problems. Although Was qualifies technically, perhaps, as an ex, his great interest in emotional succor at the expense of TRUTH is discomforting. Look, can't I expand the definition of 'premie' a bit? A 'premie' is one who either follows Maharaji now or used to, but refuses to call a spade a spade. The other thing that casts Was as a premie, in my mind, is his apparent unwillingness to scrutinize his own thoughts and instead cry 'clique' at his critics. Does he mean that one critic could be right but five or six must be wrong? Well, I'll never know because I, for one, won't ask him. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 00:51:13 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Jim Subject: Forget it, Rick Message: No need to expand the definition of a premie; why not have several categories you won't respond to. Lots of people won't call a spade a spade, who've never even heard of maharaji. That quality earns its own disdain. But the definition for premie that I prefer is a sufficiently brainwashed disciple. One who believes maharaji is lord, but denies it publicly, follows agya (meaning we may never have a real one here, because of the Internet ban) and prays to guru in his own private moments, expressing gratitude to maharaji's grace when things go well, and beating themself up went things don't go well. Perhaps Was is implying that the presence of elements of a clique, impede and contaminate the thought process by encouraging alliances based on getting peer approval; sort of like when we were premies. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 22:55:39 (EDT)
From: gumby Email: megumby@hotmail.com To: Wasapremie Subject: Pity about God Message: Hi Wasapremie, I agree with your statement about everyone having a desire to know God. I believe part of the problem is that there are zillions of false teachers, false prophets, false people, who realize this. They prey upon people's sincere desire to know God by all their false teachings. They are able to build rapport with the devotee since they say many things that a heart of sincere desire wants to hear. Once this rapport and trust is established, they can have free reigns on the devotee. Some fakes control their devotees in very perverse ways, others like m are content to keep their little empires fueled. So in that way m is 'better' then other false teachers. But one does not get good by doing bad. I believe that one important piece is also missing here (and very rarely discussed) and that is the reality of evil. Call it what you like, Satan, the dark one, the evil one... To be fair we need to ask the question where does evil fit into this whole puzzle? I believe that God's will for ALL of us is our well being. God desires to have a one-on-one relationship with each one of us. I don't have an answer as to why suffering happens, but I do believe that the evil one is constantly working at counterfeiting everything that is from God. That is why it sometimes seems that something is coming directly from God, when in reality it might be coming from the dark one. Have you ever had something so compelling happen to you that you were convinced it was from God, only to later find that you had been deceived? I have, and in fact if it were not for the mercy of God, I would be six-feet under right now. So one obvious question is: How does one discern what is from God, and what is not? Here's some thoughts: 1) Look at who is receiving the glory? All glory is God's. If Joe's Evangelical ministry is not giving all the glory to God, he needs to be questioned. That is why most of these wacko TV, Beni Hin types are false teachers. This is also why m is a fake. He doesn't give any glory to God. 2) Whatever the situation is, God will *not* contradict Himself. One knows what God says, by reading the bible. This takes some effort and willingness, but it is well worth it. This is so important since the bible is so very often misquoted, taken out of context, twisted, etc. 3) What is the fruit, what is the likely outcome of this event/experience? Is it gathering or scattering God's kingdom? If the fruit is not furthering God's kingdom then it needs to be questioned. For example, if I would be trying to shove all my beliefs down your throat in a way that would repel you, I might be doing more harm than good. There might be other tests, but I believe these are sound. I love talking about God and I wish and hope the best for you. Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. -gumby Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 23:01:19 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: gumby Subject: The Lucifer Principle Message: The Lucifer Principle is a very readable broad-stroke exposition of a ev/psych explanation for evil. I loved it. You can read about it on the net. Anyone else familiar with this book by a fellow named Bloom? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 23:16:26 (EDT)
From: gumby Email: None To: Jim Subject: The Lucifer Principle Message: Hi Jim, I haven't heard of or read the book. What was the take home message? GAGBWY -gumby Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 10:53:33 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: gumby Subject: The Lucifer Principle Message: A genetic explanation for 'evil.' REALLY interesting. You can find out more about it on Amazon Books' site. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 23:24:22 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: gumby Subject: Pity about God Message: I remember back then, M had some video and it ended with *by his fruits ye shall know him.* yeah, well, he couldn't have done me a bigger favor since the premies I know have turned out to be basket cases extrodinairre. Also, I have to agree there IS evil in this world. I don't know the definition or how to logically argue it's case. I only know it exists and is to be made aware of and guarded against. Geez I sound like a P don't I? Interestingly enough, it was my exit counselor who pointed this out to me, and how evil can be disguised in the most prolific demonstrations of religiosity. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 00:37:11 (EDT)
From: gumby Email: None To: Selena Subject: Pity about God Message: Hi Selena, I didn't find the quote you referenced, but I did find: 'Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.' Matthew 12:33 It is because of your observation that makes it so important for us to be able to discern. How do you discern, when something is potentially being disguised? GAGBWY -gumby Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:36:49 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Selena Subject: Exit Counselor Message: Dear Selena, How did you get an exit counselor, could MB or Belle as I like to call her, benifit from one? Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 02:25:28 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Wasapremie Subject: Pity about God Message: 'The Father and the Son are one' 'The Kingdom of God(Heaven)is within you'. 'Who asks ...where is God?' Is it not God as creature seeking God as creator? But the creature is of the creator.! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 10:40:44 (EDT)
From: Wasapremie Email: starrynight68@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Pity about God Message: Thanks for all these responses. I understand how you feel anon because I've had the same feelings about falling out with God. And I agree that in a way, the ball is in His court now. Memphis Belle, I understand you still go to see M at programs but you don't feel that you get anything from them. Snap! I would look around at all these blissed out premies and wonder why I wasn't like them. I have had profound experiences of a loving force that loves me completely but I can't seem to connect it to Maharaji now and this God experience is elusive. When I've had such an experience I've realised that God loves me regardless of what I have done or not done. How to know this more? Premies may look at a picture of Maharaji and play devotional music and feel that Maharaji is God and he loves them. I used to do the same. Let's not beat about the bush here, premies do believe that Maharaji is God. You only have to listen to the words of the songs to see that. This can be useful but only if the magic spell is not broken. If the spell is broken then Maharaji is just another person again. Perhaps this is what Maharaji is adept at doing. Casting some sort of spell upon the premies. Why else would people follow him and see him as God. But is the spell real? Meditation doesn't seem to prove or disprove things. However, it does show that such a thing as God is not limited to following Maharaji. I'm glad you liked my post VP and also you Gumby. I like to talk about God too and believe we are all connected to Him regardless of our beliefs. I don't think God would be so critical with his children as to seperate them into different catagories. How to find God? I will pray and do some meditation. Gumby will pray and read the Bible. The love that we pray with and for is all the same to God, I am sure. Anyone is welcome to email me if they want. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 10:56:10 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Wasapremie Subject: Starrynight Message: Dear Was, I agree that God doesn't seperate anyone into categories. We humans do that all by ourselves. Did you pick Starrynight because of Van Gogh? Just Cuuious. VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 10:56:43 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Wasapremie Subject: Pity about God Message: Was, I've decided you're talkable. Embargo's lifted and now you can have all the questions from me you'd like. Whoopee, you're thinking. Well, relax. Life was bound to get good, if you lived long enough. That's not proof of anything. So, have you ever considered the possibility taht there ain't not God? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:55:21 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: Is there a God Message: Dear Jim and Was, I jump in to offer my humble take on this subject. I do not believe there is a god in the sence that there is a big guy up there looking down from the clouds. When I was a kid I thought god was in those clouds with the rays of sun coming out from behind them. I have, since I denounced my Catholic background at 16 years, 'seen' god as the energy in all living things. My kids were in a small Quaker school years ago and I found that they had a similar belief and thought I must be a Quaker. I went to 'meeting' for a month of Sundays and all we did was sit in a circle with no one speaking for an hour and then shared a pot luck dinner, not for me. I continued on my own and still believe in god at the energy in all things, even rocks move, did you know that. That takes energy. In my mind's eye I see that energy as a kind of Jet Stream that disipates at its edges out to fill up all space and fills inbetween molecules like a gas would. I ask the god/energy in me to guide me with this or that question/problelm, whatever and this has done well by me for many years now. I can't remember who it was that posted here about changing their evolution of spiritualism by whatever they find that clicks in them and I agreeded to that. I am open to just about anything, which is how I got into M, BTW. I see all these different things (chanelling, belifs in past lives, whatever) as just ways to give all different types of people a way to connect that makes sence to them. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 16:41:20 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Is there a God Message: Robyn: I just can't see God as energy. By definition, energy is 'entropic' meaning that's it's becoming less and less 'energetic.' At some point then, 'God' would just wear out, like an old pair of shoes. Whatever God is, I don't think it's energy. It might be something that energy reminds us of... That seems plausible. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 17:02:25 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Scott T. Subject: Is God energy Message: Dear Scott, Point well taken. That 'energy' may be something that 'reminds' us of energy. Very well could be. In the same respect that I 'see' it as in a jet stream. It is just a way to relate to it althought I'd always thought of the energy as energy. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 13:28:26 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: Bumper sticker for Jim Message: Jim, I saw a funny bumper sticker today that read: 'If you have been living like there is no God...YOU'D BETTER BE RIGHT!' The capital letters were engulfed in flames. I thought you'd get a good laugh out of that one. VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:26:17 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Wasapremie Subject: Pity about God Message: Dear Was, When I read the post you are speaking of I didn't respond but thought it thoughtful on your part and saw how you got ripped up and thought that a shame. I wouldn't go along with what you said and am far enough past my envolvement with M to even consider it but saw it as something you considered. It kind of relates to a thread here awhile back about the correctness or unimaginalbe posibility of feeling thankful to an abuser, fraud, negative experience because of what you took away from the experience and I still have very mixed emotions about that. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 06:30:55 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Wasapremie Subject: I respect GMJ Message: The negative attitudes expressed by some people on the forum show a really bizarre desire to scapegoat someone for their obvious problems.No positive quotes are given(particularly GMJ's insistence that he does NOT want another religion).The critics know that if they told the whole truth people would be turned on by GMJ. Guess what happens if you hit a nerve?They won't answer but go into 'insult mode'.Watch Jim fly with the expletives and insults as soon as you make a point he can't contradict!!Its predictable. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 11:42:22 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Petrou Subject: I suspect GMJ Message: Give me a reason to believe, Petrou, that doesn't require that I toss every meaningful standard into the trash. (Have you read Still's 'First Crack' account? Do you even care?) The trouble is, you can't read past Jim's expletives (which are infrequent to say the least) to his underlying argument. I suspect that's what you really have problems with. His manner is not germaine. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 20:12:01 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: Bruce Subject: Re: Bruce's peace mission. Message: I wanted to raise the issue of the treatment of Jesus by his various contemporaries. To me there are a great many similarities to the current issues of this forum. This comparison may have some meaning for you but remember that nobody here is out to kill, crucify or prosecute Maharaji. We are just expressing some disillusionment and doubts. Others like you are quite rightly putting your side of the story. The whole comparison to Jesus is a little odious in my opinion. To compare those who questioned Jesus' veracity to 'ex-premies' one must also be prepared to compare Maharaji with Jesus. Seeing as what is actually known about Jesus is so incomplete it seems rather futile to take this line of argument. In fact I notice you yourself haven't elaborated on it yet. There are no doubt many thousands of people who regard this web site as a totally irresponsible act of sabotage, which potentially threatens not only M.s work, but also his and his families security. This is serious business, and you people could be held responsible. That is an extreme viewpoint which I would say reflects, if you are right, an excessively fanatical and irrational disposition on the part of those who, you say, have these ideas. Maharaji is someone who has made considerable attempts to propogate his influence to the general public and as such surely qualifies as some kind of public figure. In my opinion,(as a moral judgement) he should therefore not reasonably expect to be exempt from some public discussion even if that ranges from 'caricature' (being made fun of) or serious discussion. His work, if it is so 'serious' and indispensible to mankind (an accolade that remains by no means undisputed) will not be destroyed, and should not (as such) be threatened by open public discussion. In fact your choice of the word 'irresponsible' (to describe his critics) is interesting since the converse of that word (I am assuming that you also extend the description of 'responsible' to the attitudes of Maharaji and premies) is described variously in the dictionary as 'being morally accountable for ones actions', 'liable to be called to account as being in control', 'answerable' etc.... Regarding his families security.. This surely goes with the territory. All public figures must accept that they are more vulnerable to the attentions of extremists as a result of their high profile. Most famous people who feel a vocation or duty to public life, gracefully accept the consequences and take, like Maharaji does, sensible measures to provide security for themselves and their families. I can't imagine any honorably motivated leader or influential person seriously bleating that his or her critics activities might inspire lunatics to commit actual harm to their or their families persons. Obviously his detractors are unashamedly prepared to damage his reputation. That is generally considered acceptable if the 'watchdogs' or 'whistle-blowers' revelations are proven to be founded in truth, are responsibly published and in the public interest. (ie not 'yellow' journalism which seeks to defame individuals through lies and insinuation merely for the financial gain of the publisher) Katie, thanks for your polite assistance and consideration. I accept your view that a forum has value for people who want to share their stories etc re M. however I'd don't like the biased billboard out the front of the chatroom, and I am not in favour of public discussions. Bruce, I do not share your (bible stories inspired?) lack of faith in the general public. You speak as if the general populace constituted no more than a pack of bloodthirsty hounds eager to tear poor Maharaji to pieces. What you need to remember is that the only peple who will give two hoots about (ie: bother to read) these discussions are those few people who are/were affected or interested in Maharaji and Knowledge. The rest will go read the news or look at porn site or something! there are some real nutters out there. I have posted here for specific purposes, not so much to chat. I figured my contribution wouldn't make things any worse. I expect that the request for premies to stay off the net is for security reasons, not control or censorship. You seem to be a lot more reasonable than some of the others in this little band. The war has to stop before real damage is done. Bruce There are more real nutters on your side of the fence from where I'm sitting. (Only kidding..couldn't resist that one) Seriously, this security risk is in my opinion being overstated and is not a reason to stifle these discussions. Remember that Maharaji has as yet provided no alternative arena where premies (or 'ex-premies' if you wish) can discuss such things. I don't see how you, or anyone who is familiar with Maharaji, can escape the conclusion that he is, in practise, currently opposed to people discussing their misgivings about him and Knowledge both in public and within the more 'private' circumstances of his own events and seminars. In short he seems to wish to protect and even prevent (whenever he can) his 'students' from hearing the voices of those complainers who are not satisfied with their 'gift' (which they want to point out wasn't so much of a gift considering the high price they paid). If the 'war is to stop' as you put it, then what is your proposed peace-plan? Do you think Maharaji will even turn his head to consider this tiny little war that is raging on the distant borders of his vast, magnificent empire. I suppose your concern has made you a self-appointed ambassador for peace. Well, that's not so far from how I feel sometimes! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 20:30:47 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Anon Subject: Re: Bruce's peace mission. Message: Anon, I love it. You really are well-spoken. (As are quite a few of you guys.) You know, sometimes I think I read this page just to see how well people like -- oh I can't even get into names for fear of forgetting someone I'd never want to -- people like all the ex's here express themselves. Conversely, I'm appalled at the quality of communication of my premie brethren and sistern (?). Now why's that? To begin, let's do away with the prospect of prejudice. I'm not biased, end of argument. Could it be that the smarter premies eventually find some rational foothold outside the cage of faith? How about the possibility that our minds, liberated as they are from his evil clutches, relish the regained liberty to articulate freely? Did we 'find' language again. The premies certainly seem to have lost it. Maybe, premies realize that it's functionally hazardous to be 'sharp' in Maharaji's world. Take a look at Maharaji's Amaroo poo poo (courtesy of Mr. Ex), take a look at Vacol's latest. Is there a common water level? I think so. Whatever the reason, Anon, I just want to say that you say it well. If you're trying to get Bruce to set up an appointment with Maharaji ask him if we can bring Guru Maharaj Ji too, Guru Maharaj Ji, Raja Ji and Bhole Ji, the whole crew. Let's all meet at the Cheesecake Factory in Beverly Hills. I used to love that place. Or, if that's too expensive, how about Zucky's? Great vegetable soup. I really want to do this. Please, Anon, don't let me down. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 20:55:46 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Bruce's peace mission. Message: Jim...one word to you......pathetic!!!!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 21:01:27 (EDT)
From: jim Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Re: Bruce's peace mission. Message: Kieth, I know you are but what am I? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 21:28:19 (EDT)
From: John K. Email: None To: jim Subject: IK-Y-AB-WAI Message: God! I love it! This is so juvenile, and infantile, and puerile, and even juvenescent, and what's more adolescent, and to cap it off pubescent...that it's screamingly hilarious! How many more times will a premie call Jim a name, and Jim get to say, with a shit-eating grin, 'I know you are but what am I!' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 22:15:37 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: John K. Subject: Pee Wee's Big Adventure Message: John, Did you see Pee Wee's Big Adventure? Now Jim needs to say, 'Infinity' VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 00:22:38 (EDT)
From: meka leka Hi Email: None To: VP Subject: Meka Hinee Hoe Message: and make a wish Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 00:35:00 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Jambi K. Subject: Meka Hinee Hoe Message: You having tornadoes tonight? I wish that you and yours stay safe. VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 00:48:24 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: VP Subject: Meka Hinee Hoe Message: Its that pesky el nino. They figured we would have a rough tornado season. I fergit, either we are in for a wild or mild hurricane season as a result of that same el nino.where are you VP? what state or country. usa right? Im off to bed closeing Jambi's Doors. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 00:56:07 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: bill Subject: Jambi Message: bill, I should have recognized that posting style! I thought John was answering me and I believe he lives in the South (USA) where they are having tornadoes tonight. Yes, I am in the USA. Are you going to make an appearance if we have an ex-premie get together? I will if you will. Enjoy your slumber. Dream of Miss Yvonne, VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:56:07 (EDT)
From: The old men Email: None To: VP Subject: And the see Message: SURE! What a hoot tha would be. CD is probably good fun if the topic isnt knowledge but im not sure if he will qualify by then or not. I do have 2 disabled people here and a few boys and the ladies have regular medical problems crop up and they manage to get in the way of some good things I get invited to. I did manage to make a christian zealot stag party last night however, late, after the household had gone to bed. It was fun actually, I told them about my donateing blood yesterday and how I complained to the nurses that the LAST time I donated blood they managed to collapse my vein, and I laid down and they said 'Whats the matter, cant you take a little pain?' And I looked to my left and there was this HUGE cross with you know who hanging there about two feet from my face and I frankly hadnt looked at one of those in decades. I first looked at the nails in the hands and said 'hell, collapse the vein, I dont care, look what HE went through.' and that crown of thorns. Yipes! and I know that the romans would whip you to almost to the death. and so I told the groom that if your marriage starts to feel painful just look at the cross. Turned out to be a good comment to make to that crowd. They are actually great fellows, but you know, every one of them views things about god a bit differently. However, for all their differences, they all agree the power is concious. The old men have a consistent take on the whole thing. They accept that as a reality and say they just keep it real simple and straightforward and they arent into all the details the young ones spend time thinking are important. They just have a simple frank relationship with a concious power that they view as close and good. A lot of the younger ones go fishing in scriptures for seemingly important lines. Ones that are debateable I might add. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 21:14:16 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: The old men Subject: And the see Message: bill, I don't know where you are, but it sounds very interesting. You should tell me more by email, if you want to. I'm highly trustworthy (having secrets myself.) I'll tell you more about the get together. You are right, CD would be a blast to have a drink with, but I don't think he is interested in qualifying. I doubt he would enjoy watching a video with us. I didn't want to give blood for years. Then something happened to me and I had to give it a lot. I just got over that. The blood letting was the least of the pain, shall we say. Enjoy the weekend and email me if you want to, VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 21:13:29 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Bruce's peace mission. Message: If you're trying to get Bruce to set up an appointment with Maharaji ask him if we can bring Guru Maharaj Ji too, Guru Maharaj Ji, Raja Ji and Bhole Ji, the whole crew. Let's all meet at the Cheesecake Factory in Beverly Hills. I used to love that place. Or, if that's too expensive, how about Zucky's? Great vegetable soup. I'll be there. it's like..I really feel I would really owe it to my trueself to be there, if that could rilly happen. I am hungry for that true experience and it is my duty to be in that place. It's like.. nectar...it's truly a holy experience.......it is like really the most beautiful beautiful feeling and I would go anywhere in this whole universe just to have that experience. That is why we are really here you know. To love and gorge on cheesecake. Thank you. Jaysatchanann. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 06:23:21 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Anon Subject: Re: Bruce's peace mission. Message: It is so transparently obvious that a lot of the negative remarks about GMJ made in the Forum are so ill-informed and scapegoat seeking that no-one worth their salt is going to be affected. Any spiritual seeker would be turned off to start with by the base language of some of the critics let alone by the horrible paranoid attitudes expressed. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 20:09:18 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Simon says! Message: Reminds me of a game ....trying to remember what someone has said and repeating it ...usually with really funny consequences. Listening to Maharaji's words can be done it seems with at least two entirely different pairs of ears. One pair of ears listens through a mind ready to pounce and denounce......aha!...M has just said such and such ....lets tear it apart like pulling the wings and legs off an insect. And the other pair of ears is responding from a deep empathy....an understanding of the essense of what is being conveyed. It seems some people have only one pair or other of those ears in active mode and some people have both pairs in active mode at the same time. As for the healing process .....I totally support any and all variations of the healing process that occurs anywhere ....including my own.....and if some ex-premies really need to heal from their associations with Maharaji ...I wish them well. But it is not right to condemn me for not condemning maharaji ...if I personally have no major gripes with him. We should all OWN our own baggage and not expect others to carry the load for that which is ours! Regards Vacol Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 20:59:33 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Simple Simon says Message: One pair of ears listens through a mind ready to pounce and denounce......aha!...M has just said such and such ....lets tear it apart like pulling the wings and legs off an insect. A Praying Mantis possibly? Seriously though, you seem to happily subscribe to this notion of the Mind versus the Heart. I personally suspect this simplistic and dualistic paradigm to be the secret weapon of scaremongers who want you to divide your loyalties within yourself as it were. I am not prepared to abandon the one for the other. As you so rightly pointed out, it is not impossible or imprudent to attend to lifes enigmas by means of the services of both the heart and the mind at once. (kind of) Is it not possible that some things (heavy demands in particular) that are said under the banner of 'this is food for your heart' jolly well deserve to be pounced upon and denounced, and thoroughly pulled apart into the bargain? If only to protect oneself and the gullible and weak from being overwhelmed and brainwashed. What I personally hate is being told endlessly that I should be grateful. That's the last thing I need to be told! If I feel it that's fine. This smacks of auto-suggestion on a large scale! Also, about your 'listening to M with deep empathy' thing. I can cry at all kinds of rubbish movies (yes really! all sorts of stupid things make me blub, it can be embarrassing). That surely reflects mainly on my sensitive emotional state and not necessarily on the 'deep and meaningful emotively pregnant message of the movie' We should all OWN our own baggage and not expect others to carry the load for that which is ours! Vakey old chap, I for one don't expect you or anyone else (for that matter) to carry my load ! Where d'you get that idea? I am just aspiring to discover more of the real truth of the matter and to not be a brainwashed, subservient, wishful-thinking, intimidated, weak-hearted, sycophantic, hypocritical, naive embarrassment to myself and the human race! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 21:03:53 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Anon Subject: Simple Simon says Message: It's not nice to make fun of premies, Anon. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 13:37:03 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Vacol Subject: Simon says! Message: Dear Vacol, I personally had no gripes with M but finding this web site and realizing that he did indeed hurt many people badly and continues to use his position to promote his personal interests in power and money at the expence of the very people who love and worship him, sickens me. I don't see how anyone who is well meaning and caring could disregard his behavior just because it didn't touch their lives. It is hard to not expect others to carry your baggage like when you break up with someone and have mutual friends and you watch them continue to befriend the person who hurt you. This I think is different because M continues to use and hurt the people he depends on for his livelyhood. Dispicable in my view. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 06:16:16 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Simon says! Message: Very true.If you read enough of the negative messages you quickly realise that a lot of people here think GMJ wants to start a new religion based around himself.Why don't they quote him when he says he does not want to start a new religion?Because it completely contradicts their main putdowns.Simple. Many,but not all,are looking for the traditional scapegoat.This is so transparently obvious to most readers that there is nothing to fear regarding their desire to damage people's view of GMJ. I enjoy the forum because I get to meet people like yourself while I sharpen my intellect on some of these other whetstones. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 18:43:12 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: A slight resemblence Message: One wonders how some people sleep at night: Pol Pot Hid Cruelty Behind Charisma Cambodian revolutionary Pol Pot had all the hallmarks of a tyrant: paranoia, cunning, and ruthlessness. King Norodom Sihanouk, at various times Pol Pot's ally or adversary, compared him to Stalin -- but also said he had a certain charisma that made him ``very charming.'' His Khmer Rouge regime, however, was one of the most brutal the 20th century has witnessed. As many as 2 million Cambodians died, some in grisly city torture centers, others in the countryside with a blow to the back of the head with a hoe. Many died of starvation, overwork and illness during Khmer Rouge attempts to force a Maoist-style collectivization of agriculture. The man known to his comrades as Brother Number One died Wednesday, two days short of the 23rd anniversary of the day his army captured Phnom Penh and began a reign of terror. The last time Pol Pot was seen alive by outsiders -- in several interviews last year -- he was an enfeebled old man who almost looked kindly. ``Our movement made mistakes,'' he told American journalist Nate Thayer, the first to interview him in 18 years. ``I came to carry out the struggle, not to kill people. Even now, and you can look at me: Am I a savage person? My conscience is clear.'' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 18:50:57 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: Jim Subject: A slight resemblence Message: Hi Jim I guess I can see the resemblence in the quote from the interview, but that's about it. I'll never forget seeing the movie The Killing Fields. The creepy part is, he probably really believed it when he said his conscience was clear. And I feel guilty when I tell white lies! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 21:47:12 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: anyone Subject: Scott! Go for it! Message: I think we should take this opportunity to stand aside and let Scott rise to the podium to elaborate his most sound theories upon the subject of 'Charisma and it's duplicitous role within the society of Man' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 22:13:35 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Anon Subject: Scott! Go for it! Message: Anon: Having trouble with my keyboard, but here's a reference: Gellner, Ernest. 1994. Conditions of Liberty: Civil Society and its Rivals. New York: Viking Penguin. Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 06:06:49 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Jim Subject: A slight resemblence Message: Liking GMJ to Pol Pot!!!. Its this overkill that will surely work against the negative minded people here.Keep it up for the good of the Real Truth. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 11:51:47 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Petrou Subject: A slight resemblence Message: Geez. You always do this. Read the Gellner reference I made. He won't offend you by talking about either Maharaji or Pol Pot. I also have a paper by Samuel Beer that I'll send you, in which he talks about his reasons for becoming a social scientist in the wake of Hitler's rise. Same stuff. Neither will bring up Maharaji. They haven't the slightest idea he even exists. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 18:29:37 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Knowledge and Ignorance Message: That Amaroo satsang V referred to and which Mr. Ex so kindly transcribed (sort of)is chilling. There it all is, the guru entreating people to be cultivate absolute ignorance in order to 'know' him better. In 1975 I was considered a 'strong' premie, i.e. a brother who could be sent out to a small town with a few other ashram premies and expected to work, not have sex and be a satsang machine. It was called Frontier Prachar, prachar being the Hindi term for spreading knowledge (so they say). So, with some fanfare and a brand new guitar that Stewart, a really nice community premie from Toronto bought me, I flew to Kelowna to spread the word. We didn't get too many takers those days and the three of us, Rick, Linda and I (then another guy whose name I forget after Rick) got on each others' nerves. I spent a lot of my time reading Narnia, as religious fantasy of a certain kind (like with avatars and everything) was a tolerated diversion. We picked apples in the orchards for money. I got a job as a busboy at the local hotel. Linda, who was really pretty then and had a killer bod, kept hitchhiking and bringing guys home for satsang. They were always disappointed. At one point, I got a job working for a picture framer. One day walking home I stopped by this retarded young man hanging out in his front yard. He looked at me and said something along the lines of 'we're really glad you're here'. I was stunned, no make that elated. I might have cried a touch. It was so obvious that Maharaji was everywhere and here, through the mouth of this 'guileless heart' he came right out and told me. Oh if only we could recapture that innocent state! Innocence in kids is fetching because they're doing the best they can to make sense of a world we know so much better. WE think it's cute when they say silly things. THEY don't, and if they do, they're just getting distracted into mugging for the camera. There's nothing special about that. Kids' brains are 'designed' to learn to think. The better one can think the better one survives. That's the program. Maharaji's so-called 'Knowledge', to the extent that it's packaged and sold as an ALTERNATIVE to thinking in order to understand life is a dangerous lie. Not only is it impossible to step out of our realm of concepts -- the brain's SO much subtler than that -- it's absolutely undesirable. Why, walk that path and you don't know where you might sleep tonight. That is, if you make it that long. So, tell me Maharaji isn't one dangerous siren when he says: The purpose of existence is not to solve problems It might not be the 'purpose' of existence. There might not BE any 'purpose' and, to that extent, it could be a bogus question. But, whether or not one beleives in a creator that made us AND Dolly, the cloned sheep, 'solving problems' is what we're all about. Happiness, in fact, is often just a function of seeing things finally fall into place, as a result of that very exercise. Similarly, when he says: [W]hat do we use the power to think for ? The silliest things. We try to chart those terrains that cannot be charted or: The nature of a human being has become to forget that which is important to them I agree with who was it, David or John I think that this kind of superficiality really shows here's a man who has never had to do anything. He knows nothing of the pleasure of learning or work. Then he says: Be uncertain of uncertainties, that a very good philosophy .... But be certain of those things that are certain .... What the hell does that mean, I'd like to know. Maybe MAHARAJI should read the Guru Papers. In contrast: I know this breath to be certain, I can depend on it ..... there's really no contrast at all. It's another tautology only this time it's a physical one. The breath will always be there as long as it's there. I promise to hold this pen as long as I hold it. Illusory. If Maharaji's got anything more to say on the subject, I've never heard it. Did he really say: What are people going to think about me .... that’s become such a disease So much for 'accountability', I guess. There it is right there, there's that little shit's answer to all of us. He would be weak and confused to worry about what any former follower thinks about him. I guess I should stop checking my mailbox. Mr. Ex, how accurate is your transcription? This satsang is so dull and empty. Just when I think Maharaji can't look any more absurd, I'm surprised all over again. One thing that premies can't afford to value is 'truth'. That's not a Hindi word, by the way. It's english and I'd advise any premies who want to think clearly about things to get out a good dictionary and review some of the buzzwords Maharaji has so distorted and obscured, if not turned right-side-over since he started his career. Go ahead, look up: Knowledge Truth Sincere Experience Mind Think Love Consciousness These words actually MEAN something and it's not at all what Maharaji pretends them to mean. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 00:16:16 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: Jim Subject: Knowledge and Ignorance Message: I think Ill call you Doctor Jim instead of st James. You disect things so well. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 06:03:35 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Jim Subject: Sensitive Jim Message: So now we see the sensitive side to Jim.He yearns to be understood and find a scapegoat and use a few expletives in the process.Jim,give it up.Don't keep misquoting and twisting around the wonderful things GMJ has said in the past. What about his admonishment not to start any religion based around him?What about his advice to study from all the world's great scriptures? What about his beautiful childlike advice to go within? You see Jim you can never respond to these things and have indeed never responded to any logical argument except with expletives,insults,impatience,rudeness etc etc The truth is mate,YOU too have to go within with or without a teacher to improve your attitude about all this attitude problem. In other words you have to follow some of GMJ's advice(or at least someone like him egJC)to heal yourself buddy.And its gonna hurt you because you'll have to swallow a LOT of pride and eat a lot of crow.Bon Appetit. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 16:02:35 (EDT)
From: Memphis Belle Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Who will be Master in 50 yrs Message: With all this thought and contemplation about Maharaji, I was wondering who will be the next Master in 50 yrs? Who decides? Will it be someone young or very old? Will it be a male or female. Will they be able to speak Hindi? Will they be able to fly all over the world? Will they be able to take on the demands of being the perfect Master. This master will only be able to live for the sole purpose of teaching his students about life, love, and going inside. I am still on the see-saw of Knowledge. Some things are a little fishy to me, while seeking out my hear with Knowledge. Being young, I recognize most of the people around me are in their late 40's. Who will be around when I'm in my late 40's? Anyway, I appreciate all of your comments. Thank you Katie. I will try to explain how I came to K pretty soon, I can only access the Internet at work. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 16:29:11 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Memphis Belle Subject: Hey, we're not that old! Message: Thanks Belle, I really needed that. Anyway, when I'm in MY late 40s I hope we'll all be driving rockets to work and eating perfect instant food a la George Jetson. But who can predict that far ahead? Makes you stop and think though. Personally, I see the march of atheism eradicating more and more pockets of religious superstition as time goes by. Of course, this progress is slow, halting and given to incredible fluctuations and setbacks. But, truth be told, over time atheism's winning. That is, it's taking over more and more of the playing feel, religious revival and recidivism notwithstanding. Think about it. Used to be there weren't any atheists. Now there are over a hundred. See? I know a lot of people laugh at this notion and point to the religious fervour of modern Islam or fundamentalist America. Then, of course, there's the incredible impact the Lord himself has had, especially since November 8th ,9th and 10th, 1973. And now we have the additional effect of his brother, Guru Maharaj Ji. You'd have to be an expert in Comparative Religion to really put it all together. Still, I think that reason is, bit by bit, capturing the central processors of more and more people in a way that just blows religion out of the water. Now, I'm not saying that I've got a degree in either Archaeology or Anthropolgy like some here. I'm just a simple guy. But I sees what I sees. Another fifty years from now, we might look back on all this worship stuff the same way people look at astrology today. How old are you anyway? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 16:34:12 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: ghosts Message: I did not write: That is, it's taking over more and more of the playing feel I wrote field I swear it. This has happened before. I don't know who to turn to. Honestly, this is weird. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 20:10:24 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: ghosts -- more and more Message: Jim, I thought it was the 'more and more' that you were going to disavow, you old satsang-giver you! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 20:13:19 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: ghosts -- more and more Message: Joe, I don't do 'vow's anymore. Not disavow, datavow. Fuhget aboud it! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 21:44:19 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: Old as you wanna be Message: Jim: Whether or not there is a God is a winnable argument on the basis of 'predominance of evidence,' but even if it were not the notion that atheism is growing is empirically testable, and false. Fewer people will say they believe in God, but that's more like secularism than atheism. Saying you believe in God is just less socially acceptable. Atheism requires too much energy and downright faith to be very attractive. I have the 1980 and 1990 World Values Survey, and the 1995 version will be online as soon as Inglehart gets his scoop. It's pretty easy to tabulate a few measures of religious attitude. I suggest you are attracted to Atheism because you are still something of a zealot. Just a hunch. Don't want to get your dandruff up or anything. By the way, the growth in secularization is definitely a mixed blessing. I can expound on that if you like, but do I need to? The world's greatest secular religion has just been plowed under. It was officially atheist, but not exactly rational. So, how is atheism a cure? JW's argument about an unquenchable human longing for something like devotion makes quite a bit of sense. The US is clearly the most rationalistic (meaning acquisitively calculating) country on earth, and it is also one of the most religious, and with the possible exception of Ireland, the most religious Christian country. This is not a univariate issue. We are not travelling in a straight line, so who knows where we'll end up? One can only guess. Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 21:49:56 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Old as you wanna be Message: Do atheists party? This is the question! Scott and Jim, read Miami in July below...VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 18:54:20 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: Memphis Belle Subject: Who will be Master in 50 yrs Message: That's easy, it will be Daya. He's already hinting around and the rumor mill at events is spreading this bit of knowledge. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 19:13:46 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Selena Subject: Who will be Master in 50 yrs Message: Does SHE answer questions at least? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 19:16:54 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: Jim Subject: Who will be Master in 50 yrs Message: I never asked her anything, so I don't know if she'd answer or not. As far as I know, she just sings(she has a good voice) and looks real pretty in designer gowns. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 19:46:04 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Selena Subject: Chain Heresy, anyone Message: Selena, I've seen her sing in one video. She does have a pretty voice. BFD. Actually, I felt sorry for sad-sack Kim who looked kind of brushed to the side by this divine nepotism. But where's the tie-in? Does she give satsang? Is there some mythos being generated about her 'specialness'? How about something along the lines of ... all the kids had their favorite animals as well as premie servants. And the animals and premie servants seemed to like them as well. But none was as dear to any of them as Dayalata. Once, when Dayalata was only six or seven, and dad was out of town getting premies, Daya opened her bedroom door to find her favorite servant, C., crying. She was shocked. Not at seeing C. cry, she'd seen ALL dad's servants cry from time to time. (They always smiled thorugh their tears when she'd approach. They'd say something about their 'hearts' or 'love' and Daya knew taht whatever that was she didn't want any part of it!) No, what was so surprising was seeing C. actually crying in Daya's own room and the door had been closed and everything. Didn't C. have her own room in the little house down the hill? Why did she have to cry here in my room, Daya wondered. She wanted to play! Still, Daya kept her thoughts to herself and mustered a smile. That was her gift -- she could smile at anything, anyone, no matter what. That was enough for all the premies who loved her and called her 'sincere'. (After a while, she didn't want any of that either!). Anyway...... [Your turn] Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 20:00:15 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: Jim Subject: Chain Heresy, anyone Message: As she grew through her childhood and into young womanhood, she became used to all the attention and all the servants. She acquired a knack for the spotlight, quickly learning how to charm and impress those around her. Of course any effort at this was met with ten fold adoration, far out of proportion to her antics. Daddy noticed this special charisma. He encouraged it and was delighted to find, as time went by,that not only was she charismatic but she could sing! He spared no expense in giving her the finest training and encouragement, knowing then that she had what it took to win over his superficial crowd of devotees: she was pretty and knew how to play a crowd! These devotees seem to find those traits extremely admirable, as daddy knew from a very young age. Does she talk at these events? Not yet. How did the speculation start to grow regarding her ascension into goddess-hood? It could have been in Long Beach, when he started calling the master 'he or she' (as if he ever cared about being PC!) It could have been the casual remark that she looked like a goddess upon the stage. Who knows? and does it matter? For it was meant to be, how it began doesn't really mean anything. we'll have to see how this develops. Anyone?.... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 20:19:02 (EDT)
From: Memphis Belle Email: None To: Selena Subject: Is this Daya Message: Jim or Selena, it sounds like you know an awful lot about Daya. The way that the message is written almost sounds like Daya talking about herself. Are you Daya? If you are not Daya, then how can you explain the servant crying in the room and how Daya felt at the time. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 20:40:34 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Memphis Belle Subject: Glad you asked Message: Memphis, honey, I'm hip to your concern. What right have I to simply make shit up about this innocent girl who, you rightly imagine, I assume, as you know, I figure, I don't know at all. The answer is this: I do not attack Dayalata simply because she is the daughter of my former cult leader. That would be rude and even I, unschooled as I am in Comparative Religion, wouldn't want to go there. 'Don't go there', my conscience would say. 'Fine then', I'd reply. However, Daya is a young adult. She stands up there and sings these incredibly absolute devotional songs to her father in front of a whole lot of people she MUST know think he's God. What the fuck is she doing, is my question? I say the girl's not too young to bear some responsibility for herself. If she's going to ride on Maharaji's float and wave at the crowd, she's got to know what the float stands for. Actually, I'm willing to assume several unflattering things about her, yes without even knowing her, on the basis of her treating him like God. I PAID for her lifestyle and I can mock it. I could have been one of those poor, loving and unpaid servants I was kidding about. There but for the grace of Maharaji, as they say. So, that's how I see it. By the way, has anyone ever talked to any of these kids? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 20:57:27 (EDT)
From: Memphis Belle Email: None To: Jim Subject: Ooops! Message: Oh. It seemed like it really was Daya trying to talk indirectly that she was born into this and wants out. (Selena is the name of a famous singer). Ooops! Sorry I took you for Daya. Now I remember her on the stage really giving it her all for her Daddy, Playing into the crowd. By the way, at the Long Beach 97 event, Daya and Wadi sang together! Wadi wrote the 'Reggae' tune, and it went like theis Get up, get up, get up! And everyone would sing, hoping M would Get Up and dance! The whole crowd went bonkers waiting, singing, waiting, and singing for about 5-10 minutes until he finally got up and danced. What is this suppose to mean? Is is suppose to get the premies all excited and then fullfilled when he finally gets up or what? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 23:09:33 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: Memphis Belle Subject: Ooops can't let this thread go Message: Hi Memphis Belle (I love the name) You asked: 'Is this supposed to get the premies all excited and then fullfilled when he finally gets up or what?' Simply put, YES! Seems like you got it. I'll refrain from the obvious sexual connotations about him finally getting up, hard as it is (oops no pun intended) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 13:58:49 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Selena Subject: Ooops can't let this thread go Message: Speaking of obvious sexual connotations, how about that song they sing to the Big M that goes 'rock me Maharaji and roll me tonight.' No sexual overtones there, right? And then there was that initiator from Philadelphia who looked like one of the aliens in 'Close Encounters of The Third Kind' who sang that 'dance,dance dance' song. He sang these songs that had too many words for the melody. And I guess this is middle age creeping up on me, but I lived in the ashram with that little guy from Michigan who as an initiator sang that 'all night long' song that the Big M danced to. That guy (Richard something?) split from M before I did. His parting comment to me was 'Guru Maharaj Ji is not the only way.' I also thought the 'all night long' song had sexual overtones as well. Unfortunately, Maharaji looked kind of sexless and so the songs didn't fit. He looked like an overweight, pre-pubescent, dancing teddy bear. And when he got into the bare-chested stuff, I had the same reaction to him that I have to Michael Flatley. 'Please, put your shirt back on!' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 10:25:43 (EDT)
From: John Email: None To: Memphis Belle Subject: The great non dance Message: Memphis: I just can't believe this is STILL happening! 20+ years ago we were doing the exact same thing, at the end of the program begging him to dance, the crowd would be jumping up and down hoping he would dance, finally after a few minutes he would stand up and not really dance more like wave his arms around and then he would exit! that would be it! I got really tired of it after a few times. I know for a while I thought there must be some significance to it, but after it had happened so many times and I just got more and more bored by it, I realized that there was no meaning at all to it other than it represented the basic interaction between master and devotee. Devotee begs and begs and begs and begs and finally master relents and graces the devotee with a few seconds of whatever and the devotee is supposed to feel fulfilled. It's a very wierd relationship. I realize people enjoy it, otherwise they wouldn't do it. I certainly do not miss it at all. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 11:08:52 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: John Subject: Was it good for you Message: The dance was supposed to stop our mind. The idea was that Maharaji, miracle of all miracles, a living, walking, talking 'fake human being' (cause actually he was none other than THE LORD HIMSELF), could play in his human form this way or that. But when he actually rose up on his hind legs and shimmied FOR ALL CREATION our precious hearts, sensitized by Knowledge, devotion and Grace, would bask in the miracle of all miracles, a dancing creator! Now if someone could copy the ubiquitous 'dancing baby'..... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 11:26:04 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: Was it good for you Message: Jim, What an inspiration for a page on the site. Surely there is a video of M dancing like John described at a program. Wouldn't it be fun to have a live little snippit of this on the site? (Brian is probably cringing now) Wouldn't that be a telling little visual? VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 15:21:46 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: Glad you asked Message: Jim, Jim Hession used to take his kids to their birthday parties and was close to M, bill knew Jim so maybe bill was around the kids as well. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 20:20:48 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Selena Subject: Chain Heresy, anyone Message: Maybe Marolyn and Hansi would prefer that Premlata be the new perfect master and Daya has to go off to some foreign country and marry some 12 year old guy to establish her independent right to the lineage. She will then present herself at a women's music festival in Michigan as the 'goddess' incarnate. She develops a large following among back-to-the-earth feminists, spiritual lesbians, and women folk singers. A battle in the U.S. courts ensues, with Hansi claiming his father is heading up a cult and has programmed Daya into doing the same, forcing her against her will to sing sickening love songs. Premlata, after all, is the oldest, and she went to college for a year or something and is thus more educated, and, although she can't sing and has no talent whatsoever, the same set of qualities served her dad okay. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 16, 1998 at 22:43:25 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: JW Subject: let's hear it for the boys Message: Sadly, JW, that may be the *good* ending. The bad one being that the whole thing keeps perpetuating itself with different actors and a dwindling flock. Same pile different foot as they say. Your post got me thinking about the boys though. They seem to be taking a seriously low profile. Anyone know what's up with that? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 15:43:12 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: JW Subject: Chain Heresy, anyone Message: Then many years pass and Marolyn dies. Both daughters go to the funeral. They haven't seen each other for many years. At first there is a thick tension between them. They keep their distance. Premies abound, grieving Marolyn's demise. Both girls are touched by this display and that seed of emotion begins to heal the rift between them. They spend almost a month together at the residence with the golden crapper and they are lovers of frivialities and being part India have no need to tan. At first everything is fun and games, catching up on each other's lives. Daya has formed a powerful following of revolutionary yet artsi women. Her husband has become no more than a whimpering blob on a smaller thrown next to hers on stage and in their private life he is constantly tryoing to please her and stay out of the way of the many strong and assertive women who follow her. She feels secure in her self image of goddess but now Hansi threatens her position and she is ready to pull out all the stops to put and end to this dissention from her brother. She has not been crule to her devotees in any way other than leading them to believ that she is a goddess but then no one is sure that she does not believe it herself. She has begun to feel close again to her sister and so tries to feel her out on the subject. Premlata (what a flipping name!) has felt 'put out' by Daya's more promenent and powerful position because she is the oldest and Daya's inquires make her suspicious and she pulls back a bit from Daya's advances. Hansi advises Premlata to lead Daya to believe all is well between them so as to get some much needed details for the court case. Next..... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 15:13:56 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Selena Subject: Who will be Master in 50 yrs Message: Dear Selena, Who is Daya, is she M's daughter? How old is she now? How many kids does he have? Last I knew was 2. If she is his daughter don't you feel so sad for her? Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 16:26:53 (EDT)
From: Selena Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Who will be Master in 50 yrs Message: yup, she's his daugher. She was born after Premlata, maybe about 2 years later(?) What I feel for her is bewilderment. As a mother, I can't comprehend how children can grow up in the same house, however big it is, and not see their parents for what they are. Yet, she gets on that stage and sings these heavy duty devotional songs, love songs, to her father. Either it's incestual, or she believes he's god, or she's into the whole weird trip of deluding herself and thousands of others that he is rightfully designated to give knowledge that everyone already has, and reap huge riches in return. strange, I can't comprehend where she is coming from. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:42:24 (EDT)
From: eb Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Ravi Shankar's Daughter Message: Good morning all. Looks as though girl power is taking off. Maharaji has Daya; Ravi Shankar has a 14-year old daughter (a virtuoso) who appears to be his designated heir to the sitar throne. You go girls! BTW, thanks to bb, John, and Katie. I don't get to the forum much, but I do have fun while I'm here. Warmly, eb Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 12:54:32 (EDT)
From: John Email: None To: eb Subject: Ravi's an active guy! Message: Wow, Ravi's in his late 70's, right? I guess it's safe to say he married someone a little younger huh. In the movie, Bangladesh, the concert, I could have sit there forever and listened to Ravi and his drummer. And no, it wasn't that I had just dropped several hits of windowpane. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 16:57:54 (EDT)
From: eb Email: None To: John Subject: Ravi's an active guy! Message: Hi John, Ravi's on his second marriage. My friend said he holds seminars about once a quarter (he's an adjunct prof here), but his daughter performs during concerts while he looks on. I haven't heard her yet. John, you and I were cut from the same cloth. No windowpane necessary to become completely mesmerized. I saw Kartik Seshadri and his tabla player, Arup Chatterjee, last Spring. Absolutely outrageous! (Beyond beyond). eb Back To Index -:- Top of Index |