Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 3 | |
From: Apr 15, 1998 |
To: Apr 21, 1998 |
Page: 3 Of: 5 |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 00:39:56 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The Laugh That Sold Me Message: Anyone remember that premie album where an interviewer asks, 'Guru Maharaj Ji, what is happiness?', and maharaji starts giggling. When I heard that in the seventies, it was one of several really dumb things that sent me over the edge into cultdom. I was convinced that the laugh was a sure sign of maharaji's monopoly on bliss. I used that laugh as evidence to believe that the glazed psychotic look in premies' eyes was real. No point really... just remembering. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 01:18:29 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Rick Subject: The Laugh That Sold Me Message: I remember it but not from where. Hey, how about this: do you remember the small reel-to-reel tapes they put out back in '73? One had Maharaji in a cowboy hat. What I'd really like to see again, though, are the films. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 01:36:17 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Jim Subject: The Laugh That Sold Me Message: I think the laugh might have been on a Bhole Ji record or perhaps Jiva. I remember seeing some films. All the local premies would gather at a sterile library conference room, sitting in orange plastic seats. I remember one film with a lot of ethereal, psychedelic images (kind of astronomical) and soft syrupy lord music. There were a few other films I can't remember. Don't remember the cowboy hat. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 02:00:50 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Rick Subject: The Laugh That Sold Me Message: I think it was the Blue Aquarius album. The whole section is indelibly imprinted on my memory: > News reporter: 'Goom Rodgee, what is the practical solution to all of the suffering in the world?' Goom Rodgee: 'Tee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee.... HAPPINESS is the practical solution... Tee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee... Everybody gets happy... that's it! that's it! Hee hee hee....' (and fade) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 02:07:02 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: all Subject: The Laugh That Sold Me Message: Okay...so some premies were and still are bliss-ninnies....we can't all be perfect like you guys....right Bubala Jamie!!!? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 02:09:56 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Vacol Subject: The Laugh That Sold Me Message: Bubala James WAS a bliss-ninnie! That's what the problem is! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 03:12:45 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Katie Subject: The Laugh That Sold Me Message: Yes Katie ...I realised that myself.....that's the laugh that sold bubala JAMIE...alias guru Jimji ...a little short changed. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 08:27:36 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Katie Subject: The Ex-files Message: Katie you can do better than this.Derogatory reminiscing??I'm sure you'll look back on this one day and wonder how the hell you could rely on weak insults to hold the Ex-files together.Are you too unaware of the constant habit of the Ex people in the petty insult department?? There is really a big scientifically sound theory for not holding grudges for more than even a few days,unless of course you have been involved in something major like a tragedy of some kind.Even then people are counselled to get things off their minds and GO ON.In this particular Ex-thing once the participants start to devolve into petty insult then its a really unhealthy sign of not being able to go on with their lives and they may need outside help.eg counselling.By the way all counsellors will probably see it as your personal problem and not as anything to do with any old guru thing.That's all long gone. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 22:10:31 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: None To: Petrou Subject: The Ex-files Message: Check the above thread carefully, Petrou, and I think you'll find not a single derogatory comment about anybody (but you'll soon find a few derogatory comments about yourself if you carry on like this, barging in with nothing interesting to say). Listen. We're just chatting about old times. The reason 'The Practical Solution' is indelibly imprinted on my memory, is because - like Rick - it had a profound significance for me once. Is it so very wrong to reminisce? Can't speak for the others but - watch my lips - I'm smiling even as I write. I'm too old and ugly to be bothered with grudges, and the main reason I come here is the smell of roast premie. (I bet Jim is a great Barbeque chef.) BTW, do you remember The Practical Solution? - or The Great Declaration, for that matter? Come to think about it, just how much do you really know about Prem Rawat? And do PLEASE tell us more about the big scientifically sound theory for not holding grudges for more than even a few days Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 05:02:22 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Nigel Subject: The Ex-files Message: Anyone knows that holding grudges is bad for your health.You'll wind up with an ulcer nursing and pampering these woes.Go and see a doctor. Thank God for the Net:we can all sit back and read the insults that you say don't exist.Have a read of my entry to earthworm Jim below.It involves the ease of taking legal action myself from this desk.Read it and weep.Or will this whole thing mysteriously disappear when reality hits?? Isn't it odd how one little black duck can screw this whole show with a few well chosen words of truth! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 02:43:53 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: nigel Subject: The Laugh That Sold Me Message: Thanks Nigel, that's it exactly. I should probably do Scientology to get that imprint out of my brain. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 07:01:51 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Rick Subject: The Laugh That SOULED me Message: Try to remember how distasteful it was when people judged GMJ for his ordinary appearance and how superficial they seemed to you back then.Now,go to a mirror and look at yourself while you think this and you will see the same superficial person in the mirror.Presto chango,you have gone backwards into personal insult again,Some of you are starting to do it without even being aware of it which could mean you need real therapy,soon. Try deep breathing and stopping your thoughts for a few seconds and then you could try to get back to using rational argument instead of weak petty insults. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 02:22:01 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Rick Subject: What sold me Message: Rick - was just reading your message and trying to figure out what finally sold me (besides my best friend hitchiking back from Oregon and saying she'd found God). I think it was singing arti in the DC ashram. It was (at that time) in a not-so-great part of town. All the streets around the ashram has those sodium-vapor crime-deterrent lamps that turn the sky pink. Plus one could always hear police helicopters overhead, cars racing and honking, people yelling, etc. Turning off all the lights in the room and singing arti just seemed so peaceful in comparison - and it WAS peaceful, too. A little island of peace away from the craziness of the world. No point, again, just remembering. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 12:29:12 (EDT)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Katie Subject: What sold me Message: I was almost sold by the question-and-answer session the day before I received Knowledge. I had never seen such depth and subtlety, especially in a 14-year-old boy. But I was not sold until the day after the Knowledge session, at which point I saw that Knowledge was exactly what Maharaji had claimed it was. -Still Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 02:46:18 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: Rick Subject: The Laugh That Sold Me Message: I have that on tape. I have played that tape to about 10 people and some of them were children. I tell you the truth I was always dissappointed because NO ONE liked his laugh. NO ONE laughed along. My wife pissed me off because she said it was a crazy laugh. I did not understand why no one would find anything good in it. Even the kids! I did think after that that maybe it was one of those acid trip laugh sessions. This was when I still was a premie mind you. I had accepted from input that he had done acid at least once. He did make a comment about what lsd or acid is like to experience. I have that quote here also. somewhere. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 11:52:50 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: bill Subject: The Laugh That Sold Me Message: btfb, I know, I always expected people to have a divine realization when I played that clip. Instead, they heard an adolescent having a good giggle. For me, it was proof that maharaji had reached the state of LSD without the drug. Who knows, maybe he was tripping. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 20:48:49 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Letter from Japan Message: Here's a letter published in that 1978 English premie publication Rick just sent me. (Warning - hardcore!): Dear Anth, Jai Satchitanand. I've been meaning to write for a long time after my first reading of 'All God's Children' which by His Grace I received from Julian on the first day of Hans Jayanti, Rome, last year, and which just blew away all the misgivings I had about being in a situation where it is impossible to just hop on a bus and see Our Lord. The satsang in it ws so powerful thait jsut led me once more to focus on the inner clarity within and it made me so happy to see that childcare was growing in Lodnon too after such a rocky beginning. Really, our Lord's tender loving care, when also manifested in premies' lives is such a beautiful gift to experience. Hachi and I, Satya and Kazumi and one to be find oruselves now in Kyoto, a small community of one ashrma with five premies and one premie house where we live, but even here the experience never changes, so long as we can do satsang, service and meditation every day of our life and never lose focus on Guru Maharaj Ji. Really we have no choice but to give our all, our everything tou our Lord, if we hold bakc a little, if we don't try as much as we can then it's as if we are cheating Him of what is really His. For a long time I was finding it difficult to find a whole hour to meditate. At night, seven month's pregnant, I was just too stiff to even sit upright and would just, in singing arti to the children to sleep, I also would fall asleep till morning when a little voice would asy, 'Mama, I'm hungry, I want breakfast.' But a few days ago, I had this beautiful dream of our Lord adn I woke up after it was 4 a.m. and I really wanted to meditate, determined not to fall asleep, wnet downstairs, brushed my teeht, drank soem grapefruit juice and just sat for a whole hour. My body, being rested, faded away, and my mind, being so early, had nothing to tihnk about or plan for. And by His grace, every morning, it's been so easy for He wakes me as the sun begins to rise. When we are children, we don't understand why our parents want us to go to school, or do this thing or another, we just have to trust that through their love they are always putting us in the best place for us to grow. But now it is our Lord tht is doing this, we really don't hae any choice but to surrender to Him. Surrender to this crazy world or surrender to Guru Maharaj Ji. It's like sometimes we can't understnad why our mothers wouldn't let us eat 20 boxes of smarties a day when we were little, but now we can understand, she was jsut trying to protect us. Before, I could never realize deep in my heart that in Him, in Guru Maharaj Ji, we have everything, but now we are jsut beginning to see this. Like we are all married to Guru Maharaj Ji, who can give us more love, more satisfaction than our Lord? We don't need husbands and families to pracise Knowledge, to find happiness. Maybe at first we think we do, but I'm jsut finding that the only purpose is to bring up children for Guru Maharja Ji, the only reason that I have a family is that He ahs given me this service. Really it's so beautiful to serve Him -- in this way, or to be his Bride and serve Him in an 'all the way' situation, in an ashram, are two ways in which we can dedicate our bodies to Him. So please, if you print any more 'All God's Chidlren' send me a copy. Love to Dot and your son and all brothers and sisters. Venetia. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 03:57:35 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Everyone Subject: A question for anyone Message: Does anyone know who BTW is ? and what those initials stand for? Does Bubula know? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 10:13:58 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Vacol Subject: In case you're serious Message: BTW is shorthand for 'by the way'. BTW, you'll see it used here a lot. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 10:37:21 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Brian Subject: In case you're serious Message: Who knows what it really means, Brian? It's all a matter of interpretation, IMHO. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 11:01:50 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Scott T. Subject: In case you're serious Message: I'm pretty sure that's what it stands for. I looked it up in The Dummy's Guide To Ex-Cult-Site Webmastering. It was on page 23, BTW... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 22:13:13 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: Letter from Japan Message: Jim, Did you say that you had the parenting magazine itself? If so, please post more from it. VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 20:42:23 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Everyone Subject: A proposal; to Brian Message: I would like to propose that you , Brian...reprimand some of the ex-premies for breaking major codes of internet protocol....ie;1) revealing the real names of others who for their own reasons choose to use nick-names or pseudonyms......2).and those who pretend to be someone else ,including Maharaji himself. Will you be consistent in your wanting to keep things in check. If you don't know who I am referring to please ask me and I will tell you Regards Vacol Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 21:00:40 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Vacol Subject: A proposal; to Brian Message: Kieth, you little weenie, There is no 'internet protocol' for keeping your identity secret. You'd have better luck invoking 'common courtesy' but even that would fail. I never promised to keep your 'secret' and, when you emailed me your bogus promise to discuss things fairly, I siezed upon your name with relish. Ahh, that was satisfying, I thought as I posted it the first time. Not bad, I still said, after the second. Enough secrecy, already, Mr. Simons. Really, I don't respect any aspect of your cult trip and, I particularly don't respect you. So, now you've seized on some stupid little point. Look, dummy, if you didn't want me to have your name, why email it? As for impostors, are you kidding? Maharaji has been posing as the LORD for god's sake for 32 years! Kieth is a weenie, na na na na na na! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 21:10:45 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Jim Subject: A proposal; to Brian Message: I know who I am ....but who are you? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 00:52:28 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Jim Subject: A proposal; to Brian Message: Jim, you intellectual schmendrick, how could you fall for this trick? Even though I'm on your side, you must be taken to task for this; you proclaimed you were through with premies, and slipped once a few days ago. You claimed innocence and confusion but I knew better. Now only a short time later, you're in the bar ordering a glass of milk and then switching to tequilla. What's up, bubala? Look I know you need to protect your good name, and Vacuous Vacol really through you a hostile curveball, but it was only last week you hit bottom. You really need to get a grip . Now, what was his name Kieth, with an 'ie'? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 01:17:48 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Rick Subject: A proposal; to Brian Message: Rick, You little shmuck (sorry, I'm running out), I confess, I talked with a premie already. So? My hands are soiled? Look, it's not like I married a shiksa. So I'm a putz. So, big deal. For dis you needed a master? Ah, what's wrong vid you? Soak your shmata in some seltzer water already. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 01:45:42 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Jim Subject: A proposal; to Brian Message: Schmecklehead, Look it's just a little friendly prodding to get you back in the game of life. Lots of chutzpah goes well with tequilla, but not milk. Let's get out there and dish it to Bruce and Petrou and Participant. If I live vicariously off your grapples I can learn something. And laugh at their strategy, which must be to tucker you and all of us out with tedious, unending psuedo-discussions. Get back on the horse and lassoo some nitwits. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 06:44:00 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Jim Subject: Redneck Jim. Message: Beautiful!! Typical of the low ethical standards and childnessness so typical of the average GMJ knocker.You are providing your own self destructive behaviour.Wow.How brilliant.This is the amazing thing about the truth:it can't really be contradicted by petty,ignorant behaviour at all.You are actually destroying yourself on the Net.Please keep it up.Do you do any peewee hermann?? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 23:52:36 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Vacol Subject: A proposal; to Brian Message: Hi Vacol - Here I am speaking for Brian again - he may have more to say on this subject himself. You proposed that Brian reprimand people for: 1) revealing the real names of others who for their own reasons choose to use nick-names or pseudonyms...... 2).and those who pretend to be someone else ,including Maharaji himself. As far as the first point goes (revealing the real names of people who use pseudonyms) - I am sorry that this happened to you, and I agree that it's not a courteous thing to do. However, we don't have a rule on the forum against it. Brian and I have a personal policy of not revealing people's real names and/or e-mail addresses if they ask for privacy when e-mailing us, but we can't make everyone else who posts on the forum do this. (You can get a pseudonymic e-mail address from rocketmail.com, and a number of other places, if you'd like.) As far as reprimanding people who pretend to be someone else, it was my impression that that rule was in place. Usually, those posts are deleted and the person is warned. If the person continues posting under someone else's identity, then their specific IP is blocked. People DO need to let Brian know if someone is posting under their name - he can't tell just from reading the posts. I am not aware of any recent postings under Maharaji's name, but maybe I've just missed them. Jim did post a Maharaji parody recently, but he posted it under his own name. Regards, Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 00:30:18 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Katie Subject: A proposal; to Brian Message: Thankyou Katie. At least I have exposed Jim for the low life that he is . Quote from a part of Jims response to Mili's discovering his intention to mislead people . 'Wow ,Mili, looks like you caught me fair and square. Yes, for you I was trying to mislead people into thinking Maharaji said that............You got me . I admit just like you , I am a liar and a cheat.' Guru Jimji's finest words ......the most truthful he has been! And for commiting this low-life ,foolish, act we should let him continue with his desperate games unabated. Ah well I am the outsider here I GUESS! For those who want to read the post from jim in question .....that was clearly posted by him but was meant to appear as if the Maharaji quote (that was quite long) had been sent to Mili and Mili had sent it to Jim......is now in the archives Around April 4or5th....and headed 'Mili's brain disorder' Also Anon if you had read my posts a little more carefully you would have realised that my remarks about ex's were clearly only intended for some . Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 01:59:17 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Vacol Subject: A proposal; to Brian Message: Dear Vacol - If I recall the post in question correctly, I think that Jim was joking (ditto for his post that you quoted to Mili above.) He posted a parody of M that was (I thought) funny, and not to be taken seriously. Apparently some people did take it seriously - I'm surprised that they could actually think that M would say the kind of things that Jim said in his parody, but I guess it's possible, especially if English is not your native language. I personally like Jim very much, although we do have our differences and we've gotten into some arguments. I don't think he's a low-life. I think he's angry (possibly hurt as well) and wants some answers about what happened to him when he was a premie. I don't agree with some of his postings, but I do understand why he is angry. I find it very difficult to understand why premies keep feeling like they have to answer his posts and debate with him. I have seen several premies become obsessed with trying to disprove or demonize Jim, which distracts them from the original ideas that they hoped to discuss on the forum. Vacol, your posts have expressed such a wide range of emotions and feelings and thoughts about Maharaji that I find it difficult to understand what you really think and feel about him. Your postings sometimes appear to contractict themselves. Sometimes I feel that you are really open to the ex-premie's experiences and sometimes I don't. I've seen other people on here go through this kind of see-saw posting while trying to figure out that they think about Maharaji, but I'm not sure if this is what you are doing or not. I am not sure what you really think at this point - perhaps you are still working it out as well. Regards from Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:38:15 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Katie Subject: Vacol's openness Message: Katie: I used to think he was working it out. Now I just think he's fundamentally dishonest. There are a few posts where he reveals himself, unintentionally of course. Has it occurred to you that there might be a strategy behind a declaration of openness? If not a conscious strategy then at least a self deception that must be very similar to Maharaji's own? I imagine Himself thinks of himself in very much the same terms Vacol thinks of him, never really getting to the heart of the matter but managing the appearance of being open. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:23:22 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Jim's big admission Message: Vacol: You can't actually be this stupid. It has to be an act. You fill me with wonder. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 01:47:54 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: My apology to Kieth Message: Hardly. LET THE DEBATE BEGIN!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 02:07:48 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Meshugenah Message: Jimelah- Wassamatter with you, anyway? You gotta problem with being polite or something? I may be a shiksa, but I know one of you meshugenah boys when I see one. (You too, Rick. Mili, also.) Regards from Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 02:38:22 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Katie Subject: Meshugenah Message: Katie, As you know, all Jewish boys want to marry schiksas. They talk tough in the chat rooms, but when they get home, they defer to the Mrs. As Jackie Mason said, 'Da Jews got da toughest army in the world. Dey got jet fighter pilots dats the best, and can beat 'em all. But tell me something, if you see four Jewish guys walking down the street, do you cross the street cause you're afraid? No, never will you shrink from fear from Jewish guys walking down the street. But if it's four Italian guys, or black guys, you better watch out. Italy's army wouldn't last a minute in a war, but you still wouldn't want to run into four Italian guys in a dark alley.' Rick Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 14:46:16 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Rick Subject: Meshugenah Message: Rick - thanks for the story. Just one small point: as most Jewish moms know, the truth is that all shiksas want to marry Jewish boys. Jewish boys just want to date shiksas. There's a difference. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:57:52 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: shiksah Message: Katie, What does that word mean? VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 22:04:50 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: VP Subject: shiksah Message: Non-Jewish female. I'm not sure if it just refers to Christians or not. I had several Jewish boyfriends/friends, so I know a little Yiddish. (Enough to harrass Rick, Jim, and Mili, anyway). Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 22:10:23 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: shiksah Message: Katie, Okay, got it, thanks. Hey, I just thought of something, we are pathetic! It's Saturday night and here we are...well, you have an excuse. As soon as the Austrailian sun rises, I can hear the response to this one, 'Yeah, VP, you guys are pathetic.' Okay, I'll laugh in advance-hahahahaha! Talk to you later. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 01:05:59 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Vacol Subject: Where 'fairness' ends Message: Let me see if I got this straight... You sent Jim your email address and he printed your name on this forum? And you want him repremanded for doing this? For the sake of consistancy, right? Well, fair's fair, Vacol. I don't think anyone would blame you if you were to print Jim's name on premie.org in great big letters. Sounds to me like he has it coming, actually. And Mili's not using the domain name anymore. It's back in the Internic pool if you want to grab it. Let me know when you have it set up and I'll link to it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 07:00:30 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Katie Subject: responding to Katie Message: Dear Katie, I'll try and respond to some of the comments you have made. Firstly I appreciate your comments about Jim . I realise he is hurt ...but he just goes a little too far at times...and someone has to try and pull him back into line .....and I don't mind the occasional scrap in the gutter....it's better than holding emotions in and then getting an ulcer. You as I feel many others including some premies are confused by my capacity to take many sides.....'where do I really stand?' Am I experiencing an identity crisis? No...no... it's quite simple ....There are a few things about which I can say ....I know .....and the rest I play the field. That's not a mid-life crisis ....I'm a bit past that now ....but my psyche's orientation....and has been since I was a kiddie. So what do I know? Katie ....I am alive ....I didn't need M to tell me that .....and I naturally feel that this life I have and this individuality I have is jam-packed full of significance .....that's my experiential awareness. I have tried to understand this 'feeling' of meaningfulness since I could express myself.....;EG; when I was a young kid I shared my dreams and tried to interpret their meanings with a boy who felt the same need. To be continued Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 07:16:22 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Katie.. Subject: responding to Katie...2 Message: Sorry but a few times I've lost a post by trying to type too much and then getting cut off . So what I'm getting at is that I am an explorer. I don't have all the answers. I have never been a good example of a premie . I don't like the going on in e.v ....I don't feel a deep empathy with a lot of premies , maybe even most ...including many instuctors. I do have my doubts about Maharaji on the level of ethical values. I am a solitary type .....I live a quite life style. I have had very little to do with the premie community...and when I have tried to get involved I have quickly realised that it is not for me . My relationship with Maharaji is a simple one .....very uncomplicated ...and honestly I was so amazed to discover such traumatised souls like those who come here, and despite getting riled by some I do care for the pain that some are in and I am trying to understand. It seems to me that m's approach to life is very over simplified for a lot of people .....people who have complex natures. And I personally feel that M should have people within his set-up who are qualified to help people who are experiencing mental and/or emotional difficulties ......or spiritual crisis and confusion......in fact as you would realise I have many critical thoughts .....But katie in the end I am just little old me and I just try my best to express the various parts of my nature and I love knowledge! Yours Vacol Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 07:46:51 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Katie Subject: responding to Katie...3 Message: One other point ....I find it curious that many people ....premies and ex's need to take such extreme positions ....why? Is life not an unfolding ,.....and isn't openess the best way to learn .,....and surely m is right when he points out that we need to learn to trust our own selves ....and if that happens with M's help or some other way ....what does it matter. M is not the be all and all for me .....but I WILL NOT ...ridicule people for the paths they choose even if they are associated with bad experiences from my own past ...and indeed I do have such past associations . M maybe is the living master of our times or he may not be .....I am not in a position to know! I could share my positive ,subjective experiences of Maharaji on this forum but I feel that that is like waving a red cloth in front of a bull .....so I shall not waste my time doing that . It is really frustrating to say the least to share ones experiences and be boxed into a ' aha....typical premie type defence mechanisms box'.....i'm allowed to be critical here but for the most part woe to me if I dare say anything positive about M or premies . Katie I do find the extreme position that a lot of ex's have , despite their hurt perspectives like an inpenetrable wall ....just as ex's often find premies the same way ....and I do too, very often .....OH, dear that really does place me outside of both camps .....so be it!!!!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:52:38 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Vacol Subject: responding to Katie...3 Message: Dear Vacol - I'll try to respond to some of the points you made - I know I won't get all of them. You spoke about having a relationship with Maharaji - and apparently you have some personal and subjective examples of this (I can see why you don't want to put them on the forum!). I find it hard to understand how premies can 'have a relationship' with Maharaji when they don't actually know him. I never felt this way when I was a premie. I can see how someone could 'have a relationship' with Knowledge, but not with M. Do you mean that you develop some kind of relationship with him by hearing him speak and listening to videos, etc? That seems one-sided to me. You said that the ex-premies on here are not open about Maharaji. I know that is true for me, and I am surprised that you would expect it. I don't consider this close-minded either. Maharaji says to 'give it a fair chance' Well, I feel that I honestly 'gave it a fair chance', and I didn't like it or want to be a part of it. All the exes here have been a part of Maharaji's organization in some way at one point or another and have chosen to opt out. Thus the fact that we feel negative or indifferent towards him shouldn't come as a shock. This is, after all, a forum for EX-premies (although premies are allowed to participate.) I am trying to understand your explanation of why you seem to express such different viewpoints at different times. I realize that you have conflicting feelings about M, premies, knowledge, etc, and that you are still trying to figure out what you feel. It still is confusing to me, and I think others, when you express these conflicting feelings on the forum without qualification. I think I said earlier that it makes it difficult to have a conversation with you, since you seem to have different feelings at different times, and to feel quite passionate about each feeling while you are having it. I hope I addressed at least some of what you said, and that I interpreted your statements correctly. Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:23:23 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Katie's patience Message: Katie, Your patience is amazing. Do you think Kieth can even THINK on your level, let alone articulate? It's close to inter-special. I AM PREMIE..... I AM DEVO Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 00:00:14 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Katie Subject: responding to Katie...3 Message: I shall respond to some points you have made ....but first I'd like to say to Jim...stop revealing your envy and I would appreciate it if you would take your venom elsewhere because quite frankly feel most people here are sick and tired of it .....even if they also feel some sense of obligation to protect their forum bubala despite his histionics. Okay....Katie ...don't worry about what seems to be my ever-shifting views....we don't have to understand everything about each other. But in regards to the issue of ....how is it possible to have a personal relationship with M .....I can only try to find words for what is most difficult to describe and which will surely be ridiculed by some ...never mind ....the relationship is really subtle.....my lucid dreams ..that I have had all my life are very very real....just another type of real....reality.... and I have had many profound M dreams .....also experiences that too sacred for me to share on a forum like this which I know you will understand.....;When I asked Charanand at Amaroo how I could get closer to M , he replied that if I meditate ( practice knowledge) and do service (from my perspective contributing to this forum is doing service ...but that is not my motivation).. then I would be close to him and he close to me . Don't ask me how that works but it does .....on some kind of energy level. But I shall expose myself to even more ridicule (I CAN imagine some ex's licking their greedy lips) I have worked as a practicing psychic for 26 years. In other words I am open to subtle energies ...that is simply second nature to me . There.....get stuck in lads . Thanks for your post Katie.(get well soon!) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 00:23:38 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Vacol Subject: responding to Katie...3 Message: Dear Vacol - just to let you know I read your post and will respond later. Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 00:26:39 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Vacol Subject: P.S. Message: Do you have an e-mail address? (I won't publish it on the forum!) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 01:30:57 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Katie Subject: P.S. Message: Katie, Is this where I get to razz you? Rick Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 01:56:06 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Rick Subject: P.S. Message: Yeah, go ahead. Jim's been picking on me all day so I guess I can stand a little more razzin'. Sheesh! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 11:43:06 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Katie Subject: P.S. Message: Right then.... Katie, dearest, please consider that Mr. Vacant is dying for one of your rare cutting insults, and then when you surprise him with that, you can post his email address here and validate his claims of the presence of evil on this site. Katie, listen... you don't want this guy liking you or saying nice things about you. It's bad. It means you're bad. It's like the devil walking around with a sandwich sign, saying 'I like Katie'. People see it and they think you've got leprosy. You know that nice feeling you get when someone likes you and is pleased with you? It's all warm, and you feel like you're sitting by the fireplace with friends. Well, that same feeling is available by invoking the ire of creeps like Mr. Vacant. What happens is a little synapse fires in your brain, deep in the recesses of our neanderthal emotions. Jim identified the sequence of events that takes place in your brain when this happens: Me ex, him premie: ex good, premie bad: me good, him bad. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 13:41:21 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Urgent to Vacol Message: Kieth, Whatever you do please DON'T share your dreams with us. Please, I don't think anyone here's ready for that. Your feelings? Yes. Your 'experience'? If you must. Your thoughts? Well.... But, really, Kieth, fair IS fair, please, no dreams. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 07:37:50 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Brian Subject: Where 'fairness' ends Message: You see,this is where the matter of ethics and morality come into it.Vacol won't send the personal details therefore Vacol has ethical values.Its logic.Where does this leave Jim?? In the dustbin of humanity.God help us if Jim is actually older than 12. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 20:25:11 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: M's New Year '78 address Message: [From M's inspiring New Year phone-feed, 1978] But surrender to Guru Maharaj Ji is, 'Oh, Guru Maharaj Ji, show me. Let me believe in you. Let me trust in you. Let me be with you so I can see. Give me your insight, so that I can see what you can see. Oh Guru Maharaj Ji, help me.' That's waht it basically all boils down to: 'Guru Maharaj Ji, help me.' And I know that because of our ego -- we have been taught, 'Kid, never beg in your life.' And I know there are people who have this concept: 'Never beg in your life. Never be a beggar.' And sometimes you get a letter like that. Or somebody tells me that there's a premie who has an idead that he just doesn't want to beg. Man, you don't ahve to get on your hands and knees and cry out loud and beg like that. But we are all beggars, because we take. We don't pay for it. How can you ever pay for it? We all take. We take what we are given. And we are beggars. We beg for that gift and that gift is given. And we need to beg for the most ultimate, ultiamte, ultimate thing. And the giver of that ultimate thing is Guru Maharaj Ji. To give us even that little strength to try; give us that little energy, give us that little focus to help us surrender to him so we can see, we can see more clearly. And even that energy, even that strength that Guru Maharaj Ji has to give us will only come when we put our efforts first; a real and sincere effort. And premies, all I want to say is, 'Happy New Year.' At least in New York it's four hours -- the new year. East Coast. And premies in California, well you still have three hours to go. And premies in Denver have two hours to go. And premies who are a liitle bit away from Denver have ... OK, here is our new year coming. What are we going to do? (I'm not talking about panic, 'Here, it's New Year's, what are we going to do?') But it's a very simple thing. Are we really and sincerely going to make that effort? Are we really and sincerely going to advance one more step in our lives for a change? Are we in fact really going to tighten our belts and make this propogation happen in this world? Are we in fact really going to let Guru Maharaj Ji come into our lives? And let him control the rein and provide us that sight we all need? Or is it going to be one more miserable, miserable, miserable year of our mind controlling us? He goes on and on, alternating between showing us how to think of ourselves as completely small and ineffectual, 'miserable' people and cajoling us to try harder and harder to give our lives to him. Okay, I'll do a little more. Look, the optino is yours completely. What do you want to do? And this is the way it works. Yell 'Help' in your heart and you will get help. Extend you rarm and your arm will be held. You will be pulled out. If, in fact, tah really comes from the bottom of the heart. Not like, 'Ha, ha, ha, here Guru Maharj Ji, I'm going to give you a try. This is your test.' Something like, somebody was walking along the road -- this is what I used to think about genies. 'Man, if ever I saw a genie or I ever get hold of a genie' -- this is when I was very small -- 'I would first make sure that it's a real genie who's in fact going to do whatever I want it to.' And sincerely form my heart, sincerely from my heart if I try and extend that hadn to Guru Maharaj Ji, 'pleas hold my hand' (not physically hold my hand) 'Oh Guru Maharaj Ji, hold my hand, pull me out. I need you!' You know, a lot of people go, 'Guru Maharaj Ji! Pull my hand.' Guru Maharaj Ji says,'Why? Why should I pull your hand?' [ed: isn't this a lot like that stupid fart joke little kids play on each other?] Or a lot of people go, 'Ha ha ha, Guru Maharaj Ji, this is your final test. If you yank me out this time, if you pull me out this time, in 1980 I bet you I'll givbe you my life.' And Guru Maharaj Ji says, 'Oh yeah, sure.' Guru Maharaj Ji says, 'Look, if you can't do it now, you can never do it. And if you can do it in 1980s, you can do it now. You can do it now.' And it's a very simple situation. That Grace is there. We just have to make that effort a little bit more. We have to make that effort more sincere. We have to make that effort more clear. So, he goes on and on. What a party, huh? This satsang was like all this other extremely debilitating shit he laid on us in the late 70s. The only good premie was a whining premie. Or, sorry, did I misintrepet something? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 07:32:47 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Jim Subject: another selective old quote Message: Bravo Jim.Can we now have a quote from you when you were that age?No I guess not as you probably never had a thought in your head at that stage worth the scrutiny of the entire world's media.Do you think you might be jealous of the man or something? How about a latent superiority complex??Face it Jim you are never going to be one tenth of the man that GMJ was when he was a teenager are you?? I suppose the expletives and insults should start just about.......................now. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 17:00:42 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Good morning Message: Yes...it is6.30am here in Down Under land(Gondwana), and I have just finished reading all the posts responding to yours truly and a few others too. Wow....I sleep for 6 hours and when I return to my beloved computor....there is more real communication to catch up on than I could have expected ....partly because of the time difference. All hail to the forum!!!! But on a more serious note.... Robyn, Vacol has no deep and meaningful significance......I mean the name.....My middle name is Colin ....and the 'Va' part is a part of a professional name I use sometimes.....so I put them together ....and use this name on the internet , despite some unscrupilous people exposing my real name and ignoring one of the golden ethics of the 'net'! Also Robyn....I agree with you ....divinity can be perceived in a colony of ants ....in a childs smile .....in the caring expression of a nurse......and I realise that my words were open to misunderstanding ....and I should have expressed my point more clearly. About M's non recognition of his abuse......well, hold on a moment .....you also say that you have no personal gripes against M ...but are sympathetic with those who do (my words ) ; is that right? Because if that is correct it is so heavily influenced by those who do have gripes .....the point is that I have no personal experience of M actually abusing someone ....do you understand? It is all hearsay to me. Which does not mean dismiss the claims.....but leaves me simply open to all possibilities! JW......Yes your points are well made. And yes I am also willing to admit that M might be a fraud .....as you are willing to admit that might be an authentic Master,....I have no problem with this position....and haven't for many years. As for the point about perhaps M not being entitled to forgiveness.....well I feel if anyone is not entitled to forgiveness then we are not too. And to say that M continues to abuse...and then qualify this by adding ..(ie; taking resposibility for past abuse ) is glaringly erring in simple logic.....what continued 'actual' abuse is M meant to be perpetrating? that has to do with the present, not the past? and which you have first hand experience of.....if you like 'emperical' proof! Anon......I laughed at your image of the divine person....whoever that might be ....sitting on the toilet having a quite nose-pick......yes ...we are multi-dimensional! And finally ..John....a persons blindness to the divinity 'within' everything and everyone makes me want to puke .....not really , but almost sometimes!!! Regards to you all... Vacol Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 17:28:26 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: everyone Subject: Good morning....continued Message: Also as an afterthought .....the word 'abuse' is feel curly one .....what is abuse to one person may not be to another. I feel I need to really here how ex's feel they have been abused in some type of direct fashion by Maharaji. Not via their interpretations of what M said , which can be interpretated in so many ways and on so many different levels ....nor via hearsay .....but how has Maharaji directly abused you? Vacol. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 17:30:30 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: all Subject: Good morning....continued Message: Sorry for my typo errors! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 20:09:19 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Hi Colin Message: Can you name ONE master? You said something about -authentic- master to JOE W. The problem with the 'divinity within' concept is that is is always tied to this idea that you are responsible for your own attianment of some alleged -states of being- and that there are 'advanced' people ahead of us on the alleged-spiritual path-. This eastern hindu buddist misperception of life is a god awful form of tyranny. It is reflected in the caste system, all the false masters and gurus, and lamas, and rishis and ect. ect. You can forget honesty in that world. It is one dishonest person pretending to have inner experiences after another. I for one agree with rick and JW in saying it is like the emporers clothes. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 07:45:40 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: bill Subject: Hi Colin Message: Try JC for size,or are you going to simply shrug him off too?? Is your wisdom greater than even one percent of the bible? Read some Gibran or Krishnamurti or Bahai and stop pretending that there isn't soul and spirit.Try reading Shakespeare without a soul,you can't, because YA GOT ONE.Its just so small and shrivelled from lack of use you've forgotten about it.Pull youself together man and go within.Go for a solitary walk and find yourself.Take it out and throw it around a bit,your soul that is. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:31:01 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: Petrou Subject: sorry petrou, i'm not wrong Message: petrou you dont read people and actually get to know them very quickly. For you to address that post and respond that way is just because of not knowing your reciever. There is a vast difference between haveing life inside and pretending to somehow be better than the next guy and that the next guy should treat you as more than what you really are. And so any fraud guys emerge because of thier delusion and their excuses for thier tyranny over others. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 10:06:56 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: bill Subject: sorry petrou, i'm not wrong Message: Look Bill how do you know?just don't give youself over to a teacher straight away,get to know them.There are some good ones.Use some gut instinct.A good novel can teach a lot.This link is a dead end for people like you.They want you to feel bad:I don't.I was trying to be funny and instructive.I come here to sharpen my intellect on these poor whetstones and I pick my teeth with their answers.I also like to meet people like Vacol:other good knights.Actually I might call it a night!!Good night. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 13:45:20 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Petrou Subject: Petrou, you're breaking me up Message: I come here to sharpen my intellect on these poor whetstones and I pick my teeth with their answers. Petrou, baby, THIS is hilarious. Really, I've never had so much fun in my life. Keep it coming, dude. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 04:55:08 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Jim Subject: Petrou, you're breaking me up Message: Hey Jim,how about this one:I've written to GMJ's legal reps about the 'shooting without blanks'by ,no less,bb.What are you gonna do now:still invite GMJ for a quiet discussion??.Any court or police officer would be looking very seriously at the threats couched here with the usual hysterical venom.Who knows Jim we might meet in court one day and we can all have a read of your raving insults.I wonder if bb's comments are already enough to close this sorry show DOWN??.Looks like a few entries are aleady missing. PS I've aleady noticed the greater respect from the Ex-filers since I've hoed into them.How odd.Still the bibile tells us to rebuke the ignorant. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 20:11:13 (EDT)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Good morning Message: what continued 'actual' abuse is M meant to be perpetrating? He continues to say untrue things to you and me. This makes me not able to trust him any more. Without trust in the Master, 'The Triangle' collapses. Then you begin to wonder what other untrue things he's told you that you believe because you wanted to see the universe that way so badly. Waking up to the fact that M really does not have my best interests at heart has been a shattering experience for me. I am probably questioning and doubting True things right now, simply because M has said them. The central focus of my life has evaporated. It's going to take some major readjustment before I'll even have a direction in life again. And yet he continues to pretend, not only to me, but to others that will be hurt when they find out, that he is 'that person, that great soul, that Master' who has 'come for me.' I'd call this harmful. -Still (short-time ex) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 22:42:27 (EDT)
From: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Still Crazy Subject: You're not alone Message: Hi there Still Crazy. Just thought I'd let you know that I relate to and sympathise greatly with, what you have written here. Please feel free to write about anything that you feel. You are not alone in this, believe me. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 08:09:31 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: David Subject: You're not alone Message: Yeah,there's at least a dozen others. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 11:28:00 (EDT)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: David Subject: You're not alone Message: Heh. Thanks. Yeah, I'll be writing more and more of my experiences here -- I realize it's the place they belong. Actually I've been a lurker since before a.c.m got started, so I realize there's many others who have been where I am now. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 23:51:44 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Still Crazy Subject: Good morning Message: Still: Without trust in the Master, 'The Triangle' collapses. Then you begin to wonder what other untrue things he's told you that you believe because you wanted to see the universe that way so badly. Very well said. For me the process never actually reached that cathartic moment. I got a letter from his secretary disavowing his messianic mission in language I could only describe as smarmy, but at the time I seemed to have more important things to think about. I just put him on a back shelf and other things moved front and center by default. Eventually he was completely replaced, and I dealt with things directly when I encountered this site. By that time there really wasn't much of a sting left. I understand what you must be going through. Starting to think about the consequences of having to jettison all of my beliefs, about Christianity and the whole thing. Perhaps... just maybe... there's a new beginning when I'm no longer fooling myself. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 08:14:50 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: George Jettison. Message: Why on earth did this alleged process require you to 'jettison' all your beliefs about JC??Isn't that like throwing the proverbial baby out with the bath water? Some of the Xers have claimed that many of you are deeply spiritual people.Or is that just Xers-file?? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:07:07 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Petrou Subject: Impolite, fair warning. Message: Good question. I jettisoned MJ, not Knowledge or JC at that time. I still haven't jettisoned them, but if I look at the actual evidence for JC (Knowledge rests on a personal experience, so that's different) there are some things that trouble me. The 'Darkness at Noon' controversy first raised by Edward Gibbon in Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, originally published in 1776. The scene involving Ananias and Sapphira where the husband and wife misrepresent the PROPORTION of their contribution (not even the amount) and subsequently drop dead due to their 'lie' to God. Gumby was supposed to get back to me on that one, but never did. Why, do you think it's completely illegitimate to even question that stuff? I will 'jettison' JC if and when I have to, and not before. I have to tell you, Petrou. These comments were not meant for you. I don't think you have any credible critical capacity left. Please 'bug' someone else will you? I'm quite willing to talk to Gumby about this, and the objective is different. Your 'Master' does not get the benefit of the doubt. I would have invited you and the other premies to such a debate in my naive days when I thought you all had a stake, and thought you capable of critical reasoning. You have re-educated me. If a knowledgeable non-premie wants to take up Maharaji's side (like David Lane) in a debate I'd be more than willing to oblige. There just isn't anything more to be learned by talking with you guys. If we could put aside the Maharaji thing, and agree to disagree, then we might even be friends. I have friends who are still premies. But the topic and purpose of this site is to impartially look at the legitimacy Maharaji. Do you honestly think I wouldn't love to find reasons to believe in him? I just can't do it and be honest with myself at the same time. I understand VPs sadness very well. I would like to investigate what kind of 'testimony' would convince me of the existence of a perfect master or messiah, but I'm beginning to suspect that it's just not in the Plan. Did that possibility ever occur to you? -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:20:10 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Impolite, fair warning. Message: Hey,didn't you know?I'm a practising Christian!!But I still respect GMJ.I got this from him and I love it.I'm determined to respond to things I feel I need to.That part of the Bible story is a curly one.But you have to remember that at that time it was vitally important to give everything to the church or the force of negativity(evil?)would have won.There is a very sound theory that some of the Bible was rewritten and changed by others of a more imperfect nature,so its up to us to seperate 'the chaff from the grain'. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 10:10:43 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Petrou Subject: A 'real' disagreement... Message: Petrou: I'm not sure I agree with the notion that the bible was 're-written' by anyone. We have access to some of the earliest texts for comparison, and they aren't that different. Furthermore, the Gospels and most of the other New Testament texts were actually written 50 to 100 years on. By then the authors had already incorporated cultural necessity into their narrative. So the testimony was corrupted from the beginning. For me the linchpin rests on the choice offered to the apostles and patriarchs by the Roman magistrates at their respective trials. The way people actually act, and the way they choose to live their lives as a whole, or end them, is far more convincing to me than what they happen to say at a particular time. I should add that my ability to take this 'linchpin' argument without a grain of salt has been corrupted to some extent by the Jonestown, Waco, and Heaven's Gate phenomena. It rests upon the observation that people will not choose to die for something they know to be a lie, but what if they leave themselves no ethically acceptable 'out?' Some people appear to be so committed to being right that the consequences don't matter. Still, it would be a largely persuasive argument if someone could convince me that the Apostles and Patriarchs were actually given an opportunity to recant their testimony regarding the resurrection in particular. If they were not, the whole thing collapses. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:42:44 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Petrou Subject: Chaff from the grain Message: Petrou, No, no one would know from the posts you have written here today that you were a practising Christian. You've really been seperating the chaff from the grain today. Apparently some of the things you have thrown out with the chaff: 1) Turning the other cheek 2) Loving thy neighbor as thyself 3) Judging not lest ye be judged How did you put it? If the truth hurts, it should? VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 04:47:15 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: VP Subject: Chaff from the grain Message: Its good to see this because it really qualifies what I have been saying:you guys only respond to a good dose of what you try to dish out AND THEN you become sorry for yourselves.I've got a surpise coming up soon.Stay tuned. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 11:35:43 (EDT)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Good morning Message: Perhaps... just maybe... there's a new beginning when I'm no longer fooling myself. Actually, although this is a very difficult period for me, I'm not too freaked out by it because it is definitely a new beginning. But life has always been that way for me: I'm always growing and learning. I grew during my time following M, and now I've grown so much I can't fit in there any more. It's really quite exciting, even though the sense of loss and betrayal is great. The hardest part is figuring out what's a lie and what's true of so many deep and central things. As I said in another thread, I'm having to question and re-evaluate things that are probably actually True, just because a proven liar said them to me so many times. Thanks for your supportive words. -Still Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 07:57:36 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Still Crazy Subject: get a life. Message: Your message is no more than self pity.It oozes with it.Poor-little-ol-me.Its either that or its puerile insults about GMJ in order to scapegoat him for personal problems. If you don't like GMJ then look at alternatives.Its like ending a relationship-you either start another one or endlessly gripe about the old one.If you don't like spiritual things then find a hobby or a book.Don't indulge for too long in wistful reminising,it could become destructive.Just look at the sad examples on this line who gripe all the time.Do you want to be like them?No.Nobody does.That's the only good they do:they are sad examples for others to veer away from.Frozen in their bitterness for who knows how long.The truth can sometimes hurt. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 11:42:04 (EDT)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Petrou Subject: get a life. Message: Dear Petrou -- Thank you for your kind thoughts, your sympathy, and your understanding of what I'm going through. -Still Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 07:20:22 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Good morning Message: How easy it is to make claims on the Net.Don't be too disappointed in some of the things here Vacol,if you read the negative messages they drop the occasional 'clanger'eg the one who admitted to attending scientology etc.If you look at some of those trips boy does GMJ come up looking even better every second. The knockers have axes to grind that are down to the shaft already.Their desire to be negative is compulsive therefore psychotic by nature.ie they are addicted to scapegoating,refuse to take responsibility,will not practice forgiveness and ethics etc etc etc. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:03:29 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Petrou Subject: Good evening Message: Thanks Vacol.....it's good to keep a good humour in the midst of all this mental/emotional anguish. It's strange for me ....I have worked with people for years in intimate theraputic situations .....and have not encountered as much deep feeling of resentment as I have found on this site. It is actually a really sharp learning curve for me ....to participate in this . Bye Petrou. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:29:51 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Good evening Message: Some of these people are into different scenes far more strange than GMJ.They are obviously obsessive.A few are no doubt plain jealous of GMJ's success. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:15:38 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Vacol Subject: 9pm Sat night just seeing this Message: Dear Vacol, Thanks for the name explaination. I was dissappointed when I thought maybe you told Jim your real name thorough email and he broadcasted it here but hoped I missed a post where you mentioned your name. I am at my 2nd job and have things to do so don't read all the posts. This thread caught my attention but I kept avoiding it because it is so long but now I'm on my own time and am glad I checked it out. You misunderstand my position. I had no grips with M. I made no huge investment in him. When I found this site and realized what he had done to so many who post here and therefore, most probably many who never post here. The grip became mine. I do not sympathize because I believe I have read heart felt hurts and some more factual things, quotes, accounts from ex's who spent much time in close proximity to M and from my oldest daughter's uncles experience when he was close to M. If my neighbor is nice to me and mine but is found to be a child molester I would THEN have a problem with him, not just be sympathatic to those he abused. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:31:39 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Vacol Subject: Vacol, I saw this 9pm Sat Message: Dear Vacol, I could just spit, I replied to you and submitted it...I got that weird blank, grey screen, hit View, refresh... and nothing. I clicked on the back button, found my reply and re-submitted it...same thing!!?! Now I noticed it isn't in the index! OK, to recap. I do not feel sympathy for those M has hurt. When I read their heart felt experiences and other post with M's quotes, or posts from people who were physically close to M, I believe them and now I to have grips with M. It is similar to an example of my getting alone well with my neighbor who is nice to me and mine. Then I find out he is a child molester, now I have a problem with my neighbor. I don't just feel sympathatic to those he has hurt. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 16:13:08 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Sad it ain't so Message: Disclaimer for a serious post: I have a great life and on the whole I am a positive person. I hope this won't be construed as whining. Just for today, just in this moment, I am sad it ain't so. There's no perfect master alive and in his body walking around for me to see and hear his holy words. There is no experience of 'God' inside for me to marvel at and wonder about. There is only a fraud I heard of who made me yearn for a truth that has turned out not to be a truth at all. I'm not sad the living lord is not Maharaji, I'm sad it's not anyone. Do any of you ever feel this? I'm gonna go listen to some children laughing and I hope I'm over this by tomorrow. VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 22:06:10 (EDT)
From: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: VP Subject: Sad it ain't so Message: Sure have felt sad about that sometimes. You only have to read my 'Journey' entry to see that. It can be particularly hard to swallow, there being no living Lord, when for over 20 years I actually believed Maharaji was the living Lord. Now I am philosophical about it. If there was such a thing as God in human form then He would have to be here all the time and not just favour one generation. Also, his presence on this earth would put some people at a disadvantage since there would bound to be some people who just didn't like him, for personal or cultural reasons. Of course, I'm quite willing to be proved wrong about all this. But I really don't think there is meant to be a living Lord here. Now why doesn't some premie stand up and say 'HE'S HERE!' like we used to. Meditation teacher!? God, it's so boring. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 23:37:08 (EDT)
From: Havarti Email: None To: David Subject: The Master Cometh Message: Cheddar, Good thought. Why would God favor one time or one place (culture)for that matter? I'm willing for someone would prove you wrong, too:) I think that is part of the idea behind the Mormon religion. (That Jesus came back to the Americas after the resurrection as well.) It's interesting to look at, but I don't see how Joseph Smith got those magic glasses to work. Anyway, wasn't he a land swindler before he started in the religion buisness? eb? Take Care, David VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 02:16:45 (EDT)
From: Bruce Email: phoenix@b024.aone.net.au To: David Subject: Sad it ain't so Message: Dear David, HE'S HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just hadto say it! David I like some of your stuff, particularly Kabir. For me the important thing is to get to the inner experience. What we 'think' about M. is secondary to this. You've mentioned that you practice the techniques still. It shows. Personally, I think this is the bottom line.This is something which has to be practical , not just some belief. Thinking that M. is god in human form or thinking that he is just a meditation teacher are both the same in the end. Its all just ideas, which are debatable and empty of real understanding and fulfilment. My experience has been, and still is, that M. is that power in human form. I don't experience this all the time though.! I don't go round saying this to everyone because it creates more problems for people getting to the practical experience in the end and it really doesn't help people, unless they are attracted by the idea because of some preexisting condition. M. is still M. A rose by any other name is stiil a rose. Not sure if you are interested, but have a look at Salvadore Dali's 'the Last Supper'. There's a small one at http://www.gettysburg.edu/~s332790/art.html Have a close look at Jesus's right hand. Look like he's about to demonstrate something? Bruce Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 07:31:51 (EDT)
From: Bruce Email: None To: David and John K. Subject: Glad it is so Message: Dear David and John, I wrote the last post in a hurry, and on looking back at the past posts I've noticed that John is the one who has been quoting from Kabir . Must have associated you guys together somehow. Sorry David if you don't like Kabir! John, do you still want me to explain what I meant in 'Brian has risen'? I can answer for brian one !. I'm glad somebody could spot the difference. Bruce Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:12:29 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Bruce Subject: Salvadore Dali Message: Bruce, How much did you know about Salvadore Dali? From what I know, I doubt anything he put into Jesus' hand was meant to be perceived as factual. He was a surrealist, you know. Thanks for the web site, though. VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:51:40 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: VP Subject: Salvadore Dali Message: Dear VP, I had a premie friend from Canada, Katrina who lived on a premie farm near where I am now. She had worked for Salvadore Dali. She was blonde and would be part of live statues at his parties. Wonder what ever happened to her? Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 22:02:21 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Salvadore Dali Message: Robyn, Did your friend say that S.Dali was a premie? VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 00:27:11 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: VP Subject: Sad it ain't so Message: VP: It is more than a little consoling to think that at least we might be starting from somewhere real. Maybe that's what it takes for a new beginning. Knowledge is power. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 07:26:03 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: VP Subject: Sorry,but you're whining again Message: Sounds like another big sorry-for-me sook exactly in the Sensitive Jim mould.Mould being the operative word.When you guys are not knocking or insulting you take a breather and feel sorry for yourselves.Try some other kind of meditation but for pity's sake get it together. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:08:48 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Bruce Subject: Sorry,but you're whining again Message: Welcome back Bruce. By the way , Mirabai and I share a house and the computor. She has been otherwise preoccupied of late and has not been posting. Regards Vacol. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:11:45 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Bruce Subject: oooppps! Message: Bruce ,sorry about not changing the subject heading on the last post .....you're not the whining type!!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 14:43:30 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Petrou Subject: Again Message: Again? I don't do too much whining on here, so I guess I'm allowed to share some real feelings in one post. Sorry you equate sadness for a feeling of loss with whining. BTW I've got it together and today I don't give two rats about it. Having a great day. Ain't it great to be alive!! :) VP P.S. Scott, Thanks for that post above. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 09:05:53 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: A Proposal For Maharaji Message: There are people posting here who want you to take personal responsiblity for you words and actions. I'm sure you feel that you already do. If that's so, you're doing it in the dark. Many premies read this forum, and word of mouth spreads the news of its existence as fast as it spreads the news of your existence. Every time you gather the premies together, those who have yet to hear of this site are being exposed to greater numbers of those who have. That's just the facts. You can do one of two things: Pretend it will go away. Face up to it and rebut what is being said here. I realize that anyone can post here under any name and that creates havoc at times. If you want to take responsibility for your words and speak like an adult with other adults, I can set up a password-protected account on this site that only the person (you) having the password will be able to post under. It would work like this: Have David Coyne pass the user name and password to me via email to brian@ex-premie.org. David, as you probably know, is the premie who mistakenly contacted me with the news that you would prefer that premies not post on the internet. (You can deny this in person when you post if you so choose.) I will phone him (I have his number) for voice confirmation that it was indeed you who passed the information to me through him. Then I will modify the Forum so that the password protection is in place (might take a couple of days). I will then post a notice that it is in place and that David Coyne has verified that you are the person who will posting under that name. While David might also have access to the name and password, he wouldn't dare use it, I'm sure. Oh, and by the way, contact David Coyne yourself personally. He's been carrying your messages out to the premie community and the least you could do is to thank him for it when you have him on the phone. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 17:08:47 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Brian Subject: A Proposal For Maharaji Message: I as a so-called premie (my god , how i HATE labels) support your attempt to invite Maharaji to participate in these forum debates in a way that provides security for him.....and I feel your general remarks are well put and interesting. I also feel that M will find a way to deal with all this . It is like opening Pandora's box....once opened everything flies out . good move !!!!Vacol. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 18:16:06 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Vacol Subject: My letter to Linda Gross Message: Here's what I just faxed to Linda Gross, president of Elan Vital: April 17, 1998 Elan Vital (By fax to 310 - 829 - 6316) c/o Linda Gross Attorney at Law 2730 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 220 Santa Monica, CA. 90403 Att: Linda Gross, President Dear Linda: Re: Maharaji As I mentioned when we spoke earlier this year, a number of former premies feel quite frustrated in their efforts to communicate with Maharaji. Many of us have written him over the years but no one’s heard back. I myself wrote him a letter on April 11th, 1997. I didn’t get an answer either. I have also asked David Smith, David Coyne and yourself to assist but no one seems willing and/or able to intercede. We can’t call him, he won’t give interviews and he won’t answer his mail. For want of a better word, it does seem as if Maharaji is ‘stonewalling’ a lot of people who served him faithfully for years. Honestly, do you think that’s fair? Please find enclosed a copy of a recent ‘post’ on the Ex-Premie web site inviting Maharaji, once again, to engage in a dialogue with his former followers. Like it or not, the net is here to stay and, as Brian explains, more and more premies are reading and posting on the ‘ex’ site all the time. Surely, Maharaji must understand that he can’t hide from his critics forever. Wouldn’t it be better to face them squarely? Avoidance, in a situation like this, speaks volumes. Would you please, then, forward this letter to Maharaji at your early convenience and advise me accordingly? I don’t know if Maharaji’s ever looked at the ‘ex’ site but, in case he hasn’t, this will advise him of Brian’s invitation. Thanks very much for your assistance in this regard. Sincerely James I. Heller Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 18:38:24 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: My letter to Linda Gross Message: Great letter, Jim and great proposal Brian. Both sound very reasonable, but we are not dealing with a reasonable person here, so don't hold your breath. One of the many things I'm sure old Big M intends to do on the day hell freezes over is to engage in an un-controlled discussion with ex-premies, or any other critics, in an environment the whole world can see and where he can be held to what he says, in writing. He is too much of a control freak, too paranoid, and knows that the thin veneer of his aura of special godliness is too easily pierced. He simply has too much to lose. Moreoever, can you imagine when the flocks of programmed premies find out he's posting on the internet? I mean it would be great to see the psychosis writ large, but he would have to be really nuts to do it. But, then, maybe he will surprise me and do the honest and honorable thing, nah! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 18:45:06 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: JW Subject: Another technical point. Message: Brian: JW raises an interesting issue. Can this site handle so many people trying to post? You may have to issue passwords to everyone, just to keep things manageable. Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:05:08 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Jim Subject: Civilised Jim Message: My my, how civilised Jim can be when he has to put something in writing.Too bad we all know him as an insulting,foul-mouthed non entity. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 18:17:45 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Brian and Jim Subject: Questions for Brian and Jim. Message: Brian: I don't see what the password protection gets him? Maybe I'm just dense. No one else could post under that name? Couldn't you identify fraudulent posts by the ISP anyway? Well, I guess someone might be motivated to get the same ISP just so he could post as the ex-lord, assuming that we or anyone else knew who he was. One more question of Jim. Is himself considered a premie? I mean, if he posted here would you be compelled by your vow to forsake a debate? -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 18:20:20 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Questions for Brian and Jim. Message: Scott, I've just decided YOU'RE a premie so I don't have to answer you! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 18:26:43 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: Questions for Brian and Jim. Message: Jim: Are there any brakes left on that train? -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 18:31:47 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Questions for Brian and Jim. Message: I know you are ..... No, Scott, to answer your question, if Maharaji ever joins in, I'll break my vow and and chat with him. Yes, he's a premie, but I'll do it anyway. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 18:40:28 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: Questions for Brian and Jim. Message: Jim: But suppose you don't know who himself is? If you don't respond to premies might you not miss an opportunity? Not saying he's Mili mind you. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:11:04 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Questions for Brian and Jim. Message: Don't you have anything better to do than sit around and bug me, for God's sake! Look, Scott, in case you haven't figured it out: Ex-premie - good, premie - bad. Me - ex-premie. I'm good, you can't criticize me. You can't even ask me hard questions. Hell, there are no hard questions (except, how in the world I'm going to lose this stupid spare tire I put on last year!) Mili? Who's Mili? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:20:01 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: A solution for Jim. Message: Jim: About the spare tire. I've been similarly surprised by that unmitigated injustice. My feeling is that it has to do with El Nino. For some reason the 'energy' just whips up a lot of fat in the air. Then, of course, we inhale it unsuspectingly. The more you exercise the more you breath, and the fatter you get. Solution: hold your breath until Maharaji answers Brian's proposal. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:22:17 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: A solution for Jim. Message: I went into a spontaneous titter on that one, Scott. Couldn't keep my mouth closed! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:24:16 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: All Subject: A few more points Message: Protection is a must given that a certain ex-premie (a bad guy) already has abused this forum by trying to pretend he was M . And come on all you fellow premies (or whoever we are)....what do you think about everything coming out in the open.....isn't Maharaji and at least the stronger of his premies ready to meet the challenge of all this going public.....anyway I feel that a new era of public debate cannot be stopped....and the time is very close to where we all need to stand up and be counted. The walls have to crumble ....even if they have been necessary up to now...as I tend to believe ...at least to some extent. I am personally not afraid of everything going public....for me , there is nothing to hide and I am rock-solid in my own experience and essential understanding . All these different perspectives of mine are to do with issues around the edges . So let the REAL DEBATE begin!!!! Vacol Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:40:24 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Vacol Subject: V,been sayin' this for years Message: Tell this to the Guru. Vacol, don't you think people on here have been saying these same things for years? You see, you have got the right instincts IF YOUR GURU WAS ON THE UP AND UP. (Sorry to shout.) He has a lot to hide and that's why he won't go public. I agree LET THE DEBATE BEGIN! BTW, I'm not holding my breath:) VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 03:20:42 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: VP Subject: V,been sayin' this for years Message: >He has a lot to hide and that's why he won't go public. Maybe he's not into mud-wrestling. You are a bit arrogant these days egged on by the glamour of an electronic mirage. You think this forum is a righteous manifestion of goodness? Give me a break! It does have the righteousnous of a misguided lnych mob at times. There has been more enjoyment and learning at M events than this forum will ever be able to hope for. I do think this forum has some value and can be interesting. CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 14:46:02 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: CD Subject: V,been sayin' this for years Message: Hey, CD! I don't think I was very arrogant in 'Sad it ain't so'-I was even 'whiny'! Most of the time I am in good humor on here. VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:12:13 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Scott T. Subject: Questions for Brian and Jim. Message: Re: can the forum handle the traffic? It locks to further posts when a limit is reached and is Read-Only until an archive is run. Re: Why password protect the account? I don't know MJ's IP address. Anyone can begin posting under a false name and continue. I can only tell if they originate at the same location. Not who is sending, or any information about them. Hence the need to protect an account so that WE can know that it is only the person who has access to that password doing the posting. People have posted under the name 'M' before. BB sees MJ behind every keyboard. How are you to know unless there is a set protocol established before the first post appears? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:28:40 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Brian Subject: Weight reduction and traffic.. Message: Brian: It's sort of pointless to bring up these issues, but don't know if I like the 'first come first serve' approach to traffic regulation. I think I've earned the right to pose a few questions without waiting in line behind a multitude of Gurunoids. Still, the whole issue is pretty moot, except for it's potential as a weight loss strategy. BTW, did you ever see Alfred Hitchcock's weight reduction machine for fatheads? A guillotine. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:29:04 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Scott Subject: A fool. Message: Scott...I just have to say something to you ....just to get it out of my system.....SCOTT....you are an utter FOOl! Ah...that feels better! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 19:34:28 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: A fool. Message: Vocal: RE: Ah...that feels better! Sort of like taking a crap, I imagine. I know you are, but what am I? -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 20:13:46 (EDT)
From: Memphis Belle Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Put flyers on Cars at events! Message: Someone should put flyers about this site on all the car windows while all the premies are inside listening to M. This will get everyone's attention for sure! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 20:26:36 (EDT)
From: Vacol the vocal Email: None To: Scott and Jim Subject: The fools Message: I would like to prpose that Scott and Guru Jimji move in with each other .....they are like two peas in a pod .....the odd couple, but so charming together...and really complimentary!!!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 20:43:46 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol the vocal Subject: The fools Message: Vacol: I admire your exuberant intentionality (i.e. a trait, not a motive). I could quip here, but I don't think you see the ground coming up. This isn't all fun and games. Mirrors are not transparent. That's their big weakness. I need to be able to see through you, and you through me, not try to figure out how we're some kind of obscure reflection of each other. That's a game. I won't call you names. Take care. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 20:52:22 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: The fools Message: Scott T, Wouldn't it be kind of crowded in your flat with Jim there, too? Hey, if it's any consolation soon Participant will have a little box for Vacol and he/she will have more posts than we do (snicker) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 21:02:13 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: VP Subject: Just s'more foolishness Message: VP: I still think the appropriate measure of participation is the number of times your posts are referenced by someone else. Much lower number. A lot more meaningful. Question: Who is the most cited author in North America? Hint: The title of one of his earliest books is the english translation of the phrase 'Homo Politicus.' -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 21:24:34 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: No Trivia, please!! Message: Scott, I can never win at Trivial Pursuit-I am the Worst! (Though I did get 10 points from John K. on Lennon lyrics once. Amazing.) Balderdash-now there's a game I win everytime. (Did you notice the clever way I avoided your queston entirely? I have learned a lot from this forum :) VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 21:55:49 (EDT)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Inviting M to participate Message: Sorry if I am sending too many posts ....but for those who are bothered by this I can promise that this will be my last post for at least some hours. So here's your chance to abuse the hell out of me ....like you do to M and most premies (only intended for those who this applies to)without me getting a shot back . On a much more serious note ....could it be that Maharaji would not decide to participate in an open debate here because many of you ex's are not to be trusted.....you see, my own experience is that quite a number of the ex's here are really deceitful and without many common standards of human decency. There is a type of ex-premie desperation that goes way beyond the justifications given ...which are to blame M for everything. As if M has become the dustbin(garbage can) for every unresolved hurt ....every chip on the shoulder that one carries ...and I really believe that if M had never entered into some of your lives you would be projecting your filth onto someone or something else. I realise that you have heard all this before but that does not make it any less possibly true. Again...I reiterate ,for some ex's seem to never hear this ......read my lips ....I think my own thoughts ....I have my own experiences .....I respect M as a positive mirror of what I already know to be true.....and I feel really sad for those of you who are so locked into a small prison-cell of limited ideas. MAHARAJI IS NO MORE GOD THAN YOU OR I. Sorry for shouting ......we are all Essentially divine . Maharaji knows this .....but you either doubt it or misunderstand what that means .....and I may choose to stop contributing actively on this forum unless there can be some really open debate ,in which a good starting point could be a mutual admission that we have not worked it all out yet...that there is so much we simply do not understand . Enough, enough...Regards Vacol. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 22:35:40 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Inviting M to participate Message: Vacol: ....could it be that Maharaji would not decide to participate in an open debate here because many of you ex's are not to be trusted.....you see, my own experience is that quite a number of the ex's here are really deceitful and without many common standards of human decency. I recant. You are transparent. .....and I may choose to stop contributing actively on this forum unless there can be some really open debate ,in which a good starting point could be a mutual admission that we have not worked it all out yet...that there is so much we simply do not understand . OK. We haven't worked it all out yet. There's so much I (we) simply do not understand. However, I understand perfectly that Maharji's saving grace is that he's better than Jim Jones or Koresh. He's even better the Sai Baba. But, he's not good! How's that for a starting point? Now, you tell me about one single unambiguously selfless act he's ever done that would qualify him to be a reflection of my (our) divine self. Go ahead. LET THE DEBATE BEGIN! Yeah, sure. Incidentally, I take back what I said earlier about your 'exuberant intentionality.' You just managed to weasel out of the only endearing and convincing commitment you've made so far. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 22:45:17 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Inviting M to participate Message: Hey Scott --- LET THE DEBATE BEGIN!! Ha, ha ha, ha,...Sorry, that's so funny. LET THE DEBATE BEGIN!! ha, ha, ha, ha... LET THE DEBATE BEGIN!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 23:01:44 (EDT)
From: Observer Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Inviting M to participate Message: I have read all your posts and you are all over the map, with no consistent viewpoint whatsoever. Has anyone ever told you that you are manic depressive? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 23:59:02 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Observer Subject: Has anyone ever... what Message: Obs: Well, there are ups and downs, but the ups are all on one side of the room and the downs on the other. What's manic depressive about that? Besides, how can you judge mood swings on that little tiny screen? -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 23:13:36 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Inviting M to participate Message: Hey, Vacol. I'm not going to blast you, this response is very sincere. I don't have any objections to frequent posting as I do it myself. I was just adding your name in with the rest of us 'chatterboxes'. ('Participant' counted up our posts once) Besides, I like Scott and you were ragging on him, so I wanted to give you a bit of a teasing. Are we ever going to work it all out? The big picture of life- no, probably not. But the Maharaji equation is so simple once you get some clarity that it doesn't take a whole lot of debate or discussion. He is who he says he is, or he isn't. THAT is so liberating. The questions all kind of evaporate into thin air and you can breathe again. If it makes you feel any better, I blame myself for believing something was true that wasn't. M shares in this and so do the premies who indoctrinated me so young. So what? I'm getting over this. I still feel sad about it from time to time, but not as much any more. Will Maharaji answer? Of course he won't, but it's not for the reasons you cite, no matter how convenient they are. You say exs are not to be trusted. Is this based on one experience of having your identity posted by Jim or is there something else I missed? That was an unfortunate thing, but it doesn't qualify as proof of group dishonesty and deceit. My experience that M is not to be trusted is based on his own actions and his own words. No, Maharaji won't post for the very reasons that have already been discussed by exs above. Why would he discuss himself when he considers this a 'disease'? Why would he discuss himself at length in a public forum when he refuses interviews and won't even return people's letters? There is no way he will, IMHO. What 'filth' is being projected by people here? Just being honest about our feelings and our thoughts, just as you are. I know it must be hard to hear some of the comments. Just because you don't like what some of us have to say doesn't make it 'deceitful' or 'untrustworthy'. Regards, VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 00:24:24 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: VP Subject: Inviting M to participate Message: VP: Very well said. You've shown considerably more restraint than I. Vacol may have had other reasons to excuse Maharaji from Brian's proposal, than simply weaseling out of a commitment, but it certainly looks suspicious. He keeps talking about holding Maharaji to account, and then completely fails to make him accountable for anything. It FEELS like cult programming, nothing more. I'm not sure I need this kind of 'openness.' How can you make a spiritual commitment, if you can't even commit yourself to a point of view long enough to test it's veracity? Rather than be stymied by it I'm about ready to just call it what I think it is. A ruse. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 23:25:52 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Just s'more foolishness Message: Scott, Okay, I give. Who is the most quoted North American author? Thomas Jefferson? Mark Twain? Ben Franklin? What's the book? (Told you I wasn't any good at this.) VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 00:51:32 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: VP Subject: Just s'more foolishness Message: VP: OK. Bear in mind I only know this because he happens to be the chair of my committee. The name of the book is 'Political Man.' (Don't get that confused with 'The Feminine Mystique.' Do a title or word search at the Library of Congress As to why you've probably never heard of him, most authors that write for the popular media don't cite very much. Citations pile up in the academic press, so the citation winner will be someone who is prolific and who writes 'crossover' books that slant toward the academic world: Political Man, The First New Nation, Union Democracy, The Politics of Unreason, Continental Divide, American Exceptionalism, etc. He's a really sweet guy too. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 14:55:51 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Just s'more foolishness Message: Scott, Hey, I found two (almost as fun as an easter egg hunt!) Seymour Martin Lipset and Robert Edwards Lane. VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 16:28:25 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: VP Subject: Just s'more foolishness Message: VP: I did not know about the Lane book. Will have to ask Marty what he thinks of it. To be honest, I think it's a copy cat, and he got away with using the title because the complete title of Marty's book is Political Man: The Social Basis of Politics. Marty's book, by the way, is still in print--in continuous publication for well over 30 years. His own opinion is that his best book is Union Democracy co-authored with Martin Trow and James Coleman. That's the Coleman in the Coleman Report on Civil Rights that led to the Civil Rights Act. Union Democracy is a masterpiece that deals with the fact that many social democratic organizations like unions are not, themselves, governed democratically. The International Typographical Union was an exception to Michel's 'Iron Law of Oligarchy.' Are you interested in the social sciences, or politics? This is a nice break from the shit-hitting-the-fan mentality of the forum recently. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 18:48:12 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Politics Message: Scott, Just got back home. I am interested in politics...except the hollywood atmosphere surrounding the White House lately. Policy is more interesting to me than sensationalism. I don't know much about social sciences, but I am willing to learn about most anything. I would very much like to read your friend's book. You recommend it highly? VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 19:27:50 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: VP Subject: Politics Message: VP: Union Democracy is not typical of Marty's books, although it was his first project after his dissertation on Agrarian Socialism. His father was a member of the ITU and he describes going to the meetings as his introduction to, and ultimate appreciation for, politics. Of course, the tragedy of Union Democracy is that the ITU is now defunct, largely because of the very medium we're using to communicate here. The First New Nation is an extremely good overview of his basic philosophy about the US, and the concept of 'American Exceptionalism.' Continental Divide might also be of interest, since it's more recent, and deals directly with the difference between Canada and the US. US = country of the revolution, Canada = country of the counterrevolution. There is also some application of Continental Divide to Australia, although the parallels are not as easy to draw. By the way, have you ever read Robert Hughes' The Fatal Shore? It's the one book I've read in the last five years that I couldn't put down. Literally stayed up three days reading it. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:24:09 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: The Fatal Shore Message: Scott, No, I haven't read that. It's that good, huh? I will have to read it and some of the other ones you mentioned-I'll get them from Amazon when I get some cash. The IRS just did some blood letting. I stayed up at night reading 'Three Continents' and 'Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil'. I love it when a book is that compelling. 'Primary Colors' is sitting here on the bedside, ready to be started, along with a few books from Katie. Just finished up 'The Guru Papers', too. VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:01:56 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Brian Subject: LOUSY PROPOSAL Message: Imagine somebody of GMJ's importance talking here to the insulting X-filers.Somebody out there has a very,VERY blown out of all proportion concept of the 'importance' of this line. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:17:34 (EDT)
From: Mr Ex Email: None To: Petrou Subject: What Importance Message: What is Mr Rawat's importance? His wealth? His waist? Important men usually accept controversy, specially if they are intelligent! If they don't, then you have to wonder about the reasons. Bill Gates, Clinton do it. What's so special about Prempal Rawat? Tell me please! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:38:54 (EDT)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Mr Ex Subject: What Importance Message: Wow,this is amazing,all you guys have been reduced to the use of petty insult:often as an intro,occasionally as an afterthought,often as the guts of the message.Where is it gonna get you??? Oh well.GMJ is a great teacher and leader.Compare his achievments at age 10 to yours now.Its not a pretty picture is it? Make a list of all the important things you have done and then list GMJ's.Will you even dare mention 'material possessions'?.People like Clinton are often measured by material possessions,its looking grim for Clinton. How many people have travelled half way across the world to hear YOU speak??Yeah,none,count em. Do I have to go on Mr Ex??It could get sad and just a little ugly. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 15:21:10 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Petrou Subject: What Importance Message: Petrough, The guru isn't a great teacher or leader; he is deceitful, misleading, and pompous. And his 'product' is shot through with flaws. His speeches are repetetive sacks of garbage, regurgitated to vulnerable victims reaching out for a scrap of relief. Your argument in maharaji's defense, that so many people travel so far to see him, and that his critics don't have such a following, is so incredibly lame, I can hardly believe you're serious. But you are, aren't you? Okay, well, let's treat you like a five-year old then. Petrough, mommy says, 'It doesn't matter how much people like you, or how far they come to see you; it matters what you do... what you produce... the quality of your thoughts and actions... what it is that you give. Because, as you grow older, Petrough, you'll see that many people followed Hitler, commmitted crimes, bought defective products and achieved much notoriety, but not all of them were good. Also, little Petrough, it will serve you well to do your studies, and think deeply and critically, because life and living is complicated. You're going to need your brain to discern the many different qualities and aspects that come your way.' Okay, Petrough, we can start here, and as you demonstrate the idiocy you've cultivated for many years, we can address new directions for you to go in, so you don't keep making a fool of yourself. I'm willing to help. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |