Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 3

From: Apr 15, 1998

To: Apr 21, 1998

Page: 2 Of: 5



Jim -:- Where's OP, Chris -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 15:52:08 (EDT)
__Brian -:- fmaling people in the Forum -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 17:41:01 (EDT)
____Jim -:- fmaling people in the Forum -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 17:56:18 (EDT)

Scott T. -:- A wee survey -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 14:49:03 (EDT)
__Rick -:- A wee survey -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 15:31:19 (EDT)
____Scott T. -:- The survey concept. -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 15:47:34 (EDT)
__Jim -:- A wee survey -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 18:53:30 (EDT)
____Selena -:- A wee survey -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 23:14:53 (EDT)
______Scott T. -:- A wee survey -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 13:19:59 (EDT)
__Jethro -:- A wee survey -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 11:25:40 (EDT)
__Sam C. -:- A wee survey -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 12:05:23 (EDT)

Jim -:- Mosquito repellant -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 14:29:43 (EDT)
__Rick -:- Mosquito repellant -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 14:48:47 (EDT)
__Scott T. -:- With all doe respect. -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 15:03:22 (EDT)
__Katie -:- Password protection -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 15:22:58 (EDT)
____Rick -:- Password protection -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 15:38:21 (EDT)
______Katie -:- Password protection -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 16:16:48 (EDT)
____Scott T. -:- Password protection -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 15:38:30 (EDT)
____VP -:- Password protection -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 15:42:29 (EDT)
______Scott T. -:- Password protection -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 15:58:38 (EDT)
________Katie -:- Password protection -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 16:25:20 (EDT)
__________Scott T. -:- Password protection -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 16:45:13 (EDT)
____________Katie -:- Password protection -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 17:02:04 (EDT)
______________Scott T. -:- Password protection -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 17:45:08 (EDT)
______Katie -:- Password protection -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 16:06:39 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Password protection -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 16:39:50 (EDT)
__________Scott T. -:- Lucifer, the underachiever. -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 17:58:18 (EDT)
________VP -:- Katie, Scott, Jim, Vacol -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 19:40:06 (EDT)
__________Robyn -:- Syntax -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 19:53:53 (EDT)
____________Scott T. -:- No Robyn, no. -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 23:45:24 (EDT)
______________Robyn -:- No neighbor -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 09:42:05 (EDT)
__________Katie -:- to VP -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:14:29 (EDT)
____________VP -:- to VP -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:41:23 (EDT)
______________Katie -:- to VP-premie site -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:13:45 (EDT)
________________Jim -:- Katie's sick -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:19:35 (EDT)
__________________Katie -:- Katie's sick off topic -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:57:56 (EDT)
____________________Melted cheddar -:- Katie's sick off topic -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 23:23:14 (EDT)
______________________Katie -:- Katie's sick off topic -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 00:16:08 (EDT)
________________________Scott T. -:- Minestrone -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 00:48:45 (EDT)
__________________________Parmesian -:- Minestrone -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 09:34:43 (EDT)
____________________________Tomatoes -:- Minestrone -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 09:56:52 (EDT)
______________________________Scott T. -:- Minestrone -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 10:45:05 (EDT)
________________________________Messy -:- Bondage -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 14:48:47 (EDT)
__________________________________Scott T. -:- Bondage -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 15:43:14 (EDT)
____________________________________Katie -:- Bondage -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 15:49:19 (EDT)
______________________________________French -:- maid -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 21:36:17 (EDT)
________________________________________Scott T. -:- maid -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 23:07:01 (EDT)
__________________________________________VP -:- maid -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 23:17:33 (EDT)
____________________________________________Katie -:- my final offer -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 00:13:26 (EDT)
______________________________________________David -:- my final offer -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 06:28:49 (EDT)
________________________________________________Katie -:- my final offer -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 09:55:43 (EDT)
____________Still Crazy -:- to VP -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:55:01 (EDT)
______________Katie -:- to VP -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:07:22 (EDT)
______________Scott T. -:- to VP -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 00:54:49 (EDT)
________Still Crazy -:- Password protection -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:42:56 (EDT)
__________Katie -:- Password protection -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:01:33 (EDT)
____________Still Crazy -:- To Katie -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:23:49 (EDT)
____vacol -:- Password protection -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 17:29:55 (EDT)
______Vacol -:- Password protection -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 17:44:21 (EDT)
________Jim -:- WATCH IT, KIETH!! -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 18:18:36 (EDT)
__________Vacol -:- WATCH IT, KIETH!! -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 19:15:53 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- WATCH IT, KIETH!! -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 19:22:38 (EDT)
______________Vacol -:- WATCH IT, KIETH!! -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 01:36:18 (EDT)
________________Jamie boy -:- WATCH IT, KIETH!! -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 01:47:47 (EDT)
__________________vACOL -:- WATCH IT, KIETH!! -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 01:49:39 (EDT)
____________________Vacol -:- WATCH IT, KIETH!! -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 02:04:27 (EDT)
______________________Anon -:- WATCH IT, KIETH!! -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 05:04:06 (EDT)
__________CD -:- Jim gets a kick out of threats -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 19:34:12 (EDT)
____________Scott T. -:- Jim gets a kick out of threats -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 09:08:26 (EDT)
______Scott T. -:- Password protection -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 18:09:57 (EDT)
______Katie -:- Password protection -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 18:44:10 (EDT)
________Vacol -:- Password protection -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 19:43:26 (EDT)
__________Katie -:- Password protection -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 19:59:36 (EDT)
____________Anon -:- The party's getting chaotic! -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:58:43 (EDT)
______________VP -:- The party's getting chaotic! -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 22:05:43 (EDT)
______________Vacol -:- The party's getting chaotic! -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 22:14:19 (EDT)
________________Anon -:- The party's getting chaotic! -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 05:24:13 (EDT)
__________________Scott T. -:- The party's getting chaotic! -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 09:29:56 (EDT)
____________________Vacol -:- The party's getting chaotic! -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 15:17:51 (EDT)

Still Crazy -:- The First Crack -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 11:12:50 (EDT)
__Jim -:- The First Crack -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 14:03:59 (EDT)
____Still Crazy -:- A bit shamefaced -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:04:04 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Nothing to be sorry for -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:24:51 (EDT)
________Katie -:- Tapes -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:33:49 (EDT)
__________Scott T. -:- Tapes -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 09:52:38 (EDT)
__the sound ot the -:- prison door opening -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 14:56:58 (EDT)
__CD -:- The First Crack -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 15:36:05 (EDT)
____Katie -:- The First Crack -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 16:48:01 (EDT)
______CD -:- The First Crack -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 19:19:21 (EDT)
________Petrou -:- The First Crack -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 07:40:37 (EDT)
____Scott T. -:- The First Crack -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 18:26:41 (EDT)
______eb -:- The First Crack -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 22:11:46 (EDT)
____Jim -:- Chris, the hypocrite -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 18:33:08 (EDT)
______Scott T. -:- An entertaining feat. -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 19:01:51 (EDT)
________Jim -:- An entertaining feat. -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 19:11:10 (EDT)
__________Vacol -:- An entertaining feat. -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 02:21:07 (EDT)
____________Scott T. -:- At the feat of the Master. -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 10:13:25 (EDT)
____Still Crazy -:- The First Crack -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:18:39 (EDT)
______CD -:- The First Crack -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 01:25:59 (EDT)
________Vacol -:- The First Crack -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 07:19:44 (EDT)
__________CD -:- a couple opinions -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 17:35:44 (EDT)
________Scott T. -:- Nicely written. -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 11:15:35 (EDT)
________VP -:- Absence of malice -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 15:11:07 (EDT)
__________VP -:- distracted for a moment -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 15:17:56 (EDT)
__Petrou -:- Still Crazy is cracked -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 07:33:26 (EDT)

Brian -:- New Archive Online -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 10:00:01 (EDT)

Spock -:- Empirical Logic -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 08:05:16 (EDT)
__bill -:- for petrou -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 02:37:04 (EDT)
____Petrou -:- for petrou -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 07:05:09 (EDT)
______Nice to see -:- a post with no flaming -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 16:32:44 (EDT)

Petrou -:- GMJ's beautiful smile -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 07:10:36 (EDT)
__bb -:- a tyrants 'inner lips' -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:18:59 (EDT)
____Petrou -:- The Taxi-Driver -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:26:22 (EDT)
______bill -:- The Slave Driver -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:44:05 (EDT)
________Petrou -:- The Slave Driver -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:51:27 (EDT)
__________Brian -:- Ill - logic -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 10:07:29 (EDT)
__________oh thank you petrou, -:- that jim had me fooled! -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 11:47:50 (EDT)
____________Petrou -:- that jim had me fooled! -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 05:09:53 (EDT)
__________Scott T. -:- His 'own kind' -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 14:06:37 (EDT)
____________bill -:- His 'own mind' -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 14:38:07 (EDT)
______________Petrou -:- His 'own mind' -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 07:10:43 (EDT)
________________VP -:- His 'own mind' -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 15:41:41 (EDT)
________________Scott T. -:- His 'own mind' -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 17:16:19 (EDT)
____________bill -:- His 'owned victims' -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 03:23:42 (EDT)
____________Petou -:- His 'own kind' -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 05:15:06 (EDT)
______________Scott T. -:- Petou Petrous out. -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 18:06:46 (EDT)
__________Nigel -:- The Slave Driver -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 22:22:51 (EDT)
____________Petrou -:- The Slave Driver -:- Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 07:19:27 (EDT)
____Scott T. -:- a tyrants 'inner lips' -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:42:40 (EDT)
______Petrou -:- of mice and bullets -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:57:26 (EDT)
________Scott T. -:- Not 'shooting blanks' -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 10:29:17 (EDT)
__________bb -:- Not 'shooting blanks' -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 11:51:45 (EDT)

gumby -:- I don't know what got into me -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 03:38:10 (EDT)
__Vacol -:- I don't know what got into me -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 04:19:12 (EDT)
____Petrou -:- I don't know what got into me -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 06:51:02 (EDT)
__Scott T. -:- I don't know what got into me -:- Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:46:03 (EDT)


Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 15:52:08 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Where's OP, Chris
Message:
Well, Chris, now that a new crop of Maharaji apologists have hit the boards, you're beginning to look like an old hand.

Tell me, Chris, what do you think of your new comrades? Pretty motely crew, huh? Did you see that post where Kieth actually fell for my OBVIOUS sarcasm as being straight-faced? And Petrou or Bruce, the little jokers. Honestly, Chris, don't you miss OP?

I do. Now OP was nothing if she wasn't slick. Sure she never said anything important but she sure could nibble on the edges, couldn't she? And, though she might not have actually dealt with anything she was excellent about promising to. Promises, in the guru game, are important, aren't they? Yeah, I miss her. In fact, I'd love to see her chat with some of the other 'sisters' who post here now. I'd love to see good-natured Robyn ask her just some pretty simple questions about Maharaji and watch how that conversation went. I'd love to see Selana slam her. Where is that girl, anyway?

Chris, not meaning to be nosy or anything, but in your post below, you said:

You think this forum is a righteous manifestion of goodness?
Give me a break!


Have you ever noticed how religious premies get? Chris, no one here, that I'm aware of anyway, ever talks about righteously 'manifesting' goodness. (If I live the rest of my life without ever again hearing that word, 'manifest', it'll be a blessing [?]).

So, really, Chris, why the straw man? Let's assume you're right when you add:

It does have the righteousnous of a misguided lnych mob at times.

What does that mean? First, do lynch mobs only attack innocent people? I think not. No they often go after really BAD people, it's just that they 'jump the gun', right, they bypass 'due process' and don't give their victims fair trials. Right? That's the real problem, isn't it?

So what do you suggest, Chris? Let's say we want to give Maharaji every reasonable benefit of the doubt one could imagine and let him explain himself as fully as possible. Would that be fair? If we did that, do you think he should respond? Come on, Chris, anyone can criticize, but how would you do it? How about if one or two of us met with Maharaji for an interview somewhere. I suggested the Cheesecake Factory but maybe that's too loud. Maybe we could just meet at someone's house. Yours, for example.

Maharaji could bring whomever he likes but he'd have to do the talking. Well, I think that's a non-issue, who else is going to talk for him? Bill Patterson? Mike Detmers? Hansi? (Sorry, just kidding.)

All I'd ask is that we tape it. The interview, after all, isn't for a few it's for anyone interested, in particular all the people who invested heavily in Maharaji and now want to ask a few questions at a much belated stockholders meeting.

Now, is that fair? Come on, Chris, what's your opinion?

You know, alternatively, Maharaji could take Brian up on his offer and begin posting here. Then we'd see just how ugly we ex's are or aren't. If the ex's just fmaled the guy and didn't let him get a word in edgewise, well then I think you might ahve a point, we'd be unfair and, as you so artfully say, not exactly righteously manifesting goodness.

I doubt that would happen, though. (Sure, we might have to tie Katie up for a week or so, block her ISP or something.) I think that most, if not all, of us would want to have a very thorough conversation with Maharaji. We certainly seem to say that often enough and I doubt we're ALL lying on that point.

So what do you think about that?

Personally, Chris, if I may, I think you're on the wrong track with:

There has been more enjoyment and learning at M events than this forum will ever be able to hope for.

I can think of a lot of things that are more enjoyable than posting here. No, honestly, I can. Well, sex and music anyway. That's two. And as for learning, I'd have to say this forum does offer a somewhat limited course selection. True, there's anthropology AND archaelogy, not to mention Comparative Religion. And I am learning a lot about what a whining shithead I am, but there ARE other subjects. No, I'd say the forum isn't tops for that either.

But what do you learn at one of M's programs? That learning isn't important, so long as you have an 'experience'? Tell me, Chris, what do YOU know of Comparative Religion.

No, I think you miss the point. This forum has a PURPOSE which isn't just to please and educate. Think about it.

Then, and here's your special genius, Chris. These new upstarts are pretty good, I have to admit, but none of them could ever quite capture the essence of a thought as deeply as you my friend. Tell me, were you trying to teach by example when you wrote:

I do think this forum has some value and can be interesting.

No one, Chris, has done so much with so little. You can take that word, 'interesting' and cater a whole wedding with it. 'Where's this go?'

'Oh that, that's pretty interesting. Put it over there with the other interesting things.'

'Where? You've got a ton of stuff on that table. Where exactly do you wnat me to put it?'

'Oh anywhere, it's all interesting. I'll look at it later but you have to admit, it sure is interesting.'

Really, Chris, what value and interest do you find here?

[Note to all new ex's posting here. Don't wait for answer. No answer will be forthcoming. That's part of Chris' charm.]
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 17:41:01 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jim
Subject: fmaling people in the Forum
Message:
If the ex's just fmaled the guy...

Jim,
I've gtoten bettre at readnig your psots, but thsi tmie you'ev gnoe too fra! I gvie up!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 17:56:18 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: fmaling people in the Forum
Message:
flamed
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 14:49:03 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: talkings@rocketmail.com
To: Seekers of Truth truth
Subject: A wee survey
Message:
This is just a little survey regarding a statement made by one of those who post at this site:

It is so transparently obvious that a lot of the negative remarks about GMJ made in the Forum are so ill-informed and scapegoat seeking that no-one worth their salt is going to be affected. Any spiritual seeker would be turned off to start with by the base language of some of the critics let alone by the horrible paranoid attitudes expressed.

Let's take a vote, shall we? (Answer on a scale from 1 to 5, where 1 means strongly disagree, 2 means moderately disagree, 3 means neutral, 4 means moderately agree, and 5 means strongly agree).

1. This site is ill-informed.
2. His critics are scapegoating MJ to hide their own weaknesses.
3. You are 'turned off' by the 'base language' of his critics.
4. The attitudes of his critics are accurately expressed by the phrase 'horrible paranoid?'

5. Are you, yourself, (1) a detractor, (2) neutral, or (3) a supporter of Maharaji?

6. (Answer yes or no) Are you, yourself, Maharaji?

Please email responses to talkings@rocketmail.com or post on this forum.

Thanks,

Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 15:31:19 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: A wee survey
Message:
Why must I answer so many little questions. Can't I just say the poster is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong? But then don't forget, this is an ex-premie site, so it would be logical that the majority would disagree with the poster. And if we are to refrain from falling into the same trap that Petrough sets (that the guru having so many followers means he has something of value), we must address specific points of substance and evaluate the guru on those points. It isn't nearly as amazing that someone could be deluded enough to find value in the guru, as it is that his followers who post here are incapable of addressing any specific criticisms that we've made. But okay, since that's impossible I vote that the poster of those comments was all wrong.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 15:47:34 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: The survey concept.
Message:
Rick:

But then don't forget, this is an ex-premie site, so it would be logical that the majority would disagree with the poster.

This is why I have a control item, the question about supporter vs. detractor. Of course, people could lie. That would be fairly clear from the results, however. This survey is a bit facetious, but it might not be a bad idea to have such a survey instrument on the site somewhere. There would be problems with people posting multiple responses and so forth, but there may be ways to work that out. The issue raised is valid. Who lurks at this site, and what do they think about what's going on here? It's not easy to argue with empirical evidence, a principle I learned from my committee chair.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 18:53:30 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: A wee survey
Message:
1) 3 (not for lack of effort. It's a cult for god's sake)

2) 1

3) 1

4) 1

5) 1

6) not that I know of
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 23:14:53 (EDT)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jim and all
Subject: A wee survey
Message:
I appreciate your posts. I can't answer the survey because I am in a non linear mood and don't want to figure out what the numeric answers mean in Jim's post. I'd have to go back and re-read! but I agree with the tone, they are trying to bring us back to the truth as they see it - or if they've given up on us then they are trying to make a case for any new visitors to the site. hee hee - good luck! my theory is if a premie keeps reading here it's because there's something that is capturing him or her.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 13:19:59 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: A wee survey
Message:
Selena:

I understand. This really isn't a very good survey anyway. Everyone will be on one side or the other so the only significant responses will be to number 5. At least, that's probably the case. I'm just attempting to document the nonsense and lack of grounds for Petrou's assertions. I suspect he doesn't even have many friends in premiedom. You have to have at least one foot on the ground to make and keep friends.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 11:25:40 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: cadbury@compuserve.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: A wee survey
Message:
1. 1
2. 1
3. 1
4. 1
5. 2
6. No
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 12:05:23 (EDT)
From: Sam C.
Email: s_condon@yahoo.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: A wee survey
Message:
1. 2
2. 1
3. 1
4. 1
5. 1
6. No
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 14:29:43 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Mosquito repellant
Message:
Does anyone have any novel ideas for dealing with these guys (other than getting a bunch of ITALIANS, Rick [??])? Not to say we really have to, just asking.

Scott, with all due respect, somehow I don't think your sending Petrou any academic articles is going to quite settle him down. I don't know, call me a pessimist. Besides, I don't think you've really taken to heart the fact that he has a degree in anthropology AND archaeology and is, even as we speak, a student of Comparative Religion. Really, Scott, what could YOU tell him?

Kieth Simons (aka Vacol) is beginning to imitate Mili, is he not? First, taking my parody of M seriously and then making the same mistake about my 'apology'. And now we learn that he lives with Mirabai! Well, THAT's heartening!

Really, though, there is no problem, is there? Like some big Punch and Judy show, we all say whatever we say and premies who lurk here get a real live ongoing litmus test to match themselves against. Either you think these buffoons make sense ('How many world movements were you leading at age 10?') or they don't. I think in time we'll hear from lots of people who lurked, saw just how retarded premiethink is and snapped out of it.

As for numbers, think of it. The web is becoming de riguer for just about everything. It won't lessen. And we are the ONLY reference point for this entire .... movement.

Ain't that a peach?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 14:48:47 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Mosquito repellant
Message:
Jim,
The absolute best way to deal with whacko premies was the 'old Jim'; take them to task, repeat the facts over and over, insult them when they ingore them and then finally, when the premie proves they have no redeeming value, dismiss them. And then do it all over again... where ever did you get the energy. I'm convinced I could do a decent job defending maharaji and knowledge without being an absolute jackass, and I don't understand why Vacant Vacol, Petrough, Bruce, Participant and Mili are so outrageously stupid.

Personally, I don't think Mili can be matched by Vacant Vacol. I think Vacol has some sense of how his stupidity is operating, whereas Mili was just plain daft.

And since the old Jim left, these bozos are acting like this is a premie forum. I think your Punch and Judy theory is weak without the old Jim keeping the windshield clean.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 15:03:22 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: With all doe respect.
Message:
Jim:

With all due respect, did you really think I thought he'd ask me for the article, or read the reference? There is more than one way to get rid of bugs. As for the degrees, these are from that fine University in Fairfield, Iowa I take it? (No offense to the city of Fairfield.) BTW, I don't think he even knows who Clifford Geertz is. Too thin, if you know what I mean.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 15:22:58 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jim
Subject: Password protection
Message:
Jim,
Petrou has almost got me convinced of the necessity for a password protected forum. I just read the many messages that he posted last night and they are overwhelmingly negative, critical, lacking in compassion for his fellow man, and, because he posts the same message with slight variations in wording over and over again, could almost be construed as harrassing. I particularly take exception to the nasty posts that he made in response to people who were expressing their personal feelings. I also don't like his constant generalizations about the forum participants in general, and I am tired of reading about how awful Jim is (those who think that Jim is the Antichrist may want to set up their own forum.)

I realize that many people might not post on here if the forum were password protected, because they would have to reveal their name and e-mail address to Brian (it would NOT appear on the forum, but Brian would know it). What do people think? By the way, a password protection system wouldn't exclude premies from posting: passwords would be given to premies and ex-premies alike.

Katie
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 15:38:21 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Password protection
Message:
Katie,
I had the same reaction to Petrough's repetetive posts. It really does look like outright stalking harrassment. The lack of intelligence is so irritating. However, I vote against password protecting because it will inhibit some people from posting. I share your frustration but I'd like to see as little bureacracy as possible.
Rick
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 16:16:48 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Rick
Subject: Password protection
Message:
Thanks for the input, Rick. I think that Brian and I are also in favor of as little bureaucracy as possible. I don't have a problem with Petrou posting his thoughts and feelings, however negative, but I don't like to see the sincere people who post on the forum being harrassed by his many repetitive postings. (My only consolations is that Petrou's abusive, negative, and harassing posts are the example set by someone who claims to be both a practicing Christian and a practicing premie. God help us all if this is true.)

Regards from Katie
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 15:38:30 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Password protection
Message:
Katie:

Something has to be done. I'm getting fed up. I think it may be time to kick Bruce off for good. He's been given two chances and has not convinced participants that he takes dialogue seriously (in the sense that he sabotages it deliberately). The principle of unconstrained discourse does not require that such people be tolerated. Just my two cents.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 15:42:29 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Password protection
Message:
Katie,

I agree with what you are saying about Petrou. But I (for one) am for free speech. He has every right to say what he wants and we have a choice not to read his words if we don't want to. I would hate for us to be accused of censorship, because I do not think this would do anything to help the purpose of this site. Besides, Jim used to hound premies freely and he wasn't kept from doing this.

I don't really think Petrou's insults are very relevant. (I doubt Jim cares) I think Petrou is only showing how threatened he is by ex-premies with his attacks. It seems to be the old 'attack when backed into a corner' plan. Anyone with half a brain and a sincere heart would see right through his cruelty (or is that 'christianity'?) in a second. VP

P.S. Don't misunderstand-I'm not dissing Christians here, only ones who hurl mean insults at their fellow man!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 15:58:38 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Password protection
Message:
VP:

I think that is a naive attitude, but it's up to you. Petrough may be easy to deal with, and he may not. A truly repressive personality would be able to play ex-premies off against one another, without their even knowing it. I would not have the slightest hesitation about banning such a person for good. Read Scott Peck on the subject. It's the book with 'Evil' in the title. One reason it's evil is that good people, with good intentions, often to not perceive the damage potential until it's already played itself out. I don't think we are dealing with such a problem at this time, but it's an innoculation. There is worse to come, believe me.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 16:25:20 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: Petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Scott T.
Subject: Password protection
Message:
Scott - I have read that book (People of the Lie) by Peck (it was very depressing, by the way, and I'm not sure that I agree with some of hypotheses.) I'm not convinced yet that any of the people on here are sociopaths yet, but as Rick has said, I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. I do think that there is a whole lot of characterizing of Jim as an evil person that goes on here, and that bothers me. As VP says, Jim can take it, but I'd a lot rather it wasn't happening. I'm not sure how Jim feels about it.

I didn't understand the reference you made to Bruce in your earlier post in this thread - could you please elaborate?

Thanks,
Katie
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 16:45:13 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Password protection
Message:
Katie:

I don't think Petrou (Bruce) is really much of a problem. It's just that I think he gives us some idea of how bad it might get. There is a post by Vacol in which he refers to Petrou as 'Bruce,' indicating to me that they are the same person. Apparently Vacol (Keith) and Petrou (Bruce) know each other. Creepy huh? I guess I can live with letting them post here freely, as long as we have a contingency plan should someone become genuinely, albeit subtly, disruptive. Peck's book frightened me. I've known several of those people. Ordinary folks have almost no pretection from them, but it's what they do to communities that's really scary. Still, even according to Peck, the odds of a genuinely repressive personality showing up in a position of power is miniscule. The odds get higher as the size of the community grows, however. As I understand it, password protection would not restrict people from posting. It would give us a handle on the traffic, however, which may become a problem eventually. Petrou can be dealt with. I'll just stop reading him, and respond to more sincere people. (Do you think it's possible he's on a payroll for posting here? Perish the thought!)

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 17:02:04 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Scott T.
Subject: Password protection
Message:
Hi Scott - I don't think that Petrou and Bruce are the same person. Just a hunch. Also don't think Petrou is on a payroll for posting here - he seems to be what my old friend 'bftb' called a 'shit disturber', which is apparently a common species on Usenet and forums groups. (For example, by my count, Petrou posted approximately 36 messages between 5:30 and 10 this morning EST. The content of many of these messages was similar.) My guess is that he is bored and has nothing to do but harrass people on here.

Regards,
Katie

P.S. Is S. Martin Lipset your dissertation advisor?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 17:45:08 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Password protection
Message:
Katie:

Thanks for your cool-headed analysis. You are probably right about Petrou. Yes, Marty is my dissertation committee chair. I've got lots of stories. I've also been working with him on an analysis of attitudes toward labor unions in the US and Canada. He thinks I should expand my dissertation into a book on elections.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 16:06:39 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: VP
Subject: Password protection
Message:
Thanks VP -
It was Petrou's nasty comments in response to sincere posts made by you, David, and Still Crazy that really put me over the edge. If you don't think it's a problem, than that makes me feel better. Regards,
Katie
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 16:39:50 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Password protection
Message:
VP,

I've never hounded premies to do anything but stay inthe ring and fight fair. Is that what you meant?

Scott,

I used to like Peck but then I lost my religion. No kidding, I'd be most interested in your comments on the Lucifer Prnciple. Trust me, it's worth getting. (You cna always sue me later).

Scott, Katie, VP,Rick et al.,

I go back and forth on wanting to get rid of these idiots. They DO serve a great purpose in keeping the fence posts sharp and hard to sit on. (Hey, fence 'posts'. Get it? 'Posts'? Not bad, eh?) They also waste a lot of life. Sometimes I wonder if we'd each be hanging out here as much as we do if it weren't for the opportunity to joust wth our former brainwahsed selves.

Katie, I wish you could learn to control your temper better. Can't you find something nice to talk about with Petrou? And really, you can't tell me that he hasn't taught us all a thing or two about logic.

Seriously, I think a control mechanism like a password might eventually become necessary. I don't think we're there yet. But then that's only me. Bruce? Mili? Petrou? Vacol? What do you guys think?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 17:58:18 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Lucifer, the underachiever.
Message:
Jim:

I think it's interesting that the term 'Lucifer' is used only once in the entire Bible (Isaiah 14:12). It's a Chaldee word whose meaning is literally identical to the Greek word 'Christ.' However, the Isaiah passage seems to be using the term in an ironic sense, referring to someone that has failed to fulfill their early promise. Both Jesus and Lucifer are referred to as 'the morning star.' Does this fit with the concept of the 'Lucifer Principle?'

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 19:40:06 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Katie, Scott, Jim, Vacol
Message:
Katie,

Thank you very much. I can't speak as to whether it is a problem for Still who is going through a lot right now and it made me mad that Petrou was so insensitive toward him/her. You know today I have been called arrogant (which I interpret as being sure of myself and what I believe), whiny (which I interpret as sad), and naive (well, not me personally, just my thoughts. That's okay as it beats cynical!) It really doesn't bother me and I think it's kind of funny sometimes.

Anyway, I cannot stand this Petrou persons post content myself, but can you just hear EV and the premies if this site was locking people out? I think that is just a step in the oppostie direction. Take a premie post I just read talking about locking people out (Vacol?) That's the thing that I think would be the most detrimental about locking someone out-that very perception. I think it would hurt our credibility. (Like we have any with them anyway??? What am I thinking??) We will be accused of doing the following: 'Say anything, but if you say something we don't like, then you are out of here!' whether this is the case or not.

In the interests of protecting the feelings of those who post here (so people can be sincere without being totally flamed) You might have to resort to the following (check out THAT syntax, Scott). Though again, I personally am against it.

1) Establish some specific ground rules. Leave no room for interpretation on them. Post them ahead of time.

2) Anyone who breaks the rules gets a reminder from you or Brian. If they do it again, then they are locked out for a certain period of time. This consequence could be decided on by you and Brian and posted ahead of time with the rules. Then there would be no excuses... everyone knows ahead and then they are reminded when they break the rules. They would then make the decision with their actions. Is that a lot of unnecesary work and forum babysitting for you guys though? Is this even practical?

Sounds like a high school teacher, huh? Too bad everyone can't be an adult and then we wouldn't have to worry about this type of thing :( Hey, maybe that's the whole point to Petrou's little posts...trying to throw a wrench into the works.

Jim,
Yeah that's exactly what I meant. Remember: you=ex-premie=good....me=ex-aspirant=good, too. (I think premies=deluded=too bad, though, not premies=bad)

Scott,
Guilty as charged. I am naive. I haven't read the Peck book. I wish you had the cliff notes, as I have 6 books sitting here waiting on me. No, seriously, I think free speech is a good thing for this forum. I reserve the right to change my mind about passwords on the forum if you can give me a convincing argument that makes sense.

Vacol,
I think you are lumping everyone together just like I did above with those little equations. Shame on us.

VP
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 19:53:53 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Scott
Subject: Syntax
Message:
Dear Scott,
VP mentioned sytax and I wanted to thank you for your critique. By the time I read it it was inactive and I couldn't respond. I wish I could remember who told me 2 years ago or so that the way I used too, as also was wrong. I was taught that in grade school and then someone tells me I'm wrong and I just chalked it up to my faulty memory! As far as the passive voice goes, I am stuck there it seems. I've used grammer check to try to change that but each new way I recreate a sentence, grammer check has only one thing to say to me, Passive Voice! I finally stopped using grammer check and accepted that I am a passive/aggressive personality and that is why I can't find my way away from it. I appreciate all constructive critisim though really, Thanks.
Robyn
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 23:45:24 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: No Robyn, no.
Message:
Robyn:

What I said was that you don't have a problem with passive voice. The hell with the grammar checker. They always say that. Poor programming. Passive voice is something like 'The conclusion was reached that Maharji is a fraud.' Active voice is 'We [or I] reached the conclusion that Maharaji is a fraud.' I almost never see any passive voice in your posts. 'Too' means 'also' as well as 'excessively' as in: 'I think he's a fraud too.' (also) or 'I think he's too insensitive.' (excessively) I enjoyed your responses to Vacol, especially your story about the neighbor. Sorry that happened.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 09:42:05 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: No neighbor
Message:
Dear Scott,
The neighbor, child moslester was an analogy, a parable if you will. I'm just so good at it it sounded real! If that had happened to me I'd be FREAKING OUT!
You don't see passive voice in my posts because they are about me but when I write reports for work or papers while I was in school I do it to much I think. Hey, I forgot to tell you about my thing with commas. If I let myself go there'd be commas out the ying yang. They go everywhere or no where, like you said when in doubt.
Robyn
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:14:29 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: to VP
Message:
Hi VP -
I think you are right about the lock-out. Actually, I wasn't proposing a lock-out - just password protection, which is different. Regarding premies making a fuss about possible lock-outs on this forum, I'd like to remind everyone here that on the former premie site, ex-premies (and presumably renegade premies who expressed doubt about M) were NOT allowed to post. All the posts were reviewed before they were actually posted on the site.

I have calmed down some now - I just got angry when I read the forum this morning - read the flames of the sincere posts, and found that there were over thirty posts by the same person with very similar content all posted within a 4 and a half hour period. Maybe Petrou thinks posting over and over will convince people. I think it just irritates people. (I'd be embarrassed as hell if I were a premie and/or a Christian.)

I am 99% sure that Brian will not want to do any more babysitting of the forum. We have other things to work on that are more important, for one thing, and he's not the babysitting type, for another!

Thanks, VP
Katie
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:41:23 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: to VP
Message:
Katie,

We sure don't want to make anymore work for you or for Brian!! I got the difference between password protection and lock out. I was just saying I would prefer to see lock-out after warnings and posted consequences. It would not impact people who want to post, as passwording might. It would only affect the offender, and not anyone else.

Interesting point about the Premie website not being freedom of speech oriented. Why am I not surprised? Was this Mili's site?
Sorry to hear you are still sick. Get well soon, VP
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:13:45 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: to VP-premie site
Message:
Hi VP - the premie site was apparently the joint venture of Harlan Ray Cooley and our own Milivoj (I don't know Harlan, but some of the other people who post on here do.)

Thanks for the get-well wishes. (I bet several other folks on here also are hoping that I will feel better soon so I will be less cranky! Or maybe crabby is the right word.)

Katie
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:19:35 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Katie's sick
Message:
Katie,

I must have missed mention of your illness. Que pasa?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:57:56 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Katie's sick off topic
Message:
I have the flu. It's been going around our department all winter. Believe it or not, it's called the 'Boomerang' flu because it's been traced to an Australian tourist. I was hoping to avoid it, and thought that I had, but Peter finally got it and then gave it to me. (It's no fun. I've been sick since Wednesday and no relief in sight.) Anyway, if some of my posts sound weird or wacky, I now have an excuse (at least temporarily).

Thanks, Jim,
Katie
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 23:23:14 (EDT)
From: Melted cheddar
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Katie
Subject: Katie's sick off topic
Message:
Make sure you increase your intake of vitamins C & B and take at least two garlic pearls per day. Garlic is one of the best ways to reduce the length of a flu virus and also reduce the severity. To make you feel a bit better, have a bath with Basil.What I mean of course is put no more than six drops of PURE Basil essential oil in a pleasantly warm bath and soak in it for at least 20 minutes. Even better, put five drops of pure lavender and five drops of basil in the bath together. That combination will do wonders for any flu.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 00:16:08 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: David, Jack of Monterey
Subject: Katie's sick off topic
Message:
Dear David -
Thanks very much. I have the vitamins & garlic, and would that I had some pure basil essential oil! (I love basil, and if it were summer, I'd have lots of the real thing). I live in a sort of backwater and have to order all that stuff by mail. However, I will get some basil and some lavender (any special kind of lavender you recommend?) and keep it on hand for the next time. I do have eucalyptus, orange, and geranium, and the eucalyptus seems to help a lot.

Appreciate it,
Ms. K.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 00:48:45 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Minestrone
Message:
David & Katie:

About the basil. Would spaghetti sauce work just as well? Instead of a bath you could call it minestrone.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 09:34:43 (EDT)
From: Parmesian
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Scott T.
Subject: Minestrone
Message:
And sprinkle with finely grated Parmesian cheese. Katie would look a treat!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 09:56:52 (EDT)
From: Tomatoes
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Parmesian
Subject: Minestrone
Message:
Finally, add chopped tomatoes, origano and a touch of garlic pepper and we have Katie, our Dish of the Day.

Any lavender will do I guess Katie, I didn't realise was more than one sort.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 10:45:05 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Tomatoes
Subject: Minestrone
Message:
Tamaedas:

In case you haven't noticed, I seem to have developed a sort of 'soup fetish.' It snuck up on me gradually. Do I need help?

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 14:48:47 (EDT)
From: Messy
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Scott T.
Subject: Bondage
Message:
Don't worry, you can borrow my leather restraints and I'll let Katie pour it over you while you're in the bath.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 15:43:14 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Messy
Subject: Bondage
Message:
David:

This has simply gone too far. I'm a Virgo after all!

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 15:49:19 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Scott T.
Subject: Bondage
Message:
Besides, David, I don't have the right outfit (even though I am a Taurus).
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 21:36:17 (EDT)
From: French
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Katie
Subject: maid
Message:
No excuses Katie, I've got a very fetching French maid's outfit that would suite you down to your blue eyes and blonde locks. Alternatively, it might look pretty good on Scott.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 23:07:01 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: French
Subject: maid
Message:
Alternatively, it might look pretty good on Scott.

Now, how the devil would you know that? Who are you David, really?

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 23:17:33 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: maid
Message:
Scott,
Are you a blonde? This would put an end to robyn's theory about blondes and intellect, now wouldn't it? VP
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 00:13:26 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: David
Subject: my final offer
Message:
I'll agree to it David, if you'll agrees to give all proceeds from the video to ex-premie org (who else will want to watch it?)

P.S. I'd love to see the inside of your closet!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 06:28:49 (EDT)
From: David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Katie
Subject: my final offer
Message:
That's a deal. By the way this British type of humour of apparent sexism and crossdressing (as in Monty Python etc) might not be understood or go down quite as intended over there in the US. No offence was intended and if it went down like a lead balloon, it's because we're all a bit touched over here.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 09:55:43 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@Mail.trib.net
To: David
Subject: my final offer
Message:
No David, I am finally starting to understand your sense of humor. I hope Scott is too. After you said you wanted to see Mili in a sequined mini-dress, I figured you had a sense of humor about yourself as well!

P.S. No problems pouring soup over Scott if I get to be fully clothed (and I MEAN fully). If VP makes any more jokes about it, he'll end up in that bathtub too.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:55:01 (EDT)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: to VP
Message:
Regarding premies making a fuss about possible lock-outs on this forum, I'd like to remind everyone here that on the former premie site, ex-premies (and presumably renegade premies who expressed doubt about M) were NOT allowed to post.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

If the premi page was locking people out, they will look bad to people who come along. If we try and lock people out of this forum, we will look bad.

People should be able to say what they want. After all, aren't we trying to get at the truth here?

-Still
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:07:22 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Still Crazy
Subject: to VP
Message:
Dear SC,
I wasn't trying to say that it was OK for us to lock-out people on this site because they did it on the former premie site. I just wanted to remind people that the premie.org site did NOT have freedom of speech. Also, despite our efforts towards allowing freedom of speech on this site, occasionally it will become necessary to lock-out people on this site for making violent threats, deliberately appropriating other people's identity, or perhaps other offenses. This may be a restriction of free speech, but I feel it is necessary.

Regards,
Katie
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 00:54:49 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: to VP
Message:
Still:

I think the only people in danger of getting locked out are those who transgress the 'prime directives': Making threats and posting under someone else's name. Those two things are sufficiently destructive that, if necessary, I think we ought to take the heat.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:42:56 (EDT)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Password protection
Message:
Katie --

Thanks for your kind comments, and your efforts to protect me or defend me or whatever.

I have lurked on this site since before the creation of a.c.m, and had a pretty good idea what I'd be getting into if I started posting here.

I expect to be attacked from both sides, but hopefully my devotion to the truth will see me through. I have decided to post here because I think what's going on in this forum is important.

I also strongly favor free speech, and believe anonymous speech is the freest kind, so I oppose the mandatory revelation of true identity to any individual.

I hope I'm strong enough to handle the heat of posting here. If not, I'll probably leave. But at least I will know I gave it my best shot, without having to be 'protected' from any of the harsh truths that are being discussed here.

Thanks,
-Still
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:01:33 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Still Crazy
Subject: Password protection
Message:
Dear SC,
Thanks for your response. Looks like we are getting a mandate on password protection: NO! And thank you as well for the vote of confidence in the forum - I think it is very important too.

And I hope I wasn't too 'big-sisterly' (or 'little-sisterly'). Sometimes I just get angry. I have liked your responses to the flaming - they're quite good.

Regards from
Katie
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:23:49 (EDT)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: To Katie
Message:
And I hope I wasn't too 'big-sisterly' (or 'little-sisterly').

Not at all!

:-)

In fact, I wouldn't mind if you continued! In spite of feeling like I'm finally ready to post here, this place is still kind of intimidating!

Thanks for your concern,
-Still
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 17:29:55 (EDT)
From: vacol
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Password protection
Message:
While we are on the subject of Petrou's insensitivity...Katie ....Thanks a million for your non-response to my sharing my sincere and personal feeling to you last night .
Gee....I just love the blatent hypocracy of some of you ex's.
Or with some is it cowardice and pals sticking together games.?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 17:44:21 (EDT)
From: Vacol
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Password protection
Message:
Now it becomes a little clearer. When premies begin to make too much sense....threaten your purile little inflated egos too much .......respond to your hostile taunts and biased ,narrow ,self-protective inuendo's with a little fire power of our own .......when others reading these posts may (god forbid) realise that it is not the ex's who are actually sounding rational........when most of what the ex's are saying about M and premies IS A MIRROR that they cannot look into without seeing their own crap......then the answer is to think about banishing them .......you bunch of hero's ....I'm proud of you .

Honestly ...I have never in all my years found a bunch of people so unable to discuss rationally than SOME of the ex's who post on this forum and yet talk about the pot calling the kettle black!!!!
To end on a lighter note ...a little poem..

Bubala Jamie sat on a wall.....(far too high!)
Bubala Jamie had a great fall ...(predictable...sigh!)
All the Kings premies and all the Kings ex's
Could not put Bubala Jamie together again.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 18:18:36 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Vacol
Subject: WATCH IT, KIETH!!
Message:
Kieth,

You're following in Mili's footsteps in more ways than one, I see. First, you avoid rational discussion (remember, fella, you were the one who conceded that you couldn't do it right soon after your pompous beginning. No use quibbling,just go back and read your own words on the subject). Second, you act like a complete goof pretending to misconstrue obvious parody and sarcasm. Mili's great at that. But now you say:

Bubala Jamie sat on a wall.....(far too high!)
Bubala Jamie had a great fall ...(predictable...sigh!)
All the Kings premies and all the Kings ex's
Could not put Bubala Jamie together again.


Listen carefully, Kieth. I like to talk about Maharaji and, soemtimes, I even like to argue with premies. I like to joke around and I don't mind being teased. However, I draw the line at threats. Do you understand me?

Ask Mili. He'll probably lie any which way about what happened but I'll tell you straight. Mili threatened to punch out David Stirling (Brian's predecessor who, come to think of it, hasn't been seen since his tour of the former Yugoslavia last year! :) )
if ever he saw him. There was another threat, too, I believe but I can't recall off hand what it was.

Anyway, I warned him I would, he laughed at me and I then contacted his server and had his account cancelled. It didn't take long, in fact it was easy. He lost his web page as well as his ability to carry on like a ham-fisted thug.

Since then, he found another server and started up again. Once, when he started lying about my suggesting that all the premies should be gassed like Hitler did the jews, I threatened to shut him down again. He eventuallyy admitted he had lied and, largely because Katie and David talked me out of it, I didn't do anything.

But listen, no server in the world wants to risk carrying an account that includes threats. I'm pretty sure that if Mili's CURRENT server even knew that he'd been shut down once, and for what, they might shut him down too. I'm not sure. Maybe one day we'll have to find out.

So now you're dropping these stupid Perry Mason-style threats on me. This is the only warning you're going to get.

Do you hear me?

Also, if it ever comes to that, rest assured that I will send Elan Vital a letter explaining exactly what you've done in your guru's name and he can deal with you, Kieth Simons, in your next darshan line.

UNDERSTAND?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 19:15:53 (EDT)
From: Vacol
Email: None
To: Guru Bubala
Subject: WATCH IT, KIETH!!
Message:
NA na na na na.....you little wimp!!! you coward ....you really can't take what you give and you think I've got problems ...and WHO IS THREATENING WHO ...big boy?
Watch it ...you say ...,...watch yourself I say....
and once again I say
I know who i AM BUT WHO ARE YOU???????
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 19:22:38 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Vacol
Subject: WATCH IT, KIETH!!
Message:
No, Kieth, it's not that hard to figure out. You were threatening me. If you ever do it again, to me or anyone here, I'll have your internet account cancelled faster than you can say 'Let the Debate Begin!!'

Don't believe me. You'll see.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 01:36:18 (EDT)
From: Vacol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: WATCH IT, KIETH!!
Message:
WATCH IT JIM!
you are in great danger of being exposed as the paranoid idiot that you really are .....where in hells name did you (mis)perceive a threat .
You really are one of the silliest people I've encountered.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 01:47:47 (EDT)
From: Jamie boy
Email: None
To: Vacol
Subject: WATCH IT, KIETH!!
Message:
Jamie boy.....(and by the way KEITH...NOT IE)....I suspect that you know I didn't threaten you but you are rather desperate to discredit me in front of your misguided followers.....meaning anyone who seriously takes you for real is misguided.......at all costs . Even if your bully boy THREATS are followed through you are winning little authentic support.
I feel you have waged a powerful vendeta against Maharaji and are a powerful evil influence , which is not to say that M is innocent , but that YOU ARE A BAD THUG YOURSELF!!!!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 01:49:39 (EDT)
From: vACOL
Email: None
To: Jamie boy
Subject: WATCH IT, KIETH!!
Message:
Sorry should have read from Vacol to Jamie boy(Jim)
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 02:04:27 (EDT)
From: Vacol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: WATCH IT, KIETH!!
Message:
My error in mixing up the 'to and from 'boxes could be a Freudian slip ......because indeed I admit I would like to discredit Jim for the dishonest thug that he truly is .
Many here feel that Jim is really a nice fellow underneath....and when pressed against a wall he can play a softer role but I feel intuitively that Jim is one of the biggest phonies on the forum who intimidates both premies and any ex's who dare challenge him into a fearful passive roleplay....and then projects this dynamic imagery fueled by envy and pain onto whoever has authentic power .
WAKE UP......leave M behind if you want but realise a true phoney in your midst when it is so obvious .
Jim..James...heller ....many will applaud when your game is truly exposed and perceived by those you have influenced to play for your team.
You are a LOSER.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 05:04:06 (EDT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Vacol
Subject: WATCH IT, KIETH!!
Message:
I admit I would like to discredit Jim for the dishonest thug that he truly is .

Perhaps you could stop your Jim demonizing mission soon? All he has done is to speak his mind. For over a year now many premies have reacted to his posts in the same way as you but to little effect. You are starting to obsess about him now.

Despite your words I fail to see that Jim is the evil person you describe as I doubt the majority of lurkers here will feel either.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 19:34:12 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim gets a kick out of threats
Message:
Jim,

You certainly get a kick out of threatening people!

But you are so sly when you disguise it as a defense - g.

There is now a very long list of people that you have bad-mouthed on this public forum.
The factual record is in many archives.

CD
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 09:08:26 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Jim gets a kick out of threats
Message:
But, CD... how do you really feal about Jim? That's what we want to know. What do you think? All this stuff about whether Jim is defending, that's all pretty impersonal and objective. What about all these people in the records that he's badmouthed? Does that include you? Did he badmouth you? ...is all I want to know... Tell us about it.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 18:09:57 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: vacol
Subject: Password protection
Message:
What's a 'friend' Vacol? You'll always have a place in my heart.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 18:44:10 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: vacol
Subject: Password protection
Message:
Dear Vacol - You wrote
While we are on the subject of Petrou's insensitivity...Katie ....Thanks a million for your non-response to my sharing my sincere and personal feeling to you last night .

I appreciate that you wrote those three posts in response to me, but they didn't seem to require any immediate response in return (i.e. no questions were asked, etc.). I am sorry if you felt that I was ignoring you or whatever. I didn't attack you, if that's what you're trying to get at by comparing me to Petrou.

I assume that I am the one that you are referring to as a 'blatant hypocrite' in your post above where you say:

Gee....I just love the blatent hypocracy of some of you ex's.
Or with some is it cowardice and pals sticking together games.?
'

This statement makes me angry, and to my mind is a somewhat excessive attack on me for just failing to respond to your postings. Did it ever occur to you that I have a limited amount of time to spend at the computer and that I might get around to responding to your posts later after I'd had some time to think about them? And why would you want someone who is a blatant hypocrite and/or a coward to answer your posts anyway?

Regards,
Katie
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 19:43:26 (EDT)
From: Vacol
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Password protection
Message:
Have you noticed Katie that unlike some people who post here I am not afraid to say sorry when i think that I may have comitted a boo boo. SORRY.....for implying that you are a hypocrite ....that is a bit excessive ....but I then want to ask you ....why this abuse thrown at Petrou.?...there is nothing that i have read that seems to deserve that.
Unfair and hostile attacks on premies can also make me angry!!
Yours Vacol.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 19:59:36 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@Mail.trib.net
To: Vacol
Subject: Password protection
Message:
Dear Vacol - I appreciate the apology. I don't like being called a hypocrite. I try and be fair and polite, but some things just make me angry.

You asked for specific examples of Petrou's posts that made me angry - here are two:

Under the thread 'Sad it ain't so', please read the posts made by VP and David. Then read Petrou's response 'Sorry, but you're whining'. Under the thread 'Good morning' (near the end), read 'Still Crazy''s 'Good morning'. Then read Petrou's response 'Get a life.' I thought all three posts by VP, David, and Still Crazy were quite sincere testimonies of their own experience, and I thought Petrou's answers were mocking and insensitive. This coupled with some other responses that he made to people this morning (and the fact that he seems to post the same post OVER and OVER again), made me angry, and that's why I 'singled him out' so to speak.

Katie

P.S. By the way, password protection wouldn't block anyone from posting. They would just have to reveal their e-mail address to Brian, who would keep it secret.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 21:58:43 (EDT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Katie and all
Subject: The party's getting chaotic!
Message:
This little party (hosted by ex's) is becoming a little chaotic. Earlier on in the evening, when the doors were first opened, nobody really knew what to expect. Jim quickly established and expressed why he was here , much to the horror of some premies who stumbled in after satsang not really knowing what was about to hit them.

I thought early on that I wasn't in the mood for argument but mainly wanted to share with like-minded people as did quite a number of others. Soon little pockets of conversation developed and, through the general hubbub, one could make out heated discussions, laughter and the occasional more serious altercation usually from the general direction of where Jim was holding court with piqued premies who he was baiting into a frenzy.

Recently there have been some rowdy disruptive elements who, taking advantage of the fact that there are no rules, are quite happy to not play by any and are intent on spoiling the fun for everybody else. Incidently at Maharaji's down the street, where trouble-makers are immediately ejected by two very large bouncers, the party is still running without any disturbances.

Perhaps the time is approaching when the fellow whose house this is will have to consider advertising these 'get-togethers' as therapy sessions where sensitive souls who feel abused can find some support and a sympathetic atmosphere in which to heal undisturbed.

Those others who seek to 'sharpen their wits on the whetstone of others' or wish to debate more furiously will have to go into a seperate room. If they are really in a combative mood they may wish to adjourn to the makeshift boxing-ring out the back.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 22:05:43 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: The party's getting chaotic!
Message:
Incidently at Maharaji's down the street, where trouble-makers are immediately ejected by two very large bouncers, the party is still running without any disturbances.

Anon, what did you mean by this statement? Does M have a web site now? Just Curious, VP
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 22:14:19 (EDT)
From: Vacol
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: The party's getting chaotic!
Message:
These is your perspective Anon.....and although I feel grateful to whoever originally set this forum up and whoever keeps it running (as I have already expressed in other posts) , the fact is ...that once something like this is up and running it evolves in unpredictable directions and serves a variety of functions ....not all that are soft-core in their content and energy ....hey ....that's life ......what would you prefer ...a forum dominated by an elite serving their own purposes and agenda's .
Yes....if the sole purpose of this forum is to provide a healing enviroment for ex's.....and if you consider that ex's can best heal without being challenged by premies ...then limit its funtion and accessability.
Personally I feel any move in the direction you propose is selling out to a weaker forum.
The points been made a number of times that the now defunct premie site was heavily censored. Are their any premies out there who had first hand experience of the premie forum as I didn't have any idea of its existence....and would like to get a premie perspective on things about that.
Vacol
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 05:24:13 (EDT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Vacol
Subject: The party's getting chaotic!
Message:
What I said was kind of in jest.
At the end of the day I personally think this format is fine as it is. ie: a free for all. That doesn't negate the possibility that other forums could exist on the Net, with a different set of rules. It just hasn't happened yet and maybe never will. Who knows?

BTW I did not mean to imply that Maharaji has any websites or anything by referring to his 'party down the street'. Again, that was not meant literally.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 09:29:56 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: The party's getting chaotic!
Message:
Anon:

Your namesake, And On Ananad Ji, has a website and discussion group. Haven't seen him around, so perhaps he's doing a brisk business. I think I've got his URL someplace. BTW, I tried to stay clear of these jokers for a long time. As you know, they are of minimal interest to me. Other things are a lot more important. It just seems imprudent to allow them to post this outrageous nonsense completely unchallenged. I'm just trying to frustrate them a little. I have to admit, however, that Vacol is starting to become entertainment. Will contact you on Monday about that Anandpur thing. The secretary got sick so was out last week. Probably the same flu that Katie has.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 15:17:51 (EDT)
From: Vacol
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The party's getting chaotic!
Message:
Thanks Scotty ....glad to oblige!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 11:12:50 (EDT)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The First Crack
Message:
The first crack in Maharaji's dazzling, adorable façade so big it was never able to heal itself came for me when I was watching a video at the center about a year and a half ago.

In order to understand this, it is necessary to know about the 'Fakiranand Incident.' This happened way back at the beginning, in the fall of '72 or very early in '73, I think, so many here may never have heard about it. It was such a horrible thing that I'm surprised it doesn't get rather constant play on this forum.

'Mahatma' Fakiranand (whose name means 'The Blissful Beggar,' although an equally valid translation is 'The Blissful Charlatan') was a powerful speaker, a quick thinker, a persuasive debater, and an absolutely fanatical devotee of M. He told me once that if a premi wrote M's name in the air with his finger and then a non-premi walked through that air, M's power was so great that the non-premi would attain liberation in his next lifetime. And he actually did go around writing M's name in the air with his finger.

He was one of the first seven or eight 'Mahatmas' (Great Souls) that M brought from India to the west to dispense his Knowledge. Many of us thought they were saints, great and powerful holy men.

Back in the early seventies, the heyday of hippies and yuppies, those days of confrontation of values and emergent street theater, someone started a company that you could hire to lob a pie in the face of the person of your choice.

M was advertising on national TV (mostly via talk shows) during that time that he was the Lord come to rescue humanity, and this threatened the values of many Americans. Someone hired the company to smash a pie in M's face, and the pie-er was successful. He got M square in the puss when M was receiving the Keys to the City or something.

When I read about it, I had a good laugh. However, I had had no experience at that time in my life (I was only 19) with how wildly vindictive religious fanatics could be. The next day I was horrified to read in the newspaper that M had exacted a shocking price for this affront to his public dignity.

'Mahatma' Fakiranand waited for the guy who had pied M to leave the pie office and followed him to his apartment. The guy was surprised to see one of M's saffron-robed 'Mahatmas' at his door, but Fakiranand told him he was there to make peace, and the guy let him in.

Fakiranand told the guy he obviously didn't understand Knowledge, and would he like for him to reveal it to him. The guy said, ``Yeah,'' no doubt intending to expose it thereafter as a fake. (Actually, I never understood why the guy went with Fakiranand. I have always thought it was stupid.)

Fakiranand took the guy to an abandoned warehouse or something, had the guy sit on the floor, and told him, ``Now close your eyes and I will reveal the Knowledge to you.'' The guy closed his eyes and Fakiranand pulled out a hammer and bludgeoned the guy so severely about the head with it that he was bruised, bleeding and unconscious. Fakiranand left him for dead.

The guy didn't die, but I'm not sure he ever fully recovered. I think he was left with permanent brain damage. Fakiranand was sent back to India, but was not defrocked as a 'Mahatma.' The word circulated that M's forgiveness was infinite. Yet I have never seen any indication that the hammering was not in fact ordered by M himself.

M never apologized for this incident to the best of my knowledge. He didn't apologize to the boy's family, remunerate them, or try to make it up to them somehow, although such a thing is of course impossible to ever make up for.

As far as I know, he didn't ever even acknowledge publicly that the incident had ever happened. Just before he quit allowing the press to have any contact with him, I remember a reporter asking him, ``Guru, I'd like to find out more about the [pie/hammer thing]'' ``Yes, you should find out about that,'' snapped M, and went to the next reporter's question without further comment.

The Fakiranand Incident, and M's response to it, festered and fermented uneasily in my memory for years, but whenever it would rear its ugly head above the surface, I would say to myself, 'Oh, it was just Fakiranand's fanaticism. M didn't even know anything about it.'

But I was always uneasy that Fakiranand had not been un-Mahatma-ized, and for all I knew was still revealing Knowledge in India. (Although I heard that during the Big Split he went with Mata Ji and BBJ, who were apparently also quite happy to hire a hammer murderer to dispense This Most Holy Knowledge.)

I don't know how the newspapers got ahold of the facts (the version I have told here was actually augmented by the premi grapevine), but M has certainly never denied them. In fact, rather the reverse, as I'm about to relate, and when it happened it was the first time I came across something in 'my Lord' that was so unacceptable to my personal moral code that I found it impossible to reconcile.

As I said, I was watching a video at the center in that adoring, devotional, half-hypnotized and very open way that M's videos inspire (so you can imagine how hard this hit me), when M started talking about people leaving.

``The door is always open,'' he said expansively. ``But that works two ways. Anybody can come in, but anybody can also go out.''

``Yes, yes!'' I thought. ``M, you are so wonderful. This is no cult. Anyone can leave any time they want to. Of course, I would never leave. I'm one of the true devotees who really understands K & M.'' Then the strains of the intro to the song 'Our Father Has Come' started playing through my mind, ``If ever I leave you, my old friend, please find a way to open my eyes again.'' (All this happened in the short space when M paused to draw breath between the end of one sentence and the start of the next.)

His eyes narrowed, his brow furrowed, his lips pursed, he pointed at the camera with his index finger, and he said, ``And you know, [pause] everyone who's left has had their *reasons*.'' He said the word 'reasons' as if he had just said, 'moldy diaper with week-old diarrhea still in it.'

``Everyone who's left has had their *reasons*.'' Then he sniggered in that special way he has when you know he's about to denigrate somebody or some idea.

``I mean, there was *even* this one guy, there was *even* this one guy who left just because I had a particular guy still working for me.'' He sniggered again and grinned at the camera, saying non-verbally, ``Can you believe anyone would be so stupid?'' The supportive sniggers of the other premis spread through the hall.

But I didn't snigger.

I was aghast!

There was 'my Lord' sitting there with a shit-eating grin on his face, not only not ashamed of this incident that had been slumbering fitfully in my memory for 24 years, but he was grinning at me like he was actually proud of it.

And he was making fun of people like me who thought it was an unthinkable, unconscionable, reprehensible action that (like so many other things, I have discovered) he has never publicly apologized for or distanced himself from in any way.

I must have been the only one in the hall that knew exactly and precisely who 'the guy' M was talking about was. But there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that 'the guy still working for him' had been Fakiranand.

For the first time I believed that M might have actually ordered Fakiranand to beat that guy on the head with a hammer. And here he was right in front of me, grinning like the cat who swallowed the canary, belittling people like me who thought there might be something wrong with that kind of behavior!

``Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely,'' I thought involuntarily. Next came the most unwelcome thought I've ever had in my life: ``Could it be that My Lord has been corrupted by the enormous power he has wielded over large numbers of people all these years? Can it be that he thinks he can do no wrong?''

And then, ``Is it possible that My Lord is really an asshole?''

-Still
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 14:03:59 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: The First Crack
Message:
Still,

Thanks a lot for your post. I relate absolutimento. A few things either you or I are wrong about, though:

Pat Halley, the culprit, was the editor of a small 'radical' hippie kind of paper in Michigan. He thought the prank up on his own. Later, in the tv documentary, 'Lord of the Universe', not only is the actual 'attack' shown, but Halley gives an interview AND, at the Millenium press conference, the Newsweek guy brings up the subject. The premies 'assisting' at the conference try to shut him down immediately. All hell breaks loose and the press threaten to split, claiming that the guru isn't quite 'cooperating' with them. M says 'okay, okay' and promises to answer whatever they ask, but not before first bitching back that the press aren't cooperating with HIM. After all, he just wants to bring peace to the world, he says.

So, things quite down and the guy asks about the incident. M answers that it's something 'we're looking into. That was obviously a lie.

My understanding is that Fakiranand and a brother from the Detroit ashram went to see Halley under the guise of being an older disgruntled Indian follower and his friend. They were supposedly going to show him the technique for light, turned off the light and that's when Mahatma Ji gvae him the first technique (a little firmly, they say.)

The brother felt badly about this later but was never presented to the police. Instead he went to Hawaii, I think. I believe it was JWE who knew him and reported that. Maybe not, maybe someone else. Mahatma Ji was whisked off to Europe and banished forever.

Now, here's where it gets might interesting. I had never heard that Mahatma Ji was anything but, as I say, banished for good. Yet you say that he was allowed to stick around.

If that is true, that is, in my opinion, perhaps the most damning story I've ever heard about Maharaji. I think of Jonestown and the guys who did the first damage out on the airstrip (i.e. killing Ryan and th4e reporters) coming back in time for Jones' next diatribe.

So, how do you know this?

Thanks,

Jim
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:04:04 (EDT)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A bit shamefaced
Message:
A few things either you or I are wrong about, though:

Heh. It's almost certainly I who's wrong.

Pat Halley, the culprit, was the editor of a small 'radical' hippie kind of paper in Michigan. He thought the prank up on his own.

The name Pat Halley rings a bell. I really think this is the guy's name. However, I distinctly remember a pie-ing company. Hmm.

Are there any on-line news services that go back this far?

at the Millenium press conference, the Newsweek guy brings up the subject.

The press conference I described, where he said, ``Yes, you should find out about that,'' I definitely saw myself. I think it may have been the same one where the woman with the southern accent asked, ``Goo-roo, are you the perfect body?''

Now, here's where it gets might interesting. I had never heard that Mahatma Ji was anything but, as I say, banished for good. Yet you say that he was allowed to stick around.

He never came to America again, but I definitely heard he was still giving Knowledge in India. As I said, I heard, ``Maharaji's forgiveness is infinite.'' And as I also said, I heard he went with Mata Ji and BBJ during the Big Split.

So, how do you know this?

Well, unfortunately, as I said, much of what I know came through the 'premi grapevine.' And obviously my memory of events 25 years ago is somewhat warped and faded.

But I am very certain I heard he was serving in India. I also think I saw him in a video clip. Maybe someone who went to a Hans Jayanti there after the incident would be able to verify this. Otherwise, I'm afraid it'll just have to remain an unsubstantiated rumor for now, as I can't provide any hard documentation. Sorry.

-Still
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:24:51 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: Nothing to be sorry for
Message:
Still,

What? Are you crazy or something? There's nothing to be sorry for. We're all just trying to pry some information out of a very closed clut (hey, I like that -- 'clut')we happened to have spent our youth in, that's all.

So you were around since guruji was 14, huh? I'd love to hear your story -- who, when, where, how -- forget about why. And you were at the Millenium press conference too? Look, I AM going to send Katie a tape to copy for some. Anyone want to offer and I'll send another in hopes that you'll then copy it for others.

Chris, care to help?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:33:49 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jim
Subject: Tapes
Message:
As Jim said, he is going to send me a copy of the tape whic contains the Millenium press conference, which I am going to share with at least 4 other people (so far) - they know who they are. I live in the Mid U.S. - maybe someone else can do this for people on the West Coast? Also, I believe that David Simpkiss is going to do this in the U.K. (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Katie
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 09:52:38 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Tapes
Message:
Katie:

I can probably distribute a few to people in the east. I expect to be here until the end of June, at least.
-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 14:56:58 (EDT)
From: the sound ot the
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: prison door opening
Message:
Hi Not crazy anymore,

The guy ended up with a steel plate in his head.
Your intuition is probably correct.
I think the concious god is helping us stuck ones escape
more and more. And rawat to be more and more revealing of
his real nature.
This web site is perfect and the cast of characters is rich and
diverse.
You are right that he thinks he can do no wrong.
HE demands those around him treat him as lord and thats that.
Only the finest stuff.
He has so many moments of insane living as lord that the story
we will see unfolding is really going to be a hell of a
cautionary tale to those that want to play god.
He has had absolute power over those around him since a long time
ago and if you read bruce the deluded one, you will see
the closest excusemaker to rawat on the website.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 15:36:05 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: The First Crack
Message:
>Still Crazy says:
I must have been the only one in the hall that knew exactly and precisely who 'the guy' M was talking about was. But there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that 'the guy still working for him' had been Fakiranand.
For the first time I believed that M might have actually ordered Fakiranand to beat that guy on the head with a hammer.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Still crazy,

Your name is what?
You must have been the only one in the hall?
Sure, no doubt in your mind.
What is cracked?

You have pulled up an unfortunate incident from over 24 years back, mixed it with some conclusion you jumped to and use this combination of evidence to extrapolate some sort of weird conclusion.
Is this the foundation rock you base your understanding and life on?

Of course it did get Jim Heller excited so the post did have some dubious value other than another attempt at a lame smear.
And as a bonus you got to use the word 'asshole'.
Feel better?

CD
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 16:48:01 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: CD
Subject: The First Crack
Message:
Dear Chris - 'Still Crazy' was telling a personal experience. I don't believe he or she was trying to smear Maharaji - instead he/she was saying what he/she believed to be true. (Notice all the 'I' statements in the post? He/she is telling what went on in his head during Maharaji's talk.) Anyway, I don't read the story as a 'lame smear'. I see it as someone's story of how they decided to leave Maharaji. I personally don't believe that Maharaji ordered Fakiranand to hit the guy with a hammer, but I can understand how believing that it was POSSIBLE that Maharaji MIGHT have done such a thing might have put a 'crack' in someone's belief in M.

I'd be interested in hearing more people talk about their perception of 'the first crack' in their belief in Maharaji, if people care to share them. (Feminists used to call it the 'click' of recognition, if anyone remembers that.)

Regards,
Katie
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 19:19:21 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: The First Crack
Message:
Still Crazy's cracking case study is a good personal example of how people are swayed by nebulous information and jump to conclusions.
It has happened to all of us.

I can certainly understand somebody having personal doubts about M and K for a variety of reasons.
There are both good reasons and imagined reasons.
I have had both.

There is also a great deal that is positive about M and K.
This is neglected by most people on this forum when the goal is to trash M.
Why be honest when it might weaken the chance of victory in the debate?

CD
Life is more uncertain than a box of Almond Roca
'The path to glory is littered with f**k-ups' - Richard Marcinko
CD's Book List
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 07:40:37 (EDT)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: The First Crack
Message:
They don't listen to reason here.Its typical to take something and distort it and to also neglect anything positive.Your are right,this would only defeat them therefore they choose to ignore it.Notice how the odd quote or story is usually about 20 years old.And many of these people are still musing and mulling over and over again about these things AND they think this is normal!!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 18:26:41 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: The First Crack
Message:
You have pulled up an unfortunate incident from over 24 years back, mixed it with some conclusion you jumped to and use this combination of evidence to extrapolate some sort of weird conclusion.

Interesting choice of words, 'unfortunate.' 'Just happened' did it? I'll tell you what, let's ask him. 1. What happened to Fakiranand? and 2. About whom were you referring in your reference to someone 'still working' for you? and 3. Who left because of it? I'm sure the answers will be like being doused with mother's milk, don't you think?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 22:11:46 (EDT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The First Crack
Message:
Scott, You crack me up. Shhhh!

eb
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 18:33:08 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Chris, the hypocrite
Message:
Still,

I want you to notice something about Chris, if you haven't already. See how he CAN'T really comment on the nub of the situation?

We've had serious discussions here, both on the page and in email, about Chris' mental health. At times he's played the most uncanny Forrest Gump you'd ever want to meet in real life. But alas, he's a Gump with teeth.

Go ahead, ask him what HIS opinion is about the Fakiranand incident and Maharaji's role either before or afterwards? You'l see. It's kind of sick but, at first anyway, it's kind of entertaining too. Like athlete's foot, I'd imagine.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 19:01:51 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: An entertaining feat.
Message:
Jim:

I thought of saying something sarcastic about how easily you are entertained, but decided to offer a compliment on your compassion instead. (I'm not being ironic.) The issue here is that we may need to see what's behind someone's mask, for their sake and more importantly our own. Take care. You are appreciated.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 19:11:10 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: An entertaining feat.
Message:
Thanks Scott,

It wasn't compassion I was feeling when I wrote that about Chris. It was disgust. But -- you are so kind -- I really would like to come to some point of mutual respect with my fellow premies, former and otherwise. Alas, the truth gets in the way.

I've lost a number of premie friends just because I won't live and let live on the guru thing. Oh well, so be it.

Scott, just for fun, go ahead and try it. Try asking Chris something. It's hilarious.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 02:21:07 (EDT)
From: Vacol
Email: None
To: Jim and scott
Subject: An entertaining feat.
Message:
Your pathetic double act will eventually see you both have a rude awakening one day .....perhaps you will get down on your knees and weep tears of repentence ......of course right now it is very difficult imagining either of you being humble.....
YOU REALLY are a noxious pair!!!!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 10:13:25 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Vacol
Subject: At the feat of the Master.
Message:
Vacol:

You are such an astounding judge of character, I'm taking notes. I am not afraid to weep, and I will get down on my knees if I'm wrong. But, won't MJ have to answer something for that to happen? Won't he have to be accountable somehow? Or, is what you're really saying that he is completely innocent of everything and need not respond to anyone about anything? Maybe you should ask him the questions about Fakiranand? He respects you doesn't he? I'm sure you could approach this 'great soul' with some of your legitimate concerns about his mistakes, provided you did so with sufficient respect, of course. I'm sure you'll get right on it, and we'll thank you for it after.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 20:18:39 (EDT)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: The First Crack
Message:
Is this the foundation rock you base your understanding and life on?

I base my understanding on the very best I can come up with of perceptions, corroborations, cross-checking, etc. Do you have some information about the Fakiranand Incident that I don't have?

What I have related here is my experience. If there are facts which will show that my conclusion is incorrect, where are they? Why don't I know them?

And as a bonus you got to use the word 'asshole'.
You know, I just live to find excuses to say that. I hardly have any opportunities in my real life.

Feel better?

CD, I am going through discovering that the person I cared most about in the world has lied to me for years. I no longer trust him. The central focus of my life has evaporated.

Can you imagine how this feels?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 01:25:59 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: The First Crack
Message:
This Fakiranand thing has been hashed over many times and I really don't think there is any value in pursuing it.
Was he the guy in your K session?
I believe he was originally an engineer wasn't he?
I remember doing the Arti song with him early in the morning.
As you said this was a long time ago so I have heard many things about it over the years.

As far as how you are doing I wish you the best.
M did always teach to rely on what you personallly experience.
We all do certainly wish for what is not and get distracted by all sorts of random ideas that can pop into our head.
Ever thought that maybe somebody took something you lost and then you found it?

I did state in one of my other messages that I think that we all have doubts.
Some based on real stuff and others based on fantasy.
Sometimes I even find the thought of being on a planet in the middle of nowhere and an end to my life coming up as being a bit disturbing.
This existence certainly has its paradoxes and aspects that we will never figure out by thought.
It is amazing that we are here at all.
We should somehow try to focus on the positive.
It is amazing that we spend time doing what we usually do.
There are always the stories of people who had a really close call changing how they live their lives.
I remember M speaking about this many times.
Not to intimidate us but to prod us to make that change in priorities without the most scary of things happening.

I do think that in the inner stillness there is something remarkable that makes no sense at all.
There is something inside looking out of our eyes that is actually us.
My girlfriend just had her patient die today at work.
Our end is not far off either.
We have better things to do than dredge the past.
After all, we are alive!

Good luck to you,
CD
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 07:19:44 (EDT)
From: Vacol
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: The First Crack
Message:
That's all so true CD , and I don't say so as a premie to a premie ....but as one human being to another.
But CD, let me take this opportunity to ask you ...
do you know why Maharaji does not encourage situations where premies can really express themselves .....positive stuff , negative stuff....It's obvious that a lot of premies have and still are experiencing times of great confusion , doubt and anger.....and surely there are uncomfortable questions that do need to be asked and by ex-premies too.
I realise that some of these questions are just disguises for envy and egotism of the worst types.., ..but there are authentic questions too.....and not just from premies .
Why are there so few outlets for premies to share their thoughts and feelings? I mean why the huge focus on videos ?

Do you know Maharaji's perspective on this?
I never could really understand the extremity of the shift from so much community satsang to none..... ; and firing most of the instructors .....should Maharaji not tell the premies why he does certain things?
And should Maharaji show some outer care for those premies who felt and feel so pained and angry partly because they felt abandoned?
You know....just to explain things?
Not everyone has the type of unquestioning trust in Maharaji....and indeed was Krishnamurti not correct when he said (very often) to question everything for oneself.....and not to accept anything unless one has truly investigated the truth of it.
Personally I trust the Knowledge.....and I trust my personal connection with Maharaji , but for me that is so simple.
For other premies it might be far more complex.....and there are other perspectives.....like a more integrated perspective .....that gives more credence to the need for mental and creative expression......or the perspective that one should 'live' the truth....I mean really explore together as a community how to impliment knowledge into all areas of our lives.
Only or mostly listening to M via the videos seems too much one-way traffic.....so as a fellow premie do you have any thoughts about these themes ......actually not what M says but what do you think and feel?
With my regards....Vacol
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 17:35:44 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Vacol
Subject: a couple opinions
Message:
>But CD, let me take this opportunity to ask you ...

I'll give a couple quick opinions. I have no idea of M's logic.
A problem is that whatever is written on this forum is set and can be twisted into anything.
The medium is not conducive to a truely honest discussion.

>do you know why Maharaji does not encourage situations where premies can really express themselves .....positive stuff , negative stuff....

The public group therapy sessions may prove to be chaotic.
People can certainly discuss things, and they do, amongst themselves in private.

>It's obvious that a lot of premies have and still are experiencing times of great confusion , doubt and anger.....and surely there are uncomfortable questions that do need to be asked and by ex-premies too.

This has been the situation as far back as I can remember which is 1972.
M used to answer a lot of questions in public.
I am not sure that it was very worthwhile.
We seem to be able to generate endless questions.
I do believe that without an experience we will never have the answers that we seek.

>Why are there so few outlets for premies to share their thoughts and feelings? I mean why the huge focus on videos ?

This is a grass roots deal.
Premies can certainly do things together if they want.
The videos are the aspect of the whole thing today that is presented by M.
If somebody actually tried to organize all the possibilities they would see what a truely large effort is involved.
It is doable for M to provide consistent presentations around the world using the videos.
The same videos are shown worldwide which is pretty amazing considering the diversity of cultures and lifestyles.

>And should Maharaji show some outer care for those premies who felt and feel so pained and angry partly because they felt abandoned?
You know....just to explain things?

He would have to spend all his time explaining things.
I believe that he has focused on what is positive and doable.
The physical world certainly does impose constraints on time and space.
He certainly has acknowledged that people have problems.
He seems to be following in the footsteps of the best of the success wizards such as Napolean Hill when he looks to what can be accomplished and the future, rather than becoming muddled in problems.

>I mean really explore together as a community how to impliment knowledge into all areas of our lives.

People have to take the initiative in how they want to manifest what they experience.
M has done quite a bit to bring people together.

You can send me an email if you want.

CD
webmaster@cdickey.com
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 11:15:35 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Nicely written.
Message:
CD:

Very eloquent, especially: I did state in one of my other messages that I think that we all have doubts. Some based on real stuff and others based on fantasy. Sometimes I even find the thought of being on a planet in the middle of nowhere and an end to my life coming up as being a bit disturbing. This existence certainly has its paradoxes and aspects that we will never figure out by thought. It is amazing that we are here at all. We should somehow try to focus on the positive.

My life doesn't run on rails, but the issue of MJ's legitimacy seems to directly impact whether or not that life has meaning, or gets wasted. Shame on me for questioning it, but what the hell am I supposed to do? I can't even ask the guy about this stuff! I don't doubt that the core of existence is beyond thought, but is that a reason to abandon standards? You say all we are left with is to 'focus on the positive.' I say all we are left with is the capacity for informed judgment about a few things, with the possibility of Grace woven in.

I'm willing to let go a jacket, whether lost or stolen, and willing to let reasonable doubt free the suspected thief. But, stealing a jacket and taking the lives of thousands of people (or even one person) under your wing under a false pretense are not comparable infractions. And besides, I'm not even talking about punishing Maharaji, just divesting him of his 'crown,' at least until he becomes accountable. Is this what you object to? I really want to know...

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 15:11:07 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Absence of malice
Message:
CD,
I am sorry to hear about your girlfriend's patient :( You are right, we will all die. I don't think this website is totally about the past, though, as some readers here are in the present with these issues, you know? For example the guy with the kids, the girl with the inconsiderate boyfriend, Memphis Belle, Still Crazy, Selena, Vacol. But I agree that getting into a funk over the past and staying there doesn't do you any good for me in the long run. -g

I'm really glad that I am getting over the past. Hey, you got on my case but I'm over that too! You would still be fun to have a beer with.

VP
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 15:17:56 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: distracted for a moment
Message:
OOPS! That should have read: '...getting into a funk over the past and staying there doesn't do me any good in the long run.'
Distracted, VP :)
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 07:33:26 (EDT)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: Still Crazy is cracked
Message:
What a pathetic distorted old meaningless memory.Another twisted teling of the real event where some oddball got slugged at the pie incident.Big deal.Such a long winded boring account too.Do you REALLY get your jollies on something so trite??And to see all the Ex-filers jump in with sad little commendations over your 'story' is weird.They talk of 'shooting' and your worried about something trite that happened years ago.Wake up.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 10:00:01 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: New Archive Online
Message:
I just uploaded another archive (708 posts).

Must be Saturday...
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 08:05:16 (EDT)
From: Spock
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Empirical Logic
Message:
If you can repeat an experience using the same parameters you have the beginings of a scientifically provable concept.Ergo:GMJ has edged the art of meditation into a new era.
As the instructors said,it won't be a push button effect,this too was correct and hence part of the scientific predictability of the process.
You need a living teacher,you need a guiless heart,you need effort,you need to meditate.Result:peace,light,life.
Yes gang its me again,Petrou.You lucky,lucky,b------s.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 02:37:04 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Spock
Subject: for petrou
Message:
Hi petrou,
The art of meditation.
Well, I personally like to feel my breath in addition to
all the other stuff I do at the same time.

The problem for a follower like I was until recently is that
prem rawats views are limited in ways that do constrain
a followers life. If you look at him as god incarnate, or
in any definition of the master that he presented to us
long term followers, you really are stuck because he
cannot play the role of god. Or even someone who is more informed
and should be looked to for guidance on your relationship to god.

But You said he is responsible for bringing a lot of people
the best experience life can offer.

Do you mean feeling your breath?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 07:05:09 (EDT)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: for petrou
Message:
He taught me a lot of great things abut the spiritual path that I will always have. Understanding the secret of the breath is a great wisdom taught by many masters and the whole of Buddhism,so don't write it off as trite.I witnessed great things within from following GMJ and his teachings:no book ever did it for me.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 16:32:44 (EDT)
From: Nice to see
Email: None
To: Petrou
Subject: a post with no flaming
Message:
Petrou,

In an above thread I asked if you could discuss things reasonably on the forum and I see in this thread that you are attempting to do just this (except for the b------s part). Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that this what was I was talking about above. Thanks, it's a lot more palatable than the flaming stuff.

I am interested in asking you if it is the knowledge that you think is the great experience or the devotion, or is it both. This has been a subject of debate on here for a while. VP
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 07:10:36 (EDT)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: GMJ's beautiful smile
Message:
As I tried to explain below,its sad when people lose their sensitivity and judge others by their appearance or their laugh.Its petty,its cruel and it certainly is immature.One of the things that I have always liked about GMJ was his laugh,his smile and his lovely appearance.When the knockers here start to simply 'reminisce' in the same old insult mode I felt genuinely sad for them:getting their kicks out of cheap insult and not even aware of it.Come on Jim,lets get on with the expletives,its always your answer to a good argument.Do your thing.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:18:59 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Petrou
Subject: a tyrants 'inner lips'
Message:
Any larger person has a sort of cherubic face.
zha zha gabor said 'at one point in a womans life she has to
choose betweeen her face and her behind.'
Meaning, if you want your face to look younger at an older age
you need to add weight. And the behind grows as well.

Prem rawat does not have a laughing nature.
He is not a joyous person and if you watch the videos you will
come to see that.

One of the first things I noticed about this crowd of
so called christian guys I added to my friend collection
is that they laugh so easy. And the easy access to joy they
seem to have. And at least there is no dishonesty about
one guy being more godlike than the rest. And that we should
all become his servant, or call him 'father, or lord or
your eminence or holy father' or any of the other fronts
for tyranny.

We dont have to think of any of THEM when we die.

If you think this forum is going to become some live and let
live chat fest, it wont, we have a serious grudge here and
work to do. The tyrant is in the crosshairs and we arent
shooting blanks.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:26:22 (EDT)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: The Taxi-Driver
Message:
Once again the predictable insults.Look its time for people like you to get serious help.If you feel this way something is wrong with YOU.This will be the attitude of any therapist towards you because they know that problems this deep can only be the individuals responsibility and not ,in this case,anothers.Even the Ex-filers rules preclude threats.Mate you're talking bullets.What is this ,the TaxiDriver??
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:44:05 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Petrou
Subject: The Slave Driver
Message:
It is a reference to bruces or participants post where he
said he was firing blanks.

YOU of course think 'going inside' is the cure.
well, aanswer me one thing. Why doesnt 'going inside'
help his own family fued end?
His mom died and it STILL isnt over.
the brothers are permenantly seperated and ask bruce about
rawats bad behaviour. His fury and rages against 'stupid,lazy
and inconsiderate' people. THIS is the result of alifetime
of playing god and 'going within'?

A little honesty please.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:51:27 (EDT)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: The Slave Driver
Message:
Read the new testament.Did JC get on with his own kind:no.
Nice of you to cover for bb:if the officers were watching he might have been hauled off to the loony bin.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 10:07:29 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Petrou
Subject: Ill - logic
Message:
Nice of you to cover for bb:if the officers were watching he might have been hauled off to the loony bin.

bill is always sticking up for bb. They're joined at the hip, actually. Married to the same woman and everything...
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 11:47:50 (EDT)
From: oh thank you petrou,
Email: None
To: Petrou
Subject: that jim had me fooled!
Message:
Hey, I know it is hard to try to view rawat any way but
the way he has presented himself to us for so many years.

But, better late than never.

I made LOTS of excuses for his behaviour over the years.
So has many people. Truth is, we were all rooting for him
at one point and were very defensive and protective of him.

Unfortunately, none of the excuses hold up.
Historical references and any comparisons to rawat dont change
reality. The reality is that he is not a player at your
moment of death. He is not the lord of the universe even though
they played that song at the event in december 97!

Is it very responsible of us to just shrug our shoulders
and turn away and let him go unchallenged makeing this
whole pretense to more and more people?
For whose benefit?
If he was just playing regular old guru, that would be one thing.
But you know as well as I do that he is playing the lord
everyone has been waiting for.
Playing it so badly, that it will set a very bad example for
people to follow in years to come.
We wont be reverting back to chanting bhole shri's so
I wouldnt get very hopeful about some form of forgiveness
or perhaps some recognition that --HEY he really is the lord
after all and boy did my mind get me for a while there!--
Lets call this whole website a little episode of mind and
just save up for the next event! Meet you in amaroo!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 05:09:53 (EDT)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: oh thank you petrou,
Subject: that jim had me fooled!
Message:
I've taken the liberty of recording the psycho comments about 'shooting without blanks' and have mailed it to GMJ's legal reps.
How do you feel?? Nauseous??
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 14:06:37 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Petrou
Subject: His 'own kind'
Message:
Petrou:

Read the new testament.Did JC get on with his own kind:no.

One thing that puzzles me about that well-worn concept has to do with how James (Jesus' 'half' brother) got to be Patriarch of the eastern church based in Jerusalem. How did that happen? Jesus wouldn't even talk to him prior to the crucifixion, and he was certainly not a follower. It's just one of those things that doesn't quite add up, like the Ananias and Sapphira thing. Doesn't settle anything, but it does unsettle a few things.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 14:38:07 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: His 'own mind'
Message:
Well, for those that think there is a concious power,
they are free to live without the tyranny of a third person
being involved between them and god.

Tyrants always evolve as a result of delusion and power lust and
greed and misperception of life.

Finding an excuse for a tyrant to play god when he isnt
is something we will see here more and more.

The religions of the world are a source for religious tyrants
to emerge. Free men have to watch out for the snares of those
that deal in lies and falsehood and delusion.

If you want to look at jesus/yeshua, it is enough to glean
a few wise comments and build a life from there.
Certainly there are some of those there.

In amaroo this year on the second night rawat said that he
couldnt remember what his father said but it was the feeling
he remembers and basically the same goes for him.
So, false lord, weak theology, excuses instead of understanding
his own rages, reccomendation? love the master, serve the master,
listen to the master, send your money to the master,
convince others to do the same, let everyone believe you are
lord cause what difference does it make? its all an illusion.
Then hand the crown to your kids and the breath selling
franchise with your narcissist stamp all over it.
Sounds like jesus to me.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 07:10:43 (EDT)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: His 'own mind'
Message:
For the upteenth time,how about quoting GMJ when he said he did not want to start a new religion.Its these obvious mistakes that are made here that makes me wonder who the real Ex-filers are.Why wouldn't they know this or respond to it??
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 15:41:41 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Petrou
Subject: His 'own mind'
Message:
'For the upteenth time,how about quoting GMJ when he said he did not want to start a new religion.Its these obvious mistakes that are made here that makes me wonder who the real Ex-filers are.Why wouldn't they know this or respond to it??'-Petrou

There was a whole thread about this a while back. This subject was addressed at length. VP
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 17:16:19 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Petrou
Subject: His 'own mind'
Message:
Petrou:

How about dredging up the quote yourself? I'll respond to it. I warn you, however, what one says is not nearly as important as what one does. All 'masters' say they don't want to start a new religion. It's too much work. An uphill battle from the get-go. Most new leaders start new 'sects.' This includes Jesus. Christianity didn't developed into a full-fledged religion differentiated from Judaism until sometime in the second century.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 03:23:42 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: His 'owned victims'
Message:
Hi scott.

I hear you on the points about those two people that
you have mentioned a couple times.
I personally dont read the 'acts'
or ANY part of that bible except the supposed quotes of
jesus/yehua.
I cant be bothered with all the opinions of the apostles
and revelation is insanity to me.
The old testament is loaded with small minded heaviness
but there are some bright spots certainly and they
help reveal the nature of man and also god.

Of course debate can erupt over even those points but the
result of yeshuas story and comments are actually freeing
to those that get that result.

Tyrants large and small, regional or real local, in your
house or in your church or job, are there to get in between
you and god, raising up thier supposed importance, wanting
your attention and respect and obedience on some level.

They make one, perhaps ok, reccomendation and they want your
lifetime of respect and for you to listen to them eagerly.

Petrou says 'what about rawats beautiful childlike advice
to go within?'
And for this we have to accept another spiritual tyrant
and petrou refuses to see any drawback to rawat and the
rest of the bile he has dished out.
lap dog?
syncophant?
devotee?
apologist?
suck up?
prisoner?
not a man?
sucker?
deluded?
cult victim?
tyrants prey on people because they are mispercieving this life.
and they ruin what they touch. but still the victims bleat
thier thanks.
At least here they can come for the strength to break free.
While the staunch bleat out 'stay and give thanks and serve and
love the giver, the master, the tyrant.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 05:15:06 (EDT)
From: Petou
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: His 'own kind'
Message:
Jesus wouldn't even talk to him??Do you really expect anyone to believe you??One minute the Ex-filers are flying with expleteives the next they are supposedly erudite scholars of scripture the next again hard-core aetheists,then again,and again etc.Maybe you should submit your brilliant notions to the theological colleges around the world.They might need a laugh.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 18:06:46 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Petou
Subject: Petou Petrous out.
Message:
Jesus wouldn't even talk to him??Do you really expect anyone to believe you??... Maybe you should submit your brilliant notions to the theological colleges around the world.They might need a laugh.

Matthew 13:
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But [emphasis added] he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

The same incident is repeated in Mark 4: 31 'There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him... etc.. And yet again in Luke 8: 19.

You are probably tempted to argue he is merely providing an object lessen to his followers in that he regards them as equal to his own family, but the clear implication of the passage is that he places his followers and his Apostles above his family (if not his mother, then at least his siblings). What scholar of religion would argue with this? As for James being a disciple, I don't think this is controversial. James was not a follower until after the crucifixion. I did not say that Jesus never talked to his brother, merely that he refused to on this occasion.

Your rather nasty retort to a courteous remark is all too typical of the 'pseudo' scholar who, with naught but an undergrad degree and never having had the occasion to confront a demanding dissertation committee, or even submission to a refereed journal, believe themselves beyond criticism in their 'field.' You still have not convinced me you even know who Clifford Geertz is, let alone his significance to the social sciences or the field of Anthropology. Want to put my committee up against yours?

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 22:22:51 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Petrou
Subject: The Slave Driver
Message:
That last remark about my friend bb was very offensive, Petrou. And I am very surprised that any religious person would use an expression like 'loony bin'.

Are you some kind of fascist or something?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 07:19:27 (EDT)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The Slave Driver
Message:
I never use the type of gutter expletives so typical of many of the people here.Loony is about as mild an expression as Ned Flanders would use! Maybe you have a weird concept of how people should react to potential death threats.Perhaps you would feel better with totally emotionally unstable and dangerous?Or how about violent stupidity??
What next,are they going to ask the pope to come along too while they polish their weapons??Its definitely Mad Magazine material.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:42:40 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: a tyrants 'inner lips'
Message:
Bill:

You said that better than I ever thought of saying it. Thanks.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:57:26 (EDT)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: of mice and bullets
Message:
Gee Scott,you've just complemented a possibly deranged person.Are you sure you are on safe ground??It may be time to do a 'reality check' so just in case bb gets carted off you won't go with him.Also as you have agreed with his low facile remarks that makes you about the 15th Ex-filer tonight to use insult instead of actually reasoned argument.Congrats.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 10:29:17 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Petrou
Subject: Not 'shooting blanks'
Message:
P:

Do you actually mean to say that you think he's talking about real bullets? Give me a break. David Lane isn't shooting blanks either. He really intends to bring down some of these 'lords of the universe.' If there is actually anyone out there thinking about shooting Maharaji consider Pol Pot. His recent death has robbed us of the opportunity to bring him to trial and get to the bottom of what happens when someone convinces the many to put aside all restraint in pursuit of utopia. Most people think he may have been murdered by the Khmer Rouge to keep him silent. And no, I am not saying Maharaji is as bad as Pol Pot. Assassination is not a good idea, and is usually pursued by those who have no real faith in liberalism or justice. It's an act of 'wandering sorrow' in the words of the poet Rilke.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 11:51:45 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Not 'shooting blanks'
Message:
good point about -utopia-.
Hey it was participant that mentioned the blanks, with
the veiled refrence that he COULD have shot something else.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 03:38:10 (EDT)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I don't know what got into me
Message:
Hi All,

I read this and couldn't pass posting it here. I'm sorry,
I won't do it again. Really. Wait ,did I say that? I take it back.

>> > >Heavenly Entrance Exam
>> > >
>> > >The day finally arrived: Forrest Gump dies and goes to Heaven.
>> > >He is met at the Pearly Gates by Saint Peter himself.
>> > >The gates are closed, however, and Forrest approaches the
>> > >gatekeeper.
>> > >
>> > >Saint Peter says, 'Well, Forrest, it's
>> > >certainly good to see you. We have heard a lot about you.
>> > >I must inform you that the place is filling up fast, and
>> > >we've been administering an entrance exam for everyone.
>> > >The tests are fairly short, but you need to pass before
>> > >you can get into Heaven.'
>> > >
>> > >Forrest responds, 'It shore is good to be here, Saint Peter.
>> > >I was looking forward to this. Nobody ever told me about
>> > >any entrance exams. Shore hope the test ain't too hard; life
>> > >was a big enough test as it was.'
>> > >
>> > >Saint Peter goes on,'Yes, I know Forrest. But, the test I have
>> > >has only three questions. Here is the first:
>> > >What days of the week begin with the letter 'T'?
>> > >Second, how many seconds are there in a year?
>> > >Third, what is God's first name?'
>> > >
>> > >Forrest goes away to think the questions over. Forrest returns
>> > >the next day and goes up to Saint Peter to try to answer the
>> > >exam questions.
>> > >Saint Peter waves him up and asks, 'Now that you have had a
>> > >chance to think the questions over, tell me your answers.'
>> > >
>> > >Forrest says, 'Well, the first one, how many days of the week
>> > >begin with the letter 'T'? Shucks, that one's easy; that'd be
>> > >Today and Tomorrow.
>> > >
>> > >The saint's eyes opened wide and he exclaims, 'Forrest!
>> > >That's not what I was thinking, but... you do have a point though,
>> > >and I guess I didn't specify, so I give you credit for that answer.
>> > >How about the next one?' says Saint Peter, 'How many seconds in a
>> > >year?'
>> > >
>> > >'Now that one's harder,' says Forrest. 'But, I thunk and thunk
>> > >about that, and I guess the only answer can be twelve.' Astounded,
>> > >Saint Peter says, 'Twelve! Twelve! Forrest, how could you come up
>> > >with twelve seconds in a year?'
>> > >
>> > >Forrest says, 'Shucks, there gotta be twelve: January second,
>> > >February second, March second.......'
>> > >
>> > >'Hold it,' interrupts Saint Peter. 'I see where you're going with
>> > >it. And I guess I see your point, though that wasn't quite what I
>> > >had in mind. I'll give you credit for that one too.'
>> > >'Let's go on with the next and final question.' says Saint Peter,
>> > >'Can you tell me God's first name?'
>> > >
>> > >Forrest says, 'Well, shore, I know God's first name.
>> > >Everybody knows it. It's Howard.'
>> > >
>> > >'Howard?!' asks Saint Peter. 'What makes you think it's Howard?!'
>> > >
>> > >Forrest answers, 'It's in the prayer.'
>> > >
>> > >'The prayer?' asks Saint Peter, 'Which prayer?'
>> > >
>> > >'You know, The Lord's Prayer,' responds Forrest:
>> > >'Our Father, which art in Heaven, Howard be thy name......'
>> > >
>>

GAGBWYA

-gumby
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 04:19:12 (EDT)
From: Vacol
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: I don't know what got into me
Message:
lol....got me with that one gumby!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 06:51:02 (EDT)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: Vacol
Subject: I don't know what got into me
Message:
Nice one Gumby.Humour is definitely a plus and in this forum very educational because there are a few others(no names mentioned)who think humour is sassy slander and swearing.How did they ever get that idea??
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:46:03 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: I don't know what got into me
Message:
Gumby:

Very cute. So what does Gump think about 'Howard's End' do you suppose?

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index