Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 32

From: Dec 10, 1998

To: Dec 22, 1998

Page: 2 Of: 5



barney -:- Rome 76 Han Jayanti -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 01:28:40 (EST)
__Marv -:- Rome 76 Han Jayanti -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 03:06:38 (EST)
____AJW -:- Rome 76 Han Jayanti -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 06:43:28 (EST)
______Gail -:- Rome 76 Han Jayanti -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 18:40:05 (EST)
________sr blutarsky -:- Rome 76 Han Jayanti -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:04:56 (EST)
__dv -:- Rome 76 Han Jayanti -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 01:03:07 (EST)

Jim -:- A useless mental exercise? (1) -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 23:55:30 (EST)
__Jim -:- A useless mental exercise? (2) -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 23:56:17 (EST)
__Jerry -:- Not at all -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 16:49:22 (EST)

chr -:- Beach Boys and other matters -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 23:54:26 (EST)
__srb -:- and other matters -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 00:13:46 (EST)
__dv -:- Beach Boys and other matters -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 00:18:16 (EST)
____chr -:- Beach Boys and other matters -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 00:45:07 (EST)
____John -:- memories of grovelling -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 12:59:35 (EST)
______Helen -:- memories of grovelling -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 17:53:20 (EST)
__JW -:- Beach Boys and other matters -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 13:40:56 (EST)
____Helen -:- Beach Boys and other matters -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 17:57:28 (EST)
____chr -:- Beach Boys and other matters -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 18:15:55 (EST)
__JW -:- Beach Boys and other matters -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 13:59:16 (EST)
__Helen -:- The crazy years -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 17:49:33 (EST)

Marv -:- POETRY -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 17:38:30 (EST)
__dv -:- More POETRY-sort of -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 22:02:49 (EST)
____Marv -:- More POETRY-sort of -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 02:31:53 (EST)
______Gail -:- More POETRY-sort of -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 20:38:34 (EST)

JW -:- Excluding Certain People -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 17:01:30 (EST)
__JW -:- Correction -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 17:07:40 (EST)
__Sir David -:- Excluding Certain People -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 21:16:53 (EST)
____RT -:- A Sat-Song for you. -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 22:09:52 (EST)
______Gail -:- You're such a sweetie, RT -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 01:39:02 (EST)
____dv -:- Some questions. -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 23:13:37 (EST)
______unnamed -:- posting anonomously -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 00:37:54 (EST)
________Brian -:- posting anonomously -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 01:52:17 (EST)
______david m -:- Some questions. -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 14:20:32 (EST)
________Malibu Mole -:- Some questions. -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 22:05:52 (EST)
________srb -:- Some questions. -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:19:24 (EST)
__________david m -:- Some questions. -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 11:34:32 (EST)
____________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Some questions. OT -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 16:26:44 (EST)
______________david m -:- Some questions. OT -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 09:19:42 (EST)
________dv -:- Some questions. -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 09:21:18 (EST)
______Helen -:- Some questions. -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 20:19:02 (EST)
________Helen -:- Divine choke chains -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 07:38:48 (EST)
________dv -:- Some questions. -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 00:29:59 (EST)
____Helen -:- Excluding Certain People -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 20:10:31 (EST)
______John -:- Totally off topic -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 10:52:37 (EST)
________Helen -:- Totally off topic -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 11:17:48 (EST)
__________Helen -:- Totally off topic ( Addendum) -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 11:36:53 (EST)
__________John -:- Totally off topic -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 13:07:17 (EST)

Jerry -:- If it wasn't for sex... -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:16:43 (EST)
__Mike -:- If it wasn't for sex... -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:24:29 (EST)
__peter -:- Don't believe everything... -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 22:27:49 (EST)
____Jerry -:- Personally -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 09:40:22 (EST)
______Katie -:- Taxonomy (ot) -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 10:47:48 (EST)
________Jerry -:- Things have changed -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 13:01:50 (EST)
__________Katie -:- Thanks, Jerry (nt) -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 13:10:15 (EST)
____________Katie -:- And Jerry... -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 13:34:03 (EST)
______________Jerry -:- Everybody forgets -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 14:32:42 (EST)
__________Jim -:- I'm impressed -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 22:24:42 (EST)
____________Jerry -:- Maharaji isn't -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 13:40:25 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- Things have changed -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 18:02:23 (EST)
______peter -:- ouch! ouch! get a grip! -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:46:52 (EST)
________Jerry -:- Peter, please -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 10:47:12 (EST)
__________Peter -:- biology brawl continued -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 21:10:47 (EST)
____________Jerry -:- biology brawl continued -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 09:47:16 (EST)
______________peter -:- biology brawl continued -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 11:38:08 (EST)
________________Jerry -:- biology brawl continued -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 15:42:44 (EST)
________________Jerry -:- biology brawl continued -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 02:33:28 (EST)
__________________peter -:- a little chunk for you -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 13:54:07 (EST)
____________________Jerry -:- What's important here -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 16:31:42 (EST)
______________________peter -:- ...is the process -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 18:23:03 (EST)
________________________Jerry -:- The end. (I hope) -:- Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 01:27:10 (EST)
__________________________peter -:- brief apology -:- Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 12:49:50 (EST)

Jim -:- More Special Moments -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 11:20:45 (EST)
__g's mom -:- 'I personally think it's cucko -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:26:13 (EST)
____dv -:- Such a frenzy, I HAD to take -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 23:36:01 (EST)
____Saul -:- 'I personally think it's cucko -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 00:39:15 (EST)
__seymour -:- God! He doesn't have a shirt -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 15:30:50 (EST)
__JW -:- More Special Moments -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 16:05:21 (EST)
____Jim -:- Sheldon Jaffe speaks today -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 19:38:36 (EST)
__chr -:- More Special Moments -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 23:02:15 (EST)
____Jim -:- You mean this, chr? - JM read -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 23:47:21 (EST)
______chr -:- You mean this, chr? - JM read -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 00:05:18 (EST)
______Jean-Michel -:- You mean this, chr? - JM read -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 10:58:42 (EST)
________bill -:- You mean this, chr? - JM read -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:47:10 (EST)
______Helen -:- You mean this, chr? - JM read -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 10:19:27 (EST)

nitpicker -:- Another one bites the dust -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 07:55:37 (EST)
__Saul -:- Another one bites the dust -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 11:29:49 (EST)
____John -:- My 2 cents -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:13:25 (EST)
____Mike -:- If they are real, why... -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:16:00 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- What do you mean by 'real?' -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 20:13:40 (EST)
________Helen -:- What do you mean by 'real?' -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 10:29:22 (EST)
______Saul -:- If they are real, why... -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 22:41:15 (EST)
________Jim -:- I don't think so, Saul -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 23:01:34 (EST)
__________Saul -:- I don't think so, Saul -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 00:27:02 (EST)
____________Katie -:- What Bob Mishler said -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 01:04:56 (EST)
______________nitpicker -:- What Bob Mishler said -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 07:17:51 (EST)
________________Katie -:- What Bob Mishler said -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 10:21:46 (EST)
________________JW -:- What Bob Mishler said -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 14:59:16 (EST)
__________________Saul -:- balance -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 18:54:47 (EST)
____________________Katie -:- Balance -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 19:20:41 (EST)
____________________Jim -:- not any more! -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 19:33:30 (EST)
____________________Helen -:- balance -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 10:44:34 (EST)
____________________dv -:- balance -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 00:20:50 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- A case in point -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:56:45 (EST)
______________Saul -:- A case in point -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 00:12:46 (EST)
______________ham -:- A case in point -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 04:53:40 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- If they are real, why... -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 01:24:02 (EST)
__________ham -:- If they are real, why... -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 19:56:05 (EST)
____nitpicker -:- Another one bites the dust -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:48:19 (EST)
__CD -:- Another one bites the dust -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 14:12:59 (EST)
____seymour -:- Another one bites the dust -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 15:15:30 (EST)
______Helen -:- Feeling/thinking -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 10:54:16 (EST)
____Mike -:- Another one bites the dust -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 16:47:57 (EST)
____ham -:- Desolation -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 20:08:13 (EST)
______Mike -:- Desolation -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 12:15:30 (EST)
________ham -:- Desolation -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 20:20:08 (EST)
__________eb -:- To ham - OT -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 13:46:45 (EST)

barney -:- Events - the Master Database -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 01:46:50 (EST)
__g's mom -:- please explain how this works -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 11:09:08 (EST)
____Gail -:- BARNEY IS RIGHT ON THE MONEY -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 11:58:18 (EST)
____barney -:- please explain how this works -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 13:08:51 (EST)
______Marv -:- please explain how this works -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 15:41:19 (EST)
________Marv -:- please explain how this works -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 16:49:05 (EST)
__________x -:- please explain how this works -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 17:25:57 (EST)
____________Gail -:- X-Add to Pasedena transcript? -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 17:35:31 (EST)
______________x -:- X-Add to Pasedena transcript? -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 23:26:56 (EST)
________________Jim -:- X-Add to Pasedena transcript? -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 00:02:54 (EST)
__________________ham -:- Phase2/jim/x -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 19:25:47 (EST)
________________Gail -:- Thanks, X! -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 01:56:09 (EST)
________________CD -:- X-cept -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 16:35:50 (EST)
__________________Jim -:- X-cretia -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 20:30:33 (EST)
________another ex-premie -:- broken english -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 20:20:47 (EST)
__________barney -:- shrieking, screeching english -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 02:59:00 (EST)
____________ham -:- shrieking, screeching english -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 19:30:56 (EST)

barney -:- the damn remote control -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 00:34:51 (EST)
__Mickey the Pharisee -:- the damn remote control -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 01:21:06 (EST)
____barney -:- Bhole Shri Guru Mariachi! (nt) -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 01:37:02 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Guru Mariachi -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 09:11:34 (EST)
______eb -:- Guru Mariachi -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 11:57:29 (EST)
________Mickey the Mariachi -:- Guru Mariachi -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 16:39:47 (EST)
____Mike -:- Oh my Guru mariachi -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:11:29 (EST)
______Guru Mariachi -:- Oh my Guru mariachi -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 16:50:24 (EST)

God -:- Hey Gail -:- Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 23:48:11 (EST)
__stark raving -:- Hail -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 00:21:27 (EST)
__eb -:- My Letter to God -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 13:57:12 (EST)
____eb -:- P.S. -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 14:01:08 (EST)
______the omnishunt one -:- Dear Rabbit -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 14:29:22 (EST)
________eb -:- You poor, poor thing... -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 15:13:10 (EST)
____ham -:- My Letter to God -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 20:29:52 (EST)
____Heaven.org -:- I'm here Angel! -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 00:44:03 (EST)
______eb -:- I had almost given up hope... -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 13:09:52 (EST)

Jim -:- I told you so! -:- Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 22:49:53 (EST)
__Jim -:- See? Here's another one -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 10:29:18 (EST)
____nitpicker -:- See? Here's another one -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:31:58 (EST)
______Mike -:- Sounds like a horror film -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:46:34 (EST)
______ham -:- See? Here's another one -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 20:39:25 (EST)
____Jim -:- Happy new breath! Happy new br -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 19:13:31 (EST)

Jim -:- The personality trick -:- Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 22:47:04 (EST)

Jim -:- 'Would you have my baby?' -:- Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 21:40:56 (EST)
__Gail -:- Ask Laurie. Please read Jim. -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 02:15:37 (EST)
__bill cliton -:- 'Would you have my baby?' -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 11:20:19 (EST)
____Mike -:- Bwah, ha ha ha ha ha -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:26:11 (EST)
____Laughing makes you live -:- longer..thanks EB!! (nt) -:- Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:31:50 (EST)


Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 01:28:40 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rome 76 Han Jayanti
Message:
ok, maybe it was '77 I can't remember anymore, but I do remember this and want to know if anyone else does. (I'm bringing this up because recent posts have broached the topic.)

Anyway, somehow it was a special Hans Jayanti (Birthday of BM's father and guru.) One of the key moments was BM sitting, I believe, in the audience with us as we viewed some old movie clips of his father. One scene showed Shri Hans scratching his head with his hand.

So, during the next day or the next satsang, BM does the same little head scratch move.

At the time I thought it was profound as it was clear proof that the spirit of the old master had, indeed, passed into and was living in the new master.

Did anyone else notice this? At this point I'm more than skeptical and believe that it was a concsious effort by BM to make the show the really big show.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 03:06:38 (EST)
From: Marv
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Rome 76 Han Jayanti
Message:
There was a Rome'77 program but I do'nt recall what you've posted. It all sounds like a Star Trek movie to me; The Search for Spock. Where Spock's spirit was transfered to McCoy and then McCoy had Spocks mannerisms??? I am skeptical about the whole master thing. When I came to Maharaji I was not looking for a master, I know allot of premies were looking for the messiah of our time when they requested knowledge. I was looking for knowledge not a messiah, or more correctly truth. I believe allot of premies are dissatified Christians who carried their cosmology into premie-hood. I accept Jesus, Krishna, etc. as highly developed, but not as Lord or the son of God. I was and agnostic when I requested knowledge. I just have lots of problems with this master thing. I believe if there is a Master it's the unincarnated limitless one being I call GOD. I am very skeptical of people who want to call themselves master. As you might recall Maharaji's mother, before she died, said Prem Rawat was not the Perfect Master. Whatever, Iam not looking for a master unless it's a very sexy woman (joke, joke).
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 06:43:28 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Marv
Subject: Rome 76 Han Jayanti
Message:
Wasn't that the Hans Jayanti where Maharaji looked round the hall of about 15,000 and said something like, 'One day this place won't be big enough to hold all the instructors, let alone the premies.'
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 18:40:05 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Rome 76 Han Jayanti
Message:
I think that was Rome 77 (not that it matters). I sent Brian the gift package that MJ gave us that year. If you want to read some of that satsang from that shindig, maybe Brian can put it on line. Remember the magazine that was given to each of us (silver cover with Shri M playing the flute on the front) when we arrived. In addition to the constipation caused by the pasta and Nutella at every meal, it was the only 'gift' that most premies ever received from MJ.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:04:56 (EST)
From: sr blutarsky
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Rome 76 Han Jayanti
Message:
Hi Gail

That handout you mentioned, remember the inside photos?

On the left page, raja was holding his wife's second child.
It was raja ji's first.
And in that photo, raja looked completely fried and his child
was crying.

On the right page, prem rawat was standing out of the roof
of a car with hansi in a good mood.
prem rawat himself looked stoned to my wife.
I was pissed that she said that.

Does he look stoned to YOU in that photo?
I think she is on to something.

Another thing, WHY, when raja was unemployed and didn't
have a job to rush off to, didn't they take a better shot?
And why wasn't he allowed to hold his wife's first child?
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 01:03:07 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Rome 76 Han Jayanti
Message:
Having been up all night doing security, I didn't notice much. I do remember Lemon coming down the long stairs from the throne with a cup of cappucino prashad, and letting me have a sip. If you put your mind to it, you can get high on anything.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 23:55:30 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A useless mental exercise? (1)
Message:
[Here's the kind of stuff Maharaji says brings one no close to understanding life. I say he's wrong. What do you think?]

When Evolution Creates the Same Design Again and Again

By NATALIE ANGIER [clipped from the CNN page]

Nature is like Henny Youngman: She writes great jokes, and then flogs them again and again.

Take the spiny anteater of Australia, the pangolin of Africa, and the giant anteater of Latin America (please!). Each of these mammals has a long, sticky, worm-like tongue, no teeth to speak of and scimitar claws.

Each has bulging salivary glands, a stomach as rugged as a cement mixer and an absurd, extenuated, hairless snout that looks like a cross between a hot dog and a swizzle stick.

Despite their many resemblances, the three creatures are unrelated to one another; the spiny anteater, in fact, lays eggs and is a close cousin of the duck-billed platypus.

What has yoked them into morphological similitude is a powerful and boundlessly enticing process called evolutionary convergence. By the tenet of convergence, there really is a best approach and an ideal set of tools for grappling with life's most demanding jobs.

The spiny anteater, pangolin and giant anteater all subsist on a diet of ants and termites, and myrmecophagy, it turns out, is a taxing, specialized trade.

As a result, the predecessors of today's various ant hunters gradually, and quite independently, converged on the body plan most suited to exploit a food resource that violently resists exploitation.

Scientists from Charles Darwin onward have been aware of convergent evolution and described examples of it with fascination and joy: the architectural parallelism of the wings of the bat, the bird, and the extinct pterodactyl, all having arisen independently but all having resulted from a similar modification of the vertebrate forelimb; and the concordantly streamlined profile of the shark -- a fish -- and the whale -- a descendant of a ratty, wolflike land mammal.

Lately, the study of evolutionary convergence has taken on a new twist, as researchers look beyond such flamboyant cases of anatomical homology to detect subtle instances of convergence among molecules. They have found striking analogies between the antifreeze proteins that allow two unrelated groups of fish swimming on opposite ends of the globe to endure in icy waters. They have detected a bizarre form of antibody protein in species as different as camels and sharks -- antibodies that look eerily like each other, and unlike the antibodies of most vertebrate creatures, yet that evolved their unorthodox proteinous conformations along entirely autonomous pathways.

'Convergence is a really interesting part of the machinery of evolution,' said Dr. Rudolf A. Raff, an evolutionary developmental biologist at the Molecular Biology Institute of Indiana University in Bloomington.

'Convergences keep happening because organisms keep wanting to do similar things, and there are only so many ways of doing them, as dictated by physical laws.'

The issue of convergence also plays into a recent philosophical debate between two prominent evolutionary biologists, Dr. Stephen Jay Gould of Harvard University and Dr. Simon Conway Morris of Cambridge University.

In his best-selling book, 'Wonderful Life' (W. W. Norton, 1989), about the discovery of the Burgess Shale, a trove of 70,000 fossils half a billion years old, Dr. Gould emphasizes the importance of what he calls contingency, the idea that many of the species we see today are here by dint of a series of accidents -- an asteroid that struck the earth, for example, thereby eliminating the dinosaurs and making way for the rise of mammals.

If you could rewind the tape of life and run the whole program over again, Dr. Gould said, you would end up with a radically different set of organisms, one almost certainly devoid of anything as cortically overendowed as we Homo sapiens are. He has criticized many of his colleagues for engaging in what he considers to be excessive adaptationist thinking, a 'Panglossian' faith that the fittest survive, that evolution invariably progresses from simple to complex and from stupid to clever, and that what is, is for the best.

Earlier this year, however, Dr. Conway Morris, one of the discoverers of the Burgess Shale, took issue with many of Dr. Gould's ideas in a new book, 'The Crucible of Creation' (Oxford University Press).

Rewinding the tape of life may not result in such a drastic change, Dr. Conway Morris insisted, one reason being the principle of convergence.

'I would certainly not contest the reality of contingency and luck,' Dr. Conway Morris said recently in a telephone interview.

'We're all the product of one very, very lucky sperm.

On the other hand, when you look at the broad structure of the history of life, you can't help but be impressed by the number of organisms that began at different starting points and have come together -- the whale that looks like a fish, an extinct marsupial, a sort of kangaroo, that looked like a saber-toothed cat.

The world is a rich and wonderful place, but it is not one of untrammeled possibilities.'

The relative degree to which the world's fauna and flora have been shaped either by contingency or by the slow hand of natural selection, as expressed most starkly in cases of convergent evolution, remains unclear.

What is clear is that the more scientists look, the more examples of convergence they find. Sometimes the reasons for a particular convergence are easy to parse.

Consider the shared traits of the world's manifold anteaters.

Ants are tiny and must be consumed en masse, said Kent Redford of the Wildlife Conservation Society in the Bronx, who has studied anteating mammals -- hence the need for a long sticky tongue to lap up hundreds at a pop, and for enlarged salivary glands to help keep the tongue gummy and to wash the ants down.

For moving that long tongue in and out rapidly, a muzzle improves the aim. And it is best for the snout to be hairless, to make sure that the pincered ants and termites have nothing to grab onto.

Ants live in soil and sand, which requires powerful claws for digging.

There is need of a digestive system that can readily pass the sand and dirt that will be lapped up with each tongueful of food, and that can metabolize the blistering chemical defenses with which ants and termites are loaded.

Finally, sand grinds down enamel, so teeth can be dispensed with altogether.

'It's a pretty weird bioplan,' Dr. Redford said, 'but it works.' And the ultimate proof is sitting on his desk, in the form of a newly issued Beanie Baby toy with a telltale tubular schnoz.

'Even the Beanie Baby phylogeny now has an anteater in it.'

Other cases of convergence are not so readily explained.

Pamela Groves, a research associate at the University of Alaska's Institute of Arctic Biology in Fairbanks, has compared the musk ox of northern North America with the takin of China.

Both are members of a large ungulate subfamily that includes sheep and goats, and biologists had long assumed that the two species were closely related, for they have several peculiar features in common.

They are both the biggest and most barrel-chested members of the subfamily, and have unusual horns that grow out of the center of the forehead and hook off to the side. They also display an exceptional form of group defense behavior when confronted by a predator. Rather than bounding off in the manner of goats or gazelles, they instead fall with military precision into a circle formation, the adults facing outward, their sharp-tipped horns at a ready, and the young safely sequestered within the center.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 23:56:17 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A useless mental exercise? (2)
Message:
That the takin practice group defense is particularly surprising; the animals live in the dense vegetation of remote mountain regions, and as a rule herbivores in such environments tend to be solitary and rely on forest cover rather than herd life for protection.

Thus, biologists had proposed that the takin and musk ox were descendants of a common ancestor, which arose in Asia under different habitat conditions than exist today and then radiated into North America across the Bering strait about 20,000 tears ago, during the Pleistocene.

But in a recent DNA analysis of the two species, published in the journal of Molecular and Phylogenetic Evolution, Dr. Groves found that the animals are not close kin after all, but in fact diverged from one another nearly 10 million years ago, long, long before the Pleistocene. 'No matter how I analyzed the data, the results always showed the musk ox and takin had other species that were genetically more similar to them than they were to each other,' she said. 'So why all the resemblances? My theory, after pondering it for a while, is that this is another example of convergent evolution.'

How the convergence occurred, though, and what the selective pressures were that resulted in each species having big bodies, the same sort of horn structure and the same circling-the-wagons approach to defense, she cannot say.

Equally piquant are some of the recent discoveries of molecular convergence. Dr. Kenneth H. Roux, a structural biologist at Florida State University in Tallahassee, and his colleagues recently described in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences a baffling similarity between certain antibody proteins in camelids -- the group that includes camels and llamas -- and nurse sharks.

Throughout most of the animal kingdom, the antibodies of the immune system are built of two types of chains, called heavy and light, and each chain has three loops. Together the triple-looped heavy and light chains allow an antibody to attach to a foreign object like a virus and begin the process of destroying the enemy. But in camels and nurse sharks, a subset of antibodies has lost its light chains: All three loops are missing, and only the three loops of the heavy chains remain. The scientists cannot say why the loss occurred in the first place, whether by accident or by unfathomable selective design. In any event, the antibodies of the camels and the nurse sharks responded to the change in cognate ways.

To compensate for their absence of light chains, both animals expanded the size of one of the loops in their heavy chains.

Remarkably, it is the same loop that has been lengthened in both the camel and the nurse shark antibodies.

'It's a case of structural convergence,' Dr. Roux said.

'If this wasn't the only solution to the problem, it was certainly the most efficient.'

The unorthodox antibodies of the sharks and camels may look and act alike, but the genetic subunits that encode the proteins are decidely dissimilar from one another -- that is, they have different amino acid sequences.

Many combinations of amino acids can be strung together to construct proteins that behave in nearly identical ways.

For statistical reasons, though, said Dr. Russell F. Doolittle, a molecular evolutionist at the University of California at San Diego, true sequence convergence -- where two independently evolved proteins not only perform the same task but have the same underlying building blocks -- is likely to be extremely rare.

But odds, like hearts and eggs, are made to be broken, and so scientists recently announced what they think is the first illustration of bona fide sequence convergence. Dr. Chi-Hing C. Cheng of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and her co-workers reported in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences on their analysis of antifreeze proteins found in two groups of fish: the notothenioids of the Antarctic and the Northern cod of the Arctic.

The proteins help keep a fish's blood from freezing while it swims through frigid waters by binding onto a bit of ingested icicle and preventing the ice crystal from growing larger.

A number of polar-dwelling creatures have versions of antifreeze proteins, and the sequences of these proteins are, as a rule, all over the map. But in the case of the cod and the notothenioids, the antifreeze molecules retain their resemblances down to their cores. They consist of the same three amino acids -- threonine, alanine and proline -- repeated over and over.

In a painstaking series of experiments, Dr. Cheng and her colleagues demonstrated that the proteins arrived at their analogous sequences during entirely independent episodes of genetic shuffling. The notothenioid protein arose about 7 million to 15 million years ago, when Antarctic oceans were chilling to freezing, while the cod version probably evolved about 3 million years ago, during the glaciation of the Arctic seas.

The simplicity of the protein sequence, Dr. Cheng said, explains how it was possible for it to have arisen on two separate occasions.

And the cod can be thankful that nature, at least, does not believe in copyrights.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 16:49:22 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Not at all
Message:
I think learning stuff like evolutionary convergence and the latest discoveries in it is far more interesting and real than anything M has to teach. However, I do belief I am in the minority in this case. Most people just don't find science juicy enough to bother with. That's too bad. It's a great defense against charlatans like the Big M.

With an education in the sciences, particularly biology and neuroscience, it's virtually impossible to take anything M has to say about life, seriously. The more you learn, in fact, the more idiotic M begins to sound.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 23:54:26 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Beach Boys and other matters
Message:
Last night I went to see the Beach Boys in concert.A thoroughly good time was had by all.I got just as high and elated as I had at any of M's programs-it just goes to show what the group energy can do.
On a completely different matter, there have been a few postings of late about the early years of DLM--71 to 75.The info about bugging doesnt surprise me.M was only 15 at the time and Raja ji about 16. I see them as just as much victims as everyone else at this time.The shame is that when they became older ,they didnt renounce it all.Krishnamurti was brought up to be a kind of saviour and he managed to renounce it all. Mind you,he became the guru who tells you not to have a guru.Its a bit like that part in Life of Brian where Brian tells the crowd that they dont need a master,and that they are all individuals, and the crowd replys in unison ,' Yes,we are all individuals.'
I received K in 73 and my memories of this time are more positve than later.Itwas all so silly then--being told to ' remember the word brother' by my housemother everytime I spoke words that were not deemed satsang,GMJ badges as big as my fist,wearing undersize suits from Divine Sales etc etc.I guess we were too young to see through it all.There was certainly enough evidence that he wasnt the lord--the ulcer he became very ill with(one of the treating doctors said that he had the body of a 45 year old--too much ice cream,I guess),the failure of millenium,the schism in the family,to name a few pieces.
To me however, the most damaging tme was 77to 82.The focus changed from K to M--to complete and utter dedication and devotion to M .Nothing else mattered. Suddenly it wasnt fun anymore.I lost myself in this period and it took several years to get me back I can understand how some ex's who left in 74 or75 dont have particularly bad memories--the real brainwashing began after this time
One more thing,does anyoneknow about the secret warehouses that stored all the gifts M was given? I did security there once in 79 in Miami .It was huge and full of expensive items.The guy who was doing security with me was so freaked out by it and other things he saw to do with M ,that he split.
regards,chr.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 00:13:46 (EST)
From: srb
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: and other matters
Message:
There was one at DECA.
And then there was at least one (although I heard there
was more than one) in Orlando.

In 82 or 83 they had a tag sale of sorts and sold a big amount
of things. regular household linens, excess belongings
that I didn't get to see because only the money premies
and only those on some inner cirsle list got to buy.

He has gotten a tremendous amount of expensive
things sent him during the era when he was the ultimate ruler
during those days.

They had a full time security team to watch over his stuff
in the complex. Always some guy sitting in the warehouse
all by himself as hjs life ticked by gaurding the lord's
loot.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 00:18:16 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: Beach Boys and other matters
Message:
I think I know you chr. I did service at one of those warehouses- I took out M's guiter and played it- freaked out the other guy there.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 00:45:07 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Beach Boys and other matters
Message:
I only did security there once .The other guy was from Seattle--a bald guy with a moustache-I cant remember his name.We got to know each other quite well doing other services around M.He had been transferred from Seattle because he was a draughtsman and it had been his dream to be close to M. The poor guy got so freaked out by everything he saw around M ,that he left and went back to Seattle and tried to tell all the premies there that M was a fraud.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 12:59:35 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: memories of grovelling
Message:
God, no wonder you have fallen from grace! You disobeyed holy agya! You touched something that belonged to The Master! You could have transmitted some rare disease through your un-holy fingers. How inconsiderate of you! How childish! It will take you lifetimes upon lifetimes in the barnyard grovelling with the other X's in the pig pen for a few extra garbage scraps to atone for your mind-ful act.

I remember this guy I lived with at Protech used to be 'in charge' of this huge room out at Deca that was filled with stuff that belonged to M. How I remember him is that he was in a permanent state of looking like a deer that had been caught in the headlights of an oncoming 18 wheeler. He was trying, like I was, to eradicate his personality through constant mediation on the holy breath. And, like me, he was not succeeding. I wonder if he ever got out, or if he's still grovelling like a beggar for a few scraps of attention from The Master. That's really how I remember those years. I was a groveller. ARGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 17:53:20 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: John
Subject: memories of grovelling
Message:
'Deer caught in the headlights'--yes! yes! That frightened spaced out nobody's home look. I remember premies having that look. I remember looking in the mirror at myslef and seeing that look!AAAEEIIIII!!!!
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 13:40:56 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: Beach Boys and other matters
Message:
To me however, the most damaging tme was 77to 82.The focus changed from K to M--to complete and utter dedication and devotion to M .Nothing else mattered. Suddenly it wasnt fun anymore.I lost myself in this period and it took several years to get me back I can understand how some ex's who left in 74 or 75 dont have particularly bad memories--the real brainwashing began after this time

chr:

I couldn't agree more. This is pretty much exactly the way I see it as well. That was definately the most damaging period, and also the most miserable for me. Unfortunately, I couldn't leave because I was thoroughly programmed by that point not to doubt anything Guru Maharaj Ji did.

I was relatively happy as a premie until about 1977. Then it got really miserable. I had gotten involved because of the practice of knowledge, and the chance to help bring peace to the world. Then when Maharaji did the 'bait and switch' and said that devotion and surrender were really what it was about, everything changed. I just never felt I could be the gopi that I thought so many other premies were, and as Maharaji apparently wanted. He also became progressively heavy, mean-spirited, and, obviously in my opinion, very unhappy and frustrated himself.

The book The Guru Papers has a really good analysis of why this kind of stage of a guru cult leader happens. It wasn't peculiar to Maharaji. Basically, the authors say that after all the initial barage of converts, as in the early 70s, the guru believes he really is going to be the master of the entire world. But then reality sets in. For Maharaji, the Millennium failure, the drying up of converts, the constant money problems, his own drinking problems and other obvious flaws, the dispute with his family, the exodus of premies in 1976, etc. made it clear that he wasn't going to meet his expectations.

So, according to the authors, the guru cult-leader usually then starts demanding more from the remaining devotees to compensate for his failures, which aren't supposed to be happening, because he's god, right?.

So, to compensate, he starts demanding total dedication, he demands really grandiose and ridiculous material things, like a Boeing 707, new residences, etc., because that's what the perfect master deserves, right/ -- again as compensation for his failures. He gets really heavy and bizarre in seeking strict devotion and adulation from his followers. Hence, the heavy devotion satsang, that stupid 'dancing' in the bizarre outfits, more darshan lines, tormenting and torturing the initiators and his staff, etc.

I think, eventually, although I think it took at least a decade, Maharaji did learn to lower his expectations, but I think that was because the alternative was to sink into oblivion and lose almost all of his followers and get no new ones.

So, he introduced 'knowledge lite' to make it all more relatable to new people, while at the same time keeping enough of the cult-trappings from the 70s to try to keep premies from that period involved because they are the source of a large portion of his money. It's a delicate balancing act, and we all know the contradictions that has lead to.

So, now, it's mostly just a conservative operation for him, trying to keep it all going to keep his image of himself intact, keeping the money coming in, while trying to fly below the radar screen of the media. He still mouths the idea of propogating to the entire world, but I think he knows he's finished, at least in the West, especially because, unfortunately for him, ex-premies are now showing up to comment, talk to each other, advertise Maharaji's past and give the other side of the story. That's got to be a problem for him because it prevents a total PR make-over, which is what he would absolutely need if he had any hopes of increasing premie numbers in the West.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 17:57:28 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Beach Boys and other matters
Message:
Great post JW. 'The developmental stages of a guru'--man, I guess all us humans have developmental stages--what would Erikson say?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 18:15:55 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Beach Boys and other matters
Message:
Thanks JW,
The book ' The guru papers' sounds very interesting. The psychological profile you mentioned really fits and explains a lot.I'm very interested ,too, in the psychology of PAMS.Someone else may be able to articulate this better, but my experience was that at some point you become so disorientated and cut off from society in general and from yourself ,that all you have is M. You're owned by him.You dont necessarily think of him as the lord anymore,he just is who he is and the purpose of your lifeis to serve him.None of the reasons you received K for have come to fruition,the experience you thought you'd have around M certainly isn't happening,you've seen and heard things that would have made your hair curl a few years back,you're part of a club that really 'knows whats going on',you laugh at M's anal humour,you get very little sleep,your head is sometimes driving you crazy as the last vestiges of reality try to creep through your armour, and yet you stay,because its become your reason for living and you cant conceive of doing anything else.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 13:59:16 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: Beach Boys and other matters
Message:
I do recall the part of the warehouse at DECA that was used to store stuff that belonged to Maharaji. But I recall something else, but I'm not sure if it was that warehouse or another one.

Anyway, in either 1979 or 1980, when I was community coordinator in Miami, the wristwatch I had, which was an unreparable cheap Timex, broke. I was told by some honchos at OGM (the Office of Guru Maharaj Ji) that they could get me a watch at no charge. I also had dreams, for a minute or two, the I might actually get a watch that the perfect master himself had worn, but then I knew a watch like that would be way too expensive and they wouldn't just give one like that away.

So, I was taken to said 'warehouse' and briefly saw the tremendous amount of expensive stuff that was in there, all carefully packaged and maintained. A really huge amount of stuff. There were, literally, hundreds of watches, all good ones. I was given a nice Seiko. I was also told that Maharaji got boxes and boxes of jewelry, watches, etc., when he did a darshan line and that most of it was thrown away, unless it was really valuable and that, actually it was a real hassle, and that's why the initiators began emphasizing that premies should give CASH. I think I got a watch that would have been discarded if I didn't get it.

Some years later the watch broke and I took it to a Seiko dealer. He said the watch had been made for sale outside the US, and that it was worth about $200. I assume some premie had dropped that watch, perhaps directly from his wrist, into the donations box at the beginning of the darshan line at some program.

I finally threw the watch away in about 1984. I just couldn't stand what it reminded me of -- that mindless dedication to someone so unworthy of it.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 17:49:33 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: The crazy years
Message:
Hmmm--77 to 82--exactly when I was involved. Man, do I have the luck of the Irish or what? Great post, chr
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 17:38:30 (EST)
From: Marv
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: POETRY
Message:
Often things are as bad as they seem. Even so, some of the time it's possible to enjoy life as it is. But the better anything gets the more you'll miss it when it's gone. Revenge is a form of nostalgia. Suicide can be a case of mistaken identity. For a while there's just no way to see what's funny about it. At last you cry out in anguish: 'Why Me?' And God answers: 'Why not?'

There's nothing to figure out. Life is not about anything. The answers keep changing, the questions remain the same. Straightforward words seem paradoxical. We don't have to talk to pass the time. The time will pass in any case. Remember, we are all in this alone. It helps to know that everyone is in the same situation. We insist that our situation is special. It's so hard to accept how ordinary we all are. By now, I'm no longer interested in wheather or not someone really loves me. I'll settle for being treated well. I don't even mind being manipulated, so long as it feels good.
Poetry From: Sheldon Knopp
'An Assortment of Life's Everyday Ironies'
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 22:02:49 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Marv
Subject: More POETRY-sort of
Message:
Monica walked into the residence on her first day of service and was greeted by M. After a tour he asked, 'Would you like to see the Divine Clock?' Monica got suspicious and said, 'I've heard certain things about you M, and don't think that would be a smart idea.' 'Nonsense,' said M, 'It's just a clock.' Monica reluctantly agreed. He led her to an empty office, closed the door, dropped his pants, and pulled it out. In a reproving tone, Monica said, 'That is not the Divine Clock, it's the Divine Cock.' M responded, 'Monica honey, put a face and two hands on it, and it's a clock.'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 02:31:53 (EST)
From: Marv
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: More POETRY-sort of
Message:
Good one dv... I like it. Any more poetry or good jokes out there?
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 20:38:34 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Marv
Subject: More POETRY-sort of
Message:
What does MJ say to any new beautiful slaves who arrive to do serve-us at his palace?

'I haven't come across your face yet!'
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 17:01:30 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Excluding Certain People
Message:
I was thinking about what Gail went through on Sunday. Despite having received an invitation, she was banned from hearing Maharaji's 'live video' event because she posts on the internet that she now questions Maharaji and her involvement as a premie. I think it's safe to assume that any of the rest of us who post here, whose identities are known, would also be refused admission is someone in security recognized us. There are a few points to consider about this:

1. It's pretty clear that this website is having a pretty big impact on the cult organization. We must be a regular topic of conversation. Isn't that nice? Congratulations everyone. Not only is this website monitored officially and unofficially by Maharaji's increasingly paranoid organization, it appears that people who post here are considered as big a threat to Maharaji as those who actually have threatened some kind of harm to him.

2. There has apparently been some kind of decision from Maharaji it's better to suffer the negative publicity for Elan Vital and Maharaji of refusing admission to people who don't completely follow the cult party line, than to expose his programs to anyone who is known to be having doubts. Geez, it's looking MORE like a cult all the time! The fact that this makes his professed 'open door' policy a complete lie, is apparently not enough to sway this decision.

3. Apparently there was some kind of 'security meeting' following the 'live video' event. What was that about? I can just imagine, and I suspect it had a lot to do with the things said on this site!

Maybe the rest of us should show up at some program and see what happens. I certainly had no interest in that glorified 'phone feed' they had on Sunday, especially early in the morning, and besides, they didn't even HAVE a hookup in my area, the third largest metropolitan area in the US, with a population of over 6,000,000, so I guess there aren't enough premies here to bother with.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 17:07:40 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Correction
Message:
Sorry, I just looked it up. It's the FOURTH largest metropolitan area in the US. New York, Los Angeles and Chicago are bigger. But there haven't ever been many premies here, historically, in comparison to other cities. Even in the 70s that was true. Maybe there are too many other cults here in competition.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 21:16:53 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: JW
Subject: Excluding Certain People
Message:
Joe; the fact that they refuse admission to events of people who have critisised Maharaji or Elan Vital makes their paranoid actions even more ridiculous to those critics. Any cult worth its salt would welcome its critics with open arms and 'love bomb' them into submission. The fact that Maharaji and Elan Vital have written off all the old ex-premies does show a distinct lack of wisdom and sincerety.

If Maharaji really believed that his trip was the truth then he would feel obliged and responsible to get back all the ex-premies into his fold. I conclude that Maharaji knows he's just running a scam and he doesn't hope to convince the ex-premies of anything so he's written them off. He knows we have seen through his game and are unlikely to ever follow him again or even take what he says seriously.

When a confidence trickster realises he's been rumbled by someone, he will not try his tricks on that person again but will steer clear of them in case they reveal his fraud to others. Maharaji is acting in exactly the same way to any other confidence trickster: ignore all critisism and claims of fraud and get on with the job of conning the people who are gullable.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 22:09:52 (EST)
From: RT
Email: ommmmmmm
To: Gail, Truth seeker
Subject: A Sat-Song for you.
Message:
Dear Gail, I was stunned into writing this song for you by your 'brothers' on the path of love - especially the guy that owed you $1800. Turning away a woman who thinks! WOW.

Enjoy the truth of your experience, for you KNOW that the Internet is Greater than Guru - for it reveals his lies.
PS:
You can dance to this!

Sacked by a Trained Gang
To be read to:
'Back in the Chain Gang' by the Pretenders.

I brought a Premie, Guru
Dough-Oh-oh-oh oh oh
They rejected my Elan Invite!
From a place in the past I was past out of
- Now I'm back On Line!

Sacked by a Trained Gang
Dough-Oh-
Oh-no-Sacked by a Trained Gang!

Circumstance: within their control
Dough-Oh-oh-oh.
Phone tree, TV and the Dudes of the Whirled
Locked out of the Feed like a Manmoth from hell
Dough-oh oh Oh
Invited, but his lies descended like flies

But I'm Sacked by a Trained Gang
Oh-Ah-Ooh-Aah
Sacked by a Trained Gang

How can it be?...forced thoughts by the Guru
Brings tears to my eyes
when I see what He's done to you.

And I cry as I park here today
'Just Say Know' deep in my heart:
The Net brings Cult's ruin one day
For making friends part.

I ground a picture of you
Dough-oh-oh-oh yo yo
Those were the sappiest daze of my life.
Franchise by a Hindu was Your part
In disguising the lies - an emotional art!

Now I'm Sacked by a Trained Gang..

oh-ah- Sacked by a...Brained 'Sang!

Ahhhh-ommmmmmmmm
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 01:39:02 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: You're such a sweetie, RT
Message:
What a nice surprise! Your songs have been a great inspiration. I was just talking about you and your songs and the 64 windows you engineered at the new holy palace. I figure that each of the 64 windows represents one of his powers. Is that true?

I sang your rendition of 'Holy Fame' and 'I Want My Sanity' for an old ashram premie tonight. He still believes in MJ and K but stopped participating in any way except MJ programs in 1980. He figured that MJ didn't need him anymore since there were others around him with a lot more money. He also noticed that things were getting weird and the flock wasn't growing.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 23:13:37 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Some questions.
Message:
Excellent point. One day at the Res Gate, M gave me a particularly long look as he was driving out. Shortly afterward, Steve Breadon(sp?), while terminating my position, said to me that M said 'I could run as far as I wanted, then, when I was ready, he would start pulling me back.' I guess I was spaced out. Hadn't felt like it at the time, though. Of course, when you're spaced out, or not ready for upper level service, you won't know! I wasn't worthy! I'm not

This, however, created a question:

Steve-if you're listening, I always wanted to ask you, did M direct this specifically at me, or was this from you? Your answer could have affected with how much abandon I could run- I could have had a lot more fun, who knows? It sounded like it was from Him.

So I wonder, if I relate this story to security at a Fat Sat Feed (I actually told myself earlier today that fat comments were beneath me) would there be a special moment where the the guy at the door would grin in blissful surrender and let me in? I wonder if they'd refer me to an initiator?

Questions:

What legal rights do I have if prevented access to a program.
Who determines if I can enter or not, and what is their criteria?
What legal entity are they representing during this function? Is there more than one legal entity involved?

Brian- how secure is this site? May or may not be relevant to me, but someone mentioned using hotmail to prevent a trace. If visitors understood that they could visit and comment here with impunity, NSA not withstanding, they may be more apt to dialog.

I mean, I still may want to go to an occasional program to see some olld buddies, not to mention at least once, gaze upon the master in a new light. Could be an important closure for me ( I wonder if I could get sucked in again? Nah- I'll bring my brain with me!)

So M, in running this scam, gives what explanations to his heavies as to what kind of threat ex-p's are? I wonder what was meant when it was said the LA program was cancelled due to security reasons. Whoops- it's OO7 week on TNT, got carried away.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 00:37:54 (EST)
From: unnamed
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: posting anonomously
Message:
Brian could probably answer this better than me, but...

Post anonomously isn't a matter of the mailer like HotMail (owned by Microsoft and you know they know everything about you if you are on the internet and are running their software - isn't that right Bill?), but it is a matter of your connection to the net itself. I believe that some information is available to this website, but not very much. For example, things like what kind of Browser you are running and probably or maybe your IP Address.

Now, I believe that if your ISP has a Proxy Server and you use that then your IP address cannot be known. However, the IP address of the Proxy Server can be known, I think. So, you are affored some protection.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 01:52:17 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: unnamed
Subject: posting anonomously
Message:
Anyone posting anonymously on this site is secure from Elan Vital knowing who they really are, and many people who post here have been issued invitations to its functions. They are a great source of factual information too!

The nice part about Maharaji steering people toward the WWW is that they end up here - in the company of the truth. They can agree or disagree, but they all get exposed to it. Ultimately, things said here ring true on some level inside themselves. Many people posting here have thrown off Maharaji without falling into the trap of not being able to enjoy and explore whatever lies behind the reality of their own life force. And it doesn't cost 60 bucks!
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 14:20:32 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Some questions.
Message:
Hey dv....
Just wondering if the steve your talking about is steve braband
I knew him well in the 70's..in fact i saved his life....please let me know.... peace..dave
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 22:05:52 (EST)
From: Malibu Mole
Email: None
To: david m
Subject: Some questions.
Message:
yes,it is Steve Braband. He is married to a prominent local psychic, and they own a home in the Malibu Lake district. He is currently in the waste recycling business.He usually shows up at the large programs. Invisible otherwise. His wife however is on public access.
I'm sure Steve has seen it ALL!
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:19:24 (EST)
From: srb
Email: None
To: david m
Subject: Some questions.
Message:
Hi David,
Feel like telling the story?

Whenever, poor steve, prem rawat really put him through it.

He is married to a psysic? that's too bad.
He needs a less loony environment to recover from
his intense programming.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 11:34:32 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: srb
Subject: Some questions.
Message:
Hey srb.....
I was living in atlanta ga in 1973,74steve came from jackson mississippi to live in the premie house we started on 15th street first married premie house... he wasn't married but he moved in anyway...we worked together and did alot of things together...he became very ill, new diet and all that stuff. he had a terrible fever102-103...was very weak, so he took a cold bath to cool down i went in after about 10 min and he was undeer the water i got him out of the tub and pushed on his chest to get the water out. needless to say he's aliuve and well we got into wpc service together he was a black belt in martial arts as time went by i guess he turned out to be guru M body guard..in 1975 he came to visit me in michigan he was driving raja ji black car and was riding with maharaj ji cook i cant rememper her name they stayed with us for a few days then they were off to LA. thats the last time i saw steve he was a great guy to me i dont know what has happened in recent years but he has a good heart.....peace...david
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 16:26:44 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: david m
Subject: Some questions. OT
Message:
Hey David, did you know Don Lynch when you were in Atlanta? He's an old friend (although he is the guy who introduced me to M and K, I still forgive him) with whom I have lost contact. If you knew him or know him, do you have any idea where he is now? You can e-mail me at mgdbach@ziplink.net
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 09:19:42 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Some questions. OT
Message:
Hey mick......
That name doesn't ring a bell...by the time i left we had a premie community of about 300...sorry i cant hel-p...peace david
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 09:21:18 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: david m
Subject: Some questions.
Message:
Probably- I wasn't sure about the spelling. He was highly visible handling personal security for M for many years.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 20:19:02 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Some questions.
Message:
1. How did GM 'know' that you were spacing out?. DId you not have you happy face on that day?

2. What is this pulling back thing all about? DOes he think he has on little golden choke chains?

Helen
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 07:38:48 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Divine choke chains
Message:
I meant to say 'does he think he has US on little choke chains'?
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 00:29:59 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Some questions.
Message:
Like someone here recently said- it's not worth it profit wise for M to reload.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 20:10:31 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Excluding Certain People
Message:
I agree with you Sir D, and I am bummed out there is so much paranoia surrounding Maharaji. Remember how innocent it all seemed back then--now it is a mega paranoid trip. I am a little weirded out that Maharaji's folks prowl around this website taking notes of our names apparently. I would never ever want to go to a program, but still, it bothers me.

You are so right about the paranoia aspect being a total turn-off. I've bad-mouthed the Unitarian church a little here and there, they all know how I feel (I go to a different denomination now), but they don't turn me away at the door if I want to drop in now and then for a music function or to see old friends. They are confident about their religion being right for them and people can come & go as they please. I think confidence is the key, and this paranioid militaristic patrolling of people at the door smacks of a fundamental LACK of peace/confidence.

SOmetimes reading stuff on the forum is overwhelming, like reading about all the warehouses filled with stuff that GM would just throw away. And it was some poor schnook's 'service' to guard all of GM's loot. It's just grotesque, every week on the forum there's some new nightmare about Maharaji to assimilate.

It's like a Chinese box that keeps opening up more and more and more and there's still more to come I know...

How are your parents Sir D? How are you? Thank you for being my father confessor tonight.

Love,
helen
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 10:52:37 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Totally off topic
Message:
Hi Helen:

I've belonged to a Unitarian church for years. I'm curious what turned you off from it.

I have threatened to leave the one I belong to, but I stay simply because I know so many people and...what the hell, I don't really care anyway so much about the beliefs.

Also, currently we have a minister who is really cool. I have very overwhelming experiences at our sunday services, standing with everyone, holding hands, singing songs.

So what church do you attend now?

John
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 11:17:48 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Totally off topic
Message:
Hey John, that's cool that you are a Unitarian. Are you in the DC area by any chance? Are you John Cavad who wrote me the great email?

John, unlike most Unis, I was raised Unitarian in this amazing church called All SOuls Unitarian Church in downtown DC, a predominantly African-American church. Since it was predominantly black, black baptist traditions eeked through in the sermons, there was a gospel choir, and religious vibe to the place. To grow up during the civil rights and anti-war movements in such a church was an unbelievably rich experience that I am immensely grateful to my parents for. I hold many Unitarian values dear, deep to my bones.

As an adult, I started attending a Uni church out here in the burbs of DC. I joined the choir which is led by an incredible director. I have many friends at that church. However, I started to get increasingly turned off at the affluence there, the bickering and nitpicking over minutia, the lack of religiosity. ALso, a lot of Unitarians are defectees from heavy Catholic, Baptist, or Jewish traditions and talking about spirituality/God triggers all their emotional baggage so the minister would acutally be criticized if he mentioned God in his sermons. And it really turned me off when traditional hymns would be re-written with more politically correct words. The final straw for me was when the choir director said that performance was more important to her than ministry.
In a nutshell, I wanted a more religious church where people were more on the same page, more cooperative with the minister, less prone to gripe over every little detail, more focussed on God, and more active with the poor of the community. I found a church that is a hybrid of United Church of Christ/presbyterianism= Congregationalist. I love it, love the minister, etc. But I am still a Unitarian deep down inside, no fooling, and if I could find a more religious Uni church, I'd go.

And I haven't joined that new church yet--I'm wresting with my faith a little these days. It doesn't matter though--I still prefer the new church to the all-white, all affluent Unitarian church I used to go to.

Hope that answers your questions--would love to hear more about your UU experiences.

Helen
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 11:36:53 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Totally off topic ( Addendum)
Message:
One more thing I want to add--the church I go to is NOT a fundamentalist church at all--they are very clear about that. People are accepted where they are at, and the focus is very humanistic.. Actually the minister at my new church works closely with a lot of Unitarians in the area on social justice issues--the churches are very similar.

It was a revelation to me to discover that not all Christian churches are fundamentalist. When I was church-shopping after I left the Unitarian CHurch, I went to a Unity Church briefly which really turned me off--more premie-like, 'everything's wonderful, it's-all-part-of-God's-perfect-plan, you can make it happen just by focussing on it', new agey stuff. But interestingly, one of my dearest freinds attends a Unity Church on capitol hill which she loves. Churches really vary within denominations I think.
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 13:07:17 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Totally off topic
Message:
Helen:
Hey, I sing in the choir too. In fact, that's probably why I stay in the church. UU's can be very strange for all the reasons you mentioned. The thing that bothers me most about the general UU mind set is clinging to the philosophy of 'I'm ok, you're ok' or
'Whatever you do, if you feel it's right, is ok' or the idea that 'we are all special and wonderful'.
ARGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! That drives me crazy!

It's sort of like the belief, if you're doing satsang service and meditation you can't go wrong, or if you're remembering holy name whatever comes out is perfect. Or if you believe in Jesus, you're saved, etc.

Even though we may all be special and wonderful, at times all of us are ass holes, and all of us do idiotic things at times and we deserve to have those idiotic things pointed out to us.
IMHO.

If you were a premie in D.C., you might know me since I was there from '77 - '80. I live in N.C. now. My last name is Kreilkamp, but please don't tell anyone, it's a secret. :)
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:16:43 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: If it wasn't for sex...
Message:
.... we'd live for ever. Or so says Professor William R. Clark in his book 'Sex & The Origins Of Death'. Aparrently, living organisms (our single celled bacterial ancestors) had the potential for living forever as long as they were asexual, reproducing by fission. Then cells began having sex, exchanging DNA with one another, thereby introducing death because the main focus of the cell became maintainence of the DNA code that would be used for progeny. The rest of the cell would self destruct.

As organisms became multicellular (such as us) some cells became more specialized in performing functions other than reproduction; breathing, digestion, thinking, etc. These cells (somatic cells) would, in time, unravel and die because they served no purpose in reproduction. This is why WE die. Only those cells involved in the process of reproduction, of passing on the organism's DNA to future generations, have potential for everlasting life. All other cells grow old and die. Here's an interesting passage from the book:

From a human point of view, it is our somatic selves - embedded in which are things like mind, personality, love, will - that we cherish most and that define us, to ourselves and to others. We think of reproduction as only one of many activities we can choose to engage in. Perhaps this is not surprising, since it is a point of view arising in the somatic part of ourselves - in our minds. We have used our minds to invent complex belief systems to explain death. None of these paint a picture of ourselves as excess baggage; none cast us simply as tools for transmitting DNA. Yet when we trace the origin of our death beyond mind and belief, to its true beginnings - the death of individual cells - we come to a rather harsh and unflattering conclusion; the irrelevance, in the grander scheme of the universe, of our somatic selves. No wonder belief so often triumphs over reason

So much for the 'gift' of life.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:24:29 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: If it wasn't for sex...
Message:
Jerry: See? M was right, all along, about not having sex! No sex, LIVE FOREVER! Wait a minute.... without sex, who the heck WANTS to live forever????? Catch-22.... he he he.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 22:27:49 (EST)
From: peter
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Don't believe everything...
Message:
that some professor says. A lot of them are completely nuts.

Personally I think we die because we wear out. The oldest living things (by a long long ways) are all plants--less moving parts. I don't think that eternal life was ever a possibility for any living thing. No garden of Eden.

I do think that sex may have something to do with life expectancy. Why do some animals live longer than others? Not necessarily because the short-lived ones wear out faster (although small animals do have higher metabolic rates and pack a lot more heartbeats into a year than we do). Sex produces new combinations of characteristics and that is one way that species adapt to changes in the environment--the individuals with combinations that work well in the new environment survive & reproduce. Well, what if you have two kinds of birds that eat the same foods in the same habitat, one that lives forty years and one that lives four? If the environment is changing rapidly, the one that lives only four years will be able to adapt to the changes better and will out-compete the one that lives forty, causing that one to starve to death. It can go in the other direction and favor the one that lives longer, too. Especially if individuals can adapt their behavior to a changing environment, as humans can. I think this is one reason why we live so long.

So don't use Clark's idea as a reason to give your sex parts complete priority over your non-sex parts (did Bill Clinton read this book?). Your sex parts NEED the rest of you.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 09:40:22 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: peter
Subject: Personally
Message:
Personally? You want to tell me what you personally think? How's about telling me what you've LEARNED from years of STUDY as William R. Clark, Professor of Immunology and Chair, Emiritus, of the Department of Molecular, Cell, and Developmental Biology at UCLA has?

And you're wrong about plants being the first life forms on earth. Prokaryotes and eukaryotes were here a billion years before them? What are they, you ask? Well, peter, why don't you tell me what you PERSONALLY think they are?
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 10:47:48 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Taxonomy (ot)
Message:
Hi Jerry -
Taxonomically, all organisms are classified as members of either the plant and animal kingdoms. You're right in that this is an inadequate classification, as some organisms don't really fit into either classification. But (as far as I know - I took botany a while ago), no one has come up with a better system yet, or if they have, it hasn't been universally accepted. So procaryotes - which are more ancient than eucaryotes - are taxonomically classified as plants.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 13:01:50 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Things have changed
Message:
Originally, all living organisms were classified in one of two kingdoms, plant or animal. Now there are 5 kingdoms; monera, protista, fungi, plantae, and animalia.

Prokaryotes are members of the monera kingdom. They date back 3.5 billion years and are single celled organisms without a nucleus. Algae is a part of this kingdom and although it can perform photosynthesis it is not considered part of the plant kingdom.

I think people are confused by the connection between sex and death. It doesn't mean that if you abstain from sex you'll live forever.

The very first life forms were single celled organisms that had no nucleus. When they reproduced they just split in two, giving each half an identical copy of it's DNA. Biologists, when observing this process in a culture dish have found that, provided the proper environment and nutrients, this could go on, literally, forever.

When cells developed nuclei, death entered the picture because only that aspect of the cell that served a purpose in reproduction remained intact. The rest of the cell died. This had never happenned before. When cells started combining and evolving into complex organisms (like us) death became even more prevalent because a lot of our cells have nothing to do, whatsoever, with reproduction, such as brain cells, blood cells, liver cells, etc. They have nothing to do with passing on genes to the next generation. In time, these cells stop dividing, unravel and die. We die with them. But the cells that play a part in reproduction ('germ' cells they're called) can multiply into infinity, so long as their host, the human body in this example, provides a home for them.

The reason why I'm sharing all this is because you don't learn this kind of stuff from gurus and perfect masters. You just 'learn' that life is a precious 'gift' but you remain in ignorance of what life really is. It's a product of evolution. As such, M's claim that life is a gift we should be grateful for is rooted in his own ignorance which he would like to share with us so he can capitalize on it.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 13:10:15 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Thanks, Jerry (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 13:34:03 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: And Jerry...
Message:
...please have pity on those of us who learned this stuff a while ago (15 years for me). I work in an applied branch of science and it's hard enough for me to keep up with my own field, let alone taxonomy. At least I know what you are talking about - hope that counts for something!
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 14:32:42 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Everybody forgets
Message:
I know how you feel, Katie. If people ask me about this stuff a month from now, I'll have to look it up to remember it. But like you say, once you've learned it, it comes back to you when you hear it again. Above, Jim submitted a post about evolutionary convergence, a subject which I recently learned about in Dawkin's 'Blind Watchmaker'. It all came back to me while I was reading it. I find this stuff fascinating, a true learning experience. When I was in the cult, I would shun such an education, thinking it was useless, nothing to do with the purpose of my life. That's what I learned from Maharaji. I can see why he wouldn't want people learning this stuff. It raises questions that challenge his credibility.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 22:24:42 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I'm impressed
Message:
Jerry,

I'm impressed reading your comments on science much like I'm impressed with my girlfriend, Laurie's, explanations. Like you, she's really picking up on this stuff. Me? I'm just a surface kind of guy. But you guys that really delve into stuff are eminently commendable. Thanks.

(By the way, are you ready for more 'crucial' Maturana et al.? -- sorry, Ham. You can put away your shooter. I was just kidding. [And here's the official kidding emoticom to prove it: :) See?]
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 13:40:25 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maharaji isn't
Message:
Thanks, Jim. You're largely responsble for my new found interest in science, you and Nigel. But I have to tell you, on judgement day, when the Big M questions me about all this useless info that questions his divinity, I'm pointing a finger in YOUR direction. 'He made me do it,' I'm going to say, and you can stand there grinning, shrugging your shoulders, saying, 'Hey, I was only kidding', all you want but I don't know. What kind of fool do you think our lord is?

As far as Maturana goes, only Ham seems to be able to understand this guy. However, if you want, I can send you my copy of 'Tree of Knowledge' if you want to check it out.

Happy New Breath!
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 18:02:23 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Things have changed
Message:
Jerry:

I think it is still an open question as to whether life is a product of evolution. (Apart from the fact that we're not exactly sure what 'it' is.) Some people believe that life is a product of evolution, but generally those people have a need to believe that. The evidence they consider tends to support that belief. Others need to believe otherwise, and although they don't have much evidence there is no real proof that they are wrong. The debate is not really over which objective reality is 'true' but over which value system is more appropriate. Which one works better, and under what conditions? (It doesn't appear that science can help much when it comes to the veto power of terrorism, for instance.) We've got a long way to go. All positions will probably look pretty dumb in 300 years.

As for me, my strategy has been to stay young by not reproducing. It seems to work. On the other hand, my genes aren't going anywhere. Interesting tradeoff. Most evolution now is social, rather than genetic, so maybe my ideas are more important than my genes.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:46:52 (EST)
From: peter
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: ouch! ouch! get a grip!
Message:
Hey Jerry, I didn't realize that your post was the last word and that you didn't want any discussion. Too bad. You're going to get it anyway.

You said:
And you're wrong about plants being the first life forms on earth.
Sorry, I never said that they were the first life forms on earth. I said that they are the oldest living things (by a long long ways). That's true. Coastal redwoods, for example, typically live for 700 to 2000 years before they die. When they do die, it's typically from falling over due to insect feeding/rot/etc., not from all their cells just deciding to die. Bristlecone pines live even longer, I think very often more than 2000 years. They are the closest living things to being immortal, which I thought was relevant since your post was about why things die.

You also said that prokaryotes ARE immortal because they can divide forever in culture under proper conditions (such as removing most of them to relieve the overcrowding). I don't think that's immortality. Once an individual cell divides, that individual ceases to exist and the two new cells are its offspring, the NEXT GENERATION. Humans can theoretically keep producing the next generation forever, too, as long as we have the proper conditions (such as removing most of us to relieve over crowding) and don't wipe out our own selves.

As for William R. Clark, a.k.a. GOD, if you think that all the people with his credentials agree on this stuff, you're way off base. That doesn't mean it's not worth reading what he says, I'm sure that he's learned a lot in his career and probably has some ideas worth thinking about. Nobody's ever 100% right in science, it's a very gradual crawl toward the truth. As James Watson, one of the people who discovered that DNA is the genetic material, said in the introduction to one of the updated editions of his book Molecular Biology of the Gene, 'all untrue facts from the previous edition have been deleted.'

So great, keep on reading these books, there's a lot of truth and a very good process there. But I didn't appreciate the hostility. If I offended you (apparently I did) with my remark about professors not always being right, I'm sorry. It was meant to be flip.

Peter
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 10:47:12 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: peter
Subject: Peter, please
Message:
Peter, you came out swinging with your insinuation that a professor respected in his field might be a nut. What do you know about Professor Clark to make such an insinuation? You then went on to tell me your personal feelings on why we die, because 'we wear out'. Then you went on a completely different tangent about plants being the oldest living life forms on earth, something that had no bearing on my post whatsoever, the origins of death at the cellular level. You never even touched upon this subject and its relevance to death as it pertains to multicellular organisms. Then you rocketed over to natural selection, again with no relevance to the original topic. Your post, overall, struck me as being somewhat hairbrained.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 21:10:47 (EST)
From: Peter
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: biology brawl continued
Message:
Then you went on a completely different tangent about plants being the oldest living life forms on earth, something that had no bearing on my post whatsoever, the origins of death at the cellular level.
I was DISAGREEING with you that death originates primarily at the cellular level. That has some bearing. Animals that die of 'old age' die mainly from organ failure--moving parts. Plants, because they are much less dependent on individual organs, can live much longer. Their cells seem to do fine for, sometimes, thousands of years. Hmmmm. Why can't YOUR cells do that?

Then you rocketed over to natural selection, again with no relevance to the original topic.
1. I guarantee you that Clark's book is completely and 100% about natural selection.
2. The ideas that I brought up about natural selection & death are more mainstream (among biologists) about the 'why' of death than are Clark's.

Your post, overall, struck me as being somewhat hairbrained.
You're too kind.
Big smooches from
Peter
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 09:47:16 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Peter
Subject: biology brawl continued
Message:
Peter, I feel like we're beginning to beat a dead horse, here, but I'm game if you are.

I was DISAGREEING with you that death originates primarily at the cellular level.

The name of the book is 'Sex And The Origins Of Death'. It's about how death, programmed death, where the cell self destructs, originated. We're not talking about accidental death, death that occurs due to an unsuitable environment, lack of nutrients, or physical violence. We're talking about how programmed death originated about a billion and a half years ago with the advent of sex. This happenned on a single cell level. There were no multicellular life forms (like trees) back then.

I guarantee you that Clark's book is completely and 100% about natural selection.

Have you read the book? How would you know?

The ideas that I brought up about natural selection & death are more mainstream (among biologists) about the 'why' of death than are Clark's.

How would you know? You've yet to say anytihing that suggests you are even remotely aware of what Clark is talking about.

Hugs and kisses,
Jerry

Oh, and Happy New Breath!
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 11:38:08 (EST)
From: peter
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: biology brawl continued
Message:
Let me try to summarize what you've said and why I disagree with it.

1. Organisms that are reproducing asexually are 'immortal'.
I disagreed above and said that asexual reproduction is just like sexual reproduction, it produces a new generation. You never answered that.

2. Sex ruined this immortality.
I think that I'm correct in saying that all species, including all Monarae, have sex. So what you're saying is that organisms like these were immortal before sex was invented, but they aren't any more. NOT!

3. Sex somehow (you haven't explained how or why) caused cells to become programmed to die. And this programmed cell death is what causes the death of all sexual organisms.
In my post above, I said that most animals that die of old age (i.e. NOT from unsuitable environment, lack of nutrients, or physical violence) die from organ failure. You never answered that. Unless the organs fail due to 'programmed cell death', it would pretty much put Clark's ideas in the tank, wouldn't it? Well, let's see, two of my grandparents died of heart attacks, one from stroke, and one I'm not sure, plus my father would have died of a heart attack without surgical intervention. The case that I'm most familiar with, my father, certainly many heart cells died; but they died due to lack of oxygen because of arterial blockage, NOT because of programmed cell death. Arterial blockage was also the most likely cause of both heart attacks and the stroke among my grandparents. No cell death there. Other than those two, the other big old-age killer of people is cancer. No programmed cell death there, just the opposite, cells that are living way too well mess up the other quiet, orderly cells that are just trying to do their job and eventually cause the failure of one or more organs.

In short, you haven't presented any evidence that:
*programmed cell death actually occurs
*that sex is causally related to programmed cell death
*most important, WHY sex would cause programmed cell death

The only sense that I can make out of Clark's ideas as you've presented them is that:
1) When single-celled organisms (including eukaryotes) reproduce asexually, the whole organism is involved, so even though the organism no longer exists, it didn't 'die' because its whole body went into its offspring. (This isn't true for animals that reproduce asexually--they die anyway. Explain that.)
2) Organisms that reproduce sexually have specialized cells that do the reproducing, leaving the rest of the organism with two options--live forever (which the single-celled organisms never did) or die (which the single-celled organisms never did either, except due to environment/accident).

A big love bomb to you,
Peter
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 15:42:44 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: peter
Subject: biology brawl continued
Message:
Peter, I'm going to have to get back to you, either later tonight (EST), or tomorrow. I want to review some of Clark's ideas so I'm clearer in my understanding where, hopefully, I'll be able to translate them more clearly to you. Apparently, I haven't done that thus far. We're really on different wavelengths, here. I'm sure if I made Clark's points clear to you, you wouldn't argue so much with them. I'll get back to you.

Like my sister likes to say, 'Ciao for now'.
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 02:33:28 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: peter
Subject: biology brawl continued
Message:
1. Organisms that are reproducing asexually are 'immortal'.
I disagreed above and said that asexual reproduction is just like sexual reproduction, it produces a new generation. You never answered that.


Prokaryotes that reproduce asexually are potentially immortal. Eukaryotes that produce asexually are very definitely mortal. On this point I admit a misunderstanding of Professor Clark. Death, as I claimed, did not originate as a result of that part of the cell not necessary for reproduction self destructing. It originated because eukaryotes, unless they have sex, in time will stop reproducing. This is not the case with prokaryotes. They can produce asexually, by fission, into infinity provided their environment allows for it.

2. Sex ruined this immortality.
I think that I'm correct in saying that all species, including all Monarae, have sex. So what you're saying is that organisms like these were immortal before sex was invented, but they aren't any more. NOT!


Sex did not ruin this immortality. I misled you there. I'm sorry. Sex, for eukaryotes, actually preserved the potential for immortality. All monerans do not have sex. The ones I know about, and Clark talks about in his book, reproduce asexually through fission.

3. Sex somehow (you haven't explained how or why) caused cells to become programmed to die. And this programmed cell death is what causes the death of all sexual organisms.

As I corrected myself earlier in this post, sex didn't cause cells to become programmed to die. Programmed death is the inevitable fate of eukaryotes unless they have sex with other eukaryotes. Then their internal clocks for self destruction are reset and they live to screw for another day. This is true only for cells that are part of reproduction. Other cells, such as brain cells, liver cells, skin cells, do not have sex with one another and as such are on an unavoidable collision with self destruction. There are a number of theories why this is so. One is that when a cell stops dividing, it's molecular structure breaks down. Another is that self destruction is part of the cells genetic code.

Unless the organs fail due to 'programmed cell death', it would pretty much put Clark's ideas in the tank, wouldn't it?

This is exactly how organs fail in death by 'natural causes'. Sooner or later, due to cell loss critical organs such as the kidneys, lungs, liver are going to fail. After all, our organs are made of cells. If those cells die, how is the organ going to continue functioning without them? Once one of these critical organs have failed, the heart will stop beating. Deprived of nutrients and oxygen from the blood as a result, the rest of the body's cells will die a violent necrotic death in a matter of minutes.

Heart attacks and cancer are frequent causes of death. However, even without them we will all die. Programmed cell death will see to that.

1) When single-celled organisms (including eukaryotes) reproduce asexually, the whole organism is involved, so even though the organism no longer exists, it didn't 'die' because its whole body went into its offspring. (This isn't true for animals that reproduce asexually--they die anyway. Explain that.)

I'm not even considering animals that reproduce asexually. The book doesn't even touch on that subject. The only asexual reproduction discussed in 'Sex And The Origins Of Sex' is by fission; where there was one, now there are two. But, in fission, where's the corpse? There isn't one. Can there be death without a corpse?

2) Organisms that reproduce sexually have specialized cells that do the reproducing, leaving the rest of the organism with two options--live forever (which the single-celled organisms never did) or die (which the single-celled organisms never did either, except due to environment/accident).

The specialized cells involved in reproduction (of the entire organism) are called 'germ' cells. The DNA in these cells have high levels of DNA repair enzymes. What these germ cells do exactly in reproduction, Clark doesn't say. Maybe they produce sperm and eggs, I don't know. I can only guess that's what they do. The rest of the organism, brains, lungs, heart, legs, nose, etc. are made up of 'somatic' cells, whose only concern is for the well being of themselves. They are eukaryotes that reproduce asexually by fission. Remember, eukaryotes that do not have sex with other eukaryotes can only divide so many times before they curl up and die. Because of this, sooner or later, the organ they comprise is going to fail. If it's a critical organ, the heart will stop shortly after and the whole body will die.

Do me a favor, Peter. In the future, challenge me in little chunks, OK? I'm a student of this stuff, not an expert. Thanks.
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 13:54:07 (EST)
From: peter
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: a little chunk for you
Message:
In the future, challenge me in little chunks, OK?
OK. I'll try.

Death...originated because eukaryotes, unless they have sex, in time will stop reproducing.

I didn't know that. I'm curious how Clark knows it. Did he say? Many fungi, algae, and protists can reproduce asexually by fission, budding, or spore formation and I guess I always thought that they could do that indefinitely. They can do it at least long enough to make beer for us. It's not easy to think of how you could do an experiment on even one species where you could prevent them from having sex but allow them to reproduce asexually in order to prove Clark's statement. And then you'd have to do it on many different species in all three kingdoms before you could really claim that eukaryotes can't keep reproducing without sex. There's also parasexuality in some fungi--does that count? Also hard to prevent in an experiment. In fact, there are tens of thousands of species of fungi for which no sexual reproduction has been observed and only asexual reproduction is known.

I guess I also thought that animals that can reproduce asexually through parthenogenesis could do it indefinitely.

This turned out to be a bigger chunk than I thought it would be. Sorry.
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 16:31:42 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: peter
Subject: What's important here
Message:
Peter, please keep in mind that the main issue here is science and how that challenges Maharaji's claims that life is a gift from God which he has mastered. I've got no other reason for raising scientific issues.

The main point I want to make is Clark's point that nature cares only about reproduction, that the DNA of an organism makes it safely to its offspring. Any aspect of an organism which isn't of the utmost importance to this end, nature takes no great strides to ensure the survival of. That includes our brains and our hearts, the supposed centers of our souls where we 'communicate' with God. Nature cares a lot more about our ability to reproduce than it does our ability to communicate with God. In fact, I don't think nature cares about God at all. That said, let the debate continue. I'm going to win, you know.

You'll agree, I hope, that the very first life forms on earth were all prokaryotes. They were the ONLY life forms on earth for about 2 billion years. They reproduced, asexually, through fission. They could do this indefinitely so long as their environment allowed it. Life then evolved into eukaryotes, cells with nuclei. They could only reproduce (by fission, asexually)a limited amount of times, and then they would die, unlike their prokaryote forefathers who could go on indefinitely. This was the advent of death, outside of 'accidental' death, on the planet. Eukaryotes, at least the ones Clark talks about, are somehow programmed to die where there prokaryote forefathers weren't. But sex saves the eukaryote.

Scientists know this from observing paramecium in culture. Those that don't have sex only divide about 200 times, then curl up and die. Those that do have sex have their senescent clocks reset and they live to screw for another day.

Many fungi, algae, and protists can reproduce asexually by fission, budding, or spore formation and I guess I always thought that they could do that indefinitely.

According to Clark, they can't, not if they're eukaryote. The actual reproduction might take place by fission, but unless they have sex with each other, the amount of times they can reproduce is limited. He goes into detail on how this is done, micronuclei, meiosis, etc. It gets pretty lengthy.

It's not easy to think of how you could do an experiment on even one species where you could prevent them from having sex but allow them to reproduce asexually in order to prove Clark's statement.

According to Clark, this was accomplished with paramecium.

And then you'd have to do it on many different species in all three kingdoms before you could really claim that eukaryotes can't keep reproducing without sex.

Maybe that's so. I don't know.

There's also parasexuality in some fungi--does that count?

Don't know anything about it, Peter. Clark doesn't go into it.

I guess I also thought that animals that can reproduce asexually through parthenogenesis could do it indefinitely.

Again, Clark doesn't go into it, so I don't know.

This turned out to be a bigger chunk than I thought it would be. Sorry.

Ahh, but inquiring minds want to know. That's cool. I didn't feel as swamped by this post as I did in your previous one. Thanks.

Again, let me emphasize. If I post something something scientific it's because it challenges M's claims about our existence and it's purpose. I'd say Clark has done that. According to him, our purpose is for reproduction, not enlightenment. I think he gives a pretty convincing argument that this is the case.
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 18:23:03 (EST)
From: peter
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: ...is the process
Message:
nature cares only about reproduction
Well, here we're on some common ground. That is a concise summary of evolutionary theory, which is based on A LOT of observations and an open scientific process, and is pretty much all science has to contribute to the topic of how we got here. And I believe that it's true. However, I can't see that it proves much about god--not even that Maharaji isn't god.

Peter, please keep in mind that the main issue here is science and how that challenges Maharaji's claims that life is a gift from God which he has mastered.
I don't see that scientific knowledge really challenges Maharaji's claims very much. But the scientific process challenges the hell out of them. In science, when someone makes a claim, everyone says, 'How do you know that? Is it consistent with all the other things we know? Does it make sense? Can you prove it? Can another person prove it too?' Admittedly, there aren't any religions which can really make it through this process intact, religion by definition requires faith. But Maharaji looks MUCH worse when subjected to this process than many other religions because so many of his claims are inconsistent with what we can actually observe about him and about the world.

I don't see that it's a great stride forward to reject Maharaji and then accept what some scientist says as the stone truth. He may be right, but it deserves a little scrutiny and thought and reserved judgement.

As far as Clark and sex and inevitable death of eukaryotes, the scientific process leads me to say that:
1) I don't believe that it's true for paramecium until I see how it was done.
2) I don't believe that it's true for all eukaryotes just because it's true for paramecium. I mean, I'm not going to hold out until every last asexually-reproducing eukaryote is tested. If they try ten, evenly spread between the three relevant kingdoms, and it's true for all ten...well, then I'll pretty much believe it's true for all eukaryotes.
3)You dodged the part about the roughly 20,000 known species of fungi which are only known to reproduce asexually. I'm sure some have sex and it just hasn't been discovered yet (they're very shy), but it seems pretty likely that SOME of them have been reproducing only asexually for lo, these millions of years.

Thanks for a good discussion.
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Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 01:27:10 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: peter
Subject: The end. (I hope)
Message:
Peter,

Scientific knowledge doesn't prove there isn't a God or that Maharaji isn't God or that you or I aren't God, either. It does challenge the existence of God. It always has.

I don't see that it's a great stride forward to reject Maharaji and then accept what some scientist says as the stone truth. He may be right, but it deserves a little scrutiny and thought and reserved judgement.

This is an insult. I don't accept what Clark says as 'the stone truth'. I respect him as an educated man who speaks in a convincing manner. I find what he says in 'Sex And The Origins Of Death' to be fascinating, educational, and reasonable. Who should I accept, Peter? I'm not a scientist, myself. I'm a layperson intersted in the sciences. Clark isn't the only scientist who's ideas I've studied. I've also read Dawkins, Dennett, Pinker, Maturana, Davies and others. Some I've enjoyed more than others. A couple I've given up on because I couldn't understand them. But I've never accepted any of them without applying 'a little scrutiny and thought and reserved judgement'. I'm insulted by your suggestion that I have.

I don't believe that it's true for paramecium until I see how it was done.

Fine. I see no reason for Clark to lie about it.

You dodged the part about the roughly 20,000 known species of fungi which are only known to reproduce asexually. I'm sure some have sex and it just hasn't been discovered yet (they're very shy), but it seems pretty likely that SOME of them have been reproducing only asexually for lo, these millions of years.

When did you ask me about 20,000 known species of fungi which are only known to reproduce asexually? Why are you sure some have sex and it just hasn't been discovered yet? Aren't you the same guy who won't believe that paramecium can be kept from screwing unless you see it with your own eyes? This sounds like a double standard to me, Peter.

Any questions you asked me that I didn't have an answer to, I admitted as such. If you want to know something I don't know, I suggest you look it up yourself. I'm not a research assistant.

Thanks for a good discussion.

Outside of a few insulting remarks, it was OK.
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Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 12:49:50 (EST)
From: peter
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: brief apology
Message:
Sorry you felt insulted, I know I was a little 'in your face' about the scientist-as-guru thing.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 11:20:45 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: More Special Moments
Message:
This one from Fall, 1978 as reported in the Divine Times by Sheldon Jaffe:

'The mala is a simple thing: a vest-like garland made of red roses and flowers called 'white pikakes' and 'gold bachelor buttons'. But when it is worn by Guru Maharja Ji, it quickly goes beyond the Divine.

Maharaj Ji had worn the mala when younger, in India. But no one in the West ever thought, ever hoped, ever wished, to see him manifest so beautifully, so openly, so lovingly to his premies.

And yet he wore the mala on the last night of the Philadelphia fetival. Behind the satge he paused, just briefly, before presenting himself to the stunned audience.

'Oh my God,' shouted one premie into the international phone hook-up. 'Oj my God! He doesn't have ashirt on!' (In Denver two premies listening to this passed out and disconnected the line. 'Oh my God ...')

On the floor fo the convention center the premies screamed, and screamed, and screamed with ecstasy -- 'Bhole Shri Satgurudev Maharja Ji Jai! BHOLE SHRI SATGURUDEV MAHARAJ KI JAI!!' -- as the Perfect Master sat there, his hands out in front of him, glancing occasionally over his shoulder as if to see what all the excitement was about. It is said that the only thing that surprises the Lord is love and Guru Maharja Ji looked surprised.

'I personally think it's cuckoo,' he began, when the noise died down. 'but that doesn't make much of a difference. Dear premies .... blah blah blah'

Another choice moment from earlier that evening was when Maharaji said:

'Listen. If by any reason you are sick and tired of the programs, imagine how sick and tired Guru Maharaj Ji must be getting of you'

Funny, huh?
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:26:13 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'I personally think it's cucko
Message:
Now that is the most insightful thing I have ever heard him say...

as I have said ad nauseum here...that night was an epiphany for me when the whole thing began to unravel. Seeing him in that costume and the response he got made me KNOW this thing was craziness. The premies were dropping like flies in throes(sp?) of ecstacy. It was like a revival meeting or a televangleist on TV.....I have said before the premie next to me said she had an orgasm. I was like 'oughta here'.......I am so glad he did not follow his better judgement and wore the thing....it I am sure hastened my departure from cult think. It was really a little slower than that..but this was the moment I started really thinking he was a fake.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 23:36:01 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: Such a frenzy, I HAD to take
Message:
it!
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 00:39:15 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: 'I personally think it's cucko
Message:
Yeah, what happened to the image of MJ with his big crown? I thought that was very effective.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 15:30:50 (EST)
From: seymour
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: God! He doesn't have a shirt
Message:
on! ' (In Denver two premies listening to this passed out and disconnected the line. 'Oh my God ...( they killed Kenny!')

On the floor fo the convention center the premies screamed, and screamed, and screamed with ecstasy -

Is this for real Jim?
I remember being at Orlando when he stripped off and quite a few premies going into ecstasy, but I never heard it reported like this.
Has he EVER said anything about this phase of his divine reign?
How can it be ignored by the premies of today who say he is just a teacher of a cool meditation technique to help us stressed out plebs to relax?

Mind you by the sound of the reports from India etc. and the great world wide satellite link things have only changed on the surface - he might not wear the Krishna Crown and mala, but he is still secretly regarded as the saviour of mankind by most of the premies, and probably himeslf

Cheers
Seymour
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 16:05:21 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: More Special Moments
Message:
You know, Sheldon Jaffe writing that is just kind of weird. I had an office near Sheldon's in Miami in about 1979-1980. Sheldon was one of the most cynical premies I knew and that gushing stuff just seems so out of character. I believe premies wrote stuff like that because they were supposed to. Because they got positive feedback for doing so.

I remember that Philadelphia program. It WAS kind of shocking and he DID look absolutely ridiculous in that outfit. That's partly what was so shocking. He looked even more like a greasy fat guy, except you were forced to see the rolls of flab and flabby pectorals publicly displayed. You couldn't avoid it, or fantasize something more attractive anymore.

Since he was believed to be god incarnate, ultimately attractive, and the object of worship, all premie minds in the hall had to quickly process that information and get with the proper understanding of what was happening. It wasn't the spectacle that was overwhelming, it was trying to process it and cope with it and keep Guru Maharaji on the same pedestal he had been on that blew circuits.

Of course, that program began the 'fat, naked dancing period' (as g's mom coined the term) that went on for several years. At Hans Jayanti a few months later, the naked dancing began in earnest and then went on until at least about 1982. What WAS that about? I guess he still dances sometimes, but I think he keeps his clothes on these days.

I also remember at that Philadelphia program that Durga Ji (aka Marolyn) gave some of the most syrupy, sickening, disturbing 'satsang' I had ever heard.

Big M was leaving for Europe from Philadelphia and I remember feeling secretly relieved that I would not be on the same continent with him, at least for awhile.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 19:38:36 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Sheldon Jaffe speaks today
Message:
Happy new breath, Joe. Here's your old friend today:

'It was different

A report by Sheldon H Jaffe

There were 121 of us gathered in the local hall where we usually have fifty chairs. We had emptied out two adjoining rooms and put in TVs and rented chairs, and it's a good thing too.

Seattle is in the same time zone as Pasadena, but it's a lot darker, wetter, and colder. But no one seems to mind. We watch the count-down awaiting the historic moment.

We listen to the reports from around the world. It's warm and sunny in some places, but it is a sure thing that, at least for us, it is as warm and wonderful and beautiful in Seattle as it is anywhere in the world right now because Maharaji is coming to us live.

How can it be that watching Maharaji on the same screen in the same hall where I see videos all the time is somehow different, but it is. It is like no screening I've been to before. Thank you Maharaji.'
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 23:02:15 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: More Special Moments
Message:
I remember the Philadelphia program well.I didnt enjoy it at all-I rationalised that M's bizarre actions had completely fused my mind and confronted all my dearly held concepts. How grateful I was for my discomfort and disorientation!
I remember M giving satsang about how he knew everything and if we thought he didnt, it was like lighting a fire in a giants hair and not expecting him to know-- or some such drivel.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 23:47:21 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: You mean this, chr? - JM read
Message:
'And that 'Bon Voyage' thing happens all the time. 'Close the door; then Guru Maharaj Ji won't see.' Then - -where are we? I mean what are we doing? 'Close the door and Guru Maharaj Ji won't see!' You know? 'Don't tell. Guru Maharaj Ji won't know about it.'

'I mean that is stupid. That's like those guys who walked into the giant's hair looking for the giant and said, 'Oh what a jungle! Let's light a fire. We can't miss it. It's too big.' They walked all over his shoulders. Everywhere.

'And that's stupid. It really is. Btu don't we all fall victims to that? Yes sir. We all do. The ones that laughed and then the ones that didn't.

'And we have to make that step really happen in our lives, so we get out of that chakra. To me, I would be less bothered -- I AM less bothered -- about anybody becoming a mule, a horse, an insect, or going through the 840 million thousand -- whatever it is -- forms of life. That's nothing.

*****

'I know that the Ramayana obviously is not wrong. It is right. But let's throw out a few of these justifications. So far as this world is concerned, definitely animals are better off. BUT so far as Knowledge is concerned, so far as the recognition of Guru Maharaj Ji is concerned, only the human beings are capable of doing that.

*****

[Glad to oblige, chr. But this next part's for me. Maharaji, talking about the anticipated week long Hans Jayanti festival, really puts the screws to Mr. Mind]

'And in that week, I'm not lookign forward for chitchat. None whatsoever. NONE. No chitchat. Yes, not even about: 'Oh, did that guy make it here?' A very simple excuse: 'Did that guy make it here? did you see him?'

'Yeah, but I saw this guy.' And for hours that conversation just ...

'You know, Guru Maharaj Ji is the person that gives you a mile. Mind is the thing that takes an inch, and stretches it into a mile. And the thing is, all mind needs is just a little bit of fuel, ever so little, ever so little, Anything can start a conversation. [Pretty scary, eh, Chris? Whew! Amost anything!]

'That's seven days of our life. But not 'seven days' -- every MOMENT has to become one with Guru Maharaj Ji. Not 20 minutes. What's the 20 minutes going to DO? Why do you only wnt 20 minutes? Every MOMENT has to become that. 20 minutes is not long enough. Two minutes is not long enough. Even 100 years is not long enough, to tell you the truth.

'But one lifetime, even one second, to completely prostrate yourself to Guru Maharaj Ji -- for one second, truly, authentically, to surrender to Guru Maharja Ji forever -- is enough. Once. Because Guru Maharaj Ji will then take you, put you in his ship, and carry you away.

[It goes on and on. Stuff like 'one second of mind-drift and that's enough'. Nothing quite like 'happy new breath! but I'll read it over again. Must be me, I guess.]
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 00:05:18 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You mean this, chr? - JM read
Message:
I'd forgotten just how bizarre his satsangs were.Anyway,things were better at HJ --the flowers were bigger and covered more of him. Actually I remember that when M first danced ,the thought came into my head that he was a lousy dancer and completely out of rythm to the music. I quickly and guiltily pushed this thoght out of my mind.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 10:58:42 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You mean this, chr? - JM read
Message:
Hi Jim,

I'm now realizing that I've a hard time understanding ANYTHING of this all BS cult speaking.

If you can make some sense out of it, please explain me.

I've just back from a 2 weeks vacations in Yemen, and their situation is much worse: totalitarian muslim country, everybody carrying weapons, totally acculturate, perfect example of what brainwashing and cult can lead a country and millions of people to.

I've had extremely interesting conversations with people from Irak living there, their situation is also really bad, mentally speaking.

Cults have a lot in common with totalitarian brainwashing.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:47:10 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: You mean this, chr? - JM read
Message:
Hi JM,
How about starting a thread up top and start to
tell us about your trip.
And those points you mention here also.
It will be a good thread.
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 10:19:27 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You mean this, chr? - JM read
Message:
From the horse's mouth--thanks, Jim. ALways good to go back to the source and see what the guy was really saying.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 07:55:37 (EST)
From: nitpicker
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Another one bites the dust
Message:
Encouraged by Jim and Barney I seem to have found a new vocation in life as a critic. Not a lot of money in it at the moment though. Still a man's gotta do....

Steven Ayre, the esteemed doctor of Chigaco, writes an intelligent account of the 'best mistake of (his) life'

'All my life I wanted to know. It wasn't real clear to me exactly what I wanted to know, but I wanted to know it. Being Canadian, Caucasian, and a Capricorn, I went the conventional route first'
I am not sure what the relevance of the three 'c's are - especially Capricorn. Does it mean that Steven believed in the ancient tom foolery called astrology or is he just shooting the breeze?
He went to medical school only to find out that they didn't know whatever it was he wanted to know. I hope he doesn't mean that they didn't know how to cure people as his patients will now be in trouble if that was the case.
But to continue his story..
'. What happened next is a long story but, briefly, I got 'zapped' that night. Whatever prayer is, I did it, from a crying need within just for something beautiful to come into my life. And it did. And then it went away, leaving me with an all-consuming thirst to get home again - back to that experience.'

We are left hanging a bit here. What was this mysterious experience that 'zapped' him? Aliens invading the nervous system? A surge of synaptic activity( or whatever you doctors call these electro-chemical goings on inside the body and brain)? Whatever it was it came and went pretty quick and left him wanting more. This happens to me most Friday nights at the Dog and Duck but the wish for more has usually left by the next morning to be replaced with that 'never again' feeling which lasts unitl about 6.00 p.m. that Saturday evening. But I am being facetious here and I know that Steven would regard experiences such as being a bit squiffy as the antithesis to his own mystical buzz.
He goes on to say..
'Immediately thereafter, I went on this furious crusade, reading every holy or heavy book I could get my hands on'
I can sort of understand diving into holy books ( although what about psychology, philosophy or any of the expressionist/impressionist artists/writers etc.etc.) but what made you read all the 'heavy' books that you could lay your hands on? What is the heaviest book you read? Some books come out in various editions - the hardbacks are always heavier, did that make them more attractive?
Steven then gives an example of the great sense of humour that Maharaji has. When someone asked about death, a worry that most of have to varying degrees throughout our lives, he gave an elaborate answer and then admitted that he was having the questioner on, and that he really didn't know the answer. Humour is not the word I would use to describe this childish activity.
Despite me taking the mickey,I think Steven's story is one of the more human ones on the ELK pages.He talks about having the best of times and the worst of times - and this coming from a premie is something. Even after receiving the perfect gift of knowledge he has done 'weird and studip things',
experienced 'frustration and pain', lost his job, lost his wife, lost EVERYTHING. He even ( and this is a new one to me) ended up 'drinking of dead waters' after which he lived in a shack and, can you believe it, things then GOT WORSE! Life with knowledge can be a bit of a trial it seems.
I wonder if Steven realises that he could have had all these experiences even without knowledge - he might even been able to avoid a few of the worst ones if he had taken a different path through life but that's all in the past, the situation now is...
'...the progress I am experiencing is this: I feel this love in my heart just about constantly nowadays - if I choose to. Simply lovely, and constant.'
I am genuinely glad to hear it. Despite what some people say about me I never like to see anyone suffering and, after life deals a few cruel blows, who can blame anyone for letting themselves sink into a nice warm fluffy environment.
I do, however have a few words of warning. Steven says 'The depth and the integrity and the reality of all this fascinates me, beguiles me.' but what makes it more real than anything else; and why now; and why not then; and what about the future?
Wouldn't it be better, even if it is a little less high flying, to build a foundation that does not deny reason? ''Not by explanations, but by a feeling must this life be lived.' is a dangerous road to travel as feelings can lead you to some very dodgy places if you leave your rational mind behind.
I hope that the good times continue to roll but don't forget the TRUTH is out there and we will all have to face it one day - so don't close off to other people's perspective on life( you can always learn something new) and, even though you think you have found what you were looking for, keep an eye out - there may be something even more real around the corner.
The Nitpicker
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 11:29:49 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: nitpicker
Subject: Another one bites the dust
Message:
Aren't we awfully grumpy today nitpicker?

Really, I think that ridiculing people's very real experiences is not very helpful.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:13:25 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: My 2 cents
Message:
I think Nitpicker is hilarious.

Premies' 'very real experiences' and the former guru's 'teachings' are exactly what we are here to ridicule.

At least in this X's humble opinion.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:16:00 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: If they are real, why...
Message:
Saul: If the experiences are real, why do they use cookie-cutter language and expressions to describe them? It would seem that if the experiences were 'genuine,' then there would be as many different expressions of it as there were 'true' experiences. When someone uses cookie-cutter language, they sound like they are just parroting others. In fact, due to the lack of diversity, I would have to assume that parroting, per se, is the 'real truth' of their experiences. Just an observation...
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 20:13:40 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: What do you mean by 'real?'
Message:
Mike, et al:

If the experiences are real, why do they use cookie-cutter language and expressions to describe them?

Very good point. What you are addressing here is what a number of philosophers call 'transparency' in the realm of 'dramaturgical action.' (Sorry about that.) When we speak of a thing as 'real' what we usually mean is 'verifiable,' so there is simply no way that a subjective experience can meet that criterion. It is not appropriate to hold it to that. What is appropriate is to ask whether the person making the expression is revealing him/herself honestly. There is reason to believe that premies and members of other religious or political groups are not being transparent, if they are hiding the real nature of their experience behind an over simplified agree-upon image, or a compromised frame of reference. We can grant a certain lattitude due to the fact that an experience very far removed from everyday life may be very difficult to express accurately. So people try to work out the terms of the expression. But, given the diversity of language we ought to eventually see people start to branch out and experiment with new expressions that may be more accurate or more readily understood. In the 25 years since M. came to the West these expression have changed very little. This leads me to believe that many people are simply making it up.

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 10:29:22 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: What do you mean by 'real?'
Message:
Yup--another word for what you're talking about is 'authenticity'--or 'being authentic'
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 22:41:15 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: If they are real, why...
Message:
Hi Mike et al.,

Not everyone is as articulate as you guys.

I'm reminded of a Steve Martin routine. He says 'You shouldn't feel bad that you're not as articulate as I am. I am a professional comedian. After all, some people have a way with words and other people..........not have way.'

The point that I'd like to make is that the premies really are feeling something deep here - it's deep to them and that means that it's deep in my book by definition. If you take the attitude that you are going to ridicule them or pretend that they are faking it I think that this is unfair. Also, I think that it is counterproductive. They KNOW that their experiences are real and if you deny that it just supports the stereotype (which I am imagining exists) of Ex-premies as sad people who tragically just never got it.

I do admit that some of that stuff is awfully goofy.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 23:01:34 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: I don't think so, Saul
Message:
The point that I'd like to make is that the premies really are feeling something deep here - it's deep to them and that means that it's deep in my book by definition.

I'd like to read your dictionary! You're completely eliminating conscious exaggeration, self-deception, language diltuion, enculturated special meanings and other kinds of group think. Take the word 'beautiful'. Premies use it for anything. ('It was really beautiful the way the premies bought all the CD's'). It doesn't end up meaning 'beuatiful' anymore. It becomes no more than a verbal tick.

In your dictionary, though, if they SAY it's beautiful, it's beautiful. Bizarre.

Premie walks up to another premie:

'Happy new breath!

'And a happy new breath, to you, brother! How's your experience? Deep and beautiful, by the grace, I hope.'

'Yes indeed, brother, deep and beautiful. And how is yours ay I ask, by the grace? Are you experiencing profound gratitude?'

'Boundless appreciation for the Master, brother. Thank you for asking. Now, are you ready? I can wait no longer. My heart is literally breaking deep within inside'

'Yes, brother, please. Turn on the video!'

By your reckoning, taking these jokers at face value, they're having deep, profound, beautiful expeiences. Thanks for the laugh.

If you take the attitude that you are going to ridicule them or pretend that they are faking it I think that this is unfair. Also, I think that it is counterproductive.

It might be counterproductive if your only goal was to put them at ease no matter what. I guess you have to be clear on what you're trying to 'produce'. What's YOUR goal in all this? But unfair? Hardly!

They KNOW that their experiences are real and if you deny that it just supports the stereotype (which I am imagining exists) of Ex-premies as sad people who tragically just never got it.

Well, again, Saul, you're giving away the store. They don't 'KNOW' anything of the sort. They're in a cult and thus imagine all sorts of things.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 00:27:02 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I don't think so, Saul
Message:
Hi Jim,

You probably know alot more about this than I do (I'm just an ex-almost-aspirant). I do see the point, though, that some of this stuff has a kind of creepy group-think-everyone-repeat-the-currently-approved-buzzword aspect to it. Some, though, does not strike me this way. This kind of talk you describe above would freak me out extremely, but I never heard it from the few premies I knew. I suppose it's possible that they only talked this way among themselves.

I might be wrong, but my impression is that people generally have real, signficant and often good experiences with K, but that they are tricked into becoming totally dependent upon M before getting to that point.

I'm just a little concerned that you will fail to reach many premies if you just deny the reality of their experience.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 01:04:56 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: What Bob Mishler said
Message:
Dear Saul,
Brian has a good quote from a radio interview with Bob Mishler (former president of DLM) in 1979, shortly after he stopped following Maharaji. I think it's pertinent to this discussion, and I think it's really good advice (I know some people here probably won't agree).

In the quote, Bob Mishler is talking about how family and friends should deal with premies.

What I would usually try and tell [people concerned] was to try and keep some respect for the individual's experience and for their faith in their beliefs. If the family member suddenly challenges that, and says: 'How could you believe such a stupid
thing?', it reflects on the individual as if to deny their experience altogether.

These people really do have an experience. They may be mistaken in attributing whatever inner spiritual peace they find within themselves to the guru. In fact, he really doesn't have anything to do with it, but they are sincere in placing their faith in him.

We must try to help them see that the guru really isn't responsible for whatever positive benefits they are deriving from their belief, and that therefore they shouldn't continue to allow their lives to be dominated by subservience to the guru.

Friends and relatives are going to have to try to understand the experience enough to be able to really relate to the people by not regarding them as mental defectives. A lot of the conversations have centred around just how to make a much stronger contact. I know that a lot of the people involved are getting a lot of psychological strokes from the individuals that they associate with.

If the parents just treat them as naughty children and take a disapproving attitude, they tend to take that personally as though the parents were disapproving of them as a person. This not only further alienates them, but actually severs those ties altogether. In that sense, it actually aids and abets the cult.

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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 07:17:51 (EST)
From: nitpicker
Email: nitpicker@bigfoot.com
To: Katie
Subject: What Bob Mishler said
Message:
Katie,
You have quoted one of the ancient and legendary ex's, the Great Mishler..
If the family member suddenly challenges that, and says: 'How could you
believe such a stupid thing?', it reflects on the individual as if to deny
their experience altogether.

But the thing is (IMHO)the experience is NOT REAL! so why not deny it? It
would be very patronising to go along with some crazy ideas just because you did
not want to upset someone. Besides this is talking about the close relationship
within a family. I think anyone who put's his/her head out into the public
arena should be prepared to accept criticism of their beliefs.
I don't know these people, they do not know me and I have no wish to harm them
,so they should not take it personally. I feel I have the right to ridicule
something that I see as ridiculous.

Friends and relatives are going to have to try to understand the experience
enough to be able to really relate to the people by not regarding them as
mental defectives

Again Bob is talking about friends and relatives. These people on ELK are
neither and although I love them all with a deep and beautiful love I can't
help feeling that some of them are mental defectives.
Happy New Breath
Nitpicker
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 10:21:46 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: nitpicker
Subject: What Bob Mishler said
Message:
Dear Nitpicker -
I was trying to express support for Saul's point of view - I was not trying to slam you or say you didn't have the right to say something. Everyone here has a different style, and a different way of trying to communicate. I just wanted to give some support for Saul's point of view, and to express my own. Fair enough?

I really didn't have an 'experience' with Knowledge, but I believe that a lot of people do - even some of the exes on this site still meditate. Thus I don't argue with people about the validity of their experiences - IMHO it's futile. I think part of the point of this site is to enable people to separate any experience they might have had from the trappings surrounding it.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 14:59:16 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: nitpicker
Subject: What Bob Mishler said
Message:
But the thing is (IMHO)the experience is NOT REAL!

Are you saying the experience is an illusion? If someone takes a drug, and has an 'experience' of walking on water as a result, is that experience NOT REAL? I think the 'experience' is very real, it's just a mistake to think that it happened somewhere other than within your own brain.

I guess I agree with Mishler. The positive, enjoyable, 'experience' I had as a premie practicing knowledge was not fake. What was an wrong was attributing the experience I was having to Maharaji, instead of my own faith, beliefs, sincerity, group high, etc. And by doing that, all the cult-problems, etc., invaded my life.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 18:54:47 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: balance
Message:
Thanks for the support Katie & JW.

Maybe we have a good cop/bad cop thing going here. It may be that some people respond well to a smack on the nose with a rolled up newspaper (which they get from Jim).

Also, I suspect that the sheer thrill of calling Maharaji names might be very useful and liberating. I'll bet that there are a significant class of people who would suddenly snap out of it if the could somehow bring themselves to utter the words.

'MAHARAJI IS A BLOATED GREEDY STINKING GREASE HAMSTER!!'

or words to that effect (Jim does this much better than I do).
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 19:20:41 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: Balance
Message:
I agree, Saul - I've seen it happen both ways.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 19:33:30 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: not any more!
Message:
Saul,

I've seen the light. Broni's right. The time has come. The Lord has won. You bgetter watch your mouth now, buster, or someone's going to have to wash it out for you!

Maharaji, if your divine site monitor reports this to you, I jsut want to clarify that here's all the proof you need. It was Saul who was calling you a hamster and other unspeakable names. Like Marolyn said, Lord, these people are all assholes. Should we nuke 'em?

Please, Lord, I'm anxious to serve.

Happy new breath!
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 10:44:34 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: balance
Message:
Enjoying reading this thread Saul. I think you are right that people have different styles of confronting Maharaji's followers. I think Bob Mischler made many good points in the interview--I think he was referring to loved ones keeping the lines of communication open with another loved one.

I have to admit my own mother & dad did this with me (bless them). Instead of saying 'You stupid freak, can't you see that you are spaced out and that this Guru is a money-grubbing viper?' my dear mom tried to understand that I was on a sincere spiritual quest. My dad, the atheist, told me to 'crunch autumn leaves under my feet' when I started getting too heavy. Then there was one visit where my mom slammed me and basically told me it was time to grow up: 'Look at you, you don't have a regular job, you dress like abum, you don't even have a bank account. '(this was 17 years ago) And hey, I needed that too!! It hurt like hell, but who else is going to love you enough to tell you the truth about yourself???
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 00:20:50 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: balance
Message:
Bravo!
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:56:45 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: A case in point
Message:
Saul:

I've been thinking about how my own expressions were funneled into acceptable channels. Across from the Palisades residence I remember talking to some premies and aspirants about experiences I'd been having for quite awhile. I was still an aspirant, and can't recall for sure whether Mike was there at that time or not. But I used to see these flashes of light, and pinwheel mandalas spinning. A number of things that were not typical, but were legitimate and interesting for me. Those experiences gave me a good deal of comfort. Perhaps they had a physical explanation? But the point was that they didn't fit very well into the cosmology of Knowledge, so I was more or less encouraged to suppress them. 'It can't hold a candle to Knowledge,' was the general opinion of the 'experts.' Therefore, I never followed anything up. I feel pretty sure, now, that the experience called 'Knowledge' and those personal experiences all came from the same place: acetylcholine or God, whatever. If I had not been encouraged to deny those experiences I might have made that connection much earlier, and would have seen Maharaji is much less unique. That would have been inconvenient for him, and for his scheme. See?

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 00:12:46 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: A case in point
Message:
I think I understand Scott. I never got into it that far myself so I didn't experience any of the premie peer pressure.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 04:53:40 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: A case in point
Message:
Couldn't agree more Scott.

From an article on neuro-science I read recently, 'meanwhile, neurologists at the University of California in San Diego have located an area in the temporal lobe of the brain which appears to produce intense feelings of spiritual transcendence, combined with a sense of some mystical presence. One researcher has even managed to reproduce such feelings in otherwise unreligious people by stimulating this area'.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 01:24:02 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: If they are real, why...
Message:
Saul:

Re: The point that I'd like to make is that the premies really are feeling something deep here - it's deep to them and that means that it's deep in my book by definition.

Well, I won't quibble with you about whether they are experiencing something deep. However, I think they are expressing it (whatever it is) with a certain amount of cowardice. In other words, they are mis-expressing it because it's too much trouble to be clear. As a freind of mine said once (a premie and a psychotherapist), you don't have to be articulate to be clear. The point is to express your actual experience rather than something that only roughly approximates it. I don't see how you can do that if you ultimately rely on a Guru. He compels you to be too selective about what you express, so that it doesn't offend him or his scheme.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 19:56:05 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: If they are real, why...
Message:
As usual Scott, spot on the button.
I would also add that you've got me a little jealous with your precision and clarity of thought, loved that transparency posting. So much so, that I'm on my third attempt to respond to your e-mail!
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:48:19 (EST)
From: nitpicker
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: Another one bites the dust
Message:
Aren't we awfully grumpy today nitpicker?
I'll take that as a compliment.
If these experiences are as real as you seem to think they are then the 'experiencers' are having a great time and will not mind a little criticism. Anyhow I am not ridiculing either them or their experience ( well not all the time ) - just telling it how I see it.
yours grumpily
Nitpicker.
p.s. Thanks for the favourable criticism John.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 14:12:59 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: nitpicker
Subject: Another one bites the dust
Message:
>''Not by explanations, but by a feeling must this life be lived.' is a dangerous road to travel as feelings can lead you to some very dodgy places if you leave your rational mind behind.

Your rational mind can lead you to some very desolate places if you leave your feelings behind.
Love is a feeling.

CD
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 15:15:30 (EST)
From: seymour
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Another one bites the dust
Message:
'Love is a feeling'
That is true CD, but so is hate, sadness, jealousy, anger, fear, worry, depression, anxiety, stress etc. etc. etc.
I'm sure these all have their place in the scheme of things but why abandon reason and open debate?
A fellow traveller
Seymour
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 10:54:16 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Feeling/thinking
Message:
Sometimes getting stuck in our feelings means getting stuck in emotional baggage. We can get programmed to return to certain feelings again and again for better or worse. It wasn't helpful to me when I was a premie, to just 'feel' that Maharaji would take care of things whenever life threw me a curveball. In fact, I'd say it was downright destructive thinking/feeling. A little 'cognitive therapy' went a long way to help myself become more emotionally resilient and less dependent on ' that feeling'.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 16:47:57 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Another one bites the dust
Message:
CD: You are right, Love is a feeling. BUT, the rational mind ensures that you 'aim it' correctly. Love without a rational mind is, very likely, love misdirected. BOTH go together, not one over the other, CD.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 20:08:13 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Desolation
Message:
What's wrong with a bit of desolation, much rather have the truth of rationality than the security blanket of a self-deluding love.
The fear of desolation is I suggest, one of the major reasons why his royal highness is able to cram so much unthinking garbage through people's heads. One of the reasons why he attracts so many sensitive types.
That desolation is also called growing up and accepting the full reality. For myself the desolation of a loss of hope, in his grace himself and thus the future of this planet, (what else is left that's gonna save us), has also produced the most surprizingly good feelings once I'd worked through that loss. It's called being real.
Hopefully cd you'll get past the nappy stage at some point and join the real world, you might even start listening to some decent music. Remember without the multi-nationals and their desire for planetary rape, we wouldn't even have such things as cd's.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 12:15:30 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Desolation
Message:
ham: Good points, all around! I think 'we' are wasting our time when we talk about environmental concerns with premies. They don't care! If they did, they would ask M to stop flying his smog-belcher and take commercial travel, instead. His waste of rare and valuable resources is the making of his gold faucets is another example. I've tried, but they just don't seem to care, at all! After all, it's 'god' that's helping to lay-waste to their planet.....
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 20:20:08 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Desolation
Message:
Indeed Mike, and isn't it fucking ironic, with all their talk of appreciating life! When there's no planet left it will be interesting to see how much 'enjoyment' is left. Like so many new-agers, their approach to be here now, living in the moment, denies any sense of awareness, let alone responsibility, of what will be left for their grandchildren.

Almost makes me embarrassed to admit those 'momentary' concerns are valuable to me. Tarred with the same brush etc. God, how many valuable experiential concepts are devalued and ruined by shallowness. Also exposes how easy it is to be damaging to the ground level when you have a hierarchical belief structure with god at the top, answerable to no-one and beyond all responsibility.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 13:46:45 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: To ham - OT
Message:
Excuse me for hijacking a thread, but I didn't want to start a new one.
Ham, are you Hamzen? If so, I will be on vacation for a couple of weeks and intend to catch up on my new-music-listening. I forgot the name of the artist you recommended. I would appreciate it if you could tell me again either here or email: esherwood@ucsd.edu. Thanks.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 01:46:50 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Events - the Master Database
Message:
Some of this is for Gail and here little experience.

You gotta know that for all events seating and admission is strictly controlled by the Master Database that they have on all of us who have ever gone to programs where we somehow gave them our name and other information.

At the last Long Bleach event that I went to I got a seat way back and up in the balcony. I'm pretty sure that I got my request in to get better, but I suspect that the database might have me down as a potential bongo for numerous reasons which I won't go into.

You know for sure that the PAMs get seats up front. And you know that the Master Database is tied into the $$$ contributions database.

Big Daddy is watching! He knows who's naughty and nice.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 11:09:08 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: please explain how this works
Message:
I have not been to anything in almost 20 years, nor do I want to go, but I am curious.Do you think someone that 'old' is in a database? So all seating is assigned now? No more jockeying and maneuvering and manipulating for seats? No more doing 'the right' service for a better seat? Just $$$ that is what counts? How many $$$ would you have to fork out for a good seat? Do they check ID as people come in?
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 11:58:18 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: BARNEY IS RIGHT ON THE MONEY
Message:
Barney indicated that if seating were arranged by FIRST COME/FIRST SERVE as MJ boasted, he would have had a much better seat, BUTTTT. small-potatoes contributors and/or bongo PWKS don't warrant a good seat.

When I went to Australia five years ago, I was invited to stay in a tent on the land, all expenses paid (of course, contributions were welcome-and I covered my butt). I was told that MJ picked people to stay by randomly pointing to the list: this one, that one. I was thrilled. On the way home an upper-echelon premie suggested that the reason I got to stay was organizers or MJ thought I was Stuart McDougall's wife or relative.

Speaking of Stuart, he's a great guy. He lived as the community co-ordinator for a while. I still remember his 'COLOUR MY WORLD WITH LOVE' darshan story. He was always kind and helpful. :>)
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 13:08:51 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: please explain how this works
Message:
well, if you are really 'old' and haven't yet been updated into the database they probably don't know too much about you. If you re-enter the cult you would have to register into the database and you'd probably be a nobody and get a poor seat.

no, there's no open festival seating at all.

maybe if you did service you could get a better seat, but service is hard to come by and is usually arranged by your local community leaders after they determine you are worthy and trusted
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 15:41:19 (EST)
From: Marv
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: please explain how this works
Message:
You are absolutely correct. Having done 'service' at many events the seat I registred for before leaving for the program was usually taken away from me and I was assigned a better seat because of doing service. Further, monetary contributions are kept track of so as at the end of the year DLM aka EV can send tax exempt statements to contributors. At least that's the official word. The contributions database is tied into the seating database. Maharaji is really into computers, ie. the 25th Anaversary event in Miami 1996 had more than 25 computers giving special effects to the stage where M sat. M often mentions how he plays computer chess and cheats when he does not win. He also has improved his english via computer programs, ie 'entelechy'. In fact he has improved his english so well that he can do effective double-talk in english. Remember his broken english when he first arrived in the west. He has computer databases for everything. How many people has received 'K', how many aspirants in each country, attendance at local video events, etc. Oh and yes, how much money is contributed and by whom.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 16:49:05 (EST)
From: Marv
Email: None
To: Marv
Subject: please explain how this works
Message:
So I forgot to add that anyone who orders stuff from the catalogue 'Keeping In Touch', which I still receive, are also in a database.
If you attended the event in Chicago 1996 then you might have gotten some idea of how many computer databases Maharji keeps. His is no longer an open unconditional relationship, as it was in the 1970's. It is tightly controlled, censored and very conditional. The videos and everything else are censored. If you go to a program and then watch the video of that same program you'll see the editing and censorship. This is not a mistake, it is done by design, ie. the old songs refering to Guru Maharaji were sung at the 25th Anaversary event but in the video of the same all references to 'Guru Maharaji' were cut out. The same applies to the music tapes. Old songs were re-written leaving out all sandscript words, etc. I have also found this censorship/editing in M's discourses. Video message vs message at the live event. Seating at an event is censored. Prem Rawat aka Maharaji is a control addict. And his followers are so blind that all they care about is their drug; a feel-good expreience and graditude for the guru. The saying goes; I don't care if I'm manipulated and abused as long as it feels good. When you do 'service' at a program you are told what to say and not say to the public, you're not allowed to express your true feelings. At the event in Colorado Springs 1998 I was told by 'coordinators' that M grades each program. But will never give an 'A' because an 'A' means perfect. 'B' is very good, 'C' is good, 'D' is passing and 'E' is a non-event (No 'F'). A non-event means the event setup was shabby, the thing did'nt start on time, etc. Wonder what he graded the downlink event as they had trouble with the microphone?
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 17:25:57 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Marv
Subject: please explain how this works
Message:
I was there, in Pasadena, and this may sound cynical, but my gut reaction was that the microphone malfunction was staged. It just seemed a little unlikely that an error of that magnitude would just 'happen' like that. It also seemed a little too convenient an opportunity for gmj to make his little cutsiepie faces and arouse the audience, which is exactly what happened. Then an alternative mic just shows up, in a timely fashion. Then
when his original mc turns on suddenly in the middle of his monologue, he uses the opportunity to crack a joke, and make a point about not relying too much on technology.
Impromptu? Spontaneous?
I doubt it.

x
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 17:35:31 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: x
Subject: X-Add to Pasedena transcript?
Message:
Hi X:

I hope you had a great time at the Lord's feet and got really blissed out. Actually, I hope you had a nice visit with your family. Can you think of anything to add to the first three - HAPPY NEW BREATH, ASSHOLE posts? Jim copied them over from the EL site.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 23:26:56 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: X-Add to Pasedena transcript?
Message:
Hi Gail,
Actually I avoided my family, and did kind of a covert operation, re-con mission. I just cruised in, no pre registration at all, and acted like I knew where I was going.
I just grabbed a seat, but then I noticed people with little green tickets, so I found an usher handing out late arrival tickets. With the ticket came a little card requesting that I register after the event, in order to properly count the attendance, etc. Donation to cover event $40.00.
The transcript Jim put in was very accurate and comprehensive. The only thing extra that I remember was gmj babbling something like, 'We're done with phase one, now it's time to move on to phase two.' I think he was talking in the context of propagation.
Oh yeah, also he said a premie wondered what a past perfect master(jesus?) would say about something.
Gmj said it like, 'He asked ME, what I thought so and so would say, emphasis on ME. Then he (gmj)said, thats whats so great about me being alive, when someones alive you can interact and ask questions directly. Ironic he would say that, since he's unwilling to answer any ones REAL questions.
He was obviosly implying he's on the same level as jesus.
I agree, they're both frauds.
The event kicked off with some contrived, english, Robin Leach imitator appearing on the monitor, attempting to add legitimacy to everything with his polished, wealthy, priveledged accent.
Then a super expensive computer animated segment of the planet with a satellite, and the words Maharaji Live.
It looked like CNN or something. The style of the opening video sequences was like the tv show A Current Affair.
Then it really got disturbing when Premlatta came out in a tight red sweater to open the show.
I thought she seemed like a big phony, I dont trust her at all, she's a chip off the old block all right!
She said shes so happy to finally receive K blah blah. She said she showed gmj her speech(?) the night before and, well he changed it a little, actually he changed it quite a lot.(Big laughs from audience.)
Next Daya sings scary devotional song.
Now Big M hits the stage, big standing ovation, thunderous cheers.
Then the mic incident. GMJ plays the toleration act, making little faces.
Bongo's cry out 'We love you Maharaji' 'Dance for us Maharaji' etc.
This goes on 2 minutes.
Someone brings out alternate mic.
Various countries, including India, Australia, UK etc.
attempt to talk live to gmj on the monitor. Most of them cant be heard though. Technical difficulties. For some reason Greece is loud and clear though, as the head Greek tells Maharaji he should 'visit Greece, it's very warm here.' This gets a few chuckles out of the crowd.
Then comes the long winded boring monologue. At the end he talks for a couple minutes in hindu, no translation for english only crowd. All the premies think its neat though.
He's so cool! He knows Hindu!
Finally Daya winds up the show with 2 more devotional songs, with lyrics like, You taught me how to fly, you gave me wings, now my heart is full, thanks to you....etc. The music itself is terrible cliched crap, exactly what I try to avoid musically.
It seems like the real message is in the devotion songs, the lyrics are really disturbing.
Tears were flowing.
The atmosphere was a little too 'clubby' for me so I made a quick exit.
Hope this fills in a few details for you.

Take Care, x
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 00:02:54 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: x
Subject: X-Add to Pasedena transcript?
Message:
Thanks for that, x.

Time for a shower. (Is THAT phase 2?)
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 19:25:47 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: x/Jim
Subject: Phase2/jim/x
Message:
The sheer gall of the geezer is amazing, the premies truly are 'mindless', the number of times he's started phase 2 is truly a wonder to behold. I'm sure I first heard him say that in 81/82. Of course all the premies got excited, such a scientific word to use.

Does anyone remember the rumours that duckball was a computer wizard who had been hired at different times by I.B.M, that he made a mint using these 'skills' of his, or was this only a british rumour?

x, what music you into?
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 01:56:09 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Thanks, X!
Message:
I'm glad to hear you don't have to see the Big One in order to chat with your family. You truly are a dedicated X.
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 16:35:50 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: x
Subject: X-cept
Message:
>Then it really got disturbing when Premlatta came out in a tight red sweater to open the show. I thought she seemed like a big phony, I dont trust her at all, she's a chip off the old block all right!

Disturbing?
You hate the site of a beautiful lady as a presenter?

Premlatta was poised, spoke well, had a beautiful smile and projected sincerity.
She did good!
The Pasadena program had a great feel for those who had a true interest in the message presented.

X, your addition to the transcript rings of the only cheap shots you could feebly gather to increase your popularity on this forum. That is disturbing and a bit sad.

Still, I remain optimistic.

Cheers,
CD
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 20:30:33 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: X-cretia
Message:
Still, I remain optimistic.

You remain a weenie is more like it. Just to remind you, Chris, you could NEVER, in a million years, carry on the way you do here if we were meeting in person. You don't have the guts to discuss anything. Imagine how that would play sitting around a table. What? You'd just smile, say nothing except for the odd pot shot, answer no questions other than entirely safe, innocuous ones?

Happy new breath, asshole.

Jim
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 20:20:47 (EST)
From: another ex-premie
Email: None
To: Marv
Subject: broken english
Message:
'Remember his broken english when he first arrived in the west'.

Sure do!!! One word in particular: nu-ke-le-er. His version of 'nuclear'.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 02:59:00 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: another ex-premie
Subject: shrieking, screeching english
Message:
ok, enteleky, telephony, Schenectady, and Poughkeepsie.

He can say them all now and I probably can't spell 'em.

But why, why? Why does God have to shriek and screech?

With all his dough and with all that's riding on his speaking skills he needs to get a consultation with a speach therapist.

The worse torture I've ever been through (worse than a name_your_least_favorite_music artist concert) were little community video events where the people doing Service running the AV thought that the volume should be LOUD! And I'm not talking loud, loud. And besides, I'm nearly half deaf anyway. But, I'm talking painful at moderate TV listening volumes.

I'd rather be listening to a flock of seagulls (pun intended.)
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 19:30:56 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: shrieking, screeching english
Message:
'shrieking, screeching english', a tone of voice that from any other person alive would've led us to the next room pronto!
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 00:34:51 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: the damn remote control
Message:
no, Maharaji, the remote control of which you speak does not work through static electicity if it is the one that I imagine was popular back then. It was sound driven. There were little tuning fork things and when you clicked it they got whacked and made a sound. The television had something that could pick up on those frequencies and the magic happened. Nothing really fancy other than the part on the TV set end. No batteries, no electricity of any kind.

BTW, today's remotes use pulsed infared light and do need batteries.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 01:21:06 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: the damn remote control
Message:
You're right, Barney. I remember that one could rattle one's keys and change channels on those old sets; my father was a TV Repairman and we used to do that in the shop all the time. How can the LOTU be so mis-informed? Hey, I have another question: if we are supposed to follow the Living Master of Today, why does M make such a big deal about that dead PM he followed? He should get with the program and follow the Living Master of Today, Guru Mariachi!
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 01:37:02 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Bhole Shri Guru Mariachi! (nt)
Message:
hail guru mariachi!
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 09:11:34 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Guru Mariachi
Message:
Dear Munchkin!
I just wanted to tell you I had no idea all we were to each other. Must be I was thinking, damn that mind! And here you are god and a rock and roller besides, could have had it all and I blew it, twice now, BM and Guru Mariachi!
Love you with all my imperfections,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 11:57:29 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Guru Mariachi
Message:
Hi Robyn,
You're so right about that Guru Mariachi--he's everything a gopi or a groupie could ever wish for.
Mickey,
I loved your tape. And my friend from Japan asked me to thank you for your comments on St. Augustine. As a result, she approached her term paper from a totally different direction.
With love,
eb
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 16:39:47 (EST)
From: Mickey the Mariachi
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Guru Mariachi
Message:
Hi eb, I'm glad you liked the tape. Did you ever watch SCTV? Rick Moranis played a Rocker character on their soap opera 'The Days of the Week.' Any time a woman would compliment his music he would say 'It's great to know that my music turns on pretty girls like you.' All I can say to you is: 'It's great to know that my music...' Let me know how your friend did on her paper about St. Augustine.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:11:29 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Guru Mariachi
Subject: Oh my Guru mariachi
Message:
GM: This is your worthless, self-effacing, grubby and most humble dung-beetle speaking. Did you get the 'old twenties' that I sent to you some time back (at your personal request)?

I know that I can NEVER do enough to pay you back for that special gift, but I will try till eternity, if that's what it takes. You are the infinite ocean of bliss and I, your personal slave...er, ah...servant dung-beetle, wish to dive in and experience 'that place,' 'that perfection,' 'that joy,' 'that, that!'

Tell me what you wish of me and 'that' I will do (only a few questions asked... I promise!)

You are truely da faddah Guru.... ;-)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 16:50:24 (EST)
From: Guru Mariachi
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Oh my Guru mariachi
Message:
Happy Fresh Breath, my dear malodorous dung-beetle. I DID recieve the old twenties, and just in the nick of time let me tell you! They were so full of bad karma that I had to work very hard to cleanse them of the sin they carried. However, your Guru Mariachi, in his infinite love and wisdom, did cleanse said twenties and sent them back into the economy (through the local liquor store and the nimble fingers of a very talented young masseuse who knows exactly where your Guru Mariachi needs to be kneaded) to bring love and blessings to all who touch them. Just think, lowly little amore, you helped to bring love and blessings to the humble liquor store owner and the sweet little masseuse, not to mention all the crack dealers and other entreprenuers on the wrong side of town. And, if anyone ever asks your Guru Mariachi where he got this money, you will get ALL the bla...er, glory!!! Yes, you are doubly blessed! So, keep sending in those twenties...
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Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 23:48:11 (EST)
From: God
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Everyone & Gail
Subject: Hey Gail
Message:
I am God and you're welcome to come to all my programs in the sky. In fact, I have no enemies and I love you all more than words could say. I'd welcome all the people to come to my program in the sky and we'd all have a ball and there wouldn't be any need for any security and all the mikes would work but actually, I wouldn't need a mike because I've got a pretty loud voice.

I'd be happy to welcome all of my fiercest critics and I wouldn't condemn them one little bit for saying anything bad about me because I've had to take a lot of critisism over the eons and I think my shoulders are broad enough to take it. After all, I deserve any and all the critisism I get and I don't just listen to the good things that people say about me - the bad things are just as important to me and I will always have an understanding ear for anything which is said to me, both praise and critisism.

Perhaps we'll meet up someday and then I hope I can show you in my small way, that I'm not the ogre that some people believe me to be but am actually a very approachable guy. I'll always accept you just as you are and it would be my dearest wish that you realise that I've always loved you and always will, now and forever.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 00:21:27 (EST)
From: stark raving
Email: None
To: God
Subject: Hail
Message:
Great one David.

In the hindu religion you would have surely shown
by that post that you have successfully 'Identified with the
Divine' and you ARE that god and you ARE realilzed.

Channeling 'the divine', you have left, no, shed the illusion
and become that that you are. That that is. Kieth take note.

This is as easy as it is.
Dear Bobby, see how the eastern approach is without the
essential element of accountability?
They recommend that your job is to assume the mantle
of living godhead.
If that was a reasonable target, the evidence would
be showing somewhere.
They are leading us to a burdensome life effort while
we miss out on living without that burden.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 13:57:12 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: God
Subject: My Letter to God
Message:
Dear God,
I've got a few questions I need answered. You seem approachable, kind, and loving, so what's up with this PMS crap? And how about cellulite? Do you own stock in some liposuction company? And wrinkles and age spots. Come on, what gives?

And then there's my relatives--puleeze! Did you really think I needed all that drama which turned into farce and satire in the later years. (Oh goody, the holidays are almost here--more material for the play).

Or how 'bout my goth kids who worship Satan? I told them to cut it out, but you know how teenagers are.

I read a thread here which reported that we could live forever if we didn't have sex, but as Mike pointed out, who would want to? What's with all this paradox shit? Sure, it makes life kind of interesting, but it also makes me think you've either got a strange sense of humor or you're sadistic. No offense, really. I mean, I'm relatively happy and enjoy sunsets and dogs and children (and I don't even have to poke my eyes out to do it), but sometimes I question your motivation. I told my therapist that I thought your were trying to make me crazy, and she just laughed and gave me more pills.

I've been meaning to ask you these questions, but I'm losing my memory and my eyesight is failing. I just hope I remember to check back to catch your answers.

Fondly,
eb
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 14:01:08 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: God
Subject: P.S.
Message:
And God,
I know it's my own damn fault I'm falling apart; all that f...ing like a rabbit. What did I expect anyway?
With humility (and a smile on my face),
eb
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 14:29:22 (EST)
From: the omnishunt one
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Dear Rabbit
Message:
You just can't help bragging about all the great sex you've had in your life can you now eb?

But you have hit upon the only real drawback to being the Almighty. Where am I gonna find a mate?
I just can't get off on having sex with something I created. I mean, jeez, talk about perverted!
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 15:13:10 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: the omnishunt one
Subject: You poor, poor thing...
Message:
I never thought of it that way. But then, I guess I thought you were beyond beyond. I apologize for my rabbit-like behaviour. It's true: I brag way too much about something that really wasn't all that great. Well, not all of it anyway.

Frankly, I just wanted babies. Now I'm waiting for grandbabies. Holding babies causes me to feel one with the universe. Kind of like a meditation.

eb
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 20:29:52 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: My Letter to God
Message:
Say the big g's got a serious mental health problem, lost the plot after a couple of billion years, can you imagine the problems trying to find a therapist?

Think you should show more compassion Eb, must be a lonely position to be in.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 00:44:03 (EST)
From: Heaven.org
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: I'm here Angel!
Message:
My how we forget.
I remember when you would be sad and I held you.
Things went wrong and I helped you get through them.
You were so sweet and innocent and very happy.
At night and at nap time I would take you and rock you
in a beautful feeling.
You had the most wonderful exuberance.
I am sorry the adults were so dense.
But you had your friends and in your brilliance you had
the companionship of your friends in your magic world.
It is that same magic world and I am still in love with you.
It is really the chance to love.
You have only to try to love everyone, yourself, and your
old friend ME!
I cheer all your moments of enjoyment of life.
(Including those unmentionables!)
If you take the chance to open your heart to me
right now you will know I am there for real.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 13:09:52 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Heaven.org
Subject: I had almost given up hope...
Message:
My heart opened and I felt your presence.
Please forgive the forgetfulness -
(damn meds).
But seriously,
I do want to thank you for home, family, health, and prosperity. And for reminding me about how much I love you.
eb
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Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 22:49:53 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I told you so!
Message:
Hate to brag but this is, after all, the home of the mind and ego, isn't it? I predicted that Maharaji would coin a new bit of premie bubblespeak yesterday. Well, here's what one premie reports:

'Precious feeling

'If I should ever lose sight of you, please open my eyes again.'

In Rome, Italy the attention and care for the set-up and preparations were lovingly applied in every way possible. There were poinsettias and greenery beneath the video screen, and pretty red wrappings around any cassette or CD bought, this accented the aura of celebration each person brought to the event.

The sound reception was fantastic. Many people were laughing or teary eyed, and every one was paying so much careful attention to each word Maharaji spoke. So many fine words! 'The big 'K' for the big 'L', Knowledge and Life. 'Happy new breath!'

Ah, but for it to go on and on! Yet the hour was soon up, as well as most of the people, all with a smile and a sweet, precious feeling to take away. It was an hour we all had in common for that space of time: sharing the joy in the presence of Maharaji, and enjoying his wit and wisdom. Something to remember, yes, and something to appreciate. Satellite events like this may not happen every day, but the 'being there' present we have with Knowledge is!'

(emphasis mine).
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 10:29:18 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: See? Here's another one
Message:
'Happy new breath

A report by John Carpenter

Just after the link had closed, I was asked on the clear-com line to find out if there was any immediate feedback from Nick, the local event manager. With a broad smile on his face he told me to tell them that everyone in Plymouth had thoroughly enjoyed themselves. So I reported back: 'Of the 210 people at the event, we estimate that all of them enjoyed themselves.'

'Are you sure, Plymouth?' asked a voice with a smile in it.

I replied 'Sorry London, we don't have the technology to verify that, yet.'

I was wrong, of course.

Happy new breath.'
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:31:58 (EST)
From: nitpicker
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: See? Here's another one
Message:
I noticed that too, Jim. This Joker gets everywhere except he's about as funny as any other of the collective - i.e. not.
I read a few of the other reports and found them less pretentious but quite revealing of the consciousness of those who have been assimilated.
Brian Gaudet says that ' the event was much more exciting than a pre-recorded video'
Does this mean that Brian finds the pre-recorded videos less than exciting? I think the WPC should be issued a bongo alert.
Yvonne Kelly from Dublin may have been reporting the wrong event 'Everyone gave a big cheer when Ireland was listed at the end.' Are you sure it was not the Eurovision Song Contest Yvonne? Probably similar music anyway. Just joking - apart from the music comment.
Thanks for passing on the amazing, useful and fascinating information that M communicated to you
'I was deeply touched by Maharaji saying how important it is that I have life'
Not a lot of people know that.

Marilyn Scott seems to be another Vicki. I am sure these folk are on some kind of drugs. Oh, I forgot, it is the blissful state that one enters on becoming a premie.
She sees 'the Knowledge Hall sparkling like a jewel', 'lovely lampposts',
'headlights moving slowly, making their way through the night' ( if that's not magic I don't know what is), and she's a poet and she knows it when she says 'The sounds of the bush at night so silent yet so noisy, the chorus of cicadas.'
and on and on
The state of mind of these premies is so off the rails I have trouble understanding what they are talking about most of the time ( well I am in my mind and proud of it ) for instance what does she mean by
'Such a unique situation, familiar faces, yet not an over familiarity' - sounds a bit Freudian to me.
It then turns into a mix between an orgy and a horror scene when apparantly she, and a few others have a cardiac arrest ('My heart is feeling stiller...')but are brought back to life when M appears on the screen...'The hearts are beginning to dance, I can feel them. You can feel hearts when they dance. (I'll take your word for it Marilyn)The whisperings still continue, getting softer and softer' - spooky.
By now the skank weed has fully kicked in...
'The announcer arrives on the screen, the audience cheers and then roars with laughter. It appears humorous, everyone laughs again. It may not have been intended to be humorous but we all seem to find it deliciously funny as we roared with laughter again.'
Eventually Marilyn makes her way 'through the gentle night, the aroma of love' .
In case anyone was worried about the gory heart scene all was well in the end as she reassures us
that on her return home..
'My heart and I are one. I sit inside myself so full'

Here's sitting inside myself so full ( maybe the new hot phrase?)

The Nitpicker.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:46:34 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: nitpicker
Subject: Sounds like a horror film
Message:
nit: You were right! It DOES sound like a good B-movie horro flick. Dancing hearts???? Can you picture this? When she says her heart and her are one, my answer has to be a really profound 'DUH!' Unless it's dancing around the auditorium, by itself, your heart is in your chest.... I hope!
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 20:39:25 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: nitpicker
Subject: See? Here's another one
Message:
Nitpicker you have real (sorry Scott) style.

Wicked post.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 19:13:31 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Happy new breath! Happy new br
Message:
And here's ANOTHER one:

'Thank you Maharaji again and again for this opportunity.

Thank you again and again for what you have given me and what you tirelessly continue to give me.

May it indeed be 'Happy New Breath!''

(This is from the Greek report on the broadcast.)
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Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 22:47:04 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The personality trick
Message:
Premies gush on about M's divine personality, his sense of humour and all that. As it once was for us, his personality's some proof for them of his divinity. But this is a trick.

Everyone has a personality. Some are humourous, some serious, some assertive, some not. No matter what Maharaji's personality is, people who are trained to worship him would find ways of believing it 'perfect' and 'divine'. Look at his brother, Satpal (who now parades as the 'true' master after their father). He's not at all as cute as Maharaji. So? No problem. His devotees see him as a more authoritative leader kind of guy. It's really that simple.

Look around. Look at other cults. Some have classic cult-leader personalities (Jim Jones perhaps. David Koresh) but some have particularly 'unique' leaders. Who'd have thought that a Mr. Rodgers kind of weenie like Marshall Applewhite could lead a bunch of premies, er I mean whatever-they-were to their untimely deaths?

No, when premies enjoy Maharaji's personality they should ask themselves if it's not the case that they'd be enjoying ANYONE'S personality who'd wrangled so much supremacy over their hearts and minds.

Kim Il Jung, anyone?
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Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 21:40:56 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'Would you have my baby?'
Message:
I'm sorry. I certainly don't mean to be crude or anything, but I have to wonder a bit. Remember when years ago Mahatma Gurucharanand and others would carry on about how we're all 'gopis' (read 'groupies') for the masterful, Alpha-infinto Male of all Males, the Lord in human form, Maharaji? Even then I squirmed a bit. 'Shit,' I thought ' does this mean I really will never get laid?'

Anyway, what's going on with these premies? Here's Stephen Goldberg from Montreal:

At times it felt like I was at a live event but when he talked about the experience of being with him and looking into his eyes you knew that there is that difference that only his presence can bring.

But that's just at random. Go ahead, read all the reports from this amazing historic event yesterday. They're all like that.

Here's a question they left off the Initiator Applicant Questionnaire:

'(1)If you were guarding the residence one night and Maharaji came out to talk with you, would you leave your post if he asked you to?

(2) If he then asked you to have sex with him, would you?'
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 02:15:37 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ask Laurie. Please read Jim.
Message:
A little chicken would probably look good on you. Just remember though: you'll have to represent a lot of criminals between now and 75 when you retire. You'll be 62 by the time your son hits university. You'll still have to toss a ball at 74 with your grandchildren.

Someone just gave me a document which states that I can get my donation money back if it was deducted from credit cards. Do you think I have grounds. It's enough for a new car. Five years ago, I bought over $4 000 in videos for the community in addition to my donations.
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 11:20:19 (EST)
From: bill cliton
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'Would you have my baby?'
Message:
If he then asked you to have sex with him, would you?'
Exactly how do you define sex?

(Mischievous eb)
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:26:11 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Bwah, ha ha ha ha ha
Message:
eb: You are really quick on the comedy draw... LOL LOL
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Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:31:50 (EST)
From: Laughing makes you live
Email: None
To: EB
Subject: longer..thanks EB!! (nt)
Message:
nt
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