Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 32 | |
From: Dec 10, 1998 |
To: Dec 22, 1998 |
Page: 3 Of: 5 |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 20:37:42 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Communist re-education camp Message: Hey guys! Remember Mahabir, Maharaji's longtime pet and servant? Here's his 'Expression' on ELK. Tell me this guy isn't just spouting the safe party line. He sounds like a hostage. Like Patty Hearst or maybe the captain of that American ship that got captured by the North Koreans. What was it called? The U.S.S. Pueblo? Don't worry, Mahabir! We're coming to get you, buddy! Hang in, there. Meanwhile, don't drink the water. Especially any that he's stuck his foot in. (No, there's nothnig special about it. It's just kind of gross, don't you think?) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 20:39:18 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Oops! I forgot the quote Message: Here's Mahabir's cry for help: Mahabir Singh Los Angeles, USA What a wonderful opportunity I feel very thankful to my teacher for everything he has been giving me, showing me and teaching me. Since I met him, I have been enjoying my life with the gift of Knowledge and am looking forward to enjoying it until the last moment of my life. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 17:00:16 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Deep. Message: He sounds like he's accepting an award, or maybe practicing an acceptance speech for one, best premie of the month or something. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 18:00:01 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hanuman Message: Jim: Wasn't Mahabir supposed to be the reincarnation of Hanuman (sic)? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 00:26:30 (EST)
From: dv Email: None To: Mike Subject: Hanuman Message: I thought it was Bihare Singh! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 02:46:49 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: dv Subject: Hanuman Message: Same rumor here, dv! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 09:59:17 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: dv Subject: Hanuman Message: dv: You might be right. I thought Mahabir was the guy with the 'cheesy' (sorry, Sir D) long mustache that was always at the 'master's' side back in the very early days. If it is, then he was the one that was 'originally' associated with Hanuman. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 10:56:50 (EST)
From: a manmut Email: None To: Mike Subject: Hanuman Message: You are confusing Mahabir with Behari Singh. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 12:17:26 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: a manmut Subject: Hanuman Message: Then I stand (sit) corrected.... Thanks! Now, who the heck is mahabir???? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 13:44:40 (EST)
From: a manmut Email: None To: Mike Subject: Hanuman Message: Mahabir is a long term PAM. I think he may have been with prem's father. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 17:35:20 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: a manmut Subject: Hanuman/Behari Message: Behari Singh was kind of M's valet when M was younger, but I think Behari may have split with Mata Ji for awhile, but later came back. I know he showed up in Miami when I was there and Maharaji refused to see him. It was kind of awkward and I got this East Indian family in Miami, the Chaterjees (sp?), to give Behari a place to stay. Wasn't Hanuman a monkey? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 21:36:16 (EST)
From: a manmut Email: None To: JW Subject: Hanuman/Behari Message: Yes Hanuman was a monkey, in fact he was a monkey god who with his flock were devotees of Ram. Great stuff is the Ramayana. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 22:17:57 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: a manmut Subject: Well, don't forget Message: Yes Hanuman was a monkey, in fact he was a monkey god who with his flock were devotees of Ram. Great stuff is the Ramayana. 'I know that the Ramayana obviously is not wrong. It is right...' -- the original 'no-concept man', Guru Maharaj Ji, Philadelphia, 1978. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 03:33:41 (EST)
From: a manmut Email: None To: Jim Subject: Well, don't forget Message: Do you remember the one that prem said that goes something like: 'If the Ramayana is wrong then god is wrong, if god is wrong then guru maharaj ji is wrong. Now that cannot be'. His is a very simple philosophy. He is right and everybody that doesn't blindly follow him is wrong. Aaaah the simplicity of life. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 13:22:56 (EST)
From: srb Email: None To: Everyone Subject: So now the excuse is.......... Message: WE PROCRASTINATE!!!!! The latest reason we all haven't gotten 'that experience' is we procrastinate according to the sattelite from god It is always the premies fault. It is always this thingee that only rawat is somehow mastered and fthe reasons ahve changed as the years have gone on. But now, haveing run out of so many words to explain our lack of rising to HIS level, we are in the -P- section of the dictionary. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 13:36:02 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: srb Subject: So now the excuse is.......... Message: srb: You're right, of course. When we get to 'z,' it'll be because we were ALL 'zulu' warriors in our past lifetime and, thus, are not worthy of the experience...... Can't wait! he he he ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 21:37:26 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Mike and all Subject: So now the excuse is.......... Message: I deleted the post from Hamzen that followed this because of something that looked like a threat. Unfortunately, deleting the post results in deleting all the answers to the post. I am not trying to censor you guys, honest - you're free to post everything else again (except the implied threat). Thanks, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 21:44:25 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: I'm with you here, Katie Message: Of course if it had been MY implied threat I'd be kicking up a storm. But it's not. It's only Hamzen's. So fuck 'im. He's got to learn one of these days anyway. Might as well be now. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 22:28:51 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Well thanks, Jim Message: Actually, Jim, if YOU hadn't said that you thought the post should be deleted, I would have left it for Brian to look at. But I figured your approval was OK. I also knew that when Brian gets home from driving cranky holiday shoppers (etc.) around, he was probably not going to want to deal with this. So thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 22:37:36 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Me hypocrite! Message: I have to laugh. I explain why I think it's a bad idea to have ambiguous posts (arguably readable as threats) on the board only minutes after I posted 'I'd like to harm Maharaji'. What is this? Am I nuts or something? Oh Maharaji, please, Lord, take me home! Katie, what do you think about MY post? I mean I know the post is okay but what about a subject line like that? Perhaps you should change it to 'Clinton holds on' or something. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 00:07:27 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Me hypocrite! Message: I guess I'd just have to refer people to Orlando's definition of 'harm'. That gives you a lot of latitude there, Jim. But if you want me to change the title, I will :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 00:12:19 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Me hypocrite! Message: Naw, leave it. I was just struck by the timing of it all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 14:26:41 (EST)
From: ham Email: None To: Jim Subject: I'm bemused by you too, Jim Message: 'He's got to learn one of these days anyway.' Sorry Jim, you've completely lost me here, care to explain, or are you just pissing around? By the way I think that thread you started re-premie buzzwords is an excellent concept, also praying for you that Nitpicker hangs around for a while, will save you a lot of time over at the moose site. Lastly I've got to pull you up about a small comment you made in one of your posts recently. You were talking about if you had a kid who was a mental retard you'd be happy for them having much less than if the kid was normal. This is not the first comment you've made re the same topic. If someone is classed as having a learning disability it means one thing and one thing only. Their IQ is classed as <70. This does not mean that they don't have feelings the same as anyone else, it just means they would have problems analysing and verbally describing those feelings, especially in an environment where they are classed as 'mental retards'. Having had numerous discussions with people who are learning disabled, I know the pain they feel VERY strongly about being labelled in this way, for some being labelled as anything at all is painful. They have just as much right to a 'reasonable' life as anyone else. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 19:07:15 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: ham Subject: Uh oh! Time for the emoticons Message: Ham, I was kidding when I said 'but it's only Hamzen' or whatever I said. THAT was just nothing. A joke? I guess that's what you'd have to call it. I WASN'T kidding, though, when I advised cutting the post. What you said was conditional enough that anyone SHOULD be able to relegate it to the pile of daydreams no one takes seriously or ever intends to act on. But, in my opinion, it came just a little close to the real thing -- a bona fide threat. Premies aren't good thinkers, we know, and I'd hate to see some of us incite or provoke anything weird from some crazy premie of which there must still be a handful. I have to mention, of course, the added factor that you're posting anonymously. Would you feel comfortable saying the same thing otherwise? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 21:33:37 (EST)
From: ham Email: None To: Jim Subject: Uh oh! Time for the emoticons Message: Jim, even if you were being real it wouldn't have bothered me, I just wasn't getting the point you were making. Actually I like your sparky stuff even when it's in response to my posts, maybe even more so. HHmmm, that is a little worrying. Time to see my analyst, I think. Du you really think that a post like mine could incite a premie to seek revenge on other exes or the site itself? At me maybe for doing the post. I'll have a think about this. Say you are right, how would one know the acceptable boundaries to posting, especially since a premie who'd lost the plot would be seriously irrational. That is what strikes me as courageous verging on foolhardy about your openness, especially since you quite often squeeze premies pretty hard. You would be very easy to find. Doesn't that worry you? That's without discussing the issue of self-censorship, especially re the topic area here. Re anonymity, how do you know that it isn't my name? Seriously though, I'm very close to changing by deed-poll to that very moniker. Re comfortable, probably not. But that is only one of degree. Any half serious hacker could track me down, easy peasy. Although that is reduced because of the luddite tendencies of the premie community, it only takes one to tango. That's apart from the fact that I've already given enough info out on this site for anyone to be closing in, well aware of both these options, but sometimes in life you have to take somekind of stance, risk taking is a danger, but acceptable/responsible risk-taking is what life is all about, no? (ot)I'm almost ready for another maturana response based on your last post re, you up for it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 22:28:36 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: ham Subject: Uh oh! Time for the emoticons Message: Ham, I think you ARE Maturana. How's 'bout that? You're right that this is all a matter of degree and that any premie bent on defending the Hamster could be incited by just about anything. They're hardly reasonable so what's the big deal about keeping within reasonable limits taunting them? That's a good question and my answer's not great. I just think that it's cool for us to be SO provocative but not more. 'SO', as we remember from our k session, is both ineffable AND secret of all secrets to boot. Sorry I can't answer you further. I can add, though, that besides starting a little bitty jihad, conditional expressions like yours could be misconstrued by premies and blabbed on about to unforgivable lengths. A good example is what CD and Mili did once. Chris had been particularly loathsome in avoiding the pith and substance of someone's question. I commented that his answer was akin to someone commenting on the nazis by saying nothing more than that they had good beer gardens (which, I guess, they didn't). Trivial and completely beside the point. Mili and Chris then went on this long, long rag about how I'd compared Maharaji to Hitler and had -- get this -- advocated impounding all the premies in concentration camps and gassing them! But, you say, wasn't I more than happy to point out their idiocy? Wasn't it fun and even fruitful in further dicsrediting their apologist shit? To which I say, yes it was. So what's the problem you say? Well, I think that the physical threat thing unnecessarily brings that soup too quickly to a boil. Who needs it? And, in the end, it IS true that those of us posting by our real names bear some general risk of fallout for our collective action. I'm not so sure it'd be all that easy to find your name. It's sure a lot easier to find mine. And that's that about that. As for Maturana, I'll start a thread with an email a friend of mine sent. (He said I could). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 13:37:46 (EST)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Katie Subject: Bemused & angry Message: I'm completely bemused, I can't see for the life of me how that post could be perceived as threatening. I'm also, a bit angry about this, so apologies if I call you Constable Katie for a while, and since even you say 'looked like a threat' rather than an 'actual threat', couldn't you have asked for clarification? Is there any way of retrieving the post to check I'm not mis-remembering? I don't use a wp and I'm buggered if I'm gonna start saving every post I put up. This next point is not having a pop, but are you sure there isn't some unconscious motivation, at least partly from your end? Hard to imagine, but then I wondered how you felt about me getting pissed with Orlando? I will be posting it again, as close as I can remember, the whole post, not edited, and I hope you will have the good grace to at least leave it up for a day for responses/discussion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 13:57:32 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: hamzen Subject: response to Hamzen Message: Dear Hamzen - My apologies - I have to make a judgement call on these things, and everyone may not always agree with me. Also, I don't have the technical expertise to bring the post back. Here's what happened: A premie (I think) posted a complaint about it, so I left a note for Brian to look at it when he got home from work. Then Jim gave his opinion that it should be stricken. I trust Jim's opinion on these things (he IS a lawyer, after all), so I deleted it, and of course, all these replies went with it. I hope you understand that there was NO ulterior or personal motivation on my part. Maybe Jim would like to comment on this. I'm sorry that it upset you, honestly. Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 15:01:57 (EST)
From: ham Email: None To: Katie Subject: response to Hamzen Message: Thanks for your response Katie. Couple of comments though. Complaint from a premie, I think, is a complete irrelevance, in fact it would get me lookingv looking for the positives in a post that's got to them under their skin.. Re Jim's post, I thought, and this was confirmed by a discussion with someone else who visits this site, that he was being ironic and having a pop at you for the self-censorship HE has to make to fit into the site 'code'. Then tonight re-reading his response to himself I'm not so sure. But I also think you could have asked me for clarification first, otherwise it just makes us look like a civilized version of the pravda practice used elsewhere. Just to clarify, from my own position, I'm a 98% pacifist who could only imagine violence to another human being if (1) someone was being threatened physically, (2) I was in a relationship where I was receiving constant verbal abuse and I blew, (3) I could get my hands on certain evil politicians etc. When Thatcher was blown up by the IRA, I was initially sorry she didn't die. I personally do not class smiley as evil, in any way the same as people such as the divine Mrs T, Polpot, Pinochet, Reagan, the list is endless. Having said that I don't think he's that far below them in a nastiness league table, because of all the suicides and mental illness he has induced, just that he would need to work at it to get promotion to the premier league. Bearing all this in mind, (1) what would be the point in delivering a threat I wasn't going to follow up, (2) I'm well aware of the code here of no threats. What would be the point in wasting my time and yours on a post that was going to be deleted. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 18:19:10 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: ham Subject: response to Hamzen Message: Hi again, Hamzen - You didn't get to see Jim's complete response to your post (not sure if your friend did either) because responses to a post get deleted when a post gets deleted. He did say that he thought the post should be stricken. Jim has GOTTEN (not made) more threats on here than anyone else, so he has a good idea of what is or isn't a threat - plus I trust him. We don't ask for people's clarification when deleting threats against Jim or others (even Maharaji) - we just delete them. My personal opinion is that I would prefer not to post on a site that has references to assassinating Maharaji - even if they are fantasies, joking, hyperbole, etc. Jim has actually warned people about this in the past when we used to use Usenet (and couldn't remove posts). I know that your post was meant as a joke, but some people might not see it that way. Regards, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 19:05:34 (EST)
From: ham Email: None To: Katie Subject: response to Katie Message: Re Jim's comments, I take your point, obviously we both misread them. Re threats, although completely anti-censorship of any kind, I can understand why you might take that stance, and doesn't get me THAT heated, but I just couldn't see how that post could be perceived in any way shape or form as a threat. It was so obviously a joke, I was making a serious point as well though. Although I don't see him as evil as polpot etc, he has been responsible for, implicated in, a large number of suicides and even more mental illness in his followers and their families, it's not that fanciful to suggest what COULD happen. And last but not least, you did say it had been cut because of an implied threat, not for any other reason. I also know that this has in no way altered my huge respect for you. Thankfully we can have respect here without expecting perfecktion! By the way, if you are the constable of the site you're a lot better mannered than any I've met in the non-virtual world! hug from ham Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 13:57:08 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Hamzen Subject: D is for Deleted Post Message: Hamzen - Your post was deleted by Katie. She takes on the responsibility of protecting the forum for people to use, and as far as I'm concerned the issue was settled when she decided to delete it. You then re-posted the deleted post. You do not decide how the forum will be used, only whether or not to use it in accordance with the rules - and the reasons underlying them. This forum is not here to incite violence against Maharaji or anyone else. Don't do it again. If you have a problem with this, email me or Katie. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 22:25:18 (EST)
From: Someone Email: None To: ham Subject: pulls out a shooter Message: and I won't recall my exact response , though I did use a wp Premies get pissed, ex-premies get pissed, and rules?, fuck em. Not that I am saying you made a direct threat against M, no, you were making a point, and besides it wasn't you in your imagination that 'blows him away'.Sorry, I will file your comment away with comments about his dick size. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 01:59:55 (EST)
From: Mr. NSA Email: None To: Someone Subject: posting annonomously Message: I'm posting anonomously here since I don't want to reveal too much about the persona that I usually post as because there are premies that might make the connection to my true identity which I keep secret via the content here. I also post above as Unnamed with the same subject. Again, Brian might be the real expert here, but what I know the only way that premies or anyone else on this site can possibly determine your identity is if you reveal too many specific details about yourself. And maybe some ultra hacker can correct me, but people with no physical access to the server that this site is running on or no access to the data being posted to the forum cannot determine your IP address unless they have phenomenal access to extremely sosphicated equipment. I suppose that the NSA could easily track people down, but that is a different story. Understand that you are not posting via your internet email application. You are posting via your browser. You might verify that your browser does not reveal your Email address. Most browsers (IE for sure and probably Netscape Navigator) do not reveal this. However, I've read that some might. One item of information that I believe comes to this site might be what website you came from (maybe even a history of sites.) So, if you don't want them to know that you just came from www.over_sexed.com you might want to shut down your browser first. Finally, with a search warrant some information could be found out about you. But, again, the forum clearly specifies that illegal activities like threats are not allowed. And, the moderators of the forum do a pretty good job at policing the forum. Unless someone can show that a crime has taken place it is difficult to get such a search warrant. But, if you are President of the United States you can bet that one the day you take office a Special Prosecutor will be appointed to find out everything you ever did or were going to do or are about to do. Lastly, there are people here who do have the courage to reveal their entire true identity. My utmost respect goes to all of them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 13:06:17 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Someone Subject: pulls out a shooter Message: and I won't recall my exact response , though I did use a wp Premies get pissed, ex-premies get pissed, and rules?, fuck em. Not that I am saying you made a direct threat against M, no, you were making a point, and besides it wasn't you in your imagination that 'blows him away'.Sorry, I will file your comment away with comments about his dick size. So who the fuck are YOU? Keeping a file on all the 'bad' ex's who insult your Lard? Ohhhhhhhhhhh scary!!!!! Your not so subtle attemps at intimidation are transparent, asshole. Looks like you made the ''hit'' list, Ham. Welcome aboard! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 13:43:53 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: pulls out a shooter Message: So Katie, how do you interpret Someone pulls out a shooter, who is also keeping a file on comments? I'd say it's time for ''Someone'' to go ''bye-bye.'' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 13:57:53 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: gerry Subject: Someone Message: Gerry, This person, whoever they are, can read here, and keep a file of comments, even if blocked from posting. All I can do is delete the post - do you think it's threatening? You're welcome to refer the matter to Brian (brian@ex-premie.org). Regards, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 14:07:07 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: Someone Message: I think perhaps we should let it stand as a testimony to the underhanded and cowardly tactics of the lock step cult mind set. I was hoping that this jerk could be prevented from reading and posting, but I guess that's not possible. I do think he was trying to be threatening while being oblique enough to not get banned. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 14:26:57 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: Someone, the coward Message: Katie, Let's put it this way: Suppose I posted this message that said: From Gerry subject I have a gun message and I'm keeping a record of the people who say nasty things about my guru. I think the message is pretty clear. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 15:07:09 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: gerry Subject: Someone, the coward Message: Gerry - I'll send you some e-mail. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 19:06:06 (EST)
From: ham Email: None To: Katie Subject: Katie/Brian/Gerry Message: Thanks Gerry, think it's only the second club of a non-sporting variety I've ever been in, honoured indeed, now what was that first one, oh god yeah, the boredom at remembering it! Katie/Gerry, I personally HATE all censorship in any way shape or form, see it as a CRUCIAL issue, fundamental, especially here for the obvious topic reasons. On a general level think that once any censorship is happening you're on a slippery slope. I vote that someone's post should stand, ANY post. Also, it was addressed to me. I also feel that someone's response, and curmudgeonly apology for mis-reading my original post vindicates me re-posting, apart from me taking a stance against ANY censorship. Sorry Brian, Katie, was fully entitled to do what she wants, this is her/your site, but also I would have kept re-posting anyway, whatever the outcome because I think she jumped the gun, and made what wasn't a fully informed decision. Brian, to quote that ole rock and roll star big willie shakespear, 'to thine own self be true and it shall follow as the night the day, though canst not then be false to any man'. I'll also e-mail you with some background re my stance although I'd prefer to do it here, for similar reasons to Scott's transparency post elsewhere, not just out to create a ruckus and wind people up, well in this instance anyway! The main reason I hung around here in the first place was that it seemed to be a rare place on this planet where honesty ruled, was seen as crucial, because lets be honest here, apart from the personal histories , the sense of a 'real' community, the topic area is unbelievably boring. Ps to Gerry,just been to another nlp short evening on presentation which produced some interesting changes of state, me boss came too,she's also absorbed her three day nlp leadership course, you still up for an nlp thread? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 01:24:11 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: ham Subject: Katie/Brian Message: Dear Hamzen - As I said in my e-mail to you earlier, I prefer not to discuss the forum ON the forum. But since you posted this response on the forum, I am responding likewise. You wrote: I also feel that someone's response, and curmudgeonly apology for mis-reading my original post vindicates me re-posting, apart from me taking a stance against ANY censorship. Sorry Brian, Katie, was fully entitled to do what she wants, this is her/your site, but also I would have kept re-posting anyway, whatever the outcome because I think she jumped the gun, and made what wasn't a fully informed decision. I want to address a couple of points here. First, Brian and I are not trying to 'censor' the site. We've set up a few rules for people to follow in posting, and we delete posts that we don't feel follow those rules, using our best judgement. We don't put it up for discussion. As far as my decision being 'fully informed' - the only person that I EVER check with regarding a question about whether a post should be deleted or not is Brian. Also, I don't think it's ever 'vindicated' to repost a deleted post, unless it's deleted by accident. After thinking about it for a day (and talking to Brian), I realized that I should have deleted your post the second time you posted it, and I should have blocked you if you kept on re-posting it. That's what I would do (and have done) to anyone repeatedly posting statements like you made on here. However, I am human, I was tired, and I just dropped the ball (onto Brian's head). Furthermore, if I didn't feel a sense of responsibility for maintaining and protecting the forum, I would NEVER delete anyone's posts, because I get so much shit for doing it. I don't enjoy doing it, and I don't enjoy getting harassed for it. I'd prefer just to be able to post like everyone else, and I'm pretty sure Brian would too. I know you probably won't like this post, but I am trying to be honest with you about what I think and how I feel. I hope you can accept it. Regards from Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 04:35:49 (EST)
From: ham Email: None To: Katie Subject: Katie/Brian Message: Katie, first off I HATE the thought of you feeling harassed. So massive apologies if my responses have caused you to feel that, which I'm assuming is the case here. I have absolutely no problems with your post here, because as usual you're showing your integrity and civility and clarifying your position. After all can you imagine how a discussion over on the elk site, completely in the open like this, could have even started. We would be seeing a completely blank page. That is also why I re-posted, praying that you would allow a discussion of the issues to take place. It shows to anyone watching: (1) how committed we all are to our positions here (2) just what levels of honesty rationality and fair play we try to operate under, all conditions noticeably absent elsewhere, not just around mr wonderful but across the whole of the planet. My position re editing posts, calling it censorship, might have been taken as offensive and in this situation OTT, but I do think that being completely open about this gives us an integrity that I feel would be compromised otherwise. Since the discussion has happened, I have no problems at all with the z for post being deleted,but I do have to say that if you had deleted the re-posting immediately, almost for definite I would have had to leave the site because it would have compromised my basic bottom line principles. That would have been a rational not an emotional decision. Such a situation would have been very sad for me because finding this site, the integrity, the rationality and the heart of the people here, has been incredibly life affirming. Apologies again for the grief caused, ironically over a post that was not that important! Katie, big big BIG hugs to you and Brian. It might not appear so, but I REALLY appreciate the work you do here, not least the sheer time consumption involved. Luv, from the big pain, ham the sheesh! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 10:47:20 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: ham Subject: Katie/Brian Message: dear Ham - Thank you for understanding my and Brian's position, and the fact that we are not trying to censor people - I appreciate it. If I HAD deleted the re-posting immediately (I usually don't get to these thing 'immediately'), I would have tried to explain it in the same way, and I hope you would have understood (and stuck around). Take care, Katie P.S. I like the name 'Ham the Sheesh' or HamSheesh (you may be sorry you ever made it up). I should give credit to Brian here for introducing the word 'sheesh' to the site. It's quite useful. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 10:59:59 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Everything BUT Message: Katie, I agree with all you say and think about this subject EXCEPT your aversion to discussing the forum on the forum. That, to me, makes no sense whatsoever. After all, it's not as if the forum represents some sort of sales material or something. This is tthe only place one can say something in the open and elicit whatever support or criticism people feel in reply. This IS the 'open'. It's the only place one can have a 'straw poll' about an issue, etc. etc. This point is just so obvious, I'm surprised you're arguing otherwise. I would never want to have no choice but to recommend something privately here. That IS a sometimes preferable or even essential route but I'm damn glad it's not the only one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 13:53:28 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Jim Subject: Everything BUT Message: This is the only place one can say something in the open and elicit whatever support or criticism people feel in reply. People's ability to say something in this 'open' is dependant on their having taken on the responsibility for what results from having said it. Censorship, that nasty word, occurs in a free forum when something's are chosen with no self-censorship occurring on the part of the poster - just as it occurs in any free society where people choose to use their 'freedom' to advocate acts of violence be committed against someone they personally disapprove of. This is a Catcher In The Rye world, where bongos act on irresponsible words disguised as 'fantasy'. And one where people who maintain a 'free forum' operate under the restrictions imposed both by the media and by laws and social conventions governing what is a responsible something to post publicly. We have served up over 70,000 messages read so far in December. Most of them to lurkers or participants. Some to EV personnel monitoring the forum for legal weaknesses which can be exploited to shut this forum down. The flood of people who have yet to cross the line from lurker to poster are well advised to pick their words responsibly, or be prepared to see them disappear from the forum. Where people feel no need to self-censor, we censor for them. Where their 'principles' guide them into posting totally irresponsible words, we responsibly assert control to see that we don't host those words on this site. To keep this forum in place, offensive posts are deleted. Period. Anyone who feels that their web browser offers them veto power over the deleting of a post that's been deemed a threat to the forum will find a block placed on their originating IP and their perceived 'responsibility-free right' to post whatever they want come to a screeching halt. Katie is sensitive to people's feelings far more than I am. She will step around their feelings to avoid hurting them. I have seen people take that as a sign of weakness and PUSH her aside as they re-assert their 'principles'. That is not going to happen. I try to be direct with people, and sometimes that involves being blunt. I don't just speak to the people who participate in the forum, but also to those who lurk or probe for weakness. This forum was in place when we all found it. It will be in place tomorrow too because of the effort that she puts in to guard it against the opinions and 'principles' that people express here. That is not open for discussion. There are no ballots handed out at the door to the forum, and there's no ongoing policy poll to participate in. The door IS the ballot. I am completely uninterested in anyone's 'vote' in favor of leaving offensive posts in place until everyone on the planet with web access has gotten to participate in the 'discussion'. And the 'principles' that are enforced here to maintain this forum's existence are not going to waver in the wind according to who happens to be using the forum at any given time. Discuss Maharaji. Katie and I will keep the forum in existence so that can happen, and so that people can benefit from THAT discussion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 20:40:08 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Brian Subject: With all due respect Message: Brian, I think we're talking at cross purposes a bit. I don't disagree with anything you've said here. I'm not talking about the freedom to post threats or anything like that. I'm talking about the freedom to suggest, comment or otherwise discuss the forum on the forum. That's all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 06:10:00 (EST)
From: hamsheesh Email: None To: Brian Subject: Everything BUT Message: Thanks for that VERY explicit take on the underlying rules for this site, rules which I might add are not stated anywhere on the site. I will look around again to make sure I didn't miss them. Before responding on certain key issues your response throws up, there is one further apology I need to make. During my original exchange with Katie I made a statement about continually re-posting the 'z is for' post 'again & again'. THAT is the only comment of mine that I would not be prepared to stand by, with pride, and able to fully justify since the first moment I started posting here. It was a juvenile response. I might also add it is the only comment of mine that I have posted here that did not involve a high level of deliberation and awareness. This is in response to you using a number of key words from my responses to Katie, although you don't make that explicit in your response, which means it is difficult to know which of your comments were directed to me, which to Jim, which to anybody else. One of the KEY criticisms that I constantly receive, outside the site, is that I am too deliberate, abstract, cerebral and detached in almost every single statement I make, this in response to your comments about self-censorship. I am VERY aware of the power of language. Also, and more importantly, I almost didn't respond to your post because I am VERY appreciative of the UNPAID work you do here. Maybe when there are enough people visiting, an optional subscription fee could be brought in. At the present rate of almost logarhythmic increase, that could be very soon. But I feel the issues raised by your post, after sitting on this for a day, are crucial and demand a response. Re censorship. To me censorship is when statements are edited or altered without democratic discussion, self-censorship is when someone alters their real meaning to fit into a code of rules or because they know someone listening will not accept their true position without adding distortion., ie lies. What you are talking about is self-editing, and as stated above I am VERY, IF NOT HYPER aware of the need for this in all communication, not just here. Thankfully Katie allowed the re-posting so that discussion could take place, before deletion, that I would call editing. From your response, if you had been dealing with it in the manner and particulars of your post, that would be censorship, ie no discussion. I'm not just playing with words here, think Jim's point was not only pertinent, but crucial. I advocated NO acts of violence here. Yet you seem to be linking different meanings about the word 'threat' and inter-changing them, as did Katie, and to a lesser extent Jim elsewhere. As I had understood it, and this is the MAJOR reason I have spent as much time here as I have so far, one of the primary approaches here to dealing with the gm problem was to challenge and confront the implications of censorship & self-censorship that are a direct result of the authoritarianism of gm. Your response makes it plain that I was wrong. As I understand it a post that is likely to produce a threat from 'bongos' (your word not mine) will be deleted here without discussion, not just because of a threat to any individual, or because of an incitement to violence but because your inner perception directs you. How the hell am I supposed to know what your views are? Could we amplify and make explicit what those rules are, because from my perception, the sheer existence of this site is enough to imagine irrational responses from unhinged premies. That is before you look at individual posts, nearly all of which amplify that possibility. Why so many fearful lurkers, why are so many of us not using our real names, exactly because of that. The legal and ethical resposibilities re violence, or incitement to violence, bullying even, I fully accept and appreciate. I had taken that as the only rule re the site. 'Katie is sensitive to people's feelings far more than I am. She will step around their feelings to avoid hurting them. I have seen people take that as a sign of weakness and PUSH her aside as they re-assert their 'principles'.' I hope you are not implyinmg that this was the case with me, since you use 'principles', a key word in one of my previous texts!?? I certainly did not try to push or bully, use emotive language or whatever, just calm rational discussion. If anything I have been informed that my response was over-restrained! 'That is not open for discussion. There are no ballots handed out at the door to the forum, and there's no ongoing policy poll to participate in. The door IS the ballot. I am completelyuninterested in anyone's 'vote' in favor of leaving offensive posts in place until everyone on the planet with web access has gotten to participate in the 'discussion'. And the 'principles' that are enforced here to maintain this forum's existence are not going to waver in the wind according to who happens to be using the forum at any given time. Discuss Maharaji. Katie and I will keep the forum in existence so that can happen, and so that people can benefit from THAT discussion.' Thank you for making it explicit that this site is not a democratic forum, I will bear this in mind regarding future posts. I do think, for transparency reasons and in-case any other libertarian ex-es visit this site that these rules should be made explicit at entry. I also strongly suspect that there are people either not posting or posting less than they otherwise would, because of these unwritten rules. Your response also explains to me an earlier post of Jim's which left me in bemusement, scratching my head. This, and the paragraph above are not meant ironically. 'And the 'principles' that are enforced here to maintain this forum's existence are not going to waver in the wind according to who happens to be using the forum at any given time.' If circumstances change re premie/gm responses, your position would stay exactly the same???!!! or if anyone else was to take over the moderators role, their response would be exactly the same???!!! Say, just for arguments sake, I know it's almost 100% unlikely, but say you or Katie were to become premies agin......THIS is why democracy is absolutely crucial, and I maintain that the acceptibility and deference to the notion of authoritarianism inherent in our culture is the bottom line building stone for any crackpot guru, whether that guru is a benign dictator or not. And doesn't gm understand this completely. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 13:28:48 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: hamsheesh Subject: Everything BUT Message: Dear ham - A few comments on your post. I know Brian will probably want to respond more fully later on: 1. We have 2 explicitly stated rules on this site (no threats, and no posting under other people's names). You won't find any other rules anywhere else. We HAVE to be able to interpret these rules, at our discretion, when we delete posts. Furthermore, we also have to have the ability to delete posts that we deem are damaging to the site/forum, even if they don't fall under the 'rules'. Our first priority is protecting the forum so that as many people as possible can use it. Basically, people who use the forum have to accept the fact that Brian and I will use our best judgement when we delete posts (and we delete VERY few posts). I don't delete posts that I simply 'don't like', as some people have charged. We try and run the forum with as little interference as possible, but a certain amount of moderation is necessary in order to keep the forum in existence and/or running smoothly. If this prevents certain people from using the forum, I am sorry. 2. Regarding 'pushing me aside' - I think what Brian meant by that is that you re-posted your post after I deleted it. I made a decision, you disagreed with that decision, and ignored all the thought that went into my decision. You were welcome to discuss it with me, but re-posting it was walking on top of me. 3. The forum is not, and cannot be, a democracy. I think this is sort of self-evident, if you apply the one person, one vote, rule. Who gets to vote? Do only people who post on here regularly get to vote, or does anyone who walks in off the street get to vote? How do we determine that? Do the people with the loudest voices get heard more? I could go on and on, but you get my drift, I'm sure. The only 'majority rules' situation that I can think of that would happen if a majority of the people who post on here regularly would decide that they didn't want Brian and me to run the forum and site. Then I would definitely leave. I can't speak for Brian, but I suspect he would too (he only took on the responsibility after D@vid left because no one else wanted to do it.) The problem is that people seem to want Brian and I to keep running the site and forum, but they want us to do it the way THEY want it done. We do try to keep everyone's input in mind, but we have to do it the way we think is best. If someone else took over the moderator's role, I am sure that they would do the same. Furthermore, I'd just like to say that, if anyone out there really cannot handle the way we run the forum, you are welcome to set up your own and moderate it as you see fit. It won't offend us or hurt our feelings, and there's certainly enough people reading and posting here to support several forums. (I believe Gerry already has a forum with absolutely no rules, although I am not sure that it's specifically ex-premie oriented.) Respectfully, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 14:47:36 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: Everything BUT Message: (I believe Gerry already has a forum with absolutely no rules, although I am not sure that it's specifically ex-premie oriented.) Hey that's right! I almost forgot about that! Say Anything Ham, we could discuss NLP there. Everyone's welcome. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 19:59:51 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Katie Subject: Everything BUT Message: That pretty much says it, Katie. Only part I'd disagree with is the part about some 'majority rule' referendum making any of my decisions for me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 20:59:04 (EST)
From: Someone Email: None To: gerry Subject: the message Message: 'Someone pulls out a shooter' is a quote from Ham's (deleted) post, I was trying to be clever. To file something away , can be used as an expression, as in this case equating ham's 'blow him away' image, as like, remarks some people make about his penis size. I guess I could put a label on a divider in the file cabinet and label it 'stupid'. Yeah, I could print your remarks, file it, and every once in a while read my stupid file. Are you a muddlehead or you doing this intentionally? Besmirching my good name. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 21:17:11 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Someone Subject: the message Message: Dear Chickenshit, The fact that Ham's post was gone and that you didn't mention your alluding to it, left your ambiguously worded message open to interpretation. There's a saying in nlp that the meaning of your communication is the response you get. ''Besmirching your good name'' Ridiculous! As if ''someone'' is a real name anyone can identify. So come on, tell me who you are. I've posted my full name and address. Let's see if you have any balls. You obviously have shit for brains and your writing sucks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 22:06:18 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: gerry Subject: Jesus, Gerry! Message: Gerry, What the fuck? I agree, Someone's post was ambiguous. I couldn't tell from reading it just where he was coming from. After his questionable 'name' and subject line ('Someone - pulls out a shooter') he said: and I won't recall my exact response , though I did use a wp Premies get pissed, ex-premies get pissed, and rules?, fuck em. Not that I am saying you made a direct threat against M, no, you were making a point, and besides it wasn't you in your imagination that 'blows him away'.Sorry, I will file your comment away with comments about his dick size. My hunch was that he was saying that he thought it nutural and unavoidable that premies and ex's lose their civility at times but that it realyl didn't matter. He clearly saw that Ham mever meant to threaten Maharaji and his wishing him ill was less a curse, let alone a threat, than it was an insult. But, like I say, Someone's post was rather inscrutable. And his subject line provocative. (By the way, Someone, could you please change your name? Talk about unnecessary confusion! We don't need this forum to turn into an Abbott and Costello routine. Think about it.) But Ger, what do you do? Do you ask the guy to clarify himself and the ambiguity of his post? No, unfortunately you don't. Isntead you jump the gun and say this: So who the fuck are YOU? Keeping a file on all the 'bad' ex's who insult your Lard? Ohhhhhhhhhhh scary!!!!! Your not so subtle attemps at intimidation are transparent, asshole. Looks like you made the ''hit'' list, Ham. Welcome aboard! and: So Katie, how do you interpret Someone pulls out a shooter, who is also keeping a file on comments? I'd say it's time for ''Someone'' to go ''bye-bye.'' Again, I'm just amazed at your quick trigger. Here, you're assuming: 1) The guy's a premie. Personally, I think he could just as easily be an ex or some other variety of human being every bit as easily. I can't, for the life of me, understand how you're sure about this. 2) The guy's actually keeping a file on people here. He makes one simple comment about 'fil[ing] away' comments which, in the circumstances, could just be another way of saying 'categorizing'. Maybe he does have a file cabinet with all the posts here, maybe he doesn't. But there's nothing in his single turn of that phrase that proves the point one way or the other. 3) The guy's trying to intimidate ex's or, for that matter, anyone. Gerry, you jump to this conclusion without first knowing if a) the guy's not simply trying to be funny; b) he's not trying, effectively or not, to make a point by way of illustration (hence the subject line); or c) any other possible impetus he might have had for writing what he did. 4) The guy's a guy. (Or is that just my assumption?) Well how about that he's an 'asshole'? That just goes back to your other FAST assumptions. I guess if you were right about them, you wouldn't be so out-of-line calling him whatever. But face it, you almost NEED emoticoms in this medium. There's no body language, facial expression or inflection to help deliver the message here. Thus, much more tendency for confusion than in live or even phone conversation. THUS, a lot more need to seek clarification. But you, Gerry, just jump all over people so half-cocked at times. Again, as I asked you before, what if you're wrong about this guy? First, how would you ever know? Second, wouldn't it then have been stupid to have attacked him so quickly? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 00:08:31 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jesus, Mary, Joseph, and Jim Message: 1) Fair enough. Someone, are you a premie? ( I really thought someone was a premie based on what he/she said as well as how it was said.) But really, who else but a premie would take offense at ragging the guru about his little dick? Besides, I didn't start the ''M has a little dick'' commentary, only added a little fuel to that fire. I thought it was funny and a good swipe at the greaseball. Of course I haven't seen his dick. Now that you are back at the Lotus feet, you may just get a chance--keep your eyes peeled! 2) File-- I took him/her literally. It's gonna be real tough if I have to start interpreting what people say. After all, words mean things, right? I'm just taking him/her at their word. Any reason I shouldn't? Any indication he/she didn't mean what they said? 3) I didn't find the post illustrative (of what, btw?) funny, or anything elso other than threatening. My mistake? Let's vote on it. And if he/she's making threats and keeping a file like he/she (see what you're making me do) said , then yeah, they are an asshole. The poster has the responsibility to be clear, imo. 4) the guy/girl issue is a non issue. I know girls don't have balls. Who's being too literal now? Again, as I asked you before, what if you're wrong about this guy? First, how would you ever know? Second, wouldn't it then have been stupid to have attacked him so quickly? What evidence is there to the contrary?. I'm just going by what he/she says and the context in which it was said. But you, Gerry, just jump all over people so half-cocked at times. Again, as I asked you before, what if you're wrong about this guy? First, how would you ever know? Second, wouldn't it then have been stupid to have attacked him so quickly? So I guess we've settled that it is a guy. How did find you that out? I don't like threats, period. It's Someone's responsibility to to be clear when they are dancing around and pointing guns and keeping files. If I misinterpreted the post, then yeah, I'm real sorry. But I don't think so. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 00:34:43 (EST)
From: someone Email: None To: Jim and Gerry Subject: pro and con Message: nice recovery, playing the 'got any balls' card. We used to say in school 'you don't have a hair on your asshole' if..... well it wasn't giving out my full name. My writing has always sucked.... its embarrassing that you pointed that out, ...oh well. What is nlp? And.... Your a chickenshit and You have shit for brains he he I was going to say all that above until I read Jim's post. I suppose I should come clean on why I posted what I did. I read posts here, and over there, and over at that other place and I don't especially want to post pro or con about Maharaji, I call myself a premie but there hasn't been much 'pro' lately in my life about Maharaji. I read Ham's post and the thread continued, but he said something that I kind of pissed me off., before the thread died and went to off the end. I wanted to draw attention to his post, so's the ambiguous(gotta install a dictionary) name/subject and just enough and not enough data for whom it may concern to parse to see if I was a little over t Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 00:42:40 (EST)
From: someone Email: None To: Jim and Gerry -damnit Subject: pro and con Message: I was going to say all that above until I read Jim's post. I suppose I should come clean on why I posted what I did. I read posts here, and over there, and over at that other place and I don't especially want to post pro or con about Maharaji, I call myself a premie but there hasn't been much 'pro' lately in my life about Maharaji. I read Ham's post and the thread continued, but he said something that I kind of pissed me off., before the thread died and went to off the end. I wanted to draw attention to his post, so's the ambiguous(gotta install a dictionary) name/subject and just enough and not enough data for whom it may concern to parse to see if I was a little over the top. I don't think Ham was raging but I didn't like seeing what he said, maybe I could broach the subject of Road Rage I am sure one or two ex-premies have. periodically, but I wasn't to optimistic about this. His post was deleted, my post was deleted. He re-posted sort of the same message so instead of re-posting with cut and paste, everything being equal, (whatever that means), draw attention with another eye catching name/subject , fuck the rules ( how far out is he?). I compared his comments to a run of the mill insult, as that is how I will file them, which is just attitude as in yeah, yeah yeah whatever. Doesn't matter what I believe, dear reader, what you think? Are they the same? His post was re-deleted and he was warned not to do it again, my job was done, but my post wasn't deleted and my words are out there waving a gun around, probably as a warning 'See what comes out the woodwork, when you post this stuff' This is kind of embarrassing, I have posted here and over there, not over There, over there and of course not over at that other place, and I don't want get another name. You don't want to continue this thread anyway do you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 01:45:29 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: someone Subject: pro and con Message: dear someone - Thanks for clearing all that up (I was pretty sure it wasn't a threat against Ham when you wrote that you were filing it away with comments on the size of M's body parts - sheesh. Anyway, I got the comparison). I don't know why your response to Ham didn't disappear when the original post did, but I think that it has something to do about the way Brian deleted Ham's post #2. Hope it's not TOO embarassing Anyway, you are welcome to keep posting here but if you do, I really would appreciate it if you got another name, or used your real name or initial, or used the name you used to use (haven't I talked to you somewhere before, by the way??) Another person once tried to use the name 'Me' as a pseudonym, and you can imagine how well that worked... Regards, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 03:31:36 (EST)
From: ham Email: None To: someone Subject: pro and con Message: Thanks someone for filling in the gaps. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 11:42:17 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: someone Subject: pro and con Message: Well, I really don't know what to think about you. I was correct in that you are a premie, and still don't know for sure if you are male or female, not that it matters. So you DON'T have an actual physical file? It's not so far fetched that someone (not ''Someome'') keeps hard copies of various posts. And the Lard's devotees HAVE killed at least one person for insulting the perfect master, so who's to say some fanatic out there isn't planning reprisals? I get the gist of what you are saying only if I read your post several times. And your chosen psuedonym is a problem. A person doesn't have to be a great writer to be clear. The rules of grammar and punctuation are no mystery or secret, and not that tough. A little diligence in this area would go a long way if you are really interested in communicating. I can understand your reticence in revealing your identity. After all, fear does rule in the kingdom of rawatt the deceiver. One really good reason to get away from it completely, IMO. Why should there be fear if the trip is about truth, love, and enlightenment? Oops, I forgot. It's just about ''enjoying life'' now. I wanted to draw attention to his post, so's the ambiguous(gotta install a dictionary) name/subject and just enough and not enough data for whom it may concern to parse to see if I was a little over the top. So, do I take this to mean you meant the post to be provocative and to test the limits of what's acceptable or not? Then I feel vindicated in saying you were threatening, and an asshole and a chickenshit. If that's not what you mean then I take it all back, as in apology. This is kind of embarrassing, I have posted here and over there, not over There, over there and of course not over at that other place, and I don't want get another name. You don't want to continue this thread anyway do you? I can't help but concluding you are being deliberately unclear here. I guess this is your idea of a joke. Maybe I'm losing my sense of humor about this whole guru thing and need a break... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 12:18:07 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: gerry Subject: pro and con Message: Gerry - I think I know this guy, and if I do, he is a good guy. If it's the person I am thinking of, I think what he means by I have posted here and over there, not over There, over there and of course not over at that other place is that he has posted on here and on the premie forum, but not at MMT or on ELK. I actually thought this was pretty funny. Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 23:06:14 (EST)
From: Jonathan Cainer the liar Email: None To: srb Subject: Where premies go deaf.--srb Message: Jon c. claimed that he made some notes of the talk by the lord. He lies because he doesn't want to admit that he RECORDED the talk against the rules. If he admits that, then perhaps those dumb publication table crowding premies will do it too. He allows on his web site some cult managment jerk to launch a criticism of premies crowding around the publications table like, like well, HUMAN BEINGS! The same smug better than thou critical types that are just like their master of life prem rawat-mharaji. In his sattelite talk, the lord talked about 'what kind of ruler are you? Grumpy? Dismissive? Suspicious? He is talking about himself. He talks about himself in his talks a lot. This is mild for what kind of rages he has dished out at people. He has stated that he does it because his servants exhibit these qualities; lazyness, stupidity, inconsiderate. He talked about himself when he said 'within my inner country there are forces that lurk, forces that would just love to see war break out again! I have to identify those forces and tell them: cool it. I'm not interested in the war. I am interested in establishing peace.' This is where all premies go wrong. I did. When he talks about himself, we go deaf and think he is talking about us, the lowly humans. Since some point in the eighties he started talking about himself in his talks. He also will catch himself if he lets too much out he will do a quick about face and talk about 'people'. As he does in his next sentence-'for a lot of people, it doesn't seem to be like that. It seems as if the're hardly even interested in living in peace.' The liar Jonathan Cainer edited out this transcript of his TAPE. What he edited out was the regular commentary about how we need the master. How important the master is. I hope the mole will fill the gaps. While this is his best talk to date, the crucial issue of deceit in who he is still poisons the air and when he mentions 'disaster' and 'why does it have to take such a big alarm bell' he is referring to this web site and the struggles he has had about it. Including his efforts to blunt it by the other website and his efforts to come here and post as doc and student and others and somehow deal with us. But his views were loaded with his self-delusion and were met with derision and clarity exposeing his true state. He has obsessed over this 'disaster'. While the people who saw the talk were probably all aglow over the talk about the breath and how they don't want to procrastinate because HE is getting 'so powerful' He shows his continued arrogance in many ways in spite of the appearance of humility in parts. He of course coats his punches, 'my hope is that we will have more of these sattelite talks, If it doesn't happen, I may be a little disappointed but it's no big deal. i've been disappointed before.' Here is where the clear message is -the premies have dissappointed me the master again and again- up the guilt- 'surely he is disappointed that I can't meditate like I'm supposed to or get to 'that place' or not procrastinate.' (surrender, do ssm, realize knowledge, and all the rest of the reasons that it is OUR fault) Of course if any premie is going to be honest here, face it, he never in all those years said that it was to just enjoy each breath and that was the deal. Even recently he reaffirmed that you weren't supposed to 'snack' on that 'technique' Am I wrong? NO. He acts like the idea of enjoying this life and having some gratitude is a amazing new secret. He states 'It is beautiful to see that there are people who STILL seek it' GOOD GRIEF!! What does he think christianity is about? Of course the zealots in that religion are caught else where, but the regular person is just trying to live and get along with others and life. I wonder if he has ANY idea how many people HE has disappointed? How many really devoted ones that he raged at and ruled with such a mean hand and how many tears and how many truly open hearts he gathered under false terms and stomped on. HE HAS BEEN DISAPPOINTED? Not fair that he goes marching on as master of life/lord and tunes his dogma more and more so that others will be unable to figure out the lie. Truly, the intelligence, the self concious thing that he all of a sudden claims he prays--to whom? That intelligence wants a counter weight. this web site. 70,000 is actually a big base. the fake lord marches on. How do you like the comments about he PRAYS (a new concept for him) that no one will take away his travel abililty. 'never ever' never ever? So what if the book sales take a tumble because of us or y2k? Can't he ride a plane? That is another pitch for finances. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 23:17:43 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jonathan Cainer the liar Subject: Where premies go deaf.--srb Message: Thanks Bill. I'm with you on just about everything except you-know-what. I still say even if you're right about M posting as x, y and z, it's just a madman's lucky guess. :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 23:59:09 (EST)
From: srb Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jonathan Cainer the liar Message: Greetings Fearless Leader. YOU are just smarting from treating rawat as just some typical delusional cult member when he was posting so much! But don't go 'damn!' You were plenty rough. I didn't get to read the 'deadwood' posts before they vanished but who else would use that name? (don't worry about it Mike) I got so much to do and YOU are a big problem for me. I hate to miss your wild hilarity. (and of course everyone else) Hi Gerry! The CD Review on Amazon was a great laugh. To just name one. Too bad Katies husband- who likes to laugh, isn't up for the ferocity so he is missing the grace of god come through you. Or is it that -kill or be killed- gene. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 00:10:54 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: srb Subject: Now now! Message: Bill, I detect a nasty! How in the world could I be a big problem for anyone? Really! Listen, it is entirely possible that M has posted here. You know/knew him better than I. Maybe you're right. But I recall asking you why you thought -- sorry, were sure -- he was posting as those guys and I can't remember you offering anything but his tone and message (both of which are copied all the time by premies, aren't they?). But maybe's there's something more. Like what's this 'deadwood' thing? Hm? Please, I'm all ears. Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 00:48:10 (EST)
From: srb Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jon Cainer the liar Message: Greetings F. Lea Dang, my post was missing something in the -from- line and I hit back as directed and the post vanished. Like fishing, It was pure genius and completely funny and too big to reproduce at bedtime on the east coast. Good Night Oh Dark One. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 12:52:14 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: srb Subject: vanishing posts - technical Message: Hi Bill - If you forgot to put your name, and went back to fill it in, your post was probably still there. Next time that happens, try scrolling down through the blank space and see if it doesn't show up. Works for me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 23:18:47 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: all Subject: Where premies go deaf.--srb Message: Great post, Bill. That is another pitch for finances. Call me biased, but the only goober flick I've seen (Long Beach) was loaded with subtle and not-so-subtle pitches for money. I was shocked at the bold-facedness of it all. Guess I shouldn't be, but that's just me, and I HAVE been away a while. I've said it before and I'll reiterate: this whole trip for the BM is about money, sex and power. Especially money, as the little dicked twerp probably only uses his micro-penis as a weapon... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 19:49:01 (EST)
From: another ex-premie Email: None To: anyone/everyone Subject: Where premies go deaf.--srb Message: 'Including his efforts to blunt it by the other website and his efforts to come here and post as doc and student and others and somehow deal with us'. Is the above statement true? I know that people pop on and off the forum all the time, but this is the first time I've heard anyone say that gm has posted here under specific names. Jim...Katie...Brian??? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 20:09:59 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: another ex-premie Subject: Hey, don't ask me Message: Another, You're tapping into Bill's pet theory. Personally, I think he's nuts but then, again, there WAS that reference to 'deadwood'. (??) No, I really don't know. Bill thinks these guys are all Maharaji based on no more than how they say what they say. Mind you, Bill also thinks that your breath whill start talking to you if you buy it a few drinks and treat it nice. You gotta ask him on this one. (P.S. It really wouldn't be THAT outlandish if he were right. I'd still cry 'lucky guess' though). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 20:43:22 (EST)
From: another ex-premie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hey, don't ask me Message: I agree with you, it wouldn't be that outlandish. But based on what we know about his behavior towards other people, it just doesn't seem likely that he could control himself and resist the temptation to jam it in our faces that he is THE LORD and WHO THE HELL DO WE THINK WE ARE??? Especially if you started in on him!!! Just that special touch you have, Jim. Regards P.S. Every time i think of your post a few months back comparing your screwed up monitor with Keith's mind, I crack up!!! Almost choked on the koolaid I was drinking!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 23:06:52 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: another ex-premie Subject: Hey, don't ask me Message: Thanks, but what'd I say? I can't remember that at all. As for Maharaji, wouldn't it be something if Bill were right all along? No, not about the breath. That's just entirely beyond even vicilized discussion, but about Maharaji being one of those obnoxious ignoramuses. Isn't there someone out there who knows if and when he's ever gotten into surfing around... or more? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 21:32:09 (EST)
From: another ex-premie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Okay, here it is word for word Message: Date posted: Monday, Jul 27, 1998 at 20:41:45 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Monitor crashes--off topic Hi, Does anyone know why my monitor just siezes up once in a while, forcing me to reboot? I'll be on-line when suddenly I try to go to another page and the page itself changes but parts of the earlier screen stay up. In moments, if I keep trying new pages, my screen looks like a collage of Keith's brain. Then I have to reboot. I was just hoping someone here might know their way around this type of difficulty. Thanks, Jim Just re-reading this has set me off again! Aren't you the author? Regards P.S. No, I didn't have to dig thru the archives for this. I printed it out to provide future laughs! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 22:35:02 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: another ex-premie Subject: People with disabilities Message: For years I tried to approach life as a learning opportunity. When I discovered the easy one-upmanship of political correctness, I finally 'learned' that it was more fun to find in each interaction an opportunity to TEACH instead. Here, Another, I'm miffed by your name. If I confused you with another person here (no, I know you're Another. I mean another) I could end up talking about Someone or Another! Do you really want to do this? Perhaps more significantly, in these times of deinstitutionalization and general mental health care cutbacks, do you really want to do this to KEITH? Responsible posting is the key to a happy life. Thanks for your thoughts, Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:10:50 (EST)
From: another ex-premie Email: None To: Jim Subject: People with disabilities Message: No, I'm not Another or another or Someone. My REAL name is .... ......Hihomumio!!!! I can see that I've created some confusion, so I promise to be responsible and post under my real name from now on. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 23:13:20 (EST)
From: srb Email: None To: another ex-premie Subject: Where premies go deaf.--srb Message: Why dont you stroll the archives and decide for your self. 'Doc' and 'student' are good ones to start with If you want others you can ask me for some others. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 01:10:35 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: another ex-premie Subject: M posting? Message: I know Bill (srb) disagrees with me, but I honestly don't think Maharaji has ever posted on here. (I have read all the posts by 'Doc' and 'Student', too.) Just my humble opinion here - plus I just can't picture it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 10:27:28 (EST)
From: Salah Email: salah_h@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Bal BahgwanJi/Gulf War Predict Message: I had a personal interview with BBJ in London in the 70s, and he told me that there will be a great war in Iraq. He described in detail the weapons that will be used and the scope of the war. He said that terrible weapons will be used. He even said specifically, TV guided bombs and intelligent weapons will be used with such devastation and accuracy, drop and forget kind of weapons......He predicted that 25 years before it happened....He was right... BBJ was really a clever guy...imenseley intelligent, vibrant, great personality, full of ideas...amazing person to talk to...He was really fascinated by Science and interested in what is going on...He developed this whole concept of The Word as described in the Gospel of St John...In the Begining was the Word... His theorey was that the Word is the Primodial Vibrartion of Life, and that Modren Physics underscores this.... 'Ultimately all Quantum entities are just a collection of vibrations of different frequencies...The basic Vibration is the Word'...Atoms, Electrons, and sub atomic particles....they have no reality of their own....they can be synthesized from a basic vibration, vibrating at different frequencies....The Word Regards Salah We must be Objective and Truthfull....Then we will know Truth Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 10:42:00 (EST)
From: Orlando Email: None To: Salah Subject: More gibberish... Message: Man, you scare me...you are talking nonsense Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 10:48:39 (EST)
From: Salah Email: None To: Orlando Subject: What are u Scared Off? Message: Scared about what?...What BBJ predicted 25 years ago...I just told you what he told me 25 years ago about the Gulf War...Are we so materialistic that we dont even acknowldge other ways of knowing.... Regards Salah Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 11:00:40 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Orlando Subject: What's the point? Message: Salah: It is probably true that BBJ is more clever than his younger brother, but there are a lot of people in that category. (Wonder if M could pass his own instructor test?) Many of the apacalypse crowd were predicting a big war in Iraq. It is Sumeria and Babylonia, after all. And it would not have been difficult to predict smart weapons in 1976. If you had read Jane's you'd know that. The business about the Word being the 'primordial vibration' has some problems, since vibrations are phenomena and the Word is non-phenomenal. I don't suppose he dealt with that, did he? Frankly, I think it's a mistake to say the word is a vibration, since there are no 'vibrations' with frequencies of 0 or 1. Calling it a 'vibration' is a sign of confusion and ignorance. So, what's your point? -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 11:16:26 (EST)
From: salah Email: salah_h@hotmail.com To: Scott T. Subject: The point is simple Message: In the 70s, no one realy knew or cared much who or where Iraq was...I discussed this matter with BBJ for specific reasons..The conciousness of the 70s is radically different from today...The human race today is bounded by fear and subjugation...people were much more free to express their opinions 20 years ago...Now everything seems to be black and white, the goodies vs the badies, and one day we make one guy a hero the next date we make the same guy a monster(Saddam in point)... People are so glibb, and indocrinated by the stuff they see and read...it is an amazing experiment in mass indoctrination....just observe and see all around you....My point is the reason why I told the Story of BBJ is because I met the guy and have a lot of respect for him.....thats all...I am not trying to make any point...period Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 11:33:50 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: salah Subject: The point is ridiculous Message: My point is the reason why I told the Story of BBJ is because I met the guy and have a lot of respect for him.....thats all...I am not trying to make any point...period Do you respect him as Guru Maharaj Ji, the guru who tells his followers that he was annointed as such by his father (eliminating all mention of the prempal years)? The guy's just another liar and scammer, Salah. Your judgment's fucked, if you think he's worthy of anyone's respect. As for his prophetic powers, tell us about Millenium, if oyu will. Don't forget the aliens. Plus, I noticed you dropped out of our discussion about M's responsibility for R's bugging DLM. Was that because you recognized that what you were wrong but don't like admitting it? We must be objective in our search for truth, Salah. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 12:20:22 (EST)
From: salah Email: None To: Jim Subject: The point is ridiculous Message: Jim I dont think anything of BBJ apart from what I said...I dont think that he is a PM or whatever, I just stated I had several dialogues with him, my impression of him, and the accuracy of what he said.. About Mellenium, I accept what you say, lots of rubbish and hype was spoken by pretty much everyone...I dont know where this alien thing came out from...Listen these were heady days for all of us... Regards Salah Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 12:24:41 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: salah Subject: The point is simple Message: Salah: Re: The human race today is bounded by fear and subjugation... If there is any truth to this (and frankly I think this is less true today than 20 years ago) I submit that Satpal has been a very real agent, or at least he aspires to be. He probably won't be re-elected to the congress for awhile since he was displaced by a fairly popular politician. His stint as FM was short. I am basing my estimation of his character almost entirely on his bid to fraudulently reassert himself as 'Perfect Master.' There was also a scandal concerning the fact that his major support faction was involved in a group rape on a bus, but there is little reason to believe he had any knowledge of that event until after it occurred. He just didn't exercise very good judgment about his political associations. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 11:56:05 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Salah Subject: What do u think about BBJ now? Message: Dear Salah - I'm curious to know what you think about Bal Bhagwan Ji now. Did you go to his program in England? There's some info on it on the web-site, and also (I think) a link to a web site that one of his followers has put up. I also got an e-mail from one of his followers several months ago which implied that Prem Pal (M) had been handling the Perfect Master job until Bal Bagwan Ji was 'ready' to take it over, which he apparently now is. Regards, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 12:02:27 (EST)
From: Salah Email: salah_h@hotmail.com To: Katie Subject: Have not met BBJ for over 20yr Message: Hehehe....funny... I have not met or seen the guy for 20 or so years....is he still around?.... I did not know that he held a programme in England.. I heard rumours that he tried to enter into politics but without success...he run for some kind of seat in India...then I heard another rumour that he became a Sadhu... Tell me more if you know anything...I am interested.. Regards Salah Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 12:09:23 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Salah Subject: Have not met BBJ for over 20yr Message: Hi Salah - Here's the link to the page on this site that describes the program he gave in England this year (it's written in a humorous way, so be prepared). The page also has a link to one of his follower's sites (if it's still up.) Jim corresponded with the man who put up the web site, so may know more. Bal Bhagwan Ji in England Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 12:17:45 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: Katie Subject: BBJ predicts toothbrush Message: As I recall from the Great Millenium Fesitival/Program/Brain Wash Session, BBJ predicted the Divine City and amongst the features of the D.C. were toothbrushes that dispensed their own toothpaste from within. That's right up there with Ginzu knives, Vego-matics, and Popiels Pocket fisher. Here's my credit card number, 666-1234-6969-5678. When you see this toothbrush please order 100 of them for me. I can't wait! Actually, I think that BBJ was somewhat successful in Indian politics. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 12:23:36 (EST)
From: Salah Email: None To: Katie Subject: Hey Message: Thanks katie ...you are cute Regards Salah P.S. If you ever come to my part of the world...drop in for some skiing Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 12:35:53 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Salah Subject: More info on BBJ Message: dear Salah - Thanks for the compliment and invitation, but I can't ski at all. I married into a family where EVERYONE skis (even very small children) but I don't have the necessary coordination. BTW, what is your part of the world? I checked the link, and Bal Bhagwan Ji's follower has taken down his home page. However, the information is available on another site (Jean-Michel Kahn's DLM/EV site) and here's a link to that page: Information on Bal Baghwan Ji (Sat Pal) today The rest of the site is interesting reading if you haven't seen it yet. Regards, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 12:42:23 (EST)
From: Salah Email: salah_h@hotmail.com To: Katie Subject: More info on BBJ Message: Thanks for the info...he looks overweight...poor guy.... Problem with India is that every village has a SatGuru... I live in Switzerland...near the Alps....I am glad your family skiis....its good fun and a healthy exercise Regards Salah Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 14:06:27 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Salah Subject: to Salah Message: Hi Salah - since you live in Switzerland - do you by any chance speak French? If so, did you know there is a French ex-premie site and forum? Also, Jean-Michel's site is bilingual (he is a French ex-initiator). P.S. I would love to go to Switzerland, although not to ski! We have some very good friends in Belgium that we may visit if we ever get the money to do so, and we would go to Switzerland as well. About half of my great-grandparents came from either Switzerland (near Germany) or the part of Germany that is very near Switzerland (Schwenningen was the name of the German town.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 13:00:49 (EST)
From: srb Email: None To: Salah Subject: Bal He was boring in person Message: I heard bbj plenty live. He was very boring to listen to. I don't mean the ideas. His vibe and attitude and manner was VERY flat and boring. mata ji was worse OK, they would have a brief moment at the start when they got off on the effect of sitting down on a throne on stage and hearing everyones cheers, but I recognised at the time and clearly remember that bbj was steady and blah. To paint him as brilliant and vibrant is fantasy. Check your memory. good grief. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 17:22:29 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Salah Subject: Bal BahgwanJi/Gulf War Predict Message: Salah: Guided missle systems already existed in the 70s, perhaps BBJ had read about them in his science comic books. Moreover, when they were used, they weren't NEARLY as accurate as CNN lead us to believe. Iraq and Iran were at war by the late 70s anyway. The war was being predicted lots of places. Be careful with predictions, Salah. Only the ones that are remotely correct are remembered. BBJ also predicted that the Pope would receive knowledge and he said it was a miracle that Maharaji had turned their dog into a vegetarian. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 19:15:07 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: JW Subject: I Predict that MJs Cult will Message: vanish within the next five years in these parts. MJ once equated friendship to a balloon. 'You have to keep blowing into them to keep them afloat. He ought to know! Many of his devotees have grown tired of blowing him in these parts (save Monica Lewis, of course) and the imaginary friendship bond has been severed or diminished. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 20:25:34 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: JW Subject: Bal BahgwanJi/Gulf War Predict Message: Joe: What's the matter with you? Of course Bubblegum Ji was smart. He wore glasses, for heaven sake! 'Science comics,' that's rich. Don't know why I thought he read Jane's. He probably never heard of it. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 00:57:05 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: all Subject: Bal BahgwanJi Message: I think that when BBJ split M was when I started to think about leaving.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 01:23:55 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Bal BahgwanJi Message: Yeah, that's just got to be true, Run. If you think of it, if you assume that everyone's got the same kind of rough logical template -- hey, I'm talking roughly or just for the sake of argument or something like that -- then EVERYONE must have started thinking then. Some of us covered it up better than others, of course. All of us who stayed 'beat the mind' on that one. I guess, by the same token of assumed universality (which I pretty much believe in anyway), ALL of us must have felt like little Hanumans, coming face to face with real Lila! AND we beat it! Far out! I'm going back! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:35:18 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Jim Subject: Bal BahgwanJi Message: I'm not sure what you're saying- but that was when I really started thinking there might be some cracks that weren't really mendable. Also worth mentioning for those who were not with us in the old days when Abe Lincoln walked to school by candlelight: there were persistent rumors the BB was the incarnation of Jesus and the M was the 'Father' along with similar for Bole (Shiva) and not as persistently Raja (buddha). BB was Jesus, that was widespread and common. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 20:24:37 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Runamok Subject: BB vs Bibi Message: Run: I thought BB was Bridget Bardot? Bibi is, of course, Benjamin Netanyahou. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 02:54:44 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Scott vs Babe Message: Like we say in show biz, okay babe.. BB=JC was always the thing, big time. I dunno how long it would have taken me to leave if JC hadn't split.. Something was rotten in Denmark, I was sure.. I don't have the same amount of negativity toward BB as M- but some comparisons may be warranted. But the rumor mill with stuff like that- that was a major part of the substance of premiedom and still is, I would imagine. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 06:45:24 (EST)
From: nitpicker Email: nitpicker@bigfoot.com To: Everyone Subject: Tricky Vicky Message: By popular request, a brief review of Vicky Leng's report - although she is lacking the normal contempt for outsiders and spiritual ambition displayed by many of the other contributors to EL. She is more like someone who is on some sort of drugs. Vicky asks 'do we ever say, 'Happy new day.' or 'Happy new breath'?'. er..no Vicki, most of us are busy getting on with our lives rather than wasting our breath on comments that become more spurious with each repetition. I always found the 'Have a nice day' habit most irritating as I doubt whether the underpaid waitresses etc. really mean it after the 50th time, or even the first time. I admit that after drinking more than is good for me on New Years Eve I will wish any total stranger 'Happy New Year' but that is just the drink talking. Normally I only give out good wishes on rare occassions to those I know and care about. Nevertheless I am glad to hear that Vicki is having a good time. 'I must say I am a very excited happy person at any time, but today I feel this happiness ever more deeply from within.' I have never noticed where my occassional bouts of happiness come from, but this deep within business sounds a bit rude to me. As Vicki goes on, this seemingly happy-go-lucky parable develops sinister undertones 'It felt as if we were all one entity, working together' for those of us who know that the Borg are a reality this is scary. She has obviously been assimilated into the collective. Also, she does not mention what these drinks are that are thrust into the hands of the arriving jet lagged premies. Whatever it is I think she has probably been over indulging herself. It's all right to have a good time Vicki but it may lead to quite a 'deep' and lingering hangover when you start to come down. If you read some of the stories of those ex-premies on this site who have fallen from grace you will see that this can take years. My advice is try to sober up before you are too far gone - the truth might not be so glamorous but it's quite intoxicating in it's own way. BFN NITPICKER Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 12:29:01 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: nitpicker Subject: The Job is Yours! Message: NITPICKER, While I am not fully authorized by this website to do anything other than to post my tripe-like comments, I hereby award you the full time position of monitoring ELK and expounding and explaining what these people are really saying. Without your clear and concise analysis I am completely lost when I attempt to read these stories of gratitude. In fact, my mind becomes numb, yet at the same time I feel very peaceful deep, deep, deep down inside. Nevertheless, I still can't understand a single thing they say. Thank you, keep up the good work. It's a dirty job, but somebody has got to do it just as they have people reading all the posts on this site. Can you imagine what reading ex-premie.org does to their heads? Probably, something like taking an icy cold shower when you're drunk. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 01:34:22 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Premie Buzzwords Message: Just reading over Maharaji's latest 'gift' I'm thinking it might be neat if we compiled a list of premie buzzwords. These be words Maharaji and premies have commandeered over the years. We could make a fun little Devil's Dictionary or something. Stuff like: 'understanding': the mental state one experiences when one has abandoned all conscious use of one's neocortex (i.e. thinking, conversing, studying, analyzing). 'knowledge': a random selection of four common Indian meditation techniques said to be able to help one stop thinking and thus enjoy true 'understanding'. 'gift': something one is born with but which, with the proper understanding, one learns to express gratitude for without end. -- these aren't keepers (I'm tired)but if anyone wants to work a few of these up I think we could make a pretty fun glossary. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 02:28:23 (EST)
From: lea Email: None To: Jim Subject: Premie Buzzwords Message: confused- don't trust yourself gift- selling back to you your own essence and demanding compensation and major constant reminding from the heart- I don't know what I'm talking about, but it sells 'sincere' right? maharaji says- I can't talk for myself, I'm too scared I have to give him credit for everything he's a genius Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 16:37:11 (EST)
From: hamzen Email: None To: lea Subject: Premie Buzzwords Message: Like your style Lea, hope you're around for a while. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 09:23:35 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Premie Buzzwords Message: 'beautiful': What it's 'just so so' is, as in 'it's just so so beautiful'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 11:04:18 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Premie Buzzwords Message: Gratitude--Goober wants more money Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 12:52:23 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: gerry Subject: Premie Buzzwords Message: Inteleky - feel the invisible thirst for Goomers K Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 18:54:36 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Premie Buzzards Message: The 'eagle's' cronies: PAM Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 17:07:20 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Premie Buzzwords Message: I think the buzzword analysis is really important. It cuts through the cult-language to what is REALLY being said. I think UNDERSTANDING is also equivalent to the old commandment of 'never leave room for doubt in your mind.' It means being thoroughly programmed into a belief system. It means, whenever Maharaji is contradictory, whenever you are miserable as a premie, whenever you hear things that indicate Maharaji is a scumbag, whenever you are called upon to sacrifice and ignore your values to be a premie, you just adjust your UNDERSTANDING and repeat that it'a all so simple and beautiful. And Maharaji said, it's UNDERSTANDING, the 'thin veneer' that holds the whole thing together, not knowledge. Also 'that,' used as an adjective, as in, that love, that peace, that joy, that knowledge, that gift, etc., making it sound like perfectly ordinary words are something special and connoting that the premies understand something other people don't. I also remember the remote control/chair story from 20 years ago and he also said it in Long Beach in 1996, in conjunction with saying that he used to watch soap operas on TV everyday until he got bored. When he got bored, he started playing with the remote control. How profound. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 20:17:12 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: Premie Buzzwords Message: Right on the $, Joe. I think we should really work this glossary up. You're right it IS important (if I don't say so myself!). Here're some other words that could use a little deconstruction. Care to take a shot at them if I keep pitching? Try these: 1) Love 2) The world 3) master 4) appreciation 5) questions 6) sincerity Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 11:16:22 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: all re: buzzwords Subject: be here now or get there later Message: hey, good day everybody, even as a premie, something that irks me particularly is the reference to being in 'THAT' experience or to being 'THERE'.... shit, man, i spent years quieting down enough to be 'HERE' in 'THIS' experience called HERE NOW.... i don't know about anyone else, but i am alot more comfortable being HERE NOW than THAT THERE. being THAT THERE actually makes me a little nauseous, ya know? being HERE NOW makes me feel like i am all in the same place at the same time, kinda homey, ya know?....THAT THERE makes me feel like the march hare in alice in wonderland, always late, late for a very important date and never arriving. i always intuitively took jesus' words: 'the kingdom of heaven is at hand' to really mean 'be here now', just filtered through thousands of years and hundreds of scribes in the cosmic 'telephone game' where messages get garbled over time and a lack of really paying attention to the original message. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 11:40:13 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: shp Subject: This that and there Message: Hi SHP - I liked your post, for a number or reasons, but one of them is because I can picture some people I know talking about 'that there experience' (I grew up in Virginia with some people who could speak in Appalachian dialect), which means 'that experience over yonder'. 'This here' experience would mean that the experience was present. JW commented on the use of 'this' and 'that' to emphasize the word they are modifying. I also think 'this' and 'that' are distancing, impersonalizing words (for example saying 'this life' instead of 'my life'). Plus they just get to be an annoying speech habit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:36:06 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: shp Subject: be here now or get there later Message: shp: GOOD to hear from you , again! You know, he's been using those words in 'that' way for a very long time. The really funny thing, to me, is that 'I' didn't key on those words immediately. My earliest spiritual understandings had 'BE HERE NOW' at their very core (because that is what ALL of the books said). I can't believe that I prostituted my own basic beliefs/understandings for this guy and what he was selling. Sometimes I just amaze myself, ya know what I mean???? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 13:46:56 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: Mike Subject: selling of carrot on the stick Message: yeah, basically the 'that there' is the carrot on the stick to keep the mule moving wherever the driver wants to go. How tantalizing it all is. BM is the Master of Marketing where he creates the need (the world is hell, you are nothing, etc.) and then sells you the solution, yet never quite delivers to keep you coming back for more. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 16:53:44 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: barney Subject: not only that... Message: barney: You are quite correct, IMHO. Additionally, if we had been using our 'rational' minds, we would have realized, immediately, how rediculous some of 'this' was. For example: IF 'that' real thing is 'inside,' then it follows that 'it' is 'here,' NOT 'that there.' You know, I'm beginning to wonder if I even had a 'mind' back in those days, because I sure didn't have any idea how to use it properly. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 18:26:14 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jim Subject: Can I try? Message: Jim: Here are some of my definitions for the words you submitted (please forgive any duplication, if there is any): 1) Love - 'that' feeling, inside (you know...over there) 2) The world - everybody, except premies, of course 3) master - the infinite fountain of material desire 4) appreciation - that which the master desires 5) questions - no definition.... they are not allowed 6) sincerity - the act of giving in to the master's material desires. How'd I do? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 04:05:23 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Mike Subject: will b. soon Message: think i'm gonna be 'Hair' now... ram dass was so groovy.. not Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 09:11:51 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: Runamok Subject: will b. soon Message: here, here! As the Brits say. Or is that hair, hair. Or hari, hari. whatever Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 10:04:26 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Runamok Subject: I couldn't agree more! Message: Run: But you didn't mention what you thought of my defs.... I'm hurt... he he he ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 10:17:35 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Runamok Subject: thanking others for their part Message: richard alpert a.k.a. baba ram dass helped alot of folks back in the 60's.... your opinion of him matters...not. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 13:24:40 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: shp Subject: thanking others for their part Message: Yeah, I gotta thank Richard Albert, Yogananda, Maharishi, the Beatles and the rest of them, for their wonderful job in preparing me for the Lard of the Universe Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 08:02:12 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: gerry Subject: thanking others for their part Message: hi gerry, you said: Yeah, I gotta thank Richard Albert, Yogananda, Maharishi, the Beatles and the rest of them, for their wonderful job in preparing me for the Lard of the Universe what you did with the information was up to you..... i'm just saying i like ram dass, and his words and experiences helped me at the time... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 11:15:48 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: shp Subject: Exes and Ram Dass Message: Hi shp - We've discussed Ram Dass several times on the forum. I think I can try to explain to you why some of the exes don't like him. Most of us who received Knowledge in the early to mid-seventies were heavily influenced by the book 'Be Here Now', particularly the part about finding a guru, and the words 'when the pupil is ready, the teacher will come'. I know that this set ME up for immediate acceptance of Maharaji when he came along. I am pretty sure that this is not what Ram Dass intended (I don't know his opinion about Maharaji), but it is what happened. When we did find Maharaji, many of us discarded our copies of 'Be Here Now' (there were literally stacks of them in the Divine Sales store), and our other spiritual books. I thought I had outgrown 'Be Here Now' when I became a premie. However, I recently got a copy to give to VP, who has never read it. I re-read the introduction/autobiography part, and I was struck by Ram Dass's sincerity and innocence. (I've never read any of his other books, so can't comment on those). At the same time, I was reading 'I'm Here Now, Are You?' by Bhagavan Dass (published last year, I think), and the contrast between the two books was interesting. Bhagavan Dass's book seemed much more cynical, and I didn't really like it all that much. I think part of this is because we are all older now and we've gotten burned by so-called spiritual movements. Anyway, I don't have a problem with you liking and respecting Ram Dass - just wanted to try and explain a few things. Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 13:52:03 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Katie Subject: Exes and Ram Dass Message: our mutual experiences with ram dass pre-, during and post- maharaji (for exers) are very similar, and therefore unnecessary to explain any further. but thanks for facilitating anyway. gee, we both bleed red, need food, air and sleep, and feel the same about previous teachers!! maybe we have more in common than we don't have in common...happy holidays, over and above happy here-now if that's possible! 8>} i know what you mean about getting inadvertantly 'set-up' to accept a guru by ram dass's book 'be here now', but there were dozens of gurus running around at the time. maharaji happened to be the one we all gravitated to for whatever reason we did at the time. coulda been any number of other teachers circulating at the time....i just dug his journey that he so honestly disclosed to a generation of people looking for something deeper than what the late 60's and early 70's had to offer... everyone is entitled to their opinion...there just seems to be alot of bitterness towards lots of ideas and people around here... may i suggest just a little concentration on what 'good' came from life's experiences instead of focussing on the bummer side...for all of us to consider Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 14:34:20 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: shp Subject: focusing on the good Message: Dear shp - You wrote: everyone is entitled to their opinion...there just seems to be alot of bitterness towards lots of ideas and people around here... may i suggest just a little concentration on what 'good' came from life's experiences instead of focussing on the bummer side...for all of us to consider I thought a lot about this, and realized that I probably never felt much gratitude to any well-known spiritual and/or self-help teachers, except maybe Stephen Levine. I respect a lot of these people, but when I think about who I'm grateful to, it's almost always individual people who I interacted with - nobody famous, just friends, partners, and some of the therapists I've seen. Plus a few fiction writers - Lee Smith comes to mind - but this is a very individual preference since the writers I am thinking of don't write on specifically spiritual topics. I've said this on here a lot before, but I was (and am) really grateful for the love and acceptance I got from certain people in the DC premie community when I became a premie. As I said before, these people were no one famous - just premies. I had been having a really hard time, and they helped me out a lot. I honestly never attributed this to Maharaji - I think these people would have been good people no matter where they were. Take care, Katie P.S. Re your last post to Run - I really didn't mean to 'counsel' you in my post about Exes and Ram Dass - it was meant to be a summation of other discussions we've had regarding Ram Dass on the forum. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 18:13:12 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: shp & Katie Subject: To: shp Message: shp: I just wanted to weigh in and echo a 'yes' to what Katie described concerning 'why' we don't like RD. I don't hold RD particularly responsible for my spiritual trip down the yellow brick road. He was just echoing what alot of people thought at the time, with one slight exception: He wan't just 'anybody.' His words, like those of Timothy Leary (his mate during his psychedelic phase), carried alot of clout in our young minds. He 'should' have known this and probably put some warning-labels on that which he espoused (e.g. be careful, there are alot of fakes and frauds out there!). That would have helped. If you read the book, I don't think he ever said 'be skeptical, ask questions, or anything else of that ilk.' I would have to read the book again to be absolutely certain, but if he said it, it wasn't prominent enough (IMHO). Anyway, I digress... RD did have a very powerful influence, but I do agree that, at the time, he was sincere. I think, at the time, he was just as excited about the 'possibilities' as we all were. I think, at the time, that he was a 'seeker,' just like us. But, at the time, he WAS an AUTHORITY on the subject, as far as most young folks were concerned. Again, he should have known this and written his book with that in mind (Again, IMHO). BTW, you are right: We did choose M vice one of the 'other' guru's, thus it really was OUR responsibility in that regard. BUT, we 'chose a guru' because we were told that this is what we needed to progess on our path, by RD and others. One problem with all of this is that EVERY SINGLE guru of the day was a FRAUD! All of them... No matter the choice you made, based upon what RD said we should do, they were ALL WRONG! Some may have been (forgive me) WRONGER that others, in terms of the requirements placed on the aspirants and the 'trip' itself, but WRONG is WRONG! So, that is why I feel like RD 'set me up' for failure... There was no way to win in this game (IMHO). Anybody care to comment on this one? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 19:55:45 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Mike Subject: To: shp Message: I was a young, impressionable, alienated, outsider, seeker at the most vulnerable stage of my life. Pop culture, magazines, music, books were full of this stuff. Why, even the Christian Brothers at the catholic high school I attended were dropping acid and tripping with the kids. I know this first hand. We were pigeons, and even though I accept my share of responsibility for being duped, this sort of tripe was not regularly spoon fed ( I should say shoveled) in the fifties or ever again, for that matter. Now the kids are being fed a steady diet of violence in their pop culture. Any wonder there's kids shooting kids at school these days? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 09:40:16 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Mike Subject: To: mike Message: ok, we were all programmed to look for the ONE. i still am. i feel we are living in that time on earth again. thing is, i think there are many helpers and guides along the way, each shining what ever light they have been blessed with to illuminate the way for those following...parents, friends, teachers, coaches, neighbors, just about anybody we know can be a vehicle for god to speak to us through if we are really begging for it within. we sometimes expect physical/behavioral perfection (according to our concepts)from those who have knowlingly or unknowingly been messengers of truth to us in our lives. that is our mistake, and not the fault of the person we have put on our own pedestal. self-reliance, self-esteem, self-realization. i like the sound of that, don't you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 09:21:22 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Katie Subject: focusing on the good Message: katie: your goodness shines through, no need to explain... and as for famous or non-famous, i never made any such distinction...it's just good to hear about positvie experiences between any people. enjoy. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:48:03 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: shp Subject: thank runamok for his part 2 Message: i think rum dum hurt alot of people by setting them up for a fall and he made his living doing it. Just why is my opinion irrelevant? It's easier to get it wrong and then give some of your gains away then to do it right/ Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 08:05:30 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Runamok Subject: thank runamok for his part 2 Message: you said: Just why is my opinion irrelevant? if ram dass is irrelevant, then so is everyone.... i felt he was sincere. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 11:48:33 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: shp Subject: Ballad of Will B Soon Message: Please read me a little more carefully. I asked you why my opinion was irrelevant. I didn't use the word irrelevant to describe Ram Dass. If you like Ram Dass that's your bz, but prob it's more your responsibility on the forum (i.e. dharma, man) to be respectful to me, AND NOT IN A WAY WHICH CAUSES YOU TO DISRESPECT YOUR BUD. But you stated I was unequivocally wrong about RD instead of saying that you didnt' agree or that you feel differently. We're really not required to sing the praises of all these so-called spiritual leaders here. By the way, I've talked to RD- wake me up when his satsang is over. If I had it to do again, I pray that I would see RD's stuff for the load of hot air that it really is. If you disagree and want to talk, we can talk. i'LL GET SPECIFIC Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 14:02:22 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Runamok - my machine will Subject: call your machine... Message: and we'll do lunch...sorry, i just coulnd't resist! ok, here's the deal. 1) you bad-mouthed rd 2) i spoke up for him and said yuour opinion did not matter 3) i have been getting all kinds of counseling and rebuking ever since 4) so let's leave it at this: i have my experience and you have yours. peace. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 16:16:40 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: shp Subject: care to explain this? Message: 3) i have been getting all kinds of counseling and rebuking ever since By whom? And what were these rebukes and counseling. I've read the thread twice and can't see it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 20:34:00 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: djrayovac@aol.com To: gerry & shp Subject: care to explain this? Message: Gerry, he prob means commentary from us exes re: Shp's own brand of post-premie/new age thinking. Shp, I dunno. Honestly, I have some respect for Gaskin, none for Alpert. I think M is a negligent fraud who is guilty of reeking a lot of havoc in people's lives who are naiive and trusting. Ironically, I meditate and respect that process. I hate to see people taken advantage of for their interest in inner or outer peace. I think there is room for more grey area on the forum, but it's always a very informal, touch and go situation. I really took exception to your comments that M never did you any harm or whatever you said to that effect.. and see Alpert in a similar light.. he's got some excuse on his lips but it's just not for real. I litterally wouldnt have gotten duped by M without Alpert. Anyway, there's an email address up there if you want a machine to leave a message on. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 09:57:44 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Runamok Subject: care to explain Message: hey runamok, good day. i look at it like this. i am 49 years old with a wife of 16 years and two sons, 14 and 10. i have been through all kinds of experiences since my childhood. i have had great times and times when people took advantage of me and got over on me. i have also experienced true human friendship, family, brotherhood. i have been successful in business and also have lost it all and been kicked around by corporate america. at some point in time, i started paying attention to my part in my life and stopped blaming or praising others for my decisions. i feel that we all have a connection inside that is our guide and it is up to us to find that guide, maintain contact with it and trust it. i am not a master of this, but the concept of it all being inside each of us sound very familiar and rings true. how we each get there is our uniqueness. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 09:47:50 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: gerry, runamok Subject: care to explain this? Message: hi guys, i just meant that the clock stopped after i said that thing and there was some comment about it...no biggie, really, katie and i talked. everything's cool. i overdramatically verbalized. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 01:29:33 (EST)
From: lea Email: None To: Everyone Subject: pasadena Message: saw mj in pasadena this morning when the microphone supposedly didn't work at the onset a bongo female yelled out 'dance maharaji!!!' he didn't I almost bought a coffee mug that read I (heart- as in a graphic of a heart) knowledge heavy disturbing lyrics by daya heavy slick intro by premlata- I guess she finally found out where to place her fingers in order to hear papa's music incestuous vibe bongos were happy quite vocal Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 03:57:59 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: lea Subject: pasadena Message: Dear Lea, Are you a premie begining to 'see'? I hope you are helped by the presence of this site. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 11:52:07 (EST)
From: lea Email: None To: Robyn Subject: pasadena Message: I've been more of a potential initiate. this site has helped me pre-deprogram to a large extent, vicariously, anonymously. the m experience was originally presented to me as something different than it is. and the vague, teasing, avoidant satsang I got added to the lack of clarity regarding the true nature of what my potential premiedom would include. I wanted it all to be something else. maybe more ram dass, krishnamurti ... something more shall I say sincere, less slick. the devotional songs sung by daya at the end of the pasadena event are the real message. I hope those lyrics are printed out on this site. many people were sobbing and singing along. pasadena was better than long beach in '95 although I had to deal with the remote control story again mj, will you please retire that material honey?! get another writer on the team. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 12:03:24 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: lea Subject: pasadena Message: Thanks, lea. I'm glad you got some good out of this site. I have only seen Daya singing on video, but I agree about the incestuous vibe - it is strange. And it does seem like the whole trip is getting more devotional again - like it was in the seventies. At least we knew what we were getting into back then. P.S. I really liked your definitions above - they were right on. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 12:51:21 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: Katie Subject: incest or insects Message: Gawd, them is fightin' words! I remember in the old days when Wadi-Sue danced on stage that I felt the same. However, I would point out that Indian dancing seems to have a strong sexual component to it. I once saw a young girl of, say, 12 dancing at an Indian (non-premie event) community pot-luck thingy. Near the end of the dance she did a sort of snake-like slithering downward move that was totally erotic (no, censors and government agents I'm not a pedophile) that pretty much electrified the entire audience and the young girl. As far as Daya goes, gosh, maybe... I do remember one festival/program/brainwash where, I won't mention the male singer's name, but he was on stage singing his big song and I swear to god he was rubbing his crotch and maybe it was a sock in his underwear, but... Sex, drugs and rock'n roll. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 12:59:16 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: barney Subject: incest or insects Message: Hi Barney - I'm certainly NOT suggesting that there is any actual incest there. Daya doesn't do anything that other premie singers don't do. It is just strange - I can't imagine what Daya's and Premlata's (Wadi Sue's) lives must be like. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 13:02:57 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: barney Subject: incest-not Message: It may look incestuous, but Anne Johnston mentioned that Daya's boyfriend lived in the guest house at Malibu. He, according to Michael Duhaney, is a very nice, willing-to-do-anything for MJ second-generation premie. He is one of MJs musicians. Judging from yesterday's event, all that is required is Daya for music, Wadi for intros and MJ to bang on the dead mike--a three-person show. MJ has had to down-size due to lack of participation. Quite frankly, I think they've been CAUGHT IN THE MAGIC. Premies worship the ground they walk on. Daya and Premlata are a crowd pleasers. If you have been raised to be a performer since infantcy, there's nothing quite like the rush of being on stage. Just ask MJ. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 13:09:20 (EST)
From: srb Email: None To: Gail Subject: where is daughter number three Message: Like saddam hussien, No one is good enough or trustable enough so his inner circle gets narrowed down to smaller and smaller family. WHY isn,t his OTHER daughter NAVLATA included???????? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 22:32:52 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: srb Subject: where is daughter number three Message: Is this really true? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 00:57:14 (EST)
From: sherlock Email: None To: Gail Subject: where is daughter number three Message: excuse the short answer, it's late, is it true? yes. we dont have the dna yet from her, but I have some of his over there in that box. Rubbings he made on a jet ski seat of his. One of her hairs will do. Anyone? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 13:53:26 (EST)
From: Salah Email: None To: lea Subject: pasadena Message: The remote contol has been in the script for 20+years... What were those lyrics that people were sobbing to...I am intrigued.... Regards Salah Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 13:59:28 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: lea Subject: pasadena Message: Dear Lea, That is great that you found this site before you ever 'sold your soul'. :) Good luck! Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 20:19:03 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: lea Subject: hey lea Message: lea, Stick around! You're funny and right. Nice to hear from you. So tell me, what's your current aspirant status? Details? Thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 04:18:39 (EST)
From: lea Email: None To: Jim Subject: hey lea Message: this forum moves so fast- I got lost a little- it's overwhelming the amount of people who are really getting into the meat of the manipulation so to speak salah asked about the lyrics to which the tears were flowing- honestly, it was so bad (not daya's voice- but the muzak and the general nature of the content) that it wasn't worthy of my memory I think it was like we are so blessed to have this chance to be with him to feel this peace within, to be here he is such and such the incest vibe came off of her references to him as if he was her savior/ speaking of him impersonally like he was her lover/she his devotee jim, my aspirant status good question I have caused problems for the people who have 'introduced' this stuff to me I asked for books and reading material initially before I dealt with the video fright group (I do not respect many of the video atendees based on some of their natures/true characters and for some other reasons) so, being uncomfortable with the watch the video requirement I just went to long beach a few years back kamikaze style problems with the content then I found out that there were books, where I could read m's 'words' sure they were old, but the fucking premies I asked basically told me I couldn't get any books the library inter library loan system located 2 then, uncomfortable with the people at the videos and still willing to explore a little I asked to borrow a video from a premie and watch it at my home she said I couldn't do that, that she couldn't get it to me, that the video leader guy said I had to come in person them I found some videos at her house while I was dog sitting for her I watched them they were bad she fucking lied! there were plenty of videos for me to borrow-plenty there was reading material- plenty I felt bulshitted now, tired of the arrogant 'I have something you don't' gig I went to the old ex premie site where the k techniques are described with accompanying photos of guy with baragan color xeroxed them blew them up and am getting them laminated so as to have them visible, available and to empower myself away from the elitist, secretive hiding zone right now, I just got back from pasadena there are some things I wonder about and I just keep reading here when I can thanks to this site for having the techniques available to me- clearly, nothing vague no empty promises, leading me on trying to string me along and eventually get me strung out thanks. lea Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 07:36:54 (EST)
From: Disappointed Email: None To: lea Subject: pasadena Message: So I did not participate in the international downlink, but from what I've heard it was'nt so 'perfect'. 77,000 from 50 countries is not allot of people. That's approx. 1,500 per country. Maharaj used to draw larger crowds, especially in the 1970's. The Pope gets a bigger crowd then that from one country. Not that I care too much about the Pope either. I think it's sad how what was once a free-flowing festival, at least that was my early experience with M, has deteriorated into a tightly controlled ego trip. I've learned that some of those who were brave enough to post under their real name on this ex-premie website, were not allowed to attend the so-called downlink event, ie. Gail D. and others. Another lie, for HE says you are always welcome to come back.... Not so. You may be stopped at the door if they know you've posted some anti-M sentiments here. I think I just need to get away from the pro and the anti Maharaji messages and leave the court of the Perfectly Confused Master once and for all. I once had high hopes and deeply desired Maharaji to be as the TRUTH and LIGHT of the world, but after more than 20 years it aint what it is, was or said to be. I have found the food that fills my soul and I am enjoying my life, but not in Maharaji's court. Please don't give me any advice. I don't need perspective on this. I'm just posting this and then I'll go away. I'm disappointed but I'm free of the devotee-trap. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 12:18:20 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Disappointed Subject: To Disappointed-Thanks (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 19:36:03 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: Disappointed Subject: pasadena and a note to Gail Message: I think I just need to get away from the pro and the anti Maharaji messages and leave the court of the Perfectly Confused Master once and for all. I once had high hopes and deeply desired Maharaji to be as the TRUTH and LIGHT of the world, but after more than 20 years it aint what it is, was or said to be. I have found the food that fills my soul and I am enjoying my life, but not in Maharaji's court. Well said. But I've found some great friends and new insights here, so I like to stick around and see what's next. Gail, I recently 'came out'--well, at least CD knows me, and my one remaining premie friend is no more--so I have a feeling that if I'd have gone to Pasadena, I wouldn't have been let in. I lived the experience of being turned away through you. And I feel damn fine that they won't let me in cuz I can't swallow that stuff anymore anyway. The last time I saw Maharaji in Long Beach I slept through his inane chatter. Seeing my old friends was fun, but I doubt whether they'd like me now after I've bad-mouthed Maharaji here. I sort of fizzled out, though. I didn't do it with a bang like you did. With love, eb p.s. to bb--I'm not a witch and don't talk about my tit like that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 01:08:30 (EST)
From: srb Email: None To: eb Subject: Bubble bubble toil and CD Message: Would hubby agree with that claim? Luckily Selene forgave me for the -ahem- mammary appendage comment. I got calls on the answering machine before and after the 'event'. People don't see me at videos and most have no idea about the website-I think. They miss me cause I was such a pillar of the 'community' Are you from san diego Like CD? He rattted you out no doubt to the upper dust. Try casting a spell on him! It can be your first. Make him see that Alabama Getaway is an awful song. I owe him a tape. 1999 for sure Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 02:31:56 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: srb Subject: the bubble Message: >Are you from san diego Like CD? He rattted you out no doubt to the upper dust. What you have stated is pure bubble of nothing. Ellen knows better. You might apologize or just send me some music. Thanks. I went to Pasadena. There was never any check for a seat ticket. The event had a great positive vibe focused on the gift of life. Thats what its all about. Love and gratitude. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 11:43:03 (EST)
From: Ellen Email: None To: CD Subject: Chris-Are you saying... Message: that although they wouldn't allow Gail in to view a satellite transmission, they would've allowed me in to watch the *live* version? Maybe Gail's more of a radical than I. My 'last remaining premie friend' left some very pointed angry voicemail messages for me about posting here. She indicated (in rather harsh terms) that she felt I was being led astray by the angry, immature, and mean-spirited group who post on the Forum. Actually, I'm a sucker for sexy lawyers like Jim Heller and intellectual giants like Scott T. and sober yet stark raving philosophers like Bill. Chris, please say hello to Stan for me when you see him--I always liked him a lot, but I'll probably not see him again. Ellen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 14:50:38 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Ellen Subject: Chris-Are you saying... Message: Yeah, you could have walked right in at Pasadena and grabbed an empty seat. Of course the live event will be distributed on video. Its not a big secret. And don't believe any BS about me badmouthing you. Thats not my style. You know me better. Cheers, Chris Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 15:22:01 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: CD Subject: If the Omnishunt can... Message: bad-mouth me, you can too if you want. Lord knows I hear it from my kids daily. But it is as you say: I know that's not your style. With love, Ellen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 13:32:45 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: CD Subject: no seat ticket check? Message: you are ignorant of the process didn't you have to pre-register? if you did then you had a seat assigned to you. ok, you might get away sitting in a better seat if the person who was assigned that seat didn't show up or was sitting elsewhere. However, if that person showed up they would ask you to move. If you didn't move they would contact an usher who has a list of everyone in the hall and their assigned seat. I know this because I was an usher. now, I'll admit for the satellite broadcase maybe there are no assigned seats and is first come, first serve. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 14:45:05 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: barney Subject: usher talk Message: >you are ignorant of the process I know quite well what the process is. >now, I'll admit for the satellite broadcase maybe there are no assigned seats and is first come, first serve. I had a first hand experience of how it went. You have your ideas. The seating thing was no big deal, not a secret and not worth a dissertation. Nobody ever asked me to show a ticket. Yes there was a small fight behind me over a few seats but it got resolved. The lady who won sure had a piercing voice - g. And through it all I ended up with a good experience at the event. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 05:19:40 (EST)
From: op Email: None To: srb Subject: Bubble bubble toil and CD Message: They miss me cause I was such a pillar of the 'community' HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 07:31:57 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: CD Subject: Seat check in Toronto Message: They did check seats in Toronto. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 08:54:48 (EST)
From: srb Email: None To: op Subject: CD and OP Message: The local community OP darling. And sure I was. Always at local videos, Always quick with the caring about all of them, Always a smile to cheer the world weary premie friends, Always remembering what this one or that one was interested in, A very good freind and that counts for a lot when you are wavering because it's been so many years and tonight we watched rome 95 or malasia96 or soulth africa 94 or whatever and you feel like it's always out of reach and he doesn't seem to really be getting anywhere. You never were left kind of ho-hum after videos? CD, ok dokey, you aren't the leak on that one. Your tape is late, but 1999 for sure. Mili too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Dec 15, 1998 at 13:03:37 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: op Subject: How can you be like that? Message: Why do you laugh? If SRB attended MJ programs, videos, helped with the video venue, had his/her hand in the $$ to share the financial burden, and so on and so forth, why would he/she be considered a boon to the community. MJ used to say we were gifts to each other. I heard him. Think about it. If SRB had died, people in his community would have rallied for the funeral trip, would they not? Wouldn't you shed some tears if a premie you have known and loved for years suddenly died. Can't you see that the 'premie community' pretends that dissenters have died Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 19:47:14 (EST)
From: VP back from vacation Email: None To: op Subject: Not very nice, op Message: Op, I'm shocked you said that to burke. Not nice at all. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |