Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 32

From: Dec 10, 1998

To: Dec 22, 1998

Page: 1 Of: 5



Jean-Michel -:- 80s & 90s history update -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 04:15:53 (EST)
__JW -:- 80s & 90s history update -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 11:07:39 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- 80s & 90s history update -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 19:13:40 (EST)
__Katie -:- 80s & 90s history update -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 14:18:02 (EST)
____Jethro -:- 80s & 90s history update -:- Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 03:51:46 (EST)
______archives -:- a cup of covered water for J.M -:- Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 09:22:45 (EST)
________Jean-Michel -:- a cup of covered water for J.M -:- Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 03:38:11 (EST)
__________JM -:- Beginning of videos frenzy? -:- Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 06:37:31 (EST)
____________Jerry -:- Beginning of videos frenzy? -:- Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 10:32:02 (EST)
____________Gail -:- Beginning of videos frenzy? -:- Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 20:34:23 (EST)
______________Jean-Michel -:- Please Gail HELP! -:- Tues, Dec 22, 1998 at 03:43:39 (EST)
________________Gail -:- Please Gail HELP! -:- Tues, Dec 22, 1998 at 18:48:53 (EST)
__________JW -:- a cup of covered water for J.M -:- Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 08:58:53 (EST)
____________Jean-Michel -:- a cup of covered wine! for J.M -:- Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 12:01:34 (EST)

Jim -:- Premie humour -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 21:30:18 (EST)
__shp -:- ex-premie humour -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 21:52:21 (EST)
____ham -:- humour -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 04:24:55 (EST)
__david m -:- Premie humour -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 22:37:04 (EST)
____gerry -:- Premie humour -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 01:59:01 (EST)
______david m -:- Premie humour -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 08:54:52 (EST)
____Katie -:- What you can do -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 02:40:25 (EST)
______david m -:- What you can do -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 08:56:55 (EST)
________Katie -:- Thanks, david -:- Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 14:38:59 (EST)
__dv -:- Premie humour -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 23:57:09 (EST)
__seymour -:- Premie humour -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 07:49:47 (EST)

Jethro -:- AC/DC anyone? -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 02:55:33 (EST)
__Jerry -:- Have you rec'd Conocimiento? -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 12:16:11 (EST)
____Mike -:- Hey Jerry -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 14:42:58 (EST)
______Jerry -:- Now I understand -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 15:30:15 (EST)
________seymour_t -:- Now I understand -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 15:39:58 (EST)
__________Mike -:- I wish I always had... -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 16:58:13 (EST)
____________Laura -:- Wrong Spanish verb -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 21:06:03 (EST)
______________Brian -:- Good point - Hey, OP! -:- Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 00:13:03 (EST)
________________Jean-Michel -:- Good point - Hey, OP! -:- Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 03:54:01 (EST)
__________________Brian -:- What are French buying into? -:- Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 09:37:49 (EST)
____________________Jean-Michel -:- What are French buying into? -:- Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 11:06:54 (EST)

Eve 6 -:- Maharaji the Leech -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 02:54:56 (EST)
__seymour -:- Maharaji the Leech -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 15:50:16 (EST)
__x -:- Maharaji the Leech -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 16:16:32 (EST)

Jim -:- Now who cld this be, Brian? -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 21:31:51 (EST)
__Brian -:- Now who cld this be, Brian? -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 21:50:32 (EST)
____nigel -:- Nili isn't Willi or me... -:- Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 16:13:55 (EST)
__JW -:- Do You HAVE to Listen to it? -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 22:45:31 (EST)
____Nili -:- Do You HAVE to Listen to it? -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 23:03:56 (EST)
__Brian -:- Woe is me -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 20:16:10 (EST)
____Laura -:- Woe is me -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 21:15:04 (EST)
______curly -:- Oh woe is moe -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 01:06:22 (EST)
________ham -:- Oh -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 04:36:23 (EST)
__Jerry -:- Now I'm sick -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 17:31:33 (EST)
____Nili -:- Now I'm sick-JIM? -:- Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 09:14:45 (EST)
______Katie -:- Practical info. -:- Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 13:55:13 (EST)
________barney -:- PJ & Garbage -:- Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 15:10:26 (EST)
__________Katie -:- PJ & Garbage -:- Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 16:02:12 (EST)

El Nino -:- Sex for an attention getter. -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 15:08:24 (EST)
__Brian -:- Sex for an attention getter. -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 15:16:13 (EST)
____ham -:- always in the future. -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 15:49:36 (EST)
______Brian -:- always in the future. -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 16:00:30 (EST)
________ham -:- always in the future. -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 02:37:30 (EST)
__________x -:- always in the future. -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 16:11:54 (EST)
____________skeptic -:- clear explanations -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 21:06:52 (EST)
______________ham -:- clear explanations -:- Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 01:48:32 (EST)
____________ham -:- x-cell-ent -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 06:24:24 (EST)
______________Jim -:- Not today, thanks -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 11:38:52 (EST)
________________gerry -:- Not today, thanks -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 12:39:46 (EST)
________________Jim -:- Found it -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 12:43:07 (EST)
__________________Jim -:- try again -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 12:51:19 (EST)
______________Jerry -:- Fat Boy Slim -:- Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 09:34:36 (EST)
__dv -:- Sex for an attention getter. -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 02:06:17 (EST)

El Nino -:- Holi -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 14:37:09 (EST)
__Selene -:- Holi -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 22:57:39 (EST)

Jethro -:- British TV program -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 12:35:28 (EST)
__Selene -:- British TV program -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 22:59:19 (EST)
____Jethro -:- British TV program -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 02:41:00 (EST)

Helen -:- Detente -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:30:55 (EST)
__Selene -:- Detente -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:39:57 (EST)
__peter -:- better than Henry -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:52:30 (EST)
__ham -:- Detente -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 06:28:29 (EST)
____Helen -:- All my ex-es live in Texas -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 07:49:12 (EST)
______gerry -:- just two points. Helen. -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 10:15:58 (EST)
________Helen -:- just two points. Helen. -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 15:39:39 (EST)
__shp -:- Detente -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 13:26:39 (EST)
____Helen -:- Detente -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 15:44:34 (EST)
______Selene -:- Detente -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 23:08:20 (EST)
________chr -:- Detente -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 01:06:44 (EST)
________Helen -:- Detente -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 07:31:21 (EST)
______shp -:- Detente -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 09:12:52 (EST)
________Helen -:- Philosophies and junk -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 10:03:29 (EST)
________Mike -:- Hey shp -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 10:22:54 (EST)
__________shp -:- Hey mike -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 21:43:10 (EST)
____________Jim -:- shp, why can't you hear me? -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 21:53:35 (EST)
______________shp -:- i hear you loud and clear -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 22:02:22 (EST)
________________Jim -:- No, you don't mean that -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 22:26:42 (EST)
__________________shp -:- i made bookmarks -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 22:53:40 (EST)
____________________Helen -:- HA! (nt) -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 22:56:21 (EST)
__________________Helen -:- SHEESH -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 22:54:11 (EST)
____________________shp -:- SHEESH -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 22:58:47 (EST)
______________________Helen -:- Don't know about -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 23:06:12 (EST)
________________________Jim -:- Smiley-face death mask -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 23:20:46 (EST)
__________________________Helen -:- Smiley-face death mask -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 23:28:20 (EST)
____________________________ham -:- Darwin is god! -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 07:54:58 (EST)
______________________________shp -:- freedom of expression -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 09:30:25 (EST)
________________ham -:- i hear you loud and clear -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 08:05:12 (EST)
__________________shp -:- i hear you loud and clear -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 09:39:35 (EST)
____________________Mike -:- You CAN see vibration... -:- Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 09:48:25 (EST)

Selene -:- a review ... LOTU -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:13:30 (EST)
__Selene -:- ps - piking tummies -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:17:43 (EST)
____Video from the archives. -:- Want to sees this one? -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:25:35 (EST)
______Selene -:- Want to sees this one? -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:33:55 (EST)
______Jim -:- Thanks, I'd love to see it -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 11:10:17 (EST)
________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Thanks, I'd love to see it -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 11:50:04 (EST)
________gerry -:- Thanks, I'd love to see it -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 12:01:32 (EST)
__________eb -:- Thanks, I'd love to see it -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 13:22:26 (EST)
____________bill -:- it's yours.(nt) -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 23:16:26 (EST)
____________VP -:- Thanks, I'd love to see it -:- Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 00:07:54 (EST)
________bill -:- Katie------ -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 23:36:05 (EST)
__________Katie -:- Bill.... -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 10:24:11 (EST)
____Helen -:- ps - piking tummies -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:37:58 (EST)
____eb -:- ps - piking tummies LOL! NT -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 13:26:24 (EST)
__Selene -:- a review ... LOTU -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 00:07:30 (EST)
__srb -:- the holy family -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 00:09:49 (EST)
____Selene -:- the glasses -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 00:36:15 (EST)
______bill -:- the glasses -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 23:22:11 (EST)
________Selene -:- the other bill -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 23:56:17 (EST)
__________bill -:- the other one -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 00:45:14 (EST)
__ham -:- a review ... LOTU -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 06:18:12 (EST)
____Selene -:- loss of hope -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 12:03:12 (EST)

Dan Meyer -:- What happened to GMJ Q&As? -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 20:30:30 (EST)
__Jerry -:- What happened to GMJ Q&As? -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 21:11:44 (EST)
____chr -:- What happened to GMJ Q&As? -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 22:22:08 (EST)
______JW -:- What happened to GMJ Q&As? -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 13:00:42 (EST)
________chr -:- What happened to GMJ Q&As? -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 17:50:59 (EST)
__________JW -:- What happened to GMJ Q&As? -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 22:14:42 (EST)
__Selens -:- What happened to GMJ Q&As? -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 00:53:25 (EST)
____cyberD -:- What happened to GMJ Q&As? -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 13:02:44 (EST)
______JW -:- What happened to GMJ Q&As? -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 13:35:49 (EST)
________cyberD -:- What happened to GMJ Q&As? -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 14:15:30 (EST)
__________gerry -:- What happened to GMJ Q&As? -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 14:32:27 (EST)
__________JW -:- What happened to GMJ Q&As? -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 16:22:37 (EST)
____________cyberD -:- What happened to GMJ Q&As? -:- Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 03:06:34 (EST)

Jim -:- Game over, we lost -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 19:14:15 (EST)
__Mickey the Pharisee -:- Game over, we lost -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 19:25:43 (EST)
____Selene -:- Game over, we lost -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 23:23:12 (EST)
__Jim -:- A new start -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 19:26:29 (EST)
____The Big M -:- prove your love with $$$ -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 21:41:05 (EST)
____blutarsky -:- A new start -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 21:43:37 (EST)
______eb -:- Yeah!!!!!! -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 13:36:36 (EST)
________dali -:- I am the peaceable lobster now -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 21:20:46 (EST)
__________dali -:- Surrealist Compliment Generato -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 05:05:14 (EST)
__________Melted Butter -:- I am the peaceable lobster now -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 09:15:05 (EST)
____ham -:- A new start with love -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 05:55:25 (EST)

Freddy -:- RajaJi's Star Enterprises Inc? -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 14:16:26 (EST)
__srb--The Elephant Chair. -:- Raja's death star...* -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 21:37:19 (EST)
____Freddy -:- Raja's death star...* -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 06:31:18 (EST)
______RT -:- Miami Dice -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 12:45:45 (EST)
________Gail -:- Did MJ ever invent/create? -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 17:08:20 (EST)
________dv -:- Miami Dice -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 01:17:44 (EST)
______bill -:- must be. -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 23:28:20 (EST)
____J -:- Raja's death star...* -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 06:37:10 (EST)
______Katie -:- Raja's death star...* -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 10:51:44 (EST)
________Gail -:- What ever happened to Claudia? -:- Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 14:52:47 (EST)
__________Katie -:- What ever happened to Claudia? -:- Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 16:05:15 (EST)
______private eye -:- Raja's death star...* -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 23:31:24 (EST)
________private eye -:- Raja's death star...* -:- Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 23:34:08 (EST)
__________JW -:- Really??? -:- Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 17:36:57 (EST)
__________dv -:- Raja's death star...* -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 01:23:01 (EST)
____dv -:- Raja's death star...* -:- Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 01:15:21 (EST)


Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 04:15:53 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 80s & 90s history update
Message:
Hi you all,

I've just discovered the new 'history' pages, and I think the
80s & 90s deserve something better.

I'm sure that the 'recent' exes like me could try to get our memories together and make something out of them.

The first time westerners got invited in India after the early 70s was in nov or december 1980 on the new land near Delhi.
At that time the BM had the rejoices (when was that?), those huge k reviews with him, for 1 or 2 years for all the premies in the world.
He also had these series of 'dinners' with him, was it before?
Then the 'part-time' instructors trip for a few years...
Then the video 'shadow tours' started, and the new video frenzy.
Can you remember some dates?
I'll have to check in the videos that I still own, I also have plenty of videos lists.
The BM also had those programs in Amaroo, in La Tierra...
Some new full time instructors.
Fired all the Indian mahatmas 5 or 6 years ago.
Fired all the national 'coordinators', then the new 'contact' trip, then his new 'international' staff....
His secretaries, fired them, then got Premlata behind the desk, then again an international staff.
All those intl meetings ...
The 'participation' meetings with him, with his video-computer-slide-show, remember?
The building of the new residence in Malibu (5 years ago?)

What else? More crazy stuff you remember?

We should be able to recall all this ....
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 11:07:39 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: 80s & 90s history update
Message:
J-M:

Quite a few of us were gone by the mid-80s. All I can say is I left in 1983 and by that point the 'dinners' had not started, and I certainly do not recall getting invited to India in 1980, so I think that might have been later too. I also don't recall 'rejoices' (what was that?)

All that stuff sounds interesting, J-M. I think an accurate history is very important. Maybe you could post some topics and what you remember and maybe people can add to it, correct and comment.
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 19:13:40 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: 80s & 90s history update
Message:
I left in 1983 and by that point the 'dinners' had not started, and I certainly do not recall getting invited to India in 1980, so I think that might have been later too. I also don't recall 'rejoices' (what was that?)

The 'dinners': that was maybe in 84 or 85.
I was one of the lucky ones 'invited' in India since the beginning. I think that only the most 'dedicated' ones were 'invited' at that time, the national coordinators would submit some kind of lists to M for approval. You of course had to be able to afford it. There were not that many active premies left at that time.
Rejoices: M had big k reviews in most of the countries. EV would typically rent facilities with a big hall for satsang for everybody, a few thousands of seats for most of the places, and some smaller halls in the same building for the k reviews in small groups. At that time we were already quite some part-time instructors helping to show the techniques to everybody one by one. M would come to every hall and explain the technique, then the instructors would show the 'light' technique etc. And the BM would watch the premies practicing, never practicing himself. That was between 85 & 89 I guess.
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 14:18:02 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: 80s & 90s history update
Message:
Dear J-M,
I would love to have more recent information on the 80's and 90's. The problem I had when editing this section (JW's history stopped in the early 80's) was that I didn't have definite dates or time frames (plus I have no personal knowledge of the actual events, and of course, JW didn't either). If you and/or other more recent exes can come up with something, that would be great.

Katie
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Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 03:51:46 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: 80s & 90s history update
Message:
Hi Katie,
I was a Rejoice in Birmingham UK in 1988. We were told the purpose of the rejoices were to clarify the trechniques of knowledge by prem himself. This was done because so many mahatmas, initiators, instructors had caused` much confusion.

Well, he went thru the techniques(which, by the way, were exactly the same as I'd been doing). I must admit that I did peak(I mean peek) and saw him doing the light technique(oooops I mean number one). Actually loads of people were peaking so that they could see him.

He aslo did one of his poetry readings, which was abismal. Afterwards everyone went around saying how incredible that HE read us HIS poetry(barf).

I don't remember if there was a question and answer session, but there was someone there who tried to ask him a question...it was something about jesus. He cut the person short and said that this was HIS meeting....and something else which I don't remember.

One of the organisers of the rejoices in the UK told me that they had to hire a special room for prem so he could go off and have a smoke.

Regards Jethro
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Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 09:22:45 (EST)
From: archives
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: a cup of covered water for J.M
Message:
anything you want great one.
times, dates, transcripts.
and also souveniers and tickets.
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Date: Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 03:38:11 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: archives
Subject: a cup of covered water for J.M
Message:
The part-time instructor business started in 1988 (US) & 89 Europe.
When did it end? That famous Reigate's garage meeting where he fired everybody (for Europe anyway)? I guess the same thing happened in the US. He was really pissed with all of us, still don't know why! He would say that we didn't do anything good. There was in fact very few people receiving k, and the situation didn't improve later. For a year or 2, it's been a big thrill to receive k from the BM himself, and lots of new people came in the West, but then it decreased again, and I think there are even less people receiving k now than at that time!

The 77,000 who've been watching the satellite video include all those Indians premies & asp, I'm curious to know how many people in the US & Europe attended the event! Will you dare give the figures Mr Rawat/EV?

When did the rejoices start 88? 89? 90?

What about those dinners? I guess that was more or less supposed to be some kind of darshan. Everybody would stupidely watch him for 1 hour or 2, sitting behind a table, can you imagine this?
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Date: Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 06:37:31 (EST)
From: JM
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Beginning of videos frenzy?
Message:
Was it during the Pacific tour in 94, when the BM rerquested ALL his discourses to be available and screened in every community (shadow tours)?
Anyone to confirm?
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Date: Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 10:32:02 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: JM
Subject: Beginning of videos frenzy?
Message:
I think it was earlier than '94 when everything went video, and premies no longer gave satsang. I'm thinking '91 or '92. At least that's the way I recall it in New York City.
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Date: Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 20:34:23 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: JM
Subject: Beginning of videos frenzy?
Message:
Last darshan in N.A. - Miami, July 1984

1987 - Rejoice Programs - Ryetown, NY, Grenville, FL, ??, FL, L (I can't remember where the rest were around here)

In 1987, I went to a live video-phone feed of MJ's birthday party. There was no satsang. He had a bunch of entertainers. Premlata sang 'My Future's So Bright, I Gotta Wear Shades. Hansia told the joke much to his parents chagrin 'How is a homosexual like an M&M candy. They both melt in your mouth not in your hand.'

After that, MJ started doing more programs.

In 1989, we saw a couple of videos at a very high price. In the late spring 1990, he sent out a package of five videos (the suggested donation was $500 which I foolishly paid). By 1992, we were getting all the videos including the Hindi translation ones. The price had come down to $35 for communities here in Canada and $30 for individual purchase. Maybe it was later for you folks in France. Were all the videos translated into French?
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Date: Tues, Dec 22, 1998 at 03:43:39 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Please Gail HELP!
Message:
Maybe it was later for you folks in France. Were all the videos translated into French?

We did translate all of the videos since the very beginning.
We had some kind of 'live' translation during the video projections since the beginning (for those that were not dubbed).

We've recorded and duplicated the videos with the translation (subtitle, and then dubbing) as much as we could in the 80s and early 90s, and then we took the challenge (end of 93) to dubb (and duplicate) ALL OF THEM. I've been in charge of this process for years.

BTW, Gail, could you help in the above history udate thread?
I've sort of started a canvas, and trying to find the most significant events for the 80s and 90s.
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Date: Tues, Dec 22, 1998 at 18:48:53 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Please Gail HELP!
Message:
Yup! I'd be glad to. I will start with 1980 and work my way up. I send it out in a few days.
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Date: Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 08:58:53 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: a cup of covered water for J.M
Message:
What about those dinners? I guess that was more or less supposed to be some kind of darshan. Everybody would stupidely watch him for 1 hour or 2, sitting behind a table, can you imagine this?

I have spoken with a couple of people who still consider themselves premies who say the 'dinner' period was really difficult for them. Apparently, Big M had these bizarre dinners were they ate meat and drank alcohol and the premies were invited. It was like Big M was trying to destroy the 'god image' by just hanging out with the premies. But a bunch of premies split because he wasn't even talking about knowledge anymore. Plus, from what I understand, that period was short-lived and he went back to doing programs with him up on a throne after that. Both the premies I talked to have no idea what the hell he was trying to do in that 'dinne/party period.'
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Date: Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 12:01:34 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: a cup of covered wine! for J.M
Message:
Apparently, Big M had these bizarre dinners were they ate meat and drank alcohol and the premies were invited. It was like Big M was trying to destroy the 'god image' by just hanging out with the premies.

Exactly. Now that we're talking about it, it's obvious that the BM was trying to convey the same thing he was trying to convey during the instructors trainings: he tried to get rid of that God image, without any success.
The emphasis was on the inner k only, and the relationship with the master, which was supposed to be only some kind of internal thing. The famous 'triangle'.
But most of these new instructors were the most crazy devoted premies, and never behave themselves.
He would also eat meat and drink alcoolic beverages in front of us during the instructors trainings, and that the moment I finally quit my vegetarian diet, like lots of premies.

that period was short-lived and he went back to doing programs with him up on a throne after that

For some time, 1 year or 2, maybe 3, he would give satsang standing behind a small desk, I don't remember the name of the item, the kind of stuff speakers usually use, wearing shoes (can you imagine this?) whilst giving satsang....

After some time he started to sit again on some nice office chair.
The throne was really the huge delirious stage he has for big events.
And he couldn't avoid the fact that most of the premies went to India from time to time, where the whole show was still going on, with Arti and the works.
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 21:30:18 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Premie humour
Message:
Reading the premies' syrupy gunk on ELK I have to wonder, is that how I would sound if I'd stuck around this long? The answer, I'm afraid, is a sobering 'yes'. What the hell?

The cult members are starting to look like 19th century women given to 'hysteria' and fainting spells as a mode of personal expression. Proudly wearing their Visions Int'l blinders (?) they coast down the road to who-knows-where, oblivious to the obvious signs that this trip is sublimely foolish.

They have no sense of irony! Oooooo, that's chilling! Take this new greeting, 'Happy New Breath!' These guys are serious about it. Go look on ELK, it's cropping up all over the place. And how about this ongoing bad poetry contest? How much sugar would a child put in a chocolate cake? Yes, exactly!

In the end, I think the thing that makes most people feel so superior to cult members is that most people, happy or sad, succesful or not, have a sense of humour. They can swirl things around in their mind, let thoughts freefall in bizarre juxtaposition and blast their minds with sprays, sometimes, fountains, of entertainment. Cult members can't do that. They have all the equipment but lack the authorization. Indded, they're so thirsty for a good laugh, it seems, that when the cult leader gives them the okay to giggle a bit (i.e. when HE makes a funny) they go crazy, like nuns on shoreleave.

If there are any premies reading this I'd love to ask you to consider this question: is it ever okay to laugh at Maharaji? Yes I know, he's so full of love, blah, blah, blah, so noble, etc. But even the great rulers in history had court jesters, didn't they? You know, people charged with making sure the kings they served didn't get TOO full of themselves. What does Maharaji have, WHO does Maharaji have to keep his mind in check? No one, of course.

Can you imagine if Maharaji went out drinking with some of his 'friends'. Say they all loosened up a bit and started teasing him a bit. Can one tease Maharaji? Has he ever allowed it? I know Donner told me he once tried to tease Maharaji for 'bogarting' a joint they were smoking. Well, actually, the way I think Donner told it to me, Maharaji didn't say much of anything and Donner didn't press the point. Maybe Maharaji just needs all his premie friends to surprise him and rent the Friar's Club one night for a big 'roast'. They can even hire Don Rickles as MC. Now that's a fundraiser I'd be happy to pay my $60 Canadian for. Or purchase the video. Or both.

Think about it, all the ex premies can come (like ex wives or business partners) and tear little strips off him. All with humour of course, let's not forget. Rickles could read from past press clippings or satsangs. There's got to be some good ad lib stuff there, wouldn't you think? They could even fly Bhole Ji and Bal Bhagwan Ji (d/b/a Guru Maharaj Ji) in for a bit of reunion. Maybe Claudia.

But, shit, it just won't happen, will it? Now I've gone and disappointed myself again for nothing. This page sucks.
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 21:52:21 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: ex-premie humour
Message:
'nuns on shoreleave' cracked me up.
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 04:24:55 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: jim/shp
Subject: humour
Message:
I'd vowed not to duplicate anybody elses response here, but that one's so good it gets my vote for best laugh of the year here, alongside the wonderful Katie & others scam, the one where he turned up outside the restaurant in his limo, then as I say this I'm thinking of all the wonders of willi kranz(boy have I got something to learn from you nige about communicating with women!).The wonderful Larkin. Nigel do you ever write scripts for tv or do stand up comedy? Then there is my other fave, the Rev Hammond-Smythe from his padded cell, maybe a bit dark for some but I have a special affection for him, but I can't think who to thank for that one personally, know someone said once who was his creator but it's slipped me brain.

Right with you on that one shp. Jim is that an original or from somewhere else, just in case I ever use it etc, copyright blah blah.

Re premie humour, when I was first getting into you know who's little package of k, me anarchist mates desperately tried to show me how dodgy it all was by taking the piss out of wide boy/del boy/mr spiv, the fake portentiousness of it all, but it was too late. It's taken 25 fucking years to get back my sense of humour in all areas of my life. The wonders of gm . Humourless new breath indeed.

Crucial post Jim, hope you have a wicked holiday, boy do you deserve it for the time you spend here, more importantly the effort you put into your communicative competence. Do you find any side-benefits in your job, from your discussions here?
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 22:37:04 (EST)
From: david m
Email: whaler32@aol.com
To: Jim
Subject: Premie humour
Message:
Hey Jim...
I've been reading your posts for quite a few months now and let me tell you this one is your best... Right to the point and i believe thats where we all want to go...im standing right next to you ... If there is any more help i can give to you or Brian or Katie or anybody else ...Not to omit anyone... let me know I gave my whole life before this is nothing...peace dave
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 01:59:01 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: david m
Subject: Premie humour
Message:
>If there is any more help i can give to you or Brian or Katie or anybody else ...Not to omit anyone.

Dave I could use a few hunnerd grand if yer serious...
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 08:54:52 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Premie humour
Message:
Hey gerry....checks in the mail
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 02:40:25 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: david m
Subject: What you can do
Message:
Hi David M - thanks for the offer of help. What would be really great (and I want to remind everyone else about this too) is if you could write your Journeys entry (yours should be VERY interesting). I think they are really helpful to people - I am still hearing from people about mine, which I wrote about a year and a half ago.

Thanks much,
Katie
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 08:56:55 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: What you can do
Message:
Katie....
Ive been trying for a while now and you know what ...thats the hardest part but it will be done soon...peace david
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Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 14:38:59 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: david m
Subject: Thanks, david
Message:
Hi david - I appreciate it. I know it's not easy, but I bet yours will be VERY interesting. If you have any questions about it, please feel free to e-mail me.
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 23:57:09 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Premie humour
Message:
Don't give up, Jim. I think M's trying to find a way out of this mess. A roast may be a good suggestion. How bout a satellite roast?

Maybe Ted Koppell can help. I mean, Monica Lewis-Monica Lewinski? What a lead in!
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 07:49:47 (EST)
From: seymour
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Premie humour
Message:
they coast down the road to who-knows-where, oblivious to the obvious signs that this trip
is sublimely foolish

Sad but true. At least posts such as yours and other ex's may have some influence and help them to see the foolishness of their situation. I have said before, that when I was a premie I was never really seriously challenged with either a humorous or reasonable argument. Perhaps if there had been something like this open forum around I would have escaped sooner. Trouble is, these premies don't even know that they need to escape from the boat that is carrying them down an ever-narrowing river into darkest dullness.

As for the poetry, it really is awful. BTW has anyone posted any of M's poetry.
I have a certain fondness for them as they played an important role in my final dropping out. There was a period when he seemed to always include a poem or three in his talks to the masses.
And what happened to the book he was going to write?

But to return to the humour
they're so thirsty for a good laugh, it seems, that when the cult leader gives them the okay to giggle a bit (i.e. when HE makes a funny) they go crazy, like nuns on shoreleave.
Great stuff, Jim - I seem to remember feeling a bit like that.
As for going out on the town with M, you're right - it will never happen.
It must be so weird being the lord of the universe. You can't
really have mates or go out drinking. It's like the school bully(albeit a benevolent one), he might have a gang around him but it is only because they would rather be with him than against him, and the unequal relationship is based more on fear than anything else. Everyone will laugh at his jokes but they always have to watch what they say and do. Mind their p's and q's. etc.
Not the sort of night out I would enjoy.
When you have real friends you know that you can call them all the names under the sun.. ' go and get the drinks you fat ugly pig ' etc. and, because there is a bond it is all the more fun. When you have someone who is supposed to be
superior they can never be a friend. I have friends who I look up to for their talent or their knowledge of a particular subject but I can still insult them and make a fool of myself with them. This is different to partying with a 'guru' who is supposed to be on a higher plane? This lack of equality/empathy is just one of the many drawbacks of authoritarianism.
I'm just glad that I can enjoy Christmas without those superior
feelings that 'I know what it's really all about'. Being a premie
you tend to treat non-premies as lower down the ladder, in a similar way to how you are treated by your 'guru'.
Cheers
Seymour
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 02:55:33 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: AC/DC anyone?
Message:
I just looked at ELK and found the following by Daniela from Uruguay.

'This is a short message.
I could just submit the title: AC/DC, and [in Spanish] it would be complete. That is the shortest description of the awesome process I feel is taking place every day. Nowadays, everything I can remember happening can be divided into 'Antes del Conocimiento' (AC) (meaning: before Knowledge) and 'Despúes del Conocimiento' (DC) (meaning: after Knowledge). It is that clear-cut for me.

Thank you'

What a wonderful entry into the world of duality.

There are many people in this country(UK) who are AC/DC without knowledge.
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 12:16:11 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Have you rec'd Conocimiento?
Message:
I'll never understand what people who are crazy about Knowledge see in it. Never. Fortunately, I don't feel I'm missing much. But, to listen to people like Daniela, you'd think that with Knowledge, every dream, every desire, is fulfilled. I can't speak for Daniella but I know for me that's just not true. Knowledge changes nothing. In fact, I feel much better now that I'm no longer practicing it.

Happy New Breath, Daniella.
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 14:42:58 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Hey Jerry
Message:
Jerry: If you have no 'expectations,' then K fulfills them all! If you have no desires, then K fulfills them all. If you have no real questions, then K is the answer to everything.... he he he :-)
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 15:30:15 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Now I understand
Message:
This is actually the party line, Mike. Shut down everything through singular focus, all desire, all expectation, all questions, all everything. Then, when you've achieved this impossible state, ahhh, Nirvana. Peace. Love. So so beautiful. Mmmmm.

Maybe it can be done, I don't know. I can't do it. I get so bored after about 5 minutes, I start daydreaming for the next 10 and then its time to move onto the next technique where I get bored after 5 minutes, start daydreaming.... I'd really rather do something else with my time, something that gives me more enjoyment. I am so glad I don't feel it's necessary to meditate to find happiness, anymore. I was hoodwinked into believing this for more years than I care to admit.
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 15:39:58 (EST)
From: seymour_t
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Now I understand
Message:
I'd really rather do something else with my time, something that gives me more enjoyment. I am so glad I don't feel it's necessary to meditate to find happiness, anymore. I was hoodwinked into believing this for more years than I care to admit.

I couldn't agree more.
Jolly good post Jerry.
Meditation can be quite relaxing I suppose, but it is not the way to happiness and it certainly has nothing to do with god and all that religious mumbo jumbo(IMHO).
Seymour
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 16:58:13 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: seymour_t
Subject: I wish I always had...
Message:
Seymour & Jerry: I was hoping you would get the irony of it all. When I re-read the post, I said, 'uh oh, this could be interpreted as satsang coming from a premie' rather than being a ironic statement.... yecccchhhhh!
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 21:06:03 (EST)
From: Laura
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Wrong Spanish verb
Message:
Interesting use of the Spanish verb conocer, which means to know someone. The verb to know some 'thing', or have knowledge of the 'thing' is saber.

So in the Spanish language, Knowledge is the knowledge of knowing someone and not something. Sorry to be redundant, want to make sure you understand.
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Date: Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 00:13:03 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Laura
Subject: Good point - Hey, OP!
Message:
In English we use the word 'knowledge' to indicate a knowing of facts OR people. The translation from English (Knowledge) to Spanish (Conocimiento) appears to indicate 'Knowledge' meaning Knowledge of a person, (whether 'self' or 'Maharaji'), rather than of facts, experience, etc.

But another question is: what was the meaning of the word used in Hindi and translated into Knowledge in English? Because the translation into Spanish may not have gone through English, but rather been straight from Hindi.

Does anyone out there know (in any sense) about this? Hey, OP! Are you out there?
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Date: Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 03:54:01 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Good point - Hey, OP!
Message:
They use the word 'updesh' in Hindi,
which litterally means 'the land/place/world beyond'. Paradise (from the greek) is exactly the same word.

When you receive 'updesh', you're taken to paradise ..... isn't it exactly what happened?

Then you fall from it ....
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Date: Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 09:37:49 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: What are French buying into?
Message:
They use the word 'updesh' in Hindi, which literally means 'the land/place/world beyond'. Paradise (from the greek) is exactly the same word.

'Paradise' may be the exact same word, but it wasn't the word chosen!!

I find it fascinating that the 'product' is tailored to different language/culture markets - that a canopener here is being presented as a paperweight elsewhere.

When Maharaji came west, he came to english-speaking countries and renamed what was being offered from a reachable 'paradise' to a comprehendable (realisable) 'knowledge'. Moving into the spanish-speaking market the product is labeled 'conocimiento', where aspirants are offered an introduction to a persona that they can come to 'know'. This is far more adaptable to the personality cult surrounding Maharaji - person-based, rather than understanding-based. Must be harder to become a spanish-speaking ex! Your understanding may falter, but the fraud lives on. In fact, you're not even expecting to understand anything - only to become acquainted with Maharaji!

What are the French buying into, JM?
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Date: Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 11:06:54 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: What are French buying into?
Message:
Knowledge has always been translated into 'Connaissance',
exactly as ambiguous as knowledge.
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 02:54:56 (EST)
From: Eve 6
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji the Leech
Message:
Tell those stories to me.
I’m dying to hear the things
You’ve done and seen
Farfetched as they may be.
You strike a smile in me.
Your stories ring of perjury.
Construed with
Self-empowering theme.

CHORUS

Suckin’ on my brain
You’re the teacher.
I’m the student.
Turning things around.
Your story’s not congruent.
Tabloid decoys, pitiful excuses,
Turning things around,
You’re turning things around.

A manic stunning scene
I’m taking notes.
You’re taking me away
Into your false reality.
I know your comfort lies
In lying to try to make
Your life make sense,
But you’re not making sense.

CHORUS

I’d say it aloud,
But I’m not allowed.
I see your head spin
Round and round.

Broken record talk tonight
Skip that needle
Back and forth on your mind.
Wearing out unconvincing lies.
Like a seediing dropped
From an old oak tree.
Your shade don’t hide
No sun from me.
Fake stories humour me.
It’s graduation time.

CHORUS
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 15:50:16 (EST)
From: seymour
Email: None
To: Eve 6
Subject: Maharaji the Leech
Message:
Hi Eve 6 ( why 6?),
It's nice to see some poetry on the forum, but you better watch out for Larkin - he might get jealous or think that you are trying to steal his position.
Good stuff here particularly ....
'You’re taking me away
Into your false reality.
I know your comfort lies
In lying to try to make
Your life make sense,
But you’re not making sense.'


None of it makes sense, but we still fall for it.
Cheers
Seymour
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 16:16:32 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Eve 6
Subject: Maharaji the Leech
Message:
Those are some pretty heavy lyrics, I'd kind of wondered what they were saying in that song. I wonder if they're about anyone specific? Are Eve 6 ex-premies?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 21:31:51 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Now who cld this be, Brian?
Message:
Here's another review of the premie compilation disc over on Amazon.com --
( A Real Link! ) :

'Nili@peacelove.com from 'Lost in the world' as we put it in our religion. , December 13, 1998

Guru Maharaji is my Lord and Savior-Your's too!!

Gosh! I can't tell you how many times I got to kiss his lotus feet and I am longing to see him and do it again. I know his mom disapproved of his materialistic ways, but she is dead now and Hey! His brother made a great album once too. This one is nicer and I know Ron clearfield the chello player. What a great musician he is. Really, he should get some money out of this but as usual, anything for maharaji is a gift to him. So, I hope the cd sells, but sorry Ron, better keep that day job. No profit is coming your way.'

Maybe some more of you guys might like to lend your support.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 21:50:32 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jim
Subject: Now who cld this be, Brian?
Message:
Not me. Looks suspiciously like Willi's work. Might be the 'Ni' in Nili@peacelove.com that causes me to think that, though. That and he's a slippery character...
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Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 16:13:55 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Brian
Subject: Nili isn't Willi or me...
Message:
But I don't mind the comparison, if he/she doesn't.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 22:45:31 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Do You HAVE to Listen to it?
Message:
I don't think I could handle that. Otherwise, I'd be happy to comment.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 23:03:56 (EST)
From: Nili
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Do You HAVE to Listen to it?
Message:
No you don't. Just post your response.
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 20:16:10 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jim
Subject: Woe is me
Message:
Maybe it's antigrace, but my post didn't make the cut. First I'm prevented from enjoyinglife, and now I've been given the cold shoulder by amazons!
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 21:15:04 (EST)
From: Laura
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Woe is me
Message:
I know what the cold shoulder thing feels like.
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 01:06:22 (EST)
From: curly
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: Oh woe is moe
Message:
You knuckleheads!
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 04:36:23 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: curly
Subject: Oh
Message:
Curly, if you took your tongs out, you might find you wouldn't be overheating.
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 17:31:33 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Now I'm sick
Message:
I came across 'Dream Manifestations' at a listening station in Barnes & Noble's music section one day. I was so impressed by it, I bought it, not knowing where my money was going. Now I hear it's ending up in Big M's pocket.

Unbelievable.
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Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 09:14:45 (EST)
From: Nili
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Now I'm sick-JIM?
Message:
Any way we can comment on Dream Manifestations?
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Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 13:55:13 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Nili
Subject: Practical info.
Message:
If it's on amazon.com - if they sell it - you can comment on it. Just do a music search by artist or album title on their site.

BTW, although I didn't comment on the premie album, I did look at the list of other albums bought by people who bought an album by one of the premie contributors (it was at the end of the review). This list included Garbage and PJ Harvey (two angry female artists), which REALLY surprised me. I got a good link to the reviews of the new Garbage album :)
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Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 15:10:26 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: PJ & Garbage
Message:
Katie, I'm glad you pointed that out about PJ Harvey and Garbage. Maybe Premies are cooler than we think. I, too, thought it was an odd mix of music.

But, I suppose that after listening to that bland new age, new agya elevator premie music you might need something stronger to blow the crud out of your speakers.
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Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 16:02:12 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: PJ & Garbage
Message:
My husband thinks that they're buying PJ and Garbage for their rebellious teenagers - who knows?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 15:08:24 (EST)
From: El Nino
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Sex for an attention getter.
Message:
Yesterday, a catholic priest asked me if I believed in god. My answer was truthful leaving no doubt as to where I stand on the issue. He then continued saying he understood I'm still searching for now. Funny isn't it? There is no doubt in his mind the final position has to be faith and anything else has to lead to this final point.

Believers, premies included, all seem to share the same certitude their superstitions aren't. I know altough my beliefs all are true-superstitions, they remain only that. Superstitions.

Everything else falls under the other category: false-superstitions. Those I don't believe.

Most of my time is spent classifying superstitions in these two categories and revising my classification. My life improved a great deal when I learned to use a computer.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 15:16:13 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: El Nino
Subject: Sex for an attention getter.
Message:
Hey! You left out the GOOD part!

Oh, well... I remember having the same certainty when I would give people satsang. They didn't know now, but they soon would. The whole world would know! Yippee!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 15:49:36 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: always in the future.
Message:
Yes indeed, phase 2 is always just about to happen.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 16:00:30 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: ham
Subject: always in the future.
Message:
Yes indeed, phase 2 is always just about to happen.

...and only requires yet MORE money for that to occur. Maharaji has seen enough money pass through his greedy hands that he should have been able to BUY us all our very own world peace by now. Must be letting the interest accrue in Switzerland. Should be enough any day now... any day now... just a little bit more money is all... you'll see... any day...
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 02:37:30 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: always in the future.
Message:
Brian, would you be able to make any kind of guesstimate just how MUCH money has gone through his hands, I know this would be very difficult, but just to the nearest 20 million?
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 16:11:54 (EST)
From: x
Email: x2000@goplay.com
To: ham
Subject: always in the future.
Message:
Hi Ham,
I just wanted to respond to a question you asked me in a lower thread. You asked me what kind of music I like, after I expressed my dislike of gmj's music.
I don't like any one kind of music, I just like what works for me. The thing I detest most is predictability and obvious patterns. I mean don't get me wrong, I like a lot of traditional classic rock and old standards, but I'm tired of them. I feel like there is a lot of staleness there. A lot of so called alternative is getting stale too.
I read with interest your posts about house music. I really like that kind of music a lot, although I don't know much about it. I listened to a Photek CD at a store where it was available. I remembered that you had reccomended it. It was a little far out for me, but I only listened to a little bit of a few songs,so I'll have to reserve judgement. There's a guy called T.Tauri that I heard on a compilation called Electric Manor
I really like this stuff, this CD has inspired me to try to learn how to make this kind of music. I'm serious, I'm ready to throw my electric guitar away. I'm sick of guitar, bass, drums, power chords and pentaonic scales type schlock rock, its time to move on. Phat beats rule! Turn up the sub bass!
By the way I just want to add that I don't know what the hell Maturana and those guy's are talking about. I like to try to decipher what you and Scott T. are talking about, but, no luck. I'm in the dark. I've been humbled. Is there any way to explain these things to someone of limited intelligence? I'm just curious?

Take it easy, x
PS. Feel free to e-mail me
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 21:06:52 (EST)
From: skeptic
Email: None
To: x
Subject: clear explanations
Message:
Is there any way to explain these things to someone of limited intelligence? I'm just curious?

Maturana's intelligence is also limited. Similar brain to yours and everybody's. If you don't understand him it is because he is so obviously trying his damnedest not to be understood by anyone except those who have learned the jargon. Or he just doesn't care whether people understand him or not. So why should you?

Ham's clarification made a lot more sense than the orginal quotation, which just makes you realise how unnecessarily obscure Maturana's language is. I'm not convinced he is actually saying anything that needs saying.

Try Dawkins or Gould. Complex ideas can be expressed in very simple language by accomplished writers who INVITE YOU IN rather than shut you out.

Maturana may know what he is talking about, but damned if I do.
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Date: Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 01:48:32 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: skeptic
Subject: clear explanations
Message:
'If you don't understand him it is because he is so obviously trying his damnedest not to be understood by anyone except those who have learned the jargon. Or he just doesn't carewhether people understand him or not. So why should you?.'

You might well be right, it's the idea of auto-pioesis that I find fascinating, not the person behind it.
I suspect he's just communicating to an academic audience and does not have good communication skills for the general public.
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 06:24:24 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: x
Subject: x-cell-ent
Message:
Phat indeed.
Big up to you matee, at long last someone here who understands how I feel about rock music! Stale says it all.
Re Photek, you ABSOLUTELY MUST hear it at full volume, with the bass cranked as high as it will go, the sound programming is TOTALLY set up for that, otherwise unless you're into the drum patterns it'll slip by. The bass/groin, the middle of the body/strings/melody, the head/ snares/high hats/cymbals. Each part of equal importance. No hierarchies. Even Photek is still dance music. Yeah it's supremely intelligent, but its intelligence starts around the groin/hips and reaches your brain through your internal organs as much as through the ears.
I'll definitely be e-mailing you, get some tapes sorted.
If Photek's too serious for ya, and it is for a lot of people, similar vein, Goldie-'Timeless' album, ANY version of 'Inner-city Life' (Goldie again). For a bit of a laugh and getting pissed to, try anything by Fatboy Slim, anything on the Skint label.

For the ladeez side of things (wind-up!), try Sasha (not Sash!) or John Digweed, both excellent dj's, much lighter, uplifting house as against dark & dangerous drum & bass and big-beat. For those who like it a bit less intense but still want some sub-bass, check out any speed garage compilation, speed garage,verrry sexy!

Re Maturana, I know it's fucking dense, but the concept behind it is ABSOLUTELY crucial, and I'm working on simplifying it for Jim if nobody else, since he won't read anything by Maturana/Varela himself. (Fritjof Capra, who has written a number of very popular books on different aspects of science, and is always easily readable, has written one called Web Of Life which is primarily based on Maturana and Varelas ideas.) Everybody I know who's finally got it, has a huge reality model shift. It is so transformational that you can literally feel disorientated physically for the first few days because it's not just about another variation on evolution. It's about our perception of reality as well.

Here goes an ultra ultra precis of m/v/auto-poiesis.

We think that we experience reality cleanly, what we experience is what is out there. It is VERY easy to show this is not true. Our experience of reality is a construction that we make ourselves. This does not mean that any belief system is ok. The value of science is that it is the ONLY system of explanation that can break down phenomena into cogently argued stages. There should be no need for beliefs within this explanatory system.

What are the conditions that enable us to say that something is a living being? Living beings share the characteristic of continual self-production. This requires an 'organization' (the map) that fills in the details with 'structure'. Eg, a chair is still a chair(organization) even when you change the legs from wood to metal, plastic etc (the structure). The 'organization' of any living system is closed. There is always a membrane that seperates a living system from anything else, and it has it's own internal dynamics. The relationship between the insides and skin/membrane of any living system is a continuos interaction. This is the absolute basic bottom line of an auto-poietic system.

' The most striking feature of an autopoietic system is that it pulls itself up by its own bootstraps and becomes distinct from its environment through its own dynamics, in such a way that both things are inseperable.'

The membrane and the internal dynamics are linked in a circular way. You need the internal dynamics to produce the membrane. Without the membrane you cannot have the internal dynamics. Neither side of this interaction comes before the other.

This definition implies that living beings are autonomous. They specify their own laws. No outside agency is involved.
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 11:38:52 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Not today, thanks
Message:
Our experience of reality is a construction that we make ourselves. This does not mean that any belief system is ok.

Go ahead, ham. Tell me how the above is NOT paradoxical.

What are the conditions that enable us to say that something is a living being? Living beings share the characteristic of continual self-production. This requires an 'organization' (the map) that fills in the details with 'structure'. Eg, a chair is still a chair(organization) even when you change the legs from wood to metal, plastic etc (the structure). The 'organization' of any living system is closed. There is always a membrane that seperates a living system from anything else, and it has it's own internal dynamics. The relationship between the insides and skin/membrane of any living system is a continuos interaction. This is the absolute basic bottom line of an auto-poietic system.

I still don't get it and I don't think I'll like it if and when I do. Could you give me some real world example of one of these 'continuous interaction' relationships between a skin/membrane and insides which is significant to this theory? I'm not getting past this crazy sense of platonic romance about 'essential form' or something. Mind you, I'm not so surprised, if you say Capra's a 'follower'. I never understood him to be saying much worth remembering either.

No, no, I'm not trying to be confrontational. I'm just telling you the impression I formed of Capra years ago, mainly from reading his first, famous book (The Tao of Physics? The Dancing Bear? I can't remember.) So now I'm all ready to revisit my opinion of him as well. Let me see if I can find something from his book around here......
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 12:39:46 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Not today, thanks
Message:
Our experience of reality is a construction that we make ourselves. This does not mean that any belief system is ok.

Go ahead, ham. Tell me how the above is NOT paradoxical.


To my pea brain, it means that although each individual perceives the external would differently, this does not mean that any hairbrained theory or explanation is acceptable.

I'll cede the remainder of my time to the esteemed gentleman from GB, Mr hamzen..
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 12:43:07 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Found it
Message:
Okay, I think I found the page we're all looking for. Here's Capra explaining systems theory in a nutshell to the readers of Spirit:

Bloobedydoobedy

For a general critique of the new-age, erronious trend Capra launched extrapolating mysticism from quantum physics, try here:

blibbedy blah blah

Ham, I continually return to my earlier defense mechanism. What do the guys I already accept as experts -- the plain old vanilla old-school evolution experts -- say about this stuff? Do you know? Is there any place anyone's seen any such commentary? You say Maturana's 'crucial'. Do you think Dawkins, for example, would agree? If so, why hasn't he said as much? If not, what gives? Are you saying that Dawkins is just not getting it either and is, in fact, ignorant of or somehow evading this important peice of the puzzle?
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 12:51:19 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: try again
Message:
For some reason, my link doesn't work right. But here's the address to Capra's explanation:

http://www.cerbernet.co.uk/spirit/THINK1.htm
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Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 09:34:36 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Fat Boy Slim
Message:
Ham,

I just thought I'd let you know I like this guy. I also like some of the cuts from the soundtrack of 'Lost In Space'. Maybe there's hope for this old rocker after all, eh.

Rock still rules.
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 02:06:17 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: El Nino
Subject: Sex for an attention getter.
Message:
Didn't you know? Belief is based upon hearsay, faith is based upon experience?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 14:37:09 (EST)
From: El Nino
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Holi
Message:
For Christmas, I purchased an album published by UNICEF explaining world traditions to young readers. On the page about India, they mentioned Holi, the paint-splashing festival widely practiced in India. I didn't know this wasn't only a sectarian pracice.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 22:57:39 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: El Nino
Subject: Holi
Message:
I watched a PBS thing on Mexico that mentioned they also have a Holi festival. I don't think they do the paint but they are really into it and I believe it's the same time of year. It all fits in with the pagan solstice and equinox festivals.
More dead brain cells are preventing me from remember when holi is. Isn't it in the spring?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 12:35:28 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Premies and Exs READ
Subject: British TV program
Message:
I have just spoken with Lucy Green, the person doing the TV program(UK) on religious/spiritual movements during this century up to the 70s.
She told me that she has been contacted by 3 people, all of whom are no longer followers of prempal. She also said that she received a letter from ‘the organisation’ (I suppose EV) which expressed some concern over what the program may say.(why didn’t EV send someone for her to interview?…)

Well, premies, here is your opportunity to sing your master's glory….otherwise the only information will be from ex-premies. You see premies, words CAN be very important.

Lucy’s phone number is 0117-9258589.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 22:59:19 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: British TV program
Message:
Please please keep us informed on this one Jethro.
:)
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 02:41:00 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: British TV program
Message:
Hello Selene

The actual program will be a three part series covering the development of these groups that came into existance between the 20s and the 70s.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:30:55 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Detente
Message:
Hi everyone,

Remember my 'last remaining premie friend' who sent me the GM video, and I posted that it was a dilemma for me and you all gave me advice about how to deal with it? Well, I wrote her a letter saying that I thought GM was a fraud, I told her about the website, but then I also said I didn't want this to come between us. I got a very classy letter back from her and we have both vowed not to let this come between us. I'm going to send the video back to her. We exchanegd all our news and photos about our kids, etc, and she sent a beautiful xmas gift to my daughter.

Now I tell you, isn't that classy? She is one high-class woman.

Helen
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:39:57 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Detente
Message:
You bet your ass she is! I have yet to meet anyone with that kind of class. And I hope , truly, that she is sincere. I am sure she values your friendship. Amazing in and of itself that. Considering how 'he' de-values those human relationships.
Just take care of yourself Helen. I don't mean to be cynical but.. well I would hate for you to be disappointed. I have been SO hurt in this area.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:52:30 (EST)
From: peter
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: better than Henry
Message:
I love it when someone takes the bull by the horns and does what has to be done and it works out RIGHT. Congratulations.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 06:28:29 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Detente
Message:
Really pleased for you Helen. I too have only one true premie friend, my ex, but it has taken us nearly ten years to work out a lot of communication difficulties re big boy, but recently we seem to be mending our communication. She even sends me articles on neuro-science and is interested on any info I find about biology and explanations for transcendent experiences from a biological angle!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 07:49:12 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: ham,selene, peter
Subject: All my ex-es live in Texas
Message:
Thanks guys! Beleive me, Selene, this friend and I have fought about GM before and I'm sure we will again--it's too central to a premie's being, that immersion in Maharaji--but my friend and I would have A LOT to lose to ruin our friendship over this. SHe was an 'unwed mother' and raised a beautiful kid by herself, and I was a broke, spaced out drifter (both back in our 20's) and we both helped each other along the way. I notice that she pretty much stays away from other premies and is not in it for the social life. She doesn't gush on about GM--she says she trusts him and respects him. In a way, I think she has more realistic expectations from the path--I wish I could post her letter here on the forum (but of course I wouldn't without her permission). SHe went into a lot of detail about why GM has changed fm being the LOTU to a teacher --she says that it is because he is defining himself now, not being defined by his culture/family's expecations of him. I have the feeling that she is a natural atheist/agnostic who has found something in Maharaji to enhance her life.
My expectations of GM were so much more out of bounds (God-realization, etc) ...

I really resent the 'big boy' coming between people, don't you guys? Hammie, I'm glad you and your ex have hammered things out over the years, and that she is trying to learn about science and reach out to you through your interests. I'm always so encouraged when ex-spouses can be friends!! (I know it wasn't easy getting there!!)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 10:15:58 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: just two points. Helen.
Message:
My expectations of GM were so much more out of bounds (God-realization, etc) ...

They really weren't out of bounds at all. This is what was being promoted at the time (god-realization.) How many times did he say he was greater than god, could show you god and was god-incarnate himself? Let's be real clear about this and not forget.

SHe went into a lot of detail about why GM has changed fm being the LOTU to a teacher --she says that it is because he is defining himself now, not being defined by his culture/family's expecations of him.

How does she know this? It seems much more likely, imo, that BM saw the dwindling of his empire and decided a complete pr make-over was in order. He could afford the best consultants on the planet, having fleeced his followers for millions over the years, and it is highly probable that THEY came up with his new image. New image-same old game. Nothing has really changed but the wrapping.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 15:39:39 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: just two points. Helen.
Message:
hey Gerry,
Good points, ger, you know I agree with you.
I haven't changed my position GM but it was interesting to read my friend's perspective. It wasn't until this web site that I was able to put 2 and 2 together about GM's wealth and his rationale about things being wealth-driven.

My friend trusts him, period, and doesn't question these things the way I did. SHe didn't have that heavy aspirant time that I had. She has managed to have a happy life and to be a well balanced person with GM. I couldn't do that. I hated that whole 'don't think' mentality, but she never took that in the same way I did. Go figure.

There is so much there in our friendship that we talk about, GM is just a mild interference (IMO), like an annoying mosquito that disrupts a fun picnic, only to be swatted away. I know that thre will come those tense moments when I'll have to open up my big mouth and we'll tangle over this again, but 'I'll cross that bridge when I come to it' ....I'm gonna sneak outa the office early before the big rush hour madness starts. Catch you later
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 13:26:39 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Detente
Message:
sounds normal to me.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 15:44:34 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Detente
Message:
Normal to you because you don't dump your friends just because they stop following big boy. A lot of folks on the forum have been dumped by friends because they just can't be bothered trying to understand thier friend's ex-premie views or new philosophy/outlook. This is because (IMO) PEOPLE do not come before Maharaji in Maharaji's world, Maharaji comes before PEOPLE.
How ya been, shp?? You feelin' better? Gotta run,

Helen
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 23:08:20 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Detente
Message:
This is because (IMO) PEOPLE do
not come before Maharaji in Maharaji's world, Maharaji comes
before PEOPLE.

So well said Helen.
yup, that's what happened to me. More than once. I am happy for you and you know what, I am happy for me too! I am well rid of those 'N' word relationships and have found people 'in the world' to be much kinder.
I feel as though I am shedding years of old icky skin or something.
Your friend is unique. You are lucky for that. I had the same type of 25 year history with the premie friend that trashed me. She has her issues. I'ts not all M but M has caused her to avoid working on herself. She feels morally and spiritually superior. It
is obvious in what she has said and done to me and others.
Well good for her. That a a quarter won't even BUY her a clue.
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 01:06:44 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Detente
Message:
I think you've hit the nail on the head when you say premies feel morally and spiritually superior and avoid any work on themselves.I did this for years--basically there was no growth for me while I was with M.How could there be ---the solution to everything was satsang ,service and meditation and him.Itwas a good recipe for stagnation.
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 07:31:21 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Detente
Message:
WHen people stop working on themselves, it's all over baby. SO easy to 'retire' behind some trip, ain't it? I'm sorry you lost friends but like you said were they real friends anyway? Happy smiley face people who never acknowledge negativity or conflict, who needs 'em? What kindof relationship can you have with 'em? When the going gets tough they drop outa sight.
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 09:12:52 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Detente
Message:
hey 'cavorts with canines'!

merry christmas! happy hannukah! happy kwansaa! party on!

i gotta give credit where it's due, and i know maharaji advised premies many years ago to invite people to hear about him; if they did not want to come because they were happy already, maharaji said to congratulate them and leave them alone about it. i presume that applies to folks who are no longer interested.

besides that, my parents, god bless 'em taught me since i was a kid to respect other people and their right to their beliefs and experiences, and not let that get in the way of friendships and relationships.

guess i was lucky/blessed.

see ya,

satsangs-with -soil
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 10:03:29 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Philosophies and junk
Message:
My dear shp, (gets down with the dirt),

It seems to me that you have walked the spiritual path keeping your focus on something bigger than Maharaji while following Maharaji. Believe me, there is a big difference between your attititude (which can entertain some healthy skeptism, reality checks, etc) and the attitude that 'the buck stops here with Maharaji'. I also always tried to remember that God was greater than Maharaji and that he, as a guru, was supposed to be helping us realize God. I knew that meant that someday I might move on from him, in my quest for God-realization, but that was OK.
Now here I am moving toward more of an agnostic stance these days (thanks a lot, Jim) due to this forum. All this spiritual stuff and God-realization stuff is givink me a headache!! Oy! Maybe I'll just be a fence sitter the rest of my life, flip-flopping back & forth.

I used to have a philosophy professor who called fence-sitters 'mug-wumps'. He maintained that each person should be able to choose from one of these four philosophies: Idealism, pragmatism, realism, and existentialism. Never mind that there was an Asian woman in the class who couldn't relate to any of the 'sacrosanct 4 Western choices'. During the entire semester you had to argue your point of view from one of those 4 philosophies. If you talked about how you 'felt' or offered up an opinion, he said 'This is not Joe's Bar'. He wanted us to use the Socratic method at all times. He called me 'that little Unitarian gal' and even slapped me on the butt one time!! He is a lawyer and a priest. A lot of my fellow grad students dropped out of his classes because he was such a pit bull, or they had nervous breakdowns over him. I argued the idealist point of view during his class but it seems too abstract and metaphysical to me now. Well I guess we all gots to change and grow (life will do that to ya).

I think your attitude is a lot more healthy than the 'Maharaji is it/no questions asked' mentality and you will have a more fulfilling life (because you can take perspectives, see different points of view, etc). 'You will have a more fulfilling life'--sheesh, sounds like a have a frigging crystal ball, but you know what I mean. I know your life hasn't been easy, but I applaud you for keeping your heart open and not being bitter. I think bitterness is the killer of life (I have to work on that in myself, especially w/ arthritis). I pray I don't become a bitter old crippled woman at age 41!!

Hope you are feeling better.

Love,
Helen (kisses dogs on the lips)
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 10:22:54 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Hey shp
Message:
shp: I wanted to answer your post below, but it archived while I was actually writing the response.... NO KIDDING! So, since I found you here, I thought that I'd like to post it for you. This is in reference to our Ram Das thread. Here 'tis:

shp: Based upon the 'programming' argument, my next question would be: Who 'programmed' us? Were we programmed by people who really don't 'know' anything (my assertion) or did 'god' program us. When I was a very young child, I didn't even have an inkling that there was a 'god,' until my parents told me (external programming), therefore I MUST assume that god didn't do it. Are my parents self-realized/god-realized? NO, nor is anyone else that I've ever met. So do they really 'know' ANYTHING about what they are talking about? I assert, NO, again!

We make MANY ASSUMPTIONS based upon what other people tell us (external programming). A doctor knows alot about how a human body works from reading texts and from EXPERIENCE dealing with the human body (surgeons, in particular). I assume that they can take care of me when I'm sick, due to this fact. Unfortunately, alot of folks without the same EXPERIENTIAL and theoretical knowledge levels are advising (programming) us with regard to 'god.' Does god actually exist, at all? Who is actually 'qualified' to say 'yes,' Ram Das? I don't think so. This is MY personal quandry.
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 21:43:10 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Hey mike
Message:
hey mike,

I find it harder to accept that there is not a God than to accept that there is a God. Just look at your hand and wiggle your fingers and think about all the processes that had to take place for that to happen and then tell me that there isn't a Creator.

Or don't....it's your movie out of your eyes and my movie out of mine. I'll tell you about my movie, but I won't try to make you watch it. I see the inevitability of a God in my movie, and to try to share all the nanoseconds and other moments in my life that contributed to this viewpoint would take alot.

Quandries cannot exist where there is clarity. No matter how much we have bcome attached to our quandries, we have to let go of them to go on. That's tough because we have to bid a fond farewell to the eternal all-nighters and the smokey, drinky avant-garde seeker thingy. I digress. Gotta go. Peace. It's always a pleasure to hear from ya, mike. hope you're having a cool holiday season.
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 21:53:35 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: shp, why can't you hear me?
Message:
I find it harder to accept that there is not a God than to accept that there is a God. Just look at your hand and wiggle your fingers and think about all the processes that had to take place for that to happen and then tell me that there isn't a Creator.

shp,

Seems you and I talked about this once, twice maybe three times. Listen, man, you absolutely need to learn about natural selection in order to understand evolutionary theory's reply to this 'illusion of design'. Now you say you don't want to be told what to read and all that. Fine. Fair enough. But don't think you get the same credit as an open-minded 'seeker of truth' when you keep running the same questions again and again. The fact is, evolutionary theory offers a very compelling explanation for your fingers and your toes. Why do you ignore its challenge?

And don't go telling me you can pretty well guess what science says on the subject but you're still not satisfied. It's abundantly clear that you DON'T understand the basic idea (which is as simple and elegant as it is profound). You need to READ, you know? Here' I'll tell you waht I'll do. I'll try to find you a nice, simple net-based thumbnail summary of natural selection. That might help.

(Excuse me for a few moments)
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 22:02:22 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: i hear you loud and clear
Message:
hi jim,

i hear you loud and clear.

what i hear is that you haven't taken the leap of faith yet and gone beyond your intellect (maharaji notwithstanding..even if we never heard of him). you are still trying to put the ocean in a dixie cup, far as i'm concerned. but that doens't mean i wouldn't enjoy a guiness with ya and listen to gravel do its thing someday if i ever get out that way or if your band tours.

there's a difference between shallow and simple.
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 22:26:42 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: No, you don't mean that
Message:
what i hear is that you haven't taken the leap of faith yet and gone beyond your intellect (maharaji notwithstanding..even if we never heard of him). you are still trying to put the ocean in a dixie cup, far as i'm concerned.

shp,

The band's the X-Flies now and sure, you're more than welcome. But where were we? Let's look closey at what you're saying. There? Finished? So am I. Now, let's both forget everything you've just said. Okay? We'll have no more talk about blind faith here, okay? Good. So long as we understand each other.

shp, my dear friend, here are a couple of real-live links I've made just for you. Settle down and READ a bit, will ya? It's not tricky stuff, just incredibly important if you're interested in knowing who we are and how we got here:

come on, shp, read me

read me, too, shp
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 22:53:40 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: i made bookmarks
Message:
jim,

i bookmarked the two sites you so kindly set up for me and will read them at a more fortuitous time. thank you.

may i recommend keywording in the name 'gordon michael scallion' and check him and his earthchanges foundation out. you may enjoy it. this regular guy gets sick, right? and he ends up in a hospital real sick and going through alot and then having nostradamus-like visions to the point where he's really committed to the whole trip that's being revealed to him during this time and he relocates from california to new hampshire, etc.

here is a little something for the lawyer in you to celebrate the christmas season...maybe the folks around the office will get a chuckle....

~~~TWELVE DAYS OF CHRISTMAS~~~

December 14, 1972
My dearest darling John: Who ever in the whole world would dream of getting a real partridge in a pear tree? How can I ever express my pleasure. Thank you a hundred times for thinking of me this way. My love always, Agnes

=================================================================

December 15, 1972
Dearest John: Today the postman brought your very sweet gift. Just imagine two turtle doves. I'm just delighted at your very thoughtful gift. They are just adorable. All my love, Agnes

=================================================================

December 16, 1972
Dear John: Oh! Aren't you the extravagant one. Now I must protest. I don't deserve such generosity, three French hens. They are just darling but I must insist, you've been too kind. All my love, Agnes

=================================================================

December 17, 1972
Dear John: Today the postman delivered four calling birds. Now really, they are beautiful, but don't you think enough is enough. You are being too romantic. Affectionately, Agnes

=================================================================

December 18, 1972
Dearest John: What a surprise. Today the postman delivered five golden rings, one for every finger. You're just impossible, but I love it. Frankly, all those birds squawking were beginning to get on my nerves. All my love, Agnes

=================================================================

December 19, 1972
Dear John: When I opened the door today there were actually six geese a-laying on my front steps. So you're back to the birds again huh? These geese are huge. Where will I ever keep them? The neighbors are complaining and I can't sleep through the racket. Please stop. Agnes

=================================================================

December 20, 1972
John: What's with you and those freaking birds?? Seven swans a swimming. What kind of damn joke is this? There's bird poop all over the house and they never stop the racket. I can't sleep at night and I'm a nervous wreck. It's not funny. So stop those freaking birds. Sincerely, Agnes

=================================================================

December 21, 1972
O.K. Buster: I think I prefer the birds. What the hell am I going to do with 8 maids a milking? It's not enough with all those birds and 8 maids a milking, but they had to bring their damn cows. There is manure all over the lawn and I can't move in my own house. Just lay off me, smartass. Agnes

=================================================================

December 22, 1972
Hey Dumbo: What are you? Some kind of sadist? Now there's nine
pipers playing. And Christ, do they play. They've never stopped chasing those maids since they got here yesterday morning. The cows are getting upset and they're stepping all over those screeching birds. What am I going to do? The neighbors have started a petition to evict me. You'll get yours ! Agnes

=================================================================

December 23, 1972
You rotten jerk: Now there's ten ladies dancing. I don't know why I call those sluts ladies. They've been balling those pipers all night long. Now the cows can't sleep and they've got diarrhea. My living room is a river of shit. The Commissioner of Buildings has subpoenaed me to give cause why the building shouldn't be condemned. I'm calling the police on you ! Agnes

=================================================================

December 24, 1972
Listen Dickhead: What's with those eleven lords a leaping on those maids and ladies? Some of those broads will never walk again. Those pipers ran through the maids and have been committing sodomy with the cows. All twenty-three of the birds are dead. They've been trampled to death in the orgy. I hope you're satisfied, you rotten vicious swine. Your sworn enemy, Agnes

=================================================================

December 25, 1972
Dear Sir: This is to acknowledge your latest gift of twelve fiddlers fiddling which you have seen fit to inflict on our client, Miss Agnes McHolstein. The destruction, of course, was total. All correspondence should come to our attention. If you should attempt to reach Miss McHolstein at Happy Dale Sanitarium, the attendants have been instructed to shoot you on sight. With this letter please find attached a warrant for your arrest.

Cordially, Law Offices of Badger, Bender and Chole
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 22:56:21 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: HA! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 22:54:11 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: SHEESH
Message:
There you go with that Sam I Am thing again Jim. Man, you are so pushy. You're scaring me, man! Why is it so bloody important to you that everyone get on the same page as you?
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 22:58:47 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: SHEESH
Message:
now now helen be nice
jim is trying to give love
in his own way
some people
say it with flowers
others make music
jim gives reading
recommendations...
can't you feel it?
really
no shit
sounds funny
but i mean it
jim's love is like
a very dry
martini
with a bookmark
soaking in it!
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 23:06:12 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: shp/Jim
Subject: Don't know about
Message:
that, but I guess you're right. Sorry Jim. I'm a little tense tonight, must be 'that time of the month' Sorry

But...Jim, some people are just going to have faith. WHy does that bother you so much? I agree, we should read. We should bloody read until our brains are ready to explode from all the information. But science may not answer all our concerns and questions and that's where faith comes in. Is it verifiable? No. You either have it or you don't (faith that is).

You seem to be made in such a way (you said this yourself) that you can still have all the warm and fuzzies without God. That's great, really. But not all of us are made like you.

I wish that you would give the same regard for people's beliefs as you expect them to give to your evolutionary science books/articles. There, I've said it.
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 23:20:46 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Smiley-face death mask
Message:
Helen,

I'm sorry. If I could take it all back I would. Please, do me a favour, and DON'T read anymore about natural selection for now. Too little daylight this time of year.

My zealotry, by the way, is just a lazy cover for something or other. I haven't figured out what yet but that's all part of it.

:)
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 23:28:20 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Smiley-face death mask
Message:
Er..okay. Vat the hell are you talkink about? I think I'll just let Little Yiddish Grandma completely take over my personality. How easy it would be to just surrender and let her take over...not have to think anymore...not have to struggle anymore.....sleep...sleep...sleep...the poppies.

Seriously Jim, you do come on a little strong. It's like going out on a date and the guy wants to get RIGHT TO IT! No conversation, no foreplay, no nothing.

Bad analogy since I've been a married woman more than 14 years now, but hey it still happens with married couples too: 'SLow down honey, and let me catch up to you.'

Us folks who believe in God are not going to jump so quickly on your bandwagon. You gotta be more subtle in your delivery. Just a suggestion. Now I think I'll stuff my face with some Christmascookies (I got PMS bad, man)
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 07:54:58 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Darwin is god!
Message:
Helen, shp made a comment about hands and the wonder of them, and how only god could have produced them. This is not the only possible explanation, and when you have a simple explanation that can be explained...blah, blah. There are people here who have read evolutionary theory & still believe in god, I don't know how they do it but...One thing having a belief in god, something else saying only god could have produced those little digits.

Jim might be pushy, but that doesn't invalidate his response to shp.
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 09:30:25 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: freedom of expression
Message:
hi ham,

you said: Jim might be pushy, but that doesn't invalidate his response to shp.

i say: i'll drink to that...a little later on though, it's kinda early where i am.
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 08:05:12 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: i hear you loud and clear
Message:
Simple=uninformed.

Simple is fine for being in the moment, experiencing the here & now I would say is pretty crucial on a regular basis, but explanations for those experiences are of a different order.

No hassle, but is it possible that the thought of imagining a life without god is just too desolate, that this might be at least a part of your and other peoples faith?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 09:39:35 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: i hear you loud and clear
Message:
ham,

you are goin' too deep pal...that's just me shootin the shit about how i felt when i wrote that post, ya know?

there seems to be too much attention being paid to nits in the Conversation rather than the Conversation itself.

i can't see gravity, but i feel its results.
i can't see air (most of the time), but i feel its results.
i can't see time, but i feel its results.
i can't see vibration, but i feel its results.

it is these observations and others like them that suggest to me strongly the existence of an invisible creator. the most basic forces that are keeping us alive and on earth are invisible, so for me it is not a big stretch to go rest of the way.
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Date: Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 09:48:25 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: You CAN see vibration...
Message:
Awwww shp: Now you gone and done it! he he he. You 'see' vibrations all the time. Light, as such, is within the electromagnetic spectrum.... It IS a vibration (among other things).
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:13:30 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: a review ... LOTU
Message:
First, if anyone addressed me in forum and I didn't answer it's because this place has gotten SO busy I can't keep up! So my apologies if I inadvertantly igonored anyone.
On to the good (?) stuff:
Watched the LOTU video with my husband a few nights ago. I wanted to wait to post this til I got to watch it again, alone. But I couldn't.
He isn't a premie. But I had the embarrassing bad judgement to bring him to see the gooroo in Phoenix in - what was it? - 96? Mike?
Anyway. What first hit me was, I was still attracted on some level. He is sort of cute in a want to pike his pillsbury dough boy tummy cute.
And I miss the idealism. The belief that we were riding a wave .. uh I lapse Hunter here. OK. But the old feelings came back. It was sad and yet I felt some thanks also, for the good times, such as they were. I suppose youth is like that no matter what, when one is looking back at it from the 40 somethings.
The 'Holy Family' was as creepy as ever. I never did like them. And who the hell picked out Mata and Bal's glasses? Geez they make us computer geeks look like fashion models.
Of course I also felt anger. But then you are all so familiar with my anger I'll let that one go. I do wish the pie thrower 4 inch plate in the head guy would have let his guard down a little more and expressed HIS anger at almost being murdered by god's minion.
The very best line in the video goes to Abby Hoffman
'If he IS God than he is the God America deserves'
We laughed out loud at that one.
Very disturbing video for one who has been there. And my husband found it unsettling as well, seeing how REAL it was, the hook I mean, not the gooroo.
It was so amatueurish by today's standards. Yet for me that added to effectiveness. I kept thinking of the movie 'Slacker'. No wonder we have that movie! Look what we passed on to that generation! ugh!
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:17:43 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: ps - piking tummies
Message:
Selene in 1999 you must fix the typo thingy.
I meant poke his tummy. Cross cultural as this forum is I hate to think what piking a tummy means! : )
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:25:35 (EST)
From: Video from the archives.
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Want to sees this one?
Message:
Who should I send the video

WHO IS GURU MAHARAJ JI too?

Seems like you all have seen the one done by the pbs folks.
The video needs someone to splice the one broken spot
together.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:33:55 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Video from the archives.
Subject: Want to sees this one?
Message:
Hi vfta
I don't have the access to the equipment to splice the video. too bad. It sounds interesting. I vaguely remember that one. I think it was the one where he was in his greasy hair phase and I kept getting distracted by that and wanting to push back that one lock of grease that kept falling on his forehead. Oh well, who am I to talk? I didn't wear a bra for God's sake and uh, well, let's just say I needed one.
hey get back on track here! What about the LOTU review??
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 11:10:17 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Video from the archives.
Subject: Thanks, I'd love to see it
Message:
Hay vid,

I'd be more than happy to take WIGMJ? if you wanted to send it to me:

Jim Heller
7 - 547 Herald St
Victoria, B.C.
Canada V8W 1S5

I've even got a video friend who can fix it I'd imagine. Thanks.

Jim
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 11:50:04 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks, I'd love to see it
Message:
Yo, Jimmy, if you get it fixed, I'd love to see WIGMJ when you are finished with it!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 12:01:32 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks, I'd love to see it
Message:
Hey Jim,

Are you sure you aren't a NLP master practioner? For example, the title of your post, by saying ''Thanks'' you are embedding through presupposition, that you ARE receiving the tape. Also, the very fact of thanking Vid, you make him (excuse me--him/her) indebted (through reciprocity) to actually send you the tape. Well done.

I wanted it, too.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 13:22:26 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: vfta
Subject: Thanks, I'd love to see it
Message:
me too. me too!!!!!!!!!
eb
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 23:16:26 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: it's yours.(nt)
Message:
;lskjfdajfowivk
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Date: Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 00:07:54 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Thanks, I'd love to see it
Message:
Hey, eb, if you get ahold of WIGMJ, send it on to me.

Selene,
Abby Hoffman did get a good line off, didn't he?
What did your husband think about the whole thing?
Everyone I have shown it to thinks the trip was the strangest thing ever. They couldn't believe it was real.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 23:36:05 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Katie------
Message:
Would you remove this post of Jims before it goes into the
archives?
No need for his address to sit there.
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 10:24:11 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Bill....
Message:
It's up to Jim, really. He's posted his address on here several other times. Jim, let me know.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 23:37:58 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: ps - piking tummies
Message:
HA! ..in my country 'piking tummies' is an invitation to dance the shimmy jimmy dance.

Seriously, Loved your review, so honest. That Abby Hoffman quote is perfection itself.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 13:26:24 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: ps - piking tummies LOL! NT
Message:
Hehehehehhahahahhahahahhohohohoohohahahahah
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 00:07:30 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: a review ... LOTU
Message:
Commenting on myself as usual. Ego - of all things!
Just saw the news. I worked a 12 hour day, didn't know we just bombed Iraq. the lord of the universe, and any accompanying videos seem so irrelevant now. Except for one thing.

'I declare I will bring peace to this earth in this lifetime'

Screw you M, I'm goin home.

feeling so sad. I hope no civilians were hurt, but I know better.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 00:09:49 (EST)
From: srb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: the holy family
Message:
Your right Selene.
Those glasses were funny we should have a picture of the
whole holy family on the site.
I have a good candidate.
They are all standing in a backyard-in england probably.
They are all looking in different directions.

They lookl like walrusses. Is walrus like sheep?
One sheep 60 sheep
5 walrus in a row,
all that divine power
agya rareing to go.
I'm in charge!
No ME!
But I'm the eldest!
I'm the Mata and you aren't behaving!
prem rawat told the story in the late nineties about how
raja and bhole used to have fights about different
subjects. He said that one time they were fighting about
some musician from the past and they started to fight and
one chased the other with a brick! Threw it too!

I think Bhole was doing the chaseing.
He was insane of course but he was spirited and a do-er
prem rawat really ruined Bhole's music career in
the west. But in his defense, the holy family was
living expensively in malibu with the huge band and
they were too expensive to share with.

Mata ji said 'this time the lord has come with ten hands
to take in the whole world.'

They were so strongly pushing thier divinity.
We were just too innocent to think this much deciet was
possible.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 00:36:15 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: srb
Subject: the glasses
Message:
Thanks for the laugh. I am as I said upset about us bombing another country yet again.
You know what? Elvis Costello sort of had the same glasses didn't he? but they were so much classier on him.
Which just goes to show you, it's what is coming from inside that show outside. And those holy family dudes didn't have it. Sorry, guys you just weren't big enuf you holy family you.

and anyway Elvis's glasses were more like buddy holly glasses.
the H F glasses reminded me of some sex pervert .. uh this isn't that kind of support forum so I'll stop now. Geez it's late everywhere but here!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 23:22:11 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: the glasses
Message:
We will allow a thread on that perhaps!

My guess is that clinton and the defense department is
glad for the opportunity to bomb Iraq now because
in the year 2000, we will no onger be able to stop him.
The command and control centers aren't y2k compliant!

I am SURE that is the real reason they set it up.
Clinton is taking the hit on this the wrong way.
He is not what some suppose.
But still, he has to go.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 23:56:17 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: the other bill
Message:
So he is a sort of high tech fall guy? Makes sense if the bug is
indeed in some chips as well as software. Like the read only memory things? ROM?
That is scary. But, the logic breaks down. I mean, if we blow off all our steam, all SH has to do is wait a year and send some germ buggies or something our way.
I am so confused about this y2k shit. It is the biggest joke that for once in my life i am in a position to be moderately financially comfy, and it all looms dark and gloomy ahead.
I have decided to
empty out the storage shed, sell all that antique crap that needs refinishing and jus tgive it up.
Fill the shed with water and canned foods.
Buy a generator. But that's about it. Can't figure out what to do with the 'electronic' investments, etc.. what? Hide them under the mattress? As what? cash? gold? and, if everyone does that don't we guarantee another depression level event? sigh.....
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 00:45:14 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: the other one
Message:
Keep your stocks Selene.
ATT and Lucient Technologies are a safe bet.
The stock market WILL go up again after a bit of a downturn.

prices will go up because the refineries will be at 30%.
Shipping will take a vacation for a while.
Raising prices.
I called the local Hartford usa water company and said
'Hello this is bill burke from the American Water Works
Association, have you had time to fill out our questionaire?
They put me through to the top y2k guy and he said'It
didn't make it to my desk.' He agreed to answer a few
phone questions for the AWWA. His answers:

They began working on it in 98
They are not through assesing thier situation.
They have completed nothing.
They will be done by 2000.

not very encouraging.

Hartford is in the richest state in the union, the senator is
DODD and he is co-chairman of the senate y2k
comittee, It is the insurance capital of the world and
insurance started working on y2k first.
Guess they forgot to notify thier utilities.
My point would be, why would any other state be ahead
of this one?

So, as they say in the Senate-----prepare for the worst and
hope for the best.

Save your milk jugs for water.
It all wont last forever, but no need to walk into this blind.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 06:18:12 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: a review ... LOTU
Message:
Selene, how did you deal with the difficulties of being in a relationship with someone who wasn't a premie when you were still following, I would have thought that would be incredibly challenging?

Re the idealism, I don't think you have to give up idealism, although dealing with the loss of hope I did find very difficult.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 12:03:12 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: loss of hope
Message:
Yes, it's been a hard year. I am finding my hope and belief in life again. It took some time though. I think i made a fairly quick recovery, exit, whatever. This being due to the fact that for the last 6 years or so I had been getting more and more disenchanted and bored with the whole circus. Attending videos was awful, especially here since I knew half the premies hated each other. And events were really getting to me toward the end. Especially the music and videos. Soemone here called it elevator music and that about sums it up. And the premies! sheesh I could go on for 7 screens about what I think of some of them.
As for my current husband - he really didn't have to put up with much involvement with M on my part. Just my flying off 2 or 3 times a year when we really didn't have the money, but he is really easy going. He did say he was relieved when I finally had had it - and he enjoys reading this site. He loved 'The Kid' : )
This site helped me more than I can say. It's almost a year now. How abut that veep? we have an aniversary coming up. I say we declare it to be New Years day. Seems appropriate.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 20:30:30 (EST)
From: Dan Meyer
Email: dmeyer@cyberd.net
To: Everyone
Subject: What happened to GMJ Q&As?
Message:
The last question and answer program that I remember in the US was in Snowmass, CO. Was that way back in '87, or when?

I asked Maharaji then the only question I ever got a chance to ask, and he wouldn't answer it! The question (the best I can recall) was: 'Is there a community aspect to Knowledge or is it something you just do by yourself? Why don't we have Satsang and premie communities anymore?'

I don't remember that he said anything more than: 'It's just the way I want it, I don't want to argue about it!' and that was the end of it.

I've always wondered if my question was the reason he shut down Q&A? Does anyone know of a recording of that program?

I was really devastated at the time, because it seemed like a complete put-down of me and what seemed to me to be a fair question and relevant for all Premies who have seen the changes which have certainly affected our lives since the days of Satsang and community service.

Why should there be any question related to Knowledge that Maharaji wouldn't address? Why did this question receive such a complete rejection? Does anyone who was there remember this?
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 21:11:44 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Dan Meyer
Subject: What happened to GMJ Q&As?
Message:
Dan,

I don't remember your particular question, but I do remember being particularly troubled by M's Q & A sessions. Talk about going off on a tangent. M would start to address an individual's question and 15 minutes later he'd be so far off topic, I'd wonder if he even remembered what the question was. And he could go on forever just saying whatever popped into his head, seeming not ot care at all if he was addressing the question. After he was done, anywhere from 10 to 20 minutes later, I'd feel like he didn't answer the question at all.

The Q & A sessions were among the most disturbing aspects of the trip. They were the only time I was able to see M interact with people and I was gravely disappointed. He never clarified anything, although that's what he contended a master was necessary for, his clarity.

I'm sorry you feel he gave you the brushoff. He probably did you a favor. Think about all those poor souls he bombarded endlessly, probably only confusing them further after he was done.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 22:22:08 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: What happened to GMJ Q&As?
Message:
I was still around in a quasi sort of way in1987, but I was on the way out.I do remember some awkward questions being asked, especially by some ex ashram premies. I know at one stage M asked that all questions be submitted for approval before the program. Even when he could handpick the questions and prepare the answers,he still did a lousy job. Soon after, he stopped the Q&A sessions altogether.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 13:00:42 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: What happened to GMJ Q&As?
Message:
I guess I missed the Q&A period. Maharaji never allowed questions while I was a premie, that I recall. So, what were some of the awkward questions he was asked? Did he ever explain, for example, why he did such a flip flop on the ashrams? Do you recall anyone telling him his answers were inadequate?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 17:50:59 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: What happened to GMJ Q&As?
Message:
Dear JW,
A premie who I had shared an ashram with at some point asked M about the ashram closure.He had moved in at 18 and moved out when the ashrams closed at 28. He told M that he didnt know how to relate to people now, he had been left with no social or career skillsand then he asked him if he really was the lord. It took a lot of courage to address these issues with M in front of an audience of several thousand. M avoided the questions and said that all that mattered was the love. I was still being called on to do security backstage every now and then and there were certain people that we were to keep an eye on. We normally just sat a security person next to them so that they would not be given a mic to ask M a question. There had always been premies regarded as security risks for many and varied reasons,and security people were always seated next to them .The difference now was that some of these premies were ex ashram premies or ex admin people who simply wanted to ask about things they were having great difficulty with.Soon after,questions had to be submitted before the program .
They were screened and then passed onto M if they were deemed suitable.The chosen few were then told that they could ask their question.
chr
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 22:14:42 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: What happened to GMJ Q&As?
Message:
Thanks, chr, what you are saying is even worse than I thought. So, he never really DID address the ashram issue, right? Did he ever answer the question about whether he was the lord? God, he is SUCH a slimeball!

I left in 1983, from the ashram and the cult. I kept some distant involvement for a couple of months after I moved out, but I was pretty vocal about my opinions, which alienated all but a few of the premies, who acted like they were afraid of me.

I recall when the ashrams closed, which was a few months after I left. A friend of mine from Boston attended a Q&A with Maharaji there a couple of years later, and was so disgusted at what a deceptive turd he was that she left for good. It was the final straw. She had also been a long-term ashram premie and was infuriated at his answers to the questions some of the ex-ashramers raised.

I guess it was a good thing I didn't know about those sessions. I'm sure security would be sitting next to me.

I think I mentioned this before, but at a few programs I had the 'service' of wearing a green flower and getting in the darshan line in front of premies considered risks so that security around M would know. One program I went through darshan 7 times. Each time was equally uneventful.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 00:53:25 (EST)
From: Selens
Email: None
To: Dan Meyer
Subject: What happened to GMJ Q&As?
Message:
Hi Dan
What struck me first about your post was the courage it took to even addrss a question to M in front of a crowd of true believers.
It doesn't surprise me a bit you didn't get an answer that was relevant. ( just watched the Lord of the Universe video)
I'm sorry that happened to you but as Jerry said, it's for the best! What if you HAD gotten a satisfactory answer? Then what? Stick around til 97 like me the idiot i was?

selene.... sleepless in southwest
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 13:02:44 (EST)
From: cyberD
Email: cyberdsgn@usa.net
To: Selens
Subject: What happened to GMJ Q&As?
Message:
Well now that I've read in this Forum that some have been kept out of programs because of their expressions here, I'll use another name, hope it's not too late!

Actually I've stuck around even after that disillusionment. Was angry at first, but have always liked meditation, so I just kept up with that and found that it wasn't any fun to be angry at Maharaji. There really is love in meditation, and while this meditation is available elsewhere, it was still GM who showed it to me, so in honesty I am grateful for that.

What is fortunate about the Q&A event is that I just no longer look to GM to do more than introduce me to K, which he's done and seems to limit himself to in every program, often very poetically, if sometimes a bit simplistically for my inquiring mind. I attended the satellite program recently and thought he said that now that he's brought K to the whole world (phase 1), that now begins phase 2, but he didn't elaborate on that. Dare I hope that K will ever evolve beyond the individual introductory phase to include a community and social value?

I've done service at festivals and seen how powerful the experience of K can be in bringing cooperation and joy to group activities that otherwise are considered 'work'. In the past I heard satsang from everyday folks that was inspiring and allowed me to know and appreciate them in a way that other kinds of communication has not.

Is it just the un-spiritual expectations of 'mind' to look for fruits of this practice in a world society that continues to rush toward self-destruction? I find it difficult to see this as perfection.

Then again, many in this Forum express that 'service' took advantage of them. What I witnessed just before GM shut down satsang and then the ashrams was that premies used those situations to garner personal power and seek social kudos. I was glad GM pulled the plug, but disappointed that no reforms were made, the reasons were not addressed so we could learn and move forward, and now that we may be 'ex-communicated' if we violate a taboo against ever expressing anything but bliss about K and GM.

Oh well, I guess I'll just have to meditate through Armageddon! It may be a bit more difficult for my son, though, whom I had hoped might find a world made better by Knowledge, whose potential is still greater than anything else I've seen.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 13:35:49 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: cyberD
Subject: What happened to GMJ Q&As?
Message:
cyber:

I'm sure there is nothing wrong with trying to take whatever good stuff you can from your involvement with Maharaji and trying to ignore the rest, but I think it's also important to recognize what a blatant fraud Maharaji has been, even if you think he had something to do with showing you meditation techniques that you like. [I would suggest it was probably some Mahatma who did that, and not Maharaji, by the way.] He held himself out to be god and that got people to do things that damaged them. Since then, as you say, he has not even acknowledged that such things happened and hasn't made any 'reforms.' I hope you take these facts into consideration in evaluating the pros and cons of this guy.

Dare I hope that K will ever evolve beyond the individual introductory phase to include a community and social value?

You can dare to do anything, but I wouldn't hold my breath. I have never heard of M even suggesting that he gives a crap about community and social values. In fact, he appears downright dismissive, almost hostile towards them.

I've done service at festivals and seen how powerful the experience of K can be in bringing cooperation and joy to group activities that otherwise are considered 'work'.

I think you might be giving more credit to the 'experience of K' in creating cooperation and joy. I enjoyed service with premies sometimes, but more often it just ended up being rather meaningless activity, and sometimes the goal of the service was to do nothing other than enrich Maharaji. I have also found that in other groups, the members of which are working towards the same goal, especially if it's a goal that the group members think is important, a great feeling of cooperation and joy exists, and in might experience it's more honest and real than I felt around premies.

I found this in the peace movement, in working with people with AIDS, and I know people in lots of religious groups report the same thing. It's the common goal and shared experience, not the particular belief, that creates that kind of cooperative experience. I would suggest that in any other dedicated group with a common purpose, you would experience the same thing.

What I witnessed just before GM shut down satsang and then the ashrams was that premies used those situations to garner personal power and seek social kudos.

Certainly this went on, and, by the way, from what premies say it STILL goes on, so I don't think Maharaji's so-called reforms have changed that. But I think it's also true that the majority of premies who dedicated themselves in service got no 'personal power' or 'social kudos' whatsoever. They WERE taken advantage of, for the benefit of Maharaji personally, and then, as in the case of the ashram premies, when they were no longer considered profitable after wasting years of their lives 'serving' him, Maharaji just dumped them. I don't see how you could be 'glad' about that.

I was glad GM pulled the plug, but disappointed that no reforms were made, the reasons were not addressed so we could learn and move forward, and now that we may be 'ex-communicated' if we violate a taboo against ever expressing anything but bliss about K and GM.

Very true. The reason for prohibiting dissent is because it's a cult, and that's the way cults work.

cyber, you seem to be concerned about the condition of the world, for yourself and your son. Don't you think you might have been able to do something more productive towards that end, than following Maharaji, who SAID that's what he was doing, at least in the beginning, but really wasn't?
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 14:15:30 (EST)
From: cyberD
Email: cyberdsgn@usa.net
To: JW
Subject: What happened to GMJ Q&As?
Message:
I'm sure there is nothing wrong with trying to take whatever good stuff you can from your involvement with Maharaji and trying to ignore the rest.

I sincerely appreciate the respect for individual discernment that you and others here have extended to my somewhat ambivalent expressions about K and M. I don't believe, however, that I may be fairly held to ignore the evidence of what you call M's 'blatant fraud', since I have visited and read many of the postings here with an open mind, after having independantly questioned M in public, following that up with correspondence regarding my reasons for the question and objections to his disregard for what I still believe to be a social obligation of any teacher toward a student - to address legitimate questions.

he had something to do with showing you meditation techniques that you like ...it was probably some Mahatma who did that

Studies from physiology to psychology to religion throughout the world now confirm the value of meditation, an understanding to which Maharaji has substantially contributed. My initiator was Michael Donner, who I admired for his own individual courage in acting upon conscience in opposing the military draft - not a mindless follower and one who clearly told us he was acting in GM's behalf.

He held himself out to be god and that got people to do things that damaged them.

I hear this one with sadness for those who feel damaged, and wonder why I do not feel damaged after having experienced many of the same events (I started in '76). My studies of Hindu religion and culture at the time revealed a long tradition of regarding guru as incarnation of god. This was a relatively new perspective in the West, however, and many apparently have, and still do, fail to view this issue within its cultural context, or perhaps embrace this mode as a reaction to the heartless and equally illogical religious beliefs of Judeo/Christianity. GM may be faulted, IMHO, for 'sins of omission' in allowing several misunderstandings that appear to have worked to his personal financial gain, and taken unfair advantage of the generosity of others. None of this was done, to my knowledge, against anyone's will, excepting perhaps the influence of 'group think', to which even many of the dissidents within these page once contributed. I feel fortunate for not having gone to the extremes of damaging self-abnegation, which, while perhaps not sufficiently stopped by GM, were wholly generated, in my experience, by an apparent strong desire of premies themselves to experience something 'absolute'. I too have indulged the experience of devotion in this journey, and have found it to have been instructive toward my understanding of my own divinity, and yours, as well as GM's.

I have never heard of M even suggesting that he gives a crap about community and social values.

Not certainly, in terms that would satisfy you or me in our belief that spiritual teachers have this responsibility. On balance I allow that K has contributed to me and others personally, and through us to the human race. I still hope, perhaps naively, that its potential might yet become more intentionally realized, obviously only by our own initiative rather than direction from the guru, whose direction we question in the first place! I am still baffled by premie's belief that we have been forbidden to gather to share satsang among ourselves, for instance, or engage in community according to our own understanding and experience of K.

It's the common goal and shared experience, not the particular
belief, that creates that kind of cooperative experience.


Couldn't agree with you more, and I don't see K under M as the exclusive way to experience the spiritual benefits of service, only that it remains my strongest personal example to date. I experienced the comradery of the peace movement too in demonstrations against the V war in politically-charged Madison, WI, as an anti-nuclear arrestee in Seabrook, NH with the Clamshell Alliance, and in various church groups including Unity, Unitarian Universalism, and Religious Science. IMNSHO, they have all lacked more of the socially beneficial elements of service than K. I've always found these groups to be mired in either an atheistic and mostly self-serving power interest in the guise of community service, or hypocritical lip service to principles of spiritual equality while acting out an authoritarian, and again self-serving, personal power interest.

after wasting years of their lives 'serving' him, Maharaji just dumped them. I don't see how you could be 'glad' about that.

I'm sorry that you, and others, feel that you wasted years of your lives in the ashram. That lifestyle seemed a bit extreme to me, and many others who chose a more relaxed 'premie house' situation. I've always found it curiously ironic that the most visibly 'devoted' people, in any religion, often later reject that religion the most! I am glad, however that GM responded to the strong, spontaneous, and independantly-voiced objections to the then woeful state of ashram devolution to self-serving power-tripping, a condition to which the honest and sincere ashram premies seem to have felt powerless to even voice, much less reform, and that non-ashram premies had to endure as the controlling influence of their own community spiritual involvement.

I scheduled an appointment with the initiator then visiting the Gainesville ashram, and in the public room there (his choice) I railled against the abuses of individual rights and spiritual values that were rampant within that community. About a week later, and a week before the satsang shutdown, a premie woman at a Miami Q&A with M publicly expressed her dismay with what premies were doing in his name. M responded in outrage: 'In my NAME? ... In MY name?' Others I know in other cities experienced a similar inner compulsion to voice these concerns, which I still regard as truely 'surrendered' acts of service, even though they earned us the suspicion, if not the scorn, of other premies. I just wish that we could learn from those mistakes and foster the genuine value of community in K that was also evident in our experiences. I don't see that there is much time left in human society to get it right. It's not all just M's responsibility, but I am willing to again risk personal approbation to suggest that he does have a responsibility to his students to address the tougher questions raised by his influencial role in our spiritual and social evolution, which he seems reluctant to do. Are we mature enough to allow him to address them without a pre-meditated (pun intended) condemnation for our own short-comings? Maybe I wouldn't bother either under those circumstances!

The reason for prohibiting dissent is because it's a cult, and that's the way cults work.

Well, I guess the only way to test this theory is to step up and express concerns honestly here, and see if the result is exclusion from M's 'events'. If it is, then I would be disappointed, as I and M and you have all been disappointed before- 'no big deal'. I could accept that there may be no further value for me to attend. Whoever M is, I am certainly not qualified to either confirm or deny his 'divinity' or anything else, but only, according to his own instructions as well as my inner knowing, to follow my individual experience wherever it leads. It has led me to continue meditation even with reservations about M, and to read and post views in this Forum. I am happy with being true to myself regardless of any expectation of a response, or possibility of retribution.

I admire the personal courage of others here to express their experience honestly too, however it may agree or disagree with mine or anyone else's, and I thank you for your repectful and thoughtful responses.
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 14:32:27 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: cyberD
Subject: What happened to GMJ Q&As?
Message:
Whoever M is, I am certainly not qualified to either confirm or deny his 'divinity'...

Do you have a brain? Are you human with at least an average IQ? Do you have common sense? Then you are very definitely qualified to answer this question. And the answer is NO HE'S NOT DIVINE!!!

Good god! or as Jim puts it, Jesus, cyberD!
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 16:22:37 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: cyberD
Subject: What happened to GMJ Q&As?
Message:
after having independantly questioned M in public, following that up with correspondence regarding my reasons for the question and objections to his disregard for what I still believe to be a social obligation of any teacher toward a student - to address legitimate questions.

So, what answers, if any, did you get to your public question and your following correspondence to Maharaji? I curious to know.

My initiator was Michael Donner, who I admired for his own individual courage in acting upon conscience in opposing the military draft - not a mindless follower and one who clearly told us he was acting in GM's behalf.

Do you know anything about how Michael Donner feels about Maharaji now? You might be interested to know.

GM may be faulted, IMHO, for 'sins of omission' in allowing several misunderstandings that appear to have worked to his personal financial gain, and taken unfair advantage of the generosity of others.

It goes a lot further than that, Cyber. He sat there and let us pranam to him, kiss his feet, call him the lord of the universe, wore crowns and sat on thrones. It is MUCH, MUCH more than just an 'Omission.' No, it's very clear that Maharaji actively participated in and promoted our perceptions that he was the incarnation of god on earth and played it all the way to the bank. And yes, he took unfair advantage of the sincere beliefs of perhaps slightly gullible people who sincerely believed him. That is a sin much worse than omission. It's a sin of fraud. By the way, he's never even taken any responsiblity for that either, nor has he even admitted he did it. That's another big sin in my book. He doesn't have much integrity as a human being, Cyber. He's so arrogant that he thinks he can just ignore what he's done and act like it never happened.

None of this was done, to my knowledge, against anyone's will, excepting perhaps the influence of 'group think', to which even many of the dissidents within these page once contributed.

Well, nobody held a gun to anyone's head if that's what you mean, but the coercion was definately there. Maharaji, once conning people into believing he was god, had incredible influence of what people did with their lives. Don't you see that? He also scared the shit out of people about what would happen to them if they left the ashram or stopped practicing knowledge. [Check out the quotes on this site if you don't recall.] It was much more than 'group think.' It came directly from him, no doubt about it.

You are indeed fortunate not to have wasted a decade of your life being poor and celibate in Maharaji's ashrams, but just because it didn't happen to have occurred to you, does that make it any less reprehensible? Have you ever heard Maharaji explain why the hell he did that?

I am still baffled by premie's belief that we have been forbidden to gather to share satsang among ourselves, for instance, or engage in community according to our own understanding and experience of K.

What's so difficult to understand? It's Maharaji's agya that premies giving satsang, and community service, are no longer part of his plan. Try organizing nightly satsang in your community and see what happens. Believe me, you, and anyone who tries to attend, will get 'talked to.'

I've always found it curiously ironic that the most visibly 'devoted' people, in any religion, often later reject that religion the most!

It is perhaps ironic, but it isn't surprising. It depends on how much your involvement cost you. If it didn't cost you much, even if you find out later it was all a fraud, you might be less concerned about it than if you gave up everything.

I am glad, however that GM responded to the strong, spontaneous, and independantly-voiced objections to the then woeful state of ashram devolution to self-serving power-tripping, a condition to which the honest and sincere ashram premies seem to have felt powerless to even voice, much less reform, and that non-ashram premies had to endure as the controlling influence of their own community spiritual involvement.

Is this what you REALLY think? You think that Maharaji closed the ashrams because some premies complained about them? Get real. People who were working closely with Maharaji at the time say he closed the ashrams because they were not longer considered the financial profit center they were in the past. That was it. He really didn't care at all about the people living there. So, he just dumped people, without comment, who had spent a decade or more dedicating to them there, and not leaving because he told them they shouldn't. Sorry, to burst this little bubble you have about this.
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Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 03:06:34 (EST)
From: cyberD
Email: cyberdsgn@usa.net
To: JW
Subject: What happened to GMJ Q&As?
Message:
So, what answers, if any, did you get to your public question and your following correspondence to Maharaji? I curious to know.

None at all, but the program cost was refunded, which I demanded, saying it was 'boring'. This was fair enough for me to accept without going to extremes.

Do you know anything about how Michael Donner feels about Maharaji now?

No I don't, but would be interested to know. I found this on the 'Premie Humor' thread: 'I know Donner told me he once tried to tease Maharaji for 'bogarting' a joint they were smoking. Well, actually, the way I think Donner told it to me, Maharaji didn't say much of anything and Donner didn't press the point.' While M's puported humorlessless is the point being made, at least he'd toke up, which is OK by me. Then again, this has to be taken as 3rd party hearsay. I would be surprised if Donner lasted long with the saccarin devotional mode that soon followed, but I would be equally surprised if he became actively anti-M. I'm rather sure he would encourage each to follow their own experience in the matter. While I liked and respected him, it wasn't on his recommendation that I learned K, nor would it be on his recommendation that I would reject it.

It is MUCH, MUCH more than just an 'Omission.'... he took unfair advantage of the sincere beliefs of perhaps slightly gullible people who sincerely believed him. That is a sin much worse than omission. It's a sin of fraud.

I certainly respect the conclusions you've drawn from your experience, and it would do you no good to accept the conclusions I've drawn from mine, any more than it would me to accept yours. Forgive me if I may have come across as pushing my view earlier. Still, it took you a good while to reach this current view as I understand, and you are obviously intelligent. So we have both had to come to some kind of terms with an experience and a person that has been somehow extraordinary.

He also scared the shit out of people about what would happen to them if they left the ashram or stopped practicing knowledge.

I never knew what he told the ashramees, and I guess I was afraid to find out. Somehow I knew instinctively that the ashram approach to M and K would not work for me. I do recall a lot of 'mind fear' talk in programs from about '78 to '80 and a very strong reliance on devotion as the cure. Many of the people who brought me to K left at that time and seemed to think they had to reject me to make the break. I see now that they were doing what they had to do. Others of us just shrugged, quaffed a few beers, and felt that meditation made it easier to weather the storm than did trying too hard to understand what it all meant. It seems to me now that M was actually trying to get rid of people by scaring them, but I can't imagine why. I think the main reason I have survived with an intact value of meditation, and at least a neutral regard for M, is that I didn't try to obtain a stronger 'surrender' or 'devotion' than felt natural for me. It seemed that a lot of others tried awfully hard. I know they thought they were supposed to. I guess you would say M told you to. Why is it that I just never did understand it that way? I remember him telling me to follow my own experience, so I just figured that being less than a saint was OK. I remember specifically that I decided to listen to his words without judgement of any kind. If they were true for me, then they would automatically produce their effect according to the nature of my being, without the need for thought. If they weren't true for me, then they would just sail through without effect. I guess I still approach it that way. I can hear you say that this was ignoring the evidence of fraud. I just know that it has worked for me to gain many benefits and avoid the drawbacks that others have reported.

just because it didn't happen to have occurred to you, does that make it any less reprehensible? Have you ever heard Maharaji explain why the hell he did that?

Well I hear that you believe it was reprehensible, and I believe that you are being honest, but you can't expect me to just adopt your experience as my own. No, I have not heard M explain much of anything past an introduction to K. This is what has brought me to question what this whole thing has been about.

I have looked to other sources to help me understand. Here's a quote from a purported recent 'revelation' called Conversations With God III: 'Whatever you choose for yourself, give to another... This is the value in having a guru... There has been a lot of negative energy in the West on the word 'guru'. It has almost become perjorative. To be a 'guru' is to somehow be a charlatan. To give your allegiance to a guru is to somehow give your power away. Honoring your guru is not giving your power away, it is getting your power. For when you honor the guru,.. what you say is, 'I see you.' And what you see in another, you can begin to see in yourself. It is outward evidence of your inner reality. It is outward proof of your inner truth. The truth of your being.'

Now I know that sounds like the kind of double-speak that we hear from M. But Ram Dass and others also describe the guru thing this way too. The point is that multiple sources relate the same kind of dichotomy, the same irony, the same ambiguity, the same extremes of apparent mutually-exclusive opposites. They also indicate that personal benefit is received even if the guru IS a fraud! The determining factor seems to be that one receives what one gives away. I've seen what looked to me to be an enormous amount of affected devotion to M. I don't know what kind of return that well-intentioned but self-deceptive honor could bring.

Why exactly is it that M doesn't even try to explain anything in understandable terms? Maybe because he's stupid, or a very clever fraud, or he wants us to understand on our own, or it would confuse the simple, or because others already explain it from other sources and that is not his role, or maybe it's just irrelevant to the whole process altogether to have to understand anything at all. I have found that I have a need for an understanding I can live with. I've had to look to others than M to find that. They all happen to point out the benefit of releasing thought by meditation. M happens to teach a pretty darn good meditation to do just that. So here I am full circle!

It's Maharaji's agya that premies giving satsang, and community service, are no longer part of his plan.

I've viewed a good number of his videos and I've never heard that. What if he told that to some but it was only them that he didn't want to do it? What if we did it anyway, would he turn us into frogs? Your're right, though, that the premies are completely uninterested. I've suggested it before. It could never be the same again, of course, nothing real ever is. What if this Forum itself became satsang? It just means the company of truth among those with spiritual knowledge.

It depends on how much your involvement cost you. If it didn't cost you much, even if you find out later it was all a fraud, you might be less concerned about it than if you gave up everything.

Yeah, I read here that people feel M cost them a lot. I could only recommend to anyone that they follow their feelings. Maybe I have just been stingy, and so haven't given enough time or money to feel ripped off, except by the lack of answers, or even intelligent questions in this whole thing.

You think that Maharaji closed the ashrams because some premies
complained about them? Get real. People who were working closely with Maharaji at the time say he closed the ashrams because they were not longer considered the financial profit center they were in the past.


I only know what I felt and saw. I saw the ashram in my town go from being a worthwhile place for community spiritual practice to a bunch of petty power trippers. Them M closed it. Kind of seemed to validate the strong objections I had recently expressed, though it seemed drastic to me too, and apparently left folks in the cold? I'm open to what people closer to the center of this thing have to say, that's why I'm here and will continue reading. I certainly feel cautioned by you and others. Thanks for the warning, I know you mean it sincerely. Don't worry about bursting my bubble. I only want the kind of truth that can stand up to honest scrutiny.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 19:14:15 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Game over, we lost
Message:
Well might as well cancel your internet accounts, change your names and start making some very longterm travel plans. Maharaji, it seems, has fulfilled his mission:

'Broni Doran
Melbourne, Australia

Satlink

I have to blow you a big kiss Maharaji for giving me the absolute pleasure of seeing and feeling you speak to the whole world. I could feel a sense of pride in all that you have achieved and that truly your dear father Shri Maharaji would be so proud of you, for now you have taken Knowledge to the whole world and linked it together. I could feel the dance of joy in my heart and as I saw the tears of love in your eyes, I felt so linked and so complete.

Yes. it's only technology that was used to allow this to happen but it was some other power that finally allowed the unique experience of your presence to be transmitted to join us all together, as Marolyn once said: 'Like one big garland'.'

Tell me -- where can a lowly ex go? At least I'm not as bad as some of you guys who really tore a strip of the Lord during this site's ill-conceived (but thankfully short-lived) period of acting out. I remember people here accusing Maharaji of being fat, greasy, ugly, stupid. I think Brian and Gerry were amongst the worst offenders. (Sorry fellas, it's not like I didn't try to stop you!) And JW, with his insistent 'analysis'. I mean, what the fuck WAS that anyway? Scott can be forgiven. The guy's obviously booksick or something. But JW? And you were a trusted community coordinator too at one point, weren't you?

Well, like I say, I think we should all simply boot it for a while. JM just got back from Yemmen or Tunisia or someplace like that. I take it he was scouting sites where we could all retreat lest this thing blow up in our faces. Well it has, as Broni so accurately describes. Maharaji's brought peace to the whole world and you people are in shit! Me? I was just kidding. But some of you so-called ex's actually took this whole thnig seriously. Watch out, guys! He's come with more power than ever before!

Happy new breath!
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 19:25:43 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Game over, we lost
Message:
I guess the folks in Iraq are happy to know that M has brought peace to the world!!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 23:23:12 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Game over, we lost
Message:
Yes indeedy. I had the fortune to see this irony very intensely
watching lOTU right before I found out about the bombings.
Irony is an understatement.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 19:26:29 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A new start
Message:
Oh Maharaji,

Since seeing you fulfill your father's mission and bringing peace to the whole word and everything, I've decided to look within. It took me a few seconds to remember the password but when I did, let me tell you! There, within inside, in my heart of all places, I found TONS of messages from you. Tons of little pink notes, 'Your heart is calling. Please contact Maharaji immediately!' Tons, Lord, tons. I never knew you cared so much. Well I did and I didn't, you know?

Anyway, I opened up to the truth inside and found new understanding in every breath. At last, I feel like a baby again. A newborn if not younger. And, like a newborn I feel that I really do have at long last that true understanding. It is the understanding of love, Maharaji. Never have I felt such gratitude, such joy, such beauty. Please, Maharaji, I have had this knowledge for 25 years and every single day has been nothing but joy, joy and more joy. Oh happy day! Oh happy breath! Oh happy NEW breath!!

Sure, there was a time I wandered lost in questions. At times I was so drunk on their fetid fumes I even sought answers. Imagine that...ANSWERS for my QUESTIONS! I was sick, Lord. What can I tell you? But those days are gone, my heart's recovered and, between you and me, all I can remember is the incredible joy of appreciation in that love of gratitude for the teacher who has shown eme the smile within the tear of love and giving to the giver, lesson of the teacher of all teachers, in truth, of gratitude and simplicity.

Maharaji, only thing I ask: can I have priority seating? Huh? PPPLLLEEEAAASSEEEE, Lord? Can I have the same seating I might hav ehad if I'd never left? I'm already arranging to give you some fo the money I -- sorry, ALL the money I would have had I kept the faith these many years. All I ask, Lord, is a chance to sit near you and feel your grace in the gift of the appreciation of the lesson of true understanding in your joy of love. Together, Lord, in love like a garland of hearts.

Happy new breath!
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 21:41:05 (EST)
From: The Big M
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: prove your love with $$$
Message:
Yes, Jim I've been watching over you and waiting for you to come back to my feet, but first there is the little matter of you making ammends and sending in all your outstanding and back pledges plus interest. I too have suffered greatly by your digression.

Please post your Visa/Mastercard number and all will be forgiven. Don't worry, I won't take more than I deserve.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 21:43:37 (EST)
From: blutarsky
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A new start
Message:
What the hell are you on you incandescent genius.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 13:36:36 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: blutarsky
Subject: Yeah!!!!!!
Message:
What the hell are you on you incandescent genius.
Can I have some too?
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 21:20:46 (EST)
From: dali
Email: dali@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: eb
Subject: I am the peaceable lobster now
Message:
You are quite the vermillion flavoured winner, my flouncy Guru. So charmingly heathen, your skin is like a teardrop on a popsickle. Your sunburnt skin is as beautiful as gangrenous flesh peeled from an amputated limb. Its a far far better thing I do than to require that you find me a hammer and pummel me with all due diligence, but yet remember that it is I, your solicitor, who keeps you from aligning too much with the listerine salesman.

Your eyes are like spheres of glue filled with shimmering worms. The perils of your eyelashes torture my libido into a state of crass belief in Roman Catholicism. May you always have stables of horses to service your needs.

Your fingers staple pine nuts into everything you touch. You are more beautiful than a bouquet of fossils. Sir, what exquisite breasts you have!

Flies dance operas to your wisdom.
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 05:05:14 (EST)
From: dali
Email: None
To: dali
Subject: Surrealist Compliment Generato
Message:
check out:

http://pharmdec.wustl.edu/cgi-bin/jardin_scripts/SCG


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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 09:15:05 (EST)
From: Melted Butter
Email: None
To: dali
Subject: I am the peaceable lobster now
Message:
Come, dip thyself into my golden liquid love. Thou hast truly seen the error of thine ways, but I forgive thee. Let me feast on thy devotion and we shall merge into blissful unity. My horses await thee.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 05:55:25 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A new start with love
Message:
At last, an ex- showing real humility!

Now you might start realizing just how much god loves you, and if god loves you then how much more does Maharaji love you!

And when you get close to maharaji again, please put in a word for Gail and any others who are persona non grata, because they need his love too, and as usual premies are destroying his mission by forgetting his compassion is infinite. When will they listen and stop doing actions from their own fears and thoughts, always interpreting his very simple and clear, non-confusing position.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 14:16:26 (EST)
From: Freddy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: RajaJi's Star Enterprises Inc?
Message:
Does anyone know of a company based in Miami in the mid 80's(85) owned by RajaJi. This company was basically a plane fitting operation for rich arabs and VIPs. They were fitting out exec Jets...I think the company was called Star Enterprises....I would be interested to know if anyone knows anything about this...

TIA
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 21:37:19 (EST)
From: srb--The Elephant Chair.
Email: None
To: Freddy
Subject: Raja's death star...*
Message:
Any company that had raja rawat listed as owner or
any other title was a front.

When saddam hussein can't trust people he appoints family
members to control positions.

There was never a day when raja rawat started a company
or put in any effort to sustain one.

During his brother prem pals airplane project, we were
working from 8 or 9 am to 2:30 in the morning 7 days a week.
Not everyone.

And during that time there was this big call for premies-
the lord was all bothered that this was not done yet so
they looked around to find more people to help.
The call went out among Miami premies that were allowed
to know about the plane effort. Prem was leaning on
the guys in charge to come up with some more bodies.

I remember thinking 'why doesn't raja come help? EVER?'

He was retired. As always.
During the late eighties and early nineties there was a time when
prem gave raja a last payment of 50,000 $ and said
'you are on your own'
I heard he ended up driving a taxi for a while.
May be true, why else would I have heard it?

I didn't hang out with non believers at the time.

prem had to pay his brothers way.
At least one reason is that prem fathered a child by raja's wife.
Little Navlata. New Vine.

I heard that when Marolyn found out, in the early eighties,
Claudia was no longer allowed in 'the residence'.

His royal (raja) spiritual highness came on to my wife when she
was an aspirant.
I'll have to have her refresh my memory on that one.

You might have been referring to the company that
made 'elephant chairs' plane seats with extra room that
little lord prem had the idea for.
He was into having new unique seats made for him so he
had the premies make him an airplane chair that was
extra specially ROOMY.
Called------The Elephant Chair.
It sold to the generously proportioned rich air traveler.
And it did have a market.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 06:31:18 (EST)
From: Freddy
Email: None
To: srb--The Elephant Chair.
Subject: Raja's death star...*
Message:
There was a guy I knew...I Saudi businessman...he had his jet overhaled...i.e. interior fitted and cooratde by a Miami company ownd by a Mr Singh (!!!) in 1985. He was offered the company for sale...and when the bought it from Mr Singh...turned out that it was already bankrupt...

I dont know if this Mr Singh is the same as Mr Rawat Sing....

TIA
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 12:45:45 (EST)
From: RT
Email: mmm
To: Freddy and DEC-ettes
Subject: Miami Dice
Message:
Hi.. DECA begat AIRCRAFT MODULAR PRODUCTS which made aircraft seats...a spin off of the Lord's ass.

A premie ran it after DECA disbanded in early eighties.
305/633-6817 at 4000 NW 36th Ave, Miami 33142 >> data from a 15 yr old ad.

Raji Ji lives in Stamford, CT and his business is buying and selling businesses. This I learned at Wrong Beach, 97.

facts to ponder and research.

RT
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 17:08:20 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Did MJ ever invent/create?
Message:
MJ has boasted many times about improvements HE MADE to airplanes--from the engine to the ergonomics. He also boasted about designing his house himself (we know the engineering boys did that). Of course, we have his art work, his poems, and his music (did he write the score?). Remember when he said the song 'Meditating On Your Love' would be a #1 hit, but it would never be sold commercially. Did he, in fact, ever invent or create anything?

Maybe he should rent out Amaroo and start churning out these #1 hits so that the premies could have a financial break. It really is NOT THAT MUCH OF A JOY TO CONTINUE a) handing over one's creations--design blueprints, business ideas, music, b) time and energy for free, and c) hard-earned cash.

In all probability, the only thing MJ can truly take credit for is the muddled thinking of his devotees.
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 01:17:44 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Miami Dice
Message:
Interesting- I wonder what his source of new businesses are.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 23:28:20 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Freddy
Subject: must be.
Message:
Do you stil have a way to contact the saudi
businessman?

That would be deca/the rawat singh brothers all right.
There was no other plane conversion company in miami
but the one we premies worked at.

Leroy West would have also ben involved in that scam.
he is the guy with maharaji.com
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 06:37:10 (EST)
From: J
Email: None
To: srb--The Elephant Chair.
Subject: Raja's death star...*
Message:
Are you seriously saying the M fathered a daughter from Claudia?
Can you prove this...or is it just a rumour?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 10:51:44 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: J
Subject: Raja's death star...*
Message:
Dear J -
I don't think the DNA tests are in on this one yet (in other words, I don't think it has been proven). Thus I don't think it should be stated as a fact. SRB may disagree with me here, but from what I've heard, the evidence is quite circumstantial.
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Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 14:52:47 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: What ever happened to Claudia?
Message:
Does she still live in England? Did she divorce? Did she denounce MJ. Does Raja Ji see his kids, etc.?
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Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 at 16:05:15 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: What ever happened to Claudia?
Message:
Gail - I don't know, but maybe someone else does (J-M, maybe?). There have been several unsubstantiated rumors about her on the site.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 23:31:24 (EST)
From: private eye
Email: None
To: J
Subject: Raja's death star...*
Message:
Get a strand of navlata's hair and we will have our
proof. Or ask Claudia
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Date: Thurs, Dec 17, 1998 at 23:34:08 (EST)
From: private eye
Email: None
To: private eye
Subject: Raja's death star...*
Message:
Fuzzbee e-mailed me saying I was bothering
people at the residence with this subject.
But no denials were heard.
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Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 at 17:36:57 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: private eye
Subject: Really???
Message:
Did Fuzzbee contact you because of what was read on this website? Did he just tell you to stop talking about it, or what? Specifics, please.

By the way, can anyone contact Claudia and get her point of view?
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 01:23:01 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: private eye
Subject: Raja's death star...*
Message:
Your eye must not be so private.

Great to hear the folks at the rez are attending this site.
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Date: Sat, Dec 19, 1998 at 01:15:21 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: srb--The Elephant Chair.
Subject: Raja's death star...*
Message:
Navlata? I can't believe it! Yes I can!
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