Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 32

From: Dec 10, 1998

To: Dec 22, 1998

Page: 5 Of: 5


Brian -:- Seeker of Truth - Mail to MJ -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 09:46:35 (EST)
__Brian -:- SoT - Mail to MJ (Part 2) -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 09:58:52 (EST)
____Mike -:- SoT - Mail to MJ (Part 2) -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 10:36:42 (EST)
______Zac -:- SoT - Mail to MJ (Part 2) -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 13:18:27 (EST)
______Helen -:- I agree w/Mike (nt) -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 23:54:18 (EST)
____Robyn -:- SoT - Mail to MJ (Part 2) -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 13:17:18 (EST)
____Maharaji -:- SoT - Mail to MJ (Part 2) -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 14:47:17 (EST)
____The Master -:- SoT - Mail to MJ (Part 2) -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 16:35:30 (EST)
______Seeker -:- SoT - Mail to MJ (Part 2) -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 16:56:47 (EST)
______Helen -:- SoT - Mail to MJ (Part 2) -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 00:00:16 (EST)
____Selene -:- SoT - Mail to MJ (Part 2) -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 21:17:04 (EST)
______Jim -:- I agree, Selene -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 21:34:20 (EST)
________Zac -:- I agree, Selene -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 21:50:09 (EST)
__________Selene -:- should have changed Subject -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 22:16:48 (EST)
____________Gail -:- What was that bliss stuff all -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 22:22:23 (EST)
______________Selene -:- What was that bliss stuff all -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 22:32:33 (EST)
________________Gail -:- Thanks. You're right! (nt) -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 22:43:07 (EST)
________________Sir David -:- It's no mystery -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 23:23:27 (EST)
__________________Barney -:- manipulating the venue -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 14:20:47 (EST)
____________________Helen -:- manipulating the venue -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 15:41:33 (EST)
____________________Robyn -:- manip, the venue (Barney) -:- Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 20:06:16 (EST)
______________________barney -:- thanks - the trance -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 02:39:22 (EST)
________________________Helen -:- PTSD -:- Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 08:04:22 (EST)
________________chr -:- What was that bliss stuff all -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 01:24:46 (EST)
__________________Robyn -:- What was that bliss stuff all -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 05:17:45 (EST)
______________TD -:- What was that bliss stuff all -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 07:45:53 (EST)
________________Helen -:- What was that bliss stuff all -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 10:15:03 (EST)
__________________TD -:- What was that bliss stuff all -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 22:44:39 (EST)
____________________Helen -:- What was that bliss stuff all -:- Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 19:23:48 (EST)
______________gerry -:- What was that bliss stuff all -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 13:13:51 (EST)
__________Jerry -:- Knowledge doesn't work -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 06:05:25 (EST)
____________zac -:- Knowledge doesn't work -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 08:05:19 (EST)
____dv -:- SoT - Mail to MJ (Part 2) -:- Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 01:16:14 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Thanks SoT -:- Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 18:35:57 (EST)
__Brian -:- SOT's Journeys entry -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 10:15:38 (EST)
____Helen -:- SOT's Journeys entry -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 10:21:08 (EST)
______Helen -:- SOT's Journeys entry -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 11:07:39 (EST)
________Brian -:- SOT's Journeys entry -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 14:02:24 (EST)
__________Helen -:- SOT's Journeys entry -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 15:56:02 (EST)

Victoria -:- Arti Lyrics -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 23:55:30 (EST)
__david m -:- M Nouri -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 00:19:01 (EST)
____Paul -:- M Nouri -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 11:25:35 (EST)
______david m -:- M Nouri -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 15:43:26 (EST)
________Richard P -:- M Nouri -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 16:27:16 (EST)
__________Helen -:- Regis on knowledge -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 20:18:40 (EST)
____________Selene -:- Regis on knowledge -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 20:34:36 (EST)
______________Helen -:- Martha, -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 23:05:47 (EST)
______________Jerry -:- Nouri in The Hidden -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 20:31:11 (EST)
________________shp -:- Nouri in The Hidden -:- Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 21:36:23 (EST)
______Katie -:- M Nouri -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 14:07:14 (EST)
________q -:- M Nouri -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 19:47:46 (EST)
__Brian -:- Arti Link -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 01:08:18 (EST)
____Helen -:- Arti Link -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 20:24:56 (EST)
______Victoria -:- Arti Link - thanks -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 22:57:26 (EST)
____Jim -:- Just how fucked IS India? -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 20:50:33 (EST)
______Runamok -:- Just how fucked IS India? -:- Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 02:00:03 (EST)
________PS -:- Just how fucked IS India? -:- Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 04:25:16 (EST)

Jim -:- Stripteasing one's scruples -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 22:03:56 (EST)
__Nigel -:- The biggest lie -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 22:29:24 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- The biggest lie -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 00:01:55 (EST)
__Jerry -:- Stripteasing one's scruples -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 09:50:32 (EST)
__Mike -:- Stripteasing one's scruples -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 10:24:24 (EST)
__JW -:- Stripteasing one's scruples -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 11:00:37 (EST)
__Nimrod -:- M's 'principles' quote -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 16:53:05 (EST)
____Saul -:- M's 'principles' quote -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 00:04:55 (EST)
____shp -:- M's 'principles' quote -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 13:33:59 (EST)
______Nimrod -:- M's 'principles' quote -:- Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 18:46:44 (EST)
________shp -:- M's 'principles' quote -:- Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 21:28:58 (EST)
__________Helen -:- M's 'principles' quote -:- Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 22:14:13 (EST)
____Helen -:- M's 'principles' quote -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 17:20:43 (EST)
______nigel -:- He's improvising -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 19:01:06 (EST)
________Helen -:- He's improvising -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 20:58:40 (EST)
__________Katie -:- Understanding M? -:- Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 15:14:27 (EST)
____________Helen -:- Understanding M? -:- Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 19:06:24 (EST)
______________Helen -:- Is GM evil? -:- Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 22:59:22 (EST)

Brian -:- Lost posts on enjoyinglife.org -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 15:24:33 (EST)
__Mike -:- It just keeps gettin' better! -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 16:44:35 (EST)
__Jim -:- Lost posts on enjoyinglife.org -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 17:15:10 (EST)
____shp -:- art appreciation -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 17:20:53 (EST)
______gerry -:- hey, who's the ringer...nigel -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 18:54:19 (EST)
________CD -:- hey, who's the ringer...nigel -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 21:11:29 (EST)
__________nigel -:- hey, who's the ringer... CD -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 21:32:43 (EST)
____________CD -:- hey, who, what was good -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 22:02:07 (EST)
______________nigel -:- Answer me one question -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 22:14:31 (EST)
________________shp -:- cd's full name -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 22:55:06 (EST)
__________________Mike -:- Good one, shp (nt) -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 09:35:47 (EST)
______________Jim -:- Chris's quandry -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 22:15:47 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Nigel, you have no idea! -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 22:10:45 (EST)
__Helen -:- Lost posts on enjoyinglife.org -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 21:14:26 (EST)
__Willi Kranz -:- Lost posts on enjoyinglife.org -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 21:42:10 (EST)
____Brian -:- thanks, Willi... ...i guess... -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 22:05:35 (EST)
______dv -:- thanks, Willi... ...i guess... -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 00:00:04 (EST)
________Jim -:- kidding a kidder? -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 21:22:43 (EST)
__________dv -:- kidding a kidder? -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 22:23:08 (EST)
____________Jim -:- kidding a kidder? -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 23:05:18 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Lost posts on enjoyinglife.org -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 14:26:10 (EST)
__nigel -:- Could be time -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 23:11:27 (EST)
____Helen -:- Could be time -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 23:36:02 (EST)
____david m -:- Could be time -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 00:28:59 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Could be time -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 14:28:59 (EST)
____Brian -:- Could be time -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 01:14:01 (EST)
__TD -:- Lost posts on enjoyinglife.org -:- Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 06:43:59 (EST)

shp -:- on friendship -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 15:22:45 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Rita -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 16:01:13 (EST)
____Mike -:- Rita -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 16:10:55 (EST)
______Helen -:- That's beautiful, man -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 20:35:45 (EST)
________shp -:- just wanted you to know... -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 20:44:11 (EST)
__________nigel -:- hang in there... -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 21:02:21 (EST)
__________Helen -:- shp read... -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 21:06:19 (EST)
__________Gail -:- just wanted you to know... -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 21:31:44 (EST)
____________dv -:- just wanted you to know... -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 00:09:32 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- a fractured tale -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 22:26:12 (EST)
__________Mike -:- To shp -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 09:51:17 (EST)
____________Mickey the Pharisee -:- To shp -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 13:32:59 (EST)
______________shp -:- To mickey the fair-I-see -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 14:18:58 (EST)
________________Jerry -:- To mickey the fair-I-see -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 14:54:44 (EST)
____eb -:- Rita -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 17:34:06 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- Rita -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 17:46:40 (EST)
______Mike -:- Do I know you? -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 18:03:18 (EST)
________eb -:- Do I know you? -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 06:14:53 (EST)
____Helen -:- Rita -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 20:30:28 (EST)
__shp -:- ajw, i read your journey... -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 19:13:45 (EST)
____x -:- good work, shp! -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 02:15:12 (EST)

dv -:- Guess who's birthday's today? -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 00:21:58 (EST)
__Big M -:- It's mine! It's mine! -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 04:25:56 (EST)
____The Big Guy, again -:- I forgot -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 10:45:31 (EST)
______Gooomradji -:- Birthday Presents -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 11:03:28 (EST)
________Perfect Master -:- Birthday Presents -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 11:16:50 (EST)
__________Mike -:- Bang? -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 11:22:12 (EST)
____________david m -:- Bang? -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 11:48:52 (EST)
__________Gail -:- Remember the Aston Martin? -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 16:05:27 (EST)
____________Helen -:- HAHAHAHAHA!! -:- Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 22:38:03 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- I've got 30,000,000 for yah! -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 23:23:09 (EST)
______The Big Guy, once more -:- Another simple request -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 13:00:22 (EST)
________dv -:- Another simple request -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 23:31:38 (EST)
____Mike -:- It's mine! It's mine! -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 11:12:25 (EST)
______shp -:- who's birthday? -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 14:12:16 (EST)
________Mike -:- In that case -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 14:21:11 (EST)
__________shp -:- mike, check older posts... -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 14:24:05 (EST)
____________Mike -:- mike, check older posts... -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 14:39:03 (EST)
____________Katie -:- the fishes -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 16:00:16 (EST)
__Runamok -:- Guess who's birthday's today? -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 16:27:41 (EST)
____shp -:- cesar franck -:- Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 16:42:29 (EST)
__dv -:- Guess who's birthday's today? -:- Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 00:22:08 (EST)

Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 09:46:35 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Seeker of Truth - Mail to MJ
Message:
This is taken from a new Journeys entry that arrived yesterday. It's big enough that it has to be broken into 2 posts. I chose to share this in the forum readers. Maharaji chose, and continues to choose, to ignore it and others like it. I'll get the Journeys entry online after I have some more coffee. And, Seeker of Truth, email me please.

Seeker of Truth writes:

I could write a lot about how I was deceived. But at the moment I need to keep my identity to myself, so for now I'd just like to publish the letter I wrote to M in 1989. It's still just as relevant today as it was then and I still haven't received a reply.

1989 Australia
Dear Maharaji,

My name is _____. I received knowledge sixteen years ago. I worked for many years in full time service as an administrator and lived in an ashram.

During this time I devoted myself to you and your work. The more I gave the more I received. The experience of bliss was overwhelming - not a series of fleeting moments, but a continuous flow punctuated by profound experiences that transcended this dimension.

I now find myself in a very different situation. Doubt in your judgement and the clarity of those around you overwhelms my faith in you. I'm asking for your help to confront a number of issues that when resolved will hopefully lead me to a clearer understanding of myself and what is true or false.

At this stage in my life there is only one thing more important to me than knowledge and my relationship to you and that's the truth. Without it I will never have a foundation upon which to build. So I'm writing in an attempt to confess my concerns and face up to what appears to be happening. I know what appears to be is not necessarily the truth. I'm aware I have a limited perspective and hope my straightforward approach doesn't offend you.

Despite your efforts and best intentions it appears you are losing support in Australia. I suspect from your opening remarks at a recent program that you do not know why.

Few of the original wave of 'premies', and only a small percentage of more recent recipients now attend programs, or have much to do with Elan Vital. Perhaps some are practising knowledge and don't feel the need to participate in other ways. Others may lack inspiration to meditate and not realise its value.

There is, however, a long list of unexplained anomalies and confusing contradictions directly related to you that have never been explained, and contribute to people's lack of commitment. Many of these unresolved issues date back to when you were very young and could be explained because of your naivety, cultural conditioning and family influences. For this reason, the past may be best forgotten and it could be, if there hadn't been an effort to cover it up. When recent recipients of knowledge hear rumours of you sitting upon the throne encouraging 'devotion to the Lord of the Universe' it raises questions that don't get answered. Even though you have gone to great lengths to bury the past, it will be a problem unless there is a clearer explanation. I personally think the image change was the only sensible course open to you, but making the change brought up lots of questions. Over the years you have only made passing references to the subject and never really resolved it.

Much could be said about the 'Lord of the Universe' era - extravagant gifts, 'Rolls Royces', fast cars, the ill-conceived passenger jet project and more. Forgive me for saying, for those who don't know, your past reads like that of a playboy with little sensitivity for the plight of the third world or the need to set an example of moderation to consumers in the west.

Your lifestyle was accepted and actually encouraged by devotees because of your spiritual status. Nevertheless it was something that kept us justifying your actions to parents and friends for years. It presented a barrier to many moderate Christian-minded folk who had an understandable image of a humble spiritual leader.

In hindsight, your apparent lifestyle made knowledge unavailable to many who would have benefited from meditation and your wonderful non-conceptual approach.

Nearly all evidence of the past - tapes, films, magazines - have been recalled and most of it probably destroyed. There have been various debriefings by instructors where terminology was changed and we were told what we could and could not say. I believe your motives are good but your change of image was a sensitive issue that needed more direct communication from you.

One could be forgiven for suspecting we have not learnt the most obvious lessons from the past, as mistakes are repeated and there is more potential than ever for confusion.

Your attitude to money must be confusing to many conservative people. On one hand you never have enough (and as a result it is a persistent issue), and on the other you appear to condone it's waste. This was acceptable when you were happy to be perceived as 'The Lord'. As many devotees thought you held the divine purse strings and could open them at will. Obviously this was never the case. Money is a convenient way of using limited energy. Its waste contributes to the demise of the planet. Ambitious ill-conceived projects that cost, or lost, many thousands of dollars litter the history of DLM and Elan Vital. If I am incorrect I would like to be set right. No doubt you have lost support because others like myself have this impression.

We now have the unfortunate situation where knowledge is free but to see you even on video costs a lot. We must all suspect this is a major contributing factor to the decrease in program attendances. Who can blame people? Practising knowledge is a challenge as you have said; no immediate results are guaranteed no matter how sincerely it is practised!

Continued in next part.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 09:58:52 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Brian
Subject: SoT - Mail to MJ (Part 2)
Message:
Part 2 of Seeker of Truth's mail to Maharaji:

For some premies to attend a program means taking time off work, going interstate or overseas, and paying a considerable amount to hear you speak. Knowledge is now virtually unavailable to the working class and the unemployed by virtue of the fact that an integral part of practising it is attending programs. Is this correct? Could programs be funded by budgeting and cutting out unnecessary expense?

Your choice of a $50,000 sports car for your birthday, to be housed at your Brisbane residence for your exclusive use whenever you visit Australia, adds to my doubts about your judgement.

Your attitude towards instructors and administrators appears to be arrogant and unappreciative. If you act like the 'headmaster' and chastise your students you will stifle objective criticism and be kept from knowing the truth. Most people I'm referring to have given a great deal of their time and effort and need encouragement. Passing the blame when ultimately you are in charge and therefore responsible is not on. At the last Adelaide program you said 'They were supposed to bring the seed but they brought the whole tree'. In fact you watered and promoted the growth of that tree for years whilst 'Mahatmas' I knew (quite well) only tried to serve you according to their understanding.

Your suggestion that you don't need administrators and instructors, that you are choosing to let them help, and could do it all alone, may sound fine to some but sounds crazy to me. It sounded just as foolish to hear you quoted as saying you would give knowledge yourself and dispense with instructors completely. Since that statement I am told you have changed your mind and have ordained four instructors. Can you forgive me for thinking you say things off the top of your head and don't think things through? I could give you a few other examples but I feel it would be rather impolite.

I don't blame you when you get a bit frustrated by the efforts of instructors and administrators. There may be some excellent people amongst them but I've seen some hopeless cases with far too much responsibility blundering about making a mess of things. I can't work out why with so many amazing people in this world, working hard for world peace in so many different ways, more aren't serving you.

For years poor communication of your direction by instructors and initiators has been given as the reason behind so many decision changes dating back to the first dissolution of the ashrams. Poor communication has sometimes seemed like an excuse simply because there was no explanation, at least you gave none and others happily took the blame (eg. 'it must be us because Maharaji can do no wrong'). Lots of problems could have been solved years ago by the introduction of tapes and videos addressing a variety of issues, especially major changes that were difficult to interpret and affected peoples' lives dramatically. It was too much to expect others with second hand information could represent you accurately. In an age where international organisations communicate effectively by fax, tape and video, it's beyond me why you don't avail yourself of the same technology. If we have nothing to hide even if a few tapes etc went missing it wouldn't matter anyway.

At a recent meeting of regular contributors, in answer to questions put to Jan McGregor regarding a long term premie who was confused and distressed by some of the concerns I've expressed in this letter, she said, 'They are free to leave it's their choice'. These people deserve more consideration than that! An instructor recently said, 'People have to make up their minds to support Maharaji and practise knowledge or not'. I find these attitudes disturbing. They suggest to me a lack of understanding of the commitment people have made, the crisis they now face and the REAL issues at hand. These attitudes are too cold and clinical for me to accept. Surely they do not reflect your attitudes.

It's fruitless for me to talk to premies about the issues raised in this letter. Some premies have the attitude you can do no wrong, others are afraid of dissent, or afraid to examine their faith. Some honestly just think I'm out of it.

I SHOULD be confused considering you are my spiritual guide and inspiration and I appear to be questioning and criticising! Nevertheless, even though it's hard, because I have discriminated between the spiritual and the material it's not as hard as it could be. I have no doubts the experience we seek is inside and that meditation is the way to access it. I love your non-conceptual, non-dogmatic approach. I like your personality (when you don't waffle on, get off the track, waste words and appear arrogant). I don't doubt your commitment and sincerity. The saving grace for me is that above all I want the truth whether it suits my ideas or not. If in the light of that truth I'm a fool,
so be it.

Even though I can't see I deserve it I have been blessed with insight and have an experience that is difficult to talk about. Even though it almost drowns beneath a pile of trivia and day to day mundanity, when I dive deep I feel it and I'm left with that warm 'of course, how could I ever forget' feeling and I sometimes remember the first time we met, wave upon wave of bliss.

I hope you're still reading and that this letter helps us both in some way. Forgive the heavy stuff. Perhaps one day we will meet.

Sincere regards, A seeker of truth.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 10:36:42 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: SoT - Mail to MJ (Part 2)
Message:
Brian: I'm going to ask a rhetorical question.... 'Who is/was this masked man?????' WOW! In 1989, yet!

Who ever you are, you have my undying respect (if for no other reason than pure 'guts'.)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 13:18:27 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: SoT - Mail to MJ (Part 2)
Message:
Could not have been put better. I'll sign my real name to that if it is resubmitted.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 23:54:18 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Seeker
Subject: I agree w/Mike (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 13:17:18 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Brian
Subject: SoT - Mail to MJ (Part 2)
Message:
Dear Brian,
I don't know it this is correct but I see this person at first stepping gingerly on the shattered glass and as they go on they become more assertive and clear. I wonder how long they hung on after they wrote this and also if they continued to or do still meditate.
I echo Mike's respect for this person's guts in stepping up to a difficult position of facing reality in the cult.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 14:47:17 (EST)
From: Maharaji
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Brian
Subject: SoT - Mail to MJ (Part 2)
Message:
Dear premies; I feel very bad about the way in which many of you have left me. Every night I cry on my pillow thinking about all those loving devotees who willingly gave their lives to me and sacrificed everything for me because they believed I was the Lord. I also feel very ashamed that I openly propogated this myth that I was God incarnate.

The suffering of my ex-premies overwhelms me and I cannot get a moments peace while you are all at loggerheads with me. Please forgive me dear, kind-hearted ex-premies. I would like to call a special meeting for all of the ex-premies in order to open my heart to you and ask for your forgiveness. Let us be friends again and let it be as it should be; you and I helping one another to bring peace to this troubled world.

And pigs might fly...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 16:35:30 (EST)
From: The Master
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: SoT - Mail to MJ (Part 2)
Message:
1998 Malibu Dream House

Dear Seeker,

I know I just said recently in India that I intend to just ignore my critics. I mean, after all, why should I, the Master, respond to them? The Master has better things to do, all of which he does very well, perfectly in fact, than to respond to ungrateful and confused human beings like yourself. But as I also said, I am not a dead perfect master, so I can change my mind.

What the hell is the matter with you? You do not have the right to even look at Maharaji, let alone criticize him. Didn't you hear me when I said that in the Kissimmee swamp in 1979? What a stupid and confused human being you are! I threw your letter in the trash years ago, but now that it's on the internet, a medium I recently discovered as possibly being profitable ($$$) to me, I decided to make the supreme sacrifice, one of many I make every day for the people of this world, to respond to you. And do I get ANY thanks for all those sacrifices? Hardly. I get letters like yours, that's what I get. I just may have to kick you accross three universes for that, you ungrateful sod!

Regarding the past and what happened then, I just don't understand your concern. I had a wonderful time, really I did, especially back in the 70s. It was so blissful and beautiful, and I enjoyed life very much. It was absolutely perfect and fantastic. Life is so wonderful when you have knowledge (along with servents, unlimited sources of cash, and thousands of people worshipping you). And it's still pretty great. I continue to have a great time. If you would just understand how wonderful it is and was, it would be okay. Your mind is just being the devil it is and making you think about things. You should never let doubt enter your mind. You should never think about things, especially about me, the contradictions, my behavior, and whether or not this knowledge is working for you.

Regarding how I deal with money, come on! I SPEND it. It's great. Don't be confused. Remember, I am a LOTUS. A LOTUS!!! Just say that to yourself over and over and over. Money is just a kind of energy. I guess I just attract money. It's just the way things are and money is made to be spent. I mean, why not? And boy, I have been REALLY GOOD at doing THAT! If that's confusing to people they are just lacking in proper understanding. And you have to have the proper understanding. Not just concepts, but real understanding. If you understand, you know I have been having a good time, and it's so beautiful, and that's all that matters.

Regarding helping people in the third world, get real! How many times do I have to tell you that story about the guy at the pearly gates who gets his quarter back and sent to hell? It's pretty obvious, right? And how many times do I have to tell you that story about the woman who cleans her house for her whole life all for the purpose of having the master show up there for 5 minutes and drink tea? You are not understanding these profound parables, despite my grace in telling them to you.

And then you complain about my choice of birthday present!!! How dare you. A $50,000 sports car was just barely up to my standards, and you know what? I think it SUCKED. Yes, SUCKED!! There was a Ferrari that I would have preferred, but the premies in Australia where just tres cheap, undevoted and lacking in gratitude. I have to put up with this all the time. You may call this arrogant, I call it getting the minimum of what I deserve.

So, if you don't like it, take a walk!! Just remember you will be forever miserable, confused, and hell-bound if you do.

Regards,

Prem Pal Singh Rawat
The Master of our Time
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 16:56:47 (EST)
From: Seeker
Email: None
To: The Master
Subject: SoT - Mail to MJ (Part 2)
Message:
Thank you oh great master for clarifying that for me. How could I have ever doubted you? The next car will be a Lamborghini, I swear it.
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 00:00:16 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: The Master
Subject: SoT - Mail to MJ (Part 2)
Message:
Whoever you are , 'Master', that is an excellent piece of writing. That is exactly how I envision our dear Guru's response to be. How he loves us in all his mercy!
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 21:17:04 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: seeker of truth
Subject: SoT - Mail to MJ (Part 2)
Message:
Even though it almost drowns beneath a pile of
trivia and day to day mundanity, when I dive deep I feel
it and I'm left with that warm 'of course, how could I ever
forget' feeling and I sometimes remember the first time
we met, wave upon wave of bliss.

Taht was the hook for most of us in the 70's. Hunter Thompson called it looking for an express way to realization. I felt it
too, and believe me, I miss it. If I thought for a second that M could give that to me I'd go back (after 11 months away) But, you can only beat a dead horse so much. The horse didn't get up and live; *and* I have to go on with my life. But the way you wrote those words helped me remember why I hung on so long. Thank you. That initial feeling of being connected to something big something real that was life-changing was powerful.
Many other things you said hit home. How M expects his close people to just understand and pass on the latest change in image, structure, is an impossible expectation. Really, I think even the most incompetent administrator even where I work MAY have paid attention to that part and written back or something!
It was damned good advice.
Sorry you went through that. Thanks for writing.

go on in peace,
Selene, already have a New Year's resolution - check typos!
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 21:34:20 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I agree, Selene
Message:
Yes, that's it. SOT has so well expressed that particular balance point I once perched on. Kind of like falling over a cliff and grabbing a few roots before the final plunge. The fact is, KNOWLEDGE IS FAKE. Yet we'll never really understand the trickery until we understand the brain better.

Can we live with that mystery?

What are our options?

For me, that's jut an incientive to try to keep up on neuroscience a bit. I'd hate it if the explanation for the k hit surfaced in some quarter of science and I just didn't know.
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 21:50:09 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I agree, Selene
Message:
Knowledge isn't fake Jim.
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 22:16:48 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: should have changed Subject
Message:
Line.
I don't think you do agree with me...

I know or course that you were responding to Jim. But, since my name WAS in the subject line I'll put in my 2 cents.

Meditation is meditation. There are many techniques. Basically my understanding is meditation changes the wave frequency in the brain.
Alpha to Beta ( or vice versa, can't remember)
So the techniques M showed do it. So what? they have been around
forever. Others have equally good results with other techniques.
Waiting for a haircut I read Meg Ryan has a guru that teaches a meditation that helps her. So? He isn't claiming to be 'The One'
Knowledge as it is propogated and marketed by M , in my opinion
is very fake. So, I agree with Jim about that. The beneficial results of relaxation are not fake. But there are many paths. I prefer running. Or a shot of cognac. Now where did I get that from?
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 22:22:23 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: What was that bliss stuff all
Message:
about? For my first few years in the cult, I used to get higher than a kite. Totally gonzoed. I loved that feeling. Does anyone know how to get high like that on our own?
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 22:32:33 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: What was that bliss stuff all
Message:
What was it about? You know that
I know you already know that Gail (geez I sound like M there)

I'll just add my comments since I am on a roll in forum for a few more minutes:
A: we were young and idealistic. We were also, many of us, stoned or otherwise screwed up from the 50's generation stuff. No offense I forgive you mommy.

B: The bliss comes from believing something can work! Belief is powerful. Humans are given a power to make things happen if they have a stong enough vision.
C: That vision was reinforced. Day after day. Night after night.
Endless mass group gatherings where we all came together and added to the belief.
In Wicca they say and individual witch can be powerful, but a circle made up of a coven can accomplish more global energy changes like removing negative energy from someone, etc.
Not much different from the Catholic Novenas. OR whatever.
So we fell for it. Got high. Of course we got high. WE wanted to!
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 22:43:07 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Thanks. You're right! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 23:23:27 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Selene
Subject: It's no mystery
Message:
That's good Selena. A very good explanation. And there's more science and psychology here than premies would like to admit. Yes Jim, science can explain much of knowledge. Lab tests have been done on people who are meditating and their brain waves change towards the Alpha state. Their brains become flooded with Alpha waves.

I could find out more about the nectar technique and put it here if required but the gist of it is that there is a hormone centre behind our nose somewhere and the nectar technique can stimulate that.

OK the above is biological but if you look at psychology then you'll see that suggestion or autosuggestion can have a very powerful effect on people. A most dramatic effect. Powerful speakers are able to transmit simple commands which directly enter into the subconscious of the listener and get to work. Sir Winston Churchill's speaches were remarkable simple and yet very effective in mobilising people and inspiring them to die for their country. That's powerful suggestion at work.

Martin Luther King's speaches were just Biblical texts in many cases and yet it is simple messages, spoken powerfully which move people and get directly into their subconscious mind and start to work. These 'simple commands' can be used as a form of therapy also and can be life transforming but when an orator uses them, they can do it for the good of the listeners or for the good of the speaker.

Personally, Maharaji's speaches always grated on me. They never blissed me out but people with the right psychological chemistry would get very elated listening to him. It's just the power of suggestion and nothing more. But it is very, very powerful for a receptive listener and can make them believe that Maharaji is God.

I think one of the best and most moving orators I have ever heard was Adolf Hitler. And I don't understand German. But when you see his speaches translated they are just very simple statements like, 'The Fatherland lives off the sweat of the workers'. Unfortunately he used his powerful oratory for ill and yet he was utterly adored all over Germany right to the end. He had got into the subconscious minds of the people by his simple, powerful commands.

Maharaji has done the same but to a much lesser degree. But he has got inside peoples' heads, not by an intallectual argument but by simple concepts, powerfully expressed.
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 14:20:47 (EST)
From: Barney
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: manipulating the venue
Message:
Regarding Hilter, and I am not positive about this, but one technique he used to invoke a desired response from the audience was to have the hall temperature too hot. I suppose that this would wear you out and make you cranky and make you wanna yell Seig Heil or Bhole Shri.

For sure, BM has learned to hone the venue for his advantage. Look at the elaborate stages made up to be like a king's castle with the absolute focal point being himself.

As Selene mentioned about wiccans having more power in a circle than alone, in psychological literature there is concept as the 'collective third person' in terms of where more than two or more people gathered together create a, well, group conciousness thingy.

Another aspect to consider are your expectations. Certainly, our expecations were that BM was Gawd. And, BM certainly played that card for everything it was worth. And, maybe he really believes it himself.

I think that all of these concepts and venue manipulating techniques go a long way to explain why we felt something so powerful. And, it's really interesting to read posts on this site about the day-to-day encounters with BM when he is outside of the well groomed venue that he can be a nice guy or a total asshole.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 15:41:33 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Barney
Subject: manipulating the venue
Message:
Good points, Barn. And think of all the times at those festivals when we were weary & weak from traveling, sleep deprivation, etc. Think of all the premies who pulled night after night of all nighters serving the lawd. Easier to surrender when you're half dead with exhaustion.
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Date: Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 20:06:16 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Barney
Subject: manip, the venue (Barney)
Message:
Dear Barney,
Regarding Hitler and influence over the masses: I don't know if you saw this link before but it was EXCELLENT. Can't remember who left it but hope it is interesting to you.
http://www.ctyme.com/bwash/bwash.htm#e
Happy reading.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 02:39:22 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: thanks - the trance
Message:
very interesting to read about the various techniques and the alpha state.

While I do believe that meditating can have benefit and I might start doing it from time to time after I remove my association of BM from it, I also now and finally believe that the experience of seeing the BM speak is one similar to that mentioned in that link.

At my last program/festival/brainwash I felt myself just about to totally trance out as the BM was getting to the serious point where he was alluding heavily that he was Gawd. However, as people were catching the drift of his allusion (or is that illusion) the 'Happy Clappers', as AJW so aptly called them in his Journey, starting clapping and I snapped out of it. It was a bit disappointing like coitus-interuptus or your spliff goes out and you've lost the matches or lighter.

But, at the time he was speaking softly and probably in a slow beat. He had, of course, already done the bit on how horrid the world was and now he was serving up and selling the solution. And, ultimately, the entire event was carefully groomed for that stony moment.

So, to lurking Premies who claim that we (the ex's) have never felt anything - it's simply not true. Many, if not most of us, did. I had lots of very incredible experiences. Yet, I also suffered greatly (oh, that sweet suffering, the longing, the thirst...) because of the sick overt teachings that accompanied the magic. Ultimately, there's just too much B.S. and there are, alas, some simple and clinically reproducible explanations for the so-called subjective phenomena that you attribute to your living, money hungry God.

Thanks, Robyn, for giving me this opportunity to wax poetically and to further purge myself.
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Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 at 08:04:22 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: PTSD
Message:
That there is some good writin' Barn. (Seriously) It brought it all back to me (I'm having post traumatic stress just reading it) Help me help..where are my muscle relaxants--I have to get ready for the DC beltway...aaeeiiii
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 01:24:46 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: What was that bliss stuff all
Message:
I think it was more than just idealism.Meditation done regularly can have a profound effect. Ive had some wonderful experiences since leaving M ,using other techniqes.Also when a group focuses together it definitely creates a high feeling.Other groups experience it too.The deception was, as others have said, that M was the lord,the only way etc.1989 was about the time I left too.Iknow of a few people who tried to get answers from M without success.One even asked him directly about the ashram and the past.M told him all that mattered was the love and to just focus on that.Unfortunately he wasnt feeling very loved by M at the time.I used to oscillate,at this time, between thinking M was sincere,and thinking he was self gratifying ,deluded and disturbed.I gave up trying to work it out.I just knew the whole trip wasnt for me anymore.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 05:17:45 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: chr
Subject: What was that bliss stuff all
Message:
Dear Chr,
I think I agree with you. I understand that there are scientific explinations for why meditation works to calm the mind and that is fine but when science works to get you to an end you are after then you use it right? The thing the science does here is dispell the myth of LOTU which is great but it doesn't take away from the good effects meditation has on a person from day to day.
I'd never heard any scientific explinations about the nectar technique, thanks Sir.
Selene, all your typos remind me so much of Jessica, I wonder if Ellen noticed that? And you know how much I love Jess. Anyway if you must have a New Year's resolution, so be it but I will miss your little word puzzles! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 07:45:53 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: What was that bliss stuff all
Message:
Does anyone know how to get high like that on our own?

Funny that you just said that, because about half an hour ago I went and saw a film by Luc Besson called Atlantis. The promo blurb was 'the oceanic odyssey which mirrors the style and experience of films like Baraka, Microcosmos and Koyaanisqatsi...' which a couple of us had chatted about in a previous thread.

Anyway it was pretty trippy and very beautiful, all underwater stuff and Eric Serra's Big Blue type music. Part of me expected to hear a Maharaji voiceover like in his Oceans/Sweet Gratitude videos where he rabbits on about stuff and which were the most enjoyable videos to watch out of my whole EV video collection - but I think that was more because of the visuals and the new-age cosmic music than what he was really saying.

Anyway, one of the things I had been into before premiedom was scuba diving and yet once I became a premie and for the entire time I was a premie I never once went diving. This actually concerned some non-premie friends of mine who wondered why I gave it up so suddenly. Somehow I had convinced myself that the experience and the high of Knowledge and devotion to M was better than occasionally sinking into the blue depths of the ocean, even though deep down not even the best experience I had praticing Knowledge equalled the feelings I have had after a good dive. When I think of it, diving for me has many parallels with what my preconception of what meditation/Knowledge should have been and it doesn't require much mental/mind effort or battle, just a bit of physical energy.

As opposed to squeezing my eyeballs, I can squeeze my nose, equalise and sink down into the blue orb and immediately into a beautiful alien world. Once down there, I can float like an astronaut, hear only the sound of my slow and controlled breathing which I'm suddenly very aware is keeping me alive, and watch and muck around with all sorts of divine critters who amaze me with their sheer beauty and innocence and by extension how incredibly georgous this world can be.

So, now I think I've come to the conclusion that if I want to experience some of those K highs, I'm just going to go for a dive.

BTW, I also want to respond with a WOW to SOT's letter. That was an amazingly frank letter and I hope the Big M or somebody receptive at EV at least read it. How can any human bean read a letter like that and not do some serious reassessment?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 10:15:03 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: What was that bliss stuff all
Message:
Hi TD, & all on this thread,
TD, I agree with you about s.o.t.'s letter. How can Maharaji read a letter like that and not be compelled to respond? s.o.t. took the time to construct a beautiful sincere letter and GM just ignored it.

TD, I was very moved by your description of scuba-ing. You really are a talented writer and storyteller. Your description made me feel as if I were there even though I've never scuba dived. Reading beautiful writing like yours, and listening to great music gives me a lot of 'bliss' these days. I can lay on my couch for hours listening to music, listening to music's structure, its repetition and variation, and listening to all of the instruments. I listen to people's voices and hear the tones, chords, emotions in their voices. I get lost in it. I get lost in singing too. When I read a great book, I am like a little kid reading with a flashlight under the covers, turning the pages til morning's light. WHen I'm in a great conversation with a friend, I also get pretty blissed out. Exercise also blisses me out--going to the gym--or especially going for a long hike in the woods or on the beach. Mike & I at one point on the forum were discussing how the 5 senses are so blissful--being out in nature and smelling everything, feeling the breeze on your face, seeing everything, hearing everything. It's so loony how the whole guru trip told us to not trust our 5 senses--that seems psychitoc to me now.
I would say that the 'bliss' I feel now is more like being 'blissed in' than being 'blissed out'. Okay, so it's not as extreme as when I was a devotee, but somehow it's more stabilizing and less prone to turn into a blood sugar headache! Seriously, I used to leave satsang and go home and stuff myself with food because I thought I'd float away. I hate that spaced out feeling now. It made me feel so vulnerable and disconnected .
Helen
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 22:44:39 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: What was that bliss stuff all
Message:
I can lay on my couch for hours listening to music, listening to music's structure, its repetition and variation, and listening to all of the instruments. I listen to people's voices and hear the tones, chords, emotions in their voices. I get lost in it. I get lost in singing too. When I read a great book, I am like a little kid reading with a flashlight under the covers, turning the pages til morning's light. WHen I'm in a great conversation with a friend, I also get pretty blissed out. Exercise also blisses me out--going to the gym--or especially going for a long hike in the woods or on the beach.

Helen with a paragraph like that, I don't think you need my writing! This was beautifully expressed and I immediately related to those other things which you say now bliss you out. What would we do without music? I would love to be able to sing beautifully, but unfortunately my voice doesn't quite cut the auditory mustard. I certainly think you and Mike have hit the nail on the head with your 5 sense bliss in program.

I remember earlier this year when I was still a premie and studying in the arvos and my routine would be to wake up and do Astanga Yogi-Bear for an hour, before sitting down and practicing K for an hour or so. After that I used to go for a walk/run for another hour. I used to run through this beautiful part of the city under all these big gum-trees with the cicadas chirping away at me - and yet even now I remember how I felt so totally removed from it all, even though I'd just been 'blissed out' with my practice of K. At the time I convinced myself that this weird feeling of unconnectedness and isolation from nature as I ran was some sort of heightened state, but now it appears that it was really just a suppression of my senses!

It seems a number of exes here have reclaimed those feelings by either being/working in nature or doing things which give them that buzz. I remember one great post that JW did where I think he said that rock-climbing gave him that same sort of high. I think he also mentioned sex as well......!!

I really think the biggest fallacy about Knowledge and Maharaji is that K and being a premie makes you more conscious. I know I was more unconscious as a premie and that most premies I know are. They feel they are blissed out, when really they are spaced out.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 19:23:48 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: What was that bliss stuff all
Message:
Remember the guy who posted recently and said that his girlfriend likes him a lot better now, that she said it seemed like there was a wall between them before (when he was a premie).
Your story about running reminded me of his post.
You became an ex-premie as recently as this year? Wow, I hadn't realized, but of course, your journey story would indicate that (on the date).

I just had a very interesting talk with a friend of mine. She and I made biscotti together and talked about this need for 'an experience', 'bliss' that seems to be a phenomena of this generation...our ancestors were so busy with the practical business of living, I think they had more realistic expectations about life. They didn't think about 'feeling connected' etc, all the time the way we do.

I went to an advent service at my church today and the minister read a prayer I really liked: 'Please God, give me the kind of CHristmas I need, we are so driven running around and overloading ourselves'. WE really have turned xmas into this totally driven project with sky-high expectations which so often result in grumpy cranky depressions...Similarly, I was so driven about God-realization back in my premie days. I am so sick of it now. I enjoy my church so much because it's so focussed on the practical everyday stuff and on reaching out and helping other people in the community. But I am so burned out on 'thinking about God with every breath' and all that kind of junk that just made it all so heavy.
...what I'm trying to say is it's such a relief not to have all the answers and NOT to be surrendering to the Lord with every breath, etc etc, it's such a relief to just be another human bean.

Helen
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 13:13:51 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Gail and Zac
Subject: What was that bliss stuff all
Message:
good question, Gail. I never felt bliss around BM, and can't remember ANYTIME other than a little buzz during satsang--but hell, I can get that much in a good conversation with a friend or reaching out to a stranger.

I did get a major bliss buzz that lasted for a day and half after hearing a speaker in Seattle last May, a guy who had a guru in India named Poonja. (he died two years ago.) Poonjaji was a 'student' of Ramana Maharshi of the Advaita tradition. Now what the heck was that all about?!?

ZAC: I had one (yes one) ok meditation experience. The percentages just weren't worth the effort for me. And the trip was way too bizarre and no fun at all. This was in 1973. I read below where you said something about this becoming a cult. I don't think you have to worry about that. People are way too independent and ornery for that.
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 06:05:25 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Knowledge doesn't work
Message:
Hi, Zac. Maybe to you Knowledge isn't fake, but to me it's nothing to rave about. It's not a passage to enlightenment, or good feelings, or anything that was promised by it. It's certainly not universal in it's effect as, say, a glass of water is to a thirsty man or food to a hungry one. There are quite a few people unimpressed with Knowledge, maybe (probably?) a lot more than were impressed. It would be interesting to know why that's the case. I know the standard, guilt inspiring explanations such as concepts and lack of surrender but I don't buy that anymore. To me, those are explanations satisfactory to only a handful of 'elite' and 'realized' souls, but never did anything to help those of us us who just couldn't get it no matter how much we practiced. What people who are raving about Knowledge are talking about, I'll never know, and I really don't care anymore. Realizing Knowledge was, for the longest time, my life's ambition, but now, since I no longer care, I only feel a great burden has been lifted from me.
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 08:05:19 (EST)
From: zac
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Knowledge doesn't work
Message:
Fair enough.
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Date: Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 01:16:14 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: SoT - Mail to MJ (Part 2)
Message:
In the light of truth, you are not a fool.- Thanks for your post.
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Date: Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 18:35:57 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Thanks SoT
Message:
Thanks Seeker:

Your letter brought back the feelings I went through when I drafted a similar one in the early 80s. It was a mixture of fear and anger, a sense of the great risk I was taking and also a conviction that I could do nothing less. I wish I still had a copy of that letter. It may turn up some day. In the mean time, thanks for the memories. I guess I did more than just 'lapse.' I gave him an opportunity to 'hit the broad side of a barn.' He didn't even take a shot.

-Scott
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 10:15:38 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: SOT's Journeys entry
Message:
I put SOT's Journey's entry online today, and also revised the main Journeys page. The Select Box is gone, and all of the links are now visible so that you can see which ones you've read.
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 10:21:08 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: SOT's Journeys entry
Message:
Thanks Brian...you are a peach. How's your coffee buzz?
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 11:07:39 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Brian/SOT
Subject: SOT's Journeys entry
Message:
Great Journey story, sot. Glad you finally wrested yourself out of that emotional roller coaster. God, it really does have an addictive quality, doesn't it? Like a dance with heroin. But, I know how compelling his trip was, it takes forever to work it out. Did you ever resolve things with your mom? Peace to you, brother, hope you are alright (it sounds like you are)
Helen
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 14:02:24 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Helen
Subject: SOT's Journeys entry
Message:
Peace to you, brother

I got the feeling that SOT is female. I've been taken apart by women before and it always sounded similar to those words. Especially the you're not the Lord part :)

Also, there seems to be a lack of Australian male ex's - and a lack of English female ones - for some reason. Must be a hemisperic/driver-side thang...
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 15:56:02 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: SOT's Journeys entry
Message:
Oops, good point. I tend to get a picture in my head of what different people on the forum look like. If I ever meet any of you I'm sure I'll be surprised. For example, in my imagination I picture you Brian as being kind of shy, tall & thin. I picture RObyn as having long dark brown hair and very fine features, etc etc. You all live in my imagination...and my pet rabbit Harvey lives there too, and Lala, the Teletubbie, and...
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 23:55:30 (EST)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Arti Lyrics
Message:
Hi,

Just checking in and found all the 'Enjoying Life' stuff -- incredible. Had to show my ex-premie husband all about it. We came across a reference to ARTI and he didn't know anything about it. Of course, in my day (1977) we sang Arti several times a day. In his day (1983) he went to Satsang at Michael Nouri's house in Santa Monica and received K shortly thereafter -- no money, no foreplay, no sex and he still kept one foot in the boat with the Buddhists. Go figure.

I've been searching for Arti lyrics for about 45 minutes now and can't find them anywhere. I know I read them on this site several months ago.

HELP!

Love,

Ex-premie Victoria

P.S. Missing Tai (sp?) and John Kramer -- anybody heard of them? Venice Beach premies circa 1983.
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 00:19:01 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: M Nouri
Message:
Hey Victoria.....
Was Michael Nouri...an actor maybe the daytimme soaps awile ago....You might ask Brian where to find the arti stuff..I remember singing arti in India about 28 years ago tonight and believe me i thought that was it..... man what a third of a century will do for you..... peace... dave
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 11:25:35 (EST)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: david m
Subject: M Nouri
Message:
Yes, Nouri was and is an actor-soaps, movies, etc. (remember Flashdance?) He was a regular singer at DLM programs, both local LA and national programs, in the 72-76 era.
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 15:43:26 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: M Nouri
Message:
Hey Paul.....
Thanks for the info thats what i thought but it was so long ago thanks again....dave
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 16:27:16 (EST)
From: Richard P
Email: None
To: All
Subject: M Nouri
Message:
Michael was recently on Regis and Kathy's morning show on morning national T.V. Michael had only praise for Maharaji and very positive things to say. Regis in fact commented that this was something he really needed.
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 20:18:40 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Richard P
Subject: Regis on knowledge
Message:
Oh God no, please don't tell me Regis is going to receive knowledge. He'll be like a hamster on crack. I noticed that Kathie Lee has one of them phoney baloney xmas specials on tonight. Gag a maggot!
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 20:34:36 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Regis on knowledge
Message:
Thanks Helen! Gag me a maggot Love it! See?? you aren't
all that conservative or you'd love Kathy oh wait, think
I got em mixed up, it's Martha you would love.
Nouri was OK in flashdance but the dancing made that movie.
I acutally liked him in 'The Hidden' I'll bet no one has even seen it? A weird campy horror flick with Kyle McGla - oh forget it -
can't spell his name. The Twin Peaks FBI guy, Agent Cooper.
Anyway, he acted in that movie. It was good B entertainment.
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 23:05:47 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Martha,
Message:
Oh Selene, don't say it's true, don't say you EVER could think I like martha stewart! I was just raving about her today as a matter of fact! I think she's set women back 40 years with her obsessive compulsive anal retentive 'advice' about how to make one's home picture perfect. AAAIIIIEEE. Double maggot gag!!! I am the anti-Martha Stewart actually.
(:
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 20:31:11 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Nouri in The Hidden
Message:
I acutally liked him in 'The Hidden' I'll bet no one has even seen it?

I saw it. I liked it too. It wasn't a great movie but it was entertaining. Nouri was good in it, better than in Flashdance.
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Date: Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 21:36:23 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Nouri in The Hidden
Message:
i dug the hidden...kyle and michael were great...and how about that plot? nasty being jumping into bodies at will: dog, wacko, slut, police chief, etc etc...thought it was a cool ending with kyle's spirit ending up in michael's body and getting to hang with his wife and daughter..i like science fiction in general...this was a good B+ movie, thumbs up over here!
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 14:07:14 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: M Nouri
Message:
Greetings, Paul -
I remember that Nouri was on a soap opera called 'Somerset'. It didn't last long before getting cancelled, as I recall. I also remember a little blurb in Divine Times (I think) telling about it, and asking people to write to the network saying how great Nouri was, etc. (Approved soap-opera watching for premies!)
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 19:47:46 (EST)
From: q
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: M Nouri
Message:
Some Nouri stuff
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 01:08:18 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Victoria
Subject: Arti Link
Message:
You absolutely have to check out JM's excellent site filled with history and background on DLM and EV. We host an onsite Index to the site locally.

But this link will take you directly to the page with the Arti Lyrics on them.
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 20:24:56 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Arti Link
Message:
Wow. those lyrics really brought me back, Brian. We were such fools for the 'Lord'.
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 22:57:26 (EST)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Arti Link - thanks
Message:
Thanks for the link and the feedback. I never sang this version of ARTI but a shorter one, without the Indian words. It's really creepy thinking back to those days and those feelings.

Bill thinks Tai and Kramer are probably still premies (but we didn't notice them 'Enjoying Life' -- oh well.

Thanks again and keep on keeping on.

Victoria
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 20:50:33 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Just how fucked IS India?
Message:
Here's yet another bemusing story about Indian devotional music. This one's from today's CNN:

'Ancient Hymn Causes Modern Political Controversy

AP
12-DEC-98

LUCKNOW, India (AP) -- Every morning, the blue-skirted, pigtailed students at Niral Nagar Senior Secondary School line up on the dusty playground to send a childishly tuneless request to Saraswati, the Hindu goddess of learning.

'Show us the way, guide us on the right path, light up our souls,' they sing in Hindi.

Teachers at the girls school say their students have been opening the day with the hymn for years, more out of respect for tradition than religious fervor.

But the hymn familiar to many Indians became a controversy this fall. The Bharatiya Janata Party, the Hindu nationalist movement that controls the state government in Uttar Pradesh, ordered that the hymn be sung every morning in all public schools.

Primary Education Minister Ravindra Kuma Shukla's announcement in late October set off an angry debate. Muslim leaders told parents to withdraw their children from public schools. The Bharatiya Janata youth wing responded by burning Muslim scholars in effigy.

Shukla, who accused political rivals of encouraging the protests, said Muslim students could remain silent while their classmates sang the Saraswati hymn.

But the order was quietly withdrawn in early December. A statement from the Education Ministry said only that it had been improperly issued.

The furor over a hymn came while many Indian public schools lack blackboards, libraries and teachers -- let alone the traditional instruments that Shukla said should accompany the Saraswati hymn.

Shortly before the order was rescinded, the head teacher at Chandganj Primary School, G.D. Singh, watched his 6- to 11-year-olds trickle into a classroom equipped with little more than the blankets they sit on. Singh said the two other teachers had been assigned to help with the municipal census, leaving him with all of the school's 125 students.

'We have received the order to recite the Saraswati hymn, but ... there's no one to teach the children the hymn,' he said. '
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Date: Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 02:00:03 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Just how fucked IS India?
Message:
I dunno if this really belongs in the preceding thread but...
who am I to complain?

Ultra-nationalism in India has only had a firm grip on power for a few years. If you remember the story of Mohandas Gandhi, he spent the end of his career struggling to keep nationalist extremism controlled. Hindu nationalism is vehemently anti-Muslim and has resulted in the recent a-bomb tests.

So while I'm off the subject, thanks for a brilliant synopsis of a probable satellite event. Why go when we have Jim's imitation?
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Date: Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 04:25:16 (EST)
From: PS
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Just how fucked IS India?
Message:
In fact, wasn't it one of the Gandhis being assasinated which sparked a change in control of the country? Like Israel, an assasination was enough to throw out some of the more peaceful trends at work in the country. Probably, the more conservative spiritual types (e.g. Satypal Maharaj) may be linked to the ultra-nationalistic right.. but there's only conjecture on my part as far as specifics.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 22:03:56 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Stripteasing one's scruples
Message:
I just had this exchange with a premie I'd emailed explaining the censorship practices on ELK. He said:

'To respond to your question, the fact that the stories that were submitted were edited in a way which removed concepts that the editor felt were not consistent with the objectives of the site is neither surprising nor disturbing. The objectives of the site, and the terms under which an individual submits material to the site are clearly articulated.

I surmise that the editor, in addition to attempt to tighten up somewhat rambling stories, was also attempting to remove concepts that would be confusing to a person attempting to understand Knowledge.

The way in which Knowledge is presented now is very clear and
straightforward. What Knowledge is, its uniqueness, and what is involved in practicing Knowledge are all very clearly explained. What you experience when you practice Knowledge, and representations about Maharaji, other than his unique role as the Master or Teacher of Knowledge are explicitly not made.

Maharaji has made it clear that what you feel when you practice Knowledge, and any feelings you have about him must be your feelings, based on your experience. While that is a big change from the way Knowledge was often presented in the seventies and early eighties, it seems to me a very positive one. Maharaji knows Knowledge works, and really does not want people to stay involved because they think they should, or others think they
should. Knowledge is not about beliefs it is about experience. I'm sure that his strong preference that if a person receives Knowledge, and having given it a fair chance, concludes that they do not like it, 'Walk', is not news to you or any other people who care.'

This was my reply:

'Your excusing the editorial policy on ELK is quite unfortunate. All you discuss is the most effective way for k to be presented. If it means lying and cheating, so be it. If that's how you think I don't imagine you'd draw any ethical distinction between the deceitful censorship ELK already undertakes and something just a touch more extravagant -- why don't THEY just make people up? If all that matters is that they produce the right
appearance which, in this case, means a roster of happy lads and lassies spouting the same, neutered bubblespeak, wouldn't it be easier for them to just concoct their own testimonials rather than have to work with pesky real people?

A fellow I know who recently left Maharaji cites a moment that finally got through to him. Maharaji was speaking to an Amtext gathering last May. He scoffed at the notion of 'principles' as being something people worried about. 'You follow your principles, you die' is what he said. The idea being that one's own morality is completely fungible and that what matters
is him.

This, Lance, is what a cult is all about. In any other setting I'm sure you'd be appalled at the censorship on ELK. They ask for life stories and yet they have absolutely no respect for the PEOPLE who submit them. These people are merely tools to be used for the cult's purpose. Too bad you can't see it. Oh well.

Personally, I think Maharaji's in for some rough sailing in the near future. It appears that he's made millions in undeclared income skimmed off Amtext and there's a lot of talk about that on the ex site right now. People are coming forward with all sorts of damaging information. I also understand that the IRS has been alerted. Think Moon, Rajneesh, Lyndon Larouche or any
number of other cult leaders brought down by their greed as expressed through tax evasion. Something to think about anyway, while you're watching those videos.'
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 22:29:24 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: The biggest lie
Message:
Knowledge is not about beliefs it is about experience.
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 00:01:55 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The biggest lie
Message:
Nigel, Jim:

If one grants that the motivation Lance expresses is valid then it would be simple to realize it w/o plageurism. Just don't publish the 'journeys' that contain elements confusing to people. That way you'de be like the Washington Times, biased but not dishonest. Everyone expects advocates to be biased. It's part of the game. Then again, simply making up the news would be a lot clearer. Pravda!

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 09:50:32 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Stripteasing one's scruples
Message:
I'm sure that his strong preference that if a person receives Knowledge, and having given it a fair chance, concludes that they do not like it, 'Walk', is not news to you or any other people who care.'

Actually, Lance, this is news, or at least M's latest strategy on how to deal with people struggling with Knowledge. He used to say if you're having trouble achieving the desired result, it's because you're caught up in concepts, or you haven't surrendered. Just give it a little more effort. He said this for the longest time. Then he would say it's because you can't accept the experience that you're not feeling it. Now, he's just throwing up his hands and telling people to 'walk', and all his faithful premies, as usual, are being his faithful parrots. Personally, I think it's the best advice he's given yet. People struggling with Knowledge, if they're smart, will do just that, the sooner the better.
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 10:24:24 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Stripteasing one's scruples
Message:
Jim: Lance's response confuses?????? In any society (paticularly cults) where freedom of thought, freedom of expression or just plain freedom are not valued, this is the logical/inevitable result. Only a mental-prisoner would ever make a statement like this and actually 'smile' about it. I hope Lance is 'enjoying' his own personal dungeon.
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 11:00:37 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Stripteasing one's scruples
Message:
Jim, I assume 'Lance' is Lance Tane from Chicago. I know you have had ongoing debates with Lance, and I remember Lance from the 70s. Actually, I knew his wife somewhat better. We used to get together for noontime satsang in downtown Chicago like good premies on our lunch hour from our jobs.

One thing about Lance is that he appeared to never make the dedication sacrifices that a lot of the rest of us did. He and his wife maybe came to satsang a couple times a month, they didn't breakup and move into ashrams, they didn't dedicate all their money to the lotus feet. They didn't trash their lives like a lot of the rest of us did to surrender to Guru Maharaj Ji. I don't know why. Maybe Lance was smarter than the rest of us and ignored a lot of what the Perfects Master, the Lord of the Universe, the Superior Power in Person, said. So, I guess I can see how Lance might think the contradictory, illogical, irresponsible changes Maharaji has made over the years, just confirmed what he believed knowledge was all along. He feels vindicated.

But his statement to you is maddening, stupid, and sounds like cult-language. Lots of passive voice, obscuring any attempt for anyone to take responsiblity for what has happened and it also is an example of compartmentalized thinking. For example:

'To respond to your question, the fact that the stories that were submitted were edited in a way which removed concepts that the editor felt were not consistent with the objectives of the site is neither surprising nor disturbing.

No, I suppose Lance wouldn't be disturbed by this. This is because the 'objectives of the site' are all PR and presenting a facade rather than the real experiences and thoughts of real people. Lance obviously accepts those objectives so he is not disturbed (about this).

I surmise that the editor, in addition to attempt to tighten up somewhat rambling stories, was also attempting to remove concepts that would be confusing to a person attempting to understand Knowledge.

Yes, Lance, the truth can be confusing so just ignore it; just repress it. It's much easier to present the current cult-party line. This is just to play a part in the deceitful aspirant process and to refrain from, in any way, implying that Maharaji is anything less than perfect, without actually saying that he is perfect, either. To Lance and the editors, 'to understand knowledge' means to get only one side of the story of what people experience with knowledge and definitely exclude any open discussion. This is the essence of a cult. Hey, Lance, do you think enjoyinglife will EVER figure out a way to get that 'conversations' part of the site up and running? They seem to be having a hard time with that.

What you experience when you practice Knowledge, and representations about Maharaji, other than his unique role as the Master or Teacher of Knowledge are explicitly not made.

This is bullshit, absolute bullshit. Maharaji describes over and over, to the point of nausea, the 'beautiful' experience knowledge is, how wonderful it is, that is makes you fulfilled and content. These are the experiences one who practices knowledge is supposed to have. To Maharaji, Lance, and the editors, any suggestion that someone experiences something else, or who believes something else from their own experience practicing knowledge, is just censored, deleted, ignored. [Lance, also, how do you 'expicitly' NOT do something? Just curious.

Knowledge is not about beliefs it is about experience.

As Nigel has already stated, this is the biggest lie Maharaji propogates. Lance is being a good premie by parrotting it back.

I'm sure that his strong preference that if a person receives Knowledge, and having given it a fair chance, concludes that they do not like it, 'Walk', is not news to you or any other people who care.'

Yes, Lance, isn't Maharaji a great 'master?' Isn't he a great spiritual guide? He just says,:' if you don't like it, get the fuck out!' Besides being the opposite of what he used to say repeatedly, it's also pretty callous for the divine 'master' to just give up on his devotees, the vast majority of which HAVE 'walked.' But maybe Maharaji has also learned by experience that knowledge turned out to be not what he thought it was. It really ISN'T for everyone, in fact, it's only FOR a few people. The rest of the people he cons into receiving knowledge, and from whom he might pick up some cash to finance lifestyle, are just casualties along the way. Thanks for clearing that up, Lance, it's something I've wondered about.
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 16:53:05 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: Jim +shp
Subject: M's 'principles' quote
Message:
It was not an Amtext meeting, but at an event with M in Montreal on May 8,98 where M spoke the following;
'You want to hold on to your principles? Do you want to know know what's going to happen? I'll tell you what's going to happen.Your ship's going to sink !!! You want to hold on to your principles?? I'll tell you what's going to happen.YOU'RE GOING TO DIE!!!
You know guys... he always was such a cutie!!
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 00:04:55 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: Nimrod
Subject: M's 'principles' quote
Message:
You know what's going to happen if you *don't* hold onto your principles? YOU'RE ALSO GOING TO DIE!!!

Seriously, what the heck was that all about?
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 13:33:59 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Nimrod
Subject: M's 'principles' quote
Message:
hi nimrod,

i don't want to beat a dead horse, but can you give me any more information about that talk? i would really like to see how the rest of the context reads regarding 'principles'.

i cling to my belief in the almighty, but am inbetween the worlds
regarding maharaji. i have read much that troubles me on this site to the point that i cannot in good consicence invite anyone to one of his programs...so please if you can, direct me to or supply me with the information about his 'principles' talk. it will mean alot to me. thanks.
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Date: Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 18:46:44 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: M's 'principles' quote
Message:
Hi there shp,most dear, wise and gentle one!
Here is a review of M's talk in Montreal to premies and aspirants in May of 98,or at least the key points in the order that I remember him speaking them.
#1: First M began by speaking of the importance of flexibility and adaptability in one's life.As an example, he offered the following little anecdote;in preparing for his trip from Miami to Montreal, M was very much looking forward to shooting some video footage of certain scenery in and around Montreal which he had in the past found very pretty.But alas these plans were scuttled when someone forgot to pack the camera.But did our beloved Goomster freak out? -NO WAY-as he told us, when he was told that someone had forgotten to pack the camera, he simply accepted it and went on to' do something else'(what that something else was he did not say, but then again who am I to ask? )
#2:After so brilliatly driving home the point for us re the value of flexibility and adaptability in one's life ,M then proceeded to his second key point,the ol' reliable 'strainer' stuff... you know... that in this life we should all try to be like a strainer, taking in only that which is good, and leaving behind that which is bad.He gave us this story as an example.While he was down in Miami ( for the three day event that preceded the Montreal event) he noticed that while the sun was out and it was definitely shining,everything seemed kind of 'foggy' to him.Now at first, he could not understand how this could be, but he told us that he had just read an article or seen something on the news that explained the whole thing for him.At that time, there were these massive fires in Mexico and the smoke had reached as far as Florida, and so as he put it ' It was smokey, but you could still see the sun shining' This then was what he exhorted us all to do'Even when its smokey all around you, you can still see the sun shining.Look for it.'
#3:M then proceded to explain the reason why most of us are unable to see the sun shining in the midst of all that smoke-'principles' get in the way.As he put it : ' It's amazing how brute we can be in holding on to our principles.'He then went on with the ' You want to hold on to your principles?....you're going to die! ' quote which I've already related to you guys in the previous post.
#4:Finally as the way out of all this, he implored us all to 'Seek the company of truth 'He spoke these words almost in a pleading tone and it seems to me even now that what he really meant by this was as follows;'I know that you guys really can't stand each other, but cripes, where else do you think you're going to get the 'support' you need to continue on this path of k, if not from each other.
And so dear shp, there may have been a few more words of babble spoken by the Goomster, but these are the highlites as I recall them.Have fun with it!
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Date: Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 21:28:58 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Nimrod
Subject: M's 'principles' quote
Message:
hi nimrod,

i just wanted some info on the 'principles' thing...i really appreciate all the typing you did on my behalf, but what i was really interested in was the thing he allegedly said about abandoning principles or 'dying'...i hadn't heard that from the stage, and thought it was said in some sort of private meeting. the way it was initially presented here was discordant with my feelings about principles and their importance.

i went to the satellite feed today. i listened like i never listened before, having spent a bit of time with you guys and gals
here on this site. it was definitely different. i am still processing the feelings i am having, not because he said anything new, which he admittedly never does, but because of the people on this site who have shared their experiences, both positive and negative, about the whole trip. i am in a very transitional state right now, not shaky, just transitional.

one thing is for sure...i don't feel the same way about maharaji now as i did before i tuned in here. i need to understand why so many folks got dissed (disprespected) and then igged (ignored) when they tried to communicate with him and get clarification.
i am not in denial about the possibility that something is fishy or was fishy and the smell from the past fishiness lingers...i am proceeding with caution and trying to assimilate all the new information...after 20 years of unabaited enthusiasm, i need time to sort some things out. thank you for your coridality. it makes it easier to deal. catch ya later.
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Date: Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 22:14:13 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: M's 'principles' quote
Message:
Take it one step at a time, I'm sure you'll figure it out, shp.
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 17:20:43 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Nimrod/Saul
Subject: M's 'principles' quote
Message:
Seriously is this part of some scare tactic about going to hell or something if you hold onto principals/values rather than hold onto GM & KNOWLEDGE?? If so, this is clearly part of the crazy-making/caught between a rock and a hard place programming 'mindfucking'. Sounds like a miserable existance to me--surrendering to GM out of fear of what happens after you die, for crying out loud. Is this fundamentalism or did he mean something else.. Does anyone have a clue about this??
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 19:01:06 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Helen
Subject: He's improvising
Message:
Hi Helen,

Is this fundamentalism or did he mean something else.. Does anyone have a clue about this??

For anyone trying to unpick or deconstruct meanings from Perfect Master Bates' wit 'n' wisdom, I think the only only conclusion you can draw is that he makes it up as he goes along. His collected words are too full of non-sequitors and contradictions to add up to anything.

But the basic method is ancient holy master yogic lila stuff: say the thing that most unsettles the folk gathered around you and see whether they can accommodate what you just said (like Krishna and Arjuna, re. slaughtering your nearest and dearest) and still be your devotee. It's a mind-fucked loyalty test, in my opinion.

Generally speaking, though, I don't think the stupid wanker much cares what he says, since he could say the opposite thing next week, or ten years down the line, and people will still rustle round buy him a $50,000 dollar car for a two day visit to Australia.
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 20:58:40 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: He's improvising
Message:
'mind-fucked loyalty test'--good one, Nigel. You're right , man. Why am I trying to ascribe logic to this fellow?. See I keep thinking if I can understand him, maybe I won't think he's so evil. But I still maintain that he's an evil guy. What is that 'mind-fucked loyalty test' if not evil? WHo else but an evil person does that? If not evil, then I'd have to say that at the least, he is CRUEL. His path is downright cruel.
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Date: Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 15:14:27 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Understanding M?
Message:
Hi Helen -
You wrote:
See I keep thinking if I can understand him, maybe I won't think he's so evil. But I still maintain that he's an evil guy. What is that 'mind-fucked loyalty test' if not evil? WHo else but an evil person does that? If not evil, then I'd have to say that at the least, he is CRUEL. His path is downright cruel.

I'm always trying to understand Maharaji, too. I think saying someone is evil is too simplistic. I read Peck's book, BTW, and I had mixed feelings about it. I have never known someone who is that narcissistic/sociopathic who didn't have good reasons for being so. My father was kind of like that, and his mother was definitely like that - horrible child abuse/abandonment in both cases. However, I used to give people all kind of slack because of their pasts, and I don't any more - I think people have to take responsibility for where they're at, no matter what happened to them in the past.

My five cent analysis of Maharaji (remember Lucy in 'Peanuts'?) is that he's a VERY angry person, who never really got to be a kid, and thus never grew up. I think he believes that he has sacrificed his life for the premies, and thus the premies owe him big time. For example, he probably has a lot of personal money, but looks to the premies to pay for everything he wants or needs - they OWE it to him. I also think that there's an element of insatiability in him - he never seems to have enough material things to make him happy - he always needs MORE.

RT told a story about how premies from all over were asked to do unpaid service on designing and building Maharaji's new residence in Malibu (I think this happened in the mid-nineties). A lot of people came to do this, and I think he provided maybe some trailers and sheds for them to sleep in. No food, and one really lousy computer, which didn't work right (can you imagine how many computers he has in his residence?). He had all these people - some of them very skilled - there, willing to work for free, and if he had provided better equipment and accomodations (which would have cost him little), he could have got a lot more done on his residence in less time. His behavior didn't make sense to me at all - except in light of the idea that he wants the premies to provide everything for him. (BTW, for anyone who didn't read the story, M was over at the building site ALL the time, so he knew what was going on.)

I also think that he believes that what he is doing is right, and he does believe in himself as the master, at least when he's 'on stage'. I think that's why he's able to sell knowledge, and himself, to people. I don't think he could maintain such charisma otherwise. However, people who have posted on this site who have seen him 'off stage' (the man behind the mask) say that there is no special aura around him when he's not being adored by the premies.

Anyway, that's my nickel's worth, for what it's worth :).
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 19:06:24 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Understanding M?
Message:
Thanks Katie, I always want to hear what you have to say on a topic. I have to think about what you've written and mull it over a bit, & I'll post ya on it later.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 22:59:22 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Is GM evil?
Message:
I've just read the thread about b'day gifts for GM and read Gail's suggestions about a penis extender. He's not evil or cruel, he just has a small penis and has been compensating for his inadequacy ever since.

Seriously, now, I have to summarize all the stuff I've learned here on the forum, the 'fruits' of GM's 'reign' : AMtext, the plane project, suicides, the ashrams, etc. Is he evil?, sociopathic?, narcissistic?, all of the above?.

I choose.....D. all of the above.

Can I be an inititator now?

What I think is evil is that he has never acknowledged the hurtful things he's done, he's never repented for what he's done. He could still redeem himself. I think that the word evil has a lot of negative connotations for people so maybe, like JW said, it's not the most useful word for making a point. Like JW said, it's more helpful for people to just describe what they know about GM, so other folks can decide for themselves. But my opinion on this remains firm: Until GM apologizes and steps down from his throne, & sincerely tries to make amends for his deeds of the past decades, he's evil, IMO.

Hellion, the opinionated
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 15:24:33 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Lost posts on enjoyinglife.org
Message:
As a public service to the Internet community, I have restored the posts which the editors at enjoyinglife.org somehow deleted from their site. I felt it only fair that BOTH versions of the missing 'life stories' be available to read - the submitted ones, and the doctored ones - so I have re-printed Nigel's forum posts as pages on the site.

The new pages about ELK (The Character of Their Content) are now online. (Guard your keyboards from drinks - there's a special graphic.)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 16:44:35 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: It just keeps gettin' better!
Message:
Brian: It's superb!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 17:15:10 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Lost posts on enjoyinglife.org
Message:
Really well done, Brian. And yes, I almost lost a little Greek salad with that picture of whatshisname from 'Nancy', right?

The only trick now is to have that page show up in the search engines when people look for ELK.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 17:20:53 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: art appreciation
Message:
that little illustration was r. crumb's version of maharaji from the 1970's nr. natural cartoon...it's on a link around here somewhere.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 18:54:19 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: all
Subject: hey, who's the ringer...nigel
Message:
This so-call Steve Ayre, in the ''Lives'' section has got my antannae up. Now, come on, Nigel, nobody talks like this:

It's all about what Maharaji says - which I knew all the time but just didn't have the presence of mind - or should I say absence of mind - to let myself feel fully.

I practice. I participate. And the progress I am experiencing is this: I feel this love in my heart just about constantly nowadays - if I choose to. Simply lovely, and constant. I have this choice - such a choice; to go through the doorhe has opened.

I know what gratitude is, and I express it to him as often as is appropriate, which is really often. I listen to cassettes a lot and attend as many video events as I can with others of like mind.

The depth and the integrity and the reality of all this fascinates me, beguiles me.

Beguiled. That's a good word for it. This Steve Aryehead knows what he's doing. He's hitting all the buzz words. If it ain't Nigel, then some NLP'er is just making this crap up. Look at all the embedded commands and hypnotic suggestions, especially, that if one perseveres, one eventually ''gets it.''. This is cult indoctrination at its most subtle and finest. Cut it out, Nigel!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 21:11:29 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: hey, who's the ringer...nigel
Message:
You're wrong Gerry.
Its Jim playing his nice side again.
You know how he gets just before he is ready to pounce.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 21:32:43 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: CD
Subject: hey, who's the ringer... CD
Message:
Hi CD,

Thanks for deleting my posts from your forum. You show up here at regular intervals, chip in with your tuppenceworth then scarper whenever challenged to discuss anything (NB: 'reply' does not equal 'discuss').

I bet you used to ring doorbells and run away.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 22:02:07 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: hey, who, what was good
Message:
Discuss what?
The Amtext initiative.
The New Yorker article.
M in jail in Nigeria.
Stupid people.
Poor premies.
Rich premies.
Jims lost years as an ashram angel and resurrection as a lawyer.
My interesting life.
Davids piece of cheese.
Gails dilemma.
Did M really do it.
The broadcast this Sunday.
The way it used to be.
What ever happened to ...
World peace.
Personal peace.
Peace.
Love.
Nigels clever Internet antics.

Yes, I know you are proud of your work.
A clever fellow. We all are.

We are racing towards another great year!

CD
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 22:14:31 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: CD
Subject: Answer me one question
Message:
You've given us a list of debating topics, which you'll never debate, yet it's clear you spend more time reading this forum than you do your own (which takes about five minutes, once a week). Answer me one thing, though, in whole sentences rather than haiku:

What, in your opinion are Maharaji's faults?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 22:55:06 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: everyone -cd's full name
Subject: cd's full name
Message:
i have been cruising around the threads tonight feeling freer inside and ran across cd's posts....
never met the guy, but it sounds like the full name is cd-ROM:
cd-Read Only Maharaji.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 09:35:47 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Good one, shp (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 22:15:47 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Chris's quandry
Message:
As he does, from time to time, Chris has just demonstrated that he doesn't believe in discussion. Quite frankly, I think he's consciously modelling a better way for us. A way of feigning to be brain dead but only to the extent necessary to avoid unpleasant truths and problems.

Chris' dilemna, though, is that he can't help but follow these same discussions he thinks shouldn't occur in the first place. Now that MUST be frustrating. My condolences, Chris.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 22:10:45 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Nigel, you have no idea!
Message:
I bet you used to ring doorbells and run away.

Nigel, you don't know how close you are here. Last year right around now Chris called moe one night. I had barely said 'hi' before I got another call. I asked him to hold for a sec or give me his number and I'd call him back. His answer? 'No, I just wanted to say 'hi'. I said I'd call you sometime and now I have. Maybe I'll call you again someday.'

'But Chris,' I argued, 'this doesn't make any sense. Why just call only to say 'bye'? Let's talk a bit.'

'No, not now. 'Bye.'

Now you tell me... what IS that?? Anyone? Chris? Anyone?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 21:14:26 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Lost posts on enjoyinglife.org
Message:
Great job...you've been a busy boy. Love the graphic!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 21:42:10 (EST)
From: Willi Kranz
Email: gothman@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Brian
Subject: Lost posts on enjoyinglife.org
Message:
Danke, Herr Brian. You give me resurrection as Lazarus from the dark tomb. This is Grace of the Guru Maharaj Ji. He will make you some miracles I know this. My joy is swelling and my tears is welling. Hey, but this is a cool lyric: 'My joy is swelling / My tears is welling / But where is my baby tonight?' That's a tender intro. Now Noriko plucks a stonky riff like Smoke on the Water and we make do with the hot licks and heavy riffing. Perhaps a drum solo is desirous. Then 'Gonna love you woman, all night long...' and then a little screaming 'waaaaahhhhhaaaaa yeah yeah... woo woo...' and a bluesy phrasing like 'come do that thing once more if you please baby for me' like the Zeppelin. What is your reckoning, my premies? I did not have to think the text. It happens in my heart by inspiration, like Ron's song. Today my second best groupie is gracious to sell to me Lemmy's leather pants he is wearing for 'Silver Machine' in 1972. She was not really of selling them so desirous but I give her twenty thousand Deutchmarks and a broken down motorbike. That must be Grace too, as there is only one pair of such hosen in the world. I don't think she would lie about this. Do you remember Hawkwind, also? They were in Glastonbury with the Guru. What comes around goes round and round like an LP and the change of seasoning, isn't it? Gerlinde say's now it's final. Phewee for that! Hello Robyn. I am faithful yet.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 22:05:35 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Willi Kranz
Subject: thanks, Willi... ...i guess...
Message:
You're possibly an inspiration to... uh... premies everywhere who are trying to overcome the cult-speech limitations... ...and struggling to control their wandering minds... I can't believe that they actually deleted your post over there... they might be the only ones who actually understood it...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 00:00:04 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: thanks, Willi... ...i guess...
Message:
You actually read willi's posts? I can understand once, but everytime this guy comes on, he sounds like a legend in his own mind. That's it. Too many beers- I'm going to bed.
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 21:22:43 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: kidding a kidder?
Message:
dv,

You're not serious, are you? I mean about taking Wili seriously. Don't you know?
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 22:23:08 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: kidding a kidder?
Message:
Sometimes I skim a lot. I don't even know what he said! The style just got boring. I reacted. Like I said, too many beers.
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Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 23:05:18 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: kidding a kidder?
Message:
dv,

'Wili' is Nigel's brilliant completely racist English attack on Germany all over again. No it's not. It's his residual fake premie character, too good to retire after the ELK hoax. It's Spinal Tap and 'Soul Rush' run together. Yes, it's thick but it's worth it. Try again, I bet you'll agree.

Jim
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 14:26:10 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Willi Kranz
Subject: Lost posts on enjoyinglife.org
Message:
My Dearest Darling Willi,
I am so happy Grelinde is releasing you and that you are ready to embrase me! :) I will go with you to rock shows and be your loving groupie! I love how the music just comes to you Willi. You are an inspiration! And you like Led Zepplin, I couldn't be happier. You will be my rockin bluesy man, eh?
How will we get money to fund a tour? Maybe we should inlist some ex's here who are use to giving money away and now have no one to give it to! You will be a rock and roll god!
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 23:11:27 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Brian
Subject: Could be time
Message:
to change the logo.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 23:36:02 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Could be time
Message:
Whoa! That was so cool! I am tripping now!
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 00:28:59 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Could be time
Message:
Hey Nigel....
Pretty good stuff...How do you think up all this stuff...good humor....cheers....peace ...dave
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 14:28:59 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: david m
Subject: Could be time
Message:
Dear David,
Isn't he priceless and he knows Willi personally, I think!
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 01:14:01 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: nigel
Subject: Could be time
Message:
Nigel, you are dangerously funny! I already stole your gif. I'll see what I can do with it :)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Sat, Dec 12, 1998 at 06:43:59 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Lost posts on enjoyinglife.org
Message:
Great page Brian! You set it out and introduced it really well!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 15:22:45 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: on friendship
Message:
i just read some very beautiful words on human relationships that i want to share. it seems that maharaji puts a cynical spin on marriage, friendship and human interaction in general in his talks. this is more of how i feel about it:

from sri yukteswar through yogananda-

'friends of other lives easily recognize one another in the astral world. rejoicing at the immortality of friendship, they realize the indestructibility of love, often doubted at the time of the sad, delusive partings of earthly life'

from yogananda - where there is light-

'friendship is the purest form of god's love because it is born of the heart's free choice and is not imposed upon us by familial instinct. ideal friends never part; nothing can sever their fraternal relationship.

the treasure of friendship is the richest posssession, because it goes with you beyond this life. all the true friends you have made you will meet again the the home of the father, for real love is never lost.

when perfect friendship exists either between two hearts or within a group of hearts in a spiritual relationship, such friendship perfects each individual.'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 16:01:13 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Rita
Message:
shp:

Interesting you should bring up friendship. I had a friend from my premie days that I lost track of in the 70s. Thanks to the Internet I recently found her and we talked briefly on the phone. Apparently she spent a lot of time in India with Mata Ji after we parted. She returned to the US to continue her education and for a while kept receiving invitations from Mata Ji to return, which she rebuffed in favor of completing her education. She now teaches literature in college, and not only is she doing alright, but 'escaped' in 1978. She feels that in many ways the stint with the mission was the most fun part of her life, but is glad she got out when she did (and has no inclination to return).

Yes Mike, it was the notorious Rita. Was there some sort of episode with a ladder that I don't recall?? She seemed to think she and you used a ladder for something, and were scolded by Charanand. Might she have been thinking of someone else?

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 16:10:55 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Rita
Message:
Scott: Unless my mind is totally gone, I think she may be confusing me for someone else. I would bet money, knowing her, that she was trying to enter the 'upper suite' on the balcony of the palisades residence.... he he he. Hey, if you talk with her again, tell her I said HI! Us bongos got to stick together or we'll fall apart... he he he. If you recall, he used to refer to us as 'bananas.' Man, can you imagine insulting a perfectly good fruit this way?

BTW, how'd you know that I was reading this.... ;-)

shp: BTW, no matter the source of the quotes you just used, they echo my sentiments about friendship. Best stuff in the world, in my humble opinion! My wife's been my best friend for 13 years (just went over 10 years married this week) and I have to admit they've been the very best years of my life; all because of her friendship!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 20:35:45 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: That's beautiful, man
Message:
Gosh, MIke, me bladder's in my eye (ever hear that Irish expression?) reading your thoughts about your wife. She must be some woman to be married to you (I mean that, brother). COngrats on getting past the 10 year mark together
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 20:44:11 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Helen, katie, saul, etc
Subject: just wanted you to know...
Message:
down below in an old thread that's going archival soon is a post i'd like to call your attention to entitled 'you're gonna love this one' from me to jim in the conviction management thread.
i am all stuffed up in the nose and watery eyes right now from allergies, change in the weather, and i am sure i am beginning a big ol' cleansing about now too, from all the shit i am letting go of in my head and heart. you have been patient and kind to me and
i am grateful for that....talk to yas later....
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 21:02:21 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: shp
Subject: hang in there...
Message:
and come back soon, OK?
Nigel
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 21:06:19 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: shp read...
Message:
my post to you in that same thread...I gave you some serious medicine brother!! (: Hope you're feeling better!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 21:31:44 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: just wanted you to know...
Message:
that you will feel better soon, even though you think you won't. I left a few months ago, and I feel a lot better now. These are the stages I have been going through:

a) initial denial - Why are these ex-premies saying this stuff?

b) sickening feeling - I realized that the exs were verbalizing the doubts I had thought about but had not shared with others.

c) realizing the exs were just like me - The exs knew the trip and had been just as devoted, if not more so to MJ, K and the cause in general. Some of them had completely given over their lives and got to witness MJs nasty side, his smoking, alcoholism, womanizing and greed.

d) realizing that K and MJ did not work in my life and never had - I used the cult as an excuse not to live my life and take full responsibility. It was my way of not growing up. The whole thing had been based on concepts that I decided to believe in.

e) realizing that I was in bad shape and not enjoying my life dispite lying to myself repeatedly. I had become Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde.

f) realizing that I thought I knew the BIG DIVINE SECRET and felt inherently superior to others who did not have MJ's GIFT. After all, I knew the LORD OF THE UNIVERSE.

g) realizing that I had become addicted to the cult behaviours and activities

h) most important of all, THIS SITE HELPED ME TO REALIZE THAT MY LIFE BELONGS TO ME AND I NO LONGER HAD TO WASTE ANOTHER MOMENT OR DIME ON THIS PATH OF ILLUSION

i) I am a free human being again (well, sort of--I still have to pay taxes).

g) realizing that I wasted a lot of my life which isn't coming back
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 00:09:32 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: just wanted you to know...
Message:
Always love your posts!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 22:26:12 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: a fractured tale
Message:
shp:

I clipped a copy of your post to send to Rita, along with my Christmas card. It's tempting to be upbeat just for the sake of saying or doing something, but don't think you need it. It reminds me of that old cartoon 'Fractured Fairy Tales,' where the beautiful prince suddenly opens his mouth and says: 'Ribbitt...'

-Scott
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 09:51:17 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: To shp
Message:
shp: Although we all have different methods of communicating (I think it's called, 'individuality'), I think you will find that there isn't a person here that could care more for other people. Hang in there and, if you are pissed/happy/confused/whatever about this whole thing, just SAY so. The stages that Gail referred to below are almost universal in their scope (e.g. we've been there or ARE there currently). In other words, you've got friends here (the REAL kind) that will be here for you; not because you are a good, dues paying premie or because we want something from you, but because we honestly give-a-damn about each other (IMHO).
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 13:32:59 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: shp
Subject: To shp
Message:
I want you to know that I am available to talk while you go through all the things that happen while one is breaking free. Please e-mail me at the address above when you are angry/perplexed/exhilarated/confused/spiritually tired, etc. And if you don't want to talk with me, that's cool too!
God bless you.
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 14:18:58 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: To mickey the fair-I-see
Message:
hey mickey,

thanks for the kind words
right now i have been going through a pretty heavy physical
cleansing...as above, so below....and i am just trying to rest
and gather my strength and let this frontal pounding headaches subside...catch ya later.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 14:54:44 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: To mickey the fair-I-see
Message:
To mickey the fair-I-see

Your play on words cracks me up, shp. Thanks for the chuckle.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 17:34:06 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Rita
Message:
Hi Scott,
I'm so glad you hooked up with Rita again. Did you ask her how she make it out of the desert after she got off the bus?
eb
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 17:46:40 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Rita
Message:
eb:

Did you ask her how she make it out of the desert after she got off the bus?

She just hitched. Couldn't tolerate Bob's brother-in-law any longer.

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 18:03:18 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Do I know you?
Message:
eb: Were you, by chance, Rita's cohort while camped in front of the palisades residence? If so, you know me....
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 06:14:53 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Do I know you?
Message:
Hi Mike,
I wasn't in front of the Palisades residence, but I was on the Badnesh bus coming home from Hans Jayanti '75. After 3 days in Florida and no end in site, my San Diego friends and I got a drive-away car and made it back a month before the bus did. When Scott first posted here I was convinced he was the blonde on top of the bus with whom I... well, that's another story.
Love your posts!
eb
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 20:30:28 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Rita
Message:
Scott, I'm glad you found Rita. I remember reading about her in your journey story
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 19:13:45 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: ajw
Subject: ajw, i read your journey...
Message:
and i can definitely relate to alot of it, especially the experience with the woman, the baby and the 'security'.
a few years ago, as my wife and i were waiting to enter a hall at c.w. post college in new york to see maharaji, my wife really had to go to the bathroom baaaaad. it was early in the day, perhaps 9 or 10 am and the program wasn't until the after noon. we were literally among the very first people there. i banged on the door and finally a 'security' person came to the door and said my wife could not come in. i cursed him a blue streak after pleading for a minute or two, knowing that i would get written up in the bongo book (again). so we had to locate a custodian (on a saturday morning on a college campus) and hike a few hundred yards to the nearest building that wasn't cordoned off for 'security'. i am almost 50, my wife is 45, we had 2 kids natural, i helped deliver,
we homeschooled one kid 4 years and the other 5. what an insult to not even be able to relieve oneself in an empty building in the name of 'security'. i've been around 20 years and everyone knows me on site and knows i'm harmless. well, now i'm harmless and free! god bless you. maybe we can dialog more at another time...
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 02:15:12 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: good work, shp!
Message:
shp,
I just read your post below. I really think its great that you've stuck around here long enough to see the light.
My parents are both long term premies, and I just wish they were as willing as you are to examine m's world at least semi objectively. Unfortunately they dont appear as if they can ever get out of their trap.
I've been around here since last spring, and I've witnessed the deprogramming,so to speak, of a few well intentioned, misguided people who were tricked by a shrewd conman named Rawatt who pretends he is god to people who need that fantasy.
You've come a long way quick, shp, congratulations!
By the way I liked your fish entering the ocean story.

Best regards, x
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 00:21:58 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Guess who's birthday's today?
Message:
How about some poetry,songs, etc. from you wonderfully creative people out there? I'd contribute, but my dull, uncreative mind can't come up with anything at the moment. I'll think about it today at work-yawn...
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 04:25:56 (EST)
From: Big M
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: It's mine! It's mine!
Message:
Happy Birthday to Me!
Happy Birthday to Me!
Happy Birthday to the Lord of the Universe and the current Perfect Masterrrrrrrrr
Happy Birthday to Me!

Oh goody! Today I'm going to get lots of presents from my followers. I hope they don't disappoint!

For those of you who forgot, it's not too late. Too make it easier for you, my Swiss Bank Account is #453604542.

I can't wait for the cake. Yummy.

Oops. I forgot. Is Long Beach going ahead or do I just have the satellite broadcast? I hate forgetting what I've planned. Damn cognac - messes with my brain, so it does...
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 10:45:31 (EST)
From: The Big Guy, again
Email: None
To: Ya'all
Subject: I forgot
Message:
I forgot to give you my wish-list:

This year I'm not asking for anything that my faithful slaves....er, uh.... followers can't supply. This year I really NEED:

1) My very own Space Shuttle, so that I can propagate on the space station and aim the Hubble telescope at my gaping maw, for all to see and admire.

2) Remember, my shuttle requires gold plumbing fixtures so that I don't catch any of those nasty germs or get any reactive metal flakes on my holy lotus toes.

3) Food-in-a-tube suxs, so don't try to skimp on the REAL VEGAN food, you naughty premies.

4) Don't forget that the solid rocket boosters need extra-extra-extra o-rings, so that they can withstand the pressures involved in lifting solid gold into near-earth orbits.

That's all for now, but rest assured that I will throw a temper tantrum somewhere down the road when this project is messed up by you awful, self-centered premies.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 11:03:28 (EST)
From: Gooomradji
Email: None
To: Premies
Subject: Birthday Presents
Message:
As all you premies know, I am a lotus and live in, but not of, the world. All that is important to me is experiencing 'that place' that MY Guru Maharaj Ji showed me. It's all I care about and all I really want for my birthday. Now, I know, some premies really want to give me gifts, and because I am so loving and sacrifice my life and comfort for the premies and this knowledge, I will be magnanimous and accept the following gifts (or anything else, really, as long as you include the receipt and one of my servents can return it for CASH):

1. Any new luxury car, or antique car or cars with a value in excess of $150,000;

2. Gold plumbing and kitchen fixtures to go on my new $2,000,000-$4,000,000 yacht I just got.

3. A big, palacial 'residence' on the French Riviera, a Greek island, or perhaps Maui. Of course, I will need a private landing strip and/or helicopter pad at any such 'residence' and you all know how I feel about gold plumbing fixtures and retractable windows (Hint).

4. Any new, advanced plane. I LOVE planes, planes planes!!! I prefer private jets, in the $30,000,000 range.

Out of my magnificent love and caring, I might consider throwing myself a birthday party which the premies will be allowed to attend, for a cost of about $50 each, for which the premies might receive some rolled up cheese on toothpicks and some crummy birthday cake.

Blessings to all the premies!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 11:16:50 (EST)
From: Perfect Master
Email: None
To: All Followers
Subject: Birthday Presents
Message:
Forget all of the gifts for now!!!!!
Iwould like to offer something to you,PEACE ON EARTH.
Just listen to me and follow my commandmentsand all things in your life will become so beautifull..please remember it is easier for a camel to pass thru an eye of a needle than a rich man passing thru the gates of the kingdom of heven.So if you give me your love and devotionall bad things on this earth will pass I DECLARE I WILL ESTABLISH PEACE ON THIS EARTH....BANG....
Oops i just woke up from a 28 year old dream....so go ahead and send me the cash im getting a little low. not many new followeres these days.....SANT JI MAHARAJ JI.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 11:22:12 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Perfect Master
Subject: Bang?
Message:
PM: What was the 'bang?' Are you one of those silly folks that thinks you can clean a loaded firearm? Let me tell ya, it ain't possible. The cleaning rod gets stuck in the barrel when there's a bullet in it. he he he.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 11:48:52 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Bang?
Message:
Hey Mike.....
I think it was the peace bomb exploding....but ill think about your thread above....mmmmmmmmm...later dave
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 16:05:27 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Perfect Master
Subject: Remember the Aston Martin?
Message:
Remember the year that Marolyn got all of us to send money to buy him an Aston Martin (spelling??-Jeez, at that time I didn't know what they were even talking about). Remember him talking about tearing his cars pieces to see how they were put together. He decided that Mercedes was the best one on the market at that time.

I used to mention to other premies that we weren't doing very well in comparison to people of 'the world.' How come everyone else gets more of everything than the premies do, I would lament. After all, we are following God's wishes. We have the Lord of the Universe looking out for us.

Someone would invariable reply that it didn't necessarily work that way. One poor premie got back from Australia last year to find that her phone was disconnected. She ended up declaring bankruptsy. It didn't stop her from attending Atlantic City and Chicago though.

Meanwhile ... what should we get the LARD OF THE UNIVERSE for his birthday this year. Perhaps a PENIS EXTENDER would be in order.
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Date: Sun, Dec 13, 1998 at 22:38:03 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: HAHAHAHAHA!!
Message:
A penis extender- HA!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 23:23:09 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Gooomradji
Subject: I've got 30,000,000 for yah!
Message:
Goom:

I just don't have $30,000,000 so I've been trying to figure out if I have 30,000,000 of anything I could give you. I've got it! I have about 30,000,000 dust mites in my bed. I plan to kill them off pretty soon, so I'll send you their corpses and droppings. Hey, don't say I never gave you nothin'!

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 13:00:22 (EST)
From: The Big Guy, once more
Email: None
To: Ya'all
Subject: Another simple request
Message:
Dear Premies: In addition to my space shuttle, I need something else. You all know how expensive these satellite feeds are going to be, so I want to fix it immediately. Disappear? No, I'm not going to disappear... I have a better idea...

BUY me a satellite! In fact, buy me a satellite launching system for Arianne transport rockets and install it on my palacial homeland in Malibu. This will permit me to saturate space with MY OWN PERSONAL SATELLITE TRANSMISSION SYSTEM. You'll be able to watch me on 110-channels, 24 hours per day, every day of the week. For the low, low price of $110 per day! That's only $1 per channel per day.... what more could you ask for?

WOW, I'm getting high just thinking about the possibilities.... I think I'll dance, right now!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 23:31:38 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: The Big Guy, once more
Subject: Another simple request
Message:
Actually, you want PPV: Pay Per View. Then, ultimatley, VOD: Video on Demand!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 11:12:25 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Big M
Subject: It's mine! It's mine!
Message:
BM: Happy birthday to my PAL, Prem! You friggin' yutz!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 14:12:16 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: who's birthday?
Message:
it's my sister-in-law's birthday. she's a sweetie.
also, i feel like it's mine in a way.....
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 14:21:11 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: In that case
Message:
shp: I DO wish your sister-in-law a Happy Birthday (for real). ;-)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 14:24:05 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: mike, check older posts...
Message:
...and get back to me.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 14:39:03 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: mike, check older posts...
Message:
I did... Happy Birthday, shp!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 16:00:16 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: the fishes
Message:
Dear shp -
The parable of the fishes was wonderful - succinct and well expressed. I think in pictures and I had the same experience when I finally 'got' it (although not the same vision). It was intuitive, and instantaneous, but so powerful that I can't forget it.

I saw myself walking in a cave, or a mine shaft underground. It was really dark, but I could still see a little. The cave kept getting narrower and narrower and smaller and smaller, and I was hunching over and trying to squeeze myself in. I could then see a point where the passageway just ended, and I got really claustrophobic. All of a sudden I stood up, and I broke through the surface of the ground into an open, grassy field. The sun was shining, and I felt such relief - it was incredible. I felt FREE for the first time in years.

This was just the beginning, and I won't say it was easy after that (in fact, I was quite scared and disoriented for a while), but this vision, and the support of my friends, really sustained me through it all.

Take care of yourself (and best wishes),
Love,
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 16:27:41 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Guess who's birthday's today?
Message:
It's Cesar Franck's birthday today. There aren't any musicians around here or anything, are there?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 10, 1998 at 16:42:29 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: cesar franck
Message:
french organist composer and teacher, how you zay:

a-pee beerz-day sayzar, bon chance!
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Date: Fri, Dec 11, 1998 at 00:22:08 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Guess who's birthday's today?
Message:
Swiss account #'s! Penis gadjets(is this from personal experience?)! I Love it! What was I expecting- Lewis Carol? ' Don't give yourself airs, be off! or I'll kick you downstairs!'
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