Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 34 | |
From: Dec 30, 1998 |
To: Jan 12, 1999 |
Page: 2 Of: 5 |
SHP -:- I went to the archives... -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 04:31:16 (EST) __Sir David -:- I went to the archives... -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 05:12:18 (EST) ____eb -:- I went to the archives... -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 07:03:26 (EST) ______chr -:- I went to the archives... -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 07:52:45 (EST) ________eb -:- to chr-It wasn't me (OT) -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 12:58:13 (EST) __________Selene -:- me too -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 15:05:58 (EST) ____Jean-Michel -:- I went to horrors -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 09:09:20 (EST) __Runamok -:- I went to the archives... -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 06:59:28 (EST) ____Sue -:- I went to the archives... -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 07:16:28 (EST) ____shp -:- blindness as sight.... -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 10:16:43 (EST) __Jim -:- This is pathetic, shp -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 08:19:40 (EST) __Jerry -:- I went to the archives... -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 09:47:12 (EST) ____shp -:- I went to the archives... -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 10:22:06 (EST) ______Gail -:- Dear Shippy -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 11:44:40 (EST) ________shp -:- Dear gail -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 13:50:48 (EST) ________VP -:- Gail hits crux of matter -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 15:02:50 (EST) ____VP -:- I couldn't have said it... -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 10:54:03 (EST) ______shp -:- I couldn't have said it... -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 13:52:31 (EST) __Brian -:- Maharaji's tearless eyes -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 09:52:56 (EST) ____gerry -:- More sheep dip -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 11:17:10 (EST) ______x -:- Roast of Mutton -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 13:07:41 (EST) ________shp -:- Roast of Mutton side of mint -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 14:00:21 (EST) ________Brian -:- Roast of Mutton -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 21:51:30 (EST) __________Sister Mary Elephant -:- Roast of Mutton -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 11:50:47 (EST) __________dv -:- Bravo- well said.(nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 16:20:15 (EST) ______shp -:- not more sheep dip -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 13:56:21 (EST) ______Zac -:- More sheep dip -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 23:02:20 (EST) ________shp -:- don't read this -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 01:11:03 (EST) ____shp -:- reply to Brian -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 13:49:00 (EST) ______VP -:- reply to Brian -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 14:41:41 (EST) ________shp -:- reply to VP -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 16:26:52 (EST) __________VP -:- reply to shp -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 17:02:55 (EST) ____________VP -:- what sets people off -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 17:25:10 (EST) ______Mike -:- light, light and more.... -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 15:24:56 (EST) ________Selene -:- light, light and more.... -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 16:40:25 (EST) ______Brian -:- Prayers -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 21:28:30 (EST) ________bill -:- Prayers -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 23:44:56 (EST) __________Brian -:- Not exactly -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 09:29:49 (EST) ____________Bobby -:- prayer -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 09:56:25 (EST) ____________gerry -:- Not exactly -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 11:06:30 (EST) ______________Mike -:- Miracles.... -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 12:59:17 (EST) __Scott T. -:- suicide -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 12:59:13 (EST) ____shp -:- suicide -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 14:08:11 (EST) ______Scott T. -:- suicide -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 14:50:11 (EST) ________shp -:- suicide -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 16:30:10 (EST) __________Scott T. -:- suicide -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 00:06:07 (EST) ________shp -:- suicide -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 01:26:26 (EST) __Runamok -:- I went down to the archives... -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 14:15:20 (EST) ____shp -:- I went down to the archives... -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 14:32:22 (EST) ______Runamok -:- 3:00 on the Playground -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 15:59:34 (EST) ________shp -:- 3:00 on the Playground -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 16:42:36 (EST) __________chr -:- 3:00 on the Playground -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 17:51:40 (EST) __________Runamok -:- 3:00 on the Playground -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 18:27:17 (EST) ____________shp -:- 3:00 on the Playground -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 18:34:28 (EST) ______________Runamok -:- 3:00 on the Playground -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 00:05:32 (EST) ________________shp -:- 3:00 on the Playground -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 01:31:03 (EST) ______________op -:- suicide and more suicide -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 01:10:56 (EST) ________________Jim -:- suicide and more suicide -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 01:53:43 (EST) __________________Sir David -:- suicide and more suicide -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 03:29:02 (EST) ________________The Red Knight -:- suicide and more suicide -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 08:16:17 (EST) ________________VP -:- op vs. Maharaji -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 10:09:31 (EST) ________________Katie -:- suicide and more suicide -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 11:26:42 (EST) __________________Mike -:- If I may disagree slightly... -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 11:55:18 (EST) ____________________Katie -:- We're on the same page -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 12:36:24 (EST) ______________________Mike -:- We're on the same page -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 15:28:51 (EST) ________________________shp -:- point of order/information -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 16:06:47 (EST) __________________________Mike -:- Why did you take this -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 18:22:44 (EST) ____________________________shp -:- my dog just died -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 18:52:01 (EST) ______________________________shp -:- reply to mike -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 22:36:21 (EST) ________________________Helen -:- We're on the same page -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 17:24:26 (EST) ________________________shp -:- not-holier-than-thou -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 17:38:54 (EST) ______________________dv -:- Suicide fad -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 16:46:23 (EST) ________________________chr -:- Suicide fad -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 17:42:48 (EST) __________________Gail -:- Dear OP: -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 12:18:04 (EST) ____________________The Unknown Therapist -:- Wanna feel good ? -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 13:20:48 (EST) ______________________Helen -:- Wanna feel good ? -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 17:30:42 (EST) ________________________Mike -:- Wasn't me....(nt) -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 16:49:39 (EST) ____________________dv -:- Dear OP: -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 00:36:19 (EST) ______________Runamok -:- Goes Around/Comes Around (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 01:38:59 (EST) eb -:- A Sad Observation -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 19:10:55 (EST) __We're all Jerry Springer -:- material when the right -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 19:21:26 (EST) __John -:- A Sad Observation -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 23:12:18 (EST) ____Helen -:- A Sad Observation -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 23:30:59 (EST) ______Robyn -:- A Sad Observation -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 08:53:11 (EST) ________Helen -:- A Sad Observation -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 13:18:09 (EST) __________Robyn -:- A Sad Observation -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 17:56:00 (EST) ____________Helen -:- My email -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 21:55:15 (EST) ____Robyn -:- A Sad Observation -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 08:43:59 (EST) ______John -:- Thank you my dear! -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 13:59:23 (EST) ________Robyn -:- Thank you my dear! -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 14:34:59 (EST) ________Selene -:- Destroying the asshole within -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 14:52:25 (EST) __shp -:- I'd rather have... -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 02:16:13 (EST) __chr -:- A Sad Observation -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 03:06:12 (EST) ____eb -:- A Funny Coincidence -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 06:34:49 (EST) ______Robyn -:- A Funny Coincidence -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 08:50:01 (EST) __Saul -:- Don't be sad, eb, -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 12:45:00 (EST) ____eb -:- Great idea, Saul!!! -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 13:11:49 (EST) ______Saul -:- Great idea, Saul!!! -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 12:41:10 (EST) __Selene -:- A Sad Observation -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 14:41:38 (EST) Jim -:- The numbers suck, m' lord -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 14:00:31 (EST) __chr -:- The numbers suck, m' lord -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 17:07:37 (EST) __Nimrod -:- The numbers suck, m' lord -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 17:10:29 (EST) __Nimrod -:- The numbers suck, m' lord -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 17:10:28 (EST) __JW -:- The numbers suck, m' lord -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 17:41:36 (EST) ____Nimrod -:- no way 8k for LB'96 -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 18:08:06 (EST) ____barney -:- Spread This Knowledge -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 18:34:36 (EST) ______Gail -:- HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 19:03:24 (EST) ______dv -:- Spread This Knowledge -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 20:55:14 (EST) __Jean-Michel -:- The numbers suck, m' lord -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 04:06:42 (EST) ____al -:- The numbers suck, m' lord -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 20:06:39 (EST) ______dv -:- The numbers suck, m' lord -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 22:11:25 (EST) ________barney -:- accessible technology -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 23:33:10 (EST) Way -:- escaping another guru -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 13:49:33 (EST) __RT -:- escaping another guru -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 15:01:47 (EST) __Runamok -:- escaping another guru -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 06:47:31 (EST) Gail -:- I want my donations back!! -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 12:37:43 (EST) __Jean-Michel -:- Me too ! -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 13:00:56 (EST) ____RT -:- gopher it. -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 13:07:27 (EST) __John -:- Go girl! -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 13:53:34 (EST) ____Mr. Clarity -:- Go girl! -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 14:09:50 (EST) ______x -:- Go girl! -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 14:29:58 (EST) ______Ego Buster -:- Hate to tell ya bro, but -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 16:18:45 (EST) ________Mr. Clarity -:- Hate to tell ya bro, but -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 11:02:18 (EST) __________Repentant -:- Ouch -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 13:12:46 (EST) __chr -:- I want my donations back!! -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 17:16:34 (EST) ____satan -:- I want my donations back!! -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 17:31:17 (EST) ______Judas -:- I wanna SELL OUT to GMJ -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 19:33:35 (EST) ________VP -:- I wanna SELL OUT to GMJ -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 11:05:45 (EST) ______Anon -:- I want my donations back!! -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 19:53:46 (EST) __Joy -:- I want my donations back!! -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 20:23:37 (EST) ____John Hammond-Smyth -:- I want my donations back!! -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 22:29:30 (EST) __Passing thru -:- Present for Gail -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 23:02:05 (EST) ____JW -:- Present for Gail -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 02:18:30 (EST) ______Passing thru -:- Evidence please JW.. -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 06:38:52 (EST) ________pass the buck -:- Evidence please JW.. -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 07:04:32 (EST) __________Jean-Michel -:- I've been part of it -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 09:15:42 (EST) ____________Passing thru -:- I believe J-M -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 22:38:48 (EST) ______________Jim -:- This is kind of fun -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 23:25:27 (EST) ______________J-M -:- I believe J-M -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 03:37:54 (EST) __________Passing thru -:- Real evidence please JW.. -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 22:30:42 (EST) ____________Gail -:- Ya, but what about guilt? -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 23:26:34 (EST) ____________thats not how the IRS -:- views it and you know it -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 22:58:14 (EST) ____________JW -:- Real evidence please JW.. -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 18:51:48 (EST) ________Mike -:- Evidence please PT -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 10:52:04 (EST) __________Passing thru -:- After you Mike... -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 22:49:06 (EST) ____________Mike -:- After you Mike... -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 10:27:07 (EST) ____Jethro -:- Present for Gail -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 03:01:32 (EST) ____Gail -:- Not in Canada -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 07:08:46 (EST) ______Gail -:- How did MJ get so rich? -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 07:15:04 (EST) ________Passing thru -:- How did PT get so rich? -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 23:13:45 (EST) __________Jim -:- Question time, PT -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 23:33:56 (EST) __________JW -:- Simple PT -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 18:58:36 (EST) ______Passing thru -:- All over the world Gail.. -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 22:59:18 (EST) ________Jim -:- Hate to be a bore -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 23:38:21 (EST) ________Gail -:- Where have all the monthly -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 23:45:48 (EST) ____Jim -:- PT's like J. Hammond-Smyth -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 08:31:51 (EST) ____Mike -:- And the tooth fairy -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 10:49:14 (EST) ____Jean-Michel -:- What EV is really about -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 11:16:46 (EST) ______Passing thru -:- What J-M is really about -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 23:19:20 (EST) ________Gail -:- PT: YOU ARE CRAZY! -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 00:02:23 (EST) __________x -:- PT: YOU ARE CRAZY! -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 03:34:56 (EST) __________op -:- PT: YOU ARE CRAZY! -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 14:31:56 (EST) ____________Mike -:- A question for you then... -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 14:51:46 (EST) ____________barney -:- hard-fact numbers - funny $$$ -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 15:32:38 (EST) ____________Gail -:- PT: YOU ARE CRAZY! -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 20:40:14 (EST) ____________Jean-Michel -:- op: YOU LIAR -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 04:18:51 (EST) ____________Sir David -:- What a lovely lovely mission -:- Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 04:47:03 (EST) ________J-M -:- What J-M is really about -:- Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 03:34:33 (EST) |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 04:31:16 (EST)
From: SHP Email: None To: Everyone Subject: I went to the archives... Message: it's 3:30 am and i have something to share before i rest. I went to the archives to read the thread on premie suicides. I was deeply touched. I had a friend when I was just a kid in high school who did himself in, and nobody knew why. He seemed to have everything going for him, but obviously not. It was a sad and mysterious chapter in my mid-teenage years and I never forgot Joe. He was older than me, he drove a BMW and I didn't even have a license yet, he was cool with the ladies and I was a few years younger and just getting started, he'd get jobs like delivering phone books and he'd call me like his little brother and include me in his work and play. He had it all, looks, a neat and gentle personality, money, car, nice family, the works. And then one day I came home from school and my mom told me he was gone. Took a hose to the exhaust of that BMW and ran it into the cabin and rolled up the windows one afternoon out by a lake we used to drive past. I never had a feeling like that before or since, but I am having it now as I write. As I read the archives, my eyes welled up. I was both observer and participant as I scrolled down the posts. The observer in me came forward with references from the krishna scriptures that says the true devotee laments neither for the living nor the dead, another from st. paul that says to laugh with those in joy and cry with those who mourn, and a beatle verse from 'in my life (i loved you more)'. then the very objective bean-counter in me reminds me about the law of large numbers and percentages of this-and-that happening in large groups of people. the participant in me was much less philosophical or objective. i began to think, yes think, about what went down. back then, maharaji entrusted the revealing of knowledge to his instructors. he trained them on how to do it and who to let have it, etc. then at programs, as i vividly recall, he never spoke highly of his own representatives or gave them any respect at programs. he ridiculed them, belittled them, made fun of them and gave us no reason to respect them except for their association to him. and yet he allowed them to wield the sword of knowledge in our lives, and he trusted them to know how. i chalked it up to his ego-busting the instructors so they would not get big heads. but after he would crack on them, i don't remember him saying something like, 'seriously premies, these are my beloved instructors in whom i have entrusted this precious gift of knowledge to reveal to you.' even at friar's roasts after the roastee has been thoroughly reamed, the speakers, one by one, would close with a few sincere words of respect and affection. i don't remember that at programs, just the ridicule. now i am reading about all these suicides. i feel that pt was not being very straight (truthful) or compassionate in his posts on this thread. as a matter of fact, i felt him to be rather hard-hearted and cold. i also feel that those who did commit suicide believed something within themselves that told them it was the only way out, or else they'd still be here....and that something within those people that told them they had to die, i cannot attribute to maharaji, as distasteful as that may sound to some of you. it is probable based on information posted, that the conditions with the instructors, or in the ashrams or the communities or the relationships in which these tragedies occurred aggravated these sensitive souls who became convinced there was no other way. and i mourn your friends as i mourned my friend Joe. may they all ascend to a better place, a happier life, and truly find what it is they sought here on earth. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 05:12:18 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: None To: SHP Subject: I went to the archives... Message: I was on the premie bus from London to Rome and we stopped somewhere in France and had to cross the very busy main highway to the cafe on the other side. The traffic was doing over 70 mph and I had to think twice as I crossed the road because being British I was used to looking to the right for oncoming traffic first and then left. But this was France and I remembered just in time to look LEFT first as I crossed the road. I crossed the road safely to the other side. Suddenly there was an almighty BANG behind me and I turned and saw a premie flying up into the air as a speeding car had hit him. This British premie had forgotten to look left first and had walked straight into the path of a car doing about 90 mph. The premie was dying by the side of the road and as I watched the horror of all this I was amazed at the detatchment of all the premies around me. Eventually we all got back on the bus again to continue the journey to Rome (minus the dead premie) and then people started to share satsang to everyone from the front of the bus. I was even more bewildered by this complete lack of concern for the dead premie. The whole thing was glossed over as part of Maharaji's lila etc and I did not feel good about this at all. I wonder if anyone remembers this incident which happened around 1980. I often wish I had turned to the premies getting off the bus and reminded them that the traffic was going the opposite way to how it goes in England. I remember some premie announcing this fact but it seems not everyone heard the warning. A sad loss and such a waste of life for such a small, momentary mistake. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 07:03:26 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: Sir David Subject: I went to the archives... Message: Dear Sir, You brought up a very interesting point: as a premie, my normal human responses were repressed. I remember learning of the deaths of two of my former lovers while I was a premie. One was a bass player in a band in Milwaukee who died in a car crash, and I didn't hear of his death until a few years after it happened. I saw the drummer in Safeway and asked him how Richard was doing, and he looked totally shocked and told me Richard was dead. I asked him how it happened and after he told me, I went on with the conversation as though we'd been talking about gardening. I remember the drummer watching me with amazement at my detachment. It wasn't until I was in therapy that I started to feel the grief from so many years earlier. Another lover overdosed on heroin and alcohol and was found by her daughter. When my co-worker informed me of this, I remarked with spiritual knowingness, 'Well, I hope she has it better in her next life.' When I was finally able to feel my feelings which had been built up over the years of dissociation, it was way too hard to handle taken altogether. Major depression and panic and suicidal tendencies. I had some episodes while I was a premie where I wanted to kill myself, but I talked myself out of it by rationalizing that if I would just practice SS&M, maybe leave the hubby and kids and move into the ashram, devote myself better, then I wouldn't feel so bad. It was my fault if Knowledge wasn't working for me. I wasn't surrendered enough. Eventually my ability to dissociate would kick in and I'd be off in lala land thinking I was blissed out and everything was perfectly fine--by his grace, of course. Glad to be here, Love, eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 07:52:45 (EST)
From: chr Email: None To: eb Subject: I went to the archives... Message: I think the insensitivity we managed to show in some of these type of situations was very sad.I knew premies who were dying of cancer and I and others just werent there when they needed us.One friend experienced a particularly painful time leading up to his death and I was detached to the point of being inhuman. By the way, eb,I cant quite work out your post about the truck.Was it really you ? M had only come that day to Kissimee and he was checking it all out at 1 in the morning. He told her it was a pretty big truck she was driving and to take it easy.She was a pretty wild lady and fun to be around. chr Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 12:58:13 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: chr Subject: to chr-It wasn't me (OT) Message: and the reason I can say this with certainty is that I couldn't drive yet in 1978. A premie named Richard Merrill taught me to drive in 1979. The experience I had with M in Kissimee that time was when I was planning to leave early because I was 'in my mind' and had decided it was all a crock. As I was carrying my 2-year old daughter and a backpack leaving the tent area, M was driving around in a jeep, I believe. He drove by me twice, and then, after a brother stopped and gave me a ride in a truck, M drove by again very slowly and stared at me. I decided that it was a sign that he wanted me to stay for the festival (and the brother driving confirmed this for me). I stayed and had a great time because I spent the days with my daughter in child care. Didn't listen to much satsang. And I think someone gave me a plane ticket home when it was over. Sorry, chr, I may be a wild woman, but I'm not that wild woman. eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 15:05:58 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: eb Subject: me too Message: I didn't listen to him either! I stayed in a tent with my best friend at the time, and her boyfriend. We would send him out at night for chocolate chip cookes and coffee. We would stay up on caffiene and sugar highs and giggle and piss off the premies trying to meditate. Then sleep late. I missed most of the bigM's berating and I couldn't have cared less. My sons were with their father in New York and I just played. You know, I was always like that. Never really cared about the M. But I did have strong light experiences twice and it was NOT from pressing hard or much at all on eyeballs. Andit wasn't drugs. I still wonder abut that light and the feeling that accompaied it. And this was before I had received the great gift of K hee hee Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 09:09:20 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Sir David Subject: I went to horrors Message: This is an horrible story which reminds me of that other one, back in India 1972, on the way from Delhi to Premnagar. One of the busses, loaded with premies run over an Indian guy on the road, and didn't stop .... I know premies are still talking about it. Speaking about ethics? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 06:59:28 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: SHP Subject: I went to the archives... Message: I can blame M. Ship, sounds like you have so many different people in you that the law of large numbers you refer to may cause one of them to off itself. I can blame him.. He's the same guy who doesn't respond to desperate correspondences from dying and suicidal premies who have spent their whole lives trying to serve him. The guy who can promise you anything and give you nothing if he feels like it. Peace on earth? Land where we all could live? A lifetime in the ashram? It was different for all of us, that's true. If the lord of the universe/peace on earth stuff doesn't spell hippocrate to you, nothing ever will. At least you could tactfully not argue your blindness as sight, even if you come to a less critical analysis of your self than I can grant you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 07:16:28 (EST)
From: Sue Email: None To: Runamok Subject: I went to the archives... Message: Here is one different one, a premie in LA was killing herself by not eating right and her mom wrote to the lord of the universe telling him she was going to sue his pants off because he had totally controlled her daughter and told her how to eat and no one else could talk to her. rawat met with the girl and told her to eat lots of food. If you had forged a letter from your mom threatening lawsuits you could have finally gotten to meet your lord/ultimate ruler. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 10:16:43 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Runamok Subject: blindness as sight.... Message: runamok, if i thought i could see all things clearly do you think i'd be dialogging with you and others here? if i thought i could see clearly would i have lost a night's sleep in trying to put my feelings into words for what i knew would be a highly critical audience? i don't recall having said that i can see something you can't. but you have said that you can see something that i can't. that made me want to check out what you all had to say, not as a spy, but as an individual human being. i do have a blind side about maharaji now, due in great part to this website. and i am learning how to see through my blindness little by little. now that i am aware of so much more information, i am now responsible for it. it's heavy, as you already know. and to be quite honest, i don't know what to make of all of this yet. maybe i'm in some kind of shock, i don't have all the facts and information, but contrary to your belief, i am one person, not many. and if i did myself in over this screaming paradox going on in my life right now, you'd feel bad for me too and blame him. so while i am alive, while we all are alive, let us give each other the essence of what we are communicating, and save all the namecalling and insults and one-upmanship and word games. maybe other premies play that, but i don't. or maybe the chasm is just too wide to cross for premies and ex-premies to relate. we can banter, converse, be poetic, humorous, sincere, indignant, share common experiences,etc. but when the chips are down, and they are, there's no common ground for us to meet. i don't seek your approval or anyone's on this site, and i don't seek approval from maharaji either. what i seek is the clarity to see what is right before my eyes, shimmering, now looking one way, now looking the opposite. what i seek is the direction and approval from my own heart, my own conscience, my own insides, to the core. for if there is a god, then that is where he is for me. and that is who i have to live with every day, every moment. if you don't have the patience or nerve to deal with me, i understand. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 08:19:40 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: SHP Subject: This is pathetic, shp Message: As I read the archives, my eyes welled up. I was both observer and participant as I scrolled down the posts. The observer in me came forward with references from the krishna scriptures that says the true devotee laments neither for the living nor the dead, another from st. paul that says to laugh with those in joy and cry with those who mourn, and a beatle verse from 'in my life (i loved you more)'. then the very objective bean-counter in me reminds me about the law of large numbers and percentages of this-and-that happening in large groups of people. the participant in me was much less philosophical or objective. (emphasis supplied). What a fool you are! 'Philosophical'? Try 'idiotic'? You've got about as much grasp on philosophy -- even the crazy religious kind that you're so fond of -- as if you'd just found a deck of Hindu trading cards and were trying to scrutinize the blurbs they had on all your favorite gods, demigods, devotees and movie stars. that something within those people that told them they had to die, i cannot attribute to maharaji 'Cannot' or 'will not'? Your 'objectivity' is a bigger joke here than PT's 'sincerity'. I can't believe that you function with a brain like this, shp. No, I think you're in the final stretch for first-degree Keithdom. And I don't give a flying fuck if you don't know who I'm talking about. Go back to the archives. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 09:47:12 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: SHP Subject: I went to the archives... Message: Sandy, You must remember that premies who committed suicide did so while in the service of the 'lord'. They were in the midst of a very heavy and mind-crunching relationship with the 'perfect master of the age'. VP's friend only wanted some words of encouragement from his master. Jim's friend thought he could never make the grade as a servant of the one 'greater than God'. Maybe these people were crazy to believe in M to this extent to begin with (I think we all were), but Maharji encouraged this kind of thinking. Remember arti? Maharaji wanted to be looked upon as the world's savior. He wanted us to believe that he was the source of our lives. Remember? 'Who is Guru Maharaji, what is the source of your life'? Heavy shit. This kind of trip, very likely, did push some people over the edge. Maharaji was no ordinary Joe Blow in these people's lives. To them, he was their lord and master, and they committed suicide while in his service. How could this be? If Maharaji was everything he claimed to be, why were his devotees taking their lives? Only the most cold-hearted of us would suggest it was because they failed as premies. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 10:22:06 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Jerry Subject: I went to the archives... Message: jerry, i would never say they failed as premies. your post struck me deeply for their truth and for the compassion and patience with which you wrote them to me. more food for thought...thank you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 11:44:40 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: shp Subject: Dear Shippy Message: It is painful to come to the understanding that you've been wasting a good deal of your thought patterns for the last 21 years (1978-1999). It is painful to realize that you are an emotionally retarded person who has not really taken proper responsibility for yourself. From what I've read in your posts, you are questioning everything except MJ. Take your blinders off regarding him. He has done you no good. Little voices have been cautioning you from the start. Those voices are getting a lot louder; pay attention to them. Once you recognize that your beloved Guru Maharaj Ji is not the Lord of the Universe, the whole trip falls away. You may feel euphoric at first; I did. Then, reality really sets in. Currently, I vascillate between raging fury, sadness and hysteria. These conditions are better than living a lie. There is a price to pay for handing the reins of our lives over to MJ. The mindlessness, detachment and superiority we bought into was expenseive. We are hurt and we have hurt others. Remember when he said, 'You have been putting the pieces of your life together blindly. When you finally open your eyes, do you think you will like your life?' Well, Sandy, do you? Don't be his slave. :>() Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 13:50:48 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Gail Subject: Dear gail Message: point taken. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 15:02:50 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Gail Subject: Gail hits crux of matter Message: Gail you hit on something good there. It is hard to live your own life. You have to take responsibility for everything. Emotionally it may be easier to surrender to Maharaji--not easier really, just lazier--than to deal with reality. Do you think some premies like to be where they are rather than face the truth and have to deal with hard core issues like REAL LIFE, being their own person, being responsible for their own happiness or unhappiness, etc? Do you think that is why they won't accept facts that are impossible to refute? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 10:54:03 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jerry Subject: I couldn't have said it... Message: any better than that, Jerry. Excellent post and I agree with every bit of what you said. If Maharaji was all he is cracked up to be, he could make a phone call. There are plenty of pastors (not even Lords) who show up at the hospitals when people are sick. Even ones with thousands of people in their churches/communities. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 13:52:31 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: VP Subject: I couldn't have said it... Message: point taken. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 09:52:56 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: SHP Subject: Maharaji's tearless eyes Message: As I read the archives, my eyes welled up. This is a common experience here. People open up to their own feelings and the tears flow. We've all gone through it, and we all repressed it while we were lost in devotion to Maharaji. You have this to say about PT, based on your own tears: i felt him to be rather hard-hearted and cold. And this to say about Maharaji, based on the tears of others: that something within those people that told them they had to die, i cannot attribute to maharaji Your detachment is evident in that you also say this about Maharaji's behavior toward real living, loving human beings: ...a few sincere words of respect and affection. i don't remember that at programs, just the ridicule. The only people who can be excused for a callous lack of human emotions are the sociopaths who lack the ability to feel beyond the limits of their central nervous systems. Why does Maharaji have absolution from you for his responsibility (or lack thereof) for what resulted in the lives of those who loved and trusted him? You would pass this off as 'objectivity'?? You sound like a loyal loving mother at the execution of a mass-murderer - 'He was always such a good boy. Even his cat loved him as he was setting it on fire.'. If it was YOUR cult, would you cry for the dead? You offer this possible excuse: it is probable, based on information posted, that the conditions with the instructors, or in the ashrams or the communities or the relationships in which these tragedies occurred aggravated these sensitive souls who became convinced there was no other way. and i mourn your friends as i mourned my friend Joe. Let's talk about that, shp. Why did your friend kill himself? Was it because his father was sexually molesting him? Would you blame his poor obsessive father then? Did you ask around, or try to find out the true facts involved when there were no archives to go to and no posts to testify to what happened? Or do you prefer to withdraw into 'probabilities' that are safe and point the finger only at Joe? He just couldn't take it, shp. Try not to blame those who dished it out beyond his emotional limitations. He was weak, they were ignorant? You can cry for those you care about. Who does Maharaji cry for? Himself? Others? Anyone? Does he even cry, shp? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 11:17:10 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: shp Subject: More sheep dip Message: i also feel that those who did commit suicide believed something within themselves that told them it was the only way out, or else they'd still be here....and that something within those people that told them they had to die, i cannot attribute to maharaji, as distasteful as that may sound to some of you. Dear Sheep, Your shit still stinks. Once again I swear off ''shp posts.'' Call it a new years resolution. Baaahhhhh Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 13:07:41 (EST)
From: x Email: None To: shp Subject: Roast of Mutton Message: You really stepped in it this time shp. You are the one who brought up the subject of roasts though, now aren't you? The question is will everyone line up at the end to give you a sincere toast of reverence and respect. I hope so. Jim really nailed it when he compared you to a mountain climber, stuck in the middle of a climb, testing and re-testing the next hold, afraid to commit your weight to it, retreating back to your precarious little perch. Vicious circle. I propose that you're only a couple of feet off the ground. You could easily just hop right back down into MJ's little valley of ignorance and denial. Or, you can do the work and join us here at the summit, join the party, see the beautiful view. I know you hate this analogy, shp, but it kinda fits, don't it? See, its just like when you became a premie, but the opposite. Instead of getting rid of your mind, you get rid of MJ's influence over your mind. It's up to you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 14:00:21 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: x Subject: Roast of Mutton side of mint Message: point taken. the slings and arrows don't bother me, and you can break your neck falling three feet or 3000 feet. slow and steady wins the race. so i'm a sissy climber, eh? you think i'm going to react to your peer pressure any more than premies peer pressure? see ya when i see ya. thanks for the post anyway. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 21:51:30 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: x Subject: Roast of Mutton Message: I propose that you're only a couple of feet off the ground. You could easily just hop right back down into MJ's little valley of ignorance and denial. Or, you can do the work and join us here at the summit, join the party, see the beautiful view. I'm assuming that I'm one of the people that you envision as standing on the summit and enjoying the view. I don't always enjoy the view in life, however. Personally, I'd rather that Maharaji or SOMEONE was actually responsible for the landscape. It would be nice to live in a Utopian world. Perhaps I'm only a couple of feet and a couple of inches off the ground. I dunno. But SHP's climb is his own. He's here, posting his thoughts to complete strangers who can choose to be supportive of his efforts or not. They can grade and critique his 'work' progress, based on their own expectations. I have to wonder what would make these critics happy? Perhaps, 'You're right, I was wrong'. If there is a correct dogma to insert into the void that was occupied by believing that the Lord was here and everything would work out, then I'd like to be let in on it. When fantasy-based optimism vanishes, we get to choose whether to replace it with realism or with cynicism, both towards ourselves and towards others. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 11:50:47 (EST)
From: Sister Mary Elephant Email: None To: Brian Subject: Roast of Mutton Message: If there is a correct dogma to insert into the void that was occupied by believing that the Lord was here and everything would work out, then I'd like to be let in on it. Good news, dear Brian! The Holy Mother Church will always have a place for a stalwart fellow like you! And you get the security of knowing, this time, you've chosen the right side! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 16:20:15 (EST)
From: dv Email: None To: Brian Subject: Bravo- well said.(nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 13:56:21 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: gerry Subject: not more sheep dip Message: gerry, things move fast on the internet. please read reply to brian. or don't. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 23:02:20 (EST)
From: Zac Email: None To: shp Subject: More sheep dip Message: Gerry's right sheep, so's Jim, Some of us read this page for entertainment and you are driving me crazy. I feel like running out to buy soap opera magazine to see if sheep is really going to ex-out this week, 'Tune in to find out.' Or are we in for another monotonous season of blither, blather. Jesus, Just do it man! I am swearing off all sheep posts until I see some action! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 01:11:03 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Zac Subject: don't read this Message: can i shine your shoes for you too? anything else you want me to do when you clap your hands? who made you the judge of who is right or wrong...'gerry's right, so's jim'...sez you. this is not a popularity contest either, or a wit contest. forget me for a minute. what do you do to relax? what kind of music do you like? what kind of climate do you live in? if two exers can ask each other questions like that, i can ask you right? so tell me a little about yourself. you are right, this isn't just about me. never thought it was. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 13:49:00 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Brian Subject: reply to Brian Message: brian, first of all, things are starting to accelerate for me on the inside. if i say something on a post and then on the next post alter or recant, it is not because i am crazy or a hypocrite or a 'typical' premie. it is because i have had a realization either from within myself or in my life, or something that someone said here made me think twice. this medium is fast and therefore speeds up all the processes it touches including this one. i am not too proud to change or admit error once it hits me that doing so will bring me closer to living in truth. the way you described and emphasized some of the people who committed suicide as having dedicated their lives and being in his service and not getting the feedback from him they were begging for has reminded me of some experiences i had as a monk....the very real feeling that the lord of all creation was either very pissed off at me or ignoring me altogether. very dark and scary, as i recall. who else can you turn to if the lord ain't listening, i know the feeling. i never thought about killing myself, but it did get very weird and scary on the inside, like an x-file that even the x-file folks would cringe at. when i gave notice that i was leaving the order, the white-robed master teachers took me, the brown robed brother, into a room i had never been in before, with a big picture of jesus hanging on the wall in front of me that depicted him really pissed. this picture was like no other picture of him i have ever seen. but i left anyway, not jesus, but the order. On the inside i told myself and god that i was leaving the order of a past perfect master to go and be with the living one, for that is what i believed i was doing. while in the order, i was sent to carbondale, illinois to live, work and recruit for the order. while there, i met some premies. this was the mid-70's. they were glowing, literally. they had just come back in a carload from kansas city or denver and had received knowledge. with all my robes, books, pipes, collars, symbols and esoteric information, i felt that they had something i didn't have and wanted and was willing to change the course of my life to acquire. but i wasn't ready to jump in a car and go right away, as was the custom in those days. something held me back. i used to go to the premie house and hang out, wash dishes, listen to satsang instead of do what i had been sent there to do. but i did not feel that i was being disloyal to jesus, only the order. i was going to satasang regularly instead of looking for monestary recruits, and it felt good. one day, i was alone in the little yellow premie cottage (they told me i was always welcome and their door was always unlocked). i was doing the dishes or something and i had the tv on in the other room, just to listen and glance at as i went about. the merv griffin show came on and maharaji was the guest. i was transfixed in front of the tv with a wet cup and a dishtowel in my hand as i watched and listened. then it was over, another soundbite in the akasha. i remember letting a pure prayer with no frills on it fly from my heart: 'if this guy is YOU, god, then i really need a sign over here right away. here i am in a robe and a cross dedicating my life to jesus through this order, and along comes maharaji and knocks all my nice neat checkers off the board. hey, i made the jump from being jewish to recognizing jesus as being an integral part of the neverending story, and that was a big one! you mean i can keep overcoming human ignorance and come to you in person in this lifetime? just like i always wanted, to be with the lord if he is on the planet? if this is for real, god, i need you to knock me off my feet just like you did to st. paul! i am so dense i need a really strong sign....' and as i wished this prayer out from my most vulnerable inner child place, i tripped on the plywood table that was down low, about shin-high..you, know, with pillows all around, and fell flat on my face on that table in that premie house. what happened next never happened to me before, nor has it happened since, not even on chemicals. (and i hadn't done any in a few years). everything turned into sparkling clear amber glass with a most bright light shining all around, not from any one noticeable source. i saw through my body, the house, the trees, everything as if the whole creation around me was an amber crystal exhibit with halogen lights shining all over from an unseen source....halogen is primitive compared to what i experienced. and i felt the presence of a very joyful being all around me...i didn't hear a 'voice', but on the inside i got the message something to the effect of 'is that good enough for you?' and soundless laughter all through my body. i carry the scars of that collision with the plywood table on my shins to this day and can't figure out why they are still there. (i didn't hit the table that hard, you know? i was just walking around that little house some 25 years ago or so, and those scars remain plainly visible on my legs today.) needless to say, i considered this the answer i sought, left the order, wandered around the countryside for awhile, hitching around and spending some time with my family and finding out about maharaji. i did not receive knowledge until four years later in 1978, after unwinding internally from monastic life. (before i left the order, some of the 'masters teachers' poo-poo'd maharaji as not having the light when i wrote them about it and told them in person. i have heard that when charananand went to san francisco the first time and the crowd was noisy, some of the brothers form the order were in the back and ommed and quieted the place down for him.) now all this new/old information is coming to light. i need time to work through it. i am not an apologist, an asskisser, or anything else or the sort. i am just like you with a few variations. and i have alot to sort through, given my history. so be cool with me or don't, i'm working out my life over here just like you are working out your life over there. i remember when we used to have darshan, there was some buzz about if he was looking away from you it meant this, and if he was looking up it meant that, and if he was looking straight at you it meant something else. we all looked for smiles or recognition and meaning to every little twitch. but he always loved us, we were told. now i just don't know some things i need to know in order to proceed with my life at peace and in harmony with myself. there's a difference between not knowing something and doubt. there is so much new informtion here that i am overwhelmed by it. i won't allow myself to get consciously ensnared by verbal conundrums from any side of this issue. we all get fooled from time to time, but i am being especially vigilant as i can at this point in my life to stay alert. and that is the simple truth. You said: Why did your friend kill himself? Was it because his father was sexually molesting him? Would you blame his poor obsessive father then? Did you ask around, or try to find out the true facts involved when there were no archives to go to and no posts to testify to what happened? Or do you prefer to withdraw into 'probabilities' that are safe and point the finger only at Joe? He just couldn't take it, shp. Try not to blame those who dished it out beyond his emotional limitations. He was weak, they were ignorant? Brian, i was about 14 years old, man. it was 1963. I didn't investigate joe's death. I was a kid. I accepted it. I didn't blame anybody, and i don't know why he did it. all i know is it happened and it was a very sad and disillusioning time. You said: Who does Maharaji cry for? Himself? Others? Anyone? Does he even cry, shp? i don't know. i can only answer for myself. i cry when i cry. i don't get a warning from my tearducts or my feelings when it's going to happen. it's a natural honest experience that i don't want to force or repress any more than natural honest laughter, or natural honest affection, or natural honest curiosity, or natural honest indignation at what appears to be an injustice. i can't relate to praise and blame, but i can relate to the idea of responsibility. maharaji, i believe, assumed responsibility for his ashram premies to some degree, but i don't know, having never lived in one of his ashrams. why he did not reply to cries for help in some tangible way they could feel, i do not understand. if i stay open, the answer will come. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 14:41:41 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: shp Subject: reply to Brian Message: I don't know, gerry, but I'm starting to like ole Sandy. Sorry, but I am. now all this new/old information is coming to light. i need time to work through it. i am not an apologist, an asskisser, or anything else or the sort. i am just like you with a few variations. and i have alot to sort through, given my history. so be cool with me or don't, i'm working out my life over here just like you are working out your life over there. I have to hand it to you, Sandy. You are here, you are reading, you are talking and you are considering new information instead of just dismissing it like so many premies here do. AND, I might add, for someone who is deeply programmed (with scars on the shins to prove it) that is a BIG step. Anyway, I'm rooting for you to figure things out. I think you have a good heart, and that won't change whether or not you believe in Maharaji. For what it is worth, it's my impression that the experience you had while Maharaji was on Merv was something that came from YOU not due to him. When I was a child I could lie in bed at night and see light--the same light that I saw last year when I practised technique number one on this web site. (Maharaji used to call this the 'light' technique) I'm saying THAT experience is yours and Maharaji didn't give it to you. So maybe the experience in the premie house is the same. Best Wishes to you, VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 16:26:52 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: VP Subject: reply to VP Message: VP, thanks for your kind vibe, even though we have this fundamental difference of opinion about Maharaji right now. your companions on the site could learn something valuable from you - compassion. (i can hear some exers tearing me up already - and you too, just because we are having a diplomatic communication without insults.) i want to be able to talk to you, my family, friends, strangers, and anyone about anything - even the most unpleasant subjects - without the conversation itself becoming unpleasant, so that the information can come through. it's so tempting to slam someone you don't agree with, it's so easy to slip into that nasty vibe...then that nastiness becomes the message, the conflict becomes one-on-one personal, and the greater issue is lost in negative emotion, and the communication is lost. in my efforts to be this clear, i get accused of watering down the issue by being conversational (runamok and others). how far would that behavior get someone in any other venue other than this medium and this website, and perhaps the jerry springer show?? not far, i imagine. the only low road that got anybody anywhere faster was to scotland, like the song says. otherwise, i like to take the high road. what prompted you to do light as a child? i used to press and rub my eyes to see black and green zigzags, but that was it until i read yogananda and called babaji's name and get a flash of blue white light in a totally dark room. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 17:02:55 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: shp Subject: reply to shp Message: I don't think that I was prompted to do light as a child. I just closed my eyes and saw light. Why I saw it, I don't know. I didn't press on my eyes or anything. This was before I knew who Maharaji was. That is why I think it is a human physical/psychological experience that does not have to be taught by a master. Now the devotional experience is another ball of wax... Thank you for your kind words also. You seem like a good guy, even if we disagree about Maharaji. Peace Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 17:25:10 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: shp Subject: what sets people off Message: You said something about some people on this site learning from me. I am guilty of getting angry here, too. Maybe different things set me off. PT really makes me angry. I think he is mean and so I want to shake him. Then I have to remember that he can't help himself and is deluded so I try to muster up some sympathy for the guy. Your different point of view about Maharaji appears to frustrate the hell out of some people here. They want to shake you. It hurts me more than it frustrates me so I guess that is why I don't get angry at you. I simply wish everyone could see Maharaji for what he is, especially someone nice like you. I think so many of the exes who post here are compassionate and wonderful people. (Especially the ones I have met personally or in email.) Some of them aren't even irritated by Chris Dickey, which may make them better people than I am-snicker! Just kidding, Chris. Well, sort of...:) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 15:24:56 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: shp Subject: light, light and more.... Message: shp: Strange you should mention a 'before K' experience of light. While I won't go into detail in this post, I have written in the past that I had a series of blinding/clear light experiences prior to K. These were among the things that 'drove' me into the arms of someone that said they could/would show it to me, directly. Needless to say, post-K, I never experienced it to the level that I had prior to K (faint glimmer as opposed to blinding, etc)..... hmmmmmm.... You would think that I would have gotten a clue from the 'lack' of 'experience' associated with M and K. Especially after he PROMISED! Oh well.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 16:40:25 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: Mike Subject: light, light and more.... Message: oh oh I just mentioned before K light Does that mean something? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 21:28:30 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: shp Subject: Prayers Message: Like Mike, I had experiences with light before I received Knowledge. Mine came about like yours - due to prayer. I can't explain the mechanism, but I know that Maharaji isn't the answerer of my prayers in life. Or anyone elses, for that matter. Here's a link to how Jesus answers prayers that are prayed to him. I used to pray to Mata Ji too, and had those prayers answered. That's the reason I was hit so hard by her denouncing him. Personally, I believe that the person praying out of faith and from the heart has a lot more involvement in the outcome than the 'target' that is being prayed to. Catholics pray to various saints, who are just dead people that the Pope has declared to be saints. Their prayers are answered too. I realize that you get a lot of criticism here for expressing your views, but I just try to point out the inconsistencies in your statements. There are many people reading the posts that deserve to see statements rebutted, even if those people aren't personally posting here yet. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 23:44:56 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: Brian Subject: Prayers Message: Well how about that. So that's where you get your backbone. Most folks don't read the bible because of the old testament I suppose, I have limited myself to just the four gospels only and Mark is a short interesting story. I know Paul is a huge hit. His impression has been taken by many. But I avoid Paul, althought that is impossible because his words are everywhere. I like having my own impression from the four gospels. Besides the 4 gospels, my favorite christian writer is brother Lawrence. Or as I call him, Larry the cook. Ever read him? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 09:29:49 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: bill Subject: Not exactly Message: Well how about that. So that's where you get your backbone. Most folks don't read the bible because of the old testament Uh, that's not what I meant. I don't read the Bible because of BOTH testiments. I'm not into basing my life on other people's testimonies anymore - dead or living. But the link popped up in a Yahoo! search for GMJ, and the guy was an ex-premie. Both SHP and I had strong experiences due to 'prayer' and this guy did too. The only difference was that the Christian thought he was praying to someone else. 'Maharaji' didn't answer his prayer, but 'Jesus' did. My point was that any power in prayer isn't about who is listening or answering, but about who is praying. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 09:56:25 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Brian Subject: prayer Message: Brian said: 'Personally, I believe that the person praying out of faith and from the heart has a lot more involvement in the outcome than the 'target' that is being prayed to.' I believe this too. Lately I've been going deeper into prayer because of the major problems and cancer in my life. These are life/death situations. I don't pray for a specific outcome, at least not in a physical sense. I give myself to Spirit, who for me manifests as Tibetan deities. These are true for me in Spiritual Sense. Personally, these deities are entirely consonant with Jesus and Hindu deities. Interestingly, there are numerous studies that prayer works. I believe it. Works for me and many others who I know and have read about. A good book on this is Healing Words: The Power of Prayer and the Practice of Medicine by Larry Dossey, MD. I'm not looking to objectively prove that my way is 'The Way' for anyone else. Of course it's not 'scientifically logical' nor PC in many varieties of religious belief. I don't want to argue about it. The point is that it works for me. What I am looking for is deep awareness and authenticity and Love and Truth. I work my way through, trusting in intuition, reports from others and the power within. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 11:06:30 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Brian Subject: Not exactly Message: I don't know how or why or if prayer works, but I know this statement from Brian's link is bullshit and the source of a lot of misunderstanding and misery in the world: Yes, it was so simple - Christ had proven His love for us by dying a torturous death on the Cross, to pay for our sins. In fact, His entire life was a demonstration that He alone is love. He alone is God! More magical thinking. (I'm not saying Brian buys into this myth.) Does anyone know what this person is talking about here: For a while, I became deceived by the Guru Maharaj Ji, who convinced me that He was God. He did supernatural miracles, and as far as I could tell, that indicated that you were God, or at least empowered by God. Jeez, I guess I missed the ''miracles'' phase. Was that before or after the 707 slavery fiasco? Guess I should have stuck around longer... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 12:59:17 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: gerry Subject: Miracles.... Message: gerry: You know about THE miracles, don't you? Like when he raised a baby from the dead in India (of course, it COULDN'T happen in the west) and the 'instant rainbow' at Hans Jayanti in orlando...etc, etc... gee, gerry you missed the good stuff... he he he ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 12:59:13 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: SHP Subject: suicide Message: SHP: Thanks for the post, and for your very sincere thoughts. Re: then the very objective bean-counter in me reminds me about the law of large numbers and percentages of this-and-that happening in large groups of people. That's an easy one. Is the suicide rate for premies significantly different than for the society at large? If not, there's no relationship. If so what is it's magnitude, and what explains the relationship. Is it causal or spurious? Re: i cannot attribute to maharaji, as distasteful as that may sound to some of you. it is probable based on information posted, that the conditions with the instructors, or in the ashrams or the communities or the relationships in which these tragedies occurred aggravated these sensitive souls who became convinced there was no other way. So you seem to be saying that you believe the relationship spurious, without any real empirical evidence for that belief. (i.e., 'sensitive people' commit suicide at a higher rate than others in the population.) It seems reasonable that vulnerable people do, but I see little reason to assume that sensitive people would be at a dis-advantage there. In fact, why not the opposite? These are themes that you can play around with. Vulnerable people would also probably be more likely to join cults, so if this is true then why not lump DLM/EV in with these as well? Same population. Finally, even if the suicide rate is a consequence of the intervention of mahatmas/instructors (which can now be tested) wasn't he responsible for this? Since these people are no longer involved we would have a way of testing this hypothesis, BTW. Is the suicide rate different recently? The problem is that 'knowledge lite' may, in fact, result in a lower suicide rate. So, again, the issue is if cults with a lighter hand result in lower suicide rates then why not conclude that the least suicides occur under non-cult conditions? You have to bend the pretzel around pretty severely to avoid this logic. BTW, a classic study of suicide was conducted by one of the fathers of sociology, David Emile Durkheim (1858-1917). It is simply entitled Suicide. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 14:08:11 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: suicide Message: scott, i have no answers to your statistical questions. i wasn't mincing words with regard to sensitive vs. vulnerable. i was just speaking from my heart. yeah, sensitive folks are not necessarily the ones most at risk, as you pointed out. perhaps it would be more accurate to say that those who saw no hope, no future, no joy in living were the most at risk. and what would make them feel that way to the point of ending it all? on one hand, the teacher emphasizes the supreme value of this human life in almost every public address he has ever given, and yet he is being blamed for not respecting those precious human lives who have dedicated everything to him by not responding to their cries for help. i honestly don't get it. but i will. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 14:50:11 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: shp Subject: suicide Message: SHP: Re: on one hand, the teacher emphasizes the supreme value of this human life in almost every public address he has ever given, and yet he is being blamed for not respecting those precious human lives who have dedicated everything to him by not responding to their cries for help. Not to be picky, but we have a good deal of evidence that he does not care very much, and almost no evidence that he does. (Actually, I think 'almost' is an understatement.) If empirical evidence is worth anything it does not help us to the conclusion that M has much regard for the lives under his charge. This, in fact, is not surprising, since there is next to nothing he can do to fulfill his exorbitant promises. In this he is a bit like a politician, except that he has no party with an interest in making sure he at least delivers on some of his promises. Also, whenever he is threatened with any real accountability (such as a credible threat to sue) he often responds. That should tell you something. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 16:30:10 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: suicide Message: it does. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 00:06:07 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: shp Subject: suicide Message: shp: Re: it does. For heaven's sake, what? -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 01:26:26 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: suicide Message: you said: Also, whenever he is threatened with any real accountability (such as a credible threat to sue) he often responds. That should tell you something. i said: it does. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 14:15:20 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: djrayovac@aol. com To: all Subject: I went down to the archives... Message: could not make amends. ' Went down to the archives could not make amends. If you see me looking down some I'm just sitting on my fence. I used to be a celibate, and saved someone from a rape. When a celibate I was a Jesuit, and my insight's really great. If I seem incoherent, it's probably just getting late. Did I send out enuf messages, each exe can have his own. Yes I only want to say agree or to you that I disown. If I limit them in number I won't be as well known. I went down to the archives just like you told me to do. I went down to the archives searching my soul about the guru. With so many in my theater of selves you can be one of me too. No I could ever use email have to post each thought in my head. And even tho this is an Anti-M site I'll say it's not M's fault those people are dead, but my tone will be so conversational even while you're all turning red. I went down to the archives could not make amends. 'Down to the archives could not make amends. If you see me looking down some I'm just sitting on my fence. PS Try email sometimes ship. Takes the exhibitionism out of baring your soul. |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 14:32:22 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Runamok Subject: I went down to the archives... Message: i can hear harmonica and ghee-tar as i read your rhyming post you express yourself well ol' run your verbally better off than most only problem is, amok wit and truth don't share your post. i could go on and on like you did match your verses line for line i could go on like you did temporarily i'd feel fine but there's more at stake here so i'll save it for another time. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 15:59:34 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: shp Subject: 3:00 on the Playground Message: Well I woke up this morning, did not know what to do. Woke up this morning, did not know what to do. Shippy sure is dissing me with the power of the g'ru. Trying to get things done now, trying to make it thru my day. Yes I'm trying to get things done now, but I've so much still to say. If Shippy can't understand a little more then I wish he'd go away. You know you can't say we hate strangers here, no you can't say this at all. But you can say we have purpose here, in our little cyber-hall. And we tolerate disagreement, but Goomiragey not at all. You know I'm older than a young man. Guru took an arm and leg. You know I could have given him money, but money wouldn't keep him away. If he sucks the souls out of fresh young blood at least they'll hear what I did say. You know the guru is waste of time and he'll waste as much as you give. He will lie his way thru thick and thin and then forget you even live. If you get a change then leave him, that's right- just drop the IF! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 16:42:36 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Runamok Subject: 3:00 on the Playground Message: da DA da dup. da DA da dup. da DA da dup. waaaaaaaaaaa da DA da dup. (repeat and change as often as necessary) (your premade baseline for the next post.) i love jazz and blues. go for it. just one thing: Shippy sure is dissing me with the power of the g'ru. not so. that was from me to you. nobody else involved. mano y mano, can you deal with that? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 17:51:40 (EST)
From: chr Email: None To: shp Subject: 3:00 on the Playground Message: Thanks for your post,shp. I had never thought about how much M ridiculed his instructors--but come to think of it he rarely had anything positive to say.I guess we all thought it was ego flaying.I knew some instructors who went through hell. As far as what M thinks about premies who are/were suffering, I honestly have no idea.He was an enigma when I was around him .I saw him show tenderness towards his children,otherwise it wasn't apparent.A close friend of mine who had served and totally dedicated herself to him for most of her adult life was in real need of help.She asked M personally for his help and advice,believing in all sincerity that he had the answer to everything.He told her to go and see a psychiatrist.He also told another friend in the mid 80s( and I have no reason to doubt this-he was very close to M at this time) that he was thinking of giving it all away.Whether he didnt for financial reasons,or he truly believed he he had a mission to fulfil for his father,I dont know.I gues what I am saying is that when it comes to the crunch,M doesn't have the answers. cheers, chr. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 18:27:17 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: shp Subject: 3:00 on the Playground Message: You need your own website, Ship. Somewhere people can address only your concerns or their own concerns which coincide with yours. Then you can respond to each and every posting with your opinion, sometimes just a verbal nod of the head or a quick thrashing... Somewhere where your opinion can be the central focus of everyones search, not just your own. Maybe you can spark a fire with your sincerity and cash in before you become to jaded about gurus by hanging out with us. Behold, your time is at hand. School's out and I'll be there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 18:34:28 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Runamok Subject: 3:00 on the Playground Message: you are such a control freak. you want to tell me how to express and what to express and where to express and when to express why can't you just state your case about what it is we are talking about and let that information stand on its own merit and listen to feedback then keep what you want and let go of the rest and give other people the same respect you think you deserve whatever their opinions are it's called communication i'm on the playground over here Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 00:05:32 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: shp Subject: 3:00 on the Playground Message: It does really seem like you're the one doing the flaming around here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 01:31:03 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Runamok Subject: 3:00 on the Playground Message: you dish and dish and dish and dish it out and then when i give you something direct you act all hurty-wurty i don't have the time or the inclination to point out your specific lack of attention to this thread read it over yourself and walk a mile in my mocassins while you are reading it. this ain't flamin', brother this is just straight talk Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 01:10:56 (EST)
From: op Email: None To: all Subject: suicide and more suicide Message: The < final solution > approach is incredibly intricate and delicate. I don't know how anyone can look into another human being's brain and decide this happened because of this or lack of that. I've been close to suicide victims for most of my life - a close relative who tried to kill herself three times before she was finally heavily medicated for the rest of her life; my mother's best friend who also tried three times and was laughed at by her husband before she succeeded at the fourth try; another close friend of my parents' - a van Gogh type, truly - who was hospitalized in New York but no bars on the windows were able to prevent him from finding another way out. Among the premies I've known who committed suicide: one very depressed and disturbed person in New York. I had spent some time talking to him, but didn't realize the depth of his despair. I had a young baby at the time, and he kept coming to see me for more and more attention. I wish I'd been able to read him better. One day I sent him away - not meanly, I just told him that I didn't have time to talk that day, to please come another time. He killed himself sometime between that afternoon and the next day. What responsibility do I bear? I felt it very strongly at the time, but I really believe this was much bigger than anything I could handle. If I'd spent days and months talking to him, would that have done any more than put it off another few days or months? I'm not trying to be callous here, it was REALLY a matter for someone with much more training - or maybe it was inevitable. I knew another premie who committed suicide because her HUSBAND had cancer, and she couldn't face bringing up the children alone after his death. She wanted to beat him to it. Or at least that's as far as we could read it. And another, a young man who fell madly in love with an ashram premie. She wanted nothing to do with him, and probably wasn't very sensitive to him. When she went on vacation with her parents, he followed them and hung himself on a tree outside her hotel room. I know of quite a few other cases (non-premies; these were the only premie suicides I was close to). Each has a completely unique life story, and the only thing I can see in common is that one reaches a point in life where there appears to be NO light, no breathing space, no future. Anybody out there read The Bell Jar by Sylvia Plath? Personally, I'm all for celebrating the lives of those people who left too soon. I just don't know how anyone who has not experienced that edge of gloom can presume to know exactly why a person chooses suicide. When the woman with the cancer-ridden husband killed herself, I felt the same kind of anger I was later to feel toward Kurt Kobain. A waste! A self-indulgent, egocentric action - thoughtless and impulsive. But can I presume to know what she was going through? Just my two-cents worth. Jim, I know you feel very strongly about Dave Weiner's suicide; please don't feel you have to argue out the point that in his case you DID know exactly why it happened. All I really want to do here is - damn!, it's so hard to say when I feel I have to weigh every word! - All I want to do is acknowledge and send some respect and empathy for those who did take their own lives. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 01:53:43 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: op Subject: suicide and more suicide Message: Just my two-cents worth. Jim, I know you feel very strongly about Dave Weiner's suicide; please don't feel you have to argue out the point that in his case you DID know exactly why it happened. All I really want to do here is - damn!, it's so hard to say when I feel I have to weigh every word! - All I want to do is acknowledge and send some respect and empathy for those who did take their own lives. Op, You here for a little conversation this time or just another anonymous potshot? That's right, with all the time you've been here we still don't know who you are. Whatever. Anyway, yes, you anticipated my point. And rightfully so. After all, Dave's example puts the lie to YOUR point, doesn't it? Tell me, op, that you have 'no idea' why Dave killed himself. Tell me that it would be unsafe to speculate that Maharaji's AGYA (i.e. 'Leave no room for doubt in your mind') had something to do with it. Tell me Maharaji shouldn't have considered the impact this kind of make believe would have on people. Tell me he's not responsible for the forseeable circumstances of his Lord of the Universe prank. Tell me you can't judge that. Go fuck yourself. But before you do, one last thing. The only reason you ahve to weight your words so carefully here is because you're trying to fool everyone, including yourself, with them. You want to go to 'x' and you figure you can find some combination of seemly sentiment and verbal packaging to get you there. But, op, you can't have everything. You want truth or not? Na, I don't give a flying fuck what you say. I am completely disgusted with you as a human being. COMPLETELY. Your game's subtler than PT's but it's just as despicable. Don't you even mention Dave again until you're willing to talk honestly. You don't deserve the right. Unlike you, he actually cared about the truth. You DON'T deserve to talk about him, not with me anyway. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 03:29:02 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: None To: Jim Subject: suicide and more suicide Message: If what he had been led to believe to be the truth had frightened him to the point of suicide then he was certainly sincere in his actions. There were times when I also was so utterly freaked out by Maharaji's extreme version of the truth that I wished I was dead. A person can only take so much. I remember some time during the seventies a premie complained that Knowledge was just a heavy trip. I was relieved by his candour because that's exactly what I felt too. But I was stuck in the midst of this really heavy trip and I couldn't see the wood for the trees. If the Internet and this forum had been around back then and I had been better informed, I would have left Maharaji's heavy trip immediately. It was tearing me apart. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 08:16:17 (EST)
From: The Red Knight Email: none at this moment in time To: op Subject: suicide and more suicide Message: Hey OP , I like your style . Would you be the mother of my children ? Jim , not everyone is as hard and empty as you man . You want to be careful that one of your cold hearted outbursts does'nt send a more sensitive soul over the edge , and would you care anyway ? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 10:09:31 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: op Subject: op vs. Maharaji Message: I felt it very strongly at the time, but I really believe this was much bigger than anything I could handle. If I'd spent days and months talking to him, would that have done any more than put it off another few days or months? I'm not trying to be callous here, it was REALLY a matter for someone with much more training - or maybe it was inevitable. We can't be responsible for every person. We can't control their every action. We can be sympathetic and loving and lend an ear in a time of need. You alone know what responsibility you bear or don't bear in the death of your friend. You say you don't know if you could have helped, so I'll assume that's true. I just hope you aren't trying to say because you had no responsibility in the above example, that Maharaji has none in the suicides of some premies. It's a different ballgame. You are not the Lord or Master of anyone as far as I know. I assume your friend didn't call you up to beg for direction out of desperation because YOU WERE GOD. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 11:26:42 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: op Subject: suicide and more suicide Message: Dear op - I appreciate what you said, and I think it was kindly meant (although others may disagree). Yours is the most positive response that we've gotten from a premie about memorializing other premies that committed suicide. And I do agree with you that it's an very complex issue, and there is really no certain way to tell exactly why a person commits suicide. I don't think anyone here thinks that they can get into someone's head and say 'They killed themselves because of Maharaji.' But in some of these cases, the circumstantial evidence leading up to the suicide indicates that this was probably the case. (In some cases it doesn't, but I still feel that these people should be remembered). Our plan for this is to write as much as we know about each person, in a sensitive and loving manner. In some cases, we only know their name and where they lived. In others, the people involved were close friends and family members of some of the ex-premies who post on the forum, and there is a lot more to say. Personally, I don't see this as an opportunity for taking shots at Maharaji. I just do think that these people should be remembered somewhere - it often seems like the premie community was very uncomfortable with deaths, and thus these people were never spoken of or eulogized - the water just closed over their heads. I also appreciate you telling us about the other suicides you know about. If you care to submit their names to the list, I'd be happy to include them. And, BTW, I am sorry to hear the story about the person who killed himself after seeing you - that must have been very difficult for you. I know it would have been devastating for me. Since I've been working on this premie suicide page, I have been having a bad time because I keep thinking about what more I could have done for my friend who killed himself. I was young and immature and self-centered at the time (I'm not implying that you were like this) and I wish so much that I had done more to keep in touch with him. Take care, op. Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 11:55:18 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Katie Subject: If I may disagree slightly... Message: Katie: I generally agree with you concerning the actual 'cause' of the suicide. BUT... and this is HUGE.... M didn't take it upon himself to respond to ANY troubled premie (unless threatened with legal action). THIS is unacceptable! OP HAS NEVER called on others for worship or adulation! Therefore, OP, if you are reading this, isn't in the same 'boat' as M with regards to personal responsibility. If OP (or I, for that matter) said to a troubled premie, 'Stop, don't take your life. K will save you...,' whatever, it wouldn't have had any real effect (IMHO). If M had taken the time to PERSONALLY communicate (letter, phone, whatever) and said the very same thing, the troubled premie would have been BEAMING with joy from hearing the voice of his/her LORD! THIS is where I hold M responsible: HE HAD THE POWER (real or perceived) TO STOP IT and didn't use it!!!! It may not have stopped every single suicide, but it would have stopped MOST of them in their tracks! M's an ASSHOLE, pure and simple. On this single issue, I find him without any merit as a supposed human. His total lack of action PROVES that he doesn't give a damn about anyone but himself.... Gawd, he's a sh_t! OP, I seriously doubt that you could have stopped your friend. BUT, if you KNEW that you could have stopped it or thought you might have some power over this individual, I doubt that you would have hesitated for ONE SINGLE SECOND in using that 'power' to stop the act immediately! THIS IS the major difference between you and M. I, likewise, am VERY sad to hear of your friend. It's not a fate that I would wish on anyone left behind! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 12:36:24 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Mike Subject: We're on the same page Message: I agree with you, Mike, that if the suicidal person did write letters or try and call M, and met with no response (even from a P.A.M.), then that is wrong. I suspect that many of these people felt so bad about themselves that they did not try and contact M - I know I wouldn't have if I would have been in that situation. I felt generally unworthy and guilty the entire time I practiced K - I could never DO ENOUGH, and I knew it. I felt really bad about myself and I thought M probably didn't like me very much either. But, as you know, I know of at least one case where the person who killed themselves did write many letters to M and did try and contact him and met with no response. This is fact, and I see no reason for not including it in their story. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 15:28:51 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Katie Subject: We're on the same page Message: Katie: Thanks. I definitely understand where you are coming from, in regards to our collective lack of self-esteem and self-worth while actively engaged in premiedom. THAT is the largest hurdle to get over (IMHO). I think many fence-sitters are sitting 'there' because they KNOW they, too, will have to go over this hurdle. 'You mean I wasted a portion of my life on a fraud???? Oh my god!' The only problem with fence-sitting is that you are wasting EVEN MORE TIME by not making a decision! While on the fence, you can't even enjoy your own life (for fear of doing something that might offend the LARD). How insidious this cult-think really is! I guess my last word on the subject of M's responsibility for premie suicides would be this: If one of M's apologists says that he 'couldn't possibly have known' that he had that kind of power over premies, then the ONLY conclusion left would be that M is the MOST STUPID mammal that has ever lived on this earth, bar none! I, for one, don't believe that ANYONE could be THAT stupid. I think TOTALLY SELFISH is the ONLY term for M. Jeez, I wish premies could see this! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 16:06:47 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Mike Subject: point of order/information Message: you said: 'our collective lack of self-esteem and self-worth while actively engaged in premiedom. THAT is the largest hurdle to get over (IMHO). I think many fence-sitters are sitting 'there' because they KNOW they, too, will have to go over this hurdle.' >i have been accused of being a fence-sitter here, so i will take the liberty of responding to your remark even though i am not a fence-sitter: with regard to 'our collective lack of self-esteem and self-worth while actively engaged in premiedom...is the largest hurdle...many premies...wil have to get over this hurdle', speak for yourself. my self-esteem and self-worth are intact. 'While on the fence, you can't even enjoy your own life (for fear of doing something that might offend the LARD)'....where did you get this? do you have direct experience of this phenomenon? when i am being true to myself while i am in the process of making a decision, and i am not judging myself as going too slow or too fast in the process, but just letting myself naturally do what i do and grow how i grow, like a tree or any other living thing, i feel great, even during the process of uncertainty. i accept the omnipresence of the divine and the uncondtional love i have been promised, even in my darkest hour. i was confident of the presence of this love and power in my life long before i met maharaji, so his authenticity or lack of is not the question here now. mike, i advise you to reconsider your words in the above post. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 18:22:44 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: shp Subject: Why did you take this Message: Personally, shp? It is more than obvious that you did. You will note that Katie and others have talked at length about the self-esteem issue. So, apparently it applies to more people than just ME. M's cult is spectacular in the self-esteem-removal department. Everything 'good' that occurs is his grace, everything 'bad' that occurs is MY FAULT.... Bullsh_t! EVERY PREMIE has been affected by this, so I think I can easily speak about lack of self-worth/esteem among premies! I contend that YOU, shp, have NO REAL SELF-ESTEEM! How can I say this? Because you NEED a guru to make your life worthwhile! I, on the other hand, DO NOT! My life is worthwhile, just the way it is. I'm a wothwhile human being even if 'I' don't KNOW the ultimate truth (whatever that is) and have stopped my useless search for this fantasy. Again, you seem to need this to consider yourself fulfilled. So, you tell me, who has self-esteem? If you really felt like you were worth something, you wouldn't be searching for anything 'more.' YES, shp, I experienced the 'fear of being wrong' MYSELF, PERSONALLY! I was concerned (in a huge way) about 'what might happen' if HE was REALLY GOD and I unplugged. His 'rotten vegetables' satsang had alot to do with my feelings. Lastly, I wasn't talking about you as a fence-sitter, shp. I think you are still very much under the M-spell. BTW, if unconditional love is what YOU are looking for, PET YOUR DOG! You aren't likely to find it elsewhere, unless you find a spouse that is as wonderful as mine! You sure as hell will not find it from ANY so-called guru or spiritual leader. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 18:52:01 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Mike Subject: my dog just died Message: about a month ago. i can't pet him anymore. had him 9 years. now you really pissed me off, bringing up my dead beloved Tiny. (busting your chops, just kidding, como se dice ha ha ha?) i though about what i had said to you and had just posted another be more real with you and myself. so i got a little snooty, it wasn't intentional, i give up, 'uncle'. chill.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 22:36:21 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: mike Subject: reply to mike Message: i really did have a dog named tiny for 9 yrs who just recently died. i wasn't kidding about that. i was kidding about being pissed at you. please check out subsequent post. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 17:24:26 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Mike Subject: We're on the same page Message: I agree, Mike with everything in your post. Regarding self-esteem, I think a lot of the depression after coming to terms with Maharaji's fraudulent nature comes from one's wondering 'My God, what does this say about me that I could have fallen for this. Is my self-regard that low? Am I a selfish asshole, too? Or am I just plain stupid?' Many questions and re-evaluations take place. I totally agree with your counterargument to those premies who say that GM couldn't possibly have known that he had power over people. I mean, hello??!!! Get a clue from the clue phone, premies!!!! POWER is ALL that GM has. All of the power and NONE of the responsibility. AN examination of the nature of power is definitely in order, all those if you who are still apologizing for GM Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 17:38:54 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: Mike Subject: not-holier-than-thou Message: mike, after thinking a little bit about what you said, i had a recollection of my 'dark night of the soul' experiences when i was between different worlds, before maharaji and during. i can relate to the experience you speak of, but there is a remedy. it's called faith. the very real yet allegorical place we all have to pass through at one time or another: 'yea, tho i walk through the valley of the shadow of death i shall fear no evil for thou art with me thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies thou anointest my head with oil my cup runneth over surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life and i shall dwell in the house of the lord forever.' -psalm 23/david Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 16:46:23 (EST)
From: dv Email: None To: Katie Subject: Suicide fad Message: I can see it now. M responds to a premie threatening suicide, the next thing you know, more and more premies start getting suicidal for his attention, like the fainting at darshan fad. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 17:42:48 (EST)
From: chr Email: None To: dv Subject: Suicide fad Message: I don't think M knows how to cope with devoties experiencing difficulties.As I said in an earlier post,even premies who were very close to him were dismissed flippantly.He seems incapable of taking any responsibility.Some of these premies really needed help and his solution was to tell them to see a psychiatrist and then make sure they werent around him anymore.Fortunately I don't think any of the ones I'm talking about took their lives,but it did take a lot of strength and time to resolve the pain and damage that had occurred as a result of M. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 12:18:04 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: OP Subject: Dear OP: Message: I know what you mean. None of us can take complete responsibility for preventing someone else's death. A premie friend of mine died suddenly from Marphans (sp) disease. Zillah was a neat woman who had gradually drifted away from MJ. When she broke up with her ne'er-do-well premie husband, her family set her up in her hometown. I used to take responsibility for calling her about every program MJ was having. Many times relented and went to see him. The last time I went to call her and then cradled the phone; she died a week after that program. I went to her funeral with Anne and did not stop crying for about two days. WHY WAS I CRYING UNCONTROLLABLY? I WAS GUILTY OF NOT BEING PREMIE JI! I HAD BLOWN HER LAST CHANCE TO SEE THE LORD! (Talk about co-dependent) I'm glad to be rid of that guilt trip. I hope she didn't think of MJ with her last breath. Many times over the last 24 years with MJ I wished I were dead. I had a 24-year latent depressed. I was a failure with K and a failure in the world (anything short of Bill Gates status is a failure for me). I wished I were dead so much that I'm lucky it didn't happen. I don't feel like that anymore (for the most part-New Year's was a little depressing). When you think about the alternatives, there's nothing like life, is there? When this game is over--who knows? NOBODY!!!!! Not even MJ. MJ shouldn't have flogged K as god within. He doesn't know that either. He shouldn't have perpetuated the myth of karma and reincarnation. He doesn't know that either. In fact, he knows less than I do. I really do know that I know nothing. He doesn't. The two things MJ knows better than I do are: a) How to completely believe in yourself and your entitlement to all the good things life has to offer b) How to squeeze a buck from even the poorest of the poor Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 13:20:48 (EST)
From: The Unknown Therapist Email: None To: Gail Subject: Wanna feel good ? Message: a) How to completely believe in yourself and your entitlement to all the good things life has to offer Model this. (anything short of Bill Gates status is a failure for me) Change this belief. Dr. Feelgood, TUT, M&M, LLsD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 17:30:42 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: The Unknown Therapist Subject: Wanna feel good ? Message: This post has Mr. Clarity or Mike all over it. Am I right? Am I right? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 16:49:39 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Helen Subject: Wasn't me....(nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 00:36:19 (EST)
From: dv Email: None To: Gail Subject: Dear OP: Message: Your beautifal and poignant post reminded me of a koan I once read: life is a game |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 01:38:59 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: shp Subject: Goes Around/Comes Around (nt) Message: drinking nectar Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 19:10:55 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: Everyone Subject: A Sad Observation Message: Greetings all. I was discussing this forum with my older sister who became an alcoholic around the time that I became a premie. Now that we are sort of 'recovering' together, we're able to talk openly about our perceptions of times past. My sister had a sad observation IMO about my involvement with the gooroo and DLM. She said it was 'a step up from where I was coming from' and that I 'got a lot out of being a premie.' It's been 25 years since that time, and seeing as how I lost my memory bit by bit with each successive child, I can't remember the life I was running from when I chose to follow the perfect master. But I sort of imagine myself on the Jerry Springer show with bleached blond hair, married to my brother, chewing tobacco, and cussing a lot, pregnant with a toddler. With that image in mind, I can understand my sister's point. Forgive the rambling--it just struck me as very sad. eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 19:21:26 (EST)
From: We're all Jerry Springer Email: None To: eb Subject: material when the right Message: buttons are pushed! We chose goomeradgi. Your sister chose booze. They are both dreadful addictions that lead to brain damage. I'm glad you each have the other. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 23:12:18 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: eb Subject: A Sad Observation Message: Well eb, somehow I'm reminded of an experience I had taking acid a looooooooong time ago. After we started getting off, this guy I had dropped with dared me to look in the mirror. I was in college and we were in a dorm that had full length mirrors in the hall. When he dared me we were walking down the hall towards these mirrors. He was walking in front of me and he walked right up to the mirror and stared into it his face two inches from the glass. He then started screaming hysterically and fell down and started rolling on the floor, but it was okay!, he was just laughing. So, I also went up to the mirror and stared in and, guess what!? I couldn't look away. I was mesmerized, totally in love with my image. Both of us ended up staring into those mirrors at ourselves for long periods of time, and had just a great time. His theory on acid was that if you could look at yourself in the mirror then you were having a very good trip. And my memory of it was that it was wonderful because I fell in love with myself that night. And the fact that I crashed hard didn't diminish my memory of that awe I felt when looking at myself in the mirror. Face it, we are magical creatures. The crazy stuff we did was just our way of deflecting the shit that got thrown at us. Whatever we did and whatever we have to do to make ends meet and get through the day or night does not change the fact that we are magical and totally beyond our own descriptions. I have to admit I do feel sad thinking about my assholic behavior as a guru worshipper, but...it's also very funny. Funny and sad, that's life. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 23:30:59 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: John/eb Subject: A Sad Observation Message: I've been thinking about these things too. It was a replacement family of sorts wasn't it? It doesn't surprise me at all that I became involved with this trip, I was always looking for an escape and a way to go on 'automatic pilot' and not think about things--it was too painful, my home situation was too awful. It was a step up to get all that 'love'--I mean anything's a step up when you're coming from less than zero, but there was a lot more to climb for later when I had developed some pride in myself. I wouldn't say knowledge 'saved my life' or anything like that, but perhaps it was a way station in which to work a lot of stuff out. I used to spend most of my time thinking when I meditated and I did work out a lot of shit. Those were sort of my refugee days when I was very estranged from my family, Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 08:53:11 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Helen Subject: A Sad Observation Message: Dear Helen, I was thinking about you, you have mentioned being Unitarian I think. You seem so positive. I thought you came from a good family and here I see you didn't. Sorry about that but it does make sense to me now. Now I wonder about JW, I think he had a good family. I guess I was wondering if you came from a loving and supportive family, why would you get sucked in to BM's promises. Hope you have a good day too. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 13:18:09 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Robyn Subject: A Sad Observation Message: Hi Robyn, I am a positive person despite some very weird stuff. Sometime I'll tell you about it. I have understanding about why my childhood was the way it is and I forgive my parents because their alcoholic families were even worse & that was all they knew. I had a lot of counseling when my own husband was in treament for his alcoholism and gained some understanding about family dynamics. The fact that I made it through a lot of weird stuff is one reason why I'm in no hurry to give up my faith in God. I think a lot of people have had childhoods a whole lot worse than mine, also a lot of families that appear quite normal from the outside are really screwed up. You just never know what kinds of shit people are dealing with. Listening to Dr. Laura, as much of a tough bitch that she is, has helped me to just deal with stuff and not whine about it too much. You seem to be the same way, Ms. 'You Do What You Have To Do' (: Love, Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 17:56:00 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Helen Subject: A Sad Observation Message: Dear Helen, Thanks for that. Hey, I have spaced out your email address. Could you post it here or email it to me again? Thanks. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 21:55:15 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Robyn Subject: My email Message: Hey Robyn, My em address is HelenRDC@aol.com Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 08:43:59 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: John Subject: A Sad Observation Message: Dear John, That was an excellent post! Thanks. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 13:59:23 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Thank you my dear! Message: That's an excerpt from my upcoming book 'Destroying the Asshole Within' :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 14:34:59 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: John Subject: Thank you my dear! Message: Dear John, I read a book that was passed around via snail mail called: Getting in Touch with your Inner Bitch Maybe you could get a few pointers on form from that one! It was really great. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 14:52:25 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: John Subject: Destroying the asshole within Message: Damned! I wish I had thought of that. I have always thought, if I could come up with a title than I could write the book. You really should pursue that one. It would sell. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 02:16:13 (EST)
From: shp Email: None To: eb Subject: I'd rather have... Message: a bottle infrontofme than a frontal lobotomy! isn't having a loving understanding SISTER one of the greatest blessings in the world??? YOU ARE ONE LUCKY TOBACCO CHEWING BLEACHED BLONDE DUDETTE! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 03:06:12 (EST)
From: chr Email: None To: eb Subject: A Sad Observation Message: Hey eb, I did service with a bleached blonde gum chewing lady at Hans Jayanti in 78. I cant remember her name,but I was looking after feeding the residence builders.One night I gave her the truck to do something and she nearly had a head on collision with M at 1o'clock in the morning.That wasnt you was it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 06:34:49 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: chr Subject: A Funny Coincidence Message: OHMYGAWD! I'm having a memory. M looked at me with such love and compassion that I was hooked for another 18 years. Except, I don't think I was driving,was I? I remember almost colliding with him in a truck. Damn, I've lost my neural connection ability. To many good times staring in mirrors (thanks, John. you know me all too well). It's 3am in California--the worst time of the morning for me. I'm glad I decided to check in here. You all warm my heart. Yes, having a sister is a blessing, and having 3 ensures a high level of entertainment. This is probably in the archives: once I told my younger sister that rather than following M, I wished I had been more of a deadhead and traveled around to more shows. She observed that I probably learned the same lessons with M that I might've learned with the Dead. Ah well, I was always more of a Bowie fan anyway. And pot made me too paranoid. Sorry to ramble. I do appreciate you all being here. Love, eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 08:50:01 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: eb Subject: A Funny Coincidence Message: Dear Eb, I was up at 3am this morning as well! I know that my 3am, the REAL TIME, is not your 3am but still. I like that time if I don't have to go to work in the morning. I was off work for 18 days and it was GREAT! I was well rested and relaxed. I was just thinking about this issue also and that most of us came from problematic families. I want to say alcohol is worse than the BM thing but then I wasn't hurt or entangled for years. Hope today is good for you. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 12:45:00 (EST)
From: Saul Email: None To: eb Subject: Don't be sad, eb, Message: ...take a positive approach. Maybe you really could get on the Jerry Springer show ('My Guru Messed up my Life!') and they could get MJ to come out as the suprise backstage guest. I would definitely pay to see that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 13:11:49 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: Saul Subject: Great idea, Saul!!! Message: And it gives me more material for my play. I'm currently writing a Christopher Durang-style dyfunctional family play, trying to get it read by MisFit Productions here in San Diego. Perhaps a cross between Jerry Springer and Dick Deitrick (Night Stand)-type show? I couldn't do the actual Jerry Springer show since I quit dying my hair, divorced my brother, through out all my mini skirts and won't wear pumps (except to bed). Thanks Saul! eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 12:41:10 (EST)
From: Saul Email: None To: eb Subject: Great idea, Saul!!! Message: You're most welcome. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 14:41:38 (EST)
From: Selene Email: None To: eb Subject: A Sad Observation Message: You nut you! Since you know the week I have had, maybe you can understand why I have waited to read this thread. Now I wonder why. You cheer me up even when you are sad, eb! I WAS that woman on Jerry S. except I am no way a blonde so I couldn't even try with the dye, so I did the henna thing. God what mess and what a weird red color. Yup pregneant with a toddler. There I was. Smoked but didn't chew. Who knows how our lives would have been different? and does it matter? I mean, we go one way or another. The gooroo thing helped me in many ways, but it hurt in a lot of ways. So does any path we choose, I imagine. Nothing I have found in life is perfect. The benzos come close. Love ya, I know you will be OK. You are definitely one of the stronger ones. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 14:00:31 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The numbers suck, m' lord Message: Here's the latest braggadoccio (braggadocium?) from Premie Pravda: 'Wheat harvests in the Ukraine have more than tripled this year due to superior Soviet technology and the hard work of the Soviet people. Our fearless leader...' No, the actual report, no less funny, is as follows: 'Global report: the final numbers A bigger audience than expected Over 86,000 people watched Maharaji in 173 locations for his first ever satellite broadcast on 13 December. This was 9,000 more than anticipated as the broadcast began from Pasadena, California. Of this figure nearly 13,000 were aspirants. In North America almost 7,000 people, including the 2,000-strong 'live' Pasadena audience, watched the broadcast. India and Nepal had a combined attendence at 52 locations of 61,000. In Europe the numbers topped 9,000; in Africa just over 3,000 people saw Maharaji at 13 locations. The Pacific audience was just under 3,000, whilst in South America it was just under 3,500.' Think about it. Less than 7k people in all of North America were willing to go, not to a single destination, far for many, costly for all, but to a nearby community for m's INAUGURAL WORLD-WIDE EVENT. In particular, 2k went to see him live. That means less than 5k throughout all the rest of the states, Canada and Mexico. Say 500 to 1k in Mexico. Does that seem off? (I'm only guessing, but that guess seems fiarly safe for me. Certainly no more than 1k, no? And elss than 500? Well, whatever.) Okay, that means less than 4k in the U.S. and Canada. Now, Canada must have mustered a good 1k across the country. What do you Canadian ex's of recent vintage say to that? Is 2k possible? Is 1 a stretch? That leaves what? Possibly as little as 2k for the entire U.S.? Is that even possible? Am I imagining this? And Europe? JM, q'uest-ce que tu pense ici? (Sorry.) Now, adding it up a bit, we find: N. America - 7 Europe - 9 Africa - 3 Pacific - 3 S. America - 3.5 Total = 25.5 25 thousand people worldwide outside of India. In terms of cults that's barely on the map. In terms of religions it's not even that. No wonder it's so hard to get some press attention. But in terms of pocket change for whoever might possibly benefit from the proceeds of this great 'event' (not to mention the sale of the historic video memoires of this momentous occasion), well that's one hell of a lot of money. Depends how you look at it, I guess. A few things I wonder about: 1) What about Satpal's following in India? Do these two Masters, Maharaji and Guru Maharaj Ji, share the same customer list at all? 2) What happened to the other 950,000 people that saw the young Lord promise world piece in Delhi at the 'Peace Bomb' satsang? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 17:07:37 (EST)
From: chr Email: None To: Jim Subject: The numbers suck, m' lord Message: Things seem to have really dwindled for the perfect master.I was looking at the community phone number lists at the ELK site.There are a lot of communities,especially in the U.S, that seem to have disappeared off the map since the heady days of the 70s. I also would guess that quite a number of the satellite audience were non-active--rustled up by telephone calls and merely curious.I went to see M a few years ago after one such call.I kept avoiding premies I knew there because I didnt want to be 'satsanged'.It turned out that they were avoiding me for the same reason -most of them hadnt been involved for years. At this particular program,M did a K review and demonstrated the techniques.I can put all the arguments about baragons to rest-judging by the way M did the sound technique,we're all supposed to use our stomachs as support. chr Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 17:10:29 (EST)
From: Nimrod Email: None To: Jim Subject: The numbers suck, m' lord Message: I say between 1.25k and 1.5 k for all of Canada(attendees at the satellite broadcast) at the most. 5-7 years ago, Montreal alone would have drawn that many.Today, with fewer people attending videos, and decreasing financial support,its been 9 or 10 months now since Montreal has lost its permanent hall. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 17:10:28 (EST)
From: Nimrod Email: None To: Jim Subject: The numbers suck, m' lord Message: I say between 1.25k and 1.5 k for all of Canada(attendees at the satellite broadcast) at the most. 5-7 years ago, Montreal alone would have drawn that many.Today, with fewer people attending videos, and decreasing financial support,its been 9 or 10 months now since Montreal has lost its permanent hall. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 17:41:36 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: The numbers suck, m' lord Message: What I think is amazing is I watched a video from Long Beach, I think of a program in December, 1996, in which BM bragged that there were 8,000 people there from all over the world and that this had been the biggest program. A pan of the hall showed it to be about half empty, but assuming 8,000 is correct it's pretty miserable. Back in the early 80s, and international program in Miami would easily draw 15,000. So, today, despite almost 20 years of continued 'spreading this knowledge,' he can't even draw half as many people, and still he bragged about that as being so great. I called my local contact number and was amazed that they don't even have programs in San Francisco. I used to be community coordinator here and we had our own hall, and could easily draw 100 to nightly satsang in the early 80s. Now, they don't even have programs here anymore, and they didn't even have one of those Satellite feeds in anywhere in the Bay Area. I think your estimate of 7,000 in North America is way too high. As I have said before, I think he's finished in North America at least, and probably everywhere is the West where there isn't a substantial East Indian population. If 266 people received knowledge in North America in 1998, I bet at least three times that number abandoned him during the same period. Geez, I think about 20 or 30 new exes have shown up on the forum in the past year, and that has to be just the tip of the iceberg. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 18:08:06 (EST)
From: Nimrod Email: None To: JW Subject: no way 8k for LB'96 Message: I was there, and I'm saying that the attendance at that event was no more than 6.5k. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 18:34:36 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: JW Subject: Spread This Knowledge Message: Spread it far and wide! Maharaji's gift is already inside of you. (I know I'm sick. HE made me this way.) Having bailed out about 18 months ago, it is no surprise to me that His Thing is dying on the vine in the West. Back in the old days when:
But as I got wiser and older:
How the hell do you expect us to sell you? Especially, when we're wanting a refund on the boatload of rotten vegetables You Sold to Us Come on, man! Do the right thing and call it quits. Liquidate it all and give everybody a cash payoff and then go into self exile on Mauritius or the isle of Elba. There's plenty of creeps in exile who'll be your friends. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 19:03:24 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: barney Subject: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Message: Exile in Albania would be better. He could keep talking about Socrates--know thyself. The moslem front there would not take to kindly to his way of thinking, and they do not like Greek Philosphers either. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 20:55:14 (EST)
From: dv Email: None To: barney Subject: Spread This Knowledge Message: To me, this is a problem. I am no longer young and daring as you so well put it, but my older and wiser self is in a vindictive phase. Do you feel comfortable with letting him just retire, with all our money and fantasies? I still want to see him booted out of the country. If he retires, I want a media event. I hope he doesn't retire for a while. I think we all should go to the next US program and drop ex-premie.org cards all over the place. Or get up in unison during the real quiet moment at a program and SING A LARKIN TUNE! LET'S RAISE HELL! LET'S HAAAVE SUUUM FUUUNNNN!!! I need to rechannel all my fantasies he nurtured into new one. Just don't sic the men in white jackets on me just yet. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 04:06:42 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jim Subject: The numbers suck, m' lord Message: Over 86,000 people watched Maharaji in 173 locations for his first ever satellite broadcast on 13 December I don't believe these figures either, and for 3 reasons: 1/ Technology: EV used old satellites, and you had to have a dish antenna and a special receiver to be able to tap on it. That technology is not that easy to use (you need equipment AND technicians), and France for instance had only 2 places where they got the video feed, Paris and Marseille. I would say that less that 1,000 attended for France alone. Most of the countries very likely had only 1 or 2 places (more for UK and US) where they got the video feed. 2/ M's way to count! Believe it or not, (Gail & other recent exes will confirm this) EV never counts active people attending the events (depressive figures), but entries. Meaning that if you go 8 time a month watch videos, you'll be counted as 8 'persons' watched a video that month. That was a big 'mind blowing' thing when that way of counting was introduced in EV. Gail, do you remember when that happened? Have you been involved in EV's statistics? 3/ The Pravda doesn't say WHEN these people watched the event! What I believe: as not that many places were able to be connected 'live' for technical and time reasons (what time was it in India, Japan, Australia, etc? when the program happened in Pasadena), many premies watched the video 2 time. Like in France: let's say that about 800 people watched the live transmission, then a few dozens who did not attend got the video, and most of the people who'd attended the live event watched it again when they got back in their town/community, and were counted twice! Isn't it beautiful? There are some hints tending to prove attendees have been counted this way: how in hell could that many places in India and Africa be connected live? They don't have the technicians and equipments for this. They've recorded videos of the event, then brought them to those remote places. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 20:06:39 (EST)
From: al Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: The numbers suck, m' lord Message: Sorry but not true. All feeds were live and no video has been released yet. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 22:11:25 (EST)
From: dv Email: None To: J_M Subject: The numbers suck, m' lord Message: Actually, it's pretty easy these days to set up a recieve only earth station. Especially if a high powered satellite is used. also, there are many companies out there that will set up video conferences relatively cheap. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 23:33:10 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: dv Subject: accessible technology Message: Yes, while I'm not a Doctor, I would suspect that setting up a satellite receiving station is not that difficult today. A friend mentioned that in his community the event was held at their regular community center. I would imagine you just roll up a truck with a dish, point the dish, set the frequency and maybe a descrambler code, and bring the cables into the building. Now, if they could just help me program my VCR. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 13:49:33 (EST)
From: Way Email: None To: Everyone Subject: escaping another guru Message: Compare this site's journey entries with the stories at http://www.cyberpass.net/truth/stories.htm Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 15:01:47 (EST)
From: RT Email: ommm To: Way: no Subject: escaping another guru Message: This is a really good website. Out of Site, out of Mind! RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 06:47:31 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Way Subject: escaping another guru Message: Muktananda was the original guru- associated in part with Werner Erhard of est as well as Richard Alpert mentioned here before. Muk left his guruhood to a brother and sister team- The sister took over, supposedly after the brother started having sex with someone, altho he is still around but not as popular. GuryMayi had a few holly wood types, including the miami vice guy. Now there's a spiritual reference: Don Johnson follows me.. I must be perfect. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 12:37:43 (EST)
From: Gail Email: freedom@gtn.net To: Everyone Subject: I want my donations back!! Message: I phone George Legere in Montreal two days ago. I want him to send me all the money EV has siphoned from my credit cards over the years. I have not heard from him yet. THIS IS NOT A CHARITY; MJ PROFITS FROM OUR AVAILS. Therefore, the money was collected under false pretenses. Does anyone else in Canada wish to call him? Apparently, since no charitable works have been done and monies have been collected at the door for programs, we are entitled to our money back. The are code was (514) but I think it has been changed to (450) 969-3803. All you will get is George on a voice message. EV is not identified. HEY PREMIES: IF THIS IS NOT A DIRTY LITTLE CULT, HOW COME THEY ANSWER THE PHONE INCOGNITO? GEORGE DOESN'T EVEN IDENTIFY HIMSELF LET ALONE EV. WHY ISN'T HE PROUD TO SAY WHO HE IS AND WHAT CHARITABLE ORGANIZATION HE REPRESENTS--I KNOW WHY! THIS IS WHAT MAHARAJI WANTS. THIS IS WHAT MAHARAJI WANTS. THIS IS WHAT MAHARAJI WANTS. THIS IS WHAT MAHARAJI WANTS. MJ IS THE THIEF IN THE NIGHT. THE CHEAT AND DECEIT ARE STARING YOU IN THE FACE. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 13:00:56 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Gail Subject: Me too ! Message: I guess I'll do the same, and send a registered letter to Ev here, and to Mr Rawat for the summs I've sent on his account. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 13:07:27 (EST)
From: RT Email: omm To: Jean-Michel nad Gail Subject: gopher it. Message: OOh, this is a good one. It's buried money so you really have to gopher it. I gave cash, check and bought trinkets, and stupidly wrote 'donation' on the checks, so I am out on this one. ...good luck! Maybe the local cyberspace lawyer fellow can write the letter to crack open the Divine safe. Call it Soul Vaulting. RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 13:53:34 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Gail Subject: Go girl! Message: Gail, you are so cool. And smart. And courageous. Really! I was too much of a wimp to try and confront the former GMJ. Don't stop! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 14:09:50 (EST)
From: Mr. Clarity Email: None To: Gail Subject: Go girl! Message: Hey, Gail When I was trying to get into the aspirant program, I was supposed to call a number for directions to the nearest video event. There were strange answering machine messages--never identifying the group or the person. Just, 'Thank you for calling. Our event will take place on Tues December 19. You will be contacted for more information.' By who? The event fairies? Then when I tried to call again, the tape would be blank. I would have to call the premie in charge. He would tell me the time, date or location of the event had changed. This happened over and over. To make a long story short, it smelled fishy (pee u!) When premies were getting in during the seventies, I understand why they did--you know the Lord coming again and all that. What I don't understand is how they stayed after much of Maharaji's foolishness. But I REALLY do not understand why people get in now with crazy secretive stuff like this going on. They must not WANT to see how bizarre it all is. You are one of the smart and brave ones. I wish you luck getting your money back, but even if you don't see a penny, you have your freedom now. VP Thanks to Helen for the new name-I like it;) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 14:29:58 (EST)
From: x Email: None To: Mr. Clarity Subject: Go girl! Message: I agree whole-heartedly about how secretive and sleazy gmj's scam is. It's basically just a boiler room operation. Trying to get your money back from gmj is like trying to get your money back from any snake oil salesman, difficult to impossible. I think you should keep trying though, you never know they may want to just settle with you to avoid a hassle. More likely, they will be afraid to start a precedent which could get them flooded with requests for refunds. Good luck! and like VP said, at least you're free, even if you don't get a penny back. Nothing is as precious as freedom. x Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 16:18:45 (EST)
From: Ego Buster Email: None To: Mr. Clarity Subject: Hate to tell ya bro, but Message: Helen was KIDDING when she called you Mr. Clarity! Jeez, some people will believe anything! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 11:02:18 (EST)
From: Mr. Clarity Email: None To: Ego Buster Subject: Hate to tell ya bro, but Message: Now, who said that? :) It's true, some people will believe anything-snicker Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 13:12:46 (EST)
From: Repentant Email: None To: Mr. Clarity Subject: Ouch Message: Ohhhhh! you really know how to hurt a guy. Gotta rub it in that YOU never fell for his royal chubbiness. Okay, okay, I'll admit I did have a brief lapse of judgement, welll, okay maybe it was more more than brief, yeah, all right so it was an extended lapse in judgment. I mean, how the hell was I supposed to know that I am very susceptible to 15yr olds claiming to be God? Live and learn, ya know? I plead temporary insanity, and I've already served my time. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 17:16:34 (EST)
From: chr Email: None To: Gail Subject: I want my donations back!! Message: Gail,I know of some premies who did get their money back.It was soon after the ashrams closed and they were pretty bitter.One had given her inheritance and she wanted it back .She threatened legal and media action and she got back every cent.Another premie who had bought furniture on his credit card for EV walked into the office with some fiends and simply took it all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 17:31:17 (EST)
From: satan Email: None To: chr Subject: I want my donations back!! Message: '.....Another premie who had bought furniture on his credit card for EV walked into the office with some fiends and simply took it all.' Sounds like a real scenario from hell! HeeHeeHee! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 19:33:35 (EST)
From: Judas Email: None To: satan Subject: I wanna SELL OUT to GMJ Message: Forget the damn donations and let's go for the real Golden Donut here. While I am a relative newcomer to this site, I couldn't expect my share to be that great, but how about coming up with an amount of money that we would accept to make us quietly go away or post nice things. Maybe something based on number of posts made (I'll get my auto-generator going for this.) Number of characters written. Ok, all of our good friends here who are esteemed Officers of the Court can abide by their higher moral ground on this and refuse to take part. Brian and Katie and any of the elves get extra. Maybe I should be eligible for a little extra for putting this idea out there. Come on, Maharaji. Aren't we just a bit more than a thorn in your foot. Wouldn't you like it if we went away? Don't ya think that maybe we're starting to scare people off? It's got to be cutting into your bottomline. Maharaji, have your people contact my people and let's work this out like business people. Ok, buy us off one at a time in secret and this website will dry up with only a few hardcore voices. Then your people can easily overwhelm them with love and gratitude. Ok, let's start with me. You send me a duffel bag full of 100 dollar bills and I'll never say nothing no more. I'll denounce these bad ex-premies pronto and bugout of here. Legal Disclaimer The above is strictly satirical in content and intent. While certain characters mentioned do exist, they are Public Figures. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 11:05:45 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Judas Subject: I wanna SELL OUT to GMJ Message: Bring my friend back from the dead and I'll quit posting here, Maharaji. (Like he is going to read this-HA!) Money won't cut it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 19:53:46 (EST)
From: Anon Email: None To: satan Subject: I want my donations back!! Message: Of course you might get your money back; but you can never get back those golden years of youth that you sacrificed with childish trust, in the ashram...that most monstrous of unjust institutions that spewed me out so inconsiderately, just as the gleam dim'd in my youthful eye, just as my very usefulness as a human being was compromised with the unforgiving atrophy that age brings. Is life really unfair? When will this interminable catharsis end O Lord? With Death? With Blackness? or with glorious, claritone resolution on some earthly dawn. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 20:23:37 (EST)
From: Joy Email: None To: Maharaji's Organization Subject: I want my donations back!! Message: And I want my gold bracelets back, which were family heirlooms. I was COERCED out of them in 1973 for the Millennium festival expenses. I had already given them all my clothes, money, jewelry, record albums. But they just would not stop hounding me until I took off those gold bracelets, which I always wore and never removed, and handed them over. They were pretty thin and probably weren't worth very much in $$, but they had sentimental value. If they're still in a vault somewhere (which I highly doubt), I WANT THEM BACK, PLEASE!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 22:29:30 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth Email: padded.cell@asylum.com To: Lost souls Subject: I want my donations back!! Message: You fools have no devotions and don't understand the meaning of life. Of course I have given all of my money and worldly possessions to Maharaji, including my house, my wife and after my lobotomy I will send Maharaji my brain in a glass jar and I STILL won't have given him enough. However, with modern surgery I will soon be able to send him my limbs and vital organs for his pleasure. Would you cut off your head for Maharaji and place it at his feet with love? Oh they said I was mad slaver, slaver, drool but in the end I showed 'em what I was made of! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 23:02:05 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: Gail Subject: Present for Gail Message: Dear Gail, I think you will find that EV is a government audited non profit/charity that is only allowed to receive and spend money for strictly defined purposes. Money received must be spent on renting venues, purchasing AV equipment and videos, paying for phones, postage etc. No EV money is allowed to go to Maharaji. PT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 02:18:30 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Present for Gail Message: No EV money is allowed to go to Maharaji. Well, first of all, bullshit, and secondly, your point is....? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 06:38:52 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: JW Subject: Evidence please JW.. Message: Dear JW, I'd be interested to hear your version. PT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 07:04:32 (EST)
From: pass the buck Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Evidence please JW.. Message: yurim wiess and others have traveled and held elan vital events that asked for funds directly for home improvement projects and a birthday present. The land around his house, asking for volunteer workers to build the house, and donations for it. You will lie and deny but that is the verifiable truth. Witnesses are here. And others are available Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 09:15:42 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: pass the buck Subject: I've been part of it Message: yurim wiess and others have traveled and held elan vital events that asked for funds directly for home improvement projects and a birthday present. The land around his house, asking for volunteer workers to build the house, and donations for it. Yoram, Raja Ji (Dharampal Rawat), Sampuranand and a few others are still into doing that, day after day. The usual format is: general 'satsang' where all premies are invited, then unofficial meetings where people who've already been giving on a regular basis are invited, that usually happen in a small hall, or in premies home then even smaller meetings with thge premies involved in the various businesses 'projects' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 22:38:48 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: I believe J-M Message: Dear J-M, Thankyou for your support. As you say the fund raising meetings with Yoram are 'UNOFFICIAL meetings to which regular contributors are INVITED'. They are quite separate from the public Elan Vital meetings and they are by invitation only, ie. don't go if you don't want to and above don't do anything you do want to do. PT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 23:25:27 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: This is kind of fun Message: PT, Since you admitted how tongue-in-cheek you are here I can relax a bit and enjoy your cult-flavoured cynicism. By the way, you're wrong AGAIN! (Told you this was fun.) If an officer of a non-profit organization procures personal gain, for himself or anyone, on trips or at meetings expensed by the organization, he's violating tax laws. As an exreme example -- just for illustration -- say a Red Cross employee flew all over the world on the Red Cross's money, ostensibly doing Red Cross business. Say said employee spent even a bit (doesn't have to be a lot) of his time meeting with people to promote his book, My Exciting Life in the Red Cross. Say he declares the trips as regular work FOR his non-profit organization. You know what you got there, bud? Tax fraud! Anyway, don't mean to stop you. Please, carry on. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 03:37:54 (EST)
From: J-M Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: I believe J-M Message: OK, then I have to assume that half of your brain is STILL NOT WORKING. What do we have here: an EV official, paid and invited by EV, coming to have 'inspiration meetings' with premies, and hiding himself to invite some of them to make private donations! What is this called in ANY regular business??? Of course m is so special, you know .... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 22:30:42 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: pass the buck Subject: Real evidence please JW.. Message: Dear Passing, You've missed the point. Elan Vital is a voluntary organisation that relies on volunteer effort and money to hold video events etc. Maharaji is a seperate individual. And people are free to do whatever they like with their time and money. They could even give it to you. PT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 23:26:34 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Ya, but what about guilt? Message: As the years roll, the guilt sets in. I should be doing more, I should be giving more, I should be ... Of course, the most guilty get cornered into giving more. I asked one guy around town if he planned to go to Miami. He replied with, 'MJ and K are just for yuppies. Poor folks like me aren't welcome anymore.' He got hassled big time at some program recently for his fee at the door. Long gone are the days of one for all and all for one. The community spirit is gone. MJ abolished it by telling us not to discuss our experience; if we kept talking to each other, we could have told him the story of the Emperor's Clothes instead of him telling us. It's become a fu--ing rat race through the maze. Big RAW RAT is getting all the cheese. Many premies, such as you, PT, have completely lost their senses and their humanity. As MJ once said, 'You become like the rats you associate with.' How true! JSCA Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 22:58:14 (EST)
From: thats not how the IRS Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: views it and you know it Message: And they are getting that info. And witnesses. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 18:51:48 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Real evidence please JW.. Message: I didn't miss the point at all. EV is a 'voluntary' organization and is the successor to Divine Light Mission. Both EV and DLM funnelled money directly to Maharaji's pockets. That's the point I was making. Oh, BTW, I saw this with my own eyes. What proof do you have that that isn't the case? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 10:52:04 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Evidence please PT Message: PT: Show US evidence of your silly statement. Show me the public results of their audit. Prove that you KNOW they had an audit, by whom, what dates, etc. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 22:49:06 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: Mike Subject: After you Mike... Message: Dear Mike, I'm pleased to see someone is interested in the facts. Why don't you make some enquiries and report back to us. PT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 10:27:07 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: After you Mike... Message: PT: I'll give it a shot, but YOU are the individual that made the 'claim' that EV had been audited, not me. This would seem to indicate that YOU are in possession of some documentation or special knowledge of the subject at hand. If not, then stop asking for documentation when YOU YOURSELF can't provide any. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 03:01:32 (EST)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Present for Gail Message: 'Money received must be spent on renting venues, purchasing AV equipment and videos, paying for phones, postage etc' Of course the 'etc' includes expenses and necesities. Are you for real? prem has been sucking the life blood of people all of his life. PT you're really ugly. If fact if I had a dog with a 'face' like yours I'd shave it arse(Brit version of ass) and walk it backwards. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 07:08:46 (EST)
From: Gail Email: Freedom To: Passing thru Subject: Not in Canada Message: Money received must be spent on renting venues, purchasing AV equipment and videos, paying for phones, postage etc. No EV money is allowed to go to Maharaji. Dear PT: I sent my monthly donation of $125. Then, we, as a little group pitched in toward's buying a new TV. The TV belongs to the person who owns the venue where videos are watched. Plus, people put money in the local donation box for other expenses like phone calls, pitch in for cost of room (owner just accepts what he gets), etc. When an instructor would come to town, I would be fleeced for another $80-150. The last one only cost $90 (Padarthanonds food and travel expenses). Someone drove him here. Then there was the gas expense of getting this person here. When MJ came to Toronto in June, 1997, I was asked to purchase a bunch of stuff from the Business Depot. I was supposed to be given a tax receipt for the expenses--$118.56. I'm still waiting. At that program, people paid $20 per person to attend. They had the services of doctors, nurses, and schmucks like us for free. The only expense was the hall. WHERE IS THE MONEY, HONEY? This crock you're promoting is bull. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 07:15:04 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: PT Subject: How did MJ get so rich? Message: Where did MJ get his money. When he arrived in England, he had to wait at the beach for accommodations. He got the money from loving, trusting, hopeful people like you and me. Have you ever received a year-end financial statement? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 23:13:45 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: Gail Subject: How did PT get so rich? Message: Dear Gail, If someone gives you something for nothing and then you decide to give them a gift, who is to blame? No one. You exercised your free will and did exactly what you wanted to do. And now you're exercising you free will to bitch about the past and how you were a fool. You are responsible, you made the choices, you did what you did. Why can't you accept that simple fact and stop pretending it was someone else's decision. PT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 23:33:56 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Question time, PT Message: Hey pal, Are you familiar with the legal concept of duress? How about false pretense? Misrepresentation, maybe? I like the way you're trying to play the 'voice of worldly reason' here. Honest, I do. I just wish you knew what you were talking about, you know? But don't let me stop you. Looking forward to your next post, I remain, Yours truly, Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 18:58:36 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Simple PT Message: If someone portrayed himself as god incarnate, as Maharaji did, and also demanded over and over, that in order to attain salvation you must DEVOTE everything you have to HIM, but really, he wasn't 'god' at all, but just a man playing god, but you believed him and gave him the gift anyway, isn't M getting the gift through fraud? It's Maharaji's fault. It's fraud. It's accepting and promoting gifts under false pretenses. It's intentional misrepresentation. Pure and simple. Although, there probabaly is some fault to the premie as well, for being so gullible. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 22:59:18 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: Gail Subject: All over the world Gail.. Message: Dear Gail, So you contributed to the hall, the TV, phone calls, visiting speakers, etc. Sounds like a volunteer organisation to me. And now you don't want to contribute, fine, don't. But what you gave, you gave as a consenting adult and now that you've changed your mind and want to turn back the clock. If only life was that easy. I wouldn't have bought that ridiculous pin stripe suit in '94. PT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 23:38:21 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Hate to be a bore Message: and I don't really want to stop the show or anything but, again, PT, haven't you ever heard of false pretences, misrepresentation or duress? How about simple fraud? Tyhese things 'vitiate' consent, to throw a little jargon around. Your 'end of the story' is a little premature. Anyway, thanks again. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 23:45:48 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: Where have all the monthly Message: donations in Canada gone. London, for example, is down to about 6 premies. Why isn't the cash that's sent to Montreal monthly used for these things. Why do people keep coming back with their hands out for more. How much has the cult grown in your neighbourhood? Soon, and very soon indeed, you will be at the video events alone. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 08:31:51 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: PT's like J. Hammond-Smyth Message: Did you guys read PT's post to me 'Thanks, Jim' just below here? He admits he's not serious about this (as if we needed that confirmation). He's only playing us a bit, trying to get a rise out of us all. It's a despicable game but whatever. It's the game he's playing. I guess the best way to enjoy him is to accept him as an unintentional JHS. You know he doesn't mean it but has nothnig to offer but confused faceitousness. Yes, PT, tell me more about how EV works. Please. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 10:49:14 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: And the tooth fairy Message: really exists. PT, you live in lala land. I would like to see the results of an AMTEXT and EV audit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 11:16:46 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: What EV is really about Message: And I say that, under the pretense of 'spreading Mr Rawat's message' (like old DLM has always been), EV really is a way to strongly influence m's followers to dedicate their work and their wealth to their beloved teacher. Mr Yoram Weisz, Mr Dharampal Rawat and a few other instructors get paid by EV Inc. to tour worldwide and sollicit m's followers, during private meetings, to regularly 'donate' as much as they can on Mr Rawat's private bank account, under the pretense that Mr Rawat will uses these gifts for his 'work'. These guys also keep having meetings with the premies working in private companies whose benefits are 'given' to Mr Rawat. All this has nothing to do with EV's charity/religious statuts. None of these 'gifts' are used for propagation. Rawat keeps buying cars, residences, lands, yachts for his private use, and living in super-luxury hotels. None of these belongings are used for propagation. Nothing of his super-luxury lifestyle has ever been necessary for his 'work'. I've never heard of any meeting being held on his yachts or in any of his private residences. The only meetings he ever had there are with his lieutenants and numerous mistresses! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 23:19:20 (EST)
From: Passing thru Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: What J-M is really about Message: Dear J-M, Thankyou for once again clarifying the issue that the meetings with Yoram were 'private' and have 'nothing to do with EV's charity/religious statement'. PT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 00:02:23 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: PT: YOU ARE CRAZY! Message: Why the need for secret meetings where you are asked to increase your monthly credit card donations? Why doesn't MJ just ask people for it DIRECTLY. He could dance, have toe-nail kissing, and ask for money. He's the one who benefits. Furthermore, PT, why are you so fascinated with this site? Probably it's the first honest discussions you've seen (heard) since joining this miserable cult. It will be a sorry day for you and everyone concerned if you ever do see the light. I can hear the crash of your splintering glass now. The longer you wait to take control of your life, the more it will hurt. By the way, PT, I gave to Goomer because I had no choice. I hating giving, but who was I to refuse MY LORD, THE SUPERIOR POWER IN PERSON. The one who created me. The one who could destroy me. The one who gave me my every breath. IT'S CALLED PSYCHOLOGICAL WARFARE. FUCK OFF, PT. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 03:34:56 (EST)
From: x Email: None To: Gail Subject: PT: YOU ARE CRAZY! Message: PT's initials are better matched to the words premie terrorist or maybe even just plain old, piece o' trash, than passing thru. Every post PT makes is just one more example of how deluded and removed from humanity one can become from following Mr Toads Wild Ride for too long. I don't know if it's genetics or a result of growing up in a bad environment, but PT is really disassociated and sociopathic as far as I can tell. Just like his mentor. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 14:31:56 (EST)
From: op Email: None To: PT Subject: PT: YOU ARE CRAZY! Message: Why the need for secret meetings where you are asked to increase your monthly credit card donations? Why doesn't MJ just ask people for it DIRECTLY. Yes, PT, you ARE crazy. Foot-in-the-mouth department crazy. I strongly suggest you not post things that you don't know about first-hand. There are no secret meetings where people are asked to increase their donations. There ARE above-board, open meetings where EVs finances are discussed, hard-fact numbers are presented (how much income, how much expenditure). These data are presented on slides, visible to the entire audience. I've never seen anyone ask that a slide be kept up for a longer period so they can review it, or request a written copy of the data. So I guess you could say that people tend to take the figures at face value. But they ARE there. Those meetings are presented ahead of time as < Participation Meetings >, or some similar nomenclature. Those who want to attend, go knowing what to expect. A new video or two, the slide presentation about finances, and a pitch for more donations. I know a lot of people, BTW, who hate these presentations and never go. Among these are some people who are big donors - they just don't like public pitches, or don't like the presenters. On the other hand, there ARE meetings - not secret, but private - of people who have expressed interest in making larger donations, or have recently given larger donations. Sometimes these are for a special project (e.g., building a new Knowledge Center), sometimes to keep activities in a local community afloat (e.g., most of the premies don't donate regularly, but there is an instructor visit around the corner and these people will contribute toward renting a hall and for the instructor's transportation). These are not the standard monthly credit card donations. They are specifically for and with people who have more financial resources and have volunteered to use them. There are occasionally special fund-raising activities - a dinner, a concert by local musicians. These are non-official, and are set up by someone in the community who takes complete responsibility and then donates the money raised. Gail, it sounds like you have been in a community that has a very warped sense of service. NO ONE should ever be asked to donate what is not freely given. No matter who you're giving it to. The point of service is to experience JOY in what you're doing, not fear, not subservience. And NO ONE should ever neglect family or personal financial needs in order to go to an event or make a donation. I know that there was an < empty your pockets > mentality in the past (I was one of those who pushed it). But we're talking about WAY back in the past. Like middle ages. And NO ONE is forced to pay an < entrance fee > for an event. If someone in seating hassles someone for money, the supervisor should be informed. Of course, there are some people who have plenty of money - who will refuse to contribute $15 at the event and then go out to a $60 dinner afterward. The $15 is NOT to cover the cost of the event. Those $15 donations barely scratch the surface, and are mostly to cover computer and seating processing costs for the event. The events are paid for with other donations - the monthly ones to the national Elan Vital organization or the extra donations that go into the boxes at the events. Again, and for the record: Maharaji does NOT receive any financial remuneration for attending any event. Nor for doing Knowledge Sessions. Extra donations in the USA and Europe help finance events in other countries, where the costs can easily be much higher than in the West because the people who attend the event all need translation equipment, because they are housed and fed, etc. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 14:51:46 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: op Subject: A question for you then... Message: OP: Let's assume, for the moment, that M receives NO money from EV, AMTEXT or anything other that pure 'gratitude' from his devotees. Why isn't he doing what YOU are expected/encouraged to do (now or back in the long past)? If propagating K is THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT THING to him, then WHY does he spend MUCH (if not ALL) of his money on a ludicrous lifestyle? I would think he would put most of it 'back' into the 'purpose of life' vice wining and dining big contributors, buying his son a 4x4 or whatever. Don't you see the MAJOR disconnect here? He is ALL WORDS and NO ACTION! When was the last time the HE, PERSONALLY, financed an event? When was the last time that he made up for a financial shortfall at any event? Does the word NEVER come to your mind? Damn, if K IS/WAS the MOST important thing (and many of us thought that it was, so we were happy to give EVERY DIME WE MADE) then you would think that M would give every gift of 'gratitude' back to propagate even MORE, right? BUT NO, it goes to fueling his insatiable desire for material wealth. His home is ALL I need to convince me of his TRUE desire! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 15:32:38 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: op Subject: hard-fact numbers - funny $$$ Message: hard-fact numbers are presented (how much income, how much expenditure). These data are presented on slides, visible to the entire audience. I've never seen anyone ask that a slide be kept up for a longer period so they can review it, or request a written copy of the data OP, I've been to those hard-fact presentations. Hard-fact is hardly the word for them. The numbers and presentation is very, very soft as in a lot of information is omitted and not presented. For example, are the numbers for EV worldwide or just EV USA or EV Canada? These numbers always show great shortages of revenue vs. expenses. People in the audience are basically too intimidated by peer pressure to ask hard questions. I know that I, knowing how to read company annual reports and balance sheets, had lots of questions, but I was too intimidated to ask. Something is going on in L.A.. Just what we really don't know because they don't want us to know. Finally, the only growth visible in regards to Maharaji is his personal wealth. Explain that, please. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 20:40:14 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: op Subject: PT: YOU ARE CRAZY! Message: Dear OP: This is a small centre (even smaller now). You are right. A lot of people don't give. I have a co-dependent personality. When I am asked to pitch in I do. I can't say no. It always seemed that we were asked for a lot. What you say as far as participation meetings is correct. I have never gotten a straight answer as far as the cash goes? It really is true that a premie was hassled for his fee. I know that it was difficult to get in for the Anniversary program. This same premie booked a seat and did not go. My daughter and her boyfriend came with me. I paid for Chandi and for myself. I tried to use this premie's seat for Nick. They gave me such a song and dance that I ended up paying for the kid. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 04:18:51 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: op Subject: op: YOU LIAR Message: and you know it! I've been involved and part of enough of those private meetings to say what I said. When you say that European countries send money to Africa etc: TRUE, but not EV, it's done privatly by groups of premies, and the purchased equipment DO NOT belong to EV either! Guess to whom it belongs! I've been part of those meetings to! And I'm ready to testify to these facts. Where the meetings were held, who was attending the meetings, etc. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Jan 08, 1999 at 04:47:03 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: None To: op Subject: What a lovely lovely mission Message: Great! So now I know that everything's lovely and above board, I'll get back into becoming a premie. Er, I think not! I had a nightmare which lasted for over 15 years. Lonely, going mad, often wishing I had never encountered Maharaji or premies, sometimes wishing I was dead. Why do people bother pushing this cult now. All the people who've left will never get into it again. We don't want to step back into the nightmare. ANd it's now too boring and impersonal for any newcomers to find any interest in it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jan 07, 1999 at 03:34:33 (EST)
From: J-M Email: None To: Passing thru Subject: What J-M is really about Message: Looks like half of your brain is still NOT WORKING! I'm sorry for you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |