Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 34

From: Dec 30, 1998

To: Jan 12, 1999

Page: 4 Of: 5



barney -:- ELK - What People Want to Read -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 03:56:49 (EST)
__Jerry -:- ELK - What People Want to Read -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 10:05:36 (EST)
____Robyn -:- ELK - What People Want to Read -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:17:33 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- High Tech Solutions -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 10:46:35 (EST)
__Sir David -:- ELK - What they're best at -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 12:24:35 (EST)
____Gail -:- Thanks for the laugh, guys! -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 15:16:43 (EST)
______Nimrod -:- Thanks for the laugh, guys! -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:35:57 (EST)
________Gail -:- I know who you are, Nimmy! -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 21:31:41 (EST)
__________Gail -:- PS Nimmy! -:- Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 00:20:24 (EST)
____________Nimrod -:- Now that you know who I am... -:- Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 02:23:42 (EST)
______________Gail -:- Now that you know who I am... -:- Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 03:36:02 (EST)
________________Nimrod -:- M should definitely call you! -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 02:42:22 (EST)
______________Robyn -:- Now that you know who I am... -:- Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 06:32:53 (EST)

syd -:- What is amtext... -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 03:20:01 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- What is amtext... -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 10:55:03 (EST)
__Nimrod -:- What is amtext... -:- Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 00:10:19 (EST)
____syd -:- What is amtext... -:- Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 02:00:30 (EST)
______Nimrod -:- Thanks... -:- Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 02:30:55 (EST)
____AJW -:- Queen -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 05:42:56 (EST)
______Nimrod -:- Queen -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 17:38:51 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- Where M's wealth comes from -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 10:25:58 (EST)
______x -:- Where M's wealth comes from -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 11:31:41 (EST)
________Gail -:- Right on X! Dear Nimrod: -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 11:58:35 (EST)
__________Gail -:- a) MLM businesses of MJ, etc. -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 12:21:50 (EST)
____________JW -:- a) MLM businesses of MJ, etc. -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 13:15:29 (EST)
______________JW -:- Also -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 13:23:48 (EST)
________________dv -:- The wonderful IRS. -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 13:43:40 (EST)
__________________JW -:- The wonderful IRS. -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 17:30:57 (EST)
________________Nimrod -:- Also -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 18:16:29 (EST)
__________Nimrod -:- Right on X! Dear Nimrod: -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 18:00:39 (EST)
____________Gail -:- Phone Cards -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 18:54:57 (EST)

syd -:- Palace of Peace -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 03:17:43 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Palace of Peace -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 03:27:53 (EST)
____syd -:- Palace of Peace -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 04:35:05 (EST)
______nigel -:- Palace of Peace -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 04:41:11 (EST)
________syd -:- Palace of Peace -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 04:57:09 (EST)
______Katie -:- site, forum, and archives -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 11:41:34 (EST)
________syd -:- site, forum, and archives -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 15:31:02 (EST)
__________Katie -:- site, forum, and archives -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 17:24:45 (EST)
______barney -:- server/download speed -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 14:52:21 (EST)
________syd -:- server/download speed -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 15:39:20 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Palace of Peace -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:01:34 (EST)
________syd -:- sorting the archives -:- Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 02:07:53 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- sorting the archives -:- Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 06:42:29 (EST)
__nigel -:- (off-topic) -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 04:23:49 (EST)
__Sir David -:- Missing old friends -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 12:04:19 (EST)
____syd -:- Missing old friends -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 15:24:20 (EST)

Brian -:- Anne's Journey -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 23:27:30 (EST)
__Helen -:- Anne's Journey -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 01:02:01 (EST)
____VP -:- Anne's Journey -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 01:05:54 (EST)
______Anne -:- Anne's Journey -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 01:46:09 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Anne's Journey -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 03:22:07 (EST)
__________Helen -:- To Robyn -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 16:50:36 (EST)
____________Robyn -:- To Robyn -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:06:40 (EST)
______________Helen -:- To Robyn -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 21:35:07 (EST)
________________Robyn -:- To Robyn -:- Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 06:36:34 (EST)
________Brian -:- Anne's Journey - Revised -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 09:18:58 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Don't mean to be picky - Bri -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 14:41:09 (EST)
____________Brian -:- Don't mean to be picky - Bri -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:27:49 (EST)
____________Anne -:- Don't mean to be picky - Bri -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 17:03:21 (EST)
________syd -:- Anne's Journey -:- Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 02:16:25 (EST)
____seymour -:- Anne's Journey -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 15:56:05 (EST)
______AJW -:- Anne's Journey -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 09:05:00 (EST)
____Anne -:- Anne's Journey -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 16:57:30 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Anne's Journey - Void -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 12:25:22 (EST)
____Helen -:- Your hometown teacher -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 16:44:00 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- Your hometown teacher -:- Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 02:25:43 (EST)
________Helen -:- Your hometown teacher -:- Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 12:54:41 (EST)

Gail -:- Since MJ's not the Lord, why -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 19:36:01 (EST)
__bill -:- Since MJ's not the Lord, why -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 22:07:13 (EST)
__VP -:- Myth+Tradition=Comfort -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 23:33:52 (EST)
____Joy -:- Myth+Tradition=Comfort -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 00:14:44 (EST)
__Jean-Michel -:- Since MJ's not the Lord, why -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 03:26:13 (EST)
____bill -:- if only -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 17:35:22 (EST)
______Sir David -:- if only -:- Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 12:17:30 (EST)
________Katie -:- usenet posts -:- Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 13:38:46 (EST)
__________Sir David -:- usenet posts -:- Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 22:25:20 (EST)
____________Katie -:- usenet posts -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 00:49:34 (EST)
______________Sir David -:- usenet posts -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 04:41:02 (EST)
________________barney -:- www.trancenet.org -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 15:06:17 (EST)
__________________Runamok -:- newsgroups -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 01:34:31 (EST)
________syd -:- if only -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 11:05:10 (EST)
__________Sir David -:- if only -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 12:21:27 (EST)
____________Jean-Michel -:- Glad to know it! -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 13:04:54 (EST)
______________dv -:- Locate.com:Good search page nt -:- Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 13:46:31 (EST)
____________syd -:- if only -:- Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 06:58:38 (EST)

shp -:- of Zen sticks, etc. -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 23:20:03 (EST)
__Jim -:- WHACK!! -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 23:46:48 (EST)
____shp -:- GO WHACK YOURSELF (off)!!! -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 23:54:43 (EST)
______Jim -:- Sexual assault! -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 00:14:09 (EST)
________shp -:- Was it good for you? -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 00:21:16 (EST)
__________shp -:- Was it good for you? -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 00:23:44 (EST)
____________Helen -:- Was it good for you: A joke -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 10:07:17 (EST)
______________Selene -:- Was it good for you: A joke -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 19:14:24 (EST)
________________Helen -:- Was it good for you: A joke -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 21:40:23 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Was it good for you? -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 16:12:46 (EST)
______________shp -:- Was it good for you..reply -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 12:39:13 (EST)
________________Jim -:- shp, op, CD & all premies -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 14:57:32 (EST)
__________________Jim -:- correction -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 15:04:48 (EST)
__________________shp -:- shp interrogatories -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 18:36:30 (EST)
____________________Helen -:- shp interrogatories -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 22:12:30 (EST)
____________________Jim -:- Thanks so far, let's keep goin -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 23:27:23 (EST)
____________Selene -:- Was it good for you? -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 19:11:07 (EST)
______Selene -:- GO WHACK YOURSELF (off)!!! -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 19:08:16 (EST)
__Saul -:- of Zen sticks, etc. -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 16:39:22 (EST)
____shp -:- of Zen sticks, etc. -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 12:52:47 (EST)
______Saul -:- of Zen sticks, etc. -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:02:14 (EST)
________Saul -:- of Zen sticks, etc. -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:04:48 (EST)
__________shp -:- of Zen sticks, etc. -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:44:22 (EST)
____________Saul -:- of Zen sticks, etc. -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 20:59:09 (EST)
________shp -:- of Zen sticks, etc. -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:40:31 (EST)
__________Saul -:- of Zen sticks, etc. -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 20:53:19 (EST)
____________shp -:- zen-stick welts -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 01:11:16 (EST)
______________Saul -:- zen-stick welts -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 03:30:32 (EST)
________________shp -:- zen-stick splinters -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 12:45:38 (EST)
____Gail -:- Check out the TM site! -:- Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 12:08:11 (EST)
______Alice -:- Does anybody know T. Fortkamp? -:- Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 21:07:49 (EST)

Mickey the Pharisee -:- Happy New Year -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 19:56:16 (EST)
__david m -:- Happy New Year -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 20:32:54 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Happy New Year -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 07:53:10 (EST)
__shp -:- Happy New Year -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 22:46:10 (EST)
__Sir David -:- Happy New Year -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 03:39:53 (EST)
____Helen -:- Happy New Year -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 09:59:08 (EST)
______VP -:- Happy New Year -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 15:37:29 (EST)
__Selene -:- Happy New Year -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 19:32:06 (EST)
____Selene -:- Happy New Year -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 19:38:48 (EST)

JW -:- Help -- AFF -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 16:51:45 (EST)
__dv -:- Help -- AFF -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 17:31:35 (EST)
____Selene -:- Help -- AFF -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 19:27:28 (EST)

JW -:- Hare Krishnas -- Like Premies? -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 16:43:50 (EST)
__barney -:- Hare Krishnas -- Like Premies? -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 17:01:30 (EST)
____nigel -:- Did you ever hear... -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 22:29:11 (EST)
______ham -:- Notting Hill Gate -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 08:40:04 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Hare Krishnas -- Like Premies? -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 03:40:03 (EST)
__nigel -:- Hare Krishnas? I love 'em -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 21:10:33 (EST)
____nigel -:- But don't forget... -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 21:14:22 (EST)
______Robyn -:- But don't forget... -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 03:48:28 (EST)
______Mike -:- But don't forget... -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 15:28:20 (EST)
____Jim -:- Monkey on a Stick -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 22:18:02 (EST)
______bill --The bus came by -:- And I got on -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 02:55:16 (EST)

barney -:- Voted Best Site in 1998! -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 16:08:44 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Voted Best Site in 1998! -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 08:13:26 (EST)
____Gail -:- Voted Best Site in 1998! -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 12:20:03 (EST)

Jim -:- Is this guy for real? -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 12:58:09 (EST)
__Nimrod -:- Is this guy for real? -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 17:10:28 (EST)
____Jim -:- I tried -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 17:25:03 (EST)
______Mickey the Pharisee -:- I tried -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 18:58:26 (EST)
______Nimrod -:- Oops!!! -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 19:02:34 (EST)

nofool -:- wasted time -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 12:02:24 (EST)
__Selene -:- wasted time -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 13:13:17 (EST)
____barney -:- keep off the grass -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 14:13:02 (EST)
______Sir David -:- keep off the grass -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 03:57:36 (EST)
__Jerry -:- wasted time -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 14:25:49 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Huh? -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 11:09:13 (EST)
____Mike -:- Huh? -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 10:39:58 (EST)


Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 03:56:49 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: ELK - What People Want to Read
Message:
Visitors to the site have been increasing since the introduction of 'Electronic Times'. For the last week, page hits have been averaging over 7,500 a day.

It is pretty clear what people want to read...


It is pretty clear to me that we've lost the battle.

Well, I'd better try to make the best of this, shouldn't I?

Therefore, I'm going ahead with buying that woodworking equipment and building a website for my:

Super Deluxe
Recalcitrant Premie
Red Hot Viagra Sex and More Sex
So Beautiful Experience Inside Gratitude
100% Recycled Natural Graphite Titanium
Baragons
Where Your Anonymity is Virtually Guaranteed for an Extra $20



The above statistics come from their Around the Planet section. For the month of December they've got all these Global Reports from many of the cities and countries that hosted the historical Transmissions from Outer Space Global Satellite Gratitude Invoking Snooze-O-Rama. Attendance was published for many of the cities. Because the ELK servers are too slow and I'm too lazy to visit all the cities in North America to add them up, but there were:

Chicago 163 people from 9 states.
Atlanta 222
Seattle 121
San Antonio 87

Note: Toronto was not listed for security reasons (something having to do with somebody named Gail)

No matter which way I slice it or dice it, my math keeps telling me that those numbers add up to 666

Finally, I have a real criticism that I expect PT will challenge and that is that the servers for ELK-ILK and www.maharaji.org are slower than shit. Must be running out of somebody's house on a modem. Also, their understanding of HTML and flow is exceptionally amateurish.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 10:05:36 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: ELK - What People Want to Read
Message:
Visitors to the site have been increasing since the introduction of 'Electronic Times'. For the last week, page hits have been averaging over 7,500 a day.

I wouldn't worry about this too much, Barney. About 7,000 of those hits are from Jim.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:17:33 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jerry
Subject: ELK - What People Want to Read
Message:
Dear Jerry,
God that was funny and probably true!!! :)
Happy New Year!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 10:46:35 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: High Tech Solutions
Message:
Barney:

Thanks for the laugh[s]. I always wanted a decent baragon. The best were made by SRF (Yogananda), which folded up like a golf seat. None had an adjustable length leg, though. It would also be nice to have one with a nice soft chin rest, for those impromptu naps that occur when watching the cosmic paint drying is not as exciting as it's supposed up to be.

-Scott
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 12:24:35 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: the usual one
To: barney
Subject: ELK - What they're best at
Message:
Yes they may be a bit amateurish re the HTML but where their talents really lie are in ass-troll-ogy. Here in the UK there's adverts on all our TV channels for Jonathan Cainer's new astrology book where you can get your horror-scope for 1999 for a few mere pounds and it's worth 40 pounds! According to the advert's spiel.

There's a nice picture of Jonathan on the book, looking all wise and going bald. Hail Jonathan, the oracle! Your superior wisdom and knowledge is reaching the masses. (Also available is your daily horoscope on the premium rate phone number) Yes, Jonathan's enjoying life.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 15:16:43 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Thanks for the laugh, guys!
Message:
Sir David:

I have a half-done fortune telling game. I've been thinking about finishing it, and flogging it, even though the entire thing is no more than a parlour game. Do you think this might be a bad idea?
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:35:57 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Thanks for the laugh, guys!
Message:
Hi Gail!
Do it! Go for it!! What is there to lose?
I remember you telling me about your idea when I was in lovely, little London on a buying trip.I thought it was a great idea then and I still think so.
Are you still thinking of using the same name for your board game? (Don't worry, I won't let the cat out of the bag...I'll leave that to you, but I thought the name was just super.)
When you're ready, please let me know if there's anything I can do to help in terms of the marketing.I'd be glad to help.
By the way, when I was in London, everyone just raved about your fortune telling abilities. I was going to ask you for a reading myself, but I was afraid that I was in for some bad news, and I was right.At that time I was experiencing what would prove to be the beginning of the end of my Amtext experience, and it wasn't very pretty.
Good luck with the project, Gail, and a Happy New Year to you!!!
May 1999 be the year that the whole planet discovers what freedom is all about, and may Gail make her fortune.You deserve it!!!
Love to you always,
Nimmy
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 21:31:41 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: freedom@gtn.net
To: Nimrod
Subject: I know who you are, Nimmy!
Message:
If the cat should ever get out of the bag, or you are sick of having to maintain the premie mentality, feel free to stay with Chandi and I.

I've been avoiding Tarot Cards, etc., but what the hell!
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Date: Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 00:20:24 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Nimrod
Subject: PS Nimmy!
Message:
I bet Anniebanannie is shocked! I bet she doesn't invite you to her trailer in Malibu. Is she still talking to you? I guess that's why you didn't bother going to the LA party with MJ in 1997 (I heard you hadn't gone). Have you still got your gold trinket from 1996?
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Date: Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 02:23:42 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Now that you know who I am...
Message:
Hi again Gail!
As far as AJ goes, the folks at Amtext knew that we were friendly,and I have every reason to believe that once she got to the res, Chuck Nathan enlisted her to help bring me back to the fold.I'm pretty sure that it was at Anne's urging that Chris tried to phone me last August, coincidentally, just two weeks before Rataji came to Montreal for an all day event here...the community here is in pretty bad shape and Montreal has always been an important centre for M...I'm also quite sure that Rataji was aware of my situation,and while he was here, he would have been more than glad to 'help ' me with my 'problem',since my problem was a problem for Amtext, and Amtext, of course, is very important to M. I never returned Chris' call. Didn't go to see Rataji either.The problem I felt was between myself and the people at the Amtext office,and all they had to do was stop applying non business considerations to the situation,such as, whether or not I was being a'good premie', and the problem would be over.I didn't want M involved in what I felt was my personal life,and that's really why I didn't go to that second get together at the residence, especially since I was told that I would be part of a smaller group going to the res at 3pm, while the party was to officially begin for everyone else at 4pm. Nobody said it outright, but I'm pretty sure that M wanted to 'help' me personally.By that time however, I felt that I had been sufficiently headf**ked by his premies, and that I didn't need it from M himself, up front and personal.Although now I regret it. I just wish I had the courage of a Daniel,to go into the lion's den...to tell M and all those Amtext creeps to go f**k themselves.Then again, maybe that just would have been stupidity. Who knows if I would have gotten out alive.
You know Gail, the really interesting thing is this.All the premies to whom I fully related what was happening ,were initially totally sympathetic. Even Anne called the Amtext people 'a bunch of users and takers'. Madge called them ' a bunch of creeps'.It was the same with other premies. But all it took was for the Amtext people to get to Anne, and then Georges Legere and before I knew it, all these people who at the beginning of this mess were so sympathetic, now didn't even want to talk to me or if they did it was in an almost patronizing kind of a way.The fix was on...and I had become a 'problem' premie, the premie who had turned down an invitation to meet with M at the res.Shame, shame, shame.In that way the Amtext f**kbrains were successfull in having me totally isolated in the premie world,at least untill I would come around to their way of thinking.Never happened.
The really good news though, is that because of this site and everyone who participates in it...I AM NOT ISOLATED ANYMORE..AND IT FEELS GREAT!!
Yep, I still have that little triket trophy M gave me in 96, although I'm thinking of putting it in an hermetically sealed bag.
It might be useful to preserve the goomsters dna imprint, if ever there is an IRS investigation into Amtext.
Gail, I'm really glad that you've figured out who I am...now if I could only do the same thing...
I hope I can take you up on your invite to visit, and thank you for that.I'd sooner accept your invitation than I would M's.
You're definitely more real, more natural, more beautifull than he will ever be.For that matter I think we all are.
You take care.
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Date: Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 03:36:02 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Nimrod
Subject: Now that you know who I am...
Message:
Well, Nimmy: How does it feel to be so important that the Lord himself would elect to have a fireside chat with you. As the circle gets smaller and smaller, maybe I'll get a call from the rez. Can't you just hear it. 'Geez, Gail. There are only 10 premies left in Canada. Won't you be number 11. BTW, we heard that you have a game to market. Need some help? MJ will be glad to meet with you. Why don't you bring your prototype?'
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 02:42:22 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: M should definitely call you!
Message:
It would be a terrific learning experience for him to have a little tete a tete with lovely, little London's, Most Precious Big Mac.He'd be a fool not to call you Gail, but then again, don't put it past him.
If one on the other hand the goomer does call, and should you accept his invite...well, I think you know what's coming... first, please give Anniebanannie a big hug and LOTS OF LUV from Nimmy.Secondly,please tell Daya I think she's really turning out to be a MEGABABE, simply gorgeous and JUST TO DAYA FOR, even though these days I'd rather listen Savage Garden than her. Oh,and Gail, as far as the food goes at the res, be sure not to miss out on those delicious cucumber sandwiches if they have them.Now I hope I'm not being overly demanding here but Gail,please give the goomster LOTS OF LUV from Nimmy,just like for Anniebanannie, and then please tell him for me, as Trivenanand used to say, 'All's well that ends well, ' and it's definitely a VERY WELL ending, to have ended up out of his f**kbrain cult.Thanks Gail!
And pray tell dear Gail, what do you want to say to M, face to face? I'm curious.
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Date: Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 06:32:53 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Nimrod
Subject: Now that you know who I am...
Message:
Dear Nimrod and Gail,
I love it now 2 sets of people have found friends here! I felt like I was eaves dropping but what you have to say is interesting and it is good to see you found each other. I am so glad that finding this site has meant so much to you and that you don't feel isolated anymore. I stayed out of the thick cult stuff somehow, thank god but this is one of the real reasons this is here and it is great to see it working so often. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 03:20:01 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: What is amtext...
Message:
... and can someone tell me when it was being discussed so that I can find the archive(s)?

TIA
syd
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 10:55:03 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: What is amtext...
Message:
Syd:

Others can better inform, but my recollection is that Amtext is a used textbook buying company based on an idea M stole from a premie. It is a profit making enterprise that siphons quite a piece of change to the guru, upon with he pays no taxes. I think it was discussed about a month ago.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 00:10:19 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: What is amtext...
Message:
Hi Syd! and let me join in with everyone else in welcoming you to this site!!
I'm rather new here myself having just discovered this site around 5 weeks ago. There was a discussion going on at that time about premie businesses, and that's when I decided to jump in with what I knew about Amtext,having been a premie bookbuyer who had done my business with that company.I'm still a bookbuyer,no longer a premie,and I do my business these days with a competitor company to Amtext.
In a nutshell, Scott gave you a terrific little definition of what Amtext is all about.Couldn't have said it better myself.
More precisely, for more info you can find it in the 'Previous Archives' #30(Nov. 23,98-Dec.5,98) and #31(Dec.2,98-Dec.14,98)
The first postings on this subject began around Nov 30 and were entitled 'Hello Nimrod'(like yourself and everyone else with the exception of premie lurkers, I was given a really warm reception here) and there was a subsequent thread 'Amtext Revisited'.
I feel that there is more to say on this subject that has been covered up untill now, but like yourself alot of my time is spent on earning my daily bread.Also,unlike yourself, my 'escape' as you put it,was a rather brutal mindfuck of a process which went on for at least two years before I felt that I had no choice but to 'blow'.It's still difficult for me to speak about all the personal aspects of this situation,and so I guess I'm taking my time about it, allowing things to come together for me in time.This site has been a tremendous help for me.
I look forward to future discussions on this subject.There is defintely more to say.In the meantime, if you haven't already found it, I hope the info above will help you in narrowing down your search through the archives.
For now, take care!
PS:I'm Canadian Syd...please give my love to the Queen.Thanks.
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Date: Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 02:00:30 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Nimrod
Subject: What is amtext...
Message:
Nimrod,

Thanks for the precise info on archives - will check it out.

Good luck with coming to terms with what happened. It was years before I could talk to anyone about it, in fact it is really only now that I'm beginning to come to terms with it. Like a disastrous marriage or a bereavement, there are no short cuts, only the passage of time to allow intense memories to lose their edge and quite reflection to bring some perspective.

Which is all obvious really and of absolutely no help at all - but you do have my feelings of support if that's any help.

Syd
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Date: Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 02:30:55 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Thanks...
Message:
for sharing that with me.And it DOES help.
Syd, when you find the Amtext stuff in the archives and you have questions you would like to ask, please feel free to post me. I'd be glad to answer.
Take care.
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Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 05:42:56 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Nimrod
Subject: Queen
Message:
Nimrod,

Sorry to be the one to break the news, but Queen disbanded after Freddie Mercury died.

AJW
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Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 17:38:51 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Queen
Message:
I don't understand. What are Charles and the boys going to do, if they don't have a band to play in?
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Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 10:25:58 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Nimrod
Subject: Where M's wealth comes from
Message:
.... is the real issue.

This money stuff is what's most carefully kept secret in EV, and I assume a lot of people need to know this.
I think that a lot of the premies' paranoia comes from this, as they don't know how the BM got so rich (whilst he is obviously - and they don't believe so much in the myth of the rich 'pam' supporting him), they assume it's illegal, and thus have to deny and hide everything they know.
(I've also heard some fairy tales, like amtext was supposedly linked to the maffia, because Barnes & Nobles would be(!), etc - and same maffia fairy tales from the guy who is selling amtext books in Russia, working with the Russian maffia, etc, did you hear that kind of stuff?)
+ the fact that the premies themselves give so much that they're usually in difficult situations, they're ashamed admitting this, when it's obvious m's richness is not dedicated to propagation, etc.
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Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 11:31:41 (EST)
From: x
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Where M's wealth comes from
Message:
I agree JM, money is a major issue, that needs to be rationalized well, for the brainwashing to take proper hold. I've heard that new premies and aspirants are told that gmj is an 'inventor' and is rich because he's some kind of scientific genius who invents little gizmos and designs things. Personally I set the odds for gmj's having designed or invented anything above a roach clip at about 10,000 billion to 1.
Would'nt be nice if he used some of his moola to help someone for real, for once, instead of burning it all up in his greedy little fuel tank, flying around 'tirelessly' to spread the word(ie. raise more funds).
It really bugs me when premies moan about how hard it is for gmj travelling the world nonstop to help the unenlightened. How selfless and generous he is to do this. Then they have the nerve to say that gmj is fulfilling his promise of world peace, by spreading the 'knowledge' and saving the world 'one soul at a time'. At this rate we should have world peace by the time we celebrate the millenium(the 100,000 year millenium that is!)

Bye, x
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Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 11:58:35 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Right on X! Dear Nimrod:
Message:
Thanks for that, x.

Dear Nimrod:

I will let you know exactly what I'd say to MJ if I got the chance later on this week.

If you feel like it, would you please explain how most of the money from AMTEXT eventually gets into the pocket of YOU KNOW WHO!
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Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 12:21:50 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: a) MLM businesses of MJ, etc.
Message:
such as now the defunct NSA water filters, phone cards for MJ - initial sales revenue + revenue each time premie reactivates the card, Mannetech (maybe), others? (multi-level marketing - basically pyramid sales)

b) BEST WAY TRAVEL (out of Australia) & other travel agencies, KICKBACKS from halls, convention centres, (hotels used by premies for sure), group sales extra bonus tickets are sold to other premies instead of bring down the price (extra money to MJ)

c) Visions - trinkets and videos and EV Donations
Does Visions use its publishing and video copying services to outsiders?

d) Aerodynamic-related businesses - He talked about inventing new seats once?

e) music business - CDs being sold publically & recorded at MJ's Malibu Mansion - Is he letting strangers use the facility for a price, too?

f) G4 - does MJ let others rent it?

g) AMTEXT and other premie-started businesses

h) construction companies & other companies that automatically give 10% off the top to EV

i) stocks and bonds, land holdings and speculations (remember how angry he got when someone spilled the beans about the Guru's Tierra del Amour and the surround land skyrocketed so MJ wouldn't buy it)

How does he put it in other premies' names (double taxes) and EV and still rake the profits? MJ can received unlimited gifts in California, I think. That is why all the premies are encouraged to send money directly to his mailbox there. Of course, there is no tax deduction then.

j) swiss bank accounts

ADVICE TO MAHARAJI: YOU SHOULD START HIRING NON-CULT MEMBERS TO HANDLE YOUR BUSINESS FROM NOW ON LEST YOU ARE EXPOSED FOR THE FRAUD YOU ARE. YOUR LOOSE ENDS ARE INCREASING DAILY.
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Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 13:15:29 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: a) MLM businesses of MJ, etc.
Message:
Gail,

Thanks for that input. I would assume that most of the money BM now gets is at least technically legal, but it probably isn't the most ethical, and he certainly doesn't want even the premies to know where his money really comes from, or came from. It would be too embarrassing and he wouldn't want the press to get ahold of it, or for the government to start poking around in the details.

This is what I find most astounding. The secrecy. If his finances were so above board, he would freely talk about it. Premies could be told exactly where BM's money to finance his opulent lifestyle so they wouldn't have to make up lies about him being an inventor, or to just use the very-tired and illogical premie rationalization that it doesn't matter.

As it is, it's only through defectors from Amtext, for example, that we find out that a big hunk of money is donated from Amtext to BM every year and that he holds little parties/award ceremonies to show his appreciation and to keep the meal ticket going.

But I am also curious about a couple of things you said:

Does BM really have phone cards? Or credit cards? I suppose this is really possible. I just got an advertisement from my university alma mater asking that I take out a gold visa card with the name of the university on it. Apparently the university gets some income for every card issued, and maybe for every purchase made on the card. I suppose phone cards could be used the same way.

What is Mannetech?

I fully agree that BM makes money off programs, above and beyond the entrance fee. In the past, programs were a big money-maker, with kick backs from hotels, airlines, etc. Is there no longer a premie travel agency in North America? I remember AIITA, later called 'Travel Lite,' in Miami Beach which used to book all the premies hotel and airline reservations and they made lots of money doing that. Is there only one in Australia now? Do premies in North America and Europe just book there own flights and hotel rooms themselves, or is there some king of coordinated process through that with EV?

I think under the US tax code, someone can make a donation to BM as a gift, and I don't think BM has to pay taxes on it. But the person who makes the donation can't take a tax deduction either. Clearly, any money he got from EV, Visions, or any of the businesses would be 'income' and hence taxable by both the state and the federal government. That's why he tries so hard to say he gets no money from those organizations. More likely they cover his 'expenses' for travel, likely including the plane costs (which are likely huge) but he doesn't receive an 'income' per se. But I would guess the IRS would want to look closely at this, because the impetus to hide 'income' as something else is pretty huge.

It's a big loophole in the tax code that 'gifts' are not considered taxable income. The loophole is there because the government doesn't think people would be stupid enough just to give there money away to support someone they don't even know and who obviously doesn't need it, when they get no tax break for doing so. This is why BM needs DEVOTION, aka gratitude. It gets people to do things against their own financial best interests. I guess it basically boils down to being a tax dodge. Yes, I can just see an article in 'Cult Weekly.' 'How to Use Devotion/Gratitude as an Efficient Way to Avoid Taxes.'
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Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 13:23:48 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Also
Message:
Because getting money from a business is such a 'gray area' in terms of whether it is a 'gift' or it's income, I'm surprised that BM has been so vocal and overtly appreciative of the money Amtext gives him every year. I would think the IRS would be very interested in determining if he owes income taxes on that money, since it does appear he does some 'services' for Amtext, if nothing else, being the 'beneficial owner,' 'inspiring' the Amtext contractors to work harder for the lord, holding 'inspirational meetings' at his house to try and increase sales, and spend a lot of time with Chuck Nathan, perhaps influencing, or being the final decision-maker, on how things in the organization are run. It seems to me to be a very dangerous arrangement from the perspective of the IRS.

I know I don't know all the details, but from what Nimrod said, it looks to me like he's got a potential problem there.

Nimrod, have you talked to anyone at the IRS or the states of Florida or California about any of this?
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Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 13:43:40 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The wonderful IRS.
Message:
I tried to get the IRS to go after a guy who I had a problem with who had stuffed $750,000 cash profit into his back pocket without reporting it, off of my sweat equity. An IRS rep told me the only thing I could do was to call the fraud line. I did, then one month later got a call from them. They then sent me a form which I received two months after that. I sent it in, then heard nothing until 6 months later, when I got a letter telling me to write down all the details (again), and send it in within 10 days, or the case would be dropped. I was traveling and did not have the time nor inclination to respond so quickly after all their procrasination. I understand they must have volume issues, but I still feel like writing to them and saying that I do not wish to pay taxes this year since they obviously don't really give a fuck.

Of couse, we all know how THAT would backfire!
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Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 17:30:57 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: The wonderful IRS.
Message:
Yes, the IRS can be a very frustrating bureaucracy. I have seen them ignore flagrant violations, and then, on the other hand, sink their teeth into some small time violator and just not let go.

For example, my secretary is being harrassed about taxes owed by her ex-husband, who has disappeared to avoid getting hauled in by the IRS. She is pursuing an 'innocent spouse' exemption, but it takes a good year to get resolved, and in the meantime, she has to continue making payments. And there is nothing she can do about it.
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Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 18:16:29 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Also
Message:
No JW,I have not talked to these people ...yet. The only place where I've shared the Amtext info has been here on these pages, and with Info Cult in Montreal.
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Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 18:00:39 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Right on X! Dear Nimrod:
Message:
Amtext gets a cut from the wholesalers it does business with, on the total volume of books sent by Amtext bookbuyers to these wholesalers.
Now, both RDS and myself, have estimated this volume to be in the vicinity of between $13-$15,000,000 dollars a year.
The 'cut' from the wholesalers can be as high as 20%.
100% of Amtext's net profit(after tax profit) goes to M as the 'soul' and 'sole beneficial owner' of Amtext.
I believe that money is delivered to M in the manner spelled out by JW, namely as a gift, on which according to US tax law , M would not have to pay any taxes.
That would mean that since its inception some 20 years ago, Amtext has turned over $15,000,000 to M , during that entire period.
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Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 18:54:57 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Nimrod
Subject: Phone Cards
Message:
The phone cards were/are? sold by Visions. They had a lotus and a little quote from MJ on them. The buyer can stick it in the phone and place a call home to their loved ones they are neglecting. When the card runs out of time, the buyer can recharge the card and pay by credit card. Every time it is recharged guess who makes a profit? There were several MLM scams going on regarding phone cards. I do not know if these ones were part of a pyramid or not. If they were, the person at the top of the heap stands to make a lot of cash!!!!!

There were no MJ credit cards. Maybe he should start flogging these as well. Come fly with us--Divine Visa. The interest charges are only 10% per month. JSCA
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 03:17:43 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Palace of Peace
Message:
I was trying to remember the lay-out of this place. I went back and had a look at it a few days ago after reading Ed's piece about the WPC bugging it. I heard some rumours about that at the time BTW. I was trying to work out where the old projectionists area would have been. Where was the stage area compared to the entrance lobby - was the building L-shaped?

It's now called London House and there are a couple of company name plates by the door. The swans have gone - what a souvenir they would be :-) The wide front entrances are bricked up with just a single standard doorway.

I also remember hearing some stories that there had been an elderly couple living in a flat there and that they came with the building as 'sitting tenants'. They were heavily pressured and forced to move out. Anyone recall anything about this? At the time I just ignored stuff like that - if it didn't compute then it didn't exist. If true - well, that's one way to bring peace to the world.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 03:27:53 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: syd
Subject: Palace of Peace
Message:
Dear Syd,
Good morning! I see we are up at the same time, although for me it is the middle of the night and I picture you up with your family, children up and starting their day.
I don't know about this Palace, just saw we were here in real time and thought I'd say hi.
There is a lot of recent info on Amtext in the Inactive list and or in the archives. Have you gotten that far yet? There are many here with first hand knowledge of that topic that I am sure will reply to you.
Have a wonderful day.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 04:35:05 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Robyn
Subject: Palace of Peace
Message:
Hi Robyn,

Yes it's the morning here - the rising sun is shining over my shoulder and Wilf is playing with his new xmas toys.

I didn't see anything about Amtext in the inactive list, except for it being mentioned, and haven't yet read through all the archives. There are an awful lot of them! I do think it would be useful if they were available to scan on-line as well as to download. Then you could at least scan through the headers and pick up on the most interesting looking ones.

And if the site had a simple search engine to scan all text on the site, as well as having everything available, it would increase the value of the site enormously. This place will continue to grow and accumulate evidence of the first-hand history 'I was there' type and I think that is very valuable. I saw Sir D mention this recently. I may be able to do some work on this in a few weeks time.

Problem, as always, would be the site managers finding time to implemement changes - and maybe money to have the site hosted on a faster server as it becomes better known. Reading this forum is unfortunately a very slow way to communicate although very effective. At the moment I'm on leave so can spend several hours a day scanning through.

Anyway, that's why I'm hoping someone can tell me when the discussions were since there is no 'index' etc. None of these comments are intended in any way as complaints or anything of the sort, merely as observations and thoughts for the future.

Have fun!
Syd
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 04:41:11 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: syd
Subject: Palace of Peace
Message:
The Amtext discussions were very recent, Syd. Possibly the end of November/beginning of December. There were several threads over a number of weeks, including a not-to-be-missed message from the guy who started the business up and claims it was stolen from him by DLM.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 04:57:09 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: nigel
Subject: Palace of Peace
Message:
Thanks, Nigel. I'll dig around. Especially interested in first-hand witness accounts.

Syd
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 11:41:34 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: site, forum, and archives
Message:
Hi Syd - The Amtext discussions should be fairly easy to find - as Nigel said, they took place about a month ago. If you go back a little further, you will find some stuff on the DECA plane project that you might find interesting too.

I agree with you about the archives - they can be unwieldy, and hard to search through. I've been trying to delete off-topic posts before they go into the archives so that all that goes in there is GMJ-related material. Also, at some point we want to digest the archives - pull out relevant and interesting posts and group them by topic. This is going to be an enormous job, and since the site is run on people's spare time, may not happen for a while.

BTW, just so you know, we pay for the server from contributions from exes who can afford to contribute. (Brian doesn't get any monetary compensation for running the site.) Thus it really is 'our' site.

Good luck with the archives!
Katie

P.S. (ot) I agree with you about Scully's book - I liked 'Dark Star' more. Thanks for the other recommendations.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 15:31:02 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Katie
Subject: site, forum, and archives
Message:
Katie,
Do you run your own server or is it hosted on a commercial site?
Syd
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 17:24:45 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: site, forum, and archives
Message:
It's on a commercial site.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 14:52:21 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: server/download speed
Message:
Syd,

I'm curious on your comment as to the speed of this site.

Sometimes I run System Monitor which is found in Programs/Accessories/System Tools (if you installed it when you installed Windows.) I monitor Bytes Rec'd for the Dialup Adapter. And when I do a refresh on the Active Index I'm getting close to 56k bytes received which is the maximum on my modem.

Jeez, I can't tell what's happening on Enjoying Life, but I'm getting terrible rates. In fact, I'd almost suspect that they're blocking me.

Doing a tracert I show 15 hops to www.enjoyinglife.org and when I ping them it times out.

Doing a tracert I show 15 hops to www.ex-premie.org and when I ping the average roundtrip time is 266 milliseconds.

When I ping my own local ISP I'm getting an average roundtrip time of 149 milliseconds.

I'd say that here in the U.S. connecting to ex-premie.org is not too bad. I'd say that the 'pipe' that the ex-premie server is on is a good one. I don't know about the actual server. Brian might be able to tell us.

Can anybody get to www.enjoyinglife.org? Are they blocking me or is there a problem going to England today?
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 15:39:20 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: barney
Subject: server/download speed
Message:
I get reasonable connect speeds too though I only have 33k at the moment. I think the real delay is my speed of thought :-)

enjoyinglife.org was up at normal speeds today - I checked something there about an hour ago and also several hours ago. Seemed ok from here but it may depend on what trans-atlantic link your isp uses etc. But clearly you know all that. Be interesting to see if the blocking persists - ask your isp to see if they can check if their site has been blocked by el.org.

Syd
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:01:34 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: syd
Subject: Palace of Peace
Message:
Dear Syd,
Well, I am at fault here. I am doing way to slow of a job of reading the archives and sorting them. Sorry about that to you and everyone.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 02:07:53 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Robyn
Subject: sorting the archives
Message:
Oy, you in the back of the class there, no personal guilt trips allowed in here, thank you very much!

:-)

No hurries.It looks like a massive job, too big for one person anyway. Did you voluteer for this blissful service?
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Date: Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 06:42:29 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: syd
Subject: sorting the archives
Message:
Dear Syd,
Yes I did volunteer and yes I do feel a twinge of guilt. I was just emailing some friends from here and mentioned it. Thanks for your sentiements, appreciated.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 04:23:49 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.co.uk
To: syd
Subject: (off-topic)
Message:
They were heavily pressured and forced to move out. Anyone recall anything about this? At the time I just ignored stuff like that - if it didn't compute then it didn't exist. If true - well, that's one way to bring peace to the world.

Sounds like the Milosevich final solution for world peace.

Actually, Syd, I just caught your reply to me that's heading for the 'inactive' index. I live on the Wirral and work in Liverpool. email me whenever if you'd like more details.

(aha - so you found the web-page. Don't tell too many people about it, please. It needs a LOT of revamping, rebuilding and general work doing on it. I'll announce its existence all in good time.. )

Cheers,
Nigel
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 12:04:19 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: syd
Subject: Missing old friends
Message:
I have driven past the Palace of Peace thousands of times in the last ten years. How different the place looks now compared to the old days in the mid seventies. I remember that the local residents in East Dulwich complained about the big picture of Maharaji that was put up on one of the outside billboards. Occasionally I've met people in East Dulwich who still remember the Palace but now much of the population has changed.

Your face is familiar. Did you know two premies called Ray and Gina who used to live in Nunhead in the early eighties. Ray was a milkman. I became good friends with these two and would love to meet either of them again. I believe they moved from Nunhead and Gina got another man but still lived with Ray when this other guy moved in. Ray and Gina used to be into the Spiritualist Church quite a bit.

Anyway Syd, if you do know the whereabouts of Ray and/or Gina I'd love to get in contact with them again so perhaps you could let me know. Cheers.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 15:24:20 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Sir David
Subject: Missing old friends
Message:
Sorry, David, I don't remember them at all.

By the early '80s I was living in Forest Hill, not so very far away but with no contact with premies at all. I didn't even know that the ashrams had been closed until a few days ago. I was involved in Housing issues by then, and rebirthing (Leonard Orr style)

Syd
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 23:27:30 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Anne's Journey
Message:
I put Anne's entry online, along with a couple of other new pages. Check the What's New link to view them.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 01:02:01 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Anne's Journey
Message:
Anne--your journey story is brilliant. It sums up everything that I have felt but in much better words than I could have put together. I liked how you bravely talked about that combination of egoism along with insecurity that made you susceptible. I could really identify with that. ALso, the long road of developing personal power and security...Anne, I especially liked your last paragraph about GM being a vulture pecking at roadkill-- preying on peoples' insecurities --wow.

God, that is an honest piece of self-expression. Thank you, Anne. One thing--the date you received knowledge should be in the 70's I think, not 1993, becuase of the time lapse (you sound like you're in your 40's now)

Hope you start posting here,
Helen
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 01:05:54 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Anne's Journey
Message:
Helen,
I saw that, too. I was wondering how she knew what arti was and why she was calling it the Divine Light Mission if she received Knowledge in the 90's.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 01:46:09 (EST)
From: Anne
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Anne's Journey
Message:
Hi. You're right about the year. It should be 1975.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 03:22:07 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Anne
Subject: Anne's Journey
Message:
Dear Anne,
Thank you for your entry. It is significant, I believe, how many of us come from similar backgrounds where our parents weren't able, for different reasons, to raise us. I know there are also many of us who came from loving families but that not being my experiences, I can't speak about that. Actually the thing that saved me was the fact that as a small sickly child, my mother did spend 'quality' time with me and I wasn't included in the beatings until I was 7. My dad was loving with us but was dysfunctional enough not to be able to protect us kids from it. I also made a conscience desicion to raise myself but at the age of 9. These types of experiences did set us up for m.
I hope you get a lot here, support, friendship, confrontation and caring.
Welcome.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 16:50:36 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: To Robyn
Message:
Robyn--I just didn't want this post to go by unrecognized. My heart goes out to you, I'm sorry you had to raise yourself. Isn't that an amazing sign of strength that you and Anne were able to do that? And Katie too, no doubt! ANd many others out there. It's such a challenge raising kids when one's own role models were so screwy. I admire you for getting where you are today.
Are you freezing still--freezing rain and all?
Love,
Helen
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:06:40 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Helen
Subject: To Robyn
Message:
Dear Helen,
Thanks Helen, we really do what we have to do, that's all. It is freezing. I have had the wood stove going full tilt and still am wearing sweat pants and a sweat shirt! I am usually in summer cloths in the house! It was 0 this morning and 10 at noon. Yuck. It was supposed to snow and ice starting at noon but here 7 hrs later nothing. I am ecstatic! :) :) Aren't you supposed to get this too?
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 21:35:07 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: To Robyn
Message:
It's started. There's a sheet of ice out there. Maybe it missed you all up there?
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Date: Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 06:36:34 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Helen
Subject: To Robyn
Message:
Dear Helen,
I don't know when it started but I've been up since 5:30am and it has been sleeting sheets for the hour I've been up. YUCK! We didn't get the snow they predicted so that is something I guess. It is also supposed to get up to 40 so hopefully the ice will melt.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 09:18:58 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Anne
Subject: Anne's Journey - Revised
Message:
Okay, I fixed the date. You're now 20 years older! :)
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 14:41:09 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Don't mean to be picky - Bri
Message:
Now having gained the knowledge perspective of lining another twenty four years (emphasis mine)

Shouldn't that be 'living'? I, King of Reckless Typing and Stupid Typos, only mention it because the typo lends its own unintentional meaning.

Anne, do I know you? Email if you like:

heller@bc1.com

Jim
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:27:49 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jim
Subject: Don't mean to be picky - Bri
Message:
I got most of the spelling errors in that entry. Someday I might be ambitious enough to take on correcting all of the spelling errors in your entry too :)
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Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 17:03:21 (EST)
From: Anne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Don't mean to be picky - Bri
Message:
Hi Jim,
No you do not know me although I spoke to you on the phone from Gail's house back in November. Thanks for proof reading my entry.
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Date: Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 02:16:25 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Anne
Subject: Anne's Journey
Message:
Anne,

You are very courageous and insightful to have focussed on the emotional background to your experience. It's helping me to put my experience into that context and to move away from the 'I needed a spiritual teacher' view of what brought me to that point of desperation in my life.

One query, you write:

having received a knowledge review session from gm himself had cured me of my illusion of him being anything more that a man with a good gig.

I would be very pleased if you could write some more about this as it is particularly interesting at the moment to see first-hand witness accounts of being with m and reactions to that.

Bye for now
Syd
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 15:56:05 (EST)
From: seymour
Email: seymour_t@rocketmail.com
To: Anne
Subject: Anne's Journey
Message:
Hello Anne,
I'd like to say all that Helen has said.
Wonderfull, expressive, intelligent, well written Journey.
I hope you will be posting lots on the forum.
Cheers
Seymour
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 09:05:00 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Anne
Subject: Anne's Journey
Message:
Hi Anne,

Thanks for a great journey entry.

I too grew up with a father who was into alcohol abuse. He got seriously screwed up during and after world war 2 and we all grew up with the fall out.

I'm not a psychologist, but I wonder if there's a connection between people who grow up with a poor father 'role model' and, maybe subconsciously, go out looking for 'a new father' and become followers of characters like Maharaji, who claim to be everything their flawed, earthly parent wasn't.

Did you follow the trail back to discover where your dad got screwed up?

I think this stuff goes all the way back to when we were animals (a few million years). So by dealing with all this inherited crap, we are actually doing our bit to make the world a better place. Just a theory.

AJW
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Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 16:57:30 (EST)
From: Anne
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Anne's Journey
Message:
Thanks Helen for your kind comments. My ego really roared when Gail left a package for me with printed material from this site, last spring. How dare she!, I don't need this crap, it is a long ago done deal for me is what I felt. After a few heaping tablespoons of humility and many months later, I could finally admit to myself that yes, I had to now examine all this 'leftover stuff' even though I had been a 'non-practising premie' for a long time.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 12:25:22 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Anne's Journey - Void
Message:
Brian (Anne):

In spirit I believe we can experience love everywhere and in everything allowing us to have compassion for the harsh realties of life as well as experiencing joy and wonder for a quiet sunrise. Never needing any longer to negate rational thought or emotions.

Thanks for the Journey's contribution. Taking up this gauntlet is difficult because of a problem we must share as humans. It is generally easier to come to agreement on those conditions of life that have negative consequences. It hits us all more or less equally.

Experiences that support a compassionate and uplifting attitude are, or tend to be, personal, and providing evidence of a general positive and healing insight is difficult and expensive. By it's very nature it is profoundly more complicated than cynicism. I grew up in a small town, and several years ago a woman who had been the kindergarten teacher for most of the people in the town, over a period of about 40 years, was sexually assaulted and brutally murdered by someone she had been trying to help. The event shattered much of the peace that people felt entitled to, as well as the feeling that good intentions are sacrosanct. (Much like the OK City bombings did on a larger scale.) Although retired, Esta was frequently seen riding from one place to another on her bicycle (in her eighties). She was not only an inspirational figure, but part of the essential glue that held the community together. I can't bear to even consider what she must have gone through, but have been thinking about some sort of project that would allow those of us who knew her to reclaim something in her name. It may be essential to do something, to work through what people feel, and what her death meant to the town. Have been thinking about a book, or perhaps a more ambitious sociological work like the Marienthal studies about a small town in Austria during the 1930s. It is not easy to be reassured, but my own small hometown is growing up... not down. It is an extraordinary and hopeful thing to see, and perhaps worth sharing with a broader audience.

-Scott
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 16:44:00 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Your hometown teacher
Message:
Scott, I really do hope that you write that book--or undertake a study or even write an article. If you need any help organizing your ideas let me know. It might help you gain a sense of how your friends' life still lives on despite what happened to her.

It certainly seems that the world stinks when things like that happen. But people like the Kindergarten teacher from your hometown are still the best thing about life, IMO, and they inspire the rest of us. It is devastating when the best people have horrible things happen to them.
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Date: Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 02:25:43 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Your hometown teacher
Message:
Helen:

Thanks for the offer. Let's get together. I have a few ideas, though not many. I guess what attracts me is that, although I could spend time making a general contribution (and lots of people in DC are obsessed with that), doing something for the people in my home town has more meaning.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 12:54:41 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Your hometown teacher
Message:
Much more tangible, no doubt, and more worthwhile doing something for your hometown. DC is a coo-coo bird place. What am I to do since it's my hometown? There are people here I've known my whole life. It ain't easy maintaining connections in this coo-coo place. I'm em ya, we definitely should get together.
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 19:36:01 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Since MJ's not the Lord, why
Message:
do some folks on this net get upset when he is criticized? What difference does it make? Why does he need protection from ex-premies. I, for example, hate MJ because he and enslaved me through programming and poisoned all areas of my life for many years. Nevertheless, if someone else believes that MJ is good for him/her, what's the problem? It makes no difference what I say.
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 22:07:13 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Since MJ's not the Lord, why
Message:
Don't forget those that come and read.
We have had quite a number admit that they were here
and it helped them by reading. And frankly Gail, your
posts are very good and I get a laugh also.
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 23:33:52 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Myth+Tradition=Comfort
Message:
Gail,
That is a good question. Why are premies so threatened by facts? Why do groups have to cling to their dogmas, theologies, rules, creeds, etc.? FEAR! Questioning and thinking can cause the masses to revolt, eh?

I've been reading Honest To Jesus by the scholar who wrote the Five Gospels, Robert Funk. I'm not too far into it, but Mr. Funk spends a LOT of time defending his presentation of the historical Jesus. (I understand why, but so far I wish he would spend more time presenting his facts and less time defending WHY he is presenting them.)

According to him, many people in the religious community are threatened by the historical facts about Jesus 'the man' (as his quest has presented it). I guess to them many of Funks 'facts' about what Jesus really said and did fly in the face of their religious traditions of Jesus 'the Christ'. Funk and committe separated history from the myths ('god' stories). Do we as humans fear truth and facts and prefer our comforts of traditions and myths? Seems this is the answer to your question of why the premies feel so threatened by your disclosures here.

When Robert Funk declares the virgin birth a myth, doubts that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, and questions whether or not he was even a carpenter...well, you can just imagine the reaction from the fundamentalist Christians. He says Jesus probably only did/said about 20% of the things attributed to him. When people on the forum challenge the divinity of Maharaji and present other facts about Maharaji 'the man', premies who believe he is the perfect master come again respond with fear and loathing.

I have yet to get to the part in the book where Funk is going to explain how the Christian faith can accept his portrait of historical Jesus and still function. I certainly do not know how the premies who read here can continue to accept their myths (Maharaji is God incarnate, Knowledge is what Jesus taught, etc.) or their traditions (attending festivals, giving darshan, premie 'hymns' and videos, etc.)
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 00:14:44 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Myth+Tradition=Comfort
Message:
That is a very, very good explanation, VP, very insightful. My hat's off to you!

P.S. Happy New Year to all those who e-mailed, haven't had a chance to respond personally. May we all find our 'truth' in 1999; I know one thing for certain, it doesn't have anything to do with Maharaji for me (except for the friendship and fellowship of you great ex's!)
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 03:26:13 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Since MJ's not the Lord, why
Message:
Hi Gail!

Are you kidding? Didn't you attend some of the 'aspirants' preparation' seminar?

Remember what they are carefully taught during the 'process'?
There is now (and has been for quite a few years) very few 'new' people coming in EV, whatever the BM and EV's representative say.
The only place where hundreds or 1000s receive k are India, Cote d'Ivoire, Mauritius, and some places with strong Indian communities. And most of these people only come to add m's picture on their altar, as they've already paid a visit and received initiation from numerous gurus.
Most of these 'new' people from western countries have an internet access, and what are they going to discover soon?
M's cult is soon going to be dead, that what Phase II is going to be I'm afraid...

Plus they still have that paranoia of 'press people', as a premie ex-friend told me a few weeks ago. And they think that these 'anti-m' websites will draw press to EV's events, thus threatening them! Press is threatening the quiteness of their womb-like events. I can understand this. And if their events are disturbed, what's going to be left?

And I can understand they don't like when I say bad things about someone they so dearly love.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 17:35:22 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: if only
Message:
Christainity went through some times where it was just a
few folks that were the ones that made the belief widespread.

Y2k will make a big dent in internet reach for a while and
also, not all search engines carry us and also, not all those new people looking will know what ex-premie means.

They will see cd's web site that says -maharaji-
and that's something we can do something about.

We can put out something with his name all over it.

Contacting search engines might work.
I am thinking cd cantacted the two microsoft search engines
folks because he is a microsoft certified guy and we aren't on either one. one is called -goto-

The videos and zealots and evolving rap of rawat combined with
the demolition of our global economy will allow him inroads.

He isn't through.
although I prefer your future vision,
he has too much money to stop his mischief.
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Date: Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 12:17:30 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: bill
Subject: if only
Message:
My brother-in-law told me the other day that he knows someone who can get a web site within the first three listed on any particular web search engine. I could make enquiries about this. Also, there needs to be more anti-Maharaji sites on the net and each one with links to this site. If there's more ex-premie sites on search engines with links to this site then the chances of people finding us are greatly increased.

Don't forget the old alt.cult.maharaji newsgroup, either. I make regular posts to that to keep it going and with information about this site. Usenet has very valuable and specific search engines which ALWAYS bring up the latest posts about Maharaji on any newsgroup, so long as 'Maharaji' has been put in the title and the person does a search on the same name.
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Date: Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 13:38:46 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: usenet posts
Message:
Dear Sir David -
THANKS so much for making those regular posts to alt.cult.maharaji. As you probably saw, I was doing that for a while as part of my 'service', but I kept forgetting, and finally stopped. I really appreciate you taking on that job.

Love,
Katie

P.S. I used to copy the posts to alt.support.ex-cult, too.
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Date: Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 22:25:20 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Katie
Subject: usenet posts
Message:
Yep, I post the info on alt.cult.maharaji, alt.meditation and a few others too. Every now and then one of my posts provokes a discussion which is always interesting.
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 00:49:34 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: usenet posts
Message:
Sheesh - I guess I'll have to start reading usenet again! Thanks again, though, David - it's a big help that you're making those posts.
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 04:41:02 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Katie
Subject: usenet posts
Message:
Being an old fashioned kind of guy, plus the fact that I always go against current trends, I never gave up usenet for propogating Maharaji's true message. As well as the alt.cupport.ex-cult, I've also recently posted on soc.culture.india which should prove quite interesting if a discussion arises there.
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 15:06:17 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: www.trancenet.org
Message:
Gail sent us all a link to www.trancenet.org regarding TM. I noticed that they have numerous cults mentioned, but no Maharaji.

Could someone officially contact them and get a link to ex-premie.org over there?
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Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 01:34:31 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: all
Subject: newsgroups
Message:
I never can link to the alt.cult newsgroup when I try to from this site..
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Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 11:05:10 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Sir David
Subject: if only
Message:
I believe it is necessary, or at least advisable, to register a web-site on search engines - not just wait for them to maybe find a site. It is said that even the most comprehensive search engines cover only about30% of the web.

When I was searching for info on m and dlm etc a couple of weeks ago, the only link to this site that I found on altavista (said to be one of the most comprehensive) was to the french translation of Bob Mishler's interview.

As it happens, I need to find out about this very topic fairly soon as part of a little project and will be very happy to get ex-premie.org registered as widely as possible when I have discovered how. In the meantime, FWIW, I have put a link to the site on my home page http://www.gold.ac.uk/~syd/ with a simple statement of support for the work and aims of the site and a good selection of keywords which I hope search engines will pick up eventually (my page has certainly found its way onto some of them over the past couple of years).

Syd
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Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 12:21:27 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: if only
Message:
I just did a search on Altavista for 'maharaji' and the letters to Maharaji page on this site came up as number two on the results list. If one goes to that page then there is a link back to this site's main page.

Using meta tags seems the only way to get something high up on the list but that doesn't always work and every time someone registers a new URL with 'maharaji' meta tags the whole results list gets jumbled up and what was once at the top suddenly gets relegated way down the list.

In the war of getting 'maharaji' high up on the search engines it would appear that Jean-Michel and enjoyinglife.org and Chris Dickey are winning and ex-premie.org is losing the battle. At the moment. At least Jean-Michel's site is promenant.
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Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 13:04:54 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Glad to know it!
Message:
I haven't done much about it!

Beside registering ex-premie.org(french) on the French Yahoo, in the cults related section.
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Date: Tues, Jan 05, 1999 at 13:46:31 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Locate.com:Good search page nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 06:58:38 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Sir David
Subject: if only
Message:
Yes, you're right! Lots of links - can't remember now exactly which search site or search term I used but now suspect that it was Yahoo and that I found the reference registered by Jean-Michel.

Syd
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 23:20:03 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: BB & Saul
Subject: of Zen sticks, etc.
Message:
First to Bill Burke:

I remember who you are, man! We always had a really good connection. We need to talk. Please e-mail me at mcpass1@earthlink.net

Now To Saul:

You have always been even-tempered in your posts to me and I appreciate it. When you mentioned the Zen stick to describe Jim's antics, I had some thoughts about it later on I want to run by you.

First, someone taking a stick and smacking someone else with it is called assault and battery in most places where there are laws. This crime is punishable by various means depending upon what country you are in. In countries where laws don't rule, you can get killed for hitting somebody with a stick.

Isn't it interesting that to this day the tradition of zen masters committing assault and battery on zen students is legal and accepted by the recipients, and is even considered a sign of attention and care. How many of us here on this site would put up with that shit? Based on the intolerance of Maharaji here, I rather doubt that you, Jim, or anyone present and accounted for would buy into getting smacked around either. So please don't use the abusive practices of a past trip to justify the actions of
anyone here. It just doesn't add up.

If the zen stick idea holds, then I could say that everything Maharaji has done that you all have problems with is just another form of the zen stick....but I am not saying that, nor am I implying that.

And the other discrepency is that you wouldn't drink water from anybody's feet 'if a gun was put to your head' as you said (paraphrase), but you endorse assault and battery, verbal or otherwise.

Saul, please take another look at your analogy.
And Happy New Year!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 23:46:48 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: WHACK!!
Message:
Just kidding.

It was a metaphor, shp. A metaphor.

(Look it up.)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 23:54:43 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: GO WHACK YOURSELF (off)!!!
Message:
just kidding.

Thou Metphorist:
Thou who dost claimest poetic license
Must allowest it to thine adversary.
Forsooth.

White Zinfandel.
Smooth lubricant into the next spin around the sun.
Spill not onto thy keyboard
Lest we mess the puter up.
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 00:14:09 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Sexual assault!
Message:
Well shp,

So this is what the end of the world will look like, huh? You and me typing away...

Wouldn't it be funny if Maharji finally gets his website up and running next month and it turns out he's into a whole bunch of weird stuff no one ever knew about? Like what if he's a raging Y2K doomsday kind of guy (whose fear I'm not able to completely laugh off, I'm afraid). What if he's just REALLY into movies (like his mentor, Kim Il Jung?) and www.maharaji.org ends up being nothing but reviews, discussions and off-set gossip about his favorite stars? Or what if his page ends up being one of those kind of folksie sites people put up for themselves, like CD's or Syd's? [I just had my annual New Year's call from Chris by the way. Very nice. We chatted for about 15 minutes. I said hi to his girlfriend. I told him people would probably respect him more and diss him less if he deigned to discuss things here instead of taking pot shots. He said he felt it wasn't really his site, if you know what I mean. Plus, words are so 'ambiguous'. {I didn't correct him but he meant 'vague'). I told him that in back and forth discussion people can zone in on each other and transcend that problem quit nicely. He sounds like a nice guy. Again, I implored him to really putr his cards on the table and talk here. I'll probably do the same thing next year.] You know, bad pictures of m at the beach, m with his dog, m's kids, m at a program wearing a krishna crown and having tons of people line up to kiss his feet?

Or what if m starts typing out long, long daily screeds? You know, what if he throws all caution to the wind and starts pontificating about everything? Or worse, what if he sticks to just one topic -- you know, THAT one -- and finally bores the hell out of every premie alive?

Just some thoughts. Happy New Year. Time to get dressed.
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 00:21:16 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Was it good for you?
Message:
Have fun wherever you are going tonight and drive carefully.
Out here it just turned into 1999, one of my kids is sick and sleeping on the couch, I just kissed my wife and she dozed off after a busy day, and I'm spending these precious moments with an electronic device and you. Go figure.
Perhaps we will speak again, senor.
Que cera cera.
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 00:23:44 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Was it good for you?
Message:
...the electronic device I was referring to was my computer.
And what do you mean you have to get dressed now...have you been posting to me naked? What kind of trip are you on?
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 10:07:17 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: shp/Jim
Subject: Was it good for you: A joke
Message:
Re: posting naked:

An elderly couple is celebrating their 50th wedding anniversary.
'Darling wouldn't it be fun if we ate breakfast in the nude the way we did after our first night together?' suggested the husband.
'Oh lets!' pronounced the wife happily.
AS they ate, the wife said 'Darling what a delicious idea this was. Why I'm so excited my breasts are getting hot'

The husband replied: 'My dear, that is because one breast is dangling in your oatmeal, the other in your coffee.'

HAPPY NEW YEAR!
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 19:14:24 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Was it good for you: A joke
Message:
Geez Helen, there's such things as breast lifts these days you know.

Selene, glad I didn't screw up my breakfast this a.m. - served to me by my guitarist - huervsos rancheros (yes, I know the other meaning of huervos, this was the eggs meaning you bad people you)
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 21:40:23 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Was it good for you: A joke
Message:
Wasn't that a goofy joke? We (my friends and I) had a bit to drink last night and told the dumbest jokes we knew. You had breakfast served to you, eh? Sounds nice. He's a keeper I'd say
(; Happy New Year
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 16:12:46 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Was it good for you?
Message:
shp,

I post naked so I can look at pictures of Maharaji while I'm talking to you. (Now that IS a joke!)

Why haven't you answered my question about PT? What do you think of the man and his message? Do you agree that m's not responsible for sending some people 'over the deep end'? No fucking around on this one, shp. Yes or no?
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 12:39:13 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Was it good for you..reply
Message:
Why haven't you answered my question about PT? What do you think of the man and his message? Do you agree that m's not responsible for sending some people 'over the deep end'? No fucking around on this one, shp. Yes or no?

>I believe in one-person-one-karma in a big way. We are each responsible for our actions. But I also believe that those who have greater understanding have greater repsonsibility to be straight with the energy they are aware of. And those who advertise as guides take on some moral responsibility for those who choose to follow them, IMHO. Then there is the subject of grace, which seems to absolve one who is doing something out of devotion, even if the action is in error. I don't fully understand this, but I have felt it in my own life. I believe that when Maharaji gives someone Knowledge and accepts the teacher-student relationship with that person, that he has taken on some moral responsiblity for that person, but I will not and cannot say specifically that it was he who pushed your friends or anyone else to go over the deep end, and I will not and cannot say that he didn't....based on the information I have. All I can say from myself is that I feel that he's responsible for his words and actions the same as we are. He says he's a human being. OK. So if he is a human being, regardless of any other authority or power he may or may not carry with him, his humanity subjects him to the same natural universal laws as the rest of us. He said so himself. He cuts himself shaving and bleeds. He stubs his toe and it hurts. So it follows that what he says and does have consequences like the rest of us. And he has said that pain comes from unconscious actions, an ancient axiom, nothing new. And there is alot of pain here of this site, indicating unconscious actions. The question requiring an answer is whose unconscious actions are causing all this pain? Is it just him? Is it just you (collective). Or is it a wierd combination of the two that needs sorting out? I'm in this too, to a degree, just by being here and posing the propsition that there are questions needing answers or some sort of closure.

What I am doing to try to understand you better is pretend that we are blood brothers who haven't seen each other in years, we both ran across the same phenomenon, Maharaji, and we each had different experiences. Now we are reuinited and comparing life notes. There are some inconsistencies in this example though, as we are are not blood brothers and we really don't know each other beyond this site and perhaps some common experiences re M. But I am giving you the benefit of the doubt in alot of instances and I am not a stereotypical premie...never did believe it that. I went for this originally to be free, not to join another club and have to deal with yet another set of peer group rules and regs.

I hope this connects with you at least some.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 14:57:32 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: shp, op, CD & all premies
Message:
Shp,

I asked you some VERY straightforward questions:

1) What do you think of PT?

2) Do you agree with him about m not being responsible for premies going over the deep end?

You completely avoided the first. Well, what DO you think of PT? I'm not asking for your philosophy on karma (BORING!!!!). Save that for someone who cares. I'm asking what you think of PT. Do you like his attitude? If so, why? If not, why? Where do you think he GOT that attitude? What, if anything, does it tell you about his teacher?

Straight answers, shp, please.

As for the second question, you say a lot but amongst your many words is this:

All I can say from myself is that I feel that he's responsible for his words and actions the same as we are.

Now, shp, in the old days of this site I would have had to cut and paste a whole bunch of quotes -- well, first I would have had to dig them up. But that was then. Now I can seimply ask you to go over to JM's site and read M's quotes there. Do it, even if you have before. It'll take all of 5 minutes.

Then come back and tell me with a straight face that you're being truthful and complete when you paraphrase m as saying about himself that he 'is a human being'. The fact is, shp, and it's a fact that you damn well know, m has said ALL SORTS OF THINGS. My friend Dave didn't come to me the day before he hung himself complaining that m said he was a human being. Get real. Deal with the full picture and get a bit of the creidt you want so much for having a little guts and integrity.

Now, I've got FOUR questions for you:

1) What do you think of PT?

2) Do you think m is presponswible for pushing any of his premies over the deep end?

3) Do you think m should have known that some of what he said would freak out any of his premies?

4) Why did you say that m says he's a human being and avoid all else he's ever said contradicting that?

5) How in the world do you expect people to take you seriously when you do shit like that?

Also, op, Chris, and any other lurkering premie, I'm asking you the first three questions. What do YOU think of PT? Etc.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 15:04:48 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: correction
Message:
When I quoted you, shp, I mean to quote this line:

He says he's a human being.

Why, shp, did you stop there? He also said ht ewas the Lord (again, see the quotes). Don't fuck around, shp. Right now you've got very little credibility and it's all your fault. You thought Helen would stand up for you but face it, shp, you're trying everyone's patience. You claim to care about the truth but you're obviously afraid of it. Now come on, WHY did you paraphrase m's self-description this way and leave it at that?

Oh, yeah, here's a bit of a realit test for you. You've got kids, right? Let me talk to them. Let me show them all m's quotes and then let me show them that the way that boils down for Dad is that m says he's a human being, end of story.

No? Why not? Aren't you proud of your uncompromising search for truth?
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 18:36:30 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: shp interrogatories
Message:
1) What do you think of PT?

>I felt a wierd vibe from PT. A few sandwiches short of a picnic.

2) Do you think m is responsible for pushing any of his premies over the deep end?

>I don't know the answer to that with what information I have, although some may swear it is so. I do believe a true master is intimately involved in the lives of his students in ways no other person is, especially in terms of life and death.

3) Do you think m should have known that some of what he said would freak out any of his premies?

>Omniscience, all-knowingness, is one of his alleged attributes,
yes? I believe the true Lord is omniscient and prescient. So the answer is yes, if he is the One, then he should have known everything...his eye is (supposed to be) on the sparrow.

4) Why did you say that m says he's a human being and avoid all else he's ever said contradicting that?

>Some of those archives are in an 'old cigar box' in my head that I posted to ham or jerry about, I believe. I also have that quote about 'guru being greater than God' stuck in there, too. I am not totally at peace with some of this stuff, either. I don't know why he's saying some things to some premies and other things to others. Your scenario about him going third world arti/darshan and high tech countries as meditation teacher is cynically plausible.

5) How in the world do you expect people to take you seriously when you do shit like that?

>I have given Maharaji carte blanche, you might say. I didn't judge him for what I saw him do or heard him say that didn't sit right with me....I figured it was his prerogative, being the Master. But then again, I never saw him do or heard him say anything that outrageous that I would leave on account of it.
Now I am hearing things on this site that are making me take note.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 22:12:30 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: shp interrogatories
Message:
Horray! Horray! You didn't evade. (Sorry, I'm evesdropping on your conversation here)
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 23:27:23 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Thanks so far, let's keep goin
Message:
2) Do you think m is responsible for pushing any of his premies over the deep end?

>I don't know the answer to that with what information I have, although some may swear it is so. I do believe a true master is intimately involved in the lives of his students in ways no other person is, especially in terms of life and death.


shp,

At the risk of seeming incredibly petty, you do know, don't you, that you're reversing the conventional quoting symbols in email and what have you? In other words, the ' > ' sign ('carrot') usually goes with the quoted text, not the reply. But anyway...

You get well-deserved credit for being repsonsive here, shp. But it's far from over, this here process. I asked you above about m. I didn't ask you your theories of 'true masters' or any such thing. Please, leave that stuff out of this. Believe it or not, my question's much simpler than all that. It allows you to take into account whatever beliefs you have, about m particularly or 'true masters' more generally. All I'm asking you is if you think m is responsible for sending anyone over the deep end.

Now I'm going to make this really simple for you. My friend came to me and told me that he couldn't imagine living any longer because he couldn't escape his doubts that m was the Lord. This was in late spring, 1974. Think back to then, if you were a premie then. Otherwise, check out the archives, ask others, do whatever you need to do to find out what things were like then. The fact is m presented himself as the Lord, k as the 'antidote' to the mind (it was in HIS letter to us upon receiving k) and life as a lapsed premie not worth living. I'm not lying, I'm not stupid and I'm not mistaken. If, for argument's sake, I'm telling the truth, what do you say? Was m responsible for pushing Dave over the deep end?

Go with your conscience here, shp. Not what you'd LIKE to be able to say. I assume there's a lot of tension there. You've already said you're a premie. Well, I'm trying to help you become an ex-premie. All I've got to work with is logic, the facts and your own conscience. Help me out, will ya'?

3) Do you think m should have known that some of what he said would freak out any of his premies?

>Omniscience, all-knowingness, is one of his alleged attributes,
yes? I believe the true Lord is omniscient and prescient. So the answer is yes, if he is the One, then he should have known everything...his eye is (supposed to be) on the sparrow.


shp,

I'm pretty unhappy with this answer. What if (as I think) m ISN'T omniscient? Does that mean he SHOULDN'T have known that some of what he would say would freak out any of his premies? That's absurd, if you ask me. He told people to surrender the reins opf their lives to him. Should he or should not have expected that that would freak some people out?

4) Why did you say that m says he's a human being and avoid all else he's ever said contradicting that?

>Some of those archives are in an 'old cigar box' in my head that I posted to ham or jerry about, I believe. I also have that quote about 'guru being greater than God' stuck in there, too. I am not totally at peace with some of this stuff, either. I don't know why he's saying some things to some premies and other things to others. Your scenario about him going third world arti/darshan and high tech countries as meditation teacher is cynically plausible.


The important thing here, I think, is to watch your own thought process. Look, you'd have to outrageously naive if you think you're 'objective' here. How could you be? If we're all wrong you can go on 'loving' your master. If we're right, you've made a VERY serious mistake in life. If you tell yourself you're indifferent between those alternatives you've lying to yourself. And if you're not indifferent, how can you be objective?

Like prosecutors, we ex's are indeed focussing on the bad in m. It's the bad that exposes him. You know, telling someone about the time that John Gotti gave ten thousand bucks to his tailor so he could pay for his son's wedding doesn't go to the heart of who Gotti is. Talking about m saying he's a human being is absoltuely meaningless in the face of all else he's said. Check out the introduction he signed for each issue of And it is Divine. 'There has never been a time when the Supreme Lord hasn't manifested in human form...' or something like that. THAT's who he said he was. Deal with it!

I'm trying to respect you, shp. Honestly. And I aprreciate your efforts such as they are. But I also despise your avoidance such as it is. Maybe it'll turn out that you weren't ready for this. If so, that'll be too bad. On the other hand, you're here now. Might as well follow through, eh?
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 19:11:07 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Was it good for you?
Message:
Interesting you would need to clarify the electronic device.
I was sure it was the computer. What else could it have been?

selene - innocent eyes looking clearly into years, sweet smile on her face, just slightly off....
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 19:08:16 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: GO WHACK YOURSELF (off)!!!
Message:
Are we sure this isn't one of the more objectionable forms of Keith, come back to haunt us?
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 16:39:22 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: of Zen sticks, etc.
Message:
Hi shp and welcome to 1999. I hope it's a good year for everyone on this site.

I'm glad that you're posting here trying to work things out about big MJ etc., but I do think that the Zen stick metaphor is a good one. If you'd drop your preconceptions I think you might see that THERE IS NO BIG MYSTERY ABOUT MJ TO UNCOVER. He is no different from any of a large number of people teaching almost identical things and, in many cases, using this kind of setup to their personal advantage.

Think about this for a second. Set aside your own personal history and suppose that you have access to the teachings of all these people simultaneously but with no names attached. Do you think that what MJ has to say would really stand out? Do you think that the K techniques would stand out?
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 12:52:47 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: of Zen sticks, etc.
Message:
What attracted me to him particularly was:
(I knew this stuff before I read the GMJ flyers)

1) the timing of his coming to events and the 'search' in my life

2) his resemblance to the foretold comng of a 'child' in different scriptural references from different sources (judeo-christian, south american and other)

3) the foretelling of the son of man coming from east to west (jesus)

4) the foretelling of the knowledge of god being dispensed in the world (Isaiah 5:9)

5) the feeling I get when I really practice

6) like Woody Allen said: '90% of success is just showing up.'
Maybe the Knowledge is known by others, M says it's nothing new himself. But maybe M's the guy who is putting his ass on the line and 'showing up' as Woody puts it, travelling most of the year to fulfill his father's direction, and enjoying the benefits and luxuries it has brought him. I am not defending him or attacking you, I am just putting forth a perpsective, a window for you to look through and see the view from that point.

7) It is said that Beta format is technically better quality than VHS, but VHS rules. Why? Marketing. Just a thought.....
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:02:14 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: of Zen sticks, etc.
Message:
Hi shp,

Thanks for your answers. Surely the claims above about M could be made by MANY other teachers, right? The prophesies thing is really standard and done by others to a much greater extent (e.g. Sai Baba). Propagation is done by essentially all the groups. What I am trying to get at is that any idea that M is 'the perfect master of the time' holds equally for many others, even if you think that there is such a thing. Do you agree with that?

Also, to any premies out there, doesn't self respect have to enter this at some point? I mean, you're already kissing his feet and supporting his pets in hollywood dog college (see above). How far are you willing to go?

I know it's hard to be 100% honest here since you have to consider what reaction you'll get, but remember, it's only ascii characters. How about answering the first question above and Jim's too? I think that alot of people have the impression that you write long posts evading unpleasant conclusions. Hey, it might be an interesting experiment to post as normal otherwise, but when responding to Jim use only the words 'yes' and 'no'. Why not? regards, Saul
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:04:48 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: of Zen sticks, etc.
Message:
shp,

I just saw your reply to Jim. I thought that it was pretty honest.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:44:22 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: of Zen sticks, etc.
Message:
I am sandng myself down to the wood, Saul.
I want to sound and be honest every time I open my mouth.
To me, that would be a really high and free life, something I have always aspired to and associated with being in the presence of God and Love.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 20:59:09 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: of Zen sticks, etc.
Message:
[shp says:
I am sandng myself down to the wood, Saul.
I want to sound and be honest every time I open my mouth.
To me, that would be a really high and free life, something I have always aspired to and associated with being in the presence of God and Love.]

That's pretty nice shp. Learning from someone is a good thing, but for me, freedom and kissing someone's feet do not go together.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:40:31 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: of Zen sticks, etc.
Message:
Surely the claims above about M could be made by MANY other
teachers, right?

>Anybody can claim anything.

What I am trying to get at is that any idea that M is 'the perfect master of the time' holds equally for many others, even if you think that there is such a thing. Do you agree with that?

>It has supposedly always been thus at times in history when a Messiah or teacher is expected.

Also, to any premies out there, doesn't self respect have to enter this at some point? I mean, you're already kissing his feet

>I had some initial resistance to darshan in my head at first, but then I read about how Moses put his head at the feet of his father-in-law when he entered his tent as a sign of respect and that took the edge off. I definitely don't see it the same as I used to.

and supporting his pets in hollywood dog college (see above). How far are you willing to go?

>I didn't know about the dog college. Are you shitting me?
That's one expensive lila while I am sweating it out $$$-wise.
I have to read that one.

Take care Saul.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 20:53:19 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: of Zen sticks, etc.
Message:
OK shp. To be honest, this still seems evasive to me. Let me
concentrate on one question.

Referring to M's claims to be the unique one and only perfect master of the time alive now on earth, I say:

Surely the claims above about M could be made by MANY other
teachers, right?

...you respond:

>Anybody can claim anything.

But this doesn't answer the question at all. The question is whether you agree or not that you have no more reason to believe MJ's claims than a disciple of, say, Sai Baba, has to believe Sai Baba's claims?
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 01:11:16 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Saul, Gail, Jim, et al
Subject: zen-stick welts
Message:
>The question is whether you agree or not that you have no more reason to believe MJ's claims than a disciple of, say, Sai Baba, has to believe Sai Baba's claims?

I don't know about Sai Baba very much. I do know that he allegedly makes things like precious stones apprear in his hands from thin air. That's about all I know. And I know that Maharaji offers something called Knowledge that provides inner peace when practiced, some even referring to it as the kingdom of heaven.

I have thought and felt for 20 years that he is the One. Regardless of his pr shifts. Logical? Maybe not. But I wouldn't have stuck around if I didn't think that. Shit man, why would I, a seeker of truth, leave a monastic life vow to Jesus ('past perfect master') for anything less than to be with the 'living perfect master'? I had asked God to let me in on it if the Lord was on the planet long before I met Maharaji, so when I ran into premies back in '73-'74 in southern Illinois, I was primed for what they had to say, and with great enthusiasm, I might add.
Saul, here are my mental sticking points for my not dropping out.
Call them obstacles or call them (until now) unspoken things I still believe may be true:

1) The 'Lord' can do whatever he wants with his premies.
(This is sounding wierd even as I write it.)

2) Conventional 20th century rules of conduct don't apply to him.
(So does this sound a bit strange.)

3) Regardless of the 'one life' satsangs, we have all been here before and are settling up with past scores.
(But the Grace is supposed to wash old shit away...no more karma)

4) Inertia
(mine)

5) All the bones to pick with Maharaji on this site might be considered 'small potatoes', compared to a planet coming into a very cataclysmic, very heavy time with major changes, from continents rising and falling to nuclear incidents here and there, to global famines, wars, etc., with the hope of a remnant of humanity left to go on as humans.
(This holds me the most, maybe from all the sci-fi, or from all the scriptures I have checked out, or from a gut feeling, like livestock gathering under a tree before a storm or birds flying low ...I have sensed a feeling of choppy, unchartered waters for all of us up ahead, a time of great global upheaval and change, and I have considered Knowledge and Maharaji my shelter from that impending storm for the last 20 or so years. As I said in other posts to the question of 'why him?' The timing of meeting up with him in my life, certain unexplainable 'coincidences' that would suggest he 'knew' me even in a crowd he was speaking to by what he said, and other triggers that are very subtle but deep. (And I know there are 'experts' who break all these phenomenas down and show the alleged brain-drain effect on masses.)

You and others here have challenged me to look again, and I am.
It's late and I gotta rest. This is not an evasion. See ya later.
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 03:30:32 (EST)
From: Saul
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: zen-stick welts
Message:
shp ol' friend!

I really appreciate your response - I don't find it evasive at all. In spite of your lack of 100% certain conclusions, I get the strong impression that, in any case, you are beyond any potential harm from the whole MJ thing (if you find yourself in doubt in the future, just remember that damn hollywood dog college!).

So besides all the guru junk, I hope you're having some great experiences and that the practical things in your life are working out all right too. Do you find any other teachings helpful besides MJ? I personally get alot of out of Thich Nhat Hanh's writings (he's a Buddist).

I'm not at all the type to worry about planetary cataclysms and things like that [incidentally, I think you're worrying about the wrong things - TB is much scarier than nuclear incidents], but, you know, I have to admit that all those 1999's are making me feel a little funny (partly in a good way). I've been to new year's parties but what are we supposed to do now? Maybe make millennial resolutions.

Cheers, Saul
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 12:45:38 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Saul
Subject: zen-stick splinters
Message:
Saul,

>Do you find any other teachings helpful besides MJ?

I like Stephen Gaskin's approach to life.

>I personally get alot of out of Thich Nhat Hanh's writings (he's a Buddist).

I have his book Peace is Every Step. My 14 year old reads it sometimes. Didn't he get murdered or something like that, by a homeless person he took in? Or was that somebody else?

Right now today I am reassessing my life and thinking about making some changes. Just read a post to me from Nimrod reaming me for something about hospitals and PT, and responded. I don't think Nimrod sees me very clearly through the pixels. Oh well.

Later.
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Date: Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 12:08:11 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Check out the TM site!
Message:
These people are just as angry about Depok Chopra and Mahareshi Mahesh Yogi as we are about MJ. These folks have been duped for lots of cash and psychologically damaged. Lots of them have become so dysfunctional that they can't work anymore. Their address is www.trancenet.org.
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Date: Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 21:07:49 (EST)
From: Alice
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Does anybody know T. Fortkamp?
Message:
I had a room mate in 1974 who lived with me for a year, here in Bozeman, MT. She went back to Ohio and joined Maharaji because her sister Angela was in it. Her name is Terry (Theresa) Fortkamp. The last I heard from her, she was still in it, although now she is married and has twin daughters. I could tell that her maturity had been stunted, and basically, now in our 40's, she is still the twenty year old I knew back in the 70's.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 19:56:16 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Happy New Year
Message:
I want to wish you all a Happy New Year and thank you for your posts of the last year. I really enjoy reading your comments and thoughts. I appreciate those of you who are willing to share the joys and pains of your lives.
To the premies, lurkers, and EV Monitors, even the folks over at Premie Pravda, maybe this will be the year that you start thinking for yourself and really enjoy life! I think that the penultimate year of the millenium may be one of great change for many of us; I know that it will be for me (I'm not being psychic or anything, I will be finishing school and starting a new position in another country) and I hope that it is a year of growth and prosperity for everyone! Happy New Year and Happy Fresh Breath!!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 20:32:54 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Happy New Year
Message:
Hey Mick...
Happy New Year..to you and all the ggod folks at ex~premie.org...all you guys and gals are doing a great service..keep the faith...peace ...your friend...david m
ps...anybody out there want to take over for me im security for my daughters 17th b-day party...wooooooto much for me...bye
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 07:53:10 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: david m
Subject: Happy New Year
Message:
Dear Mickey, David and all,
Although I am not here as much as I'd like I think this is a great place because of the hard work of Brian and Katie of course but also because of the people. You are wonderful. I feel like listing but I am to tired, not done sleeping yet!
When do you start your new job, Mickey. I want to say we'll miss you but we won't will we? :) I hope not.
David, I don't know why I thought your 17yr old was a boy. I bet we could 'talk'! Hope everything went well.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 22:46:10 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Happy New Year
Message:
So Happy New Year to you too, Mickey.
The best of everything to you.
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 03:39:53 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Happy New Year
Message:
Glad you said 'joys and pains'. I remember in ancient premiedom it was uncool to talk too much about pain in life. It seems that this trait has been taken to its most absurd extreme on the enjoyinglife.org site with any mention of suffering being completely banned.

All premies are NOT having a good time. They didn't in the past and they aren't now. Glad that anyone who is experiencing pain in their life can write about it here and get a sympathetic and carefully considered response.
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 09:59:08 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Sir David/Mickey
Subject: Happy New Year
Message:
Great point, David. The fact that you mentioned pain as well as joy, Mickey, indicates that you must be a good minister. After all, life is full of sorrows and losses and suffering that don't go away just by 'remembering holy name'.
I'll never forget what me very astute hubby had to say about GM: 'He wants to be a rock star, not a minister.' Just look at his lack of support and outreach to the families of those who committed suicide. What a cold hearted bastard.
Well, congrats on your new job, Mickey, and happy new year to you both.
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 15:37:29 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Happy New Year
Message:
'...there is no truth so profound, no conviction so sacred, no fact so certain that it is immune to repeated critical review. There are no theologies or sciences without question marks trailing behind. And there is no institution that can guarantee the truth of anything. We are all pilgrims in a wondrous and strange land of latent possibilities and unknown potential.'-Robert W. Funk

Happy New Year, everyone!
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 19:32:06 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Happy New Year
Message:
You too Mickey. Have a wonderful year. I have your tape by the way. I like 'I found God in the Doorway' hee hee.
I'll bet you did.
I found him outside a vegie restaurant in South Phili once. We all pramaned. Can you imagine? Sout Phili? Italian Catholic? We are lucky to be alive. The neighbors did come out and yell at us. But I was so very bleeeeeseed out I deeedn't noteece.
bleagh.
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 19:38:48 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mickey the P
Subject: Happy New Year
Message:
uh, maybe it had a different title? anyway I liked it. Didn't mean any disrespect if I gave it the wrong title ( just looked at the liner )
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 16:51:45 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Help -- AFF
Message:
As I said in a post below, I get the AFF newsletter, which regularly reports on cults, however, I haven't seen Maharaji's cult mentioned in a number of years. I recall that about 12 years ago, the parent of a deprogrammed premie was on the board of the organization, which was then called 'Cult Awareness Network' which was bankrupted by Scientology, by the way. I sent them an e-mail ponting out this website, but I think it might help if over exes did so as well.

I think if they got a number of e-mails from ex-members of the cult, pointing out the website, I think they might advertise it in their newsletter and maybe discuss it at their conventions and seminars. Anyway, anyone who is willing to send an e-mail, asking that they cover Maharaji and his cult (they will also put you on their mailing list), the address is:

aff@worldnet.all.net

Their newsletter says to send cult-related news stories (if there ever ARE any) to the editor at: scriveners@aol.com.

[Maybe Brian or someone could send that Australian newspaper article to them until some publication, somewhere, FINALLY does an expose.]
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 17:31:35 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Help -- AFF
Message:
Are you saying AFF is the same as Cult Awareness Network? There was a 20/20 or 60 minutes program last week on Scientology, where they described how the Scientology group bankrupted CAN and then took it over- the irony being when you call them to complain about a cult, you are talking to one!

I was struck on how tenacious they are. Now if a premie could get them really pissed off-hmmmmm...
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 19:27:28 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Help -- AFF
Message:
Yes dv. I read a similar article. I would be happy to support AFF if they are differnt from CAN. But otherwise I don't dare. I don't want to support Scientology, even if I do like John Travolta. He is really into Scientology I gather. (another article read waiting for the doctor Tuesday) One good thing about being sick a lot, you read stuff you wouldn't otherwise. ..cold comfort I suppose, but hey, it's New Years.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 16:43:50 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hare Krishnas -- Like Premies?
Message:
I joined AFF (American Freedom Foundation) and so I get their newsletter The Cult Observer. This month has an article about the Hare Krishnas, that says the following:

The Hare Krishna movement [International Society for Krishna Consciousness - ISKCON] ... in the U.S. only about 800 live full-time in the group's 45 American spiritual communities, or ashrams, down from an estimated 10,000 in the late 1970s. Most now live and work in the secular world. There are no more boarding schools in the U.S., and many Krishna families now send their children to public schools. And whereas most U.S. followers were 'Anglo' converts to Hinduism, about half today are recent immigrants from India and elsewhere in Asia. The movement's greatest growth in recent years has been in Eastern Europe, India and Nepal...(New York Times, 10/09/98)

Sound slightly familiar? Isn't this kind of like how Maharaji's cult has evolved? I don't think he has paid much attention to Eastern Europe, however, probably not enough money there.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 17:01:30 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Hare Krishnas -- Like Premies?
Message:
Last summer there was a little Hare Krishna shindig in a public area and I happened by. There were booths with items for sale, food for a donation, information and pictures about PapaDoo.

The majority of the participants were definitely Indian. However, the Americans were on stage doing all the singing. It was pretty pathetic to such a small gathering and see only one person dancing. The majority of people attending were the local homeless. Everyone was trying so hard. The glory days are over and the goldrush is gone.

Would the last person leaving the cult please turn off the lights?

One of the exhibits highlighted a food feed program that the Krishnas put on somewhere in the former Soviet Union (aka Eastern Europe?) where pensioners were pretty much starving to death.

At least you can say this about them:

- The song has a good beat and you can dance to it, Dick
- They got good food
- At least they did some humanitarian good works
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 22:29:11 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: barney
Subject: Did you ever hear...
Message:
Quintessence?

UK Krishna band. (Whatever happened to them? Probably insurance salesmen by now)

Very listenable in a hash-hazed happy memory sort of way.
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 08:40:04 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Notting Hill Gate
Message:
My god Nigel, you & Syd between you are bringing back some old & buried memories.

When I first dropped acid, for about the first year, they were OUR band, can remember the graphics on the fold-out cover of their second album being opened up at the start of our trips as a visual trigger. Funnily enough we called the 'feeling'/'reality' underlying it all, as experiencing 'knowledge'!
Them and Mighty Baby, remember them!?

Quintessence broke up around '74-'75, if I remember rightly, they would have had to have done a Jefferson Starship to have survived any longer. Quintessence v punk, only ever gonna be one winner in that scrap!
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 03:40:03 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: barney
Subject: Hare Krishnas -- Like Premies?
Message:
Dear Barney,
'Would the last person leaving the cult please turn off the lights?'
This is priceless! :)

I also have to agree with you here.: Although I don't know Dick. :)

- The song has a good beat and you can dance to it, Dick
- They got good food
- At least they did some humanitarian good works

Once in New York City, for BM's father's day parade a group of us went to a Hare Krishnan ashram for dinner. One of our group had spent a short time with their group before he found the 'true' way. Haha. He knew the food would be good and free and it was. In exchange we went to their 'service'. Yes I think they were very much like premies, maybe just a bit more self rightous(sp) as they were a more firmly established 'way'.
Happy New Year!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 21:10:33 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: JW
Subject: Hare Krishnas? I love 'em
Message:
Joe,

Premies are smarter. I know that's what we would say anyway, but it's true. I collect the works of Srila Prabhupada (I mean - who wouldn't?) as a bit of a hobby - you might even get a fairly good cookbook with a blue-skinned god on the cover if you smile appreciatively when that western slaphead with the stupid grin next accosts you on a city corner.

But for one thing, Prabhupada's books are really funny - especially on the subject of evolution. Remember GMJ's 'dead seeds' satsang? The 'monkey bones' and 'hairy humans' stuff?
Prabhupad's are like that all the time. He's my favourite, in fact. GMJ may be stupid, but the Krishna's main man was REALLY stupid.

Though SP died twenty years ago, his teachings live on. Sadly, his faithful baldy-men are in disarray:

Check out: http://www-ece.rice.edu/~vivek/fwr/nonew.html
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 21:14:22 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: nigel
Subject: But don't forget...
Message:
The Krishnas run mobile soup kitchens for the homeless. No strings attached. I raise my glass...
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 03:48:28 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: nigel
Subject: But don't forget...
Message:
Dear Nigel,
Yes, if BM did something nice/needed/meaningful/helpful/caring for a single person or group it would help some, eh? God the guy is from India, wouldn't have to think long on some damn group he could help out! Sheesh! What a shit head. Before I go off...
Happy New Year to you and yours, Nigel, and the 'whole gang'! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 15:28:20 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: But don't forget...
Message:
Nigel: I vaguely remember SP's nickname: froggie. One magazine (life, Time, whatever) referred to him as the Billy Graham of Hindu philosophy.... supposedly upset SP alot when he heard that. ;-)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 22:18:02 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Monkey on a Stick
Message:
Joe,

Strong parallels indeed. By the way, have you ever read Monkey on a Stick the expose of the Krishnas? Great story about how Prabupad first came to New York, started his trip, how they got rich, pweroful and AMAZINGLY corrupt. Rampant child abuse, drug running (coke under their kurtas)a nd, oh yeah, murder. And what happened after he died was whacky. 10 'gurus' took over the world mission and split it up geographically. Major internecine warfare.

I 'articled' with a lawyer here in Victoria in order to get 'called' to the B.C. bar. He'd been retained by one of the ten gurus who was living a fairly quiet life here then. Apparently, Rolling Stone had written something critical of him and he wanted Bob to sue it for defamation. Thus they met several times and he told Bob his whole life story.

At the time he was living with his wife and two die-hard devotees he couldn't get rid of. Anyway, he split in the middle of the night at one point with a younger woman. Moved to London and started an acid-enhanced mincult in which his follwoers would dose and chant their asses off. Back home the wife was festering in anger. This rubbed off on the two 'devotees' who eventually went to London to find their now former master. They did. I think he was in the midst of one of his psychedelic services when they came up behind him and lopped his head off.

Happy New Year!
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 02:55:16 (EST)
From: bill --The bus came by
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And I got on
Message:
I rode a krishna bus for a day and they would go to a shopping
area and put on wigs and clothes over thier indian garb and
go sell incense and books.
Their bus came with a huge alter and the head guy would
quote and explain thier ideas.
I finally figured out the question I wanted answered and it was:
why do you chant?
The answer:
We chant the hare krishna 750 times a day because khrishna
said always remember my name.

There was another guy on the bus and while the krishnas
were off selling, I told him about guru maharaj ji
and he go off the bus, came to my house, went to satsang,
went back to michigan, recieved knowledge, wrote me to tell me,
and after a while spaced out.

Dang those half-aspirants
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 16:08:44 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Voted Best Site in 1998!
Message:
It's probably time to start thinking about getting advertisers and their banners because www.ex-premie.org is incredible!

Brian and Katie and everyone, thank you for your efforts!

And at the very least we need to give the premie apologists multi-lifetime free membership because from time to time we need to be corrected when we get the facts wrong.

Sure, we're just a small, small inconsequential group of failed malcontents saying the same thing over and over again, but damn, it's so funny and entertaining.

All the suffering I endured as a premie now has value because I can read and understand this on-going saga. The UFO, Abducted By Aliens, and every other conspiracy website has nothing in comparison to what we've seen.

In fact, this site is so good that the only thing that I can really look forward to in 1999 is www.maharaji.org and the ELK site turning on the Chat Room!


Happy New Bad Breath!
Happy New Year!


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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 08:13:26 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: barney
Subject: Voted Best Site in 1998!
Message:
Dear Barney,
I agree! That reporter who 'stopped by' some time ago for an article was impressed with this site. I think it is so good because we are EX's so there is none of that mindless cult drivel.
Happy New Year, Barney and all!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 12:20:03 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Voted Best Site in 1998!
Message:
I've been checking out the other ex-cult sites. This one has them beaten hands down (it kicks ---). Great work, guys, but don't get too into your mind. Remember it is only BY HIS GRACE.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 12:58:09 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Is this guy for real?
Message:
Here's another 'expression' from ELK. Isn't this guy m's valet? He sounds like 3CPO from Star Wars:

'Patrick McCracken
Malibu, Ca, USA

Surprise

Once again Maharaji has brought me a sweet surprise. His new web site is impeccable and a kind promise of more inspiration to come!

Thank you Maharaji for everything and Happy new year!'
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 17:10:28 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Is this guy for real?
Message:
Yes he is M's valet.
I remember him from the Amtext shindig I attended at the residence.
He stood dutifully behind M, with serviette in hand,ready to protect his master...from a fly that was buzzing around the goomster's head.(Hey, common Patrick, ligten up!Don't you know that even the tiniest of insects are attracted to the Divine horror...oops, I meant aura...of the perfect goomster of our time?)
Anyways,Patrick didn't really 'socialize' at the party(he was preoccupied with his 'service'),so I din't get to really know him.
But judging from his ELK post...there may not be much there to know.
Hey Jim,this is off-track,but I was hoping you could do me this favor.You see, in a few hours its going to be a new year,the holiday season is just about over...and well..I haven't received my x-mas gift from the Amtext office...I mean ...NOTHING... not even a dorky pen with my name on it!! You know, I used to receive x-mas gifts from the Brogans themselves,but it seems this year Ferret Face and Gofer Boy have fucked off on their annual scuba diving vacation in the Caymans...and have I received my x-mas gift from them?...NOOOOOOO!!!
So Jim, if you get a chance, can you please phone the Amtext office for me and find out what the fuck is going on?I mean its a little embarrasing for me, and I'm sure you can handle this situation with alot more tact than I can.
Oh, by the way, its toll free to the Amtext office-1-800-489-8485.
And Jim, if you don't get a chance to do this ... well that will be cool too...I probably don't need the their stupid ' gifts ' anymore.
Anyways Jim, you and Laurie have a great New Year! All the best!!!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 17:25:03 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nimrod
Subject: I tried
Message:
Nim?

Jim.

I tried to call the number but it won't work from my area. But, Nim, I am a lawyer and, as you know, deeply committed to righting all wrongs in the world. This is an injustice that doesn't sit pretty with me, let me tell you. As Buddha himself said, 'Amtext is a tree the fruits of which blossom for everyone.' And Jesus -- it was Jesus, wasn't it, Mickey? -- 'I gave you this business to turn a decent profit, learn a bit about recycling and take care of one another.' It's that last part we all seem to forget so quickly.

You have a good night as well, Nim. Best you can in the circumstances, I guess.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 18:58:26 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I tried
Message:
'And Jesus -- it was Jesus, wasn't it, Mickey? -- 'I gave you this business to turn a decent profit, learn a bit about recycling and take care of one another.''

Jim, I checked this passage in the Jesus Seminar book, and it was printed in grey ink. However, the following passage was in pink:
'Verily I say unto you, if thou shalt turnest a decent profit, thou must say the following on Friday nights: 'B-8, I-15, N-23,
G-31, O-44. What's that in the back? Sister, please check her card.' Whenever ye do this, do this in rememberance of me.'
Happy New Year, Jim.
Mickey
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 19:02:34 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oops!!!
Message:
Sorry Jim , I gave you the wrong number for the Amtext office.Geez, see what happens when you lose touch with people?
This is the correct number for the Amtext office,again toll-free...1-800-845-4646.
Jim, there's no rush here... take your time.But I know you'll enjoy talking to these guys when you get a chance.
And yeah, I'll make the best of it...under the circumstances.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 12:02:24 (EST)
From: nofool
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: wasted time
Message:
After looking through the information M makes available and talking to many who have come under his spell the only thing that comes to mind is that what M calls knowledge is foolishness and wasted time. How mant people reading this came to the same conclusion after wasting far too much time?????
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 13:13:17 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: nofool
Subject: wasted time
Message:
20 yars off and on. Mostly off in terms of participation. But it still sat there influencing the way I looked at the world around me. That's more insidious, to me, than actual hours wasted. Well, it's the same thing really isn't it?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 14:13:02 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: keep off the grass
Message:
24 years for this fool on and off, in and out

I agree with Selene that the worst part is absorbing Maharaji's stunted philosphy (phrase attributed to JW)

I remember one video and BM is talking about an outdoor park and seeing people sitting on the grass and BM wants to sit on the grass too, but he knows better about that dirty grass because maybe other people had walked on it. Sure, there's parks with grass that I wouldn't sit on either, but BM came off as so out of touch with the masses where he is so insulated from the realities of real living. Going way out on a limb, I'd say that most people don't have a fortress on a mountaintop in Malibu that is kept immaculate by slave labor.

I wonder if Maharaji knows what a supermarket checkout scanner is.
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 03:57:36 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: barney
Subject: keep off the grass
Message:
Someone should perhaps tell the Lord that by constantly trying to avoid germs, he is actually making himself more prone to illness when he does actually encounter them. Germs are good for you Maharaji, they develope your resistence against illness.

It seems that the Lord's view on life is typical of a rather immature person coming from a poor country to the western world. He is remarkably immature for his age and a total sociopath, in my view. Anyone who does follow him will have their lives severely restricted and damaged.

Yes he is a complete waste of time and I regret the years I spent following his irresponsible bullshit. It did me no good at all and as said above, his programming lasts longer and is more difficult to get out of one's system. In short, he's an insidious, selfish little creep.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 14:25:49 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: nofool
Subject: wasted time
Message:
I received Knowledge in 1980, Nofool. I've practiced on and off since then, sometimes dedicating myself to the process, but it never materialized into anything desirable.

Yes, it was a waste of time.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 11:09:13 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: nofool
Subject: Huh?
Message:
NF:

How many people reading this came to the same conclusion after wasting far too much time?????

You mean... I won't be a commissioned officer when I get into heaven????? :(

-Scott
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 10:39:58 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Huh?
Message:
Scott: NO, you won't be Captain Ashtar..... sorry ;-)
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