Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 34

From: Dec 30, 1998

To: Jan 12, 1999

Page: 5 Of: 5



barney -:- Billions served! -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 03:34:17 (EST)
__Selene -:- Billions served! -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 03:48:25 (EST)
____barney -:- Baragon schemes & dreams -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:05:21 (EST)
______Gail -:- Baragon schemes & dreams -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 10:47:47 (EST)
______shp -:- Baragon schemes & dreams -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 23:48:46 (EST)
________Gail -:- Hey JM Varnet T-shirts -:- Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 21:14:26 (EST)
__________Jean-Michel -:- Not me! Monika L did it! -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 03:38:09 (EST)
____________Gail -:- Yes We Have No Bannanas -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 12:16:15 (EST)
__Orlando -:- why? -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 08:31:02 (EST)
____barney -:- why? marketing purposes! -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 13:46:49 (EST)
______Orlando -:- why? marketing purposes! -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 14:16:56 (EST)
____Selene -:- why? -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 19:37:02 (EST)
__JW -:- Billions served! -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 14:24:49 (EST)
____barney -:- bad, bad baragons -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 14:31:01 (EST)
______dv -:- I love my baragon. -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 15:33:31 (EST)
______Gail -:- bad, bad baragons -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 16:26:39 (EST)
________syd -:- bad, bad baragons -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 02:53:31 (EST)
__________barney -:- that was funny! (nt) -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 04:09:51 (EST)
____________syd -:- only if you believe -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 04:55:33 (EST)
______JW -:- bad, bad baragons -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 16:57:38 (EST)
________barney -:- bad, bad baragons -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 17:27:01 (EST)
____VP -:- Billions served! -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 23:58:31 (EST)
____Joy -:- Billions served! -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 00:35:34 (EST)
____Mike -:- Billions served! -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 15:51:02 (EST)

Selene -:- grateful alive, for 99 -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 02:45:16 (EST)
__Katie -:- grateful alive, for 99 -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 03:04:52 (EST)
__Orlando -:- grateful alive, for 99 -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 08:21:06 (EST)
__Selene -:- grateful alive, for 99 -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 13:19:52 (EST)
__Jim -:- grateful alive, for 99 -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 13:22:45 (EST)
____Selene -:- grateful alive, for 99 -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 18:10:09 (EST)
______nigel -:- from me too... -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 18:49:15 (EST)
________Selena, for you -:- from me too... -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 18:38:15 (EST)
__Veep -:- grateful alive, for 99 -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 17:00:27 (EST)
____Selene -:- grateful alive, for 99 -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 18:40:30 (EST)
______VP -:- Happy Anniversary to us -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 22:28:16 (EST)

Jim -:- Any day now, Sandy -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 00:34:50 (EST)
__Runamok -:- Any day now, Sandy -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 02:16:36 (EST)
__Passing thru -:- Any way now, Jim -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 02:20:04 (EST)
____Gail -:- Nothing wrong with my ears -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 02:35:37 (EST)
______Selene -:- Nothing wrong with my ears -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 02:51:03 (EST)
________Gail -:- Nothing wrong with my ears -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 03:30:11 (EST)
__________Selene -:- Nothing wrong with my ears -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 03:38:33 (EST)
__________barney -:- Arti, the dirge for the mind -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 03:52:31 (EST)
________bill -:- Nothing wrong with my ears -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 11:29:03 (EST)
________Passing thru -:- Exactly Selene -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 04:49:21 (EST)
______Passing thru -:- But you need brains as well.. -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 04:44:55 (EST)
________Ben Lurking -:- But you need brains as well.. -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 11:38:31 (EST)
__________Passing thru -:- But Ben.. -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 18:39:10 (EST)
________Gail -:- Dear Passing Thru: -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 14:05:40 (EST)
__________Passing thru -:- Dear Gail -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 18:32:53 (EST)
____________Gail -:- PT: Why not use your brains? -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:16:06 (EST)
______________Gail -:- PT please take the CULT TEST? -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:20:11 (EST)
______________shp -:- say what? -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 01:36:58 (EST)
________________Mike -:- Right on, shp! -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 17:33:41 (EST)
________bill -:- That is a very low remark pt -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 17:21:47 (EST)
__________Passing thru -:- I'm serious Bill.. -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 18:45:18 (EST)
____________Gail -:- Arti has not been dropped -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:28:35 (EST)
____________bill -:- I'm serious Bill.. -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 21:59:55 (EST)
____________Helen -:- Allegory -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 22:25:38 (EST)
______________Passing thru -:- All care taken Helen -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 05:01:47 (EST)
________________Helen -:- All care taken Helen -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 18:46:57 (EST)
____________jethro -:- I'm serious Bill.. -:- Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 04:48:28 (EST)
____________Mike -:- Without M's knowledge????? -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 16:32:38 (EST)
________Jean-Michel -:- Rawat never joined the premies -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 06:30:34 (EST)
__________Passing thru -:- Rawat is a premie -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 18:47:36 (EST)
________Mike -:- But you need brains as well.. -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 16:02:10 (EST)
____Brian -:- Try this, PT -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 10:35:38 (EST)
______Passing thru -:- Almost got it..Brian -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 05:15:14 (EST)
________Jerry -:- You'll never get it, Pt -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 18:29:24 (EST)
____bill -:- Right stuff that madeit clear? -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 11:24:26 (EST)
______Passing thru -:- Knowledge teaches the Knowledg -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 05:20:01 (EST)
________hamzen -:- Knowledge teaches the Knowledg -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 08:58:23 (EST)
__________Passing thru -:- Knowledge teaches .. -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 18:53:18 (EST)
____________hamzen -:- Knowledge teaches .. -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 21:34:19 (EST)
________bill -:- PT -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 17:17:45 (EST)
__________Passing thru -:- Yes Bill, -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 18:57:10 (EST)
____________hamzen -:- Yes Bill, -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 21:41:35 (EST)
____________bill -:- Yes Bill, -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 22:16:13 (EST)
________Jean-Michel -:- meditation teaches m's BS -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 06:40:15 (EST)
__________Sir David -:- meditation teaches m's BS -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 13:04:08 (EST)
____________Jean-Michel -:- meditation teaches m's BS -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 13:39:30 (EST)
______________Sir David -:- meditation teaches m's BS -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 14:16:17 (EST)
________________Sir D again -:- By the way -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 14:28:05 (EST)
________________Jean-Michel -:- meditation teaches m's BS -:- Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 12:52:22 (EST)
__________Passing thru -:- meditation teaches -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:08:15 (EST)
____________Mike -:- meditation teaches -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 17:42:56 (EST)
________Mike -:- I have the proper perspective -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 16:38:00 (EST)
____Gail -:- PT--MJ needs blow-up dolls -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 23:24:35 (EST)
______Sir David -:- PT--MJ needs blow-up dolls -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 23:40:02 (EST)
__shp -:- reply to jim from shp -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 11:51:41 (EST)
____Jim -:- reply to jim from shp -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 12:11:24 (EST)
______Runamok -:- the jim/shp controversy -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 12:51:03 (EST)
________shp -:- your perfect alarm clock -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 00:16:23 (EST)
__________VP -:- Buy your favorite premie... -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 01:02:22 (EST)
______Passing thru -:- A little correction Jim -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 05:26:45 (EST)
________Gail -:- Are you kidding, PT? -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 14:46:41 (EST)
__________Passing thru -:- No kidding Gail -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:16:07 (EST)
________bill -:- read Jims 1976 letter PT -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 22:10:06 (EST)
________VP -:- A little correction Jim -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 00:55:40 (EST)
__________Passing thru -:- A little correction VP -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:19:09 (EST)
____________Jim -:- More bad thinking, PT -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 23:45:52 (EST)
________Mike -:- No ONE did! -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 17:59:44 (EST)
____Helen -:- SHP--did you read post from -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 12:46:12 (EST)
______shp -:- reply from the beyond -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 13:03:29 (EST)
________Helen -:- reply from the beyond -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 13:32:28 (EST)
__________nigel -:- We're all waiting to tango... -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 18:26:26 (EST)
____________dv -:- 3rd World Exploitation -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 18:35:32 (EST)
______________nigel -:- good idea. dv -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 18:55:07 (EST)
____________Passing thru -:- What response Nigel... -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 05:31:03 (EST)
______________nigel -:- What response Nigel... -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 16:09:16 (EST)
________________Mike -:- NOW THAT WAS FUNNY! -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 18:08:16 (EST)
____________Helen -:- We're all waiting to tango... -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 09:37:54 (EST)
__________shp -:- which two to tango -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 22:56:34 (EST)
____________Helen -:- Don't evade the moral ? -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 09:44:08 (EST)
______________shp -:- prayer, good and evil -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 10:20:30 (EST)
________________helen -:- prayer, good and evil -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 10:30:38 (EST)
__________________shp -:- reply -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 13:08:13 (EST)
____________________Helen -:- reply -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 16:31:01 (EST)
________________ham -:- prayer, good and evil -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 11:24:37 (EST)
__________________shp -:- questions unanswered? -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 12:59:42 (EST)
____________________ham -:- questions unanswered? -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 13:57:15 (EST)
______________________shp -:- ham reprint with answers -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:31:09 (EST)
________________________hamzen -:- ham reprint with answers -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 23:01:43 (EST)
________________________ham -:- thanks for looking it up (nt) -:- Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 00:06:53 (EST)
__________________shp -:- reply to ham & everyone -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 13:29:34 (EST)
________________Jerry -:- prayer, good and evil -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 19:28:30 (EST)
__________________shp -:- reply to Jerry -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 13:13:24 (EST)
____________________Jerry -:- reply to shp -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 15:15:31 (EST)
______________________barney -:- TM meditation - no waiting -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 17:12:47 (EST)
______________________shp -:- reply to jerry -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:54:58 (EST)
________________________Gail -:- reply to jerry -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 21:59:15 (EST)
________________________Jerry -:- reply to shp -:- Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 00:11:13 (EST)
______________________Mike -:- Oh, Jerry.... was it good for -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 18:30:54 (EST)
____________________Jim -:- That's absurd, shp -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 17:22:14 (EST)
________________Gail -:- How did MJ do it all? -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 14:20:36 (EST)
__________________Gail -:- TAKE THE CULT TEST, SHP! -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 16:36:53 (EST)
____________________shp -:- shp takes the cult test -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 20:39:01 (EST)
______________________Mike -:- Happy New Year, shp -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 17:23:31 (EST)
________________________shp -:- Happy New Year, Mike -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 17:56:45 (EST)
__________________________Mike -:- Ok, let me put it this way -:- Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 18:52:34 (EST)
__________________Helen -:- How did MJ do it all? -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 16:59:05 (EST)
____________________shp -:- reply -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 20:42:11 (EST)
__________________shp -:- How did MJ do it all? -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 20:08:16 (EST)
____________________Gail -:- Gotta love ya, SHP? -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 21:43:30 (EST)

Jim -:- Eran (or Yuron?) - anyone? -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 15:41:30 (EST)
__Jethro -:- Eran (or Yuron?) - anyone? -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 15:53:19 (EST)
____Jim -:- Eran (or Yuron?) - anyone? -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 15:58:41 (EST)
______Helen -:- Eran (or Yuron?) - anyone? -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 22:47:04 (EST)
________eb -:- Eran (or Yuron?) - anyone? -:- Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 23:36:19 (EST)
______Jethro -:- Eran (or Yuron?) - anyone? -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 01:53:05 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- Eran (or Yuron?) = Yoram Weisz -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:38:08 (EST)
______bill -:- Eran (or Yuron?) = Yoram Weisz -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 11:38:08 (EST)
________Jean-Michel -:- Eran (or Yuron?) = Yoram Weisz -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 05:15:57 (EST)
__bill -:- Yuron________ and Yurim wiess -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 01:12:53 (EST)
__barney -:- we had our own version -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 03:10:25 (EST)
____ham -:- mr jedbury I presume -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 03:59:10 (EST)
______barney -:- mr jedbury I presume -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:35:30 (EST)
__John -:- Minor cult in D.C. -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 09:56:06 (EST)
____JW -:- Minor cult in D.C. -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 15:05:58 (EST)
______dv -:- Minor cult in D.C. -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 15:38:39 (EST)
__ex-mug -:- Eran (or Yuron?) - anyone? -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 11:40:13 (EST)
____Jim -:- Hey, let's just meditate a bit -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 12:52:48 (EST)
______John -:- warning, more satsang -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 13:49:18 (EST)
________Helen -:- HA! -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 16:30:07 (EST)
__________John -:- HA! to you -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 05:46:11 (EST)
____________Hellion -:- Zat vas zen, this is now -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 11:47:01 (EST)
____________Gail -:- Good post, John (nt) -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 12:18:00 (EST)
______barney -:- Jim's been reading ELK ilk -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 15:13:33 (EST)
______syd -:- Hey, let's just meditate a bit -:- Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 04:26:22 (EST)
______op -:- Hey, let's just meditate a bit -:- Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 00:33:33 (EST)
__dv -:- Eran (or Yuron?) - anyone? -:- Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 11:40:38 (EST)


Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 03:34:17 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Billions served!
Message:
PT states below that Maharaji has given Knowledge to hundreds of thousands over the past 30 years.

First, is this true?

Sure, I know that BM proudly shows charts and graphs of how many people he gave Knowledge to. And, I know that he likes to brag about giving K to some 5 thousand people at one time like some Reverand Moon wedding. However, it don't take no rocket scientist to figure that the bulk of these numbers are coming from India.

Second, how many are still around? How many actually meditate?

I do remember a few years ago in my community that some people did get Knowledge. I'd see them at videos afterwards and soon their attendance became more and more sporadic until finally vanished into thin air. Of course, I really don't know what happened to them. It would have appeared that about 10 people might have gotten Knowledge and appeared that maybe one or two became regulars.

Third, how many in India?

I'm rather curious about the numbers that keep coming out of India. Back in the old days and, I believe, stated in one of the propaganda films that there were some 3 million followers in India.

Now, I don't want to come off as some elitist Westerner, but I do remember years ago when BM gave the Indians holy hell for not really practicing or something to that effect (the Bangle satsang?) It sounded like in India that getting Knowledge was a fairly easy and common thing to do and required no great effort nor real commitment. And, basically everyone in India has a Guru anyway.

So, what's the skinny? What's the dope on this? How is the business doing? Should I buy some woodworking equipment and start selling baragons on the Internet?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 03:48:25 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Billions served!
Message:
I had a dream about that baragon business last night Barney. I kid you not. The dream ended more like a nightmare, I've had them all week - well, don't get into it. Technology stocks may be scary but they are still a safer bet.
Him and his numbers. Isn't the fact that he keeps publishing them sort of proof the whole thing is shallow? Why would god need pie charts to prove success? Or even the Scientology people? I don't think they even do that. but then, they have John Travolta.

damn! dont' you get sick of the spin? It' so obvious. I guess the good part is, we have found each other and I stay on here cause I like a lot of the people. What a difference a year makes! Really, my motivations were initially for help, now they are for entertainment and because I still need help but not as much.
And I like you guys!

Speaking of the damned barogans, didn't he discourage their use ? Did they come back in style in the revisionist 90's?

selene, glad someone else is awake
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:05:21 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Baragon schemes & dreams
Message:
Yes, baragons are verbotten. I still have mine from the seventies and until I took my sabbatical from meditating about a year and a half ago I continued to use it. Oh no, maybe that's why I was a failure at practicing Knowledge! I wasn't following the rules.

I remember during the 'ReSession' that I attended in Colorado in '86 or '87 BM strongly discouraged them, if not banned them. But, there was this one guy who asked BM if he could continue due to back problems. It was a very funny conversation because the guy was funny and probably didn't really have back problems and he wasn't gonna back down. BM finally gave in to him.

Yeah, the old ex-premie place is pretty fun. Where else can you talk about baragons and have people understand so much?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 10:47:47 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Baragon schemes & dreams
Message:
I continued to use a baragon, too. Anne Johnston was in my room one day and said, 'MJ hates baragons.' I told her that I liked it because it felt a lot more comfortable. You are right. They were banned in 1987 at the Rejoice Programs.

MJ should re-introduce them. He'd make a bundle. All the good premies burned their along with the old magazines and videos.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 23:48:46 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Baragon schemes & dreams
Message:
I take one of those corduroy back pillows with the little arms, ya know what I'm talkin' about over here? Then I flip it upside-down and backwards on my lap and presto! A soft baragon! After that rear-ender I was in back in '89, it ain't easy sittin' up for long periods of time.

I've seen some old Krishna book illustrations and I'd swear some of those characters are carrying baragons, too! Wonder what they did with them? Anyway, it worked for me. The pillow's even better.
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Date: Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 21:14:26 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hey JM Varnet T-shirts
Message:
Was it you who cooked up the deal between Varnet and the cult's 25th anniversary T-shirts. There was also a cup with that same logo supposedly made by Royal Doulton (they also made the Arise cups). Neither of these self-respecting companies wanted to put their name on the merchandise, but they took the cash.

Lovely trinkets! Does anyone need a woman's medium T-shirt with a matching cup. It makes me sick to look at this stuff. I think I'll bag it up and drop it off at someone's door who'll appreciate it.
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 03:38:09 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Not me! Monika L did it!
Message:
You might not believe it, but Monika Lewis has been in charge
of all the trinkets business for Visions!
I guess they've choose her because she has such a good taste after all ....
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 12:16:15 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Yes We Have No Bannanas
Message:
It looks like Monica Lewis has her fingers in all the pies, doesn't it? All the same Varnet and Royal Doulton make great products. It's too bad there's no way to scrape off the kaleidescope logo. I wonder if he made that himself.

Have you seen the latest catalogue? Visions is selling old- fashioned glasses with MJ's cartoon swan on them for those evenings when alchohol is the preferable medication? He designed the swan himself and it's soooooooooo beautiful. You can also buy swan-logo playing cards for those evenings when solitaire is preferable to meditation (remember when he said that?).

TO THE TUNE OF: YES, WE HAVE NO BANNANAS

Yes, we have no baragons.
We have no baragons today.
We've got glasses and candles
And Swatches and bangles
And Planners--we will make you pay.
Yes, we have no baragons.
We have no baragons today.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 08:31:02 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: why?
Message:
barney, why are you so interested?
by the way: nowadays (just to keep you up to date), not seeing someone at a video event is no indication on wether that person 'meditates' or not. same thing for India... there is no way to know who meditates and who does not...(even amongst people who DO go to video events!)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 13:46:49 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: why? marketing purposes!
Message:
I'm interested for a number of reasons:

When there's more premies than non-premies and ex-premies it will be time to switch sides and come down hard on all the heretics on this webpage! Afterall, pragmatism can save your butt and there may be a way to make some money.

Maharaji and premies have long used these numbers as part of their marketing scheme. Sure, it's not a key selling point, but it arises enough that some scrutiny into the validity of the numbers would be interesting. And it would be very interesting to see what the failure rate is in terms of people not giving Knowledge a chance and walking away forever.

I agree that it is impossible to determine how many active premies really meditate or not.

Please keep in mind that there are ex-premies that participate on the Forum that actually meditate. And one day I swear to God that I'll get my act together and resume that practice myself. I'm not sure what the consensus by the ex-premies here is on the value of meditation is, but it would be interesting to know and because I am by nature very sheep-like I would then adhere to what the majority indicates.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 14:16:56 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: why? marketing purposes!
Message:
You write:
'I agree that it is impossible to determine how many active premies really meditate or not.'

may i add:
it is also impossible to figure out how many 'active' premies there are (anyways, what is an 'active' premie)

But, anyhow, good luck in your new endeavours. (in 20 years from now, when you are finished counting, don't blame Maharaji for wasting your time!)

Happy new year (sincerely)
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 19:37:02 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: why?
Message:
He was answering my question! sheesh!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 14:24:49 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Billions served!
Message:
I wouldn't be surprised if perhaps 100,000 people in the world have received knowledge since 1971. I doubt it would be much higher than that. According to EV's own estimates, I think 266 people received knowledge in North America in 1997, and of those I don't know how many actually LIVED in North America. He really is finished in the West. His numbers are dwindling. I would wager a lot more than 266 premies became ex-premies in 1997. I think in 1996 EV claimed something like 75 people received knowledge in North America. [Geez, it might be that more premies than that committed SUICIDE in 1997 :) -- but certainly more than that split from his declining cult.]

He cancelled most of his tour in North America in 1998. He's really given up there if you ask me. When's the last time he did an introductory program in North America? And how many premies actually tell non-premies about Maharaji these days? I bet it is an exceedingly small number. Andy Perl's comments over at enjoyinglife are interesting in that regard. He basically said that the premies are confused about what or who they are supposed to say Maharaji is. Is he god, just a meditation teacher, a 'master' (and what does THAT mean), or something else? How do you explain that to someone who doesn't know about him? You're right, the marketing isn't down, because Maharaji himself is confused about how to present himself. He wants his cake and eat it too. He doesn't want to be seen as god for PR purposes, but he still wants the premies to devote to him as if he is. Very confused, and very hard to do any propogation when it's all that vague.

I think the propogation forumla is to just get someone to a video without telling them much about what it's about. The hope is that a percentage of them will hang on for the 6 months of watching videos and by that point want knowledge so badly that they will put up with the obvious contradictions, bullshit, and utterly simplistic teachings Maharaji presents. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear to be working.

However, it don't take no rocket scientist to figure that the bulk of these numbers are coming from India.

Very true. It appears that thousands really are receiving knowledge in India, and he also has a following in other countries with a substantial East Indian population, like Malaysia, Mauritius, South Africa, (Fiji until the Hindi population was expelled) and to some extent Britain.

One should keep in mind that Maharaji is still called a 'guru' in India, there are still ashrams there, and it's quite traditional for Indians to have SEVERAL gurus. It's much easier for M just to play the perfect master trip there, which he can't do in the west. It's just part of the culture and so there is likely more willingness of premies to tell non-premies about knowledge there. But I wouldn't be so sure that all those people in India receiving knowledge are all that devoted to Maharaji. They may well have other gurus as well.

Why did Maharaji ban baragons? Did he say why? What difference could it possibly make, if this knowledge is indeed divine, whether you use a baragon or not?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 14:31:01 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: bad, bad baragons
Message:
One of the reasons BM gave for the ban on baragons was becoming dependent on it and if you were travelling and at a hotel or whatever you might not meditate at all.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 15:33:31 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: I love my baragon.
Message:
It's the vaunted french model I purchased at Rome HJ 77'. Sleek carved wood, adjustable monopod, how proud I was when I got it, especially considering how hard it was to scrape up the 20 bucks in the shram!

Haven't used it in years, but I still can't let it go.

Bidding starts at $100.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 16:26:39 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: bad, bad baragons
Message:
Other reasons for the ban might be :

a) cult trip (everyone travelling with a B
b) make you uncomfortable during meditation
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 02:53:31 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Gail
Subject: bad, bad baragons
Message:
Seems a shame to have banned them when they can be so very useful sometimes.

I remember in Oxford ashram in '74, we were all out at a program in london one saturday night and the ashram secretary, who had been out in the town 'giving satsang' or something, probably in a bar or to some poor deluded dope smoker, arrived back to find that he had left his key inside and was locked out until we returned which would have been severral hours later. Naturally, being the ashram secretary and well on the way to 'realising the knowledge' he did the only spiritually-correct thing and used his baragon to smash a window to get in.

He was an ex jazz musician and used to play wild Charley Parker be-bop type solos on a flute during things like aarti - totally unreal! He also had a saxaphone and would practice in the bathroom at 3am some nights. The rest of us had to get up at 6am to meditate before going off to work whereas as secretary he had much more important service to do so didn't need to go out into the world with the rest of us. He used to meditate lying down, which he was able to do because he was so much more evolved than the rest of us, according to him :-)

Little guy with dark hair and a mustache, called Dick, ex-pat south african. Probably in his mid 30's then, I think. Dick, if you're out there, I think it's funny now, I don't want to thump you any more, honest :-)

Happy days. Can't imagine why I ever left.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 04:09:51 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: that was funny! (nt)
Message:
that was really funny!
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 04:55:33 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: barney
Subject: only if you believe
Message:
I told another premie about the mad midnight musical secretary a year or so later, after I'd left the ashram life but was still practicing. She just didn't believe it.

But I was there, this wasn't a rumour. And she was clearly oblivious to the fact that she was calling me a liar. Such is the innocence of youth. I just let it go by, what was the point arguing with someone who contradicted my personal experience? Anyway I was probably pretending to be Mr Spiritual Person to her.

We all used to just ignore and be in denial of anything that contradicted what we needed to believe.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 16:57:38 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: bad, bad baragons
Message:
Thanks, barney. It sounds like a stupid think to ban them, but, hey, he's the lord, right?

By the way, I take it you lived in Chicago? Is that correct? Do you know what happened to various people who were premies in Chicago? I left Chicago in early 1979, and saw a number of the people I knew show up in Miami, but most I have lost track of.

Are you still in Chicago? What happened to the Rainbow Grocery stores?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 17:27:01 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: bad, bad baragons
Message:
I left Chicago for Denver in 1977 and have been out of the loop for a long time.
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 23:58:31 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Billions served!
Message:
My guess about why baragons went is that they looked too weird and cultish. In the west, Maharaji was trying to mainstream something bizarre so that he could more effectively market it. He was trying to 'normalize', 'westernize' whatever you want to call it. In America at least, he traded the krishna outfits for suits and neckties replaced the flowers leis. Something like baragons that would call unwanted attention to him HAD to go.

His image over the comfort of his followers--imagine that.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 00:35:34 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Billions served!
Message:
I wonder about the sheeets. Remember the meditation setup: one of those round, sawdust-filled cushions, baragon and some kind of sheet or shawl to drape over your head and cover yourself totally with. We must've looked like aliens, a whole roomful meditating at once, these alien pods or something. Do practicing premies still use sheets? Otherwise, someone might see them practicing light or music technique, heaven forbid.
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 15:51:02 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Billions served!
Message:
JW: I've found that a 'modified' baragon makes an excellent backpack support. Lean the backpack against the baragon (firmly planted into the nook of a nearby rock), lean your body against the backpack, fall asleep.... excellent!

Tie three barogans together (seat-to-seat) so that the tops form a triangle and you have a camping chair or a camping toilet seat (take your pick).

One baragon becomes a secure, monopod rifle-rest that is easy to carry.

Single-legged seat (don't fall asleep, though).

Modified barogan: Hatchet blade in one end, small shovel blade in the other. Makes a multi-use camping tool for chopping wood and digging 'cat holes.' Good for breaking window glass, too (as mentioned in another post).

The possibilities are endless...... he he he ;-)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 02:45:16 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: grateful alive, for 99
Message:
I have insomnia tonight.

Someone here told me Selene meant moon or the goddess of the moon before Artemis. Sounds good to me. It 's as good an explanation as any for why i can never ever sleep from now til it gets full.
Every month the same thing.
So, it's sort of New Year's Eve. My favorite holiday, next to Halloween. I like it because it doesn't mean anything. Some arbitrary point on an arbitrary calendar. New Years day is always a happy day for me. Which is weird being the personality type i am. Morbid depressive and all that.

This year, I thought I'd start a list of things to be grateful for:

** I have become closer to my family. I contribute this to letting go of the superior spirtitual attitude and realizing how precious they are. so there M. Of course there are other reasons but that's a big one.

** I feel grateful for all of you. Each and everyone who has ever interacted or even put up with my posts. This forum has opened up a new life for me. I am serious. This is real stuff and good stuff. thank you.

** I feel grateful that in spite of all my selfish indulgent searching for spiritual 'realization' , the people in my life have hung in there and are still there. The ones that matter. The rest of them can go kiss my ass. In my favorite South Park quote, Kartman - 'screw you guys, I'm goin home'

** I feel grateful I know the blue prints to the bigM's house. What an eye opener and a great source of material. Thanks M!! for all the material! I recently told another aspiring writer, remember what they say, truth is stranger than fiction. And more interesting sometimes.

** thank you Brian and Katie for posting all that material

Anyone else have some gratitude to add? It really feels good.
But if you feel like bitching that's fine too. Ihave been doing it for a full year on this forum. It has it's place

sleepless in sonora
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 03:04:52 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: grateful alive, for 99
Message:
Hi Selene -
New Year's is NOT my favorite holiday, but I do like January 2nd a lot :) Seriously, thanks for your positive post - always nice to read something like you wrote after we've been going at it hammer and tongs (see threads below). I'm very grateful that you showed up on the forum, and that you keep hanging in there with the rest of us die-hards.

Love,
Katie

Going to bed (and, I hope, to sleep) - it's later here than it is there.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 08:21:06 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: grateful alive, for 99
Message:
i am grateful for many things. Amongst others
i enjoy Knowledge and Maharaji, yet
i also enjoy being with my family (and they also enjoy being with me)
i enjoy drinking, eating, partying and i enjoy not feeling guilty about it
i am grateful for having true friends
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 13:19:52 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: all
Subject: grateful alive, for 99
Message:
I just found time to read further down and there's lots of 'gratitude' being pushed around by premies. Looks like I am on the right track with starting this thread. All I need now is that barogan!

And some new drug to dull all perceptions so that I don't start that damned criticizing and thinking ......
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 13:22:45 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: grateful alive, for 99
Message:
Selene,

Thank you for this:

In my favorite South Park quote, Kartman - 'screw you guys, I'm goin home'

For some reason, this is just REALLY funny to me. It's like it's cosmically funny or something (haven't said that in years.)

Yeah, you're right. After a while this is all mainly for laughs. Obsession? No, humour, philosophy, friendship and a little public service. Boy do you ever sound different now than say, a year ago.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 18:10:09 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: grateful alive, for 99
Message:
Thanks Jim.

Yes I am a different person. Really. And as I said, this forum has helped
I am being lazy, I wanted to look up your personal email and send you a special greeting.
We have had what may be construed as conflicts but I think you know and I know they were just part of being there, or here. whatever.
You have meant a lot to me this year.
Don't ever change. (ugh doesn't that sound like a Debbie Reynold's musical?)

selene, relating to Shirley McClaine in Postcards From the Edge
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 18:49:15 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: as usual
To: Selene
Subject: from me too...
Message:
Always remember, Selene, (I still prefer 'Selena', sorrry!) that for many of us, you are an integral part of that same forum you are giving thanks for. You too are helping people - I am certain of this. So thanks for your own thoughts, company and friendship - and kind words on my birthday. (I love anyone who says nice things on my birthday!)

You also came up with 'toxic thinking'. A phrase that says it all. Hope you have a great new year.

Nigel
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 18:38:15 (EST)
From: Selena, for you
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: from me too...
Message:
You are the biggest sweetie. Really.

I like Selena better too, but it just didn't fit somehow. I kept thinking of that poor dead singer, and believe me, I can't sing. Being married to a musician, you kind of get feedback about that. My grandson likes me to sing to him tho. I sing 'Close to You' by the Carpenters. weird. could be worse, I could sing him The Lard of the Universe He's six months old in 5 days. How amazing.
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 17:00:27 (EST)
From: Veep
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: grateful alive, for 99
Message:
** I have become closer to my family. I contribute this to letting go of the superior spirtitual attitude and realizing how precious they are. so there M. Of course there are other reasons but that's a big one.

That is so COOL, Selene.
From my perspective as the family member on the outside of the cult,that is VERY VERY COOL.
Congratulations and thanks,
VP
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 18:40:30 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Veep
Subject: grateful alive, for 99
Message:
Thanks Veep.
I mentioned in an earlier post, we both got here about a year ago, and I suggested this be our anniversay. It will give us both a reason to like New Year's Day. (it's one of my favorite holidays anyway but I realize a lot of people dont' like it)
But now we have a reason to.
Love ya.
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 22:28:16 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Happy Anniversary to us
Message:
:)
Hey, good reason to like New Years, oops, I mean arbitrarily chosen end of year day-wink wink
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 00:34:50 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Any day now, Sandy
Message:
This just in on ELK:

'Sandy Freid
Philadelphia, USA

Gratitude

I just discovered this web site and am completely and totally thrilled to have an opportunity to look at and express my gratitude to Maharaji and to all of you out there who share in this precious experience of Knowledge. Now this is a place I could and would love to spend my time chatting and even if some weirdo sends me an instant message that's sleezy and offensive, at least I'll be in a place of perspective! This is wonderful.'

Great title, Sandy! You think it up yourself or did the copy editors at ELK do it for you? 'Gratitude'! I like that. Been kicking myself all day for not thinking of it first. Now why can't us ex's exhibit some originality like that?

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I, too, am yearning for the desire to chat with the likes of you. Yes, I'm braced for an instant message that's sleezy and offensive from some weirdo, but, tell me, Sandy, are you sure they're out there? Everyone I've met on the net has been as warm and cuddly as a bunny.

All the same, if the guys at ELK ever get the technology down, maybe sometime in the next millenium, we will indeed be able to chat with one another.

Can't wait!

Jim
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 02:16:36 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Any day now, Sandy
Message:
I actually checked out that boring website the other day. It was about as hopping as a morgue.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 02:20:04 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Any way now, Jim
Message:
Dear Jim,
Could you explain the 'Ex-premie org' attitude to freedom of speech?
For months I've been reading the complaint that back in the '70s people said things that weren't true and you believed them and you got confused.
The argument was that someone should have stopped them from saying those naughty things, so that you could go on believing everything you heard.
And even that 25 years later, Maharaji should apologise to the silly people who did believe the stupid stuff and miraculously didn't manage to hear any of the right stuff that would have made it clear.
Now we have the editors of 'enjoying life' trying to weed out the silly stuff and the 'ex-premie.org' complaining that they should leave the silly stuff in.
Who should I believe?
PT
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 02:35:37 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Nothing wrong with my ears
Message:
>For months I've been reading the complaint that back in the '70s people said things that weren't true and you believed them and you got confused.>

You are right, PT. In early 1975 MJ came up with an English version of arti. He boasted that he translated it himself. He doesn't mince words, does he. He explains exactly who he is? Can you really refuse your creator? I sang this song just about every night from 1975-1981 when the ashrams left London, and it is indelibly imprinted on my mind. I cannot erase it, just like a lot things MJ told me. Now he is releasing this song, minus the words, to evoke devotion from his old timers. Why don't the new recruits get a chance to learn the words? Did he lie about the following? Should MJ be edited out?

Our Lord is the Maker
Of all things created.
He keeps them and brings them
All back to his word (technique #3 for newcomers).
Our Lord is the Superior Power in person,
I bow down before such a wonderful Lord.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 02:51:03 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Nothing wrong with my ears
Message:
That is one creepy thing. So he edited Arti? isnt' that a very old traditional devotional song in India. I mean seperate from guru M ji and his cult?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 03:30:11 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Nothing wrong with my ears
Message:
You are right! Until April of 1975, it was sung in Hindi by all of us. Then MJ decided to translate it to English for us. The words were something else. He wanted us to sing that song to him every night and at the festivals. Do you think he is a love vampire?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 03:38:33 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Nothing wrong with my ears
Message:
I had heard our version, in English. But it was different. that was the same time period though, Tucson, 76.
RE: vampirism
He is abosultely a vampire in the sense of sucking out one's psychic and emotional energy. Whether it was love he got, I doubt that. He may have wanted that, but he got a blind fools devotion instead. Which would explain his need for constant reassurance, more material possesions, etc. Not that I feel sorry for him.
But hell, it's new years.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 03:52:31 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Arti, the dirge for the mind
Message:
The fact that I never made it to the Ashram verifies that there is a Supreme Power. Although, I did suffer sufficiently in a pseudo ashram environment where we followed the ashram schedule complete with The Song - Arti.

God, that song is boring! Long and boring! Mind numbing and boring! Twice a day!

I couldn't wait for it to end so I could get under the sheet, pretend to meditate and end up asleep.

No, Maharaji was a sadist!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 11:29:03 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Nothing wrong with my ears
Message:
Morning AND night for a while there.
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 04:49:21 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Exactly Selene
Message:
Dear Selene,
Yes, arti is a traditional song and is sung by all sorts of people. And I imagine there are probably all sorts of variations throughout India.
PT
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 04:44:55 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: But you need brains as well..
Message:
Dear Gail,
Arti is a song, its poetry, its hundreds of years old. I cannot believe you took it literally.
PT
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 11:38:31 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: But you need brains as well..
Message:
It was taken seriously in the ashrams, and litterally by many.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 18:39:10 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: But Ben..
Message:
Dear Ben,
Taken seriously, but not literally.
I enjoy the sentiments of arti, I love the imagery but I never thought 'Guru's boat is the Holy Name' meant the Guru has a boat called the Holy Name etc.
I accepted it like I accepted the imagery of Bob Dylan but never at the expense of my own understanding.
PT
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 14:05:40 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Dear Passing Thru:
Message:
I was a very bright, 20-year-old womon with no Indian background, and poor judgment when I was indoctrinated. I did not know this song was traditional until MJ mentioned it some 15 years later. We were told that MJ tanslated it himself. I had an original copy given to me by Anne Johnston two years ago. Either Brian or Jim now have it.

Why do you keep insisting that MJ never said he was the Lord. That is why I am so hurt. TM only asked for was money in exchange for a mantra. MJ, his mahatmas, his wife, his initiators and his instructors all said he was the Lord. The ticket was a lifetime of slavery. I only stayed because I believed he was the Lord. If it had continued as a warm religious community, with no lifestyle requirements or devotional requirements, it would have been OK. I liked the Sones and I liked MJ. It would have been fine to go see him as a teacher, but that was not the case.

I remember Marolyn speaking to us in Toronto circa 1983. She was telling us about her courtship with MJ, etc. Then she started to cry and said he was the LORD. She continued on with how privileged she was to get close enough to him to SMELL HIS BREATH.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 18:32:53 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Dear Gail
Message:
Dear Gail,
M has given Knowledge to hundreds of thousands of people.
And the spectrum of understanding or belief runs from he is the Lord to he's a crook.
And every shade in between.
And people move up and down that spectrum with time and at will.
The problem some people have is that they no longer believe what they once did and they hate that and want to blame someone for it.
I am no longer in love with all my previous partners. But I don't regret it. I no longer think they are the most desirable, in fact, I can't imagine being with them. But I have no one to blame for it, nor do I want to.
Nor do I take the attitude that anyone who goes out with them is a fool because I no longer want to.
I just get on with my life and love who I love.
And if I ran into one of my old lovers and heard their new partner praising their wonderful qualities, I would think, how sweet.
But not for me.
PT
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:16:06 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: PT: Why not use your brains?
Message:
MJ was only an imaginary old lover of mine. Thanks to his programming, I came to believe that marriage, career and families were secondary to him and K. If you don't believe me, just listen to the Miami program, May, 1998.

None of my old lovers were sociopathic liars. None of them stayed either. What self-respecting man wants to live with a woman who worships her Guru above herself. She often tells him that human love isn't real. He knows that he is low on her totem pole. He is there merely to satisfy her animal needs. She is always running off to see the cult master. She often tries to convert him by bringing him to videos and engaging in cult conversations.

I don't have much of a life anymore. I spent Christmas with another ex and New Years alone. I don't know what I want. I have few interests except the cult. I don't know how to rebuild my life into something I'd like. Luckily I have a decent job and a daughter (who'll be gone soon).

When I hear MJ being praised, I think 'Oh, no, another person is living his/her life in vain. How empty and bitter! Why do I continue to post here. How about for:

a) psychological therapy
b) nothing better to do
c) to disturb people like you who want this site to go away
d) to prevent revisionists from creating a new past
e) altruism. Like MJ once said, 'You don't have to go miles and miles in the wrong direction before you turn around and go in the right direction.' Everyone who contributes to this site helps to ensure that people can make an informed choice about MJ. I wish I'd been given all the facts before I got involved.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:20:11 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Passing Thru
Subject: PT please take the CULT TEST?
Message:
It's down below. Do you have the guts to answer it honestly? I notice that not one of you will try it? It's kind of an IN-YER-FACE confrontation, isn't it.
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 01:36:58 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Gail, PT, et al.
Subject: say what?
Message:
Gail:

I read your posts lately and I have been reading PT's too.

All I can say is that PT is full of it, premie or not.

Comparing someone who has claimed to be the Incarnation of God and now no longer does, with a former lover or mate? How absurd!

Gail, I hope that you find joy and cling to it in this lifetime.
You have put out alot of juice to communicate with me, and regardless of who's right or wrong, you put out alot of juice to connect with me, somebody you don't even know! All that desire to help others will come back to you in spades.

I believe that the true Lord looks on the motive of the heart, not what it looks like on the outside.
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 17:33:41 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Right on, shp!
Message:
shp: It's really good to see that you readily recognize PT's rationalization of M's behavior (past or present). Not to harp on it, but THIS is exactly the 'type' of premie behavior that 'lights the fuses' of so many ex's (Jim's included!). Now that you see a 'shining' and 'clear' example of blatant rationalization (and attempted misdirection), I think you'll agree that it runs rampant through premiedom, especially if you go back and look at the archives (when you have some time, of course). ;-)
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 17:21:47 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: That is a very low remark pt
Message:
Well, I guess by your comment about arti, you are just
being contrarian and aren't even remotely serious about
facing facts.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 18:45:18 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: I'm serious Bill..
Message:
Dear Bill,
The facts are-1) Arti is a traditional Indian song sung by millions of people without M's Knowledge.2) It came to the west with a lot of other Indian stuff that Maharaji dropped 20 years ago, 3) it's allegorical not literal and 4) some people don't like it.
They're the facts.
PT
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:28:35 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Arti has not been dropped
Message:
Arti is still sung to MJ in India, Mauritius, etc. Arti was played last year at Amaroo as people were leaving one evening. A recent CD has the instrumental version of arti on it. Why, PT. To remind the old timers of just who he is. Automatically, your mind starts singing the words when you hear the music.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 21:59:55 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: I'm serious Bill..
Message:
Maharaji stopped having it sung at programs in 1985.

thems the facts.

It is still sung in india and elsewhere and also africa.
the ashrams didn't stop until 83 or so.

PT, I have the elan vitals and divine lights where he talked about
arti and other saying so his.
For being so staunch now, I am just surprised that you weren't
caught in the seventies/early eighties.

I am leaving for out of town work for a while PT, so have a
good new year. I'll be reading your posts in the archives
when they hit there.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 22:25:38 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Allegory
Message:
PT,
There was never that kind of sophistication in this trip--the idea that arti was allegorical would never have been disseminated by the hierarchy of GM's world. Do you think Marolyn, GM's own wife would come out and give satsang and say 'you know this dear old Indian song is meant to be allegorical?' No. She is the deadly serious wife and devotee (surrendered) of GM.

In this trip there was no discussion about allegory, metaphor, different interpretations, etc. That is the whole point that we're talking about. It's a mindfuck trip! I know that we all (those of us who stayed relatively healthy) took the good and rejected the bad but that m.o. did not come from Maharaji. That m.o. came from our own common sense.

Because you have common sense and you're having fun, you don't seem to give two hoots that other people were damaged by this trip. That's really a shame, you know. Oh well, have a nice life!
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 05:01:47 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: All care taken Helen
Message:
Dear Helen,
I care that people are hurt but how far do you go.
No swimming, someone may drown.
No skiing, someone may break a leg.
Maharaji has given Knowledge to tens of thousands of people who love what it has done in their lives.
But Knowledge can't demand to be practiced or enjoyed, it can't overcome a person's will, it is up to the individual how much effort they make and how much they get in return.
Sure Maharaji could try to increase the success rate by making it more difficult to get.
Everyone who wants Knowledge has to take a psychiatric test, submit to five years observation to prove they're stable and then get a permission note from their parents and family members but all that does is disadvantage the vast majority who have no problem practising and enjoying those four simple techniques.
PT
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 18:46:57 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: All care taken Helen
Message:
You miss the point, entirely. Maharaji is not a good guy. He's ripping people off. If you can't see that, I feel very badly for you. You sound like quite the material girl or guy.

Have fun and don't think too much!!

Helen
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Date: Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 04:48:28 (EST)
From: jethro
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: I'm serious Bill..
Message:
How about this verse that prempa added himself
'The Lord is the Maker of all things created,
He keeps and brongs them all honme to His Word
THE LORD IS THE SUPERIORT POWER IN PERSON
I BOW DOWN BEFIORE SUCH A WONDERFUL LORD'

Can't you see how explicit this is. If not, think about it.You man IS a scumbag and he has/is abusing people at the deepest level. Those who keep silent are guilty by association, just as I was for many years.

Why not try the test!
It is very liberating saying prem is fraud. Why? Because it is true.
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 16:32:38 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Without M's knowledge?????
Message:
PT: You really are BLIND! I....REPEAT, I sang arti to M in person. He was wearing his christmas-tree outfit... I mean krishna impersonation costume while I and 30,000 other people sang arti TO HIM! He sat there taking it all in, just like he was supposed to be god or something!!!! It is NOT an allegorical chant, nor was it EVER an allegorical chant. Talk to a damned neutral hindu before making any more comments about it's being allegorical. The chant clearly and succinctly equates guru with god....PERIOD! Take the damned blinders off your face before you smack into a wall, PT!

M didn't/doesn't know.... how stupid do you think we are, PT?
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 06:30:34 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Rawat never joined the premies
Message:
Have you ever been attending a program in India (Hansyog Ashram)?

If you didn't, 1000s of western premies, like me, did, for decades. 80% at least of the still active premies did I guess.

At the end of EVERY night's satsang Arti AND Bhajans are sung to whom?

I've never seen the BM join the premies and sing Arti himself!
I guess he would do that if it wasn't sung to him?

What do you think?
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 18:47:36 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Rawat is a premie
Message:
Dear J-M,
I'm sure Maharaji would have sung it to his teacher.
PT
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 16:02:10 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: But you need brains as well..
Message:
Jeeeeez PT, give us a break. Are you REALLY THAT dense? Is your brain REALLY THAT disfunctional? Is it REALLY THAT hard for you to get the point that ALL of this stuff is connected (e.g. that M wants you to think that HE and HE ALONE is the supreme being)?

Come on, NOBODY is THAT dumb!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 10:35:38 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Passing thru
Subject: Try this, PT
Message:
The argument was that someone should have stopped them from saying those naughty things, so that you could go on believing everything you heard. And even that 25 years later, Maharaji should apologise to the silly people who did believe the stupid stuff and miraculously didn't manage to hear any of the right stuff that would have made it clear.

Those of us who have a beef against Maharaji's stupid stuff would like him to be a big boy and address his stupid statements. He could say the right stuff. You apparently follow the party line that it was the premies themselves who caused confusion and Maharaji was the one who made it clear, even though he was and is the source of stupid and controlling DLM/EV policies.

There were many silly premies who said naughty stuff, and the contents of www.premie.com was filled with it. Premies still have the capacity to speak whatever foolish beliefs they hold. At this point, however, they no longer have an outlet for it - other than this forum, as your post demonstrates.

Maharaji had his gophers pressure www.premie.com to shut down. No more naughty stuff from premies on the web! Now there is only party-line garbage allowed on the site set up by the Visions International editors.

On enjoyinglife.org, when people say the naughty stuff, it is 'corrected' for them as an editorial service.

Your post here stands as it was submitted, doesn't it? Do you see where anything was changed or 'corrected' for you?

Who should I believe?

Believe your own eyes. Stop looking to others to make it clear for you.
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 05:15:14 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Almost got it..Brian
Message:
Dear Brian,
Does this mean you think that people should be allowed to say anything they want and it is up the the listener to discriminate?
Or do you think people should exercise control over what they say in order to protect people who can't discriminate?
My view is that the solution is somewhere in between.
You try to describe something as accurately as you can and hope that the listener is paying enough attention to get the drift.
The more accurate and comprehensive the description, the less chance for misunderstanding.
And hopefully the listener will have enough intelligence and experience to ignore, clarify or reject what they don't understand or believe.
But no matter how clear the communication, there will always be some who get it completely wrong.
And typically, these people are the last to see it or admit it,
prefering to seek the reassurance and support of others like themslves.
PT
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 18:29:24 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: You'll never get it, Pt
Message:
The more accurate and comprehensive the description, the less chance for misunderstanding.
And hopefully the listener will have enough intelligence and experience to ignore, clarify or reject what they don't understand or believe.
But no matter how clear the communication, there will always be some who get it completely wrong.
And typically, these people are the last to see it or admit it,
prefering to seek the reassurance and support of others like themslves.


Are you talking about yourself, here, Pt? It sounds to me like you are.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 11:24:26 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: didn'tmanage to hear the
Subject: Right stuff that madeit clear?
Message:
The part you overlook is that prem rawat STILL is talking and
behaving like he is the lord/master of life/authority on
spirit, humans, behaviour, what god is or isn't, and his
own prideful self importance is marching on.

What right stuff removes that truth?

Why do you imagine that his misperception of himself and life
is somehow -improved to the point where he is free of his
demons? The sattelite feed talk is flawed. Sure, he might have
had some recognition because of this web site bothering him so much, just like he had some belated recognitions after his mom
died.

He has not woken up enough to reality.
What right stuff has he said that reveals that he has- in your view?
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 05:20:01 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Knowledge teaches the Knowledg
Message:
Dear Bill,
If you don't have an experience of Knowledge then whatever Maharaji says is just a fairy tale.
On the other hand, an experience of Knowledge puts everything M says into perspective.
PT
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 08:58:23 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Knowledge teaches the Knowledg
Message:
Total utter bollocks, I'm still having an experience from meditation but most of what THAT person says and does is full of shit, the same as you.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 18:53:18 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Knowledge teaches ..
Message:
Dear Hamzen,,
Since all M says is enjoy life and practice this Knowledge, you are closer to him than you realise.
All you have to do for complete union is stop putting your words into his mouth.
PT
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 21:34:19 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Knowledge teaches ..
Message:
'All you have to do for complete union is stop putting your words into his mouth.'

Could you explain what you mean by this?

Remember the techniques are not his, his dad nicked them from the radhasoami tradition, but he's NEVER acknowledged this, why if he's just the servant of truth?

I don't think I've said anywhere that I want union with anything but myself, and as this perception increases as I've deconstructed all the bollocks he spouts, I find I'm enjoying life very much thank you.

Were you reading when we did the thread on neuro-science and god, seems that there is a spot in the brain that if it's triggered with electrodes will give even non-religious people a transpersonal experience and a sense of a cosnmic presence. Don't you find this even marginally interesting?
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 17:17:45 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: PT
Message:
Dang PT,

That is some viewpoint you wrote.

I would guess by that comment that you have prem rawat enshrined
in two ways in your view.

This one, which is where you say prem rawat is like the
catholic term for the pope, that he is
doctrinally infallible.

And on your post to me down below, you say you also see he evolves
and changes his mind about things.

One without error, one with error.

We could discuss the infallible doctrine.
Sure, I know what doing the techniques can and cannot do.
I spent lots of years working on this.

Bottom line is, there is no god.
Just you and your own divinity and the master of life/lord in human form who has the job of telling people about his views
of himself and his somewhat changeing ideas on living and
others around him and how You/me can fit properly into
his world view.

But since he is not the lord/master of life, he is a distraction
from reality.
Sure, I am one of those folks that actually feel the breath
regularly. Most premies cannot/do not.
Prem rawat discouraged feeling your breath except during
the 15 minutes as part of the 1 hour dip into (fill in the
description yourself).

How much do YOU feel your breath during the day?
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 18:57:10 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Yes Bill,
Message:
Dear Bill,
I find that doing any hour or so every day does it for me.
But you are welcome to do more.
Make sure you practice all the techniques in order and don't practice two techniques at the same time.
PT
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 21:41:35 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Yes Bill,
Message:
Sorry to butt in here Bill, but pt that's the wonder of having no responsibility to slimebag, you can do what you want with the techniques, it's called freedom, and guess what, when you do it the way you want, the experience is stronger. What a surprize.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 22:16:13 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Yes Bill,
Message:
Dear PT,

Thanks for the chuckle.
I do like feeling my breath.
Tonight I will actually do the dang techniques in order
but actually, it takes only about 10 seconds to get
where I am after.
What do you think I am talking about?

You know, I remember you mentioned that you recieved knowledge
twenty years ago.
That would be 1978/79.

The only people that recieved knowledge during that era
absolutely HAD to believe in arti.

How does that square with your attitude to those fools (the way
you seem to view us) that lived the dream. That were in the
arti world. Which was the only world maharaji was involved with
for years after you recieved knowledge.

I will read your response next time I get to a computer,
which could be a number of days.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 06:40:15 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: meditation teaches m's BS
Message:
The experience of meditating (like for me now) WITHOUT ANY link to m teaches that 'knowledge' really doesn't exist.
That none of this satsang, service, devotion, darshan, longing, whatever is needed to have ANY inner experience.

What that inner feeling is is another issue.

And I also think that it's not necessary to feel any of it to have the best experiences in life either.

Meditation is just an option, some kind of experience like so many other!

What you say is merely repeating what m and the instructors have been saying for decades, nothing coming from you own experience.

That's all. Period.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 13:04:08 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: meditation teaches m's BS
Message:
You put it very well there, Jean-Michel. Not bad for a Frenchman! Your input is an ex-instructer is greatly appreciated here and your analysis of what 'knowledge' is or is not is exactly the same as the conclusion I've reached. The fact that you have confirmed it in writing is very reassuring to me. So thanks!

How are your Euros doing, by the way? You've changed to the new currency in France but you don't have any Euro notes or coins yet until 2002. It could get a bit confusing. Here in Britain we're standing firm. No to the Euro until we see what a mess the rest of Europe get into first. Rule Brittania and all that.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 13:39:30 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: meditation teaches m's BS
Message:
You put it very well there, Jean-Michel. Not bad for a Frenchman!

What do you mean exactly? What do you usually expect from a Frenchman?:-)))

Your input is an ex-instructer is greatly appreciated here and your analysis of what 'knowledge' is or is not is exactly the same as the conclusion I've reached. The fact that you have confirmed it in writing is very reassuring to me. So thanks!

I think that my past 'deep' involvement as an instructor (part time) and ashram resident really is some of the worse things I did in my life. I'm very grateful for the people who've initiated and maintained this website and this forum for the help it's been providing me in recovering (some of) my senses!
I guess there is no alternative but to agree on what that so-called 'knowledge' really is.
The only contoversy might be on how much the BM is a fraud, and consciously acting, I hope that we'll have more recent testimonies from the 'inner circle' sooner or later. I know some of them quite well, and I'm pretty sure some of them WILL LEAVE soon and tell us how much the BM really stinks.

How are your Euros doing, by the way? You've changed to the new currency in France but you don't have any Euro notes or coins yet until 2002. It could get a bit confusing. Here in Britain we're standing firm. No to the Euro until we see what a mess the rest of Europe get into first. Rule Brittania and all that.

I think the Euro change will be quite simple, except for those keeping the books, like me for my job: it's a nightmare!
I'll wait until next year to keep my books in Euro. I'll have to accept money in Francs AND in Euros. Can you imagine this for a small business! I am learned myself , but there are so many people here almost illiterate, I wonder how they are going to survive this! Poor guys.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 14:16:17 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: meditation teaches m's BS
Message:
Jean-Michel; just my silly parody of how the English are supposed to view the Friench. Riding bicycles with berets on their heads and stripy shirts with a string of onions around their neck. And eating frogs legs, of course. But don't be offended because it's only a parody of how some dimwitted English people see the French and since I've travelled extensively through France a number of times, I know that the French are pretty much the same as the British, only their weather is better and they have bigger mountains.

What was in my mind was actually how good your written English is and actually better than some of the English speaking posters here.

I think Maharaji is perhaps too self rightious to ever see himself as a fake. I think he actually believes his own bullshit. I think perhaps he believes he can do no wrong and that he has no conscience about anything he's done in the past because he thinks he's done everything OK. He has a very different mind to the average person. This would be due to his background of having been told that he was God from the age of eight. If he is selfish then he cannot see it and he believes that he is justified in all his actions and words. That's just my opinion but I have never known him personally and would certainly read with interest what people write about him who have been in his inner circle.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 14:28:05 (EST)
From: Sir D again
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: By the way
Message:
Your comments about how you are coping with the new currency are extremely interesting and revealing. It will be interesting to see how things turn out. Some people here predict that the Euro will die a death and will be abandoned within a couple of years. Perhaps that's why the notes and coins are not being minted yet. Just in case it all goes wrong.
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Date: Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 12:52:22 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: meditation teaches m's BS
Message:
I think he actually believes his own bullshit. I think perhaps he believes he can do no wrong and that he has no conscience about anything he's done in the past because he thinks he's done everything OK. He has a very different mind to the average person. This would be due to his background of having been told that he was God from the age of eight. If he is selfish then he cannot see it and he believes that he is justified in all his actions and words

I'm not sure he is so 'very special'.
I had a 1 hour 1/2 conversation over the phone today with a premie friend: even though that person doesn't like a lot of stuff around the BM, and that she doesn't want to be anymore involved in it at all and at any cost, she is still unable to question the BM himself as being the source of all the cultish aspect of EV. She still lays the responsability on the PAM, the premies and their stupid beliefs, etc.
My idea is that the belief in the 'divine' nature of the BM is the source of the justifications of anything and everything.
And I assume that this process is the same for the BM himself: he really is megalomaniac, believes in his godly/divine nature, believes himself that we're all lost in the maya and unable to understand anything about what the truth really is, that we're all still enslaved in mind and unable to understand his divine plans, that's why they all fail, etc.
I guess that's why he himself is depressed at times, shouts at everybody, and has a drinking problem. His problems are perfectly justified if you look at them from that angle.
The BM is neurotic. I guess they call this something like pre-psychotic in the 'Guru Papers'.

Same thing for most of the PT's posts and so many others: their belief in m's divine nature is the cause of their strange distorted reasonings, they can't even see it when it's obvious for any regular person not involved in the cult - they have to adjust everything to their belief. That's all.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:08:15 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: meditation teaches
Message:
Dear J-M,
I heard about Knowledge in 1972 and received it within a week.
I had not heard a word from M.
The next day I left the city and lived by myself in the country away from any premies or satsang.
Despite being an irregular practiser, within weeks I started to feel that this Knowledge was changing me.
By the end of three months without premies or satsang, I was convinced that Knowledge was the key to what I wanted.
I moved back to the city and into the ashram and enjoyed four years of great happiness and fun.
Twenty six years later I am still deriving enormous pleasure from Knowledge.
Its all my own words from my own experience.
Just because you didn't expeience anything doesn't mean it doesn't exist
PT
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 17:42:56 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: meditation teaches
Message:
PT: You said, 'Just because you didn't expeience anything doesn't mean it doesn't exist.'

If you are serious when you say this, then the opposite MUST be true as well, to wit: Just because YOU think that you experience 'something' DOESN'T mean it really exists, either. In other words, I say that your much heralded 'personal experiences of k' are actually a fig-newton of your overactive imagination and nothing more.

If you deny JM's 'lack of experience' then it follows that YOUR experience can easily be 'denied' by him (or anyone else, fo that matter).
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 16:38:00 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: I have the proper perspective
Message:
PT: It's called a mental 'microscope' and it's worth its weight in gold.... You know.... the stuff that M's friggin' faucets are made out of!
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 23:24:35 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: PT--MJ needs blow-up dolls
Message:
I am just watching the game from the Orange Bowl in Miami and it reminded me of Holi, March, 1983. It consisted of a big laser show in the dark and non-premie music blaring. He had to top off the DO YA THINK I'M SEXY Holi, I guess. At any rate, many people came to that event.

Have you noticed the numbers dwindling in your community and at events? Do you think he could get half as many to come to Holi in Miami if he held one there this March?

MJ's might consider buying a blow-up doll factory. That way, dedicated people like you could place the dolls in empty seats, so that MJ and his few guests wouldn't feel so lonely. The dolls could be remotely controlled to clap, cry, dance, wave, and cheer at the appropriate times.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 23:40:02 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: PT--MJ needs blow-up dolls
Message:
My main memory of the one Holi event which I attended were the numerous scantilly clad premie girls, dressed in bikinis and other similar brief apparel.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 11:51:41 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: reply to jim from shp
Message:
Your attack on Sandy Fried is unfounded.

Misery loves company, and you cruise the other site for company.

If a whole lot of folks went to Niagara Falls or the Rainbow Jungle on one of the Hawaiian Islands, or any other naturally beautiful place, I would bet money that not one person would say 'it sucked'. Rather, the feedback would sound very similar: 'beautiful, breathtaking, awesome, etc etc'. What is so frigging unusual about a lot of people responding in a very similar way to something that is universally seen as beautiful?

You may have other legitimate beefs about what went down wrong during your time in the ashrams and the DLM, but you have no moral right to trash individuals you don't even know.

Gratitude. Yeah, gratitude. It's only a cliche if you make it one.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 12:11:24 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: reply to jim from shp
Message:
shp,

You forget something, stupid. I WAS a premie. I KNOW that, despite their earnest efforts to pretend that Maharaji has fixed their brains and shown them how to experience only one emotion -- GRATITUDE FOR THE MASTER, IGOR -- that they're lying to themselves and each other. I KNOW because I was there to see us take our greasepaint and makeup off after every show. I was there, for example, in '75 when we all burst the bullshit bubble for the first time. Anyone who even thought of getting up and giving this kind of 'I'm always happy because I love Maharaji' satsang would have been fried in seconds. I was there in the late '70s when Maharaji taught us how to walk around like poor, hungry beggars. Now he's training his little pet seals to pretend they're toy Kabirs or wind-up happy faces. Maybe YOU can't tell genuine from fake, shp, but I can.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 12:51:03 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: the jim/shp controversy
Message:
Isn't it ironic that it's this site that allows for opposing opinion while Sandy on the EL site is only fantasizing about the future.

If I could get Ship to bore me at just the right moments,he could prob be an effective sleep aid.

Shp, if you truly don't want to argue with Jim, you might try not starting arguments. Don't say I never tried being nice with you, OK?
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 00:16:23 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: your perfect alarm clock
Message:
You could have me on one side putting you out at the appointed time, and Jim could be standing on the other side with his zen stick to WAKE YOU UP! We could be wearing lederhosen and the whole contraption could be done up like a CUCKOO CLOCK!

Isn't it ironic that we are all in this together somehow, regardless of our present positions? On this little ball of dirt spinning around a yellow star to who knows where, how or why....

Enjoying life sounds like the best idea in town, if we can rid our
heads of all the negative associations to those words.

The word 'love' took it in the neck for being misused, and so did alot of other terms of endearment. Let's not forget what they really mean in essence without anybody's spin on them.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 01:02:22 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Buy your favorite premie...
Message:
...a thesaurus.

Enjoying life sounds like the best idea in town, if we can rid our heads of all the negative associations to those words.

Hey, Sandy,
I don't know if you were around in the seventies or not, but all the premies I knew said everything was 'beautiful.' Goomradji was 'beautiful' and premies were so 'beautiful' and Durga Ji was so 'beautiful' etc.

Now they are overusing
'enjoy' and 'gratitude' which used to be two perfectly good words when used in their proper context-like 'beautiful'.

Come on, ELK, get some new material. YAWN!
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 05:26:45 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A little correction Jim
Message:
Dear Jim,
You received the four techniques of Knowledge but you were not a premie.
A premie, by definition, is a lover of God, a lover of Knowledge and that, by your own admission, you never experienced.
You pretended, you wore a mask but never actually had the experience that a premie loves.
PT
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 14:46:41 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Are you kidding, PT?
Message:
A premie, by definition, is a lover of God, a lover of Knowledge and that, by your own admission, you never experienced.

Do you always really love pratising K? Are you always in love with God? Have you been consistent in your practice since you received K? How about the new recruits, PT? They certainly don't stay long. Are they lovers of God and K? MJ himself says you
don't have to believe in God. 'THIS IS NOT A RELIGION, IT IS AN EXPERIENCE.'

BTW, PT, the 'experience' is one we've been told to have for decades now. As soon as I hit the Araroo darshan line last year, I began crying. This is a conditioned response, much like salivating at the sight of a lemon (are you salivating, PT?). We have been programmed to experience these feelings. I get really high at school asemblies due to the group phenomenon and my MJ
conditioning.

We all tried to be devoted to MJ and realize K. I wish you could be free in 1999, PT, but you can't face the truth yet. I'm just glad I'm not caught in this mindset anymore.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:16:07 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: No kidding Gail
Message:
Dear Gail,
Its this simple for me, if I spend an hour a day focusing within I have a happier more enjoyable life.
Sometimes it is an effort but it is always worthwhile.
Knowledge works for me and that is the only reason I do it.
PT
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 22:10:06 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: read Jims 1976 letter PT
Message:
Jim
Put your 1976 letter up for reading by PT!
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 00:55:40 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: A little correction Jim
Message:
How presumptuous of you, PT.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:19:09 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: A little correction VP
Message:
Dear VP,
Hasn't Jim said that Knowledge is bullshit and doesn't do anything.
PT
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 23:45:52 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: More bad thinking, PT
Message:
PT,

Unlike shp I doubt that you're a few bricks short. I just think you're a typical cult member. But anyway, the point here is taht you think I never had an 'experience' of k. You base that on my current opinion. That's one really stupid move, bud. REALLY dumb.

No, I won't bother explaining why. It's too far down the food chain of stupidity. My brain won't go there, I'm proud to say. You're going to have to work your way up the ladder a bit, PT. Either that or continue to make a complete fool of yourself.

By the way, you are indeed proving absolutely invaluable as a lesson in blindered thinking here. I hope you're not planning on leaving any time soon. Without examples like yours who would ever believe what this cult is actually like?
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 17:59:44 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: No ONE did!
Message:
PT: I'm going to ask you the same question that I've asked every single premie that has posted since I've been here:

Are you a fully-realized soul? If not, then take off YOUR MASK! You know... the one that you just accused Jim of wearing! You are talking like you are already 'there' and you ARE NOT EVEN CLOSE! Get a clue.... Everything ISN'T friggin' beautiful! Life isn't a bowl of cherries! Everything isn't wonderful! Everything isn't perfect!

BTW, for the record: NO PREMIE has identified a SINGLE CASE of M producing a realized soul.... NOT ONE! After more than 25 friggin' years, not a SINGLE ONE! Based upon his present performance, there's a greater chance that lightning will strike a pool full of amino acids and instantly produce the DNA for an elephant than there is of a premie becoming a 'realized soul!'
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 12:46:12 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: SHP--did you read post from
Message:
me in inactive index now? Response to your post...please read if you didn't.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 13:03:29 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: reply from the beyond
Message:
I read it and am in that long stretch when you have been sitting a long time and maybe your foot and leg are asleep....no wimps here. gotta go out, will call again.

We all deserve to have our questions answered, our hurts healed, our misunderstandings resolved with Maharaji and anyone else in this world we deal with. But it takes two to tango.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 13:32:28 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: reply from the beyond
Message:
What do you mean it takes two to tango? It takes one to figure out someone is a perpetrator of evil in the world, and it takes one to get oneself out of that situation. Period. 'It takes two to tango' ususally means that one person is somehow contributing to the dynamic of the other person. I stopped dancing with the Lard. How 'bout you? You know we all have to make judgements and choices in life. I'm really fed up with the new-agey stance that everything is OK and that we're all one and should never judge anything. That mind-set is amoral, in my opinion.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 18:26:26 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrwo.demon.co.uk
To: Helen
Subject: We're all waiting to tango...
Message:
I think all that is required to see some kind of resolution to things is for GMJ to show up in person and engage in some sort of meaningful dialogue during which the hamster accounts for himself, his teachings and past life. It will never happen, of course.

What saddens me most, is the way he is now opening up the Third World (like the tobacco companies), now that the West has started to get wise to what's going on. With there being very limited access to the internet or information about cults generally in Africa and Asia, there is nothing to stop him going for the full-scale Lord of the Universe trip all over again, and again. I think the evil bastard could go on until his heart stops.

(I think you're right to use the word 'evil', BTW, Helen, so let's have a bit less of the 'amoral' :-). I'm getting rather steamed up at the moment about the degree of corruption that has occurred in Passin Thru's brain, and the way I let him/her tempt me into long, carefully considered responses to which he/she won't reply, because he/she can't reply. I've never been too keen on the phrase 'passive-aggressive', but now I've seen it in action...)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 18:35:32 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: 3rd World Exploitation
Message:
Exactly how I see it. Once you've cleaned out one country, move on to the next. What about contacting the authorities, who are pretty intense in some of those countries, and let them know what's going on?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 18:55:07 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: good idea. dv
Message:
When you think the Beatles almost got lynched in the Phillipines for snubbing Imelda... The idea has potential!
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 05:31:03 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: What response Nigel...
Message:
Dear Nigel,
I haven't seen anything from you.
PT
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 16:09:16 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: What response Nigel...
Message:
down below. sentences with things on the end that look like '?'
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 18:08:16 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: NOW THAT WAS FUNNY!
Message:
Nigel: just when my day looks a little gray.... Nigel happens and the gray goes away!

That response was one of the funniest posts I've seen in a VERY LONG time!!!!! I love you, man....
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 09:37:54 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: We're all waiting to tango...
Message:
Thank you. Yes I think he can go on and on, taking money from the most vulnerable people. That is corruption and exploitation of the worst kind. You are so right about using strong words where they are needed.

Where is my labrador retriever? I have been looking in my mailbox every day and she's not in there
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 22:56:34 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: which two to tango
Message:
By 'takes two to tango' I meant that it takes one person to ask the question and another to answer it. There are many here with questions and we need the answerer to answer. That is what I meant. I am on your side here, sister.
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 09:44:08 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Don't evade the moral ?
Message:
If you're waiting for an explanation from Maharaji before you take a stand on him, you'll be waiting your whole lifetime. I don't need to wait for that before I make a decision about him. Have you looked at the blueprints to his house, read everything here? I asked you before and you evaded my question: What is all this supposed 'spiritual development' you've attained good for if you can't recognize evil when it's right in front of you? I think you need some morals and ethics and you're not going to get that by praying...that is something you have to sort out with your mind and intellect.

Happy New Year
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 10:20:30 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: prayer, good and evil
Message:
When I refer to prayer, it's not what you probably think.
For me, it's not just getting on my knees and putting my hands together and saying words. It is a powerful reality that makes things happen.

And I can't push the river. I am changing every day, Helen. Everyone doesn't have the same reaction to the same event. Some go off right away, some think and stew about things, some get hurt and angry and slowly come to a boil like a volcano, and some go into denial. I am feeling my way. I want out of anything that proves to be phony in my life. But I must be the judge of that for my life, not anyone else or one anyone else's timetable.

I am not waiting for Maharaji to answer before I do something, as you suggested.

The blueprints of his house have absolutely NOTHING to do with whether or not he is authentic. Here is some of that sacred elixer of the brain that Jim loves so much, Logic:

If he IS the Master, then he is entitled to his palace if he so desires, or he could live in a hut. No problem. Because if he really is the Master, then who is going to care how he lives if he is bringing peace to everyone's life who asks? The recipients of peace would want it for him.
If he is NOT the Master, then it would be expected that he'd be milking the cow for every drop.
So the house alone is not a proof of anything except that it's a
damn nice house from what I hear. Fit for a king.
Othr allegations made on this site, if true, may have SOMETHING to do with his identity, but IMHO, not this. For me, malicious treatment and abuse of PEOPLE would be inappropriate behavior for a teacher in my eyes, but not the size of his house or the quality of its fixtures.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 10:30:38 (EST)
From: helen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: prayer, good and evil
Message:
The house is just one example of a gimmee greedy lifestyle. But his house along with so many other things provides evidence to my brain that GM is a phoney baloney guru. My brain accesses the evidence my brain decides 'This guy is a fraud' Even if there was something good about him, the bad is enough for me to stay away from him and to warn others about him

What is it that you need to take a stand? I don't understand you. I think your brain is befuddled by all the muddley thinking you've done since having your guru/new age trip. I'm sorry shp, I just can't be nice to you all the time. My patience is trying.

Again I ask you how spiritual is this whole trip you're on if you can't make a clear cut decision about something. You've been posting here quite awhile. I'll thwack you with a zen stick too if you keep evading me (that's a joke, not a threat)
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 13:08:13 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: helen
Subject: reply
Message:
It seems that I am evading you, Jim and anyone else
If I don't see it your way NOW!

My actions speak louder than my words
I posted a month ago almost
That I was uncomfortable
To the point of not feeling like
Inviting folks to intro programs
At this point...
That should speak volumes to you.

It's like you want an old fashioned
'alter call'...
After the sermon, we're all supposed
To 'come on down' an confess our faith
Or else we are possessed or something.

Dances with dogs, would you you hit
One of your dogs with a stick if it
Didn't sit when you told it to?
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 16:31:01 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: reply
Message:
I am not into hitting anyone, hon (that's a Baltimore expression). I just get frustrated and want to shake some sense into you. I agree though that you can't force a change. I just find it unbelievable that you can still harbor any doubts at all about GM's 'true nature' after reading everything here.

In most things it doesn't matter to me if my friends disagree with me. I have several Republican friends for example. But on this I am very definite--Maharaji is exploiting people in a very despicable way. We can chat about meditation, the power of nature, and all our shared hippie dreams (many of which I will agree with ). But you & I will never agree on this and I'll do everything I can to help you see that GM is a fraud.

DId you read Anne's journey story. What do you think of her assessment of egoism as being part of the equation? See I think that our little struggles with 'enlightenment' are really not that important. You can struggle with this forever shp, but meanwhile the world keeps turning round and round.

I saw a great movie last night: 'Big Night'. This one character says: 'You gotta bite life on the ass and drag it to you.' Life is short, shp. Please don't waste it in a big struggle for nothing.
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 11:24:37 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: prayer, good and evil
Message:
I assume your committment to truth & personal active prayer has been going on for twenty something years, why didn't it bring up these questions that you're having to look at now? Why is it only here, where so much logic and brain prevails, before this process starts? In other words, relying on internal feelings is just completely unreliable, and to be mildly provocative I would suggest that internal connections only work when we are ready to accept. In other words, it's a screening posture to deny truth until you're ready, which is fair enough but it's also a cop-out.
The middle way would balance the two sides, but that means allowing logic AT LEAST an equal status.

The other day you got all lovey-dovey with me, re communicating as adults but didn't answer any of my questions. That has happened a few times now and makes me wonder if it's worth my time and effort, money even.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 12:59:42 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: questions unanswered?
Message:
Please list them. I thought I did.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 13:57:15 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: questions unanswered?
Message:
Sorry if I was a bit tetchy but I'm gonna have to call it a day here pretty shortly for a while at least, awareness of costs...blah blah.....shortage of time....previous non-responses were to similar posts, wasn't sure if you were avoiding....

Bottom of thread started by Gail, 'Take the test shp', near bottom of the thread, '-wed dec 30, 16.51, 'reply', in the inactive list now.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:31:09 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: ham reprint with answers
Message:
Ham,

Here is a reprint of your archived post with answers:

(1) You're missing the point, San. Mr Wonderbra himself was always very clear that there was a lineage of perfect masters, only one at a time had the sauce. The way everything was set up was directly nicked from the radhasoami tradition, not just the
techniques. The perfect master, darshan, satsang, service, meditation. Haven't you read the background material, there are links on this site quite clearly marked out. Before that loveable gentle man, gm's dad, boss of the family firm, set up, he had none of this, yet lo & behold after just a few months.....There is no doubt that the two radhasoami gurus he nicked the spin off of, did most definitely NOT see him as next in line.

>I have looked at the other areas on this site, but I have alsoheard stories to the contrary, that Shri Maharaji was chosen by his teacher to follow him and it was ripped off of him...so he hit the road, sleeping in train stations, etc.

(2) He's either THE gm, or he isn't, or does even that change from moment to moment? Quotes can be found from both angles, forked tongue etc. Any political spin doctor would be proud of the time
he's been getting away with this. Re Nigerian gm. Nigerian follower of gm turned up, been practicing for years, difficult time at the start, then getting stronger. Been doing it by the book. Only problem for him, that it was a different gm. A lot to take in! Seems this Nigerian got knowledge in the seventies, pretty much set up on his own fairly immediately. What a great scam, definitely not a bleeding heart naive & gullible hippie like
all of us. Obviously not in the least worried about bad karma etc.
The european didn't use gm's name like the nigerian, but the followers response/experience was similar. Think Jim's point was pretty valid, why defend if you didn't know......

>I just had Maharaji enshrined in my life as the one, and everybody else was either a hacker which went into one big basket, or some saint doing good in the world. After receiving Knowledge, I did not do much reading or studying about metaphysical things anymore. That helped mne focus, but it also cut me off from information, as you are pointing out.

(3) 'Who's pushing'. That comment I can hardly believe, unless you've completely missed my text. You've NEVER heard scramball mention about the need for the master......Comeon Sandy, you're
taking the pee.

>Propogation is definitely high up on his 'to-do' list. But I am not pushing it in my life. I only did it when it came from inside me to talk to somebody, not from an outer duty or obligation.

(4) Or you can take a slightly more sensible route (see 2) that any experiences you have had come from you focussing and being lucky enough to connect and trigger stuff in yourself. For myself, and like you, I've had powerful experiences in meditation over long periods of time, that have been absolutely crucial to me. If I'd had doubts about k at the start I'm certain that those committed internal phases would not have been so successful, I'm also certain that I had those experiences because I did what I felt, not what anyone else, including gm, said I ought to be doing. I would argue that anyone who did have an extended period of strong experiences did so by doing what they felt, rather than what they ought to be doing. How could I have had those experiences by denying what he was saying, ie give everything up and move into the ashram etc etc.... still can access that stuff when I want to.

>The only answer to (4) I can give is that I feel the best when I am being true to myself, and I can only assume that is the same for everybody else. To me, the good feeling I get from satisfying my own conscience is what I want to follow, and following that will take us up in evolution and spirit and the whole deal.

(5) Start with the classic. 'I declare that I will bring peace to this earth in less than twenty years.'

>I didn't hear the 'twenty years' part. As for the other part of the quote, spreading the true Knowledge of God IS bringing peace to the world. The concept of 'peace to the world' is the sticking point here. In Jesus' day, all the scriptures foretold the coming of a king, and this carpenter shows up. Paradox #1. And they all ask him about this alleged 'kingdom' he is supposed to bring with him. And he says 'my kingdom is not of this world'....some got it and some didn't. Paradox #2. Ask Fr. Mickey.
What IS 'peace to the world'? Is it one-by-one or a big flash and it's disneyland everywhere?

Or quotes about how when you realize this k you will be able to let go of the master,

>I'd like to hear more about that quote.

throw that one against all the stuff about how it's not about realizing knowledge, but just enjoying life, appreciating the breath....

>Like I said earlier, I have given him alot of slack in his words.
Figured he had the prerogative. I never heard about anything outrageous enough to split over. I am however paying attention to the folks on this site in 1999.

How it's all about truth and love and then see the way he behaves himself.

>Where did you draw the line between the Master's prerogative and bad behavior?

How you will rot if you walk from k & gm, remember how everyone thoughtr bob mishler had died from bad karma/gm's grace,

>Sounds wierd to me then and now.

who planted those seeds, you want more, for god's sake Sandy, read
the fucking archives, it's all in there, if you can be bothered to look.

>I have looked and am still looking. Yeah, Ham, I want to hear more. Not hearsay, more documented information.

(6) Sure we were all looking for the absolute, beyond the personal. But why? For a lot of us here we were bleeding acid heads. We had our first experiences on the cosmic scale because we took a drug that triggered the receptor sites already in our brains. But we wanted to trigger those experiences without taking drugs and ended up in territories where we were naive, stupid and gullible, a strength and a weakness, but we stopped thinking in certain areas. Who encouraged that?

>We have to accept ultimate responsibility for our own lives. Then whoever comes onto us as a guide has some responsibility. But then again, we are responsible even for our choice of guide, ya know? Empowerment is taking responsibility, and we all want to be empowered. So if we get fooled and learn a lesson, then we are considered 'experienced', and if we get f*cked enough times and survive, we are considered 'wise'. What we put into our bodies to have an experience from, we were responsible for that too. Nobody shoved any acid down my throat, ya know? How about you? We aren't babies, although in many parts of the world people have been 'dumbed down' by international corporate mentality, TV, etc. After visiting this site, I will be doing more mental activity to find some things out.

Sandy, for some strange reason, probably because we've both had regular strong experiences re k, I'm not so wound up about your attitude here as others, that and your hippie niceness, (in all honesty apart from your devotion to gm, which might just be an emotional boundary marker for you, you remind me somewhat of myself a long while back) but you've got to remember what this site exists for. I certainly don't want you to go, but a bit more looking, listening & reflecting might be in order! After twenty odd years of believing, it's probably gonna take you months of processing to really start absorbing and reflecting, specially since you're so feeling based.

>Ham, I didn't go through everything I have gone through in this life to end up in a sideshow or a whirlpool. By sheer will, desire, studying the facts, faith and ultimately action, I will survive this apparent contradiction in my life and come to know the truth of the matter. Thank you for helping me by communicating with me frankly and openly.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 23:01:43 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: ham@hamzen.demon.co.uk
To: shp
Subject: ham reprint with answers
Message:
(1) Say for the sake of it the stories you heard were true, that implies that the previous pm lost the plot, also if I remember rightly shri hans got the techniques off of TWO different radhasoami gurus and started up before they were dead, lineage etc etc.

(2) Who encouraged you not to read and keep checking things out, who encouraged you to believe that he was the only one. Exactly.

(3) Sandy I'm not talking about propagation here but TALK ABOUT THE MASTER. We all know whose trip that is.

(4) Exactly my point, you feel best when you are focusing on what feels best for YOU. It's you supplying the ingredients, nobody else. When you make the loop back on yourself it connects bettervand flows.

(5) The quotes are there in the links Sandy, he didn't say I HAVE brought peace to this world, but I WILL. Remember loads of people already had knowledge.

The quote about letting go of the master was crucial to me back in the early 70's, along with a number of more zen'ish quotes (they were still pretty rare among the majority of more hinduish quotes, but definitely the period when he was going on about 'realization' not justvexperiencing). Of course these kind of quotes stopped once he'd moved on from mining the hippie end of things. Also if you were to go through all of the quotes from a period you'd find massive variations and contradictions, was one of the major reasons I saw it all as lila, because I can remember doing exactly that textual analysis back then, why I followed what I felt not what he said, of course all the better if I did find occasional quotes that reflected my experiences rather than his expectations but the point still holds.

'Where did you draw the line between the Master's prerogative and bad behavior?'

Didn't really know about the lifestyle contradictions back in the day, but instinctively drew the line when he started laying major guilt trips, for me that was just after Essen late '75. My original doubts came from his tone of voice (when I and everyone else I knew, was having stronger experiences the voice would drop in tone and resonate, exactly the opposite came from his neurotic squeeky tones. His body language conveyed to me someone who was frozen, again exactly the opposite of my and others experience when the experiences were stronger, obvious organizational incompetence and the fact that the instructors and pams seemed more frozen and neurotic the closer they were to him. This last point was TOO consistent for it to be an accident. Either he was screwing people up in the head or he was choosing fucked up individuals to be close to him.
For me I never felt I could get to grips with the concept of god or THE master, but then I grew up in an all female environment and felt no need for a father figure replacement.

Thinking & feeling in balance sounds good to me, but also bear in mind that it was our focus on 'feelings' which left us wide open, one of the reasons why logic is such a strong element here, counterbalance etc etc.....

'Thank you for helping me by communicating with me frankly and openly.'
No sweat Sandy, still on the path of committment to truth myself , always more than prepared to dialogue with anyone IF I feel/think they're really prepared to go for it. If my experience is anything to go by, you'll come out of this stronger and wiser AND more appreciative of everything that you value. Wish you 'luck'.

Included my e-mail if you want, although at the moment not sure how much longer I'll be able to afford to hang around. Ahh the exigencies of living in a material world!

ham

Re acid culture and empowerment, couldn't agree more, one of the reasons( as well as my own sensitivity and neurosis) that I never got completely hooked into the 'guru' culture, but also the culture bred that naivete and gullibilty, and sure as hell he usedvand exploited that, still does. Is it any wonder that he has always attracted 'sensitive' types. Is it not also the case that the'punk' attutude came as a backlash against that naivete and gullibility.
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Date: Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 00:06:53 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: thanks for looking it up (nt)
Message:
yeah.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 13:29:34 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: reply to ham & everyone
Message:
Ham,

What you said provoked alot of thought in me. I recognize something of value in your observations and in this website.
I see premies here who call themselves ex-premies. If premies means 'lovers of truth', then you all are still premies here, or you would not be still trying to get to the truth to this day.
You are such strong premies that you are willing to fight for what you believe is the truth to the point of becoming outcasts and going through all the personal changes you have gone through.

Logic/feeling, plus/minus, yang/yin...yes, there must be balance.
There were things he said that struck me funny years ago that I chalked up to cultural differences, like 'Guru is greater than God because Guru shows you God'.....that really got me, because in the Judeo-Christian concept, it's not nice to say you are 'greater than God'. But I chalked it up to cultural stuff. This website has reopened that whole little cigar box of stuff like that I have saved for a rainy day. And it looks like rain. A downpour.
I am not copping out of anything. I am a living human being evolving. No apologies necessary. And so are we all.
I thought I answered your questions - what still needs answering?
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 19:28:30 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: prayer, good and evil
Message:
If he IS the Master, then he is entitled to his palace if he so desires, or he could live in a hut.

What if he's just brainwashing people into THINKING he's the master?

You've received Knowledge, Sandy. The techniques are very simple. Why is there such a long drawn out aspirant process before they're revealed to you?
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 13:13:24 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: reply to Jerry
Message:
From what I have read and been told, the eternal aspirant process is a time to let go of old ideas and concepts, to 'empty the prverbial cup' so that the Knowledge has a nice clean place to reside inside. How much time it takes depends on the individual and travel/event schedules.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 15:15:31 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: reply to shp
Message:
From what I have read and been told, the eternal aspirant process is a time to let go of old ideas and concepts, to 'empty the prverbial cup' so that the Knowledge has a nice clean place to reside inside. How much time it takes depends on the individual and travel/event schedules.

What old ideas and concepts? We're talking about meditation. I could show somebody these techniques in the amount of time it takes for a coffee break. I would tell that person not to expect anything from them, just practice them and see what they do. That's all Maharaji is saying about K these days, right? How come it takes him six months, minimum, to get this message across? If anybody's filling an aspirant with ideas before he reveals Knowledge, Maharaji is. What else does he have to offer in those six months?

It's a brainwashing process, the end of which Maharaji will have made himself the central figure in an aspirant's life. At the beginning of the aspirant process, all an aspirant wants is the meditation techniques to see what they can do. By the end of the aspirant process, if Maharaji has succeeded, that aspirant will now want what Maharaji wants. It's a complete flip/flop. By the time you receive Knowledge, you no longer even trust yourself to determine if K is a good thing or not. Even if you have no desired experience, you will think that's your fault, not Knowledge's. I once heard Maharaji have the gall to say, outright, that people who are struggling with Knowledge are really experiencing all the beauty it has to offer, but that they just can't accept it. That's called brainwashing, when you're encouraged to distrust what your own senses tell you. Maharaji's a master at it.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 17:12:47 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: TM meditation - no waiting
Message:
When I paid my $35 to get my Transcendtal Meditation mantra they told me not use drugs for a week prior and not to get drunk the night before and show up with the fucking money and a piece of fruit as an offering.

They gave me the mantra and started meditating with me and I got completely blown out!

So, why the fuck do you need this 6 month aspirant process to get BM's fucking holy Knowledge? So, they have enough fucking time to fucking brainwash your fucking mind!

Sorry for so many F-Words, but it's pissing me off that BM is such a fraud!
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 19:54:58 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: reply to jerry
Message:
Here is logic/common sense:

Either:

1) There is a process of unfoldment within and a letting go of old concepts (religious superstition, questions answered, clean slate)
before the Knowledge can be revealed and take root in ones's life...
I have a garden. Before I plant my favorite organic vegetable seeds, I prepare the soil by taking out the rocks, weeds, clumps, even get down on my knees and knead the soil with my hands, till it with a tiller, mix in good organic material, etc and make the soil as rich and smooth and loose as possible so that my wonderful seeds can easily take root and grow into fantastic tomatoes. Have I 'brainwashed' the soil in my garden?

OR

2) You are 100% right and the whole thing is a conspiracy to control and rip off.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 21:59:15 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: reply to jerry
Message:
Your points remind me of the hopeful relative. A news clip is shown of a bus that has gone over a cliff. The announcers states that the bus carrying children from your child's school has crashed. There is only one survivor. You know your child is on that bus. You hope, against all odds, that the survivor is your child, even though you have a sickening feeling in the pit of your stomach.
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Date: Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 00:11:13 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: reply to shp
Message:
There is a process of unfoldment within and a letting go of old concepts (religious superstition, questions answered, clean slate)
before the Knowledge can be revealed and take root in ones's life...


Sandy, I don't think it's as complicated as all this. Maharaji used to say Knowledge is like biting into a mango for a person who's never eaten one. Now, should we first discuss the mango for six months before taking that bite?

Knowledge is four very simple meditation techniques. All that's required for a person to know what Knowledge is, is for that person to practice it. All this talk about clearing away old concepts is just a bunch of mumbo-jumbo.

I have a garden. Before I plant my favorite organic vegetable seeds, I prepare the soil by taking out the rocks, weeds, clumps, even get down on my knees and knead the soil with my hands, till it with a tiller, mix in good organic material, etc and make the soil as rich and smooth and loose as possible so that my wonderful seeds can easily take root and grow into fantastic tomatoes. Have I 'brainwashed' the soil in my garden?

This isn't what Knowledge is, Sandy. This is what is taught to people during the brainwashing process, until it sticks and people begin to believe it. All Knowledge really is, is 4 very simple meditation techniques that can be taught in less than 15 minutes.
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 18:30:54 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Oh, Jerry.... was it good for
Message:
Jerry: Just kidding with the subject line.... he he he. I had a rather preverse take on something that you said above:

'I once heard Maharaji have the gall to say, outright, that people who are struggling with Knowledge are really experiencing all the beauty it has to offer, but that they just can't accept it.'

The perverse take? M IS telling the truth. If K is nothing, then we really are experiencing all of the beauty that it has to offer (none!). AND HE'S right, premies just CAN'T accept that, so they talk about how 'beautiful' everything is and how 'perfect' everything is, etc, etc...... SEE I told you it was perverse!
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 17:22:14 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: That's absurd, shp
Message:
From what I have read and been told, the eternal aspirant process is a time to let go of old ideas and concepts, to 'empty the prverbial cup' so that the Knowledge has a nice clean place to reside inside. How much time it takes depends on the individual and travel/event schedules.

shp,

Read the Instructor's Manual on JM's site. Don't be ridiculous. The process is one of 'love intimidation' so that, by the time they're 'ready', the aspirant has sworn off all questions. Get it?
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 14:20:36 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: How did MJ do it all?
Message:
Everything MJ owns or benefits from has been obtained through falsehood. Inheritances, donations, time, sweat, and tears of the devoted have fallen at MJ's feet. Due to incessant input into the cult, many premies lack skills or formal education; consequently, they are condemned to a life sentence of poverty. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, he and his family have every imaginable convenience, luxury and desire fulfilled. Isn't this malicious? MJ is a kept man. In this country, we call it prostitution.

His old house was a lot nicer than most of his premies have. To maintain the premie lifestyle, some British premies live illegally in squats (condemned apartments) with homemade hydro hook-ups, and become fare dodgers. Premies living at the poverty level or on welfare (robbing Peter to pay Prem Pal) continue to support him and his mission? Many pathetic premies live like drug addicts to support their MJ habit. Has Grace helped them?

You have fallen upon hard times at the moment. Is the Grace helping you? No! You will have to help yourself! All the magical thinking in the world won't save you, but effort and a good attitude will. If you attended a phone feed requesting money today, a guilt trigger (who are you to refuse the Lord's wishes) would probably find you dipping in to your pocket. Meanwhile, magical thinking is at work: a) you are being tested--don't fail b) give your all for Satguru c) have faith that MJ will provide for you in abundance.

Businesses that were started by premies such as DECCA, Amtext and NSA water filters have had the proceeds going to MJ. Nimrod, a person who posts here, started the textbook business. Before long, MJ's honchos stole his idea and gave the profits to MJ. It's kind of hard for Nimrod to keep the faith with MJ, isn't it. Few of us are lucky to have a multi-million dollar idea. You would hard expect the Lord to steal Nimrod's from him, would you?
Via donations, Amaroo has been extensively developed--a few more million ought to do the trick. The facility will be rented out for profit. MJ doesn't need all this cash. Where does the money go? Why are there so many fundraiser meetings? What happened to the 1-900 number that you could call to get MJ's daily message? After a little while, he changed it once a week. Then, it was once a month. Then it was blank although the clock kept ticking.

Registrations were down, so MJ had Padarthanand telefeed all the NA premies that Atlantic City would be their last chance for a premies-only program in '98. This sales tactic 'FOR TONIGHT, AND TONIGHT ONLY ...' is commonly used for itinerant sales, at county fairs and on unsuspecting fools such as premies. Long Beach had to be scrapped--premies aren't that forgetful.

I kept dismissing the constant push for money, the slick Visions Store Offerings, Visions mailings of SLICK sales catalogues, the high price of videos, the extra costs of booking trips through BEST WAY (EV agency out of Australia), etc., as the efforts of over-zealous premies. I couldn't believe that MJ would approve of these things. Is that what you are doing, SHP? I'm a lucky one. I finally got MJs message--IT'S BLANK!!!!!
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 16:36:53 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: TAKE THE CULT TEST, SHP!
Message:
1999 ****** CHECKLIST OF CULT CHARACTERISTICS ****** 1999

Consider the following characteristics of a cult, SHP. Do these statements characterize Elan Vital or not? It is easy to answer each question with a yes or no. You have been evading these questions for a week. Are you afraid to admit the truth? Why not get down to the nitty-gritty?

1. The group is focused on a living leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment.

2. The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

3. The group is preoccupied with making money.

4. Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. Former group members may be shunned.

5. Mind-numbing techniques (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, debilitating work routines, sleep depravation) are used to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

6. The leadership dictates sometimes in great detail how members should think, act, and feel (for example: members must get permission from leaders to date, change jobs, marry; leaders may prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, how to discipline children, diet and so forth).

7. The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and members (for example: the leader is considered the Messiah or an avatar; the group and/or the leader has a special mission to save humanity).

8. The group has a polarized us- versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with the wider society.

9. The group's leader is not accountable to any authorities (as are, for example, military commanders and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream denominations).

10. The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify means that members would have considered unethical before joining the group (for example: lying, collecting money for bogus charities).

11. The leadership induces guilt feelings in members in order to control them.

12. Members' subservience to the group causes them to cut ties with family and friends, and to give up personal goals and activities that were of interest before joining the group.

13. Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group.

13. Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members. After a while, members prefer the company of other group members rather than the larger society.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 20:39:01 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: shp takes the cult test
Message:
shp takes the cult test:

1. The group is focused on a living leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment.

>Yes.

2. The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

>You could say that, but I am not personally preoccupied with that. M has said to propogate only if and when you feel it to do.

3. The group is preoccupied with making money.

>Money is necessary for anyone and everyone to function in this world. I am not close enough to the organization to know if it at the point of 'preoccupation'. But the 'doggy school invoice' does draw my scrutiny, ya might say...

4. Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. Former group members may be shunned.

>This is true in such organizations, this one included.

5. Mind-numbing techniques (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, debilitating work routines, sleep depravation) are used to suppress doubts about the group
and its leader(s).

>This is a question of perspective and motive. And I don't consider practicing Knowledge as 'mind-numbing'.

6. The leadership dictates sometimes in great detail how members should think, act, and feel (for example: members must get permission from leaders to date, change jobs, marry; leaders may
prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, how to discipline children, diet and so forth).

>I never went thorugh this.

7. The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and members (for example: the leader is considered the Messiah or an avatar; the group and/or the leader has a special mission to save humanity).

>Lately, he said that Knowledge doesn't make one better or superior, only contented. Yes, he is considered on a messianic level by some, but I wonder if the newer premies have that view based on how it was presented to them?

8. The group has a polarized us- versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with the wider society.

>I don't subscribe to an us-them mentality. The 'group' may.

9. The group's leader is not accountable to any authorities (as are, for example, military commanders and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream denominations).

>I don't know about this one. As far as I am concerned, I thought he was.

10. The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify means that members would have considered unethical before joining the group (for example: lying, collecting money for bogus
charities).

>I don't buy into that thinking and I have heard Maharaji tell the premies to be 'immaculate' legally. All this information on this site about business conducted otherwise is relatively new to me.
11. The leadership induces guilt feelings in members in order to control them.

>Never happened to me, but I have heard this has aalegedly been done to others on this site.

12. Members' subservience to the group causes them to cut ties with family and friends, and to give up personal goals and activities that were of interest before joining the group.

>This has never been forced on me, but the giving up of personal goals and activities has happened to me, probably from getting older and more of a working stiff/homebody than anything else.

13. Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group.

>I was never put upon to give more than I was willing to.

14. Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members. After a while, members prefer the company of other group members rather than the larger society.

>Lawyers, doctors, and other specialists in business and social organizations do this too. Tunnel vision is common in a specialized world. I personally like to mingle, preferring the company of friends of like mind, pardon the expression.
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 17:23:31 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Happy New Year, shp
Message:
shp: Please look carefully at your answer to the 'accountability' question. Who, other than the government (e.g. not breaking laws), is M accountable to? In all of the instances shown within the question, the individuals are accountable to a 'higher' authority. M is NOT accountable to anyone higher than himself, as long as he breaks no laws. In the case of religion, that leaves an awful lot of room for misdeeds. Given THAT explanation of question, would you still say that 'you always thought he was' accountable to someone for his actions? BTW, the 'authority' must be corporeal to count as such.
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 17:56:45 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Happy New Year, Mike
Message:
By him being 'accountable', I meant responsible. Didn't mean to doubletalk you or anything. I just meant that I beleive he is responsible for his actions same as the rest of us.

I hear what you are saying. The whole Master game is based on certain premises, and one of them is that the Master reserves the right to blow the students minds (i.e. do whatever) however he see fit. That is fun for awhile, but then when his 'fun and games' start to get close to home or contradict some of our sacred held beliefs or values, we question him. Is it right? Is it wrong?
I must not be as wise as some of the folks on this site, for I do not see clearly that he is a fraud. Call me whatever names you want, ignore me, whatever. My personal journey has led me to this site and I am trying to deal with it in light of what is being said here.

As for my own individual accountability, I have agreed with society that I will take care of my wife and kids based on a social contract called marriage, I am striving to be a good son, brother and friend, and that's about it. Who are any of us accountable to in this world? Only those who we submit to.
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Date: Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 18:52:34 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Ok, let me put it this way
Message:
shp: I assume that, during your time as a 'brother,' that you were responsible for your actions and 'accountable' to a higher authority within HOOM, right? That's what 'I' was talking about. M is like the pope, except even the pope is responsible for his actions and answers to the college of cardinals, right? In other words, even at the 'top' of most mainstream organizations there is a checks-and-balances system in place. M DOESN'T have the checks and balances watching over him, therefore he can do as he pleases with impunity (as long as it isn't truely illegal). I think that is how the original accountability question (for the purpose of cult determination) was to be interpreted/couched.

BTW, why do you assume that I would call you names? Hey, I'm just a big cuddly teddy bear at heart..... he he he. Seriously, don't make the mistake that we ALL express ourselves the same way or that we ALL have the same 'fuse' that lights us up. It ain't so.... I hope you had a wonderful holiday season.... I certainly did.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 16:59:05 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Gail/shp
Subject: How did MJ do it all?
Message:
Thank you, Gail. Great post. Shp, Worship gm for his business prowess (dirty as it is) but not for any great spiritual message.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 20:42:11 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: reply
Message:
I wouldn't follow somebody for all these years just because he knows how to do business.

I am growing and changing every day.
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 20:08:16 (EST)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: How did MJ do it all?
Message:
I am sincerely overwhelmed and overamped
From all the information which I have requested
And for which I thank you
I am not rich
As a matter of fact
I have been unemployed for two months
And we don't get out of the area we live in much
I have never globe-trotted with Maharaji
Except once back in '77 to Rome and L.A.
It was paid for by some friends
I lived in Miami Beach awhile
When there were lots of programs there
But if money is the key, then I'm out of luck
For now and so is he, as far as money from me.
I'm not naive
Just eternally optimistic
But so much input from so many
Can it all be mistaken?
Give me a chance to catch my precious new breath...
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 21:43:30 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Gotta love ya, SHP?
Message:
Thanks for your honesty. I disagree with you on certain points, but so what. I'm really glad you are looking at it all, regardless of your decision.
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 15:41:30 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Eran (or Yuron?) - anyone?
Message:
There's a couple of posts on ELK by an Israeli premie named Eran. I wonder if by chance this is the same guy I remember from the mid to late 70s. What a character!

First, I'd always thought his name was 'Yuron' but realize now that I never actually saw it in print. So maybe they're one and the same. You've got to hear this. I think it's interesting because it shows several things, not the least of which was my own chronic gullibility and susceptability to flattery. Here's the story.

Back in 76, when things were extremely toned down and the Ottawa ashram, for one, was hanging together by a very confused thread, I was too. I lived there on Somerset with Cintra Hardy, Brian Gaudet, Phil Dacosta (our community co-ordinator) and the future Mrs. Dacosta, Ruth Dworkin (I'll never forget the morning Ruth thought I was asleep and snuck into the room I shared with Phil. She'd been the public relations officer for our thriving beehive of worldpeace in gestation and I guess she and Phil were getting close then. So I'm barely awake -- no one bothered getting up for arti anymore -- but she doesn't know that. And there's Ruth, dangling her large breasts over Phil's face! Wakey, wakey, morning glory! I rolled over but not without registering a few images for processing later in meditation, let me tell you.) Who else was there? Maybe Yves for a bit. Little JP. Big JP too? Hm. I can't remember. Oh, yeah, Scottie. How could I forget. And, not sure if she'd moved out then or not, our friend Annie (no, I don't remember the towel, sweetheart. But that's not the same as not calling the next day, is it?)

Anyway, we were in mucho limbo then. All these workshops we were supposd to be copying from Denver. What the fuck? Even then I knew this shit was hokie. And what about k, I wondered? What in the world was happening?

Enter Yuron.

Yuron was this intense, short, fiery-eyed Israeli premie who drove into town with some, gentle, soft-spoken Bai (female Indian mahatma) and his wife and Patty Dallas, a premie musician girl he'd brought along from Toronto. Patty was Yuron's first follower. Yuron had seen real life and death combat in the Israeli army and he wasn't into fucking around. Yuron was into this: remember the Holy Name means REMEMBER THE HOLY NAME. M was Lord, our minds were evil, there was absolutely nothing to compromise, we were on a path of complete, total surrender. Yuron was into reminding premies of the real glory of this path of knowledge.

Yuron would sit in the satsang hall and listen to our rambling, disjointed, musings. He'd stare holes through the satsangers even as he -- apparently -- rooted himself in deep, powerful remembrance of the true word inside. Once or twice he actually shouted out at the end that this was all shit, our satsang was shit and, we were all hypocrites. Were we or were we not premies? Did we or did we not yearn for the truth? Then why didn't we meditate?

Actually, of course, he was right. Either k was or wasn't all that m had said. Either M was or wasn't all that m had said. Soemhow, that logic appealed to me. Really, who could refuse? So Yuron focused in on me. Here, he thought, was a premie willing to really be a premie again. He'd come up to me, as he did the others, 'Are you on the word? Now, brother, are you in meditation? Are you trying even now to obey His commandment?' Of course Yuron told me that he could 'tell' somehow that I hadn't forgotten the real purpose of this sacred human life. At times I almost warmed to his campaign. After all, I DID want to 'realize' k, didn't I? On the other hand, I liked fooling around too much. Besides, Yuron, was kind of frightening. He even intimitated that poor, little kitten of a mahatma. Was SHE on the word?

As you might imagine, Yuron, absolutely HATED accomodating childrens' mindfulness, their play, their undisciplined childishness. Never too yound to learn what life was really about.

So this shit went on for a month or so. The community had all different opinions of the guy. Naturally, he didn't care. He knew what was what. Plus, as I say, he even picked up a few disciples for his hardcore premie trip.

A year or so later I'd heard that Maharji blasted him in a darshan line. Something to the effect of 'LEAVE MY CREATURES ALONE!' Now I think that story was bullshit. At the time, i felt kind of relieved.

Yuron also suffered a fall roofing or something sometime later and ended up in a wheelchair. Tell me we all didn't put two and two together.

Anyone ever meet this character?
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 15:53:19 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Eran (or Yuron?) - anyone?
Message:
I knew him from Israel. He was exactly as you described him.
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 15:58:41 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Eran (or Yuron?) - anyone?
Message:
So what happened to him? Any idea?
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 22:47:04 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Eran (or Yuron?) - anyone?
Message:
Jim, I swear to you, you are the one who has to write the novel about this whole crazy trip. I'm telling you, there's a book in all of this. I laughed out loud when you described the breasts dangling down in that guy's face. My God, what an image that must have been, we all know how horny you were. And that guy Yuron (I want to call him Yukon: 'The same's Yukon, and I'm the new sheriff in town.' Sweet Jesus but there is so much material, and so many characters here.
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Date: Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 23:36:19 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Eran (or Yuron?) - anyone?
Message:
I agree. Jim, that was a great story! Fortunately, I never met the guy.
Happy New Year!
eb
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 01:53:05 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Eran (or Yuron?) - anyone?
Message:
The last I heard of him was that he had his small band of 'followers' and was living in Washington. His wife/girfriend was the housemother of the Tel-Aviv ashram in the mid-seventies.

Apart from that I know as much as you.(i.e. he fell off a roof.....do you think he was on acid , woops i mean the holy name and thought he could fly.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:38:08 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Eran (or Yuron?) = Yoram Weisz
Message:
He is one of the die-hard instructor PAM, has been in charge of the world wide fundraising for years now!!!

He makes millions for the Lard, not that he himself works of course, he never did as far as I know.

I know the guy well!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 11:38:08 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Eran (or Yuron?) = Yoram Weisz
Message:
He used to come and give talks at premie meetings as a
rep of elan vital talking about fund raising for prem rawats
personal needs. Did he do it in France? Or where ever you might have been right?
Did you see others doing that also?
At elan vital events for the local communities?
Anyone?

How about when they were raising money for the additional land around his house?
And the reconstruction of the house?
He would show slides of the house land and why we needed to pay to
buy it for rawat's convenience.
Did YOU see him do that?
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 05:15:57 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Eran (or Yuron?) = Yoram Weisz
Message:
of course I DID see & hear him do that!

He used to come with 'special' videos etc

He keeps touring for that purpose, his expenses are paid by EV,
he makes $ 10s or 100s of millions for Raw rat
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 01:12:53 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yuron________ and Yurim wiess
Message:
Hello Jim
You are mixing two different guys.

The guy who stepped onto an elevator and it fell, leaving him
with paralysis in the legs, the guy who gave shit to some
guy in the darshan line, inspiring rawat to shout 'they are
my creatures too!'
true story by the way, I lived with -Yuron- in miami for a while.
His father was/is a orthodox rabbi in isreal.
He got into amway big time in miami.

-yurim- wiess, another guy who is close in the inner circle,
is in that never ending state where rawat is lord and he is
devotee.
He gives nice devotee talks, but they are totally
from that lost in space world of fantasy that rawat
inspires and demands.

He would come around and meet with the communities and show
slides of fund raising projects at elan vital meetings---
against the IRS rules governing elan vitals 5013C status.
Projects that were for rawats own personal property.

Last I heard Yurim talk, he was rawats guy responsible for money
affairs.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 03:10:25 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: we had our own version
Message:
In the states we had a guy named Marshall who sounds very similar to your Yuron. Very intense. He didn't have any followers, but would have liked some.

Marshall was a disabled Vietnam vet and didn't work. Instead of eating dinner with us he would go to the satsang hall and give satsang to the walls and the plants.

Are you out there, Marshall?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 03:59:10 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: mr jedbury I presume
Message:
Barney that sounds like me old mate Jethro, back in the day.

All right Jed, don't you dare mention the blues brothers!

Luv ya

Things goaing all right tonight?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 04:35:30 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: mr jedbury I presume
Message:
Oh, I'm doing the late night shift watching out for evil premies that might say bad things about us in their lame efforts to shame us into returning to the Master.

But, I see that it must be morning in the UK and you guys are already on the job crushing them with that wonderful wry English humor.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 09:56:06 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Minor cult in D.C.
Message:
Jim, I don't remember that guy but I remember in D.C. we had a guy who had his own little cult within the larger M cult, or was his cult outside the cult?

Anyway, he followed M's example and started a little cult of his own. Maybe JW or dv remember this guy? It was in the late 70's. He was old (oops, I mean like our age now) and most or all of his followers were female. For a while I was the 'Satsang Coordinator' (oh god, what a title!!) and I was under strict orders from the 'Community Coordinator' not to allow people in this minor cult to give satsang.

Perhaps current premies will claim that it was all the premies' fault that there was any mis-interpretation, but the reality of that scene was that GMJ created initiators and gave them intensive periods of instruction. Then they were released to travel around and stay in the ashrams and pass along to all of us worker bees the latest instructions from The Superior Power in Person. GMJ's direct and simple order was that he wanted premies to move into the ashram and dedicate their lives. When the premies in this sub-cult were told this, they complained that they could still dedicate their lives without moving in the ashram, hence the instructions to not allow them to speak publicly. At least that's my memory of this group.

That weird, distasteful feeling that I got from this guy and his little group is most likely exactly the feeling that people outside the cult (we called them non-premies) got from me!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 15:05:58 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Minor cult in D.C.
Message:
John, I remember the DC 'subcult.' They used to come occasionally to evening satsang and get really wild at arti, dancing around, much to the consternation of the generally conservative DC premies. And I gathered they felt that the premies were not devoted enough, too bourgeois, or something and they didn't trust the community. I remember the 'leader' as a middle-aged guy with long, graying hair. When I arrived in DC I was warned about the group, and told they could be disruptive, although I never saw them cause problems while I was there. And I also recall that most of the 'members' were women.

But I do recall that before some festival their entire house booked airline tickets through the community and gave a bank check to pay for the tickets. Somehow, the check got lost, although I always suspected they took it back. Anyhow, in order to avoid a conflict with them, I was able to get the bank to issue a new check and any problems were avoided. (Remember Chocho Fisher?) I don't recall the ashram issue with them in particular, but I can testify that while I was in DC the 'move-into-the-ashram' pressure, for every available premie, was going full force headed up by Randy Prouty and his idiot assistant, Alan Imbarrato.

Do you know whether Jimmy Bernstein and his wife are still premies? Also, David Horsford, who replaced me as coordinator in DC, got some ashram sister pregnant, got married, and was selling Toyotas in DC. Is he still around?

I think I mentioned that Andy Harris, who was CC before me, is an ex-premie and lives in Occidental, California, and is married to a woman from South America. He actually was a student in a seminar I taught about 8 years ago.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 15:38:39 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Minor cult in D.C.
Message:
Jimmy B and his wife split up a while back. I saw his wife at a local program in Bethesda about a year ago.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 11:40:13 (EST)
From: ex-mug
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Eran (or Yuron?) - anyone?
Message:
Jim, was Phil Dacosta from UK and into record production?
I know a Dave Dacosta who has a brother called phil -
just wondering if they are one and the same.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 12:52:48 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: ex-mug
Subject: Hey, let's just meditate a bit
Message:
Brothers, Sisters,

We're all getting a little carried away here! Mixing this one with that one and oy vey! Please, let's all just stop what we're doing and meditate a bit. Okay? Let's meditate for a moment and then, maybe, have a little satsang before going any further. Alright.

[5 minutes later. I break the meditation because it was, after all, my idea to begin with. Last night someone told me a bizarre story, by the way. Once Stalin walked into a room and everyone stood and clapped. For FORTY-FIVE MINUTES! Everyone was too terrified to be the first one to stop that they just kept on going! Anyway, I'll stop.]

Okay. Bhole Shri Satguru Dev Maharaj ki Jai!

Okay. So, really, sometimes I just feel that it's so easy to forget, you know? Like, we're all running around -- I know I am. I've been really pushing hard to find a few things we need for this program tonight. And I'm going here and there, and here and there and IT'S NOT HAPPENING! [Knowing grins and nods from some of the others sitting near me.] And it's like, 'Maharaji, what's up? I KNOW you want this program to be beautiful by your grace and I'm trying to surrender and let it all happen, but, you know?' And it's like I'm looking all over the place for this new kind of video machine for this video Denver's sent us and it's like this one place sends me to this other place and I'm put on hold for minutes -- and it's like, if only they knew who this was for, eh? Like they're just carrying along doing their thing, doing their BUSINESS, you know? And it's like if only they knew how we're giving them an opportunity to serve too, you know?

But then, it's like, is it really service? Is it service if they rent us a machine and we get to see Him again by His grace? No, of course not! It's unconscious action. It's no more service than if they were all lillies growing in the field to serve his beauty, you know? And I'm like, is it really so different for me? What if I'M running around and forgetting to be conscious of this word, of this beauty? Is THAT service?

And it's like, I'm realizing this as I'm on hold, and I'm starting to feel Maharaji just come in and really take me, you know? And then the guy gets off hold and, sure enough, they've got the machine! [Knowing nods and grins. Someone in the back even starts saying Bhole Shri... nobody really watns to join in but by the time they're almost two-thirds through this one, near the 'Satguru dev', everyone joins in. Suddenly, for some unknown reason, everyone's feeling a little frisky. Grace? Just call it a mystery or something. Everyone says it all over again. The same guy who started it the first time, now emboldened, starts it again. It's a good Bhole Shri. Lots of heart,doesn't taper off weakly, smooth landing, expressive. I'd give it an easy 8, maybe 8.5]

So, like I'm saying, it's just so beautiful to be able to do this service but let's not forget to let him guide us from the INSide, you know?

Now, it does seem like Yuron, the mini-cult leader Sabra Scharwzenneger (in his mind. Rasputin, in mine.) is not the same as Yurom Weiss. One sounds like a Jewish, premie Hamas member, the other a slippered courtier. Please, some more of you guys must have come accross Yuron, the parapalegic die-hard. Definitely the guy Jethro's talking about and maybe Bill too.

As for the Dacostas, Dave and Phil are brothers but Phil, as I know, has been into printing for years. He and Ruth are still together, I think, in Ottawa. David was here in Victora a few years ago. Don't know where he is now.

Jai Sat Chit Anand.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 13:49:18 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: warning, more satsang
Message:
God, that was so beautiful, I just can't believe how beautiful it is that the same bongo I knew in d.c. was the same bongo you knew in canada! I mean, only in gumraji's world, you know? But, was it really, and I don't know that it really matters, you know? I mean, we're getting bogged down in details here and I know that gumraji just wants us to keep track of one detail you know... (concentration increases on everyone's face as they realize how I've brilliantly segued into...the be all and end all of the entire cult - following the breath) and only by his grace can I ever remember that simple little detail, that new breath that keeps coming and keeps coming and his grace just never stops pouring and all we can do is open our hearts you know? and just beg for more, you know? (I'm on such a roll that I don't want to stop but sometimes it's good to go out really strong so I just bow my head and humbly sit down).
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 16:30:07 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: John
Subject: HA!
Message:
Hey John,
Happy New Year to you.

Yes it was a kind of Master Thespian type of enterprise wasn't it? Occasionally there would be a person who would give satsang who was very real and not full of sing-songy bullshit. Mostly this was when they would talk about the meditation. I had one freind named Rosaria in Madison (God I'd love to see her again). At satsang she would say stuff like 'I'm so sick of and burned out on this whole stupid trip but then I set my alarm clock to meditate anyway.' DO you think GM was trying to get our brains all jammed up with nonsense as a way to get us to meditate and sort ourselves out again? Gee, maybe he is some kind of zen master after all...NAW!!!
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 05:46:11 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: HA! to you
Message:
Hey yourself!
Of course he's a true zen master. You don't really believe that we actually don't believe in him anymore?
Oh ho ho! I'm afraid Hel (may I call you Hell? It's very appropriate because I'm afraid that's where you're headed!)
this is all a test and guess what, you failed!
A few of us here, one of the cool things about this is that no one knows exactly who, pretend to have lost faith in the divine Master. M came up with this brilliant idea. He of course knows just how tricky Mind is and wanted to provide a 'forum' for the mind to really be exposed for just how nasty and silly it really is. All the Master really cares about is our faith. Do we really have faith, I mean really have faith, I'm talking true-blue, undying-forever, take-no-prisoners, never give into doubt, kind of faith.
Only then can you take the next step.
And I fear that's a step you won't be taking Hel, since it's clear you are still a novice in the faith department.
but seriously, all kidding aside, I used to love satsang. I used to get high giving satsang. And then I started getting very weird feelings, that did not feel so good. It started when I truly realized that I could not remember anything I said! I'd have this experience, but when I sat down, my mind was a blank and I honestly could not recall a damn thing I'd said.
Well, that's cool, right? I mean, we're supposed to be in the moment and all, but after a few years of this, I started to get rather bored with it. I mean, what the hell WAS I saying? Like, meditating. What is meditating, other than being aware of your breath. Like, what is the breath, really? It's breath. But isn't it a divine connection to the LIving Lord, or to the eternal spirit, or something? No, actually it's breath, and I got a very disturbing feeling that I was killing a very wonderful part of my self by forcing myself to constantly focus on my breath. Just like I was killing a wondeful part of myself by listening to satsang and giving satsang. And just like I was killing myself by submitting to meaningless pointless service. Just like a drug feels good in the moment so there was a general relief and safe feeling in satsang, service and meditation, because that was what the guru said to do, but the general effect was that something was slowly killing me, and a basic survival instinct told me to stop trusting it. and so I lost faith in he who told me to kill myself by doing s, s, and m.
Yep, I do think I wrestled the devil. I can't really say that I won because in fact I was his victim for years. But he who laughs last laughs best, and at least I am laughing now!
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 11:47:01 (EST)
From: Hellion
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Zat vas zen, this is now
Message:
Great post, John. I failed the test! I failed the test! Do you know when I first started posting here I told Brian I actually was afraid of being told by premies that I was in my mind. I actually felt a little ashamed that I didn't have the 'right stuff' to 'go the distance' with Maharaji, like there was some kind of defect in me that I had 'abandoned the narrow path that only few can walk'...Yes, like Jesus' apostles on His last night, who couldn't even stay awake w/their Lord--sniff sniff--what weak and lowly mortals we be. I'll wear a hair shirt the rest of my life over this and put sharp tacks in my shoes, I'm not good enough, Lord, I'm not good enough, Lord....l

Why do premies tell aspirants what a 'beautiful experience' this is when it is filled with tortuous confusion? It would be so much more honest to tell them that it's not all rainbows and flowers, it's a lifestyle that makes you wacko, man. (I guess that wouldn't be good PR).

It all seems so cruel to me now to subject people to all this impossible realization stuff. I have no problem with people trying to be the best people they can be, and being disciplined and all that, but this surrendering the mind business is all so unnecessary and damaging, as you said 'killing a wonderful part of yourself.'

Remember when Huck Finn says 'All right then, I'll go to hell'. I think all of us said that as our little rafts were careening down Maharaji's weird river. We all said, 'Gee, man, I give up on this trip...if this is heaven then give me hell'

You can call me Hell-on-Wheels or Hellion. All my friends do!
Happy New Music
Helen
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 12:18:00 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Good post, John (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 15:13:33 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim's been reading ELK ilk
Message:
Jim, you really shouldn't be doing this to yourself. Everytime you venture over to ELK you come back spouting that stuff.

What is really scary is that you've picked up where you left off and it will probably take you years to get on the right page and be using the correct terminology. It would be good to start using the term Master which is much more innocuous.

Really, Jim, things are different now. It's not like the old days at all. Everyone is happy and secure.
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Date: Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 04:26:22 (EST)
From: syd
Email: syd@gold.ac.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, let's just meditate a bit
Message:
That was very convincing! In the days when you really believed all that stuff, you must have been awesome!

Happy New Broom
Syd
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Date: Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 00:33:33 (EST)
From: op
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, let's just meditate a bit
Message:
ok, ok Jim.

You're absolutely right. There are two people. Yuron is still in Miami, still paraplegic, married, has a teenage son. Still a premie.

Yoram Weiss is the now famous fundraiser.

They don't look anything alike but both have Hebrew accents.

Happy New Year to one and all.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 31, 1998 at 11:40:38 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Eran (or Yuron?) - anyone?
Message:
Yes i remember him well. He was the number one official bongo in DC for quite a while. Neither he or his disciples were allowed to speak at any program.
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