Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 38 | |
From: Feb 12, 1999 |
To: Feb 21, 1999 |
Page: 1 Of: 5 |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 17:58:10 (EST)
From: Sam Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Suggestion Message: I've not been on-line for awhile, been very busy. But I've read some of the previous posts, especially those regarding the media. I just contacted 60 Minutes and Dateline NBC today suggesting/requesting a show on Prempal Rawat aka Guru Maharaji. Whether they will respond or not I've yet to find out. I believe that if allot of people would send e-mail or snail-mail to national news organizations requesting/suggesting that they do a show looking into EV/M it just might happen. The national media will respond to a large inquiry. So my suggestion is that everyone e-mail one or more news organizations. Now, you may have already discussed this in a previous post and I missed it, but I just thought I'd make a suggestion if it had'nt been discussed. I would like to see this EV/M thing brought out into the open. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 11:04:36 (EST)
From: Way Email: None To: Sam Subject: Suggestion Message: I contacted 'Inside Edition' and asked them to check out Maharaji's website and this one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 14:12:58 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Sam Subject: Suggestion Message: The wife of one of the partners in my firm is a well-known writer for Time Magazine. I talked to her yesterday and showed her the two websites. She is very interested in doing a story from the angle of what disgruntled ex-premies are saying and how BM's website, while obviously done in response to the fact that the ex-premies have now become vocal, is basically a stonewall. If you don't mind, I may give her some of your e-mail addresses so she can interview you directly, if she decides to try to get the magazine to let her do the story. We talked about tying it into the Millennium. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 15:17:16 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: Suggestion Message: Joe, That's a great lead. You might remind her how cool the article could look with pictures of a young little hamster and contrasted with the big puffy rodent he's grown into. A little mention of big brother who's now set himself up as the Lord of the Universe. An interview with Richard Dawkins. I think a lot of people would read it. By the way -- did you ever see Dawkins that second time? Has that happened yet? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 15:34:13 (EST)
From: Sam Email: Echohere@uswest.net To: JW Subject: Suggestion (JW) Message: Sounds great to me, my e-mail is above. I did get a response from Dateline NBC via e-mail, they wanted more information. So I'm giving them websites, my journey, etc. I'd like to see a show where someone from EV or maharaji, fat chance, would be interviewed along with ex-premies. Dateline NBC has millions of viewers. It would surprise me if Prem Rawat consented to and interview, or even any one from EV. But I am willing to come out of the closet with my real name and appear on television or a national magazine article to expose this whole thing to the general public. I hope that more ex-premies will come forth, if you want to get something done you've got to do more than just talk about it on this website. I am not afraid of Prempal Rawat or Elan Vital. I live in America where free speech is suppose to be protected under the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. Boy, having said that I can almost hear the Star Spangled Banner playing, yuk, yuk. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 16:32:58 (EST)
From: Sam Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Suggestion Message: If you want to send some info on maharaji to Dateline NBC, they are interested, snailmail, write: Story Suggestions Dateline NBC Room 510 30 Rockefeller Plaza New York, New York 10112 They'd be interested in receiving mail on this topic from anyone, from any country. Remember, the whole news story of Bill Clinton's investigation started in a chat room on the internet (The Druge Report). We have and opportunity to do something about maharaji if we want to... And for you religous folks. I believe God wants us to expose Prempal Rawat. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 19:59:36 (EST)
From: Rick Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com To: JW Subject: Suggestion Message: I didn't get involved till '76 (received knowledge in '77) and never lived in the ashram but yeah, my email address is above. Rick Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 17:35:04 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Understanding Message: But... but, you have to remove your doubts before the Guru will give you the experience. Yes, folks, this is still a cult and the Guru still programs your mind. Rick made this statement down below and I think it's an excellent explanation of what Maharaji means by UNDERSTANDING, which he uses constantly, and even on his new website, he says it's essential. What does this mean? Well, it means you have to accept the belief system, you have to have faith that there is the experience and in where it comes from , you have to be programmed into thinking that knowledge and Maharaji are real and beautiful and to ascribe your 'nice' experiences, whatever they are, to knowledge and him to get the experience he promises. And that is absolutely essential. You can't just experience it, you have to have to belief first, hence the long aspirant process and the endless videos later. By the time you get through the aspirant process, you either have understanding or you don't get knowledge. And then, afterwards, he just repeats how you have to always have understanding. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 18:36:02 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: JW Subject: Exactly... Message: Excellent post .That is so true, another euphenism for 'getting' that the whole package revolves around Maharaji. Ack, even that word 'getting' it is from the EST training I think. Gak! Yuk! Now back to counting Girl Scout cookies and wondering how they are really going to kill off George Clooney's character on ER tonight Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 14:27:27 (EST)
From: Stevei Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Court in Heaven Message: Q. What is your name? A. They called me M Q. Is it True you claimed to be an Incarnation of God? A. Ahm..well...not really Sir.. Q. But you did say That Guru Is Greater then God...Because he reveals God A. Uhm...well Sir..you see it was like that... Q. Like What? A. Well Sir..I was not responsible for that... Q. What do you mean you were not responsible? A. Well Sir..you see I was a minor... Q. You were a Minor...please explain... A. Well Sir...it was really my Mum...she dumped this heavy Satguru Trip on me...so I dumped it on them... Q. Your mum? A. Yes my mum...I was only 13...a Minor...and down there it would not stick in any court..I dont know about up here.... Q. OK Then what? A. Well Sir ...you see I just had to dump this whole Indian Trip...my guys and gals could not handle it anymore...they were just flaked out by it...dont blame them..I did not like it myself...you know the chapatis and the dal...much preffered the cool Malibu Scene...you know what I mean...wink wink... Q. OK So you dumped this trip....then what did you straighten everyone out... A. Well to be honest Sir..I had a lot of good things going for me at that time..you know..pretty wife..nice pad..lots of money...I just had a good time...would you blame me for that...after all...I was flown in from Premnager to here...quite a change believe me...I guess your guys here would also freak out...you know...the ones who passed out few hundred years... ...To BE CONTINUED Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 14:48:32 (EST)
From: God Email: None To: Stevei Subject: Heaven? Message: You talk like you've been here, Stevei, but unless you know, you're just guessing, aren't you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 14:17:50 (EST)
From: God Email: None To: Stevei Subject: Court in Heaven Message: St. Peter: 'Well, M, I tell you what: here's a quarter, we have a very special place in hell for you that is reserved for people who rip others off spiritually for their own selfish profit and amusement.' M: 'What's the quarter for?' St. Peter: 'You're kidding, right?' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 13:56:50 (EST)
From: Denise Email: None To: Everyone Subject: OMIGOD I HAD NO IDEA! Message: Well, as I told y'all when I first joined in posting just about 3 days ago or so, I just discovered this site about a week ago. Well, slowly, through your resources and suggested links I've been doing research by reading as much as I have time for. Just read 'M's Ashrams, Part 1' with accounts from JW, Jim, Anon, and David. (My computer can't seem to get past one of these sections at once without saying something about being 'timed out' and freezing up, so it's a slow process. Also got the section about Monica and Claudia but no others yet) Anyway, I JUST HAD NO IDEA it was like this in the early days. No one ever bothered to tell me. Were y'all sworn to secrecy or what? I received K in 1982 or '83, I forget which, but did have the chance to go to several ashrams once, so they were still open then. All I knew about the premies in them is one died soon after from a long term eating disorder. Being the type of person I am, I just can't see myself going through all of that (described in Part 1), but then again, I was 19 and it all seemed like such a neat and anticonventional trip then, so who knows? Plus, as I've stated over and over, my experience of K has been so good that maybe if I was told I couldn't keep experiencing it unless I lived in the ashram and followed rules, I just may have. I also read some of y'alls Journeys and could relate to Katie's part about having a tyrannical, controlling father. But, after I received K, there were no videos yet and M only came around once a year or so, so all I had was premie satsang (twice a week, once in my apartment). By that point there were no rules. Not too long after that, (a year or two), they even got rid of satsang. Then came cassettes for a while, then the videos. Well, anyway, I missed most of that awful stuff described. It's all been represented so logically lately, what's there not to like? The reality of this is that I first visited y'all just to see what you were saying and now I'm glued until I figure out where I'm at with it all. I don't know how much more slapping in the face it's going to take with all this information before I get to the point where I'm disgusted with M as y'all are. Problem for me is nothing bad has personally happened to me because of taking M for my Master. Like I said previously, my life has been normal in every respect except for this. So much is going on in my head I can't sort it all out. Guilt, confusion, embarrassment for having been duped so long (if this is the case). Please keep giving me more evidence you think I need to know. P.S. Rick, I've taken the photos off my walls this morning, if only for the time being!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 14:15:01 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Denise Subject: OMIGOD I HAD NO IDEA! Message: That's sweet about the photos, Denise. My sister used to have a little photo of maharaji by the cat dish, so the cat could get darshan. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 14:41:14 (EST)
From: echo Email: None To: Rick Subject: cat darshan hehhehheh (nt) Message: no text Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 15:13:13 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Denise Subject: OMIGOD I HAD NO IDEA! Message: Well, glad to hear it's starting to sink in. I think you will reach a point where you have to decide if you can support M even though nothing bad directly happened to you. Because bad , really bad stuff has happened to many other people. I keep coming back to this, but it really is a questions of morals--is it morally correct to defend/support someone who has hurt so many people even if he hasn't hurt you? You will have to take a stand eventually. Embarrasmment, anger, all feelings in between are part of the process. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 11:18:56 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Helen Subject: helping and hurting Message: Because bad , really bad stuff has happened to many other people. I keep coming back to this, but it really is a questions of morals--is it morally correct to defend/support someone who has hurt so many people even if he hasn't hurt you? You will have to take a stand eventually. With all due respect, I just can't buy into this good person / bad person dichotomy you've got going here Helen. There are many tragedies but I don't always agree with others as to which of these tragedies can be laid at Maharaji's feet. I guess I'm what some would call a 'fence sitter' with respect to Maharaji. Sure there are stories of 'ruined lives', and I respect those stories. But there are also many stories of lives that were helped. The whole experience to me is context. I was there for the ashram trip in the early '70's. The crazy ashram for me was a safe place of healing, away from 'normal' society. Our so-called 'normal' society failed to offer me help or support in the crisis experiences of my life. What damaged one person helped another. People are 'hurt' or 'helped' by all sorts of experiences. To me, I think that all the experiences of my life have something to teach - that includes the 'good' and the 'bad'. The only thing that has helped and continues to help me today is radical spirituality. This to me means direct and personal experience. The space of Maharaji and Divine Light Mission for me in the seventies was a method and a context. Although some of the method is the same, ie meditation, the context of what I experienced of DLM no longer exists. Today I have new context with some old, some new method. To me, the experience in the present is key. And the experience is ultimately beyond the form - ie the method and context. When I die, the experience is all I have. In the end, it comes down to me and the Light -- and who knows, all in the end may merely be Light, or another new me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 18:29:42 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Bobby Subject: helping and hurting Message: I agree with you that a lot of things need to be looked at in context. we could definitely have a discussion about that. I am probably much more black and white about good and evil than you are. I think that your Buddhist spirituality and my very definite ideas about morality are probably rubbing up against each other here. Last night my husband asked me if I had forgiven myself for getting involved in Maharaji in the first place. I told him I didn't know & I have been thinking about that. Some of my vehemence comes from anger at myself that I was so naive and stupid, so willing to throw myself & my precious life away (in so many ways I threw my life away, not just with Maharaji). To use your idea of context, the whole context of what Maharaji was about fed into such negative concepts that I had about myself, it was not at all healthy for me. I do think it's important to look at things objectively and within context. I do try to keep things in perspective and you know I always welcome you challenging me. I think if you met me in person you would find me to be a total 'softy' at heart. Take are bobby Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 18:36:09 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: bobby Subject: helping and hurting Message: I meant to say 'Take care' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 18:49:21 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: bobby Subject: helping and hurting Message: one more thing bobby, it's hard for me to visualize the idea of God without this moral framework that I have. I think it would have been more helpful (to me) to have had a teacher who would have brought me to the next level of moral development rather than a teacher to show me light. The exciting spiritual stuff for me is the stuff that deals with ethics and morals: that's why Judiasm turns me on. I do sincerely know where you are coming from and I do NOT wish to make your experience 'wrong ' simply because it is not my experience Love Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 15:39:31 (EST)
From: Denise Email: None To: Rick Subject: Cat Darshan Message: Now I feel like a really bad cat parent, three cats and no pictures by any of their bowls! It just never occurred to me is the worst part of it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 15:14:29 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Denise Subject: OMI-GOD IDEAS Message: >I don't know how much more slapping in the face it's going to take with all this information before I get to the point where I'm disgusted with M as y'all are. Problem for me is nothing bad has personally happened to me because of taking M for my Master. You can always believe what you want. Has anything good happened to you becuase of taking M for your Master? I recieved knowledge in 1972. I am not disgusted with M. I am quite satisfied. I lived in an ashram situation and premie houses for a couple years in the 70s. Whats the problem? When you consider the personalities of the people who lived in close quarters in those houses it is not hard to see that some oddities resulted. There were also many good times and learning experiences. Of course in hindsight it is always easy to postulate something better or criticize. When I see the daily news it doesn't portray a world of humans who have found a positive inspiration to live and share this life and world in peace. Of course that is certainly a worthy goal. I do believe that the place to start is still the individual experience of the granduer of each persons own existence which can manifest into respect for other human beings. The understanding has to be at a level beyond ideas and beliefs which divide us. There is a fundamental unity in each of us that does not differ according to our physical life situation or history. This has to become the foundation that manifests in good deeds which build towards the common good. Many people on this site diss the possibility of a simple inner experience that has value and power. Mental agility has become their source of wisdom. This is a fundamental issue even beyond the criticism of M's alleged infractions. I do think that the majority of participants on this site are still interested in finding ultimate peace. The search for a source of inspiration that feels right is still very much alive yet shrouded in apparent turmoil. What M teaches has fundamental positive value for me. He focuses on the ultimate priority. Thats the bottom line. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 15:34:01 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: CD Subject: OMI-GOD IDEAS Message: CD: Do you REALLY believe what you are saying? I quote: 'Whats the problem? When you consider the personalities of the people who lived in close quarters in those houses it is not hard to see that some oddities resulted.' Are you really serious when you imply that premies were the WHOLE problem? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 03:27:03 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Mike Subject: OMI-GOD IDEAS Message: >Are you really serious when you imply that premies were the WHOLE problem? What is your personal dilemma that you can blame on time spent in an ashram or premie house? What was supposed to happen? The white picket fence story? The good life on a silver platter? Certainly many premies may have been better off in the service learning a bit of discipline and manners. I am not convinced that combat would have enriched their lives except to give them first hand experience of the fear of death. Too much time is being spent laying blame for past problems and personal failures. No, I am not impressed by what I hear. It mainly reminds me of the problems of spoiled rich kids. I do believe that all the people who participate on this forum have the potential for a bright and fulfilling future. I intend to keep my eyes and ears open for the positive in the present and future. I have a hunch that you share that enthusiasm. Best regards, CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 09:40:09 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: CD Subject: OMI-GOD IDEAS Message: What was supposed to happen? The white picket fence story? The good life on a silver platter? Oh no, CD. According to Maharaji, it was supposed to be much better than that. Heaven on earth is what living in an ashram was supposed to be. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 10:52:16 (EST)
From: Veep Email: None To: CD Subject: The future is NOW Message: 'I do believe that all the people who participate on this forum have the potential for a bright and fulfilling future.' Thanks for the vote of confidence. Just so you know, many of us are living bright and fulfilled lives right now (Aren't you fulfilled? You are here, too, right?) Some of us are living our potential and some of us are very positive. Peace, (though maybe not 'ultimate'peace -g!) VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 17:29:37 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Veep Subject: The future is NOW Message: >Just so you know, many of us are living bright and fulfilled lives right now Yes, I should have included the present because it is the most important. I do believe that you are doing well. On the other hand you are still too paranoid to use your own name on this site. May your good fortune continue. Chris Dickey San Diego,CA Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 20:51:26 (EST)
From: Jethro Email: None To: CD Subject: The future is NOW Message: 'On the other hand you are still too paranoid to use your own name on this site.' I'm not sure but I think Veep is British. I don't know about USA premies, but there were many here into the Godfather type scenario visavi their devotion to prempal and they would think nothing of causing physical harm to 'exs'. A good excuse to exercise their bullying ih the name of devotion. If veep knows or has memories of these people I wouldn't blame him. Anyway maybe it's just a bit of fun or some other reason. So what? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 22:27:10 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Jethro Subject: The future is NOW Message: >I'm not sure but I think Veep is British. VP lives in America. >Anyway maybe it's just a bit of fun or some other reason. So what? Yeah, its up to VP. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 11:28:10 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jethro Subject: The future is NOW Message: I'm not sure but I think Veep is British. Thank you, that is a HUGE compliment! Alas, Chris is right, I live in the United States. You are right it IS a bit of fun to be anonymous. I have personal reasons that have nothing to do with paranoia. That was such a seemingly heartfelt and genuine well wish from Chris... until he blew it by throwing an insult in there. Have a good one :) VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 16:20:06 (EST)
From: Jethro Email: None To: VP Subject: :>)) nt Message: No text just a smile or two :>)) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 16:52:54 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: VP Subject: The future is NOW Message: >That was such a seemingly heartfelt and genuine well wish from Chris... until he blew it by throwing an insult in there. It was a heartfelt well wish. Yeah, I thought about not putting the anonymous stuff in the same message. It wasn't an insult. 2 topics in one posting. I believe that not using your true identity cheapens the impact of your words. Good god, I might actually agree with Jim on this one! Regards, Chris Dickey Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 02:54:41 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: VP Subject: The future is NOW Message: I was just thinking the same thing...that Chris was being so kind and then had to twist the knife in. CD, you don't know all people's motivations for doing all things, so don' t be obnoxious,ok? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 16:32:09 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Helen Subject: The future is NOW Message: >CD, you don't know all people's motivations for doing all things, so don' t be obnoxious,ok? I'll try! In the past I have exchanged a few emails with VP and also tried to arrange a phone chat with Bill Burke. I extended the offers with good intentions. When VP comes to San Diego I am sure we will get together for a beer. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 15:36:16 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: CD Subject: No such thing in life! Message: 'I do think that the majority of participants on this site are still interested in finding ultimate peace.' CD, a little peace is a good thing, but ultimate peace? Isn't that a little unrealistic for a being who is alive? We have good times, but we also experience stresses, disappointments--it's part of being human. Even when things hurt, I would not trade my humanness for something artificial like 'ultimate peace.' Rocky road ice cream is better than vanilla. Chris, in my opinion, we will all have ultimate Peace soon enough--upon death. Why not live a little? -g! VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 22:41:34 (EST)
From: AE Email: None To: VP Subject: No such thing in life! Message: I agree there VP. This ultimate peace thing is a myth. Nobody has ever got there but people pretend it's there. I followed Maharaji for many years and it took away any peace I had. I am determined that the full story will be told for all to see who are interested. For too long Maharaji has had it easy. For too long he has fooled people. My nom de plume, 'AE' stands for An Enemy. I won't be popular with premies. Not unless they see the truth of what people here are saying. I think we will end Maharaji's mission in the Western World and reduce his capability in the Third World. All by publishing information on the Internet. I believe it's morally right to expose a charlatan. When I was a premie I was very vocal in supporting Maharaji and I used my wits to bring people to his feet. Fortunately, all the people I brought to Maharaji left within a short time with perhaps only one close friend who stayed in the cult throughout the seventies but left in the mass exodus. What once was devotion to Maharaji has now bwcome a commitment to stop Maharaji. He's brought this on his own head. The people who received knowledge were not vindictive or nasty people, just idealistic and trusting. Maharaji has played around with people's lives and now it's all going to come back on him. The people he played with and messed up have turned against him. And it is just beginning. Maharaji will surely find a sea of enemies facing him as more and more people connect to the Internet. Maharaji may be fantastically wealthy and have great means at his disposal but the Internet is a great leveler and he is on an equal footing to us here. Just a few people have already done a lot of damage to his plans. And there's going to be much more to come. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 03:05:03 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: AE Subject: No such thing in life! Message: >I think we will end Maharaji's mission in the Western World and reduce his capability in the Third World. All by publishing information on the Internet. I believe it's morally right to expose a charlatan. When I was a premie I was very vocal in supporting Maharaji and I used my wits to bring people to his feet. How charming. The same con you always were. Who do you think you are kidding? You are bold to peddle your confusion as information. People who pay attention to their feelings know better. >This ultimate peace thing is a myth. Nobody has ever got there but people pretend it's there. Satisfied in your foolishness you will never know any better! People do feel love inside. >My nom de plume, 'AE' stands for An Enemy. I won't be popular with premies. Not unless they see the truth of what people here are saying. Your 'truth' is pretty clear. You can keep it all for yourself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 10:44:22 (EST)
From: AE Email: None To: CD Subject: Here's my answer, CD Message: You say that I'm doing the same con I always were doing. I fail to see what this means. I brought people to Guru Maharaj Ji because I genuinely believed he was their Lord. I mean, if he's God then he's everybody's God, right? So I felt an obligation to bring people to him. There was no con there but I do admit that I was mistaken. You also say that I am bold to peddle my confusion as information and that people who pay attention to their feelings know better. This is easily answered. It is not MY confusion becease I am simply putting relevant archived posts on a web site for all to see and to save people searching through the archives. These are mainly other people's posts on the website, not all mine. And the people who have written them, would you say that they are all confused? I think if you read the ashram posts you'd be hard pressed to say that these were confused people. And they certainly ARE paying attention to their feelings. That's indisputable. Look CD, I know it's not charming but are we dealing with a charming person here? Reading Bill's post about the girl called Mirabai and how Maharaji freaked out at her slashing her wrists in his house and oh dear, getting some nasty blood on his nice clean carpet; well that hardly illustrates a charming Maharaji, does it. But finally, CD, is there anything on the web site that you think is NOT true? If you doubt the validity of the posts there, I'd be interested to hear that. Which do you consider to be untrue and why. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 03:10:34 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: VP Subject: No such thing in life! Message: >CD, a little peace is a good thing, but ultimate peace? Isn't that a little unrealistic for a being who is alive? We have good times, but we also experience stresses, disappointments--it's part of being human. What is unrealistic? We are alive! Hows that for a start! I think its unrealistic that this earth floats in the middle of infinity. Its just not logical. >Why not live a little? -g! I'll go with you on that one. By the way, you're the one who didn't make it to Miami Beach! CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 10:37:41 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: CD Subject: Missing Miami? Message: 'By the way, you're the one who didn't make it to Miami Beach!' Are you quite sure about this? :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 07:34:29 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: CD Subject: OMI-GOD IDEAS Message: Chris, well I think we all have a pretty good idea of the universe in which you live. It has a population of one, you. In all your posts to this and other sites I have never heard you address the question of hurt to other people. Come to think of it I have never heard you address any question put to you by me, Jim or anybody else. Chris, if you refuse to deal with anyone else's experience but your own, you really have no right to pontificate on matters of spirituality. If you are happy with the taste of your own shit, eat away. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 18:44:58 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Richard Subject: OMI-GOD IDEAS Message: >If you are happy with the taste of your own shit, eat away. I don't eat my shit asshole! Maybe thats what your problem is. Try fresh vegetables instead. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 15:21:24 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: Time to wake up, Chris Message: I do believe that the place to start is still the individual experience of the granduer of each persons own existence which can manifest into respect for other human beings. The understanding has to be at a level beyond ideas and beliefs which divide us. (Emphasis mine). You're contradicting yourself. Can't you see? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 17:08:38 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Jim Subject: good writing tip Message: >You're contradicting yourself. Can't you see? Yes I see your point. I can always use a good tip on how to better express what I know. Thanks! The place to start is still the individual experience ... When I want to really know something I close my eyes and feel the peace inside. I remember reading about one famous inventor who would study, study, study and then lock himself in a quiet dark room for an hour with a pad of paper and a pen nearby. It is amazing what intelligence exists inside of each of us beyond the realm of our logical thought processes. But it is really no more suprising than that old story of the mustard seed or that fact that we are alive today. Our logic is certainly a great tool but the source of the most fundamental understanding and inspiration is at a deeper level. You need soul to play blues music, not just guitar technique. Thanks, CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 17:48:48 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: It's a bit more than that Message: When I want to really know something I close my eyes and feel the peace inside. I remember reading about one famous inventor who would study, study, study and then lock himself in a quiet dark room for an hour with a pad of paper and a pen nearby. It is amazing what intelligence exists inside of each of us beyond the realm of our logical thought processes. Are you serious? You actually think this guy's mentation was 'beyond the realm' of logic? How astoundingly bizarre your notion of the mind must be. Chris, you really -- and I mean REALLY -- should do yourself a favour and add a few current brain science books to your list. You certainly wouldn't be saying foolish stuff like this if you did. But it is really no more suprising than that old story of the mustard seed or that fact that we are alive today. Yes, both miraculous aspects to the universe, neither of which I think you know the slightest thing about. But then that's how you like it, right? Our logic is certainly a great tool but the source of the most fundamental understanding and inspiration is at a deeper level. Do you have even the slightest, tiniest, faintest notion of how much logic you've employed to utter that one little statement? Think about it. You're just a walking contradiction, Chris. Pontificating about how we don't know anything. That's rich. You need soul to play blues music, not just guitar technique. What you need, Chris, is a brain. A brain'll come in handy for just about anything. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 18:48:03 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Jim Subject: why certainly Message: >Chris, you really -- and I mean REALLY -- should do yourself a favour and add a few current brain science books to your list. You certainly wouldn't be saying foolish stuff like this if you did. Yes, of course Mr. Know it All. Even Einstein admitted in his later years that he did not understand the secrets of the universe as you do. We have different viewpoints on this most fundamental issue that you have highlighted in your critique of my message. For you to be so arrogant as to think you are a priviledged one to lecture me on the 'correct understanding' in these matters is absurd. Fundamentally, both you and I are ego driven. We are both right of course! If I want more info on the academic viewpoint on brain functionality, it turns out that an old childhood friend of mine is an acclaimed professor in that area. >What you need, Chris, is a brain. A brain'll come in handy for just about anything. Quite true! How about 2 brains? Two are better than one. Maybe Gerry has a spare! Brain candy, now thats good stuff. Cheers, CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 19:07:48 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: You.. you.. NAMECALLER! Message: Don't be calling me names, you poo-poo head. See? I can do it too! 'Know-it-all'! That really hurt, Chris. Chris, I don't think Einstein's going to get you out of this one. The fact is you don't know shit about the brain. You don't want to know. You're like some classic guy who doesn't want to wait in the delivery room, thinking what he sees will spoil his fun later on. Am I right? Come on, tell me honestly: do you even want to understand how the brain functions? Yes or no? Straight qeustion, straight answer. Yes or no? If I want more info on the academic viewpoint on brain functionality, it turns out that an old childhood friend of mine is an acclaimed professor in that area. Then call him! Call him now. Call him and ask him something. Anything. (Just don't ask him one of your silly questions about pi or infinity, okay?). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 19:49:06 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Jim Subject: the brain Message: >The fact is you don't know shit about the brain. You don't want to know. Sure I do. Its got several parts, two halves and is made of grey cheese. If the blood supply gets cut off to any part then part of you stops working. Thats what happened to my boss when he died last year. It was unclear at a cetain point in time whether 'he' was really there or not in the hospital bed. The experts are still not sure where the foundation of your life exists. With all our great technology, the fundamental truths are still a mystery. You might find this book educational: The Victorian Internet OK, tell me something about the brain. Got an on-line article you want me to look at? I like to know stuff. I'm curious. Where does Jim Heller exist in that chemical miracle residing in your skull? Are atoms really made of energy? Are we energy? It takes a while to get to Mars so to reach that restaurant on the edge of the galaxy should be quite a trip. How much longer do you think you have got? CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 00:14:23 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: CD Subject: the brain Message: Chris, The last couple of weeks I was residing in my amygdalla primarily, but I found I had poor impulse control so I've moved. My new address is glyng@prefrontalcortex.com. You can email me there and arrange to borrow my spare brain. Well, borrow may be a bit overly generous; lease on agreeable terms would be more to my liking... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 16:50:39 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: gerry Subject: the brain on the Internet Message: >My new address is glyng@prefrontalcortex.com. You can email me there and arrange to borrow my spare brain. You do know that the next step is a direct Internet connection using electrodes implanted into the brain. There won't be any need to physically borrow your brain. I will simply be able to do a remote log-on. For example, if I want to produce a really detailed reply message I will simply log on to Jim Heller's brain, pause the '8 years in the ashram' service, upload an outline and filter the massive output into a concise one-page document. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 18:47:33 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: that's funny! Message: good one, CD. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 22:02:36 (EST)
From: tj Email: None To: Denise Subject: OMIGOD I HAD NO IDEA! Message: Denise: You have to be careful not to lose sight of your own experience and realization in life. The people here are very negative and they spin in a negative light everything that happened to them in the past regarding Maharaji and Knowledge. There is a lot of supposition and lies that get tossed around as if it were documented fact. Believe me, I've been around since those days too and it was nothing like that for me. Knowledge and the Master are meant to fulfill a specific reason in one's life. If you lose sight of the real reason you started following Maharaji you could be convinced away. My advice to you if I may, is to be true to your heart, and trust the feeling that comes from the heart because it never will steer you wrong. tj Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 23:57:57 (EST)
From: dv Email: None To: tj Subject: All your feelings that come Message: from your heart- what do you mean? How do you really know it comes from m? I hate to blow your bubble, but I could program myself to love my garage door and have the same experience. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 18:32:18 (EST)
From: tj Email: None To: dv Subject: All your feelings that come Message: The way you people talk you'd think that a human being today isn't capable of discerning for themself the difference between right and wrong. Like we're all weak minded and unable to know what within ourselves we can base truth upon. That is pure rubbish!! Maybe it's that way for you dv but I have more respect for myself than that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 19:29:23 (EST)
From: Skunkfart Email: None To: tj Subject: All your feelings that come Message: What feelings? What experience? It's all imaginary. There is no love. There is only hate. Hate for the 'master'. Hate for the 'knowledge.' Hate for the premies, who are all idiots. Hate for myself, for ever following this Saddam Hussein of the inner world. What a tyrant he is! Telling me I should explore some imaginary inner world. And I hate those stupid sunsets and flowers he seems to always have in those stupid videos. And the ocean. I hate the goddamn ocean! I hate the techniques. Everybody teaches them. You can get them at the supermarket, you can get them at restaurants. People have been showing me those stupid techniques my whole life, everywhere I go. Love this, love that...it's all crap! And his family are all awful. I hear the girls like to torture animals. That makes sense to me, it must be true. Stupid smiles, like they're all so high or something. I think we should just keep screaming at them 'til they all break down. Cast off the tyranny. I'm just so glad you're all here so I can speak the TRUTH. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 00:15:30 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: tj Subject: OMIGOD I HAD NO IDEA! Message: Knowledge and the Master are meant to fulfill a specific reason in one's life. God, this such nonsense. How hurtful and deceitful can one get? Really, I am increasingly amazed at the level of misunderstanding about these thing. tj, what's your story? I know you must be heavily invested in this trip and it is difficult to admit the possibility of having been so wron g for so many years. But yet, the freedom, the exhilaration at no longer having to comply to all these demands is true liberation. Let it go. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 02:44:30 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: gerry Subject: OMIGOD I HAD NO IDEA! Message: >But yet, the freedom, the exhilaration at no longer having to comply to all these demands is true liberation. Let it go. You quit in 1973 yet still talk about it to this day. How interesting! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 10:36:51 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: CD Subject: To Chris Message: Yes it's true, I was a premie from January 1973 and decided to throw in the towel after the laughable 'event' in the Houston Astrodome in November of that year. As I stated before, I didn't think about Goober for years at a time, only occasionally when some old acquaintence would bring it up. Then it was only embarrassing. I had convinced around a dozen people to get the big K and NOT ONE of them still 'practise.' Fortunately. When I got a computer and internet connection in '95, I did a search on M. It was a minor, but intense part of my life. Yeah, I remember it well. But then I remember a lot of details throughout my whole life and my childhood. So to say I still talk about to this day is misleading. There was a huge gap of at least two decades I rarely thought about it. Isn't that 'interesting,' Chris? I hang out here, because I'm isolated in a small town miles from any city of any significant size. I work at home and besides, it rains most of the time, so it's hard to get motivated to go out when there is no pressing need to do so. Except on the weekends when Patty is free to play. And the summers are great. And I like it here. Also I can see that there was a residue of toxic memories and misunderstandings which needed to cleared up. Is that ok with you, Chris? Chris, why is it you pop in with these one liners and rarely reveal anything of yourself. Makes me think perhaps you are just a numb, empty shell, devoid of any feelings, except, of course, 'graditude.' Keep those checks and visa card donations rolling, kids! Now if goober gives me back my vintage 1967 Fender Mustang guitar he stole from me (by aquiring it through false pretenses, LOTU) I'll consider going away. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 17:35:30 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: gerry Subject: To Chris Message: >Now if goober gives me back my vintage 1967 Fender Mustang guitar he stole from me (by aquiring it through false pretenses, LOTU) I'll consider going away. We have already gone over this. I gave up a Richenbacher 12 string and a Martin. But I do have 5 guitars now so that should be enough. anyway, its good to hear from you and certainly these conversations can have some value. keep it up. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 18:02:48 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: CD Subject: guitars (off topic) Message: Hi Chris, Do I detect a flicker of warmth here? ... its good to hear from you and certainly these conversations can have some value. keep it up. Anyway, Patty likes the ''keep it up'' part. Guitars: I still have the Yamaha I bought as a 16 year old in 1969. Also I made my self a Martin style dreadnought, Rosewood body, ebony fingerboard etc. that really booms. Also I own a 1953 Kay acoustic/electric with f holes, spruce top, curly maple back and side and large block pearl inlays as fret markers. It has a magnesium core neck which adjust at the neck/body joint by means of a set screw. The PU is a vinyl covered floating at the end of the fingerboard. It plays and sounds good. Did I tell you all this before? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 18:38:25 (EST)
From: tj Email: None To: gerry Subject: To Chris Message: Gerry: You have no idea what freedom and liberation Knowledge has brought me. And judging by your investment, you have no idea what is possible by practising Knowledge. You didn't even get your feet wet! So why do you have so much to say? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 20:23:55 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: tj Subject: To tj Message: Gerry: You have no idea what freedom and liberation Knowledge has brought me. You'e right. I'll ask again: what's your story, tj? Tell me a little so I can begin to understand where you're coming from. And judging by your investment, you have no idea what is possible by practising Knowledge. You didn't even get your feet wet! How do you know this? Actually I jumped in head first. It was short but very intense. I spent most of the time of my involvement in the cult as an ashram premie. So why do you have so much to say? Obviously you read what I wrote to Chris, so let's just call it my hobby. Are you trying to stifle my free speech? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 17:24:44 (EST)
From: tj Email: None To: gerry Subject: To tj Message: How do you know this? Actually I jumped in head first. It was short but very intense. I do know that it takes years before you really understand what Knowledge is. I can GUARANTEE your feet still are not wet, no matter how intense you went at it. In fact, you really can't see it straight until the intensity dies down and you start to live it as part of your normal life. As for free speech, you are free to talk about anything you want. But when people like you talk so 'knowingly' about a subject they know very little about, it cheapens the very meaning of free speech. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 18:01:27 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: tj Subject: are you psychic... Message: or just an asshole? I understand all I need to 'know' about Knowledge. It's a con game. There's nothing there. Why don't you fill me in me so I can 'see it straight' and join you in your elevated status. As for free speech, you are free to talk about anything you want. Hey, thanks for that. I appreciate your permission. But when people like you talk so 'knowingly' about a subject they know very little about, it cheapens the very meaning of free speech. So why don't you fill me in on the ''very meaning of free speech,'' since your the expert. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 07:48:00 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: tj Subject: Correction.... Message: tj, There is a lot of supposition and lies that get tossed around as if it were documented fact. Believe me, I've been around since those days too and it was nothing like that for me. I received K in 1972 and spent the next 10 years in ashrams and doing full-time service with and around the Family. I was a witness to the family's political battles, to the extreme measures they were prepared to take to protect themselves and to the lies, deceipt and downright corruption which was a daily part of M's life. Premies were so much cannon-fodder to this egomaniac. Ask Peter Potter about finances and, in particular, the legal battles with the British Charity Commission during the 70's. All to avoid paying income tax. Why? How does his supposed status now as some kind of advisor square with his claim then to have the status of a church? It's not hard to see the hypocrasy tj, but you do have to look. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 11:10:10 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: tj Subject: For tj and Denise Message: My advice to you if I may, is to be true to your heart, and trust the feeling that comes from the heart because it never will steer you wrong. Good advice, tj! I agree 100%. I trust my heart and that is why I didn't choose to follow Maharaji. Something just ' felt' wrong. I like a lot of his message and what he says. I agree we should enjoy our lives, etc. But I personally don't need a master to do this. If you do, and it gives you peace and no harm, good. Again, Denise needs to follow her heart (and her head, I might add). Either way. Even at the risk of being 'convinced away'-right? The people here are very negative Do you know me? Have you been in my home? Have we actually sat down and talked. You know the same could be said about you. So far, every post I have read by you has been negative and defensive. But again, I don't really know you, do I? I would appreciate it if you would quit with the blanket prejudicial statements about the people here. I have met several of them in person (and on the phone) They are positive, upbeat and delightful. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 20:07:13 (EST)
From: tj Email: None To: VP Subject: For tj and Denise Message: VP: Every post I've contributed so far has been very positive and upbeat -- about Maharaji and Knowledge. Almost everyone of the ex's ARE negative about Mahatraji and Knowledge. They could very well be upbeat and happy folk concerning other areas of their life but the point I was making has nothing to do with that. Nothing prejudiced, just stating the fact. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 04:14:37 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: tj & all premies Subject: WE ARE NEGATIVE Message: Well this is the EX-PREMIE forum!!!! Yes WE ARE NEGATIVE ABOUT GURU MAHARAJI. Most of us are not positive about Guru Maharaji. Some of us try to be as objective and self-reflective as possible about our experiences with Maharaji, but for the most part we are NOT POSITIVE about him. To quote Gerry's hilarious question to CD: IS THAT OKAY WITH YOU????? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 11:15:09 (EST)
From: Ex-English Professor Email: None To: tj Subject: For tj and Denise Message: They could very well be upbeat and happy folk concerning other areas of their life but the point I was making has nothing to do with that. Let's look at what you said again: The people here are very negative and they spin in a negative light everything that happened to them in the past regarding Maharaji and Knowledge. Those are two different ideas seperated by the conjunction 'and'. Only the second idea actually states anything about Maharaji. The first idea simply states that we are very negative people. Your first idea in that sentence was the one to which I was objecting. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 07:28:16 (EST)
From: Richard Email: rich2@globalnet.co.uk To: Denise Subject: OMIGOD I HAD NO IDEA! Message: Hi Denise, Problem for me is nothing bad has personally happened to me because of taking M for my Master. your maybe just a step away. The problem is that many, many of the people who got involved with the BM did not have balanced lives to begin with, were hurting anyway and looking for some kind of salvation. That's what he promised..yeah?? Yes I'm sure that strong individuals with high self esteem can survive the experience. But the people who, like me, were hoping for something in exchange for giving absolutely everything, and we're not talking worldly goods alone here, ended up in a vacuum. If you only judge M by what he did or did not do to you you are missing the point. This kind of con destroys lives, lifestyles, hopes and dreams. You can't legislate for what people believe but you can try to protect them from what others may try to squeeze from those beliefs. You may not have given anything, but others gave everything. You may not have been hurt, but others have been devastated. Now that you are beginning to see what went before, can you really believe what he says now? Good luck with your research, you may have a rocky time ahead. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 22:35:49 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Richard Subject: OMIGOD I HAD NO IDEA! Message: >But the people who, like me, were hoping for something in exchange for giving absolutely everything, You gave the inner experience of your own self a high priority and you got nothing? An important feeling doesn't exist inside of you? Somebody goes on a trip to a famous city and has high expectations but the city is quite different than they imagined. They can leave dissapointed or surrender their concepts and explore what the reality has to offer. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 10:42:06 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Denise Subject: Denis, Think About It Message: Plus, as I've stated over and over, my experience of K has been so good that maybe if I was told I couldn't keep experiencing it unless I lived in the ashram and followed rules, I just may have. Denise, besides considering the damage done to many others, you might also want to consider that one of the characteristics of a cult is that the programming makes it difficult to even see the damage done to yourself. Even if you didn't live in an ashram, if you went through the aspriant process, sat for hundreds of hours in satsang, listen to possibly hundreds of hours of videos, and accepted the belief system from initiators, instructors and other premies, you might well lack the objectivity to even see what has happened to you. This was certainly true for me. I swore I was having a beautiful and wonderful experience as a premie, and attributed it all to practicing knowledge and to Maharaji. The atrocities of the ashram and the cult in general got me to leave all that, but it was some time after that when I was able to see the damage that was done to me, on a psychological, self-esteem, adjustment level, let alone the physical, financial, and social level. It was then that I began to grow again, get my life back, and become self-directed. Again, the deceit these days is no different It is convincing people that a nice experience they have in meditation, has something to do with Maharaji, and from their accepting a belief system about where the experience comes from. That's the big lie, and to keep the lie going Maharaji says you have to have UNDERSTANDING. If what he was saying was true, that the experience was all it was about, why would you need UNDERSTANDING? To varying degrees, he also has programs at which some premies get a 'group high' no different than what happens at religious revivals and Amway Conventions. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 10:43:20 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: JW Subject: Sorry, Denies, Not Denis (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 11:52:30 (EST)
From: Orlando Email: None To: JW Subject: Atrocities of ashram Message: JW, i have lived in the ashram from 1973 to the 'closing time' and have not witnessed any 'atrocities' . i did witness many unhappy people who were living there but clearly did not belong there. They were there because they had a big idea of what it was supposed to be, and it never materialized. Those who had the courage to admit to themselves that they were not happy in this situation, moved out and moved on without anger and bitterness. those who were the most bitter were those who had huge expectations about it. i noticed over the years that there were 2 types of ashram premies : the uptight ones, going by the book and the looser ones, enjoying life and having a good time. i noticed that the looser ones are still around. the uptight ones got frustrated and many left. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 14:09:24 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Orlando Subject: Atrocities of ashram Message: I have lived in the ashram from 1973 to the 'closing time' and have not witnessed any 'atrocities' . i did witness many unhappy people who were living there but clearly did not belong there. This is an atrocity in my book. It's always an atrocity when people waste years of their lives doing something they are unsuited for and are unhappy doing. I fell into that category, and I can't speak for others, but the reason I stayed in the ashram situation, which I hated, was because I wanted to dedicate my life to Maharaji, and this was the system he had set up for doing that , and I'm sure you recall those ashram meetings we had with Maharaji. Well, he said a lot of disparaging stuff about anyone who was considering ever leaving the ashram in those meetings. Plus, if you wanted to be an initiator, you had to be in the ashram. I also witnessed other 'atrocities' that I have mentioned and are described throughout AE's site. You were lucky you missed them. i did witness many unhappy people who were living there but clearly did not belong there. They were there because they had a big idea of what it was supposed to be, and it never materialized. What are you, a mind reader? How do you know why people were there? The fact is, you have no idea. Speak for yourself if you want to, but you have no credibility about saying what the motivations of anyone else was, and certainly not me. Those who had the courage to admit to themselves that they were not happy in this situation, moved out and moved on without anger and bitterness. Well, I know people who moved out and felt terribly guilty and like failures for doing so and, aside from 1976, they moved out because the had to, like they were pregnant, or got someone pregnant, or they were kicked out for not following the rules. I don't know anybody who just 'decided' to moved out because they thought they would be happier some place else. It wasn't about being happy, it was about dedication and devotion. Plus, I remember Maharaji saying that once he was reviewing initiator applications and if someone answered 'yes' to the question about ever having moved out of the ashram, he said he wanted to 'throw the application against the wall' because the person just didn't understand about dedication, devotion and surrender to Guru Maharaj Ji. If you believed Maharaj was the perfect master, you did what he said, you didn't do what you wanted to do. Your memory is highly revisionist if you ask me. i noticed over the years that there were 2 types of ashram premies : the uptight ones, going by the book and the looser ones, enjoying life and having a good time. Bullshit. There were all kinds of ashram premies, but if they were living in the ashram and weren't following the rules, they got kicked out. I had a lot of good times in the ashram, but mostly I didn't, and it was a waste of time, whether I enjoyed it or not. That's really irrelevent. And Maharaji raised not one finger to have any interest in the ashram premies, or showed any concern as to whether they were happy or sad. He just demanded more surrender and dedication. Orlando, your post gives new meaning to the statement 'blaming the victim.' It just amazes me how premies well reinvent history, and blame the premies, all to avoid even the teensiest criticism of Maharaji. It's both intellectually dishonest and an insult to my intelligence. Orlando, I was there, I know what I saw, so don't try to tell me I got it wrong. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 14:11:38 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: JW Subject: Hell -sorry-- Forum Elves Message: Dear website elves: I failed to close my html. Can you repair? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 22:56:00 (EST)
From: chr Email: None To: JW Subject: Atrocities of ashram Message: Hi JW, I agree.The ashram robbed us of potential and growth.The focus ,being totally on M,meant that lives stagnated.To me now, it seems like I spent 10 years in a kind of lifeless limbo.I learnt very little,if nothing about life or my fellow human beings . I was 31 when the ashrams finished and I knew very little about how to relate to people in the real world-let alone how to be in a relationship.Its a small miracle ( and a lot angst ,learning and growth) that I've been pretty much with the same partner since then.I think the worst time was during 81/82 when that purge was going on. People were asked to leave because David Smith or Padarthanand ( I cant remember who else was involved) deemed that they were not suitable.I knew a few premies who were asked to leave and they felt really awful about themselves and that they were failures.Of course I and others did very little to help -after all it was what M wanted and they just needed to surrender a bit more. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 00:56:49 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: chr Subject: Atrocities of ashram Message: Your history sounds a lot like mine. I also spent almost 10 years in the ashram. I also remember the 1981 inquisition, which was performed on the West Coast by David Smith and I remember he did force a few people out. It was so weird because you were supposed to demonstrate that you were super ashram premie, super devoted and surrendered, and then about a year later, Maharaji just dumped the ashram premies on the streets. I agree, that inquisition period was the absolute worst period for me in the ashram. In fact, it was the thing that finally broke my faith in Maharaji because Smith was so cruel and nasty to people who had dedicated their lives to the lord and he did it in the name of Maharaji. I was lucky in the sense that I was often community coordinator and ashram housefather, so I handled money and took care of 'worldly' things, and, except for a few years in the late 70s and early 80s, I had a job in the real world and I didn't work with premies. So, I made some non-premie 'normal' friends, although David Smith persecuted me for doing so. I had to stay friends with these people in secret for awhile. So, it wasn't such a shock to move out on my own. I also had a pretty good job that paid pretty well. The only other saving grace was that I had gotten my BA prior to moving into the ashram, (thank God) so I didn't have to start from scratch when I got out. Relationships? Forget it. I was so repressed from the ashram years, I didn't even know what my sexual orientation was. It took a few years before I even entertained the idea of a relationship and then it was a total of about 5 years before I had one. It also took about 5 years of therapy, but that's another story. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 03:29:25 (EST)
From: chr Email: None To: JW Subject: Atrocities of ashram Message: I luckily had a degree too and I had managed to further it in 1976. I had been in and out of jobs depending on whether I was needed in full time service.It got to the point where it was ridiculous.Fortunately enough time has passed that I don't need to mention anything on my resume prior to 83.The insidious thing is I didnt realize how fucked up I had become.I thought I was fine.I remember the incredible feeling of freedom I had when I decided I no longer wanted to follow M.Once the elation settled down I began to see what had happened to me.As far as the 81 purge goes,I never did understand the criteria.There were premies asked to leave who seemed very sincere and others allowed to stay who were breaking ashram rules all over the place. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 10:13:35 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: chr Subject: Atrocities of ashram Message: As far as the 81 purge goes,I never did understand the criteria.There were premies asked to leave who seemed very sincere and others allowed to stay who were breaking ashram rules all over the place. That was the worst thing about it. There wasn't any objective criterea. It was like Kafka. It didn't matter about what was really going on, it was all arbitrary. One of the criterea seemed to be money. If you made a lot of money, you probably could stay. If you were a good bullshitter, you could stay. If you could fake sincerity and devotion and that fake blissful smile, you could stay. If you were good at sucking up to the initiator in charge you could stay. In fact, some of the more sincere people got kicked out because they WERE sincere. They admitted their doubts and weaknesses and were sort of forced into deciding to leave. It was a horrible feeling, I remember, because you could see it as some kind of lila or test of your devotion to stick it out despite your own failings and doubts, while at the same time part of you wanted to leave the pressure cooker. At least that's the say I felt. Yes, I felt some euphoria at first as well. I got my own place -- I disassociated myself from premies and I made new friends. I felt like I was getting my life back. But about 6 months later it hit. That's when I began therapy, which was very confronting, but very beneficial. It was then that I began to see the damage the cult caused me. But I think also that's when the repair process began, which continues, helped a lot by this forum. By the way, I really appreciate your posts. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 16:50:23 (EST)
From: chr Email: None To: JW Subject: Atrocities of ashram Message: Thanks JW, BTW sometime over the next couple of days I'm going to email you re a friend of mine who you might possibly know about.I don't want to put his name on the forum but am curious about a situation that occurred between him and M that you may know something about because of your position as CC in Miami. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 17:11:23 (EST)
From: JW Email: joger02@aol.com To: chr Subject: Atrocities of ashram Message: chr, Sure, I've included my e-mail. I'd be glad to tell you anything I know, but I find I have forgotten a lot of names from 15 or 20 years ago especially the thousands of premies who were in Miami. By the way, other than the service you did for security, what ashrams did you live in? Do I know who you are? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 17:40:06 (EST)
From: HALIP Email: None To: Denise Subject: OMIGOD I HAD NO IDEA! Message: Neither did I, Dear Denise, neither did I... Well, it goes to show that enlightment is not always what we think it would be. Anyvay, keep on reading. Nothing bad ever happened to me from being involved in this whole trip, but the manipulation, the secretiveness, the paranoia, the 'do as I say, but not as I do' attitude that M has, the lifestyle he revels in, the whole general dishonesty he displays and ego-trip he's on was a BIG turn-off... so I quit. But take your time, read on, think about it, ask questions, don't swallow things whole (whatever they are and wherever you read them) and more importantly, be true to YOURSELF. You only can be the judge of what is right or wrong FOR YOU, what is good or bad FOR YOU. I'm with you wholeheartedly ! Best of luck ! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 20:41:43 (EST)
From: Denise Email: None To: HALIP Subject: OMIGOD I HAD NO IDEA! Message: Thank you for your post. I am still glued to this site and I must admit it's really beginning to hurt. There are some things I just can't deny any more. Still don't know where I stand, but I know which way I seem to be heading... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 13:21:29 (EST)
From: ben there Email: None To: Everyone Subject: the great leveler cometh Message: One of the many stories I remember from my days of gullibiliy was told by some 'so called' mahatma. The story was about a group of people who were walking through the jungle. There they spied a most horrendous event in process. It was a huge python being devoured by an army of ants. One member or the group asked, 'what can this gruesome event mean?' A wise one among the group replied, the python was a false guru, the ants are those that followed him. They are now taking him apart, stripping his flesh piece by piece while he squirms and wriggles in utter agony.' This site is the embodiment of that story. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 18:21:22 (EST)
From: shri hans told that Email: None To: ben there Subject: story , ben......bb(nt) Message: fgghjd Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 22:54:52 (EST)
From: AE Email: None To: ben there Subject: the great leveler cometh Message: That's a good point there, ben there. Some people may wonder why we are so against Maharaji. For me it was the fact that he played the Lord card, not because he was deluded or mentally ill (which I'm sure he's not) but for the simple reason that it made money. He messed up a lot of people who believed he was the Lord. If he had just been a bad guru, I don't think he would have engendered too much antagonism. But to exploit people who sincerely believed he was God incarnate - that takes the biscuit and is utterly diabolical. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 11:51:11 (EST)
From: AE Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Losses & shattered lives Message: There's a lot more stuff on The truth about Maharaji web site. I found your old post I mentioned, Bill. If anyone knows of the whereabouts of more of the Deca posts then please email me (I am the TAM webmaster). I'll find these post eventually though. Thanks to all contributers. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 10:19:04 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The Torture of Guru Maharaj Ji Message: Reading Nigel's response to Red Heart, in the thread below, reminded me of the days when BM had a giant cookie installed in my brain. Everything I saw, heard and felt was interpreted as Guru Maharaj Ji (He encouraged, even insisted that). One was always supposed to pray to Guru Maharaj Ji, also, and if you didn't, the consequences could be severe. The consequences were never forgotten, because the Goomer wouldn't let us. The mind... ahhh, it would eat you alive. Being in your mind after having experienced the Grace of BM was like 'dropping a crystal glass and having it shatter into so many pieces you couldn't put it back together'. After Guru Maharaj Ji said 'Not a leaf on a tree shakes without Guru Maharaj Ji's Grace', I saw everything as though it was in his control. It was an intense paranoid delusion and I suffered alot from it. Maharaji taught that if you made the right, sincere and intense effort then everything would fall in place for you, and if you weren't experiencing bliss then it was your own mind. No matter what happened He was perfect. And naturally, things in the world go wrong... things break down or don't succeed, accidents happen, etc. All the while, incredible worry is heaped on that you aren't doing something right... you aren't making enough effort because Guru's Grace doesn't seem to be kicking in. Then as the cult develops and everyone figures out that we're not going to hit all green lights while we're driving, the Guru's assitants introduce the idea that EVERYTHING is Guru's grace. It's his Lila (or divine dance) and no matter what happens it's Guru's Grace working to bring us all to perfection. But I was still troubled after years of practising knowledge intensely. I gave it everything I had, but the more I put my 'problems in my back pocket' (as Guru Maharaj Ji insisted), the more they festered. Until, after years of choked emotion, and issues that were left unattended, I just couldn't take it anymore. I just had to get that big Cookie off my mental hard drive. And what a relief it was. The cult is different now, but as Nigel points out, the magical thinking is still there. The rewards are only vaguely described... 'wonderful', 'beautiful', 'natural'... all words that can mean almost anything. But the Guru still claims you can't get this anywhere else, and that's it's the best thing there is, period. And the delusional thinking is still there, that somehow the Guru is magically delivering a terrific experience, that you were convinced you were starving and thirsting for, before it would be 'given' to you. Yes, it's still a classic cult with classic brainwashing techniques. Ordinary people wanting extraordinary things. Who doesn't. Then the Guru comes along and says he has what you've been looking for. All you have to do is listen. People give testimonials filled with conviction that this experience that the Guru gives is what they've been looking for their whole lives. But... but, you have to remove your doubts before the Guru will give you the experience. Yes, folks, this is still a cult and the Guru still programs your mind. He's refined his techniques, like any good grifter, and in the end, when you lift your head up, you have nothing, and your wallet (or your life) is empty. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 10:31:08 (EST)
From: Denise Email: None To: Rick Subject: The Torture of Guru Maharaj Ji Message: As I just posted, I admit to confusion. However, for me, Knowledge (the meditation and experiences due to) really has been wonderful, basicallly, everything it was promised to be. However much I ever doubt M, K I have no doubts about and never will. Not in his defense, but let's say he is the only one alive giving K to people and continues to offer it free and continues not to ask for donations, slave labor, worship, devotion, or whatever. What would be wrong with that? Would y'all feel better if he said he was a meditiation teacher, it costs X amount of dollars to learn the meditation, you get your product, it works and you go home happy? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 10:39:28 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Denise Subject: The Truth aboutGuru Maharaj Ji Message: But he's not the only person teaching raj yoga. Those techniques exist throughout India, China, and all points in between, not to mention in the West. And if you want to insist that he's 'giving it for free' or some such cultist party line, you can, but you will probably believe it longer if you don't mention here. We just won't buy it. I agree with you that the meditation is a good thing. Jean-Michel's site (linked to this one somewhere on this site) can tell you more of the specific history and get you up to speed on how and what the knowledge really is in the world. I agree it's good. It could bring a secular religion, capable of bypassing the moralistic bs that has become an attitudinal exercise in control by many religious leaders. But it hasn't. Look at the dogmatic cultism that premies who post on this site display. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 10:53:39 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Denise Subject: The Torture of Guru Maharaj Ji Message: The thing about 'knowledge' is that the more you examine it, the less there is. When you say that knowledge has been 'wonderful', it could mean anything. To anyone who doesn't know you thoroughly, it just means you 'think' it's good. If you explain in detail what you mean when you say it's wonderful (describe specific experiences, events, feelings, etc), it'll be possible to respond to you. Also, if you explain in detail what you were promised, it will be possible to address that. But more importantly, you might see that you were convinced before you started. I'd be willing to bet that what you were convinced of and what you realy have, is a house of cards. I'm not saying there isn't such a thing as a wonderful experience, or that you don't have it. I'm just saying Maharaji didn't give it to you. Part of it is just from life, and part of it is due to your own efforts. What Maharaji actually gives is so small, that in comparison to what he damages, it makes him a liar and a fraud. The instructions he gives for meditation are very vague and limited. He really doesn't teach meditation; he just shows four techniques. The rest is His Grace. But you really have to examine things to find out there really isn't such a thing. It doesn't exist. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 11:49:40 (EST)
From: Denise Email: None To: Rick Subject: The Torture of Guru Maharaj Ji Message: Can't get all into it now, but re: K experiences I've had, basically had to do with changes in consciousness that were extremely blissful and fulfilling for one. Have read about it in psychological lit. in different places called different things. Also, #3 technique fills me with such a feeling of peace and love I can't deny. Yes, it is probably biochemical, I can feel the vibration inside. Re: preconceived ideas, didn't have much notion about what would happen when I recieved K, remember, times had changed and premies were still having satsang (which I attended), but basically supposed to not discuss the past, etc. All I knew was that I had a spiritual need that wasn't being fulfilled and had been convinced for a few years that meditation was the way. Tried all different kinds of techniques for a few years and nothing. Then, at my K session, the first technique blew me away. I knew immediately it was what I'd been searching for. Didn't trust M at the time, was freaked out even before receiving K that premies said M was the Lord and this almost prevented me from receiving K in the first place. The whole first year I meditated a lot and enjoyed it immensly but still had doubts about M which I felt quite guilty about, seeing as I was having such a great experience. Finally, I gave in to the premies telling me it was because of M that I was given such a beautiful experience in the first place and I projected (I guess) the love and peace I was feeling inside to M. It made sense to me. I guess this is the only part I'm unsure of now. For me, you must remember that there was no service to be had at the time, and I don't think I even knew what service was anyway, until much, much later. The money I gave was not for at least 4 years later when I finished graduate school and began working and even then my pay was so low I could only send about $15 a month or so, which I faithfully did for years. There was no psychological abuse, no guilt trips, nothing. The only thing I did notice was a bunch of aging hippies who hadn't done much with their lives but I rationalized that by thinking 'But look how blissed out they are!'. I was the baby in most communities and am probably at least 10 years younger than most of you. Anyway, now my husband's impression of the community we live in now is that most of the people are dysfunctional --i.e. in their late 40's, early 50's and still haven't gotten a real career going. Well, I'm rambling. I plan to stay active in this site for a while until I learn all I feel I need to and would appreciate any help y'all could give me. If I make pro M comments, these are my perceptions and I invite y'all to give your views. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 12:37:21 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Denise Subject: The Torture of Guru Maharaj Ji Message: Finally, I gave in to the premies telling me it was because of M that I was given such a beautiful experience in the first place and I projected (I guess) the love and peace I was feeling inside to M. It made sense to me. I guess this is the only part I'm unsure of now. I think this is how it worked for alot of us. You were being programmed to believe that Maharaji was creating your experience. Of course, this is untrue and it makes sense you're unsure of it. We were all unsure of it, even while while Maharaji was touting himself as God, and we were repeating it. If you think clearly and examine things closely, you'll see he's just an ordinary person who defrauded people to believe he was God. Your experience won't change when you see him for what he is. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 11:03:03 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Denise Subject: The tortue from Maharaji Message: Would y'all feel better if he said he was a meditiation teacher, it costs X amount of dollars to learn the meditation, you get your product, it works and you go home happy? Hi Denise, Yes, I think this would be a sane and practical way of going about this business. Also I think he should state upfront that it may not be effective for each person, that there are many different types of meditation, some of which may be better suited to a given individual. And it would be nice if he offered a money back guarantee to those who may be dissatisfied. :-) The rest of the trappings, Lord of the Universe (former) graditide, devotion, donations,etc are just that trappings designed to squeeze out as much money and power as possible. What I don't understand this: ok, someone taught you something you consider to be of value. Do you then 'keep in touch' 'express graditude through giving money' and 'keep secret,' that which you have learned? I suppose a lot of college professors might be happy to see checks in their mailboxes from thankful students, but I just don't see this happening. Why should a 'teacher of meditation' be treated any differently? The reason why it is so, is because you submit yourself to regular doses of what really is brainwashing: through videos, live programs, satellite programs, music, etc. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 15:50:38 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: gerry Subject: The tortue from Maharaji Message: Dear Gerry, 'What I don't understand this: ok, someone taught you something you consider to be of value. Do you then 'keep in touch' 'express graditude through giving money'and 'keep secret,' that which you have learned? I suppose a lot of college professors might be happy to see checks in their mailboxes from thankful students, but I just don't see this happening. Why should a 'teacher of meditation' be treated any differently?' This says it all! Thanks. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 18:11:23 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Robyn Subject: The torture from Maharaji Message: Hey thanks Robyn! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 12:55:08 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Denise Subject: The Torture of Guru Maharaj Ji Message: Would y'all feel better if he said he was a meditiation teacher, it costs X amount of dollars to learn the meditation, you get your product, it works and you go home happy? I'd like to answer yes to this question, Denise, but the truth is, when I was first introduced to Knowledge, what attracted me was the talk that Maharaji was the Living Perfect Master and Knowledge was the same meditation techniques that Jesus taught to his disciples. People were making references to the scriptures such as the woman at the well who Jesus told he had water where she would never thirst again. This was supposed to be nectar. 'In the beginning was the Word' was supposed to be the Holy Word. 'If thine eye be single, thy body will be full of light' was supposed to be the Light. The prospect that Maharaji was giving what Jesus gave before him was a powerful drawing card. I never would have had the same interest in Knowledge, otherwise. In fact, if Maharaji had charged for Knowledge, I would have thought less of it. It wouldn't have held such a divine aura for me if I had to pay for it. No, the fact that it was free and, supposedly, that Jesus revealed this Knowledge, also, were the two most important factors to my pursuing it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 12:29:57 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Rick Subject: The Torture of Guru Maharaj Ji Message: Hey Rick, Well my self-imposed break from the forum lasted all of 12 hours, didn't it? That line about 'shattering a glass into a million pieces and then trying to put it back together', is a direct rip-off from Judiasm by the way. At a lot of Jewish wedding ceremonies the rabbi will crush a glass under his foot and occasionally will add this twist to the old custom: The rabbii will say ' if the bride or groom commits adultery, restoring trust to the marriage is as difficult as putting these pieces back together.' Maharaji is always ripping stuff off of other people. Can't he come up with anything original? Glad you are getting those cookie chips out of your brain. Cheers, Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 12:44:00 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Helen Subject: The Torture of Guru Maharaj Ji Message: Hi Helen, Yes, it's hard to stay away. It's annoying to hear apologies or excuses for BM, but even harder to ignore. Being Jewish, I know quite well about the glass at the wedding. I don't know if BM was even aware of that. I find it more insidious that he perpetrated a veiled threat of our destruction if we didn't surrender to him. Maharaji really is evil. Rick Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 12:57:53 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Rick & Denise Subject: RANT Message: Rick, Thank you so much for saying he's evil. I am really fed up with people hedging around about Maharaji. I totally agree with you about those veiled threats--I know how powerful his hold was on many. If that is not a control trip, what is?. I mean that is PATHETIC that he used such methods to keep his premies in line and keeping the money and his horrendously opulent lifestyle flowing. And remember, dear Denise, many of these premies who supported Maharaji had NO MONEY, no clothes for their kids, no car, barely were paying their rent. Do you think this was a LOVING thing to do, for Maharaji to continue taking their money, having festivals, etc., you tell me?????? I can't imagine how you can still support this guy--I mean he is SUCH a disgrace to the human race. You seem to be open to questioning things, Denise. Have you read The Guru Papers yet? Just look it up on the internet, you'll find some excerpts from it. Okay, I'm outta here and off to the gym Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 09:56:40 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Lord or Liar? STOP IT! Message: M just wrote on his website, in his 'journey' section : 'Quite a few people wanted to see me as a figurehead. I didn't want to be one and I am not one. A few others saw me as a leader, and I didn't want to be one and I am not one.' I guess that most of the premies have heard him say things like (all this has been transcribed and published in DLM/EV's magazines) : 'Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destroyer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth ......' or 'And if there has to be devotee, he has to be in a physical form. A devotee has to devote something. Have you understood now ? To devote something, he has to be in a physical form. And where is it possible for him to be in physical form ? On the earth. And with whom can he be in the physical form ? With the Lord, who is in His physical form ! He has to be with the Physical Lord who has come into this physical world with a Physical Body. Understood.' or 'Look it's beyone liberation. It's beyond all those things. Beyond all concepts. In this lifetime, we have the opportunity to realize, to be with GURU MAHARAJ JI. Be it not GURU MAHARAJ JI - You know maybe they didn't call him GURU MAHARAJ JI - Maybe they called him Lord, anything to be with that power. To be with that thing. To be not infinite. And yet to be with the infinite. To be here as individuals. And yet to be able to be next to the person who is everything, GURU MAHARAJ JI. The Lord all powerful.....' or 'Do you need me? I am with you. You can't see me, though I'm the light that allows you too see me. You can't hear me though I talk through your voice. You can't feel me, though I'm the power that works in your hands. I'm working within you though you ignore my paths. I'm working though you don't recognize my work. I'm not a strange vision. I'm not a mystery - only in absolute silence beyond the personality that you seem to be; and then only like a feeling and like faith. Still I'm with you, still I hear you, still I can answer you. When you need me, I'm with you and I help you. In the moments in which you think you only find yourself, I'm with you. Even in your fears. Even in your pain, even when you meditate and when you don't meditate. I'm within you and you're within me. Only in your mind are the problems of 'mine' and 'yours', but still only with your mind you can know and perceive me. Empty your heart of ignorant fears because apart from your personality, in between, I will be with you. By yourself, you cannot do anything, but I can do everything. Though you cannot see the good - The good is there. Because I am there, because I have to be, because I am everything. Only in me the world has meaning. Only when you are in me, the world will take it's true shape. Only because I am the law, in which rests the movement of the stars and the growth of each living cell. I am the love that is the fulfillment of the law; I am safety; I am your peace; I am everything. Though you fail finding me, I never fail finding you. Though your faith in me is insecure, my faith in you never vanishes. Though you give your faith and love senselessly to others, My love is only for you, because I know you, because I love you.' I can't understand how both ways of putting it are compatible! Whether really he's the Lord of the Universe, and his 'journey' is a lie or he lied saying he's the LOTU, and he's really no figurehead or I don't understand anything of his logic. Being what he thinks he is, could he say anything and anything he says is true? I don't understand, and I doubt anybody will! What's his credibility? And I've been horrified by his website. 1/ the layout is terrible, it looks like some hellish arcade games 2/ the copyright stuff is awful: you click on the light, you're ready for the experience of your life, and you get to one of the worse thing you get to see on the web. I've seen some awful websites, like those showing corpses and body parts, and I would rate the maharaji.org right next to those. 3/ his cookie sytem is monstrous. Even Microsoft doesn't do this! 4/ the content is empty. It only looks like some justification for the critics he's getting. No presentation of his 'beautiful knowledge' whatsoever. Very very strange indeed! I am really wondering what the premies think seeing something like this as the frontpage of their beloved knowledge! Ashamed watching their maharaji displaying something like this? I would have been ashamed 3 years ago, honestly. I would quote him again, 'when you do something wrong, there will be no one around to stop you.' Prempal Rawat, you're doing something awfully wrong! Stop it! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 10:19:19 (EST)
From: Denise Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Lord or Liar? STOP IT! Message: Y'all are making me very confused! Don't know what to think any more. Jean-Michel, thanks for this posting. I need to see more factual info./ rebuttals (sp?). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 11:28:07 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Denise Subject: Denise Denise! Message: Why do you think I'm shouting all this? The facts: I own a lot of these magazines, like many premies and exes. These quotes have been gathered from all those public printed materials. I would even add that M's words have usually been moderated by the publication's editor. I've been involved in DLM/EV's publications for decades, and I've witnessed it. I've been very much hurted by m's claims. Unknowingly, and I finally undertood how damaging it is to believe in that kind of stuff. I've seen the damage in me, and I've seen it in my friends' lives, & I really love them in spite of their involvement. What can I say? Did you really read what m says on his site? What does it really show of knowledge? or I would rather say what does it show of his author? Can't you see a bit of the author's personnality through his creation? What would YOU think of your best friend doing something like this, I mean, sincerely? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 11:59:51 (EST)
From: Denise Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Denise Denise! Message: Sorry, but I kinda liked M's page. Brief, but maybe y'all have saying too much that could be misconstrued. The funny thing is as much as y'all joke about clicking on the light, both my husband (who's not a premie) and I both think it's really cool, especially the graphics. So what's wrong with his page? Is it the part about saying he didn't want to be a leader? All I can say is my thought about this is you have to look at the whold picture--he was a young foreign boy who only knew of things a certain way and brought them to this country that way under the guidance of family, mahatmas, etc. When he got older and wiser, he got rid of all the Indian trappings and now you've got somethings much simpler. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 12:16:54 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Denise Subject: Rid of the Hindu trappings? Message: There are quotes of the 90s showing that he's not out of the Hindu stuff AT ALL ! Have you been a part of that meeting in Mauritius in August 96? That was a satsang. I bet you won't get easily the recording, why don't you try. He spoke for 1 hour 1/2, and Visions made a 30 minute video out of it, cutting the main part. EVERYBODY should be able to liste to it ! I hope somebody will dare make a copy of this stuff, that's unvaluable. I don't know if he was drunk or something, but that was no human being talk! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 12:26:18 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Denise Subject: Denise Denise! Message: All I can say is my thought about this is you have to look at the whold picture--he was a young foreign boy who only knew of things a certain way and brought them to this country that way under the guidance of family, mahatmas, etc. When he got older and wiser, he got rid of all the Indian trappings and now you've got somethings much simpler. Denise, You keep repeating this but it isn't true. I received knowledge in 1977. Guru Maharaj Ji had just dropped the emphasis on Indian trappings, and westernized the whole operation. He dressed in expensive suits; his assisants changed from 'mahatmas' to 'initiators' and started wearing slacks and sportshirts instead of robes. Simultaneously, he launched a huge drive for devotion and total surrender. In 1976, he made a similar move as in 1983. He changed the emphasis from devotion to being a meditation teacher. He accepted people having other things in their lives besides knowledge and him. But then, in 1977, he went back to demanding total devotion and surrender. He was 20 years old at that time--old enough to be held responsible for misleading people and damaging their lives. If it was a 'mistake', he could have apologized and asked for forgiveness. But he covered it up, and found a clever way to reinvent himself for the nineties. A new and kinder Guru. He's still a fraud, Denise, and his 'knowledge' is an empty bag of tricks. The guy is a slime and you protect and apologize for him. Shame on you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 13:09:22 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Rick Subject: Queue for Darshan still on! Message: And what about darshan? how many, and where in 1998? Will any premie dare admit this? Africa, Amaroo, Japan? Malaysia? India of course & Nepal, where 1000s of westerners were invited. Do you remember what he recently said and was on several videos? The 2nd most important thing in knowledge, for him, after receiving k, is 'paying respect' to the 'master' !!!!! What does this mean? talk of getting rid of the Hindu stuff!!!! WHO IS LYING ??? Me ? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 13:53:45 (EST)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Queue for Darshan still on! Message: How about this quote? I'm not sure I've seen it in this or your site. Prem Pal said on 6th November at Orlando To me the most ultimate experience in my life became Guru maharaj Ji not even Knowledge, and when it became Guru Maharaj Ji it was so beautiful because I could attach myself to that experience, because Guru Maharaj Ji was in this world, Guru Maharaj Ji was there, and I remember every experience of standing in front of Him and experiencing a stage of Mindlessness, where even you can call uipon the mind as loud as you want but it is not there. A stage of where future does not matter, past doesn't matter and you're definitely not in the present. I think that stage is called ecstasy an incredible bliss' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 13:30:11 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Denise Subject: Denise Denise! Message: When he got older and wiser, he got rid of all the Indian trappings and now you've got somethings much simpler. Denise, I would hardly call what M has got going today, simple. Are you aware of today's aspirant process, how long a person has to wait before receiving Knowledge (I think six months)? Then you might have to fly halfway around the world, at your own expense, in the hopes that you'll be chosen for a Knowledge session. Maharaji, on a whim, might decide that you're not ready yet and tell you to just keep seeing videos and following him around till he thinks you're ready. The only defense for this is that you have to prove that you're really thirsty for Knowledge before it's given to you. You have to really believe that K is the answer in your life before you even receive it. Why else would you got to all the trouble? Also, by the time you receive Knowledge, you'll have been given a healthy dose of programming that without Maharaji, the experience of Knowledge will be elusive to you. Only by keeping in touch and benefitting from M's 'clarity' will the experience of Knowledge manifest. My advice to you, Denise, is to stick around, keep posting, and reflect honestly on where you've been with Maharaji. You might be surprised at the amount of brainwashing you've been through as Maharaji's 'student'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 18:50:00 (EST)
From: Robert Email: None To: Denise Subject: Denise Denise! Message: Hi Denise, There's no wonder that the relentless spewage you've been hearing here is making you feel strange or slightly seasick. Bromo-Seltzer is heavily advised while reading this 'forum.' Some of these people are so blinded by the hatred they've built up for their mythical bogeyman that they're unable to see straight and so pounce, as if in a pack, on anyone who wanders in here and has the audacity to say what a beautiful dimension has been added to their lives through Maharaji's teaching. If they met Maharaji, they wouldn't even vaguely recognise him as the guy, who has for them, become the repository of every cumulative frustration in their lives. You wrote, 'So what's wrong with his page? Is it the part about saying he didn't want to be a leader? All I can say is my thought about this is you have to look at the whole picture--he was a young foreign boy who only knew of things a certain way and brought them to this country that way under the guidance of family, mahatmas, etc. When he got older and wiser, he got rid of all the Indian trappings and now you've got somethings much simpler.' Exactly. He's never been 'ordinary.' He's never pretended to be ordinary. He's been making Knowledge available to people since he was 8 years old and along the way he's shed as many cultural, religious and regional trappings as he could identify. And he's never wanted to be a figurehead, that's true. He always shook things up when they headed that way and tried to head off this being anything but a living guy (you think the title matters? He doesn't) teaching people who wanted to learn from him. Think about all of the shouting here about the ashram. Maharaji closed them 17 or 18 years ago because he felt they no longer were serving any useful purpose and were too tied into the 'Indian' trip. They were also becoming an excuse for people to avoid many things. If Maharaji really had wanted a religion, he never would have closed them. Some people here seem to be still standing outside the door, banging and yelling as if to a lover who jilted them. They select quotes from when he was 13 and frantically go 'See!..See!..Gotcha!'...again, as if reading from an old love letter statements that no longer apply to them. 'But you said you loved me, Barbara!'....'Yes Danny, but that was 1972 and if you want to groove with me now, you have to see me where I am and not where you thought I was.' Most importantly Denise, judge M by what you feel when you see him or are around him, as you would anyone. Judge K by what you feel when you practice it. All the high-octane gossip (much of it invented, by the way) and nasty carping on this site doesn't change the fact that for every person pouncing on you here (and there's really not that many, they're just LOUD) there are many, many more who actually thrive with K & M. All kinds of people. Rich Italian clothing designers and poor African women with baskets on their heads. Old Nepalese sadhu-types and punky, young Germans who love Techno. No cultural barriers. No religious barriers. No financial barriers. No lifestyle barriers. Who else has achieved that? Noone who's bellyaching here. Noone's gonna go anywhere to hear Jean-Michel speak, let alone be put into an ecstatic state by being around him. And what were any of us teaching people when we were 9 years old? Who could pee the farthest?(not to exclude the ladies) Is that still the nature of the 'forum' teachings? Bring your Bromo-Seltzer and trust your heart Denise, not where someone you'll never meet's life went weird 5 or 20 years ago. have fun, Robert Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 19:11:10 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Robert Subject: Denise Denise! Message: I've listened to M's inane drivel fairly recently. What's the big deal? The guy has led his cult for years and has managed to hide his past as well as hone his presentation for the present. He's nothing more than salesman peddling some recycled med techniques. The rest of it is in your head. Hell, that TV evangelist Benny Hinn has people jumping up and down and passing out. The people in his audience get 'blissed out'' too. It's a cult pal, but you wouldn't recognize that because YOU ARE IN A CULT. So Robert, when did you get K and what has it done for you? Come on, let's hear so testimony from you, instead of your blather about this wonderful egalitarian world of K. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 20:04:43 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Robert Subject: Denise Denise! Message: He always shook things up when they headed that way and tried to head off this being anything but a living guy (you think the title matters? He doesn't) teaching people who wanted to learn from him. Robert, Maybe one day Maharaji will REALLY come clean and admit that he's just a con man who hijacked some meditation techniques that really weren't so special and neither was he. But I doubt it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 01:32:04 (EST)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Robert Subject: Denise Denise! Message: 'There's no wonder that the relentless spewage you've been hearing here is making you feel strange or slightly seasick.' Yes it is quite a shock to realize you may have been duped. 'Some of these people are so blinded by the hatred they've built up for their mythical bogeyman that they're unable to see straight and so pounce, as if in a pack, on anyone who wanders in here and has the audacity to say what a beautiful dimension has been added to their lives through Maharaji's teaching.' The 'exs' have been there and question what the association of their experience with 'M' and 'his teaching(which noone has said what it is yet)'. There is no teaching except 'kiss my feet'. 'If they met Maharaji, they wouldn't even vaguely recognise him as the guy, who has for them, become the repository of every cumulative frustration in their lives.' Now you are really flattering 'M'. ',,,,,,Is it the part about saying he didn't want to be a leader?' Please read the Peace Bomb satsang, given by The Perfecr Master. Remember 'Satsang comes through' from the most supreme spirit, so the age doesn't matter(14 tears is 14 years). In that satsang he specifically says that he wants to lead everyone but the world won't let him. ' All I can say is my thought about this is you have to look at the whole picture--he was a young foreign boy who only knew of things a certain way and brought them to this country that way under the guidance of family, mahatmas, etc. When he got older and wiser, he got rid of all the Indian trappings and now you've got somethings much simpler.' ' If this is true, why has he not said these things himself and corrected the misconceptions he has given to people, people who had so much trust. '...And he's never wanted to be a figurehead, that's true. ' Hahahahahahahahahahahaha! Are you serious? 'Meditation begings in the FORM of the master. The Lord is the SUPERIOR POWER IN PERSON.' Prempal's additions to arti. 'He always shook things up when they headed that way and tried to head off this being anything but a living guy (you think the title matters? He doesn't) teaching people who wanted to learn from him. ' Remember the thing about the oak tree amonsgt the weeds? 'Think about all of the shouting here about the ashram. Maharaji closed them 17 or 18 years ago because he felt they no longer were serving any useful purpose and were too tied into the 'Indian' trip.' Well, I would like to hear from him about that. At any rate it would have been a tad polite of him to inform the ashram-residents of his decision. You knbow the one about doing a u-turn. Many of them ended up in the streets with nothing. Many just ended their own lives. You obvoiusly don't understand the term 'to give your all'. He has abused his followers at the deepest level. You(Robert) remind me of a holocaust denier. 'Bring your Bromo-Seltzer and trust your heart Denise, not where someone you'll never meet's life went weird 5 or 20 years ago.' If premies knew how to listten to their 'hearts' they would be 1000000 miles from prempal. They would know he was a con. It took me quite a few years to admit the truth to myself. Your cognitive dissonence is the same as that of any 'fundamentalist' group. You think you own truth or god and miss the real experience of life, brotherhood and unity. If prempal didn't have such a big ego I really believe he could have had a positive effect on the world.....but he wanted it all for himself. Now all his followers are pissing in the wind. Maybe a drip will blow back in your face and you'll begin to wake up. Jethro Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 10:52:07 (EST)
From: been there Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: hellish arcade game Message: love this phrase Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 13:10:50 (EST)
From: lurking pwk Email: None To: Denise Subject: All Up to You Message: Denise, you are smart enough to see through the blindness of many people with knowledge. So, you are probably smart enough to see through the bitterness of so many of the people here. Odds are pretty good you don't want to end up like ANY of them, from either side. My only advice to you is to continue to get in touch with what YOU think, and what YOU feel. Don't believe anybody, and take one step at a time. Accept what feels right. Reject what feels peculiar. Some of us aging hippies HAVE gotten our lives together, and do not believe that having and practicing knowledge is an excuse for avoiding any obligations we have in our lives. And most of us look back at the 70's and early 80's as the folly of youth surrounding a core, very beautiful experience. The folks in this forum can rant all they want - that is the truth (at least for me). So....if it looks like a duck, and it walks like a duck, its probably a duck.....a bitter duck, a delusional duck, a vapid duck...whatever. I wish you the best of luck on your journey...wherever it may take you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 13:39:10 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: lurking pwk Subject: All Up to You Message: Your post is foolishness. Those who gave endlessly to Maharaji and received nothing have reason to be bitter. You're right that Denise wouldn't want to end up like that: Lied to and deceived. 'Accepting what feels right and rejecting what feels peculiar' can be a recipe for disaster. Being overly simplistic is encouraged by Maharaji, so it isn't surprising you say that. The point is, if you're really honest with yourself, you'll see he's a con artist. You can be cavalier about being ripped off by Maharaji yourself, but it isn't your place to dismiss others who care about what they lost. Maharaji said he was God and could deliver us from our suffering. We gave him his due but then found out he lied. Now we're giving him his due again. It's all very fair. Yes, a duck who looks like a sucker, probably is. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 14:02:56 (EST)
From: Denise Email: None To: lurking pwk Subject: All Up to You Message: Please let me hear more from you! I need to hear all sides of this and don't feel comfortable discussing it in my local community. I'll try to protect you from the mean awful bullies here, but no promises because they're pretty shrewd! I personally think it may get everyone thinking to have at least some active premies on this site. I'm all for open-mindedness. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 14:30:25 (EST)
From: Way Email: None To: lurking pwk Subject: All Up to You Message: Dear Lurking Pwik: Just as you consider the 70's and early 80's the folly of youth, you probably will one day be looking back at the 90's as the folly of middle age. Remember those 'reins of your life' that you totally surrended to your living master? Well, they are still out there dangling somewhere waiting for you to pick them back up. All of them. Grow up and take responsibility for your own life before you're an old man. And listen to your own satsang - yes, it is all up to you! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 15:27:09 (EST)
From: Orlando Email: None To: Denise Subject: still practicing Message: I have received knowledge 25.5 years ago. it has been and still is a very beautiful experience. I also love the Master who gave me this Knowledge. Maybe there are a 1000 like him and maybe there are 1000 'techniques' to be learned aywhere. i don't know, and i don't really care. for me i just needed to meet ONE such person, and it happenned to be him who gave me this precious gift. This is why he will always be special to me. For this, i will always be gratefull. i don't really care what he does in his private life, it is none of my business. he does not care what i do in my private life, it is none of his business. this is a common agreement and i like it this way. i am in love and i do not wish to rationalize it or explain it. it feels incredibly great and that is all. This is the first time i post a 'feeling' post on this site. i know that this is not the right place to do it . sorry, could not help it. PS: about Maharaji's site: i think it is beautifully done! (i don't want to add gazoline to fire but...this is my opinion) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 18:45:56 (EST)
From: Denise Email: None To: Orlando Subject: still practicing Message: Glad you're still practicing, lots of people who call themselves premies don't any more. Thank you sincerely for the input. I'm not sure about the personal life thing and if I should care or not, but it does sort of hurt me to hear he's not all I thought he was. Maybe I'll eventually just get to the point you've gotten to and simply be thankful for Knowledge and appreciate M for taking the time to pass it along. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 09:12:58 (EST)
From: Orlando Email: None To: Denise Subject: still practicing Message: Denise, all i can add is: listen to your own heart and believe what your own haert tells you. if you do that, you will never be betrayed or hurt, no matter what everyone says. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 19:49:20 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Denise Subject: still practicing Message: Maybe I'll eventually just get to the point you've gotten to and simply be thankful for Knowledge and appreciate M for taking the time to pass it along. Denise, the only reason that M is the one passing it along is because he made us vow that we, ourseves, never would. Have you ever analysed THAT one? Maybe you should. Personally, I can't see what harm I'd do by revealing these techniques, myself. Can you? Why was it so important that I vow I never would? Only the most ridiculous answers come to mind: 1) Only by Maharaji's grace (today, 'clarity') can someone realize this Knowledge. 2) Meditation is only one leg of the stool. It doesn't work without the other two, satsang and service. Today, I think this has been changed. Now, you've got to 'keep in touch'. 3) Maharaji owns these techniques. Only he has the right to reveal them. Anybody else is stealing from him. This one requires some research into Maharaji's lineage. Its very confusing. It looks like a scene out of the movie 'Spartacus'. Remember? 'I'm Spartacus!' 'I'M SPARTACUS!!' 'i'm spartacus'! There's just so many of them all claiming to be the chosen. Who are you going to believe? Even in our own divine family we've got 'two' of the chosen 'one'. I'm sure you've heard of Maharaji's brother, Bal Baghwan(sp) Ji, who used to be one of Maharaji's faithful and then, one day, decided that HE was the perfect master, not Maharaji at all, even though he'd been saying for years that this was so. Today, Bal's got thousands of devotees who swear they're having the same experience that, supposedly, only Maharaji can reveal. Go figure. The only way I would go back to being a premie is by blind devotion, by doing what Maharaji, himself, has commanded, by removing all doubt from my mind. I can't think of one good reason to do that. Denise, I know you enjoy the meditation. Are you concerned that if you leave Maharaji that those good experiences will no longer be available to you? If you are, isn't that a ridiculous notion, that your experiences in meditation are dependent upon being in the good graces of another human being? If that's the way you feel, I suggest you put some of those analytical skills you've developed as a psychotherapist to yourself. I'm sure you'd agree, that having done that, there's no good reason for you to feel that way, especially in the light of the claims of many exes who say they get the same, if not better experience now that they've left Maharaji. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 15:27:48 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: lurking pwk Subject: Time to wake up, lpwk Message: My only advice to you is to continue to get in touch with what YOU think, and what YOU feel. Don't believe anybody, and take one step at a time. (Emphasis mine). You're contradicting yourself. Can't you see? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 15:27:13 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Lord or Liar? STOP IT! Message: JM: Don't you see? Our little lard is saying that 'others' WANTED him to be a figurehead..... 'It's not my fault, the premies made me do it....' Yeah, right! M: You are dodging your responsibility for this nonsense and it's up to YOU to fix it, get it? You can't blame the premies for your satsang.... those are YOUR words coming out of YOUR mouth; the responsibility is ALL YOURS! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 18:44:39 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Mike Subject: NOT anymore? Message: Does this mean that he just 'realized' that others wanted him to be the figurehead, and that he's not anymore? Really? He's none of this anymore? Good news!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 22:25:38 (EST)
From: TD Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Lord or Liar? Statistics shite Message: I am really wondering what the premies think seeing something like this as the frontpage of their beloved knowledge! Ashamed watching their maharaji displaying something like this? I would have been ashamed 3 years ago, honestly. I'm with you JM! And I've just been perusing his stats page which has immediately reminded me of the embarrassment I felt whenever any of his notorious graphs would appear at those participation meetings. Even as a brainwashed premie a year ago, I remember feeling uncomfortable that he would put up such blatantly dodgey and ambiguous statistics, especially as any premie there who had a passing familiarity with stats and graphs must have been thinking the same kind of thing that I was, which was 'Ah, more information/clarity required Prof. Rawat' .... However, I hope he keeps putting up that kind of shite, as it would have to be a major turnoff to any aspirant to read that kind of stuff when they're on their spiritual quest! I imagine they ain't going to take too kindly to a wannabe statistician for a Perfect Master. Ha-ha! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 16:22:07 (EST)
From: A Premie Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Lord or Liar? STOP IT! Message: J-M, get with the program, come on, it's so simple: I can't understand how both ways of putting it are compatible! Well duh, it's because you don't have UNDERSTANDING. When you understand that contradictory things are compatable if Maharaji said them, you have UNDERSTANDING, otherwise you don't have UNDERSTANDING. I don't understand anything of his logic. Duh, again. If you have UNDERSTANDING, then you UNDERSTAND. The proper UNDERSTANDING is that whatever he says is very logical, we are just to much insignificant particles of dust to see that. I don't understand, and I doubt anybody will! Well, I'm repeating myself, but duh, you don't understand because you lack UNDERSTANDING. When you have UNDERSTANDING, you will UNDERSTAND. Got it? And I've been horrified by his website....I am really wondering what the premies think seeing something like this as the frontpage of their beloved knowledge! Ashamed watching their maharaji displaying something like this? I would have been ashamed 3 years ago, honestly. Well, I think it's blissful. You are just so negative and lack understanding so you can't appreciate how beautiful and perfect it really is. And as for the security and the cookies, what do you expect, when the internet is crawling with vicious, violent, immoral, sadistic, angry, confused and psychotic ex-premies? And Maharaji doesn't mean that no one was around to stop him make that webpage. He's saying that no one was around to stop him from having people kiss his feet and from dancing half naked in front of thousands of people numerous times over a period of years. That was all YOUR fault, by the way. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 17:13:18 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: A Premie Subject: Lord or Liar? STOP IT! Message: That was all YOUR fault, by the way. After laughing reading your post, I have to say that you REALLY did hit something for me: I really started to understand the whole situation in 1996, that EV was really messing people's lives, and that I was a part of it. I would not part take in anything I didn't like and was desparately trying to improve the situation. I was slowly realizing that even if I was not myself responsible for anything harmful, the very fact that I was a member of EV's board was making me a responsible anyways, and that there was no way to improve anything, because the whole sytem was rotten. The BM himself wass rotten - still is, and everything around him is rotten and stincking. I resigned on the spot. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 17:29:47 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Lord or Liar? STOP IT! Message: I resigned on the spot. Did anyone say anything to you when you resigned? Did they ask why? Also, what 'board' were you on that you resigned from? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 06:07:48 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: JW Subject: Lord or Liar? STOP IT! Message: I had a few phone conversations with some of my ex-colleagues, and lunch with Marc Levitte who was the president of EV France at that time. I don't know if he still is. I expressed my feelings at that time, basically that the whole thing stinks, and that I didn't want to be a part of it anymore. I was a member of the board of director of EV France . Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 08:44:33 (EST)
From: larkin Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: haiku no. 1 Message: Taxing the breath; usurping love's franchise A protection racket of the heart. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 06:19:38 (EST)
From: Happy Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Knowledge is not Knowledge Message: One thing that really bothers me is the talk about 'Knowledge'. That's exactly how he trapped us, that was the bait (or at least me, I'm talking for myself). In fact, it is only four yoga techniques, three mudras and one pranayama. Goddammit, that's not Knowledge! And they're not his, we should stop calling the techniques 'his'. I haven't had contact with premies for years, and now I learn that they are not called that anymore, no, they are PWK, 'People with Knowledge'. I can just imagine how these PWK walk around with their lobotomized smiles, like they did before. In fact, I think they are IP, 'Ignorant People', and their master, Mr. Ignorant himself, is VIP, 'Very Ignorant Person'. He is also known as II, the 'Incarnation of Ignorance'. And, since he likes bugging his disciples and gluing cookies to his ex-followers, that paranoiac deserves a third title, Agent 000, 'The Man With the Gold Toilet' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 08:55:01 (EST)
From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Happy Subject: Knowledge is not Knowledge Message: I couldn't agree more. So people with so called knowledge are pwiks. Kind of good that. It is pure myth of course, this knowledge thing. It's hyped up to be really something. The terms 'giving or receiving knowledge' add to the myth. Years after I heard an Indian woman talking about four yoga techniques, I now see the nonsense that was put into my head. The term 'knowledge' is misused here. Perhaps if it was changed to 'being told about four old yoga techniques' then it would dispell the myth. I've had a look on the alt.meditation newsgroup a few times and there's loads of non pwiks there who know these techniques. They're pretty standard and are just four of many yoga methods. It's amazing the gall that Maharaji has to claim ownership of them and make a fortune from them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 18:41:23 (EST)
From: HALIP Email: None To: Happy Subject: Knowledge is not Knowledge Message: Haven't you heard, dear Happy : things have EVOLVED ! Geeez, when will you learn ! Out with the old, in with the new, but what's the diff, it is the same bullshit ! Former-Happy-and-living-in-Paris-who-had-to-change-her-code-name- just-because-of-YOU ! (Just kidding, bien sūr !) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 06:51:21 (EST)
From: Happy Email: None To: Halip Subject: Evolved Message: Evolved, yes - from premies to pwiks, from gooroo to prick. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 03:55:47 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Does this sound familiar? Message: It's getting so boring here with Selene observing her birthday and not cranking out additional chapters of the Chronicles of the Red Nighty that I've resorted to lurking on the alt.relgion.scientology newsgroup to look for legal assistance from people who've been attacked through abusive legal processes and actual physical violence as directed by their former cult. E tu, Maharaji? Anyway, below is a sample of something that might sound familiar with a post and a response. But first some a little humor from the Anti-Scientologists: One is an evil organization focused on taking over the world, and the other was started by L. Ron Hubbard. On Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:03:32 GMT, squigz@my-dejanews.com wrote: Post: >Ok ok everyone is entitled to their opinion, but i just wanted to give my view on this newsgroup, and of scientology as a whole. >As a scientologist i know the good that is inherent in the church and the teachings laid out by its founder L Ron Hubbard. There is nothing sinister or evil about Scientology - and i feel that Scientology is greatly misconceived by individuals here on this newsgroup. Response: Scientology has been found to be the single most difficult cult to escape from and the 'teachings' of Hubbard has been soundly debunked as nonsense. Added to that the criminal nature of the cult and one ends up with the profound consideration that the cult is abjectly evil. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 00:01:02 (EST)
From: Miloochie Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Thanks for this site Message: I stumbled upon this site earlier today and have been reading it all day. Thank you to all who have put this together and maintain it. It is also just plain very well produced. I believe some long simmering healing will now begin for me. Thank you. 'Like abused children, ashamed, angered, lost...still in shock.' Miloochie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 03:10:25 (EST)
From: cp Email: None To: Miloochie Subject: Thanks for this site Message: Hi Miloochie I know the feeling....... Its like finding a sunlight patch in a dark wood. Welcome- though I have not been around long myself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 05:09:54 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: Miloochie Subject: Thanks for this site Message: Hi Miloochie, I havn't been around here regularly for some time, and I missed it. I think we all know how you feel. Welcome. regards Richard PS Tell us about yourself, if you want. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 05:31:27 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Richard Subject: Wish you the best! Message: And I hope you've also had a look at the EV-DLM Papers website. Lots of new stuff these days, reg the so-called copyrighted meditation techniques! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 08:38:24 (EST)
From: Happy Email: None To: Miloochie Subject: welcome Message: Miloochie, I know exactly your feeling. I also stumbled upon this site, not too long ago, and simply could not stop reading. Here were all those things that I wasn't able to share with anyone when I left M. It's very refreshing and therapeutic. A very good site, and those who keep it going deserve our greatest appreciation. A really wonderful work, probably saving many lives. To them we are truly GRATEFUL! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 15:54:55 (EST)
From: Nimrod Email: None To: Miloochie Subject: Thanks for this site Message: Hi Miloochie! I'm glad you found us. It's been around three months for myself since I found this site and forum. Like yourself, I had already broken free from m and his cult(or at least I had begun the Process of breaking free) and when I did find this site and forum, I felt very much the same as yourself...as you put it... I believe some long simmering healing will now begin for me. I also relate strongly to your statement 'Like abused children, ashamed, angered, lost...still in shock I'm glad you're here, Miloochie.And all the best to you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 18:30:45 (EST)
From: HALIP Email: None To: Miloochie Subject: Thanks for this site Message: Yes, welcome aboard. Most informative, isnt'it? And most important, a great place to express yourself -- something most frowned upon in any EV events. Refreshing, isn't it. Keep reading on, there's quite a bit to discover and happy to see you on this forum ! Hope to see you soon Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 18:47:36 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: HALIP Subject: HALIP you're drunk! Message: Don't you realize it? That red wine was good! (We just had dinner together, that's for the lurkers) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 22:29:59 (EST)
From: Nil Email: None To: Nimrod Subject: Thanks for this site Message: Nimrod why did you start following M in the first place and when? And if you're so bent out of shape now about having followed him, what kept you around so long? And if you say it was because he controlled your mind, I'll say you must have been looking for someone to diaper you. If you say you didn't enjoy being involved or grow as an individual, I'll say you're a fucking liar. And if you say it was for any other reason besides wanting to experience peace within yourself, I'll say 'No wonder you left'. BTW as per your proposal in the archive, to-date I've never let anyone fuck me up the ass... sounds like you've made a habit of it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 00:01:05 (EST)
From: gerry Email: None To: Nil Subject: Thanks for this site Message: Nil, I got K because I thought it was a sure fire way to 'realize god.' Not some limp dick feeling of 'peace.' I could get that smoking a joint. What's your point? Of course everyone enjoys growing as an individual. The gooroo trip was, and I contend, is stifling to growth. Why are you still a premie? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 19:30:49 (EST)
From: Nil Email: None To: gerry Subject: Thanks for this site Message: Maharaji has always said he is here to show you the peace that can be found within you. If you think that's a small thing or just 'some limp dick feeling of peace', then you clearly haven't had much experience going there. The magnitude of the peace at one's core is beyond words. Of course, knowing how long a committment you gave to Knowledge I understand why it was so 'limp dick' for you... are you an impatient man? As for growth, I'm a living example of someone who has grown immeasurably since receiving Knowledge. So tell me, why do you reject my testimony in your model of the universe, and only accept those that jive with your own perception of truth? That is myopic gerry! Not to mention it doesn't qualify you as a candidate for the Critical Thinker of the Year Award. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 17:39:59 (EST)
From: Voice of Israel Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Thanks for your shite, Nil Message: OY gevallt! And this Nil shmendrick thinks he's intelligent? He's itelligent like Maharaji is intelligent. And how is Maharaji intelligent? I'll tell you. The wheel is spinning....BUT THE HAMPSTER IS DEAD Baruch Hashem! Shabbat Shalom!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 22:23:50 (EST)
From: Gail Email: None To: Miloochie Subject: Thanks for this site Message: Hi: Glad to meet you. This is a great place for getting rid of our mindless lives isn't it. We sure did acquire a lot of concepts for consider that the idea was to rid ourselves of thme. You've hit the nail on the head regsrding the healing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 21:40:25 (EST)
From: red heart Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Cookies Message: He can leave Cookies in my computer anytime. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 22:57:30 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com To: red heart Subject: Cookies Message: It looks like that's the closest you'll ever get to him again - looking at his cookies. I wonder if you were around in the days when it was cool to be desperate for darshan? I remember some initiators saying that they just could not go on without darshan. I would feel very sorry for a premie who was in that state now. They have no chance of seeing him in the flesh for God knows how long. WHy does Maharaji keep himself so very distant from his followers? He doesn't have to, you know. He could do a program every weekend. He could stroll into a hall somewhere near to where ever he is and just make an appearance and say hi and give a talk. Why doesn't he do that? Because he thinks he's a cut above the rest. He thinks he's superior and such things would be beneath him. Any guru worth his salt would regularly meet with his followers on an easy basis. But then Maharaji wants to be distant and persue his own agenda. He's not interested in his devotees. They are beneath him. He's got more important things to do than meet his devotees all the time. One day, this fact will hit home to some premies. The trouble is, premies are conditioned into thinking that Maharaji has to remain this distant person. It takes a major turn around before you realise that it's not normal and it's not nice to have such a cold and distant guru. I wonder if you have even an inkling of what I'm talking about here. If I was a guru then I'd want to meet my devotees and shake their hands more than once in a blue moon. So why is Maharaji so unaproachable? Perhaps some day, you'll see what we're getting at here. In the meantime, stay cool and if you love those who need it, well what could be better? Hey sister, I used to long to rest my head at the feet of the Lord and give him my heart, you know! We're not ignorant of devotion here, we've all felt it. But sadly, we realised that our devotion was misplaced. I still want to stand before the Lord of Love and tell him how much I appreciate love and want to know more of it's magnificence. I see you, standing on the other side of the road to me but there's little differnce because we're both walking the same way. Take a look around, everybody else is walking the same way too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 23:27:25 (EST)
From: red heart Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Cookies Message: He's not cold and distant. He has a lot more ground that he covers than any other Living Master I have ever heard of, and has challenges that no Living Master had before him. And the amazing thing is, if I am there, really there, he is there too. Whether it is 10,000 miles away, 50 yards away, or much closer. Yes, I have spoken to him in person more than a couple of times, and I can say with all sincerity that it really depended on where I was at at the time, what I experienced. And that's true whether I am in his physical presence or not. If what he gave me only worked for me when I saw him in person, it wouldn't be good enough -- because I need more than that. Thank goodness what he has given me is more than that. It's when I really work on myself and my own faults, and when I really make sincere efforts to understand and apply what he has taught me, that I can even fathom understanding him. If I try to understand him when I am being aloof myself, only then can I see coldness; when I am feeling the real warmth and openness of real love and devotion, then that is what I see in him. He really is a mirror. And sometimes that's very confronting and very scary. But we can all relax, because the guy holding up the mirror really is loving and kind and magnificent. Maharaji has given me something I was and am in desperate need of: the experience of feeling complete and full of joy, inside of ME. I couldn't stand this world without him and the help he has given me and continues to give me. And I will see him again in person, and again, as long as he and I both live. The love he has unveiled for me to experience is not hindered by the fact that there may one day be millions of others wanting to see him too. This love has its own kind of transcendence. The first quote I ever saw of Maharaji was, 'Give me your love and I will give you peace.' The sentence didn't make sense to me then, but it attracted me anyhow. But you know what? It makes sense now. That is exactly how it works. I give him my love and he gives me peace. Amazing. One of those things only the inner heart can understand. One of those things only the open and humble heart can feel. Sometimes the hardest thing for me: forgiving myself. I used to imagine that he would be angry with me. But he's been teaching me, and I've been learning: I only need to forgive myself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 00:43:00 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: red heart Subject: red heart Message: Yes Red Heart, it does depend on 'where I was at at the time, what I experienced.' You may spend your life as you see to do it. We have our reasons of course for wanting to say what we do. I do have reason to believe that when you felt 'very confronting and really scary.' from being with him, that maybe it was not a mirror of YOU. But if you will allow his own words to reach your ears and not block them out because you have him enshrined in one certain way in your heart. Yes, your innocent sincere reach for god is genuine. But perhaps the lord you love is not limited to one man and his actions and views. Rather than destroy what you have built up, enlarge it so that you can have a greater understanding of this life and the nature of men and the ways of those from the eastern thinking that think someone can act as god for others to worship and treat as the lord. Truly, there is no one that has played the very typical role of guru in the west like prem pal rawat. So many people choose to have a devotion to god privately in many different religions and those that choose to really concentrate on worship in a personal sincere way are able to accomplish that no matter what religion they were exposed to. The real reason that prem rawat could no longer play god for me was that he is so limited that I was constrained and stifled by looking to him as god in person. He plays the role for those that are looking to him for it but since it is not real, those like you are running into the wall that keeps your belief from actually taking place in reality and you have to make excuses that it is YOUR fault. YOUR fault. The mirror. YOU are the one that couldnt make it real- not him you say. Jesus said 'as you believe, so it will be done unto you' Now maybe he is saying something other than what I will say, but, guru's are playing the hindu devised role of 'I'll be god, you be devotee' and tell me the truth, you and I both know that in your life and mine, we had to make excuses for why it doesn't all add up. WE played by the rules and believed, prem rawat goes through stages where he will say sentences that keep you from being able to grow beyond him, because he keeps you under him because HE is the master of life. You have to try and not destroy your self, but try and reach beyond your bound up sincerity and allow yourself to grow and recognise what you have in fact been avoiding and covering up because it threatens to undermine your good view of life if you dont do your growing carefully. You have to allow yourself to accept all facts and know you dont have to maintain anything false because there is a god and it is not threatened by your belief structure and it's need to change. Your mind and views can totally adjust and the one that cares for you will be shown to be completely independent of prem rawat's story and words and deeds. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 01:11:15 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: bill Subject: red heart Message: Really red heart, I wish you well. It was a very rough time I had trying to accept what was true without being broken in the process. But I was surprised by the way life not only went on, but improved vastly and I was able to stand like a man instead of a person who was designed to be dependent on a guru that was playing god. Can I quote a book on Narcissists. This book is referring only to narcissism and not to whatever field or environment it is cropping up in. The book 'Narcissism-Denial of the true self' states: 'What are the qualities highlighted by these people? A simple listing includes: 1) I can do anything (omnipotence) 2) I am visible everywhere (omnipresence) 3) I know everything (omnicience) 4) I am to be worshiped -the book continues- These are of course, attributes of a god. On some deep level, narcissists and especially psycopathetic personalities, see themselves as little gods. Too often, unfortunately, thier followers look to them in that light too' right out of the book. here is more from the book: 'For narcissists, control serves the same function as power, it protects them from possible humiliation. First, they control themselves by denying those feelings that might make them vulnerable. But they also have to control situations in which they find themselves, they have to make sure that there is no possibility that some other person will have power over them. Power and control together work to protect the individual from feeling vulnerable, from feeling powerless to prevent a possible humiliation. He denies his feeling, tries to project an image of invulnerability, and superiority, and strives for power and domination of others.' Clearly, I think we have a diagnosis. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 09:18:55 (EST)
From: red heart Email: None To: bill Subject: bill Message: I do not agree at all. And I think it is his habit of being so un-controlling that drives you nuts. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 18:15:42 (EST)
From: bb Email: None To: red heart Subject: R H Message: Care to explain 'he is so uncontrolling'? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 18:25:05 (EST)
From: HALIP Email: None To: red heart Subject: un-controlling Message: Dear Red, I do respect your experience with M, whatever it is and for whatever reasons . However, there is ONE thing M is not, and that is 'uncontrolling'. The man is every bit the controller... We all know love is blind, and we all tend to want to protect those we love and in whom we have invested our time, efforts and emotions but do yourself a favor : take off the blindfold and start to read what's been written here. Maybe you'll have to revise some of your ideas about M and more importantly, about your own worth.... and maybe you'll quit blaming yourself about'your faults'... Guilt feelings (I never do enough, I'm so bad, he's so wonderful, so I'll do more, but it's not enought etc... ) will only bring you misery and will pull you further away from the one person who counts truly : yourself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 13:02:48 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: bill Subject: Thank you Bill (nt) Message: jkdhpgjdp Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 01:15:55 (EST)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: red heart Subject: Magical thinking Message: Red, Do you have no idea how familiar these 'expressions' sound to everybody here? - or that we have all used pretty well all of them in our time? - or their power to incite vomit-inducing nausea when we read them today? And that there is now a web-site in existence to collect them, edit them, polish them up, rewrite them where necessary and display them in perpetuity, in all their gushing glory? The trouble is, Red, this an uncensored discussion forum for ex-premies. As Brian once put it, ex-premies post here by right, while premies are here by privilege. So by all means join in, but you know what to expect. Unlike enjoyinglife.org, not only will your words not be censored, they will inevitably be subject to critical scrutiny. Hey - call us a 'mirror' if you like... ...And the amazing thing is, if I am there, really there, he is there too. Whether it is 10,000 miles away, 50 yards away, or much closer. This is magical thinking, Red. Just nonsense. Do you mean 'Whenever I feel something nice inside, I imagine that the Hamster has something to do with it? In fact the Hamster really is right there with me!' ...Yes, I have spoken to him in person more than a couple of times, and I can say with all sincerity that it really depended on where I was at at the time, what I experienced. Which seems to suggest, that, er, what you were feeling at the time was no more than what you were feeling at the time. You can take the Hamster right out of this equation and get the same answer. ...It's when I really work on myself and my own faults, and when I really make sincere efforts to understand and apply what he has taught me, that I can even fathom understanding him. If I try to understand him when I am being aloof myself, only then can I see coldness; when I am feeling the real warmth and openness of real love and devotion, then that is what I see in him. Red. You are projecting. Learn the word. Think about its possible implications. ...He really is a mirror. And sometimes that's very confronting and very scary. But we can all relax, because the guy holding up the mirror really is loving and kind and magnificent. Yeah, yeah - the mirror. So many premies have spoken recently about the 'mirror', I can only imagine the Hamster must have mentioned it in satsang somewhere. Am I right? Smash the mirror, Red. The seven years bad luck is just superstition. ...The love he has unveiled for me to experience is not hindered by the fact that there may one day be millions of others wanting to see him too. This love has its own kind of transcendence. There will never be 'millions of others wanting to see him too', and you know it. ...Sometimes the hardest thing for me: forgiving myself. I used to imagine that he would be angry with me. But he's been teaching me, and I've been learning: I only need to forgive myself. Jeez, Red. He taught you that, did he? This is a pathetic state of affairs. Couple this last sentence with that phrase you used earlier: I couldn't stand this world without him and can't you see where he's got you? He's put one king-sized cookie in your brain that prevents you seeing the world without attributing some role for His Lardship in it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 12:01:59 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Nice response, Nigel Message: You should respond to these premies more often, Nigel. As somebody who's recently taken an interest in critical thinking, its good to see how its done. And who knows? Some of it might even be making an impression on the premies. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 12:34:37 (EST)
From: Roger Drek Email: None To: Nigel Subject: post added Drek's Best Of Message: It's me again, Roger Drek. And I'm stealing this post by Nigel to add to a new topic at Roger's House of Drek, The Best Of Forum III. Readers, please flag other posts that you think belong in the realm of prominent posterity. To make this really exciting Roger's House of Drek will periodically allow voting for the VERY Best of Forum III and the author of the post will be awarded the opportunity to do service at the Maharaji Residence of their choice. (Prizes provided in cooperation with your local EV organization and the Lord of the Universe.) for way off topic stuff Including the Chronicles of the Red Nighty Return to Index -:- Top of Index |