Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 39

From: Feb 19, 1999

To: Mar 1, 1999

Page: 2 Of: 5



JW -:- Standing Up For Premies -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 14:26:32 (EST)
__Rick -:- Standing Up For Premies -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 15:07:07 (EST)
__John -:- Traitor! -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 15:10:52 (EST)
____JW -:- Traitor! -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 15:29:31 (EST)
______Helen -:- Traitor! -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 16:57:24 (EST)
________JW -:- Okay, I Admit It -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 17:24:51 (EST)
____Garth -:- Traitor! -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 15:49:15 (EST)
______Helen -:- Traitor! -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 16:28:11 (EST)
______John -:- Confession time -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 16:37:46 (EST)
________JW -:- Confession time -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 16:47:30 (EST)
__________nigel -:- Stupidity, Intelligence,Wisdom -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 17:59:12 (EST)
____________JW -:- Stupidity, Intelligence,Wisdom -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 23:40:50 (EST)
____________Lezley -:- Stupidity, Intelligence,Wisdom -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 11:50:17 (EST)
______________JW -:- Stupidity, Intelligence,Wisdom -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 14:52:08 (EST)
______________Jim -:- Yeah, it's our personalities -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 21:20:02 (EST)
______________Zac the Gypsy -:- Ex-Premie mind reader -:- Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 20:17:45 (EST)
__________Zac -:- Premie mindset -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 18:11:21 (EST)
____________JW -:- Premie mindset -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 23:50:48 (EST)

Web Watcher -:- Where are they now? -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 12:54:19 (EST)
__nigel -:- A suggestion... -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 16:32:48 (EST)
____Web Watcher -:- A suggestion... -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 21:52:54 (EST)
______Brian -:- A suggestion... -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 22:13:42 (EST)

Rick -:- Oh How It Angers The Premies -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 12:35:54 (EST)
__Garth -:- Oh How It Angers The Premies -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 13:13:48 (EST)
__JW -:- Oh How It Angers The Premies -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 13:43:04 (EST)
____Zac -:- Oh How It Angers The Premies -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 18:55:02 (EST)
______Jim -:- Welcome to hell, Zac -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 20:47:58 (EST)
________Zac -:- Welcome to hell, Zac -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 21:36:28 (EST)
______Selene -:- Oh How It Angers The Premies -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 21:52:33 (EST)
__Nil -:- Oh How It Angers The Premies -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 03:03:30 (EST)
____Nimrod -:- Oh How a putz can deceive -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 03:34:10 (EST)
______Selene -:- Oh How a putz can deceive -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 14:35:39 (EST)
________nimrod -:- Oh How a putz can deceive -:- Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 00:12:55 (EST)
__________Selene -:- Oh How a putz can deceive -:- Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 12:05:48 (EST)
____Rick -:- Oh How It Angers The Premies -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 11:17:00 (EST)

The Undoubting Mind -:- The Problem with this site -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 07:51:01 (EST)
__Brian -:- The Problem with satire -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 08:33:59 (EST)
____Zac -:- The Problem with satire -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 09:15:49 (EST)
______John -:- I think it's great! (nt) -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 10:06:40 (EST)
______Brian -:- perceived threats -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 10:09:00 (EST)
________g's mom -:- support for your view -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 10:45:43 (EST)
__________Gail -:- support for your view -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 21:42:58 (EST)
______Katie -:- satire and anger vs threats -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 13:06:49 (EST)
________Runamok -:- forum policy question -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 13:44:18 (EST)
__________Katie -:- forum policy question -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 14:14:47 (EST)
____________Minnesota Housewife -:- hey there, Katie -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 14:34:20 (EST)
______________Orlando -:- is this a threat? -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 14:57:02 (EST)
________________Katie -:- is this a threat? -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 15:04:10 (EST)
__________________Katie -:- Threat? -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 20:53:00 (EST)
____________________Orlando -:- thanks Katie and sorry Jim -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 22:11:31 (EST)
______________Fran From Fargo -:- Now You See Here -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 14:57:25 (EST)
________________Minnesota Housewife -:- Now You See Here -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 15:29:23 (EST)
________________J.Jahnsen -:- To my new sweetie -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 15:32:36 (EST)
__________________Minnesota Housewife -:- To my new sweetie -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 15:39:03 (EST)
____________________J.Jahnsen -:- To my new sweetie -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 15:53:58 (EST)
______________________Minnesota Housewife -:- To my new sweetie -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 16:17:13 (EST)
________________________Zac -:- If Maharaji threatens me? -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 18:28:00 (EST)
__________________________Helen -:- If Maharaji threatens me? -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 22:53:27 (EST)
____________________________Zac -:- That's the beauty of the shram -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 23:29:31 (EST)
______________________________Zac -:- That's the beauty of the shram -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 23:33:42 (EST)
________________________________Helen -:- Didn't it hurt when he took -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 23:39:16 (EST)
__________________________________Zac -:- Didn't it hurt when he took -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 23:50:11 (EST)
____________________________________JW -:- Didn't it hurt when he took -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 00:14:12 (EST)
______________________________________Zac -:- Didn't it hurt when he took -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 08:04:44 (EST)
________________________________________JW -:- Didn't it hurt when he took -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 13:26:28 (EST)
__________________________________________Zac -:- Didn't it hurt til I hit the -:- Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 20:46:15 (EST)
____________________________________Helen -:- Strapped down, strapped on -:- Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 00:08:44 (EST)
______________________________________Runamok -:- Strapped down, strapped on -:- Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 00:49:00 (EST)
__________________________________Jethro -:- Helen -read -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 00:29:12 (EST)
____________________________________Helen -:- Jethro-read -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 16:54:17 (EST)
__________________________________Nimrod -:- Didn't it hurt when he took -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 01:51:47 (EST)
____________________________________John -:- your nimble rod -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 09:05:34 (EST)
______________________________________Nimrod -:- your nimble rod -:- Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 01:36:21 (EST)

Us -:- You -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 06:25:38 (EST)
__Trio -:- You & Happy -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 07:03:09 (EST)
____Runamok -:- you too -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 07:42:04 (EST)
______Us -:- Runamok's sob story -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 07:45:54 (EST)
__Brian -:- Congratulations -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 08:54:50 (EST)
____Roger C. Drek -:- *** Best of the Forum *** -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 12:57:38 (EST)
______Brian -:- *** Best of the Forum *** -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 22:08:43 (EST)
____Us -:- Congratulations Brian -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 07:16:04 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- You -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 09:52:49 (EST)
__JW -:- You -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 10:25:48 (EST)
____g's mom -:- stop! no don't stop!!! -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 10:50:42 (EST)
______Helen -:- stop! no don't stop!!! -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 12:28:21 (EST)
______JW -:- stop! no don't stop!!! -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 00:33:41 (EST)
____nigel -:- You on a roll, Joe? -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 12:30:38 (EST)
______JW -:- Thanks -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 00:35:35 (EST)
____Roger 'Ice Cream' Drek -:- *** Best of the Forum *** -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 13:16:03 (EST)

John caldwell -:- Garth -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 02:02:32 (EST)
__bog -:- Garth -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 06:49:21 (EST)

John Caldwell -:- Response to your response -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 01:59:49 (EST)
__Max -:- Response to your response -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 02:12:56 (EST)
____bog -:- bog to your response -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 07:25:23 (EST)
______Jerry -:- LOL! -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 12:18:55 (EST)
__Garth -:- Response to your response -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 10:11:20 (EST)
____Helen -:- Response to your response -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 12:56:12 (EST)
____John Caldwell -:- Garth and Helen -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 16:25:19 (EST)
______Helen -:- Garth and Helen -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 16:50:34 (EST)

Scott T. -:- Rumi... not -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 00:28:17 (EST)
__Max -:- Rumi... not -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 01:39:35 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Rumi... not -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 01:44:53 (EST)
______Max -:- Rumi... not -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 01:55:16 (EST)
______Max -:- Rumi... not -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 02:03:12 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Rumi... not -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 09:23:07 (EST)
__Passing thru -:- Brilliant Scott -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 07:42:47 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Brilliant Scott -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 09:09:14 (EST)
__Helen -:- Great poem! Love it! (nt) -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 12:39:18 (EST)

Nil -:- Doubt (from a previous thread) -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 20:24:02 (EST)
__Rick -:- Doubt (from a previous thread) -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 20:37:26 (EST)
____Nil -:- Doubt (from a previous thread) -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 21:24:54 (EST)
______Zac -:- talk to me Nil -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 22:25:02 (EST)
________Nil -:- talk to me Nil -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 02:10:10 (EST)
__________Zac -:- talk to me Nil -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 10:22:03 (EST)
______Rick -:- Doubt (from a previous thread) -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 01:17:51 (EST)
________Nil -:- Doubt (from a previous thread) -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 02:05:17 (EST)
__________Rick -:- Doubt (from a previous thread) -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 12:27:43 (EST)
__Jim -:- Fuck you, Nil -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 20:46:23 (EST)
____CD -:- thinking and doubt -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 23:00:24 (EST)
______bill -:- CD-einstien schmienstien -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 08:53:06 (EST)
____BOG -:- Fuck you, Nil -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 07:37:01 (EST)
____Nil -:- Fuck you too Jim! -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 18:55:58 (EST)
______Zac -:- Hey Nil was M a leader? -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 20:41:16 (EST)
__JW -:- Doubt (from a previous thread) -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 20:52:48 (EST)
____Rick -:- Doubt (from a previous thread) -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 20:57:31 (EST)
____Nil -:- Stupid, really stupid -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 22:00:06 (EST)
______JW -:- You Are Disgusting -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 00:23:37 (EST)
________Nil -:- I couldn't give a shit -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 02:34:29 (EST)
__________JW -:- Bye Nil -- Have a Great Life -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 12:53:04 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Wrong, Joe (Right, Nil!) -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 18:58:09 (EST)
______________JW -:- And Who Asked You? -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 19:16:04 (EST)
________________Jim -:- Gerry! Nil! Mel! Somebody! -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 20:47:07 (EST)
__________________Gerry -:- Gerry! Nil! Mel! Somebody! -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 23:03:42 (EST)
______________JHB -:- Wrong, Joe (Right, Nil!) -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 19:36:32 (EST)
________________Jethro -:- To JHB (OT)(personal) -:- Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 02:21:25 (EST)
__________________JHB -:- To JHB (OT)(personal) -:- Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 04:41:08 (EST)
________________JW -:- Ethnicity? -:- Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 19:23:18 (EST)
____________Nil -:- Bye Nil -- Have a Great Life -:- Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 20:55:33 (EST)
______Nimrod -:- CONSEQUENCES, NIL -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 00:42:53 (EST)
________Nil -:- CONSEQUENCES, NIL -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 02:47:59 (EST)
__________Nimrod -:- CONSEQUENCES, NIL -:- Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 00:48:30 (EST)
________Miloochie -:- CONSEQUENCES, NIL -:- Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 02:53:33 (EST)
__JHB -:- Doubt (from a previous thread) -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 21:12:14 (EST)
__Zac -:- Come on, Nil, Jesus Christ -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 21:45:35 (EST)
__Gail -:- Doubt (from a previous thread) -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 22:31:57 (EST)
____Helen -:- Doubt (from a previous thread) -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 13:18:26 (EST)
____Nil -:- Doubt (from a previous thread) -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 22:09:04 (EST)


Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 14:26:32 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Standing Up For Premies
Message:
Maybe this is more wishful thinking than anything else, but I wanted to emphasize that there are people who still consider themselves premies who don't say a lot of the ignorant stuff we hear from premies on this forum. In fact, I have talked to a couple of premies who I have known, off and on, for many years. They have told me, under condition of anonymity, some things about what they feel, and following are my impressions of what they said:

1. They are very embarrassed by the Enjoyinglife.org website, as they consider it trite and inane, and they would never, in a million years, ever post anything there, especially because they have to use their own names, and they don't want to be associated with it. They fankly wish it would just go away. [This might be quite widespread, as I notice only about 20 premies in the entire USA have posted 'lives' entries on that website in the months it has been on-line.]

2. They like knowledge and they have a lot of what appears to me to be nostalgic fondness and loyalty to Maharaji. They do not, however, have any idea why he has avoided coming to grips with the 70s and the Lord of the Universe period. They also seem to wish that period would just die away and be forgotten, as it is very embarrassing, but they completely reject the idea that Maharaji wasn't himself the instigator of the more outrageous stuff that went on then. They admit that, chalk some of it up to his youth. They would also prefer that he tone down his lifestyle, stop the trinket bizarres at programs, and be more direct in presenting what knowledge is really about. One premie said he feels Maharaji 'pulls his punches' because he's afraid of appearing like a cult leader, and isn't quite sure how to present knowledge to people. As a result, nothing really happens and premies don't do any propogation and there aren't any new premies in the West, because they are so confused about how to present him.

3. They don't give Maharaji money, or they do it very selectively, because they think he and his organization waste most of it.

4. As I said, they are kind of embarrassed by Maharaji's past, but in some respects they wish it was kind of like that again, with communities and enthusiasm. But they are realistic and don't expect that. In my opinion, they have basically really reduced their expectations of Maharaji and knowledge, and, to some extent, they are willing to accept that.

5. They think the ex-premie site is understandable, but they also wish it would go away as well. They don't understand why I, for example, am interested in talking about Maharaji when I left being a premie so many years ago. [I told them it's fun and I find it interesting.] But, they admit they do read the website and the forum from time to time.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 15:07:07 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Standing Up For Premies
Message:
So then, the less someone says or does in support of maharaji and his organization, the less ignorant things they do and say. Makes sense to me. Yes, this is sort of like a mini-hobby.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 15:10:52 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Traitor!
Message:
Just kidding!

But seriously, why would premies like the ones you describe still hang on and believe in M?
What's there to believe in anyway?
He's not leading anywhere, right?

Actually human beings tend to take the path of least resistance, to actually break away from him would take major effort - introspection, 'thinking' - all verboten.

Oh, by the way, JW, happy new breath!
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 15:29:31 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Traitor!
Message:


Well, I'm not so sure they DO believe in him. They certainly don't believe in him the way I ever did. They seem to say that they like knowledge and in some vague way, they think he has something to do with the experience, and they say he will 'remind' them of knowledge, but if you scratch below the surface, they don't really know if that's true or not. They do speak about gratitude for getting revealed knowledge, and that they attribute that to him. I frankly don't think they really know what his ongoing function really is. They also don't do meditation every day, just sometimes, and these people hardly ever go to a video event, although they did go to the 'Satellite Event' but they go to programs in the US, I think. They really dislike the organization around Maharaji, but that's nothing new.

I think they 'hang on' to the extent they do, partly out of a sense of loyalty and partly out of nostalgia for their youth. They've been involved with him so long and they don't want to discard him, they just lower their expectations, continually. And, unlike me, they lowered them gradually, over the years, and so it doesn't seem as weird to them as it does to me that Maharaji goes from GOD to TEACHER and it's no big deal.

But I think they are really on the fence. Their involvement is so minimal and so little is required of them to be a premie, that it really is like a path of least resisitance, as you said. And they also admit that they haven't told anyone new about knowledge or Maharaji in years. They just don't talk about it to anyone but premies.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 16:57:24 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Traitor!
Message:
I have to agree with that 100%, JW. Is the nostalgia part of why we all like hanging around here so much? Now be honest, everyone!!
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 17:24:51 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Okay, I Admit It
Message:
Is the nostalgia part of why we all like hanging around here so much? Now be honest, everyone!!

Yeah, I feel some nostalgia for that period, mostly the early part of my premie life. I just am amazed at how idealistic and trusting I was. And it was really exciting thinking you were on the vanguard of a power of love that was sweeping over the world and changing it forever, for the better. And a lot of the premies were great people, and it was exciting being part of a mass-movement that had one, single focus. But it's for the group and the youth that I'm nostalgic, not Maharaji or 'knowledge.' And I never get to talk about it with anyone else, because they think it's just boring nonsense, but you guys understand.

Now, I would also say, that if I had it to do over again, I wish I had never even heard about Guru Maharaj Ji, because it was a VERY costly involvement, and it definitely wasn't worth it.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 15:49:15 (EST)
From: Garth
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Traitor!
Message:
We aren't or shouldn't be attacking premies, in spite of the perception by some that we are, anymore than the poor saps who followed Jim and Tammy Fay Bakker were or should habe been attacked. This perception by them is bred out of our attacks on the things they value most, which they no longer consider as having a separate identity from them. It's natural, 'if you attack my beliefs, you are attacking me', but its not strictly accurate. Trouble is, they've abdicated having personalities distinct from their dogma for so long they've failed to achieve any kind of spiritual maturity. This arrested development leaves them in the mental position of children striving to defend inarticulate longings and falling back on emotional posturing and simplistic cliches like 'M is Love' 'Peace is Within' etc
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 16:28:11 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Garth
Subject: Traitor!
Message:
Garth, I really like your posts, very articulate , welcome to the forum!!
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 16:37:46 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Garth
Subject: Confession time
Message:
Does anyone actually attack premies?

I don't think I have ever attacked a premie, other than I made some inappropriate comments about an old ashram buddie of mine, but I made them in jest.

Really, when I laugh at the 'premie mindset' I am laughing at myself, because yes, folks, I was a premie!

I was probably stupider than the stupidest premie ever! I bought into the trip, hook, line, and sinker. So when I laugh at the guru those are well earned laughs. I paid for them long time ago.
Well, actually I have had a few laughs at some initiators expense. I called arthur brigham mahatma pompousassanand. Forgive me, Arthur, but you were a pompous ... well, never mind.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 16:47:30 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Confession time
Message:
I've certainly attacked what premies say, but I think that's different than attacking THEM. But I know when you are on the receiving end of criticism of what you say, it's hard not to take it personally.

And let's fact it exes, we are REALLY sensitive when the cult-mindset gets laid on us. We had SO MUCH of it for years and we've worked so hard to get away from it, that when it happens again it gets to us really easy. I know it does me. If some premie says I don't understand, that I never understood, that I never had any experience, that I'm in my mind, or if they lie about what really went on in the cult, I tend to react. Sometimes I just laugh, but sometimes I feel the blood pressure rising.

The thing about the two premies I was talking to is that I think they really represent a segment of the premie population. They aren't 'active premies,' they are cynical about a lot of what M does and his motivations, and yet they are still 'premies,' sort of. I got the impression they really wanted to talk to me because of the forum. They really wanted me to know that not all premies are like the ones we have been hearing from lately. But they aren't about to come on the forum and say that, because they are loyal to Maharaji, and they think that would hurt him and they don't want to do that.

But, they also think that premies like Nil and Passing Thru, also really hurt Maharaji, because they sound so out there. In fact, they think enjoyinglife is bad as well for the same reason, but they seem to admit that BM has decided to get his big behind behind ELK for some reason, financial they suspect.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 17:59:12 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: JW & John
Subject: Stupidity, Intelligence,Wisdom
Message:
Some good points, J & J.

One reason I have never much minded the flaming that goes on here (and have joined in with, from time to time - usually more in a good-humoured rather than angry style, I hope), is because I see the distinction between attacking a person and that person's words, as fairly flimsy - especially as it is only words that are being exchanged. Everybody is equally well-armed when it comes to writing long posts, angry posts, friendly posts, nasty posts etc. If anyone doesn't like what they're reading they can either respond in kind, click onto the next message, or just go away.

If a premie makes a stupid remark, there are a number of possible responses: (1) 'You're Stupid', or (2) 'You're being stupid', or maybe (3) 'That was a stupid remark'. I'd agree that (3) is far more benign than (2), or especially (1), which might be construed as offensive in real life. But within the context of whichever discussion is going on, they all convey pretty much the same meaning to the person under attack.

Also, it all depends who is saying it. If you count the person as being one of your cyberpals, then to be attacked by them would be far more hurtful than if it were just some anonymous angry ex or premie. I don't really care what practising premies think of me, except perhaps on those rare occasions where you find you've managed to get a bit of a promising dialogue going. Usually, however, I find the premie posts to be hostile from the outset, frequently employing that hit-and-run 'passive-aggressive' style, where you get two or three lines of the same old weary sniping, often expressed very courteously, but posted without any desire to actually engage with the issues under discussion. Another evasive tactic is play hurt, or even to storm off in disgust - even though the person already knew exactly what kind of person they were talking to, and had no need to be talking to.

I find that kind of non-flaming far more offensive than someone saying 'You're stupid', but who then sticks around to try and justify why they said it.

But we have all been pretty stupid in our time. As you point out, John, with the exception of, I think VP and X (who have very good reason to be here), everybody who posts has at one time or another swallowed the whole crock of toxic garbage. I often see my former self in the words of the premies posting here, and any hostily I might express is, I think, really being directed at that former personal incarnation.

I doubt any of us is more or less intelligent now than back in the days when we were at our most guru-blinded. But stupid, we certainly were, simply because following M requires you to suspend the greater part of your better judgement. I think the stupidity/clarity dimension is a whole other personal attribute from any of the intelligence / knowledge / skills/ learning-type variables. Clarity, and a measure of wisdom can even come quickly when you have one of those moments of sudden insight into what the cult has done for you, and to you, over the years.

It has always helped me in the past, when saying something pitiful or ridiculous, to have it immediately pointed out to me. If more of my non-premie friends and family had been less respectful and more confrontational towards the more off-the-wall claims I used to make on M's behalf, I think I might have been outa there far sooner than I was. Even more so if this website had been around back then.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 23:40:50 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Stupidity, Intelligence,Wisdom
Message:
If a premie makes a stupid remark, there are a number of possible responses: (1) 'You're Stupid', or (2) 'You're being stupid', or maybe (3) 'That was a stupid remark'. I'd agree that (3) is far more benign than (2), or especially (1), which might be construed as offensive in real life. But within the context of whichever discussion is going on, they all convey pretty much the same meaning to the person under attack.

Nigel, I see what you are saying, but I really do think there is a distinct difference in those responses and while you don't know how someone will react, number 3 at least leaves the door open to further discussion. Also, if you take the time to explain why you think the remark was stupid, as opposed to just saying it was stupid and leaving it there, or just calling them names, both of which I have seen ex-premies do to premies, that also makes a big difference. Even someone who doesn't like what is being said has to admit that if you at least take the time to explain, you aren't writing them off completely. You are at least treating them like a real person as opposed to a crazy cult member.

Also, it all comes down to the definition of 'stupid.' And it's a pretty subjective defintion. We are dealing with two very different world views between premie and ex-premie, although in talking to some premies recently, I appreciate more that there are a lot of gray areas in those worlds, and they overlap in some areas, and maybe they aren't all that far apart, once you get past the fear, on the part of premies, and the indignation and consternation, on the part of ex-premies.

I doubt any of us is more or less intelligent now than back in the days when we were at our most guru-blinded. But stupid, we certainly were, simply because following M requires you to suspend the greater part of your better judgement

Yes, I was stupid, but I was also an entirely different person then than I am now. And I was stupid only in that particular area -- in believing and having faith in Maharaji. I wasn't stupid in other areas, and actually used whatever intelligence I had for the benefit of the Lord. Many premies I knew were very intelligent and creative, and I'm sure many still are. And the same is true of at least some of the premies who post here. They just have a huge blindspot when it comes to Maharaji. Plus, as I said before, we should acknowledge that many ex-premies are super-sensitive to being given 'guruspeak' or other concepts from premies that remind us of the cult, and many of the things we regret, and when I get that, I sometimes react more emotionally than rationally. That isn't inappropriate, but it's part of the dynamic.

But let's face it, if the premies didn't have doubts about Maharaji and the rest, they wouldn't be here. They wouldn't care what any of us think, but they keep coming back. The energy that happens here is attractive to a lot of premies for the very fact that they really do doubt what they are into, maybe not entirely on a conscious level.

I'm sure I would have gotten out sooner if there were ex-premies around to talk to back in the early 80s. They just weren't and there wasn't a forum. But I think if my family or any non-premies had done that, I would have just cut them off. So, I'm glad they didn't.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 11:50:17 (EST)
From: Lezley
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Stupidity, Intelligence,Wisdom
Message:
I've been a premie for 16 years and have never felt that I ve had to make any claims on Maharaji's behalf. Why did you? In all the videos I ve watched and the programs that I ve attended not once have I felt that Maharaji has asked me to make statements about him or Knowledge.For me it is a very personal experience. I ve always been a private person about my feelings, hopes etc. I dont see it as a bad thing that people dont espouse the great benefits of Knowledge, maybe its just not in their personalities to be vocal.
I'm new to the net and have viewed your site a few times now.
I've never experienced anything that you guys have and I wondered if maybe its just your personalities. The 'premie mind set' that
has been refered to in some of the posts has been replaced by what- some other kind of 'mind-set'?
The person feeling is the only one who really knows what their feeling.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 14:52:08 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Lezley
Subject: Stupidity, Intelligence,Wisdom
Message:
I've been a premie for 16 years and have never felt that I ve had to make any claims on Maharaji's behalf. Why did you? In all the videos I ve watched and the programs that I ve attended not once have I felt that Maharaji has asked me to make statements about him or Knowledge.

This might be partly because of the time of your involvement. Sounds like you got involved about the time I was getting out. At least until 1983, Maharaji said repeatedly that we should tell people are knowledge, we should 'propogate' knowledge We used to set up a big picture of Maharaji in a public park and just start talking out loud about him and knowledge to anyone who would listen. Maharaji specifically approved this, by the way.

We used to wear buttons with his picture on it, we used to have altars to him everywhere with his picture, even in our cars. I know that's toned down these days, but it did happen.

I've never experienced anything that you guys have and I wondered if maybe its just your personalities.

I think you might feel differently if you felt you gave up a big part of your life to follow Maharaji. It didn't used to be about just 'enjoying life.' It used to be a whole life. You were to practice, satsang, service and meditation 24 hours a day, and surrender and dedicate your entire life to Maharaji. If you did that, like a lot of us did for years, only to find it was fraudulent, or, in the least, Maharaji decided one day it wasn't 'about' that, and it's just fine to practice knowledge without that kind of dedication, can't you see why people would get pissed at Maharaji for that? Can't you see that you would tend to think he was either outrageouslly incompetent as a 'master' or was insincere and lying to us about all that?

Maybe the premie 'mind-set' has changed, but you couldn't tell it from a lot of the premies who post here. It sounds very familiar to what it always was.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 21:20:02 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Lezley
Subject: Yeah, it's our personalities
Message:
Lezley,

I admit I have a problem. I trust people too much. When Maharaji said:

'Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now it's your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy?'

I took it to heart. I gave up everything else I cared about -- everything -- and formally surrendered my life to him by moving into his ashram.

And when he said stuff like this:

'There is nothing much to say except that you have a duty to perform by Guru Maharaj Ji's agya. You have an agya to fulfill before you that there is no escape from -- unless you want to escape the truth, the realism of this life, that devotion.

If you have any questions about your duty, about your service, that pertain to me, ask me. If you don't, that autmoatically means that you are going to go out and hold the responsibility of the duty that has been assigned to you. Right? I mean, do I make myself clear? Yes?'


I knew what I had to do. See, he couldn't have made the point clearer, saying, as he did, stuff like:

'It doesn't matter. Do you understand yourself as a premie who has realized this Knowledge or not? You are a premie. Right? When you received this Knowledge, you dedicated your life to me. Right? If you are so fake and phony as to refuse your duty, as to regret your duty, then I don't think you are even a premie.

And if you are a premie and have dedicated your life to Guru Maharaj Ji and you wnat to do service to Guru Maharaj Ji, it doesn't matter what service Guru Maharaj Ji assigns to you. Whatever is needed, then you should be ready to do it.'


Frankly, I was a little afraid to do otherwise. Following my own judgment might be the worse thing possible, like signing on to a life in hell. You know, I heard a lot of stuff like:

'So that mind, that factor that's always against us, can get us; it has the potential of getting us. What I'm trying to say, is that I'm not trying to kid you when I say that the mind can zap you, the mind can get you. It can get you. And we have to be aware of that, and do something, and the only thing we can do to avoid that, is to surrender to Guru Maharaj Ji. So it's only our effort, premies, that's really going to do it. .....'

and:

'Because without Guru Maharaj Ji, everything just deteriorates in our lives. And it's like, maybe to some people that's like, 'Well, nothing has deteriorated in my life yet.' And yet we have to understand that for those people it is deteriorating, and that we have to come to that one conclusion in our own hearts.'

But, then again, maybe that was just me. If only I'd had YOUR personality I would have ..... what? What would I have done, Lezley? Tell me, what would I have done?

I knew I had a duty to do and that Maharaji himself
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 20:17:45 (EST)
From: Zac the Gypsy
Email: None
To: Lezley
Subject: Ex-Premie mind reader
Message:
Ah Lezley, welcome and come in! Sit right here, yes dear that's it. Now you have come for me to tell your future. This I can do, but first let me tell you something about you past. 'You were searching for something beautiful within, something simple within, something he..he free within, no? Yes dear I think so. Then you found it and it came from a small rotund indian man. Yes, I think so my dear. And so far this free knowledge has cost you... I must go deep now. 16 years times $300 per year donations plus $2000 per year travel expense plus $150 per year miscellaneous video, audio tape magazine picture expense. Let's see that's $39,200 excluding interest lost approximately $16,000 for a total of $55,200. No need to be alarmed my dear I'm certain it's a beautiful experience he..he.

Now my dear i see your future coming into focus. Yes it is incredible. You will travel to Malibu and become an instructor. You'll get rid of your dog, leave your current boyfriend and job sell off all of your furniture. You'll have about $20,000 when you arrive in Malibu to serve. But of course you'll need housing for a while and then other expenses and now the Guru has left town and won't be back for a while so you wait and it's donation time and you'll give and then HE's back but oh no the scene is changing. You will not be an instructor. Everything has changed there will be no more instructors. You are free to go home and enjoy this knowledge. But I..I.have no money to return home you'll say. Ah that is to bad this is not a charity, trust in the Lord my dear. But I did, you'll say and the man will dissappear behind the gate of the marble palace.

There is no more. Zac the Gypsy cannot see any more for today it is too tiring. Now go my dear and listen to no one but yourself. But especially beware off the small rotund indian man for he may promise you everything and leave you with nothing.....though I AM CERTAIN IT IS A BEAUTIFUL EXPERIENCE....he..he.. go now.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 18:11:21 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Premie mindset
Message:
This is a very interesting thread for me. I felt and thought exactly like the premies you described. Until I read this page. One of the things that bothered me most was that in the US at least, Maharaji had withdrawn his energy for the past 5-10 years except for a few programs. The video events were a joke, for propagation sake at least. And only mildly interesting for the people who regularly meditated. It felt to me like what happened with the ashrams, he stopped even bothering with them in 1980 and closed them in 1983.

My feeling is he truly does not give a shit. He's looking at U.S. premies and saying to himself, 'They aren't inviting people, hell with 'em. Where else are they gonna go for this experience.' Premies are thinking, who can I invite? Certainly not anyone in my family or anyone at work or a member at the golf course, wouldn't want that to get around. Maybe I can invite that person I talk with at the bus stop. He doesn't know anyone I know.'

It is ridiculously embarrassing to introduce someone to knowledge.
You bring them into the room with a few people sitting quietly. New Age Musak in the back ground. Musak stops screen comes on MJ speaks 2 videos. Video ends musak comes on. Time to leave. Most leave with a nod or a quiet hello. If you are spotted by the aspirant coordinator they'll ask how your friend liked it so they can get their name and notify them for an important event, Instructor visit or something like that. Your friend may get calls for a year or longer, being notified of these special events. Finally your friend may notify you to notify them to leave him or her alone.

Now, of course, premies I've talked to recognize that if the person is truly a friend and interested, you in all good conscience have to tell them about the EX-PREMIE PAGE fairly quickly on. Let them know there are two sides to the story. Then let em' know they are on their own.

The aspirant process is another matter and can be downright degrading. Envision some of the half-baked instructors
talking with your friend. Remember the instructor is in another realm of cult programming that I can only guess at. They stand representing their Lord in the selection process afraid to make a mistake going strictly by the book. So if some single mother of four can't get to a program in a major city once a week because it's a two hour drive or she has to work, her once in a lifetime trip to Miami to receive knowledge is foiled. Better luck next time. Premies know that it is extremely risky to invite anyone they truly care about. The odds of those people surviving the process are low and they risk losing their friend.

Finally premies are realizing that they cannot trust one word Maharaji says. They may love him but they don't trust him. Just ask them. 'Would you let Maharaji watch your kids?' (answer please).

Finally.... Maharaji has been humping the video experience. In 1979 he screamed on a video 'How much experience do you think you can 'screw' out of a video?' Wasn't that when he started seeing Monica?
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 23:50:48 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Premie mindset
Message:
Zac:

Your post is fascinating, because you sound kind of like the two premies I was talking to. They have written off propogation entirely, and they frankly can't figure out why Maharaji is doing such a bad job 'disseminating' knowledge in North America. It was almost like they were saying, 'Shit, Maharaji has changed his mind so many times and now he says HE is going to disseminate and reveal knowledge, so what the hell, let him do it; I don't want any part of it.'

They are 'silent premies' or maybe 'invisible premies.' I asked one guy if anyone he works with knows he is a premie and has a 'master' and he said no. He thought it was his private business. Frankly, I think they are embarrassed.

Finally premies are realizing that they cannot trust one word Maharaji says. They may love him but they don't trust him. Just ask them.

Yes, this was exactly what they were saying, but maybe not in those words. They feel loyal to him, maybe they even love him, like you love your grandfather, even though you know he's flawed and crazy, but they don't like what he's doing, wish he was different, but have given up thinking he will change.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 12:54:19 (EST)
From: Web Watcher
Email: do_not_panic@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Where are they now?
Message:
Click here to find old friends
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 16:32:48 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Web Watcher
Subject: A suggestion...
Message:
Great idea, WW. However, it might take a little while until you get your first customer, unless you do the following:

You know how you will never see buskers in the street with a whole hat full of money? Nor will you usually see the hat empty. The former suggests 'Got enough already', while the latter says 'Nobody else is interested, so why should you be?' I think you should put a few phantom contact requests in there to get the thing going. Take them out later when the crowds start rolling in. Just an idea. Good luck.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 21:52:54 (EST)
From: Web Watcher
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: A suggestion...
Message:
Not a bad idea but it looks like it won't be neccesary. Within just a few hours of the site going on line there's already two people posted and about 50 hits on the site.

I know what you mean about the buskers though. The beauty about something like the linkup site is that the more people who use it, the more will be encouraged to use it. Success breeds success, if you know what I mean. If it becomes very successful then I'll put a much more elaborate database on there with a search facility and groupings by country and other catagories. The present setup is just to get it on line but there's scope for a whole lot more.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 22:13:42 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Web Watcher
Subject: A suggestion...
Message:
Like the idea. We inherited the site with the White Pages in place and continued with the tradition of making them ex-only. But I'll be updating the links page really soon and I'll add the URL. Have to add Roger's House of Drek and Maharaji's House of Drek too...

Nice job!
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 12:35:54 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Oh How It Angers The Premies
Message:
I've noticed many angry reponses, lately, to the Forum, from premies. I'm not surprised for a couple of reasons...

One, an insult to maharaji and knowledge is more threatening to a premie than being insulted themselves. At the very center of a premie's psyche is a belief system that props up their self-esteem by claiming to give them the most valuable treasure in the universe. Not only can they feel they've acquired spiritual riches, but they can feel superior to others... those who don't have the eyes to see, or the good karma to get the 'gift'. Surrounding this illusion of self-esteem, and the delusion of mana from heaven, is a belief system that is a house of cards.

Secondly, one of the fallouts of the belief system is that it's rooted in the disrespect of emotional expression. Anger, fear, sadness, etc. are treated as part of a world that can only be transcended by ignoring it. Anger left untended turns into rage, especially when one's self-esteem is threatened, and one's treasure is treated like trash.

Add to this a belief system that starts out with several suppositions that have to be taken for granted before you can even begin:

1. 'That Love' - an altered state whose description is so vague that it could mean almost anything, as long as it's better than before.

2. 'This Life' - supposedly only valuable if you get 'That Love' but when you do, it's terribly precious.

3. 'The Master - the guy who can give you 'That Love' in 'This Life'.

4. 'Faith' - without faith, none of it works. So you need to be in a state of belief for any of this to work.

5. 'Participation' - without dishing out some dough, or volunteering your services, your 'Faith' won't be strong in 'The Master', who gives 'That Love', which makes 'This Life' precious.

6. 'Gratitude' - whether you're grateful or not, just be grateful, because without that, you can't be more grateful.

These suppositions, when examined closely, reveal a huge bag of hot wind. Mention this to a premie, and what seems like a reasonable statement is construed as an insult to one's mother. It's no wonder premies get so upset. The righteousness in their indignation fuels a venom that corresponds to the intensity of their delusion. Fortunately, the more they talk, the dumber they sound.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 13:13:48 (EST)
From: Garth
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Oh How It Angers The Premies
Message:
Good analysis Rick. Even understanding all that, for me the key to getting a premie's goat (this could become a hobby) is telling how, in so many ways they've been used and their god is nothing more than Jim Bakker on a grand scale. But I guess I shouldn't do that; don't they need our help to extricate themselves from His clutches? Still, they are adults and ought to bear some responsibility for their decisions. Going on the attack is still my preferred response; at least it may elicit some doubt (God Forbid!) on their part.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 13:43:04 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Oh How It Angers The Premies
Message:
Very true Rick. The more fragile and wobbly a belief system is, like Maharaji's is, the more you have to protect it, either by defending it, or, more commonly for premies, avoid talking about it in any terms other than the code words you mentioned. And the more fear there is that you might lose the understanding, get confused, and turn into hateful people like us ex-premies. the less likely a premie will be willing to examine what he or she believes.

'That Love' (and 'love' can be, and still is, replaced with a multitude of other meaningless (in this context) terms like peace, joy, fulfillment, place, beauty). By putting 'that' in front of virtually anything, Maharaji turns it into a premie code word, denoting something special or extraordinary and connecting it with him. Once it's a code word,a premie is free from the need to define or examine what it really means. As an added impetus, Maharaji criticizes those who analyze, examine, or think about any of this.

But some other words that used to be used no longer are (like energy, bliss, realization, spiritual path, and I think he's even trying to stay away from 'experience' as in the meaningless term 'that experience.')

'Faith' - without faith, none of it works. So you need to be in a state of belief for any of this to work.

Very true. This is the crux of Maharaji's trip. If you don't believe in it, there isn't any experience. Maharaji used to use this word all the time, saying, in terms directly contradictory to his other statements, that this wasn't a religion but was about 'experience,' and therefore faith wasn't necessary.

But now, this term has been replaced by the more relatable and non-religious word 'understanding,' but it is equally contradictory to what he preaches, and really all he means is faith and accepting of the belief system, whether you have any experience or not. This is a superficial feeling of safety and contentment in doing that, which many premies like, but many of us eventually rebelled against this, and, ultimately, it's a big problem for the vast majority of people who get involved with Maharaji and they leave.

'Gratitude'

This is the updated PR term for what Maharaji used to call devotion. He actually says the gratitude enhances the experience of knowledge and through knowledge you get to have 'gratitude' which is a great experience in and of itself, and therefore a gift. He said the same things about 'devotion' although he's dropped the idea that 'devotion' or 'gratitude' is REALLY what it's all about and that knowledge is secondary. This is another major change, and quite opposite what he used to preach.

Again, basically, it's all talking in circles. You can actually take whatever Maharaji says and replace a lot of those words with the other code words and find it's identical to what he said someplace else on some other date. That's why, if you ask a premie to repeat something Maharaji actually said, they usually can't remember anything, except maybe something outside the code words like a joke or something. There isn't any there, there. Premies who like videos like the feeling of security and reassurance they get from them, not the actual content. Others are just bored because there ISN'T any content.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 18:55:02 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: JW & Rick
Subject: Oh How It Angers The Premies
Message:
There is a relationship being built between premies who read here and ex-premies who post. They kind of admire the people who are freely thinking and expressing themselves and are jealous of how fun this site is compared to ELK and MJORG. But they are caught between that and their programming and loyalty to MJ. It's almost 2000. They want to have some fun.

When I first saw this site I was aghast, intrigued, and delighted all at the same time. I'd visited ELK twice and wondered why I was enjoying reading these posts so much and couldn't stand the drivel on ELK. Maybe, the thought occurred, I don't have to be a premie. You see I'd been around so long I had accepted that this was what I was and I could not change my life. I had knowledge and I was a premie forever. Christ, these realizations are scary. You see the way it is now no commitment is necessary. Mahrji's making so there is no reason to leave. You just hang around forever.........
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 20:47:58 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Welcome to hell, Zac
Message:
Zac,

I've enjoyed reading your comments recently. It's particularly interesting to hear how your egress from the cult transpired. Thanks.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 21:36:28 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Welcome to hell, Zac
Message:
Jim -Did you have a business selling safes when you were in the city of angels, 81?
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 21:52:33 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Oh How It Angers The Premies
Message:
You see the way it is now no commitment is
necessary. Mahrji's making so there is no reason to
leave. You just hang around forever.........


I have never ever seen K lite explained so well with so few words.
Reminds me of the Sarte play 'No Exit'

brrrr.... oh and welcome.....
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 03:03:30 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Oh How It Angers The Premies
Message:
I'm just amazed at how dumb you guys are... and you Dick are one of the dumbest. The AMAZING thing is how you cling to your biases and premie stereotypes no matter what evidence is presented to the contrary. For example, your comment:

'Secondly, one of the fallouts of the belief system is that it's rooted in the disrespect of emotional expression. Anger, fear, sadness, etc. are treated as part of a world that can only be transcended by ignoring it.'

Yeah... you really pegged me there Dick. Calm, emotionless, trying to ignore my urge to express myself. You're a joke Dick... now if you were only funny.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 03:34:10 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Oh How a putz can deceive
Message:
Yeah... you really pegged me there...Calm, emotionless, trying to ignore my urge to express myself.
Ok Nil, so you're a freak of nature, the exception to the rule, who gives a shit?
Hey, we wouldn't expect any different from the prince of bullshit revisionism, would we now?
All anybody has to do to observe the lobotomyzing effect of m,k and the cult is go over to the enjoying life site or premie. org to witness the inspired expression of rotting vegetables.
Really Nil, if you were a tavern... you'd be serving all foam and no beer.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 14:35:39 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Nimrod
Subject: Oh How a putz can deceive
Message:
Really Nil, if you were a tavern... you'd be serving all foam and no beer.

HAHAHAHAH - I like that one.

About a year ago, I had this premie unleash this fury on me. It was very intense, she gave me a very descriptive and lengthly narrative of everything that was wrong with me, described in detail all these 'awful' things I had done; Although there were some truths that I needed to hear, some of the stuff that had so angered here either happened ages ago or were so small in insignificant. I was floored. It was one of the big 'drips' that brought me here seeking support. I remember after it happened I told her that for her own sake she should learn how to speak up when something was wrong. She gave these weird rationalizations for not speaking up. One of them I remember was 'The reason I still have a job is because I don't speak up' sigh, there's just some people, I believe this, who have been around M and his trip so long that there is no getting out of the mindset. No hope for that.
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 00:12:55 (EST)
From: nimrod
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Oh How a putz can deceive
Message:
'The reason I still have a job is because I don't speak up' sigh,
yeah, the reason she did't speak up was because NOT SPEAKING UP was such a big part of the cult's conditioning, and it then extended to other areas of her life eg. her job.
Now it is true that in some situations, silence is golden, or a virtue, and perhaps it was so for your friend in her job, in some way.But when SILENCE or NOT SPEAKING OUT becomes a rationale so we can avoid dealing with the emotional, mental, physical, and social realities, well good luck, because you're on a path towards incresing dysfunctionalism.
I truly believe Selene, you can't block yourself in one emotion, and not block yourself off in others. Same for thoughts.
When pwicks refuse to think about or question any aspect of m and his trip , for fear that it will take them away from m, well they're creating mental and emotional energy blocks in their lives that are bound to effect them in other areas.
You can consider the above a self diagnosis. My own condition.
That's why I speak with so much authority on the subject.
It also really f**ks up human communications. All this blocking and suppressing of thoughts and emotions makes for really weird people and relationships.
Two thoughts, Selene, re those premies who will never break free.
1. 'there but for the Grace of God go I'
2. Hey, don't blame me, I'm postn.
Take care, speak to you again soon.:)
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 12:05:48 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: nimrod
Subject: Oh How a putz can deceive
Message:
Thanks nimrod, for responding. That incident upset me more than it shows in my post.
This person and I had gone through 2 decades of stuff together. I really thought she was my best friend.

I will never trust an old timer premie, ever again. Just as you wrote, I blame the years of indoctrination for her behavior.

As I said, I had a part in it, I was in a deep depression at the time, drinking and taking too many of the wrong drugs, etc. But STILL!!! I want to believe a true friend would have confronted me in the early stages, not wait years!!!!

Anyway, I really appreciate what you wrote. I am not quite healed from that incident.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 11:17:00 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Oh How It Angers The Premies
Message:
Nil,
You're unable, for whatever reason, to understand what's being discussed here. Either you don't understand knowledge or you're lying. Either way you're a fool, and no one here takes you seriously.

Although the ex-premies have alot of solid evidence to offer that maharaji and knowledge are a fraud, nothing quite hits the spot like one of your posts. Thanks.
Rick
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 07:51:01 (EST)
From: The Undoubting Mind
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Problem with this site
Message:
'You people are talking to each other. This is not good. You are discussing and analyzing and thinking about the words of the master. This will hurt your spiritual development. You even wonder where the money goes. How dare you have those thoughts. He is the perfect and priveleged master. He must be taken care of in style before you get new underwear. DON'T YOU KNOW WHERE THIS IS HEADING? YOU MUST STOP THIS INSOLENCE NOW!!!!!'
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 08:33:59 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: The Undoubting Mind
Subject: The Problem with satire
Message:
The post at the top of this thread didn't originate from a bongo premie making devotion-crazed threats. But that was my first thought, and I was very close to deleting it from the forum.

Please choose your words more carefully when you want to post this sort of characature under a new name. Katie may yet delete the thread, which would be fine by me.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 09:15:49 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: The Problem with satire
Message:
Sorry about that Brian. The leave no room for doubt in your mind
commandment screwed me up big time. Delete if you want. Some of my posts upon rereading are laced with anger and I try to deal with that by being satirical or funny. A little too much realism I guess.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 10:06:40 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: I think it's great! (nt)
Message:
nada
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 10:09:00 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Zac
Subject: perceived threats
Message:
No problem, Zac. I left it in place with a reassuring response for anyone who might have read it the same way as I did at first.

I already got this email regarding my response, and I'll answer it here:

Are you saying that you edit or delete threads that do not conform to a specified ideology? Like M's site?

No, not at all. Threatening posts are NOT allowed on the forum. The post involved a threat that 'something bad will happen' as a result of the 'insolent' behavior of people who discuss Maharaji's words and teachings.

Along with protecting ex's from being threatened and intimidated out of using the forum by anonymous premies (and versy-visa), Katie and I also have to protect the legal status of the forum by preventing it being used as a platform for illegal threats against others.

There are a lot of hard feelings that get vented here, and it's difficult at times to determine the intent of the words posted. We make bad calls occasionally, but prefer to error on the side of safety by deleting posts that can be interpreted as constituting threats.

Anyone who persists in using this forum to make threats of violence will find their IP blocked to posting here.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 10:45:43 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: support for your view
Message:
Remember my DUO post? I thought I was simply hilarious. It was a satire of 'we are watching you' from a supposed premie.

The first response was poor Gail who was at that time wavering about leaving the guru behind. I terrified her. I felt terrible. I had only meant it as humor.

Later on a lot of posts have stated that the guru really does have people whose 'service' it is to monitor this board.

I think satire is great but like you said satire with imaginary threats may only be clearly imaginary to some of the people who read them.

Gail would never take that post seriously now. She is sharp as a tack now. But she was in a very vulnerable spot at that time and I felt truly awful I caused her even a moments distress.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 21:42:58 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: support for your view
Message:
Thanks for that, G's Mom! It's true enough. When I was leaving the cult, I was very paranoid. The fear and guilt of betraying the Lard was overwhelming. HOW DID I GET TO BE SO GUILTY AND FEARFUL? I was using the pseudonym, Iola, but I imagined that the monitors had found me out (and I wasn't quite ready to quit). When you are in an unstable mindset, jokes can go over your head.

Also cult life had turned me into a concrete thinker (an ignorant, village idiot with a high IQ--many premies are). Remember, I stopped reading anything except the occasional newspaper, textbooks for school and other how-to-do books for 24 years (thanks Peter Lenin for that precious concept). I rarely watched TV except for the Lard flicks and movies (MJ said the news was bad). So, there you go! What can you expect from a crane?

All the same, Zac, I like your posts and I sure understand your anger. I feel that way myself.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 13:06:49 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: satire and anger vs threats
Message:
Hi Zac - thanks very much for posting your response. The only problem that Brian and I had with your post is in your last two lines, which I am going to edit (you can see my revised version above):

YOU MUST STOP THIS INSOLENCE NOW BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE. SOMETHING VERY BAD WILL HAPPEN!!!!!'

If you read the Forum Introduction, you'll see that we delete (or edit) posts that contain threatening statements. Brian explained why we do this in his posts. For the record, & just so everyone knows, we also delete posts in which people post under other people's names. Neither of us would ever delete a post just because it was angry.

I would also like to say that G's mom had a good point in her post. Because we don't all know each other really well, and becaus we're communicating by typing words (no facial or visual cues), it's not always clear that some posts are satirical or joking, and certain people may take these kinds of posts seriously, depending on their state of mind at the time. This has caused some distress among people on the forum, and thus I feel that it's good to somehow indicate that a satirical or joking post is not serious (if possible).

By the way, Zac, I am really glad you are on the forum, and I've liked your posts a lot. Good to have you here.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 13:44:18 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: forum policy question
Message:
I remember seeing policy guidelines which recquired the use of ONLY one screenname. Alot of exes post satirical comments which can be quite funny, but I wonder if it's worth the trouble. I really don't like to see premies taking the same liberty. It creates an evasive atmosphere when it's time for serious discussion.

Is there any of chance of enforcing the one-name policy?

Sorry, Scott. I guess pentium 3 will have to wait.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 14:14:47 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: forum policy question
Message:
Hi Runamok -
The forum policy on screen names is that we ENCOURAGE people to use one screen name, but don't enforce it. I think that using one screen name, especially for serious posts, makes communication easier, and helps people get to know each other. It is not something that we want to ENFORCE, however - hope you can understand this.

Take care,
Katie

P.S. Just thought I'd add though, that I think personas like Willi Kranz, Minnesota Housewife, and John Hammond-Smythe are very funny, and since the real people behind these people are 'out', I don't have a problem with that.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 14:34:20 (EST)
From: Minnesota Housewife
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: hey there, Katie
Message:
Well, that's a relief there, Katie. I've been following this thread and just wanted to say you and Bri are doing a great job there, eh. Sometimes Our Lady of Perpetual Sorrow Lutheran Church here in St. Paul can be a bit of a cult, but nothing compared to what you all have gone through. Sometimes I do feel like breaking free of making jello salad at the pastor's pot lucks, and those ladies with the blue hair who pry thier noses into eveyone's business are really getting on my nerves. I say live and let live, don't ya know!. Did I tell you I found a support group for my QVC addiction? Also, I had to give up my affair with Jahn Jahnson, it was getting too complicated. I guess I started feeling too guilty, being married and all, but jeez, the sex was great. Oh well, life goes on, you betcha!!
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 14:57:02 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: Katie and Brian
Subject: is this a threat?
Message:
Hi Katie,
Skunkfart (aka Jim Heller i suppose...) posted this on February 19. Is this considered a threat or just kidding?

'Yeah! Hit him again! Keep hitting him and kicking him until he's a bloody mess! You can do it. Then start on the rest of his family 'til they're all screaming for mercy. You can do it. You have the power. And then maybe you can tell everybody the TRUTH. Clearly you know what's REALLY happening. So keep on kicking him. I want to see blood here. Kick the little tyrant who made you go through all of this. And bash him over the head for me! I know you can do it. Together we can destroy all evil. Only a total idiot would have ever followed that creep. I can't even look at the ocean after seeing those asinine videos.
Keep up the good work!'
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 15:04:10 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: is this a threat?
Message:
Hi Orlando -
I've been off-line for several days, so I haven't had a chance to read all the posts. You're right that the above is pretty violent, and could be considered threatening. The exact interpretation of what is a 'threat' or not is, obviously, a judgement call that Brian and I have to make ourselves. Anyway, thanks for calling it to my attention and I'll discuss it with Brian.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 20:53:00 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Threat?
Message:
Hi again, Orlando -
After further consideration, I decided the post WAS threatening because it invoked violent action against a person or persons (in this case, M and family). Thus, I deleted it. If anyone else wants to discuss this with me, feel free.

Again, I appreciate you calling this to my attention, as I don't always get to read all the posts.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 22:11:31 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: thanks Katie and sorry Jim
Message:
thanks Katie for the quick response
and sorry Jim for presuming it was you.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 14:57:25 (EST)
From: Fran From Fargo
Email: None
To: Minnesota Housewife
Subject: Now You See Here
Message:
So what's the deal here? How come a Lutheran church can be named after our Blessed Virgin? Now I know them heathen Lutherans use saint names like 'St. Olaf' or whatever, somethin I bet they stole from us Catholics too, but Our Lady? This is a real bad deal, and even that heretic Martin Luther would roll in his grave if he knew. And you know he never wrote 'Away in a Manger' dontcha? Bet he stole that frummus too. I know yer too chicken to use yer real name. If ya did, I'd reportya to the bishop, you bet!
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 15:29:23 (EST)
From: Minnesota Housewife
Email: None
To: Fran From Fargo
Subject: Now You See Here
Message:
Yer makin me angry but I'm doing my yogic breathing and I'm NOT going to turn on QVC. Now aren't you Catholics supposed to be good Christian people?
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 15:32:36 (EST)
From: J.Jahnsen
Email: None
To: Fran From Fargo
Subject: To my new sweetie
Message:
Fran, now don't go getting yourself all in a tizzy about this, remember we have a date for this afternoon, doncha know. Ah've only gots about 20 minutes and Ah don't want to be spending time yapping.
And dearie, can you wear your sheepskin outfit for me today? Ah've had a rough week down at the grain bin and Ah need to let off some steam, doncha know.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 15:39:03 (EST)
From: Minnesota Housewife
Email: None
To: J.Jahnsen
Subject: To my new sweetie
Message:
Well, seeing as I'm a good Christian woman, I'll only say that you sure didn't waste any time before you found yourself a new bun for yer bratwurst, eh?. I don't know whether to pity you or rejoice that I've gotten rid of you, but I see now that you lied to me all those times you said you loved me. And after all those rhubarb pies and chicken pot pies I made you, homemade crust and everything, don't ya know. Excuse me, I have to get away from the house before I turn on QVC, I'm trying to stay clean and sober from my cable spending addiction. GOODBYE! .
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 15:53:58 (EST)
From: J.Jahnsen
Email: None
To: Minnesota Housewife
Subject: To my new sweetie
Message:
yer the one who said yer buns couln't take my sausage anymore, it was too much for yer, doncha remember?
Listen dearie, don't ya fret none, if ah've got anything left over after my visit with Frannie, ah'll be sure to stop by.
Do ya still have that moose outfit ya used to wear?
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 16:17:13 (EST)
From: Minnesota Housewife
Email: None
To: J.Jahnsen
Subject: To my new sweetie
Message:
No, dearie, your sausage is a Vienna Sausage, one of those tiny toddler size deals. I was always too polite to tell ya that. As fer tha moose outfit I always wore it just to please ya, ya big lug! I lit it on fire at the church bon fire last week, it almost burned the church down!
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 18:28:00 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Katie and Brian
Subject: If Maharaji threatens me?
Message:
Is it a threat? My all-time favorite was his threat at the 1979 Ashram meeting in Kissimee FLA. 'You know, you can never ever in your life leave the ashram.' Maharaji You Asshole! There that feels better. Thanks for your comments and clarification Katie and Brian and support John and others.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 22:53:27 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: If Maharaji threatens me?
Message:
That is so scary that he said that. I was roommates with a woman who had recently left the ashram. She used to lay on the sofa and suck her thumb. I would have been banging my head against a rubber room wall if I'd ever been in the ashram & had done that 'total surrender' deal.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 23:29:31 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: That's the beauty of the shram
Message:
They had rubber walls. We were under strict orders not to tell any community premies, but I think they suspected something was up. Get this Helen, I knew a guy who used to ask me for money, as house treasurer so he could buy tape. Uh... okay. So I later discover that he is using the tape to strap his penis to his thigh so he won't have an erection during meditation. So what am I supposed to tell him he can't have any more money for tape! Jesus God Almighty as Imus would say.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 23:33:42 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: That's the beauty of the shram
Message:
Now here's the best part. That guy became an instructor. Let's see who am I going to bring next week.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 23:39:16 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Didn't it hurt when he took
Message:
the tape off? I can see all you men of the forum cringing at the thought. Oy oy oy...ya know ya gotta strap those suckers down, they're always betraying you just when your on the verge of surrender! Did he wear a hair shirt, too?
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 23:50:11 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Didn't it hurt when he took
Message:
No hair shirt, he had a custom made barragon that he literally strapped himself into. I can't remember how he did it exactly, but it was oversized real rugged and once in you couldn't move. This is killing me laughing so hard i can hardly type remebering this.I had him strap me into it one time quite a rig. Hold the tape please.... I hope he isn't reading this cause he is a beautiful guy. If he is 'I love you man!'
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 00:14:12 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Didn't it hurt when he took
Message:
Yes, the room with the rubber walls was the one each ashram premie had to file into to have interviews, I mean interrogations, with people like David Smith, Anne Johnston, John Hampton and Ira Woods. Nutty people each one of them -- people who should never have anything to do with counseling or directing human beings. They might be good at coordinating potatoes.

Zac, I was at that Kissimmee ashram meeting in 1979, but I don't recall M saying that specifically. I remember in the ashram meeting in the satsang hall in Miami in 1980, he said that moving out of the ashram was like 'moving next to a cesspool.'

I had an ashram roommate who just bypassed the tape and went straight to attempted castration. Why not do the job right?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 08:04:44 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Didn't it hurt when he took
Message:
Yeah It wasn't really funny, some counseling was in order. I just wish there were some older sane reasonable people involved back then. And one of the many reasons I'm done with the trip, once I work some of this shit out, is that 20 or so years later the collective intelligence has barely moved up one IQ point and I'm not going to be a party to anymore nonsense. More details later.

On that quote I could have the event wrong. I remember an ashram premie and myself riding in a van on a trip listening to the tape. We both heard that and looked at each other like 'holy shit'. He may still have it. We stay in touch once or twice a year.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 13:26:28 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Didn't it hurt when he took
Message:
I don't doubt he said it, Zac. I remember the general tone of the ashram meetings Maharaji held, and it was clear that moving out of the ashram wasn't an option, in the Lord's definite opinion. I never heard him say to leave it you didn't like it, or anything like that, and the 'cesspool' comment really stuck in my mind, with the vivid imagry. This is one of the greater atrocities of Maharaji. He pushed this system to keep people in the ashram, which caused many people to waste years of their lives, and then he dumped the ashrams. And when they got dumped on the street, these people had to start over, and many of these ashram premies were socially and emotionally, stunted, and certainly stunted career-wise, with negative consequences happening in their lives as a result.

Actually, I think there were some 'sane' people involved, and if you talked to them as people they would honestly say they didn't like what was happening. But they weren't supposed to do their own thinking. They, also, were supposed to surrender and be a vessel through which Maharaji worked. And there were a lot of insane people as well, and the ashram premies, especially the more meek and sincere ones, were so vulnerable that these people could have a field day laying their trips on them. And since Maharaji never gave a shit about the ashram premies, nor any of the premies really, that filtered down and many people got abused.
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 20:46:15 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Didn't it hurt til I hit the
Message:
Streets. I left the Ashram before it closed, but I had nothing but the rags on my back. I got lucky though, a community premie called the ashram the day before I left and needed someone to work with him for a day for $25, which I happily did. I'd given over all funds til this point. No travel money, I wasn't even given a sandwich. $25 fucking dollars I earned myself after 4 fucking years working the whole time. No time spent coordinating nonsense.

Actions speak so much louder than words.

You can talk a great game Guru,
write a great poem,
you can bully almost everyone around.

But the day has come,
When it's no more fun,
Cause the bully has been put in a squeeze.

He feigns confusion,
pleads ignorance,
Oh what did I do to deserve this.

Let me get really humble,
I'll get up from this stumble,
And while I'm at it I'll pick something up.

Time to reinvent,
to evole a bit,
Soon I'll shake these losers off my tail.

But they're nasty people,
stupid basty people,
who have made very hard to close the sale.
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 00:08:44 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Strapped down, strapped on
Message:
Hey, he was just doing what he thought was going to get him closer to the Lord. It's amazing isn't it? He was very dedicated to his Lord. It's amazing how willing people were to give up their sexual lives for GM...I could never get how willingly people moved into the ashram...that was beyond my ken.

I can understand why that guy invented that support baragan. It was damned uncomfortable sitting for an hour. I have a bad back so I always felt guilty doing the techniques laying down (at night my back really aches sometimes) Now I do the techniques a lot in bed while I'm laying down, without any guilt whatsover. It's amazing, that guilt--that you had to meditate a certain way, etc, it's all bullshit!! As if Maharaji is watching us at all times!!
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 00:49:00 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Strapped down, strapped on
Message:
Barragons are standard, albeit esoteric, meditation aids in India. There used in different ways to prop you up, not always the same 4 techniques that we used them for.

You can buy them down the road, away from M, and can see them in Shiva deities (pics of shiva for altars) sometimes.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 00:29:12 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen -read
Message:
Hey Helen, What's a hair shirt?

Kol Tov Luch (All goodness to you)

Jethro
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 16:54:17 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Jethro-read
Message:
Hello there, Jethro. In case noone else has answered this yet, monks in days of old went through different absolutions and humiliations to subordinate their 'fleshly desires' and to build their spiritual faith. The flesh is the enemy of the spirit, after all!! A shirt made of hair would be worn under their robes and would itch like crazy, they would wear all kinds of shit that would scratch, dig into the flesh, etc. Some of them would even whip themselves (thus the term 'self-flaggelation') I only know this from teaching English, I'm no theology expert, maybe Fr. Mickey knows more.

Kinky, eh?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 01:51:47 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Didn't it hurt when he took
Message:
Oy oy oy...ya know ya gotta strap those suckers down, they're always betraying you just when your on the verge of surrender!
Depends on the type of surrender, Helen. Sometimes, I wish I could strap mine UP.:)
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 09:05:34 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Nimrod
Subject: your nimble rod
Message:
Yeah, tell me about it.
Anyone tried any of that viagra?
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 01:36:21 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: John
Subject: your nimble rod
Message:
Well according to our friend Denise, there is something even better...the third technique.
To hear Denise talk about it , it's something like nature's own 'inner viagra'.
To tell you the truth, I feel she's floating a trial baloon there on m's behalf in the ongoing effort to repackage k into something 'sexier'
As far as erections go, I've never tried viagra and I here that vegetables are better for you.
Seriously, for better erections, eat more vegetables. That improves circulation making it easier for blood to get to the penis shaft... so you can get all cocked up to fire away.
John, I'll send you my bill in the mail.
Dr. Nimrod
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 06:25:38 (EST)
From: Us
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: You
Message:
We got a computer to see M's website. And some friends told us about this site.
What a bunch of sad, winging, wankers most of you are.
Nothing interestinmg seems to ghave happebned in the last 25 years.
M gives you knowledge and you give sour5 grapesd.
My dad diead 13 years ago and I hardfly ever think of him.
I no longer hit my forhead with the icecream, I'm to busy lasting.
Us
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 07:03:09 (EST)
From: Trio
Email: None
To: Us
Subject: You & Happy
Message:
Happy.
Are still on line.
I like what us has said and every one else is out'
T
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 07:42:04 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: 'us'
Subject: you too
Message:
I worked my figurative fingers to the bone to bring peace on earth. The con artist who stole the idealism from us is still out there with the millions he made. He and his cronies don't mind because they made their mint. The dead can't complain but I raise my hand in their name. Who are you to critique my/our shattered dream? We have no guru yet we have each other and we have more of the idealism that you helped the guru to steal and destroy from us than you will you ever know of. We have each other. What do you have?
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 07:45:54 (EST)
From: Us
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Runamok's sob story
Message:
l.
A 1400c PowerBook and a 56kps modemj you drippy girl.
Us
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 08:54:50 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Us
Subject: Congratulations
Message:
We got a computer to see M's website. And some friends told us about this site.

You are officially the first premie to admit that you bought a computer, modem, and internet access merely to view Maharaji's web page. I have maintained that online devotion to M would syphon money from premies' pockets, as they unthinkingly follow the lead (lord?) cow across the pasture. You've just confirmed it for me.

Time now being spent staring at Maharaji's videos and chewing his approved cud will be re-directed to online reading. After you've looked at all the pretty pictures on Maharaji.Org, Enjoyinglife.Org, and Premie.Org, you will find yourself drawn back here repeatedly.

Oh sure, you'll swear off it regularly. But let's face it - there's not much clover growing on the other side, is there? If Maharaji's teachings on tape, on video, and in person were REALLY valuable to people then they would have cud of their own to chew in life. You don't have that, and so you are here.

Welcome to the company of the truth. Bite down hard on something worth chewing over. You'll be back.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 12:57:38 (EST)
From: Roger C. Drek
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: *** Best of the Forum ***
Message:
Added Brian's post as Chewing his approved cud to:

click here for the Best of the Forum

click here for Roger's House of Drek
for way off topic stuff
Including the Chronicles of the Red Nighty

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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 22:08:43 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Roger C. Drek
Subject: *** Best of the Forum ***
Message:
Added Brian's post as Chewing his approved cud

HOT DAMN!!! I made The Bigtime!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 07:16:04 (EST)
From: Us
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Congratulations Brian
Message:
Hi sweetie.
What a dumb jerk you are.
We said 'got a computer', you took this to mean'bought'. No wonder you're an ex, you fit the low IQ criteria.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 09:52:49 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Us
Subject: You
Message:
Us:

sour5 grapesd

I may have some of this in the refrigerator if you want any. It's in that veggie section that I haven't opened in 5 years. Everything seems to turn to vegemite if you leave it there long enough.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 10:25:48 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Us
Subject: You
Message:
Us:

We got a computer to see M's website. And some friends told us about this site.

Another 'true premie.' A true premie would not get a computer for any other purpose than to see M's website. Very important to emphasize this. Nice to hear you have friends who use their computers for other purposes.

What a bunch of sad, winging, wankers most of you are.

Thank you for the example of the love and caring you have learned from Maharaji. By the way, what is 'winging?' Just so I'm clear on what the insult actually is.

Nothing interestinmg seems to ghave happebned in the last 25 years.

This is too bad. Is this because you were too busy squeezing your eyeballs to notice? Personally, I thought the fall of the Soviet Union, the development of the internet, and even the reintroduction of the Wolkswagen Beetle were kind of interestiing.

M gives you knowledge and you give sour5 grapesd.

Actually I got knowledge from Mahatma Parlokanand and not Maharaji, and if I had 'sour5 grapesd' I would probably hold on to it because it sounds unique.

My dad diead 13 years ago and I hardfly ever think of him.

This is kind of sad. Did he leave so little impression on you? But then, depending on your relationship with him, and what he thought of you, this might be just what he wanted.

I no longer hit my forhead with the icecream, I'm to busy lasting.

Yeah...right...whatever...Of all the many things I have done with ice cream, hitting my forehead with it isn't one of them. Excellent advice for which we are all thankful.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 10:50:42 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: stop! no don't stop!!!
Message:
All my coffee just came out my nose. I swear what has gotten into you lately? Were you always this funny and I missed it? I think you could make some bucks with this talent.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 12:28:21 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: stop! no don't stop!!!
Message:
God, you all are killing me!! Stop!!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 00:33:41 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: stop! no don't stop!!!
Message:
Well G's mom, I didn't think it was that funny. I mean, it's pretty easy; look at the material we get to work with!
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 12:30:38 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: JW
Subject: You on a roll, Joe?
Message:
I mean, you're just churning 'em out like nobody's business...
Nice one.

(I'll mail you about your visit shortly)
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 00:35:35 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Thanks
Message:
Thank you Nigel. As I said to G's Mom, it's pretty easy with that material.

Hope I get to meet you in April.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 13:16:03 (EST)
From: Roger 'Ice Cream' Drek
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: *** Best of the Forum ***
Message:
I know that I'm breaking all the rules by putting two posts from the same thread on the Best of the Forum page, but this Us character has been a catalyst to some really funny stuff.

What I want to know is if this Us person is for real or not. Nevertheless, you keep coming back, Mr./Ms. Us.

click here for Best of the Forum

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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 02:02:32 (EST)
From: John caldwell
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Garth
Message:
Response to your response is a letter to you, I'm just getting used to this stuff
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 06:49:21 (EST)
From: bog
Email: None
To: John caldwell
Subject: Garth
Message:
Get5 up to speed garth.
BILL SAYS- Garth, start practicing knowledge you fuckwit and enjoy youself! bog
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 01:59:49 (EST)
From: John Caldwell
Email: None
To: Garth
Subject: Response to your response
Message:
Garth,
I harbor no feelings of bitterness towards DLM or Maharaji. I live in Colorado now and believe this or not still practice knowledge. I just feel my leading in life led me to other things, one of which is Mahatma Ramananda in Denver.
He left Maharji at one point and changed his name; members of DLM were holding him hostage in a motel and threatening to take away his passport or Visa rather if he didn't cooperate.I think his old name was Trivinanda or something like that. He was initiated by Maharaji's father Shri Hans, and left because he felt knowledge was not being taught or presented in the true way.
Instead of bitterness I just focus on what is my goal in life and what is it that I want to get done here?Obviously I still believe in the TRUE WORD of God and meditate upon it, not the technique which only is a focal point. I don't accept Hinduism in it's many diverse forms as the absolute truth. I found some of the best people of God(badly put) in Christianity amonst the many hypocrites and pretenders. Good hearted people, many of them who are eager to help others and be a part of the solution. We all know there is much ignorance amongst many.
The point is this! I really didn't open up in my meditations until I started doing service. No not giving money to Maharaji but doing things that helped people, homeless etc. etc. Take a hint.God is greater than Guru even if some think erroneously that Guru is the True God. The Guru is one (if he is true) who can awaken your Soul and connect the consciousness heart and soul to the indwelling God who is love and light. If your cup is filled with bitterness than how can God as that presence of love and light dwell in you or how can you focus on bitterness and experience the wonders of experiencing God consciousness.
I am not a Christian but I am not antichristian. I,m open minded to accept that God is working in many religions, many people, and in many ways.
Remember that dot or mark on your forehead. Those are referred to many times in the Bible. Time will only tell if it is the seal of God or the mark of antichrist.
I'm always happy to speak with old premies and I feel comfortable where I'm at. But I believe in my heavenly Father who was there before inititiation and God who was always with me and, still is.I may even open a website for Satsangs to clear the webs from peoples minds. I haven't been connected with people of knowledge (DLM) for many years. But I believe in moving right along. Service is for the benefit of your fellow man both in his material need and spiritual need. It really helps us to forget our problems and work at helping others through thiers.
The meditation has helped me to harmonize discordancy within myself and is the most natural antibiotic I know of. Forget about the old ego bashing have compassion for yourself. Not narcississitic self love but in the balance. Meditation has helped me to change the karma of the day as it presented itself to me and is always a means to attune yourself with your innermost self.'For in Him (God) was life and His Life was the light of Men' That light is what you want to be connected to.
Happy to hear from you'
forgive, forget, move on with the goals of your life which hopefully still include a desire for God and don't worry about the imposters. I don't I just recognize them and if your heart is right you will have a builtin compass to lead you aright. If the compass is full of dirt then it loses it's magnetism. John Caldwell (write me at my E-mail address if you want, Gao Qui 7 @ aol.com) loeave me your E-mail address if you want.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 02:12:56 (EST)
From: Max
Email: None
To: John Caldwell
Subject: Response to your response
Message:
i think that practice of meditation works with or without a mastere.i don't know if there is a god,but i believe in energies and different kinds of vibration.Us the atoms of a stone are in a different vibration than a plant.so,i think there are many ways to feel different kins of vibrations.if want to feel anger ,there is the posibiliti to fight,if we want to experience fear we can jump in parachutes,and then are many other ways to expierence different things.free will,in general.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 07:25:23 (EST)
From: bog
Email: None
To: Max
Subject: bog to your response
Message:
POEM BY MY BUDDY DAGBUM. You guys is full of shit

WHAT A WASTE OF FUCKING GOOD TIME , THINK ABOUT IT ASSHOLES
YOU THINK U YOU ARE INTELLECTUAL ANALIZERS OF THE WAYS OF MANAKI BUT YOU ARE WANKING IN THE DARK
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 12:18:55 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: bog
Subject: LOL!
Message:
asshole.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 10:11:20 (EST)
From: Garth
Email: None
To: John Caldwell
Subject: Response to your response
Message:
John, I stand rebuked; my original message was, indeed, full of bitterness, and I needed some time to analyse why, after all these years, when I had almost forgotten my relatively brief experiences at DLM, did I feel this anger. My conclusions are as follows;
- after reading of the pain still being suffered by so many people who were or are still involved with M, I began to feel that an on-going evil is being perpetuated here. I had no idea, until I found this Website, that DLM or a version of, was even still in existence, much less that its leader had profited so much from others suffering. I can forgive and forget past injustices, and I have, inasmuch as I hadn't perceived the scale of chicanery going on here. But it's a far different thing to choose to ignore the fact that it's still going on; that is simply abdicating your responsibility as a human being. You spoke of service as helping your meditation; to me, service is meditation, the practice itself enhances your ability to do more service, which, in my humble opinion is what we're here for. To tolerate philosophies like DLM's, which urge exclusivity, isolation, removing one's self from the rest of humankind, is encouraging diviseveness. We're all in this together, as you seem to be very much aware, and, unless we are all saved, no one of us will be. So, I would encourage actively fighting scam's like DLM; I believe in confronting and exposing evil, not turning the other cheek.
- all that being said, I ain't no superhero! Much of what you have said has struck a chord within me;to give you a little of where I'm at nowadays - I was deeply interested, even in my youth, in the different concepts and ways of what I loosely call 'enlightenment'. DLM was one of the methods I investigated then. I have since tried many different types of meditation and spiritual learning. I've never been inclined to organized religion. I have very pronounced views on its advantages and disadvantages and found myself inclining towards more solitary practices, but, like you, my spiritual development has manifested itself more externally as time went on, in personality changes, such as more compassion, empathy, in career choices in public service, better family and friend relations, a penchant for what has been called lifelong learning etc. I've also found a good deal of philosophical grounding through activity in the martial arts, as a kind of moving meditation. I'm not dogmatically inclined, hence my leanings towards Zen, which includes no concept of a deity in its cosmology and have no patience with those who attempt to persuade me with the kind of closed loop belief system that explains everything in terms of itself, although I do accept an exchange of views, whatever the phraseology used.
Lastly, John, I can't forget the imposters and pretenders; they're the ones who manipulate and damage so many of those good-hearted people you mentioned, who litter the pages of this Website and others. We need those good hearts whole and strong and able to discriminate for themselves the charlatans and mountebanks of this world, who are only to pleased to be able to use our ability to forgive to their own advantage.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 12:56:12 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Garth & John C
Subject: Response to your response
Message:
Great post, Garth. I agree with you wholeheartedly about the importance of confronting and exposing evil. I just can't get with this idea that spirituality means always being in a 'high state' and never getting angry or upset about stuff.

You know, I have a real problem when people like John C come here and rebuke us for being bitter, angry etc., as if we are naughty little children who haven't learned our lessons in Sunday school.

John C, there were parts of your post I liked, and I think you are sincere, but please, we are big boys and girls.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 16:25:19 (EST)
From: John Caldwell
Email: None
To: Garth and Helen
Subject: Garth and Helen
Message:
Thank both of you for your responses,
I was not really trying to rebuke, or talk down to anyone.As a matter of fact I agree that something very Evil has been operating in and through the whole movement. It did not get me where I wanted to go. And you know what. I do agree that liers decievers and pretenders should be exposed. I was really only trying to take a positive attitude toward the end of something that did not work for me.
There is a season for all things war included. If we just let Hitler go his way and shrug it off as the worlds karma, oh well let it run it's course, you can imagine how the world would be today.
Judging from the 2 other responses I got I see that knowledge doesn't work for them either.
I have felt waves of negativity rolling through my mind as I started reading the letters and getting involved with this website. I am only sorry that some are focusing on hatred and negativity instead of seeking out the cure to all of that. On the other hand these feelings have to be dealt with not shoveled under the rug.
It is spiritual warfare as far as I am concerned, but still I need to focus on that true place of inner happiness because I believe God truly is the source of that and that he is there. And his name is not Maharaji.
Spiritual warfare against the powers of darkness and the liers, decievers, and imposters of God. And in a way if I can't resolve negativity and let it constantly ruin my inner equilibrium and peace then they win.
What do we as big boys and girls do about this? Am very interested to hear your responses again.
Personally I thought the death of Bob Micheluer crashing into the ocean as we was begginng to expose what was going on was one of the first clues that something evil was going on in the movement. When I saw Maharaji dressed up as the new world commander in a military outfit I realized this movement had something on it's mind other than helping others to obtain enlightenment. hen I learned DLM was stashing an arsenal of weapons and watched the WPC spying on everyone I guess I knew this movement and it's leaders were evil pretenders of a Pseudo spiritual movement that was trying to bring in a new world order. Unfortunately they aren't qualified to be anything except the coming prophesised Antichrist force or part of that.
The new age, the golden age doesn't begin until after the tribulation and the reign of the antichrist. And if DLM and it's components are the best of the golden age I think it's time to migrate to another planet. The antichrist is charming charismatic and has all the answers but his true nature is eventually exposed. And there is the false spiritual branch or aspect as well as the polictical.
So your right Garth, my apologies. However I will continue to seek and stick with the True path as I understand it, not as Hinduism preaches so I can be a happier better soul and that is only going to benefit those to whom I come in touch with in the world.
Take care, write again
John Caldwell
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 16:50:34 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: John Caldwell
Subject: Garth and Helen
Message:
Since you asked:
Not sure I agree that Maharaji is the antiChrist, in some sort of biblical apocalyptic sense. However I do believe he embodies characteristics that are diabolical--you name it, he embodies them: narcissism, lying, greed, claiming the credit for stuff he never did, ripping off people's dignity, etc...
The waves of negativity that you felt or feel here...or the 'stuckness' that you perceive here, I think we would all agree with you that it's not productive to stay stuck in anger or bitterness. I doubt that anyone here goes around in their daily life with a big black band across their chests that says 'I was victimized by Guru Maharaji'. We're all too busy working, raising kids, etc. But this is a safe place for people to let go of that stuff, so what if people want to blow off some steam? Far better to do it here than to let it build up and destroy their insides or relationships, I think.
Some of us believe in God, I sure do, and I do try to live in a conscious state of mind (although by conscious I do NOT mean drugged and sedated by bliss). I'm human so if I'm having a bad day I might gripe about it here and there. I'm pretty tired of spiritual trips that dictate that one must be serene and unruffled at all times. That's not realistic or necessary IMO. It's a great relief to me to think that I don't have to BE God, I can let God be God, and I get to be me, a human being. I no longer believe that we can merge with God, or achieve enlightenment, I believe that's a myth, and the whole concept is no longer desirable to me.It's one big burden I no longer have to carry on my shoulders along with the other burdens of PMS, arthritis, being a mom and wife and working, and trying to be a good person.

Now don't get me wrong, some of those burdens are joyful ones, but if you expect me to be holy and spiritual on some of my worst PMS days, you'd have to be joking. And I take enough primrose oil to choke a horse, I do every natural thing I can to try to be pleasant to people at that time.
If you were to really pin me down to come up with a belief system I'd say the 10 commandments work for me.
I've got to get to the gym--this forum is too interesting, I can't stay away. I didn't mean for this to come out like a rant
Take care,
Helen
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 00:28:17 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rumi... not
Message:
My feet are burning with indolence
All can sense the inertia
My fat toes are throbbing
no holes in my stockings

My feet are like stranglers
And I'm confounded by premies
But I bravely pass wind
To rebuke their approach

I'm at home in the houses
Your futures have bought me
For plagiarized guidance
You think 'I' have practiced

Behind closed doors
Intoxicated with brandy
I stagger about
Too stoned to be dancing

I'm a knave without wisdom
In my world of pigeons

-Glumi
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 01:39:35 (EST)
From: Max
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Rumi... not
Message:
good you go to sleep!what's that,confunded by premies?
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 01:44:53 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Max
Subject: Rumi... not
Message:
Max:

what's that,confunded by premies?

It was 'confounded,' as in 'they're a freakin' mystery to me.' But, 'confunded' works well too.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 01:55:16 (EST)
From: Max
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Rumi... not
Message:
ok. what's the meaning of confounded
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 02:03:12 (EST)
From: Max
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Rumi... not
Message:
well, talkin about the technics.i understand they are old,and they are present in old indian scriptures.Do you think they can take you to experience something,foegetting that M used this technics.
Because i've had intresting experiences,without going to hear M
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 09:23:07 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Max
Subject: Rumi... not
Message:
Max:

I think there is probably something, some innate and significant cognitive capacity, that these techniques (and others) release. This opinion is not universal. It is also nothing that Maharaji can take any credit for, if it exists. He didn't invent it, and he probably doesn't even practice it. About 90% of the Gurus in this tradition were con men, and maybe 10% were good men, though perhaps not saints. There may have even been one or two 'masters' in the bunch, but that would be a level of achievement occasioned by work and effort rather than some magical 'gift' or lineage. It would be difficult to produce anyone of genuine stature within the Indian mystagogue tradition, because there are no ethical teachings that are central to it. Contrast this to J. Krishnamurti, who felt ethics were central to the spiritual path.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 07:42:47 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Brilliant Scott
Message:
Dear Scott,
Your poem is a brilliant expression of dissappointment.
I thank God you are not the master.
PT
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 09:09:14 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Brilliant Scott
Message:
PT:

Perhaps you're just not used to people who actually tell you how they feel? They have to suggest it, obliquely? This poem is -- watctha call -- parody. It is also a more or less accurate description of what's going on. Hard to miss if you're not in the clouds. I am disappointed in Maharaji, not because he didn't turn out to be master, but because he didn't even turn out to be decent. Just a run-of-the-mill con man, or what they refer to in India as a 'thug' (pronounced 'tug'). As for whether the poem is brilliant..., you're probably wrong there too. Conversational hyperbole is just part of the lifestyle of premies.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 12:39:18 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Great poem! Love it! (nt)
Message:
fhdipdhi
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 20:24:02 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Doubt (from a previous thread)
Message:
JW said: I took what Maharaji said literally… And the 'errors' I'm talking about, which really damaged people, including telling people never to doubt (how can you EXAMINE what is happening to you if you followed that COMMANDMENT?)

You didn't take what he said literally JW... you completely misunderstood him. For me the meaning of that 'commandment' is beautiful: You cannot afford to be in doubt because it causes pain... you must therefore KNOW. By knowing there will be no room LEFT for doubt. And, by the way, Knowledge can help you to KNOW. Man... what a climate of fear you created for yourself to have contorted such a beautiful statement into such a repressive edict. Are you open to that possibility JW? Or is the current version of your 'picture' still beyond repproach?
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 20:37:26 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Doubt (from a previous thread)
Message:
Damn, Nil, you're one fucked up dude. Look, did maharaji appoint you to interpret and translate for him? NO! He said it, 'Leave no room for doubt in your mind'. It's an absolute statement. It means what it says and it fucked up a lot of people.

I was there and watched all the good premies follow that commandment. It was talked about in satsang, and maharaji spoke about it.

Not only that, it was required to not question or doubt maharaji or what he said, BEFORE you received knowledge. Even worse, it was regularly implied by almost all premies and most initiators, that what happened in your life was a response to your doubts in maharaji.

So it's laughable that you would even suggest that any premies ever did any examining of their lives, of knowledge or of maharaji.

You're just a big fat fucking joke, Nil. Hahahahahahahahahaha
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 21:24:54 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Doubt (from a previous thread)
Message:
Not only that, it was required to not question or doubt maharaji or what he said, BEFORE you received knowledge.

Dick, you're a fucking imbicile! Nobody ever said you should 'not question or doubt' before receiving K. Maharaji himself said, 'Come and question it, and get your questions answered. When you are ready and he is ready, you will have Knowledge.' HE NEVER SAID OR IMPLIED, 'Just eat it and don't question or doubt me.' For Christ sake Dick, what planet did you receive Knowledge on? Your head's so far up your ass everything you see has a foul odour to it.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 22:25:02 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: talk to me Nil
Message:
Not only that, it was required to not question or doubt maharaji or what he said, BEFORE you received knowledge.

Nil- On the day you were selected for knowledge you had to convince his stooges you were pretty well ready to jump off a cliff for Maharji or cut off your head or give him you car or something pretty drastic. Now he would SAY 'Guru Maharji doesn't want your cars, Guru Mahraji's got plenty of cars, Guru Mahrji wants your life.' I wish he would have settled for a couple of cars.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 02:10:10 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: talk to me Nil
Message:
That wasn't my case Zac. I just asked for it after a few months... and I got it. And I didn't have to ask a 'stooge'. His instructor treated me with respect and I in turn treated him with the same. I'm thankful he took the time to help me out.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 10:22:03 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: talk to me Nil
Message:
Nil I am truly glad you were treated well. I have thought about this alot and I know that there are some people for whom K and M works great and they are very satisfied. Others have had enough. I know that this page is very sacrileges for a premie and appears to hurt M's mission, but my feeling is that this wouldn't have occurred if M had treated some of these people with more respect.

One huge issue here is with premies who were in the ashram. He just gave the word to shut 'em down. I think national meetings in each country with questions and answers for the people who'd spent years and years would have been more appropriate. An explaination
of some sort. Here's where we are here's why this isn't working here's why I am going to close the ashrams. Instead as I related in a previous thread. When a gentle woman, little over weight, long brown hair, dressed nicely asks him directly about it at a rejoice meeting he shuts her down with 'maybe this isn't for you.' Now that is the correct response for a busy businessman. But If I am going to dedicate my life to someone I need compassion,kindness and mercy, I need a friend. I am writing these words to M as well. Maybe he reads this page. Maybe he'll remember this incident and learn something from it being published on the internet. He may be busy, but we are not things.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 01:17:51 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Doubt (from a previous thread)
Message:
Oh gee, Nil, that's not very nice. Isn't the knowledge making you peaceful? You always seem so upset.

When I received knowledge in 1977, one had to have all their doubts 'removed' before they could receive knowledge. If you felt your questions weren't answered satisfactorily, you didn't get knowledge. It's like the Microsoft Windows agreement before you install Windows. Either you accept the terms of their agreement or it doesn't install... just like knowledge.

Also, I know you're trying to protect your fragile little kingdom of God, but the fact is, when I received knowledge, questioning and examining the Guru was considered a sign of being in your mind.

You really are a liar and a fool Nil. You're pathetic.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 02:05:17 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Doubt (from a previous thread)
Message:
Well Dick I received Knowledge about the same time. At that time one had to be clear they wanted it before they got it. If you call that removing your doubts... so be it. One thing it DIDN'T mean was surpressing your questioning instinct because I questioned a lot. I was even offered the opportunity to receive Knowledge at one point but I declined until I knew for sure it was what I wanted.

You really are a liar and a fool Nil. You're pathetic.

Fuck you Dick... 'kay?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 12:27:43 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Doubt (from a previous thread)
Message:
Just wondering, Nil, what questions did you ask? Want some help getting your foot further in your mouth?
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 20:46:23 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Fuck you, Nil
Message:
How much of this stupid, premie thinking can someone take? It was one thing to sit there with my friend Dave crying about how afraid he was of his mind, how he worried that his doubts would sever the bond he had with his creator. Maharaji's commandment was so clear:

LEAVE NO ROOM FOR DOUBT IN YOUR MIND

Dave struggled with this as did we all. Not well, as you know. The next day he hung himself.

Now to have some complete asshole come here to say people like Dave who took that commandment at face value were 'completely mistaken'.....
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 23:00:24 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: thinking and doubt
Message:
If you always doubt you will never have anything worthwhile.

A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, our perceptions of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which only in their most primitive forms are accessible to our minds -- it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute true religiosity;


BR: 'The attempt to increase scientific certainty by means of some special philosophy seems hopeless, since, in view of the disagreement of philosophers, philosophical propositions must count as among the most doubtful of those to which serious students give an unqualified assent.'

Current research has succeeded in demonstrating almost without doubt that black holes are physical entities.

When you are feeling rushed, rattled and full of self-doubt, step back and look for options.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 08:53:06 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: CD-einstien schmienstien
Message:
The guy was not smart on all subjects.

Chris, the quote where he said people should give up the
notion of a 'personal god' 'that source of fear and hope
which placed power in the hands of priests'
'pursue rational knowledge'

Is flawed thinking and is poorly stated as well.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 07:37:01 (EST)
From: BOG
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Fuck you, Nil
Message:
JIM.
WHAT ALOAD OF CRAP,
DID YOU EVER WONDER WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN TO YOUR SULLAGE BAG OF A BRAIN IF YOU ACTUALLY RELAXED? BOG
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 18:55:58 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Fuck you too Jim!
Message:
Ah, put it away asshole. Your friend took his life... that's sad. But you're playing on my heart-strings so loud you're drowning out the truth. The commandment to me was very clear: KNOW so you don't have to be in doubt. In my opinion you, your friend, and JW TOTALLY misunderstood its meaning. So why the fuck don't you start acting like functioning adults, and take the responsibility on your own shoulders... where it belongs. It won't hurt, believe me.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 20:41:16 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Hey Nil was M a leader?
Message:
In 1981 Maharji said 'watch my back.' What...? for shits and giggles or so we could follow him? It was around the time he said 'When Maharji calls come running.' He's leading we're following. No doubt about it. Now notice I asked was M a leader? If he is not now a leader when did he give up the leadership? Too whom? Are the premies all just drifting now? Does the censorship at ELK come from nowhere? And if he says at some point in the future he is now leader again what are you going to do? Follow him? I think so. And if martians landed in your backyard and said take me to your leader who would you take them to?
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 20:52:48 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Doubt (from a previous thread)
Message:
Look, you're response here is so very stupid that it isn't worth responding to, but I'm feeling like I will anyway just out of spite.

The COMMANDMENT of Guru Maharaj Ji is:

NEVER LEAVE ROOOM FOR DOUBT IN YOUR MIND

It couldn't be clearer what this means. Use the plain meaning of words and you will know. The meaning is not to doubt and to use satsang and meditation to keep the doubts out. It is right in line with the 'constantly meditate' and 'never delay in attending satsang' COMMANDMENTS.

Here is your strained, revisionist, illogical and idiotic interpretation, which apparently only you knew, everyone else, including all the premies I knew, the Mahatmas/initiators, etc., where quite clear on the literal meaning of the COMMANDMENT. Anyway you said:

You didn't take what he said literally JW... you completely misunderstood him. For me the meaning of that 'commandment' is beautiful: You cannot afford to be in doubt because it causes pain... you must therefore KNOW. By knowing there will be no room LEFT for doubt. And, by the way, Knowledge can help you to KNOW.

Can I have a vote here? Attention forum participants. Which of us, me or Nil took that COMMANDMENT literally. Him or me?

The commandmentoesn't say you 'can't afford to doubt' it says NEVER leave room for it in you MIND. Listen dummy -- If the commandment really means you are supposed to KNOW, as opposed to repress doubts and KNOWLEDGE gets you to KNOW -- it was the cult dogma that you CAN'T KNOW KNOWLEDGE WITH YOUR MIND. SO how could you fill up the ROOM in your mind with KNOWING? God, this is stupid.

Moreover, if this is true, that you believed this, which I don't for a minute believe and I believe it is now entirely revisionist to try to explain away one of Maharaji's more stupid edicts, it requires a straining that makes it laughable.

I agree with Selene, Nil and I usually don't say this, but you say the dumbest things.
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 20:57:31 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Doubt (from a previous thread)
Message:
Yeah JW, you took it literally, and Nilbrain twisted and plied it.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 22:00:06 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Stupid, really stupid
Message:
JW before you get your mule brain too tied up in knots trying to disect this clearly controversial statement, let me ask you: If you KNOW something, I mean really KNOW it, can you ever, EVER doubt it? NO!! Of course not. So if Knowledge is given to KNOW something, don't you think by applying it for yourself, the KNOWING you gain will remove your doubts? ...about Knowledge that is. Of course tight-assed stooges like you try to squeeze some idiotic meaning out of such a simple statement. Nobody EVER said or implied to me that it meant 'You must repress your doubts'... fuck, talk about revisionism!!! Remember asshole... I was there too! BTW why don't you jam your revisionist bullshit chant up your ass... that is if your head isn't taking up too much room.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 00:23:37 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: You Are Disgusting
Message:
If you KNOW something, I mean really KNOW it, can you ever, EVER doubt it?

Yes, absolutely. It's called thinking and testing what you know with new information and experiences. And you either modify what you know, you build on it, or you confirm it. This is how you learn, Nil. If you steadfastly refuse to to doubt or question what you know, you don't learn or grow. This might be your big problem.

And if you just refuse to question, you are forced to engage in revisionism of obvious facts, in order to keep from questioning. That might be why you are such a revisionist, Nil, when it comes to the 'dont' doubt' commandment. Your interpretation of that commantment is laughable, as you have heard from several people besides me.

And as for you scatlogical insults, thanks again for showing us what Maharaji and 'that love' has done for you. It's truly impressive.

Tell me Nil, have you brought anyone new to a video event recently?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 02:34:29 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: I couldn't give a shit
Message:
>>If you KNOW something, I mean really KNOW it, can you ever, EVER doubt it?
>Yes, absolutely. It's called thinking and testing what you know with new information and experiences.

Are you really that stupid JW? If you truly KNOW something, it would be a collosal waste of time to continue questioning it. For example, you know you're nationality is American, right? Do you still have to get up in the morning and question or doubt it? Of course not.
And as for you scatlogical insults, thanks again for showing us what Maharaji and 'that love' has done for you. It's truly impressive.
Fuck you JW you pious prick. Stop pretending you occupy some high ground here. 'That love' didn't teach me to communicate with assholes like you... I learned that long before.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 12:53:04 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Bye Nil -- Have a Great Life
Message:
You are just too much fun, Nil. You just dig yourself into deeper and deeper holes.

Are you really that stupid JW? If you truly KNOW something, it would be a collosal waste of time to continue questioning it. For example, you know you're nationality is American, right? Do you still have to get up in the morning and question or doubt it? Of course not.

Well, first, my Nationalisty isn't 'American', from what I know so far, I have Irish, Danish, English, Scotch and Welsh nationalities that make me what I am. Like a lot of people who live in America, I have all kinds of ancestors from lots of places. But listen dummy, I only currently 'know' my nationality back three generations. If I discover tommorrow that one of my ancestors is from someplace else, I will 'doubt' my original belief that I KNOW and change it. Either that, or I can be like you, and just refuse to doubt, despite evidence to the contrary, and just steadfastly hold on to the old thing that I KNOW, even though it's wrong. That's what many of us did as premies, because we followed Maharji's commandment, which he has since ditched, by the way.

Let me also say in relation to the 'don't doubt' commandment, that I was a premie for 10 years and I never once, not once, from anyone, including Guru Maharaj Ji, heard the strained interpretation to the don't doubt commandement that you give it. The Mahatmas, the initiators, the premies, and Maharaji all said that doubts were 'Bad' and not to have them. The way to do that was to surrender, meditate, go to satsang, and if that didn't work, you just 'let them go.' It was most definitely a commandment to ignore your doubts, which made what Maharaji was about a cult, a closed system. The commandment couldn't be clearer given the plain meaning of words. If Maharaji had meant to say what you do, why doesn't the commandment say: 'Know, and then you will not have doubts?' But it doesn't say that does it?

As for the 'higher ground' you are the one engaging in name-calling and people often resort to that if they are losing the argument.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 18:58:09 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Wrong, Joe (Right, Nil!)
Message:
Well, first, my Nationalisty isn't 'American', from what I know so far, I have Irish, Danish, English, Scotch and Welsh nationalities that make me what I am.

Joe,

Your nationality is American. I'm with Nil on this one. In fact, Joe, if you can be wrong about something like this, how can I trust your judgment on other matters?

Nil, please email me, bro'. We've got to talk!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 19:16:04 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And Who Asked You?
Message:
And why should we care? Butt out Rambo.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 20:47:07 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Gerry! Nil! Mel! Somebody!
Message:
Hey you guys,

Are you going to let JW get away with this? Come on fellas. He's namecalling and everything.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 23:03:42 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Gerry! Nil! Mel! Somebody!
Message:
I'm not sure I like this company, but what the hell. Joe, you louse, you weasel, you'd steal flies from a blind spider!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 19:36:32 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Wrong, Joe (Right, Nil!)
Message:
JW,

I'm with Jim on this one. Nationality is normally synonymous with citizenship. I doubt you are a citizen of all those countries. I think you are talking about race. Racial identity is very important, and I have talked to many americans who do seem to be confused about their racial identity. I guess that's the consequence of a melting pot society. My own position is that I was born in England, to Latvian parents. Finding my own racial identity over the last few years has been, and continues to be a difficult journey.

More on this subject later....

John
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 02:21:25 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: To JHB (OT)(personal)
Message:
I noticed in an earlier post that you lived in Leeds ashram. I lived there in 1978-9. Ilived in Spencer place, Wetherby Rd, and I think Purlety Rd. My name then was Eddie Fisher.
Just curious whther we know each other.

BTW I now live in London.

Regards Jethro
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 04:41:08 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: To JHB (OT)(personal)
Message:
Jethro,

I was in Leeds ashram in 1975, but I was still living in Leeds and attending satsang regularly until we moved to London in 1980. Sorry, I don't remember you, but then I don't remember a lot of names from many areas of my life. I also live in London now.

Regards,

John.
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 19:23:18 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Ethnicity?
Message:
Thanks JHB, I stand duly corrected. 'Nationality' I guess literally does mean what 'nation' you are from or the nation you were born in, but I guess I've used it wrongly to discuss my ancestral backgroud or lineage or something like that. It isn't race, maybe it's more ethnicity.
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 20:55:33 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Bye Nil -- Have a Great Life
Message:
Well, first, my Nationalisty isn't 'American', from what I know so far, I have Irish, Danish, English, Scotch and Welsh nationalities that make me what I am.

Don't mean to be picky JW but your nationality is American and your ethnicity is Irish, welsh, whatever. Minor point but since you like to get hung up on the details...

As for the 'higher ground' you are the one engaging in name-calling and people often resort to that if they are losing the argument.

We're both engaging in name-calling JW... does that mean we're both losing? Bye JW.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 00:42:53 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: CONSEQUENCES, NIL
Message:
BTW why don't you jam your revisionist bullshit chant up your ass... that is if your head isn't taking up too much room. (emphasis my own)
Nil, nobody here has to 'revise' anything. This forum is about what m and his cult have been in the past, what they are now, and where we see it going in the future. It's about our experiences as premies and ex-premies, our reflections on these experiences, and the viewpoints gained.
I'm reminded of the quote m used to really enjoy ripping off from buddha, 'when you point one finger at someone else, there are three pointing back at yourself.'
It's becoming increasingly obvious that revisionist bullshit chant is precisely the term that best describes what's happening right now in the land of the pwicks.
Maharaji is a master, a master of denial, and a master of AMNESIA especially when it comes to the record of his mission, a mission that never did have anything to do with KNOWLEDGE, nor does it today. His cult is a cult of idol worshippers, and his mission IS as was so exquisitely stated stated in an earlier post,
the hardcore rape of the logical, thinking part of innocent peoples' minds.
He's a man badly in need of an image makeover. Heck Nil, when you're known to so many people throughout the world as a cancerous personality, an egomaniacal primadonna...well, you know what I mean...your reputation kind of precedes you.
To succeed in overcoming that kind of reputation, m would TRULY have to be an incarnation of the divine. Instead he's an incarnation of slime.
And Nil, we do love ya for reflecting that slime so clearly , so beautifully, and again, for letting us in on how the latest(sorry, I just can't stay away from that phrase ) revisionist bullshit chant from the gulag is shaping up.
Yes Nil,you reflect mahaslimey so well.
You're both a couple of cancerous twisted nazi twits.
Truly, its clear you belong to each other.
Nil, there's a word you used to title a post down in the archives.
The word is consequences
I urge you to think of the consequences of your presence and performance on this site.
The way you're going there are really only two possible outcomes.
Your fuckbrain, nazi dribble will end up burying the one you love, or....he'll end up burying you.
Consequences Nil, think consequences.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 02:47:59 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Nimrod
Subject: CONSEQUENCES, NIL
Message:
I urge you to think of the consequences of your presence and performance on this site.

Are you offering me some brotherly advice Nimrod? I'm touched! Say, what vintage are you? Judging by how out of date you are I'd say about 1975... am I close?
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Date: Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 00:48:30 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: CONSEQUENCES, NIL
Message:
Are you offering me some brotherly advice Nimrod? I'm touched
Not only BROTHERLY ADVICE Nil, but BROTHERLY LOVE, as well.
Say, what vintage are you?
NIL,
THAT IS NOT HOW YOU TALK TO OTHER PEOPLE.
'what vintage are you?'
Only a god forsaken, pukie pwik would express himself that way.
BTW, Nil, you're the only grape in the house,
A BULLSHIT, REVISIONIST, CHANTING GRAPE at that...and one gone sour.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 25, 1999 at 02:53:33 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Nimrod
Subject: CONSEQUENCES, NIL
Message:
I dunno...Nil is showing signs of cracking...wanting out of it all.

I think the same is happening to his friend Void.
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 21:12:14 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Doubt (from a previous thread)
Message:
Nil,

Tell us more about this knowing stuff. What is it you 'know' exactly? And did you know it immediately you received K? If not, how did you interpret the doubt commandment before this knowing came?

While we're on this, could you let us know the true meaning of the other commandments?

John.
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 21:45:35 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Come on, Nil, Jesus Christ
Message:
How many times did Maharaji say, 'Don't listen to your mind.' How many? A thousand, conservatively speaking. Now how the hell is a poor, typical 19-25 year old ashram premie of the 70's gonna figure out the hidden meaning in that? They didn't. No one did. As for the climate of fear, who created that? I know our fearless leader was responsible for it. Ineptitude or intentional? I do not KNOW. But there is NO DOUBT that it happened. And, by the way, if you think in any corner of your mind that you understand something spiritually or have any secret knowledge of something that these ex-premies don't have you had better check yourself in.
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 22:31:57 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Doubt (from a previous thread)
Message:
Nil:

There didn't used to be much room for doubt or for our lives, period because almost every minute was eaten up.

a) morining meditation
b) going to work
c) going to nightly satsang
d) evening meditation
e) meditating as much as we remembered on holy name (technique #3) and nectar (technique #4)
f) pamphleting in the park on the weekends
g) selling magazine subscriptions door-to-door (and subsequently going tits up and steal the patrons money)

Do you remember the time Joan Apter stood up in front of us all and admitted that she often wished the plane would crash so it would be over. She went on to say how terrible the mind was to say such things to her---dah, dah, dah. The fact is that she was so depressed with her unsolvable problem of K, MJ and losing her life that she wanted to die. Do you ever feel that way, Nil?
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 13:18:26 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Doubt (from a previous thread)
Message:
That's amazing that Joan Apter said that!! I'm sure she did wish that--she wanted it to all be over because it was making her nuts. How could we listen to stuff like that and not think she and the whole freaking trip were psychotic?. Because we were brainwashed
The rationalization goes like this
'Sometimes I wish Maharaji would die so that it would all be over, but of course that's my evil mind saying that. My MIND is a completely separate entity from ME, so I am not having these thoughts, my MIND is. The REAL TRUE part of me, my HEART, knows that Maharaji is wonderful and I love him with all my heart, but my MIND wishes he would die.'

NO WONDER THOSE INITIATORS ARE A BUNCH OF FREAKING NUTCASES!!
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 22:09:04 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Doubt (from a previous thread)
Message:
The fact is that she was so depressed with her unsolvable problem of K, MJ and losing her life that she wanted to die. Do you ever feel that way, Nil?

No.
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