Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 39

From: Feb 19, 1999

To: Mar 1, 1999

Page: 4 Of: 5



Liam -:- is time to rest -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 03:27:48 (EST)
__Runamok -:- time to live -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 03:37:56 (EST)
____Liam -:- time to live -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 03:55:28 (EST)
______Runamok -:- time to live -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 04:12:09 (EST)
________Denise -:- time to live -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 09:45:17 (EST)
__________Jean-Michel -:- You can't -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 10:06:57 (EST)
__________red heart -:- Denise -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 10:18:54 (EST)
____________Stevei -:- Lets call Spades Spades -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 10:33:42 (EST)
______________red heart -:- Lets call Spades Spades -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 10:41:43 (EST)
________________Stevei -:- SatGuru/Divine? -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 10:55:22 (EST)
__________________red heart -:- SatGuru/Divine? -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 16:45:28 (EST)
____________________bill -:- red heart divine also? yes -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 21:32:08 (EST)
________________Jerry -:- But not Masters Leaders -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 11:05:45 (EST)
________________Sir David -:- Lets call Spades Spades -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 11:10:53 (EST)
________________Gail -:- Lets call Spades Spades -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 01:50:37 (EST)
__________________Nimrod -:- Lets call Spades Spades -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 16:39:22 (EST)
______________CD -:- Lets call Spades Spades -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 16:37:53 (EST)
____________Denise -:- Donations -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 10:34:52 (EST)
______________red heart -:- Premie Satsang -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 10:46:22 (EST)
________________Jerry -:- Premie Satsang -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 09:37:55 (EST)
________________Sir David -:- Premie Satsang -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 14:43:24 (EST)
______________Jean-Michel -:- Small exemple -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 14:55:25 (EST)
________________CD -:- Small exemple -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 16:41:33 (EST)
__________________Jean-Michel -:- ah ah ah -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 17:05:34 (EST)
____________________CD -:- ah ah ah -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 18:59:10 (EST)
______________________Jean-Michel -:- ah ah ah -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 00:07:49 (EST)
________________Stevei -:- SWISS EV??? JM...Pls REply -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 06:45:47 (EST)
__________________Jean-Michel -:- SWISS EV??? JM...Pls REply -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 09:19:54 (EST)
____________________Stevei -:- EVF and Swiss accounts -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 09:51:52 (EST)
______________________Jean-Michel -:- EVF and Swiss accounts -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 11:04:40 (EST)
________________________Stevei -:- EVF and Swiss accounts -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 11:12:57 (EST)
__________________________Jean-Michel -:- EVF and Swiss accounts -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 11:55:50 (EST)
____________________________Stevei -:- You should write about it -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 12:05:40 (EST)
______________________________Jean-Michel -:- You should write: how? -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 12:20:05 (EST)
____________________________Roger Drek -:- EVF and $100 million in 1 year -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 14:31:08 (EST)
______________________________Stevei -:- Proof Please ..... -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 14:35:02 (EST)
________________________________Roger Drek -:- Details coming soon! -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 03:48:53 (EST)
______________________________JW -:- EVF and $100 million in 1 year -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 20:34:23 (EST)
________________________AE -:- EVF and Swiss accounts -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 11:25:19 (EST)
__________________________Jean-Michel -:- My e-mail and news -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 11:49:38 (EST)
____________________________CD -:- My e-mail and news -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 04:07:33 (EST)
______________________________Jean-Michel -:- Thanks for advice! -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 06:36:49 (EST)
________________________________Selene -:- Thanks for advice! -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 11:25:33 (EST)
__________________________________Jean-Michel -:- Thanks for advice! -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 11:45:30 (EST)
____________________________________Larry Ellison -:- Thanks for advice! -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 12:30:12 (EST)
______________________________________Selene -:- Thanks for advice! -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 12:33:58 (EST)
________________________________________Jean-Michel -:- Premies hidden agendas -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 13:30:44 (EST)
______________________________________Jean-Michel -:- Thanks for advice! -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 12:46:55 (EST)
________________________________CD -:- for sure -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 20:05:31 (EST)
__________________________________Selene -:- for sure -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 20:12:42 (EST)
____________________________________CD -:- small change -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 23:17:50 (EST)
______________________________________SElene -:- small change -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 11:38:37 (EST)
______________Erika -:- Donations -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 15:06:58 (EST)
________________Rick -:- Donations -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 18:51:07 (EST)
__________________Nil -:- Donations -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 16:27:30 (EST)
____________________Selene -:- Donations -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 16:41:25 (EST)
______________________Nil -:- Donations -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 18:04:16 (EST)
________________________Selene -:- Donations -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 18:20:33 (EST)
__________________________Nil -:- Support -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 20:51:36 (EST)
____________________________JHB -:- Support -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 21:09:28 (EST)
______________________________Selene -:- Support -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 21:14:50 (EST)
________________________________Bobby -:- Support -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 21:56:08 (EST)
____________________________Jethro -:- Support -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 00:53:29 (EST)
______________________________tj -:- Support -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 18:26:33 (EST)
________________________________gerry -:- Support -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 21:10:21 (EST)
________________________________Jethro -:- There's a hole in my bucket -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 01:57:23 (EST)
________________________JW -:- Donations -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 18:34:35 (EST)
__________________________Nil -:- Reality check -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 21:19:29 (EST)
____________________________Nimrod -:- Reality check??????????? -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 02:28:07 (EST)
____________________________JW -:- Reality check -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 02:43:56 (EST)
______________________________barney -:- I love this Nil guy! -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 05:04:04 (EST)
______________________________Nil -:- Reality check -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 20:02:16 (EST)
________________________________JW -:- Reality check -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 20:36:23 (EST)
__________________________Jethro -:- Donations -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 01:00:59 (EST)
____________________Rick -:- Donations -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 19:38:14 (EST)
______________________Bobby -:- Donations -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 21:11:09 (EST)
______________________Nil -:- Consequences -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 19:09:22 (EST)
______________________Nil -:- Donations -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 19:23:22 (EST)
________________________Rick -:- Donations -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 20:00:45 (EST)
__________________________Nil -:- Donations -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 11:59:55 (EST)
____________________Robyn -:- Donations -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 19:53:00 (EST)
______________________JW -:- Bravo, Robyn -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 20:02:29 (EST)
________________________Robyn -:- Bravo, Robyn Thanks honey (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 20:47:01 (EST)
__________________________Selene -:- hey Robyn -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 20:54:35 (EST)
____________________________Rick -:- hey Robyn -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 21:10:23 (EST)
________________Jim -:- sound like a lobster trap -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 23:24:17 (EST)
__________________JW -:- Visa -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 13:03:49 (EST)
__________________Nil -:- sound like a lobster trap -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 16:46:36 (EST)
________________JW -:- Donations -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 13:11:29 (EST)
____________Sir David -:- No silence within, mate -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 10:50:43 (EST)
______________CD -:- No silence within, mate -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 15:37:38 (EST)
____________barney -:- rh, get real, follow the money -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 14:04:39 (EST)
____________hamzen -:- Denise/bleeding heart -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 18:21:36 (EST)
__________Robert -:- time to live -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 16:33:17 (EST)
____________JHB -:- Let's face It Robert.... -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 21:30:04 (EST)
__________Gail -:- Times haven't changed much! -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 21:12:26 (EST)
__________Passing thru -:- time to be careful Denise -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 01:10:30 (EST)
____________ham -:- time to be careful Denise -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 03:37:06 (EST)
______________Passing thru -:- Of course Ham.. -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 02:10:02 (EST)
____________Jethro -:- time to be careful Denise -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 04:30:22 (EST)
______________Sir David -:- time to be careful Denise -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 07:08:14 (EST)
________________Passing thru -:- time to be careful Sir David -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 02:28:32 (EST)
______________Nimrod -:- time to be careful Denise -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 14:09:55 (EST)
________________Jethro -:- Excellently put (NT) -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 14:49:46 (EST)
______________Pasing thru -:- time to be careful Jethro -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 02:17:36 (EST)
________________Jethro -:- Premies go away from me please -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 05:00:46 (EST)
__________________Passing thru -:- Jethro pulease -:- Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 07:12:39 (EST)
____________Jerry -:- time to be careful Denise -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 11:38:59 (EST)
______________Zac -:- No worry's Denise -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 17:44:24 (EST)
________liam -:- time to live -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 15:43:15 (EST)
________caroline -:- time to live -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 15:58:09 (EST)
__________Jethro -:- time to live -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 16:14:29 (EST)

Stevei -:- Where is Joan and Garry? -:- Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 19:16:59 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Where is Joan and Garry? -:- Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 20:36:31 (EST)
____Bobby -:- Where is Joan and Garry? -:- Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 21:09:25 (EST)
______chr -:- completely off topic -:- Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 21:17:54 (EST)
________JW -:- I Got It, Thanks (nt) -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 20:45:41 (EST)
______Runamok -:- Where are M. and Ram Dass? -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 00:58:50 (EST)
________Bobby -:- Where are M. and Ram Dass? -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 02:45:04 (EST)
__________Runamok -:- Where are M. and Ram Dass? -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 02:56:11 (EST)
__________CD -:- Where are M. and Ram Dass? -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 15:42:21 (EST)
______Stevei -:- Garry,Sitaram,Saf -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 04:16:57 (EST)
________CD -:- Garry,Sitaram,Saf -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 15:45:38 (EST)
__Jethro -:- Where is Joan and Garry? -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 02:10:24 (EST)
____Bobby -:- Where is Joan and Garry? -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 02:28:44 (EST)
______Runamok -:- Where are Joan and Garry? -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 02:41:47 (EST)
________Helen -:- Way off topic to Run -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 03:04:16 (EST)
______Jethro -:- Where is Joan and Garry? -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 03:01:46 (EST)
________Jean-Michel -:- Where is Joan? -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 03:18:21 (EST)
__________Gail -:- Did you buy into Joan's plan -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 21:19:17 (EST)
____________Jean-Michel -:- Did you buy into Joan's plan -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 00:27:34 (EST)
________Stevei -:- Mr BihariSingh -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 07:36:57 (EST)
__________Jerry -:- Mr BihariSingh -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 10:58:36 (EST)
__________CD -:- Mr BihariSingh -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 15:51:13 (EST)
____Stevei -:- ELK Site? -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 04:08:40 (EST)
______Runamok -:- ELK Site? -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 04:13:08 (EST)
______mira -:- ELK Site? -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 07:52:03 (EST)
________Runamok -:- ELK Site? -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 12:05:49 (EST)
__________Maria Torres-Evans -:- ELK Site? -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 12:11:50 (EST)
____________Runamok -:- ELK Site? -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 13:52:50 (EST)
______________:Maria Torres-Evans -:- ELK Site? -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 14:02:15 (EST)
________________ham -:- ELK Site? -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 18:34:43 (EST)
__________________Maria Torres-Evans -:- ELK Site? -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 04:38:54 (EST)
________________Kabir -:- ELK Site? -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 14:53:23 (EST)
__________________Nanak -:- ELK Site? -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 16:04:09 (EST)
____________________Kabir -:- ELK Site? -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 16:44:39 (EST)
______________________Nakerred Nanak -:- ELK Site? -:- Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 01:11:15 (EST)
______CD -:- ELK Site? -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 15:54:03 (EST)

Rick -:- The Best of... -:- Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 18:19:57 (EST)
__Helen -:- The Best of... -:- Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 18:28:42 (EST)
__Roger Drek -:- There now! Read & Rate It -:- Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 19:45:16 (EST)
____Rick -:- There now! Read & Rate It -:- Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 20:14:36 (EST)
______VP -:- Someone find the Cheese Post.. -:- Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 22:40:49 (EST)
________Roger Drek -:- The Cheese has been Posted -:- Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 02:50:13 (EST)
__________VP -:- Thanks, Rog-nt -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 15:02:29 (EST)
______John -:- Wow! such kind words! -:- Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 21:10:21 (EST)


Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 03:27:48 (EST)
From: Liam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: is time to rest
Message:
would be very nice that every body could be in peace,would be very nice to stop the lies,would very nice to take time and rest.What do we need.I understand that you,the ex-lovers(that would be the translation in english),don't want to drink of this glass of water.It looks dirty,i can understand that.But maybe ,just maybe,the water inside could very clean.And there is a lot of people that likes that water.So i think that is perfect if you don't want to drink it.but why trying to convince people that maybe really want it, to not to drink it?Any way,if you want to talk about others people lifes,please ,try to be a little more objetive or more cientific.talk anything you want,but don't forget that in some way you are using the same 'face of the coin' that i underestand you don't like.I hope there will be the day that there will be no divisions of any kind.,of these are this people and those there are the other people.I believe that no one side has the truth,the only thing that i believe and i want is that i want to rest,with you ,the ex ,the others,the non-ex or what ever.Life is short and i just want calm,don't you?Peace for you all!!you deserve it.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 03:37:56 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Liam
Subject: time to live
Message:
If you don't think we should convince others that M is a bad scene, then why do you think you should convince us that we shouldn't be doing any convincing?

Go rest, then. We're alive.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 03:55:28 (EST)
From: Liam
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: time to live
Message:
do what you want,sure.I just believe that both extremes are not objetive views.i'm not trying to convince any body,i'm just wrting what i think,like you.Isn't this forum for that?
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 04:12:09 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Liam
Subject: time to live
Message:
The old Mirage is a bummer and then some. I can bring more peace by warning people about him then by being mellow about things that are not mellow. We do try to be objective. That's WHY it is such an argumentative forum. When you see on the news that some country is having a big debate in their parliament, it's because the country is a democracy and it's allowed or even encouraged. We're trying to get to the truth.

Make any sense?
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 09:45:17 (EST)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: time to live
Message:
I have a few things on my mind.

One is that really, if you think about it, times have changed and probably the most anyone has to lose at this point is money. It seems many of you had wasted years and did some heavy service and gave what little money you had (more in some cases) , but now that scene just doesn't exist.

From my personal experience, K has been one of the best things in my life besides my family. I will never ever have regrets about receiving K and would recommend it to others even. I guess I would warn not to give money. The reason I always did was so that M could keep up the work, but if he's really duping us and most of it lands in his pocket, that really bothers me. I was thinking, though, that there may be a way to investigate this for myself anyway. Since EV is a non-profit org., my guess is that records of income and expenditures may be available to the public by request. I may look more into this.

Robert, a premie, had earlier suggested that I too easily am convinced about M. But, regardless of all the allegations on this web site that may or may not be true, there are some things I have seen with my own eyes that I can't deny. Mostly the web page that M made denying that he has ever been a leader or figurehead. I know for myself this is not true. I own some old magazines (from the 70's) and have tapes of early music, so I know what was said then. Why would M have to lie so blatantly about this? It bothers me most that he would even lie in the first place, because I can't tolerate liars. My children know that they get in much more trouble for lying than telling the truth about the misdeed. If M lied so blatantly about this, how am I to trust him?
What am I supposed to think now about someone I looked up to so highly?

I really wouldn't have had a problem if he would have said that there were mistakes made in the early days and that's why things have changed, instead of denying things.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 10:06:57 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: You can't
Message:
K and would recommend it to others even. I guess I would warn not to give money. The reason I always did was so that M could keep up the work, but if he's really duping us and most of it lands in his pocket, that really bothers me. I was thinking, though, that there may be a way to investigate this for myself anyway. Since EV is a non-profit org., my guess is that records of income and expenditures may be available to the public by request. I may look more into this.

My dear Denise:
you're still a bit naive.
I don't think there is a way to participate in EV (you'll have to in order to receive k & afterwards) without giving money to m.
Of course EV is a charity & non-profit, but through various systems money still gets from EV to m.
Maybe we should start again a discussion on this. There are several threads about it in the archives.
Maybe someone will finally make a permanent page, or rather a section, about this.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 10:18:54 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Denise
Message:
You sound like an honest and sincere person. Look up the word figurehead in the dictionary. It means nothing -- nothing but a symbol. So forget that word. No matter what you read in old publications, you will never find Maharaji saying he wants to be nothing but a symbol.

Leader. There is also a difference between a Master and a leader. Think about it. If he was spending his time being a leader, he
would have no time to be a Master! He started out with so much 'pre-delegated' to others, especially beginning out so young. Others made so many decisions, and yet he was still able to do the work of a Satguru or Master, because 'leading' is not what it is about. A subtle difference perhaps, but a significant one.

Also, it is silly to entertain the thought that 'all the money' goes into Maharaji's pockets. Have you thought about how much money it costs for his plane to travel throughout the world all these past years, the costs of renting the halls, etc.?

People see what they want to see, and hear what they want to hear. Me, I want to see his divinity, and I love to hear his satsang, his words, which help me and save me so much -- and I love to hear both the music (at times) and the silence (at other times) within.

I think it would be interesting for Maharaji to define the what he means by 'a leader,' because this seems to confuse a lot of people. And for the same reason that he alludes to: that others have always wanted to make him into whatever THEY wanted him to be. Unfortunately, clarity, like common sense, is still uncommon. At least on this web site.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 10:33:42 (EST)
From: Stevei
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: Lets call Spades Spades
Message:
Look lets call a Spade a Spade..I was the first here to point out that attacks on M's personal behaviour without proof is not cool...just gossip....

BUT RH..how do you explain this:

'Come to me I will give you salvation, Give me the Reigns of your Life and I will give you Peace. I have come many times before, but this time with greater Power then ever before...' When the Lord comes...human beings who are fools dont recognise him.....

Well how do you square this up with not being a Leader or a Figurehead....

Maharaj Ji has gone from being a Lord, to a Master and then to a Teacher....

Is he or is he not the Lord...and if not ...why did he claim himself to be one ...in open and in public
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 10:41:43 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: Lets call Spades Spades
Message:
Hi Stevei, Well, I don't know about you, but to me a Lord, Master, Satguru, Savior is not a leader. A leader is something else. The actual mechanics, if you will think about it, of what a leader does is quite different. I personally believe he IS a Divine Teacher/Master/Satguru. (Another definition for 'Sat' is 'Being,' and 'Being' is where it's AT.) To me, just because he doesn't talk about 'who' he is much anymore, doesn't make him any less what he is. It is obvious to me that he is a lot more concerned about spreading Joy than he is about his 'image.' And that's the bottom line, really. He is True, Sincere and Capable. Just what the sincere seeker needs in a 'spiritual guide.'
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 10:55:22 (EST)
From: Stevei
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: SatGuru/Divine?
Message:
Sat is the hindu word for Truth....Satguru is 'True Teacher or Teacher of Truth'.....What si Divine about M?
Is he not a man like you and me....why Divine him....
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 16:45:28 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: SatGuru/Divine?
Message:
He is a man, and he is also gifted with a special Divine mission in his life, not at all, in that sense, like you or me. What he has shown me and how he has touched my life is truly divine. For others who don't see or experience it that way, they can never understand. They don't want to. What he has done for me is nothing less than divine. If that is not your own experience, then that is not your own experience. I can only speak for mine own.
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 21:32:08 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: red heart divine also? yes
Message:
I agree red heart, so, why don't you tell your friends and
family and quit teasing them?
YOU can be the one they thank right?
Why not?
If he a man like you say, what's the difference if you do it
without the hinduism and other issues/problems/errors?
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 11:05:45 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: But not Masters Leaders
Message:
Well, I don't know about you, but to me a Lord, Master, Satguru, Savior is not a leader.

Thanks for the laugh, red heart. Your beyond good sense.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 11:10:53 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: Lets call Spades Spades
Message:
Oh the slippery, soapy and terribly evasive words of a cult member! And where do they get it from? The slippery, slimy and contradictory words of the cult leader (sorry, he's not a leader). You won't get a straight answer from a pwik.

Is Haharaji the Lord God Almighty in human form? Well he's a perfect teacher (my arse!) and soooo lovely, loverly wubberly dubberly. Guru Maraji, you are my only light, you gave me direction, the way is clear and bright and I lo-ove you, I lo-ove you, I lo-ove, my Lord.

You showed me the secret, hidden deep inside, brighter than a million suns. oh how can I begin to tha- ank you, to tha-ank you, to tha-ank you, my Lord.

Sorry about that but I just had a flashback. Is Haharaji the Lord. Is he my arse! Is he a slippery confidence trickster who tells big porkie pies. Yes sir-ee! And there's not one jot of indication that he's the Lord God Almighty. And the Lord spake, (oh no, I'm going into the Rev John Hammond-Smyth mode now, look what you've made me do!)
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 01:50:37 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: Lets call Spades Spades
Message:
Hi Red Heart:

You said, 'I personally believe he IS a Divine Teacher/Master/ Satguru. (Another definition for 'Sat' is 'Being,'and 'Being' is where it's AT.) First, let me say that I appreciate your honesty as to whom you believe MJ to be.

What is the difference between your definition and that of a figurehead or leader? Oh ya, I know. God appoints LOTUs. People promote themselves as leaders. However, how can we be sure that MJ is the chosen one? Imagine! The new pwicks don't even get to know that their Lord is here.

He is the front man, bag man, sole heir to the throne and the recepient of far more than he deserves. He promoted himself as the ONE. He demanded our attention, devotion, and trust. You know he did. Now he is lying by he did no such thing. He is insane if he believes his zombies will swallow his latest ejaculation.

Note that you called MJ's position in the Divine Cosmos a BELIEF. Where did you get this belief, Red Heart? Could it be that we all grossly exaggerated MJ and K in those early? We convinced each other that it was all true. The bigger the fairy tale the more we loved it. You are stuck in MJ's playpen of make-believe. This peurile thinking is making a lifer out of you.

Believe in BELIEF. It works wonders. It enables people to wrap their heads around just about anything.
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 16:39:22 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Lets call Spades Spades
Message:
He is insane if he believes his zombies will swallow his latest ejaculation.
Hey Gail, why do you think its now being called 'disSEMINation'?
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 16:37:53 (EST)
From: CD
Email: webmaster@cdickey.com
To: Stevei
Subject: Lets call Spades Spades
Message:
>Well how do you square this up with not being a Leader or a Figurehead....

Is the debate different than the debate going on in 1972?
Sounds the same to me.

CD
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 10:34:52 (EST)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: Donations
Message:
Yes, I have thought about how much money it takes to travel, etc. and that's why I have donated to EV every year since it was started.

I've just seen some inconsistancies that bother me. I'm still not saying I'm convinced, but at this point I'm very skeptical, as I was before I even received K. It was not M that convinced me how good K was, for me it was K that convinced me how good M was. I never heard a word out of M's mouth (live or cassette, there were no videos then) until I had K for at least a year and a half to 2 years, all I heard was premie satsang.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 10:46:22 (EST)
From: red heart
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Premie Satsang
Message:
I had never heard Maharaji speak before I received Knowledge either. I had read a few quotes and heard a few quotes -- but the few quotes I heard were pretty powerful. And the satsang I heard from premies was effulgent with a spirit of Truth and Enthusiasm which my own heart could not deny. But then after a while, I started noticing more and more premies giving so-called satsang that did NOT make me feel good at all. And I mostly quit listening to anybody but Maharaji -- except in the rarer instances when what they were saying felt inspiring. This is the first thing that satsang, real satsang, taught me: when it touches that chord in the heart that thrills to its touch, then it is right. Otherwise, I chuck it.
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 09:37:55 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: Premie Satsang
Message:
And the satsang I heard from premies was effulgent with a spirit of Truth and Enthusiasm which my own heart could not deny.

Wow, I never heard getting a rush called THAT before.
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 14:43:24 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: Premie Satsang
Message:
Red heels/heart said:

'But then after a while, I started noticing more and more premies giving so-called satsang that did NOT make me feel good at all. And I mostly quit listening to anybody but Maharaji'

Funny but I always found the opposite to be true. I became more and more disenchanted with Maharaji's irrelevant utterances and could only relate to what premies were saying. But then I am obviously not one of the chosen ones and am blind to the sheer magnificence of the words of the Lord.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 14:55:25 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Small exemple
Message:
I guess any premie know of the Swiss EV foundation.
100s of millions go every year from individuals & EVs to the EVF.
EVF pays for travel expenses, INCLUDING payments for the jet that's own by whom?
The EV Foundation DOES NOT own the jet, but pays for it.
If this is not cheating every law, what is this?

This is only an example.
Valid for everything else.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 16:41:33 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Small exemple
Message:
>100s of millions go every year from individuals & EVs to the EVF.

Of what? Pesos, rubles?

>The EV Foundation DOES NOT own the jet, but pays for it. If this is not cheating every law, what is this?

Its called leasing.

CD
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 17:05:34 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: ah ah ah
Message:
You're a bit naive too my friend.

The jet is owned by a company, whose share holders are Premapl & Marolyn Rawat.
The EVF is paying for Mr & Mrs Rawat's jet.

This is braking every law.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 18:59:10 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: ah ah ah
Message:
>You're a bit naive too my friend.

Lay out the details then.

>This is braking every law.

What law?
Be specific.
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 00:07:49 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: ah ah ah
Message:
This has been discussed again & again, it's in the archives, I think you know it.
It only deserves a permanent page, & I hope it's going to be here soon.
M's protection systems are childish, everybody involved in EV does know it. And I've been in that position myself long enough to witness it. And was a part of the reasons I resigned. Too much lies, and cheat ,and deceit, I didn't want to be associated with this any longer.
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 06:45:47 (EST)
From: Stevei
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: SWISS EV??? JM...Pls REply
Message:
What is ths Swiss Ev foundation JM..I am really curious..what do you know and why did you resign..and what are these 100's of millions...I think you ought to us to divulge what you know..

Regards
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 09:19:54 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: SWISS EV??? JM...Pls REply
Message:
IF you're asking these questions, that means you haven't been involved in EV since a very long time.
The EVF has been created in the 80s to support m's jet's operation. Which is extremely costly as you can imagine.
This has been explained in lenght in many old threads ... and really deserves a permanent page.
Maybe sombody is already working on it ...

I resigned in june 1997, and stopped watching the videos a few months later.

Do you have any idea of what costs a Gulf Stream 4 ? and it's operation ? and who owns it, if it's not EV, obviously!

Only the premies can buy such a BS!!!
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 09:51:52 (EST)
From: Stevei
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: EVF and Swiss accounts
Message:
I know about EV ...but from a distance not from an insider...I was more involved with DLM....

But you say that EVF is a Swiss foundation...what evidence do you have that 100's of millions are stashed into their accounts...I know what a Gulfstrame costs...and I was familiar with the fund raising in 87-88 for this jet....

But I dont know of any funneling of funds to EVF in Switzerland...perhaps you could give details here...what do you know...this is very important....
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 11:04:40 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: EVF and Swiss accounts
Message:
There is no funnelling to Switzerland.

The public part is very much legal.

What's hidden and NOT public is the books of the EVF !

Cause the EVF DOES NOT own the jet.

Now you can of course imagine the rest, given m's habits and 'needs'!

And not only 'imagine', there is enough evidence. I hope IRS will seriously look into this one day, but it's easy to imagine that m's company owning the jet is located on some Pacific island where investigation is not possible.

What would be very revealing would be to see where the EVF's money goes!!

EV & the BM are so proud of them, why don't they publish the books? They might have to, one day....
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 11:12:57 (EST)
From: Stevei
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: EVF and Swiss accounts
Message:
As a recent insider what do you know about EV's operation say in France....were you in the inside...you said you were disgusted with what was happening....would love to hear more...I mean was it:
Fraud
Or you just had bad feelings

or what?

The books will not ncessarily reveal anything at all...If there was money laundering...you know someone gives you cash donations...that does not have to go into any books of account...it is just placed into some accout somwhere and fialy find itself into ten to twenty other accounts...no one will find it....

But if M was doing this kind of thing...he would have to have pretty good support team who would be in on the job..I dont mean Premies...but lawyers, accountants etc...

I would like to know if there was anything spcific that made you leave...or just general things...
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 11:55:50 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: EVF and Swiss accounts
Message:
But if M was doing this kind of thing...he would have to have pretty good support team who would be in on the job..I dont mean Premies...but lawyers, accountants etc...

HE HAS hundreds of 'volunteers' dedicated to this!

Writing about my journey and what's going on in EV would take a book, I don't have the time.
The most important issues have been exposed in details, you should go through the archives ...

I mean was it:
Fraud
Or you just had bad feelings


Both of them, and manipulation, like in the 70s.
As the premies are not inspired so much by their own 'experience', there is again a lot of group work going on to 'inspire' those 1000s of naive people. Like in any business.
I hate this in a so-called 'spiritual' organisation.
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 12:05:40 (EST)
From: Stevei
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: You should write about it
Message:
It is really important to write about it...otherwise we are just guessing...I have been out of touch with the organisation for many years...kind of out of date 'knowledge'...understand the pun?
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 12:20:05 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: You should write: how?
Message:
OK, you and many other exes are in the same ignorance I guess.
The only solution would be to have all this on permanent pages,
which is a big business!

I've been working on this (and other exes too) for quite a long time now, and there is a lot more to come.
As I told you, you'll learn a lot in the archives.
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 14:31:08 (EST)
From: Roger Drek
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: EVF and $100 million in 1 year
Message:
I cannot reveal my source because my staff is working on a major expose of one of the major players involved in EVF, but we have information that EVF took in $100 million in just one year in the early '80s.
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 14:35:02 (EST)
From: Stevei
Email: None
To: Roger Drek
Subject: Proof Please .....
Message:
More details please....
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 03:48:53 (EST)
From: Roger Drek
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: Details coming soon!
Message:
My staff of reporters is working on the project now. I'll be travelling to Switzerland this weekend just to check a few things out and then stop in Amsterdam for a little more checking to make sure we've got the facts correct.

But, I gotta tell you that this would be so much easier if I had my own corporate jet with transoceanic range. And I can't tell you how uncomfortable I get when I have to put my butt down on a toilet seat that other people have used before me. And the cognac on commerical flights, even in first class, is simply dreadful. In fact, I have a theory that it is cheap vodka with a dash of molasses.

We'll break the story on the Forum and point you to the page at the House of Drek.

click here for Roger's House of Drek
for way off topic stuff
Including the Chronicles of the Red Nighty

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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 20:34:23 (EST)
From: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Roger Drek
Subject: EVF and $100 million in 1 year
Message:
Roger, just to let you know, I never heard anything back from the 'major player,' for obvious reasons. So, Roger, I think you can go ahead and divulge the information about the 'major player' and the $100 million, which is still displayed as plain as day, and he is still as bald as ever. I can't wait. I'd be happy to write some kind of introductory paragraph if you like, Mr. Drek, but I don't know how to do any of the technical stuff, and you seem like a genius when it comes to that, so fire away.
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 11:25:19 (EST)
From: AE
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: EVF and Swiss accounts
Message:
Hi there Jean-Michel. I wanted to email you but can't find your email address. Could you either email it to me or leave it here. Thanks.

Regarding Maharaji's finances etc. Was the thread about all that on Forum 3 or on the previous forum 2? If anyone knows, it would save me a lot of time.

The most popular topic on The truth about Maharaji web site is, you guessed, his extramaritial exploits. Now human nature being what it is, isn't that a surprise!
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 11:49:38 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr
To: AE
Subject: My e-mail and news
Message:
Here it is.

I'm into moving the EV-DLM Papers to a new location, without these endless Geocities banners.....
It will be on in a few days, still a few details to check.

The Geocities site will stay on for a while, and point to the new site.
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 04:07:33 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: My e-mail and news
Message:
>I'm into moving the EV-DLM Papers to a new location, without these endless Geocities banners.....

Can't you afford $20/month for a permanent site?
How is somebody going to believe your stories about $100,000,000

Do you have a car at least?
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 06:36:49 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Thanks for advice!
Message:
I really can't believe you're for real! Are you?

I'll tell you about my site's story:
I'm not a specialist at all in all this, and when I started it, I had no idea what I was going into, believe me!
The more I digged into that stuff, the more came out, I've received a lot of help, finally got a big stuff in my hands,
and I'm not over with it!
I didn't know ANYTHING about making web pages, using an editor or HTML.
I guess I've learned something here and developped some new skills.
I've learned now how to deal with FTP, and my new site will be online anyday, just working on some details.

Believe it or not, I've got a car (VW Golf), a motobyke, and lots of other stuff.
And my Internet provider (in France) now offers me 10 Megs for free, without nasty banners, for my personal pages.
We'll see if it works fine for the people connecting from the US.
And if Mr Rawat does not intend to sue the whole planet for defaming him and his organizations.
IF it doesn't work, I'll have to pay for these 20$ a month. No hurry.
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 11:25:33 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thanks for advice!
Message:
Hi JM
heh, glad to hear you aren't destitute. Can you believe that guy? Looks like some of the sicky sweet veneer is starting to wear off.
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 11:45:30 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Thanks for advice!
Message:
I can't understand how this guy's working!

I've seen so many weirdos amongst the premies, maybe I've been one myself, nothing surprising, when only part of your brain's working!

I'm still lacking some brain's parts myself very likely!

I don't know....
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 12:30:12 (EST)
From: Larry Ellison
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thanks for advice!
Message:
Pardon my intrusion, but why don't you ask Mr. CD, MSCE, if he will host your page on his server?
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 12:33:58 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Larry Ellison
Subject: Thanks for advice!
Message:
JM would run the risk of having everything that was posted be a whitewashed version of whatever came in ala enjoylifewhileyoustick yourtoungueupyournose.org
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 13:30:44 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Premies hidden agendas
Message:
That remind me of something I couldn't bare with in EV.

Most of the involved premies, doing so much service, have their own hidden agenda (I had mine too obviously). That's what comes with 'service', that's what makes everything's so weird in EV, and part of the reason the BM gets so pissed at times.

And CD's obvious one is that he likes the Internet, helping out his friends etc.

I'm afraid the BM will be tired of you soon, or your service coordinator will talk to you ....
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 12:46:55 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Larry Ellison
Subject: Thanks for advice!
Message:
Hey, that's a good idea!

I'll give him a ride in my car, house him at my place, let him play with my new video studio (BTW I might soon have some video shots on my website), whenever he'll come to see m in France ..... if the BM dares coming here again, which I seriously doubt.

That would be unfair.
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 20:05:31 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: for sure
Message:
>I really can't believe you're for real! Are you?

Sure I am!
Whats hard to believe?
The only time I have been in Paris is when I was hitchhiking around in 1972. I went to the Brussels program in 1989. Followed by a few days in Amsterdam.

>I didn't know ANYTHING about making web pages, using an editor or HTML.

Hey, there sure is a lot of Claris Home Page crap at the top of your HTML. Besides that, you've done a good job on your pages. Congrats!
It seems odd for an ambitious fellow like yourself to be wasting time on a low budget web site. Reminds me of that Kinks song: 'Low Budget'
Or that other one: 'I wish I could fly but I can't even swim'

>Believe it or not, I've got a car (VW Golf), a motobyke, and lots of other stuff.

Sounds good. If you start complaining I won't feel sorry for you.

Here is a nice Einstein quote for you:

'The finest emotion of which we are capable is the mystic emotion.
Herein lies the germ of all art and all true science.
Anyone to whom this feeling is alien, who is no longer capable of wonderment and lives in a state of fear is a dead man.
To know that what is impenatrable for us really exists and manifests itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, whose gross forms alone are intelligible to our poor faculties - this knowledge, this feeling ... that is the core of the true religious sentiment.
In this sense, and in this sense alone, I rank myself amoung profoundly religious men.'

Cheers,
CD
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 20:12:42 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: for sure
Message:
I think it is rude for someone in the computer profession to
look down on someone in a different field trying to create a web site.
Ditto for your previous comments about JM's finances. How shallow. If he were broke, which he isn't, it would be from years of being a very close, ie initiator, or that guru of yours.

You are being snotty.
What a surprise.

JM if you need tech support with a human side to it, try
someone who doesn't follow the dual masters of BM and
Bill.
I can help.
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 23:17:50 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: small change
Message:
>JM if you need tech support with a human side to it, try
someone who doesn't follow the dual masters of BM and
Bill. I can help.

You were on the Compuserve OS/2 forum weren't you.

Whats the URL of your web site? I'll take a look.

>I think it is rude for someone in the computer profession to
look down on someone in a different field trying to create a web site.

That would be rude.
I wasn't looking down on JM's HTML competence. It was the fact that he wasn't pitching in any coins to get off the freebe Geocities site. The people who run this site had the sense to set up something with a more professional tone. If JM had asked me a tech question I would have given him a decent answer. Certainly Brian has good advice on setting up a show at a reasonable cost.
We are not talking $10K a plate dinners here are we.

CD
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 11:38:37 (EST)
From: SElene
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: small change
Message:
No way was I on ANY OS 2 stuff. Wouldt go near it. THEY insisted
I have a Pentium/NT box this year, but my other experience
is with UNIX.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 15:06:58 (EST)
From: Erika
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Donations
Message:
Denise,

I've had, and enjoyed, Knowledge for a pretty long time, and I would like to offer a bit of advice, if I may. Practice KNowledge, and if you like it, continue. Listen to Maharaji, and if he inspires you to keep focused on what's beautiful and true and satisfying in your life, let it help you. Don't worry too much about what other people say (with Knoweldge and without), because they're not you and they don't know what's true for you. If you want to give donations to support Maharaji's work, and that feels right to you, do so. If not, don't. Do whatever you do (family, work, community, friends) as consciously and lovingly as you can.

That's it, hope it's useful,

Warmly,

Erika
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 18:51:07 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: Donations
Message:
Listen to Maharaji, and if he inspires you to keep focused on what's beautiful and true and satisfying in your life, let it help you.

And as that battle begins, the things get even more intense. And if that faith is not there, if that faith is not completely in Guru Maharaj Ji, you're going to fall in so many fragments that you wouldn't be able to count them yourself. You will run right out of count. Right out of it. You will go beyond zillions, billions, everything.'? --Maharaji
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 16:27:30 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Donations
Message:
So what's your point Dick? Do you have a clue what you're talking about, or better still do you have a clue what HE was talking about? Do you think you might be taking something out of context in an attempt to promote fear? Dirty... So Dick, what IS your motive for offering such ready advice to Denise? Is it really because you care so much about her? Are you really going to be there for her just in case the advice you are giving her isn't right for her, and she spins into confusion? Just how much responsibility are you willing to take for her life Dick? Are you going to tour the world inviting her to come and listen and take the clarity she needs. Are you going to arrange for 3 to 4 video presentations a week to help her on an ongoing basis? Are you 100% sure you know what's best for her? Come on Dick... let's see how YOU spell A-C-C-O-U-N-T-A-B-I-L-I-T-Y!
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 16:41:25 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Donations
Message:
Why does anyone need to be accountable for her life? She can take care of herself. She doesn't need Rick (sorry Rick) or the videos or the 'events'. If people NEEDED those things, they would flock to them, what are you implying, that she'll waste away and die without them? That Rick will help her think independently and that will hurt her somehow?
I try to stay away from posts like yours but you say the dumbest things!
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 18:04:16 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Donations
Message:
I try to stay away from posts like yours but you say the dumbest things!

Maybe what I'm saying isn't dumb so much as you really don't make much effort to understand it. I'll restate it for you as simply as I can. What I asked Dick was first, what is his motive for offering advice to Denise... does he really care about her or is his advice primarily self-serving. And second, is he willing to take responsibility if the advice he's giving causes pain and confusion... remembering that this is somebody who was quite content practising Knowledge before she ran into you guys. I'll answer for you Selene just to make it REALLY simple for you. His motive is TOTALLY self-centered, and he's not going be anywhere near her if her life crumbles as a result of his advice. That's why I ask where the hell is the accountability.
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 18:20:33 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Donations
Message:
Oh thanks Nil for enlightening me. Sorry I wuz too dum to understand you.

Come to think of it I had heard about Rick, he gets em all confused and disoriented then does all sorts of perverted SELFISH things to them, and over the internet no less!

Say,
How many letters does M answer to premies in pain? How many house visits? To poor premies I mean?
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 20:51:36 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Support
Message:
How many letters does M answer to premies in pain? How many house visits? To poor premies I mean?

Don't know. As many as he can I suspect... when he's not flying to their cities to speak to them in person, and producing videos to help clarify about Knowledge. Selene, faith is required for this to work! He has to work WITH you, and as a student. That has been a stated agreement from the start. If you can't muster some faith, well... go cry about it on the internet.
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 21:09:28 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Support
Message:
>> How many letters does M answer to premies in pain? How many house visits? To poor premies I mean?

> Don't know. As many as he can I suspect....

Nil,

Do you know anyone who has ever had a direct reply from M to a letter? And a home visit??????

John
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 21:14:50 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Support
Message:
There have been people who posted here that they never got a
reply. Maybe they didn't have enough 'faith'
I love that one. In our corporate environment it's now called
'trusting the process'
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 21:56:08 (EST)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Support
Message:
The last programs I went to with Maharaji were in the early
'80's. (Except for a program in NYC a year and a half ago). I remember the puny question and answer sessions and the lack of adequate response from Maharaji.

I've always been strongly interested in real personal expression and secretly applauded those courageous enough to directly ask Maharaji the real questions to his face. I can't recall hearing an answer from Maharaji that was emotionally fulfilling. As far as Maharaji's lack of adequate response, I used to think perhaps it was some kind of translation problem with Maharaji, or some kind of lila. Now I think it's evasiveness or uncaring.
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 00:53:29 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Support
Message:
'That has been a stated agreement from the start. If you can't muster some faith, well... go cry about it on the internet.'

That's exactly what makes premiedom just another religion like the ones prempal likes to dis.
It used to be 'experience first, then believe'...but now it is the otherway round.

You see the REAL premies have become exs because they DO follow their experiences. Try working that one out!
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 18:26:33 (EST)
From: tj
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Support
Message:
Faith starts with first having followed your heart, and not your wild-eyed fantasies, to the source of your clarity. It means continuing to go to the one you have faith in to get the clarity you will undoubtedly need. It means not throwing in the towel when you get a little confused. And it means believing in what you follow, and following what you believe in. To have faith rooted in the call of the heart is one of the noblest things a human being can acheive.
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 21:10:21 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: tj
Subject: Support
Message:
Faith starts with first having followed your heart, and not your wild-eyed fantasies, to the source of your clarity. It means continuing to go to the one you have faith in to get the clarity you will undoubtedly need. It means not throwing in the towel when you get a little confused. And it means believing in what you follow, and following what you believe in. To have faith rooted in the call of the heart is one of the noblest things a human being can acheive.

Oh god, tj this was so so beautiful, it gave me a stiffy. Oh how I hope yer a woman folk. It was so clarity fulled and Faithful. Yes faithful. Now allow me to share my experience with you. Well, not WITH you or anything but also you can share it. Or something. Am I reaching clarity here?

I followed my heart until I reached the land of clarity and then I continued on to the One whom I had faith in oh great guru maharoonee and the came to the river where I stripped off my towel and, standing naked before my Lord, throbbing with bliss and joy and faith, I threw the damn thing into the water. Then I faithfully rooted around until I heard the call of my noble hard and acheived one of the noblest things a human can acheive in this life. It was sooo beautiful. God bless you tj, for reminding me of that. I feel so, so, so WILD EYED, in my heart of course.

Hey it makes as much sense as what you said...
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 01:57:23 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: tj
Subject: There's a hole in my bucket
Message:
'Faith starts with first having followed your heart, and not your wild-eyed fantasies, to the source of your clarity. It means continuing to go to the one you have faith in to get the clarity you will undoubtedly need. It means not throwing in the towel when you get a little confused. And it means believing in what you follow, and following what you believe in. To have faith rooted in the call of the heart is one of the noblest things a human being can acheive.'

If prempal still had 'ministers' in his relion you would be excellent.
hansji said something like 'knowledge without faith is dry, faith without knowledge is blind', sounds impressive doesn't it?.

So let's see now, in order to have a non-blind faith, I need the experience of knowledge.
In order to have the experience of knowledge I must come to the master.

Hmmmmm so I must have faith in the master before I can experience the knowledge, but how can I have faith with out knowledge? Oh I know believe in tha master.....

There's a hole in my bucket dear liza, dear liza.
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 18:34:35 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Donations
Message:
Well, first Nil, I believe Denise was asking for advice and comments. She is actually starting to think about what the hell she is doing. That's very healthy, even if she decides she wants to remain doing whatever it is she's doing. That's up to her, and I'vs got to give her credit to being open to examining her life, because it isn't always the easiest thing to do, and it's quite different than what you are doing, with this following paranoid comment:

And second, is he willing to take responsibility if the advice he's giving causes pain and confusion...remembering that this is somebody who was quite content practising Knowledge before she ran into you guys.

This is the core of it, isn't it Nil? Oh how I remember it well. What if you actually THINK about what is happening to you? What if you get CONFUSED? Oh my god. Better to just never quesstion or doubt anything, never test or discuss what the hell she has been doing for all these years and whether it really makes her happy. That is the core of what Maharaji teaches: fear, like when he said what Rick wrote, or the rotten vegetables, or going to hell, you know how he scared the shit out of us, when it was supposedly the path of 'love.' What a crock.

Did you see The Truman Show? Truman was quite content living in a fake world, until he realized he was! Till somebody had the nerve to tell him he WAS, until he figured it out. And man was he CONFUSED!!! That's what happens when you examine your life and question things. It isn't always comfortable and you might not know for awhile exactly what you do think, but, in the long run, I'll take that over the unexamined, fearful-of-questioning premie life anytime!

Listen, if knowledge is real, it isn't going to dry up and die and Denise isn't going to be thrown into the depths of hell, and her life isn't going to 'crumble' because she dares to examine what she REALLY feels about all this. It's still going to be there, right? Do you really think it's that fragile? If so, what are you doing with it?

I don't think you have any idea what Rick's motives are. And don't be an idiot. What on earth does Rick have to gain by talking to, and giving advice, to Denise. It's what human beings do for each other, Nil. It's called working through things, and I have found nothing better than human interaction and listening to the experiences of others to help me do that. And that's what goes on here, something that doesn't go on at a video event, or any other 'event.'
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 21:19:29 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Reality check
Message:
...I'll take that over the unexamined, fearful-of-questioning premie life anytime!

Just because you lived an unexamined and fearful life as a premie, please don't be so presumtuous as to think we all did. Doesn't sound like Denise does. That was YOUR problem JW... now why don't you own it! Look, a 'fake' reality is created by the mind when it takes external information and pieces it together to create an inaccurate picture. If upon examination you discover that it's fake, why don't you blame your mind! ...it built the damned unreality. You are SO, SO reluctant to take ANY blame for the unreality within which you lived as a premie, and now you blame it all on anything premie-like. BTW I 'work through things' regularly with premies... but not at videos. They are set aside for quiet reflection.
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 02:28:07 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Reality check???????????
Message:
Ah Nil, haven't you forgotten something?
You live in a cuckoo's nest, Nil. You're really not capable of 'reality check'.
Nil, can you explain what the fuck this is all about?
Look, a 'fake' reality is created by the mind when it takes external information and pieces it together to create an inaccurate picture. If upon examination you discover that it's fake, why don't you blame your mind! ...it built the damned unreality.
Oh Nil, such a silly nilly, cheap, dishonest play on words. What a pitiful attempt to play mindgames here.
I believe it is clear to most of us, that the picture created in JW's mind wasn't illusionary, or even 'inaccurate'...a fake reality as you said.
The picture in JW's mind(re his disaffection with m and the cult) WAS AND IS VERY ACCURATE, VERY REAL.
Maharaji is the fake reality. His cult is a world unto itself of fakery.
That's an accurate picture. That's a true picture.
Nothing wrong with JW's mind pal, but where the fuck is yours?
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 02:43:56 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Reality check
Message:
Gee Nil, aren't we defensive. Listen, you can believe whatever you want to. I couldn't care less. And I have no presumptions about what you ever did. I have no idea who you are, nor what you have done. I responed not to what you did, but what you SAID, got it?

Look, a'fake' reality is created by the mind when it takes external information and pieces it together to create an inaccurate picture. If upon examination you discover that it's fake, why don't you blame your mind! ...it built the damned unreality.

This is absolute crap. I guess you still hold on to Maharaji's dogma that the mind is some kind of boogyman and that it is some entity separate from yourself. I'm not surprised you believe that; I'm just surprised you would have the nerve to still say it out loud. It's the duality stuff that Maharaji preaches. It's really destructive, mostly a Hindi philosophy. I had to get away from all of it to realize what a crock that stunted philosophy really is.

You are SO, SO reluctant to take ANY blame for the unreality within which you lived as a premie, and now you blame it all on anything premie-like.

Well here YOU go with the presumptions. You have no idea how I lived as a premie. But to tell you, basically, I took what Maharaji said literally and tried to do what he said, like most of the other premies I knew. Yes, I take responsiblity for doing that, it was really stupid, it really messed me up. But then I have taken responsiblity for that, admitted how gullible I was, and I've worked hard to repair the damage. That's part of what taking responsbility is about.

But then, Maharaji hasn't taken ANY responsiblity for his part, now has he? He hasn't admitted even the teensiest error, let alone done anything to try to repair the damage. Nope. No responsbility at all. And the 'errors' I'm talking about, which really damaged people, including telling people never to doubt (how can you EXAMINE what is happening to you if you followed that COMMANDMENT?), that he was god, that you should SURRENDER to him, that you should dedicate your whole life to him, that you would go to hell if you ever stopped practicing and left, etc.

Tell me, Nil. Do you have any criticism of Maharaji? Can you say one thing you don't like about him or what he's done? Even one? Come on. If you can't, how much have to 'worked through' with premies or without them and do you have ANY objectivity when it comes to Maharaji?
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 05:04:04 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: I love this Nil guy!
Message:
Nil, you're absolutely fabulous! Your ridiculous arguments typify the depth and effectiveness of the brainwashing that Maharaji's cult is so good at. And I see how not too, too long ago I would have said the same kind of stuff.

And, you know, I might even be on your side that meditation by itself might be a good healthy thing. But, it's the whole philosophy of fear and dependence on Maharaji that is sick and dangerous. Saying that Denise's life might crumble is an obvious admission on your part regarding how stricken you are with some unholy fear that Maharaji has given you. And you call that freedom and peace of mind? And he is your teacher?

And then you say that Maharaji arranges videos in each community three to four nights a week and he travels to see you and answers letters and visits premies who are having a hard time? You only reveal how naive and deluded you are in regards to what you think Maharaji is.

First, the premies in the local communities arrange the local videos. Second, Maharaji makes it sound like he is working and travelling all the time, but he isn't. A lot of the time he's just hiding out in Malibu or one of his other residences or vacationing in some exotic paradise like any other rich guy. Answers letters and visits ailing premies? No, I don't think so unless you're one of the big time PAMs or a big time contributor.

Listen, you can still meditate and experience something inside. But you can also be free of the confusion and fear that Maharaji uses to control you. But first, you've got to walk away from him and get a new perspective. You won't crumble, you won't break into a million, zillion pieces, nor will you rot like vegetables. Take the first step. Get away from him. He's fucking with your mind and it shows.
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 20:02:16 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Reality check
Message:
This is absolute crap. I guess you still hold on to Maharaji's dogma that the mind is some kind of boogyman and that it is some entity separate from yourself.

My, look who's defensive NOW. Are you really trying to tell me that you don't use your mind to assimilate inputs from outside into a 'picture' of reality, which you then use as a road map in life? Go ahead, say you don't... I want everyone to see what a narrow-minded reactionary you really are. And if you could agree that you do (which is a lot to ask seeing your mullish tendancy to reject anything sensible that was ever uttered by a premie or Maharaji), are you telling me that your 'picture' is beyond repproach? If you agree to the latter, you will have rejected any pretense of being a critical thinker.
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 20:36:23 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Reality check
Message:
Are you really trying to tell me that you don't use your mind to assimilate inputs from outside into a 'picture' of reality, which you then use as a road map in life?

No, that wasn't what I was saying, but now that you mention it, yes, that's true. I use my BRAIN to do that, not some other entity called 'mind.' Do you? And I'm not at all defensive about that.

By the way, in the vein of calling people narrow-minded, care to respond to the rest of my post?
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 01:00:59 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Donations
Message:
'I don't think you have any idea what Rick's motives are. And don't be an idiot. What on earth does Rick have to gain by talking to, and giving advice, to Denise. It's what human beings do for each other, Nil. It's called working through things, and I have found nothing better than human interaction and listening to the experiences of others to help me do that. And that's what goes on here, something that doesn't go on at a video event, or any other 'event.''

Beautifully put. I think that Nil typifies the premie psyche which doesn't give a shit about others(only 'my experience'), hence (s)he really wonders what Rick is up to.

The begrudgers deserve each other and their esteemed leader...or is it figurehead.....or..eeer whatever.
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 19:38:14 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Donations
Message:
Nil,
First of all, my name isn't Dick, it's Rick. Please call me that.

What I meant by my post was that I was demonstrating that Erika was regurgitating premie cult nonsense. I quoted maharaji himself displaying the doom and gloom he laid on us in the 70's, in response to Erika advising Denise to listen to maharaji.

Obviously, I struck a chord. You got angry. Believe it or not, that's good. Alot of premies couldn't get angry by the time maharaji finished with them. Apparently you aren't practicing very well. Good on you.

Here's the thing... yes I will be accountable to the extent I can. I don't think anything I'm saying or doing is destructive but as JW pointed out, it could be very confusing. And you aren't wrong to ask me that.

My motives in making posts here are self-centered to some extent but not without warmth and caring. And I would back that up with action in situations that warranted it.

For instance, if it became clear that Denise really became unglued and suffered some tangible results from it, I would try to help by offering to communicate by email or phone, or suggesting other sources of help. To tell you truth, if Denise became so distraught that say, she lost her job or her place to live, I'd send her $100 cash money. And I'm virtually broke. So I think it's fair for me to say what I find to be honest and true, because I am accountable.

By the way, my intense practice of knowledge in the late seventies contributed to my neglect in my marriage, that eventually degraded into a divorce. I was the most distraught I'd ever been in my life--near suicide. I was absolutely devastated and confused. I didn't understand how this could happen when I was doing everything maharaji prescribed.

Actually, maharaji's knowledge, in this case, led me to be in a situation where I desperately needed help. I lost my job and had to move out of my apartment. I took my last fifty bucks and went to maharaji's program in San Francisco in June 1981. I listened to his satsang in total emotional agony and then went to the front row and found the guy who could ask maharaji if I could talk to him for five minutes. I truly was on the edge.

The goon I talked to was cold as ice. He was incapable of understanding the kind of suffering I was in. He just rattled off reasons why I couldn't talk to maharaji. I pleaded but the guy just looked through me. I begged but he just vomited up the same old satsang. Finally, he agreed to try to ask maharaji. He went behind the stage, and then came back a few minutes later. He said that maharaji wasn't here for us in that capacity and that maharaji recommends that we just have faith and pray, and practice satsang, service and meditation. I walked away heartbroken.

Listen, Nil... anytime you get in a jam (even though you were pissy and insulting with me) just email me at rtaraday@hotmail.com and I'll disconnect my computer and give you my phone number to call. I mean if you're ever in a jam, and just need an ear to bend.
Rick
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 21:11:09 (EST)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Donations
Message:
He said that maharaji wasn't here for us in that capacity....

Yeah Rick that sucks. You touched me with your story about being on the edge and in emotional distress. I know that place.

I think a mark of a master would be that he would be there for folks in trying situations, such as yourself, personally. Compassion and caring happen on a one-to-one basis and they show up for real when they are happening. Intellectualization, saying it's all 'lila' doesn't cut it when someone is in pain.

To me the spiritual path is about alleviation of suffering. It's coming clearer and clearer to me that that needs to happen on a direct and personal basis.
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 19:09:22 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Consequences
Message:
...yes I will be accountable to the extent I can.

Rick, you and I both know that the extent to which you could realistically help if things went sour would be minimal... 100 bucks does not a disability pension make. As to just how destructive what you are saying could be... well, how much disharmony in the universe are you willing to take on? Indigenous peoples used to walk the earth very softly and out of great respect, sensitive to creating imbalance. Then there is the study of chaos which proposes that the flutter of a butterfly wing in China causes a hurricane in the Carribean. If we could be fully conscious of our actions perhaps we all would act with much more humility and respect... words that apply to me also.
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 19:23:22 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Donations
Message:
Actually, maharaji's knowledge, in this case, led me to be in a situation where I desperately needed help. I lost my job and had to move out of my apartment. I took my last fifty bucks and went to maharaji's program in San Francisco in June 1981.

What did you expect M to do for you... console you? Give some advice on financial management? I ask out of no disrespect for you or what you were going through. He may have had a good reason for why he wouldn't or couldn't see you. Do you know how many requests like yours he received on a daily basis? As for the goon... he wasn't a goon. He was a volunteer with very little training who was probably doing the best he could under the circumstances. BTW thanks for your offer of support.
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 20:00:45 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Donations
Message:
Nil,
Well, you're proposing that I don't say what I know to be true because it may confuse someone and cause more damage than I can repair. Are you out of your goddamn mind? Honestly, you must be joking.

As for what maharaji could have done to help me? He could have given me two minutes of his time, after giving me rotten advice that turned my life sour. I mean, you're suggesting that I can't repair the damage I could cause by what I say, and I'm telling you that maharaji had even less to give me to repair the damage he caused me.

And by the way, the guy I spoke with at that program WAS a goon. And up until that point, I had been a goon. And to tell you the truth, I think you act like a goon.
Rick
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 11:59:55 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Donations
Message:
Well, you're proposing that I don't say what I know to be true because it may confuse someone and cause more damage than I can repair. Are you out of your goddamn mind?

All you KNOW FOR SURE to be true is he didn't give you the two minutes you were demanding of him in SF. Seems like almost everything else you 'know' are conclusions based upon THAT experience. As for advice, what advice did he give you that caused you to mismanage your life? He offered you a way to dedicate yourself to a path of inner discovery... which I'm assuming you wanted at the time. He gave you Knowledge, and an opportunity to participate in his work. YOU took that, and implemented it badly, which apparently fucked up your life. Here's some advice from one goon to another... take some responsibility for the decisions YOU made in life and stop whining.
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 19:53:00 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs!@hotmail.com
To: Nil
Subject: Donations
Message:
Dear Nil,
First, does anyone, including M have any idea what he(M) is talking about. I think not! Dead seeds, sucking vs. licking, rotting veggies, so much of it is jibberish and if you try to listen to the meaning of the words and not the feelings they give you, because you love him, you will find they contradict themselves or just make no sense at all. That or they are so simplistic as to insult the intelligence of the listener.
We just speak our minds here we don't look to promote fear like M did as JW talks about below. Our motivation for speaking our hearts and minds here is to get to the truth of things, there are lots of personal realities but as we hammer things out at least they are displayed for anyone to make what they will of the thoughts and ideas that are written.
What if your advise or M's advise isn't right for Denise or anyone. We each have different things that effect us or ring true to us. That is the benifit in open honest discussion of a variety of opinions, rather than clinging to the party line.
Confusion leads to change or resolve or acceptance. It leads to understanding ourselves further if we let it. 'Confusion leads to growth if you let it.' A quote I saw posted while I was in college.
How much responsibility are you willing to take for Denise's life Nil? How much responsibility is M willing to take, in reality not in words and most important Nil, how much responsibility is Denise willing to take for her own life.
Do you honestly believe that no human being can make it without constant intervention and control by another person, god, meditation teacher, whatever. That is the saddest statement you made in your post. What would happen if the VCR broke and M died. What would happen to your life Nil?
As far as support, I realize there is cut throat behaivor here sometimes but let me tell you I have found overflowing support here and I have read many posts from people stating the same. When someone is in crisis the people here rally around. That has been proven again and again and again.
I don't think anyone knows 100% what is best for anyone but each of us, with input from others we respect and care for can help us learn enough about ourselves to make our own best decisions.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 20:02:29 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Bravo, Robyn
Message:
That about sums it up. Very well said.
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 20:47:01 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: JW
Subject: Bravo, Robyn Thanks honey (nt)
Message:
a'wp9'
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 20:54:35 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: hey Robyn
Message:
Thank you and JW for a voice of sanity. I seem to have put my
irreverent cap on this morning and can't seem to get away from
being sarcastic. Maybe it's the cold I woke up with, maybe it's
the new influx of weird posts here.
But thank you both. Rick I didn't mean it, those things you
did to me on forum weren't all that perverted - not for the likes
of me anyway.
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 21:10:23 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: hey Robyn
Message:
Selene,
They were so perverted.
Rick
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 23:24:17 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: sound like a lobster trap
Message:
Listen to Maharaji, and if he inspires you to keep focused on what's beautiful and true and satisfying in your life, let it help you.

But why should she listen to the guy? Why? Why, why WHY? Who is he? What do others say about him? What's his history? Is he an authority on something? What? How'd he get that way?

Don't worry too much about what other people say (with Knoweldge and without), because they're not you and they don't know what's true for you.

Oh, I seeeeeee. I should have read that sentence first before lipping off like that. Okay, I've got it now. Scratch all that stuff, Denise. Apparently, according to Erika here, what you should do is listen to Maharaji. No one else. Maharaji. Don't ask him any quesitons (don't worry, you can't anyways). Don't discuss him with anyone. Just listen. After all, you're you, right? You're not me and I'm certainly not Erika. No, you better just listen.

If you want to give donations to support Maharaji's work, and that feels right to you, do so. If not, don't. Do whatever you do (family, work, community, friends) as consciously and lovingly as you can.

And hey, if, after you've listened a little more, if you want to send a cheque or give your visa number, what the hell. If it feels right, go for it. But don't forget, do it consciously. You know?

Erika, you premies kill me. Here you are giving all this advice about how Denise shouldn't listen to anyone, just you and Maharaji I guess. Can't you see how lame that is? 'Consciously'? That's rich.
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 13:03:49 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Visa
Message:
And hey, if, after you've listened a little more, if you want to send a cheque or give your visa number, what the hell.

Don't be silly, Jim. Some things money can't buy, but then, for everthing else, there's MASTERCARD, not Visa!
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 16:46:36 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: sound like a lobster trap
Message:
Here you are giving all this advice about how Denise shouldn't listen to anyone, just you and Maharaji I guess.

Jim, you're back. The place just wasn't the same without you. ;-)

My suggestion would be different than what you understood Erika to say. Try this on... Hear with your ears from anyone you want to. But listen to what they say with your heart. And don't let the words of others confuse what your heart is telling you. Words can lie... but your heart never does. There... THAT's probably what a soft-centred soul like yourself was expecting Erika to say... am I right?
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 13:11:29 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Erika
Subject: Donations
Message:


Listening to Maharaji will help you do WHAT, Erika? Maintain your belief system? Help to hold the trip together by just listening to the con-man himself, and isolating yourself from all other input? That sounds like a cult of one, Erika. (Well, I guess maybe two.) And those other people, who don't know what's true for you; I assume you exclude Maharaji from those people right? Because he knows what's good for you right? How do you know that? Why would you listen to him as opposed to anybody else? Because he's rich and puts out videos? Because he has an Indian accent? Because he claims to be a 'master?' Because he used to be god incarnate, but only until 1986?
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 10:50:43 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: No silence within, mate
Message:
If there ever was a more clearer case of Maharaji's devotees just parrotting his words, then surely this is it, red heels.

What's all this 'silence within' stuff? Ever since Maharaji said that it's now being said by premies. There is no silence within. I stopped meditating on the 'SOUNDS within' because I could hear them too much! After just a short period of listening to them they wouldn't go away and I could hear them all the time. This freaked me a bit so I stopped meditating on the sound and eventually it died down again.

No I don't know what these sounds are but it certainly isn't silence. Perhaps now I know that the sounds can be controlled and will go away again after a period of no concentration on them; well perhaps I'll get back into meditating on them again sometime, or not, as the case may be.

But the fact that Maharaji calls it the silence within does imply that he has never meditated. There simply IS no silence in there. I think he doesn't know what he's talking about.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 15:37:38 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: No silence within, mate
Message:
>But the fact that Maharaji calls it the silence within does imply that he has never meditated.

Here you are caught up in one of the rumours.
If you listen to his talks on a video you will find that he does say that many people think there is silence inside but the suprise is that it is not silent.

>There simply IS no silence in there.

You are correct.

CD
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 14:04:39 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: rh, get real, follow the money
Message:
red heart,

you very effectively undermine your argument and destroy any credibility you might have from the git-go via looking up the word figurehead in the dictionary in your effort to revise historical fact that Maharaji, himself, referred to himself as Lord in, admittedly, indirect fashion. Nevertheless, the message was obvious to anyone with half a brain.

And as far as Maharaji receiving personal monetary gains, if you are ever in southern California just drive north on Pacific Highway 1 through Malibu and just past Point Dume and near Zuma Beach and when you pass Trancas Canyon Road starting keeping an eye out on your right, high up in the hills. The largest structure that you see is Maharaji's residence. It's gotta be $5, if not a 10 million dollar house.

Consider that when Maharaji first came to the west in 1971 he was pretty well penniless by his own account. So, how come after some twenty five years or more of being this meek, humble figurehead doing his important work that he got this residence and many others around the world and, yet, the he and EV are always claiming that the organization is going broke and premies need to give more money?

Is it true that EV is always just getting by? Did Maharaji manifest the money for his personal palaces? All that money had to come from somewhere. If the didn't come from premies then it must have come from his inventions, paintings, investments, Amtext, drug dealing, premies' trust funds, etc.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 18:21:36 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: red heart
Subject: Denise/bleeding heart
Message:
Funny isn't it how much of a simpleton he is when writing his poetry, yet when it comes to the slippery side of propaganda he's as slick as an eel. Leader/figurehead does not equal master/perfect master/ god incarnate, perfect master of course is only the master of perfection, guru maharaji doesn't mean guru maharaji but.....

God it makes me sick.

Slip in some concepts that NO-ONE but a deluded follower could feel comfortable with, repeat over & over, voila you have a mantra.

Re the plane & the house. I work in local government, we have a phrase, best value which translates as, value for money & best value for quality work. Private jets costing loads of money, way beyond, WAY BEYOND, what is needed for the amount of flying he does, including gold toilet seats which increase the costs, apart from increasing environmental pollution, REALLY UNBELIEVABLY EXPENSIVE house & lifestyle do not equal value for money, or quality.
I forgot, of course he's only doing this to blow peoples concepts.

He's SO perfect that after twenty five years, for his worldwide satellite event, all he could muster was twenty thousand bums on seats outside of India & Nepal. Obviously the master of perfection.
Only 366 new premies, sorry PWICKS, in the USA last year, well obviously it's the whole of the human race that's at fault.

This from a man with the greatest gift of creation, trying to give everyone on this planet the opportunity of real peace!

Obviously I just don't have the UNDERSTANDING.

Yet here I am seeing him as a complete tosser, yet I'm using these non-secret techniques and they work fine for me. Another little dilemma.
Denise what you've got from knowledge, is what you've put in and been lucky enough to connect to. Give yourself the credit, all he's ever done is allow himself to be an aloof projection mirror at best, and a guilt inspiring perfect leader at worst.
You don't need him but he sure as hell needs you, or your wallet anyway.

And as for being innocuous now, it's not true, I know someone who was getting sucked into the holy triangle with the master. He got onto this site just in time, and realizes how lucky he was. He still meditates, but how shall I say, his perception of his holiness has become a touch more realistic.
Has it not occurred to you, Denise, that you were lucky to escape his clutches early on, which is exactly why your experience had a better chance of happening. Like the practice of every other meditation technique.

Losing a guru can be disorientating, but gaining yourself can be even more liberating.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 16:33:17 (EST)
From: Robert
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: time to live
Message:
Hi again Denise,

Just a clarification. A figurehead is a symbol, an idol, basically a dead icon. Maharaji's never been that and I'm sure never aspired to be that. He's always been quite living and real-time. I'm pretty sure when he says 'leader,' he's speaking in the more political or movement sense and he's also never (even in the most Indian of days) been an 'ok everybody, let's all go this way, march' type-of-guy. There have been people who wanted him to be that and he always rebelled against it. Leader also suggests some sort of impersonal, mass phenomenon and his emphasis has always been on the internal, the individual experience and the heart. You've seen him in action. He's much more subtle than that.

Enough blah-blah. I'd agree wholeheartedly with Erika that you should just do what feels right. I truly don't think M is trying to wiggle out of anything by those statements. He'd certainly never deny being a master, teacher or guide. A figurehead would be insulting and a 'leader' just ain't his style. The title is unimportant. What you feel is not. Now I'm going outside to enjoy a beautiful day away from the computer!

have fun, Robert
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 21:30:04 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Robert
Subject: Let's face It Robert....
Message:
...it doesn't matter what M says, people like you will always find an interpretation that will allow you to continue to worship him. I can remember all the struggles I had over 25 years to interpret what he said and did in a way that would allow me to continue to see him as a perfect master. Rather than stop using my mind, I was abusing it. Anyone who understands basic English who was around all those years when he spoke of how great Guru Maharaj Ji is could not rationally deny that he was the Leader. He made it very clear.

Look, if he wasn't and isn't the Leader, who the fuck is???? EV/DLM sure as hell isn't a democracy or a co-operative.

John.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 21:12:26 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Times haven't changed much!
Message:
Times haven't changed much. MJ is still criticizing family, friends, careers and, ultimately, anything that doesn't put a dollar in his hand. I have come to realize that I neglected my child in favour of MJ. I neglected her as much (if not more) than I would have as an alcoholic or drug addict.

MJ's brand of magic helps people to escape from what's bothering them. By fixating upon him, and seeing him and his K as the true source of our joy, we can abuse those around us. We need not work at family life, etc. After all they are just maya. Only MJ, K and enjoying life (namely travelling to the next cult fest matter).

This brainwashing that you and I have been exposed to does not disappear overnight. You will hear his voice, his words. Many things will trigger the MJ response; we have been trained like dogs. You will realize that a lot of your concepts and opinions have been taken from him; they are not your own.

Use the techniques, but realize that they may not really be exposing the God within. If this is the case, then they have no more credence than a hypnosis regime. Both will put the subject into alpha state.

You don't need to recommend K to others. You can show them in five minutes. The techniques don't give the experience; attachment to the cult leader does. If you think MJ has special powers to enable devotees to experience the HIGH, guess again. Devotees of his brother, Satpal, have the same experience. So do the premies of the African Guru Maharaj Ji.

He really is duping us; most of it lands in his pocket (or in his gold toilette bowls). No need to look any further. I have asked where all the money goes in Canada. NO ONE KNOWS. HAHAHA. Do not discredit things you have witnessed; HE IS A CHARLATAN.

I bought in for 24 years on the sole premise that MJ was the Lord. He projected that image. Christ, I can't stand having a man around for more than a few years. Why would I want to follow a meditation teacher around the world and help to support the trip?

He made a big mistake--he has hurt and psychologically damaged a lot of people. Even one person would be too many.
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 01:10:30 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: time to be careful Denise
Message:
Dear Denise,
A figurehead is 'a person nominally having a prominent position, but no real authority'. Do you think Maharaji is a figurehead for Knowledge? On the contrary he is its ultimate authority.
As for being a leader, Maharaji may lead by example but his whole point is to trust in YOURself, listen to YOUR heart, be guided from within. He doesn't want to lead, he only wants to teach people to recognise and accept their own divinity and trust in that.
My advice to you, is to trust in the experience you have and not in the experience of others.
PT
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 03:37:06 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: time to be careful Denise
Message:
'My advice to you, is to trust in the experience you have and not in the experience of others.'

Does that include you and gm?
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 02:10:02 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Of course Ham..
Message:
Dear Ham,
Absolutely. My experience is the only experience I have. I don't care what others claim to eperience or not experience, the only experience I have any experience about is my own.
PT
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 04:30:22 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: time to be careful Denise
Message:
Oh yes Denise, Passing Thru forgot to say that in addition don't worry abouit the golden toilets, the fact that he has child and women molesters, racists on his staff and does nothing about it.

It's ok because HE is the supreme authority.
Hitler became powerful mainly because people BELIEVED him.

Jethro
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 07:08:14 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: time to be careful Denise
Message:
No, what Passing Through really means is don't believe a word that we're saying here and get back to believing in Haharaji. I don't know why he doesn't just come out and say it.

One thing which following Maharaji probably does long term is to make people inhibited in truly speaking their mind. Although I can't tell for sure since I've not followed him since 1983.

Speak your mind, Passing Through. Tell Denise that we're a bunch of reprobates and that you don't like the way we're turning people off the cult way of thinking. At least that would be honest.
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 02:28:32 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: time to be careful Sir David
Message:
Dear Sir David,
What I really meant to say was, well, exactly what I said. Trust in your own experience. Who cares what other people say? Whether its Maharaji or you or even me. What counts is what you feel. And if what you feel conflicts with what people say, I'd take my felings any day.
PT
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 14:09:55 (EST)
From: Nimrod
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: time to be careful Denise
Message:
Hitler became powerful mainly because people BELIEVED him

If you'll allow me to restate your above qoute,I would put it this way:

Hitler became powerful mainly because people BELIEVED him,
and those who didn't, DID NOTHING TO STOP HIM.

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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 14:49:46 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Nimrod
Subject: Excellently put (NT)
Message:
NT
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 02:17:36 (EST)
From: Pasing thru
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: time to be careful Jethro
Message:
Dear Jethro,
My suggestion to Denise was to trust her own experience, not yours and not Maharaji's.And not because Maharaji is the supreme authority and not because you or I am but because Denise is the supreme authority on what she has experienced.
PT
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 05:00:46 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Pasing thru
Subject: Premies go away from me please
Message:
Well I happen to be a living sentient human being and intend to use all my facuties contarary to which your master would like. My comments to denise about your master's golden toilets and having perverts on his staff can easily be checked out by her. These are areas which priemes who have come here choose to ignore. To me their silence says 'it's ok for M to do anything 'cause he is who he is'. You are all guilty by ommission.
I admit to having little patience for premies at the moment, I am beginning to equate many of you with holocaust deniers.

Jethro
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Date: Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 07:12:39 (EST)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Jethro pulease
Message:
Dear Jethro,
I don't think I have ever thought about golden toilets until your posting.
Descartes 'I think therefore I am' is perfect.
PT
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 11:38:59 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: time to be careful Denise
Message:
A figurehead is 'a person nominally having a prominent position, but no real authority'.

PT, who do you know that ever wanted Maharaji to be that? Don't you find it kind of sad that you're trying to interpret the master's meaning because he's not here to do it himself?

Do you think Maharaji is a figurehead for Knowledge? On the contrary he is its ultimate authority.

Says you. In my book, there's no one ultimate authority at all given the wide range of experiences or lack of that his devotees are having. That being the case, I'd say the only authority on Knowledge is the person who's practicing it. In other words, I'M THE ULTIMATE AUTHORITY ON KNOWLEDGE AS FAR AS IT PERTAINS TO ME, not Maharaji.

As for being a leader, Maharaji may lead by example...

What example is that? The 'get yourself a mansion in Malibu' one? What example is Maharaji setting? You say the damndest things, PT. Do you ever think first?
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 17:44:24 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: No worry's Denise
Message:
Because PT sounds like the Ghost of Christmas past, his voice of wisdom echoing down the hall. 'Listen to me now, be careful ooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh! The mind's gonna get yeah. More fear please, pass the mind control ooooooooohhhhhhhhh! PT What are thinking dude? You think this is your service monitoring the ex-premie page. House father's went out with the ashrams. You're giving me the creeps. Creepy, Creepy, Creepy!
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 15:43:15 (EST)
From: liam
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: time to live
Message:
yes ,it make a lot of sense
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 15:58:09 (EST)
From: caroline
Email: None
To: Runamok and Liam
Subject: time to live
Message:
do you know what premies talk about?about maharaji
do you know what ex-premies talk about?about maharaji
it seems that he is very important of people minds that know him.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 16:14:29 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: caroline
Subject: time to live
Message:
'do you know what premies talk about?about maharaji
do you know what ex-premies talk about?about maharaji'

Well caroline that's the purpose of this site. What people do when they are not on this site is probably talk about other things.

Anyway it's not strictly true. Most of the premies talk about how THEY feel so good and that's all that matters.

You know things like: 'he has given me a wonderful gift, it's not my business if he craps in a golden toilet'.

Exs are usually trying to talk about real things he;s been responsible for. Most premies avoid the whole issue.

'it seems that he is very important of people minds that know him.'

Well he stole and impregnated their minds didn't he?
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 19:16:59 (EST)
From: Stevei
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Where is Joan and Garry?
Message:
Does anybody remember Garry, the first American Premie? I wonder what happened to him and where he is now. He was in India roaming around with an another American guy (forgot his name)...they were two Sadu's Garry and the other...during their wondering they came across this holy man who took a vow of silence...aparently he told them by sign language that the guy they were looking for was no other then GM ...and they found him...well this story was told to me by Garry when he came back from India through London in 1971...

Joan was also travelling wiht Garry from India...and they went back to the States...and the rest is history...

Joan told me that M told her...one day you will look and see my true glory as I am....I wonder what happened to Joan? where is she now...is she still alive????
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 20:36:31 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: Where is Joan and Garry?
Message:
Stevei:

Sounds like you're talking about Joan Apter. I can almost remember Garry's name, but recall his face. Supposedly he sold LSD to finance M's first trip here. There was a thread about 6 mos. ago about Joan. Don't think either are still premies. Seems like Joan lives in Arizona somewhere.

-Scott
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 21:09:25 (EST)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Where is Joan and Garry?
Message:
Gary Girard travelled with 'Sitaram', another westerner with long hair, beard and Indian garb. I first ran into both of them at Ram Lila ground right between Old and New Delhi for Hans Jayanthi 71. I heard from Sitaram that Ram Dass was in New Delhi. I got his address and went to visit him.

Gary and Sitaram didn't impress me much. We called them the super-premies cause they seemed to be on such power trips. There were a couple of show-downs between the various factions of premies.

At the end of India '71 Gary was shaking everybody down for marijuana and hash. He wanted to search everybody's suitcase as they were leaving Prem Nagar. He searched a lot of people but some told him to go fuck himself. Seems like about half the jumbo jet coming into JFK was smuggling. Customs let most, if not all of us, just move on through customs without even a cursory glance into luggage.

Who did impress me was the guy who introduced them to Guru Maharaj Ji, Mouni Baba (silent one). The man had glowing eyes and a beautiful presence. The story I heard at the time was that Mata Ji kicked him out of the ashram cause he didn't follow the rules or something like that.

I heard that Joan Apter is still a premie. Last time I saw her was about 13 years ago at a party.
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 21:17:54 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: completely off topic
Message:
JW,
I have just emailed you. Can you let me know if you receive it, as I have been having some problems with sending of late. Thanks, chr.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 20:45:41 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: I Got It, Thanks (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 00:58:50 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Where are M. and Ram Dass?
Message:
Gee, Bobby. That is just so great that you met Ram Dass. I am really impressed. I think I had forgotten it! And to think, it's only the third time you had mentioned, in passing of course, on the ex-premie forum, or at least the third time that I have read you mentioning it.

Well, it's nice to stay organised (and included assholes like Mirage and Ram Dass in one post).
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 02:45:04 (EST)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Where are M. and Ram Dass?
Message:
I know I don't fit your profile amok, I mean you seem to want everyone to feel and think like you do. Here you twist my intent into your own passionate views.

Rather than engage in personal vendettas like you get into here, I like to hear personal stories and recollections and express, my own. Sometimes I repeat myself. I say what feels good to say and I say it. There are many new people who show up who haven't heard what I have to say.

Don't you repeat yourself on this forum? I've seen you many times express the same points of view. Like how the only ones who post here should be looking for ways to seek vengeance against Maharaji. I'm looking for connections with others in other ways. Obviously I don't connect with you. So ignore my posts. For the most part I've learned to ignore yours.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 02:56:11 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Where are M. and Ram Dass?
Message:
Well Bobby, maybe I should repeat my comments on Ram Dass as the seductress of our soul's demise, but I don't really feel like it, until I start participating in the 'ex-RamDass-supporters-forum' which hopefully is insignificant enough to never exist. However, you seem to think Ram Dass is significant.

What gets me about your post and other posts you have made which are similar, is the overwhelming tone of nostalgia and pride for these times.

Why don't you just keep following the guru if that's how you feel?

Here you go: I see Ram Dass as bearing a share of the responsibility for many of us having fallen in for Miragey, and as such am somewhat sickened by your seeming yearning for the good old days when you met Ram Dass.

You know Bobby, I've been attacked on the street by strangers, AND I also have met some so-called spiritual luminaries. And to tell the tales would be incredibly similar!

PS Newer exes and others reading this post: Maharaji's former title 'Guru Maharaj-Ji' was typically pronounced Goo Miragey.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 15:42:21 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Where are M. and Ram Dass?
Message:
Your historic posts are interesting Bobby.

You are a person who makes this forum worthwhile.
Optimism rules!

Regards,
CD
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 04:16:57 (EST)
From: Stevei
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Garry,Sitaram,Saf
Message:
Ram Das as far as I know is now working with the dying people...you know in these homes...he is doing good work....

The whole trip then was turn in, tune in and drop out...so we were all caught in this wave....It was a wave...and if you had your head stuck out...well ur going to get swept out anyway...

As far as Garry and Sitaram....They both came back from India wearing pink clothes of wondering Sadduhs....Garry cut is hair after receiving K in India...Sitaram..kept his hair and beard...Gary was very vocal and outgoing person...and I think also a ladies man....Sitaram was as quite as a mouse...But Sitaram was so much into his Saddu trip...he split from M very early on in the Game....Very much like Saf who was on the same trip as Sitaram..the main friction between Saf and M was dope smoking which M did not like...

Then there was this other wierdo...Charles Cameron...never met a guy who could use words so effectively...he could have made it as a presedential speak writer...or a southern preacher...
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 15:45:38 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: Garry,Sitaram,Saf
Message:
I am pretty sure I saw Joan Apter at the Pasadena worldwide video broadcast program last year.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 02:10:24 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: Where is Joan and Garry?
Message:
Joan Apter's 'story' is on ELK site.
Is the gary you are referrong to Gary Gerrard. The person whose nose prempal broke with a stick(according to a PAM)?
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 02:28:44 (EST)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Where is Joan and Garry?
Message:
Yeah, that was shown as part of the original *Lord of the Universe* video, I think, the movie before Satguru has come, showing Maharaji on the roof of Prem Nagar shoving a long stick of wood at Gary's nose.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 02:41:47 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Where are Joan and Garry?
Message:
And the stinky DLM rumor mill spun the tune that Rawatt had claimed Gary as the reincarnation of Rama's personal flying machine, another animal devotee. And as such, M would give Gary money and bestow other wondrous rewards for Gary to enjoy as a reward. and M allowed Gary to bypass the usual celibate ashram stuff. And rumors being what they are, M could always deny it and/or claim he had or hadn't said it, according to the politically correct mottoes of the day.

Aren't the lilas of Miragey wonderful? Oh I mean, there's the unimportant yet historically relevant information that you requested.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 03:04:16 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Way off topic to Run
Message:
Run, would you mind sending me a quick email w/the vitamin supplement idea for arthritis.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 03:01:46 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Where is Joan and Garry?
Message:
I was told by one of the other premies there at that time, that prem did break Gary's nose with that stick...and when Gary wimpered prem said 'Would you rather that I didn't touch you?'..

This was lesson in devotion.
What freaks me out is that I was really impressed by this when I heard it(1974).
Anything in the name of devotion eh!!!!
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 03:18:21 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Where is Joan?
Message:
I've received a letter from her, several months ago.
Believe it or not, she's in California, and into selling retirement plans to vintage premies!
From what I understood, she works with groups of them to make them feel good about this issue, and to find appropriate solutions!
I guess I've dumped the letter.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 21:19:17 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Did you buy into Joan's plan
Message:
for your retirement? Is she still following the Lard? I saw her at Amaroo. Did she try to entice you back to the fold?

Anne did say that Joan was dissatisfied a few years ago. It must be hard for her to see what the whole thing has become. It's a far cry from her early days (getting in with the Lard on the ground floor and all). I like listening to her. Remember her parrot satsang?
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 00:27:34 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Did you buy into Joan's plan
Message:
That letter was not destined to me, but to an ex-friend still receiving mail here at my place. I opened the letter to check whether it was something important or not, in order to forward the letter or not, cause she's still receiving junk adds etc.

I guess Joan went through what lots of very involved premies went through wen they fell in disgrace. She's very likely at some distance now, and the BM is a part of her pantheon.
I've heard that story for quite some premies.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 07:36:57 (EST)
From: Stevei
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Mr BihariSingh
Message:
What about Mr BihariSingh....the Lion of Bihar...he was M's body gaurd...constant companion...He was told to eat a Kilo of Ghee by M to test his devotion...poor Biharisingh...had to eat the ghee and swet it out digging the ground...1 Kilo of Ghee is enough to kill a horse..Ghee is rarified butter...the cream of Butter....

What happened to him? was he not sent backto india because of some Mishap?
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 10:58:36 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: Mr BihariSingh
Message:
What about Mr BihariSingh....the Lion of Bihar...he was M's body gaurd...constant companion...He was told to eat a Kilo of Ghee by M to test his devotion...

Stevei, if you know this about Maharaji, how can you stand by him? Any master who would force his devotee to suffer this way is a tyrant and a sadist. This is the sort of thing Caligula would do.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 15:51:13 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: Mr BihariSingh
Message:
>What happened to him? was he not sent backto india because of some Mishap?

A couple friends of mine know him pretty well and have visited him at his home. He came up and had a conversation with one of them at a recent program with M.

He has been at all the M programs that I have attended in recent years in the US. Long Beach ones for example and Miami last year.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 04:08:40 (EST)
From: Stevei
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: ELK Site?
Message:
What is the ELK Site...and how strange that Joan is selling Retirement plans...I guess most of the old premies are on their way out....heheheh
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 04:13:08 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: ELK Site?
Message:
I guess some big shot premies can cash in.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 07:52:03 (EST)
From: mira
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: ELK Site?
Message:
ELK is enjoyinglife.org Check it out.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 12:05:49 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: mira
Subject: ELK Site?
Message:
Gee, is it really the enjoyinglife site? Gee, how would we ever have figured that out?
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 12:11:50 (EST)
From: Maria Torres-Evans
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: ELK Site?
Message:
Well friend, if you were reallymeditating then you would just know. It's sort of inside. Youknowwarrimeen.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 13:52:50 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Maria Torres-Evans
Subject: ELK Site?
Message:
Actually, it's not sort of inside in. It's really on a hard drive functioning as a server. But if you really like that stuff, you can go to a hallmark card display and find a lot of it. Or you can read Kabir's poetry, prob a notch or two better than Miragey's.
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 14:02:15 (EST)
From: :Maria Torres-Evans
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: ELK Site?
Message:
Isn't kabir the guy that M stole his stuff from?
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 18:34:43 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: :Maria Torres-Evans
Subject: ELK Site?
Message:
'Isn't kabir the guy that M stole his stuff from?'

Among a long list of others he's stolen from, Jethro mentioned a good one yesterday, quote from the koran, verbaten I think he said, with gm inserted into the quote.

Anybody who comes from a community of market traders running family firms would be completely at home with gm's work practices, Very oily, slick even, except methinks hes sprung an Exxon Valdez now (spelling anyone?).
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 04:38:54 (EST)
From: Maria Torres-Evans
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: ELK Site?
Message:
Hello ham

I've read Kabir and Nanak. Both of them(as far as I can remember)never mention the name of their master. In the days whenm I read that stuff I always took 'master' not to refer to a person but to an experience that anyone can have.

Still it seems thay have been turned into guru/pm -types by history.

best wishes
MTE
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 14:53:23 (EST)
From: Kabir
Email: None
To: :Maria Torres-Evans
Subject: ELK Site?
Message:
Isn't kabir the guy that M stole his stuff from?

Yeah, that's the cat, M, who's been ripping off my stuff, talking as if its his own. If I had a nickel for everytime he said 'The fish is thirsty in the water....' Sheesh. I'D have a mansion in Malibu! I guess them's the breaks. Here I am in the afterlife, where there's no royalties, and Big M's making a killing with MY material. Ain't that just the way it is... Damn.
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 16:04:09 (EST)
From: Nanak
Email: None
To: Kabir
Subject: ELK Site?
Message:
You nicked the stuff from me ...or was in vice-versa.
People think we were connected in some way....seems they never smoked the real stuff around.
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 16:44:39 (EST)
From: Kabir
Email: None
To: Nanak
Subject: ELK Site?
Message:
Nanak? Who are you that eskimo guy, Nanak The Eskimo? Never heard of you. But if you're getting ripped off by the Big M, too, my heart goes out to you. Have a drink on me. Hic.
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Date: Tues, Feb 23, 1999 at 01:11:15 (EST)
From: Nakerred Nanak
Email: None
To: Kabir
Subject: ELK Site?
Message:
'Never heard of you. '

Boo hoo weep weep.....I mean I know ypu are a few years older than me....but don;t you rememeber when we were walking about our own separate ways and we met and I kiseed your feet and received updesh...you mean you don't remember ME...I gave you vaseline
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 15:54:03 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: ELK Site?
Message:
>What is the ELK Site

Click here for a list of Some Sites about M and Premies
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 18:19:57 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Best of...
Message:
Mr. Drek was recently asking for the all time best post of the forum. John K. once posted a beaut but apparently it's gone from the archives. Anyway, I found this one (also by John K.) and thought it was worthy...

Okay, I am now mounting my soap box, or is it a cloned sheep...anyway The essence of this whole incredible trip was that I believed gmj to be the superior power in person. First a word about the creator...the creator does not care about me, that's ME as in ME. If the creator cared about me it would not have made me lose all my beautiful hair, well almost all of it. And this after I expressly prayed to the creator begging him not to make me lose my hair. So don't tell me about God's love. God does not love me the way I want to be loved. God did not create this creation the way I wanted it. Believe me, it would be very different if it was the way I wanted it. For one thing, there would not be any suffering. Just a minor detail, right? I mean, God and me, we are at opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to understanding each other. I don't understand a creator that creates a creation in which the dominant theme is suffering. I mean I just don't get it at all. So, in my roundabout way I am trying to say that given how weird the creator is, you know, that it creates a world in which we all suffer so much, how unbelievable is it that the creator would come down and not behave exactly as we want him to behave. That is, spend too much on material objects, drink too much, whatever it is that he does that we don't approve of. Mismanage the ashrams, ignore me, make people do mean things to me, etc. Accepting that gmj was the superior power in person meant that I gave up all rights to judging him. Ok, that was my understanding of all that. Now, what happened to me? I gradually came around to realizing that I was in a no win situation. It's just not a fun game playing guru-devotee or creator-creature if the creator can do whatever the hell it wants to you and you just have to accept it. In essence I got tired of the game because it IS a game to pretend that someone else is the creator. But here is the happy ending, for me anyway. Freeing myself from the no win situation of surrenduring my life to someone who never really showed they even knew I existed, has made my life better. My ontology has not been depleted at all. In fact, I believe my ontology had narrowed itself to practically nothing when I was a devotee of the guru. There was only one thing - that was focus on the guru. By getting out of that relationship, my self opens up gradually to include more and more possibilities. So, I have now fallen off my soap box in absolute bliss, I am free!!!!

John K.

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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 18:28:42 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: The Best of...
Message:
That's a great point about the ontology getting wider and wider after leaving GM!! GM's world is a very narrow place indeed.
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 19:45:16 (EST)
From: Roger Drek
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: There now! Read & Rate It
Message:
Rick,

Thanks! It's there now at the House of Drek.

Keep sending in those recommendations. Winners get a free trip to one of the Maharaji Residences for a weekend of some grueling service like removing defective blades of grass with a tweazers.

If you know what some of the words in the other John K. post was I can probably find it in my archive reader.

click here to read and rate John K.'s Ontology post

click here for Roger's House of Drek
for way off topic stuff
Including the Chronicles of the Red Nighty

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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 20:14:36 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Roger Drek
Subject: There now! Read & Rate It
Message:
It was about the absurdity of why a creator would create us without knowledge, if we needed knowledge to be complete and happy. And why he would send someone as unrecognizable as BM to give us the knowledge. Like if God was so powerful, why wouldn't he just build knowledge into us, in the first place? Why would he have us have to suffer without it, and then send some third rate peanut-head who no one would believe?

I don't remember what words specifically were used in the post but it was brilliant, and I can't find it in the archives. I don't think he used the word 'absurd' but the post was hands-down the best I've read.
Rick
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Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 22:40:49 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Rick/Roger
Subject: Someone find the Cheese Post..
Message:
for Roger--Quick!
It was by Sir David.
It's one of my all time favorites, but I don't know where to find it in the archives. David? Robyn? Katie?
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Date: Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 02:50:13 (EST)
From: Roger Drek
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: The Cheese has been Posted
Message:
Actually, The Big Cheese and The Burning Bush were part of the Believe It or Not section. Now they are in the Best of the Forum page.

click here for the Best of The Forum

click here for Roger's House of Drek
for way off topic stuff
Including the Chronicles of the Red Nighty

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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 15:02:29 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Roger Drek
Subject: Thanks, Rog-nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 21:10:21 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Wow! such kind words!
Message:
Thanks Rick!
Well, those words of wisdom and truth came from that place within inside me. I just closed my eyes, went inside to that secret place, and started typing.
Ya know, seriously though, it occurs to me that WE, the super negative, mean and nasty, ex's, are really the ones with the positive message. I mean, our deeper message is not that M is a fraud, but that life is so much better A.G. (After Guru), and that human beings do not need M!
Really when you think about it, M's message is soo damned negative! His message is that we were created to need him! That we were created with a thirst for HIM! Yuck!
The fact is, through training, discipline, and brainwashing, people can be taught to need and believe anything. Hence, as a premie I was actually convinced that somehow my purpose in life or my 'happiness' was connected to M.
The X message is to believe in yourself first. Believe in your own common sense first. Don't go handing the reins of your life away! You are much greater a being than what the guru makes you into.
For several years after I left M, I was very poor, and lived in very bad conditions, but you know I was so happy because I was free from him. The poverty did not matter because I had recovered my self.
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