Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 4

From: Apr 19, 1998

To: Apr 29, 1998

Page: 4 Of: 5



Vayu -:- Testing -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:53:48 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Testing -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 22:15:35 (EST)
__Vayu -:- Testing -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 02:13:29 (EST)

Vayu -:- Tampering -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:50:49 (EST)
__Jim -:- Tampering -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 22:12:33 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Tampering -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 22:13:39 (EST)
__Brian -:- Tampering -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 22:42:37 (EST)
__Petrou -:- TAMPERING -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 04:32:51 (EST)
__JW -:- Computer Haiku -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 13:47:31 (EST)

Mickey the Pharisee -:- That Laugh -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 18:59:43 (EST)
__Petrou -:- That Laugh -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 04:49:11 (EST)
__Petrou -:- A Question. -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 09:30:29 (EST)
__Robyn -:- That Laugh -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 09:24:17 (EST)
____Mickey the Pharisee -:- That Laugh -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 11:45:54 (EST)
______Robyn -:- That Laugh -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:34:38 (EST)

Vayu -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 18:24:26 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 18:29:31 (EST)
____Vayu -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 18:38:29 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 18:42:42 (EST)
________Vayu -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 18:52:27 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 19:15:19 (EST)
____________Vayu -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 20:59:15 (EST)
______________Vayu -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:02:30 (EST)
________________Vayu -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:10:27 (EST)
__________________Vayu -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:15:55 (EST)
____________________Vayu -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:28:52 (EST)
______________________Vayu -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:40:29 (EST)
________________Vayu -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 22:19:10 (EST)
__________________Scott T. -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 22:36:47 (EST)
____________________Vayu -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:06:29 (EST)
______________Jim -:- You're whack, man -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:03:19 (EST)
________________Petrou -:- poor misunderstood Jim -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 05:08:01 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 22:29:15 (EST)
________________Vayu -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:14:57 (EST)
__________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:26:22 (EST)
____________________Jim -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:35:41 (EST)
______________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:48:44 (EST)
________________________Petrou -:- Mickey the Nit-picker. -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 05:14:31 (EST)
__________Vayu -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 19:20:32 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 19:30:20 (EST)
______________Vayu -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 19:40:40 (EST)
________________Nigel -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 19:54:11 (EST)
__________________Vayu -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 20:42:34 (EST)
____________________Nigel -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:44:33 (EST)
______________________Vayu -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:29:08 (EST)
________________Scott -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 19:55:36 (EST)
________________Scott T. -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 22:41:20 (EST)
____________Jim -:- I think it's bullshit -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:12:35 (EST)
____Petrou -:- to SCOTT T. -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 04:52:36 (EST)
__David -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 20:48:04 (EST)
____Bruce -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:13:27 (EST)
____Vayu -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:38:34 (EST)
__Paula -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:39:10 (EST)
____Vayu -:- The ultimate Judge -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:43:54 (EST)
__Petrou -:- VERY WELL PUT VAYU -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 04:42:12 (EST)

Scott T. -:- Leslie Berestein -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 15:45:55 (EST)
__Katie -:- Still Crazy,Memphis,Selena, & -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 16:55:52 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Still Crazy,Memphis,Selena, & -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 17:21:43 (EST)
______Katie -:- Still Crazy,Memphis,Selena, & -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 17:25:54 (EST)
________Jim -:- Or email me -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 19:49:41 (EST)
____Still Crazy -:- Still Crazy,Memphis,Selena, & -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 09:05:10 (EST)
______Katie -:- Still Crazy,Memphis,Selena, & -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 09:41:25 (EST)
__JW -:- Leslie Berestein -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 17:51:29 (EST)

VP -:- A Really BOGUS Notion -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 08:06:42 (EST)
__Robyn -:- A Really BOGUS Notion -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 09:21:42 (EST)
____Selena -:- A Really BOGUS Notion -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 00:46:22 (EST)
______Robyn -:- A Really BOGUS Notion -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 09:28:58 (EST)
__Petrou -:- Ignorance is bliss. -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 05:27:54 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Don't just shoot me. -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 22:29:18 (EST)

Steve A -:- What is a true Guru -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 04:49:47 (EST)
__David -:- What is a true Guru -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 07:02:58 (EST)
____Robyn -:- What is a true Guru -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 09:14:37 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- What is a true Guru -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 10:13:05 (EST)
______VP -:- Penises in the Vatican -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 14:58:14 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Penises in the Vatican -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 15:25:58 (EST)
__________VP -:- Penises in the Vatican -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 18:47:52 (EST)
____________Katie -:- Dali off topic -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 22:36:46 (EST)
______________VP -:- Renoir -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:15:25 (EST)
________________Katie -:- Renoir -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:34:03 (EST)
__________________Robyn -:- Renoir -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 11:56:18 (EST)
__________________VP -:- Renoir -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 14:49:47 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Dali & Valentine Vargas -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 16:16:17 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- A New Age contribution -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 10:02:39 (EST)
______David -:- A New Age contribution -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 10:52:33 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Zeno's paradox -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 13:01:09 (EST)
__________CD -:- Zeno's paradox -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 16:13:22 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- Zeno's paradox -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 16:31:18 (EST)
____________Jim -:- The Chris I love -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 16:46:55 (EST)
____________Still Crazy -:- Zeno's paradox -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 16:51:30 (EST)
____________Katie -:- Square Root of 2 -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 17:01:52 (EST)
______________CD -:- Square Root of 2 -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 20:32:44 (EST)
________________Katie -:- Square Root of 2 -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:12:50 (EST)
__________________CD -:- the US tour -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 16:29:24 (EST)
____________________VP -:- the US tour-Katie and CD -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 17:11:34 (EST)
________Nigel -:- A New Age contribution -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 20:45:51 (EST)
__________David -:- High speed giant frogs -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:19:45 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- Zeno of Elea -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 01:18:33 (EST)
______Jim -:- A New Age contribution -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 11:40:32 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- A New Age contribution -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 13:11:01 (EST)
____Still Crazy -:- Charnanand -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 16:42:03 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- Charnanand lives QM -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 17:34:06 (EST)
________CD -:- Charnanand lives QM -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 20:36:36 (EST)
________Still Crazy -:- Charnanand lives QM -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:00:26 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- Charnanand lives QM -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 22:11:32 (EST)
____________Still Crazy -:- Charnanand lives QM -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 22:42:07 (EST)
______________JW -:- Charnanand lives QM -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 13:07:49 (EST)
________________Still Crazy -:- Charnanand lives QM -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 17:27:26 (EST)
________________VP -:- Rainbow grocery -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 23:04:53 (EST)
____________CD -:- Still Crazy - now and then -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 22:59:44 (EST)
______________Jim -:- Still Crazy - now and then -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:46:05 (EST)
____Steve A -:- What is a true Guru -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 03:56:49 (EST)
__Mr Ex -:- What is a Guru -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 09:20:10 (EST)
____Bruce -:- What is a Guru -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 10:34:03 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- What is a Guru -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 10:50:13 (EST)
______Mr Ex -:- What is a Guru -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 12:15:06 (EST)
__gumby -:- What is a true Guru -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 10:27:29 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- What is a true Guru -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 13:16:02 (EST)
______Vayu -:- What is a true Guru -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 19:25:38 (EST)
______gumby -:- What is a true Guru -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 01:23:19 (EST)
____Steve A -:- What is a true Guru -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 04:03:55 (EST)
__Petrou -:- dilly-dally with Dali -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 05:44:43 (EST)
____Steve A -:- dilly-dally with Dali -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 21:54:32 (EST)

Mickey the Pharisee -:- Sheesh! -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 01:47:08 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Sheesh! -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 09:26:58 (EST)
____Katie -:- P.S. to robyn -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 10:11:45 (EST)
______Robyn -:- P.S. to robyn -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 10:16:27 (EST)
__Katie -:- Sheesh! -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 10:08:05 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Sheesh! -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 10:19:23 (EST)
____Mickey the Pharisee -:- Sheesh! -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 14:50:21 (EST)
__Petrou -:- Sheesh! -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 05:52:56 (EST)

gumby -:- Potty Mouths... -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 01:42:21 (EST)
__Rick -:- Potty Mouths... -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 10:22:22 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Potty Mouths... -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 10:40:53 (EST)
______Rick -:- Potty Mouths... -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 11:37:16 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Potty Mouths... -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 15:01:14 (EST)
______gumby -:- Theoretical... -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 12:47:58 (EST)
______Petrou -:- Potty Mouths... -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 06:29:46 (EST)
____Petrou -:- Potty Mouths... -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 06:25:08 (EST)
__CD -:- Potty Mouths... -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 13:19:32 (EST)
__Katie -:- Foul Mouths -:- Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 13:39:20 (EST)
__JW -:- Potty Mouths... -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 14:04:21 (EST)
____VP -:- Potty Mouths... -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 16:02:33 (EST)


Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:53:48 (EST)
From: Vayu
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Testing
Message:
<<>>
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 22:15:35 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Vayu
Subject: Testing
Message:
I don't think you've got the HTML right.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 02:13:29 (EST)
From: Vayu
Email: None
To: Scott
Subject: Testing
Message:
This will be my last message for many hours,
Just open your eyes Scott(and your heart)...and realise that Jim has not recanted at all.. but rather goes on in the same way, despite the very obvious disapproval from most of the forum inhabitants.
You might be tired of this ....believe me ...so am I.....IT SEEMS IT'S JIM who is not yet tired.
Don't make me laugh......Scott....Jim really wanted to make a new start .........either you are blind or love-struck!
Good night!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:50:49 (EST)
From: Vayu
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Tampering
Message:
NOW I REALLY SUSPECT TAMPERING BECAUSE THE SAME SENTENCE , QUOTING SCOTT BACK TO HIMSELF HAS BEED DELETED THREE TIMES .....EXCEPT THE <<>>..... This is a serious allegation I know but 3 times the same sentence has been deleted!!!!!!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 22:12:33 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Vayu
Subject: Tampering
Message:
Have you considered the hand of God, dear brother?

Vayu, I am here, guiding you step by step. I speak through all at various times, at this moment I'm using Jim. In seconds I may discard him or maybe I'll use him forever. I've played with your messages to get your attention.

Vayu, it was very clever for you to stumble into spirituality. Alas, can you stumble out?

Ah, but that question was a trick! Or was it? How can you decide? You could pray to me, God, but I myself get a little confused. Sorry, son. It's just not like it used to be.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 22:13:39 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Vayu
Subject: Tampering
Message:
You see how reflection doesn't work?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 22:42:37 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Vayu
Subject: Tampering
Message:
Consider leaving out the greater-than/less-than marks and see what happens.

But personally, I'd rather you emailed me a copy of whatever the code is choking on. Or just keep struggling. It's your choice.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 04:32:51 (EST)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: Vayu
Subject: TAMPERING
Message:
Another foul attempt to discredit GMJ has again fallen back on the heads of the EX-filers.Aren't they sad!!I havn't had a chance to check the archive but I have noticed in the past the strange machinations of the Ex-filers.See if you can find the death threat by 'bb':its a whopper.If you havn't got a copy send your email and I'll send it along.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 13:47:31 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Vayu
Subject: Computer Haiku
Message:
Wouldn't it be great if, instead of cryptic, geeky text strings, your computer produced error messages in Haiku? Like the following?

Windows NT crashed.
I am the Blue Screen of Death.
No one hears your screams.

A file that big?
It might be very useful.
But now it is gone.

First snow, then silence.
This thousand dollar screen dies
so beautifully.

A crash reduces
your expensive computer
to a simple stone.

To have no errors
Would be life without meaning
No struggle, no joy

The ten thousand things
How long do any persist?
Netscape, too, has gone.

Serious error.
All shortcuts have disappeared.
Screen. Mind. Both are blank.

Everything is gone;
Your life's work has been destroyed.
Squeeze trigger (yes/no)?

Chaos reigns within.
Reflect, repent, and reboot.
Order shall return.

This site has been moved.
We'd tell you where, but then we'd
have to delete you.

With searching comes loss
and the presence of absence:
'My Novel' not found.

Wind catches lily
scatt'ring petals to the wind:
segmentation fault
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 18:59:43 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Rick
Subject: That Laugh
Message:
Sheesh, it is exhausting trying to catch up on two weeks worth of posts; you people are prolific! Rick asked about that 'Guru on a laughing jag' track; it is the first track on side 2 of 'The Living Word' by the Apostles. Loved the discussion about the next Poifect Mastah; why does it have to be a member of the Rawatt family? Maybe the next will be my daughter, I nominate her! She's sixteen, got a great sense of humour, and can be just as mean and cruel as M when she wants!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 04:49:11 (EST)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: That Laugh
Message:
Hey Mickey:you better catch up on the issue of the death threat made by'bb' the other day.You might just want to disassociate yourself from 'the bad guys' before the writs start to fly.The Ex-filers are desperately trying to forget the issue but it ain't working.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 09:30:29 (EST)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: A Question.
Message:
O.K.now your supposed to be an honest man:look above and study the archive and tell me if you can see a single intelligble response to the issue of the bizarre death threat made to GMJ by bb on this very forum.Tell me if the only response has been mud,slander and insults.
What is your opinion?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 09:24:17 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: That Laugh
Message:
Dear Mickey,
I have a 16 year old daughter too. (thanks Scott, not for the daughter! but the too) What you say about your daughter is so true of mine also. They can also be so loving when they are troubled or want something and on a rare occassion, just because they love you!
Robyn
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 11:45:54 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Robyn
Subject: That Laugh
Message:
Hi Robyn,
Maybe our daughters can be co-Perfect Masters. One will take Spring and Summer, and the other Autumn and Winter. That way, they can still go to school! And just think of how much money they'll start bringing into the house, not to mention the fleet of luxury cars! Let's do it!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:34:38 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: That Laugh
Message:
Dear Micheal,
I think it's a plan. God knows my oldest daughter isn't going to take care of her mom in the style she has never known. I LOVE her dearly but she is a dancer and probably will not be rich anytime to soon!
Robyn
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 18:24:26 (EST)
From: Vayu
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
I don't know the ultimate Truth!
I know that I don't know.
There are zillions of justifications to support any idea.
Just listen to the democrats and the republicans.
It is not easy to admit to myself that I really don't know.
But it is my deepest truth .....at least that I can be conscious of.
I know that I have opinions but I also know that my opinions should not be confused with truth.
Not knowing the ultimate Truth keeps me open to listen to every point of view......I can learn .......I can evolve ......but I cannot reach an ultimate universally static TRUTH.
Taking one side is always at the cost of the other side.
Improving the sight in my left eye easily damages the sight of my right eye.
How to see with both eyes ....working together...in harmony.....complimenting each other......functioning as one?
These are not just words ......for me , this issue (not knowing).....is more important than all other subjects......why?
..because it strikes at the very heart of trying to debate anything else.
Who or what has the ultimate perspective on right and wrong?
good or bad? Please tell me if you know!
Who is the ultimate JUDGE?
vayu.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 18:29:31 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Vayu
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
Who said anything about 'ultimate' truth, 'Vayu?'
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 18:38:29 (EST)
From: Vayu
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
Then what truths are being shared here, Scott?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 18:42:42 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Vayu
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
Relative truths. Veracity, etc. Must be. How could we share ultimate truths, even if we knew them?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 18:52:27 (EST)
From: Vayu
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
What benefit is there in sharing 'relative' truths?
I am not implying that there are none..............I'm
just asking.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 19:15:19 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Vayu
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
Vayu:

I could respond by asking 'What benefit is there in sharing ultimate truths?' but that leaves the issue in the same 'ultimate' neighborhood. We need to make decisions about who to trust and not trust with a confidence, what recommendations to make to others, what task to undertake, what to reveal and what to hide, what to weigh and what to discard, what to commit to and where and when to remain uncommitted. We can ONLY do this in the relative sense, for we have no way of knowing whether or not doing so even matters, ultimately.

We only know that it matters locally, within a certain range of perception (perhaps enhanced astronomically, but still finite). It ALWAYS matters locally, at some level of resolution. We have no right or reason to assume it does not matter ultimately, though it might not. If it matters ultimately then we are both powerless and completely free. No choice can change the outcome except randomly, because no choice is informed. See?

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 20:59:15 (EST)
From: Vayu
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
Scott,
you said,

But how is one to make such a decision to TRUST WITH A CONFIDENCE?
You also said,

Well,I think I get the gist of what you are trying to say.
But if the best we can do is to make random choices in an attempt to influence an outcome .....how is it possible to really 'TRUST WITH CONFIDENCE' ...something or someone?
Do you understand?
Is there not a superior element/factor involved in helping us make right choices? Vayu
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:02:30 (EST)
From: Vayu
Email: None
To: Scott
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
Scott, for some reason my last post to you came out mangled between my computor and the forum......so I shall have to retype the thing again.....bear with me
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:10:27 (EST)
From: Vayu
Email: None
To: Scott
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
Scott, you said,
<<>>
How is someone to make such a decision to << trust with a confidence >>>?
You also said,
<<< no choice can change the outcome except randomly, because no choice is INFORMED. See?>>>
Therefore , is the best we can do ...to make random choices in an attempt to influence an outcome .....and if so ,then is there really no possibility of a superior factor involved in choosing who or what to trust?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:15:55 (EST)
From: Vayu
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
CALL ME PARANOID BUT MY MESSAGES ARE BEING EDITED OUT BETWEEN HERE AND THE FORUM.
Twice now I have typed the same message...and half of it has been omitted and altered in such a way to seem to mean something other then intended.
Sorry....this either is a bug or someone is tampering.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:28:52 (EST)
From: Vayu
Email: None
To: Whoever
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
Sorry ....I am not pointing a finger.....I said either 'a bug or tampering.....
One question.............is it possible for anyone to tamper with someone elses messages before they get onto the forum page?
Vayu
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:40:29 (EST)
From: Vayu
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
The missing part of the message was....
Scott ,you said,
<<>>

And then I asked , how is one to make such a decision TO TRUST WITH A CONFIDENCE?.....etc, 'read the other post...for other part.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 22:19:10 (EST)
From: Vayu
Email: None
To: Scott
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
OK...Scott I am going to try again....this time withoutthe<<<>>>...
You said...'We need to make decisions about who to trust and not to trust with a confidence',
And how is one to make such a decision with confidence?
was my question to you.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 22:36:47 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Vayu
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
'A' confidence, meaning a 'secret.' How do you trust someone with confidence? I don't know. You have to be a good judge of character. Monica Lewinsky, it appears, is not a good judge, nor does she herself have much character. But there's not much love lost in Washington, DC anyway, so trust sparingly if you're ever in that town.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:06:29 (EST)
From: Vayu
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
Thanks Scott, My next question ....is..... personally , how much do you trust your own judgements .... on who to trust and who not to?
And really when it boils down to the nitty gritty....what do you really base those judgements on?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:03:19 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Vayu
Subject: You're whack, man
Message:
Vayu,

Are you possibly from the same planet as Vacol? You guys come in the same ship or something?

I just wanted to let you know that there are some people here -- certainly not all - who think that spiritualty's bunk, a shell game perpetrated on the naive and hopeful. Ah, but aren't we all niave and hopeful, you ask. Yeah, that's the problem.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 05:08:01 (EST)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: poor misunderstood Jim
Message:
Here we again are blessed with the 'sorry little Jim' story .Do you get the feeling that he's deep down disillusioned with the world at large?As usual with people like this the idea of a scapegoat is very appealing:especially foreigners,immigrants or successful Indian Gurus!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 22:29:15 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Vayu
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
If you have no information all you can do is make random choices. There are no 'right' choices with regard to the ultimate. It's called 'being alive.' What do you think your breath is doing? Apart from that we make relative choices. Those can be 'right' or 'wrong' because they can be, but are not necessarily, 'informed.' That's what living is all about. Being alive -- living. It's simple. Living has, as it's goal, constructing a meaningful life. We cannot choose to have a meaningful life, we can only choose to make meaningful choices. BTW, I think I've seen your writing style before.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:14:57 (EST)
From: Vayu
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
My writing style has often been compared with a number of people....at different times.....I guess ...It's like ..'haven't I seen your face somewhere before ....well there is a chance that one has or it is just simular.
But what is crucial for me is the content ....not the style.
I think style is a secondary consideration.
What you said about making choices is interesting....
for me there is an intuitive factor involved.....some instinct that I think has developed through experience ....that helps one in making right choices.......although as we are still evolving .....living and learning ....this intuitive factor functions imperfectly......nonetheless, it is what I try to trust.
For instance trusting who to chat with and who not to on this forum is partly intuitive for me. Vayu
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:26:22 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Vayu
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
Vayu,
I must tell you that your 'style' gets in the way of any content for me. I don't understand the use....of.....so....m..a..n..y....periods all the time, or the use of the inverted 'v's'. A while ago there was someone posting who found it necessary *to* *use* *astericks* *constantly* Are these some kind of Premie creative writing tools?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:35:41 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
Thanks, Padre, for the laugh.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:48:44 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Jim
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
Hey Jim,

LET THE DEBATE BEGIN!!!

snicker snicker

LET....THE.....DEBATE......BEGIN!!...!!

hee hee hee

*LET* *THE* *DEBATE* *BEGIN*!*!*!*

HAW HAW HAW HAW

Faddah Mickey
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 05:14:31 (EST)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Mickey the Nit-picker.
Message:
Is this the great Mickey the Pharisee?? Boy is THIS going to be easy.I can see how your childishness appeals to someone like Jim.Unfortunately childishness is not a plus.Or are you 'like a child'??
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 19:20:32 (EST)
From: Vayu
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
What do any of you think about this quote from Sri Aurobindo?

'To exceed ego and be our true self ,to be aware of our real being , to possess it , to possess a real delight of being , is therefore the ultimate meaning of our life here; it is the the concealed sense of our individual and terrestrial existence'.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 19:30:20 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Vayu
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
The word 'therefore' implies that this was an hypothesis and that it has been proven. The quote is out of context, because I see neither the hypothesis nor the proof, only the conclusion.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 19:40:40 (EST)
From: Vayu
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
For the entire context read ......
The Life Divine by aurobindo....Chapter 23....'Man and the Evolution'......or better still the book as a whole.
BTW....you didn't respond to my earlier question..............'what is the benefit of sharing relative truths?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 19:54:11 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: Nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Vayu
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
Hi, Vayu. It think it is little evasive just to say read chapter 23 of such and such a book that most people here have probably never heard of, and might take them a long time to go searching for. Could you maybe summarise what Aurobindo does have to say on 'Man and Evolution'?

Thanks.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 20:42:34 (EST)
From: Vayu
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
Nigel, the reason I quoted that paricular passage from Aurobindo WAS that it summarised for me the entire chapter.
Of course I didn't intend to start a discussion about this .
If asking people here to respond to that quote seems unfair in some way .....ignore it .....but what do you think about my first entry in this thread? Vayu.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:44:33 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Vayu
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
Well since you've asked, I'll do my best.

Firstly, I think the concept of 'ultimate truth' is probably a human invention - something that will keep our over-evolved brains busy discussing once our basic needs have been met. It's a kind of 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?' question, since you have no proven yardstick for the task, no way of knowing your answer is correct, or even whether the question is answerable - or needs asking in the first place.

When people start talking about evolution and divinty in the same breath, for me the alarm bells start ringing. Evolution for me = Natural Selection = Darwin = 'God'. (Jim worships a fairly highly placed prophet, Dawkins, who, when all is said and done is a lesser being than Archangel S J Gould. But the book that says it all for me is - still - 'On the Origins of Species'.)

We are animals lucky enough to be human, and that is as much as any living thing could hope for - and for me there is a kind of joy and liberation to be found in realising I am ultimately answerable to no-one or their philosophies or dogmas, yet I can choose a way of life and moral code that I feel comfortable with.
And who needs eternity anyway? - Millions long for immortality who don't even know what to do with a wet Sunday afternoon.

And the main question: Who is to judge?

- You, of course. Who else would you trust an important question like that with?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:29:08 (EST)
From: Vayu
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
Thankyou for the response Nigel.
'ultimate truth is a human invention ' you have said ....and that you are a big fan of Darwin's evolution of the species.
I shall remark about both , but we shall have to agree to disagree I'm afraid
To me ....ultimate truth is a human invention , of the mind -that points to a truth beyond the mind.
And for me ,Darwin only got to a part of the truth.....not that I want to get into a long debate about that ......but to me evolution occurs on many levels......physical, mental, emotional.......and metaphysical......in other words on subtle levels that are not so obvious to the more logical function of our brains/minds. Vayu
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 19:55:36 (EST)
From: Scott
Email: None
To: Vayu
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
Sorry Scott....you did respond to my earlier ? but somehow I hadn't seen it.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 22:41:20 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Vayu
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
Relative happiness.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:12:35 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Vayu
Subject: I think it's bullshit
Message:
Vayu,

You asked for comments about Sri Aurobindo's:

'To exceed ego and be our true self ,to be aware of our real being , to possess it , to possess a real delight of being , is therefore the ultimate meaning of our life here; it is the the concealed sense of our individual and terrestrial existence'.

I think its unspectacular many-time recycled new age religious bubblespeak. What do you think about it?

The first phrase is ridiculous -- you can't 'exceed ego' and if you did you wouldn't be your 'true self' you'd be severely incapacitated. 'Possessing' your true self? That sounds like really meaningless blather such as you find in art catalogues. A 'real delight in being' is nice... and safe, I guess. Who isn't for a good time?

'Ultimate meaning'? Who assigned any meaning here? God? When did he do that? What meaning did he give Dolly the cloned sheep, by the way? 'Our life here'? Glad he specified, I was beginning to get confused. The 'concealed sense of our individual and terrestrial existence'? Well that's better. Now that I know he's talking about both. I guess it's that big word at the end that puts it all into perspective. Kind of like quantum physics, eh?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 04:52:36 (EST)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: to SCOTT T.
Message:
Try these:JC,Einstein,prof.Hawking,Shakespeare.They were all into the search for ultimate truth.Its a great topic,how do you get off ignoring it??
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 20:48:04 (EST)
From: David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Vayu
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
That's a good one - who is the ultimate judge. Well I haven't read any of the responses to your question yet but I would bet that some people say the ultimate judge is God.

But I'm going to be a bit different here and say that the ultimate judge is OURSELF. God is there but in a non judgemental, loving mode. The person who judges us the most is ourself. What do you think, do you agree or disagree? By the way, I think ultimate truth is reletive to our perception. But in my experience, the ultimate truth is love.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:13:27 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: None
To: David
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
David,

Well said!

Bruce
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:38:34 (EST)
From: Vayu
Email: None
To: David
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
Thank you for the response David .
I think, that to say that 'love' is the ultimate truth is a valid way of expressing 'something' .....but there are other valid ways besides .......and that brings us back to the proposition that all ideas are relative .
So it seems to beg the question .....what do you really mean by the term love? Vayu.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:39:10 (EST)
From: Paula
Email: None
To: Vayu
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
You are in the wrong place if you wanna discuss the 'truth'...
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:43:54 (EST)
From: Vayu
Email: None
To: Paula
Subject: The ultimate Judge
Message:
Paula....I am an eternal optimist.
And so far so good .....there's a reasonable debate going on here. Why don't you join in . I would like to read your contribution......but no pressure....only if you 'choose'.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 04:42:12 (EST)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: Vayu
Subject: VERY WELL PUT VAYU
Message:
Its good to meet people like you here Vayu:so all the Ex-filers can be reminded about normal thinking abilities and sound judgments.Its our humane duty to remind them occasionally,otherwise they might slip further into the Net-nut syndrome that they seemed determined to engage in.Don't ever forget that a lot of them are into 'other trips' and feel it their duty to try to degrade GMJ out of their new loyalties:exactly the opposite of your well put point here.Carry on the good work.There are quite a few of us here now.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 15:45:55 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Leslie Berestein
Message:
Anyone else hear from Ms. Berestein recently? Ideas? Suggestions?

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 16:55:52 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Scott T.
Subject: Still Crazy,Memphis,Selena, &
Message:
Yes, I did (and by the way, I am not the Katie who does post-cult counseling - sorry folks). I would very much like it if anyone who has recently left M (say in the past few years) would contact her: Still Crazy, Mr. Ex, Selena, Memphis Belle, Bill Burke, possibly Nigel? Please e-mail me (I will NOT reveal your identity) (or you can set up a fake e-mail at rocketmail.com), and I'll forward her letter to you.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 17:21:43 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Still Crazy,Memphis,Selena, &
Message:
Dear Scott, and Katie,
I got it to but may not be as much help to her as some of you but I'll write her tomorrow.
Robyn
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 17:25:54 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: All exes
Subject: Still Crazy,Memphis,Selena, &
Message:
If anyone doesn't feel comfortable e-mailing me, please contact brian@ex-premie.org. (Our esteemed webmaster, who is as silent as the tomb.)
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 19:49:41 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Or email me
Message:
If you're really anxious about someone revealing your name, and you don't trust either Katie or Brian, you can email me at heller@bc1.com
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 09:05:10 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Still Crazy,Memphis,Selena, &
Message:
Who is Leslie Berestein and why would I want to talk to her?

-Still
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 09:41:25 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Still Crazy
Subject: Still Crazy,Memphis,Selena, &
Message:
She's doing a story on gurus of the seventies for a newsmagazine - wants to talk to some people who recently left the GMJ fold. Not sure if you'd want to talk to her, but she would probably like to talk to you.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 17:51:29 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Leslie Berestein
Message:
I gather she wants to know about what has happened SINCE the 70s. I told her I didn't know much about that period. Also, the Big M is likely a small part of her article, as she is apparently covering every 'guru-trip' around in the 70s. And that's quite a few.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 08:06:42 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A Really BOGUS Notion
Message:
Below I put a little cult programming notion into one of my posts...
While I may have been correct that people MAY judge Maharaji as being right or wrong based upon OUR actions (I have seen this happening with Vacol) that doesn't make it a truth. It's a completely bogus notion. Really.

You can like or hate anyone here as you choose to and it has absolutely NO impact upon the fact that the gooroo is a phoney. We have no control over Maharaji-- has done what he has done or not done BY HIMSELF. Make me or anyone else here a villan, a whiner,or whatever...it is not going to change the fact about who the REAL villan is:)

Judge the gooroo for himself. For his actions.

Now that I have THAT cleared up, have a great day, everyone!

VP
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 09:21:42 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: VP
Subject: A Really BOGUS Notion
Message:
Dear VP,
That is absolutely true! I've seen other premies draw similar conclusions! Because they are peaceful and happy, M is all or because K works in their lives, M is all. I have come back with the statement that many ex's continue to meditate using K without M and it still works. This comment has never sparked any further discussion, of course!
Robyn
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 00:46:22 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: A Really BOGUS Notion
Message:
Robyn, you said
'That is absolutely true! I've seen other premies draw similar conclusions! Because they are peaceful and happy, M is all or because K works in their lives, M is all'

ahh, but have you noticed, when they are upset or freaked about something, then it's 'this world' or other people or events that caused it, never M!!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 09:28:58 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Selena
Subject: A Really BOGUS Notion
Message:
Dear Selena,
Good point, when I read your post I realized I've seen that mentioned here before by ex's. It really is in keeping with premies keeping any negativity away from M. They just blame themselves, their minds, ex's, or those who know nothing of M.
Robyn
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 05:27:54 (EST)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Ignorance is bliss.
Message:
Again,ignorance of the real issue of the threats made to GMJ at this site.Yeah,you can hate all you want to,just don't break the law like'bb'did otherwise you too could be reaching for the sedatives.Don't go too far with your hatred because it may be seen as another threat to a world renowned figure.If you nurse your hatred long enough you might give birth to a bouncing ulcer.Keep trying I'm sure you'll achieve this goal at least!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 22:29:18 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Petrou
Subject: Don't just shoot me.
Message:
Petey:

You're doing great with this insightful and creative interpretive crusade. In line with your astonishing interpretive skills have you taken a look at the post toward the bottom of the 'vunerability' (sic) thread marked 'to the poet?' Do you think it's illegal for a person to request their very own assassination? I'm not a lawyer, but shoot (oops) it seems there might be a 'real issue' here. Of course, we don't know who actually posted this request, so perhaps you have some detective work to do?

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 04:49:47 (EST)
From: Steve A
Email: steve.allison@lion-nathan.com.au
To: Everyone
Subject: What is a true Guru
Message:
A Guru by definition is one who dispells darkness and leads his devotees to God. Supposedly the bond between Guru and his disciple is an everlasting one and a one that transcends incarnations. The Guru remains responsible for his devotees until they reach their goal of God realization. The Guru formalises this relationship by giving initiation or 'diksha'..... Sound familiar ?.

The interesting thing is that the truly great Guru's that I have heard or read about, have been renunciants or Swamis. These people have owned nothing or very little for themselves. Many of the great Guru's were never married or if they were renounced any sexual relationship with their spouse following their supposed enlightenment (truly a monumental accomplishment). It is common for the Guru to shun any form of worship from his disciples, and is quick to inform his devotees that any gratitude for supposed miraculous powers or events be directed to God alone. Rarely does the Guru even concede that they may have interceded with the almighty on a devotees behalf.

My point is this, I believe a God realized person requires nothing from the world or other people, he/she has the greatest gift of all. He/she exists on this earth purely for the benefit and upliftment of others.

I do not suggest that anyone should go out and find a Guru or take up some eastern religion, nor do I suggest that you change your spiritual beliefs in any way, particularly if you are satisfied with them as they are. I do suggest however that if you are seeking an alternative be sure it doesn't conflict with your own conscience and ensure that any supposed leader or Guru does not portray him/herself as God or the sole individual qualified to intercede for you.

I would be most happy to hear others thoughts on this, I am definately no expert but like most ex-premies I have learned to be a little cautious about people demanding absolute and unquestioning obedience or surrender.
Suggested background reading - Autobiography of a Yogi, and Man's Eternal Quest both by Paramahansa Yogananda and The Science of Religion by Swami Sri Yukteswar.

Best wishes and kind regards to you all.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 07:02:58 (EST)
From: David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Steve A
Subject: What is a true Guru
Message:
Most people here have probably had enough of gurus. I personally don't believe there's any such thing as an enlightened soul. We're all human and I believe we are better off acting like humans rather than trying to renounce the world and achieve some supposed samadic state.

I think there's a great value in meditation, if you can do it! But if we actually think that meditation can cause God realisation as in the Hindu belief, then I think we've been misled. I used to think that Mahatma Guru Charananand was as close to God realisation as you could get but now I realise he's just an ordinary human being like the rest of us. The same goes for Maharaji.

Regarding God realisation. I now have an understanding that this is actually an ongoing thing that never reaches a final conclusion. This is very different to Hindu philosophy of course. We as a child of God possess His attributes. Created in His image etc. Therefore, we as humans are in the process of realising God all the time. I believe everything we do is part of God realisation. I don't think God realisation is just about trying to go inside. Otherwise most of humanity would be exept from any realisation. I see God as our Father and we will slowly grow to become more like Him since we are His offspring. But such growth is totally personal and a guru could not possibly guide it because he isn't God.

My understanding is that as God creates to express Himself then as we grow closer to Him then our creative powers increase and rather than abandoning the physical we choose to come back into it in order to 'bring love with us' and help others. But that help we give to others could be just on a purely personal level to our friends or our children. ANy suffering we experience in the physical is simply the risk we take when we 'love' and though it can be painful, such pain is due to our love and it is turned around and only increases our love.

Different to the Hindu stuff I know and more closely alighned to Christianity. But I genuinly believe that the ultimate aim of existence is to 'love' verb and all my own awakenings have only confirmed that even more. The ultimate goal if there is ever to be one, would be to have the kind of love that God must feel. But by then, He'll have even more love, as He Himself grows and so it goes on for eternity. No Guru teaches this.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 09:14:37 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: David
Subject: What is a true Guru
Message:
Dear David and Steve,
I do not have a firm oppinion on gurus but I do believe as far as gurus or any other religious person or group but I do believe to have any creedence at all they must not be out for the riches themselves. I always had a problem with all the riches at the Vatacan and certainly with M. What Steve says about gurus who hold to a life of celibacy and poverty is the only thing, in my mind and heart that would point to a truely devote person as far as a spiritual leader. It is one of the only outward measures to judge the spiritual persons motives. I suppose there are those religious leader wan-a-be's that want the power more than money or sex but in those cases it is the leader's need to control that would become the red flag. It is such a shame that those who are seeking in an honest child-like manner must be so cautious and skeptical but such is this life.
Just my 2 cents.
Robyn
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 10:13:05 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: What is a true Guru
Message:
Robyn:

Sounds very 'on the mark' to me.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 14:58:14 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Penises in the Vatican
Message:
Robyn,
Did you know that at one time (can't remember the dates, and my darn books aren't here) the Vatican ordered all of the penises to be cut off of various church art works (if they could not be successfully covered)? The penises were stored with lots of other art treasures. The church has lots of money, and penises, too! VP
P.S. Salvadore Dali was crazier than a shit house rat (sorry gumby) and only fairly creative (Sorry Bruce). Mostly obsessed with eggs, birth, and other feminine things. Now Picasso, there was a very creative and prolific guy, but a real prick.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 15:25:58 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: VP
Subject: Penises in the Vatican
Message:
Dear VP,
Penises in the Vatacan! So typically up tight, can't have them showing but can't throw them away either, never know when they might come in handy, hehehe!
I forgot to respond to your question about Dali, my friend never mentioned him being into M at all. Did you ask because you had heard something?
Robyn
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 18:47:52 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Penises in the Vatican
Message:
No, I never heard anything about him being a premie, just wondered if you had. First he had a premie model for him, now Scott says a premie friend of his knew Dali and Bruce says that he has the techniques demonstated in a painting. Of course this could be coincidence. I have seen that painting, but it was before I knew the techniques. I tried to get to the site to see that painting again, but couldn't. Too bad we didn't have a link. VP
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 22:36:46 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: VP
Subject: Dali off topic
Message:
That painting is (or was) in the National Gallery of Art in DC. I HATED it when I was a kid (when I was approximately age 6 or 7, my parents took me to the gallery a lot). I think it confused me because of the see-through Jesus, plus all the religious allusions, which were just weird to me at that age. My favorite was Renoir - can you guess which one, VP?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:15:25 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Renoir
Message:
Katie,
I should know this, but tell me anyway.
VP
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:34:03 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Renoir
Message:
It was 'Girl with a Watering Can'. I don't particularly care for it any more, but I was absolutely enamoured of it back then (I still get reproductions of it from my family!). Have you ever been to the National Gallery - the old part (West Wing)? It is great! I used to wish I lived there.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 11:56:18 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Renoir
Message:
Dear Katie, VP, et al,
I had a cat that I named Dr. Renoir Gibson.
Robyn
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 14:49:47 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Renoir
Message:
Katie,

Yes, I have been there but it was a long time ago. I need to go back. I know that painting well. Alas, I don't care for the majority of Renoir's work (what I've seen anyway) as much as I do for some other artists' works. I love Gustav Klimt, Alice Neel, Van Gogh (okay it's cliche, but who cares? He was a genius!), Carravagio, Rembrandt's prints, some of Warhol's prints-the american hero series is really fun- Superman and Annie Oakley.

I could go on all day, but Brian wouldn't like it too much.(snicker) Have you been to the Nelson gallery? It's actually a really nice little gallery. I remember crying in front of the Caravaggio there in college...A good friend of mine used to be a curator there. He used to hug their little Van Gogh. VP
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 16:16:17 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Dali & Valentine Vargas
Message:
VP:

A personal, though perhaps less than close, friend of Dali's was a premie in the '70s. We used to hang out and paint together. He was an Argentinian name Valentine Vargas. Wonder what happened to Val. Anyone from the L.A. Community know?

Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 10:02:39 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: David
Subject: A New Age contribution
Message:
Steve, David, Robyn, et al:

It's been awhile since I did A Course in Miracles, but one of the things that impressed me about that 'non-religion' (which has probably become a religion by now) was the cosmology it proposed. Basically the purpose of the spiritual path (my words because I can't recall what 'the course' uses), which is always and only mediated by the Holy Spirit, is to reach Atonement with our fellow man. Beyond that goal humans cannot reach. There is then one final step, Atonement with God, which is a step taken by God. It's their solution to Zeno's Paradox. This whole setup appeals to me somehow, even though I no longer 'practice.' The Course is characterized as paradigmatically New Age, which puts me off as being associated with their 'bubblespeak,' but more significantly with their 'bubbleact.' I still like the concept though.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 10:52:33 (EST)
From: David
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: A New Age contribution
Message:
Small question. What is Zeno's Paradox?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 13:01:09 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Zeno's paradox
Message:
Zeno of Elea 495?-430? B.C.
Greek philosopher who formulated numerous paradoxes that challenged the ideas of pluralism and the existence of motion and change.

If you move half way (or some proportion) of the distance between yourself and the goal each time you move toward it, the goal will never me reached. 'Distance' is therefore infinite, and motion does not exist.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 16:13:22 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Zeno's paradox
Message:
Yes, the elusive infinity of existence.
Of course it manifests really quickly when you start looking at numbers too closely which is what the Greeks did.

Ah that number PI that bugged the Catholic Church and so many others.
The beauty of the golden sequence.
Of course irrational numbers are one of the worst offenders.

I always liked the square root of 2.
The trouble that Pythagoras caused - g!
It looks quite simple.
A right triangle with 2 sides of length 1
Now what is that pesky number that is the length of that hypoteneus?
Was he a troublemaker or what?

So what is that thing looking out of our eyes?
And where do WE exist anyways?

CD

Gump enjoys an interesting number once in a while
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 16:31:18 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Zeno's paradox
Message:
CD:

In my estimation it's not all that profound. The basic issue has to do with 'levels of resolution' that are relevant to where you are or what you want to do. Fortunately we don't have to worry about seeing the atomic particles that compose printer's ink when we look at a printed page. Being 'able' to do so would involve enormous and untenable confusion. We have constraints on our perceptions that are somewhat convenient, a fact that abstract thought sometimes obscures.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 16:46:55 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: The Chris I love
Message:
This is the Chris I love.

He seems to think that he's got the slyest, subtlest inquiring mind and loves to pose koan-like rhetorical questions which, it seems, he thinks cut right to the quick of the matter. Chris apparently fancies himself the calm, buddha-natured one fearlessly fixed on the truth. Did the Catholic church bristle at the mystery of math? Too bad Chris wasn't there to tell them to relax, breathe deeply and REALLY consider things. Maybe he might have encouraged them to talk out their confusion. Hardy har har!

The depths of hypocrisy, really, if you think about it. Well, 'interesting' in any event.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 16:51:30 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Zeno's paradox
Message:
So what is that thing looking out of our eyes?

The thing that looks out of my eyes is me.

M spent many years trying to convince me that the light and word I perceived in meditation were 'my True Self.' For years I believed him.

How about you? Do you believe him? Is there any reason you feel this way besides the fact that M told you?

-Still
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 17:01:52 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Square Root of 2
Message:
Hi Chris - Do you remember what William O. West said he used the derivation of the square root of 2 for? Good grief! (I liked your answer to him by the way, not sure if you remember!)

Katie
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 20:32:44 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Square Root of 2
Message:
>Do you remember what William O. West said he used the derivation of the square root of 2 for? Good grief!

I don't quite remember but I have a hunch - g!

He seems to be missing from the forum.
Even with a fake name he would be easy to spot.
Intense people like him have a recognizable writing signature.
But, possibly he has taken a new drug and changed or become a renunciate.
He purports to have tried many things already.

The countdown to Miami is starting.
My buddy is getting pretty excited about the trip.

CD
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:12:50 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: CD
Subject: Square Root of 2
Message:
Are there any other programs in the US this year besides Miami? And do you think it would be safe for KNOWN ex-premies to go to one (you do security sometimes, so I am just asking)? Would you be our personal security guard?

P.S. You don't want to know about WOW and the square root of two. You said he was profaning it and I agree!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 16:29:24 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: the US tour
Message:
>Are there any other programs in the US this year besides Miami? And do you think it would be safe for KNOWN ex-premies to go to one (you do security sometimes, so I am just asking)?

Yes.
Miami May 8,9,10
Montreal May 12
Long Beach May 30
Seattle July 11
Denver July 14
Atlantic City July 21
Chicago July 23
Miami July 25
Anaheim September 18,19,20

Who knows, I may even go to Seattle.

Sure it would be safe.
Don't insult someone in their face and everybody will have a great time.
Plenty of nice and interesting people will be at the events.
Most of the attendees and partyers have lots of tolerance for different views on life, K and M.
There is always something to learn.

I don't do security.
The only time I was involved with that was in India in 72.

Best wishes,
CD
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 17:11:34 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: the US tour-Katie and CD
Message:
Katie and CD,

'Plenty of nice and interesting people will be at the events.
Most of the attendees and partyers have lots of tolerance for different views on life, K and M.'

I'd like to go to a program, but I wouldn't want to meet any NUTS who are NOT tolerant of differing views of Maharaji. (See how much you are doing for the cause, Petrou?) Peaceful premies like CD I would have no problem with.

Katie, what would be wrong with Miami?

VP
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 20:45:51 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: David
Subject: A New Age contribution
Message:
When I learned about it at school, Xeno's (not Zeno's) Paradox was explained with the story about the tortoise and the hare having a race, but the tortoise is given a head start. The basic paradoxical argument is that the hare can never catch up with the tortoise because, by the time it reaches the point the tortoise was at, say, five seconds ago, the tortoise will have moved on, and by the time the hare has reached where the tortoise has got to now, again the tortoise will have moved on etc., etc.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:19:45 (EST)
From: David
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: High speed giant frogs
Message:
Thanks Scott & nigel. I remember it now. I always remember Xeno's paradox as a frog hopping from the centre of a pond to its edge. First hop is halfway to the edge, second hop is half way to the edge again and so on for ever.

I once did some mental gymnastics and considered what would happen if the opposite happened and the frog hopped double the distance each time. Interesting and ridiculous scenarios could develope; the frog would go into orbit and then shoot off at a tangent to circumnavigate the universe, eventually reaching the speed of light which, according to Einstein, would make the frog's mass infinite.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 01:18:33 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Zeno of Elea
Message:
Nigel:

I remember the tortoise and hare story as well. I think there is a whole series. Here is what I scrounged up in the Encyclopedia:

Zeno of Elea, c.490-c.430 B.C., Greek philosopher of the Eleatic school founded by PARMENIDES. Zeno's only known work, extant in fragmented form, uses a series of paradoxes to show the error of commonsense notions of time and space, thereby demonstrating Parmenides' doctrine that motion and multiplicity are logically impossible. Contemporary thinkers have shown renewed interest in the problems Zeno raised.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 11:40:32 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: A New Age contribution
Message:
Scott,

I wonder if you'd think the same after reading Kramer and Alstead's analysis of ACIM in the Guru Papers. Scott Perry, the founder of this site, is into ACIM, by the way.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 13:11:01 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A New Age contribution
Message:
Jim:

'The Course' states in the opening that there is no particular reason why one ought to continue with the program after having completed it once. People don't seem to take this seriously for some reason. I did. I plan to read the Guru Papers eventually. Lots on my plate at the moment.

Of course there are lots of problems with the notion of 'universal oneness' that is at the core of ACIM. Not the least of these is the so called 'Paradox of Liberalism' by Sen (Senn?) Buchanan has a take on this that's quite interesting, involving the notion of 'meddling preferences.'

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 16:42:03 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Charnanand
Message:
I used to think that
Mahatma Guru Charananand was as close to God realisation as you could
get but now I realise he's just an ordinary human being like the rest
of us.


I am a human being, but I will not demean myself to compare myself to that abusive, male-supremist jerk Charnanand. I also used to feel like he was a 'realized being.' He has said many things to encourage this belief in me, things like 'I just thank my Guru Maharaj Ji for freeing me from the cycle of birth and death,' and, 'You've seen these renunciates, there's one guru who meditated for 20 years, and at the end of that time he could make a river of water run out of his hand. If I wanted to, I could make a river flow out of my hand overnight, but this Knowledge is much greater.'

If M is a charlatan, Charnanand is one in spades!

-Still
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 17:34:06 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: Charnanand lives QM
Message:
Still:

Good grief, you mean the old fart is still alive! He was in his seventies (so they said) when I was a premie. Of course, he didn't look it, so it may have been a story to add to his mystique.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 20:36:36 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Charnanand lives QM
Message:
He was at a table nearby me eating dinner in Long Beach.
The guy seems to be doing well.
The guitar instrumental, track #9 on the Drifting music CD was written by him.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 21:00:26 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Charnanand lives QM
Message:
Charnanand shaved his head. He now looks about the same, except he has hair.

My guess is that he's somewhere in his fifties right now, maybe even younger.

-Still
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 22:11:32 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: Charnanand lives QM
Message:
Still:

You have to be kidding! In his fifties? He's my age for Christ sake. Was I deluded or what? I don't know anyone at the time who would have guessed him in his forties, let alone his thirties or twenties. What a way to build a mystique! I should start telling everyone I'm really 75. By the time I actually reach 75 I could have my very own Guru machine. Call it my retirement plan.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 22:42:07 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Charnanand lives QM
Message:
I'll bet that's *exactly* how he thought.

Remember (or maybe you never heard), Vijay Kumar Sumar (Mahatma somebody-or-other, can't remember right now, left in 1977) told M, 'I came to this country to be a holy man, not to work in a grocery!'

But Charnanand goes out and plays golf every day, for gawdzsake. And tennis. So he can't be that old.

If you do it, be sure to shave your head and wear a turban.

And act very holy except when you're actually around people privately, then act like an asshole.

-Still
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 13:07:49 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: Charnanand lives QM
Message:
I think Gurucharanand had to be younger than many people thought. The way he was carrying on with women sexually, he couldn't have been THAT old. But I would think he is at least in his 60s by now. I understand he now has his own apartment in LA and is still a trusted instructor or the Big M. I used to feel like I would offer him money if he would please NOT sing those songs he used to sing.

And I think that mahatma you mentioned who felt belittled working at Rainbow Grocery was Mahatma Vijayanand. I understand he and his girlfriend rejected Maharaji and then started some kind of religious group themselves. A guy who used to post here said he went to some meeting in Washington DC where Vijayanand presided and said he was translating the Bagavad Gita or something like that. I have no idea where he is now.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 17:27:26 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Charnanand lives QM
Message:
And I think that mahatma you mentioned who felt belittled working at Rainbow Grocery was Mahatma Vijayanand.

That's the one!

I understand he and his girlfriend rejected Maharaji and then started some kind of religious group themselves.

Yes, he changed his name to Vijay Kumar Sumar and, I understand, started dispensing Knowledge on his own. I also have heard nothing about him in about 20 years.

-Still
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 23:04:53 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW or anyone
Subject: Rainbow grocery
Message:
JW,
Where is this Rainbow grocery? I've heard this name mentioned more than once on this forum. Is there more than one of these stores? If so, do you know who owns them?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 22:59:44 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Still Crazy - now and then
Message:
>Was I deluded or what? I don't know anyone at the time who would have guessed him in his forties, let alone his thirties or twenties.

Yes this would be good info to add along side the Australia event report.
Remember also that M was really a midget way back.
I am sure you saw the reports but didn't believe them at the time.
It just took a while to realize how the whole thing was put together.

Still Crazy certainly has several curious hypothesis.
The name is obviously used as a reverse hypnosis tool.
Reminds me of those subsonic mind altering vibrations in the audio system at M events that Mr Ex described in great detail.
Still Crazy could team up with Mr. Ex and have a tour a bit like Leary and Liddy with Jim as promoter and MC.
You could be a technical writer for the show with Selena picked at random from the audience for a suprise confession.

CD
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:46:05 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Still Crazy - now and then
Message:
Chris,

Your biting wit would be more effective if you put your teeth in. You know, as well as we do, that this whole cult is based on pretense and illusion. Few of us ever saw M or his wife and kiddies outside of an extremely controlled environment. For some of us, especially back in the golden days of DLM, mahatmas were the same.

Thus we believed, as we were told, that they were all celibate. For those of us trying to follow their example -- and M's agya, of course -- this was much more than academic.

So, Chris, you're so far above rumour, why not simply settle afew of them for us.

Does Gurucharanand have a mistress as far as you know?

How bout Maharaji?

Did Fakiranand get banished by M or just sent back to India?

What does M say about BBJ?

See, if you don't like rumour, subsitute information. It's a lot better than trying to foreclose curiosity, you, you.... you, PICKLE!!

Sorry, I just had to do that.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 03:56:49 (EST)
From: Steve A
Email: None
To: David
Subject: What is a true Guru
Message:
Dear David

Thanks for your reply. I too believe that the ultimate goal is to be able to love, but perhaps the 'ultimate' is being able to love all people because God beats in every heart. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could see the disguises of ego, hate, prejudice, indifference etc. for what they are, just stupid dellusions...masks that we put in front of ourselves, we use them to protect our pride, to hide our faults or nurture our ever fragile egos.

I do differ from you in that I do believe in enlightened souls and I also believe there is no limit to what we can do if our love and determination is strong enough.

Best wishes and kind regards
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 09:20:10 (EST)
From: Mr Ex
Email: None
To: Steve A
Subject: What is a Guru
Message:
Why don't we use the word teacher here?
What's so special he deserves a 'true G'?

A teacher is someone who teaches
good or bad
Guru is an Hindi word for teacher

Nobody dispells ignorance or darkness, except yourself.

As soon as you start thinking or believing someone else does or
did it for you, you're in a bad shape my friends.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 10:34:03 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: None
To: Mr Ex
Subject: What is a Guru
Message:
Mr EX,

So are we to accept this as your teaching?

By the way ,I asked you some time back why you stated to me like it was a fact, that

you too are ashamed, like most of my premie friends I still have

Since you don't know me from Adam, I'd like to know what gives you the right to say this.

I assure you that I am not now and have never been ashamed of
M. nor my involvement with him.

I've been annoyed with some of the premies'
behaviour, sure. But not with M.

Bruce
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 10:50:13 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: What is a Guru
Message:
I assure you that I am not now and have never been ashamed of M. nor my involvement with him.

Bruce listen, we've all been premies so don't bother feeding us that line. No offense but, 'thou dost protest too much.' Besides, shame is healthy. It shows you are mindful of being human.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 12:15:06 (EST)
From: Mr Ex
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: What is a Guru
Message:
>Mr EX,
>So are we to accept this as your teaching?

No, because I don't intend to teach anything regarding gurus.
Enough has already been said and written on this issue,
plenty of extremely interesting contributions on this Forum, on this web-site, and some very interesting books too, like The Guru Papers, etc

>By the way ,I asked you some time back why you stated to me like >it was a fact, that you too are ashamed, like most of my premie >friends I still have

I'm very sorry for this overstatement. The fact is that most of the premies IMHO are in that condition. You're one of the proud ones, good for you at least, I don't have anything against you or any premie, believe me.

>Since you don't know me from Adam, I'd like to know what gives >you the right to say this.

Some bad tendancies I have!

>I assure you that I am not now and have never been ashamed of
>M. nor my involvement with him.

I've been like you too! Believe me! Then I've been ashamed, now I'm not ashamed anymore. That was one of the worst mistake I made in my life.

>I've been annoyed with some of the premies'
>behaviour, sure.

Silly, like in any group....

>But not with M.

I am VERY much concerned with his behavior, I'm sorry.
IMHO this guy is an international public nuisance, like many others.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 10:27:29 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Steve A
Subject: What is a true Guru
Message:
Hi Steve,

Definition of GURU = Gee You Are You! :))

GAGBWY

-gumby
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 13:16:02 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: What is a true Guru
Message:
Gumby:

Cute. Where do you get this stuff? Amazing!

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 19:25:38 (EST)
From: Vayu
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: What is a true Guru
Message:
Guru is a name.........a symbol.............that like all words may or may not have a profound core meaning.
From darkness to light is one interpretation.
So.......theoretically, a guru is one who can lead others from darkness to light .
But as with all words ......the usage of this word has been much abused.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 01:23:19 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: What is a true Guru
Message:
Hi Scott,

Stuff just accumulates, you spend enough time in the search circles and you start to hear everything.

Hope all is well with U.

GAGBWY

-gumby
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 04:03:55 (EST)
From: Steve A
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: What is a true Guru
Message:
Dear Gumby

Very good, I love your definition.

Kind regards and best wishes Steve A
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 05:44:43 (EST)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: Steve A
Subject: dilly-dally with Dali
Message:
GMJ deserves any wealth he has.He came from a wealthy family too.Your notion of a guru is only a concept.Remember Krishna was a prince and also had many wives as well.Or are you against using examples from different cultures?
I couldn't help but notice a twinge of envy in your message and then by Freudian association other messages followed about penis's.Remarkable as penis envy is a supressed desire for power.Co-incidence?Even the Ex-filers themselves were commenting about how they didn't know why the conversation was going off the track.
I often wonder if this weird link will finally end up making GMJ even more money if the threats continue?.It probably will.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 21:54:32 (EST)
From: Steve A
Email: None
To: Petrou
Subject: dilly-dally with Dali
Message:
Dear Petrou

I have no problem with M having as much money as he likes, nor do I feel envious for what wealth he has. You do have a valid point regarding Krishna, however this seems to be more the exception than the norm even so Krishna did teach non-attachment. The likes of Jesus, Buddha, Gandhi etc. all renounced wealth and position.

As you may have guessed I classify myself as an ex-premie, however I do not harbour any ill fealing toward M or premies. I am saddened however to hear many stories of people who have been hurt due to there involvement with EV/DLM. Argue if you like that the reason for their hurt is their fault, the relevent point is that they were hurt and in many cases also lost their wealth. The fact remains that their experience happened as a result of their involvement with DLM. My only reason in posting here is to prompt people to question for themselves in the hope that they will not get hurt, in addition I hope to be able in some small way to help others that have been hurt also. Petrou, you maybe happy with M and EV and if you are, that's great, but you cannot deny the many who have been hurt and premie or not our common humanity pleads with us to help them.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 01:47:08 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Sheesh!
Message:
Sheesh! Stay away for a couple weeks and the place is infested with crazed Premies! It's going to take ages to catch up; Vacol's testimonies alone seem to go on for ever.....is there any way to edit out the constant periods?......what is that all about anyway?
And Petrou, my brother in Christ (haw haw haw) why are you so angry? And I am *so* shocked that you deny my experience of the inner light; I spent my time in that little cult, you know, sitting under a blanket with a barogan for hours. I, too, have studied Comparative Religions, and I still don't think that every reference to light is about K. Well, I guess it's time to be accused of ignorance and hypocrisy by a bunch of incoherent mystics.....Gee, it's great to be back!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 09:26:58 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Sheesh!
Message:
Dear Micheal,
I have read your posts in the past and noticed that you were often working, as a carpenter, I thought, at a convent. I wondered how you got the job or jobs at convents and never considered that you were a priest. I read that you were an Episcopal priest while you were off the forum in the last 2 weeks, now it all makes sence! Welcome back. You'll get no harrassment from me!
Robyn
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 10:11:45 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: P.S. to robyn
Message:
Hi Robyn -
Just to let you know (and it can be hard to get these things straight) that Bill Burke (also known as bb, bill, **, will, boik, and you name it) is the one who was working as a carpenter at a convent. (Or at least he's the one who talked about it on here.)

Katie

P.S. Haven't had a chance to mail your tapes yet. I will soon.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 10:16:27 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: P.S. to robyn
Message:
Dear Katie,
Thanks Katie, I have a hard time keeping things straight, as you can see. As Brian said yesterday, Blonde roots run deep! I was thinking I was starting to get everyone straight! Back to the drawing board!
Welcome back anyway Mickey!
Robyn
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 10:08:05 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Sheesh!
Message:
Hey Fadda Michael - Glad you are back. I posted that quote from you about how you didn't think Jesus gave this Knowledge and was immediately forced to defend your reputation and credentials from a howling mob. Now you can do it yourself!

Seriously, glad you're back.
Your lapsed friend,
Katie
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 10:19:23 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Sheesh!
Message:
Michael:

Welcome back. Wondered where you'd gone. Funny you should mention that about the periods. I've a post somewhere attempting to instruct him in the proper use of ellipses, but then he doesn't listen to me very much. Too busy 'dancing in the dragons jaws.'

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 14:50:21 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Scott T.
Subject: Sheesh!
Message:
Robyn, Katie, and Scott,
Thank you for your kind welcome. And thank you, Katie, for defending my credentials. What a nutty place this is, but full of fun things to read. I enjoyed the 'M is a mirror' discussion; I think he is a broken fun-house mirror, now there's a reflection!!
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 05:52:56 (EST)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Sheesh!
Message:
I'm not angry:I'm rebuking the sinners Mickey.I'm talking to them in their own lingo:to a jew I'll be a jew,to a roman I'll be a roman etc. They ignore logic and only prick up their ears when you give it to em. I've had many unanswered perfectly logical arguments.
You'll catch up especially if you check out the archive and the latest threats made to GMJ by people here on the net.
I don't know what you experienced with your time with GMJ but I had some amazing spiritual experiences.
P.S.I am a practising Christian.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 01:42:21 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Potty Mouths...
Message:
Greetings,

I have been reading some recent posts and noticed a lot of vulgar language. I'm wondering if this behavior is due to anything in particular? I've noticed it from both premies and ex-premies alike.

GAGBWY

-gumby
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 10:22:22 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: Potty Mouths...
Message:
What makes a word vulgar? We're told when we're young which words are vulgar; they're usually connected to sex or genitals or excrement, but none of these things are vulgar. Taboos make these things vulgar. Many times people use vulgar language to address things or people they think are vulgar; I know I do. I could use the word vulgar, instead of a vulgar word, but it wouldn't have the same effect for me. Isn't 'vulgar' a vulgar word?
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 10:40:53 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Potty Mouths...
Message:
Rick:

This is a bit long-winded. I just had my morning coffee. One of the earlier translations of the Bible was called the 'Vulgate.' I think that was because it was a translation from Latin, through the Germanic Languages, into English (not sure about the when and where of the last stage). 'Vulgar' was the word the Romans used to refer to the Germanic Tribes. Perhaps someone else knows more about this, but it supports the concept that it's an 'us' vs. 'them' notion rooted in cultural relativism. It seems that it's a generalized notion having to do with the difference between the urban centers of 'high' culture, and the village or tribal centers of 'superstition.' The same thing went on in the Islamic world, but never reached the stage where the urban centers achieved a decisive victory, as they did in the West during the Renaissance and Reformation.

So the upshot is: 'bad' or 'vulgar' language (vernacular in most cases) = superstition.

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 11:37:16 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Potty Mouths...
Message:
Scott,
You took a few leaps that I couldn't see were connected. Practically speaking, if an individual violates someone and admits that was their intention, what is the difference between calling them a jerk or an asshole? And how would it be superstitious to call them an asshole? Is it because it implies evil, and evil is superstitious? What's the difference between calling someone an asshole because of their ethnic origins and calling someone an asshole because they molested your child? I realize the origins of vulgarity point to certain meanings, but vulgarity in modern language is the most extreme negative expression available. The most common objection to vulgarity is the discomfort with distaste. From my perspective, those that deny their distaste, anger and hatred, object to vulgarity.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 15:01:14 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Potty Mouths...
Message:
Rick:

Darn it! Quit asking hard questions! Let's see..

The most common objection to vulgarity is the discomfort with distaste. From my perspective, those that deny their distaste, anger and hatred, object to vulgarity.

Both discomfort and distaste are subjective experiences, so what you have stated is an hypothesis concerning the relationship between denial (to self and/or others) and the objection to 'vulgarity.' Those who are in denial object to vulgarity. Whether or not this is true is subject to empirical test. You say 'from my perspective' so I assume this is an opinion? Is it substantiated, as far as you know? I suspect it is not, but don't really know. From a commonsense viewpoint (which can certainly be fallacious in some instances) I can object to vulgarity even if I acknowledge my discomfort. In other words, there are larger issues than my personal discomfort. Those larger issues are societal and cultural, etc. Thinking out loud: I regard the word 'asshole' as prejudicial on its face, hence a form of superstition. Of course there are degrees of prejudice and superstition. Does that make sense?

-Scott
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 12:47:58 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Theoretical...
Message:
Hi Rick, Scott

Greetings to you both.

I don't want to really get too theoretical, or analytical,
or superstitious. I just was making an observation. I find it easier to maintain rapport with a person when I'm not being called something offensive. I think some of the language written here can be globally considered offensive.

GAGBWY

-gumby
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 06:29:46 (EST)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Potty Mouths...
Message:
What a convoluted way to not admit your wrong.Pseudo-intellectualising to show us all what a wonderful erudite person you really are.Do you really think anyone is being fooled other than youself? You could have at least thrown in a few expletives for good measure.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 06:25:08 (EST)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Potty Mouths...
Message:
It becomes clearer and clearer that many of the people here do not have an ethical system intact.They have lost the ability to discern right from wrong and feel that any specious odd argument is enough to convince anyone.Combine this with the actual threats made and Voila you have some dangerous psychos on your hands.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 13:19:32 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: Potty Mouths...
Message:
>I have been reading some recent posts and noticed a lot of vulgar language. I'm wondering if this behavior is due to anything in particular?

Yeah, people like to swear.
They also drink and smoke when nobody is looking.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 13:39:20 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: gumby
Subject: Foul Mouths
Message:
Hi Gumby - I don't think this foul language thing you've been noticing is of recent origin. Maybe there's been an increase in it lately, but I've observed it pretty consistently throughout the forum. I think people swear to put emphasis in their postings - Mili has used the word 'Nazi' to similar effect.

I tend to swear without premeditation when I am upset because everyone in my family did (even my mama). I don't cuss as much on the forum as I do in real life because I have to type my posts. I have used swear words on occasion on the forum when I felt that I needed them. I hope this doesn't offend you - I know it offends some people and I am sorry.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 14:04:21 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: Potty Mouths...
Message:
Possible reasons for vulgar language on the forum:

Tax time in the USA;

Inundation with the Monica Lewinsky story and/or jelousy about the President's active sex life;

Seinfeld being cancelled;

Too many people have seen Titanic too many times;

Celine Dionne;

That ugly outfit Helen Hunt wore at the Academy Awards (it looked like she rolled in the bed sheets and wore them! And were those helicopter blades Sigourney Weaver had on her head?);

A feeling of frustration at how poorly the tobacco industry is being treated these days;

The unfortunate demise of Reggie White;

Frustration with the fact that Dick Morris is considered a serious political commentator on national television; and

The Jerry Springer Show.
Back To Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 16:02:33 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Potty Mouths...
Message:
Nice list, JW. You forgot one item:

Petrou

VP
Back To Index -:- Top of Index