Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 4 | |
From: Apr 19, 1998 |
To: Apr 29, 1998 |
Page: 3 Of: 5 |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 19:33:25 (EST)
From: Bruce Email: phoenix@b024.aone.net.au To: Everyone Subject: Celestial Wonder Message: Dear Everyone, Have a look at the Eastern sky,before dawn. The planets Venus and Jupiter are dancing together. On the 23rd and 24th the crescent moon will appear to touch them. If you live in Africa, India, or Arabia, the moon will for a time cover both. Its a sight of exquisite beauty. Take some time out from the debate, the bitterness,the anger, who's right, who's wrong. Beauty and ugliness will always exist. When I choose to see the beauty within, I consequently see more clearly the beauty around me. We all have the beauty within. Its really very simple. M. has been and continues to be of assistance to me on this inner journey. I understand that the questions are within me, and so are the answers. I am grateful for this life. Bruce Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 19:42:50 (EST)
From: rip van winkle Email: None To: Bruce Subject: Celestial Wonder Message: Will he be assisting you at the moment of death? He said in 97 to remember him at the moment of death. care to comment on that celestial wonder? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 23:36:45 (EST)
From: Bruce Email: None To: rip van winkle Subject: time to wake up rip Message: Dear Rip, I suspect this is a loaded question.! However, since I've ignored you up till to now, as much to do with time constraints as anything else, I'll treat this as a genuine. I think from memory that M. was quoting Krishna at the time. According to the story, Krishna revealed his true identity to his one student, Arjuna. I expect that Krishna was advising Arjuna to remember his true nature, not his physical form. I understood that M. was implying that things have not changed since Krishna was around and that remaining aware of that internal and eternal presence was a good thing to do at the moment of leaving ones body. The awareness of that presence is fulfillment. If I take anything with me , I'd like to take that feeling. I don't think it means thinking of M. in a physical sense. Hope this helps with your question. Bruce Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 02:12:49 (EST)
From: Mark Email: None To: Bruce Subject: time to wake up rip Message: 'i Think' 'I Expect' Don't think or expect. It was a May program '97 in LA. He said ME, at Death It made my wife sick. If the image of Mr Rawat is soothing to you and you choose to use it as your Soma of choice so be it. That is exactly what keeps Mr Rawat's Empire churning But don't accuse the awake of sleeping and stay close to the ostrich cult ! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 08:57:31 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: bb Subject: letter to Jim Hession Message: Dear Bill, I think you are Mark here but then I thought Mickey the P. was the carpenter for the nuns so what do I know. Anyway my daughter will see Jim on 4/30 and will deliver a message from you if I have it time to email or snail mail it to her before that date. Otherwise we will get it to him at a latter date. Just wanted you to know the timing on our end. There is no rush really. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 18:20:32 (EST)
From: bill burke Email: None To: Bruce Subject: time to let it rip Message: In the fable of krishna, or for some, the nonfiction story of krishna, krishna had a stability of behaviour that resonated with his reputed lord of the heart status. When the devotees were around, he knew what to do with them and not just stay aloof and at a distance. Also, I dont recall a regular round of hateing the staff to manipulate their behaviours. I presume you know i am referring to the regular fury of prem rawat at odd unneeded moments. If krishna revealed himself to one, well, prem rawat was by no means as stingy as that. He clearly proclaimed to us that he was the lord and we surely believed him. Most people that follow him dont follow the breath except when they try to sit and 'meditate'. If feeling that feeling was the thing to do at the time of death, why is the focus so distracted into the vast subjects prem rawat brings up at events and why the concern with himself? His vision and his relateing to this 'illusion' as he would call this place ,ala kabir, does not work for the person who would treat the poseing as lord as a reality. If I treat as reality that he IS the occasional master of life and the one who is krishna of the age, I end up disappointed because he is NOT. He must truly not believe in this himself or his words at events would be different. Certainly you, well,I assume here, so let me say ME. I knew and know and WAS definately the type that was the gopi type and MANY have embraced wholeheartedly the belief that rawat was the lord he claimed to be. Where are these stalwart ones? Crushed by the truth, they left. So now I guess we are back to the concept that krishna revealed himself to One. Meaning, SOMEONE knows rawat is lord and THEY are convinced by REAL evidence. I needed no 50 headed monster to believe. Sure, I know for a fact that the running wave has deep peace. I know the moving air has deep peace. I wake up feeling love inside and it is flowing in my breath. Be that as it may, I am not alive with an incarnation of god handy to follow no matter what the advertising claims. Sure it would be nice, Sure prem rawat is playing god again more and more. The krishna idea that 'he who identifies with the divine' comes to me, That quote from that book is the source of SO MUCH pretending in india. HEY! I can identify with the divine! Guess I can have the assumption of realisation and pretend to others that I am somehow more advanced than they are and who cares about the future repercussions of my pretense? Who cares what effect my words and behaviours have on the future children that grow up in households that follow me as lord? Who cares since it is all illusion anyway? At least when I was around I got to play god and have my selfish fury on my subjects. I care. I care. I care. Prem rawat shows all the signs of someone in the wrong. The so called oneness has allowed him to have his choices and he has made them. Too bad for him the oneness is concious. And not a pushover. He thinks he has standards. Well, they are the wrong standards. any response bruce? I am genuine. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 09:23:45 (EST)
From: Bruce Email: None To: bill burke Subject: time to let it rip Message: Dear bill, Its a bit hard to know how to respond to you. I can only tell you how it is for me. When I read what you have written, I see a person torn between hate and devotion. One part of you seems to want to believe that M is what you wanted and believed him to be, while another part of you wants to keep believing critical stuff about M. Personally, I think you are mistaken about his mother, for example. If you really knew M. you could not believe such a crazy idea that he would 'ban' his mother. You only have to see how he is with his family to see that. As for him yelling at people, well I've been around him a lot, and only heard him raise his voice a couple of times, both times were when someone was really smartarsed to him. I have seen him in hundreds of situations and people love being in his presence. In Australia particularly, heaps of people get really close to him as a regular occurence. None of these people are rolling in money either. I don't know about your wife being upset, but as I said before, I think M was quoting Krishna, and therefore said me because thats what Krishna would have said I presume. |
Date: Fri, Apr 24, 1998 at 00:00:27 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: Bruce Subject: time Message: +I will respond to your post up top tomorrow but I wanted to let you know I am not Mark. Mark is Mark. I think Mark is the most interesting gospel in the story of jesus/yeshua. I dont think I will use any other normal first name. I am not trying to confuse identities, just be creative. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 08:20:23 (EST)
From: Bruce Email: None To: Bruce Subject: rip Message: test un deux trois Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:38:35 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: None To: anyone Subject: Pointless advice Message: Most people are unconscious when they die and aren't thinking about anything. Those who are conscious are usually fighting for their life. Whatever happened to the other ridiculious 'remember the word when you die' advice? Since you stop breathing when you die, this advice is equally pointless. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 18:13:14 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Penultimate truth Message: All: I am getting fed up with this pip-squeak Petrou and his pseudo-scholarly nonsense (as well as his pseudo-justice nonsense and pseudo anything nonsense). Have been 'out of town' for awhile but prior to leaving enjoyed what I figured was a nice gentle exchange with Vayu (Vacol) on the 'ultimate judge' thread. Got back in town today and found this from Petey: Try these:JC,Einstein,prof.Hawking,Shakespeare.They were all into the search for ultimate truth.Its a great topic,how do you get off ignoring it?? I doubt if the physicists in the bunch would admit to being in search of 'ultimate truth.' Even if they sought a 'unified field theory' I doubt if any would acknowledge that such a thing had much to do with ultimate truth. As for JC, well he was about ultimate truth I guess, but that's just tautological. The point is 'ultimate' means 'impractical.' You can't make informed choices regarding 'ultimate truth,' because you don't know it, or if you did your choices would either be already determined or inconsequencial, so the only reason to talk about it is aesthetic. There is at least some practicality in enjoying oneself. Which brings us to Shakespeare. 'To be or not to be' is about as penultimate as Shakespeare gets. This is a soliloquy about suicide, and expresses the regret that some humans have about the unknown consequences of ceasing to exist. It is expressionistic. It certainly does not propose that the questions asked are answerable, at least not by a choice Hamlet or any of us has available. If that were the case there would be no play. It is a lament by a disturbed person. He is disturbed not 'by chance' but rather 'by circumstance,' which he calls 'outrageous.' The play is about those, or in a larger sense, any outrageous circumstances. Would we read or attend a play entirely about chance? Perhaps, just for the experience associated with absurdity. In short, even expressionistically drama is about living not about 'being alive.' You cannot choose to have a meaningful life, in my humble opinion. You can choose to make meaningful choices whenever possible, and trust that this may add up to a meaningful life. When faced with a situation about which you can't make a meaningful choice you will be stumped. Petey, old boy, this is not rocket science, or even physics. Are you trying to distract us, or are you simply distracted? -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 18:21:02 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Penultimate truth Message: Scott, I don't think anyone would mistake old Petrou as being in the fast reading group. I wanted to mention something about his reference to Shakespere as well, and I appreciate your thorough responses to him, but really, I think Petrou's posts speak for themselves and are some of the best representations of premie-speak I have seen yet. Please don't scare him off, he's doing a great job. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 18:23:38 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: JW Subject: Penultimate truth Message: Point taken. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 09:04:15 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Scott T. Subject: welcome back Message: Dear Scott, I haven't been on the forum much lately but I noticed you weren't posting when I was 'cruising' through. Welcome back. Maybe you should take a break from Petrou. It works for me. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 19:16:09 (EST)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Penultimate truth Message: Before Einstien died he puportedly said something like ..'if i had my time again I would explore That which is beyond the field of relativity. |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 20:48:09 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Penultimate truth Message: I certainly can't speak for Einstein, but I'd like to know what more he could have done with one lifetime. Perhaps he had regrets. Perhaps what he was talking about was his inability to contribute to a unified field theory. It is certainly the case that he was almost obsessed with that toward the end of his life. Since you are paraphrasing it's hard to know. But I can't make choices based on the totality of truth because I know just a little less than nothing about it. If you can do better, more power to you. Incidentally, you asked at one point what one gets by sharing 'relative truth.' My answer was 'relative happiness.' Don't know if you made that connection. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 02:06:22 (EST)
From: gumby Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Penultimate truth Message: Hi Scott, Slightly off the track. Penultimate is one of my favorite words period. Thanks for using it. GAGBWY -gumby Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 18:10:41 (EST)
From: Vayu Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Going in Message: I sat still and went in, |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 19:51:57 (EST)
From: rip van winkle Email: None To: Vayu Subject: Going in Message: The way of the lie Is NOT who what or why. but when someone will tell you think of me when you die. when thier own mom was left in the lurch, guess she should have brought those boys to church. Wether you sit, or stand or walk, or think or sing or in the middle of talk, the running wave is with you, the moveing air is there, its not about your posture, do you feel life with care. fine if I show you so thank me ok, but if I am lost in ego, and I lose my way, yet I claim to be god well, just walk away! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 20:01:53 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: rip van winkle Subject: Going in Message: Very good response, rip. I guess we're now in for a few rounds of pseudo-cosmic poetry Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 20:47:47 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: rip van winkle Subject: Going in Message: Very good. Shall we continue the verses? The techniques are mine No one should you tell Because if you do You're going to hell If people can get them Without coming to me Ill have not a pot In which I can pee I offer them knowledge It's how they get hooked Later devotion is hoisted And their money gets booked The premies can't speak But I do not sigh Then many more videos They will have to buy Come to Australia Come kiss my feet As a lift for my ego It cannot be beat I am the master And isn't it odd? I no longer mention How I used to be god No, that I am god I do not opine But with a wink and a nod We all know I'm divine Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 16:43:11 (EST)
From: Vayu Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Vunerability Message: I like to be vunerable , To reveal , Not to conceal , To be raw and real , I want to heal ; To cry out my pain , To give from my joy , To see in the eyes of others , My sisters and brothers ; But what if I meet , Those who throw spears , My vunerability scorned , The worst of my fears ; For a sensitive soul , Ridicule , hate and negativity , Burns like a coal , Distorting thoughts and activity ; Yet vunerability must be , Feeling through eyes that see , Melting I into we, Daring to love ...in glee; So my challenge put forth , Again I will try , To meet with kindness and strengh , The vunerable cry. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 16:55:50 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vayu Subject: Vunerability Message: I'll bite. What is 'vunerability?' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 17:14:07 (EST)
From: Vayu Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Vunerability Message: My intellectual friend, Scott, |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 18:09:29 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Vunerability Message: Scott, anybody knows what 'vunerability' is, it's the ability to 'vuner.' And what a great and rare ability that is! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 17:07:49 (EST)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Transformation Message: I am transformation , Many hate me , And yet I would transform , Hate into love; Many say I am an illusion, Human-life is too limited, That is their conclusion, For them I am omitted; I say transformation is real, True glory awaits, Despite darkness and lies, The spirit elates; But truth is so sharp, For those who are hurt, The mind inflates huge, To avoid is the ruse; Oh if only we'd stop, Let go of the shield, The Self within all, Would smile , ego would yield!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 18:16:25 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Transformation Message: You've apparently transformed 'vulnerability' into 'vunerability.' How does that work? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 18:24:38 (EST)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Transformation Message: To my shame , my lack of formal schooling shows through. I tend to spell phonetically(is that spelt right)? Poor imperfect mortalality ! Hope my spelling errors do not annoy you too much. Thanks for pointing it out . You're better than a dictionary! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 18:21:45 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: It's zen Message: I get it. It's zen. By transforming 'vulnerable' into 'vunerable' Vacol makes himself vulnerable to being criticized about his spelling. You are just too clever, darn you! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 19:04:51 (EST)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: It's zen Message: Darn me, I erred again, |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 21:13:28 (EST)
From: To the poet, Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Transformation Message: Please, just shoot me now and get it over with. I can't take anymore. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 14:21:20 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Everyone Subject: My 2 cents Message: Wow, I am so glad I'm not still a premie. I am so glad I don't have to bow down to Prem Rawat, aka Maharaji, he who used to call himself Guru Maharaj Ji. And before anyone freaks out at the utter negativity in that statement consider this: I do give thanks to that force which keeps me alive, it's just that I don't attribute my very existence to the magical powers of Prem Rawat. So, is it 'negative' to say that I prefer to not go through M when I pray to God? This forum exists so that people who followed the self-proclaimed Lord of the Universe can get together and share a few laughs, a few tears, sort out and recall the details of the devotee's life, and generally rejoice that we have somehow found our way out of slavery to the person who claimed/claims? to be the current Manifestation of God in Human Form. What else is going on here? People who still worship Prem Rawat as a deity don't like us. They don't like the fact that we don't share their boundless enthusiasm for Prem Rawat. I can see why they do not like us, but two questions immediately come to mind. 1. Why do they persist in staying here reading our views and opinions if those views and opinions are so distasteful to them? 2. Why don't they have their own forum or web page so they can share their good news, and their opinions and views, with the world and with each other? I speak for myself but I am pretty sure that other ex'es concur in this: I believe following Prem Rawat is very wierd. I believe this forum exists for us to heal and cleanse ourselves from this wierdness that we participated in. Premies, we are not going away. We have been silent for too long as it is. M has had a free ride for 25 years, and if a few disgruntled ex followers pose that much danger to his work, then it's his own fault. If M really is who he says he is, then we pose no threat to him, right? And if he isn't who he says he is, then we do pose a threat to him, right? So the only way a premie can be worried about this Forum is if they suspect the latter, right? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 17:07:23 (EST)
From: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: John Subject: My 2 cents Message: Well, it all boils down to a matter of trust, doesn't it? If you don't trust Maharaji, you'll probably try to find all sorts of justification for that, and if you do trust him, that's what is going to be real for you. I personally find it ludicrous to say that Maharaji wanted me to be his slave, or any of the other outrageous things. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 17:18:09 (EST)
From: Vayu Email: None To: Mili Subject: My 2 cents Message: Often I have said, |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 19:24:13 (EST)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Vayu Subject: My 2 cents Message: One of the last things I remember M saying was, ``Put your trust in that which has proven to be worthy of your trust, and in nothing else.'' I bet he never imagined how seriously I might take that advice. -Still Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 23:18:53 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Vayu Subject: My 2 cents about Vayu Message: Vacol/Vayu, I assume that you are the same person. What happened to the 'free-thinking' person who came on here questioning M and K and saying there should be free discussion and debate? Then this same person said that he was going to look for answers to his doubts from M and then let us know what the answers were. Now you are on here writing poetry? Maybe you just went to a local video event, or you were more than one person all along. What gives? VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 02:04:53 (EST)
From: Vayu Email: None To: VP Subject: My 2 cents about Vayu Message: I am multi -talented, Vp.......and so humble along with it!! As for the other ? I am still in a process of gathering , listening and sifting. And making phone calls. Be patient!!!! Vacol Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 09:24:50 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Vayu Subject: My 2 cents about Vayu Message: Vayu, Okay. I'm a really patient person. Notice how I have yet to cuss out Petrou... :) Talents are a wonderful thing. Thanks for the clarification, VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 19:17:07 (EST)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Mili Subject: My 2 cents Message: You've hit the nail on the head, Mili! The entire reason I became an ex-premi can be summed up in the words, ``I woke up to the fact that M was not worthy of my trust.'' -Still Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 17:43:48 (EST)
From: Vayu-Vacol Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Understand Message: Laugh into words, |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 17:54:14 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: John Subject: My 2 cents Message: Very well said John and likely true, but I really think it is more complicated than that. I think there are a lot of people who might say they are 'premies' who know deep down that they really haven't been listening to their own feelings and common sense for quite some time. That, in my opinion, is why they are attracted to this site, I think, in large numbers. They are fascinated by the open discussion and the frank and open 'spade-is-a-spade' comments. They don't get any of that in the premie kingdom. It simply isn't allowed. And I think many premies are very hungry for it. On the other hand, most premies, like I did as a premie, really want very badly for the whole Big M trip to be true. If it's not, their whole world comes tumbling down. Now, most of us ex-premies know what the 'world-tumbling-down' scenario feels like. It's kind of scary at first, but ultimately it is liberating and full of growth. But the prospect to people who have been following this guy they don't even know for years is pretty daunting and what we say sounds like a threat to their very survival/identity. So, some premies will become kind of ruthless and nasty in defending this guy who is supposed to be supplying them with satisfaction and love. The contradiction is lost on premies like Petrou, Vacol and that especially obnoxious 'A Premie.' Plus, in my experience, premies are a pretty fearful group of people. They are afraid to do or say the wrong thing that is not in line with Big M's wishes, and it isn't clear what he expects of them anymore anyway. In addition, I find a lot of premies embarrassed to even say they ARE premies and are still following this 'quasi-guru' former child-master. And I find it very amazing how fearful premies are to reveal their identities on the forum. I know it's not ex-premies they fear. I think it's other premies and Big M himself that they are afraid of. But while confronting, the forum might also be fascinating to premies. Plus, I have never seen any group of people that are more into gossip than premies. Do you remember what it was like? It was just incredible. Accordingly, this site and what is said on it, are likely common knowledge among most premies along the grape vine. I'll bet it's fairly irrestible for most premies to check it out. So, I think the forum and the website serves that function as well, for premies, questioning premies, and newly ex-premies to get some support and walk into the fresh air of discussion Big M and what he is about with no holes barred. I think that's something they might well be starved for in the controlled Maharaji world. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 18:19:31 (EST)
From: Vayu Email: None To: JW Subject: My 2 cents Message: I think you have stated much (not All) as it is . If M was sincere what changes would you suggest? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 18:39:00 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Vayu Subject: My 2 cents Message: Hello? Can you elaborate on what you are talking about? Do you mean, what would I suggest Big M do to try to rectify the fact that he is a charlatan? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 18:58:57 (EST)
From: Vayu Email: None To: JW Subject: My 2 cents Message: No ...JW...whether you accept it or not ...'.BIG M IS A CHARALATAN' IS YOUR ASSUMPTION. Assumptions may or may not be correct. I am asking you to suspend your opinions about big M for a moment and imagine that he may be sincere but in need of advice. What advice would you give him......to improve his ...mission of bringing K to people ?...again imagine that K really is significant.....(as some ex's still realise). Is this clear? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 19:27:37 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Vayu Subject: My 2 cents Message: Well, I have a lot of suggestions, but let me limit myself to 10 as a start: 1. Give up a lot of the fabulous wealth and use the resources to let more people know knowledge is available. Live a more 'uppper-middle-class' lifestyle. Get rid of the ridiculously costly plane and travel by commercial airliner (first class, of course). Sell a couple of the residences, the fleet of luxury cars, etc. and tell the premies he doesn't want that stuff, he really is focused on spreading knowledge and put his attention there; 2. Actually associate directly with the premies, and anyone else who is interested. Do not just associate with them only in controlled programs and through videos. Walk among them, talk to them, get to know them personally, don't continue to wall himself off from others, thus leading to his identity problems, and the fact that he can't deal with those who disagree with him. 3. Let the premies give satsang. Let them speak publicly about the experience they claim to be having, and tell them to be honest about their experience, including expressing any doubts or misgivings they might have. 4. Don't avoid the press or the internet. Use them to let people know what he's doing and to answer questions directly. 5. (Very important, absolutely essential in my view). Speak openly and honestly about his past, and about such things as lord of the universe, the ashrams, the fact that a lot of people got hurt following him, and take responsbility for it, and speak about it honestly and openly, saying he's sorry for that, and what steps he has taken to prevent it from happening again. Meet with former devotees and address their concerns directly, instead of avoiding or ignoring all such contacts and refusing to take responsibility, instead blaming the premies, the ex-premies, or anyone other than himself. Open himself to direct questioning by ex-premies and others, and answer his goddam correspondence, like any other responsible person. In short, come clean and show some integrity. 6. Do not continue that ridiculous, hindi practice of giving darshan and doing that ridiculous dance at programs. I think it comes from his pathological desire to be worshipped, and from the 70s premies who want it, and he does it to keep them, and their money, involved. It is completely unrelatable to the vast majority of normal people. 7. If we wants to spread knowledge to people, he is going to have to let more people than only himself reveal it. 8. Give up the 'devotion' and 'gratitude' stuff and be straight with people, saying openly and directly, and unequivably, that he is NOT god, he is NOT the perfect master, he is just a human being, and what he is here to do is reveal meditation techniques to people that might help them in their lives and give them a nice experience. Period. No hindi devotional trip, no sappy devotional love songs, none of that. Say openly that that stuff in the past was a big mistake and he is not an object of worship, and, in fact, it was a big error to get into that like he has. 9. Make it very clear that he is into the personal development of human beings, and that he, and his knowledge, might be just one step in the process for people. Encourage people to move on from following him when they have outgrown what he has to offer. Be honest about it and don't try to create a devotional, personality cult, with him, as opposed to knowledge, at the center, which is what he does now. and 10. Miscellaneous: Go on a diet, get a little exercise, brush up on his English skills, put less grease in his hair, stop sticking his daughter up there singing incestuous love songs to him, tell the premies to get lives and stop flying around to his programs, get out of the video business and let the premies speak, get rid of the trinkets sold at programs like pictures, tote bags, chocolates, coffee mugs, and other useless, but profitable, paraphinalia. Also, I suggest he go into some intensive psychiatric therapy to deal with his megalomania problem and to help him cope with accepting his true identity, as opposed to the inflated one that he seems to hold. Also, join AA or otherwise look into that drinking problem. But he might have a little problem accepting a 'higher power' because I think he believes he is as high as it gets. Well, that's a start. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 19:55:41 (EST)
From: Vayu and Vacol Email: None To: JW Subject: My 2 cents Message: Thankyou JW, Very interesting and quite witty. As for true ....hmmmmm...how many hours (or weeks do we have)? I shall try to respond to every one of your ten-point plan concerning M's redemption and improvement....in time. Let me say that I agree with some of your remarks....no's....2,3 and 5 especially. I partly agree with no's 8 and 9. And I mostly disagree with no's 1, 4, 6, 7 and 10. Therefore I feel that this could lead to an interesting discussion(I've gone right off the word 'debate') if ex's and premies could restrain a bit from over-expressing their relative v 'views'. LET THE DISCUSSION BEGIN! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 21:02:32 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vayu and Vacol Subject: My 2 cents Message: JW: Thanks Joe. That was really stunning. GMJ ought to hire you as a counselor. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 20:10:54 (EST)
From: Vacol Email: None To: JW Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: Commandment ONE. Maharaji, thou shalt give up your wealth and get thyself down to the airport , where thou shalt mix and mingle with regular people. Maharaji, thou shalt experience airport delays and very ordinary food as we regular(upper-middle-class) people have to. Maharaji, thou shalt deal with the chit chat with the first-class passengers, as regular folks do. Furthermore, Maharaji, thou shalt sell off your cars and hire a taxi-cab as other regular premies have to do. Now concealed, not very well , are some of my objections to commandment one. |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 20:20:41 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Vacol Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: It's fairly common knowledge, and has been since the 70s that much of the assets of EV go into supporting that plane. It just doesn't make common sense to continue to finance it, if the spreading of knowledge is the primary goal. The Boeing 707 bankrupted the mission in the early 80s and required significant illegal fundraising. The reason there are such planes is because the Big M is INTO them. He likes to own and fly them. They are more toys for him than sensible means of transportation. Even from an extemely practical point of view, they don't make any sense. Moreover, Maharaji has lots of servants and can have people drive him in ONE extremely luxury car to the airport, sit in a first class club room, and go first class on the plane. He can sell off the FLEETS of luxury cars he has and just keep ONE. He can bring his own food if his stomach is too sensitive. (Actually one of his servants can.) As for listening to 'chit chat' of other human beings, I think that would be really good for him. From what I have seen and heard, he is totally out of touch with the way normal people actually live. I think he believes the world is like he sees on television. What's wrong with 'mixing and mingling' with ordinary people. Is he too good for that? Too good to associate with the people he has supposedly come to save? Who is he, Leona Helmsley? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 20:42:23 (EST)
From: Vacol Email: None To: JW Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: JW... To begin with the bit about just having one car tickled my funny bone. Would M fly his ONE CAR around the world with him? If not exactly where would his ONE CAR be stationed? Next point.....if people choose to support M in whatever way that personally does not bother me . Do you know why ? Because it appears to me that M is doing as much as possible to spread K around the globe,....or do you dis-agree? JW ...how could M ACTUALLY spread K more effectively than he is doing ? I mean do you really think that spending hours and hours in airport terminals is going to help spread K ? As for the other points you make ....well, I hope that will respond to them in his own way ....but overall I am not really with you on commandment 'one' I would like to recieve a perspective from the premie close to M side on this! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 21:02:08 (EST)
From: Vayu Email: None To: JW Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: JW, I think that in regards to the point of Maharaji over-indulging in Expensive toys, like planes and cars and what-nots......It really depends on ; 1) That your claims are factual. 2) Where exactly the money comes from to finance such toys. For instance, if certain very rich people who knew about M's life-style and had no problem funding what to us regular guys might seem extravagant, then I have no problem with that .....at all.....and quite honestly I think that is no-one elses business. On the other hand if the small contributions from your more regular type premies were really funding unnecessary luxeries , I would object. But in my experience the great majority of premies do not contribute finacially anyway....and most who do , very little. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 21:12:47 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Vayu Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: Specious again, Vacol. The source is not the issue. If his prioity was spreading knowledge, that's where the money would go. It's his choice, you know. Not anybody elses. His actions, as to what his priorities are, are much louder than any of his words. Well, all I can say is that I, personally, donated thousands of dollars to M in my involvement and I was just an ordinary working stiff, who also had a trust fund. I also saw ordinary, working premies scratch together millions to finance that Boeing 707 planes, and many people went into debt to give even more. It was pretty disgusting in retrospect. Have you ever been to one of his multiple residences? Have you seen the luxury cars? Have you seen the gold bathroom fixtures? It's quite an experience, let me tell you. It's way, way, beyond just a well-off way to live. It's in a realm all by itself. And you might not be bothered by his lifestyle, but you asked me how I thought he could spread knowledge better. Well, there is a big bunch of money that goes to support him in a style that he doesn't need to live in, and if he really had the right priorities, he might use it to 'spread this knowledge.' But, he doesn't. What does that tell you? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 02:22:37 (EST)
From: Vayu Email: None To: JW Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: JW, you say 'the source is not the issue'. The source of the money is an issue . Who are you to say this is an issue and that is not? I already explained why I think it is an issue. So you have detailed knowledge. Tell me ....tell me about the multiple residences.. tell me every thing you KNOW. How many residences? How many cars ? You said 'a fleet of luxery cars'? How many? What makes? Do they offically belong to M? TELL ME ALL THE DETAILS, PLEASE? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 13:29:06 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Vayu Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: Read my lips, Vacol, the source of the money is not an issue to the question you asked me. That is what is M's priority. The source is not an issue to how he spends it. That's his choice. Let's see, should be spend the money on propogation, or should be spend it on a private luxury plane? Who decides that? That's the issue to which the source of the money is irrelevent. God, have you been living under a rock? Apparently, he has residences in Malibu, London, India, Australia, and I don't know where else. He had a residence in Miami Beach -- don't know if he still has it. According to other reports, he has apartments in other cities, too. Unless he sold off the luxury cars, he has a lot of them. Several Rolls Royces, Citroen, etc. etc.. Others likely have more current information. Can't believe you would be surprised by this, if you have been a premie for any length of time. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 13:32:06 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: JW Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: Vacol, if you are interested in exactly how many luxury cars he has, why don't you ask M for a list, as well as their approximate values and locations. If he has nothing to hide, I'm sure he would be happy to give you the details. Then you can let us all know. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:46:34 (EST)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: JW Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: JW - While I disagree with you on the airplane issue, I'm with you about the cars. I have no idea how many cars M has these days. I heard Marolyn got fed up with the ostentation and asked for (and got) a pickup truck to drive in her everyday travels. I was involved in a 'secret' operation to help find M a 1959 Cadillac. This was just a couple of years ago. So his cars/toys are obviously still important to him. -Still Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 19:02:13 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Still Crazy Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: Thanks for the information on the car. A 1959 Cadillac? Did you find one? What is something he said he specifically wanted? About the plane. Do you think a private $20,000,000 plane is really a practical means of transportation? Clearly the Boeing 707 was ridiculous and even M had to abandon it. It cost too much just just to fuel it. Do you think flying first class is too difficult for him? Why do you think so? Especially given how little he actually has to do for himself, as opposed to what is done for him, and given that he can basically plan his own schedule. The numerous times I have heard him talk about flying planes made me believe that he was INTO flying them and really liked doing it, and that the planes were much more than just transportation. They were recreation and fun for M. And do you think it's environmentally responsible to have a jet to fly around one person? I just got rid of my Jeep Cherokee because I'm reading how destructive those SUVs are to the environment. I ended up with a Subaru Forrester (went from 8 cylinders to 4)and now I feel the Sierra Club won't put me on their hit list. By the way, I highly recommend the car. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 19:52:07 (EST)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: JW Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: Phew! *Lots* of questions! A 1959 Cadillac? Did you find one? I think one was finally found. But by that time, either he'd already found one somewhere else, or the project had been dropped. What is something he said he specifically wanted? Yes, the project was at his instigation. 'A special project for a special person, nudge-nudge, wink-wink.' Do you think a private $20,000,000 plane is really a practical means of transportation? Yes. The number of programs, their scope (i.e. how much of the globe they covered), their frequency, all went up significantly when M got the Gulfstream. (BTW, I think the money for this had to raised in 2 weeks -- he got a used one, and the money had to be raised quickly. Your 'take out loans, max out your credit card' story was repeated with the Gulfstream.) Do you think flying first class is too difficult for him? Why do you think so? It may have more to do with his character (or lack thereof ;) than anything else, but I know that when he used to travel commercially, there would be one program in Spain, then 2 or 3 days later, another in France, then 2 or 3 days later another in Italy, etc, maybe 10 in all over a couple of months. After he could 'come and go as he pleased,' the number and frequency of programs went up -- there would often be a program in Barcelona in the morning and one in Rome the same evening. The numerous times I have heard him talk about flying planes made me believe that he was INTO flying them and really liked doing it I'm sure this is true. I also am relatively sure that the claim that he has logged more flight hours than any other living pilot is also true. And do you think it's environmentally responsible to have a jet to fly around one person? Probably not. However, if spreading K is really his top priority (which I personally don't believe), it's probably a higher priority than environmental considerations. Whether the plane is a toy he enjoys, or an essential part of 'his work,' it made him more accessible and brought him closer to more premis around the world (in a superficial way, I guess) than he had ever been before. -Still Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 21:05:24 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Vacol Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: Specious points, Vacol. They don't address the issue. Not unusual for you. Wherever he goes he stays in the best places and people get the best cars for him, I'm sure. Mother Theresa didn't need her own plane and she did quite well traveling all over the world. The Dali Lama doesn't have his own plane either and does really too. Having a 20-30 million dollar plane to transport ONE person is just ridiculous, in addition to being environmentally irresponsible. And the way he talks constantly about flying those planes. He has them because he LIKES them, oh he the lotus that he is, being in the world but not of it. I was around for that Boeing 707 fiasco, and so many people knew it was ridiculous and financially irresponsible, but the Big M WANTED it SO bad, that we got it for him. Of course, he was tired of it and wanted ANOTHER plane before that one was even COMPLETED, at the cost of millions of dollars. They were just toys to him. Fantastic, expensive, ridiculous toys. I'm saying that spreading knowledge is not his primary goal. HIS lifestyle and HIS toys are the primary goal, and spreading knowledge is secondary. He has to at least appear to be doing the latter to sustain the former. And a lot, if not the majority, of those programs are primarily for the premies, preaching to the converted so to speak. That isn't really spreading knowledge. That's perpetuating a devotional cult. They are basically worship festivals, and I think being worshipped is also a higher priority for him than spreading knowledge. Yes, I think he could be more effective. I mean in the states he has fewer followers than he had 15 years ago. Whatever he is doing is NOT working. Perhaps he should try something else. I mean at this rate.....he will have even fewer followers 10 years from now than he has currently. That ain't good. Something ain't working. But he sure has a nifty plane and lots of nice stuff, now doesn't he? He has been REALLY effective in securing that stuff, right? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 21:34:16 (EST)
From: Vayu Email: None To: JW Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: ' I'm saying that spreading knowledge is not his primary goal. HIS lifestyle and HIS toys are the primary goal, and spreading knowledge is secondary. ' I feel your quote (above) strikes at the heart of your allegations ......at least as far as commandment One is concerned. Okay....now it is out in the open. If it were true , that M 's primary goal was supporting his life-style and spreading K was secondary , I believe that premies in their droves would desert him....and I personally would perceive him in a vastly different way to one I've done for 16 years. IF...IF...IF; JW, THIS A POWERFUL AND EXTRAORDINARY CLAIM. BUT really , how do you know this? And how is anyone else to really KNOW this? But now you have come out and said it I feel sure there will be powerful consequences! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 21:53:40 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Vayu Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: I know this question was to JW but since the answer is such common knowledge, I can't resist answering. How we know maharaji is by his fruits... and they're rotten. He hoodwinked us for years, and some of us for decades. He soaked us for lots of time, energy and money and promised the Heavens, but he delivered an empty bag of tricks, that delivered pain, fear and anxiety. He lives in luxury from donations from people who were promised everything. Realizing that maharaji isn't delivering is a hard process; it means considering that heaven doesn't exist, or that you've wasted a lot of time, money and energy in the wrong place and been fooled; it means considering that you're a fool, it means facing all the people you made a fool of yourself in front of, proclaiming the guru's divinity. A person has lots of reasons to not examine this thing closely. So when you see the extravagence and get some social conscience, you realize the Big M's a fraud. What else do you call someone who sells nothing for a lot of money? Sorry, JW, I couldn't resist.. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 02:49:02 (EST)
From: Vayu Email: None To: Rick Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: These are just GENERAL inuendo's ....interpretations.....RICKS IMAGINATION.....unless you can reveal to me some evidence and ...Rick ,honestly ...I mean this .....why should I believe you? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 10:28:05 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Vayu Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: Oh... see Vayu, or Vacol, or whatever you're name is, the question is why should you believe maharaji? That's the real question, and that answer is the innuendo. Why should you believe me? You shouldn't believe me. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 22:13:16 (EST)
From: gumby Email: None To: Vayu Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: Hi Vayu, (or is it Vacol?) You wrote: If it were true , that M 's primary goal was supporting his life-style and spreading K was secondary, I believe that premies in their droves would desert him....and I personally would perceive him in a vastly different way to one I've done for 16 years. It has been my very real experience that K is m's secondary goal. How do I know this? The main reason is ALL the MYSTIQUE and SECRECY surrounding it. When I was a aspirant I could only go to certain videos. There are videos for aspirants and then there are videos for people who have received K. IF m was truly sincere about spreading K to the world, THEN he would go about that goal in a totally different way. It is that simple. Why make it more complicated? Remember how m always says: 'It is so simple, so simple...'. It is that simple. He is being less than forthright with his followers. Why aren't you questioning him? You see, m needs to keep all the hoopla around K, because if people found out that it is merely a way to have a cool physiological experience, then they wouldn't need him. In fact they would find that they could enjoy it more. I know some premies who literally turn their lives upside down, just to go to the videos, go to the events, etc. It is a sick addiction. Wake up my friend. Truly, I tell you, m won't be with you when you breathe your last breath. In fact m doesn't give a hoot about you right now. Am I wrong? Are you good buddies with him? Do you DISCUSS things in person with him? On the phone? Grace and peace be with my friend. -gumby Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 22:40:56 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: gumby Subject: Aspirant Contradictions Message: gumby, Sounds like my experiences as an aspirant. I have been told that they build all of the knowledge up so that you will be able to experience it when it is given to you. Then M says that everyone has it inside and that it is simple. These two things are contradictory, in my opinion. They tell you that they don't want you to have any preconcieved ideas about knowledge, but then they show all these videos and talk to you about it. If they don't want you to have any ideas, if the experience is so pure and wonderful in and of itself, why not let the experience speak for itself? Why all the build-up? Just another contradiction. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 03:01:21 (EST)
From: Vacol Email: None To: gumby Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: Gumby, your remarks I find almost laughable. Who are you to profess that YOU KNOW how Maharaji should best go about spreading K ? You're comments are full of assumptions and subjective bias and is really not contributing anything useful to this discussion. Who cares about what you think.....about something you obviously don't know much about? Sorry ....but what are your credentials for making the type of statements you have made? What are your inside sources of information? If Maharaji really wanted to spread K ...YOU SAY HE WOULD DO THIS AND NOT THAT. He would do it differently .....so should we trust you then? Why don't you do it better? What presumptious bunk!..... Spread K yourself then? Or are you contributing in some other loving and charitable way? Gee I'm sounding more and more like Jim....eeekkks!! Don't be so predictable and say....never. I KNOW some of you find each other the paragons of wisdom. Vacol ...(don't take it too personally .....Gumby...I'm letting off some steam) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 23:07:14 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Vayu Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: Well, most of the premies HAVE deserted him. But those who haven't, don't have as THEIRr primary goal spreading knowledge either. THEIR primary goal is worshipping and being devoted to HIM. That's why they stay involved and that's why, because of their blind faith and devotion, they don't care about his lavish lifestye and the fact that it's his priority. Not too complicated, really Vayu or Vacol or whatever the hell your name is. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 00:56:51 (EST)
From: Vacol Email: None To: JW Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: JW...(or whatever your name is...Joe something?) please listen carefully......you (and others) are making specific as well as general allegations. And you are backing up these claims with absolutely no hard evidence. Thats a fact! If Maharaji is using premies finacial donations in ways other than they believe to be the case , then I want to see in print....here on the forum the detailed evidence! Otherwise you are simply using inuendo, hearsay, and your complicit imaginations to beat up a scenario. No-one has produced a scrap of evidence. JW...RICK...HAVE YOU PERSONALLY EXPERIENCED FIRST HAND WHAT YOU CLAIM??? IF NOT CAN YOU SUBSTANTIATE YOUR CLAIMS BY WAY OF SOMEONE ELSES HARD EVIDENCE...MR EX...ANON...what do you say? Do you back up what JW AND RICK allege? What does everyone think about JW's ten commandments? JW.....you don't really expect me or anyone in their right mind to just simply believe what you and a few other ex-premies are claiming ....without a thorough investigation,do you? So, if you don't mind I'm going to pick every thing you've said in your 'TEN COMMANDMENTS' apart bit by bit ...and also the responses from you and others. I will not be so stupid as to accept anything people who have personal grudges have to say about someone.....Maharaji or anyone else without some emperical proof. More to follow!!! Vayu Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 01:02:38 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Vacol Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: Vacol, absolutely everthing I have said is based on my personal experience. I am not ASSUMING anything. So, your little 'no evidence' retort is a pile of crap. And I think the Big M's actions speak for themselves. That is evidence. Do you have ONE SHREAD of evidence to the contrary, except of course your insipid excuses? I'm all ears. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 01:31:09 (EST)
From: Vacol Email: None To: JW Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: HOW DARE YOU SPEAK TO ME THAT WAY YOU ARROGANT BA------D! YOU JUST HATE TO BE PUSHED AGAINST THE WALL AND ASKED HARD QUESTIONS. YOU are a coward who sits behind a computor wildly allerging all types of things and when asked to qualify your claims you cannot stand the heat. I HAVE NOT ONCE SAID YOU ARE LYING . But why should I believe you ? You belong to a very small group of ex-premies (those here in this forum) SOME WHO CLAIM SPECIFIC CONCRETE THINGS ABOUT M. If you say M is a fool ....or a charalatan ...that's one thing .....but to say that he is defrauding premies by deceiving them about where their donations are going ....and that he has been involved in 'illegal' activities......and that spreading K is secondary to that of supporting his life style .....where is the evidence? I SHALL KEEP ASKING THIS UNTIL YOU PRODUCE SOMETHING TANGIBLE .. Vayu Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:32:50 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Vacol Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: Oooooooo, Vacol. HAve I touched a nerve there old boy? Hmmm. Dost thou protest too much? Could it be you see some logical truth in what I have suggested? If you didn't why on earth would you get so upset. Try some meditation. Maybe it will keep you from doing even the miniscule amount of thinking you do. As you know, free thinking is the death knell for a happy premie. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 14:42:06 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: JW Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: Oh, man, JW, you said 'death knell for a happy premie.' You're gonna be in trouble with Petrou and M's lawyers now! Oh, man!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:36:37 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Vacol Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: And further, you twit, YOU asked ME what were my suggestions for the Big M, REMEMBER? Again, everything I have said is based on my own personal experience. Please, specifically, what do you consider an unsubstantiated allegation. And again, what evidence do you have to the contrary? You have yet to posit anything whatsoever. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 18:08:03 (EST)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Vacol Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: I SHALL KEEP ASKING THIS UNTIL YOU PRODUCE SOMETHING TANGIBLE. It's just simple logic, Vacol/Vayu. If spreading K was his top priority, he would put the majority of his resources into that, keeping for himself only what he needed to survive. The evidence to the contrary is his vast array of possessions. He has more than 50 suits, which he says 'I never believe in buying anything but the best.' In the same video in which he said that, he was talking about how the salesman was showing him a $500 suit, and he chewed the guy out: 'Show me the good stuff.' In another video he said he has a collection of over 100 watches. The one he was wearing in that video cost over $30,000 by itself. And look at his array of very expensive cars. The evidence you're looking for is presented by M himself. -Still Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 19:16:47 (EST)
From: Veep Email: None To: Still Crazy Subject: Over 100 watches Message: Still, Why would M say that in a video? (Do remember which one it was?) What was this is reference to? VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 19:29:10 (EST)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Veep Subject: Over 100 watches Message: I think M gets carried away sometimes with how wonderful he thinks he is, and doesn't realize the kind of impression he might be creating. In this particular segment, he was talking about how he's not a technophobe. The following quote is from memory and probably somewhat inaccurate: ``I have nothing against technology. In fact, I love technology. I'm always taking things apart and putting them back together. For example, I love watches. I love to take them apart. And I have lots of them. I have a big collection of them. I must have over a hundred watches, blah, blah, blah.'' -Still Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 02:40:25 (EST)
From: Vayu Email: None To: JW Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: 'Wherever he goes he stays in the best places and people get the best cars for him, I'm sure. Mother Theresa didn't need her own plane and she did quite well traveling all over the world.' Quote from JW. 'I'M SURE', You said.....what does I'M SURE supposed to mean. That sounds like I guess, or I imagine, ...'he(M) stays in the best places and people get the best cars(WHY JW? WHAT ABOUT HIS OWN FLEET OF CARS? I'M CONFUSED) for him, I'M SURE.' Do you know anyone who travels as much as M ? Is this not the reason he needs a very fast plane? Is this not proof of how seriously he is about about spreading K? Have you seen a yearly itenary lately? Did Mother THERASA travel around the world heaps , every year? Your logic is very weak. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 13:00:41 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Vayu Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: I have been personally involved in preparing, arranging and observing the accommodations the Big M gets when he travels. Believe me, they are the best available. In Hartford, Connecticut, just the possibility that the Big M might come speak to a bunch of premies, got us to get the very best townhouse in town, scrub it from top to bottom, get the best food available, and rent a Lincoln Towncar to pick him up from the airport. And he didn't even show up. At programs, an entire living quarters was built behind stage, equivalent to a house, just for M and his family to hang out while he wasn't out speaking or having his feet kissed. In Miami, he would ride to and from the program in his luxury motorhome which has, for example, gold plumbing fixtures. (I know I repeat that a lot, but it still amazes me.) After he went to Brazil, the Big M complained publicly in a satsang that he was forced to be driven around in a FORD and he thought it was reprehensible and said, with great derision 'I guess that's what they think a luxury car is in Brazil.' He also complained about some penthouse he stayed in there, that had an indoor swimming pool, but the place was insufficiently luxurious for him nonetheless. In Washington DC, the premies obtained a beautiful suburban home on Brixton Lane in Bethesda, MD (which I personally found, by the way) for a local 'residence.' The house was lavishly furnished and the Big M even stayed there for two days when he came to speak in the area, and an entire army of premies were on notice to obtain any item the Big M might suddenly desire. By the way, he was given a Jaguar to drive while he was there, and driven to the program and to and from the airport in a limosine. Big M has personal servants that live with, and travel with him always, including a personal valet, cook, and other servants. I have personally seen this. Prior to having his own plane, he travelled first class, usually buying up most of the seats in the section so he wouldn't have to deal with lowly common people. Randy Prouty, who used to travel with him, said that Big M, alone travelled with 50 suitcases, which others, not him, packed, carried and otherwise transported so that Big M wouldn't have to raise a finger. The Boeing 707 aircraft that he had for a time, cost millions. It had gold plumbing fixtures, a gold toilet, a shower with computerized temperature settings, a state of the art sound system, leather, gold and etched glass, as well as inlaid, hand-polished wood trim. I personally had a tour of that plane. It was so lavish that people at the Miami airport thought it belonged to the Sultan of Brunei, the richest man in the world, if Bill Gates hasn't taken over that position by now. These are just a few examples from my own, personal, experience. I think it's safe to say that wherever he goes, the local community gets him the best the place has to offer, and if not, I'm sure that the Big M arranges that for himself. Also, in San Francisco in 1981, Big M flew in on his luxury plane to speak at a program. I personally rented Lincoln Town cars (3 of them) for the Big M and his entourage to be escorted to and from the airport and to and from the program. He didn't stay overnight in SF, in fact, he was only in town for a couple of hours, flying out after the program. But if he had stayed, believe me, he would have stayed in the best place we could find, and money would be not object. Behind stage at the program, he had food and refreshments, and a group of premies were on constant standby to get him anything he desired. I personally saw, from a distance one time in Miami, Maharaji try on and purchase a $6000 suit, and that was in 1979 dollars. I believe he wore it to a program that night, and later stripped it off to wear that naked-from-the-waist-up Krishna outfit and danced around the stage to the screams and cries of a hall full of premies. So, Vayu/Vacol, do you have one shread of evidence to the contrary, that the Big M would suffer some sort of horrible inconvenience if he didn't have that plane that is really a big toy for him, costs millions, is environmentally irresponsible and part of the Big M's jet-set lifestyle? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 21:16:57 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: Those stupid cars, etc. Message: The fellow I work with (for) chairs more programs, reaches more people, gives more (original) lectures, and makes more significant recognized contributions to human knowledge and understanding than GMJ has even contemplated. He is the most cited author in North America, and perhaps the world. He owns one beatup Volvo and when my car stalled getting him back to the office he got out with me, at nearly 80 years of age, and pushed. (Frankly, he scared the hell out of me, but I couldn't dissuade him.) Your pathitic justifications of GMJ's toys is just that... pathetic. What M lacks is simply character. It amazes me that this isn't totally obvious and non-controversial. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 21:41:27 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: JW and Scott T. Subject: Those stupid cars, etc. Message: I think that's a good point about maharaji demonstrating a lack of environmental consciousness by using one mammoth jet to fly himself around in. It does point to his lack of character. But when you think about it, what is the Big M spreading; what is knowledge? It is nothing. It is people's dreams and hopes and desperation. It is spoiled white 'children' in the West and the impoverished in the East. You learn how to put your index finger above your eyes, plug up your ears, and concentrate on your breath. Personally, it helps me in my life to some degree, but the advice maharaji dispensed with it, more than negated any value he might have for me in the long run. Along with the little techniques come some simple basic Eastern religious principles, most of them flawed in my opinion, that he only occassionally refers to. Most of the time he repeats an idiotic speech about how valuable 'this' life is, how we can feel 'that' love, and how you can't describe 'it'. He doesn't need a jet to spread that, or a first class ticket, but he deserves an Academy Award for pulling off the con-artist scam of the millennium. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 01:16:09 (EST)
From: Vayu Email: None To: JW Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: JW ...YOU TYPED...'much of the assets go into supporting that plane. Now that may be true ....and in a sense my response is 'SO WHAT!' but I want to ask .....given that a plane would be just about the most expensive item anyway , what is the point you are making? As if one is supposed to sit back and experience some type of 'aha' insight from that . And besides that , as you seem to know so much about M's finacial affairs , could you please produce some 'figures' to back up these claims ....or are you of the same mind as others and think you should be believed just because you speak as if you know. Put your personal credibility on the line ....show me the evidence. Another quote from you ; 'The Boing 707 bankrupted the mission in the early 80's and required significant 'illegal' fundraising(I hope M's lawyers are reading this). Again ...Joe, where is the evidence for 'significant illegal fundraising'? I await your response . Vayu. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 13:17:33 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Vayu Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: My point about the plane was in regard to priorities. You might not think that matters, but my point was that it illustrates that Big M's priority is NOT 'spreading knowledge.' If it was, the huge amount of money that goes into the plane could be used for propogation purposes, rather than financing a super-expensive, environmentally irresponsible, inefficient, mode of transportation that M thinks is fun. Regarding the illegal fundraising for the Boeing 707. I was at IHQ at the time. As you may recall, Big M lied to the premies that there even WAS a plane project. He told the premies, and we were complicit in this, that money was being raised for a 'world tour' when it was actually being raised to buy and refurbish a Boeing 707 passenger aircraft into a personal flying living quarters for M. The motivation was that the publicity for M wouldn't be good if it got out to the press that the plane project was happening. So, that lie is point number one. Number two. The plane project, despite having raised millions from the premies for a mythical 'world tour' kept running out of money. One several occasions, emergency fundraising had to take place. As Community Coordinator in Miami, I was told to get up in front of the community and ask for contributions in cash, and that premies should borrow money, go into debt, take out cash on their credit cards, etc. CCs in the other US and Canadian communitites were told to do the same. Couriers from IHQ were sent all over the country to pick up the cash and return it to Miami. The contributions had to be in cash, because DLM, which was doing the fundraising, was legally a non-profit, religious organization, but it was raising money for a PERSONAL plane for an individual (Big M) and that is illegal under the IRS codes. So, to cover over the evidence, no checks were allowed and only cash could be used. I helped count the money when it was returned. Hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash was raised. In order to deposit the money in a bank, we had to make deposits of $10,000 or less, because US Treasury laws require a bank to report any deposit of $10,000 or more in cash. So, that's what we did. The fundraising, which started out being just deceitful, ended up being illegal. The fact that it was illegal was openly discussed at IHQ, where I had my office, and they were worried about it. DLM totally ran out of money during this period, and was abolished shortly thereafter. I would be happy to discuss these events with lawyers or anyone else. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 13:18:50 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Vayu Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: By the way, Vayu, thanks for the opportunity to repeat these events. You're doing a real service to your lord giving us the opportunity to lay it all out for the whole world to see, once again. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 18:25:33 (EST)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Vayu Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: And besides that , as you seem to know so much about M's finacial affairs , could you please produce some 'figures' to back up these claims ....or are you of the same mind as others and think you should be believed just because you speak as if you know. Why should he be any different than M himself, V/V? I was going to tell this story another time, but you've forced my hand. At one of the last programs I went to see M in person, a 'premis only' program, M spent a good portion of the post-practice-session giving a 'business report,' state-of-the-project, so to speak, complete with view-graphs and an overhead projector. At one point, he put a slide on the projector that had 7 bar-graphs on it, each with a green bar superimposed on a larger red bar. They were labelled such things as 'Programs, Printing, Videos, Travel,' stuff like that. He told us the green bar represented donations and the red bar represented actual costs. In every case, the red bar was significantly taller than the green bar. But you know what, V/V? There was not a single dollar figure on the entire chart! The graphs could have represented anything from $5 to $5 million each. Although it was not a big deal to me (I gave M the money I felt like, not much, and didn't care what he did with it), I remember thinking, ``Maharaji, just how dumb do you think we are?'' What surprised me more was that people ate it up hook, line and sinker. So if M doesn't need to present any actual figures about his costs and expenditures, why does anyone else? -Still Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 19:21:30 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Still Crazy Subject: JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS Message: Amazing. I heard there was a meeting like that, but I'm not surprised he didn't give figures. As to actual financials, I just know what I know. I was involved in the Boeing 707 fundraising. And Dennis Marciniak, who was president of DLM at the time (and a really decent guy) told me in 1980, that at that time, M's living expenses ran $300,000 PER MONTH. And that was 18 years ago. Still, I appreciate the more recent information. Obviously, what I know is now pretty old. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 21:41:21 (EST)
From: gumby Email: None To: JW Subject: My 2 cents Message: Hi JW, Your response was the most awesome response that I have read today. Good job. GAGBWY -gumby Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 03:15:21 (EST)
From: Vacol Email: None To: JW, GUMBY AND RICK Subject: My 2 cents Message: Firstly the truth comes out .....RICK thinks the Knowledge is a lot of nonsense. Just a big con job! Rick ...you are a lousy member of the team you support. And many ex's will strongly disagree with you. Did you ever actually practice K? FOR HOW LONG? And JW ....I eagerly await some FACTS from you. In the meantime I shall contemplate Commandment 2. Vayu Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 11:02:49 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Vacol and Rick Subject: My 2 cents Message: Vacol (I like Vayu better, it flows) and Rick, As an ex who still values K, I'd like to put in my 2 cents about Rick's oppinion of K. I've read many posts for other ex's who don't continue to value, or never had a good experience with K. I have no problem with that. We are each individuals and we relate to what clicks with us. I don't even see it as a choice really, it just happens or doesn't happen. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 10:40:12 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: JW Subject: My 2 cents Message: Dear JW, That whole post was eloquent but I love ,best: Also, join AA or otherwise look into that drinking problem. But he might have a little problem accepting a 'higher power' because I think he believes he is as high as it gets. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 20:31:16 (EST)
From: Vayu or Vacol Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The Weird ones. Message: Now weird I am for sure, 'Cause' I looked behind the door, Even tho' others warned me , That it was against the law. Now weird a premie is, For daring to seek within, The Self behind the mask, Each moment new to begin. All my life weird I've been, Must have been born that way, Always wanting THAT to be seen, And with my fellow weirdo's to play! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 21:22:10 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vayu or Vacol Subject: The Weird ones. Message: And this is supposed to help your cause? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 21:50:58 (EST)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: The Weird ones. Message: Of course Scott , in this world of mediocrity , sheeplike conformity, intellectual banality and spiritual barrenness, my weirdness is something I am very proud of!!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 22:24:32 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Vacol Subject: The Weird ones. Message: Okay, how much for your rhyming dictionary? I can't take much more of this. I suppose you don't notice any sheeplike conformity or intellectual banality....in.....your....poetry. Please, climb under your blanket, I think a good five-day meditation marathon is what you need. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 01:33:44 (EST)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: The Weird ones. Message: I'd take the micky out of you if I could really bother . I'll just cut it short and call you an asshole!!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 01:57:00 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Vacol Subject: The Weird ones. Message: Now, now, remember Holy Name, brother! Oh my!To be called such a name by a devotee of the Living Lord! Whatever shall I do? If I was Petrou, I might think that you were threatening me!!! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 11:10:45 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Vacol Subject: The Weird ones. Message: Dear Vayu, I have to tell you my mouth literally droped when I read that you called Mickey an asshole. So cutting so quickly. Don't know what to say. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 01:06:06 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vacol Subject: The Weird ones. Message: There is such a thing as exceptionalism that is not weird. Oh... never mind. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 11:07:19 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Vayu or Vacol Subject: The Weird ones. Message: Dear Vayu (I always fought not to spell 'Valco'), My mother told me when I was 39 that she always thought I was a weird child. I was a bit taken aback and even hurt for a few moments and then I reconsidered and coming from her I thought it a complement! Maybe that is why I've come to read and respond to your posts. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 18:30:08 (EST)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Vayu or Vacol Subject: The Weird ones. Message: BUT -- Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain! I am the Great and Powerful Oz! -Still Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 13:19:13 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Petrou Message: Petrou, What 'logical arguments' of yours have been ignored here? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 14:13:55 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Jim Subject: Participant's post - Repost Message: The following post (from Forum III archive 1) it the one that got Bill's dander up. The fancy HTML didn't make the cut: Date: Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 21:02:29 (EDT) From: Participant Email: none To: Everyone Subject: Participles per Participant Message: Jim & JW's Ex-cellent.Org While deciding whether to bother with anymore posts here I had a quick look at the archives to see if I was being fair to the posters and to see who they were. With a bit of grepping and froing I came up with the following table. I got quite a shock as Katie had not registered in my mind. When I looked at some of her posts I saw why, she is one of those who keep things happening without actually providing much information, misinformation and commentary about knowledge so I had ignored her posts. Poster - Posts - % Posts Katie 682 13.92% JW 608 12.41% Jim 391 7.98% Scott T. 297 6.06% VP 296 6.04% Brian 264 5.39% John K. 241 4.92% Mr Ex 230 4.69% Robyn 166 3.39% Sir David 158 3.23% Rick 148 3.02% John Cavad 143 2.92% David 140 2.86% And On Anand Ji 116 2.37% Mickey the Pharisee 109 2.22% bftb 105 2.14% Bobby 104 2.12% op 101 2.06% Anon 99 2.02% Nigel 98 2.00% Selena 84 1.71% Deena 78 1.59% Joy 72 1.47% Mike 66 1.35% gumby 53 1.08% Aesop 50 1.02% Total 4899 100.00% As I had suspected JW and Jim are the gurus here. Message to JimJim said:You say you'd be happy to discuss this wonderfully complex topic over dinner but really, what would you say that you haven't already said here? In three or four hours, face to face, we could communicate about 10,000 times more information than in a year using this forum. Even more importantly we would be able to assess each other's honesty, openness and wisdom, that is of course assuming I could get a word in edgewise as over the Internet you seem composed of equal parts bile, chutzpah and mouth! I'm planning a trip to Whistler in the Year 2K so if you live between Vancouver and there we may be able to get together. I'll see if this forum still exists before I arrive in Canada. In the meantime I award you the: The Benjamin Netanyahu Award for Reasoned Debate: Jim Heller For the lady of the org: The Fran Drescher Award for Best Cyber HouseMother: Katie Katie, I think there's a next step you have to take. You know JW knows much more than you and says it so much better than you but he's so humble that it's up to you to convince him to initiate the CLASS ACTION SUIT AGAINST MAHARAJI. All 20 of you can enter and share the huge payout you will get when Maharaji is proved to be the fraud you say he is in court. And then JW can sit right up there with his peers Alan Dershowitz, Johnny Cochran and Clarence Darrow. You know how hard it is for JW, with all those people above him who are ten years his junior and that embarassing black hole in his resume. You'll be suing Maharaji for deprivation of liberty, loss of income and infringement of your Civil Rights. JW's a lawyer so you wouldn't even have to pay any legal fees. Imagine the payout when you get a jury to agree with you. Instead of impressing this small group of true-believers you will have an international, public, well-publicised forum for you to really show the world what sort of person Maharaji is. [THE BULLET QUOTE:] BTW Is there anything you can do for Bill? I'm only shooting blanks at big boys and girls who seem mentally robust to look after themselves, but anyone would feel concern for him. Message to JW: Is there any point continuing when the chances of having a meaningful dialogue with you seem so poor. I'm not concerned by point scoring, insults or rudeness as this is how Australian males show affection anyway but after just a few posts I can see that things appear worse than that. It seems that you deliberately misinterpret much of what I say to belittle my position rather than honestly responding. I also believe you're revealing your own underlying attitudes of dishonesty, lack of openness, mental disturbance, etc with your wild accusations about me and others. I have read some of your posts revealing your acts as a 'storm-trooper' and your need for professional psychiatric help so I am not making up my assessment of you - it is based upon your own writings - and frankly I think you should beef up the dose of prozac at least for a while. In the end your fundamental argument is that you were more dedicated and surrendered and understood Knowledge better than any premie who hasn't left Maharaji and more than any who have as well. Therefore because you made more real mistakes, more often in your ten years and acted worse and have more guilt and ultimate responsibility therefore you now know more than anyone else, can understand everyone and everything and are even qualified to forgive others' sins 'No guilt lies at your feet, Mr Ex.' So for you: The Princess Diana Award for the Most Dedicated and Surrendered Premie - ever: The Messiah Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 12:22:34 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Please help me figure this out Message: I spent way too long here yesterday, keeping up my end of the dialogue about 'outing' Keith Simons (posting as Vacol and now,apparently, Vayu, too). I just can't afford to do this so much. But God, it's hard isn't it? First, you read all the posts since you were last around, even if that was only hours agao -- even if it was only minutes! If someone's posted something directly to you, you want to and feel like you should reply. Then there are others' posts you feel like commenting on and, sometimes, of course, you feel like saying something new, starting a whole new round of dialogue. I'm watching the clock for a change and, right now, I've been here for half an hour, just reading things. It's scary to think about how much time I spent here yesterday. Believe it or not -- and I don't expect anyone would in the circumstances -- I actually have, not jsut a life, but a really busy life. There's a lot of stuff I'm supposed to be doing that gets short shrift because of this dialogue. You can see I'm a little worried at my own dismal time management. I really don't know what to do about it. I enjoy the forum in all respects. I enjoy my little role here -- it's a lot of fun, plus it's a natural. I remember how excited I was to first speak my mind about Maharaji, not just on a long walk with an old premie friend (did a few of those!) but here, where the world, and even Maharaji himself could read my thoughts. From there to calling Maharaji apologists on their facts or how they deal with them was an easy transition. Therer was a point where I felt I almost HAD to stay so involved because of the numbers. Kind of like when you go to a party and there are just enough people to call it such, it's hard to leave, they need you. I don't really think it's like that anymore. It's not, is it? I took off for over a month and somehow, believe it or not, the forum did just fine without me. Hey, go figure. No, I know that I'm jsut here because I want to, it's our own special-flavour fun. It's neat to relate to new ex's, it's great to get to know old ones as time goes on. Isn't it weird how much we all become cyberfriends? How much is that like real friends? That's not an easy question to answer, is it? And I still get a kick out of deflating premie hypocrisy. I don't know, I cringe in disgust at Chris's posts like the one I criticized yesterday. And it's not even a personal thing against Chris. (How can you have any personal feelings towards a zombie. Sorry, Chris, maybe one day you'll thank me for this. Maybe you won't. Whatever. Don't think it doesn't hurt me, kind of, that you're such a 'nice' guy and so central-casting cult-like. It does.) Does anyone else feel this way? So, I'm just asking if anyone's got any good, parctical advice for me? I'm looking for a way to have it all. I want to be able to post here as always and yet not spend all my time centered around this wonderfully endless discussion. Thanks, Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 13:07:48 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: Please help me figure this out Message: Dear Jim, No advise I just find myself in the same predicament. I think a voice activated laptop computer with a battery pack for the car would help me, how much time do you spend in the car? Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 13:27:41 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Jim Subject: Please help me figure this out Message: I think if you automate part of your posting, you'll get ahead of the game. You need a standard post for the premie challenge; you know, the one with all of maharaji's quotes and the offer of a fair debate. Then you need a standard post for a little later on, when the premie starts copping out. Then another standard post for when the premie goes psycho, and yet another standard post for when you get a threat (you know, the one that cites Mili's infractions and punishment). That way, you can just click a button and the post gets sent in... no muss, no fuss. Brian might know how to work out the details. Some day when you get really big, you can just hire a young kid out of law school and have him do most of the reading and posting under your name. If they do it right, no one will ever know you're off playing tennis. On the other hand, Jim, you might have a bonafied addiction. You know what they say about one's life becoming unmanagable. It might come to the point where you have to abstain completely, and can't ever even go online (not even once), for fear of falling into the endless pit. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 13:54:42 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Rick Subject: Don't laugh! I'm close Message: Rick, The first part of your post made me laugh, the second made me really think, 'is that me?' I know that when I took a bit of a break around Christmas I'd come back to town on weekends and read up on things. I wasn't involved so it put the dialogues in a slightly different perspective. Some of the small, personal chit chat was just kind of nice, no big deal. I never had a CB radio but I got the idea. Then there would be arguments with premies. It was always nice to see you guys deal with them in each your own way. I guess the party had gotten happening enough that I didn't feel that I had to keep circulating. You know what? I'm going to take another break for a while. I've just decided. Last time I did this John, very rightly posted a 'who the fuck cares?' message. I agree, kind of. This is incredibly indulgent. Anyway, I'm going to take another break for a while. See you later. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 14:30:38 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Jim Subject: Don't laugh! I'm close Message: Jim: As I remember what happened after x-mas was that you kept saying you were leaving and then you kept posting, which I found annoying. Actually, Jim, I have gone through a change in my ex-premie development. I now find your posts incredibly funny. So, for what it's worth, I will miss you if you do indeed stop posting. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 14:53:38 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: To Jim Message: Jim, I seem to recall that you took several months and did not post on the forum at all and you seemed to survive okay. Can't you just do that again? I also find the forum enjoyable, and therapeutic. It can be kind of a rush, but like anything else, moderation is probably the best policy. I also enjoy your humor and wit, but I'll have to say that while you were gone, the forum functioned quite well. One thing I have done is to pretty much stay away on weekends. You could also just give yourself so much time per day to participate and then stop. That might actually make you more effective and selective in what you comment on. I don't think anyone (except Brian and Katie bless their hearts) should feel responsible for the forum and what is said on it. Thousands of posts are made and read here, and if some stupid premie argument doesn't get responded to completely, in the scheme of things it doesn't matter. As you know, the same stupid arguments just get recycled and re-stated anyway. Plus, with the exception of Mili and CD, premies who post don't seem to hang around here. I would imagine it is pretty confronting and demoralizing, especially since the Big M banned the only other site where premies could express positive stuff about the Big M. I think the forum has clearly reached critical mass. Nothing will stop this forum now. Too many people know about it, and I think the biggest audience is probably not ex-premies, but premies! Like you said, every festival more premies find out about it and start peaking. It's just too funny, but also very encouraging. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 14:55:08 (EST)
From: And Now For Something Email: None To: Rick Subject: Slightly Different.. Message: Are you addicted to the Ex-Premie Forum? Answer YES or NO to the following questions. (Borrowed from A.A.) 1 - Have you ever decided to stop posting for a week or so, but only lasted for a couple of days? 2 - Do you wish people would mind their own business about your posting-- stop telling you what to do? 3 - Have you ever switched from one forum to another in the hope that this would keep you from posting excessively? 4 - Have you had to have an eye-opener upon awakening during the past year? 5 - Do you envy people who can post without getting into trouble? 6 - Have you had problems connected with posting during the past year? 7 - Has your posting caused trouble at home? 8 - Do you ever try to get in 'extra' posts because you do not get enough? 9 - Do you tell yourself you can stop posting any time you want to, even though you keep posting when you don't mean to? 10 - Have you missed days of work or school because of posting? 11 - Do you have 'blackouts'? (A 'blackout' is when we have been posting for hours or days which we cannot remember). 12 - Have you ever felt that your life would be better if you did not post? What's your score? Did you answer YES four or more times? If so, you are probably in trouble with forum posting. Just trying to be helpful, eb Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 08:42:16 (EST)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Everyone Subject: When in doubt:throw mud. Message: I'd like to humbly suggest that this be the motto for the Forums Ex-filers:When in Doubt,Throw Mud. .Anon:play the game properly and read a few messages before gracing us all with a new topic. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 09:07:22 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Petrou Subject: Little Boy - Repost Message: Petrou is a childish little boy in Star Trek pajamas whose Daddy won't let him have a swing-set of his own. So he plays in our yard. When he doesn't get to run the game he threatens to run on back to Daddy and tattle. He posted a couple of threads down that he's gonna tell MJ's attorneys that we have been referring to the Ex-Lord Of The Universe as a fraud or other such startling facts. I wouldn't worry about Petrou. I can always cut him down to 1 or 2 posts a day. Or zero. It's all the same to me. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 09:20:32 (EST)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Brian Subject: Death threats on the forum Message: Yep,there's no avoiding it people.The issue is clearly that a death threat was made by a person labelled as 'bb'.I have not passed anything else on except that one crucial item,.so let's not fall for Brian's lies.All you have to do is study the forum and you can read the truth for yourself.This is the beauty of the Net.It renders lies like Brian's as useless. So what do the Ex-filers do?Straight to the mud and lies!! Smart eh? If anyone wants a copy of 'bb's' bizarre loony threat please include your email and I'll send it right along. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 10:09:35 (EST)
From: David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Petrou Subject: Death threats on the forum Message: I have never read a death threat on this forum. Please email it to me and also state either here or in the email, what date this threat occured so that I can view it in the archives. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 09:35:46 (EST)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Brian Subject: not a single honest reply Message: Their still has not been a single honest attempt to answer the issue as yet by any alleged member of this forum.Only the usual insults and ravings of the Ex-filers.You lose again. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 10:35:18 (EST)
From: Anon Email: None To: Petrou Subject: not a single honest reply Message: Listen Petrou, I had a look for this 'death threat' and I can't find it anywhere. Will you please re-post it here immediately in its entirety then I promise you I will make an 'honest attempt to answer the issue' if that is humanly possible. Surely that's not too much to ask is it?? Anon Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 12:10:52 (EST)
From: Anon Email: None To: Petrou Subject: OK Petrou I've found it... Message: Ok Petrou ..I've found the following. Please read. Bill wrote: If you think this forum is going to become some live and let live chat fest, it wont, we have a serious grudge here and work to do. The tyrant is in the crosshairs and we arent shooting blanks. Petrou replied: Even the Ex-filers rules preclude threats. Mate you're talking bullets. What is this ,the TaxiDriver?? Bill then replied: It is a reference to bruces or participants post where he said he was firing blanks. Scott added: Do you actually mean to say that you think he's talking about real bullets? Give me a break. David Lane isn't shooting blanks either. He really intends to bring down some of these 'lords of the universe.' I say: Petrou, I still can't find the post Bill says he is referring to, where Bruce or Participant said he was firing blanks. However from what I have already read some things are clear. Whilst I agree it is a rather unfortunate choice of words I nevertheless think that you are mistaken to interpret this as anything other than the metaphor that I am certain bb. intended. If I said to you, during an argument, that I wasn't going to 'pull any punches' you wouldn't interpret that as that I was proposing to beat you up physically would you?? If I said to you, during an argument, that I was going to 'shoot you down in flames' you wouldn't interpret that as that I was proposing to employ the services of a flame-thrower would you?? If I said to you, during an argument, that I was 'up in arms' at your accusations, you wouldn't interpret that as that I was proposing to muster a small army?? If you re-read Bills post you will see that the contextual intention of his metaphor was to reinforce his point that the forum is 'not going to become some live and let live chat fest' and that Maharaji was the target of serious allegations. The only thing that remains to finally lay this matter to rest is bb saying categorically that he intended this as a metaphor and not as a death threat, otherwise I can see that people like you will continue to try and twist his words to suggest that he meant something which in all likelihood he didn't. OK?? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 12:56:31 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Anon Subject: That pisses me off Message: Anon, I agree with all that you just wrote and Bill, my friend, I have to say that this pisses me off a bit. (Great, now we can have a whole 'should I have said we're not shooting blanks?' thread). Bill, come on, don't you know that these idiots are bound to twist that kind of metaphor? Don't you remember what I went through with Mil and Chris over the 'Nazi' allusion? [I was talking about Chris' cultivated ability to say nothing consequential and offered a hypothetical example: if we were to talk about Hitler's 3rd Reich, Chris would comment on how nice the musicians played in the beer garden. Mili and Chris went on for a while talking about how I had threatened to gas all the premies.)It's like going on a picnic and leaving food out where the ants can get it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 01:16:44 (EST)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Jim Subject: Heil Jim Message: Wow ,I never even read that old post and I had independently worked out your Aryan leanings too! Hang in their Jim,you might be giving yourself more rope at any moment. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 01:36:40 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Petrou Subject: Petey Petroughs out Message: Petey: Your skills are absolutely extraordinaire! We are, or would be, amazed at your insight into Jim's Aryan leanings, except that Jim is, well... Jewish. Just a little hiccough, never mind. By the way, have you figured out yet who Clifford Geertz is, you old Anthro whiz kid you? Don't want to distract you with anything real. You're doing GREAT! -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 11:58:53 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Petrou Subject: When in doubt:throw mud. Message: Petrou, I can't find the threat. Pleas post it in its entirety here so that we may all read it and respond. It does no good to keep harping on it if we can't read it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 01:04:23 (EST)
From: PETROU Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: When in doubt:throw mud. Message: I just tried to send it to you but your email address wasn't accepted.When I get on later tonight I'll post it to all. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 08:11:49 (EST)
From: Anon Email: None To: Everyone Subject: C'mon..Let's all help Petrou! Message: Petrou wrote: Just a note to tell everyone that we are aware of the Net-nuts here who have seen fit to offer a thinly veiled death threat to GMJ and have tried to ignore it. (Poor old BB - The author of a thinly veiled death threat indeed! We who know and love old Burke can see that he is a harmless enough fellow. Just a bit excitable when penning his thoughts about something he feels strongly about) How's about we all help him out over this? Why don't we all save Petrou (and his silently observing premie friends) some time, and re-iterate for them, under this thread, all the most controversial stuff that we have ever read here or elsewhere about Maharaji and premies. Then he can get the legal ball rolling nice and quickly. I'll start... I have read the following slanderous things: 1)Someone claimed that they had first-hand experience that Mahatma (lit.'Great Soul') Jagdeo had abused his role as instructor by molesting a minor(s). 2)Apparently this Mahatma Fakiranand fellow was protected from the law for his misdeeds. 3)Someone said that the Raja Ji's World Peace Corps once carried guns. 4)Someone said that Maharaji had at some time experienced some marriage difficulties and that it was widely known that he has at least one mistress, something that it is said is not news to his immediate family. 5)Someone said they thought M had tried LSD in the past. 6)David Smith was utterly scorned for his inhumane creepiness as major henchman. 7)Maharaji was berated for shouting angrily at people and being too rich. 9)Someone published the 'secret' techniques of meditation as taught by M. 10)Someone found and article on the Net about another bloke calling himself 'Maharaji' in Africa who apparently has set up shop in imitation of the one we all love and know. The distinction was finally made clear. 11)A potted history of DLM was published according to the information available to the publisher.Some names were misspelled! 12)Several people expressed resentment that M had persuaded them that they should adopt the ashram lifestyle which they felt in the end served them badly. 13)Some people have regretted their former financial contributions to M, considering that it was not a worthy cause or left them unnecessarily out of pocket. 14)Some people have suggested that M inspired, through his emphasis on the all-importance of following the Master, his followers to act in fanatical and irresponsible ways. In particular, some people have felt that the children of premies suffered a lack of proper care and attention as a result of the extraordinary priorities of their parents. Some actual children of premies have commented on this. 15)Maharaji has been described variously as anything from the occasional drinker of fine Cognac to an alcoholic in the throes of denial. It has also been levelled at him that he occasionally puffs contentedly at Marlborough cigarettes if I remember correctly. A damning thing indeed! 16)It has been argued at length that Maharaji is deluded in his vision of himself as a Master. 17)Various more prosaic explanations for his successes as a guru have been put forward to challenge the more 'marvelous' descriptions of his rise to power that are commonly repeated by premies. 18)Maharaji has come into some slanging as regards his physical appearance, as well as some appreciation of his fine form by others. Yawn... Perhaps others could now add to and comment further on these topics? Really I think that Petrou needs some better material to scurry off to the lawyers with, otherwise they won't take him seriously. (just as the better informed premies obviously don't!) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 08:34:01 (EST)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Anon Subject: Red Herrings Message: Slander is not the same as an actual death threat. You can't escape this truth can you! When the suggestion was made that GMJ be sued you were all slapping yourselves on the back with the usual platitudes,now even the thought of it happening to you has really got you worried.What a bunch of old chestnuts you have dragged out! How easy to slander. Its not so easy to get away from making a death threat on the net is it now Anon? No,and you have obviously got the message Everyone is allowed to slander on the net if you want to go that low,but you can not make threats.Not even an apology yet or even a retraction either.Just ignorance.Typical.. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 13:55:54 (EST)
From: Nigel Email: nigel.redcrow@demon.co.uk To: Petrou Subject: Red Herrings Message: Not slander, Petrou, we're talking libel > here, so if you're really so anxious for litigation, you had better get your terms right. Unfortunately, as far as I can see, all of the 'lies' are either a matter of public record (as in M's former claims), or refer to events for which there are living eyewitnesses. Now you've set the rolling, it will be very interesting to see who is really afraid of the law courts... As to bb's 'death threat'. Please note the use of the present tense, as in 'we're not firing blanks here', obviously meaning (for people with at least two brain cells to rub together) that 'we' (the ex's), are serious in our wish to see M discredited 'here' (ie., on the forum). Have M's lawyers replied yet? Please keep us informed. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 14:34:10 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Petrou Subject: Red Herrings Message: Petrou, please, please. If you have ANY influence over the guy formerly known as the lord of the universe, PLEASE get him to SUE!!! You really are not too bright, are you? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 11:22:11 (EST)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Anon Subject: C'mon..Let's all help Petrou! Message: 1)Someone claimed that they had first-hand experience that Mahatma (lit.'Great Soul') Jagdeo had abused his role as instructor by molesting a minor(s). I heard Jagdeo was reprimanded several times for having sex with premis, and was removed as the resident Mahatma in Detroit (?) for his infractions. Jagdeo also taught us to say the following prayer to M's picture: Oh my Guru Maharaji, You are everything to me. Kindly guide me. Kindly protect me. And some other stuff I don't remember right now. 3)Someone said that the Raja Ji's World Peace Corps once carried guns. I saw this many times. Is this supposed to be some srot of secret? They were quite open about it. 9)Someone published the 'secret' techniques of meditation as taught by M. I saw the techniques demonstrated on TV in 1974 (in the U.S.) -Still Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 04:27:22 (EST)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Update on bullets fiasco Message: Just a note to tell everyone that we are aware of the Net-nuts here who have seen fit to offer a thinly veiled death threat to GMJ and have tried to ignore it.Check out the archive:or is it getting doctored now?? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 04:45:11 (EST)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Petrou Subject: P.S.satsang. Message: If anyone would like to genuinely exchange some good stories about GMJ I would be most willing to talk.Type the word 'satsang' in the box and lets go for it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 09:45:23 (EST)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Petrou Subject: P.S.satsang. Message: There used to be a site www.premie.org that was specifically for the purpose of exchanging 'good stories about GMJ.' Whatever happened to that site? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 15:25:53 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Petrou Subject: Update on bullets fiasco Message: Petrou, Your cult has made you seriously paranoid, desperate and has impeeded your ability to reason. Brian wouldn't cover up anything in the archives. Tons of people have these downloaded, so what good would erasing something do anyway? You haven't been posting here long enough to know bb. He was talking about trying to discredit M and the terminology he used was an analogy. Above, you said the exers were full of hatred, I see YOU as the premie most filled with hatred since I began to read here. Have you talked to your minister about this? It's a real problem for you. In the meantime, you are doing your gooroo a great disservice by posting here. Maharaji had better call you off before all of the premies come to their senses reading your crazed posts! Hope you get well soon, VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 23:33:38 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Chris - the finished product Message: This is your brain. This is your brain in a cult: I have no idea of M's logic. Now is that really true? Put Chris on a lie detector for that one, I say. A little sodium pentathol. Chris claims that he has 'no idea' why M does this or that. In other words he can't even begin to speculate. Deos anyone believe him? A problem is that whatever is written on this forum is set and can be twisted into anything. Any words anywhere can be 'twisted' I'd imagine. What's so different about the web? The medium is not conducive to a truely honest discussion. Well, I've had lots of honest discussions here. Like today when I spent a whole lot of time talking about whether it was right or wrong to 'out' Keith Simons. I didn't find it that hard. Did anyone else? Also, Chris, there are all sorts of very substantial discussions taking place all over the net. Does that surprise you? Would you like some links? Just plain old human beings talking about things right here in this medium. So, really, why don't you explain yourself a little further? M used to answer a lot of questions in public. I am not sure that it was very worthwhile. We seem to be able to generate endless questions. I do believe that without an experience we will never have the answers that we seek. Here's Chris' glaringly inconsistent (read 'bullshit') nature at play. Moments ago he claims he has 'no idea' why M does anything. Here, however, he's more than happy to speculate quite easily that M doesn't answer questions anymore because us wrteched human beings used up all our time or something. Similarly, when asked: >Why are there so few outlets for premies to share their thoughts >and feelings? I mean why the huge focus on videos ? Chris jumps in with both feet, speculating for Maharaji like crazy: This is a grass roots deal. What's that supposed to mean? Every town gets to construct their own effigy or something? Premies can certainly do things together if they want. And what's THAT supposed to mean too? The only thing we've seen in that regard is a few premies wanted to have a web page to drool over Maharaji together and he shut it down. What exactly can they do together? Can they hold programs and tell people about their wonderful experience? Of course not. They can introduce video footage of their cult leader and even then in carefully controlled circumstances. The videos are the aspect of the whole thing today that is presented by M. This is called 'engine running, car in neutral'. What in the world is Chris saying? I say he's stalling, making it look like he's actually saying something. The computer is on the desk. I am alive. Have a nice day. Now, your turn. If somebody actually tried to organize all the possibilities they would see what a truely large effort is involved. Again, WHAT? I don't know what 'organizing all the possibilities' means but I guess Chris does. It must be one hell of an effort, I'm sure. It is doable for M to provide consistent presentations around the world using the videos. The same videos are shown worldwide which is pretty amazing considering the diversity of cultures and lifestyles. An absolute miracle, I'm sure. I felt the same way when I realized that 'Miss Piggy does Manhattan' was shown worldwide too. Holy ..pig! Then, when asked: >And should Maharaji show some outer care for those premies who >felt and feel so pained and angry partly because they felt >abandoned? >You know....just to explain things? Chris jumps in with both feet again: He would have to spend all his time explaining things. I believe that he has focused on what is positive and doable. The physical world certainly does impose constraints on time and space. He certainly has acknowledged that people have problems. He seems to be following in the footsteps of the best of the success wizards such as Napolean Hill when he looks to what can be accomplished and the future, rather than becoming muddled in problems. No one but Chris would be able to talk about the 'success wizard' Napoleon Hill without at least a little irony. But that's trivial. What's more astounding is the fact that he's absoultely anwering for Maharaji 'in extremis', 'en toto' 'ad infinitum' -- you name it. This, is the same person who began his post saying he has 'no idea' of M's logic. Here he's explaining it in spades! And, of course, his explanation is despicable. Napoleon Hill is a salesman who has made a lot of money teaching people how to bullshit themselves and others. That's sales. No one's ever believed otherwise. Maharaji is a person who got a whole lot of people to trust him at the highest level imaginable. For Chris to find a parallel the one to the other is so absolutely incredible. I wish I'd never heard this but thought it up for some future Chris parody, like at the Christmas party. Oh my God, they're stealing my material. This and Bal Bhagwan Ji (d/b/a Guru Maharaj Ji) coming to America. Help! Then, in perfect empty-phrase Napoleon Hill/ Maharaji nothing speak, Chris utters this profundity: People have to take the initiative in how they want to manifest what they experience. I guess he feels satisfied or something because he closes: M has done quite a bit to bring people together. You can send me an email if you want. Chris, THIS is your email. You should be ashamed of yourself but alas you can't be. Oh well. Interesting, interesting, interesting. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 00:04:21 (EST)
From: Vayu Email: None To: Jim Subject: Chris - the finished product Message: Jim I have read the 'out' thread ....and you still persist in calling Vacol by his real name. I am not running this forum ...but if I was running this forum I would immediately ban you . Surely you are not as idiotic as you seem , are you? Surely it is pretense , isn't it? Vayu. PS: what do others think about this? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 00:18:59 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Vayu Subject: Chris - the finished product Message: Vayu, Did you see the post where Keith posted something along the lines of I AM KIETH SIMONS!? Cat's out of the bag, I'm afraid. Now, who are YOU by the way? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 00:22:24 (EST)
From: Vayu Email: None To: Jim Subject: Chris - the finished product Message: I am not a rocket scientist.... but Vacol had nothing to lose it seems ,at that point.....you had repeatedly let the cat out of the bag by then anyway. Vacol still has not given you or anyone else permission to use his name . You really are very dumb! I am me ....who are you? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 04:21:57 (EST)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Vayu Subject: what I think of Jim Message: We all know Jim by now don't we!! He thinks he's making sense, often relies on 20 year old twisted memories and of course uses the usual expletives. Let's not forget the 'obsessive complusive' disorder than manifests itself in the same inane comments. Jim really needs professional help and won't admit it.He is what a 'bad example' can do for the sad little cause the Ex-filers have. Check out his past comments that verge on the rascist and you'll find another Net-nut.Zeig Heil Jim. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 05:04:58 (EST)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Petrou Subject: what I think of Jim Message: Here, here, say all of us! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 05:21:13 (EST)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Vacol Subject: what I think of Jim Message: Vacol,you're back!How about sharing a good story with me about GMJ? Do you know that once I went to England to see him and on the last day of the festival I had to go right to the back to do security.I clearly remember seeing GMJ over the heads of thousands of people as he turned and looked at me:it was like focusing with binoculars and our eyes met over the heads of the throng.Another choice spiritual experience with a most remarkable teacher. Lets be like the lotus in the Ex-filers mud. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 09:56:49 (EST)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Petrou Subject: what I think of Jim Message: He is what a 'bad example' can do for the sad little cause the Ex-filers have. Petrou, thank you so much for hanging on here and showing us what a 'good example' can do for the great and glorious cause Maharaji has. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 15:00:54 (EST)
From: Vacol Email: None To: Petrou Subject: what I think of Jim Message: Now I'm back ....I've been busy trying to do twenty things at once!! I'm slowly catching up with the back log of posts I want to read. What can one say about this open university ? The mob mentality could really be studied with much profit in this forum. How those joined together by common emotion and ideas can overlook the glaring inconsistences of their own members or understate them in a way that is comical and tragic at the same time.....with a couple of exceptions. How group projection operates; see a cult ...because one is a cult....a little simplistic perhaps but with a truth. I'm still trying to experiment with ways of trying to debate with those on the forum that are more reasonable....and...hint,hint,....so is Vayu. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 15:31:13 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Still Crazy Subject: what I think of Jim Message: Amen to that, Still Crazy! Isn't he a fine example of love and peace? Get me to a local video program already...VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 00:56:03 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Jim Subject: Chris - the finished product Message: Hey Jim, I want some links to other forums like this. I take it you're not talking about newgroups or chat rooms. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 01:11:46 (EST)
From: Vayu Email: None To: Jim Subject: Chris - the finished product Message: Also I've noticed you name CD as Chriss ....does Chriss want his real name used? And JW as Joe . What is it with you Jim? What's the problem? I'll listen ...if you need a sympathetic ear . Maybe others don't mind if you name them other than their forum names......but Vacol obviously does and so would I . Can you ever say sorry to anyone? You seem to really be in need of some help? I hope that you come through this time a stronger and more sensitive human-being. Vayu. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 01:47:28 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vayu Subject: Chris - the finished product Message: Vayal, whatever: Look, this is beginning to get really tedious. Everyone had calmed down and you had undergone name surgery or something and given us and yourself a break. So everyone, including Jim, was willing to give you a new start. But look, read my lips if you care about turning over a new leaf: STOP USING THE DAMN ELLIPSES ALL OVER THE PLACE. IT'S A DEAD GIVEAWAY! Ok, Voyeur? See? Sheesh. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 01:56:19 (EST)
From: Vayu Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Chris - the finished product Message: Well done 10 out of 10...Scott. Why don't you tell your pal to quit smoking ....his cough doesn't sound too good to me? Comprehendo?.If Jim starts to behave the hounds will stop snapping at his heels. I love new leaves! Vayu Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 14:29:15 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Vayu Subject: Chris - the finished product Message: My concern is not now, nor has it ever been, about Jim. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 13:23:07 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Rick Subject: to Rick Message: Rick, There are all sorts of good discussions on the net. You know, pick a subject, do a search and shit, there's just so much. I've found several dialogues about Darwinism, often between some of the main writers and thinkers in the field. I don't have them at hand but just search 'Dawkins' for a start. (Don't bother with lesser lights, like Gould). Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 08:22:48 (EST)
From: Petrou Email: None To: Jim Subject: The FINISHED FORUM. Message: Do you ever get the feeling that the Forum is starting to wind up? You're just about on your own now,talking to yourself and a few die-hards with nothing left to say.People are obviously scattering since the mention of writs and legal action.Only stalwart Jim holds the fort with his brave proposal to GMJ that has been mysteriously shelved.The nutty threats have been quietly ignored as if they never even happened.Soon now doubt it will co-incidentally be the time to end the Forum altogether.I can already hear the pious platitudes about the end of the forum and how its wonderful slanderous goals have been supposedly achieved,and aren't we all wonderful etc.Isn't slander wonderful?Keep throwing the mud and they say its bound to stick.This is definitely the deep philosophy of the forum. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 10:42:57 (EST)
From: Anon Email: None To: Petrou Subject: The ONLY JUST STARTED FORUM. Message: Petrou,you are an absolutely sad hoot! People are obviously scattering since the mention of writs and legal action. Are you blind or what? There's plenty of people posting. Don't flatter yourself that your threats of legal action have scared anyone. The nutty threats have been quietly ignored as if they never even happened. I have already said I can't find what you are referring to so be a nice fellow and re-post the offending phrase in context and I will address it myself if that makes you happy. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 14:29:47 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Petrou Subject: The FINISHED FORUM. Message: Petrou, this post was in response to your idiotic post from down below, but since your current post is equally idiotic, I am reposting it. I also reiterate Anon's request that you state exactly what has been said that is slanderous. Keep in mind, that in the US legal system, a defense to slander is 'truth.' You seem to have some beleaguered argument threatening people who post here with legal action. There is nothing I would like to see more that the Big M do something as stupid and self-destructive as to sue former devotees for complaining about his previous claims to be god, and how they were ripped off my him big time. The suit would be perceived int he press, correctly, as a slap suit, by a filthy rich, selfish, sleazy, re-packaged guru-noid from the 70s, to get the very people who helped make his rich shut up and to trample on their consitutional rights to talk about him and their experiences in his cult because he finds what they are saying embarrassing. The publicity would be just too precious. Not only that, just think of the evidence. Exhibit A: The Book 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?' (maybe the film too), the film 'Satguru Has Come,' the words to ARTI, financial records of DLM and EV, as well as Big M's personal financial records, etc. Maybe people like Bill Patterson, Michael Donner, BBJ, Claudia and others could be required to testify under oath. Also, I marvel at the prospect of having the Big M be required to testify under oath (and under penalty of perjury), and, for the first time in his life, be required to actually answer questions truthfully. A multitude of disgruntled ex-premies would line up to testify as well. I'm sure a jury would be favorably impressed by Big M throwing his weight about in such a suit. I'm sure it would make Court TV, if not CNN. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 17:12:18 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Jim Subject: Chris - Hill and books Message: Jim, you must relish plucking petals off of roses. You probably also hate Tolkien because his story is not rational enough for your way of seeing things. Napoplean Hill has an interesting story about Luther Burbank by the way and was advisor to 3 presidents of the United States. He wrote many of the fireside chats. He has been dead for a while now. I believe that Think and Grow Rich was written in the 40s. I found his writing to be quite interesting but it is not my bible. I don't have a bible. Think and Grow Rich - Napolean Hill - he interviewed Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Luther Burbank and many other people of note - a suprise book A few books I like on the Human Spirit, Success and Infinity. Jim's 'bible' is The Guru Papers. I have a copy but won't put it on my web page list because it is typical pseudo-intellectual short-sighted crap. Regards, CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |