Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 4

From: Apr 19, 1998

To: Apr 29, 1998

Page: 2 Of: 5



JW -:- Regrets -- Family -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 18:07:42 (EST)
__Mickey the Pharisee -:- Regrets -- Family -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 18:22:46 (EST)
____bill -:- STORY TIME -:- Fri, Apr 24, 1998 at 01:19:12 (EST)
______Robyn -:- STORY TIME -:- Fri, Apr 24, 1998 at 11:54:17 (EST)
______JW -:- STORY TIME -:- Fri, Apr 24, 1998 at 16:42:35 (EST)
______VP -:- STORY TIME -:- Fri, Apr 24, 1998 at 18:31:13 (EST)
______Sir David -:- Self abuse time -:- Fri, Apr 24, 1998 at 23:43:45 (EST)
________Katie -:- Self abuse time -:- Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 00:36:26 (EST)
________bill -:- Self abuse time -:- Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 00:58:42 (EST)
__________Katie -:- Self abuse time -:- Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 01:24:37 (EST)
________VP -:- Self abuse time -:- Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 13:03:22 (EST)
__________David -:- Self abuse time -:- Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 22:24:34 (EST)
________eb -:- Self abuse time -:- Sun, Apr 26, 1998 at 01:43:25 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Self abuse time -:- Sun, Apr 26, 1998 at 14:08:48 (EST)
__eb -:- Regrets -- Family -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 22:23:21 (EST)
__gumby -:- Regrets -- Family -:- Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 01:45:10 (EST)
____pokey -:- gumby -:- Fri, Apr 24, 1998 at 00:22:55 (EST)
______gumby -:- gumby -:- Fri, Apr 24, 1998 at 00:49:21 (EST)
________Katie -:- gumby -:- Fri, Apr 24, 1998 at 01:02:08 (EST)
__________gumby -:- gumby -:- Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 03:12:37 (EST)
____________pokey -:- gumby -:- Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 07:02:55 (EST)
______________gumby -:- gumby -:- Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 21:14:22 (EST)
__VP -:- Regrets -- Family -:- Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 09:03:42 (EST)
____JW -:- Regrets -- Family -:- Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 12:36:55 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Regrets -- Family -:- Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 10:34:22 (EST)
____JW -:- Regrets -- Family -:- Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 12:42:43 (EST)

Brian -:- Archive online -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 13:05:45 (EST)

Brian -:- Heckle and Jeckle -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 08:28:22 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Heckle and Jeckle -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 08:48:56 (EST)
__VP -:- Heckle and Jeckle -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 09:40:02 (EST)
__John -:- Heckle and Jeckle -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 10:04:52 (EST)
____Nigel -:- Heckle and Jeckle -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 15:37:04 (EST)
______John -:- I agree Nigel -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 16:00:21 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Frank Burns syndrome -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 10:05:26 (EST)
__Anon -:- Heckle and Jeckle -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 10:36:32 (EST)
____Katie -:- a few questions -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 11:08:29 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- a few questions -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:22:45 (EST)
__Rick -:- Heckle and Jeckle -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 10:47:45 (EST)
____Anon -:- Heckle and Jeckle -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 11:09:56 (EST)
______Katie -:- Heckle and Jeckle -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 11:20:27 (EST)
________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Heckle and Jeckle -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 11:38:58 (EST)
________VP -:- Silence of the Ass -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 11:46:04 (EST)
__________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Silence of the Ass -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 11:52:30 (EST)
____________Robyn -:- Silence of the Ass -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:23:18 (EST)
______________Rick -:- Silence of the Ass -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:37:50 (EST)
________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Silence of the Ass -:- Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 01:54:14 (EST)
__________________Rick -:- Silence of the Ass -:- Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 11:28:38 (EST)
__________Rick -:- Silence of the Ass -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:17:23 (EST)
____________Robyn -:- Silence of the Ass -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:28:40 (EST)
______________Rick -:- Silence of the Ass -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:40:04 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- Silence of the Ass -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:40:21 (EST)
________________Rick -:- Silence of the Ass -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:54:54 (EST)
__________________Scott T. -:- Silence of the Ass -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 13:10:02 (EST)
____________________eb -:- Silence of the Ass -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 13:25:50 (EST)
____________________Rick -:- Silence of the Ass -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 13:35:30 (EST)
______________________Jim -:- I thought I should vote too -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 14:51:15 (EST)
________________________JW -:- Forum Board of Directors -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 15:02:45 (EST)
__________________________Katie -:- Forum Board of Directors -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 15:27:24 (EST)
____________________________VP -:- Forum Board of Directors -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 15:30:08 (EST)
______________________________JW -:- Forum Board of Directors -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 15:32:08 (EST)
________________________________VP -:- Forum Board of Directors -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 15:43:01 (EST)
____________________________Robyn -:- Forum Board of Directors -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 16:42:09 (EST)
______________________________Katie -:- Forum Board of Directors -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 16:47:57 (EST)
________________________________Robyn -:- Forum Board of Directors -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 16:51:40 (EST)
__________________________VP -:- Forum Board of Directors -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 15:27:59 (EST)
____________________________Jim -:- Forum Board of Directors -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 15:32:34 (EST)
______________________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Forum Board of Directors -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 15:50:05 (EST)
________________________________eb -:- Forum Quorum -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:02:21 (EST)
______________________________Scott T. -:- Board bad, Quorum good -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 15:53:30 (EST)
________________________________VP -:- Board bad, Quorum good -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 16:04:40 (EST)
__________________________________Katie -:- Does this count as a quorum -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 16:40:35 (EST)
____________________________________JW -:- Does this count as a quorum -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 16:52:49 (EST)
______________________________________Katie -:- Does this count as a quorum -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:08:09 (EST)
________________________________________JW -:- Does this count as a quorum -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:09:54 (EST)
__________________________________________Katie -:- Does this count as a quorum -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:14:54 (EST)
____________________________________________JW -:- Does this count as a quorum -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:17:54 (EST)
________________________________JW -:- Board bad, Quorum good -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 16:47:13 (EST)
________________________________Robyn -:- Board bad, Quorum good -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 16:49:13 (EST)
______________________________JW -:- Forum Board of Directors -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:07:02 (EST)
________________________Robyn -:- I thought I should vote too -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 16:38:32 (EST)
____________VP -:- Silence of the Ass -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 13:15:47 (EST)
______________VP -:- Silence of the Ass -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 13:53:02 (EST)
______Rick -:- Heckle and Jeckle -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:06:26 (EST)
__Sir David -:- Heckle and Jeckle -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:19:21 (EST)
____Katie -:- Heckle and Jeckle -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:31:01 (EST)
______Sir David -:- Heckle and Jeckle -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 13:04:32 (EST)
________Katie -:- Reading all the posts. -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 14:22:01 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Sum rules -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 16:33:36 (EST)
______JW -:- Sum rules -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:00:34 (EST)
______Katie -:- Sum rules -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:01:22 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Sum rules -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:22:29 (EST)
__________JW -:- Sum rules -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:27:47 (EST)
____________VP -:- A pleasant afternoon -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:33:02 (EST)
__________Katie -:- Sum rules -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:51:00 (EST)
__eb -:- Heckle and Jeckle -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:39:15 (EST)
__Nigel -:- Heckle and Jeckle -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 14:15:50 (EST)
__JW -:- Heckle and Jeckle -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 14:50:27 (EST)
____VP -:- Exs are all different! -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 15:35:59 (EST)
____VP -:- Other forums do it -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:41:28 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Other forums do it -:- Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 09:21:36 (EST)
__Paul not Paula -:- Heckle and Jeckle -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:10:19 (EST)
____Nigel -:- weird glitch -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 19:57:52 (EST)
______Still Crazy -:- weird glitch -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 20:06:52 (EST)
________Robyn -:- weird glitch -:- Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 09:30:15 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- weird glitch--same here -:- Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 13:29:23 (EST)
________Brian -:- weird glitch - try it now -:- Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 14:48:38 (EST)
__________Still Crazy -:- weird glitch - try it now -:- Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 18:54:22 (EST)
____________Katie -:- weird glitch - try it now -:- Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 19:01:24 (EST)
__Still Crazy -:- Heckle and Jeckle -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 18:44:27 (EST)
____Anon -:- Theyz history boy! -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 20:15:01 (EST)
__Paula not Paul -:- Heckle and Jeckle -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 22:21:00 (EST)

Vayu -:- Accountability -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 06:49:12 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Vayu -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 09:10:41 (EST)
__VP -:- Accountability -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 10:00:43 (EST)

Petrou -:- bb's great FAUX PAS -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 05:06:10 (EST)
__JW -:- bb's great FAUX PAS -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 14:12:18 (EST)
__Veep -:- To bb -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:14:34 (EST)
__Mickey the Pharisee -:- bb's great FAUX PAS -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 18:28:03 (EST)
____Mr Ex -:- M's Suicide/Murder metaphors! -:- Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 05:40:55 (EST)
______Still Crazy -:- M's Suicide/Murder metaphors! -:- Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 11:16:38 (EST)
________eb -:- M's Suicide/Murder metaphors! -:- Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 12:22:53 (EST)
__________Still Crazy -:- M's Suicide/Murder metaphors! -:- Fri, Apr 24, 1998 at 11:51:22 (EST)

VP -:- Dilemma- a premie love song -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 23:30:11 (EST)
__Petrou -:- SEE HOW THEY RUN! -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 01:12:58 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Are you OK -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 01:25:27 (EST)
____Sir David -:- What growing fiasco -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 07:15:42 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Dilemma- a premie love song -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 08:30:03 (EST)
____VP -:- Dilemma- a premie love song -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 09:22:04 (EST)
______Nigel -:- Dilemma- a premie love song -:- Fri, Apr 24, 1998 at 17:01:13 (EST)

Vayu/Vacol -:- a break -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 21:59:53 (EST)
__Vayu -:- a break -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 22:02:24 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- a break -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 22:30:55 (EST)

Sir David -:- To Steve & anyone else -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 21:49:07 (EST)
__Steve A -:- To Steve & anyone else -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 22:45:58 (EST)
____Vayu -:- To Steve & anyone else -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 01:47:05 (EST)
__Robyn -:- To Steve & anyone else -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 08:43:25 (EST)

Toffee -:- Mind -:- Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 19:34:09 (EST)
__Vayu -:- Mind -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 01:51:23 (EST)
__JW -:- Mind -:- Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 15:05:38 (EST)
__Brian -:- Mind -:- Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 11:25:43 (EST)


Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 18:07:42 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Regrets -- Family
Message:
That thread about 'Heckle and Jeckle' down below makes me proud to hang out with you people. It's a true demonstration that there really is intelligent life after the cult.

Anyway, something eb and John said I think is important. This site has at least one function to help people sort through having been in a pretty destructive cult and coming out the other side, trying to understand what happened and why.

So, I wanted to start a thread talking about the thing I regret most about being in the cult, and something I still think about. That's my relationship with my family. I had a pretty good relationship with them. My dad was Irish Catholic, my mother is a WASP. I had two brothers and two sisters. [I was a middle child. Robyn, what does that mean?] After I got into the cult, I really blew off my entire life, law school, my friends and my family. They were pretty freaked at this total change in me. I moved into the ashram and I viewed Big M and the premies as my 'real family.' I felt bad about rejecting them, but I believed what M told me about he being my true father, and the chance I had to surrender to the lord. I also wrote a bunch of those looney letters, just like Jim and anon have quoted.

I recall Big M giving satsang at several Christmases in which he said he was happy that we in the ashram understood who our real family was, and that we didn't go see our 'unreal' family at the holidays. I also recall once he said that 'the only tie you have to your family is the one they gave you for Christmas.' I think M's bad relationship with his own mother and brothers might be partly the cause of this. Isn't it weird. The lord's dysfunctions become writ large among his devotees.

I recall once I got kind of a hysterical letter from my Mother asking that I PLEASE go to see her, and that she would be satisfied if she could just see me and talk to me. At the time, I was living 1000+ miles from home. I recall I wrote a letter to Big M about it, and I got a response from some sister in Denver who said I should surrender and trust M more, and that M was my true mother, father, brother, friend, just like we sang in Arti. I also talked to Bill Patterson about my concerns and he said M had made it very clear to him that our families were just another trap that might keep us from surrendering to the perfect master. He said M was always giving us opportunities to surrender more and that he would never give us something we couldn't handle. [Remember that line?] Since I was a 'vow of poverty' ashram premie, I had no means to go anyway, but I also didn't have permission. By the way, in the ashrams, there was a concerted effort to transfer people away from communities in which they had lived. It was felt they would be better off elsewhere, away from the temptations of family, friends, etc. I personally, heard mahatmas and initiators discuss this, including with me when I was ashram housefather.

A couple of years later my grandfather died. I couldn't go to his funeral. The ashram didn't have the money, and Ira Woods gave me satsang about it. My grandfather was 95, but he and I had been close. It was pretty devestating to my family that I wasn't there. But I had already missed so many other births, deaths, graduations, family events, etc., so they weren't really surprised. About a year after that, my little sister got married. My parents threw a big wedding, which was held the same weekend as Guru Puja festival in 1982. Again, there was no question that I would miss her wedding rather than miss darshan. I recall my sister calling me and I explained why I couldn't come. She said she accepted it, but I still cringe when I think about it.

After I left the cult, and started talking openly to my family, I saw how much I had hurt them over the years and how much hurt they felt about how I had rejected them. I felt astranged from them. They didn't understand the hold the cult had on me, and could only interpret what I had done as personal rejection. I had been very close to my two sisters. After the cult, my older sister really reached out to me, and because of her, I've been able to repair some of the damage. But you never forget the pain you cause people you love.

So, I don't know if other ex-premies feel this way. I usually don't think about it anymore. Those times with people you love that you lost, you can never get back. They are gone for good. And I do have regrets about that. And it's one of the things that I find most reprehensible about Big M. His fostering of the ashram, and disdain for families. I don't believe he has ever addressed this issue either, as is his wont to take responsbility for absolutely nothing he did to harm people.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 18:22:46 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: JW
Subject: Regrets -- Family
Message:
JW,
Thanks for a very powerful post. I agree; I'm proud of everyone and what has been happening here today. I really see a community at work, and that is great.
Your post about your family is really something. I never entered the ashram, and although I felt like an unworthy and weak Premie at the time, I am thankful that I never went that far. But, man, my heart aches when I read the ashram stories on this site.
When I was a Premie, I was fortunate that I didn't enter the ashram, and I was fortunate that my family tried to understand what was going on and didn't let me slam the door on them; they insisted on remaining active in my life. After I left DLM and M, they didn't hold it over my head or give me any trouble, they just accepted me.
I have an eighteen-year-old daughter who moved out in October and is living in Oakland with her boyfriend. He's an okay guy, but I have noticed how easy it is at that age to want to live your own life and disconnect from Mom and Dad (especially if Dad is a priest!). She has already missed several family events because she went somewhere with his family, but she knows that the door is always open and that both of them are welcome. You thought that you were following the Lord of the Universe, and of course you wanted to do whatever he said. It is difficult to forgive ourselves for hurting our families, but it is important to forgive yourself. Have you been able to mend fences? Thanks again for a powerful post.
Michael+
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Date: Fri, Apr 24, 1998 at 01:19:12 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: STORY TIME
Message:

I remember being in the broadripple and during arti
at the part -you are my mother you are my father,
a girl broke down and fell on the floor and started sobbing.

I saw one ashram guy at the broadripple treat his mom
coldly and tell her kind of angrily about how rawat
and the knowledge was blah blah blah and the whole
vibe was totally devoid of love of course.
Love amongst anybody was verboten unless it was going to
rawat. HE was Very heavy and adament about this.

I know one girl who gave away her baby. She remains childless
to this day. I saw her walking around the residence with it
and in 1979-80 you know how cursed she was by rawats
doctrine. I know another girl who gave up her child to her
family and left to live in miami to be near the lord and all his
demanding heaviness.

I know another girl who left a really fine guy because she
wanted to just do service in miami and not bother
with the distractions of having to have the father of
her daughter around wanting some attention. This was
during the late eighties when there were all these
part time instructor positions and she was told she
could end up one by miami inner circle types. She
kept the kid and would bring the daughter with her to
service. She will never find a guy like that again.

There are a whole lot of single premie women around here
who spent many years wasteing away in rawat hell.
That extremely heavy trip he laid on so many of us
non croatians had massive reprecussions all over the place.
Look at CD
He could have had a family and all kinds of things and
his freaking breath too.
Its just brutal.
This is going to make a hell of a book for anderson.
There is so much.
The idea that this forum will be boreing without premies
is not true.

The amount of broken and shattered families that can be directly
attributed to him is very high and unmeasureable.

I bought christmas presents for one ashram guy to give his
family at christmas. Not because he asked. He felt
like he was betraying rawat to show them any affection.
Standard effect of rawat on the troops.
We were his lock stock and barrel and he played it so
brazenly and hard with the crown and all that it is
really quite an amazing bit of evil madness.
And STILL he goes on.
barabara kolodny and whats his name wanted to get married and
rawat told them NO.
Family meant nothing to him. If it does now it is probably
for some selfish reason.
He cannot be let off the hook for his past.

Mira bai, the devotee in miami, was REAL in her belief that
he was lord. So she acted the gopi part out and was
stonewalled out of the close proximity of rawat and
she broke into his house and tried to cut her wrists and
bled on the carpet. rawat was FURIOUS. security caught hell
and she was banned from either darshan or programs or both.
(I will get further details) she was crushed and wrote
rawat a letter asking him to incarnate her with him in
another lifetime and killed herself.
I know two other girls closely that killed themselves
as a result of the intense -you recieved knowledge only if
you were moving in the ashram the same day and that is it for your
life-pressure of 1979. They were driven mad by the whole
thing and left the ashram and commited suicide.
That was when it was clearly stated that if you left the
ashram they would put up a tombstone in the ashram backyard for
you because you were DEAD. I dont know if any western
ashram put up a tombstone but dont tell me you didnt hear
that. WE sure did on the east coast. I wasnt in the ashram.
but that is a whole another story.

The guy who basically MADE the Holi gun at deca in miami
had to leave his family to come and do it and he told us
in satsang that the whole time he was working on it
rawat was always displeased and angry with him and that
one time he was under the holi stage and he said 'if you
crawl up the stairs... ' and rawat said 'what do you MEAN
CRAWL?' and the guy said 'oh that was just my bad english'
and rawat laughed and the guy said 'that was the only time I
felt like I did something right'. By the way, the guy spoke only
english.
He told us this story because he figured rawat was angry
with him because he missed his family and it was hard
for him to come and leave and work on the gun for so long.
So he was telling us in the deca satsang hall like we all
understood that rawat knows all and there are no compromises.
You know the logic.
Typical excuse makeing.
enough for tonight.
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Date: Fri, Apr 24, 1998 at 11:54:17 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: bill
Subject: STORY TIME
Message:
Dear Bill,
I hope that any premies who read this post don't degrade it and say it is lies. These stories break my heart and the coldness of M is brutal. How can they say he hasn't hurt me so I'm OK with him. It is so frustrating that they can't see what harm he has caused and that he doesn't even give a shit. What an Asshole he is. These things are black marks on his soul and if not before, when he dies he will understand, I hope.
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Apr 24, 1998 at 16:42:35 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: STORY TIME
Message:
Thank you Bill. I can't tell you how your post made me recall how it all felt, and to appreciate how many people got hurt. It's overwhelming sometimes just to consider it.

I recall that 'DECA work ethic' and the stories of how Big M would get furious and denigrate people, humiliate them really, and how those very people would speak about it like it was some great lesson, some personal lila, as opposed to what it really was, a sick, megalomaniac guru, treating other human beings like he owned them, and abusing them for his own personal satisfaction. We were so deluded, that in our minds, he DID own us.

I must admit, I never heard the tombstone story, but I heard a lot others that came close.

Thanks again, Bill, I know posting those painful memories is not always easy.
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Date: Fri, Apr 24, 1998 at 18:31:13 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: STORY TIME
Message:
bill,
Sad, sad post. Hits pretty close to home, I'm afraid. My friend called out for M when sick and prayed to him. Also tried to get ahold of M by letter and by phone. Got no answer and committed suicide.

A friend's preacher (with a large congregation) came to the hospital when his baby underwent surgery and visited every day for a week.  I get inspired by a story like that one.  VP
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Date: Fri, Apr 24, 1998 at 23:43:45 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: bill
Subject: Self abuse time
Message:
Thanks once again for yet more detailed and true accounts of what really happened. I was lucky because although I tried to kill myself in '76, I was given a second chance. If we say any prayers for anyone, then as well as praying for the living, let's say a prayer for those who didn't make it and who lost their lives.
Bill, I remember now that during the seventies and early eities, I had to pack in a several close relationships with women because I believed that Maharaji (who was the Lord) didn't want it. Later on, in my loneliness, I came to regret bitterly what I had done. I developed I kind of self loathing and hatred because I wanted a relationship but I felt guilty about it. I was truly a tortured soul for quite a few years because of this and I even began to physically mutilate myself, usually by striking myself on the head or legs with a hard object. Yes, the downside to this story is definitely no joke. Most ex-premies here appear to have things all together now but I can't pretend that I'm over it all, or ever will be.
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Date: Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 00:36:26 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Self abuse time
Message:
Dear David -
I don't think you are the only one here who has expressed (and perhaps still expresses) self-loathing. Maybe people do it in different ways, but I, for one, know that I don't have it all together yet, and I still do things to express that dislike of myself. I am glad to be relieved of the guilt feelings that were engendered in me by Maharaji's organization and that made me feel like I was a horrible person. I'm not sure if Maharaji could have made me feel that way if I hadn't already felt bad about myself in some way - I don't know if I would have gotten involved with his organization in the first place. It's hard to get over those feelings - I can testify to that. I am still working on it.

I know that I am NOT the only one here that thinks you are a most loving and beautiful soul. I am really glad that you are on the forum.

Love from Katie
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Date: Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 00:58:42 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Self abuse time
Message:
There are lots of people who were damaged in this way.
Some will show up here as stalwart devotees but they
are actually carrying wreckage around them.
I guess I will have to keep that in mind.

Isnt it the most amazing paradox that he got us to in fact
shun other humans and loveing relationships and the
point of this creation is exactly the opposite.

And he did it as the most blatently lord of the universe.
Even still he is like this.

I have been going around my environment like mother
thresa lately believe it or not.
Dispensing kindness and attention. Not at the forum maybe,
That is Katies Job.
It has taken me forever to throw off the slighty cold edge
of indifference that IS the fruit of the master.
One of the fruits.

People that expect us to 'move on, get a life' dont
recognise this stuff I think.

I think others will comment on your post.
I will get back to it also.
we understand.
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Date: Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 01:24:37 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: bill
Subject: Self abuse time
Message:
Hi Bill (and everyone),
It's not my job to dispense affection and kindness at the forum. But I do feel empathy and sympathy for many people who post here. I felt quite empathetic with David. I could really relate to what he said. I also felt that since David has given so much love and inspiration to people here, I was sad that he felt that way. He is much loved (so are you, Bill).

If anyone tells me to 'move on and get a life', you can probably guess what I'll say. Not very ladylike, eh?

Take care, Bill,
Katie
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Date: Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 13:03:22 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Self abuse time
Message:
David,
The best thing Maharaji did, in my opinion, was allowing me to get to have contact with people like you. You are a really wonderful person from the posts I have read.

Sometimes this place reminds me a bit of a funeral. Everyone laughs, eats, visits and has a good time. Everyone is really glad that they get to see one another again, but then they remember the reason that they are together. The bad part. Take care, VP
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Date: Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 22:24:34 (EST)
From: David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: VP
Subject: Self abuse time
Message:
Thanks for all your kind words, Bill, Katie and VP. I'll no doubt talk more about the effects on me of trying to follow Maharaji,in the future.
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Date: Sun, Apr 26, 1998 at 01:43:25 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Self abuse time
Message:
David,
Your post hit a nerve--I too attempted suicide. Twice in the 80's. When I could no longer suppress stuff using my belief in Maharaji and practicing knowledge techniques, I started having panic attacks. Spent seemingly endless hours sobbing. Stayed in the loony bin twice. I still have self esteem problems, but no one could convince me today that their cult is the best/right/only true way.
eb
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Date: Sun, Apr 26, 1998 at 14:08:48 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Self abuse time
Message:
Dear David,
Seems like you've come a long way though. I believe I recall you have a good relationship now and a child or 2? I'm glad you made it and as such a sensitive and caring person.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 22:23:21 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Regrets -- Family
Message:
Dear JW,
You wrote something recently that really, really hit me hard. I can't find the exact post, but the gist of it was that what we got was just not worth what we paid for it. Maharaji took (and still takes) more than he gives. This probably sounds sort of simple and stupid, but all of a sudden a light went on in my head.

I have regrets, but right now I'm sort of high from realizing I was had.

with lots of love,
eb
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Date: Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 01:45:10 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Regrets -- Family
Message:
Hi JW,

I just read your post, and am near tears. I had a grandpa whom I never got to say 'goodbye' to, so I can empathize with you. Your whole post is a very powerful testimony to the destructive power of cults, and control.

I hope and pray that the relationships with your family can and are being rebuilt. Thank you again for sharing.

Grace and peace be with you.

-gumby

p.s.
This Ira character should have had his demonic rear kicked. I know that evil does not beget good, but in my weakness, thats how I feel. I'll pray for him also.
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Date: Fri, Apr 24, 1998 at 00:22:55 (EST)
From: pokey
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: gumby
Message:
Hi GUMBY,

consider adding a prayer to your list.
how about praying that prem rawat stops playing god.
However you want to word it.
And on the days of the Miami event, at the times he speaks,
pray that he opens his mouth and he reveals himself.
Thats a prayer even petrou could say.

I heard recently that the miracle of dunkirk was this;
the germans crashed up against the 400,000 british and
french troops and stopped. They could have crushed and/or
captured them with thier panzer blitzkrieg and the disarray of
the british and french positions. The whole of England had a
national day of prayer. Everything stopped. Consider what
350,000 or so british troops means in a country that small.
Every town and neighbor had freinds over thier trapped.
So what happened? For unknown reasons hitler stopped and
for three days in a row the channel experienced clear
calm weather that was VERY rare. All manner of small ships could
make the trip and did. The people at the time considered it a
miracle, or an act of favor by the concious power.

Or perhaps dna has a sway over weather or whatever.
The guys here tell me these kind of things to I guess
reel me into thier camp. I have been asked to join
'accountability groups' by different guys but I have an
excuse I use. The real reason I stay away from these
groups is that in them they get into each others heads and
ask all kinds of questions about your viewpoints.
I figure it would be a bit unfair to expose them to this
wild mishmash.
You sound slightly promise keeperish. Are you?
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Date: Fri, Apr 24, 1998 at 00:49:21 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: megumby@hotmail.com
To: pokey
Subject: gumby
Message:
Hi pokey,

Thanks for your post. I actually do pray that m will find our Lord. I figure if Saul's heart could be so awesomely converted, then anybody's can. But, I'm not holding my breath. I was not familiar with the Dunkirk miracle. It is a great story.

You wrote: I have been asked to join 'accountability groups' by different guys but I have an excuse I use.

What is an accountability group?

You also wrote: You sound slightly promise keeperish. Are you?

That is an interesting question. Do I sound like a Promise Keeper? I do know a few people who are, great, great people. I actually have never disclosed whether I am a man or woman. It is interesting that you assume me to be a man.

How/what is your walk with God like?

GAGBWY

-gumby
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Date: Fri, Apr 24, 1998 at 01:02:08 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: gumby and pokey
Subject: gumby
Message:
Hi Gumby,
Sorry for butting in here, but your post surprised me as I always assumed that you were male too. I think that one of the reasons we assume you are a man is because the original 'Gumby' was a man (sort of!).

Also, I have found that most people on the net are presumed to be men unless they state otherwise (because most of the people on the net ARE men!).

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 03:12:37 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: gumby
Message:
Hi Katie,

Thanks for your post. It is an interesting issue, in how we perceive other individuals. For now I guess it is not germaine to most of the discussions, so I will remain incognito.

It is a relatively quiet evening. What is the current resolution regarding premies? I don't see much action.

GAGBWY

-gumby
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Date: Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 07:02:55 (EST)
From: pokey
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: gumby
Message:
They are gasping at the stories.

Whats to say? Its not true?
Perhaps, but

I could take a couple guesses on who you are, but you just
said you want to remain unguessed so I wont even try.

Whoever you are, the value of the main message of your man
has been such a good help to people.

For rawat to come and play father of jesus/yeshua
and deal in the breath and to have all this video
footage and plane and music and words of his false claims
and go unchecked is way out of line.

What the hell do you have to do to qualify as the antichrist
anyway? Your opinion please.

The crown, he still wants to play god and redefine god
yet he himself doesnt believe in god.
Perhaps bobby would comment on THAT.

You asked a couple questions.
Next time on those.
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Date: Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 21:14:22 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: megumby@hotmail.com
To: pokey
Subject: gumby
Message:
Hi pokey,

Thanks for your response.

You wrote:
Whoever you are, the value of the main message of your man has been such a good help to people.
What did you mean?

I think that for m to go unchecked is very out of line. The internet is an amazing tool in that regard. The ability for many, many people from all over the world to share testimonies relating to their experiences with m is mind-blowing, way-cool. There is good reason for m to not like the internet. He is probably scared silly of it.:)

In regards to the qualifications for the antichrist, I believe that anyone who by their doctrines, teachings, actions, and lives oppose Christ are by definition fully qualified for being an antichrist.

It is written:

Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist - he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 1 John 2:22.

It is also interesting to note:

...This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist,... 1 John 4:2

Take care pokey

GAGBWY

-gumby
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Date: Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 09:03:42 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Regrets -- Family
Message:
JW,
What a great post. I've been meaning to sit down and respond to this, but I am short on time today. As a person who was on the other side, with a loved one who missed alot of important things in my life I want to tell you one thing. It may or may not apply to your situation, as I don't know your family.

I would give almost anything I have if I could just have that person back in my life right now. Maybe your family feels this way, too, even if they aren't showing it to you. At least you may still have a chance. You are alive and so are they. I wouldn't give up on it anyway. Being the one to try or always having to make the first steps is really hard, as is mending relationships. If it is something you really want, I wouldn't give up on it or delay it any longer.

VP
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Date: Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 12:36:55 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Regrets -- Family
Message:
Thanks, VP. Actually my relationship with my family members is very good. As I said, I didn't know how exactly to break the ice, and I don't think they did either, but my older sister really reached out to me and was sort of my 'bridge' back to the family. The first thing she did was invite me to go on a week-long bicycle trip, away from family and friends, and I think after that, the rest just fell into place. And that was about 12 years ago.

Also in the last two years, we have had several deaths in the family, including my brother, my nephew and my dear old dad. Those kind of events really pull the survivors together and make events of the past seem very small and remote by comparison.

I am really interested in your perspective from the family side of the issue. Please let us know whenever you get a chance.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 10:34:22 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: JW
Subject: Regrets -- Family
Message:
Dear Joe,
Your post makes me so thankful, once again, that I never went into an ashram. I wasn't close to my family but I do remember them coming to the premie house where I lived to pick me up on a number of occassions. I don't think they ever had dinner with us but they met everyone and got 'the tour' of the house. Most, if not all of the people in the house had contact with their families. If M ever said anything against keeping contact with your family, I either didn't hear it (was probably gossiping with the premie next to me), or just glossed over it.
As far as being a middle child, I wish I still had the tapes of the workshop. They were very interesting and I'd listen to them when I walked on the track until my older daughter, then in her selfesh teenage years, used them to tape music. Kids! I remember the middle child gets things stirred up and then stands back and watches the scene unfold, they are natural peace makers, abitrators, diplomats. That is all I remember about middle children but there were also all sorts of family dynamics that could disrupt these attributes. Are any of those things like you?
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 12:42:43 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Regrets -- Family
Message:
I think it was mostly to the ashram premies that Maharaji said that anti-family stuff. Also, a lot of it came through others. Big M might not say it so much directly himself, but PAM and initiators told me things, like Patterson and Ira and others, that Big M had said directly to them. And I don't want to malign Patterson either. He was very nice about it; but he just told me what Maharaji told him, that family was just another obstacle to the goal of surrendering to the perfect master.

Maybe some of that 'middle child' stuff does ring true. I sometimes do like to stir things up, and I find that I learn best and understand my feelings best through a kind of dialectic. You know, present the thesis and anthithesis and come to some kind of middle ground. Maybe that's why I like argument.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 13:05:45 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Archive online
Message:
I snuck home and finished uploading the files for the latest archive. Gotta go back now :(
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 08:28:22 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Heckle and Jeckle
Message:
This is an ex-premie-only thread. Don't anyone even bother responding to replies by any premies to this thread, as your reply will be deleted along with theirs. I'm not the slightest bit interested in their input on this subject.

It's one thing to allow the neighbor kids access to your swingset when their Daddy won't let them have one of their own. It's altogether another thing to allow them to monopolize it or crowd you off.

In our first-ever mid-week archive which I ran this morning (and will soon have online), out of 709 posts there were 154 from Vacol and Petrou. That seems a bit disproportionate to me. Especially when each morning when I checked the forum I had to wonder what trouble they were going to be causing me now. I've gotten complaints from ex's who felt the same thing, and so I've packed the two lads off to Kanguru Kamp for the time being.

The subject here is harassment. It's my personal opinion that people who are not engaged in anything more than bulk posting of strutting threats and demands for accountability from the people providing the platform for their antics have worn out their welcome. As Selena said, it's our forum. I can limit their input size and quantity, but don't have the time right now to make the necessary forum modifications since I'm involved in an expansion of the site that's been neglected. I was on the phone with Leslie for two hours until 1:30 AM my time Monday night and am still recovering. So I'll get to the changes perhaps this weekend.

It's your thread, people. I want to hear from you on this subject.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 08:48:56 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Brian
Subject: Heckle and Jeckle
Message:
Dear Brian,
I for one VERY, VERY RARELY read Petrou's posts. I only recently began to read most of Vacol's. The sheer numbers of their posts make more work for you and if they are repetative and have the goal of bulking or clogging up the forum then limiting posts is a response to that. I really can't say what I feel about their posts, as to my opinion about their repetative nature. I don't see it as a problem other than the work it causes you.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 09:40:02 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Heckle and Jeckle
Message:
Brian,
I can't BELIEVE I am going to agree with you on this, but I do-at least about Petrou. (I don't read enough of Vacol/Vayu's posts to have an opinion on that one.)

I have read some posts on here where the premies really contribute to the forum--even if it's just for a chuckle, but Petrou was making threats (even if they were stupid and childish.) You gave him plenty of chances and he really abused them. The rules on the forum preview state that flaming is discouraged, yet that is ALL Petrou's posts ever did, IMHO. I don't view this as censorship. I view this as 'time out' :) VP
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 10:04:52 (EST)
From: John
Email: kreilkamp@mindspring.com
To: Brian
Subject: Heckle and Jeckle
Message:
Brian:
I believe it's a total waste of time to converse with petrou, vacol/vayu. I think excluding them might force them to make an effort to construct their own web page so that they too will have a presence on the web. I would love to see that just so they won't come around here anymore.

This is an exageration, but sometimes it occurs to me that allowing premies here is like allowing drinkers to go to AA meetings and make fun of the AA members.

We have bent over backwards to be fair to premies and really why should we allow them to do something their own Master won't allow them to do?
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 15:37:04 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: John
Subject: Heckle and Jeckle
Message:
Good point John, but I don't like this analogy:

This is an exageration, but sometimes it occurs to me that allowing premies here is like allowing drinkers to go to AA meetings and make fun of the AA members

This seems to imply that if we let them stay, we'll all be corrupted by their message and start drifting back to the lotus feet of the Lord of the Unicorns himself. Isn't it more like letting people from the temperance movement lurk in your favourite bar-room bleating about how they have the answer and we're all lost souls? If anyone's gonna be led astray here, it must be the premies themselves, surely.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 16:00:21 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I agree Nigel
Message:
Yeah, you're right, my analogy probably sucks.

However, my reasoning is that I do think worshipping the guru is an addiction - psychological, emotional, I'm not sure what the correct clinical term would be for this kind of addiciton. And I do think, like an addiction to heroin or alcohol, it's unhealthy and weakens a human being.

I'll have to think about it some more. You're right, it's not like the premies that post here are in any way like the Sirens of Titan or something luring us with their beautiful words. Really, just the opposite.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 10:05:26 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Frank Burns syndrome
Message:
Brian:

I've got no problem at all with what you are doing, except I'll kind of miss Petrou. On the other hand, he's a little like the Frank Burns character in MASH. Just a little too one-dimensional to be believable. Maybe we could find a 'Charles Emerson Winchester III' out there somewhere. The only trouble is that the sharpest crayons on that side of the box know better than to get into a rational debate when they have an indefensible position. Have you noticed that even Mili (whom I am not equating with 'Charles') is too embarrassed by their association to post here recently as a premie?

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 10:36:32 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Heckle and Jeckle
Message:
Good move Brian,
Petrou abused his right to post here and I was going to say that, if this was my site, I would definately pull his plug. The guy pushed his luck too far. As for Vacol/Vayou he was also getting too prolifically incoherent and inconsiderately disruptive.. I say if somebody comes to your party and starts spoiling it for everyone else you should tell them to get the fuck out. If they puke on your carpet kick 'em out really fast! I vote that you keep them out too. Make some room for people who have something sensible to say.
You know, if you let these type of people take advantage they will sabotage the forum without any hesitation. That is their obvious nasty intent.

I think we will all probably agree that even Mili, with his lengthy 'cut and pasted' articles, attempts to close the newsgroup etc, is really no more than an occasionally pestilential opponent. At least he has a life. These guys have reached new heights of persistent obnoxiousness which, I for one, have really had enough of. They need to go get a life rather than hang out here trying to create a disturbance.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 11:08:29 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: all
Subject: a few questions
Message:
Brian and I talked about this subject last night (until one in the morning...) I agree with him that the posts by Vacol/Vayu and Petrou were harassing the forum participants by their constant repetitive-sounding posts. In some cases I found the posts themselves to be somewhat alarming, bordering on threatening, particularly Petrou's campaign to vilify Bill.

There are a couple of options here. Petrou and Vacol could either be blocked from posting altogether, or they could be limited to a certain number of posts per day. If I read Brian's message right, he's asking for your opinion on these things. (We already dicussed the option of having a password protected forum on here, and it was voted down resoundingly.)

Also, some people have suggested giving the premies their own forum, or establishing a forum that's just for ex-premies. The problem is that we (the exes) pay for this forum with both our money and time. Both of these are stretched to the limit right now. I think that the premies or fence-sitters know that they can set up their own forum any time they want (on Paradise, for example) they just prefer to use ours.

Oh, yeah, I support Brian's blocking of Petrou and Vacol. I am still questioning whether one or both of them should be allowed to make a certain number of posts a day. I also think we need to amend the forum rules to specifically disallow this type of harassment by anyone.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:22:45 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: a few questions
Message:
Katie:

I also think we need to amend the forum rules to specifically disallow this type of harassment by anyone.

I support this expansion of the rules, particularly since I think this sort of harassment is inevitable and we need to take some preventative precautions. I am also concerned about threats to professional and financial well being, as well as personal reputation. I don't see why these haven't been included as 'threats' before.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 10:47:45 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Heckle and Jeckle
Message:
I guess I'm in the minority here. I think we should let them stay and ignore them if necessary. I was doing that until yesterday when I slipped and posted some responses. It became clear their intention is sabotage, but I think that's okay. I don't think they can really sabotage anything. In the same way many of us profess that premies shouldn't be worried about criticism towards maharaji, because if he's real, then what does it matter... I think the opposite's true as well.

I also think it's good to accept our ideas being challenged, even if it's in a way we don't like. Vayu was pushing JW for some documented statistics on EV's financial information, and although I think it's irrelevant, I don't think it should be censored.

On the other hand, Brian, if these guys are creating useless work for you, like you say, I support you in 86ing them on that basis. I think you're being really generous to operate this site and deserve some respect in that regard; from the ex's and from the premies. So I'll vote for a rule they should reduce the number of posts.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 11:09:56 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Heckle and Jeckle
Message:
So I'll vote for a rule they should reduce the number of posts.

Yes Rick, but how do you propose to enforce that rule? I think that the number of posts isn't the only issue. We all get a bit tired of reading long threads that are not of any particular interest to us. It's the fact that Petrou was deliberately increasing the volume of his posts purely to irritate the majority of people here, rather than to pursue a friendly or interesting line of conversation, that makes his actions reprehensible.

Most people that post here are relatively bearable but Petrou in particular has to be locked out. Vacol is borderline but I don't think it would do any harm for him to stew in his own juice for a bit. He is prone to enjoying the opportunity to be generally disruptive. I would be quite grateful to be locked out myself. Then I could get on with some work and my wife would stop complaining that I spend too long on the Internet!
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 11:20:27 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Heckle and Jeckle
Message:
Dear Anon and Rick - the number of posts per day per ISP can be set electonically by Brian, so limiting the number of posts is a valid option. I think it might make people think more about the actual content of what they are posting - for example Vacol-Vayu posted a number of similar posts to JW late last night when JW had probably turned off his computer and gone to bed. (Neither Vayu or Petrou appear to be aware of variations in local time among the posters here.) Petrou has posted many many posts during the early morning (US) hours of a single day which essentially say exactly the same thing. He's not likely to get an answer at that time of day no matter how many posts he makes.

By the way, Anon, Brian could block you if you wanted - maybe your wife could e-mail him. We were thinking about blocking Jim too - just to help him out with his time management problems.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 11:38:58 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Brian
Subject: Heckle and Jeckle
Message:
I've been thinking about this since last night, and I even e-mailed a few of you about this problem. I agree that these ninnies have abused this site, and, in my heart of hearts, I want to exile them from the site, but then they may think that they have won. If we limit them, their few posts per day may get even longer (in Vayu/Vacol's case) and more incoherent, and Petrou will probably spew even more threats and nonsense. If we leave things the way they are now, we may all go insane (or inane like them!)! So, I think I'll go with the exile option. Too bad we can't exile them to a Premie Forum, such as Scott suggested (in an e-mail message).
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 11:46:04 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Silence of the Ass
Message:
Katie,

I agree with what you are saying about the time of Petrou's postings occuring when everyone almost everyone is offline. He obviously doesn't care for any real disscussion anyway. He just wants to be a nuisance. Since exs PAY for the site and MAINTAIN it, where is it written that they HAVE to put up with the nonsense that has been going on around here? Petrou has had his chance. He has nothing of value to say.

I'm with Anon, I would eject anyone from a party who was misbehaving this badly. I vote to eject Petrou indefinately. Let him go pay for and start his own site. Rick, I see what you are saying and I stopped reading his posts, too. Rick, think of it like this: The USA is a democracy, but we have rules. You can do what ever you want until you break one. If you murder someone and are caught, then you suffer the consequences. Petrou broke the rules by harrassment and flaming and threatening, so he doesn't need to post anymore. I don't think this is the same thing as censoring someone based purely upon not liking what they had to say.

I don't know about Vacol. Has he threatened anyone? Has he harrassed anyone? I haven't read. If he hasn't and his only crime is accessive posting, then maybe you should cut him back. Maybe you should cut me and Scott back, too (snicker). Brian, if it does make more work for you, I'll stop posting as much. Did you get my email about Leslie? VP
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 11:52:30 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: VP
Subject: Silence of the Ass
Message:
Vacol said that he would 'take the Mickey out of' me, whatever THAT means, but he really hasn't threatened anyone. I think that his.....poetry is......reason......enough for......exile.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:23:18 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Silence of the Ass
Message:
Dear Micheal,
Isn't a Mickey a drug in a drink? That doesn't make sence though does it. Maybe it was to make your name then be the Pharisee. I have been trying to give Vacol the benifit of the doubt but I was ahgast when he called you an asshole because the poetry was annoying you. Maybe I am to trusting.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:37:50 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Silence of the Ass
Message:
I believe 'taking the mickey' out of someone is an English expression that means 'taking the piss out of them' or deflating them by razzing them or exposing them in an amusing way. Sort of like dressing someone down in a joking manner.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 01:54:14 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Rick
Subject: Silence of the Ass
Message:
Rick,
If that's what it means, he was probably right. I've been reading my posts, and I AM an asshole sometimes!
Michael
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Date: Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 11:28:38 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Silence of the Ass
Message:
I never saw that in your posts, Mickey. Maybe I skipped one.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:17:23 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Silence of the Ass
Message:
VP,
I think it's more complicated than if you commit a crime and get caught, you pay the consequences. There are rules of evidence, consideration of motives, opportunity, intent, etc. Then, even if you're obviously guilty, a jury can nullify and find you not guilty based on race, religion and other prejudices. The system is set up to make sure no one innocent is punished, and part of that, is that sometimes guilty people go free to protect the rights of the innocent.

Perhaps Petrou and Vacant did harrass and flame people, but I've harrassed premies, although more moderately, and both Jim and I, and others have flamed premies. So I'm proposing that we be consistent and not allow our anger at their stupidity to administer a punishment that doesn't fit the crime.
Rick
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:28:40 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Rick
Subject: Silence of the Ass
Message:
Dear Rick,
I agree with you on this and also that if it makes tons more work for Brian he needs to address that issue and do what he has to do not to live his life for the forum!
Also a thought on the begining of your post that may or may not be relavent to anything here.
The system is set up to make sure no one innocent is punished, and part of that, is that sometimes guilty people go free to protect the rights of the innocent.
There are also innocent who are 'proven' guilty and even, in some cases, put to death.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:40:04 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Silence of the Ass
Message:
Robyn,
Clearly you're right. But I think that supports the use of safeguards, as even with the safeguards, injustice still happens.
Rick
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:40:21 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Silence of the Ass
Message:
Rick:

The US system of jurisprudence is set up to avoid 'alpha' errors: to ensure that the innocent are not punished, or to err on the side of insufficient restraint. Other systems, such as the English and especially the French, are set up to avoid 'beta' errors, to ensure adequate protection of the public, or to err on the side of too much restraint. In this case, the mission ought to determine the type of error we guard against, and since the overriding issue here is therapeutic rather than informational the 'beta' paradigm seems more appropriate than the 'alpha.' If we want to change the mission, I'd be willing to consider changing the paradigm.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:54:54 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Silence of the Ass
Message:
Scott,
I'm not sure what 'therapeutic' or 'informational' mean in this case, but practically speaking, if we act in a manner that is inconsistent and/or start the ball rolling to limit opinion, I think we defeat ourselves. I think we undermine our credibility by setting up a system that avoids beta errors by running the risk of appearing authoritarian and heavy handed; the consequences are minor by avoiding alpha errors... maybe someone gets insulted or annoyed but no one really gets hurt. On the other handed, banning someone from the forum is final and although probably not that big a deal in anyone's life, it carries a message that I would see as foreboding, if I was a spectator.
Rick
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 13:10:02 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Silence of the Ass
Message:
Rick:

the consequences are minor by avoiding alpha errors... maybe someone gets insulted or annoyed but no one really gets hurt.

Ah, but there is the rub. What makes you certain no one gets hurt? You talk about the impression made on observers, and although that has some importance I maintain that that consideration itself is connected with an 'informational' mission. In my mind that is decidedly secondary. We can, very definitely, be hurt by being distracted, and by undermining the therapy that a newly severed premie might be experiencing from the likes of that idiot Petrou. If we allow a free-for-all it will very definitely be at the expense of those people. Things are going to get worse. We've just seen the beginning. If the purpose of this site is to bring down Maharaji then so be it, but therapy will be out the window, so to speak. Count on it. Do you want to rearrange your life to accommodate this mission, if you don't have to? Can you speak for others not yet posting here? Who represents them?

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 13:25:50 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Silence of the Ass
Message:
Scott,

You define the dilemma well. So is this supposed to be therapeutic? Or informational? I'm not here to bring down Maharaji so much as to make sense out of 10 lost years of my life. I guess I have been seeking therapy. Early on I figured I'd quit reading and participating on this Forum when I was really through working out some issues. The philosophical discussions are rather enticing but the aggressive debates are not appealing to me.

Your friend,
eb
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 13:35:30 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Silence of the Ass
Message:
Scott,
You may be right, the interruption may get worse. But in my case, nothing did so much to send me away from maharaji as crazy premie thinking and behavior. The distraction you speak of being hurtful was to me helpful, because it demonstrated more clearly the downfall of cult programming. I understand that may not be as helpful to others, but I think we do have to speak for others not yet posting here because they can't, and they matter. Agreed, they matter less than those posting here now, and I think the majority should rule in this case, so I support whatever the group decides. However, I see a downside in taking more control over the site because it will decrease the stimulation that I find valuable. There aren't that many premies posting here and I wonder if just chatting amongst ourselves will become inbred and boring, and just die down. The ideal premie we all wait for, who will discuss rationally and behave properly, will never come. I'm gathering that you don't think premies are necessary for the therapeutic process you speak of, but I don't think including them will prevent that therapy from taking place. One can ignore premies that misbehave by not reading or responding to their posts. I understand that flooding could eventually take place that would make it so cumbersome that it would no longer be realistic, and I think at that point it would be wise to act.
Rick
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 14:51:15 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: I thought I should vote too
Message:
Hi,

Yes, I'm taking a break but that doesn't mean I won't lurk 'now and then'. (I know, I'm pathetic.) But I thought I'd speak up first on this important issue.

We've mulled this over before. Everyone loves the idea of 'free speech' perhaps particularly in the context of discussion about a cult that somehow lost sight of that lofty ideal. (Mind you, there was a goofy period in '76 when satsang was a wonderful blabfest, bullsession kind of thing. I remember that I personally would vascillate then between expressing my 'mind' [angers, desires, detachments, fear and doubt] and giving 'heavy' trad satsang, depending on the night. Schizo.)

But I agree with Anon, it's our party, not a test case for the American Civil Liberties Union. (He probably doesn't even know about the ACLU but, as he's posting anonymously, if he criticizes me for putting words in his mouth, I'll out him!)

Anyway, I think that no one should be allowed to partake in a discussion unless they're willing to actually engage with some modicum of sincerity. Okay, big question -- who are we to decide? Aren't we more prone to accomodate those we agree with than 'opponents'? Rick's concern about the slippery slope is a really valid one.

How about this -- say it takes a quorum of 5 or so to decide that someone's treating this opportunity for dialogue disingenously. (Try THAT one, Robyn, without a spellchecker!) Five people agree, then Brian announces plans to kick the guy off. Then, if the guy can't get at least three people to vote for his retention, he's gone. The trick is the people who vote for him to stay have to do so on the single gorund that, in their honest opinion, they find that he IS sincerely trying to discuss things fairly.

Something like that, anyway. One benefit of all this, by the way, is that the 'accused' will be free to make his own case to everyone that he is, in fact, sincere. It probably won't fly -- that's how he got into the mess to begin with -- but at least he's got every opportunity to practise his MIND skills one more time before back to the bliss fields.

There might be some interesting cases (no pun intended). That is, Chris, for example. Katie and I in particular have discussed and even argued about his sincerity in this discussion. She has, at certain times, given him benefit for 'doing the best he can'. I
haven't. Anyway, we could all talk about it, as we do anyway, only this time there's some possible action that might result.

If the worst thing a premie ever accuses me of is keeping them out of this discussion, I'll sleep easy. Of course the first thing I'd ask such a banishee is what it was they wanted to say anyway? If it was just to remind us of how we used to think, they can relax, there will always be new premies popping in with various levels of mental integrity in tact.

By the way, I talked with Linda Gross again last night. I have to say, I really do find her quite likeable. Well, whatever. She got my fax and promised to get it to Maharaji somehow, hopefully before she goes to Miami in May. I won't be posting for a while, I DON'T THINK, but of course I'll let you all know of any developments.
Oh yeah, Raja Ji remembers our little meeting apparently. Woopie doo.

LET THE DEBATE BEGIN!!
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 15:02:45 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim and Brian
Subject: Forum Board of Directors
Message:
Maybe Jim's idea of an ex-premie board of directors wouldn't be a bad idea. It could be used to adress particular situations that appear to be causing problems. Brian could refer his concerns to the Board, he being a member of course, and they could decide how to proceed, letting everyone know, on the forum, what the decision is and why. That might be a good compromise.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 15:27:24 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: JW
Subject: Forum Board of Directors
Message:
I think that is a good idea, JW, because it's difficult to make these judgements by oneself.

Now, are there five people who would like to serve on the board of directors?
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 15:30:08 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Forum Board of Directors
Message:
I would, but I'll bet you have to have knowledge and give your name...
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 15:32:08 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Forum Board of Directors
Message:
No, VP. I nominate you as a member if this gets set up. I think you bring a unique and very valuable point of view to the forum. And I say this as a 'card carrying member' of the ACLU.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 15:43:01 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Forum Board of Directors
Message:
Thank you, JW. I think you should be on, too, and Jim if he isn't on vacation. Let's see what Brian wants to do.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 16:42:09 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Forum Board of Directors
Message:
Dear Katie,
If it came to that I would be willing to be a part of it. Although not having a home computer may make that offer less than ideal for the forum.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 16:47:57 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Robyn
Subject: Forum Board of Directors
Message:
Hi Robyn (and all) -
See my message below 'Does this count as a quorum?' My idea is that proposing it as a thread and getting at least (some) number of exes to express their opinion would be a good way of getting a quorum. That way we wouldn't have to run around and find everyone on some Board of Directors and get their opinion. I guess it would be good to decide on a number of people that would constitute a quorum - I have no idea what that would be. There are about 20 exes (and ex-aspirants) that post on here regularly right now, but this number varies - I assume a quorum would be a certain percentage of this number of people.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 16:51:40 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Forum Board of Directors
Message:
Dear Katie,
Sounds good, I'm working my way down the thread now. I'll have you know I think this is important enough to leave here late. I don't have to go to job 2 and want to keep up with this important thread.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 15:27:59 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Forum Board of Directors
Message:
Interesting idea, JW. Why don't we try the premie way and I'll wear a green carnation and you and Jim can grab the guy and rough him up a bit before he pleads his case to the Board...

Seriously though, I'll bet this Board idea would save Brian on the phone bills.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 15:32:34 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Forum Board of Directors
Message:
Sorry, I wasn't talking about a fixed Board. I just meant a 'quorum' of five. In other words, if some ex can get four others to agree that someone's not posting in good faith, that's enough and Brian puts them on notice. Then, if they can't find at least three to dispute that single proposition (i.e. NOT to get into whether or not 'bad faith' posters should be vanquished, that matter already having been settled), they're out.

Or maybe it should be five and five.

Lots of ways to work this out. That's all I'll say about it.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 15:50:05 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Jim
Subject: Forum Board of Directors
Message:
I prefer the quorum idea to the Board of Directors idea. As a priest, I have to work with vestries (church B. o. D.s) and it gets very political. The quorum idea is best as it can work quickly as opposed to getting the Board together to make a decision. I also prefer this to exile as it allows the crazy people to realize that there are limits to the abuse we will take from them. I vote for quorum.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:02:21 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Forum Quorum
Message:
I vote for the 5 and 5 Quorum idea. It sounds expedient.

eb
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 15:53:30 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Board bad, Quorum good
Message:
A Board of Directors has one real downside. It makes a perfect target, for legal action and otherwise. There are other downsides too. It's a bureaucracy for heaven sake.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 16:04:40 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Board bad, Quorum good
Message:
Good point about the legal aspect. I'm for the quorum, IF this is acceptable to Shri webmaster. I think that Brian needs to make the final call on limiting posts as he has to do the work.

I don't think that we should ban Vacol after reading his thread with JW. Either he's sincere or he's hanging himself. Give him some more rope. (That was not a death threat, for those of you who are a bit slower in the audience...)
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 16:40:35 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Does this count as a quorum
Message:
I've unofficially, and possibly inaccurately) counted 15 exes posting in this thread, so far, counting VP (and I'd count Gumby, too, if he wanted to post). All have offered an opinion. (I didn't add up the votes for the different options yet.) Does this make a quorum? If so, I'd say that proposing something in a thread and having everyone offer their opinion is the best/fastest/easiest way to get some kind of consensus, with Brian having veto power, of course.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 16:52:49 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Does this count as a quorum
Message:
I don't understand. Do you mean just as to this issue? I think we need something to address issues that come up in the future as well. That's why I think a Board is a good idea. Of course, it would have to be people available via e-mail, but I don't think that's a problem.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:08:09 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: JW
Subject: Does this count as a quorum
Message:
No, I mean in general. I mean that if Brian has a problem, can he propose it to the group as a whole and have us talk about it and come to a concensus as we are doing now. So far we've had a kind of unofficial Board of Directors, which consists of Brian talking to people on the phone. Brian then makes the ultimate decision.

I'm not averse to a Board of Directors idea, but if that method of decision making is chosen, I do think it should be six or seven people, with only five needed to make a decision. Also, we need to get Brian an 800 number or something.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:09:54 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Does this count as a quorum
Message:
Who is 'the group as a whole?'
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:14:54 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Does this count as a quorum
Message:
OK, I see what you mean. It's the exes that happen to be reading the forum that day, so it's a pretty random sample (although most of us read the forum daily, at least during the week. Same thing for a quorum.

When Michael talks about a quorum in his church, I am assuming that he means that everyone is church members. But the forum is fluid and we don't really have members, so what I hear you saying, Joe, is that decisions could be made by a group of people who don't post very much, and who maybe don't have much interest in the outcome? Is that right?
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:17:54 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Does this count as a quorum
Message:
Yes, and also that the appearance is arbitrary.

Also, look at this thread! Not only do we have 'yes' and 'no' responses, but we also have a whole bunch of alternatives, or 'how about this' stuff. That isn't very helpful to Brian, but that's the nature of decision making if you just throw the issue out to 'the group.'

Again, I'm opposed to banning people period. But if we do it, let's do it fairly, consistently and by a group who have some consensus among themselves what criterea they are supposed to use.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 16:47:13 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Board bad, Quorum good
Message:
The problem with a 'quorum' is, what is it? A quorum of WHAT? I can think of at least 20 ex-premies who post here regularly, do you mean a quorum of that? If it's a quorum of whoever in online at any moment, I think that's unfair.

At least with a Board, the decision makers are known and accountable. The 'quorum' idea just sounds too arbitrary.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 16:49:13 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Board bad, Quorum good
Message:
Scott and all,
In my limited experience with a quorum it was a quorum of a board vote. In this case would the 5 person quorum consist of differnt people each time by some means of first to volunteer or what?
BTW, I find all this, working out the kinks wonderful. The Quaker school my girls went to in grade school was administered by the parents, we did the work, paid the bills and had lengthlyand sometimes heated meetings because it all meant so much to all of us, same here.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:07:02 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Forum Board of Directors
Message:
Jim, this leaves the decision open to the charge that the decision was made arbitrarily. Who are the other four? Any other exes in the entire world? Just people who read the forum? Just people who post on it? Post when, and how often? The four people most likely to agree with me?

Also, I think it's a good idea that the same group of people talk about how to make these decisions and have some kind of common understanding as to the criterea. If I can just go find four others who agree with me, and can get someone banned, I think that won't happen. It leaves open the possibility of banning someone for personal reasons, or at least the appearance of that.

As you know, I'm against banning anyone. But if it's done, it should be done as consistently and fairly as possible, with the general appearance that that is what is happening.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 16:38:32 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: I thought I should vote too
Message:
Dear Jim,
Disingenously...how did I do, no cheating, promise, now I'll look. Good!
Anyway, I will give long and serious thought to your new proposal, it certainly has possibilities. Thanks for breaking the fast! Now get back on the wagon!
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 13:15:47 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Silence of the Ass
Message:
Rick,
Okay, admittedly that analogy wasn't the best. (Though Scott's point on another justice system was a lot better!!) This site is not a club or a government. Let's look at it another way.

This site is designed to give ex or questioning premies a chance to air their doubts and feelings. It is supposed to help some people who may be having real serious problems a place to talk and to get some support, as well as just be a place to have a little fun from time to time. I don't have any problems with questioning people seeing the premie point of view at all. I do have a problem with anyone making fun of them.

How can some people get on here and ask questions or express doubts when every time they do they get threatened or flamed or ridiculed? For those of us who have thicker skins and are sure of our beliefs, it is not a problem and we can choose to ignore those posts that we just find to be a nuisance. For someone trying to break free, it could really be very hard to deal with. I object to Petrou on the basis of this reason as well.

Yeah, you and Jim flame premies from time to time. Once when I thought I couldn't deal with the content of some of Jim's posts anymore, I talked to him about it. We had a really good conversation, too. He disagreed with some things and not with others, but at least he answered me. He didn't flame me or make fun of me or get threatened by me. I think he was less agressive with some of the posts after that, too. (That is to his credit, not mine!) I have addressed Petrou several times in the same way and he has made fun of me or he doesn't answer. Not that i care, but it shows that he isn't interested in any kind of meaningful dialogue on this forum.

I am for free speech; however, with free speech comes some responsibility and Petrou really abused it in my opinion. VP
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 13:53:02 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Silence of the Ass
Message:
I meant to say that we 'talked' on the forum. I have never spoken to Jim in person. Just to clarify this. VP
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:06:26 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Heckle and Jeckle
Message:
I agree with you that Petrou's unbearable but I'm concerned about the 'slippery slope' that could lead to blocking dissenting opinion. No one has to read Petrou and Vacant's posts, or respond to them. Their attempts to harrass are only as good as our weakness to read their posts.

I also think we should be prudent with power, as it is essentially an abuse of power that we are protesting on this site. Brian's hard work is an extenuating circumstance and I don't think he should have to make extra effort for Petrou and Vacant. The rule to limit a person's number of posts can be enforced by creating a limit for everyone and if someone noticeably goes over that limit they can be warned, and then blocked if they don't comply. Just a thought.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:19:21 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Heckle and Jeckle
Message:
I'd favour a compromise. If someone is being disruptive on the forum them limit them to just two or three posts per day for a while. ANything posted after three posts on any one day could be deleted. After a while this posting limit could be removed and only brought back again if things got out of hand again. I am not in favour of actually banning anyone unless they make specific threats to someone else on the forum.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:31:01 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Sir David
Subject: Heckle and Jeckle
Message:
Just so everyone knows - there have been a couple of cases where EX-premies were disruptive on the forum. In the instances that I'm aware of, these people weren't blocked because negative opinion from other exes stopped them from making a nuisance of themselves. I just wanted to make the point that it is not the dissenting opinions that constitute harassment and/or misuse of the forum, it's the number and volume of repetitive posts. Exes can and have done this just as well as premies can.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 13:04:32 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Heckle and Jeckle
Message:
That's precisely why I would favour a limitation on posts rather than a ban. I don't actually read all the posts since I haven't the time and if I see a whole load of posts from a premie I might only read one or two. The same goes for an ex-premie. Does anyone here actually read all the posts?! There's some people who I'll always read and some I pass over. The endless Petrou and Vocal posts are not interesting to me. Gossip about Maharaji always is interesting and I seek out such posts. I think Petrou and Vocal should stay if only to add some amusement. But surely they must realise that there repeated posts are not going to be read after a while anyway. To help with maintaining an usable forum though, a limit of posts per day could be applied.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 14:22:01 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Sir David and all
Subject: Reading all the posts.
Message:
I do read (or at least scan) all the posts. I am a very fast reader so I can do this. I don't read all the posts carefully, but I do read them. Thus this repetitive posting of the same thing over and over really gets to me. For example, the other day, Petrou posted over 30 posts between 5:30 AM and 10 AM EST, and almost all the post said essentially the same thing. They were attached onto all kinds of threads all over the place - sometimes two or more in a short thread. I don't know if he thinks he is 'answering' people by doing this, or if he's increasing the probability that his posts will be read (not likely). I view this kind of behavior as 'spamming' - just like on Usenet. Vacol has been guilty of the same thing, IMHO, but to a lesser extent. I haven't counted the number of posts he made about 'accountability' last night, but there were quite a few, and they all again said essentially the same thing.

I certainly don't mind people posting a lot if they have something to say - for example JW posts a lot, but he doesn't repeat himself over and over, and he actually appears to be listening and responding to people. (I post a lot too, but I'll let y'all make the judgements on the content of the posts.)

Brian has to archive whenever the forum reaches a certain number of posts. If he doesn't do that the forum will lock itself. Then the archived posts have to be stored somewhere. If we get more and more people participating in the forum, then we may have to limit the number of everyone's posts per day (unless we can afford to pay Brian to quit his day job and maintain the site full time!)

Thanks for all your opinions, everyone, by the way.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 16:33:36 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Sum rules
Message:
David, et al:

Another argument against banning people permanently is that it leaves them (in their minds at least) with no face saving option. That tends to radicalize people. While I think that permanent bans ought be rare there are times when they make sense. In addition, I think two or three days may be insufficient in some instance. I like the idea of progressive sanctions, as with a car license. Conviction for 1 DUI will cause you to lose you license for 3 years, I think. Depends on the state. There ought to be some way to adjust the length of the ban to the nature and degree of the offense, as well as the number of offenses. Threats of violence result in a permanent ban. For being a 'public nuisance' how about a three day ban for the first offense. Second offense, on week. Third offense, a month. More than that and you need to start your own site. So the set of rules would be something like:

1. Set up some quorum rules. Jim's '5 and 5' seems ok to me, or some variant.
2. Expand current rules to include excessive posting and other attempts to subvert the site or become a nuisance (such as consistently and deliberately breaking html).
3. Expand the definition of 'threat' to include threats about job, finances, and personal reputation.
4. Designate a progressive system of sanctions. First offense 3 days. Second a week, etc.
5. Set up a hierarchy of offenses, from physical violence to being a pest.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:00:34 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Sum rules
Message:
Good ideas, Scott, but way to complicated for practical application. It might be just another nightmare for Brian.

If Brian is concerned enough, he can present his suggestion to some group of exes for approval, if it involves banning someone. If they agree, he just goes forward.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:01:22 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Scott T.
Subject: Sum rules
Message:
Dear Scott, most of those are good ideas, but talk about creating a bureaucracy! Someone has got to enforce all this stuff (decide whether an offense has be committed, bring it before a quorum, block and unblock sites, and so forth). To my mind, this could take away a lot of time from the primary purposes of the forum.

Also, you have brought up threats about 'jobs, finances, and personal reputation'. Do you mean threats to people who actually participate on the site? This could cover a lot of ground, including insults. Also, a lot of people on this site would like to see some changes made in Maharaji's 'job, finances, and personal reputation', so it might be be hard to enforce this rule consistently. This is part of the reason that the 'threats' ban in the present rules refers to physical threats only.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:22:29 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Sum rules
Message:
Katie:

Basically, I was just summarizing what I felt people have been saying. The problem I have with JWs suggestion of just having Brian present a proposal to the board is that there is some benefit to knowing what the rules are ahead of time. Makes the decision seem less arbitrary. Also, there is actually a wider range of sanctions, including posting limits, etc. Perhaps we could compromise with some general written guidelines governing the kinds of infractions, relative severity, etc., rather than specific rules governing all kinds of behavior. At least then people would know that it's not a free for all, and they'll be accountable for what they do. A paragraph or two somewhere on the intro to the Forum. Premies should also know that this is not a single standard system. Ex-es have the 'right of way.' You could say something like: 'This is not a 'live and let live' site. We shoot real rubber bullets.' (just kidding)

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:27:47 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Sum rules
Message:
I agree Scott. The first function of a Board should be to come to a consensus on criteria used to make decisions. I don't think they should be too detailed. It should be more of an agreement on the intent and priorities of the forum.

On the other hand, the quorum idea is even less structured, and more open to arbitrary decisions, in my opinion.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:33:02 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: A pleasant afternoon
Message:
I agree that there need to be some rules IF everyone wants them and if there are certain things that we don't want to put up with on this site. It would make things easier in the future. At least we have had one really calm and peaceful afternoon with intelligent points of view and not just arguments and flaming. This has been very nice, even if it is only temporary
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:51:00 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Sum rules
Message:
Yes, I also agree Scott (and thanks for the summary, by the way). It's too bad that this situation had to come up when there were no guidelines concerning it, but that's the way it goes. I dread to think of what someone will come up with next...

As far as the 'double standard', I think Brian put it very well when he said that exes had the right to post here, but premies had the privilege. That probably ought to go into the Forum introduction as well.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 12:39:15 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Heckle and Jeckle
Message:
Good morning everyone.

I'm the poster who wrote to the poet, 'Just shoot me now' because I really can't read that garbage anymore. I became downright depressed trying to give Petrou and Vacol an understanding ear. I vote to ban or limit them. Let them create their own site.

eb
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 14:15:50 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Brian
Subject: Heckle and Jeckle
Message:
Ban them, and let Jim get the holiday he needs. I have no time at all for earnest 'freedom of speech' discussions, since, as far as I can see, choosing not to keep another person's company or speak or listen to them denies them nothing - like many have pointed out, we wouldn't be preventing them their access to the net, or their own website.

For me, the biggest frustration with the regular premie posters is not when they start their own threads (which we can ignore), it is the way they will hi-jack and divert other people's threads so that people end up having fruitless discussions with them and the original discussion topic gets lost.

So - definitely - BAN THEM, and good riddance...
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 14:50:27 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Heckle and Jeckle
Message:
Okay, it's a little earlier here on the West Coast, and I'm about to eat lunch. I read this entire thread and here are my two cents.

Petrou is transparent in his stupid threat of legal action and is otherwise harmless to the conversation in my opinion. He is annoying, but he is the best example of programmed, rigid thinking that I have seen in a long time. I think it's illustritive to people of a lot of premies, especially to non-premies, or aspirants who read the postings and visit the forum. And to me, he's a good reminder of why I left the cult, which is always a nice thing to see. If he is just posting numerous posts with no additional content, I would suggest he be warned that that kind of posting is not allowed. But if he has something to add to the discussion, he should be allowed to do so. I agree, though, there hasn't been much. I recommend people just skip his posts. I volunteer to read them and let everyone know if he says anything with actual content.

Vacol/Vayu is tiresome and frustrating because I don't think he knows what he thinks at any particular moment. But, I must say, he often walks right into his own dung. He asks questions about M which lets a lot of good info get posted (again) for all to see. I think there might be an advantage to that. True, he isn't very coherent, but I don't think he should be banned either. I don't believe his professions of openness, or that he is just trying to get information he needs. He might believe that, but I think he's just trying to cover for his lord. Fortunately, he is doing just the opposite and doesn't even know it. I say let him post.

I think that limiting access by premies, unless there is a serious problem, should be avoided. I think it would tarnish the reputation of the forum. We can ignore posts from people who we don't want to hear from. I vote for free speech. I was offended when I couldn't post on premie.com at one point when it was found out I was an ex, and when I did the content was censored. Censorship and limiting discussion is what a cult does, and I don't think it's what we should do. I know it makes things more messy, but that's what free speech is all about.

And I agree that ex-premies need support. I would suggest that when people feel that way, they start a thread discussing whatever issues they want regarding incorporating the whole cult experience into their lives, sorting out the feelings, etc. I am very interested in that too. If Petrou, Vacol or some premie disrupts that kind of thread, I think the exs can ignore it quite well.

Frankly, much as I love the guy, I think part the adversarial nature of some of the posting was really Jim's doing. There is nothing wrong with it; it's just his nature. He's smart, articulate and has a low tolerance for bullshit. I know I can get adversarial myself, but usually that's when I feel someone has attacked my motives or sincerity. And I think we should all feel free to defend ourselves when that happens. Jim sounds like he needs a vacation, and maybe he is taking one.

Brian, I'm unclear if you are having problems with the site because of the way these people are posting. Is that true? If so, can you elaborate? What 'trouble' are they causing you?
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 15:35:59 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Exs are all different!
Message:
Everyone,
This thread has proven that the people who come onto this forum and lump us all together as if we are of 'one mind' are nuts!
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:41:28 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Other forums do it
Message:
JW,
I know that cults resrict free thinking and speech, but so do other forums and chat rooms on the net (this according to friends who go to other net discussion groups.) Other groups will kick you out for good if you flame or spam or threaten and they will report you to your service provider, as well. I think we have been more lenient than other such groups so far. I don't think we will necessarily be percieved as a cult for keeping out undesirables. We will be percieved as just another forum with rules. What does everyone think about this? VP
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Date: Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 09:21:36 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: VP
Subject: Other forums do it
Message:
Dear VP,
I'd be interested in knowing more about rules on other forums, not to copy them but just for comparison. I know Jade's (my daughter) boyfriend is involved in chat rooms and I'll see him this Fri. I'll ask about it but it would be better if it was an adult involved in the administration of a chat room.
Robyn
I know you know who Jade is but others don't.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:10:19 (EST)
From: Paul not Paula
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Heckle and Jeckle
Message:
Why put up with the abuse. Let them seek open dialogue in the premie world.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 19:57:52 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: weird glitch
Message:
I don't know whether it is just my machine, but every time I click on Still Crazy's post (below), I get thrown out of the forum, and right off the WWW. It has happened three times so far, and if were Petrou I'd be getting pretty paranoid by now...
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 20:06:52 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: weird glitch
Message:
Hmm, I just clicked on it and it worked OK for me.

But I'll repost it here:

I am new here, so I don't feel like I have much say in how the group
should be run.

I would like to say, though, that Vacol/Vayu gives me an opportunity
to raise points and share experiences. He's a good springboard for me.

As for Petrou, I have never met such a nasty premi in my life. I think
it's good advertisement to the world to let him spew his bile here.

Just my $0.02, really, and, like I said, I don't feel like I deserve a
vote yet.

-Still
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Date: Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 09:30:15 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Still Crazy
Subject: weird glitch
Message:
Dear Still,
Nobody is voting here, now anyway. We are just throwing our thoughts around and yours are just as valuable as other ex's. Thanks.
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 13:29:23 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: weird glitch--same here
Message:
Nigel:

I had the same wierd glitch. Here is the error printout:

IEXPLORE caused an invalid page fault in
module KERNEL32.DLL at 0137:bff7981f.
Registers:
EAX=1ef82ffc CS=0137 EIP=bff7981f EFLGS=00010216
EBX=0001b390 SS=013f ESP=006378ac EBP=006378ec
ECX=00451f42 DS=013f ESI=00451f2a FS=18bf
EDX=00511000 ES=013f EDI=00471e2d GS=18ae
Bytes at CS:EIP:
c7 00 00 00 00 00 e8 33 b3 ff ff 85 c0 74 35 a1
Stack dump:
00410000 00000001 1ef82ffc 00471e2d 00451f2a 0001b390 0041004c 00410000 00451f28 00f793f0 006378b8 006376d8 0063f6cc bffb887c bffb8b40 ffffffff

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 14:48:38 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Scott T.
Subject: weird glitch - try it now
Message:
I changed the dollar sign in the text to now be the HTML sequence for a dollar sign. I'll have to trap for Netscape not encoding it when it sends the TEXTAREA contents. Sheeesh... Till then, tread lightly :)
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Date: Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 18:54:22 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: weird glitch - try it now
Message:
Sorry, Brian.

I am indeed using Netscape.

I'll try to remember not to use the dollar-sign character.

Sorry.

-Still
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Date: Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 19:01:24 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: weird glitch - try it now
Message:
Hi Still - It's a problem with Internet Explorer READING the dollar sign in Netscape, believe it or not. So only people that use IE had a problem with your post. Something about the encoding. I had no problem reading your post because I use Netscape (because I don't want Bill Gates to take over the world).
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 18:44:27 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Heckle and Jeckle
Message:
I am new here, so I don't feel like I have much say in how the group should be run.

I would like to say, though, that Vacol/Vayu gives me an opportunity to raise points and share experiences. He's a good springboard for me.

As for Petrou, I have never met such a nasty premi in my life. I think it's good advertisement to the world to let him spew his bile here.

Just my $0.02, really, and, like I said, I don't feel like I deserve a vote yet.

-Still
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 20:15:01 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Theyz history boy!
Message:
Look. It's simple. Anarchy rules! This is the Wild Frontier. These buffoons barge in an' bust the place up an' get up some good peoples noses. Brian jerst happens to be one of them thar' people, he's the Sheriff 'round here too so he draws his .44 (Hmm..unfortunate analogy coming up) blows them clean away. Bam! Bam! Two cyber-bullets find their mark. Mssrs Vacant and Putrid don't come back to bother us no more! Nivver agin'.. nohow.
Don't trouble yourselves nomore about it. Theyz pushin' up daizies. This is the Internet where there is no Law. Get back to the cyber-saloon and make sure you don't rile sheriff Brian any.
Live by the sword and die by the sword!

oo I can hear those lawyers getting all excited already
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 22:21:00 (EST)
From: Paula not Paul
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Heckle and Jeckle
Message:
Hi Brian. I think that Vacol and Petrou abbused on this forum, because they did not have much respect about you and people here. But once there is predeterminated rules, I doubt if Petrou would spend his time to say silly things, or if Vacol would go on posting poems about existance.

I was thinking about your words, and, if you simply cut them out, I think it would not be fair, because they did not know the rules, because these rules are not made yet. Maybe all this thread made them think better about posting here.

At the same time, if you limit the quantity of their posts would not be a good idea too, because a person can bother a lot with only one post. If the problem is only disk space, it would be solved (limiting the quantity of posts), but I think that you mean the content of their posts.

Jim's idea is very good. But there would be a big discussion about 'who we are going to ban' all the time. To prevent these situations (which could take a lot of time) people could make previous rules that, once broken, the person is banned for a week or a month. This way, the 'freedom speech' could be protected, and the forum would have order.

At the same time, I would not miss any premie as Mili or Petrou... but I have to confess that Vacol, when he is not on his egotrip, brings interesting discussions, in my opinion. Of course I am minority here.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 06:49:12 (EST)
From: Vayu
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Accountability
Message:
Much has been said since I first began reading posts here about how Maharaji should be held accountable for his actions.
I agree.....that the reasonable questions in this regard need to be asked.
The same principle applies to all reasonable questions asked of ex-premies ; every ex-premie should be held accountable for the claims made against Maharaji.
And ex-premies are not likely to put themselves under any pressure to be accountable....so I or another premie need to play that role.
Despite appearances I am trying to walk a middle road.
Understand if I was participating in a pro-premie forum I would be also making waves.
I have been reminded about my promise to ask probing questions to E.V or whoever in the M camp...and I am doing that .
I have already spoken to two E.V representatives , but am trying to go higher up the chain....seeking answers .....btw...to some of the questions raised by JW....in his ten commandments.
But in the mean time I shall be asking some hard questions of the ex's......for some of your allegations about M are very serious .
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 09:10:41 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Vayu
Subject: Vayu
Message:
Vayu,
Now where did the yu come from, honey? No need to answer really. I'm glad your still here. I wonder if you've seen some of my posts to you, written just when you 'left'. I don't understand what happened really. You said you were leaving and then you came back as Vayu. Whatever. I just felt sorry that you weren't going to see and respond to some of the things I wrote to you. I have a simple question to you now. Are you a middle child? I am and I studied birth order in how it effects the child's personality. I am a middle child and see some of those traits in you. The middle of the road the stirring up of others emotions and then the backing away and watching it all unfold. Just curious. As I said before I see your flip flopping as questioning within yourself and see that as a good thing.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 10:00:43 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Vayu
Subject: Accountability
Message:
Vayu,

I think you can still read, even if you can't post. If you are making an honest, sincere effort to get answers from M then good for you. I hope that you are able to accept the answers even if they aren't what you expect them to be.

No ex-premie here has claimed to be the Perfect Master or God and therefore I don't think that they are accountable for the same kinds of things that Maharaji is. It's the truth. Really think about it. As for misinformation, we are dealing with a cult. The guy's not in the phone book, you can't call him up for a chat about these issues. He doesn't do interviews.

People on this forum have made the fact that some stories aren't complete very clear. Look at the various accounts of the mahatma with the hammer incident. Everyone knows that misinformation abounds surrounding M. Guess whose fault that is? Who's refusing comment? Keeping secrets? Doesn't that TELL you something? Good luck in your quest. I'm kind of sorry that you got blocked, after reading your post here, but maybe it will give you some time to work on those answers. VP
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 05:06:10 (EST)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: bb's great FAUX PAS
Message:
Here it is Mickey and others,the text of the bizarre thinly veiled death threat made by some loon called bb on SAT.April 1998:
'We don't have to think of any of them when we die'.
( Is his perhaps a hint of bb's possible suicide??)
'If you think this forum is going to become some live and let live chat fest,it wont,we have a serious grudge here and work to do.The tyrant is in the crosshairs and we arent shooting blanks'
The closest meaning we can give to crosshairs in this obviously demented person's statement is in fact crossfire.
Serious grudge?? Crossfire?? We aren't shooting blanks??
Bring down the tyrant?? Don't believe in live and let live??
bb has serious problems and the Ex-filers are trying very hard to pretend that cases like him are not dangerous and in fact mean well!Sheesh to you Mickey the Pharisee:read it and weep.You all better watch your tongues after this.In fact I think I've already noticed a reluctance to use such deliberate threats lately for some odd reason.Wonder why????????
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 14:12:18 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Petrou
Subject: bb's great FAUX PAS
Message:
Petrou, the more you mention this, the deeper hole you dig yourself into. If you think what you quoted is a death threat, you are even more ignorant that I previously thought. So, have you reported it? What did they tell you? Are Big M's staff of hotshot lawyers drawing up legal papers as we speak? Can't wait.

By the way, let me tell you a story about death threats. One time a premie in a community I lived in apparently wrote a letter to the Big M and DID threaten, or appeared to threaten, Big M. Anyway, at a program shortly after that, I had the service, given to me by the security bigwigs, of watching the darshan line until this guy came along, and getting in front of him, wearing a green carnation in my lapel, which was to alert the security people around Big M. As we approached the 'tunnel of love' (remember THAT term?) some honchos pulled the guy out of line and escorted him off to some room and interrogated him. Eventually, they decided the guy was harmless, really wasn't threatening Big M, and they let him go through darshan, again, with ME in front of him wearing the carnation to make sure the security people were on alert. I saw that Big M noticed the carnation and knew what it meant. He looked a little uncomfortable. The premie kissed M's feet and moved on. That was the only time I went through darshan twice in the same day. Can't say either one was much of an event.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 17:14:34 (EST)
From: Veep
Email: None
To: Petrou
Subject: To bb
Message:
bb,
I certainly didn't take this comment as a death threat. Please don't think about this another second. VP
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 18:28:03 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Petrou
Subject: bb's great FAUX PAS
Message:
Well, Petrou, I have read this, and, I'm sure you will not be surprised, I do not see it as a threat. I can understand why you do, since metaphor is lost on you entirely.
Just as you are unable to read scripture and consider the historical, textual, and cultural context, you are unable to read a simple post in context. My reading of bb's post for almost a year tell me that he is not violent and certainly would not threaten M with any physical harm, let alone murder. Plus, the reference to suicide is so off base.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 05:40:55 (EST)
From: Mr Ex
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: M's Suicide/Murder metaphors!
Message:
Don't you remember that old one?
When Mr Rawat, Mahatmas and premies used to quote that one:
If you're a real devotee, and Maharaji tells you to jump
off the cliff, you should immediately do it!
Haven't you heard that one hundreds of times?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 11:16:38 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: Mr Ex
Subject: M's Suicide/Murder metaphors!
Message:
The only story I ever heard along these lines was that M was standing on the balcony of a high building in LA with a 'close devotee.'

M turned to the devotee and asked with a giggle, ``Do you believe in reincarnation?''

The devotee said, ``Yes.''

So M said, ``Then, jump.''

I think that was the end of the story. I didn't necessarily believe it (although it sounded like something M would do, and he was beginning to hassle people about belief in reincarnation at that time). It certainly gave me something to wrestle with.

I think there's a story in 'Autobiography of a Yogi' by Paramhans Yoganand about a guru that tells a devotee to jump off a cliff. The guy jumps, dies, the devotees haul his mangled body back up, and the guru brings him back to life.

These are the kinds of stories that make me think, if you're going to practice Bhakti Yoga (the path of devotion) it's a lot better to be devoted to a dead master (like Krishna or Jesus) than a live one.

-Still
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Date: Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 12:22:53 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: M's Suicide/Murder metaphors!
Message:
Dear Still, I laughed out loud when I read your post (my co-workers must think I'm reading jokes). Good point, though. One just never knows what the living master will ask.

Dear Mr. Ex, I, too, heard that we must be willing to lay down our lives for Maharaji. The willingness to die for my savior was instilled in me from the time I was quite young. I was also taught to accept persecution, the more the better. This life is a test.

When I was 4, I used to fantasize that I was on the cross right there alongside Jesus. My fantasies shifted after I saw a portrait of a man being drawn and quartered; now there was some sacrifice! Of course, in these daydreams, I would rise from the dead to demonstrate the power of God and my total commitment.

Wierdness manifested quite young in me.

Chuckle, chuckle.
eb
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Date: Fri, Apr 24, 1998 at 11:51:22 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: M's Suicide/Murder metaphors!
Message:
I just remembered another incident concerning M and suicide.

My younger brother (also a premi) and I were sitting around the living room at my Mom's one day. She came in with a very worried look on her face.

``Would you guys commit suicide if Guru Maharaj Ji asked you to?''

This question came out of the blue, as far as I was concerned (I hate reading newspapers). I knitted my brows and got a thoughtful expression on my face, genuinely trying to figure out whether I would or not.

Luckily, my brother (who does read newspapers) jumped in and said, ``Oh, Mom, he would never ask us to do anything like that.''

She looked relieved and left the room. Then my brother told me about the Jonestown Kool-Aid Party that had occurred the previous night.

At the time, I also believed what my brother had said. In addition, I had heard back in the 'Who Is GMJ' days that, ``In this incarnation M has promised that he will never test premis by asking them to do harmful things.''

Now I wonder.

I wonder if M might ask a premi to kill himself just to test to see if he had the power over him to make him do it.

It seems like this kind of thing is one of the big dangers about putting complete trust in someone you don't even really know, and who fairly demonstrably does not have your best interests at heart.

-Still
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Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 23:30:11 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Dilemma- a premie love song
Message:
I read a post Mickey wrote about premies reading M into pop songs. When I heard this on the radio today, I thought of the terrible dilemma that some premies must be in. Someone give me a slow melancholy groove...

(With apologies to Paul, George, John, and Ringo)

I don't like you, but I love you
seems that I'm always thinking of you
Oh Oh Oh
You did me wrong now
My love is strong now
You've really got a hold on me

I don't want you, but I need you
Don't want to kiss you, but I need to
Oh Oh Oh
You treat me badly
I love you madly
You've really got a hold on me
You've really got a hold on me
You've really got a hold on me
You've really got a hold on me
I love you
and all I want you to do
is just
Hold me Hold me Hold me Hold me

I don't want to leave, don't want to stay here
Don't want to spend another day here
Oh Oh Oh
I've got to split now,
I just can't quit now
You've really got a hold on me
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 01:12:58 (EST)
From: Petrou
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: SEE HOW THEY RUN!
Message:
Just been reading the messages below and I must say I have never seen so many people trying to change the subject at once.You can almost hear the scurrying feet of worried Ex-filers as they desperately try to make up for the growing fiasco they have now created.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 01:25:27 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Petrou
Subject: Are you OK
Message:
I must say I have never seen so many people trying to change the subject at once.You can almost hear the scurrying feet of worried Ex-filers as they desperately try to make up for the growing fiasco they have now created.

Do you have a brain tumor or something? Getting enough oxygen? Eaten any strange fungi? Or is this just what's left after the indoctrination?
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 07:15:42 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Petrou
Subject: What growing fiasco
Message:
What are you on about dear boy?
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 08:30:03 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: VP
Subject: Dilemma- a premie love song
Message:
Dear VP,
Good morning! That song is excellent. It should have a permenant home on the site. I feel that way and know it may not be good. I tried to respond to email to you, VP and a few others from the forum but my computer was needed for work! What a shock!!! It is their computer though so I guess.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 09:22:04 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Dilemma- a premie love song
Message:
Robyn,
I think that the song was originally recorded by someone else (the Miracles?) The version that I heard yesterday was by the Beatles, though. Hope they get the computer problem fixed soon. VP
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Date: Fri, Apr 24, 1998 at 17:01:13 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: VP
Subject: Dilemma- a premie love song
Message:
Smoky Robinson wrote it, VP, but I only heard the Beatles version. Seeing the words here brought back vivid and ancient memories of our family's very first record player and our very first LP, 'With The Beatles'. Christmas 1963, I think. Thanks for that.
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Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 21:59:53 (EST)
From: Vayu/Vacol
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: a break
Message:
To all;
I am going to take a break for a few ours...so please keep questions or other messages for me until later.
Toodle a pip!
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Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 22:02:24 (EST)
From: Vayu
Email: None
To: All
Subject: a break
Message:
'hours' it should have read!
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Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 22:30:55 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Vayu/Vacol
Subject: a break
Message:
It'll be hard, but we'll try to keep questions to a minimum.
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Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 21:49:07 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Everyone
Subject: To Steve & anyone else
Message:
Thanks for your response to my response, Steve A. You say that you do believe there is such a thing as an enlightened soul. Could you name one? You know perhaps it's down to word association or semantics here but I'm assuming you mean by enlightened soul, the Hindu version of enlightenment, i.e. the mind supposedly merged into light and all that.

While I agree that it's possible to have deep experiences from meditation, I wouldn't call it merging with God, myself. Also I think it's impossible to remain in such a meditative state all the time. Meditation can become a habit and one can have an experience when not formally meditating (often better than the formal meditation!) but constant deep meditation (samadi) is, I think, a myth. But I am willing to be proven wrong.

Regarding what you were saying about loving all people like God does. I can see that I have a different perspective on this. I don't understand or feel the need to understand anything about 'losing my ego'. Again I genuinely believe that this is another Hindu myth. It seems to have nothing to do with my experience at all. I think dividing the self up into compartments like ego and soul is an unhealthy thing. It never helped me and only served to make me tense up and lose any experience.

The ability to love seems inherent in all of us. It's what feels natural and great. That's it! Remember the old hippy days? Neil Young, 'Everybody I love you, everybody I do'. No effort because that's the best feeling. No need to worry about anything because that feeling seems to grow. And don't ask me why! But I'd say it is because, love is what we are. Why else do we want to have relationships? Because to love and be loved is the best feeling there is. And I think it's the reason why we sit here on this planet going around the sun.

And yet love is the driving force behind our lives. This is true for most people. Since leaving the confines of Maharaji I've regained the ability to love the people in my life. I'm not afraid to do this now I've realised that it is a most practical and responsible thing too. And God is here too. Sometimes love can hurt and yet that is the beauty of it, because despite the pain, you know it's worth it. Worth every ounce of it. So what if you can get hurt sometimes? Love is indestructable and will always live another day. Ask any caring mother.

And I pray to God to help me. He is always there and whether we meditate or not, He will help us. I'm no great soul, no enlightened one, just an ordinary guy. What God is, I have found, is love. Nothing less than that. No judgement, no rules and definitely no dogma. He loves me and I ask for His help. He, the opener of hearts and minds, the one we can always turn to and talk to. I have found great pleasure in knowing that there are some here on this forum who can understand this, who have the same experience. Someone here asked me yesterday to elaborate on what I meant when I said that I found that the ultimate truth was love. Well I hope this post goes some way to explaining what I meant.

Not a weak thing, not something airy fairy or wishy washy. The strongest thing in any man or woman is the love they have known. That's one thing we DO take with us when we die. Dear Paul (you know which one) summed it up very well when he spoke about Linda and said that the world was a better place for her having been here. That's love.
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Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 22:45:58 (EST)
From: Steve A
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: To Steve & anyone else
Message:
Dear David

This worlds true wealth is people and particularly people like you. Your words and the depth of your feelings are very uplifting. Enlightenment, God realized, Liberated are not terms of finality, we do not reach a point when we say thats it, we have loved enough, we have evolved enough and God comes along and says 'well done child here's eternal bliss'.

I view my ego as not part of my true self but something that I have constructed that I use for protection a type of defense mechanism. In this ego I have constructed I harbour my fears, anger, prejudice and the image that I wanted everybody to believe was me. But when you start to feel that true love that just wants to express itself to all humanity, you don't need that ego protection any more. All of a sudden you realize that the fears, the anger, the prejudice just falls away and you find the real you was better than you could have possibley imagined.

Enlightened souls, I could name many Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, St Francis etc. The true definition is a soul that is freed whilst still living ie. not subject to the laws that bind them to the earth or the pains and sorrows that we all choose to live with. On a personal note only one person I have met ever filled me with the feeling that they truly know God and that is Sri Daya Mata. I do not wish to push any Hindu defintions but Patanjili describes the process well in his description of the '8 fold Path'. A good book to read on the subject of saints and enlightenment is Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramahansa Yogananda. But David it sounds to me that you don't need any help, for what more is there than true love, just nuture it and let it grow and be around people who feel as you do and help bring that feeling out.

My best wishes and kind regards Steve
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 01:47:05 (EST)
From: Vayu
Email: None
To: Steve A and Sir David
Subject: To Steve & anyone else
Message:
Just to say ,regardless of how my views may differ from either of you , it was nice to read both of your posts that emanated good will and sensitivity.
Vayu.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 08:43:25 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Sir David
Subject: To Steve & anyone else
Message:
Dear David,
That was a true and beautiful post. I say I think of god as an 'energy'. I do relate to god as an 'energy' but this explination of mine has disregarded love but that IS the bottom line if we wish to become the most/best we can. Thanks for a beautiful start to my day!
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Apr 21, 1998 at 19:34:09 (EST)
From: Toffee
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Mind
Message:

The following is an excerpt taken from the book 'Who is Guru Maharaji?'...

Question: 'Does evil come from our mind?'

Maharaji's answer: 'Right! Exactly. Do you know, the devil is the son of man that comes to mind, through mind, from mind.'
Question: 'Then it is not real?'

Maharaji's answer: 'Not at all. The thing which is real is so glorious, it cannot be explained. After all it is real, that is why it cannot be explained.'

Of course today Maharaji wouldn't use this choice of words to explain the heart and mind, but the mind f--k would be the same.
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 01:51:23 (EST)
From: Vayu
Email: None
To: Toffee
Subject: Mind
Message:
I totally agree with M's quote as with most quotes that are posted on this forum!
But not with the interpretations that are placed on 'them' by ex-premies....almost without exception!
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Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 15:05:38 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Toffee
Subject: Mind
Message:
The evil mind. How I spent years fighting against something that was a made-up devil. I had forgotten how explicitly he equated one's own mind with the devil. What a destructive piece of crap that was. Thank you for posting that quote.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 23, 1998 at 11:25:43 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Toffee
Subject: Mind
Message:
You're right about these little quotes. Current premies like to forget that they were ever spokken, as would MJ. But all overlook that his current words express ideas rooted in the ideas that spawned the WIGM quotes.

As for Toffee being sweet and sticky, yes - very sweet. And far too sticky. One small taste lasts a long time and can be savored for that time. But what to do when finally left holding the empty wrapper? Wander off in search of more? Hard to find in this big old candy store anymore... It's pretty rare...
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