Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 40

From: Feb 26, 1999

To: Mar 8, 1999

Page: 4 Of: 5



Popeye -:- What state of mind.. -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 17:11:27 (EST)
__cp -:- What state of mind? First... -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 18:29:55 (EST)
____Helen -:- What state of mind? First... -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 18:51:23 (EST)
______cp -:- What state of mind? First... -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 19:25:45 (EST)
______nigel -:- ditto (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 20:15:53 (EST)
__Miloochie -:- What state of mind.. -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 18:36:23 (EST)

nigel -:- sins of omission -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 16:19:10 (EST)
__Selene -:- sins of omission -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 16:38:01 (EST)
____Helen -:- sins of omission -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 16:51:42 (EST)
______Happy -:- sins of omission -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 08:16:23 (EST)
________Garth -:- sins of omission -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 09:31:22 (EST)
__Brian -:- Thanks, Nigel -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 09:25:33 (EST)
____nigel -:- Thanks, everyone. -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 12:45:41 (EST)
______Mike -:- Better late than never...:-) -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 18:16:41 (EST)
__TD -:- sins of omission -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 20:07:06 (EST)
__bill -:- Post again as you can Nigel-nt -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 00:28:35 (EST)

Garth -:- Gender Bias? -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 15:52:47 (EST)
__Helen -:- Gender Bias? -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 16:47:11 (EST)
____Selene -:- Gender Bias? -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 17:02:20 (EST)
______Helen -:- Gender Bias? -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 18:46:49 (EST)
________JW -:- Gender Bias? -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 02:48:40 (EST)
__________chr -:- Gender Bias? -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 03:55:47 (EST)
__________Diz -:- Gender Bias? -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 05:24:25 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Gender Bias? -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 08:43:32 (EST)
______Helen -:- Gender Bias? -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 11:15:13 (EST)
________Garth -:- Gender Bias? -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 11:31:49 (EST)
__________Helen -:- Gender Bias? -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 11:56:28 (EST)
____________Robyn -:- Gender Bias? -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 12:27:50 (EST)
____________Garth -:- Gender Bias? -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 12:43:26 (EST)
______________Helen -:- Gender Bias? -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 14:41:23 (EST)
________________Garth -:- Gender Bias? -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 15:35:52 (EST)
__________________Helen -:- Seriously now -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 17:02:53 (EST)
____________________Garth -:- Ritual -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 09:47:36 (EST)
______________________Helen -:- Ritual -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:42:15 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- EXCELLENT MOVIE -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 12:59:33 (EST)

Jim -:- Op's Divine Mr. M (retread) -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 09:42:37 (EST)
__Jim -:- Op's regular guy, M (retread) -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 11:08:08 (EST)
____bill--Help OP with her -:- miracle list . -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 00:15:19 (EST)
______chr -:- miracle list . -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 04:19:32 (EST)
________JW -:- More Miracles -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 13:21:04 (EST)

AE -:- Waking up from the dream -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 06:28:12 (EST)
__Denise -:- Waking up takes time -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 10:06:51 (EST)
____Rick -:- Waking up takes time -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 10:57:48 (EST)
______Denise -:- Waking up takes time -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 14:06:37 (EST)
________gerry -:- Waking up takes time -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 14:21:01 (EST)
________Rick -:- Waking up takes time -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 14:51:13 (EST)
__________Denise -:- Jagdeo -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 14:11:01 (EST)
____________gerry -:- Jagdeo -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 17:38:57 (EST)
____________g's mom -:- relief on G's moms part.. -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:41:29 (EST)
____Selene -:- Waking up takes time -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 11:53:06 (EST)
______Denise -:- Madonna & Gurus -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 14:15:36 (EST)
________Selene -:- Madonna & Gurus -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 14:28:12 (EST)
__________Happy -:- Madonna, scientology, sanskrit -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 06:17:54 (EST)
____Sir David -:- To BEragon or not to BEragon -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 11:54:56 (EST)
____Katie -:- Waking up takes time/Denise -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 09:14:51 (EST)
____SHP -:- Ask 10 people, get 10 opinions -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 19:14:59 (EST)
______SHP -:- Denise: the 'ask 10's' for you -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 21:19:24 (EST)
__Orlando -:- Why -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 10:22:17 (EST)
____AE -:- Why -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 14:32:46 (EST)
______Garth -:- Why -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 15:24:44 (EST)
________gerry -:- Oh horsecock! -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 16:53:01 (EST)
________AE -:- Why -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 20:00:04 (EST)
__________gerry -:- Why -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 20:32:02 (EST)
__________Orlando -:- Why -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 09:29:07 (EST)
________Happy -:- Why -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 06:23:03 (EST)

hamzen -:- new-age anaesthetics -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 20:23:02 (EST)
__Helen -:- new-age anaesthetics -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 22:13:10 (EST)

Rick -:- Why Questions Are Bad -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 19:57:24 (EST)
__Jim -:- That's it -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 20:21:01 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Why Questions Are Bad -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 09:56:42 (EST)
____Rick -:- Why Questions Are Bad -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 11:06:07 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Why Questions Are Bad -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 12:01:18 (EST)
________Rick -:- Gotcha(nt) -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 16:35:58 (EST)
______Miloochie -:- The 'right' way -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 13:11:51 (EST)
________God -:- Divine harmony mystery solved -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 14:09:15 (EST)
__________Miloochie -:- Divine harmony mystery solved -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 15:19:34 (EST)

Jim -:- Where'd you go, Mel? (repost) -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 19:17:43 (EST)
__Mel Bourne -:- Where'd you go, Mel? (repost) -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 04:57:23 (EST)
____Jim -:- Honestly? -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 08:11:26 (EST)
______Curious George -:- Humour me -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 10:21:32 (EST)
________Marshall -:- Mango -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 18:20:40 (EST)
__________Mel Bourne -:- Mango -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 20:19:50 (EST)
__________Manjo -:- Mango -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 19:51:29 (EST)
________Mel Bourne -:- Humour me -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 20:12:20 (EST)
______Mel Bourne -:- Honestly? -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 20:07:58 (EST)
________Jim -:- Bullshit, Mel -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 21:54:50 (EST)
__________Mel Bourne -:- Bullshit, Mel -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 01:32:57 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Bullshit Mel - DENISE? -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 08:29:50 (EST)
______________Denise -:- Sorry Jim... -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 15:01:55 (EST)
________________Rick -:- But Denise -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 18:01:04 (EST)
__________________Denise -:- But Denise -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 22:40:35 (EST)
____________________Jim -:- Bull tickie, Denise -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 23:58:02 (EST)
______________________Denise -:- Bull tickie, Denise -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 21:38:42 (EST)
________________Jim -:- You can do better than that -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 21:27:48 (EST)
__________________g's mom -:- great post -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:06:39 (EST)
________________Mel Bourne -:- Sorry Jim... -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 05:20:02 (EST)
__________________Jim -:- You're right, Mel -:- Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:06:08 (EST)

Denise -:- Not that it matters, but -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 18:22:47 (EST)
__Jim -:- You'll have to ask him -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 18:30:38 (EST)
____Denise -:- What? (nt) -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 19:40:37 (EST)
______Sir David -:- What? (nt) -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 20:05:19 (EST)
____Marlboro Man -:- Yes I remember ol Bob in '73' -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 00:07:56 (EST)
__Rick -:- Not that it matters, but -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 19:38:40 (EST)
____Denise -:- Closing Ashrams -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 19:45:42 (EST)
______Rick -:- Closing Ashrams -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 20:00:25 (EST)
______Jim -:- Closing Ashrams -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 20:02:20 (EST)
________Perfect Premie -:- Closing Ashrams -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 20:32:17 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Closing minds -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 20:42:02 (EST)
__________Denise -:- Hole in the Bucket Story -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 20:52:28 (EST)
____________Diz -:- Hole in the Bucket Story -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 21:17:05 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Hole in the Bucket Story -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 21:28:34 (EST)
______________Jean-Michel -:- Core of abuse system -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 04:18:36 (EST)
________________Zac -:- EV torture -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 07:50:01 (EST)
________________Denise -:- Seminars -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 09:24:45 (EST)
__________________Jean-Michel -:- Seminars -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 10:31:18 (EST)
____________________G's mom -:- Let me get this straight... -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 10:47:49 (EST)
______________________selene -:- Let me get this straight... -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 12:14:39 (EST)
______________________Jean-Michel -:- Yes dear! -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 12:44:37 (EST)
________________________Selene -:- Yes dear! -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 12:49:55 (EST)
__________________________Jean-Michel -:- Yes dear! -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 12:55:17 (EST)
____________________________Sir David -:- He's a bloody idiot -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 13:18:24 (EST)
______________________________Jean-Michel -:- He's a bloody idiot -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 13:30:30 (EST)
________________________________ham -:- Absolutely hilarious -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 18:53:53 (EST)
__________________________Jean-Michel -:- No you haven't -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 13:24:35 (EST)
__________________________Zac -:- At least he's admitted there's -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 14:35:55 (EST)
________________________g's mom -:- this is just laughable -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 13:47:36 (EST)
__________________________Selene -:- this is just laughable yes! -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 13:50:47 (EST)
____________Sir David -:- Hole in the Bucket Story -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 21:29:13 (EST)
__________Mike -:- Say what? -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 19:12:22 (EST)
____________Sir Dave -:- Say what? -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 20:19:08 (EST)
______________Mike -:- Funny! -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 09:31:45 (EST)
__Nim -:- If it doesn't matter.... -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 23:15:49 (EST)
____g's mom -:- not fair to Denise... -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 02:16:21 (EST)
______Nim -:- not fair to Denise... -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 02:49:23 (EST)
__Marshall -:- The reason I heard -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 02:55:41 (EST)
____Jethro -:- The reason I heard -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 03:44:22 (EST)
____Rick -:- The reason I heard -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 10:36:06 (EST)
__Jean-Michel -:- What I remember -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 03:17:17 (EST)
__Gail -:- No baragons--Here's why. -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 02:03:50 (EST)

Student -:- Libman -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 14:47:36 (EST)
__A drop-out (Selene) -:- Libman -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 15:49:09 (EST)
__Jim -:- classic premie blindspot -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 16:01:55 (EST)
____Student -:- classic premie blindspot -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 17:24:11 (EST)
______Jim -:- classic premie blindspot -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 17:46:43 (EST)
________Stray Dawg -:- classic premie blindspot -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 19:40:45 (EST)
______bill -:- sex blindspot -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 21:58:41 (EST)
______Runamok -:- student's analogy -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 22:38:48 (EST)
__bill -:- student -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 21:46:03 (EST)
____Helen -:- student -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 22:03:42 (EST)
______Stray Dawg -:- student -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 07:57:54 (EST)

Brian -:- G's Mom's Journeys entry -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 11:56:55 (EST)
__Miloochie -:- G's Mom's Journeys entry -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 13:45:34 (EST)
____barney -:- G's Mom's Journeys entry -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 14:25:09 (EST)
______barney -:- one more thing, Maharaji -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 14:47:42 (EST)
________Selene -:- one more thing, Maharaji -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 16:00:26 (EST)
________Diz -:- where IS he now? -:- Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 20:58:26 (EST)
__________g's mom -:- thanks to all... -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 02:33:13 (EST)
____________KK -:- thanks to all... -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 06:26:35 (EST)
____________Gail -:- thanks to you ... -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 02:16:52 (EST)
______________g's mom -:- your question -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 10:49:17 (EST)
__________Jean-Michel -:- I saw him -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 03:22:59 (EST)
__bill -:- any ideas on what to do? -:- Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 23:39:04 (EST)
____The Equalizer -:- ideas on what to do? Yes(NT) -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 02:47:59 (EST)
______Happy -:- Jagdeo -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 09:34:02 (EST)
__Mike -:- To G's Mom -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 18:30:51 (EST)
____Helen -:- To G's Mom -:- Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 23:00:19 (EST)


Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 17:11:27 (EST)
From: Popeye
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What state of mind..
Message:
What are the necessary conditions that setup an individual to be ripe for bein takin in by M.?
Popeye
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 18:29:55 (EST)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Popeye
Subject: What state of mind? First...
Message:
.. you have to go to Alanon and practice hard at getting a co-dependant make up.

Then read alot about after death experiences and meditation techniques that have come down through the ages and roll all them all up and give M control over all possible experiences of same. vital her is that any of these that strike you as possible, need to be slotted under INDIAN or HINDU in order to be understood. In other words, to understand M you must be able to relate to his Indian- cum- westerner way of explaining things that emenates from the premis that you have no means of cognition or basis of understanding for yourself.

Then try to slow down any thiking to a stop.

Do not observe ANY behavior around you.

Cultivate a nice simpering grin.

Work on your denial mechanisms--learn to attibute all good to M an all thinking or emotional growth as mind.

Surpress your sexuality and be content with
M videos at night. But its ok to lurk at programs.

Remeber the golden rule is NO PROCESSING or observations.

Allow M full reign- he will maneuver you into checkmate and keep you there- then you dont have to worry about personal growth or integrity!
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 18:51:23 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: cp
Subject: What state of mind? First...
Message:
Great post, cp, you covered a lot of territory!

I would say you covered it all!!
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 19:25:45 (EST)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: What state of mind? First...
Message:
thanks. I amaze myself sometimes.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 20:15:53 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Helen
Subject: ditto (nt)
Message:
Well said indeed!
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 18:36:23 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Popeye
Subject: What state of mind..
Message:
You're breathing.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 16:19:10 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: sins of omission
Message:
Op said a few things in defence of M's principles, or lack thereof, that made my blood run cold. The thread is sinking fast, and I've spent a bit of time typing this, so I'm putting it up here - and also because it touches on the wider areas of M's morality, or lack thereof. (And this is probably my last post for a bit, so I'm feeling self-indulgent!)

People say, 'These are my principles, these are the principles I have to hang onto in my life, otherwise, I don't know what's going to happen to me.' I know exactly what's going to happen to you, you are going to be the boat that sunk in its place. Have you ever seen those? Those boats that people buy and never take out? And then all of a sudden, one day, some calamity happens and all you see is a little bow sticking out. And what is the human being reduced to? A piece of granite which says, RIP on it.

Truly a born philospher, op. As important to moral philosophy as his bardic witterings are to poetry.

Never mind what was or wasn't edited from M's satsang, op, the stuff that remains is contemptible. I don't think it is inappropriate to paraphrase Macaroni's message as: 'Never mind how important your principles are to you, they aren't going to help you when the time comes to die'. (I think this is op's take on it.)

But that is the more generous interpretation; the nastier interpretation - which M doesn't take the trouble to deny, even though many listening would surely read this meaning into it - is: 'You're going to die anyway, so who needs principles...?'

Both interpretations stink. The former because of it's unstated implication that K as method and M as facilitator somehow will help you when it's your turn to die, and the latter because of its shameless appeal to a premie's selfishness. (The former is lousy natural philosophy, the latter a corrupt moral philosophy.)

Take the moral issue first:

I wonder what Mr Guru Pants would have to say about people whose principles mean so much to them that they will knowingly risk, or sacrifice their lives in pursuit of them. Steve Biko, maybe? How about that Pastor Niemoller (sp?) in the Nazi death camp? Pick your own... Obviously these people took a wrong turn somewhere, if they believed their principles might be more important than their own experience of being alive. The funny thing is, the bleak fatalism and moral bankruptcy of M's message are things of which the atheists among us are always being accused of possessing (falsely), yet here is a spiritual leader (oops, sorry, Red, I mean 'Master') outchilling the lot of us.

Only five times in my life have I been ripped-off by people I knew personally, and I mean to the extent that I found the rip-off hurtful or financially damaging. In every case the perpetrator was a premie - even though I've lived more than three times as long as a non-premie than I did as a fuckwit. Maybe M never told premies to abandon their principles, but back then, as now, M's failure to address morality in the here and now is at least one glaring sin of omission, if not of commission. (The worst instance was when my brother got ill and I had to sell-on the very expensive trans-europe train ticket that would have taken me to Guru Puja. The grateful munchkin who was the beneficiary, said something about it being 'Grace', and promised to pay me back in full, when he could...). At least the mainstream religions, for all their faults and dogmatic dribble, still put a high premium on abiding by personal principles of some kind. For that much alone we should be grateful, I suppose. Maybe premies will tell you that morality isn't M's bailiwick. Fine, but it's about time the old toad learned to appreciate that there are inevitable moral consequences to his teachings - and at least state explicitly what sort of behaviour is unacceptable. I clearly remember M once saying that the only sin was to 'know the truth but then go away from it'. Thus the gurunoid who robbed me of goods to the value of two weeks wages wasn't actually sinning, so much as, er, behaving correctly by staying with the truth at my expense.

Oh yeah, then there's the 'natural' philosophy. What about this load of old codswallop:

Look around you. ... Nature is an incredible force. It has no principles. It flows with what is taking place. El Nino comes along, and the whole world's weather changes.

Wrong, Margie. Nature has principles, and they're best understood by science. 'It flows with what is taking place' is pure gobbledegook, but gobbledephrased in such a way Nature is made to sound like a fellow devotee 'going with the flow' of Grace, or something. Either that, or M's has a very idiosyncratic view of chaos theory.

Never mind. The point I want to make is how exactly is Knowledge supposed to help you when it's time to pop your clogs? Surely - without some sort of convincing explanation, you might say - with no less validity - that 'Never mind how many videos you watch today, they sure ain't going to help you when the time comes to die'.

The thing is, atheist or believer, this is the only life any of us knows anything about. None of us has ever died. More importantly, this is the only world that M knows anything about (and then not much...) yet all the while, M adopts this absurd privileged perpective that hints (always just hints) that on some level - whilst not being the Lord any more - he is still omniscient. Knows all about the soul's long transmigration through the various lifeforms and stuff (see JM's wonderful website for the glorious details). According to op, it would appear he is also omnipotent (M does miracles that would put Jesus to shame), while according to Red Heart he is also omnipresent (in that she is still somehow connected to her leader even when he is 50,000 miles away.)

Of course, none of us flinthearts is ever permitted to cite these beliefs to challenge M, since he never made any big claims on his own behalf, did he? (Hmm...) Either way, he has never once stated in public 'I am a mere mortal. I cannot do miracles' - even though he knows damn well that thousands of his followers still believe he could if he wanted. This, in my view, is probably the one thing I most despise him for.

Op, if there is one really damaging belief you hold about Maharaji, it is the idea that he can work miracles. I hope - for your sake - you can manage to shake it off. It is pure toxic thinking. (That line about not doing 'sideshow' tricks, BTW, is the oldest cop-out in the book. Uri Geller uses a similar line about not using his 'powers' to win a fortune in casinos, and to defend his refusal to accept Randi's million-dollar challenge to test his powers under proper observing conditions.) Think about it. Do you really believe M couldn't have worked some small miracle to spare Marolyn the trauma of nuerosurgery? In fact, he could have intervened before the tumour took hold. Nobody would have been any the wiser...

Again, this is the only life any of us knows about. We are social animals and morality is a social construct. Therefore our morality must be about how we interact with others. If we abandon or sideline our principles - however defined - through a misguided trust in Maharji's 'divine' overview, we are heading for big trouble, or damaged relationships, at the very least.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 16:38:01 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: sins of omission
Message:
YES!!! I am saving that one. Thanks for helping me understand why so many weird and bad things happened to me at the hands of such self procliamed spiritual beings.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 16:51:42 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene/Nigel
Subject: sins of omission
Message:
I agree--great post Nigel. I also think GM's message in that satsang was a kind of 'seize the day' message: Hey we're all gonna die some day so might as well be as blissed out as you can while you're here!! Can you believe that we bought into that whole idea that the purpose to life is to be blissed out? Some days I wish it was that simple
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 08:16:23 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: sins of omission
Message:
A very insightful post, which I also printed out. Hope you will soon find time to write again, nigel. I always enjoyed your posts.
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 09:31:22 (EST)
From: Garth
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: sins of omission
Message:
Insightful observations, Nigel; since the sixties and seventies were, as I recall, eras of great skepticism and questioning of our parents's values as well as the search for alternatives, the kind of nihilistic philosophy represented by M was very attractive to young people who didn't want to take responsibility for their actions, were hedonistic, and looked for someone with authority to not only validate their self-absorption, but valorize it as the next stage in human evolution. Your point about M's cold pragmatism is well taken; he was positively Machiavellian in his dogma as well as his personal life - the end always justified the means. In retrospect, he was a rationalist more than anything else, which gives a bad name to rationalism, but then rationalism is responsible for everything from Fascism to the Big Mac. M cpaitalized on an ideology the way every ideologue does, by proclaiming himself the one with the only answer to all our problems, telling us we'd better follow him or we would suffer the torments of the damned, making sure we never felt sure enough of ourselves to question him or do as good a job on our own - the consummate politician in more ways than I can count. Calling him absurd from our current viewpoint shouldn't blind us to the fact that this guy's good, very good, at his job.
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 09:25:33 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: nigel
Subject: Thanks, Nigel
Message:
I've given up on addressing some of the bizarre statements made by OP regarding Maharaji's imaginary divinity. She tap-dances around the subject as if it wasn't there, and then jumps in with both feet as if there's nothing else. Seems to be her own personal ritualistic dance to duality.

As for this being your last post for a bit - Hey, don't make me sic the Gopis on you. Keep posting - Or Else. [snicker]
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 12:45:41 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: all of the above
Subject: Thanks, everyone.
Message:
I really appreciate it when all you wonderful people make these nice comments and reassure me I'm not just waffling into the void. And it's you lot that make it hard for me to stay away for more than five minutes. Just for the record, I have no intention of quitting the forum - at least not while Roly Poly is still recruiting the gullible, getting richer from it, and lying about his past. For as long as all that's happening, I intend to stick around and torment the old fraud to the best of my ability by whatever legal means are available.

Meanwhile my head needs a bit of break. It isn't so much the time I'm spending here, so much as this bad habit of finding myself thinking about the hamster all the time - probably as much as if he actually meant something to me - which is a stupid state of affairs. Also I've got some other things that need urgent attention, right now.

I'd just like to add that I love reading all your posts, folks, as well as those of the other forum regulars. You're great company, and it beats watching TV any day.

(BTW, Brian. Can you just set the gopis on me one at a time? I'm not as young as I used to be..)

Cheers,
Nigel
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 18:16:41 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Better late than never...:-)
Message:
Nigel: Absolutely superb post, my friend. I would add one thing to your missive (this is for all premies): It won't matter one whit whether you knew Maragie or not, whether you meditated or not, whether you watched videos or not...when you die! So tell me, why should I waste my time with his nonsense and why are you wasting yours? The very best I can hope for (when 'I' die) is that I left some sort of legacy to this world that was worthy of my having taken up some space in it. Isn't 'that' enough?
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 20:07:06 (EST)
From: TD
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: sins of omission
Message:
As everyone else has said, excellent post Mr Nigel. Premies have certainly been the most immoral and dubious bunch of people I've ever had the displeasure of being in a cult with, but then with the Master of Perfect Immorality leading by example, its not hard to see why....

Mind you on reading this post, I remembered from one of M's recent videos him saying something like this on the subject of death: 'Don't worry about death or the afterlife, because it will look after itself. We have been given what we need in this life (air and food etc), so why shouldn't we expect to be equally cared for in death.' I recall liking it at the time and it gave me comfort in that strange headspace known as premiedom, as did a lot of his blurb, but maybe the Big M was speaking about his experience of life in that all his needs (and more) have been taken care of - well lucky old him. Actually writing this, I can actually picture him having a Pharoah type burial with all his worldy goods being buried along side him so that his needs will be taken care of as he descends into the next world (down below of course for him!). He'd need his own cemetary just to fit the Gulfstream....

Anyway, now it annoys me how he constantly manipulates the issue of death in a way which I think capitalises on everyone's innate natural fear of it, and does so in a way which totally messes with premies heads and hence helps keep that freaky codependent infantile relationship premies have with him. As you noted, by whatever quotes he makes in regards to death, he IS inferring that he somehow is omniscient and knows more about it than you and I do.

Even though he makes out that he talks about death to remind us about 'life', personally I found I was far more obsessed with death and the fear of it as a premie, than I ever have been as either a non-premie or ex-premie.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 00:28:35 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Post again as you can Nigel-nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 15:52:47 (EST)
From: Garth
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Gender Bias?
Message:
I am curious - has anybody ever thrown a feminist light on Elan/DLM? To be more specific, are/were more women than men involved? Can we speculate, without being sexist, if M's strategies appealed to one more than the other? The women in this forum (at least the one's I assume are female by their names) seem to admit more emotional pain than the men, who, like me, express anger more readily. Is there something in this we can use as a tactic to combat the cult?
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 16:47:11 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Garth
Subject: Gender Bias?
Message:
This is a great topic--I have to think about it for a bit. I certainly have my share of resentment about feeling like I had to be the perfect devotee of God--always graceful, never angry, never bitchy (try that when you've got PMS and your breasts feel like throbbing rocks). If I expressed anger , God forbid, I was told I was in my mind. This image of perfection was so similar to the perfect wife image of those 50's and 60's sitcoms--

Look at Marolyn (or however she spells her name)--is she a weak little flower, or what? And she was some kind of symbol of womanhood for all of us??

Let's face it though, both genders were denigrated and made weak. SOme of those premie men were like eunuchs straight out of the medieval times

Hope this post made sense!
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 17:02:20 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Gender Bias?
Message:
Throbbing rocks huh? ouch.
Yeah, after I wrote that silliness about Red Nighty and the penis tape, I started thinking, I knew those types.
The overall impression left with me: they were always flirting, heavily, and if I tried to make anything happen they freaked!

I don't think there was much of a gender bias really. And not all but most of the women here seen able to express anger.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 18:46:49 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Gender Bias?
Message:
I don't really think there was much of a gender bias either, Maharaji was an equal opportunity con artist.
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 02:48:40 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Gender Bias?
Message:
There wasn't gender bias in terms of who got involved in the cult. I think men and women were equally attracted and retained. But there was, especially in the beginning, real sexism in terms of who got into leadership positions in DLM and EV, who were initiators, and who were on BM's personal staff. Many times more men (er bothers) that women (er sisters). [CCs and general secretaries, v. housemothers, that was the usual distinction.] I think that did begin to change somewhat, but only somewhat, over the years. The Indian culture is more sexist than American culture and that's were a lot of the traditions came from.
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 03:55:47 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Gender Bias?
Message:
Like many Indian men ( boy, is this a racist generalisation-but I'm going to say it anyway ) M liked blonde women. This is purely my observation of the sisters who were around him. He just seemed to have more time for them. I remember joking with another security premie about it- we surmised it was just coincidence but we joked about giving satsang to all the female premies telling them if they were sincere in wanting to be close to M ,then they should bleach their hair.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 05:24:25 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Gender Bias?
Message:
Hey JW

Not all men are bothers. Don't be so hard on yourself!
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 08:43:32 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Helen
Subject: Gender Bias?
Message:
Dear Helen,
You had me laughing! :)
'I certainly have my share of resentment about feeling like I had to be the perfect devotee of God--always graceful, never angry, never bitchy (try that when you've got PMS and your breasts feel like throbbing rocks).'
What do throbbing rocks feel like! What a riot! Never was blessed with that lovely symptom! Sounds like a Mother Earth thing, rocks, you know.
I like your analogy to the 50's perfect little wife though and look what it did to Marylon, brain tumor or whatever it was she had. To much energy spent trying to make her once intelligent brain stop smacking her with doubt maybe! I had plenty of that going on without any prodding from the cult though after growing up in the mother from hell's household I was determined to be pleasant and sweet.
Love ya Helen,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 11:15:13 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Gender Bias?
Message:
Believe, throbbing rock syndrome is not sexy!!If my hubby tries to touch me at that time of the month, he might just pull back a bloody stump. (All you serious premies I AM JUST JOKING)

As per your mom, yeah, me too, we already had enough trips without the Mahraji trip as added on baggage!!
Love you too
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 11:31:49 (EST)
From: Garth
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Gender Bias?
Message:
Helen, this throbbing rock thing is making me nervous. I keep trying to stop a picture from entering my mind, but, as you know, the mind is the devil and must torment me. Help me out and focus my mind on another body part, PLEASE!
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 11:56:28 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Garth
Subject: Gender Bias?
Message:
I'm telling you Garth, it is not pretty or sexy. Picture a hag with breasts sagging down to her ankles!! That should cure you!!
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 12:27:50 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Helen
Subject: Gender Bias?
Message:
Dear Garth,
Or as if those metal pointy 'bras' Madonna use to wear, being the real thing! Hahahahaha!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 12:43:26 (EST)
From: Garth
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Gender Bias?
Message:
First of all you are not a hag. But changing the picture in my mind has (blechh) worked. I feel so much better now?
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 14:41:23 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Garth
Subject: Gender Bias?
Message:
Thank you Garth, seeing as we're an item now (according to the slimey creature that said so) you should know
(;
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 15:35:52 (EST)
From: Garth
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Gender Bias?
Message:
I've never flirted on-line before. Certainly not in front of several dozen almost total strangers, with the potential for hundreds more! Gotta be cool now - maybe I should ask her Sign!)
Remember the Bonnie Raitt song 'Let's Give Them Something to Talk About'? On the other hand those slimey creatures appear to be sleeping - let's not wake them.

Fondly
yours

G.
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 17:02:53 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Garth
Subject: Seriously now
Message:
A whole lot of flirting goes on here on the forum, and it's all fun, IMO. Hey, I might be married but I'm not dead.
Seriously though, I brought up the whole topic of hormonal changes because of your post about gender bias. I think in a lot of ways, we (both men and women) were expected to be dependent children in GM's world--economically impotent, child-like in relationship to the world, to commitments, to one another.. For both genders this was destructive, on so many levels.

I brought up the PMS stuff because it is REALITY--and so much of the reality of life--the difficult stuff, the messy stuff--was swept under the rug. I mean it was all staged--the festivals were staged, satsang was staged (self-censured) the way we behaved with one another was totally contrived. Adulthood is coming to deal with one's mortality and with all the messy stuff. To me, adulthood necessitated outgrowing Maharaji, because his world view never dealt with tough issues. We've all talked about this. If he had dealt with real human issues, shown his vulnerabilities, for example when Marolyn had her stroke we would have felt closer to him no doubt. Instead he talks about an experience within that has no realtionship to real practical life.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 09:47:36 (EST)
From: Garth
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Ritual
Message:
What you say about the staged aspect of life with M brings to my mind the purpose of ritual in many religions. To bring the devotee closer to their God, to separate sacred and profane aspects of life, to renew the spiritual connection, to worship communally, to symbolically equate the ceremony with the 'reality', all of which probably rings a bell with you. Problem with M's version is that he wanted you to believe that the ritual WAS the reality and everything else was illusion. Connected closely with that was the dependency because he was the only one able to grant you access to that reality. I agree with what you say about adulthood meaning outgrowing dependency on 'Father M', but maturity, to me, at least, doesn't mean outgrowing a need for things of the spirit; in fact, a closer connection to the messy things of life can, and should, in my opinion, bring you closer to others, by identifying with their needs as the same as yours - something I see in this Forum every day.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:42:15 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Garth
Subject: Ritual
Message:
I agree with all you have said here, I'm with you that we have a need for the spirit--messy things are part of it for me too!! Life is messy!! Viva la mess!!
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 12:59:33 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: EXCELLENT MOVIE
Message:
I've seen 'Festen' recently.

This is a new danish movie, and it's not off topic at all (for all exes)!

One of the best movies I've ever seen.

I won't tell the story, because it's a real surprise. What I can say is that it's about abuse inside a family. And the whole story unfolds beautifully.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 09:42:37 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Op's Divine Mr. M (retread)
Message:
[saved from a dying thread]

Jim: 'I could make a list [of Maharaji's miracles] that would make Jesus look like a side show for the main event. But I really DON'T like the idea of judging on the basis of cosmic entertainment.'

As I recall, I wrote this in an email that you agreed would just be between us. Now I'm very glad that I didn't go through with sending you everything I'd intended, because I know it would be posted.

I checked again and see some reference in one of your emails to my 'promise' to keep something secret. The problem is, even then, I wrote you that I didn't remember making any such deal. I asked you where I had and, as far as I can see, you never answered. Again, op, where did I ever make such a promise?

And I still don't like the idea of a miracle display. I'm sorry, I'm not going to do it. I know you would find it fun to try to find the sleight of hand in every step that M has ever taken. But there are some things that I DO hold dear, even sacred, if you will. And I won't have them trod upon.

Oh, this is so lusciously melodramatic, my dear. I can just see you, backhand to forehead, noble and long-suffering, biting your lower lip as you turn, once again, from a chance to redeem your credibility with the heathens but only if you sacrifice the sanctity of the special visions your Lord has bequeathed. No, you'd rather burn at the stake of public ridicule than cheapen those divine memories.

God, op, I feel so dirty for even asking. Please, sister, forgive me.

But I can tell you, they don't have anything to do with getting high off of charanamrit, or being carried out of the darshan tent in a state of semi-conscious bliss. Nor with being blown into interplanetary space by 'holy breath'. These items have nothing to do with altered consciousness.

Well,while we're at it, what is (or rather was) 'holy breath' all about? All I knew about it was that you had to get it from the satguru once -- and once only! -- after receiving k. It was supposed to be the glue that binds the devotee to the master or something. Now I'm out of the cult and you're the well-placed long-time member, I'll defer to your seasoned explanation, I'm sure. What was it?

By the way, if you say that 'holy breath' was just another quaint 'Indianism', I'd ask you if and when m ever realized as much.

Those are Eastern ways of showing devotion and respect for the master, and nothing more. Some people love them, just like some people love rituals of other sorts in their lives. Others find them silly, or offensive.

Oh, I see. You've already answered this somewhat. Are you saying, then, that 'holy breath' was just an empty ritual, nothing more? Let me get this straight: when I, as a confused, excited 19 year-old puppy, did what I was told and cupped my right ear to M, I was showing my devotion to him? And when he blew into my ear, he was symbolically doing what, pray tell? Accepting me? You mean, it wasn't anything more than that?

Are you sure? Who told you? How do you know? See, I was also told, as were you, that 'holy breath' was an essential step for a devotee to take. Was that just bullshit? When did you learn that? When did Maharaji? Did he always know? Interesting...

I mentioned below that there have been some absurd mistakes along the way - one of them, I think, was mixing up psychedelics with darshan.

Oh, you mean like when Maharaji said that he could show us an 'internal LSD' from which we'd never have to 'come down'? Is that what you're talking about?

I completely agree that what most people perceived as a 'high' from Darshan was their own endomorphins.

And that's your definitive answer? What is this, op the neuroscientist? You're now willing to completely dismiss the notion that Maharaji, the same guy you say is able to pull of such amazing miracles they'd make Jesus look like a 'side show', isn't capable of giving the odd premie a bit of a buzz, a little frisson, a cosmic burp? Now that's interesting too...

I happen to like the rituals. I feel very close to Indian culture, and feel comfortable in it. I know people who are just as 'devoted', feel just as close to M - or closer, who can't relate to India and Indian ways at all.

I just want to get clear about this. Are you saying that 'holy breath' was nothing but a ritual? Again, when and how did you learn this?
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 11:08:08 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Op's regular guy, M (retread)
Message:
[from another dying thread]

I don't deny that there have been some decisions along the way that don't make sense. I have told you several times that I don't see Maharaji as a perfect person. If I try to explain what I do see in him, however, all I've ever come up against - mostly from you, Jim - is daggers and punches.

OP, it's quite unfair of you to keep doing this. This is why i told you to 'fuck yourself' in the first place. You make some pretty absurd and untenable assertions, then you blame me for picking them apart. 'Daggers and punches'? Get serious. Here, for instance, you're saying you don't see Maharaji as a perfect person (even though he's done miracles so amazing as to make poor ol' Jesus 'look like a sideshow'). So I'm asking you, pretty simply, what's imperfect about him? Now if you can't honestly answer that question without contradicting yourself is it my fault? Do I 'punch' or 'stab' you by pointing that out?

I know it looks like I ran away last time I was on the board. I didn't really mean to, and I'll try to answer questions this time.

Typical opism. Aw shucks, didn't really mean to, blah, blah, blah. Op, you started a big argument here and you ducked out the first chance you got. Quit trying to play us all the time, will you?

Here's one. You (I think it was you, anyway) wrote about the enjoyinglife site:

Jim: Tell me this, op. Do you not agree that the premies SOUND like they're in a cult? I'm not asking if they are. That's another question. I'm asking you if you think they would SOUND like they are to anyone reading them.

I think some of the people who write on the site could easily sound like they're not thinking for themselves. I don't know if I'd go quite so far as saying that they sound cultish, but several of them seem to have picked up key words and expressions and use them like a formula. I don't like those posts either, and I wish people would think for themselves.


Well you might not go 'quite so far' but anyone else would and you know it. There is no way in the world you can dispute the obvious fact that you guys sound like you're in a cult. Hey, read all that garbage on ELK. Forget about here. Tell me that all those interchangeable jargon-thick 'expressions' don't sound like they were generated by a random cult expression generator.

Even as you put it, that some seem to have found a formulaic way to spout the 'key words' and expressions, raises the same concerns. Why did these people turn into this? What's m done to help or hinder their deteriorating of autonomy?

But there are some others, some who I know personally and some who I don't, who I do find really inspiring. Some stories that make me want to meet the person, or wish I could respond to her or him.

Care to give a few examples? All I read is the same, empty goo. Who, in contrast, strikes you as an interesting person?

Then there are people who are just plain bad writers, and don't know how to express themselves with words. They get the E for effort, because they've dared to put themselves on the line, even if they don't do it quite with quite as much flair as you (or I) would like them to.

Yes, I've noticed those poor birds who don't sing quite with quite as much as others. Sigh!

As for humor, making fun of ourselves - I don't see M doing it in public very often (although he does on occasion - not on stage at an official event, but in more casual settings). Definitely others do laugh at themselves. I know a few pompous asses who refuse to, who won't admit to, for example, ever missing a day of 'practice'. But there are plenty of other people who can take - and give - a ribbing.

Well the question's all about m. Is he a pompous ass, Mr. 'Master' and everything? Tell me the last time he took a gentle ribbing about oh, say, saving the world or something? Or about the little internecine power plays he and Satpal have enjoyed? Or about his ex-followers clamouring for answers and a little accountability?

Do people laugh at M? Tease him about a bad hair day or an ugly tie? I don't know. True, I've never seen that. But is it a prerequisite to anything? I never teased my college professors, either. Nor my father, even though I disagreed with him on many subjects. Nor several of my relatives, certainly not those who are older than me.

You never once teased your father? You poor thing (and I'm not being faceitious one bit on this). You mean to say that even as you got older and were no longer expected to obey him without question, you never relaxed and picked an dpulled at his mantle of authority? That's bad news, op. Really bad news.
Your college professors had extremely limited roles in your life compared to M. The question, by the way, isn't so much whether you ever teased them but rather whether anyone did. I'd be pretty surprised if they never took at least a little ribbing from their friends, family and peers. And your older relatives mught have been distant and formal with you. I'm sure they all had at least a couple of friends they could loosen up with.

In m's case do we know of a single person who can play the jester to his majesty?

As for my anonymity, sorry Jim, I have to keep that, at least for now. You'll have to trust that it's because I can't afford a high profile, which posting here would give me automatically.

Well you might accept this situation but it's obviously a mark of an extremely compromised person. What do you have to be afraid of? You'll be chastised in m's world for being yourself? Too bad.
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 00:15:19 (EST)
From: bill--Help OP with her
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: miracle list .
Message:
I'd be interested in hearing about these miracles that OP says
prem rawat did that puts jeusu/yeshua's list of miracles to shame.

I guess OP believes that yeshua did heal blind and deaf and
brought a couple guys back from the dead and whatnot.

If she thinks she has insight into vast miracles we are
overlooking, cant she share them while posting with another name
if she doesnt want to sully the OP name by posting them herself.

Let me guess, she attributes, like the moonies do, that
prem rawat(rev moon), caused russia and china to leave communism
so that knowledge(divine principles moon) could invade those
countries.

Did he save us from that comet Kahotek in 73? Was that destined
to hit us till he put on the crown at the millenium festival?

During the hurricane festival, was it him that bumped the
hurricane away when it just glanced Miami?

Is the y2k bug here just to show us that western kali yuga
is clouding our view of the lord when he is here in person
so we need to be ground to a halt so we can look up from our
pursuits of happiness to see that having only him is our happiness
So y2k is yet another miracle?

I am overlooking the bulk of her list no doubt.
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 04:19:32 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: bill--Help OP with her
Subject: miracle list .
Message:
I remember heaps of stories about so called miracles. Most of them turned out to be bullshit when I asked the people who were actually there or they supposedly happened to. Premiedom was great with the chinese whispers. As far as I know , M never claimed to do miracles as such- although ' bringing peace to the world ' and 'coming with full powers' certainly insinuated they could be done. Jagdeo claimed that M manifested to him every night-enough said. A premie reckons he saw M manifest behind me while I was giving satsang one night. A baby supposedly got raised from the dead in India. A premie saw M driving his car through downtown Seattle when he was doing a program in London. Arthur Brigham ran at 80 mph while being dragged along by M on a motorcycle in India and didnt even feel puffed. M's ulcer in 73 averted WW3. M once saved Bob Mishler from heart failure...now if only Bob had still been following M a few years later.... the list goes on.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 13:21:04 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: More Miracles
Message:
M saved his mansion and the premies in it from being destroyed by the Malibu fires, when everything else in the area was destroyed. (That last phrase wasn't true, by the way.)

M supposedly turned an entire freeway around in England to prevent a premie from having an accident.

M cured several people from cancer and other diseases, that they never really had in the first place, although he didn't seem able to cure all those 'sick' ashram premies in the Broadripple who had various, mysterious, new-age illnesses, nor could he prevent all the premie suicides.

Mahatma Vijayanand said M and Mata Ji appeared to him every night, but then later Vijay rejected M and became his own guru at some point, and so now he does his own miracles.

I have heard premies suggest that the end of the Cold War was due to the presence of the Perfect Master,and by his grace, nuclear war was averted, all as part of his unfolding plan to bring world peace as he promised.

By the way, I heard Bob Mishler talk about M raising the baby from the dead in India. It was a very convoluted explanation, and he didn't actually say M brought the baby back from the dead, but that was clearly implied. And this was in 1975. So Mishler wasn't beyond promoting the divinity thing, even though he later said he was trying to undo it.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 06:28:12 (EST)
From: AE
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Waking up from the dream
Message:
It's all on The truth about Maharaji

More will be added soon. Thanks to all contributors.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 10:06:51 (EST)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Waking up takes time
Message:
Please don't get impatient with me (esp. Nim, I thought you were kind of cool) about leaving the trip (or trap). This is a difficult move in my life that I hope y'all can remember. It just takes time. It took me a year after receiving K to accept (and love) M, it may take me some time to let him go, too. In my mind it's sort of like when I did therapy with abused women who were still with their husbands. It's frustrating and takes time. And the women have both positive and negative experiences to relate to and rarely break away immediately. In therapy you work slowly on 'planting seeds' that only germinate when the client is ready to understand/ realize them. It's normal to want to believe what you want to believe. It's going to take time...

Just this morning I was listening to the new Madonna CD, the song where she sings in Sanskrit. Part of what she says is about adoring the lotus feet of her guru and it made me sad. I didn't want a guru when I first approached K, but since I've had one, I must say there has been comfort there. I feel alone. I feel like the woman who knows she has to divorce her husband, but is enjoying what little comfort or at least security there was with him, not quite ready to be alone. (Never been divorced, but worked with lots of divorced/divorcing people).

I am taking this site seriously. It's just so hard for me to fathom certain things like M telling us not to have principles or allowing abuse. I'm not at all saying it's not true, maybe my denial system won't allow that in yet. I guess I must have started mistrusting M a while ago because otherwise I probably wouldn't have been able to hear any of this, as some of the 'perfect premies' that post on this site occasionally can't.

Re: past history and all the trappings of old premie life: All I can say about this is that just like all the bad stuff from the past that you want to let me know, I have a natural curiousity about what premie life was like before I came along (that none of the older timers ever bothered to bring up) . I thought I knew what there was to know until I found this site. I don't feel comfortable discussing any of these issues with people in my local community,
so the only place would be here. I don't mean to trivialize what you're trying do here, but if y'all can talk about Teletubbies, why can't I ask about barragons? Think about it like asking your parents about your family history and stories. Remember, I've been in the premie 'family' for 16 years now and I feel like I should know what there is to know.

Hey Nim, the Red Nighty story is where I found out about the charanmrit anyway. Sorry to bring this up again, but I'm having a hard morning.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 10:57:48 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Waking up takes time
Message:
I think most people here just want to express what they see is true, and know this isn't an overnight process. Personally, I think it's totally fair for you to ask about barrogans, and you're right about the teletubbies.

Not to diminish your need to take your time with all this, what did you think about G-Mom's post about being molested by Jagdeo? Were you convinced that it happened and that maharaji did nothing after hearing about it? Or do you think there wasn't enough there to form an opinion?
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 14:06:37 (EST)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Waking up takes time
Message:
Re: the molestation and M's actions, I would be surprised if, in that big an organization, there was not a child molester. I don't doubt that's true. Truth is, I don't have enough info. to know exactly what went on. My husband and legal counsel would say this is all heresay.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 14:21:01 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Waking up takes time
Message:
Hey stupes,

G's mom was a witness, an eye witness. Is THAT hearsay????? You're cooked.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 14:51:13 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Waking up takes time
Message:
The question isn't if it's reasonable that there's a child molester in an organization the size of DLM/EV, but that after finding out about one and telling the leader, is he morally bound to do something about it. And did G-Mom provide enough information to determine that maharaji knew about it? She did, after all, provide two examples of measures she took to inform maharaji, and provided information that indicates maharaji acknowledged her.

And Gerry's correct that G'Mom's description of what happened to her (and the subsequent actions she took) isn't hearsay. So what more would you need to decide that something is really creepy?

Tell me something... if you met Jagdeo and he seemed like a swell enough chap, would you leave your kids with him for a bit, while you had a knowledge review (or something)? Would your husband approve? I really want to know. Thanks, Denise.
Rick
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 14:11:01 (EST)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Rick & gerry
Subject: Jagdeo
Message:
Sorry, y'all, hadn't read G's mom's Journey entry until last night. I was going based on her post from a week back or so that was kind of vague to me about how she knew about the molestation. I guess I assumed (we all know what happens when one does that!) she just heard about molestation. Now that I read the Journey, I more fully understand the situation. Y'all are absolutely right, it sounds as if M knew all along and did nothing. That blows me away, him being a father and all. I wonder what he would say about that now.
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 17:38:57 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Jagdeo
Message:
I wonder what he would say about that now.

Why don't you ask him?

Jagdeo was seen as recently as 1995 in a position of 'honor' sitting at an event with the other ''great souls.''
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:41:29 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: relief on G's moms part..
Message:
I was a bit stunned by your previous post. It did not seem in keeping with the fairness and courage you have shown in your other posts. I did not know what to say so I said nothing.

I just want to say Denise that I am with Katie in that I am not invested in outcome of the proccess you are going through here. I find it a bit unsettling to observe both premies and ex's seem to fight over your attention.

This has actually been thought provoking for me. I have wished many times that when I was a teen my mom had hired a deprogrammer. And at least in the '70s a deprogramming was a brutal thing in which the cult member was denied his or her civil rights in order to get enough time to help , this is my view, the cult member to regain the capacity to analyze and think for thmeselves, and regain in my view the civil rights that the cult had stolen. But do two wrongs make a right? At least if I had been deprogrammed I would have been a minor and it would have been entirely legal. So I think it would have been entirely right for me. And at the crux of Rawats game as I know it is the essential you cannot use your mind to look at this...which places him beyond scrutiny and immobilizes the defenses of cult members, my view of deprogramming is getting the member to think for themselves again, and then letting them do it.

That is what most of the ex's are doing here. Saying think Denise. And that is good in my view. So I do not know what part bothers me. But you are here examining all of this by your own free will and I admire that. I admire when you say to both sides what you honestly think. I see lots of signs you are thinking for yourself and that is great.

You know Denise if you do make it to the other side, by your own free will and use of your own mental capacities, you may be able to use your work as a psychologist to do a lot of good for ex cult members. I have been in therapy since being in the cult, and therapists cannot always really understand the nuances and traps of cult think. I urge you to think about that if you ever decide this really is a cult you likely can do a lot of good in the world with your experiences and education combined.

And I sound like I too am fighting for Denise's soul. I suppose I have to say it is because I know that Rawat is a bad man and a charlatan, like I said to you once, no one needs anything but the fact he claimed he was God and allowed people to serve him as if he was God to prove that. It is as simple as that.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 11:53:06 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Waking up takes time
Message:
Does Madonna have a guru? I am bummed.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 14:15:36 (EST)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Madonna & Gurus
Message:
Selene, I don't actually think Madonna has a guru. Last I read is that she is getting into a very spiritual mode in her life and is exploring the options, mostly eastern. She was into the Kaballah
(sp?) which is Jewish and now getting interested in Buddhist and eastern thought in general.

Maybe I should write her a letter and tell her about M. If she sang at events, I would go!!!
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 14:28:12 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Madonna & Gurus
Message:
Hell if she sang at events i'd even go, for her act only :)
Wonder if they would just 'know' and keep me out?
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 06:17:54 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Madonna, scientology, sanskrit
Message:
To my knowledge, Madonna was into scientology some years ago.

And, on one of her recent records, she is singing a few lines in sanskrit.

I was in India a few weeks ago, and read a local newspaper report about the sanskrit line. She actually went to Varanasi (Benares)
for a brief sankrit lesson in order to get the pronounciation correct. According to the report, she did not succeed very well anyway, but they responded positively to the fact that she did at least try.

Personally, I would NOT go the program with M, even if Madonna sings!
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 11:54:56 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Denise
Subject: To BEragon or not to BEragon
Message:
That is the question. Whether it is nobler in the mind to sit straight backed and suffer the slings and arrows of aching arms or to rest the elbows upon strong wood, perforce.

Actually Denise, for me it was the beragon thing which finally did it. I hadn't followed Maharaji since 1983 but when I heard a few years ago that he had banned beragons, I thought that he must be off his trolley. I realised then what a daft cult it had been and that the banning of beragons was just a marketing ploy.

I heard that Maharaji had berated the guy who invented the beragon. That was just too much for me because I used to make them myself in a little basement workshop back in 1972. They were and are very useful appliances for helping do certain meditation techniques. Only a fool would try to ban them.
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 09:14:51 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Denise
Subject: Waking up takes time/Denise
Message:
Hi Denise - I wanted to tell you that I really respect your willingness to openly discuss the process you are going through right now, on the forum. I think that takes a lot of courage, and I admire you for it. Also, I think asking questions is good, whether they're questions about beragons or whatever.

You wrote:
I feel alone. I feel like the woman who knows she has to
divorce her husband, but is enjoying what little comfort or at least security there was with him, not quite ready to be alone.


I think the analogy to divorce is a really good one (and I have used it before). I've seen people go through a lot even after they made the decision to leave M - it takes time to get through all the confusion, loss, nostalgia, anger, guilt, etc. and there are no short-cuts. I know that this is what happened to me after I left M, and I was fortunate enough to have the support of some other ex-premies who were going through the same thing. Many people don't have this support, and that's one of the main reasons this forum and site are here.

Discarding or 'growing out of' a long-held belief system is very hard. For a while, you are left with nothing to replace it, and this is extremely difficult. As you said, having that belief is comforting, and choosing to not have that belief is very uncomfortable.

Another thing that I wanted to say is that I honestly don't have anything invested in the outcome of your process. As you mentioned, at times your posts have been answered by both ex-premies and premies who appear to be impatient frustrated with your inability to 'see' what they can see so clearly. I appreciate your ability to answer these people without becoming offended. I think you're doing the right thing in sticking to your position, working through things, and not doing anything until you're ready. And I think the fact that you're doing this in public is not only very brave, but is also very helpful to the many people who read and post on this site. Thanks for this.

Take care, Denise,
Katie
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 19:14:59 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Ask 10 people, get 10 opinions
Message:
Denise,

All I can speak from with any authority is my own experience. My experience with Maharaji and Knowledge has been good since 1978.
Ups and downs, sure. But Knowledge was always on 24/7. Whenever I would check in, there it was. Knowledge has been my central point of reference and my portable sanctuary from 'this world'. (Everybody here does know what that means, even if they do make fun of the cliche.)

I have heard many things recently that have caused me to seriously pause and look twice. After doing so, I realize that there are (at least) two sides to every story, that all sides spin to their own advantage, and that I must go on my own inner guidance, personal experience and trust in those with whom I agree. That is not to say that I do not trust the ones I don't agree with....I respect their right to their experience, opinions, and do not question their sincerity. I just don't happen to agree with their summary judgement of Maharaji.

I don't want to deal with 'is the glass half empty or half full' anymore. That's an endless saga, to coin a phrase. I want to have the experience of 'my cup runneth over'. I have that when I practice Knowledge. Undeniable.

This post is not here to tell you to believe in Maharaji or not to. This post is here to tell you to believe in Denise all the way into your core. Whichever way it goes, it goes. I didn't see the big book on what the master is supposed to specifically act like or specifically do, so I can't judge on that level. I determined the tree by the fruit. And for me, the fruit has been good.

Whatever you do, I would be interested to hear from you and I respect your right to your own life, as I do everyone on this site So as of 3/2/99 I am, sincerely, SHP
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 21:19:24 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Denise: the 'ask 10's' for you
Message:
I just wanted to post this so you'd see the message is for you.
Many will read it and they are welcome, but I wrote it to you.
That's all.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 10:22:17 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: AE
Subject: Why
Message:
AE,
why are you posting with 2 different identities? (AE and Sir David)
just curious
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 14:32:46 (EST)
From: AE
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Why
Message:
I've mentioned this before but I'll say it again. Maharaji has himself called me An Enemy (shortened to AE). I never considered myself his enemy but since he has decided that I am to be his enemy and has made no attempt to make reparations to such people as Jim, JW, Gail, G's Mom and myself (to name but a few) and since he has decided to dismiss us as his enemies; so be it! His enemies we shall be.

Our doors are always open, unlike Maharaji's. We are willing to forgive and forget but forgiveness is a two way thing. So long as Maharaji continues to state that he has done nothing wrong, there will be this shadow of his enemies around him. And we will be there reminding or informing people that the happy, clappy trip that Maharaji expounds is a very different ball game if you get into it.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 15:24:44 (EST)
From: Garth
Email: None
To: AE
Subject: Why
Message:
I wish I could add to this on-going dialogue (multi-logue?)more often, but I only have access to the Internet at work and I find myself reading a heck of a lot of messages on Monday, when I should be working (hoping the network administrator isn't looking over my shoulder). The range of personalities on this forum is astonishing and I admire those serious people who actually converse about the dark legacy of DLM, instead those who mock, disrupt, and otherwise waste our time. I sense some healing going on amongst some troubled people, whose only emotional support may be here and some doubt being expressed by some who need to have their skeptical faculties awakened. Please keep up the good work; it's invaluable and in short supply.

To those who mock, insult, trivialize and otherwise engage in pointless, rude behaviour, ask yourselves, 'Would this get me punched out if I said it to someone's face?' and then STOP IT.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 16:53:01 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Garth
Subject: Oh horsecock!
Message:
To those who mock, insult, trivialize and otherwise engage in pointless, rude behaviour, ask yourselves, 'Would this get me punched out if I said it to someone's face?' and then STOP IT.

So we have another self-appointed censor, eh?

The whole beauty of this kind of communication is that we CAN say what ever we damn well please, because it's safe to do so, without worrying about a physical response. This makes us all equal in a sense, big men, small men, women, children, handicapped, whatever. We can say what's on our mind without fear of getting pounded in the face. I guess you would have things so controlled that only the ''physical elite'' i.e. those with greater brawn can speak their piece. Well, that ain't the why it is, tough guy.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 20:00:04 (EST)
From: AE
Email: None
To: Garth
Subject: Why
Message:
Thanks for those comments, Garth. I never actually intended to be a frequent poster on this site, nor did I set out to create a web site which Maharaji definitely would not like but what has happened is that I read some posts now and then which move me to respond in some way. And having been through the whole premie thing way back, I do feel some responsibility in letting people know how it is, from my perspective.

I think Gerry has misunderstood your final comment, judging by his post below. I think it is just a misunderstanding.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 20:32:02 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: AE
Subject: Why
Message:
I think Gerry has misunderstood your final comment, judging by his post below. I think it is just a misunderstanding.

Well, there's a first time for everything... :-)
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 09:29:07 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: AE
Subject: Why
Message:
AE,
why are you posting under 2 different identities: AE and Sir David?
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 06:23:03 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Garth
Subject: Why
Message:
I strongly agree with you, Garth.

I also read the Forum mainly at work, and Mondays mean lots of reading!
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 20:23:02 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: new-age anaesthetics
Message:
Just a few partially connected thoughts around the new age meness of premies & others.....

Saw a tv prog tonight on neo-nazis in the U.S.A, frightening the numbers involved, thought back to the 70's here in Britain when the British neo-nazis were flexing their muscles in youth culture & the positive effects of the anti-nazi league confronting this evil head on. And where was I in all this, why really making a difference with my tongue up my neck, calmly detached from everything. One of those little conscience rousers I'm sure we all went through.

Considering how sensitive we all were there were very few people of a premie persuasion doing anything really valuable from a social angle. The work I do now I could never have dealt with in my 'premiesh' days. Wondering how it has been for others from a social conscience angle since they left?

Just another take on being obsessed mainly with ones own happiness, and the inherent anaesthetic effect it has socially. A lot of people must have known about Jagdeo's paedophiliac tendencies, were phone calls to the local police station made? etc etc
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 22:13:10 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: new-age anaesthetics
Message:
I think we were encouraged not to read the newspaper or watch the news on TV...that was all 'Mind'.
Regarding the me-ness of it all (I agree wholeheartedly with you , it disgusts me now):
I think we premies became so addicted/conditioned to our once-in- a- while experience that we spent all our energy pursuing it...like chickens pecking for a pellet in those behaviorism experiments (remember intermittent reinforcement is the most powerful kind).

Two chickens pecking at the food cylinder:
Chicken 1: ' Peck, peck, did ya hear that Jagdeo is molesting children?'
Chicken 2: 'I can't think about that right now, I've got to get another pellet in me first, I'll think about it later, peck peck, here comes the pellet...ahhhhhh'
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 19:57:24 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Why Questions Are Bad
Message:
It occurred to me when Denise asked why m had told premies to ditch their barragons, why it wasn't okay for premies to ask questions.

The reason is that maharaji taught that 'mind' will always ask questions... endless questions. It wants to know details about everything, and yet it is never satisfied. This is because only the knowledge will satisfy you. That's why there's so little information about maharaji's shell game. No matter how many details one gets, they still want more, and it never satisfies them.

And to think... that stupid idiot, Nil, tried to deny that it wasn't okay to doubt in maharaji's organization. That was the whole ball game; doubt was like a runaway train. If you opened the door to...

Oh yes, now I remember. Remember those satsangs about how if you open the door to mind, if you just crack open the door, mind is already in. The moment you even crack open the door, mind has got in. Oh Jesus, it's all coming back now.

That was how he got us to not doubt, not ask questions, and just shut up and do what we were told. If you had any activity in your mind, it would be your destruction. So naturally, any person concerned with their welfare would try their hardest to stop the questions, stop the doubts, and JUST TRUST MAHARAJ JI

Yes, LEAVE NO ROOM FOR DOUBT IN YOUR MIND meant just that. How can these premies be so stupid?
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 20:21:01 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: That's it
Message:
Rick,

The most perverse aspect of all premiedom is the one that's hardest to explain -- Maharaji tried to get us to literally stop thinking. Sure, he sometimes backed off a bit and acknowledged that we had to think at some minimal level (remember the good 'brain' versus the bad 'mind'?), but he did indeed suggest that the 'path' of knowledge led to a 'place' in which we'd be 'one' with Maharaji and 'beyond' our minds. So while we knew we only 'glimpsed' 'place' in meditation, Maharaji, his Holy Family and at least the highest initiators, were always 'there'. Where? Beyond the mind.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 09:56:42 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Rick
Subject: Why Questions Are Bad
Message:
Dear Rick,
You know I read these things about how stupid we were and how we got sucked into this cult but I just thought that we were young and trusting. Even if we came from backgrounds where we couldn't trust I guess because it was about god we thought we could trust. I know myself I was much more gulible when I was younger, believe it or not! :) At my K session the Mahatma said that in India the K session took 15 min or 30 min or something but in the West because of all the questions it took 4 or 6 hours but at that time, anyway the questions were not shunned but I do remember thinking, well I am going to prove I am not like 'most' westerners and will not ask questions and so the brainwashing took another foot hold. It didn't seem like it was a controlling thing to me at the time of course but it just took advantage of our innocence, that I am sure we thought we were to sophisticated to even think of ourselves as being innocent at all. We thought we were making a well thought out decission.
I don't often think about BM and when this stuff hits me it is always a shocking surprize that I fell for it hook line and sinker. Thank god somehow I got out relatively fast and unschathed.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 11:06:07 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Why Questions Are Bad
Message:
You're right that one could ask questions, and people did. But the long-term message being delivered by m and the initiators was that questions and doubts came from the mind, and you just have to focus on the experience because the questions and doubts will never stop. And answering them would not bring satisfacion.

I agree that most of us thought of ourselves as sophisticated and wise.

Nice to see you, Robyn.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 12:01:18 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Rick
Subject: Why Questions Are Bad
Message:
Dear Rick,
Sorry I wasn't clear and I didn't even have a hang over from that yummy blueberry wine so I can't blame it on that! What I meant was that without disallowing questions, because we weren't into the cult yet, questions were subtlely put into a bad light and so without even noticing it I was changing my behavior to 'fit' into the mold, the first step of brainwashing.
Is that more clear? Hope so.
If you can 'see' me this must be Romp-a-Room! :) Forgive me I am in a very good mood right now.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 16:35:58 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Gotcha(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 13:11:51 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: The 'right' way
Message:
I remember a question being asked in my K session. Someone asked why would we will hear music more from our right ear, versus our left ear.

The Mahatma was a very nice lady. And she cleared that up quite succinctly. She said that 'it's because it's right,.'

HUH? We sat like good little almost-devotees, hoping we didn't just hear that. At least I did.

No, she went on to clarify that yes, it was the right ear, because it was 'right.' As in the right way to do things. The 'right' thinking. Righteous. etc.

Oh boy. I thought she was quite sweet, but maybe we got one of the Mahatma drop outs and were just unlucky. Maybe M should know about this, I thought. We'll he knows everything, I was told, so I needent worry. I didn't.

That just came back to me.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 14:09:15 (EST)
From: God
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: Divine harmony mystery solved
Message:
In case you all are interested, it's not really that complicated:

The divine harmonies are generated on the right side of the brain, hence they are louder through the right ear.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 15:19:34 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: God
Subject: Divine harmony mystery solved
Message:
divine harmonies are generated on the right side of the brain

Hey God,

Fascinating. Where does one learn this? A book? M? Where can I find out more?

The Discovery channel?

Or do I need to communicate with you directly for this intellectual/spiritual wisdom?
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 19:17:43 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Where'd you go, Mel? (repost)
Message:
[I pulled this up here because the thread's on the way out. I'm still looking forward to your answer here, Mel. You're not going to pull an op on me, are you?]

So I suppose my interpretation is ...'never leave room for doubt in your mind that Knowledge won't work for you'.

Well, Mel, the problem with your interpretation is that m often talked about what it was we shouldn't doubt. I agree, some of that was our 'experience' (although he even warned us about trusting that too much. Remember his satsangs about the mind's ability to 'fake' knowledge?). But he also said stuff like:

'And as that battle begins, the things get even more intense. And if that faith is not there, if that faith is not completely in Guru Maharaj Ji, you're going to fall in so many fragments that you wouldn't be able to count them yourself. You will run right out of count. Right out of it. You will go beyond zillions, billions, everything.' (emphasis added).

Now, again, Mel we have our little problem. I say there's only one way to interpret this: M's warning premies they'll fall to ruin if they doubt him. Any reasonable person, premie or not would agree. Yet I know you won't. You'll find some way to try to avoid admitting the obvious.

So, again, my challenge: can you find one, single person who's not a premie to agree with you? In this case one person who'll say that m's not warning premies to avoid doubting him at all costs?

Okay, that's one thing. But there's another. You say:

To me this last point is now beyond doubt, because it is part of a personal and self evident fact based on my own experience. It is not a belief or conviction I hold as such, but is so evident to me that it is impossible for me to deny even if I wanted to, much the same way as it is impossible for me to deny the colour of the sky or the taste of oranges.

Scientists can and do study both the colour of the sky and the taste of oranges. Hell, they study pretty well everything. Is there some reaon you can think of that knowledge should be any exception? Why shouldn't m offer a 'history lesson' on his site? He does a cursory job of showing something of what he claims is his lineage. Why not really get into it? Study the various possible explanations for the so-called 'knowledge experience'. Study its history. Explore all possible explanations. What is that 'nectar' stuff? How does 'light' work? Music? I mean, much as you like it and all that, you have to admit knowledge is, at best, something of a mystery.

Now, again, I know that you've got some reason to say no. My question to you then is can you think of a single other mystery that shouldn't be studied?
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 04:57:23 (EST)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Where'd you go, Mel? (repost)
Message:
Hi Jim

Yes I'm still here, did not get time to reply to your post before the sun set on it!

... M's warning premies they'll fall to ruin if they doubt him. Any reasonable person, premie or not would agree. Yet I know you won't. You'll find some way to try to avoid admitting the obvious.

How could I possibly disagree with the interpretation that you would accredit to 'reasonable people' (not that I'm reasonable myself, of course). The way you have selected your quote and given it a context would make it very difficult indeed, but it does not necessarily make it true, of course.

As you know, there is a huge amount of M quotes published and it is possible to take any snippet of this material and manipulate it in such a way to satisfy any 'reasonable person's interpretation' even if they (the interpretations) were contradictory. This is a lawyer's forte, is it not, Jim?

So, again, my challenge: can you find one, single person who's not a premie to agree with you? In this case one person who'll say that m's not warning premies to avoid doubting him at all costs?

Too time consuming, Jim, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Now, again, I know that you've got some reason to say no. My question to you then is can you think of a single other mystery that shouldn't be studied?

I assume you mean the 'mystery of Knowledge' in the above quote, Jim? If so, why do you think that I would disagree with this? I don't see any reason why Knowledge should not be studied in this way (if it's possible), so long as it could be enjoyed as well, of course. Personally, though, I'm really not particularly interested in the mechanics of why Knowledge should work. No doubt, we would have various learned schools of thought on the matter all competing with each other for the definitive 'reason' why Knowledge works.These arguments, of course, could provide an excellent diversion from experiencing the beauty of Knowledge.

Mel
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 08:11:26 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Honestly?
Message:
If so, why do you think that I would disagree with this? I don't see any reason why Knowledge should not be studied in this way (if it's possible), so long as it could be enjoyed as well, of course. Personally, though, I'm really not particularly interested in the mechanics of why Knowledge should work. No doubt, we would have various learned schools of thought on the matter all competing with each other for the definitive 'reason' why Knowledge works.These arguments, of course, could provide an excellent diversion from experiencing the beauty of Knowledge.

Mel,

The part of your answer I question is where you say you're not particularly interested in how k 'works'. If k were thoroughly examined (don't ask me how) and found to be a product of x (perhpas physical manipulation, divine intervention, food poisoning or whatever) it's beyond my imagination at least to think that you or any other premie would not want to know what's what. Hell, you might not want to want to know, you might think you shouldn't want to know but, well, if we left the report out on your pillow some night, you'd sure as hell peak at it.

Okay, given that you think this research should ensue, doesn't the cult's taboo against even discussing k's mechanics, let alone studying them, seem a little unduly repressive?
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 10:21:32 (EST)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Humour me
Message:
Mel, can you or anyone explain to me what the experience of the ''beauty of Knowledge'' is?
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 18:20:40 (EST)
From: Marshall
Email: None
To: Curious George
Subject: Mango
Message:
Can you 'explain' how a mango tastes? Of course not, the only way to find out how a mango tastes is to taste one. Likewise you can't 'explain' the beauty of knowledge, you must experience it, and the only way you can experience it is to let go of all your concepts first. Even one tiny doubt will wreck your potential experience.

In case anyone is taking me seriosly let me make it clear that this post is satirical and meant to poke fun at the idiotic 'concepts' premies use.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 20:19:50 (EST)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Marshall
Subject: Mango
Message:
Marshall

I don't beleive we've met, anyway ... hi

Even one tiny doubt will wreck your potential experience.

Satirical or not, you've made quite a perceptive point here. Obviously, if your tiny doubt prevents you from practising the techniques, then you will NEVER experience what Knowledge has to offer. Very Simple.

Mel
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 19:51:29 (EST)
From: Manjo
Email: None
To: Marshall
Subject: Mango
Message:
>In case anyone is taking me seriosly let me make it clear that this post is satirical and meant to poke fun at the idiotic 'concepts' premies use.

Why surtanly!
What does a mango taste like?
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 20:12:20 (EST)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Curious George
Subject: Humour me
Message:
Curious George

No, unfortunately, I can't, you have to experience it for yourself

Mel
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 20:07:58 (EST)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Honestly?
Message:
...you'd sure as hell peak at it.

Jim - Of course I would!

...doesn't the cult's taboo against even discussing k's mechanics, let alone studying them, seem a little unduly repressive?

What 'cult taboo' are you alluding to? I am aware that most premies beleived that speculation on the 'mechanics' was a waste of time, but I am not aware that there has been any concerted effort by M or anyone else to 'repress' study on the matter.

Mel
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 21:54:50 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Bullshit, Mel
Message:
What 'cult taboo' are you alluding to? I am aware that most premies beleived that speculation on the 'mechanics' was a waste of time, but I am not aware that there has been any concerted effort by M or anyone else to 'repress' study on the matter.

You're so far from honest it's appalling. Maharaji has frozen out all intellectual, scientific, historical or psychological inquiry from the get go. Take a look at ELK where as recently as last November he dismissed the wisdom of trying to understand k with anything but 'thirst':

People want to see proof. They say to me: 'Show me that your Knowledge is real. Show me that it works.'

I say: 'Show me your thirst.'


(Katmandu - 15/11/98)

Yeah, thanks. So much for science.

How about this edict against the mind?:

Your heart just wants life to be easy. It's your head that yearns to make it all as complicated as possible.

(Mauritius - 22/11/98)

Here's some more anti-mind programming:

How can we open our minds to a wider understanding of the force which has created this universe? Our natural desire is to wrap everything up in a definition. By doing this, we keep a true understanding of the creator at arms length. And then we get stuck.

(Katmandu - 14/11/98)

Doesn't exactly sound like he's too keen on thoughtful inquiry, discussion, study or experimentation, does he? In fact, read this:

If you want to receive Knowledge, first answer your questions. Listen. Not to the words but to the message behind the words. This is a process of communication from one heart to another.

(Katmandu - 14/11/98)

Here's a little more typical cult-leader anti-intellectual stuff:

Anyone can give a lecture, a history lesson or a speculation about what the future holds. People love to tell you what to do and they love to tell you what not to do. There are so many experts in this world. Some talk about the things that happened a hundred years ago or a thousand years ago. They feel sure that they know what happened and when it happened and why it happened. Maybe they're right and maybe we will never know. But what about now? What about what's happening in your life right now?

(Katmandu - 13/11/98)

And notice how he disses the intellect yet again that same speech:

People take such pride in their strength. Some people feel strong in their intellect: 'I know this, I know that, I've been here, I've been there.

****

But why do we have such a need to feel strong? Here, in this world, there's a battle going on. We think that we won't win that battle unless we have all those strengths. So we try to acquire them. Muscle, money, pride, power, status, success.

When none of these things work, what can you do but give up? You have to give up. And then, when you give up, you wake up and you realise that you are thirsty, thirsty for something that can only ever exist within your heart.


(Katmandu - 13/11/98)

Or look how he discusses the intellect a few days earlier in Delhi:

With Knowledge you don't have to ask questions. Even if you don't ask any questions you'll get all the answers you need. Intellectuals spend ages cooking up impossible questions, but what's the good of a question no-one can answer?

(Delhi - 8/11/98)

No, Mel, you can say what you want. Go ahead, be as dishonest as you like. The truth is quite apparent. It speaks for itself.

If this isn't a 'concerted effort to repress study on the matter', what is?
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 01:32:57 (EST)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bullshit, Mel
Message:
Jim

I never cease to be amazed at your capacity to trot out M's quotes to spuriously justify your point of view.

Maharaji is pointing out in most, if not all of these quotes that there is more to life than just an intellectual understanding, that there is a world of positive feeling that can be accessed by practising knowledge. In doing so, he is not saying that intellectual understanding is to be shunned, and the gist of what he says in these quotes is espoused by a number of 'wise' people. (ie. that we rely on our intellects too much and should follow our hearts more).

I really don't know how you can say (on the basis of the quotes) that he is mounting a concerted effort to repress study on the issue of Knowledge. In my opinion, at the very most he is calling for people to have a balance in their lives.

I believe that most 'reasonable' people, on examination of the quotes, would come to a similar conclusion to me.

Really, Jim, you surprise me!

Mel
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 08:29:50 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Bullshit Mel - DENISE?
Message:
In doing so, he is not saying that intellectual understanding is to be shunned,

Of course he is! Gonna take us right down to 'black is white' are you, Mel? Fine. Make a fool of yourself. Whatever.

and the gist of what he says in these quotes is espoused by a number of 'wise' people. (ie. that we rely on our intellects too much and should follow our hearts more).

WhatEVer. You're right, in one sense, I must admit. Maharaji's not the only mediocrity espousing this useless new ageism. But that's not the the point. It doesn't matter how many others advocate something similiar. What matters is that Maharaji does indeed eschew the intellect generally and, more specifically, any effort to understand 'knowledge', such as it is, with the mind.

I really don't know how you can say (on the basis of the quotes) that he is mounting a concerted effort to repress study on the issue of Knowledge. In my opinion, at the very most he is calling for people to have a balance in their lives.

No, Mel, at the 'very most' he is calling for people to live like idiots.

I believe that most 'reasonable' people, on examination of the quotes, would come to a similar conclusion to me.

Yeah? Find me one. Here, I'll tell you what. Why don't we ask Denise what she thinks? She's obviously no ringer for either 'side' and, even though she's been in the cult for the last 16 years, I'm willing to trust her judgement. Let's ask her if she thinks Maharaji has tried to 'repress study on the issue of 'knowledge'. Or, put another way, if the 'cult has a taboo against discussing or studying' 'knowledge'.

Denise?
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 15:01:55 (EST)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sorry Jim...
Message:
I'm going to have to go with Mel on this one. My husband and I were discussing the issue of trying to analyze K logically and he stated that certain things you can't apply logic to and this is one of them. I agree. I would have to say that this is an experience that really can't be broken down and analyzed, like tasting the mango. I agree with Mel's posts.

I have seen someone on this site say they believe that K 'works' for some people and not others and I am willing to say I think this is true, at least from my experience I would say so. Those of us who it 'works' for (I would think) don't need any reason to analyze it, just enjoy it, no matter how it works.

Also, I personally have never heard M shun the futher analysis of anything. Mostly what I have heard him say is to ask any question you want and make sure you feel completely clear of questions and comfortable before receiving K. He has said he wants people to try everything else they want to first and if nothing quenches their thirst, to come back and give K a try. I can relate, because that's what I did. Anyway, he SEEMS open to people questioning to me.
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 18:01:04 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: But Denise
Message:
You said this:

Can't get all into it now, but re: K experiences I've had, basically had to do with changes in consciousness that were extremely blissful and fulfilling for one. Have read about it in psychological lit. in different places called different things. Also, #3 technique fills me with such a feeling of peace and love I can't deny. Yes, it is probably biochemical, I can feel the vibration inside.

(emphasis mine)Denise, if it's biochemical, it could be studied. Yes?
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 22:40:35 (EST)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: But Denise
Message:
Yes and no.
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 23:58:02 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Bull tickie, Denise
Message:
Denise,

You said one of the meditation technique's 'probably biochemical'. Fine. Then Rick asked you if that didn't mean that it could then be studied. You said 'yes and no'.

Denise, there is no such category. Either you can or you can't. Now maybe there's some magic or at least inscrutable aspect to the technique. Maybe it's God's special wind discernable only by the truly brain-dead. BUT, we can still study it. You know, we can chip away at it, give ourselves maybe a few years or something. Hey, how about a thousand? Do you really think we can't crack that code in a thousand years? What cult leader's you been talking to anyway?
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 21:38:42 (EST)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bull tickie, Denise
Message:
You can study the biochemistry of it and do brain scans and talk about producing alpha waves, but you still can't study the experience itself. Just like you can study the physiological changes of death but not the experience itself, other than describing it.
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 21:27:48 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: You can do better than that
Message:
I'm going to have to go with Mel on this one. My husband and I were discussing the issue of trying to analyze K logically and he stated that certain things you can't apply logic to and this is one of them. I agree. I would have to say that this is an experience that really can't be broken down and analyzed, like tasting the mango. I agree with Mel's posts.

Denise,

This isn't what I was asking you about exactly but seeing as you've gone here so will I. What you're doing, frankly, is simply reciting the old premie saw about 'experience'. And, frankly, the whole idea is bullshit.

Think about it.........SEE??

There; I just proved my point. Of course, knowledge can be -- and, indeed, is -- analyzed by anyone and everyone who ever thinks about it. To even be able to mention 'it', to even think there is an 'it' to begin with requires one's mind. Just like a mango, by the way. The only way this wouldn't be true would be if somehow premies are visited in their sleep by something or other and 'knowledged' in their sleep. Of course they could never know they were 'knowledged'. As soon as they did they'd be analyzing the hell out of the situation trying, as people do, to figure things out.

The whole mango jive is ridiculous and just a cult ploy to stave off your critical faculties. Here's why. Say you've never had a mango and I want to tell you what it tastes like. Yes, it's true, I could never fully explain the specific taste. One reason is it's never been that important to us to develop our language with such elaborate precision. We've got general words like 'sweet' 'tangy' etc. that usually do well enough in lieu of the actual experience. Anyone who mistook reading about a mango for trying one would be a fool, but that's not to say they might not have some general idea of what to expect.

But there are so many ways to get close to understanding the mango taste sensation short of actually eating one. One can learn, for instance, that the mango is a lot like this or like that. Sure, it's not exactly like a papya (it's sweeter and juicier) but it's kind of like it. How is it different? Well, it's got a 'brighter' taste (to me anyway), almost as if it had some citrus in it. Yet it has that papya overtone. Know what I mean?

But, more than that, scientists can actually study taste, the various overtones, flavour 'harmonics' or whatever they call them. They can learn all sorts of things about the taste that, granted, might never be a substitute for actually eating one but which, nonetheless, tell them much about what the thing actually is. And who knows? Maybe one day they'll know better and better how to understand all sorts of things about mangoes we'd never imagine. Maybe they'll learn why we like them and how to make them taste even better! You get the picture.

I have seen someone on this site say they believe that K 'works' for some people and not others and I am willing to say I think this is true, at least from my experience I would say so. Those of us who it 'works' for (I would think) don't need any reason to analyze it, just enjoy it, no matter how it works.

And you call yourself a psychologist?? I'm amazed. Look, who said it's one or the other? This false dichotomy of 'enjoy' or 'analyze' is just guru garbage. Maharaji would have you think that the 'heart' is like tinkerbell. If you don't believe in it, it'll fade and fade and maybe even disappear. No room for any skepticism, scrutiny, discretion, just acceptance. Denise, if you can accept that then you're extremely naive. I don't know how or why I could put a finer point on it.

Also, I personally have never heard M shun the futher analysis of anything. Mostly what I have heard him say is to ask any question you want and make sure you feel completely clear of questions and comfortable before receiving K.

What a crock!! YES, ask any question you want -- before you're initiated -- but don't think for a moment that you're going to get any answers. Ask the questions to get them out of your system. The questions are all senseless, directionless, just the product of your mind, that's all. There's nothing to answer because, don't forget, this isn't a 'mental' thing.

Come on, Denise! Wake up, girl! The program here is anti-mind. If you doubt that for a second, just try to follow up with Maharaji on any questions you might have gathered since finding this site. Go ahead. Ask him and don't compromise your curiosity. Try that even once and you'll learn soon enough what you already know but don't want to admit.

He has said he wants people to try everything else they want to first and if nothing quenches their thirst, to come back and give K a try. I can relate, because that's what I did. Anyway, he SEEMS open to people questioning to me.

What in the world tells you that he seems open to questioning? Is it all the emailed questions he's posted? The various interviews he's given people outside his cult? What?

Denise, that is one absolutely screwy thing to say. What's with you, anyway? If, based on those quotes above, you think that Maharaji's not discouraging thought about knowledge, good old-fashioned intellectual analysis, then I think you're simply being impervious to reason. There is no way to rationally overcome the fact that he's discouraging thought when he says:

With Knowledge you don't have to ask questions. Even if you don't ask any questions you'll get all the answers you need. Intellectuals spend ages cooking up impossible questions, but what's the good of a question no-one can answer?

None.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:06:39 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: great post
Message:
Jim, this was an excellent post with many really great points refuting common cult rationales. Even I was thinking the mango analogy was pretty good. But of course it works for all sorts of things...ever try to explain what childbirth feels like to someone who has not had a baby?

But we can analyze and understand a lot scientifically about contractions, mangos, and I think knowledge as well. There are real physiologic reasons why contractions hurt, organic chemists know tons about the biochemistry of taste and flavor, as do vintners...hey what is the word for wine science again...and why the techniques produce the feelings and sensations they do is subject to scientific analysis. I have read somewhere an analysis of the techniques and why they produce the sensations they do.

I think refuting the 'you can't describe it' as a rationale for why it is above scutiny is excellent. Especially bringing out the limitations of language. I saw some show about how an aboriginal child can tell one rock from another where all the rocks look the same to us, because that child was brought up with a language that developed in a culture in which knowing one rock from another, and describing and labeling the nuances of his physical environment, was a prerequisite for survival. That child could describe the qualities of a rock, just as a vintner probably could describe a mango to another vintner with precision.

Anyway, I have to applaud you for this analysis.
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 05:20:02 (EST)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Denise and Jim
Subject: Sorry Jim...
Message:
....you can't win 'em all!

Thanks, Denise

Mel
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Date: Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:06:08 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: You're right, Mel
Message:
You CAN'T win 'em all. In this case I trusted Denise with a little more objectivity than she's apparently capable of. Oh well.
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 18:22:47 (EST)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Not that it matters, but
Message:
does anyone know why we stopped using barragons? ( I think I still have one somewhere at my parents' house if they haven't found it and thrown it out.)

All I remember is a meeting in New York, I think White Plains or something similar sounding, in 1986 in which M had a K review for about 6 hours or so one day and told us not to use any kind of prop when meditating. I guess no one liked and/or listened to that agya (my new word), because now he tells us to use pillows.

Anyway, what did M think was wrong with barragons? I thought it worked pretty well, but being the good premie I was, I listened to my Master's agya and abandoned it.
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 18:30:38 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: You'll have to ask him
Message:
Denise,

If only Maharaji wouldn't have died in that tragic helicopter accident that also took his close friend and advisor, Bob Mishler, we'd be able to ask him this and so many other questions. Yes, I know, the answer's inside and everything. And Maharaji's always with us. Of course he is. But sometimes, I just wish there was an actual living master we could ask these things. Oh well.
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 19:40:37 (EST)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What? (nt)
Message:
What?
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 20:05:19 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Denise
Subject: What? (nt)
Message:
Look, I knew the truth would come out soon enough.

It was the same with the Beatles. Why is George going, 'Paul, Paul, Paul' on 'While my Guitar Gently Weeps' and why is Paul the only one barefoot on the Abbey Road album cover?

We know the answer. Paul died back in the sixties. Every Beatle fan worth his salt knows that.

Yes, Maharaji died and they've had one of his reletives to stand in for him all these years. Why do you think things changed so much? Isn't it obvious. And if you play the song by Rich Neal, 'Dance, Dance, Dance' on the original tape, BACKWARDS then you'll get the hidden message and the truth of what really happened.
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 00:07:56 (EST)
From: Marlboro Man
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes I remember ol Bob in '73'
Message:
Very smart guy, drank a lot of coffee and Dr Pepper, could he talk! A jerk though, when one on one with him. To bad about the crash, don't wish that on anyone.
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 19:38:40 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Not that it matters, but
Message:
Hi Denise,
You're not supposed to ask stuff like that. I mean it's okay here because it's a perfectly reasonable question. I still use a barrogan, myself... shit, I nearly killed myself to get these silly techniques and the dumb stick I lean on. I'm not going to change it all now just because someone snaps their fingers.

Isn't it funny how all those years ago, I just would have chucked my barrogan because of maharaji's whim. I think it probably is just a whim he had, like so many of his other directives. Of course, you may never get the chance to find out what his thinking was.

But the barogan is just a small thing. Think about all the people who lived in the ashram for years, and they don't even know why maharaji closed them.
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 19:45:42 (EST)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Closing Ashrams
Message:
He didn't give a reason? And noone asked?
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 20:00:25 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Closing Ashrams
Message:
I don't know specifically that no one asked. But the ex-ashram premies that post here don't know. Everyone's been asking for a couple of years now, and no one's offered MAHARAJI'S explanation. Has anyone out there ever maharaji's explanation about why the ashrams were closed in '83?
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 20:02:20 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Closing Ashrams
Message:
Denise,

My post above was faceitious. I was trying to make the point that, for a teacher, Maharaji's pretty damn unaccessible (i.e. he might as well be one of them there 'past perfect masters' he used to talk about so much). Really, your question's a perfectly reasonable one but just try to get a straight answer from Maharaji. It just ain't gonna happen. And if, by some great fluke, you did get an answer it'd be either flippantly dismissive of your question, vague and superficial or entirely beside the point. And if, even then, you hadn't given up but tried to follow through and get a reasonable, straight answer from Maharaji, he wouldn't play along. He obviously feels that he's far beyond having to answer to any common human mind, like yours for example.

As for the ashrams, I was already gone by about a year when he closed them so I can't say with absolute certainty, but I do get the impression that he offered only a fast, cursory explanation. Something to the effect of they weren't really 'working' or something. Again, we're not talking about a situation where someone with an amazing responsibility to a large group of people -- someone who, in fact, had implored them to trust them with their lvies and, indeed to surrender those lives to him -- made an extremely important and possibly traumatic decision about these people and did all he could to explain and account ot them for it. No, we're not talking about that.
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 20:32:17 (EST)
From: Perfect Premie
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Jim
Subject: Closing Ashrams
Message:
Look, you've missed the point, both of you, Denise and Jim. You are not in a position to question what Maharaji does or why. Haven't you understood ANYTHING?

If Maharaji says don't use a beragon - throw it away immediately. If he says that all the ashrams close - don't even think about asking him why. The thoughts that run around in your mind have no consequence. Surely that is the first lesson which you should have learned at the start!

If anyone questions the master then they have missed the point entirely. You cannot follow a master and also question him. The two are incompatable. You gave up questioning Maharaji when you became his devotee. Therefore, anything he does and says is beyond question or critisism.

If he says he's the Lord one day and then tells you you're stupid for thinking he's God the next day - you cannot critisise that or even think that it's a contradiction. It is not for you to have such disharmonious thoughts. Remember, you are dust. Dust at the lotus feet. What right have you to question the greatest incarnation of God ever, come with more power than ever before.
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 20:42:02 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Perfect Premie
Subject: Closing minds
Message:
Yeah, that pretty well sums it up. The basic game was indeed 'ask your questions, get them out of the way. Once you've learned to trust Maharaji, you'll never have to ask another thing. So if you're asking, you're obviously not trusting.'
I think Maharaji's never forgotten this plan and still gets offended when premies ask questions in such a way as to imply that they deserve answers. In fact, premies that exude that expectation are considered lacking in humility (i.e. love) and insincere.
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 20:52:28 (EST)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Perfect Premie
Subject: Hole in the Bucket Story
Message:
This reminds me of the story M has told on several occasions about a student approaching a Master and asking for K. The Master tells the student that he must watch the Master without saying anything and then he will receive K. The master then keeps putting a bucket full of holes into a well and pulling it out as the water all runs out. After he does this for a while, the student can't stand it anymore and starts thinking that a master who can't even take water out of a well can't have anything to teach him so he says something. The master then doesn't give him K because he questioned him. Don't remember all the details, ...guess I was too blissed out at the time.

See, if you question, you can't have Knowledge!!!!!!

Y'all should know how serious I am about this.
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 21:17:05 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Hole in the Bucket Story
Message:
Good observation, Denise!!

That 'bucket' story was one of the 'drips' for me, too. What is says is, indeed, that questionning the diretions and actions of the Master is wrong. More than wrong, it shows that your consciousness is in the dark ages and that there's really no point anyone trying to enlighten you about anything. And that that applies to ANY questionning - even questions which are based on solid face validity (like that it's better to get water out of a well with a bucket without holes).

And then MJ has the audacity to say that on this path one should follow one's OWN heart. Well, my heart wanted someone I could talk to. Someone who was happy to engage with questions. Someone with whom I could have an adult to adult relationship. Even if my ideas were off the wall, I really wanted the opportunity to talk things out.

Well, I have teachers now. They're friends, who are more than happy to thrash out a topic with me. We don't always agree, and that's okay - they don't expect me to subjugate my understanding to theirs (and I'm learning they don't have to subjugate their understanding to me :-)). They're people who put their ideas into a public forum, through the media, through books, through movies, through public talks. They don't ask me to accept their ideas as gospel.

I like it better this way.

Diz
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 21:28:34 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Hole in the Bucket Story
Message:
Denise,

You don't know how bad it was. It wasn't enough to avoid all difficult questions or act in any way even slightly independent. I mean, for any but the most marginal premies, those things were entirely verboten. We wouldn't even allow ourselves to think of them.

But it was worse. We even tried to somehow expunge our 'darkness' (i.e. doubts, questions, selfishness) from our subconscious. Don't ask how but we did. It was the classic fear that Maharaji could 'see right through' us. There was no hiding and, more particularly, there was no hiding 'bad' thoughts.

Was this a bit of a narrow ledge we found ourselves on? You bet. However, we took comfort in the old 'razor's edge' metaphor and also in the satsang Maharaji kept giving us to ensure we kept the torque up.

We did this for years.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 04:18:36 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Core of abuse system
Message:
Thinking and reflection has been allowed since, I've been a witness of this, and involved in it too.

EV has become such a huge organization that you had to think about what m was saying, at least since the end of the 80s.
I would say that thinking has been encouraged. The BM's very much relying on a lot of people and organizations to run his show.

BUT

there was a frame that he's been defining himself during those organizers' & instructors' conferences, that used to last for days and sometimes weeks.

And he would regularly send some of his assistants to check that everything was right.
The problem is that the whole system has become such a nonsense, for so many reasons, the main one I think being HIS OWN PARANOIA (when he sets various sytems to achieve the same thing, and huge security systems).

So what's happening now is that if you really start to get involved in EV for service (or whatever reason), you're really confronted to nonsense, m's and organizations' stupid ideas, and it's very painful to deal with this. I've been confronted to this during all my last years of involvement, and the only cure for this was days and days of darshan, like what's now happening on the lands.
And I know it was the same for any other person involved in EV, as we used to discuss this. We were involved in nonsense, and were in constant need for darshan. That's been a torture for me, when I now think about it.

INVOLVEMENT IN EV IS A TORTURE

IF m stops his long conferences on the lands, he won't have anybody to serve him in EV, and no slave to serve him at home.

But m is not an idiot and he's also realized it. That's why EV is now into having seminars with professionals. Otherwise there won't be anybody left to do service. The professionals running those seminars are accomplices of m's abuse system. I guess these guys are no idiots, and they can see how bad the premies feel about themselves and about what they're involved in.

I hope some of them are reading this. And I also hope that some premies who've been participating in those seminars understand how crazy the whole thing is, that there is no spirituality involved in this, and that it's time to think about their sanity.

They are not the first one being abused, and there is a way out.
And nothing to lose.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 07:50:01 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: EV torture
Message:
Jean-Michel, There is a strange and unique experience available when one makes a decision about anything at Elan Vital. I often wondered if any of the premie posters on this page have been involved in service at all. Talk about watching the water come out of the holes in the bucket. Course if thats the case why don't we keep our water (dollars) in our pockets.

Speaking of the bucket story, Interested in receiving knowledge anyone? Listen to the bucket story. It speaks volumes about involvement in knowledge and M. Get this. Mahrji says get your questions answered before receiving knowledge. And one of his answers is the bucket story. Which says if you want knowledge you have to be able to stand silently while I do something absolutely foolish and inane.

That means no more questioning for the rest of your life.

It's a HUGE bet. A total LONGSHOT bet. A CRAZY bet because I see absolutely no evidence that anyone has yet won this BET!
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 09:24:45 (EST)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Seminars
Message:
What seminars with professsionals are you referring to? I've been attending videos and at least somewhat paying attention to what's been happening since about 6 months ago, but never heard of these. Could it be they are just in England? Or France?
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 10:31:18 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Seminars
Message:
They've been regularly happening for more than 3 years now, but for EV's managers ONLY !

This is secret stuff !

I've been part of one, and I've heard of many others happening in most of the 'important' countries.

M himself started this 4 years ago in Amaroo. TOP SECRET. The basic idea is to improve teamwork ....
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 10:47:49 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Let me get this straight...
Message:
are you saying they are paying consultants to do things like Total Quality Management...teambuilding and the like for the bigwigs?
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 12:14:39 (EST)
From: selene
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: Let me get this straight...
Message:
HAHHA!!!
Maybe he got one of the Landmark Forum/EST guys to do the training, just like our organisation did.

Too funny Helen
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 12:44:37 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: Yes dear!
Message:
And some very expensive ones!

about 1000$/day, maybe more....

I'VE BEEN PART OF THE 1ST ONE IN FRANCE !
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 12:49:55 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Yes dear!
Message:
Didn't anyone even SEE the incongrity of this? Needed an outside (I assume) consultant to help everyone work together better, when he product he is pushing is supposed to be perfection?
I don't get it. That's my problem. I never did understand. I think it goes something like this: Knowledge and M are meant to be an internal experience, it doens't make your job better or your relationship better or doesn't solve any problems in 'THIS' world, it is just a chance for you to go inside and experience peace.

Do I finally have it right JM? Do I?
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 12:55:17 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Yes dear!
Message:
That's been VERY helpful for me to realize this consciously.

When you're part of that kind of training, you realize what's really going on.

The BM has really lost the control, if he ever had some!

What I still don't fully understand is HOW those premies who've been part of these seminars keep coping with all this BS. I'm sure we'll have a lot of feedback one day...
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 13:18:24 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: He's a bloody idiot
Message:
What's he trying to achieve? Management consultants to manage what? Propogation? Maharaji spin doctoring? Back in the early seventies we did all that for him and propogation was at its highest then.

If he's got an ever decreasing number of devotees then these management consultants won't help. They will take his money though and they will bring in some nice new concepts for Maharaji and Elan Vital to play around with. But everyone knows that you've got to appeal to the masses, the ordinary Joe Blows to market something successfully. Maharaji's just throwing away all the money that premies are giving to him for his gold toilets and expensive toys. How do they feel about THAT.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 13:30:30 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: He's a bloody idiot
Message:
and even more:

they even pay more and more outside lawyers consultants to check everything they're doing ... about 10% of EV's total budget now goes into this. The whole thing is SO fuc*** up!

It was in 97's budget anyway.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 18:53:53 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Absolutely hilarious
Message:
Just brilliant, straight out of Life with Brian.

Beautiful Jean Michel.

Says it all really, doesn't it, the death of a dream. Would be dead interesting to know how those old timers rationalize it.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 13:24:35 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: No you haven't
Message:
Do I finally have it right JM? Do I?

Do, and we never will, because

THIS KNOWLEDGE CAN'T BE UNDERSTOOD WITH MIND,

and nobody will ever understand m's lila.

The other option is that k is not what the 'master' says it is, there is nothing like lila, k and lila really do not exist, the whole thing is bogus, and the BM is a fuck*** charlatan.

Sorry for those still believing in him!
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 14:35:55 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Selene & JM
Subject: At least he's admitted there's
Message:
a problem!
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 13:47:36 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: this is just laughable
Message:
if there is anyone who already has the BS these people sell at such high prices down pat it is premies. The experiences I have had and heard about with these teambuilding consultants always reminds me of premies. Examples are the use of buzzwords that make you part of the in crowd. You know, like being the first one to know that we no longer say 'program' it is now 'festival' oops now 'event'.....people feeling that because they can afford a nice suit and oh my...pick one out...and oh my...look damn good in it...oh well he MUST be so important and KNOW something. Talking for hours in circles and saying NOTHING. Dilbert always reminds me of premies.

I cannot believe he paid people to teach premies the one thing they already know.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 13:50:47 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: this is just laughable yes!
Message:
You got it g's mom! I went through some of that training here at work. the 'in' crowd gets to start talking in the new jargon and bestow tidbits to us lowlifes who don't merit this great training.
Our consultant charged 150 an hour, but believe me it added up her was and is here hours and hours. I remember him from est.

If M's product worked they'd be the ones out there doing the training. what a joke indeed.
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 21:29:13 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Denise
Subject: Hole in the Bucket Story
Message:
Now I'm posting under my usual name and not Perfect Premie. You have to understand, Denise, that many of us here followed that line of reasoning for over a decade. We gave Maharaji the benefit of the doubt and didn't question all the crazy things that were happening.

Read some of the articles written in the ashram section of the Truth About Maharaji web site. And some premies have followed the above line of reasoning for over 25 years!

But where has it got them? Nowhere or certainlt not where they expected to be. It's a nice idea, surrendering completely to a supreme master. The only trouble is, no such animal exists. But there's a good reason for that.

There is no fixed path through life that someone can lay down for others to follow. We are too individual for that to be. I waited until my life was all but wrecked before I resumed control of it again.

In truth, Maharaji didn't know what to do with all these sincere devotees he aquired in the seventies. He couldn't handle the responsibility which he had taken upon himself through his desire for wealth and power. He lost control of a big army of devotees. They were all ready to do anything he asked. But he was too flakey. He got tired of his own confidence trick and couldn't face his devotees any more.

So he abandoned them. That's what really happened.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 19:12:22 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Perfect Premie
Subject: Say what?
Message:
PP: REAL masters (e.g. professors, PhD's, professionals, etc) ALL get asked lots of questions. Their hypothesis are ALWAYS questioned, their thoughts are ALWAYS scrutinized, their words are ALWAYS checked and double-checked. Why should M be any different? Just because he says he's god (greater than god)? Gimme a break!
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 20:19:08 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Mike
Subject: Say what?
Message:
Check Perfect Premie's email address. It's me in one of my many disguises. Sorry if I caused some confusion but I was just saying what a perfect premie would believe and what we were taught when I received the big K.
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 09:31:45 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Funny!
Message:
Sir: Sorry, I didn't see that.... he he he. After I posted, I realized that it was probably an ex that did it. :-)
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 23:15:49 (EST)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: If it doesn't matter....
Message:
....then why do you ask?
unless you want to focus, and have us all focus with you, on that which is irrelevant in understanding what m and his cult are about, today, as we speak.
Denise, why do I get the impression that you would rather have us discuss such topics as, let us say
'Profound Premie Experiences,Drinking CHARANAMRIT in the 70's'
as opposed to, let us say,
'Maharaji's Role in the Molestation of Innocent Children'
????
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 02:16:21 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: not fair to Denise...
Message:
I think you must have missed her post about how deeply my Jagdeo post affected her. When I read what she wrote I felt bad that it caused her so much pain; but glad she took it so seriously. I am worried what you just posted may be hurtful to her in light of that and you might want to read the archives a little for it.

This IS serious stuff we discuss here. If you read enough of them Denise's post reflect that she does know that. I can see where she seems a little trivial sometimes but I do not see that as unhealthy. Being a premie and facing these huge issues was as I recall terrifying when I was trying to break free. If her posts reflect a little levity here and there ...well...we all do that. Sorry to make the assumption you are on your way out Denise. I just see it as a logical conclusion to a fair examination of the facts by any one who looks at them.

Anyway, after posting and reading about heartwrenching things maybe a person wants to read about the history of the barragon. I can see it.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 02:49:23 (EST)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: not fair to Denise...
Message:
Sorry, if my post to Denise offended you.
Yes, I did hear her express her feelings of great pain that innocent children had been molested.
However, I do not recall any posts from Denise which reflected any feeling of great pain on her part, that Maharaji could have done something to stop it, but didn't.
Somehow, there's a connection not being made, without which this entire matter has no relationship to m.
And I believe it does.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 02:55:41 (EST)
From: Marshall
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: The reason I heard
Message:
I asked this question to my mom not long ago and the reason she gave me, although I'm not sure if she heard this from big m, an initiator, or just figured it out herself, is that 'some premies' were getting to attached to their barragons and were making to big a deal out of the whole thing, like carrying them around in special little cases, making a big production out of assembling and disassembling them, etc., which was supposedly distracting people from focusing on what was really important about meditating and knowledge. I think at the same time you were supposed to stop covering yourself with a blanket too. I actually know what she means, in a way, because I remember watching with bemusement as premies made a big production with their special little favorite meditation blanket, and then getting their state of the art earplugs in, and then getting themselves into one of those nifty lotus positions, all serious and intense, and winding up looking idiotic wrapped up in a blanket like a mummy or something.

The reason she gave me for big m closing the ashrams is that, once again those bad 'some premies' were getting too dependent on the ashrams and were 'hiding out' there, and it had just become like an unhealthy situation or something, so he had to close them.

I think his real reason for getting rid of barragons is that they were kind of 'weird' and might turn off potential new devotees. It was all just part of the streamling of his image. Barrogons and ashrams, along with arti trays, holy breath, holy bath water, prashad, darshan, etc. became sort of embarrasing and needed to be jettisoned in order to make way for the new and improved knowledge lite we see today. It just shows that the comfort of his devotees was less important to maharaji than his image.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 03:44:22 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Marshall
Subject: The reason I heard
Message:
'....It just shows that the comfort of his devotees was less important to maharaji than his image.'

Good post. In addition he wanted to diassociate himself with other groups in India. The beragon is used and has been used for centuries. He wanted to be different.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 10:36:06 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Marshall
Subject: The reason I heard
Message:
The most common question I receive when someone makes a weird face upon seeing the barrogan in my room is, 'What do you do, sit on it?'
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 03:17:17 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: What I remember
Message:
is that m used to say that beragon had become such a trip that it was better to practice without them.

My idea is that it was a PR problem: wherever you would see premies at that time, you would see their wooden leg sticking out of their pockets. And that was weird. Almost like a cult where members would need this all the time.
And he also used to say that some (?) premies wouldn't practice without it, when it was not a problem, or maybe it was a problem for him when he started realizing that not so many premies were still practicing after ashrams closure and the end of the DLM-DUO trip. Beginning of k lite?
That's what I remember. Middle of the 80s worldtours k reviews...
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 02:03:50 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: No baragons--Here's why.
Message:
MJ put the kibosh on baragons because of their cultish nature. As bags are searched at airports, these props raise eyebrows. This was one of his endeavours to make premies seem more normal.
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 14:47:36 (EST)
From: Student
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Libman
Message:
As a premie, I browse this site occasionally. I gave up regular posting last year when I ran out of time fending off all of the sticks and stones.

I enjoyed your 'full of myself' description. It's certainly a more likeable and less damaging experience than being full of anger, fear, or drugs. Of course I come here for a dose of that adrenaline anyway. I consider it a weakness.

You ask if Maharaji treats people as if they are irrelevant or expects them to be puppets. In 27 years I have never once felt irrelevant or used. Blissfully hypnotized maybe, but that's how I feel during a climax too. Never 'irrelevant' because I've been taught and then shown that I am complete and to actively appreciate my life through my own completeness. Never 'used ' because I enjoy what I do, both for Maharaji and for myself. Never resentful because I don't care how posh Maharaji's surroundings are. At least I feel good about what he is accomplishing with money, unlike the rulers of the world powers.

Ex-premies question what he is 'accomplishing.' Of course they do. If I feel good and I like what he offers and they don't, what are they getting out of it? From Maharaji I get constant reminders to get 'full of myself'. Reminders that I actively seek from him because they are not tempered with guilt trips. I'm never chastised for 'straying,' only welcomed back. And back to what? No one knows if I'm 'back' but me. Practicing Knowledge is the point. Asking for funding is necessary, but not the point in MY interpretation. It definately is for others. But I won't change my interpretation to please them. Apparently that's what makes us premies so 'blindly led,' by our own desire to be 'full of ourselves' as often as possible.

If you can be 'full of yourself,' and know it isn't just pride, fear, anger, doubt, or drugs, then more power to you. Me, I find those other things interfere all too often (not drugs anymore). That's why I appreciate a Master to help me see them for what they are a lot faster. Thing is, the 'mind' is the source of those things. That's where those quotes come from that Jim will so readily share. My intelligence, my critical thinking...those things I need to accomplish what I want to accomplish, but they sure get in the way both when practicing Knowledge and when having sex. After all, who wants to be analyzing arguments or thinking about the checkbook during such times?

27 years learning from Maharaji...I'll be thirty soon.
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 15:49:09 (EST)
From: A drop-out (Selene)
Email: None
To: Student
Subject: Libman
Message:
First, before you think of sticks and stones I want to sincerely thank you for one of the more intelligent and readable posts here from the opposing view. It may be the full moon I don't know but this is a welcome relief.

27 years learning from Maharaji...I'll be thirty soon.

What on earth are you saying? You received K when you were 3???
Of course, I received K when I was born. It's part of being human. Too bad i thought I needed a guru but such were the times.

I haven't read Libman's post so I can't get into detail about what you are answering.

I've been taught and then
shown that I am complete and to actively appreciate my
life through my own completeness.


Me too. I was shown that, but not from M. From learning how to cope, from trial and error. From life I have learned to appreciate myself as well as to stay away from those that harm me.

If you feel sticks and stones attacking you when you come here then don't. I am certainly not trying to do that.
I am however, pointing out that all the stuff you give M credit for is there, anyway. For those of us here, we had to learn it away from a 'Teacher'. I am reminded of that awful cliche, those who can do , those who can't teach. ( I don't usually agree, but there are cases)
Oh yeah, and most teachers don't make a very large salary. M seems to make a hell of a lot of money at it. World rulers? yeah there's good and bad ones. The president makes around 300,000 and year. Plus graft and corruption money maybe. and M??? well, we don't know, do we? One million a year? I think that may be a conservative guestimate..
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 16:01:55 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Student
Subject: classic premie blindspot
Message:
My intelligence, my critical thinking...those things I need to accomplish what I want to accomplish, but they sure get in the way both when practicing Knowledge and when having sex. After all, who wants to be analyzing arguments or thinking about the checkbook during such times?

Student,

Please don't put down your 'intelligence' or 'critical thinking' quite so fast. First, I agree, there's no point thinking about your checkbook or arguments when you're having sex. But who ever said otherwise? No one. What people have said is that premies operate under a strong taboo against thinking about knowledge properly.

Take sex, for example. When you're enjoying it, you're obviously not going to be 'studying' it at the expense of your feelings. That would be a drag. Of course it would. But that doesn't mean you can't study it othertimes.

Science has learned a lot about sex, hasn't it? We understand how and why it functions biologically. We can study its human variety as well as it sfunction in all sorts of other species. We can learn a whole lot about sexual strategizing, again both within and without our own species. We can also study the social history of sex through various times and cultures. We can study various tricks and fads people have used to enhance or ritualize sex throughout time. And, if nothing else, we can talk, write, think and fantasize about it endlessly. All of this goes into the hopper called your brain and directly impacts on the actual acitivity. The mind affects the act which affects the mind. Right?

So why can't so-called 'knowledge' be like that? Why doesn't Maharaji want to get into a 'history lesson'? Why does he want premies to stay in the dark about such things as:

1) where the techniques came from. Who first collected the four he teaches and presented them as a package? Is it true that as many as nine used to be taught at Prem Nagar as recently as 1970? What happened to the rest? Who decided? Does anyone ever do the other five? What are they like? Are there more? Are there any good variations on the ones m's selling (sorry, 'giving')? When did the 'hour in the morning, hour at night' idea start? How? And how about m's edict to not do them together? What's that about? Is that his idea?

2) where the 'master' came from. What about that little lineage m's put up on his page? Is even that small chain uncontroversial or are there alternative versions? What about Shri Hans' competitors? What about Satpal? What about all the other Indian gurus out there? How can m be considered 'the' master when the guy next door might very well be a perfectly fine guru kind of thing too? Wouldn't that make m 'a' master? How many are there? m once said there can only be one in the world at a time. That's a fascinating idea, isn't it? Where's the follow-up? How does m know that? What does it mean? How 'realized' is a master anyway? Has m goten more 'realized' in, say, the last three years? When did he accomplish most of his 'spiritual' growth? How about his family? His brothers? Are they spiritually advanced like he used to say? A lot, a little? No, he was mistaken? What does it mean when a (sorry 'the') master's wrong about something? How much is he like/unlike regular people? And how could that be anyway? Was he different in the womb? What gives?

3) where life came from. Is there really a 'purpose' to it? Is tthere really such a thing as 'god realization'? Has anyone ever accomplished it? Has m? Is k a path or isn't it? If so, to where? How does m fit into the practice? Is there a special, spiritual connection between m and premies? What is 'Holy Breath' and why, if it was so important years ago, doesn't m still give it 'once in a lifetime' to new premies?

If knowledge were valid and this wasn't a cult, knowledge would indeed be the absolutely most interesting thing imagineable. People would indeed want to study and understand it, if only to appreciate it all the better. M, on the other hand, has put up an information embargo around the whole thing and ahs sold it on this one stupid argument, that you can't enjoy it if you're being an 'egghead' about it. Well, that's just nuts. Even sex researchers, I'm sure, can party. M's just blowing smoke.
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 17:24:11 (EST)
From: Student
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: classic premie blindspot
Message:
If sex is objectified and separated from heart and soul too much, you are only left with pornography. Try explaining that to middle schoolers in the Bible belt in a way that they and their parents will accept.

In pornography and promiscuity, what is lost? Conservative teaching used to be: don't do it because it is bad, dirty, and wrong. This generation does not accept that. There are other arguments: don't do it because it is dangerous or immoral. Still a better argument is needed.

If you had to persuade teenagers to save sex for marriage, what would you say? Do you understand why I make this analogy to Knowledge and the Master?
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 17:46:43 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Student
Subject: classic premie blindspot
Message:
If sex is objectified and separated from heart and soul too much, you are only left with pornography.

What a stupid thing to say! What is sex? Do you know? Well, actually, I'm sure you know a lot more than your ancestors did. For one thing, you understand that it's a biological process for procreation. Do you think that litle bit of wisdom makes it any the less exciting for you than it was for your ancient progenitors? I sure don't. In fact, doyou understand at all why sex developed in the first place? What are the advantages of sex, biologically speaking? What about its disadvantages? Are men and women hard-wired to respond differently to sex, either mentally or physically?

These are all questions that 'objectify' sex. They are certianly removed from 'heart and soul' yet they're not at all pornographic. But what about pornography anyway? Is it true that men and women respeond differently to visual stimulation? If so, why? Is it a cultural thing or something more inherent? Interesting questions, absolutely, and hardly pornographic.

But even on the social science plane, what are the effects of pornography in society? Is there such a thing as 'good' versus 'bad' pornography? What about the history of erotic art and story-telling? How have other cultures explored this stuff? Is there anything to learn from history here? Again, good questions, 'separated from heart and soul', yet not at all pornographic.

You premies have been sold one terrible bill of goods about the mind, that's for sure.

Try explaining that to middle schoolers in the Bible belt in a way that they and their parents will accept.
In pornography and promiscuity, what is lost? Conservative teaching used to be: don't do it because it is bad, dirty, and wrong. This generation does not accept that. There are other arguments: don't do it because it is dangerous or immoral. Still a better argument is needed.


Oh, I see, you do think it's worthwhile to discuss sex then. Fine, lets take it back to where we started. This was your analogy to knowledge, remember? Am I right in inferring that seeing as you think we should discuss varying attitudes to sex and search for better ways to relate to it (i.e. 'better arguments') that you also think we should discuss knowledge? If so, I'm in full agreement. Let's talk about it. But let's do it with a little freedom and candour, okay? None of this mind-numbing video shit. Let's really talk about it. If m wants to be the 'master' he better participate in the discussion too, don't you think? I mean, he's the guy that supposedly knows this hit, right?

If you had to persuade teenagers to save sex for marriage, what would you say?

I don't know. Why, by the way, would I 'have to'?

Do you understand why I make this analogy to Knowledge and the Master?

Nope.
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 19:40:45 (EST)
From: Stray Dawg
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: classic premie blindspot
Message:
Jim,

How come you don't get it? Student is trying to explain to you that Elan Vital and libido are one and the same thang.
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 21:58:41 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Student
Subject: sex blindspot
Message:
'bad, dirty, wrong' what do those words MEAN student?
'dangerous, immoral'
A new argument is needed?
Maybe you dont understand the old argument.
What is behind those words.
Using the word 'conservative' is also hollow and without meaning.

What are YOUR core understandings on the subject?

What did the 'oneness' say inside?
Maybe you will dismiss this as sticks and stones but
you would be incorrect on that one.
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 22:38:48 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Student
Subject: student's analogy
Message:
I can't believe that you would make that analogy. Sure, you ought to save your self for Maharaji, if you're sick enough to think that way. My advice outright to anyone is to do anything but that.

The experiments of David Lane (is that right?) are posted on this site or Jean-Michel's. They show conclusively that raj yoga experiences are not related to the 'master'. At least admit that other 'masters' might be capable of the same bestowing power.

Save myself for Maharaji? That is sick. The experience is self-driven, whether it is biological or not. Save yourself. Period. Why should someone else profit from your inner life? So that they can write the worst poetry ever written on your dollar?
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 21:46:03 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Student
Subject: student
Message:
Hello,

Having listened to the videos intently till 98, I ask you to tell
me where and in what talk he showed you about fear, anger,
drugs, doubt and lust.

You imply it is just dismissed as 'mind'. That is a darn
shallow analysis of the huge subject.

Your critical analysis is unneeded during meditation hour
and sex. Why? I use mine to help in the job.
If I just go blank while doing oral sex to my wife, she
can sure sense it. Or maybe you mean this, some intern say,
is giving you oral sex and you are thinking about this forum
and she is not able to get the damn job over with because
you are not focused. That is not the blame of having an
active critical thinking process, it is you using someone
callously. Sure blame your brain or mind, but it is you that
is cold. What is the reason for your coldness and your
constant freindship with anger,pride fear and doubt?

I guess as prem rawat says ' you are your own universe' is like
the galaxies, there is a black hole in the center of it.
Feeling your breath and sometimes looking at the back of your
eyelids trying to edge yourself sideways into the 'oneness'
hasnt worked for him. His father, or you.
What are you overlooking? Oh great self involved one.
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 22:03:42 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: student
Message:
Bill I agree wholeheartedly with you. Jeez, it's so infantile to want to be blissed out & obliterated all the time, eyeballs squeezed shut. Student: Why not just get drunk and have a buzz all the time? Or get a microchip planted in your briain so you can be climaxing all the time by yourself in your room. Where's the connection with other people?
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 07:57:54 (EST)
From: Stray Dawg
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: student
Message:
Arf!
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 11:56:55 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: G's Mom's Journeys entry
Message:
Since Forum I, G's Mom has posted about her experiences with Mahatma Jagdeo, and how Maharaji knew about it - and yet he did nothing to prevent further abuse by someone who was answerable only to his 'lord'.

Each time that she told her story, she was met with skepticism and hostility from premies who were unable and/or unwilling to accept that these things can and do happen in the real world - even in Maharaji's world.

She has now found the courage to submit the information in a Journeys entry, where it's far more visible and accessible than the archived posts are.

She did this knowing that there is a high probability that she'll face even MORE criticism and denials here in the Forum from people who prefer to not face facts about Maharaji's responsibility in these things having happened in the past. The unspoken part is that there is no guarantee that the same things aren't happening still (and being hushed up in the same way), and that seems to send those who have no way of knowing into tirades of denial.

She offers these reasons for her Journeys entry:
my intent is that the information is there when someone wants to refer to it. It is not my journey with DLM so much as it is the info about Jagdeo. My intent in posting it is to let people know Rawat did know and was in a position to stop something really bad and chose not to. And of course my intent is also if there are other former premie kids/teens who experienced this they will know they were far from alone, and maybe even some premie parents whose kids spent some time with Jagdeo might talk to them or even worse realize their kids were telling the truth way back when.

Thankyou for sharing this with everyone, G's Mom. Katie and I both have the greatest respect for you, and we're sure that you'll find WAY more support here from those who have no illusions than you'll find criticism from those who have no sensitivity.
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 13:45:34 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: G's Mom
Subject: G's Mom's Journeys entry
Message:
You have my love, my RESPECT, my admiration, my .....my..............................................

I am dedicating my day today to you...and to the others you knew and heard about...to those who will find this place and be inspired to reveal more of the truth, perhaps just from your own courage.

Miloochie

PS I don't know of an internet symbol like LOL or FOMCL (that are indicators of laughter) or even a down-turned smiley which can express that a post is being typed while the author is overwhelmed with real sorrow.

In lieu of, I'll add this ... ;-)

...for the 'light at the end of the tunnel' -- Another nice expression that hopefully hasn't also been corrupted/lost through the cult and its leader's three decades of silenced human abuses, including turning a blind eye on its own, known, child molestations.
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 14:25:09 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: G's Mom's Journeys entry
Message:
Well done!

I read a short story once set in an Orwellian world where there was a couple who were engaged to be married and because of the man's distrust of the system he betrayed it and his financee. His punishment was like the punishment of old like being put in stocks in public, but instead it was a modern version where he was in a glass booth with electrodes attached to his naked body and the public could come by and press a button to administer shocks. The story ends with his heart-broken and betrayed financee visiting him everyday during her lunch break and pressing the button.

I only wish that such punishment was available to child molesters as their crime is the most selfish and destructive because it steals the innocent joy that is the gift of childhood. I feel fortunate because my childhood was fairly happy and sometimes recalling that gets me through this complicated adult life.

You and others have been robbed of something quite precious and have confusion deeply instilled into your psyche. It is obvious that it took great courage to try to stop it and you did everything that you could.

Ultimately, the blame lays at the lotus feet of the criminally negligent Guru Maharaji, the Lord of the Universe.

This is an example of his caring for his premies?
Fuck you, Maharaji!
There is no excuse for this!
No lila, just sick and wrong!
Maharaji, why don't you post this journey on your fancy website and let people see the slimy underside of your world?

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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 14:47:42 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: one more thing, Maharaji
Message:
Maharaji,

Your organization paid for this beady-eyed, diseased little Typhoid Mary scumbag to travel around the world and to be treated like royalty while he practiced his pedophilia?

And you knew about it and didn't do anything other than shuffle him around?

And you demanded that we lure more people into your spider web, your tarpit trap? This pales in comparison to the mindfucks that you put adults through.

Where is Jagdeo now? Have you rewarded him with the Retirement Ashram in Thailand?
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 16:00:26 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: one more thing, Maharaji
Message:
I am so glad you have this evil twin side to you Barney.
This abuse stuff is making me sick. I mean it. I am thinking of how I innocently dropped my kids off at those festival day cares and never once thought more danger would come than maybe there
would not be enough attention paid.

Christ I think I have to log off now. Sometimes it's best to do laundry, go grocery shopping, put emotions on hold. Thank you G's mom for a courageous and difficult effort.
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Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 20:58:26 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: where IS he now?
Message:
Barnie,

Unfortunately, that's a really good question - where IS he now?? You premies out there, do you know? He was certainly around about seven years back. Staying in communities, with no warnings for premie parents.

I just wonder if the situation isn't still the same. If so, premie parents need to know.

G's mom, I don't know what to say. I think you acted in the best way you could. That was incredibly courageous: I have some idea, which almost certainly doesn't come near the reality, of how difficult it is for children who have experienced and/or become aware of sexual abuse in a situation where they hold no power, to raise the issue.

That must have been really crazy-making for you as a very young premie. It's so sad that 'abuse' so often has something to do with 'trust'. Betrayal of trust - of your deepest trust - cuts so deep. Having that betrayal denied adds more layers of hurt.

Where I live there has been a lot of exposure lately of child abuse in church situations. Very similar dynamics to what you describe in terms of denial, transfer of the problem. There is some progress however in getting the church to accept some responsibility for what happened. Which must be some relief for those who were betrayed. The other major exercise in this vien is the South African Truth and Reconciliation Council. The NAMING of what has been done wrong, the opportunity for victims to be heard, is powerful. Though never, of course, a 'cure' for what has been done.

The main challenge is to prevent abuse continuing in the present. I wonder how much the Catholic Church has done in THIS regard? Let alone MJ and his organisation. The very fact that everything MJ does is beyond question opens up huge POTENTIAL for abuse. So far as I know, there are no mechanisms for compliants in MJ's world, no attempt to implement the kinds of safeguards that COULD be put in place. Even with the best will in the world, safeguarding vulnerable people from abuse in a situation where an organisation or individual holds power over them, is not easy. Probably there is less risk now that ashrams are no more, and group gatherings are reduced. There are, however, still the Amaroos and Delhis, which bring people into a closed world, in fact there is probably a 'closed world' in many situations where people are into service. There are still individuals designated as spokes-people, who are subject to no checks other than those from MJ. This is a similar situation to that in countries with authoritarian systems. You may get a 'good' ruler, and abuse may be limited. But the very nature of the non-democratic system means that anytime someone not so good gets in control, abuse can flourish unchecked. Also, even the 'good' ruler cannot see to every corner of his kingdom. I don't know whether MJ would have sanctioned some of the 'heavy satsang' which people like Jagdeo laid on us. I know that this stuff really bit into me. Whether he sanctioned it or not, it happened. And perhaps still does. I can hear premies saying 'well, that's why he stopped premies giving satsang.' Not sure that's true - but it was a funny way to try to overcome the problems of a closed system - to close it even further! Now there's mostly just MJ - and what safeguards exist to see that HIS words and commands are not creating problems in people's lives?? A complaints mechanism? Regular feedback from premies? Exit surveys of exes?? Oh no, not needed, he's got it all right because....he's the Prefect Master.

'cuse the rave, g's mom. Hope all is well with you. Our thoughts are with you.

Love, Diz
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 02:33:13 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: all
Subject: thanks to all...
Message:
I read all your posts and your support and kindness are very much appreciated. You are good people.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 06:26:35 (EST)
From: KK
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: thanks to all...
Message:
You are very brave. Sending you warm thoughts.
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 02:16:52 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: thanks to you ...
Message:
Thank you for your entry. It is truly disgusting that MJ would let this man continue to be around children. All that premies are to him is a '$' sign.

I'm curious. How were you so smart to figure the whole thing out by yourself when you were indoctrinated at such a young age? You're amazing!
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 10:49:17 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: your question
Message:
In retrospect I am not so sure it was that I was so smart. When I was 16 I joined the ashram. I think part of what happened is that normal adolescent rebellion was a real aid to seeing DLM/Guru for what they were. At this point I had left home and my mom who I began to miss terribly. As anyone who has lived in an Ashram can attest it is a very strange environment full of contradiction and hypocrisy at every turn. Also Rawat chose that time to do his first Mala dance and that is when I recall my first thoughts of he is a fake being concious not subconcious and examnined rather than pushed away as the ravings of the evil mind. But I wonder had I not actually joined the ashram and become so unhappy there if I would have seen it as clearly. I really think that Rawat/DLM/Ashram had at this point become my parental figures and I was seeing them at this point as human rather than divine, like all teens do. But most teens do not have to deal with the idea their parents are not god, just that they are flawed humans, so they can grow to have an adult relationship with them.

Anyway, that is my theory. I know it makes me sound less wise beyond my years, but I think those factors really were in play.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 03:22:59 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: I saw him
Message:
last time in 95 or 96 during a program at the Delhi ashram. AND HE WAS SIITING IN THE MAHATMAS AREA, frontstage.

I was surprised he was still around cause I hadn't seen him for a very long time.
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Date: Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 23:39:04 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: any ideas on what to do?
Message:
What can we do?
I thought of carrying a poster and handing out leaflets on
jageo at the next m event.
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 02:47:59 (EST)
From: The Equalizer
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: ideas on what to do? Yes(NT)
Message:
No Text.....
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 09:34:02 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: G's Mom
Subject: Jagdeo
Message:
Thanks G's mom for bringing this into the light. It is disgusting that M has not turned him over to the police. Imagine, this guy is still honored by M! Absolutely disgusting.

M. should also have turned Fakiranand over to the police, after he was hitting a guy in the head with a hammer. Actually, he should turn himself over, for fraud. Period.
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 18:30:51 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: G's Mom
Subject: To G's Mom
Message:
G's Mom: After reading your chilling entry, I am at a total loss for words! As the father of a young girl, your words cut me to the quick. I am truly sorry that this happened to you and to your friends at the hands of that filthy piece of .... The simple fact that the 'other' filthy scum-sucking piece of .... (M) didn't do anything about it is frosting on the cake. I'm so glad that you survived and that you are with us, right here! THIS is something that his apologists cannot gloss over, that's for sure!
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Date: Tues, Mar 02, 1999 at 23:00:19 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mike/g's mom
Subject: To G's Mom
Message:
I agree, g's mom--you did a great job. I also admire you a lot for the actions you did take, in the passive premie culture back then! Mike I agree, how can M's apologists see their way passed this? Perhaps we should put it on the home page so that they see it first thing.
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