Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 42

From: Mar 13, 1999

To: Mar 23, 1999

Page: 2 Of: 5



JW -:- How Long An Ex? -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 19:54:48 (EST)
__JW -:- P - 10 yrs, Ex-16 yrs. (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 20:08:54 (EST)
____chr -:- p : 15yrs. ex : 11 yrs. (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 05:11:25 (EST)
____JHB -:- P - 25 yrs, Ex-2 Months. (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 10:53:46 (EST)
__Miloochie -:- How Long An Ex? -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 20:16:31 (EST)
____Miloochie -:- P - 9yrs. Ex-16 yrs (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 20:19:38 (EST)
__VP -:- Ex-Yearner -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 20:59:19 (EST)
__Rick -:- How Long An Ex? -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 21:04:34 (EST)
____John -:- Sorry pal, I really am! -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 22:38:37 (EST)
______Rick -:- Sorry pal, I really am! -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 01:19:08 (EST)
____JW -:- How Long An Ex? -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 14:44:21 (EST)
______Rick -:- How Long An Ex? -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 15:37:55 (EST)
__g's mom -:- ex for 20 years -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 21:49:14 (EST)
__Sir Dave -:- How Long An Ex? -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 22:08:48 (EST)
__peter howie -:- P - 13 Ex - 13 -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 22:55:21 (EST)
__Robyn -:- P-5yrs Ex-20yrs -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 22:58:50 (EST)
____bb -:- Oh, jeeze,I'm real quick -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 00:19:32 (EST)
______aoa -:- P 2 yr; Fence 20 yr; Ex 1 yr -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 01:14:37 (EST)
________barney -:- Help me! P=24 yrs. X=1 yr. -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 04:02:35 (EST)
__________gerry -:- P=1yrs. X=25 yr. -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 10:33:58 (EST)
______gerry -:- Oh, jeeze, I'm real quick -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 19:37:11 (EST)
________b-zerk -:- Oh, jeeze, I'm real quick -:- Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 01:01:12 (EST)
__L -:- How Long An Ex? -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 04:20:20 (EST)
__ex-mug -:- not long enough! -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 04:33:24 (EST)
__AJW -:- How Long An Ex? -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 04:40:08 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- How Long An Ex? -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 05:35:51 (EST)
____g's mom -:- OT....waldorf -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 10:56:22 (EST)
______eb -:- OT....waldorf -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 13:59:19 (EST)
________Runamok -:- OT....waldorf -:- Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 00:40:14 (EST)
______Jethro -:- G's MOM:Please READ -:- Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 03:21:23 (EST)
________g's mom -:- thanks Jethro -:- Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 11:33:39 (EST)
____JW -:- How Long An Ex? -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 12:48:58 (EST)
__dv -:- p-25 ex-1 nt -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 07:29:52 (EST)
__Mary M -:- How Long An Ex? -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 08:07:27 (EST)
____Way -:- How Long An Ex?+semantics -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 11:21:06 (EST)
______JW -:- Good Point -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 12:55:01 (EST)
________Rick -:- Shit's Creek -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 14:21:16 (EST)
__________Mike -:- Dammmmm! -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 17:52:48 (EST)
__Brian -:- How Long An Ex? -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 10:22:42 (EST)
____Runamok -:- How Long An Ex? -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 10:39:50 (EST)
__Jethro -:- How Long An Ex? -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 11:03:59 (EST)
____Jethro -:- CORRECTION :The Joe Cocker -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 11:07:34 (EST)
__Mike -:- P-14yrs, Ex-12yrs (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 11:05:04 (EST)
____Happy -:- p =10 yrs, ex = 17 yrs -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 11:35:07 (EST)
__Jerry -:- How Long An Ex? -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 12:26:12 (EST)
__Mickey the Pharisee -:- P - 4 yrs Ex - 22 yrs (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 12:44:45 (EST)
__eb -:- P = 23; Ex-P = 2.5 NT -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 13:40:58 (EST)
__Doney -:- P 15+5, Ex, 2 weeks -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 15:04:54 (EST)
____Robyn -:- P 15+5, Ex, 2 weeks -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 15:12:54 (EST)
______Mad scientist -:- M+478939+ 2+ +870ht -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 16:44:06 (EST)
________Prof John Hammond-Smyth -:- M+478939+ 2+ +870ht -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 22:09:54 (EST)
__________Mad scientist -:- M+478939+ 2+ +870ht -:- Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 10:06:09 (EST)
____________Prof John Hammond-Smyth -:- expansion of master, theorum -:- Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 11:58:17 (EST)
____Helen -:- P 15+5, Ex, 2 weeks -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 17:33:06 (EST)
______Helen -:- My #'s are.... -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 17:39:58 (EST)
________Robyn -:- My #'s are.... -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 18:00:25 (EST)
__________Zac -:- Pretty boney looking group! -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 22:39:54 (EST)
____________Helen -:- Pretty boney looking group! -:- Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 10:09:20 (EST)
____________beel -:- congradulations Zac! -:- Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 00:33:34 (EST)
____g's mom -:- Hi Doney... -:- Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 15:48:49 (EST)
__Katie -:- How Long An Ex? -:- Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 11:44:57 (EST)
____g's mom -:- I liked this thread... -:- Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 12:03:56 (EST)
____Roger Drek -:- Thanks Brian and Katie -:- Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 13:01:04 (EST)
____Zac -:- Thank you Katie and Brian -:- Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 15:30:47 (EST)
__Carol -:- P 26y(w/doubts,6y),ex 1y -:- Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 14:59:04 (EST)
____Helen -:- Hi Carol!! (nt) -:- Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 01:10:37 (EST)
______Marshall -:- P-1yr. EX-22yrs. -:- Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 02:17:01 (EST)
__HALIP -:- How Long An Ex? -:- Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 03:09:41 (EST)
____HALIP -:- To which I'd like to add... -:- Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 04:37:56 (EST)
______bill -:- To which I'd like to add... -:- Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 00:40:45 (EST)
________Helen -:- To which I'd like to add... -:- Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 17:20:11 (EST)
__Nim -:- How Long An Ex? -:- Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 04:23:37 (EST)
____Archer....Downunder -:- p=17yrs ex=8mths -:- Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 09:12:24 (EST)
______Marshall -:- p=17yrs ex=8mths -:- Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 13:02:07 (EST)
______Diz -:- Hi Archer + my dates -:- Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 08:10:35 (EST)
________Archer -:- Recent defectors -:- Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 01:19:10 (EST)
__________Brian -:- Recent defectors -:- Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 07:43:07 (EST)
____Liz -:- How Long An Ex? -:- Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 21:18:57 (EST)

JW -:- Book/Knowledge Review -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 18:14:35 (EST)
__VP -:- Book/Knowledge Review -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 18:17:36 (EST)
____JW -:- Yes -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 18:20:51 (EST)
______Mike -:- Nice Review! -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 18:27:41 (EST)
________Miloochie -:- Nice Review! -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 19:19:09 (EST)
__________Mike -:- Good point -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 19:35:56 (EST)
____________Miloochie -:- I think we agree (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 20:23:08 (EST)
________Nim -:- Nice Review! -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 19:30:54 (EST)
__________JW -:- Nice Review! -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 19:38:28 (EST)
____________Nim -:- Nice Review! -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 19:47:20 (EST)
______________JW -:- Nice Review! -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 20:07:32 (EST)
________________Nim -:- Ok guys... my serve!! -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 01:08:31 (EST)
__________________Mike -:- Ok guys... my serve!! -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 10:27:19 (EST)
__________________JW -:- Good Points -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 15:13:44 (EST)
____________Mike -:- Absolutely right on, JW -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 19:54:51 (EST)
________Helen -:- Nice Review! -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 22:27:40 (EST)
__________JW -:- Helen, You are Very Funny! -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 18:03:13 (EST)
____________Helen -:- Helen, You are Very Funny! -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 19:41:12 (EST)
______________bill -:- Helen, You are Very Funny! -:- Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 00:40:00 (EST)
________________Helen -:- But i wasn't on meds b-4 -:- Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 10:20:15 (EST)
__L -:- The Pathology Orientation -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 19:44:46 (EST)
____JW -:- Thanks -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 13:24:08 (EST)

JW -:- Hassles of the Lord -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 16:39:04 (EST)
__Zac -:- Hassles of the Lord -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 16:53:57 (EST)
____JW -:- Hassles of the Lord -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 17:09:30 (EST)
______Zac -:- Hassles of the Lord -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 17:42:21 (EST)
________JW -:- Hassles of the Lord -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 17:49:07 (EST)
__________Zac -:- Shit, Don't get me started -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 18:30:23 (EST)
____________JW -:- David Smith -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 18:41:31 (EST)
______________Zac -:- David Smith -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 20:23:40 (EST)
________________JW -:- David Smith -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 20:31:31 (EST)
____________JW -:- Marc Lerner -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 18:47:16 (EST)
______________Billy -:- Marc Lerner -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 07:31:45 (EST)
________________Runamok -:- Marc Lerner -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 10:54:59 (EST)
________________JW -:- Marc Lerner -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 13:05:17 (EST)
__Mike -:- Radio-Salami -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 17:03:30 (EST)
____Brian -:- Radio-Salami -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 21:10:35 (EST)

Miloochie -:- For VP...Self-'Knowledge' -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 15:22:28 (EST)
__VP -:- MY experience of 'Knowledge' -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 17:19:57 (EST)
____Miloochie -:- My EX-perience of 'meditation' -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 18:47:01 (EST)
______Mike -:- May I join in? -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 19:03:45 (EST)
________Miloochie -:- May I join in? -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 19:57:06 (EST)
________Jerry -:- May I join in? -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 22:10:11 (EST)
__________Mike -:- Water, too! -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 11:33:52 (EST)
____________Jerry -:- And Robyn! -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 13:11:07 (EST)
______VP -:- My EX-perience of 'meditation' -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 20:44:31 (EST)
________L -:- My EX-perience of 'meditation' -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 17:54:11 (EST)
________bill -:- My EX-perience of 'meditation' -:- Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 14:43:40 (EST)
____Nil -:- MY experience of 'Knowledge' -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 18:04:44 (EST)
______Jerry -:- Save yourself the grief, Nil -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 19:43:23 (EST)
________Nil -:- Save yourself the grief, Nil -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 20:57:25 (EST)
__________Jerry -:- Save yourself the grief, Nil -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 22:18:41 (EST)
__________Brian -:- You're a true inspiration, Nil -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 22:37:34 (EST)
____________Nil -:- I'm doing my best -:- Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 13:27:50 (EST)
______________Brian -:- You have very LOW standards -:- Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 14:17:15 (EST)
________________Nil -:- You have very LOW standards -:- Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 14:48:55 (EST)
______AJW -:- Nil experience of 'God' -:- Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 07:15:40 (EST)
______VP -:- MY experience of 'Knowledge' -:- Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 16:23:27 (EST)

AJW -:- Questions -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 11:51:05 (EST)
__Sir Dave -:- Answers -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 20:24:56 (EST)
____AJW -:- Answers -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 04:44:50 (EST)
______Sir Dave -:- Answers -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 11:26:04 (EST)
________g's mom -:- Answers -:- Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 10:14:50 (EST)
__Stevei -:- Questions -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 09:20:51 (EST)
____AJW -:- Questions -:- Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 05:37:35 (EST)

Stevei -:- New Asset Valuation(100M) -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 11:31:28 (EST)
__JW -:- New Asset Valuation(100M) -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 12:25:07 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- New Asset Valuation(100M) -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 12:38:00 (EST)
______Stevei -:- New Asset Valuation(100M) -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 12:56:51 (EST)
________Jean-Michel -:- New Asset Valuation(100M) -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 13:24:52 (EST)
__________Stevei -:- Out of Date -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 14:23:24 (EST)
__________JW -:- New Asset Valuation(100M) -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 14:30:34 (EST)
____________Stevei -:- Money Spinner -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 14:39:57 (EST)
____________Jean-Michel -:- I completely agree -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 17:23:49 (EST)
______________Zac -:- All of who? -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 17:51:00 (EST)
______Zac -:- But did you know! -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 13:16:00 (EST)
________John -:- John -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 16:00:12 (EST)
__________HALIP -:- Food and charts -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 17:01:41 (EST)
____________Mike -:- Food and charts -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 17:12:09 (EST)
________Jerry -:- But did you know! -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 16:07:27 (EST)
__________Zac -:- But did you know! -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 16:31:17 (EST)
____________Marshall -:- C.R.A.P. -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 17:05:20 (EST)
______________Zac -:- Thanks Marshall it feels good -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 17:47:26 (EST)
______________aoa -:- Scat Humor (wrt) C.R.A.P. -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 14:17:30 (EST)
________Stevei -:- STAR ENTERPRISES INC OF MIAMI -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 06:09:46 (EST)
____Nim -:- New Asset Valuation(100M) -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 19:08:33 (EST)
______Zac -:- New Asset Valuation(100M) -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 20:50:38 (EST)
________Nim -:- New Asset Valuation(100M) -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 23:17:59 (EST)
__________Stevei -:- THE SECRET -:- Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 09:29:51 (EST)


Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 19:54:48 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: How Long An Ex?
Message:
Can we collect some data here? I think this might be interesting.

Can each ex-premie who reads this, post how long he or she has been an ex-premie? I know some of us have been for a long time, and others are more recent. So, how about each person posting the date they started to consider that he or she was an ex. Maybe also say how long you were a premie too.

Premies, you are welcome to say how long you've been a premie. No discrimination here.

I'll start:

I received knowledge on March 8, 1973 and I consider myself an ex-premie as of March, 1983. So I was a premie for 10 years and I've been an ex-premie for 16 years.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 20:08:54 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: P - 10 yrs, Ex-16 yrs. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 05:11:25 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: p : 15yrs. ex : 11 yrs. (nt)
Message:
nt.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 10:53:46 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: P - 25 yrs, Ex-2 Months. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 20:16:31 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: How Long An Ex?
Message:
I received K in 1973/4. Can't remember exactly. I was in it good for 4 years straight, then dramatically tapered off thru to about 1983.

Went to one video meeting around 1990 (pure curiosity). Many negative effects of it have lasted right up until today. Much has changed since arriving here last month (Feb). I'm now revisiting all parts of it, purposely.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 20:19:38 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: P - 9yrs. Ex-16 yrs (nt)
Message:
Now I see what you want.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 20:59:19 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Ex-Yearner
Message:
This may not apply, but a yearner for knowledge(not technically in the aspirant program this long, of course) off and on since 1972 or 3 -around 24/25 years

Ex-Yearner- (for lack of a better term for this) since December 1997

Ex-Yearner- one year and three months (Is that about right, Selene?)

That is truly pathetic! Mr. Clarity, my ass.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 21:04:34 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: How Long An Ex?
Message:
My extrication wasn't so simple:
1977 - received knowledge
1979 - had a major loss of faith when I spent my last penny to get to Hans Jayanti and was turned away because I didn't have the admission fee
1980 - abandoned the cult after a friend deprogrammed me (but didn't abandon maharaji or knowledge)
1981 - had another major loss of faith during my divorce, after trying to get an appointment to speak to maharaji
1983 - satsang ended. Drip, drip, drip.
1986 - got into another crazy spiritual discipline called Right Use of Will. Maharaji and knowledge went on the back burner
1990 - went to a local introductory program in northern California. Felt nauseasous.
1991 - went to see maharaji in San Francisco. The auditorium was full so the overflow went into a banquet room to watch him on a video feed. No way. I went back to my car and drove home
1997 - found the Forum. Declared maharaji a gaping fucking asshole
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 22:38:37 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Sorry pal, I really am!
Message:
'1979 - had a major loss of faith when I spent my last penny to get to Hans Jayanti and was turned away because I didn't have the admission fee'

You know, maybe I was the ass hole who turned you away at the gate and made you go home. I remember I had that 'service' at one of those festivals in Kissimmee. God, it was so intense. We were under strict orders that everybody had to pay. I thought it was a real good test of my faith to have to look people in the eyes and tell them they could not go in. Oh, I just remembered what we had to tell them. We told them they had to ask for money from other premies. So, we made them beg for money.

I can't believe even now that I would have allowed myself to be used in such a way. The truth hurts.

Oh, p = 9 yrs, x = 17 (and growing each year!)
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 01:19:08 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Sorry pal, I really am!
Message:
Yeah, that's what I was told: To panhandle. I refused to do that, so I didn't get in. I'm sure I would've done the same thing in your position, and it would've hurt even more.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 14:44:21 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: How Long An Ex?
Message:
1979 - had a major loss of faith when I spent my last penny to get to Hans Jayanti and was turned away because I didn't have the admission fee

That was a hellish festival and I was so fried by the time it was over, that I think you were lucky to not be there. M gave that really, really heavy satsang about how we didn't even have the right to look at him, we were such miserable, meaningless dust. He was really pissed about something, I think it was finances and the plane project, which was in total disarray.

The Kissimmee festival in 1978 didn't seem as bad; not as intense. But 1979 was during the plane project and M was in dire need of money, or so he thought. I never thought that anyone was really turned away, although I guess I knew it at the time. I always thought the 'grace' would get anyone into a program and that M ultimately wouldn't exlude anyone because they didn't have money. I was obviously wrong.

Another reason money was so short in 1979 was that by that time there must have been about 500 ashram premies in Miami, whom the other premies had to finance to pay for their transport, food, etc. at the festival. Also, Kissimmee was a money-maker too, and was intended to be. I think the entrance fee was close to $100 each, which was really high in 1979, and that didn't count food, etc., which they also made money on. Plus, the cult travel agency made lots of money by doing all the flights, hotels, rental cars, etc. Remember in the communities we were obliged to use AIITA, later Travel Lite for all the travel and housing arrangements.

And then, of course, at that program M made over $200,000 by giving darshan. Rick, why should you be let in? Besides not paying the entrance fee, you obviously had no money to donate in darshan? It just didn't pay to have you there. I guess they weren't together enough yet to accept Visa and Mastercard at the entrance of the darshan tunnel, the 'tunnel of love.'

I did 'service' at the registration tables. I remember busloads of premies arriving when charter flights came in. It was hot and humid. I remember these ghost-white British premies arriving wearing woolens after flying all night to get there, and looking completely glazed, and their kids looked worse. It was a bizarre scene.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 15:37:55 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: How Long An Ex?
Message:
I remember the entrance fee being $35 for anyone over 10 years old but maybe I'm wrong.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 21:49:14 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: ex for 20 years
Message:
I was initiated in Jan of 1975...and left in late 1978 or early 1979.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 22:08:48 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: How Long An Ex?
Message:
Received K in May 1972. Ashram from 1973 -1975. Went downhill from '73 when I moved into the ashram, for me. When I believed Maharaji was the Lord I had some fantastic experiences of devotion but usually only when I WASN'T with Maharaji. That was always my hangup as a premie. When I was with the Lord I never felt anything. Now I know why.

Tried desperately to be reinstated into the ashram again in early eighties e.g. cycled miles in pouring rain with a bad cold just to attend ashram applicant's satsang. Ron Geaves reduced me to tears and a near nervous breakdown with his one thousandth rendition of his Maharaji said leave your sickness in your blankets story.

Things folded in the UK in 1973. No satsang or ashrams or service etc. I was bewildered and felt very lost. Felt very betrayed. Finally started to try to get a life back together and never ever wanted to get back into Maharaji's game ever again. So I guess you can say I've been ex for sixteen years after being a premie for eleven years.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 22:55:21 (EST)
From: peter howie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: P - 13 Ex - 13
Message:
p - 13, EX - 13
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 22:58:50 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: JW
Subject: P-5yrs Ex-20yrs
Message:
Dear JW,
I recieved K late in 1973 or early 74 don't know the month or the mahatma. I was really into it for 3yrs and marginal, programs and meditation but no satsang for 2 more years. I've been an ex for 20 yrs.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 00:19:32 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Oh, jeeze,I'm real quick
Message:
I was shown the light technique and nectar by a hari krishna
protester at the millenium festival 1973 on the front steps.

They were pissed that premies would tell them that thier
krishna had come. I was an aspirant so the krishna guys
angrily showed me without asking and made some disparaging
comments about ole prem pal.

On the way to the festival, we stopped by a river and I walked
along the banks until I came upon a tent and it was a revival
tent and they asked me what I was doing and I said I was going to
that millenium festival and they had me get on my knees and
(no this wasn't 'deliverance' like the movie) but they prayed
on my head and saved me but I went to the event of the
millenium anyway.

The day after the event, 900 people weere shown techniques
at the rice hotel in houston. In different hotel rooms.
I had daranand.

It wasnt until the video of the dec. 96 event made it to
my community that the real cracks started to surface.
It was late winter/early spring 97 and just around the same
month that I found this warsite--I mean website. It was a
war then. I went through the long drawn out process
of dealing with the layers until I could say I was about
off the fence truly about 14 months ago.
I never would have made it without this forum of honest folks.
I would have been just in a state of damage.
I needed to be able to put my foot down on understandings
of life to be able to step off my programming.

summer of 73-winter of 98=24+years! 14 months free to think
and evolve.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 01:14:37 (EST)
From: aoa
Email: None
To: forum
Subject: P 2 yr; Fence 20 yr; Ex 1 yr
Message:
Premie 2 years (including time as aspirant);
sat on the fence for 20 years (some contact with EV);
ex-premie since January 1998.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 04:02:35 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: aoa
Subject: Help me! P=24 yrs. X=1 yr.
Message:
More than half of my fucking life believing in that motherfucker! And I ain't free yet.

1956 Experiences of Astral Projection or something powerful
1969 Self Taught Meditation/Astral Projection
1971 LSD
1972 Peyote!
1971 First Satsang Boulder on Flagstaff Peak at night
1972 Transcendtal Meditation
1973 First darshan program
1973 Techniques Denver Guru Charanand
1989 Stopped maintenance drinking
1997 March first visit to Forum
1997 Last Program: Long Beach
1998 Feb. or Mar. Sawed through my leg irons, learning to walk
1999 Stopped beating my dog, masturbation, and lying
2000 Will burn all my clothes and proclaim my Godhood!

Pre-ashram and premie houses much of the 70s.

Faded away from premie community in 1979 still attending occasional satsang and going to every program in U.S.

80s occassional satsang when available. Socialized some with premies. Started missing some U.S. programs that were too far away.

Early 90s less satsang available. Attended regional programs with Maharaji.

Mid-90s - Got into the videos fairly regularly. Started sending serious money to EV on a monthly basis. Financially supported local community, too. Attended regional programs and major events at Miami and Long Beach. No Amaroos, no India trips, but thought very seriously about going. Did a little service at videos. Once did service at the Malibu residence spit polishing a golden toilet seat.

Holy shit! Coffee is perking! Realization! I was into this fucking cult bigtime!

The fucking videos and the trinket halls did me in. Having seen some Aberjan (sp) in Africa video at least 15 times I knew that something was wrong with me because I hated it, yet the other premies were still ooohing and aaaaahing each time.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 10:33:58 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: dr who
Subject: P=1yrs. X=25 yr.
Message:
Spent most of my sentence doing hard time in ashram. Escaped in the night wearing a red nighty over my polyester suit....
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 19:37:11 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Oh, jeeze, I'm real quick
Message:
Man, oh man, burke you must be dim witted or sumpthin. 24 years That's not slow, that's retarded!. How come the ''saving'' didn't take? You couldda been a jesus freak for all those years...
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Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 01:01:12 (EST)
From: b-zerk
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Oh, jeeze, I'm real quick
Message:
I know!
The damn breath!
The green acid at woodstock must have done me in.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 04:20:20 (EST)
From: L
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: How Long An Ex?
Message:
Received 'K' in 1975. Involved with DLM/EV/M approx. 13 years total. Ex about 11 years total. Left in the early 80's when DLM dissolved, no contact with M or his followers, returned to the videos and seeing M in the early 90's. Gave it up last year.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 04:33:24 (EST)
From: ex-mug
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: not long enough!
Message:
Was shown the techniques in 1973 by Gyanyoganand (cosmic cat!)
and moved into the ashram just after Millenium Festival.
Stayed in ashram until 1982 (had a year out in 1976).
Through the 80's I started to feel very uneasy about M's trip,
and the final penny dropped in 1995, by which time I hated what
was going on with M, and now consider him to be a charlatan and
major fraud/con-man.
So, I've been a formal ex for 4 years, but half an ex from 1982
to 1995.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 04:40:08 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: How Long An Ex?
Message:
Hi JW,

Premie 25 years, Ex for half a year- still soaring away like a champagne cork.

Did you receive knowledge at Woodside Avenue by any chance?

Anth
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 05:35:51 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: How Long An Ex?
Message:
Premie from october 72 to .... somewhere between 96-97 where I staid on the fence for a few months.
Then I decided I was not a premie anymore in the summer of 97. That was difficult.
And I considered myself an ex in fall of 97.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 10:56:22 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: OT....waldorf
Message:
Awhile ago I was doing a little research on it and decided I did not want my youngest to attend a waldorf school because of some of Steiners beliefs. I can give you a link to it but basically it is the anthroposy(sp?) which sounds anti science to me. Also, it sounds like Stiener was really quite rascist and that put me off as well. Do you have any current opinion on the topic?

http://www.dandugan.com/waldorf/index.html

most of what I read comes from this site. I am curious what you think as obviously you know a lot on the subject and are likely quite familiar with the debate.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 13:59:19 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: OT....waldorf
Message:
I was always too poor to send my kids to the Waldorf school, and I didn't have the patience to really study Steiner's stuff. But I do recall one tenet that I liked: that children (unless they want to) shouldn't be forced to learn to read or do academics until they have their adult teeth in front. Something like that. I found that with my 3 boys especially, none was even remotely interested in reading until they were 8 or 9. Before that it was a battle!

When I had 3 kids aged 6 years to 6 months, we lived in a tipi in Arkansas, and I homeschooled the older ones. But I didn't force them to read or do anything that didn't interest them. Made life a lot easier and more enjoyable for us all. If only we'd had running water--I might've wanted to stay.
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Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 00:40:14 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: OT....waldorf
Message:
I've seen a previous thread decscribing Steiner (Waldorf's creator) as racist but never encountered this reading his books. He had all kinds of very occult, bizarre teachings, coupled with a totally Jesus freaked orientation. After talking about all kinds of weird astral stuff, he would invoke the Christ spirit.

He was the least racist of the occultists of the time, and I have personally not encountered racist material in his writing (unless my memory is totally askew and I had compensated for how racist the average occultist was- like Alice Bailey or Madame Blavatsky). In fact, my understanding is he was targeted by the Nazis.

His teaching was a combination of interesting ideas which eclectically touched on anything, and occultist beliefs that seemed to have gone on a bit too far. Photos of the guy's architecture would at least be interesting. Transcripts of him describing a dozen past lives of some historical personage whose house he was visiting would be hard to describe as anything but delusional.
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Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 03:21:23 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: cadbury@compuserve.com
To: g's mom
Subject: G's MOM:Please READ
Message:
Dera g's mom,
I had really bad experience with Waldorf schoools about 7 years ago. My daughter went to a walforf kindergarden and she was expelled becuase we(her parents) complained about the use of corporal punishment.
I won't go into detail here, but would really warn you to question in detail anyone who might be teaching your child(if you are considering sending).
Personally I would classify Waldorf as a serious cult. They are really a bunch of snakes who appear very 'blissful'.

I have a 30 page report about the behaviour of the Waldorf people here (UK) and their 'community' when we complained about corporal punishment.
If you want a copy, I will happily send it to you. Just tell me where to post it. (I don't have it on disk)My email is above.
I am really happy I got my child out of there early.She has lost nothing by going to an ordinary state school. She is now 11 and is a wonderful human being(well I would say that wouldn't I :>))

Love from Jethro
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Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 11:33:39 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: thanks Jethro
Message:
I would like to read it I will email you.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 12:48:58 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: How Long An Ex?
Message:
Did you receive knowledge at Woodside Avenue by any chance?

No, I received knowledge in Hyde Park, Chicago at the ashram on Green Street, which was later condemened and shut down by the city building department.

Keep soaring Anth. I always enjoy your posts.

JW
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 07:29:52 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: p-25 ex-1 nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 08:07:27 (EST)
From: Mary M
Email: mem_mcgraw@msn.com
To: JW
Subject: How Long An Ex?
Message:
Actually, I was 3/4 a premie since Easter of 1973. I walked out on the mahatma who kept saying 'no pain no gain' in my knowledge session.

Started getting out and on my feet in 1978, completely free, January 31st 1986.

Free 13 years!
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 11:21:06 (EST)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: How Long An Ex?+semantics
Message:
I was a 'premie' from 1973-1997, 24 years, 'ex-premie' 1 year. But, JW, I would like to offer a comment on this terminology since I find all premie-speak confusing and when I now talk with any person who has received Knowledge (practicing or not) I refuse to allow them to use any premie-speak. The terminology has evolved (one of Maharaji's new buzz words) to the point that some phrases have entirely new meanings, e.g. 'practicing Knowledge' used to mean satsang, service, and meditation; while today this very term is used by current PWK's as meaning sitting in meditation. With this in mind, I was a premie (lover) only in the seventies, which is the only period of time that Knowledge in the US was truely and unabashedly a guru/disciple experience. Beginning some time in the early 80's, Maharaji stopped using the term 'premie' altogether in the West and downplayed devotion to a very large extent. He has been wishy-washy and swinging back and forth on the subject ever since. I personally don't see how any Westerner could possibly consider themselves a premie now, since both the term and the concept are still avoided by people who currently practice Knowledge as prescribed by Rawat. Maharaji is so politically correct and goes to such lengths to put on a good general impression to newcomers that outright devotion is a big no-no. In contrast, another guru from the 70's, Da Free John (aka Da Love Ananda, etc.), continues to quite openly proclaim his physical form the embodiment of God and the worthy object of adoration, and if you think that's weird, well - tough!! I actually still consider myself a premie in a certain sence, if you take it to mean 'lover of truth' having nothing whatsoever to do with Rawat in particular. So, I know that you all are already aware of this language difficulty and that you are taking an unscientific poll here, but in our efforts to thwart Rawat and in our efforts to communicate with current 'premies' we need to be aware of the problem of semantics. This problem is quite significant and I have actually wondered some times if anyone really understands what Knowledge actually is anymore, including the perfect-master/lord/teacher/non-leader himself.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 12:55:01 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Good Point
Message:
Way,

Of course, you're right. I guess I am just using those terms in the most basic way. By 'premie' I just mean that someone identifies as a follower of M, that they consider him his or her 'master' and they do what he prescribes, to one extent or another.

And by 'ex-premie' I just mean someone who no longer considres M their 'master' and don't attempt to follow or be 'inspired' by him anymore. Obviously, if you felt this way you would not longer go to programs, give money, have pictures of him in your house, go to video events, or consider you have some kind of 'connection' to him.

By the way, your mental image of me is right on. You must be psychic (I wish). :)
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 14:21:16 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Shit's Creek
Message:
For me, the ultimate test of being a premie or an ex, would have to be whether or not one prays to maharaji in the direst of circumstances. I consider the point I became an ex to be when I realized it was totally useless... I was praying to a cardboard god. Must have been around '87.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 17:52:48 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Dammmmm!
Message:
Rick: He doesn't even rate 'stone,' just cardboard god status :-) LOL LOL
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 10:22:42 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: JW
Subject: How Long An Ex?
Message:
This is a fascinating thread, JW. Thanks for starting it. These read like mini-Journeys, and it's surprising how many people can attribute leaving Maharaji (or the fence) to the time when they found the forum.

I received Knowledge in 72 before the Montrose festival. Lived in the Denver ashram until that festival, and then wandered off to find my perfect wife. Found someone willing to pretend along with me in 73. She received Knowledge, we honeymooned at Millennium and pissed away much-needed money in AMP. Moved back to Denver in 78 to try to reconnect. DLM was underground and impossible to find, Jim Jones hit the headlines, Bob Mishler went public, and my marriage began serious sputtering. Got divorced in 80, and then lived a simple working class life paying child support until 96, with Maharaji simmering on 'low' on the back burner. Found the forum in spring of 97, and finally tossed out the last bit of Lord-crap (crap-Lord!) within a few months of reading and posting here.

So I guess, p=7, fence=18, x=2
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 10:39:50 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: How Long An Ex?
Message:
I received the 4 monkeys in 1972. Practiced through 81. At first, I was very active, hoping to be a super-premie, but mellowed out in a community with little formal activity, still maintaining a dogmatic stance (if you asked me). Late 70's, early 80's I tried to rekindle more formal involvement, but DLM was going down and I left in 81.

I saw Rawatt twice after that. The first time was very small and I almost hit him with some really hard questions but didn't, thinking I just am not into it anymore. The second, I almost literally walked into a program by accident, and had accepted that I was gone with less anger about M. It seemed almost nostalgically sweet at first, but then kind of psycho, with premies I hadn't seen in years walking around listlessly like zombies and walking up to me like it had been a couple of days to bum money.

It hurt a lot in the 80's to think I was cut off from friends due to being unassociated with the cult. I also thought a lot about how to raise the issues in a public forum but didn't have a clue as to where to start.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 11:03:59 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: How Long An Ex?
Message:
received knowledge Feb 1st 1974(POP, Gitanand)
Became ashramee 1975
Became chucked-onto-street-ashramee 1980/81 (I took it as a test)
81-85 continued doing propagation but was beginning to feel relucatnce about sending people to programs as the organisers were treating premies and people reaaly badly.......when M and honchos didn't answer letters ...the drips began
86-92 really began to become anti-organisation(didn't blame M for anything). Stopped giving money and forced my fiancee to stop sending 10%. Brought fewer and fewer people to K.
93-95 Stopped completely sending people even though I still believed M was Lord, felt totally schizophrenic.
95-96 Began to say what I was really feeling to a few people. The only time I experinced real satsang was when I was saying the truth about M, i.e that he is a fake
97-98 admitted to myself that I have left M
98-99 really beginning to rebuild and BREATHE again

so p=22 fence=2 ex=2

love to all Jethro
Ps many thanks to Anth(AJW) for the 'drip'metaphor...as Joe Cocker would say 'it helps put it all into context'
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 11:07:34 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: CORRECTION :The Joe Cocker
Message:
quote should be 'it helps put it all into FOCUS'..(for those of you old enough to remember Woodstock)
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 11:05:04 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: P-14yrs, Ex-12yrs (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 11:35:07 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: p =10 yrs, ex = 17 yrs
Message:
-hippie, psychedelics, yoga, late sixties
-other Indian guru 1971
-received K 1972
-ashramee until 1973 then lived in different '-p-houses'
-fence-sitter, 1974-77
-active 1977-79
-fence-sitter 1979-82
-ex from 1982
-found the forum dec. 1998

all the diferent stages and 'drips' are described in my journey.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 12:26:12 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: How Long An Ex?
Message:
Received K. in 1980. Lived out on the fringe after that where I maintained a positve image of M for 18 years. Meditated and attended satsang/videos periodically during that time. Didn't start doubting M was the real McCoy until about two years ago. Became an ex when I found this website 8 months ago. It was the first time I'd ever heard somebody admit that they weren't really getting much out of the meditation. I identified strongly with that. (And no Miloochie, I'm not scared the premies are going to get on my ass if I say the Knowledge really works for me. It really doesn't.)
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 12:44:45 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: P - 4 yrs Ex - 22 yrs (nt)
Message:
that's right, four years as a premie, twenty-two years as a real person.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 13:40:58 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: P = 23; Ex-P = 2.5 NT
Message:
Nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 15:04:54 (EST)
From: Doney
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: P 15+5, Ex, 2 weeks
Message:
I was a premie for 12 years, then left for 5 years, but didn't consider myself an ex-premie, then a premie again for 5 years. I've been an ex-premie for about 2 weeks, thanks to the open and patient people on this forum. Thanks guys. My head is spinning less, but it's still spinning. I think I'm starting to feel free, and that's great.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 15:12:54 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Doney
Subject: P 15+5, Ex, 2 weeks
Message:
Dear Doney,
Bless your heart and good luck! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 16:44:06 (EST)
From: Mad scientist
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: M+478939+ 2+ +870ht
Message:
This is my formula for figuring out the effects of all this brainwashing on all the ex-premies.
It's really me,
Helen
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 22:09:54 (EST)
From: Prof John Hammond-Smyth
Email: lab@basement.com
To: Mad scientist
Subject: M+478939+ 2+ +870ht
Message:
Guru raised to the power of infinity divided by the square root of all the premies = the sum of a right angled tricycle when pi is extrapulated to the decimal place equal to the number of words in a Rich Neal song.
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Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 10:06:09 (EST)
From: Mad scientist
Email: None
To: Prof John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: M+478939+ 2+ +870ht
Message:
Exactly, my dear professor. I am familiar with your work, and with your lovely wife...very familiar. Why a few years back she was a study subject in an experiement of mine, it had to do with the sexual response mechanisms of the homo sapien female...let's just say she was an EXCELLENT subject.
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Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 11:58:17 (EST)
From: Prof John Hammond-Smyth
Email: None
To: Mad scientist
Subject: expansion of master, theorum
Message:
My dear fellow, if you think my wife's lovely then you must surely be mad! I by the way, I forgot to mention that the total mass of the perfect master is in direct proportion to the speed of lies, squared.

Using Prof Heinz Baked-Beans theorum of the expansion of the waistline being infinite and interjuxtasupposed with the contributory factor of the followers of the master. Or in layman's terms - the more money we give the perfect master, the fatter he gets.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 17:33:06 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: P 15+5, Ex, 2 weeks
Message:
Go Doney!! I didn't realize you had untied the knot!! COngratulations!
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 17:39:58 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: All
Subject: My #'s are....
Message:
Premie from about 79-84

Drifted away because I couldn't make the trip fit my life anymore, but still prayed to GM when I had really bad cramps and such, still had GM in my back pocket as a 'fall back' type of thing. still had romantic and goofy notions about him 'til I found the forum in Oct 98

Premie--5 years
Fence--14 years
Ex-premie --4.5 months
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 18:00:25 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Helen
Subject: My #'s are....
Message:
Dear Helen,
You must be Helen C. Hi.
Shit that is funny, still prayed to him when you had cramps! Hahahaha! He is a man, what would he do for cramps! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 22:39:54 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Pretty boney looking group!
Message:
Aspirant 9 months, Ashram 4 yrs, Belligerent premie 18 yrs, Ex-premie 3 months.
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Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 10:09:20 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Pretty boney looking group!
Message:
Hey you reminded me I was an aspirant for 2 freaking years, it felt like 20. 'Beligerant premie'--ha ha--let's start a thread on that. I want to start a thread on the 'I'm more surrendered than you' games and other such games premies (and all folks in heavy spiritual trips) play.
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Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 00:33:34 (EST)
From: beel
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: congradulations Zac!
Message:
You are doing much better than I was after three months!
I sputtered for about 9 months.
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Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 15:48:49 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Doney
Subject: Hi Doney...
Message:
just happy to see your post.
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Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 11:44:57 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: How Long An Ex?
Message:
Hi JW - Good thread, plus you received some great responses. Thanks!

Here's my story: I got knowledge in 1972 at age 16. Becoming a follower of M was actually a step up from what I'd been doing previously. I left in 1977 after attending Holi in Miami where the focus was on 'rededication' after the 'spacing out' of 1976. No fence sitting.

I can't say that I really considered myself to be an ex-premie for many years - I didn't look back, or even think about M, until 1997, when several things happened. I found a M video lying around at work (I didn't even know M was still around, and I certainly didn't know he made videos!). Turns out one of the professors at work was a premie who was lending intro videos to people. Then one of my best friends (also an ex) did a web search on M and told me about this site and the former premie.org site. I then found out that another close premie friend of mine had committed suicide. Found the alt.cult.maharaji newgroup, and read most of the stuff on the ex-premie site, then got involved in the forum and the rest is history.

I was really amazed to see how many people here said that they finally got off the fence after reading the site and forum. It's very heartening to read that, and it gives Brian and me much motivation for continuing our work on the site and forum. Thanks, everyone.
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Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 12:03:56 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I liked this thread...
Message:
I think more poll type questions might be fun. I wish I could think of one. It is a good way to sort of get to know the posters.
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Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 13:01:04 (EST)
From: Roger Drek
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thanks Brian and Katie
Message:
For once in my sleazy life I'll be honest and say that I'm doing my House of Drek to become rich and famous, but you guys are doing this for free.

It sure can be a lot of work as I've seen from doing my little nothing website.

You bet the Forum helps people get off the fence. And it might keep people from the making Mistake #1 of getting into Maharaji's Cult.

Thanks!

Now, if you can just fix the Internet problem of retrieving an NT post is taking two minutes.
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Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 15:30:47 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thank you Katie and Brian
Message:
Your efforts and those of people who continue to post and make this place a fun and interesting place to visit are paying off in many ways.

1. I found a place that makes sense.
2. Alot of premies read this and even if they continue with M it will be with eyes wide open. Much less chance of getting hurt.
3. M will now have to factor the x page into everything he does. His secrecy trip is blown. For most the crime is getting caught.
4. More people will stumble in here who've left the cult and are still carrying baggage they need to unload.
5. People interested in knowledge can get the information they really need before accepting him as their teacher.

Course you guys know this but I just wanted to say many thanks!
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Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 14:59:04 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: rbruce@teleport.com
To: JW
Subject: P 26y(w/doubts,6y),ex 1y
Message:
The forum helped me get clear and free of guilt and fear associated with leaving! Greetings to all. Carol
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Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 01:10:37 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Hi Carol!! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 02:17:01 (EST)
From: Marshall
Email: None
To: thread at large
Subject: P-1yr. EX-22yrs.
Message:
I recieved knowledge from Jagdeo at age 7 or 8 and then, through sort of peer pressure considered myself a premmie for about a year. After that I just went with my common sense and intuition, which told me it was bullshit. I've been trying to deprogram my mom ever since, but she's pretty deep into the gooroo's trap.
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Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 03:09:41 (EST)
From: HALIP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: How Long An Ex?
Message:
Hello JW,

In the hope that my posting isn't too late, here is my 'data'.
I received Knowldege in April 76 and has been a 'complete' ex since July 97.

I added 'complete', meaning stopping being involved in any way shape or form, because the weaning took some time, as you may know !
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Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 04:37:56 (EST)
From: HALIP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: To which I'd like to add...
Message:
that I was on the proverbial fence pretty much since 1980. Since I wrote my previous post before reading the others -- being French and forever hasty ! -- I thought I'd give a bit more details as well, should it be of interest to anybody.

So, received K in april 76, from Ira Woods, in the Brooklyn ashram, in NYC.

Moved to LA in january 77, and tried to be a good premie and follow orders, although I was definitely another belligerant one. However always refused to move in the Ashram -- 'What ! Someone else driving MY car ! No fucking way, pal'. In spite of my hard headedness, was allowed to do service at the Palace, but outside the formal gates, and ended up planting cabbages and feeding the Holy goats of the Lord... another story. Hated my life in LA (I thought to be a good premie meant giving up my film career, starting to wear bubus and become a house-cleaner...) Packed up and moved back to NY in 1980.

From 80 to 92, was more or less involved. But went to see M now and then, especially when it only cost me the price of a subway token. Once felt obliged to give 20 bucks for one of the many plane projects... thinking to myself : 'Why can't the guy fly commercial like everybody else !'

92 moved back in France. Got involved again as I thought that I would meet people and make friends, not knowing anyone here, since I had left France when I was 17. I thought the premies here for the most part had no 'joie de vivre' whatsoever and found out there was a real hard core of oldprems who were definitely in a power trip. It was a bit scary. Anyway, did a bit of translation for a while but was horrified by some of the documents I was asked to translate (you'd think some of them were classified top secret by the Pentagon, there was such paranoia going on -- now, I know why !) Got tired of the whole G's scene in general : his endless bragging about his great achievments (how many tons of rice and veggies were served in some Festival, his poetry, his music, his this, his that), the personnality cult, etc. The final straw came for me when I was asked to translate some documents about the accomodations in Amaroo, July 97 and found out there were asking $200 a night to premies to have the privilege to sleep in a tent on the same ground as the LOTU., and that hotel accomodations were MORE expensive during festival than off festival. It made me SICK ! It was discrimination by money -- only the Rich shall be allowed to sleep near Me ! -- and pure, pure greed. That day, when I read that, it was over. I never looked back, and haven't missed it one single day. Actually, I feel relieved, free and quite happy with my life.

I found this site, thanks to JM, and visited here the minute I got connected to the Net, in January 99, and read the post almost nightly -- some of them I find hilarious ! I find the people here have spunk and are intelligent and it's a pleasure to read them, so thanks to all of you, guys !

Happy and living in Paris
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Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 00:40:45 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: HALIP
Subject: To which I'd like to add...
Message:
And it's great to read you as well!
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Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 17:20:11 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: HALIP
Subject: To which I'd like to add...
Message:
I agree with Bill, you're a hoot to read!! You've got a lot of of spunk yourself. I remember one time you said you liked dressing up and flirting and I said to myself 'go girl'. Loved the 'give up my car--no fucking way' HA HA
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Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 04:23:37 (EST)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: How Long An Ex?
Message:
Premie-13 years, fence- 9 years, amtext -4 years, ex-7 months.
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Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 09:12:24 (EST)
From: Archer....Downunder
Email: None
To: All
Subject: p=17yrs ex=8mths
Message:
Hello to all

I received 'Knowledge' in 1972 and in 1998 I surfed the net and visited this site.

So now that I've found my voice I want to thank you one and all for bravely going where many others fear to go. In the opposite direction to Maharaji.

This site peirced the thick veil of secrecy M is shrouded in. Finally I can see behind the Persona. Does this mean technology is my saviour?

Thankfully I was ready to move on and I'm enjoying my release from the frozen state of premieship.I wasn't just ready to fly, I am flying.

I am gratefull for having these four techniques, they came my way at a very precarious moment in my life and have naver let me down.

I was never a service freak. Probably due to my lack of a work ethic.Although a few years ago I found my work ethic and now I to have many stories of......

I approached the subject of moving into an ashram with a visiting instructor a couple of years after getting K. His reply was 'you don,t want to do that'I was left confused and thankfully detered.

But my heart was in the right place. I Loved and respected M. It was a true and thankfull Love.A Love that was mine to give.

I am not angry at M for the overwhelming influence he had in my life. If I did not grow and change it was because I chose not to.
You see, I realised that I helped create M. As did anyone who bent
down to kiss his feet.{I feel OK about that now as I'm quite sure he has the cleanest socks and feet on the planet}.He was an Idol that I welcomed into my life. An Idol who is the product of the power adults have over their children to shape and mould them.
An Idol that is a product of a longing spanning many generations.
A longing to be freed from our ignorance and to find our place in this mystery.A longing to know who we truly are.

I now understand that the Profession of Premieship is not an organic way of being but a constructed one. It includes the devaluing of all human relationships. Including the most important one. The one with oneself.

Thankyou seems to mean nothing when I consider the impact this site has had on the rest of my life. I've been liberated, I'M FREE.

I,d like to say more about the happenings downunder but there,s a few things I have to do first.

'Say it, Say it, Say it,.... Tell it like it is.
Say it, Say it, Say it,.... So everyone can hear.'

{Tracy Chapman}

Have Fun...Love Archer
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Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 13:02:07 (EST)
From: Marshall
Email: None
To: Archer....Downunder
Subject: p=17yrs ex=8mths
Message:
Hi Archer
I'm glad that you've found your voice here. It sounds like this site helped you sort out a lot of unanswered questions. Thats the main problem IMO with Maharajis operation, no hard questions are allowed. Just keep it Lite in premieland, don't get too deep, don't ask too much (that's the mind!)
I think you have made some good points.
'We created maharaji'. How true, without each individuals longing, needs, and projections there would have been no gooroo, just an arrogant, pudgy kid standing on a stage wearing a crown looking idiotic. It's like they say, the more you put into things the more you get out of them. Maharaji and his followers are like some kind of a closed symbiotic organism, that feeds on itself.
yecchh!!
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Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 08:10:35 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Archer....Downunder
Subject: Hi Archer + my dates
Message:
Hullo Archer

Welcome to the forum! Will look forward to your contributions. I can relate to your feelings of elation - so good to be FREE.

To JW,

I've generally considered that I was a premie for 22 years, ex for four. But the 'fence' category could also be invoked: I had doubts of major proportions for about the last five of the 22 'premie' years. Although for almost all that time I still considered MJ to be my Master, a position he held, in my estimation, due to his having shown me how to meditate. I just didn't like him, a lot of the time...which was pretty crazy-making because I believed I should. After all, he was the Lord. Not in so many words, you understand, but we all knew...

Good thread, JW. Shows that there's a wide range of people posting here. Also that many are relatively recent exes - contrary to the accusations often leveled at this forum.

Love, Diz
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Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 01:19:10 (EST)
From: Archer
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: Recent defectors
Message:
Thanks for the welcome Diz & Marshall

September 98 M came to Aus. for 6 weeks. When he visites here he stays at the Ivorys Rock Convention Center which is rented out to other conferences when not in use by M. He doesn,t own it of course. The group speak is, he is the principle client and therefor his every need is taken into consideration, including future planning.

A Brisbane reporter wrote a damning article which went to print a couple of days before he left.The reporter accessed information from this sight qouting Bob Mishler. Needless to say the Boss
{as he is often referred to at IRCC} left VERY displeased and the internet site called ex.premie.org was on the lips of all. It seemed as though none of use knew it existed. I was very surprised whilst reading the Forum yesterday it,s been here since 87.

Of course to counter balance the news that an ex site existed we were also hearing about the site 'enjoylife'. I was also surprised that this sight existed, as over the last 2 years I have personally heard M down play and can the internet for having an over inflated reputation, several times.

I know of 5 other people some of them were already on the fence, who have taken this site seriously since Sept. 98 and are no longer Premies.

This site may have heart wrenching stories that get stuck in your throat and bring up bad memories. It may appear at first glance to be full of criticism and slanderous remarks. Sometimes the truth may be streached to include assumptions, but there is alot of truth and verifiable history here.

Maharajis actions,his non action and motives are on trial here and it is he who created this web site. Everyone has lessons, the universe does demand that we do indeed grow. It seems to me that no stone is being left unturned as we approach the end of this century.M is no more god than the rest of us and it appears that he must accept that he is as human as the rest of us and therefor must live by the same rules and be accountable for his actions.

The bigger you are the harder you fall.

Seeya... Archer
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Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 07:43:07 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Archer
Subject: Recent defectors
Message:
A Brisbane reporter wrote a damning article which went to print a couple of days before he left.The reporter accessed information from this sight qouting Bob Mishler. Needless to say the Boss {as he is often referred to at IRCC} left VERY displeased and the internet site called ex.premie.org was . It seemed as though none of use knew it existed. I was very surprised whilst reading the Forum yesterday it's been here since 87.

Welcome to the Forum, Archer, and I'm very happy to hear that 'the Boss' is spreading the word (through his pissy-fits) that it's online. That Brisbane article is online here too, BTW. (See Kanguru Hop for the reprint.) I do love that phrase, 'on the lips of all'! EV/Australia is among those who regularly monitor the contents here. (How ELSE are they going to find out the truth about Maharaji?)

Don't know if that was a typo or not, but the site and forum have been online (in one form or another) since 1997 - not 1987.

This site may have heart wrenching stories that get stuck in your throat and bring up bad memories. It may appear at first glance to be full of criticism and slanderous remarks. Sometimes the truth may be streached to include assumptions, but there is alot of truth and verifiable history here.

There is a lot of anger among many of the people who leave Maharaji. Add to that the fact that most premies are kept in the dark about facts surrounding MJ, with information being available on a need-to-know basis. This can lead to errors which get repeated in the forum. Still, the process of opening up and communicating (for the first time, for many) with others who've been there is very helpful in sorting out just where we've been.

The original homepage of this site (in its first incarnation) referred to the site as a place where ex-devotees could get together and discuss 'what hit us'. The site has expanded since then to include as much factual information as is available, but there is also much relating of subjective experience here too.

When you get a chance to sort through your own experiences in the cult, we'd love to read a Journeys entry from you.

Maharajis actions, his non action and motives are on trial here and it is he who created this web site.

That's for sure! He's left a wide trail of broken promises, shattered trust, damaged lives and squandered money and efforts in his wake. And people willing - and finally able - to talk about it, of course.
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Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 21:18:57 (EST)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: How Long An Ex?
Message:
I met a guy who worked for Amtex once. He was very upset because his wife was definately a PAM and had missed her daughters birthday receiving some award from the big M.

He was really pissed even though he had just listened to M at a programme himself.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 18:14:35 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Book/Knowledge Review
Message:
This is part of a review of Tim Gallwey's 'Inner Skiing' by Geoff Parker of the Washington Post, January 27, 1978. I liked it because I think it's also a critique of M's whole simplistic, negative, stunted philosophy.

'Inner Skiing' is an excellent example of American pop-psychology shlock in the post-guru era. Gallwey's recipe for teaching skiing and living is based on heavy doses of love and devotion to Guru Mahararj Ji...and tennis, with just a pinch of skiing thrown in to establish the subject matter and credibility.

An objective review of this book is almost impossible, because it's entirely subjective and ephemeral. Gallwey's basic notion is that people will ski better, learn more about themselves and live better if they free themselves from the self-imposed restrictions of thinking about how things should be rather than felling how things are...[aka 'mind'] It's a simple notion, but it's the only one presented in 140 pages. The rest of the book is repetitive conceptualizing and applying this simple idea - which does not warrant such laborous treatment and which is not clarified by the repetition....

The book represents more than the sport of skiing. It represents the amount of verbal garbage that floats around in and pollutes society and our language. The book is one of many in the market today that says to be yourself, I'm okay, you're okay, be here now and all I gotta do is act naturally - notions that are founded on assumptions that we are not ourselves, that we are not okay, that we are not happy, that we are not here now, and that we don't act naturally. Notions that are founded on insults.

AMEN!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 18:17:36 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Book/Knowledge Review
Message:
JW,
Is he the same guy who wrote the book about Inner Tennis?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 18:20:51 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Yes
Message:
Yes, and he later did one on golf, I think. Here's the opening of the review that I didn't print:

'A fre years ago Inner Tennis and The Inner Game of Tennis swept the courts with a combined sate of almost 400,000 copies. It's time for the instant replay, so here's Inner Skiing, by the same author, Tim Gallwey, applying the same far-out Far Eastern principles to the equally trendy sport of skiing.'
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 18:27:41 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Nice Review!
Message:
JW: This one gets a 10 on the sizzle meter! If I were an author and got a review like that, I'd stop writing.... :-)

On a more serious note, how many world-class golfers, tennis pro's or olympic grade skiers have been produced by these simplistic techniques? Might I hazard a guess of NONE?

The mental states required for olympic class competitors in shooting have nothing to do with mind-numbing meditation; they are time proven techniques in focusing/using the mind effectively (e.g. thinking only about the task at hand, etc). Before anyone asks, yes I was on the 88 squad for shooting sports (50mtr prone aka english match), so I DO know what I'm talking about. If I were to have used Gallwey's techniques, I would have been a burn-bag.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 19:19:09 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Nice Review!
Message:
Hi Mike,

I don't know squat about this skiing or golfing book, what's in them, etc..

What I vaguely remember from Inner..Tennis was a key thread throughout it that you also seem to be stating yourself...

The mental states required for olympic class competitors in shooting have nothing to do with mind-numbing meditation; they are time proven techniques in focusing/using the mind effectively (e.g. thinking only about the task at hand, etc).

What I remember is, Gallwey's premise was to keep focused on the task at hand by saying to yourself 'bounce, hit' in sync with such occurances/actions and also trying to read the thread on the ball. I took that as increased focus tricks..and for a complete hack on the tennis court found them to be very helpful.

The extension of it was to help a player stay focused on the next shot, versus inner dialogue of 'oh shit, I missed that last one, damn, darn, maybe I'll screw this up too, etc.'

Anyway, that's all I remember of it that sticks out.

I work with actors, quite a bit and have for 30 odd years. The best technique I have ever been introduced to or used myself, utilizes a faximile of what I just wrote above. They 'meditate' on the other person, not 'how will I say this next line?' It works (takes a lot of practice, years to master). Oh, and yes, they can keep thinking. (grin) The thinking becomes more subjective (the role they are in) and the result is, well, ahem...magical.

From one of my writings, 'Acting is an intuitive art, not an intellectual exercise.' Even when an actor THINKS they 'thought' themselves into a terrific performance, they simply are not aware that it became completely intuitive somewhere along the process and that is what the audience is cheering.

FWIW,

Miloochie
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 19:35:56 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: Good point
Message:
Miloochie: But I am having a hard time explaining the difference between meditation and concentration. The two are mutually exclusive in my book. Of course, Gallwey isn't going to give away the 'secret' techniques, but he seems to get pretty close in other ways.

Using your mind (by focusing on the act in the present) isn't the same thing as trying to 'kill' your mind. You are quite correct when you say (in sports) that you don't want to 'dwell' on a past event, BUT you do need to think about it (for a moment) to prevent it from happening again if it was an error. If you just 'go with the flow' you never learn what went wrong and thus never do really fix it. A slight error in technique doesn't get fixed by 'going with the flow.' Maybe I'm not being so clear here, but I do see a great difference between what my mind went thru while being coached to olympic calibre and the techniques that I gleaned from the 'inner game' series. Maybe I'm being a bit harsh, but I tend to agree with the general sentiments of the book reviewer.

Visualization techniques are of the form of concentration to which I refer. Obviously, it's outright, positive use of the mind (vice attempts to stop its activity). But, one of the absolute WORST things that you can do (in shooting) is to think 'SHOOT' when you shoot or to think 'SHOOT NOW' when the sight picture becomes perfect. If you did this, you would be a day late and a dollar short due to a phenomina known (in the shooting sports) as 'flinching.' It's REALLY BAD, to say the least. The proper technique is non-verbal visualization (without verbal instructions or verbal follow thru during the act). Did that make it a bit clearer? I hope so. :-)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 20:23:08 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: I think we agree (nt)
Message:
djhdldl
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 19:30:54 (EST)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Nice Review!
Message:
At least with his 'Inner GAME of Tennis' one can say that Gallwey had a right to write that book because he was a more or less accomplished tennis player.
But skiing? I don't think so.
I think he had about as much right to write that book as I would
' The Inner Game of Ballet Dancing'
Nim:):):)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 19:38:28 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: Nice Review!
Message:
What's so specious about Gallwey is that he took M's 'philosophy' which really isn't anything, and just tried to apply it to everything, including tennis and skiing. And like M, it requires you to assume there is something wrong with you first. With M, you have to think your mind is bad, thinking is bad, that you aren't connected to your 'heart,' that you are confused about the purpose of life, that you don't experience real love, that the external world will thrwart you, that your brain can't be trusted, etc., and so you have to do some ephemeral, magical 'system' to fix it all and be devoted to M to maintain it. It's a werid Hindi trip applied to skiing or life and full of contradictions. So, you can't think about the contradictions, you just have to have 'understanding' which means programming. You have to be in a cult.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 19:47:20 (EST)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Nice Review!
Message:
You have to be in a cult.
I guess that explains why I enjoyed his tennis book...but I felt some of his techniques and approach, kind of helped my game(tennis that is) as sadly pathetic it may be.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 20:07:32 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: Nice Review!
Message:
Nim,

I was actually a good tennis player in high school and college, but played little for the 10 years I was a premie. I'm sure ANY 'system,' Gallwey's, Maharaji's or anyone else's can actually help someone in the short run, but if it's based on something you can't question, then it eventually becomes it's own reality, and no longer serves an end. This is definitely what happened to me as a premie. At first I was much happier, but then the energy it took to repress the contradictions and inherent problems with the 'system' got to be too much.

One of the incongruities of both Gallwey and Maharaji is that they say on the one hand 'Don't think about what you're doing and, on the other, Feel what you're doing.' They make some big hay that there is a distinction between the two, and there really isn't. I think it's a false duality and it ultimately makes you really frustrated and schizophrenic. [As proof note the comments of many of the premies who post on this forum.]
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 01:08:31 (EST)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: JW and Mike
Subject: Ok guys... my serve!!
Message:
JW, I really never reached the level of competence at tennis that you did, I was only a novice when I bought Gallweys book and read it(Btw , I'd still consider myself a novice becauseI haven't really kept up with it over the years)and I felt as I said before that his techniques and his approach helped move my game forward, made it a little more enjoyable.
Now the basic thrust of those 'techniques and his approach', at least my understanding of it is(and I don't have the book with me anymore, but this is my recollection)as follows.
Gallwey underscored the importance of 'body awareness', of one being able to trust one's body to perform the task at hand ie. in tennis to be able to return an oncoming ball over the net back in your opponents court. He tried to simplify both the teaching and learning process by encouraging players to trust an innate kind of intelligence that the body has to learn how to make the perfect shot. Relying on external techniques of 'do it this way, do it that way, bend your elbow so much, position the wrist this way, on and on...cmmon guys, who can remember doing all that? AND furthermore, having your mind thinking of all these external instructions only takes you further from where you have to be, and that is focusing on the task at hand.
So, Gallwey said, 'look guys, your body knows how to take the perfect shot. Just give it the opportunity to learn how.'
And for this he outlined techniques of focusing on the ball, to help one avoid the unnecessary mental distractions, that do not help in any sport.
He stressed 'visualization', seeing yourself make that shot, taking a picture of it in your mind, and allowing your mind's picture to translate through your body's action.
Now we can talk about this from today till tomorrow, but the fact remains that his tennis book sold like shit going through a goose, and we have to keep in mind that this was not some big shot tennis player, a Jimmy Connors or Arthur Ashe, this was just a college and junior level tennis player player, who several years later as a result of his experience with Maharaji, was able to develop a new perspective on the game which he then shared with others in his book. And it caught on. People liked the book, they felt it helped them with their game, and they recommended it to friends and it became a huge success.
Point to Mike: I can't remember Gallwey instructing people to apply k techniques to the game of tennis. He developed and shared his own. So if you were too busy on holy name, I can see how you couldn't shoot straight. Heck, we have examples of this here everyday!!
Sorry guys, just because this guy's a premie doesn't mean he deserves to be slammed for writing a book on tennis of all things, that was read and appreciated by alot of people.
He was a pioneer in the use of visualization as it applies to the game of tennis, techniques that changed the way the game would be taught and learned. In terms of tennis, he had a profound influence.
My beef with Gallwey, is that he obviously made a decision to pig out on his success with the tennis book, by branching out to other sports , which he really hadn't 'lived ' the way he had lived tennis for a good chunk of his life. Like I said , he probably knows how to ski like I can dance ballet, or like m can dance,period.
A classic example of greed and the peter principle. He knew something about tennis, and he had something to share with people about tennis.
But not golf, not skiing. He was just trying to schlock off his success from tennis into those sports, and he obviously by the looks of the reviews, got called on it.
But try and find those kind of reviews for the ' Inner Game of Tennis' and I really don't think you'll find too many.
No had Gallwey left it at tennis, he'd be ok in my book.
But he didn't.
Like his master, I guess he just doesn't know when to stop.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 10:27:19 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: Ok guys... my serve!!
Message:
Nim: Ok, I don't want to beat a dead horse, but there are subtle (but VERY real differences) between Gallweys techniques and those techniques taught by 'Class A' coaches (those that coach people to the olympics, etc). I'm sure that I'm not doing a great job of describing it, or you would see the differences too. So, I'll leave it with that. I guess I could give another example beside the 'flinch' response associated with 'verbal' thinking that I already mentioned. The other is 'some' control over involuntary muscles. In shooting, a high heart-rate can be very detrimental to accuracy (the targets really are VERY tiny: the 10-ring is smaller than the diameter of a 22-caliber bullet). The smallest movement can throw your shots all over the place. One of the things that the non-verbal visualization techniques can do is to permit you to consciously slow your heart rate. I could get mine down to 25 beats per minute (from a normal 60) for about 45 seconds. No matter how much you use them, Gallwey's techniques will not permit you to do this. Ahhhh, but I'm beating the horse again, so I'll shut-up now.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 15:13:44 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: Good Points
Message:
I agree, Nim, and I never read Gallwey's book; I saw him selling the book at some festival and he became a premie celibrity and so I kind of tried to ignore him. I guess because he had success with the book, M and the premies propped him up as an example of how knowledge was so practical in the real world. I guess I have no problem with the 'body awareness' stuff; it's just the broader application, like you said, that bugged me.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 19:54:51 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Absolutely right on, JW
Message:
JW: That's the same feeling I got from those books. As you likely know, sports require a fully functional, active and healthy mind if you want to be successful. Killing the mind is the very LAST thing that you would want to do (it would be more distracting than anyone could possibly imagine). I tried to use the meditation techniques while I was attempting to perfect my shooting technique and I actually got measurably worse. My coach was P.I.S.S.E.D to say the least (when he found out what I was doing). He had the presence of mind to let me know, in no uncertain terms, that CONCENTRATION was required (vice brain dead lack of mental activity). I went back to the non-verbal visualization techniques (call it 'imagination' if you will) and my scores soared.

I have no real idea how Gallwey got good at tennis, but I can tell you that if he had a real coach that taught the proper techniques (as they are right now), he would have been better.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 22:27:40 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mike/JW
Subject: Nice Review!
Message:
I agree with that review, those books sound like a bunch of hooey. I do think that people have 'zen' experiences when working out, doing sports, etc, but only after working hard and developing their skills--it's the icing on the cake, not the whole cake IMO.

I wrote a paper for a child development class I was taking when I first got knowledge. It was the biggest bunch of hooey, all about how children are so pure and live in the moment,etc--all a bunch of hooey, nothing substantive in there. The professor gave me an 'F' of course. So much for just being in that beautiful experience in every aspect of life!! Holy name=neuron blocker
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 18:03:13 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen, You are Very Funny!
Message:
Maybe you should consider doing standup comedy along with singing. I'm serious, you have this great kind of intellectual humor.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 19:41:12 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Helen, You are Very Funny!
Message:
Thank you JW!! I'm trying out some new arthritis meds and I am even loopier than usual.
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Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 00:40:00 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen, You are Very Funny!
Message:
Usual is good too.
Your old meds work great also
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Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 10:20:15 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: But i wasn't on meds b-4
Message:
Thanks Bill, I have tried meds b-4 , and I always end up chucking them in the trash. I would really like to find something that would 1) help with muscle pain 2) have a calming effect (I am pretty agitated a lot of the time b/c my nerves are all pinched due to spurs on my spine), but I would like meds that 3) would not have the side effects of being lethargic and stoned.
If anyone out there has any ideas please share. I have a feeling such a med doesn't exist so II will have to 'surrender' to the treadmill 3 miles walk which always seems to help.

Premies, do NOT tell me to just meditate, Okay???? Being 'surrendered' to GM is what got me into the mess in the first place. I fractured my back when I wasn't exactly using the best judgment (read: spaced out on Maharaji)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 19:44:46 (EST)
From: L
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The Pathology Orientation
Message:
The book is one of many in the market today that says to be yourself, I'm okay,you're okay, be here now and all I gotta do is act naturally - notions that are founded on assumptions that we are not ourselves, that we are not okay, that we are not happy, that we are not here now, and that we don't act naturally.

Hi JW,
I agree, and feel it's based on a pathology orientation which first and foremost looks at what's wrong with you instead of what's right with you. This dynamic is not only found in most psychological schools of thought but also in most religons, and many new age philosophies also take on this assumption that the way we live our lives is not our true selves. Eric Berne, founder of Transactional Analysis, coined the I'm okay, you're okay philosophy. I like Fritz Perls and his Gestalt Therapy saying; I do my thing and you do your thing. I am not in this world to live up to your expectations, and you are not in this world to live up to mine. I am I, and you are you, and if by chance we meet it's beautiful. Although that's not always the case either.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 13:24:08 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: L
Subject: Thanks
Message:
L, thanks so much for thos comments. 'Pathology orientation:' I like that term; it really sums up that viewpoint.

I also think it's Maharaji's viewpoint. In order to accept his philosophy you have to accept that there is something pathologically wrong with you, the world, the mind, and basically all of creation. In his case, the 'wrong' is a kind of ephemeral, but all-pervasive way of interacting with the world outside yourself. He called the culprit 'mind' in the 70s and 80s, now he is much more vague and calls it 'not following your heart' or something equally meaningless. But the pathological way of looking at everything is still there. From what I understand, this is basically a Hindi idea that M has kind of packaged to make it more relatable to the West.

I am amazed sometimes had how completely I swallowed this idea. I guess I was pretty young at the time, and it was easy to just take everything that was difficult or unpleasant in my life and accept it was all due to 'mind' or 'not listening to my heart.' It became so programmed and that you have to do some work to undo it. That's one of the difficult, but also very freeing, things that happen when you examine it closely and question it.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 16:39:04 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hassles of the Lord
Message:
Here are a couple of interesting articles from 1985 about Big M's helipad and his dire need to avoid driving to and from the airport because it's such a terrible burden on him. And despite being all-powerful, he has to humble himself to the wishes of the country planning commission. The articles also show that Linda Gross, now president of Elan Vital, was Maharaji's personal lawyer. It also mentions threats of Maharaji's life as part of the justification.

Article #1: Los Angeles Times, April 11, 1985

These days, life is considerably more sedate for Prem Pal Singh Rawat.

His is no longer Guru Maharaj Ji, the 'perfect master' of the Divine Light Mission who left India for the United States at 13, developed an ulcer by 15, married his secretary at 16 and was denounced by his mother as a playboy at 17.

Now 27, he has dropped the 'Guru' title and is spelling his professional name 'Maharaji.' He claims to be no longer affiliated with the Divine Light Mission.

Ironically, his attorney says, even the current dispute with his neighbors stems from Maharaji's desire to settle down.

The argument centers on how many times each year the one-time guru can descend from the skies in a helicopter to a landing pad at his Malibu mountain-ridge estate, 600 feet above Pacific Coast Highway. Maharaji is seeking county permission to increase the number of landings to 36 each year, triple the number he is currently allowed.

Until last spring, Maharaji was seldom at his mansion, called Anacapa View Estates, said Linda Gross, a Los Angeles lawyer who represents him. He and his family stayed there a few times a year, but they also spent time in Miami and abroad.

Although Maharaji continues to lecture around the world on self-awareness, Gross said, 'about a year ago he started staying in Malibu on a more permanent basis. It's hard to travel with the whole family, and the kids are enrolled in school there now. He is there more often, so he needs to us the helicopter more.'

Maharaj uses the copter for personal transport, Gross said. 'For example, she said, 'when he does travel, it he's just finished an 18-hour flight in form the Pacific, it's helpful to have a 10-minute helicopter ride to get home from the airport to your bed.' [Boy, I know I really feel this way everytime I take a helicopter from the airport!]

But the prospect of so many copter flights has upset nearby residents...

Maharaji won approval to build the helipad in 1980, but only after he agreed to build a 45,000-gallon emergency water storage and pumping system that would be available for fires...

The pattern worries Cherlyn Barrett, who lives at the top of Trancas Canyon. 'Now he wants 36. Next he will want 50,' she said.

The county's Regional Planning Department also opposes Maharaji's plans. 'We just don't feel that the case has been made for the necessity to have more, said Richard Frazier, supervising regional planner. 'Why can't he drive like anybody else?' [This is clearly someone who lacks UNDERSTANDING, wouldn't you say?]

Gross said her client 'has had various threats on his life' and 'the exposure on Pacific Coast Highway is a lot greater than in a helicopter.'...'Maharaji's use of a copter keeps his limousine and entourage away from the narrow winding ridge roads and off the crowded highway.'

[Can you handle the suspense, will he win? Nope!]

Article #2: Los Angeles Times, July 7, 1985

The one-time 'perfect master' of Divine Light Mission has been denied permission from the Country's Regional Planning Commission to triple the number of helicopter landings annually at his Malibu mountain-ridge estate.

..six landings were originally allowed in 1980 because Maharaji agreed to install a 45,000-gallon emergency water storage and pumping system...

'First you wanted six; then you wanted 12; now you come back and want 36,' said commission Vice Chairman Sadie Clark to Maharaji's attorney, Linda Gross.

'I can absolutely see no reason why this is necessary. We cannot favor one applicant over another, and there's not any justification for this.'...

Gross said Maharaji needs the helicopter mostly for travel between Los Angeles International Airport and his home...

Commission Chairman Stanley Gould said, 'I can see nothing to gain by granting the additional flights.

Gross said she did not know if Maharaji would appeal the decision to the County Board of Supervisors.

[How DOES he deal with the terrible burdens of riding in a limousine to and from the airport? My, what the Lord has to go through to bring peace to the world!]
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 16:53:57 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Hassles of the Lord
Message:
I remember the hearing in 1980. All the ashram premies were told to take the day off and go down to city hall and attend the hearing in which he was granted the 6 landings for the water storage tanks. We were there to show community support for the idea. Our only instructions were not to say anything to anybody. Just fill a seat. Have you ever attended a city council meeting where the hall is full and not one community member stands up and says anything? The council kept looking at us wondering when we were going to jump up and demand our Guru got his landing pad, but no one said a word. Worked I guess.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 17:09:30 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Hassles of the Lord
Message:
I remember the hearing in 1980. All the ashram premies were told to take the day off and go down to city hall and attend the hearing in which he was granted the 6 landings for the water storage tanks

I was in the San Francisco ashram at the time, and about about 3 carloads of premies from the ashram drove all night to LA to attend those hearings you mentioned. I declined to go, but I remember talking to Marc Lerner, who was in LA at the time, about it and he said Dettmers told him that the point of filling the room with premies was to give 'the illusion of power.' The idea was to let the commissioners think there were a lot of premie voters in the area, and that if they supported the helipad for their lord and master they would get their votes, even people from San Francisco, who couldn't vote in LA anyway.

Having recently come to SF from Miami, and seeing all that was going on there, I was kind of in shock about Maharaji's greed already. I think that's why I didn't go.

By the way, do you know Marc? I know he had problems with MS, but I also heard he is a long-time ex and does work with disabled veterans.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 17:42:21 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Hassles of the Lord
Message:
Yes, I've wondered how Marc was doing. It came on very suddenly. I was worried about him because there were no plans or contigencies for someone becoming very ill like that.

Marc could be very funny. I remember him taking his shoe off and doing a Get Smart impersonation at one of the large gatherings. He kept his head pretty well for a co-ordinator of a large city. When
I'm ready to lose my anonimity I have some good stories.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 17:49:07 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Hassles of the Lord
Message:
Marc and I had been friends from our days in San Antonio and Chicago. One time around my leaving the ashram, must have been early 1982, he came to SF and I took him to a comedy club called the Punch Line. At that point his eyes were getting pretty bad because that's where the MS was hitting him. The club was kind of dark, and I remember Marc couldn't see at all and had to hold on to the back of my sport coat to keep from falling down as we walked to a table to sit. That worried me too because I realized for the first time how bad his eyesight had gotten.

Marc and I also used to commiserate about the Nazi tactics of David Smith -- really we tried to figure out, behind his back, how to keep him from destroying everything and everyone.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 18:30:23 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Shit, Don't get me started
Message:
I took Marc to the hospital the first time he went blind. I stopped by to visit and he was in the kitchen and told me he couldn't see. He handled himself very well in that situation which must have been frightening.

David Smith was the fuerer of LA at that time. I have no words to describe that prick. No one is more programmed that that silly fuck. My understanding is that he is a trust fund baby and has never had to work. My hope is that MJ finally has all his money and that he gets left high and dry! That'll wake him up! Even at recent programs no one can stand him. He's yelling about how so and so shouldn't be let into programs and how this wouldn't happen except in the US. I have no idea what he thinks his relationship with M is but he is being played like a harp.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 18:41:31 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: David Smith
Message:
Wow, that must have been intense.

Sounds like you knew the same David Smith I did, except I haven't spoken to him in 15 years. The last time I spoke to him I told him he was sadistic and mentally ill and needed psychiatric help. He just looked kind of hurt. It was weird. Yes, he is truly mentally ill, or at least he was. He was also the Fuerer of SF at the time and pulled some really bizarre stuff. I've written about it and I think AE has it on his webpage.

As I have said before, he was so cruel and nuts that he was really the person who made me doubt Maharaji profoundly and made me see M didn't know, let alone care about, any of his devotees, including the ashramites, many of whom were very simple devotees, very vulnerable to the pogroms of Mr. Smith, whom M put in charge of them.

I know David went to Yale and came from a wealthy Connecticut family. One time he told me as a young person he got in trouble for beating up some girl. He said it was evidence of the power of his mind. I could see the same sadism in the way he did his job for the Lord.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 20:23:40 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: David Smith
Message:
I was in a meeting with David Smith that was so intense that 2 ashram premies backed their bags and headed for parts unknown, instant ex-premies. In a way he did them a favor. One problem with him is he doesn't have a clue when sizing up people. He's so out of touch with himself he just goes by the book. Excuse me, he goes by what M just told him.

Sounds like Marc is doing okay. I was worried that his condition would put him in a very difficult situation starting over when the ashrams closed. Do you know how he left?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 20:31:31 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: David Smith
Message:
I don't know how Marc left or when, but it must have been sometime after I did. After I left in 1983, I really left. I had zero contact with premies except for 5 or 6 friends, all of whom became ex-premies within the next couple of years. Except for a couple of encounters and a program in SF in 1990, which I went to out of curiosity, and walked out of while M was speaking, I had no contact with premies after that.

Actually, when David Smith wasn't in power, he could be a fairly nice guy. But when he thought he was doing M's bidding, he was the evil Hun and one of the most uptight, miserable, compulsive people I ever met.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 18:47:16 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Marc Lerner
Message:
A few months back I got a report that Marc Lerner is an ex-premie and continues his 20-year fight with MS. I heard he is doing social work with Veterans, some kind of 'visualization' therapy or something like that. It sounded 'new-agy' enough to be something Marc might do. He was living in Santa Monica a few years back, but I don't know where he is now.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 07:31:45 (EST)
From: Billy
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Marc Lerner
Message:
Who gives you the right to speak for other people? Don't declare Marc an ex. That's not your province or role. I'm positive I've seen Marc a lot more recently than you and there's no ex-anything in his makeup whatsoever. He's an amazing man who's fighting a difficult situation and you should mind your own business or at least send him a decent wish. Confine yourself to your Lexis/Nexis searches 'til you learn how to be human.

Billy
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 10:54:59 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Billy
Subject: Marc Lerner
Message:
Why don't you stick to the facts yourself, Pal? Just tell us when you saw him and correct our info or whatever.

If it's so problematic for you, you could confine yourself to premie websites. We are interested in finding out the truth and will continue to be with or without your presence. If you didn't notice, we are rigorous discussing M but the informal tone about Marc Lerner indicates that nothing is being stated as absolute fact. We are actually soliciting information if you want to share it.

But you're welcome to spend your time elsewhere. No one is begging you to post here.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 13:05:17 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Billy
Subject: Marc Lerner
Message:
Billy, I was told this about Marc by someone who also has seen him recently. As I said, I haven't seen him myself so I was passing along the information. I frankly don't think whether he is an ex or not has anything to do with whether or not he is 'amazing' or fighting a difficult situation, nor is it any reflection on his or anyone's character. I have positive recollections of Marc and I have said so. I think it's you, Billy, who is so defensive that you consider it 'inhuman' to even suggest someone might not be into M anymore. That's your view, not mine.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 17:03:30 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Radio-Salami
Message:
JW: He deserves those special priviledges because he is a direct descendant of the radio-salami line of gurus..... come on, get with it!
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 21:10:35 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Mike
Subject: Radio-Salami
Message:
he is a direct descendant of the radio-salami line of gurus

Thanks, Mike. I've struggled with that goddam word for the last year, but now I finally have a workable pronunciation that I can actually remember [snicker]
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 15:22:28 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: For VP...Self-'Knowledge'
Message:
Hi VP,

I am very curious what your 'experience' is with the meditation techniques, seeing that you...um...'received' them with 'Virtually' no involvement with EV/DLM, BM, a discontinued (dropped) aspirant process, etc.?

'That you were 'revealed' them through the net. (I'm being a little facetious with the quotes, of course).

Seriously...

What's it like for you? 'Just the meditation with no other linkages, concepts, beliefs, dependencies....?

'And I promise I won't jump on you for any words or phrasings that may include 'this ______' 'that_______' 'hard to explain' etc.

I can explain to the best of my scientific knowledge what a sunset is (why it is so), but describing how it feels when viewing it, or what I experience in the 'wonder' of it, is where poets, painters and photographers can sometimes do more justice.

Best,

Miloochie

PS If this is in the archives, you'll have to forgive me, because I have attempted to go through some of them...but, it's just huge. If it is there, any idea which archive to look in?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 17:19:57 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: MY experience of 'Knowledge'
Message:
Great! I log on to quit the forum and now THIS! (snicker)

First of all, how do you know that I have 'virtually no experience with DLM, EV,BM'? I have had plenty of hang ups from 25 years (give or take a few) of indoctrination by premies close to me. Thankfully for me, I have been able to rid myself of these crazy ideas with the support of people here. One crazy idea was that Maharaji might be a perfect master like Jesus. Another idea I had adopted was that Jesus taught 'this knowledge.' Another idea was that 'Knowledge' was going to change my life and be the most special thing in it.

The fact that I read the techniques here helped to dispel the myth of what 'Knowledge' was purported to be. 'Knowledge' was this carrot that was dangled in front of me for a long time. I thought it was going to be this incredible mind blowing thing, and it turned out to be some meditation techniques. Well, that's nice and all, but a giant revelation it wasn't. The biggest revelation for me was that there really WASN'T one.

People are always looking for that one thing that is going to give them all of the answers to life. The pie in the sky--the one true love, the greatest rollercoaster or highest high. My experience is that 'Knowledge' is NOT 'the thing'. I guess some premies can get 'that big experience' from working themselves into a devotional state over Maharaji. But I don't experience anything like that and I don't need to. In fact, I don't want it.

I think it's kind of silly to even call it 'Knowledge', because it isn't really a knowledge of any kind in my opinion. It's some meditation techniques. They can give people an experience of peace. I have had a very calm quiet times meditating myself. That's well and good, but let's not call it something it isn't. (Remember, this is my opinion and I was asked!)

Hmmmmmm. What is MY experience of 'Knowledge'? I guess my answer is that it's simply meditation. A relaxing, peaceful, calming thing I can choose to do if I want to. An awareness of my body. I only do music now, because frankly I don't like the other three techniques. The sounds our bodies make are a miracle to me--to risk using a premie phrase, those sounds are 'beautiful'.

To tell you the truth, I don't need to meditate and I haven't done it for a while. There are other ways I can find peace of mind. Playing with my kids, jogging as the sun is coming up, sitting on the beach, listening to some great music, looking at a beautiful painting, laughing with a friend, or being with someone I love all come to mind. Those are the things we are meant to do as humans. I don't believe we were put here to sit all alone trying strenuously to shut off our miraculous senses of perception. (Of course we aren't meant to sit in traffic all day either--so some of us may NEED to sit with our senses turned inward from time to time, eh?) Life's REAL experiences are the things I love and prefer to do whenever possible.

Well, that's my answer. I'm sure the premies will have a field day with it, but I don't care. Not anymore. This is my truth. They are welcome to their own.

Peace,
VP

P.S. I hope I didn't use to many 'this____' and 'that____' phrases for you-- ha ha ha ha ha ha! Thanks for that laugh, Miloochie. You have NO idea how much I needed it today.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 18:47:01 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: My EX-perience of 'meditation'
Message:
VP,

Thanks for that. I misunderstood your journey from a short post way below. Thanks for clarifying it.

Well, that's my answer. I'm sure the premies will have a field day with it, but I don't care. Not anymore. This is my truth. They are welcome to their own.

I wonder if a lot of ex-premies are concerned that if they write that they are still 'experiencing' some/any benefits from medititating with these techniques, that it will cause some sort of anarchy on the forum? Or that they will be publicly ridiculed?

'That somehow, there will be these vocal premies who will make great hay of it and shout, 'You see, Maharaji DID give you a gift and you've just forgotten...etc. etc. etc.' and 'you should recognize that HE was the one who gave it to you...blah, blah, blah....'

I don't see that at all. Even if there is some noise from it. Let them scream. We've all heard it before and we did it too. We came out of it, so what's to fear? (specifically the techniques, that is)

If I buy (or am given 'free' with strings attached) a car from a dealer on some car lot and discover over time that the dealer is corrupt and has very much misled me, even to the point where I was ONLY buying fuel at THAT dealership, because I was conned into believing that this car would ONLY run right on his gasoline...

...do I then throw away the car?

'Damn rotten piece of shit...it's not a Mazarati like he claimed...it's a old volkswagen...I'll just push this bucket of junk off the nearest cliff......'

The dealer is still corrupt, a lier, a cheater. So I don't buy (or get anything so-called free) from there anymore. I stop recommending that dealer. I warn potential customers that they may not be getting quite what they think from that dealer and it's available without strings attached somewhere else. I even speak up to present car owners from that dealership and try to show them that they don't need gas only from that crook.

If I try to tear the car away from them, I'm going to alienate them. They've been driving the car for years and years, thinking it was a Mazarati and driving it like it was one. They believed they WERE in a Mazarati. So maybe they are now discovering what they may have doubted for a long time, that it's really just an old VW. Well, are they discovering that they weren't in a car AT ALL? Any car.?

Do I have to degrade what it is? 'What I may have gotten from it? And MOST importantly what I NOW plan to do with it, now that I no longer believe I have to buy the fuel for it from that corrupt dealer?

There are some, who never got anything out of these techniques. Others, who once they woke up from the dream (read nightmare) found that it just didn't do anything for them anymore. And there is (at least here) a quiet few who have related some benefits from continuing using the techniques.

For those who are coming out of the dream, striving to find reality again (a partly hellish time), whatever they are experiencing from the techniques (even if it IS a delusion too -- it's presently a REAL one for them) from the so-called 'Knowledge.'...is it like the effects of an addictive 'drug'?

What I'm exploring here, VP, is a better understanding of the effects of the 'drug,' JUST the drug, not the drug dealer and his pushers. How much is actually linked to the car/drug dealer who deceitfully claimed, 'you must get your gas from MY station for 'that' car to run properly' and how much can one walk away with, retain, revamp, renovate, re-frame, etc. into their new life free of the cult?

I'm just exploring. And I truly hope that ex-premies will see the benefit in doing so. It would do a whole lot more to help those who are sometimes categorized as 'fence-sitters' than it could be amunition for a deluded premie's argument here. So what? I see nothing to be hesitant or afraid in this regard. To me, it is a completely separate issue to realizing a person is in a cult and leaving that cult. 'Probably would make it a whole lot easier to take the step by step process of leaving it completely behind.

At the very heart of what seduces a person into the aspirant process is at the heart of coming out of it may years later. Yes?

Miloochie

PS I'm experimenting myself, of course, and having mixed results. It's too soon for me to be able to share what my EX-perience with the med. techniques might be in my future. Sometimes I don't use them, because I'm busy dropping self-destructive linkages from the cult.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 19:03:45 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: May I join in?
Message:
Miloochie: I think there are quite a few here on the forum that have continued with the meditation. I, for one, haven't used the techniques since I quit, but I really do believe that I am probably 'meditating' in other ways (to be totally honest about it). For example: I hike alot and like to be out in the wild country. It does wonders for me (more than the techniques ever really did). The effects of the solitude last for weeks, too. What I am likely doing is concentrating (meditating, if you will) on the quiet beauty around me. Occasionally, I will catch myself listening to my tinitus (or whatever it is) because it's so quiet, but I really enjoy and 'connect with' the sound that the wind makes while blowing thru a ponderosa pine tree; it's really captivating. My 'thoughts' become crystal clear in that environment and I really begin to appreciate my mind (rather than hating my mind) while I'm out 'there.'

Anyway, I'm not embarrassed to say that I 'meditate' (or whatever you might call it) in the woods. I just haven't used the K-techniques because they never really worked for me, where nature always did.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 19:57:06 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: May I join in?
Message:
Why soitanly! It coidn't hoit.

Hi Mike,

It's very interesting for me now to go back to the time just before I had my first introduction to anything related to M/K. What was I like, what did I want, what was my passion, what WAS I looking for or wanted more out of life? WHERE WAS I HEADING before I took that wrong turn?

I'm finding it obviously very therapeutic, and also enlightening. One of the 'sales benefits' of K was that you could use it anytime, anywhere. Ironically, like a portion of it, this made great sense to my logical mind. And, I certainly took advantage whenever possilble to couple an experience like you describe in the woods and see if I could also expand it through some 'gentle vibrating.' I never liked the 'stop your mind.' I quess no one did. What I mean is, I was troubled more because I knew I was 'cheating.' (grin) Maybe a lightning bolt would now hit me. Or worse, I had somehow tipped the scales of divine powers and they would go against me. Yikes. 'STILL working on that deeply rooted mental suggestion.

Anyway, I have also been in the woods and was freezing my butt off or eaten alive by mosquitoes. I'm not saying that meditating got me through it any better...I've never found that these techniques have been helpful in handling an emergency or extremely uncomfortable situation. Many claimed that it did for them, but that's where my sceptism would truly kick in.

Do you remember the DLM movie with the animation at the beginning...lost in nature, looking for human truth and not finding it...then through love of another, a broken heart,...etc. then finally, ahhhhh K.

I'm blanking. What was the name of it? LOTU? I saw it at my first satsang invite.

There are so many simple, quite fine concepts, thoughts, even beliefs that were utilized over the years by M, Initiators, ALL of us to make K the 'all encompassing' truth. I see it happening EVERYWHERE (groups, religions, science of the mind type gatherings, even street gangs). 'Have always seen it.

I'm beginning to truly reclaim some wonderful words, phrases, wisdoms that were bastardized and corrupted by M's con. There's nothing wrong with a whole lot of them. It's what was done WITH them, in the name of Gawd, that was/is deplorable.

So, I'm also testing how much of this meditation is worth keeping around, even in a magnificent nature walk, but especially through work and chores, etc.

Boy, do I feel rotten for folks who get nothing but snot out of the nectar technique. It's always been my favourite, and most practical -- like walking and chewing gum at the same time (except, of course, when speaking -- a little tricky).

Miloochie
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 22:10:11 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: May I join in?
Message:
Occasionally, I will catch myself listening to my tinitus (or whatever it is) because it's so quiet, but I really enjoy and 'connect with' the sound that the wind makes while blowing thru a ponderosa pine tree; it's really captivating.

I like the sounds of running water, myself. Being a city boy, I often stop by the fountains just to listen to them. Beautiful. I especially like the little trickling ones. It's like listening to crystal. And looking at water I find incredibly soothing. I also like the smell of it. I guess you could say I like everything about water. Drinking it is fun too. There's nothing better in the whole wide world than a cool glass of water when you're thirsty. Knowledge doesn't hold a candle to it. I sound like Adam Sandler's character in The Waterboy, which was a pretty funny movie, BTW.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 11:33:52 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Water, too!
Message:
Jerry: Yes, I most heartily agree with you. A babbling creek or a flowing spring are among my favorites, too. In fact, just about anything in the backwoods is good for me..... :-)
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 13:11:07 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: And Robyn!
Message:
Hey, Mike, maybe someday you'll come across Robyn in one of her secret hiding places. Wind, water, Robyn... who needs Knowledge?!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 20:44:31 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: My EX-perience of 'meditation'
Message:
I wonder if a lot of ex-premies are concerned that if they write that they are still 'experiencing' some/any benefits from medititating with these techniques, that it will cause some sort of anarchy on the forum? Or that they will be publicly ridiculed?

I don't think so because several of the exes still enjoy meditation. They have said before, 'Why throw the baby out with the bath water?' Sir David would probably have a bit to say on this topic. Hopefully he will chime in.

I know people do have experiences meditating because I have. (Maybe that's what you were really asking me for above, a specific physical experience or sensation??) When I was young I could see light lying in bed at night before dropping off to sleep. It is the same light I see doing the light technique, which is more proof to me that Mahraji doesn't give the experiences, they are part of our inherent nature.

It's just that there are other experiences more enjoyable FOR ME than meditation is. Meditation's good, but for a hedonist like me I guess it isn't enough. Please give me a good romp in the hay with a skilled lover. Give me a fine cigar and a glass of the very best port.

I have nothing against meditation. What I have a problem with is building it up to the heights of an orgasm (snicker) or pretending it will solve all of life's problems or MAKE YOU HAPPY. Using meditation to lure someone into a cult or to get them to devote their life to you is wrong also, IMO.

At the very heart of what seduces a person into the aspirant process is at the heart of coming out of it may years later. Yes? Yes, I agree. That is very perceptive.

Goodnight,
VP
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 17:54:11 (EST)
From: L
Email: None
To: Forum
Subject: My EX-perience of 'meditation'
Message:
I think meditation is great, it's all the trappings as presented by Maharaji that is my problem. Also I think allot of people who meditate, using whatever techniques, think you've got to live an austare (sp) life in order to experience meditation. A few vices can be healthy, as long as they don't violate anyone else. I like what Bernie Segal says; if you abstain and don't live out your fantasies or enjoy life you'll be in group therapy in heaven wishing you had gone for the wild sex, pizza and beer.
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Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 14:43:40 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: My EX-perience of 'meditation'
Message:
well said VP.
I hope you just 'vacation' if you do take a break.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 18:04:44 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: MY experience of 'Knowledge'
Message:
Okay VP I'll bite. If I could be so bold as to paraphrase... in a word, 'nada'.

Spoken like a true man of honor without fear of judgement or the consequences... gives me goosebumps. Sorta like John Wayne. That's OK, I don't think he ever experienced a boundless love and peace at the core of his being either. Oh well... he rode tall in the saddle and that's what REALLY counts.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 19:43:23 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Save yourself the grief, Nil
Message:
Nil,

I think you were made for Maharaji. I've been thinking about that, lately. Not about you in particular but just people who are stuck on Maharaji, in general. I think some people fit like a glove into his world and belong there. The problem is with people who DON'T belong there but somehow get/got stuck in his world. This website is for those people. It helps free them from a world they are uncomfortable in but don't know how to get out of. It also provides a meeting place for people who are free to share their journeys. So lighten up. This forum isn't here to launch an attack on you, personally. If you love Maharaji and what he's given you, maybe it would be wiser if you kept your distance. You're only going to hurt by hearing people badmouth someone you care about. Save yourself the hurt. Stay away.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 20:57:25 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Save yourself the grief, Nil
Message:
I agree Jerry... some people are not made for Knowledge. If the intention for the site was only as as support group I'd gladly stay away. But it's not. It's really an all out attack on Maharaji using the web. So I hang around to offer some input from the other side. No worries about getting hurt... but thanks.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 22:18:41 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: Save yourself the grief, Nil
Message:
It's really an all out attack on Maharaji using the web.

This site was here well before pro-Maharaji sites showed up. The attacks on those sites are actually rebuttals to the validity of what they represent. One thing that was proven is that the 'lives' on Enjoyinglife.org are heavily edited to make sure that only acceptable content is presented to the public. The reaction to M's personal site is basically free voices speaking out where before they never had an opportunity to. Call it therapy. That's really what most of it is. It's also to shed some light on the truth, particularly where M said he never wanted to be a leader or figurehead. The amount of debate that ensued over that was almost comical. 'Just what does M mean by leader? Here, let's look it up in the dictionary'. Please. If M meant something by leader other than what we all took it to mean than why hasn't he come forward to clarify himself? He never does, does he? He says things and then it's left up to you to interpret what he means by it. Nobody can pin him down on anything. 'Just what do you mean by this, master?' That option is not available so to be his student is basically a life of guesswork, right? Whatever you think he means is what you've got to go on even if he really doesn't mean that. I know, I know, it's all about the experience. If you feel 'that love' and know 'that joy' than everything else is just chitter chatter, right? Wrong. There's a truth about Maharaji, the man, the same as there is a truth about you and me. Who is that man when he's not onstage? Do you care? Does it concern you that he preaches against materialism but is a man of wealth himself? How do you reconcile that? Aren't you somehow cheating by doing so? Can that really be reconciled, a master who doesn't practice what he preaches? I don't think so, not without lying to ourselves.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 22:37:34 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Nil
Subject: You're a true inspiration, Nil
Message:
If the intention for the site was only as as support group I'd gladly stay away. But it's not. It's really an all out attack on Maharaji using the web.

So, if you stumbled onto a site that offered support to those people who have been sexually abused by Mahatma Jagdeo, would you be shocked and appalled to see him criticized for being a pedophile? What about someone who harbored that sort of person, and who placed him in a position of responsibility, Nil? Is it grossly unfair to criticize him for it? Is that the sort of person that you might possibly criticize? Are either of them less than golden in your eyes?

Maharaji has gotten rich on the backs of people like us who were gullible enough to do whatever he asked, because we believed then (just like you continue to believe) that he was above criticism or accountablility. So we lined up to give him our money, leave our children in the care of his Great Souls who would sexually abuse them, and we defended him against those who saw what we refused to even look at. We were fools, Nil. And Maharaji was - and continues to be - a fraud.

You're a self-important jerk, Nil, who has appointed himself to be the defender of the indefensible. And you're a pretentious coward in that you view yourself as a spokesperson for fairness and justice - only as long as it allows you keep your own self-deceptions intact.

Maharaji's reputation will always be whitewashed by people like you who will refuse to condemn his behavior, refuse to even judge him for it, live out your entire life in devoted denial and take up his standard to defend him against this 'all out attack'.

This is all beside the point for you, I know. What matters here is that by sticking up for a fraudulent Lord and the pedophile living under his personal protection, that you won't have to admit to yourself or others that you've been had - as had as the rest of us who are so bent on 'attacking' him for it. Maharaji still 'has' you. Unfortunately, all you have is him.
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Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 13:27:50 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: I'm doing my best
Message:
So, if you stumbled onto a site that offered support to those people who have been sexually abused by Mahatma Jagdeo, would you be shocked and appalled to see him criticized for being a pedophile?

I am inclined to believe nothing that is said on this site, not because I'm 'a self-important jerk,… who has appointed himself to be the defender of the indefensible' but because the 'facts' are so full of misinformation, innuendo, and hearsay that they are suspect. And Brian, paedophilia and fraud are criminal offences. If you truly believe you have a case, then put your money where your mouth is and take it to court… or are YOU such a 'a pretentious coward' that you can only lob missiles over the transom without having to get your hands dirty?
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Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 14:17:15 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Nil
Subject: You have very LOW standards
Message:
I am inclined to believe nothing that is said on this site, not because I'm 'a self-important jerk,… who has appointed himself to be the defender of the indefensible' but because the 'facts' are so full of misinformation, innuendo, and hearsay that they are suspect.

I have great respect for your standards, Nil. I'm certain that they apply to Rawat's self-servicing website also - even though you omitted that fact in your post.

And Brian, paedophilia and fraud are criminal offences. If you truly believe you have a case, then put your money where your mouth is and take it to court… or are YOU such a 'a pretentious coward' that you can only lob missiles over the transom without having to get your hands dirty?

I have no personal legal standing in a child-molestation case here. Those that do (did) are facing lack of documentation and a past-due date on the statute of limitations.

As for fraudulence, damages have to be proven. As does intent. Maharaji may well have been as blissfully ignorant as you remain in having made his boastful claims. (See Peace Bomb Satsang. You can call the transcript of his modest little speech misinformation and hearsay too, if you want. After all, Maharaji doesn't even remember saying any of it.)

But I don't have to keep from denouncing him on the World Wide Web as a fraud, Nil. Slander and libel are crimes too, you know. He just knows better than to take legal issue with facts - even if he usually can't face reality any better than you can.
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Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 14:48:55 (EST)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: You have very LOW standards
Message:
But I don't have to keep from denouncing him on the World Wide Web as a fraud, Nil. Slander and libel are crimes too, you know. He just knows better than to take legal issue with facts - even if he usually can't face reality any better than you can.

So slander on Brian... do your worst. You continue to be the person directly responsible for a hodge-podge of fact mixed with hearsay mixed with paranioa, innuendo and outright lies that if legal action ever where to be taken against this site, you'd have a chance to come out into the light of day and back up all that tough talk of yours.
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Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 07:15:40 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Nil
Subject: Nil experience of 'God'
Message:
Hi Nil,

I'm sure, like me, you didn't receive 'Knowledge' until you understood that it was an experience of 'God within' you were about to have, and that the experience was accessed through one of 'four doors' (the four techniques).

After we were initiated, the words 'Knowledge' and 'God' became interchangeable. Maharaji said on more than one occasion, 'Knowledge is God.'

Since I stepped outside the Wembley Arena, the last time I saw Maharaji, I no longer beleive that 'Knowledge equals God'. Knowledge equals meditation techniques. God is big mystery again.

So we're talking about two different belief systems here. What you mean by 'Knowledge' is what I understand to be a big friendly old man with a white beard, sitting on a veranda behind the stars, watching his creation on tv, zapping miracles and chuckling at the folk who think he's mucus flavoured.

Anton el heretico.

(I left another note for you nil, further up the forum, continuing the darshan line thread that was archived.)
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Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 16:23:27 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Nil
Subject: MY experience of 'Knowledge'
Message:
Nil,
Are you a friend of Jack's or something? :)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 11:51:05 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: SHP
Subject: Questions
Message:
Hi SHP,

I just picked up your response to my posting on the '18 wheeler' conversation from the archives. I'm happy you retracted your accusations. But how come you didn't answer any of my questions?

Adios

Anth.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 20:24:56 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: AJW
Subject: Answers
Message:
If I might just hijack this thread, AJW. I remember the other day you asked about who I really was and wanted me to email you with the info. Sorry, I didn't copy your email address but I don't mind giving the info here although I know you won't know me.

I remember you from the seventies from satsang programs in London. I was just a member of the audience and I never knew you on a personal level. You were quite a famous premie and were often asked to give satsang at programs. That's why I remember you so well.

My name really IS David. David Simpkiss, actually and I did live in Stoke ashram in 1973 &74 and lived in several other ashrams in the Midlands; Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Coventry and Rugby until I threw myself out of the ashram in 1974.

After living in my home town of Coventry and being the local (and only) giver of satsang, I moved up to Manchester and then later to London in 1976 where I've been ever since. I became honorary cheese guard and carried the torch for Maharaji, literally, up to his residence. I've not known any premies for years and years now so I found it fascinating to find all these premies or ex-premies on the net. I never fitted in to Maharaji's world and my story of being a premie was a constant trying to put a square peg in a round hole affair.

As you know, the satsang and organisation dried up in 1983. Once after that I heard there was going to be satsang programs again in London so I went to one and really got off on it. There were no more programs after that though. Around 1986 I was talked into seeing Maharaji by an old premie friend. That was the program where he said that he definitely was not God. I never saw him or went to another program or event ever again. By the nineties, I was never going back.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 04:44:50 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Answers
Message:
Hi Dave,

thanks for the reply. I'll send you an email.

Anth.

PS. Do you think SHP will answer my questions? He seemed to be feeling a lot of anger when he answered my email. I hope he's dealing with it alright.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 11:26:04 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Answers
Message:
Thanks, I got your email and will reply in due course. I was surprised that you reckognised the name. Perhaps I'm better remembered than I realise. Hey I'd better watch my back!

But here's a point in Maharaji's favour. He hasn't tried to sue anyone here, as yet. And some of us have been quite blatant in pushing things a bit further each time. Perhaps he is realising that our satires and scandals are the natural result of him being on his pedestal. Perhaps he knows he can't stop it. Perhaps this will go on for years.

And what will happen? The ex-devotees of the Lord of the Universe will be doing him a service. Perhaps we will bring him down to earth. But it's a jolly old pastime isn't it. Yes, I'll put a picture of myself up on my 'Truth about Maharaji' website just so he can see who his 'enemy' (his word, not mine) is.
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Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 10:14:50 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Answers
Message:
Jim has the best explanation of why Rawat doesn't sue anyone. Jim really seems to wish Rawat would sue someone. If Rawat sues he puts himself in the position of getting deposed himself..

Mr. Rawat do you claim to be God?

I never aspired to be a leader or a figurehead

Judge, can you direct him to please answer the question

Imagine the field day that could be had with pictures of 'the lord of the Universe' , questions about Darshan lines, money, planes, devotees, Arti, mahatmas etc....Rawat has A LOT to lose by suing anyone.

Also, the truth is the best defense, and there is a lot of truth telling going on at this site.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 09:20:51 (EST)
From: Stevei
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Questions
Message:
Hi....
Who are u ? ....

Stevei
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Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 05:37:35 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Stevei
Subject: Questions
Message:
Hi Stevei,

My name is Anthony Ginn. I live in South London and I'm in the phone book.

Who are you?

Anth.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 11:31:28 (EST)
From: Stevei
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: New Asset Valuation(100M)
Message:
Well I was just wondering...what are M's known assets:

House in Malibu...valued at 500k in 72....Now I guess 5M to 10M

House in Reigate 2-3M

Jet Plane 10M?

Ferraris etc... 2-3 M

Cash Income from EV of 2-3M per year
Anything more?

I would think its quite conceivable that his Net Worth is Near the 100 M USD....

I guess Mike D and the others are Mr 2% ....well if they are in the Know...then they will have to have some parts of the spoil...Otherwise they are not going to play the game of directors etc
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 12:25:07 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: New Asset Valuation(100M)
Message:
House in Malibu...valued at 500k in 72....Now I guess 5M to 10M

That was the old house in Malibu, the one he got in the 70s. He now as a new, much larger house, I think built in 1992, the plans for which Brian has on the website. It's got to be worth at least $15,000,000, probably more, given the high value of real estate in Malibu. I wonder if he has a mortgage on it?

Jet Plane 10M?

I think the Gulfstream is reportedly worth over $20 million, but according to JM, Maharaji is carrying heavy debt on it. He might be able to provide more details.

I'm sure M's net worth is very high, but he also spends money like water, and always has, so that might not be the case. According to KK he is really bad at finances, and I'm not surprised, given that he never actually had to earn any money, has never been poor, has never had a job, and devotees have always been willing to give him money, despite their own financial conditions. It's a really good gig, at least for him.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 12:38:00 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: New Asset Valuation(100M)
Message:
Maharaji is carrying heavy debt on it. He might be able to provide more details.

I don't know the details about the debts. As far as I know, the gap has always been covered in the past. The premies keep paying for the debts. And who said m has debts ? EVF is indebted ! And the premies gave guaranties for the debts. Not the BM! How could he! That's been one of Yoram Weisz favourite motto for his 'satsangs'. Poor m, how could he have debts?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 12:56:51 (EST)
From: Stevei
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: New Asset Valuation(100M)
Message:
JM what do u mean the Premies gave guaranties for the debts...what kind of gaurantees and what amounts....

Most of these aircrafts are leased..a typical leasing arrangement goes through a leasing company...Since the aircraft now is over 10 years old..I would say the Lease has been paid...

This question of NOT ENOUGH MONEY TO PAY FOR THE AIRCRAFT...I heard that in 87-88...usula tactics of letting these poor premie suckers empty more of their pockets...

My valuation of Ms real estate etc plus other Assets ...seems to indicate that 100M is about right...But then VALUTAION IS NOT JUST BASED ON ASSET VALUE...The Cashflow of a concern or a company has also direct influence on the valuation...So if EV0s net income is say 5 Million a year....that gives it a valuation of 50M excluding the ASSET VALUE....

YAH..I would say 100M is about right...
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 13:24:52 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: New Asset Valuation(100M)
Message:
what kind of gaurantees and what amounts....
Most of these aircrafts are leased..a typical leasing arrangement goes through a leasing company...Since the aircraft now is over 10 years old..I would say the Lease has been paid...


M's new Gulfstream 4 is NOT 10 years old! He got it in 95 or 96, I can't remember. Maybe EV will say. Maybe he's even in a new one these days, who knows!
Before he had a Challenger (1 or 2 of them), and 2 or 3 Lear jets before!

Some premies gave guarantees on their own assets, I've heard from Yoram. Maybe this is all lies, who knows. What's for sure is that he's been flying BIG executive jets, and that there is a constant pressure to get funds to cover the expenses. The details are never made public. You can only try to guess from the known facts. What's for sure also is that those jets are owned by m or pams. I can't imagine the BM giving all his good money to rent a jet, can you imagine this?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 14:23:24 (EST)
From: Stevei
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Out of Date
Message:
You see how out of touch I am...I was obviously talking about the last round of funding in 88 for that aircraft whatever it was....Now its a Gulfstream 4....Why would M want a 20M Gulf Stream 4?

I guess the answer maybe one upmanship on his rich neighbourers..Jee I have a Gulfstream 4..do u want your kids to go for a spin in my GS 4...or to impress his Indian devotees..so that they could shower more ruppies at his feet.....
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 14:30:34 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: New Asset Valuation(100M)
Message:
What's for sure also is that those jets are owned by m or pams. I can't imagine the BM giving all his good money to rent a jet, can you imagine this?

I have seen the way a number of corporations, actually some of my clients, handle corporate jets and based on that, here's what I think M probably does, especially since Elan Vital can only cover EXPENSES he has for doing programs around the world and can't technically pay him a salary or payment for speaking at a program.

The jet is probably owned by a corporation (I guess Swiss), the controlling shares of which are owned by Maharaji, maybe Marolyn and maybe Premlata now that she is old enough. Some other shares may be owned by PAMS or rich premies, but M has the absolute right to buy them out at any time should they become problems (i.e. ex-premies).

Elan Vital then LEASES the jet from this corporation, plus covers all related expenses of Maharaj Ji, when M flies somewhere if it has anything even remotely connected to some EV program or function. That way the money ends up in a corporation and actually generates a profit, which in turn is mostly owned by M and his family. So, technically EV is only covering expenses, but in reality it is paying M money as a profit to his own leasing company to fly his own plane. I would bet this is what happens.

I bet there are similar kinds of arrangements with other cult corporations, like travel agencies, Visions that produces the videos and the Maharaji trinkets, etc. EV contracts with them to do certain things, and M makes a profit as owner of the corporations.

And then of course Amtext just pays him money directly as a 'gift.' He probably has no direct ownership interest in that company, he just works hard to keep the owners of the company devoted so the money keeps flowing.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 14:39:57 (EST)
From: Stevei
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Money Spinner
Message:
I know a guy who has a business jet...what he actually does is use the jet for his own personal and business needs for a fraction of the time...30% ..The rest of the time...he leases out his jet or rent it (like rent a jet) to other executives and companies..it becomes a money spinner for him....I am sure M is not using the GS4 100%, I suspect less then 50% ...and I would guess he is letting it out to other business execs to bring in money...alot of people do that in this business
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 17:23:49 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: I completely agree
Message:
I'm ready to bet anything too that's how the whole thing works. I've discussed this with non premies, and this is their opinion too.

What I really wonder is why the Swiss tax people never checked this. This is absolutely illegal for Switzerland, and would send all of them to jail! Or at least they would get huge fines.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 17:51:00 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: All of who?
Message:
You can bet Maharaji's ass isn't on the line. Odd's anyone?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 13:16:00 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: But did you know!
Message:
Mahrji was the largest individual contributor to Elan Vital in 1996-7. He bragged about this at the Miami program where he gave the slide presentation with the festival food consumption figures for India, like we cared.

He said he gave $16,000 that year. Trying to guilt us into more donations. Even as TTP's (Totally Programmed Premies) my friends and I shook our heads in disbelief. What is he talking about? We wondered if he had taken a side job to come up with this money.

Was that the same year he wanted a letter mailed to all the premies and EV brass said it would be too expensive so he said bravely that he'd pay for it? I think $16,000 was the figure mentioned for the mailing.

He is such a hero, what a dedicated leader that he would prime the pump of donations with his own money for his own gig. What a selfless master, all salutations to him, BHOLE SHRI SATGURUDEV MAHARAJ KI JAI!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 16:00:12 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: John
Message:
'He bragged about this at the Miami program where he gave the slide presentation with the festival food consumption figures for
India'

Wow, showing slides of the food consumption at festivals in India,
gee, I sure have been missing some exciting stuff!

But, you are joking, aren't you? He doesn't really show slides like that, does he? And if he does, it's a joke, right?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 17:01:41 (EST)
From: HALIP
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Food and charts
Message:
Dear John,
Zac is right, he DID go on for a very long time about the food consumption in some festival in India, and he did not only in Miami but also in Rome -- for the celebration of his 25 years in the West, if my memory serves me right. I remember understanding nothing about these jumbled numbers that he kept throwing at us and thinking to myself : 'Why the hell is he bragging about this ? Who cares !' You would have thought, the way he carried on, that he peeled, cooked and served each ounce of this Himalaya of veggies and other food stuff himself. I'm even wondering now if he didn't mention the miles of toilet papers that was needed after all that... Maybe he did, but I was asleep at that crucial revelation. Well, there's liberation for you !

Happy and living in Paris
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 17:12:09 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: HALIP
Subject: Food and charts
Message:
Halip: I think I know why he mentioned this stuff: It's purpose was to quiet all of us oldsters that expected him 'to feed all the people' like he promised he would years ago.

Sorry M, feeding a bunch of premies and potential recruits doesn't qualify as selfless service to humanity..... nice try.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 16:07:27 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: But did you know!
Message:
I remember in one video he told the story of how he chastised some PAMs for making plans on what they were going to do with some land he'd bought, telling them that if he wanted to he could call the cops and have them all arrested for trespassing on HIS land. I remember thinking at the time that I found it rather brash of him to call it HIS land. After all, wasn't it the result of premies' donations and wasn't the land supposed to be for learning more about Knowledge? Where did he get the gall to call it HIS land? It's OUR land is what I felt. Perfect Masters aren't supposed to OWN anything. They're realized souls. They're only here to help those of us who aren't. And where did he get the money to buy his own land, anyway? Like you say, was he moonlighting somewhere to pick up a few bucks for his own personal use? That was a big DRIP in my journey when I heard him staking a claim on that land.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 16:31:17 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: But did you know!
Message:
Right on Jerry! The BM needs an attitude adjustment and that's why posting these facts is so much fun. I mean you try to have a conversation among premies about these things as they are occuring and you will get blackballed. Imagine being surrounded by some of the totally programmed premies that post here. Not one of them will openly question a single thing he does. They can't, it's not tolerated. The premies think your in your mind, Two car garagee knows he's in control.

I am seriously wondering if BM isn't completely programmed himself. The scariest thing about mind programming is that you don't know that you are programmed. If that is the case his thing is super dangerous and spinning out of control like a giant asteroid waiting to hit something or someone.

The singing arti to his father's picture in times of need in the Mischler interview seems to indicate something's amiss.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 17:05:20 (EST)
From: Marshall
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: C.R.A.P.
Message:
I've come up with an acronym for revisionist premies like nil and orlando. It's C.R.A.P.(Classic Revisionist Asshole Premies). I really don't understand how anyone can read the stuff here and stay locked into BM's circus. The C.R.A.P. must be programmed to a degree which is unfathomable to me. They are like the BORG on Star Trek, a collective 'personality' that all work together to fulfill their agenda, defend Maharaji. It's so obvious to any objective person that Maharaji is a greedy fraud. How can the C.R.A.P. continue to defend this bullshit?
By the way Zac, I read that you only became an ex 3 months ago. Congratulations are in order!
You got your self respect back!
Congratulations Zac!!!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 17:47:26 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Marshall
Subject: Thanks Marshall it feels good
Message:
that's all.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 14:17:30 (EST)
From: aoa
Email: None
To: Marshall
Subject: Scat Humor (wrt) C.R.A.P.
Message:
It's C.R.A.P.(Classic Revisionist Asshole Premies).

Nice post, Marshall.

But -- the asshole is our friend -- it lets out the poop. Those classic premies keep it inside! :)
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 06:09:46 (EST)
From: Stevei
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: STAR ENTERPRISES INC OF MIAMI
Message:
Well..the business guy I mentioned above with the Jet Plane...He went to a company owned by an Indian Guy called MR SINGH...who owned this Executive Jet Plane Fitting outfit for fitting the INTERIORS of Jet planes with luxury seats and gold toilets....This business guy thought that it was a cool company and so decided to buy it...When he bought it ...he found the company was bankrupt and he paid the price for a company which went for a SONG...

I wonder is this Mr Singh....RajaJi or M.....Singh is the family name of Mr Rawat.....Prem Pal Rawat Singh...Does anybody know anything about Star Enterprises of Miami
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 19:08:33 (EST)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: New Asset Valuation(100M)
Message:
. He now as a new, much larger house, I think built in 1992, the plans for which Brian has on the website. It's got to be worth at least $15,000,000, probably more, given the high value of real estate in Malibu.
The new house, as I understand it was built around what was left of the old house with substantial upgrading made to the foundation.
MJ in fact once boasted on video how well it was built in terms of its earthquake resistance features exceeding accepted safety standards by two and a half times and similarly for wind, fire etc...
I would agree that the value of the residence by now has exceeded the $15,000,000.
One small point that I would like to correct is that the 'studio' at the residence, is NOT just a SOUND studio, but, a complete MULTIMEDIA studio, that is BOTH audio AND video. Therefor MJ now has the total facility to design and edit the videos including almost all of the computerized special effects, right at his home.
This is no simple soud studio by any stretch of the imagination. When I was at the res. for the amtext shindig in May 96, the studio had still not been fully completed and it was totally draped off from view, at least that part of it which is exposed to the courtyard where the party was taking place.
A little BM anecdote from that day which I think is appropriate here...
After the little gift giving ceremony (which I descibed to you when I first came on the forum discussing amtext) m went into the house no longer than a couple of minutes, and then returned to the courtyard. We all (150 people in attendance) quickly formed a semi-circle around him. No one seemed capable of saying anything to him, but m simply fixed this seemingly very serene, pensive stare or gaze at the direction of the studio. No one spoke a word... it was as if we all knew it was m's way of letting us know that the STUDIO IS IMPORTANT to him and he was sharing this moment of his 'divine' fixation on it... as another way of reminding us how much our work(amtext) was important to him.
I wonder if he has a mortgage on it?
Honestly doubt that. I believe I can recall hearing in a chat with a few people there at the party, that 'it was really beautiful' that the new residence had now been completed(with the exception of the studio ) and that there would be no money owing.
Put it this way ,its not like m would worry about it anyway.
Thats why he has Chuck Nathan (amtext president).
Chuck worries about these things, not MJ. That's his job, his service.
I think the Gulfstream is reportedly worth over $20 million, but according to JM, Maharaji is carrying heavy debt on it. He might be able to provide more details
Exactly, I'd say around $23,000,000-24,000,000.
Here again why should there be debt on the purchase? My understanding on the basis of PAMer statements is that m was always able to flip his planes over at A PROFIT, when it came time to sell,
ie: the lear was bought for $2,500,000 and sold for $4,000,000.
Then there was the first challenger, a used one,that I believe was also sold at a profit, making it possible for m to get the second challenger brand new and stripped so he could himself design and build the interior from scratch. That plane was purchased for close to $20,000,000, and when it was sold to make way for the gulfsream, it too was sold at a profit. At least that's what I can recall hearing. So given that m was making money with his planes, why should he owe or at least be carrying a heavy debt on the new gulfstream? Just wondering.
I'm sure M's net worth is very high, but he also spends money like water, and always has, so that might not be the case. According to KK he is really bad at finances, and I'm not surprised, given that he never actually had to earn any money, has never been poor, has never had a job, and devotees have always been willing to give him money, despite their own financial conditions. It's a really good gig, at least for him.
Personally,I don't think he can even be botherd with precise numbers. He has ( or at least had) an assistant named Katie, who at the amtext party helped him out with the cost of 'la Tierra'
It was purchased for a ridiculously low price and that's why m explained in answering a question ,he had no plans to sell it. But he couldn't remember exactly how low. Was it $30,000 or was it $50,000? He couldn't remember.
He needed Katie to tell him it was in fact $50,000.
Hey JW, afterall what's $20,000 to the LORD... cofee money, right?!
Oh, and JW I think this little story fits in nicely here as we seem to be discussing m's attitude towards money. As told to me by Laundry Lady Divine, Ann Johnston. It involves Michael Dettmers whom we're of course discussing below.
It seems that during his tenure as DLM president, Michael had to come to MJ and in effect tell him,
' Maharaji, we're broke...there's no more money to do anything'
He was freaked out as it was, to have to bring that kind of news to MJ.
So how did the BM respond;
'Take care of it Michael. I will now take my family on a three week vacation to the Bahamas, and when I come back I want to see this problem solved. Its yours to take care of.'
Swear JW, at least that's how Ann told it to me.
And you know what she added, totally blissed out as she says this:
'Don't you just love the way Maharaji is so cavalier with money? I think its just so beautiful to watch him teaching us how not to be attatched... in the way that he relates to money'
I forget how I answered.
But don't knock it JW, that's the kind of thinking that'll get you a retirement job at the residence. Just ask Ann.
One final thought on M's net worth, and I'll take a wild stab at it and say that its $250,000,000, but the thing is this.
WHATEVER, the precise figure of his net worth may be, we have to understand that in fact and in law, many of m's assets aren't even in his own name. This is of course for tax reasons.
In fact and in law, therefor M does not own alot of the assets that are part of his financial empire.
What he does own, are the people who own and manage these assets on his behalf.
Its only because m can own Chuck Nathan, that he can become 'the sole beneficial owner of Amtext.'
Wow, what a thought.
Enough for now,
Later JW, take care,
Nim
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 20:50:38 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: New Asset Valuation(100M)
Message:
'many of m's assets aren't even in his own name. This is of course for tax reasons.'

This is also for protection of the assets. If M is sued he owns nothing, yet controls everything. Very rich people set things up this way.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 23:17:59 (EST)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: New Asset Valuation(100M)
Message:
This is also for protection of the assets. If M is sued he owns nothing, yet controls everything. Very rich people set things up this way.
You're right Zac...it does serve to protect him in that way, no doubt.
But what happens if things go REALLY bonkers in his kingdom, and he feels he can no longer trust some of these people who are holding the assets on his behalf?
Hmm. I find that interesting.
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Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 09:29:51 (EST)
From: Stevei
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: THE SECRET
Message:
Actually this is the way it works......He is the eventual owner of everything...he is not stupid enough to allow his assets to be controlled by someone else

M sets up a company X....The directors of X are Nominee Directors..professionals who are paid to act on behalf of an individual as nominee directors and shareholders.....No one will ever know the real identity of the shareholder or the eventual owner..these are not PAMs ...but Pro Directors..u give them 5k dollars ayear and they will do it..perfectly legal..

Company X ...(Holding Company somewhere registered in an offshore haven...BAHAMAS or whereever)....owns company Y...Company Y owns company Z...company Z owns company A...and so on....

You can never trace who the real ownner is.....

You can create any company in any registration haven...and u set the owner of this company to be X...and you give it Nominee Directors...Bang....No one will ever trace you...

Now you know the secret...
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