Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 42 | |
From: Mar 13, 1999 |
To: Mar 23, 1999 |
Page: 1 Of: 5 |
Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 20:59:12 (EST)
From: JHB Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Brooding (OT) Message: This is mainly off topic, but has some connection with M. When I was a new premie back in 1975 I had sex a couple of times with another premie, and after the second time she became pregnant. She decided to have an abortion, but in my idealistic youth I decided this was murder, and became very upset. I wanted her to have the child and that we would raise it together. During this time, a premie friend who was also a friend of Milky Cole told me that M had told Milky that a baby is not alive until it takes its first breath. This reassured me a little and my friend had the abortion. I never knew of what happened to her after that. I later married another premie who couldn't have children, and accepted that wasn't my destiny. Years passed and I realised I did want children, and also that I didn't love my wife. I left her. Anyway, the point of this story is that I recently started a relationship with a woman who after six months also became pregnant (she was using the after sex pill). I understand that we didn't plan the pregnancy, that it's her body, and that it's her life, but it hurt so much when she had an abortion. I'm not sure why I'm posting this, but this has happened about the same time that my devotion to M has been aborted and it all feels connected. John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 21:45:15 (EST)
From: Sir Dave Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com To: JHB Subject: Brooding (OT) Message: I think it's very relevant to this forum. In the early eighties I had an ex-girlfriend who had gotten into prostitution and wanted to have an abortion. So I arranged for her to have it all done as she was in no fit state to get it together herself. She wasn't connected to Maharaji and neither was I by then but I felt a terrible sadness in helping her get her abortion, even though I wasn't the Father. Sometimes I now wish I'd not helped her get the abortions. (I helped her again a while later). But what is done is done and we can't turn back the clock. But a sadness is a sadness and cannot be denied. Now she has no children and is living with a guy who doesn't seem to be able to give her any. I sympathise with your situation completely due to my above experience. Also, the birth of my two children nearly didn't happen. The first was an accident and the mother wanted to have an abortion. Eventually she changed her mind. And then our second, also a mistake, caused her much suffering during pregnancy and she nearly had an abortion. By this time I didn't want to interfere with her decision. But in the end, she didn't have an abortion. ANd then, myself, I am the result of an affair during 1951. If abortion had been legal in Britain back then, I wouldn't be here now. It is sad to think back to what could have been. It is very painful and cannot be denied. But on the positive side, us guys can become Fathers right up to middle age quite easily. I had my first child when I was 39. Following Maharaji with his stupid heavy trip was not conducive to relationships and children. I would have had children in my twenties if I hadn't believed that bastard and his heaviness. I hope you get it together with someone. It's not too late. WHatever happens I can sympathise and I would blame a lot of this on Maharaji and his ridiculous and sadistic little torture trip. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 14:29:21 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Brooding (OT) Message: I know it's a difficult decision for everyone involved about abortion, giving a child up for adoption, etc. But just because abortion isn't legal doesn't mean women don't get them. Here in the USA, when abortion was illegal, thousands of abortions were performed, illegally, every year and thousands of women died and many more were injured because they were often performed in back alleys by people who were not qualified, or worse, extortionists. And this went on before the Supreme Court finally threw out all the laws making abortion illegal. It's been over 25 years now and in the past several years, the number of abortions performed has dropped significantly. I think this is because people are better informed about birth control. Whenever someone suggests to me that abortion should be outlawed, I think of my 3 nieces who are all attractive, intelligent young women in their early 20s. I'm just grateful that if they ever felt that had to get an abortion, for whatever reason, they could get a safe, legal abortion and not have to threaten their very lives in the process. They should have that choice. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 23:05:45 (EST)
From: aoa Email: None To: JHB Subject: It's relevant, JHB (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 23:29:58 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: JHB Subject: Brooding (OT) Message: Dear John, I am so sorry for your losing babies that you would have loved. I am a woman so it is hard to know exactly what you are feeling. It is the woman's body and so ultimately her choice but I do feel for you and have know a few men in your position. I don't know what else to say to you but just wanted you to know that I feel for you. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 00:39:39 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: JHB Subject: Brooding (OT) Message: I had a similar experience which is very tied into my time with the guru. In fact I had really suppressed it until I started a thread about premie sexuality and it all came back to me. It is very personal, if you would like to email about it my address is Helen RDC@aol.com. The important point I want to get across is that it IS relevant as was said in the post before mine. It may be that at the time you were spaced out on Maharaji and didn't really fully grasp the gravity of the situation or fully grieve the loss of the babies. Also back then we were all very young. We didn't grasp the gravity of sex, period, IMO. I think a lot of self-forgiveness is needed for the behaviors , beliefs, mistakes of that time. I do agree with Robyn that ultimately the woman must make the decision , however in no way do I mean to imply that men do not grieve as much, sometimes MORE than women. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 00:57:29 (EST)
From: Liz Email: None To: JHB Subject: Brooding (OT) Message: I guess this is off topic too but why does Milky Cole keep coming up on this forum? Was he ever an instructor? Why do/did people listen to him? I knew him quite well and I thought he was a real jerk. Once he asked me to massage his feet. Who did he think he was - Jesus! I knew him in the U.K. Did he live in the U.S.? That was really mean telling Penny it was her bad Karma when she got raped. I experienced a couple of very negative incidents with the infamous Milky. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 09:20:09 (EST)
From: Stevei Email: None To: Liz Subject: Milky Cole Message: Milky was heavily on drugs before he met M...and had a close relationshi with M...he was always in tears...and always seem to have a band of woman followers with him...He was an ex-acid head.. I am glad u did not massage his feet... As far as the abortion thing...a baby changes from a feotus to a living individual after 40 days accoding to many religions...when the soul actually enters the feotus..So what M told Milky was wrong..u from the UK liz? Anyway Milky disappeared ...have not seen him for years...and rumours are that he is dead ro gone back to drugs or somthing Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 10:23:00 (EST)
From: Happy Email: None To: Stevei Subject: Abortion + Milky Cole Message: I think the topic is very relevant. The issue of abortion vs. not abortion is an extremely difficult one, which I think many of us have had to deal with. And, there are no easy answers. I remember another premie/pwik-case, when the man wanted an abortion, and also argued that as long as the first breath wasn't taken, there was no soul! He had heavy discussions with a mahatma about this, perhaps he knew about the Milky Cole case. Anyway, Milky Cole (Briton, isn't he) is still alive and well, and still following M, at least he posted once on this forum a few months ago! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 10:51:12 (EST)
From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Happy Subject: Abortion + Milky Cole Message: Hi Happy. You say Milky posted here on the forum a few months ago. What name did he use? I never saw or heard of such a post. Did anyone else see this post? I'd be interested to see it if it exists. Well, a bit interested, not that it's gonna rule my life or anything. I mean I did get a life the other week from 'Savercentre' in Sydenham, South London. It was a special offer for that week only, so I snapped it up. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 20:37:59 (EST)
From: Liz Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Abortion + Milky Cole Message: Sir Dave, I like your sense of humour - reminded me of Bob and Margaret for some reason, maybe the comment about Supersavers! Yes I am a Brit - to whom it may concern.. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 09:58:03 (EST)
From: Sir Dave Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com To: Liz Subject: Who? Message: Forgive me but my memory is not what it was. Who are Bob and Margaret? Are these people I should know about and remember? My full name is David Simpkiss, by the way. AJW remembers my name but that's all. Incidentally, I set up a site for people to contact each other and you can click here to find old friends. Not many takers yet but I'm sure it will pick up. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 10:15:49 (EST)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Bob and Martha is a cartoon(nt Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 21:16:54 (EST)
From: JHB Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Abortion + Milky Cole Message: Firstly, a big thank you to those who have sent sympathetic messages. It's true that back in 1975 I looked to M for rules about how to live (and for many years since). I'm really not sure that the info I got then was from M or not. I seriously doubt it now as I don't think he gives any time to individual premie problems. I don't have a buddhist view on life - there's so much of it, I think maybe nature intends some of it to be expendable. But of course for me, all life from my genes is invaluable, and must be protected, hence my pain. I still think that my relationship with this woman can work, but only time will tell. Regarding Milky, wasn't he the first british premie? I know us brits held him in awe because of his closeness to M. I remember he did a tour of the ashrams in 1974 to rubbish the propaganda in the Divine Times, and apologise for his part in it. It's certainly true that revisionism has been a regular part of Maharaji's life. Can I take this opportunity to thank you all for being here? It really does make a difference. Thank you. John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 00:09:16 (EST)
From: bb Email: None To: JHB Subject: See that george? (nt) Message: tuju Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 13:48:36 (EST)
From: AJW Email: anthginn@yahoo.com To: JHB Subject: First British Premie. Message: Hi John, The first british premie was Brian Kitt, (I think I got his name right but am not dead sure). He later became batter known as 'Saph' after being given the role of 'Mahatma Saphlanand'. I don't know if you ever met Saph, but he was, and from recent reports, still is, a wild guy. Someone who got in touch with me recently through this site, told me they'd met him recently and that he's an ex-premie, alive, well and living in the South West (of Britain). I also remember Milky's ashram tour of 74. It was a tidal wave of soy sauce and gamazio. He'd recently spent some time with Maharaji, who was getting into macrobiotics. When he left our ashram, half the premies were on brown rice diets, everyone was checking in the mirror every half hour to see if they were sampaku (dont ask), and practising knowledge was one big yin yang experience. Take care, Anth. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 18:25:58 (EST)
From: JHB Email: None To: AJW Subject: First British Premie. Message: Anth, You are right - I totally forgot about Saph. I never met him, but he was legendary. All the best, John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 18:53:18 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: AJW Subject: We are ALL sampaku Message: AJW: I thought EVERYONE knew that... ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 11:53:28 (EST)
From: Happy Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Milky Cole Message: Milky's post was one of the first I read - he actually signed it 'Milky Cole', at least below. And he was clearly pro-M. Must have been Nov.-Dec.?? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 12:14:07 (EST)
From: Jethri Email: None To: Happy Subject: Milky Cole Message: The only posting from 'm.c.cole' is on the 'letters' page. I reproduce it here as it is not too long. I don't know if this is Milky Cole or not. WHoever it is, is clearly full of rotten veggies. Dear beloveds, This is the time for breathing in the deeper understanding that you have been exposed to. Please do not get caught up in the crazy speculation of the mind it will drive you crazy and mislead you. Master is a title that is like all other lables and one should look between the lines and feel what is realy going on . Be still for just a moment and breath,----------------- that is whats realy going on and that is our conection to LIFE. Please do not be fooled by the trappings of the gift for that is the way of illusion. Please rise above the concept of what you think it is! or that thought will become your reality and thats a big bummer! Just breathe deep, feel the gift for what it is and dont kill the messenger its his JOB. Blessing and deep felt love to you all. Embrace - m.j.cole@usa.net Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 03:09:47 (EST)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Stevei Subject: Milky Cole Message: Milky Cole lives in Cornwall( South UK) in Penzance or St Ives. I kmet some of his 'followers' some years ago (in St Ives) when I was critical about some spiritual-type book he wrote which he insisted was channelled thru him by you-know-who. Well I'm going down to that part of the country pretty soon. Maybe I'll bump into him and interview him for this forum. Regards Jethro Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 05:50:41 (EST)
From: Sir Dave Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com To: Jethro Subject: Milky Cole Message: I can just picture it. Milky dressed in white robes standing on a hill in Cornwall with his faithful devotees gathered round. He raises his hands aloft and proclaims, 'Maharaji has given me the power to blot out the sun!' Sure enough, a black shadow falls over the sun and eclipses it from view. All is dark throughout Cornwall and Milky's devotees gasp in amazement. Truly this man is the Son of God! I guess you'll be there for the Solar Eclipse this summer. I believe half of Japan have already booked all the hotels and some are paying thousands of pounds for just a few nights in a normal hotel there. I believe we'll get a 95% eclipse here in London. I'd be thinking of going to see it in Cornwall but the place will be stuffed full of tourists. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 11:13:04 (EST)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: To SIr Dave (OT) Message: Did you ever read a book called 'The Mahdi'. The mahdi is the promissed messiah or redeemer that many Muslims are waiting for. Anyway the book is about a scam that the Americans set up. They send in a person who does some sort of miracle (via a sattelite in fromt of 1000s of people who accepted him as the Mahdi...can't remember the rest..but it does turn out a good con for the mahdi guy. I don't think Milky good act humbly enough to get away with it. Regarding Milky Cole's book...well I never saw it. A few new age book shops had heard of it but didn't have any copies. A former (and possibly present) PAM (told me that Milky had asked him to write an introduction. I think he refused to do it. I may be going down to see the eclipse. Most of the people I know down there are premies and don't talk to me any more. I can't imagine why. I have never really challenged any of the premies I know, I have only asked them a few questions that I have asked myself and asked for their opinions of various things(eg Jagdeo etc). Do you know not one has gotten back to me. Maybe they have sussed that I actually use my mind and discrimination. All the best...jethro Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 14:37:31 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: JHB Subject: Maharaji and Abortion Message: In the early 80s an ashram premie who was a good friend of mine got another ashram premie pregnant. This was a terrible disgrace in those days -- a real black mark on what an undevoted premie you were. My friend was a great person, but he, and especially his 'girlfriend' were incredibly immature, had been living in the ashram for years, and even I could tell they were in no position to be getting married. But she was pregnant. I cared a lot about both of them, and didn't feel they should be getting married, but when the subject of abortion was raised, everyone said Mahararji was absolutely opposed to abortion. In fact, when we asked an initiator about this, he said, when someone raised the subject with Maharaji, that abortion was a terrible thing to do, that it would make you 'insane,' or something equally stupid, etc. So these two people got married, very quickly, had the baby, but their relationship was a mess. They were poor, dislocated, divorced very soon, the kid had all kinds of emotional problems and it was a real mess. IMHO they should never have had the kid, never have gotten married, and if it hadn't been for M's comment, which they accepted because he was their living god, they probably wouldn't have. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 01:27:27 (EST)
From: bb Email: None To: JHB Subject: Brooding in rawats effect Message: Hate to just drum a negative drumbeat about the guy in every area, but it just seems to fit. The first and only time I heard he had comment to make about abortion was to a premie sister who kept writing him and asking premies around m about her pregnancy. My guess is she asked marolyn finally to ask him. She was a person around m and she got pregnant during the 79-80 heavy era. She was all involved around the residence and she was distrught because his whole thrust was SO against any personal life of your own at the time. She had long black hair and her guy was tall and reddish hair. The lord finally responded to her messages through other premies close to m. He said, something like this 'how can you turn down this service that gmj ...' Icant remember all the words although I did hear them right after they were said. I had close grapevine during some era's. She wanted out and he was not about to give her one. The tone was a combination of -you made your bed, sleep in it- and -you went against gmj and now you have to pay-. That was the only anti abortion reference that I heard about. Any other situations or comments didn't make my grapevine sources. He also only mentioned dont be involved with drugs and users one time that I know of. It was during the christmas time of 1979-80. It was announced at st johns hall a couple days after christmas 79. He might have come down heavy on thatone sister one time and from then on the premie comments would be 'he is very anti abortion'. As to YOU JHB, 3 of my sisters had them, out of 5 sisters, and as years go by we all change our views on many things. Your innocence in life is still yours and I say you can lean on your innocence and not take blame if you have any doubts about that issue. Of course Sir David is right, if it is an issue than it is. But I vote that innocence is the verdict. You are innocent. We all have quite a few areas that were devastated by the rawat effect. Shattered relations were a rawat specialty. Remember Eknath? Applauded for abandoning his needy family in thier weakness and need. Showing that family doesn't count for a CLEAR person. Only the lord and his desires counts period. Wether we on the surface knew it or not, the programming was destructive and that total. I guess we all knew it. The ultimate ruler made it his theme. Again, he said, 'maharaji means ultimate ruler'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 02:11:03 (EST)
From: aoa Email: None To: bb Subject: egg-nog (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 16:49:22 (EST)
From: And On Anand Ji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: forum Subject: 20th C. Miracles (rant) Message: I think that there've been too many miraculous -- but acceptably real -- inventions, discoveries and constructions since 1901; the higher animal (humankind) that brought them to substance in a finished form (nuclear power plants, semiconductor electronics; the Hoover Dam) was caught unprepared for the psychological consequences of suddenly -- in four generations -- becoming masters of a supreme technological civilization, which by all measures far outranks all previous societies. I believe that the emergence of a Third Reich, a Jonestown -- a Khmer Rouge -- are symptoms of a growing common megalomanic perspective among the populus. We can do no wrong! We command Nature itself! Is it truly a wonder that a certain number of people in this country (USA) went a step further, ripe from seeing Neil Armstrong walk on the moon -- on television, no less -- to adopt and proclaim a thirteen year old as the Lord of the Universe? I believe the scale of that claim -- L.O.T.U. -- fit the times.(*1). The USA has an egotistical reputation on the Internet -- God Bless America! The boy guru was enabled by the cult called The United States of America, IMO -- he didn't do it on his own. He had all kinds of help; all kinds of segments of society are culpable, in his case. Not only in the United States, but in all of the West and the exported Western culture; I do not know about the other cultures he may have similarly affected. I've heard reports! :) I think it takes a lot of courage to speak up on ex-premie.org; I think it's a step in the right direction. This society is ripe for plenty more where Guru Maharaj Ji came from. --- When the dinosaurs became extinct during the final K/T Boundary Event, some 65 million years ago, they vacated a niche which allowed the mammals to flourish. Fred Flintstone never saw a dinosaur of any kind -- they were all gone 62 million years before 'Lucy' arrived as Australopithecus afarensis, some 3.9 million years ago (early Pliocene Epoch) -- the first fully bipedal hominid. Had the dinosaurs not become extinct, hominids would perhaps have never seen their day in the sun. Eighty-five percent of all species became extinct, following the K/T Boundary Event. Many of them were not dinosaurs. --- Had the boy guru not arrived on the scene in 1971, who can guess who else may've arisen in his place -- filled that niche? I'm suggesting there was a niche available -- Guru Maharaj Ji did not have to move mountains to establish his organization. People were more than ready for it. In my opinion, that is. :) -And On Anand Ji ----------- (*1) it also happens to almost spell 'lotus', an unfortunate accident of symbology Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 18:51:06 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: 20th C. Miracles (rant) Message: AOA: I don't think the Maharaji cult was all that unusual. It just got more publicity at the beginning, because of the cultural milieu of the times, from the upheavals and social change in the 60s, and because M was so young. The 'India trip' had hit the West, and M fit into that as well. It was novel, but of course the press got tired of it very quickly and Maharaji ran out of gas just as fast. It quickly settled down into a garden variety eastern cult after that, like serveral others that have been much more 'successful.' I believe that the emergence of a Third Reich, a Jonestown -- a Khmer Rouge-- are symptoms of a growing common megalomanic perspective among the populus. We can do no wrong! We command Nature itself! There are those who say, pretty convincingly, that the Khmer Rouge would have never gotten where it did without the US carpet bombing of Cambodia (killing 600,000 people) and decimating the population to the point where the KR could grow as a movement and take over the country. It was a ruthless genocide that went on, but, unfortunately, that's gone on throughout history, maybe using cruder weapons. I think the Third Reich wasn't all that different from previous militarized, fascist, societies, the difference was the industrial and military means it had that previous societies didn't, and some new military techniques, that allowed them to get into power and inflict war on their neighbors. I think Jonestown started out as a very humanitarian, idealistic endeavor. It was just headed by a paranoid madman who had too much power over other peoples' lives. That has happened plenty of times in the past as well. And I don't think the willingness people had to accept Maharaji as Lord of the Universe was anything new. For centuries people have been taken in my spiritual frauds offering a simplistic solution to the purpose of life and to find happiness. I agree, though, the big social changes that happened in the 60s and early 70s made a lot MORE people open to looking at M, which they might not have done at all, say in the 50s, but that was just a matter of degree. He drew a lot of young people who grew up with the cultural changes that were happening. But even if that weren't true, unfortunately, it seems to be the nature of human beings, that at least a small number of people are vulnerable to charlatans like Maharaji who promise peace and happiness. In that way, he is similar to Jim Jones, and he plays on the same sincerity of people that Jones did. I think it takes a lot of courage to speak up on ex-premie.org; I think it's a step in the right direction. This society is ripe for plenty more where Guru Maharaj Ji came from. I think it might take courage for people who are just getting out of the cult. They have more to lose, because sometimes they have friends or family members who are still in the cult, and they risk losing friends or causing family problems if they find out. I have a lot of admiration for new ex-premies who speak up. I think for people who have been out for a long time, it doesn't take any courage at all. I don't have any premie friends or relatives, so I don't risk anything. I don't take seriously any possible threat of retribution by premies or Maharaji. Despite all the damaging things the cult is, I don't think it's really a violent organization and the only way M knows how to deal with things is to ignore them, just like he said. What I don't understand is why ex-premies who were high up in the organization, like Donner, Bill Patterson, Barbara Kolodney, Gary Ockenden, and a bunch of others, don't speak out as well. They could help a lot of people, and I know some of these people actually read this forum, but never post. HEY YOU GUYS -- ALL YOU DLM, EV BIGWIGS, FORMER INITIATORS AND INSTRUCTORS, ETC. -- IF YOU'RE READING THIS-- END YOUR SILENCE AND START COMMUNICATING. YOU OWE IT TO ALL THE PEOPLE YOU 'INSPIRED' TO GET INTO THE CULT -- HOW ABOUT HELPING THEM DEPROGRAM THEMSELVES????? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 19:21:45 (EST)
From: aoa Email: None To: JW Subject: nice post (nt) [20th C. Mira-] Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 20:07:54 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: JW Subject: 20th C. Miracles (rant) Message: I agree with you that DLM bigwigs could and should speak out- whether they need to cultivate the courage to do so or not- and that they have a responsibility to do so. I don't know about your figures for casualties of US bombing raids in Cambodia. This would put them on par with the KR in Cambodia, and I don't think public opinion in Cambodia is anti-US. I have never seen such figures cited before. Could you quote sources? I think the DLM bigwig issue needs to be addressed and I don't want to lose that issue dues to an off-topic. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 23:03:13 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Runamok Subject: 20th C. Miracles (rant) Message: I don't know about your figures for casualties of US bombing raids in Cambodia. This would put them on par with the KR in Cambodia, and I don't think public opinion in Cambodia is anti-US. I have never seen such figures cited before. Could you quote sources? The best estimates are that the American carpet bombing of inner Cambodia between 1971 and 1974 killed at least several hundred thousand Cambodians and some put the figure as high as 600,000 if you take into account deaths resulting from the destruction of crops, water systems, infrastructure, etc. It was never really covered in the US press; that's why you probably haven't heard much about it; I know I never did. Noam Chomsky has done a lot to publicize this, and there have been some good studies published by people like Howard Zinn. I don't think their findings have ever been disputed. I completely agree about the DLM bigwigs. I think they should come forward. I think part of the reason they don't is that it might be even harder to talk about, and maybe more painful, the higher up you got in the organization, but that's just a possibility. Maybe they don't have computers, maybe they are in mental institutions, or maybe they are following some other guru now. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 01:37:43 (EST)
From: Liz Email: None To: JW Subject: 20th C. Miracles (rant) Message: I wish these people would speak out too. If there is anything to tell. Is Gary the American Gary who went to India in 1970? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 08:10:00 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Liz Subject: 20th C. Miracles (rant) Message: JW, You're figures sound rather inflated and Chomsky wouldn't be the best source to inflate them by, so other sources would be relevant. When I have heard a similar thesis, possibly sourced to Chomsky, the numbers killed were not the primary issue but the destabilization of the government which led to ripe conditions for the Khmer forces to dominate the country. Back to the subject of DLM bigwigs, Donner had been contacted and posted a bit I believe. My impression was he wanted to forget the scene, but it's only an impression. Some PAMs seem to have graduated from poor ashramite to affluent beneficiary- and it's a logical step because they're not going to want to bite the hand that feeds them. I guess we could and should develop a 'bigshot' thread where we try to list the whereabouts and activities of the main biggies. It is disappointing that none of them step forward on the forum. I would think they feel quite guilty if they have left. Funny thing about that, I think they are quite guilty, too. I know that some exes post some names and numbers, like Jean-Michel, and others who wish to remain anonymous. These kinds of posts are great. If you managed to work in the residence for a year or two and post insider stuff, I can understand remaining anonymous. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 14:14:04 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Runamok Subject: 20th C. Miracles (rant) Message: You're figures sound rather inflated and Chomsky wouldn't be the best source to inflate them by, so other sources would be relevant. When I have heard a similar thesis, possibly sourced to Chomsky, the numbers killed were not the primary issue but the destabilization of the government which led to ripe conditions for the Khmer forces to dominate the country. These aren't Chomsky's firgures as I don't think he's ever been to Cambodia. He was quoting the best sources we have, like Edward Herman, and Sidney Schanberg (the guy played by Sam Waterson in The Killing Fields). The deaths of several hundred thousand Cambodians by the US bombing isn't really disputed, even by the US Government. I haven't heard anyone, including Chomsky, say that the killings were the only reason for the KR coming to power, but bombings did both kill many people and disrupt the society to the point where it made their advancement a lot easier. In addition to the deaths, hundreds of thousands of refugees were driven from the countryside into the major cities, like Phnom Penh because of the bombing (Schanberg also reported this as he was in Cambodia until the KR took over.) The total disrpution of the society certainly was a factor in the KR's success. In addition, in order the bleed Vietnam, our enemy, the US has supported the KR, indirectly through its allies, China and Thailand. We also did everything we could to impede the invasion of the Vietnamese (along with the Chinese), the enemy who defeated us in Vietnam, which was the event that finally toppled the KR from power and ended the genocide after upwards of a million deaths. Back to the subject of DLM bigwigs, Donner had been contacted and posted a bit I believe. Donner has never posted that I have ever seen. Jim did meet with him some months ago and posted about that, but Donner himself hasn't ever said anything publicly, at least as far as I have seen. I think it's an interesting issue if PAMs feel they might implicate themselves if they comment publicly. Think M has the goods on some of them? I kind of doubt that, but clearly those involved in the business/financial aspects of M's corrupt world might have been involved in things they aren't proud of. Jean-Michel was anonymous for awhile as 'Mr. Ex' but now he's using his real name. (That IS his real name.) He's made a clean break, and I think we should all commend him for it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 14:25:20 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: JW Subject: 20th C. Miracles (rant) Message: I was under the impression that Donner posted briefly in a new-agey kinda style, a bit patronizing. I remember the posts, so it's just a question of them actually being from him. I think alot of bigwigs fought for Miragey for years and are too tired to fight against him. Miragey won in that sense. He got the best of them. Jean-Michel is to be commended and he's the exception not the rule (so far). I'll have to bone up on my Cambodian history. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 14:47:45 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Runamok Subject: 20th C. Miracles (rant) Message: Run, How long ago was that when you saw the post you thought were Donner's? Did he post something that made you think it was him? Maybe you're right about former PAMS being too tired. KK is about the only PAM I have seen post, and the info KK has posted has been very helpful, to me and to others. KK was the one who said the M dumped the ashrams because he didn't feel they were profitable anymore and that he really didn't think much about it when he did it. I always thought that was true, but when KK actually said it, it hit me hard. I guess I was still, even after all these years, hoping M might actually be less of a slimeball as he was appearing to be. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 20:48:57 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: JW Subject: 20th C. Miracles (rant) Message: Heller visited Donner a few months back. He's living with some other bigwig as his neighbor in Canada. I thought he posted a bit after Jim's visit and I'm sure someone else could confirm or deny that story. For someone to come around to the point of view that prevails here (that M really is a creepy cult-leading ripoff in it for the money and megalomania) , they would essentially have to admit to being guilty themselves. We've heard more than one story of bigwigs being financially looked after in one way or another. Who can say under what conditions people left? Also, a lot of us are nostalgic about some PAMs, and discussion about them usually brings with it a lot of 'so-and-so was really beautiful' and all that. Not all of them, but some of them. I'm of the opinion that they share responsibility and should really step forward. Not only would they be tired, they would also be admitting guilt which is no fun when you're getting old. I know that I look back on things that I did and feel shame or remorse, and they were mostly pretty small things like being an asshole while trying to 'spread knowledge'. Also looking back, it was certain bigwigs declaring the greatness of the 'peace bomb' and urging me to sacrifice everything which did convince me to get involved. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 11:02:14 (EST)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Runamok Subject: bigwigs Message: I think too it is very helpful everytime a 'bigwig' steps forward and tells his or her story. But, I myself think we have to put ourselves in their shoes before we judge them for not coming forward. First of all they were big fish in a small pond, now they are just ordinary people, most of them I would assume, no longer God's right hand men. Probably the transition back to being ordinary is even more difficult for them than it is for the rest of us. I was a nobody and I feel lots of guilt for people I treated badly under the guise of devotion to Rawat. I can imagine that if they are really decnt people they feel a lot of guilt for having been bigwigs...considering a lot of what has gone on here. Also, many of us post anonymously. Bigwigs journeys are more public. They cannot test the waters without a name as easily. At least not and really tell their own journey...and what is really helpful to people who post here is being able to tell their own stories..sometimes anonymously. If you were a regular Joe you can do that. But if your journey makes it obvious who you are? Well, you have to start out with the courage of knowing Rawat will know that you are speaking out and fear any reprecussions that may bring. I admire KK so much for telling her story. It was so brave and personally helpful to me. Anytime a person who knows things about the behind the scenes workings of it all posts I admire them. But I do not go so far as to blame people for not posting. Maybe because posting my journey was so scary for me I have an idea of what feelings they might have about 'coming out' here? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 12:53:47 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: g's mom Subject: bigwigs Message: What you're saying is true, G's Mom, but there's also how much good they can do versus what we smaller fries can do. Money is an issue, too. Maybe some PAM's could do an expose but need to consider doing it as a book. The forum isn't the end all in our efforts (altho. it's obviously a very important point for us). We could become an organization ourselves (I admit, it sounds funny). LOTS of people who post spent huge chunks of their lives on M, not different from PAMs who believed themselves farther along or more special perhaps, but were basically in the ashram mold for much of their lives. And, KK is not the only one posting. Yes, I post anonymously, but it could change according to how organized we are or how we are organized. I hope these bigwigs will hear the call of the forum and start to get involved. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 13:05:43 (EST)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Runamok Subject: a book Message: I think a book would be a great idea. As we all get older there is this chance this story could be lost. And the story of DLM is really a little bit of history. I totally agree that PAMs can do a lot of good. I think too that doing good can be a very healing thing, both for those small fry like myself and bigwigs. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 10:27:18 (EST)
From: Happy Email: None To: JW Subject: Exes, speak up Message: I agree. I would love to hear from Bill Patterson & Mike Donner. What made you stop, what was the final drip. I liked both of you, you were intelligent and nice guys. You could help a lot by speaking up. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 10:24:25 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: 20th C. Miracles (rant) Message: AOA: I don't think that it is/was the 'export of western civilization' that was/is the problem. It was how readily we (westerners) were willing to 'scrap' the entire western civilization/philosophy that enabled us to so quickly fill the void with meaningless EASTERN philosophy. We were very quick (in the 60's and 70's) to say that ALL the earth's problems were caused by western civilization. We were more than willing to beat-ourselves-up over every problem (forever forgetting the good side of technology and its development). There have been numerous problems brought on by western civilization, but we can't blame ANY particular civilization for ALL of the problems of the world. Every civilization has created problems (overpopulation is NOT unique to western civilization, nor is it any more powerfully demonstrated than in the 'east.'). Westerners (and their gastronimic proclivities) aren't the ones 'encouraging' the use of cyanide on the reefs of the world to collect live-fish for the asian marketplace feeding-frenzy, as another example. Now that we've 'imported' our new found eastern way of thought, we should be realizing that it's just as messed up as anything else. If we are going to 'bash' civilization, don't put a 'directional' indicator on it..... CIVILIZATIONS SUCK, large groups of people stacked into tiny spaces (cities) SUCK. IMHO, we were never 'built/programmed' to live this way and THAT is the problem. Small 'bands' of people, yes.... New York City, LA, Chicago, NO! (Again, my rant and my opinion). :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 15:50:55 (EST)
From: And On Anand Ji Email: None To: Mike Subject: Thanks, Mike. Good post! (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 22:39:55 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: 20th C. Miracles (rant) Message: I agree with you. I also think many of the technologies we're capable of have jumped ahead of our deciding upon ethical standards for them--for example genetic engineering. Just because we CAN do it does not mean it is necessarily in the best interest of society for us to do it. But it seems like we may have to learn that the hard way. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 11:31:27 (EST)
From: AJW Email: anthginn@yahoo.com To: nil Subject: Demise of the Darshan Line Message: Hi nil, I was enjoying the thread in which you discussed the reasons Maharaji stopped having darshan lines in the West. It went inactive, so I've picked up the theme. You said, 'In all seriousness Mike he probably gave it up because the press made such a sensational story out of it that it got in the way of his message.' Isn't it the case that, since the seventies Maharaji repackaged himself (or has been repackaged). He has dropped the whole, 'Lord of the Universe' 'Krishna crown' 'I have come with more power than ever before', trip and in public, portrays himself more as 'wise 'renaissance man' type teacher with techniques'. Stopping darshan lines where they're culturally unacceptable was part of this repackaging, and not done because the press were sensationalising it. The press are never allowed anywhere near darshan lines anyway. Any examples of these 'sensational stories'. I like your 'spin' nil. Sounds very familiar. Keep on truckin' Antonio le Heretic. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 02:31:18 (EST)
From: roel Email: None To: AJW Subject: Demise of the Darshan Line Message: I really hear ya AJW- sneaky ways to confirm the spinning codependency coverup- I must defend maharaji I cannot acknowledge anything unnacceptable and state and set a boundary against it. ' he didn't mean it' 'you don't understand- he's misunderstood, he works so hard' how dare I have a real and grounded opinion of mj's behavior all this shit is exactly the kind of tone my mother took when my workaholic father was physically violent towards her. clarity- what a sobering and sometimes painful derail off the polyanna world of constantly making excuses for bm. brave new world Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 03:41:09 (EST)
From: AJW Email: None To: roel Subject: Demise of the Darshan Line Message: Hi roel, You seem to be breaking into poetry and I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. Maybe you misinterpreted my post to nil, which was part of a thread that went inactive. Nil said MJ stopped doing darshan lines because the press made a big deal out of it. I contradicted him, saying it was part of a general 'revamp' of his image. Didn't they teach you about sentences, capital letters and full stops at school? Anton Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 21:21:47 (EST)
From: Marshall Email: None To: AJW Subject: Demise of the Darshan Line Message: I don't think you're being entirely fair here, AJW. I may be reading this into roel's post but I think roel is saying that the reasons Nil and his type have for 'the demise of darshan' don't jibe with reality. That Nil insists the reason was something other than merely a callous business decision and a concern over money and profit vs. human beings and spirituality. That there was some 'loftier reason' for cutting out darshan in the west. Therefore it is a cover up, a codependence to the lord because he can do no wrong. He couldn't just be a typical, petty, wealth collector, worried about the bottom line. No way! I think the comparison to the alcholic father scernario is pretty fitting too. The whole crazy con game seems to be about denial, codependence and self blame, etc. It's classic really. My grammar is certainly far from perfect, but I don't want to be afraid of being judged here, trying to express feelings that are important to me. In my opinion roel got his point through, at least to me, and I feel his post has value, even if it was a little offbeat. I am not trying to start a confrontation with you AJW, and maybe I'd be better off minding my own business. You clear and away have one of my favorite journeys here, and I have nothing but respect for you. I just think you may have misunderstood or became overly critical in regards to roel. I mean every body isn't a former english teacher/writer. Respectfully, Marshall Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 01:21:48 (EST)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Marshall Subject: poetic liscence Message: Now if only I could spell liscence...? I think I get what AJW was objecting to as I am very put of by the poster/s who tend to lapse into Haikus as some sort of defense against logic. As to the content of the poem yes it can be read more than one way. But I think that was the intent and part of why it is written as a poem, so as to be inscrutable. Does that make sense Marshall? I personally feel these poem posts are somewhat cowardly, as the author is not playing by the same rules the rest of us are. I think AJW's journey is one of the best too, and clearly as a writer few of us, perhaps only JW, well and Selene, are going to live up. But spelling and grammar errors are different than taking poetic liscence when one has not been granted it...especially in an arguement. G's mom...who also could take lessons from JW, his mom and AJW in the art of communicating clearly. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 03:12:39 (EST)
From: Marshall Email: None To: g's mom Subject: poetic liscence Message: Hi g's Mom, Right after I sent off that post to AJW I regretted it, but that's one of the perils of this forum stuff, you know? In retrospect I agree that roel can probably communicate in a more understandable standard way and is choosing the vague haiku style reminiscent(sp?) of that we/us/them guy that is so annoying, for reasons similar to what you suggest. I just like the idea of codependence in relation to the gmj's cult, and haven't heard that issue raised here particularly often. I'm also sensitive to people who aren't as well educated as they could be and can't express themselves as well as they would probably like too, although now I'm not sure if roel is actually in that category. By the way I don't know if you know it but I am the same person who used to post as x. I changed my handle to Marshall to avoid any future confusion with anyone new potentially posting as x. It's funny, I remember a long time ago you proposed that I was Hansi and I never replied in an attempt to leave it mysterious, but now I feel like letting you know that I'm certainly not Hansi. If I was I might actually have a little bread, you know? ps. Sorry, AJW for butting in like that, I've just been feeling a little ornery today! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 03:29:09 (EST)
From: AJW Email: None To: Marshall Subject: poetic liscence Message: Hi Marshall, Point taken. My old schoolteacher habits die hard. Anth. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 10:02:56 (EST)
From: g's mom Email: None To: AJW Subject: to Marshall X Message: well I am glad you said that you are ex. I no longer think you are Hansi, I think you are Matt Damon....did you see the thread where some shared the visual images they have of the posters? Actually, I nenver thought you were Hansi, you shared too many details about things that would make it unlikely, it was my attempt to be funny back when people were all saying that so and so was really Rawat posting. I figured you being one of the premie kids that you might as well be Hansi if someone else got to be Rawat. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 11:16:07 (EST)
From: Marshall Email: None To: g's mom Subject: Matt Damon? Message: g's mom, Yea, I caught that thread, pretty funny, VP is Brad Pitt and I'm Matt Damon. Unfortunately the truth is far less glamorous as far as I am concerned. I don't know about VP though? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 11:24:32 (EST)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Marshall Subject: Matt Damon? Message: Funny huh? I think we just get these associations in this communication style that are a trip. VP in my mind looks like Jan Michael Vincent. Why? I have not a clue. Brian, the webmaster, I have an absolute clear image of too but I cannot think of a star it fits with. Katie sent me pics of some of the other regulars who some, like JW, pretty much matched what I imagined, but I still think I met JW at some point and just do not recall. Also, all my images are likely younger than people really are, as many of us are talking about times when we were younger. My image of you is pretty much from that movie Goodwill Hunting. The boy genius struggling in a world he does not fit in with...sort of my image of you as a premie child surrounded by loons with more wisdom than the adults who cared for you. I think that is where it comes from. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 20:35:28 (EST)
From: Archer Email: None To: All Subject: The Darshan Joke Message: I would have to agree with AJW. M has been carefully plotting his course for some time now. So the press put the heat on. Maybe Bob Mishlers early pleas to the then juvenile god incarnate occassionally echoe in his head today. I think it became more obvious as we matured from the age of flower power, into the age of technology and unrivaled communication....Logic, that having scores of people bend down and kiss your feet was becoming very uncosha in the west. Of course bad press only would of made this more obvious to M. In OZ though we are a little behind the rest of the world in many ways. The Pm's down here were blessed with a darshan experience in 97 at a four day programme At IRCC. Only this time it was a little different.We were to wait in a line as usual, then entered a building following the plastic carpet path past the gold covered donation box. The path then turned the corner around a partition and just as you left the building ahead, was a metal detector, the kind you walk through at airports. A group of head honchos ready to take your weapons of you or your small change. The Darshan line because of the use of existing buildings and the lay of the land was about a half a Klm long. Eventually we amassed in a large tent, waiting in seats for the moment ahead.Am I worthy I remember thinking. As I left the Masters feet I came around the corner of this large tent and was surprised they hadn't provided a recovery area, but none the less people took it upon themselves to sit under near by trees to recover. I took the opportunity to sit awhile in case the actual movement of walking detracted from my inner experience. As I was choosing a place to sit I could hear this woman wailing and carrying on at the far end outside the tent.She was well and truly disturbing the peace. M's Brother Rataji and his vuluptuous girlfriend were also at this programme. In fact Rataji was trying to calm this wailing women, along with two others.As soon as the wailing woman had settled a little, Rataji made a beeline for his car, which was waiting of to the left with Miss Vuluptuous standing nearbye watching all that was unfolding. As Rataji approached the car I heard Miss Vuluptuous say ' Do you believe that, is there a docter in the house.' followed by a sniger. Rataji Silenced her immediatly by saying 'Shshsh, get in the car.' I was shocked at the time and a little confused at such a disrespectfull comment for such a precious moment in this womens life. Although I am assuming she was wailing for joy. Truth is certainly stranger than fiction. P.S. And to think that I talked a digruntled Premie into going through the Darshan line that day. Un-educated decisions are allways more obvious in hind sight. Bemused...Archer Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 09:31:04 (EST)
From: Zac Email: None To: Everyone Subject: My new view! Message: As I extract myself from the mental and emotional aspects of belonging to a group that feels that MJ is the lord and there is none other like him. I am seeing his trip and him in a different light. MJ was taught from birth that his father was lord of the day and there was probably little evidence to counter that especially for a 6 - 8 yr old boy. He got on the stage at his Dad's funeral and for whatever reason became the master. The fact that there were negotiations going on about who was going to be the next master etc. etc. is evidence that behind the scenes it was all about power and holding on to it. Young Rawat learned early that it's super easy to lie to the devotees because they are trained to accept everything you say as truth. So his fathers death by slipping on a bar of soap becomes leaving his body in the perfect peace of meditation. No problem whatsoever. This attitude of lying extended to the Mahatma's thus the outrageous lies about seeing all the past master's in meditation from even Charanand. More Hindu stories piled on more hindu lies. Maybe this is a tradition in India everybody lies; I don't know. MJ would make himself look like the model of truth rebuffing that story about speaking 24 different languages. When he infact perpetrated and encouraged and knew about and allowed and told many, many lies. He always sets himself outside the organization he created, controls and is responsible for and then lets the organization or individual premies take the hit, remaining clean and untouched. Sometime around his early adolescent years I believe MJ knew deep down that all of this was a big lie. There is a nice experience inside but the rest is gibberish. I think two events woke him up. The failed Millenium program which proved that the lies don't work as well as they thought in the US, and the failure of the Ashram and Fulltime instructor program where MJ realized he didn't want to be responsible for anyone but himself and his family. The trip was too heavy and he would move on with his life keeping his connections with the premies. They are useful tools. I believe MJ went into therapy in the early 80's and the Doctor asked for some evidence that he was indeed GOD. They both just laughed about it and he went on his way promising to reform. Closed Ashrams, dumped instructors, changed everything. Even stated in NYC program 1985ish 'I don't know what I am.' But I know what I want, he thought and began linking himself to as many profitable situations as possible. Amtext, Dettmers Inc. etc. To ditch the whole thing was an option but he'd have left in shame, lost his International Personality Status and would have had to start washing his own cars. He realized thru experience that he and his organization could be held responsible legally for damages so he tailored his programs and propagation methods to give him the least exposure while maintaining the possiblity someone could receive knowledge. Thus video events. More later.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 09:52:11 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Zac Subject: My new view! Message: I've basically come to the same conclusions, except that I figure Maharaji has built a pretty 'solid' rationalization that he actually is 'special' in a way that the rest of aren't. I don't believe that he was able (or even willing) to uproot the lies that the whole DLM trip was founded on (chain of 'Masters', etc). His website stands as a model of a set of badly-chosen beliefs. Re Therapy: That was marriage counseling that he and Marolyn had in the 80's. Not to say that the Lord/Gopi parts didn't come up in the sessions, though. Must have been that counselor's most memorable case - by a LONGSHOT!! I can just picture the guy writing notes furiously... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 10:54:40 (EST)
From: Zac Email: None To: Brian Subject: Solid Rationalization Message: So do you feel that he is sincere? diluded but sincere? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 13:20:12 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Zac Subject: The Satguru's Son Message: So do you feel that he is sincere? diluded but sincere? Sincere is too nice of a word for me to use to describe Maharaji. It implies a benign innocence (to me) that I just can't see him having at this stage of life without it being kept in place by a conscious decision to not view himself realistically. In Bob Mishler's description of him undergoing what I would call a 'mini-breakdown', Maharaji was pranamming to pictures of his dead father. In the complete Peace Bomb satsang that was just sent in (it's now on JM's site, and will be online here this weekend) he expresses his deep devotion to his father, and it's obvious that the great things that he believes he will accomplish in his lifetime will only happen through the 'Grace of Guru Maharaj Ji' - a name used to describe both him and his father. In the History pages online here, Maharaji talked about how his father would use him as an 'attractor' when speaking in villages around India. They traveled together, and I'm sure that he held his father in awe - that he had a deep love and respect for him (with religious overtones, obviously). I doubt that he ever saw Hans as simply a man. He referred to him as a 'great saint' in the PBS. I believe that his belief in Hans as being so much more than a man is the basis for his own rationalization that he himself must be also - if only by his father's grace. That he shared the name 'Guru Maharaj Ji' only complicates his own boundary problems with where his father ends and he begins. There's a sense of timelessness and reincarnated personas that fits in nicely with his religious dogma that the Perfect Master is always present in the world, and that someday the next Master will come. For him to ever REALLY doubt his divinity, he would have to first be willing to doubt his father's. Maharaji has said that he is able to change his mind - that only DEAD 'masters' are unable to change their minds. He also unable to change his mind about the dead, which is unfortunate. All young children can see their fathers as 'gods', but only those who see them later through adult eyes can perceive them as being mistake-prone and self-deceiving human beings. Ultimately, I view him as being trapped in a belief system that allows him to change his outer image of himself (to a degree), but does not allow him to see himself as a fraudulent Perfect Master without having the same realization about his father. Hans will remain saintly in his eyes - as unchangeable as anything else about the dead. And, at some basic level, he will continue to see himself that way - as his father's son. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 15:15:53 (EST)
From: Zac Email: None To: Brian Subject: Well thought out! (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 23:11:13 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: Brian Subject: Rome '77 and Shri Hans Message: I'll never forget Rome '77. At some point in the program M showed some old movies of Shri Hans for maybe the first time in the west. There was a moment when Shri Hans itches the top of his head with his hand. In the very next program with Maharaji on stage Maharaji performed the exact same little itch. It was a noticeable itch because it was, let's say the right hand itching the left side of the head where the forearm is crossed over the head. In my mind, I certainly connected the movie and Maharaji and the implication was that Maharaji and Shri Hans were one and the same. It was too obvious and M smiled when he did his itch. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 00:19:37 (EST)
From: b stone Email: None To: barney Subject: Rome '77 and Shri Hans Message: Yeah Barney, he went all out to push the lord incarnate trip. Remember the handout folder that we got during that festival? inside was a pic. of him and hansi and on the other side was the bad pic. of raja ji and his wifes second child. (raja ji's first). And the stage was made by premies at the last minute because the lord wouldn't cooperate and approve the design until the last minute. The woman who was in charge of the festival was completely stressed out and hadn't slept in many days (according to her, I heard her talk about it). Did you ever work on the stages? I worked on most of them. for many years. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 01:07:21 (EST)
From: barney Email: None To: b stone Subject: worked stage once Message: Yeah, Rome was a trip. Coming, being there, and getting home. I just wish I had seen the Sistene (sp) Chapel. Loved Rome! I was never in the ashram whether or not that is the criteria to work on the stages, but... Somehow, I was at a Divine Sales one afternoon and they told me to build this little platform out of plywood and 2x4s. It was only about 10 inches off the ground. What I didn't know was that there was going to be darshan and all these people at once were gonna be on it. It didn't collapse, but had I known I would have beefed it up more. I did a little backstage work a few times. Yeah, I always admired you stagebuilders! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 03:25:42 (EST)
From: Jethro Email: None To: barney Subject: Rome '77 and Shri Hans Message: 'In the very next program with Maharaji on stage Maharaji performed the exact same little itch' Prem also had(has?) the same habit as his father of biting his lower lip.This also enforced the same bullshit of reincarnation. In this part of the world, we call this a big spiritual wank...and we all know what that can lead to.... He never read his own words about following dead masters. The only difference between following a dead one and a living one is that a seeker could question the living one. But in the case of prempal he doesn't accept questions, so what is the difference? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 17:38:15 (EST)
From: aoa Email: None To: forum Subject: Rome '77 and Shri Hans Message: I think Rome '77 was the only time I crossed the Atlantic (and back again, a few days after crossing over). I was exhausted. I think I slept right on the lawn in front of the Piazza Della Sporte (sp?), as did a lot of arriving premies. I remember longer lines for the toilets and I seem to recall a darshan line at Rome '77. I also slept in public at London/Gatwick airport for that Festival's traveling. A lot of firsts (I was seventeen). Oh. I was still an aspirant then! Son of a gun. He never read his own words about following dead masters. The only difference between following a dead one and a living one is that a seeker could question the living one. But in the case of prempal he doesn't accept questions, so what is the difference? I may be missing your intended point . . . You can't receive K from a dead Master, according to the DLM religion -- have to get it from someone with a pulse. I'm not saying that's how it is; I'm saying that's what I was taught in DLM (by Shri Hans' parchments, mostly, and other indirect sources). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 17:50:25 (EST)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Zac Subject: sincerity Message: I think he is probably is 'sincere', but that makes him more dangerous, not less. He seems motivated by greed, limited only by what he can get away with. And it's all for a good cause, himself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 11:03:07 (EST)
From: Happy Email: None To: Zac Subject: My new view! Message: I also think your view is basically true. There are things we don't know, of course, and I think there are certain aspects that still remain hidden in the closet. I think M really believed, let's say until about the Millenium festival, that he was the satguru. Then came the realization, and after that, mental problems, rationalizations, and so on. Today, I think he is pretty desparate, there's lots of signs of that. His abuse of followers, I think, is a model he has taken at least to some extent from his father, who used to hit his disciples with a stick - something which they welcomed as 'blessings'. In M's case, it takes at times sadistic proportions. But, I guess he finds rationalizations for that too. All in all, it's a sad story. M. Dettmers' home page reveals quite terrible facts. If M's 'Swiss based organization' really made $ 100 million in one year - then, $ 200.000 per darshan is really peanuts, and there's no reason for M to risk his reputation in the West for such small sums! Somebody should make a 'Truth Page' about Dettmers, too! I mean, what kind of rubbish is he really saying: he has organized educational meetings in 25 nations - when it is really a question of religous hallelujah meetings. He should be exposed, really, his costumers should be told what it is all about. He is really lying, he is hiding the truth. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 01:06:05 (EST)
From: Liz Email: None To: Brian Subject: My new view! Message: How do you know M had marriage counselling in the 80's? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 08:39:13 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Liz Subject: MJ marriage counseling Message: How do you know M had marriage counselling in the 80's? The short answer is because he's still married in the 90's, but it's been reported here. Don't ask me which archive, though. Maybe the person who reported it will repost it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 09:33:09 (EST)
From: bb Email: None To: Brian Subject: MJ marriage counseling Message: It was known by many and I think it even made into one of the printed publications. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 17:35:51 (EST)
From: Former Premette Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Interesting Article Message: I found this on the net. This guy quotes the non-guru and his analysis is right from my view of how the cult brainwashed me. Irrationality and the Eastern Mindset 'Do not go by reasoning, nor by inferring, nor by argument' - the Buddha. 'When you do not understand, then you will know'. - Zen student 'Mind always protects what is false. Mind is a black light' - Guru Maharaji Ji 1. Reality is ONE. |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 18:04:33 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Former Premette Subject: Nice article Message: Thanks for posting that. Can you also post the URL (link) to the webpage? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 15:23:40 (EST)
From: Former Premette Email: None To: Brian Subject: URL Message: http://bigissues.interspeed.net/irrationality.html Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 16:23:29 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Former Premette Subject: This was REALLY funny Message: FP: I loved this quote the most, 'He who knows, doesn't speak; he who speaks, doesn't know' - Lao-Tse. SO.... does that mean that since Lao Tze is speaking, that he doesn't know what he's talking about either? For a 'way' that cannot be defined, he sure tries really hard to define it.... he he he :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 13:15:40 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Mike Subject: This was REALLY funny Message: 'When you do not understand, then you will know'. - Zen student I think this poor bugger meant 'When you realize you don't know, then you will understand' (that you don't know of course). These guys and their bullshit platitudes have made more suckers of seekers with their nonsense than can be counted. It just goes to show you how stoopid and easily dooped we can be. Here's my platitude for the ages: 'When you realize that YOU don't know, don't kid yourself that these fuckers do'.-Jerry Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 18:07:29 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jerry Subject: I'm not worthy!!! Message: Jerry: Good one... I pinched it already... hope you don't mind :-) I put this in another post, but here's mine: 'Knowing what I know now, I realize that I know nothing and that there is nothing to know, other than what I know, which is nothing..... Oh my god, I've made it.....' - Mike :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 20:45:35 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Former Premette Subject: EXCEPTIONAL article! Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 13:47:37 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Short Snippets Message: Down below, 'Billy' suggested that I keep posting articles, and of course I want to oblige him. These are short, but kind of interesting nonetheless: New York Times, November 12, 1973 (abstract)(with photographs): The finale of a 3-day event, called 'Millennium '73,' held November 11, in the Houston, Texas Astrodome, included Guru Maharaj Ji speaking on inner peace. He accepted a 'golden swan' while thousands of devotees chanted his praises in Hindi, and sang songs about his being 'Lord of the Universe.' Renne Davis, former antiwar activist, told the assemblage that very soon 'every single human being will come to know the one who was waited for by every religion of all times has actually come.' The Houston police put turnout at 10,000, followers put it at 25,000. New York Times, February 1, 1974 (abstract): Swami A.C. Bhaktivedanta, who founded the Hare Krishna movement in 1965, has denounced Guru Maharaj Ji, aged 16, as a 'cheap cheat' who takes advantage of fools. [Could this be a case of the pot calling the kettle black?] New York Times, November 30, 1974 (abstract)(with picture): Guru Maharaj Ji, 16-year-old 'Perfect Master,' buys English Jensen sports car for $22,000. [Boy, has there ever been inflation in the last 25 years; I paid that much for my Subaru!] Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 18:13:05 (EST)
From: Mike Email: None To: JW Subject: Too Funny Message: JW: This quote is too good... 'Swami A.C. Bhaktivedanta, who founded the Hare Krishna movement in 1965, has denounced Guru Maharaj Ji, aged 16, as a 'cheap cheat' who takes advantage of fools. [Could this be a case of the pot calling the kettle black?]' All the while ACB's devoted minions are dancing wildly as their top-knots slap them in the back of the head..... what a vision he he he :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 13:28:42 (EST)
From: L Email: None To: Everyone Subject: How Many Names...... Message: has this guy used? I mean really in this one life-time, for you cosmic folks. I'm looking through a box of stuff I have in my basement on M and I find a letter from DLM, its a form letter, congratuating me on receiving knowledge. It's signed by Sant Ji Maharaj. So I'm wondering how many names has he called himself over the years; Perfect Master, Guru Maharaj Ji, Prempal Singh Rawat, Sant Ji Maharaj, Satguru Maharaj Ji, Prempal Rawat, Maharaji, Lord of the Universe. Talk about schizophrenic. I've possibly forgotten some of the other names he's called himself. I know the people on this ex-premie site can think of names to call him which I have'nt mentioned here. Go ahead, do a catharsis, let it out... This coincides with all of the name changes he has given his endeavor, ie. festivals changed into events, mahatmas to instructors, devotion to graditude, service to participation, premies to people with knowledge, etc. I think this is done deliberately, to keep people mystified. It's as I read in an eariler post (I think it was by Happy) saying knowledge is'nt knowledge, it's just another definition M uses to make his followers feel special. These changes in language tend to form a gap in perspective and understanding between the older premies and the newer people with knowledge. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 14:00:56 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: L Subject: A Few More Names Message: The Superior Power in Person The Avatar Mother, Father, Brother and Friend Riches, Wisdom, My All The Master Humanitarian Leader (short lived in 1976) The Maker of All Things Created Balyogeshwar Param Hans Sant Ji Maharaj King of Kings God or God Incarnate Greater than God Messiah The Source of Creation The Artist of Creation Protector of the Weary and the Weak The Lotus (blossom, not the car) The Lord Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 15:41:41 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth Email: padded.cell@asylum.com To: L Subject: How Many Names...... Message: Ah, many are the names of the Lord. I think you missed out the obvious one, 'God'. And of course, 'Krishna' and 'The greatest Magician' and recently, 'Hari'. I must go now to meditate on all the names of God. There are many and perhaps infinite names of the Almighty. How fortunate we are! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 21:14:54 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: L Subject: How Many Names...... Message: It's as I read in an eariler post (I think it was by Happy) saying knowledge is'nt knowledge, it's just another definition M uses to make his followers feel special. These changes in language tend to form a gap in perspective and understanding between the older premies and the newer people with knowledge. Keen observation, L. There's no doubt in my mind this is true. Premies are constantly saying that our gripes are outdated and no longer apply to the new and improved Perfect Master model who has evolved into what he always would have been hadn't premies forced him to be the Lord Of The Universe. It's a lie of course. The amount of quotes by M that have been posted prove that, but premies just don't seem to want to realize that in his youth Big M really did act as if he was the Supreme Power In Human Form. In fact I think he even referred to himself as exactly that on at least one occasion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 02:16:05 (EST)
From: L Email: None To: Jerry Subject: To Jerry Message: Oh I think more than one occasion. We used to sing arti to the guy at programs, and to his picture in community centers. Remember the phrase; Our Lord is the Superior Power in person, and of course he ate it up. What I wonder is why he dropped the 'guru' title and stopped people from singing arti, as well as not having followers share 'satsang' in the community centers? Did M come to some great realization that he was'nt the lord? Of all this, I kinda enjoyed hearing satsang from the premies, many of them gave better discourses than maharaji. It sort of pissed me off when he stopped the premies from publicly sharing their experiences (satsang). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 00:51:32 (EST)
From: b-I remember rawat saying Email: None To: L Subject: maharaji=ultimate ruler! (nt) Message: ouyfju Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 09:17:55 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Re: Peace Bomb satsang Message: I received a scan of an old DLM publication that contained the full unedited transcript of Maharaji's 1970 'Peace Bomb' satsang. There is a fascinating underlying context to the words that comes out when the speech is read in its entirety. Maharaji is appealing to those premies who have bailed out of DLM after Hans' death to 'give [him] the reins' of their individual lives, but he is also using that same term in a political sense - that they give him respect as the new leader of DLM. He addresses their objections to his age, the loss of 'social respect' on their part in following someone so young, their doubts about his ability to accomplish his father's 'mission', etc. He urges them to return to the Lotus Feet and start propagating again (this was back in the 'old days' when premies were encouraged to actually talk about Knowledge, rather than just refer people to his videos). There is also an attempt to diminish accusations that he is 'a smuggler'. Seems that there was concern that this was taking place long before Indian Customs agents found jewels in Western devotees' luggage. I'll put it online as a permanent page on the site, but I want to be able to reference the particular publication that was scanned. The person who contributed it used an email address that bounces my reply to him/her. Could whoever sent it please send me the information about the name and date of the publication? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 11:22:45 (EST)
From: L Email: None To: Brian Subject: Re: Peace Bomb satsang Message: I e-mailed you 5 items yesterday, including the full text of the Peace Bomb Satsang. Did'nt know if you got them or not? I've got some other stuff I'll send that I think might be interesting to this forum. I don't know how to create a link, yes I did read the forum instructions. I still could'nt seem to get it. I don't want to burn or dispose of this stuff, although I admitt it would be a good release. Premies often wander into this ex-site saying that we're not telling the truth, etc. Well I can prove everything I'm saying with either a video, poster or publication. You never know, you might end up in a lawsuit with EV/M, in which case his own words can be used against him. Stranger things have happened, ie. Bill Clinton's impeachment. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 12:20:48 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Brian Subject: Hey Brian Message: I think that satsang is already on my site, in the 'famous claims' section. BTW: I've discovered several versions of this satsang, the oldest one being most likely the real one. The other ones are much softer and have obviously been edited. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 04:03:15 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Brian Subject: Read the Peace Bomb satsang Message: in full on my website: The Original Pëace Bomb Satsang Some excerpts: Which foreheads are blessed? Those that bow down to Guru Maharaj Ji. In the Bhagavad Gita, the Lord says that whenever religion becomes corrupted and evil increases, He takes a human body and manifests in this world to destroy evil and to protect His devotees. But when the Lord saw that the troubles His devotees were having to endure had reached the final point, He said, 'My devotees can bear it no longer', and then manifested Himself in a human body. So He has now come to reveal the lost Knowledge and to restore true peace. The Lord, Guru Maharaj Ji, has brought the same Grace with Him that He brought for us before, and if you are not receiving it then come to me. I too have a slogan: give me your love and I will give you peace. Surrender the reins of your life unto me and I will give you such peace as will never die. Come to me, and I will give you liberation. Place the reins of your life in my hands, and I will relieve you of your suffering. The great leaders think that I have come to rule and yes, they are right! I will rule the world, and just watch how I will do it. Even the lion and sheep will embrace each other. Has there been such a king before? So listen to me and act accordingly. Bow down before Guru Maharaj Ji! Today people everywhere listen to film songs and do not find time for Truth. Here I say that such films will be destroyed. Those film actors, those directors, those musicians whose music is causing harm to religions and satsang programmes, will cease their work. They are supposed to remind us of God, of Truth, of Lord Rama, Lord Krishna and Lord Nanak, but instead they only show stories of boys and girls. Look, doesn't Guru Maharaj Ji give you darshan from time to time? It is for you to sacrifice every drop of blood for Him. All I ask is your love, all I ask is your trust, and what I can give you is such a peace as will never die. I will give you such a peace that even the President of America will bow down to you. So, dear premies, one day you will have to sacrifice your social respect, so leave it now. What is there in that? So obey my command, or else you will be drowned. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 13:36:35 (EST)
From: And On Anand Ji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: forum Subject: (wrt) Peace Bomb satsang Message: I've seen watered-down versions of that Peace Bomb satsang -- premies used to keep lithographs of passages like that, and I would read them while hanging out with those premies, while still an aspirant in 1976 and 1977. It's funny what got edited out was really no more henious than what stayed in the version(s) I saw! I'd seen the majority of that satsang in 1976, lithographed, and its title also sounds very familiar. I think it would be helpful to scan the original lithographs onto .jpg files so people can see the kind of printing that was used in those days -- a few samples of the more atavistic (throwback to the old days) tomes would be good preservation of the historical record. IN MY HIGH SCHOOL yearbook, I had the school put a quote from Guru Maharaj Ji, found in one of those DLM newsprint rags, in place of my photograph for my senior year! Most kids had a photo of themselves, with only a small paragraph of quotes (about themselves or their H.S. friends!) in their yearbook. Not me. People I went to high school with can still page through that yearbook, come to the page my Maharaji quote is on, and shake their head, sadly. -- There was a lithograph on something like 'Music of the Spheres' (full color litho or magazine page -- I think it was printed on stock with the 'Cone Nebula' as a backdrop -- it's a very famous photo of that Nebula; I can't recall it's name for sure). Another litho had a clever line about 'shooting rapids' (they meant: 'with a machine gun' but those words don't appear in the text, afaik). I think both were premie expositions (not exactly satsang, but definitely distributed in quasi-DLM channels). I think it's important to show 1999 people what the premies did on their own 'understanding' back then -- there's an entire premie ontology that needs to be catalogued, and the origins of each element traced. I think it important to document Divine Light Mission. I think it important to show the lithographs, and newsprint publications they produced (including 'Divine Times,' and 'And It Is Divine'). 'And It Is Divine' was basically 8x10 lithographs of Guru Maharaj Ji (and family? and Shri Hans?) sitting on thrones (chairs) in different Festival settings, like Caracas and Copenhagen (Festivals were usually referred to by the name of the city and the year). Those lithos in 'AIID' depicted Maharaji, surrounded by pretty floral arrangements and staging, at Festivals. I haven't heard many stories here about all those interiors and staging the premies built -- inside the rented halls! My head was full of that stuff -- the darshan tunnels in particular used a very interesting construction technique ...
I find all that quite damning, in an outside-the-cult context. It was so extravagant -- had nothing to do with anything but pointlessly indulging Guru Maharaj Ji. And if people are going to say, 'Yes, but there were threats to his life' I have to ask you: Why? -And On Anand Ji Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 14:04:22 (EST)
From: bb Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: carpet bombing Message: In the darshan tunnels the carpet was layered thicker and thicker till it was many layers thick in front of him. Giving you a very disorienting feel to walking. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 15:57:29 (EST)
From: aoa Email: None To: bb Subject: Ah! I didn't know that! (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 04:39:12 (EST)
From: ex-mug Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Mahatma Gyan Yoganand Ji Message: Does anyone know what happened to him? ex- Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 12:23:09 (EST)
From: Happy Email: None To: ex-mug Subject: Mahatma Gyan Yoganand Ji Message: Gyan Yoganand was one of the absolute nicest mahatmas, in my opinion, one of those who made an impression. One who made at least me think that there was something to it, even after most of the mahatmas left with Mom and BBJ. That is, all I know is that Gyan Yoganand stayed with M for some years still after the big split. The last I heard about him was in the late 70s. I always wondered whether M fired him, or whether he decided himself to go back to India. I'd like to know more about it, myself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 14:19:58 (EST)
From: ex-mug Email: None To: Happy Subject: Mahatma Gyan Yoganand Ji Message: Happy, thanks for the info. This Mahatma showed me the techniques in 1973, and to be frank, I felt more of a connection with him than I ever did with Rawat - There were rumours that Yoganand had followers of his own back in India before he me GM, don't know if that's true or not though. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 14:42:15 (EST)
From: Happy Email: None To: ex-mug Subject: Mahatma Gyan Yoganand Ji Message: Might very well be. I remember that he was a well-established yogi on his own before turning to M. He told me (and this is his own worlds - I don't swallow it hook/line/sinker) for instance that he used to travel a lot in his astral body (!), and do other things like that, before meeting M, and that it was actually very easy. But after coming to M, he stopped all these things. He ate very, very little - like only mashed bananas and things like that. He felt very much like a 'real Indian yogi'. I always felt that he didn't quite like all the mess in the West, and I was not surprised when he disappeared, whether it was by his own free will or not. Anyway, I liked him a lot. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 04:37:49 (EST)
From: ex-mug Email: None To: Happy Subject: Mahatma Gyan Yoganand Ji Message: A week before receiving k, the only Mahatma in London was Ashokanand for the forseeable future. Every day I went to try and be selected at the Palace of Peace. Anyhow, I had an astral experience one night, where I travelled to a beautiful, amazing Indian type land (lots of ruined temples and wild flowers) and saw in the distance a village. When I arrived at the buildings, a short yogi with a pointed head and big ears came from one of the doorways and called me into the room. He talked for ages and finished by showing me two particular personal goals that I needed to accomplish in this lifetime (I won't go into that) and then said something like, 'and then you will transcend 3rd dimension and enter 4th dimension). I awoke feeling incredible, but had no idea who this yogi was. Three days later, I turned up for selection expecting Ashokanand to be there, but we were informed that he was called out of the country unexpectedly, and that Gyan Yoganand had flown in from Holland to take his place. Then Gyan walked in and it was the yogi that I had met on the astral. So you can understand why I have always felt a connection with Gyan Yoganand. ex- Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 07:58:06 (EST)
From: Happy Email: None To: ex-mug Subject: Mahatma Gyan Yoganand Ji Message: Wow! I just say, wow. That was some story. If you want to find him in the physical, I don't know how, but somebody might have more details of his whereabouts. My guess is that he would be in the Rishikesh area, perhaps in Badrinath or Kedarnath (slightly further north from Rishikesh). But really, these are all guesses. Maybe it's not so necessary to find him, I guess your experience with receiving K was quite overwhelming and convincing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 01:19:14 (EST)
From: Liz Email: None To: Happy Subject: Mahatma Gyan Yoganand Ji Message: Hi Happy, Why do you think Gyan Yoganand is North of Rishikesh? I would love to visit the two places you mentioned one day. I have always wanted to go there for some reason. Maybe because there is supposed to be a Valley of Flowers further North that is spectacular. I had a strange experience once when Gyan Yoganand was on stage in the seventies. His body completely disappeared and then came back again. I have never experienced this at any other time. I'm beginning to think he really is/was a Yogi! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 10:07:55 (EST)
From: Happt Email: None To: Liz, ex-mug Subject: Yoganand + Valley of Flowers Message: The Valley of Flowers can be visited only in June, when it is otherwise quite hot and difficult in India. If you waht to go there, take a flight to Delhi, then go VERY QUICKLY ('cause it's damned hot in Delhi then) by bus or car to Haridwar/Rishikesh, and from there again by car or bus further north. Why Rishikesh, or Badrinath, Kedarnath, Gangotri? Well - Gyan Yoganand was supposed to have meditated there before turning to M. Since that's where he came from, and it is also where you find most yogis in India, the area appears a likely choice. But personally, I don't think it's absolutely necessary for ex-mug to go there. You, ex-mug had a beautiful experience, which came from yourself and your own sensitivity, really, in the first place. Yes, Gyan Yoganand was a 'true' mahatma in the real sense of the word, at least more than most of the others. I'm not convinced that he wants disciples, though. Therefore, I don't know whether it's worthwile to try to find him out. But that's for you and not for anybody else to decide. Haridwar, which was the center for DLM at the time of M's father, is only one hour's drive from Rishikesh. Rishikesh is the capital of yoga in India, the classic place where everybody wanted to go and meditate, previously. First they received initiation by somebody, then they went there to meditate. It is still a place of great beauty, with a larger percentage of yogis then anywhere else in India - the town has a population of 20.000, half of which are sadhus or sannyasins. The number of ashrams is unbelievable - I guess, literally hundreds. That's also where the Beatles visited the Maharishi. Every guru with a little self-respect MUST have an ashram in Rishikesh! If you go further north, along the Ganges, you find more secluded places, where yogis meditate in more peaceful places, caves, and so on - I actually met a Western woman there, too, who had been meditating in a cave for 10 years. You see yogis who never cut their hair or nails, or never lie down, or who wears no clothes, sitting in the snow - literally anything. Spiritual and non-spiritual. I'll leave it up to anybody to decide. But that's the region where you find more 'yogis' than anywhere else. Anyway, I like to visit that area, it's my favorite in India - besides the beaches of Goa and Kerala! Problem is, they should be visited different times of the year. But believe me, in that area you find lots of guys that yogi-wise, and vibe-wise, make M appear bleak. And still - first I went there, I just couldn't believe my eyes. Now, I tend to take a more sceptical attitude to everything. But - I still practise yoga and meditation... I just don't trust gurus anymore, and I don't know whether there really exists a supreme power, whether there's a meaning in life, whether karma exists, and so on... I experienced lots of beatiful things, like all of you - but I must admit, now I can see that at least some of it has been autosuggestion, and when it all comes down to the nitty-gritty, I still don't know whether there is an answer to the ultimate question of life! And I have accepted that probably that's the way it will remain. That we have to accept and live with a certain level of uncertainty. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 11:34:42 (EST)
From: ex-mug Email: None To: Happt Subject: Yoganand + Valley of Flowers Message: Happy, thanks for that :) ex- Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 20:58:23 (EST)
From: Liz Email: None To: Happt Subject: Yoganand + Valley of Flowers Message: Happy Do you really live in Paris? Thanks so much for all the info about Valley of Flowers etc. There was a litle misunderstanding about going to the valley to follow Gyan. I am more interested in the wild flowers but all the same I wouldn't mind knowing what happened to that sweet man. I have been to Rishikesh and I did meet a German woman who had been meditating in a cave for many years. I do find this stuff pretty interesting but I have no intention of following anyone! I love travelling too and would like to go to India again (for a third time). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 10:33:33 (EST)
From: Happy Email: None To: Liz Subject: Yoganand + Valley of Flowers Message: Liz, no, I'm not Halip (=Happy and living in Paris), there's been some confusion about us two (like the two Helens). I understood perfectly well that you were interested in the Valley of Flowers! (Not in following anyone, I guess we all have burnt our fingers...) It's such an intriguing name, isn't it. I like trekking in beautiful places myself. And the Himalayas ARE beautiful, but there are beautiful mountiains and valleys in many places, the Rockies, the Alps, and so on. Actually, I must correct myself, I said 'June' for the best time, I think July is equally fine (for the Valley of Flowers). Well, that ends it for my part! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 03:28:39 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Everyone Subject: X-Rated Video Message: Great news! A friend of mine just discovered he's still owning a darshan video: 1mn50sec of premies kissing the Lard's Lotus Feet! What shall I do with it? Dump it? Sell it to Mr Rawat? Put it on auction? Starting price: $ 1 million Make a video sequence for the Internet? Any advice? The tape is of course stored in a secure place, no need to ask me or come and visit my home! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 03:36:39 (EST)
From: Miloochie Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: X-Rated Video Message: My gawd, make an internet clip of it and see if someone here has the disc room and AV server to run it! Quicktime/Sorenson or RealVideo. Imagine the thousands of tourists (premies since '83) who stop by here and could see it with their own eyes. I just hope to hell I'm not ON IT! Miloochie PS It might take putting those nice little x-rated bars over the eyes of the devotees. Seriously. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 09:01:49 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Miloochie Subject: Blur the premies' faces Message: I guess that's what I'll do, unless Prempal decides to buy the tape.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 15:31:32 (EST)
From: Zac Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: My copy starts at $500,000 Message: Rome 1980, Micheal Donner doing the honors with leaving your lotus feet in the background. Going once, going twice..... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 22:31:06 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: Zac Subject: My copy starts at $500,000 Message: M. Donner thats a name from the past - what heppend to him. He once told me about as a B55 they used to finance thier travels by (this was before airlines had any method of checking) taking their luggae out and then claiming it as lost and getting the max ins. whatever it was. I got the feeling when he told me that he had pulled it since the 60's but that could very well be my old age. It shows there were a lot of scammers in the 'Mission' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 22:44:26 (EST)
From: Zac Email: None To: Ben Lurking Subject: My copy starts at $500,000 Message: Donner was alright! He did my knowledge session. I heard he got together with Barbara 'princess' Kolodney (sp) and lives in the DC area after the BM fired all the instructors. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 16:07:09 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: Zac Subject: My copy starts at $500,000 Message: When I new him he was something like VP of DLM or DUO - preety high up the corporate ladder -I wasn't around when he baecam an instrutctor, i'd been laid off by then Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 18:14:20 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Zac Subject: Donner is in BC Message: Jim met with Donner and Gary Ockenden some months back. They both live in BC, Canada. Jim said that Donner said he 'hates' Maharaji, confirmed the extramarital affairs M was having, and said something about smoking dope with M in Denver in the 70s. I guess they said they both consider M way in their pasts and aren't particularly intersted in talking about him or the cult. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 07:23:51 (EST)
From: L Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: X-Rated Video Message: I don't have any suggestions for your video, but I do have some really choice stuff of my own. One such thing is a 4 page Peace Bomb Satsang Maharaji gave at Hans Jayanti 1970. It opens with; In this age which is coming, everybody will have his deserts. Justice will be done and the proud will be made humble. And the last paragraph starts with; So obey my command or else you will be drowned. The caption says Maharaji was twelve years old when he gave this particular discourse. In retrospect this stuff is really funny/sad. In some ways it pisses me off, in other ways I wonder how could I have been so duped. I also have an audio recording of Maharaji's 1971 Boulder, Colorado satsang under the parachute. I tried to link this stuff onto this ex-site, and then tried to e-mail it to Brian, both without success. I'm a novice at the computer. One of the things I have is a poster from 1972 which really gives me the creeps. Some of you might remember this: Give me your love, I will give you peace. Come to me, I will relieve you of your suffering. I am the source of peace in this world. Why won't you believe me? Why won't you come to me for help? All I ask of you is your love. All I ask is your trust. And what I can give you is such a peace as will never die. I declare that I will establish peace in this world. Many times have I come. This time I come with more power than ever before. But what can I do unless men come to me with love in their hearts and a desire to know peace and truth? Guru Maharaji 1972 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 08:00:02 (EST)
From: Mary M Email: mem_mcgraw@msn.com To: Jean-Michel Subject: X-Rated Video Message: Jean-Michel, I took all my rawat paraphernalia, dumped it in a pile out back, doused it all with citronella oil and burned it. Great release. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 11:36:57 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: JM Subject: X-Rated Video Message: Jean Michel, I'm BEGGING you to make an internet clip and put it on your website or on this one or both. Then people can see for with their own eyes just what Maharaji is REALLY about. How can darshan be denied when a clip of it can be viewed? This is probably one of the most damaging bits of evidence about EV for people who are thinking about beginning the aspirant process. Almost anyone who wants to see it badly enough will find a way to get access to the technology. (People go through worse to get access to Maharaji, right?) It sure would be easier than hanging out in an aspirant program for six months. Seriously, it could help someone who isn't sure whether to get knowledge or not. Don't burn it or throw it out. Maharaji would love that. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 12:44:14 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: X-Rated Video Message: Brian, as you know, I am virtually computer illiterate, but I wonder if two things can be done. One would be as suggested and see if someone can put the video on the site so those with the technology can view it. Second, I wonder if one or two 'stills' from the film can be used as pictures on the website so anyone finding the site can see them. Thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 15:24:57 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: X-Rated Video Message: I have some old videos, including the end of 'Satguru Has Come', with the full-out darshan scenes of Maharaji's bare feet being kissed and devotees giving preents. Another of the videos is 'You are my Savior'. I might have 'Family of Love'. I think that either or both of these films also contain a lot of darshan cuts. I could do .avi videos for posting to the net. I have the technology. The trouble is that the short movies take a lot of disk space, so we would have to have a web page with plenty of room. There are some free webpages that allow a lot of web space.. The way I would do it would be presented 'as is', perhaps with some neutral explanation. I believe in information and that information should be free and accessible. I'm into presenting all the information without judgement. People should be free to make up their own minds. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 15:39:23 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Bobby Subject: X-Rated Video Message: I just tried a one-minute cut from Satguru Has Come. Maharaji is at Guru Puja Montrose 72 sitting on the gazebo. 'Spread this Knowledge' is playing. The premies are lined up and filing past, kissing Maharaji's bare feet and Behari Singh is taking the goods out of their hands and off to the side. The file takes 7.5 megs. It really works well though. I think I'm going to do some more takes and play with them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Mar 20, 1999 at 07:59:39 (EST)
From: Happy Email: None To: Bobby Subject: X-Rated Video Message: That sounds really great. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 04:47:34 (EST)
From: HALIP Email: None To: JM Subject: X-Rated Video Message: I vote to have it put on the net. A plus ! HALIP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 22:54:49 (EST)
From: OLD AGE Email: None To: NEW AGE Subject: NEW / OLD Message: WHEN IT COMES TO THIS WORLD, POWER HAS A WAY OF OVERCOMING ONESELF. WHEN IT COMES TO THIS INSIDE THING. THE PERSON IN ME CAN NOT BE FOOLED. MANY 'evils' ON THE OUTSIDE CAN AND DO...... OVERWHELM US... BUT IT IS ......FIRST ....SEEING THAT THERE 'IS' SOMETHING OTHER THAN THE PERSON INSIDE, AND THEN APPROACHING ......IT........ AS HUMBLY AS POSSIBLE, 'like a child', . AND BEING TAKEN ...TO THE SOURCE OF .....ALL THAT IS. BEING A LOVER, NOT EX LOVER , OF THE PERSON...... AND THING INSIDE, I HUMBLE REQUEST ..............THAT RESPECT TO ALL IS PARAMOUNT. .........WE AS HUMANS TRY TO DO THINGS, SOME WORK OUT FINE..... ......SOME DON'T,, AKA ASHRAMS,, ..THE RELIGION I BELONG TO, AND I AM VERY RELIGIOUS, IS THAT IF SOMEONE WAS TO SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THE INSIDE OF 'MY GUTS', THE PERSON INSIDE KNOWS WHAT IS B.S. AND WHAT'S NOT. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 23:48:52 (EST)
From: bb Email: None To: OLD AGE Subject: middle age Message: Don't fergit, any person may come up to you and tell you something about 'inside' that you take as accurate, but that does not mean that they know what is bs and what is not bs. I know you know that. You got slightly carried away in your enthusiasm there. Respect to all is not to be granted and for good reason. We are by nature flawed and you have to watch out because the next guy will do you wrong even if he intends not to. To not base your operating guidelines on the reality that you are facing, is not in your best interest. Try to accept humans as they are and see the boundries that do exist. You are not dumb but wishful thinking makes a bad friend. Could you restate your comment about '..person..and thing inside'? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 01:56:43 (EST)
From: old age Email: None To: bb Subject: middle age Message: once 'the person' accepted the possibility that something inside existed, the person then proceeded........ to look inside, and when the person found......... something was inside, he proceeded .......to see more and more , always being reminded ........that it is the 'child' which is seeing. the 'reminder'simply pointed out what is there already, 'the person' does not blindly believe, but can not deny the existence of his 'new eyes'. My job is to approach this' 'thing' inside as if it were the last breath, then the '... lady sings Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 07:49:44 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: old age Subject: well aged Message: Why dont you try this. Next time you are at the bookstore, stop at the eastern religious/new age section and read a few chapters of about 10 books. Instructors spent more time than you 'going inside' ask a few about what they actually 'see' inside. You can ask JM to start with. charanand for a couple decades would talk about 'the feet' and so one day I asked him if he sees m's feet inside. He said he 'pictures them in his head about here' and pointed to the lower forehead. He 'pictures' them. I stopped walking with him at that instant because I didn't hear an answer that I could accept. He 'pictured' them. Either they are real or not. Ira spent over 10 years trying to see inside and he met with prem rawat in about 83 or 84 and said 'thank you for letting me see the light' and prem rawat said 'that isn't the light, that's the light of mind' and Ira was stunned and in that helpless hopeless condition again. Ask Ira for that story. What exactly are you bumping into inside? A oneness that has no conciousness of it's own? An intelligence that is mute and waiting to be raped by your entry? A treasure waiting for you to plunder it? The buddhists who meditate more than you, say, meditate on the emptyness. Is this the goal? I saw a book in that section of the bookstore titled; 'the emptyness of emptyness'. I guess THAT is a really realized being writing that eh? He has BEEN THERE. Maybe the god has a block set up so that folks in bodies are stuck with thier human nature and no one can just march inside and become 'it', can 'realize who they really are' and waste thier lives looking in an odd corner of life for what is waiting in front of them if they will open thier eyes and put thier feet firmly on the ground and join the other flawed humans involved in the great game of life. The guys that tell us 'it is greener grass inside' are not wise men. Look at any of them up close. Some of them take great pride in finally coming to some concept of 'compassion'. There isn't anyone that doesn't already have all the features built right in. I feel like the 'teacher' takes all the good students, (there were no bad ones) and puts them in a chair facing the wall and says 'this is the path of life' stay put and serve me and love me because it was me that showed you the wall. You say 'the person does not blindly believe, but can not deny the existence of his 'new eyes'. You are such a good student that you will not disobey the teacher. But, since there is no principal(god), whose office are you going to be sent to if you tell the 'teacher' that after 20 years you are sure you have learned the 'lesson'. The threat of detention is bizarre because the whole 'path' has been a detention. Good luck rediscovering your once strong youthful disobedience nature. The reason kids rebel is so the stifleing adults won't easily box in the next generation. It is natural. Go with it. Declare your independence. The emptyness(god) inside says it's ok. He doesn't have any tyrants on the payroll. It is your breath. It comes with no obligations. Say thank you to the teacher if you must. But you are hereby officially graduated. The new day is just yours now. Don't look back. Surely you have paid your dues. You are no longer obliged. It's ok. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 12:25:05 (EST)
From: aoa Email: None To: forum Subject: (wrt) well aged Message: Even mule premies have got to notice that Maharaji holds open contempt for pretty much everything, especially other people -- and for his premies. I'd like to shed a little of that contempt; I got it from alcoholism in my family; and later, I got more of it from the guru. I patted myself on the back for having contempt. That's what my master taught me: contempt. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 12:28:35 (EST)
From: Helen C Email: None To: aoa Subject: (wrt) well aged Message: I agree, GM is a cynical nihilistic sort of Guru. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 05:16:44 (EST)
From: L Email: None To: OLD AGE Subject: NEW / OLD Message: I totally disagree!! It sounds like a bunch of idealistic crap to me! Respect for all is paramount? Really... You mean you respect the people who chained and dragged that black guy in Texas til his head came off? You mean you respect child molesters? Let's get clear here; I am not and ex lover, I am an ex-follower of maharaji, and that does not mean I'm not in touch with the love inside of me. PWK believe that the only way they can experience love is with M. That's one of the biggest traps that keeps them followers. Just because a person has knowledge and follows maharaji does not mean they are a lover! You sound alittle bit like Us, Me, Tiny, etc. especially with all the capitals in your post. That maharaji is the exclusive source of love in this world is such a major lie. If you can't experience divine love without maharaji then there must be something really screwed-up in your life. Understand that there is no such thing as bullshit, it all counts, the good as well as the bad is grist for the mill. There is evil on the inside of people as well as in the outside world, and vice versa with good. The outside counts as much as the inside. So that's my input..... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 11:27:42 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: L Subject: NEW / OLD Message: There is evil on the inside of people as well as in the outside world, and vice versa with good. If there was no evil on the inside it would never manifest on the outside, and as you say, vice versa with the good. This world is what WE made it, from what came from inside of US. It ain't ALL beautiful in there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 14:22:11 (EST)
From: L Email: None To: Jerry Subject: World Is What We Made It? Message: Hi Jerry, Actually I feel the condition of the world is a product of our evolution. We do'nt see the world AS IT IS, we see the world AS WE ARE. Women see the world differently then men, blacks differently then whites, children differently then adults, rich differently then poor, and so on, and for the most part they all think that their view is the right view. The story of the monk who keeps picking up the scorpion even though it keeps biteing him, and when asked replies it is the nature of the scorpion to bite me, and it is my nature to keep picking it up. Spiritual people tend to believe it is our nature to be blissed out all the time, in love, and peace, and truth. Answer me this question Jerry, please, who put the evil inside of us in the first place (please do'nt give me the Adam and Eve story, I do'nt believe in it) If we believe that things only go from inside out, then how did it get there (evil) inside of us in the first place? There are so many wars (evil) caused by religous and spiritual people over the centuries. Furthermore, India, the birthplace of our infamous master (former master in my case) and where this inside out philosophy is revered, has more than it's share of human rights problems. And I will politely say, Prem Rawat is not someone who I would pick for a role model, and he's suppose to be the ultimate inside-out guy. Warm regards Jerry. If it's working for you great. As the simple premie used to say; all I know it's my experience that it all counts; the inside is just as important as the outside, and mind is just as valuable as heart. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 16:38:47 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: L Subject: I think so Message: L, If the condition of the world is a product of OUR evolution it's still what WE made it. If women, blacks, whites, etc. see the world differently from each other, its still a world of THEIR making. SOMEBODY's responsible for the condition of this world. If not us, who? It's true that a scorpion will bite you, instinctively, if you pick it up. But if the monk thinks its his duty to keep picking up the scorpion, that's his problem, not the scorpion's. You could say the monk has made the world he lives in because of his beliefs. Is he stuck with those beliefs as the scorpion is with its instincts? No, people change beliefs all the time, but a scorpion will always be a scorpion. If the monk got wise and realized that his 'duty' is a self imposed one, he could change the world he lives in by leaving the scorpion to drown. Jerry, please, who put the evil inside of us in the first place I don't know how evil got in us. I'm inclined to think that, like everything else, its a product of evolution. I do know it's there and it manifests in our world in such things as those religious wars and human rights problems you yourself speak of. And I will politely say, Prem Rawat is not someone who I would pick for a role model, and he's suppose to be the ultimate inside-out guy. I wouldn't pick fatboy for a role model, either. I think you're mistaking me for somebody else, perhaps a premie. But I do think Big M is, ultimately, inside-out. Yes, and upside-down too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 17:10:37 (EST)
From: L Email: None To: Jerry Subject: I think so Message: Thanks Jerry, good feedback, and humorus also. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 19:12:00 (EST)
From: Jerry Email: None To: L Subject: Welcome to the forum, L Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 12:26:52 (EST)
From: Helen C Email: None To: L Subject: NEW / OLD Message: Go L!!! Enjoying your posts!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 12:48:58 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: OLD AGE Subject: NEW / OLD Message: Keith?.......Vacol?........Is......that......you?.........??? Are.....you.....off.....your.....meds......again.......??? Are....you.....using.....the......computer.....of......someone......else...? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 20:37:36 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Owen Subject: Trying to track him down Message: Anyone know where a Irish premie called Owen is. I know he moved to the US around the early eighties (possibly LA or San Francisco). I saw him in India in 89 and he was then helping out with technical stuff at the program and I saw him in LA helping out with some computer stuff. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 22:15:34 (EST)
From: Helen Email: None To: Helen Subject: Trying to track him down Message: Hi Helen I am the other Helen on the forum. Confusing huh? How about if I go by the name Helen C. from now on so people don't confuse us. Sorry I don't have info about Owen, you never know here onthe forum a lot of people are lurking and posting here. you may find your old friend, reunions have occured here before! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 23:08:25 (EST)
From: Miloochie Email: None To: Helen Subject: Confused Message: Hi, I'm the other Miloochie and I just thought I'd say Hi. Or is this the Helen I already know? Maybe it's the Helen that the other Miloochie knows. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 08:55:28 (EST)
From: Sir Dave Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com To: Helen Subject: You can try this Message: I've set up a site specifically for contacting people who are either premies or ex-premies. Click here to find old friends and please don't be shy. A lot of people are reading the contact site and there's a good chance of finding people. Another bonus is that it's a permanent site already paid for and will be there for years to come. It's also linked to a lot of searched engines and prominent sites. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 14:32:51 (EST)
From: L Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Excellent Idea Sir Dave (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |