Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 42

From: Mar 13, 1999

To: Mar 23, 1999

Page: 5 Of: 5



JW -:- Maggie Shivers -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 15:33:48 (EST)
__Happy -:- Maggie Shivers -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 15:39:39 (EST)
____Sir Dave -:- Maggie Shivers -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 22:51:29 (EST)
__Zac -:- Maggie Shivers -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 15:44:43 (EST)
____Helen -:- Maggie Shivers -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 17:27:48 (EST)
______Zac -:- Come on Helen just one good -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 18:22:10 (EST)
________Helen -:- Come on Helen just one good -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 22:24:40 (EST)
__________Zac -:- Much better! -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 06:26:33 (EST)
____Sir Dave -:- Maggie Shivers -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 22:55:48 (EST)
______Zac -:- Maggie Shivers -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 06:28:37 (EST)
__JW -:- More on Maggie's Testimony -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 16:23:03 (EST)

JW -:- Another Maharaji Lie -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 14:30:40 (EST)
__Mike -:- Another Maharaji Lie -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 14:53:20 (EST)
____Happy -:- Maharaji Lies -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 15:32:12 (EST)
______Zac -:- Maharaji Lies -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 16:19:02 (EST)

JW -:- The Smuggled Jewels -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 14:18:21 (EST)
__Happy -:- The Smuggled Jewels -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 15:36:15 (EST)
__Bob -:- Today's list of TALL TALES -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 16:45:42 (EST)
____JW -:- List of Bob's Red Herrings -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 17:07:01 (EST)
____JW -:- Apology, Bob -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 18:52:36 (EST)
____cp -:- No go bob -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 04:51:07 (EST)
______Jerry -:- No problem, cp -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 12:02:46 (EST)
________cp -:- No problem, cp -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 22:47:50 (EST)
______VP -:- To cp-naming your son -:- Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 00:10:21 (EST)
________cp -:- To cp-naming your son -:- Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 05:30:58 (EST)
__________VP -:- Maharaji names babies -:- Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 11:13:41 (EST)
____________G'S Mom -:- Maharaji names babies -:- Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 11:46:29 (EST)
______________VP -:- Maharaji names babies -:- Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 12:31:37 (EST)
________________JW -:- Maharaji names babies -:- Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 13:37:20 (EST)
__________________VP -:- Maharaji names babies -:- Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 23:56:24 (EST)
____________________Jethro -:- VP: darshan is an Indian... -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 02:28:55 (EST)
______________________VP -:- Jethro:darshan is an Indian... -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 13:18:16 (EST)
________________________Darshan DeNiro -:- You got somthin gainst my name -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 14:04:41 (EST)
__________________________Agya Ananda Anderson -:- will you marry me? -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 14:07:25 (EST)
____________________________Irving Jones -:- hey, I am fine with being -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 14:11:00 (EST)
______________________________VP -:- To those with unusual names -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 14:25:44 (EST)
____Mike -:- Get some glasses, Bob -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 17:11:07 (EST)
__JW -:- More on the Jewels -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 17:34:33 (EST)
____Zac -:- Maybe the jewelry appeared -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 18:10:59 (EST)
______Sir Dave -:- Maybe the jewelry appeared -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 22:44:04 (EST)
__Mary M -:- The Smuggled Jewels -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 20:03:12 (EST)
____JW -:- The Smuggled Jewels -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 20:07:41 (EST)

Denise -:- Just Curious...Rotten Veges -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 10:48:09 (EST)
__Rick -:- Just Curious...Rotten Veges -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 11:26:49 (EST)
____Happy -:- Just Curious...Rotten Veges -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 11:44:05 (EST)
______Jean-Michel -:- Rotten..Rotten Veges -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 13:21:28 (EST)
__Sir David -:- Just Curious...Rotten Veges -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 12:09:35 (EST)
____Zac -:- Maharji never practised? -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 14:03:13 (EST)
______Orlando -:- how do you know -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 14:09:03 (EST)
________Mike -:- how do you know -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 14:57:22 (EST)
________Zac -:- how do you know -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 15:09:30 (EST)
__________Miloochie -:- how do you know -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 17:32:05 (EST)
____________Zac -:- Maybe we did realize knowledge -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 18:03:19 (EST)
______________Miloochie -:- Good one Zac (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 18:21:07 (EST)
______________Best of Drek! :) -:- Maybe we did realize knowledge -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 08:53:43 (EST)
____________Orlando -:- just for the record... -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 14:41:35 (EST)
______________Miloochie -:- just for the record... -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 15:14:43 (EST)
______________Mike -:- For how long? -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 17:25:37 (EST)
______________Brian -:- Practicing self-deception -:- Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 08:30:55 (EST)
__________VP -:- how do you know -:- Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 12:47:14 (EST)
__CD -:- Just Curious...Rotten Veges -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 17:52:34 (EST)
____JHB -:- Just Curious...Rotten Veges -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 18:38:49 (EST)
______CD -:- Curious peace -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 22:32:53 (EST)
________Denise -:- Curious peace -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 09:43:11 (EST)
__________JW -:- Curious peace -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 14:01:55 (EST)
____________Kara -:- Curious peace/lemons&milk -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 15:24:27 (EST)
______________JW -:- Passive Aggression -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 16:44:11 (EST)
________________Helen -:- Passive Aggression -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 18:56:29 (EST)
__________Orlando -:- Money money money -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 14:50:35 (EST)
____________Denise -:- Money money money -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 16:03:08 (EST)
______________Orlando -:- Money money money -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 16:43:22 (EST)
________________Mike -:- You're right, Orlando -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 17:47:37 (EST)
__________________CD -:- waste -:- Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 17:32:46 (EST)
____________________Mike -:- waste -:- Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 18:27:55 (EST)
____________________VP -:- waste -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 00:12:07 (EST)
____________Jerry -:- Money money money -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 17:03:25 (EST)
______________Mike -:- Money money money -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 17:32:32 (EST)
________________Jerry -:- Money money money -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 20:39:31 (EST)
__________________Mike -:- My joy! -:- Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 10:14:04 (EST)
____________________CD -:- My joy! -:- Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 17:39:19 (EST)
______________________Mike -:- red herring, CD -:- Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 19:49:23 (EST)
______________Liz -:- Money money money -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 22:17:51 (EST)
____________JHB -:- Anyways -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 17:47:54 (EST)
______________JW -:- Anyways -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 18:09:40 (EST)
__________CD -:- Curious peace -:- Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 17:13:30 (EST)
____Rick -:- Just Curious...Rotten Veges -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 20:43:22 (EST)
______CD -:- Just enough -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 22:43:54 (EST)
________Rick -:- Just enough -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 01:07:15 (EST)
__________Sir Dave -:- He said worse to people -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 06:37:24 (EST)
____________ex-mug -:- Sharks -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 11:55:18 (EST)
______________Jethro -:- Ex - keep on hitting ....... -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 13:37:24 (EST)
______________Mike -:- Don't jump off the boat! -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 14:18:25 (EST)
________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Don't jump off the boat! -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 16:10:48 (EST)
__________________Helen -:- Don't jump off the boat! -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 19:07:20 (EST)
____________________bill -:- Don't jump off the boat! -:- Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 23:49:56 (EST)
________________ex-mug -:- Don't jump off the boat! -:- Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 05:48:10 (EST)
____________Helen -:- He said worse to people -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 19:03:25 (EST)
______________Liz -:- He said worse to people -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 22:37:37 (EST)
________________g's mom -:- He said worse to people -:- Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 11:12:08 (EST)
________________Helen -:- He said worse to people -:- Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 18:09:17 (EST)

Sir Dave -:- Self knowledge for $50 -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 00:31:33 (EST)
__Luv -:- Self knowledge for $50 -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 07:12:10 (EST)
____ex-mug -:- Self knowledge for $50 -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 08:33:34 (EST)
______SorryAnon -:- Jonathan Cainer -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 12:40:57 (EST)
________Orlando -:- what is your point? -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 14:06:31 (EST)
__________SorryAnon -:- Re: what is your point? -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 16:16:55 (EST)
____biff -:- Self knowledge for $50 -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 14:54:30 (EST)
______Luv -:- Half Point, Well Taken -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 17:20:37 (EST)
________biff -:- Half Point, Well Taken -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 19:33:02 (EST)
__________Diz -:- Half Point, Well Taken -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 06:17:06 (EST)
____________biff -:- Half Point, Well Taken -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 11:49:02 (EST)
____________Luv -:- A Major Problem... -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 13:26:38 (EST)
________Miloochie -:- Half Point, Well Taken -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 21:01:02 (EST)
__________biff -:- Half Point, Well Taken -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 11:51:59 (EST)
______JW -:- Self knowledge for $50 -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 20:15:41 (EST)
________Ganga -:- Self knowledge for $50 -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 23:32:51 (EST)
__________Luv -:- Self knowledge for $50 -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 01:18:21 (EST)
________biff -:- Self knowledge for $50 -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 12:04:34 (EST)
__name witheld -:- Self knowledge for $50 -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 05:43:49 (EST)

G's mom -:- apology -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 12:03:15 (EST)
__g's mom -:- above to SirDavid and Bill(nt) -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 12:05:00 (EST)
__Sir Dave -:- apology -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 12:27:41 (EST)
____bb -:- apology -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 01:47:04 (EST)
__Sir Dave -:- By the way -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 20:31:37 (EST)
____Luv -:- On Behalf of Others -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 15:52:26 (EST)

Brian -:- The Bill Burke Contest -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 01:38:45 (EST)
__Miloochie -:- I'm splittin' a gut on this! -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 01:49:03 (EST)
____Robyn -:- I'm splittin' a gut on this! -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 03:13:03 (EST)
______Miloochie -:- I'm splittin' hairs -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 13:21:31 (EST)
________JW -:- I'm splittin' hairs -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 13:37:01 (EST)
________Robyn -:- I'm splittin' hairs -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 15:24:30 (EST)
________VP -:- I'm splittin' hairs -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 22:51:07 (EST)
__________Miloochie -:- Virtually yours (ot) -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 00:08:03 (EST)
____________Robyn -:- Virtually yours (ot) -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 03:58:26 (EST)
____________g's mom -:- Virtual sexual relations (ot) -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 11:42:26 (EST)
____________VP -:- Virtually yours (ot) -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 15:44:36 (EST)
______________VP -:- Virtually yours (ot) -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 15:48:10 (EST)
__cp -:- The Bill Burke Contest my vote -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 03:02:20 (EST)
__Robyn -:- The Bill Burke Contest -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 03:08:34 (EST)
__Anonomousie -:- The Burkeoid Contest -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 08:47:20 (EST)
____Sir Dave -:- The Burkeoid Contest -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 12:39:53 (EST)
____Brian -:- The Burkeoid Contest -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 00:00:26 (EST)
____VP -:- The Burkeoid Contest -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 22:47:50 (EST)
______bill -:- The Burkeoid Contest -:- Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 23:58:04 (EST)
________VP -:- The Burkeoid Contest -:- Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 00:19:35 (EST)
__Mili -:- The Bill Burke Contest -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 09:13:54 (EST)
____Helen -:- The Bill Burke Contest -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 10:14:02 (EST)
____Bilovich -:- The Bill Burke Contest -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 00:45:14 (EST)
____Brian -:- The Bill Burke Contest -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 10:16:49 (EST)
__Ophelia -:- The Bill Burke Contest -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 14:12:10 (EST)
__Katie -:- The Bill Burke Contest -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 15:43:35 (EST)
____barney -:- No Billy Club? -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 16:03:10 (EST)
__VP -:- Bill is creative -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 22:40:46 (EST)

tiny tina -:- TRASHING DA HART -:- Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 20:26:00 (EST)
__large marge -:- TRASHING DA HART -:- Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 21:45:11 (EST)
__Runamok -:- no -:- Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 21:49:02 (EST)
____Sir Dave -:- no -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 05:38:13 (EST)
__Memphis Belle -:- TRASHING DA HART -:- Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 22:29:54 (EST)
____NuNu -:- GIANT FARTS EVERYWHERE -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 04:05:15 (EST)
______Luv -:- GIANT FARTS EVERYWHERE -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 07:36:03 (EST)
____TINY -:- TRASHING DA HART -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 06:06:20 (EST)
______Mary M -:- TRASHING DA HART -:- Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 23:59:14 (EST)
__g's mom -:- your post is offensive -:- Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 23:48:25 (EST)
__Luv -:- TRASHING DA HART -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 06:49:49 (EST)
____ME -:- TRASHING DA HART -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 07:33:01 (EST)
______Luv -:- TRASHING DA HART -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 07:51:43 (EST)
______Runamok -:- trashingyourtrashyapproach2us -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 11:43:41 (EST)
__JELLY -:- WHAT DO MORMON'S? -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 12:26:51 (EST)
____Mike -:- WHAT DO MORMON'S? -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 14:17:03 (EST)
__Mike -:- His own son? -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 10:39:08 (EST)

SHP -:- whatever you want to call it -:- Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 11:36:54 (EST)
__Mickey the Pharisee -:- whatever you want to call it -:- Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 12:41:43 (EST)
____SHP -:- You just saved me..... -:- Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 13:15:19 (EST)
______Mickey the Pharisee -:- You just saved me..... -:- Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 18:08:59 (EST)
__bb..bad boy -:- whatever you want to call it -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 01:06:13 (EST)
____SHP -:- whatever you want to call it -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 01:25:42 (EST)
______DON'T MISS... -:- Bill's great poem... -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 12:00:10 (EST)

Brian -:- Got this Feedback -:- Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 09:15:38 (EST)
__Helen -:- Got this Feedback -:- Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 10:02:57 (EST)
____g's mom -:- Got this Feedback..kids -:- Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 11:57:17 (EST)
______g's mom -:- premies parents...more -:- Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 12:24:37 (EST)
________eb -:- premies parents...more -:- Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 22:08:46 (EST)
__________g's mom -:- premies parents...more -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 00:05:20 (EST)
______JW -:- Naming Kids -:- Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 19:30:34 (EST)
________G's mom -:- Satganda Klinkenberg -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 00:07:53 (EST)
__________Helen -:- Satganda Klinkenberg -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 18:50:47 (EST)
______Diz -:- Got this Feedback..kids -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 19:26:57 (EST)
________Brian -:- Got this Feedback..kids -:- Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 22:40:12 (EST)
__________diz -:- Thanks, Brian (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 18:53:47 (EST)


Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 15:33:48 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maggie Shivers
Message:
I knew Maggie Shivers pretty well in the cult when I was at IHQ and when I was Community Coordinator in Miami. Maggie worked as a secretary in the legal department of DLM and was a very nice lady. Anyhow, Maggie disappeared one day, and no one knew quite what happened. Anyhow, I found this article that was interesting about her and about her testimony before a Maryland House Judiciary Subcommittee:

The Washington Post, March 12, 1982:

HEADLINE: Bill on Guardians for Cult Members Elicits Emotional Testimony on Both Sides of Issue

...The bill...would allow a court to appoint a guardian for 45 days when families could produce evidence that a family member was under some kind of mind control.

...The witness who brought complete quiet to the room was Maggie Shivers, a 28-year-old junior at Yale University. She told of joining the Divine Light Mission at age 19 and rising through the ranks during her six years as a member.

'I believed the Guru Maharaj Ji was the Lord and I was created to serve him,' Shivers said. 'I thought deprogrammiing would be worse than death because I had been told by the Guru that I would shatter into a million pieces if I ever left. I was in psychological bondage. Even after I knew about the Guru's 30 cars and his Boeing 707 with gold seat-belts, I rationalized it.'

Shivers was near tears. 'There are children still there, even if they are adults in age, who cannot cry for help. They cannot communicate at all. We have to start...' Shivers' voice broke. She could not finish her testimony....

[Any of this sound familiar?]
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 15:39:39 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Maggie Shivers
Message:
Such a true story. It really should be on these web pages for everyone to read, too.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 22:51:29 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Maggie Shivers
Message:
It will be.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 15:44:43 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Maggie Shivers
Message:
I just keep feeling stupider and stupider. This shit hurts. Especially knowing 3 months ago I was a card carrying member and it's 1999. Jesus God Almighty Somebody smack me up side of the head, please.

Orlando, SHP, Mental retard, my friends behind the iron curtain of his mind control. WAKE THE FUCK UP! THINK! NO MORE BULLSHIT!
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 17:27:48 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Maggie Shivers
Message:
Try not to be so hard on yourself...we all got hoodwinked! Each and every last bloody one of us. It is embarrasing to look back, but think of all the living you have yet to do. Maybe you're not at the 'Oh God I'm so relieved, wahoo! No more of that ten ton weight to carry around!' stage, but you will be and you'll feel better! (:
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 18:22:10 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Come on Helen just one good
Message:
Wack! I know I'll feel better!
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 22:24:40 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Come on Helen just one good
Message:
Alright, WHACK!!! Ya feel better now?? I could haveMinnesota Housewife run into you with Jahn Jahnson's tractorr...ya think that would make ya feel better, eh? Or Little Yiddish Housewife could put a big guilt trip on you--'vat the hell you zink you vere doink following that stupid Guru, you shmeggeggie, you???'

You feel better now???
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 06:26:33 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Much better!
Message:
Minnesota Housewife makes me laugh everytime. Just wanted to let you know. Thanks Helen.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 22:55:48 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Maggie Shivers
Message:
sssssssSMACK!!! How does that feel brother?
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 06:28:37 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Maggie Shivers
Message:
Thanks Dave. Hey didn't you and Helen come rushing over first time Jim smacked me upside of the head? Yeah think so! Thanks guys!
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 16:23:03 (EST)
From: JW
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: JW
Subject: More on Maggie's Testimony
Message:
Here are excepts from another article on Maggie Shiver's testimony:

United Press International, March 10, 1982:

...Maggie Shivers of Baltimore, now 28 and a student at Yale, recalled the six years she belonged to a group called the Divine Light Mission.

'When I look back on the things I believed in, I have to chock it up to brainwashing,' she said, 'People in cults don't even know they need help.'

The string of witnesses said they had been intimidated, coerced, forced to break the law, and in general were brainwashed by the various cults...

'Physically, I probably could have left. Psychologically, I couldn't have, ' Ms Shivers said...

Opposition came from the most-often mentioned groups, such as the Divine Light Mission, the Church of Scientology, and the Unification Church of the Rev. Sun Myung Moon....

[Maggie, if you see this, congratulations on getting out of the cult, going to Yale, and having the courage to speak out!]
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 14:30:40 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Another Maharaji Lie
Message:
New York Times, August 17, 1973:

The plot involving the reporter who hit Guru Mahararj Ji in the face with a cream pie thickens. The pie was thrown in Detroit by Pat Halley, who works for an underground paper, The Fifth Estate. After the incident, the Guru declined to take legal action against Halley, but Halley was reportedly beaten severely on the head and hospitalized following the incident by two followers of the Guru, including one of his official priests. The Guru stated that the assailants were two of his disciples and that his followers have captured the two and are holding them for police. (emphasis added)

Isn't it funny how Fakiranand got hustled out of the country on a plane to Europe from Chicago under the name 'Mr. Fakir' before the police could get to him? Do you think that is what M meant by 'holding them for police?'
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 14:53:20 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Another Maharaji Lie
Message:
JW: '...what M meant by 'holding them for police?' No, my read on this statement is that he was holding them so that the police wouldn't have to..... he he he :-)
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 15:32:12 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Maharaji Lies
Message:
JW,
I'm really glad you digged these two news reports (The Pie and Hammer Incident, and the Smuggled Jewels) up. They were known to most of us, but it's really valuable to have them in print. I hope Brian, JM, or AE will put them on their website, hopefully with even more details about these stories. I also hope someone will make a good page about M's economy, with EVF, Swiss bank account, and everything. Pwiks do read these pages, and it simply must make at least some of them think. Good job, JW, my congrats.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 16:19:02 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Maharaji Lies
Message:
These are truly gems, Great work! Revisionism doesn't work so well when reports like these are posted.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 14:18:21 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Smuggled Jewels
Message:
New York Times, November 15, 1973:

The Indian Government is probing the finances of the 14-year-old Guru Maharaj Ji, whose followers claim five million adherents in India, 40,000 in the USA and thousands elsewhere. The difficulty arose when the Guru returned to India on November 7 in a jet carrying 350 American disciples and a suitcase reportedly containing $65,000 in cash, watches and jewels, which authorities impounded for violation of smuggling laws. The spiritual movement's public relations director said that the jewels and watches were gifts for the Guru. The Guru denied any connection with the suitcase and said that the controversey is and 'attempt to harm Divine Light Mission.'
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 15:36:15 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The Smuggled Jewels
Message:
Now, just who would have been interested in harming him at that time??? He did not have enemies yet. I remember that incident well, I wish we could get information about what the Indian newspapers wrote about it. Maybe some of M's defectors in India?
Prof. Tandon? Anyone who reads this?
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 16:45:42 (EST)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Today's list of TALL TALES
Message:
Hi there,

Just a quick, cursory lookthrough of today's list provided the following mistakes, inaccuracies, lies and/or seriously libelous statements. Some are silly, some are pretty damn nasty. Having visited your page a few times I see these gaseous items belching their way to the surface quite regularly. Let's take a look at today's headlines.

Starting with yours, going back to '72 (your date is wrong):

Smuggled Jewels! Looks juicy but, alas, no improprieties were found and that suitcase contained all the valuables of the people traveling on 4 or 5 Jumbo Jets. End of story, 26 and 1/2 years ago.

Maharaji never practised! Only from age 6 to age 41. And this is subjective but I've never been around anyone who was more locked into that lovely, timeless central state and radiates it more.

Satganga Klinkenberg from Rhode Island! It's better/worse than that. It's Satganga Baumgartner from Switzerland.

Mom and BBJ won in India! No, the judge did throw out their case as was reported in numerous press stories. They held onto various family properties in India, that's true.

Maharaji killed Bob Mishler! Might as well throw in Vince Foster and Jimmy Hoffa while you're at it.

Rajeshwar is a sad, wounded man! Not as of Summer, 1998 when I last saw him. Was he not supposed to be upset over his wife's death years before?

Maharaji DEMANDS that you follow an entire lifestyle! Sorry, JW. If you volunteered to live in the ashram, which hasn't existed for 18-19 years by the way, there was definitely a prescribed lifestyle as there is in any monastic order. The large majority of premies never lived in the ashram and Maharaji tends to stay far away from 'lifestyle' or personal preference areas in his talks. He does frequently make jokes and observations on the human condition, which is quite a different animal. He's never pretended to live an ashramic life and thus your cries of 'hypocrisy' are meaningless.

There you go. Them there's the facts ma'am on the items I know about personally. It would give one pause, I'd think, in weighing what you read here to know that such a vast spectrum of items could be so far off. Hey, but it's fun to talk trash! I know it's probably useless to even write this as you'll surely dredge up or invent some sordid tale from the underbelly of the petrified Millenium candy bar wrapper, but hey, it's fun to take a stab at one day's worth of headlines on Ye Olde Forum of Truth.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 17:07:01 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: List of Bob's Red Herrings
Message:
Hey Bob:

Starting with yours, going back to '72 (your date is wrong):

Bullshit. 1973 is the date of the Indian INQUIRY, you idiot, not the date of the smuggling. And that's not what I said, it's what the NYT reported.

Smuggled Jewels! Looks juicy but, alas, no improprieties were found and that suitcase contained all the valuables of the people traveling on 4 or 5 Jumbo Jets. End of story, 26 and 1/2 years ago.

This is also bullshit. DLM officials are quoted in the press as saying the watches and jewels were GIFTS to Maharaj Ji, and not about belonging to the passengers. Why would the passengers put all their watches and jewels into ONE suitcase? This is also idiotic.

I'm quite aware that no one was prosecuted and the article doesn't say that. Unfortuantely, there isn't anything illegal about people giving their watches and jewelry to a religious fraud. That's gone on continually, especially during Maharaji's 'Lord of the Universe' period.

Satganga Klinkenberg from Rhode Island! It's better/worse than that. It's Satganga Baumgartner from Switzerland.

Well, I was told by people from Providence that she was from Providence. But either way, I agree. It's just as ridiculous.

Maharaji killed Bob Mishler! Might as well throw in Vince Foster and Jimmy Hoffa while you're at it.

No one has claimed this, and if you bother to read the posts you can read mine that says it's nonsense. Total straw man, Bob!

Maharaji DEMANDS that you follow an entire lifestyle! Sorry, JW. If you volunteered to live in the ashram, which hasn't existed for 18-19 years by the way, there was definitely a prescribed lifestyle as there is in any monastic order.

Yes, the ashram was a prescribed schedule, but I'm talking about satsang, service and meditation, which, if you did what Maharaji said to do, indeed, COMMANDED you do pursuant to five commandments, it was an ENTIRE lifestyle. If you think otherwise it's either revisionism, you weren't in the same cult I was, or you are just lying. I know he's dropped all that and is into 'knowledge lite' these days, but it definitely was going on during the 10 years I was a premie. What was all that about Bob, if he's now ditched a good part of that? Why did the Lord put us through that? Huh?

The large majority of premies never lived in the ashram and Maharaji tends to from 'lifestyle' or personal preference areas in his talks.

So? Thousands did live in his ashrams and gave up everything. He later got rid of them after telling people it was a life-long commitment. Tell me Bob, what was that all about? Some kind of experiment? Tell that to people who lived poor and celibate for years, especially after listening to him say it was not possible for us to move out in those ashram meetings. Tell that to people who wasted their 20s living the 'schedule.' He never has really come clean and explained that, now has he?

He's never pretended to live an ashramic life and thus your
cries of 'hypocrisy' are meaningless.


No, he never pretended to do that, and I was programmed to think he was a lotus and was in the world and not of it and therefore it was okay for him to live like the Sultan of Brunei. That was, of course, bullshit. But I think it was rank hypocracy for him to play into that the way he did. I personally remember some of his more ranting, screaming satsangs when he DEMANDED that human beings SURRENDER their lives to him. That was an ENTIRE lifestyle and don't tell me it wasn't. Also, he dragged Marolyn and his kids up on stage at programs as the model family, and now we know he was having adulterous affairs with other women at the same time. I call that rank hypocracy.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 18:52:36 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Apology, Bob
Message:
Bob, I'm sorry I called you an idiot and I take that back. I'm sure you're not an idiot, but I also think you might well have a big blindspot when it comes to Maharaji. Maybe this is because you love him (I know I did), and so you feel loyalty no matter what he does or doesn't do (I know I did), but maybe you ought to question whether he is worthy of your love.
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 04:51:07 (EST)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: No go bob
Message:
1- I was on the plane. They were our donations.

2- m named my son- He also named several other children the same name.

3- His central vibe or whatever you call it is a parlour trick.A good actor can muster up the same clear force field and emenate the same good vibes.
M is helped by astrological aspects. Sagitarius allows him to beam in on the truth as percieved by the other person/persons and magnify it so that the person feels verified. Trouble is that they BELIEVE it themselves. They do not self examine unless challenged.
Even if you dont believe in astrology, this is textbook stuff An asute astrologer might explain it and you can learn something.

You must have has had a righteous time with that post. It is interesting to me because #1-2- I have first hand experience of and you are wrong. Somehow you have collected info and drawn conclusions to suit your rebuttal

Apologies to the sag's out there.
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 12:02:46 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: cp
Subject: No problem, cp
Message:
Apologies to the sag's out there.

No apologies necessary, cp. I'm a sag. So's my mother. So's my father. My father was born December 10th. I used to think that was an omen of good fortune. It also contributed to my affections for Big M.
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 22:47:50 (EST)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: No problem, cp
Message:
OI VEIGH...........!
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Date: Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 00:10:21 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: cp
Subject: To cp-naming your son
Message:
How did Maharaji name your son? I am very curious about how this took place. You do not have to give your son's name, just how it transpired.
Thanks,
VP
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Date: Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 05:30:58 (EST)
From: cp
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: To cp-naming your son
Message:
Hi vp
It is important to me to keep mum on most of this for the most part.

After he was born, we joined the list of hundreds of other premeis who were asking M to name the babies.

The message was taken as a written request and the name came through the ranks via a letter many months later.
It was a written reply to the request, and I was too spaced out to know how the letter got to me.
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Date: Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 11:13:41 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: cp
Subject: Maharaji names babies
Message:
Thanks for answering, cp!

I know someone Maharaji named (my opinion of the name he chose is not very high) I have been curious about how this happened for many years. I was told that he named very few children, so it was supposed to be a BIG DEAL.

I'll bet there were more babies named than we were led to believe. Do you think he really took the time to name babies, or did some PAM do it? Does anyone else know more about this?

Now there is the ultimate ego trip--naming a new life. It beats having your feet kissed.
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Date: Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 11:46:29 (EST)
From: G'S Mom
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Maharaji names babies
Message:
My memory isn't the greatest on this but this is what I recall...
Around the heavy devotional period...1977 or so...A LOT of babies were getting named by Rawat. And like I said...I recall a lot of boys were getting named Irving or something like that. There were also a lot of Indian names. I think the premies prefered the Indian names. At some point he asked the premies to stop requesting this. But for awhile it was quite common. My ex-husband who was a premie suggested this to me...I was an ex-premie and said ABSOLUTELY not. You did not have to be important to get your kid named by him, just send the request up through the ranks. I somehow got the impression the guru found this annoying. I do not know why. Maybe it was the string of Irvings?

This thread makes me recall this beautiful child in our community. I think she was another Satganda..or at least close. Her mom I won't name for privacy but was european and just had these big sad eyes and so did the baby. They were dirt poor. The baby was just this precious doll but had this really difficult life as her mom had nothing and followed the guru wherever he went as best she could. I hope this little girl grew up okay...she was so sweet and had so many strikes against her.
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Date: Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 12:31:37 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: G'S Mom
Subject: Maharaji names babies
Message:
I had to laugh--Maharaji named boys 'Irving'??? The only names I ever heard were Indian. What a shock!
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Date: Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 13:37:20 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Maharaji names babies
Message:
I recall when I was CC in Miami, having a couple of meetings with parents and kids, and it seemed to me that every third girl was named 'Lila' and every third boy was named 'Darshan.' I kid you not, although it probably wasn't that many.

I remember another time an aspirant came to the ashram when a Mahatma was in town with her little girl named 'Maya.' I remember the Mahatma got freaked out when he head the name and said it meant 'darkness.' He told her to change the kid's name and she did. (I think she changed it to one of the following: 'prashad,' 'lotus feet,' 'charnamarit,' 'agya,' or maybe 'fresh vegetables.')
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Date: Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 23:56:24 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Maharaji names babies
Message:
Now it is my turn to say 'gag and barf!'

Lila is not too bad, but Darshan? I hope I don't offend anyone here, but can you imagine trying to explain the meaning of your name to people if you were named Darshan?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 02:28:55 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: VP: darshan is an Indian...
Message:
name. I met in India a few people called Darshan. Probably as common as Montague is in England.

Regards Jethro
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 13:18:16 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Jethro:darshan is an Indian...
Message:
I was referring to the foot-kissing connotation that the word has. I wouldn't want MY name to have that meaning. Perhaps this word is only repulsive to some of us who have left this set of beliefs.

Within the premie community, I'm sure it's a beautiful name of rich meaning (ack!) and outsiders don't have a clue about it anyway.

No offense,
VP
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 14:04:41 (EST)
From: Darshan DeNiro
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: You got somthin gainst my name
Message:
spose now yous gonna insult my momma.....
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 14:07:25 (EST)
From: Agya Ananda Anderson
Email: None
To: Darshan DeNiro
Subject: will you marry me?
Message:
Lets name our kids Mary and Bill.....
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 14:11:00 (EST)
From: Irving Jones
Email: None
To: Agya Ananda Anderson
Subject: hey, I am fine with being
Message:
Irving. And besides, George Foreman named all his kids George and they are all in the same family...so if the lowd wants to name lots of us Irving thats no biggy.....so what if my name brings up images of pocket pencil holders and thick black glasses...my Birks and tye died shirt dispelled them!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 14:25:44 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Irving, Agya, Darshan
Subject: To those with unusual names
Message:
Alright, alright already.
I'm shutting up.
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 17:11:07 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Get some glasses, Bob
Message:
Bob: Either you can't read or you need glasses.... NO ONE SAID THAT M KILLED ANYONE! (Is the writing big enough for you in this post?) All that was asked was a question; that's all! Get a grip cult-groupie and think with your BRAIN!
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 17:34:33 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: More on the Jewels
Message:
New York Times, July 18, 1973:

The Indian Government continues investigating seizure of undeclared goods worth more than $80,000 from 15-year-old Indian guru, Maharaj Ji, when he arrived in New Delhi in November, 1972. The Airport Customs Bureau had announced after the arrival of the Guru that it had seized foreign currency, jewelry and a cashe of watches. Custom officials served notices on the Guru, his secretary, and a follower, asking them why seized goods should not be confiscated and a case opened against them. The Guru denied any illegality and his mission says his name has been cleared and he is no longer involved in the case.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 18:10:59 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Maybe the jewelry appeared
Message:
from thin air. And maybe he was bringing trinkets back from the west and got caught. And he lied about it and got away with it and discovered that if you can get away with it lying is a valuable tool. And of course all the fellow passengers would vouch that they put all their personal jewelry together in a suitcase. Unexplainably.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 22:44:04 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Maybe the jewelry appeared
Message:
From what I remember of that time, the premies I knew who had gone on that flight to India all said that they were more than glad to cover for Maharaji.

Of course the money and jewelry was not the premies'. They were all ex-hippies most and had relied on 'grace' to scrape together the money for the trip. Everyone knew it belonged to Maharaji. I remember that nobody even thought it strange that Maharaji should try to smuggle this stuff into India. We all thought it was a gas, a wheese that the Lord of the Universe, who owned everything, should allow his devotees to cover for him in his little lila.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 20:03:12 (EST)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The Smuggled Jewels
Message:
JW,

Is there any way to get a list of the items?

Contrary Mary waiting for her Grandmother's watch!
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 20:07:41 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: The Smuggled Jewels
Message:
Is there any way to get a list of the items?

Not that I know of. I have a good friend who got cajoled into turning over some gold bracelets that belonged to her grandmother. They weren't worth a whole lot probably, but they had real sentimental value to her. Nevertheless they are probably long gone. I was never into jewelry, so I didn't turn anything over. I just turned over cash.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 10:48:09 (EST)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Just Curious...Rotten Veges
Message:
Because I've read about the rotten vege satsang in several places, I can't help but wonder when it was and what the point of it was. Anyone care to let me in on it?
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 11:26:49 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Just Curious...Rotten Veges
Message:
Hi Denise,
Maharaji mentioned in several of his satsangs, between 1977 and 1979, that if you receive knowledge and stop practicing, it is like having two tons of vegetables rotting at your door.

The point was that you can't just quit; the consequence is that your life will go bad. Very simple, very threatening, very untrue.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 11:44:05 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Just Curious...Rotten Veges
Message:
Hi Denise,
nice to hear from you again. You can find the Rotten Vegetable Satsang on Jean-Michel's site. Go to Ex-Premie.org's site map, look up EV/DLM Papers Index, which takes you to J-M's site. There, look up Maharaji's Most Famous Quotes and Claims.

The rotten vegetable satsang was printed in the EV publication 'sayings of Guru Maharaj Ji, vol. 3, page 62.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 13:21:28 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Rotten..Rotten Veges
Message:
The rotten vegetable satsang was printed in the EV publication 'sayings of Guru Maharaj Ji, vol. 3, page 62.

M gave this example numerous times, and I also have other versions of it. Basically the SAME THING !

That was one of his most famous examples of the 70s.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 12:09:35 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Denise
Subject: Just Curious...Rotten Veges
Message:
The point was this; to frighten people who had received knowledge. It worked very well. Some people were so frightened that they commited suicide.

It was just one of many fear inducing methods that Maharaji used to keep power over people. It wasn't very nice, it was very nasty and if you'd been around during the seventies you would have seen how people's heads would just fry after a while with all the fear and guilt that had been instilled in them.

Maharaji's cult was not a nice cult. It was not a loving cult but it did have fear as a big part of its structure. The ironic part is that Maharaji never practised knowledge himself.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 14:03:13 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Jean Micheal
Subject: Maharji never practised?
Message:
Is he for real? Or just a robot being operated by some man behind the curtain. All that harping on us and he never! practised or should I say 'enjoyed this experience!' Con! Con! Con! That lazy two-faced bastard, screaming at us to practise his meditation and he never even practised it! The only possibly justification would be if he was the son of GOD and in permanent God Consciouness and totally not a human being. An I'd need that in GOD himself's handwriting. Of all the underhanded bullshit things I've heard about him this is the worst. The suppossed expert never ducks under the blanket himself but SCREAMS at us to. No wonder ashram premies would be found eating Cherrios under there blankets in the meditation room. If the teacher is messed up its certain the students will be.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 14:09:03 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: how do you know
Message:
that he never practiced? did he tell you that himself? did you live in his house (everyday for the last 30 years...)?
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 14:57:22 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: how do you know
Message:
Orlando: If you have to live with the guy for 30 years to determine if he EVER practiced, then I think there's an obvious problem.... He told us to do it EVERY SINGLE DAY WITHOUT QUESTION! It would only take a couple of days to determine if M is practicing what he has preached for the last 30 years.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 15:09:30 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: how do you know
Message:
I don't. Jean Micheal How do I know M never practised?

What I do know is that as a premie I would just accept that he is the boss and I don't question his wisdom or conduct. It is none of my business. As an ex my perspective is changed. Our contract is void. He and I are equals. When I think about our history together I feel like I was taken advantage of at times. Lots of free labor etc. So if in fact he never meditated then it's like I was tricked by the fellow down the street into doing something he wouldn't do himself. I really don't want to go off half-cocked so I'm glad you caught me on this Orlando.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 17:32:05 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: how do you know
Message:
Hi Zac,

I don't have any first hand knowledge that he didn't practice K. I have no first hand knowledge that he ever DID. I know of no one who ever reported that he did in any manner. I never saw him meditate, at programs, or the couple of times I was around him personally.

What I remember vividly was how he would go on and on about how HE had already 'REALIZED this knowledge.' Exactly what that meant was never explained, just non-descriptive ramblings.

As you know, we were told again and again and again, that if WE followed his directions of practicing all day, every day, every week, month, year and did satsang, meditation, service and MOST IMPORTANT of all, SURRENDERED to him (our belongings, finances, free will, choice, time, friends, family, children, our entire LIVE'S), we would REALIZE this knowledge too.

I had to 'fill in the blanks' to figure out what HE was actually doing. It was this mysterious notion that you would reach a 'place' where you didn't have to do formal meditation or even THINK about meditating anywhere or anytime, because you would just BE THERE ALWAYS.

A footnote:

What's absolutely astounding is to NOW know that his revamping of DLM, the techniques and instructions 'teaches' that PWK's (premies) are to only do 'formal' meditation of every technique, SEPARATELY, 15 minutes each (or more of each at one sitting) and NOT to do it throughout the day and in their lives. INCREDIBLE. What happened to REALIZING this knowledge?

So, what the hell did he actually REALIZE? That it's just an ANTIQUE cultural scam and he'd better lay as low as he can here in the west, so that he can keep buying electronic/mechanical toys like his dear father used to give him as a child -- just a tad more expensive toys.

Miloochie

Shame on you Maharaji. I (we) believed in your dream. You have no excuse now. You are not a child anymore.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 18:03:19 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: Maybe we did realize knowledge
Message:
One of my final drips was realizing that after 22 years I seemed no closer to realizing anything. Unless this is his big joke on us and once you realize he's a faker then you graduate from being a sucker.

Somebody please tell me how you can start with what was clearly a rigid unproductive weirdo cult and make it into something that is worthwhile to anyone. How does that work? How does it become beneficial? At what point does weirdness end and legitimacy begin?
How can you be sure half your followers aren't still programmed? How do you know that the virus of the cult hasn't maintained itself in the changing outer forms? Fact is it has. Nothing's changed and you can't make something productive out of the abortion that was. Maharaji said once 81?,82? Maybe I'll just have to get myself a new batch of premies. Why? CAUSE HE RUINED THE FIRST BATCH. HE LEFT THEM IN THE OVEN TO LONG AND THEY FUCKIN' BURNT.

So the first batch of burnt, crispy, fried, damaged premies is here making a stand telling whoever will listen that they are a bunch of burnt, fried, crispy, damaged individuals and the crazy fuckin' cook did it and he is experimenting on another batch of individuals using a little less heat. He still doesn't know what the fuck he is doing, he's playing the whole goddamn thing by ear
and I wouldn't trust him to peel the potatoes. Get out of the kitchen Chop Sing!
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 18:21:07 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Good one Zac (nt)
Message:
Signed, 'burnt'
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 08:53:43 (EST)
From: Best of Drek! :)
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Zac
Subject: Maybe we did realize knowledge
Message:
Dear Zac,
Well the last time I posted to you I was afraid you were going back into the cult. I am so glad for you that your aren't. I know it is hard and I can't do more than a pitiful attempt at empathy since I was only in a couple of years but I give you and other long timers a lot of credit for facing up and making the change and working to get your life, your mind back.
You have my best wishes and I think this post of yours should go on the Best of Drek or whatever it is called. It is genius! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 14:41:35 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: just for the record...
Message:
Miloochie,
i saw Maharaji practice in more than one occasion.
so he does practice...i am an eye witness.
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 15:14:43 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: just for the record...
Message:
Ok, what did you see?
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 17:25:37 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: For how long?
Message:
Orlando: how long did you see him practice? 5 minutes? Using the same yardstick that was applied to me/us: were you with him for 30 solid years, day in and day out? Or did you just see him close his eyes for a few seconds and assume that he was practicing?
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Date: Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 08:30:55 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Orlando
Subject: Practicing self-deception
Message:
i saw Maharaji practice in more than one occasion. so he does practice...i am an eye witness.

We all saw Maharaji, Orlando. We all had eyes. We all had beliefs that we used to filter what we saw. And we assigned meaning to our observations that fit nicely into the context that Maharaji had spelled out for us - and that we had accepted without question and without leaving any room for doubt (according to his commandment).

I don't for a minute believe that YOU can see someone 'meditating' and just know what their inner experience is. It's a complete self-deception on your part to maintain that you can be a 'witness' to whether someone else is meditating or merely sitting with their eyes closed. You can convince yourself (we ALL convinced ourselves), but you can't expect people who stopped buying into that self-deception to now be swayed by words.

For years, Maharaji packaged 'Realizing Knowledge' as an attainable goal that he personally had achieved. He said that he achieved that goal as a young boy. Yet he stopped waving that carrot in front of premies a long time ago. Was it true then? Ever? Was he lying? Why would he stop testifying to what WAS true, and now offer a life-long meditation program for those who just want to touch base with their own inner happiness? Why is Knowledge less than it was?

Who's lying, Orlando, and who's practicing self-deception? Maharaji, you, or both?

He claimed that his 'satguru-ness' emerged after his father keeled over dead, voices told him that he was now the satguru, and it just magically happened after he accepted it as inevitable. He became 'The Master, as in 'The ONLY Master'. His brother, Satpal, makes the same claim.

Is Satpal lying, or just practicing self-deception? Which is Maharaji doing? If I made the same claim, would you see me as being a liar, would you view me as merely being self-deceived, or would you blindly accept MY personal testimony and become a 'witness' to that too?
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Date: Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 12:47:14 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: how do you know
Message:
Zac, you said something about you and Maharaji being equals. I think that it is very important to realize that he is JUST A MAN. But before you decide to be his equal ask yourself this: Do you pretend to be GOD? My guess is no.

If you followed Maharaji than you obviously have a great capacity to love which is valuable. I don't see this in Prem Rawat. Maybe in a lot of ways you are an even better person than he is :)

Have a good day, Zac
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 17:52:34 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Just Curious...Rotten Veges
Message:
The bottom line is that there is either a beautiful experience of peace to be felt inside or it is an illusion.
If the peace is true, then it is a waste to not experience it.

Each of us must decide for ourself what the reality of our life is. It is certainly easy to dismiss the whole matter in the midst of practical things such as going to Yale University to get an education or recovering from a disaster.
On the other hand there is truth to the fact that our own existence is a unique mystery beyond our comprehension. We can feel the truth when we look into the stars or ourselves.
Intellectual explanations are interesting and exciting but no substitute for the real thing.

Cheers and peace,
CD
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 18:38:49 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Just Curious...Rotten Veges
Message:
CD,

Many of us here will testify that, of course, there is a 'beautiful experience of peace to be felt inside'. The question is, it appears that M is making a lot of money teaching some of the meditation techniques that help reach that experience, and is also tying people up in a whole lot of concepts that can be very difficult to get out of.

M is not required. I felt some wonderful things before M, and many since following different methods than those taught by M. I kept a loyalty to him because I held on to a belief that he was the realised being on the earth. I no longer have that belief. It feels good to shake off another concept.

John.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 22:32:53 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Curious peace
Message:
>of course, there is a 'beautiful experience of peace to be felt inside'.

This is a hotly debated issue on this site.

>The question is, it appears that M is making a lot of money teaching some of the meditation techniques that help reach that experience,

I have no problem with M touring and speaking on the subject.
The money complaint has been around since 1972. Big deal.
Some people have had a great time with M and some haven't. Nobody really knows why. Many people are happy that the money is there for him to travel and speak to them in person.
I happen to have bought 4 very beautiful expensive glasses at one of the events. Some people complain that premies sell such items whereas I am happy to enjoy having them. To each their own.

>is also tying people up in a whole lot of concepts that can be very difficult to get out of.

Like what?
That football may not be that important.
That your life is more important than your job.
That people around the world have a fundamental unity deep inside below the layer of concepts.
That realization of peace inside should be the number one priority and the foundation for action.
That peace is not a consequence but a reality.

CD
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 09:43:11 (EST)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Curious peace
Message:
I know exers will have a real time with this post, but as irritated and angry with GMJ as I get reading this forum, sometimes the little reminders from premies melt my heart and I can't deny that feeling...it's so gooood!

This is the center of my struggle, the awful things I read and have to admit to myself and then I experience the peace and love and joy inside and get so darned confused. It doesn't make any sense to me. I begin feeling stupid and a sucker for buying into for so long, but then I remember how much K has added to my life.
I can't deny that. It really has worked for me.

Re: the expensive items sold at programs and mail order-I have ordered things, but generally the whole idea bothers me, it spoils the purity of K to make it a big commercial thing. I remember the first event in CA that had all the stuff, I was in shock and saddened. It made me feel sick to my stomach. I believe it just doesn't belong unless K really is being used for making money. I was also really embarrassed because the friend I brought who hadn't received K was surprised and began having doubts (but later received K anyway and left soon after).
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 14:01:55 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Curious peace
Message:
This is the center of my struggle, the awful things I read and have to admit to myself and then I experience the peace and love and joy inside and get so darned confused. It doesn't make any sense to me. I begin feeling stupid and a sucker for buying into for so long, but then I remember how much K has added to my life. I can't deny that. It really has worked for me.

What, exactly, has 'knowledge' done for you Denise? What has it 'added' to your life, really, both positive and negative, and don't just give the meaningless jargon Maharaji spews. Now, obviously, right now it's causing you to have to live with cognitive dissonance, right? You have to compromise your values, because of what you now know about Maharaji, to keep up the faith, right? So that's one negative. But what REALLY are the positives?

For me, I thought there were LOTS of positives to being a premie and practicing knowledge. In fact, I was terrified to give it up and so I rationalized everything, including M's bizarre and uncarring behavior. But, when I did leave it, I found that life actually got better, much better. And I didn't have to compromise my values anymore. That was especially great. I found that the good stuff I experienced with knowledge didn't really have anything to do with knowledge. It was all my attribution of good things to knowledge and Maharaji. It was a belief system, pure and simple. And if it's just meditation that you like, then continue to do the meditation. I don't see that as a problem.
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 15:24:27 (EST)
From: Kara
Email: None
To: Denise etc.
Subject: Curious peace/lemons&milk
Message:
Yessir. JW's life has gotten soooo much better! That's why now, 15 years after he stopped practicing knowledge, he spends so much of his time here! Just check the stories up and down the list. Why, so many of them are written by, guess who? His life has expanded and turned into a real barrel of laughs! That's why, 15 years later, he's finally gotten that damn guru out of his head. So Denise, why not forget about your own beautiful experience and just bathe in JW's for a while? You know what they say about a little lemon spoiling the milk. it doesn't take much at all. Then your life will be soooo much better as well!
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 16:44:11 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Kara
Subject: Passive Aggression
Message:
Well hello 'kara' what a sweet thing you are.

Perhaps you haven't considered how much fun this is, Kara. Perhaps you should give it a try. I mean it's soooooo beautiful you know, this life, I mean, it's such a gift to be able to let people know about Maharaji and perhaps help prevent them from making the same mistakes I did. By the way, 'Kara' I was an ex-premie for 14 years before this website existed. And yes, my life got SO MUCH BETTER after I stopped devoting my life to a charlatan, that is true.

Hey Kara, why not give it a try? Give up passive agression and try sharing a little of you life with us, rather than attacking others I mean. Unlike Maharaji's heavily censored, paranoid websites, you can actually discuss things with people here. And they are very nice people. You'd like them I think. I mean we actually TRUST people to say what they think and discuss things like life, happiness and the rest, quite openly. I know that might be new to you, but give it a try, you might like it.
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 18:56:29 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Passive Aggression
Message:
Right on again, JW.
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 14:50:35 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Money money money
Message:
Dear Denise
why does it bother you that items are being sold? You have claimed yourself that you do not make any donation; obviously, noone is forced to pay anything, if they don't want to.
Don't you see this is not connected in anyway to what you feel?
How do you think that these halls you go to to hear maharaji speak get paid for, anyways?
Of course, there is a need for money...Aand there is nothing wrong with this...
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 16:03:08 (EST)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Money money money
Message:
Orlando,

I have given donations, just none in the last 6 months and a lot less in 1998 than in previous years. I began giving as soon as I got my first job out of college and gave what little extra I had each month, as I made little. I increased that as my income increased until last year when I stopped practicing for 6 months.
I just never gave 10% of my income or large amounts like others have (thousands). I always felt like it was important I give so M could do his work and spread K.
Also, my local community only had a few supporters so it took a good amount from each person to keep it going, so I gave there also. I did figure M needed to sell things to make expenses, but it still bothered me. It was too commercial - the kinds of stuff I mean. Videos and music or even shirts don't bother me, but there were chocolates, ties, etc. Now I wonder whether it was all just for moneymaking. I guess I'll never know.
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 16:43:22 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Money money money
Message:
Hi Denise
Chocolates? i would say it is for money making...my point was: what is wrong with that?
what is important is that you never felt 'obligated' or forced to give a contribution (i hope you did not).
It has been said many many times, even at events that people should contribute only if they want to.
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 17:47:37 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: You're right, Orlando
Message:
Orlando: You know.... you're right. No one was forced to give. It was all voluntary...... SOOOOOO, that means I can hold premies responsible for his ludicrous lifestyle and the fact that his airplane dumps tons of pollutants into MY AIR whenever he decides to fly it. THANKS ORLANDO for enabling/permitting this obvious bozo to waste so many valuable resources (e.g. making toilets/faucets out of a rare material - GOLD!). If you voluntarily give to his excesses, then you are TOTALLY responsible for the outcome (as 'enablers').

Yup, you are all right..... You really DON'T care that he is so wasteful. It is obvious by your unquestioning support that you fully support his megalomaniacal behavior.

Yeah, we did it, too..... BUT WE LEARNED from our experience. You guys are still supporting/encouraging his lardness' gross behavior.
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Date: Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 17:32:46 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: waste
Message:
>You really DON'T care that he is so wasteful.

OK I admit it.
I drive a car with a V8, have a 32' TV and 5 electric guitars.
But I live in a small apartment, not a huge house.
How about you?

I heard the other day that Eric Clapton was going to auction off 100 of the guitars in his personal collection. I wonder how many he will have left?

CD
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Date: Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 18:27:55 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: waste
Message:
CD: Yup, I burn 'some' fossil fuel, but I really do try to do it in as responsible a manner as possible (e.g. keep my vehicles as fuel efficient and smog free as possible). My vehicles do not put TONS of pollutants into the air every year, much less every time I take them out. A quad-engine, commmercial aircraft does... each and every time it's flown. If he really cared about the environment, he would cross the pond on a commercial flight where the 'fuel burned per person flown' is a reasonable ratio.

Your V8 doesn't even 'move' the pollution meter, by comparison. Additionally, it is much more efficient in terms of fuel burn than flying a four engine commercial grade jet with only 4 or 5 passengers aboard. When a plane is full of passengers, it's fairly efficient.

My digs are pretty spartan, by most standards. I sure as heck don't live in a mansion on a hill in malibu or anything like it. I wonder how much fuel is required to heat that house. But that's another story and it's all beside the point. M's ludicrous lifestyle is enabled and enhanced by premies that freely give in to his every materialistic desire. Once again, I'm not talking about giving him a humble home or a vehicle or two; I'm talking about EVERYTHING TO EXCESS! Absolutely everything he has or does is to excess.... EVERYTHING! And premies are the people that enable/permit this to happen.

Just ONCE, I would like to see every premie say 'no' the next time M wants a rolls or a rolex or a new airplane or a yacht. I wonder what his response would be...... interesting thought, no?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 00:12:07 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: you know who you are
Subject: waste
Message:
Well, I live in a big house. So what? What is the problem with that? It's beautiful and I enjoy it. I have some stuff. I don't worship that stuff and if it all went away tomorrow I wouldn't care. But that isn't the point.

The point is that I never asked anyone to give up what THEY have to live a life of poverty in an ashram while I was driving the very best automobiles and living in a mansion. You know who did.
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 17:03:25 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Money money money
Message:
How do you think that these halls you go to to hear maharaji speak get paid for, anyways?

And don't forget the gold toilet fixtures, Orlando. How do you think THEY get paid for? These things are expensive.
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 17:32:32 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Money money money
Message:
and his oh soooooo necessary smog-belching airplane and his friggin' mansions and his rolls royces (or is it royci) and his fleet of mercedes (one for each day of the week?) and his gold watches and his private schools for HIS kids and his aimless, useless wandering all over the planet and living in the BEST hotels, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc......on and on and on and on, ad nauseum...
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 20:39:31 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Money money money
Message:
Yes, it all goes to such a worthy cause, doesn't it? I'm so happy I was able to contribute while I did. Helping Maharaji get his work done was such a joy. My favorite is still the gold faucets. It pleases me to know I helped (in my small way of course) to have them installed. What are you most contented about in how your contributions were put to use, Mike? You strike me as a gadget kind of guy. Maybe its all the electronic toys Maharaji was able to buy thanks to you. No? Whatever. Maybe we should have a survey where exes share what their greatest joy is in what M was able to buy as a result of their humble offerings. That would be interesting.
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Date: Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 10:14:04 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: My joy!
Message:
Jerry: My absolute favorite was the fleet of mercedes-benz's that we so humbly bestowed upon him during a time when I couldn't even afford a bus ticket to orlando (much less an actual volkswagon beetle or something of that ilk).

Now, I really get-off on the fact that he has his very own friggin commercial aircraft that is meant to carry hundreds of people around, but only carries three or four at a time. Yes, he really cares for 'our breath' doesn't he? Yes, while trying to get us to 'listen' to our breath, he is pumping TONS of pollutants into it, 'just for us.' Kind of like a gaseous version of charnamrit, right? :-)
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Date: Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 17:39:19 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: My joy!
Message:
>Now, I really get-off on the fact that he has his very own friggin commercial aircraft that is meant to carry hundreds of people around, but only carries three or four at a time.

The current plane is a heck of a plane but doesn't have the capacity to carry 100s though it can apparently cruise at 40K feet.
Agasi has a plane to get to tennis matches. Big deal!
How much does one of those fighter aircraft that keeps crashing cost? Oh yeah, the pilot just jumps out and thats it. Good for the aircraft business.

CD
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Date: Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 19:49:23 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: red herring, CD
Message:
CD: To try to compare fighter aircraft, that are meant to defy the laws of physics, to a commercial aircraft that would fall apart if stressed to 3g's is laughable. It's a red herring, CD. Fighter pilots have to make airplanes do things that are right on the very edge..... sometimes they surpass that edge and the 'law' comes and smacks them upside the head. Fortunately, M isn't permitted to possess the weapons systems that are aboard fighter aircraft (which is one of the reasons for the high cost of those aircraft).

You still haven't addressed anything except the fact that you don't care what he does to the environment with your 'who cares' comment about aggassi. I don't approve of that one either, BTW.

You are right, the premies redesigned the spaces within his airplane so that it can no longer carry as many passengers as it was originally designed to do..... so what's your point? That it's less wasteful because it can no longer carry as many passengers????? huh?
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 22:17:51 (EST)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Money money money
Message:
I had one of those drip drip drip experiences when I saw Rennie Davis in the Lord of the Universe video describing the swan fossets in M's bathroom..puke.......

..Rennie are you embarassed - where are you now?

You did have an extaordinarily laid-back child in your arms.
How are you both doing?
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 17:47:54 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Anyways
Message:
I always disliked use of the word 'anyways'. Can you Americans tell me if it a commonly used American English word, or a Guru word? It is certainly not a English word in common usage.

John.
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 18:09:40 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Anyways
Message:
I always disliked use of the word 'anyways'. Can you Americans tell me if it a commonly used American English word, or a Guru word? It is certainly not a English word in common usage.

It's a nonstandard word that means the same thing as 'anyway.' It's not a 'guru word.' It's considered bad English, like using 'ain't' to mean 'I am not.'
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Date: Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 17:13:30 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Curious peace
Message:
>Re: the expensive items sold at programs and mail order-I have ordered things, but generally the whole idea bothers me,

My girlfriend has not done the K thing and has her reservations about M. But she loves the premie music CDs for some reason. There are some singers though that she describes as lounge lizards - g.
Her favorite is the purple music CD by the Japanese lady.
And she plays Drifting a lot and the new music CDs. I often hear it in the background when I give her a call on the phone.
To be honest I am a bit suprised at how often she plays the premie music CDs since she is also a big fan of the music of George Harrison, Pink Floyd, Dire Straits, Gypsy Kings and Traveling Wilburys.
Some people ridicule the music and some love it. Who knows!
So, I am glad that the music is available for purchase.

I have heard M speak about many topics over the years that were truely inspirational and positive. Topics that for some reason don't come up in most ordinary conversations.

CD
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 20:43:22 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Just Curious...Rotten Veges
Message:
Intellectual explanations are interesting and exciting but no substitute for the real thing.

Your post IS an intellectual explanation but it's wrong. The bottom line is accuracy, honesty and integrity.

accuracy - maharaji doesn't have the patent for peace. Leaving him has no consequence.

honesty - maharaji isn't God and knowledge isn't salvation

integrity - maharaji should admit it
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 22:43:54 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Just enough
Message:
>Your post IS an intellectual explanation but it's wrong. The bottom line is accuracy, honesty and integrity.

You can be your own judge of yourself.

Wrong? According to whom may I ask?
We disagree. That does not make you right.

CD
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 01:07:15 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Just enough
Message:
Wrong? According to whom may I ask? We disagree. That does not make you right.

No, we don't just disagree. It's either true or false that leaving knowledge will be like having two tons of rotten vegetables at your door, or that you'll shatter into a million pieces. Unless you can provide some evidence, these are outrageous claims. These aren't consequences of leaving maharaji - they're the threats of a cult leader.
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 06:37:24 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: He said worse to people
Message:
At a program in Leicester, England, one guy shouted out to Maharaji, 'I want to give this knowledge back to you, Maharaji!'

And Maharaji retorted, 'Then you'll need four strong men!' i.e. to carry the coffin. By the mid seventies I regretted bitterly having received knowledge. I believed everything M had said about what would happen if I left and I hated the fact that I'd been trapped into this trip. I wished to God I'd never received Maharaji's damn knowledge and I, like many others, continued to tear my life apart and continued on a vicious downhill spiral of inner conflict and turmoil.

There was no peace in this knowledge. It was one bastard of a heavy trip.
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 11:55:18 (EST)
From: ex-mug
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Sharks
Message:
I've just remembered his threats about leaving 'the ship of knowledge' or something like that, where he spoke of the sharks
awaiting those who fell off the boat -
That the best place to be was the entertainment room in the centre of that ship -WHAT UTTER BULLSHIT specifically designed to scare
the living daylights out of us, a bit like the rotten vegetables.... prime cult tactics spoken by the 'leader' and
'figurehead' (dictator and mind despot) named Maharaji ji......
he said these things, not his followers - I heard him.
Does God lie? If he still thinks he is God but publicly states that he is not, then he is lying through his teeth.
If he does not think he is God, then why did call himself greater than God in the past? Either way he is lying.
Not surprisingly, his lies actually reflect themselves throughout
the whole premie scene. A lot of premies seem confused.
Whilst in the ashram I surpressed a lot of nagging doubts and had to act the simple idiot in order to be a part of that scene;
had to put any critical thinking and common sense out of my life.
This was a fact for me. Maybe not for others.
In retrospect, I did this in order to serve who I thought was God incarnate ( and it was Maharaj ji who perpetuated this lie, even
if he now says that he didn't - another porky) and now I feel incredibly happy to be an ex-mug, because at that time I was a
mug for allowing such a conman to influence my life to such an extent.
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 13:37:24 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: ex-mug
Subject: Ex - keep on hitting .......
Message:
those keys :>)
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 14:18:25 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: ex-mug
Subject: Don't jump off the boat!
Message:
Hey Ex: I think this goes hand-in-hand with his 'don't jump off the boat' satsang. He was looking straight inot the camera and was dead-pan serious when he said it!
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 16:10:48 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Don't jump off the boat!
Message:
Reason and critical thinking are the torpedos which sink the Ship of Knowledge.
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 19:07:20 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Don't jump off the boat!
Message:
You said it, Mickey!! ANd those two things can become dear friends too, not at all scary sharks or rotten vegetables!!
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Date: Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 23:49:56 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Don't jump off the boat!
Message:
I hope that happens Helen.
I worry when I see how tough it is for people to leave
the programming.
cd IS a programmer. He has read plenty.
Since there is no god, he thinks it is all illusion
so what the heck, he chooses to continue in the illusion
that he is used to. The hell with the consequences to others.
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Date: Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 05:48:10 (EST)
From: ex-mug
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Don't jump off the boat!
Message:
and this shark has his arm around a person telling them not to jump off the boat because there are sharks in the water - LOL
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 19:03:25 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Sir Dave/Denise
Subject: He said worse to people
Message:
What a heartless incredibly egotistical thing for GM to say. And very sad reading your regretful feelings of being stuck in the trap. It reminds me of when Gail said Joan Apter said 'her mind' wished GM's plane would crash so that she could be free of the whole thing, so that it would end. And Maharaji seems to have a sense of glee that people feel trapped. This is love, Denise??
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 22:37:37 (EST)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: He said worse to people
Message:
Helen,

'Gail said Joan Apter said 'her mind wished GM's plane would crash so she could be free of the whole thing, so that it would end'?

I saw Joan at the last Long Beach event a couple of years ago. Is she still involved?
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Date: Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 11:12:08 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: He said worse to people
Message:
I was stunned when I read that quote. That woman sounds like she really needed help. I think there was a discussion about her in which Rawat had been so merciful to her that she is allowed to be the laundress at his home.

But objectively, I would say if a premie got up in satsang and said their 'mind' was wishing the guru's plane would crash...I would be watching that person a little closer in I were the darshan line security.

That whole statement really said something about how the brainwashing worked. She could get up and say to a room of premies she fantasized the guru's death. And because her mind was not her....she did not realize SHE was wishing him dead...it was like the devil got in her head and said it.
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Date: Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 18:09:17 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: He said worse to people
Message:
I have no idea, Liz. Even when I was involved 14, 15, 16 years ago I didn't know a Joan Aptor from any other initiator. But Gail might know
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 00:31:33 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Self knowledge for $50
Message:
Or about £30. That's the price a premie is charging and it's all thanks to Maharaji. She says so on her site.

If you want to see the kind of crap that is being peddled thanks to Maharaji just Click here to get fleeced and no grumbling now, because we all know don't we, that principles are a no no in Maharaji's world.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 07:12:10 (EST)
From: Luv
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Self knowledge for $50
Message:
Very interesting, especially since maharaji does not believe in astrology, and he frequently, at his program events, ridicules and makes jokes about people who use astrology. How can you give thanks to maharaji for something he does not believe in and openly denounces? Confusing....
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 08:33:34 (EST)
From: ex-mug
Email: None
To: Luv
Subject: Self knowledge for $50
Message:
Interesting that Jonathan Cainer, the famous astrologer,
is one of the guys behind the EnjoyingLife web site -
but I doubt that he would use that to help sell his charts :)
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 12:40:57 (EST)
From: SorryAnon
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Jonathan Cainer
Message:
M may not believe in Astrology but he certainly profits from it. Jonathan Cainer sends him (M not EV!!) large monthly cheques from his income from multiple astrology columns in the UK and Australia. Interesting to note for UK exes that purchase of the Daily Mail helps M's lavish lifestyle.

Also, JC explained once in his column that he'd been away in the far east researching the astrological hidden meaning of comet Hale Bopp with some wise men, when he had in fact been to see M at an Event in India.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 14:06:31 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: SorryAnon
Subject: what is your point?
Message:
Are you his confident? how do you know how much money he gives?
What is the point of bad mouthing him? has he done anything bad to you?
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 16:16:55 (EST)
From: SorryAnon
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Re: what is your point?
Message:
As a private individual, what Mad Jon Cainer chooses to do is entirely his business. However, when he chooses to publicly expouse his support for M (via the enjoyinglife.org site), he has made himself a legitimate target for this site. Remember, the ELK site practices blatant censorship and revisionism on submissions from premies. Also, if we can criticise M's lavish lifestyle, then I think we can also criticise those that significantly contribute to that lifestyle.

I must confess to a little cowardice regarding revealing the source of my information about his donations, except to say that the source is very sound indeed.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 14:54:30 (EST)
From: biff
Email: None
To: Luv
Subject: Self knowledge for $50
Message:
Thanks sir david for that link. Interesting.

Now I may get accused of being a premie apologist (wouldn't be the first time :-))but first off: astro girl doesn't thank M for astrology. She seems to be thanking him for the 'gift' of K. I don't see where she thanks him or connects him to astrology.

See, given that a lot of people here are very freaked by anything M or M related, there's a tendency to jump on things that premies say or do and somehow try and link it back to M/ K. I've seen this a lot.

What would make more sense to me would be to discuss personal experiences with M /K/ EV world, as opposed to finding fault with other people, premies or not.

I know that when I'm upset about something I have a tendency to see things through that filter and start connecting everything to it. Sometimes it's a real stretch though.

Although I may find the idea of that astrology program kinda goofy, I can't really see what its got to do with M. If anything, given that M laughs at all that astrology stuff it just goes to show that premies are free to do whatever they want.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 17:20:37 (EST)
From: Luv
Email: None
To: biff
Subject: Half Point, Well Taken
Message:
Point well taken, but I disagree that Premies are free to do whatever they want. You said it would make more sense to discuss our personal experiences on this site. Well here is one of my personal experiences. I was doing service at and event last year when a passer-by asked me about the event. I gladly told this individual about the event, in very positive terms, and was later chewed out by my service coordinator and maharaji's public relations coordinator for talking to and 'outsider' about maharaji. I was told anyone who wants to know about M or his events should be sent to public relations. I was having a beautiful experience sharing with this person who approached me until I was jumped on by these organizational premies, which then my experience turned to shit. Now this is only one mild example, I've got allot more experiences I can share with you that would invalidate the statement 'Premies are free to do whatever they want'. Premies may be free to do whatever they want on the internet, but they are not free to do whatever they want with EV or M. There is strict censorship in the organization. I know, I used to have a full-time service with DLM and have frequently done service with EV, and often I've found allot of manipulation going on.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 19:33:02 (EST)
From: biff
Email: None
To: Luv
Subject: Half Point, Well Taken
Message:
Thanks Luv.

That must have been a real bummer. It sucks when you're in a great space and then some nitwit comes along and ruins it. I too found a lot of the 'organizers' had a weird authoritarian vibe. Whenever I encountered it I just thought that it was kind of sad. Like people thinking that they're real important? Talk about 'being in your mind'. :-)
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 06:17:06 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: biff
Subject: Half Point, Well Taken
Message:
Biff

Agree that there's a tendency to see links where there ain't none or at least to exaggerate them. Applies to premies too. Guess one benefit of the premie-exe 'discussions' on this site is that they help sort out the reality from the exaggeration.

Having said that, I do think there's a link between the 'weird authoritarian vibe' you mention within the organisation, and the fact that MJ is the BOSS whose authority is not to be questionned. Very difficult to run a free-thinking, open organisation under the auspices of an authoritarian head honcho. (You can see it to some extent in other organisations - I can certainly think of places I've worked where the style of top management percolates down the heirarchy.)

I also suspect that, in Luv's example, the concept that premies shouldn't be talking to 'outsiders' may well have originated with MJ. I've heard this idea within Elan Vital in the 90s, along with the intimation that it's from the top. I was never sufficiently near the top, however, to know for sure if MJ was the source of this direction (thought I'd add that in the service of not over-exaggerating).

Diz
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 11:49:02 (EST)
From: biff
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: Half Point, Well Taken
Message:
That's the thing, for me, is that I was also never anywhere near the top so I have no clue if EV attitudes come straight from the top or if EV is its own animal.

EV vibe is often strange, but so are many organizations. It's the nature of bureaucracy I guess. But then that brings up another question of why do 'spiritual' things need to be organized?

Hey I've got a lot more questions then I do answers.
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 13:26:38 (EST)
From: Luv
Email: None
To: forum
Subject: A Major Problem...
Message:
in EV, as well as DLM, was that you do'nt know when something actually was being handed down from Maharaji. Allot of the organizational premies had, and still have, their own agenda, and dictate that agenda with words like 'Maharaji wants it this way'. There are so many layers in EV as there was in DLM; local coordinators, regional coordinators, particular service coordinators. And these people argue among themselves as to what Maharaji wants. I have wittnessed this. Back in the days of DLM there were DUO coordinators. Then you have the instructors, previously known as initiators, and before that they were known as mahatmas. And they gave/give policy instructions to the flock as well. Maharaji does not give clear direction. He complains when things go wrong in the organization, but he has setup a mega international corporation in EV, as he did with DLM, and it is less than efficient. The followers are the ones who suffer from this inefficiency. They are the ones who give their time, energy and money to this misinformation and confusion. This is exactly what happened to DLM, until Maharaji closed the thing down, and he did so I might add without warnung to his followers. Why does he need such a large organization? He could'nt handle DLM. That's why he dissolved it. Now he's got another DLM called Elan Vital.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 21:01:02 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Luv, Biff
Subject: Half Point, Well Taken
Message:
I'd have to agree with Biff also, to an extent. I can't quite see the direct connection. This person has put it up there for the public, so evaluating every aspect of it, I think is appropriate.

And Luv makes an excellent point too. It will be interesting to see how long this 'grateful' premie (pwk, whatever) has her link up there with her astrology activities.

It didn't take very long for M to change his patent claims on the org site. I'll bet this premie has already heard from M's spiritual censors (henchmen).

Miloochie
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 11:51:59 (EST)
From: biff
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: Half Point, Well Taken
Message:
Maybe I'm naive but I'd be surprised if astro girl was contacted. Ya never know though do ya? If that site is actually altered then that would definitely be weird/ creepy.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 20:15:41 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: biff
Subject: Self knowledge for $50
Message:
I don't see where she thanks him or connects him to astrology.

No, she is thanking him for her LIFE, or for enjoying her life. That includes just about everything, including astrology, since that's part of her life. Plus, despite not saying it directly, if you put a 'thank you' on an astrology site, the implication is pretty obvious. She doesn't say M is into astrology, but she puts him on the same 'thank you' section where she credits people who helped her with the astology site. Again, pretty obvious. If M derides astrology, that's kind of a weird connection. Although Mark told us M actually consulted an astrologer when he was having marriage problems, so maybe he is more into astrology that we think.

See, given that a lot of people here are very freaked by anything M or M related, there's a tendency to jump on things that premies say or do and somehow try and link it back to M/ K. I've seen this a lot.

Really, this is true of ANY type of discussion, in my experience. And this 'jumping' isn't true of everyone either. There are those who 'jump' and those who are more cautious, on both sides of this issue. The good thing is that we actually HAVE the discussion at all, and actually try to get out the information and allow people to correct anything that is innaccurate. Premies don't even have that except for this forum, because, I guess, Maharaji is paranoid of what they might say. Now, this might be 'jumping' to conclusions, but M is partly responsible for that because he never comes out and says what the hell it is he's doing and why. He doesn't encourage or really tolerate open discussion. So, we are forced to speculate.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 23:32:51 (EST)
From: Ganga
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Self knowledge for $50
Message:
JW has shed some light on a consciousness thread that is well-taken. It will be interesting to see how that site develops. Likewise, I am reminded of mega-events where people participating in a sense, become individual events, call them 'virtual web pages'. However one sees it, those events technically are sponsored by an organization that invites a guest speaker. That organization has taken on a responsibility. Whether or not the organization has the ability to respond to the task at hand may be questionable, but the trust one gives by participation should be carefully looked at, in oneself, to clearly understand if what one offers can be received. This is just self-protection which experience tells me, avoids alot of burn-out and need for 'therapy'. It also helps to preserve the self-integrity, in one's conscious thinking mind, of any deeper inner experience a person would tend to attach to action. (Though my experience tells me a 'deep inner experience' is not dependent on action.)
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 01:18:21 (EST)
From: Luv
Email: None
To: Ganga
Subject: Self knowledge for $50
Message:
I recently went to a spiritual festival in Southern California that was put on by an organization which will remain nameless. The big difference I noticed was the lite presence of security. What does EV/M have to protect themselves against? It used to be called 'service' now its called 'participation', it used to be called 'devotion', now its called 'graditude'. Why the word games? Maharaji's events are so tightly orchrastrated, with security, ushers, etc. The spiritual festival I went to in California was much more open, and much more fulfilling for that matter, than M's events, and there were thousands of people there. I've done security at M's events, which used to be called programs, and before that festivals. The security people at M's events are told if someone stands up and says something to M at the event, security and ushers in that particular section are to move towards that individual. Surround him/her, and if M does'nt answer the person, and the person continues to address maharaji, escort them from the hall. This is standard protocol for security and ushers, etc. at M's events. In every city in the U.S. where M has a program/event, it makes it diffitcult to talk about this thing with all the flip floping in language, EV hires the local police to be present in the hall. M has more security then the President of the United States, what's he afraid of, a pie in the face? Maharaji's organizations (DLM and EV) are sooooo paranoid. I go to other spiritual events that don't have half the security that M has. If EV/M did'nt have anything to hide they would'nt need censorship and all that protection. What are they trying to protect? Their corporate image? M initially presented himself as and open spacious spiritual experience not a censored trip, this is what he has evolved into. In Boulder, Colorado 1971 he did not have all the security and censorship he has today, and there were more followers in the early 1970's then there are today. Back then he was begging people to receive his so-called knowledge, and there were no aspirant programs in the early 70's. Is he afarid he might get sued? He's a very paranoid master, which is a contradiction in terms.
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 12:04:34 (EST)
From: biff
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Self knowledge for $50
Message:
Hi JW.
I still don't see the thank you as necessarily related to the nature of the site. I see it the same way as if someone had a sportscar site or a bird appreciation site or a ..... whatever site, and at the top they thank 'the lord' or whatever. However I do see your point and that if someone believes, or actually sees another being / entity as being responsible for all that is then it would follow that whatever their interests are they would see as being another emanation of that source.

As for the other comment I agree that this happens in any type of discussion and I probably didn't communicate it well but that's what I meant when I said that I do it too. I wasn't implying that it ONLY happens here but that we all (or many of us) do this from time to time. I do and it's something that I try to be aware of in myself but it ain't easy.

I fully agree that it's great that an open discussion like this is taking place. Ultimately it can't be anything but healthy for all 'sides'.
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 05:43:49 (EST)
From: name witheld
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Self knowledge for $50
Message:
click here

That guy's a premie
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 12:03:15 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: Sir David and Bill
Subject: apology
Message:
Dear Sir David and Bill,

I just wanted to let you know I regret how hard I was on you about my post. Part of it was confusion about who was who and what was where, part of it wishing I had been asked and part of it was just stress.

This morning I read the 'truth about Maharaj Ji' website and it is a very good site.

anyway, I hope you can understand that I realize now I was overly harsh and forgive me for that.

g's mom
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 12:05:00 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: above to SirDavid and Bill(nt)
Message:
sorry no text
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 12:27:41 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: G's mom
Subject: apology
Message:
No need to worry. I should have asked first but the trouble is I'm pushed for time and am putting up posts there only when I get the chance and I have to be quick otherwise I lose track of what I'm doing.

I'm confused about Bill too. You see someone emailed me called Jeff and he made reference to a Bill but it wasn't Bill Burke, I don't think. Bill is distinctive in his writing style. I appear here under a variety of disguises although my only serious one is Sir David/Dave. My other names are John Hammond-Smyth, Lady Jane, Cheeseman and David of Cheddar. As you know, Bill has used a dictionary full of names.

I'm glad you like the site. I think it's put a major brake on Maharaji's propaganda machine in the West. Now he simply cannot delude people like he used to. There's too much information about him available.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 01:47:04 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: apology
Message:
Wow, so you are JHSmith!
Good posts I must say.

G-MOM, You seemed only sensible and right on the money
in your comments and sure it IS a sensitive issue.
We just want to back you up and take a stand against
the criminal.
You gave good direction I thought.
Best to you G's-MOM.
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 20:31:37 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: G's mom
Subject: By the way
Message:
If in the future you decide your post would be suitable to put on the Truth site, just let me know and if necessary, I will edit out anything you don't want printed.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 15:52:26 (EST)
From: Luv
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: On Behalf of Others
Message:
Thank you for your story, as tragic as it was I think we needed to hear it. I understand your apology is to Sir David and Bill, but I've enjoyed your posts as well, and I understand your reasoning. Your posts have been very insightful and I encourage you to continue.
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 01:38:45 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: The Bill Burke Contest
Message:
Bill posted this below:

Although it's great to be like Sir David, I never
post as someother name.
I know that is a popular thing to do.
I use bb, of bill or sometimes b...*>*


Katie and I both laughed when we read this. Bill was the person who figured out that he could insert AN ENTIRE POST in the subject field on Forum II. The entire post became the link in the index! When writing the Forum III software, I had to go to great lengths to make it Burke-proof.

Just for fun (and the challenge), we decided to see just how many names Bill HAS used, and to invite you all to vote for your personal favorite.

To make things simpler (and to keep the server from crashing) only the names used in Forum III are listed.

Here's the list:

*>* b
*>*..b
*>*...b
*>*....b
*>*.....b
*>*.......b
*>*..bb
*>*...bb
*>*...bill
*>*....bill
*>*.....Bill
*>*..bill burke
*>* event eyes
*>*.......Frank
*>*....For
*>*...hey hey
*>*...Hi
*>*...hi kieth
*>*...Hi Robyn!
*>*....Hmmm, this time
*>*......Moonies validate
*>* my new tag
*>*.. once again,
*>*...strike a pose
*>* to Mark . and also
*>* What about the long
-------((((((((.....broom
007
9and 3 car garages
Abdul
again with the
Alice the Goon
Anonomousie
archives
attitude
avoiding life.org
b.*>*
b..*>*
b!
bag
bb
bb-And the Psychiatrists
bb gun
bb-remember the surgeon
bee bee
beeb
Betty
beyond the grave
bill
bill..*>*
bill...*>*...
bill burke
billdha
billdhs
billin hood
Bill Ji
bill-Shri Hens
bill --The bus came by
blutarsky
bongo beringer
box
bruce is obviously not a
Brutis
burke
burkeoid
bvd
casey
cavalry
channeling jimmie
congrats
DAWN
dropping the bb's
dvd
E
ear
earthling
eldest liar
el presidente
erma bombeck
ev...*>*
fanny
first day..*>*
fly
focus your mind -on a
For KK
frank
friends of deep
fuddha
Goalie
good news for some.
Heaven.org
H. Conn,
HERE IS ONE FROM
here is the jan 99
hindia
huh?
If there were rules
irs
it takes courage to feel
Jiva
Jonathan Cainer the liar
karate kid
ki jai
kleenex
lord of universe
lp..*>*
maha
Marion the Jailer
MBS Promise Keepers?
me
meka leka Hi
Mel is helping?
memory lane
metal badger
mg
midnight
mili?
milk
Mothra
new vine
Nili
no heart
oh thank you petrou,
One wild website!
ooops, I accidentally
pam too
parady
park
Pasha
pass the buck
pokeing through the house
pokey
private eye
PT's Mom
public houseing
random letters
rip van winkle
rivo alto
satguroovy
satguru dev MILI ki jai!
scott, you speak with
seeker
sherlock
smoochie
spent
spread THIS knowledge
srb
S R B
srb...*>*
srb=bill burke
sr-bb
srb----fatrat
srbill
sr blutarsky
srb--The Elephant Chair.
stamp act
stark raving
stark raving burke
stray cat
Sue
Take a hike Ladies,
thanks for the prints
thats not how the IRS
the hallucinations of
The old men
The Other One
the sound ot the
The things CD did
The truth is invisable
to
toddler in a tub
true..*>*
Tunnel Rat
TV
ugh..bal
Video from the archives.
w*>*
web.*>*
web eyes
what is divinity op?
who the hell wants to
Why? Does he see
Why not stay a
will*>*
You came back from the
you mean
You should look at
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 01:49:03 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: I'm splittin' a gut on this!
Message:
FOMCL, repeatedly.

Ok. ok, I'll take 'pokey' for a 100, Alex.
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 03:13:03 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Miloochie
Subject: I'm splittin' a gut on this!
Message:
Dear Miloochie,
I am a brunette but think I just had a blonde moment. Where is VP!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

'FOMCL, repeatedly.'
I reapeated the letters F-O-M-C-L, thinking with speed I would hear your choice... Then I read the next line. I still don't understand FOMCL. I'm the one with the blonde roots!
Love and would appreciate any help on this one,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 13:21:31 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: I'm splittin' hairs
Message:
Dearest Robyn,

FWIW, before I read Brian's post I was DITD, and then AFAIKnew I was abreviating with by black (well, peppered) hair roots secured (what's left of them), but SATGROOVY's creativity had me so 'blissed out' I DHAC what I was writing. IIRC, I almost hit my head on the edge of the desk twice as I kept coming up for air (maybe I did), reading more of pokey's handles, LOL, until I Couldn'tGU. OTOH, it was like I was ROTFL, then ROTFLOL, then ROTFLMAO, but actually I was...

...Falling Off My Chair Laughing.

So, TIA for bringing this to my attention, because my SO was not around and couldn't help me WRT proper communication. My POA is to go to an IRC, like on AOL, and get someone with a net POV to point me to a FAQ for posting NG's.

IMO, it should be NBD, but I may find I have to pick up some blonde hair dye (or a light colored rug) if I still can't decipher the meaning of 'VP.'

TTFN,

Miloochie
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 13:37:01 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: I'm splittin' hairs
Message:
...Falling Off My Chair Laughing.

I always thought FOMCL was 'Falling ON my COMPUTER Laughing.'
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 15:24:30 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Miloochie
Subject: I'm splittin' hairs
Message:
Dear Miloochie,
OK, you have been added as an honorary member of the babble club with Willie Kranz and Lady Jane! :)
When I got to the part about VP, I was LOL!
VP is a poster here who has been away for a while. He always emails me blonde jokes.
My favorite which wasn't from VP:
What did the blonde say when she looked into the box of Cherrios?
Oh, donut seeds!

Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 22:51:07 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: I'm splittin' hairs
Message:
'VP' stands for 'Virtual Premie'.

VP
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 00:08:03 (EST)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Virtually yours (ot)
Message:
Thanks, VP.

Now my curiosity is sparked. What does 'Virtual Premie' mean to you? I could interpret 'Virtual' at least two different ways.

Webster's: being in essence or effect, though not in fact; potential, -ly adv. to all intents and purposes.

Interesting handle, for certain.

Miloochie

PS Loved the cheerios joke Robyn related.
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 03:58:26 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Miloochie&VP
Subject: Virtually yours (ot)
Message:
Dear the two of you!
See I knew it was Miloochie, sorry for my misspelling up above, or Nim but hey that blonde joke was mine! Of course I heard it on the radio but VP has been sending me great ones ever since. I save them but only 2 jokes have ever stayed with me the Cherrios and...
There is a woman who finds an old lamp and polishes it and a genie appears and grants her 3 wishes. First she wished for a million dollars and poof, there is the money stacked up beside her. Second she wishes for a yatch and in the water outside her home there is a yatch. Third she wishes for her cat fluffy to be turned into a handsome prince and poof there he is georgous and standing beside her. He turns to her and says, 'Now aren't you sorry you had me fixed!'
Now you know all I know in the arena of jokes anyway. :) The Robyn comedy moment is over and back to sleep I go.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 11:42:26 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: Virtual sexual relations (ot)
Message:
I am suprised Clinton did not use this one....

Well, we virtually had no sex...meaning for all intents and purposes we did not have sex, but in fact we did have sex...nah...I suppose the is got him off more clearly.
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 15:44:36 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: Virtually yours (ot)
Message:
Yes, the Websters is a good definition, because I never received knowledge. I was an aspirant for a LONG time.

When I first posted here, I stated how glad I was to find the knowledge techniques on-line. I said I had been seeking them for a long time. I think Mr. Ex (?)said something like, 'You are the first Virtual Premie' meaning I had received knowledge via the internet. That name made sense to me from that perspective as well as from Webster's.

How about Miloochie? Is that your real name or a handle?
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 15:48:10 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: Virtually yours (ot)
Message:
P.S.
The Hedonist in me likes the PV (Perpetually Vigorous, was it?) nickname much better--maybe I'll post as that instead! ;) snicker
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 03:02:20 (EST)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: The Bill Burke Contest my vote
Message:
oh god....
A good laugh for the day. I cast my vote for

lp...*>*

I mean it really says it just right- just enough to give a hint to fire the thought and one KNOWS that here is where further understanding lies.
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 03:08:34 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Brian
Subject: The Bill Burke Contest
Message:
Dear Brian and Katie,
Thanks! Excellent! I knew EACTLY which one was my favorite it was just a matter of getting down to it. I was surprized how many were familiar.
I liked:
erma bombeck (just cause I love her)

pokey (I remember a whole thing about pokey and gumby, whatever
happened to gumby?)

And the #1 best burke is..................
SATGROOVY

There is just no contest in my eyes anyway bill. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 08:47:20 (EST)
From: Anonomousie
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: The Burkeoid Contest
Message:
My favorite is the Anonomousie posts!
I realise I didn't explain what I meant very well.

You know how folks take a name like oh, 'Sandra' and
run with that for a while.
And sometimes new names crop up for a while and I have a hard time
figureing out who they are. AE comes to mind. I thought that
was Jimmie for quite a while. Turns out it isn't, it's a
secret poster from her majesties sunny kingdom.

I did do -DVD- after CD posts for a while.
The DAWN and Betty words MUST have been part of a sentence!

I guess the -Anonmousie- persona is the one true alternate
name I have used as another person.

Satguroovy gets my vote.
Thanks for the effort, glad I made that comment!
oh, yeah, this is bb
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 12:39:53 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Anonomousie
Subject: The Burkeoid Contest
Message:
AE was me, of course. For sheer panache, it has to be, 'el presidente' which gets my vote although some of the half sentence ones are very avant guarde.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 00:00:26 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Anonomousie
Subject: The Burkeoid Contest
Message:
Just wanted to tell you that I'm one of your biggest fans, even as you're one of my biggest headaches :)

As for my personal vote, I gotta go with If there were rules [snicker]
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 22:47:50 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Anonomousie
Subject: The Burkeoid Contest
Message:
Burke,
YOU were Anonomousie? Shit, I completely missed that. (I thought that was a chick.)

I forgot about Satgroovy. Yeah, that's right up there with stark ravin' burke.

Now about goomradji's mom...snicker
VP
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Date: Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 23:58:04 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: The Burkeoid Contest
Message:
Hi VP!
anonomousie was a creation of JIm.
He invented the character and then was throwing her out of his house so I gave her new life.
She was a problem for Jim and if I had been sharp, I would
have dug her out a week ago when Jim was going through
that group talk.
She would have added a humorous side to it.
I'm actually hoping Jim doesn't take too long of a vacation.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 00:19:35 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: The Burkeoid Contest
Message:
bill
I missed out last week as I was off-line. I didn't see the group thing with Jim, but you're right--anonomousie would have spiced things up.
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 09:13:54 (EST)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Brian
Subject: The Bill Burke Contest
Message:
I think you overlooked 'Bilovich'. That is the Slavic surname Bill gave himself out of affection for me, I think. Thanks Bill, I appreciate it.
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 10:14:02 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Brian/ bb
Subject: The Bill Burke Contest
Message:
Yes Bill is our forum poet, who reinvents himself and the English language everyday. He's too creative to be tied down by one name, man!! A poet always knows how to surprise with language--I think BB is our Jack Kerouac, we are fortunate to be the site of his graffitti, a lot of truth comes out in his ramblings, we love ya, bb!!
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 00:45:14 (EST)
From: Bilovich
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: The Bill Burke Contest
Message:
That's right Mili,
Like I said before, your tough as nails and very smart.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 10:16:49 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Mili
Subject: The Bill Burke Contest
Message:
Bilovich might have been used in Forum II. I was pretty woozy after compiling the Forum III names, and so I abandoned my higher aspirations of listing ALL of the names. I'm getting woozy again just thinking about it...
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 14:12:10 (EST)
From: Ophelia
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: The Bill Burke Contest
Message:
The girls and I took a poll and decided that of all the exes, Bill would be the most fun in bed. Variety, of course, being the spice of life.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 15:43:35 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: The Bill Burke Contest
Message:
It's a tough choice, Bill. I really liked 'dropping the bb's' (can't you just hear them?), 'Fuddha', 'random letters', and, of course 'The Other One'. But my favorite so far is still 'Stark Raving Burke'.

Love you -
Katie
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 16:03:10 (EST)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: No Billy Club?
Message:
Disappointed that I didn't see Billy Club, but maybe next time.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 22:40:46 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Bill is creative
Message:
When I first got on the forum, it took me a few days to figure out which posts were bill's. It became a game.

As for the contest, I always liked 'stark raving burke'-
I think it sort of hits the nail on the head, don't you?
Once I think he signed a post to me 'Jambi' which had me rolling on the floor.

You gotta love 'im!
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Date: Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 20:26:00 (EST)
From: tiny tina
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: TRASHING DA HART
Message:
Seems as if this x site is starting to bloom. People are becoming more communicative and less insulting. Let's keep it respectful.
THE MAN is not these other people you guys rag about. I once saw the Man carry his son ever so gently, so tender, more kind and soft than anything I have ever seen.
It seems as if there are alot of ex ashramers here.
One left his/her brain/shoes at the door. That's probably the problem.
One wasn't supposed to not use the brain.
Of course there were a lot of idiots in the ashram, that's why I never moved in,
but that didn't turn me away from the Man,
they were 'whatever', not Him.
Just because some people were mormons it never was him, to me.
Being someone who continues to see da lite, hear the silence,drink the 'living waters', breath the respect,
I, personally would appreciate the truth
concerning your acts w/HIM, not some spaced out premoid.
Leave his family out of it.
Ever here them sing?
When you guys can sing like that, it would make your day.
Please, all families have problems/joys,
keep your gripes to him,not them.
The true mormons of you, leaving your brains at the door, incinuate that the Man trashed kids,
please, your children are your children,
you don't need anyone to tell you how to care for them,
it's natural.
Don't blame him because you had a kid.
Want to be a monk, be one, fine.
Please don't make it sound like the man trashed your child,
for sure some spaced out premoid surely could have,
but please respect the ones who still love their :teacher:
I have known many assh... premoids, still do,
they truly are greedy, unconscious, etc. I hate them.
But these premoids are not him,
and don't you ever say that the Man wants your childen messed up.
Just cause some english/american/indian mahatma sucked,
don't make the mistake of thinking the Man encouraged this.
The satsang meetings we all went to, were canned,
probably because there were so many concepts
spewing from the boring living religious,
I bet some of you.
He promised you peace. Now it's war.
Leave my family out of it, if you have a gripe with me,
leave his family out of it, if you have a gripe with him.
I hope some of you
Practice from your heart,
for if you do,
you will see the site of sites.
WANT A SITE TO BE ADDICTED TO, THE SITE INSIDE
THE DEAL WE HAVE IS BETWEEN ONE MASTER, ONE STUDENT,
DON'T BE A MORMON AND PUT ME/THEM/WHOEVER IN BETWEEN.
My understanding is that I have to approach this thing,
very subtly, I do, I'm glad I do,
and I hate
when old hag housemothers/housefathers trash
the living
heart as if they were owed something.
You guys probably live in england.
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Date: Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 21:45:11 (EST)
From: large marge
Email: None
To: tiny tina
Subject: TRASHING DA HART
Message:
tiny tina,

perhaps there is no method whereby
human beings can be taught to love
without establishing within them
some belief system which can be
broken down and torn apart by the
rational mind. In reality, there
is no way to trash da hart. But
those who set themselves up to show
the way are bound to be discovered
sooner or later to be charlatans.
Does it really matter?
The true heart remains intact.
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Date: Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 21:49:02 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: tiny tina
Subject: no
Message:
He didn't leave my family out of it. For most of us, he forced us to disregard our family where they had our own interests at heart. He effectively hurt our parents, lovers, and children as much or more than he hurt us.

Some people are liars. Some people are cheaters. Some people are abusers. Few people have the means, desire and/or ignorance to lie, cheat and abuse en masse. Miragey effectively ripped off people by the thousands and as they stumbled off, away from him, he found more. The hurt is huge to the individual and is huge in numbers. THOSE NUMBERS, not his actual membership, are in the six or seven figures.

I know for myself I would never have given myself the way I did but not for the fact that he 'proclaim'ed he would 'establish peace on earth'. That people who are close to him may be hurt as he is exposed for being a ripoff is no concern of mine- it's the last concern that would occur to me. That people close to me were hurt so much, aside from me being hurt, that is what I still have to deal with even years later.

Did you ever hear the stories of parents telling their children that they love Goomiragey more than them? Personally, I find the PAMs culpable in their silence, but all the more so his family.
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 05:38:13 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Runamok
Subject: no
Message:
Yes, I agree that the PAM (people around Maharaji) do share much of the blame for what happened. If they knew that Maharaji was a fraud why the hell didn't they tell us? Instead they conspired with Maharaji in his confidence trick to make people believe that he was the Lord when they knew all along that he wasn't. Since most premies never got close to Maharaji, all their information about him came from PAM and we had no other yardstick to go by.

Marolyn was also responsible for perpetrating this charade.

Mishler spoke out but that was covered up here in Britain. We never got to hear about it. Your post is going on The truth about Maharaji web site, by the way.
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Date: Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 22:29:54 (EST)
From: Memphis Belle
Email: None
To: tiny tina
Subject: TRASHING DA HART
Message:
Tiny Tina,
In 1996 I was an aspirant
In 1997 I received Knowledge from the man.
In 1998 I left the man.

I came, I saw, I went.
I am young and new to everything in the 'World of Knowledge' (using Maharaji's term).
I was never in an ashram.
I really have no idea about losing years of my life to Maharaji.

What I am trying to tell you is that I left Maharaji because of the things he said during his Sat sang. (I don't even know what that word means)

If you listen to his words, especially as a newcomer, you can hear and feel in your heart that something is wrong.

Also, If you look at his videos, frame after frame, there is nothing but Maharaji. I fee that something is wrong with constant Maharaji on the screne for an hour.

An ex-premie here once said that a school teacher can teach you how to read, but how many people still know that teacher.

Another thing that bothered me was that there was hardly anyone
from my generation.
Almost everyone was in their 40's or 50's.
Most didn't seem to have any children.
And not very many seemed to be married.
And they all seemed able to fly all over the world to see the man
and loved to travel.

As if going all over the world will bring one closer to the heart.
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 04:05:15 (EST)
From: NuNu
Email: None
To: all
Subject: GIANT FARTS EVERYWHERE
Message:
Whewwwww! Does it stink in here or what?
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 07:36:03 (EST)
From: Luv
Email: None
To: NuNu
Subject: GIANT FARTS EVERYWHERE
Message:
I think it's 'OR WHAT' Nu Nu. Proberly what you're smelling is your self. The people on this site are freeing themselves of the cult and all its trappings. It takes allot of courage to talk openly about maharaji and not just be into group-think blindly following the meditation-teacher-formally-known-as-lord. If your heart is truly open, and you have and 'experience of knowledge' then you should be able to listen to the journeys of others, whether they agree with yours or not, with empathy. The nature of a person's journey is determined by the quality of their attitude. And that attitude is not a monolith. If you care to take a shower, and use some deoderant you might want to come back and share what meager wisdom you have with the folks on this site, but don't expect for them to agree with everything you say. There is no maturity or wisdom in that kind of attitude. Oh well, it's your journey.
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 06:06:20 (EST)
From: TINY
Email: NONE
To: Memphis Belle
Subject: TRASHING DA HART
Message:
ONLY THE HEART CAN HEAR THE HEART
YOUR LETTER WAS NICE
I AM NOT IN ANY WAY SPEAKING FOR THE MAN,
BUT FROM MY HEART TO YOURS, I WOULD WRITE HIM OR E'MAIL HIM WITH YOUR CONCERNS.
AS FAR AS I KNOW, EVERY 'MASTER' HAS SAID ONE THING.
THE LORD IS IN YOUR HEART, THE LORD IS IN MY HEART, EVERY HUMAN HEART. YOUR HEART WILL BE THE JUDGE. IT WILL GUIDE YOU.
I PRAY THE HEART, WITHIN ME, HAS SPOKEN TO YOU.
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Date: Tues, Mar 16, 1999 at 23:59:14 (EST)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: TINY
Subject: TRASHING DA HART
Message:
Tiny,

I'll need to issue you at least one SHOUTING citation for starting a new thread RANTING & RAVING & SPOUTING OFF.

Now let this sleepy Irish forum patroller get back to debuggin some lines of code for Y2K!

Top O' the Mornin to Ye.
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Date: Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 23:48:25 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: tiny tina
Subject: your post is offensive
Message:
First I have to question why you write in some sort of odd poetic style.

There are two things I find quite offensive. One is the Rawat loves his son and holds him tenderly. Many evil people throughout history have loved their own children. I find Rawat's behavior more offensive in light of the fact he seems to think parental love is unique to him and that his own children are more deserving of protection and safety and love than other people's children.

Secondly, Rawat did know about Jagdeo. He had it in his control to stop him. He did not. End of story.

Your style reminds me of a premie who posts here named Keith.
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 06:49:49 (EST)
From: Luv
Email: None
To: tiny tina
Subject: TRASHING DA HART
Message:
Da problem is not da hart, and I don't think people are trashing the heart on this site. What they're trashing is a contradicting manipulating individual who want's to own/enslave people. You know, Ted Bundy was a very tender person also, he was very good looking and very intelligent. A law student, who never had a problem getting a date. Thing is, he murdered every one he dated. I've gone to more than 100 of maharaji's programs/events, and seen and heard the guy flip flop, lie, use word definitions to manipulate, and the premies just sit there and laugh at everything he says. Maharaji can say somebody died and everyone in the auidence just laughs. This guy came to America in 1971 claiming he was the LORD and promised to bring peace on earth, etc. etc. etc. etc. ect. and on and on and on...... My heart has nothing to do with Prempal Rawat. I have a very incredible 'experience' of my soul without him. He is'nt even a good teacher. There are better teacher's of the inner experience out there than Prem Rawat. I heard Swami Sat Chi Ananda say 'I'd rather have a few gems than a truck load of cobblestones'. Well maharaji's devotees are like cobblestones and he just walks all over them. All he's interested in is numbers. He's got devotees who are hurting and he ignores them. Maharaji is a mediocre meditation teacher at best. He would have done better to openly charge people money for the techniques and instruct them accordingly than to perpetuate the charade that he has. I can go on forever about this guy, one thing for sure I'm not recommending him to anyone .
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 07:33:01 (EST)
From: ME
Email: NONE
To: Luv
Subject: TRASHING DA HART
Message:
THE ONLY REASON I WRITE TO U GUYS IS CAUSE I WON'T JUST LET U TRASH....... WHY DID U NOT LEAVE AFTER ONE VISIT... WHY GO 2 ONE HUNDRED PROGRAMS, Y COMPARE THE MAN 2 TED BUNDY.... HOW LEWD... HE NEVER LIED 2 MOI....NEVER GAVE ME ANYTHING BUT TEARS FILLED W/ LITE..... SORRY BUT U WOULDN'T WANT MOI TO TELL U BOUT U BEING LIKE A MASS KILLER....U R NOT...LEAVE IT BE....TALK FACT... NOT FICTION....THE MANS A GEM... AND I DIG HIM...LET ME BE W MY FEEL...TALK FACT JACK...QUIT SPREADING RUMORS,INSULTS,THINGS THAT R MADE UP IN YOUR MIND....BRINGING PEACE TO DA WURLD...INVOLVES ONE PERSON AT A TIME...THERE R ALOT OF PEOPLE OUT HERE....LET THEM JUDGE WITHOUT RUDE,LEWD,SPEWED,FOOLED,MULED TALES OF FANTASY.....WE HERE IN DA STATES DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT A COBBLESTONE IS....THE MAN SAY LEAVE IF NO LIKE, Y TRASH W/U/LIES.
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 07:51:43 (EST)
From: Luv
Email: None
To: ME
Subject: TRASHING DA HART
Message:
First of all, I did'nt understand most of what you're saying, you're writing in some kind of shorthand??? Secondly, WHEN YOU PUT THINGS IN CAPITALS ITS LIKE SHOUTING! Speak, if you so desire, but there is no need to SHOUT. Thirdly, I am in the United States and so is Swami Sat Chit Ananda, and there are small towns in America that have cobblestones. You should get out more. And lastly, WHAT I AM SAYING IS MY EXPERIENCE! I hung in there with maharaji for more than 20 years hopeing and praying that this guy was it. But he disappointed me and let me down, not once but many times, and I have a right in the U.S. (FREEDOM OF SPEECH YOU KNOW) to say whatever I want. Maharaji does not want his devotees to have free speech. He has censorship on everything! So now I'm free of him and I'll keep expressing myself the way I please. Thank you very much!
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 11:43:41 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: ME
Subject: trashingyourtrashyapproach2us
Message:
Look hon, we're not making shit up and we're going to incredible lengths to attempt to get to the bottom of accusations. We're looking for multiple accounts of the same things and we're finding them over and over again, with Jagdeo's abuse, DECA's lack standards, accounts of M's lifestyle and more, much much more.

You don't need to come back and read our posts. We don't encourage you to. You can just walk away from the forum if you so choose. But talking in your 90's style hip babytalk probably isn't going to help the situation much. You think we're going to get so knocked out by your cool and decide that you must feel more love than anyone on here? You sound like a total fake who can't actually say a whole sentence at a time because you're so full of shit.

Why don't you either respect us enough to try to communicate honestly and intelligently ALL of the time, or beat it back to lurkerville or the premie forum or whatever.
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 12:26:51 (EST)
From: JELLY
Email: None
To: tiny tina
Subject: WHAT DO MORMON'S?
Message:
have to do with anything? Are you being bigoted?
Or do you mean MORON?
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 14:17:03 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JELLY
Subject: WHAT DO MORMON'S?
Message:
Jelly: I think it was a freudian slip..... he he he:-)
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 10:39:08 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: tiny tina
Subject: His own son?
Message:
Tina: Whoopy! Big deal! The fact that he did something 'special' for his own flesh and blood, doesn't mean that he isn't a fraud. I hold my daughter tenderly, etc, and THAT doesn't necessarily mean that I'm a good-guy. Even violent criminals 'treat their own' with alot more compassion than they treat their victims. Doesn't mean a thing...
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Date: Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 11:36:54 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: whatever you want to call it
Message:
Dear All Ex-premies,

I caught the website somebody made called the Sheep Channel. It was figuratively an eviscerating experience for me. I had no idea how much negative energy I have been attracting from whoever did that site or digs it.

I am truly sorry if I hurt or hassled anyone. It was never my motive. I wish everyone here a good life and a healing from whatever ails each. I ask your forgiveness and will take your suggestions about my apparantly screwed up presentation to heart and serious consideration.
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Date: Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 12:41:43 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: whatever you want to call it
Message:
Sandy, I think (and I think you have said this, too) that if we were speaking face to face, we would be able to read the body language and facial expressions and have a better understanding of what you are saying, but in this medium none of that comes across. What does come across is a self-righteousness and a sense of passive-agressive spiritual superiority. I get the impression (which I'm sure is wrong, but it is the impression I get, nonetheless) that within your own circle you are considered a wise holy man, but that is not the case here on the forum. I think that you should read your posts for the little spiritual digs, and also stop quoting Jesus and the Bible; whether you see it or not, it comes across as Bible-thumping and is annoying (I already told you how I feel about your paraphrases). I sense that you are sincere in your message above, and I want you to know that I am sincere in my response. We can communicate, but we all need to edit before we hit the 'submit' button (I know that I am guilty of many of the same things I have said about you, too.).
Sincerely,
Michael
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Date: Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 13:15:19 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: You just saved me.....
Message:
about $500.00 in counseling fees. Really. Thanks for your heartfelt response. I was probably like this long before Maharaji, so I own it, not him. And I am open and willing to change for the better.
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Date: Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 18:08:59 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: You just saved me.....
Message:
Thank you for your response; I started thinking after posting that I was probably coming off like some know-it-all myself! I don't charge for my services, but I accept love-offerings, and I'd love $500.00 ;-) Okay, I'll give you the almost-clergy discount of $250.00. Here is a joke I heard today: A British officer spotted a busker at the bottom of the escalator of the London Underground. The busker had a sign which read: 'VETERAN SOLDIER OF THE FALKLANDS WAR.' The officer thought, 'Poor chap, I was there and it was awful!' Feeling sorry for a fellow veteran, the officer took 20 pounds out of his wallet and gave it to the busker. The officer was then greeted with a hearty: 'Gracias, Senor!!'
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 01:06:13 (EST)
From: bb..bad boy
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: whatever you want to call it
Message:
Hi Sanford,
That was my poem on the sheep channel.
The first post by someone else was just your words, I don't know
if those two posts should be taken very hard by you.
I was just having fun about posting as a man then as a woman.

OK, you are not Sandra.
Good to know.

Are you getting this snow?
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 01:25:42 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: bb..bad boy
Subject: whatever you want to call it
Message:
Bill,

The Sheep Channel was both complimentary and insulting at the same time, which left me in that wonderful zen spot of 0. One moment I was chuckling at the fact that certain words I had said which I consider eternally true were broadcast out on yet another channel.
(Like love being the strongest force in the universe.) Then I flipped over to that hurt place of being mocked, etc.

What I am left with is the feeling that it was a low blow, but good was accomplished at the same time.
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 12:00:10 (EST)
From: DON'T MISS...
Email: None
To: ALL
Subject: Bill's great poem...
Message:
new satsang and an exciting new link, all on the

THE SHEEP CHANNEL

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Date: Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 09:15:38 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex--premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Got this Feedback
Message:
It's from someone who wants their name witheld:

I was just wondering if anyone has done a study about what became of the kids that grew up during the period of EXTREME devotion to GMJ? They were often neglected and fobbed off as too worldly (ie the process of parenting) to deal with ESPECIALLY during the times when GMJ was in town for a programme. From what I can gather LOTS of them have had major problems in adolescense and young adulthood... I know of many cases of heroin addiction and early pregnancy amongst these kids.

The main reason that I left DLM was because the lack of respect shown to families and especially children was appalling. I was once told by a Mahatma in a knowledge review that by becoming pregnant I had made a conscious choice AGAINST Maharaji, ie I was choosing the World instead of a spiritual life... what a load of crap! Eventually I couldn't do it anymore. I wasnt going to neglect my kids for GMJ, and my marriage broke up because financially as well, my husband ALWAYS put Maharaji first (and still does, 10 years later).

I could never figure out why Maharaji's kids were any more valuable as human beings than mine were... they were ALWAYS well looked after while we were definitely encouraged to ignore ours as much as possible, or at least put them second to Maharaji!
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Date: Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 10:02:57 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Got this Feedback
Message:
RIGHT ON!!!!! This is so true. Thanks whoever wrote this. I admire you for doing the right thing by your kids. Yes, isn't it interesting that M's own kids always received the best attention, schooling, etc, while his peons (premies) were encouraged to abandon their own kids in pursuit of Knowledge. Yet another contradiction in M's twisted and unhealthy world. Wake up premies, this isn't love!!!
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Date: Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 11:57:17 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Got this Feedback..kids
Message:
Yes, one of the themes that emerges again and again on this forum was how destructive the cult was for those who never chose to go along for the ride...children of premies.

I was very shook up by someone who told the story of a parent who refused to tell her kids she loved them more than the guru. That just makes me ill to the depths.

AJWs journey..I know I always quote it but it is so powerful...is full of things like this...the parents that were willing to send a six year old to live at Unity school...the mother and baby in the rain who can't come in...agya..no kids...

I knew plenty of premies, the fringers, who refused to put their kids second, but that made them bad premies in the eyes of the honchos and likely that was a trickle down from Rawat who must have been jealous of the only devotion that might surpase his devotees love for him..the love of a mother or father for a child.

Anyone ever think there was a little hostility in some of the bizarre names he chose for kids? Remember how premies loved to ask him to name their kids...didn't he name a ton of them Irving or something? Didn't he name a lot of them really ugly names? Like, you gonna bug me with this, here...I dare ya to put THIS on the birth certificate. Anyone recall?

Yes, this is a truly sad subject. If there is anything in my life that still makes me believe in God it is my children. They are a precious gift and as good as life gets. It is horrible that the brainwashing was so powerful that parents felt guilty for treasuring their children.

Ucckk.....
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Date: Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 12:24:37 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: all
Subject: premies parents...more
Message:
I was just thinking about this post and thinking about my premie days and my ex days. Given that it is possible that someone may recognize who I am through my posts I want to clarify this...most of my premie parent friends DID put their kids first. In fact I recall being friends with some premies who were rather exemplary parents. In fact, being the young mom I was, they really helped me to be a better mom as they remained friends with me despite my being an ex. But these people were never the hard core satsang every night type premies, they had jobs, families, in laws, PTAs...and followed the guru on their own terms which meant they did not sacrifice their families to him. I think they were judged by the hard core types as not being devoted enough. Thus my label 'fringe'.

I knew and knew of people who did put their kids second. But among the people I knew well that was not common.

Anyway, I just want to thank those people who were good parents and helped me and not appear to be spitting in their faces by painting all with the same brush.
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Date: Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 22:08:46 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: premies parents...more
Message:
Hi g's mom,

I was really young when I had my first child and named him after the Light and the Sacred Word. Premie parents in my community were wonderful in helping me learn to care for my kids! They always gave me baby showers, and we traded off childcare so we could go to satsang. Whenever I had to leave my abusive husband, there were many premies who let me crash at their homes, fed me, sent me to festivals, etc. The community of premie parents where I lived were generally loving. There are the occasional horror stories, but overall, I believe my children benefited from my association with premie parents. Bear in mind that I was coming from the quintessential dysfunctional alcoholic/religious family upbringing, so my premiehood was actually an improvement.

When I first had children, I considered raising them to be my service. Then I found out that Maharaji did not consider that to be service; however, premies who took care of his kids were doing service. Never could quite reconcile that one.

I'm just glad I never went through with the idea of leaving them to move into the ashram.

With love,
eb
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 00:05:20 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: premies parents...more
Message:
yes, that is what I remembered too, is not to forget the good premie parents, because I knew many. I still hold many of the birth and parenting values I learned from premies to this day. And it was better than Le Leche Leaugue for breastfeeding support!

I still think though you had to accept that people were going to think you were a bad premie if you chose to be a good parent. But I knew quite a few who chose to be good parents.
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Date: Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 19:30:34 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: Naming Kids
Message:
I read your communication with Mary down below about the Rome program. Very powerful.

But I remember that a premie actually gave birth to a little girl during the Rome program in 1977. And M made a big deal of it while speaking from his throne. Anyhow, he said he named the little girl about the ugliest name I ever heard: SATGANGA.

I think that means 'the river of truth.' M said that because she was born at a festival during satsang, she was born in the river of truth.

Later I found out that the parents of Satganga we from Providence, Rhode Island, and their last name was Klinkenberg. So, the little girl's name was Satganga Klinkenberg. Poor kid. She would be 21 now. I assume she rebelled and changed her name. (One thing I never figured out was how the Mother was allowed to fly from Providence to Rome while so close to giving birth. I didn't think they allowed that for health reasons, but I wouldn't be surprised that a premie would risk it and rely on 'grace.')
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 00:07:53 (EST)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Satganda Klinkenberg
Message:
God...we really should write a book or a movie script. Hey did you ever see Flashback?
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 18:50:47 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: Satganda Klinkenberg
Message:
The screenplay could be called 'From the FIles of Satganga Klinkenberg'. God what a name
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 19:26:57 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: Got this Feedback..kids
Message:
Hi all

Brian, I wonder if the person who wrote that feedback is reading here - I'd really like to send her my best wishes, and to assure her she is not alone in her perceptions and feelings about how premie kids were sometimes treated. If she's interested, she can get my e-mail address through Katie.

Also appreciated your posts, g's mom and eb. I think it's really important that we acknowledge those people who DID put their kids first. I also knew many. I think the thing that really bugged - and bugs - me is that in so many ways, premies had to choose. Whether to go to satsang tonight, or to stay home with the kids. Whether to go into (more) debt to go to an 'event', or fix up the house. Whether to accept the opportunity for service or work with little Prem on his spelling. Obviously, parents have to make choices as to what to take on, and how to spend money, in relation to their commitment to their children, all the time. But very rarely are the non-family options held up as the purpose of life, the only thing really worth doing, the direction you take if you are really understanding the gift of the Perfect Master. The pressures to make one's choices in favour of satsang, service and darshan so far as possible was very great. I think many people tried to juggle their responsibility to their kids with their responsibility to K and MJ, but given the pressure to do as much as possible to enhance one's experience of K, and to show one's 'appreciation' to MJ, kids tended to find their parents pushed to the limit.

And remember MJ's scathing response whenever anyone raised the issue of 'responsibility'? This was a big 'drip' for me - the way he set 'responsibility' AGAINST love. I wanted so badly to say to him: the love I want ENCOMPASSES responsibility. Especially when it comes to kids!

Hope all is well with you, g's mom and eb. And Helen

Diz
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Date: Sun, Mar 14, 1999 at 22:40:12 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Diz
Subject: Got this Feedback..kids
Message:
Brian, I wonder if the person who wrote that feedback is reading here - I'd really like to send her my best wishes, and to assure her she is not alone in her perceptions and feelings about how premie kids were sometimes treated. If she's interested, she can get my e-mail address through Katie.

I don't specifically know if she reads the forum, but I suspect that she does. She can email Katie at petkat@mail.trib.net if she wants, or she can contact me at the address listed above this post. Either way we can send her your email address if she's interested in corresponding with you. And you're a sweetheart to offer :)
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Date: Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 18:53:47 (EST)
From: diz
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Thanks, Brian (nt)
Message:
nt
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