Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 49

From: May 27, 1999

To: Jun 4, 1999

Page: 4 Of: 5



Red Bird -:- International Law -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 10:30:53 (EDT)
__Catweasel -:- International Law -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 11:25:10 (EDT)
____Gail -:- International Law -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 11:31:08 (EDT)
______Catweasel -:- International Time Travel -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 12:29:58 (EDT)
____Red Bird -:- International Law -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 11:57:09 (EDT)

spartakus -:- your end is near -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 09:27:21 (EDT)
__Catweasel -:- your end is near -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 11:49:30 (EDT)
____AJW -:- The end is near -:- Tues, Jun 01, 1999 at 20:27:44 (EDT)
______Catweasel -:- The end is near -:- Wed, Jun 02, 1999 at 08:22:18 (EDT)

Nigel -:- Cultivating a devotee -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 09:26:45 (EDT)
__Helen -:- Cultivating a devotee -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 09:41:52 (EDT)
____Helen -:- Cultivating a devotee -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 10:07:15 (EDT)
______TD -:- Cultivating a devotee -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 21:11:43 (EDT)
________Helen -:- Mao and Maharaji -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 22:05:04 (EDT)
__Gail -:- Cultivating a devotee -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 10:16:13 (EDT)
____Fred -:- Flying Carpet Syndrome -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 01:48:25 (EDT)
__Sid Nigh -:- Cultivating a devotee -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 11:52:45 (EDT)
____nigel -:- So speaks a CULTivated mind -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 12:29:51 (EDT)
______Marianne -:- So speaks a CULTivated mind -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 12:35:41 (EDT)
________nigel -:- So speaks a CULTivated mind -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 14:01:03 (EDT)
______Sid Nigh -:- So speaks a CULTivated mind -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 21:02:07 (EDT)
________nigel -:- Well spotted, sir... -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 21:33:17 (EDT)
____Jim -:- Excellent! (Nigel, not Sid) -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 14:49:56 (EDT)
__cp -:- Cultivating a devotee -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 16:28:35 (EDT)
__Liz -:- Thanks Nigel -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 01:04:59 (EDT)
__Robyn -:- Cultivating a devotee -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 17:29:50 (EDT)
____Gail -:- The Simplicity of Empty Minds -:- Tues, Jun 01, 1999 at 21:19:15 (EDT)
__RT -:- I prefer Yogurt Culture -:- Tues, Jun 01, 1999 at 09:05:16 (EDT)

fabfeb -:- children of premies -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 23:08:01 (EDT)
__fabfeb -:- children of premies (addendum) -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 23:11:50 (EDT)
__Gail -:- children of premies -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 23:24:59 (EDT)
____cp -:- children of premies -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 00:00:26 (EDT)
____Catweasel -:- children of premies -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 04:12:51 (EDT)
__Red Bird -:- children of premies -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 01:44:31 (EDT)
__Catweasel -:- childrenof PeoplewithKnowledge -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 04:07:34 (EDT)
____nigel -:- Maharaji's eloquent spokesman. -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 07:00:18 (EDT)
______Catweasel -:- no,just me stating the facts. -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 08:23:12 (EDT)
________nigel -:- And the fact that you are... -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 11:21:52 (EDT)
__________Catweasel -:- Blame Jim -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 11:54:24 (EDT)
____Red Bird -:- childrenof PeoplewithKnowledge -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 09:13:20 (EDT)
____Helen -:- childrenof PeoplewithKnowledge -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 09:23:50 (EDT)
______Red Bird -:- childrenof PeoplewithKnowledge -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 09:35:35 (EDT)
________Helen -:- childrenof PeoplewithKnowledge -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 09:54:38 (EDT)
________Fred -:- Wadi Sue -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 01:30:47 (EDT)
__________Gail -:- Wadi Sue works for Visions -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 08:42:02 (EDT)
____________Gerry -:- Ah, Gail, my favourite hobby -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 20:01:27 (EDT)
__I think you have made -:- a mistake with your e-mail -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 08:01:23 (EDT)

Jim -:- Why I love being an ex -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 21:56:46 (EDT)
__Marianne -:- Filled with sadness -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 22:38:02 (EDT)
____Jim -:- Tragicomic? -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 20:21:47 (EDT)
______Marianne -:- Pathetic -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 21:57:46 (EDT)
________Red Bird -:- Pathetic -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 00:06:42 (EDT)
__________Fred -:- Rosie L -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 01:38:17 (EDT)
__________Gail -:- Winston Churchill's Ashtray -:- Tues, Jun 01, 1999 at 21:50:34 (EDT)
________spartakus -:- money -:- Mon, May 31, 1999 at 01:34:34 (EDT)
__Mary M -:- Why I love being an ex -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 23:57:16 (EDT)

Marianne -:- Our favorite scandals -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 21:28:39 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Maharaji directed traffic -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 21:35:20 (EDT)
____Marianne -:- Important fact -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 21:39:22 (EDT)
______nigel -:- And less we forget... -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 06:34:00 (EDT)
________Roger E. Drek -:- Pat Halley is alive, I think -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 02:36:32 (EDT)
__________Nim -:- Think again Drek, ole pal -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 10:07:35 (EDT)
____________Gail -:- Are you ever going to speak -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 13:00:52 (EDT)
____________Roger E. Drek -:- Think again Drek, ole pal -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 14:48:45 (EDT)
______________Nim -:- Think again Drek, ole pal -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 17:47:12 (EDT)
________________Marianne -:- Think again Drek, ole pal -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 18:46:57 (EDT)
________________Fred -:- Think again Drek, ole pal -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 21:34:29 (EDT)
__________________Roger E. Drek -:- Nim, we wait with baited breat -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 22:07:37 (EDT)
____________________Nim -:- Wait no more guys! -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 23:22:18 (EDT)
______________________Fred -:- Great Story! -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 23:45:38 (EDT)
______________________Roger E. Drek -:- Great! ***Best*** -:- Mon, May 31, 1999 at 02:23:24 (EDT)
__Jean-Michel -:- Favorite? -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 06:28:17 (EDT)
__Liz -:- Honeymoon dillie scandal -:- Mon, May 31, 1999 at 00:09:34 (EDT)
____Mary M -:- Honeymoon dillie scandal -:- Mon, May 31, 1999 at 11:01:00 (EDT)

selene -:- HST and Leary. OT? not so fast -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 21:23:53 (EDT)
__Marianne -:- Not OT to me -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 21:44:48 (EDT)
____selene -:- Not OT to me -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 21:55:52 (EDT)
______x-0-x -:- Not OT to me -:- Mon, May 31, 1999 at 03:20:05 (EDT)
________selene -:- Not OT to me -:- Mon, May 31, 1999 at 13:45:44 (EDT)
__________x-0-x -:- Not OT to me -:- Tues, Jun 01, 1999 at 04:11:22 (EDT)
____Fred -:- Susie Bai -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 02:01:26 (EDT)
______Marianne -:- Susie Bai -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 17:07:38 (EDT)
______Katie -:- Susie Bai -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 21:32:15 (EDT)
__Katie -:- Not OT to me either -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 00:54:24 (EDT)
____Selene -:- Not OT to me either -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 01:13:58 (EDT)
______cp -:- Not OT to me either -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 01:47:08 (EDT)
________Helen -:- NDEs -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 08:46:06 (EDT)
__________Bobby -:- NDEs -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 14:12:28 (EDT)
____________cp -:- NDEs -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 17:02:52 (EDT)
____________Selene -:- NDEs yes all I agreee -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 19:20:57 (EDT)
______________Katie -:- I agree with Selene -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 22:10:18 (EDT)
____Liz -:- Not OT to me either -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 02:09:14 (EDT)

Are you Co-dependant -:- on Maharaji-Take the Test -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 18:13:55 (EDT)

Rob's.. -:- ..in the House. -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 17:40:37 (EDT)
__Rob -:- 6 o'clock and all's well, -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 17:58:21 (EDT)
____Gail -:- Come on, Rob! This is video -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 18:21:52 (EDT)
______Mike -:- Come on, Rob! This is video -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 18:52:39 (EDT)
______Mary M -:- Come on, Rob! -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 21:18:48 (EDT)
________Marianne -:- Come on, Mary! (OT) -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 21:33:37 (EDT)
__________Mary M -:- Come on, Mary! (OT) -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 21:52:27 (EDT)
____________Marianne -:- PENANCE!!!! WAY OT -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 21:57:31 (EDT)
______________Mary M -:- PENANCE!!!! WAY OT -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 22:41:46 (EDT)
____Robyn -:- 6 o'clock and all's well, -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 19:05:43 (EDT)
____Ron -:- 6 o'clock and all's well, -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 19:41:56 (EDT)
______gerry -:- 6 o'clock and all's well, -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 19:56:25 (EDT)
________Marianne -:- LIZ -- IS THIS TRUE? -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 20:47:53 (EDT)
__________Fence-sitter -:- Fence-sitting -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 02:33:12 (EDT)
________cp -:- 6 o'clock and all's well, -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 20:54:39 (EDT)
__________Gerry -:- 6 o'clock and all's well, -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 21:25:42 (EDT)
____________Mary M -:- Do'na worry bout th Rrrobert -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 21:57:07 (EDT)
______________Lizzie -:- Do'na worry bout th Rrrobert -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 02:37:38 (EDT)
________Nim -:- Excellently stated, gerry!(nt) -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 20:56:20 (EDT)
________Ron -:- 6 o'clock and all's well, -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 20:57:39 (EDT)
________Robyn -:- Liz, Gerry, Ron -:- Fri, May 28, 1999 at 22:48:16 (EDT)
__________Ron -:- Robyn -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 00:58:52 (EDT)
____________Robyn -:- Robyn -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 01:24:26 (EDT)
__________Liz -:- Liz, Gerry, Ron -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 02:44:04 (EDT)
____________Gail -:- Liz, keep in touch--why not -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 12:49:06 (EDT)
____________Robyn -:- Liz, Gerry, Ron -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 17:25:46 (EDT)
________Catweasel -:- 6 o'clock Gerry's in hell!!!! -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 05:18:59 (EDT)
__________AHA! -:- cat in hell -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 09:20:41 (EDT)
____________Gail -:- I'm not sure, but I think -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 11:08:16 (EDT)
______________maybe but resides -:- here abouts -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 12:56:23 (EDT)
________________Errrfff -:- here abouts -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 13:57:34 (EDT)
__________________restrain -:- thy mouse click(nt) -:- Sat, May 29, 1999 at 14:54:24 (EDT)
________________Curious -:- here abouts -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 05:41:08 (EDT)
__________________cp -:- here abouts -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 08:05:18 (EDT)
____________________Curious -:- here abouts -:- Mon, May 31, 1999 at 10:29:14 (EDT)
__________________Catweasel -:- here abouts -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 10:06:18 (EDT)
____________________EV Security -:- here abouts -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 13:12:54 (EDT)
______________________Catweasel -:- Piss Off Fool -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 22:57:08 (EDT)
________________________EVS -:- Piss Off Fool -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 23:07:47 (EDT)
__________________________Catweasel -:- Piss Off Fool -:- Mon, May 31, 1999 at 03:33:29 (EDT)
__________________Gail -:- Don't worry about a thing! -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 13:09:47 (EDT)
__________________cp -:- Curious! -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 19:49:36 (EDT)
__________________Katie -:- ID information and reassurance -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 22:04:48 (EDT)
____________________Mary M -:- ID information and reassurance -:- Sun, May 30, 1999 at 22:40:48 (EDT)
____________________barney -:- ID information and reassurance -:- Mon, May 31, 1999 at 02:49:01 (EDT)
______________________Mary M -:- ID information and reassurance -:- Mon, May 31, 1999 at 10:26:52 (EDT)


Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 10:30:53 (EDT)
From: Red Bird
Email: None
To: Cat
Subject: International Law
Message:
Hello Cat,

I want to remind you that we pay attention to posts on this forum. We are far from mediocre and realize it would be an excercise in futility to go after M and his legions of lawyers.

I concede:

The President of Elan Vital - Attorney Linda Gross specialty unknown.

Board Member of most companies M profits from: Robert A Jacobs world renowned tax attorney

Registered Agent: Attorney Alvaro Pascotto, specialties in Aviation and Entertainment

International Organizer: Virgilio J Ciullo - specialty unknown.

So stop worrying. You are legion.

RB
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 11:25:10 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: M.I.G21?
To: Red Bird
Subject: International Law
Message:
Dear Mr Red Bird,The point is I'm not worried.Its the legal minds you dont know about that find your site and its many claims most interesting.I suppose what you say here is a bit like Parliamentry privilege,and as such you have a degree of latitude.Personally I subscribe to the theory of'Whats the difference between a dead snake in the middle ofthe road and a dead lawyer in the middle of the road?'......Skid marks in front of the Snake!!!Enjoy Jim!!
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 11:31:08 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: freedom@gtn.net
To: Catweasel
Subject: International Law
Message:
Speaking of international, why not send me a letter. I'd love to hear from you. BTW, I promise not to reveal anything you say. Just ask op. I never told what she said either.
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 12:29:58 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: International Time Travel
Message:
I will, in a round about way.
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 11:57:09 (EDT)
From: Red Bird
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: International Law
Message:
Hello Cat,

Yes, I'm quite certain you're right about the rest of the legal team.

I've heard that joke before. Over here the scenario for the skidmarks was the Jersey Turnbike;->

Enjoy the day,
RB
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 09:27:21 (EDT)
From: spartakus
Email: voodo
To: catweasel
Subject: your end is near
Message:
SHIT HEAD YOU ARE GOING TO EXPERIENCE FUNNY THINGS .... YOU CAN LAUGH AS MUCH AS YOU WANT BUT YOU WONT BE ABLE TO CLEAR THIS MESSAGE FROM YOUR MIND THE SPELL THAT I CAST ON YOU WILL TAKE EFFECT AS SOON AS YOU READ THIS REMEMBER SUPPORING THE MERCHANT OF RAINBOWS IS A CRIME AGAINST GOD !!!!!
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 11:49:30 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: Ahhh a dingo took my baby!!!
To: spartakus
Subject: your end is near
Message:
Are you near my bum,better move your bringing on a strong movement!
Ahhh ...Now thats better.......OH SPARKY ..I'M SO SORRY!!!
P.S Dont try and teach a Koori brother how to point the bone.Or you'll end up a crocodile sandwich[And make that snappy!!!!]
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Date: Tues, Jun 01, 1999 at 20:27:44 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Catweasel & Sparakus
Subject: The end is near
Message:
I sense I am in the presence of great prophets. Yeah for these are the times of which it was written, when the lion lies down next to the lamb and a little boy pees on them. I think there's a statue in Brussels somewhere.

Anth the awed.
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Date: Wed, Jun 02, 1999 at 08:22:18 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: The end is near
Message:
You sensed 50% right.Me? I'm just a weasel.And I love it!
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 09:26:45 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Cultivating a devotee
Message:
The idea that Knowledge is an experience rather than a concept or set of beliefs is both a concept and a belief in its own right. And a second fundamental idea is that of Maharaji the giver and of the experience being his unique gift.

Once it was necessary, or at least encouraged, to believe that Maharaji was Lord in Human Form. Not so today. But it is as true now as in the early years that in order to be ready to 'receive' Knowledge the aspirant must come to accept both the 'giver' and 'experience' concepts unquestioningly. This is a wise move. Otherwise, Knowledge simply wouldn't work. Even the premies will tell you as much (consciously or otherwise), and they are right.

Jonathan Cainer is an interesting example. In his Elk.org 'Lives' entry he tells about a friend showing him the meditation techniques in a tent at a pop festival. He insists, however, that he didn't really experience anything until later after formally receiving Knowledge. He offers this as proof of Maharaji's special status. I would say it illustrates something else entirely.

This is not to say people don't experience anything when meditating, nor even when listening to satsang. But what are they experiencing? They may be deeply relaxed and absorbed. They may experience profound sensory adjustments as their perceptual systems disengage from external stimuli. They may find the experience to be pleasant and meaningful.

But it takes the combined effects of the two beliefs (that their experience is 'Knowledge' and that Knowledge comes from Maharaji) in order to make the leap of faith into premiedom.

Adopting these two beliefs early on has the crucial mindwarping effect: a sense of gratitude and the formation of a strong emotional bond with the giver. (It is a one-way bond, of course.) And the experience of feeling something for Prem Rawat, embarrassing as it is to recall, can be a powerful experience in its own right - the missing X factor in Jonathan Cainer's spiritual progress - and is the devotional glue that keeps the Tub of Lard's show on the road and 24-carat plumbing in his bathroom.

That devotional feeling can take a long time coming but once it kicks in you can rely on classical conditioning to do the rest. It is funny when you contrast the way many (most? / all?) of us felt when hearing and seeing Prem Rawat speak for the first time. I almost had the screaming abdabs. (TD in her excellent journey's entry talks about this too.) Where every fibre of your being is screaming 'get me out of this sodding madhouse!' Fortunately there were premies at hand to reassure me. Maharaji, they told me, is like a mirror. If Maharaji sounds confused, muddled and incoherent, that merely reflects where you are at. Jeez - I believed them! They also told me that Maharaji's satsang is like applying a leather to a very muddy window. When you first start wiping the dirt just looks worse, but eventually the glass becomes clear and the clear light of heaven shines through etc

Which is, I suppose, one way of looking at it. The other way is to think of Pavlov's dogs. It doesn't matter how harsh the bell sounds once the aspirant starts salivating for Knowledge. They will quickly come to associate the message - no matter how offensive to their better judgement - with whatever mellow, twinkly sensations they experience in satsang. In addition to these good feelings in the present combined with the growing faith in Maharaji and the anticipation of a supreme experience to follow, there are other peripheral rewards. These include the sense of community and common purpose, or even the naughty pleasure of letting one's gaze dwell on the face a particularly attractive blissed-out sister (or brother - depending on your gender or preference) as they share satsang.

You soon come to enjoy both hearing the message and appreciating the messenger. (The messenger, of course, was always Maharaji - even when he was speaking through whichever brother or sister was in the satsang chair.) Bog-standard psychology, really. The mellow twinkliness has nothing to do with Maharaji, of course. Hypnotic subjects will report similar experiences - as will the devotees of many modern gurus.

There was a fascinating TV program recently featuring the followers of Ashokohara (the Japanese nerve-gas-in-the-subway cult). Their leader was in prison for mass murder, yet the devotees were still loyal. They still owed the guy their undying love and gratitude for what he had shown them inside. But I would be very surprised if exactly the same conditioning factors were not also present in the Ashokohara movement as in the DLM/EV trip, or that the thing inside they had been 'given' wasn't pretty much the same as Maharaji's 'gift'.

But what would happen if you tried to unravel the whole satsang package and tried to isolate whatever it takes to elicit 'that experience'? Find out which, if any, factors are necessary. Does there even need to be a 'giver', for example?

Back in 1986, Maharaji announced to his UK initiators that he was going to write a book. (I've been meaning to raise this on the forum for ages, but keep forgetting about it. Perhaps Mr Ex or Jean Michel remember something about this.) I heard it from a brand new initiator just back from his initiator initiation ceremony with the Lard himself. He was quite excited about the book thing. (What on earth would Maharaji have put in it? His poetry? Transcripts of his satsangs? Would he be able to write a grammatical sentence? What would he call it - 'My Life as a Superior Power in Person: Part II - The Wilderness Years..?' I guess we'll never know...)

But it made me think about the various components that make up the satsang/program/festival experience. If the experience lay merely in understanding Maharaji's words, then why go to the trouble of organising events of any kind? He could freely distribute his written teachings in books and pamphlets, or even via the net. Far smaller cost and potentially far greater readership. I remember seeing deaf premies at festivals. It was never suggested that not being able to hear Maharaji's words would in any way diminish their experience. Similarly blind premies: being able to focus upon the Divine Form was apparently also unnecessary. Being in the Master's physical presence from time to time used to be considered an unmissable component of one's devotions, but what with the ongoing shift towards mail-order watch-at-home videos and satellite feeds even the 'darshan factor' seems to be going down the golden pan.

So it seems each of the satsang components is unnecessary apart from the message itself. But then, weren't/aren't we always told that the experience of satsang doesn't lie in the words? (Just as well, really, since the most of the words have changed beyond recognition: from 'eternal liberation' to 'no afterlife' in less than ten years, for example.)

No, satsang was the experience behind the words, whatever that means; it is simply an experience of the heart. Yet, strangely, none of the meditation techniques involve focussing on the heart, do they?

Which appears to eliminate everything except devotion. A premie's addiction comes not from the techniques nor the message, but from from a carefully cultivated, idiotic love for a funny little vainglorious man with messianic delusions whose feet they would grovel before and kiss with no self-respect whatsoever. Whose garden they will weed and whose houses and aeroplanes they will build or refurbish without payment. Whose onscenely luxurious lifestyle they will finance with donations they can barely afford. And yet who consider themselves supremely blessed to be given such priceless opportunities for self-abasement.

I'm so fucking glad to be out of it. That's all I wanted to say really...
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 09:41:52 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Cultivating a devotee
Message:
Great post Nigel. Said so well. I do think devotion is the main point, no matter how it's packaged today. Service=devotion, satsang= singing his praises, meditation=connecting with the giver, ie Maharaji. All advertised to result in a feeling of bliss until you get up close to M and realize what a slimeball of a human being he is!
Then you re-evaluate the package, where did that bliss come from? Maybe he isn't the giver, maybe it was just conditioning. As the telletubbies would say: Uh-oh.
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 10:07:15 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Cultivating a devotee
Message:
When you think about it, this 'guru as mirror' thing was really destructive. We were conditioned not to trust our instincts, that survival oriented part of us that said 'run, run like the wind, fool!' We were conditioned to believe there was no such thing as objective reality. This really damaged our ability to judge, discriminate, everything became one big blob of mush in our thought-deprived brains! We became ethically deficient, which really robbed us of our human-ness if you think about it.

Now I know, in black and white terms, that M is a slimeball because objective reality tells me so. He lives an obscene lifestyle through fleecing people, and he is the leader of a cult that is destructive to people. I can say that now without any doubt.

But I remember when I hemmed and hawed when people asked about his lifestyle, and would parrot all the stuff about how he's not attached to any of it, and he just plays with all that stuff etc. I guess since we thought he was divine, that this was plausible to our muddled brains, but now I think 'my God, he's so transparent! It's so obvious! Only a brainwashed person would believe this rot!'
It's so obvious to anyone outside of the cult how much of a sleezeball he is. Which also reminds me of the fact that he has got to be very contemptuous of his premies that they fall for his shit!!!!!
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 21:11:43 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Cultivating a devotee
Message:
When you think about it, this 'guru as mirror' thing was really destructive. We were conditioned not to trust our instincts, that survival oriented part of us that said 'run, run like the wind, fool!' We were conditioned to believe there was no such thing as objective reality. This really damaged our ability to judge, discriminate, everything became one big blob of mush in our thought-deprived brains! We became ethically deficient, which really robbed us of our human-ness if you think about it.

Brilliantly put Helen! As both you and Nigel have said, that decisive moment in time where due to either a lapse in judgement/free-will or say a convincing argument by an influential premie we trusted, we abandoned our own initial gut-instinct beliefs and thoughts about Maharaji and thus crossed the border into full-on total acceptance cult-land. We could no longer trust or rely on our thoughts, as they were seens as 'doubts' and in premiedom, doubts are seen as 'thieves of the heart' as the Big M so succinctly likes to describe them as. And by getting ourselves into this kind of pathetic state, that's when we start to do and believe things that we normally would never have done, and certainly wouldn't do now.

I mean look at something like 'darshan'. If I had been told before I became a premie that premies kissed M's tootsies I would have run a mile (and M and premies would never talk about this at an introductory event!). As an ex-premie and with my own thoughts and viewpoints back on board, I'm equally repulsed by the fact that I kissed his tootsies, but as a premie and with a cult-mind, I felt it was an honour and yet another gift to do so.

Y'know, I see us doing things like darshan, not to mention all the other things that premies end up doing because of Maharaji (abandoning careers/neglecting family and children/propogating premie bullshit/fulfilling M's pedantic extravagant requests) as similar to say the Chinese during the Cultural Revolution doing things as absurd as pulling out all the flowers and grass because Mao Tse-tung told them to do so and justified it by saying that they were a symbol of the bourgeoisie and ruling class's lifestyle and ideas.

Actually recently I've read a bit more on Chairman Mao (one of my many hobbies, along with making sand-filled alarm clock souvenirs and dressing up in medieval gear and jousting with friends) and it's quite spooky, but there are so many parallels with Mao's style of manipulation and somebody like Maharaji's. Did you know that they referred to Mao Tse-Tung's Thought as a demon-exposing mirror as well? That by his sheer status, he had the power to reflect back the evils of the Chinese person who doubted him (used in some horrific torture scenarios). Not to mention the intelligentsia and free-thought seen as a problem, Mao elevating himself through propoganda and brutal oppression to being seen as a divine figure (OK, Maharaji might not have used physical violence, but he used the mind-fucking kind which IMHO is pretty bleeding bad!), not to mention things like the Mao badges, the kind of wacky reasoning and quotes in the Little Red Book and all the songs sung. Here's a sample of one of the Red Guard's songs which does have a resonance with devotional songs like Arti:

Piercingly staring at the clouds and the sky
Our longing hearts burning with anxiety
When Chairman Mao enters Tiananmen Square
Even mountains and rivers rejoice.
To have seen the Great Teacher Chairman Mao, is the fulfillment of our brightest wish. Ah! . . .
How many nights did we dream of you, ah
Burning tears of happiness keep running down . . .
Longed for day by day
Hoped for year by year, ah
Today we're at your side.
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 22:05:04 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Mao and Maharaji
Message:
That is chilling indeed, TD!!!
The two do seem to parallel one another VERY well. Thanks for that post.
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 10:16:13 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Cultivating a devotee
Message:
Thank you. Your post is a keeper!
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 01:48:25 (EDT)
From: Fred
Email: None
To: Redbird & all
Subject: Flying Carpet Syndrome
Message:
What worried and confused me was the haphazardness of it all. Some premies seem to land on their feet managing to do enough 'service' to keep their minds from going crazy while the majority of premies, lost to the world, are clinging on for dear life to the lotus feet on the magic carpet flying to nowhere - except maybe the bank.

Fred
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 11:52:45 (EDT)
From: Sid Nigh
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Cultivating a devotee
Message:
No Nigel, its actually an expierience.But if you dont have it,well ,how would you know?Frustrating eh Nigel?
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 12:29:51 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: catweasel in drag
Subject: So speaks a CULTivated mind
Message:
No Nigel, its actually an expierience.But if you dont have it,well ,how would you know?Frustrating eh Nigel?

Did you read my post, or simply not understand it?
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 12:35:41 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: So speaks a CULTivated mind
Message:
Oh you Brits have such a dry wit! How you doing, Nigel?
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 14:01:03 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Marianne
Subject: So speaks a CULTivated mind
Message:
Things are just fine and dandy this side of the ocean, ma'am. Nice to see you around the forum again, Marianne. You take care now (as I believe is the common parlance in the colonies).
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 21:02:07 (EDT)
From: Sid Nigh
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: So speaks a CULTivated mind
Message:
It was just anoverload of postulating nonsense.You completely miss it.
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 21:33:17 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Sid Nigh
Subject: Well spotted, sir...
Message:
Cripes, we posers don't stand a chance with hawkeyes like you about...
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 14:49:56 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sid Nigh
Subject: Excellent! (Nigel, not Sid)
Message:
No Nigel, its actually an expierience.But if you dont have it,well ,how would you know?Frustrating eh Nigel?

Sid,

You know, don't you, that the english language won't really let you do what you're doing? That is, trying to make the word 'experience' serve as an anti-thought shield. It doesn't work, that is, outside the canopy of the cult circus tent. That's just one reason why no premie can rationally discuss Maharaji.

Really well put, by the way, Nigel. Thanks.
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 16:28:35 (EDT)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Cultivating a devotee
Message:
Nigel me too . I think all that !

The fact that no techniques relate to the heart is near the core of it.
My logic and experience shows that therefore the techniques drain the subtle capacities of the heart in time, leaving it with a capacity for limited simulted devotion.
But alas, I wander into the vague world of intutive science.
( so dont quote me on that one)
Liked your post
cp
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 01:04:59 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Thanks Nigel
Message:
Hi Nigel,

Who are the instructors in the U.K. these days?

Regards,

Liz
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 17:29:50 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Cultivating a devotee
Message:
Dear Nigel,
Just wanted you to know I read this and found it very good. I don't have time to read the whole thread unfourtunately but I did want to tell you I appreciated the thought and time it took to write and I found it a good read. I do just want to say that somehow I missed or never heard the message that the meditaion really came from/through M. I am eternally grateful for not paying attention or forgetting it though.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 01, 1999 at 21:19:15 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: The Simplicity of Empty Minds
Message:
MJ's glorifies the simplicity of the people in Nepal, Mauritius, India, and Africa. He doesn't tell them how great they are when he's there, but he tells us.

The message to PWKs is 'be more simple and come empty.' Decades ago, I told Elliot Brye that it was difficult to think and function properly while trying to remember technique #3 (holy name). She said that K made her smarter (I wonder if she still thinks that. I haven't seen her in years).

It was strange--that exercise to constantly erase yourself--but I kept at it. 'Let Maharaji paint your picture. dah dah dah ... beautiful dah dah dah ... experience infinity dah dah dah ... that beauty dah dah dah ... MJ's world dah dah dah See through the master's eyes. dah dah dah Maybe you aren't ready for ABC. dah dah dah You don't know what this life is for!' SIZE=6 COLOR=PURPLE Sure I do, MJ--buying Vision products on my MasterCard, Visa, and AmEx cards.
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Date: Tues, Jun 01, 1999 at 09:05:16 (EDT)
From: RT
Email: omm
To: Nigel
Subject: I prefer Yogurt Culture
Message:
N, excellant post! Am sending to EV and Visions and others.

RT
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 23:08:01 (EDT)
From: fabfeb
Email: fabfeb@airmail.net
To: Everyone
Subject: children of premies
Message:
My daughter's father is a premie and I am very concerned about her welfare. We have been divorced for a year and he took her to her first program recently during a weekend of visitation. She is only six years old and has a strong relationship with each parent. I would like to know if anyone can tell me the effects of exposure to this cult on children. I am desperate for information, so that I can better proceed in the struggle to protect my child from involvement. Any non-premie or ex-premie parents, please respond!
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 23:11:50 (EDT)
From: fabfeb
Email: fabfeb@airmail.net
To: Everyone
Subject: children of premies (addendum)
Message:
Please respond by e-mail.
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 23:24:59 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: fabfeb
Subject: children of premies
Message:
No one is immune to the effects of brainwashing. Your daughter would probably be suceptible to the group high. Many young children get swept up by their parents. I met a young boy about 8 or 9 who had been given K. The boy's mother was totally addicted to following MJ around the world (a real gopi for sure).

MJ claims he makes people wait until they are 18, but he makes exceptions. The child was doing service with the rest of us at about 23:30. This is hardly a normal life for such a young person.

Ask your husband not to expose your daughter to this belief system. I would suggest that you get an injunction to protect her, if he doesnt wish to comply. The adult children of premies, whom I know, view MJ as a cult leader. They are embarrassed by their parents' involvement. Luckily, by 1982, MJ decided it would be better to ban children from all cult activities, so they were not exposed to much. As of about six years ago, in Amaroo, he started brainwashing children again (get 'em while they're young).
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 00:00:26 (EDT)
From: cp
Email: None
To: mom
Subject: children of premies
Message:
If you hve to agree on the type of schooling she goes to and what religion if any she is raised in as part of a visitation arrangement, then it follows that religious or cult events constitute religious instruction. The court must see this thing as a cult I hope.
It seems that you should be able to block him from allowing her to watch videos at home too.
I know relatives who think they are somehow planting a seed of devotion if they put a video on while the nephew is visiting.
They say the young ones LIKE it. Thats their justification.
They also like to eat at KFC.
There may be studies you can cite that illustrate the effects of cult exposure on children in order to support your arguement.
If you check the archives there was quite a few references in the last few months.
One of the others on the forum may have a grip on all that.
Good Luck
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 04:12:51 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: Naughty Girl
To: Gail
Subject: children of premies
Message:
Dont tell exaggerated porky Pies Gail,it will come back to haunt you no matter what your motivation.
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 01:44:31 (EDT)
From: Red Bird
Email: None
To: fabfeb
Subject: children of premies
Message:
Hello fabfeb,

Is your daughter's father current on his child support payments? If he is then he probably gets to choose where he can take her on weekends.

Be cautious and don't hesitate to go back to court if it appears the cult is affecting the child in a negative manner.

RR
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 04:07:34 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: No emotive Nonsense
To: fabfeb
Subject: childrenof PeoplewithKnowledge
Message:
It is not a cult.Children under the age of 8 years are generally not admitted to events,either local video events or major events with a speaker .This is contrary to what you may read here.There is a responsible organization with normal protocols you would find if you attend any similar event aimed at Adult attendees.This will bring howls of derision from those self styled experts who post here .It is nethertheless fact.
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 07:00:18 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Catweasel
Subject: Maharaji's eloquent spokesman.
Message:
Over and over you accuse the ex-premies of lying. But when challenged you can't identify a single lie, can you?

When asked to clarify anything at all - such as your claim that Maharaji has admitted many mistakes - your only recourse is to call the challenger a 'moron' or 'boring'.

And you've nothing to say but he same thing over and over again:

'You guys is just losers .You coulda quit any time. Get a life ,low IQ's da lot of you. You'r times coming soon... watch out... im wasting my cat time talking to you guys .It isnt a cult. You're website is a cult.I know the truth.I don't go to videos. I don't believe the rubbish .I don't give money I just meditate when I want to and the experience is reel. You guys is just losers .You coulda quit any time. Get a life ,low IQ's da lot of you. You'r times coming soon... watch out... im wasting my cat time talking to you guys .It isnt a cult. You're website is a cult.I know the truth.I don't go to videos. I don't believe the rubbish .I don't give money I just meditate when I want to and the experience is reel. You guys is just losers .You coulda quit any time. Get a life ,low IQ's da lot of you. You'r times coming soon... watch out... im wasting my cat time talking to you guys .It isnt a cult. You're website is a cult.I know the truth.I don't go to videos. I don't believe the rubbish .I don't give money I just meditate when I want to and the experience is reel. You guys is just losers .You coulda quit any time. Get a life ,low IQ's da lot of you. You'r times coming soon... watch out... im wasting my cat time talking to you guys .It isnt a cult. You're website is a cult.I know the truth.I don't go to videos. I don't believe the rubbish .I don't give money I just meditate when I want to and the experience is reel. You guys is just losers .You coulda quit any time. Get a life ,low IQ's da lot of you. You'r times coming soon... watch out... im wasting my cat time talking to you guys .It isnt a cult. You're website is a cult.I know the truth.I don't go to videos. I don't believe the rubbish .I don't give money I just meditate when I want to and the experience is reel....'

Maybe you are not the only glue-sniffing premie shit-stirrer to grace these pages, Cat, but you are the most ridiculous.
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 08:23:12 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: no,just me stating the facts.
Message:
Fact is fact.Nothing more to be said.
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 11:21:52 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Catweasel
Subject: And the fact that you are...
Message:
...still a sad toe-kisser is your problem, not mine. But couldn't you practise your devotions elsewhere, please?
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 11:54:24 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Blame Jim
Message:
No
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 09:13:20 (EDT)
From: Red Bird
Email: None
To: Fabfeb
Subject: childrenof PeoplewithKnowledge
Message:
Hi Fabfeb

There's your answer fabfeb. Your daughter has to be at least 9.

Still if dad skips out on child support it's a lot easier to collect inter-state wise these days.

RR
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 09:23:50 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: childrenof PeoplewithKnowledge
Message:
Even if 'protocols' are followed, the premie influence is still around this child. This parent is concerned about it, because she no longer thinks that that is a good thing for people.
I would be concerned too, I would not want premie adults giving my kid satsang; kids are vulnerable at different phases of their lives and the promises made about M and knowledge are too good to be true.
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 09:35:35 (EDT)
From: Red Bird
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: childrenof PeoplewithKnowledge
Message:
Helen,

I completely agree with you concerning the influences. However, the law is set up in most states that non-custodial parents have the right to see their children and interact with them as they see fit. The only control a custodial parent would have is if the father/mother was part of the non-profit cult and sliding out of child support payments using non profit status as an excuse for non payment.

Hopefully, M or those around him have dealt with the pedophile problem. This is probably the most dangerous situation to a young girl.

Other than that, I'm sure the child would be bored and through the 'wisdom' of their eyes see m as a man that sells cups with birds on them. I can't imagine a teenager hanging around. Can you? I think they'd do a 'Wadi Sue' number and exit stage left.

RR
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 09:54:38 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Red Bird
Subject: childrenof PeoplewithKnowledge
Message:
It depends on how vulnerable the child/teenager is. If they are feeling desperate, they might want the promised high of knowledge and M. It also depends upon how much the child wants to please the premie parent. If the premie parent is the non-custodial parent, the child may want to get more involved with knowledge as a way to connect with that parent. Children of divorce often want to go live with the non-custodial parent when they hit their teens because thay simply want more time with that parent and want to connect.

If the child has a good sense of self and trusts his or her own instincts, has goals and has a good head on his/her shoulders about how goals are achieved (ie. through hard work, not magic), and can separate emotion from logical thought, I would say the child will be able to resist the conditioning and see it for what it is.

I would urge premie/ex-premie divorced parents not to let the M issue become a battleground (unless the child is in serious danger)! It gives it too much power and after all, the M trip is all about POWER, robbing people's sense of personal power. This is my professional opinion!
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 01:30:47 (EDT)
From: Fred
Email: None
To: Red Bird
Subject: Wadi Sue
Message:
Dear Redbird,

Wadi Sue didn't exit stage left other than when she sang 'Get up and Dance' to her ol' dad.

She has recently put together a video advertising the glories of Visions International with lots of 'oohs' & 'arrs' from premies. A very mediocre sales-pitch video that reminded me of Amway.

Fred
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 08:42:02 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Fred
Subject: Wadi Sue works for Visions
Message:
According to Chris Price, Premlata and Daya work at visions. They help to edit the videos. Chris said this to me when I complained that the videos from the last few years might be using subliminal or hypnotic techniques.
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 20:01:27 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Ah, Gail, my favourite hobby
Message:
horse!

I think there is a strong possibility they are using high tech subliminal and hypnotic material in their videos, but I can't say for sure. It's just a guess. It would be interesting to have some videos examined by experts.
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 08:01:23 (EDT)
From: I think you have made
Email: None
To: fabfeb
Subject: a mistake with your e-mail
Message:
address, F. I have tried to write you three times to no avail.
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 21:56:46 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Why I love being an ex
Message:
The best thing is the humour:

Dear Maharaji

We thank you for the beautiful gift that it has been to be able to participate in the preparations for Mar del Plata

Our opportunity to contribute to this wonderful event was to make the stage curtains. And we are very, very thankful for this chance to renew this feeling of being closer to you. We need to see you and fill our hearts with love.

Hasmad,
Lilia,
Rogerio,
Marilei,
Carlos Conceição,
Fernando Bermudez,
Neuza,
Marli,
Waldir,
Cida,
Margaret e Pepa


(from ELK, 'Expressions')
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 22:38:02 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Filled with sadness
Message:
Jim: I had a completely different reaction to the post from the premies. I have never read or posted on any of the premie sites. I left years and years ago and have no desire to read satsang or to banter with premies. If others choose to do so, it's a free world, mostly. Reading this post reminded me of the feeling of unrequited love I felt for GMJ when I lived in the ashram or as an active community premie. I put everything into DLM and Maharaj Ji. What I got in return came from premie friends, not from M. M. did not know and did not care what little contributions (like curtains) I made to his endeavor. These people do have something valuable to give, but sadly do not realize that the recipient could care less. Where's those monthly donations from your checking account, by the way, curtain makers?
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 20:21:47 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Tragicomic?
Message:
Marianne,

I hear you loud and clear. You have to admit, though, that this cult, like all of them, is as funny as it's weird as it's scary as it's sad. They're all like that, I think.
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 21:57:46 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Pathetic
Message:
Yes, tragicomic and also pathetic. The idea that people are still doing service to this guy when he's such a charlatan is very disturbing. It's all take, take, take. If only they knew the history.... He doesn't care about the curtains. He just wants good ol' US $$$$$$.

It reminds me of when I came into some money after my father died. I had left the ashram but was a very devoted community premie. Somehow, Arthur Brigham, who was then in LA, got word that I had come into some money. It wasn't a vast amount, but it was my college money, probably the most important thing my parents ever wanted to give me. He called me up and wanted me to donate it to M. I told him I wanted to think about it for a couple of days. 'Why?????' he asked incredulously. Then I asked if I could bring the money to M if I decided to give it. 'Why would you want to do that?' Arthur demanded. Of course, I wrongly figured that M might be interested in meeting me briefly, if only to say THANK YOU to a premie who was giving up a sizable chunk of money for her Lord's desires. Well, Arthur told me that would never be possible, and who was I anyway to want to impose myself on M. Reason, no MIND, prevailed, and I kept the cash. And it helped pay to educate me to become a lawyer who can taunt M on the internet!! The story had a happy ending. I wish the folks in Argentina could have such a happy ending.
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 00:06:42 (EDT)
From: Red Bird
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Pathetic
Message:
Hi Marianne,

I for one am grateful your Irish Sensibility kicked in and you kept the money;-)

Rawat and his minions had a talent for sniffing out inheritances and trust funds. Initiator Rosie L. forked some of hers over. Wonder if the 'Instructorship' was a reward? M also collected paper weights back then too.

Odd the things that come back to us.

Luv ya,
RB
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 01:38:17 (EDT)
From: Fred
Email: None
To: Red Bird
Subject: Rosie L
Message:
Is Rosie L from the U.K. Is she still an Instructor?

I knew quite a few people who gave their inheritanced to m. One gets to help back stage and the other who gave a house or two wonders around the U.K. on drugs looking very lost by all accounts.

Fred
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Date: Tues, Jun 01, 1999 at 21:50:34 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Red Bird
Subject: Winston Churchill's Ashtray
Message:
Someone sent it to MJ. He said that he keeps it in his safe. I guess it's too valuable to butt his cigarettes in.
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Date: Mon, May 31, 1999 at 01:34:34 (EDT)
From: spartakus
Email: na
To: Marianne
Subject: money
Message:
during a program in rome, 1982 or1983. I hade the 'honor' to do service, in the money room .in the palaccio de la sport rome. in the end of the program, we hade to transport the total amount,( between 1 to 1 and ahalf milion us $) that was taken in maney differnt currencys. the money was given to abunch of german premies, staying in afancy resort, on the hills ssrrounding rome by the way, the monney was packed into empty shoe boxes, stuffed in huge tote bag, as far as i know the money was never deposited . this story have much more juicy details not for cyber space!!!!
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 23:57:16 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why I love being an ex
Message:
Eeesshhh,

This is right up there with Premlata's custom Barbie Doll Outfits 'divine service'.

Mare
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 21:28:39 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Our favorite scandals
Message:
I see from reports below that premies are getting together to watch videos and then logging on to this site sometimes. I figured that this topic would get someone's attention. Tell me your favorite DLM (Divine Light Mission for those of you who only know Maharaji's organization as Elan Vital) scandal.

While this incident has been discussed many times here, I'm going to repeat it for the neophytes. Please add your own. In the summer of 1973, all the premies were abuzz with preparations for Millenium '73 (yes, way back in 1973 we were talking about the Millenium). It was the celebration of Hans Jayanti in November that was held at the Houston Astrodome. By the way, the Astrodome was supposed to take off with all of us in it, according to premie lore at the time. I am sorry to say I believed it. Maharaji's family, especially his brother Bal Bhgwan Ji put out information like that. But, I digress....

Guru Maharaj Ji was touring the country to strike up publicity for the event and the premies were busy selling off family heirlooms (which we now deeply regret, as did our parents who usually did not know til the loss of the important item was discovered) in order to pay for this magnificent event. I lived in Kalamazoo, Michigan at the time. The premies managed to convince the Mayor of Detroit to give Maharaj Ji the key to the city. I went to see Maharaj Ji receive the key, along with about 30 other premies. It was a public event. There were 3 people sitting right in the front row with a huge box of flowers that they were holding. No one knew them, but they told all the premies who were sitting around them that they wanted to give the flowers to Maharaj Ji. 'How nice,' we all said. Maharaj Ji came into the room to receive the key. As he walked up to the Mayor, the flower guy jumped up and smacked Maharaj Ji right in the face with a pie. Pie guy and pals ran out in the confusion that followed. My friends who were the WPC (the misnamed World Peace Corps --- in other words, security) were horrified because they allowed M. to get pied. They thought lightning was going to strike them or something.

A few days later, Mahatma Fakiranand and a premie from the Detroit ashram found the pie guy --- a journalist for an underground Detroit paper, of whom the Detroit police were none too fond. Fakiranand got him to meet with the 2 of them on the pretext that he, Fakiranand was going to give up the meditation techniques because he had had a falling out with M. They told pie guy, 'Here's the light,' and smashed his head with a hammer. Pie guy was seriously injured, but did not die. Fakiranand was secreted out of Detroit and the US by premies. The Detroit police did not look too hard for anyone to arrest because they did not like pie guy or his radical hippie newspaper which exposed police corruption.

And I wondered, 'What did hitting someone in the head with a hammer have to do with inner peace?'
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 21:35:20 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Maharaji directed traffic
Message:
Marianne,

As I mentioned before here, Mike Donner, former president of DLM and Maharaji's one-time close friend, told me last summer that Maharaji personally directed him to take Fakiranand from Detroit to Chicago and to make arrangements to fly him out of the country rather than face the music.
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 21:39:22 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Important fact
Message:
Jim: Thanks for adding that critical piece of information.
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 06:34:00 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Marianne
Subject: And less we forget...
Message:
The pie-man, Pat Haley (or Halley) had his skull broken. He never fully recovered and died a year or two later.
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 02:36:32 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Pat Halley is alive, I think
Message:
My informants tell me that Pat Halley is still alive.

This link indicates that Pat Halley contributed to the book, Voices from the Underground: V1-Insider Histories of the Vietnam Era Underground Press published in 1993. My understanding is that as a result of Fakiranand's battery Mr. Halley has a metal plate in his head. Lot's of Peace, Love, and Understanding!

From the Table of Contents is the following:
Looking for Utopia Page 37
by Patrick Halley

In August of 1973, Guru Maharaj Ji, the 15-year old 'perfect master, arrived in Detroit to inaugurate his 'Divine Light Mission'--a religious cult started in India--and to receive the key to the city. The local press hailed him as a messenger of peace and brotherhood. His disciples hailed him as the new 'God.' Only Detroit's Fifth Estate concluded that he was a hustler and a fraud. In this appendix to Bob Hippler's history of the Fifth Estate, Patrick Halley tells, for the first time, how he infiltrated the 'Divine Light Mission' and pied the perfect master from 15 feet, and about the steel plate he wears in his head as a reminder.
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 10:07:35 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Think again Drek, ole pal
Message:
My informants tell me that Pat Halley died three or four years ago of natural causes.
And I believe my informants are better than yours.
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 13:00:52 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: Are you ever going to speak
Message:
to me again? I'd be willing to give you my first born in exchange for a conversation (just kidding, I wouldn't do that to you).

Is it another woman?
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 14:48:45 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: Think again Drek, ole pal
Message:
Ok, that might be true. I merely showed that he might have been alive circa 1993 and did not die a year or two after the attack. I've seen several versions about Pat Halley and I'm just interested in presenting the facts as best as I can. One problem with the web is that there is too much unsubtantiated information flying around.

Maybe your informants are better than mine? Where did you hear that, Nim?
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 17:47:12 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Think again Drek, ole pal
Message:
Actually I have to make a small correction.
Pat Halley died circa 1994-95, not of natural causes as I mentioned before, but in a car accident.
This was told to me by Ann Johnston sometime during 1996.
Oh, and Ann made a point of emphasizing that the car accident was not related in anyway to his 'divinely' incurred head injury.
Alright so she didn't use the word 'divinely'...I'm just throwing it in...but you can bet that's what she thinks.
Even more interesting, ANN was the house mother at the Detroit ashram to where MJ returned immediately after being 'pied' by Pat Halley.
Now have I got a story for you ...
but first a shower, dinner and I'll get back to you.
Later Rog.
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 18:46:57 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: Think again Drek, ole pal
Message:
Nim: Then Ann knew me, at least vaguely, and I knew her. What ashram did she live in in Detroit?
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 21:34:29 (EDT)
From: Fred
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: Think again Drek, ole pal
Message:
Hurry up Nim, Old Boy,

Shower, Dine, we wait with baited breath to hear your scandalous tale.

Best Regards,

Fred
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 22:07:37 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Fred
Subject: Nim, we wait with baited breat
Message:
Nim,

Well, that pretty much clears up the Pat Halley story. Sounds good to me.

Ok, I need a good story. Something to look forward to.

Thanks!
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 23:22:18 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Wait no more guys!
Message:
Alright.
As told to me by Ann Johnston.
That day when MJ was pied by Pat Halley, there was a press conference scheduled at the ashram following the reception where he was going to receive his civic award or key to the city.
Ann had been busy preparing these hand made signs that said 'press' on them to be placed on the back of the chairs for the media people and one 'special' sign for MJ's chair that of course said 'Guru Maharaj Ji ' on it.
Now the people in the ashram who had been waiting
for MJ to return from the reception had heard about him being pied, even before he returned home.
According to Ann, Fakiranand upon hearing the news 'cowered in a corner of the room like a little boy...and began trembling.'
Then MJ returned. According to Ann he was totally enraged. He stormed into the ashram and upon noticing the signs Ann had made for the chairs saying 'press', he proceeded to rip them all off, and shouted out 'No more Media!'
MJ then noticed Fakiranand cowering in the corner of the room, and according to Ann, he spoke the following words to him:
'I don't want you to hurt this man'
End of story. You guys of course know the rest.
But the thing I want to share with you is this.
When Ann told me this story(in 1996) I had this 'gut' feeling that there was something wrong with it. That she wasn't telling the truth, and moreover she may be hiding some dark, long held secret.
I couldn't figure it out. What was wrong with Ann's goddamn story?!
And then one day when I was driving in the car, it came to me.
Here's Mj returning after being pied. The little 15 year old pisher is in a rage, so much so that he storms into the Ashram, rips off signs, shouts out 'no more media'...and then calmly, in English, says to Fakiranand 'I don't want you to hurt this man.'
Two things.
In the early days I have great difficulty remembering MJ speak to the mahatmas in English. He seemed to always speak to them in Hindi.
Secondly, for those of you who speak a second language, and have the kind of grip on it that MJ had with his English then...it is extremely difficult to slip into your second language when you're that angry, but not that fluent.
I just have a hard time believing Ann's story.
Somehow I envisage M in that moment, shouting out something in Hindi, blaming the whole pie incident on his mahatmas who failed to protect him or something like that...and thereby setting Fakiranand off.
To this day, and especially after hearing Ann's defence of Mj, I believe that he not only directed traffic after the fact, but that in his irresponsible little pisher ways, he incited Fakiranand to commit the crime.
And thats the story guys.
I hope I didn't disappoint.
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 23:45:38 (EDT)
From: Fred
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: Great Story!
Message:
Great story! Anne Johnson - What is this lady's problem - do you know? Any ideas?
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Date: Mon, May 31, 1999 at 02:23:24 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: Great! ***Best***
Message:
Wow! Gotta really wonder what it would have been like to have been at the ashram when Maharaji arrived. If only we could tap the akachic (sp) record and get that on video tape.

Yes, Maharaji's english was pretty bad at the time and your guess at slipping into Hindi is quite viable.

Lot's of forgiveness in Maharaji's world.
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 06:28:17 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Favorite?
Message:
Mine, and obviously quite some others is the story of that Indian person who's been run over by one of the hired Indian buses taking premies from Delhi (Punjabi Bagh) to Prem Nagar.

That happened in October/November 1972. None of the buses stopped, and the accident was totally ignored! Except for those sitting in the bus. They still remember, believe me.
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Date: Mon, May 31, 1999 at 00:09:34 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Mary
Subject: Honeymoon dillie scandal
Message:
Any luck with the honeymooner archives?

Don't mean to rush you but I'm excited.

Liz
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Date: Mon, May 31, 1999 at 11:01:00 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Honeymoon dillie scandal
Message:
Hey Liz,

No luck on the honeymoon archive search... yet. I'm up to my neck in a fresh COMMEX & AMNEX door that opened.

This Entity Relationship Diagram would need a rain forest of paper to set forth and explain.

Luv,
Mary
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 21:23:53 (EDT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: HST and Leary. OT? not so fast
Message:
Ms. K for you do I face my fears :
I hope this helps you and Biff or Bill or whoever.
====================
From Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
A SAVAGE JOURNEY TO THE HEART OF THE AMERICAN DREAM
Copyright 1971 bt Hunter S Thompson - p. 178:

...That was the fatal flaw in Tim Leary's trip.
He crashed around America selling 'conciousness
expansion' without giving a thought to the grim meat-hook
realities that were lying in wait for all the people who took
him seriously. After West Point and the Priesthood, LSD must
have seemed entirely logical to him
....but there is not much satisfaction in knowing that he
blew it very badly for himself, because he took too many others down with him. Not that they didn't deserve it: No doubt they
all Got What Was Coming To Them. All those pathetically eager
acid freaks who thought they could buy Peace and Understanding for three bucks a hit. But their loss and failure is ours, too.
What Leary took down with him was the central illusion of a whole
life-style that he helped to create... a generation of
permanent cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the
essential old-mystic fallacy of the Acid Culture: the
desperate assumption that somebody - or at least some force
- is tending that Light at the end of the tunnel

=====end quote====

sorry bolding is mine italics his, couldn't resist
If you need more lets email, don't wantto push my luck.
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 21:44:48 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: Not OT to me
Message:
Hey Selene! Great quote. HST has always had a way of putting things in perspective, hasn't he? Didn't he ever riff on GMJ during the early '70's, both their salad days?
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 21:55:52 (EDT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Not OT to me
Message:
actually spent some tme in Aspen during those days.
Dont' remember him 'riffing' on M but he was drunk a lot and said
a LOT. And it made sense to me. Now is that scary? course i
was drunk too.
so there ya go

Thanks Marianne
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Date: Mon, May 31, 1999 at 03:20:05 (EDT)
From: x-0-x
Email: no
To: selene
Subject: Not OT to me
Message:
He was not into M, he did give, (bring in person to the prison on a visit), to his daughter who was in prison a book about a Guru Maharaj Ji, not necessarily the, 'M, (here)', I was their, she asked me if I believed in a, Guru Maharaj Ji or words to that effect, to make a long story short I said, no. It was a most profound moment!

I think T.L. has contributed very much in the big picture, to moving We The People ahead.

Much more than most.

I am a 1st./new/x, here, just happened to scan, see this by chance, do not mean to be a ------ I am not sure what I mean.
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Date: Mon, May 31, 1999 at 13:45:44 (EDT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: x-0-x
Subject: Not OT to me
Message:
well I can't reassure you since I don't know whata a ---- is
:) just kidding, you are not being that. whatever it is
Welcome. Is the the you meant Hunter or Leary, the one who gave the book, etc. I am assuming Leary.
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Date: Tues, Jun 01, 1999 at 04:11:22 (EDT)
From: x-0-x
Email: no thank you
To: selene
Subject: Not OT to me
Message:
Timothy Leary gave that book to his daughter in prison, who less then a year later, was reported to have committed suicide in her jail cell.

Tim, kept an open mind, most of the time, right up to the night he died.

He did not say anything in regard to my answer to his daughters question, and he could have since we were about shoulder to shoulder, looking through the glass and talking to his daughter on the other side in Prison.
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 02:01:26 (EDT)
From: Fred
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Susie Bai
Message:
Hi Marianne,

Does anyone know what happened to Susie Bai?

Fred
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 17:07:38 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Fred
Subject: Susie Bai
Message:
Hi Fred. Susie Bai --- the first western Mahatma. I liked her. It was the only nod to women having authority in the whole thing. I have no idea. Maybe others do. You are new. When were you involved and where, if you want to tell. Welcome to the Forum, and thanks for your contributions!
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 21:32:15 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Fred
Subject: Susie Bai
Message:
Hi Fred -
I enquired about Susie Bai on here once, and someone said that she was happily living in LA & not involved with M anymore.

By the way, I always really liked Susie Bai, and was glad to hear that she was doing well. She lived in the DC ashram before and after I received knowledge (late Fall '72) and she was very kind to me.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 00:54:24 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: selene
Subject: Not OT to me either
Message:
Thanks very much, Selene. I don't think it's OT at all - it pretty much sums up the whole reason I got into Maharaji in the first place. Especially:
the essential old-mystic fallacy of the Acid Culture: the desperate assumption that somebody - or at least some force - is tending that light at the end of the tunnel.

What can I say except 'sheesh'!

Love,
Katie

P.S. BTW, it's Biff (a.k.a. bftb).
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 01:13:58 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Not OT to me either
Message:
Thankyou Katie. I read that book in the early 80's
Had this sweet 24 year old male 'friend', we were helping me thru divorce wars - oh well another story for later;

but he LOVED HST. And he gave me every book and they were such a welcome, intelligent but insane welcome, from the premie not happenings.

And yet so tied into it all. ( I still think mild psycho active drugs in the right setting would be nice but I can't find that. )

selene - moved to the west to find Jim Morrison
found a computing carreer - ///// oh well
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 01:47:08 (EDT)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Not OT to me either
Message:
This quote comes very close to NDE. Are you saying that you do or dont believe that these experiences are for real?
It seems that the light at the end of the tunnel is a common experience for alot of people who have NDE. And they come from all walks of life and none are into cults or even meditaion. Some are bonafide atheists but do acknowledge that there is a presence in the light or the light has a consciousness to it.
Thats what M has tried to monopolize on, bu putting his label on it.
And one of his main crimes in my opinoin.
Anybody experience this tunnel and light while close to death?
cp
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 08:46:06 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: cp
Subject: NDEs
Message:
A lot of scientists believe that NDEs are brain activity, the brain comforting the self, so to speak, at the time of death. But it does seem like a lot of folks have these experiences, and a lot of folks leave their bodies and look down at what's going on and are able to report verbatim what was said at the scene of their accident, in the hospital, etc.

I sort of had a NDE when I almost hemorraged to death, I sure had some kind of experience. I woke up sobbing and holding the nurses' hand and saying 'I love the lord so much' . It wasn't as is I had a beautific look on my face, I was freaked and crying. Of course it could have been a trauma reaction since my vitals went way down, and I my brain was probably freaked. SO it wasn't a real NDE probably was just a trauma reaction. Bobby had an NDE I think. ANyone else?

I think the HST quote does really sum up where we were at in the 70s--we believed with childlike simplicity that someone was tending that light and that someone would be at the end of that light tunnel when we died. Hell, I didn't just believe this, I KNEW it to be true, and centered my whole life around it. I still hope that there is a creator who watches over us, I do hope that.

My conception of God has changed though as I became more rational after leaving M. It's pretty funny that drugs and God were a total package back then. God = constantly being high. This was a lie that our whole generation got caught up in but it was probably inevitible. I know there are a lot of premies who put in a lot of time mediating and probably never took a drug in their lives, who weren't in it for instant gratification, but I sure was.
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 14:12:28 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: NDEs
Message:
Yeah I had an NDE back in 1969 followed by intense visionary experiences. I have stories about it on my site. Here's a a couple of links - a shorter version and a more extended autobiographical version.

My Near-Death and Spiritual Visions

A Spiritual Emergence Journey

I've got a lot of updating to do on my story. The events of the past several years, including my recent bout with cancer that brought me pretty close to death, have had strong influences on my life story.

My NDE and Visions are groundwork for a very personal spirituality. I continue to get a great deal of meaning and purpose out of the perceptual shifts I've experienced.

I've also read a considerable amount of HST. I've enjoyed quite a bit of the reading and tend to agree with some of his politics but not his cosmology. Well, actually that bit about the being at the end of the tunnel is really appropos. It's real for me.
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 17:02:52 (EDT)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: NDEs
Message:
Bobby
It is real for me too. My life is not the same after the experience. Twice. And it had nothing to do with M.
There is no way I would ever label it as my brain making me feel good.
Looking forward to the update
cp
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 19:20:57 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: responses to this quote
Subject: NDEs yes all I agreee
Message:
That is it really. HST and what he was saying
And NDE's don't have a lot to do with each other perhaps.
I have had 2 almost deaths one from a drug overdose and one during a miscarriage that went REAL bad - I was alone, etc.

During both I had the light / rushing tunnel thing. I don't
feel qualified to define those experiences. I did see and feel the same things maybe twice in all the time Idid whatever technique it is now.
HST was talking about something else, I think tho I don't know that for sure either. I think he just meant a generation of people were created who thought they could buy enlightenment, or get an expressway to it, or both.
And that attitude was disasterous.
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 22:10:18 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: Selene
Subject: I agree with Selene
Message:
Hi Selene - you wrote:
I think he just meant a generation of people were created who thought they could buy enlightenment, or get an expressway to it, or both. And that attitude was disastrous.

I agree completely. The most destructive part for me is that I both believed that 'someone' was tending the light at the end of the tunnel, and that I KNEW who that person was. I still believe in the light at the end of the tunnel, but I'm not making any more assumptions about it until I get there.
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 02:09:14 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Not OT to me either
Message:
I agree.

Turn on... Tune in... Drop out...

relax and float downstream..

this is not dying...

WAKE UP AND SMELL THE DAISIES!

Liz
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 18:13:55 (EDT)
From: Are you Co-dependant
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: on Maharaji-Take the Test
Message:
WHAT IS CODEPENDENCY?
Author Unknown

My good feelings about who I am stem from being liked by you.

My good feelings about who I am stem from receiving approval from you.

Your struggles affect MY serenity. MY mental attention focuses on solving YOUR problems or relieving YOUR pain.

My mental attention is focused on PLEASING YOU.

My mental attention is focused on PROTECTING YOU.

My own hobbies and interests are put aside. My time is spent sharing YOUR interests and hobbies.

YOUR clothing and personal appearance is dictated by my desires as I feel that YOU ARE A REFLECTION OF ME.

YOUR behavior is dictated by my desires as I feel that YOU ARE A REFLECTION OF ME.

I AM NOT AWARE OF HOW I FEEL. I am aware of how YOU feel. I am not aware of what I want. I ask what YOU want. IF I AM NOT AWARE I ASSUME.

The dreams that I have for MY future are linked to YOU.

My fear of rejection determines what I say or do.

My fear of YOUR anger determines what I say or do.

I use GIVING as a way of feeling safe in our relationship.

My social circle diminishes as I involve myself with YOU.

I put MY values aside in order to connect with YOU.

I value YOUR opinion and way of doing things MORE THAN MY OWN.

The quality of my life is in relation to the quality of yours.

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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 17:40:37 (EDT)
From: Rob's..
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: ..in the House.
Message:
How is everyone tonight? I see you've had another bonehead premie insulting you. Current and Future? Didn't last too long in the ring.

Can't stay long, going out boogie-ing in a few. Any pressing issues happening?
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 17:58:21 (EDT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: nobody
Subject: 6 o'clock and all's well,
Message:
so I'm off out with the lads for a nippie sweetie and maybe a lap dance or three.
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 18:21:52 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Come on, Rob! This is video
Message:
night. You're blowing it! Oh, well, as MJ once said, 'If you can't experience K, you might as well climb a mountain and take your six-pack with you (or six bottles of congnac depending upon preference).
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 18:52:39 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Come on, Rob! This is video
Message:
Gail: 'If you can't experience K, you might as well climb a mountain and take your six-pack with you'

I just KNEW I was doing it right!!!!!!
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 21:18:48 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Come on, Rob!
Message:
Hi All,

I think Rob is shadow dancing. Not much intrigue there.

This Irish Lass likes the facts, albeit, I'll give some benefit of doubt... not too much.

Fool me once, fock you. Fool me twice fock me.

So careful lassies!

Love,
Mary m
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 21:33:37 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Come on, Mary! (OT)
Message:
Now do you fock yourself 2x there you sassy Irish lassie? How you doing there, Mary girl? My hearing is almost over. There's only 1 day left. The prosecutors got caught hiding evidence from me that they were supposed to disclose months ago, so I think they're about to get a paddling from the federal judge. God, I'm exhausted. But I do say g'night to S. Bernadette each and every night!
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 21:52:27 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Come on, Mary! (OT)
Message:
;-)

Why lass, I can fock me self anytime I want to!

Glad you trial is almost over. Where to they paddle the judges?

My Bridgette and you're Bernadette will have to get together.

Luv to you,

Mary focking Magdalene
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 21:57:31 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: PENANCE!!!! WAY OT
Message:
Well, now you've taken that sainted Mary Magdelene's name in vain. I'd say that calls for you to make several ghee balls and sing three arti's in your birthday suit outside wherever they're showing videos tonight of the Lord of the Universe.
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 22:41:46 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: PENANCE!!!! WAY OT
Message:
Oh, Oh... I'm out of cotton balls and clarified butter. (Now a true act of rebellion would have been to use a 59 cent candle from Walmart;-)

Arti.... sure I can sing RT'S (Dire Straits - MTV)!

I like Father John's penance much more. 27 years since my last confession and he only gave me 1 Hail Mary! Boy did I get off easy.

Luv Ya,
Mary the Magdelene at least for this evening!
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 19:05:43 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Rob
Subject: 6 o'clock and all's well,
Message:
Dear Rob,
Well am I glad I read your 2nd post before I replied or I may have sounded like I was interested in a lap dance!! :)
I have been really wanting to go out dancing lately but there isn't much choice in countrybumpkinville and I hate the smoke at bars. It seems belly dancing doesn't cut it in replacing rock and roll! :)
Have fun, be safe.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 19:41:56 (EDT)
From: Ron
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: 6 o'clock and all's well,
Message:
Wow, a loner who goes out with the lads, you are something, a very great person. We await with abated breath for your next message of ... of 'why can't we just get along', or is it? 'let the debate begin!'
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 19:56:25 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Ron
Subject: 6 o'clock and all's well,
Message:
Wow, a loner who goes out with the lads, you are something, a very great person. We await with abated breath for your next message of ... of 'why can't we just get along', or is it? 'let the debate begin!'

My feelings exactly, Ron. Here we have another poser trying to confuse fence sitters such as Liz, back into the fold. If I read her post right, she's now ''practising Knowlege, writing a check to EV and reassessing her viewpoint re BM'' because of this asshole.

Another arrogant cult shithead if you ask me. And fuck off to all you ladies gushing over this jerk. Look what he's done to Liz. I don't give a flying fuck if his ''feeling'' get hurt because he ''such a nice guy,'' he pisses me off. In fact, he's sleazier and certainly more dangerous than Catfuckweasel, because of his thin veneer of well mannered so-called reasonableness.

He's a cult member. He wants other people to be down in the hole he's in. He makes me puke.
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 20:47:53 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Liz
Subject: LIZ -- IS THIS TRUE?
Message:
Liz: I've been out of the loop recently because of my court hearing. What's going on with you? How are you doing? Gerry says you're back in the fold. Tell me what you're thinking. You can email me if you want. If you want to post, go ahead.
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 02:33:12 (EDT)
From: Fence-sitter
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Fence-sitting
Message:
I have e-mailed you. It's half past midnight. I should go to bed.

Liz
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 20:54:39 (EDT)
From: cp
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: 6 o'clock and all's well,
Message:
but its just the scottish accent. Kind of like Sean Connery

Didnt he say he has a mother in law?
To me that equates to hes married.

Here in New York do lads go a'lapdancing
when the mother inlaw/wife is in the sidelines?

I must get out this weekend and check it out.

Do you think Liz is so naive as to get swayed by his polite manners and level thinking? Enough to go back to writing out checks again?
Wasnt she kidding?

Gerry, you can be just as polite as he is. Be aware that we have not seen him in a nasty mood.
He is bieng gentlemanly just as you would in a new environement

We cant hold that against him. We should try to focus on the diologe .

No amount of smooth talk can erase years of exploitation as far as most of us are concerned
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 21:25:42 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: cp
Subject: 6 o'clock and all's well,
Message:
Hi cp,

geez, I hope you are right about Liz, but if you read that thread (near the bottom) it sure sounds like she is serious. Maybe not, though. It won't be the first time I've been wrong...

Talk is what got us in the cult in the first place, and yes, I do think smooth talking could sway someone who is on the fence back into the cult precisely because the years and years of cult programming and brainwashing.

I don't like his messing with people's minds when they are vulnerable, like Liz appears to be. I don't really care about dialog with this guy. He's as slick as the cover of ''And It is Divine.''

You know what I'd do if one of these smooth bastards started making inroads into peoples minds like this sleaze bag is trying to do? That's right, I'd cut him off at the knees.

This forum is NOT a democracy and we really don't have to allow insidious programming to harm already damaged and vulnerable people who come here to break the bondage of BM's shitty little cult.
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 21:57:07 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Do'na worry bout th Rrrobert
Message:
Alo Gerry,

Now doncha be worrien about the lasses. We've enough Irish on this site that know how to deal wi a man tha wears a kilt from time to time;-)

Aye, the puddin was bland. We'll be gatherin our pots and pans for all out assault should anythin happen to our Lizzie.

Luv,
Mary
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 02:37:38 (EDT)
From: Lizzie
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Do'na worry bout th Rrrobert
Message:
Thankee Mary.

Lizzie
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 20:56:20 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Excellently stated, gerry!(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 20:57:39 (EDT)
From: Ron
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: 6 o'clock and all's well,
Message:
I wonder if he has any opinion on Maharaji, if ask you my opinion his so-called premie status is just a mask. He can avoid discussing M which will avoid discussing his one-with-universe or some other personal half baked theory. He hopes his cheeky comments about M and premies will gain respect here and he can take us on a magical mystery tour of his beloved philosophy.
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Date: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 22:48:16 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: gerry
Subject: Liz, Gerry, Ron
Message:
Dear Gerry & Ron,
God, I have to stop reading here. It is to hard not reading it all. At first I thought Rob was a premie, then an ex now you say he is confusing Liz.

Dear Liz,
Please don't get sucked back in. That would be so sad. I know I bitch about the fighting ect here but shit, M is a fraud. You can do K without him if you get something out of it, you can do it 5 or 10 min a day, you are in charge. You are your OWN woman. This really makes me sad. You deserve more that the superfical existance and check writing that is part of the cult.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 00:58:52 (EDT)
From: Ron
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Robyn
Message:
I could go out on a limb and build my tree of opinions but, I'll let who Bob is shake out on its own, an it will, if he continues to post.

Being an ex-premie is not all roses even with support, but we can take back our lives. If one has lost faith and can't take back his life, would he be undeserving of the tittle ex-premie? Yes/no or huh?

Makes no sense, black and white, premie and ex-premie, also a lot of grey.
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 01:24:26 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Ron
Subject: Robyn
Message:
Dear Ron,
Hi, I see so many new names here tonight, it is great but confusion for me also.
I loved that phrase, 'I could go out on a limb and build my tree of opinions'. I just thought it was plainly stated someplace and I missed it, yes most things in life are grey.
I have been an ex for 20 years and there is NO fear of my getting back into it but I do still do the meditation, the techniques I want to do when and how I want to do them so I guess that is a little grey right there, eh?
From posts I've read here there are lots who have lost faith but can not take their lives back or it takes them years to get through that process.
I don't think I've seen you post before, are you in that grey area yourself or a die hard ex? Either way welcome and enjoy.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 02:44:04 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Liz, Gerry, Ron
Message:
Thanks for your concern,

I still 'think' I need to go to see the videos to be able to practice. In truth I know this isn't true but it is reality for me at the present. I wish I could fill my life with exciting things so I wouldn't have the time or inclination to go.

Liz
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 12:49:06 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: freedom@gtn.net
To: Liz
Subject: Liz, keep in touch--why not
Message:
I still 'think' I need to go to see the videos to be able to practice. In truth I know this isn't true but it is reality for me at the present. I wish I could fill my life with exciting things so I wouldn't have the time or inclination to go.

There is nothing wrong with staying active. See if there is something there for you. Just stay crispy, that's all. Really listen to what he says.

Personally, I think I needed to go to the videos two or three times a week to reinforce the programming. I associated feeling bliss, high, and mindless with MJ and his words.

I always have gotten rushes and 'blissed out (cringe)' at the school auditoriums where I teach. When the kids have done a good job, and everyone is focused, it is really high. I jabbed this girl who was sitting beside me and asked her if she was getting rushes from the show. She looked at me like I was crazy and then admitted she was.

It's a human phenomenon called the collective high. By associating this natural high with MJ we have learned to turn on that bliss by a thought of MJ, a video, a song, travelling to see him, kissing his feet, dancing with him, etc. Good grief. We have taken a natural experience and learned to manipulate it; it's a good thing we learned that. You've got to get something for your money.

I don't know how you found this site, but it can help to discern fact from fiction. There is no need to quit cold turkey (you got involved by sticking one toe in at first) or even quit at all; there is a need for making an informed choice. I lost your e-mail. Feel free to contact me.

Luv,

Gail
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 17:25:46 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Liz
Subject: Liz, Gerry, Ron
Message:
Dear Liz,
Well if it is excitement you want you could take on my life. Plumbing is not only NOT working but exploding all over the place. Pretty exciting I guess but I think I'd rather be peacful and not catotonic which is I'm sure what would happen if I went to a video of M!
Shit, uh pun not intended but it is where my thoughts are today, I still meditate but NEVER thought it was M 'giving' me the experience! I was so fortunate to never get that message, don't know if no one mentioned it around me or I missed it or just spaced it out, either is very possible! :)
I hope you can get to where you don't feel the need to go to the damn things anymore dear. There are lots who meditate just fine with out any connection to M at all. It is true and it can be for you also.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 05:18:59 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: Elementary my dear Watson
To: gerry
Subject: 6 o'clock Gerry's in hell!!!!
Message:
Good cop, Bad cop huh Gerry?God your slick.Dont know how we stay in front of you EINSTEIN.But we do!Perhaps because your the only one competing.
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 09:20:41 (EDT)
From: AHA!
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: cat in hell
Message:
It is NOT a mind game weas, YOU are responsible for
alerting the Queensland community about herr rawat.

Your involvement here has paid off for your lord in spades.
You should be proud of your self oh great devotee.
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 11:08:16 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: AHA!
Subject: I'm not sure, but I think
Message:
Catweasel is an American.
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 12:56:23 (EDT)
From: maybe but resides
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: here abouts
Message:
(message deleted by Katie)
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 13:57:34 (EDT)
From: Errrfff
Email: None
To: maybe but resides
Subject: here abouts
Message:
I'm getting catsicus. Anyone know a homeopathic cure?

E
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Date: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 14:54:24 (EDT)
From: restrain
Email: None
To: Errrfff
Subject: thy mouse click(nt)
Message:
xyz
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 05:41:08 (EDT)
From: Curious
Email: None
To: maybe but resides
Subject: here abouts
Message:
I'm a bit uneasy about this. I presume that's the address of CW's server. Does it stop there, or can you go even further, and how do you do it?
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 08:05:18 (EDT)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Curious
Subject: here abouts
Message:
Uneasy is putting it mildly. I'm shocked to see this .
Whats the explanation??
Pain in the neck that he (catfeeble) is, I thought that it was a pact that everyone was protected from that information going out.
Barney! did you do that?
Whats it say in the manual?
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Date: Mon, May 31, 1999 at 10:29:14 (EDT)
From: Curious
Email: None
To: cp
Subject: here abouts
Message:
I'm pretty sure I know the dastardly culprit, but am not sure of the ethicalness of telling, but the first letter of his first name rhymes with C.
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 10:06:18 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Curious
Subject: here abouts
Message:
I wouldnt expect any better.What Hypocrisy!Now you Know what your dealing with.That's why I have arranged a very wide loop.One rule for you 'specials' and one for everyone else?SOUNDS LIKE WHAT YOU CLAIM HAS BEEN YOUR LOT!
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 13:12:54 (EDT)
From: EV Security
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: here abouts
Message:
Mr Catweasel,

I believe we must meet before you are allowed to attend another event. We will attempt to contact you after Maharaji has accepted an invitation from AU.

thankyou
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 22:57:08 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: EV Security
Subject: Piss Off Fool
Message:
Like you worry me?
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 23:07:47 (EDT)
From: EVS
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Piss Off Fool
Message:
i bet a few muscles tightned up and yer grabed air for a moment.
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Date: Mon, May 31, 1999 at 03:33:29 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: EVS
Subject: Piss Off Fool
Message:
Hardly
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 13:09:47 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Curious
Subject: Don't worry about a thing!
Message:
Once I phone Brian to find out where Orlando was posting from. (S)he was particularily vicious with me, and I wanted to know the whereabouts of this poster. Brian said that just as I was protected, Orlando was protected. Your secrets are safe.
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 19:49:36 (EDT)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Curious
Subject: Curious!
Message:
Is this bieng looked into?
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 22:04:48 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: Curious
Subject: ID information and reassurance
Message:
I deleted the info given for Catweasel. Whoever posted it should be warned: do it again, and I'll ask Barney to block you.

I'd like to reassure everyone who posts here that we encrypt all information given by your server. I cannot give specific details on this, but PLEASE do not worry about being identified by posting here. I have checked the premie forum (run by CD) and the Internet Provider encryption there is simple letter/number substitution, so I suspect that that's where 'whoever' got Catweasel's IP (once you have the IP number, there's a program which will tell you the address of the IP).

By the way, it really makes me angry that someone would post personal information about a forum user on the forum. I'm sorry that this happened, Catweasel.

Take care all -
Katie
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Date: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 22:40:48 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: ID information and reassurance
Message:
Hey Katie,

For the record, I was 'Errrfff'.

No clue who 'maybe but resides' is.

And, heeded the 'restrain' to 'Errrfff' post.

My apology to cat also.

Mary M
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Date: Mon, May 31, 1999 at 02:49:01 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: ID information and reassurance
Message:
Indeed, the IP addresses which are sent by your browser to every server you ever visit, including the ex-premie.org server. These addresses can be traced to your Internet Service Provider (ISP) and there might be information as to the city in which your ISP resides.

Additionally, there are utilities to FINGER your account and your ISP might have your name and email name in that information. You might want to contact your ISP to remove such personal information. I recently did just that on one of my accounts.

For the record, as Katie mentioned, the IP addresses that ex-premie.org receives are encrypted in the remote possibility that someone hacks the site. This is quite remote since we have done everything possible to lock out intruders.

Additionally, at ex-premie.org we consider your IP address to be private and will not reveal such information. However, be forewarned that in the event of any criminal activities we will contact the appropriate law enforcement agencies and provide them with that information.

Finally and an important warning to anyone posting on CD's Premies and Friends chatroom on Paradise, the IP address that was posted here most likely came from the Premies and Friends chatroom where such information is freely available. So, if you are concerned about not revealing your IP then I strongly suggest that you avoid posting at the Premies and Friends chatroom.
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Date: Mon, May 31, 1999 at 10:26:52 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: ID information and reassurance
Message:
Hey Barney,

Didn't know that about the premies and friends room. HA HA I went there a few times and their virtual world shuts down. Maybe I ought to go to programs and their il-logical world would shut down;-)

So if anybody wants to have fun in the premie chat room you should borrow my ip.

Love,
Mare
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