Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 51 | |
From: Jun 5, 1999 |
To: Jun 14, 1999 |
Page: 3 Of: 5 |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 13:38:26 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: Meditation,experience,belief Message: In response to Jerry's question below about meditation experiences, I thought it time for a bit more of what Catweasel calls 'postulating waffle' on my part. Can I stress I am not claiming any special expertise here, just stating what I honestly believe is going on in meditation, or at least what is going on when someone reports they are having 'that experience'. (The first thing that happens, of course, is they sign away their rationality and maybe the rest of their lives...) Jerry, you raised that question about whether premies aren't necessarily having profound meditation experiences so much as kidding themselves and others that they are having them. (Or suggested that was what my view would be..) Correct! Or at least for a lot of the time I think that is exactly what they are doing... My previous posts on meditation vs. hypnosis have been based on the argument that gullible people make excellent lying bastards, given the right social situation. In fact all people make excellent liars when the need arises. Premies, however, are the most excellent time-served lying bastards of them all, being apprenticed to the supreme lying bastard Master of his craft and his cult. Whether genuine or otherwise, I am sure all premies hype up their experiences both to themselves and to others. And probably the most significant self-deception is the one that convinces them they are experiencing a quality of 'this precious life' unavailable to non-premies with non-precious lives. But I don't think that is all there is to it, for premies or followers of other spiritual traditions. There are a several thousand years worth of would-be mystics taking to the caves and mountain-tops to consider. They can't all be merely looking to win friends and influence people, surely? (Hmm.. a friend of mine trudged six hours through the Andean rainforest in search of an indigenous shaman who lived in holy isolation 8000 feet up. And there he was, in his sacred retreat, no doubt very wise as elderly shameless shamans go - I'm no expert - but he was also drunk and chiefly interested in his holy quest for a nubile indigenous person of opposite gender to impart a bit of sacred wisdom to.) I am sure all premies - and I mean the ones who hang on in there and 'give Knowledge a fair try' - must have at least experienced something from their involvement with the cult, for them to even carry on. (Perhaps they witnessed the Houston astrodome levitating in '73, the spaceships landing or peace on earth suddenly breaking out thanks to Raja Ji's curfew police doing the rounds and making sure the world's warlords, not to mention the dispossessed and starving were all right there in satsang at 7.30pm prompt each night.) More generally, premies will attest to a gentle, reliable and seemingly life-affirming process that is there for them day after day, which enhances their existences, and which it would seem churlish to deny them their right to enjoy. I would seriously question how much they are really enjoying themselves, in comparison to, say, me - but don't doubt they experience something. I had known enough of a Knowledge experience to at least believe that Prem Rawat might yet be the real thing, and carry on believing that for years after I stopped practising. Enough of an experience, at least, to believe that Knowledge is that experience pure and simple, rather than just another new age religion with a bit of meditation thrown in. And though it is far from the whole story, I think all of us must have experienced at least something from Knowledge. But what? I am not aware of any solid research that might explain what happens during meditation experiences specifically. (The Maharishi has a small research industry devoted to validating his teachings in scientific journals. Much of it is patent rubbish, and none of it independently funded, never mind replicated). To do the job properly you'd need access to vast funding for the use of MRI or PET scanners, as well some knowledge of the state of a person's brain chemistry whilst they are meditating. Then you'd need to correlate your observations with the person's subjective account of their experience - and compare with non-meditating experimental controls. But then as with hypnosis - which I am currently researching - I don't see meditation as a distinct state requiring any 'special process' explanation. The strangeness or beauty of any inner experience is just part of the strangeness and beauty of being alive as a complex organism, IMO. Going within might feel like a kind of hyper-reality if you like, but regular activity of the nervous system, just the same. And even though we don't fully understand the physiology of mental or emotional phenomena, I think certain conclusions are unavoidable. Firstly, we evolved by natural selection (no grand design of purpose necessary) into creatures with a sophisticated neural architecture providing preception, consciouness and emotion from simpler organisms lacking these structures. All three developments carry evolutionary advantages. Since meditation experiences confer no obvious survival or reproductive benefits they are probably no more than accidental by-products of those three systems. We 'see' light, 'hear' music, 'taste' nectar (involving perception); we experience well-being, even bliss (emotion); and we might have an awareness of being one with the universe (consciousness). And the fact of at least three systems being involved might also explain the inconsistency of meditation experiences - how sometimes you will have the sense of well-being without the cosmic awareness, see 'light' without feeling the bliss, cosy up to the universe without tasting nectar etc... (continued...) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 13:41:57 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Nigel Subject: M.E.B. continued... Message: (continued from previous) Get rid of the idea of meditation (or M's special recipe for it) as being a unitary state and you can ditch the idea of the Knowledge techniques being a magical master-switch that opens the door to that state, in the process transforming us from wormfood into angels. Ditto the idea of Prem Rawat as the facilitator for that process. I mean, can anyone honestly spot the join when they sit down under a blanket to meditate? Sometimes you'll be aware of an experience before you apply any technique; sometimes you'll do the techniques and experience seemingly nothing. You could even do a TM mantra ('I-ing' is one) and experience what feels like Knowledge instead. (Try it!). Hmm, very confusion. You may also be familiar with any or all of the experiences before receiving Knowledge. (Or perhaps you have simply arrived early for satsang or a program, sat quietly - with no deliberate use of techniques - whilst gazing at Maharaji's photo on the wall, realised you are feeling 'the word', maybe hearing 'music' and assumed some kind of cosmic connection. However, you could alternatively rip up his photo and piss on it, replace it with a picture of Charles Darwin and similarly have those inner experiences from sitting quietly and gazing at the great man's atheistic whiskers. I have even logged onto the forum and called Mr Rawat 'the kind of lying scumbag who could give wankers everywhere a bad name' and sat down afterwards and had a really nice meditation experience (purely for experimental purposes, of course). So could you, dear premies. Believe me, Maharaji is irrelevant, unless it is the devotion you get off on... If Knowledge was a simply a path of liberation through meditation, Prem could just say 'Here's the gift - go sit in a cave - goodbye.' Instead, it is 'Watch three videos a week and don't forget to show me some gratitude...') But if meditation is any kind of switch, it would have to be a dimmer-switch - simply reducing your awareness of the outside world by degrees. No instant transportation from the darkness of Kali Yuga into the perfect light of Maharaji's World. And I wouldn't be surprised if the place you eventually end up is much the same as what the early psychologist William James called the 'buzzing blooming confusion' experienced by newborn infants. New premies will often talk about how safe and familiar the experience of Knowledge feels. Like you have been there before. This fits with my own take on it. (The next paragraph will be very speculative, but no more so than when Prem Rawat talks with apparent authority, as he did recently, about a baby knowing exactly what it needs - implying of course that an adult therefore needs Prem Rawat). Why does focussing on the breath feel nice? Well it's only my theory, but even more than food or physical comfort, a newborn infant needs to keep breathing. Fine, they can usually manage to do so unadaided. But wouldn't it make evolutionary sense for very young babies to apply whatever rudimentary free-will they may possess to monitor their own breathing (when they are not otherwise busy puking and bawling, of course!) and take whatever limited steps they can to prevent their airways becoming blocked? Since there is no way they can rationally understand the importance of doing this, evolution provides them with a pleasurable sensation from simply allowing their attention to focus on their breath and a desire to remain with the sensation. (For adults to rediscover that simple pleasure in later years might be less of a case of spiritual progress than one of arrested development!) If I am wrong about this, I think nonetheless that the various experiences of Knowledge are definitely by-products of the evolved perceptual, emotional and consciousness sub-systems I mentioned. How else could they arrive? Psychologists believe it takes some time before the undeveloped brain of a newborn baby can properly distinguish between its own existence and that of the surrounding world: to distinguish 'self' from 'non-self', in fact. What would that be like from the baby's point of view? - cosmic consciousness? The very same merging with the universe that mystics go searching for in later life, perhaps. Meanwhile, the perceptual components (light, music etc) can be put down to random or non-specific cell-firing in the brain areas associated with sensory processing, and the emotional well-being to increased production of endorphins in the limbic system. True for adults and infants alike. Although this might not have been proven scientifically in the case of meditation, there is some compelling evidence for the link between this kind of neurological activity and a person's having a 'divine' inner experience. (I know I have raised this example several times on the forum but I think it deserves repeating, especially for any new premie visitors reading. If they find themselves unwilling to consider the implications, they might instead ask themselves whether they might, after all, be in a cult...) Briefly, the US airforce owns the world's largest centrifuge. This takes the form of a simulated cockpit which which whisks pilots around at unfeasibly fast speeds, to test the body's reactions to g-forces. Meanwhile they are wired up to various physiological monitors, and interviewed about their subjective experiences afterwards. They will tell you they get a white light bliss-out every time, 100% guaranteed. You can watch the pilots' faces as they whizz around and see the guys positively gurgling with ecstasy like premies fresh out of a darshan tunnel. (Hey - Prem's a pilot. Perhaps he should try it). The white light they see takes the form of a tunnel - just like those reported by people who have had near-death experiences, or is sometimes experienced in meditation. The tunnel of light is an illusion created by the random firing of cells in the visual cortex. These are tightly packed at the centre of the visual field but more sparse further out. The experience of bliss involves the natural opiates in the limbic system which go into over-production to counter the stress of the g-forces. (Come to think of it, premie bliss might arise through a similar over-production of the feel-good stuff in response to the stress of being in a cult!) BTW: It was funny to see Divine Times (in one of Marianne's threads below) repeating that old rubbish about the pineal gland providing the interface between body and spirit, and therefore the place where light happens. Probably just as well medieval neuroscience no longer features in Elan Vital publications. But from the bits of reading I have done, I find it interesting that not only does the limbic system control our sense of emotional wellbeing, but it is also responsible for our motivational state. Bearing this in mind, there might not be such a big difference between the psychological state of believing yourself to be having a 'spiritual' experience and actually having that experience - especially if for 'motivation' you read 'inspiration'. Feeling inspired at a Maharaji (or any other) event could involve exactly the same brain states as when meditating on the breath. This would certainly help explain how those cults without the meditation component - say, the Moonies - manage to keep their show on the road. It would also imply that, were Maharaji to ever abolish meditation as part of the practise of Knowledge (and let's face it, he has already removed it for 23 hours of the day), it would still be business as usual. 'Business' being the operative word, of course... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 15:28:32 (EDT)
From: Gregg Email: binduesque@yahoo.com To: Nigel Subject: M.E.B. continued... Message: Nigel: Very interesting!! I like your theory about infant breath memory. Have you ever read Ken Wilber? He talks a lot about what he calls the 'pre-trans' fallacy; that is, that New-Agers in general confuse the prerational/infantile feelings of bliss with the beyond-bliss simple recognition of What Is that characterizes the transrational state (his label for the genuine mystical state). Wilber also writes about brain activity during meditation...others do too, but he's more convincing than others with axes to grind (if that's the right term for what the TM people do with their 'scientific' 'studies.') I'm not so sure about the lack of evolutionary advantage conferred by meditation. This is an almost purely speculative area of course (did you ever hear people speculate about the evolutionary function of homosexuality? Makes ya wonder.) See, a warrior is a better warrior if he has trained for years in martial arts techniques. Right? So if mediation increases awareness and capacity (e.g. for love, the most mammalian of all evolutionary capacities), wouldn't mediation be sort of a meta-advantage? Of course, I question how much more aware I was as a premie, but, these days, doing a less cultic and more tantric mediation -- tantric used in its broad sense as involving the world and life and stuff in spiritual work -- it seems to me that I'm a better person when I'm involved in awareness work than when I'm involved in my own little thought-tangles. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 16:29:42 (EDT)
From: barney M.E.B.s = Email: None To: Gregg Subject: Maharaji Evoked Blackouts (nt) Message: yikes! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 20:43:00 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Gregg Subject: Nigel, Gregg, Annon ect. Message: Dear Nigel, Gregg and Annon, I just added the ect because this isn't a 'private' meeting! :) Nigel, your post is very interesting. Here I am trying to be less analytical and then I read these posts! I just love how your mind works though. I too liked the idea of the baby and doing the word technique. Do you still meditate for relaxation or just for science? :) Do you think it is a valuable practice if not connected to M? I also have had strong experiences of meditation without using the techniques or with the word, it kind of got away from me and took on a life of its own, very strong and intense. I have has spontaneous vibrational experiences in the last few years as well. I just loved your description of your meditations Annon. Beautiful. I always thought, even as a premie that the meditation and the experiences that came from it were just abilities of human beings. You know that we only use 10% of our brains, well I thought these experiences were beyond that 10%. Gregg, I would love to hear more about the meditation you do now. Either here or in email, whichever you feel more comfortable with, if you don't mind of course. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 07:17:24 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Gregg Subject: Hmm, interesting... Message: Hi Gregg, No I hadn't heard of Ken Wilbur, but I sort-of like the sound of his approach. Not sure about the 'beyond bliss recognition of What Is' bit, however. I can only imagine meditation being a evolutionary meta-advantage if it actually increased your chances of leaving offspring behind. But I certainly think that the desire for a guruhood - especially the kind who enforce celibacy on their followers whilst enjoying multiple pairings of their own (David Koresh, for one)- could arise through some recognisibly primate alpha-male tendency. (Don't get me started on gay genes, right now..!) Cheers. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 08:51:03 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: nigel Subject: Hmm, interesting... Message: Nigel, Meditation gives people a feeling of security, sometimes of being in touch with the infinite, free from time and space, and as a result, from death. Matt Alper, in his book 'The God Part Of The Brain', puts forth the hypothesis that as humans, we are unique in that we know we're going to grow old and die. Other creatures only know of death when its staring them in the face, like a zebra that suddenly realizes its being chased by a lion, or a mouse that rounds a corner and is confronted by the neighborhood cat. Otherwise, it's no bother to them, a non entity. But for us, it's a constant spectre. The immanence of death might otherwise be an incapacitating awareness if we didn't have some means at our disposal for combatting it. Meditation is one such means. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 11:59:33 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jerry Subject: Hmm, even more interesting... Message: Thanks, Jerry, I think I might check that one out. Though I'm not sure whether feelings of immortality would improve or reduce your likelihood of leaving descendants. Mightn't despair about death make you more likely to seek comfort elsewhere - and I mean of the human kind? Or even seek immortality by proxy by leaving lots of kids behind? There seem to be an awful lot of celibates among the most enthusiastic followers of the major world religions... But I suppose if religious faith helped keep your head out of the gas oven until at least you had reached child-rearing age, the fellow might just have a point! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 15:48:20 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: nigel Subject: Hmm, even more interesting... Message: But I suppose if religious faith helped keep your head out of the gas oven until at least you had reached child-rearing age, the fellow might just have a point! This is pretty much the point he's trying to make. Anything that helps free us from our anxieties is going to increase our chances for survival because of the better frame of mind it puts us in. Otherwise, if there was no relief, our ancestors might have been in such a state of despondency they either would have jumped off a cliff just to end it, or at the very least would have been muttering to themselves in despair as a hungry saber tooth crept up for dinner. EP strikes again. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 08:12:50 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Gregg Subject: M.E.B. continued... Message: Gregg, How do you differentiate the 'prerational/infantile' state from a 'genuine' mystical one? Couldn't they be the same? First off, it's still debatable at what point consciousness occurs in a still developing brain after a child is born, nor is it known just what a newly conscious being is first aware of. One thing that's known is that the mystical experience is frequently (always?) accompanied by a feeling of remembrance, of returning home to a place long forgotten. Wouldn't this indicate that the mystical experience is a memory? And if it's a memory, than it has to be the result of some experience gone through in life (unless, of course you believe that memory goes back further than this life, a belief I don't share). So, assuming that it's a memory of a state we were once in, than it's feasible that the mystical state and the memory of our consciousness at an earlier age, perhaps when we were infants, are one and the same. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 20:05:50 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: Nigel Subject: My meditation. Message: Your post made me reminisce about my best experiences in meditation. I don't know whether it was my neurones getting fired up or what. There was definately a correlation between my attitude (mentally) and the experience. My best meditations would go something like this: Sit down and straighten back. Do light technique for a long time, perhaps even an hour with support of beragon to alleviate arm pain. Light technique (No.1 as it is now called) was always kind of my favorite. I would sit and basically just do the technique and concentrate very hard. I would also become very small in my self and sort of pray to God to reveal himself until sometimes tears would stream down my face, under the blanket. It was a very emotional experience, and I would become quintessentially alone (which was the most delicious feeling). I would feel a very strong, enobling, childlike yearning to know why I was here. I would demand some revelation from my creator. Often after a while and some flashes of light, I would relax a bit and usually, whether my hands were doing the technique or not, some very bright light would flood my vision. If I opened my eyes all I could see was light too. A brilliant white light. I would feel as if I was in a room of light. I would feel that this was a response to my yearning and would also feel an increasing awareness of all the other techniques. I would feel satisfied. From then on , practising the other techniques would be easy. Almost automatic. I would do the music technique, which I found particularly useful in quietening the thought process, and then the Word. That would feel indeed like balancing on an exquisite stillness beyond the motion of my breath (I can feel it now) and also would coinside with the taste of nectar. My third eye would burn and I would feel ecstatic. I would feel very light-headed and often emerge from meditation totally stoned basically. Sometimes I would be giggling and incoherent and my mother and father would be infected with my drunken mood. Nectar definately wasn't 'snot' as far as I was concerned BTW. It was a part of an experience of a real intoxication. I don't know what it was but it wasn't snot, otherwise I would taste it all the time. (I didn't have to do the technique to taste it either). The time of my life when my meditations were the most intensely blissful was probably when I was back living at my parents house in the country, where the still summer evenings provided a beautiful backdrop to my experience. Ironically my experiences imbued me with determination to give my life to Maharaji. Then things went gradually downhill until I found myself a part of mad premie society in the ashram. I also gradually tired of having meditation as pretty much the only pleasure in life. I started to miss the things I enjoyed in life and felt life wwas passing me by. Moreover I was dissillusioned since I thought that if I gave myself to Maharaji, I would have more opportunities for blissful service and a sense of purpose. The reality was more or less having to do dull jobs, for which I needed no talent, in dull places, in the company of some of the most serious humourless people I could imagine. Of course I also made some good friends. Nowadays I do a kind of lazy meditation when I go to bed, lying down, as I go to sleep. Almost by habit. My mistrust and disillusionment has been so severe however that I no longer can muster my former hopeful determinations to meditate conscientiously. As a probable consequence, I have to say that I don't have a very strong or rewarding experience. I would like to get as high as I used too but the bad associations I have really put me off from doing it at all. I tell myself I need a break even though I enjoyed the practice once. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 21:08:04 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Anon Subject: My meditation. Message: I really enjoyed your post. I could really relate to it. When you talked about the soft summer evenings I really felt like I was there! I had very similar experiences of what I would call REAL meditation verging on if not mystical experience. There's nothing like it. Love, Liz What were you guys DOING in the Ashram? Too bad there's the rest of life. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 22:18:51 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Liz Subject: Liz Message: Dear Liz, Hi, I was just wondering about you. I hadn't heard from you, which is fine btw and hadn't seen you on the forum and was thinking I should drop you a line but I haven't done it yet. I have been writing for work and just sneaking over here now and again. :) Hope you are well. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 23:12:36 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Nigel Subject: M.E.B. continued... Message: Nigel, Thanks for your input. I enjoyed reading what you had to say. For me meditation is no big whoop. At the very least, it's an interesting challenge on how long I can maintain focus and at most it's a means to serenity (sometimes), though not the only means nor a preferred one. I am aware of nothing cosmic, spiritual, or mystical that meditation can provide. That used to bother me. I felt I was missing out on something. Today, I'm free from that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 20:45:49 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Meditation,experience,belief Message: >The strangeness or beauty of any inner experience is just part of the strangeness and beauty of being alive as a complex organism, IMO. Sounds good! >Firstly, we evolved by natural selection (no grand design of purpose necessary) into creatures with a sophisticated neural architecture providing preception, consciouness and emotion from simpler organisms lacking these structures. Now, what about the beginning in the infinite past? What did that evolve from? Regards, CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 20:53:47 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: Why do you ask, Chris? Message: And, by the way, why did you remove your 'happy birthday' thread from your own web site? And, furthermore, why don't you communciate like a human being? Why won't you answer questions instead of just taking these weird little pot shots? Anyway, back to the issue at hand, is it your view that if we can't explain the whole story we don't have to accept any part of it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 21:14:29 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Jim Subject: explanation can be fun Message: >Anyway, back to the issue at hand, is it your view that if we can't explain the whole story we don't have to accept any part of it? You know very well that I don't have a problem with science. Many of the scientific and mental models are useful in practice and provide intellectual enjoyment. We do have to humor ourselves with explanations. We should not delude ourselves as to the extent of our understanding of the intricacies of what exists. A balance between the feeling of wonder and the utility of rational logic is appropriate. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 06:47:11 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: CD Subject: I wonder about you... Message: Chris: The reason people find your whimsical interjections rude or ‘passive-aggressive’ is the way you invariably ignore the central point and seize on some irrelevant detail. And I do wish you would stop wittering on about ‘logic’ versus a ‘sense of wonder’. It is as meaningless as comparing ‘yogurt’ with ‘the colour blue’. A sense of wonder is not the Hamster’s exclusive province - though I truly wonder what I ever saw in him. Nor is it even something known only to new age space cadets. Rationalists fall madly in love, too. So what? A sense of wonder doesn’t confer ‘understanding’ - and it is only the Hamster’s cult-speak which claims that it will. And anyway, Mr Rawat runs a cult in the real, physical world and his whole philosophy is chock-full of implicit real-world cause-and-effect claims. For instance: - Squeeze eyeballs, plug ears, watch breath, tongue up for 15 minutes each daily. This will bring about an experience known as ‘Knowledge’. - However, the experience isn’t in the techniques. But unless you do them, you are not practising Knowledge. - These techniques will only work if after an individual has ‘received’ knowledge from Mr Rawat or duly appointed proxy. - If the proxy leaves the organisation, he/she will mysteriously lose not only the authority, but also the ability to give Knowledge. - Attending events will ‘deepen’ both your experience and ‘understanding’ of Knowledge. - Expressing ‘gratitude’ through financial donations or unpaid labour will have a similar effect. - Ditto watching videos (in no particular order). - The content of the videos, or quality of thought contained therein is not important, provided Mr Rawat is the speaker. - Mr Rawat’s singular status was acquired through the transmission - by anomalous means - at his father’s funeral, of a non-specific, non-physical substance known as ‘Grace’. This mysterious event endowed Prem Rawat with the requisite attributes of a ‘Living Perfect Master’ - the chief of these being, the divine authority to give Knowledge. - Satpal Rawat is not a Living Perfect Master. He is of the same family but not of the ‘authentic lineage’ to reveal Knowledge. Get it off him and the damn thing won’t work. - Remembering Mr P. Rawat at the moment of death will have a beneficial effect on your prospects in the hereafter. etc... BTW: What do you think of the centrifuge experiments? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 21:15:49 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: nigel Subject: I wonder about you... Message: >though I truly wonder what I ever saw in him. You have the answers but you don't >Squeeze eyeballs, plug ears, watch breath, tongue up for 15 minutes each daily. This will bring about an experience known as ‘Knowledge’. If only it were that easy. You seek to build up answers on top of logic but you won't ever get satisfaction that will last. >And I do wish you would stop wittering on about ‘logic’ versus a ‘sense of wonder’. It is as meaningless as comparing ‘yogurt’ with ‘the colour blue’. Yes, meaningless to those that it makes no sense to. >BTW: What do you think of the centrifuge experiments? An ant can fall off a table and survive. Pretty amazing. We will never peel that last onion skin off of ultimate understanding by means of logical constructs or science. OK, its fun to try! CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 21:34:11 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: Ignoramus Message: An ant can fall off a table and survive. Pretty amazing. You're doing it again, stupid. Glorifying fake mystery, not wanting for a second to know the real explanation for whatever supposedly intrigues you. Do you really think this phenomenon's so strange? When was the last time you asked a scientist why this might be so? Of course you haven't and you won't. You jsut need an excuse to play make believe. Weenie. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 20:19:35 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jim Subject: Like, WOW! Message: Jim: All I can say is BWAH HA HA HA HA. Why would anyone find an ant falling off a table, and living to tell about it, 'pretty amazing?' I'll tell you why..... because the don't understand the simple, simple dynamics involved. So let's amaze CD with some other 'wonders'..... Why is there a meniscus? Wow, simply amazing that a liquid 'climbs' the side of a glass. Why does the earth circle the sun? Wow, it should be flying off at a tangent shouldn't it? I mean, what's holding it in place? (oops, I said 'tangents,' and that's a scientific/mathematical word....sorry cd). Why do plants grow? I mean, they just sit in place and grow without any 'apparent' stimuli.....just sitting and growing towards the warmth of a glowing sun....defying gravity.... enjoying the moment.... Why don't mountains just fall down? There's obviously nothing 'holding' them in place? A miraculous miracle, that's for sure! That ought to be enough challenge for now. Something to get all goo-goo-eyed over, that's for sure..... such a glorious mystery! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 23:17:41 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Mike Subject: Trillions and trillions Message: Mike, really, how can you ask CD such trivia when he's been trillions of light years away and you astrophysicists can't get passed the billions? At least I think he's been that far out. Why else would he say this... And what about the creatures in the outer realms from our existence at 10 trillion light years. Yeah, what about them? Seriously, is there any evidence at all that there's anything out there beyond, say, fifteen billion light years? Only a premie, I think, could make it to ten trillion (they're probably the creatures he's talking about). Amazing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 10:12:07 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Trillions and trillions Message: Thanks Jerry, I stand corrected. I didn't see that post; I will address it now. CD: The age of the universe never even gets close to a trillion years. The age of the universe and its proper determination happens to be one of my areas of astrophysical expertise. Trust me when I tell you that, despite some contention concerning exact age, EVERYONE AGREES that the universe is between 10 and 20 billion years old. The current figure appears to be between 12 and 15. Nowhere near a trillion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 00:32:44 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Mike Subject: amazing present! Message: >Why would anyone find an ant falling off a table, and living to tell about it, 'pretty amazing?' Because ants don't usually talk much. >Why does the earth circle the sun? Wow, it should be flying off at a tangent shouldn't it? I mean, what's holding it in place? Good fortune. >Why do plants grow? I mean, they just sit in place and grow without any 'apparent' stimuli.....just sitting and growing towards the warmth of a glowing sun....defying gravity.... enjoying the moment.... You are starting to learn! Why is it spelled 'S'+'E'+'X' ? CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 07:05:21 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: CD Subject: Irrelevant Message: Now, what about the beginning in the infinite past? What did that evolve from? If the beginning had evolved, it wouldn't be the beginning, would it? Evolution is about life, and life on earth got started just three-and-a-half-billion years ago. In another three-and-a-half billion years it will all be over, so they say. Knowledge is also about life. Mystical experiences happen (if and when they happen) within living organisms - so let's leave the origins of the universe out of it, heh? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 11:20:17 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: nigel Subject: Don't leave your computer Message: Nigel, I'm not sure whatever else you had planned today but I wouldn't wander off too far. CD's bound to give you a thorough and thoughtful reply sometime later this morning. Don't go away...... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 21:25:51 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: nigel Subject: inevitable Message: >If the beginning had evolved, it wouldn't be the beginning, would it? I don't know. What was in the beginning? I don't believe that there is such a thing as a beginning in this case. But we are free to define one as a postulate. >Evolution is about life, and life on earth got started just three-and-a-half-billion years ago. Is something beginning for those three-and-a-half-billion light years away? And what about the creatures in the outer realms from our existence at 10 trillion light years. How high can you count? Have fun, CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 11:52:38 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Maharaji (the 20th) okays mind Message: From the AP newswire: Nearly 400 years after the Roman Catholic church condemned Nicholas Copernicus's discovery that the Earth revolved around the sun as heresy, Pope John Paul II visited the astronomer's birthplace and praised his scientific achievements. 'The discovery made by Copernicus, and its importance for history and science, remind us of the ever-present tension between reason and faith,' the pope told officials of the university in Torun named after the astronomer. The pontiff is on the third day of 13-day trip to his homeland. The church condemned Copernicus' theory in 1616 and later condemned Galileo for supporting his findings. Copernicus' book 'De Revolutionibus Orbium Coelestium' was banned by the Church until 1822. In 1992, John Paul proclaimed that the Vatican had erred when it condemned Galileo. In praising Copernicus' achievements on Monday, the pope noted that new scientific breakthroughs were 'growing at a dizzying rate.' 'This progress gives rise to both wonderment and fear,' he said. 'Man is becoming ever more fearful of the products of his own intelligence and freedom ... Concern for the moral conscience and the sense of moral responsibility has today become a fundamental imperative for men and women of science.' The pope has warned of moral dangers associated with recent breakthroughs in cloning and artificial fertilization. In the audience, modern Polish astronomer Alexander Wolszczan praised the pope's call for defining the relationship between faith and science. 'They complement each other, though it is not always evident,' said Wolszczan. 'They are both directed at man and especially now ... we are absorbed with so many problems, their cooperation is necessary.' In 1992, Wolszczan discovered the existence of planets outside our solar system. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 11:39:42 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: New important post for Rob Message: Rob, As I lose faith in your integrity I stop taking this discussion with you so seriously. Sorry, fella, you started by making a really strong impression but it's been largely downhill ever since. A couple of promising risers, but overall course is down, down, down. Considering M's many claims to divinity you posited below a very reasonable question: what if he really is? Fair enough, Rob. BUT, unfortunately for you, that axe swings both ways. I'll answer your question, then please answer mine. Yours: If he really is, then we're all hooped perhaps. Hooped or forgiven (a la Prodigal Son theory). Gnashing of teeth or overwhelming forgiveness. In that case, the world really is a very whacky, whacky, irrational divine play. Rationality, in that case, would be a deadly trap, a life-waster. Better to be a dervish and just a humble one at that. No, if M's really God, we really blew it and we'll know and OOPS!is right.Now, my question: What if he isn't really God? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 23:10:15 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Jim Subject: New important post for Rob Message: I keep getting these junk mails from Publishers Clearing House that proclaim themselves in pretty much the same way. 'Important News' 'YOU could HAVE WON...' Really, what is with that subject line?? Oh well, on with the show. As I lose faith in your integrity I stop taking this discussion with you so seriously. Thank goodness, maybe now we can start to enjoy each other's writing a little more. As for losing faith in my integrity, what can I say? It's not the first time you've lost faith in something, is it? So I have my ups and downs when I post. Depends on how late it is and what sort of a day I've had. Sometimes I really can't be bothered, but write anyway. What sort of strong impression was I making? A premie on the brink? A rock set to withstand the fiercest onslaught? I'd love to meet the person you think I am, someday. So much for my commentary on your commentary on my commentary.... Now to the 'big' question. Little touch of Grandstanding here, playing to the crowd. Really, 22pt font Jim? I do believe I prefaced that joke with my own view that he isn't really God, but no matter. What if he isn't? For me, nothing changes. Zippo. Nada. I still have communication with the 'real' God, as always, I just don't know what size shoes He wears. Or if he wears them at all, (barefoot Jesus, perhaps?) Perhaps you should ask me what God tells me about Maharaji. You and Marianne (sorry to drag you into this) can throw Divine Times quotes at me until my hard drive's full (13GB, long way to go yet), it doesn't change anything. If you say he said he's God then, and you say you found out he isn't and that's why you left, FINE. You want to call him a liar, be my guest. You want me to call him a liar, go fuck yourself. Excuse my French, but, you know, you seem to forget that I am perfectly entitled to hold my own opinions, maintain my own beliefs and set my own boundaries. Is it not true that you are 'losing faith in my integrity' because I won't give in to your line of questioning and give you the answers you are looking for. It's so predictable; anytime I don't ''fess up' and admit this or that about Maharaji, I'm 'being dishonest'. Do you realize how transparant your devices are? Can we please see Jim, the human being for a change and give Jim, the lawyer some time-out? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 23:33:06 (EDT)
From: Powerman Email: None To: Rob Subject: Geez Message: You're pathetic, Rob. Just pathetic. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 02:16:52 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Rob Subject: Tell me about entitlement Message: If you say he said he's God then, and you say you found out he isn't and that's why you left, FINE. You want to call him a liar, be my guest. You want me to call him a liar, go fuck yourself. Excuse my French, but, you know, you seem to forget that I am perfectly entitled to hold my own opinions, maintain my own beliefs and set my own boundaries. What is this 'entitlement' you're talking about? Where'd it come from? Who first had the idea? Who, when and how was it promulgated? Say I thought all blacks were ugly, little monkeys, would I be 'entitled' to my opinion? Or if I thought Marshall Applewhite was the ultimate travel agent? How about if I thought Bal Bhagwan Ji was the Lord of the Universe? Or maybe that Maharaji is the devil incarnate? Would the holders of any of these opinions be equally entitled to their views? Tell me about this 'entitlement', Rob? Tell me how it relates to truth and the search for same? Rob, let's face it, you came here to do a PR job but you've just ended up embarrassing yourself. Is it worth it to stick around? What do you think you can accomplish at this point? You do look like a coward, you know that. What's the point continuing? This page isn't for you. It's not for people who can only pretend to discuss Maharaji. And that's waht you are Rob. Once someone hits that point where all they can say is that they're entitled to their opinion, the game's over. You lost, bud. See ya later, huh? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 02:27:39 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: My answer Message: Actually, that question got me thinking. What does it mean to say one's 'entitled' to their opinion? I think it means that, so long as one's engaged in a good faith search for truth, one's entitled to think whatever they do at any point in the journey. Once one stops the process, however, their 'entitlement' shrivels and dies. That's why the bigot's not 'entitled' to his opinion. His opinion's forged in ignorance and preserved by unnecessary, immoral 'boundaries'. I don't think one's entitled to both their opinion, whatever it may be, however wrong it may be, and whatever boundaries they're comfortable with. After all, if that were true, every bigot in the world would be able to argue 'comfort zone' and that'd be that. No, it doesn't work that way. It can't. It just isn't right. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 09:17:22 (EDT)
From: Powerman Email: None To: Jim Subject: That's why Message: they say, 'Opinions are like assholes... everyone's got one.' Opinions are overrated. A person can be opinionated without being intelligent. And of course, you can have an opinion and still be wrong. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 14:14:56 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Powerman Subject: That's why Message: A person can be opinionated without being intelligent Yes, I think you've already demonstrated that, thank you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 14:11:50 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Jim Subject: Game's still on Message: I'll leave when the webmaster blocks me, sir, and not before. Please feel free to discontinue our little debacle any time you wish, however, there are plenty more people here you can do battle with, I'm sure. Say I thought all blacks were ugly, little monkeys, would I be 'entitled' to my opinion? Or if I thought Marshall Applewhite was the ultimate travel agent? How about if I thought Bal Bhagwan Ji was the Lord of the Universe? Or maybe that Maharaji is the devil incarnate? Would the holders of any of these opinions be equally entitled to their views? The answer to all those questions is, of course, yes. People are indeed entitled to freedom of thought. Now obviously the laws of the land, and common decency, dictate where and to what extent we are entitled to expressthose thoughts and opinions. In the context of this Forum, those boundaries are set first by my consideration for my position as a guest here, and secondly by Barney, should I get a little heated and overstep the mark. I have no intention of researching the origins of freedom of thought & speech, you are perfectly capable doing that yourself on the WWW. The whole premise of your last, desparate paragraph falls apart because of the simple fact that I did not come here to 'do a PR job'. That was your invention. Neither did I come to compete verbally or play games, so winning or losing is irrelevant. It does look like you are going for early closure, a sort of Fool's Mate. Why? Have you run out of steam so soon? I'm just getting warmed up. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 16:28:16 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Rob Subject: Game's still on Message: Have you run out of steam so soon? I'm just getting warmed up. Warmed up to what, Rob? You've already told us that you're not about to answer questions you don't like; you refuse to follow logic if doing so compromises anything else you might have said, you have put up the lame shield of your boundaries..... Here's what you might not understand. We've seen this all before. There was another guy, Lance Tane, who absolutely promised to talk this Maharaji stuff through rationally and thoroughly. When push came to shove, he bailed just like you did. Al his bravado melted and he shucked and shawed, scuffed his toes in the dirt, stopped making eye contact and ran away. All that's different about you is that you're sticking around for some weird reason. Then there was that joker, the 'LET THE DEBATE BEGIN!! guy. Was that Shp? I get you all confused. I can't remember if that was him or not. Anyway, this guy crunched like a cheap tin can as soon as we started going. So why, Rob, are you sticking around? Once you've realized and admitted that you're not up for the discussion, why not leave? You say the 'game's still on'. How could that be when you refuse to hit the ball? Oh, I see, you'll just hit the balls you like? Sorry, Rob, it doesn't work that way. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 00:28:45 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Jim Subject: That makes three Message: times in 24 hours you've asked me why I'm sticking around. I guess I must be getting to you? I actually don't mean to. No, really, I can see how our conversations have deteriorated lately and it's a shame, but I believe I know why. You've already told us that you're not about to answer questions you don't like Here we go with that 'us' again. This is your ball game, Jim, and aside from a few hecklers like Powerman and Gerry, (one and the same?) I don't see too many others adding constructively to the thread. Either we're grossly misunderstanding each other, or you really are taking half truths and turning them around to make me look bad. I have said time and again there are some questions I don't have the answers to. Is that so unusual? There are also questions to which you reject my answers because you don't like them, or they don't reinforce your point. you refuse to follow logic if doing so compromises anything else you might have said 'Logic' in this case being Jim's logic, which is tailored to lead solely to your own conclusion, viz: Maharaji is a liar and a fraud. Here's what you might not understand. We've seen this all before 'We' again, spokesperson or class bully? Anyway, I do have the zipped archives, I've read a good deal of your threads going back to '97 and guess what? You repeatedly use the same distorting and disparaging tactics to scare off premies. It all starts nicely enough; two academic minds tussling with differences of opinion, but then, slowly, the character assassination begins. Usually in the form of paraphrasing with additional colouration of you own. Slowly painting a sorry picture of the other person for the benefit of your peers. Then begins the 'why don't you just leave' strategy. Because ultimately, that's what you want, isn't it? You deeply resent premies being allowed in this Forum. So why not create your own? Make it a 'premie-free zone'. Screen everybody first, set access passwords, ISP/port filters. Would that make you happy? I know this is principally a forum for ex=premies; that a lot of mutual support and healing takes place. I don't interfere with that. I'm not a sniper, jumping into threads wherever a bit of M-bashing is going on and causing a stink. Some of it actually cracks me up. Weird, huh? There is some inspired hunour taking place at times, that I enjoy contributing to. So what is it Jim? You're the Gatekeeper? The Balrog sent to bite the heads off weak little premie-hobbits who dare enter the cave? Or is it simply that I'm not expressing my answers well enough for you to grasp my meaning? Oh, I forgot to mention the final tactic, that of bringing the conversation down to such an acrimonious level that Mr Premie starts being abusive and gets himself blocked by the webmaster. Well that worked with GI, aka shp et al. Like I said last time, if you're unhappy with our conversations, lets shake hands like gentlemen and agree to differ. There are many and varied people here for us to converse with besides each other. Otherwise, may I please have your next question? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 01:11:27 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Rob Subject: Sure, Rob, anything you say Message: Either we're grossly misunderstanding each other, or you really are taking half truths and turning them around to make me look bad. I have said time and again there are some questions I don't have the answers to. Is that so unusual? There are also questions to which you reject my answers because you don't like them, or they don't reinforce your point. Yeah, Rob, right. There are also questions you refuse to explore (your 'boundaries', remember?) and answers you've given that are incomplete at best ('but what if he is the Lord?'). These are the interesting points of the discussion, Rob. But because you won't go there, the discussion won't go anywhere. Tell me something, do you really think you fool anyone with your attack on 'Jim's Logic'? And tell me this as well, how do you think your general impression on people here is evolving? Do you think people respect you much? How about compared to, oh, last week for instance? And if, by chance, you think your reputation's degenerating (my personal opinion -- that is I believe that your general reputation's on the decline for sure), is it all my fault? When do we get the 'Jim hurt me' trip full-blown? I can hardly wait. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 02:10:47 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Jim Subject: Sure, Rob, anything you say Message: will be taken down and used against you. I'm kidding, OK? Let's go backwards on this, for a change. When do we get the 'Jim hurt me' trip full-blown? You haven't hurt me Jim, and never will. I don't take any of this personally, I know you're just blowing off steam. , how do you think your general impression on people here is evolving? Do you think people respect you much? How about compared to, oh, last week for instance? And if, by chance, you think your reputation's degenerating (my personal opinion -- that is I believe that your general reputation's on the decline for sure), is it all my fault? Well I wasn't planning on applying for the webmaster's job, and I don't expect to be on anybody's Christmas card list. I didn't come here expecting to make friends, nor to impress people. Again, you're describing dynamics that only exist in your head. Respect? Reputation? Tell me Jim, who am I? What colour is my hair? What is my occupation? How do I like my eggs? You're anthropomorphizing the text on your screen. If this were the Oxford Debating Society, perhaps those things would count for something. Tell me something, do you really think you fool anyone with your attack on 'Jim's Logic'? More emotive words: fool...attack. I think I made a fair comment in that I beleive your reasoning is underpinned by your agenda. Perhaps I should add that it's something we all do, consciously or otherwise. .. answers you've given that are incomplete at best ('but what if he is the Lord?'). These are the interesting points of the discussion, Rob. But because you won't go there, the discussion won't go anywhere. Doesn't have to end where I leave it. Sometimes I just don't see what you're driving at, and therefore head off in the wrong direction. I'm not a mind reader. 'But what if he is/isn't the Lord?' In respect of what? My decision to stay with him? His 'reputation' in the world? The way Knowledge is being presented now? See what I mean, there are many avenues that can be explored from either of those two scenarios, I'm just not sure which one you are most interested in. There are also questions you refuse to explore (your 'boundaries', remember?) So why can't you respect that? I don't beleive it's at all uncommon for people to have boundaries in some aspects of their lives. I can tell you I'm married, that my wife is beautiful, that we get along fine, but I wouldn't go into bedroom details. I can tell you I'm financially comfortable, but I won't fax you my bank statement. I can tell you I spoke with Maharaji recently, but I won't tell you what was said. So if (I) won't go there, then let the discussion go elsewhere. I'll be away from my desk for the next 18-20 hours, so don't think I'm ignoring your next post(s). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 19:22:11 (EDT)
From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Three Stooges Message: Keith: ''Let the debate begin!'' Rob: ''I'm just getting warmed up!'' Shp: ''I am a fully mature Ram!'' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 20:27:36 (EDT)
From: Curly Email: None To: gerry Subject: Hey, just wait a minute there! Message: Don't mess with the STOOGES man! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 22:15:36 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Curly Subject: Hey, just wait a minute there! Message: Oh Curly, I heartily agree! So Curly, you grew up in Brooklyn. I grew up in Spencerport, on the Erie Canal in upstate NY, by Rochester. Did you ever hear of Fresh Air Kids? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 01:27:34 (EDT)
From: Curly Email: None To: Marianne Subject: The who? nt Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 10:50:03 (EDT)
From: gerry Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Northern New York Message: Born and bred in Watertown, myself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 12:18:43 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: gerry Subject: Northern New York (OT) Message: Do you know the LaTray family? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 12:27:18 (EDT)
From: gerry Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Northern New York (OT) Message: WHAT IS THIS, CHIT-CHAT??? No, I don't know the LaTrays. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 12:57:14 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: gerry Subject: Dangerous OT chitchat Message: Hi Gerry! Yes, it's damnable chit chat! I also spent part of my teenage years in western Michigan. Being out west, and in a city, I don't get to see autumn, and it is a great lament of my life. this year I'm going to Colorado, it appears, to see the fall colors. Watertown & Black River are beautiful areas. Were you in scouts? Did you ever go to Massawepe (sp?) in the Adirondacks? My brothers used to go there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 12:30:40 (EDT)
From: Curly Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Huh? nt Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 13:01:06 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Curly Subject: Huh? Message: Hi Curly! How are you doing today? Fresh Air kids were kids from the projects in NYC that would get sent to the country for the summer so they could get out of the city. My best friend's family had a girl from NYC every summer named Janette. She taught us protected little upstate girls quite a bit about growing up, shall we say.... I take it you never made it into upstate... By the way, what do you think about the info re: M's finances? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 20:58:28 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: gerry Subject: Thanks Ger Message: Yes, it was Keith. These fools are all the same. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 11:27:18 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Correction - I WAS barred Message: So last night my friend, Robert Ruben, who invited me to the satellite feed the other night (sounds like something you do with your cattle, doesn't it?) called me again. He told me that, in fact, after he got off the phone Sunday afternoon he mentioned to Dave Helland, whose place it was, that he'd just invited me. Dave told him that I wasn't allowed at any Divine Light Mission functions (come on, doesn't that sound better than EV? Works for me.) Robert said that he didn't think I'd be disruptive (I told Robert that) and Dave said that he'd 'deal with it' when I got there. As it turns out, I got there late anyway so what the hell? Robert and I also joked about that asshole, Mueller, that he came over from Saltspring with. He told me that of all the premies I could ever spark with this guy was the nastiest. (Little does he know how easy it is to strip the cheap Peace, Love and Understanding veneer off these guys.) He told me that when they were driving over Robert and buddy's girlfriend were talking about something and Mueller jumped on them, 'That's bullshit. [i.e. chitchat]. You don't need to tlak about that.' Take me back, Maharaji! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 11:55:26 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Jim Subject: Correction - I WAS barred Message: What possessed your friend, Robert Ruben, to invite you after all this time? What does he think of your banishment? Is he still really involved? Who is Dave Helland? How does Dave Helland know that you should be barred at any Divine Light Mission functions? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 15:14:13 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gail Subject: Correction - I WAS barred Message: What possessed your friend, Robert Ruben, to invite you after all this time? What does he think of your banishment? Is he still really involved? Who is Dave Helland? How does Dave Helland know that you should be barred at any Divine Light Mission functions? Robert's this crazy guy I know who just likes Maharaji. He's a character; you'd have to know him to get the picture. He knows I hate the guru; he must have thought it'd be fun to watch me show up. What does he think of my banishment? I don't know, I'll ask him. Dave Helland's just a local premie -- long-timer -- whose house they were using. Now how does Dave know that I should be barred? That's a good question. I'm going to find out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 16:39:39 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: Jim Subject: I wanna go to a program! Message: Hi Jim - I was interested in your story about being barred from a video program (I still can't figure out what they thought you would actually do!). The reason I'm interested in it is because I would REALLY like to go to a program where Maharaji is speaking live. I have no other motive except curiosity - I'd just like to see what the premies and Maharaji are like now. I think I've written here that I haven't been to a program since March of 1977, and, of course, things were WAY different then. CD's already told me that he thinks I can get in, and maybe I could if he were there to help me. (Actually, I think I'd WANT to be there WITH CD after what Rob said about it being dangerous for Gail to come to a program!) But I'm really not into spending the money to go to wherever if I can't even get in the hall. What I want to know, I guess, is whether I'm persona non grata (in other words, 'on the NO list') for any of Maharaji's programs. Anyone here care to enlighten me? Take care - Katie P.S. I promise not to create ANY kind of disturbance (if y'all knew me, you'd know that that's a far-fetched possibility). I won't hand out leaflets or ex-premie cars or anything. I just want to see what it's like now. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 17:42:33 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Katie Subject: I wanna go to a program! Message: Katie, I think you could get in. I think the cult is particularly concerned about enemies getting into their 'participation' meetings and satellite feeds that are particularly 'for people who have received knowledge.' I guess they figure Maharaji and whoever else might be more candid there about what the whole trip is really about. If it's an introductory program, where M doesn't say ANYTHING excempt that it's 'so beautiful,' I doubt you would have a problem, and those things are supposed, supposed, to be open, free of charge to the public. Plus, you aren't that well known since you split so long ago and so you probably wouldn't be recognized anyway. Here is what I would do to have a better chance of getting in (note to EV security, you better be on guard) I would say I was a premie but use a different name. Say your name is Michelle Pfeiffer and that you received knowledge in 1972, from Mahatma Fakiranand, but that you haven't been around for 23 years )(left in the Ranaissance of 1976), but that you are just so excited to see Maharaji again. They don't have any records and have no way of verifying this, especially from those days. Tell them you live in some big city, like New York so that they can't expect other premies to be able to report on you. Although I'm sure you are on some enemies list at EV from participating on the forum, they have no idea what you look like and if you use a different name, no one would know. Then you have to come back and report everything you saw on the forum. Fair? Just a suggestion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 20:10:39 (EDT)
From: Diz Email: None To: Katie Subject: I wanna go to a program! Message: Hi Katie honey I'd be interested to hear your feedback, if you do get to go sometime. I'm glad to hear you won't be handing out any of our cars. Much as it would be good to facilitate premie-ex communication, I do think giving them our wheels would be a bit much. Love ya Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 20:14:08 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Diz Subject: Very funny, Diz :) Message: Diz honey - Now you're picking on little old me for typos. I'm shocked! Plus Jim is the acknowledged typo king around here - he's likely to get jealous. Seriously, I didn't catch it, and it was a funny one. Love, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 20:37:01 (EDT)
From: Diz Email: None To: Katie Subject: Hi Katie (OT) Message: Hi Katie Seems like we're on line together. I've got an e-mail brewing for ya. I hoped you wouldn't mind my picking up your typo. I've got a weird sense of humour which gets triggered by that kind of thing. Have you seen those books which reprint typos from newspapers? When I was a kid, my family used to read out those out loud. We kids would roll around the floor in hysterics. I still find them really funny. Love, Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 20:44:13 (EDT)
From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: Diz Subject: Hi Katie (OT) Message: It is just like all you ex-premies to be so wicked and mean and treat each other without the infinite love with which premies treat other premies and everyone else. Truly, if the whole world would be premies there would just be love, and perhaps a few murders over front row seats at programs, but that's beside the point. You just don't have that experience anymore and it shows. There is just no substitute for that love, that truth, that joy, that peace, that understanding, that knowledge, that fulfillment, that thirst, that within inside you breaththing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 12:54:30 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Diz Subject: Hi Diz (OT) Message: Hi Diz honey - I must have logged off just before you posted. No problem with catching the typo - I got teased about it at home, too (BTW, though, we have a 1970's vintage Volvo that hasn't run for three years that I'm dying to get rid of... I'd definitely give that away at a program if I could get it there!) Looking forward to your e-mail - Love, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 10:25:11 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Focus on the form of... Message: .... Guru Maharaji Always remember his every word is Holy. .... Always pranam to the supreme power, the SatGuru (From a thread almost over the horizon) Anybody remember more of that song? Isn't it what m & k is about? I'd love to have an audio clip of that song. I guess I have a tape somewhere... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 11:28:20 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Here are the Words.... Message: For those unfamiliar with this song, in about 1979, Mahatma Guru Charnanand, who everyone considered to be the closest person to M outside his family, recorded English language versions of various Indian devotional songs on a cassette named 'You are my Everything'. Also on this album were other devotional songs from the group 'One Foundation'. In my opinion this song was one the best devotional songs recorded. The instrumental version of this song was released on a mid-nineties album. It was also quite clear that this was done with Maharaji's blessing. --------------------------------------- Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji Always remember his every word is holy Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji Always remember his every word is holy In your heart cherish the form of Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru In your heart cherish the form of Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru No one should remain in illusion's misery Without Satguru no one is ever set free No one should remain in illusion's misery Without Satguru no one is ever set free Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji Always remember his every word is holy To our souls he's the perfect destination He removes the false and grants true devotion To our souls he's the perfect destination He removes the false and grants true devotion Satguru ends the sufferings of birth and death Endless his glory, infinite his praises Satguru ends the sufferings of birth and death Endless his glory, infinite his praises Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji Always remember his every word is holy Truth is revealed only be satguru's grace The soul becomes intoxicated by his grace Truth is revealed only be satguru's grace The soul becomes intoxicated by his grace His blessings unfold the lotus of the heart Light appears within and darkness departs His blessings unfold the lotus of the heart Light appears within and darkness departs Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji Always remember his every word is holy Satguru is the creator the lord of destiny He is the supreme power and will always be Satguru is the creator the lord of destiny He is the supreme power and will always be Nanak has been given this revelation Without Satguru no one attains liberation Nanak has been given this revelation Without Satguru no one attains liberation Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji Always remember his every word is holy Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji Always remember his every word is holy In your heart cherish the form of Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru ..... (to fade) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 12:00:00 (EDT)
From: Curly Email: None To: JHB Subject: Yikes! Message: I'm not very Maharaji literate. All I can say is YIKES!!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 13:06:54 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Curly Subject: Yikes! Message: So Curly, after reading this, do you WANT to be Maharaji literate? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 13:23:25 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Curly Subject: Yikes! and some (OT) Message: Dear Curly, Does not being M literate mean you aren't or never were a premie. It doesn't matter to me as I think anyone has a right to be here but I was just curious. I also just have to relate this little story because that is how I am. :) When I was a little girl, 5 and under. I, with my 2 older sisters would sneak to watch the Three Stooges because my mother didn't approve. Being the youngest of the 3 of us I was delegated to keep look out for my mother so I couldn't totally enjoy the shows but I remember loving them and that element of defiance was pretty cool for me too! Love, A life time fan :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 16:23:55 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Curly Subject: Charanand Doubts? Message: I heard a rumour once that Charanand left M's holy lotus feet for a while. Has anyone else heard this rumour? It's hard to believe. Liz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 20:16:40 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Liz Subject: Charanand Doubts? Message: Hi Liz, Where on earth would Charanand fit into the covered up, spit shined, 'Private Investor, Elan Vital Church/ Foundation'? Lizzie... I luv ya but M and sharks have morphed to a new level in marketing. Similar to shrink wrapped pop in a box software (promises the the moon upon installation) and then the 'Blue Screen of Death'. Don't worry about Char though. He successfully morphed into 'The Mask'. Everyone thought it was Jim Carey behind the mask but hey Charanand's bone structure was a perfect match! And the church of EV certainly doesn't need that tongue wagging. Someone needs to get in contact with him and let him know.... do not fly in any helicopters until you get it in writing the pilot was NOT trained in one of M's advanced, graphics flight simulators! Luv, Mare Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 21:29:52 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Liz Subject: Charanand Doubts? Message: When BBJ split with M, charanand went with BBJ for a short period. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 12:45:01 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Correction... Message: Second stanza should read:- 'In your heart cherish the feet of Satguru....' 'Feet' not 'Form'. Pedantically yours, John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 12:56:13 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: JHB Subject: Devotional songs now online! Message: I think that section was missing on my website, and the 1st one is now available online: Sing your love to the Lord Any suggestion for some other samples of how to express your love to the Lord of the Universe? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 13:08:58 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Devotional songs now online! Message: J-M: You're a glutton for punishment! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 13:19:46 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Please mistress Message: When are you going to punish me? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 13:35:42 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Please mistress Message: I'll punish you as soon as you sing 'The Lord of the Universe Has Come to Us This Day' in your ashram pajamas! Do you have a fax? As I was looking at these old DT issues, a couple of leaflets for satsang fell out of one of them. I used to go to Detroit and leaflet with the ashram premies there, down by the waterfront. It's a Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji leaflet. What a flash to the past! I remember going door to door with the magazine with my secret sweetie from the Detroit ashram. After a few hours, we's take off for a park and fool around together. I was never good at the vow of celibacy. He was such a nice guy, now deceased. He moved to Boulder, became a small plane pilot, and had an accident. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 14:30:47 (EDT)
From: Curly Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Yikes! Message: Dear Robyn: As I mentioned before on this forum, I am an ex-aspirant. What kept me from being a premie was my disgust with the process of attaining the 'divine knoiledge'. I just hated to see people being bullied by Belkin as I have mentioned before on this forum, became tired of sugary videos and new age music (I really dig Bach fugues though, specially if played by Glenn Gould). So as Jean Michel has stated, Belkin saved me from the cult. Out of simple curiosity I checked altavista on sites about Maharaji and ended up on this site of which I have become a fan of. I think what you guys are doing is great and that it takes a lot of courage. Knowledge (not knoiledge) is power. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 19:58:33 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Curly Subject: Yikes! Message: Dear Curly, Sorry about that, I do wish I had time to read all the posts as so often things connect from one thread to another and lots of OT stuff too which I love. Glad you didn't get sucked in and that you found us and even like it here! :) Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 16:19:26 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Do you want the words to any Message: other songs? 1972 on Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 03:53:37 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Gail Subject: That one? Message: 'I would give everything I own Give up my life, my heart, my home I would give everything I own Just to have you back again...' etc. I know there are definitely some old very powerful ones I can't remember for the moment. Maybe you can? Or I should dig into my old tape boxes... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 13:14:50 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Transcriptions coming up Message: I've got some real oldies. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 20:30:02 (EDT)
From: Diz Email: None To: Jean-Michel, John, Curly Subject: Focus on the form of... Message: Boy. I do indeed remember that song. The songs really say it all, don't they? Part of the 90s revisionism has involved rewording some of the old songs, I think. It's not just songs written specifically for devotional purposes which shed light on the messages that went with being a premie. The other day I was innocently walking around the local shopping centre. As usual, the muzac was pouring out songs to buy by. On came one which was completely familiar, although I don't know who sang it originally: 'I would give everything I own Give up my life, my heart, my home I would give everything I own Just to have you back again...' etc. The song brought up an image of myself singing it to MJ with huge longing. At a program somewhere? I don't know. Brought back that feeling of being lost, and it being my fault, and needing to come back to the lotus feet. To crawl on my hands and knees with my nose in the dirt, as I remember MJ telling us one of Kabir's devotees did (or was it Kabir himself after a fit of ex-ness). Then I listened to the words. The idea that I should give up EVERYTHING for my connection to MJ was in the song, and in my memory of how I sung it. Quite an insight. No wonder I felt kinda stressed when I tried to give attention to things outside MJ's world. No wonder I didn't retain too much self-esteem (well, there was only one aspect of 'self' which was worthy of esteem, wasn't there, and that aspect belonged to MJ, if it wasn't actually him himself). Also brought back how hard I tried, for so many years, to connect to MJ. Strange days. There's still so much emotion for me around this whole trip. Diz PS Hi Curly. Welcome to the forum. I'm enjoying your input. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 22:41:32 (EDT)
From: Curly Email: None To: Diz Subject: Thanks Message: Thank you. It's nice to be here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 23:22:36 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Curly Subject: More Stooges (OT) Message: Hey Curly! Thanks for your lengthy response to Barney. I think that it helps all us ex's to know that you enjoy the Forum and that it has helped you to understand your aspirant experience. If you read the Journeys, you will see that you are not alone. I particularly love your comments. My husband says that he saw the Stooges in person when they were out promoting their new movie 'Around the World With the Stooges' or, maybe 'Back in Time with the Stooges'. Something about time and the Stooges. That's why he has me around. I remember too much sometimes! Glad to add to your knoiledge of the Master Stooges. Stick around. You're a hoot, and also very intelligent. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 23:41:35 (EDT)
From: Curly Email: None To: Marianne Subject: More Stooges (OT) Message: Well, now will you marry me? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 00:28:05 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Curly Subject: Bigamy is a crime, Curly! (OT) Message: Oh Curly! You are so cute. If I commit a crime, I can't defend people on death row anymore. What do you think about the death penalty, Curly? By the way, I read your post about experiencing a very difficult death. I am so sorry about that. I have too -- my dad committed suicide when I was 17. Death is hard at any age, especially so when it is unexpected, gruesome and/or at the hands of another. If you were exposed to any of these, or all, my heart goes out to you. Can you tell us what part of the US, if any, you grew up in? Yours is Stoogehood, Marianne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 01:58:40 (EDT)
From: Curly Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Syraight out of Brooklyn nt Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 02:51:00 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Curly Subject: Syraight out of Brooklyn nt Message: Dear Curly, That is where I recieved K in 1973 or 4. I don't remember the mahatma's name either, it always amazes me that everyone remembers those names, it just gurgled past my mind as so many unrememberable syllables. I grew up in NJ and had relatives in the City, saw lots of concerts there as a teenager and although I thought I would freeze up, I got right in there and drove like a maniac in 1996 when I took my older daughter there who was going to Africa. Anyway here I've talked to you a couple times and so rudely never welcomed you here. Glad you are enjoying the conversations. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 17:54:44 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Syraight out of Brooklyn nt Message: Ya. Hullo there, Curly. Moe Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 20:57:51 (EDT)
From: Curly Email: None To: Gail Subject: Hello Gail Message: Hi Gail: Years ago me and a friend of mine planned on writing a book called: 'Dr. Horowitz and Prof. Stein's Guide to Life'. Its topics included Bach and Chinese food. Funny enough, the chapter on chinese food was going to be called 'Bliss'. Anyway, my point is that I saw the last M show and it wasn't that big of a deal. Mostly a lot of lame jokes from the LOTU which in my humble opinion accounts for the lack of sense of humor the premies I've seen round here have. To make a short story long, Prof. Stein and I planned to eat at every chinese restaurant in Chinatown (NY) in the course of one year. After three months, we decided that we had to have lunch three times a day to meet our deadline. After a year of eating three lunches a day, we were nowhere near our goal, and concluded that Chinatown, like Bach was interminable. But boy did we enjoy the journey (as well as put on some pounds). Eventually Prof. Stein moved to England and the book project was shelved. Too bad. You seem like a very nice person. Forget the ramblings of this third rate corporate guru. Instead go to the nearest 'Joy Luck', order some roast duck, and on the way home buy the Tocattas performed by Glenn Gould. I don't know what your taste in music is, but they sure work better for me than plugging up my ears. Love Curly Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 11:13:55 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Curly Subject: Welcome! Message: Welcome! Nice to see you here. Liz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 03:51:19 (EDT)
From: barney Email: None To: Everyone Subject: deprogramming in the '70s Message: I've been thinking lately that we are, in a very limited way, doing online deprogramming here at Ex-Premie.Org. Usually, it doesn't seem to work with the hardcore cases like shemp and Rob. It would seem that we'd have to resort to illegally kidnapping them and holing them up in a motel somewhere in Nebraska or something. Let's see, maybe Jim by himself could handle shemp with the aid of a game of checkers, Yes or No - is it a king?. We'll team up all wonderful women for the around the clock deprogramming of Rob (I'm gonna get killed for that one.) Might have Gerry and Powerman dressed in drag to help play out the good cop/bad cop routine. Gerry and Powerman could also play the part of the vice cops kicking the door down in the raid if we get really desperate. Seriously now. The above is purely satire and should not considered to be a threat Here's a book by Ted Patrick Let Our Children Go (circa mid to late '70s) And here's the link to The War of the Cults I'm including the Reader's Digest excerpted version here. My comments are bolded and labelled. Actually, the excerpts are almost as long as the real thing. The War of the Cults Wayne Sage Human Behavior October 1976 This excellent article was written in 1976, 5 years after Ted Patrick initiated his kidnappings/deprogrammings. The practice was then at its height and several cases of cult conservatorships were also recorded. Wayne Sage is making a very good assessment of the situation and of the arguments on both sides. Barney: Follinwg is an interesting tidbit about what the Krishnas have to do to reduce their libido rather than rely on some glandular changes that occur through meditation: The deprogrammers took him to Canada, where he shed the loincloth that Hare Krishna followers keep tightly tied around their genitals to discourage sexual desire and joined in the nightlife of Montreal. Barney: From the Krishna dude. Notice the similiarities. And, hey speaking about your church falling apart! 'The anxiety and hassles and conflicts are not our real life. Our real life is meant to engage in spiritual life,' explains Shapiro, Bosu Gopal once again, now at the Hare Krishna temple in New York. 'It's very difficult (to follow the vows of the Krishna faith). By mere association, I'm able to do it. That's why we're living in a community. And our movement is strong because of this association while other churches are falling apart.' Barney: After the deprogramming... Hey, this sounds like us! But where some find spiritual elevation, others find personal debilitation. Once deprogrammed, they stay deprogrammed, and sometimes, disturbingly, join the ranks of the deprogrammed with all the fervor that they once followed their prophets and gurus. Barney: Hey, we weren't the only ones that were Robots for God! Lockwood accepts the explanation of his parents and the deprogrammers that he was brainwashed by the fellowship. Says he, 'They [the fellowship] separate you from your family and then there's total emotional deprivation. You're on an emotional tightrope where you're unsettled one way or the other. It gets to the point where your nervous system can't handle that anymore. The conscious will to be self-determining breaks down. They get you to the point where you don't have any self-worth anymore. The only thing you're worth is serving God. Being a robot for God.' But Lockwood admits, as do most of the 'deprogrammed' and few of those still in such groups, that it was not the belief that was important but his reason for believing it. 'I was torn,' he recalls, 'between my hatred of the outside world and my jealousy at not being able to function there. People get into these groups because they are afraid. We are confronted with problems faster than we are able to deal with them, and we seek out little cocoons. Especially kids who don't see a future for themselves, who don't see a future for the world. They think to keep themselves sane, they would rather relinquish their minds to somebody else.' Barney Ramone: I'm going mental Some of the parents, exasperated with their sons' and daughters' religious obsessions, have committed them to mental hospitals. Admits one psychiatrist who has handled such cases: 'When you come right down to it, the only problem with these kids is that they worship Moon. We haven't got a cure for that.' Of course, the deprogrammers believe they do have such a cure, and some parents are eager to buy it. Notes psychiatrist Thomas Szasz of the State University of New York, 'Parents want to believe in brainwashing so badly because otherwise they have to admit to themselves that the kid they devoted 15 or 20 years to has rejected them and their values. That's a bitter thing for a parent to have to admit.' Barney: Ah, here it is, our very own DLM 'The only way to make my parents admit that,' says a member of the Divine Light Mission, 'would be a deprogramming. If I didn't know what it's like firsthand, perhaps I would hire Ted patrick to deprogram my parents.' Barney: Some words about brainwashing Interestingly, Gresler puts little stock in the deprogramming as such or the brainwashing theory embraced by his parents. 'Ninety percent of the brainwashing a person does to himself,' he says, 'Ten percent is the fantasy. During the deprogramming, they tried to destroy the fantasy. They tried to prove Moon's theology was wrong and a ripoff. That's neither here nor there. Anyone when they are in the group can see it's a bunch of bull. The real break comes when you decide to face yourself.' According to Gilmartin, such groups prey on people who want desperately to live a meaningful life but whose lives have been reduced to meaninglessness. Such people wander into the group to check out what seems an alternative lifestyle void of the existential anxiety they are experiencing. The newcomers are gradually sucked away from the environment that has shaped their thoughts and behavior. Gilmartin describes a horrendous process by which the new converts are worn down by poor diet, lack of sleep, exhaustion and exposure to the elements. The group isolates the converts and then plays on guilt feelings and increasingly restricts the converts' thoughts and behavior. 'It's an amazing process,' Gilmartin comments. 'I know when I first got exposed to it, if someone had told me what I'm saying right now, I never would have believed it. I was astonished to see how by the use of a number of social techniques they can gradually reduce the decision-making process, the ego functioning, till the person almost becomes 'autisticlike.' He doesn't go outside his little self-encapsulated beliefs.' The whole process can be described as 'socially induced ego regression,' according to Gilmartin. That is, the member gives up 'reality testing' and '[illegible] functioning' (i.e., thinking for himself) and acquiesces completely to the 'expectancies and demands of the social unit' (i.e. obedience to the 'cult'). People freely enter such groups, Gilmartin admits, 'but once the social process begins, the individual is not freely capable of exercising free will to leave.' Barney: There's other interesting stuff in the article and the website. There was a group of weirdos in Tucson called the Body, a sort of religious wolf pack that travels nomadically, coming down into the cities periodically to preach the gospel and scavenge in garbage cans for food. Yeah, that's the life for me! Give me your money now or I'm going to show you light brighter than one thousand shinning suns with this hammer. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 04:02:31 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: barney Subject: deprogramming in the '70s Message: Dear Barney, Very interesting post but my favorite line is: 'The real break comes when you decide to face yourself.'' I think that is very true! Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 04:09:35 (EDT)
From: barney Email: None To: Robyn Subject: yes, almost highlighted that Message: I almost highlighted that with bold, but figured that it would stand out on its own. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 08:11:57 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Robyn Subject: deprogramming in the '70s Message: 'The real break comes when you decide to face yourself.'' That's it, Robyn. Maharaji and his brand of cronies get you to thinking that you're not who you think you are (especially if you have doubts about THEM). They try to convince you that you're someone else deeper than you're able to go without their loving care and guidance. The truth is that when 'you decide to face yourself' you realize that you were always there, right under your nose, patiently waiting for yourself to snap out of it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 11:32:59 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Great post -- and funny? Message: Barney, You crack me up. I can't tell you how often I laugh at your stuff. Lots. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 11:58:45 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Barney Subject: deprogramming in the '70s Message: Can I be a lapdancing deprogrammer for God? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 15:39:40 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Helen Subject: deprogramming in the '70s Message: Only if you turn Rob into an ex. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 17:41:29 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Marianne Subject: deprogramming in the '70s Message: I'll do anything for the cause, but since I've gained a bit of weight I might crush the man--ha ha. I'm that that fat, but I'm a big healthy girl if you catch my drift. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 08:41:44 (EDT)
From: Tattoo Email: None To: barney Subject: deprogramming in the '70s Message: Thanks. The part about hatred of outside world and jealousy of not being able to function there hits home real hard. Describes me in 1974, when I joined the GMJ cult and probably today 3 years after I left. All those years of intense involvement did was help me deny the real issue. To say and allow others to say he was the LOTU and then to take it back over the years is worse than if I was to tell a woman I loved her just to get her in bed and then never call her again. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 22:16:40 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: barney Subject: deprogramming in the '70s Message: We'll team up all wonderful women for the around the clock deprogramming of Rob Hey I'm in. Could take a long, long time. And a lot of women (not to mention whiskey). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 23:39:45 (EDT)
From: KB Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Talking with J.Kosiken Message: Tonight I spent some time with JK the federal government's y2k 'czar'. I told security I was with FEMA and got into the reception. Nice orderves by the way. I caught John in a mood to talk and hardly anyone around. He said nationally the water situation is hard to get your arms around and there were many laggard community run water companies that were at risk. The trains have millions of lines of code and thier own communications systems outside of ma bell. His office has worked with efforts to make sure that coal deliveries happen to power plants. He said transportation WAS a concern in other areas as well. He said shipping and ports were among the last areas that got themselves organized and his office had trouble getting the global shipping groups together on standards. He was happy to say that as a result of thier efforts, the industry DID work for a couple days together and came up with standards that were distributed to all ports and shipping companies (hopefully) and that many companies are going to stay at sea around the change and see if this or that port are working. He said any that don't work may take months to bring around. He said he is organizing an intenational event at the UN for 120+ counties and groups of nations in different regions are forming small groups with one nation sort of heading the effort and they are trying to keep the number of nations that 'fall of the map financially' as low as they can. Products we are getting at low prices now from overseas may not be available and the availability will cause price inflation. People should prepare based on thier own circumstance and thier assessment of thier local power, water, gas, ect. suppliers. He said that in 1970 Johnny Carson made a joke about toilet paper disappearing off store shelves and for 3 weeks there WAS a shortage because his audience went out and bought more than usual. JK didnt want that to happen. So he hopes people slowly prepare for a disruption based on thier own assessment of thier community service providers. My own comment would be to review what you buy that comes from overseas and buy ahead. Next years shoes, to olive oil from italy. No harm picking them up early. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 03:52:17 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: KB Subject: Talking with J.Kosiken Message: Dear KB, You mentioned water but I heard to have enough water on hand to last a month. What about heat also. Here I live with a wood stove but I will probably be moving and if things work out, I know where I will be moving to and there will not be a woodstove, that makes me nervous. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 20:54:57 (EDT)
From: KB Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Talking with Robyn Message: Well Robyn, it does somewhat depend on your area. Hopefully your area is a good area. You can call your water supplier. I am doing something that costs nothing, I just keep the gallon milk jugs after the kids get done and put them in a large plastic bag with tops off till I fill them in late january. No cost, and they do add up over the weeks. Nothing wrong with having blankets in the house that are real good. They cost little. Candles are cheap, one thing worth knowing is that power spikes are possible and they can fry your electrical equip. Computer, vcr, tv, fridge, so it is reasonable to unplug things when you arent using them till your area is steady and they say that. We may have our essential services but unfortunately latin america and other nations will have some severe problems and I wish them well. Where are you moving to? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 22:33:05 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: KB Subject: Talking with Robyn Message: Dear Bill, Well I just reread my post and I think I am out of my mind! :) I do know what area I am moving to but not exactly where I will be moving! Sheesh! I am just moving closer to work, an hour drive now, once Jade, my youngest, 2nd and last remaining child at home, goes off to college in the fall. I have stayed here so she could stay in her highschool. I have a couple of possibilities and none of them have wood stoves but when my chimeny was plugged here or ran out of wood and money before warmer weather came I have survived through night time temps in the teens and twenties so I know I can do it. I think I will start saving the plastic milk bottles too, good idea. RT would be so proud of this conversation. :) I think of him everytime I hear about this topic. Yes, I hope everyone gets through this unscathed. I am working on a grant proposal and the key is it has to deal with rural PA. This proposal involves government entities in rural PA becoming computerized in a few key areas and why the movement is slow and finds so much resistance. I said that this 2YK isn't going to help those who already are leary of computers! Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 03:31:13 (EDT)
From: KB Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Talking with Robyn Message: I hope you get your funding. THIS year. Who knows what dept's of the federal govt will be slowed up or halt because they cannot track grants or funding. They are not done with missions critical systems yet and rural grant dept's might not rate high on the fix list. Also Intel issued a report where they worried out loud about the fact that Japan has about 100 companies that are critical to producing computers. And it looks iffy that they will be ready. Sun microsystems head said that buying computers may very well be imposible next year. Their suppiers are a year to a year and one half behind. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 20:32:24 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Everyone Subject: K ends material desires: M Message: In the April 1, 1973 Divine Times, GMJ announced the creation of DUO -- Divine United Organization. This organization was going to change the world. I quote below from the satsang GMJ gave in a video about DUO (which I recall seeing) and was printed in the Divine Times. Now, many people come up to me when I talk about Knowledge and they say, 'GMJ, we think that those people who are suffering , they need food, shelter and clothing first, rather than your Knowledge.' And probably it is true to some extent, because they need that. If someone is hungry and we tell him to sit and do meditation, and try to concentrate on God, he will say, 'O God, don't give me peace, but give me food first.' So if we just give them Knowledge it's no good, because again people are not being helped. Why not? I have just explained that to you. But if we open this organization, and socially help people, see, it will be beautiful, because today, if we just give a house to someone, he will need a car in the house tomorrow, and the the second day he will need air conditioning in the car, then next he will need headrests in the car, and then he will just need everything. But before the point can be reached where his desires become endless, before that point will be able to be reached, there will be a stop to it, by the Knowledge, because Knowledge will also be revealed to them, and their desires will be under their control. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 21:14:36 (EDT)
From: barney Email: None To: Marianne Subject: DUO wasn't it '74 Message: I wasn't a premie in April of '73, but I remember seeing the film where he establishes DUO and I think that was in the spring of '74. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 21:18:38 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: barney Subject: Nope, '73 Message: Barney: When I read this article, I had the same reaction. I remember seeing the video in the spring of '74. But I have the Divine Times here with April 1, 1973, and one of the articles is about Bob Mishler signing the contract for Houston for Millenium. So, I guess it took a long time for the video to seep down to the masses, especially in light of all the energy spent on Houston. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 22:13:09 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Circulation was slow Message: In the old day, the films were slow to circulate. I think I saw Family of Love and Who is Guru Maharaj Ji about ten times each because there was nothing new. I can still see that swan turn into MJ. My shrink has swans all over his walls and he gets me to talk to an empty chair while pretending MJ is sitting there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 23:06:07 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Gail Subject: Circulation was slow Message: Gail: Hi Gail. Yeah, they needed something to circulate after the debacle of Houston. I never saw it til '74 myself. I don't recall reading this stuff about DUO when I got this newsletter. Does your shrink give you a bat to beat some pillows too? Swans all over. It'd make me a bit paranoid if I'd just gotten out. Do you remember DOW? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 23:12:08 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Circulation was slow Message: There were rumours of it at the ashram when I first got involved but I wasn't buying. I liked the men until I was properly programmed! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 02:05:31 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Some of the Dates Message: Hi Marianne & Barney, Following are the some of EV's entity dates as filed in Colorado. There was quite a flurry of withdrawals or some kind of change filed on many of the entities 10/20/1997. Any guesses to the 97 date folks? 09/28/1971 DIVINE LIGHT MISSION, INC 04/24/1973 DIVINE OFFICE SYSTEMS 05/04/1973 DIVINE ORGANIZATION OF WOMEN 05/07/1973 DIVINE SERVICES INC 05/09/1973 SHRI HANS HUMANITARIAN SERVICES 05/09/1973 DIVINE UNITED ORGANIZATION 06/05/1973 AKASHIC RECORDS 06/05/1973 SHRI HANS RECORDS 08/27/1973 DIVINE SECURITY AGENCY 08/27/1973 DIVINE DISTRIBUTIONS 09/20/1973 SHRI HANS SERVICE COMPANY 09/20/1973 DIVINE SERVICES 10/24/1973 SHRI HANS FILM PRODUCTIONS 12/31/1973 SHRI HANS MUSIC PUBLISHING 02/14/1974 SHRI HANS TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM 03/05/1974 SHRI HANS GRAPHICS 03/05/1974 DIVINE ORGANIZATION OF WOMEN (Withdrawn date) 06/19/1974 CITY OF LOVE AND LIGHT UNLIMITED 04/30/1975 UNITY SCHOOL 04/14/1976 DUO INTERNATIONAL 01/16/1979 SHIP 02/22/1983 DIVINE LIGHT MISSION (Name change to Elan Vital) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 14:02:43 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Mary M Subject: Some of the Dates Message: Mary: Isn't it interesting that the only organization to be 'withdrawn' was DOW? No feminists need apply, huh? Boy, someone got a bug up their butt. Notice that there is no entry for the Women's Spiritual Welfare Assoc. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 14:05:13 (EDT)
From: barney Email: None To: Marianne Subject: shoulda been called DOA! (nt) Message: asdf Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 14:10:37 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: barney Subject: shoulda been called DOA! Message: Barney: How right you are! I get so sick of these premies telling me to get a life. Whenever they do that, I feel compelled to tell them what I do for a living. If I was still in the cult, I wouldn't have a life. Have you cast your vote for M to get the Nobel Peace Prize, as Premie suggested below? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 08:24:18 (EDT)
From: Klaus Email: None To: barney Subject: DUO wasn't it '74 Message: Oh yeah, that's from real importance!!! God, That's 25 year ago and long gone. Where is it??? What difference does it make? Hey guys, what are doing with your life?? We're living NOW!!! Yesterdays gone, will never come back. That's wonderful. Always ready to start a new life!!! I love it. Poor souls, don't get lost in your mind! May be there is somebody to teach you something! Open your eyes and try to learn! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 14:06:58 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Klaus Subject: I have a life Message: I defend people on death row. What do you do, Klaus? Don't tell me to get a life! I never would have been able to be an attorney had I stayed in the ashram. It was nearly impossible to go to college if you lived there and needed Maharaji's ok. You missed the meaning of the post entirely. I guess Maharaji doesn't meditate very much because he certainly wasn't cured of desires for material things, was he? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 16:46:03 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Klaus Subject: DUO wasn't it '74 Message: Yo Klaus, Did you notice the date 10/20/1997.... I even typed it out for you in Y2K compliant format. So what went down in 1997 as far as the re-imaging by Pastor Rawat's professional corporate jugglers? M Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 16:57:51 (EDT)
From: barney Email: None To: Mary M Subject: 1997? buy gulfstream when? Message: Mary, When did they purchase the Gulfstream? I wonder if that has something to do with it? That's a big ticket item no matter how many Challengers and gliders you trade up. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 17:58:15 (EDT)
From: Mary m Email: None To: barney Subject: 1997? buy gulfstream when? Message: Hi Barney, The transaction for the Gulfstream has been buried quite well. From what I've read of Alvaro's vitae, it appears he's quite an achiever in his areas of law. As you know, aviation is one of his areas of expertise and I must say he's done a 'darn good job' if he was involved in the transaction. Don't faint PWKs, yes I really do take my hat off to some of the more talented grifters within the Church of Elan Vital. Mary Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 23:01:49 (EDT)
From: A Premie Email: dust@lotus_feet.com To: Marianne Subject: K ends material desires: M Message: Are you guys still at it, still living in the past? Don't you know that Maharaji is new and improved, these days. He's evolved, don't you know. Look, just start participating again and withinn a few months of regularly watching his videos, you'll be allowed back into the fold again and will get invites to Elan Vital participation meetings. It's all modern, clean and new now. Don't live in the past, get a life! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 23:07:59 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: A Premie Subject: K ends material desires: M Message: Your email says it all: dust at lotus feet. Not for me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 23:31:35 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Marianne Subject: K ends material desires: M Message: Oh, Dave quit yankin' our chains :-) Suppose yer powerman too, huh? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 23:37:41 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Gerry Subject: So Gerry... Message: did M quell all your material desires? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 23:49:17 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Marianne Subject: So Gerry... Message: Hi Marianne, I was posting to Dave (A Premie) and I'm happy to answer your query. did M quell all your material desires? HELL NO!ps You probably didn't read my exploits in the basement of the Phoenix ashram, did ya? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 23:53:48 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Marianne Subject: slight correction Message: Not basement, but utility room. There wasn't basement at the Phoenix ashram. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 00:03:19 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Gerry Subject: slight correction Message: Gerry: No, I did not. Where can I find them? Did you know premies in Tucson in '74 or later? A bunch of premies from Columbus moved there. I visited both places in '75. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 00:25:27 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Marianne Subject: slight correction Message: I was in Tucson right before Millenium. I stayed at a premie house there which was owned by the parents of a young woman from El Paso. I can't remember her name but she caught me in flagantro (is that the right word, Rob?) with a premie sister IN THE GARAGE! Poor thing was mortified, trying to live the hamster's hypocritical lifestyle. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 12:08:22 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Gerry Subject: the tampon incident Message: Is that when you yanked a sister's tampon out and threw it at a furnace in the throes of passion? I'm glad someone was having fun back then. Premie men were the most passion-less men I ever had the pleasure to 'know' in the biblical sense Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 12:32:21 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Gerry Subject: & I was no prize either... Message: in the passion department, I'm sure! With our minds constantly fixated to the feet of our Master, we were the distracted preoccupied guilt-filled lovers of truth back then. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 09:40:19 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Gerry Subject: K ends material desires: M Message: No, Powerman isn't me. It's probably Jim. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 00:08:30 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: A Premie Subject: Ha Ha Ha Message: Hi Premie, There really is nothing new under the sun. His spin meisters are pretty good with you lemmings. Truly the motto for the new and improved 'Private Investors' followers should be, 'Ignorance is Bliss' Best to you, Mary M Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 09:44:25 (EDT)
From: A Premie Email: None To: Mary M Subject: Ha Ha Ha Message: I can see you never understood Maharaji. You'll laugh on the other side of your face when Maharaji is given the Nobel Peace Prize for services to humanity. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 12:54:27 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: A Premie Subject: M-Nobel Prize? NOT! Message: Premie: Who are you to say whether I understood M or not? Do you know me? Do I know you? If so, tell me. Otherwise, you're out of your league. The writer George Santanaya once said: 'Those who forget the past are condenmned to repeat it.' A sign with that saying hung over Jim Jones' chair in Jonestown while he presided over the mass suicide. The fact that premies are getting all bent out of shape about this information being posted is very telling. No one's stuck in the past. We're trying to keep people who want to avoid getting stuck in the cult from jumping in in the first place. M's true past is right here, and can't be explained away. These are his words and deeds at the time they occurred. He and EV are trying to say these things never occurred, that he never called himself God. Well, that's flat out wrong. You don't want to read about it, ignore it and deal with the consequences. As for M being given the Nobel Peace Prize, now that takes the cake. That's the kind of stuff we used to say right before Millenium, back in '73. Were you around then? I think not. Read up, premie. You have a lot to learn. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 12:12:47 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Marianne Subject: M-Nobel Prize? NOT! Message: I think 'A Premie' must be a joke. It must be someone like JW joking. M will win the 'fucked with millions' minds ' prize maybe, but never a humanitarian prize. Please, JW, say that it's you messing with us! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 20:17:37 (EDT)
From: A Premie Email: None To: Helen Subject: M-Nobel Prize? NOT! Message: I'm not JW. Notice how now that Maharaji's power is manifesting again, the war in Kosovo is coming to an end. NATO will think that they did it but we know who is behind the real peace process. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 14:02:56 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek Email: None To: A Premie Subject: check this out! Message: Nobel prize for services to humanity? That would make Maharaji a Humanitarian Leader. That's interesting because at Roger's House of Maharaji Drek there is an Opinion Poll that has various choices as to what people think Maharaji is. Amongst the choices are: Humanitarian Leader Master Fraud There have been about 322 responses and 49% consider Maharaji as Master which tells me that premies are voting their opinions. However, Humanitarian Leader has exactly ZERO! What exactly has Maharaji ever done for Humanity? All that I see is that he has created an organization and businesses that funnel huge amounts of money to him so that he can live in a fashion that completely insulates him from the real, stinky dirty world that all of us live in. He's so out of touch that he makes the grocery store scanner ignorant George Bush look common and ordinary. Did you ever hear the '90s satsang from him where Maharaji is talking about people sitting on the grass in a park? He goes on to say that HE wouldn't sit on that grass because He knows that it's dirty. Up there at the Malibu Marble & Gold Palace Maharaji's got premies with toothbrushes cleaning each blade of grass in the remote possibility that Maharaji might want to rest his ass on the grass. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 14:44:03 (EDT)
From: A Premie Email: dust@lotus_feet.com To: Roger E. Drek Subject: M's services to humanity Message: Well he got a load of spaced out, unwashed hippies off the streets, for a start. Also, he stopped Jim talking about Dawkins for a decade and his anti meat eating philosophy has been a great help to the animal rights campaigners. Also his contributions to the aviation industry and watch industries are legend. I suppose you're so out of touch that you didn't realise that Maharaji was an inventor. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 14:50:38 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: A Premie Subject: M-Legendary Inventor? NOT! Message: Are you really a premie or are you joking? Your post could be read that way, and it does actually. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 00:05:22 (EDT)
From: A disgusted observer Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Premie s ARE a sad joke Message: It seems to me that premie == joker. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 15:47:54 (EDT)
From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: A Premie Subject: M's services to humanity Message: Not to mention that Maharaji saved Malibu from being destroyed by fire and if it weren't for him, we would still be having a Cold War, because he was the one who brought down the Soviet Union, by his grace. He is also responsible for all the peace we experience in this world, but it is crazy humans in their minds who are responsible for all the war, famine, atrocities, disease, and the inability to find a decent parking space. Also, Maharaji single-handedly invented the internet in his spare time and he is very successful investor in water filters and books. If it weren't for him, humanity would be unable to feed itself and the pits in avocados would be twice the size they are today. Why, I heard that Maharaji even offered refugees from Kosovo to live in tents on his property in Amaroo, Australia, if they could get themselves there and as long as they didn't bother him. He is SUCH a humanitarian it makes me want to cry. We are unworthy to breathe the same air he breathes. I think the premies should buy him another Rolls Royce just to make his heavy burden a little easier. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 15:48:18 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek Email: None To: A Premie Subject: M's services to humanity Message: First of all, I was never a dirty stinking hippie, god forbid! Born and raised in the Hamptons and Palm Beach. Educated at Harvard and Oxford. And now living in Malibu, amongst other well known locales. Oh, I'm quite aware of Maharaji's inventions. He's quite creative, indeed. You are correct that Maharaji's contributions to the Swiss watch industry are legend. Apparently, Maharaji receives full credit for getting the trains in Italy to, once again, run on time. Maharaji's inventions used by the aviation industry have saved countless lives. If I understand correctly Maharaji receives no money for these inventions and the money, instead, goes straight to a non-profit educational organization. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 16:05:12 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: A Premie Subject: M's services to humanity Message: HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.... The watch industry, oh premie, you truly are zonkers. Are you certain that you're not a cartoon character. Glad to know the priceless heirloom watch I was conned out of did some good for the dip-shit guru of the millenium. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 12:51:29 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: A Premie Subject: GERRY....It's Gerry!!!!! Message: Gotcha! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 16:00:42 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: A Premie Subject: Ha Ha Ha Message: Right Premie, And he's apolotical so you all say. HA HA HA. M knows full way that just about 97% of the human race CAN BE BOUGHT! Tell me, premie, will Mahatma Hammerhand Fakiranand and Mahatma Jagdeo the Molestor be invited? Clap, Clap, Clap Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 21:50:24 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: A Premie Subject: Yeah Right! Message: Pull the other leg it's got bells on! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 11:10:39 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: A Premie Subject: BWAH HA HA HA HA HA! Message: AP: Nobel Prize? Read the REQUIRMENTS for said prize before you make such a stupid statement again! He has done absolutely nothing of a humanitarian nature and to compare him to people that have actually dedicated their lives to that pursuit is an incredible insult to those that deserve the prize. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 15:34:40 (EDT)
From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: A Premie Subject: K ends material desires: M Message: It's just so beautiful to read your post, A Premie, you can see that more and more that grace is just flowing in this world, if we practice that knowledge, experience that love and have that understanding of that gift which is that breath in this life in this world. In the past there still was that grace and that experience, but now Maharaji has made it so simple to experience that gift which is that love by that grace but we must have that thirst. In fact, Maharaji has an entire series of 'books' that you can get through Visions by that grace, in which he explains why that thirst is so important for that love and to have that experience. Everything Maharaji does is because he loves us so much and is so kind, so kind and good. Glenn Whittacker just reported that Maharaji's golden body was even more golden in Argentina because he had a beautiful, golden, perfect tan. I nearly peed my pants just imagining that blissful form of the most perfect lord. It really makes me so appreciative of being given the opportunity, by this grace, to participate, like at the last 'event' when I was allowed to stand in front of a door and prevent people from going through for no apparent reason. It was so blissful, by his grace and really allowed me to surrender in service, I mean have participate from a place of gratitude and to experience that love. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 15:53:16 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek Email: None To: Pauline Premie Subject: not a tan, radiation burn Message: No, that wasn't a tan. Maharaji is too busy working everyday to spread his imperfect Knowledge. What appeared to be a tan was a radiation burn from flying to close to the sun. Apparently, the skies are not that friendly. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 16:53:25 (EDT)
From: cp Email: None To: Roger E. Drek Subject: Dear 'Premie' Message: Please, continue with what you would like us to know. I for one want to hear what you want to say. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 19:04:26 (EDT)
From: A Premie Email: None To: Pauline Premie Subject: That reminds me... Message: Your post reminds me of that song, 'Maharaji Maharaji, your face shines like a thousand suns. You have given us all we could ask for, peace and bliss and harmony.' Every day I walk his golden way and live to see him smile. I'm due to inherit quite a lot of money soon and when I post him my personal cheque for about $100,000 I'm sure that will make him smile. Maharaji is so loving because he knows that it's just as loving to accept a gift as to give one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 19:24:33 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: A Premie Subject: Your a crazy bastard Message: Why not just burn it? He will. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 19:57:58 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: A Premie Subject: That reminds me... Message: Lookin forward to that inheritance eh lad/lassie? No skin off our nose if you choose to: 'Piss against the wind' Be honest premie, is this a gift to the Church or the Educational Foundation? May we rest assured you've consulted with an attorney specializing in 'Inheritance Tax Write Offs';-) You really do make me laugh! Mary Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 20:00:28 (EDT)
From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: A Premie Subject: That reminds me... Message: Oh, yes. Remember that song, sung by that beautiful British premie with the super, super high voice? I think it was called 'Golden Way.' And though we try every day To walk your golden way Only by his grace By his mercy May we approach you. Doesn't that just say it like it really is in that love, that peace that truth and that experience? You seem to really have that understanding that it's just such a gift to be able to give something to Maharaji. Not that he needs it -- it's for us to be able to give everything we have to Maharaji. I also sold my house and gave all the money to the lotus feet. It was so blissful that he gave me the gift of that opportunity to serve him. Although I now live on the streets, it doesn't matter because I have that experience, that knowledge and that understanding. Without his grace, his gift, his love and his knowledge, a human being is nothing more valuable than a painful, rectal itch. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 20:03:39 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: A Premie Subject: Touche' Message: Ok A Premie. You pulled one over on me! Ha hahahaha. Nothing like good, misdirected anger. You really got me with the Nobel Peace Prize. Good work. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 20:07:41 (EDT)
From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Touche' Message: Well I never. I am MUCH more inspiring, by his grace of course, than A Premie. Hmmmmph. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 20:09:12 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Pauline Premie Subject: Touche' Message: No Pauline, for you we have douche'! I think A Premie is pulling our collective legs. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 20:25:40 (EDT)
From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Touche' Message: A premie would never 'pull someone's leg,' collectively or otherwise. Premies are humorless, you know. Humor is something of the crazy world, and the antithesis of that love, that truth, that joy, that peace and that experience. Unless of course, Maharaji makes a funny, then it is golden glorious humor and worthy of the divine sense of joy, because it is coming from the holy, pure place of that love, that truth, that joy, that that that that that that that that that ARRRRGHHHHH----- GET ME OUT OF THIS CULT!!!!!! TED PATRICK WHERE ARE YOU WHEN I NEED YOU???? That love, that truth, lotus feet, perfect master, god, meditation teacher, that knowledge, understanding ARRRRRGHHH!!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 22:55:46 (EDT)
From: Curly Email: None To: Pauline Premie Subject: M's donations Message: Actually I do remember Maharaji donating funds to my school back in 1985. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 23:24:18 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Curly Subject: M's donations Message: Curly: What school was that? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 23:42:47 (EDT)
From: Curly Email: None To: Marianne Subject: M's donations Message: The Stephen Hawking School of Costmetology as a matter of fact. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 23:51:25 (EDT)
From: Curly Email: None To: Curly Subject: M's donations Message: I meant The Stephen Hawking School of Cosmetology not costmetology Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 23:52:05 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Curly Subject: Steven Hawking Message: Did M really donate money? Liz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 23:57:50 (EDT)
From: Curly Email: None To: Liz Subject: Steven Hawking Message: LIke I said, to The Stephen Hawking School of Cosmetology in downtown Brooklyn. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 00:31:21 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Curly Subject: Steven Hawking Message: Costmetology or cosmetology or cometology, I doubt he's give a dime to any of them. Oh you are so frisky, Curly. Here's a dutch rub to straighten you out! nnNNNNNNNN..... Marianne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 00:47:11 (EDT)
From: Curly Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Final post for today Message: WOOOP WOOP WOOOP WOOOP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 12:39:05 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Curly Subject: Final post for today Message: Why I oughta!! That was pretty funny, n'yuk n'yuk !! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 12:36:29 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Pauline Premie Subject: Touche' Message: stop, you're killing me here!! BWA HA HA Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 13:18:09 (EDT)
From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: Helen Subject: Touche' Message: Helen, you are such a confused ex-premie who does not have that understanding of that love, that truth, that joy and that experience of that knowledge or that master. Maybe someday you will get in touch with that thirst of that heart and listen to what that heart is yearning for, which is that love that is only from Maharaji. As I am sure you know, without that love, that knowlegdge, that gift of that breath, we are nothing more than the brown scum that forms under the rims of toilets or perhaps the white film that forms on dog excrement that has been sitting in the sun. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 13:49:05 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Pauline Premie Subject: You saved me, PP Message: Oh Pauline, the most amazing thing just happened to me. As I washed my carpet using the rented Electrolux carpet cleaner, the form of Guru Maharaji appeared in the soapy surface of the carpet. The apparition of my former Guru miraculoulsy appeared upon my carpet! His face took on a golden glow that seemed to say 'that love, that thirst, that feeling', and 14 + years of ex-premiehood slipped away and I was but a virgin bride of Maharaji's once more (well not a virgin in that way, I was a bit of a loose one in my former years, but you know, that feeling of purity, of all my doubts being washed away). I pranamed into the wet carpet and ruined my best housedress but I don't care. So my heart is pure once more and now I just read your satsang and I see that I was in my mind for 16 years. My God, I have to get to a program. And to think , it must be His Lila that I rented that carpet cleaner today. Ha ha I am giddy like Doris Day singing on a mountaintop 'I'm gonna shout it from the highest hills, I'll even tell the golden daffodils!!' Thank you Pauline, dear sister!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 15:49:03 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Helen Subject: You saved me, PP Message: Follow all JW's instructions for being a long time ex, and you will get into a program. then, you can return to the forum, just like shp, and tell us about that love, and the dog execrement too. I don't know how you guys do it. I don't think I could give even quasi satsang if my life depended on it. I cackled at the top of my lungs over these last passages. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 17:47:09 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Marianne Subject: You saved me, PP Message: Jim gave me satsang one time and it blew my mind to see how it was a rhetorical trick. It kind of made me sad because now when I listen to preachers I see how they get the crowd all Jesus-ed up by the speech rhythms, etc. I used to really enjoy listening to black preachers but now it has all changed. I'm not kidding. I also used to love gospel music too, but can't listen to it too much anymore for the same reason. Maybe I'll get my spirit back, but the deprogramming's been rough here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |