Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 51 | |
From: Jun 5, 1999 |
To: Jun 14, 1999 |
Page: 5 Of: 5 |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 03:42:31 (EDT)
From: barney Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Banishment and eXistenZ Message: Sheesh! I get back from seeing David Cronenberg's eXistenZ with Jennifer Jason-Leigh, Jude Law, and my favorite, Willem Dafoe. It's left me a little disturbed but nowhere as bad as when I saw Cronenberg's Naked Lunch and the scene where Judy Davis, wife of junkie Bill Lee, (aka William S. Burroughs) injects insecticide into her breast and overdoses. I still have the complete mental picture of the junkies uh, er, milking those strange goat-like animals for their, uh, er, drug. Cronenberg uses a lot of strange flesh-like devices. Well, now that I've grossed everyone out we can done to business, a business that I'm not sure is appropriate because some things that the Webmaster does are trade secrets. Ok, so I booted Government Inspector (G.I.) off the Forum last night. My two posts (which I repeat much of here) are in the Inactive Index and are: Smoke 'em if ya got 'em, G.I. and furthermore I probably wouldn't be writing this, but G.I. emailed me and insisted that I post his email(s) which I'll do as follow-ups to this post. Rather than operate in a cloak of secrecy I'm electing to make public these emails and my thinking. Certainly, here is the opportunity for everyone to add their input on this situation and past situations and, unfortunately, future situations. I believe that the central issue is the purpose and intent of the Forum and it's decorum. I've been active in the Forum for at least one year and a lurker for some time previous to that. The Forum helped free me of Maharaji's cult after being involved for nearly twenty five years. It has been said that the Forum has these purposes in this order (and maybe I'm adding one or two, I don't know) 1. The Forum is for Ex-Premies to heal themselves by venting or sharing with others. 2. The Forum is for Premies who are considering leaving Maharaji and is a place to ask questions or simply read. I would suggest that they peruse all available information first to get a background. 3. The Forum is for Aspirants who are considering further involvement with Maharaji. 4. The Forum is for the general public and the family and friends of active premies or aspirants. Again, I would advise that these people also read all available information first before jumping into the Forum. 5. The Forum is for active Premies to enter into debate and discussion regarding our beliefs versus their beliefs. For a background of the Forum rules please refer to Forum Introduction. Ok, that list is how I see the purposes of the Forum. Again, the first priority is for those who have broken free from Maharaji and the last is for those who have not left Maharaji's Knowledge and might never do so. It's pretty obvious that it gets pretty heated and even downright ugly when the first group, the Ex-Premies, clash with the last group, the hardcore Premies. And, the volatile exchanges can be viewed as disturbing by those in any of the categories aforementioned. There's a bit of a dilemma here where one can imagine a deprogramming session where the subject has actually been kidnapped and locked in a motel for days on end and continuously grilled and beaten down until they break. At least that's my vision of deprogramming and I imagine that it is not a pleasant conversational exchange. I think we all know just how deeply the cult indoctrination can be. So, I see some of that happening in the heated exchanges. As ugly as it gets, it might just be part of the way out of the cult. Fortunately or unfortunately depending on your perspective, the practicing premie can log off to stop the deprogramming at their whim. So, what we've got with the Ex-Premies going at it with the hardcore Premies is what might be self-elective online deprogramming. Or so it would seem. Actually, I think that we've seen premies come and get into discussion that starts getting into deprogramming and the premies eventually realizes that they cannot and will not leave Maharaji and they abort the process, but they still hang around. Yet, some in their hanging around are like flies caught on fly paper and can't break loose. They like the discourse. They like the challenge. They like the heated debates. It is a jihad for their Lord. And the same is true with some of the Ex-Premies. However, there is a difference and that difference is that this is the website of the Ex-Premie.Org and this is our home, this is our turf and when it gets down to it we refuse to lose. Also, I believe that many of us have a sense of purpose to counter Maharaji's efforts to lure and keep more people into his cult. And that clearly falls within the objectives of Ex-Premie.Org and the other websites, as well. And because this is the Ex-Premie.Org and we refuse to lose it's going to be a lopsided match where the Premies can never ever win - it ain't gonna happen. So, I believe that the Premie either sees the imminent defeat and the futility of their efforts and surrenders to it and disengages and eventually leaves. No shame, no blame - just the way it is. However, human nature is distributed in a bell curve and there will be people who cannot admit defeat and who will not leave and they might harbor deep resentments towards their perceived enemies and adopt a guerilla style warfare in an effort to bait and humiliate their enemies. And, in my opinion, they become generally disruptive and add little valid content. Ok, I gotta let the cat out of the bag I can't stand it anymore. That person, G.I. is none other than shp. I've known it for some time and have been watching with amusement for some time. It's been such a great temptation to tell Jim. Fear not, but I've have not disgraced my webmaster oath. I've seen shp snipe and bait Jim and others. Of course, the final straw was when he jumped on my good friend, Roger E. Drek ;) Frankly, I don't give a damn and neither does Roger. In looking at the situation I was seeing that shp was really not providing much Maharaji related content and that he was no longer interested in any honest Maharaji related discussion, but his purpose was a personal vendetta against Jim and maybe a few others and he was just being disruptive with nasty name calling. You bet there's a double standard here! Damn right! The Ex-Premies will, as long as I'm webmaster (until next week ;) ), always get the benefit of the doubt and the second and third chance. Why? Because this is Ex-Premie.Org, plain and simple. Compare this to what you get in Maharaji's world. You don't get nothing at all. Sure, you got CD's Premies and Friends Forum and www.premie.org chatroom, but other than that there's no discussion in Maharaji's cyberworld or his real world. Not only was shp as I saw it baiting and sniping, but he was posting under way too many handles. Sure, I'm guilty of that. My evil twin demanded and got his own handle. I post under a bogus handle for comedy and I also do when I'm posting information that might lead old premie friends from linking a personal detail that I disclose to me. However, the way I see it shp came to his new handle(s) out of desperation because shp had acquired too much ill will to be of use anymore. Here look at what the real shp posted under the Happy Birthday, Gerry thread: Happy Birthday, Gerry! :) What are we talking about here? A wolf in sheep's clothing? Also, consider that Gerry and shp are bitter enemies. Here is shp playing his sweet side lying through his teeth while his other side is doing the fuck you stuff. Sorry, but this is blatant deceit and I'm not going to sit here like it isn't happening. What else can I say? I'd like to say why can't we all just get along, but I know that we probably won't and that's the way it is. Maybe we can try to keep the name calling down and avoid people who we don't get along with like we do in the real world. Yet, I know why we're all here and that's because of our ex-Lord Maharaji. If it wasn't for him we be doing something else, but no doubt we feel strongly about him or what happened to us when we were fully involved. It was a very unique and strange experience that very few people go through. We need each other to try to fully understand what happened to us and get our lives back on track if that's the case. This is a good place with lots of good intelligent people. Let's not forget that and let's always try to keep it that way. So, I walk the line here. Absolutely, free speech or trying to make this a nice safe and relatively pleasant place for the Ex-Premies? Unless I hear otherwise when in doubt I'm going with the latter. Thanks barney Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 03:48:31 (EDT)
From: barney Email: None To: barney Subject: shp email #1 Message: 'Email me when you think you can think that you can steer clear of Jim and have something to say.' So you say. I have been doing to him what he has done to myself and others. This is how you deal with people who act like Jim, but don't agree with your view of Maharaji. You throw us out. Whoever doesn't see a double standard here is blind, no offense to the physically sightless. Time to let you know that, I Shp, have been: GI ~ Jim said maybe I knew him better than he knew himself, among other things... baiting me, perhaps, but he was right for a change. Veteran of Holy War ~ dialog with Mary, not bad Rico Suave ~ Made some folks laugh and lighten up and enjoy the evening Bible Thumper ~ Made a little sense, no response to date Duckman ~ Common sense Prize Patrol ~ Comic relief Canned Yak ~ More comic releif Gail's Angel ~ Hopefully made Gail feel a little better and look on the sunny side and maybe go to Florida and chill out with a friend. And I gotcha! Billy Burke got close, even guessed it was me a few times...I guess it takes a multiple-name poster to know one. So my true identity is out a little earlier than I intended, and that's great! I hope you have the Gastro-Intensinal fortritude to post this whole e-mail on the site and you don't try to revise history, as you accuse others. Nothing was done in malice. I stand by every word I said under every name. The humor of course is not to be taken literally. What inspired me to do this were a few things: 1) Jim's 'broken man' post for which you should have locked him out like you just did me (as GI.) You definitely have a pretty obvious double standard around here, from my direct experience. If a premie said 'fuck off', 'fuckface', 'fuck you', or anything else with 'fuck' in it as often as Jim did, they'd be gone fast. If any premie went for throats the way Jim does, they'd be gone soon. Maybe you can't see it, and I'm not crying or exaggerating. As a matter of fact, I'm feeling pretty good right now. Your Jimperor is naked too in all his bombast and vulgarity. His shit is so pervasive that it hampers communication between premies and non-premies, from my direct experience. You love him for his brute strength anger veiled by his intellect and vocabulary and you tolerate his crap. 2) The thing Jesus said about 'turning the other cheek' does not mean to get hammered on both sides of one's face. It really means if someone isn't taking to you, show them another side of your personality'. (And Mickey, you can stuff your doubts about my interpretation because I KNOW it's so. Keep the books man, the letter kills and the spirit gives life.) 3) I wanted to continue to communicate with some of yas. 4) It was all worth it if Gail feels better. 5) All premies don't fit in one mold, just as exers don't.. I look forward to hearing from you and seeing this on the site, so everybody knows the score. Not that I need the attention, just to have it ALL out in the open. In brotherly love, even though we disagree about Maharaji, Shp Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 03:51:17 (EDT)
From: barney Email: None To: barney Subject: shp email #2 Message: Why don't you post my last e-mail to you? Puts it all on the table. Are you out or avoiding me? Power corrupts, eh, WEBMASTER? Now you are holding the ring of power. Let's see what you do with it. So far, you are pretty lame. That banning of GI aka Shp was not righteous If I say so myself . Sincerely, Shp, aka Veteran of Holy War Rico Suave GI Bible Thuimper Gail's Angel Prize Patrol Canned Yak Dept. Wonderfulman Duckman maybe more... see, I can do it too and quite convincingly. Only Mick and Bill had a clue. Two way street. Now do you want to allow freedom of speech or be a little Napoleon around here? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 04:07:59 (EDT)
From: barney Email: None To: barney Subject: can't resist! Message: shp, Gee, sorry. I was out at the movies. I've got a life, you know. Interesting to see in your second email after not getting my immediate attention from your first email how your pleasant demeanor changed and you became quite rude and started the name calling. How quickly we forget about brotherly love when our demands are not instantly satisfied. You reveal much about yourself as others have previously noted. Now do you want to allow freedom of speech or be a little Napoleon around here? No, you're the one who's exiled here. Sure, they'll get me later, but I'm doing my best for now to get rid of the riff-raff and the disrupters. Honestly, I really had no intention of booting you, shp. In the beginning I was supportive of your quest. When it really got hot I mostly avoided the discussion except for maybe once or twice when I suggested that you read the writing on the wall and leave voluntarily. But now, you've set a good example of what not to do. Freedom of speech? Technically, there is no such thing. There are limits as this country's judicial has made clear. There is no right to post at Ex-Premie.Org. Instead, it is a privilege that is extended and withdrawn when one becomes a complete nuisance and violates too many of the rules. Adios Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 15:02:16 (EDT)
From: barney (tiring of this) Email: None To: barney Subject: shp email #3 Message: Hey Barn, At least you did not eidt my words, gotta give you that. I've done nothing that you or other exers haven't done in extremis yourselves. Gezz, you even have a link to Maharaji's 'clubhouse' right on the front page of your 'clubhouse, against his wishes, just for starters. Why are you constantly messing with his clubhouse? And for what? Only to boost your own game. And maybe you sincerely think you are doing good in the world for it, and maybe I think the same of my actions. The truth is independent of our own personal opinions. I'd say we are both right some and both wrong some. I'm not doing any of this in M's direct defense. I have been freely and independently communicating with those of you who wish to for the sake of human communication and contact with others who have had a similar experience (M/K) as I have, but came out with different results. Natural curiosity. Then, with all the strong personality types around (myself included), things got wierd. The only difference is that you shelter and defend your own for doing the same damn shit that I have done and been banished for. This is fundamentally wrong in most any organization's book. Why don't you post this e-mail too and see what kind of feedback you get from your own buds. NOTHING I have done (multiple post, 'lie-fib' a little, curse and swear and namecall for flavor - for poetic license, not as a habit - etc) is foreign to your own buddies' methods. Hey, whatever. I'm not going to lose any sleep over this either way, believe me. I sincerely hope Gail does feel better and goes to Miami and hangs with Mary. In the midst of all this bullshit, Gail shined out as someone very vulnerable and hurt, and I wanted to reach out to her however I could and try to make her feel better across the chasm of differneces and misundertandings, incidents and accidents. So, for a brief moment, I became her angel and tried to help her. Hope it did help. It's all about love, not words. You are trying to parent your flock. I don't think you will get a consensus that ex-premies want to be parented by their webmaster. Check it out. For the record, I think that although some of the issues addressed here may well be true and appear terribly unjust, Maharaji is still a Master who reveals the Knowledge of all Knowledges, and has brought it to more people around the world than ever before. I still think you were waiting for the Disney version, or Jeffery Hunter in technicolor. Sorry, this is real life on earth. If I ran into you, Jim, gerry (not a bitter enemy, by the way) or anyone else on the street and discovered our identities, I'd probably want to sit down and have a little visit and get to know you better face to face. It's always different face to face than cyberspace, said the poet to the webmaster. And more would get accomplished in that say, I bet. So you do what you gotta do, Barney. It's all the same to me. So far, you are obviously new and inexperienced at wielding power. I'm used to helping folks like you through stuff like this, no hard feelings or offense taken. And there will not be a steady stream of e-mail to you that I expect to have posted in order to circumvent the block. I am just responding to your latest thread. Let's see you put this one up too, then check out the feedback. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 15:28:03 (EDT)
From: barney Email: None To: barney (tiring of this) Subject: shp email #3 Message: Gezz, you even have a link to Maharaji's 'clubhouse' right on the front page of your 'clubhouse, against his wishes Oh, I didn't know that Maharaji didn't want us to link to him. We were just trying to help out. shp, I appreciate your concern and desire to help others. However, it is entirely misplaced and misdirected here. I know that you would never admit to this, but your hidden agenda is to proselytize on Maharaji's behalf. You view yourself as some learned saint, yet your anger betrays you. This has all been said many times by others and I'm tired of it. Maybe you could help others by doing some volunteer work instead of what you've been doing here. To be honest your desire to help Gail is kinda weird to me. Maybe you should just email her directly if you haven't already. One thing that you've done that Jim has rarely done, if ever, is post under different names. And this is one of the reasons you've been blocked. It's a source of confusion. I imagine you putting on your cape and sitting down in front of your computer and coming up with your characters in an effort to lighten up the forum (e.g.. Rico Suave) and help us. Come on, shp, that's getting a little out there. Sure, some of the ex-premies do that, but their agenda and yours are diametrically opposed. You are trying to endear yourself in order to pounce later with your agenda. the flock - no, I don't think so. You're playing with semantics to paint me as something evil. I think that the general consensus is that we are tired of the excessive name-calling and sniping. And, yes, as I've said before there is a double standard here. shp, you've been dishonest with us. This is the end, your only friend. No more, please. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 01:59:19 (EDT)
From: Red Email: None To: barney Subject: shp email #3 Message: I think censorship sucks, and if you don't like the guy or whatever, don't read his posts. It's not like there's a shortage of space. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 13:33:47 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: Red Subject: about blocking Message: dear Red - You wrote: I think censorship sucks, and if you don't like the guy or whatever, don't read his posts. It's not like there's a shortage of space. As you probably know if you've been around for a while, I'm a great proponent of the 'if you don't like the guy, don't read his posts', approach. However, I support Barney in blocking shp, because Sandy (shp) has made this selective reading impossible by posting under ten or more screen names. It's true that some of these names were used to post lighthearted messages, and I don't really have a problem with that. However, in my opinion, shp used some of the other names PRECISELY to get around that fact that people were not reading his posts (for example, the series of 'GI' posts). Brian and I once blocked a guy (who shall remain nameless) for flooding the forum with posts. We unblocked the guy under condition that he post under his own screen name. He did this for a while, but then he started posting all over the place again using a variety of different names, so he got blocked again. As Barney said, posting on the forum is not a 'right', it's a responsibility. Because of the way the forum is set up, everyone gets the opportunity to post here in the beginning, no matter what their views or posting approaches are (we don't use password protected ID's and so forth - at least not yet). Most people use this opportunity responsibly. The webmasters on this forum have always tried to moderate people as little as possible - however there may come a point when someone abuses their posting privileges enough to harass, inconvenience or otherwise inhibit other people on the forum. Then it's time to think about a block, or limited posting privileges for that person. It's a hard decision to make, and it's not made lightly. Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 14:51:51 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Katie Subject: big-time off-topic Message: Katie: I noticed a response from you (concerning your personal experience with firearms in your family) that scrolled out and I wanted to say thank you. You do have me pegged correctly, I really am THAT careful with ANYTHING that is dangerous to others. I think that comes from being 'brainwashed' into a state of 'personal responsibility' by my parents, friends and the armed forces. I have a daughter that understands firearms and their dangers. On the range and in the field, she is exceptionally safe around firearms. She KNOWS how to determine of a firearm is loaded or not and she KNOWS that they are not toys. She knows the 'manual of arms' for safe firearms handling. It's MY responsibility to see to it that she NEVER forgets (IMHO). In the past, as a small test, I have left the safe open so that she could see that it was open. Everytime, without fail, she would hunt me or my wife down to tell us that it was open...... She's GOT IT! In all honesty, my kid isn't a genius....just well trained. I plan on doing the same with driving and any other thing that has the potential to harm her or others (in particular). We haven't shielded her from death and I think that has been a very good thing. She knows that her grandpa isn't coming back..... she understands that dead-is-dead.... gone... caput! These are the things that ANY responsible parent should teach their kids (IMHO). As JW pointed out, and I FULLY agree, 'hiding' knowledge from kids is the absolute height of stupidity (again, IMHO) and actually LEADS to things/events like littleton when it isn't FULL and COMPLETE. Accidents can happen, whether you are hunting or bashing your head against the floor while displaying your gymnastics acumen (with the resultant permanent disabilities that ensue). Swimming accidents here in AZ occur pretty frequently; usually due to lack of training and irresponsible acts by parents (the number one cause is the parents!). It usually results in one death per every three days (on average)! No one here is demanding that personal swimming pools be banned. Yes, by the way, OFTEN the deaths involve kids that hopped a fence (or dug underneath) to get into a pool that isn't theirs....... In other words, the deaths don't necessarily just involve the pool owner's kids, only. Anything that is worth doing has an element of risk involved. The key is to minimize the risks. Obviously you have been around some competitive shooting endeavors (skeet/trap). If so, you know and understand the term 'range nazi.' I'M one of those! When I'm in the field, I'm particularly careful because I KNOW I'm not 'alone' out there. Again, proper training is what made the difference.... I'm not that special, just trained. Training made the difference and the NRA is where the training material originated (sorry, it was a very shameless plug). Believe me when I say, a LARGE portion of that training consisted/consists of 'personal responsibility' and it's meaning in this regard. Anyway, thanks Katie, yours was a very good post! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 15:17:34 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: Mike Subject: big-time off-topic Message: Hi Mike - I'm glad you weren't offended by my post. I know you are VERY responsible with firearms - just wanted to point out that some other people aren't. Maybe YOU should run the NRA! One of the problems that I don't think the NRA addresses fully is that guns plus alcohol are NOT a good combination, as even when a person may be extremely responsible when sober, they may lose it when drunk (just like driving, really). My dad was really good about training us kids about gun safety, but he did some very unsafe things himself when he was under the influence. (I thought of another horror story involving my father pointing a shotgun at my sister because he thought she was an 'intruder' after I posted my post. She hid behind the open door and managed to convince him that she was his daughter, but it was scary as hell.) BTW, can you e-mail me when you get a chance? I have your address somewhere but I've been switching computers so it's hard to find. Thanks - Love, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 15:43:38 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Katie Subject: alcohol off-topic Message: Katie: ABSOLUTELY the NRA addresses that subject! All of the training material directly addresses this subject (for all potential mind altering chemicals, not just alcohol). However, just like speed limits and other safety-related stuff, people can choose not to listen. I know a few people that are missing fingers (and even an arm) from using alcohol while using powertools......unbelievable! But, yes, most definitely that is addressed in all of their training materials. Oh yeah, I'll send ya an email.... wait just a couple of minutes. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 18:11:06 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Mike Subject: alcohol & guns off-topic Message: Hi Mike - I'm sure the NRA does address the subject of alcohol plus guns in their materials - I didn't mean to imply that they did not. Basically I think the problem is that people tend to be in denial about how much alcohol affects them, and how much they can drink and still use firearms (and cars!) responsibly. I've lived in a couple of rural areas where I've almost been run off the road by truckloads of hunters returning from a day of deer shooting (I knew they were hunters because they all wore blaze orange and it was deer season) I don't know if they'd been drinking, but they sure couldn't drive worth a darn. I realize that there's no easy answer to this problem - I guess I was just trying to say that I grew up with it, and thus it bothers me a lot. Take care, Mike - Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:59:36 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Katie Subject: Hunters off-topic Message: Katie: I like the way that 'we' deal with ....ahem.... that group (the ones that act like bozos). Here's the way we do it: We (hunters) are tired of EVERYONE and their brother being mistaken for ethical hunters (the only REAL hunters). If you shoot a sign you are to be called a 'vandal.' Hunters know the difference between a road-sign and a deer. Deer have antlers, right? Signs, on the other hand, are rather static and they are NEVER in season (at least, the last time I looked). Hunters don't drink and hunt. You can't possibly be a hunter and drink because you need ALL of your faculties (mental and physical) to even have a chance to harvest a deer in the field. No REAL hunter would allow themselves to loose control over those faculties. Additionally, hunters don't drink and drive. If they do that, they're criminals (not hunters) because they've broken two laws (all states have laws against this). Hunters don't break laws, therefore they can't be hunters (they just dress like us because they are jealous). Real hunters harvest only that which is in season (and for which they've been drawn) and waste nothing. Real hunters are stewards of the land; they leave as few traces of their passing as is humanly possible. Those that do otherwise are called, 'poachers' and 'litterbugs.' YOU get the picture! The simple fact that a bunch of idiots go out in the forest with a rifle in their hands doesn't make them hunters...... Yeah, OK, I'm bein' a PC kinda guy, but this is one of MY pet peeves! Once someone that 'claims' to be a hunter breaks a law or isn't ethical in their behavior, they are NO LONGER to be mistaken for hunters! In fact, it's a sure sign that they are NOT! :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 21:02:06 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: Mike Subject: Hunters off-topic Message: Mike, So all these guys who shoot signs are the bad guys? But from my limited experience in the US (I'm from England), there must be a hell of a lot of bad guys, cos road signs in the sticks in the US get some serious damage. Don't you think it would be better if those bad guys couldn't get guns? I guess I won't be moving to the US. John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 09:37:13 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: JHB Subject: They aren't Hunters off-topic Message: JHB: You are right....there are some vandals out here that seem to want to destroy alot of public property. Remember, those signs stay up for a long time, despite the damage, so they could have been taking the abuse for many years (depending on how much damage they have sustained). By the way, according to local stats, many more signs are STOLEN than shot-up in this state. The fact that signs are shot up doesn't mean that someone proclaiming to be a hunter did it, either. If they did, then they are NOT hunters, they are VANDALS! The fact that YOU might go in the field with a firearm doesn't, by ANY stretch, make YOU a hunter. Most importantly, though, ALL states have laws (including hunting regs) against discharging firearms from a roadway. If a sign is shot up, it is likely the work of someone that is 'driving by' and not related to 'hunters' in any way shape or form. The 'angle of fire' (represented by the bullet-hole) pretty much supports this supposition. JHB, if you are not moving to the US because of hunting, I would like to present you with some actual FACTS that are published by the National Safety Council, here. You are more likely (by an order of magnitude) to be killed by bee stings than you are to be killed by ANY bullet (hunter or otherwise). As I said in the post below, there haven't been any hunting related fatalities in this state for over 10 years. Understand that I'm referring to death-by-bullet only. There have been some people die, while hunting, from falling off a treestand or cliff (about 5 years ago). According to the NSC, hunting is one of the safest pursuits around. You don't have to believe me, check for yourself.....but do it with the people that are paid to KNOW. Even the media supports the simple fact that millions go hunting and few are injured from ANY cause, much less 'shot.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 05:09:37 (EDT)
From: Red Email: None To: Mike Subject: Hunters off-topic Message: Mike, about 6 months ago, about I mile from my home, a 18 year old boy was walking his dog and a couple of hunters mistook him for a deer and killed him. If those guys didn't have guns then that boy would still be alive. People keep talking about responsible gun ownership, but there's nothing responsible about killing for fun. I suppose hunters see hunting as a manly pastime, but aiming a high powered rifle at Bambi is hardly manly in my view. Now a young Masia warrior, hunting a lion with nothing but a spear, to prove his manhood, now that takes guts. I wonder if the defenseless animals could shoot back, how many hunters would be out there hunting; some, but not many I wager. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 09:21:21 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Red Subject: Hunters off-topic Message: Red: You show all the classic signs of non-understanding. First, there's NO SUCH THING as bambi, ok? Second, hunters don't 'kill for fun.' If you've read ANY of my posts on the subject, you know better. I, personally, hunt for many reasons, but I'll name just one: I like to eat venison, elk and bear because the meat tastes better than store-bought and it is 'organic.' It isn't pumped full of all the chemicals that is present in non-free ranging beef. I don't do well on a vegan diet and I KNOW that what MY body requires, in terms of protein intake. If you wish to 'deny' your DNA, go right ahead, I don't and therefore I hunt.....period! Third, the idiots (that shot the boy) in question didn't identify their target, therefore they CANNOT be hunters because hunters positively identify what they are shooting at before they pull the trigger. Last, but definitely not least, if you think that hunting with a firearm is 'easy,' then why don't you try it. I'll bet you couldn't stalk close enough (during hunting season) to get a clean shot for at least 2 to 3 years (at a minimum....unless you were lucky). Those animals KNOW they are being hunted and getting close enough is TOUGH! That's the problem with most blatant anti-hunters, you really have no concept about the wilds nor do you really understand the predator/prey relationship, nor do you understand the intelligence of the animals being hunted. If I might add; 'call in' a bear (if you are skilled enough....very doubtful), and tell me that they are defenseless little animals. Red, I'm sorry to have to say this but you are obviously not in touch with 'nature,' nor do you seem to understand its functioning. You are making an incredible leap when you say that 'boy' would still be alive today if there were no guns. My friend, he could have very easily died at the hands of a drunk-driver. The NSC stats say that this is MUCH more likely than dying at the hands of a hunter. In fact, the NSC (national safety council) states that you are more likely to die from bee stings than by being shot (for ANY reason). They aren't my stats, check them out for yourself. By the way, here in AZ, there hasn't been a hunting related fatality in over 10 years....... Lots of needless deaths from other pursuits, though. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 10:16:49 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Red Subject: Part II off-topic Message: Red, please read the post above prior to reading this! I forgot to comment on your 'warrior and spear' sentiments. I DO NOT share them. Killing a lion or any other non-food animal to 'prove manhood' is assinine (with any weapon, including your bare hands and intelligence). The fact that you, by your own words, condone this activity is the very HEIGHT of HYPOCRISY! In case you haven't noticed, lions are an endangered species....DUH! Killing them for ANY reason is unacceptable and YOU, dear Red, have just proven to me how 'out of touch' with reality that you really are. Deer have NEVER been more numerous in this country than they are right now! They are NOT endangered, nor is there a single sign that they ever will be. That's one of the reasons they are hunted. Additionally, any game and fish biologist will tell you that the fall harvest, by hunters, is required to keep the herds healthy. Since their other natural predators (YES, WE are natural predators, too) are not present (except in very small numbers), WE have to make up for that. Even still, the herds have never been healthier and the HUNTERS spend big bucks to ensure that ALL ecosystem residents are kept that way. In case you haven't noticed, hunters put more money into wetland restoration, habitats and the land than ALL of the other ecologically minded groups put together! HUNTERS PUSHED congress to pass a law in the 1930's that placed a significant TAX on ALL ammunition and most outdoor equipment. The purpose? Hunters were the VERY FIRST people to recognize that the natural habitats were declining fast and that if something wasn't done to reverse the trend, ALL animals would suffer (not just game animals). That tax has been HAPPILY paid ever since. So don't even presume to lecture me on hunting or the purposes thereof. You don't know what you are talking about, in the slightest! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 13:04:37 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Mike Subject: Great posts Mike Message: You really know your stuff. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 13:38:47 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Mike Subject: Part II off-topic Message: Dear Mike, You and I have discussed this topic off the forum so I won't go over all of that. I know you hunt with respect and that means a lot to me. The one point you touched on but didn't say exactly, I am going to say and I don't know where I heard it so maybe it is wrong but logic tells me it is right. The reason other predators are absent in greater numbers is because of the self centered ignorance of 'civilized' man, not interested in the health of the ecosystem or respect for the natural order of things. Predators were killed so as to not bother the livestock or the people encrouching(sp) on the habitat of the animals native to the land. Do you think they had the right to off set this balance in the first place. I know there is nothing to be done about it now but the arrogance just irks the hell out of me! I went through than not once mentioning the real offenders, in my own oppinion. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 11:06:15 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Part II off-topic Message: Robyn: I agree with you one-hundred percent! We have been stupid, no doubt. The act of killing a lion for 'manhood' right-of-passage is a very good example. Most predators are not edible (or at least, not normally considered food). Other than bears, I have never hunted a predator and that's the reason why I don't.... I won't take what I won't eat! It's different if it's an act of self-defense. I didn't enjoy having to take a bear when I was attacked by one (I wasn't hunting, at the time). I don't know if you read my short post to Catweasle on the subject. But, that's a different story. 'I' have been stalked, REALLY stalked by mountain lions here in AZ. Only once did I get a little edgy....I could see him/her. I fired into a safe backstop and the lion departed. Spoor and tracks were the clue that I was being stalked (I would see them after the fact). Anyway, back to your original question.....No doubt about it. I think it will take a very long time and lots of money to put the wolf back, for example. But, it is happening here in AZ. Ranchers don't like it, but it's happening. I think the natural way to live is to eat what's on hand, not what you buy in a store. The mere existence of a 'store' means that 'some place' is OVER-PRODUCING. Wheat doesn't grow here in AZ, for example. So the farms of the midwest are 'feeding' us, in addition to themselves. Can the land handle this abuse? I don't think so and the great dustbowl was an example. The land will only sustain a certain number of 'users.' So, does that mean I shouldn't be eating wheat? Yes, in my opinion, it does. I should be eating mesquite flour (and I do, by the way). I don't want to be a hypocrit, because I do use stores and I do buy things that aren't locally produced..... so I'm no shining beacon, in this regard. But, when you expect a piece of land to over-produce (to feed more than it normally would sustain), then you MUST get rid of the things (predators, for example) that 'prevent' overproduction. I think so-called 'civilization' has caused tremendous amounts of havoc. It's a TOTALLY unnatural way to live and has spoiled much of the land and its inhabitants. City dwellers have been the reason that most of this damage was done adn continues to be done. My point, with regards to ethical hunting, is that it is a truely 'natural' thing to do and it IS sustainable and renewable. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 05:26:22 (EDT)
From: Red Email: None To: Mike Subject: RUN, Bambi, RUN Message: Mike if your worried about all those chemicals, why not buy an organic chicken, and in this part of the world it's easy to buy organic meat, and that ought to satisfy your ravenous DNA. I don't want to get into the gun debate, but that kid would be alive today if it weren't for guns. You talk of good and bad hunters, but their all out there for the same reason, to kill and maim, lets not be squemish hey. By the way, those guys who shot the kid were licenced shooters, with licenced guns, and they were hunting, and you say they weren't hunters; yeah right. A good friend of mine used to stalk deer with a high powered bow, and one day decided to leave the bow at home, and that's the last time he killed. He taught me to stalk, and it's a feeling I probably share with you, the alertness, concentration. But where I differ from you is that you kill something beautiful for I don't know what reason. I live next to the forest, in fact it comes on to my land, and I spend time part of almost every day there, but I think the way we experience nature is very different. Back in the old days when the world was still wild, then there was a place for hunters, but now there has been so much land clearing and so much pressure on the wildlife, that I don't think there is a place for hunters; IMO, your relics of a bygone age. I once read how many sporting shooters there are in America, and I was astounded. I'm glad I'm not a wild animal in the USA. The young Masai killed a lion as part of a passage into manhood rite, and it was very sustainable. To bad we don't have some sort of passage rites in our culture. One of the reason there's not many lions left is that rich hunters on holidays killed them, in the past at least. Another reason is loss of habitat, and that's part of the same problem, the way we see the nature. Two sounds I hate hearing in the forest; Guns and chainsaws!!!!! Red Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 10:44:27 (EDT)
From: Mke Email: None To: Mike Subject: RUN, who?? Message: Red: You used my name in the from line..... You miss the point entirely, Red. First, I don't trust so-called 'organic' farmers. They are permitted to do things, by law, that I don't approve of. So, you think that cows and chickens aren't beautiful????? Man, you have an unusual way of looking at life. It's ok to kill a chicken and it's ok to kill a cow because they are ...ahem... raised for that purpose. Right, they live in coups and fenced land where they aren't permitted to even 'have a life' prior to their deaths, nor are they 'allowed' to try to escape or evade a hunter (part of the 'game,' you know).....real humane....NOT! Killing and EATING are the final purpose of hunting. Hunters, by using modern equipment and techniques, are definitely NOT trying to MAIM anything. You have never seen anyone who is more pissed with themselves than someone that has wounded an animal and then has to track it. In my case, this hasn't happened (I'm a VERY good shot and KNOW my limitations), but I've seen the look on a hunter's face when he made a mistake and has to quickly track an animal. You miss my point again concerning hunters, in general. HUNTERS are ethical. If you are NOT ethical, then you can't possibly be a hunter. Think of a title that you enjoy wearing (proudly) and then think of someone that uses that title to describe themselves. Like say, you enjoy being called a law-abiding citizen..... then you hear someone like Mike Tyson using the same terms to describe themselves.....WRONG! The same goes for hunters. REAL hunters don't break hunting regs, they are ethical, they are safety conscious at all times, they identify their targets prior to firing, they don't drink and shoot, They don't shoot signs or do any other vandalism to property, they are stewards of the land and its inhabitants. If you break ANY of these rules/ethics, then you ARE NOT a hunter; you are just someone who's out in the field with a firearm! Don't flatter yourself by calling yourself something that you are not. Last, have you ever butchered the animal that you eat? If not or if you are unwilling, then I have nothing more to say to you. Hypocrits abound in the anti-hunting ranks. It's ok to kill chickens (they aren't beautiful.....) and it's ok to kill a non-edible animal for a manhood right of passage.....But it's not ok to hunt....BULLSHIT! Red, that's called HYPOCRISY....look it up in the dictionary. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 11:33:33 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Mke Subject: another really great post Message: I especially like the last paragraph. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 12:21:25 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: g's mom Subject: Thank you... :-) (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 19:27:03 (EDT)
From: Red Email: None To: Mke Subject: RUN, who??BAMBI,that's who! Message: OK, Ok, we'll have to agree to disagree. You know, I agree with you about lots of things and about some others, there's no easy answers. I'm mainly vegetarian. If I go to someones house for a meal I'll eat what's been prepared for me, otherwise no. Also I grow most of my own food, and even people on normal house blocks have the resourses to do the same. Have you heard of permaculture? I don't like killing any animals, and I definitely don't like the intensive farming techniques that are used to produce meat, or grain or vegatables for that matter. I've heard that the population has reached the extent where we couldn't feed them by growing organically, but this came from an industry sourse, so it may or may not be true. It's all part of the same problem in my eyes. The enviroment doesn't even come close to getting equal rights, it's being poisoned, cut down, shot up, and exploited in many, many ways. That's my main problem with you hunters; your helping to destroy something I love deeply. The head honcho hunter in the valley where I live, once said to me, 'I don't know why your pissed at me for shooting deer, their just big rats'. Well you have to admire the honesty of the guy, if nothing else. You asked me if I'd butchered an animal. I used to hunt in my teens, because that's what my mates all did. Then one day I killed an animal, and the enormity of what I'd just done hit me like a ton of bricks. I'd taken another beings life for no good reason, and I never did it again. The world has been so fucked by greed and apathy, and it would be nice if what's left of wilderness was off limits to the people who want to destroy either little or big bits of it in IMO. Concerning the Masai, Eurropeans have been imposing their beliefs about how things should be on all indiginous peoples, who lived in a much more connected existance, and what your saying about them is more of the same. By the way, I think g's mom has a crush on you. Might this be one of those internet romances I hear about? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 15:34:29 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: barney (tiring of this) Subject: shp email #3 Message: Thanks for posting this stuff, Barn, as tiresome as it is, it's quite revealing. This part in particular is upsetting: I sincerely hope Gail does feel better and goes to Miami and hangs with Mary. In the midst of all this bullshit, Gail shined out as someone very vulnerable and hurt, and I wanted to reach out to her however I could and try to make her feel better across the chasm of differneces and misundertandings, incidents and accidents. So, for a brief moment, I became her angel and tried to help her. Hope it did help. It's all about love, not words. Notice how sheep gloms on to someone in whom he sees some sign of vulnerability, kinda like a pederast works on a kid to gain his confidence and exploit any weakness he may perceive. All in the name of love. Not that Gail is weak or vulnerable or that sheep is a child molester, but I find the analogy to be valid. So you do what you gotta do, Barney. It's all the same to me. So far, you are obviously new and inexperienced at wielding power. I'm used to helping folks like you through stuff like this, no hard feelings or offense taken. Does anyone else find this statement to be flabbergasting in it's arrogance and mostly likely, out right deception? I mean, sheep has recently admitted to ''lies/fibs.'' This guy is one of the most egotisical persons I've run across in my lifetime. And yes, sheep. bitter enemies. If I were to meet you on the street, I'd spit on you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 16:14:48 (EDT)
From: Mare Email: None To: Gerry Subject: More Like Rob Message: Hi Gerry, I took the liberty to edit a few words in your astute perception. Now, hmmmmm, who strolled into a discussion on depression... oh right, Rob. Notice how Rob gloms on to someone in whom he sees some sign of vulnerability, kinda like a shark works on a lemming to gain his confidence and exploit any weakness he may perceive. All in the name of love. Mare Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 20:19:08 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Gerry Subject: For SHIPPY--LONG Message: I have been hurt by Maharaji's mind warp. Everyone of us has. That's why we're here. After buying into this whole thing for so long, it is hard to reinvent yourself. Look at the checklist below, SHP. I have read many of your posts. You cannot even admit that you thought MJ was the Lord because he said so. You are probably really smart, but your logic sucks. How can you look at all the issues you have been presented with and not see any of it. I still have silly ideas such as: 1. All things are secondary to the Master and Knowledge. (I am lost without some grandiose purpose in life.) 2. Worldly pursuits such as a career are only vehicles to pursue the Master and Knowledge, or to propagate the Master and Knowledge. (What now?) 3. Family, marriages, sexual relations are nothing in the face of a devotee. Mothers, fathers, children, husbands, and friends are transitory, but the joy of Maharaji's world is real (permanent according to the dictionary). At first, it really hurts to put MJ first, but soon some alter spiritual ego takes over and it become so easy trash everything in favour of MJ. (There's no one left.) 4. Attachment to anything or anyone robs you of the divine experience. It's ok to use people, but never forget that everyone is dispensible. Being alone with MJ is the superior choice. 5. Activities that do not enhance your experience of Knowledge or promote Maharaji and Knowledge to others are frivilous and wasteful. You might as well choose MJ and K. Otherwise, you will feel guilty and not enjoy yourself anyway. (I convinced myself that I don't really like anythng.) 6. Be careful. Despite the years of effort, you could be vanquished with the next wave (phase II). The Master only knows his true devotee with the devotee's last breath. Fixate on Maharaji in all that you do. Become a BEGGAR. BEG, BEG, BEG, FOR THAT LOVE, THAT JOY, THAT UNDERSTANDING, THAT ... By doing this, Maharaji will come to you in your last breath and carry you across the threshold. (Now I don't have a god to talk to at all.) 7. Now that you have the Knowledge of all knowledges, you will never be free again. You will be tormented by it always. You can never do enough. Ceaselessly practise. If you are not careful, the fragile cord that connects you to the master will be destroyed. (The cord is gone for sure.) 8. Never forget that you are superior to others. You have the K of all Ks. Regardless of what happens, you are right; the rest of the world is wrong. If the lower echelons do not want to know the true path, do not waste your time with them. (Yuck, I don't even want to touch this one.) AND SO ON, AND SO ON, AND SO ON. Over half my life has been spent in the dogma mentioned in #1-8. Here I am at 44, an ex-premie. It has been one year since I left the fold. I have a job, a daughter, and a computer for a friend. My idea of a good time is to light a smoke and swill coffee. I drag myself out occasionally, but I feel like I don't fit in. I am afraid that I will remain alone and void of all interests. This last year has not been very much fun (but neither were the others with MJ). I don't know what I like or want anymore. I have been strip mined, and there is a severe erosion problem. However, I am planting my own seeds now, and like the knight that I am, I ride out every day to see if spring has come to my land (I think it's only March). I'd rather be where I am than in some fake reality where things seem to fit together, but they don't. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 22:13:25 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Gail Subject: For SHIPPY--LONG Message: Dear Gail, Thank you for writing that. I hope things get easier as time goes on, I hope you meet people and make some new friends. I know that take a long time, to find good people you can trust but they are out there. In the mean time and even after your life starts to feel good, I hope you find friendship, support and caring here, I know I have. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 22:24:14 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: mem_mcgraw@msn.com To: Gail Subject: To you Gail Message: Hi Gail, I too thank you for your post. I don't live in Miami as it's so often stated. I'm in a beautiful part of Florida with trees, springs, rivers..... very soothing. Please consider a standing invitation to come down. I think it's supposed to be 'You Have a Friend in Pennsylvania' what the heck... we'll break the rules;-) Take care, Mary Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 22:46:57 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Mary M Subject: Hey Gail! Message: Hi Gail. Your post was very insightful and revealing. The time right after getting out is the worst. things will change. You will have new friends. It can get pretty dark at this point and I can see that's what you're feeling. It does end and you do go on. We're here for you now and later too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:13:55 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Hey Guys! Message: THANKS FOR EVERYTHING! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:18:28 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Mary M Subject: To you Gail Message: Dear Mary and Gail, 'I think it's supposed to be 'You Have a Friend in Pennsylvania' what the heck... we'll break the rules;-)' Hey that's ME!!!!!!!!!!!! :) :) I mean I live in PA and yes that is the 'official' saying. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:23:01 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Robyn Subject: To you Gail Message: YESSS.... Robyn is now our official 'Friend in Pennsylvania'. Thanks Robyn. Luv, mare Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 09:58:13 (EDT)
From: Catweasel Email: Cheshire? To: Gail Subject: For SHIPPY--LONG Message: Dear Gail,How are you?Have you ever thought of doing a Dorothy.Get caught up in a twister and land on your feet in the Land of Oz? Sure, WE've got Tinmen,Heartless Lions and quite a few scarecrows!!!!And rainbows ,oh yes there is a wizard ;he drops in quite regularily.Life is a beautiful pageant And family,friends,lovers,husbands,fathers,mothers,children?;this is part of life,a great joy of life.There is no need for denial of such loves.Here ,thats the one thing critically missing...Love Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 16:01:34 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: For Katwheezle Message: KW: Well, I was unable to respond to your post concerning my apparent embodiment of hate. So, tell me, EXACTLY how do I embody hate? Second, it is no business of yours as to how many firearms that I own. This has no bearing, whatsoever, on whether I hate anyone, either. I hunt (and eat what I harvest), I target-shoot (in competition) and I teach others how to do the same. Nope, no hate there! But, go ahead and tell me how owning a firearm just PROVES that I hate....... This ought to be interesting. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 13:56:21 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: shp and all Subject: comments on shp email #3 Message: Dear shp - I just wanted to make a few comments on some of the things you said in your e-mail to Barney. I know you're blocked and you cannot answer, but you did ask for comments... You wrote: You are trying to parent your flock. I don't think you will get a consensus that ex-premies want to be parented by their webmaster. Check it out. In the first place, I don't think that Barney is trying to 'parent' anyone here at all. I know he doesn't want that role - neither did Brian or I when we were web-mastering. If you ask me, YOUR attitude, as revealed in these e-mails, is quite 'parental', and somewhat superior. I know that you've posted some honest, humble, and open posts, and I appreciate that, but a lot of the time, your posts seem meant to guide or manipulate people into whatever direction. It's not easy being the webmaster of this site and forum (and what you actually SEE here on the forum is just the tip of the iceberg). The job requires a lot of time and responsibility, and I respect Barney very much for agreeing to take on the position. And I think he's handling it well. You also wrote: So you do what you gotta do, Barney. It's all the same to me. So far, you are obviously new and inexperienced at wielding power. I'm used to helping folks like you through stuff like this, no hard feelings or offense taken. I can't believe you meant this statement to be as offensive as it sounds, honestly. You're taking a VERY superior attitude here. Part of the reason that it's so difficult to be the webmaster here is some people tend to criticize the job you are doing without having any idea of what the job actually entails, and without being willing to take on any kind of responsibility themselves. I don't see your words as 'helping' Barney at all. What would really HELP, in my opinion, is if YOU (and everyone else) would post responsibly. You wrote: Let's see you put this one up too, then check out the feedback. OK, you've got MY feedback. Sincerely, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 14:01:19 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Katie Subject: Hi Katie Message: Katie: It must have been the time shp spent on Steve Gaskin's computer-geek farm that gave him his superior knowledge of webmastering. Therefore, I'm sure he is eminently qualified to give us his next-to-godlike advice......NOT! :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 14:24:46 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: Mike Subject: Hi Mike Message: Snicker...or should I say BWAH HA HA! Seriously, one learns a lot about people AND about yourself from being a forum webmaster. Especially on THIS forum. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 12:24:28 (EDT)
From: KB Email: None To: barney Subject: the walrus was paul Message: Does this e-mail sound like -spank me- to you? Geeze Barney, your made of the same potent stuff Brian is. Folks here have invested hours of typeing on shp's behalf. You are right as usual. The 'clue' shipster was refferring to is that -sandra=shp. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 14:31:17 (EDT)
From: barney Email: None To: KB Subject: and I spent hours typing that Message: Yes, I know that people spent hours and hours on the shp issue. It's a bit of a tough one because there is a vocal group that wanted him gone and a non-vocal group with a live and let live view. I think his excessive overuse (barney sez to KB) of posting names coupled with his outright deceit in his birthday greeting to Gerry sealed his fate. Basically, he's been messing with us. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 15:16:31 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: barney Subject: and I spent hours typing that Message: I trust your good sense, Barney. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 15:34:38 (EDT)
From: barney Email: None To: Marianne Subject: thanks Message: Thanks, Marianne. This has been a difficult choice to make. I think the key point is the dishonesty where shp is running circles around the Forum with his different posting names and personalities. It's a source of confusion having all these new characters popping in and out and having to try to figure out their position and agenda. It's unfair to us and anyone else reading the Forum. Sure, I'm guilty of it and so are others, but there's a difference where there's a valid reason or for obvious comic relief. shp, on the other hand, is trying to keep us off balance. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 15:38:21 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: barney Subject: thanks Message: I think we're entitled to know to whom we're speaking, so I endorse your decision. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 16:03:55 (EDT)
From: barney Email: None To: KB and Mickey the P. Subject: no, Sandra not = shp Message: For the record, Sandra is not shp. Yes, Mickey was onto shp in the Judicial System thread. And Mickey wins a free one-way trip to Panama. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 14:20:07 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: barney Subject: Prize winner! Message: ' Yes, Mickey was onto shp in the Judicial System thread. And Mickey wins a free one-way trip to Panama.' Yipeeeeee! Hey, wait! I have to go to Costa Rica first; can I have the cash instead? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 15:20:26 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: to Mickey (ot) Message: Hiya, Mickey! When are y'all leaving for Costa Rica/Panama? I certainly hope you'll have internet access in Panama, otherwise we will miss you big-time. Love, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 15:44:17 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Katie Subject: to Katie (ot) Message: Mona and I leave for Costa Rica on July 30. We leave Costa Rica for Panama on August 27, and Anne will follow us from the States on August 30. We will try to get on line as soon as possible. We have to leave Berkeley on June 30, and I won't have internet access until I get to Panama, so I'll say good-bye to the Forum around the end of the month. I hope that things are going well for you. Love, Michael Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 18:48:33 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Prize winner! Message: All the best to you Mickey. I hope you like it there. I'll bet I would. Thanks for that e-mail a while back. :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 12:17:30 (EDT)
From: KB Email: None To: barney Subject: stuffing mickey Message: Mickey might have you on the qoute shippie. 'it means if someone isn't taking to you, show them the other side of your personality' 'I KNOW it's so' Sorry charlie, but I don't think you hit it. And I am not as knowledgeable as The Padre. Show your above quote to your wife and neighbors and see how they don't applaud your translation. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 14:50:18 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: all Subject: SHP vs. Jim: one more comment Message: I actually wanted to make some of these comments in the GI versus Jim threads, but didn't have time before they went inactive. shp wrote, re Jim: I have been doing to him what he has done to myself and others. All I can say is that shp is not the first person to try and 'mirror' Jim's behavior, or try and 'give Jim a taste of his own medicine', or 'cut him down to size' or whatever. And I'm sure he won't be the last. The extent to which some of the posters on here (usually premies) become obsessed with Jim always amazes me. As everyone who has been reading the forum for a while knows, Jim and I don't agree on many things, and we sometimes get into arguments. However, I don't view him as the 'alpha male', or the primary voice on the forum, or as the anti-christ/anti-Maharaji or whatever, and I don't think the other ex-premies on here do either (although I do know that many people are grateful for his posts). Jim's been posting on this forum in its various permutations for a long time, and he posts a lot, which may lead certain people to believe that he's the dominant voice here. He may rub some people the wrong way, but he's also helped a whole lot of people (there's been testimony to this effect on the forum, and I have gotten a lot of e-mails confirming this). It's really heartening to people who are just leaving Maharaji, or who are on the fence, to see someone like Jim openly say exactly what he thinks about Maharaji using his own name without fear of reprisals. I respect Jim very much for that. Furthermore, and this is one of the things I wanted to say in the GI vs. Jim thread - I am VERY tired of people attacking Jim for being a lawyer. I know it's fashionable to trash lawyers, make lawyer jokes, or whatever, but that's not the subject under discussion here, for one thing. If this was a perfect world, we wouldn't need lawyers, but the fact is that it is NOT a perfect world, and NOBODY who posts here has clean hands. Unless we're total non-comsumers who live completely off the grid (and I'm assuming everyone here is on the grid since they're all using computers and the Internet), everytime we buy anything, use anything, basically DO anything, we're contributing to injustice, pollution, exploitation, and the like. I used to work in sewage sludge disposal (beneficial re-use, but with some environmental problems), and when people asked me HOW I could possibly do that, I always said 'Well, YOU make it.' That's sort of how I feel about people being lawyers, too. Anyway, end of rant - Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 16:10:07 (EDT)
From: Barney Lloyd Bentsen Email: None To: Katie Subject: I knew Jim Heller Message: I knew Jim Heller. I saw his band, the Groping Guru Groupies, play at Fillmore West. Jim has real stage presence that ranges from the crowd pleasing Garth Brooks to the wild man of G.G. Allen or Iggy Pop. I waited in the alley after the show to try to get Jim to autograph a copy of his successful No Heroes album with the smash hits, I never wanted to be your leader, but what the hell and You never answered my questions. I waited nearly two hours when Jim finally left the building. At first, it looked like Jim was going to bash me on the head with his guitar, but he was just enthusiastically swinging it out of his way in order to sign the album cover. A month later the Fillmore closed and the band broke up citing philosophical differences. I made the best of the situation and quickly sold the autographed album for $30, after making a tape of it. Seriously, the labeling of Jim as the alpha-male is a red herring and a is an effort to foment division here at the Forum. It is insulting to read such a proclamation when it is obviously not true as the Forum is truly a collection of empowered individuals making valuable contributions. Perhaps, it is very easy for premies to need an alpha-male as it is a very familiar concept to them. Furthermore, it is convenient to focus on one or a two identifiable villains. For premies to consider and believe that we are not being lead by one person is probably difficult to do. Again, there's no way a premie is going to win the argument about Maharaji over because sooner or later they start soft-peddling. And this would happen with or without Jim. Premies, we were there, but we're here now. You, too, can escape the madness, but you gotta let go of the bullshit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 13:08:07 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Katie Subject: Great post Katie! (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 09:10:33 (EDT)
From: Mare Email: None To: barney Subject: Darn I never got Raphael the Message: pedophile's last name out of SHP. No doubt on my part that SHP knows his full name. Oh well, I revise my statement to the parent inquiring about her daughter going to programs with her dad. DON'T LET YOUR CHILD GO. Assuming Mahatma Jagdeo was squirreled safely out of the country, there is still one child molester in the minions of EV with access to children. Mare Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 17:42:08 (EDT)
From: cp Email: None To: thread Subject: Forum not trying to be 'fair' Message: and equal. Life isnt like that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 01:08:03 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Divine Times 1973 Message: Friends: I have unearthed a number of issues of Divine Times from 1973. What a treasure trove! I am reading them all over so that I can input the best passages for we ex's as well as the relative new-comers --- those who missed out on the Millenium hysteria and disappointment. No one will be disappointed, I promise. More to come tomorrow. Tune in recent devotees. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 01:41:47 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Divine Times April 1, 1973 Message: Well folks, do you think it was an April Fools Joke? The title of this issue of Divine Times is DIVINE UNITED ORGANIZATION --- World Set Up to Provide for Mankind - Divine Satsang filmed. I will add more tomorrow. This is how all us old timers were led to believe that the organization was going to change the world. There was a video of M, which included a flag for DUO. Where is the DUO flag today? Remember that? Here's some choice comments from Divine Times, dated May 15, 1973. The topic is Health and the discussion is Sex and Meditation. The last and most important paragraph states: This is not to say that the sexual act cannot be a meaningful expression of true love and creation. It is to say, however, that sexual desire can be transcended. Physiologically speaking, when a person meditates regularly, his endocrinal system is profoundly affected, and the sexual hormones are not produced at previous levels. The pineal gland then acts as a bind of the master gland [I am quoting exactly here] to tune the person to experience true consciousness of bliss. There is excellent scientific evidence to support this thesis. The real test, though, is practical experience. Anyone experiencing deep meditation knows that sexual desires simply melt away in the purity and continuity of love from the Real Self. So premies, what do you have to say about this bizarre and guilt producing piece of misinformation? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 01:43:48 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Good thing I read that first Message: Thanks Marianne, I just called Laurie and cancelled my plans for tonight. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 11:01:24 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Jim Subject: Good thing I read that first Message: I hope you have successfully sublimated your pineal gland to your master gland, young man! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 09:50:02 (EDT)
From: Mare Email: None To: Marianne Subject: DUO Flag Message: Hey Marianne, I think Mata Ji has the DUO flag wrapped around her head in the picture Jim provided us a link to. Yessirreee.... I finally have figured out who M is, he's the Master Sex Gland. Tee Hee, Mare Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 12:29:27 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Mare Subject: DUO Flag Message: It's a beautiful Sunday morning in San Francisco, Mare, and I've got my java here with me. When I read my post over again this morning, that wonderful piece of advice about sex and meditation sounded like it came from a lapsed Catholic --- straight out of high school confession. 'Now if you'll just pray to the Holy Mother by saying ten Hail Marys my daughter, I'm sure you won't get into trouble with Johnny Collins again. Just think of the Holy Mother when those desires arise and you'll be just fine.' Did you get my last email? Did yas laugh, girlfriend? Now I'm going to post some more great info from Divine Times. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 15:04:18 (EDT)
From: Mare Email: None To: Marianne Subject: DUO Flag Message: Well of course Marianne the quote came from that lapsed Catholic Maharaji. The gall of him to take the Baltimore Catechism and build his 'Spiritual Empire' upon it. Actually, he never made it to secondary school, he peeked at his older brother's Catechism. Naughty child that he was. Let's hope his dates remember not to wear patent leather shoes, and bring a thick phone book on dates with him! (You know for the lap situation!) Had a good laugh from your e-mail. Luv, Mare Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 12:40:04 (EDT)
From: KB Email: None To: Mare Subject: DUO Flag Message: All the money raised to feed the hungry and shelter and clothe the world, went ONLY to prem rawat and his malibu home and other desires. We only fed clothed and housed ONE person. Isn't that amazing? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 23:35:46 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: M's email - Rob Message: I'm confused. Maharaji has an email page on his site ... for what? Only a cult leader would think of presenting his feedback as he has. Am I right? Rob, you're a thoughtful guy. What do you think? Have you ever seen someone so frightened by real interaction before? And why hasn't he mentioned any of the angry emails he's received? Would you say his summary is a fair one? Omitting all the critical comments? Is that honest? Hm? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 00:47:34 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Jim Subject: M's email Message: The purpose of his site, as I understand it, is to inform people about Knowledge, inspire those who are interested or who have received Knowledge, to provide a brief background, to announce upcoming events. To uplift and inspire. Part of that is to allow people to share their positive experiences about life, Knowledge and Maharaji. Note I said positive. Now how uplifting and inspiring would angry letters from people who have given up on practising Knowledge be? Maharaji doesn't see Knowledge as a subject for group discussion. Why should he? He is 100% certain of his experience, and he is equally 100% certain that anyone who is willing to put in the effort will have that same experience. There is nothing to debate. He is not about to run a Mori poll on whether Knowledge works or not. So why doesn't he print out 'angry' emails. Because he chooses not to. Look, I said before, it's not a democracy. He is a very strong teacher who knows his subject completely. He is the driving force behind his own work, there's no committee discussing the curriculum here. That's the whole deal, you accept him and his way of teaching as it is, there aren't any 'pick-and-mix options'. It's not a telephone calling plan, it's an experience of who you really are. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 01:02:29 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Rob Subject: Sorry, try again Message: Rob, There is no way around this one, I'm afraid. M didn't have to put an email section on his page. As he is a very strong teacher who knows his subject completely he could have just presented his profoundly powerful insights unilaterally. But, he didn't. He decided, instead, to offer a patina of interaction and openness. A semblance of communication. Okay, that just speaks to his cowardice and that's not even my main focus right now. The real point is that, deciding as he did to breakdown the various emails he'd received to date, he was intentionally misleading readers by ommitting any mention of the critical. What the fuck's wrong with you? This point is so obvious. Maharaji's trying to trick people, dude. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 01:45:27 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Jim Subject: Not having it Message: No there's nothing wrong with me at all. Neither is there anything wrong with his website. I don't see the email facility there as anything more than it really is. It's a chance for people who are enjoying the gift of Knowledge to express that to Maharaji and to others. It's not the Agony Column of Newsweek. There's no editorial panel discussing the political correctness of whether to appear impartial or not. Look, he wants people to give Knowledge a try. It's that simple. If you remember anything at all of your own experience then you'll know that you did once feel something beautiful. Oh, I forget, it's all brain cocktails, isn't it? So tell me now straight out that you do not want anyone who is interested in Knowledge to ever have that experience in their lives. Can you do that? Can you actually go so far as to want to deprive the rest of humanity, the chance to connect with the most beautiful feeling they may ever get the chance to have. Because if just one person is put off by reading the ramblings of some bitterly angry 'ex', then the author of that letter has done that person the greatest disservice one human being can ever do to another. Let people have the experience of Knowledge first, then they can look at all the other shit and decide for themselves how significant it is, but don't for God's sake let your own personal vendetta ruin it for the rest of mankind. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 01:58:48 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Rob Subject: Wrong question Message: So tell me now straight out that you do not want anyone who is interested in Knowledge to ever have that experience in their lives. Rob, That's not at all the question. Who am I to tell people what meditation to do or what the ultimate truth is about any such practise? You know, personally, I think k is bullshit but that's not the point. If people want to meditate, fine. If, however, the only way they're going to 'get there' is by being set up by a slick, misrepresentative con man, then yeah, I'm all for their being turned off. Absolutely. Of course, they all would be turned off, too, if the truth was out there for all to see. If Satpal pitched his tent next to Prempal's, how many of your friends would go into either? Rob, we were in the same boat as those 'friends' way back when. Trouble is, we didn't know. We didn't know how Shri Hans himself was just running his own renegade lemonade stand. Should we have known? Are you nuts? Of course we should have. Would that have deterred us from 'surrendering the reigns of our lives'? Hopefully. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 02:17:28 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Jim Subject: One more Message: and I got to be away to my bed. The only problem with your answer there is that it all hinges on your opinion of Maharaji. Now you are as entitled to that as I am to mine, as Voltaire said, 'I disagree with what you said, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.' Well maybe I wouldn't go that far, but you get my drift. Your opinion is yours, fine. Where that becomes an issue in my mind is if it were to negatively influence someone before they had had a chance to properly check things out for themselves. You may see Maharaji as a slick, misrepresentative con man but that is not the truth. He is a teacher and friend to many, many thousands of people. If all concerned were really to be polled, they would flood this website into oblivion with positive answers to your questions. Somehow you just got lost in all the mess that was the 70's and early 80's. It's a real shame. I hate to see so much bitterness and anger in a person. Now you look back and 'understand' everything, 'see' how you were duped and led on. What a shame you couldn't look at the way things are today with an unbiased eye. Anyway, c'est la vie. I'll talk to you again. Rob. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 02:21:31 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Rob Subject: Bullshit Message: Rob, The narrow issue we were discussing was whether or not M misrepresents his email. He does. End of story. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 03:02:34 (EDT)
From: xyz Email: no To: Rob Subject: One more Message: Where that becomes an issue in my mind is if it were to negatively influence someone before they had had a chance to properly check things out for themselves. You? Your mind? Properly? Check things out for, themselves? Who the hell are you ------- Tell me the whole story on this car; and yes after I hear it has bad wheels I might not have or take a wonderful, Blissful, Trip, in it, but, that is the price of knowledge. Real Knowledge! Real Life. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 11:14:21 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: xyz Subject: One more Message: I agree, xyz. Such care is taken not to 'turn off' people interested in knowledge. That seems so silly. Why not address the real issues up front? What's the danger? There's this agreement among premies never to say anything negative, always to give it a beautiful glow. Why is knowledge painted one way when the aspirant is seeking, and then becomes something else quite different once they receive knowledge?.Why is that? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 03:24:36 (EDT)
From: xyz Email: no To: Helen Subject: One more Message: I agree, xyz. Such care is taken not to 'turn off' people interested in knowledge. That seems so silly. Why not address the real issues up front? What's the danger? There's this agreement among premies never to say anything negative, always to give it a beautiful glow. Why is knowledge painted one way when the aspirant is seeking, and then becomes something else quite different once they receive knowledge?.Why is that? ___________________________________________________________ Mind Games - Power Plays - The need to bring in/offer a sacrifice/person for (M) in the hopes some magic/good fortune will be Graced upon them by (M) or his power source. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 16:19:19 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: xyz Subject: One more Message: That's scary! So you think premies think that if they bring a person to knowledge they (the premie) will receive a special grace? I never thought of this. Anyone else think this? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:11:07 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Rob Subject: Rob, rub your brain cells Message: Rob, you said yourself that he's not the SUPERIOR POWER IN PERSON. Since MJ is not divine, what makes you so certain that K is the ultimate, divine experience? Why does humanity need some ancient Chinese techniques (they had them first--check out Chi Gung). Not everyone needs to learn to meditate to have the time of their lives. K has screwed up a lot of people including you. From practical experience, I can assure you that K and MJ are poison. Why would I want others to suffer the same misfortune? Just because you like living within the confines of a concentration camp doesn't mean that humanity should follow suit. Your promotion of Maharaji, meditation techniques, and the lifelong committment is neither honest nor logical. Rub the last few free-working brain cells you have together and get real. What has the cult really done for you? Did you see No One's post? He is going to continue on this path to oblivion even though he hates MJ and K; this appreciation comes from someone who has suffered abuse at the hands of a mind-f---ing cult. Please don't spread this disease to anyone else. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 02:42:07 (EDT)
From: No - know - NO Email: no To: Jim Subject: Sorry, try again Message: The real point is that, deciding as he did to breakdown the various emails he'd received to date, he was intentionally misleading readers by omitting any mention of the critical. What the fuck's wrong with you? This point is so obvious. Maharaji's trying to trick people, dude. ____________________________________________________________ And it is not even a real email, like, 'maharaji@maharaji.com', which he owns and may use that way, but, it is a PRIVATE message board, that you give the, ?Letter/?---/???/???, one of 4 types of PRIVATE, MESSAGE, NOT PUBLIC EMAIL, as to allow for the Cult Leader to do with as he pleases...... not even God or anything on that side of the fence would be afraid to talk openly for the enlightenment of all, but, on the other side of the fence, well, that IS another story and that IS what IS going on with M and his Site. M is in 100% control of what is in his Cult, this way ----- Reality is what he says it is or you can F off, but, he is flawed, he bleeds, he makes mistakes, so that is the sign of a Perfect Master, No/pass/for-get-it --- he is not 100% so why would any one give them selves over to ……---. Do I need to go on? I hope you get it. I know their are reasons why people want to have a Lord/Perfect Master/Guru Maharaj Ji/God in human form/King/Leader, but, nothing means nothing unless we the person have an opportunity in an open forum to communicate with our, Lord/Perfect Master/Guru Maharaj Ji/God in human form/King/Leader, and truly understand or we are merely slaves of our Lord/Perfect Master/Guru Maharaj Ji/God in human form/King/Leader, and live in a world not fully understanding or being allowed to, that is if we choose to stay in such a CULT and or club, HA ha ha. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 01:03:18 (EDT)
From: Powerman Email: None To: Rob Subject: Rob's frailty Message: Jesus, man, take a look. Our leaving the Lard and regaining our ability to think and criticize is a positive experience. The Lard may be 100% certain that anyone willing to put in the effort will have the same experience as him, but I'm telling you, he's wrong. I put in extreme effort for years and I understand many others here did, also. The results were questionable, at best. The guru's lying, Robot, and that's what's up for debate. Each one of us who dedicated our lives and made that extreme effort know that maharaji's lying. And that, Robot, is why maharaji won't answer. Just a little truth for ya, baby! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 01:58:08 (EDT)
From: R2D2 Email: None To: Powerman Subject: Effort Message: Would you be good enough to describe your extreme effort? I think you flatter yourself a little too much. Dedicated your lives? Made that extreme effort? Can you see how much that sounds like pure rhetoric? How can you dedicate your life and then quit after a few years? Do you see how shallow that sounds. It's not about grinding your teeth and making eff-ort. Nailing your butt to a chair and putting superglue on your hands. Is that what you meant by extreme effort? Try this: First thing tomorrow morning, after you shower and all that stuff, sit down, close your eyes and...relax. Just that. Don't make any effort to do anything. Just relax. Be calm. Then start the first technique. Trust in the techniques, they do work. I'm wasting my breathe, aren't I? Fine. But you know, I am making progress. Look - you went four whole paragraphs without swearing at me! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 02:17:44 (EDT)
From: Powerman Email: None To: R2D2 Subject: Effort Message: The extreme effort was to realize knowledge by practicing satsang, service and meditation. And surrender... surrender to lord Sounds like rhetoric? Not really, when the real effort was in the battle between the mind and being connected to maharaji. Ever had that struggle? I think most people here did. It consumes most of your time and energy. The point is that one dedicates their life in good faith. When it became apparent the faith was unfounded , all bets were off. That's what happened. At best, the results of these efforts were questionable, and at some point, the losses had to be cut. You say the meditation works. I think you'll get a resounding disagreement here, that they don't work like that Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 02:29:41 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Powerman Subject: Wrong kind of Effort Message: ...the real effort was in the battle between the mind and being connected to maharaji. Then that's where you were going wrong. If you were trying to battle with your mind, no wonder you dropped out. You can't ever win a battle with yourself like that. The trick is to just ignore the damn thing. Like I said, relax, trust the techniques, let your mind rabbit on if it wants to, just don't pay any attention to it and it'll eventually quiet down. Forget about dedicating your life to Maharaji. Dedicate it to yourself. Give the techniques another chance if you want to and this time don't turn it into World War 3! Beddy-byes fer me now. Rob Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 02:41:54 (EDT)
From: Powerman Email: None To: Rob Subject: You poor sod. Message: Don't you know that everything you've said is nothing new. Not to me, and I doubt to anyone here. It's all been tried, all the games of re-arranging the ideas, the methods, the applications, all in search of the magic bullet. No, Robot, no magic bullet. The shit just don't work like you say, or like maharaji says. I think most of the exes here agree on that. What you don't understand is that we weren't doing anything wrong, or inaccurate, or incorrect in our pursuit, practise, or application of knowledge or maharaji. Unfortunately, the knowledge is a hoax and maharaji is a fraud. You just can't get past that, Rob. It's true. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 04:08:50 (EDT)
From: cp Email: None To: Powerman Subject: You poor sod. Message: Hi powereman I for one know that the knowlege technques started to work once I pulled Mararingy out of the equasion. 'Devotion' to him was screwing it up. Then 'keeping in touch ' was screwing it up. Now the vibration inside is there and I recognise Malarky for the Jimmy Baker that he is. I finally realised that I couldnt find out how to grow fl flowers from a used car salesman I do not trust him. He is exploiting people. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 11:35:36 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Rob Subject: The key-words Message: Rob: You finally said it...'You can't ever win a battle with YOURSELF like that.' Thank you, thank you, thank you! A premie has finally admitted that their 'mind' is their 'self!' Now, with that in ...ahem... mind, why are you trying to escape 'yourself?' You can't do that, you know.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 05:40:31 (EDT)
From: Catweasel Email: Ho-Hum To: Powerman Subject: Effort not to be Shortsighted? Message: Dear Mr Powerman ,It would seem to me that if automobile travel had been left in your hands,we would have all purchased 1957 Ford Edsels,and complained for the next 43 years that it was a piece of junk and didn't work!Some of us stayed in contact with the auto company,updated regularily and now drive Jaguar'S'series.What you speak of is where you left the picture. To Quote 'I told them to bring the seed [from India],but they brought the whole bloody garden'There's been alot of weeding since! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 13:29:26 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: WHAT??????? Message: CW: Are you actually saying that K used to be an edsel??????? AND that it's somehow 'better' now?????? Are you serious????? If the K is 'perfect' how could it be 'improved'?????????? This is, by far, the most rediculous thing I've ever heard a practicing or ex premie say......YOU WIN, Katwheezle!!!!! The Rationalization-of-the-Eon Award! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 18:24:00 (EDT)
From: Catweasel Email: Consumer Protection To: Mike Subject: WHAT,I didn't think this thru? Message: No,Mike I'm saying that consumer sophistication directly correalates with continued exposure to the product.In your case it would be reasonable to assume that you did not find the product satisfactory,either trading it in for a new pursuit,or leaving it parked in the garage.Others have eagerly awaited model updates ,but more importantly,have maintained their contact with the manufacturer,complied with all recalls[for their benefit],and continued with their driving pleasure. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 20:07:05 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: WHAT,I didn't think this thru? Message: CW: You are quite correct. I traded it in for another pursuit. I found the manufacturer to be somewhat unethical in that it made unfounded claims for its product and for the origins of said product. In fact, I found the producer and product to be inferior to any that I've 'experienced' to date! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 05:28:37 (EDT)
From: Catweasel Email: Motoring with Mike To: Mike Subject: No youdidn't think this thru? Message: Gee Mike ,you should have done what I did;get service regularily,stay in contact with your Dealer,and regularily update your vechile as newer options became available.Then like me, when Ford took over Jaguar,you could have updated to an 'S' series.As it is all you ended up with is a gun,and a lot of bitchin.P.s I know you dont hate those moose and deer,but I bet your glad their not that bear M spoke about at Amaroo? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 09:43:34 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: Bear? Message: Actually CW, I've been 'charged' by a bear (without provocation) while fishing in Alaska. I'm fully aware of the hazards of the wilderness and I take them on their terms. Unfortunately, I had to shoot the bear (I wasn't hunting). How close was he? Well, when he stopped his forward motion (from 4 bullets to his brain), his head landed on my foot and broke a couple of bones in it from the weight and force of impact. According to the forest service biologist, he had a badly decayed tooth and was apparently driven 'mad' by the pain. Normally, the area I was fishing in didn't have ANY bear incidents. By the way, ther weren't ANY escape routes.....I was a 'had lad!' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 09:58:52 (EDT)
From: Catweasel Email: You'll piss yourself! To: Mike Subject: Bear? Message: Have you heard the Bear joke??? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 11:00:08 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: No, I haven't (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 13:34:41 (EDT)
From: barney Email: None To: Mike Subject: was it a grizzly? (nt) Message: asdf Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 15:46:33 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: barney Subject: was it a grizzly? Message: barney: Unfortunately, yes it was. A rather large one, too. I really regretted having to do that. Grizzlies are (and were then, too) pretty endangered. Fortunately, they are fairly numerous in Alaska so I don't think I damaged their population much. Have you ever had the experience of a freight train coming your way at top speed? To this day, I can still here his paws pounding the ground and the sniffs/snorts that accompanied them..... I really thought, for a moment, that I had bought the farm! Thank goodness for my HANDGUN (Yes folks a nasty handgun....he he he). I wouldn't have been close enough to my rifle for it to have done any good (e.g. they can run alot faster than you ever imagined they could). Barney, for YOUR EYES only: it was a 44mag Ruger Super Blackhawk (single action) with an 8 inch barrel. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 17:28:04 (EDT)
From: barney Email: None To: Mike Subject: single action? Message: Well, it's true that in parts of Alaska you don't venture in your own yard without at least a 38 because of the grizzlies. Jeez, you got the grizzly moving how many times with a single action? Were you fanning it from the hip? You must be pretty good. Bet you're glad that you spent some time on the range. I get chased by dogs a lot and that scares the shit out of me. A grizzly can take your head off with one swipe. What I like are the stories about the folks who travel by x-c ski or something to the North Pole. Apparently, the polar bears are the only animals that will stalk man. These travellers can see these bears off in the distance and maybe not so distant. They must sleep with one eye open. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 19:10:14 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: barney Subject: single action? Message: barney: Actually, contrary to popular opinion, polar bears ARE NOT the only animals that will stalk people. Case in point, mountain lions out here. Although it is rare, they do stalk humans. California has had some real problems in this regard, too. I know that I have been stalked by two mountain lions, one I actually saw. The other I knew was there due to spoor and tracks. NO, you silly, I didn't 'fan from the hip.' I took aimed shots, recocking 'on recoil.' Yes, I am pretty fast and yes I've spent MANY man-days on the range in my lifetime. All 4 shots were to the brain and all 4 actually entered the brain. I guess his momentum just kept him going. I have alot of respect for bears. You are quite correct in your assessment of their ability to 'remove your head' with one swipe of a paw. Most of the time, you will never see them, unless you know how to read 'sign.' But, if you are in bear country, you MUST follow the rules to stay safe. They are INCREDIBLY intelligent and have learned that humans-mean-food. Personally, that's why I hike with a firearm. Most of the places I go have heavy bear populations, so I take no chances with my wife or daughter's lives. I've never had the need to use one for defense, since the encounter in alaska, but you just never know..... Been there, Done that! he he he :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 20:18:37 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Mike, Barney, Mr. Cat Subject: The grizzly bear joke? Message: There was this hunter who went out to shoot a bear. He sees one, takes aim and fires. He is certain he killed it. Suddenly he is tapped on the shoulder by Mr. Bear. Mr. Bear: You tried to kill me didn't you. Hunter: No, no. I was just target practicing. Mr. Bear: No. You tried to kill me. Now you'll have to get on your knees and oblige me. After the hunter obliges the bear, he runs back into town. He is furious. He goes to Mike's Magnificent Artillery Shop and buys a really fine rifle with a high-powered scope. Immediately, he goes back out to kill that rotten bear. He hunts the bear down, aims and shoots. This time he killed the bear for sure. Just as he is beginning to smile he is tapped on the shoulder by Mr. Bear. Mr. Bear: You tried to kill me again didn't you. Hunter: No, really I didn't. Please Mr. Bear, you've got to believe me. Mr. Bear: Don't give me that. You tried to kill me for the second time. Well, you know what to do. After the hunter obliges the bear for the second time, he virtually flies back into town. He is foaming at the mouth. He goes the Mike's Magnificent Artillery Shop and buys a machine gun. Immediately, he goes back out to kill that rotten bear. He hunts the bear down, and starts spraying bullets for about five minutes. As he starts to go with smug satisfaction he is tapped on the shoulder by Mr. Bear again. Mr. Bear: You tried to kill me again didn't you. Hunter: (*&^^^%&**((*())))))) Mr. Bear: You know what to do. I think you're enjoying this more than I am. And so dear premies ... this is how the world strips you of your dignity, but you are so stupid you keep going back and getting stuck in the same traps. In Maharaji's world, things are incredible. You only have to drink used bathwater and kiss toes. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 01:09:05 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: PT Barnum and Baloney! Message: No,Mike I'm saying that consumer sophistication directly correalates with continued exposure to the product. Hi Cat, Wow... what a quote. Perchance your 'Private Investor Pastor' has embraced the Group Dynamics, Continuous Quality Improvement, or ISO9000 curricula for his neophyte venture capitalists. Do tell, how many 2x2 Post-It Pads do the top sharks go through when multivoting for a new 'Vision Statement'? You know Cat, I could never figure out why local teachers had to scrounge for chalk, paper, and crayons because funding was short while all these 'Non Profit Organizations' go through hundreds of post-its, magic markers, and a rain forest of flip charts to reinvent their image. So what, Maharaji and K have changed the color of their shrink wrapped product? It's still baloney any way you slice it.... speaking of which.... Cat, me thinks your baloney detector is receiving satellite interference. I'll close with a bit of advice from Carl Sagan: 'These are all cases of proved or presumptive baloney. A deception arises, sometimes innocently but collaboratively, sometimes with cynical premeditation. Usually the victim is caught up in a powerful emotion -- wonder, fear, greed, grief. Credulous acceptance of baloney can cost you money; that's what P. T. Barnum meant when he said, 'There's a sucker born every minute.' But it can be much more dangerous than that, and when governments and societies lose the capacity for critical thinking, the results can be catastrophic -- however sympathetic we may be to those who have bought the baloney.' PT Barnum was right. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 05:58:01 (EDT)
From: Catweasel Email: Read what you said To: Mary M Subject: Mary'sBlinkem and Bangem Message: You confuse analogy with reality.In this case I dont experience wonder ,fear greed or grief.Just satisfaction and quiet comfort.I'm sorry you dont. I.S.O 9000 is simply an assessment tool.It's implementation indicates an organizations ability to deliver an internationally acceptable level of service.Some possibilities there ,but me thinks as usual you are 'drawing the long bow' You should read your own Carl Sagen quote,it applies to you and your good friends here! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 11:11:12 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: Mary'sBlinkem and Bangem Message: CW: Critical thinking is what this is all about and it is a what Sagan was talking about. It's the 'key' concept behind his chosen avocation. Without it, science isn't science....it's superstition. We never 'thought' about M or K, we just ...ahem... accepted him/it. However, when we started to actually think a little bit (doesn't take much, really), we soon discovered that we were being defrauded. There are many more plausible explanations for the so-called experience of K than the one we are expected to 'believe without question.' One of them is brain chemistry. Wonderful, glorious brain chemistry, to be sure, but brain chemistry nonetheless. Hand-in-hand with this idea goes the thought that consciousness, itself, 'evolved' and wasn't actually 'created.' These explanations are just as plausible and actually have more proof of their truth than the concept that M 'gave' you the experience of 'god' (or anything else, for that matter). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 18:09:05 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: Sucker;-) (nt) Message: lskjf Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 01:59:36 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Rob Subject: M's email Message: He is 100% certain of his experience, and he is equally 100% certain that anyone who is willing to put in the effort will have that same experience. There is nothing to debate. This is arrogance, Rob, pure and simple. Maharaji is not the judge of whether this Knowledge works for anyone other than himself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 02:20:13 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Jerry Subject: 100% Message: Maharaji is not the judge of whether this Knowledge works for anyone other than himself. No, Jerry, it's the experience of thousands upon thousands of people telling him it worked for them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 02:51:25 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Rob Subject: 100% Message: No, Jerry, it's the experience of thousands upon thousands of people telling him it worked for them. But he's not the judge of their experiences. They are. He only knows Knowledge works for others because they tell him it does. There are quite a few of us that knowledge doesn't work for. I'm not going to allow Maharaji or anyone to railroad me into believing otherwise. Maharaji is arrogant with respect to this issue. He is so full of himself that he can't fathom K not working for somebody. For years on end I trusted him that with just a little more effort I'd reach the promised land. Never happenned, Rob. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 04:36:33 (EDT)
From: barney Email: None To: Rob Subject: Millions sold - no returns? Message: Rob, The reality in the numbers is that thousands and thousands more people have left (stopped following Maharaji and stopped meditating on his Knowledge) than remain. Doesn't that by itself say something about the validity of Maharaji's Knowledge and Maharaji himself? Sure, you're probably gonna pull out some biblical quote like few are chosen or something like that, but the truth remains that Maharaji's entire product is defective and people quickly realize it and leave it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 12:53:39 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: barney/all Subject: Millions sold - no returns? Message: Barney, Hard to argue that point (re: who's in vs who's out) without actual statistics to hand. Not being argumentative here, but does anyone have access to actual figures? Maybe I'm one of the lucky ones, in that it does work for me, who knows? As far as biblical quotes can't oblige, I haven't read it. Did you like my Burns quote for Powerman? (cf CGI key=12BO) :) If you knew where it was from, you'd get the joke (and probably reprimand me!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 13:43:03 (EDT)
From: Powerman Email: None To: Robot Subject: Maybe Message: you're brainwashed and in a cult--your thinking demonstrates that. Do you think for one minute that anyone with half a brain thinks you're on to something? What a buffoon. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 14:53:21 (EDT)
From: barney Email: None To: Rob Subject: The Reprimand! Message: Oh, Rob, you shouldn't have done that! You should never view the Source. The Source is the secret techniques that belong only to the Webmaster. Rob, you is ok. As long as you stick to your choosen posting name and don't say too many bad things about the webmaster you're allowed unliminted free access. However, only card carrying Ex-Premies can get into the Bonus Pages. Certainly, as a premie you're going to make some enemies and maybe some friends, too. As long as you don't hide out and start sniping on your enemies you're ok with me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 17:42:43 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: barney Subject: The Source Message: I'm honoured, and I shall try to be a model guest. It gets tough to hold back, sometimes, when the flak starts flying (I see Mr Powerman has reverted back to beating me with a stick) but then, I remember a quote from you-know-who: 'You put your foot in the crocodile's mouth, you're gonna get bit!' But that's OK, I like pain. BTW that Burns quote for Mr P? It's a little ditty called 'Ode to a Louse' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:25:15 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Rob Subject: Rob, please answer honestly. Message: 1. How many people have received K in your community (communities if you moved) in the last 15 years? 2. Of those people, how many are still around today? 3. How can you explain that so many people quit nowadays, if this is such a powerful experience? 4. Why has MJ stopped telling people that he is the LOTU? Please don't deny that he ever did. You recently read the quotes. 5. If this is the ultimate experience, why aren't premies happier in their day-to-day lives? Why do they only come alive at programs with MJ? 6. In all honest, where has dedication to K and MJ brought you? 7. What reasons could you give me for going back to MJ and K? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 00:07:43 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Gail Subject: Rob, please answer honestly. Message: I will, but not tonight. I'm having a nippy sweetie all by my sen and my brain is away fer the night. Want me to email you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 00:21:15 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: freedom@gtn.net To: Rob Subject: Rob, please answer honestly. Message: Sure! G'night! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 16:07:54 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Gail Subject: Rob, please answer honestly. Message: 1) 2)> I don't have access to those statistics. Maybe someone 3) reading this has. 4) Probably because people in the West couldn't relate to it. 5) Because most of us are not in the experience all the time. We still have our fair share of life's problems, just like you do. Being with Maharaji at events takes us out of the mundane world, if only temporarily, and reminds us of what it is can be like to be back in that experience. 6) I think I've covered most of that in recent posts. See also latest answer to Jim up top. 7) I'll email you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 16:11:18 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Gail Subject: Wrong 'from' above Message: above posting from me, sorry, just a typo Rob. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 17:03:53 (EDT)
From: Webmaster Barney! Email: None To: Rob Subject: I'll be watching you! Message: Rob, My friend, you've have made a very serious mistake. This is going on your permanent record. Something going on there, a Freudian slip? Hmmmmmmmm. shp: [x] [x] [x] rob: [x] [ ] [ ] Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 23:52:54 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Webmaster Barney! Subject: I'll be watching you! Message: There's no way you could know I was wearing a dress then...is there? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 12:14:34 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Rob Subject: M's email Message: Rob: 'and he is equally 100% certain that anyone who is willing to put in the effort will have that same experience.' Well, if he would read his email, then maybe his certainty level might drop just a tad, now wouldn't it? If he gave a damn, he would 'try' to help those that appear to be having a bit of a problem, instead of insulting them at public 'events'.....yuck, yuck, yuck (at our expense). To use the excuse/rationalization that 'we' didn't put in enough effort is the absolute HEIGHT of egotistical thought on your part Rob! Who the hell do you think you are? Do you honestly believe that you have put forth more effort that ANYONE on this forum? I'm sick and tired of your superior-premie holier-than-thou attitude. Rob, your own words PROVE, beyond the shadow of ANY doubt, that you haven't progressed one iota (on your so-called spiritual path). In fact, I believe that you are less of a human than when you began your trek-to-nowhere! The only person that deserves more derision than an active premie, like yourself, is the person that purveys this nonsense..... Guru Martini, himself! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 22:10:32 (EDT)
From: Mare Email: None To: Katie Subject: LOTU Video Message: Hi Katie, The LOTU video should have reached the destination you designated as of today. xo, Mare Return to Index -:- Top of Index |