Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 51

From: Jun 5, 1999

To: Jun 14, 1999

Page: 4 Of: 5



JHB -:- Is He a Leader? -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 18:21:37 (EDT)
__Mike -:- Is He a Leader? -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:32:39 (EDT)
____nmw -:- Is He a Leader? -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 20:01:50 (EDT)
______Mike -:- Hey, when you're right, you're -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 20:13:14 (EDT)

Sandra -:- re: e-mail responses -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 18:16:55 (EDT)
__Powerman -:- Sandra -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 18:39:51 (EDT)
____Anon -:- Sandra -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:36:05 (EDT)
______JW -:- Sandra -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:48:12 (EDT)
________Anon -:- Sandra -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 21:04:02 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- Yes and no, Anon -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 21:22:18 (EDT)
____________Anon -:- Yes and no, Anon -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 21:46:40 (EDT)
______________Jim -:- Hey, don't get me wrong -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 21:59:59 (EDT)
________________Anon -:- Hey, don't get me wrong -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 05:30:01 (EDT)
__________JW -:- Sandra -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 13:41:41 (EDT)
________Gail -:- That's not really true, JW! -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 00:11:27 (EDT)
__________JW -:- That's not really true, JW! -:- Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 12:43:48 (EDT)
______Powerman -:- Sandra -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 10:11:15 (EDT)
________Anon -:- Sandra -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 13:47:45 (EDT)
__gerry -:- re: e-mail responses -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 18:50:15 (EDT)
__Mark -:- re: e-mail responses -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:47:17 (EDT)
____KB -:- re: e-mail responses -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 23:55:22 (EDT)
______Helen -:- we are bound -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 21:26:13 (EDT)
________Helen -:- we are bound -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 21:29:45 (EDT)
__________KB -:- wailing wall -:- Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 03:48:23 (EDT)
____________Helen -:- wailing wall -:- Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 09:24:26 (EDT)
________Helen -:- Jeez, I sound drunk -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 21:34:08 (EDT)
____Sandra -:- Not quite -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 00:08:56 (EDT)
______Gerry -:- Not convinced -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 00:29:55 (EDT)
________barney -:- DOWN, BOY, DOWN! -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 01:28:54 (EDT)
______KB -:- Not quite -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 20:58:30 (EDT)
__Anon -:- re: e-mail responses -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 20:48:35 (EDT)
____Sandra -:- To Anon -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 03:14:33 (EDT)
______barney -:- nice post, Sandra -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 03:59:40 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Fuck you, Sandra -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 11:16:38 (EDT)
__________Way -:- Sandra's posts -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 12:10:44 (EDT)
__Barry White -:- Maharaji singing -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 08:59:32 (EDT)

Way -:- Rick Ross' cult site -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 15:25:01 (EDT)

Marianne -:- Divine Org. of Women 1973 -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 14:50:18 (EDT)
__barney -:- out on a limb and DOOM -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 16:47:49 (EDT)
____Marianne -:- DT published in Denver -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 17:04:38 (EDT)
______barney -:- barefoot and ??????? -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 17:16:45 (EDT)
________Marianne -:- Succession -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 17:40:01 (EDT)
________Robyn -:- barefoot and ??????? -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 18:11:33 (EDT)
________Gail -:- What rumours about Daya -:- Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 07:06:42 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Trevinanand was a rapist -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 20:15:41 (EDT)
____Marianne -:- Old stuff -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 20:46:39 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Sure -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 21:57:08 (EDT)
________KB -:- Sure -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 23:59:13 (EDT)
____Mary M -:- Jim Please Read -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 00:19:55 (EDT)
______Jim -:- He was fat, old and dour -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 01:50:52 (EDT)
__Katie -:- Divine Org. of Women 1973 -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 16:59:31 (EDT)

Jim -:- Important post to Rob -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 11:26:27 (EDT)
__Rob -:- Important -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 12:30:45 (EDT)
____Powerman -:- Important -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 13:26:34 (EDT)
______gregg -:- that special feeling -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 14:03:53 (EDT)
____Jerry -:- Important -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 15:09:16 (EDT)
____Jim -:- Important -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 16:12:52 (EDT)
______Rob -:- Rebuttal -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 17:21:41 (EDT)
________gerry -:- Rebuttal -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 17:35:59 (EDT)
________Marianne -:- Rebuttal -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 17:53:28 (EDT)
__________Rob -:- Old news -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 23:35:11 (EDT)
____________Marianne -:- Carefully selected quotes -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 23:48:23 (EDT)
______________Rob -:- Short answers, getting late -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 00:21:34 (EDT)
____________Jerry -:- Old news -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 04:30:19 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Sir Rebuttal -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:27:05 (EDT)
__________Mike -:- The eternal lawyer.... :-) -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:41:03 (EDT)
____________bad guy (anon dont read) -:- The eternal lawyer.... :-) -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 20:15:31 (EDT)
__________Rob -:- I confess, I confess, -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 22:56:43 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- Rob = Shp? -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 23:58:27 (EDT)
______________Rob -:- Rob = Shp? -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 00:24:30 (EDT)
________________barney -:- damnit Jim I'm a webmaster... -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 01:49:50 (EDT)
________________Jerry -:- Rob = Shp? -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 05:06:17 (EDT)
____Jean-Michel -:- Pulling people away from k? -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 10:11:17 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- Interesting testimony! -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 09:47:40 (EDT)
__Jethro -:- Interesting testimony! -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 11:02:56 (EDT)
____Jean-Michel -:- Interesting testimony! -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 11:06:47 (EDT)
____Bobby -:- Interesting testimony! -:- Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 23:31:06 (EDT)
__Marianne -:- Interesting testimony! -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 12:12:00 (EDT)
____Jean-Michel -:- Interesting testimony! -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 12:39:04 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- Un-plugging the toilet -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 06:33:32 (EDT)
__777 -:- Un-plugging the toilet -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 06:58:22 (EDT)
____Curly -:- Un-plugging the toilet -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 10:59:40 (EDT)
______Marianne -:- Un-plugging the toilet -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 12:33:53 (EDT)
________Curly -:- Un-plugging the toilet -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 12:59:22 (EDT)
__________Jean-Michel -:- Un-plugging the toilet -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 13:35:12 (EDT)
__________Marianne -:- Stooges (sort of OT) -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 14:02:43 (EDT)
____________Curly -:- Ceintoinly! -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:14:45 (EDT)
______________Marianne -:- Moe's the Master -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:25:16 (EDT)
________________Curly -:- Moe's the Master -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:29:27 (EDT)
__________________Marianne -:- Moe's the Master -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:46:25 (EDT)
____________________Curly -:- Aw shucks! nt -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 20:22:27 (EDT)
______________Moe (alias Gail) -:- Ceintoinly! -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:38:11 (EDT)
________________Larry (alias Mike) -:- Ceintoinly! -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:43:10 (EDT)
__________________Curly -:- Hey Moe! -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:48:59 (EDT)
____________________Marianne -:- Pies -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:52:02 (EDT)
______________________Curly -:- Pies -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:58:06 (EDT)
________________________Marianne -:- Pies -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 20:07:50 (EDT)
__________________________Curly -:- From toilets to pies to tarts -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 20:38:18 (EDT)
____________________________Curly -:- From toilets to pies to tarts -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 20:42:01 (EDT)

Denise -:- JHB-Dream Interpretation -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:02:44 (EDT)

red -:- CIA -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 22:19:12 (EDT)
__Gail -:- CIA -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 22:32:52 (EDT)
__Marianne -:- CIA -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 22:39:58 (EDT)
____Mare -:- Was that my Cue Marianne? -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:12:49 (EDT)
______Gail -:- Was that my Cue Marianne? -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:28:33 (EDT)
________Gerry -:- MK ULTRA is a nasty can of -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:32:39 (EDT)
________Marianne -:- A&E re: J'town (OT) -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:39:00 (EDT)
__________Marianne -:- Temple members pd for J'town -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:46:38 (EDT)
__________Gerry It looks like its -:- me and u 4 great ladies tonite -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:47:50 (EDT)

777 -:- June 6, 1999 {M} Programing??? -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 19:32:20 (EDT)
__Mole -:- June 6, 1999 {M} Programing??? -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 20:23:52 (EDT)
____Jim -:- I went! -- kinda -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 21:43:19 (EDT)
______Gail -:- I went! -- kinda -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 22:34:31 (EDT)
______g's mom -:- Do tell Jim! -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:29:00 (EDT)
________Nurse Mary -:- Do tell Jim! -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:33:56 (EDT)
__________G's mom -:- Pay per view Fight.... -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:38:36 (EDT)
____________Mary M -:- Pay per view Fight.... -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:43:51 (EDT)
______Jim -:- The weirdest part -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 20:26:16 (EDT)
__Mary M -:- Next Step Bestiality ;-) -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 22:19:38 (EDT)
____DS -:- Next Step Bestiality ;-) -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 08:19:41 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Next step - lawn bowling -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 11:11:46 (EDT)
______Mary M -:- Think Again DS -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 00:03:48 (EDT)
________Marianne -:- Something about Mary... -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 00:11:03 (EDT)
________DS -:- Think Again DS -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 07:34:21 (EDT)
__________Mary M -:- Think Again DS -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 16:10:19 (EDT)
____________Gail -:- Something about Mary-- -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 17:14:06 (EDT)
______________DS -:- Something about Mary-- -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 20:14:59 (EDT)
________________May M -:- Think so? (NT) -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 20:23:27 (EDT)
__________________DS -:- On pot shots -:- Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 00:16:24 (EDT)
________________Gail -:- Hello David Smith! -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 22:31:30 (EDT)
__________________Double Space -:- Hello David Smith! -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 22:56:57 (EDT)
__________Mary M -:- M is a bigot -:- Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 17:48:43 (EDT)

Marianne -:- Divine City Feb. 15, 1973 -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 13:05:38 (EDT)
__Marianne -:- Divine Times July 24, 1973 -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 15:04:57 (EDT)
____dv -:- Yes there WAS a candle lit pro -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 18:29:17 (EDT)
______Marianne -:- Yes there WAS a candle lit pro -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 19:49:36 (EDT)
__barney -:- Divine City Jail -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 15:46:08 (EDT)
____Marianne -:- New World Order -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 15:55:41 (EDT)
______Mike -:- Mari, Mari, Mari -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 11:27:46 (EDT)
________Marianne -:- Mari, Mari, Mari -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 11:33:49 (EDT)
__________Mike -:- Mari, Mari, Mari -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 11:42:15 (EDT)
____________Marianne -:- I didn't know -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 12:44:43 (EDT)
______________Mike -:- I didn't know -:- Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 13:23:44 (EDT)

Marianne -:- Divine Times Feb. 15, 1973 -:- Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 12:51:08 (EDT)


Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 18:21:37 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: All Premies
Subject: Is He a Leader?
Message:
I asked Sandra this question below, but I would like to address it to all premies. Maharaji has claimed on his website that he never was a leader. Please read this and tell me if this claim can be defended.

If a person chooses to use language in a carefully prepared manner in a public forum, then that person has to respect the usual meaning of those words. To any objective observer, Maharaji is, and always has been, the leader of the group known as DLM or Elan Vital. At an event, all the videos feature him, he is the only speaker, there are videos and cassettes for sale featuring no one else but him, there are photographic art galleries featuring only pictures of him, and the only speaker is he himself. He decides when and where events happen. He is the only one allowed to dispense the only product available in the organisation, the 'knowledge'. He appoints all national co-ordinators, and all other senior positions in the organisation. He decides policy for the organisation. He decides how the organisation's money is spent. And everyone in the organisation jumps when he says jump.

Now tell me, with sincerity, how it can be interpreted that he is not the leader.

John
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:32:39 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Is He a Leader?
Message:
JHB: He isn't a leader, he's a nazi! In the parlance of leadership and management training, he's what's referred to as a 'purely coercive' leader. He's not an 'authoritarian,' he's not a 'coach,' he's not a 'democrat' and he's not 'passive.'

By 'authoritarian,' I'm referring to the characteristic leadership of one that permits 'other ideas and thoughts,' but when push comes to shove, he's the one in charge that makes the decision (and takes FULL responsibility). In this context, the term 'authoritarian' doesn't have the stigma normally associated with the word.

By 'democrat,' I'm referring to the characteristic leadership of one that leads-by-consensus, only.

As always....MY Humble Opinion!
The others categories are pretty self-explanatory.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 20:01:50 (EDT)
From: nmw
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Is He a Leader?
Message:
For an 'open forum' you guys certainly make it an appetizing proposition for someone to respond to your questions.

No wonder you resonated so well with those early years! Its soooo nice to feel sooo right. Reminds me of the days when I'd get into debates with born again Christians.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 20:13:14 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: nmw
Subject: Hey, when you're right, you're
Message:
right, nmw. So, let me put it in the form of a kinder, gentler question, 'K?

What do you call a leader that uses threats and intimidation? What, ther were never any threats or intimidation? Well, OK then, what do you call it when your 'leader' says that he's the lord-incarnate? Slighty intimidating, maybe? What do you call it when your leader says that if you stop practicing K you will most certainly fall into 'so many pieces' that no one would be able to count their number? What do you call it when your leader likens the non-practice of K to a truckload of rotting vegetables?

Get the picture? It's called COERCION! Simple concept, really.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 18:16:55 (EDT)
From: Sandra
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: re: e-mail responses
Message:
Hi Mark,

Yours was the only dangling thread I hadn't answered so I'll give it a brief go. After seeing the toxic nature of most of the other responses I don't care to follow up with those folks. I don't respond to abusive people in real life and certainly won't waste my time doing so over a dis-embodied medium such as this..

Have to take issue with your Milli Vanilli analogy again. It only works if M is incapable of singing. Maybe he doesn't sing to you any more, maybe you're just not listening but sing he does. He sang very beautifully this weekend and moved me beyond all approaches, words and theories.

Perhaps you view all the characters you mentioned being on similar stages or even the same stage...what a spectacle that'd be, all the Sikhs throwing turbans ( I teach the sound, no I teach the sound!!)..Sai Baba doing David Copperfield, a Vietnamese lady with a supreme spring roll from space, Christians prophesying doom, Moon holding a wedding for 4,000 and dealing automatic weapons backstage, a British dentist who reads auras and sends you into the 3rd Bardo as he drills your teeth and Satpal, old Satpal, laying plans for a new railway line as he manages to ignore his father, youngest and unimaginably more gifted brother and his son at the same time...Bubba Free Adi Da Frankie Dawn Horse Jones, looking frighteningly like Brando in Apocalypse Now, could try to scare the gathering into order but is interrupted by the bitter, elderly Krishnamurti who mutters, 'Damn, I had it all...what was I thinking!' Baba Ji and Sri Yukteswar hover, invisibly nearby, BJ thinking, 'back to the Himalayas for another 7,000 years. Ascended masters vie for premium airspace..the hors d'oeuvre table is overrun by Avatars, both visible and unincorporated. And what about the Masons? Any mystical group that can crown Gerald Ford as High Elk Lama must have the secret recipe.

Oprah, the giver of True Satsang, could host. Please don't put the channelers in charge of refreshments, I need a cake that incarnates.

Does anyone remember, know or care about any other teachers at the time of Buddha? And you know, Buddha had vehement 'exes', lineage controversies, all that crap. By the way, your lineage issue is meaningless to me as 1. You weren't there and don't know what happened 2. Whatever book you use at your source was written by one faction or other and is hardly un-biased 3. If you know any history, lineage debates are not only run-of-the-mill when it comes to Masters (Buddah, Rama and Guru Nanak, to name 3) but with royalty, popes, businesses etc. 4. If the teacher really does speak to your true soul and helps bring you into a moment-to-moment love for your own life, who cares?

You wrote, 'To me the greatest teaching is self love, and while M truly loves himself and invites people to join him in the bliss of his self adoration, he systematically hampers development( actually energetically, he steals the power) in his followers.'

I too, salute self love and enjoy it in all of its forms ;) but your paragraph tells me, quite bluntly, you don't understand Maharaji. You are operating off of an interesting but wildly inaccurate projection, which I know quite well, is very easy to do with him. I don't know if you've ever spent any time with him at all but we're not talking about the same guy. Self adoration, in the sense that you mean it, is not at all the way he acts or feels in real life. He actually sounds far more self-deprecating and humble than YOU do. Systematically hampering development? Stealing power? Nope. If you want to look at it one way, people come from everywhere to see him to steal HIS power. It's just his nature that he gives it away (here come the missiles) and doesn't seem to run out of radiance.

I trust him because he's earned my trust, repeatedly and over time. Doubt and mistrust are useful and, sadly, necessary as protective mechanisms for survival. We've all been burned and need to look out for ourselves. But it's foolish to apply these shields to those we DO love and trust. Fanning the fires of doubt can be applied to any relationship; husband, kids, parents, business partners, friends...you name it. You can trash anyone in your life if you look at them long enough through the wrong lens. Mothers and daughters don't talk for 20 years because of what turns out to be an imagined slight. Friends become estranged because one HEARD something about the other's love life. Through all of your clever verbiage, I hear what sounds like a jilted lover. I could be all wrong but I hope you can relate to some of this. I do, by the way, demand the highest as you said and I do, when I'm awake, get it. And I enjoy the hell out of it.

All the best to you, Sandra
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 18:39:51 (EDT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Sandra
Subject: Sandra
Message:
You're guru is ugly, and what he does is ugly. If you think you can peddle that horseshit here, think again. Take a hike.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:36:05 (EDT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Sandra
Message:


I don't understand how this sort of response to Sandra is useful other than just to vent anger. This forum has always been, at best, a place for debate and to talk openly about Maharaji and at worst, a slanging match. If you tell people like Sandra to 'take a hike' you are effectively going to end up having a one-way conversation. Personally I find it increasingly boring, listening to people slag off (diss) premies and Maharaji absolutely endlessly and I like to consider her views. Why not welcome premies like her who are obviously prepared to have some kind of civil chat? That way at least some interesting dialogue about Maharaji has some chance to develop.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:48:12 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Sandra
Message:
Anon, how do you possibly engage in a 'conversation' with 'Sandra' about Maharaji or his cult? I think it's useless, I really do. She thinks Maharaji is loving and perfect and he makes her happy and he is humble and giving and very sweet. This is Sandra's image of Maharaji and she is holding on to it for dear life. I can relate, as I once talked such nonsense just as much as Sandra does and believed it just as much. There was no talking me out of it no matter how much contrary evidence was put in front of me, or I saw myself. It was all grace and lila, you know. He is a mirror you know. It's a nice, closed, belief system.

I could relay the times I've been around Maharaji when he was vindictive, mean, cruel and acted like a spoiled child, but I don't think Sandra is open to hearing that. To her, as is the wont of most people in a cult, she is apparently unable to criticize or look at Maharaji objectively, has no intention of doing so. How do you have a conversation about that, without going insane I mean? I know it's a great idea, but I don't see it happening. Better to just let Sandra remain in the world she lives in and maybe sometime it might happen.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 21:04:02 (EDT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Sandra
Message:
Anon, how do you possibly engage in a 'conversation' with 'Sandra' about Maharaji or his cult?

I confess, I have yet to have a conversation with her..I just kind of felt in the mood to respond. The shame is I probably shall'nt have time to continue any conversation should it develop.
But JW, don't you find it a bit tiresome, routinely telling all premies to fuck off and to leave us to our own devices? I think it's fun to bounce off people like her. Maybe she is not receptive as you suggest, I don't particularly care if she isn't. I'm just doing my thing. At least she doesn't try to subvert the forum like some premies do.
Anyway hi JW, nice to hear from you.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 21:22:18 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Yes and no, Anon
Message:
But JW, don't you find it a bit tiresome, routinely telling all premies to fuck off and to leave us to our own devices? I think it's fun to bounce off people like her.

Anon,

It is tiresome. Mind you, it's also tiresome to routinely present the kind of thoughtful, well-expressed responses such as your own below in this tread time after time as well. Anon, beats me if I know what to do here. On the one hand, it's all so silly to talk about, trying to have a serious conversation about this buffoon a cult leader, the Lord of the Universe of all things.

Like yesterday, when I was at the satellite feed. I honestly tried to stay calm, pleasant, good-humoured. All I did was ask what Maharaji had said. Yet when the premies started telling me about Maharaji telling the aspirants that they have to 'accept' more, that they have to only ask questions to 'accept' not judge, well I started getting a little pissed off. What can I tell you?
And when the premie then immediately ridiculed me, accusing me of
caring about the 'roof over my head' of all things (even while he then quickly bragged about his wealth), well I got a little ticked. And when he then started scoffing at my simple, still-polite enquiries .... bah, enough's enough!

Anyway, you saw Maharaji recently? How is he?
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 21:46:40 (EDT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes and no, Anon
Message:
it's also tiresome to routinely present the kind of thoughtful, well-expressed responses such as your own below in this tread time after time as well.

I know..I just can't help myself though - I try to resist the temptation - I know that I sound interminably boring - I know it as I write - it's a very strange compulsion ..that is..to see how many way's there are of making the same point, preferably using the same words...and I know now (thanks to your frankness) that to continue would be to repeat myself needlessly..I cannot inflict that upon this forum. I must desist forthwith.

Maharaji? How is he? Oh..actually it wasn't that recently..like 5 or 6 years ago as a matter of fact.

I dare say if I went to a satellite feed I might have some sort of reaction too. I agree that it's hard to remain calm when faced with the full horror of some really sad premie frothing at you.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 21:59:59 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Hey, don't get me wrong
Message:
Anon,

Really, don't read faceitiousness into my comment that wasn't there. I enjoy reading all you say here. I'm just saying that however we discuss these matters with current cult members, we're bound to repeat ourselves -- a lot. Whether we're telling them to fuck off or gently reasoning with them. On and on, Anon.
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 05:30:01 (EDT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, don't get me wrong
Message:
we're bound to repeat ourselves -- a lot

Jim, you caught me at a moment when I was very aware of my own repetitiveness and I was actually rather happy that someone seemed to confirm my thoughts! I got the impression last night that I (again) may have waded in on Powerman's dismissal of Sandra (or whoever 'she' is) out of context. It made me rather regret posting that.(sorry Powerman) It seems maybe Sandra has earned some kind of reaction like this. I don't know. This made me feel that I should read a bit more before chiming in.
I think my posts are quite thoughtful because generally I don't have time at present, to enjoin (and enjoy) long, chattier style conversations here..I just occasionally use this forum to work out my feelings. I find the process of writing quite long essays a very good way of focusing my thoughts and I suppose that this forum is quite a good way to do that in a small way. It almost doesn't matter if anyone's listening.
As a lawyer you know better than anyone that to be able to argue a case you need to be very clear in yourself. I actually do engage quite a lot of premies in discussion in real life, and I find that this thought refining process of writing here (especially in the case of my journey) helps me to be on the ball.
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 13:41:41 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Sandra
Message:
Well, Anon, you are certainly free to 'bounce off' anyone you want to, or to engage in any discussion with anyone. I have only told one person on this forum to 'fuck off' on this forum and it wasn't a premie. But I HAVE given up on discussing things with certain premies because it really is useless. Consider this statement from Sandra:

I trust him because he's earned my trust, repeatedly and over time. Doubt and mistrust are useful and, sadly, necessary as protective mechanisms for survival. We've all been burned and need to look out for ourselves. But it's foolish to apply these shields to those we DO love and trust.

The above is an entirely circular form of thinking. It's infuriating, some would say stupid. But for Sanda, it's a closed thought process when it comes to Maharaji. She trusts him, and she doesn't question him because she trusts and loves him. Accordingly, if the trust is never questioned, Sandra will always trust him and she trusts him because she trusts him. Except to point that out, I don't know what else there is to discuss.

Nice to hear from you, too, Anon.
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 00:11:27 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: That's not really true, JW!
Message:
People come here and their beliefs are changed. No One agreed that MJ had said he was Lord and has changed his tune. Catweasel has made some consessions. So has Rob (said the Lord trip made him uncomfortable and he has doubts about MJ's divinity). Still, there is the problem with the addiction to the high. This is the real mental illness.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that people who got involved early on experienced more psychological harm because they believed MJ was the Superior Power/Lord in person. They have the hardest time being logical about the whole thing. People who don't perceive MJ to be divine can make up their own mind about what he says. They don't have to agree with his opinions. After receiving K they seem to stop subjugating their will to MJ. They sure as hell don't beg him for devotion or pray to him.

The new people are broken down before getting K, and this is very bad for their self-esteem; however, the belief system, devotion and long-term committment are not there. The people who truly suffered were the ones who were around for the hey days of the 70s.

Another premie in town has become interested in a new spiritual pursuit. I asked her if she wanted to go to Montreal and she declined. She got K in the early 80's, and never saw MJ dance or rant about devotion. She had darshan twice back then. Her next time was in '97 in Amaroo. She refused to read the material from this site last June in case it affected her faith. Right after Atlantic City, she got involved in this new thing. She made a smooth transition. She hasn't said anything negative about MJ and K; she is just doing something else. Although she doesn't seem angry at all, I can only surmise that her beliefs have changed since she wouldn't dream of missing an event before. Lucky her--16 years later!
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 12:43:48 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: That's not really true, JW!
Message:
Gail:

I agree that premies who read this website and read the communications here are probably going to be changed, even if they profess that they haven't. If you have been living in a cult and refusing to even let in contrary information, when you do it will cause anyone to start thinking. Some maybe more than others. My only point with Sandra was that I don't know how to have a conversation with her because of how closed she says she is to even consider the other side of the coin. That doesn't mean she isn't, however.

I also agree with you about premies from the 70s. Most of the people who received knowledge in the 90s have likely split. It's the truly programmed fromt he 70s, who still believe Maharaji is god, aside from what they say, that are the most likely to hang on no matter what.
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 10:11:15 (EDT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Sandra
Message:
Sandra is particularly insipid and insidious. She tries to appear civilized and well-meaning but her motivation is questionable. She finds it easy to post here but doesn't question the lack of a similar forum on maharaji's or elk's site.

She presents her thought process as a hectacre of freedom and comfiness, and her guru as an amiable chap. Not always on target, but he can hit a real bullseye when it counts.

Sure, we can look back and question things, according to Sandra, but then, everything looked funny back then.

You see, Anon, all of a sudden, I look at my table, and there's all this vomit and bile. And I look at Sandra, and it's dripping off her lips and chin. And she's trying to suck and lick it back into her mouth, lest someone notice. And she mutters 'Fuck you' as she's dragging this crap back into her mouth. But then she catches herself releasing her real feelings, and she says, 'I mean, bless you.'

No, Sandra is here to protect a liar and a thief, her guru. She isn't here to discuss, and her arrogance seeps through her words. She tries to be nice but there's a subtle 'Fuck You' in what she says. I'd rather her just come out and say it.

Whether she does or not, I feel fine saying it back, 'Fuck you, Sandra. And fuck your stupid, lying guru. Take your sack of shit and sell it somewhere else.'
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 13:47:45 (EDT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Sandra
Message:
You see, Anon, all of a sudden, I look at my table, and there's all this vomit and bile. And I look at Sandra, and it's dripping off her lips and chin. And she's trying to suck and lick it back into her mouth, lest someone notice.
And she mutters 'Fuck you' as she's dragging this crap back into her mouth. But then she catches herself releasing her real feelings, and she says, 'I mean, bless you.'


That's putting it delicately I'm sure! Wow what a picture.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 18:50:15 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Sandra
Subject: re: e-mail responses
Message:
Yes, Sandra, very nice, dear. Now run along home...
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:47:17 (EDT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Sandra/Sanford
Subject: re: e-mail responses
Message:
Sanford Pass.
It doesn't look like you've made too many new friends here.
But I doubt whether that is important to you.
Obviously you are enjoying your relationship with someone who you KNOW is the Real Deal. I KNOW he's not.We can agree to disagree. There is more than knowledge and devotion.it is no longer my picture frame for experiencing bliss.Being around Maharaji and Premies brought me down
Obviously,things are different for you. He is your Oasis and Buddha.Being in his presence blisses you out.

enjoy the gift.so will I.
but you should probably not provoke people any more.
people here are ardent seekers of truth too.

Mark
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 23:55:22 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: re: e-mail responses
Message:
Hi Mark,
glad your posting.
Barney says that sandra isnt sandy.
I thought it was.

I was thinking that since no one seems to have a completely
successful life and problems bother all people no matter
how they try to insulate themselves from any, that
(as poorly presented as this idea is) that there must
be a god.

We seem bound by a number of things.
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 21:26:13 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: KB
Subject: we are bound
Message:
You've talked about this idea before KB, and I have to say I agree with you. I'm not sure if it substantiates God's existence, but certainly there do seem to be certain laws that we can't transcend. We're human, we ARE bound by the human condition, by himan nature, we can't transcend our bodies, our limitations, and to do so almost seems kind of blashmeous to me somehow, like we're all trying to become God. Why has THAT (transcending limitations--becoming God) become the religion of our generation?
I haven't formulated my thinking either, I'm just shooting the shit.
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 21:29:45 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: KB
Subject: we are bound
Message:
I thought of the answer to my own ?--transcending our own limitations is the religion of today because modern people don't want limits put on them, we want to push it and push it, for example, genetic engineering. We want what we want, we want gratification without facing any consequences. Oh god, I probably sound like an orthodox Jew now, don't I?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 03:48:23 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: wailing wall
Message:
Well, the orthodox Jews run up against a wall and
they admit it.
Did you know that when they genetically clone say a sheep,
the young sheep born are NOT newborns age wise,
they start off in thier new bodies but they are as old
as thier clone parent. BIG glitch in our cloneing hopes.

Your right about limits. It really bugs me how much I was
limited by this ridiculous cult.

My thinking on the boundries on us depend on the day,
some days I can hardly see past the next chore,
one more boundry is that I/we cannot lock into a
view or attitude or state of mind and just stay.
The next invisible breeze can and does change things.
It's late, goodnight Helen.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 09:24:26 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: KB
Subject: wailing wall
Message:
Yes, I'm that way too. I can go this way or that way. But I'll tell you one way I'll never go again --'the path of total surrender to another human being'.
Yes, I read about that little gliche with cloning. It's not that I am opposed to technology or science at ALL, it's just I'm concerned about the ramifications on children especially when people start messing around trying to create life without parents in place to love and nurture. . My daughter was quick to have empathy for Dolly the sheep by saying: 'poor sheep won't have a mommy or daddy.' It is going to be BIG BUSINESS--genetic engineering-- and ethical concerns will be secondary
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 21:34:08 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: KB
Subject: Jeez, I sound drunk
Message:
SHEESH, I meant 'blasphemous'. I shink it's shust blashpemous what these crazy hippies are doing...why in my day (drunk old geezer falling off his bar stool)
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 00:08:56 (EDT)
From: Sandra
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Not quite
Message:
Wrong person, wrong gender. No matter what your point of view may be, I don't look anything like a Sanford.
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 00:29:55 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Sandra
Subject: Not convinced
Message:
So Sandra, show us your tits!!!
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 01:28:54 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: GGGEEEEERRRRRYYY!
Subject: DOWN, BOY, DOWN!
Message:
Sheesh, Gerry! I'm trying to run a website that is suitable for familes and there you go acting like you're still living in that Phoenix ashram.

I consulted with the committee and you're getting off easy this time. Your punishment is to go to this page and while sitting at your computer bow your head down, as if to prostrate yourself, twenty times in rapid succession.

God, save us!
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 20:58:30 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: Sandra
Subject: Not quite
Message:
Well, you used to show up in shp threads, but,
I'm glad you are someone else.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 20:48:35 (EDT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Sandra
Subject: re: e-mail responses
Message:
By the way, your lineage issue is meaningless to me as 1. You weren't there and don't know what happened 2. Whatever book you use at your source was written by one faction or other and is hardly un-biased 3. If you know any history, lineage debates are not only run-of-the-mill when it comes to Masters (Buddah, Rama and Guru Nanak, to name 3) but with royalty, popes, businesses etc. 4. If the teacher really does speak to your true soul and helps bring you into a moment-to-moment love for your ownlife, who cares?

Sandra, I understand how such issues as lineage debates etc. pale into insignificance when you are enjoying your life as a premie, and of course it's all vague, but not entirely meaningless please. I'm not sure I go along with your 'who cares? if your teacher really does speak to your true soul' etc. I think you will find that many sincere people, premies and others, are not prepared to overlook the possibility that some things that go on in Maharaji's world have had, and most likely still do have, exteremely prosaic explanations. We generally can laugh at our past preciousness and 'wishful thinking' attitudes which came from buying into all the Hindu trips (you know, like saying it was Grace that something good happened and the Mind when something bad happened - this stuff that was obviously the result of naive 'group think'). Some feel that this was just youthful folly or whatever. Anyway, most probably don't blame Maharaji solely for importing the religious ideas that they laboured under.

Now any sensible person can see that if delusions flourished unchecked at that time, then they can grow still - different ones, of course. Especially since premies are still not exactly busting to questioning what's going down. Who says Maharaji has got rid of all the rubbish? I have learned since being a premie for many years, that Maharaji does make changes. When I was 17, I would guess that I could have made some sensible suggestions, like chuck the Hindu trips, but that was not the thing to do. You had to trust and surrender. Now how do I know that he is not still giving bad advice? Answer: I use my best judgement..and this is not without feeling what my heart is telling me either.
My heart tells me to be careful. I invested many years in the ashram which were really quite weird. I seemed to sort of sink in my spirit and soul as time wore on. I value my life now to try to invest my time in things that make me happy. I found Maharaji crushingly authoritarian at times, and often intimidating. I have met Maharaji on several occasions.. not that long ago, and of course he is a perfectly affable person on the face of it, not scary at all. I understand that, but I have experienced quite a few things on the way that suggest to me that I should not totally trust everything that comes from him and that I should not assume that even my most precious inner experiences are neccessarily just thanks to him. Why should I believe anything?

Finally, About the lineage issue, or any issue for that matter. The books that suggest Shri Hans was an imposter are clearly biased, but then so are all those writings that suggest otherwise. Therefore, if you want (which I know you don't) you could consider both angles and weigh them up as impartially as you can. That is what I try to do, rather than dismiss the entire issue as 'meaningless'. I suppose that I have consciously decided that I will 'entertain doubt' since I fundamentally don't believe that my heart can be threatened by using my brain. I've actually learned a lot by being more open.
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 03:14:33 (EDT)
From: Sandra
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: To Anon
Message:
Hi Anon,

By the way, thank you for your plea up above for minimal human manners and for stating how boring all the abusive treatment is on this page. The people that post in that manner don't seem to realize that in their attempt to represent 'people who've moved beyond the folly of Maharaji,' they come across as some of the rudest, most piggish, close-minded and flat-out nasty people on the entire internet. If that behavior is an 'advertisement' for the benefits of leaving Maharaji, it's beyond pathetic. I try to see past their lame generalizations and hateful posturing but frankly, I don't like wasting my time.

Anyway, to respond to your thoughtful and genuine post I'll say right off the bat that there have been MANY things that have happened over the years that I've either disagreed with or not been keen on in DLM, Elan Vital etc. I have a lifelong aversion to groups and group think, including the group think I read here, which is far stronger than some people seem to realize. I've always been leery of go-getter corporate types, in this case, Bob Mishler, Mike Donner and Jim Hession come strongly to mind. People who say things that start with, 'C'mon everybody, listen up' always have made me leave the room. The only person who was a 'suit' in DLM that I actually liked was Dennis Marciniak who was always a very decent and un-hypey man. One thing that made it tolerable for me in the 'community' days was the general good humor and ability to make fun of the 'government' that existed. People DID talk about how boring a certain mahatma was or how over-caffeined Mishler was etc. There was a lot of cultic behavior then and there still is some now and I try and steer clear of it.

I could find a million things that I and other people did and said that would make me cringe...but I can also look in the closet and see outfits I wore back then that were eminently laughable. Would anybody really like to be stuck with the same hairdo they had in 1973? How many of you well-mannered gentleman would look good in your bellbottoms right now, hmmm? Would you want to be quoted freely from earlier times in your life? How well would your sayings hold up?

You can dig up all the old clippings you like. Maybe there never was a Divine City. Maybe it's damn good there wasn't. Maybe some people had the idea we'd be airlifting tons of lentils to needy countries via Divine Airlines, I don't know. Ideas come and go and if you hang around Maharaji, he comes up with many fascinating, sometimes odd, ideas on many subjects. He tosses them out, some come to fruition, others he ends up laughing about later. The point has never been perfect ideas. In my opinion, some of his ideas are brilliant and quite revolutionary, some are impractical, undoable or silly. If you spend a day with him, he's liable to throw out more ideas than the average Joe has in a year. He doesn't pretend that every idea is 'perfect.' As far as him being intimidating, I found that the moment I decided to lose the canned responses and tell him what I really thought or felt, I was waaaay more comfortable and he encouraged me to be myself, not some idea of a 'devotee.'

What's always been more important to me is what he radiates and what he ignites in me. That has been quite astonishingly consistent through all the external changes and I felt it as strongly this weekend as I did 26 years ago.

Lastly, you wrote, 'The books that suggest Shri Hans was an impostor are clearly biased, but then so are all those writings that suggest otherwise. Therefore, if you want (which I know you don't) you could consider both angles and weigh them up as impartially as you can.'

Don't presume to know what I want. I can easily consider both angles. Lots of stuff that's been written about Maharaji sounds just like Pravda to me. I'm bored silly reading bad poetry from the guy in Canada and the woman in Australia on the ELK site. The fact that they're premies doesn't make it one iota better than if they were Eskimos. In fact, I'd probably sooner give an Eskimo the benefit of the doubt. I learned a long time ago to separate what I read, or what someone tells me, from what I feel, intuit and reason myself. Let's take another look at the lineage issue and I'll tell you why it doesn't matter to me. Transpose it to royalty. Imagine we're talking about succession to the throne, okay? Does the fact that a king is the technically legitimate heir or grand-heir to the kingdom make him, in any way, a better king? Wiser, more just or a better ruler? Not in any way at all. What's the only real issue? Is he a great king or is she a great queen. That's it. There's just as good a case to be made that Shri Hans was the successor or wasn't...I have no problem with that. I do know that many, many people loved him and learned from him. No reasonable person would dispute, however, that Shri Hans intended little Sant Ji to succeed him. Too many people were there and witnessed that and Satpal just comes off as the Martina Hingis of the Hans clan.

I also don't believe my heart is threatened by using my brain. I use both quite regularly, brain more than heart if I were to measure. I try to use my brain for inventive, fun and productive endeavors, not just new ways to tell people I know nothing about to 'fuck off, donkey-ass.' This, I believe, is about the lowest type of brain wave activity and there's no justification for it. People who acted like this in real life would be fired from their jobs, probably beaten up in a bar if they attempted similar insults and thrown out of their houses by their wives etc.

Anyway Anon, that's my attempt to answer your post. That might be it for me here as I have no interest in impersonal abuse as I said before. You may disagree with all of it but it's me talking and not some committee. Thanks again for speaking up on behalf of reasonable exchanges. Some of the others are just talking to themselves and a more shallow, hollow conversation I can't imagine.

Have a great life, Sandra
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 03:59:40 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Sandra
Subject: nice post, Sandra
Message:
Well said. I'm sure that the dogs will hound me for saying that it sounded fairly reasonable.
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 11:16:38 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Fuck you, Sandra
Message:
Sandra,

Personally, I've got a whole different notion of etiquette than anything you're talking about. I've seen you haughtily dismiss ex's interest in ever hearing M address their regrets, concerns, confusion or criticism. 'It ain't gonna happen', you scoffed (or something to that effect). No, you can go fuck yourself for all I care.

And reasonable post? Give me a break:

Let's take another look at the lineage issue and I'll tell you why it doesn't matter to me. Transpose it to royalty. Imagine we're talking about succession to the throne, okay? Does the fact that a king is the technically legitimate heir or grand-heir to the kingdom make him, in any way, a better king? Wiser, more just or a better ruler? Not in any way at all. What's the only real issue? Is he a great king or is she a great queen.

Political rulers are human, Sandra. Maharaji represented himself as God. You're like, um, I dunno, 1,0000 per cent full if shit? Something like that.

Now that's not to say it isn't fun in a perverse way watching you do your thing. Go for it. But don't for a moment think that you impress as anything but a very selfish, myopic asshole. Ha!
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 12:10:44 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Sandra
Subject: Sandra's posts
Message:
Sandra, I agree with Barney that your posts are welcomed. Are you in the USA - you seem to be composing your posts in the wee hours? Just curious. I don't find you annoying as some others seem to. In fact, I appreciate your long-time knowledge of Rawat (and those other gurus too), and the knowledgeable comments you are thus able to submit. I have little quibble with most of what you say, so I would like to zero in on a few specific questions concerning the statement you make which I do find objectionable - 'what he radiates and what he triggers in me.' I think that this 'experience' is precisely what convinces some people to become a premie and to stay a premie, and everything else is beside the point. This transference or 'triggering' of a spiritual feeling is precisely what the guru supposedly gives the disciple. It is called 'shaktipat' in Siddha Yoga. It is all awash in grace, blessings, love, devotion. This is what keeps you coming back again and again to the fount, the source of true love. This is the secret that all premies know and which aspirants are slowly slowly let in on. Maharaji is not a figurehead, or a leader, no, he is the source of that 'feeling.' My inner heart is empty without the presence of the True One. I am a dry desert until I am finally again invited to Collins Ave. to drink of the fount, and then once again I find the only fulfillment possible in this life -loving the Master of Life. Well, ok, here are my questions: (1) aren't you tired of chasing a feeling that depends on Rawat's whereabouts to trigger it? (2) wouldn't it be more authentic and truth-seeking to search for the source within yourself? (3) do you really think that what happens in the Miami Beach Convention Center is any different that the high experienced at Promise Keepers or Billy Graham Crusades? (4) do you really know what you're doing enough to recommend it as helpful to other people? (5) is Rawat really the source or doesn't that feeling come 'whenever two or more are gathered in my name?' I would appreciate your answers to these five questions, if you are so inclined. Best wishes.
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 08:59:32 (EDT)
From: Barry White
Email: None
To: Sandra
Subject: Maharaji singing
Message:
He sang very beautifully this weekend and moved me beyond all approaches, words and theories.

That was me, baby. The big M was just lip-synching. Yeah.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 15:25:01 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rick Ross' cult site
Message:
Rick Ross has a website about cults at www.rickross.com/. Forgive me if his site has already been mentioned here. He keeps tabs on the latest breaking news for any and all cults. I've asked him to check out the ex-premie site and to update his records on DLM.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 14:50:18 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Divine Org. of Women 1973
Message:
Here's most grist for the historical mill:

This information comes from a DLM newsletter put out by the Chicago ashram, then located at 6950 N. Seeley. HEY JOE & YOU KNOW WHO! REMEMBER THIS PLACE? I do! It is dated May 10, 1973. It's a single page, and has announcements for Soul Rush, the arrival of Mahatma Trevinanand in Chicago May 21 & 22. Concerning Trevinanand's arrival, it states:

He will probably be giving Knowledge on Tuesday the 22nd. Please contact anyone you know who is interested in receiving Knowledge and urge them to come. It is best if they hear as much satsang as possible before asking for Knowledge as priority will be given to those people who have demonstrated their sincerity by attending lots of satsang and doing service when they can.

Next there's a pitch about selling And It Is Divine door to door, a service that I never wanted to do because it was so invasive. Here goes:

The 'And It Is Divine' subscription drive is proving to be the #1 means of propagation. Sales of subscriptions and single copies are picking up as premies lose theie self consciousness. The main reason for this drive is actually not to sell magazines but to 'get the Lotus feet in the door' and tell people on a one-to-one basis about Divine United Organization. Several peole who would never have dreamed of coming to satsang programs have responded enthusiatically to satsang in their own living rooms. If you would like to be involved in distributing 'the Blueprint for the Golden Age', contact the 'And It Is Divine' coordinator in the ashram or information center near you or contact John Ensign at the Seeley Street Ashram in Chicago.

Here's a section from the newsletter entitled Women:

The Divine Organization of Women, 'DOW', is taking birth in Chicago. The purpose of DOW os to enable all women to realize their full potential apart from stereo-typed expectations and roles. As one sister pointed out, DOW sounds like TAO which is just another name for the Holy Word which itself knows no bounds. DOW will be a special Women's Consciousness raising satsang. Both will be held at N. Bissell Street until further notice. Initial projects being planned are workshops in massage, dance, and vegetarian cookery. DOW is here to serve the needs of women, and needs can be as obvious as day care for children and as subtle as the need for a supportive atmosphere for women can share feelings and ideas and grow and become strong. DOW is Guru Maharaj Ji's gift to us, so it will become whatever we need it to be. All ideas, feelings, suggestions are welcome, from brothers and sisters alike. A more detailed letter concerning DOW will be sent shortly. Meanwhile, any premies interested in this service should contact Ellen Kirschner, at the Seeley St. ashram or the DOW coordinator in an ashram or center near you.

Then, in the July 24, 1973, Divine Times, it turns out that DOW wasn't allowed to be 'whatever we need it to be.' Read on:

Women's Group Changes at Guru Maharj Ji's Bidding

We have been fortunate beyond words to receive instruction from Guru Maharaj Ji (hereafter GMJ) about the way to proceed with the women's agency of DUO. GMJ has changed our name from DOW to the Women's Spiritual Welfare Association, to clear up confusion about what this agency is. In the title itself, the nature of the direction can be understood. We are not an organization which is a separate entity for women and which deals with 'women's consciousness'. We are an associated group of premies working together for the well being of women, which means the elevation of consciousness above and beyond the duality of sexual identification and the concepts which go hand-in-hand with this identification.

[I have omitted several paragraphs here]

The WSWA, previously known as DOW, has been established by our Lord. Its orientation and focus come from the one focus which governs all action and is practically manifested in propagation. The main thrust of the WSWA is to go into social institutions and organizations of this society (such as prisons, hospitals, women's groups, etc.) to tell people that the greatest event in history is taking place right under our noses, amidst all the decay and corruption, and we can all be part of this great event. The most practical gift of earth is being given freely to everyone -- the gift of love, the gift of survival, the gift of self realization.

In the next few months, the WSWA will fan out into the community, touching the people who are waiting to hear this message so that they may at keast have the chance to hear about the opportunity our Lord has given us, for most people are not expecting liberation to come in this way.

People are most often limited by their own perspective. If they are women, they might try women's liberation; if they are poor, they might try class revolution; if they are generals, they might try a military coup. And so, as devotees of the Perfect Master, we must communicate that these perspectives are limited, and that there is a vantage point from which we can understand the whoe life situation, unfettered by our own self consciousness.

[2 more general satsang type paragraphs omitted]

That's it for now, folks! More to come later!
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 16:47:49 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: out on a limb and DOOM
Message:
DOOM is, of course, Divine Organization Of Men;)

Out on a limb, I can see why Maharaji needs to desperately revise history with that kind of printed material. I had forgotten how out there it all was. Actually, I got into it in mid 1973 before Millennium. I had always suspected that it was even stranger in the early days of '71 and '72.

Further out on the limb: I can see how it can be said that a lot of the misinformation might have been due to the overzealousness on the part of the premies. Here, you've got this Divine Times, published in Chicago, and Maharaji is who knows where and is fourteen years old and probably doesn't even know how to read. And there were some intelligent premies seeking to change the world that moved things along as best as they could.

I would seriously doubt that Maharaji himself came up with the Divine Organization of Women. It was probably a woman, (duh!) and somehow she got Maharaji away from his TV set and mentioned the idea and he agreed without really understanding a damn thing. PERFECT!

Whereas today it would appear that Maharaji does have much more direct control over the operations of his smaller, leaner and meaner cult. Then maybe not as we see Visions being run by Wadi-Sue, the other organizations and businesses with their respective leaders. I suspect that the bottom line is that all Maharaji really cares about is having the latest and greatest corporate jet to fly around and being able to partake in the luxuries of being a member of the Mile High Club many times over.

Actually, there might be a lethal cumulative side effect to Maharaji's love of flying - radiation!
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 17:04:38 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: DT published in Denver
Message:
Barney: The Divine Times was published in Denver and came directly out of National Headquarters. The one page newsletter that I started the post with came out of Chicago, and was just meant to keep the premies up to date. I remember when DOW was created. I don't know this with certainty, but I think that Susan Gregory, who had been part of the anti war movement with Rennie Davis and was a feminist, had her hand in starting this group up. She was a good person. Also Carole Greenberg, a national person, may have had a hand in it. I had some fleeting contact with both and they always impressed me as strong, independent women. The description of DOW is supiciously feminist leaning in nature. I was very excited about it because guys always had the Power in DLM and I wasn't about to put up with that forever. Anyway, the article in DT some months later sounds like a GUY put the kabosh on DOW and got it a proper spiritual name and pursuit. No 'women's consciousness' for us sisters!
So, the moral of the story is that DOW was a creation of Denver and GMJ. Then, it got changed, for reasons that seem obvious, but are subject to interpretation. I don't remember the WSWA ever actually doing anything, but I do remember the 'sisters' being excited about DOW.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 17:16:45 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: barefoot and ???????
Message:
Obviously, a woman's place was in the ashram kitchen cooking a big pot of dahl. At least there weren't any kitchen fires like in the fatherland, India.

It will be interesting to see what,if any, succession there will be to Maharaji. It would appear that Hansi might be out of the race. And there are those rumors about Daya. And Maharaji has changed his tone a little in regards to the preferred gender of the Perfect Master. However, there is the youngest boy, what's his name? Armando? I saw him once at the Rez and he was wearing an iridescent cape riding around in the back of a golf cart driven by Marolyn. At the time (he must have been 8 or 9) he sure looked like the One.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 17:40:01 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Succession
Message:
Hmmm, succession to the Throne. Does Bal Bhagwan Ji have any kids? Could be yet another chapter to the Rawat family history.
I don't know anything about the kids. I left right around the time Premlata was born.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 18:11:33 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: barney
Subject: barefoot and ???????
Message:
Dear Barney,
Was it the golf cart that gave it away!!!! :) :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 07:06:42 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: What rumours about Daya
Message:
As far as I know, she is a beautiful girl with a great voice. She has a boyfriend who sings with her sometimes. She seems pretty normal to me. What do you know of Hansi, Premlata, and Amar? I'm curious.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 20:15:41 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Trevinanand was a rapist
Message:
I guess Trevinanand wasn't going to be doing any service in the Divine Organization of Women. He's the guy that raped a girl in Regina in 74. I've mentioned her before. She freaked out so badly afterwards, she carved an X in her forehead. Her sister's still a premie though. Nice.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 20:46:39 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Old stuff
Message:
Do you remember Divine Times?
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 21:57:08 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Sure
Message:
I've even got a few Gail sent me. Here's a sweet quote from Divine Times Vol 7, No. 2, M's satsang in London, 5/3/78:

That's how it is sometimes, premies. Here we are. And Guru Maharaj Ji, by his infinite Grace and infinite Mercy, really -- there a saying in Hindi that in the middle of this whole world, the whole universe, all these big pieces of metal, red-hot, are falling. And if it wouldn't have been for that Master in this world, this whole world would jsut burn up.

or:

And premies, its' not now -- not in '78, not '74, not '82, this century, Concorde, Rolls Royce, Mercedes, halls -- that brings Guru Maharaj Ji into this earth. It's you! It's premies that bring Guru Maharaj Ji into this world. And does Guru Maharaj Ji ever come into this world for himself? There is no reason to, because there is no point to. And yet, the only reason why even Guru Maharaj Ji is Guru Maharaj Ji, is because of you. And when you come, and when he comes, and when we all come, we make the most beautiful garland.

Then the maknind doesn't stink anymore! Then people love each other! People know each other. There is no hate, the genuine hate. There is Love. The Love fills, jsut completely fills, everybody's heart to the every speck there is.

****

And so now's the time to just let go of that chitchat. Now is the time to let go of that -- I mean, jsut even make that effort for even one moment. Just kick it! Not just sit there and it's like, 'Oh, Mr. Mind, will you please leave now? Come back, come back!' Or doing that trick of pretending your hands are stuck together. No. Just let go. Experience it! How beautiful it is, the power of Knowledge, the power of Guru Maharaj Ji. And let go of your mind.

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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 23:59:13 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sure
Message:
Classic heavy programming from the lord.
He made the trap so hard to leave.
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 00:19:55 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Jim & Katie
Subject: Jim Please Read
Message:
Jim,

What happened to Trevinanand? Could you give me a physical description of him? Was he ever in the New England area circa 73-74.

This is critically important to someone I love dearly.

Katie - This name rings a bell and if the pieces all fit into place we've the medical records necessary for full closure.

Thanks Jim,
Mary
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 01:50:52 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: He was fat, old and dour
Message:
Big, bulky miserable Indian guy. Never smiled. Liked lots and lots of heat. Bald, saffron-robed saint/rapist.
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 16:59:31 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: Marianne
Subject: Divine Org. of Women 1973
Message:
Hi Marianne - I sent this to you via e-mail (along with a lot of other stuff) but thought I might post this part (somewhat edited).

I've been reading your 'Divine Times' posts, and I do remember DOW (but vaguely). Mary M mentioned it about a month ago and I started having 'recovered' memories. Can't say I recall the 'Women's Spiritual Welfare Association' though (puh-leeze! what a name!!). I also remember having a few 'women-only' meetings/satsangs in about 1975 - it was great. DLM was
usually SUCH a sexist organization, especially with all those weird rules that Mata Ji (I assume) imposed on the ashram (only one person allowed in the kitchen and so forth). I can't say that Durga Ji/Marolyn was a very good female role model back then, either - I remember going to a women's satsang with her at Orlando and it was awful - lots of stuff about 'women's role' and 'surrendering' and so forth. BTW, I knew a lot of premie women who tried to model themselves on Durga Ji - even to the extent of copying her hair-style and style of dress! Kinda sad when you think about it.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 11:26:27 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Important post to Rob
Message:
Rob,

I'm giving this comment to you its own thread because I think it deserves some serious attention. You simply have to look at this clearly. If not, then, in my opinion, you might as well take off. Better that than turn into another shp, unable to rationally discuss anything and just wasting peoples' time, running circles.

You first claimed that you didn't doubt Maharaji in any meaningful way. Quibbled with some of the detals perhaps but that was about it. The only reason, then, you'd want to hear others question him -- and you certainly have an appetite for that -- would be so you could 'learn' something. He's got all the answers, you're just not sure how he'd explain.

In the same post, however, you offered that your doubts, if unchecked, could indeed take you out of this whole trip.

I pointed out that you weren't adding up for obvious reasons. If your doubts could possibly take you from k and M they couldn't just be over trivial or superifical affairs. Something wasn't adding up. In fact, I said, you must necessarily have doubts, real doubts that you're not willing to face. In the circumstances, it would be much safer for you to let others do the questioning but, let's face it, they're asking for you too.

You then replied, starting with an air of some concession and even trepidation, apparently. Unfortunately, whatever point you seemed ready to make got lost in your reminiscences. Accordingly, I'm going to ask you again to consider this carefully:

Isn't it true that you doubt Maharaji in ways that you try to ignore?

Time to get honest, Rob.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 12:30:45 (EDT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Important
Message:
Jim you're cross-examining me like a lawyer. I'm not a witness for the defence here, leastways not yet.

Ok, I'll allow you that, it's probably second-nature to you by now.

My doubts about Maharaji center around claims, both good and bad, made by premies, ex-premies, instructors, mahatmas, initiators, other gurus, the media, and a whole host of people with so much to say about him. I frankly get to the point where I don't know what to believe sometimes, and that's where the doubts creep in. Doubts about whether he really is a manifestation of God, or isn't. Doubts about whether I'm supposed to see him as my teacher or my Lord.

But Jim I'm glad you posed that question, because I really did make myself examine my feelings about him. I have no doubts about the experience of Knowledge he showed me. It works, it is beautiful and I want to keep doing it for the rest of my life. I have no doubts about his motivation for putting in the amount of effort he does. It's not for money or power, it's a sincere desire to open this experience up to the whole world.

If you want a straight answer to your last question, even though I personally think you are trying to put words in my mouth, then yes, I have the doubts I just mentioned, and yes I try to ignore them. I ignore them because I have seen people fall away because of the simplest, most insignificant things, as well as 'the big issues'.

There is a tremendous amount of energy in the world geared towards pulling people away from Knowledge. Much of what is written on this site, including all the little 'peripheral' activities (you know perfectly well what I'm talking about), other religions, 'anti-cultist' groups, deprogrammers, sensationalist media, I could go on....all these little spheres of activity would like nothing better than to 'bring Maharaji down'.

So to come back to the point of the thread, my doubts and why I choose to ignore them. When I look long and hard at my life, it is plain as day how much of a difference having Knowledge has made. The happiest times of my life have been those moments when I am listening to him, spending time with him and when I am immersed in the whole beauty which surrounds Knowledge. Why? Because of where it comes from. Because it comes from the deepest, most inextricable part of me. It is so familiar, it is my home. Yet at the same time it is also very subtle, and my awareness of it and connection with it very vulnerable.

It really is possible for my thoughts and my mind to come in and suffocate those feelings. It doesn't seem to matter where they begin - with the most innocuous little doubts perhaps, but if I allow them they do grow, fed by all the negative influences I'm exposed to and I have seen the potential to lose sight of what I know I really want to stay connected with. The really sad thing is, what do all those detractors have to offer instead? Nothing. NOTHING.

My doubts stem from not having answers to a few questions. I am sure I will get the opportunity to have them answered very soon, for reasons I won't go into. But even if I don't, I'm prepared to let them remain just as they are now - simply questions I don't have answers for, and not something I am going to sacrifice everything else for.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 13:26:34 (EDT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Important
Message:
Yes, Rob, pretending is very fragile. You have to be very careful with it, because any intrusion from reality can destroy it. So it's important to insulate yourself from certain people, and from the world at large, in order to maintain it. But it feels good. Better than having to face whatever starkness reality might hold.

So what does one do, when faced with this onslaught of intent to undermine? Why, show up at the place where one is most likely to face the greatest barrage of those elements, most threatening to one's precious treasure, that's what. Ex-Premie.org

Pretending also needs a designation. Imaginary friends are given names and so are imaginary delusions. That way it seems more real. Knowledge is really nothing, or maybe it's something; that's hard to pin down. But whatever it is, the guru doesn't cause it, didn't create it and really has nothing to do with it. Except to claim that he's the lynchpin in the operation. That'll keep you 'connected' to him. And we all know how important that is.

That's the biggest trick in freeing yourself from this cult, Rob... really determining what this thing you call 'knowledge' is. What it's qualities are, how you came about experiencing it, what it's limitations are, and how it's keeping you trapped.

It will take some courage, though. You have to be able to take the risk of 'losing it'. And it's certain from the mind games you're playing with yourself, that you have to exhaust some of that pretending you're doing, first. Then the risk will be worth it. Gambling the little 'shuck and jive' you're doing against reality, which you might not like as much. But in the end, it will pay off. Hang in there.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 14:03:53 (EDT)
From: gregg
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: that special feeling
Message:
That special feeling you have when around M and K: we've all had it too. Remember that as you read posts here. And nobody -- not you, not me -- knows for sure what that feeling is...neither psychology nor theology are exact sciences.

But look at obvious explanations first. One: meditating makes you feel good. Two: ridding your mind of troubling thoughts by simplifying your world view, placing your trust in a father figure, and feeling a sense of shared purpose with others...those feel good, too.

Are those all good things?

Is it possible to meditate without belonging to Elan Vital and surrendering much of your life to someone you kn't even personally know?

Feelings are good guides, but not when the intellect is consciously disabled. Heart and mind (not Mind...I might grant to you the presence of some facility of mind that distracts us from ego dissolution, a scary thing. Truth overlaps with cultic fiction; this is why it's hard to discuss these issues.)

Good luck in your quest for personal integrity and spritual enligtenment.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 15:09:16 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Important
Message:
I frankly get to the point where I don't know what to believe sometimes, and that's where the doubts creep in. Doubts about whether he really is a manifestation of God, or isn't. Doubts about whether I'm supposed to see him as my teacher or my Lord.

So what do you do when you have doubts and questions like these? I know what I did. I would listen carefully to M in the hopes that the questions, which were pressing to me, would somehow be answered during his discourse. I even considered the possibility that if he was the Lord, he'd somehow see the question in my heart (by osmosis?) and answer it that way. Crazy, huh? Lots of people thought that way. Some (including you?) still do, I'm sure.

Today, it seems, he wants to be seen as a teacher, at most, a master. Years ago, he wanted to be seen as a humble servant of God. At least that's what I picked up. According to the quotes that are frequently revealed here, though, he wanted to be seen as God, himself. I have to admit, before I saw the quotes here, I was unfamiliar with them. I knew the premies were calling M God, but I can't remember hearing M say so himself. Now, I see he did. I really should have been wiser because I was familiar with Arti, and its clear as day what was being said in those verses. Maharaji was being praised as God made man.

Can a man change like that? Can he call himself, and be praised as, God one day and then the next say he's not? There's something wrong there, Rob. A man cannot be the Supreme Power In Human Form, God Incarnate one day, and a mere mortal the next who doesn't even know if there's life after death. There's something very wrong there.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 16:12:52 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Important
Message:
Jim you're cross-examining me like a lawyer. I'm not a witness for the defence here, leastways not yet.

So? Rob, all I'm doing is trying to tie up a few loose ends in your argument. Without consistency communication's impossible. Yeah, lawyer's do this and yeah I'm a lawyer. Beside the point, really.

Ok, I'll allow you that, it's probably second-nature to you by now.

Thanks anyway but really, what are your options? To not 'allow' me to pursue the matter with you?

My doubts about Maharaji center around claims, both good and bad, made by premies, ex-premies, instructors, mahatmas, initiators, other gurus, the media, and a whole host of people with so much to say about him. I frankly get to the point where I don't know what to believe sometimes, and that's where the doubts creep in. Doubts about whether he really is a manifestation of God, or isn't. Doubts about whether I'm supposed to see him as my teacher or my Lord.

How funny. Sorry, I don't mean to be disrepsectful but, really, you premies are so predictable. You list every possible kind of person who's ever made outlandish claims about Maharaji (excessively grand or modest) but you omit the main claimant himself. What is this, Rob? Do you need to see the quotes again? You want some new ones this time? What is it? The fact is, he, more than anyone, set himself forward as the Supreme Lord in human form. Deal with it.

But Jim I'm glad you posed that question, because I really did make myself examine my feelings about him. I have no doubts about the experience of Knowledge he showed me. It works, it is beautiful and I want to keep doing it for the rest of my life. I have no doubts about his motivation for putting in the amount of effort he does. It's not for money or power, it's a sincere desire to open this experience up to the whole world.

Yes, yes, you've already said all this. Keep going ....

If you want a straight answer to your last question, even though I personally think you are trying to put words in my mouth, then yes, I have the doubts I just mentioned, and yes I try to ignore them. I ignore them because I have seen people fall away because of the simplest, most insignificant things, as well as 'the big issues'.

Bingo! What you've just admitted Rob is that you were dishonest when you said Sturday night taht your only doubts were about superficial matters, i.e. the 'infrastructure'. Rob, you can dance, dance, dance but I'm not going to let this go. I think it's really important that you don't either. Please admit that your post Saturday night was a whitewash. It's that simple.

There is a tremendous amount of energy in the world geared towards pulling people away from Knowledge. Much of what is written on this site, including all the little 'peripheral' activities (you know perfectly well what I'm talking about), other religions, 'anti-cultist' groups, deprogrammers, sensationalist media, I could go on....all these little spheres of activity would like nothing better than to 'bring Maharaji down'.

Filler ....

So to come back to the point of the thread, my doubts and why I choose to ignore them. When I look long and hard at my life, it is plain as day how much of a difference having Knowledge has made. The happiest times of my life have been those moments when I am listening to him, spending time with him and when I am immersed in the whole beauty which surrounds Knowledge. Why? Because of where it comes from. Because it comes from the deepest, most inextricable part of me. It is so familiar, it is my home. Yet at the same time it is also very subtle, and my awareness of it and connection with it very vulnerable.

It really is possible for my thoughts and my mind to come in and suffocate those feelings. It doesn't seem to matter where they begin - with the most innocuous little doubts perhaps, but if I allow them they do grow, fed by all the negative influences I'm exposed to and I have seen the potential to lose sight of what I know I really want to stay connected with. The really sad thing is, what do all those detractors have to offer instead? Nothing. NOTHING.


Now this is interesting. You should really look at this issue carefully. We've already established that a) you have doubts about Maharaji and b) you are prone to deny that fact. Now the question is why? Well, you've just given us the answer: you like being a premie and you can't see what would be so great, would you would get in return, if you walked.

Rob, I have only one question for people who say this:

What about the truth?

If you're willing to say that M's whole trip could be an illusion but it's a comfortable one and you're happy irrespective of the truth of who he is, etc., then there's so littel room for us to communicate. Is that what you're telling us?

My doubts stem from not having answers to a few questions. I am sure I will get the opportunity to have them answered very soon, for reasons I won't go into. But even if I don't, I'm prepared to let them remain just as they are now - simply questions I don't have answers for, and not something I am going to sacrifice everything else for.

Thanks, Rob. I imgien you must feel pretty funny about all this but Rob, you don't have to tellus about your doubts. Like everyone here keeps reminding you, we were all there once ourselves. You can't tell me that every single premie on the face of this earth didn't ask themselves in some small way what the fuck was happening when the family split up. That's just an example. We're really not all that different.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 17:21:41 (EDT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Rebuttal
Message:
Bingo! What you've just admitted Rob is that you were dishonest when you said Sturday night taht your only doubts were about superficial matters, i.e. the 'infrastructure'. Rob, you can dance, dance, dance but I'm not going to let this go. I think it's really important that you don't either. Please admit that your post Saturday night was a whitewash. It's that simple.

I deny that, your honour.

My posting saturday night was a true and accurate account of my doubts and reservations as I perceived them at the time. Upon further pressing from counsel for the prosecution, I proceeded to delve deeper into my own psyche and unearthed a couple more from my past.

The fact is, he, more than anyone, set himself forward as the Supreme Lord in human form.

Heresay, you honour. Inadmissable.

If you're willing to say that M's whole trip could be an illusion but it's a comfortable one and you're happy irrespective of the truth of who he is, etc., then there's so littel room for us to communicate.

Counsel is leading the witness, your honour.

You've made an extrapolation of staggering proportions there. Let me state for the record that I am not saying Maharaji's whole trip could be an illusion. I am saying my satisfaction with Knowledge and with Maharaji as my teacher for the past 23 years, is sufficient for me to tolerate said unanswered questions. Furthermore, that my personal ignorance in those matters has no bearing on the truth as it stands.

...but Rob, you don't have to tell us about your doubts.

and earlier

Rob, you can dance, dance, dance but I'm not going to let this go

Make your mind up.

Like everyone here keeps reminding you, we were all there once ourselves

Like I keep reminding everyone here, I didn't get stuck there, I kept going.

We're really not all that different

No, I think we're very, very different. But that's OK, it's a big world, room for all types.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 17:35:59 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Rebuttal
Message:
Oh well, Rob 's another sheep. What did we expect? Evasion rules.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 17:53:28 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Rebuttal
Message:
Rob: Have you been reading the posts I've been putting up that are directly from Divine Times? Did you read the article called Answers from Guru Maharaj Ji, 15 year old perfect master? He said he was like Jesus and Krishna. Believe me, there's lots more where that comes from and you will be reading it soon. I am writing verbatim from the newspaper. It is important for all of us to see what was actually written and said by and for GMJ, with his blessing, in the early days. As you can see from the post above about the Divine Organization of Women, GMJ was perfectly capable of 'correcting' or changing some facet of the organization, no matter how insignificant, if he wanted to do so. The DOW vs. WSWA incident was a concrete example I was able to dig up to illustrate that 'the premies' should not be blamed for what GMJ himself encouraged and promoted.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 23:35:11 (EDT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Old news
Message:
Seems my little cameo role as a would-be lawyer has roused a fair bit of interest. The inadmissable quip was from my limited courtroom visits (not, I hasten to add, as a villain!) where I have heard people say 'Joe Smith said this....or I read this about Joe in a magazine', to which the judge would rebuke with 'you can't tell me what someone else said or what was written about someone else, that's hearsay'

Anyway, if I ever get into trouble, I'm going to hire Jim!

Yes I have noticed all your old Divine Times quotes cropping up. (Personally I preferred 'And It Is Divine'). Guess you're not worried about copywrite infringments, I suppose, being a laywyer too? Anyway, an interesting idea popped into my head while I was reading your carefully selected quotes. You are making much of references to Maharaji 'being like Jesus, Krishna' and being 'God in a human form' and so on. Well, what if he is?

Now before the thread gets flooded, as it will, I'm not saying that I think that, in fact I've expressed beliefs against that. But what if we're all wrong and he really is? We'd all look pretty silly, I think. Anyway, it's just an academic point to illustrate how all your efforts at 'showing him up' are predicated on the supposition that he is not who you think he claims to be.

Can't you see the humour in someone turning up at the pearly gates, and there's M. in a white robe going 'Sooo, I'm a fat ugly greaseball, am I? Hmmmm.' Oops!
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 23:48:23 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Carefully selected quotes
Message:
Rob: If you want to sift through all these old DT's, and had held on to them, go ahead. I could type this stuff into the next Millenium and would still have more to post. There's so much garbage, I'm having a hard time deciding what is next. I am not showing anyone up. I am just showing people who read the site what has been said in the past by GMJ and his organization. These are his historical facts and he has to live with them, as do those of us who were a part of creating them.

I was a very devoted ashram premie, who came to GMJ when I was 16 in 1972. Were you at Millenium? Did you ever live in an ashram?
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 00:21:34 (EDT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Short answers, getting late
Message:
Sounds like you need to invest in a document scanner, save your fingers.

Millenium was a bit before my time, late 76 was me.

Had a brief spell in one in South London, then a few months in another which was 'off the map'. Hated the first, loved the second (for all the wrong reasons)
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 04:30:19 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Old news
Message:
...Anyway, it's just an academic point to illustrate how all your efforts at 'showing him up' are predicated on the supposition that he is not who you think he claims to be.

This is such a bullshit argument and you know it. Reaching for straws, Rob? Besides, in case you haven't heard, he's long since changed his tune about being God. Now he says he's not. Maybe he's lying about that. What do you think? Just who is the real M, the one who said he's God, or the one who says he's not?

Can't you see the humour in someone turning up at the pearly gates, and there's M. in a white robe going 'Sooo, I'm a fat ugly greaseball, am I? Hmmmm.' Oops!

So, what are you saying, Rob? Better to play it safe in case fatboy really is the Lord? Haven't you heard, Rob? He's already admitted that he's not. I heard him say so, himself, back in '85 or '86, and again in the early 90s. Didn't you ever hear this? Fatboy doesn't want to be God, anymore. How come?
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:27:05 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Sir Rebuttal
Message:
My posting saturday night was a true and accurate account of my doubts and reservations as I perceived them at the time. Upon further pressing from counsel for the prosecution, I proceeded to delve deeper into my own psyche and unearthed a couple more from my past.

Rob,

It's still a whitewash. The point is, Rob, whether you were aware of it or not, your doubts were significantly more sserious than you let on. But, let's not quibble. I'm not so interested in showing that you're willing and able to lie to protect your faith. (Don't get me wrong. I think that's kind of 'cool' and everything.) The main point is that your doubts were much worse than you said. And Rob, if you're right and you didn't know the true lay ofthe land Saturday night, sure, you don't lose any points for honesty but you sure as hell do for knowing yourself. I mean, if that were the case, how can you say anything further here with any confidence?

I said: 'The fact is, he, more than anyone, set himself forward as the Supreme Lord in human form.'

to which you replied: Heresay, you honour. Inadmissable.

Hardly, Rob. Hardly at all. It's called an Admission and, to extend the analogy, it's golden for the prosecution. Unless you can show that Maharaji was only fooling at the time or maybe drunk or perhaps had a gun held to his head, he's stuck with those statements as are you. Deal with them, don't evade them. It's unseemly.

I had also said:

'If you're willing to say that M's whole trip could be an illusion but it's a comfortable one and you're happy irrespective of the truth of who he is, etc., then there's so littel room for us to communicate.'

and your answer was:

Counsel is leading the witness, your honour.

You've made an extrapolation of staggering proportions there. Let me state for the record that I am not saying Maharaji's whole trip could be an illusion. I am saying my satisfaction with Knowledge and with Maharaji as my teacher for the past 23 years, is sufficient for me to tolerate said unanswered questions. Furthermore, that my personal ignorance in those matters has no bearing on the truth as it stands.


Again, Rob, better forget about the lawyering thing. There's nothing wrong with 'eading' a witness unless, of course, they're your own witness in which case you can't. You're the 'opposing party' or, if you prefer, 'accused' so I can ask you a whole lot of stuff.

But what am I doing here? This is ridiculous talking about this. The fact is, there was nothing at all wrong with my question that I can see although your answer sucks. Why? Because it's evasive. You say 'for the record' that you're not saying M's trip could be an illusion. You then say that you're willing to avoid certain questions (like, I take it, whether or not M's trip could be an illusion.) This is blatant Ostrichism, Rob. Avoid the question so you don't have to deal with the answer. Rob, you say you're not saying M's trip could be an illusion. well, I'm asking you then: could M's trip be an illusion?

Yes or no? Yes or no? If you say 'no', you're going to have to deal with the fact that you're making such a strong statement out of one side of your mouth while the other's explaining why you simply won't deal with certain questions. But what's your answer anyway?
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:41:03 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The eternal lawyer.... :-)
Message:
Jim: I love that.....yes or no? yes or no? Don't wait for the translation, answer yes or no!

I'm sorry Jim, I just can't hold it any longer....... Stay tuned for a stunning courtroom admission:

OK, OK, I ADMIT it! I'm the one that held the gun to his head and made him say that he is GREATER THAN GOD (I had him say that for effect)! I'm sorry.... I didn't know that it would go so far.... you know me and guns..... snicker snicker....
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 20:15:31 (EDT)
From: bad guy (anon dont read)
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: The eternal lawyer.... :-)
Message:
OK, OK, I ADMIT it! I'm the one that held the gun to his head and made him say that he is GREATER THAN GOD (I had him say that for effect)! I'm sorry.... I didn't know that it would go so far.... you know me and guns..... snicker snicker....

Mike, you should have pulled the trigger while you had the chance.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 22:56:43 (EDT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I confess, I confess,
Message:
Jesus H. Christ! Jim, I hope to God I never get stuck in the dock in front of you. What with your tenacity and my knowledge of the law, I'm doomed.

I was trying to inject a little entertainment value for those hardy souls who are reading along with this. I confess I know bugger all about the law, beyond firearms and self-defence.

Q. Could Maharaji's trip be an illusion?

A. No.

If that makes me a fork-tongued schizophrenic Gemini, we don't care.

You see, you are slick, Jim, but not foolproof. Remember it was you who introduced that question in the first place, and quite cleverly 'grandfathered' into place as one of my apparant doubts. Now it has evolved into a queston which you feel I won't answer honestly. Well it never was one of my questions in the first place.

Your question does not concern doubt or uncertainty about some aspects of Maharaji dating back 20 years and no longer topical. Your question is doubt about the whole enchilada, which I have never expressed concern over and won't buy into.

I know what your aiming at. You want to see me buckle under and 'see the light', declare my abandonment of Maharaji and Knowledge and enrol in a deprogramming course. Don't hold your breath, it ain't going to happen in this lifetime. You can bang away at your keyboard until your fingers bleed, you won't shake my confidence in my own experience and my feelings toward Maharaji. But please, carry on.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 23:58:27 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Rob = Shp?
Message:
So tell me, what's the difference of Rob asking if M's going to meet us at the pearly gates or shp? I fail to see it myself.

More later.... (band practise)
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 00:24:30 (EDT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Rob = Shp?
Message:
Wasn't aware I was plagiarising. Sorry, it was just a joke.
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 01:49:50 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: damnit Jim I'm a webmaster...
Message:
Almost, but not quite! Shit, we need at least one this quarter to get our funding from the CIA's MK UN-ULTRA program.

Jim, if you don't think that you're up for the job I'll go in myself and edit his responses, block him out from protesting the sudden about face and we'll have Gerry post as Rob for a while until we can think of a way to retire his character just like they do on television.

We'll send Rob a nice bottle of Scotch to thank him for being a contestant.
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 05:06:17 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Rob = Shp?
Message:
I think it was more than a joke, Rob. I think you were expressing your own concerns that M really might be the Lord. I mean, you do believe he's shown you God, right? Who else but the Lord could do that? M said so himself. Only God can show you God. At least, that's what he was saying so many years ago. Now he's stopped saying that. Now, he's not even showing people God, anymore. Now he's just a human being helping people to find peace in their lives. Have you ever thought about this, how dramatically M has changed his approach over the years? What do you make of that?
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 10:11:17 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Pulling people away from k?
Message:
There is a tremendous amount of energy in the world geared towards /pulling people away from Knowledge. Much of what is written on this site, including all the little 'peripheral' activities (you know perfectly well what I'm talking about), other religions, 'anti-cultist' groups, deprogrammers, sensationalist media, I could go on....all these little spheres of activity would like nothing better than to 'bring Maharaji down'.

I can easily understand that you don't like what's being said here and in all these other places you don't like! I've been a premie, and very concerned by 'negative' press.

But what's different now from before? As far as I can remember, since the very beginning when I came to k in 1972, there have always been people and media 'against' m. This is nothing new. And according to m himself, I remember I heard him talk about it numerous times, it's been the same when his master was alive.

So what?

But then you say people are 'pulled away' from k. As far as I can remember, I've never felt pulled away from k when I was a premie. I was aware of people having other views, thinking this was a cult I was involved in, but that never deterred anybody wanting to receive k. I've read plenty of 'bad' articles in the press, watched plenty of TV shows about cults, etc
And I've seen 1000s of people receiving k. I've invited quite some people to introductory meetings, I've been in charge of orginizing meetings for quite some time.
Do you really think that more people would receive k without all this 'negative' information?
Do you really think less people would quit m & k without it?

I wonder what understanding you have of the world you're living in. What's going on here is absolutely normal. What people think and say (or don't say) about m is absolutely normal.

I guess I had the same problem when I was a premie: 'why all this 'against' m, why don't people understand the Lord is here, how come this is so difficult for 'Truth' to prevail,' etc.

The answer is quite simple. And this website can also be seen as a help to understand how inconsistant m actually is.

(you know perfectly well what I'm talking about)

What are you talking about?
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 09:47:40 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Interesting testimony!
Message:
Here is an e-mail that I've just received from an Indian ex:

Dear Jean-Michel,

An old friend, R. H.
(name witheld), emailed me a link to the ex-premie site.

As the founder of the American organization, and the person who brought
the kid to America, I found it all very curious. I sent off an email,
making myself available, and received back an email from someone named
Barney who gave me your email address.

I did all the original satsang, speeches at functions, as well as the
first initiations in America. I was assisted by an Indian 'mahatma.' I
believe Saphalananda, an English chap, may have also been doing
initiations in UK at that time. I was only briefly in the UK, where
there was already schisms forming. I had been trying to avoid the
Christianity-like approach of the Brits.

Have you ever heard of Mouni Baba?

Well we tried to do something with some spectacular energy that was very
quickly shot down by people, Americans, with very little vision and
consciousness (I can certainly name names), and as such I rejected the
movement and encouraged those whom I brought in to do so as well.

There is a very curious 'secret history' of this movement.

I walked out despite the threats and enticements from the kid's mother,
and a touch of violence from the kid's direction itself. That must have
been early 1972. It was her who sent me to America from an India I had
never wanted to leave, in 1971. Having returned to India, the end of
1971, I have been there ever since, practising my sadhana, my
austerities, and my research. I am in the Puri lineages of the ancient
order of Adi Shankara, and teach traditionally the Sanatana Dharma.

(some personal information witheld here)

The greatest tragedy of movements like that of DLM is that it has
distracted so many fine curious minds away from the 'authentic' yogic
and shamanic traditions, obscure as they may be.

With best wishes,


(name witheld)

I've e-mailed back to him, and asked for further details.

I'm anxious to know more about the schism, this 'secret history',
and his version of the beginning of DLM.

Who'd have believed I'd received news from someone like him?

Any questions for him?
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 11:02:56 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Interesting testimony!
Message:
Hi JM

'Have you ever heard of Mouni Baba?'
As far as I remember a Mouni Baba is a saddu who takes a vow of silence.

Ther was story of a devotee of hansji wholoved nectar so much that he for hansji's agya not to ever speak again. He used to propogate by writing satsang in the sand with a stick. He became known as Mouni Baba. I thin Saph told me the story as well as other early premies who were in India in the first days.

All thebest Jethro
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 11:06:47 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Interesting testimony!
Message:
As far as I remember a Mouni Baba is a saddu who takes a vow of silence.

Maybe the guy got pissed off m making fun out of him ... let's see what our Indian friend's going to say.
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Date: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 23:31:06 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Interesting testimony!
Message:
Yeah, Jethro, Mouni Baba is the the 'silent yogi',the guy who wrote with a stick in the sand, who purportedly introduced Westerners Sita Ram and Gary Girard to Guru Maharaji. This story was recounted in the book 'Who is Guru Maharaji'

In 1971 someone brought Mouni Baba around for the Western premies in India. I think that might have been in Patna. Lots of premies were interested in meeting him. I recall him having somewhat luminous eyes. It was said that Mata Ji had kicked him out of the ashram and that he was persona non grata.

I would be very interested in hearing more of this 'secret history' of the early days.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 12:12:00 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Interesting testimony!
Message:
J-M: This is a wonderful connection. The questions I have are obvious, and have undoubtedly occurred to you. What secret history? What 'touch of violence' was directed towards the writer? How were the first trips to the west financed? Who handled the finances? What was the initial approach in the US and how was it squelched by certain Americans, and specifically, which ones? This person followed M. Did he believe him to be the Perfect Master? What were the details of his departure from M and DLM?
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 12:39:04 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Interesting testimony!
Message:
This is approximately what I've asked him, plus details about the 'schism', the relation to the tradition he's from...

wait & see!
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 06:33:32 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Un-plugging the toilet
Message:
REcently at a program in Miami Maharaji was probably pointing at this forum as as TOILET that is plugged up,and about to overflow.
We are all standing around it praying that it does not completely run out on to the floor.

To me this is correct , I mean this toilet over here has been stopped up for awhile now. And judging from much of the posts here by people who have so much of what is so very common now adays. And is so evadent through history ,especially with hate groups and kkk...etc...is ...HATE.

HATE...ANGER...JEALOUSY are what is floating in this toilet.

Some one anyone please get the PLUNGER!


I've really laughed a lot reading that post. I guess I can understand some of m's theories, not that they mean anything at all (how can they?),
but WHY he keeps saying stupid things like this.

Like what he said in his last discourse about love and hate.
Maybe you can say hate is a feeling opposite to love, but that's all.
What HE's trying to say is that if premies are not in 'that' love, they'll fall in 'hate'.
Which is obviously one more stupid thing.
Love is one of the many feelings you can have, hate is also one of them, and there are so many other feelings and other things you can do beside being focused on 'that love'!

What this toilet's plunger story also shows, is how far m still is from reality.

He can't understand (like so many premies who've been posting on this Forum)
why some exes go through anger feelings. They've explained it themselves, and I won't say anything about it.

The reason why m and premies can't understand it, is simply because they'd have to admit they're in a cult! Of course they can't.

As their explanation then has to bring some rationalization for this, m (and premies) bring that old 'mind' back in the form of hate.

But I tell you, Mr Prempal Rawat, you're really as stupid a turd as ever.

Nothing is going to explode here, there are no blocked toilets, and the only thing this forum and this website does is helping your ex-followers venting their feelings and coming to term with the stupid theories you've hammered in their cranium.

More truth will be revealed about your past, and the only thing that might explode I guess is your fat ass!

You've retained 25 years of BS and lies, and that has to come out.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 06:58:22 (EDT)
From: 777
Email: no
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Un-plugging the toilet
Message:
Well said!

And, 'yes'.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 10:59:40 (EDT)
From: Curly
Email: None
To: Jean Michel
Subject: Un-plugging the toilet
Message:
That event's focus was completely scathological.
Before the toilet speech in which I thought he was just trying to be funny (which in my humble opinion, I found him not. This guy has absolutely no idea about comedy), he went on for about ten or fifteen minutes about the choice between taking a shit and flying a kite.
Premies found him hilarious. I felt embarrassed to be there (I was invited and therefore a 'victim of circoimstance')
I couldn't believe how anyone would pay twenty bucks to hear this shit. Anyway, I don't know if he was making a point about this forum (Of which I can only say I find iluminating) because at the time I was not aware it existed.
So nyuks to him and wooop woop woop to you guys (and I meant that in a positive way)

Carry on,
Curly
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 12:33:53 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Curly
Subject: Un-plugging the toilet
Message:
Hi Curly. How did you find out about the Forum? As an aside, I want you to know that my husband actually saw the 3 Stooges perform in person in San Francisco in the early 1960's. Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk to you, too. And mememememeemmeeeeeee,,,,
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 12:59:22 (EDT)
From: Curly
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Un-plugging the toilet
Message:
I bumped into it clonk! arf arf.
But seriously, I am an ex aspirant who just couldn't take all the groveling and dribbling in front of Belkin and say pretty pleaseplease please Mr. Guru and kiss his ass (btw I loved Father Love's journey he descibed that process all to well). Too many people who were rejected along with me last year were crying (not me though) and I don't think that's a nice thing to do to anyone. Anyway that quenched my thirst, that's for sure.
Besides this all I can say is that I envy your husband those were true perfect masters. Which Curly did he see?
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 13:35:12 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Curly
Subject: Un-plugging the toilet
Message:
and I don't think that's a nice thing to do to anyone

Do you realized what you've been saved from by Belkis Shah?

I'm glad so many people are actually rejected!
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 14:02:43 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Curly
Subject: Stooges (sort of OT)
Message:
Hey Curly! Congratulations on escaping cultism. Scroll down the Forum a bit and read the posts about the old Divine Times newsletter, when Maharaji was God and we were going to build a Divine City. It was also when meditation could cure you of evil sexual desires!
My husband reports that he saw Curly Joe. 'The real Curly had been dead for a long time when I saw the 3 Stooges, ' he says. I have always been proud of the fact that my husband saw them live. I grew up in rural areas in upstate NY and Michigan, and thought you could only see them on TV. He says that they were piss in your pants hilarious. Oh, I am so deprived!
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:14:45 (EDT)
From: Curly
Email: None
To: Marianne and Jean Michel
Subject: Ceintoinly!
Message:
Well, if your husband had seen the original Curly Howard, I guess that would make him eighty years old or so. Did he see them in the 70's? Moe milked that act as much as he could. It wouldn't surprise me.
I agree that I should thank Belkin, but on the other hand I don't think 'knoiledge' would have done shit for me. Being a SAP (Stooge Around Premies), I get accosted to go to events and the like, and actually treated to that Miami thing. If there hadn't been a thunderstorm I would have much rather gone to the beach.
Anyway, like I said I am a SAP and they know this site is around. Don't want to blow my cover if you know what I mean. Besides, I consider Curly a much more handsome bloke than myself. Think of him while you read this.
BTW don't you think that this eye poking is curiously similar to the light technique?
Dwoop wooop wooop wooop
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:25:16 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Curly
Subject: Moe's the Master
Message:
Curly: No, he definately saw them in the early '60's when he was 6 or so. One of his older sisters confirms it.
Now that you mention it, the eye poking thing is just like the Stooges. No wonder I took to it so easily! Just reverting to those Saturdays in front of the tube as a kid in the 50's and 60's!
Yours in yukville, Marianne
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:29:27 (EDT)
From: Curly
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Moe's the Master
Message:
Ooooh marry me please!
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:46:25 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Curly
Subject: Moe's the Master
Message:
Curly: I don't think my husband would agree to it. You have certainly displayed superior intelligence by avoiding the cult pitfall, something I was unable to do, and that makes you highly desirable.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 20:22:27 (EDT)
From: Curly
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Aw shucks! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:38:11 (EDT)
From: Moe (alias Gail)
Email: None
To: Curly
Subject: Ceintoinly!
Message:
Glad you could drop by. Where's Larry?
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:43:10 (EDT)
From: Larry (alias Mike)
Email: None
To: Moe (alias Gail)
Subject: Ceintoinly!
Message:
If you saw my hair today, you'd KNOW it was true!
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:48:59 (EDT)
From: Curly
Email: None
To: Larry and Moe
Subject: Hey Moe!
Message:
Cool! This is the Maharaji-Stooge site now.
Anyone got any cream pies?
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:52:02 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Curly
Subject: Pies
Message:
Curly: do you know that Maharaji was once hit with a cream pie in Detroit in 1973?
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 19:58:06 (EDT)
From: Curly
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Pies
Message:
A stooge fan, I presume?
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 20:07:50 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Curly
Subject: Pies
Message:
Apparently so!
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 20:38:18 (EDT)
From: Curly
Email: None
To: Jean Michel
Subject: From toilets to pies to tarts
Message:
Well this thread has ceitoinly toined around. Sorry Jean Michel. I was really trying to comment on the plugged toilet thing. That plus the flying kites and taking a shit dilema of his made me think at the moment that he was trying to be funny in a kindergarten poo poo pee pee sort of way. Then again, I'm not that well informed on the issue.
Have you seen the event? Anyone? I'm actually curious about what this meant.
BTW While I was in Miami (Biscayne bet. 115th and 116th streets)
I saw this billboard for Chevron which featured a grining car (not unlike most people at the event) with an open hood out of which a grining engine popped out (third eye?) and a caption that read: 'Happiness comes from within'.
Is Elan Vital doing ad campaigns now?
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 20:42:01 (EDT)
From: Curly
Email: None
To: Curly
Subject: From toilets to pies to tarts
Message:
Oh, I almost forgot. The tart part. I don't want to be ofensive but I want to say that Belkin was one of the least charming people I've ever met. What's her story?
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:02:44 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: JHB-Dream Interpretation
Message:
JHB- Haven't had the chance to read the Forum too much lately, so just noticed your request for dream interpretation and as I answered it went inactive. You might want to check it out on the inactive index, I was as thorough as possible. Hope it helps...

Jai Satchitananda, *Denise
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 22:19:12 (EDT)
From: red
Email: @under the bed.com
To: Everyone
Subject: CIA
Message:
Back in early 70's heard stories CIA funding of DLM.Anyone have any info?
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 22:32:52 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: red
Subject: CIA
Message:
Ya, I think the plot was to wipe out the minds of America's youth.
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 22:39:58 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: red
Subject: CIA
Message:
There were rumors that Divine Light Mission was part of a mind control experiment. There were also rumors that Peoples Temple and Jonestown were part of an CIA sponsored mind control experiment that went awry. Jim Jones spent a few years in Belo Horizonte, Brazil during the early 60's. During that time, famed CIA mole Dan Mitrione was operating in South America, teaching the police how to 'deal' with rebel insurgents --- Che, and other developing rebel groups in Colombia, Brazil, Chile, etc. Jim Jones had some unusual contacts with the American Embassy when he was in Belo Horizonte that I learned about when I worked on Larry Layton's trial for conspiring to murder Congressman Ryan as he left Jonestown. Anyway, the mind control experiments were part of the CIA program that did exist, called MK ULTRA. There were congressional hearings into MK ULTRA in the 70's, I think. You can get copies of the public testimony about MK ULTRA from Congress or a government bookstore, I think. There are probably websites about it.
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:12:49 (EDT)
From: Mare
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Was that my Cue Marianne?
Message:
;-)

Too tired to get into a thorough search but this guy 'Dave' has a reference to the CIA Site with a little ditty he added, 'Can you say MK ULTRA? I knew you could.'

Scroll down his site and you'll see the hyperlink to the CIA. It's under 'Other Government Stuff'.

MK ULTRA

Luv,
Mare
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:28:33 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Mare
Subject: Was that my Cue Marianne?
Message:
A & E ran a biography on the Jonestown trip and implicated the CIA for funding Jones.
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:32:39 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: all
Subject: MK ULTRA is a nasty can of
Message:
worms and I'm glad someone brought it up. It's important, but not for the faint of heart.
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:39:00 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: A&E re: J'town (OT)
Message:
I saw the recent program they did. It's full of people I know. Given the access I had to information about Peoples Temple and Jonestown for the trial --- I had to get a high level security clearance from the federal government -- I think I know more about it than A&E could find out. I don't mean to sound all knowing, but we could never be certain if there was CIA involvement with Jonestown. There were some clues but nothing solid. There were a couple of people who really promoted this theory but had no hard evidence. The head of the American Embassy in Georgetown, Guyana seemed to be the CIA station head for that area. His name was Richard Dwyer. He was shot at the airstrip too, but survived. The judge who heard the case refused to let us ask Dwyer if he was a CIA agent during the trial at the request of the prosecutors. MK ULTRA was a real program though. I think it was the program where they gave LSD to people without telling them, among other little evils for which the CIA is so famous.
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:46:38 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Temple members pd for J'town
Message:
Also, the money for Jonestown came from the hard working members of Peoples Temple, who lived similarly to ashram members and worked just as hard. Jim Jones got money from the members in all the ways we know so well, and threw in fake healings in order to line his purse even more. Jones didn't go in for quite the ostentatious lifestyle as M. though. He just went totally insane and wanted his own private dictatorship. I have a tape that he made of the mass suicide. It's horrifying. the point is, the CIA did not pay for Jonestown. the Guyanese government encouraged the settlement too because they wanted to settle the interior of the country. It is dense, dense jungle. Not exactly the place for folks from the hard streets of San Francisco. It was impossible to escape.
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:47:50 (EDT)
From: Gerry It looks like its
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: me and u 4 great ladies tonite
Message:
Wonder where Rob and Jim went? Hey maybe Rob took Jim to the hospital for his stiches!!!
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 19:32:20 (EDT)
From: 777
Email: no
To: Everyone
Subject: June 6, 1999 {M} Programing???
Message:
Mar del Plata, 05 June 1999

A report from Glen Whittaker

There have not been too many events this year, so Argentina seemed a very, very attractive option. Fares from the UK - around £350 (pounds) - were lower than usual, hotels cheap and plentiful, so once again yearning hearts travelled south, bumping into old friends at check-in desks and immigration lines. Expectation, joy, anticipation excitement - the brew is heady and becomes more potent as the magic time approached.

Argentina has many beautiful sights to offer: a golden sunrise over the river estuary, an infinity of verdant 'pampas', the smooth Atlantic rollers crashing onto the deserted expanses of Mar del Plata beaches.

ENTHUSIASTIC WELCOME
But none so beautiful, for me, as that magical sight when after a showing of the video 'Fulfilment' and to the enthusiastic welcome of 3,000 South American people with Knowledge and aspirants, Maharaji, tanned, serene, appeared from behind a backdrop of soft green foliage to sit and remind us straightaway that every day is an opportunity for going deeper into the beauty Knowledge offers.

This was a great, beautiful, strong and loving presentation. The audience sensed that every word was to be savoured. This vast attention was interrupted by laughter at his humour and applause when he made a particularly strong statement.

First he talked about the contradictions within us: there is love; there is hate. There is clarity; there is also confusion. Should we accept it is like that and not seek out one above the other? If there is a mine and we are told that in the mine there is lots of gold, but also lots of mud, isn't it worth it to throw out the mud, and go for the gold? And the tool to reach this gold within - actually is far more precious than gold - it is Knowledge.

ONLY THE BREATH
And of course he talked about life. Flying over the Amazon to get here he thought about what would happen if he crashed and was stranded alone in that jungle. And he realised that he would have to learn all over again about how to live. No TV, no magazines, no food in the fridge waiting to be eaten. Instead HE would be the food waiting to be eaten. But what would he have at that time?

Only the breath, only the life, only the clarity, only the joy. And what is the use of everything else if we don't have that?

He reminded us, as he always does, that this is our time. How he laughs when people talk of doomsday on the one hand, and how everything will go on forever on the other. Because this is our time. We are fascinated by past times without valuing the time we have now. Tourists go to the Pyramids to stare and admire. But at the time if they stood and admired, they would be told to get back to work. What was fascinating to those ancient Egyptians was the mystery of this breath. Ironically, now we are fascinated by what they built, not what they were fascinated by.

SURPRISE EVENT
And so he went on, every word a drop of liquid gold, until an hour had passed and he was taking his leave, but not without dropping one big surprise: tomorrow at 11am there will be an extra event - a participation meeting, and of course, we were all invited. It was a deeply enjoyable evening - the air was palpable with a sense of hearts full, of expectations fulfilled, of joy everywhere.

THE BOOK OF THE HEART
Before leaving he reminded us that he has no need to quote any scriptures, for he quotes from 'the book of the heart'. He said that his master reminded him that everything he needed to know was in that book, which opened when he took his first breath. When his consciousness awoke he began to read it - a book with no beginning and no end, with no correction or editing needed.

And was he special in doing this? No. Every human being, he said, has their own book of the heart.

And he recommended that we all do some reading.

... {(M)}, ... he was taking his leave, but not without dropping one big surprise: tomorrow at 11am there will be an extra event - a participation meeting,

________________________________________________________________

A one sided report -

What a bunch of Crap>>>>>> Comments?...... participation meeting?
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 20:23:52 (EDT)
From: Mole
Email: None
To: 777
Subject: June 6, 1999 {M} Programing???
Message:
local satellite feed for today cost $39.95
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 21:43:19 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mole
Subject: I went! -- kinda
Message:
Got a last minute invitation to the pay-for-view so we went. Got there late, though. Everyone was just kind of milling around outside. What a bunch of middle-age losers! I just couldn't believe the state of mind these numbskulls were in. Really, I almost couldn't believe it. Almost got into a fist fight with this one guy. Ended up just laughing, telling them all they were stuck in a very pathetic, little cult and split. Tell you more about it later. God was it an eye-opener.

You guys should all go if you haven't been around for a while. It is so frail, so insipid, so utterly, outrageously dumb!!
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 22:34:31 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I went! -- kinda
Message:
Are you serious? I can't believe it! Come on, tell the truth? EV actually invited the infamous Jim Heller?
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:29:00 (EDT)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Do tell Jim!
Message:
Hey this sounds interesting. I want all the gory details!
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:33:56 (EDT)
From: Nurse Mary
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: Do tell Jim!
Message:
Hi G's mom,

Jim is nursing his broken nose with a bottle of bourban and an ice pack.

I'm sure we'll be herein about an all out brouhaha of the clashing clans.

Now where are the bagpipers?

luv,
Mare
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:38:36 (EDT)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: Nurse Mary
Subject: Pay per view Fight....
Message:
Jim vs the Zombies. Now that is a sattelite EVENT I would shell out some bucks for!
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:43:51 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: G's mom
Subject: Pay per view Fight....
Message:
Ditto.

I wonder how Jim woke them up?

Jim, are you there? Is someone stitching up your ear or are you spitting someones ear out?

OK... I'll transfer $39.95 into your bank account right now, just to get the scoop.

Mary
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 20:26:16 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The weirdest part
Message:
The weirdest part of the whole thing was the premies' almost physical revulsion to some very simple questions. We're talking the same kind of repulsion normally triggered by gross obscenities. For instance, I asked this guy if didn't think it was an interesting question to wonder how we humans got here. He stared at me like I was an asshole. I asked him if he didn't think it interesting that both Maharaji and his brother claim to be 'Perfect Masters'. I might as well have spit in his eye. And when I aksed him if he thought it possible that the satellite feed might be profitable for Maharaji, well you'd think I was attacking his God or something.

After he started moving towards me but then backed off, I laughed and just said to everyone 'You guys are just stuck in a very silly cult. You're afraid to ask questions, you're afraid to think for yourselves.' (I was particularly angry about what I'd heard Maharaji had said that day. Apparently, he talked about the 'two kinds of people who ask questions, those that want to accept and those that want to judge.)' This guy, Don Mueller (sp?) then told me to 'fuck off' at which point my normally demurring girlfriend, Laurie, popped up, 'What about all that peace you supposedly have? Why aren't you simply going inside?', at which point he told her to 'fuck off' too. Needless to say, Laurie's not really ready for the aspirant program yet.
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 22:19:38 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: 777
Subject: Next Step Bestiality ;-)
Message:
Thanks for the report 777.

Sounds like the members of the Church of Elan Vital enjoy seeing their newly invented 'private investor' Senior Pastor.

Seriously, don't you think he's a getting a bit teched in the head? Or is he simply missing Marolyn? Was there a stewardess on board during his flight over the Amazon? Believe me someone needs to tell the man that fantasies of bestiality are not appropriate in the pulpit.

Instead HE would be the food waiting to be eaten.

I'm not too impressed with the numbers. After all, it is a church based on the hype of his holinesses well timed visits. Has the offering changed from pre-darshan, 'empty your pockets and hand over your jewelry into 5 gallon painters buckets' to another venue? Oh, I forgot they have a Church Trinket Store as well as electronic deposits!

VISIONS INTERNATIONAL
5321 DERRY AVE STE G
AGOURA HILLS, CA 91301
(Headquarters location)
(Trade style, aka, 'doing business as')
ELAN VITAL INC

Anyone know if the Deacons, Elders, and Deaconesses were there? Aye, chi wa wa.... now he can use his web site that converts currency values right on the screen for them...much easier to calculate the take.

Tee-Hee.... this grifter has no .... shall we say elan?

Mare
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 08:19:41 (EDT)
From: DS
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Next Step Bestiality ;-)
Message:
Bestiality *wink* your one sick gal.. filthy Mary.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 11:11:46 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: DS
Subject: Next step - lawn bowling
Message:
The thing that struck me the most was everyone's age. I'd just never associated the 'new age' movement with such old people before. Anyway, yeah it really happened. Sorry I missed the feed itself and I'm also sorry I couldn't shut my mouth long enough to get to the restaurant. That would have been even more fun. A friend, Robert Ruben, invited me, nothing official. Not much more to tell but I'll try to explain what happened in our little dialogue later, when I get a chance.
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 00:03:48 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: DS
Subject: Think Again DS
Message:
Bestiality *wink* your one sick gal.. filthy Mary

Hey DS,

Never knew about this crap til it started popping up in public schools accessible by elementary school children circa 91-92.

I choose my battles carefully. When I decide an issue is worth fighting for, particularly when it involves children, I fight til the bitter end. Went to the wall with this issue. The responsible parties would only block access to 15 elementary schools, if I were willing to leave my position. Best deal I could work out for the kids so we put it in writing and I hopped into a better job.

Did you know quite a bit of the 'filth' has roots in the Indian culture? If you're a premie be careful who you choose to revere and accept as a Master. Be very careful.

The somnambulent state of people with knowledge never ceases to amaze me. So, don't mess with me or even allude to me being 'filthy'. I've been on this net longer than you and know full well what I'm doing and why I am doing it.

Eastern Weirdness
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 00:11:03 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: DS
Subject: Something about Mary...
Message:
Mess with Mary, you mess with Marianne...
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 07:34:21 (EDT)
From: DS
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Think Again DS
Message:
I see, I thought your reference to bestiality was your sick humor, but you were actually talking about India and people who are from there. Ok
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 16:10:19 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: DS
Subject: Think Again DS
Message:
Go Fock Yourself, fool.
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 17:14:06 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Something about Mary--
Message:
She's not a woman to be messed with, DS. BTW, what does DS stand for? Double Spaced?
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 20:14:59 (EDT)
From: DS
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Something about Mary--
Message:
Double Spaced will work but I was thinking

more like David Smith or some such.

As you can see Mary doesn't want to

continue this PKW or PWK thrend

(whatever that means).

She lost her cool.( Ha, why is that?)

I called her on some sick humor

she used, but as Mary said she has

purpose, she is probably forming

some enigmatic theory that she

hasn't sold to this eager company, yet.
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 20:23:27 (EDT)
From: May M
Email: None
To: DS
Subject: Think so? (NT)
Message:
dfadf
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Date: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 00:16:24 (EDT)
From: DS
Email: None
To: May M
Subject: On pot shots
Message:
I think I am over my shock, I won't be making any more pot shots, efforts to be an effective shock jock, here, will only be repeats, mostly hot air. The rules of the forum will prevent players of this game to bring it to new level.

I can't see myself reading here anymore, though I have read here much longer than most here have posted. I am sure most of you are pretty nice people, except of course Jim :) :|

I guess I might see an 'ex-premie' in front of some 'venue' handing out leaflets, or talking on a bullhorn, but I will use my panhandle avoidance skills to get past, and possibly I might read of a dismissal of a case in some back page of a newspaper.

Go talk amongst yourselves, I won't be listening.
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 22:31:30 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: DS
Subject: Hello David Smith!
Message:
Remember me? I'm the one who picked you up in Toronto and drove you to London two years ago. You didn't say a word. You went to sleep. I took you to the National Traveller's Hotel and paid for your room for two days. You complained to Lynn Devine that it was facing the strip joint, 'Beef Baron.'

Lynn told me that I shouldn't put anyone else up there. From then on, instructors got billeted at people's homes--much more suitable and cheaper, don't you think? Perhaps you can put in a good word for me. THERE REALLY IS SOMETHING ABOUT YOU!
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 22:56:57 (EDT)
From: Double Space
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Hello David Smith!
Message:
no, not me., I have never kept up with the nmaes of the holy ones, didn't mean to mis-lead you.
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Date: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 17:48:43 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: DS
Subject: M is a bigot
Message:
I see, I thought your reference to bestiality was your sick humor, but you were actually talking about India and people who are from there. Ok

DS,

Have you noticed that Pastor Rawat has not appointed one single person of Indian lineage on any of his corporate boards? It is my opinion that Pastor Rawat exploits and manipulates anyone of Indian lineage in his service within the Church of Elan Vital.

Why is that?

BTW - I apologize for calling you a fool as I don't know if you are or not. I do KNOW what SUBJECT HEADINGs you'll immediately hone in on. You're an easy one so thanks for not dragging this PWK thread out.

Have a nice day!
Mary
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 13:05:38 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Divine City Feb. 15, 1973
Message:
Here's another gem from the Feb. 15, 1973, Divine Times. It is an article entitled Future Plans.

The experience of True Knowledge as revealed by Guru Maharaj Ji brings real peace in the hearts and minds of men. This inner peace has its outward manifestation in the forms of unselfish, cooperative behavior. The experience of this peace will serve an inspiration for a new city to be built in the United States under the auspices of Divine Light Mission.

This Divine City will be a logical extension of the present support systems already existing with the Divine Light Community throughout the world. By concentrating these activities into one locality, practical solutions to modern urban living will be exhibited with a unique approach to habitat, business, and social needs. Central to the city will be the Temple of Truth, surrounded by eight different temples and churches of various major religions, giving people of all religions the opportunity to worship Truth according to their own respective cultural background.

This community will clearly exemplify the utter practicality of true and total peace as is found in the Knowledge revealed by Guru Maharaj Ji. With the new Divine city as a blueprint, Divine Light Mission will take its message of peace and hope to all the people of the world, in hopes that humankind will avoid the present path of despair, separation, and destruction ...... and choose life, love and eternal peace.

Unfortunately, I cannot input the nice Architect's Drawing of Divine City for you. I can tell you that the central Temple of Truth is lots bigger and nicer looking than those lesser temples that surround it. I want to do lots of editorializing as I input these passages, but I guess it all speaks for itself, doesn't it?
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 15:04:57 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Divine Times July 24, 1973
Message:
This issue contains a 2 page ad for both Millenium and Soul Rush. Here's the text of the Millenium ad:

Millenium '73, November 8, 9, 10 at the Astrodome, Houston, Texas
'I declare I will establish peace in the world in my lifetime.' Guru Maharaj Ji, Delhi, 1970

It has been prophesized for centuries that a time is coming when man will live in perfect peace and happiness in harmony with himself and his world. This is to be a time of great celebration and will last a thousand years. Every nation and religion awaits this time of peace. In the West, it is referred to as the Golden Age, the Age of Truth, the New Age, the Millenium.

Guru Maharaj Ji has come into the world to fulfill this promise. and by His grace, the United States of America will be host to Millenium '73 --- the celebration of 'a thousand years of peace.'

The most significant gathering in American history, Millenium '73 will take place in the world's largest indoor collseum (sic) -- the Houston Astrodome --- November 8, 9, 10, 1973. The three day program will climax in the World Assemblage to Save Humanity where countries throughout the world will send delegations to see Guru Maharaj Ji, hear his plan for peace, and express devotion to the living Lord.

The ad for Soul Rush states:
The purpose of Soul Rush is to tell everyone in America that they will have the opportunity to hear Maharaj Ji speak about His program for peace, if only they listen. To awaken their hearts to His message, Soul Rush will hold rallies, programs, and colorful parades along the way to the Astrodome. Soul Rush will visit the United Nations to invite governments of the world to hear the message of global unity. Soul Rush will tour factories and farms and ghettoes, telling the people that Guru Maharaj Ji has something vital to say to them and to their families. And Soul Rush will march to the White House in a candle-light procession to invite the President of the United States to see the living Perfect Master.

-----Well, Soul Rush was not quite so grand. No visit to the UN, no tours of factories, farms or ghettoes. No candle lit procession to the White House to invite Tricky Dicky to Houston. There were a lot of parades though.
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 18:29:17 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Yes there WAS a candle lit pro
Message:
cession in which we surrounded the White House. Dick didn't pay any attention- he was preoccupied with Watergate. I drove around the streets of DC in a little truck equipped with a VERY LOUD PA system. I would say: ' ATTENTION EVERYONE- THIS SUNDAY, THE WASHINGTON MONUMENT WILL BLAST OFF! BE THERE! PEACE IS COMING TO THE PLANET!'. People would jump and whip their heads around two blocks away. I'm surprised I wasn't arrested. I went around most of the government buildings blaring this stuff.

It beat doing service on the house painting crew or jumbling...
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 19:49:36 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Yes there WAS a candle lit pro
Message:
oops. Memory failed me. I have absolutely no recollection of the procession and I was on Soul Rush. thanks for the correction.
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 15:46:08 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Divine City Jail
Message:
Oh boy! That's a real laugh. Somebody was smoking something back then.

After having been involved in the Divine Light and EV communities can you imagine what kind of world there would be if modelled on our community?
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 15:55:41 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: New World Order
Message:
Well Webmaster, I think it would look a lot like it did in the olden ashram and Divine Residence days. Excpet that now all the Residences would have golden fixtures, and would be stocked with alcohol. Does M eat eggs nowadays? If so, eggs would abound too. The residents of the Divine City would be endlessly fighting over who would be allowed to purchase a new pair of underwear and who had fallen asleep during 5:30 am meditation that morning. Oh and those lesser temples would have been converted into hangars for the Lord's cars and planes.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 11:27:46 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Mari, Mari, Mari
Message:
Marianne: No, no, no..... Remember unfertilized eggs are ALIVE and seeds are dead. It's ok to eat seeds, not ok to eat eggs. Thus spake our fearful-leader!
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 11:33:49 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Mari, Mari, Mari
Message:
Mike: Yes,he did, didn't he? Memory failed me once again. But, our fearless leader also told us not to drink alcohol or coffee (did you drink Postum, like we did?), have sex, etc., etc., but it seems it was all ok for him.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 11:42:15 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Mari, Mari, Mari
Message:
Mari: No, I must admit that the coffee bean has been and continues to be one of my vices :-). Sometimes I drank postum when I would go camping with my grandpa (he was LDS), so I wouldn't tempt/offend him.

Now, as to the other stuff..... Well, remember that we all just 'knew' that M was eating our karma, so he HAD to do those things, right? MAN, did WE know how to rationalize misbehavior or what???????

Maybe that's why I am such a hard-over reactionary when it comes to blaming 'people' instead of 'objects' and 'environment' for misbehavior. Who knows..... :-)
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 12:44:43 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: I didn't know
Message:
Hi Mike. I was involved early on in the 70's and at that time, we ashram premies did not know M was doing all that stuff. That's why I get so blown away reading the Forum. When I posted my Journey a few months ago, I included a comment that I felt I had been blessed by GMJ when I received K. I still think it was a good thing for me to have been involved in for the limited time (4 years in the cult) I was there because my family was disintegrating, and the ashrams I lived in became surrogate families for me. I desperately needed a new family at that time, and I was only 17 when I moved into the ashram. Today I am glad I lived in the ashram and found the friends I did there, but I am unwilling to give credit to M. The information I have learned here has soured me on him completely.
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Date: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 13:23:44 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: I didn't know
Message:
Marianne: I agree. I 'needed' to be around people that were searching for the same thing I was. No one else seemed to really undertand the 'depth' of my desire to find the meaning of life.

Up until fairly recently, I felt the same about the hamster as you did. Kind of a 'take him or leave him' attitude. But, when I saw the facts as 'I' knew them placed into a logical framework, THAT's when the last drip occurred for me. I had most of the puzzle pieces already, I just hadn't put them together. The 'pieces' were enough to keep me at a healthy distance from the BM, but once they were put together, the puzzle 'spelled,' F.R.A.U.D! Pissed me off, to be sure. My thanks go out to Jim, JW, Nigel, Mickey the P, Gerry, Jerry, Katie, Brian and the HOST of others on this forum.
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Date: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 12:51:08 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Divine Times Feb. 15, 1973
Message:
For those of you who were not around In the Beginning, Divine Times was a newspaper that was put out by Divine Light Mission National Headquarters in Denver. It existed for about a year and a half, from early 1973 until late 1974 or 1975. It had all sorts of articles --- interviews with Guru Maharaj Ji, his mother Mata Ji, his brother Bal Bhagwan Ji, cooking tips for the sisters, news about events in premie communities, etc. I found an editorial entitled, 'Should Nixon Resign?' I'll post that another time. Oh, it's a hoot. There are also some interesting articles about DLM finances.....

Here's something from February 15, 1973 Divine Times. It is an article entitled: Answers from Guru Maharaj Ji, 15 Year Old Perfect Master.

Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?
I have not come to establish a new religion or sect, but I have come to give you Knowledge of Truth. If you come to me with a guileless heart you will surely receive this most ancient spiritual Knowledge, which, if practised upon, will give us perfect peace of mind.

Jesus gave us this Knowledge, Krishna gave us this Knowledge, but now we must look again for a new Master to show us the light. The sun comes and goes away but we don't look for the light of day which has just gone. We look for the new rising sun. The sun is there, but it rises in a new beautiful way, and we look for that. In the same way, God is the same, but now we look for him to come, in a new way, to give this Knowledge.

What is a Perfect Master?
When we say 'Perfect Master', this is what we mean. A man who teaches you math, you call him a math master. A man who teaches you science, you call him a science master. A man who teaches you perfectness, you call him a Perfect Master.
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