Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 6

From: May 2, 1998

To: May 11, 1998

Page: 3 Of: 5



Brian -:- Archive online -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:49:17 (EST)
__Carol -:- Archive online -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:17:48 (EST)
____Katie -:- Archive online -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:44:07 (EST)
______Carol -:- Archive online..Jim Trade?? -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:17:29 (EST)
________Katie -:- Archive online..Jim Trade?? -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:22:58 (EST)
____Still Crazy -:- Archive online -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:46:03 (EST)

gumby -:- Greetings, -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 01:15:01 (EST)
__Jim -:- But isn't that what you mean? -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:21:17 (EST)
____gumby -:- But isn't that what you mean? -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 00:43:57 (EST)
______Jim -:- But isn't that what you mean? -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 11:24:09 (EST)
________Jim -:- I meant 'sign'! -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 11:25:18 (EST)
________gumby -:- But isn't that what you mean? -:- Fri, May 08, 1998 at 01:17:23 (EST)
__________Jim -:- But isn't that what you mean? -:- Fri, May 08, 1998 at 08:50:22 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Greetings, -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:29:41 (EST)
____jude -:- Greetings, -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 09:14:51 (EST)
______Jude -:- Whoops silly me -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 10:03:46 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Whoops silly me -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 10:12:43 (EST)
__________Katie -:- Whoops silly me -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:22:09 (EST)
____________Robyn -:- Whoops silly me -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:25:40 (EST)
______________A concerned brother -:- Whoops silly me -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 16:48:29 (EST)
______Carol -:- Greetings, -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:24:42 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Greetings, -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 09:26:13 (EST)
____gumby -:- Greetings, -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 00:52:41 (EST)
__John -:- Two more cents worth -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:52:37 (EST)
____Carol -:- Two more cents worth,plus mine -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:38:27 (EST)
______John -:- Two more cents worth,plus mine -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:02:14 (EST)
________Carol -:- Two more cents worth,plus mine -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:09:00 (EST)
________Still Crazy -:- Two more cents worth,plus mine -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 18:14:30 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- Two more cents worth,plus mine -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 09:32:09 (EST)
____gumby -:- Two more cents worth -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 01:48:54 (EST)
__JW -:- Greetings, -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:10:22 (EST)
____gumby -:- Greetings, -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 02:07:45 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Greetings, -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 09:37:08 (EST)
________gumby -:- Greetings, -:- Fri, May 08, 1998 at 02:08:53 (EST)
______JW -:- Greetings, -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 12:23:40 (EST)
________gumby -:- Greetings, -:- Fri, May 08, 1998 at 01:53:22 (EST)
__Mickey the Pharisee -:- Greetings, -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 15:57:39 (EST)
____gumby -:- Greetings, -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 02:12:49 (EST)

Cheddarman -:- Hey Jude -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:54:57 (EST)
__Jude -:- Hey Jude -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:17:53 (EST)
____Cheddarman -:- Hey Jude -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 21:24:00 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- Sekander's world. -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 23:57:45 (EST)
______Keith -:- Hey Jude -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 07:25:17 (EST)
________Jim -:- Challenge all Premies! -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:45:32 (EST)
________Brian -:- Brain-Dead Poets Society -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 09:05:18 (EST)
________Jude -:- Hey Jude -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 09:17:29 (EST)
________VP -:- Hey Jude -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 10:42:43 (EST)
__________jude -:- Hey Jude -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 10:59:16 (EST)
____________VP -:- Hey Jude -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:11:36 (EST)
____________Scott -:- erudite -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:21:44 (EST)
______________Robyn -:- erudite -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:24:05 (EST)
________________Scott T. -:- erudite -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:22:58 (EST)
______________Jude -:- erudite -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:31:14 (EST)
________________Jude -:- Scott -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:37:16 (EST)
__________________Robyn -:- Scott -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:52:23 (EST)
________________Robyn -:- erudite -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:51:23 (EST)
________________VP -:- erudite -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:12:57 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Hey Jude -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:14:53 (EST)
__________Keith -:- Hey Jude -:- Fri, May 08, 1998 at 00:41:57 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Honestly, Keith -:- Fri, May 08, 1998 at 09:07:59 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Hey Jude -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:04:34 (EST)

JW -:- QUIZ -- Johnny Carson -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:12:49 (EST)
__John -:- QUIZ -- Johnny Carson -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 09:37:24 (EST)
____eb -:- QUIZ -- Johnny Carson -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:29:50 (EST)
______Carol -:- QUIZ -- Johnny Carson -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:34:19 (EST)
______Katie -:- QUIZ -- Johnny Carson -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:41:39 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- QUIZ - That's sooo deep! -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:50:18 (EST)
__________Katie -:- QUIZ - That's sooo deep! -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:55:07 (EST)
______JW -:- QUIZ -- Johnny Carson -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:47:02 (EST)
____JW -:- QUIZ -- Johnny Carson -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:46:05 (EST)
______Katie -:- QUIZ -- Johnny Carson -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:47:33 (EST)
______John -:- Hey Joe enough suspense! -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:06:45 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Hey Joe enough suspense! -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 09:47:25 (EST)
__________Katie -:- I was fooled -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 10:14:19 (EST)
____________Robyn -:- I was fooled -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 10:37:04 (EST)
__JW -:- QUIZ -- Johnny Carson -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:23:23 (EST)
____Robyn -:- QUIZ -- Johnny Carson -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 09:49:49 (EST)
______VP -:- Participant is Petrou?? -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 14:08:39 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Participant is Petrou?? -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 15:27:28 (EST)

Anon -:- Excerpts anybody? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:51:05 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Excerpts anybody? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:52:35 (EST)
____Anon -:- Excerpts anybody? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:57:26 (EST)
______Anon -:- Here they are. -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:20:44 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Here they are. -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:37:54 (EST)
__________Anon -:- Here they are. -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:46:45 (EST)
__________david f. -:- Here they are. -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 23:50:09 (EST)
________Jude -:- Here they are. -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:46:10 (EST)
__________david f. -:- to jude - for you. -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 00:13:51 (EST)
__________Katie -:- Here they are. -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 00:27:38 (EST)
________Nigel -:- Here they are. -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 21:41:28 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Life is like a bag of mangos.. -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:41:26 (EST)
__________Katie -:- Goomradji -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:52:45 (EST)
____________Gerry -:- Goomradji -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:59:54 (EST)
______________John -:- I drowned in the maya -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:13:44 (EST)
______________Katie -:- Goomradji -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:16:08 (EST)
________________Gerry -:- Goomradji -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:41:53 (EST)
__________________VP -:- Group nakedness -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:49:44 (EST)
____________________Gerry -:- Ageless body, Mindless Brain -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:00:05 (EST)
______________________Carol -:- Ageless body, Mindless Brain -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:13:03 (EST)
________________________Gerry -:- Ageless body, Mindless Brain -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:18:58 (EST)
__________________________Carol -:- Ageless body, Mindless Brain -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:30:30 (EST)
____________________________Helmet head -:- Ageless body, Mindless Brain -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 15:31:05 (EST)
______________________VP -:- Gerry and Brian -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 15:50:24 (EST)
________________________Gerry -:- Gerry and Brian -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 16:19:04 (EST)
__________________________VP -:- Ben and Jerry's -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 16:34:03 (EST)
____________________________Robyn -:- Ben and Jerry's -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 10:09:15 (EST)
____________________Robyn -:- Group nakedness -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 10:02:29 (EST)
__________________Carol -:- I was there too -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:51:22 (EST)
__________________Carol -:- Naked Portlanders, too -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:05:09 (EST)
____________________Gerry -:- Naked Portlanders, too -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:10:04 (EST)
______________________Carol -:- Naked Portlanders, too -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:21:25 (EST)
____________________Robyn -:- Naked Portlanders, too -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 10:16:03 (EST)
______________________Carol -:- Naked Portlanders, too -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 16:39:24 (EST)
________________________JW -:- Naked Portlanders, too -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 21:11:24 (EST)
__________________JW -:- Goomradji -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 16:20:56 (EST)
____________________VP -:- Goomradji -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 16:38:23 (EST)
______________________JW -:- Goomradji -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 16:51:19 (EST)
______________________Robyn -:- Goomradji -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 10:19:11 (EST)
________________________VP -:- Goomradji -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 13:48:08 (EST)
__________________________JW -:- Of Hets and Breeders -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 14:01:23 (EST)
____________________________VP -:- Of Hets and Breeders -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 15:08:42 (EST)
____________________________JW -:- To VP - - Of Hets and Breeders -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 15:23:29 (EST)
__________________________Gerry -:- Yuppies, guppies, dinks and ?? -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 14:07:59 (EST)
____________________________Robyn -:- SINKS -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 15:38:34 (EST)
______________________________Gerry -:- SINKS -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 16:04:21 (EST)
________________________________Robyn -:- SINKS -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 17:28:35 (EST)
__________________Robyn -:- Goomradji -:- Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 09:56:31 (EST)
____________Jude -:- Goomradji -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 19:41:12 (EST)
__Jude -:- Excerpts anybody? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:22:21 (EST)
__JW -:- Excerpts anybody? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 21:01:09 (EST)
____Anon -:- Excerpts anybody? -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:16:24 (EST)
______jean-michel -:- Scan -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 09:47:53 (EST)
________Jude -:- Scan -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 10:06:51 (EST)
__________JM -:- Scan: I'll try -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:20:22 (EST)
____________jude -:- Scan: I'll try -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:23:12 (EST)
______________JM -:- RIDICULOUS STUFF -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 16:23:31 (EST)
__Jean-Michel -:- I have the whole book! -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 03:48:17 (EST)

Jim -:- Hey, premies, que pasa? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 16:41:27 (EST)
__JW -:- Hey, premies, que pasa? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 17:36:41 (EST)
____Jim -:- Silly me -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 17:42:01 (EST)
__Bruce -:- Hey, premies, que pasa? -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 05:00:50 (EST)
____Jude -:- Hey, premies, que pasa? -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 05:22:27 (EST)
____Brian -:- A Satguru for the 90's -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:58:14 (EST)

Jim -:- Letter to Mr Shenoy -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 16:06:48 (EST)

Jim -:- The Sublime Source of Joy -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 14:32:53 (EST)


Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:49:17 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Archive online
Message:
Yet another archive is saved for posterity.

Now, where are the satsangs of yesteryear?...
Send me the URLs, Maharaji, and I'll link to them.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:17:48 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Archive online
Message:
I have a box full of old 'And It Is Divine' magazines which include old satsang from M. I also have stored away a HUGE framed photo from one of the preemie houses. Carol
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:44:07 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Carol
Subject: Archive online
Message:
Carol - I know that Jim Heller really wants to get his hands on an old And it is Divine, if you are willing to part with one! He might even trade.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:17:29 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: coopmtncarol@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Archive online..Jim Trade??
Message:
Katie,
I wonder what he would trade!! :) Carol
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:22:58 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Archive online..Jim Trade??
Message:
I'd ask him for a copy of the Lord of the Universe video (if you are interested, that is). Otherwise, who knows what you might get (it might be fun, though!)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:46:03 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Archive online
Message:
I used to have the thick bound volume of AIID that they sold (at Millennium?). I lent it to a girl who was interested in M, but then she started going with my brother who hated M and told her he 'didn't want to lose another one to the Guru.' He made her throw it away, I think. I asked her to return it several times over the years, but she always said she didn't have it. Really pissed me off.

-Still
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 01:15:01 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Greetings,
Message:
Hi Everyone,

Thanks for all who have responded to my post. I've been in the 'zone' work wise, so I only have a small amount of time to spend on the forum, but I'll try to respond as best as I can. From an outside perspective, I seemed to have pushed a few buttons. I apologize. I am most interested in sharing my personal experience with God with those who are interested. I don't have all the answers, I don't want to pretend that I do. I won't get offended by any sincere criticism.

I hope that all of you may be richly blessed in your lives.

Hi Jim,
You wrote:No, I've never 'accepted Jesus in my heart' your use of qoutes implies that this is what I wrote. I think if you look at my original post I never asked anyone to do anything with their heart, please don't mis-quote me. Especially, since it appears that half the posts mainly focused on something I never wrote. -:)

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by:

If you really want to get into this, I will. But, in the end, I think you'll do what all good Christians do, and beg off in the name of fate. Tell me right now that you won't do that and I'll hash it out with you. But I'm not going to start if you're not going to finish.


What exactly do you you want to 'hash it out'? Are you offended that I have invited you to enter into a relationship with God?

I didn't really follow your fourth paragraph either. To compare Jesus with m, is pretty silly. To imply that Jesus was nothing more than a consciousness is brilliantly ignorant. And I believe you are *not* ignorant, therefore I will assume that your statement was either a typo, or an attempt to get me excited.:))

Hi JW,
Thanks for responding.
Please reread my post, I dont ever recall saying: Accepting Jesus Christ into my heart. Did I say that? Did you read my post?

If I read the bible and then go out, and in the name of Jesus, start gunning down people, whose fault is that? Is God to blame? Unfortunately, the number one obstacle for some people in getting to know God is all the crap that has been done in the name of God. But, that does not invalidate God, just because people do evil.

Hi Robyn,
I am sorry about your Mom beating you. I don't know your personal situation. Being a mom can be the most demanding job in the world, and often a thankless job at that. I hope and pray that you can forgive her.

Hi John,
Thank you for your sentiments. I give you a big smile and hope to meet you sometime.

Hi Mickey
At the risk of sounding redundant, I guess I should ask you also: Did you read my post? You are all over me with the heart stuff.

I am running out of time for now. Sorry to those I didn't respond to. I appreciate everyone's time and energy.

GAGBWY

-gumby
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:21:17 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: But isn't that what you mean?
Message:
Hi gumby,

Yes, you're right, you never said anything about accepting Jesus 'in my heart'. I didn't mean to mislead you, me or anyone by attempting to paraphrase you and putting the phrase in quotes. The paraphrase was, I thought, fair and the quotes were just to cover the colloquial nature of the phrase I thought fit.

What you did say was:

Try it for yourself. Right now: Accept Jesus Christ alone as your personal Savior.


But is this any different than 'accepting Jesus in one's heart'? Have you ever heard that phrase? Do you ever use it? Does it mean something different to you than your own terminology?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 00:43:57 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: But isn't that what you mean?
Message:
Hi Jim,

You wrote: But is this any different than 'accepting Jesus in one's heart'? Have you ever heard that phrase? Do you ever use it? Does it mean something different to you than your own terminology?

For me, I love God with all my heart, soul and mind. I believe all three are important. The main problem with your above statement is that it is incomplete. God desires a real relationship with us, in our totality, and that includes all aspects of me. God doesn't have a problem with me using my mind, questioning. We are encouraged to test everything. There is a place for the mind, soul, and heart.

I hope this is helpful.

May your life be richly blessed.

-gumby
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 11:24:09 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: But isn't that what you mean?
Message:
Gumby,

We don't have to pursue this but you'll note that I asked you four questions and you didn't answer any of them. Always a bad sin, I'm afraid. Certainly doesn't sit too well alongside statements such as:

God doesn't have a problem with me using my mind, questioning. We are encouraged to test everything.

You know what they say: Atheism's in the details.

Jim
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 11:25:18 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I meant 'sign'!
Message:
Too funny in the circusmtances, eh?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 01:17:23 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: But isn't that what you mean?
Message:
Hi Jim,

You wrote:
We don't have to pursue this but you'll note that I asked you four questions and you didn't answer any of them.

This, I think was in response to your previous post:
But is this any different than 'accepting Jesus in one's heart'?
Have you ever heard that phrase?
Do you ever use it?
Does it mean something different to you than your own terminology?


But didn't I respond to your post with:
For me, I love God with all my heart, soul and mind. I believe all three are important. The main problem with your above statement is
that it is incomplete. God desires a real relationship with us, in our totality, and that includes all aspects of me. God doesn't have a problem with me using my mind, questioning. We are encouraged to test everything. There is a place for the mind, soul, and heart.


Are you not happy with my answers? By the way, you still have not answered my previous two questions:


What exactly do you you want to 'hash it out'? Are you offended that I have invited you to enter into a relationship with God?


Also Jim, What do you mean by: Always a bad sin, I'm afraid. ?

I am curious, what is your definition of sin?
Why *would* (hypothetically) not answering a question always be a bad sin?

GAGBWY

-gumby
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 08:50:22 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: But isn't that what you mean?
Message:
Gumby,

1) You may have 'responded to my post', in the sense that you posted a reply and negotiated around the same subject matter but you sure as hell didn't answer my questions. Do you think you did? Look, it's really simple.

Question a: But is this any different than 'accepting Jesus in one's heart'?

Question b: Have you ever heard that phrase?

Question c: Do you ever use it?

Question d: Does it mean something different to you than your own terminology?

These are straighforward. I don't know what else to tell you other than if you think you can have a good discussion without direct responsiveness, you're wrong. Well, let me qualify that, it's impossible when people are directly ad odds with one another.

2) I don't want to hash anything out. I said that if you wanted to argue about this, I would. I assumed that you knew some here would disagree with the premises underlying your invitation and that, by inviting feedback, you were challenging people like me to some sort of debate. I meant I'd argue about this with you, if you wanted, but only if you promised to do so thoroughly and fairly.

3) I'm not 'offended' so much as bemused that you'd invite us all to play the born-again Christian game. I understand that that's what born-agains do from time to time and that, from your perspective, you're just sharing what means most to you with a bunch of people I also assume you've grown to like a bit over the forum. I'm surprised that you'd think anyone here would be interested in taking you up on your invitation but maybe you just wanted to extend it and 'let Christ slowly work on us' or something. Kind of like a hex. That's okay, I guess. But really -- and here's yet another question for you (call it 'e'): did you really think you'd get any takers? If so (yes 'f'), whom?

4) Didn't you read my next post? That was a typo. I meant 'sign', not 'sin'. Funny eh? The random, godless universe works in mysterious ways.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:29:41 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: gumby
Subject: Greetings,
Message:
Dear gumby,
No need to respond to this post if you don't have time. I just wanted to let you know that at the age of 39 (I'm 42 now) I finally dealt with my mom at 1am with a phone call response to a very nasty letter from her. I had been preparing for that converstaion for about 12 years and never expected the outcome to be so positive. I was prepared to let my mother go out of my life and just the opposite happened and now we continue to enjoy communicating, even though she is still basically a nasty woman, she admitted it and apologized. Now I call her on it with humor when her nastiness shows which in something I could not do before. As I said before I am happy for you that you have found a comfortable place with god and I work, in my own way to do the same.
Take good care, gumby,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 09:14:51 (EST)
From: jude
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Greetings,
Message:
Robyn I want to add something here but before I do thank you for that post you sent me about the girl at school who gave you the note it took you years to understand.
Gosh maybe it's because we are the same age but I'm just like that (not wanting to read it, but keeping it). I just think it's brilliant that you eventually read and understood it - may that be the case for me with all the unread love-letters I've been sent in my life.

Well unless I had a lobotomy recently and forgot, it seems you are referring to Jim's comments in the above post. I just want to say that for me, that particular style reminds me of the psychotherapist who looked after me when I was ill. One of the things he had to do was be really cutting (after all the lovey-dovey stuff).

It was healing to get this kind of mental 'cutting'. He had no ill intent at all. He told me many times to think. When I picture it now, imagine someone going through childbirth and constantly being reminded to breathe. Why would they forget to breathe? Why would I have stopped thinking? Thinking is a survival mechanism.

I got to meet my own worst enemies inside - some of them were masquerading as my best friends.

I am not advocating indiscriminate use of this thing I think you are referring to as 'nasty' but I'm also saying sometimes 'nasty' is 'nice'.

Regards
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 10:03:46 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Whoops silly me
Message:
Re: nasty
I just realised I completely misunderstood what you guys were discussing. I was still contemplating the dialogue between gumby and jim when I read your reply to her.
Very sorry to be wrong (always really, really sorry to be wrong...)

I'm not going to be around as much in a few days' time as I will be be getting busy for a while. I've been participating so much for the past week and I really needed to. I got so much support from all of you after discovering this Forum and learning some really important new things concerning knowledge. You're all great and you Robyn are also right about bouncing off other people but making up my mind.

It's had a really big impact but I'm doing good. The 7-year old in me is so glad to join in (I had a dream about her earlier)

You say your relationship has improved with your mother, and isn't that good. My mum is declining and has lost all her nastiness and controllingness and is now just the sweetest dearest soul you could hope to meet. I love my mum after all these years because her true self has finally come out.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 10:12:43 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jude
Subject: Whoops silly me
Message:
Dear Jude,
No problem, I was a bit confused but that is an easy state for me. I still get confused with what posts are to whom in reply to what, I don't think that anyone here who 'knows' me would be suprized at that. Good luck to you, Jude. 'See' you when your here.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:22:09 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Whoops silly me
Message:
Hi Robyn - It bothers me when you call yourself confused or spacy because I would think that most single moms who have to work 60 or 70 hours a week at two jobs would get confused at times! I think you are amazingly coherent, actually. (What's your secret?)

Take care,
Katie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:25:40 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Katie
Subject: Whoops silly me
Message:
Dear Katie,
Hi, honey. Thanks for the kind words. Wish I had a secret or if I do, I wish I knew what it was!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 16:48:29 (EST)
From: A concerned brother
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Whoops silly me
Message:
Robyn you sound a little confused and uncertain here. Are you doing your meditation? service? sadsong?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:24:42 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: jude
Subject: Greetings,
Message:
I agree that 'sometimes nasty is nice'. I think it partly has to do with a person's intentions. I recognize good intentions in Jim's sometimes cutting remarks and 'good' reactions from those who choose to examine their ideas. Carol
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 09:26:13 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Carol
Subject: Greetings,
Message:
Hi Carol,
That is just how I feel about Jim, well said!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 00:52:41 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Greetings,
Message:
Greetings to you Robyn,

Thank you for sharing your story about you and your mom. It sounds like there has been alot of healing. Awesome! And you using your creativeness by also integrating humor. :) Being able to smile in the face of adversity is a pretty cool thing. I wish you continued greater clarity in your relationship with God.

GAGBWY

-gumby
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:52:37 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: Two more cents worth
Message:
Gumby:

Maybe someone else has said what I am going to say, but my big objection to the whole 'just accept JC as personal savior' idea is that at best it's a small part of what has to happen. Okay, so I accept JC as my personal savior...and then? what? Don't I still have to make efforts to overcome certain behaviors that cause myself or others problems?

I live in the Bible belt and there's a lot of people around here who believe that 'Jesus is the Answer, there's nothing else to discuss'.

I had a friend who did whatever he felt like because, as he said it, 'I've accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. He forgives all sins, so what do I have to worry about?'

So this friend went on his merry way, flirting and sleeping with women, eventually his wife tried to kick him out of his house, he got angry and rammed his wife's care so his son got hurt and had to go to the hospital. Yet, from my friend's point of view all of that was not his worry because he had accepted JC as his personal savior and all his sins were forgiven!

Now, tell me the truth what advice would you give this friend? Wouldn't you want to suggest something other than simply accepting Jesus Christ as your lord and savior?

In my opinion, the movie 'The Apostle' demonstrates that very well. Robert Duvall's character should have been working on controlling his anger. His anger caused him to kill someone. But no, he ignores that problem under the rug and focuses entirely on 'Jesus', whatever that means!

So, when you say to accept JC as my Lord and Savior, I think that you think something magical will take place and...what? Jesus will be in my life? I will be a good person? I will get angry at something stupid and insignificant, and it won't affect me?

I just don't believe it's even in the realm of being any kind of solution for real problems.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:38:27 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Two more cents worth,plus mine
Message:
John,
I don't think anyone said it quite like that. Also, I want to add my 2 cents: I believe that people who call themselves Christians would better serve thier interests, both external and personal, by focusing thier lives on loving and giving, and modeling their lives after the example and teachings of Jesus, the man, and aligning themselves with the living presence of God in themselves,(conscience....consciousness of what is right and loving).
I was lucky enough to have been in a premie community in the early 70's(Portland) where some of us got to experience doing some real useful and fun and emotionally rewarding service that included entertaining and visiting kids, the sick and the elderly. Most later 'service'lost that quality, being just for our leader or other members of our group, therefore more self-serving than selfless. Carol
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:02:14 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Two more cents worth,plus mine
Message:
Carol:
I was living in Eugene in the early 70's when I rec'd K, I lived for awhile on what was calling a meditation retreat in Cottage Grove, didja ever go there?

I think what happened with all those good works in the early 70's was that M never directly approved of them, and so premies did not want to do something that was not directly FOR HIM and under HIS direction.

Also, I honestly don't think M has a clue as to what good works really are. Remember that stupid story about St. Peter giving the guy back his 25 cents and telling him to go to hell? That was taken as encouragement to NOT give money to the needy. Same thing with the verses in Arti which claim you will never reach your goal by doing good deeds ( or something like that) as if good deeds are only done so that your soul can become liberated!!!

But I blame the guy at the top for the self-centered activiites of the followers.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:09:00 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Two more cents worth,plus mine
Message:
John, I do remember going to Cottage Grove. It was a nice octogonal dome that I sat in for meditation or satsang.
I agree on who is responsible for the direction service went. Carol
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 18:14:30 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Two more cents worth,plus mine
Message:
I think what happened with all those good works in the early 70's was
that M never directly approved of them, and so premies did not want to
do something that was not directly FOR HIM and under HIS direction.


M actually said exactly this. It was around 1977, I think. He said, 'Service is very specific. It's not just doing good works. If you're not doing service directly for Guru Maharaj Ji, it's not service.'

-Still
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 09:32:09 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Still Crazy
Subject: Two more cents worth,plus mine
Message:
'Service is very specific. It's not just doing good works. If you're not doing service directly for Guru Maharaj Ji, it's not service.'

Gag ME!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 01:48:54 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Two more cents worth
Message:
Hi John,

Thanks for responding to me.

You wrote:
Maybe someone else has said what I am going to say, but my big objection to the whole 'just accept JC as personal savior' idea is that at best it's a small part of what has to happen. Okay, so I accept JC as my personal savior...and then? what? Don't I still have to make efforts to overcome certain behaviors that cause myself or others problems?

You pose some great questions. As I mentioned in a previous post, I don't have all the answers. When I made a choice to accept Jesus into my life, that was the beginning, not the end. Many problems in life are still with me. They haven't yet vanished. (Bummer !:) What I am noticing is that my desire to know God is increasing. As a consequence of my wanting to walk in closer fellowship with him.
I need to make an effort to overcome problematic behavior. If I live my life saying that I am a disciple of Jesus, and then act in a way that contradicts his message then I am a hypocrite. It is important to 'walk' the 'talk'.

You then wrote:
I had a friend who did whatever he felt like because, as he said it, 'I've accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. He forgives all sins, so what do I have to worry about?'

I don't know this particular situation, so I can't really comment on it. I do know that it is one thing to intellectualize, or theorize about something, and quit different to really live it. God knows everybody's state, you can lie to yourself, and your friends, but you can't lie to God.

You then wrote:
So this friend went on his merry way, flirting and sleeping with women, eventually his wife tried to kick him out of his house, he got angry and rammed his wife's care so his son got hurt and had to go to the hospital. Yet, from my friend's point of view all of that was not his worry because he had accepted JC as his personal savior and all his sins were forgiven!

Now, tell me the truth what advice would you give this friend? Wouldn't you want to suggest something other than simply accepting Jesus Christ as your lord and savior?


It sounds like your friend is not 'walking' the 'talk'. Very simple. Once again the problem here is not with Jesus Christ. The issue is with his behavior. His behavior is not colinear with his mouth.

You then wrote:
So, when you say to accept JC as my Lord and Savior, I think that you think something magical will take place and...what? Jesus will be in my life? I will be a good person? I will get angry at something stupid and insignificant, and it won't affect me?

I just don't believe it's even in the realm of being any kind of solution for real problems.


I believe that God is in your life, and always has been. It may be that the expectation, or the image, or the perception, of who Jesus is, and what he should do is where the misunderstanding is.

I often stop and ask myself the following question: God, you have given me so much. What am I doing for you?

John, when I was looking death right smack between the eyes, knowing that I have a real relationship with God, the Author of Life, as promised through Jesus the Christ, I realized that He is the only solution.

Thanks again. I hope this helps.

Peace

-gumby
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:10:22 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: Greetings,
Message:
Gumby, I did read your post and I think your exact words were to 'accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior.' To me, that isn't any different than 'accepting JC into your heart.' It is equally meaningless to me. I don't think 'Jesus Christ' has any special powers to be in my heart, or to 'save' me.

As I said, I do go to a christian church and so I don't think all christians are narrow-minded bigots, but I have seen christianity and the bible used to reinforce prejudicial hatreds. I certainly don't imply that you would buy into that.

And I also never contended that the behavior of people would 'invalidate god.' But you make the connection between god and Jesus Christ in some way. That's the connection that I don't buy. Rather, I see a connection between the historical Jesus Christ, or at least the way he is written about, as a connection to my humanity.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 02:07:45 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Greetings,
Message:
Hi JW

Thanks for posting to me.

You wrote:

...It is equally meaningless to me. I don't think 'Jesus Christ' has any special powers to be in my heart, or to 'save' me.

As I said, I do go to a christian church and so I don't think all christians are narrow-minded bigots, but I have seen christianity and the bible used to reinforce prejudicial hatreds. I certainly don't imply that you would buy into that.


I am curious, why do you go to church? What role does Jesus play in your life?


And I also never contended that the behavior of people would 'invalidate god.' But you make the connection between god and Jesus Christ in some way. That's the connection that I don't buy. Rather, I see a connection between the historical Jesus Christ, or at least the way he is written about, as a connection to my humanity.


I believe that Jesus the Christ is God. Jesus made some pretty outrageous claims. He said He was God. Was He lying? Was He crazy? Is He the One True Living God?

Thanks again for your post.

GAGBWY

-gumby
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 09:37:08 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: gumby
Subject: Greetings,
Message:
Dear gumby,
Is He the One True Living God?
He has died how can he be the Living God?
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 02:08:53 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Greetings,
Message:
Hi Robyn,

Jesus was crucified, died and was buried. He rose on the third day to fulfill what was written in scripture. Jesus is the Christ.
(Christ is the word used to mean 'the anointed one'). Jesus came so that you and I might have eternal life. 'For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.'

I believe that is the best news imaginable. That is like winning the lottery. Except, it is for all time to come. :)

Peace and Grace be with you in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus.

-gumby
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 12:23:40 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: Greetings,
Message:
Gumby, in response to your questions, I think what Jesus Christ said or didn't say is, to say the least, the subject of some controversy, especially as to whether or not he was god, the son of god or anything else, and I understand that what is written about him didn't even happen until years after his death. I have no quarrel with people who believe JC is god, and was raised to believe that myself, but I no longer believe that. Of course, I was also taught volumes of medieval, superstitious, contradictory, mumbo-jumbo as well, in the Catholic Church, but some of the basic teachings of JC actually did come through, and I still think they are good ones, like loving your neighbor and pacifism.

I go to a christian church because I support the values the people who go to it demonstrate. Not just talk about, actually demonstrate. I suppose everyone has a somewhat different view on this, but, for me, the way of life and views on the way humans should treat each other that are attributed to JC, appear to be as good as any ideology around which to have a community of people who try to carry that out. Obviously, this is a very LIBERAL christian church, one that doesn't require any particular beliefs, and the pastor told me that she felt my 'good role model' view of JC, was just fine, so I continue to go. Also, I really like the social aspect of a community, and I like the diversity of the congregation. Sometimes I also go to Glide Memorial Church, which you have probabaly heard of as it's pretty famous, headed by Pastor Cecil Williams. It has the best gospel choir I have ever heard, Maya Angelou speaks there all the time, and it's also an incredibly diverse congregation.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 01:53:22 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Greetings,
Message:
Hi JW,

Thanks for responding. I haven't heard of the Glide Memorial Church, sounds like a good one.

The joy that is within me by having a relationship with God is amazing. I'm one of those who believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, who came so that I may have eternal life. :) But, as you wrote we don't need to quarrel. I agree with you that demonstrating a Christ like life is important, if you call yourself a follower. Hope all is well.

GAGBWY

-gumby
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 15:57:39 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: gumby
Subject: Greetings,
Message:
Hi gumby,
I was actually responding to the others in the thread, I didn't mean to get all over you about the heart. I wanted to explain the origins of the phrase. 'Accepting Jesus as my personal saviour' is from the same roots, from the two Great Awakenings, but this was not the understanding of conversion in the third and fourth centuries, which is my area of study, or even before the eighteenth century. I think that it is important for people to remember that Christianity has been around for a while now and that there are many different schools and theologies. I apologize 'being all over you.'
Regards,
Michael
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 02:12:49 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Greetings,
Message:
Hi Mickey,

Thanks, but I will apologize to you as your post was directed to JW, not to me.

GAGBWY

-gumby
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:54:57 (EST)
From: Cheddarman
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Everyone & Jude
Subject: Hey Jude
Message:
Continuing our fascinating discussion about infinity and nothing. Jude, you wrote:

'I find it hard to imagine the existence of absolutely nothing. Has it ever been measured or perceived or does it simply fit the theory?'

Well, 'nothing' does fit the theory of the universe very well. But to answer your first point, you can't actually imagine the existence of absolutely nothing because, (A) 'nothing' doesn't exist, by its very nature of being nothing and because (B) our brains are only wired to perceive or imagine 'something'. A good old non entity like 'nothing' is quite simply a non starter in human psychology.

Because 'nothing' doesn't exist we immediately have to put a something there to try to build a mental picture. Therefore we have created infinite space to fill the gap that the unassuming, Nothing, takes.

In my mind, the supposed notion of infinite space is just as impossible to comprehend as a finite universe with absolutely nothing else beyond it. Infinity and nothing are the two things that we can never comprehend. But in the mathmaticall model of the universe, nothing, fits much better than infinity. I agree with Scott, that infinity doesn't and cannot exist. Only as a mathematical model can it exist. And as regards God. Perhaps He is growing eternally but infinite? I think that's a misleading term to use. Boundless and immeasurable would be better, in my view.

I used to have these kind of conversations at 4 in the morning, coming down off acid.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:17:53 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Cheddarman
Subject: Hey Jude
Message:
'nothing' doesn't exist, by its very nature of being nothing

This is fantastic isn't it?

I just get into falling off the edge of the word stuff, like if there is something, and then you get to the end of it and there is nothing...

I mean what is the interface between something and nothing? What is the point of separation? How could they meet? Wouldn't there be a big nuclear reaction or something?

Yeah I used to get into new age stuff like parallel realities (I don't even want to discuss that any more it's so sick. And even the thought of being the creator of the whole of my own reality makes me want to spew. I probably went completely nuts when I went to new age seminars and therefore didn't notice anything unusual when I went to knowledge (cycnical)

However in that book 'Who Dies' by Stephen Levine, which is a comforting book if you know someone dying and has lots of lovely zen stories (one of which I heard M tell recently) - there is that concept of the part that is never born and never dies (into the realm of time and space).

And in new age talk there is a dimension beyond time and space, so in fact this whole universe is just a small trip and in this other dimension all your past lives are as one and time doesn't exist. The whole umbrella of all your separate past life entity-selves merge into the one huge you.

Cheddarman sorry to spew this out here.

However after reading earlier posts by some of you scientifically-minded trained thinkers, I can see that this whole way of looking at the world and explaining things is really avoiding attacking the questions head on.

You can always go off into a parallel universe (where if you reach a cross roads in your life, on some level you actually take both paths, did you know that?)

It was worse than LSD, at least on that stuff I felt blissed out. However it certainly fucked up what was actually quite an okay mind up until that point in my life.

Well I love to think about absolutely nothing. It sounds peaceful.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 21:24:00 (EST)
From: Cheddarman
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Jude
Subject: Hey Jude
Message:
I don't but most of that new age stuff. It's just a rehash of Buddism and Hinduism for western minds, in my opinion. There does appear to be a growth that could be termed as chronological and I believe it's a natural growth that is happening to everyone, including God. I don't but that timeless dimension and merging stuff, although it obviously come from Buddism. Why not just call a spade a spade; we're travellers on a journey of discovery. If you were incarnated before, that was then and not now. I've seen some fascinating accounts of people remembering past lives while in this life. Remembering things in vivid detail that were later checked out and found to be true.

That's an interesting question; what do you get if you reach the edge of something and nothing? I think you'd create some more space where there was nothing before. I think that's what the universe is doing.

Now it's past my bedtime. Fortunately we've not got on to time travel. I can go on for hours about that!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 23:57:45 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Cheddarman
Subject: Sekander's world.
Message:
Jude and David:

Just saw the documentary about Alexander the Great. His tutor, Aristotle, gave him to believe that India was just a small peninsula jutting out into the sea that encircled the world. When he reached the River Beas he expected that there wasn't much world left to conquer, but soon found out that India was a vast subcontinent. At that point he had to defer to his army, most of whom wanted to go home. For him, at least, that was the edge of nothing.

There is a wonderful little book by R.B. Fuller that is considered by many to be his best. It deals with this business about limits, and edges. The book and his primary essay in it are both titled 'The Omnidirectional Halo.' The gist is that there are no sharp dividing edges, but two zones of almost-but-not-quite relevance leading to complete irrelevance, one inward and one outward. These two zones are not fixed, of course. The issue in defining something and nothing is not uncertainty, but relevance.

-Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 07:25:17 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Hey Jude
Message:
Hey Jude,
Please let me see,
So that I can feel,
A little clearer..r..r,
But please make me,
Understand your heart,
So that my mind,
Will not fall apart...
na na na nananana...nananana ...hey Jude..

Hey Jude,
Please let me know,
Beyond my thoughts,
And my expectations,
But remember ,
The silence of my soul,
So that Knowledge,
Can transmute alloy into gold..
na na na nananana...nananana...hey Jude..
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:45:32 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Challenge all Premies!
Message:
Forget the Holy Family stuff, Maharaji's sex life, financial dealings or questionable lineage. Forget the ashrams, the 70s or even the 80s. I challenge all of you to honestly comment on your brother, Keith's, poetry above. Come on, Bruce, Mili, I know you guys are out there. Have you ever run anything like this through your brain before:

Hey Jude,
Please let me know,
Beyond my thoughts,
And my expectations,
But remember ,
The silence of my soul,
So that Knowledge,
Can transmute alloy into gold..


Go ahead, try to sing it to yourself. No, that's not good enough. Sing the whole verse. Can't do it, can you? See? See what I told you? Okay, now go back to the first one:

Hey Jude,
Please let me see,
So that I can feel,
A little clearer..r..r,
But please make me,
Understand your heart,
So that my mind,
Will not fall apart...


Try to sing that one now. Yes, out loud. Ha! See?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 09:05:18 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Keith
Subject: Brain-Dead Poets Society
Message:
You may be closing-in on content here, Keith.

Probably not though.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 09:17:29 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Hey Jude
Message:
I don't have that kind of power Keith.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 10:42:43 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey Jude
Message:
John Lennon, yes even in death, has nothing to fear from this aspiring lyricist. I want to hear Larkin's version of Hey Jude, for Jude of the forum, of course. VP
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 10:59:16 (EST)
From: jude
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Hey Jude
Message:
VP
You are a funny man

witty and erudite

I can't remember whether you know a lot of famous people but you sound okay to me

ps do you know what erudite means cause I don't - I just like the sound of it
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:11:36 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: jude
Subject: Hey Jude
Message:
Jude, Thank you very much:) Sometimes humor is just what the doctor ordered. VP
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:21:44 (EST)
From: Scott
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: jude
Subject: erudite
Message:
Dear Jude,
Can I play Scott here? (Scott, imitation is the highest form of flattery)

Webster's Dictionary New Revised Edition with modern definitions, easy to read type(I'd have to dissagree), parts of speech(how unique!) and more than 440 pages!

erudite: adj. - learned; deeply read; scholarly

Still not as complete as Scott's but I can't read that easy to read type very well!

Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:24:05 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Scott
Subject: erudite
Message:
Dear Scott, and David,
I am just to honest. I see that when I post under a name other than my own I am always clicking on the stupid thing to read it! I saw this one and thought, oh Scott got to this before I did. Sheesh!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:22:58 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: erudite
Message:
Robyn:

I see that when I post under a name other than my own I am always clicking on the stupid thing to read it! I saw this one and thought, oh Scott got to this before I did. Sheesh!

You've just stumbled onto one of the keys to becoming a guru. Have people do their own work, and then take credit for it yourself.

-Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:31:14 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Scott
Subject: erudite
Message:
I think erudite is too elegant a word to mean 'learned, deeply read, scholarly'

It should mean 'someone in stripey pyjamas with a cat under their arm on a Saturday morning reading old books'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:37:16 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Scott-Robyn
Subject: Scott
Message:
Boy Scott's going to wonder how he got those erudite replies on the Forum - you're making his life easy for him, Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:52:23 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Jude
Subject: Scott
Message:
Dear Jude,
He has eased the way for me on occasion also.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:51:23 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Jude
Subject: erudite
Message:
Dear Jude,
Don't blame me you guys made up the language!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:12:57 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: erudite
Message:
Jude,
I like the pajamas and cat image, so that is the definition I would accept for myself. Antiques and art all around, classical music playing and horn rimmed reading glasses, too, I am afraid. (If only things were that romantic and calm around here...sigh.) I do think that the scholarly definition would have to go to Scott as I am not nearly as well read as he. Clever, ok, from time to time MAYBE. Scholarly, only in certain areas.

Robyn,
I didn't answer the erudite question for reasons only you know, haha! Seriously though, I was thinking that Scott would answer and then I laughed so hard when it wasn't Scott, but you acting like Scott would answer. That was pretty clever of you. VP
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:14:53 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Keith
Subject: Hey Jude
Message:
Dear Keith,
I think you are someone who use to post here and stopped for a bit. If I am correct I'd like to welcome you back before the shit starts hitting the fan.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 00:41:57 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Hey Jude
Message:
Thanks for the welcome back!
Regards from Va..oooppps..I mean Keith.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 09:07:59 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Honestly, Keith
Message:
Honestly, Keith, don't you feel better posting under your own name? Isn't there something just a bit more real about it all?

Just asking.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:04:34 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Cheddarman
Subject: Hey Jude
Message:
Dear Ched, et al,
Have you ever seen the movie The Never Ending Story. It is kids movie with a message for the adults in the audience also, those are the most appreciated kids movies. I really enjoyed it. There was a sequel also but I'm not very into sequels so I haven't seen it.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:12:49 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: QUIZ -- Johnny Carson
Message:
I thought I would move this up to give everyone an equal chance.

For 10 points, what was the joke Johnny Carson did in his monologue on the Tonight Show when BM got married in 1974?

Come on, come on, I know you exes remember.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 09:37:24 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: QUIZ -- Johnny Carson
Message:
This is how it went:....Heeeeeere's Johnny!

'Hey folks, didja see the young teenage Gooroo, the GOOROOO MaHaRa GEE, is that how you pronounce it? (shrugs his shoulders, looks over at Ed McMahon who we hear laughing uproariously at absolutely nothing)...anyway, get this folks, he's only 16 years old and he calls himself the Lord of the Universe! Well, folks the Lord of the Universe has married one of his followers, an airline stewardess! (lifts eyebrows, catcalls from audience). When she was interviewed after the wedding she said that she never knew this was what he meant when he said he could make her... one with God! (laughs and more catcalls from audience)
Hey, didja hear about the phone call that Richard Nixon made in the White House to...'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:29:50 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: John
Subject: QUIZ -- Johnny Carson
Message:
Golly John. You're always beating me to the punchline.

But I thought it went something like, 'Why did the Lord of the Universe marry his secretary? To get a little peace on earth.'

Or maybe,
Hollywood is planning a remake of a movie which will star the 16-year old boy guru Maharaj Ji who married a 24-year old flight attendant. The movie: Carnal Knowledge.

Just kidding around,
eb
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:34:19 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: QUIZ -- Johnny Carson
Message:
I am LOLROTF!!!(Well almost) Carol
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:41:39 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: QUIZ -- Johnny Carson
Message:
I agree with Carol - eb, you are funnier than Johnny Carson!

By the way, after John repeated the original joke, I remembered it, and remembered the premies saying that it really had a DEEPER meaning than Johnny Carson was aware of...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:50:18 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: QUIZ - That's sooo deep!
Message:
Katie:

By the way, after John repeated the original joke, I remembered it, and remembered the premies saying that it really had a DEEPER meaning than Johnny Carson was aware of...

If true, this would be inconsistent with the theory that GMJ is the 'ultimate centimeter' (i.e., 'ultimate ruler' -- metric version).

-Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:55:07 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: QUIZ - That's sooo deep!
Message:
Scott - you sound like someone who is stuck in their second chakra (remember that stuff?). You are still funny, though.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:47:02 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: QUIZ -- Johnny Carson
Message:
eb, these are good, too. But....I guess Johnny should have had better writers on this one.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:46:05 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: John
Subject: QUIZ -- Johnny Carson
Message:
Very good, John, but no cigar. Actually, your joke is better than the one Johnny told.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:47:33 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: QUIZ -- Johnny Carson
Message:
I thought that WAS the one - it sounded so familiar. What is it, JW? You can have the points for yourself!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:06:45 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Hey Joe enough suspense!
Message:
So Joe, when are you going to actually tell us?!?

Hey does anyone else remember how BM was scheduled to go on Dick Cavett and never showed up? Cavett actually got angry about it, I can't remember what he said but he was definetly pissed and let everyone know that he was pissed.

I remember wondering, even though I was a mindless premie, why BM would committ to an appearance and then not show up. Of course the standard premie explanation was, he was playing a lila on Cavett. But I remember thinking it was an odd way to go about spreading the Knowledge.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 09:47:25 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: John
Subject: Hey Joe enough suspense!
Message:
Dear John,
I guess I didn't watch tv in my premie days but I use to have a huge crush on Dick Cavett when I was in junior high. I sent him a letter and was shocked when I got a form letter in reply. Oh the inocence of youth!
I'd also like to alert you to one way the forum is helping me. I read your 1st response to the QUIZ right before I left work yesterday and my first thought was that you remembered the answer. My 2nd thought was, oh yeah, he is probably just kidding. I felt so impowered this moring to read that you were just kidding. It may seem like nothing to you but to me it is significant. Just that much less guiless.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 10:14:19 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: I was fooled
Message:
Hi Robyn - I thought John had gotten the right answer, and worse yet, I thought that I REMEMBERED it from the old days. Read my answer above. Is this bad or what?

I am hoping that it was just temporary - a bad day or something?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 10:37:04 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Katie
Subject: I was fooled
Message:
Dear Katie,
I saw your post, must be your gray matter was readjusting itself at that moment! Like a computer on auto save.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:23:23 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: QUIZ -- Johnny Carson
Message:
Okay here is the joke Johnny told. By the way, I knew someone who got this on film, since it was in 1974 before video, and then had it transferred to video, along with the time BM appeared on the Mike Douglas show with, of all people, George Plimpton.

The joke goes like this:

Johnny: So, the Guru Maharaj Ji, the 16-year-old guru of an eastern meditational group, this week married a blond, 24-year-old airline stewardess from San Diego. [Ed McMahon is already laughing!]

Johnny: I guess this means that the guru will now be contemplating body parts besides his own navel! [Ed McMahon is brought to tears with laughter!]

I'm not sure this is the EXACT wording, but it's pretty close.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 09:49:49 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: JW
Subject: QUIZ -- Johnny Carson
Message:
Dear Joe,
And now Petrou has been chased away, who will keep track of the points and keep them in a very nice table? If I ever get any points I'll be sure to know the answer to that one!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 14:08:39 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Participant is Petrou??
Message:
Robyn,
At the risk of making you feel spacy again, Participant was the one with the table/chart/awards. Unless Participat and Petrou were the same person and therefore I am the one being spacy...VP
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 15:27:28 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: VP
Subject: Participant is Petrou??
Message:
Dear VP,
No it's me, at least they both start with P. It is usually some small thing that get me on the road to confusion!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:51:05 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Excerpts anybody?
Message:
I don't know if anyone would be interested but I was just sent some excerpts from HANS YOG PRAKASH 'The Master-work of Sri Hans Ji Maharaj'. (M's father and Guru)
If anyones at all interested I could post a few lines here. It may provoke some discussion.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:52:35 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Anon
Subject: Excerpts anybody?
Message:
Dear Anon,
Were you unsure, really? Bring them on.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:57:26 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Excerpts anybody?
Message:
Ok it will take me about 20 minutes if I use a character recognition program to scan the text. Back in a mo'.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:20:44 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Here they are.
Message:
The Path of Self-Realisation

Excerpts from HANS YOG PRAKASH
The master-work of Sri Hans Ji Maharaj

After a great deal of study, we feel as though we have made some progress on the spiritual path, and even come to believe we have received spiritual Knowledge. We argue and debate and think ourselves wise.

But if we are discriminating, we will realise that although we have made intellectual progress, we have not advanced on the path of self realisation at all. On the contrary, it seems the more intellectual progress we make, the more we are retarded spiritually.

Those who think themselves to be wise and learned, but who are actually ignorant of the Truth, are fools who will lose their way and end up turning around and round in circles.

Many people never hear about the soul, and many do not understand even when they do hear about it. Without a doubt, whoever explains the subject of soul is outstanding, and he who receives his explanation is clever.

The soul cannot be understood or explained except by a perfectly realised soul. The soul can be understood by meditation, and when a wise man begins to teach us, we are immediately freed from this world, and become steady and strong. This is a very subtle subject, and cannot be proved.

One can only have knowledge of the soul by means of experience. This experience comes from the Knowledge of the Satguru. Thus one should not dismiss this truth by means of arguments, for by the grace of the Guru, the self can easily be realised. The Satguru is outstanding, he is the knower of the self, for only he who knows the Truth can reveal it.

You may deliver long lectures, you may be a great debater, you may that all the stories in the scriptures are myths, but my brothers, try to understand, all your learning is quite useless.

From now on, whenever you see someone who is speaking against the worship of God, stop and ask him, 'How much do you know about God, beyond the fact that He is all powerful, that He is everywhere, and that His love is unlimited? You've heard people say these things, but do you understand them?' I find that people like this don't know anything, they don't know whether these words have any meaning or not. A fool who has never read a book in his life is better off than these people, for at least he isn't disturbing the peace of this world. But these people irritate and disturb others with their arguments.

Direct experience is the true religion. We must differentiate between words and experience. Whatever your soul experiences is true. You should ask those who give lip-service to God who or what they think He is. Have they seen Him? Do they understand why He is called omnipresent?

People have no idea about the soul. They can only imagine the unmanifest One in terms of blue sky, open spaces, the ocean, or something like that.

If we don't allow ourselves to think in these terms, how can we form any picture of God? We speak about a God who is everywhere, yet we think of the ocean! Is God the ocean then?

So throw away useless arguments. What we want is Knowledge, pure and simple. And that the most difficult thing in the world to find. If a buffalo wants to worship God, it will see God as a larger and more powerful buffalo. In our present limited condition, we are bound to think of God in human form.

There are two things in this life: the eternal soul and the temporal world. Guru is he who takes us form the temporal to the eternal, who introduces us it Truth, who shows us the Light of Truth. the perfect pure Light, and who thereby removes the darkness of our ignorance.

Just as darkness disappears before the sun, so the presence of Satguru dispels the darkness of ignorance. then the sun of Knowledge rises. The Knowledge which Satguru gives is not the sun which sets in the evening, bringing back the darkness. That knowledge is never darkened, The soul is never lost again.

The soul is not born, nor does it die. It is self-manifested and everlasting. Being a free entity, it knows neither birth nor death. Having no creator, no cause, it is eternal, indestructible and beginningless. Even when the body perishes, the soul does not.

By remembering the vibration of the soul, what is called the Holy Name, we receive all that we need in this world and become fully realised. The conditions are as follows: first the Guru must be super powerful, and second, the disciple must be the same.

The Holy Name should be received from one who himself received it from his Perfect Master in a correct spiritual succession. From ancient times the Perfect Master has channelled his spiritual power to his disciples. Since the Name comes from the same spiritual tradition, it has become very powerful. He who teaches the name is called the Guru, and he who receives it is called the disciple.

If anyone receives this name and practices it regularly, he will have nothing more to do by way of devotion. Just by meditating on that Name, he will reach the highest stages of devotion. All spiritual disciplines are included in the remembrance of the Name.

A devotees know that nothing is more powerful than remembering the Name.

The Guru is like a farmer, and his disciple is the farm. The farmer prepares his land to perfection, manuring it and making it fertile. Then he sows the best seeds, hoping for a good harvest.

When the Guru sows the seed of Holy Name in his disciple, he also hopes that his disciple will enjoy perfect peace and be saved. The Satguru never gives the seed in the hope that his disciple will not enjoy perfect peace.

Just as a seed can only sprout after it has been buried, so the flower of Knowledge will not appear until the disciple erases his selfishness completely. You should erase yourself until there is no 'you' left. There should be no duality left at all.

If the disciple is good, he will lose his ego, and quickly realise the Knowledge.

Just as a clean white cloth easily and quickly absorbs the colour in a dye, so the disciple with a pure and guileless heart can easily and quickly absorb his Guru's Knowledge.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:37:54 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Anon
Subject: Here they are.
Message:
Dear Anon,
Thanks, Anon.
If anyone receives this name and practices it regularly, he will have nothing more to do by way of devotion. Just by meditating on that Name, he will reach the highest stages of devotion. All spiritual disciplines are included in the remembrance of the Name.

If I understand this correctly, he is saying that a devotee need not get into any type of devotional trip, following their guru around for darshan or inspiring satsang? I don't think he would say that, am I understanding this wrong? If not this is a powerful sentence from BM's dad/guru and so we would be lead to believe, shocking, that he is just in it for the money, power, etc!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:46:45 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Here they are.
Message:
I don't think that's what he meant. These excerpts are a little out of context which is why I hesitated to post them. I would really like to read the whole of Hans Yog Prakash because I have heard some much more interesting quotes than these rather sanitised lovey-dovey quotes which were obviously taken and re-compiled by premies who left out a lot of the other more challenging stuff.
This is all I could get hold of so far.
Shri Hans was a champion advocate of devotion and of that there can be no question.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 23:50:09 (EST)
From: david f.
Email: dkfreed@whidbey.com
To: Robyn
Subject: Here they are.
Message:
in response to:
'Just by meditating on that Name, he will reach the highest stages of devotion. All spiritual disciplines are included in the remembrance of the Name.'

I once went to a 2-day tibetan buddhist 'transmission' and someone asked the lama to explain grace. He said that grace is nothing more than patience.

I wonder if devotion has, as it's essence, a similar, simple ideal, perhaps meaning being 'devoted' to our own path or truth, and not to a person or organization. Seen in that way, the words of M's father make sense, and wouldn't necessarily lead to cultish behavior or accumulation of absurd wealth, etc.

blessing all, david f.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:46:10 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Here they are.
Message:
Just as a clean white cloth easily and quickly absorbs the colour in a dye, so the disciple with a pure and guileless heart can easily and quickly absorb his Guru's Knowledge.

Just a quick one...did anyone here not ask for K with a pure and guileless heart? (M says no-one deserves K and would take 3 lifetimes to be ready however by grace...)
As far as I know and by these same teachings, my heart is always pure and guileless - heart of a child - I am always in that state in my heart(soul).

So why don't I feel enlightened and free and at peace? Must be my own fault - what a fucking loser - get a chance to get off the wheel and somehow don't 'get it' like they used to say in the new age workshops. Who wants to be the one who doesn't 'get it', right?

The soul is not born, nor does it die. It is self-manifested and everlasting. Being a free entity, it knows neither birth nor death. Having no creator, no cause, it is eternal, indestructible and beginningless. Even when the body perishes, the soul does not.

Okay, this goes back to my very first question when I joined the Forum- if this is the case, what is the point of knowledge. If the part of me that experiences this soul through knowledge dies, then what's the fucking use? Or does my consciousness get integrated into my soul? - and if so, when? At the point of death? Yes, M does say, think of me at the moment of death. You reminded me of that. So I suppose some of this melding happens where the mortal and the immortal become as one? Well surely, that's impossible by definition? so it goes back to - what is the definition of enlightenment? So yes it does go round in circles and yes I do accept that direct experience is the go. If only I had it.

M says knowledge is like a (two-way) window where the immortal can look through, and the mortal can get a glimpse of the immortal. And You get the best of both worlds.

Maybe this is silly but I keep thinking - well if there was one moment when I was alive and my consciousness knew my soul through direct experience via knowledge (ie knowledge worked), then wouldn't that be the point of realisation, and I would have no need to keep living (if that's the whole purpose of my life -as some premies said to me - is to get enlightened).

Of course M would say no, the point of life is to enjoy it and now you really can have that joy while you are alive. Well then if joy is what he wants to give us, how can you turn joy into an organisation?

Well I won't go on too much here but would rather read other's feeback.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 00:13:51 (EST)
From: david f.
Email: dkfreed@whidbey.com
To: Jude
Subject: to jude - for you.
Message:
Jude, in response to:
'Must be my own fault - what a fucking loser - get a chance to get off the wheel and somehow don't 'get it.''

it hurts to hear you lay that on yourself, and yet it is all to familiar. I hope you (i, all of us) can realize that you didn't blow it, or not get it right. This, I think, is the essence of the danger of BM's trip -- that we end up feeling that we may have missed our chance in life. I don't think so. Here's another 'spiritual' quote from a different tradition -- which has been an inspriation and which, for me, describes a basic friendliness that we all too often miss when we get on 'perfect' trips:

'It's very helpful to realize that being here, sitting in meditation, doing simple everyday things like working, walking outside, talking to people . . . is actually all that we need to be fully awake, fully alive, fully human. It's also helpful to ralize that this body that we have . . . that perhpas aches . . . and this mind . . . are exactly what we need to be fully human, fully awake, and fully alive. . . . Its as if we had looked around to find out what would be the greatest wealth that we could possibly possess in order to lead a decent, good, completely fulfilling, energetic, inspired life, and found it right here.' Pema Chodron

with best wishes, david f.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 00:27:38 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jude
Subject: Here they are.
Message:
Dear Jude,
I don't have much to add to David's post, but just wanted to say that I also don't think you should lay that trip of 'not getting it' on yourself. Plus, if this helps, you might consider that none of the rest of us exes 'got' it either!

Take care, Jude,
Katie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 21:41:28 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Here they are.
Message:
The Holy Name should be received from one who himself received it from his Perfect Master in a correct spiritual succession.

Does anyone know anything about the 'correct' spiritual succession before Shri Hans? And does he at any point mention how we can tell a correct master form an - er - incorrect master?

Loved the phrase ... the self can be easily realised . I don't remember Big Mac ever expressing it quite like that.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:41:26 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Life is like a bag of mangos..
Message:
Anon:

Thanks for the excerpt. His son is apparently the fruit of his belief system, i.e.:

You may deliver long lectures, you may be a great debater, you may that all the stories in the scriptures are myths, but my brothers, try to understand, all your learning is quite useless.

Therefore Prempal does not have the writing skills to match his Dad (or even his own children, for that matter). It also put him in the bind where he doesn't know enough to make a living at anything but being a spiritual con man. 'My name is Goomraji, and they call me Goomraji. Life is like a box of chocolates, excuse me... mangos.'

-Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:52:45 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Goomradji
Message:
Scott - one thing that I REALLY noticed in the Lord of the Universe video, and forgot to put in my review, was that Rennie Davis, who was usually extremely well spoken, kept calling M 'Goomradji'. It was quite jarring.

Did you go to Millenium? I am sure you have said, but I forget. I went and I hated it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:59:54 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Goomradji
Message:
Katie,

I was there, too and was bored to tears. I got to Houston early to help with the building of the platform BM sat on. We were 'put up' in some dingy warehouse with cold water showers and had to sleep on the concrete floor.

We were supposed to stick aroud afterwards to take the thing down, but I got the hell out of there. That was pretty much the end of it for me.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:13:44 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: I drowned in the maya
Message:
I had a great time in Houston because I met this girl that I knew before receiving Knowledge and who I was passionately in love with. I spent the entire festival in the basement of the AStrodome doing some service with her and other friends, I think it was supplying the concession stands with food.

We really got into it, we were having such a great time that we didn't even want to stop when goomradji was scheduled to speak.

And when we finally did go upstairs to listen to him, it was so totally wierd. That humongous place practically empty and that ridiculous throne.

I'm gonna start crying just thinking of my wasted youth.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:16:08 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Goomradji
Message:
Gerry - did you stay in the 'Coca-Cola' plant? Sounds like it. I remember being really jealous because all the really devoted premies got to stay there (ashram AND community premies). I felt so out of the loop that I volunteered to do service, which meaned I missed almost all the programs. I did WPC (World Peace Corps) service, which meant I got to tell people where to go to get lunch and dinner, and I had to guard a door in the Astrodome during the evening program (This was usually a totally useless service - ask David Simpkiss!). It also meant that I was alone during the entire festival, which is probably one of the reasons I hated it so much.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:41:53 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Goomradji
Message:
Katie,

I think it must have been the Coke plant. It was empty when I got there but it sure filled up fast. I don't know how I got to be so 'privileged' as I had bailed out of the Pittsburg ashram in May of 73.-- Bad premie, no bliss for you-- Then I hitched to SF, ( by myself, with 30 bucks in my pocket, shudder, shudder) stayed at the 'Castro Astros' premie house before that part of town became a gay ghetto. That place was incredible, btw, and must be worth a fortune now. Some really excellent musicians lived there. It was impossible to get a job in SF, twenty people would be lined up for a bus boy job, so a friend and I hitched to Lake Tahoe and lived in a premie house with its own private beach.

A whole different scene from the Philadelphia/East coast up-tightness. I had a blast - had a really cute (non-premie) girlfriend (first sexual experience-I was shy and a late bloomer, I guess), participated in group nakedness on the beach (a big deal when your 20). We got jobs at the Cal-Neva Lodge and Casino (hey, it was owned by Frank Sinatra and he showed up and I got to see him yelling at somebody-does that count in the celeb stargazing contest?) and stupidly left to go to Houston.
My little girlfriend cried and cried-another BM casualty you might say. Sweet Jeanie with the green eyes (sigh). Sorry for rambling on like this...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:49:44 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Group nakedness
Message:
Gerry,
I think that the group nakedness would be a big deal at my age (and especially at some of the other ages here.) Probably more exciting at twenty. It would be a bigger deal now, as I probably couldn't get a group who was interested in seeing me naked, know what I mean? Gerry, did you tell me how old you were or was that Jude? Sorry, I was getting confused by all of the newcomers that day)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:00:05 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Ageless body, Mindless Brain
Message:
VP,

Hey isn't that the name of a book by Cheapshot Sheetrock, er, I mean Deepak Chopra?

Anyways, IF YOU CAN'T DO THE MATH (hmm, 20 years old in 1973....) I'm 44. E tu?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:13:03 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Ageless body, Mindless Brain
Message:
Oh my God I'm ROTFL again! Cheapshot Sheetrock!!! How about Deepsh**t Chokehold? from moaning lisa
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:18:58 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Ageless body, Mindless Brain
Message:
Carol, you got me rolling on that one! To slightly modify yours, how about Dipsh**t Chokehold. (I'm laughing so much I can barely type)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:30:30 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Ageless body, Mindless Brain
Message:
Ok, I'm getting healthier by the minute from all this laughter! Carol
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 15:31:05 (EST)
From: Helmet head
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Ageless body, Mindless Brain
Message:
Oh my god, now I'm 'at risk' from two guru group fanatics-- BM and Cheapshot! Glad Fakeranand got deported.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 15:50:24 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Gerry and Brian
Message:
Gerry,
I must have skimmed over that part. I think the naked beach thing got me way too interested to get much else, sorry. You have a good ten years on me, pal. I, too, am laughing really hard here. It's hard to type...

Brian,
I am done with your first file. Where to send it? To the site? Please don't laugh at it. Hope to have one more for you tonight. Someone in the house is throwing up (all over my cat and pajamas) so I am a little preoccupied. VP
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 16:19:04 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Gerry and Brian
Message:
VP,
Being the shy and sensitive guy I am, I'm trusting you didn't take offense at 'do the math'. I rarely get a chance to be a smart aleck these days. It's difficult to divine (no pun here) peoples' meanings without the nuances of facial expressions, tonality, etc., over the net. So, as 'words mean things' as Jim implied, I'll take your words at face value. That 'you got a good ten years on me, pal' really smarts, tho :) Hope the puking stops.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 16:34:03 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Ben and Jerry's
Message:
Gerry,
('Gerry and Brian' reminded me of an ice cream store.)

For some reason, I think that you are a real funny guy and I usually laugh when I read your posts. I interpret your posts as kidding around. No offense taken. It takes a lot to make me mad. I usually just laugh even if someone gets on my case. That is the great thing about the virtual world. In the real world things are a bit different. The puking seems to have stopped for the moment, but my cat, if I had one, would be really bummed about it. My pajamas did not fare as well...
I am 10 years younger than you are. I was taking a bottle when Kennedy was shot.
VP
Drank the water in Mexico in '88
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 10:09:15 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: VP
Subject: Ben and Jerry's
Message:
Dear VP,
Now you reminded me of a puking story, I have a few but I'll stick to just this one!
Jessica was an infant and I was holding her up in the air and looking up at her, you know like on a commercial, and she puked right into my mouth! Now that is mother love! Thank god, my sister was visiting and was right there to take over as I ran to the shower!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 10:02:29 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: VP
Subject: Group nakedness
Message:
Dear VP,
Living in rural PA, I could consider myself a nudist, when it is warm anyway. We don't have curtains because the deer etc don't care if they see me naked and I, when I tan by sunlight(and bulb light for that matter) always do it in the buff. A totally different experience, it is suprizingly freeing. Even when I lived around more people, I found a beautiful place with a creek and big rocks and was only 'caught' a couple of times. Oh the excitement. I have a very close friend who use to live in PA and is a gay man who also was a buff sun bather. We use to go together to that creek. Many happy, sunny, lazy days spent there while I was in college.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:51:22 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Gerry and all
Subject: I was there too
Message:
Hi, I spent so many hours at the airport waiting for M and on a march in the HOT sun before or after that I actually got sunstroke! I almost passed out on the bus back to the motel or wherever it went. I missed a good part of the program being layed up with fever and chills. It was not a good experience! The part of the program that I saw, included in that judgement. Carol
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:05:09 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Naked Portlanders, too
Message:
Hi..Some of my very best memories involve cars and busloads (someone had a schoolbus) of premies going for group summer swims at one of the beautiful rivers near Portland, the Sandy, Clackamas and Washougal. It was mostly, if not all premie house and community premies....I don't think the ashram premies got to come. Mostly we were dressed, but one time at a premie's parents large property on the Clackamas River, there must have been about 30 of us, many Naked! It was a very natural and comfortable feeling for me. I loved being with men and women in innocent trust, as I perceived it. I think I was very pregnant at the time, so it was 1975. I even followed the actions of many, jumping into the rapids and body bobbing along for about 40 feet then swimming ashore. I would never have done it alone. We even saved some people that drifted past clinging to their overturned boat. They were very grateful, but I bet they didn't know what to make of us!! Carol
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:10:04 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Naked Portlanders, too
Message:
Hey Carol,

Patty and I will be in Portland sometime next week as she has vacation and wants to see the city, museums, etc. Know of any off- the- beat cafes that might be fun? Wanna go skinny dipping with us?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:21:25 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: coopmtncarol@hotmail.com
To: Gerry
Subject: Naked Portlanders, too
Message:
Gerry,
I would be happy to refer you to a Willamette Week newspaper or look up some things myself for you. Powell's bookstore on about 11th and SW Burnside street is an interesting place with a cafe. Also the old premie neighborhood around NW 23rd and Lovejoy St. has become a very hip and trendy but still interesting place to go. There are numerous shops and eateries. Don't miss it! Want company? e-mail me. You can't swim in the rivers until they warm slightly in late summer without FREEZING!!!Have fun!
Carol
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 10:16:03 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Carol
Subject: Naked Portlanders, too
Message:
Dear Carol,
I was pregnant in 1975 also, when did you give birth? July '76 for me.
When I was a premie and living on a farm in PA we all took a VW van, except the people who owned it, to a state park in the area. We had 5 or 6 dogs, no leashes and our unclothed bodies, about 10 of us. We went to a small rapids on a creek and were having a splendid time. This elderly couple walked by and the man kept his back to us but the woman faced us. One of them left and brought the park ranger back and we were booted out. No one had any id, reg. for the van, nothing. He let us go and told us we were banned from the place. I've been back since moving back to the area, if only to be defiante! But we kept all the rules.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 16:39:24 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Naked Portlanders, too
Message:
Robyn,
I was very pregnant, I had Noah in October 1975! His brother Jeff was 7 then. And Michael came in Feb '78, Caelin july '88 Carol
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 21:11:24 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Naked Portlanders, too
Message:
Carol, thank god you didn't name your kids Darshan, Charnamrit, Lotus, and Lila, like a lot of premie parents did. I'm sure they thank you for that!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 16:20:56 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Goomradji
Message:
I also stayed at the Coca Cola plant. It had hard floors. At one point Mata Ji toured the place and, we were told, was mortified that premies were sleeping on the cement floors. So, we got a bunch of these foam mats delivered to sleep on. They had red stripes on the side. I took mine home with me, believing it had come to me by the special grace of Mata Ji. I slept on it for a couple of years, even after the holy family was excommunicated.

BTW -- that victorian premie house on Castro Street in SF is STILL there, but obviously not a premie house, and is worth millions. ANYTHING in that neighborhood is worth at a minimum $*00,000. It is hardly a gay ghetto, more like a guppie-zone.

There was also an ashram in the Haight, (on Masonic) now in 'upper-haight.' That house is also worth millions.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 16:38:23 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Goomradji
Message:
What is a guppie, besides a small fish? I have heard of preppies, yuppies, bluppies, dinks, etc. This one is new to me. VP
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 16:51:19 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Goomradji
Message:
A 'guppie' is a 'gay, upwardly-mobile, professional.' There are a lot of rich gay people in the SF Castro District.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 10:19:11 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: VP
Subject: Goomradji
Message:
Dear VP,
Bluppies and dinks are new to me.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 13:48:08 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Goomradji
Message:
Robyn,
Dink- Double Income, No Kids
Bluppie- Black Urban Professional
Breeder- Heterosexual (I was just called this today, and thought I'd include it here for your entertainment.)

To JW- I should have known the guppie term. I teased someone with that today and got called a 'breeder'. Serves me right:)

I forgot to tell you this story about the term 'African American'. I rarely use this as one of my friends who is black used to give me such a hard time about calling blacks 'African Americans'. He used to start calling me a 'German American', 'Swedish American', 'European American' and an 'English American' etc. (Made me feel a little bit like a mutt) I would tell him, hey, I have never even BEEN to those places, and he would say, 'Exactly.' Now I only say 'African American' if the person uses this phrase to describe themselves. I meant to tell you that earlier.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 14:01:23 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Of Hets and Breeders
Message:
Thanks, VP. Yes, being PC can be a little confusing. I guess I just consider the whole thing is about being sensitive and courteous. I think people should be able to decide what they want to be called.

I know my partner, Gerry, who is black, gets frustrated about this. He prefers 'black' because he's from the 60s generation of 'black power.' He will say to me: 'I'm so tired of being told what I should be called. First, we were 'colored,' then 'negroes,' then we were 'black,' then 'African-Americans' and finally, 'people of color.' He's not a believer in identity politics, but he nevertheless identifies with being black in a way I would NEVER identify with being white. I think that's part of the legacy of racism. I tell Gerry that he's a 'buppie-guppie' because he IS kind of a yuppie, and both black and gay. I told him that if he converted to Judasim, he could be a minority group all to himself.

So, when this person called you a 'breeder' I hope he or she was kidding. Besides, gay people seem to be 'breeding' in large numbers these days. Seems to be all the rage for both gay and lesbian couples to have kids. Several examples in my firm alone. Although I'm happy for these new parents, I'm kind of sick of buying baby gifts and looking at photos, to tell you the truth.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 15:08:42 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Of Hets and Breeders
Message:
JW,
The really funny part of this story is that the person who called me a breeder is actually trying to get pregnant herself. (We were just kidding each other as we often do, being very close.)Her health plan at work even covers artificial insemination. We heteros don't have the market cornered on the breeding buisness, that is for sure. (BTW I agree about the baby showers.)

I think it is really great that anyone can parent now. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with whether or not a person is going to be a loving and compassionate parent. VP
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 15:23:29 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: To VP - - Of Hets and Breeders
Message:
A lawyer in my firm, who I have gotten to know quite well (we babysit each other's dogs) and his partner, a guy who is a lawyer in another firm, just got a baby girl. It was amazing the process they went through. They had brochures made of about themselves, with pictures and everything and then distributed it to Planned Parenthood places around the country. Apparently a lawyer who specializes in this handled it all. At the time I suggested that the ideal doner would be a pregnant lesbian, or else a woman who had a really bad relationship with her mother, such that she would want her child to be raised by two men.

Anyhow, a 19 year old girl, in of all places, North Carolina, picked Bruce and Jeff to adopt the child she was carrying, since she wanted to put the baby up for adoption. She picked Bruce and Jeff because she said they seemed 'nice and open-minded.' I don't think it hurt that both these guys are Harvard lawyers and the little girl will want for nothing. Anyhow, in March, she flew to SF and delivered the baby and Bruce and Jeff have a daughter. Joint adoptions are legal in California, but not in North Carolina, so the birth had to happen out here. They want the birth-mother involved in the kid's life, so they will keep in contact with her.

They're a bit overwhelmed, but happy as clams. They have become totally parent-ized. They even went out and bought a Volvo station wagon, because it's the most safe for kids. I would never do it, but I admire these guys a lot.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 14:07:59 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Yuppies, guppies, dinks and ??
Message:
I've been trying to figure out what Patty and I are. Best I could do is 'SINKS' at least until I figure out God's plan for my life and get a job or start a new business. Any suggestions?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 15:38:34 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Gerry
Subject: SINKS
Message:
Dear Gerry,
Is that help with your situation or what label to afix to yourselves? I don't know anything about your career possibilities and I don't know what SINKS means. I am in the transition of going from a full and part time jobs to just a part time job with potential to become full time. This is where my energy and intrest lies and with this one day release from job 1 I hope to be able to get something going with job 2. I have until 8/14 to make a go of it, that is when job 1 ends. It isn't an easy task, I know, good luck. Does Pat have a job/career? Don't answer if I'm getting to personal.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 16:04:21 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: SINKS
Message:
Hi Robyn,

SINKS--Single income-no kids. Actually I could use a breakthrough on both fronts.

Patty has a carreer as well as a college education, and she would never have fallen for the BM crap. (BM crap-is that redundant?)

I've been self employed (for reasons which should be coming obvious to forum members) for about 15 years. I just closed down a business I had in downtown Olympia for the past five years. It involved repairing stringed musical instruments and hand building the same. A real winner of a biz. Lots of compliments-very little dough.

I do, however, have a few tricks left up my sleeve...don't worry about me.

Hey, somebody told me the other day ( a mormon neighbor, I think) that you had to take that diaphram thingy out if you wanted to have kids. Do you thinks it's too late?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 17:28:35 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Gerry
Subject: SINKS
Message:
Dear Gerry,
I hope it hasn't been in since it was first put there!! Yes it comes out! I'd been through the birth control gamit, I had my children by C-section and with my 2nd child I told them while they were in there they should cut, tie, and burn my tubes! Now there is AIDS to worry about. UGH!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 09:56:31 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Gerry
Subject: Goomradji
Message:
Dear Gerry,
Sounds like Frank Sinatra could have been a guru himself.
Hey, I also need to apologize for not remembering you were the new guy who first used, BM. I remembered the important thing at least.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 19:41:12 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Goomradji
Message:
What a strange little detail - for some reason I used to puzzle about that one!
When I heard about M and decided to accept him as my master I had been visiting a Satyananda ashram with a friend. So I went there for the Autumn guru festival (forget what they call it) and told someone my master was Maharaji and she said - oh - Goomradji.

I used to wonder what that meant then finally it occured to me she was saying Guru maharaji. It's hard to get these little details right, isn't it? - like his name?

By the way, I was much too scared to just say - Goomradji? what's that?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:22:21 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Excerpts anybody?
Message:
Yes please
may the truth set me free
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 21:01:09 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Excerpts anybody?
Message:
Anon, very interesting. Where did you get these?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:16:24 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Excerpts anybody?
Message:
JW,
I have been trying to get hold of the whole book but no-one I know has it. This friend of mine had these extracts though, which he kindly sent me.
Regarding the succession history issue, I believe Scott is currently about to get hold of another book ( which I am eagerly awaiting) which is about Swarupanand, Shri Hans Ji's guru.

Jean-Michel,
if you want to convert any of the book to text, in order to post extracts, the quickest way is to use Character Recognition software and a scanner. This way you scan each page and it automatically converts it into text within your word processor.
If I could get this blessed book I would do it myself.
PS: I see the French Revolution has begun in earnest!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 09:47:53 (EST)
From: jean-michel
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Scan
Message:
OK
the problem might be that my copy is not very good
You can read it, but the print is not very dark.
It's obviously been photocopied a few times, and my copy is not an
excellent one.
I'll try to scan it asap, that is not today!
I also own copies of an old Indian DLM booklet from the 60s,
giving the whole official story about DLM, shri hans, his children, etc

Revolution in progress ....
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 10:06:51 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: jean-michel
Subject: Scan
Message:
jean-michel and brian

If you can't scan it I offer to key it
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:20:22 (EST)
From: JM
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: Scan: I'll try
Message:
Ok fine,
if the scan doesn't work, I'll mail it to you ....
You'll have plenty of service!
Do you know that BM is going to be VERY pissed ?
he never wanted this to be published, of course!!!!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:23:12 (EST)
From: jude
Email: None
To: JM
Subject: Scan: I'll try
Message:
Do you know that BM is going to be VERY pissed ?
he never wanted this to be published, of course!!!!!


oh well in that case....

Seriously though, why didn't he ever want it published?
This is all new to me
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 16:23:31 (EST)
From: JM
Email: None
To: jude
Subject: RIDICULOUS STUFF
Message:
That's why he doesn't (I mean, didn't) want to have it published.

It's a lot of Indian philosophy!

Now whether he likes it or not : it's going to be published.

I also imagine that not publishing it, and playing the kind of game where he wants to keep it for him alone gives a picture of the book being tooooooo holy for us mere human beings.
The trality is slightly different ....
It's not worth ANYTHING !
Old mahatmas handbook, full of Indian dust ....
You won't learn anything from it, nor did anybody.
Look what happened to all these poor indian fellows?
Where did that kind of philosophy lead them ?
Abusing children, female premies, almost killing people,
.....

What a profound realization must these guys have had !
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 03:48:17 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: I have the whole book!
Message:
I own a copy of the book, like many premies and somes exes
do
......
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 16:41:27 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hey, premies, que pasa?
Message:
I wonder why we haven't heard a peep from any premies concering Satpal Maharaji. I'm referring to the revelation that Maharaji's older brother now claims that he was the guru all along and even denies the existence of Maharaji and Raja Ji. How does that rub you, premies?

Does it make you feel that your Maharaji is so much more honest and legit than his dastardly two older brothers (Shri Bholay Ji [aka Bhole Ji] can also be found on Satpal's page and apparently joins in the ruse)?

Or does it, perhaps, make you really wonder what the hell is going on with the Rawat family business?

Sincere as I can be,

Jim
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 17:36:41 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, premies, que pasa?
Message:
Where have all the premies gone
Long time passing,
Where have all the premies gone
Long time ago
Where have all the premies gone
Gone to Miami every one
When will they ever learn
When will they ever learn.

I understand there is a 'guru-do' in Miami as we post.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 17:42:01 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Silly me
Message:
Especially because I talked with Linda Gross again today. She'd sent me a short note confirming that she'd sent my note along to Maharaji but couldn't say when, if ever, I'd get a response because of his tour.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 05:00:50 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, premies, que pasa?
Message:
Jim,

Miami is a little far for me this time, and I dropped by to see how the 70's were going.

Just have to say please hurry and get your web site connected to Satpals.

After all you all have something in common right?

Yes Satpal and CO. are EX-PREMIES TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The same amazing memory loss and everything!!!

We're killing ourselves!!

Bruce
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 05:22:27 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Hey, premies, que pasa?
Message:
Dear Bruce

This is not the 70's

I can tell you that much my friend
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:58:14 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Bruce
Subject: A Satguru for the 90's
Message:
So what are you referring to here, Bruce?

The new, scaled-down, faster, Jet-propelled Lord Of The Universe? A microwave-able messiah? Do tell. We are so locked into a past that Maharaji AND Satpal believe never even happened.

You can put us straight, Bruce. Tell us of the accomodations at the Convention Center of The Future. I'm still waiting for that one.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 16:06:48 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Letter to Mr Shenoy
Message:
Dear Mr. T V R Shenoy:

Hi, I found your article 'At least all of Rabri Devi's ministers come from her own party...' by doing a search for Shri Satpal Maharaj and wonder how much you know about this guy.

I am a former follower of his younger brother, Prempal Rawat, who I worshipped as Guru Maharaj Ji from 1973 until 1981. Naive and idealistic in my youth, I accepted the pitch Maharaj Ji (now known as 'Maharaji') and his 'Holy Family' made that he, Maharaji, was the greatest incarnation of God to ever trod the face of the earth. Apparently, Maharaji inherited the throne of Divine Light Mission (now known as 'Elan Vital') from his father at the amazing age of eight. His three older brothers, including Satpal the eldest (whom we then knew as 'Bal Bhagwan Ji') all joined in the presentation of Maharaji as the Supreme Lord in Human Form.

Maharaji brought his mission to the west in 1971 and attracted a fair bit of curiosity. Indeed, it was DLM's concerted aim to draw as much publicity as possible back then. After all, the Lord was here and was promising to usher in a millenium of peace within a few years if not sooner. Satpal was one of his kid brother's most important and tireless promoters.

After Maharaji and his next eldest brother, Raja Ji, married western women against the wishes of their mother, and after the debacle of a large program at the Houston Astrodome, which Satpal was particularly instrumental in touting as the 'greatest event in human history', mom, Satpal and the remaining brother broke away from Prempal and fought him in the Indian courts for the assets of DLM. Apparently, the judge admonished them both for behaving as anything BUT 'holy'. I'm not sure what the actual ruling was, however.

Now, it appears, Satpal is parading as the legitimate heir to his father's throne. But it gets better: his official history, the story he tells all his devotees, is that he only has one brother, not three, and that he was the descendent guru from the time of dad's death in 1966. This, of course, is a complete lie. The truth is, as I've said, that Satpal worshipped the kid for at least eight years.

Some relevant sites you might want to check out are:

http://www.ex-premie.org/index.htm

which is the site for disgruntled followers of Maharaji, and

http://www.angelfire.com/sc/manavdharma/

a site put up by a young follower of Satpal. Note the fraudulent history he's included from one of Satpal's publications.

So, I don't know how common this kind of travesty is in India, for a former cabinet minister to be involved in such shenanigans. It's a farcical charade almost beyond compare, in my humble opinion. To this day, both Satpal and Prempal have their followers and, apaprently, neither flock knows about the other!

I'd imagine that any Indian journalist could have a heyday with this story. Please let me know if you're interested further. If I can assist in any respect, I'd be happy to oblige.

Sincerely,

Jim Heller
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 14:32:53 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Sublime Source of Joy
Message:
This just in on CNN:

Rats just want to have fun.

The fact that rats can laugh, and do, is nothing new to scientists. But a researcher at Bowling Green State University found that the rodents most people consider filthy pests are also playful -- and love to be tickled.

'About a year ago, I literally came into the lab one morning and said, 'Let's go tickle some rats,'' said Jaak Panksepp, a psychobiologist. 'As soon as we did it, it was 'Eureka!' This vocalization came on right away, and more intense than before. And the data have literally been flowing ever since.'

A graduate student came up with the idea of recording the giggling rats by using 'bat detectors,' sophisticated instruments that register high-pitched sounds humans cannot hear.

'Lo and behold ... it sounded like a playground,' Panksepp said, adding that keeping rats laughing isn't difficult.

'It's quite easy. They're small, of course, but it's really no different than running your fingers as if you're tickling a child,' he said. 'You get the most laughter at the nape of the neck, where they direct each other's play behavior.'

Rats register their gratitude with little nips.

'I have literally tickled hundreds of rats,' Panksepp said. 'The amazing thing is, prior to starting this line of research, I had never been bitten by a rat. But since I've started this, I've been bitten hundreds, if not thousands, of times, but always in a playful way.

'The skin has never been broken. It's like a puppy dog biting you.'

Panksepp knows people may laugh at his research, but he doesn't care since his goal is to track the biological origins of joy.

'We interpret this as a primitive, childlike joyfulness,' he said. 'Where do we humans get more laughter than anywhere else? On the playground, where kids are running and playing. It's the same with tickled rats.'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index