Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 6

From: May 2, 1998

To: May 11, 1998

Page: 4 Of: 5



JW -:- Lord of the Universe Video -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 13:18:49 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Lord of the Universe Video -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 13:37:45 (EST)
____Jim -:- Lord of the Universe Video -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 13:56:06 (EST)
______JW -:- Lord of the Universe Video -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 14:08:34 (EST)
________Jim -:- Lord of the Universe Video -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 14:18:52 (EST)
__________John -:- News flash! Jim is really CD! -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 14:29:25 (EST)
__________CD -:- our Universe then and now -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 21:31:18 (EST)
______JW -:- Lord of the Universe Video -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 14:20:58 (EST)
______Rick -:- Lord of the Universe Video -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 16:41:12 (EST)
________JW -:- Lord of the Universe Video -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 16:42:34 (EST)
__________Rick -:- Lord of the Universe Video -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:38:59 (EST)
________Jim -:- Lord of the Universe Video -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 16:43:37 (EST)
__________Rick -:- Lord of the Universe Video -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:34:52 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Lord of the Universe Video -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:56:05 (EST)
__Lg -:- Lord of the Universe Video -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 14:28:07 (EST)
__VP -:- Lord of the Universe Video -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 15:01:28 (EST)
____John -:- Stargazing -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 15:23:25 (EST)
______Jim -:- Stargazing -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 15:25:14 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Stargazing -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 15:55:21 (EST)
__________John -:- Stargazing -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 16:04:28 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- Stargazing -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 00:20:59 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- We're No Angels -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 00:38:36 (EST)
______________Cheddar -:- We're No Angels -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 06:00:00 (EST)
________________Robyn -:- We're No Angels -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:35:42 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Stargazing -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 17:51:03 (EST)
__________Katie -:- Stargazing -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:11:23 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Oh come on, Katie -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:22:07 (EST)
______________Katie -:- Jim you win! -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:33:48 (EST)
________________Jim -:- Jim you win! -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:57:07 (EST)
__________________Katie -:- Jim you win! -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:27:17 (EST)
____________________Rick -:- Jim you win! -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 21:42:08 (EST)
______VP -:- Stargazing -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 15:50:59 (EST)
________Gerry -:- Stargazing -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 16:16:27 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Stargazing -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 16:18:31 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- Stargazing -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 17:53:12 (EST)
________John -:- Stargazing -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 16:49:46 (EST)
__________VP -:- Stargazing -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 22:16:12 (EST)
________JW -:- Stargazing -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 21:29:49 (EST)
__Nigel -:- Have I missed something? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 15:32:20 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- The BM -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 15:59:13 (EST)
______Joy -:- The BM -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:12:19 (EST)
________JW -:- The BM -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:16:09 (EST)
________Mickey the Pharisee -:- The BM -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:13:08 (EST)
__________Katie -:- Michael off topic -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:24:27 (EST)
____________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Michael off topic -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 22:49:54 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- The BM -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:40:31 (EST)
____________Mickey the Pharisee -:- The BM -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:12:58 (EST)
____JW -:- Have I missed something? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 16:51:31 (EST)
______John -:- Have I missed something? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 17:08:51 (EST)
________JW -:- Have I missed something? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 17:33:37 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Have I missed something? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 17:57:28 (EST)
__________Gerry -:- Have I missed something? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:01:43 (EST)
____________Robyn -:- Have I missed something? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:03:08 (EST)
______________Gerry -:- Have I missed something? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:14:04 (EST)
________________Katie -:- Have I missed something? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:35:12 (EST)
__________________Gerry -:- Have I missed something? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:40:05 (EST)
________________Robyn -:- Have I missed something? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:39:30 (EST)
__________________Still Crazy -:- Have I missed something? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:58:54 (EST)
__________John -:- Feeling loopy -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 21:49:01 (EST)
______Nigel -:- Have I missed something? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:00:10 (EST)
________JW -:- Have I missed something? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:02:48 (EST)
__________nigel -:- Have I missed something? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:10:22 (EST)
____________JW -:- Have I missed something? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:15:03 (EST)
______________JW -:- Nigel - no offense -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:19:28 (EST)
________________nigel -:- Nigel - no offense -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:36:33 (EST)
__________________JW -:- Nigel - no offense -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:40:21 (EST)
________________Robyn -:- Nigel - no offense -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:58:51 (EST)
__________________JW -:- Nigel - no offense -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:35:18 (EST)
______________nigel -:- Have I missed something? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:32:16 (EST)
________________Jim -:- Have I missed something? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:57:21 (EST)
__________________nigel -:- Have I missed something? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 21:10:25 (EST)
____________________Robyn -:- Have I missed something? -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 09:04:57 (EST)
________________JW -:- Have I missed something? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:57:29 (EST)
__________________Jim -:- Just like Mili, eh? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:59:36 (EST)
__________________nigel -:- Have I missed something? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 21:32:00 (EST)
____________________JW -:- Have I missed something? -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 23:53:23 (EST)
__________________Robyn -:- Have I missed something? -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 09:09:07 (EST)
____________________JW -:- Have I missed something? -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:37:44 (EST)
________________Scott T. -:- Have I missed something? -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 00:14:19 (EST)
__Katie -:- Video sharing -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 16:03:16 (EST)
____RD -:- Video sharing AND Request -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:25:52 (EST)
______Katie -:- Video sharing AND Request -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:33:29 (EST)
______JW -:- Video sharing AND Request -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:42:36 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Video sharing AND Request -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:47:22 (EST)
______Jude -:- Video sharing AND Request -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:59:18 (EST)
______Still Crazy -:- Video sharing AND Request -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:06:35 (EST)
______Jim -:- You might be lucky, RD -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:26:29 (EST)
________RD -:- You might be lucky, RD -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 00:38:24 (EST)
______VP -:- RD-kids and programs -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 23:06:30 (EST)
__Paul -:- Lord of the Universe Video -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 16:53:59 (EST)
____JW -:- To Paul and a Quiz -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 17:26:46 (EST)
______Robyn -:- To Paul and a Quiz -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:02:20 (EST)
______Paul -:- To Paul and a Quiz -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:05:17 (EST)
________Katie -:- To Paul -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:13:19 (EST)
__Still Crazy -:- Lord of the Universe Video -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:46:13 (EST)
____JW -:- Lord of the Universe Video -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:53:20 (EST)
______Still Crazy -:- Lord of the Universe Video -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:16:51 (EST)
__Katie -:- Lord of the Universe Video II -:- Tues, May 05, 1998 at 23:48:29 (EST)
____VP -:- Lord of the Swan faucets -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 00:06:31 (EST)
______Katie -:- The Perfect Master Bedroom -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 00:17:32 (EST)
________VP -:- The Perfect Master Bedroom -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 00:22:47 (EST)
__________Katie -:- The Perfect Master Bedroom -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 00:42:09 (EST)
____________VP -:- The Perfect Master Bedroom -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 01:14:03 (EST)
______________Katie -:- The Perfect Master Bedroom -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 01:33:05 (EST)
________Gerry -:- The Load of the Universe video -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:51:46 (EST)
__________Katie -:- Video sharing - JW please read -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:58:35 (EST)
____________JW -:- Video sharing - JW please read -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:08:01 (EST)
______________Katie -:- Video sharing - JW thank you! -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:20:30 (EST)
________________JW -:- Video sharing - JW thank you! -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:24:38 (EST)
________________Still Crazy -:- Video sharing - JW thank you! -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:01:55 (EST)
__________________JW -:- Video sharing - JW thank you! -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:14:27 (EST)
____________________Still Crazy -:- Video sharing - JW thank you! -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 15:15:54 (EST)
______________________JW -:- Video sharing - JW thank you! -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 15:22:49 (EST)
________________________Still Crazy -:- Video sharing - JW thank you! -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 18:01:11 (EST)
__________________________JW -:- Video sharing - JW thank you! -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 18:15:05 (EST)
____________________________Still Crazy -:- Video sharing - JW thank you! -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 19:21:11 (EST)
______________________________JW -:- Video sharing - JW thank you! -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 19:44:55 (EST)
________________________________Jude -:- Video sharing - JW thank you! -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 20:29:09 (EST)
__________________________VP -:- Video sharing - JW thank you! -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 19:32:21 (EST)
______________________Katie -:- Video sharing - please clarify -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 16:54:31 (EST)
________________________JW -:- Video sharing - please clarify -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 17:00:55 (EST)
__________________________Katie -:- Video sharing - please clarify -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 17:04:00 (EST)
____________________________JW -:- Video sharing - please clarify -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 17:26:20 (EST)
____________________________Still Crazy -:- Video sharing - please clarify -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 18:04:23 (EST)
______________________________Katie -:- Video sharing - please clarify -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 20:00:42 (EST)
____JW -:- Lord of the Universe Video II -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:04:11 (EST)
______Katie -:- Lord of the Universe Video II -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:11:35 (EST)
________JW -:- Lord of the Universe Video II -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:27:15 (EST)
__________Katie -:- Lord of the Universe Video II -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:31:19 (EST)
____________VP -:- Lord of the Universe Video II -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:39:59 (EST)
______________JW to VP and Katie -:- Lord of the Universe Video II -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:47:58 (EST)
________________Katie -:- Lord of the Universe Video II -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 16:46:54 (EST)
________Still Crazy -:- Lord of the Universe Video II -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:11:03 (EST)
__________JW -:- Lord of the Universe Video II -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:57:01 (EST)
____________Still Crazy -:- Lord of the Universe Video II -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 15:22:24 (EST)
______________John -:- question -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 15:51:08 (EST)
________________JW -:- question -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 16:03:00 (EST)
________________Still Crazy -:- question -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 17:57:27 (EST)
__________________JW -:- question -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 18:01:30 (EST)
____________________Still Crazy -:- question -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 18:07:44 (EST)
______________________JW -:- question -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 18:29:30 (EST)
________________________Still Crazy -:- question -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 18:46:14 (EST)
__________________________JW -:- question -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 18:50:04 (EST)
____________________________Still Crazy -:- question -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 19:06:19 (EST)
______________Jude -:- Lord of the Universe Video II -:- Wed, May 06, 1998 at 20:41:12 (EST)


Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 13:18:49 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video
Message:
Thanks to Jim for sending me a copy of 'The Lord of the Universe' video. Unfortunately, I watched it at about 11:00 pm last night and woke up from dreaming about it. It was very funny, very weird, and profoundly disturbing. I thought I had seen that video before, which I think was a production of WNET in New York and partially funded by CPB, but now that I see it, I don't think I ever did.

Anyhow, here are a few impressions that surprised me.

1. The video actually shows BM getting hit in the face with a pie by Pat Halley, which, alone, is worth watching the whole video. SPLAT!!! Very funny, just like in the Three Stooges. And then there is an interview of Pat Halley who explains how he did it, why he did it, and that later he was attacked by premies with a hammer an had to have a metal plate installed in his skull as a result. [The video also explains how Fakiranand and some premie who attacked Halley were hustled out of country and that DLM denied any knowledge of the incident. This is in line with what I saw in Chicago with my own eyes. Later, BM is asked in Houston about the incident by a reporter and he just refuses to answer the question (the little jerk).]

2. They interview a premie security guy, whose face I recognize but whose name I do not recall, who said, disturbingly, that if he had been there he would have 'slit the guy's throat.' The premie seems unfazed by the reporter's surprise that he would commit murder because somebody hit BM in the face with a harmless, shaving cream pie.

3. They show an 'press conference' with BM in which he refuses to answer any questions and instead just repeats that he is 'bringing peace to the entire world.' They also quote the 'most significant event in the history of the world' bullshit, which BM said. I think this was the beginning of refusing to deal with or cooperate with the press in any way shape or form. A reporter from Newsweek comments afterwards that BM refused to be honest with the press and that he would be really upset if he were more religious.

4. The whole holy family bullshit is shown explicitly. Both Mata Ji and BM are shown having their feet kissed, and that idiot Bal Bagwan Ji, walks around with a straight face saying that he is there to 'give darshan' and explains about aliens and that Comet Kahoutek is coming because of Millennium. Mata Ji explains that she has a Mercedes because someone gave it to her and that if the questioner received knowledge, he would go out an buy Mata Ji a bunch of expensive stuff, too. Bohle Ji is shown 'conducting' Blue Aquarius. Such 'conducting' appeared to be made up of bouncing at the knees and shaking, violently.

5. The premies come accross as absolute mindless cult members. It's very confronting to note that I was one of them. At the Houston Airport, they show a big reception for BM, which I also attended. Afterwards, they give out flowers that BM wore and it shows the premies who got the flower petals blissing out in ecstacy. The main premie shown is one of my ashram roomates, Danny Munter (a guy with a beard and crazy-looking eyes, who looks like he has dropped acid or something as he dances around the airport grounds).

6. The video shows explicitly what a failure the Millennium festival was. Fewer than 20,000 people attended, despite almost a year of build-up, while at the same time DLM was claiming 40,000 members in the US alone. As I remembered, the video shows that most of the Astrodome was empty.

7. Renne Davis is shown as an absolute programmed cult member. Poor guy. Abbie Hoffman explains why Renne would get involved with something like BM, because he is willing to accept without question the 'vision' that BM is presenting, when there is absolutely not proof that it has any validity. The best line in the video is when Abbie says: 'If Maharaji is god, he's the god America deserves.'

8. This video makes it crystal clear that BM presented himself as god incarnate without any reservations. All the premies refer to him as LORD, and equate him with Jesus and Krishna and say that the lord is on the planet. One guy explains that his parents were upset that he dropped out of school to follow BM, because they are jealous that he doesn't need them anymore, because he has found a higher love than the love they have for him. Chilling.

9 But even in this video at that early date, 'ex-premies' are interviewed as well. The best one was of a guy who said he received the meditation techniques in his knowledge session, which was a nice experience, but that he couldn't understand how, once the techniques were revealed, the mahatma 'jumped' to talking about Guru Maharaj Ji and how he should devote his life to him. Perceptively, this guy noted how that 'jump' didn't make any sense; there was no justification for it, but that the majority of the people in the K session seemed to swallow it anyway. I guess the guy split right after that. I wish I had been as smart as that guy back in 1973. Oh, yeah, and one 'ex-premie' unabashedly reveals the techniques in the video.

This video should be required viewing by anyone considering getting involved with BM.
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 13:37:45 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: JW
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video
Message:
Dear JW,
Very good post. I didn't think I'd want to see a video of M's but this one is diferent to be sure. To bad we couldn't have seen it before we went 'in', eh?
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 13:56:06 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video
Message:
Hey, JW, I knew you'd like it!Now tell me, better than Spinal Tap or what?

Can you imagine how BBJ's followers would enjoy it? I understand that Rennie Davis is selling some sort of spiritual thingamajigger now (does anyone know?). I wonder if he'd like a copy to show his 'patrons'.

Man, weren't we innocent? Those guys in the bleachers talking about their parents' expectations and, like you say, 'jealousy' that Maharaji's given their kids the love they never could. I felt that in spades.

My only criticism is that it's not long enough. What is it, about an hour? Well, I guess better to short than too long. I'll tell you, I've shown it to some of my never-premie friends and they all love it. Trust me, you've got yourself a real piece of prime entertainment. Now if only we could get video copies of some of the old movies -- the other 'Lord of the Universe', 'Satguru Has Come', 'WIGMJ?', 'GAGBWY' (oops! Sorry, gumby.), 'The Power of Love', etc.

Yeah, all I'd ask is that you make copies for a few people and pass it along.

Thanks, by the way, for a typically thoughtful JW-type review. I look forward to Katie and Brian's take too.

Rick, if you're reading this, please send me your address and I'll send you one too. After all, you did send me those Mishler tapes so long ago.

JSCA
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 14:08:34 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video
Message:
Another thing I thought was interesting was that the same 'slit-the-guy's-throat' security guy also admitted that BM had smuggled jewels into the states and that BM ate meat. Of course, he attributed this to a lila, saying that if the jewels incident happened to bring more attention to the Millennium festival.
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 14:18:52 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video
Message:
Yes, the jewels. That happened on the '72 Hans Jayanti junket didn't it? Just a bit before my time. Maybe CD knows something about it.

Here, let me imitate Chris a bit:

Yes, the jewels. That happened on the '72 Hans Jayanti junket didn't it? Just a bit before my time. Maybe CD knows something about it.

'I remember lots of beautiful things in India in '72. Prem Nagar was full of pretty flowers.

Some jewels don't last long -

jewel

CD

Swam in the Ganges in '72!'
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 14:29:25 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: News flash! Jim is really CD!
Message:
Aha, this proves it! You did that Chris imitation a bit too well, now didn't you, Jim? In fact, there is absolutely no difference between your so called 'imitation' and a so called 'real' post from the so-called 'Chris'.
Own up to it, Jim. CD is a creation of your premie obsessed Mind.
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 21:31:18 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: our Universe then and now
Message:
Jim,

I swam ACROSS the Ganges in 72.

I stood right in front of the main stage in Delhi doing security as Krishna Lila played before my eyes, M sat in his chair, a huge crowd sat enjoying the spectacle and the stars shone beautifully overhead giving me a powerful experience of awe.

I do remember that violin duet of Over the Rainbow at Prem Nagar because it left a feeling I can still relate to.

I am leaving for Miami Beach Thursday morning with my girlfriend and expect to have a wonderful time with suprises I am sure.
I like the location and the occasion and get to meet OP.

Yes, the Southern California locals are into Cinco De Mayo today!

Where did all the young pies go?

Have fun,
CD
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 14:20:58 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video
Message:
Jim, I think you're right. Probably the thing that comes accross in the video the strongest is how young, innocent, gullible, idealistic and hopeful we all were. I can't believe I was ever that willing to believe something so ridiculous. That I was ever that naive and willing to suspend rational thought.

But it actually was a lot of fun at the time and very exciting, believing that the entire world would come to his feet and be saved. But it was also obvious how one can rationalize anything, and how BM was just put 'above the rules' when it came to any kind of evaluation. Amazing.
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 16:41:12 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video
Message:
Jim,
I think it was another Rick who sent you the Mishler tapes. I'm the one who sent you the magazine last month. In any case, I'd love to see that video, if anyone's up to sending me a copy.
Rick
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 16:42:34 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video
Message:
I'd be happy to share mine, since Katie already appears to be running a video library.
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:38:59 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: JW
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video
Message:
JW,
Thanks, I appreciate it. Can you email me your email address and I can send you my mail address?
Rick rtaraday@hotmail.com
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 16:43:37 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video
Message:
Rick,

Are you serious? You're NOT 'Rick'? You're just Rick? Well, then what in the world happened to Rick? Rick, you out there?

Jim
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:34:52 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video
Message:
Jim,
Rick's not there. I'm Rick now. Whoever Rick was, he's gone. You'd probably have to email him. When I first posted in late 97, you recognized me as someone new. You never said, 'Oh, are you the other Rick?' or 'Welcome to the second Rick.' Sometime recently you referred to me as the guy who sent the Mishler tapes or something; it seemed silly to get into it, so I didn't correct you. Anyway, Rick probably got back into BM and doesn't want to talk to you anymore.
Rick
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:56:05 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video
Message:
Funny.

No, really Rick, Rick was/is the nicest guy. I talked with him once or twice. He was in Colorado. Rick, you out there? I'll search for his email etc. Rick? Rick? (No, not you, Rick.) Rick?
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 14:28:07 (EST)
From: Lg
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video
Message:
Ha! M makes me puke
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 15:01:28 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video
Message:
JW,
I can't wait to see this video. I believe someone is sending this to me...Thanks for the review. God, it sounds hilarious. Off topic, didn't Abbie Hoffman die recently? I think I saw him with Amy Carter about 10 years ago, in a department store. (Her future husband was with them, too.) I remember thinking, 'What are these three doing in this place?' I thought they would be more at home in Rainbow Grocery.
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 15:23:25 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Stargazing
Message:
God VP, you just can't stop dropping names can you? So you saw Abbie Hoffman in a department store! Wow! I'm really impressed! Well guess what? I once saw, I swear to God, Dave Barry in the airport, I kid you not!
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 15:25:14 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Stargazing
Message:
I saw Ed McMahon at LAX.
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 15:55:21 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Stargazing
Message:
I saw Claude Pepper in O'Hare.
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 16:04:28 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Stargazing
Message:
Who the hell is Claude Pepper??
BTW, I was once in O'Hare myself, when were you there?
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 00:20:59 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Stargazing
Message:
The last time I was there was in about 1990 or 91. I went to a military prep school in the midwest, so in my youth spent a lot of time in O'Hare. It was the 'gateway to freedom' for me. Claude Pepper was a Democrat Senator and then Congressman from Florida. He was in his 90s, and a staunch senior advocate (unlike Strom Thurmond).

-Scott
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 00:38:36 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: John
Subject: We're No Angels
Message:
I forgot to mention that I once met Aldo Rey (Ray?) in a grocery store in Hollywood. He was in that wonderful comedy with Peter Ustinov and Humphrey Bogart where they played escaped convicts from Devils Island. I think it was called 'We're No Angels.' They intervened in a romance by making sure that the insufferable suitor was bitten by a poisonous snake, leaving the way clear for the good guy to get the girl. Wish I had told him I liked that movie.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 06:00:00 (EST)
From: Cheddar
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: We're No Angels
Message:
That's an amazing combination in one movie, Bogie and Peter Ustinov. I don't think I've ever seen that movie. Anything with Peter Ustinov in is a good movie in my book. I think one of the funniest escaped convict movies was the one where Woody Allen escaped from prison with a whole chain gang all chained up together. The funniest bit for me was when they shuffled into some old biddy's house together and tried to look like they were just good friends.
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:35:42 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Cheddar
Subject: We're No Angels
Message:
Dear Ched,
I loved that movie too! I don't like many of Woody Allen's movies but that one was a keeper. There is another of his movies, not sure of the name but he plays a Bass Violin (not sure if that is the correct name) in a marching band! He has to keep moving his chair and sits and justs gets to play a couple notes and has to move again, hillarious!
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 17:51:03 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Stargazing
Message:
OK, I have to join in:
I saw Johnny Winter going into a new bar where a friend of mine worked. It was in NJ and called the Joint in the Woods but they made them change it to In the Woods. He was in front of me going in and getting ID'd. I said look at that hair it has to be Johnny Winter, everyone said no way. It passed until he got up on stage and played! It was great.
I knew Joe Walshes 2 younger brothers, they were great but I met him once and was unimpressed.
I knew 2 daughters of Franky Valey, by 2 different woman. After I knew them I was VERY unimpressed with him.
My oldest sister graduated from high school with Joe Piscapo who had met Chevy Chase because he was dating a girl from a neiboring town.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:11:23 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Robyn
Subject: Stargazing
Message:
'What famous person have you ever seen?' was actually a question on my husband's 20th anniversary HS reunion questionnaire. The rest of the questions were just as bad. Neither of us has ever seen anyone famous. For the answer, the only thing my husband could think of was 'my sister shook hands with Jim McMahon' (he was the Packer's backup quarterback at the time, so he was still famous in Wisconsin.) My answer is 'my mom sat next to Oliver North twice in restaurants'.

By the way, I think VP - the international man of mystery - wins the famous people count here (unless you count Jim having a drink with Raja Ji!)
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:22:07 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Oh come on, Katie
Message:
There you go again. Really.

Katie, my count would blow VP out of the water. My family was centered in Beverly Hills for years and, when we lived in Toronto, when I was a kid, my parents would have these fantastic parties every Sunday afternoon that the biggest showbiz types et al. would all come to.

Then I went to USC lawschool with -- who else? -- Captain Kirk's daughter.

Oh my god, the list goes on and on.

But I bet I'm not the only one. I wouldn't be surprised if Anon's got some sort of list he'll never share (he's Anon, don't forget).

But really, is this chit chat what we're really here on this earth for? Did the Lord give us these mouths to natter like monkeys? You want to come back as a monkey? In the words of the great mahatma Fakiranand, 'You can turn out the lights now.'
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:33:48 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim you win!
Message:
Jim,
First, you say that you know more famous people than VP (I was just kidding about VP, by the way! It was a joke!) OK, you know more famous people than VP!

Second, you say it's all chit-chat and doesn't matter? What am I supposed to say now 'Jim, you know more famous people than VP, but it's all chit-chat?'!

By the way, if anyone mentions chit-chat on here any more, I'm gonna quit posting for a while. That concept always made me feel very rebellious as a premie, and it still does.
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:57:07 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Jim you win!
Message:
Relax Katie,

Are you having a headache? My girlfriend gets lots. A lot of women do.

No, I guess I lost my bearings on that celebrity stuff a bit. I just get so excited when I think about all I've 'accomplished'. Did I ever tell you about the time I sat next to Sidney Poitier at Spago's by the way? No shit, Michael and Kirk Douglas were there too. So was that bald chick from the first Star Trek movie.

So, yes I've been fairly successful in life. Who could deny it?

Chit chat? Did I ever tell you about the time we wee all hanging out kind of relaxed in the ashram, joking around the dinner table. One brother goes up to his room, cues up a satsang tape and brings it down and plugs it in. Of course it was Maharaji giving premies shit for 'chit chat'. And what could we say?

Could we say we weren't going to post anymore if he kept that up? No fucking way!

These are different times, Katie. We've won the right to chit chat til the cows come home. Go for it! :)
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:27:17 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim you win!
Message:
No Jim, I don't have a headache. I am sorry to hear that your girlfriend gets them all the time.

Regarding chit-chat: in my experience, premies usually invoked the 'chit-chat' word when other premies were talking about something that they weren't interested in. How else to explain the hours of satsang that Maharaji gives about cars, airplanes, watches, etc.? Or else premies would say 'chit chat' if other people were having a good time and they wanted to make them feel guilty. For example, your friend with the satsang tape.

Yes, I agree that you couldn't have told your ashram buddy with the boom box that you were gonna stop posting on the forum (ha ha). BUT, you could have told him to turn the damn thing off, or you could have told him that you were going to move out of the ashram (and then you could have done it.) It's incidents like this that made me decide that I'd had it with the whole Maharaji trip and didn't want to be involved with it anymore.
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 21:42:08 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Jim you win!
Message:
Katie,
I think you hit the nail on the head. The pettiness and neediness of the premie culture, hidden behind spirituality, was the most disurbing thing to me. It was like junior high school.
Rick
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 15:50:59 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Stargazing
Message:
John,
I was joking around with JW who had dropped a whole list of names below...did you miss that? Since you are giving me shit here, it wasn't nearly as impressive as the time I let Tip O Neil play through- I suck at golf. Sheesh! Can't a guy have a little fun around here????
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 16:16:27 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Stargazing
Message:
I talked to Harry Belafonte on the telephone once.. At least it sounded like Harry.
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 16:18:31 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Stargazing
Message:
Gerry,

It was medoing Harry. Pretty good, eh?
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 17:53:12 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Gerry
Subject: Stargazing
Message:
Dear Gerry,
Did you just happen across him while making crank phone calls.
Harry is your refrigerator running?

Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 16:49:46 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Stargazing
Message:
Oh yeah, now your using as your defense 'but I was only joking'. How predictable!

btw, I have a cousin, Ann Kreilkamp, who is famous the world over for her magazine 'Crone'. (talk about new age! whew!)
So now you can say that you know, at least virtually, Ann's cousin.

Lucky you!
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 22:16:12 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Stargazing
Message:
Sorry to be 'predictable'. Hope the premies come back soon so I can get out of your hot seat. VP
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 21:29:49 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Stargazing
Message:
Yeah, there were those people I saw in the food store. But, I also wanted to say that when I was about 6, John Kennedy came to our house for a barbecue, when he was running for president. I got an autographed picture (which I later found out was signed by a MACHINE and therefore worth about $25 to a collector) and I shook his hand. He stayed for about an hour. It was a democratic party shindig, and my dad was a biggie in the local democratic party at the time.
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 15:32:20 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: JW
Subject: Have I missed something?
Message:
Fascinating post, JW. Just one thing. You and everybody else recently keep talking about 'BM' rather than 'GM'.
Have I missed something? What does it mean?
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 15:59:13 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The BM
Message:
Nigel:

I think it means the 'Big Maharaji.' There was some thread awhile back having to do with bodily functions and it just stuck. Can't recall what the thread was about, exactly.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:12:19 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The BM
Message:
I personally love the 'BM' designation regarding M, reminds me of something my mother used to call a certain bodily function. Though I think Shri Bhole Ji Maharaj (as he's called on Satpal's web site) probably wins the crown of 'BM' hands down. Will never forget the sight of the bulk of him clothed in a silver sequined suit conducting Blue Aquarius with thumping foot, circa 1973. He sure looks totally different now. Maybe they can all be collectively designated the 'BM Brothers'.

Not to be outdone by all you namedroppers: mine are all in the rock and roll category: Led Zeppelin, The Who, Thin Lizzy, Jim Morrison, at a party once with Elvis Costello and Bono etc. etc. Rode to the Miami airport after a program once with George Harrison's wife. (Sorry Nigel, just couldn't resist.)
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:16:09 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: The BM
Message:
Come on Joy, you have to admit it. Once you told me you met that guy from Paul Revere and the Raiders, Mark Lindsey, and that you bought him Kentucky Fried Chicken. I know you would rather forget that one! Let's see, what WERE his big hits. 'Cherokee Nation?' 'Arizona?' He was into American Indian motifs, and tight, Colonial-era pants, wasn't he?
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:13:08 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Joy
Subject: The BM
Message:
I have shared dressing rooms with the Red Hot Chili Peppers, Men Without Hats (who cares?), and got to share my bass guitar with Jack Ely of the Kingsmen and Richard Berry (the guy who wrote 'Louie Louie') at the Maximum Louie Louie thang back in 1983.
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:24:27 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Michael off topic
Message:
How's school? Are you in exams now? (do you still have exams??)

P.S. I'm impressed by your 'star gazer' stories - Joy's too.
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 22:49:54 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Katie
Subject: Michael off topic
Message:
I've got three weeks before the end of the semester, and I have major research papers due at that time for three classes. I actually do have a final exam in one class! School ends May 22; I have a week off and then I head to Panama for three weeks serving as a priest out in the country. Things are getting a little hectic, so I'll be in and out of here.
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:40:31 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: The BM
Message:
Dear Micheal,
My, my aren't you becoming multi-dimensional in my eyes! How did you get to share a dressing room with those musicians? I bet it wasn't a church fund raiser!
Robyn
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:12:58 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Robyn
Subject: The BM
Message:
I was trying to become a rock star! I played in a synth-pop band 'The Wonders of Science' in the early 1980's, and then in a post-punk psychedelic band 'A Cruel Hoax.' Both bands played all over California. I left the local rock scene to become a priest; one of those Little Richard kinda things.:-)
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 16:51:31 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Have I missed something?
Message:
I think Scott's right. I have kind of evolved from calling him 'Guru Maharaj Ji,' because I refuse to let him hide the fact that that was his name, to 'Maharaji,' to 'Big M,' to 'BM.' I think 'BM' fits best, don't you?
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 17:08:51 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Have I missed something?
Message:
BM is not really that accurate though because from the picture of Satpal, it looks like he could also qualify as a BM. Doesn't Maha mean big also? So we could call him MM: for 'maha maharaji'.

Well, he'll always be 'groomraji' to me.
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 17:33:37 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Have I missed something?
Message:
Satpal can be 'SM,' or maybe 'S&M' is more appropriate.
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 17:57:28 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: John
Subject: Have I missed something?
Message:
But John, MM is candy and BM is shit, get it!
Robyn
It was one of the new ex's or near ex's that first posted it and I asked if I could make it mine because I loved it so and now everyone has seen the wisdom behind the name. Get in the loop John!
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:01:43 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Have I missed something?
Message:
New Ex? NEAR EX? Robyn is YOUR refrigerator running?
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:03:08 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Gerry
Subject: Have I missed something?
Message:
Just barely
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:14:04 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Have I missed something?
Message:
Dear Robin

I'd like to get credit for the BM thing. That and the Harry Belafonte encounter are my only claims to fame. (at least til Jim exploded the HB thing) Hell, I never even got to smooch the holy lotus tootsies...not even my wife can make me do that (though she tries).
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:35:12 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Have I missed something?
Message:
Gerry, I can testify that you were the one who came up with it. (On this forum at least!)
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:40:05 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Have I missed something?
Message:
Thank you Katie, now if I could only recover the Harry myth...
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:39:30 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Gerri
Subject: Have I missed something?
Message:
Dear Gerri,
Have you missed something?
I had to laugh at your never getting to smooch the holy lotus tootsies and then your wife not being able to get you to do that. I also have a real adversion to kissing or any other activity with a persons feet or them with mine, yuck!!! I can hardly get this scrunched up face I'm making stop!
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:58:54 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Have I missed something?
Message:
No wonder your cowboy is so lonely.

-Still
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 21:49:01 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Feeling loopy
Message:
'Get in the loop John!'
Oh Robyn, I just love it when you order me around like that!
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:00:10 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: JW
Subject: Have I missed something?
Message:
I thought it might be: 'Bloody Mistake', 'Big Mac' (crap that's hard to swallow), or possibly 'Believe Me!!!'

Thanks anyway, everyone. It looks like nobody's too sure on this one, which is probably the best way to be.
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:02:48 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Have I missed something?
Message:
Hey, aren't you up very, very late in your part of the world?
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:10:22 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Have I missed something?
Message:
It's ten past past one am over here, Joe, which - believe it or not - is quite early for me when feeding my forum habit - especially on Tuesday which is pub night and suddenly the whole of the universe makes sense. (I think David might have a similar routine since he's frequently posting even later in the evening than I am).
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:15:03 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Have I missed something?
Message:
There was a time in my life when I could do that, (stay up so late) but I guess I'm too old for it now. Midnight is about as late as I can go, and even that is rare. Are you able to sleep late in the morning? That's something I usually find difficult.

It's just the end of the workday here, for most people. Not for me, however. I just take periodic breaks to see what's happening on the forum, and it kind of breaks up the work.

I enjoy your posts, Nigel. I'm glad you stay up late to contribute them.
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:19:28 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Nigel - no offense
Message:
Nigel,

Nigel is a great name. I've always liked it and I had a friend I met when I went to school in England named Nigel. As you know, almost no one in the states is named Nigel, so I took the liberty of giving that name to my dalmatian. I hope you don't mind. He's a handsome dog and very sweet. I'm sure you'd like him.
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:36:33 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Nigel - no offense
Message:
No problem at all. I just hope he's all the same colour - I've got this thing about spots, you see....
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:40:21 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Nigel - no offense
Message:
Spots? A thing about spots? Well, Nigel definitely has them. Many, many spots. But when I'm wearing a navy blue or a black suit, it's only the white hairs that show up.
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:58:51 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: JW
Subject: Nigel - no offense
Message:
Dear JW,
I was never particuarly fond of the look of dalmations but now I have a dog that looks like, and sheds like a dalmation with brown spots. Her mother is a prue breed dalmation from a couple of miles away. This is one of my long stories so I'll spare you that but these people have about 20 dogs, many pure breeds. They don't feed them or give them shelter, I have called the human society many times to no avail. They have gone up and demanded changes but did not back them up. I first became aquainted with the conditions there when a 20lb, full grown English Setter came to my house one October. She came back with 5 puppies that January, one of which was my dalmation, Kenya. These puppies were wild and only came into our home because they were freezing (it was a very bad winter with 4ft of snow cover on the ground), starving and the Setter had no fears of me or coming into the house. We kept 2 of the puppies, the people would not let the Setter go, I loved her. These were not even her puppies, she had her own litter at the time but they were to small to follow her. The puppies that followed her were just big enough to follow her looking for food. It is a tragic situation and it continues but at least we did something. The other dog we kept was wonderful, loving, smart and funny but he never lost his wildness and finally escaped from the dog coop again (we started calling it Attika because we kept improving it with each escape) and got hit by a car. The other pupies were already to mean from fighting for their survival, I guess, to make good pets. Another interesting thing I found out about dalmations from one of Jessica's friends who has one is that they usually bond with one person, Kenya bonded with me and I saw it happen with each of her near death experiences, she and her brother were poisoned once when the escaped, she was hit by a car while we were visiting in North Carolina, and she fell off a cliff ledge 30 ft up. With each experience I saw her make a strong connection with me in my eyes. She makes the cutest sounds and Jessica's friend says they do that with that person they have bonded with. I just love her to pieces!
Robyn
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:35:18 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Nigel - no offense
Message:
Robyn, very interesting. I have a HUGE soft spot in my heart for dogs, really animals of all kinds. I cannot stand to see them mistreated. They are such loyal creatures. And I think it's true that dalmations tend to bond with one person. I know Nigel (my dalmation, not the ex-premie) is so loyal to me that I could mistreat him and he would still love me. That puts a lot of special duties on me no to abuse the relationshiop. Does this remind you of the master/devotee relationship in any way? But Nigel also really loves my partner Gerry, too.

Anyhow, Nigel is a real sweet dog, and loves everybody. Some dalmations are a little aggressive, but not Nigel. He's also the biggest dalmation I have ever seen. He stands a good 3 ft at the shoulder and weighs 80 pounds.

BTW -- I recall a post of yours when you said you worked at a zoo. When I lived in the ashram in San Antonio, Texas, I got a job as a zoo keeper, the the bird division, of the San Antonio Zoo. That was a fun job.
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:32:16 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Have I missed something?
Message:
Thanks. Joe - and I enjoy being here more than is sensible. My one rule about sleep and alcohol is simple: sleep more hours than you drink pints of alcohol. Drink four pints then sleep five hours and I'll be fine; vice-versa and I'm in big trouble next day.

It's actually quite a refined discipline I'm talking about here - I certainly couldn't do it every day. But I love being up this late when the whole family are in bed and the house is quite. I can play whatever music I like and have real-time conversations with all you wonderful people I have never met, but somehow feel I know so well.

Right now I'm playing 'In the Land of Grey and Pink' by Caravan. Ever heard of it? Wonderfully silly Hippy-era progressive-but-not-pretentious album that makes me smile a lot.
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:57:21 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Have I missed something?
Message:
Like Gong?

Nigel, What do you play?
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 21:10:25 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Have I missed something?
Message:
All sorts, but master of none. Used to play keyboards and a bit of trumpet with a few rock bands some of whom went on to greater glory (but damned if I start name-dropping again). I have a collection of various folky mandolin, guitar and banjo type things, tin-whistles, harmonicas. I can sing like a frog and also play a mean gong.
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 09:04:57 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: nigel
Subject: Have I missed something?
Message:
Dear Nigel,
Did you ever hear of a silly US TV show, the Gong Show? When I was making the transition from premie to ex, I was dating a man who loved that show. We had it on and lo and behold this premie I knew came out and told the story, familiar to me, that BM changed her name for her on some beach some night, to Luna. She proceeded to sing with the most unguru like voice! She definitely got gonged!
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:57:29 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Have I missed something?
Message:
I'm not familiar with Caravan. I'm actually listening to a CD by Andrea Borcelli. You know, that blind Italian barratone? Hopelessly MOR, I know. I'm also listening to that new Pete Seeger compilation. You're right, 'Little Boxes' is on the album, but I don't recall who sings it.

It's a double CD with a couple hours of music on it. The songs are performed by people like Jackson Browne, Bonnie Raitt, Bruce Springsteen, the Indigo Girls, Nanci Griffith, Roger McGuinn, Ani Difranco, Guy Davis, and John Gorka.

The album begins with Belfast singer/peace worker Tommy Sands and that Irish singer Dolores Keane doing 'Where Have All the Flowers Gone' against a vocal backdrop of a children's choir, uillean pipes and that Bosnian chellist (Smailovic?). He's the guy who got worldwide attention when he refused to stop playing his chello on the streets of Sarajevo after the opera theater was destroyed and most of his neighbors were killed. Some CNN reporter asked him if he was crazy for playing while the bombs were falling and he said something like 'You ask me if I'm crazy for playing the chello, why don't you ask if they are crazy for shelling Sarajevo.?'
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:59:36 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Just like Mili, eh?
Message:
Don't any of those guys answer questions over there?
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 21:32:00 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Have I missed something?
Message:
I have a lot of time for Pete Seeger and sister Peg (who married Ewan MacColl - big daddy of the British 60's folk revival). It's quite hard to come by any 'specialist' albums over here - especially decent American folk / blues etc. (it's not that easy finding the good English / Irish stuff in most record shops).

BTW, Joe, was your English schooling an exchange trip, or did you live here a while - if so, where abouts?
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 23:53:23 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Have I missed something?
Message:
I actually have quite a lot of contemporary Irish stuff. It's very available here, and Joy actually has a connection through a place she works to get imports well before they are availablei in the record stores. But we have Tower Records and this gargantuan place called 'The Virgin Megastore,' which must have 7 or 8 floors that has what seems to be every CD and tape in the entire world. If you'd like something, I'm sure I could get it for you.

I went to Exeter, down in Devon my junior year of college. Actually, it seemed like I spent more time up in London doing drugs than I did in classes. I felt more comfortable with the hippies in London than I did among the preppies at Exeter. I recall people would see me and ask if I was American, before I even had a chance to speak. When I asked them how they knew, they said: 'because you have good teeth!' I kid you not. I'd say that happened at least 10 times.
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 09:09:07 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: JW
Subject: Have I missed something?
Message:
Dear JW,
Do you know Ani DeFranco's music, I LOVE her. Jess got me a little stereo for Xmas and I have already bought most of her CD's and really feel like I need to get Imperfectly now.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:37:44 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Have I missed something?
Message:
I love Ani DeFranco's stuff. I think she's one of the most interesting and innovative performers around.
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 00:14:19 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Have I missed something?
Message:
Nigel:

Right now I'm playing 'In the Land of Grey and Pink' by Caravan. Ever heard of it? Wonderfully silly Hippy-era progressive-but-not-pretentious album that makes me smile a lot.

I used to like Camel, but don't know if I would now. Their music sounds a little like a movie soundtrack. That's all I know from 'progressive rock.'

-Scott
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 16:03:16 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: all
Subject: Video sharing
Message:
I got my copy of the video yesterday (thanks Jim! I really liked your stationery too!) but didn't watch it yet because I want my husband to see it with me. Brian got his too (but he has to get a VCR before he can watch it.) I have arranged to share my copy in sort of a round robin with the following people (i.e. I will send them my copy, and they will send it on to the next person):
VP, Scott, Robyn, and an ex-premie friend of mine.

If anyone else is interested, please e-mail me, or Brian. (I'm not sure if JW wants to share his...but he might if someone is very nice to him.)

Katie
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:25:52 (EST)
From: RD
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Video sharing AND Request
Message:
Dear Katie,

Just sent you an e-mail requesting a copy of the video.
I wanted to add a post to everyone, because although the video shows M as 'he was', is there anything more recent revealing M is still 'the same' - just superficially re-packaged.

In one of the rare conversations with my ex. (since the beginning of my discovery of her joining the cult, and her boyfriend offering M videos to my daughters) I asked her to respond to my point that M wants devotion/gratitude/service as a 'Master' in addition to his propagation of K, which makes his org. a cult (I also asked her if she knew about DLM) -

her response was (paraphrased quote)-

'he's not wanting devotion or worship - that's why he stopped DLM because people were calling him Lord (this is the line her boyfriend and other premies I'm sure spinned to her - I doubt she got this line officially or independently)... oh sure, I saw in Miami (her K session with M in Miami '97) that some people were freaking out and kind of swooning to him ... but most people weren't... and you know I'm not like that... I'm a Christian and his techniques are perfect for my personality type... they are helping me become more spiritual and closer to Christ... M is just a teacher and he doesn't want worship, he's very clear about that...'

Since I've found the ex-premie page, I am convinced M's org. is a cult, and I have been helped greatly by yall's insight and support... and I have seen first hand - (I finally had a meeting with my ex's boyfriend to tell him to not proselytize my daughters, plus, I've talked with some of my ex's 'new, premie friends' that were present at my ex's house when I've picked up my girls) - how premies have an inability to critically analyze M/ to even entertain questions that are negative about M/ to even discuss M with any give and take.

Their stock response to a question/criticism concerning M is - 'do you believe everything you read'...I respond, of course, with something like - 'oh, I get it, anything negative about M is a lie, right?' - They don't respond further...

Thus, in the off chance my ex. can be 'persuaded' to watch Jim's video, is there anything out in independent media that will counter effectively the premie's revisionist history of M stopping DLM because he did not want to be called Lord? (the Bob Mitcher (sp?) interview would be seen by her as non-independent - I've seen some of Jim's posts of recent, indicting M quotes - but where can I go to confirm them suffciently/independently )-

I know, I know... there is not any sufficient or independent confirmation a premie would believe, not to mention entertain - but to be an eternal optimist - say I 'catch' my ex. in a weakened state, ever how improbable it might be, and she is able to 'see/read' Jim's video and newer independent articles. Hell, I'll go to the library to retrieve these articles. Too bad about the New Yorker article ... now ... I'm not looking for any premie scoffs that these articles do not exist - denials by premies are their old canards - I'm looking simply for directions TO the articles -
Note to premies: I however welcome directions to articles where M is independently quoted confirming he stopped DLM because he did not want to be called LORD anymore - if they exist!)

What do y'all think? I welcome any and all input, and... I hope the thought experiment of...

'how do you answer and counter a premie quote (like my ex's long paraphrased quote at the top/above) EFFECTIVELY?'...

...is welcomed by everyone - (if the experiment is seen as impossible due to the lack of premie rationalism - I'll still be interested!)

PS - Just got your e-mail - take as long as you need to send package. The responses to the above post will undoubtly remind me that 'it will be a cold day in H' before I could have a rational discourse with the mother of my children on this subject... and, it will probably be much sooner where she lets (again) her boyfriend proselytize them.... so I'm looking forward to getting the video for the more probable 'counter-punch'! Thanks one more time!

RD
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:33:29 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: RD
Subject: Video sharing AND Request
Message:
Hi RD - there is going to be an article in 'People' magazine soon about Gurus of the Seventies Then and Now (or some similar title). The woman who is writing the article interviewed Brian and several other exes extensively. Not sure if Maharaji will be covered by more than a paragraph - or what she will write - but at least it's something. Otherwise I cannot think of any newer media coverage of Maharaji. He doesn't have many followers in the US or UK any more, so he's kind of yesterday's news.

Maybe someone else can think of something?
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:42:36 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: RD
Subject: Video sharing AND Request
Message:
Hello RD.

I'm sure others will respond to your request, but I wanted to say that DLM was NEVER abolished. In 1986, the name was changed from DLM to Elan Vital. It was simply a name change.

Does your ex think that holding darshan, the event where the premies line up for hours and kiss BM's feet, is consistent with someone who doesn't think he is the lord, or at least divine? He is still doing darshan, and did at a program in Australia last fall. What does she think of that?

Has she read the lyrics to the devotional songs sung to BM at programs? If you read the 'video review' on the website, that is of a program in Long Beach in 1996. Lyrics to several songs are quoted in that review. The speak of BM in terms of divinity. I'll bet your ex's boyfriend has the new CD that BM is peddling these days. The libretto to that is pretty interesting and has most of those songs printed there.

I doubt you will find much of anything written about BM in the last 15 or 20 years. That is by design. He won't do interviews and stays away from the press like the plague, in an attempt to hold on to his very lucrative master/devotee con game. You might be able to see current videos, some of which are nothing more than BM prancing around to new-age music, but he likely won't refer to himself as 'lord' anymore, just as 'the master' and as 'Maharaji' and in both cases he refers to himself in the third person. Also, these videos have been heavily edited.

The Lord of the Universe video is amazing, but if someone wants to believe that is all ancient history and everything is different now, I don't know what you can really do. But if he used to be 'lord' and god incarnate, which he allowed everyone to call him for a good 15 years without comment, how can he just decide to stop being god incarnate? Doesn't that raise a few suspicions in anyone who is thinking, even a little bit? I assume your ex is saying that DLM 'forced' BM to be called 'lord' and that he wasn't into it. Besides the fact that this is absolute bullshit, does your ex have any proof whatsoever of that?
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:47:22 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: RD
Subject: Video sharing AND Request
Message:
Dear RD,
Welcome back, wish you didn't need to be here though. I personally don't think you'll get through to these premies, but it is always worth a try. Good luck.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:59:18 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: RD
Subject: Video sharing AND Request
Message:
Are you saying your ex is a relatively new premie?
Because if so I can tell you that a lot of the material you guys mentioned doesn't appear in videos now and I was told the premies were told to not talk about M at all to aspirants etc. this is so they won't come between M and the aspirant. So for example I once asked a premie how long you were expected to practice every day and he referred me to an instructor who was there. the instructor told me to write to Maharaji.

I guess that was over the top. I only glimpsed a lot of the previous stuff and I found it very confusing (yet attractive). So it was hard to separate stuff that filtered into the subconscious (sort of unofficial secrets) and the official line...but I was aware of most of the earlier stuff except how heavy the ashrams were. I've been involved about 5 years. It's been Elan Vital since I've known it.

So to stop waffling on...here is something that did make me think (a little bit). A friend of mine had been into Satyananda for a long time and went I invited him to see M (he's here...the one true master...) he asked me whether the experience of knowledge came from 'transmission' and this stumped me. I hadn't really thought how it came. My first response was 'yes', because I heard M say 'It's my knowledge. Without me there is no knowledge'. Then later I realised that was a bit weird so I said 'it's just inside, that's all' but that question did make me wonder rationally what I actually believed about knowledge. My friend then said 'there are some practices that through affecting some part of the third eye/brain (kundalini whatever) make you see light but it can make you go crazy and you shouldnt get involved in it.

Of course I didn't listen. I know this probably won't help you because Denial is a big big thing. In drug abuse there are techniques like Intervention where all the person's friends meet with them (under pretext that it's a party or somethign) and then all tell them what they are concerned about - how they see the problem affecting that person, etc. and suggesting they get help.
The other older way is to let that person hit their own rock bottom (but how low is that). I am not saying following M is like addiction though it could be for some, of course. It's interesting that recently a premie I know was phoning me sounding really crazy and I referred her to my therapist. She went once or twice but apparently just wanted to offload all her problems (but not to work on them). So you know what they say about the light bulb....(it has to want to change)
Just input from a new-comer to this Forum. I'm sure the others can give much more practical suggestions.
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:06:35 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: RD
Subject: Video sharing AND Request
Message:
'M is just a teacher and he doesn't want worship,
he's very clear about that...'


You might ask her why only a few weeks before her K session he allowed thousands of people who went to his hideaway in Australia to line up and kiss his feet. Sounds like worship to me.

I'd also like to hear even one quote from a recent video where M says he doesn't want to be worshipped.

-Still
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:26:29 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: RD
Subject: You might be lucky, RD
Message:
I guess you have to be fair, RD, and ask yourself 'What if he really IS the Lord?'

Okay, let's move on. :)

I don't have a scanner but, if you like, I'd be happy to copy some salient quotes of Maharaji from his official publications of the past and fax them to you. Would that help?

I think it'd be really interesting to seed your ex's circle with news that Satpal (who they'll know, if at all, as Bal Bhagwan Ji) claims that he was always the master and that he doesn't even have two younger brothers besides Bhole Ji. Sure, their stock response will be that just shows what a bad seed he was. Or they were. Or make that BBJ, Bhole Ji and mum were. But isn't the real lesson to be found in the hoodwinked faith of his following? How can any premie take this seriously knowing that right across town, so to speak, there's another fool thinking that Shri Hans gave the crown to big brother and doesn't even know little brother exists?

Having said all that, RD, I think you've really got sweet f/all to worry about. Like your daughters are going to fall for this shit with all that you know about it? Give me a break! This is just going to be one protracted exercise in critical thinking for them. There's not a chance in the world that Maharaji will be anything but an embarrassment for them. Know what I mean?

In that case, your wife's doing your kids a wonderful service, not to mention giving you one hell of story to share with your friends.

If my optimistic speculation does NOT fit, for some reason, please forgive me. I'll do my best, as will all of us here, to help you otherwise.
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 00:38:24 (EST)
From: RD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You might be lucky, RD
Message:
Dear Jim,

Brought my laptop from work home with me tonight.

Glad you responded... Your right that its one hell of a story. But, I do not relish sharing it. As one of your posts once said (I paraphrase) '... I wasted eight years of my life...' (I think this was yours). Anyway, I am determined to minimize this experience as much as possible, both for me and for my kids.

I've jumped back in this forum due to your copy of the video on M. I think it will be a good counter - punch if and when my ex's premie starts proselytizing my daughters again... my request with some antedotesl/questions was sincere... I hope someone will respond to the proposed question. I'll try below.

Now you can blow me off as a 'lay' person to the group, and not aware off my nievete... but I am very aware that y'all are the pros here and I respect yall's input... I also know you have been frustrated by the total lack of rational discourse you get from the premie's who post - to the point of curtailing your interaction with them. For what its worth and from what I've read in the previous 'back and forths' you've had with them - I think your right - they haven't been/can't be intellectually honest and one man can only do so much - your stomach is only so big.

But does that mean this is an absolute... I'm sorry Jim but I don't think so. I think the point of being rational, is the belief/hope/assumption (whatever) that at some point, rationality IS compelling/inspirational... at some point rationality puts off a pathos that can change things, make a difference.

I saw a local adaptation of Bertolt Brecht's 'the Life of Galilieo' last Saturday. The play describes Galileo's delimma of fighting the Church and it's belief it was being rational with Aristotel, and risking inquisitional torture by putting forth 'real' rational evidence. In the end he recants, but has the guts to believe and act upon his discoverys by secretly spiriting out of Italy his text. The play makes the point that even though he didn't have what
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 23:06:30 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: RD
Subject: RD-kids and programs
Message:
Hi, RD
Got the Maharaji itinerary in the mail. There was a whole page on his platform about bringing children to programs. They discourage children under 8. The children have to have some basic knowledge of M before attending. If they disturb anyone, they have to be taken out. I can't remember how old your children were, but I thought about you when I read it. I'd give you more details, but I don't have the publication with me...it is winging it's way to someone else.

To answer your question, though, too bad you can't get ahold of the book Who Is Guru Maharaji- it's full of a lot of good quotes that show the real story (as it was first told, that is:) It contradicts a lot of the answers your ex is giving you anyway.
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 16:53:59 (EST)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video
Message:
My ' PR service' at millenium was to escort and assist the PBS guys who made the film. We were so impressed that they were making a film and so naive to think that it was going to be such a great promo for BM. Their use of fish-eye lenses also helped to make the premies appear particularly weird (Not that we needed much help).
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 17:26:46 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: To Paul and a Quiz
Message:
So, did you see them do the interview of that security guy? Who WAS that anyway? I'm sure I know him. Did you have any idea how weird it was going to look when shown?

Also, it must be so embarrassing for Rennie Davis to be recorded saying that the Astrodome was built for the sole purpose of holding the Millennium festival, as was the luxury suite in the nearby hotel where BM was to stay because it had bathroom fixtures in the shape of swans! This just made it so obvious to Rennie that it was all part of a divine plan.

Okay, everyone, here is a quiz. What was the joke Johnny Carson said on the Tonight Show when BM got married? 10 points to the winner!
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:02:20 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: JW
Subject: To Paul and a Quiz
Message:
Dear JW,
Damn, I wish I knew, I can't wait to find out, make the subject stand out so I don't miss it please! When I hear Johnny Carson I always remember some girl that went out with us to a bar when I was young and the Tonight Show came on and she was drunk and kept hollering along with hand motions: He twists my tits around. Those were the days, ugh.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:05:17 (EST)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: To Paul and a Quiz
Message:
I guess I flunk the quiz.
We were clueless about how the video would look. I mean, 'when not a leaf on a tree moves except by the grace of Satguru', how could anything negative come from a video. They were just unknowing tools of propogation.
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:13:19 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: To Paul
Message:
Hi Paul - I actually remember seeing the documentary at a premie program in DC. I think the techniques part was left out. As I recall all the premies really liked it and didn't think that it made them or Maharaji look dumb! (Otherwise why would they show it at a program - even if it was just for the premie community?).
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:46:13 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video
Message:
The best line in the video is when Abbie
says: 'If Maharaji is god, he's the god America deserves.'


Yet, later, when Abbie Hoffman was in jail, he wrote M a letter saying he would receive Knowledge and 'be forever grateful' to M and tell everyone how great M was if M would pay his bail and give him some money for a lawyer. It was pathetic.

I lost all my remaining respect for AH at that time, even though I was very much a premi.

-Still
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:53:20 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video
Message:
Still, how do you know this? Was this a premie rumor, or did was that ever published somewhere? Did BM respond?

I doubt Abbie ever had a problem making bail and paying for lawyers. Abbie never said anything like that in his book, either, although I'm sure he woul be too embarrassed to say that if it really happened. I lost respect for Abbie when he became a financial investment consultant and a republican. That did it for me. On second thought, maybe if he thought the rich guru would finance his legal needs he would agree to receive knowledge and con BM out of the money. Who knows?
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:16:51 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video
Message:
Yes, it was published somewhere, as I read it. Can't remember where, though. And no, M didn't respond. Does he ever?

-Still
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Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 23:48:29 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: JW
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video II
Message:
Hi everyone,
I just watched the Lord of the Universe video, and want to add my comments to Joe's review. I feel like Joe pretty well summed up most of the major points in his articulate (and wicked) way, but I do have a few things to add:

1. I was amazed at how much all the premies looked alike. I kept thinking that I was seeing people that I knew and then I realized that they just looked like the people I knew. Everyone DRESSED the same, had the same hairstyles, etc. The only premie that I recognized was Bob Mishler. I was also a little freaked out by the constant shots of people closing their eyes and meditating while someone else was answering a question on camera - I guess they thought it was the right thing to do? It was weird.

2. I felt really sorry for Rennie Davis, especially when they contrasted the quote of him speaking at the May Day 1971 demonstration in DC 'If the government doesn't stop the war, we're going to stop the government', with him talking about Maharaji having swan faucets in his hotel bathroom and other programmed premie stuff. But what can I say - I was at the May Day 1971 demonstration and I was at Millenium too - so I was just as bad as Rennie.

3. I had forgotten how simplistic and meaningless Maharaji's satsang was. Now I want to see some newer videos to see if he still talks the same way. By the way, my husband watched the video with me, and he thought the parts with Maharaji were the most boring parts of the video. He said that Maharaji was completely uncharismatic to him. He thought Mata Ji and BalBaghwan Ji were slightly more interesting but still boring. He thought the most charismatic person was one of the mahatmas (not sure which one, but he was on camera a lot). I, on the other hand, still thought Maharaji LOOKED charismatic, but he sounded silly.

By the way, I was amazed at how young Mata Ji looked. In the video she looks like she's about the same age as I am now - early 40's. Maybe even younger. We always thought she was so old back then!

4. My husband and I both agreed with Joe that the best line was Abbie Hoffman saying 'If Maharaji is god, he's the god that America deserves.'

One postive thing - I had forgotten about the song 'Peace Now', which is really beautiful. I don't care if I EVER hear 'LOTU' or 'Rock Me Maharaji' again, though!

That's it for my vid review!
Katie
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 00:06:31 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Lord of the Swan faucets
Message:
Today I was looking at swan faucet fixtures for the ex-premie convention center now under construction (see Jim's post below...)If they are good enough for Maharaji...well, we have to get them now-just kidding. Oops! How predictible of me. Not very 'interesting', this post of mine.
Remember I said that I thought I had seen this film before? After someone mentioned the fisheye lens above, I know that I saw it. (Unless there were two negative documentaries on M where they used fish eye lenses.) It was a long time ago and it's going to be fun to see again. Can I make myself a copy when it gets here?
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 00:17:32 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: VP
Subject: The Perfect Master Bedroom
Message:
VP, you name dropper! Of course you can copy the video, even if you did eat dinner next to Timothy Leary once. I need to make a few copies for people who can't be in the 'round robin' (or is that 'round Robyn', but I'll send it on to you next.

Fondly,
Katie

P.S. Re the title of my post: poor old Rennie was going on and on about how Maharaji's bedroom in his hotel suite was called the 'Master Bedroom'. How absolutely profound!
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 00:22:47 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: The Perfect Master Bedroom
Message:
Your title made me laugh so hard. That poor Rennie. You think I was a name dropper here, wait til you get my email...VP

I guess I have a new claim to fame...Kind of like David's Cheese thing. Or I could if Jim didn't know more famous people than I. Alas.
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 00:42:09 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: The Perfect Master Bedroom
Message:
VP - Unless you want to get yet more grief from both Jim and John, I advise you to concede the title of 'knowing most celebrities' to Jim. After all, he actually lived in Beverly Hills, went to law school with Sidney Potier and Tricia Nixon, and ate lunch at Spago with Julia Roberts and Captain Kirk's daughter! (Or something like that anyway...)

I feel sorry for Rennie, too. He is from Winchester, VA (same as Patsy Cline, but he's from a lot higher class family) and always seemed like a real good guy. He got a lot of eggs and tomatoes thrown at him when he spoke on the pre-Millenium Soul Rush tour down the east coast. I went to hear him speak in DC and he really got heckled. He gave a good talk though (even though it WAS satsang).
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 01:14:03 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: The Perfect Master Bedroom
Message:
I conceed this contest gladly.
But in MY Perfect Master Bedroom none of the women get headaches:) VP
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 01:33:05 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: The Perfect Master Bedroom
Message:
Dear VP,
Even Mili never mentioned HIS perfect master bedroom! Watch out or you might get some takers!

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:51:46 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: Glyng@techline.com
To: Katie
Subject: The Load of the Universe video
Message:
Any chance I could get (borrow) a copy? My 'Beavis and Butthead Do America' tape is just about worn out.
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 12:58:35 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Gerry
Subject: Video sharing - JW please read
Message:
Hi Gerry - I will be happy to lend you mine, but since it's going to about six other people already, I am trying to get you on the west coast distribution list, which I think is shorter. If JW reads this, please let us know if this is possible.

(I think we need some more copies of this thing!)
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:08:01 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Video sharing - JW please read
Message:
Fine. I'm making a copy for Rick and sending my copy to Joy. Since Joy lives in the same area of the country as Gerry, I'll have her pass it on to him. Okay?
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:20:30 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Video sharing - JW thank you!
Message:
Thanks JW - I appreciate it. I am going to try and get Jim's original so I can make more copies.

By the way, my husband didn't think I would be able to get copies of the video made (because of copyright). Do you think this will be a problem?
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:24:38 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Video sharing - JW thank you!
Message:
No.
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:01:55 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Video sharing - JW thank you!
Message:
Unauthorized duplication and distribution is indeed a copyright violation, even if no money is involved.

However, you have to be sued by the copyright holder before it becomes anything except an issue between you and your conscience (and the conscience of the recipient).

-Still
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:14:27 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: Video sharing - JW thank you!
Message:
Well, even making a tape recording of a CD is technically a copyright violation, but who would ever enforce that? Videotapes are so routinely copied that unless you were doing some bootleg business and cutting into the profits of a major company, no one will care. Hey, maybe we should start making copies of BM's videos and sell them to premies at cut-rate prices!! Now THAT would be interesting!
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 15:15:54 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Video sharing - JW thank you!
Message:
Copies for personal use are OK (tapes of CDs included). Copies of stuff originally aired on TV (wasn't the LOTU from TV?) are so common that nobody would care, although if I tape a movie off HBO and invite 20 friends over to see it, it's probably technically a violation.

Distribution is really what gets copyright holders upset. I'm sure you were joking, but making copies of Visions videos and selling them is asking for trouble, IMO.

If anyone wants to see how nasty religions can be about distribution of copyrighted material, look into Scientology's war with the Internet. www2.thecia.net/~rnewman/scientology/home.html
is a good place to start.

Also, the Bruderhof have gotten on the bandwagon. Look at alt.religion.bruderhof on Deja News.

-Still
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 15:22:49 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: Video sharing - JW thank you!
Message:
Yes, I was kidding about the Visions stuff, however, I think it would require BM to disclose the kind of profits being made off those videos if he came after someone who was selling them, and that would be interesting. As I think Brian has mentioned, they sell at a pretty hefty price.
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 18:01:11 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Video sharing - JW thank you!
Message:
they sell at a pretty hefty price.

That's true in general.

However, the last mailing I got from Visions was a Big Clearance Sale. All videos $8.00!

I didn't really look at the dates, but I think it was everything up through Long Beach '96. (I still have the mailing around somewhere; if anybody really cares, I can look up some more specifics).

I wondered when I got it if M is having financial problems or something.

-Still
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 18:15:05 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: Video sharing - JW thank you!
Message:
Still, Mr. Ex, who seemed to know this stuff, said that EV was in bad financial shape a few months ago. I was wondering if BM did DARSHAN because he was having financial troubles, maybe in addition to having a video fire sale. What do you think?

It seemed to me that doing darshan kind of undermines his whole re-packaging into the 'un-lord.' It doesn't make sense unless he did it for his own psychological reasons, or because it brought in money that he really needed.

Part of the reason I suspect this is that around 1980 when the Boeing 707 was in financial trouble, I was at IHQ in Miami and it was conveyed down the pipeline that BM would BOTH do a program and also have a darshan line to raise money when the plane project was in jeopardy. At that time, entrance fees at programs were raised to around $70 per person, just to get into the program. So, that, alone would bring in $700,000 or more.

I also specifically recall that BM said in 1980 that he would turn over a portion of the money he got in the darshan line at some program to get the plane he wanted. The figure $250,000 was mentioned. I remember we all thought how selfless BM was, and what terrible devotees we were because we hadn't raised enough money for the plane, which turned out to be something of a black hole when it came to money, mostly because BM kept changing his mind as to what he wanted, and he always wanted the BEST!
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 19:21:11 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Video sharing - JW thank you!
Message:
I was wondering if BM did DARSHAN because he was having financial troubles, maybe in addition to having
a video fire sale. What do you think?


I think it might have been in response to popular demand from premis: I heard people shouting for it from the audience at every international program starting with the 25th Anniversary Event in Miami in July 1996.

However, I think 'darshan' was always (at least after he began stressing the 'practical' nature of the gifts the devotees should bring him) M's biggest income-generator when he was doing it, and I'll bet it is again!

It seemed to me that doing darshan kind of undermines his whole
re-packaging into the 'un-lord.'


I fully agree. I think that's why he did it at a hideaway program at Amaroo for premis only. Although ``By the way, there *will* be darshan [wild screaming and cheering]'' was not edited out of the Amaroo video.

-Still
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 19:44:55 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: Video sharing - JW thank you!
Message:
Why would M 'respond to popular demand?' I mean, if he isn't about being worshipped, wouldn't he just tell the premies that? After all, didn't he go 15 years in the west without giving darshan? Do you think he fears losing them as devotees if he doesn't do it? Do you think he might do it for personal reinforcement in a period when he is feeling a little 'inadequate' that his mission isn't going anywhere?

I guess this 'demand' would come from the 70s premies who remember when he gave darshan before. Also doesn't make sense, if he is trying to say that all the cultish stuff is way in the past and were caused by DLM which no longer exists.

I recall people used to give watches in the darshan line. Also rings -- even wedding rings, and all kinds of personal stuff that obviously had value to the person, but wasn't, shall we say 'liquid' enough for BM. That's when we were asked, and so did the initiators, to tell the premies to give 'practical' donations (read:money).

One time in Miami I needed a new watch. I asked the treasuer if I could buy one, but then a sister from OGM (office of BM) heard about it and said not to do it. A few days later a Seiko watch, very nice but obviously used, showed up on my desk. It was a gift for BM that someone gave in the darshan line. She said that expensive jewelry was sold, but that most of the stuff wasn't valuable enough to do more than throw it away. That was kind of creepy to me.

I sort of saw the watch as prashad. It lasted a long time, but after I didn't accept BM anymore, it kind of made me sick to think about the person who donated it. I put it in a drawer, but couldn't throw it away. Finally it died and I got rid of it.
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 20:29:09 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Video sharing - JW thank you!
Message:
You are reminding me of things. I was in a darshan line not too long ago

One thing is we were filmed. I remember not liking that idea - why were we filmed? It's getting a little too 'organised', isn't it, obviously to film people showing their devotion so it can be used in a video to remind people of that feeling - a little more than just kindness, I feel

secondly, your story about the watch. I remember M defending at some stage fairly recently whether people felt they had been cheated by devoting their lives to him (I really do wonder if he has been reading this Forum because who else would say that to him - except I guess in letters?)

To defend this 'investment' as he described it he told a story abut an old mahatma in India who he noticed couldnt' see. So he got them to get him a new pair of glasses. I kid you not. He said he was clothed, housed and fed and had nothing to complain about and was completely happy even though he had very little, because he had given his life to knowledge.

Now M here is acknowledging that you don't need riches to be happy. So if his whole mission in life is to spread knowledge, which he says is his purpose, then wouldn't he be using as many of the resources given to him as possible to do that...

There seems to be some sort of hypocrasy here (sp?)

Again I don't wish for myself to turn this into a bunfight against M. Firstly I think it is very valuable to start divulging all the discrepancies so that the honest reality can be seen.
Secondly I don't truly believe that M is evil or anything, or is doing this all deliberately just to be rich. I think he may be unclear himself about some of these issues - he may have a split between his own 'divine self' image and his 'worldly self' and the two exist simultaneously. I'm not a shrink but if he is one of us (a human being, not a god) then he deserves to be treated with forgiveness - but not devotion (I think).
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 19:32:21 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: Video sharing - JW thank you!
Message:
Still,
I got that, too. The abundant opportunities mailing, wasn't it? It was through long beach, which was still full price.
Keeping in touch, VP
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 16:54:31 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Still Crazy and JW
Subject: Video sharing - please clarify
Message:
What I want to do is to take my copy to a video store and get them to copy it, so I can send it to someone in another country. I don't have the means to copy it at home. Jim (I think) said this was possible; my husband said he thought I wouldn't be able to do it. (We are talking about a TV show from 1974 here, BTW.)
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 17:00:55 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Video sharing - please clarify
Message:
They will do it. The video you have has no copyright limitation printed on it and that lets the video store off the hook.
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 17:04:00 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Video sharing - please clarify
Message:
Thanks, JW - appreciate the info. I'll let Peter know too. (I don't know much about videos, but I know that Kinko's here won't let you copy anything that might possibly be copywrited. I have some ridiculous examples that I won't go into here.)
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 17:26:20 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Video sharing - please clarify
Message:
Somw big chains like Kinkos might have corporate policies that are more rigid and they won't copy anything that hasn't been produced by the person who wants it copied. You might try a smaller place. I'd be surprised they wouldn't do it, but you know how corporate rules can be.

I guess it's analogous to a situation in which you are trying to get nude photos developed. Developers aren't supposed to do it, technically, and some of the big chains won't, but most of the smaller, privately owned places will. (Of course, I would never DREAM of doing this!)
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 18:04:23 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Video sharing - please clarify
Message:
Katie,

I have a duplicating VCR. Post here if you can't get it copied, and we'll see if we can figure out a way around the anonymity thing.

-Still
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 20:00:42 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@Mail.trib.net
To: Still Crazy
Subject: Video sharing - please clarify
Message:
Thanks, Still. I live in a college town, so I should be able to find a place that will do it. But I'll keep your offer in mind.

Do you want a copy, BTW? I could send it to general delivery somewhere if you do.
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:04:11 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video II
Message:
Katie, thanks for your review. The premies did all sort of look alike, but I just couldn't get over how YOUNG the vast majority of them were. And that fervent enthusiasm for the cause. Part of that is youth, and part, I think, comes from a need to believe in something and belong to something bigger than yourself. I thought the progressive rationalization of the guy who received knowledge at Millennium was telling. He started out saying he was going to see for himself an judge, and then discounts his own judgment because 'he came with expectations.' It was a good example of the programming that went on in BM's cult.

I can see how the premies might actualy think the video was inspiring and not negative. First, it shows premies getting 'blissed out,' which is what we often thought the whole point was, and to us, it represented tangible proof that what BM was offering was real. Of course, we know that the 'bliss' was actually attributable to the group and to the fervent desire to believe. I recall that the many times I watched that movie 'Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji' the part I found the most inspiring was to see the premies stagger away blissed out from darshan, while this sappy music was going on the the background (I think it was the song 'At the Feet of the Master'). I thought, again, it constituted proof of the reality of the ultimate experience.

I also didn't think BM was charismatic, rather sort of unusual. But it is clear that even at the age of 15, he was very used to speaking in front of people and very comfortable with it. I guess he had been doing it all his life up until then. There was, however, a real arrogance he demonstrated in expecting that everything he said was important and should be recognized as such.

I think that statement that he makes to the press when the reporter asks for 'cooperation,' and he asks in response, with some frustration, about when is the press going to 'cooperate with me' is indicative of this. He really gave off this arrogant aura that the entire world was supposed to bow down and direct all resources to his 'mission' which he said was 'bringing peace to the world,' but really, it was creating a huge devotional cult with him at the center, although I don't think he ever said that directly (that the ultimate goal was really devotion to BM) until a few years later, about 1977.
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:11:35 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video II
Message:
Hi JW -
When I left DLM, I was 21 so I always remember premies as being young and idealistic. The stories you and Joy and Selena have told about people wearing designer clothes to programs just sound so weird to me. I'd be interested in going to a program now and seeing what the average premie looks like.

I'd be interested to know who that mahatma was that they kept focusing on in the movie (maybe it was more than one of them) - do you know? The one who BBJ introduces as 'Mahatma Ji'? Peter said that he was the only one in the movie who looked at all spiritually enlightened.

P.S. Your review was great (AND wicked) as usual! I am getting some videos pretty soon - care to do any more reviews?
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:27:15 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video II
Message:
Mahatma Gurucharanand is shown throughout the video and is the only mahatma who speaks. I don't know who that other mahatma was, the one BBJ said had been 'the Howard Huges of Inida' but gave it all up to follow BM.

'Wicked?' Oh come on.
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:31:19 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video II
Message:
JW - I meant it as a compliment! It's true too. It applies more to your video review on the site than to the current one. What adjective would you prefer?
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:39:59 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video II
Message:
Katie and JW,
How about 'erudite'? Sorry, JW, but it is true. You are a good writer. Definately one of the best premie mud wrestlers we have, as well. You have a hold on the logical that those poor guys cannot grasp. I had no idea that you wrote the video review on the site. It's pretty wicked. VP
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 13:47:58 (EST)
From: JW to VP and Katie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video II
Message:
Thanks, VP. It really is easy when the material is so lame.

By the way, Katie, maybe you would get a message to Brian that the video review on the site should really indicate that it is of a program in Long Beach in 1996. As the intro is currently worded, it implies that it might be a video of some old, old, program that some ex-premie still has a copy of, when it really is rather recent.

BTW -- Wicked is okay and I did take it as a compliment. By the way, you did a good job editing the review on the site. You took out some of my most 'wicked' language.
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 16:46:54 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: JW to VP and Katie
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video II
Message:
Hey JW - I didn't edit it - the Webmaster did! He must have thought you were just TOO wicked.

I will tell Brian about the long beach 96 thing, but he might not have time to change it for a while.
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:11:03 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video II
Message:
I'd be interested in going to a program now and seeing what the
average premie looks like.


The average age of people at programs today is *well* over 30. I have a feeling that the majority of M's followers are still the people who have hung on from the old days.

M's propagation techniques are incredibly ineffective. I mean, I used to be very inspiring in my faith and dedication to M & K, and that was contagious and also inspired others.

How inspired can someone get going to a dimly-lighted hall, watching a video, then getting up and leaving without anybody talking to anybody else?

-Still
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 14:57:01 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video II
Message:
But Still, don't premies still claim to get 'high' or 'inspired' at programs?
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 15:22:24 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video II
Message:
Programs, meaning with M live, or video programs? Either way, yes, I believe premis claim to be inspired by programs. I still find most of what M says to be inspiring.

But potential suckers? I don't think so.

Here's how it goes. You're supposed to invite someone to a video 'because you think they might like it.' If they ask what it's about, you're supposed to say 'It's about an hour.' I'm not kidding here -- this is a direct quote from M.

Then, you're never supposed to mention it again. A person's own desire is the only thing that's supposed to bring them back.

Since this went into effect, 5 or 6 years ago, I have never seen anyone come back after watching a video the first time, with one exception.

In our community, I think there have been a maximum of 10 people receive K in as many years.

-Still
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 15:51:08 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: question
Message:
Sorry for being so picky, but if only one person came back how did 10 people receive K?
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 16:03:00 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: John
Subject: question
Message:
Oh, John. It's simple math. 9 people received knowledge in the first 4 or 5 years of the ten year period but only 1 has received knowledge in the subsequent 5 or 6 years, for a total of 10 in ten years. Sorry, I'm just kidding, but it does work out.
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 17:57:27 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: John
Subject: question
Message:
John, I don't really know the answer to your question. As I said, I only know of one person I saw come to a video for the first time who ever came back. I saw many come for the first time who never came back. I was in charge of showing Introductory Videos, so at least my perception means something.

All I can figure is that the other people came for the first time on one of the Aspirant nights or something, and that by the time I found out who they were, they had already received K.

-Still
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 18:01:30 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: question
Message:
Still, thanks for that. Just curious. Do you live in a 'large' community? By that I guess I mean in a big city?
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 18:07:44 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: question
Message:
No, I live in a medium-sized city, somewhere between 500,000 and 1 million.

As I'm sure you're aware, M's communities are an urban occurrence. I think there's only about 20 or 25 in the whole country.

Our community has about 15 premis that support the hall rental/video rentals, about another 30-35 who come to events, and about another 30-35 who have received K but no longer seem very interested.

-Still
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 18:29:30 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: question
Message:
Have you talked to any of these premies about how you feel? I'll bet that might be difficult. Do you socialize with premies? Do you still go to videos, or have premies noticed you aren't going?
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 18:46:14 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: question
Message:
Have you talked to any of these premies about how you feel?

One, the former community coordinator, who has moved to another town.

I'll bet that might be difficult.

At this stage of my growth, I don't see much point in it.

Do you socialize with premies?

Most of my friends have received K at some point. Most are no longer involved with the organization.

Do you still go to videos,

I haven't been for quite a while, but I do intend to go again (so I can report back here, if nothing else).

or have premies noticed you aren't going?

I'm sure they've noticed I'm no longer making my monthly pledge!

-Still
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 18:50:04 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: question
Message:
Still, please tell me to bug off if I'm asking too many questions, but what made you start to reconsider your involvement with BM? Did it happen quickly, or over a long period of time?

I know for me, after I left, I realized I had been feeling the way I had for quite a long time prior to that, but I wasn't really aware of it. I guess I respressed the doubts really well.
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 19:06:19 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: question
Message:
Bug off, Joe!

(Just kidding).

My post 'The First Crack' (from a couple of weeks ago, about Fakiranand) talks about the first time I thought about the possibility of leaving M. This was about 18 months before I made the decision to become an ex-premi.

'The Second Crack' should be appearing on a web page near you sometime soon, although I guess I owe you guys the story about the Knowledge pre-selection first.

There will also be a '3rd Crack' and '4th Crack' (at least) when I get the time and Forum traffic allows.

And as I'm sure you're aware, I still 'practice K,' so in that sense I still haven't 'left' completely. My premi friend who I've talked to doesn't even consider me an ex-premi, because I still 'practice.'

-Still
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Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 20:41:12 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: Lord of the Universe Video II
Message:
Yes so very recently one of our 'official' people mentioned that of course, you do need to nurse people. At first they connect to you, and later to M.

The more I read, I'm sure he didn't just make that up himself.

So it's like trial and error all the time, is it? If one thing doesn't work, try another - people must get very confused with the rules changing all the time

Isn't that one 'rule' of a dysfunctional family?

another one, by the way, is 'don't rock the boat'
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