Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 6 | |
From: May 2, 1998 |
To: May 11, 1998 |
Page: 1 Of: 5 |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 18:03:42 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Marolyn's letter (Part 1) Message: Here's a letter Marolyn wrote someone who had served M closely for years. This person had heard M once say that we 'create our own problems' and that puzzled her. Apparently, at Amaroo she asked M how that could be given the plight of abused children, for example. Did they create their own problems? M rambled on without really answering, so she wrote him a letter. No answer. Then she tried to track down her old friend Marolyn. She couldn't get through to Marolyn who, it turns out, was still convalescing from her brain surgery. But the friend was just blown off fairly rudely by the people who answered so she, the friend, wrote Marolyn a letter. This is the reply: [Note: the following was transcibed from a handwritten letter. Original punctuation, spelling and syntax was retained. The name of the person who received the letter was replaced by ___________. Some personal references were omitted - this is noted within the text.] Saturday, Dec. 6 [1995?] Dear ______, When I first opened your letter and I saw your name I felt a dual response in me. I felt happy it was from you and at the same time a slight feeling of fear that you were here in town and I would not and could not handle the drama, situation, circumstances surrounding you in your life. I have had brain surgery and I am recovering. I can not handle much stress - when I see it coming, I back off. It is most challenging, it is a daily process, and I am learning so very much about myself in this process. First of all, dear ______, I too have such sweet feelings for you. [several personal messages omitted here] I receive many, many reports, requests, etc. from people. I would go crazy trying to fix, advise or become involved and part of the myriad of changing situations in their lives. The couple of times that you have written to me, I did not respond in a written letter - but I sent you my best thoughts, my best wishes, hoping everything would go well for you, [omit personal message]. May I please express to you an apology for the 'rude' response you received when you called last December. I have no idea who answered the telephone. But I must tell you that no one absolutely no one was put through to me via the telephone or any other way. Not my parents - (mom, dad) - my sister - my brothers, any of my relations or my friends. In December, I was still in a crisis stage of my recovery. Here it is December again and I am not out of the woods. I am still in recovery and my neuro surgeon reminds me to be patient as it will probably take three full years or longer. I had a ruptured aneurysm, (in my brain), three times I was at deaths door. It changed my life. I may not understand why it happened but I do know how precious my breath is to me! I know I don't have time to waste, and spend frivoulessly [sic] on what is worthless to me in this life. Yes, problems, troubles, still come my way, but I try like hell to circumvent them. Sometimes I see that they are like big clouds or thunderstorms and I am a little pilot in a little airplane and I cannot afford to enter - or even (at this point in my life) get near them. _________, when you talked (wrote) about being vulnerable - ________, I must tell you after this incredible drama of nearly bleeding to death inside my brain, and the torturous drama of brain surgery, the impact it had on me and my sweet family, it left me more vulnerable than I can tell you. There were more complications with the surgery and my nervous system was shot. For months I felt I lived on the verge of a nervous breakdown. I feel the weakest of the weak. And yet the miracle the majesty of my breath still resides in me. I am humbled and sincerely grateful. I find myself crying every day - my heart astounded I am still here. What I'm writing to you, _________, is personal - it is for you only. I hope you understand. After I read your letter, I felt so sad. I've always been hoping that everything was going good for you. I don't know about 'we create our own problems' Certainly for many people, most of us, we do have a lot to do with the problems that surround us. But sometimes it seems like they just get dumped in our lap. I have never felt so helpless, powerless and sensitive and vulnerable at the same time. And for some reason it seems like more 'problems' and 'troubles' came my way during the most critical time of my life. I see that 'yes, I am attached.' And I feel the feelings that go with my attachment even if it is just a thought, a concept, a desire, or my imagination at work. When I was in the hospital for a month after the emergency surgery I did not feel much attachment. I felt free of so many of the things I normally feel attached to. Before the operation I understand that my moment here is breath by breath and I was only a breath away from death. And if I was to go - if it was my time to go, it's ok. It was just fine. So free. Trusting and feeling taken care of beyond this physical world and all the detail, the ever changing details of my daily life. Everything became very simple. And now - I must remember the simplicity. There is an ocean of trouble - problems. I don't want to swim in it. My living Master showed me and reminds me thru His Perfect Knowledge how to go inside - how to turn my attention inside. It is my Safe Harbor. It is Real - as everything around me changes (good/bad) Whatever! What he gave me - the way to go inside and the experience it brings me, is Constant - it does not change. My breath - my best friend - still fills me with Life and delight. You know when you got on the subject of premies, etc. Remember this - a premie is a lover - a lover of love - a lover of Knowledge - a lover of the living Master. Just because a person has received the techniques of Knowledge doesn't mean that they are manifesting as a true lover/premie. This thing called Mind is outrageous. The Heart cries for attention, the mind will abandon. Maharaji spends his life/time reminding those who truly want to hear about the heart. 'Premies' (i.e. those who have received the techniques) are often the cruelest offenders - abandoning - rejecting the Heart's cry (desire) - and that is not a PREMIE - a LOVER. And yet the Master does not shut the door on anyone. __________, I don't know if M set Dr. Horton up in the office with Dr. Edel. Most likely he wanted a good facility for those he cares about. And Dr. Horton put himself in place. However, _________, this is confidential again, M is very displeased with John for reasons that I know, and also, for reasons that I don't know. I am also very mad (upset) with John for an incident that I cant go into detail right now. So when you expressed your feelings of hurt and frustration I could read you loud and clear. But I also know that these feelings that come to me are not my Reality. I know what is Real. I love what is Real. To me John is in the sea of problems and I don't want to engage myself there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 18:06:11 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Marolyn's letter (Part 2) Message: Well, _________, I hope you can make sense of what I am trying to say. (My penmanship leaves a lot to be desired.) I had a mini stroke in the hospital so my right side of my body was affected - but I am soo lucky, so fortunate, so very blessed. At first it was a little hard for me to talk straight. Maharaji, my dearest husband and love was very protective of? (for?) me. So please don't feel singled out because you didn't get thru when you called My sister had a hard time with that one, too (but I was so grateful because I really couldn't handle or cope with even simple social interactions.) I am much better, but I know I still have a ways to go. I take it one day at a time. And it helps me - really it makes the difference - when I begin (start) my day remembering my Priority. Otherwise in this most fragile state - I feel like the external 'world' can gobble me up and spit me out. (May I mention - I ask if you ever want to write to me please feel free to do so - but I beg you to be gentle. I feel like a newborn baby. Your letter has affected me deeply and I feel upset but I can only only pray to once again [illegible word] enjoy the Joy within.) I know I don't want that in my life. Maharaji has shown me that my Heart has a sweet song that it wants to sing. And I need to let that happen. I need to allow my heart to fulfill itself. The ocean of troubles, problems, issues, distraction is there; it's always there, that is it's nature. But for me, practicing Knowledge, listening to my living Master, serving my Master lifts me from the illusion and I can see that although it appears real - it is not real. What is Within is Real - and means everything to me. My attention to what is TRUE really does bring me bliss. It is this I trust. People who practice and are having a beautiful of experience OF KNOWLEDGE AND MASTER AND HEART (real premies) are inspiring to me and fun to be with. I enjoy the gift of their love, their love for live, for my Beloved Maharaji. [Illegible] means so much to me. I get distracted easily - and when I see devotion, when I see knowledge at work in others I feel inspired, and grateful. And when I see people with knowledge spacing out it is VERY botherson - most of the time it drives me crazy SAD - I don't know what to do. Talk to them? - have someone talk to them? - ignore it? - hoping they will wake up. But then -I know I have such little time here. As generous as my Creator is, I don't have long enough on this earth to let my Heart sing the glory and praises it longs to Sing. I have today - Now is my time. I pray that I will spend my time, spend my life (most valuable commodity) where it counts. Pay attention to what is worthwhile to me in this short and generous lifetime that I have been given. So, __________, when I told you in the car ride [personal detail omitted] that I would help you if I could, I really don't know what I can do. But I will always wish you well - always hope you enjoy the most precious gift of life. Hard blows come and go - I try to stay clear. I try to avoid anything - person, place or thing that may (potentially) grab me and suck me into a space that I do not want to be. My clarity, my focus, my attention, my consciousness, needs to be, must be directed inside. My attachment must be on my Master, His Knowledge, my Heart. __________, it is not Maharaji's world of (nasty power) 'premies'. M's world is within. If people who have knowledge are unconscious, how do you think it makes Him feel. I have seen it on His face. It breaks His Heart - He trusted - He trusts us implicitly. If we choose to be unconscious - we abandon Him - we abandon Knowledge - we abandon our own Heart. The power or 'politics' that people chose over Knowledge is sad - unbelievable! But my beloved Maharaji does not give up - He does not abandon. He has not abandoned me! Sometimes, I feel anger and frustration and start to point the finger at someone, and blame them for my stress - but then I ask myself - is this where I want to be? Is this what I want to feel? No! No. Maybe I can't change what happened, or change that person's attitude, or be [illegible] but my Maharaji has shown me what means EVERYTHING to me, in spite of or despite of everything else in this world. __________, I appreciate that you felt you could express your feelings to me. I don't know what I can do. All I can say is .... Hang on. You have what it takes. I wish there was more I could do. I send you my love and very best wishes. JAI! SAT CHIT ANAND MLR P.S. I didn't intend to go on for so long and I'm sorry about my handwriting and spelling. But, _________, I care for you. You are so beautiful - never lose sight of that. And dearest, remember the Grace you have, the Gift of all Gifts. Please do not lose sight of your True Blessings, your real Blessing. May I please request that what I have shared is with you is for you alone? Thank you. *One last thing before I end this. I have learned that I cannot judge Maharaji by the people who have received Knowledge and do not practice. Knowledge works! If we don't practice, in my view, we are the biggest fools, the biggest idiots on earth. I want to get graphic and say the biggest assholes alive! I'm sure that you know this. This time has been most trying for me. I find it hard to concentrate. The medication (anti seziure) I take is hard on me. And yet I never ask why did this happen? - By His Grace I am able to listen to videos of the Events and His travels all over the world to reach the thirsty. _______, I need to hear what my heart wants - yearns to hear. I need the direction. The little effort that I make pays off big time. Sometimes I feel dashed on the rocks and then I have nothing but trust; and most mercifully - most compassionately I am embraced Within. When I see Knowledge blossoming, blooming in the hearts of His Premies - I rejoice with tears in my eyes and a heart of gratitude and I witness His Magic in my life. ________, do whatever you need to experience that Magic. P.S. Marolyn's old friend wanted this posted on her behalf. I'm not sure if Marolyn did. |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 18:54:19 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: My comments Message: In normal circumstances I might have been opposed to publishing this letter. After all, Marolyn specifically asks her friend to keep their correspondence private; what business is it of anyone else's if John Horton's guru doesn't like him or if Mrs. Guru watches his videos while he's away to avoid dealing with life? However, this situation's anything but normal. Maharaji owes a whole lot of us an explanation for what, in some cases, amounted to years of sacrifice. His wife is part and parcel of the Maharaji machine and has benefitted by his fraud for years. I doubt she was a millionaire in 1973; I'm sure she is now. She thinks we're 'assholes' (oh my God! I can't believe I used that word!) and believes apparently that Maharaji owes us exactly nothing but, perhaps, a chance to crawl back to his golden lotus feet. No, he doesn't owe us that, he's just so compassionate he can't quite so no to someone willing to surrender to him all over again. Marolyn, my dear, I know you are but what am I? Now, what does the letter reveal? To me it shows a few things: 1) Maharaji's mission is floundering. He can't reach out to his fomer premies because he'd have to have something to reach out with; he has nothing. Plus, he'd have to engage in some form of dialogue. Who could ever expect him to pay such an unearthly price? So, instead, he and the little lady sit up on the hill and simmer over the self-decimating flock. 2) Marolyn is a prime example of the outrageous levels of self-denial one reaches in order to avoid questioning Maharaji. I guess she's seen more than enough to question over the years. At this point, she tries to sell the virtue of knowing nothing about the 'problems' of the world around her, nothing of the 'problems' in Maharaji's world. She's obviously miserable but committed to staying the course. The image of her watching her husband's bland, empty videos while he's away is profoundly pathetic. Do the kids watch them too? 3) Maharaji, like anyone, is subject to relational problems with people, petty or otherwise. Does Dr. John know that his lord and saviour simply doesn't like him? Maharaji's also prone to hypocrisy, again like you and I. 4) Marolyn's obsession with privacy further underscores her lack of control as if she has to whisper lest her master hear her talk a bit with a friend. And what is she whispering about anyway? Just his unspeakable glory, blah, blah, blah. The privacy mode is just endemic to being the wife of a cult leader who needs to maintain a completely unnatural front for his cult and who likely despises them all at the same time. Sickening. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 19:08:21 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: My comments Message: Jim, I don't disagree with you one bit, but from reading the letter, it's clear that at the time it was written, Marolyn was a very sick woman. Apparently so sick she was near death a few times, and she seems unable to cope with virtually anything that might be confronting, in other words, life. I'm not surprised she would 'cling' to what she's got, or what she hopes she's got, at a time like that, and I'm not surprised she isn't about to begin questioning her life, especially when it involves her marriage, kids and identity for a good 25 years. But the question comes to mind, that given what we know about BM's drinking problem, his infidelities, his tendency to rage at people, and his obvious problems in relating to other human beings, and, as you say, the floundering of his 'mission,' it might just be possible Marolyn might have been a little more independent if she wasn't also trying to crawl back from death's door. This is just conjecture, I know, but I understand the kids are a little more critical of dear old dad, from what I hear, with the apparent exception of Daya. I agree that the letter is pathetic. Actually, and maybe this is my on sentimentality, I feel sorry for her. What a weird life. Sure, she's rich, but what does that get you? This constant repression and failure to address lifes real problems, and using knowledge and 'the master' as an excuse is a common problem among regular premies. Imagine what it must be like for her! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 19:22:35 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: My comments Message: Joe, Now it's my turn to not disagree with you one bit! I just re-read her letter and concur that that must have been a frightening period for her (although wouldn't being married to the Lord of the Universe ... no, never mind). And, people being people, I'm sure she's not quite so blethering now that she's recovered. If there were a bunch of letters, this might not have been the best one to put up. But there aren't, there's only this one and I agree with the recipient -- cult leaders who stonewall AND their closest associates and benefactors, don't get the same privacy rights we usually extend to one another. This letter does offer a glimpse into the Rawat household. We're entitled to it. (Hey, I must have bought at least SOME of that stereo what with all those shit jobs and fundraising drives I participated in to send private donations and gifts to Margie.) Plus, the recipient herself wanted the letter posted. That's a strong statement by someone. What's it say and who are we to stop her from making it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 19:41:00 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: My comments Message: Don't get me wrong, Jim. I don't think there's anything wrong with putting up the letter if the person who received it wants it up. I was just saying that Marolyn, when shes feeling a little more healthy, might not be SUCH a pathetic premie as she appears in that letter. I think her state of, shall we say, MIND, has to be taken into account. I paid for part of those designer gowns she used to wear, you know. Also, I had to sit through some of those, syrupy, sickening, drippy, satsangs she used to give at programs. I can still hear in my brain the way she used to say 'lotus feet.' Yucko. She is fair game for that alone. But she might think for herself sometimes, too. For example, Still Crazy said that at one point Marolyn was getting disgusted with all the ridiculous opulence BM was so into, especially all the luxury cars, and got herself a pickup truck to run errands. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 19:18:20 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: My comments Message: Also, what the hell did Dr. John Horton do to piss of BM so bad? Any idea? Surely the premie kingdom is loaded with rumors on this one! I actually liked John Horton, although I always got the impression he really wanted to be a guru himself, and would have been, except BM got to it first. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 03:20:49 (EST)
From: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: JW Subject: My comments Message: Some of my thoughts on this letter and why it's up here . . . I don't feel the letter's all that damaging to M. or his mission and doesn't really say much other than Marolyn's confused personal ramblings. The woman is obviously seriously ill, and on medication and somewhat confused. It's a very illuminating insight into her thought processes which stand out through what sounds like almost a delerious state. What amazes me is that she hasn't changed essentially one iota from what I remember her being like back in the 70s. One would think that after 25 years of living with Maharaji that she might just possibly see through the facade of Perfect Master a little bit, and to me it sounds like she does but is in such severe denial that she can't allow herself to think the unthinkable (that he's NOT the Perfect Master, or even anything close to it), as this would cause her to have a nervous breakdown, as she admits. I find her capitalization of He and Him throughout quite interesting and indicative of the fact that she's more brainwashed than most of the premies. After reading it, I felt profoundly sorry for her, as she is a bigger victim than the premies, in many ways, and has been apparently abandoned by her husband while he globe trots with his mistress (I assume). Several times she hints at problems with her life but does not allow herself to address or even think about them, preferring instead to whitewash it over with 'satsang', which is pretty pathetic. I suppose for her to begin to examine her life in any detail and actually think about what M is and does would be just too difficult, from that high up in the glass tower. But mainly I am confused about what the motive of the supposed 'friend' who received this letter was in wishing it posted. This friend obviously has some pretty serious axe to grind with the Rawat family, and it'd be interesting to know what it is. I don't agree with Still Crazy that Jim was morally remiss in posting it, but feel like the 'friend' is the one who has betrayed Marolyn's trust, when she so specifically asked, not once but twice, that it be kept in confidence. I think it would be a noble and brave thing for this 'friend' to come forward (anonymously, of course) and admit to Marolyn and the people on this forum exactly why he/she had this letter posted, and what are his/her concerns about the integrity of M. and his 'mission' which caused such an action to occur. From someone this close to the 'family' (I will resist the temptation to say 'Holy Family', facetiously), it would go a lot further towards illuminating the house of cards from the inside, than posting this letter ever would. Plus, it might actually HELP Marolyn to SEE more objectively what is actually going on, if someone that close to her could come out and say it clearly. But just anonymously posting the letter without any kind of explanation as to WHY will only serve to make her angry and hostile and bitter towards whoever betrayed her trust. So 'friend', whoever you are . . . why did you do this? What is it about M's organization that you want people to know? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 08:06:54 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Joy Subject: My comments Message: Joy: I agree that there is a big piece of this puzzle that's missing. For instance, though it may not be the case we have no way of knowing for sure whether or not this letter is part of a power play within EV itself. Personal exposé's go on all the time in my neck of the woods, and the results are very often unpredictable. Like you, I don't find anything especially damaging in the letter. Sure it's full of platitudes within a fairly rigid belief system, but I was raised by a woman like this. Within the confines of that system she seems to be reaching out. I am very skeptical that this letter redounds to our advantage. I'm also concerned that kicking a pit bull just because you don't like the breed is necessarily the best way of making the world safe from the animal. To mix metaphors, I would rather boil the frog by gradually raising the water temperature that try to toss the critter in an already simmering pot. Anonymously publishing this letter amounts to a personal attack on a family member, the kind of thing that has the greatest potential to backfire. Apart from the ethics of publishing the letter, I question it's efficacy. That having been said, the deed is done, and as Jim has said this is a cult. I tend to think that unless the gap is filled, unless the person to whom the letter is addressed is willing to tell his/her story (something tells me it's not a 'him') then my inclination would be to just mark it down in my memory banks and go on. There is no smoking gun here, that I can see. In the absence of the testimony of _________, asking people to draw damning conclusions about the state of mind of the writer, and then connecting that to some damning indictment of the husband, is extraordinarily optimistic about the interest level and the deductive capacities of readers. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 08:31:37 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: My comments Message: Scott, I don't know about you but I want something from Maharaji. I'm not sure what exactly -- an apology, some candour. I don't want money, that's a joke (although it wouldn't be if there weren't so many of us). And of course I want to see his travelling snake oil show stopped or at least slowed down. Of course I realize I might never get any of that. So what do you do? I have to be frank, one of the main reasons I wanted to post this letter was just to piss him off. I love the idea of Maharaji knowing that, in the end, he can't trust anybody. It's a drag when you can't track down the guy who ripped off your family for millions but it is some consolation to know that he's always looking over his shoulder. So what happens? Marolyn is going to contact Recipient (friend? ex-friend? angry friend? tough-love friend?) or she won't. If she does, she'll have one question: how could you? Can Marolyn even allow herself to ask that? I'm not so sure, given her fear of 'problems' and 'distractions'. Can she handle a little honest discussion with Recipient? Who knows? So if Marolyn doesn't call her, what's that mean? That life's too tricky and she can't afford to communicate with anyone ever again for fear that they'll blab about it all over the internet? Look, I don't envy Marolyn or any of Prempal's family in the circumstances. It looks like a real pickle. Well, sorry, fellas. Call me petty, yes I know, but I derive some real pleasure knowing that, in this small way if no other, our little site has some impact on Prempal. Don't forget, Prempal has had nothing but typically imperious scorn for all of us and has virtually laughed us off in his few public allusions to the net which, I understand, he's called a 'waste of time'. So now it's a waste of time that he's got to think about every time he chews someone out, grabs for whatever or finds a new bed of gullible human beings to mine, a new vein of trust to tap. He thought he could stonewall the whole world, particularly those who gave to him immeasurably. Well, maybe he can, but shit leaks out. True, in this case it's not that significant but it's something nonetheless. I like it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 09:32:50 (EST)
From: Bruce Email: None To: Jim Heller Subject: Pathetic Message: Why try to excuse yourself out of this one? Your actions were contemptible before. Now you have soiled your nappy so much that even some of the more decent folk here don't want to change it for you this time. So you expect an apology do you Mr Heller?! You've certainly blown any chance of that now, haven't you!. It won't be long before you don't have any credibility left with anyone, except maybe a few of the more brainwashed members of your personality cult. It won't be long now before some of these people start demanding an apology from you for wasting their time and money. Bruce Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 14:39:50 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Bruce Subject: Pathetic Message: Bruce: It won't be long before you don't have any credibility left with anyone, except maybe a few of the more brainwashed members of your personality cult.... It won't be long now before some of these people start demanding an apology from you for wasting their time and money. Your confidence that Jim has no credibility here, or that he owes us an apology, is misplaced. It is not as though we are taken completely by surprise. Many of us knew about this letter, and we've had a rather lengthy discussion about what to do. Jim was not even part of the decision-making group, although he got a chance to state his case. I am in favor of posting the letter as part of a journeys entry from the recipient. I still think that's the best venue. However, I don't have a fundamental objection to Jim posting it here, as a sort of 'agent' for the recipient. My objection has to do with the efficacy. It's hard to tell what effect a personal revelation like this will have on people. If I wanted to go after Mary Baker Eddy I might post some of the inane letters issuing from CS 'practitioners' to their 'patients,' but I don't really think those letters would make much difference. This letter will not 'officially' be made part of this site, so it will appear in this thread for awhile and then be consigned to the archives (unless the recipient decides to write that Journeys entry, after all). So rant and rave, but this is not a Jim cult, and we're not contemplating throwing him out of the group. If anything the group is becoming more democratic and more cohesive. This may be difficult for you to understand, I'm sure. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 01:47:35 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Scott T. Subject: Pathetic Message: Scott wrote: 'My objection has to do with the efficacy. It's hard to tell what effect a personal revelation like this will have on people.' I must be missing something. I cannot find any personal revelation in Marolyn's letter. It's just the sort of thing she'd write, typical of her. It didn't open up my eyes to anything new. The only way it could have been revelationary would be if the 'friend' had given a reason for her anger. I don't think that the letter will do any damage to Maharaji or Marolyn and if it was done out of revenge then it's a pretty weak assult on the Rawat household. BB has written far more damaging posts. Where are you Bill, by the way? Are you doing your Mother Theresa bit or have you suddenly seen the light and become premiefied again? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 08:34:53 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Pathetic Message: David: I agree that it is definitely not a 'personal revelation' in the sense of a 'journeys' article. I does reveal something about the person, in the sense that, for instance, she did not (or was not allowed to) talk with her family after the operation (during recuperation). I had a friend who had a brain aneurism at the age of 29, and I was able to talk to her on the phone in her hospital room, even before she went home. She was a little foggy on eactly who I was, but I could tell her I loved her and was glad she was alive, etc. I agree that there were not surprises in the letter, and like you I don't think it hurts the Rawats very much, if at all. Still, it is stuff that they would have preferred not be in the public domain, and that's what I meant by 'personal revelation.' Perhaps a bad choice of words, but more likely it was a typo (heh). Incidentally, my friend experienced some very peculiar 'deja vu' kinds of things after her recovery. For instance, she always knew the punchline to a joke before you got to it, because she had heard it about 6 times before. Very strange. She said life was extremely boring, like that Ground Hog Day movie with Bill Murray. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 14:15:31 (EST)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Jim Subject: My comments Message: I do not support this kind of petty vengefulness. I left M because he was doing hurtful things to people against their wills. I do not approve of anyone doing hurtful things to anyone against their wills, whether they derive personal pleasure from it or not. -Still Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 09:41:45 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Joy, Scott, and all Subject: the committee and the letter Message: First, I want to say that I agree with almost all of Joy's thoughts and feelings about the letter (although I don't think I could express them as eloquently as Joy did - good post!). I also want to talk a little bit about the history of the letter, and how it ended up on the forum. Some of you may recall that Brian asked me to form a committee of people to deal with ethical and practical issues on the forum and site. I did, and we now have a committee of seven people, including me, who considers issues like that when asked (members may 'out' themselves if they choose to!). Directly after that, a copy of the letter was given to me, Brian, and Jim, by a representative of the woman who received the letter, with the request that it be made a part of the ex-premie site. Brian asked the committee (which doesn't include Brian or Jim) to consider the question of whether the letter should be put on the site or not. Everyone on the committee was sent a copy of the letter. We unanimously agreed that the letter should NOT be posted on the site. Reasons for this varied but included lots of what people have already said on here: Marolyn's request to keep the letter private, its relevancy to the site, concern for Marolyn's well-being, lack of context for the letter, and more. Incidentally, the committee was given more of the circumstances surrounding the letter than Jim has described above. Some of us felt that the recipient of the letter should be able to tell her story if she wanted to, so we recommended that she incorporate parts of the letter into a 'Journeys' entry that would give the context and circumstances. 'Journeys' entries by ex-premies are generally not edited or censorted. Failing this she, or her representative, could post it on the forum, where ex-premies are generally allowed to say anything they want (with a few exceptions). We again recommended that she write a little more about the circumstances surrounding the letter to make it more meaningful, and to make its publication seem less like an act of revenge. I'm writing all this to let everyone know some of what went on behind the scenes here, and also I hope to let Still Crazy, whose opinion I respect, why it was allowed to be remain on the Forum. Katie P.S. To committee members - I hope I've described the process we went through about the letter accurately - if not please correct me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 10:14:25 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Katie Subject: Katie: please explain! Message: Katie, you write: 'We unanimously agreed that the letter should NOT be posted on the site.' So, why and how was it posted? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 11:17:11 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: John Subject: Katie: please explain! Message: John, Butting in here. We agreed unanimously not to give it its own page on the site, as this was the original idea that was presented to us. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 12:26:03 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: VP Subject: I still need clarification Message: VP You can butt in all you want, but Katie wrote: 'We unanimously agreed that the letter should NOT be posted on the site' Didn't the letter just get posted, permamently? I guess I am wondering, if you unanimously voted NOT to give this letter a separate page, then what was the vote on whether or not to post it in the forum? Since, imo, it's not that different of an issue. In other words, the reasons to vote no on the first question of whether to give it its own page, I would think would also apply to the 2nd question. Or am I being really stupid? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 14:15:52 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: John Subject: I still need clarification Message: Hi John - No it's not a stupid question, and it should be clarified. I shouldn't have used the word 'post' - it's confusing. We were making a distinction between the official 'Ex-Premie.org' site, and the forum. Brian tries to not to contradict the views and opinions of the majority of ex-premies on the 'official' site. People are allowed to express personal opinions on the Forum and in their Journeys entries. The committee decided unanimously NOT to make the letter part of the official site per se, but allowed the option that the recipient could post the letter on the forum or as a Journeys entry. Here's an example - suppose you wanted to print a personal letter that your community coordinator in Miami sent you telling why he wouldn't pay for your dental work. Or if you wanted to write paragraphs of denunciation of him. We wouldn't stop you from putting this on the forum or in a Journeys entry as long as you didn't make violent threats, but we probably wouldn't want it as an official part of the site. I hope I've explained it a bit better than the first time - if not let me know. Gotta go, but I'll be around later. Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 14:42:49 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Katie Subject: I still need clarification Message: Katie, just to be clear. Is it true that the committee did NOT authorize Jim to post the letter, but that was a decision he made on his own? If so, that means the committee decided NOT to put the letter on the website, but it didn't forbid any individual from doing so, whether that individual was the original recipient of the letter or not. Correct? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 14:49:22 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: JW Subject: I still need clarification Message: That's right, Joe. We told the 'middle-man' for the letter's recipient (she's not on-line) that we did not want to put the letter on the official portion of the web site itself, but that the recipient or someone acting in her behalf could publish it as a forum or Journeys entry if she wanted to see it on the site. the committee did not authorize Jim to post the letter, but he was not unauthorized either - that's between him and the letter's recipient. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 17:25:28 (EST)
From: Middle man Email: None To: Katie Subject: Let's put it another way Message: The letter's recipient was aware of this web-site existence, even though she's not on-line. She wanted that letter to be shown to other exes: remember we're on an ex-premie forum, we exchange feelings about our past involvement, and discuss difficult and painful issues here? Some people have obviously been VERY hurt. That letter was handwritten, and I couldn't post it as BMP files. it had to be transcribed. Then I was not sure about what to do with it, that's why it's been brought to the committee. What's been done is exactly what the recipient wanted to be done. Now listen: This Forum is hopefully going to stay, whether some people like it or not, there is no harm being done here. This is a place where people who've been hurt in this CULT express their feelings, and it's been very useful for some of them obviously (it's been for me). Nobody is forced to read those posts. We might read things we have no idea of in a very near future, as more and more people will see that there is nothing to fear from BM and his minions. They will understand that it's such a relief to express all their grievance that god only knows what will be the next issues brought in the open. This is only a start I guess .... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 22:24:22 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: I still need clarification Message: Katie, Can you imagine a committee trying to control Jim or anyone else? I have tears from laughter... VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 22:53:07 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: VP Subject: I still need clarification Message: VP, please! Give me a break! Trying to control Jim by committee? If I was drinking a cream soda (see Jim's earlier post about his so-called affair with David Smith), I'd be inhaling it now, too! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 14:52:48 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: JW Subject: I still need clarification Message: Katie, just to be clear. Is it true that the committee did NOT authorize Jim to post the letter, but that was a decision he made on his own? If so, that means the committee decided NOT to put the letter on the website, but it didn't forbid any individual from doing so, whether that individual was the original recipient of the letter or not. Correct? I think that is an accurate rendition of the committee's decision. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 15:17:55 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: I still need clarification Message: Thanks Scott! Much more succinct and clear than my answer (must be all that training in public policy.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 18:48:37 (EST)
From: committee person Email: None To: everyone Subject: I still need clarification Message: I was (am) on the committee. I'm not usually anonymous, but I really don't want to get into further discussions here, or fall out with anybody. I would like to add a couple of thoughts to Katie, Scott's and middle man's replies. It probably still looks odd to John and others that the committee decided unanimously not to publish the letter, yet seemed to 'ok', or even recommend, its admission as a Journeys entry or forum post. For myself, and maybe some of the others, the question of whether to allow it onto the forum was not so much whether we wanted it posting, but more of a question of both practical issues and censorship. The forum has no editor. To prevent any such controversial materials being being posted here, somebody would need to be permanently on guard, editing content as it arrives. That is a practical impossibility, unless we had a completely different kind of forum. Then there is the question of (Petrou's beloved) 'freedom of speech'. I for one am against a censored forum, and though I wasn't altogether comfortable with seeing the letter posted here, and thought it would be counter-productive in that sympathy for Marolyn would override the telling revelations - regarding BM's secretiveness and control-freak tendecies, or Marolyn's apparent subjugation and insecurity - contained in the letter, I don't see how you can have censorship on a forum that is supposedly devoted to 'anything and everything' about M. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 14:23:55 (EST)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Joy Subject: My comments Message: I agree that __________ is mostly to blame here, and that Jim was just an accomplice to betrayal. I guess what really gets to me the most is that Marolyn was doing something that I most respect in other human beings. She didn't have to answer the letter, but she did. She was reaching out, trying to offer some comfort and support to another. She may not be the brightest person, and maybe her thought processes are a little confused (she was recovering from a near-fatal stroke, for gods' sake), but she was attempting, out of love and caring for another individual, to perhaps lighten the burden a little, to offer that person some inspiration and encouragement, which I believe are the only beneficial things we can give to each other. And what was _______________'s response? To broadcast it on the Internet, for the entire world to analyze and ridicule. And I'm supposed to respect this somehow? You go out of your way to help me and I penalize you for it? You reach out your hand in friendship to me and I slap it as hard as I can with a metal rod? I come to your door begging food and you bring me a bowl of soup, and I throw it in your face and burn you with it? You see I'm weary to the point of stumbling, you put your arm around my waist in support, and I use the position to steal your wallet? Shocked and amazed, Still Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 15:17:25 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: Joy Subject: My comments Message: I felt outraged and sick reading that letter.At first I was thinking:'how on earth can jim justify posting this?' but it became clear that he was simply an innocent feeling accomplice to Marolyn's 'friend'.Jim's conscience is his alone and he's dealing with it. This friend is no friend.Obviously 'friend' has a serious personal problem with the Rawat couple.What it is I don't know;but it must be a very serious problem in order for friend to stoop to the level of(via 'friend's accomplice) posting that letter. Reading that letter(which I should not have done as soon as I could see how incredibly personal it was,but hey;I'm human)made me feel real bad.It was so very,very,very,personal and heartfelt(whether or not you found the contents confused...etc,is entirely irrelevant)that I felt dirty,almost like a peeping tom reading it.That letter is nobody's business.I feel very badly for Marolyn right now,and have lost most remaining respect for jim's tactics. In my opinion;you have definately crossed a sacred line here my friend,and you have cheapened the good that this web site actually can and does lead to. Shame! p.s.-fwiw,the letter actually proved for me that deluded or not,this whole trip is very real/sincere for Marolyn and Maharaji.It exploded any 'Jim and Tammy Faye Baker' we're only in it for the money suspicions I may have had. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 15:50:02 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: bftb Subject: to bftb Message: Hey Bftb, I'm wondering if you read the same letter I did. You say it's so very,very,very,personal and heartfelt. What in the world are you talking about? This letter is boilerplate Marolyn lovegoo satsang. Besides some 'chit chat' about John Horton and a report on her recuperation, it's just sublime premie mindfuck souffle. You want personal? Send me all your correspondence for the last twenty years and I'll help you find the personal stuff. It won't look like this. As for Marolyn's convalescence -- big deal. This is not a daytime cult, friend; this is the give-up-your-world-and-look-for-Maharaji-in-death cult. He's supposedly the Lord; what's so dainty about his wife's recovery? What you don't like is the fact that somehow things have gotten to this point. If that's the case, I'm in complete agreement. In normal circumstances, who'd want to post someone's personal mail? Not me. Indeed, in normal circusmtances, would there even be such a place to post it as this site? Of course not. We got fucked over, man. Don't you get that? I think if this site becomes nothing but a clearing house for Maharaji's leaked private life it might fulfill its best potential (besides being a source of support and discovery for those once affected). Someday, hopefully sooner rather than later, this cult is going to really feel the drag of public dissent. Some part of that will be Maharaji's knowledge that he can't trust anyone..... That to me is lovely. 'Privacy' in this situation is a bizarre consideration. And before you feel so sorry for rich Mrs. Rawat, the same woman who called you one of the 'biggest assholes alive' by the way, read her letter again. You wonder why her friend is so pissed off. Consider the fact that her friend is really trying to find some answers to some questions she obviously thinks are important. I understand that, like so many premies that close for that long to the Rawats, her entire life revolved around them. So she gets stonewalled by Maharaji and then turns to her good, old friend Marolyn. But what does Marolyn have to offer? Nothing but her own egocentric musings and complete disregard for her friend's confusion. I, too, would like to hear directly from the firend why she wanted to post this but I'm assuming at this point that she realized that, when push comes to shove, despite her syrupy bullshit talk, Marolyn doesn't give a shit about this budding 'problem maker'. Can't you see Marolyn's veiled threat to her friend that if she doesn't stifle her own questions for once and for all Marolyn might not have anything to do with her? I do. It's written between every line of the letter. My guess is that that is what pissed the friend off. It sure would have me. You're right, it would take real anger on friend's part to do this. Well why don't you keep an open mind as to what's what? Maybe the anger's justified. My guess is that it is. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 16:21:19 (EST)
From: Paul Email: None To: Jim Subject: to bftb Message: I'm with you. Someone who becomes 'Durga Ji,' 'housemother' to all, and stands on stage telling all the premies how they should worship her perfect master husband, doesn't command the same level of privacy as mere mortals. We can still feel compassion for her situation, physical and psychological. I remember when she was just a run-of-the-mill ashram premie in LA. To be chosen by the lord of the universe to be His consort is pretty heady stuff. Her chance of ever breaking free is probably nil. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 13:34:45 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: bftb Subject: My comments:Your PS Message: I also used to think that if people are very sincere and believe in what they are doing, that it somehow excludes them (me) from the consequences of their actions. Just because they believe they are right, doesn't make it so! People, me included have done many harmful and hurtful things to others in the name of Love. Everyone must find their personal truth and I believe that 'God' within me has guided me to reflect and reason about my beliefs and to express them openly. Secrecy is a tool of the status quo. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 21:40:35 (EST)
From: Jack Email: None To: Jim Subject: To what end will you go... Message: Jim It was wrong of you to post this letter. Having watched since you started your crusade, I'm amazed to see your values crumbling before my eyes. I see your win-at-any-price frenzy pushing you to cross lines of fairness and respect, that can only serve to erode your character. Posting Marolyn's letter is a blatant demonstration of how low you are willing to sink. Jim, if you lose your respect for human dignity you are bound to self-destruct. Two wrongs do not make a right, and what you did was really sleazy. Ah well, it's your life. Jack Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 22:15:36 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jack Subject: Price of doing business Message: Jack, This is the problem when you have a cult. Sometimes, just sometimes, your slaves don't do what you want them to. In this case, one of Margie's long-time servants didn't accept that her genuine questions of him met such deaf ears. And then that her old 'friend' Marolyn just can't deal with the world. Tell me, Jack, where's Margie's compromise? Where's his accountability? This is just a little warning to him that things won't necessarily be so private form now on. But who's fault is that, Jack? Stand back, get a touch objective (like maybe imagine this was happening in some other monolithic power structure) and think about it. I never heard you say that Margie or any of his people owed any explanation for anything to anyone. It ain't a one-way street, Jack. By the way, did you check out Satpal's page? What do you think? Who's the biggest revisionist in your mind: Satpal, who claims he was made guru right after dad's death and denies that his two youngest brothers even exist, or Margie, who claims that he never called himself the saviour of mankind and Supreme Lord in Human Form? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 15:58:05 (EST)
From: Jack Email: None To: Jim Subject: The price of losing respect Message: Jim Posting Marolyn's letter is very sleazy. Whatever M has done that you feel is unjust, IF it's truely unjust he'll pay for it - nobody gets away with anything in the grand scheme of things. But if in your zeal to met out justice you become unjust, I guarantee you will pay for it like anyone else... and I suspect you already are. The ends do not justify the means if in the process you abandon respect for other human beings. Can you hear that Jim? And another thing, by publishing the letter you have just sabatoged the possibility of getting someone to respond in the future. Here you are whining and complaining that nobody answers premies' letters, and then when somebody does, i.e., Marolyn, you plaster it across the internet even though she expressly asked that it be kept private. You have just reduced the likelihood of ever having another letter from Marolyn to even consider, not to mention anyone who could truly have benefited from her help. 'Feel you anger Luke... feel the power of the dar Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 16:07:52 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jack Subject: The Force cut you off? Message: Jack, You say Maharaji will pay for whatever because no one gets away with anything. How Hindu. I gues we should open the jails and close down the courts, huh? Sorry, Jack I don't buy it. As Maharaji himself says, death is for the dead. There's no consolation in the hereafter that I'm aware of. As for his conscience now.... ha ha ha (choke) ha ha. As for respect for other human beings, Jack, I don't respect Maharaji. What in the world are you talking about. And I don't respect his wife either -- imagine that, breeding a daughter to sing devotional songs to her father like some temple virgin. Sorry fella, respect is assumed, earned or lost. I assume it for most people, others earn respect plus, others lose their basic allotment. Maharaji's running a major deficit. As for getting someone to respond, who knows? Maybe Maharaji will finally decide to deal with us hosers, maybe he won't. You sure never asked him to on our behalf, did you? No, I didn't think so. You're just a grunt but even the people close to him won't take it upon themselves to do that. At least this way he can feel the impact of the page he tries to ignore. Who gives a shit if Marolyn asked for her letter to be private? Again, 'privacy' takes on an entirely different meaning in this whole cult business. I'm glad Marolyn will think twice before even writing another letter to someone. Can't you see that? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 16:24:55 (EST)
From: Jack Email: None To: Jim Subject: The Force cut you off? Message: You are bankrupt Jim. Get a life while you still have a chance. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 16:27:43 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jack Subject: The Force cut you off? Message: Get a life while you still have a chance. Another standard, cliched, meaningless throw-away line. Why bother? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 16:11:08 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jack Subject: The price of losing respect Message: You have just reduced the likelihood of ever having another letter from Marolyn to even consider, not to mention anyone who could truly have benefited from her help. Benefited from her help? Like we need to hear 'satsang' from her? I truly don't understand this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 01:42:34 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jack Subject: To what end will you go... Message: Jack, are you obsessed with Jim Heller? It seems you have been studying carefully while his 'values crumble' with great for quite some time. Maybe you could write a thesis, character study, or something on Jim now that you have been studying him for so long. Why do I get the impression that you read this forum religiously until you think Jim does something that will allow you to lambast him from some elevated moral position? I think the last time was when Jim said he thought M caused someone to commit suicide and said M 'killed' that person. You were REALLY morally outraged about that! Now, it's an accusation that Jim is 'losing his respect for human dignity' because he posted this letter. I'm sure everyone is instructed by your moral indignation. Pity you don't apply the same to your guru. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 14:28:01 (EST)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Jack Subject: To what end will you go... Message: Jack, you forgot 'the ends justify the means.' -Still Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 09:16:35 (EST)
From: Bo Email: None To: Jim Subject: My comments Message: Mr Jim! Have they let you out from a mental hospital or something? In that case I think you should take the first train back!!!!! I have nothing to do do with 'the guru', but I am interested in humanitary questions, and here I am surfing on the net, trying to find something of interest, so I stumbled across this page. I couldn´t believe my eyes when I stared to read this letter, which is obviously very private and meant for one person only. And here you are - obviously a very confused person, with a heart of stone - just exposing somebody´s personal, private words for the whole world to read. What are you? Are you on drugs or something? This is absolutely one of the lowest things I have come across in my life! Please go see a doctor. And please do not answer this message. P.S. What sick page is this anyway? Do the world a favour and take it away. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 09:20:51 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Bo Subject: I thought you were on Hale-Bop Message: Hey Bo, Just surfing the net, are we? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 20:28:57 (EST)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Jim Subject: Marolyn's letter (Part 2) Message: Jim, I was quite horrified and revolted to see you post this private letter. Whoever you got it from has betrayed trust and confidence, and you are an accomplice to this. What I'm writing to you, _________, is personal - it is for you only. I hope you understand. Obviously neither s/he nor you did. May I please request that what I have shared is with you is for you alone? Thank you. And then you have the nerve to say: P.S. Marolyn's old friend wanted this posted on her behalf. I'm not sure if Marolyn did. Really, Jim? You're not sure? The name of the person who received the letter was replaced by ___________. Oh, I get it. _______________ gets to retain their privacy. Too bad Marolyn doesn't deserve the same treatment. I am ashamed to be part of a Forum in which the most common kind of human decency is so flagrantly disregarded. How could you expect me or anyone else in the fragile state of having their belief system crumble to trust you, or to bare our souls in an environment where basic human respect has so little value? Disgustedly, Still Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 20:43:04 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Still Crazy Subject: Marolyn's letter (Part 2) Message: Still, I don't know why the person who received the letter didn't want to give his or her name, but nevertheless wanted the letter posted, but it's clear he or she won't be anonymous to Marolyn, who sent her the letter. That might be the intent here. Jim, is there any possibility that the person who received the letter might post, even anonymously, so that he or she can explain the motives for wanting the letter made public, and put the letter in context? You gave some context about the question that was raised, but it would be good to hear the motives as well. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 20:51:22 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: Marolyn's letter (Part 2) Message: I'll have to ask yet another middle man, the one I got the letter from. Hey, Mr. Middle Man, want to email me on this? I agree. It would have been much better and cleaner to have 'friend' post the letter directly. But I trust my source and, for that matter, have a copy of the actual handwritten letter. Hopefully the friend WILL post her explanation of how and why she feel sso disillusioned with her old friend that she'd Linda Tripp her like this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 00:04:24 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: Middle Man Message: Jim, Ask the middle man if he/she could get the recipient of this letter to write a long detailed Journey entry. Now THAT would really be something to read, wouldn't it? Talk about shedding light on this cult. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 16:43:19 (EST)
From: Middle Man Email: None To: VP Subject: Middle Man: request received Message: OK, let me give you some more details (I already gave them to you Jim): The letter's recipient is VERY pissed with BM and Marolyn. They've been very close for years, and marolyn's health problems was NO excuse for them not to answer her requests. That's the main point. The business with John H. is also a very serious case of VERY BAD mistreatment, to say the least. Now, BM and his spouse know her very well, as she's been their unpaid employee for YEARS, she'd dedicate years of her life at their service, and that's how they've cared for her. That's what she wants to be known. Obviously quite some premies also know who she is, they might think she's 'in her mind', some will understand why she's pissed and why she left, and hopefully think a bit more about their own involvement in this ... whatever you like to call it. She doesn't have any Internet access, and she can't read all these comments about her letter, I'll try to make a file out of them, print it, and send it to her. She might write her journey ..... But there is one thing she does not want: she has a family, they've already been harmed enough with all this BS, and she does not want to have her name and her children's mentionned here, that's why some words of the letter have been skipped. Is this enough ? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 22:03:53 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Middle Man Subject: Middle Man: request received Message: Middle Man: As I said, I don't really get much out of the letter. It just doesn't speak to me without the words of the recipient. So am very anxious to read her journey. The problem is, I doubt if she'll remain anonymous for long. Still, it might be a good idea to use an pseudonym. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 22:18:33 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Middle Man Subject: Middle Man: request received Message: Thanks for that response. I guess the point that I am trying to make is that maybe this person could give a lot more insight into this cult than this letter does. I know that a person has to be ready to come forward about M and she may not be. She could do it anonymously, though she wouldn't be anon to certain people in the inner circle if she posted some private stories. I am anon because of my family, too, so I understand her position. This cult will never be brought down without brave people who are willing to come forward with the truth. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 02:05:26 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: VP Subject: Middle Man: request received Message: I don't think the cult will ever be 'brought down'. Rather I think that it will just lose its popularity in the West to a greater and greater degree and Maharaji will concentrate his efforts back in the East where he knows he can have an influence. We have in Marolyn the most die hard of premies. She knows M is not the Lord and she knows about all his habits etc and yet she still sticks with him. There must be other similar premies in the West who will keep a semblence of a presence of the cult. Perhaps in the end they will all go and live on some private land in some remote spot and live out the rest of their days in secrecy and obscurity. As far as I know, Maharaji hasn't done anything obviously illegal that would prevent him operating somewhere in the world. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 09:08:53 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Sir David Subject: EV's future appeal Message: David: The times are not ripe for a mass religious movement in the US. The heyday of DLM, in the mid-seventies, was toward the tail-end of what Samuel Huntington calls a period of 'creedal passion.' These occur in sixty-year cycles, and we are now in the most 'buttoned down' part of the cycle. Maharaji will be in his seventies when the opportunity arises again, and the mission will probably be passing to his children or another successor. By that time they may have become a lot more sophisticated about the message, and the ability to provide an appealing program. I sure don't think this is over, but taking MJ to task now might well cripple the appeal in about 30 years. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 22:27:22 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Scott T./David Subject: EV's future appeal Message: I like that term, 'cripple the appeal'. Mind if I adopt that in place of 'bring it down'? The people who came forward to create this forum helped me. Everytime a person who has inside info comes forward, this has the potential to help someone. Some folks are beyond help or don't want it-their devotion for Maharaji is so great they don't care what he does wrong. True enough. But there are some people who do want answers and want to seek the truth at whatever cost to their current world view. (Look at us!) For those, it is good to have people behind the scenes (like the recipient of this letter) give a more detailed story of the BAD things Rawat has done to people. That's what I meant. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 at 18:22:01 (EST)
From: Mr Ex Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Middle Man: request received Message: >As far as I know, Maharaji hasn't done anything obviously >illegal that would prevent him operating somewhere in the world. My opinion is that he did a lot of illegal stuff, using EV and some premies hold private companies funnelling $ millions for his private use. It is EXTREMELY likely that the system is still at work, using some sophisticated means. The question is: does IRS want (and can) investigate ? EV is now an international organization, and money is going all over the place, not that easy to trace. And all these unpaid workers in the various residences? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 at 21:02:18 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Mr Ex Subject: Middle Man: request received Message: That's the trouble isn't it, nothing is obviously illegal. Should there ever be any chance of any litigation then I would be happy to make a financial contibution towards it. Please bear that in mind. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 20:44:38 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Still Crazy Subject: Marolyn's letter (Part 2) Message: Well, Still, I'm sorry you feel this way. Others may too. But I've already explained my view -- this is a CULT. I was kidding about Marolyn's wishes. Of course she wouldn't want us reading this letter let alone posting it for anyone else to see. Her view is that premies are to give and Maharaji receive, whether that be trust, money, time, what have you. Anything that might possibly put a human face on Maharaji threatens that arrangement. Every fraud artist has 'privacy' concerns, do you respect those? I sure don't, not when they're only asserted in order to protect a false image. Really, beside the John Horton gossip, what in the world is there that compromises Marolyn besides her own pathetic philosophy? Look, Still, I was told by my cult leader to worship her as Durga Ji, goddess of love. That bloom faded within a couple of years but I was still expected to admire, if not worship, her as a paradigm of premieship. Yet she was always beyond me. And here, as you can see, she thinks it's best that things stay that way. Well I sure don't. So what ABOUT Maharaji's privacy interests? Do you respect those? Tell me about it. I'm all ears. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 14:33:06 (EST)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Jim Subject: Marolyn's letter (Part 2) Message: Why don't you hide a microphone in M's bedroom, tape him and Marolyn having sex, make it into a RealAudio, and post it to the site? -Still Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 15:58:02 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Still Crazy Subject: Good idea, Still! Message: Still, I think that's a fantastic idea! You might not have had the pleasure but I gave up sex for eight years on my guru's orders; it would have been longer if I hadn't met David Smith and Jack's challenge and moved out of the ashram. I think it would be very sobering for anyone who ever fell for Maharaji as something greater than human to hear his actual cry of love. Oh sorry, is that undignified? Well excuse me! I know, why don't I write Maharaji a letter. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 16:06:42 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Good idea, Still! Message: ... but I gave up sex for eight years on my guru's orders; it would have been longer if I hadn't met David Smith and Jack's challenge and moved out of the ashram. So, Jim, this is something you never mentioned before. Are you saying you had sex with David Smith and because of it Jack challenged you to move out ot he ashram? Was he worth the eight-year wait? Sorry, just couldn't resist. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 16:10:01 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: Cream soda up my nose! Message: Too funny! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 16:13:22 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Cream soda up my nose! Message: I know, cheap shot. But this thread was getting a little heavy and I think we all need to lighten up. I think it would have been about the same period when everyone was claiming to have had sex with Margaret Trudeau! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 16:41:35 (EST)
From: Pierre Eliott Email: None To: JW Subject: Cream soda up my nose! Message: Claiming? Sadly;most of those folks did what they claimed with the beloved Maggie. :-) However,she's all grown up now thank-you very much.Kids'll be kids I guess. 'Hey Keef man,she's NOT a groupie!' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 11:26:08 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Pierre Eliott Subject: to Pierre Elliot--off topic Message: Pierre: Claiming? Sadly;most of those folks did what they claimed with the beloved Maggie. :-) However,she's all grown up now thank-you very much.Kids'll be kids I guess. This has nothing to do with Maggie, but is part of my current research into US/Canada attitudes and politics. Is it true, as Martin Lipset holds, that you are an ideological socialist who accepted the leadership of the Liberals as a result of their need for a federalist to counter the influence of the Parti Quebecois (whose petition for membership in the Socialist International was vetoed by the Anglophone NDP)? -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 20:55:51 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Still Crazy Subject: Privacy Message: Jim, I was quite horrified and revolted to see you post this private letter. Whoever you got it from has betrayed trust and confidence, and you are an accomplice to this. Jim (and other accomplices) paid for the stationary it was written on. They paid for the postage. And they paid for Marolyn's surgery. They were told that the money would go elsewhere, but it went into Maharaji's pockets. Marolyn has had a pretty comfy life surrounded by what it has brought her. Do you feel horrified and revolted by that? Oh, I get it. _______ gets to retain their privacy. Too bad Marolyn doesn't deserve the same treatment. Yes. Still Crazy gets to keep his/her anonymity/privacy on this forum. Maharaji doesn't. Marolyn doesn't. I know - it isn't fair. I am ashamed to be part of a Forum in which the most common kind of human decency is so flagrantly disregarded. How could you expect me or anyone else in the fragile state of having their belief system crumble to trust you, or to bare our souls in an environment where basic human respect has so little value? Marolyn's state of mind may be fragile, but her belief system is certainly NOT crumbling. She responds from within the standard premie party line. Do you see doubt creeping into her speach patterns? Do you even come close to detecting any actual addressing of the questions that caused the person to write to her in the first place after the stonewalling received from Maharaji? She is more than willing to blather on about her loving Master who's off working the crowd, but has left her videos to watch in his absence. How very loving and supportive. The environment where basic human respect has so little value is at the lotus feet of her doting husband - and in the household bought and paid for by Jim and his accomplices. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 21:41:26 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Marolyn's Letter Message: I was thinking 'how pathetic, how sad' for this woman while reading this letter and at the same time (in a parallel universe, so to speak) hey, she's one of the main beneficiaries of this scam and has a vested interest in keeping it going. She's been living with the BM, she must know the truth and now she chooses to obfuscate. I for one, while at first feeling sorrow for her, and still maintaining my sympathy for her physical problems, am glad the letter was made public. I hope it helps premies see the light (in a non-pareil universe so to speak). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 21:55:15 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Gerry Subject: Marolyn's Letter Message: She's been living with the BM, she must know the truth and now she chooses to obfuscate. Before reading the letter I had always thought that she must see through the scam - perhaps have a few flings with a tennis instructor on the side. Your basic rich-girl syndrome. But after reading it, I was stunned at the fantasy world that she seems to drift through. Her account of daily crying reminded me of something that Bob Mishler said to me on the phone after he left. It had to do with her crying all the time. I didn't have a context at that time to place it in, so have forgotten the exact words. But she seems to me to be a person who lives separated from her own self, and in the shadow of someone she is totally in awe of. I can't see her putting her foot down, or having the nerve to act on a desire of her own after reading the letter. That sort of emotional partitioning has got to spill over into tears - or straight-jackets. Over all, I'm pretty disappointed with her complete lack of perception, and view her now as a stereotypical dominated female, cringes and all. What the Old Man does is always right. That's the shame I see in this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 20:17:04 (EST)
From: Jack Email: None To: Brian Subject: Marolyn's Letter Message: Before you go too far with your Marolyn-bashing-to-show-how-stupid-premies-are conjecture, consider this. She has come closer to facing death than probably anyone who reads from this forum. Can you appreciate the life altering epiphany one has from such an experience? Can you appreciate how it must clear away the bullshit, making your priorities simple and closer to your heart? But the funny thing is, even after having such an experience, Marolyn is clearly grateful to her master for the gift of Knowledge. You'd think such a dose of reality would have 'lifted the veil of illusion and liberated the lost soul from the bondage of servitude'. However it seems to have done exactly the opposite. And I've heard of others who express the same gratitude, or, regret that they didn't pay more attention to the gift. If there's anything positive about posting her note, perhaps it's this revelation. Jack Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 13:55:58 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Jack Subject: Close to Death...More real??? Message: I have been close to dying people in hospice work. I believe that getting 'close' to death can indeed make your own priorities more clear and your own beliefs more present, but they are still YOUR OWN. We get to choose while we live, what it is that we believe. I hope our creator is more compassionate to us at our death than to condemn our false beliefs in life. It is while we live that we have a chance to discover truth and love. I don't believe any belief can be RIGHT if it is not for the greater good of all who it touches. I believe that we are the ones who are meant to act out the greatest attributes of GOD to eachother. PS. Jack, were you a director in Portland for a short time? Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 20:17:53 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Carol Subject: Right on, Carol! Message: Hope your Llamas are doing well. You put it very well there. I'm sure you love your Llamas even if they can get a bit difficult at times. I'm sure God feels the same way about us too. Unconditional love is He, it has been said. That means it doesn't matter one iota what the hell we've done or not done or believed or not believed, it's all of no consequence to Him. I get the feeling that we are the only ones who condemn ourselves and each other. Someone said that God does not need to forgive because he never judges. His mood is love, His only language is love and everything is for us, even the seperation from Him, so that we can more fully appreciate the love that He is and that we also are. We may feel wretched or we may feel OK but His love for us never falters and I'm sure one fine day we'll realise just HOW MUCH He loves us with a wild abandon! The seperation is, I'm sure, nothing to get hung up about or chastise ourselves about. There's nothing wrong with it and there's nothing wrong with us. He is well pleased with us. I love my children and if one of them has a doubt or problem I do my level best to show them that I think they're terrific and love them immensly. That's the love of any Father or Mother. So why should God be any different? He's just even more so. Don't forget that He knows your heart completely and understands you completely. What's the destination? An ever closer relationship with the One who is always there. Soon I will post a true revelation that someone had about how much God loves EVERYONE including the people some might think are beyond the pale. Life is certainly not all smooth going and sometimes it can be very hard. But every step we take takes us further, whether we realise it or not, further down the road to ever greater understanding, love and compassion for others and for ourselves. Did you ever see a film of yourself when you were a cute and lovely baby? You'd love that baby and pick it up in your arms and hug it with all the tenderness you possess. That lovely child is still there, worthy of the same love and tenderness. You're still that beautiful child with such a loving smile. She will never be lost or erased and you are still her and always will be. God remembers and He loves. And that's it! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 at 02:30:03 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Right on, Carol! Message: Thankyou David. I believe our perceptions of God and self are similar. It is good to be reminded again of what I know. Glad you are here. The llamas are fine. :) Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 12:14:39 (EST)
From: Jack Email: None To: Carol Subject: Close to Death...More real??? Message: Carol We'll both see when we get there. Watching others go through the process can only give us a glimpse. No, I never lived in P'land. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 16:26:49 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jack Subject: Marolyn's Letter Message: Jack, like Carol, I have also done a lot of hospice work, and otherwise worked with people who are dying. My experience is that people have all sorts of reactions and coping mechanisms when faced with death. Many times people do not question what is going on in their lives or their beliefs, but rather cling more strongly to them. If Marolyn was near death, it would be perfectly normal for her to cling even harder to her husband, as well as what she hopes he is, and wouldn't want to dwell on her doubts that he might be a charlatan, as well as her husband. It would also be quite normal to cling to whatever religious principles one has been following, no matter how inane they might be. It appears from the letter that Marolyn was no longer near death when she wrote it, but was feeling exceedingly fragile and unable to cope with any doubts or controversies. This would be an unlikely time to question what she has been doing for the past 25 years. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 19:38:21 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jack Subject: Not so Jack! Message: No don't agree there Jack, not in the slightest. You don't know how many people have been close to death here. Myself, I've had two heart attacks, the second being a close call. Neither heart attack made me feel anything that you've spoken about. Maharaji just didn't come into it at all. In fact, even God didn't come into it either. Such is the instinct for survival that when you think you're dying you fight with every ounce of will to stay alive. I'm sure it's like that for most people. Now had I actually cardiac arrested then my fight would have been over and then it would be between me, the tunnel and the light and certainly this so called master would be far, far away from such a dimension. Or are you one of these people who believe that the love that lies beyond is only reserved for people who follow the 'master' who tells people to STOP remembering their breath now and clearly has no idea about meditation of any kind. When I was in the ambulance going to the hospital, it was the thought of my two daughters that willed me to try to hang on. That's the real world, that's a real love and a real reason to be thankful I'm still here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 00:34:55 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Still Crazy Subject: To Still Message: Still, I could feel the passion in your post and isn't it great that you can freely disagree with Jim here? That's a lot more than the Guru affords. This site has done a lot of good things, so I wouldn't be too quick to judge the whole thing by one action. I have disagreed with things here before, but overall it has been beneficial to me. I, for one, would not ever attack your bare soul or anyone else's who needs support and seeks it here. Take Care, VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 21:33:54 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jim Subject: A sad story Message: Marolyn wrote: 'If we don't practice, in my view, we are the biggest fools, the biggest idiots on earth. I want to get graphic and say the biggest assholes alive!' Sad that a simple meditation practise could be turned into something so extreme, so out of proportion and so critical of other people, as this. Maharaji has taken something simple and natural and turned it into a horror story. Maharaji, you should have listened more carefully to those wise old Indian Mahatmas. They were the ones who brought the Knowledge to the west, not you. Your reign in the west has almost finished. And yet it is a sad story. How the children of a generation believed that the Lord had come. How a boy followed his father's wishes to spread his Knowledge to the west but completely messed it up. How the guru never even understood the knowledge he was supposedly trying to spread. The circle is nearly complete. The chapter almost ended. Marolyn wrote that knowledge works but she's got it wrong, so disastrously wrong. For it is people that work and people are people and no guru is going to change them. A simple meditation practise blown up out of all proportion. Time to go back to the drawing board and start afresh with a new sheet of paper. Who is going to pick up the pencil and make the first line? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 22:28:23 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The Letter Message: I spent extra effort on this thread. I read and reread her letter. I very carefully read each of your posts before responding. Not my usual impulsive self on the forum Why? Because this deeply affected me. Where to start? My first impression, how can this be?? This woman is sincere in her own perception at least, and how can this be?? How can she be so .. what? brainwashed? Yes, I suppose you could reduce it the *common battered or abused woman syndrome* Not that that is any small matter in itself!! . So i have to ask , is she part of the scam? Not intentionally I don't think. And we have to give her her recovery time. Brain surgery! that's heavy. ( but how many very poor people are face with this in america every day, with no health insurance and no demi god to provide?)!! This letter really frightened one recenly exited ex (me). I can tell you that. It hurts actually because what she says strikes a chord and resounds with all the old tapes and brainwashing I have gotten, and scares me on a very personal, women's rights kind of level as well. There but for the grace of (fill in the blank at your will_ I call it the opportunity for independent thinking ) there go I!!! Should it have been posted here? ABSOLUTELY - Is this a cult awareness forum or isn't it? I can't or don't want to agrue the ethics. My take ( strictly personal) is that posting the letter is an eye opener and a serious statement, not to be taken lightly but totally appropriate. It has helped me see how much M's influence can penetrate a persons thought process and cause a hell of a lot of damage. Thank you Jim for posting this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 22:30:44 (EST)
From: Anon Email: None To: Sir David Subject: A sad story Message: The posting of that letter appears to be calculated to hurt Maharaji's and his wife's feelings, and as such must be a measure of how bitter the recipient of the letter (and Jim) must feel to want to publish it. They obviously feel so angry that they feel the end justifies the means. 'Still Crazy', you obviously don't want to wage war on Maharaji to this degree (that M's family get in the firing-line) Because I consider Marolyn to be basically an 'innocent' like myself, I would be reluctant to attack her personally too. The issue here is very complicated and ties in with this 'mistress' expose thing which seems to be falteringly trying to rear it's head again. The question is, to what extent is it acceptable to broadcast things which, if they are true, can really damage peoples reputations, lives etc? I suppose if one is really so incensed that Maharaji is such a dreadful ogre, one may feel that it is entirely appropriate to use fair means or foul to put a swift end to what one sees as the greater evil...(ie M's work). I have witheld certain names etc. from my posts because I didn't want to cross this line where I would effectively start really hurting others. I have had moments of pretty intense reaction myself, especially when I ruefully pondered some of my time spent in the ashram etc. I have found at length that I am generally more comfortable to express my misgivings within the boundaries of civil discussion without it getting too personal. David Smith was somebody who I felt less reserved about attacking quite venomously! He was pretty inhuman to me personally and I thought deserved a good slagging! However I have to say, from personal experience, I do understand how 'hurt'and 'bitterness' drives some to taking more extreme confrontational steps like this letter thing. I sense that for many of us it is by no means a flippant decision to speak of some of the things we do, on the contrary it can be a heart-wrenching, fearful and difficult thing to question so directly something that was so passionate, sincere and 'important' an affair for so long. It's that old 'scorned lover' syndrome. Still Crazy, I don't think we need to 'trust' Jim (or anyone in this forum) at all, he has his own agenda and is acting accordingly. We are free to mistrust him! He clearly feels sure that M has committed such a great 'human indecency' that hurting the feelings of M's wife and family is an acceptable measure if it helps to tar Maharaji. That's just his viewpoint, not neccessarily one shared by everyone who is undergoing a few doubts about Maharaji. Finally, it seems to me, from her letter, that if Marolyn calling people who criticise Maharji's teachings 'assholes' it is really quite inconsequential and understandable. It doesn't hurt my feelings at all! Quite simply, that adjective is probably pretty much on a par with what I would have chosen some years ago, to describe non-practising premies! At the end of the day I don't personally want to get too much blood on my hands. My resentment has definately abated somewhat over the last year. But I do want to continue to come more to terms with what I have been through and gain more understanding of the reality about Maharaji, his predecessors and what makes them tick. The truth basically. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 23:12:04 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Anon Subject: A sick story Message: These people are public figures. They put themselves in the limelight. They take money, energy, and trust from people indiscriminately and give NOTHING back. They are blood suckers on the most basic level. Psychic Vampires if you will. All blubbering and fuzzy feelings aside, THEY KILL PEOPLE, in a very real sense. And they know it. And it doesn't matter to them as long as their power trip continues. They lie, steal and kill. Let's cut the crap and quit coddling the bastards. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 16:21:03 (EST)
From: Jack Email: None To: Gerry Subject: A sick story Message: Gerry Those are awfully powerful words you are using. Are you sure you know what you're talking about? I mean 100%, no bullshit sure? There are many who feel M has given them more than they could ever repay. You can't rule them out as ALL being mindless morons. For the most part they are some of the finest people I've met. (By the way I've even met Jim and in my opinion they're even finer people than him.) If you condone betrayal as a means of reaching an end, then it's a very short step for you to become just the person you described in your post. Jack Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 16:35:11 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jack Subject: A sick story Message: Yes, I am 100% sure. Where was it I called these poor, deluded souls 'morons'? After all I was one once too, remember? I agree there are many fine people caught up in this. Very intelligent ones, too. That's the scary part. Hope you read my second post. I wrote it after I stopped shaking. As for betrayal, we all know who the Pefect Master of Betrayal is, and it sure as hell ain't Jim. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 21:33:36 (EST)
From: Jack Email: None To: Gerry Subject: A sick story Message: You're involved for at most 1 or 2 years in the '70's, you're out of touch for 25 years, re-aqcuaint yourself by reading a few negative posts on the internet, and all of a sudden you're 100%, no bullshit sure we're all thieves, murderers, liars, and morons. Holy shit Gerry, how did you come up with such eloquent insight? What's next, round two of the Spanish inquisition? Jack Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 09:13:15 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Gerry Subject: A sick story Message: These people are public figures. They put themselves in the limelight. They take money, energy, and trust from people indiscriminately and give NOTHING back. They are blood suckers on the most basic level. Psychic Vampires if you will. All blubbering and fuzzy feelings aside, THEY KILL PEOPLE, in a very real sense. And they know it. And it doesn't matter to them as long as their power trip continues. They lie, steal and kill. Let's cut the crap and quit coddling the bastards. I wish you'd stop beating around the bush, Gerry. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 01:29:38 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Anon Subject: A sad story Message: Anon, no one is suggesting that you get blood on your hands (which is just a tad over-dramatic, don't you think?), but I think Selena's thoughtful post might give you some idea about how helpful this kind of information can be to someone who is just breaking the bonds. Frankly, I was thinking more along the lines of John that there really wasn't much of consequence in this letter, that it was really rather boring, and something that any programmed premie might have written. But Selena's comments really changed my mind on that. I don't believe the letter 'tars Maharaji' one bit. I imagine it would actually be inspiring to some premies and INCREASE their devotion to him. But for people who are questioning, I doubt there is a better example around of how truly out of touch with themselves a premie can be, or how someone can use the medieval devotional religion M teaches to avoid seeing reality entirely. The fact that BM presented Marolyn as essentially some kind of super-human, god-like, individual whom he had plucked and elevated to a higher status, and consciously presented her to us in that way, makes her statements a little more insightful than those of other premies. Don't you remember 'Dugra Mata Ki Jai!'? There is nothing that I can tell that is damaging to Marolyn in this letter. Whether it is 'hurtful' to anyone, I can't say, but I highly doubt it. She just basically gives satsang, and mostly talks about herself, not even addressing the problems of the individual she is writing to. I agree that the person who turned over the letter may have had lots of different motives, and none of us knows what they are. And, as I said, I would like to see that person post what those motives are. It may be personal anger and animosity, it may be something else.. I, for one, do not believe BM is a 'dreadful ogre.' I don't think Jim does either. I don't know anyone who thinks that. I DO, however, think he is a dangerous individual who does rip people off on a profoundly deep level, and I know this because he did it to me. Perhaps you dont' feel that way. I have no desire to hurt M or anyone else. I, like you, would like to see the truth come out and let people see for themselves. But since BM won't even address such things, won't answer questions, or even address people who doubt and have been harmed by him despite repeated attempts along the most legitimate of avenues, it is more likely that things like this letter will be useful and relevent. If BM had a true desire to protect his wife from such invasions of her privacy, he might show a little integrity and speak to reasons there might be a lot of people out there who might get angry enough to post such letters on the internet. That's the best thing he could do for Marolyn, his family, and himself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 23:32:42 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Jim Subject: Much ado about nothing Message: Well, in a way I am confused by the reaction to this letter. I don't see any reason to get bent out of shape about the invasion of privacy other than the totally non-interesting stuff about John Horton! Who cares two figs about Horton anyway? She praises her Master and her Lord and the Knowledge that he has bestowed upon her. So what? I think this letter can be viewed as a powerful testimony by premies, given Marilyn's physical problems; and I think it's a powerful statement for me, as someone who has rejected her Master. Her obvious total faith in something which I see as flawed is not something I feel I can judge or comment on. People believe in all kinds of things, it aint my business. There is absolutely nothing in here that I find controversial or new or really all that interesting. Or am I missing something?? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 23:53:07 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: John Subject: Much ado about nothing Message: Hi John, I get your point in a way, the letter is far from a 'smoking gun'. It's not as if Marolyn was talking about Prempal's secret meeting with Satpal where they agreed to divide the world and conquer. But I don't know why you say you ca't judge or comment on her 'obvious total faith'. One thing that strikes me about it is that it costs her the ability to let her mind attend to anything the least bit challenging. Premie-in-a-bottle. (Oh no, now we're going to get Keith's Sting 'interpretation'). Look how adamant she is about not letting her mind touch the world. It's perverse. And it's nothing that can be excused as a function of her convalescence either. When she says: Maharaji has shown me that my Heart has a sweet song that it wants to sing. And I need to let that happen. I need to allow my heart to fulfill itself. The ocean of troubles, problems, issues, distraction is there; it's always there, that is it's nature. But for me, practicing Knowledge, listening to my living Master, serving my Master lifts me from the illusion and I can see that although it appears real - it is not real. What is Within is Real - and means everything to me. My attention to what is TRUE really does bring me bliss. It is this I trust. she's spouting the basic premie philosophy I smushed my mind into for years. But, hey, this just dawned on me -- yesterday someone was saying that Maharaji no longer condones, let alone encourages, premies to try to 'constantly meditate and remember the Holy Name'. If that's true, and they're also not supposed to let their minds dwell on the 'ocean of troubles' what are they supposed to do with it? This thing's fucked, is all I can say. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 00:00:03 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Jim Subject: Much ado about nothing Message: But my only point is that it's not that different from the letters you posted that YOU wrote 20 years ago, or that I wrote 20 years ago. ya know? I mean, it's the same old same old: There's nothing to discuss, you must have total faith in M, you must practice K, if you don't you're an ass hole!! Now, if we could get our hands on some letters that Raja Ji writes, then we might learn something more interesting, don't you think? Maybe Claudia could be approached to help out our cause? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 00:10:37 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: John Subject: Much ado about nothing Message: John, I have to say that I see another side to this. I am still weaning myself from this spider's web, and I have to say that this letter absolutely was a valuable addition to my forum readings. It helped me see the model of thinking, the schematic - Marolyn is a good example, sadly, of the 'perfect devotee' - yet the letter also shows some kind of longing she feels, to have a real life. It's heavy and creepy and not to be easily dismissed. I am surprised you thought it no big deal. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 10:40:12 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Selena Subject: Much ado about nothing Message: Selena: Maybe if you wait another 15 years you might have a different view, since that's how long I've been separated from the cult. Time does dimninish the impact, thank God! But, what I am confused about are the screams about violation of privacy. There was info DELETED from this letter. That information must have been the information Marilyn requested that the reciever not share, and it was NOT shared! I say that must have been the information that Marilyn did not want shared because there is certainly nothing, other than the meaningless-to-me Horton references, that is damaging in any way to anyone in the rest of the letter. It's not like Marilyn confesses to doubts about M or something, ya know? I mean, it's just the opposite. It's the kind of letter a true devotee would be proud of! The real story is yet to be heard, and that's from the person that recieved this letter and chose to share it with us. I hope she/he comes forward and tells us about their journey out of the cult. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 11:15:51 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Much ado about nothing Message: I think the most telling thing about this letter for me personally was the depth of emotional response it elicited from myself. Before I started participating in this forum, I rarely thought about it. And yet one of the first searches I ran after getting on the net was on the BM. Why was this so? I mean it's been over 25 years for god's sake! But there it was festering under the surface like some un-lanced boil. That letter and the responses to it really shook the volcano in me and I had to let 'er rip. And I thought I was beyond that. Over it. No big deal. Apparently not. This is where the Forum provides a real service not only to fence sitting premies but for us old scarred up war horses. I still face the ridicule and scorn everytime I run into certain 'friends' on the East Coast. Of course I laugh and go along with the joking, but I'll tell ya, it still hurts. I feel like such a fool. Many of us were idealistic kids who had deep longings to end the illusion of separation from our creator that being human entails. The carrot was dangled in front of us and I believe it was with the highest of human aspirations that we reached out to grasp it only to find it was rotten at its core. It may well be that these people themselves are so totally deluded that they think they are doing the world a favor. In my mind (god forbid I use it) they are still responsible for the misery they create. Indeed they do 'adjust' the truth to suit their present needs and circumstances (lie), collect money under false pretenses (steal) and have a huge hand in the fact that many people were driven by despair to take their own lives (murder). I'm grateful I got off cheap. So many others paid a huge price. Call it revenge, call it justice, these people must be exposed for what they are. The other side of the story must be told. Jim's doing it, I'm doing it, we're all doing it. If that's a cult. where do I send my donations? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 12:33:14 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Gerry and the committee Subject: Much ado about nothing Message: Thanks Gerry. I had much the same reaction that you did. It did bother me that it was posted, yet at the same time I do think it was the right thing to do. I have to admit though that the idea of a committee getting more information or inside info. that isn't passed on is kind of disturbing to me. I am still processing that idea, I don't know why it bothers me. Maybe it's just the rebel in me, nurtured by all those years of being around a cult that keeps most of the inside stuff under wraps. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 13:21:42 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Selena Subject: Communication needed,imo Message: Yes, it seems to me that the committee needs to be reporting to us, the general X population on just what issues they are voting on. I would love to have known that what to do with Marilyn's letter was being discussed! And are there any other matters or issues before the committee? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 14:33:20 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: John, Selena, and all Subject: Communication needed,imo Message: Hey guys - Regarding communication: we discussed this committee stuff on this very forum, and came to a general consensus that that was what was needed. We did try bringing an issue (limiting posts) before the entire forum and got absolutely nowhere - that's when Brian established the committee, which was announced on the forum and which no one objected to at the time. (Brian had to make the post-limiting decision by himself, BTW.) Brian doesn't want to make ethical decisions about the site and forum by himself (would you?), nor does he want to throw these ethical decisions open to everyone who reads the forum (which includes a whole lot of premies). I know the committee idea isn't the greatest - but can anyone come up with a better solution? Also, do you really think it's in the best interest of everyone to reveal what the committee is discussing at any given time (nothing right now, John!)? Or do you think we should go back to the old system where the webmaster just makes all the decisions? Sorry if I seem a little irritated, but this WAS discussed at length on the forum two or three weeks ago. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 14:44:06 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Katie Subject: Communication needed,imo Message: oops, I apologise Katie, I do remember seeing the thread and I didn't pay much attention to it. And, I don't have any other solutions either. so, feeling a little sheepish I guess I don't have much more to say...I'm not experienced at managing 'organized anarchy' which is what so much of the internet seems to be. It would certainly be chaotic to try to put everything up in public in an open forum like this. I do appreciate all the effort you folks have put into this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 14:53:44 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Selena Subject: Communication needed,imo Message: Thanks, Selena. I appreciate it, and apologize for being slightly crabby! It would be great to have all the exes in here participate in decision-making processes but it's hard. The committee involves an awful lot of e-mailing on my part and that's just with six other people. BTW, if any of the exes desperately wants to be on this committee, e-mail me and I'll see what I can do! Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 01:44:06 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: everyone Subject: one more thing re committee! Message: I realized that I didn't clarify this earlier (and no doubt it will need to be clarified again!) but the committee's role is to make recommendations to Brian. The committee does NOT make final decisions. Brian makes the final decisiona about all the ethical, etc. problems concerning the site and forum, because he is ultimately responsible for their content. In this case of the letter, Brian indicated that he would abide by the committee's recommendation - however, this may not always be the case. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 13:32:07 (EST)
From: mona lisa (alias) Email: None To: Selena and all Subject: Much ado about... Exposure Message: I think that M&M and 'true' premies have to be like horses with blinders on, but they put them on themselves as protection from seeing or questioning the truth, which would have life-shaking consequences. The commandment: 'Leave no room for doubt in your mind' is the ultimate protection to the Master. Also 'Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones' and 'The higher you go the harder you fall' comes to 'mind.' Ex-premies who post here by their given names including myself, may be exposed to repercussions from angry premies who are willing to be more involved in the 'world', as it has happened before. We live in a glass house by posting here for all to read. Can I go anonymous after I've already exposed myself, or just fearlessly proceed. Is it safe here? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 13:43:08 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: mona lisa (alias) Subject: Much ado about... Exposure Message: I don't know if you are joking or not. but, I do worry about repercussions. It may just be paranoia but as Nirvana said 'just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not after you' I have seen some rather scary potential for violence amongst premies when their outlook on the bM is threatened. It has mostly taken the form of passive aggression, but you never know. It's a lethal combination when you have instability mixed up with religious fanaticism. I wouldn't put it past some of the people I know to try some kind of retaliation, maybe not physical but harmful nonetheless. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 14:11:00 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: mona lisa (alias) Subject: Much ado about... Exposure Message: The few premies I did know no longer want to know me now that they've seen my posts on the forum. But as I see it, if friendship is based on the need to believe in a guru then it's no friendship anyway. It is a pity though that my posts to this forum have made those premies feel that they can no longer know me. If any premies were stupid enough to try to use violence on me I would immediately bring into use some good friends of mine who are expert in this field. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 14:15:51 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Much ado about... Exposure Message: Sir David, I'm curious. Do those premies who won't talk to you anymore, how did they find out about your posts on the forum? Do you think they just routinely read the forum regularly, or did they look at the forum because they know you and know you are posting? In my opinion, premies are reading this forum in large numbers, but don't dare post themselves. Do you think that's true? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 20:08:09 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: JW Subject: Much ado about... Exposure Message: Yes you're right there. The premies I used to know found the web site if they were on the net and obviously read the forum. I think any premie who's on the net will be regularly reading this forum, if only out of curiosity. I know that's what happened with my ex-premie friends. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 16:41:55 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: mona lisa (alias) Subject: Much ado about... Exposure Message: Mona, I share your concerns about safety. So, I'm a physical coward...that's why I keep a loaded shotgun under my bed. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 09:33:29 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Selena Subject: Much ado about nothing Message: Selena: It did bother me that it was posted, yet at the same time I do think it was the right thing to do. I have to admit though that the idea of a committee getting more information or inside info. that isn't passed on is kind of disturbing to me.... I am still processing that idea, I don't know why it bothers me. Maybe it's just the rebel in me, nurtured by all those years of being around a cult that keeps most of the inside stuff under wraps. Anything that's important will make it's way to the forum, rest assured. The committee is just a buffer, so that Brian and Katie don't have to make all these decisions themselves (especially Brian). I very much doubt it will become an oligarchy. Just a hunch. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 17:16:10 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Much ado about nothing Message: Thanks Scott. I do tend to overreact to structure at times. Comes from working in a beaurocracy for so long, I suspect. I think the people here are really cool and to be honest, I think i posted that about the committee because I am just plain curious about the circumstances of the letter. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 12:44:47 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Much ado about nothing Message: Thanks for that, Gerry. Very well said. I can feel the emotion behind it, too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 17:52:40 (EST)
From: Larkin Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co To: If the cap fits Subject: Crying shame! Message: Everybody has a view On what's a wicked thing to do, Or what's a good and noble deed (And folks are seldom all agreed) But whether Jim was right or wrong Is not the purpose of this song; It's for those who would cry 'shame!' But read the letter just the same. Kinda hard here not to see Your scorn as sheer hypocrisy. You knew her words were not for you Yet still you read Parts 1 and 2! - I guess you couldn't bear to miss it - All the same, you're now complicit In this personal intrusion into Mrs M's confusion. Your outrage proves you've read the thing And snips your bumble of its sting (what...?) (try again...) Your outrage proves you've read the post And makes your cause give up the ghost (hmm...?) (ok, one more try...) Your outrage proves you've read the letter You and Jim? - well you're no better (that will have to do.) Guess that's all I have to say Now I'll bid you all Good Day. xxxlarkin Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 18:53:36 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Larkin Subject: Crying shame! Message: It's Larkin I wish we could hire To make our endless meetings acquire Far more zest and entertainment Right now they're like a court arraignment! ok, I try. just give me a little time. Really Larkin, we need you in the institution I work in - you could put things in perspective. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 19:44:42 (EST)
From: larkin Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Selena Subject: Crying shame! Message: Thanks Selena, for the rhyme (scansion takes a little time...) xxxlarkin Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 22:45:30 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: larkin Subject: Crying shame! Message: My post disappeared so I am reposting so if it shows up twice that's why. RE: scansion - Larkin, que pasa? I need to know as I am embarking on a communications degree. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 15:09:50 (EST)
From: larkin Email: None To: Selena Subject: Crying shame! Message: Ok, here's scansion lesson number 1: There once was a man from Tralee Who was stung on the neck by a wasp When asked 'does it hurt?' He replied, 'Not a bit, It can do it again if it likes. Note this doesn't rhyme, but scans perfectly, while: There once was a man from Japan Whose poetry never would scan When folk asked him why He told them 'I try To fit as many words into the last time that I possibly can. rhymes perfectly, but its scansion goes to hell in the last line. But scansion isn't just getting the correct number of words - or even syllables - into each line, it also involves making sure that a word's natural stresses fall on the accented beats within the poem's metre. For example, Stevie Wonder's couplet: You must have known that I was lonely, Because you came to my rescue... may be a charming sentiment, but the scansion is horrible (IMHO), because the way it is welded to the tune forces the singer to sing rescue rather than rescue, which is the way it is pronounced in normal speech. It may be, of course, that Stevie had a friend called Myra who was holding a garage sale but was late opening up, and the line is actually 'Because you came to Myra's queue' - in which case, of course, the scansion is perfect. Many modern poems neither scan nor rhyme, and you could easily fill a waste skip with poems that don't rhyme, scan or even seem to mean anything (this is because they are what is known to the literati as profound). I had a teacher once who said the only way you can tell poetry from prose is in whether or not the lines reach the right hand edge of the page. So maybe it's not that difficult after all... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 22:13:00 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: Larkin Subject: Crying shame! Message: Don't usually like adding to the chorus but....Damn,you're good at this stuff! In case this song/limerick/poem makes any reference to my post from earlier today: Yeah,sure.Of course I read it and I said as much at the very beginning of the post.I also slow down to look at car accidents.So?Are you saying that the moment I felt 'hey,this is too personal' that I should have stopped reading right then and that because I read it all that I am somehow as complicit in its publication as those I feel did wrong?Or just that once I actually read it I had no right to be outraged by its publication?Hey;I'm not a baby-if my stance was truly hypocritical and you can convince me of such I'll accept it as a lesson learned.Gladly. In no way shape or form do I think that I'm better,more holier then thou,or any of all that kind of elitist condescending pompous crap,then any one posting,lurking,existing here, or anywhere else humans are found.Hell,I don't even think I'm holier then Maharaji.We're all human and we all make mistakes and we're all hopefully learning.(yeah,yeah,yeah,I know:platitudes will get me nowhere).Still....really;you raise some valid points that merit investigation.For example;if we go over to some friends house to watch a fake snuff film and a few minutes into it we all realize that it in fact is NOT fake and is real but continue to watch because we're in shock and can't believe what we're seeing;are we as guilty as the film makers?Are we then not entitled to be outraged by what we saw because we chose to watch it? (please excuse this disgusting example but I think it cuts right to the core of this question-apologies to anyone offended) When I said jim crossed a sacred line and 'shame' and all that stuff I was expressing how I was feeling about the posting of the letter.Those were my gut reactions.Also;I didn't say I lost respect for jim.I said I've lost most of the remaining respect that I had for his tactics.Very different,as I'm sure jim understood from my post.I also didn't say that his tactictical insight into posting the letter was wrong.Actually in the long run I believe that this particular tactical move of his could acheive what may be a desired effect:Getting Maharaji's attention to the point where Maharaji may actually have a look at this web site. I just don't agree with,or have respect for this tactical move.Never said it wouldn't work.Just that I wouldn't have posted it regardless of what it may ultimately(have) lead to. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 22:50:42 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: bftb Subject: Crying shame - off topic Message: Hey bftb, This probably isn't the right place or time to do this, but I did want to catch you while you were here. I understand and respect your feelings about the letter, although I don't feel quite the same way that you do (see my post about 'the committee and the letter). I don't quite agree with Larkin either, and I think you made a good rebuttal. What I wanted to say is that I have missed your posts on the forum. You may have time to keep up with it anymore, but I would appreciate hearing from you once in a while if you get a chance - you have a unique perspective that I enjoy. Regards from Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 23:33:03 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: Katie Subject: Crying shame - off topic Message: Well a big appreciative hey back to you! Thanks for the kind words Katie.I pop in now and then but haven't really felt like I've had anything to say.Until today of course. O.K. I'll slip back to lurking mode now.Unless I get dragged back in:-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 11:01:55 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: bftb Subject: Crying shame! Message: ;if we go over to some friends house to watch a fake snuff film and a few minutes into it we all realize that it in fact is NOT fake and is real but continue to watch because we're in shock and can't believe what we're seeing;are we as guilty as the film makers?Are we then not entitled to be outraged by what we saw because we chose to watch it? (please excuse this disgusting example but I think it cuts right to the core of this question-apologies to anyone offended) In this situation I feel that I would be obligated to first act in a way that affords me the most protection. If that involves 'playing along' so be it. After the event I would, of course, be obligated to go to the appropriate authorities. I read Marolyn's letter in the first place because I was asked to do so, and felt it my obligation. I did not read it a second time on the forum, primarily because I was already familiar with it's contents. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 11:52:16 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: bftb Subject: Crying shame! Message: Please excuse me if this is an unbelievably ignorant question, but what is a 'fake snuff film?' I don't think I have ever heard that term before. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 12:11:24 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: JW Subject: Fake Snuff Message: JW: Please excuse me if this is an unbelievably ignorant question, but what is a 'fake snuff film?' I don't think I have ever heard that term before. I think it's a movie about the production of a nasal inhalant made from ginseng and licorice rather than real tobacco. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 16:19:07 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Fake Snuff Message: Okay, I get it. bftb would be shocked if exposed to a film about real pulverized tobacco, as opposed to fake pulverized tobacco. This is much clearer to me now. Thank you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 16:55:30 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: JW Subject: Crying shame! Message: I don't know what a fake snuff film is either.Poor choice of words that was.What I meant was 'a horror movie' of the slasher variety where in fact it turns out to be real.'Fake snuff film' was used I suppose because I knew where I was heading was to the snuff film angle.I should have worded it this way:'...to see a slasher movie,that turned out to be an actual snuff film'. This is hopefully unnecessary, but,for the record I have no interest in slasher movies,gratuitous violence,etc....but I felt that it was probably the most sensationally effective scenario to frame the ethical question in and get right to the heart of the issue in an attention grabbing way. Perhaps I should have used a more tame example. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 15:13:39 (EST)
From: larkin Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: bftb Subject: Hypocrites? - me too! Message: Hi btfb, I'll slip into prose for a minute and try to give your well-considered post a sensible reply. First, I actually wrote my poem before I read your contributions to the thread, so I certainly didn't have you (or anybody) in mind - and that's why I addressed it to 'If the cap fits'. Your own posts, in fact, show very clearly your understanding of the moral contradictions involved when you're trying to find out about something you suspect you're not going to approve of. I sometimes wonder how the film censors feel about their work. Truth is, btfb, I didn't really approve of the letter's posting here, either, yet read it right through a couple of times. Then I wrote this poem which probably makes me the biggest hypocrite of the lot! But the purpose of the thing was really observation rather than condemnation. I suspect we're all more voyeuristic than we'd like to admit. During the last five years of Princess Diana's life, following the breakup of her marriage, her private phone calls were repeated tapped and their contents published; ex-lovers wrote books documenting intimate details of their relationship including the contents of love letters; photographers with zoom lenses made a fortune taking intrusive snaps for the tabloids. The newspapers published as much of the stuff as they could get their grubby hands on, and their sales doubled every time. Then she gets killed in a tunnel at the hands of a drunk driving at 100mph, whilst not wearing a seat belt, and suddenly half the country is stirred to moral outrage at the press for 'hounding the princess to her death'. These were, of course, the same general public who had been the ultimate paymasters behind the hounding (and would be first to assure the world how much much they 'cared' about the princess). When it comes to caring about Mrs M, I betcha even those who would purport to care about her (ie., practising premies), eagerly devoured every word of that letter ( of course you did, Bruce! ), and there is probably a greater level of hypocrisy going on there. At least us ex's are mostly pretty flinted-hearted when it comes to the Rawat tribe - so what else can you really expect? Ultimately, though, if somebody says 'hey, I have so-and-so's private letter here, would you like a look at it?', we all know what our answer should be. Regards, Larkin Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 20:23:51 (EST)
From: Anon Email: None To: larkin Subject: Hypocrites? - me too! Message: Exactly, Gossip and voyeurism can be ways to learn of reality. Nothing to be ashamed of. There was a site on the net which I found (it has since vanished) which announced itself as a museum, an unique collection of outrageous photographs. Everything from severed limbs, police pictures of murder victims, pictures taken by murderers as they killed and cut up their victims (Jeffrey Dahmer?), people run over by tanks in Tiannamen square, suicides, dead babies, aircraft accident victims, people run over by trains...in short all the things that may well ruin your day if you were to see them. Me and my friend had a look, and we are pretty hardened adults, I can tell you that those pictures made us feel dismal. Why did we look. Curiosity, the wish to see reality..all those things you wonder about.. but are protected from by the censor. ( I am not advocating lack of censorship in any form by the way) Lady Diana is a good case in point. The royal family were considered sacrosanct by the public for centuries. As feted public figures who could blame the public for wanting to have a peep into the private lives of their monarchs. Unfortunately they found that the rumours (which were much denied) were all true! What carryings-on had been happening all along! What affairs, what sexual shannanagins, betrayals etc! Maharaji and his family are no different. Premies eagerly devour snippets of information about the private life of their Master, hoping to procure some further wonderful parable from his daily behind-the-scenes life. Others are a little more down to earth in their interpretation of the 'rumours'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 17:22:49 (EST)
From: x Email: None To: Everyone Subject: xx Message: What is the name of Maharaji's mistress. I need to know today. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 17:29:10 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: x Subject: y Message: do you need to know today of all days? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 18:03:48 (EST)
From: Mr Ex Email: None To: x Subject: xx Message: Are you in charge of the 1st row seats in Miami ? Be careful not to have her seated near Mrs Rawat, she DOES NOT appreciate her company. Better have her seated in the photographers area .... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 19:51:08 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Mr Ex Subject: xx Message: Better have her seated in the photographers area .... Oh, Mr. Ex, you are a naughty boy. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 12:03:34 (EST)
From: peter Email: None To: Mr Ex Subject: xx Message: Why not she is done it whit a Security many years ago in the Motor Home this security was very tall and I believe the place was were they used to have the horses you remember? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 19:16:23 (EST)
From: Mr Ex Email: None To: x Subject: xx or y Message: Blond Barbie doll ? which one ? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 23:09:49 (EST)
From: Keith Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The letter Message: I don't want to say too much. I mostly agree with Anon's post. Jim has done it AGAIN. As with me (Vacol)..(to a far lesser degree), he has shown that he believes the means justifies the ends....or rather the end that he(Jim)envisages. Jim feels that his personal grievances, his subjective views, his anger..and so on(the operative word is 'HIS')justified outing me and in a way doing the same type of thing with Marolyn's letter. Personally, I add my voice to those who feel that Jim has overstepped the mark again! Keith. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 23:39:33 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Keith Subject: You don't mean that Message: Keith, You probably meant 'the ends justifies the means'. Now don't let me put words in your mouth or anything. You know me, just trying to help. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 00:37:47 (EST)
From: Keith Email: None To: Jim Subject: You don't mean that Message: Thanks Jim...It's a bit like spelling my name Kieth! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 18:44:03 (EST)
From: Middle Man Email: None To: Keith Subject: Keith forgot 1 thing Message: We're not living in the same world! You're obviously in the 'world of K/M' .... whatever that means, a mere CULT IMHO were in the real one, and on an ex-premies Forum where we exes have every right to say what we say, and express what we express. It's obvious you won't like it, and you might like it less and less, as more of BM's abuses will become public. If you don't want your feelings to be hurt, because it's NOT my purpose, nor is it Jim's I guess, why don't you just go to some place where you can entertain yourself ? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 22:12:58 (EST)
From: Keith Email: None To: Middle Man and all Subject: Keith enjoys variety. Message: Keith enjoys this forum. He enjoys the serious....the frivolous....poetic...logical...silly...light...heavy...heartfelt....mindful...soulful...loving...hating....sarcastic...ironic... spiritual...religious...scientific...academic...challenging... biased...open...fanatical...healing...masculine...feminine... unusual...commonplace...controversial...and seemingly infinite types of 'stuff' that gets shared....sometimes!! And keith enjoyed doing 'this'! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 15:44:17 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Spamming, completely off topic Message: This comes from: Phil Hugger - UnixOps / Information Technology Services - University of Colorado - Boulder Campus: The term 'SPAM' for unsolicited bulk email, or mass postings of advertisements on USENET did, in fact, originate with a Monty Python skit. A couple enters a cafe, and finds that every item on the menu contains spam. A group of surly, raucous vikings (complete with horned helmets) on a nearby table break into song every time they hear the word 'spam,' drowning out all other conversation. ---------- Monty Python Spam Sketch Scene: A cafe. One table is occupied by a group of Vikings with horned helmets on. A man and his wife enter. Man: You sit here, dear. Wife: All right. Man: (to Waitress) Morning! Waitress: Morning! Man: Well, what've you got? Waitress: Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam; spam bacon sausage and spam; spam egg spam spam bacon and spam; spam sausage spam spam bacon spam tomato and spam; Vikings: (starting to chant) Spam spam spam spam... Waitress: ...spam spam spam egg and spam; spam spam spam spam spam spam baked beans spam spam spam... Vikings: (singing) Spam! Lovely spam! Lovely spam! Waitress: ...or Lobster Thermidor aux Crevette with a mornay sauce served in a Provencale manner with shallots and aubergines garnished with truffle pate, brandy and with a fried egg on top and spam. Wife: Have you got anything without spam? Waitress: Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it. Wife: I don't want any spam! Man: Why can't she have egg bacon spam and sausage? Wife: That's got spam in it! Man: Hasn't got as much spam in it as spam egg sausage and spam, has it? Vikings: Spam spam spam spam (crescendo through next few lines) Wife: Could you do the egg bacon spam and sausage without the spam then? Waitress: Urgghh! Wife: What do you mean 'Urgghh'? I don't like spam! Vikings: Lovely spam! Wonderful spam! Waitress: Shut up! Vikings: Lovely spam! Wonderful spam! Waitress: Shut up! (Vikings stop) Bloody Vikings! You can't have egg bacon spam and sausage without the spam. Wife: (shrieks) I don't like spam! Man: Sshh, dear, don't cause a fuss. I'll have your spam. I love it. I'm having spam spam spam spam spam spam spam beaked beans spam spam spam and spam! Vikings: (singing) Spam spam spam spam. Lovely spam! Wonderful spam! Waitress: Shut up!! Baked beans are off. Man: Well could I have her spam instead of the baked beans then? Waitress: You mean spam spam spam spam spam spam... (but it is too late and the Vikings drown her words) Vikings: (singing elaborately) Spam spam spam spam. Lovely spam! Wonderful spam! Spam spa-a-a-a-a-am spam spa-a-a-a-a-am spam. Lovely spam! Lovely spam! Lovely spam! Lovely spam! Lovely spam! Spam spam spam spam! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 15:49:40 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Spamming, completely off topic Message: They say you should never eat at your computer desk. Now I know why. I just spewed half-chewed pot stickers all over the keyboard. Thanks Scott! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 16:00:00 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Gerry Subject: Spamming, completely off topic Message: Dear Gerry, What the hell are pot stickers!!! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 16:20:21 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Spamming, completely off topic Message: Pot stickers, my dear, are an exquisite Chinese delicacy composed of ground road kill, and composted vegetable matter wrapped in soppy dough. They are available in the frozen food section of your neighborhood Costco's in the convenient 40 pound bag size. Patty makes me eat them when she's mad at me. A bag usually lasts about a week. The main reasons they are my dietary staple of late are: 1) I trade commodity futures 2) I just paid $500 for a kitten. Hope this explains things. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 15:58:59 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Scott T. Subject: Spamming, completely off topic Message: Dear Scott, That must be an older skit because I saw it and haven't had access to any channel that would carry Monty Python for years. Very funny. I have been wondering what spamming was so thanks for the explination and it's origins. I just emailed you to. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 17:27:36 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: missing the boat again! Message: Sorry for being so damn dense Scott old fellow, but could you explain what the connection is between unsoliticted mail and the Monty Python skit? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 17:41:30 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: John Subject: missing the boat again! Message: John: Just guessing mind you, but it could be the concept of massive quantities of unwanted and rather stinky 'stuff' produced with great enthusiasm by a relatively small number of plunderers. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 10:39:19 (EST)
From: JM Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Hans Yog Prakash / Jude Message: Hey Jude, could you please email me your address ? I'll send you the scans. OCR doesn't work well because of those funky indian typewriters and poor photocopies. Some service (for mind) ! jm jmkahn@hol.fr Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 20:40:00 (EST)
From: Anon Email: None To: JM Subject: Hans Yog Prakash / Jude Message: In my experience OCR works on these more difficult pages if you first scan the typed page into Adobe Photoshop at 200 dpi (grayscale) and then boost the contrast and brightness.(@+20) You can also adjust the levels to get a better balance.('Autolevels' is good) It is important also to rotate the image to get as perfect a straight alignment as possible. Then save this as a TIFF or Pict and import it into Omni Page Direct. (OCR Application for Mac). I don't mean to 'teach Granma to suck eggs' but I have found that this works (everytime) much better than scanning directly into the OCR app. which is usually a total disaster. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 04:46:51 (EST)
From: JM Email: None To: Anon Subject: Hans Yog Prakash / Jude Message: I've tried all this, I'm familiar with OCr too. The problem is that it's Indian stuff: nothing works with Indian stuff, except maybe for Indian OCR software:-)) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 08:19:47 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Journeys, White Pages Message: I've added/updated some White Pages entries, and John Cavad's mail should drop some now that there is a new Journeys entry at the top of the list. Sorry/Congratulations, John (as the case may be). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 02:27:00 (EST)
From: gumby Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Just for fun... Message: An anagram, as we all know, is a word or phrase made by transposing or rearranging the letters of another word or phrase. The following examples are quite astounding! Dormitory ==> Dirty Room Evangelist ==> Evil's Agent Desperation ==> A Rope Ends It The Morse Code ==> Here Come Dots Slot Machines ==> Cash Lost in 'em Animosity ==> Is No Amity Mother-in-law ==> Woman Hitler Snooze Alarms ==> Alas! No More Z's Alec Guinness ==> Genuine Class Semolina ==> Is No Meal The Public Art Galleries ==> Large Picture Halls, I Bet A Decimal Point ==> I'm a Dot in Place The Earthquakes ==> That Queer Shake Eleven plus two ==> Twelve plus one Contradiction ==> Accord not in it This one's amazing: [From Hamlet by Shakespeare] To be or not to be: that is the question, whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. ==> In one of the Bard's best-thought-of tragedies, our insistent hero, Hamlet, queries on two fronts about how life turns rotten. Politicians: George Herbert Walker Bush ==> Huge Berserk Rebel Warthog George Bush ==> He bugs Gore Ronald Wilson Reagan ==> A long-insane Warlord (or Insane Anglo warlord) Ronald Reagan ==> A darn long era Leroy Newton Gingrich ==> Yon Right-winger Clone Margaret Thatcher ==> That great charmer The Conservative Party ==> Teacher in vast poverty And the grand finale: 'That's one small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind.' -- Neil A. Armstrong ==> A thin man ran; makes a large stride; left planet, pins flag on moon! On to Mars! GAGBWY -gumby Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 06:17:46 (EST)
From: Keith Email: None To: gumby Subject: Just for fun... Message: Mind boggling! Who is the author ? Who has time and patience? And why? Oh, yeah.......just for fun! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 11:20:41 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Keith Subject: feeling mean Message: It's a computer program, Einstein. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 00:37:34 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Mata Ji, Sutton & Gallwey Message: I spoke with Ms. Berestein again today about the People article she's working on (gurus of the 70s). She's really getting into it but doesn't know for sure if it'll run or if, if it does, Maharaji will make the cut. The problem, apparently, is that by stonewalling the press, Maharaji becomes a 'write around'. I guess that's a negative. (Apparently only two of the target -- oops, sorry, 'subject' gurus would talk). Anyway, Ms. Berestein's floored by the story and is having a lot of fun with it, for what that's worth. I'd suggested she talk with Tim Gallwey for some semi-official cult comment. She did and she also talked to Ross Sutton from Maharaji's anti-press/propoganda office. I won't say what she said about them because well, it's not nice to tell, but I will say that they both blamed Mata Ji for everything. Big, bad mama was responsible for all the religiosity, etc. etc. That's the official party line, I guess. Query -- whose a whackier revisionist: Bal Bhagwan Ji, who claims that he became the guru immediately after dad's death and goes so far as to deny Maharaji's (and Raja Ji's) very existence, or Margie, who denies that he announced himself to the world as the Saviour of Mankind, Supreme Lord in Human Form and impressario of a new, gloden age for all mankind? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 12:27:14 (EST)
From: Paul Email: None To: Jim Subject: Mata Ji, Sutton & Gallwey Message: I recently read an issue of the newsletter the 'SystemsThinker,' (a legit publication out of Boston based on Peter Senge's work) and lo and behold the main article was by Tim Gallwey. He's been an Organizational consultant these last years and has a new book coming out this year 'The Inner Game of Work.' Is he still actively involved with M? PS I used to watch him give tennis lessons when I lived in the LA ashram. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 13:07:59 (EST)
From: Mr Ex Email: None To: Paul Subject: Mata Ji, Sutton & Gallwey Message: Oh yes !!!! Tim is involved as an Organizational consultant for EV Inc. He might even be paid for this! He works with the international organizers, BM's staff, etc. BM has quite some 'consultants' around him. I still wonder if he really listens to anybody, how his whole system doesn't fall apart .... maybe he really has some grace with him:-)) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 13:46:20 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Paul Subject: Senge, et al. Message: Paul: I considered the program at the Sloan School at MIT for my Ph.D. work, and met Senge when I went there to scope it out. I had been very impressed by his book and by Forrester's early work on this systems stuff. I've since become somewhat disillusioned and the notion that Galleway is treated with respect is sort of the last straw. John Warfield does work here on 'Interpretive Structural Modeling' which has been used in various venues, especially the US Military, and at Ford. He has decribed his work as an attempt to undo all the overly mystified work based Forrester (which includes Senge). In his estimation they act as though they had discovered the principal of integral calculus as the key to understanding organizational dynamics. He feels they don't really understand much at all. Senge's work is precisely the type of stuff that would appeal to Galleway and to EV, because it's a 'top-down' conception of systems. That is, the only people who really have input into the 'system model' and therefore are in a position to know how all the pieces fit are the ones at the top (especially the consultants). Warfield's work involves utilizing expertise at all levels of an organization, in a dialogue and voting process that uses a matrix algorithm, to construct a system model or a problematique. The only person that really votes in the Senge/Forrester conception is the consultant, who is supposed to be more or less all-knowing. As Warfield puts it: 'Garbage in, garbage out.' -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 10:04:28 (EST)
From: Paul Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Senge, et al. Message: Thanks for the info. How can get hold of Warfield's material, i.e., the names of books, etc. I teach Org. Beh. and am always looking to expand my knowledge (small k). Paul Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 10:20:17 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Paul Subject: Is this as boring as it looks? Message: Hi guys, I took a look at the Sloan school stuff yesterday. Forgive my bluntness (and maybe my ignorance, and yes, my arrogance, but please, never my tenderness!) but isn't this stuff incredibly jargon heavy/content light? Okay, hit me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 12:06:04 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim and Paul Message: Jim: ... but isn't this stuff incredibly jargon heavy/content light? In my opinion that's a fair assessment. I've also heard that Warfield's approach (which is quite different from Senge's) amounts to 'technological overkill.' Don't tell John that I said this, but in many cases there's at least some truth to that criticism. Paul: I'll scrounge up a citation list for you, but in mean time here is Dr. Warfield's email address. Remember to be respectful. jnwarf@concentric.net -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 07, 1998 at 12:35:48 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Mata Ji, Sutton & Gallwey Message: Oh, my god. I DO hope something gets published, if for no other reason than to see the 'blame-Mata-Ji' drivel exposed. That would be seen as such a transparent lie to even current premies (who were around in the 70s at least) that every shred of credibility would be gone from BM, not that there is much anyway. I mean the cult-behavior, the ashrams, and all the 'I-a-god' stuff only got WORSE in the years AFTER Mata Ji was excommunicated in 1974. Ross Sutton would have a hard time explaining BM's behavior in the 1974-1983 period. Of course, when THAT backfires, BM can blame Ross Sutton for saying something so stupid. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |