Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 6 | |
From: May 2, 1998 |
To: May 11, 1998 |
Page: 5 Of: 5 |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 01:25:10 (EST)
From: gumby Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The Good, the Bad, the gumby. Message: Hi All, I just read read through a whole bunch of posts on the topic of Grace below. I would like to share some things that are coming up in me right now. God has put the desire to know him, in everyone one of us. I believe this to be true for all of us no matter where we are at in our lives, on our journey, no matter what events are happening to us. My experience has showed me that this is true. Scripture backs up my experience. I believe that God's intention for all of us is our well being. I also believe that when caca happens, that it is doesn't necessarily mean that it is from God. I also know, from experience, the Joy, Peace, Contentment, and Strength that is within me, from having a direct personal relationship with God. We all have our defintions, our images of God, Scripture lets us know more about who God is. We have promises from God, when we choose to know him. But just like any relationship takes time, willingness, and effort to grow. So too, does getting to know God. This doesn't mean that life's trials and tribulations cease. This doesn't mean that we find instant success. But, I believe that having a direct, real, personal relationship with Jesus the Christ as your Savior, will bring you Peace, Joy and Love as you have never experienced before. You don't need to join a church, you don't need to send any money, you don't need to hop on an airplane, you don't need to watch a video, you don't need to join an ashram, you don't need to suffer for the rest of your breathing days, you don't need to believe me. Try it for yourself. Right now: Accept Jesus Christ alone as your personal Savior. What do you have to lose? What are you afraid of? Speak, for I have been where you might be at. May God's Grace be multiplied in all of you. -gumby Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 02:21:16 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: gumby Subject: The Good, the Bad, the gumby. Message: The main problem with doing what you suggest, gumby, is that it's not just a one-shot deal. For my money, you have to squint at reality just a little too much to see Jesus' face and, the moment you're not willing to keep squinting, he's gone. No, I've never 'accepted Jesus in my heart' but I sure know a lot who have. In each case, they not only stand by their moment of 'conversion' but also avoid any real scrutiny that could reverse the whole thing. If you really want to get into this, I will. But, in the end, I think you'll do what all good Christians do, and beg off in the name of fate. Tell me right now that you won't do that and I'll hash it out with you. But I'm not going to start if you're not going to finish. Frankly, I think the idea of believing hat there is a consciousness known as Jesus out there somewhere is ludicrous and every bit as misguided as believing in Maharaji. The diff is that Maharaji victimized me and he's still around doing it to others and subject to confrontation. Plus, his grip is necessarily tihghter than any long gone religious figurehead. You sure you want to do this? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 08:04:17 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: The Good, the Bad, the gumby. Message: Jim: Frankly, I think the idea of believing hat there is a consciousness known as Jesus out there somewhere is ludicrous and every bit as misguided as believing in Maharaji. You might be right, but the evidence is not as clear cut. I mean, that business about Sapphira and her husband has always bothered me, but that has to do with the organization of a belief in Christ into a religious movement. There is some evidence to suggest that Jesus was at least good. He was an 'ethical eschatologist,' if nothing else. In the face of that uncertainty it is quite possible to believe in Jesus' divinity, while simultaneously believing that the universe is not perverse. In Maharaji's case, those two beliefs cannot be made consistent. For me, the real problem with Gumby's rather conventional challenge is that if you say it and don't believe it (as some Christians would have you do, just to satisfy their egos) then you are, by definition, a liar. There is also a certain amount of embarrassment in making such a statement out loud, like a girl wearing a hand-me-down dress to the prom, but that ought to be acceptable for an ethical person. No, ultimately the problem is whether you're lying to yourself about the state of your own belief. There is no formula that can get you around that. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 13:23:11 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Scott T. Subject: The Good, the Bad, the gumby. Message: Dear Scott, That 2nd paragraph really resounds in me. Well said! For me, the real problem with Gumby's rather conventional challenge is that if you say it and don't believe it (as some Christians would have you do, just to satisfy their egos) then you are, by definition, a liar. There is also a certain amount of embarrassment in making such a statement out loud, like a girl wearing a hand-me-down dress to the prom, but that ought to be acceptable for an ethical person. No, ultimately the problem is whether you're lying to yourself about the state of your own belief. There is no formula that can get you around that. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 07:33:43 (EST)
From: Anon Email: None To: gumby Subject: The Good, the Bad, the gumby. Message: Gumby wrote: Try it for yourself. Right now: Accept Jesus Christ alone as your personal Savior. What do you have to lose? What are you afraid of? Speak, for I have been where you might be at. Gumby, I was brought up as a Christian and have done all of this 'asking Jesus into my heart' etc. before. Please don't start trying to convert others on this forum. To me all this is really simplistic mumbo-jumbo and demands just as much wishful thinking as being a premie. Though I can see that Jesus taught many good things I do not propose to accept or kid myself that any master dead or alive is my personal Saviour. I am sick of religion in all its forms. You should see our local church, full of 'happy-clappy' Christians who seem smug and hypocritical in their own way. I used to get more spiriual upliftment in Church listening to the beautiful music of Bach and others. Stuff the juvenile, inane, puerile, modern compositions of the new Christian cult that seems to be taking over. Even Buddhism seems ridiculous now. My Niece is a Buddhist Nun in California. Now they are at odds with the Dalai Lama because he has banned them from worshipping their precious deity called 'Dorje Shugden' or something. All religions are traps to free thinking in my opinion. Like some other people I can no longer believe in anything and that doesn't mean that I don't have any values or sense of spirituality or purpose. Don't have much time at present but I could go on... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 09:12:38 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: gumby Subject: The Good, the Bad, the gumby. Message: Gumby, if you were with me in person and asked me to accept JC into my life as my personal savior, I'd give you a hug, smile, and walk away from you hoping inside that I never have to see you again. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 09:55:47 (EST)
From: Burnt cheddar Email: David.Studio57@tinternet.comb To: gumby Subject: The Good, the Bad, the gumby. Message: I just met a Turkish Cypriot girl who I hadn't seen since before Christmas and while last time I saw her she was wearing western clothes and looking carefree, now today she's covered her hair and is all dressed up in Muslim attire. This is what happens every time she goes back to Turkish Cyprus and then slowly she regains her TRUE identity of the free and uncovered girl she is. Unfortunately religion seems to take away people's identity and try and make them think in a non individualistic way. The Christian church would never accept me, Gumby unless I changed my business. And if I did that I would have no business and my children, ex-wife, employees and ultimately I would suffer. Why has Christianity more relevance than say, my Turkish friend's Islam. What good does any religion do? Look at many of the religions and you'll see abuse of women and of children. Moses David's cult regularly practised child abuse and yet they had let Jesus into their hearts. It's an individual thing. If you feel Jesus in your heart then that's fine. But does it pay the bills? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 13:27:38 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Burnt cheddar Subject: The Good, the Bad, the gumby. Message: Dear Ched, What are you, a porn star? or a booky? Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 13:18:13 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: gumby Subject: The Good, the Bad, the gumby. Message: Dear gumby, My mother was a believer in Jesus Christ as her savior and the savior of her children as well. She believed this in between the beatings and the threats for our silence. That experience just about turned me off to Jesus Christ and the organized (intitutions) of religion that have sprung up as a result of his living. I was just thinking earlier that I believe he was a good, great man and maybe even the son of god etc but why is the worship for him and not his message. Maybe if my mom was worshiping the turn the other cheeck message instead of the dead body of Christ's myself and my 4 sisters would have been a lot happier! I believe that is why there are diffent ways to god or spirituality. I think of myself as spiritual and NOT religious and thank god that I at least salvaged that much of my thirst for spirituality. I am happy that this works for you though. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 15:47:46 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: gumby Subject: The Good, the Bad, the gumby. Message: gumby, I hope that you are going to answer Jim because I am pretty interested in hearing what both of you have to say about this. I go to a church here and I like it a lot. I like the community of people, who are great. They are humans and have their faults, yes. I know what you mean about the hypocrites, Anon, but the people at this church are trying to be decent people. I am not sure that I want to let the actions of humans keep me from experiencing God. I have lots of questions about Christ and at times it is very hard for me to believe in a perfect master on earth. I know that this is due to my involvment with Maharaji. On the other hand, I agree with a lot of the things that Christ taught. I have trouble with the part of the package where people tell you to just do what you want and accept Christ and you will be forgiven and 'saved.' I know this has to do with my upbringing which was in a church heavily influenced by the book of James, which deals with good works. Christ did good works and to me this is important. To try to be a good person is more important to me than just accepting a set of beliefs which enables you to be a bad person who asks for forgiveness later. I know this is not the case with all Christians. I am still at a questioning phase in my life about this, but I do believe in God. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:14:26 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: gumby Subject: Come back, gumby Message: Gumby, I'm a little concerned that, having uttered your Christian outburst and having received ... well, what'd you expect anyway? I'd just hate to think that you'd be so pissed off, idsappointed or maybe even embarrassed that you'd want to stay away. Know what I mean? This isn't exactly good recruiting grounds for any mission of faith, you know. At least I don't think so. Hope you're well. Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 18:27:16 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: gumby Subject: The Good, the Bad, the gumby. Message: Maybe I'm like VP in that I actually belong to a church that is ostensibly 'christian,' but I don't even believe Jesus Christ was divine. I do, however, think he was a good role model, and my local church is full of great, open-minded people, and they do lots of good things in the community for other people that I think JC would approve of. 'Accepting Jesus Christ in my heart' is a pretty meaningless thing to me. The problem I have with a lot of christianity is what goes along with it. Someone interprets the Bible, takes it literally, and uses that to inspire hatred of other people. I'm thinking of the use by christianity of the bible to condone slavery, homophobia, racism, anti-semitism, and even murder of people who won't accept 'jesus' in their hearts, or at least say they do. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 23:06:10 (EST)
From: Father Mickey Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: JW Subject: The Good, the Bad, the gumby. Message: Sheesh, guess I should check in on this one. I am not of the Jesus In My Heart school of Christianity, although I was raised in an Evangelical household. The Jesus in My Heart stuff is a style of conversion which comes from the Charles Wesley, an 18th century Anglican priest who, after an unsuccessful stint in the American Colonies, returned to England after spending time with some Moravians. He described his conversion experience with the line 'my heart was strangely warmed.' The Jesus in My Heart stuff was a big part of the Great Awakening and the Second Great Awakenings, two revivals which swept England and the U.S. I believe that the experience of which Jesus spoke has to do with community and how we relate in community. I also believe that Jesus was not against doubt, and that questioning is an important part of one's relationship with God. I respect gumby's desire to spread the Word, but it is not why I am here on this site. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 23:47:49 (EST)
From: Father Mickey Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Father Mickey Subject: The Good, the Bad, the gumby. Message: And further more.... I see no problem with people questioning the idea of Jesus' divinity, with the teachings of the church, or even with the existence of God because these are all honest questions with which we all deal with everyday. My reading of the gospel message is that God loves us and that we are to love one another. This is very difficult and I can't claim to love everyone, but I think that it is important to try. I also think it is important to remember that God loves us even though we may feel unloveable or unworthy of love. I find the words attributed to Jesus in the latter half of the 25th chapter of the gospel according to Matthew to be the words I use to guide my life and my ministry: when we feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, visit the prisoner and welcome the stranger, we do this also to Jesus. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 06, 1998 at 00:53:55 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Father Mickey Subject: The Good, the Bad, the gumby. Message: Hi Michael - I was wondering how you felt about Jesus' divinity. It is one of the things in the Christian church that I can't accept. I can accept Jesus as a teacher, and accept his words and teachings as being inspired by god (or a higher power as I prefer to think of it), but I just don't believe that Jesus was actually the son of god. I'd be interested in what you think about this, but can also understand if you don't want to discuss it on the forum! Fondly, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 23:03:13 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Poetic Message: I just wanted to share this with you. When I was a teenager my mum gave me this quote to hang on my wall 'The moving finger writes and having writ moves on Nor all thy piety nor wit shall lure it back to cancel half a line Nor all thy tears wash out a word of it' Wonder why I still remember it word for word? Can't remember who it's by but it's not Kahlil Gibran. Anyway this came to mind because I was thinking I have an opportunity on this Forum, by writing rather than talking, to examine everything I say before I post it and thus I hope I never offend or hurt anyone by thoughtless words! Isn't that ridiculous - but that's the spirit of how I feel, anyway. I know a lot of stuff I am writing could be easily attacked and it hasn't been. I guess that Queen of the World stuff I wrote about is pretty personal and not something M ever promised me directly. For me it is part of that 'finally all your wishes will come true' stuff which goes with concepts of absolutes and perfection such as knowledge seems to promise. Where did I get the idea that once you give it all up you can have it all? If I had given it all up and then had nothing I think suicide would be on the cards. It was lucky for me that when I heard most of the really 'magical' stuff about M and K I was also seeing a therapist who helped me not give everything up. I mean if you think your immortal soul is on the line you would do anything, right? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 00:07:08 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jude Subject: Poetic Message: Jude: I suggest you avoid reading some of the verses that Nigel and Jim have apparently committed to memory word for word from their childhood. Not quite on the same level as yours. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 09:24:11 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat To: Jude Subject: Poetic Message: Hi Jude - I think, but am not sure, that the lines you posted are from the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayam (not spelled right, I'm sure!). If anyone knows better, please correct me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 13:56:12 (EST)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Katie Subject: Poetic Message: Correct on source (stanza 51) and almost correct on spelling, Katie. It's Omar Khayyam - at least in my edition. PS to Scott> The sentiments expressed in the Rubayat are no more lofty than those expressed in the 'worm food' post below. In many ways they are exactly the same, ie., embracing a cheerful fatalistic hedonism. Why all the saints and sages who discuss'd Of the two worlds so learnedly, are thrust Like foolish prophets forth; their words to scorn Are scatter'd, and their mouths are stopp'd with dust. Then to this earthen bowl I did adjourn My lip the secret well of life to learn: And lip to lip it murmur'd - 'While you live Drink! - for once dead you never shall return.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 14:25:26 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Poetic Message: Not to mention, Scott, that you got the wrong guy. Hrumph! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 20:12:12 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: My letter to Marc Levitt Message: When JM mentioned last week that Marc Levitt, a close servant of Maharaji's (I love that word, 'servant'!) was asking about the page and had mentioned my name in particular, I asked JM for Marc's email address and sent him the following: 'Marc, Hi. Jean-Michel posted a long note on the ex-premie page mentioning,amongst other things, that you were president of EV in France and that the two of you had a discussion recently about Maharaji in which you brought my name up. Is that so? Is there something I can help you with? As you must know, there are a number of people who used to follow Maharaji who are frustrated that he's never adequately addressed all that he put us through. I was a premie from April, 1973 until around 1981. Were you around then? Maharaji got me -- and anyone who'd listen -- to stop everything else and dedicate ourselves without reserve to his pronounced mission of spreading Knowledge worldwide. Crazy us, I guess you could say, we actually believed he knew what he was talking about. Well, we were young, right? Anyway, Maharaji does appear to be avoiding answering any questions at all about that period or anything else the least bit challenging. I guess the 'Perfect Master' is above accountability to mere mortals, huh? He sure acts that way. You know, the guy who turned me on to Maharaji, Dave Weiner, was an old teenage friend of mine. We went to summer camp together, dated the same girls, played guitar, were just kids, you know? How exciting, then, when Dave came back to Toronto after the summer of '72 and told me he had found a real live guru. And what a guru this was, huh? An actual teenage avatar, come with more power than ever before, promising to blast his devotees and the whole world in fact into some state of endless love and happiness. I had started reading 'Be Here Now' that summer but Ram Das' grab-bag recipe section of hatha yoga, chants and various meditation techniques was no match for the living satguru. So, I listened to satsang and got completely excited as only an 18 year-old can be when he thinks he's found the living Lord himself. Wow! I finally got knowledge the next spring and threw myself into Maharaji's 'arms' with abandon. I tried, at least, to take it all to heart. So,to make a long story short, about a year later, Dave, who was living,as was I, in the Vancouver ashram then, started complaining to me and a few others about his doubts. His 'mind' was challenging Maharaji's divinity and that was really freaking him out. Maybe it was the fact that Millenium had been a bust, maybe it was the family split or Maharaji's marriage. I didn't really want to explore that murky zone with him. What good would that have done? Mind is mind after all; we all knew that. So what I DID do was give Dave the best advice a faithful premie could give: meditate. Sound familiar? The next day Gary Ockendon, our community co-ordinator then, got the call and had to identify Dave's body. He'd hung himself in the stairwell of a local office building. Don't get me wrong, it's not as if that little outburst of mind slowed any of us down. In fact, I remember that I had a really nice meditation that night. Indeed, there were about 4 or 5 suicides in the Vancouver community back then. You can say what you want about any of these guys but I know Dave. Sorry, KNEW Dave. I knew him as a kid, I knew his family -- all good, middle-class people. No one can tell me that Dave was the slightest bit 'predisposed' to off himself. No, that would be simply wrong. Dave killed himself because he'd accepted a belief system that emphasized the unimaginable hell awaiting anyone who stopped believing in Guru Maharaj Ji. So now things are a little different, no? Maharaji's 'mellowed out' a bit, things aren't so intense. Hell, there's even room for his brother, Satpal, to pass himself off as the great avatar. Have you seen HIS web page? This whole thing's pretty funny, wouldn't you say? Well, I think tha common decency dictates that Maharaji take some responsibilty for all that he's put so many people through. What do YOU think? Sincerely, Jim' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 20:20:20 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: My letter to Marc Levitt Message: Dear Jim, Very articulate letter. I for one can't wait to see if he answers you in premie speak or you get a well thought out response! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 22:24:23 (EST)
From: Paula Email: None To: Robyn Subject: My letter to Marc Levitt Message: What happened to you Robyn? You used to be very good on guessing! of course this guy will answer in 'premie speak'! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 04:38:45 (EST)
From: JM Email: None To: Paula Subject: Paula, did you read my messg? Message: Hi Paula, did you read my message related to revolution in s america? do you have more details or rumors by any chance? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:58:34 (EST)
From: Paula Email: None To: JM Subject: Paula, did you read my messg? Message: No, I did not.... I wish I had time to read all posts (an patience to look at the dictionary all the words I don't know)...some nights I just check a few posts... where is it?? dont tell me it is right above!!!!! hehehhehe Maybe I can help on something....I will be glad to. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 22:29:24 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Robyn Subject: meld with the light? Message: Jim, I didn't know that you lost a friend to suicide. I am very sorry to learn about your loss. Did anyone in the premie community tell you that your friend had 'gone to meld with that which he loved' or any of that other hooey? That's what I was told about my friend. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 22:39:12 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: VP Subject: meld with the light? Message: VP: I've never understood this phrase. Isn't 'meld' something you do in pinochle? It always reminded me of my dad saying 'I meld,' as he throws his cards down on the table. I mean, there's something incongruous about it. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 22:46:10 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: meld with the light? Message: Doesn't the fact that it's incongurous make it perfect for premie-speak? I always think of sculpture when I think of the word meld because I am combining 'weld' and 'melt' in my mind. I'll bet you that is the same thing those premies were doing with the word. Scary. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 02:09:57 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: VP Subject: meld with the light? Message: VP, Thanks for asking but no, nobody held my hand. You see, even though Dave and I were friends before Knowledge, we weren't exactly 'friends' in the ashram. You've got to understand, good premies had no friends. Honestly. Real good premies were just servants back then. Yes, we all felt a lot of love for each other (and we really did, I'm not being facetious) but it was the love of looking into each others' eyes for glimpses of Maharaji. No point accentuating 'Jimness' or 'Daveness'. You know all that chit-chatting Chris enjoys about guitars? A premie in 1974 wouldn't be caught dead talking like that. I recall at least one time when Maharaji chastized a band at a program for 'getting into it' just a little too much. Our lives weren't ours, our worldly memories were thick, darp drapes of maya. Families? Opportunities to share satsang. Girlfriends? Tests. So, where was I? Oh yeah, when Dave came to me the day before he hung himself I was washing trucks at the place I worked as a delivery guy. It was a Saturday, I was the only one there. I was the publications guy for western Canada which menat that I could take all these English Divine Times to work and gobble them up. The English were putting these things out at least once a week, breathless updates on the Lord's rapid progress towards his stated goal. 'Hey, did you hear that George Harrison's married to a premie and is going to satsang?' (Actually, we lost him to the Hare Krishna's.) 'Hey, you won't believe who was seen at satsang in Los Angeles!' I swear to God, we thought the whole fucking world was getting ready to completely prostrate at his Holy Lotus Feet. So Dave came by. I knew he'd been having some difficulty. He was so serious. I was in a pretty 'strong' premie phase then, full of excited devotion. I'd wake up in the morning and actually pranam to mahatma Tejeshwaranand on my way out the door. (I didn't find out until years later that he was fucking a virtual harem he'd set up in his own private ashram, having moved the rest of the ashram premies into the main house.) I'd talk to Maharaji in the early spring blossoms perfuming the crisp Vancouver air. He was everywhere and there was no room for doubt. Doubting would be like whispering about him right in front of him; you see, a good premie understood that Maharaji never left. Dave came by. He'd travelled with another mahatma for a bit, had spent some time with Mata Ji in India when all the premies went over in '72 (maybe we're talking an afternoon or something. Every moment counted when you believed in darshan.) I guess he'd been 'high' then, but by spring '74 he'd lost his steam a bit. Hey, give the guy a break, eh? He was only 21, maybe even just 20. Dave told me what he'd been telling a few people, that he was really feeling some heavy 'mind'. He'd allude to doubts about Maharaji but nobody needed or wanted any details. The problem was plain as day and so was the solution: Dave wasn't meditating. VP, we're talking second by second. The razor's edge! So I gave Dave some satsang. In fact, I was probably a little short with him. I mean what was the problem anyway? Maharaji was here, the world was going to melt and we had the holy name. Give me a break already. Dave 'uh-huh, uh-huh'ed' and nodded at all the right places. God, just now I can remember the forced heavy breathing desparate premies would do when they were trying to force the 'word' through. Dave was almost hyper-ventilating as he tried to 'catch a wave'. After a while he left and I can't remember thinking much else about it. Here's something I might have thought -- I might have thought what a great premie I was turning into. After all, here I was giving remedial satsang to the very guy who'd turned me onto Knowledge. Oh, thank you Maharaji. So, when Dave died it was just like the mind had struck hard, that's all. No one had to tell me anything, I knew the score. We all did. Like I say, satsang was rich and poignant that night. The next day, though, there was a moment when I talked with Gary O., our community co-ordinator,a little more like regular people. Gary was a really friendly kind of guy. Everyone liked him, including Maharaji who evenutally made him a bigshot. I told Gary that if only I'd known maybe what I should have done is take Dave camping or something. Gary just said 'yeah'. It didn't go much further. I think we both knew that what I was really talking about was a compromise with the mind and neither of us felt too comfortable about that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 04:52:01 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jim Subject: About premies suicide Message: I also know quite some premies in France who've also killed themselves, even recently. These people obviously had personal problems they couldn't cope with. I knew some of them more or less, and spoke with them enough to have some understanding of what happened to them. I've also talked about it with some of their good friends: it's very obvious that they've been very disappointed by maharaji, EV, some premies. They obviously expected more than they got from knowledge, and couldn't imagine any way out of it. They've heard so much that the only solution is 'practice', and as they didn't get anything from it, that meant they were 'bad premies'. What was thern left for them? Meditation is fine if you like it, but the kind of philosophy Mr Rawat is promoting is a destructive one. As long as he won't be a mere meditation teacher (I doubt his capacity in that field anyway), he must be considered a dangerous person IMHO. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 08:35:01 (EST)
From: jude Email: None To: Jim Subject: meld with the light? Message: 'Here's something I might have thought -- I might have thought what a great premie I was turning into. After all, here I was giving remedial satsang to the very guy who'd turned me onto Knowledge.' Jim I just feel like saying I feel you blame yourself for not knowing that your friend was going to do that. After I read your post I found myself feeling sad about your friend. I was suicidal when I was badly depressed (I thought a lot about doing it) and my therapist told me 'it's your life'. Mental illness is what makes people commit suicide, that's how I see it. When you have mental illness, you realise that other people cannot see it or know that you have it or how you feel except a trained psychiatrist. You don't even think the way other people think - you don't perceive things at all in the same way. How can even someone really close to you help you when they can't understand what you are thinking or how you are feeling. In retrospect you may be able to understand why he did it. ( Was that what got you away from it?) I am absolutely stunned reading this material about poverty, chastity etc and the ashrams. I had no idea. I spent a long time regretting that I had wasted most of my life because I hadn't gone to listen to M when he came here in the 70's and I was about 17. It was about that time I had my first LSD trip and the door was opened for me to gradually become a drug addict. I lost half of my 20's and most of my 30's to being in a drug-induced coma. (I didn't use heroin - I smoked dope like there was no tomorrow) After I got clean/sober/unstoned and I realised I was not going to get my youth back - that was savage. In fact some drug addicts they say it's almost not worth them getting clean because there is nothing inside of them (they are just a shell - probably why that word freaked me out) I felt that M gave me back my heart/soul by simply reminding me it is there. Probably not in your circles, but there is so much darkness and so many people who do not feel their heart or soul at all. I am very grateful to you for telling this experience. It seems to me you tried to help your friend the best way you knew how. I have a problem with being appropriate with people and boundaries and intimacy and all that shit...so I hope I haven't offended you by speaking here but I was thinking that you wouldn't post your message if you didn't want replies. I really appreciated what you have said. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 11:27:23 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: jude Subject: Maharaji's catechism Message: Jude, Don't worry about it. You're right, I consider Dave's story 'public domain' at this point. I don't agree that I really blame myself, though. Honestly, I don't feel that way; I understand too well the strength of the mind lock we were all living in. Most people DIDN'T give up so irreversably and, as long as we didn't, we accepted Maharaji's promise that we were 'growing' in Knowledge. It worked like this: If you were having a good time doing satsang, service and meditation, it was because Knowledge was beautiful, Bhole Shri... If you were having a bad time doing satsang, service and meditation, it was because Knowledge was really powerful and was working on you profoundly, Bhole Shri.... Now, if you were having a good time but were 'spacing out', i.e. doing anything BUT S,S & M, it was because your mind was tricking you into thinking you were having a good time. In 'reality' you were miserable, oh please Maharaji, save me.. If you were having a bad time 'spacing out' it was because your heart was calling you, such is the grace, Bhole Shri.... Isn't that what Catholics call a catechism? I feel that I was undeniably useless in the circumstances. Well, obviously I was. But I don't feel guilt. Maybe, quite frankly, I might have if I had turned Dave onto Knowledge, but it was the other way around and I feel that I was just playing out the only role I knew. The other thing, Jude: I cannot accept that Dave suffered from 'mental illness' distinct from his guru troubles. See, I wnt to be fair about this. Elaine and Nigel killed themselves too in Vancouver back then. Nigel jumped off the Lion's Gate bridge. Elaine took pills I think (I'd just been transferred out of town). Both of them were really sensitive people. Who knows who they would have fared irrespective of Knowledge. And thee were others too whom I never really knew. There was the guy who jumped off a balcony here in Victoria. Thee was wheel-chair bound Greg who gassed himself. I can't say for sure about any of these. But Dave was not the least bit unbalanced as far as I could see. You might ask, 'how do you know?' Well, look at any friend. You can't say that they're all possibly 'ill', the term makes no sense when used so loosely. The other thing, don't forget, is that Maharaji's program was a literal mind-fuck! The whole idea was to make us believe we weren't ourselves and that we had to become, indeed wanted nothing more than to become, empty vessels for Maharaji. That was bound to screw a few people up, no? Gotta go to work. Talk to you later. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 14:01:19 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim and Jude -- suicide Message: Very true, Jim. I knew a guy, Greg Dickey, who received knowledge in my knowledge session who also committed suicide. He hung himself in 1975. I also don't believe you can say that premies who killed themselves were just 'mentally ill.' Honestly, I may not be the paragon of mental health, but I felt very suicidal as a premie in the early 80s. I felt absolutely stagnated and not up to the task of total dedication, which BM was demanding in every satsang at the time. I had also been in Miami and saw what a corrupt organization BM was running and how he didn't care about the premies. On top of that, I saw a lot of abuse of premies by people BM had put in power. Those 'doubts,' which were, in reality, just my own values coming through based on my own personal observations, had to be repressed to remain a premie. As someone mentioned recently, repression leads to depression, and depression can lead to suicidal ideation, and maybe actual suicide. Now, I was fortunate and didn't kill myself. Maybe I was too much of a chicken. But the pain was great enough that I thought about it a lot and I felt better knowing that I could, if I really wanted to, end the pain by dying. That's when I resigned from being a community coordinator, went out and got a job and started associating with non-premies. I really think that saved my life. I also left being a premie out of a feeling that I had to do it for self preservation. And I entirely blame what Jim calls BM's 'mind fuck' for causing those feelings. BM basically proscribed a path of repression and that is unhealthy for human beings. And I think he's still doing it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 15:06:39 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: JW Subject: Jim and Jude -- suicide Message: I tried suicide once, after leaving GMJ. Fortunately I only managed to take a nap, waking up with a terrible headache. That's when I started to get interested in Bucky Fuller. He describes his own suicidal experience, and why it was never carried out. He decided that a lot of people had invested a lot of love in him, and to commit suicide without attempting to justify that investment was like betraying a trust. Besides, he reasoned, he might not be replaceable. There was no way to know for sure. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 15:11:22 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Scott T. Subject: Jim and Jude -- suicide Message: Dear Scott, Glad you only took a nap and not your life! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 14:15:11 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: meld with the light? Message: You know, Jim, I never really thought of premie families as purely an opportunity for Satsang, but you are right. That is exactly how I was treated-as an opportunity (actually, I still am, but to a much lesser extent. Things seem to be more watered down these days.) I guess that is why I got that hand holding stuff. It was just a little more Satsang. Sigh. I am even more disappointed to hear this than to hear that M is a fake. I really loved these people and to them I was just an opportunity. I am blown away by that post. Thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 14:21:42 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: VP Subject: meld with the light? Message: I guess as a good ex I should say 'my pleasure to ruin your day!' This is dismal business! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 14:33:25 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: perception shift Message: It's like the day I learned what color was. I was blown away by the fact that I wasn't wearing a red shirt. It was just a bunch of chemicals that absorbed some light rays and reflected others. My eyes perceived a color. Sometimes we just have to learn to see things in a different way and it takes a good teacher to help us. It doesn't mean my day is wrecked. I learned something. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 14:43:07 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: VP & Jim Subject: meld with the light? Message: Dear Jim, I know it was a long time ago but I just want to add my voice of saddness for all those who thought they'd be better off dead than going on not fulfilling their LORD's wishes. Also I think some of your passion on the forum comes from them and trying to keep their numbers from growing now. Robyn Dear VP, I think it would be safe to say that even though those people in your youth may have seen you as an opportunity, I really believe they saw that for you because they loved you and that you were much more than an opportunity to them. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 14:52:19 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Robyn Subject: meld with the light? Message: To Robyn: Thanks for the sentiment. I don't want to be fake about this, you know. The point that really gets emotional for me isn't so much a feeling for those already dead. They're gone and I accepted that a long time ago. But when I tuned back into Maharaji a couple of years ago and really appreciated that there's no middle ground, no room for 'misunderstanding', that he really was selling a fraudulent bill of goods, and then see how dedicated he appears to be to never, ever answer for that.... my emotion is probably best described as self-righteous frustration. I just have to think that if I were in his shoes I'd simply have to act differently. To VP: The more premies believed the whole Hindu trip about 'this world' being illusory, the more we were able to dismiss someone's personality as a cloud. If your friends were super into the trip years ago, they well might ahve thought of you like that. To them you would have been just another sample of Guru-Maharaj-Ji-in-a-bottle waiting to come out. I can't say how that would have changed over the years. I'm sure it has to the extent that they now accept that, in some nominal way at least, their own personalities are real. Then again, maybe they don't think that. Why don't you ask them? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 15:10:28 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: meld with the light? Message: Great idea, Jim, except that the only one I could get an honest answer out of committed suicide. This is also the only one whose opinion would have mattered to me anyway. I am sure this person loved me for the 7 or 8 years before Maharaji so that is worth something. I do agree that during the time of the intense M years though, I was M in a bottle. I was always being told how, 'beautiful' I was. I think I am and that's what matters anyway-hey, I'm humble, too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 15:28:15 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: VP Subject: which meaning? Message: 1. meld (mèld) Games. verb melded, melding, melds verb, transitive To declare or display (a card or combination of cards in a hand) for inclusion in one's score in various card games, such as pinochle. verb, intransitive To present a meld. noun A combination of cards to be declared for a score. [Probably German melden, to announce, from Middle High German, from Old High German meldon.] 2. meld (mèld) verb melded, melding, melds verb, transitive To cause to merge: 'a professional position that seemed to meld all his training' (Art Jahnke). verb, intransitive To become merged. noun A blend or merger: 'a meld of diverse ethnic stocks' (Kenneth L. Woodward). [Perhaps blend of MELT and WELD2.] Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 15:37:18 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Maybe the word's 'felled' Message: Or maybe 'selled'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 15:56:35 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: which meaning? Message: The 'to merge' one fits. The dead person is merging with the light. Well, actually they aren't, according to the new dogma. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 15:58:44 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: VP Subject: to VP Message: Dear VP - Obviously no one can know for sure, but I would bet that the person you loved who committed suicide also loved you, and didn't just view you as a potential premie. They may have viewed this love as a worldly attachment that M wanted them to get rid of, but who cares. WHen I was a premie, I tried to get my friends and family to receive knowledge because then I believed that they would be 'saved'. I think Jude wrote about this below, also about the attachment thing - it brought back a lot of old feelings for me. My sister and I received knowledge around the same time as a lot of our friends - I would say about 15 people. We had a lot of friends that we met when we were premies as well. Guess which bunch of friends we are still friends with? (If anyone can't guess, it's the ones we knew before we were premies!) We are still in touch with almost all these people, too (one of the exceptions being the one person who still goes to programs!). Just some thoughts for you to consider - Fondly, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 12:03:06 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Is the Web esp slow today? Message: Has anyone noticed that the Net is especially slow today, or is it just my ISP? I'm on a college ISP and it's close to finals, so it might just be a case of undergraduate end of semester panic. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 12:15:38 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Scott T. Subject: Is the Web esp slow today? Message: Dear Scott, Mine is just fine, it probably is just exams week. It is nice to be in the middle of all that flying dander and be like the eye in the hurricane! No pressure on me! Robyn It would be so much eaisier to talk to you if you were just in my foot! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 12:35:52 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Is the Web esp slow today? Message: Robyn: It would be so much eaisier to talk to you if you were just in my foot! It would be getting pretty crowded in there. Reminds me of a midnight sauna at Breitenbush Hotsprings. About forty or fifty buck necked people crowded into a 160 degree steambath about he size of a small kitchenette. You couldn't even see your hand in front of your face, so clearly had no idea who or what you were rubbing against. I wouldn't call it sensual exactly. More like the last few seconds on the deck of the Titanic. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 12:58:40 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Scott T. Subject: Is the Web esp slow today? Message: Dear Scott, I would reserve my entire left foot for you but you'll have to get small first if you can pull that off before you are a spirit like Ray and Clementine! Your story about the hot tub reminds me of a similar but less paniced experience I had at a winter solstice party. These people have a well established summer solstice, pie festivle and thought they'd expand. They have a nice steam room, don't remember exactly if it a steam bath or what. The man who built it spent time in Sweden and coming out of the steam bath and throwing yourself into the snow bank. The woman had the first session and the men sent kids down to tell us when our 2 hours, or whatever, were up. None of us could leave we were so comfortable. Eventually the men just came down and we all got naked and enjoyed together. Nothing sexual here either just community and fun. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 16:36:37 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Is the Web esp slow today? Message: I'm getting in just fine. I haven't had one problem since Brian got us out of Paradise. I also wanted to comment on how much more I have enjoyed the forum sans a few certain premie personalities. I like reading the new people who are coming around here lately and enjoy these discussions on Dawkins, God, infinity and other stuff off of topic, too. The confrontational quality that the forum had for a while is missing lately. It's nice and I don't think it's boring. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 20:26:12 (EST)
From: Cheddary Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Scott T. Subject: Is the Web esp slow today? Message: It was very slow in the morning (EST) which is afternoon over here in England. I was connected via telnet to a mainframe in Maryland which is usually very fast. So certainly from Maryland it was very, very slow. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 20:29:09 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Cheddary Subject: Is the Web esp slow today? Message: Dear Velvetta, Is that main frame in Maryaland at a college? Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 20:41:22 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Is the Web esp slow today? Message: David and Robyn: It sounds like the slowdown was either regional (eastern US) in the local netplex (around the DC, NOVA, MD area) or it was a matter of final exams. It was very slow this morning, but is now pretty good. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 09:35:32 (EST)
From: Cheesed off Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Robyn Subject: My fast connection Message: It's Maryland's Public Information Network which I connect to in order to get a fast connection to the web. If I connect via IE to some US sites it's ridiculously slow. For instance the forum on IE takes ages to download the message index over here. That's why I telnet to a US site which uses Lynx. There telnet address in case you're interested is sailor.lib.md.us and you login as 'guest'. Joy will know why I'm cheesed off today. Still the same old problem. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 11:09:21 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: New Yorker? What New Yorker? Message: Just in case you're wondering, I called the New Yorker last week and they told me that the article on Maharaji is no longer currently slated to run in any particular issue. That means not for the next month at least. It's not 'dead' yet but..... Yeah right. It's starting to look like it well might be. Maharaji, if you're reading this, you can relax a bit on that one. But watch for People's retrospective of gurus of the seventies. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 18:13:12 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: Jim Subject: New Yorker? What New Yorker? Message: Jim, What's your email address. Gotta picture for you. eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 19:03:44 (EST)
From: JW Email: joger02@aol.com To: Jim Subject: New Yorker? What New Yorker? Message: It sounds like it's pretty dead to me. This is kind of a drag, considering all the back and forth work with Kurt. Oh, well, guess I will continue to read the magazine. I thought the article they did on that Arianna Huffington in one of the April issues was worth the price of a year's subscription. What did they call her -- 'the Spice Girl of politics'? BTW-- Jim, did you say you sent me a video? What video? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 19:12:31 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: New Yorker? What New Yorker? Message: I sent the greatest video on earth to JW, Brian and Katie, each of whom promised me that they'd copy it in turn for anyone interested. They should each get their copies over the next few days. I think we'll be hearing from them. -g. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 19:18:18 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: New Yorker? What New Yorker? Message: Thank you Jim, although I recall making no such promise. However, I would be glad to copy it if anyone is interested in whatever the greatest video on earth is. Can't wait to see it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 20:56:23 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: JW Subject: New Yorker? What New Yorker? Message: It has to be that one where he whacked David Smith in the nose with a two-by-four. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 05:25:22 (EST)
From: mg Email: None To: Jim Subject: New Yorker? What New Yorker? Message: He is going to make it a book. my guess. He comes here and he sees a bigger story. my guess. He has decided to not do a fluff piece but try and help his brother and sister seriously. my guess. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 08:59:31 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Jim Subject: New Yorker? What New Yorker? Message: Jim I'm sure you know this but I heard M say he employs someone to keep him out of the press. I'm sure this doesn't relate to the New Yorker articles, but come to think of it, how does someone keep someone else out of the press? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 11:32:45 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jude Subject: New Yorker? What New Yorker? Message: To mg: No, the magazine's in control, not Kurt Anderson the author. I know, I've talked with them. They just have a tendency to sit on a lot of stuff at the New Yorker. This peice is one of them. (Interesting specualtion, though.) To Jude: I don't think M was telling the truth there. Otherwise, both Kurt and Leslie from People would have been directed to that person and neither was. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 04:23:39 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: jmkahn@hol.fr To: Everyone Subject: About revolution Message: Hi guys, I’ve been thinking a bit about those people opposing and resisting to BM during this week end. A few things came back to my mind : 1/ the 3rd (or 4th, can’t remember exactly, does it really matter ?) time BM came to France, twas in 74 I guess, he had a public conference. I was there. He received tomatoes and eggs ! I tell you he wasn’t expecting this, and was a bit pissed off I suppose. He spoke for a few minutes only, as the guys throwing eggs were quite a bunch, and security couldn’t do much about it. He didn’t show up for a while after that. What’s funny about it, is that one of these guys finally received k, and is still involved in EV ! And member (or head ?) of the PR staff here in France..... (He might be reading this - hello JM !) 2/ Premies got very pissed after M and EV a few years back in South America, might very well be Venezuela or Brazil, I’m not sure. They’ve almost started a revolution there, and BM didn’t show up there for a while. I’ve heard several rumors about it, and some comments from M himself, difficult to know what happened exactly. What happened (more or less) : M once had a program there, and he wasn’t satisfied at all with his own accommodation : indecent hotel and venues for the program, nothing fitting his standards. He got very pissed off. I assume he had a meeting with the local organizers, and told them what he wanted. As a result, EV had to rent quite expensive halls and equipment for the next conference, and the registering fees (for premies) raised to 100 or 200 US$ for each individual. (Programs used to be quite cheap before, they used to rent cheap venues, as people there were not very rich there.) As a result, the majority of premies got pissed, didn’t register for the event, I don’t know if these people came or not. They expressed their discontentment, it looks like one instructor started to give out the techniques freely, outside the EV system. In other words, they’ve started a revolution. And the BM didn’t show up there for quite a while after that. It looks like the situation is still more or less the same there, and Rawat very pissed. Anybody having details ? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:53:24 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Jean-Michel Subject: About revolution Message: Dear JM, Good morning, US time. I email Paula who lives in one of the countries you mentioned. She does well with English but sometimes has difficulty reading some posts. She may have information for you but I suggest you use her name in the subject field. Hope this help. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 10:19:11 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Robyn Subject: About revolution: more Message: What would be great is that everybody hears about this stuff! And specially premies! BM is not very proud of this of course, very embarassed I guess.... I heard only rumors about it, it's very likely because of this that M doesn't have any event in La Tierra anymore, would be fun to have some facts, don't you think so ? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 12:23:07 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Overture to a broken wind Message: JM: This reminded me of Saul Alinsky. In 'Rules for Radicals' he talks about taking advantage of the underclass' secret desire to defecate on the upper class. He organized an action in Buffalo against Eastman Kodak (before it became employee-owned). A large number of union members obtained seats in the first two rows of a posh classical concert heavily attended by the company's management and owners. Before going to the concert the union people all ate the equivalent of about 2 quarts of baked beans. They then sauntered down the aisle to the front-row seats and proceeded to drown out the concert. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 12:28:00 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Scott T. Subject: Overture to a broken wind Message: Dear Scott, and all, Who was that musician who worked for Kodack? I can't remember what band, Rush, Boston...help. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 11:24:59 (EST)
From: Cheesy Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jean-Michel Subject: About revolution Message: Thanks for that fascinating info, Jean-Michel. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 03, 1998 at 22:13:46 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Everyone Subject: El Nino? Message: Re: the Dawkins discussions and my post about the environment, etc. Why I am talking about all this stuff is that where I live, we recently had the hottest summer, that has gone on for so long - it has been scary. It has finally started to rain but previously there has been a big drought. It came home to me just in the past few months that if there is no rain (for instance), we just die. All of us - cars/planes/jets won't take us anywhere. I mean, it has become very immediate to me and I don't really believe we/scientiests know whether the hole in the ozone etc issues are really urgent now or not - or that science can predict what will happen if we continue on the same path. I mean arent' all the scientists employed by cosmetic laboratories? (sorry) I'd like to believe it is El Nino but in my gut I don't think it is (just a recurring phenomena). I am wanting to talk about it - other people I have discussed it with also have a sense of unease. If I can take the good things I have gained from M, one of them is to take joy in my life. Life being a vital factor. Any comments? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 01:19:29 (EST)
From: Paula Email: None To: Jude Subject: El Nino? Message: The problem is not the scientists working on cosmetics. The real problem is Governments and industries. There is not enough laws to protect earth in many countries, and, many industries don't care about environment, because their target is money. It is very sad, but, the only way out of this is public opinion. Once people start getting conscious about environment, governments would protect better the earth. There is some efforts by some countries/governments, of course. Australia and USA are very good on it. But, for example, countries as France or Germany and most of the 3rd world countries does not care about it. Scientists do not have power to do anything. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:08:52 (EST)
From: Bill Cooper Email: None To: Paula Subject: El Nino? Message: It`s basically all down to us as individuals, its probably never going to happen at any other level untill its too late like war for example. We all have to think globally but act locally.The Scientific American article on oil supplies this month made depressing reading, but all we can do is to use our cars sensibly. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 09:25:29 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.cm To: Paula Subject: El Nino? Message: Dear Jude, Paula, et al, Paula and I have discussed this through email but even though the US does more than most countries I still think it doesn't do enough and so my consern for other countries, Russia, Mexico, etc really scares me. I was a Geography/Environmental major in college and found it hard not to feel an overwhelming sense of foreboding for this earth. There is a theory called the Gya Theory that states the that man may make man and many/all other life forms extinct but the earth will not die. It may take eons to heal but the earth will heal itself and begin anew. That theory gives me some peace. I think man and white man in general have made of botch of things. White men as a generalization with many exceptions has disregarded other peoples and the earth in pursuit of the almighty dollar and I find it a very sad commentary. I think the efforts made on the earth's behalf are to little, to late. I hope to become a regestered hydrologist so I can do something to help the earth and hopefully it isn't to late. I am just afraid it is. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:34:31 (EST)
From: David of Cheddar Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jude Subject: El Nino? Message: Don't worry about this panic about a greenhouse effect. The temperature variations on this world are as normal. They've recently taken core samples of the Antartic ice and have come to the above conclusion. We seem to heat up and then cool down again every few hundred years anyway. In the time of King Henry VIII, England was a much warmer place than it is now. Tropical fruits were grown in Kent without the use of greenhouses. Then a few hundred years later in the 1700s, England was a much colder place than it is today. We know this because the river Thames froze over every winter and they used to hold ice fairs on the frozen river. And talking about the greenhouse effect again. If the carbon dioxide levels increase in the atmosphere then that is very good for the plant life of the world. Plants grow faster and larger with increased atmospheric carbon dioxide. By the way; most of the world's oxygen does not come from land based plant life but from ocean plankton. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 09:37:45 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: David of Cheddar Subject: El Nino? Message: Dear David, In my first post for this thread, I was refering to all types of pollution not really focusing on changing temps which is true that they change but I think modern man has put so many systems, dams, residence along water channels that we are not so able to evolve and change with natures changing climates. I was thinking more of industrial waste disposal, including nuclear waste. I believe we have no right to have produced this waste in the first place, not knowing what was going to be done with it. I saw a special on nuclear waste dumping in Russia. The stuff was just let out into the nearby river and the locals were not informed at all, still irrigating, watering livestock and people etc. It was done as an experiment on the people in the town as all other nearby villages were evacuated. Still that water had much more far reaching effects. As far as your information about the source of the world's oxygen supply. It is also of dire consiquences in my mind as we are also polluting our oceans. We actually dump toxic waste and garbage into the ocean thinking... it is so big, I actually had a professor in college use that logic in a class. Can you just picture me in that situation. I gave him HELL! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 11:17:32 (EST)
From: Cheddary Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Robyn Subject: El Nino? Message: Nuclear science is in its infancy. There's nothing wrong with the science but governments and Nuclear companies have made a lot of mistakes. A similar thing happened during the industrial revolution with all the out of control polution. Once the nuclear scientists get their fusion reactor together, I think we'll be thanking them for saving humanity from a power vacuum. Oil and coal will run out and so will natural gas. The future is in nuclear fuel. A fusion reactor, though beyond our capabilities now, will provide almost unlimited power with very little waste. Perhaps they'll invent it just as the oil runs out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 13:17:28 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Cheddary Subject: El Nino? Message: Yes, I do hope the nuclear scientists get their act together. I'm sure the people around Three Mile Island and Chernoybl feel the same way. There hasn't been a nuclear reactor built in the US in a good 25 years and no plans to build any either. My utility built one at Diablo Canyon in the early 70s which produces some of the most expensive power in the world. Another problem with nuclear reactors is what do you do with the nuclear waste? You know, the stuff that is radioactive at a lethal level for hundreds of thousands of years? The US government wants to build a waste storage facility in the Ward Valley in Southern California, within the watershed of the Colorado River, and in an earthquake fault zone. It would require burying waste that will be radioactive for thousands of years in pits that no one can guarantee won't leak. Not a good idea in my view. The answer isn't nuclear energy. The answer is conservation and renewable energy like solar and wind power. The answer is also, in my opinion, getting off the treadmill of increasing consumption of junk that people don't need and focus more on the quality of life. Unfortunately, I think there has to be a major ecological disaster before a real effort in that direction will happen. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 13:24:50 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: JW Subject: El Nino? Message: Dear JW, In school we were told about that nuclear waste dump site at the fault in CA and there were also other 'candidate' sites in other states. Do you know if the CA site was chosen for sure over the others? As I said earlier, this should never have happened. It is so white male, ugh! To create all the waste with NO IDEA how to deal with it. Also, David the Cheddar man, you didn't mention anything about the oceans conserning the plankton as a main source of oxygen. Do you find what I said at all disturbing? Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 12:59:37 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: David of Cheddar Subject: El Nino? Message: David, there are hardly any reputable scientists who don't now concede that global warming through the emission of greenhouse gases, caused by man, is occurring, and it is occurring faster than was predicted. There is some disagreement on the results, but the most likely scenarios include flooding of many low-lying coutries like Bangladesh and the loss of some island communities due to rising sea levels as the polar ice caps melt, and changes in weather patterns, the effects of which is difficult to determine. Some farming regions are likely to become deserts, and some regions may become usable for agriculture. There is likely to be a increase in destructive storms, something we have already seen occur. The problem is that the world's population is distributed based on current patterns, so increased poverty and starvation may well occur in some areas, due to global warming, as well as the displacement of large populations. The big problem is that we won't likely know what the results will be until they are actually happening, at which point it will be impossible to do anything about them. They could be catastrophic. There is no evidence that temperatures have ever risen so much in such a short period. In past millenia, when temperature changes occurred, the results were dramatic, with the extinction of species and the like. But those changes were smaller and occurred over a much longer period of time. But we do know the results will likely be dramatic. Even warming the planet by one or two degrees would have dramatic effects, disastrous in some areas. As you said, there are natural variations in temperature, but nothing like what is predicted for the next 100 years or so. The ten hottest summers history of weather records have occurred in the last 20 years. The US has been dragging its feet on a global agreement on reducing greenhouse gas emissions. The Europeans are actually ahead of us on this. And since the US is the largest producer of greenhouse gases, it is the major cause of the problem. As half the US seems to be purchasing and driving SUVs, things don't appear to be getting much better, either. It is something to be worried about. It is something we sould be paying attention to. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 14:12:52 (EST)
From: Cheddarman Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: JW Subject: El Nino? Message: Hey JW and Robyn, why don't I start a forum called ex-ecologists and then you can pitch in to all of us ecological sceptics on it. I agree with some of your points, particularly your comments about America dragging its feet. Here in Britain 90% of our petrol costs is tax which goes to the goverment. I think we have the most expensive petrol in the world! I agree that renueable energy sources are preferable but how many people are going to wait for the sun to shine before they drive their solar powered car? Likewise, people would soon start complaining once the countryside was filled with windmills. Nuclear 'fusion' as opposed to 'fission' would be a source of energy that produced hardly any toxic waste. Fission reactors are not the answer, I agree. After watching a TV programme about the Antarctic and the core samples there I remain deeply sceptical about any global warming disaster. These core samples were taken recently and show that the melting of polar ice caps is a regular occurance. Sure the sea is rising in the Southern Hemisphere but I believe it's a natural phenomenon. Certainly the scientists taking the core samples were undecided about whether it was just another regular warm up or a man made warm up. The most immediate danger to us is the depletion of the ozone layer caused by industrial CFCs. Already the incidence of skin cancer is rising in proportion. Sunbathing is no longer a healthy thing to do. Regarding all the plankton in the sea, Robyn, the seas a big place so what does it matter - there's plenty of it. Sorry Robyn, I'm just winding you up. I agree that the plankton must be monitored and protected very carefully. A plankton depletion could have very serious consequences. OK, we get all this together and then a dirty great asteroid hits us! But that's life. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 15:01:40 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Cheddarman Subject: El Nino? Message: Yes, here in the US we have some of the cheapest gas in the world. It just encourages use of fossil fuels that contribute to global warming and air pollution. [Although gasoline prices are up to 20% higher in northern CA than in southern CA. Now, why is that?] And, yes, electric cars are part of the solution. It is mandated that 6% of car sales must be 'zero emissions' by 2000 in California. I'm seeing both GM and Honda electric cars in my neighorhood. That is really more for the benefit of Los Angeles and its air quality, buy it benefits the ozone layer as well. They drive about 100 miles without re-charging. Perfect for running errands around town. Obviously, land-use planning is also important. People living near where they work and so forth -- Higher density in cities and more public transit. And maybe better and cleaner nuclear energy might be part of the solution, although it appears to be a long way off. Again, it is hard to separate natural and man-made phenomena during short periods, but overall, I don't think you'll get much scientific agreement with you that global warming isn't occurring due to depletion of the ozone layer and that unless the rate is slowed down, the results will be dramatic. And, again, warming and cooling patterns are natural, but this is new and different. This change is bigger and faster. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 20:10:37 (EST)
From: Cheddarman Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: JW Subject: El Nino? Message: Electric cars are fine except that they run off mains electricity and that only means more power stations belching out greenhouse gases. Just moves the polution somewhere else. I'd like to give you one example about why I'm so sceptical about global warming. Dotted about the earth there are a lot of weather stations that have been there for around a hundred years. They have looked at the mean temperatures recorded in these weather stations and have found that the mean temperature has risen very slightly since the beginning of the century. Now at first glance this would seem to indicate global warming. Not so. One of the reasons why the mean tempuratures have risen at these weather stations is due to the urbanisation of the enviroment surrounding the weather stations. When the weather stations were built, they were in the middle of the countryside, for the most part. I mean, all these weather stations are is a Stevenson screen and a windmill. As the century has progressed more and more of these weather stations have found themselves surrounded by houses, factories and general buildings where there was once just countryside. Everyone knows that urban areas are warmer than rural areas and since the weather stations have remained in the same place an increase in mean temperature has been shown due to local urban warmth. The satelite data on mean temperatures would be more accurate but it only goes back about twenty years. Not enough for a definite conclusion. That's why I consider the Antartic core samples to be of such importance. I'd better finish now otherwise I'll have to join a weather forum but you know, if you get an Englishman on the subject of the weather - well, need I say more. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 20:27:53 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Cheddarman Subject: El Nino? Message: Dear Ched, Paula told me in her country they have cars running on Alcohool (the spelling was different as in a brand name, this is not it though). I have heard of it, here anyway I think they made it with corn. I really don't know about how it works and saves on pollution. Do you or JW know anything about that? There are scientist that argue back and forth about greenhouse gases and the ozone layer. While in college we had a 3 day seminar on global warming with a number of speakers all of which stood firmly on one side or other of the issue but there was no agreement. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 20:55:22 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Cheddarman Subject: El Nino? Message: Electric cars are a solution, depending on the source of electricity. In California, power plants depend more heavily on hydroelectric and solar power, and also on natural gas, which either emit not greenhouse gases, or emit less than gasoline-powered cars. And there's no reason not to be skeptical about global warming, I mean it MIGHT not occur and we would be very fortunate. But, as I mentioned, then it will be too late. Although temperatures have risen only a couple of degrees on average this century, the problem is that the rate is accelerating. Can you imagine when one billion Chinese start driving cars? We have seen only the beginning. Most of the Industrialized countries agree that global warming is a serious problem, otherwise they wouldn't have bother to enter into that agreement in Japan this past year, which will cost certain industries quite a bit of money. It makes a lot of sense to do what can be done to mitigate the acceleration to allow more data to be collected as well. Even in that treaty, the most than can be hoped is that the industrialized countries will reduce emissionw to 1990 levels in the next ten years. The developing world isn't even required to do anything. And it's quite likely the US Congress won't even approve the treaty anyway. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 20:27:35 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: JW Subject: El Nino? Message: Interesting to read about the electric cars already coming into use there. After all how many people in their daily lives travel more than 100k a day. So it wouldn't even be inconvenient. I wonder are they expensive? What do you think about the Bill Gates idea? I mean, the guy is so rich what does he do with the money? Maybe just a few big entrepreneurs and 'non polluting' products especially cars could take off as fast as PC's and the internet has, don't you think? They just have to become the next best thing and change could happen really fast. The growth and spread of stuff like the internet and the commercialism of everything shows the same effect could work with other new technology - it just has to be cool and available. I saw a film about that US cartoonist Robert Crumb (one famous early work is the cover of 'Cheap Thrills'). They filmed a typical street scenario where he lives. Urban decay. He was moving to 'an obscure village' in France to escape the consumeristic society he can't stand any more (he said why does everyone wear ads on their t shirts - don't they even question what's behind the commercialism?) I think most average people are trusting that the powers that be are looking after everything for them. And that they're not. However, if there's money to be made... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 21:00:21 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jude Subject: El Nino? Message: Another example of urban planning is that in Berkeley (hardly your typical city, although often what gets enacted there is done elsewhere, like the banning of styrofoam packaging in fast food restaurants) the city council just approved an apartment building downtown that will have a certain percentage of the units set aside for low-cost housing, in a very expensive city when it comes to rents. Anyhow, as part of the deal, the developer has agreed to provide 10 electric cars available to the residents for short errands around town. Also, I understand the bottom floor of the building will house GAIA Books, which is about the most popular bookstore in Berkeley. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 22:12:20 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: This I want to watch Message: the city council just approved an apartment building downtown that will have a certain percentage of the units set aside for low-cost housing, in a very expensive city when it comes to rents. Joe, This is interesting. Are we going to have mothers that scold their kids if they hit the ghetto floor button on the elevator? Cops arguing that they had probable cause because, after all, the suspect lived on the 2nd floor? Will kids from that floor get in shit if they're found roaming around the upper hallways? This will be interesting, an urban layer cake. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 00:06:59 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: This I want to watch Message: Huh? In the Bay Area, which has the highest housing costs in the whole country, requiring a certain percentage of lower cost units has been common for years in order for a developer to be able to build a building. They are nothing new and work quite well, actually, they've been happening for a good 20 years. They are not segregated by floor and there are no 'ghetto' units. You know Jim, the non-rich can actually be quite presentable people and sometimes really worth associating with, sometimes it is even quite pleasant to live in the same neighborhoods with them. And we are not talking about Section 8 people either. I think you can make as much as $40,000 a year to qualify for the 'low cost' units. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 14:04:56 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: JW Subject: This I want to watch Message: Dear Joe, I was a recipient of Section 8 housing maybe one year before and while I was in college. It was a big part of my being able to go to college thus reducing my already small income. During my time in college it was also a great help as it gave us good, safe, clean housing at little to no expense. I always appreciated that my children didn't have to be embarrased about where they lived. I have always lived in decent places, Section 8 or no, but I would not have been able to while on the meger work study income I recieved along with food stamps and refunds on maxed out student loans. I wrote the local HUD office a thank you note when I graduated, I was truly gratful to them. This job I have that ends in August is a funded by a HUD grant so I guess I owe them for that too! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 14:09:14 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Is that like Area 51? Message: This Section 8 thing... oh never mind. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 14:45:00 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Jim Subject: Is that like Area 51? Message: Dear Jim, What is Area 51? Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 14:55:02 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Is that like Area 51? Message: Area 51 is where Maharaji trained his intiators. I'm surprised you never heard of it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 15:10:14 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@ To: Jim Subject: Is that like Area 51? Message: Dear Jim, I was getting, slowly away, right about the time some non-Indian mahatma's were begining to come on. I moved away and only went to programs, I no longer lived near premies and started jumping out of the loop. Robyn Section 8 housing, if you don't know what that is, is government subsidized housing. They paid all of my rent while I was in school and part of during the summers while I was working full time. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 15:24:12 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Is that like Area 51? Message: Robyn, Sorry, I was just kidding. Area 51 is a little patch of desert north-east of L.A. where UFO afficianados believe the government engages in top secret dalliances with ET's. Some loops aren't worth being in. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:50:15 (EST)
From: Mickey the Berkeley Guy Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: JW Subject: El Nino? Message: Berkeley Rules!! I thought that Cody's was the most popular bookstore in Berkeley. My women friends have told me to stay out of GAIA because it is for women, not goofy priests. My wife and daughters like that store. But seriously, Joe, I thought Cody's was THE bookstore in Berkeley. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 19:58:33 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Mickey the Berkeley Guy Subject: Cody's/Berkeley Message: Okay, okay, maybe GAIA is just ONE of the most popular bookstores in Berkeley. Personally I have never been in GAIA, but I can spend hours and hours in Cody's which is perhaps the MOST incredible bookstore in the age of Borders and Barnes & Noble. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 20:36:34 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Mickey the Berkeley Guy Subject: El Nino? Message: I'll be in Berkeley May 21-24 to attend my brothers graduation and hang out. Whats a good place not to miss? CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 21:02:16 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: El Nino? Message: Hey, why not take each other to lunch? I'd love to join you but I've got a trial in Powell River. (I really do work, you know. Not tah today's an example of anything but a pure forum day.) Signing off for now. B'day party for my g.f.'s kid (legal drinking age!) and band practise. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 23:12:05 (EST)
From: Mickey the Berkeley Guy Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: CD Subject: El Nino? Message: What time are you doing family things, and at what time will you be wandering about? That will be one crazy weekend for me, but I might be able to do something on Saturday. E-mail me and we can talk and figure out what you want to see in this crazy town. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 21:42:17 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: David of Cheddar Subject: El Nino? Message: David: You've just given the oil companies' side of things. That version is not exactly unbiased. On the other hand, neither is the environmentalists' version (or the 'human ecology movement' to be more precise). Each has their yardstick, which they regard as definitive. There is also some truth to the observation that the scientific studies are dominated by industry, because that's who can afford to commission them. This compels the ecologists to take what studies they can produce, but also to try to couch arguments in non-scientific terms. I think there is a majority, of not a consensus, that you can't rule out a green house effect. This is a case where you have to guard against 'beta' error. If there is no greenhouse effect and we act as though there is it will probably depress the economy, and there will be some civil unrest over the distribution of resources, etc. because the size of the pie is no longer increasing relative to population growth. That would be an 'alpha' error. Not pleasant, but we'd probably survive as a species. On the other hand, if there is a greenhouse effect and we act as though there isn't, that would constitute a 'beta' error. We'll be done for some time in the next century. Things will go critical before they become urgent. There may or may not be anything to worry about, but if there is and we don't act then the price is really really steep. On the other hand, the end of the world, or at least the stage when things get really unpleasant, will more or less coincide with the end of my natural lifespan anyway, so... what, me worry? -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 12:28:06 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Reincarnation! Message: Scott, the end of 'this' lifetime yes, but you'll be back, I'll bet you any amount of money. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 09:34:19 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Jude Subject: El Nino? Message: Hi Jude - I'm about to go to work, but just wanted to say add this to the thread! My husband and I are both scientists and we both work on environmentally related issues (I don't want to say exactly what on the forum, but it is not a big secret). We work in the public sector - not for a private company. We don't work on global warming issues because that's not our area, but we know people that do. I think the jury is still our on global warming - is it happening or not? Some scientists who are quite knowledgeable about these things believe that it is happening. I do, too, even though I am not knowledgeable (I'm not a climatologist). I do think it's something that people need to be aware of - and I think Paula's right about nations being short-sighted in taking some measures that could help alleviate it. I used to have a very apocalyptic world-view. I received K when I was 16, and for a few years before that I hung around with various people who believed that the apocalypse was coming soon. It became very hard for me to think and plan for the future. Of course, getting involved with Maharaji didn't help my apocalyptic thinking at all - since his seventies satsang indicated that the apocalyse was coming as well. About ten years ago I realized that I was STILL thinking that the collapse of society as we know it was coming any day now - only more on an unconcious level - and that it was still influencing my decisions and actions. I had to make a concious decision to believe that there was going to be some sort of future. That did help me, even though I still worry about it some times. I am not sure if you have these same kind of feelings, but I thought I would mention it in case you did. Regards from Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 09:51:25 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Katie Subject: El Nino? Message: Thanks Katie and everyone for your input. Katie I was thinking last night about this new thing for me - this realisation that I don't have to keep practicing k. when it doesnt do for me what seems to have been promised. Especially reading about that I won't have rotting garbage in my head. I wondered what sort of a future I had been envisaging. Could I keep failing at my jobs, thinking that nothing mattered but m. and k., hoping for Grace in my life to solve my problems etc. A practical picture of the future doesn't seem to have been included. I will have to think about living without the guilt that somehow I am not good enough to get the rewards from k. that I thought others do. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 13:06:31 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Jude Subject: El Guru(?) Message: Hi Jude I guess I missed your starting to post here, unless you had been posting before I came on board, in January. I wanted to tell you what a freeing experience it has been for me to finally decide that I was not a premie and didn't want to be one ever again. No more events, no more telling myself I have to meditate if I don't want to. No more being with people who take more energy than they give. I have even gone back to school, something I put off forever. It's hard at times, I miss the pretend quick fix of the events, and walking around pretending M is really what he claims and that there is some kind of magic to his world of knowledge. But overall I prefer this new life. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 13:40:36 (EST)
From: Jude Email: anonymousreality@yahoo.com To: Selena Subject: El Guru(?) Message: Great to hear your experiences - very reassuring Yes El Guru could be a phenomena which is inexplicable (something to do with the direction of the wind currents) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 03, 1998 at 17:46:49 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: A Dawkins lecture Message: I was finding a good Dawkins link for Tarun, the guy with the Satpal (akak Bal Bhagwan Ji) page. I came up with this: Dawkins lecture I'd be interested in hearing what you guys think of him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 03, 1998 at 20:31:51 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: A Dawkins lecture Message: Jim: Have only read up to page 8 of the lecture, but I applaud his idea of 'science for the rest of us.' I don't think there's a chance of this happening as long as mathematics and science insist on the non-rational Euclidean language, and I don't see that changing for at least another 50 to 100 years.. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 03, 1998 at 21:27:08 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: A Dawkins lecture Message: Hope I'm not intruding on your discussion but would like to join in at my own level (knowing nothing....) I mentioned in an earlier post about seeing a great science/religion program on TV recently. It inspired me so much I wrote a short story including some of the material. Here is a grab of that '...I had stayed up late and watched a wonderful program about science and religion. Wonderful Doctor Pilkinghorne, a scientist and theologian, described the miracle that life on earth is. How many aeons it took before it came. How perfect everything had to be for it to come. How even the timing of the rate of collapse of the supernovae had to be exactly that, or life as we know it couldn't have been possible. Gravity, electromagnetism, the nuclear laws which govern the entire universe, had to be just that and nothing more or less to the slightest degree. And the sun just so near. And everything so brilliantly devised, so tailor-made, so perfect. Science knows that now. Knowing the odds against it, randomness seems out of the question. Totally out of it. So truly, in the billion billion galaxies, our universe, and all alone our earth, with rivers and fish and birds and animals and skies and clouds and rivers and oceans and flowers and insects and storms and wind and day and night...oh yes he knew that points to god. He said, our mind is in some unknown way connected to the universe. There is a similarity to the way our mind works and the way the universe works. Einstein said the most inexplicable thing about our universe is that it can be explained. Think about it. He also made this incredible point: new science has found that whenever an electron interacts with another electron, from then on they have the capacity to affect each other. If one is here and the other is on the other side of the moon and something happens to this one, it affects the one on the other side of the moon. He said the molecules in us have come from the dust of dead stars. In you and me. Next on the television news they were warning that Iraq may release anthrax into the world. One sugar bag of it can kill a huge city of people. Yesterday two schoolboys in America killed three of their friends and a teacher - they opened fire on their schoolmates after setting off a false fire alarm - they had an arsenal of automatic weapons - they were 11 and 13. I watched film of Chinese villagers rioting to protect the last four hundred white cranes in their sea marsh from a proposed plastics factory, an oil refinery, a chemical factory or a toxic nuclear waste plant. Officials said it would improve the standard of living in the area. And then the cameras raced to film a cult leader's disappointment when god did not appear on television. The collapse of the third world economies? Children shooting each other? Anthrax? The apocalypse, now? Flood, fire, famine, pestilence. Surely the horsemen were saddling up. All in my own lifetime. In one lifetime. And our master was talking all the while, teaching, spreading his wonderful message to the world...' I was still trying to integrate Maharaji's message (that it is inside of you) with my observations of the world....difficult stuff. I am now fitting together a whole lot of stuff which relates to my perception of the world as sick and corrupt and the fact that I (probably) have been devoting myself to a false master all this time. But truths remain truths, don't they? - whoever handles/mishandles it? (Read the Dawkins article but have no comments on it specifically) Regards.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 03, 1998 at 21:39:51 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jude Subject: A Dawkins lecture Message: Jude: Your piece is very well written. It would be difficult for me to comment on its content, since I am basically struggling with the same dilemma. I don't belive everythng happend by accident, but on the other hand if there was a design, why are things so crappy? -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 03, 1998 at 21:55:22 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: A Dawkins lecture Message: Yes I agree things are crappy. And pretty much in my/our lifetime as I said (the incredible pollution & physcial damage to the planet - endangering all life) (I wonder if young people really understand how fast it has all happened) One part of me thinks - well it's obvious we have these problems because they are too big for the world as a series of separate (competing) countries/economies to deal with - no persons or groups have been charged with the responsibility of defending people's rights to continue to exist....(and people think in terms of their own roles) So we just need to elect some, who represent the world's people as a collective and have more power than individual governments naiive huh? dangerous? the other thought is to write to B. Gates and say - hey, Bill, look how fast computers and the internet have been accepted into world society. Since you are so rich because of it, how about investing in non-petrol cars and new technology to reduce/reverse environment damage? It could take off if the timing is right (and maybe it is). And you could go down in history as the man who turned it all around. Likely? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 12:49:31 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Scott T. Subject: A Dawkins lecture Message: Dear Scott and Jude, First, Scott, maybe it was a bad or faulty design. Jude, I'd just like to agree with Scott that you are very well written. Don't worry about it, you have nothing to worry about. Scott is extremly intellegent and well read and he REMEMBERS so much, it astounds me! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 03, 1998 at 21:20:10 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: A Dawkins lecture Message: Jim: OK, I finished. Here are a few thoughts brushed off the top of my noggin. ' Young women don't take off their clothes and spontaneously morph themselves into wolves.' I might be able to change his mind about this, with a few simple introductions. In my experience it's unusual for them not to undergo this quaint transformation. 'It is possible that your car engine is driven by psychokinetic energy,' I'm glad he recognizes this possibility. I know that with a sufficient quantity of LSD (thanks to Jacques Sandoz) I can generate enough phsychokinetic energy to keep a 1966 Mustang running for 60 miles without a drop of gas in the tank. I could have kept it running longer, but had to waste a lot of energy maintianing the car's structural integrity, since it was wont to dissolve. 'At every stage of its geological apprenticeship, the DNA of a species has been honed and whittled, carved and rejigged by selection in a succession of environments. If only we could read the language, the DNA of tuna and starfish would have 'sea' written into the text. The DNA of moles and earthworms would spell 'underground'. Of course all the DNA would spell many other things as well. Shark and cheetah DNA would spell 'hunt', as well as separate messages about sea and land.' Why is he compelled to anthropomorphize natural selection in order to explain it? The urge to infer design intent (teleological action) is apparently irresistible. I wonder why? -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 03, 1998 at 21:38:12 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: A Dawkins lecture Message: Scott Thanks for your humour - I think I'm going to need some myself with my recent discovery of this whole new ballpark - the forum and its contents. A lot of information specifically referred to in this forum has been told to me by practicing premies in a pre-digested way, and told to me as if M had been continually refining his skills as a teacher/simplifying problems. The whole thing about the ashram was explained as if now - you don't have to change your life at all to practice knowledge - isn't it great that he dropped all the extraneous stuff? But I must admit I never thought about what impact that would have had on the premies, or the fact that he had consciously devised the whole structure in the first place. It's so important to get the history. When that starts being re-written then the new ones coming in are easily deceived - not shown the whole picture - as if the past doesn't exist. I am grateful for the whole discussion (I have been reading parts of the archives and will continue to do so) I feel completely sane and well, and not at all upset. I am just finding out things that not knowing has made me feel crazy. Thanks I realise I should have started a new thread - I will next time but I wanted to thank you for your humour Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 03, 1998 at 23:18:04 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jude Subject: Yes Message: No need for a new thread, Jude. I just wanted to say that your position here is so simple that, outside of the weird, whacky world of Maharaji's cult, it would go without saying. Of course the past matters; of course it's wrong to hide it from people. But you know how hard it is to get most premies to agree with that? It's almost as if Maharaji induces a certain obscurism directly at odds with seeing and calling it as it was or is. Like you have to choose -- romantic 'truth' with Maharaji and all his 'love' or 'worldly' truth which might be 'literally' correct but which doesn't promise any such love at all. Premies pride themselves on going for the love. A love based on deceit. Can you imagine that? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 03, 1998 at 23:45:42 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yes Message: A love based on deceit. Can you imagine that? You are 'shaking my tree' at the moment. Thank you for being so clear. I need this clarity. Currently I am ruminating about my own family (as mentioned in a recent post to another thread) and the similarity between my father in a way and M which this forum is revealing to me... Yet also there is also the paradox that my experience before receiving knowledge, in the presence of certain premies as well as m. - felt like I was sensing that 6th dimension someone mentioned earlier - (which I think they said science says is inherently real.) It felt like an uncrowded space, buzzing at a different vibration - it definitely felt like I was perceing something real but using another part of myself. I could 'smell' knowledge. So, is god-within always coated in shit? (hope that doesn't offend you). I remember in earlier days going to a Satyananda ashram and hearing a guy saying 'god is everywhere but is in some places more than in others'. naturally I found that strange logic. I hope I'm not going off the track. Deceit is a very difficult thing to deal with (for me). And to those questioning astrology, (which I was taught is just another set of symbols/framework to examine reality by)...the planet Neptune, which rules 'compassion and enlightenment' also rules 'illusion and deceit' Do there have to be two sides to every coin...i.e. the brighter the light the darker the shadow...is that some kind of law. I was blown out when a premie told me knowledge is, simply 'what is'. Years before I had been told by a 'channel' that my 'mission in life' was to find 'what is'. That sealed the deal for me. Hope there is something here you choose to answer me about - I hope I'm not just disgorging a lot of junk. Lately I have been trying to 'eat my own shadow'. I know for sure that is a way to heal depression... Well I have to go to work now...look forward to reading if you choose to reply.. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 01:26:30 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jude Subject: Yes Message: Jude: Do there have to be two sides to every coin...i.e. the brighter the light the darker the shadow...is that some kind of law. There is no such law, at least there is no physical analog. Light increases in intensity more or less w/o limit. Darkness reaches an absolute level rather quickly. Just go into a cave a few hundred feet. Besides, in a relational sense the brighter the light the less the darkness. I think what you are referring to is that old thing about good and evil, but although I don't know of such a thing as absolute evil I don't think they are related in the way your sentence suggests. Greater good does not require greater evil. It's more like Plato's allegory of the cave, where brightness can overwhelm so that the level of light to which you've become accustomed in the cave is no longer adequate. It's a matter of perception. Bright light makes the darkness seem greater. I like your phrase 'eat my shadow.' Could you explain that a little more? -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 06:39:02 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Yes Message: Yes Scott it's from a newish book I read recently (naturally - none of my ideas are original) I must have loaned it out as I can't locate it. It's called something like 'The Shadow' It's got some good stuff in it about mid life - myths and archetypes and also that concept of eating your own shadow to become whole - literally allowing yourself to see and accept all your own darkness, I think. I will find the name of the book for you. There were ideas like that the myth you have acted out in the first half of your life - in the second half you are almost obliged or forced to act out the opposite archetype. the one that I related to was The Fool - (in 1st half of my life) - not very materialistic, seeking 'beyond', maybe naiive this becomes of all things, someone who loves and values family in the 2nd half of life. Surprisingly I find this to be true for myself. All I long to do now, at 42 is settle down with some nice man (I never have - always wanted to be free). Another (female) example was Hera - the tender of the hearth (mother) who in later life (maybe due to divorce or husbands illness) has to go out and face the world. You get the picture Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 07:45:27 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Yes Message: By the way Scott thanks for the illuminating thoughts on light and dark I remembered the name of that book - it's called 'Romancing the Shadow' It's pretty lightweight really. A great book which found me recently and has switched on a few lights is called 'The Chosen Child Syndrome'. It's very good on family dynamics and emotional incest and pain and the roots of pain in the family. I feel that somehow this book paved the way for me to find this Forum and start thinking for myself again. Regards Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:01:26 (EST)
From: Bill Cooper Email: billnlynda@xtra.co.nz To: Jim Subject: A Dawkins lecture Message: Printed it out and I thought it made pretty good reading, I even thought I might use the material with some of my senior classes. I have found that since awakening from GM I have become a born again aethiest. It seems so difficult to believe that when your brain is worm meat that any part of you could survive. Incidentally just watched `Timothy Learys dead' in Dunedin as they have a fim festival on.,It consists of 85 minutes of Tim expousing his world view with flash back pictures and then the last ten minutes is shots of him dying and having his head cut of for cryogenical freezing. Suddenly seeing this head that for the last 80 minutes was dynamic and animated with personality be detached and plopped in a jar with dry ice was really unerving. Some nights at three in the morning I lie awake and the prospect of death and none existence becomes very real and frankly it scares the shit out of me and I cope by doing something very mundane like making a cup of tea and trying not to think about it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 05:29:57 (EST)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Bill Cooper Subject: Worm food Message: The worms crawl in And the worms crawl out The worms that crawl in Are pale and thin The worms that crawl out Are fat and stout Your eyes cave in And your teeth drop out Your brains come tumbling Down your snout Be merry, my friends! Be merry! (Trad. - to be found on The Pogues album 'If I should fall from grace with God'. Bill, I find a little black humour goes a long way towards alleviating one's atheistic extistential angst. Also, for me there is a paradox in ceasing to believe in an afterlife, ie, that 'being dead' is not an experience we will ever know. Thus, for as long as we're aware of anything, we must be alive - and if there is still some scope for the enjoyment of being alive, then, as the song says: Be merry, my friends! Be merry! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 15:23:28 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Worm food Message: Nigel, You take me back-haha! In the school yard, we sang it this way: The worms crawl in The worms crawl out The worms play tiddly-winks On your snout Your stomach turns a slimy green And pus comes out like whipping cream You slap this on a pice of bread That's what you eat when you are dead Your eyeballs fall out Your teeth decay And that's the end of a wonderful day! Children can be so brutally honest, can't they? BTW, I sat at a table next to Timothy Leary's table during dinner once. He had a couple of hot young blonde women with him, though he was in his 60's- conservative estimate. They were hanging on his every word. Now his head is in a jar? How unsettling. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 15:39:20 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: VP Subject: My Leary story Message: Sorry, I can't tell you. There's no way I'm putting this story -- absolutely true, by the way -- on the net. I'd have to be crazy. All I can say is that it was pretty incredible, it took place in L.A. a number of years ago and, well, if you want to know anymore you're going to have to ask him. Same goes for my John Lilly story too. Hey, I've been there! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 15:45:23 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: My Leary story Message: Man, I hate it when people do that- I got all excited and then-nothing. (Sort of like a Maharaji experience.) Besides, it's hard to ask a head in a jar anything. Come on and tell us, we all read that Millenium letter, after all. What could be more personal than that? That's as much as I am gonna beg. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 19:14:28 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: VP Subject: My Leary story Message: Well, I once talked to Timothy Leary in a health food store in Sausalito, California. I am not kidding you. I said hello and he said hello. Kind of mundane, actually and his head was still connected to his body at the time. I also saw Robert Redford in the same store (god, is he short) and also, Huey Lewis and I saw Peter Coyote in there a couple of times. He used to also go to my health club. I only recognized him when I heard his famous voice. The guy must do nothing but voice-overs and TV commercials. Now, this isn't boring, is it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 22:10:58 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: JW Subject: Drugs and name dropping Message: Well, I was expecting some kind of wild drug story from Jim about how he dropped LSD with Timothy or something. I did smoke pot in the Governor's mansion here once. That was the extent of my drug experience. It was more fun because it was such a naughty (and stupid!) place to do that. Most of the famous people I have seen in person are politicians-argh! Not too much fun to talk about. I could drop Bill Gate's name, but then I would have to explain this to Brian. (snicker) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 22:20:24 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: VP Subject: Drugs and name dropping Message: The better part of discretion cut me short but I can assure you, it had nothing whatsoever to do with drugs. What in the world gave you that idea? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 23:26:01 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: Drugs and name dropping Message: What would make me think about drugs? I think you are kidding me, right? Timothy Leary, for starters. Nothing about you that I know of makes me think of drugs, though. In fact when I think of what I know of the two of you, I am not sure what you would be doing together? Discretion can be a good thing, so don't go against your instincts on that one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 11:57:36 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Jim Subject: outside looking in Message: What the hell are you guys talking about? Also, what is the better part of discretion? Gossip? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 13:39:20 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: John Subject: outside looking in Message: Sorry, it's just one of those stories I'll share in person over a drink in the new Chit Chat Lounge at the Ex-Premie Convention Centre (i.e. Center) currently under construction. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 18:38:07 (EST)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: VP Subject: Worm food (2) Message: Ok, Veeps, do you remember this one, then? - Nobody loves me Everybody hates me I'm going down the garden to eat worms Long thin slimy ones Short fat fuzzy ones Gooey, gooey, gooey, gooey worms. Well the long thin slimy ones Slip down easily The short fat fuzzy ones stick When the short fat fuzzy ones Stick between your teeth All the juice goes sqrliiieeessch!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 21:58:26 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: nigel Subject: Worm food (2) Message: Nigel, That one was a personal favorite, but I never heard the second verse before (sheltered). I can't wait to teach that to my offspring :) Thanks, VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 07:12:33 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Bill Cooper Subject: A Dawkins lecture Message: Dear Bill You may like a film I saw last night called 'Under the Lighthouse Dancing.' I've felt like that a few times lately at 3 a.m. and nothing helps, does it (but tea is good). But after those times sometimes I find new things happen - like new awarenesses, a deeper feeling of acceptance inside. It's like I was being emptied out, dying and then being filled again Do you relate? I relate to your comment because I was driving home tonight on a very rainy, wet unfamiliar road. I was thinking I could easily die tonight. I wouldn't like to be physically hurt or mutilated but I found myself thinking the only important thing I ever needed to learn in my life is about love. If I can just stick around long enough to get what I came here then I will be complete and when the times comes, I will just go. After all, I came didn't I. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 11:14:20 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Jude Subject: 3am is very important Message: The most amazing unexplainable things have happened to me at 3am. I think being awake at 3am helps prepare me for death. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 12:56:06 (EST)
From: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: John Subject: The Moment of Death Message: I have heard that Maharaji has recently said that premies should think of him at the moment of death and they will be liberated, or something to that effect. The Chutzpah! I REALLY wish I had not heard that, because it makes me afraid that it'll actually happen to me, that I'll think about M at the moment of death precisely because I think I shouldn't and get trapped in some strange bardo of picking up pine needles from his driveway for all eternity (that's something we used to do at the Malibu residence). Human nature being what it is, remember how the old saying of 'Don't -- whatever you do -- think about pink elephants' will make you instantly think of pink elephants? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 13:58:32 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Joy Subject: The Moment of Death Message: That's absolutely hilarious, Joy. I can barely see the keys through my tears of laughter. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 05, 1998 at 17:02:26 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Joy Subject: Hopping along the bunny trail Message: Great, so now you've jinxed me! hmmmm, I really can't imagine that it makes a damned bit of difference what happens to be flitting through the brain when the curtain falls on 'this' life. Remember, think about sex and you will be doomed to come back as a jackrabbit in Arizona. But on second thought, what's so terrible about sex anyway? I can think of worse ways to spend a few years of eterntiy. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 11:35:42 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Bill Cooper Subject: A Dawkins lecture Message: Bill: That business about Leary having his head frozen was just incredible. Suppose there is a soul and the freezing traps it in the disembodied head for the next 500 years? Leary never could think straight. What a monumental dope! -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 13:18:46 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Bill Cooper Subject: 3am Message: Dear Bill, I think 3am can be a mystical time, if you aren't sleeping at that hour. I have had revelations in a half sleep kind of mind as well as at times of lucidity. I have also been able to be very creative at that hour. I haven't thought much about death and not at all at that hour. I think death is as scary as anything else we are looking at doing in our future that we haven't done yet. I am not afraid of dying unless it is violent. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 15:12:34 (EST)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jim Subject: A Dawkins lecture Message: Excellent link, Jim. Dawkins echoed my own sentiments exactly on science, the universe, the paranormal etc. (though his account demonstrates a more masterful use of prose than I could ever hope to master). Enjoyed too the Penn and Teller link. I owe an eternal debt of gratitude both to Dawkins for publishing The Blind Watchmaker about ten years back, and to the Divine Grace of Nobody Whatsoever for allowing that book to fall into my hands at exactly the moment I needed to read it. It was a real conversion experience. I am accordingly very defensive of Dawkins when people criticise him from a position of ignorance (which certainly happens around here from time to time). But the Dawkins' forte is, for me, as educator and essayist, rather than scientific theorist on genetics and evolution. When he writes on the philosophy of science, as he does here, I envy the simplicity and clarity of his expression. However, it is a very long time since Dawkins did any science of his own, and if you root around a bit, it is surprising the number of scientists from similar biological or related fields who have deep reservations about Dickie's theories. Not on any important point of fact; rather on his choice of emphasis, ie., his tendency to speak of selfish genes 'for' this or for that behaviour, whilst down-playing the role of environmental circumstances and culture upon an individual's development. Dawkins' problem, for me, is his tendency to describe and discuss natural selection as an idealized theoretical model, rather than draw his conclusions from hard evidence - as his hero Darwin would have done and his critics Rose, Gould and Lewontin (all important active scientists in their respective fields of neurochemistry, palaeontology and genetics) insist on doing. Here is RC Lewontin writing with some eloquence on the subject of genetic determinism: ...there is an extraordinary biological naivete and ignorance of the principles of developmental biology involved in assertions that genes make us behave in particular ways in particular circumstances. DNA functions in several ways in influencing the development of organisms. First the exact sequence of amino acids in our proteins is coded in our genes, but no one would suggest that the amino acid for a particular protein in itself can make us liberal or conservative. Second, genes influence when in the course of development and in which part of the body particular proteins are to be produced, and this in turn influences cell division and cell growth. So it might be claimed that there is a fixed pattern of neurons in our central nervous system, influenced by the turning on and off of genes during development, that makes us warlike or pacifist. However, this would require a theory of the development of the central nervous system that makes no allowances for developmental accidents and little or no role for the creation of mental structures by experience. Yet even the rudimentary social organization of ants, with their structure of work and interindividual relations that is so simple compared with ours, is very flexible with respect to information from the external world... ...itakes an enormous set of assumptions to suppose that the human central nervous system, with thousands of times more nervous connections than in an ant, has completely stereotyped and fixed genetic responses to circumstance. The incredible variety of human social circumstances would require an amount of DNA that we simply do not possess. There is enough human DNA to make about 250,000 genes. But that would be insufficient to determine the incredible complexity of human social oganization if it were coded in detail by specific neuronal connections. Once we admit that only the most general outlines of social behaviour could be genetically coded, then we must allow immense flexibility depending on particular circumstances. Food for thought... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 15:17:43 (EST)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co To: Nigel Subject: A Rose by any other name... Message: Have you checked out the home page where the Dawkins lecture comes from? It contains a 'live' debate between neo-Dawkinists Steven Pinker and his arch-critic (and my hero - well one of them) Steven Rose. http://www.edge.org/ The whole thing has added frisson as a result of the scathing review of Pinker's book by Rose in The New Scientist, which is still sitting there in cyberspace at: http://www.newscientist.com/sciencebooks/reviews/howthemindworks.html For me the icing on the cake is the fact that the debate is chaired by Dr Susan Blackmore, sceptical psychic investigator whose work I admire immensely, and whom I had the pleasure of meeting in person a couple of years back (as she never tires of telling people!) And here's a chance for me to repeat my gag: 'Clearly a rose by any other name would be no pinker.' Toodle-pip. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 15:29:30 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Nigel Subject: A Dawkins lecture Message: Nigel, Truth be know, I know so little about all this. I'm not a scientist and I'm not even a well-read amateur. I'm just familiar with about 15 to 20 books on the subject and hve actually only read about half of them. Well, I've read a bunch of articles, essays, interviews and dialogues too. So, I'm definitely going to read the debate which I haven't yet. I've read about a third of Pinker's book and find it persuasive but again, as a rank amateur, what do I know? Susan was over here about a month ago and she keeps rubbing my face in it. 'Paranormal?', she says, 'you wouldn't be able to recognize it, Heller, if it did exist!' I know she's only kidding but she can play pretty rough sometimes, don't you think? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 17:14:09 (EST)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jim Subject: The worst perm since Bon Jovi Message: Ok, so I was name-dropping. But - Hell - I only know about three people and not even their mothers have heard of them. BTW> Hasn't Steve Pinker got the worst perm since Bon Jovi? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 22:06:37 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Pinker looks Like Lenz Message: Don't you think he really looks like Frederick Lenz, the cult leader (Ramtha) who just died? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 03, 1998 at 11:46:49 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Ex-Premie.Org - Français Message: In keeping with Maharaji's agya to take this Knowledge to the World, the French flag now flies on our home page. The first French pages are now online, along with an accompanying French language forum. We can thank Jean-Michel for the long hours he's spent so far translating and formatting the pages. Please don't post in the other forum in any language other than French. We have this one for English posts, and the other one belongs to those French-speakers who have been left out up until now. Congratulations, Jean-Michel!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 03, 1998 at 11:53:24 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Brian Subject: Ex-Premie.Org - Français Message: Excellent! Wish I knew how to write that in French! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 03, 1998 at 20:08:00 (EST)
From: Paula Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Ex-Premie.Org - Français Message: Excellent?? C'est la memme chose.....excellent.... (it is the same thing) :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 16:47:07 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Brian Subject: Good work, JM Message: Hey JM, Good work translating all that stuff for the french page. It'll be interesting to see how many people partake. Maybe the forum won't be too attended, not at first anyway. Or maybe it will. I wonder how many french-speaking ex's are out there who can't or don't feel comfortable posting in english. Even if the forum doesn't get a lot of use to begin with, the page itself may prove really instrumental in some peoples' genesis (exodus?). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 17:21:59 (EST)
From: JM Email: None To: Jim Subject: Good work, JM Message: you know, like for myself it took me months to understand the value of the forum At first I've been reading all the pages of site, it took me time to figure out how to get all this information into my word processor then I gave a lot of it to friends I spent time reading the archives and finally followed the current discussions, etc Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 02, 1998 at 22:08:13 (EST)
From: Cheddar Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Everyone Subject: Let the debate begin, Jim!? Message: Jim, are you just going to let us go on about NDEs and OBEs and the like without you even raising your finger towards the keyboard? I was anticipating SOME comeback by now. Perhaps you're having a very pleasant weekend and this cyber place of the displaced and misplaced is just far, far away. As a fellow Scorpio you'll know that I'm very sceptical about astrology. But I believe in fairies and Father Christmas and I don't need any proof either. I just KNOW. And Maharaji is the Lord now, just like he always was and we have to get down on our knees and beg forgiveness from him and realise that our family and loved ones are of no importance because as the supreme Lord we are all dust at his feet etc etc... And what's more, Satpal is the other Lord of the Universe who we must humbly bow to and receive darshan from whenever possible. Also Bholay Ji is the Lord of music and we are greatly honoured to have him in our midst and our pathetic attempts at music are nothing compared to just one note played by such a virtuoso. Forget logic Jim. That's old hat. Just listen to those great souls, the premies and follow their divine instruction and trust in their superior wisdom. For they are Maharaji's shining beacons and every word they utter is the truth. I also believe in the 'Little People' and Leprechauns and believe that the Tarot is a true science. I have five spirit guides with me constantly, one of whom is Big Chief Standing Bare. Also I have the spirit of King Henry VIII in my right knee and Joan of Arc in my left knee. I am constantly visited by Plato who has become a good friend. I also have Elvis in my pelvis. By the way, since I regularly astral travel to other planets I am writing to NASA to offer them my services towards the manned Mars mission. All of this is the truth as I'm sure you'll agree. Yes? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 02, 1998 at 23:02:49 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Scorpio Cheddar Subject: Jim is a weenie Message: Dear David - the above is another supposed lure to get Jim to answer this post (Jim, I don't really think you are a weenie. At least most of the time... Anyway, answer this man, PLEASE!) I have to tell you that I'm still laughing, David. And if you really DO have Elvis in your pelvis, let's get it on video, please! Regards from Ms. K Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 02, 1998 at 23:36:47 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Cheddar Subject: What time did the pubs close? Message: David, By now you're probably safely asleep but I wonder, did you make it to your bed? Does it even matter, though? Isn't it great, by the way, about the question marks? Over here, we're just getting ready for our little Saturday night. Going to see No Means No, one of Victoria's world-famous punk bands. Old guys already, but outrageously powerful. Opening are the Skinless Franks. Apparently they're incredible too. Should be a good night for weenies! Hasta Manana. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 02, 1998 at 21:36:42 (EST)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: Off-topic - very funny website Message: Check this out: The Wit and Wisdom of Imelda Marcos. http://www.sirius.com/~sunny70/imelda.htm Sample: 'It is terribly important to do certain things, such as wear overembroidered dresses. After all, the mass follows class. Class never follows mass.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 03, 1998 at 02:31:21 (EST)
From: Paula Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Off-topic - very funny website Message: It is a very funny web-site..... how did you find it? Why did you look for Imelda Marcos? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 03, 1998 at 05:35:28 (EST)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Paula Subject: Off-topic - very funny website Message: In the UK there's a newspaper (The Guardian) which recommends some websites every Saturday, and it was in there this week. I don't think I would have found it otherwise Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 03, 1998 at 15:49:51 (EST)
From: Bill Cooper Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Off-topic - very funny website Message: So Scary, Some of it reminded me of early GM satsang for example, 'The truth is that, life is so beautiful and life is so prosperous and life is so full of potential and life has so much good in it that really, one should not have to sleep. I have no time to sleep. You only get boted if you are tired. And I only get bored and tired with ugliness, with negativism and evil and all of that. But as long as there's music, flowers, a nice person, a smile, a good deed... gosh! And at the end of the day, I start in the morning and I feel that we all have 1,000 energy. In my case,I see a beautiful flower, a beautiful program, a beautiful person, a beautiful smile, a beautiful child, by that time it's midnight. I'm just about ready to take off. I have a million energy, no longer 1,000. Everybody's falling apart and I cannot understand.' reminded me of the bullet guns. Bill Cooper Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 02, 1998 at 19:27:31 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Question Marks?? Yes! Message: I removed the code that deleted your basic punctuation from the message header fields (i.e. Subject) after fixing the Vacol Punctuation Bug. So you may now pose questions in the Subject field. Just don't expect any answers is all... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 02, 1998 at 20:16:57 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Brian Subject: Question Marks?? Yes! Message: The Still Crazy Dollar Sign Bug should also be fixed. So you should be able to add your $.02 worth again. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 04, 1998 at 13:10:54 (EST)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Brian Subject: Question Marks?? Yes! Message: Heh. Thanks a lot, Brian! -Still Return to Index -:- Top of Index |