Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 7 | |
From: May 8, 1998 |
To: May 19, 1998 |
Page: 2 Of: 5 |
Scott T. -:- Virus Alert -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 02:26:44 (EST) __Jim -:- Virus Alert -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 02:37:02 (EST) ____Scott T. -:- Virus Alert -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 02:45:19 (EST) ______Brian -:- Un-critical Thinking Alert -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 07:57:14 (EST) ________Scott T. -:- Un-critical Thinking Alert -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 11:04:56 (EST) __________Brian -:- Un-critical Thinking Alert -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 12:31:05 (EST) ____________Robyn -:- Un-critical Thinking Alert -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 12:40:04 (EST) ____________Scott T. -:- Virus Alert, false positive -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 13:50:01 (EST) ______________Jim -:- To Scott and Brian -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 13:57:39 (EST) ________________VP -:- To Scott and Brian -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 14:12:34 (EST) ________________Brian -:- Twice?? -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 15:22:27 (EST) ________________Rick -:- To Scott and Brian -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 16:24:44 (EST) ________Selena -:- Un-critical Thinking Alert -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 12:32:18 (EST) __________Jude -:- Un-critical Thinking Alert -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 22:10:06 (EST) ____________Katie -:- Un-critical Thinking Alert -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 22:20:56 (EST) ______________Selena -:- virus software -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 11:58:47 (EST) ________________Selena -:- Brian,sorry, I'll clarify this -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 12:33:20 (EST) __________________Brian -:- Brian,sorry, I'll clarify this -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 15:51:09 (EST) ____________________VP -:- Brian knows his shit -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 13:14:30 (EST) Brian -:- The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 19:54:35 (EST) __Jim -:- The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 20:26:13 (EST) __Selena -:- The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 21:03:33 (EST) ____Selena -:- worried about MJ -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 21:06:50 (EST) __Carol -:- The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 12:31:03 (EST) ____Selena -:- The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 12:42:14 (EST) ______Carol -:- The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 18:27:38 (EST) ____Robyn -:- The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 12:47:35 (EST) ______Carol -:- The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 18:03:09 (EST) ________Jim -:- Copyright nothing -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 18:18:10 (EST) ________Robyn -:- The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 20:00:20 (EST) __________Brian -:- The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 22:11:17 (EST) ____________eb -:- Ha ha ha ha ha -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 16:51:56 (EST) ______________Selena -:- Ha ha ha ha ha -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 18:02:25 (EST) __________Carol -:- The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 03:41:02 (EST) ____________Jude -:- The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 03:52:44 (EST) ______________Robyn -:- The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 10:19:26 (EST) ________________Selena -:- The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 12:06:52 (EST) __________________Jude -:- The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 12:17:09 (EST) ____________________Selena -:- could you handle it? -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 12:48:03 (EST) ______________________Hey Jude -:- could you handle it? -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 12:51:24 (EST) ______________________VP -:- could you handle it? -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 10:59:21 (EST) ______________Pajama man -:- What is a shell, Jude? -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 10:50:12 (EST) ________________Jude -:- What is a shell, Jude? -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 12:08:25 (EST) __________________Pajama Man -:- What is a shell, Jude? -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 10:23:26 (EST) ____________Robyn -:- The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 10:00:22 (EST) ______________VP -:- The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 10:53:31 (EST) ____Brian -:- The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 13:02:29 (EST) ____VP -:- The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 14:06:15 (EST) ______Robyn -:- Veep 3 Continents -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 15:15:45 (EST) ________VP -:- Veep 3 Continents -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 15:34:54 (EST) __________John -:- Try the library! -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 15:40:49 (EST) ____________VP -:- Try the library! -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 16:04:14 (EST) ______________john -:- how exciting! -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 16:07:04 (EST) ________________VP -:- how exciting! -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 16:08:24 (EST) ____________Katie -:- Three Continents and LOTU vid -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 17:13:56 (EST) __________Robyn -:- Veep 3 Continents -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 15:40:56 (EST) ______Carol -:- The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 17:38:15 (EST) ________Katie -:- Carol - 3 continents -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 18:51:22 (EST) __________Carol -:- Carol - 3 continents -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 19:38:56 (EST) ____________Katie -:- Carol - 3 continents -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 20:37:22 (EST) Selena the dog -:- Answer to Katie's question -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:08:55 (EST) __Jim -:- Selena, why do you need her? -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:14:46 (EST) ____Selena -:- Selena, why do you need her? -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:44:09 (EST) ______Brian -:- Selena, why do you need her? -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:25:28 (EST) ________Robyn -:- Selena, why do you need her? -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:40:52 (EST) ____Jude -:- Selena, why do you need her? -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:15:34 (EST) ______Jim -:- Selena, why do you need her? -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:24:15 (EST) ______Selena -:- Selena, why do you need her? -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:57:14 (EST) __Robyn -:- Answer to Katie's question -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:40:08 (EST) ____Time to walk el pero -:- Answer to Katie's question -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:55:48 (EST) ____Jude -:- Sighting the Site -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:47:05 (EST) ______Selena -:- Sighting the Site -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 17:21:17 (EST) ______Jude -:- Sighting My Self -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 17:28:12 (EST) ________Jim -:- Citing the site (to Jude) -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 18:58:30 (EST) __________Robyn -:- Jim -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 09:16:38 (EST) ________*>* event eyes -:- Sighting My Self -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 04:10:23 (EST) __________CD -:- Hi Bill -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 16:49:08 (EST) ____________Jim -:- For once, I agree, Chris -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 18:46:01 (EST) ____________*>* my new tag -:- Hi Bill -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 23:22:57 (EST) ______________VP -:- Hi Bill -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 23:53:46 (EST) ________________Katie -:- Hi Bill 'eyes' -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 00:52:55 (EST) __________________Robyn -:- gooey tapes -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 10:25:18 (EST) ____________________Sender of the goo -:- gooey tapes -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 12:03:57 (EST) ______________________Robyn -:- gooey tapes -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 13:21:38 (EST) ______________Jim -:- Thanks, Bill -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 09:05:50 (EST) ________________Robyn for Clem and Rob -:- Thanks, Bill -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 10:29:38 (EST) ______________Robyn -:- Hi Bill -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 10:21:51 (EST) ________Robyn -:- Sighting My Self -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 08:55:35 (EST) __________Jude -:- Sighting My Self -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 20:26:40 (EST) ____________Keith -:- Sighting My Self -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 02:54:12 (EST) ____________Carol -:- Sighting My Self -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 03:05:38 (EST) ______________Jude -:- Sighting My Self -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 04:04:45 (EST) ____________Robyn -:- Sighting My Self -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 11:49:49 (EST) ______Jim -:- Anti-M Cult -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 19:07:38 (EST) ________Jude -:- Anti-M Cult -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 02:40:23 (EST) ______Robyn -:- Sighting the Site -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 08:46:35 (EST) __Robyn -:- replacement gurus and dogs -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:34:38 (EST) __VP -:- Selena-off topic -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:00:26 (EST) ____doggy mommy -:- Selena-off topic -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:50:03 (EST) Jim -:- Upstream with Jack -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 13:28:28 (EST) __Gerry -:- One plus you forgot -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 13:55:45 (EST) ____Dog-ma -:- One plus you forgot -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:01:06 (EST) ______Gerry -:- One plus you forgot -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:33:02 (EST) ________Selena -:- One plus you forgot -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:36:30 (EST) __________John -:- plus or minus, that is the ? -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:55:43 (EST) __________Gerry -:- One plus you forgot -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:59:38 (EST) ____________Robyn -:- One plus you forgot -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:46:48 (EST) ____________Scott T. -:- Cycle OR, off topic -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 12:31:06 (EST) ______________JW -:- Cycle Iowa off topic -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 13:14:01 (EST) ________________Scott T. -:- Cycle Iowa off topic -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 15:52:14 (EST) __________________JW -:- Cycle Iowa off topic -- GEEZ -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 16:56:13 (EST) ________________Katie -:- Cycle Iowa off topic -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 17:16:48 (EST) __________________JW -:- Cycle Iowa off topic -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 17:41:39 (EST) ____________________Katie -:- Cycle Iowa off topic -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 18:56:06 (EST) ______________________JW -:- Cycle Iowa off topic -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 19:57:47 (EST) ________________________Katie -:- Cycle Iowa off topic -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 20:46:05 (EST) ______Robyn -:- One plus you forgot -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:39:28 (EST) __Jack -:- Upstream with Jack -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:36:23 (EST) ____Jim -:- Upstream with Jack -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:06:31 (EST) ______Robyn -:- Jim and Laurie -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:21:36 (EST) ________Jack -:- Jim and Laurie -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:49:55 (EST) __________Jim -:- Jim and Laurie -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 18:41:24 (EST) ____*>* b -:- streaming -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 04:55:32 (EST) __Jack -:- Upstream with Jack -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:01:58 (EST) ____Jim -:- Upstream with Jack -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:19:00 (EST) ______Jack -:- Upstream with Jack -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 17:12:15 (EST) ________Jim -:- Upstream with Jack -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 20:17:14 (EST) __________Jack -:- Upstream with Jack -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 21:10:57 (EST) ____Robyn -:- Jack -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:25:16 (EST) ____Jack -:- Yardstick -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:41:46 (EST) ______Jim -:- Sorry, that was me -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:42:59 (EST) ______Jack -:- Yardstick -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 17:15:18 (EST) ________Jim -:- Yardstick -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 20:15:41 (EST) ____Jack -:- Upstream with Jack -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:47:06 (EST) ______JW -:- The Parent Trap -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 18:25:23 (EST) ________Jack -:- The Parent Trap -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 20:50:22 (EST) __________dog-ma -:- The Parent Trap -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 21:18:32 (EST) __________JW -:- The Parent Trap -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 13:04:05 (EST) ____________Jack -:- The Parent Trap -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 16:47:43 (EST) Jim -:- Christian dogma (to gumby) -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 11:58:06 (EST) __dog-ma -:- Christian dogma (to gumby) -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 17:04:59 (EST) |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 02:26:44 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Virus Alert Message: I contracted a Word macro virus (WORD_Header.A) that looks like it might have come from one of Jim's posts. It showed up in a document I was using to cut and paste from the forum, and was also found in the 'Temporary Internet Files' cache under the title 'forum3(11).htm'. I suspect it probably came from one of the posts in the 'critical thinking' thread. I didn't know a macro virus could attach itself to a post, but just be sure you don't paste anything from that thread. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 02:37:02 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Virus Alert Message: Scott, What does this mean? I've never dealt with this before. Are you sure? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 02:45:19 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: Virus Alert Message: Jim: It seems a bit wierd that a virus could come from a post, but it definitely came from the forum, and got attached to the document I was using to post those replies in the 'critical thinking' thread. Since that's about my only activity today, I assumed it came from your post. Not 'proof positive' however. Macro Viruses are hard to remove, but not hard to detect. I just deleted everything twice, once into the recycled folder, then also deleted that file in 'recycled.' There are some anti-virus programs that remove macro viruses. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 07:57:14 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Scott T. Subject: Un-critical Thinking Alert Message: Scott - I don't read many posts about thinking. There's not much to say about it in my view. You either do think critically or you don't. You choose to use Microsoft products when there are perfectly useful (and reliable) alternatives available on the market. What they do to your computer is a local problem. You also choose to use a word processor to cut and paste from the forum. That the software you use creates files on your computer [forum3(11).htm] that it store its own problems in is also a local problem. That it gets its input from yet ANOTHER Microsoft product (IE) is also a local problem. When you post to the forum that your problem was caused by a post here, it becomes a global problem - and more importantly to me, mine. I went through this before with the scare over archive virus possibilities, and explained it then. It's up to you to educate yourself on how a Word macro-virus actually works. Your post required that I spend the morning reading up on them. It's your turn to do that now. Any 'virus' that would infect your word processor from reading posts here would have had to be contained in the text of the message. The virus itself would have been visible for people to see on their browser - there would have been gibberish characters imbedded in the message. Did you see anything like that? Yet you reached this conclusion? Here's what you posted previously: I contracted a Word macro virus (WORD_Header.A) that looks like it might have come from one of Jim's posts. looks like; might have Do you have any particular post in mind? It showed up in a document I was using to cut and paste from the forum, and was also found in the 'Temporary Internet Files' cache under the title 'forum3(11).htm'. M.S. Internet Exploder or M.S. Wierd created that file. It isn't on the site. I suspect it probably came from one of the posts in the 'critical thinking' thread. suspect; probably I didn't know a macro virus could attach itself to a post You don't know that now. Here's what you posted now: It seems a bit wierd that a virus could come from a post, but it definitely came from the forum, and got attached to the document I was using to post those replies in the 'critical thinking' thread. Since that's about my only activity today, I assumed it came from your post. Not 'proof positive' however. definitely came from the forum; assumed; not proof positive Which is it? about my only activity about? Is this an exact about, or just a sort-of about? Macro Viruses are hard to remove, but not hard to detect. So, detect the guilty post. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 11:04:56 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Brian Subject: Un-critical Thinking Alert Message: Brian: I use MS products because everyone else in my industry uses them, and I get complaints if I don't. There really are not any alternative products that I can use, 'perfectly good' or not. I've complained about this but it's not a high priority with anyone. The only evidence of documents that contained the virus are those that came indirectly from the forum (forum3(11).htm and the Word document I was using). In the latter case the virus was not detected until I tried to save the document. I assume that the forum3(11).htm was created from a post because it doesn't use the full 'html' extension. However, it might just be that IE automatically truncates the extension, so in that case the offending file was actually downloaded from the forum. I can't detect a virus on the forum itself, and I unfortunately deleted the cached file so don't know any more than that it contained a post from the forum w/o any of the background stuff. Apparently your information that I would have seen gibberish characters in the post is just not correct, and don't see why it would be, necessarily. The virus could have been embedded in the html. I reloaded all of the files from the 'critical thinking' thread and then ran the virus checker again (thinking that if the offending file was in the cache again I would detect it). I did not get a positive on the virus, so don't think it came from that thread. I made several posts to Keith's thread on K, M and jokes, one or two to Jude's 'don't fence me in' thread, and several to Selena's 'replacement guru' thread. However, I read a great number of threads and there is no reason why it mightn't have come from any one of them. Don't know why your are all over me about this. I guess if you're totally convinced it's a 'local problem' then next time I'll just keep my mouth shut. I'm sure Bill Gates has engineered his software to create viruses at random. It's like the theory of 'spontaneous generation,' only it's a Gates plot. Just like him to cause those kinds of problems for us. Sorry I wasn't more critical. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 12:31:05 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Scott T. Subject: Un-critical Thinking Alert Message: What am I supposed to do if you post that you definitely got a virus from reading the forum, but are extremely vague as to how you came to that conclusion? Call the fire department and tell them there is definitely a fire somewhere and hang up without telling them where. Think they'll get testy about it? There are currently 515 posts in the index. You claim that there is a problem with one of them that can impact readers. You're not sure which one. You're not even sure if there is a problem. If you were in my shoes would you be cavalier about the possibility? There's a lot I don't know, so I have to fill in the gaps as the needs arise. Before I can re-assure people that there is no problem I need to be certain. Can you feel any need to be certain before you yell fire? If these sort of problems can be introduced via web pages, I feel that the forum should trap for that. You say it can happen. Can you tell me what it looks like? As for Mr. Gates, I've spent MANY hours trying to make his software work on this platform - which he claims it was written for. His work is so shoddy that he has to have his browser identify itself as Netscape to web servers. He also sells word processors that don't even bother to check for the problems that they introduce to users computers! So, Microsoft provides a free utility to trap for the damage done by their word processor. I don't respect that sort of programming. As for the forum, there is nothing stopping people from sending me email about suspected problems. I include my address with every post. To post here that there definitely is a problem without knowing so is irresponsible as I see it. Especially when new readers, who know even less about how a virus works than either you or I, may become even more skittish about reading. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 12:40:04 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Brian Subject: Un-critical Thinking Alert Message: Dear Brian, Sorry to jump in here on an unrelated topic but are you on vacation? Just to let you know, if it matters, that when I read Scott's virus post I thought, as a person who know only enough about computers to be dangerous, that since I didn't use Word or macros whatever the problem was wouldn't effect my 'boss's' computer. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 13:50:01 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Brian Subject: Virus Alert, false positive Message: I finally got in touch with the tech support people at Touchstone. They said that Word macro viruses do not occur in files other than Word.doc files. This was probably a 'false report,' which apparently occurs from time to time. However, it was very consistent in that every time I did anything with the file I got an 'ugh-oh' message. It probably found some html code sequence that 'looked like' a string within a macro virus. I'm not sure how that string got transferred to my document when I cut and pasted the post contents, except that it must have been a very short sequence, or had some control character that doesn't show up in Word documents either. From now on I'll send send an email to Brian first, if I get a similar message. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 13:57:39 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: To Scott and Brian Message: Scott, I'm glad I don't have a virus. Brian, I'm glad we don't have a virus. Scott and Brian, Why can't we all just learn to get along with one another? Rodney King, 1993 No, seriously, I hope you guys aren't feeling any hard feeling at this point. Scott's warning was well-intended, I believe, but Brian's response was pretty understandable. It all makes sense from out here. I have to agree with Brian that this kinds of warnings are pretty alarming and should probably go to Brian first rather than to all and sundry. Yet, as a guy who put his foot in his mouth twice the other day, I know how we can all easily screw up a bit here; the medium's so immediate. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 14:12:34 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: To Scott and Brian Message: Nice post, Jim. To put it another way: Brian=ex=good Scott=ex=good Microsoft rules (wink wink ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 15:22:27 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Jim Subject: Twice?? Message: as a guy who put his foot in his mouth twice the other day, I know how we can all easily screw up a bit here Come on, Jim. You posted WAY more than that! [snicker] Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 16:24:44 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Jim Subject: To Scott and Brian Message: 1992 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 12:32:18 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Brian, Scott Subject: Un-critical Thinking Alert Message: I am pretty sure that the only way you can end up with the Word macro virus (WORD_Header.A) in a document is by using the Word program to create or edit the document (and I am pretty sure that even just pasting it in and then saving it is and edit, in this example) So, I seriously doubt that it came from the forum. I have seen this many times and helped people with it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 22:10:06 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Selena Subject: Un-critical Thinking Alert Message: Ok this is important to me because it occured to me to save internet time by cutting & pasting posts to MS word and then reading them. It would follow that I could compose my posts on word first and then cut & paste into Forum. This sounds like an unsafe practice? (even though I have a Norton anti-virus thingy I don't know much about this stuff). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 22:20:56 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Jude Subject: Un-critical Thinking Alert Message: Jude - We have discussed this on the forum before, and I am pretty sure it's safe. The reason that I say 'pretty sure' is cause I don't know much about viruses/software. I suggest that you e-mail Brian and ask (and then report back, if you don't mind). Thanks, Katie P.S. will take a week to copy video (and I just gave it to the photo store today). Will let you know when I send it. BTW, I got your mail - thanks! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 11:58:47 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Katie Subject: virus software Message: There is a virus protection software called Dr. Soloman that gets rid of the Word Macros virus. There most likely are others. I believe it is shareware, so you can download it. Try doing a yahoo or altavista search. You really can't get it from text posted straight to the forum.. using word to compose the text may infect the text, Katie, if anyone wants info on it, email me and I will give that info to you to pass on. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 12:33:20 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Selena Subject: Brian,sorry, I'll clarify this Message: Just another clarification on viruses. I wasn't clear enough when I said: I said 'using word to compose the text may infect the text,' What this means: If you compose text it word, and your word program is infected, then you save the document as a .doc file , and send it to someone via email as an attachment it's infected. Sending something as an attachment keeps all the word formatting and so therefore the virus too, since it's not a text file, it's a .doc or Word file. If you compose in word and then just copy and paste to a forum or anything else, the virus is NOT in the text because it's just text on a screen in both your pc and wherever it gets pasted. The virus can only live in the word codes. Straight text is not a problem and doesn't ever contain any viruses that I know of. Thanks Bill Gates for making life more confusing and giving us consulting types job security.. while flooding the market with inferior products we all have to use because your wonderful marketing has made them so popular.. If M hired Bill as a business manager we would all be in deep shit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 15:51:09 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Selena Subject: Brian,sorry, I'll clarify this Message: Thanks for the clarification, Selena. The question has arisen a couple of times, although last time it concerned zipped archives containing HTML documents. I'm sure we'll see it again. Not looking forward to it is all. The media makes a big deal out of virus spreading and sex on the net. Someone's gonna get rich selling new users great big ballons that fit over their computers some day... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 13:14:30 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jude, Brian Subject: Brian knows his shit Message: Jude, Don't feel too badly. I was the igoramous who brought this up the last time. I was told by someone in the computer industry to never never download anything off of the internet onto my computer. Several computer heads-of-state had a huge argument over this virus topic before my very eyes. The suits who agreed with Brian were the winners, BTW. Apparently Guru Brian Ji is the master of technical information. The biggest dogs agree with him. (Except about microsoft, of course) VP P.S.Brian, Where can I get one of those balloon-thingeys? More importantly, would you like to go into buisiness selling them:)? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 19:54:35 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts Message: Gawd, I love reading my email lately! I get the most bizarre stuff sent to me. Some would make good pages (if I could do it without exposing the sender). Other's I just pass on to you here. This came today from an ex. It's an excerpt from a 1970 DLM publication ('Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaj - Eternal is He, Eternal is His Knowledge'), and it explains where Shri Hans went after his last taste of Mata Ji's cooking. On 16 July 1966, Shri Maharaj Ji shed his mortal coil in Braham Muhoorta, at 3 am. The people were in a state of exteme dispair, losing themselves in an anguish of misery over the loss of their beloved Guru. To thousands on that day, the grief of the child left parentless was experienced. His followers felt adrift and anchorless without his presence amongst them. Just as we discard our garments when they are worn out and old and replace them with new ones, so did Maharaj Ji reject his aging body to change his outer form, passing into the frame of Sant Ji Maharaj. For Guru is the Holy Name, and this Name is immortal Death does not touch it, nor time destroy it. The body is the home of the divine and He simply left his old body to take up a new one. Guru never dies, He is immortal, all-permeating, divine. He lived, and lives, and will forever in the hearts of all. For the Guru always lives in the present. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 20:26:13 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Brian Subject: The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts Message: Brian, Don't you post most of the mail on your letters page? How much do you get, anyway? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 21:03:33 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Brian Subject: The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts Message: What is the Guru doing in Michael Jordan's shorts???? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 21:06:50 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: everyone Subject: worried about MJ Message: I mean, isn't Chicago playing tonite ? Won't the extra presence in the shorts be a handicap? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 12:31:03 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Brian Subject: The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts Message: OK, I admit sending this to Brian. I expected some jokes, but I'd like to lend a more serious tone to the message if I may. I read the whole 102 p. booklet. I bought it in India in '72. It's all about Shri Hans life and mission and beliefs, opposition to him, good works by his mission. There is a mission statement which emphasizes the spreading of the ultimate knowledge called Updesh, but which also included helping the poor, homeless, and sick. They had some hospitals and shelters and a school. He initiated women and all people across caste boundaries and held a universal view about all religions. He frequently quoted the Gita and the Bible. He also told people near the last year of his life that he was the highest incarnation of God. In my search to validate whether the knowledge was the real thing, I turned to reading the words of Jesus and re-reading the Bhagavad Gita. I could find the 'proof' I needed and so I accepted it all as truth. I was a ready believer because I wanted it so badly. What does this have to do with this site? Little Prempal was immersed in the beliefs of his father, his Guru and everyone around him. He believes in himself being the successor to his father whose only duty is to spread knowledge. How could he believe otherwise? It is continually reinforced by his premies and by the inner experience of knowledge. It was also taught by his father and those before him that Guru cannot be understood by anyone and is totally above and beyond judgement and criticism. It was the extreme sincerity and devotion of premies and Maharaji's self confidence that allowed me to blieve that the Lord came in the form of a child...a very wise child who attracted thousands. So I do not share the views of others here that Maharaji is a scam artist. He is doing his Guru's agya and proceeding forward changing things as he sees fit and never looking back, living in the present, the only place where truth can be. Because of that he is untouchable by our doubts and complaints.(I read Be Here Now, too). He has exorcised his father's spirit from his shorts. I would probably still be devoted if he had continued in his father's way. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 12:42:14 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Carol Subject: The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts Message: So, who won the game? Did the Guru's new residence help MJ play? Sorry Carol :) I have found your posts to be very intelligent and to tell you the truth, somewhat intimidating to me. I have spent a lot of my premie life on the fence, and didn't do the kind of serious work that you have done. So, forgive me if my response is banal. I do want to try to respond sincerely. I believe that 'little' Prem Pal may have been convinced, but it's hard for me to believe that at this point M still is convinced. I know he is worshipped and gets the reinforcement all the time, but how can he believe it? Why would he have drinking problems? Why would he not do something about the lack of any substance coming from his mission? It's been 25 years, that's a long time to live a life of serious luxury and turn a blind eye to the 'fruits' or lack thereof. I am not trying to invalidate your experience, I am just trying to understand this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 18:27:38 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Selena Subject: The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts Message: Selena, I think that it is very possible to spend a whole lifetime without changing your basic beliefs and certain aspects of your behavior, 25 years isn't so long. I've known people to be very set in their ways, especially the more religiously-fanatical they are! It just depends how closed-minded to other possibilities you are. I'm not trying to give an excuse to Maharaji, just because he believes he's right doesn't make it so. It makes it easier to understand why trying to convince someone not to believe the way they do is so ineffectual. I used to never attempt to argue with someone who preached the absolute truth of the bible because you just couldn't penetrate their beliefs. The background religion of M and his father has as powerful a hold on huge numbers of people as Christianity and the many other religions of the world. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 12:47:35 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Carol Subject: The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts Message: Dear Carol, I wonder when he changed from someone following in his father's footsteps to a person corupted by power. Someone not interested in good works or his devotees personal well being? Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 18:03:09 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Robyn Subject: The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts Message: Robyn you said, 'Wonder when he changed from someone following in his father's footsteps to a person corrupted by power. Someone not interested in good works or his devotees personal well being? I think the split from his family and decision to do things his own way was the beginning of the redefinition of his 'Job'. Everything was focused on the knowledge and increasing devotion and obedience in his premies. I have an Elan Vital from 1978 in which he chastises premies for not really doing satsang service and meditation the right way. In one satsang titled You Are Responsible, I'll paraphrase what he said as there are copyright warnings): if you are a premie than you've got a duty to help spread the knowledge and do any kind of service that you are given. There is mention of being willing to cut off a very important section of your body if you are so asked. In another satsang, he points out what confusion you would cause if you gave satsang to new people in which you mention your willingness to do this thing. Apparently this kind of worry about our botched efforts led him to tell us not to give satsang at all! And no wonder that he did not want us to share old satsang pulications with anyone! But in all of the changes, he is still doing what he believes is his duty...to spread knowledge to the whole world in his lifetime. He can do no wrong, it's us who mess things up. Right? My opinion, of course. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 18:18:10 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Carol Subject: Copyright nothing Message: Carol, I just wanted to mention that you are entitled to clip all sorts of sections from copywritten material for commentary, etc. Nothing at all to worry about. Besides, believe me, there is no one, I mean no one, on this big, sweet earth who's going to sue anyone over publishing any of this garbage. By the way, thanks for a lot of really interesting thoughts. Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 20:00:20 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Carol Subject: The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts Message: Dear Carol, I don't know if some of your post was tounge in cheek but if not I disagree with your statement that he is just doing what he has to to spread K. I think maybe you are right with the timing, when the family split but his telling premies no more 'service' in helping the sick and the down trodden was a BIG clue that he was begining to be corrupted by power. If you were helping others you had less energy/money to give to him. Would a meditation teacher tell you to cut off part of your body? Maybe, my mind goes back to something about the recent festivle in India and the guru who wraped his penis around a stick and, I think, then steped on the stick. That really stuck in my mind! Anyway how can a premie's service help spread K if they can't give satsang? Do you know? My statement indicates that I DO NOT think he is, through all the changes, doing his duty to spread K to the whole world in his life time. What did someone say yesterday, it will take, at the current rate, something like 75,000 years. I guess if he lived that long there'd be no question that he was GOD! I think that is a thinly veiled front for him keeping up a lifestyle he has grown to like. I think at some point, maybe he changed from beliving in himself to becoming a knowing fraud. Just my opinion. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 22:11:17 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Robyn Subject: The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts Message: my mind goes back to something about the recent festivle in India and the guru who wraped his penis around a stick and, I think, then steped on the stick. This is what happens to your crazy mind when you leave MJ, Robyn. It goes so many strange places. Still I suppose I can't blame you... One does have to wonder... Were his legs very, very short, or...? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 16:51:56 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: Brian and Robin Subject: Ha ha ha ha ha Message: I can't stop laughing. Thanks for making my day. eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 18:02:25 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: eb Subject: Ha ha ha ha ha Message: Robyn, what on earth festival in India are you talking about? And, this can't be M who did that wondrous act. or, maybe that does help explain his popularity! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 03:41:02 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Robyn Subject: The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts Message: Robyn, I meant that since he is in charge of it all, he gets to do it any way he wants. The '78 satsang I referred to was at that time, ordering premies to do s,s+ m. I suppose their duty now is to invite people to video events, supply halls, and finance it all. The body part I referred to was the head. He said we should be willing to cut off our heads if asked to do that. In another satsang, same program, he said he would never ask that, but then says that doing that or jumping off a cliff is easy compared to really letting knowledge take effect in your life. Many references also to the constant effort needed and the dangers of not surrendering to the Lord. Typical scare tactics used by religious leaders and the kind of talk that says you can never do enough. Yadda Yadda Yadda (Did you watch the last Seinfeld?) Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 03:52:44 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Carol Subject: The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts Message: It's like being on drugs. As long as the consciousness flows, and you are on a high you can stay up all night and dream about the amazing incredible things you see. Then when the drug wears off you are living in this shit-hole with no friends and no money. Then eventually you don't get any good ideas any more and you are like a shell. You have eaten out your own insides. The glory and the golden light are shadows of cobwebs. Letting knowledge truly take effect in your life - great idea if it hasn't been that I have seen many premies and they are shells mentally and emotionally and pretty screwed up. Some of them are very kind, though, when they are feeling the drug. They are certainly devoted ones too. Waiting for Grace like a big hit. Do I really have the guts to post this? I am scared of being a shell, too, once I tell all my stories. Will I have anything to contribute here then? I hope so. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 10:19:26 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Jude Subject: The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts Message: Dear Jude, Not to worry, dear, as new people come on you'll find yourself repeating those stories. Really though as you change and topics change you won't become a shell. Just like dirty dishes, laudry and lawn mowing, but more fun it is an ongoing happening! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 12:06:52 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Robyn Subject: The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts Message: I know Jude. I want to have fresh stuff to report on also. I have asked Katie to make me the undercover event attender. Maybe if the forum raises enough money for our travel expenses, you may want to accompany me? But they will need to apply for grants or something because I don't do crowded vans anymore. Air fare and nice hotels. That's it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 12:17:09 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Selena Subject: The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts Message: I was invited to an event tomorrow but I'm not going to go. I would love to go incognito (out of my area) Maybe we could arrange a special meeting with M (make no deals) to discuss our issues - all of us together? what I mean is, he may agree to see us since presumably this Forum is not good for him. I was wondering, like someone who's got $50 mil, if this was bad for business, wouldn't they (couldn't they) try to shut it down?. But that is cynical. But on the other hand, he may agree to see us. However he might make a condition like, if I answer all your questions will you leave me alone on the forum? I don't know about that one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 12:48:03 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Jude Subject: could you handle it? Message: I wonder Jude, if I could handle talking to him.. I mean, it's hard enough for me to play professional when I have to meet with certain administrators in upper management that I have zero respect for. Maybe if I took a valium first... oh oh, i don't want to go that route! Seriously, I think I would need a nice gaba receptor alterer to deal with him. It's very admirable for yo to want to be so forthright. dosn't say much for me wanting to be sneaky does it? But, hey, I love to travel. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 12:51:24 (EST)
From: Hey Jude Email: None To: Selena Subject: could you handle it? Message: Someone was bound to say Hey Jude sooner or later :) I wanted you to know I clarified my info re: the word marco virus down in the original virus thread. don't you love that use of the word 'clarify' instead of corrected? Learned from the best of them I did!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 10:59:21 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Selena Subject: could you handle it? Message: You gals are dreaming here! M is not going to talk to you. He won't even talk to me and Jim (snicker). Selena, I volunteer to sneak into a program with you and Katie and anyone else who wants to go. No one knows who we are, so it would be fun. One request, you write up the stuff when we get back :) I would probably have a hard time getting into a K review. You'd have to go that one on your own. P.S. I am going to enjoy gooey tapes. Not as much as the original owner did -haha! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 10:50:12 (EST)
From: Pajama man Email: None To: Jude Subject: What is a shell, Jude? Message: Jude, Have you ever tasted a meal that was so good it melted in your mouth? Ever watched a bird in flight, or sat and listened to a stream? Had great sex, played music, danced until dawn? Worked out and pushed your body to the point of exhaustion? Read a great book or laughed at a crazy movie? Hugged a child? These are considered mundane compared to experiencing drugs, Maharaji, etc., but I don't think they are. The next day you still have yourself. You will still have yourself, Jude. You become a shell when you allow anything or anyone to eat up who you are as a individual. What you have to offer. My opinion, VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 12:08:25 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Pajama man Subject: What is a shell, Jude? Message: I definitely don't do enough of any of those things! I do walk my doggie down to the bay though, and watch the lovely sky and squelch around in the water and watch the dogs have fun. It's a dog's life! I think it is good to talk about fears. I got this sort of paranoid fear that maybe people were only on this forum wanting to hear more dirt on M. and when I had revealed all I knew, so they had more ammo, they wouldn't want to know me any more. the nasty little snitch! (must watch that) Also, I was worried right from the start that if I told my stories people I know would recognize me (hate me, feel betrayed etc) but as time goes by I am less afraid in fact I couldn't give a damn. I feel anonymous and free and I'm sure others have their own issues. Brian helped me with that (thanks Brian) - to understand if anyone is reading this they are looking for their own answers. Regards - you really should get a dog, you know, but it sounds like you're having fun with humans. Bye! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 10:23:26 (EST)
From: Pajama Man Email: None To: Jude Subject: What is a shell, Jude? Message: Jude, I can relate to everything you just said about your fears. I have some of those myself, even if they are totally unfounded. I'm glad you are feeling more free. I am not here exclusively to hear more gossip about M. (Though I admit that I don't MIND hearing it either-haha!) I think that there may be people who READ here log on to hear about M. This is one of the only places they can. I came here to get some answers, and I have. I am interested in getting to know and support anyone who wants to talk about it. After you tell all of your M stories, I will still be interested in talking to you. I am sure you will have lots more stories to tell that have nothing to do with M. :) Enjoy your weekend, VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 10:00:22 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Carol Subject: The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts Message: Dear Carol, Thanks for the further explination. No I didn't see Seinfeld, I was at job 2. I haven't seen the show since job 2 started in January. I use to like it though I heard the ending was a dissapointment, maybe I'll see it on late night in syndication when we go to VP's! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 10:53:31 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Robyn Subject: The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts Message: Robyn. I hope we won't be watching Seinfeld...;) VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 13:02:29 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Carol Subject: The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts Message: So I do not share the views of others here that Maharaji is a scam artist. He is doing his Guru's agya and proceeding forward changing things as he sees fit and never looking back, living in the present, the only place where truth can be. I don't agree with this statement. He may have this as a personal justification for his actions over all, but he makes his personal comfort decisions out of his own self-obsession. There is no sacrifice in Maharaji, although he's quick to ask that of his devotees('if you want'). Hans Ji Maharaj was certainly no saint, but he didn't milk his devotees like his youngest does. He was serious about spreading Knowledge, and surrounded himself with people authorized to maximize that effort. Maharaji canned them, preferring to pocked the upkeep and plane fare that they required. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 14:06:15 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Carol Subject: The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts Message: Carol, If you haven't read it yet, I think you should get your hands on Three Continents by Ruth Prawer Jhabvala. It is out of print, but I understand it can be found. It is a work of fiction, but it is very eye-opening. I recommend it again highly to anyone who is questioning anything about GMJ or really any type of 'movement'. (Jude, Keith, etc.) It is a quick read (though not an easy one, as it is emotionally draining). Sometimes true life is stranger than fiction. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 15:15:45 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: VP Subject: Veep 3 Continents Message: Dear Veep, Where is that book? Probably where that tape I'm moozing Jade to make for you is! I can read it and pass it along if that is acceptable to anyone interested. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 15:34:54 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Veep 3 Continents Message: I am supposed to receive the LOTU video, watch it, and then send it on to you. I thought I'd wait and send them together, especially since you said you couldn't get to the book until August. I can send it now, though, if you'd prefer. Veep-aka Pajama man Read 3 Continents in '98 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 15:40:49 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: VP, Robyn Subject: Try the library! Message: For what it's worth, You're breaking one of Guru John Ji's very important rules: never loan books you like to people you like. In the little city I live in, most of Jhabvala's books can be found. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 16:04:14 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: John Subject: Try the library! Message: John, GuruVPji has the same rule about loaning things. Actually, it's not a loan, it's an ex-premie giveaway. Someone else gave it to me and I'm giving it to Robyn, who will be giving it to anyone else who is interested. The library is a lot less complicated, if you have a good one. In my dreams. Is your email on site? I wanted to ask you something off of the forum. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 16:07:04 (EST)
From: john Email: john.kreilkamp@mailexcite.com To: VP Subject: how exciting! Message: Here it is. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 16:08:24 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: john Subject: how exciting! Message: Don't get your hopes up, it isn't that great... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 17:13:56 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: John, VP, and all Subject: Three Continents and LOTU vid Message: I just bought another copy of Three Continents today at the same used bookstore where I bought the first one, which I gave (not lent) to VP (I don't lend books either, John, I give them away. I might make an exception in VP's case since he is exceptionally responsible, plus a fast reader, but that's it!). I have already offered this book to another person on the forum who likes to read. But if anyone else is interested, please let me know. I am not going to review it, but am hoping that VP will use his considerable writing skills to write a review that we can ask Brian to place on the site. (VP, take note!) Also, I dropped the LOTU video off to get copied today (sorry it took so long, guys. It was the end of the semester here and everything was a mess.) I should have copies to lend out in about a week. I have a distribution list already - if anyone wants to be added to it, please let me know. P.S. John, I know where you live and it is NOT little. Not compared to where I live (80,000 people), and as far as where Robyn and Gerry live, well, forget it... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 15:40:56 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: VP Subject: Veep 3 Continents Message: Dear Veep, No problem, August is fine, or with the video. I just forgot about it until I saw your post. Meow. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 17:38:15 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: VP Subject: The Dead Guru In MJ's Shorts Message: I will look for it and if not successful maybe I could ask for it here. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 18:51:22 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Carol Subject: Carol - 3 continents Message: Hi Carol - see my post above about the book. Also, are you interested in seeing the Lord of the Universe video (about Millenium - as seen from a critical eye?) If so, maybe we could arrange to send you the video and book. If you wouldn't mind sending them to someone else when you're done, that would be great. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 19:38:56 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Katie Subject: Carol - 3 continents Message: Yes, I'd like to see the video. I did see the one years ago with Rennie Davis in it. Is it the same? carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 20:37:22 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Carol Subject: Carol - 3 continents Message: Hi Carol - I think the video IS the one with Rennie Davis in it. He sort of makes a fool of himself, poor thing (I always liked him, so I'm serious). Anyway, e-mail me your address, and I will put you on one of our distribution lists (I will e-mail you the person that I'm going to have send you the video BEFORE I give them your address - you can tell me if it's OK or not!). Regards (and love) from Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:08:55 (EST)
From: Selena the dog Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Answer to Katie's question Message: Hi Katie I don't mind sharing what my counselor told me about the web site. She isn't into computers and hasn't read anything here. She's known me for several years and helped me tremendously. She is aware of my tendencies to be cutting and a little too blunt, and she had concerns that I was using the web site as a place to vent anger without balancing it somehow. She also said I need to remember that what is going on with me is bigger than M and has a lot of history besides him. ie, I 'm giving him too much of the 'credit' She said to just be aware of the addictive qualities of my being on this site, and maybe take a break if I think it appropriate. I still plan to but it's hard because I am online all day anyway so it's easy to come and go to the site. She didn't say I shouldn't - just to be aware. I think she does have a point. After all, here I am, still trying to find out how to get a cheese chair! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:14:46 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Selena the dog Subject: Selena, why do you need her? Message: Selena, You seem so intelligent and insightful. I really can't imagine how this 'counsellor' can really tell you anything beyond what your own ruminations and discussions uncover. Know what I mean? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:44:09 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Jim Subject: Selena, why do you need her? Message: Thanks Jim. I guess I am forgiven for my little outburst yesterday. It's very hard to explain why I went back to her. I hadn't been for a few years 5 I think. It had to do with the last event (the infamous Long Beach 97) and a very traumatic experience that happened between me and a premie 'friend' that I had known since I was 19. What happened devastated me. It was also post-Christmas and all the wonderful stuff that can bring on and I just felt that I needed help. I went back to see her at the same time I started posting here. Both things have been very beneficial. I don't know if I 'need' her, but she doesn't charge me much money at all, and she is very good at what she does, we have becomes friends, kind of, she's also 20 years older than me and that's something I have never had before in my life, a nurturing relationship with an older female. Sometimes I think she needs me and I feel like the couselor but for now I am ok about that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:25:28 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Selena Subject: Selena, why do you need her? Message: Selena, It's okay to go to a counselor. Just be aware of the addictive nature of counseling is all. [grin] Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:40:52 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Brian Subject: Selena, why do you need her? Message: Dear Brian, Nice to see you here at this time of day! What you said was to be funny but I think also for real as it is true about therapists too. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:15:34 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Jim Subject: Selena, why do you need her? Message: Jim are you subtly trying to break Selena's connection with her councillor so you can become her guru? (Yeah I'm stirring the pot but I feel like something slightly unhealthy is going down in this forum.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:24:15 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jude Subject: Selena, why do you need her? Message: Jude, No, I'm not looking to be anyone's guru (except Jack's of course). I just am very skeptical of the counselling industry and wonder what authority this woman has to tell Selena anything. But hey, that's just me? If my simple question threatens that relationship (not saying that it does), then I'd say 'good'. We should question things, don't you think? But, as I say, I was just asking. Otherwise, Jude, what are YOU talking about? Spell it out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:57:14 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Jude Subject: Selena, why do you need her? Message: well, he *did* ask me out that Friday night. Who knows what his diabolical plan is? I may have to tell the therapist at some point that I want to stop agian. This is hard because she is semi retired and doesn't have that much money. and, we have crossed a line. For now, she is still helping me so it's ok. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:40:08 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Selena the dog Subject: Answer to Katie's question Message: Dear Hot Dog, Selena, hot dog was a summer nick name for a St. Bernard/Alaskan Malmute I had for 12 years his winter nickname was chilly dog. I love dogs and miss him very much. Anyway excuse that moment of sentimentality. First I want to tell you that I haven't noticed you being cutting or to blunt but then Jim is here to make you look good. Right Jim? I understand what your counselor told you about your problems being bigger than BM. That just sounds logical to me and this site can be addictive. When I was first here I asked if this site could be addicting and I think it was Brian who responded, you bet! Sometimes I think it is good that I don't have a home computer but once my day job ends I know I will miss the time I have had to be here. Hopefully I will have a home computer before than as I find this site helpful to me in keeping me thinking and on my path of growth, spiritual and otherwise. You could look at it as another opportunity to create your own balance. No one is imposing anything on you, you are in charge. It has taken me some time to begin to get a sense of you but now that I am I really enjoy you and your thoughts and find them insightful and sometimes funny, you little puppy dog! Take care Selena, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:55:48 (EST)
From: Time to walk el pero Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Answer to Katie's question Message: I really am signing off for the day now. really. I am going out to run. I may even try to not sneak peaks later. I do have work to do, even though we are at a very slow time. Thanks Robyn, it has taken me quite some time to get a sense of me also. I hope you get your computer and that your job ending is not going to be a problem financially. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:47:05 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Sighting the Site Message: I am finding this site addictive at the moment. When I started here I had free internet time (quite a lot of it) and lots of time. Now I have used up my internet time and have taken on a frequent user plan because I enjoy this site so much. I'm amazed at myself for doing this. I am now working two jobs so I suppose I can afford it. But I must admit, I got the desire recently to go back and see my 'tough' therapist. I just started to wonder whether this site could become like a cult - I read 'On the Pyschology of Spiritual Movements' off the Useful Links site of this page (actually that's definitely anti-cult - actively recommending alternative information! Obviously the Forum designer/s have read this article themselves (dah!) and are aware of the issues described - ie that any group contains subconscious group stuff that can influence it - eventually anything could be a cult - there could be an Anti-Maharaji Cult. I am aware some stuff about my own subconscious - hence I mentioned needing to read whatI say before I post it - because I too have a 'bite'. I do it to get rid of people. If you start getting close to me, I get rid of you. So being made aware of that only recently at least I can watch myself doing it. Well I know I am responsible for my own behaviour on this Forum and it is only made up of its parts, as long as some 'attitudes' don't get too powerful over others (even, for eg, that logic is everything) - because as the article explains, group things have a tendency to go towards the cult thing (leaders, followers, etc) if we don't stay aware of what we are doing (me included - I'm saying it is possible to just replicate the behaviour here of whatever went on with M and in other places - so what's the difference - awareness - and how does that come, partly from having lots of different input from lots of people not afraid to be truthful, with their own point of view) I'm not saying that is happening here but for some reason I've felt a bit concerned that this whole Forum could be just about M-bashing and seeking revenge, which may be ok to vent but isn't a very healthy way to actually get well. Anyway I think what your therapist said is spot on, about it not just being about M. If others can't see that maybe a therapist could help them,too. One of my personal fears is anger, and I noticed I am afraid of Jim's anger - I would retract anything I said if he 'attacked' me. I guess am terrified of my own anger (drugs are great at sedating any such yang energies). I can easily be a wimp and a people pleaser - so here's a 'nice' quote from that article to round it all off: Involvement with other people will lead to personal growth if the consequences are anticipated. The more one stands on one's own feet the more benefit will arise from cooperating with others. It should be borne in mind that the saying 'It is better to give, than to receive' is not merely a moral precept. On a separate page I have gone into the mysterious presence-phenomenon arising between people who meet in harmony. (that sounds interesting!) Regards to everyone Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 17:21:17 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Jude Subject: Sighting the Site Message: Hi Jude. You said: > I do it to get rid of people. If you start getting close to me, >I get rid of you. So being >made aware of that only recently at least I can watch myself >doing it. Amazing! I do that too! I am very bad about that. It took me years to even be aware that I did it. Then I spent years overcompensating for it and keeping some awful people in my life, while still getting rid of the good ones. Without even knowing I was doing it! And having this spiritual ego that I was in touch with something better than others had, that didn't help matters. We are a good pair. I'll make sure to be mean to you so you continue to talk to me. (just kidding) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 17:28:12 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Jude Subject: Sighting My Self Message: By the way I should have put Jim's 'anger' in quotes because it's only me thinking anything direct or confrontation is 'anger'. You see how I got myself into that cult mess in the first place? Jim I value your exceptionally clear responses in this Forum and the obvious caring behind them. Obviously it must get difficult (diffi-cult?) for you to play 'big daddy' but someone has to do it - maybe the hat changes from time to time. Personally I like reading you when you are showing vulnerability as well, it brings out my humanity (did you read my diet post to you by the way?) I actually got really attached to Scott when I first joined, and I knew it but...I noticed he disappeared pretty quickly. Must have better things to do! I do respect that everyone here has a busy life and many people have a really good balance. Jim, what did you say you do, devote one night a week to this Forum? for me, the subconscious stuff is like a 'bug' it keeps niggling me to do stuff compulsively - but here I am in the Forum - , hopefully not getting fried but getting feed-back (yuk mixed metaphors) By the way with the title Forum bringing to mind the Roman Forum - anyone notice the stage design for Long Beach - that vast blue background and the sort of columns - anyone else find that a bit rich? Or is that just nasty? I must say honestly, I actually turned to a then fellow-premie and said the set was a bit of a worry and he said, M would look good in any setting. The people who love him see through the bullshit surrounding him - maybe they do see his beauty but just miss all the problems. And that's a big JUST - like someone said, you can spend years with self-doubt when someone doesn't admit how they hurt you. I was glad you asked the question, Keith if you are reading this about - what would happen if he did apologise - that was my question too and the answers truly filled me in on parts of myself that are stills so sick I think I deserve to suffer. Regards to you all - I will be at work, probably licking stamps all morning or other such humble tasks as befits an arrogant ego-maniac would-be guru/goddess/lordess of universe type such as the (hidden) part of myself! Regards. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 18:58:30 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jude Subject: Citing the site (to Jude) Message: Jude, It's really funny how this all happens. I am anything but the image of an angry guy. (Come on, Jack, even you can tell her that that's not me.) I'm laconic, kind of Seinfeld like. (I wonder how many people say that about themselves. Fact is, I don't like the show that much but, well when I'm thin, that's sort of, kind of like me). I'm lazy, easy-going and, well far from type A. I guess because I helped get this thing going with Scott and have, from time to time, complusively posted so much, I.... no, that's not it. This is what happened: I've gotten into a bunch of sparring matches with premies. I like that. Don't ask me why; I just don't mind it and definitely get drawn in. So, the premies sometimes single me out and, often just for the hell of it, the ex's play along. The truth is, as anyone reading this page well knows, there are a bunch of people here who post really thoughtful, informed and articulate commentary. I won't name any for fear of forgetting even one but, as we all know, there are a bunch. Ask JW or Brian. We all began corresponding with one another long before the web site (didn't we?). I think they'd agree that it's just gotten richer and richer with the participation of you and all the other newcomers. It's really just a good, extended post-production cast party, isn't it? As for time managaement... you've got to be kidding. I have a real problem and don't know what the fuck to do about it. You guys just keep saying things on my computer! This is a problem. I think formal sign-off's might be of some assistance. But ther, you see, no one's stopping me from doing that. I could, at any time, say 'this is Jim, signing off' and that'd be that. I don't and am literally poorer for it. (I have to admit that my parctice has likely suffered because of all this.) I'm not sure what the answer is. I guess it's pretty selfish of me to think this way but, as long as I'm here, I'm really glad that you are too. For a while there were hardly any women posting here. Not sure if that's substantially significant or anything but it IS nice to have your thoughts. I do look forward to meeting all of you. Hey, Gerry, why not come up here from Seattle this weekend? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 09:16:38 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Jim Subject: Jim Message: Dear Jim, I was thinking about my post where I asked if I was in Victoria... I was serious about thinking Laurie must be a special woman though. Anyway I was thinking about you and what is it about you that makes you so confrontational and also that after reading you for a time it becomes obvious to most everyone that you are a caring person under all that confrontation. I realized that my oldest daughter posesses a similar element in her character, and you may realize that I just love her to pieces! With her, anyway, and maybe you also, she holds others to such high moral standards, more than that, she expects others to hold themselves to very high moral standards. This is a nobel thing but makes it very hard for people to live up to. I think I'm making it all sound more than it is really. Jess is very popular which really suprizes me sometimes just because of the demands she puts on her friends in this moral standards thing but apparently they are drawn to it. For whatever reason, she is, as I believe you are a leader. Interesting because I've thought that if I'd met you in the 'real world' I wouldn't have been drawn to you but now that I've had this revelation I may have been wrong because if you reminded my of Jess I'd probably really hit it off with you, who knows. What do you think of my attempt at defining this part of your character, right or wrong? Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 04:10:23 (EST)
From: *>* event eyes Email: None To: Jude Subject: Sighting My Self Message: You said the people that love him see throught the bullshit surrounding him. Maybe they just see his beauty but just miss all the problems. I know what you mean but I would say that a little different. I saw a video a couple months ago or so and I really saw how the audience responses were disconnected really from him and what he was feeling and saying. It was very much like a laugh track was laid inappropriately over someone speaking. I bought a comedy tape recently and the laughs the guy was getting from the live audience were somewnat undeserved. I thought 'why dont I think that line is so funny?' and it just wasnt all that funny and I figured the people in the audience paid money to go laugh and no comedian was going to get in the way of that if they could help it. CD just went to miami and after flying and hotel and seeing friends and sitting in the hall and watching the preliminary video's, AND after 27 years of investment, And after a year swatting flys here in the forum, HE would be goddamed if he wasnt going to find clarity and truth and optimism. I would go to events and feel my breath and just look with unquestioning marvelling eyes at the ____________. Since I hadn't broken the grip of his long running undercover ultimate ruler guise, I saw him as that. Maybe it is good people fawn over him through distorted lenses at events, it helps to keep him deluded. And as people edge towards freedom, they see the delusion side more. By the way, people read your posts even though we dont join in the thread every time. Sometimes I dont get to a thread till it hits the inactive area because of time constraints. *.* (_) b Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 16:49:08 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: *>* event eyes Subject: Hi Bill Message: Bill Burke, Send me an email: webmaster@cdickey.com I have some info for you. Stick to your real name 'BB' so I can locate your posts more easily. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 18:46:01 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: For once, I agree, Chris Message: Hey, Bill, CD's right. Use your name, set a good example and together we can stem the tide of hyper-anonymity. Chris, I wonder if you're going to answer any of the things I recently asked you. Don't ask me what they were, but I know you ignored them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 23:22:57 (EST)
From: *>* my new tag Email: None To: CD Subject: Hi Bill Message: I will be useing the eyes. That is my new tag. Hope that makes it easy. Just send it to bill52@rocketmail.com thanks Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 23:53:46 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: *>* my new tag Subject: Hi Bill Message: bb, I can always find your posts no matter which handle you are using at the time. I like the fact that you change things around and I like the face-it shows creativity. Hope you get some good info from CD, but beware it may get posted here- (just kidding, CD:) I wish CD no ill will but my days of emailing premies are over. I can get all of the answers from myself. what a relief! It is the best freedom there is, Keith. Take care, bill VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 00:52:55 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Bill Subject: Hi Bill 'eyes' Message: Hi Bill - I knew that the post were yours because of your writing style, but I didn't see the eyes until you pointed them out. Just so you know - Selena sent me the tapes, and I will send them to you (at the address you gave me) as soon as they get here. (If UPS loses them, we will have to figure out how much they were worth so we can place a claim! That should be interesting...) take care, Bill Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 10:25:18 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Katie Subject: gooey tapes Message: Dear Katie, Could you imagine if they were lost and some worker finds them 10 years from now with all that goop on them and then if they listened to them!!! I'd love to see it! They'd have to put them into the bin of letters to god, maybe. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 12:03:57 (EST)
From: Sender of the goo Email: None To: Robyn Subject: gooey tapes Message: Hi Robyn I had a similar thought before I had resolved how to get rid of them. I thought, what if I just throw them in the trash and some dump scrounger finds them and manages to get to a VCR? They would surely think it a miracle and I didn't want that kind of karma, or just guilt for us hardcores who don't like the word karma. So I waited for months leaving them in the closet. But when I absolutely had to clean the closet, i was forced to ask for help for a recycling solution. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 13:21:38 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Sender of the goo Subject: gooey tapes Message: Dear Selena, This forum is multifaceted, now adding recycling to its list of services for those that need it. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 09:05:50 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: *>* my new tag Subject: Thanks, Bill Message: Bill, I'm glad you're going to stick with *>* . Really, if just one posted hyper-anonymously, we'd have needless confusion and who'd be able to ask them to stop? Good move. Thanks again. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 10:29:38 (EST)
From: Robyn for Clem and Rob Email: sundogs To: Jim Subject: Thanks, Bill Message: Dear Jim, Clementine and Robert take exception to your prejiduce against hyper-anonymous posting. When I was a kid I had a useful compainion who I thought got me out of more than one jam, her name was Bad Robin. Then to my distress I found out I got away with stuff because my mom thought the whole idea was cute! Damn, thought I was smarter than she. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 10:21:51 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: *>* my new tag Subject: Hi Bill Message: Dear *>*, Personally, I love it! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 08:55:35 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Jude Subject: Sighting My Self Message: Dear Jude, filled me in on parts of myself that are stills so sick I think I deserve to suffer. I can relate to this and although I have done much work with this issue and come a long way with it I still have touches every now and then. I think you are a woman, maybe I am wrong here but I think women are very suseptable to this type of thinking, not that men are immuned. No one deserves to suffer. Even BM would cut down on his suffering if he would take a reality check, IMHO. He may not think he is suffering but why else would he be so cruel to those who worship and love him. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 20:26:40 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Sighting My Self Message: Yes I was surprised to realise that I couldn't imagine what M owed anyone that would make a difference to them - I think I am so over-responsible for everything and it felt good to read that getting an ackowledgement of wrong-doing could help with someone's self doubt. I suppose someone who has a love of self-doubt has trouble seeing that someone else might have actually been wrong, and are accountable for that. I will think a bit more about it. I noticed that I jumped to the conclusion a bit too quickly that the reason for this 'blind spot' was that I deserve to suffer. No, that's not quite it. I feel this blind spot in my perception is tied up with the 'virus' idea Scott is talking about. I will keep mulling for a while. (very good info, Scott, thanks for publishing it) Last night I started to get the feelings about all this. I started to feel that maybe I was betraying M. (like Judas). What if I was wrong, and he was the Messiah of our time? what if all the bad stuff is not just a reflection of how difficult it is in these dark times to be in his position - and how hard he works to spread his message. I thought about how he said recently in a video that 'some people say, 'well you have a nice house, why don't you stop now?' and I say, spreading this message is what I am here for, I like doing it (words to that effect) For sure he is getting feedback from this forum. It is probably the best thing that has ever happened to him. Finally he is finding out why people are leaving/left and what the problems are. He appears to be trying to address them in a low-key way, not to draw attention to it too much with new people. So he changes, like we all change, and he has a past, like we all do - but whether or not he says today in an obvious way that he is god, he certainly has created a cult. It fitsl the descriptions in the cult article I mentioned earlier. then the next step I suppose (after reading a bit of that Mat Sant essay) is that he will just drop it all and walk away, keeping the enigma alive. He could say he no longer wants the attachments or whatever. He could keep face, and move on himself. Imagine what he must have learned and gained from all this. I'm not trying to be for or against. But I must say, my feelings tell me a different story. I feel very weepy today, very sad. I do feel betrayed but not in an angry way, more very sorry. I listened for a long time before asking for k. I was determined not to get into anything 'false' ever again. Maybe everything has an element of both in it? I don't know. thanks for your support, everyone. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 02:54:12 (EST)
From: Keith Email: None To: Jude Subject: Sighting My Self Message: Your post really moved me Jude. Simular thoughts that have crossed my mind too. One of the issues for me since discovering this site has been relating to and coming to terms with the word 'cult'. I never had thought of M's world as being a cult. And I never had really clear notions of what constituted a cult....or rather, I had never felt the need to think it through. The idea that Maharaji himself might be influenced by the contents on this site ......and that he might actually realise that he has helped to create a cult ...and that he might suddenly change course in some radical way (a variation on your theme Jude), strikes me as quite within the realms of possibilities. I do now accept that E.V has become a cult in many typical ways.....and that many premies are behaving 'cultishly'. I need to delve more and more deeply into this . Thanks Jude. I have been finding your posts and Carol's very helpful of late. Keith. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 03:05:38 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Jude Subject: Sighting My Self Message: Jude, I hope you feel better soon. We need to learn to love and trust ourselves. I too have felt sad, but I also am feeling stronger. I put off facing my beliefs until I had people who I could 'talk' to about them who could understand. (I think that bear joke was disgusting!) Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 04:04:45 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Carol Subject: Sighting My Self Message: Thanks Carol. I find a lot of strength here. Nothing was said that wasn't backed up by information. The one thing missing from the World of Knowledge. I always used to love M's jokes. I think I even thought he got them from some divine place. Only after many years did I hear a joke from him that I had already heard. And he didn't tell it very well. then I felt a bit sorry for him. There is still something about him I love. How hard is it to try and be perfect all the time? I actually didn't have a problem the first time I heard he had an affair and drank (and smoked the odd ciggy). But by then I guess I really knew he was human, just like the rest of us. For quite a while it didn't occur to me why I was still treating him as my Master. Must be compartmentalising things a lot. So it didn't take much for me to realise when I read this Forum, what had been staring me in the face for a while. It's been a relief, really because I feel I can get on with my life and not have to tell people at work about knowledge in my lunch hour ( I felt compelled to because the message was so clear - tell people - that's what I want you to do). I told all sorts of people! How weird for me! The one thing I didn't realise was that I was frightened of stopping. I was afraid that if He had all this power, maybe he would punish me or some harm would befall me, because I was no longer living for Him. Kind of anti-Grace. A premie told me a story that a woman said to her 'I will practice when my kids grow up' and the next day she got killed in a car accident. The message from her was definitely - oh well she missed her chance to get to heaven, didn't she? all eternity awaits her. It's really that old hell and brimstone stuff dressed up, isnt it? (hiding behind all the grace and light - what if - I don't practice?) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 11:49:49 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Jude Subject: Sighting My Self Message: Dear Jude, For me, if he doesn't try to be a decent person, father, husband, receiver of devotion than he is a fraud. If his is god or not I can not respect someone who acts as badly as he. I work harder on myself than he even thinks about doing! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 19:07:38 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jude Subject: Anti-M Cult Message: Anti-M! Anti-M! (Get it?) Selena, Cult's like to throw the anti-cult label at people like us. It's really a bogus accusation, though, in my unquestionable opinion. No one makes anyone here think or do anything save but by the power of persuasion. Cult's are all about bypassing reasoned persuasion. That's simply a non-starter here. This forum isn't JUST about bashing M; it's also about joking around, reminiscing and offering some real support to people who find it here. And, don't forget, it's also about bashing instructors, initiators, premies, other Rawats and their friends. Plus, for some of us, it's about bashing new-age thinking and spiritual transendence. Don't forget Christianity, sometimes it's about bashing that. No, I'd say this is a very balanced and harmonious environment. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 02:40:23 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Jim Subject: Anti-M Cult Message: Jim your really good posts have cheered me up and warmed my heart. Go Jim! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 08:46:35 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Jude Subject: Sighting the Site Message: Dear Jude, Your post is full of truths but it was, I think, Selena whose therapist who said it is not just M who caused her problems and I just agreed. I went to my first therapist more for my oldest daughter, I thought. I got her into therapy because she has a very high IQ yet failed English in 5th grade and I saw that as a cry for help. Eventually they suggested I go also. I gained a lot from that experience and my starting college at that time had a lot to do with going. A few years later I went to another therapist who believed in metaphysical things and was just a wonderfully honest person and she really helped me and both my kids. I guess I'm getting off on a tangent. Back to your post. I think the most important part of your post for me is the quote: Involvement with other people will lead to personal growth if the consequences are anticipated. The more one stands on one's own feet the more benefit will arise from cooperating with others. It should be borne in mind that the saying 'It is better to give, than to receive' is not merely a moral precept. Not only do I believe in the truth of this statement but it is something that I am working to do within myself. That is one big reason I pushed myself to address Jim when I thought he had been picking on me. He responded in a kind way which made me feel very positive about deciding to do it. As far as this forum, Jude, you should do what you need to for yourself first and foremost. Secondly, realize a big part of all this is to supply info and support to aspirants, fence sitting premies and ex's. Wish you all the best dear you have added a lot here. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:34:38 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Selena the dog Subject: replacement gurus and dogs Message: Dear Selena and Gerry, The two of you are to blame here for this deviant thought with all your talk of dogs and BM. I just was thinking about my dogs, Kenya and Fable. They make BM's in the field just beyond the yard that is 'cut' out of the field. There must be hundreds of them, talk about replacement gurus! Thanks a lot guys, now when I take them out to 'go' I'll be out there like a crazy person laughing my head off! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:00:26 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Selena the dog Subject: Selena-off topic Message: Selena, Did you see my response on parenting to you? (now in inactive files.) It doesn't require an answer, I just wanted to make sure you saw it. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:50:03 (EST)
From: doggy mommy Email: None To: VP Subject: Selena-off topic Message: I did go running. It was beautiful out today. But, my resolve left me and I took a peak at forum, and I had to respond to you VP. I am an addict for sure. It's not the forum's fault - I have found far worse things to be addicted to in the past. Yes VP, I meant to respond to your message. thanks so much. This is the very first place and the people here are the only people who have ever understood what I am talking about re: those years and the parenting or non-parenting I did. You have the unique experience of seeing it from your peers and friends side as well as the premie parents. I wanted to make some smart remark about your cat and me and the dog stuff, but.... maybe I'll obsess some more and it will become clear what to say. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 13:28:28 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Upstream with Jack Message: Jack, I thought I'd start a new thread as we were about to get cut off. You said: Jim, if I could only go back and count the number of red-herrings you have fished up from the deep. No Jim, I'm just tired of you guys always aluding to some oblique correlation between M and every negative point you're able to spin about your life while practising K. It tells me that YOU are the revisionists here in that you've completely thrown out anything that was positive for you. In as much as you only focus on the negative you are like a pack of rabid dogs. The ones in the group that I have any affiliation with are those that can not only look at the negative, but also give the positive some airtime too. That's called being open-minded. (And Jim yes, I too have acknowledged negatives in my posts.) I'll start with your last point first, that is, that you're open-minded and have 'acknowledged negatives' here. This should be really easy to clear up. Are you admitting that Maharaji has character flaws? Yes or no? If so, what are they? I don't recall you ever criticizing him. Did I miss something? Second, your point about ex's dismissing or denying anything we expereienced while we were premies is ridiculous. What's wrong with you? Can't you read? Every single premie posting here that I can think of, myself included, has acknowledged at one point or another that being a premie was, at times, exciting and fun. In fact, almost all of us have bemoaned the lost idealism of our cult years; not everybody gets a chance to be one of the early devotees of the living Lord on the dawn of Satyuga. You remind me of Raja Ji the time I challenged him at that program in L.A. The first thing he asked me after I said that I'd given eight years of my life to his brother was if I'd been happy in the ashram. I told him that that wasn't the point. I didn't become a premie or join the ashram because I thought I'd be happy there, I did it because I was told it was the truth, that Maharaji was the Lord and that all other endeavours were maya, illusion, complete waste of time. That was the premise now was it true or not? Actually, I told Raja Ji a bit more. I told him that the question was further senseless in that I had nothing to compare those years with. Let's say, for argument's sake, that I was happier than I might have been if I'd not surrendered my life to my guru. How would I know? It's not like we get to watch our lives like that new movie 'Sliding Doors' where the girl plays out two alternative futures, one occuring when she gets on the subway, one when she misses it. So I'd imagine most premies, current or past, would agree that they enjoyed a lot of their years in the cult. A lot of moments, anyway. (We won't talk about Alistair or Mark T. or any of the other people who either killed themselves, or really suffered throughout, the 'bongo premies', the broken families [hey, you can always start another one!]). No, I personally had a lot of good times. But I also had a lot of bad and I also missed a lot of opportunities and, beside all that the question remains, was it based on truth or an illusion? Was Maharaji the Lord or not? If the answer's no, he's a fraud and that's that. Any attempt to try to defend him beyond that point are dismally pathetic and you know it. Finally, I don't know what great difference you think you find in Anon's position than JW's for instance. Or mine. Or Selena's. I think you're imagining things. We all agree that Maharaji's a scoundrel and that being a premie is a very unfortunate role in life for anyone -- despite how much they smile at any one moment. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 13:55:45 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: One plus you forgot Message: Hey Jim, Don't forget: Not getting the clap. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:01:06 (EST)
From: Dog-ma Email: None To: Gerry Subject: One plus you forgot Message: I do have one plus that's real. It's funny though because it's one that M and the premies on this site will wish I had never gotten! Before I got involved with M, I was a very introverted, shy person. I literally could not talk to people! This is because of lots of awful reasons I don't want to get into. When I got involved with the communities where I lived and moved, I learned to not only talk to all these people, but to get up in front of a whole roomfull and speak! It really doesn't matter that it was satsang, I kind of look at it as speech class. It did help me come out of my shell, as you may have noticed :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:33:02 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Dog-ma Subject: One plus you forgot Message: Gumby, I too was petrified of people and the thought of speaking to a group was terrifying. I managed ok in satsang and even learned to enjoy it, as long as I was mouthing meaningless platitudes along the party line. However, this 'plus' like every 'benefit' of K evaporated. The though of speaking to a group still is a challenge to me. However, I think this forum has already outstripped any benefits I may have gained from my cult involvement. Kudos to those responsible for the forum. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:36:30 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Gerry Subject: One plus you forgot Message: gee, here I *try* really hard to find something nice to say and people think it was gumby. That's cute, Gerry, makes me think it's just not meant to be. (the nice saying stuff I mean) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:55:43 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Selena Subject: plus or minus, that is the ? Message: I'm in awe of your wit. That Dog-ma joke was amazing. Thou art God. BTW, I also lost my shyness in front of crowds giving satsang. However, in my post-cult days when I went back to college, I faced a new challenge which was to speak in front of a class and speak prepared thoughts about things which they would judge, question, evaluate etc. I had to overcome my fear again and really my satsang experience was little help to me. In fact, I started to wonder if it wasn't a liability. Because I just wanted to say to them, look relax, let go, don't think about what I'm saying for crying out loud, just enjoy the pleasant vibe in the room! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:59:38 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Selena Subject: One plus you forgot Message: Whoops, sorry Selena, the Dog-ma name should have alerted to to your true identity. So much for my discernment. Another 'plus' down the drain. I'm off to Seattle, the soggy city, for a little culcher. (Not that my hometown is lacking--only 23 days til the Bear festival, then there's the Blackberry festival, the slug races, logger's appreciation day, just on and on...) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:46:48 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Gerry Subject: One plus you forgot Message: Dear Gerry, Country bumkin entertainment, I am there too. I went to a small town fair with friends who live in the town last summer. What a laugh! The 'band' was exceptional. When we first arrived I thought it was Kerioki (sp?). I was done there in about 2 minutes the next 2 hours was just fluff! Who needs theater etc. that's what high schools are for right? To think I use to go to NYC every Saturday! I love the country though really. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 12:31:06 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Cycle OR, off topic Message: Gerry: I'm trying to scrounge up some intelligence about Cycle Oregon. I've participated in it twice, and was thinking about it again this year. But for some reason they are now begging for applications, when they used to be closed within two weeks. Makes me think something has happened or they're under new management. I have noticed that the price has escalated. It's now $675, including round trip bus fare from and to PDX. I'm thinking that they just have a lot more competition nowadays, or boomers are looking for less demanding vacations. Have you heard anything? -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 13:14:01 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Cycle Iowa off topic Message: Scott, have you ever done RAGBRAI (Iowa)? I think the cost of that is $30 and I think one of the stops this year is as Maharishi University. I'm going to be doing it this year with my sister. Also two partners in my firm are doing it this year. Since you stay in small, ethnic towns, it's a good historical/sociological study as well. I keep thinking someone will write a book about it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 15:52:14 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: JW Subject: Cycle Iowa off topic Message: JW: I don't want to take the chance of offending you, so I won't subject you to my extensive opinion of RAGBRAI. Suffice it to say that I had the misfortune to do it twice. I just couldn't believe that my experience the first time wasn't due to some character flaw. I'm fine. RAGBRAI is just not fun for me. It was the worst and second-worst time I've ever had on a vacation. Cycle Oregon still ranks as one of the best, except for Sumpter which was a cold night in a plowed field with insufficient food. I will say that a lot of people swear by RAGBRAI. It was, after all, the first and it is still the biggest. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 16:56:13 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Cycle Iowa off topic -- GEEZ Message: Gee, Scott, sorry RAGBRAI was such a drag for you. I have also done it twice (both times in the mid-80s) and had a great time both times. I did feel that I was ready to refrain for awhile (my sister, who teaches at the University of Iowa, has done it 10 times) but I think it's time to do it again? Why was it so terrible for you? Too many people? Too hot? Part of the reason it was fun for me is that my sister takes care of getting us accommodations with people in the little towns we go through. Also the food is great, even for vegetarians. Also, I grew up in Iowa, on the Mississippi River, but I never really saw the state before RAGBRAI. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 17:16:48 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: JW Subject: Cycle Iowa off topic Message: JW, when is it? I'd really like Peter to be able to do something like that. (I am not a cyclist because of my inner ear thing.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 17:41:39 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Katie Subject: Cycle Iowa off topic Message: It's the third week (I think) of July. If Peter wants to go, I'm sure he could hitch along with us if he wanted to. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 18:56:06 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: JW Subject: Cycle Iowa off topic Message: Thanks, Joe. I will let him know. He is really a pretty nice guy and wouldn't cause you much trouble en route... He has an ancient but good bike, dresses a tad strangely when he's off duty, IS from Madison, but otherwise is OK. Wish I could come too! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 19:57:47 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Katie Subject: Cycle Iowa off topic Message: Maybe Peter should talk to Scott who didn't like RAGBRAI before he decides to do it. One think to tell Peter, we do not camp out, because I can't relate to riding a bike for 100 miles and then sleeping in a tent. It's a treat for me, because we stay with local people who offer their homes and I get some of that small-town hospitality that I grew up with. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 20:46:05 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: JW Subject: Cycle Iowa off topic Message: I should just give up and e-mail this to you JW, but what the hell. Peter does not mind camping out or staying in other people's houses. After he graduated from high school he rode bikes with another guy from Wisconsin to Texas. They ran out of money in Hope, Arkansas (really!) and ended up working in a chicken processing plant for a month to make money. They stayed with some lady who didn't mind renting a room to them. Anyway, I will ask him about RAGBRAI - it could be taking place at a crucial corn growth stage and then all this chit chat would be for naught. Thanks Joe, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:39:28 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Dog-ma Subject: One plus you forgot Message: Dear Selena, This dog thing is getting so creative, except for my above post, yuck. Anyway it's a big THANKS to the BM for getting you out of your shell but that couldn't happen today as we all know. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:36:23 (EST)
From: Jack Email: None To: Jim Subject: Upstream with Jack Message: Jim, I'll start with your point about whether or not M is Lord (whatever your interrpretation of that is) and if not, then he's a fraud. This is the basis and justification for everything you've done to-date around your campaign against him. Well… I agree with you 100%, if not, then he's a fraud. I like you certainly don't want to dedicate my life to self-appointed 'divinity'. But what if he is? What if when we came on-board we hardly understood what such a statement meant and part of the journey for those who stayed on has been to learn the true meaning of 'Lord'. Now, you can cite a million reasons for why you think he's not… but how would someone like yourself who doesn't even believe in a higher power even know what yardstick to use as a measure of divinity? And Jim, even your pontifical sermon below on critical thinking doesn't give me any confidence that you are protected from self-delusion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:06:31 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jack Subject: Upstream with Jack Message: Jack, I am certainly not protected from self-delusion, no matter how many pontifical sermons I write. I'm with you there. So what do we do? I think that at a certain point you stand back and really weigh the evidence. Here are some facts: 1) Maharaji claims that at age eight he became fully realized and an embodiment of God. Not at all in the sense that 'we're all God' but in the sense that he, personally, is the Supreme Lord in Human Form, come with more power than ever before, etc. 2) If he really did think to say this without any prompting, he would have been just another eight year old kid, spouting nonsense, in this case, obviously affected by his dad's line of work and sorry demise. This story only got legs because his family, mainly his mum, but also his older brothers, played along. 3) He claimed that his mother and brothers were all fully god-realized just as they worshipped him as the 'greatest incarnation of God ever'. 4) He staged a fiasco called Millenium '73. If you like, Jack, I'll happily have you over to Laurie's next time you come to Victoria and show you the video. Maharaji had been saying for a few years that something great and strange was going to happen at which time the world would finally know, not just that god exists, but who he is. Finally, he focused on Millenium as the event that that would fulfil that promise. Of course nothing happened. It was poorly attended, Maharaji made a fool of himself at the press conference and DLM was mired in sizeable debt. 5) His eldest two brothers split with mum and a bunch of long-time followers and mahatmas of dad's and said the whole thing was a mistake, Maharaji was never really meant to be the guru. Opps! 6) Maharaji allowed things to thaw out in the mid 70s but started up the ashrams and a certain religious fervour all over again in the late 70s. He eventually had to give up that effort once again in the earl 80s for whatever reason. The key point is that, once again, he demonstrated taht he really doesn't know what he's doing, he has no 'master plan' and, perhaps most telling of all, refuses to admit that he's been really wrong about things. In fact, he has tried to blame all errors on his mother or anyone else he can think of, irrespective of the fact that that, in mum's case at least, she was out of the picture long before he reversed himself once again in the early 80s. 7) He has closed off all communciation to anyone who recalls his past and wants to ask him about it. Instead, he maintains a superficial, blinkered cult relationship with a dwindling following (no one can reasonably deny that his attrition rate exceeds his recruitments.) Even if he's holding onto his small pack of faithful followers, he's not exactly changing the world. The idea's a bigger joke than I can even type. 8) There's a lot more but you get the idea. By the way, Jack, you didn't answer me about M's character flaws. Come on, you said you're open-minded and have acknowledged the 'negatives'. What are Maharaji's character flaws? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:21:36 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Jim Subject: Jim and Laurie Message: Dear Jim, If I ever come to Victoria, can I come to Laurie's? I think that is your girlfriend and I'd LOVE to meet her. She must be a very special lady for you to accept and love her as I believe you have been together for a long time. I am not saying I think you are a bad man, not at all, just a tough one and she must be a special woman to keep up with you. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:49:55 (EST)
From: Jack Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Jim and Laurie Message: Geez Jim, how do you keep from throwing up? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 18:41:24 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jack Subject: Jim and Laurie Message: Jack, Just got back from court and read this. Very funny. I'm stil laughing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 04:55:32 (EST)
From: *>* b Email: None To: Jack Subject: streaming Message: Do you mean lord as in reality? Or lord as in the guys who have had religions and groups enshrine them after they died and while they were alive. Buddha's own words reveal him to be a disgruntled complainer who just decided that life was this burden of suffering that needed to be eliminated. At all costs. Of course he is enshrined as lord to a lot of folks but that is thier mistake. The dali lama is supposidly the reincarnation of the highest godhead in the 'other world of floating godheads' and so he is lord too, but that is lunacy also. Is prem rawat god after all? As a long term 1973-1997 misguided and fully sold believer, I didnt walk away without some doubts. But rawat has more than proven his falseness by his words and deeds. HE convinced ME. IS there a real lord? Well, the one so called lord that marched around wielding great power in front of many witnesses had this to say: Recognise there is a concious power. It HAS a personality. Like (love) the power. Like (love) the other humans. You dont have to worry about saveing yourself. You dont have to think you have to 'attain' some fantasy state of being. Enjoy the friendship of the life. Watch out for what there is to watch out for. The greatest sin is spiritual pride. If you live in my word (breath) you will know the truth and it will set you free. blah, blah, blah. SO you ask at this point, 'but isnt m showing the breath?' (and this is the insideous part of it). Well, he sort of is, 15 minutes in the middle of other things to do. He has the crown, and make no mistake, he HAS and DOES imply he IS the lord still. But try to actually take him up on that and you are left barren and misdirected and his personal behaviour has always run very contrary to that. The REAL power has fought him by crippleing him with flaws that have set MOST of those that were around him free. Are YOU more willing to believe than bill Patterson? I dont think so. Or look at Jims letter he posted from the seventies-JIM was quite the believer also. Has anyone played lord of the universe as brazenly as rawat EVER? Not on such a large scale. IS he the millenium anti christ? Depends on your viewpoint but what the hell so you need to do to qualify for that title anyway? Say your god, hijack the breath, be completely narcissistic, Deny there IS a god but yourself as god incarnate, say that there is no god and the 'energy' has no personality except what the master gives it, think rage and fury are appropriate 'tools' to keep smashing peoples 'ego's (freedom impulses). the list goes on. Have no doubt, rawat is a deciever and frankly anti god. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:01:58 (EST)
From: Jack Email: None To: Jim Subject: Upstream with Jack Message: In answer to your question about character flaws. I see a unique character with attributes that some would call flawed. The same could be said about any leader of people, past or present, who is admired by the world. Of course your public relations campaign takes these attributes and attempts to paint a very demonic picture of him which is truly bizarre. One thing is for sure. He IS in charge of his own ship. That rubs a lot of people the wrong way - especially ones with their own agenda, their own pet cause, or with a fragile ego. Some read into that as arrogance, but I see someone who's not afraid to take charge, call a spade a spade, and go against the conventional wisdom of the day if he has to. After all, today's CW is tomorrow's argument for dismissal. And as I said in my previous post, who of you really know what yardstick to use as a measure of Divinity? Jack Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:19:00 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jack Subject: Upstream with Jack Message: Jack, Just as I expected. Of course you're not able to criticize Maharaji. You're full of shit, Jack, when you say you're open-minded and able acknowledge the negatives. Pressed to deliver, all you can say is that Maharaji's got strengths which others, not you, might see as weaknesses. You're fooling yourself, aren't you? You are psychologically unable to fault Maharaji. Why not admit that and at least score a couple of points with yourself for a little honesty? But then, according to your other post above, why should you find any faults in Maharaji? He is, you think, the Lord. But then, according to your other other post, you say you've got an open mind and can acknowledge the negatives. Now how does that work? If you've got an open-mind are you saying that you're open to the proposition that Maharji's a fraud? And if you think that he's the Lord, why would you say that there are any negatives to acknowledge or not? You're confused, Jack. Admit it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 17:12:15 (EST)
From: Jack Email: None To: Jim Subject: Upstream with Jack Message: Jim, some things are conjecture, and some things are not. I try real hard to know the difference between the two, and not get them mixed up. If not getting the two mixed up implies by your definition I'm closed-minded... what can I do? I try to keep an open mind about things that are conjecture and try to trust that which is proven solid. You see for you, everything about M is conjecture. So your definition of open-mindedness is different than mine. I've read and pondered all your questions and doubts at least 100 times, and there is still something about him which is not full of conjecture, but is solid. But then again I still have the benefit of a connection to him to see the other side of those doubts, which is a perspective you don't have. You appear to be saying that because we see things differently I'm closed-minded. THAT in itself is pretty... well closed minded. Jack Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 20:17:14 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jack Subject: Upstream with Jack Message: Jack, When you say: You see for you, everything about M is conjecture. I'm not sure what you mean. I mean, obviously, you'll bend over backwards to defend him but will you avoid simple facts in the process? That's irrational and is, in fact, the favoured domain of all sorts of conspiracy nuts and assorted crackpots. For example, holocaust deniers. They keep saying all they want is the evidence. They're open-minded people, just not about to jump into things. They just want the facts. So how is it that the rest of the world, include countless eye-witnesses (from all sides), historians, scientists and, well everyone, can be satsified that the holocaust is historical fact beyond dispute and these guys say otherwise. They say that's just 'conjecture'. What's going on? There's a good book you might like called 'Why People Believe Weird Things' by Michael Shermer (the editor of Skeptic magazine). He deals with this question excellently. In terms of the holocaust he says this -- the trick is that the holocaust isn't proven by one, single bit of evidence. It's a complex fact proven by the congruence of a whole bunch of facts. Yes, any one eyewitness could be lying but, put them all on the table, etc. etc., and you have a body of evidence beyond dispute. That's just a description of common sense,really but, for various ideological reasons, people forsake their common sense sometimes. It's readily apparent to anyone employing their common sense that something is rotten in Malibu. Come on, like someone said earlier today, you've got the two guru brothers, each claiming to have the family special sauce, neither one willing to take any questions. You've got the grandiose 'more power than ever before' claims contrasted by an atrophying membership that never really got that large to begin with. Oh it goes on and on. People with common sense can see that. That's why Maharaji can't afford exposure to the outside world -- common snese would fry him in a second. 'Oh, aren't you the same guru who came to America back in the sixties sometime?' 'Yeah, well, maybe. Who's asking?' 'My nephew got involved with your group. At least I think it was yours. Didn't you ahve a bunch of Rolls Royces or something?' 'Excuse me, I don't think that..' 'You know you put my sister and her husband through quite a number. They hardly heard from that kid for years. When they did it was just to hear how you were the Lord and that they should send him some money to travel someplace, I can't remember where. Didn't you have some big rally in New Orleans or something?' 'When was that?' 'Oh, I'm talking about some big thng you had. Don't you remember? I could have sworn it was New Orleans.' 'Houston, maybe?' 'Hmm.. maybe. So what are you doing these days? You're not still in the guru business, are you?' 'Well, I don't use that word anymore. I do teach, well we don't use the word 'meditation' either. But yes, I show a way to ..' 'Listen, did you really say you were the Lord? My sister said that her son, Daniel, was saying some pretty incredible things' 'You know, I'm really not up to discussing this, if you don't mind. I'm sorry about your nephew..' 'Well, he's okay now. He's got a little business in Phoenix, nice family. Don't worry bout him. I would like to know, though, really, sir, you have to understand. My family went through a whole lot over your church and I think I'd be remiss if I didn't get some answer from you for my sister. Didn't you claim you were the Lord? SHE sure said you did.' 'I'm sorry, I have to leave now. Good-bye' 'Good-bye to you, sir!' Common sense, Jack. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 21:10:57 (EST)
From: Jack Email: None To: Jim Subject: Upstream with Jack Message: Pretty lame response Jim but entertaining fiction. One thing that can be said about you is you are entertaining. Say, that was a pretty funny post of Robyn's. Next thing you know you'll be renaming your apartment 'Graceless Land', Brian will start advertising for junket tours to Victoria on the website, you die, there'll be sightings of you with a well developed gut popping into the odd 7-11 or strip-joint, the cult you never admitted to will form, and bingo... you acheive immortality, just like Elvis. And you can use the profits to help the cause. All for today. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:25:16 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Jack Subject: Jack Message: Dear Jack, Of course he's in controll of his own ship, he doesn't trust anyone else to help him. Who has a public relations campaign? Is that what you think this is? Lofty, watch out or we'll all get to thinking way to much of ourselves! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:41:46 (EST)
From: Jack Email: None To: Jack Subject: Yardstick Message: Jack, Another thing: you asked -- ... who of you really know what yardstick to use as a measure of Divinity? Well, that's quite a question. I don't know how to answer it frankly other than to say that it assumes something, divinity, which might not exist. But how about this question -- Who really know what yardstick to use as a measure of fraud? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:42:59 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jack Subject: Sorry, that was me Message: Yardstick was me, not Jack (For a second I was amazed tah you repleid so quickly!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 17:15:18 (EST)
From: Jack Email: None To: Jack Subject: Yardstick Message: Who really knows the yardstick to use as a measure of fraud Another equally relevant question Jim. Now we're getting somewhere. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 20:15:41 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jack Subject: Yardstick Message: Jack, Yes it's a good question if an easy one. A fraud is someone who tricks people. Makes them believe stuff that isn't true, usually for personal gain although not always. Do you agree with that? By the way, you didn't answer me about Maharaji's character. Should I assume you think he's faultless? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:47:06 (EST)
From: Jack Email: None To: Jack Subject: Upstream with Jack Message: JW, thought I'd respond to your inactive post here. You claimed you didn't say M used fear and intimidation to pursuade people to go to programs. Come on JW, not in those exact words but you did say something to the affect of (and I paraphrase out of laziness), 'remember parents like Selena thought it was a sin to not go to programs '. Well, a 'sin' in the classical religeous context is promoted as such through fear of the consequences. You therefore implied that if they didn't go to a program there would be heavy consequences. By using the word 'sin' you clearly imply he used fear and intimidation to 'force' people to go to events. Do you still contend you did not imply that? My point that you digressed from by making that statement was that for the most part premies who attended events did so because they loved it. For them, that was always the driving force. Jack Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 18:25:23 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jack Subject: The Parent Trap Message: 'remember parents like Selena thought it was a sin to not go to programs '. Well, a 'sin' in the classical religeous context is promoted as such through fear of the consequences. You therefore implied that if they didn't go to a program there would be heavy consequences. By using the word 'sin' you clearly imply he used fear and intimidation to 'force' people to go to events. Do you still contend you did not imply that? Yes, I definitly DID imply that many premie parents felt it was a sin not to attend a program. But that is different than saying fear and intimidation was used, which I never did say. I think Selena is someone who says she did feel, and eb has said the same, that it was their duty as parents to bring their kids to the lotus feet, whether it was to take 10,000 years of their karma, or just to be in contact with the living god, even, in the case of Selena and other parents I knew, when they really didn't want to put their kids through that. Now, the fact they felt this way, which, as you have not once denied, is partly, in my view, because BM allowed himself, without comment, to be viewed as god incarnate (under such terms as lord of the universe, superior power in person, perfect master, creator, preserver, destroyer, and all the rest). He also never once, during my involvement, addressed the issue of householder premies and children, and never expressed any concern as to how premie children were faring either in or outside of programs. That is why he's responsible. Maybe that has changed. I certainly hope so. The SIN was that they weren't giving their kids the opportunity to be in contact with god in human form, not because of intimidation. Some parents, I'm sure, had a good time at programs and so did their kids, and so did I. So? That doesn't prove anything. I never contended that all premie kids were damaged. I take it from your silence that you tacitly admit to the other stuff I mentioned, that childcare was NOT eliminated because of some concern for children, that a lot of premie kids did suffer because of the financial and time constraints imposed on their parents by the desire to go to programs, do service, and give every available cent to BM for one of his ridiculous projects, like that Boeing 707, or just to support his lavish lifestyle. Also, that a bunch of families broke up and were also terribly strained by 'service' constraints, like when many were uprooted and reloctated to Miami during the plane project, where my lived in very unsuitable conditions for years. I saw that with my own eyes. Hey, do you agree with Mark Appleman, that BM's net worth is in excess of $50,000,000? BM may not be able to do propogation worth a shit, (366 people!!!)but he sure as been effective at increasing his assets, now hasn't he? Hmmm...wonder which or those is really his priority? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 20:50:22 (EST)
From: Jack Email: None To: JW Subject: The Parent Trap Message: JW, please don't take anything from my silence other than my tired eyes can only focus on so much. Who can account for all the airy-fairy interpretations premies gave to the master/student relationship? I'm tired of hearing the argument that because he didn't address an issue in a timely enough manner that he supported those wierd interpretations. He made changes when it became appearent that things needed to be changed, and things could be changed. But that's not good enough for you JW. I'm starting to believe nothing short of him throwing in the towel would ever be good enough for you. Why don't you mention the changes he did make, and the balance he had to strike between making change and making sure premies weren't left behind. Ever been an agent of change in a large organization JW? Ever tried to wrestle with that one? BTW, I did hear of his expressed concern for the children at programs - a message I communicated to premies within my areas of responsibility. I always gathered that his concern factored Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 21:18:32 (EST)
From: dog-ma Email: None To: JW and whoever cares Subject: The Parent Trap Message: I love that argument, it's not M's fault it's the people around him and their concepts. i.e. He can't help what a hopleless crew follow him. Weird thing is it still happens, so are we supposed to use this same excuse in 2020? When someone from our little premie community didn't make it to LB, - she stayed because of finals, imagine the ignorance! - the 'sister' with me nodded and made a smug comment when we got the call that this defectee had been in an accident back home. I forget the exact words but it was something like ' We know there are no concepts involved but you have to see the coincidence.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 13:04:05 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jack Subject: The Parent Trap Message: So when did he finally address the issue of children? He didn't do it before 1983, that's for sure. Oh, yeah and WHEN did he finally address the issue that he really wasn't god (anymore)? 1986? 1996? You are a little short on any details here, Jack. You just make statements with no support. It doesn't require some organizational structure to do either of those things. It just requires him to say it. As you know, we hung on his every word. And I can account for the 'airy-fairy interpretations premies gave to the master/student relationship.' They came from BM himself, repeatedly, not only in what he said, and what he didn't say, but also what he DID, like wear crowns, sit on thrones, have people kiss his feet, propogate the ashrams, and repeatedly demand total devotion and surrender. With that kind of stuff going on, what kind of 'interpretations' from the premies would you expect? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 16:47:43 (EST)
From: Jack Email: None To: JW Subject: The Parent Trap Message: So when did he finally address the issue of children? He didn't do it before 1983 No I don't believe it was before '83, but I couldn't tell you the exact date. I don't have supporting 'facts' because I have a rotten memory. If you'd stuck around I'm sure you could have told me. It doesn't require some organizational structure to do either of those things. It just requires him to say it. As you know, we hung on his every word You mean we hung on our every interpretation of his every word. JW with all due respect, your trivialization of the process of change indicates a real lack of experience in this area. Run it by Scott your resident MBA. If he's objective I trust he'll agree, even the smallest change in a complex organization can have significant and far reaching impact. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 11:58:06 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Christian dogma (to gumby) Message: Gumby, I was looking over on the inactive index to some of that 'radar screen' thread that I hadn't read and noticed a couple of things. One, you calim the bible is a 'gift from God'. What reason do you have for believing this other than modelling someone else who thinks this way? Are you familiar with the Jesus Seminar, the assempbly of scholars who have gone through the whole new testament and sorted out what Jesus actually said and did from what he didn't, dividing everything into one of four colors based on their likely veracity? It turns out that Jesus didn't say or do but a fraction of much of what's attributed to him. Can you accept that? Also, Paul challenged you quite clearly on a simple but important point: The question you appear to be avoiding is whether or not you place you're beliefs in an exclusive category-the Truth. If you do, you can't help but dismiss the beliefs/experiences of others as being misguided or delusional. You may do so with great christian compassion, but you are still placing yourself in the same category as premies who believe they have found the one great truth in life. I'm not going to reprint your answer here but will only say that, again, you talked around the subject without directly answering him. Isn't that exactly what premies defending Maharaji do? Don't forget, you started it -g! Sincerely, Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 17:04:59 (EST)
From: dog-ma Email: None To: Jim Subject: Christian dogma (to gumby) Message: nuh uh, I am NOT a Christian neither :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |