Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 7

From: May 8, 1998

To: May 19, 1998

Page: 3 Of: 5



Jim -:- Critical thinking -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 11:32:25 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Critical thinking -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 12:10:03 (EST)
____Jim -:- Critical thinking -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:09:52 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Critical thinking -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:04:16 (EST)
________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Critical thinking -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:51:59 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- Critical thinking -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:32:21 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Jim's disguise -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 19:53:57 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- Critical thinking -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 19:49:18 (EST)
__eb -:- Critical thinking -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 13:31:25 (EST)
____JW -:- Critical thinking -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 18:36:49 (EST)
____Katie -:- Critical thinking -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 10:24:29 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Critical thinking -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 12:29:50 (EST)
________Katie -:- mothers day card (off topic) -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 14:19:54 (EST)
__JW -:- Critical thinking -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 19:11:10 (EST)
____Jim -:- Critical thinking -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 19:21:21 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Critical thinking -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 09:41:43 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Critical theory -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 19:43:40 (EST)
____Jim -:- Critical theory -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 20:21:35 (EST)

Brian -:- New archive and Marolyn letter -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 09:08:33 (EST)

Keith -:- K , M and a few jokes. -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 03:50:48 (EST)
__Keith -:- a few jokes. -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 04:03:41 (EST)
____Robyn -:- a few jokes. -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 09:49:49 (EST)
__Brian -:- K and M -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 07:44:09 (EST)
____Keith -:- K and M -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 08:19:56 (EST)
______Keith -:- A third point -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 08:32:24 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- K and M -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 09:03:48 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Sorry about the typos -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 09:07:55 (EST)
________Carol -:- David Lane's website? -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 19:22:42 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- David Lane's website? -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 02:38:44 (EST)
______Robyn -:- K and M -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 09:57:25 (EST)
______Jim -:- It takes more than luck, Keith -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 11:03:11 (EST)
____Jim -:- Good point, Brian -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 10:56:53 (EST)
____Selena -:- K and M editing -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 13:35:35 (EST)
______Jude -:- Bear Joke -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 04:36:08 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Bear Joke -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 09:58:33 (EST)
________Pajama Man -:- Bear Joke -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 14:54:51 (EST)
________Selena -:- Bear Joke -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 19:00:34 (EST)
____VP -:- gotta wait toooo long... -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:49:07 (EST)
__Katie -:- K , M and a few jokes. -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 09:32:33 (EST)
__Robyn -:- K , M and a few jokes. -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 09:43:14 (EST)
____Keith -:- K , M and a few jokes. -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:01:47 (EST)
______Keith -:- K , M and a few jokes. -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:06:21 (EST)
________Selena -:- K , M and a few jokes. -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:10:16 (EST)
__________Keith -:- K , M and a few jokes. -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:23:08 (EST)
____________Jim -:- K , M and a few jokes. -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:29:41 (EST)
______________Keith -:- To Jim. -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 17:07:18 (EST)

Jude dont fence me in -:- Important -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 16:05:13 (EST)
__Jim -:- Your first criticism today? -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 16:18:27 (EST)
____Jude -:- Your first criticism today? -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 17:03:13 (EST)
______Jude -:- Do you read me? -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 17:25:02 (EST)
________John -:- I read you I read you -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 17:38:40 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- I read you I read you -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 18:02:39 (EST)
__________the rabid dog -:- grrrr snap bite -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 18:25:08 (EST)
____________poochie woochies -:- a head's up! -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 18:57:36 (EST)
________Katie -:- Do you read me? -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 20:05:57 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Your first criticism today? -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 17:56:11 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Important Jude -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 18:08:32 (EST)
__Selena -:- everyone please fence me in -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 18:42:26 (EST)
__Jim -:- So, I'm an idiot? So? -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 20:23:49 (EST)
____Jude -:- that's allright Jim -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 05:03:03 (EST)
______Jim -:- that's allright Jim -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 10:39:29 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- that's allright Jim -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 10:56:55 (EST)
______Poochie -:- that's allright Jim -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 12:19:53 (EST)
______VP -:- that's allright Jim -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:22:14 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Vic -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:51:50 (EST)
__________VP -:- Hi -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 17:44:39 (EST)
________Jude -:- to VP -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 04:44:12 (EST)
__________Jude -:- Cat -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 04:46:48 (EST)
____________Pajama Man -:- Cat -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 14:31:07 (EST)
______________Katie -:- Cats off topic -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 19:02:35 (EST)
________________VP -:- Cats off topic -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 19:30:49 (EST)
______________Jude -:- Cat's Pyjamas -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 19:49:29 (EST)

Selena -:- replacement guru -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 14:31:46 (EST)
__Jim -:- Haven't you heard? I will -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 16:01:16 (EST)
__Mark -:- replacement guru -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 16:46:55 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- replacement guru -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:34:58 (EST)
______VP -:- Scott, intellectual women? -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 23:35:43 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Scott, intellectual women? -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 01:07:45 (EST)
__________JW -:- Scott, intellectual women? -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 13:21:10 (EST)
____________VP -:- Male replacements -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:31:29 (EST)
__________VP -:- Scott, intellectual women? -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:59:51 (EST)
____________JW -:- Not Bucket -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 17:32:45 (EST)
______________VP -:- Not Bucket -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 17:49:20 (EST)
________________JW -:- Not Bucket -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 17:52:09 (EST)
__________________VP -:- Not Bucket -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 18:02:42 (EST)
____________________JW -:- Not Bucket -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 18:31:16 (EST)
______________________Katie -:- Not Seinfeld -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 18:48:46 (EST)
________________________JW -:- Not Seinfeld -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 18:55:38 (EST)
__________________________Katie -:- Not Seinfeld -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 19:05:30 (EST)
____________________________JW -:- Not Seinfeld -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 19:13:20 (EST)
________________________Jude -:- Not Seinfeld -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 05:02:09 (EST)
__________________________Katie -:- Seinfeld and TV - off topic -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 10:05:03 (EST)
____________________________Robyn -:- Seinfeld/3rd Rock - off topic -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 10:44:02 (EST)
____________________________Selena -:- Seinfeld and TV - off topic -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 19:54:39 (EST)
______________________Robyn -:- Not Bucket -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 10:29:37 (EST)
______________________VP -:- Jerry and George -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 14:46:53 (EST)
________________________JW -:- Jerry and George -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 15:25:23 (EST)
__________________________VP -:- JW and Katie -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 15:52:48 (EST)
____________________________JW -:- Injuries -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 17:16:10 (EST)
__________eb -:- Scott, intellectual women? -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:14:30 (EST)
__JW -:- replacement guru -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 17:20:37 (EST)
__Robyn -:- An aside -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 18:04:50 (EST)
__Robyn -:- replacement guru -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 18:13:07 (EST)
__Selena -:- replacement -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 18:30:43 (EST)
____Jim -:- Booty bounty -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 20:31:10 (EST)
______JW -:- Booty bounty -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 20:33:32 (EST)

Paul` -:- Program in Miami? -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 13:54:44 (EST)
__Selena -:- Program in Miami? -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 14:44:02 (EST)
____Jude -:- Program in Miami? -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 15:07:08 (EST)
__CD -:- Program in Miami? -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 17:38:54 (EST)
____JW -:- Program in Miami? -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:25:24 (EST)
______CD -:- Program in Miami? -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 20:13:19 (EST)
________JW -:- Program in Miami? -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 20:31:37 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Program in Miami? -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:15:44 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Taping the videos -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:30:30 (EST)
____Jim -:- Program in Miami? -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 23:02:14 (EST)
______Jethro -:- Program in Miami? -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 04:16:46 (EST)

John -:- Does anyone remember... -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 12:44:47 (EST)
__Selena -:- Does anyone remember... -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:24:10 (EST)
__JW -:- Does anyone remember... -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:35:28 (EST)
____eb -:- Does anyone remember... -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:01:05 (EST)
______Keith -:- Where are they? -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 17:24:59 (EST)
________JW -:- Where are they? -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 17:36:54 (EST)

gumby -:- The Burglar... -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 23:30:50 (EST)
__carol -:- The Burglar... -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 00:00:58 (EST)
____gumby -:- The Burglar... -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 01:06:28 (EST)

Brian -:- Magic Money!!! -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 23:02:23 (EST)
__Jim -:- Brian, you've crossed the line -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 01:54:48 (EST)
____Cheddar -:- Brian, you've crossed the line -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 08:41:23 (EST)
____Mickey the Pharisee -:- Brian, you've crossed the line -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 16:42:30 (EST)
______Jim -:- Hilarious for a Christian -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 20:40:09 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Magic Money!!! -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 08:13:39 (EST)
____Brian -:- Magic Money!!! -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 08:51:16 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Magic Money!!! -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 08:59:02 (EST)
______VP -:- Life Insurance -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 11:05:45 (EST)
________Selena -:- Life Insurance -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 12:29:48 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- Selena -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 13:30:15 (EST)
____________Selena -:- Selena -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 14:15:27 (EST)
__John -:- Guru logic strikes again! -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 09:49:53 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- Logic, grace and El Nino -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 13:04:15 (EST)
______Jude -:- Logic, grace and El Nino -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 14:36:21 (EST)
________focus your mind -on a -:- member -of the -rawat clan. -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 20:58:59 (EST)
__________Jude -:- member -of the -rawat clan. -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 05:14:11 (EST)
____Jude -:- Guru logic strikes again! -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 14:21:35 (EST)
______Selena -:- Guru logic strikes again! -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 14:49:37 (EST)
________Jude -:- Guru logic strikes again! -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 15:16:03 (EST)
______John -:- Guru logic strikes again! -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 14:56:19 (EST)
________Jude -:- Guru logic strikes again! -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 15:19:46 (EST)
__JW -:- Magic Money!!! -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 13:50:22 (EST)
____Brian -:- Magic Millennium -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 22:52:23 (EST)
______JW -:- 750,000 years of peace -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 00:02:23 (EST)
__JW -:- Magic Money!!! -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 15:16:12 (EST)
____Toffee -:- Magic Money!!! -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 16:12:37 (EST)
____Selena -:- Magic Money!!! -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:36:23 (EST)
______JW -:- Magic Money!!! -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:40:40 (EST)
________Selena -:- Magic Money!!! -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:49:31 (EST)
__________JW -:- Magic Money!!! -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:59:00 (EST)
__________Katie -:- Premie kids -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 20:13:05 (EST)
____________Keith -:- Premie kids -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 08:05:44 (EST)
______________Katie -:- Premie kids -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 09:44:05 (EST)
______________Robyn -:- Premie kids -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 10:13:19 (EST)
________________Vern the Chihuahua -:- Premie kids -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 13:15:07 (EST)
__________________Robyn -:- Premie kids -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:22:33 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- Magic Money!!! -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 09:20:43 (EST)


Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 11:32:25 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Critical thinking
Message:
Here's what I think:

Humans have evolved with an incredible capacity to think rationally. This is more than a gift, it's our prime feature and the prime factor determinative of our success (i.e. survival) in life.

Some belief systems cannot withstand healthy human scrutiny but 'want' to survive nonetheless. They do this by seducing people into forsaking reason for some other criteria of judgment (feeling, horoscope, 'received wisdom', etc.). These belief systems simultaneously tout their own alternatives to reason and discourage our faith in it.

This is a trick. There is no such thing as 'true understanding' that does not compliment critical thinking. Critical thinking, then, is our shield against deception.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 12:10:03 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Jim
Subject: Critical thinking
Message:
Dear Jim,
What about thumbs!
Really though, I believe what you say and believe it or not I am a religous skeptic. I have had unexplainable experiences which lead me to believe in there being more to this life than the 'seen' reality, the surface stuff. I believe all or most of it is part of our capabilities as humans, the 99% of our unused brain power but what is all that indicative of? I pick and chose from beliefs and spiritual practices as they seem to fit into my personality, changing as I change. I see these beliefs as less important than just knowing there is a lot of neat shit out there to experience. For example I believe in the 'possibility' of reincarnation. How do I KNOW if it exists or not, I don't so I would not make that 'leap of faith'. What reason do I have to do so? None that I can see.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:09:52 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Critical thinking
Message:
Robyn,

There's a really good article in the latest issue of Sketpic Magazine about the fallacy of the open mind. Deals with the ambiguous nature of 'possibility'. Well, the word's not really ambiguous at all but it's used as if it is and thus might as well be.

It's possible that it's going to rain this weekend.

Also:

It's possible that I'm Santa Claus.

Those are two entirely different levels of possibility. The first has some real, viable potential for being true. The second, based no what I know the world anyway, doesn't.

Is it possible that we reincarnate? Yes, but the evidence that we do isn't any more compelling than that for my being Santa Claus. (My understanding is that none of the past life claimants have withstood close examination as anything but frauds). So, while it's possible, it's such a weak possibility and no where near as strong as the opposite hypothesis which is that reincarnation is a false belief. If you really want to be open-minded you need to keep betting on the winner. It's not good enough to say that both hypotheses are 'possible' so you can't decide between them. Their relative strengths dictate that you bet quite strongly on the 'no' hypothesis and relegate the 'yes' to the massive but ultimately uninteresting pile of non-serious possibilities.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:04:16 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Jim
Subject: Critical thinking
Message:
Dear Jim,
First off I think there is a TON of evidence that YOU aren't Santa Clause. Somewhere at the top of the list is the fact that you're Jewish! I also think you're a bit to confrontational to be that jolly old fellow!
I had always, as long as I remember, held that reincarnation was a possibility but then I saw a group of people taped during past lives hypnosis. I watched their faces as the 'saw' themselves in other lives and I began to believe more strongly in the possibility. I have 2 friends that have 'seen' past lives of their own. Have you ever heard about small children speaking forigen languages or similar 'hints' to past lives. I read an article full of those types of evidence. Without having any personal experiences or 'memories' myself I have not made that leap of faith but wonder why I have always had a longing to go to Africa, Ireland, and India and other people have similar desires to see places. I could 'think' of other places I'd like to see but have felt more of an emotional draw to these 3, why is that? I wonder if it is because I have 'been' there before.
I wonder if there is anything you 'belive' in or lean toward beliving in without difinitive proff, since the BM got you, I mean. I'd like to kick him in the ass for spoiling wonderment for you.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:51:59 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Robyn
Subject: Critical thinking
Message:
Hi Robyn,
I have one major problem with those who remember past lives; in order for our brains to remember something, we have to have some input. When we are born, our memories are pretty much a clean slate. Reincarnation involves a different body each time, so how does one carry on the data stored in one brain to the next? It doesn't make any sense. I asked this of someone once and he told me that our 'soul brain' or 'soul memory' carries the information. I find that just a bit too difficult to swallow. Why do you long to visit certain places? Maybe there is some sort of genetic memory, but I really haven't seen any proof of that, either. Perhaps you saw pictures as a child or saw something on TV that is in your subconscious. I always wanted to visit India because my best friend from the first grade on was from there.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:32:21 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Critical thinking
Message:
Dear Micheal,
Hello yourself. I never thought about that brain thing but I was thinking about this right along with my dogs making hundreds of BM's out in the field! Although the 2 have nothing in common, I hope! I have had some input about reincarnation, as I mentioned in the previous post but mostly it is intuitional. I don't do research on things like this because I don't have time, I don't know how Scott and some others do it really. I can't explain other experiences I've had that are unexplainable either. It's Magic! That's it. Really though it is like faith maybe but some of it is based on my own experiences, not the reincarnation stuff but it just sets well with me. I'll have to think about the brain stuff though. Thanks, Micheal.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 19:53:57 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Jim's disguise
Message:
Robyn:

First off I think there is a TON of evidence that YOU aren't Santa Clause. Somewhere at the top of the list is the fact that you're Jewish! I also think you're a bit to confrontational to be that jolly old fellow!

But, it's the perfect disguise!

-Scott
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 19:49:18 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Critical thinking
Message:
Jim:

Reincarnation is actually a 'non-falsifiable hypothesis.' Who gives a damn whether or not it can be verified. What's important is that it can't be falsified, and it is therefore a useless hypothesis.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 13:31:25 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Critical thinking
Message:
Here's what I think:

When I didn't get the job for which I interviewed last week, a co-worker said, 'Oh, that just means it just wasn't your job' (a variation of the, 'It wasn't meant to be' rationalization).

So when my van was stolen this past mother's day, I said to her, 'I guess it just wasn't my van anymore.' (Fortunately, I've been robbed before, so I wasn't too upset).

Learning to think critically has been vital to my healing. Sure, I can drift out of my body any old time, merge with the infinite light--no big deal. The challenge for me has been to learn when it is appropriate to surrender spiritually, physically, and emotionally.

BTW-off topic: I took my son (the one in the closet) to see the Marriage of Figaro last night. What a fabulous experience! Merged with the music. Mozart is god.

Love to all,
eb
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 18:36:49 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Critical thinking
Message:
eb, you have got one incredible sense of humor! Has it always ben so wry? I envy that.
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 10:24:29 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Critical thinking
Message:
Hi eb -
Your post was great. My mother says those things like 'I guess it wasn't YOUR job' all the time, and it drives me nuts (I think she gets those phrases from her AA friends.) One thing that really bothers me about those particular rationalizations are that they are an effective way to stop the person they are directed at from expressing their thoughts or feelings on the subject. This is why my mom does it - she doesn't like conflict.

I really liked what you said about your van (sorry it was stolen, BTW), and I hope I can come up with something like that to say to my mom next time. I'm going to tell my sister the story too - we need it.
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 12:29:50 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Katie
Subject: Critical thinking
Message:
Dear Katie,
I just sent you email but this post reminded me of something I wish I'd included in that email. For Mother's Day this year I carefully picked out a card for my mom. You must be able to relate to that! No lovey, ooye, gooye cards, to fake and unlike our reality. Anyway I found one that did say something about appreciating somethings she had done for me, in my mind that is the admitance and apology she offered me 3 years ago. Our relationship, consiting mostly of phone conversations, has improved during those years but still I had not ever said, I love you. I don't think I have ever said those words to her unless I was a toddler. I've thought about it since her apology but it just didn't feel right and I wasn't going to fake it. I did, in that card, tell her how much it has meant to me that she did that and I signed the card with an I Love You. I spoke with her last night as I thought my dad had surgery, but that is today. She brought up the card and thanked me telling me it meant more to her than I knew. I said, I'm a mom and I do know just how much it means. It was a good conversation even some laughing. Maybe there is hope for the BM yet!
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 14:19:54 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: mothers day card (off topic)
Message:
Hi Robyn - Just a slight addendum. I used to be in a therapy group for adult children of alcoholics (this was formal group therapy, not a 12-step group). Every single person in the group said they looked for Mother's Day and Father's Day cards that just said 'Happy Mother's Day', or 'Happy Father's Day', or were joking, or whatever. It was a hoot - everyone started laughing because we had all thought we were the only ones!

Anyway, I'm glad you can tell your mom that you love her. I have finally been able to do that too.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 19:11:10 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Critical thinking
Message:
Here's what I think:

Rational and critical thinking is our primary asset and should never be discounted. It should be used at least in conjunction with any other 'understanding' and if the 'understanding' does not stand up to critical analysis, it should be highly suspect.

For example, BM and his cult fails in light of rational analysis, and only survives by claims of some sort of 'grace,' undefined 'experience,' or faith. It is highly suspect. And the fact that BM denies the evidence to encourage people to make an informed rational conclusion about who he is (actually associate with them, answer their questions, explain who he thinks he is, admit mistakes and address contradictions, etc) He hampers critical analysis among his followers. Besides, he openly denigrates rational thought and suggests that his followers discount or ignore it as 'mind.'

I have only one caveat to this, and I'm not sure how to even express it. It may have to do with timing. I think it's possible to 'know' something even before you have figured out how to think about it. For example, I think it's possible to sense and 'know' that some person or situation is dangerous to your survival, but not be able to rationally say why. I think this is because there isn't time to do that because you might might need to act before you can stop and analyze. This might be more along the lines of 'instinct,' and it might also be a rational analysis made so quickly that you aren't aware it has happened.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 19:21:21 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Critical thinking
Message:
JW,

I agree, the whole mental process is really subtle and really I don't know much about it at all. I do think, however, that when there's time to think about something, thinking's good and not to be discouraged. There's been so much misguided, new-age anti-rationalism in our time. I think that's really unfortunate; I'm sure you do too.
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 09:41:43 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: JW
Subject: Critical thinking
Message:
Dear Joe,
I think it's possible to 'know' something even before you have figured out how to think about it. For example, I think it's possible to sense and 'know' that some person or situation is dangerous to your survival, but not be able to rationally say why. I think this is because there isn't time to do that because you might might need to act before you can stop and analyze. This might be more along the lines of 'instinct,' and it might also be a rational analysis made so quickly that you aren't aware it has happened.
I mentioned some time ago about a therapist who told me I'd already done the work inside to deal with my mom and now it would just take some time to manifest in my life, maybe that is similar to what you say here. Also maybe it is instinct and maybe it is intuition or maybe both.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 19:43:40 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Critical theory
Message:
Jim:

Purely rational thought doesn't 'cut it.' Nor does purely non-rational feelings, commitments, etc. I could get into a debate about this, but to my mind if James Buchanan acknowledges that rationality is insufficient we don't have to get into the details. (Ever heard of the 'kidnapper's dilemma?') The work ethic is another problem for rationality because externalities are produced by individuals that are not commensurate with their marginal inputs, although the economy as a whole, or the 'market nexus' benefits and expands. There is also a good case to be made that it is cultural values, rather than rational thought, that holds societies together.

Still, it's hard to imagine that these so-called failures of rationality are really not just failures of the narrowness of our definition of what constitutes rational discourse. Social scientists and social philosophers have been trying to amend and expand the definition, beginning probably with Weber. The most recent contributions are those of Jurgen Habermas, in 'Critical Theory' and the 'Theory of Communicative Action.' They haven't been entirely successful, because it's such a damn difficult job, but even Buchanan has some sympathy for the attempt, and for some of their progress.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 20:21:35 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Critical theory
Message:
Scott,

When you said:

Still, it's hard to imagine that these so-called failures of rationality are really not just failures of the narrowness of our definition of what constitutes rational discourse

you anticipated my answer.

I just think that if there's a subject matter articulable and steady enough that one can actually discuss it, one should do so rationally. Simple.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 09:08:33 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: New archive and Marolyn letter
Message:
For those who haven't yet read Marolyn's letter, it's available for reading online in the newest archive (#6) - Part A.

Happy Wednesday, everyone!
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 03:50:48 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: K , M and a few jokes.
Message:
I watched another video from Amaroo 97 earlier today....
(the forth in the series).
I really tried to pay attention to M's words and everything else.
I wanted to be critical.
But the overwhelming experience was one of realising how wonderfully true and insightful his words were.
He took me once again to a place beyond my analytical mind....and I could only realise again how appropriate and
vitally important this is for me.
But before some of you ex's puke and rebuke.....let me add....that some time after the video I realised that THAT PLACE, as vital as it is (the most important thing of all) must somehow be integrated with everything else.
Yes family matters too .....kids, spouses, friends, mind, body, work, life-style, ex-premie site, doggie jokes, hurt, anger,
the need to be creative, individuality, the need for community, communication,...hey, this is a really amazing multi-dimensional, multi-faceted existence.
So, how does the PLACE Maharaji helps me to re-connect to relate to everything else?
Perhaps this boils down to one big question for me ...and I haven't quite worked out how to ask it yet.
But it's something like ...'why are there not others around Maharaji who could really compliment his effort but in other areas and/or levels of experience? Why are their not others who could express really independently (no clones would really help much), really inspired yet in an individually and uniquely expressed manner, who never-the-less would compliment M's effort?'
Because with so much of the main focus on Maharaji himself(regardless of the value, which I personally feel to be of a very high order) there is a need to both express things in other ways besides M's ....and a need to address the more manifest areas of human existence.
It is this type of question I shall be trying to ask.
Someone rang me today(fairly high in the EV structure) and encouraged me to ask my questions of certain persons who have access to Maharaji when I get a chance in a week or so.
I agree with something I think Carol said recently.
I too don't like secrecy unless it is really necessary, which it is sometimes.
My final word for this post ...
I would enjoy more jokes.....and perhaps more talk about Astrology, Tarot, I.Ching, Alchemy, Kabbalah, Mysticism,
other Gurus and how to infuriate people like Jim and still foster friendship?
What A dreamer I am!
BTW....Katie, in case you are reading this post.....
Is your rising sign Sag or Scorpio?
Warm regards to all(even Jim),
Keith
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 04:03:41 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: a few jokes.
Message:
Do infants have as much fun in their infancy as adults do in adultery?
If 'con' is the opposite of 'pro,' then what is the opposite of
progress?
Why is lemon juice mostly artificial ingredients but dishwashing liquid
contains real lemons?
How much deeper would the ocean be if sponges didn't grow in it?
Why buy a product that it takes 2000 flushes to get rid of?
Why do we wait until a pig is dead to 'cure' it?
Why do we put suits in a garment bag and put garments in a suitcase?
Why doesn't glue stick to the inside of the bottle?
Do Roman paramedics refer to IV's as '4's'?
Whose cruel idea was it for the word 'lisp' to have an 's' in it?
What do little birdies see when they get knocked unconscious?
Why doesn't Tarzan have a beard?
If man evolved from monkeys and apes, why do we still have monkeys and
apes?
Is the main reason Santa is so jolly because he knows where all the
bad girls live?
Should you trust a stockbroker who's married to a travel agent?
Is boneless chicken considered to be an invertebrate?
Do married people live longer than single people or does it just SEEM
longer?
If all those psychics know the winning lottery numbers, why are they all

still working?
Isn't the best way to save face to keep the lower part shut?
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left
_____Why does Keith send regards to people who wish he would disappear?(meant for the meanies amongst you).
Regards Keith.
________________________________________________
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 09:49:49 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Keith
Subject: a few jokes.
Message:
Dear Keith,
Very funny. One comment on the glue line. I don't know if you know what super glue is but it is very liquidy and clear but very strong and you can glue your skin together if you aren't careful. For some reason I can't use the stuff more than once because it does ALWAYS glue itself shut for every after one use. I know this doesn't happen to most people and I don't know what I am doing wrong but I usually wait untill I have many things to glue before opening a bottle!
Robyn
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 07:44:09 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Keith
Subject: K and M
Message:
I watched another video from Amaroo 97 earlier today...
I really tried to pay attention to M's words and everything else. wanted to be critical.
[snip] But the overwhelming experience was one of realising how wonderfully true and insightful his words were.

If Maharaji were to confine his words to Knowledge, peace, feeling good, etc - or just blather on about life in general - he would be at worst a benign force and at best the encouraging person premies view him as being.

But you watched an EDITED video. More importantly, you watched a video that consisted of just Maharaji. Does it really surprise you that you connect your internal experiences (and any sense of awareness of the world around you) as being one and the same with the only person you ever listen to orate on these matters?

We called it satsang once. It was what we said and what we listened to. It was also what we thought when we weren't meditating. Now it's called Maharajij, and premies confine its origination to that single human being.

Nobody else does it for you? Be honest. Who else do you actually listen to?? You have the Maharaji series. Any by Satpal Maharaj? He talks about the same thing you know, and was sitting at Shri Hans' knee when Prempal wasn't even born yet. If time around the 'Satguru' is beneficial, don't you think Satpal had a greater exposure to spiritual insight than Prempal (little brother) did? So why don't you investigate the one who was older than 8 years old when Dad keeled over?

Satpal is revealing the 'great gift' without as many hooks as his little brother puts into it. I got an email from someone yesterday who has been an aspirant for over two years! This at a time when only 366 carefully chosen people in the US and Canada were bestowed the 'great gift' by Prempal in the last year. What do you want to bet that they are all contributing to his 'mission' now? What do you think is the criteria in the West now? And why doesn't the person who wrote to me deserve to share your beneficial experience of the 'great gift'?

It's one thing to look inside and see something of value. That's called self-perception. It's another to attribute that value to another person. That's called self-deception.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 08:19:56 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: K and M
Message:
Brian,
Two points I'd like to make in response to your post.
Firstly , I know that these particular videos only have minimal editing ....because I was there for the 'live' event.
The only thing that I think was edited were a couple of jokes that were obviously considered 'R' rared.
And as for the fact that only Maharaji shares what used to be called sat sang.....I agree with you ...and this is indeed one of the questions I have that I want an answer too.
Personally I cannot accept the 'logic' of having such a one man show.....and feel that the focus on maharaji to the exclusion of everyone else is unhealthy and ultimately counter-productive.
This will turn into a religion despite M's not wanting it to unless some power sharing occurs. Anyway this is my opinion and I shall express this and other concerns I have whenever I have an opportunity in premie gatherings.
I refuse to be suppressed or placed into a catagory of a mind-infested premie.
Wish me luck!
Regards Brian.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 08:32:24 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: A third point
Message:
Brian,
after reading your post again I would like to respond to another issue.
We (my premie wife and I ) do listen to others.
Our book shelves have a really broad range of books on spiritual, philosophical, metaphysical, psychological and health subjects by many different authors.
And I have heard many views expressed from many people who have never even heard of M .
Again I agree that premies should be exposed to more powerful influences than just maharaji.
Now I'm going to go to bed.
It's 10.30 pm here,
Goodnight Brian,
Keith
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 09:03:48 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: K and M
Message:
Keith:

I just can't agree that Maharaji has much insight or inspiration. I recall a program at Amherst where I just did my damnedest to try and concentrate of what he was saying. I really wanted to understand but my brain just kept going numb. Instead of completing a concept with something relevant to real life, he always said something that was self-referenced. The effect on me was to cause me to 'lose touch' not only with the world, but with myself. I was also very influenced by the fact that I could not make Knowledge, itself, relevant to anything. I think I said in an earlier post that it was beautiful, but 'non-sentient.' At a certain point in my 'journey' I realized that if that were the case then it really didn't matter whether I meditated or not.

Maharaji is very adept at his particular form of non-logical discourse. He share with Deepak Chopra the ability to peanut-butter over the really serious problems of existence. He makes various assertions about the nature of that existence that are not falsifiable, mostly because they are so imprecise. People have a very positive response to Chopra, but he bothers me. I don't believe that his version of cosmology is valid, for one thing, and it bugs me that he states it as a given. And even if his perspective turns out to be largely valid, that fact that he uses very flawed reasoning to make the connections to real life seems very dangerous and destructive. Thomas Jefferson he is not! In other words, if everyone shared his belief system the result would be chaos rather than a viable society. I just don't think you have the capacity to be sufficiently critical. There is an excellent essay on Chopra on David Lane's website. Much of it is applicable to Maharaji, although not all. You might learn something by reading it.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 09:07:55 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Sorry about the typos
Message:
Sorry about the typos in that last piece. I had made the changes and then accidentally hit the 'post' button instead of the 'submit' button. I don't know why Brian can't write a program that reads my mind. Deepak Chopra says he should.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 19:22:42 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: coopmtncarol@hotmail.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: David Lane's website?
Message:
Mind posting that to me? Carol
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 02:38:44 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: David Lane's website?
Message:
Carol:

Click on this link to go to David Lanes site:

The Neural Surfer
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 09:57:25 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Keith
Subject: K and M
Message:
Dear Keith,
I can't remember how long you have been involved with BM but you must realize that there was power sharing years ago and it was ended doesn't that just scream FRAUD to you! It doesn to me.

Personally I cannot accept the 'logic' of having such a one man show.....and feel that the focus on maharaji to the exclusion of everyone else is unhealthy and ultimately counter-productive. This will turn into a religion despite M's not wanting it to unless some power sharing occurs. Anyway this is my opinion and I shall express this and other concerns I have whenever I have an opportunity in premie gatherings

Robyn
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 11:03:11 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: It takes more than luck, Keith
Message:
Keith,

You should read the Guru Papers cover to cover. Read it and really think about it. There are all sorts of obvious cues about Maharaji that seem to go right by you. Believe me, you are so far from out of the woods, as I see it, that one day, if you ever do actually free yourself of this cult, you'll look back to this particular stage you're at as near mile zero.

By the way, some of those jokes were really funny and some incredibly stupid. Some aren't even jokes. Where'd you get them? Do YOU think they're all funny? Is this some kind of rorshach test?
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 10:56:53 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Good point, Brian
Message:
Brian,

You're really right there. If premies gave satsang like they used to, and these 'spiritual discourses' were videotaped, they'd have the same mind-numbing affect Maharaji's satsang has. That's obvious to anyone who was around before Maharji muzzled his flock. We all gave satsang and we all had the 'satsang' experience listening to each other drone away. It wasn't just the 'Holy Family', it was any initiator or premie who wanted to get up there and stoke the coals a bit. Just like your basic Christian ministry stuff; if you want to take it up and start blabbing about the 'good book', if you've got a schtick of any kind -- a gimmick, a story, an approach, something for your audience to grab on to -- you'll start pulling 'amens' out of a believer's audience as soon as you're out the gate.

Imagine if Maharaji had maintained Raja Ji's divinity? What if a third of the videos were him? (If he talks like he used to I guess you'd have a whole industry making multilingual subtitles or something). What if Marolyn did a third? What if David Smith had his series? How about Tim Gallwey? The Tim Gallwey 'Inner World of Knowledge' series?

Excellent point, Brian.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 13:35:35 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: K and M editing
Message:
I remember in 96 Long Beach, someone shouted out for M to stay 'All Night Long'
Remember that one? They had a song?
He responded 'We're not having sex here you know'
I remember it because the crowd went nuts laughing and applauding and cheering. ick.
Anyway, I bought the tape later and that part was edited out. Gone. Guess he had second thoughts about that one.
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 04:36:08 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Bear Joke
Message:
I've got to tell you all a joke M told at Amaroo last year. Actually it was extremely hot and there were lots of things that bugged me at the time which I won't go in to. The magic wasn't there for me much, but I thought..well I don't think I thought at all. I felt like the bad girl who doesn't get their present from santa. When I looked in his eyes at darshan, he looked just like my therapist (the tough one). I kid you not, he just met my look totally, and my look was depressed, pain, deep in the mire. Like my therapist used to look at me when I walked in the room really deeply depressed. It's a mirror look. Is that what they call the darshan look? someone had told me about holy breath so I really looked at him as I was approaching, and then I asked for it, and as I passed he gave it to me. I bawled outside. Afterwards someone told me there was a camera right at the point where you are there with him, to record your face. I dont think I will appear on a video. anyway, like I said once before, I thought he was brilliant because out of all those people he had the kindness to give me what I asked for (whether he believed it or even I did, I didn't know but it was like a token - you know?) (And as someone here said, yes that is like a simple human kindness, not like god...)
Anyway, big rave aside, here is the joke:
a man goes down to the woods with a gun and sees a bear and shoots at it. he thinks he hits it and goes to see. the bear taps him on the shoulder and makes him get down on his knees and...you know. He gets mad and gets another gun and goes back and the same thing happens. shoots, misses, the bear taps him on the shoulder...
the third time, the same thing happens, but when the bear taps him on the shoulder he (male bear of course) says: 'you're not really in this for the hunting, are you?'
He used this to illustrate people getting themselves in their own mess, self-created pain and suffering.
But that story could be used to illustrated other points, too, don't you think? for example, I mean, cults.
By the way Selena, there was one other point about 'getting rid of people which my mind conveniently 'got rid of' - it was that I do it not only when people are getting close, but when they are starting to get to know me and maybe actually care about me.
Phew! Do you relate to that bit too?
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 09:58:33 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Jude
Subject: Bear Joke
Message:
Dear Jude,
By the way Selena, there was one other point about 'getting rid of people which my mind conveniently 'got rid of' - it was that I do it not only when people are getting close, but when they are starting to get to know me and maybe actually care about me.

I hope you can use the forum to help you through this one! It is pretty safe here as no one is going to be calling you or asking you to spend time with them etc, but it is obvious that many of us here, including myself, like you and care. When I read you first posts I was worried, conserned for/about you. You quickly dispelled those fears and have grown in my opinion to a thoughtful, seeking person just trying to get by with a little understanding like most of us, probably all of us! As you 'show' yourself you cause me to care more about you. Now I hope knowing how I feel doesn't make you back off but I just wanted you to know my feelings. I probably would send you running in real life though as I am a hugger and just wish I could give you a big squeeze right now!
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 14:54:51 (EST)
From: Pajama Man
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: Bear Joke
Message:
Jude,
Hey, I know that joke! Heard it years ago. Maharaji said this at a program? And he let's 8 year olds come to his program? Nice...
VP
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 19:00:34 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: Bear Joke
Message:
uh, does that joke mean what I think it does? and here I was feeling sleazy for posting about the band name - Thick Richard.

I have to admit I found it funny.

Thanks for writing Jude. You really caught my attention about that getting rid of people stuff. The first time I did it was in 9th grade, i blew off this close girlfriend I had had for 3 years. And, you know how much friends mean at that age. I know now why I did it and continued to do it for years. It's because I hated myselg. All the trauma I had sustained had left me with no self esteem and so if anyone loved me, I naturally decided to get rid of them because I didn't deserve that love. And I feared they would go away, I was sure of it, so I did it to them before they could do it to me. I still have a lot of that crap in me. But, I have had a job for 12 years with the same people, and I am very extroverted and have made many frieds among them. they can't go away since we are all stuck here together - so they have backed off and then forgiven me. It's been a wonderful learning experience. Also, of course, my husband. He has been so kind and understanding, he wouldn't go away and I sure tried my best!

Hang in there. We are in for a ride but at least we know it.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:49:07 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: gotta wait toooo long...
Message:
See, here's one place where the logic breaks down for me. This person who wrote you has been an aspirant for that long? But M is gonna spread the K to the whole world? He is sincere in this? Ok...
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 09:32:33 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@Mail.trib.net
To: Keith
Subject: K , M and a few jokes.
Message:
Hi Keith -
Selena is sending me some relatively recent videos and I'm interested in watching them and comparing my experience with yours. I realize that I am strongly pre-disposed against Maharaji but I have listened to lots of his satsang in the past (20 years ago). I'll be interested to see if and how it's changed.

Katie

P.S. The jokes were pretty funny. I get a LOT of jokes via e-mail and usually trash 99% of them, but yours appealed to my sense of humor. Also, FYI, my rising sign is officially Sag (1 degree). Saturn is at O degree Sag. I don't know how absolutely accurate my time of birth is since it was a difficult birth so I suppose my ascendant might easily be Scorpio.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 09:43:14 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Keith
Subject: K , M and a few jokes.
Message:
Dear Keith,
What a nice post, except of course for the glowing parts about M! Thank you. Those things you suggested sound good but I really don't think they are on BM's agenda. Good luck in your search for truth.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:01:47 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: the respondee's
Subject: K , M and a few jokes.
Message:
Hello Robyn,
Can't help you with the glue problem....that's a sticky one!
Hi Scott,
All I can say is ......that 'numbed out' space that M's talks bring you to.....is for me a really positive experience......although, it is not numbing for me .......rather super-alert.
I would like to quote some of the last video I saw (Amaroo 97) and really get into a ddep analysis of M's statements...if you or anyone else is interested. Let me know.
Jim,
Don't like my jokes eh?
Not much about me you like it seems.
Ah well(sob, sob......which of course could mean son of a bitch)
one can't win them all......god bless you my son ....anyways!!
Dear Katie(your born on 11th of May after all),
I'm glad someone likes my jokes(you too Robyn.......Jim, eat your heart out)...my 'rising sign 'is 5% sag.... although like you I'm not 100% sure of my birthtime.
I also only see Astrology and other occult 'tools' as mediums or catalysts for personal growth. I steer away from prediction,
accept in a very minimal and general way(as in general trend type stuff). I don't do much of this these days....but it's fun talking about it and thinking of Jim writhing about in emotional pain. Honestly though, it's good if we don't take ourselves too seriously all the time!
Regards to you all, Keith
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:06:21 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: K , M and a few jokes.
Message:
Selena,
sorry, I did'nt mean to ignore you.
Let me take this opportunity to say sorry also for insulting you a couple of weeks ago. I feel ashamed that I was feeling so set upon that I lashed out at you.
Maybe you've forgotten but I didn't.
Regards Keith
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:10:16 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: K , M and a few jokes.
Message:
Thank you Keith. See my new thread I just posted. It deals with my lashing out. I do appreciate you writing that.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:23:08 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: K , M and a few jokes.
Message:
Yes Selena,
I did read your new thread-post.
Of course this forum used a little consciously could be viewed as 'plenty good therapy'!
And it's free!
(Thank you Brian, Katie and other helpers once again).
Keith
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:29:41 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: K , M and a few jokes.
Message:
Keith,

I said some of the jokes were great, others were terrible.

I like these:

Whose cruel idea was it for the word 'lisp' to have an 's' in it?
What do little birdies see when they get knocked unconscious?


But these:

If man evolved from monkeys and apes, why do we still have monkeys and
apes?
Is the main reason Santa is so jolly because he knows where all the
bad girls live?


suck.

Sorry.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 17:07:18 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: To Jim.
Message:
Thankyou Jim.(you did find a few of my jokes funny..whooppee)
I shall admit therefore that I do find you mildly witty.....sometimes.
Could this be the start of something big?
I doubt it!!!
Still, it could be worse.
Keith.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 16:05:13 (EST)
From: Jude dont fence me in
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Important
Message:
I think Robyn and Carol have discussed something important in their Tueday thread called 'a question' at the bottom of the page and I am starting this thread to ask others their opinion.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 16:18:27 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jude dont fence me in
Subject: Your first criticism today?
Message:
Hi whoever-just-posted-the-above:

You know, it's one thing to post anonymously. It's another to post hyper-anonymously, that is without any way of being associated with any other posts, past, present or future.

Think about it. First, there's what I think is a slightly rude gesture of preventing people from knowing whose post they're bothering to read. Second, there's the obvious problem of being confused with any other hyper-anonymous posters.

My personal request -- please don't do this.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 17:03:13 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Your first criticism today?
Message:
Sorry, Jim.
I was regretting calling that post 'important' because I realised everyone's posts are important...

didn't even think about the silly name-game, you're right and I must admit it has been tempting along the way to change my post name when I have revealed identifying things about myself and knowledge.

I was referring to a previous post where someone asked me if I was sitting on the fence....

bad game
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 17:25:02 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Do you read me?
Message:
Jim you sound a bit 'tetchy' so maybe I'd better not push my luck with you today but hey, I feel a bit hurt by what you said.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 17:38:40 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: I read you I read you
Message:
Jude:

I don't know why Jim is not as perceptive as I am, but it's obvious he is not. I knew it was you right off the bat since your name appears in the 'From' field. Also, since I was the one who asked about your position in relation to The Fence, I was not confused by your cute reference to The Fence.

Btw, there is a very interesting exchange happening below somewhere. Jack, our current premie in residence, has called Serena a rabid dog!

Yikes!
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 18:02:39 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: John
Subject: I read you I read you
Message:
Dear John,
He also thought I was all over him or some such similar sentement. I don't think anyone here would consider me as one to get all over anyone, maybe I'm wrong. I would like to be able to think of myself as able to get all over someone if I wanted to! I'm really a tough, narly, B____, shhhhh.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 18:25:08 (EST)
From: the rabid dog
Email: None
To: John
Subject: grrrr snap bite
Message:
heh!! That's so cute, I can't wait to read it! but i sure am Glad I read you first John. Maybe I'll wait until after I go running to continue reading.
still laughing though!!
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 18:57:36 (EST)
From: poochie woochies
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: a head's up!
Message:
Jim, watch out. I may be a contender for the Most Hated by Premies on this site. You could lose out (to me) on the Malibu dreamhouse,etc.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 20:05:57 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: Do you read me?
Message:
Hi Jude - I wish you wouldn't feel hurt by what Jim said, cause he obviously didn't know it was you. I didn't either. I'm not as perceptive as John or Robyn! Plus I missed the fence post (sorry - no pun intended). I also find what Carol and Robyn are talking about (forgiving one's parents, whether there are apologies, etc.) to be interesting, and have something to say about it (no time to write it right now). Is that what you wanted to discuss? Or are you wanting to relate it to Maharaji? Could be interesting.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 17:56:11 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Jude
Subject: Your first criticism today?
Message:
Dear Jude and Jim,
I don't really have to know but if either of you care to explain this, I don't understand. I knew it was Jude who posted the thread. What is the problem. Gees, I feel like John!
Robyn

Also Jude, I just posted a response to you and Carol at the bottom of that question thread.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 18:08:32 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Jude dont fence me in
Subject: Important Jude
Message:
Dear Jude,
What exactly are you wanting to discuss here. I think Keith asked the question about the possibility of BM apologizing for all and would that make everything/one feel better and would the ex-premie site dissapear and then I responded to that and Carol to me. Is this what you want to discuss here?
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 18:42:26 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jude dont fence me in
Subject: everyone please fence me in
Message:
Before I hurt someone! And please, no foaming at the mouth jokes!
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 20:23:49 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jude dont fence me in
Subject: So, I'm an idiot? So?
Message:
Okay,

I thought this was an anonymous poster posting to Jude like in:

'Jude, don't fence me in.....'

Sorry.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 05:03:03 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: that's allright Jim
Message:
Jim now that I have your attention and a lot of time has gone by and a lot of water under the bridge, etc - I have a really good, important question for you, not one of those silly ones.

Could I be sued for defamation of character, etc by M for what I have said on this Forum?

By the way I hope you really are a lawyer.

Also, I feel stupid for being so sensitive earlier, and I see you were actually trying to defend me against those foul critics that pop up here a bit, with funny names.

Je suis stupide!
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 10:39:29 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: that's allright Jim
Message:
Jude,

Yes Maharaji could sue you for calling him a liar, cheat, fraud, asshole, womanizer, alcoholic scammer or whatever. He could sue you for suggesting that he was an accessory after the fact to attempt murder in the case of secreting Fakiranand out of the country after the pie incident; he could sue you for suggesting that he somehow unlawfully exploits Elan Vital's money or that he's brainwashed at least one of his kids into worshipping him like the messiah. He could sue you for calling him fat or ugly. Even 'stupid' or 'vapid' could support a suit for defamation. He could sue you for claiming that he's one of the biggest, if stalest, 60s jokes around -- the Living Lord of the Universe, Saviour of Mankind, God in Human Form, fraud of the ... of the Millenium, I guess. He could sue you for that. You ever call him a cult leader? There's another one.

Hope I answered your question.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 10:56:55 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: that's allright Jim
Message:
It sure wouldn't win him many followers though, would it? And it might attract the attention of the IRS.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 12:19:53 (EST)
From: Poochie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: that's allright Jim
Message:
Jim,
Let me echo Jude's comments:
'Also, I feel stupid for being so sensitive earlier, and I see you were actually trying to defend me against those foul critics that pop up here a bit,'
Only one thing to change: insead of 'with funny names' in my case he was giving me the funny name! It backfired cause I like it, I can play with it the way the Cheeseman does.
Speaking of cheese, I stil want to know where I can get a cheese chair, JW.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:22:14 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: that's allright Jim
Message:
Jude,
Anyone can sue anyone for almost anything...IF they can get a lawyer who would pursue it, of course. There is a big difference between suing someone and actually winning a case, though.

Besides, here in the States, truth is a defense for defamation of character. I already said this before you were here, but look at the Carroll O' Conner case.

My cat says 'hello' ;) VP
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:51:50 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: VP
Subject: Vic
Message:
Dear VP,
Hi honey, it's been a long time since I spoke to you here, I think. If that cat is the 'cat' in your pajamas, better keep it to yourself, mister!
Robyn
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 17:44:39 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Hi
Message:
Robyn,
Yeah, you were taking a break for a few days. Things have been hurried in my other life, but I have been able to sneak some peeks from time to time here. I saw where people were talking about the addictive nature of the forum. I think that it is just the social animal in us coming out. Speaking of animals, that Jack is a real prince, huh? ;-) VP
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 04:44:12 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: to VP
Message:
You really liked that silly cat nonsense didnt you?
I'm never going to say anything dumb like that ever again. You are a cheeky pussy.
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 04:46:48 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Cat
Message:
Whoops I should have said 'puss'. I know there are some translation problems with the english languages.
I went to boarding school in england when i was just a little girlie, and i still remember 'wellingtons', though.
does your cat wear the wellies?
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 14:31:07 (EST)
From: Pajama Man
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: Cat
Message:
Jude,
I thought the cat/pajama comment was GREAT! (Not stupid at all) A friend read that thread and said that you had pegged me correctly. I keep mentioning it because it was so good, not because I am making fun of you. (Kind of like David mentions the cheese thing all of the time. Several of us folks had commented to him about his post The Big Cheese, and now we hear about it often. I think it's hilarious.) In fact you have inspired me so much, we are thinking of actually getting a cat now. (May name it Jude, too. IF we don't hame it Durga Ji-just kidding.) Maybe you can get me some Wellies, because I have forgotten what those are. It's in one of my books somewhere...

Hey, did you think I lived in GB? I live in the USA. Do you live in GB? Read 'Three Continents' if you can find it. It is good.

I like your posts a lot, BTW, and I AM cheeky.
VP
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 19:02:35 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Pajama Man
Subject: Cats off topic
Message:
Hey VP, watch it with all this cat stuff! I have two cats and they are reading all your posts somewhat warily. Seriously, they sit on my mouse pad and keyboard and have severely hampered my posting at times. I love all animals (including dogs, of which I have had several, and which my oldest cat adores - he wants to meet Nigel), but cats are probably my favorite animals.

By the way, I am not sure what Jude meant about Wellies (I know about Wellington boots - but is that what you were talking about, Jude?)

Just wondering,

Katie
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 19:30:49 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Cats off topic
Message:
Katie's Cats,
Meow Meow! I used to have a really cool one of you, but he is in kitty heaven now. Used up all of his lives.

Katie,
I want to carry one around while reading War and Peace...seriously, my kids would love one. I wanted to get an English bulldog, a boxer, or a Jack Russell Terrier but the kids have vetoed that idea. VP
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 19:49:29 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Pajama Man
Subject: Cat's Pyjamas
Message:
Ok!
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 14:31:46 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: replacement guru
Message:
Jude asked a question later down in the M and Jack thread. I think it's a very important issue, so I hope people can address this. He (she?) asked:
I wonder what will replace M for me? I gave my answer but it would be nice to hear from the rest of the people.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 16:01:16 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Haven't you heard? I will
Message:
Selena,

I keep forgetting you came late. This whole purpose of this board is to clear the way for me to take my rightful place as the Master of Malibu. We had a bit of a discussion about this -- before the committee was struck -- and I volunteered. I explained that Iknow my way around L.A. pretty well and have a genuine fondness for the Malibu area. In fact, I think I still have few friends there!

So, I can't remember what anyone else said but really, does it matter? I'm in, baby.

Thanks for your continuing support,

Jim
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 16:46:55 (EST)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: replacement guru
Message:
how about ourselves? there is this huge hole
left when we clear from any self-substitute.
Whatever laser-quality concentration or love
we have built up and given to M, the church, or
our favorite hero- needs to go consciously
back into ourself.
That's turning a lemon into lemonade!
Imagine yourself sitting at your favorite program
in the big cheese seat. Let that positive regard longing and belief nourish YOU for a change . Isn't it unbelieveable how good that feels if you really do it? That's the quality experience we've been pissing away ALL THESE YEARS.
From my experience, we've all had some version of rock solid belief in the immortal qualities of at least one living GOD
Well ,IT TAKES ONE TO KNOW ONE.
And that one is us. You. Me. Jude.Us all.
In some roundabout way, nearly everybody on this planet
is addicted to limiting themselves?or giving themselves away.
The most obvious is with a pseudo guru like M who never
re-empowers people. A classic bait and switch. But he's obviously one of many. In fact, more advanced civilizations off planet
say religion is a unique phenomenon to earth.A self limitation cult
is how they see earth.Even if you don't believe in off-planet civilizations,I think that perspective is very compelling.
So for us, its a matter of sleeping gods awake. If we play Gumby or Marolyn Rawat, we create an intermediary, thus TRICKING ourselves out of direct experience.
Surrender to yourself ,believe in your self- the same way you embrace M or J.
Its not blasphemy.
Its a revelation.
Life as intended, for you , the eyes ears and heart,
The living extension in matter, of the absolute.

At least that's my opinion.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:34:58 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: replacement guru
Message:
I vote for either Barbara Hershey or Sigourney Weaver, or perhaps both?
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 23:35:43 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Scott, intellectual women?
Message:
Scott,
Two intellectual women? (Is this a joke?) What is wrong with someone as sexy Leslie Mann, Elizabeth Shue, or Helen Bonam- Carter?
snicker, VP
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 01:07:45 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Scott, intellectual women?
Message:
VP:

Give me a break. It didn't occur to me that they were 'intellectual.' I met Barbara Hershey in the DMV in Los Angeles, waiting to pick up my driver's license. I don't think she was famous then, or just barely. She looked like my girlfriend in third grade, Yvonne (whose mother used to make us chocolate malts). We became a serious couple when we found an old rotten log in her backyard that was infested with termites. It was like discovering an entire miniature civilization. And of course those 'Alien' movies are the epitome of intellect. Almost as cool as the termites. You can see where I'm heading. I'm just weak.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 13:21:10 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Scott, intellectual women?
Message:
I think good women replacement gurus could include:

Katha Pollitt, Molly Ivins, Pat Schroeder (her new book is great, by the way), Bonnie Raitt, Kate Clinton, and for actors, I would recommend Helen Mirren.

I would also recommend Gore Vidal, but, he's a man.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:31:29 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Male replacements
Message:
JW, those were good.
Who is that guy who does the 'You can win'-type personality seminars? Dark skin and hair. Real tall with super white teeth. (Looks like a young 'Lurch' off of the Adams family) He has my vote for number one guru hooey leader. Jim Baker is a possibility. Richard Simmons would be faaaabulous! Also in the running is Newt Gingrich. VP
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:59:51 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Scott, intellectual women?
Message:
Scott,
Everyone always says that to me: 'give me a break.' I was just making reference to your post in which you asked why couldn't anyone say, 'as sexy as Scott T.' It was a lame joke, ok. Ms. Weaver is an ivy league grad. I like B. Hershey, but she seems to make a lot of 'smart' films, unlike Ms. Weaver.

My top list for female Guru replacments would be: this is sarcasm now, everyone...
1) Hillary Clinton (except that it is a little too 'in' to bash her)
2) Oprah Winfrey
3) Cher
4) Anyone making an info-mercial
5) Hyacinth Bucket (for Nigel, David, and the rest of you across the water) VP
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 17:32:45 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Not Bucket
Message:
VP, don't you know? It isn't 'Bucket,' it's 'Bouquet.'

That's my mom's favorite program.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 17:49:20 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Not Bucket
Message:
I think it's pronounced Bouquet, but spelled Bucket, right? The vicer (sp?) calls her 'the Bucket woman'. I can just see David, etc. dressed like the Queen mum now... I feel really sorry for her husband. I can relate to him sometimes. Oh, honey, I didn't mean that, really...no no you are nothing like that dreadful Bucket woman...No your butt is NOT that big...gotta go, I'm in trouble now! VP
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 17:52:09 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Not Bucket
Message:
When I visit my mom we have to watch the show. I can stand about 20 minutes, then I have to leave. It just gets too slapstick.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 18:02:42 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Not Bucket
Message:
Hey, I have to watch it with my in-laws. I'm not kidding. Coincidence. But I do like it, in small doses. I really want a goomraji mug or two to have around when my in-laws come to visit. We can have coffee in them and see where the conversation goes. (I have to watch Face the Nation and Seinfeld with my parents.)
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 18:31:16 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Not Bucket
Message:
Hey, the final episode of ELLEN is on tonight. I understand there is a long list of surprise guest appearances. And tomorrow is the LAST episode of Seinfeld, so you won't have to watch that anymore.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 18:48:46 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Not Seinfeld
Message:
Hi JW - I just want to confess something to everyone on the forum. I have never seen an episode of Seinfeld. I think I have said on here before that we didn't have a TV for a long time (it broke and we never replaced it.) When we did get a new one, we put it in the basement and never got into the habit of watching it. We only watch sports, election returns, or use the VCR to rent movies. I hope you guys don't think I am weird!
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 18:55:38 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Not Seinfeld
Message:
No problem, Katie, that doesn't change our view at all. We already thought you were weird.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 19:05:30 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Not Seinfeld
Message:
Thanks, Joe, I feel a lot better now!
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 19:13:20 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Not Seinfeld
Message:
Sorry, I don't watch much television either, but the few times I've seen Seinfeld, I have found it to be very funny.
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 05:02:09 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Not Seinfeld
Message:
I never watched Seinfeld either, for years. For a long time I didn't have TV reception and just watched videos
I was so serious, I thought TV was a waste of my precious time
Maybe it is - I still don't watch it much except sometimes to go to sleep to (and late is when the interesting stuff comes on)
But a few months ago I started watching, and really enjoying Seinfeld. I finally got it! I finally realised that show is funny!
It is - the series I watched recently anyway. It's fairly old - before they got too successful and bored looking. I like the stand-up bits best, this man (or his writers) are actually very smart people - eg
'you know how we all have to worry about what to wear, well it seems like in the future, everyone got their heads together and decided that we all wear, you know, silver zip-up v-necked latex jump suits and boots! so why don't we do that now, you know, get the designers to all have a vote on what's tasteful, and like have an earth suit...(maybe it was the way he told it?)
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 10:05:03 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jude and JW
Subject: Seinfeld and TV - off topic
Message:
Hi Jude and Joe -
I wasn't saying that I didn't watch Seinfeld on purpose - it just happened. I'm sure it's funny. People talk about it at work and it sounds funny. My husband and I were never really TV people, and because we didn't have a TV for so long we just don't think about turning it on (unless there is a Green Bay Packer football game, or a college basketball tournament...) I was just really surprised when I saw that the 'last episode' of Seinfeld was on the cover of Newsweek, and realized that it wasn't a big deal to me at all.

I have to admit that I get bored when I watch TV. I have to be doing something else at the same time (crocheting, sewing, etc.) (Not watching TV also gives me a lot of time to read all the books that people keep recommending here.)
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 10:44:02 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Katie
Subject: Seinfeld/3rd Rock - off topic
Message:
Dear Katie,
I don't watch to much TV either, no time for that and even before when I did have it on I couldn't just sit there. My house has 3 floors and you have to be in different places to get reception for differnt stations so it is really a committed activity but I do like Seinfeld and use to try to catch it although now I work on Thr. nights. The other show on TV that I think is well worth the committment is Third Rock From the Sun. I think it is on Wed. night but I rarely remember to watch it and I have to be in my bedroom for 1/2 hour to see it and that is hard to do at that hour.
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 19:54:39 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Seinfeld and TV - off topic
Message:
Hi Katie
I am also bored by TV. I'd rather read any day. I did get into the Twin Peaks thing several years ago. (big surprise there, huh?) Kind of an Almanac northwest syle.
For some reason I have been watching Friends a lot this year.
That and South Park, that's it.
Don't know why I thought the whole Forum had to know all this about me. I must have an ego or something. OH NO, not that e word!!
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 10:29:37 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: JW
Subject: Not Bucket
Message:
Dear JW,
Wednesday is my weeknight off and I try to go to bed early, being drained from Mon and Tue's long hours. I heard it was Ellen's last show and I said to myself, I said, I just watch the begining and if it just another sitcome show I'll go to bed but I thought it was very creative and enjoyed the whole thing, reading archives just so I wouldn't feel guilty in staying up so late, 10pm!
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 14:46:53 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Jerry and George
Message:
JW,
I missed Ellen. Was it worth seeing? I read an article on her show in Entertainment magazine. It was pretty interesting. It gave her side of the story and ABC's. I know someone who taped the show, so I can still see it if it's worth the time.

I'm like Jude, I started 'getting' Seinfeld when everyone else was getting tired of it (sort of like the guru thing-haha!). I've seen them in Syndication. My fav episode was the Manzierre or Bro episode. (The man's bra) I also liked the one where the reporter was interviewing Jerry for a student publication and she thought that Jerry and George were gay. ('Not that there's anything wrong with it.') Katie, we will have to tape a few for you. You could sew and still follow Seinfeld without any problem. VP
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 15:25:23 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Jerry and George
Message:
I watched the Ellen show last night, but I'll have to admit I was falling asleep in the second half. There was no laugh track; it was put together to be a spoof on a documentary on Ellen's career. They had some funny writing. They implied that Ellen had been around since the 30s, did a spoof on 'I Love Lucy,' and on a 50s game show (like What's my Line) called, something like 'Name That Commie' sponsored by Millstone Cigarettes ('now with extra nicotine for more pep'). There were cameos by lots of people like Helen Hunt, Mary Steenbergen, Tim Conway, Ted Danson, Glenn Close, and a bunch of others.

The Seinfeld phenomenon is ready to end, and I'm ready to see the hype to done with. That show had really good writing too, but I didn't see very many episodes. Speaking about shows with a gay theme, I thought the show in which Elaine fell for and tried to 'convert' a gay man (but failed) and the subsequent discussion with Jerry about how it's really hard to get someone to defect from 'their team' to 'our team' was really funny.
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 15:52:48 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: JW and Katie
Message:
JW,
That was a good episode. I remember when M*A*S*H went off the air. The Seinfeld hype reminds me of that.
(Off-topic, did I tell you that I am injured and cannot run for a while? I have plantar fascitis. I am bummed out. I am doing rehab excercises for it now. To work out now I have to use the stationary cycle or the stairstepper machine. Talk about Boring.)

Katie,
I don't think you are weird. I hardly ever watch TV anymore. Little folks can keep parents up at strange hours of the night. (Night of the Living Dead...) That's when Seinfeld and Thirtysomething used to come on. VP
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 17:16:10 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Injuries
Message:
Sorry to hear about the plantar fascitis, VP. I had that once, and my foot hurt for about a week and then it went away and it never came back. Hope you heal up fast.

I've actually been working with a personal trainer since February and I am amazed that it appears to be working. I think I always over-trained before (due to my compulsive and goal-oriented attitude) and the personal trainer makes me be much more effective. He wants me to run less than I had been, because I was too lean, sleep more and eat a lot more protein. The result is that I've put on about 15 pounds, which is great, because I always had a hard time gaining weight. Now the collars in my dress shirts are too tight.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:14:30 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Scott, intellectual women?
Message:
Ooooh Scott T.,
I love it when you talk Isoptera. More, more.
eb
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 17:20:37 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: replacement guru
Message:
Well, I thought for sure it would be Seinfeld, but now that is going away too. I hope everyone is planning diligently for the final episode. It's the media event of the year you know.

But, frankly, I think you are better off without a replacement. I mean, why would you? He was pretty much of a raw deal anyway, and why would you ever give over yourself like that to any other human being, especially one you never even met, again? I think most of us exs have learned that lesson.

If you mean the replacing the TIME we spent on BM, I would suggest using the time for all the other stuff in your life that is important to you, especially people you love and who love you, and take time for yourself. What I found after I left being a premie was that I had built up quite a bit of self-hate in the cult. It was pretty easy to get that way, always being told you are nothing without BM, and usually too stupid and confused anyway to accomplish anything. It took a little time, but I did discover that I liked myself and that I'm a valuable human being, not defined by some charlatan fat guy who refuses to see value in any human being, except in relation to himself.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 18:04:50 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Selena
Subject: An aside
Message:
Dear Selena,
I may be wrong but I believe Jude has said she was a woman.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 18:13:07 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Selena
Subject: replacement guru
Message:
Dear Selena,
I do not and feel no need for a replacement guru. I follow my path and whatever conglomerate of beliefs that constitutes. I think it may have been Carol, but I'm so bad at remembering, that said she had a similar path of spirituality. I am open to anything (how I got into BM to start with) and incorporate those things that ring true to me. If I change my mind I discard it but, for me in my spiritual growth as well as my work on myself, it is ever changing/evolving. No ones rules to follow, a...b...c... to get to d.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 18:30:43 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: replacement
Message:
Hi
I really meant we should help Jude with suggestions for replacing the experience, but since you volunteered to be our guru, Jim - My life for you!!

Providing I get to live in Malibu rent free and have people envy me because I sit in the front row at the err, are you going to call them events?
Jude, I did try to help but these guys are hard to control sometimes, (not as hard to control as a rabid dog tho)
I do appreciate the advice though, especially about caring for ourselves for a change. but, where do i get a cheese chair?
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 20:31:10 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Booty bounty
Message:
Just so youse all know what you're getting into, if I take over we're going back to cultic first principles a la Children of God. I always regretted that I didn't get into the right cult and get love bombed all over.

'Events'? How 'bout 'parties'?
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 20:33:32 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Booty bounty
Message:
I think the Rajneeshis might be better. More sex (but ugly clothes) and lots of bullet guns.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 13:54:44 (EST)
From: Paul`
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Program in Miami?
Message:
I understand there was a program in Miami last weekend. Any info?
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 14:44:02 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Paul`
Subject: Program in Miami?
Message:
I have this sick desire to be an undercover premie and go to the events and report on them. too bad there wasn't funding for this position. - what do you say folks?
I can make a wild guess on the event:
A bunch of people went, many dressed in designer clothes and also the hip post-hippie clothes - you know the $100 for a pair of baggy linen pants type clothes? Not as many people there as before, but they got several from other countries so it still looked like a good crowd numbers wise.
They showed several videos, M came out and talked for 30 to 70 minutes, they sang some songs, Daya being the star.
They went back to their hotels. Came back during the day and spent a bunch of money on pictures and videos.
Sat down and watched videos, sang, listened to M talk, watched videos. Left for a few hours, walk on the beach, coffee, food.. maybe tried to pick up someone (people look good to each other when they are 'blissed out' you know!)
They went back in bought more junk from EV watched more videos and M talked again. etc, etc, etc, for the next day and evening.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 15:07:08 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Program in Miami?
Message:
and yes don't forget there's a world-wide net of premies, all over the world there are people who love M, just one big happy family.

Just don't ring up and ask for any favours after you've had your breakdown.

But if you get really thirsty and have no money, a rich premie might take you to see him (if you are one of the ones who do loads of service year after year to keep the whole show on the road)

It's so great to feel taken care of by the magical powers of grace and devotion. the pay-back is a mass hypnotism session where everyone gets to forget all their 'worldly' problems which have been building up so strongly because engaging with them might mean getting attached to this world.
And even though you love seeing all the other premies, you're not attached to them, either. If the master is a mirror, as he has said, what is he a mirror for?
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 17:38:54 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Paul`
Subject: Program in Miami?
Message:
>I understand there was a program in Miami last weekend.

The 3-day event happened.
There will be videos out of all the presentations.
Videos are translated into 40 languages before being shipped around the world.
Selena got a bit right.
I made it to Miami Beach with my girlfriend.
I wore shorts, stayed on the 12 floor of the Ritz overlooking the ocean, had a few parties with friends and bought some copies of the Live at Long Beach music CD, a deck of cards, a beach towel and some other nice stuff.
The crowd was diverse and interesting as usual.
I got to meet a few new people including OP.
M gave very good deliveries of his talks and appeared to be quite alive and ready for the tour he is undertaking.
Of course he talked about the fundamental importance of the experience of peace inside and wove in some good stories to illustrate his points.
He mentioned the negative stuff being written about him but didn't dwell on it.
He acknowldegded the effort of all the people that make the events happen in words and with some video clips.
He talked about being on your kids side.
A couple stories and jokes were told that sparked my girlfriend into rolling with laughter.
We both learned something and had a wonderful time.
I see a bright future.

M is giving a talk today in Montreal.

Have fun and feel the optimism inside,
CD
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:25:24 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Program in Miami?
Message:
He mentioned the negative stuff being written about him but didn't dwell on it.

What 'negative stuff' has been written about him? Since I am aware of nothing being published in any print media, I assume he means this website. Did he say that, or was he referring to something else?

I'm very glad you had a good time in Miami, CD. What is on the beach towel? I doubt it's a picture, is it? I mean the thought of sitting your ass on his face is not pleasant, nor very dignified. Maybe it IS of his face and it says, like t-shit I saw recently: 'This face seats five.' Sorry everyone.

Is his face on the backs of the cards, too? Or is it a swan or something?

Did Daya sing songs?
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 20:13:19 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Program in Miami?
Message:
>I'm very glad you had a good time in Miami, CD.

Thanks JW.
I had a great time!

>1. What is on the beach towel?
>2. Or is it a swan or something?
>3. Did Daya sing songs?

1. Tasteful decorations on golden-yellow towel - sound good - g ?
2. Dual Swan Logo (DSL) with special Ace - good guess JW
3. The video of a solo song where Daya plays piano and sings was shown.

FYI
Wadi (Premlata) wrote and sang the last song on the Live at Long Beach music CD. Does a good job singing.
The upcoming video will have the details of what was said by M.

Happy trails,
CD
roasted by the sun, refreshed in a calm Atlantic - Miami 98
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 20:31:37 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Program in Miami?
Message:
So, CD, what did M say about the negative things written about him?

Also, didn't Daya sing live at the program?

Did M give darshan at this program?
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:15:44 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: CD
Subject: Program in Miami?
Message:
Dear CD,
Also glad you had a good time. I just posted about the good times I had in Miami years ago. It seems odd that all these people spend effort, time and money to see M and although you to see him speak you also have to watch videos. I find that appauling! Obviously it doesn't affect you in the same way. The videos made of the event, do they tape the videos, just kidding, I hope. NO ONE gives satsang but BM? He is the ONLY one to speak at these things, yuck, IMHO! Were you into this when regular people were allowed to speak? Doesn't this video existance seem distant, controled, one dimensional in comparison?
Robyn
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 16:30:30 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Taping the videos
Message:
Robyn,

That is really much funnier than shit. Can you imagine?
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 23:02:14 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Program in Miami?
Message:
Chris,

What did M say that was so funny? I'd love to hear a new M joke.

[Why did Maharaji cross the road?

A: Who said he crossed the road?
A2: Who wants to know? Where are you coming from, asking a question like that?
A3: The answer's inside.
A4: I already answered that, you must not have been listening.
A5: Well, that's a pretty negative question, isn't it?
A6: Because his mother made him do it.
A7: Because Bob Mishler made him do it.
A8:
A9: ]
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 04:16:46 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Program in Miami?
Message:
A8: He didn't, someone drove him.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 12:44:47 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Does anyone remember...
Message:
...the story that M used to tell about an old man in a village who had all these children and grandchildren, and they used to harass him all day long. One day they all thought this old man had died, but he really had not died and so when he showed up again in the village all the relatives again surrounded this guy and made his life miserable with all their demands on him.

And that's all I remember about the story. Anyone else remember this?

I clearly remember though that the message of the story was that life is a hassle, families are a hassle, family committments are a pain, and we all just want relief from all these demands that come from these attachments in our lives.

I was thinking about that story seeing all the moral indignation that erupted about Marilyn's letter. The fact is the guru taught to only respect him. All else is maya, an illusion, a joke, of no significance! He never taught to respect your spouse or your children. In fact, his message was just the opposite. There is no point in respecting or loving anyone but Guru Maharaj Ji.

Since I'm on the subject..does anyone remember that story about the guy who lusted after a woman more than his guru? I don't remember it exactly but the woman he craved was herself a great saint and she taught him a lesson by giving him, as a present, a pail of diahhrea. Because of course that's all our bodies are, right? The message in that is fairly clear: Your spouse is, in essence, a pile of shit!

What a profound message of love and understanding and wisdom!
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:24:10 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Does anyone remember...
Message:
And later Jude asked 'what is bm a mirror for?'
Perhaps we should ask, 'what are the premies a mirror of?'
No wonder there is so much dysfunction and passive-aggressive behavior amongst the chosen ones. They have been taught by the best of them.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:35:28 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Does anyone remember...
Message:
I remember the pail of diahhrea story. That one is kind of hard to forget. The image is just so...hmmm...vivid! It seemed to me somebody like Gurucharanand told that story, but I'm not sure, maybe BM did.

As I mentioned down below, do you recall that program in which BM said that there was a 'population explosion' among premies because he was seeing so many kids coming through the darshan line with their parents? I heard he was really complaining about it.

To hear BM talk, in his Hindi philosophy, life was a horrible burden, and all the stuff around you, including your own family, spouse, kids, etc. were just in the way. I assume he has toned that down in later years.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:01:05 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Does anyone remember...
Message:
I remember something about how each darshan (kissing the tootsies, not just being in the presence) would erase 10,000 lifetimes worth of karma. We routinely carried the kids through darshan and assisted them in kissing those holy lotus feet. (Teach Your Children). They don't remember it; they don't even remember all those looong road trips (Selena, I have an appreciation of Texas as well), but they both think it's all rather funny and kind of 'cool' in a way.
eb
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 17:24:59 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Where are they?
Message:
Does anyone here know what happened to the ex-initiators....Arthur Briggan and Maria Isabel?
(sorry if I have mis-spelt their names).
Keith.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 17:36:54 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Where are they?
Message:
I think OP said some time ago that Arthur Brigham lives in Europe. That's the guy our friend John referred to as 'Mahatma Pompousassanand.' Which I think is an excellent and very fitting name.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 23:30:50 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Burglar...
Message:
Hi Everyone,

I thought this was pretty funny.

> >Late one night, a burglar broke into a house that he thought was
> >empty.  He tiptoed through the living room but suddenly he froze in
> >his tracks when he heard a loud voice say: 'Jesus is watching you.'
> >
> >Silence returned to the house, so the burglar crept forward again.
> >'Jesus is watching you,' the voice boomed again.  The burglar stopped
> >dead again. He was frightened. Frantically, he looked
> >all around. In a dark corner, he spotted a bird cage and in the cage
> >was a parrot. He asked the parrot: ' Was that you who said Jesus is
> >watching me?'
> >
> >'Yes,' said the parrot.
> >
> >The burglar breathed a sign of relief, then he asked the parrot: '
> >What's your name?'
> >
> >'Clarence,' said the bird.
> >
> >' That's a dumb name for a parrot,' answered the burglar.  ' What
> >idiot named you Clarence?'
> >
> >The parrot said, ' The same idiot who named the Rottweiler Jesus.'
> >
> >

GAGBWY

-gumby
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 00:00:58 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: The Burglar...
Message:
Gumby,
I heard that at church yesterday! Did you read about the little boy(12) whose nickname has always been 'Pokey' who has a web site of www.pokey.org (I think). The toy co. that makes Gumby and Pokey was threatening a lawsuit if he continued to use the name. He was saved from having to change it by the man who is the originator of the characters, who thought it was just fine! Carol
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 01:06:28 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: The Burglar...
Message:
Hi Carol,

Thanks for your reply. I just checked out the pokey site. Pretty good story. It even mentions the 'Spirit of Gumby' being invoked, whatever that might mean. :) Hope all is well with you.

GAGBWY

-gumby
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 23:02:23 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Magic Money!!!
Message:
I received a thank-you card from Elan Vital today for financial contributions made to them in 1997. It didn't come to me directly, but was forwarded to me by a recent ex-premie who is still on the EV junk-mail list. I just had to share this with those of you (like myself) who, sadly enough, just don't contribute to Maharaji's mission like we used to.

Card Front A quote by Maharaji himself:

'You have a heart and it has a voice, a sense of purpose.
It has a request. Listen to that request.
'

Inside Left A statement from a real-life anonymous Elan Vital spokesperson:

'In a year in which Maharaji accepted invitations to speak at 147 events in 34 cities around the world, your heartfelt support has made a genuine difference. Your contribution has enabled him to touch the hearts of hundreds of thousands of people.

From New Delhi in April to Long Beach in December, Maharaji's busy schedule encompassed North and South America, Europe and Africa, Asia and Australia. To highlight but a few of the memorable events, he addressed an international audience at a three-day event in Long Beach, California; 5,5000 people at a public event in Wembly, England; and attended a four-day outdoor event in Amaroo, Australia with participants from 61 countries. A record 17,113 people received Knowledge, including 3,554 in the largest single session in New Delhi. In the United States and Canada, 366 people received Knowledge in three sessions, and still many more are aspiring.

1997 was a remarkable and inspiring year. 1998 offers each of us fresh challenges and opportunities. Our combined efforts will again help Maharaji to personally deliver his messgae, heart to heart, all over the world.

Your generosity and the consistency of your support, no matter how large or small, lay the foundation for continued growth. As Knowledge becomes increasingly more available around the world, a special appreciation is extended to everyone who participates.

Thank you once again.'


Inside Right A picture of Maharaji himself along with another quote:

'Sometimes we forget what it means when we make a little effort - what it means to people all around the world. It is a contribution towards spreading joy in the world, and when you do that, you cannot measure it on a scale. It happens however it happens. It goes from person to person, from one heart to another.'

Card Back Magic Money quotation from Maharaji:

'Progagation does not happen because you make it happen. It happens because there is magic, and the magic will always be there. The invitation is for you to join the magic, if you want to, it is up to you.'

Whatta guy!! Send in more Magic Money now, premies. Your efforts are much under-appreciated by the entire world, and the Little Lord who only wants to spread that joy personally - however it may happen. Just don't expect a thankyou in the Big Talker's own words is all. Remember - you owe him EVERYTHING. He owes you squat.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 01:54:48 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Brian, you've crossed the line
Message:
Brian,

Just a day after mother's day (and Katie and my mom's birthdays!), a day when gifts and cards really mean something. I don't know about you, Brian, but even I have my limits. Frankly, it disgusts me that you would post this expresion of gratitude directly from Maharaji and Elan Vital itself. You didn't give any money and neither did I. But some people did and for them I'm sure that really meant something.

This just has to be the beginning of the end for this whole ex-premie 'mind experiment'. The moral high ground? I guess we never had it. But now, I'm just so ashamed.

I'm going to go back to Maharaji and Bal Bhagwan Ji.

Why can't we all just get along with one another?
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 08:41:23 (EST)
From: Cheddar
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Jim
Subject: Brian, you've crossed the line
Message:
My spirit guides say you're right JIm and your Tarot shows an auspicious time, together with what the Rune stones say. Also King Henry VIII in my knee says we should all try and get along and try to forget past differences. Anne of Cleeves in my elbow agrees with him.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 16:42:30 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Jim
Subject: Brian, you've crossed the line
Message:
I agree, Jim; this site is becoming just too revealing. First you post Marolyn's letter, and now Brian is posting a very private thankyou and request for more money. I want to know why this wasn't investigated by the Elect first? I was not called to the Fortress of Solitude to discuss this card! Now the credibility of the entire site is called into question once again!!
Another thing: after reading Bal Bagwanji's site, I had a recovered memory. Back when Sri Hans made his transition, I was a young boy on Okinawa. I now remember coming home from school and sitting in the living room and all of the sudden it was like I was everywhere! Then a voice said, 'You are he.' That night, as I was trying to sleep, some old Indian guy with a flower garland stood at the side of my bed and said, 'Mickey, you are Satguru; not Sat Pal, and not Prempal; just you, Mickey Pal.' So, you all owe me your devotion and magic money. I'll post my sacred address later.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 20:40:09 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Hilarious for a Christian
Message:
Actually, Mickey, that would be funny even if you weren't a Christian.

There's hope for you yet. (Sorry, gumby -g!)
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 08:13:39 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Magic Money!!!
Message:
Brian:

It is truly sad that the apparent propagation rate in the US and UK is only 2% of that in India, while we are clearly providing a much larger share of contributions. Are we really getting our money's worth? Apparently those of us in the West simply are unable to see a real good thang for what it is.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 08:51:16 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Scott T.
Subject: Magic Money!!!
Message:
This doesn't bode well for the Millennium. There were 366 people falling for the scam in the United States and Canada, and there were only 3 Knowledge sessions there. Definitely a bit of a slide in enrollment. Yet they still seem to maintain the pretense that this isn't the case in an effort to extract more donations from premies in the West:

'As Knowledge becomes increasingly[??] more available around the world...'

Only a complete boob would believe this statement and EV's own words at the same time. I wonder how many thankyou cards were mailed out to the Third World premies? Think it covered postage?

BTW, I also received an application for continued donations through the year of our Ex-Lord 1998. He is accepting checks, money orders, and travelers checks. Premies are able to make donations via monthly withdrawals from their checking accounts done automatically by EV (how thoughtful). The authorization is open-ended and requires a 'thirty days written notice to terminate or amend this agreement'.

Alternately, people are allowed to charge their donations to Visa, Mastercard, or American Express cards.

The application also contains this notation:

'For gifts of stocks and other property, you may contact Elan Vital.'

Anyone having any extra stocks or other property lying around that they're tired of can get the address from me. It's the least I can do.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 08:59:02 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Brian
Subject: Magic Money!!!
Message:
Dear Brian,
I think Ched and I should discuss the posibility of donating those living in our appendages and joints. It may not be as good as money but think of the service they could do! I know that cowboy in my foot is hankerin' for some hard work! Is that a ranch BM owns in Argentina?
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 11:05:45 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Life Insurance
Message:
Brain,
Do you think that M would allow me to include him in my life insurance policy? Ha! That stuff makes me sick. When I got the latest mailing, I was amazed by how slick EV has become. I remember DLM as being much less organized. Guess things are evolving everywhere. VP
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 12:29:48 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Life Insurance
Message:
I really do know someone who said they were going to put Mr. Rawat as the benificiary on their retirement program. I was mad because hell, if someone's going to waste money they should give it to me, don't you think?
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 13:30:15 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Selena
Subject: Selena
Message:
Dear Selena,
I just wanted to tell you, since I've been off the forum pretty much for a few days, that your post about Marylon's (sp?) letter was very much like how I feel about it. Thank you for writing it. I can understand how people like Still felt to although that was not my gut reaction. I saw it more as a sad comentary on where she is in her life. Seems very diluted and denying her sadness.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 14:15:27 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Selena
Message:
Hi Robyn,
I noticed you were gone for a while. Too bad this forum doesn't have a chat type thing - hey Brian, it's only a 'little' more work and programming right :-)
Yes, the letter. I get chills imagining Marolyn's life.
She always seemed so out there to me, kind of a victim type.
Back in the early 70's that kind of spacy yin thing was considered cool or sexy or something.
We've come a long way haven't we ladies?
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 09:49:53 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Guru logic strikes again!
Message:
Here is a perfect example of how clear (sarcasm!) M's message is:

'Progagation does not happen because you make it happen. It happens because there is magic, and the magic will always be there. The invitation is for you to join the magic, if you want to, it is up to you.'

Doesn't this mean that each one of us is totally unnecessary? Which of course was my understanding when I was a follower: there was nothing any of us could actually do, it was all grace, the grace of M that made propogation happen.

He says propogation only happens because of the magic and the magic is always there.

So why did only 366 people receive K in the US and thousands more than that in India? Doesn't that mean the magic works differently in different parts of the world?

But he says the magic is ALWAYS there. Always where? If it's always there, why does it work better in some places than in others? Or is there no such thing as better or worse because of course it's always magic and it's always there.

Tell me, am I crazy or is this totally meaningless!?

He is so vain that he cannot admit that he needs our help. Even when he asks for help he has to make it clear that it's all magic anyway.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 13:04:15 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Logic, grace and El Nino
Message:
I think there is a problem with Mr Rawat’s magic wand.
Maybe it’s affected by El Nino or other factor.

Do you remember how many persons would attend BM's european programs in the 80s ?
nearly 10,000
Remember the programs in Wembley, Palazzio del Sport in Rome, etc ?
How many received k in UK ? 50,000 ? 100,000 ? how many still there ?
A few thousands. When there is a program in UK, half of the attendance is from other countries!
And amongst them, how many 'active', how many 'fence', how many 'nostalgic' ?
The figure has been steadily decreasing since, in spite of his glorious claims of some dozens of aspirants who have received knowledge here and there, and in spite of the fact that the people he himself gave k to are really
‘clear’ ........
How laughable (or sad) his way of counting people attending programs: he is adding numbers of entries!
In the 70s, he (EV) used to count what they called 'active' premies. Now they're counting entries, I wonder what's coming next. I remember when he introduced that new 'counting' system, in the mid 80s. We had plenty of discussions trying to figure out what that meant. Finally we (EV) started to have ushers counting people at every program in every place, made special forms, and then counting the entries by the end of each month. According to the card Brian received, it looks like the system is still at work. This way of counting probably shows how 'successful' the videos are. If nobody shows up: no success. If people come 10 time a month, big success. Funny way of counting.
Maybe he can anticipate his income this way. Donations proportional to entries.
Oh yes, something else: he tried to also count the number of places where programs were held. You had incredible figures too, but then it became very impractical and we wouldn't send the figures.
Maybe something like Satpal Maharaj claiming thousands of ashrams .... Maybe he changed the definitions too!
In India: he would claim hundreds of thousands of premies. Then the figures decreased. I remember him one day saying jokingly that it was the mahatmas fault, that they didn't know how to count, etc. People don't travel all over india anymore to attend BM’s programs. The official reason is that most of the premies are poor! That's stupid. Millions of very poor people went this year to the Kumb mela pilgrimage in Hardwar. Many Indians go every year on pilgrimages. Not so much to Sant Yog Ashram anymore !
Many other ‘new age’ groups are much more successful.
Who wants a guru’s cult now ?
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 14:36:21 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Logic, grace and El Nino
Message:
And what about how film of these large groups are used in the Introductory videos today - even though you can tell a lot of them are very dated, it still gives an impression of an enormous following. I wonder how people feel who no longer attend, knowing their image is still being shown.
Seeing the looks on the faces of the Premies was a powerful 'validator' for me, I thought, I want to feel like they are feeling.

This talk about devotional trance that you have been explaining is a very helpful way to understand and I thank you for this valuable 'handle'. Because you are right, the feelings are genuine, that's what keeps you going back.

Me and a guy I never met sat together and cried our hearts out at seeing M 18 months ago (after I received knowledge). Look, how lucky was I - I got to touch his hand when I first saw him, I received knowledge at Amaroo in the 'first ever specially-constructed' knowledge centre and then I got darshan the next day.
I was weeping because after I received knowledge, I raced outside and gaped at M as he drove away and he waved at me. This gave me the opportunity to wave back. I felt so blessed - I really did - just like a powerful god taking a moment to acknowledge a little child. I must say the feeling after everyone received K, (about 50 of us) was like Magic. We got on a bus and we could have been in heaven on a bus. Yes, the feeling was real. So the good parts - the feelings of purity and peace I don't regret, but yes they don't last when based on having to see someone to get another dose.
That's why premies spend all their money travelling to see him at programs, and the power plays to get in the front rows, I never realised that. A woman asked me at exactly what time had we received knowledge, because she was trying to practice at exactly that time and it felt easier to 'get there'. Gees, I wonder if M is paying a big price for the 'rewards' he is receiving.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 20:58:59 (EST)
From: focus your mind -on a
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: member -of the -rawat clan.
Message:

Yup, thats why it is hard for us old timers to accept
that he isnt the guy he said he was.

We had lots of group times and we were all caught on this big wave
of idealism and trust. His incredibly brazen and over the top
performance was some wildly outragious theater.

His unrelenting demands and total domination and narcisisim
were tough to throw off unless you were close enough to
see him in his private life. THOSE people have left. And he has
been adressing THEM as confused and tsk tsk the door is open
for them to return when they wake up and stop being 'stupid'.

I'll bet the quantum leap is selected video advertising
on media in some countries.
HE is not going to be stalled by his weary followers.
HE will try to push the great humanitarian do gooder angle
as well as the mysterious 'could he be the one?' stuff.And
the phantom old video footage global following that makes it
look as though he is still revered by us.

In a lot of countries the internet is expensive and even the
royal Brits complain about that.

In all of the 50 countries there are a few CD's that are
'OPTIMISTIC' that it doesnt matter that he is not god
and the heck with god if there is one anyway.
Let me focus on a member of the rawat clan.

Fraudulantly hijacking platitudes about life and claiming
ownership of the breath franchise is a cause for 'OPTIMISM!'

TRUTH and CLARITY CD reports back from Miami.
A fake lord. and hijacking the breath.
Self serving in the pretense and self delusion of his role as
god incarnate. clarity.

thank the concious power for this web site and forum.
And the 'magic' of the paticipants.
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 05:14:11 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: I do
Subject: member -of the -rawat clan.
Message:
thank the concious power for this web site and forum.
And the 'magic' of the paticipants.


I do
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 14:21:35 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Guru logic strikes again!
Message:
Yes John well said. I am itching to add something I recently heard him say about 'service'.

He said that he is going on a kind of quantum leap forward into the next stage (of his master plan?) without being too specific about what it is - and said if we want to be part of that, then it's time to really, something...(I dont know - do more service?). He pointed out how much organisation it took to give knowledge to thousands in India (I got a glimpse of the size of the machine)

Anyway, ok he says people who don't want to do service but just want to sit at home and enjoy, that's ok - but they will miss out on being pioneers in this kind of 'mission' he is here to fulfil.

So far so good. But then he had a long talk about Cohesiveness (of the machine). He said in the early days Premies had all the dedication but no (something like co-ordination) whereas anyway, the main point is that it takes many flowers but one thread to make a garland, not many threads and few flowers.

He said that when you have a car, the wheel doesn't say, well I will just have my say now, and the door doesn't say, yeah I want to add my opinion etc (obviously all this paraphrased as my memory is not a machine)

The confusing thing was, it all sounded so great but what did it really mean?
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 14:49:37 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: Guru logic strikes again!
Message:
Hi Jude
Wasn't that from his great participation speech in Long beach? Of course it could be more recent, he tends to say the same thing at every event for a while. I noticed this when I was listening to the cassetes (not the lipstick ones)
I remember premies feeling uptight after that speech. The discussions people were having were about how confused they felt. Of course that was OK, because they were just going toleave it up to M to 'show' them what to do. Don't ask me how. I never did get that one.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 15:16:03 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Guru logic strikes again!
Message:
Yes it is. It sounds great but something about the 'car' analogy makes me feel uneasy...shades of animal farm, possibly (or 1984, one of those books)

If you are down there on the rung, doing your little service eg running a video program, who is the driver of your car? M, of course. But you're not really gettting much support to run this video and you're just doing it out of love and gratitude. Are you a wheel, now? You're not supposed to have an opinion, but what does the driver really want?

It's like indirect control. So who guides us? Someone higher up in the EV structure in our city - and who told them?

Maybe I'm thinking of Metamorphosis by Franz Kafka. there's something been worrying me about blind devotion to a hidden power, and how the chain of command actually understands what he wants and does it - and the confusion of the 'little' people who really do want to do the 'right' thing.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 14:56:19 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: Guru logic strikes again!
Message:
'The confusing thing was, it all sounded so great but what did it really mean?'

You're asking me? Pardon me while I ROTFL.

But no seriously Jude, this is fascinating. When did he say all this? And how did you hear it? I'm sorry, I guess I don't know your story. Are you perched precariously on the fence?

From what you said, it sounds like he has admitted that the reason he did not accomplish his mission in the 70's was the premies had a lot of dedication but were missing something.

Since I was there, I know exactly what we were missing. We were missing a competent, clear leader who knew what the hell he was doing.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 15:19:46 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Guru logic strikes again!
Message:
In fairly recent videos, probably from Long Beach.

I'm not on the fence but I don't think I've quite landed yet!

Catch me, I'm falling! (Just kidding)

I feel clearer by the day.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 13:50:22 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Magic Money!!!
Message:
'Progagation does not happen because you make it happen. It happens because there is magic, and the magic will always be there. The invitation is for you to join the magic, if you want to, it is up to you.'

Please excuse me while I run to the bathroom and vomit......There, that's better.

So, premies should give money, because if you don't you can't 'join in the magic.' But even if you do, don't think for a minute that you are actually doing anything. It's all do to the magic, which is always 'there. What a stupid and arrogant thing to say. 'I want money, but I don't really need it, so give it anyway, so you can 'join the magic.' Shit.

I thought the magic was supposed to be free. And if it's the magic is 'there anyway, what is the money all about? In other words, he doesn't really need it, it's really to your benefit that you give the money, certainly not his. Such arrogance is hard to comprehend.

So, I guess that since the 'magic' is 'there you have to pay money to get it 'here'. Maybe that's how it works. And at the rate of 366 people a year, it will only be 750,000 years before everyone in the US and Canada receives knowledge!! All right!!!! What a success story, especially in light of all those 'peace to the entire world' declarations at Millennium.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 22:52:23 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: JW
Subject: Magic Millennium
Message:
And at the rate of 366 people a year, it will only be 750,000 years before everyone in the US and Canada receives knowledge!!

I didn't think to do the math, but that's a pretty startling revelation. I'm glad you posted that.

We're definitely gonna need a larger Millennium!

It's time we stopped wasting time and started saving it - preferably in an interest-bearing account. If we're not able to use actual years, perhaps we can fall back on using virtual years. Or time-slicing maybe. Wonder if that's where the magic comes into play?...
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 00:02:23 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: 750,000 years of peace
Message:
Yes, a longer millennium. Of course, the 366 does not take into account the number of people who rejected BM last year, either. But I guess EV wouldn't be too keen on giving statistics on that.

I wonder how much was donated for each person who received knowledge? Probably about $10,000 per person. This reminds me of the cost of toilet seats and screws at the pentagon.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 15:16:12 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Magic Money!!!
Message:
It happens because there is magic, and the magic will always be there.

Sorry, but I can't seem to get over this astounding sentence. It sounds so like him. That repetitive, meaningless statement that sounds somehow profound. If BM was forced to drop the following words from his rambling/guru-speech, he would have nothing to say:

that (when used before, love, place, knowledge, beauty, gratitude, devotion, joy, peace and the like, used to make ordinary words sound like they convey special meaning. Sometimes he adds variety and uses 'this' instead, but in the say way.

there, like used above, in a fashion that would make Gertrude Stein proud. 'There is there there and it will always be there, has always been there, and it is there because there is there there.'

When these two words are used together, what he has to say is especially meaningful.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 16:12:37 (EST)
From: Toffee
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Magic Money!!!
Message:
You all have provided me with a real good laugh and a smile on my face I can where all day!
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:36:23 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Magic Money!!!
Message:
Or, as we like to say here about San Diego 'there is no there there'

Say, isn't San Diego the there where CD is from? (might as well go for broke and piss them all off)
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:40:40 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Magic Money!!!
Message:
Actually, Gertrude Stein said that about her home town, Oakland, California. 'There is no there, there.' In this new complex called 'city center' in downtown Oakland, there is a restaurant called 'Gertrude Steins' with that written in the window.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:49:31 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Magic Money!!!
Message:
Well it certainly fits Oakland as well.

JW, I am going to take this chance to comment again about how upset I am about M complaining about the premies having babies.
It's so damned ironic too because I would have given my eye teeth (cowboy or no cowboy) to have had him come out and say 'stop bringing your kids to these festivals' I hated doing it and I always tried to get out of it and inevitably the phone would start ringing off the hook, they'd hear I wasn't going and take turns calling constantly and if it wasn't one of the ashram premies (sorry guys) it was my ex husband making me feel like Medusa for wanting to stay home with my kids.
I'm glad you posted that. I am not upset with you in any way, just so very disgusted with M.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:59:00 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Magic Money!!!
Message:
Selena, if I remember right, about 1981 BM DID ban children from programs younger than a certain age. I remember I had recently been sent to San Francisco as the community coordinator and I had to get up in front of the community to announce that at the next program children would not be allowed. I was a little fearful that this would be unpopular, and it was, but as usual, I wasn't allowed to say it came directly from BM. That is the way things worked then. BM rarely put his butt on the line about anything that might be unpopular, like these rules, or fundraising.

I recall at the time that the idea was that BM was going to begin doing introductory programs again, which he hadn't done for years, and the fear was that the kids would be distracting to new people. There was certainly nothing conveyed that BM had any concern about the kids themselves.

Oh, yes, it was absolutly sacraligious to NOT attend a program. My god, how could you even think of that!!?? That's the way I felt, but I would never have told some parent with kids that they HAD to go. Speaking up for the ashram premies, I remember one program, the Chicago ashram premies each had the service of being a 'buddy' to a premie parent, to take care of the kid part of the time at the program. I remember it was a Holi festival. I actually had a good time being a surrogate parent/baby sister, to this 5-year-old premie kid, especially during the colored water event in the Orange Bowl.

So, after that, no more child care at programs. I think it probably turned out to be better for the kids, too, but I don't think that was the reason they were banned.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 20:13:05 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Premie kids
Message:
Hi Selena and JW -
I have found the issue of raising kids v.s. 'being a good premie' to be a hot topic among some of my ex-premie friends - at least those who were premies in the 1970's. A whole lot of anger arises when this topic is broached. It's a serious question and definitely worth talking about. I don't have kids, as you know, so can't comment personally, but did post a reply to Jack's post below.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 08:05:44 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Premie kids
Message:
I guess our son is officially a premie kid although again I would stress that these labels are really misleading.
Perhaps in the 70's there was more 'abuse' by some parents.
But some parents are abusive regardless of what their interests in life are.
Some parents put gambling before their kids.
Some parents put watching tv before their kids.....
And then there is the issue of balance.
Should parents have a life outside of always being parents ?
Certainly we have probably been somewhat fortunate , compared
to many. Since our son was born in 1987 we have visited an ashram where children were always welcome....which had no connection to M.
Our son has grown up with a natural positive association about being meditative and really enjoys relaxing to beautiful music with the lights turned down.
We have never pushed anything onto him.
He chooses to play a Maharaji video himself sometimes.
He likes M's jokes.
I guess there are only relative experiences belonging to people who are different to each other.
We also home-school our son after trying school for 2 years.
We are certainly not perfect parents or perfect anything elses....but I felt to counter the suggestion in this thread that premie parents can be type-cast in some way.
Lets face it.....there is a hard core element in any group of people who will do just about anything in order to do their 'thing', but I honestly don't feel that the great majority of premie parents would abuse their kids in order to follow M around the globe.
I might be wrong....I'm open....but someone would have to proove it to me.
Regards Keith
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 09:44:05 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Keith
Subject: Premie kids
Message:
Hi Keith-
I didn't mean to imply that all premies make their kids go to festivals, and so forth. I think the whole trip has cooled down quite a bit now. The people that I referred to who were upset about the whole premie kid thing were people who had young children in the seventies and felt compelled to take their kids to every festival (or go to every festival and leave their kids with someone else). Most of these people had gotten knowledge and/or gotten married at a relatively early age, had very little money, and often felt guilty about not being devoted enough to M because they were married with children. I assume people don't still feel that way.

Anyway, when I talk about people who 'abused' their kids by spending their last dime and dragging them all over the world to go to festivals, I am talking about people that I knew and liked. The former premie parents that I've talked to since then are really sorry that they felt compelled to do this. I said some of this earlier, but part of the problem is that the predominating message of that time was that devotion and service to Maharaji should be more important than anything, and that this devotion and service was exemplified by ashram premies. So the people I know with kids felt left out and inferior and tried to do what they could to make up for it, and this wasn't so great for their children sometimes.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 10:13:19 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Keith
Subject: Premie kids
Message:
Dear Keith,
Did you see Selena's post. She had a small child and would say she wasn't going to a program because they weren't condusive to children and then the harassing phone calls would start making her feel guilty for putting her child before the BM. It isn't just good or bad parents it is about parents who are drilled that BM comes before family or anything else in your life!
Robyn
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 13:15:07 (EST)
From: Vern the Chihuahua
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Premie kids
Message:
One thing I forgot to mention about the endless phone calls.
If I really ran out of reasons not to go, I'd try the 'I don't have the money' tract, figuring since most of them were single that would be an excuse they could relate to a little more than the kid thing. Then, They (the community) would all get together and raise money for me to go!! How could someone turn down such hearfelt compassion and devotion?
I never was able to say no to that. It must have happened at least 3 times. And, it was always a trip to Miami in those days. That was, for me, about 2400 miles I think(?) All I know was it took a couple days and nights of non-stop driving, usually in a crowded vehicle, with the kids.
The vehicles were usually rundown vw buses or something.
I have a great appreciation of how big Texas really is!
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:22:33 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Vern the Chihuahua
Subject: Premie kids
Message:
Dear Vern, what a biscut?
You are to funny! When you mentioned the community raising money for your trip it reminded me...Sorry for the pause I was trying to remember dates, oh well I'm not much good at that. If I didn't have kids to relate events to their ages I'd be totally lost. Actually it was after my oldest was born and I was on the fence more or less sometimes more sometimes less for a couple years. Someone would always call me to inform me of festivals, I never remember them being called programs either. I would say I couldn't go and it would be like talking to a Jehovah's Witness and then I would call the money card also and so....I spent many a week during the months of May and November, soaking up the sun in Miami also, who knows maybe we met there. Things at the convention center didn't start until 1pm so there was all that good time to be at the pool and beach. Staying at the Fountain Blue Hotel for $6/night sharing a room with about 30 people. I brought my baby but never had any of that draging around thank god as she was in a carrier and was a very good baby, happy and content after playing in the sun and sand all morning. I know those times bring back painful hurts for many but I loved it. Of course it was only a 2 hour plane ride for me!
Take care Vern,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 09:20:43 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Magic Money!!!
Message:
Selena:

There is also another ex from SD, which is the abbreviation for 'standard deviation.'

-Scott
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