Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 7

From: May 8, 1998

To: May 19, 1998

Page: 4 Of: 5



Carol -:- Identity crisis -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 17:49:41 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Identity crisis -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 18:24:59 (EST)
__Katie -:- Identity crisis -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 18:47:22 (EST)
__JW -:- Identity crisis -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 19:23:48 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Identity crisis -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 19:40:24 (EST)
____Keith -:- Identity crisis -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 22:01:51 (EST)
______Carol -:- Back to earth -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 23:53:32 (EST)
__Sir David -:- Identity crisis -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 00:33:26 (EST)

eb -:- HAPPY BIRTHDAY KATIE -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 16:39:38 (EST)
__Selena -:- HAPPY BIRTHDAY KATIE -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 16:58:55 (EST)
__John -:- And how old exactly RU? -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 17:02:45 (EST)
____Katie -:- And how old exactly RU? -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 17:58:10 (EST)
______JW -:- And how old exactly RU? -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 18:06:02 (EST)
________Katie -:- And how old exactly RU? -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 18:13:50 (EST)
______bftb -:- And how old exactly RU? -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 19:07:58 (EST)
________Katie -:- And how old exactly RU? -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 19:38:46 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- Happy birthday. -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 20:00:34 (EST)
____________Robyn -:- Happy birthday Scott -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 08:38:03 (EST)
____JW -:- And how old exactly RU? -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 20:08:55 (EST)
__Mickey the Pharisee -:- HAPPY BIRTHDAY KATIE -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 18:04:04 (EST)
____Katie -:- HAPPY BIRTHDAY KATIE -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 18:19:03 (EST)
__JW -:- JOKE -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 18:11:45 (EST)
____Katie -:- JOKE -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 18:39:53 (EST)
______Anon -:- Happy birthaday Katie. -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 18:52:28 (EST)
________Katie -:- Happy birthaday Katie. -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 19:42:49 (EST)
__________JW -:- Happy birthaday Katie. -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 19:47:01 (EST)
____________Anon -:- Happy birthaday Katie. -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 20:19:58 (EST)
______________JW -:- Happy birthaday Katie. -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 20:37:07 (EST)
________________Anon -:- Happy birthaday Katie. -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 20:51:52 (EST)
____________Selena -:- Happy birthaday Katie. -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 21:35:31 (EST)
______________Katie -:- Happy birthaday Katie. -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 21:48:51 (EST)
______Keith -:- another birthday joke -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 22:42:09 (EST)
__Jim -:- B'day? Come on, Katie! -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 20:42:35 (EST)
____Katie -:- B'day? Come on, Katie! -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 21:53:09 (EST)
______Keith -:- 11TH May....what a day! Katie. -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 22:15:42 (EST)
____Selena -:- B'day? Come on, Katie! -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 22:13:27 (EST)
______Carol -:- It's still the 11th in OR! -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 00:14:29 (EST)
__Brian -:- She's still spry at 60! -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 23:27:21 (EST)
__gumby -:- HAPPY BIRTHDAY KATIE -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 23:34:10 (EST)
____david f. -:- another joke for katie -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 00:45:08 (EST)
__VP -:- HAPPY BIRTHDAY KATIE -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 08:30:00 (EST)
____Katie -:- Thank you very much - everyone -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 13:32:16 (EST)
______John -:- Huh? -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 14:00:41 (EST)
________Katie -:- Huh? -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 14:12:31 (EST)
__________John -:- Huh? -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 15:54:08 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Astrology = kit kat -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 16:25:48 (EST)
______________Katie -:- Jim, the Sat guroovey PM -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:13:13 (EST)
________________Mickey Pal -:- Jim, the Sat guroovey PM -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 22:29:31 (EST)
________________Jim -:- Jim, the Sat guroovey PM -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 22:40:20 (EST)
__________________Katie -:- Jim, the Sat guroovey PM -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 23:02:16 (EST)
____________________Mickeypal -:- Jim, the Sat guroovey PM -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 23:07:19 (EST)
______________________Carol-gopi-girl -:- Guru Mariachi -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 18:56:29 (EST)
________________eb -:- KitKat or ChitChat -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:28:54 (EST)
__________________Katie -:- KitKat or ChitChat -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 10:17:26 (EST)
__________________John -:- KitKat or ChitChat -:- Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 12:24:36 (EST)
____________Katie -:- Astrology - the end (I hope) -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:14:30 (EST)
______________VP -:- Astrology-calling all Scorpios -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:25:48 (EST)
________________Katie -:- Astrology-calling all Scorpios -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 22:22:33 (EST)
______JW -:- To Katie and Mark Appleman -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 17:06:50 (EST)
________Katie -:- To Katie and Mark Appleman -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:58:31 (EST)

U. K. Mole -:- Bursting the Bubble -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 13:49:20 (EST)
__Katie -:- Bursting the Bubble -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 14:40:09 (EST)
____U. K. Mole -:- Bursting the Bubble -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:43:29 (EST)
______Brian -:- Bursting the Bubble -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 00:19:31 (EST)
________U.K. Mole -:- Brian - Please Read -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 18:02:52 (EST)
__________Brian -:- Great! -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 19:38:28 (EST)
____________U. K. Mole -:- Great! -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 21:44:30 (EST)
__Non -:- Bursting the Bubble -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 18:28:08 (EST)
__JW -:- Bursting the Bubble -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 18:30:23 (EST)
____Jim -:- Bursting the Bubble -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 20:54:37 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Bubble Gum Ji was never F.M. -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 20:40:04 (EST)
____Jim -:- Bubble Gum Ji was never F.M. -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 21:06:43 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- Bubble Gum Ji was never F.M. -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 22:23:51 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- The Council of Ministers -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 01:49:35 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Indian Political Structure -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 08:43:02 (EST)
__to -:- agent 707 -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 00:14:31 (EST)
__eldest liar -:- Bursting the Bubble -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 00:47:04 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- The Jain Report -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 08:00:47 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Why BBJ left politics -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 12:41:34 (EST)
______Jude -:- Why BBJ left politics -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 14:52:16 (EST)
__VP -:- Bursting little bro's Bubble -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 11:20:50 (EST)

Brian -:- Outing yourself -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 08:44:11 (EST)
__Rick -:- Outing yourself -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 13:09:41 (EST)
__Selena -:- Outing yourself -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 16:26:27 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Ex's with premie friends -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 08:54:49 (EST)
____Anon -:- Ex's with premie friends -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:33:02 (EST)
______Mark -:- Ex's with premie friends -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 20:41:54 (EST)

Jude -:- contentment (therapy segment) -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 07:22:29 (EST)
__Jean-Michel -:- about mindfucking gurus -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 12:05:28 (EST)
__JW -:- contentment (therapy segment) -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 17:19:40 (EST)
____John -:- A comment, small -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 17:43:21 (EST)
______JW -:- A comment, small -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 19:40:57 (EST)
________Jude -:- A comment, small -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 05:45:32 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- A comment, small -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 09:11:42 (EST)
________Joy -:- A comment, small -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 12:23:36 (EST)
______Jude -:- A comment, small -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 05:37:18 (EST)
____Jude -:- contentment (therapy segment) -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 05:35:49 (EST)

Jim -:- Rennie Davis sucks -:- Sun, May 10, 1998 at 20:05:38 (EST)
__Katie -:- Rennie Davis -:- Sun, May 10, 1998 at 22:10:00 (EST)
____Brian -:- Rennie Davis -:- Sun, May 10, 1998 at 22:36:31 (EST)
______mark appleman -:- Rennie Davis -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 02:02:32 (EST)
________Jude -:- Rennie Davis -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 05:32:11 (EST)
________Anon -:- Rennie Davis -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 05:56:16 (EST)
__________Brian -:- Rennie Davis -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 08:56:57 (EST)
________JIm -:- Rennie Davis -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 11:10:05 (EST)
________CD -:- Rennie Davis -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 16:49:58 (EST)
__________tired of bullshit -:- tired of bullshit -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 20:03:32 (EST)
____________CD -:- life and talk -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 20:35:58 (EST)
______________even more tired of bull.. -:- even more tired of bullshit -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:32:12 (EST)
________________CD -:- new shit -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 13:12:42 (EST)
__________________Jim -:- new shit -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:19:57 (EST)
____________________Jiva -:- Jive -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 19:19:28 (EST)
______________________Jim -:- Jive (to CD) -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 20:24:13 (EST)
__Paul -:- Rennie Davis sucks -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 11:06:37 (EST)
__JW -:- Rennie Davis sucks -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 13:12:17 (EST)
____JW -- Rennie Davis -:- Embarrassing Stuff -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 13:33:58 (EST)

Toffee -:- This is for you -:- Sun, May 10, 1998 at 17:36:23 (EST)

Brian -:- Forum I archives -:- Sun, May 10, 1998 at 15:00:23 (EST)

VP -:- Happy Mother's Day! -:- Sun, May 10, 1998 at 08:56:20 (EST)
__Carol -:- Me too...to all who nurture -:- Sun, May 10, 1998 at 13:20:10 (EST)
____Katie -:- To the women on the forum -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 15:57:52 (EST)


Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 17:49:41 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: coopmtncarol@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Identity crisis
Message:
Hello to all readers,
After a week of conversations both here and with my husband and (premie)son and lots of examination of all the reasons to disbelieve that M is who the devotional song of Arti said he was...which I sang in part yesterday as an example of who M was claimed to be.( I even learned it in Hindi.) I am still hooked by the feelings that come up for me. That there must be a reason why I still have the potential to experience what someone recently described as 'devotional trance'. I am a person very capable of devotion. The feeling of love is the 'reason' I've most often used to justify to myself unreasonable beliefs or acts. Is this a basic character flaw or personality defect or is it an asset? I have enjoyed being irreverent and exploring the concepts of truth and God with you. However, the more I know, the more I know I don't know. But,it must be so much easier to be a true believer in whatever it is you believe. I've said before, I feel better and function better when I have faith in a higher power.
I still don't know if I qualify as an ex-premie, because I am still drawn to a feeling of love when I look at his pictures, and I guess I must be clinging to a belief that he is more than human and that he loves me. Perhaps this is like an addiction or denial. Even if other teachers have taught the same thing as knowledge, I might not have received it by other means, and I still value it even if I don't practice it just the way it was taught. I've only 'kept in touch' by going to programs 3 times in the last 10 years. I certainly am not obedient or disciplined or accepting of all the organizational and propagational structure, etc., etc., etc. I don't care for secrecy or heirarchy or superiority or exclusion. I feel that people should help eachother in whatever ways they are able.
I wish Maharaji would just come right out and say who or what he is, and answer all of our/your questions. I feel like such a fool to wobble on the fence like this. I think I could debate the issues from either side of the fence. Do any of you relate to this? I have been overeating and needing naps this week, sure signs of a conflict within. Overall, I feel I am excercising my healthy human tendency to doubt and examine my choices and beliefs. Truth cannot be boxed-in by any labels. (Maybe all truth is relative.) So I must profess to you that I am Carol, a human being, not at this time either premie or non-premie. I accept all of you as the human beings you are.
I am going to go garden and tend to the llamas. I've gotten too airy and need grounding by some dirt and manure!
With Love, Carol
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 18:24:59 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Identity crisis
Message:
Carol:

I can relate to the need to believe and I think it's generally true that people function better with such a belief than without it. I think threre's even some empirical evidence to support this. I also think I would be intimidated by Maharaji's image, or especially his physical presence. That, however, is just programming, because I can remember what it was like before I was programmed. I had almost no fear of Maharaji, who seemed to me as approachable as anyone. I lived across from the Pacific Palisades residence for several weeks in a tent. (That's nuts I know, but I was nuts.) Even at that time I was not programmed. All of that came later, and was re-inforced by a very strong socialization. So, after all these years, I've never had that part of me de-programmed. However, I have no doubt that it can be done. I also think it is partly the sort of thing that occurs with abused children who become attached to the perpetrator. That is, it's partly a matter of being traumatized. I don't think your journey would be real without these attachments coming up. Still, I have no doubts at all about Maharaji's status. He is not God, nor is he even a very clever or insightful human being. He just doesn't measure up on any kind of scale. I can't regard the universe as perverse, and that's what it would take to convince me that I am wrong about Maharaji.

I wish Maharaji would just come right out and say who or what he is, and answer all of our/your questions.

I wrote him a letter, and got a rather stupid reply from a lackey. I don't think he'll help you out on that one. It would destroy him psychologically. In the end he's in much bigger trouble than you or I.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 18:47:22 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Carol
Subject: Identity crisis
Message:
Dear Carol -
Don't know if this will help, but, when I recently watched the video about Millenium, I was struck by how charismatic I still found Maharaji to be. My husband (never a premie), on the other hand, couldn't believe that we actually followed M! I also recently was sent a lot of pictures of Maharaji from the early 80's (I left in 1977). I found them to be very weird, and didn't feel attracted to the person portrayed in the pictures at all. There was one picture of the 1970's Maharaji enclosed with these other pictures, and I thought that that was the best picture!

What I have figured out from the above is that I was programmed. I looked at SO MANY pictures of Maharaji during the mid-seventies that I still find his image from that era to be somewhat attractive (after all, I pranamed to it, sang arti to it, etc.) I feel nothing about Maharaji pictures that date from after I left DLM/EV. I wonder if that is some of what you are feeling as well.

Take care, Carol,
Katie
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 19:23:48 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Identity crisis
Message:
Carol:

I think everyone goes through changes when they really start to look objectively, and deeply, and these things, especially about how they view and react to BM. That was true for me as well. You have to give yourself time. Anyway, here is my reaction to some of what you said.

I am still hooked by the feelings that come up for me. That there must be a reason why I still have the potential to experience what someone recently described as 'devotional trance'. I am a person very capable of devotion.

The feeling of love is the 'reason' I've most often used to justify to myself unreasonable beliefs or acts. Is this a basic character flaw or personality defect or is it an asset?

I still don't know if I qualify as an ex-premie, because I am still drawn to a feeling of love when I look at his pictures, and I guess I must be clinging to a belief that he is more than human and that he loves me.


Yes, that feeling of 'devotion' that I felt and premies say they feel can be deceptively strong, but I totally disagree that it has anything to do with love. Love involves a give and take relationship with another. It involves giving and receiving.

With Maharaji, since he doesn't even know you are alive, there is no love and whatever 'devotion' there is only goes one way, from you to him. As a premie, I just learned to associate all good feelings with BM and to associate all bad feelings with me, or my mind, or 'the world.' I just believed all the good stuff was coming from him, when in fact that wasn't true and I never had any evidence that it was true either. It also resulted in a very schizophrenic kind of life.

In my experience, the 'devotion' around BM is a kind of immature 'love.' It's the same kind of love that 12 year olds feel for a rock star looking at a picture, going to a concert, watching a rock video. It's very seductive because it allows the devotee to imprint fantasy, hopes, etc. onto BM, and all the spiritual trappings just make it easier to believe there is some kind of divine connection on some ethereal level. And because the premies spend zero time around him, those fantasies and hopes don't get tested by reality. So, love can't ever grow. It just stays that immature kind of love, which I guess we can call devotion. And I think BM stays away from interaction with the premies for that very reason. If he did interact with them, other than at controlled programs and in videos, the 'devotion' would likely dissipate for a lot of people.

But,it must be so much easier to be a true believer in whatever it is you believe.

It might be easier for awhile, but the price you pay for it is pretty high. And, after awhile, it stops being so easy, unless you just learn to question nothing and ignore your own values and judgements. Your doubts will always cause you pain, and you have to work very hard to hold the belief together. That's a recipe for stagnation and a kind of spiritual death in my opinion.
Even after all these years, I still have a reaction to seeing a picture of BM. It's kind of nauseating now, because it's a reaction in proportion to how strongly I felt 'devotion' when looking at them in the past. I was never one to like his pictures too much anyway, but you can't spend that much intense involvement in satsang, and programs, day after day after day, for years, and not have some pretty intense programming about who BM is, and feel it on a very emotional level. It just became automatic, like operant conditioning. It takes time to see through that. You can take your time.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 19:40:24 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Carol
Subject: Identity crisis
Message:
Dear Carol,
I don't have anything new to add here but I've been away and just want you to know that I support you in whatever you decide. Of course I hope you decide to move away from BM in your own time but ultimately I feel like you are an excellent person with a lot to deal with and that you are doing your best. Hope you keep questioning until you feel strong in the answers you find for yourself.
Robyn
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 22:01:51 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Identity crisis
Message:
Dear Carol,

I 'relate' to your every word...very much.
It's essentially the same for me and the process gets deeper and deeper. Since discovering this site about 5 weeks ago
I have found myself walking the tightrope of all my doubts, beliefs, feelings, dualities.....in fact 'IT'S REVIEW TIME!'
Good luck.
Personally I am allowing this process to lead where it will, and to take as long as it takes.
Warm regards, Keith
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 23:53:32 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Back to earth
Message:
To Scott,Katie,JW,Robyn,and Keith:
Thankyou all for your thoughtful responses, I needed that. You all made very good points. I am doing better except for an aching body. I cleaned the chicken coop, fed the llamas and weeded and planted for about 3 hours. I am very grateful to be alive and able to do so many things, including thinking and communicating!
Carol (%?)
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 00:33:26 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Carol
Subject: Identity crisis
Message:
The soul searching must go on. The question is, is he God or is he not God? Surely that is the crux of the matter. There's no half measures there.

I used to often go to sleep thinking about Maharaji and how I wished I could just rest my head at his feet just one more time. We all know what the Lord means and we all can relate to how we would feel towards a genuine God in human form.

So is Maharaji God in human form. Is he really or has it just been a projection of our needs and imagination? Why not ask God? He is omnipresent and if you ask Him sincerely then He will give you the answer. You can do pranam to God right now. You can put your head at His feet right now. He is always there.

Look at the words of arti. They are Hindu. Where are these three mythical gods, Creator, Preserver and Destroyer? There is only one God. You don't have to wait too long for an answer from Him either. Look, it would be very nice is God had come in human form. Don't ask Maharaji if he's God - ask God if He's Maharaji. That way you're more likely to get an answer.

By the way, the last time I saw Maharaji (in 1986) he said that he was definitely NOT God. He was most emphatic about it and derided the person who had asked him if he was God. I was utterly stunned when I eventually came to the conclusion that Maharaji wasn't God. It was total freak out time. Half my life had been spent enthusiastically believing an untruth. And yet what is Maharaji? How could he have convinced so many people for so long that He was the Lord? Well that was a combination of people wanting it to be so and also people close to M saying it was so. It's the old story of the Emperor's New Clothes.

You know when it really dawned on me? It was when I tied in the ulcers that M had in the seventies to his rumoured heavy drinking (which I'd always discounted as an untruth before). But look here; Maharaji has lost many (most) of his former devotees. Does he search out every one like the good sheperd who searched all night for just ONE lost sheep. I don't get the feeling that Maharaji does that.

I cannot live a lie. If we need God then it is easy to make Maharaji our ready made God and indeed he will welcome it. But he is too inconsistent to even be a reliable guru, let alone God. His Father, Shri Hans said that whoever remembers the word (breath) at all times is my devotee, (or something similar to that). And Maharaji says to remember the word for just 15 minutes a day! And he tells premies not to remember the word if he thinks they're doing it. Maharaji is your God if you make him so. But is that the real God? Only you can find out for yourself, with the aid of the real God.

Seek and you shall find, is a very true maxim. Your questions will be answered soon, I am sure.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 16:39:38 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: HAPPY BIRTHDAY KATIE
Message:
Hi Katie,
Unless I marked my calendar wrong, I believe today is your birthday. Hope it's happy! And thanks for absolutely everything. You are truly appreciated.
eb
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 16:58:55 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: HAPPY BIRTHDAY KATIE
Message:
I second the greeting Katie. You have been a wonderful encouragement to me. Thanks and enjoy the day whether it's a birthday or not.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 17:02:45 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: And how old exactly RU?
Message:
Happy BDay Katie! Are you the big 4-0 this year? Or has that already come and gone?
Hitting 40 for me was a real shock. No birthday had affected me at all up until that one. Wahhhh, I don't wanta grow old!!!!
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 17:58:10 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: all
Subject: And how old exactly RU?
Message:
Thanks very much to eb, Selena, John, and everyone.
I am 42 this year.
I agree with John that turning 40 was really hard - I didn't think it would be until it happened. (My husband is 3 years younger than me, so he couldn't relate!) Turning 42 has also been weird - the number 42 just sounds so 'middle-aged', if you all know what I mean. I really appreciate all the other 'forty-something' (and thirty-something and fifty-something and twenty-something and whatever-something) folks on the forum. Thanks!

Wish I had mathoms for you all -
Katie
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 18:06:02 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: And how old exactly RU?
Message:
Happy Birthday Katie!

So, this makes you a Taurus, doesn't it? Hmmm. Earthy, likes food, stubborn.....does that apply to you? Or do you think that's a bunch of bull?
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 18:13:50 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: And how old exactly RU?
Message:
Yes, I am a Taurus, and having once been a pretty good astrologer, I find it hard to give it up completely (don't tell Jim, though!). Taurus is the only earth sign in my chart, though (this won't make sense to you unless you know something about astrology), which means I can be happily married to yet another Taurus.

P.S. I love Capricorns, by the way!
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 19:07:58 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: And how old exactly RU?
Message:
It is an honour to come out of 'posting retirement' to wish you the Happiest of Birthdays!
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 19:38:46 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: And how old exactly RU?
Message:
Hey, bftb - I know a young person like you probably can't relate to being 42, but I appreciate the thought! Seriously, thanks very much - I do appreciate it.
Regards from Katie
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 20:00:34 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Happy birthday.
Message:
Katie:

When I turned 40 I was a political canvasser, and a pretty good one. Averaged about $110 per night. That night I had been out for three or four hours w/o getting any contributions at all. Not a dime! Still two hours to go til pick up, so I just called it a day and caught a bus home. When they came to pick me up at the rendezvous I had disappeared. I never celebrated my 40th, partly because I grew up in a Christian Science household, and they don't celebrate birthdays. There was a movie with Marlo Thomas that I saw, and Irwin Corey played her father. He had falsified her birth certificate so that she thought she was one year older than she actually was. He said he did so that he could give her an extra year as a present on her 40th, which was really her 39th. Always thought that was a great idea.

I still don't celebrate, but on my 45th someone in a coffee shop found out it was my birthday, and the whole place sang 'the song' to me. Cool. Anyway, happy birthday Katie. Being 40 now is like being 30 ten years ago, I think.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 08:38:03 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Scott T.
Subject: Happy birthday Scott
Message:
Dear Scott,
When is your birthday that you don't celebrate? I know you may not want to let out that info, but just in case! I didn't realize any religion besides Jehovah Witnesses didn't celebrate birthdays. I think birthdays are a wonderful excuse to celebrate yourself and those you care about. Do you celebrate Christmas? Isn't that supposed to mark Jesus' birthday?
You can save this HAPPY BIRTHDAY! for your birthday when it rolls around.
Robyn
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 20:08:55 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: John
Subject: And how old exactly RU?
Message:
Well, I thought turning 40 was a breeze. It was turning 30 that was hard! I turned 30 shortly after leaving the cult. It made it painfully obvious how many years had been wasted.

But I was pretty happy with my 30s and so when I turned 40 I was optomistic. Actually, so far, the 40s have been the best decade of my life. My 20s were the pits for reasons many of you can relate to. And who would want to re-live their teenage years?
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 18:04:04 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Katie
Subject: HAPPY BIRTHDAY KATIE
Message:
Happy Birthday, Katie!
You are one of the nicest persons on the site, and I always enjoy our off-line e-mail conversations, too. I hope that you have a great day and are properly pampered! Once school finishes in a couple weeks, I'll have your dB's tape recorded! Have a great day!
Michael
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 18:19:03 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: HAPPY BIRTHDAY KATIE
Message:
Thank you Michael! I know you are really busy, so please don't worry about the dB's tape until you get back from Panama (unless you have some extra time between then and now - ha ha!) We miss you on the site - hope to hear more from you after your return.

Regards (and love) from Katie

P.S. I am still looking for a song (title and artist unknown) of which the chorus is: 'Your Love is Like a Nuclear Waste'. One of my favorites, believe it or not. Also, my husband wants tapes of YOUR albums, or parts of them, if there is room. Also, I used to really like X - how about you?
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 18:11:45 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: JOKE
Message:
Here is a birthday joke for Katie.

Question: What do you get when you cross an agnostic, a dyslexic and an insomniac?

Answer: Someone who is awake all night wondering about the existence of DOG.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 18:39:53 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: JOKE
Message:
Thanks, JW - good joke. I will use it if I can remember it - I'm getting old, you know...
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 18:52:28 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Happy birthaday Katie.
Message:
Happy Birthday Katie!
I think I'm 42 too..hang on a minute..born in Oct'56, no I must still be 41. Anyway I am starting to feel pretty ancient!
Hope your having a lot of fun today.
aNon
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 19:42:49 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Happy birthaday Katie.
Message:
Thank you, Anon - I didn't realize you were actually YOUNGER than me - oh no! You are even younger than eb! There's not many people on this forum that are (that I know of! I'm sure there are lots that I don't know of...) Anyway, thanks very much, and I hope you enjoy being 42 (when you get there), too.
Regards from Katie
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 19:47:01 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Happy birthaday Katie.
Message:
Katie, have you had the experience of looking at old pictures of your parents and discovering that they are YOUNGER than you are now? I keep thinking that being 40 now, is NOT what being 40 used to be. Yeah, right. I keep telling myself that.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 20:19:58 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: JW and Katie
Subject: Happy birthaday Katie.
Message:
It's good to be old..old and wise..not old and brain-washed.
I do feel sorry for some of the ageing 'believers' I know who, paradoxically, don't seem to be growing old gracefully!
I am optimistic basically. My father lived to be 84 and my Grannies well into their nineties. I love looking at old photos of them and when I do it makes me feel even more like living life to the full. Life is short. I pulled out a photo of my Grandmother taken in 1896 the other day and I realised that this was OVER a hundred years old. Also my Dad's birthday was on the 3rd May (the other day) . He was born in 1896 too, so if he were alive today he would be 104!
I look at my children with great awe. My oldest is 2 and the youngest 9 months. I guess at 41 I am old enough to appreciate that I am not the centre of the universe and that there is a great joy in simply looking after these two little innocents and working for their good. There are definately great benefits to being older. I don't think I would have been a very good father in my twenties, I would have been at festivals all the time instead of looking after them!
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 20:37:07 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Happy birthaday Katie.
Message:
So, your father was 60 or 61 when you were born? I take it your mother was MUCH younger. What this your father's second family?
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 20:51:52 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Happy birthaday Katie.
Message:
Yes, my mother was about 30 years younger. My fathers first wife (an American Doctor whom he had met in China in the 1920's) died after the end of the last war of cancer. My father was a true gentleman and an extremely good father to my brother and I. My mother now lives nearby and is enjoying a new lease of life, as Granny to our two kids. (my mother was in the '50's, the young nurse who came down to my fathers farm to look after the children of his first marriage. He duly married her.)
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 21:35:31 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: JW and Katie
Subject: Happy birthaday Katie.
Message:
RE: Looking at parents who were the age you are now. My mom had
me when she was 42. Imagine that Katie, a baby now!
I sure can't. (geez it just occurred to me for all I know you could be having a baby) Uhh, I think you would have let us know. My penchant for inadvertantly insulting someone via email can't be that bad - uh can it?
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 21:48:51 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Selena
Subject: Happy birthaday Katie.
Message:
Hi Selena - no babies, thank you! I appreciate them, but don't want to have my first one at my advanced age! I know other people do, but...
Take care,
Katie
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 22:42:09 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: another birthday joke
Message:
Here's another birthday joke for you Katie.

A local business was looking for office help.  They put a sign in
the window, stating the following:  'HELP WANTED.  Must be able to
type, must be good with a computer and must be bilingual.  We are an
Equal Opportunity Employer.'

A short time afterwards, a dog trotted up to the window, saw the
sign and went inside.  He looked at the receptionist and wagged
his tail, then walked over to the sign, looked at it and whined.

Getting the idea, the receptionist got the office manager.  The
office manager looked at the dog and was surprised, to say the
least.  However, the dog looked determined, so he lead him into
the office.  Inside, the dog jumped up on the chair and stared at
the manager.

The manager said 'I can't hire you.  The sign says you have to be
able to type.'  The dog jumped down, went to the typewriter and
proceeded to type out a perfect letter.  He took out the page and
trotted
over to the manager and gave it to him, then jumped back on the chair.

The manager was stunned, but then told the dog 'the sign says you
have to be good with a computer.'  The dog jumped down again and went
to the computer.  The dog proceeded to enter and execute a perfect
program, that worked flawlessly the first time.

By this time the manager was totally dumb-founded!  He looked at
the dog and said 'I realize that you are a very intelligent dog
and have some interesting abilities.  However, I *still* can't
give you the job.'

The dog jumped down and went to a copy of the sign and put his
paw on the sentences that told about being an Equal Opportunity
Employer.  The manager said 'yes, but the sign *also* says that
you have to be bilingual.'

The dog looked at the manager calmly and said,  'Meow!'
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 20:42:35 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: B'day? Come on, Katie!
Message:
Katie,

You really expect me to believe this birthday bullshit? Sorry, birthday chit chat bullshit? Oh my God -- no, I don't mean that, I don't know what I mean. But you know what I mean, don't pretend you don't!

And another thing -- happy birthday! No, don't give me that shit, you know exactly what I mean. I mean Happy Birthday, Katie!.

You with me on this? You with me or am I going to have to do it all on my own. Won't be the first time, you know? Or maybe you don't know. My mom's a Taurus too, by the way. She was out here for a few days and we put her on a plane back home today. Birthday fell on Mother's day but that's no proof of nothing, certainly not God. She'd probably laugh to hear us 40 somethings 'kvetch'. I gave her a copy of the Lord of the Universe video to take home.

Have fun tonight, Katie. Thanks for hanging in there.

Love,

Jim
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 21:53:09 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: B'day? Come on, Katie!
Message:
Dear Jim -
Great post, and I won't even try and match it. I think I get it though! Tell yo' mama happy birthday from another Mother's Day baby.

Jim, I really appreciate you being here, despite our occasional sparring matches (hey, they're fun, too, right?)

Love from
Katie
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 22:15:42 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: 11TH May....what a day! Katie.
Message:
Katie ,
Indeed I wish you a very happy birthday and as Jim might say and all that b.s.
But Katie this day ...May 11th happens to be of of those special days for me .
Firstly my great mentor and beloved first teacher Jiddu Krishnamurti was born on this day . And so was my ex-wife who is still a very good friend.
So , as an ex-astrologer(well, I still dabble now and then) this informs me that you must indeed have some endearing qualities.
So....have a good day(what's left of it ),
Warm regards , Keith
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 22:13:27 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jim and Katie
Subject: B'day? Come on, Katie!
Message:
Jim, I hope your mom gets a good laugh out of The Lord of The Unviverse video. Also, I want to add - as a mom - Good for you! I think it's great you were in communication with her to the degree that you could give that video to her.. it shows a certain humanness that can validate and encourage this letting go process. (I don't think humanness is a word but it fits so I used it. )
Katie, my husband is a Taurus. Since you know astrology I can tell you I have NO earth in my chart, all air and fire except I think there is some planet all of us 40 somethings had in Earth - Neptune or something. anyway, I am a fire and air child and I can tell you right now how much i LOVE being married to my Taurus. He is my touchstone. He is so creative and intelligent, yet he just doesn't get out there like I do.
Here's a Funny/sad thing:
He supported me when i was into M, even went to see him and said kind things. But he NEVER compromised or got into 'seeking knowledge' and now that I am out he supports the exit and says how relieved he is that I have moved on. He opened up recently and told me how weird he thought the one video event I brought him to was and how lost the premies seemed (if all of you knew where I lived you'd really appreciate that)/
He also thought that the one time he saw M, he was impressed by him... but we all know that drill - My husband was with his new wife, the 'event' was very controlled, M was at his best. He didn't impress him enough to want to attend a second video event. He made up excuses, in retrospect it's cute!! :-)
and to my credit I didn't push him going, I could have and that scares me.
I hope you had a great day Katie, you deserve it.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 00:14:29 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Selena and Katie
Subject: It's still the 11th in OR!
Message:
Happy Birthday Katie....it's 9:05 here in Oregon. I am a Capricorn so I know you'd like me Katie! I am married to a Taurus husband that sounds a lot like yours, Selena (also very supportive and non-judgmental but didn't much like the videos he saw.) My oldest son is Taurus, too. I'm older than many of you at 47! Carol
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 23:27:21 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: eb
Subject: She's still spry at 60!
Message:
Hard to believe.. oh yeah.. I forgot about your hearing...

HARD TO BELIEVE THAT YOU'VE REACHED THAT GOLDEN AGE, EH KATIE? HAPPY BIRTHDAY OL' GAL!!

[snicker]
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 23:34:10 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: HAPPY BIRTHDAY KATIE
Message:
Hi Katie,

To you a very special greeting on your 42nd, I hope and pray that good cheer, spirit, and health are in great abundance within you. Thank you for being here.

GAGBWY

-gumby
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 00:45:08 (EST)
From: david f.
Email: None
To: all
Subject: another joke for katie
Message:
what do you get when you cross lassie with a cantaloupe?

a melon collie baby.

happy b-day. david.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 08:30:00 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: HAPPY BIRTHDAY KATIE
Message:
Dear Katie, (A Beatles' tune)
You say it's your birthday na na na na na na
It's my birthday too, yeah na na na na na na
You say it's your birthday na na na na na na
We're gonna have a good time na na na na na na
You say it's your birthday na na na na na na
Happy Birthday to you!

I just saw this. HAPPY BELATED BIRTHDAY, Katie! VP
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 13:32:16 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: all
Subject: Thank you very much - everyone
Message:
Hey guys -
I truly appreciate all the birthday wishes. I started out trying to answer everyone individually, but there just ended up being too many - didn't want an interminable thread here!

To Keith, david f, and JW - Thanks for the dog jokes! They were funny and my cats even liked them. I got the 'bull' joke too, JW!

(Also to Keith - Jim, don't read this - I also think May 11th is a good day for a birthday because the weather is usually beautiful in the part of the Northern Hemisphere in which I live. I'm not so sure about May 11, 1956 because I have Saturn sitting right on my ascendant and a moon-Mercury conjunction in Gemini, but I suppose it's all part of the growth process...)

Thanks to Gumby, VP, and Carol for the nice birthday wishes, too. And to Brian - sheesh - I just don't know what to say!! I still like you though...

Thanks again everyone,
Katie
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 14:00:41 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Huh?
Message:
'...I have Saturn sitting right on my ascendant and a moon-Mercury conjunction in Gemini, but I suppose it's all part of the growth process...'

Care to translate?
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 14:12:31 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: John
Subject: Huh?
Message:
It's just astrologer talk, John. We are not really supposed to talk about this stuff on the forum, but I'd be happy to explain it to you via e-mail if you really are interested. As you may or may not know, the astrological 'sign' you are is the zodiac sign that the sun was in on your birthday. If you do a full astrological chart, you also account for the exact positions of the moon and all the other planets, plus the sign that the sun rose in on your birthday (ascendant), and some other stuff. Mathematical relationships among these supposedly determine factors of your personality and so forth. That's all I was talking about.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 15:54:08 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Huh?
Message:
Hey Katie, remember, I'm an old space cowboy, I know it's astrologer talk. I was asking, what does it actually mean to your personality to have saturn in the ascendant?

And who says we can't discuss astrology on the forum? Is that in the by-laws somewhere?

Or did 'The Committee' decide that behind everyone's backs?

[heh heh, just kidding.]
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 16:25:48 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Astrology = kit kat
Message:
If I ever do become Perfect Master I'm going to reaffirm the 'no kit kat' rule. Discussion about astrology, which has been soundly discredited as absolute poo-poo (the studies are a million per cent conclusive and kind of funny too) is kit kat, i.e. talk by anyone but the Perfect Master of matters inconsequential.

As for my campaign, there are some good markers: I've gained a little weight and my only sibling, my sister, doesn't seem to want to challenge me for the position. Plus, my chart has a lot of leadership stuff in it (eagles, snakes, and, oh yes, the sun).
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:13:13 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, the Sat guroovey PM
Message:
Hi Jim - I beg to differ about your rule about kit kat (a.k.a. chit chat. I know, I told you that if you ever mentioned that word again...).

I think everyone EXCEPT the perfect one should be able to talk about anything they want: music, astrology, celebrities, mental health, and all the other things that you think we all chit chat about so much. You on the other hand, will have to be continually inspiring.

Think you can do it? If not, Mickey Pal is waiting in the wings. Also, there IS Brian, and he does have all those gopis, you know.

By the way, I suggest you check with your mom before you assume masterhood - you know what happened to GMJ...
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 22:29:31 (EST)
From: Mickey Pal
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Katie
Subject: Jim, the Sat guroovey PM
Message:
Hmmmm, you know, I called my mom, mommy-ji, and she said OF COURSE I am Satguru, OF COURSE I'm the Perfect Master because I'm perfect in every way. I'm a good boy and became a priest and everything. And she said that you guys all have to agree and follow me, too, so forget Jim and his false ways and follow me and I will give you candy and stuff.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 22:40:20 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Jim, the Sat guroovey PM
Message:
Katie,

Your nascent factionalism is startling. Hell, I haven't even gotten going yet and you want to depose me. Well, female householder friend, you're going to have to try a little harder than this. Your Mickeypal is obviously wrestling with other demons and Brianpal doesn't own his own VCR.

As for my mother, nothing to worry about. When we put her on the plane, she just gave me two thumbs up and screamed accross the tarmac, 'Show me the money!'
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 23:02:16 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, the Sat guroovey PM
Message:
Jim, I'm surprised that you're startled by my nascent factionalism. I WAS a premie during 1974, you know - so whaddya expect?

Anyway, I think Michael will let us chit chat about sex, drugs and rock and roll, maybe even astrology. I am not so sure about you. I would mention Brian here, but I know that if you buy him a big computer and all the peripherals and software and disk space and phone time that he wants, and give him enough money so he can quit his day job, he won't trouble you further.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 23:07:19 (EST)
From: Mickeypal
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Katie
Subject: Jim, the Sat guroovey PM
Message:
Because I have played contrabasso and gitaron in a Mexican band, and to separate myself from false prophets like Prempal, Satpal, and Jimpal, I have proclaimed myself Guru Mariachi. Come follow me, you who are heavy laden, and I will give you the rest, for my jokes are easy and my burden is nice.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 18:56:29 (EST)
From: Carol-gopi-girl
Email: None
To: Mickeypal
Subject: Guru Mariachi
Message:
I can follow you. Make me laugh and I'm yours.Oh,you already did!
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 15:28:54 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: KitKat or ChitChat
Message:
I was married to a guy who wore a button that said, 'No Chit Chat.' We did lots of nectar back then.

Not kidding.
eb
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 10:17:26 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: KitKat or ChitChat
Message:
eb - I hope you are not still married to this guy! Did he make the kids be quiet too?

I know I said this before, but I always thought that the 'no chit chat' rule was invoked by premies in an effort to stop other premies from talking about something that they personally weren't interested in, or to stop other premies from having a good time when they felt left out. Some of M's satsangs contain an incredible amount of what would be labelled 'chit chat' (but I guess it's 'perfect chit chat'!)
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Date: Thurs, May 14, 1998 at 12:24:36 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: KitKat or ChitChat
Message:
Wow, maybe I met your husband. I have a vague memory of doing service with someone at a festival who wore a button like that.

Whenever we make our video, we gotta have someone wearing a button like that.

Just curious, since I wasn't married then, but what was sex considered? Spacing out? I mean, if you do it without speaking then it's not chit chat. Unless moaning and groaning could be considered a lower form of communication.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:14:30 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Astrology - the end (I hope)
Message:
Sorry, John, I didn't mean to say that we 'shouldn't' discuss astrology in the forum, I meant to say that I didn't want to. (I know, I brought it up in my answer to Keith, but I really didn't think anyone but Keith would be interested). If you wonder WHY I don't want to discuss it, it's because it makes Jim cranky (joke). Seriously, it turns off some of the other people on the forum and it's not very important to me.

I am a scientist, and I know that there is absolutely no scientific basis for astrology. It still interests me, however. I think it's like any other system of divination - it can be a tool for intuitive people to use their intuition to understand themselves and others. This is what I've used it for, but I know other people who use other systems to do the same thing.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:25:48 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Astrology-calling all Scorpios
Message:
Katie,
I think astrology is fun to dabble in, too. But here is a bit of completely unscientific evidence to support your theory that it is hogwash. Anon, Jim, David (I think) and I are all Scorpios! All totally different, but the same sign. Hey, I wonder how many Scorpios are premies or ex-premies...:)VP
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 22:22:33 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Astrology-calling all Scorpios
Message:
VP - here is one of those jokes astrologers like to tell. If someone says that astrology is a bunch of hogwash - ask them what sign they are. Chances are that they'll be a Scorpio. (This actually works, but not always. But it probably infuriates Jim, too!)
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 17:06:50 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: To Katie and Mark Appleman
Message:
I have Saturn sitting right on my ascendant and a moon-Mercury conjunction in Gemini, but I suppose it's all part of the growth process...)

Well, I thought about buying a Saturn, I mean I heard they are good cars and if I had it would have been sitting right on my driveway, but I bought a Subaru instead. The Saturn would have been sitting in conjunction with my Mercury, which is not in capricorn, it's in the garage.

BTW -- Mark Appleman --(hi Mark)-- who just posted in the Rennie Davis thread below and just put in an excellent jouneys entry, if a little too new-age spiritual for my taste, once told me my Saturn (the planet and not the car) was in libra, and because of this, personal relationships would always be a problem for me, but it would also be my liberation. I never really understood this, but this happened while Mark and I lived in the City of Love and Light ashram in San Antonio, Texas, in about 1975.

Hey, Mark. Why not start posting on a regular basis? I think you have a lot to share.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:58:31 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: To Katie and Mark Appleman
Message:
I knew I should have NEVER mentioned anything about astrology here. I thought you guys would let it pass because it was my birthday, but no... See why I don't like to talk about it, John? (Your joke was very funny though, JW. Especially for a Capricorn. ALMOST made it worth it, but not quite.)
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 13:49:20 (EST)
From: U. K. Mole
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Bursting the Bubble
Message:
Hello again. Sorry I’ve been buried underground so long since my last post but I have been burrowing away to some purpose. I’m popping up now with news of Shri Bubblegum Ji’s appearance in the unfortunate town of Bolton, Lancashire last night. As if the presence of Satguru No 2 wasn’t bad enough for the disconsolate citizens of Bolton their football team, Bolton Wanderers, was relegated from the premier league after losing to Chelsea on the very same day.

For the information contained in the following report I am greatly indebted to the courageous efforts of my best agent, now code-named 'Ratty Ji', who successfully infiltrated the meeting and came away unscathed with a secret tape recording of Satpal’s satsang, several publications of hilarious content and 17 photographs taken inside the temple at crucial moments of the proceedings. Obviously these people should be asking P.A.M. for some lessons in security procedure but nonetheless Ratty Ji delivered a magnificent performance well above and beyond the call of duty!

The programme began with the obligatory Hindu bhajans for a crowd of approximately 400 people, all of them of Asian origin except for one young woman, age estimated at early 30’s, who was dressed like an early 70’s 'hippie-chick' and who seemed to be involved in the organisation of the event. After the bhajans several of Bubblegum’s dignitaries were introduced and then came the warm up act: one of Bubblegum’s celebrated Bhai Ji’s. After various announcements reminiscent of Joe Anctil’s frantic attempts to ameliorate the lunacy of those badly organised 70’s festivals, Shri Bubblegum himself was introduced by the Bolton contact I mentioned in my previous posts. While the star of the show was in the process of gracing what passed for the assembled throng with his divine presence he obviously failed to notice Ratty Ji affecting an appropriately blissful smile whilst asking a besotted dignitary if he could take a few snaps of the momentous event. Ratty is a class act himself and had chosen his moment well. In a moment of distraction the guy said yes and Ratty’s smile was suddenly more genuine than the hapless dignitary could have possibly guessed. Two or three other photographers were flashing away merrily, thus providing Ratty with sufficient anonymity.

Bubblegum was ceremoniously garlanded by the 7 - 10 pranaming members of the welcoming committee who were graciously afforded the usual feet kissing privileges of the truly obsequious. Dear readers, I humbly apologise if you’re throwing up by now but this REALLY HAPPENED, and the truth must be told. Presumably to heighten the tension, Shri Satpal teasingly removed the garlands as he prepared to satiate the longing of his deluded devotees.

At last, Bubblegum commenced and was soon proclaiming that he had received knowledge from his father at an early age and had been spreading it tirelessly himself since the death of Shri Hans in 1966. There was not a mention of M throughout the whole evening, nor of the historically indisputable fact that Bubblegum himself had been a not so humble disciple of his youngest brother for several years. He sat bethroned on a time-warped stage replete with (plastic) flowers and dual microphones stylishly projected towards the divine mouth from either side of the chair, a la M circa 1976/7. The lotus feet were, of course, appropriately displayed and luxuriously cushioned.

He spoke almost entirely in Hindi. Ratty’s hidden tape recorder has captured all but a few seconds. The tape change-over occurred during one of Bubblegum’s frequent pauses to pop some dubious looking pills and almost nothing is missing. I have heard the tape and the sound quality is reasonable enough for Ratty to translate so I can transcribe it. In the meantime here is a few snippets.

Bubblegum spent quite some time extolling the virtues of Mata Ji and comparing himself and his mother to Jesus and Mary, Krishna and Davki and Ram and his mother (whose name I have momentarily forgotten). The purpose of this bizarre oration seems to be the establishment of his own legitimacy as the one and only Satguru. He was strongly suggesting that the true master of any given time is always proclaimed and acknowledged as such by his holy mother. The inferences therein regarding M are obvious but still there was no mention of the former child prodigy initially afforded the maternal benediction.

Several passages are straight from the central party line of the seventies. According to Ratty Ji, who still has quite a good collection of DLM and Elan Vital videos, some are even blatant plagiarism of M’s later satsangs. This contention is supported by several publications, in English, that Ratty was able to procure. These are in front of me as I write and even a cursory glance through them makes me feel like I’m slipping into some manic Indian twilight zone.

After the holy mother routine Bubblegum spoke of the divine energy which, as science can prove, (his words, not mine) cannot be created or destroyed. He, as satguru, reveals this energy (God) in the form of light. Ring any bells? His publications make frequent mention of breath, but music and nectar are not prominent. I haven’t had time to wade through this turgid stuff as yet but have noticed several photographs of Mata Ji in all her corpulent glory. There are even some examples of her satsang. However, I digress and time is short.

Bubble Ji was particularly proud of the 'two or three thousand' Indian ashrams he claims to have inherited from his father as well as the even more vague number he claims to have in the U.S. and Africa.

As the program drew to an end there was a short satsang from another Bhai Ji and the great one’s throne and cushion was gingerly placed at the edge of the stage to facilitate darshan. Approximately 40 people accepted this invitation but, not surprisingly, Ratty Ji was not among them. As the Bhai Ji’s graciously accepted the devotees’ money, Ratty valiantly sublimated his disgust long enough to discreetly capture some choice toe kissing for photographic posterity and then scarpered with his loot while the going was good. Were he a military man I, as his self-appointed commanding officer, would have no hesitation in recommending him for the Victoria Cross!

Very late last night he finally arrived safely at my house, mission well and truly accomplished. I don’t have access to a scanner so we are arranging for the photos to be developed onto a CD-Rom but this may take a couple of weeks. I will then devise a method of making them available without compromising our security, possibly via a temporary web page. I’m sorry to be so secretive but we both have a lot to lose and much we would like to do, but can’t as yet discuss. Ratty Ji is particularly displeased with the way Bubblegum is abusing the natural cultural and religious disposition of the Asian community and enticing them into a self-serving devotional guru-cult which is in his opinion (and mine) devoid of any true experience.

Bubblegum is appearing in London on Wednesday 13th May at 8 p.m. at the following address. For obvious reasons Ratty is on indefinite leave from active service and will not be attending.

Shri Nathji Sanatan Mandir (Temple)
159/161 Whipps Cross Road
Leytonstone
London E11 INP
Telephone: 0181 939 7539 (from within U.K)

Bubble Ji has recently established a U.K. office and National Secretary

Mr. Prakash Panchal (Secretary)
Spiritual Life Society (U.K.)
4 Coppins Lane
Milton Keynes
England
Telephone: 01908 311954 (from within U.K)

On Thursday 14th May Bubblegum is flying out for a program in New Jersey. I don’t know the venue and date but am trying to find out. To the American forum participants I offer my heartfelt condolences but please understand we Brits have had more than enough.

Well, I think that’s about it for now. I’ll log on tomorrow evening, (British time) and try to answer any enquiries arising from this post as best I can. Please forgive me if I decline to answer questions of a personal nature. In the meantime, I leave you with an ancient Gaelic valediction: 'may you be half an hour in Heaven before the devil knows you’re dead.'

U.K. Mole.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 14:40:09 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: U. K. Mole
Subject: Bursting the Bubble
Message:
Dear UK Mole,
Your post was great - thank you very much. And please convey my thanks to Ratty Ji, for service that was obviously above and beyond the call of duty!

My guess is that BBJ is trying to co-opt little bro's incursions into the ranks of potential Asian devotees. He obviously is keeping all the Hindi trappings, etc, which GMJ has given up ('in the West', anyway.) Wish I could go to that program in New Jersey!

Thanks again, Mole,
Katie
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:43:29 (EST)
From: U. K. Mole
Email: None
To: Katie et al
Subject: Bursting the Bubble
Message:
Hi Katie (and everyone else),

Thank you for your kind words regarding our humble efforts. Ratty Ji has asked me to convey his warm regards to you all. He’s happily at home now with his family recovering from his ordeal and having a good time laughing at Bubble’s satsang. We’ll be providing translations of excerpts, at least, in the near future.

My guess is that BBJ is trying to co-opt little bro's incursions into the ranks of potential Asian devotees. He obviously is keeping all the Hindi trappings, etc, which GMJ has given up ('in the West', anyway.)

Yes, Katie, the Hindu trappings play well to the Asian audience, even in the west. He seems to be making no effort to reach the indigenous British. Presumably he believes his brother has already soaked up the susceptible market for the Hippy-Hindu trip and I don’t think he’s sufficiently westernised himself to do an M and re-package the product for an increasingly materialistic market. I’ve spoken to Ratty Ji on the phone earlier this evening. He recommends you avoid New Jersey like the plague for the next few weeks. I concur. Do you have the 'out of the frying pan into the fire' proverb over there? I’m sure you get the gist, anyway.

Jim wrote:
On other fronts, may I say that I've been communicating with the host of BBJ's web site who is having a very healthy reaction to all disclosure. More, I cannot say.

Excellent news Jim. Feel free to send him my post, if you haven’t already done so. I am not charging copyright fees. A recent E.V. leaflet concerning M’s tour has come into my possession today. It’s just a list of M’s programs in the forthcoming months: all of it previously known. But it contains an interesting thing I haven’t seen before:

'No part of this publication may be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any means, including electronic or mechanical or information and retrieval systems, without the prior written permission of Visions International. Copyright © 1998 Visions International. All rights reserved.'

Well, well, well! I wonder who that’s referring too?

'eldest liar' wrote:

Do you have any comments from dear old mom you want to share with us tonight?…. What ARE the virtues of mata ji that he extolled?

Not much to add on that as yet. There are some satsangs from her in the publications and I’ll select a few snippets for your entertainment when I have a chance. Expect some over the weekend when the phone rates in the U.K. are drastically reduced. We have to pay call charges for every second on the phone over here, even for local calls. That’s why the internet hasn’t taken off as a mass market service.

Whats the excuse he has for not coming to the west till now?

Actually, it seems he has been coming to England quite regularly for several years but keeps a very low profile, or has up till now. He has kept a number of the more religiously orientated devotees since the big bust-up over M’s marriage to Marolyn. As far as I can gather the only significant propagation that’s happened has been the generational growth from devotees having children. This has probably at least managed to keep pace with the older ones dying off. His strongholds are in the large Asian communities of the Midlands and the North West of England. This latest tour seems to be his first serious attempt to seriously expand but is still targeting only the Asian community. All his flyers and posters were written in Hindi or Gujerati. I can’t help suggesting that perhaps his motivation is not all that surprising. He’s obviously very rich by Indian standards. Not quite in the private jet class, as far as we know, but by no means short of a bob or two. His problem is that India has very strict exchange regulations and getting money out legally is almost impossible. Perhaps the lure of some hard currency safely stashed in the west is a heady fragrance to the eldest Rawat?

Krishna used to -ahem-LOVE his gopis, any sign that eldest ji has a harum? Sounds like all the helpers are bai's -women.

Funny you should ask! One of the magazines in my possession has photos and satsangs from a couple of rather fetching Indian ladies. One is called Shri Mangla Ji and her satsang is entitled, 'Listen, understand then practice'. I found this curious, especially the use of the word, 'practice'. This magazine is called Manav Dharma and is dated October 1990: round about the time M was getting rid of Indian expressions like 'meditation'. There is another photo of Mangla Ji sitting demurely beside another lady called Shri Amrita Ji and a few pages later there’s a photo of Mangla Ji 'with youngest daughter, Shivani'. On Bubble Ji’s web-site there is a picture of Bubble with 'Mata Shri Amrita Ji' and I presume that’s his wife. The magazines I have don’t seem to say who the other lady is.

Any news in the magazines on the lard of music?
Or he doesnt make the divinity cut either.
The -Just ma and me roadshow-.
are there photos of his wife and kids? SOMEONE has to wear the
crown in his side of the clan after he dies.


I’ve found no mention of lard ji as yet and I can’t say I’m sorry. It was bad enough finding several of Mata Ji!

By the way, didnt marolyn's letter sound like she is the perfect
example of what happens when your husband thinks that
rage and fury is a tool for ego smashing?


I read that letter with very mixed feelings. In the England of the fifties boys were brought up to believe that the fact one is not born a gentleman does not constitute a valid reason for failing to behave like one. This applied to we working class types even though the gentry was obviously full of total scoundrels. Yes, I can see Marolyn may have had an easy life and we’ve paid for it but she seems to be paying too in her own way. Very sad.

I’m running out of time now so I’ll finish off and get this posted. I’ll be back with more news in a day or two.

U. K. Mole.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 00:19:31 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: U. K. Mole
Subject: Bursting the Bubble
Message:
I'm very interested in the transcripts as well as the pictures that were taken. I realize that you are concerned about anonymity, but can assure you that anyone sending me material for the site (at either brian@ex-premie.org or webmaster@ex-premie.org) will have their identity kept secret.

Please feel free to send the gif files to me here. I do want to put a few pages on the site relating to this Divine Sibling Rivalry. I already have copies of the BBJ website pages, but nothing beats an eyewitness account.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 18:02:52 (EST)
From: U.K. Mole
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Brian - Please Read
Message:
Hi Brian,

Ratty Ji is continuing to translate the audio tape and I will have some bits typed up in the next few days. He tells me there are still some frames left on his film that he wants to use up at the weekend. He wants some photos of his family. We've made enquiries about getting the film developed onto a CD-Rom and the shortest time estimate we've had so far is 10 -14 days. I don't know why it should take so long. It seems to be a rare request in this part of the world.

You have given me your word on the anonymity issue and I have no doubt as to your integrity on the matter. So I will e-mail you with transcripts and the photos as soon as they are available.

Warm regards,

U. K. Mole.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 19:38:28 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: U.K. Mole
Subject: Great!
Message:
The issue here isn't who you are, so I don't expect anyone to even ask. The real issue is the Sibling Satgurus. The Two Stooges - Larry, Curly, and let's hope there ain't no Moe popping up.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 21:44:30 (EST)
From: U. K. Mole
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Great!
Message:
Or a Moe - ette, perchance?
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 18:28:08 (EST)
From: Non
Email: None
To: U. K. Mole
Subject: Bursting the Bubble
Message:
Were he a military man I, as his self-appointed commanding officer, would have no hesitation in recommending him for the Victoria Cross!

Good work Commanding Officer Mole and Lieutenant Ratty. I look forward to seeing the scans..should be amusing. Be sure to publish the URL here. What fun.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 18:30:23 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: U. K. Mole
Subject: Bursting the Bubble
Message:
Thank you for posting this insightful information. It's kind of unbelievable, but very funny. This whole guru-trip gets more outrageous all the time, and because of people like you this forum is getting to be more fun all the time, too.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 20:54:37 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Bursting the Bubble
Message:
Commmander Mole,

Your report is cheeky but succint. We will accept it. Good work, man, and buy a round for the Ratty man.

On other fronts, may I say that I've been communicating with the host of BBJ's web site who is having a very healthy reaction to all disclosure. More, I cannot say.

Very funny. Very funny indeed.

Jim
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 20:40:04 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: U. K. Mole
Subject: Bubble Gum Ji was never F.M.
Message:
Hi:

My roommate's cousin is visiting from northern India. He is a politically savvy young man and when I told him about BBJ (Santpal Rawat) having been Finance Minister he had a hearty laugh. Thinking that perhaps I'd gotten the name wrong I took him to BBJ's site so that he could look at a picture. This guy can recite the F.M.s for the last 30 years and he says that BBJ has never been, nor will ever be, Finance Minister of India. This office as just not that sort of political plum. It is almost always awarded to someone with real talent, usually educated with an advanced degree at Cambridge. The most recent F.M., prior to the current one, was a fellow named Shri P Chidambaram. I've seen his picture and he does not look anything like BBJ. He says he will provide us with a comprehensive list of F.M.s, and Santpal Rawat will not be among them.

-Scott
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 21:06:43 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Bubble Gum Ji was never F.M.
Message:
Scott,

Methinks you're wrong. If you do a search on 'Satpal Maharaj' you'll find pages that say stuff like this:

The South African High Commissioner, Mr. Matsila called on the Minister of State for Finance, Shri Satpal Maharaj, at New Delhi yesterday and offered long term collaboration between India and South Africa in exchange of technology and design for coin making. He said he would guarantee security.

Then, on other pages, there's bio stuff that confirms that this is the one and only Satpal and no other (birthday, Shri Hans as dad).
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 22:23:51 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bubble Gum Ji was never F.M.
Message:
Jim:

My source (in whom I am rapidly losing confidence) holds that the position of 'Minister of State for Finance' is a far cry from the position of 'Finance Minister.' When I attempted to press him on what the various Ministers of State do, why there is a difference, he apparently lost much of his surety. He claims it is still an important position, but there are two or three really killer portfolios in Indian Government, and F.M. is one. Another is Minister for External Affairs.. According to this source there are many Ministers of State for various things and there is no apparent limit on the number that can be appointed. However, he does not seem to know what these Ministers do, and I can't figure out why the Minister of State for External Affairs would be different from the plain old Minister for External Affairs, so I don't see why the F.M. would be different either. In short, I think the expert status of my consultant is not very impressive. Still, some bureaucracies are inscrutable, and there may well be a difference. What we need is a consultant with better credentials.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 01:49:35 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The Council of Ministers
Message:
Jim:

My roommate and his cousin are convinced that there is a fundamental difference between Ministers of State and Cabinet Ministers. After some research it appears that Ministers of State are between Cabinet Ministers and Deputy Ministers and the three groups together compose the Council of Ministers that is the executive power of the government and is headed by the P.M. Ministers of State can have an 'independent charge' or they may serve under a Cabinet Minister. I have no particular reason to believe that Satpal Maharaj did not have an independent charge, but rather served under a cabinet minister. In fact, the present structure designates a Minister of State for Finance, but no Finance Minister within the Cabinet. These seem obscure differences, but they may be important in Indian politics.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 08:43:02 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Indian Political Structure
Message:
I found information on the structure of Indian government, and the role of the Council of Ministers at the following site.

Indian Political Structure

I also sent a query to a fellow named G. D. Jasuja, who maintains a site about governmental structure of India. He says the following about the difference between cabinet ministers and ministers of state:

'The difference is in the rank. It's like manager, deputy manager and assistant manager. Cabinet ministers, Ministers of state and deputy ministers are ranked in the descending order. Their perks, benefits (facilities), powers are as per their post. The Prime Minister's rank is also that of the Cabinet rank.'
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 00:14:31 (EST)
From: to
Email: None
To: U. K. Mole
Subject: agent 707
Message:
Thank you for that great and halarious report.
You empire wielding brits are very funny chaps.

There were 5,500 attendees at a recent m program in England.
something should be done about that. Before it grows.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 00:47:04 (EST)
From: eldest liar
Email: None
To: U. K. Mole
Subject: Bursting the Bubble
Message:
Thank you Sir Mole man and Agent Ratty.
Ratty's video collection-finally, someone with videos from
the glory years!
That alone is great news.
Do you have any comments from dear old mom you want
to share with us tonight?
Whatever you have planned, I am willing to try to duplicate
it here in the states.
Whatever Sir Ratty wants.

What ARE the virtues of mata ji that he extolled?
I am sure if prem is watching he will wonder also.
Boy, those brothers hate each other.
Whats the excuse he has for not coming to the west till now?
Krishna used to -ahem-LOVE his gopis, any sign that
eldest ji has a harum? Sounds like all the helpers are bai's
-women.
Any news in the magazines on the lard of music?
Or he doesnt make the divinity cut either.
The -Just ma and me roadshow-.
are there photos of his wife and kids? SOMEONE has to wear the
crown in his side of the clan after he dies.

By the way, didnt marolyn's letter sound like she is the perfect
example of what happens when your husband thinks that
rage and fury is a tool for ego smashing?
Nice work rawat.
notice there was no mention of god in her universe. just the
master rawat and his unhappy universe where the only
refuge is the breath. The poor woman. When her story is told
by others fully, you will see an abuse story big time.
I will have to tell the ones I know.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 08:00:47 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: U. K. Mole
Subject: The Jain Report
Message:
Hi:

I am curious as to whether anyone has read the Jain report that brought down the last government. Was Satpal Maharaj mentioned? It appears that someone told him that he no longer has a future in Indian politics, so he has gone back to his 'day job.' The Jain report is on the web somewhere, but I don't recall the URL.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 12:41:34 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Why BBJ left politics
Message:
It looks as though the political career of Satpal Maharaj was cut short by two things: 1. The return to politics of the traditional Congress Party MP, and 2. Satpal's support by a splinter party that was seen to have connections with a mass rape, which caused him to lose the women's vote. Here are a couple of relevant paragraphs from the Hindustani Times, Feb. 17, 1998:

'In the year 1991, Maj. Gen. Khanduri defeated Congress candidate Satpal Maharaj by a victory margin of 25,000 votes. In the next election in 1996, Satpal bagged the seat from Khandurion Congress (T) ticket by a victory margin of 12,500 votes. This time he has formed his own party, the All India Indira Congress (Secular) and is contesting on the United Front ticket.

The advantage with Satpal Maharaj is that he is the sitting MP and a Thakur. The Thakurs form 47 per cent of the total votes. But it is perceived that the factors which may go against him is that with Mr Narain Dutt Tiwari's return to the Congress, Satpal Maharaj may not have the backing of traditional Congress voters. Besides, women who are over 50 per cent of the total voters, stated to be against the Samajwadi Party after the Muzaffarnagar incident on Oct. 2, 1992, during Mulayam Singh Yadav's Chief Ministership in UP.

In this incident several women who were going in buses for the rally for demand of Uttarakhand statehood, were allegedly raped on the way.

And, since Satpal Maharaj is supported by SP, being the candidate of the United Front, his rivals are propagating the incident.

Although Satpal Maharaj is a Rajput in all likelihood this vote bank will get divided. The reason: Bahujan Samaj Party candidate Harak Singh Rawat is a Thakur; the BJP has very strategically recruited many Rajput leaders and the Rajputs as a whole have traditionally been part of the vote bank of the Congress.
'

-Scott
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 14:52:16 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Why BBJ left politics
Message:
How incredible that neither M or his brother are acknowledging one another's (rival) existence.
He did hint at family problems when he said stuff like, family, neighbours, etc, all they want is stuff from you, like borrow your lawn mower (they don't really care about you) and...not to call him uncle, he is nobody's uncle...I mean seeing his daughter singing devotional songs to him was at first a mixed feeling for me...because of the small glimpses I have learned about families, emotional incest (where a child gets elevated to the position of partner in some way - way out of their depth and very damaging) - it was weird to see her singing songs of love and dreaming about being taken to him and all that stuff...about her own father...but of course he's not her father, I guess, just like he's not an uncle.
So he can't be a husband, either. Because yes, he is not really human at all? Then why marry and have a family?
Oh, the politics of religion.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 11:20:50 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: U. K. Mole
Subject: Bursting little bro's Bubble
Message:
Forum spies-

Some of you with intestinal fortitude really should go to a program and report back. That post was hilarious. Good work, Mole and Ratty! Keep us up to date. VP

P.S. If you go, be sure to get me a coffee mug and get some chocolate for Mili...
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 08:44:11 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Outing yourself
Message:
I got some email today that raised this question:

How do you tell people (premie friends/relatives) that you are no longer a follower of Maharaji?

The site should be dealing with this and I'd like some input on it. I went through the process while completely cut off from the premie community and so didn't have to wrestle with it. But I'm sure it's a big problem for people working their way through their own doubts and attempting to get back to their own selves. Peer pressure is certainly a problem, and even more so when there are implied SERIOUS consequences from breaking free of the cult's beliefs (lack of grace, reincarnation as a bug, whatever). It's got to be far worse when those around you are concerned that your leaving not only invites these horrible events into your life, but also hints that it could happen to them too if they were to entertain any of their own personal doubts about the little Fraud.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 13:09:41 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Outing yourself
Message:
When I left BM, I was fortunate to not be in proximity to any premies, but it was remarkable how friends and relatives just didn't care much, one way or the other. BM held little interest to people I knew who weren't premies; it seemed like they just didn't take him seriously. When I describe BM to people who didn't know me back then, the only description the recognize is the 'thirteen year-old boy guru'... then they get a look on their faces like 'Who gives a shit.' It's disappointing.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 16:26:27 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Outing yourself
Message:
Where I live, the premie community has dwindled down to a small handfull of people. They are people I don't have anything in common with anyway, so not seeing them is no big deal. I suspect this is true in a lot of places, with the exception of the former hot spots like LA or Miami, where it's easier for people to keep up a pretense since there are still a lot of them.
I did have one problem with one premie. She basically sent a whole lot of hate my way, lots of it based on my lack of interest in continuing to go to events, videos, or talk about how wonderful M was. In retrospect, I could have handled all that with more kindness and understanding. I think I was feeling the need to defend myself and make a strong enough statement so that there was no turning back. She was an exceptional 'true believer', so I felt the need to be very abrupt and I definitly closed the door.

Like I said, I do regret I couldn't have been more gracious. But, except for the personal issues of reawakening and learning how to think for yourself and lose all the old tapes, do you really think there's that much external pressure? If people are really friends or really love you, they should be able to accept the decision to leav M. If they can't perhaps the ex premie is better off without them.
I have actually been much happier since dropping
all that baggage and would repeat the harder part for me has been reprogromming myself.
I do think places like Miami may be harder though. There's a lot of community issues just cause there's more premies. Prmies work together, are in business together,etc.. that would be hard I imagine. My solution to that would be to move, Miami sucks anyway, (just kidding sort of)
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 08:54:49 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Brian
Subject: Ex's with premie friends
Message:
The only one I can think of right now is Anon. How is it/has it been for you, Anon or any other fence sitting premie or ex that still has premie friends?
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:33:02 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Ex's with premie friends
Message:
The only one I can think of right now is Anon. How is it/has it been for you, Anon or any other fence sitting premie or ex that still has premie friends?

Fine, except for a few people with whom I seem to have developed irreconcilable differences. I have one particular very old friend who I just cannot have a conversation with, without it turning into a slanging match about M and knowledge. We both received Knowledge together in '74 and go back together as far as school. He is pretty intensely reactive to my new feelings, perhaps because we are so very close.
I have managed to annoy a few others too, although I have to say most practising premie friends are quite cool with me and just beg to differ. Quite a few actually like to talk about M in a critical way, and seem to largely understand the difficulties I and others have.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 20:41:54 (EST)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Ex's with premie friends
Message:
i remember being on that ladder
begging you not to kick that
damn soccer ball at me
Scorpio That you are , son of your own
Wil , you decided to stand pat,Rick:
and kick the ball close enough to
tease me;
Hmmm, should I do the same?. . .
or should you face the music. . .
and the will of Tim. and the NoelSoul
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 07:22:29 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: contentment (therapy segment)
Message:
Here is something I have been turning over...

One thing that really hooked me into knowledge was the idea that 'people are never satisfied', the more you have the more you want, ( M pointed out for example that a millionaire always wants to be a billionaire, etc)- and the seeming promise that following this path would bring me contentment/ fulfilment/PEACE.

Well maybe correctly naming an issue doesn't mean that person also has the right solution - but what happens to that issue - are there other ways to address it. Is 'not being ever satisfied' a source of pain or just a normal healthy part of life? Are desires a cause of pain? I hope this topic isn't too heavy but it's part of my de-programming to ask these kind of questions and I value the input. my mind is an empty slate today...(I'm not full of worries and confusion, strangely enough, and I haven't practiced for over a week!)
Regards to all
by the way..a quote I remembered from JC...the love of money is the root of all evil
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 12:05:28 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: about mindfucking gurus
Message:
>Well maybe correctly naming an issue doesn't mean that person >also has the right solution - but what happens to that issue - >are there other ways to address it. Is 'not being ever >satisfied' a source of pain or just a normal healthy part of >life? Are desires a cause of pain?

Why don't you ask that same question to Mr Rawat himself ?
He's obviously not a perpetually satisfied person, he's pissed off like anybody could be: pissed with his family, with EV, with the people serving him, etc, to the point he drinks beyond reason.
I’m also pissed off at times, I don’t drink,
I don’t take drugs.
He's obviously blissed out when people express their love to him, who wouldn't ? Or when he gets wonderful gifts, and huge transfers on his bank account, who wouldn't ?
He’s very proud of flying his jet, I would be too, blissed out when he drives his sports cars, I would enjoy
driving them too, etc.
As premies, we also experienced moments of bliss, and trance (for some people sometimes), due to the relation we had/have with our guru.
Meditation, if you like it and if you’re able to enjoy it (obviously some people can’t),
is also something that can bring you in some state of inner satisfaction or bliss.
But all these good moments never answered the big question.
Maybe some persons achieve a state of permanent bliss, why not, but at what cost ? Is this what you really want ? Leave this world ?
If you really want to, I would suggest to find a master who really did himself.
M himself says that there are ups and downs in life.
What is satisfaction ?
Forget about the ‘real’ one ! What is so real about the state of trance you might experience
in a devotional relationship ? That should be called ‘state of devotional trance’,
that’s about its only reality.
Mr Rawat is playing with words, changing their definitions, then you don’t
know what you’re talking about anymore.
This is what’s mindfucking.
A real ‘spiritual’ teaching shouldn’t involve any of these rhetoric.
If there is something to learn and to feel inside, and if there is more to know about it,
I can’t see why there should be any mystery about it, and why we shouldn’t be able
to normally talk about it, and use our intellect to its best capacities (forbidden in
EV and with PPR).
There is absolutely no need to redefine reality.
That’s obviously not the case with Mr Rawat.
Why doesn’t he simply say that ‘his knowledge’ is a way to experience
some state of devotional trance, that some people might enjoy.
Of course he couldn’t make a fantastic business with this.
If you carefully look at it, there is nothing more in this,
for me anyway.
I’ve been a devotee for 25 years, enough is enough.

>by the way..a quote I remembered from JC...
>the love of money is the root of all evil

Do you know what ? Shri Hans said exactly the same thing,
« The Satguru is one who has no greed, no attachment, no pride,
no jealousy. He always speaks of spiritual matters, and removes
the jealousy, pain, doubt and attachment of others..... »
(Hans Yog Prakash, page 19)
Funny, isn’t it ?
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 17:19:40 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: contentment (therapy segment)
Message:
One thing that really hooked me into knowledge was the idea that 'people are never satisfied', the more you have the more you want, ( M pointed out for example that a millionaire always wants to be a billionaire, etc)- and theseeming promise that following this path would bring me contentment/fulfilment/PEACE.

This is just Hindu philosophy. Kind of the 'wheel of pleasure and pain' doctrine that underlies what BM has always said. But think about it. Is being 'satisfied' (whatever THAT is) a good thing? If you were 'satisfied,' I doubt you would be motivated to do much of anything. Often people who inject heroin feel extremely 'satisfied' and don't really want to do much of anything, until it wears off and they need to get more. That's what 'satisfaction' will do for you.

The whole idea of 'satisfaction' is so indicative of the misleading bullshit BM spouted. I mean, don't you WANT to have a desire for sex? and food? I mean, aren't those desires really good and part of the spice of life. Do you want to be 'satisfied' such that you have no libido and couldn't care less what you eat? And I'm sorry, but money is NOT the root of all evil. It is a valuable tool and commodity. That's what it is. It's what you do with it that's significant, or if you can't get any and suffer that way too. I mean, if money were the root of all evil, why does BM have so much of it? Does that make him the devil?

And I can't say I was ever 'satisfied' as a premie, and I never met a premie who was. Plus, as JM has mentioned, BM isn't satisfied either. He always wants more material stuff too, all the while preaching this stuff in the most hypocritical fashion.

I think dealing with your desires is just a matter of maturity. It involves finding out what is really important to you and to pursue that, without spending time pursuing 'desires' that aren't really all that important. It means moderation and viewing what you desire and do with balance and maturity. Following BM will not help you in that regard.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 17:43:21 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: A comment, small
Message:
I think the whole trip of wanting to be free from the cycle of birth and death is totally WIERD. Let's say that there is an intelligence that put us here. Well, for us to hate our lives sooooo much that we just want to impose all this suffering on ourselves, in the name of spiritual growth, just so we don't have to come back here again is really the ultimate insult to the power that created this whole scene, IMHO.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 19:40:57 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: John
Subject: A comment, small
Message:
You're right, John, it doesn't make any sense. That was probably partly why I was attracted to it. It was so stupid that I thought it was a kind of spiritual riddle that I wasn't evolved enough to understand.

BM can just be so simplistic and ignorant in some of the stuff he says, which I accepted of course, without question. I used to just hate the way he summarily described the way every person in 'the world' is, basically that they were all crazy and confused. Excuse me? How the fuck do you know? Do you ever talk to people; do you even care how people live and what they are concerned about? And who are you to judge people? And it's so insulting to peoples' intelligence when he does that.

This comes to mind because of that statement that everyone has insatiable desires and all millionaires want to become billionaires. You know what? There are a whole lot of people I know personally who are very happy with their lives. They are not freaked out and miserable and they spend a lot of time giving of themselves for the betterment of people less fortunate than they are. This is very fulfilling to them.

And there are a whole lot of people I have personally met who care very little about money. They don't even think about being millionaires or billionaires.

Come to think of it, probabaly BM says that stuff about desires and money because it's all HE thinks about.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 05:45:32 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: A comment, small
Message:
This is a great point of view. You know it's very strange that since I have been wanting to change, I have been meeting entirely different people with different values, just like you describe. M was the antidote to something horrible I was experiencing (in myself and others) but I seem to be floating out of that cloud.

I'm still actually most amazed by the dysfunctional family/father connection that some people made about M and knowledge. And that M is alcoholic - I really would like more confirmation of this. Actual facts - what is the true story on this?

this Forum is brilliant for me because usually when I get involved in something I only get one point of view. eg an ideology in a book, a teacher focused on a concept or an authority figure who won't be questioned. There is a lot of caring and thoughtfulness here and a broad spectrum of ideas and beliefs.
I hope it continues to be so multi-faceted.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 09:11:42 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jude
Subject: A comment, small
Message:
Dear Jude,
I think it is wonderful that as your/my conscienceness changes our world begins to incorporate those changes. This is the basis for the way I move forward on my path in this life. I think this is what I want/need to work on now and before long it starts to manifest in my life. For me, it points to how connected everthing/one is and it makes life worth living as it is interesting and within my scope to mold.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 12:23:36 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: JW
Subject: A comment, small
Message:
Joe, the idea of release from cyclic existence (i.e. attainment of nirvana) is basic Hindu and Buddhist philosophy, which BM has incorporated into his rap. During my five years studying Buddhism, I used to think to myself I never made a very good Buddhist because I didn't have much interest in attaining enlightment and escaping the samsaric cycle of birth and death. The whole concept is about escaping suffering, but you're right, it doesn't acknowledge the beauty and joy of life. One of the 'Four Noble Truths' of Buddhism is that 'samsara is an ocean of suffering, unendurable and unbearably intense'. I'm sure we have all had that experience, but it certainly is not my total experience, and I agree that it's an insult to the creator to deny the beauty and grace inherent in life and existence.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 05:37:18 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: John
Subject: A comment, small
Message:
Yeah good point.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 05:35:49 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: contentment (therapy segment)
Message:
Thanks JW
I always really enjoy your posts but never feel the need to reply (they must be very satisfying?) - in fact I'm wondering if you're a psychiatrist or therapist? (none of my business, is it) Anyway, you know good stuff.

I won't answer the rest of what you said because it all makes perfect sense and is very helpful and appreciated as is 99% of what I read here...(I'm easy to please)...however...

Why I put that in is - the LOVE of money is the saying, often confused with how you read it.

- I suppose it's just an oldie like power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely

maybe subconsciously I am trying to excuse M. Have to think about it.
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Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 at 20:05:38 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rennie Davis sucks
Message:
Anyone see the special on the Chicago Seven (Eight) last night on the History channel? I think that's where it was.

Anyway, at the end they did a 'whatever happened to...' moment on each guy. Jerry became a network maven and died crossing Wilshire Blvd. in L.A.. Abbie killed himself in '89. Lee works for the A.D.L.... Then they did Rennie. They showed him onstage at a program saying 'Bhole Shri Satguru Dev Maharaj ki Jai!' and then they showed him kneeling next to and chatting with a teenge Maharaji seated on his throne at a program. Then they showed Rennie today -- gaunt, pony-tailed old-hippie look. He just smiled and said that all that 'inward looking' stuff was a really positive period in his life. Smiled and laughed.

That is so disgustingly superficial. I might be able to buy it from a common premie, not a ringleader. Anyone remember W.W.A.?
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Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 at 22:10:00 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@Mail.trib.net
To: Jim
Subject: Rennie Davis
Message:
Hi Jim -
No I don't remember W.W.A. (what is it? Sounds like something from the Depression). I tend to feel sympathetic for Rennie and to give him the benefit of the doubt because he was so USED by Maharaji and company to make their cause legitimate. I know I've talked about this on here before, but I heard Rennie speak on the Soul Rush tour and he really got heckled and more (rotten vegetables thrown at him) by the former Movement people. He gave a good speech, nonetheless. Some of it wasn't even classic satsang.

Anyway, I am wondering what he means by 'a positive period in his life'. I guess I think it could mean something more than what it sounds like. I could almost say that following M was 'positive' for me because I was about to self-destruct thru drugs, casual sex and weird spiritual trips when I found DLM. At least I quit doing most of that stuff for a while. I don't thank M for this - I guess I thank the premies who were nice enough to act like they cared about me (even if, as you say, they really didn't). They certainly acted like they cared about me more than my parents did.

I'm also wondering if Rennie Davis has a similar story to tell. I can't imagine that he would view his involvement with Big M as positive unless he possibly felt he had 'learned' something from it. Otherwise he'd still be involved, right? Maybe he just doesn't want to say anything negative, for some reason we don't know.
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Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 at 22:36:31 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Katie
Subject: Rennie Davis
Message:
Maybe he just doesn't want to say anything negative, for some reason we don't know.

I'm sure he has dealt with the press enough to know that a negative story gets more coverage that a positive one. If he wants to put it behind him the best way would be to say vague non-newsworthy things about that period in his life.

Should he ever want to post here it would probably be under a pseudonym. Anything else would just risk being used by people again to publicize yet another movement. His access to Maharaji was based on his high profile, and I'm sure he's enjoying just being a person after all these years.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 02:02:32 (EST)
From: mark appleman
Email: Apple4256@aol.com
To: Brian
Subject: Rennie Davis
Message:
Actually, i just recieved communication from Boulder
by Rennie last week. I also recently read
his book' The Great Turning ' and included it as recommended reading
in my journey post.
Rennie is involved with planetary awakening &
his personal direction to assist in this current
has travelled from SDS/anti-war to DLM to ecology to
discussing the consciousness shift / acceleration
we have all been a part of our entire lives
it is THE planetary happening

Mr Rawat and his circus are just some
low-level acrobats
optional hors d'oevres
in all this shift./ and one approach
apres hors d'oevres
is take what you can
and move on.his focus in DLM
was really millenium.
When it failed miserably,
he quietly moved towards the
door, and disengaged a few years later ( 1976)

Rennie is still a seeker/orator.
He seeks and then communicates to the masses what
he's experienced.
He's not particularly a shrinking violet.
He should show up in the media again
as we approach the year 2000.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 05:32:11 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: mark appleman
Subject: Rennie Davis
Message:
the consciousness shift / acceleration
we have all been a part of our entire lives
it is THE planetary happening


Dear mark,
I read with delight your Journeys posting, if that's the right word considering the circumstances. It was another powerful communication from a lot of gutsy people willing to speak up.

I was wondering if you would generally outline the consciousness shift paradigm you refer to...what is the shift meant to be towards?
Where do the ideas come from?
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 05:56:16 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: mark appleman
Subject: Rennie Davis
Message:
Hi Mark,
Welcome to the fray. I loved your 'Journeys' entry...great to hear from you again. I say again because we know each other. As you can see I prefer to stay anonymous in these here debates but you will remember me. Remember when we painted that ladies house (you, me and Nigel). She went out, I spilled paint all over the bedroom, Nigel trod it downstairs, the washing machine overflowed and she came back and screamed! We went and bought her flowers and all ended with a big hug. I will email you privately dear bro'.
Anon
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 08:56:57 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Anon
Subject: Rennie Davis
Message:
Remember when we painted that ladies house (you, me and Nigel). She went out, I spilled paint all over the bedroom, Nigel trod it downstairs, the washing machine overflowed and she came back and screamed! We went and bought her flowers and all ended with a big hug.

They should give out medals to people who tolerated premie service! I remember when I was living at the Denver ashram in 72 and had a service doing gardening for Mrs. Patterson, the mother of Bill & Jane. I viewed it as communing with Mother Maharaji's Nature. She just wanted her damn lawn mowed. Used to take me forever to do it!!

Also, how come I just knew it was you who spilled the paint? :)
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 11:10:05 (EST)
From: JIm
Email: None
To: mark appleman
Subject: Rennie Davis
Message:
Mark,

I just want to suggest that anyone who hasn't read your 'journey' thing yet, do so. It's clever and, as they still say here in Canada (believe it or not) often 'right on'. I part ways with you on the spiritual stuff but the retrospective was great. Thanks.

As far as Rennie goes, a lot of people, mainly ones who never had his close up view of the guru, never had the chance to get so disillusioned so fully so easily so up close and personal. Rennie was there for Maharaji 'unplugged' you could say. Rennie really helped Maharaji build his cage in the early 70s. Sure, unwitting accomplice and all, but there's no getting away from the fact that he jumped in and took on the highest-profile/ credibility-dependent role he could. That's why I think it's highly unethical for him to carry on as an 'orator' without clearing expressing his disillusionment with Maharaji.

In the show he says that the experience was a 'really valuable experiment' or something like that. Well, wipe that smile off your face for second, Rennie, and tell us how the experiement turned out. Some people are sill dropping off their specimens faithfully.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 16:49:58 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: mark appleman
Subject: Rennie Davis
Message:
>Mr Rawat and his circus are just some low-level acrobats

Why certainly!

M delivered very good talks in Miami Beach last weekend.
He continues to be an inspiring master of simplicity, clarity and truth.

Good day,
CD
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 20:03:32 (EST)
From: tired of bullshit
Email: tired of bullshit
To: CD
Subject: tired of bullshit
Message:
I didn't surrender my life for 'very good talks'. Did you?

TOB.

Saw Hendrix live 1970.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 20:35:58 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: tired of bullshit
Subject: life and talk
Message:
>I didn't surrender my life for 'very good talks'. Did you?

No, I didn't either.
The evidence has to be substantial.
The obvious may not be apparent.

'Blue are the life-giving waters taken for granted,
they quietly understand'

I saw Hendrix live 5 times.
He tuned his guitar down by a half note.

Well if a 6, was a 9, I don't mind, I don't mind.
Are you experienced?

Thank you As you well know you just
can't believe everything thing you see and hear, can you? Now, if
you'll excuse me, I must be on my way.


Sing on,
CD
living on the third stone from the Sun
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:32:12 (EST)
From: even more tired of bull..
Email: even more tired of bullshit
To: CD
Subject: even more tired of bullshit
Message:
The obvious may not be apparent

to you at least...

EMTOB.

Heard the first live transmission of Shostakovich's 15th
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 13:12:42 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: even more tired of bull..
Subject: new shit
Message:
I see you have switched to chicken shit.

Embarrased by your own name, now that's a shame.
Music is your bright side, shine on to love.
Xcuse me while I kiss the sky in remembrance of the gift of life.
I also rejoice in the glory of a great composition.

Happy tunes and peace,
CD
optimism rules
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 14:19:57 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: new shit
Message:
Chris,

You keep talking about music as a positive, uplifting force. Do you remember Maharaji giving the guitar player in One Foundation a hard time because he apprently was really enjoying himself? I think it was in Miami, maybe in '80. Maharaji was quite clearly reminding him -- and the rest of us -- that music for its own sake was just another vain pursuit, an illusion. If it wasn't playing a very humble, back-seat role to devotional singing to Maharaji it was wrong.

Do you remember that?

As for your 'optimism', Chris, sometimes you seem like an old woman who smears too much makeup on.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 19:19:28 (EST)
From: Jiva
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jive
Message:
And Jiva played in rome77 and the crowd got into it and
m hit the roof and that was the last of Jiva.
You are right Jim.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 20:24:13 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jiva
Subject: Jive (to CD)
Message:
Thanks. for the Jiva story. I was there but must have forgotten.

So, Chris, what's happening here? Has the guru given up trying to really pilot his faithful home past the veils of maya, over the ocean of samskara, safe from charasse, (help me out here, Bobby!)? Or was he full of shit when he power-tripped on music lovers back then?
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 11:06:37 (EST)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Rennie Davis sucks
Message:
Ah yes, the WWA. We were going to show the world that we were not only going to save it spiritually but physically as well, via all our great works. We did it K.C. by visiting nursing homes.

Re: Rennie: I was in the SF ashram at the time and help set up the big program in Berkelely where Rennie was to speak and we were to unvail the new film 'Satguru has Come' (1972 and I'd love to see a copy now). We were incredibly deluded to think that thousands of people (in Berkeley, no less!) were going to respond to Rennie telling them that he'd crawl accross the country on his hands and knees to kiss the feet of the Perfect Master. Our devotion to the truth was really tested.

A Denver PR bigwig and I went to the home of Country Joe MacDonald (in Berkeley) figuring that he too would want to get on board with his support. He told us to get lost.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 13:12:17 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Rennie Davis sucks
Message:
I think Rennie actually split from Maharaji in the 1976 renaissance of 'thinking.' In that brief let-up from the BM's paranoid devotion and surrender mantra. I don't think he ever made a public statement about it, but I don't recall him having any involvement in DLM after that. I think this was about the time he started to sell real estate in the Denver area.

I think Rennie is responding much the way Charles Cameron does. They are both embarrassed by their involvement. Also they are embarrassed about all the stupid stuff they said about who and what BM was, and both have been recording, on video and in writing, saying that stuff. If I was either of them, I doubt I would be saying anything much publicly. Plus, BM is off the radar screen for the press, so even if Rennie was into explaining his change of mind, I doubt the press would be interested. I'm not surprised he tries to minimize or laugh about his involvement as much as possible, especially if he has a book out that he expects anyone to buy and read. If you watch that Lord of the Universe Video, Rennie says some awfully embarrassing stuff. He comes across looking like just as much of an idiot as many of the rest of us did, but because he was, as you say, a ringleader and famous, the press paid attention to what he had to say and recorded it, to his current chagrin, I would imagine.

The Chicago Seven were my heros when I was in high school. Rennie's involvement with BM probably was the thing that made me open to even listening to premies in the first place. Rennie certainly does, in my view, have some moral obligation to express his opinion on this. But I can see why he doesn't. Or, maybe Rennie is like a lot of other ex-premies who prefer not to think about it, who just try to forget the whole thing.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 13:33:58 (EST)
From: JW -- Rennie Davis
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Embarrassing Stuff
Message:
Examples of 'embarrassing stuff' Rennie said in the Lord of the Universe Video.

1. That the astrodome in Houston was built for the sole purpose of hosting the Millennium program;

2. That the 'celestial suite' at the nearby hotel was also built with BM in mind, since it had a 'master bedroom', a chess set (and BM LOVED to play chess) and bathroom fixtures in the shape of swans. All proof of the grace of the perfect master.

3. He says that the 60s counter-culture movement, the anti-war movement, and the like, all happened as part of the workings of 'grace' to prepare the way for the perfect master arriving in the west, which is the most significant event in the history of the world. In other words, they had no real meaning on their own, only in light of how they prepared the world for the arrival of BM. [I can see how Abbie was a little incredulous about this.]

4. He says that that awful 'Blue Aquarius' band was being conducted by 'the Lord of Music.'

5. He says, with absolute confidence, that 'very soon' everyone will know about 'Goomradji' and be able to watch him bring peace to the entire world.

These are just some of the things I remember. Now, Rennie wasn't saying anything that a lot of other premies weren't also saying, but Rennie, being Rennie, had a lot more impact on a lot more people. I wonder what Rennie would say about those statements now, or if he feels any responsibility for that fact that his delusions might have helped ensnare more people into BM's deceitful webb.
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Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 at 17:36:23 (EST)
From: Toffee
Email: None
To: Maharaji
Subject: This is for you
Message:
I read your wife's letter...I thank those who made it possible for me to do so.

It's amazing how in little over a year, so much that was to remain private, has now become public knowledge.

I take great pleasure in knowing that you are uncomfortable with the presence of this forum on the internet...it must be difficult, what with ex-members constantly betraying you because they discover that you are a fraud.

And this is only the beginning...

Imagine.
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Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 at 15:00:23 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Forum I archives
Message:
A couple of months back I started cleaning up the archives from Forum I. They are now online as ZIP files (5 HTML files each).

If I never edit another Paradise/Purgatory post again my life will be bliss. Did I mention that I hate Paradise? Lately, I mean?

I vaguely remember that there used to be a site attached to this forum. Hope I still have the URL...
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Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 at 08:56:20 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Happy Mother's Day!
Message:
Off topic-Hope that all of the Moms on the forum have a great day today! You deserve it. I'm going to go honor my mother, so I'll talk to you all later. VP
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Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 at 13:20:10 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Me too...to all who nurture
Message:
The mother energy of nurturing, unconditional love may be found in and expressed by each of us, and is regularly expressed here. Thankyou to all who comfort and nurture. To all brothers of love and sisters of mercy. With loving thoughts to all who enter into this forum. Carol
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 15:57:52 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: all
Subject: To the women on the forum
Message:
I know I've said this before, but I wanted to give a heartfelt thanks to all the women who participate in the forum. (And very best wishes to all you lurkers as well!) For a long time I was the only ex-premie woman who consistently participated in the forum and I am very happy to have other female company. I like and respect almost all the men I've met on the forum, but it's great not being the representative for the female half of the world anymore!

Thanks to all,
from Katie
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