Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 7

From: May 8, 1998

To: May 19, 1998

Page: 5 Of: 5



Anon -:- To Maharaji (and Jack) -:- Sat, May 09, 1998 at 19:53:22 (EST)
__Keith -:- To Maharaji (and Jack) -:- Sat, May 09, 1998 at 21:53:36 (EST)
____Joy -:- To Maharaji (and Jack) -:- Sun, May 10, 1998 at 00:22:21 (EST)
______JW -:- To Maharaji (and Jack) -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 20:58:33 (EST)
__Keith -:- M and K. -:- Sun, May 10, 1998 at 02:40:54 (EST)
____Keith -:- M and K. -:- Sun, May 10, 1998 at 03:11:34 (EST)
______Anon -:- M and K. -:- Sun, May 10, 1998 at 08:19:19 (EST)
________Keith -:- M and K. -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 03:20:16 (EST)
______Jean-Michel -:- M and K. -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 03:40:03 (EST)
________Keith -:- M and K. -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 05:59:21 (EST)
__________Jude -:- M and K. -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 06:40:41 (EST)
____________Jean-Michel -:- About The Guru Papers -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 10:06:14 (EST)
________VP -:- M and K. -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 10:50:40 (EST)
__Katie -:- To Maharaji (and Jack) -:- Sun, May 10, 1998 at 10:48:29 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Thanks, Anon. -:- Sun, May 10, 1998 at 11:28:48 (EST)
__Sir David -:- Cleaning up after Maharaji -:- Sun, May 10, 1998 at 11:51:38 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Cleaning up after Maharaji -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 10:11:48 (EST)
__Selena -:- To Maharaji (and Jack) -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 12:25:24 (EST)
____Anon -:- To Maharaji (and Jack) -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 19:48:18 (EST)
____Jude -:- To Maharaji (and Jack) -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 06:04:11 (EST)
______Selena -:- To Maharaji (and Jack) -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 13:30:04 (EST)
________Jude -:- To Maharaji (and Jack) -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 15:33:31 (EST)
__JW -:- Sticking Up for Premies -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 13:47:40 (EST)
____Anon -:- Sticking Up for Premies -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 19:33:48 (EST)
______Selena -:- Sticking Up for Premies -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 23:12:02 (EST)
________Carol -:- Sticking Up for.. our kids -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 00:24:20 (EST)
____VP -:- Sticking Up for Premies -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 10:42:11 (EST)
______JW -:- Sticking Up for Premies -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 13:04:01 (EST)
__Jack -:- To Maharaji (and Jack) -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 21:20:20 (EST)
____box -:- To(and Jack) -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 23:22:10 (EST)
______Carol -:- To(and Jack) -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 00:31:29 (EST)
________bag -:- To(and Jack) -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 01:35:45 (EST)
__________carol -:- Joan -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 13:48:21 (EST)
________Jack -:- To(and Jack) -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 15:39:45 (EST)
____Selena -:- To Maharaji (and Jack) -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 23:40:52 (EST)
______VP -:- SERIOUS AS HELL -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 10:55:56 (EST)
________Now that I have -:- offended you... -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 11:39:50 (EST)
__________Selena -:- offended you... -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 12:19:25 (EST)
____________VP -:- Dearest Selena, -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:49:01 (EST)
__________John -:- Beyond hope -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 12:24:43 (EST)
________Jack -:- SERIOUS AS HELL -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 16:14:20 (EST)
__________JW -:- SERIOUS AS HELL -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 18:22:29 (EST)
____________Selena -:- IT *WAS* HELL -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 18:55:33 (EST)
____________VP -:- SERIOUS AS HELL -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:18:16 (EST)
____________Jack -:- SERIOUS AS HELL -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:24:21 (EST)
______________VP -:- There you are, Jack -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:36:01 (EST)
________________Jack -:- There you are, Jack -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:53:54 (EST)
______________JW -:- SERIOUS AS HELL -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:56:05 (EST)
________________VP -:- My parents weren't premies -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 22:11:48 (EST)
________________JW -:- SERIOUS AS HELL -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 11:51:45 (EST)
__________________Jack -:- SERIOUS AS HELL -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 11:57:19 (EST)
____________________JW -:- Sorry Jack and Brian -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 13:09:33 (EST)
__________________JW -:- SERIOUS AS HELL -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 13:01:16 (EST)
______Jack -:- To Maharaji (and Jack) -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 15:58:08 (EST)
________Selena -:- woof!! -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:15:24 (EST)
__________Jack -:- woof!! -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:47:32 (EST)
____________Scatman -:- woof!! -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 22:01:00 (EST)
________Katie -:- To Maharaji (and Jack) -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:47:27 (EST)
________Jim -:- hypocrisy (to Jack) -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 22:21:04 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Jack -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 10:25:49 (EST)
______Jack -:- Jack -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 16:33:53 (EST)
________Jude -:- Children -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 17:17:24 (EST)
__________Scatman -:- Children-My two scents -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:21:11 (EST)
____________Jack -:- Children-My two scents -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:32:44 (EST)
______________VP -:- Children-My two scents -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:40:16 (EST)
______________Scatman -:- The smell of money -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:42:22 (EST)
______________Jim -:- Red herring (to Jack) -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 22:31:08 (EST)
________________VP -:- Red herring (to Jack) -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 22:43:43 (EST)
__________________Jim -:- Red herring (to Jack) -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 22:53:56 (EST)
____________________VP -:- Red herring (to Jim) -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 23:20:48 (EST)
__________________Selena -:- Red herring (to Jack) -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 00:03:35 (EST)
____________________the whiny little puppy -:- Red herring to Jim -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 00:07:22 (EST)
____________________JW -:- Red herring (to Jack) -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 00:15:32 (EST)
______________________Katie -:- to Selena -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 00:22:18 (EST)
____________________Jim -:- Hey Selena -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 10:31:17 (EST)
________________Jack -:- Red herring (to Jack) -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 12:13:16 (EST)
__________________Gerry -:- Positives to my GM experience -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 13:19:28 (EST)
____________________Jim -:- Positives to my GM experience -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 13:34:00 (EST)

Selena -:- The Goo Hits the Road -:- Sat, May 09, 1998 at 17:04:19 (EST)
__Selena -:- The Goo Hits the Road - ps -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 12:32:02 (EST)
____Katie -:- The Goo Hits the Road - ps -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 15:06:10 (EST)
______Selena -:- The Goo Hits the Road - ps -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 16:29:25 (EST)

gumby -:- Get the tissues out ... -:- Sat, May 09, 1998 at 02:46:32 (EST)
__kleenex -:- Get the tissues out ... -:- Sat, May 09, 1998 at 03:33:44 (EST)
____VP -:- Of corn oil... -:- Sat, May 09, 1998 at 22:53:55 (EST)
____gumby -:- Get the tissues out ... -:- Sun, May 10, 1998 at 00:37:49 (EST)
______peter -:- Get the tissues out ... -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 11:45:32 (EST)
________rivo alto -:- Peter...and Miami -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 22:49:09 (EST)
__________peter -:- Peter...and Miami -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 05:51:03 (EST)
________gumby -:- Get the tissues out ... -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 00:00:55 (EST)
__________peter -:- Get the tissues out ... -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 08:40:09 (EST)
__Sir David -:- Get the tissues out ... -:- Sat, May 09, 1998 at 03:45:11 (EST)

gumby -:- Off the radar screen... -:- Sat, May 09, 1998 at 02:36:43 (EST)
__Keith -:- Off the radar screen... -:- Sat, May 09, 1998 at 04:38:02 (EST)
____gumby -:- Off the radar screen... -:- Sun, May 10, 1998 at 00:03:26 (EST)
__Sir David -:- Off the radar screen... -:- Sat, May 09, 1998 at 06:24:20 (EST)
____gumby -:- Off the radar screen... -:- Sun, May 10, 1998 at 00:01:47 (EST)
__Paul -:- Off the radar screen... -:- Sat, May 09, 1998 at 07:25:28 (EST)
____gumby -:- Off the radar screen... -:- Sun, May 10, 1998 at 00:23:32 (EST)
______Paul -:- Off the radar screen... -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 10:51:16 (EST)
________gumby -:- Off the radar screen... -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 01:44:26 (EST)
__________Jude -:- Off the radar screen... -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 06:29:29 (EST)
____________gumby -:- Off the radar screen... -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 02:39:38 (EST)
______________Jude -:- Off the radar screen... -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 05:23:10 (EST)
__________Paul -:- Off the radar screen... -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 13:47:40 (EST)
____________gumby -:- Off the radar screen... -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 03:13:34 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Sin -:- Sat, May 09, 1998 at 08:52:48 (EST)
____Sir David -:- Sin -:- Sat, May 09, 1998 at 10:52:32 (EST)
____gumby -:- Sin -:- Sun, May 10, 1998 at 00:30:29 (EST)
__Jim -:- Off the radar screen... -:- Sun, May 10, 1998 at 19:27:51 (EST)
____gumby -:- Off the radar screen... -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 00:16:18 (EST)
______Jim -:- Off the radar screen... -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 02:20:54 (EST)
________gumby -:- Off the radar screen... -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 01:44:28 (EST)

Jude -:- Home -:- Fri, May 08, 1998 at 20:34:58 (EST)
__Gerry -:- Home -:- Fri, May 08, 1998 at 21:02:29 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Home -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 09:29:57 (EST)
______Gerry -:- Home -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 12:49:08 (EST)
________Robyn -:- You are fine! -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 13:51:55 (EST)
__________Gerry -:- You are fine! -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 13:56:30 (EST)
____________Carol -:- You are fine! -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 13:58:32 (EST)
______________Gerry -:- You are fine! -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 14:10:35 (EST)
________Jude -:- Home -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 15:53:06 (EST)
__________Gerry -:- Home -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 17:25:32 (EST)
____________Jude -:- Home -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 17:28:47 (EST)
________Katie -:- Home -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:29:57 (EST)
__JW -:- Home -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 17:29:56 (EST)
____Jude -:- Home -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 06:35:20 (EST)

david f. -:- M's message and wealth -:- Fri, May 08, 1998 at 13:00:09 (EST)
__John -:- Satsang -:- Fri, May 08, 1998 at 13:18:55 (EST)
____VP -:- Satsang -:- Sat, May 09, 1998 at 00:53:39 (EST)

Keith -:- A question -:- Fri, May 08, 1998 at 12:40:36 (EST)
__david f. -:- A question -:- Fri, May 08, 1998 at 13:10:55 (EST)
__JW -:- A question -:- Fri, May 08, 1998 at 13:44:52 (EST)
____mona lisa -:- A question -:- Fri, May 08, 1998 at 13:56:17 (EST)
____Selena -:- A question en espanol -:- Fri, May 08, 1998 at 13:56:59 (EST)
______Katie -:- A question en espanol -:- Fri, May 08, 1998 at 14:18:52 (EST)
____eb -:- A question -:- Fri, May 08, 1998 at 18:24:57 (EST)
______Keith -:- A question -:- Fri, May 08, 1998 at 20:29:42 (EST)
______JW -:- A question -:- Sat, May 09, 1998 at 00:20:09 (EST)
________eb -:- Mad at BM -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 12:19:58 (EST)
__VP -:- A question -:- Sat, May 09, 1998 at 00:48:45 (EST)
____Keith -:- response to vp. -:- Sat, May 09, 1998 at 04:15:40 (EST)
______Anon -:- hi Vacol -:- Sat, May 09, 1998 at 05:52:35 (EST)
______Brian -:- response to Keith -:- Sat, May 09, 1998 at 11:03:30 (EST)
________kEITH -:- response to Keith -:- Sat, May 09, 1998 at 16:15:27 (EST)
__________Katie -:- response to Keith -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 15:18:30 (EST)
__________Brian -:- response to Keith -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 23:18:57 (EST)
______VP -:- response to Keith/Anon. -:- Sun, May 10, 1998 at 08:53:47 (EST)
________Katie -:- off-topic posts -:- Sun, May 10, 1998 at 10:54:29 (EST)
______VP -:- Q&A session -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 01:04:56 (EST)
________Keith -:- Q&A session -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 02:45:57 (EST)
__________VP -:- Q&A session -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 10:54:47 (EST)
____________Mr Ex -:- Q&A session: sssssshhhhhhh -:- Mon, May 11, 1998 at 12:56:48 (EST)
______________VP -:- Q&A session: sssssshhhhhhh -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 08:47:44 (EST)
__Robyn -:- A question -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 12:00:32 (EST)
____Carol -:- A question -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 14:06:48 (EST)
______Jude -:- A question -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 15:57:17 (EST)
________Robyn -:- A question -:- Tues, May 12, 1998 at 17:52:40 (EST)
__________Katie -:- A question -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 00:13:02 (EST)
__Jethro -:- A question -:- Wed, May 13, 1998 at 05:08:23 (EST)


Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 19:53:22 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Maharaji and Jack
Subject: To Maharaji (and Jack)
Message:
(I spent so long writing this, I'm starting a new thread so somebody might actually read it..sorry..I got a bit emotionally charged over this one.)

Jack wrote:
Before you go too far with your Marolyn-bashing-to-show-how-stupid-premies-are conjecture, consider this. She has come closer to facing death than probably anyone who reads from this forum. Can you appreciate the life altering epiphany one has from such an experience? Can you appreciate how it must clear away the bullshit, making your priorities simple and closer to your heart?

Yes of course, but that doesn't necessarily certify that what she clings to for comfort in her hour of need is not an illusion. I'm sorry, but I have a book of hundreds of peoples' last words, and from it I am impressed that most dying people of conviction, just cling even more tightly to whatever has been their particular faith in life. Naturally for a premie that will be M and knowledge just as for a Christian they will put their hope in Christ. I am not so sure that death teaches us so much about life, especially if we fear it.

But the funny thing is, even after having such an experience, Marolyn is clearly grateful to her master for the gift of Knowledge. You'd think such a dose of reality would have 'lifted the veil of illusion and liberated the lost soul from the bondage of servitude'. However it seems to have done exactly the opposite. And I've heard of others who express the same gratitude, or, regret that they didn't pay more attention to the gift. If there's anything positive about posting her note, perhaps it's this revelation.

When my father was dying I was living in the ashram and got a call to go and see him. I sat with him for 17 hours holding his hand until he died. He was clearly in a state of terror which was hard to bear. When I left I was deeply shocked and highly aware of the superficiality around me. When I returned to my service I felt that I, and most premies, had been living in a pretty shallow world despite our intense efforts to follow M and practise Knowledge. My point is that, being so shaken up, I initially turned even more to knowledge, but that experience of my father's death definitely accelerated my subsequent questioning of my values and re-examination of the integrity of my whole involvement with M, and of course, my questioning of the veracity and actual divine authority of Maharaji.

So really, that experience of confrontation with death surely led me later to not take this experience of being a premie so lightly and to do a major reality check. That is why I have had to be honest with myself and admit that I do not really, in my heart, know that Maharaji is the 'man behind the Knowledge' (the Lord etc. whose grace is bringing me the experience of knowledge) and that I should not so trustingly give up my identity (ego) to him (especially as then I actually seemed to be becoming more and more miserable surrendering to him and following his agya in the ashram).

I have to admit that I find it very hard to trust in Maharaji and Knowledge when premies often appear to me to be very poor examples of loving human beings, often pretty self-centred and unreal, and I include myself in that judgment. They may well go to 'Maharaji heaven' when they die, but what about now? They are not in heaven now..that is usually clear. My perception is that I was kidding myself and so were my fellow premies. Even Maharaji's most devoted premies like Gurucharanand, were being totally hypocritical when I knew them. (He was carrying on with girls, whilst preaching to us celibate monks, about how we should be not doing exactly what he was doing in secret! Can you believe that?!).
Apparently their are still plenty of skeletons in the cupboard too. I have seen many now with my own eyes and I do not intend to pretend that they don’t exist.

If you surrender yourself totally to Maharaji, and it's having a healthy effect on you, then your 'light should shine forth in your actions' even just a little in your life!
My experience of premiedom is that whilst everyone might be facing Maharaji in rapture, the reality of their lives is often as tacky and sad as the next man. What then is the practical value of devotion, to dream that everything is taken care of as long as you look towards M? that you you don't need to make an effort to love those around you, just your precious Master? that you owe nothing to this world, only to Guru Maharaji? Well, I find that extremely hard to understand (and that's not for want of trying) and whatsmore I find the whole 'Devotional Agenda' very suspicious in the light of what I have seen and learned. That is why I am so keen to study the roots of this 'philosophy' or 'practise' to see and understand just how this whole got dreamed up in the first place. That is why I consider the sayings of Shri Hans so interesting as they undoubtedly were formative ideas for the young M.

What Marolyn expresses in her letter is very similar (in implicating total devotion and surrender to Maharaji alone to be the goal of human life) to what she used to say, with such emotional charge, in satsang. This level of emotional dependence is demands an enormous trust, or some might say, great denial. Trust has to be inspired. I have found many reasons to be wary of trusting Maharaji so totally. Mainly it is the fact that there are hidden agendas, most obviously that total surrender is the goal, and some nasty surprises may be in store: ie. your life may fall apart (and probably will) but that is good for you as a devotee! Your miserable but dedicated and ego less life is building up to that great day when you die, a mere nothing returning to nothingness.

It's all right for Marolyn I dare say, living a very privileged and materialistic life. What about the likes of me circa 1974..a seventeen year old well-educated, sincere hot-blooded, British Scorpio male, busting to enjoy life to the full. Incarcerated, before I had a chance to enjoy being young, into a mind-numbingly boring life in the ashram simply because I bought the rap and felt I must follow the 'Truth' to the utmost. Maharaji's satsang, and Marolyn's too for that matter, endlessly reminded us of the absolute importance of our dedication and warned us of the dreadful power of the Evil mind which would have us reclaim our lives as our own and do anything to stop us pursuing the unreasonable path of surrender to the Lord. (The Lord sure knew how to make it hard for us all didn’t he!)

I became truly miserable as I sank into obscurity and the ever-present ghastly company of righteous , stiff, unkind, inhumane, but ever-so-devoted premies. Little wonder that by the time M closed the ashrams (I was 24) that I felt I had lost my youth. What did I gain? A lot of dependence on Maharaji. Emotionally mainly. I feel so much better having stopped being dependent on him like that.

Practising knowledge is inseparable, in my opinion, from being a process which leads to emotional dependence on the master. The encouragement to attend regularly makes sure you are physically where you will be influenced, the meditation makes you connect a ‘nice personal inner experience’ with him..service further binds you to the whole thing..the emotional songs get you all emotionally charged and you attribute that to M.. it's so easy to see how one can get sucked into believing in it so wholeheartedly. All the ingredients are there without the need for any ‘Grace’ or whatever mystical 'divine' thing is assumed is facilitating the whole thing.

Now that my life is not actually tied up with Maharaji in any way it's a lot easier to be circumspect about it. It's a lot easier to be simply happy. I've said it before that Maharaji reminds me a bit of the Pied Piper, leading all the children off, away from the love of their homes, into a promised paradise, which turns out to be a dark cave-prison. For me, following his siren call actually led to a life of barren misery. The reality of what devotion is really about, as exemplified by Marolyn, actually fills me with a cold terror. I started to get physically ill going to ‘events’ for no apparent reason. I now know that I was repulsed at the reminder that Maharaji and knowledge lay at the end of existence. I decided I’d rather live a nice happy life away from him and account to him when the time comes! I was that unhappy feeling accountable to him all the time.

When you die you die, knowbody knows what’s gonna happen. Just don’t tell me that it’s fun surrendering your life to a master. It’s not. My experience was that it was horrid, often frightening and unfulfilling. ..and the people that do it are frighteningly, cold people whose emotionally charged rhetoric can impress you at first but belies a lonely and blinkered soul.

For all those premies who just take Maharaji as a sort of occasional 'pill' to give them some sort of comfort, let them remember that further down the road which they walk so happy-go-luckily, is the inevitable moment when they will have to face the real agenda and surrender themselves completely. If that agenda has changed now, then I'm sorry, but the whole thing really is a very, very bad joke.

Which brings me to my question to Maharaji.

What was all that ashram thing about? Why did you lead me to such a miserable time when you promised happiness? The premie answers are hollow and meaningless, most of them don’t have a clue how much I and others gave of ourselves, sacrificially, to you. Only you can answer this for me, because it was to YOU that I devoted my life, and I really don’t think you can be genuine if you allow your devotees to fall into such misery without helping them.
If you don’t know how to help the likes of me then you are a fake, whether you know it or not, and we all need your advice like a hole in the head.
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 21:53:36 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: To Maharaji (and Jack)
Message:
Anon, you asked Maharaji,
' Which brings me to my question to Maharaji.

What was all that ashram thing about? Why did you lead me to such a miserable time when you promised happiness? The premie answers are hollow and meaningless, most of them don’t have a clue how much I and others gave of ourselves, sacrificially, to you. Only you can answer this for me, because it was to YOU that I devoted my life, and I really don’t think you can be genuine if you allow your devotees to fall into such misery without helping them.'

Anon, do I have your permission to use your question in my own search for some answers?
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Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 at 00:22:21 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: Anon
Subject: To Maharaji (and Jack)
Message:
Anon, that was totally, totally awesome. You have illuminated for us, from the depths of your soul, what it felt like to have lived all those years in the ashram (I lost my entire 20s to it) and been a 'devotee'. I still don't think I have recovered fully, and when I read something like this it reminds me how deep and all-encompassing that wound actually is, even though I have plastered it over and carried on without thinking all that much about it, until this site came along, of course. THANK YOU for such a heartfelt and articulate post. My only wish is that BM will actually see it (though we cannot hope he would condescend to respond, of course).
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 20:58:33 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: To Maharaji (and Jack)
Message:
...that was totally, totally awesome...

Hey, girl. Moved to the valley have we? Just kidding....
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Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 at 02:40:54 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: M and K.
Message:
Anon, you said,

'So really, that experience of confrontation with death surely led me later to not take this experience of being a premie so lightly and to do a major reality check. That is why I have had to be honest with myself and admit that I do not really, in my heart, know that Maharaji is the 'man behind the Knowledge' (the Lord etc. whose grace is bringing me the experience of knowledge) and that I should not so trustingly give up my identity (ego) to him (especially as then I actually seemed to be becoming more and more miserable surrendering to him and following his agya in the ashram).'

Perhaps it was different back then .....or maybe it's a difference in interpretation.....but I have never thought of 'Maharaji as being the man behind the Knowledge'.
Or that it was 'Maharaji's grace bringing me the experience of knowledge'.
Yes, there have been times when it felt as if Maharaji's presence was a factor or even the major factor (and I mean both in close physical proximity to him and no proximity at all) influencing my experience.....and I have no problem referring to this experience as M's grace.....but I have had such experiences connected to other people too ; and that type of expierence I do not confuse with M's grace 'bringing me the experience of knowledge',....Knowledge is within the domain of my own inner realm and it is I who must open to it 'by turning my total focus inwards'.
that's all for now, regards Keith.
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Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 at 03:11:34 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: M and K.
Message:
I should explain what I mean by ....I don't experience Maharaji as being the man behind the Knowledge .
Maharaji is responsible for me recieving the techniques of knowledge...yes ...but once I had recieved the techniques it was essentially up to me.
And I knew about Sant Mat and that knowledge was not only shown by Maharaji.
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Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 at 08:19:19 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: M and K.
Message:
Keith, you wrote:

'Perhaps it was different back then .....or maybe it's a difference in interpretation.....but I have never thought of 'Maharaji as being the man behind the Knowledge'. Or that it was 'Maharaji's grace bringing me the experience of knowledge'.
Yes, there have been times when it felt as if Maharaji's presence was a factor or even the major factor (and I mean both in close physical proximity to him and no proximity at all) influencing my experience.....and I have no problem referring to this experience as M's grace.....but I have had such experiences connected to other people too ; and that type of expierence I do not confuse with M's grace 'bringing me the experience of knowledge',....Knowledge is within the domain of my own inner realm and it is I who must open to it 'by turning my total focus inwards'.
I should explain what I mean by ....I don't experience Maharaji as being the man behind the Knowledge . Maharaji is responsible for me recieving the techniques of knowledge...yes ...but once I had recieved the techniques it was essentially up to me.
And I knew about Sant Mat and that knowledge was not only shown by Maharaji.


If you closely listen to what M has and still does say, you cannot surely have such a different interpretation than I, as to what he really means by Grace. If you do, then may I humbly suggest that you are relatively alone amongst premies in your translation of what he is saying.

Grace is definitely emphasised by M to be more than mere human kindness. Grace is generally purported to be the 'kindly force' by which the Superior Power bestows the experience of Knowledge to a person and even then, only through the agency of his living representative, a single living Master. The emphasis is definately that ones inner experience in meditation (and indeed otherwise in your life regarding knowledge) happens distinctly by virtue of this particular power, which is nominally linked with Maharaji's physical form. Maharaji himself often uses (used) his own titular name as a pseudonym for the incorporeal higher power.

Maharaji used to say 'take one step towards Maharaji and He will take 3 towards you' and so on. He often spoke about the role of our effort and how, although it was an essential part of the process (for us to always make 'extra effort' to practise Knowledge), it was nevertheless impossible by our efforts alone to reach that experience. This rung true to me and other aspirants who clearly saw the limitations and relative impotence of our own will-powers in comparison to that of the (presumably conscious) Superior Power (that can conceive the cosmos, in all its glory). It was not a large step to imagine that we needed distinctly divine help to expand our mundane spheres of consciousness... in stepped Maharaji offering exactly just that kind of authoritative help.

Maharaji has really set himself up to be the major (if not sole) representative of this 'power behind creation' and as such, claims the authority to wield this power to judge who is worthy of, and to distribute, a special gift on behalf of that Ultimate Power. Of course the power to bestow knowledge is also temporarily extended to the instructors who are merely his chosen channels for his Grace. Other people who show the techniques without M's permission are bogus and their instructions will not be effective, so we are led to believe. Indeed the continued development of a relationship of trust with the master is said to be essential to deriving real benefit from the knowledge itself.
Yes, it is 'essentially up to you' and your effort, but it is also taught that Maharaji's Grace is equally essential and it is hoped that you will accept this and be duly grateful!
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 03:20:16 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: M and K.
Message:
Anon,
Perhaps I am a rarity among premies ( although once again I don't really feel identified with that 'tag') in understanding M in the way I do. I really don't know about that.
I do realise that I have never experienced a deep empathy with the typical devotional type whether in regards to premies or spiritual seekers in general.
Certainly I have a romantic and 'feminine' side to my spirituality.....and I can say quite openly that I am a devotee of Truth.....and certainly a devotee of what I sometimes refer to as the process of spiritual evolution.
Once having recieved the techniques of Knowledge I would understand M's grace mostly to be his continued and consistent support and encouragement ....mainly through the medium of his 'talks'.
I personally don't adhere to the idea of the one living perfect master.
But I think that masters realise how destructive it can be for the bee to try and extract nectar from too many flowers at the same time!
At the same time I think that there are very real problems with the bee getting too attached to one flower at the expence of all others.
Again personally I do find M's words inspiring and wise.
When his words get too specifically repititious , I take a break for a few months.
I am generally speaking not addicted to M's videos (these days).
A Guru once said to me that a guru must wean the spiritual babies off their toys and crutches slowly and sensitively.
He said one should not just pull the dummy out of the babies mouth and throw it into the fire.
Anyway I am no expert in these matters.....but the endless learning and growing is so amazing!
Also Anon, it was nice to have your empathy about sitting atop the fence. I did appreciate that ....indeed it can feel quite lonley on the fence sometimes.
Bye for now,
Keith
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 03:40:03 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: M and K.
Message:
Did you read 'The Guru Papers' ?

That's one of the BEST book ANY premie (and ex) should read.

It's about 15 US$, can get it from Amazon in a matter of days,
home delivery, excellent investment

These people have worked on every issue you can imagine related to maharaji, it's their opinion of course, but an excellent professionnal study.

It is the clearest book I've ever read over gurus, cults, authority, and the main issues of this time on this planet.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 05:59:21 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: M and K.
Message:
No, Jean-Michel I haven't read the Guru Papers yet but as a number of ex's besides yourself have suggested I read it I shall try first of all to order it through my local library network.
The entire subject of gurus , masters and the like is I feel very complex and fascinating. I could easily spend many years researching this.....at least that's how I feel now!
Regards, Keith.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 06:40:41 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: M and K.
Message:
Go, Keith! I feel the same way. I definitely will read this publication (next time I am unemployed?)

best wishes
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 10:06:14 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: About The Guru Papers
Message:
It's so fascinating, that you won't wait until you're unemployed to read it.
Start with the chapter about gurus, and you'll get all the answers you've been waiting for !
You wonder what the authors new about Rawat: the whole mechanism is so clearly explained ...
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 10:50:40 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: M and K.
Message:
Aspirants should definately read this book, too.
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Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 at 10:48:29 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Anon
Subject: To Maharaji (and Jack)
Message:
Dear Anon -
I wanted to say that I found your post to be very moving and REAL, and extremely well-expressed (as usualy). I never really dedicated my life to Maharaji as you did (I never lived in the ashram, luckily enough), but your post illuminates that experience. I did experience some of what you spoke about.

I particularly remember my decision to leave Maharaji and stop practicing knowledge. I felt that I was trapped in a 'dark cave-prison', as you said, but I was afraid to leave because I was afraid that I was going to hell, or going to go crazy, as Maharaji had said we would if we left. I remember getting to the point where I just had to get out, whether I was going to go to hell or not. Of course, I didn't go to hell, and I didn't go crazy from the knowledge 'rotting' inside me, but making that decision was very hard.

Thanks, Anon.
regards from Katie
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Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 at 11:28:48 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Thanks, Anon.
Message:
Anon:

Thanks for expressing the emotional and spiritual dilemma of ashramites. It is something I've never quite grasped. The ashram premies just seemed like very reliable anchors in the community, at least in Providence, RI and Portland, OR. I was never a very good premie, and lost my conviction to meet a formulaic devotional test as a means of spiritual fulfillment during the 60s. It's a long story. By the 70s I just no longer had it in me. At any rate, getting involved with MJ was a step down in intensity, so I experienced it as a kind of release. It was part of an overall drift back to society. When we met we would have been moving past one another in roughly opposite courses.

Re: I find the whole 'Devotional Agenda' very suspicious in the light of what I have seen and learned. That is why I am so keen to study the roots of this 'philosophy' or 'practise' to see and understand just how this whole got dreamed up in the first place. That is why I consider the sayings of Shri Hans so interesting as they undoubtedly were formative ideas for the young M.

I'm sorry I have not pulled that Anandpur reference together yet. I can make no promises because of the transitional state of my career, but will do what I can to get it resolved.

Here is an almost completely irrelevant piece of trivia that I, nonetheless, found interesting. The Sant Mat tradition apparently evolved in a part of northern India near the Beas River. This is also the place where the forward advance of Alexander the Great ended, and at the request (or demand?) of his men the army started its long journey home. (Only a quarter of the army made it back.) It's an interesting dramatic connection.

-Scott
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Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 at 11:51:38 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Anon
Subject: Cleaning up after Maharaji
Message:
Thanks for that most sincere and inciteful post, Anon. I may have met you sometime back in the seventies. I was in Rugby ashram, Birmingham, Stoke, Wolverhampton and Coventry ashrams and also spent some time in Inverness ashram for the burnt out premies. I believe you were in Leicester so I would have seen you at Midland programs.

The last ashram I used to go to for satsang was in Herne Hill, near Dulwich in London. At the time I was trying to get reinstated back into an ashram and was attending ashram applicants satsang etc. This was in the early eighties. So I used to go to Herne Hill shram nearly every night and try to forget how much I fancied the housemother and would give inspiring satsang about giving one's life to M and all the rest of it. The fact that I thought that entering the ashram again was an awful step to takeagain did not stop me from trying it again. I desperately wanted to be in M agya and perhaps become an initiator.

So this ashram in Herne Hill was like a saving grace for me I thought. So close to where I lived and my life of work during the day and satsang in the ashram in the evening seemed to be what M wanted me to do and though I felt somewhat closetted again, I thought this was just my mind, blah blah. I worshipped those ashram premies there, almost. They had hung on to the end of the seventies until the early eighties and I considered them true devotees. The fact that most of them were utterly confused did not deter me. Actually they were real nice people. I'd be happy to meet any of them again, especially the housemother.

Excuse my ramblings here. So I was all set to move back into the ashram and surrender for the final time and then - all the ashrams closed, including my beloved Herne Hill ashram. I was totally confused. I had got myself all prepared to give myself to the Lord once again and everything had just disappeared! There was suddenly no satsang, no service and no premies to even talk to. Because I lived on my own in preperation for that final detatchment from the world and because I had cut all personal relationships, for the same reason, I was utterly bereft. WHat would I do now?

Well, being a practical person, the first thing I did was to start my own house cleaning business. Prior to this I'd just done temporary jobs in order to be prepared for my move into the ashram. I got plenty of jobs to do cleaning the upper middle class houses in the rich Dulwich Village area and then one day I asked my co-worker what house he was cleaning this week. And he gave me the address and low and behold, it was the Herne Hill ashram house.

I wanted to do this one myself and I went along there and it was so strange, so surreal. A very nice upper middle class lady opened the door and set me to work and there was a lot of work to do! The place was very dirty. I spent a week scrubbing windows, ovens, floors and paintwork and couldn't help thinking about the absurdity of it all. I mean could I call this service? Cleaning out the ex-ashram from top to bottom. The new owner of the house told me that she'd bought the house from some religious group. Little did she know that I had spent many hours within those hallowed walls, trying to be a devotee of the Lord. I strange contrast and a nice bump back down to earth again. The more I cleaned that house then the more I washed away the dream that I'd been in. For undoubtedly the whole trip had folded. No more pranams to M's picture, no more sweaty socks in the satsang room, no more arti and holy water. Now I was back to reality. Cleaning up after Maharaji.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 10:11:48 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Cleaning up after Maharaji
Message:
Dear David and Anon,
Reading your posts gave me shimmy lizards. So many have been through to much and I am so happy that you've made it out and in tact and have happy lives now.
Robyn
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 12:25:24 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: To Maharaji (and Jack)
Message:
Thanks so much Anon. You have summarized many of the reasons I have tried to give for why I finally had to stop seeing myself as a premie, back in January. I just couldn't stop questioning the blind devotion. The emotional outpourings in song and tears that I witnessed at the events confused me at first, and gradually annoyed me. That plus the contradictory actions and personality traits of the premies around me; giving all this lip service to love and some profound spiritual experience, yet showing quite clearly that they were as unhappy as anyone else, more so because of the paradox that denial creates.
I have started using the term 'stopped thinking of myself as a premie' rather than saying I left M or whatever. This is because, in the 90's, the ashram experience isn't happening and the indoctrination is subtler. But it is there, make no mistake. It colors people's thoughts and shapes their lives. It affects how we raise our children, the choices we make, and what our priorities are. These things are harder to pinpoint but make no mistake, they are life-altering, just not as obvious or dramatic as the effects of a life in an ashram. I am not discounting any of the suffering ashram premies have experienced, but we do need to see what is happening to people in the west now.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 19:48:18 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: To Maharaji (and Jack)
Message:
Thanks Selena,
What you have said is very true. Although there are no ashrams etc, the agenda is fundamentally the same, and we do need to see what is happening. I find it fascinating to see how people (like your good-self) who are relatively new to the whole thing, are picking up on and questioning some of the hypocrisies that I saw as a teenager in 1974 but was too naive to resist. In retrospect I resent that after all my education and positive aspirations as a child, that as soon as I reached that vulnerable age of near-adulthood, I was effectively and swiftly re-educated into an inferior belief system (that basically stifled my previously relatively healthy mental condition and pummelled me into leading a very unproductive existence for many years) by a very persuasive Indian Movement figureheaded by the extraordinarily enigamatic personage of Guru Maharaji.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 06:04:11 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: To Maharaji (and Jack)
Message:
Selena the thing that worried me too that I couldn't continue to deny was the behaviour of other premies - even though I couldn't see myself, as I kept witnessing their behaviours I saw they weren't really well people. Some after many many years of following this path. Maybe that's all I saw but that's something.Then when I started reading this Forum it's like the penny dropped, but that's not a good analogy.

Elizabeth Kubler Ross used to say that the new age would have no leaders or followers, but be a circle of equals, with a common purpose.

I can't quote her exactly as it is a long time since I read it. I guess a 'triangle' is a different structure to a 'circle, though..

Then again, I read another article about her as she was dying (she was famous for treating dying people I guess you know). It was still really hard for her to be the one dying. I don't know what can help people in their life/death which is not a belief but a reality.

I'm wondering what will replace M, for me.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 13:30:04 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: To Maharaji (and Jack)
Message:
Dear Jude,
I understand your wondering what will replace M. I had similar concerns. There is a strong magical feeling that comes (and goes) when I can believe there is more to life than the senses reveal. I can't deal with that issue right now. The backlash of M and the WOK routine has created in me a strong dislike for the entire new age movement. My office mate is into some kind of chi gung (i don't know how to spell it) body energy work. She offered to do a session on me after I had surgery recently and I declined. I can't stand any of that stuff right now. But I do believe I will change over time and I do believe we all have a spiritual side. I miss mine but it's ok for now. What has replaced M for me at the moment is the fact that I have all this renewed interest in life and more energy. That's why I re-enrolled n school. It's not for the degree per se, it's to begin to LIVE again! To learn and respect the intellect. To be goal oriented. All the things M makes so much fun of. I wish you the best, don't worry, you will find your way. It's got to be better than those awful events no matter what.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 15:33:31 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: To Maharaji (and Jack)
Message:
Thanks Selena
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 13:47:40 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Sticking Up for Premies
Message:
Thank you also from me, Anon, I feel much the way you do.

I wanted to make one point about premies, however. Some of the people I met in DLM, were some of the finest people I have ever known. By and large, they were very sincere, loving people, who got involved with BM for very admirable reasons. A few got to be very good friends. Fortunately, everyone whom I considered a good friend, left the cult years ago. Most of these are ex-ashram premies. A few talk about that period in their lives, and a few more would rather not, preferring to just forget it ever happened. I think it's because it's still too painful to talk about. A couple of these people think I'm kind of strange for actually wanting to talk about it.

I also have noticed a certain pathology with premies especially having to do with a real inability to question or look objectively at the contradictions of what BM espouses. But I just wanted to emphasize that I don't believe that is due, in most cases, to their essential natures. It has more to do with living with such an oppressive belief system, and a real fear of ever questioning it. Sometimes I think that fear is so strong that they will lash out, and engage in some pretty weird behaviors to protect themselves from doubting. Most of the ex-premies I know, now admit they were pretty miserable as premies, and that resulted in some strange behaviors, while all the time saying they were having a wonderful experience. That was certainly true for me and I suspect current premies are no different, despite the fact that so much less is apparently expected of premies these days by BM.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 19:33:48 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Sticking Up for Premies
Message:
JW,
thanks for your thanks. You wrote:

I also have noticed a certain pathology with premies especially having to do with a real inability to question or look objectively at the contradictions of what BM espouses. But I just wanted to emphasize that I don't believe that is due, in most cases, to their essential natures. It has more to do with living with such an oppressive belief system, and a real fear of ever questioning it.

Yes, most of my old friends are/were premies and they are all very nice people indeed. I believe there is currently a BIG movement of doubt amongst premies. A lot of my old premie friends went through their 'doubting' period when they probably felt acutely in a minority (people didn't express doubt so much back then). So they kept quiet. Now, what with this internet thing etc. (helping to make it known that there are many people who feel the same and who are not afraid to talk) and the obvious fact that we have all had time to figure things out a bit (like..years!), doubting Thomas's are coming out of the woodwork all over the place!
You know, we aregetting older.. too old to carry on behaving like confused adolescents (which we basically were)...too old to be like scared rabbits quaking in front of an authority figure. Life is too short.... too old to be examples to the next generation, of selfish, obsessive, irresponsible grown-ups pretending to have some special secret knowledge, like arrogant kids who think their make-believe game is so exclusive and real.

I agree with you that the fear, that is implanted during practising Knowledge, is tremendously hard to identify and overcome. The more die-hard premies have apparently gone so far into that trap that they will literally leave no room for doubt in their minds and are thoroughly duped. The more that respectable, decent folk stand up and are prepared to say 'I do not feel that this is a good thing and I want to express my feelings about it to you' then these people are going to feel increasingly provoked to examine their consciences.

The danger about 'closed societies' like premiedom is that the voices of dissenters were, till now, stifled, and one never heard the reasonable arguments against the whole thing. All that is set to change as the obviously growing number of dissatisfied people feel that something should be done to help these basically decent folk who have just become ensnared in the trip.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 23:12:02 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Sticking Up for Premies
Message:
Anon, I quote:
>>'You know, we are getting older.. too old to carry on behaving like confused adolescents (which we basically were)...too old to be like scared rabbits quaking in front of an authority figure.
Life is too short.... too old to be examples to the next
generation, of selfish, obsessive, irresponsible grown-ups pretending to have some special secret knowledge, like arrogant
kids who think their make-believe game is so exclusive and real.'
==end quote ==============================================

Anon, on the wake of mother's day, and being the mom of adult children, I can't begin to tell you how much that meant to me. What you articulated is what caused me to doubt in the first place and finally facilitated my getting away. Our next generations are treasured resources in a world of scarce resources. The least we can do is be as honest as we can with them.
Thank you. You make me realized that I was very gifted to have children who were intelligent and very confronting at times.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 00:24:20 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Sticking Up for.. our kids
Message:
I agree. Part of my re-evaluation was motivated by my 20 year old son's search for a buddhist teacher. I felt a need to give him some warnings based on my experience like most parents. Carol
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 10:42:11 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Sticking Up for Premies
Message:
JW,
Premies were the most charismatic, kind, and especially the most FUN people that I had ever met in my life. I was more attracted to them than to the teenage boy whose photographed eyes followed me around the room. (eerie!) Premies were also very dishonest, angry, and irresponsible. I agree with you that it can be attributed to the demands placed upon them, their denial, etc. At heart they were/are great people. I saw some people I loved who were very free, spontaneous, and loving go through some personality changes that were/are disturbing throughout the years of their involvment.

I think its great that a lot of your friends left. VP
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 13:04:01 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Sticking Up for Premies
Message:
Premies were also very dishonest, angry, and irresponsible. I agree with you that it can be attributed to the demands placed upon them, their denial, etc. At heart they were/are great people. I saw some people I loved who were very free, spontaneous, and loving go through some personality changes that were/are disturbing throughout the years of their involvment.

VP,

I think there was a kind of 'amorality' that was prevalent among premies. Once I recall a premie (who is a good friend and currently an ex-premie) was the housemother in an ashram in Miami. She had found and rented a house to be the ashram which I think was on a 6-month lease and she had promised the landlord that they would stay at least that long. For some reason, the resident initiator, John Hampton, who could be a real tyrant, decided that the ashram should move. My friend didn't want to walk out on the lease. Hampton berated her and said that BM routinely broke commitments, etc., because HIS mission was more important that anything, including personal moral behavior. She was not devoted enough to understand that, according to him. As U have said before, I did some things as a DLM stalwart that I am now ashamed of. I laid trips on people, and disregarded my own values, because I convinced myself that BM was more important. An example was harassing people to donate money to some plane or something BM wanted when I knew they really couldn't afford it, and that their family, including their children, would likely suffer as a result.

I think there is, or at least was when I was a premie, this idea that knowledge, BM and BM's 'mission' superseded everything else. And because premies had knowledge, it freed them from any other responsbility for anyone else. It even freed them from the responsility to be honest and responsibile in other areas of their lives. BM really reinforced this, not only by his materialistic lifestyle, but also because of the way he derided the conventions of civil society as 'concepts' and just basically said that 'people of the world' were all just miserable and confused anyway.

And your right, I think most premies were basically very good people who were put under unusual pressures. And then also, there were premies who were just jerks. That was okay, but it seemed BM often put them in positions of power.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 21:20:20 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: To Maharaji (and Jack)
Message:
Anon

Reading your post I was able to appreciate what you have gone through. I also appreciate the fairness with which you expressed your concerns. Your questions to Maharaji are ones that only he can answer, and I hope one day you find the answers you're looking for.

In response to your evaluation of premies, I agree with you in part as I have seen many who's life most would not choose to emulate... if for no other reason than it would be out-of-synch with the priorities of most of society today. But I have also seen many who's priorities support practising Knowledge, and for them it bears wonderful fruit. The bad examples should not colour one's perspective of premies because clearly for many, Knowledge has made a very positive contribution to their lives. Not only does it show in them, it also shows in how they've raised their children. They are some of the nicest kids I've met.

Jack
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 23:22:10 (EST)
From: box
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: To(and Jack)
Message:
Kindly elaborate on 'wonderful fruit'.

The 'priorities of most of society', the priorities of most
of society are family and friends and god.
In the case of the wonderful fruit folks, they have to bring
thier kids to M and at the knowledge session, they are told
they cannot recieve k if they have a religion other than m.
The wonderful fruit is having a pretend god!
A pretend master of life, and someone who plants himself between
you and god. But he is self made.
Not divine. This has wonderful fruit? I have missed them I
guess. So did Joan Apter. And bill patterson. And m's own mom.
Perhaps my good fruits were my own doing and my kids are
not the result of my worshipping an idol.
He suggested not telling your kids about god at all and let them
go drift off without my input on the subject.
Do YOU have kids? If you do I think you will think that advice is
poor advice. If you dont help your kids out with thier
attempts at understanding life, they might fall for the first
fast talking savior that comes thier way.
One that YOU wouldnt like.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 00:31:29 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: box
Subject: To(and Jack)
Message:
Joan Apter was the very first speaker at my first program in '72. She was also a speaker in '89 at 'The Festival of Knowledge' in Miami.(I read it in an 'In View' publication). Did she leave M? and when?
Carol
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 01:35:45 (EST)
From: bag
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: To(and Jack)
Message:
I helped joan move from new jersey. she went to santa barbara.
she was no longer an instructor and she couldnt give
devotee/gopi talks anymore. She was empty. There was no more
endless longing for the lord type talk out of her. In fact,
she was dry as a bone in her talks. How did she sound in miami
or la or wherever you heard her?
I am going to write her soon.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 13:48:21 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: bag
Subject: Joan
Message:
I didn't go there. She was quoted in a 'Reflections on the Festival' section of the publication 'In View' 1989 that I read. She expressed that she had just talked with someone who had seen M for the first time and identified with her comments that she understood the importance of M's role in her life as being: focusing the message, bringing the clarity, and keeping the quality, and making sure she knows that she can always experience more. Carol
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 15:39:45 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: To(and Jack)
Message:
I talked to Joan in LA at December program. She seemed to be doing fine.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 23:40:52 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: To Maharaji (and Jack)
Message:

'Knowledge has made a very positive contribution to their
lives. Not only does it show in them, it also shows in how they've raised their children. They are some of the nicest kids I've met
=============================================

So Jack met some nice kids? congrats.
And they seemed nice? good.

Consider this: There just *may* be other premie parents who raised kids who didn't do so well. I could be mean and name a few who ended up with kids with disabilitites. Physical and otherwise. It may have had something to do with traveling without the necessary funds, exposing the kids to dysentery, etc.. to be at the holy residence in Prem Nagar or sacrificing comfort to travel for hours to that next event. Sure the parents were stressed and not paying enough attention but after all, this was the living lord they were attending to.
I am grateful always to some power, (NOT M) that my kids were survivors. Maybe it's genetic, maybe it's just dumb luck, but there is NO Way that M and trip helped. It hurt and we surpassed it.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 10:55:56 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: SERIOUS AS HELL
Message:
I have spent my entire life with the children of premies. They have been DEVASTATED by loss of parents, parents running off to programs, neglect, etc. My heart aches for some of them. The lifestyle has showed its effects. The ones I know who made it into young adulthood with any success had someone else besides their parents showing an interest. I can assure you of this.

Children need to be number one in the hearts of their parents. Many have taken a back seat to the call of the guru. Sadly. Sadly. VP
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 11:39:50 (EST)
From: Now that I have
Email: None
To: premie parents
Subject: offended you...
Message:
...or perhaps just gotten you thinking, I will qualify my statements above. I am sure that some premie parents did the best they could, loved their kids and tried hard to be good. There are plenty of lousy parents who are not premies. The statements above are based on my experiences. That is my experience with the premie parents who I knew/know.

IMHO it's hard to be a good parent when you:
1) Kill yourself
2) Are never home. Breaking promises at the last minute to run off and see your guru. Missing holidays, little league, etc.
3) Giving money that could be going to help your kids via education, clothes, food, etc.

VP
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 12:19:25 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: offended you...
Message:
I'm not offended VP. You aren't saying anything I haven't thought of a million times and bent the ear of my therapist with at just about every session.
It's the biggest problem I have these days, dealing with the guilt. My kids don't feel that way toward me. They love me. I am my own worst enemy in this.
but when I read that post about M and the lifestyle being a GOOD influence, THAT offended me. I got that one from this premie who didn't have kids (good thing too!). The 'logic' used was something to the effect of 'you don't know how their life might have been without M'
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:49:01 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Dearest Selena,
Message:
My dearest Selena,

There is nothing like admitting mistakes to allow us to get past them. Don't beat yourself up too much over the past. It sounds like you have made things right for your kids and that you LOVE them. That is the most important thing that they want from you anyway. You are working on your issues and that is great! From where I am reading, your kids are lucky to have a parent like you who cares enough to dare to make changes that benefit them. Way to go! VP
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 12:24:43 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Beyond hope
Message:
Very well said VP. But, cynical me thinks it's got to be a total waste of time to try and talk sense with this character Jack. I mean anyone who actually thinks that following M has been good for children and families is beyond hope.

I can remember cases of just total devastation in families because of obsession with devotion to the guru which of course the guru encouraged every time he opened his mouth.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 16:14:20 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: SERIOUS AS HELL
Message:
VP

I've been with LOTS of kids of premies and have never met any that were in such dire conditions as you describe. What I've seen exchanged between them and their parents is a lot of love, and a lot of understanding. Some understand the reasons for their parents involvement with Knowledge, some don't. All of them that I know have a strong foundation that comes from having been respected as a person. You need to broaden your sphere VP, and I mine. We both are clearly not getting the whole story.

Jack
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 18:22:29 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: SERIOUS AS HELL
Message:
Jack, you and VP might also be talking about different periods in reference to these things.

The reason I say this is that I also recall a lot of family strife among premies in the 70s and early 80s. Obviously, those kids are now pretty grown up. Since I haven't really been around premies since 1983, I can't say what is happening now.

In those days, I recall BM saying almost nothing about raising children. In fact, I heard him complain that premies were having too many kids, and he saw this because they were dragging them through the darshan line. When I did security in the darshan lines in the 70s and 80s I saw a lot of that 'dragging' going on. In retrospect, I would call a lot of it child abuse. Some of the kids stood for hours in line, were absolutely terrified of BM and the whole scene, and in some cases, the kids were literally forced to go. They certainly had no idea what was going on. M's response was that there were too many kids.

I also saw a lot of families break up over the whole ashram and service scenes. Hundreds of families came to Miami to work on the plane project for example, and many were pressured to break up and become ashramites. Since the service (in this case the plane) were priorities, the kids really got the shaft in a lot of cases. (This actually happened to my brother and his wife (and their kid) but that is another story.)

At programs, parents were encouraged to dump their kids in massive 'child care' mess and go to the program. They took them to that awful Kissimee swamp which was really unsuitable for kids. Maybe that's why in the early 80s, BM did finally ban kids from programs.

I also know a number of couples who had a kind of love hate relationship because they felt that being a householder was 'less' and prevented total dedication, which was all BM was talking about at the time. Hence, I have heard sisters say that they were in relationships with premies and the premie kind of blamed them for preventing them from surrendering to the living god.

BM really reinforced all of that, by not ever talking about the householder life, having exclusive ashram meetings, making his initiators from ashram residents, and giving prime service opportunities only to single, ashram premies. All of this made families feel like they were something less.

Now, this may have changed since the ashrams were closed, but it certainly existed prior to that.

One other example. Someone I knew pretty well in the ashram got a premie ashram sister pregnant. They asked some PAM if abortion was acceptable in the guru-world with BM. The response was that abortion is a no-no as far as BM was concerned. Accordingly, these two people, who were about as ready to get married as the man in the moon, did get married, and the result was a disaster for both of them and the kid. I won't go into details, but it wasn't pretty. The marriage ended pretty quickly, and the kid has severe emotional problems.

There were also a lot of premie parents who tried very hard to provide a normal life to their kids. But when they were flying off to programs every couple of months, that was hard, emotionally and financially.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 18:55:33 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: IT *WAS* HELL
Message:
JW,
It's my turn to want to vomit. It hurts and makes me sick at the same time to think that while I was putting my poor children into those horrible 'child care' setups and forcing them through the stupid darshan line, M is back behind the scenes complaining about premies having too many kids. Of course it was all right for him to grace the world with progeny. Creep. Thanks for helping me along my journey, I think I just made a quantum leap in fact.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:18:16 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: SERIOUS AS HELL
Message:

JW,
That is true- I would be out of touch with the premie kids of today's new and improved EV movement (snicker). But isn't Jack from the good old days, too? I knew kids who ran around in their underwear when the grace of Maharaji was getting their parents to 'festivals' (I never remember these being called programs.) Why didn't the grace get Johnny a darn shirt?!

Jim posted something from a parenting publication that I think was put out by DLM (correct me if I'm wrong, Jim). Trying to address these problems or trying to capitalize on the parenting periodical market? I haven't read the publication. Maybe someone who read this could enighten us about the content.

Children 8 and over can still go to programs, but they have to be quiet and behave or parents have to take them out. This just came in the new itinerary from Maharaji. It says something to the effect that the child should have some knowledge of M before coming to the programs. Someone with the itinerary, am I getting this right? VP
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:24:21 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: SERIOUS AS HELL
Message:
All well and good JW. You've interrpreted the events of our lives with a decidedly negative spin. Others, myself included, would not see things so negatively. For example, child care was first provided as a courtesy. It was subsequently abused by parents. M saw this and stopped providing it at programs. Parents were at first upset but they became noticably more accountable for the care of their kids.

A self-policing note: Make sure you don't ONLY focus on negatives. You'll find them in any situation if you look.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:36:01 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: There you are, Jack
Message:
Jack,

I saw your post above and then lost it, so I'm going to respond here, if that's ok. Man, I find it hard to believe that you didn't see some really bad parenting situations because of the programs. Maybe I really was in tune with this being a child myself. You know, something like, 'Hey, my parents pay attention to me, I have a bike, I have team sports, piano lessons, etc. Wonder why Junior in my peer group runs around in a pair of underwear and cries for his mommy?' I am not making light of this, it was a real problem that I perceived growing up.

I am not claiming to be a scientific poll, just speaking from my experience. I hope that you are right and my observations were in the minority or that JW is right and things aren't like that any more:) Take Care, VP
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:53:54 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: There you are, Jack
Message:
Maybe its a thing of relativity. My particular childhood was not exemplary. By comparison, the respect and love I've seen between premies and their children is enviable. I agree priorities were confused, but overall the ones I know turned out to be respectful and responsible adults. Hey, maybe you're one of them.

Jack
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:56:05 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: SERIOUS AS HELL
Message:
Jack, what I was doing was responding to your statment that M does and says so much that really helps parents. If that is true now, it wasn't true during my involvement. As I said, I don't recall him saying anything about it. And I did see a lot of premie children, and their parents, go through a lot of hell in DLM and Katie has mentioned parents who said the same, and I think VP was actually and PREMIE KID during that period.

As I recall child care was abolished, not because it was good for the kids, but because there weren't any children at programs anymore. And the reason was that kids were distracting at programs and that's why they weren't allowed anymore. Anyway, that's what I was told to communicate to the community premies. I don't agree that there is any evidence that BM eliminated child care because it was bad for the kids. That is your interpretation, but I never heard BM say that or anyone even say he said that.

I agree that parents abused child care, but remember the times. People like Selena and her kids felt it was sinful to NOT attend a program. And programs happend a LOT. They were expensive and hard on kids. What I saw in those darshan lines was pretty revolting too. But many parents felt, because it was the lord of the universe, they owed it to their kids to bring them to the lotus feet. Remember Jack, it was all god, devotion and surrender then. Surely you haven't forgotten that. And BM took zero responsibility to disuade anyone from dragging the kids to programs and darshan. Just like he didn't disuade us from believing he was god incarnate. He just sat there, without comment, and let himself be referred to as the lord of the universe, and all the rest.

Jack, people like you and me were ashram premies. We didn't have to worry about that stuff like kids.

I'm not saying ALL premie kids suffered. I don't believe that's true, although it tended to be the richer premies with kids that tended to do better. The really rich ones even got to go to events with the lord's children!

I might have a different viewpoint having been coordinator in Miami during the plane project. I saw a lot of kids suffer and get the shaft during that period after being uprooted from all over the country and living in crummy conditions in Miami. But then, that also happened to alot of adult premies, too.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 22:11:48 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW/Jack
Subject: My parents weren't premies
Message:
Jack and JW,
To straighten you guys out, my parents weren't premies. I have several family members who are/were premies. I grew up with kids of premies and adult premies in the family so that is where I am coming from.

A friend of mine and I were just discussing this and he said to me, 'Maybe the premies were so blissful during the programs that they didn't realize what was going on with the kids.' I never thought of that before. A possiblility?

Vic, Veep, VP
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 11:51:45 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: SERIOUS AS HELL
Message:
JW please be fair... your damning him if he did and damning him if he didn't. In my years I saw M have more and more direct say in what happened at events. You say M was inconsiderate of the plight of parents by forcing them to bring their kids to events through fear and intimidation. Well forgive me JW but that's pure revisionism on your part. Parents LOVED coming to events. No they weren't being programmed to love it... they LOVED it. It was fulfilling, meaningful, and a lot of fun. Argue all you want about the merits of having such a priority, but events and M fulfilled an important need that premies had for self-actualization.

Child care addressed the reality of premies having kids and that they brought their children to events. M was very accomodating in that he knew people loved coming to events and wanted to find a way to make sure as many as could come, would be able to come. He put a stop to child-care because parents were being irresponsible. What more would you have done JW? And another thing, if
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 11:57:19 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: SERIOUS AS HELL
Message:
Sorry, I got confused. The above post is not from JW but to JW. I'm getting alzheimer's.

Jack
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 13:09:33 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Sorry Jack and Brian
Message:
That's okay, Jack, please ignore my admonition for using my initials.

I may have alzheimers, too. I think in that last post I failed to close an html. Brian, mea culpa.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 13:01:16 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: SERIOUS AS HELL
Message:
First, Jack, don't use my tag to respond to me, it's, shall we say, 'inconsiderate.' Second, don't make up stuff I didn't say and lambast me for it. It makes you look stupid. For example:

You say M was inconsiderate of the plight of parents by forcing them to bring their kids to events through fear and intimidation.

When did I ever say this? You just made it up. I never said BM 'forced' parents to do anything. And I never used the words 'fear and intimidation' even once. Come on, Jack, what I said was that BM never EXPRESSED any concern for the plight of parents during my involvement as a premie for 10 years. That's what I said. And he didn't do that despite the obvious suffering premie kids were experiencing trying to attend programs every couple of months under very unsuitable conditions and the financial hardships a lot of premie families faced trying to attend programs, donate money to BM, do service and the like. I personally saw a lot of that suffering. BM also never spoke about the householder life, and the parents often felt like second class citizens to the ashram premies/initiators, etc, and many now say they did things they regret in putting BM number one, above their kids, and a lot of marriages broke up because premies wanted to put BM number one, because, at the time, that was BM's endless mantra -- devotion and surrender to BM was ALL that was important. Of course, you don't respond to this, because you can't.

Parents LOVED coming to events. No they weren't being programmed to love it... they LOVED it.

How the hell do you know? Were you a parent at the time? Maybe parents did LOVE it, but as VP, Katie and I have mentioned, a lot of parents now say they DIDN'T LOVE it. Again, I took pains in my post to say that in no way do I imply that this was a universal experience of all premie parents. But you seem to be willing to apply this 'they-loved-it' label to ALL parents, when you have no way of knowing that. So this argument is both disengenuous and specious.

M fulfilled an important need that premies had for self-actualization.

You are entitled to your interpretation here, but a whole lot of ex-premies would strongly disagree.

He put a stop to child-care because parents were being irresponsible.

You keep saying this, but offer absolutely no proof. Remember Jack, I was there. As CC I was told by PAM that children were no longer allowed at programs because they were distracting to what BM was saying. This was in 1981 and there was no mention, whatsoever, that this was being done for the benefit of the children. This is revisionism on your part. Obviously, if no more kids were at programs, there was no need for any childcare. If you have some proof to the contrary, let's hear it, but otherwise, I know personally what you are saying is not true.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 15:58:08 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: To Maharaji (and Jack)
Message:
Thanks Selena but I don't need any congratulations. I have met many parents with Knowledge who raised beautiful kids. I'm sure there are some that are not - I just haven't personally met any. Are you talking about your own kids and what you dragged them through? If so, gonna take any responsibility yourself for that. Gonna give any credit to M for any positive advice he may have given along the way.

Really Selena you're like a rabid dog. You are far too quick to condemn anything that is positive about M. This makes your input appear biased and closed-minded. I personally much prefer reading Anon's posts where he presents his ideas and concerns fairly - not that I always agree with him but he is obviously taking into account more of the spectrum than you.

Jack
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:15:24 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: woof!!
Message:
Gee, I didn't like my new haircut that much either, but i didn't think it was exactly canine.

See?? See?? It's *exactly* what I have been saying since January. Give M the credit for the good stuff, anything bad happens it's your fault or the evil mind or the unenlightened masses or the world, maya, etc....
But the good stuff? One source for that. How could anyone doubt it for a minute? How many more times do I have to hear this simple truth before I wake up and see how I have strayed? (as in stray? get it? I am going to have too much fun with this one I think)
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:47:32 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: woof!!
Message:
No, your haircut looks great - it becomes you, honestly.

Haircut aside, it seems extreme of you to have been involved for the years you were, and now having left, you ONLY see negatives ...even where there were positives.

Put M aside for a moment. And the bad examples of premies - which are not the norm. Can you honestly say there was no good fruit resulting from your involvement, or that of others? For you they may not outway the negatives - that's another issue - but to only focus on negatives... well you lose a lot of credibility when you do.

Jack
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 22:01:00 (EST)
From: Scatman
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: woof!!
Message:
Put M aside for a moment.

What? He was the focus of the whole trip!

And the bad examples of premies - which are not the norm.

Huh? NOT the norm? I beg to differ.

...even where there were positives.

Positives? Like what?

well you lose a lot of credibility when you do.

Is this the proverbial pot calling the kettle black, or what?

You know, it seems really 'extreme' to me that any rational, thinking person, in this day and age would actually swallow the BM's bullshit..
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:47:27 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jack and all
Subject: To Maharaji (and Jack)
Message:
I wasn't going to join in this thread because I don't have children, thus I never experienced the effect of my being a premie on my own kids. I do want to say a couple of things though.

First, Jack, in defense of Selena. I don't think you should have called Selena a rabid dog. She sounds angry to me, but not crazed or psychotic, which is what 'rabid dog' implies. I have some friends who are both ex-premies and mothers, and talking about what their kids went through while they were premies makes them more angry than anything else about their premie days. A lot of this anger is directed at themselves for being the ones who followed Maharaji. I am sure that there are very good premie parents, but most of the people I knew didn't have money so there were some real problems and sacrifices made to get the kids to festivals, to do 'service' for Maharaji, and so forth. Sometimes what was sacrificed was the parent's time with the child, or things that could have been bought or done for the child.

One of my best friends quit being a premie because of the contrast between how Maharaji's kids were treated at festivals (air conditioned room in front of the stage), and the way she had to treat her kids: heat, sleeping on cement floors, having to 'drag' them everywhere as both you and Selena mentioned. Sometimes there's just no alternative to 'dragging' your kids everywhere, especially when you feel like you HAVE to do something - like get darshan.

My friend also felt very guilty for being a householder premie. She and her husband felt compelled to move to Miami to work on the first plane project (I'm not sure if there were others), and conditions were pretty bad. They did feel that they HAD to do it, because otherwise they just weren't giving enough to Maharaji. It sounds really dumb now, but we are talking about people in their early 20's who got married (as premies) at a very young age and had very little knowledge of the world outside of Maharaji. I think it would have helped a lot, if, as JW mentioned, Maharaji had talked about being a householder and having children, and how that was NOT inferior to living in the ashram.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 22:21:04 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: hypocrisy (to Jack)
Message:
Jack,

When you said:

Really Selena you're like a rabid dog. You are far too quick to condemn anything that is positive about M. This makes your input appear biased and closed-minded. I personally much prefer reading Anon's posts where he presents his ideas and concerns fairly - not that I always agree with him but he is obviously taking into account more of the spectrum than you.

you make me wonder. Are you suggesting that YOU are unbiased and open-minded? I just see you defending Maharaji incessantly. Where's YOUR open mind?

Also, I don't see any evidence that Selena's jumped the gun here with any hasty opinions. Your 'too quick' criticism would only make sense if she was wading into some argument over something she knew nothing about and shooting from the hip. Frankly, I think she, like most of us, has had a whole lot of exposure to this particular cult and tons of experience to inform her judgment.

Jack, somewhere else here I noticed you questioned someone else's basis for criticising Maharaji on the basis that they'd only been in the cult for a year or two. Before, when you first logged on it was to try to discredit me as some sort of sleazy, druggie or something -- again, no one to listen to. Remember?

These are all ad hominem arguments, Jack. They're evasive tactics designed to avoid substantive argument. The issue here isn't how 'fine a person' I am or am not. It isn't about Selena's character either. It isn't even about your character, Jack. It's about the truth. It's about who the guy in the videos is. That's all.

Now, I've got to give you some credit, too, because it does seems as if you're actually trying to discuss things here. I've got to warn you, though, this is all mind terrain. Careful - g!
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 10:25:49 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jack
Subject: Jack
Message:
Dear Jack,
There are many ex's who still practice K and are loving participants in this life and have raised wonderful children. All those good things are NOT tied to M and M is not tied to K!!!
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 16:33:53 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Jack
Message:
Robyn, please don't jump on me here. I'm not saying people who follow M are the only people who know how to raise kids. But if you think some of M's positive advice re; children didn't get translated into the raising of those wonderful children you described, you are in denial.

Jack
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 17:17:24 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Children
Message:
The most inspiring thing I can remember M saying about children in 5 years of listening (apart from that beautiful concept - the heart of a child) is - is that you don't need to raise children, they actually raise themselves. He went on to qualify that by saying be there for them when they need you. Just the fact that he has had to say things like that recently, (within the past year) and also, that you don't have to leave your job or family to follow him, suggests to me he has been getting feedback indicating what some people are up to with their devotion.

Remember, knowledge has to be number one priority. Everything else comes second.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:21:11 (EST)
From: Scatman
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Children-My two scents
Message:
Why the BM would be averse to premies having families.

Stinky reason number one: Kids cost money, time, energy and love. Less for the BM.

Smelly reason number two: Kids might just provide an incentive to lead an independent life apart from the influence of the Goo. Also not good for BM
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:32:44 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Scatman
Subject: Children-My two scents
Message:
Positive reason number three: Sounds like a dreamy idea to have kids, but you better bloody well be sure you're up for it before you do... 'cause you can't put 'em back.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:40:16 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Children-My two scents
Message:
We agree on something! (Not that I agree that this was M's reason. I just agree that people should be up to parenting before they make the plunge.)
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 21:42:22 (EST)
From: Scatman
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: The smell of money
Message:
Hey, Jack I just thought of something. Maybe you can't put the little dream machines back, BUT, what if they were donated to EV as a sort of pool of instant devotees? Now that's devotion.

(I hope the big Kahuna isn't listening to this one--he'll rewrite the book of Rajneesh and have premies multiplying like divine bunnies.)
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 22:31:08 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Red herring (to Jack)
Message:
And another thing --

This whole thread is stupid. Big red herring. You're not going to prove that any cult is good or bad because its members have nice kids. Oh, I guess if the cult was one dedicated to certain child-rearing practices, you could get into that. In fact, if the cult promised that its practice made for a 'better product' you'd probably have to wade in and really compare kids raised therein to all the rest.

But your point here, Jack, that premies' kids are somehow better than other kids is a really outrageous argument to try to determine Maharaji's integrity/veracity over. How in the world could you prove it? It'd be like saying that premies are, for the most part, more honest than other people. Really, they SHOULD be, given the supposed effect Knoweldge has on people, but there are so many ways that premie dishonesty could be explained away. It's a really useless enterprise. Forget it, I say.

There are many more direct and interesting issues to consider if you want to understand Maharaji.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 22:43:43 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Red herring (to Jack)
Message:
'This whole thread is stupid. Big red herring. You're not going to prove that any cult is good or bad because its members have nice kids.'

Jim, I disagree with this statement. Maharaji ruined the lives of some of the innocent victims of his cult--the kids. Some of them MY friends and relatives. The anti-family part of what M did was VERY bad.

I guess someone could say that a thread about giving money to M is stupid, too, but I doubt that you would agree with this. It all comes down to where a person was hit by this shit. This is part of where I was hit. Stupid or not, it is relevant to me.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 22:53:56 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Red herring (to Jack)
Message:
VP,

I completely misspoke. I didn't mean for a second that the thread was stupid [even though that's exactly what I said]. Indeed, quite the opposite. I meant the reason for it, i.e. Jack's argument that Maharaji is somehow vindicated b/c there are some nice premie kids, was useless.

Okay, I'm obviously not paying enough attention here. I'll shut up now.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 23:20:48 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Red herring (to Jim)
Message:
Jim, I thought maybe that was what you meant. (Even if that's not what you said.) Sorry to get my nose out of joint with you. VP
Think I'll shut up now, too. Gotta go let the cat out of these pajamas, VROOM! (sorry, ladies)
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 00:03:35 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: VP and Jim
Subject: Red herring (to Jack)
Message:
Hey Jim
Thanks a lot! The heaviest issue in my life is my relationship to my children, I try to express how it tied into being a premie. I did this in theone place I thought people would understand, on the forum, and the resident guru tells me it's a stupid thread.

I could have had this kind of experience with M and gone to the beach too.
My therapist told me I was getting addicted to this site and that I was getting out of touch with the original purpose of why I posted here in the first place.
Looks like she may be right, as usual. I think I should take a break (not just threaten to as you do)
I guess everyone has to have their turn getting confronted by you. And I know you didn't address that remark strictly to me, but you must have seen how important it was to me.
Jack was actually more sensitive, even with the rabid dog name! and I had fun with that at least.
but hey, I know none of this is real and it's all inside and you were just in your mind.
Jai sat ..... (just realized that looks like Jay sat as in jay sat down)
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 00:07:22 (EST)
From: the whiny little puppy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Red herring to Jim
Message:
Oh and by the way,
I am not really mad. Just felt like posting that last msg. because

a. This is a very important issue to me
b. That darn counselor is right and I know it
c. I'm a jerk sometimes
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 00:15:32 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Red herring (to Jack)
Message:
Selena, Jim corrected and apologized for that post. See, above. I don't think he or anyone else thinks this thread is insignificant. it think it's VERY significant and I don't even have kids.

Selena, thanks so much for you contributions. Taking a break can be good. Even all these years later, it's still sometimes hard for me to look at this stuff without some turmoil
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 00:22:18 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: to Selena
Message:
Hi Selena -
JW's right - taking a break can be good. When things on the site start to spill over too much into my everyday life, then I try and back off for a while.

I AM curious to know what your counselor said, and why (if you don't want to say it on the forum, I understand completely). Also, I will echo JW again in saying that I think you are making a great contribution to this site and really helping other people who post here. That's also a good reason to post, IMHO, although it may not have been your original purpose.

Katie
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 10:31:17 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Hey Selena
Message:
Hey Selena,

So by now you can imagine how I cringed when I discovered that I'd put my foot in my mouth not once, but twice, here yesterday. First, telling some phantom anonymous poster that posting like that just confuses everyone (good point, I'll have to remember it if the situation ever really arises);then suggesting that talking about premie kids was stupid. As I tried to explain as soon as VP tipped me off to the fact that I'd said as much, that wasn't at all what I meant. Hopefully you read that post. Anyway, I'll repeat myself: that's not what I meant. At all. It goes without saying that the question of how membership in this cult affects kids is an extremely important and interesting one. Sorry that what I said seemed to say otherwise.

I only meant that that was a near-impossible issue to assess Maharaji over. What was stupid was someone, in this case, Jack, arguing that Maharaji must be doing something right, the kids are so nice.

I'd like to think that yesterday was a fluke. If I continue putting my foot in my mouth I'll get out the manual and check the calibrations. Sorry again.

Jim
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 12:13:16 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Red herring (to Jack)
Message:
Jim, if I could only go back and count the number of red-herrings you have fished up from the deep.

No Jim, I'm just tired of you guys always aluding to some oblique correlation between M and every negative point you're able to spin about your life while practising K. It tells me that YOU are the revisionists here in that you've completely thrown out anything that was positive for you. In as much as you only focus on the negative you are like a pack of rabid dogs. The ones in the group that I have any affiliation with are those that can not only look at the negative, but also give the positive some airtime too. That's called being open-minded. (And Jim yes, I too have acknowledged negatives in my posts.)
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 13:19:28 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Positives to my GM experience
Message:
I got to go to England in 1972 or 73.

Got my picture in the local newspaper.

Got laid for the first time.

Got to travel around the country (hey, I'm struggling here, but really trying)

Met some new friends (although I am not in contact with a single one of them now).

Learned a little Hindi

Wore my first suit, purchased by the ashram.

Learned some discernment as to what was or wasn't a fraud.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 13:34:00 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Positives to my GM experience
Message:
Very funny, Gerry.

Hope you don't mind, I've moved this little chat upstream.

Other positives might include:

Not falling into any other cult.

Not smoking through my twenties.

Not moving back home.
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 17:04:19 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Goo Hits the Road
Message:
I just let Katie know, I sent the videos and lipstick cassettes off for a road trip today via UPS..(also told her there used to be a punk band here called UPS - stood for Useless Pieces of Shit and I find that synchronistic)
Turns out there weren't quite as many videos as I thought, the garbage bag also had some stuff in it that I had stashed away, christmas decorations mostly. I suppose one could find a coincidence there too. Anyway, you guys can figure out how to divvy them up, there's still enuf - too many .
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 12:32:02 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: The Goo Hits the Road - ps
Message:
One other little amusing story about mailing the tapes, it's one of those You had to Be There things, but:
When I presented the package the woman at Maiboxes, etc. asked me 'What is the value of the package?'
I found myself tounge tied. I must have hesitated for 5 seconds. She looked up at me, and so I just blurted out somethng just to have some answer, I said ' I don't know, they are a bunch of old video tapes'
She responded, 'Oh, sentimental value'
I am really glad she wasn't scrutinizing my face. She would have had to have concluded I was smuggling contraband, what with all the conflicting emotions going on just under the painted on stupid grin I had.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 15:06:10 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Selena
Subject: The Goo Hits the Road - ps
Message:
Thanks for sending them, Selena. I will send the lipsticked tapes to Bill for his altar, and videos to all exes who would like to review them. Let me know, everyone, if you would like to do this 'service'!

Katie

P.S. All I can say is that it's a good thing you didn't have them packaged in a powder blue Samsonite train case! (in-joke, sorry!)
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 16:29:25 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: The Goo Hits the Road - ps
Message:
ooo, sneaky.. I did get the Samsonite part. Still haven't run into any objectionable in-law material, by the way.
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 02:46:32 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Get the tissues out ...
Message:
I received this from in an email.

GET THE TISSUES OUT FOR THIS ONE......

By Roy Exum

When Tony Campolo was in Chattanooga last week to speak at
the annual 'Gathering of Men' breakfast, the noted sociologist told a story that begs to be repeated.

It seems that there was a lady named Jean Thompson and when she
stood in front of her fifth-grade class on the very first day of
school in the fall, she told the children a lie. Like most teachers,
she looked at her pupils and said that she loved them all the same,
that she would treat them all alike. And that was impossible because
there in front of her, slumped in his seat on the third row, was a boy
named Teddy Stoddard.

Mrs. Thompson had watched Teddy the year before and noticed he didn't
play well with the other children, that his clothes were unkempt and
that he constantly needed a bath. Add to it the fact Teddy was
unpleasant.

It got to the point during the first few months that she would
actually take delight in marking his papers with a broad red pen,
making bold 'X's and then marking the 'F' at the top of the paper
biggest of all.

Because Teddy was a sullen little boy, nobody else seemed to enjoy
him, either. Now at the school where Mrs. Thompson taught, she was
required to review each child's records and because of things, put
Teddy's off until the last. But, when she opened his file, she was
in for a surprise.

His first-grade teacher wrote, 'Teddy is a bright, inquisitive child
with a ready laugh. He does work neatly and has good manners...he is
a joy to be around.'

His second-grade teacher wrote, 'Teddy is an excellent student and is
well-liked by his classmates -- but he is troubled because his mother
has a terminal illness and life at home must be a struggle.'

His third-grade teacher wrote, 'Teddy continues to work hard but his
mother's death has been hard on him. He tries to do his best but his
father doesn't show much interest and his home life will soon affect
him if some steps aren't taken.'

Teddy's fourth-grade teacher wrote, 'Teddy is withdrawn and doesn't
show much interest in school. He doesn't have many friends and
sometimes sleeps in class. He is tardy and could become a problem.'

By now Mrs. Thompson realized the problem but Christmas was coming
fast. It was all she could do, with the school play and all, until
the day before the holidays began and she was suddenly forced to focus
on Teddy Stoddard on that last day before the vacation would begin.
Her children brought her presents, all in gay ribbon and bright paper,
except for Teddy's, which was clumsily wrapped in the heavy, brown
paper of a scissored grocery bag.

Mrs. Thompson took pains to open it in the middle of the other
presents and some of the children started to laugh when she found a
rhinestone bracelet, with some of the stones missing, and a bottle
that was one-quarter full of cologne. She stifled the laughter when
she exclaimed how pretty the bracelet was, putting it on, and she
dabbed some of the perfume behind the other wrist.

At the end of the day, as the other children joyously raced from the
room, Teddy Stoddard stayed behind, just long enough to say, 'Mrs.
Thompson, today you smelled just like my mom used to.' As soon as
Teddy left, Mrs. Thompson knelt at her desk and there, after the last
day of school before Christmas, she cried for at least an hour. On
that very day, she quit teaching reading and writing and speaking.
Instead, she began to teach children. And Jean Thompson paid
particular attention to one they all called 'Teddy'.

As she worked with him, his mind seemed to come alive. The more she
encouraged him, the faster he responded and, on days that there would
be an important test, Mrs. Thompson would remember that cologne. By
the end of the year he had become one of the smartest children in the
class and...well, he had also become the 'pet' of the teacher who had
once vowed to love all of her children exactly the same.

A year later she found a note under her door, from Teddy, telling her
that of all the teachers he'd had in elementary school, she was his
favorite.

Six years went by before she got another note from Teddy. And then he
wrote that he had finished high school, third in his class, and she
was still his favorite teacher of all time.

Four years after that, she got another letter, saying that while
things had been tough at times, that he'd stayed in school, had stuck
with it, and would graduate from college with the highest of honors.
He assured Mrs. Thompson she was still his favorite teacher.

Then four more years passed and yet another letter came. This time he
explained that after he got his bachelor's degree, he decided to go a
little further. The letter explained that she was still his favorite
teacher but that now his name was a little longer. And the letter was
signed, 'Theodore F. Stoddard, M.D.'

The story doesn't end there. You see, there was yet another letter
that Spring. Teddy said that...well, that he'd met this girl and was
to be married. He explained that his father had died a couple of
years ago and he was wondering...well, if Mrs. Thompson might agree
to sit in the pew usually reserved for the mother of the groom.

You'll have to decide yourself whether or not she wore that bracelet,
the one with several rhinestones missing. But, I bet on that special
day, Jean Thompson smelled just like... well, just like she smelled
many years before on the last day of school before the Christmas
Holidays began.

*****************************************************************

A friend is one who comes in when the whole world has gone out.

------------------------------------------------
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 03:33:44 (EST)
From: kleenex
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: Get the tissues out ...
Message:
fiction
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 22:53:55 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: kleenex
Subject: Of corn oil...
Message:
This one is non-fictional.

A friend of my family's was a teacher in Kentucky for many years. One year she had a student very much like the child described in the story above. He had both parents, but a sad home life and he was VERY poor. For Christmas, he gave her a bottle of corn oil. She was a bit surprised, having never received a bottle of corn oil as a gift before.

When school resumed after the break, she annouced to the class that they would be making some popcorn that day, with the oil from that little boy. Was he proud! VP
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Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 at 00:37:49 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: kleenex
Subject: Get the tissues out ...
Message:
Hi kleenix,

Are you being smart, cute? I got the email from a reasonable source, do you really think this was fiction? Please share. Tell the tales for all to understand.

GAGBWY

-gumby
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 11:45:32 (EST)
From: peter
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: Get the tissues out ...
Message:
Many years ago a men paid for what has been done to
many others,his own wife was havin the day of her life with a security inside of the motorhome the place was in Miami where they used to have the horses,why all you people complain so much he also paid his own Karma remember everything doesn´t seem like it.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 22:49:09 (EST)
From: rivo alto
Email: None
To: peter
Subject: Peter...and Miami
Message:
Yes you are right about the affair.
Did you get to the horse farm?
And DECA?
Did you go work at the residence?
Or raja ji's
How have YOU been?
How are YOU? Are you doing OK?
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 05:51:03 (EST)
From: peter
Email: None
To: rivo alto
Subject: Peter...and Miami
Message:
HI rivo. I didn`t have the the Real Conections to be envolve en- volve in those projets but I knew everybody who was. Im doing OK The Knowlege works and thats it,Rivo you must be sombody who is real close ?
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 00:00:55 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: peter
Subject: Get the tissues out ...
Message:
Hi peter,

I apologize, but what are you trying to express?. Your dialect is way beyond my little peabrain. Try me again?

GAGBWY

-gumby
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 08:40:09 (EST)
From: peter
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: Get the tissues out ...
Message:
Im sorry too ,maybe next time ,I got the wrong addres have a nice day. Peter
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 03:45:11 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: gumby
Subject: Get the tissues out ...
Message:
Thanks for that and yes it did require the use of a tissue by the time I'd finished.
I particularly like the phrase, 'A friend is one who comes in when the whole world has gone out'. That's very, very true.
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 02:36:43 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Off the radar screen...
Message:
Hi Jim,

I tried to find our thread, and puff it has been moved to inactive status, wherein it is not possible to reply. So here is the revival. My sincere apologies if my responses have not been clear enough for your sharp mind. I'm doing my best.

Your last post:

1) You may have 'responded to my post', in the sense that you posted a reply and negotiated around the same subject matter but you sure as hell didn't answer my questions. Do you think you did? Look, it's really simple.

Question a: But is this any different than 'accepting Jesus in one's heart'?


Please allow me to repeat myself:
Yes it is different. For me, I love God with all my heart, soul and mind. (Notice the addition of mind, and soul in addition to heart) I believe all three are important.

Question b: Have you ever heard that phrase?
Yes Sir, I have heard the phrase before.

Question c: Do you ever use it?
When talking to close friends, I have used that phrase, but I am cautious about using that phrase unless we make sure that there is no misunderstanding, since it is so easy to do in this kind of forum.

Question d: Does it mean something different to you than your own terminology?
Sir, to really answer this question properly, I need to know what it means to you, so that I can make a comparison.

These are straighforward. I don't know what else to tell you other than if you think you can have a good discussion without direct responsiveness, you're wrong. Well, let me qualify that, it's impossible when people are directly ad odds with one another.
Are we ad odds with each other? I don't consider to be ad odds with you.

2) I don't want to hash anything out. I said that if you wanted to argue about this, I would. I assumed that you knew some here would disagree with the premises underlying your invitation and that, by inviting feedback, you were challenging people like me to some sort of debate. I meant I'd argue about this with you, if you wanted, but only if you promised to do so thoroughly and fairly.
I am interested in feedback. If anyone, you of course included, wants to share whats going on inside, from a spiritual perspective, thats great. I view this as dicussion, communication, not really debate. I think debate has a *goal* in mind, i.e. lets crush gumby. Whereas discussing, communicating may actually have a gathering effect. Maybe we can reach a common understanding.

3) I'm not 'offended' so much as bemused that you'd invite us all to play the born-again Christian game. I understand that that's what born-agains do from time to time and that, from your perspective, you're just sharing what means most to you with a bunch of people I also assume you've grown to like a bit over the forum. I'm surprised that you'd think anyone here would be interested in taking you up on your invitation but maybe you just wanted to extend it and 'let Christ slowly work on us' or something. Kind of like a hex. That's okay, I guess. But really -- and here's yet another question for you (call it 'e'): did you really think you'd get any takers? If so (yes 'f'), whom?
First of all, I am surprised that you are surprised.:) After all, God has put the desire to know Him inside all of us. You, more than anyone I have come into contact with, are a brilliant living example. Didn't you spend 8(?) years following someone you thought was God? Now tell me, truthfully, that you did *not* have the desire to know God. Therefore, yes, I believe there are people who do want to share. Whom, well I don't know. Maybe you.

4) Didn't you read my next post? That was a typo. I meant 'sign', not 'sin'. Funny eh? The random, godless universe works in mysterious ways.
Pretty funny, I think you have a great future as a stand-up comedian. And yes, God is working in mysterious ways. By the way what is your defintion of sin?

May God's Grace be multiplied within you, my friend.

-gumby
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 04:38:02 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: Off the radar screen...
Message:
Just butting in for a sec...
I am growing into enjoying your posts more and more.
Maybe for Jim that's a minus for you ...but thought
I'd tell you anyways.
WARM regards ....Keith
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Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 at 00:03:26 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Off the radar screen...
Message:
Regards to you also.

GAGBWY

-gumby
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 06:24:20 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Sudio57@btinternet.comt
To: gumby
Subject: Off the radar screen...
Message:
Gumby. One of the reasons I have not got into any meaningful dialogue with you is because I know very little about you. Why the secrecy? Surely you've nothing to hide?

I would like to know whether you are male or female and what age you are. Also I would like to know for how long you've been a born again Christian.

No need to keep any secrets here. I am 45, live in England and did have an interest in Christianity myself in 1971 before I encountered Guru Maharaj Ji. I showed no more than an 'interest' because I couldn't swallow all the inconsistences that I saw in Christianity. I could never become a Christian now in your sense of the word but I do have some Christian ideals.

So please, be a bit more open with us and we'll be more forward with you.
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Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 at 00:01:47 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Off the radar screen...
Message:
Hi Sir David,

Thank you for responding to my post. I have nothing to hide. I come in front of this forum in anonymity for several reasons:

I am experimenting with it. I would like to see if greater, more open communication can result. If one knows who I am, then there is greater potential for preconceived images, projections, etc. to cloud ones thinking. For example, suppose I was a dear 80 year old lady, then every post that was exchanged might have some preconceived notion of who is sitting behind this keyboard somewhere in this small world.

I have a sincere desire to share in my experience of God with whoever wants to. Since this site is about m, I also would like to help anyone who is questioning, having doubts about m, in any way that I can, for I believe he is a false teacher.

I have really always considered myself to believe in God. (Or something that could be defined as God) But it was mostly at a theoretical, or an intellectual level. I also have spent a lot of years searching, embracing, various teachings. Then some things happened in my life about 8-months ago, that caused a radical shift within me. I made a choice to let God be at the center of my life. So, a year ago if you would have asked me: gumby, what is the most important thing in the world to you? I might have answered: Ahh..., well..., maybe my family, friends, work, fun, etc. Now the answer is very simply: God. Cleary, this doesn't mean that those other things are no longer important to me.

I am sorry if you are not compelled to share, because of my anonymity, but I hope you understand.

GAGBWY

-gumby
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 07:25:28 (EST)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: Off the radar screen...
Message:
Gumby: the trouble with 'born again' fundamentalist christianity is the exclusive cosmology it presents, i.e., god created the world with the specific intent to sent his only begotten son at some point in time. He came about 2000 years ago and got crucified for our sins, so that we could obtain salvation. Only by accepting this scenario and accepting jesus as our personal lord and savior(born again), can we be saved and obtain eternal salvation. And our guide in all this is the bible, the true word of god.

A nice tidy cosmology. You're in or you're out. Never heard of jesus because you live in the jungles of Borneo-out of luck. Mainstream christion-out of luck. Anyone else is really screwed-(but then who would you have to witness to)
unless you're one of the 144,000 jews needed to be there for the 'end times.' Bible inconsistant and written by numerous men over several centuries?-Hey, don't think about things you're not supposed to think about.

To many born agains, even god(let's even assume a per
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Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 at 00:23:32 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: Off the radar screen...
Message:
Hi Paul,

Thanks for replying to my post. It seems that the last part of your post was snipped. (?)

I can appreciate your words. There is certainly alot to struggle with. I don't have all the answers. There are lots of issues I struggle with. God, in His awesomeness, is beyond my comprehension. Gods thoughts are not our thoughts, His ways are not our ways. This clearly doesn't mean that I should close my eyes and my ears. I believe God wants us to think about things, to question and test everything. This is what discernment is about. Any good relationship of value takes effort, time, energy, and willingness. So does getting to know God. Why would I be so inane to think that a relationship with God, would just happen, and sustain itself. I think it is important, to *not* discount the struggles, the *hard issues*, but at the same time I believe that the good news of Jesus Christ is really what is at the core here.

GAGBWY

-gumby
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 10:51:16 (EST)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: Off the radar screen...
Message:
Gumby: Maybe you can clarify for me what type of christian you are. I have no problem with christians who by virtue of culture, upbringing, personal experience, etc. have found that for them, a belief in Jesus, and practicing christianity (in whatever wat they do) furthers their spiritual goals. Unfortunately, many christians are not content with this. Christianity, and more specifically salvation by belief in Jesus becomes a universal truth and an absolute. I see this as not much different than believing that GM is the one and only perfect master(the current incarnation of Jesus). How expansive is your view of christainity? Are all other paths somehow filled with delusion? Is Jesus the only truth,light and way? Look forward to your response.

Paul
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 01:44:26 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: Off the radar screen...
Message:
Hi Paul,

Thank you for your post. I appreciate your willingness.

Towards the end you wrote:
How expansive is your view of christainity? Are all other paths somehow filled with delusion? Is Jesus the only truth,light and way?

Is it important what I believe? Are you going to place your beliefs on what I say? If I sit here and tell you what I believe, how is that going to get you closer to the truth? Don't you have to decide for yourself? Make your own decisions? I can share what God has shared with us, through His written Word:

...From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ...

...I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again...

...For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him...

...Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

...I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty...

Do you believe these words to be true?

GAGBWY

-gumby
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 06:29:29 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: Off the radar screen...
Message:
I can share what God has shared with us, through His written Word

dear gumby, I really don't want to take up too much with you and I really like you...you were the first person to ask very kindly about how I was doing when I first joined this Forum very recently. It was people like you, Katie, Jim and Scott who made me feel welcome and not scared to join in here.

Gumby I think it is important to not take things too literally. There are many stories about Jesus, and who know what he really said, or what words were attributed to him by others?

I saw a program recently which explained that the 'Christ' had always been an archetypal (unreal but ideal) image, and then it was agreed by the church that Jesus the person would be joined to that concept - thus 'Jesus Christ'. There are many ideas about Jesus but it is difficult to read quotes like these, as if from the voice of god - not to be questioned or interpreted but as if 'they are true because Jesus said them'.

I do think it is not necessarily true for others trying to recover from a set of beliefs which involved not asking any questions, to be addressed in the tone of 'do you believe, well do you?' It's just too evangelistic. That's my say and you'll probably hate me but I don't hate you at all and appreciate everything you have to say on every other subject. Warm regards, Jude.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 02:39:38 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: Off the radar screen...
Message:
Hi Jude,

Thank you for your kind words. Please don't worry about anything you say in regards to me. I can't imagine hating you regardless of what you might say or don't say. OK?

Jude, Suppose you and I went to see a work of Shakespeare, lets say it was Romeo and Juliet. Also suppose it was that recent movie about a year ago with Leonardo D'Caprio (Sp??) Did you see the film? It was based in some futuristic setting in venice beach, sort of wierd but quite entertaining. Now suppose, after the movie we started discussing the whole experience. Also suppose that we came to some point where we started to disagree about what happened in the film relating to the accuracy of the film. Now it is not unreasonable to at some point go to the authors original work and see what was written. I view the Bible as God's gift to us. It is a historical account, it has poetry, similes, hyperboles, parables, analogies, etc. there is a lot there.

It is interesting, and fascinating to me that most people I talk to have such an aversion to the Bible. There first response is very similar to what your perspective is. Well the Bible is just a bunch of stories. The original meaning must have been lost through translation. We shouldn't take it literally, etc, etc. I also find that most people have *not* read the Bible. They have received these notions, not by spending time reading the Bible, but from some other secondary source. I am not here to condemn. I have a sincere desire to talk about God. I can share my own personel experience, BUT at some point the word of God will, by necessity, come up.

Jesus the Christ, had much to bring us. He made some very wild statements. He, I believe did say the things I quoted in the last post. I do believe, and trust in Him. I trust in Him, with all my mind, soul, and heart. He is the most important part of my life. I am not asking anyone to blindly accept Him. Obviously, all questions, doubts, struggles, are welcome. It also does not imply that I have all the answers. There is no human that has all the answers, that is another reason that it is so important to seek and study the word of God.

Jude, I am so happy to have a relationship with God. It actually is hard to describe in words. I don't want to appear like a 'holier then thou' type of person. That is not my intent. I want to share the good news of Jesus, for he is about good news. :)

By the way, the word 'Christ' means 'Annointed One' or 'Chosen One', it is not Jesus' last name, but more of a title.

I also send you warm greetings.

-gumby
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 05:23:10 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: Off the radar screen...
Message:
Dear Gumby
Thank you for sharing how you feel.
I am glad you have faith and trust in your life.
Regards
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 13:47:40 (EST)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: Off the radar screen...
Message:
The importance of what you believe lies in my being able to better understand where you're coming from, not in terms of what I believe. Quoting the bible as reference, does not seem to be any more effective as someone else quoting the gita, koran, sutras, etc. Different folks expressing their experiences.

The question you appear to be avoiding is whether or not you place you're beliefs in an exclusive category-the Truth. If you do, you can't help but dismiss the beliefs/experiences of others as being misguided or delusional. You may do so with great christian compassion, but you are still placing yourself in the same category as premies who believe they have found the one great truth in life. Not all christians take this viewpoint (most mainstream christians don't) but born-again folks do and so I wonder where you stand and why you're avoiding the issue.

Paul
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 03:13:34 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: Off the radar screen...
Message:
Hi Paul,

Thanks for the post.

I am not trying to avoid your question. If I understand your question correctly, I do believe in God, He is exclusive truth.
All goodness comes from Him. He loves all of us so much that He sent His only begotten Son, so that we may have eternal life.
I believe this is very good news. I also believe the only way to the Father is through the Son.

You wrote:
...If you do, you can't help but dismiss the beliefs/experiences of others as being misguided or delusional.
I believe that each one of us has a free will. We can and will choose to believe in that which we are convinced is true. This is why I believe it is important to carefully study the word of God. If we don't then it really just comes down to believing in some other human being to the extent of who can give us the best sell job. I think the potential for setting myself up for deceipt is very great in that scenario. And equally risky, is if I rely totally on my personel experience, for that is wrought with ups, downs, as dictated by wherever the wind is blowing. So I have chosen to understand and to know God with everything that I have available to me.

Paul for me it comes down to not focusing so much on the negative, but on the postive. Jesus' message was about salvation, and about love. That, doesn't imply being blind, nor does it imply not struggling.

I hope that is more clear to you. What is your relationship with God like?

GAGBWY

-gumby
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 08:52:48 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: Sin
Message:
Gumby:

By the way what is your defintion of sin?

Sin: the trigonometric ratio of the length of the side opposite an acute angle to the length of the hypotenuse.

-Scott
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 10:52:32 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Sin
Message:
Or if you're non mathematical it's doing that which you've been told you shouldn't do and enjoying it all the more because it's naughty.
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Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 at 00:30:29 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Sin
Message:
Hi Scott,

Not to get off on a tangent.:) Or, the gent went off to tan?

Does this mean that a cosine is one with sin?

GAGBWY

-gumby
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Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 at 19:27:51 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: Off the radar screen...
Message:
Hi Gumby,

Happy mother's day and all that. My mom's in from Toronto, as was my sister and family from Seattle. It's my mother's birthday as well. Two cards, two presents!

So, thanks for the 'sir' and for respecting my typo, 'ad'. I hate it when people ignore typos and default back to the conventional language. How's anything supposed to evolve that way? Oh, sorry, maybe you don't believe in that.. :)

Anyway, I won't quibble over Christian proselytizing terms and phrases. I'm no expert, I know that. But, more importantly, you said:

I am interested in feedback. If anyone, you of course included, wants to share whats going on inside, from a spiritual perspective, thats great. I view this as dicussion, communication, not really debate. I think debate has a *goal* in mind, i.e. lets crush gumby. Whereas discussing, communicating may actually have a gathering effect. Maybe we can reach a common understanding.

Gumby, this is really important: there's a big, fat difference between 'let's crush gumby' and let's crush gumby's idea.' I like you -- and not just because it's mother's day. You're a nice guy here and I bet you're like that in the 'real' world too. But, I also think being a born again Christian is silly. In fact, I hate that idea. Thus, I'm not sure what kind of 'common understanding' we could aim for. Can you?

Again, Happy Mother's day and a Happy Mother's day to everyone else reading this post!

Jim
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 00:16:18 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Off the radar screen...
Message:
Hi Jim,

Greetings. Glad you had a nice M-Day, and visit from your Mum. Greetings from gumby.

You wrote:
...
But, I also think being a born again Christian is silly. In fact, I hate that idea. Thus, I'm not sure what kind of 'common understanding' we could aim for. Can you?


You may be right about the common understanding. Maybe a good starting point might be to ask the question: When did you stop believing in God?

Just out of curiosity why did you say that 'I hate that idea' above? That's pretty strong language.

GAGBWY

-gumby
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 02:20:54 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: Off the radar screen...
Message:
Gumby,

I stopped believing in God a few years ago when I started reading evolutionary psychology and, in particular, Dawkins.

I used such strong language because that's how I feel. Believing in Jesus strikes me as embarrassingly unfounded as believing in Maharaji. I hate that idea too.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 01:44:28 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Off the radar screen...
Message:
Hi Jim,

Thanks for your post.

What of Dawkins have you read? Mt. Improbabale, or the Watchmaker?(?sp).

I am curious, what is Dawkins 'take home message'? Can you give a brief synopsis? Hope you are doing well. One other question: Have you ever lost a court case?

GAGBWY

-gumby
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 20:34:58 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Home
Message:
I began reading a new Journeys entry and found the introduction likening M to The Wizard of Oz (who was actually quite a sad, lonely man underneath the 'apparatus' - am I right?)

this part Dorothy, with her true desire to get home I really relate to. My whole image of how I finally found M. was that I was a seeker on the road, stumbling in confusion from one 'scene' to another...trying to find my True Home.

Look for home in many places...and then finally when I had given up hope, meeting a Stranger who told me there is someone who can help me...someone who can show me my True Home Inside.

The Stranger says there are Many Who Have Come Before to tell us this message and now One is Here Again, walking this earth. Living, remember, you cannot receive it from a past master. I don't know how many times M has likened religions to a restaurant where they give you a menu but no food.

So I am taken to hear this Master who tells me It's Within (and is humble; he says he's not the first to say this..many have said this before him...Krishna, Kabir, Ghibran, Mira (sp?), Rumi...

And he talks of a doorway through which you can go

Of course, you think 'knock and it shall be opened unto you'

also - 'ask and ye shall receive' 'seek and ye shall find' come to Mind.

On that last score, M says 'the thirsty have a way of finding the water and the water has a way of finding the thirsty'

Well I certainly was 'thirsty', I could relate to that image and I think most people on this planet today could relate to it.

The funny thing is, when I am in that state of emptiness and longing...I do seem to find...(God everywhere?)

So I think, okay What I am looking for is Within Inside of Me, yes of course. But how do I go Inside of Me?

And then you are told there is a Way (not meditation, a Way to Go Inside).

The Way, actually, because at first M said, well if you find water in the desert, why ask if there's any other water...but later he said he is the Only Master giving the Only Truth (words to that effect) in this World at this Time.

By the way...all the fine print will come later. My question is, if IT is within, why waste time with anything else? If mansions, jets and cars are not IT then why would you be seeking them...well of course they were given to you as gifts from your devotees (only I believe you let it be known what your requirements are....)

PS: no-one can take away from me what I HAVE gained and learned

I won't go on but thank you to the writer of the recent Journey entry and it's true, Dorothy did finally get home, and Toto too.
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 21:02:29 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Home
Message:
Anyone needing a breath of sweet, fresh air might try this site and listen to these downloadable files:

http://www.gangaji.org/audio/audioslo.htm

I know I sure did. The explosion of memory and emotion have been a little rough these last two days.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 09:29:57 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Gerry
Subject: Home
Message:
Dear Gerry,
You seemed 'at home' here right from the start. You fit right in. I guess because of that, I forget that you are a recent ex. Do you even think of yourself as an ex? Was/is your wife into BM also? You don't seem to have doubts about getting away from BM and so when I see you say you've had a rough couple of days I fell like I haven't given room for you in my mind, although I have a free foot!, to need nurturing. I am glad you feel comfortable expressing it here and hope that by now you are feeling better. I have been busy at job 2 and not much time for personal computer ventures so I am getting to this now that is is days old.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 12:49:08 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Home
Message:
Robyn, Robyn, Robyn,

Thanks for the foot offer, but you know how I feel about playing footsie, especially with guru types.

No, my wife is not and has never been a BMer.

My tenure with the BM was from January 1973 to about June of 1974. A long time ago.

I guess that reading the Forum simply brought up a lot of 'stuff' for me I hadn't realized was there. Stuff like anger, embarrassment, maybe even hate. But certainly not anything like longing for the little sicko.

I think the basic impulse to reconnect with something beyond our thoughts, feelings and bodies remain in us 'seeker' types. And there is a lot of fascinating information available. It's becoming less 'new age' and more 'let's explore this together as equals'.

That's why I've posted the quotes and links that I have. I will refrain from doing so in the future. I'm getting the impression that most of the 'regulars' on the Forum just don't have the stomach for it. I know I certainly did not want to hear anything that even remotely smacked of mysticism for at least 20 years after my entanglement with BM.

To Everybody: I apologize for my recent 'venting'. I know I sounded like a psycho, and I'm really not (I hope). I abhor violence and don't even kick my neighbors big ugly dog when he comes over to my yard for his, er, 'morning constitutional'. But then he always runs before I can get my boots on.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 13:51:55 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Gerry
Subject: You are fine!
Message:
Dear Gerry,
Sorry, now that you've retold your basic story, it sounds familiar. I hope you take no personal offense to my short memory! I haven't had time for the forum lately but have almost caught up on what I missed and didn't notice any exceptional venting on your part. Have at it, honey!
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 13:56:30 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: You are fine!
Message:
Robyn,
I think you're pretty fine too, short memory and cowboy included!
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 13:58:32 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: You are fine!
Message:
I think I may have caught you during real time! Are you coming to Portland? (hi Robyn,Too) Carol
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 14:10:35 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: You are fine!
Message:
Hi Carol,

I just sent you an e-mail...
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 15:53:06 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Home
Message:
... 'let's explore this together as equals'.

what could be wrong with that!
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 17:25:32 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: glyng@techline.com
To: Jude
Subject: Home
Message:
Jude,

I've found some websites you might be interested in reading. E-mail me so I don't clutter the Forum with them if you'd like to take a look..
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 17:28:47 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Home
Message:
Maybe others would like to know too?
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 19:29:57 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Gerry
Subject: Home
Message:
Hi Gerry -
I don't have a problem with you expressing anger. I think it's good. It's one of the things the forum is here for. (I don't think you sound like a psycho either!) I hope you'll feel comfortable enough to keep doing it.

As for posting quotes and links - you're right that many of the people here are turned off by that stuff (and you remember why too). There are people who post here who might be interested too, so please don't feel like you've been making a nuisance of yourself or anything. I tend to dislike it when people post long diatribes about this or that spiritual thing, but you've never done that, so I think it would be fine if you wanted to keep on doing so.

Robyn is right when she said that you fit right in here - I'm glad you are on the forum.
Katie
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 17:29:56 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: Home
Message:
By the way...all the fine print will come later. My question is, if IT is within, why waste time with anything else? If mansions, jets and cars are not IT then why would you be seeking them...well of course they were given to you as gifts from your devotees (only I believe you let it be known what your requirements are....)

This really isn't true. Most of the 'big stuff' BM has, like residences, planes and cars, were not just 'given' to him. He expressed a desire for them and then the means were found to 'give' them to him. They were not spontaneous gifts. Often, big fundraising campaigns had to be waged to get the money for these 'gifts,' not because the premies really wanted to give them to him, but because he said he wanted them. And when the premies were sending checks made out to 'Guru Maharaj Ji' to a post office box in Malibu, like I did every month while I was an ashram housefather, BM could get enough money to buy stuff he wanted himself, like a closet full of dozens of $5,000 suits. You don't even have to ask for it. Like Dennis Marciniak told me in 1980, at that time, BM's personal expenses for residences, etc, not including touring was $300,000 per month. You can satisfy a lot of 'desires' with that kind of money.
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 06:35:20 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Home
Message:
Holy dooley - heaven on earth don't come cheap.
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 13:00:09 (EST)
From: david f.
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: M's message and wealth
Message:
For as long as I've been aware of M, there have been people, including myself at one time, that defended his accumulation of wealth, with something like, 'but he's a perfect master, and he's not attached to this wealth, and if people only realized who he is, they wouldn't care about the rolls royces, and would in fact give even more to him.' Sound familiar?

So, if he's so unattached, and bringing peace to the world is his primary directive, then it seems he should give it all up, because:

1. his wealth is obviously a BIG stumbling block in people hearing his message of peace, and therefore he should give it up if he truely wants to spread peace in the world, and

2. it would obvioulsy make no difference to him because he's so unattached.

It would be interesting to hear from some current premies on this, as well as the rest of us un-perfect people. bye, david f.
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 13:18:55 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: david f.
Subject: Satsang
Message:
All right now let me dust off my old premie hat before I put it on...okay, there...now then, even though I am officially an ex, I still think I can put on my premie hat and speak sincerely to you as if I was in fact still a premie.

Your first mistake is to think that 'peace on earth' actually means something like 'peace on earth'. The Perfect Master does not come to accomplish something so mundane and obvious as establish peace on earth.

His work goes deeper than that. AFter all, there is not peace on earth because people are not at peace. Why are they not at peace? Because they are in their minds! They are attached to their concepts of how they think everythng is, like, for instance, their idea that money is important!

So, the Perfect Master comes not to bring peace to the earth, but to individuals, and he can only do that by challenging our concepts of how we think everything should be, of how we think a Perfect Master should behave, etc.

It is because the Perfect Master loves us so very much that he refuses to go along with our ridiculous ideas of how things should be. Like, for some reason, we have this idea that a spiritual person should not have a lot of money! Why shouldn't a spiritual person have the nicest things in the world?

We, the confused people of this world who have created so much war and confusion and pollution, think that we know how the Perfect Master should behave! Isn't that outrageous?!?

Why don't we all just grow up and quit pointing our fingers at M's possessions and listen to his simple message of truth!

The energy that moves the universe move you! Come and realize!
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 00:53:39 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Satsang
Message:
premie John,
Thank you. I am completely programmed now (snicker)
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 12:40:36 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A question
Message:
I have a question to all those who feel aggreived especially because Maharaji hasn't apologised for past errors or explained why he changed course.
If he did apologise and explain to some degree of satisfaction.......what then?
Would all be forgiven?
Would this site pack up?
What would you do for that extra 'stimulation'?
Really ....would that be the end of it ?
OR ?
Just asking?
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 13:10:55 (EST)
From: david f.
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: A question
Message:
Keith,
I for one don't give a rip if he apologizes or not. I simply have no interest in him because there is nothing genuine or truthful about him, about his teaching, his marrage, or organization. My interest here is in communicating with people who have had a shared experience, and perhaps extend friendship to those willing to question things that aren't true. Besides, its fun. In other words, my life is not on hold until M does 'the right thing.'

best wishes, david f.
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 13:44:52 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: A question
Message:
I have a question to all those who feel aggreived especially because Maharaji hasn't apologised for past errors or explained why he changed course. If he did apologise and explain to some degree of satisfaction.......what then? Would all be forgiven?

Interesting question, Keith, because I was just thinking about this issue while commuting this morning. It's something that I have examined my own feelings about pretty consistently since being involved in the forum. That's only been for about a year, and I admit that part of my reaction is more emotional than rational, but when I boil it down this is my view:

I view it as a situation similar to the South African Truth Commission in relation to addressing the abuses under the apartheid system. The Commission gives amnesty to perpetrators in most cases if they come forward the tell the truth about what really happened. The South Africans believe that by doing this, the country can heal from the damage that was done and can move forward as a more united society. If perpetrators refuse to come forward and tell the truth by some certain date, they can be prosecuted for crimes against humanity. In the service of justice, it's most important that the truth come out. It's less important, in their view, that punishment be inflicted.

For me, because BM was absolutely everything to me for a decade, and because my dedication to him involved a very significant period in my life, it would also give me some closure if he would at least acknowledge my feelings, admit that I have the right to have them, and give his side of the story, including taking responsbility for what happened to us. Instead, it's my understanding that he either makes fun or or ridicules people like me, or just ignores the possibility that some premies got hurt by his system of ashrams, total dedication, and holding himself up as god, or he blames us for causing our own problems. This is unacceptable in my view, just in terms of basic human decency.

Until he does that, until he addresses this problem,my sense of justice requires that I be a witness to what happened to a lot of people like me in his cult. I refuse to let him just paper it over, blame Mata Ji, or pretend like it never happened.

If that did happen,(taking responsibility and apologizing) I certainly would feel less like I needed to do that. But in either case, I doubt the forum would go away, because there are thousands of ex-premies and soon-to-be-ex-premies out there, who apparently feel the need to connect with people who know what being in and coming out of a BM's cult is like, so I think the forum will stay around. Plus, I'm sure you can see that in just a year, more and more people are discovering and getting involved in the forum and the website and I think it's reached critical mass and will only grow. Now there is even a forum in French. I suspect Spanish will be next. I don't think there is any stopping this. However, if BM DOES ever get some integrity and apologize, I suspect the tone would change and the growth might slow. But who knows?
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 13:56:17 (EST)
From: mona lisa
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: A question
Message:
Well-said JW. If he does ever speak up on the issues to make amends in any way, it would have to be on video or public presentation to be believed.
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 13:56:59 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: A question en espanol
Message:
I don't know much Spanish but I want very much to learn it and am going to be studying it next semester. It would help me a lot if I contributed to an effort for a Spanish forum, plus it would be a good feeling at the same time. Should I address this to Brian or is someone else looking into this?
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 14:18:52 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: A question en espanol
Message:
Hi Selena - yes, you should talk to Brian about it. He is still looking for someone who is very fluent in Spanish to spearhead the effort, but I am sure that this person - when and if found - will need all the help they can get.
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 18:24:57 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: A question
Message:
Very well said, JW.
So well said, in fact, that I feel outraged for the first time ever about this. I have friends who are still premies who have gotten madder at Maharaji than I ever have. Some of them are in Miami right now.

Before my alcoholic father died, he apologized to me. I forgave him, but he couldn't forgive himself. Also, I was the beneficiary of his life insurance policy. Although I am not very materialistic, I have to admit, the money was nice. In fact, it went a long way toward making me feel that he had made the best amends he could.

As fucked up as I was during the time I was a premie, I believe I'd REALLY PISSED OFF if I had lived in the ashram and been celibate. Spending 12 years or so kissing Maharaji's tootsies, believing him to be god, and devoting all my energy to getting to festivals--I guess I just figured out: I got ripped off.
eb
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Date: Fri, May 08, 1998 at 20:29:42 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: eb and JW
Subject: A question
Message:
Very interesting response JW.
I'm in a digesting mood so I'll just say thanks.
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 00:20:09 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: A question
Message:
Yes, the celibacy part is hard to think about sometimes. I usually don't. It tends to make one crazy.

eb, what do you mean that premies you know have gotten mad at BM? Mad for what? And have they told you this?

One of the cardinal tenants when I was a premie was that you NEVER directed any criticism at BM. I used to get mad at DLM, EV, other premies, etc. That was where I deflected my anger. Pure displacement behavior. But it wasn't until sometime after I left the cult that I could even begin to direct my anger at the true cause of the problem and the person ultimately responsible.

Yes, I heard there was a guru-program in Miami happening around now. I feel so fortunate that I don't have to go to one of those things.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 12:19:58 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Mad at BM
Message:
Good morning JW.

In response to your question about premies getting mad at BM, within the past year I had a conversation with a friend who stated that she had been really angry at BM because she left her husband (back in the 70's), gave away a lot of possessions and then had a nervous breakdown. Premies around then treated her as though she was 'just crazy' and 'in her mind.' She's been in the process of healing herself through lots of different conventional and non-conventional methods since then... just did a sweat lodge this past weekend. She still goes to see BM when he's close and wanted to go to Australia last year. She says she gets a big hit when she sees him and doesn't look at the rest of the garbage.

Another premie I knew told me about attempting suicide by looking at a picture of BM and saying, 'I'll see you soon Motherf____' and then downing a bottle of seconal. His rage was about the loss of a relationship and his inability to fit into the premie community. He lived through the episode and chose to see it as BM's grace. Still practices K.

When I was in Denver staying at the Divine Shelter, lots of premies were exhibiting angry behavior toward each other rather than the source of their problems. Being the quintessential co-dependent, I learned early to take the blame whenever something went wrong for me. If I wasn't having a blissful experience, that was my own fault. If I was, the credit went to BM. The way things are now, with these benign videos and no real community connection, I can't imagine anyone getting mad at BM.
eb
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 00:48:45 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: A question
Message:
Keith,
I actually wondered this once, and then I came to my senses. Maharaji's not going to apologize. What were we thinking??

I was meaning to ask you a few questions, while you are here:

1) Get any answers to your questions yet?
2) I thought you weren't coming back until Brian left? What changed your mind?
3) Where are you at these days with this M thing? On or off the fence?

Have a good weekend, Keith. VP
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 04:15:40 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: response to vp.
Message:
VP..you asked;

1) Get any answers to your questions yet?
2) I thought you weren't coming back until Brian left? What changed your mind?
3) Where are you at these days with this M thing? On or off the fence?

1) I have spoken to a number of people within EV.
The simple answer is 'no'...I have not really been given answers to the questions about M's past and his attitudes towards ex-premies, etc.
To be honest ...I was so appalled at Brians treatment of me, and the meek support I recieved by those who should have known better (including details that I have chosen not to post)..that I felt little inclination towards wading into difficult territory for the benefit of the forum. And my own need to know is tempered by patience. I will have an opportunity in two weeks from now to ask some questions of a number of higher profile reps from EV...at a full day meeting.
2) Well, I simply changed my mind. I was so serious about ending my association with this forum that I had written a farewell poem ...that I could not post because Brian had me blocked for many days.
On reflection I felt that I should not allow one person dictate (sorry....but I have little respect for Brian) but if it comes to a show-down we all know who wields the power.(although this new commitee is a welcome development). Does this make sense?
Anyway ...life moves on .
3)Where am I with this M thing? VP...I don't know in some absolute way(and maybe I never will) but some things are getting clearer.
Oh dear ...do I really have to express about this now , when I'm not feeling ready?
Of course not , but fundamentally I AM still sitting on the fence...;after-all I am not sitting an exam here. It's a profoundly significant process that goes way beyond the issue of M (for me). You could say I am re-evaluating my entire perspective about many inter-related issues.
One issue (that Bruce touched on in a recent post) is about separating M as an issue from everything else that goes on around him.
I do not mean to suggest that there is no overlap....but there is an important demarcation line as well .....that I am trying to understand. I need to know M independently, so to speak, of everything that revolves around him.
Early days yet! And there are other important things happening in my life.
Regards, Keith.
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 05:52:35 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: hi Vacol
Message:
Keith,
Possibly the majority of the people who actually write on the forum are either pretty resolutely against, or pro Maharaji. However there are probably many many more lurkers, who like you are not prepared to either wholly dismiss or unreservedly embrace M. So I for one think that your standpoint, from atop the fence, is indeed interesting and absolutely relevant. I can relate.
As regards your previous spate of posts, I think you went a bit over the top and basically just posted too much stuff. That is always annoying to me, whoever it is. I personally have little time to wade through all the many posts that are kind of off-topic or over-reactive slanging matches etc. I do though, because I am interested to read the more insightful posts that are there.
Welcome back
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 11:03:30 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Keith
Subject: response to Keith
Message:
Few people are going to understand the problems facing whoever looks after a site. That I take the responsibility seriously and am aware of the number of people who use and depend on this forum only increases the pressure on me when I have to make a decision that will affect them. That comes with the job and it's just the way it is, so I try not to anguish too much over each decision. But I've spent a lot of time anguishing over some.

This forum served my emotional needs for a year while I sorted through various feelings/beliefs regarding Maharaji and Knowledge. It no longer serves those needs - I now serve the forum's needs/requirements. That's a big shift, and it can't be seen or understood entirely from the side I stood on before. I also accept that.

My purpose in blocking your posts was that I knew I needed to block Petrou's posts, and (based on your previous lack of support for the job I do and the decisions I have to make in doing it) I felt that you would not allow the discussion thread that followed to go without your personal input. I didn't want it, and felt pretty fed-up. So I blocked you at the same time.

When the code was in place (that was a weekend out of my life and didn't cost you anything, so I would not be surprised that you don't respect the time I put into it), I limited your posts to 5 per day, and Petrou's to 1 per day. His is also limited to 1000 characters in length. Yours were not limited in length below the configured maximum for everyone else.

I then braced myself for you and/or him to storm back in with denouncing posts about the dictator who takes responsibility for the forum you use to denounce him. That didn't happen, and since you seem to want to make Maharaji and Knowledge the topic of your posts I see no reason not to lift the restriction entirely. I did that this morning.

Petrou has chosen to not post, so I have no way to weigh his intent. Until he does post something with some content, I see no need to lift the other restriction. His is the only one remaining.

I'm sorry that you don't respect me. However, that is not my problem. I have little respect for your having taken the time to send email in defense of your position to others who post here that was meant as an attempt to undercut my ability to function here effectively. You sent me none, other than a request to lift the block when Petrou slipped through the bars.

As for the committee, that was something that I implimented to help me make the decisions that are hardest to make. As long as one person takes on the responsiblity for a site, that site will be a dictatorship. Some will view it as a benevolent dictatorship. Others won't.

We all do know who wields the power. What we all don't know is what is involved in the responsibilty shouldered that the power flows from. We may never know, and most don't care one way or the other as long as the responsibility has been shouldered by someone else.

For what it's worth, welcome back Keith.
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Date: Sat, May 09, 1998 at 16:15:27 (EST)
From: kEITH
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: response to Keith
Message:
Brian,
I welcome what I feel is an altogether more sensitive and respectful post.
Let me make one thing clear.
When I referred to not respecting you ....I meant what I percieved as your general attitude.....not your undoubted dedication and hard labour towards the site itself.
And as far as your attitude is concerned I am open to a change of perspective.
It helps when we really begin to talk to each other as two human beings.
Personally I hate these labels of premie and ex-premie.
I for one feel outside of both these labels.....I don't fit into a 'group'.
Outside of my wife there are very few 'premies' that I can have really open discussions with.....although I am hoping that will change.
Okay....I appreciate you welcoming me back....and that you have lifted the restrictions.
As Anon said in his post above(thanks for the post Anon) I did tend to go overboard for a while back then.....something I'm reflecting about at this time.
It felt like a type of war-zone and I was Arjuna (perhaps) fighting the battle of truth against ignorence.
It occurs to me that you ,Jim,and all the other souls who post here probably feel the same way.
Anyway, Brian ...for what it's worth ...I'm willing to drop 'arms' and say truce.
Regards Keith.
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 15:18:30 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: kEITH
Subject: response to Keith
Message:
Dear Keith -
I just wanted to tell you that I thought both your post and Brian's post were thoroughly decent. Thank you. I am not sure if Brian will respond (you have to put his name in the title if it is really imperative that he responds - he doesn't always have time to read the forum), but I am sure he appreciates it as well.

Regards from Katie

P.S. By the way, I personally prefer writing to you as Keith. (I was relieved, however, to find out that you didn't actually spell it 'Kieth'!)
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 23:18:57 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: kEITH
Subject: response to Keith
Message:
The people on this forum are unwitting (and probably under-willing) guinea pigs in a way. I have never been in charge of anything before. Certainly nothing even CLOSE the the impact that this site has on many people. I went from being a supportive ex to being the webmaster with one email from the former webmaster. I've been blundering around ever since trying to find some sense of balance in how I perceive myself and how I impact others here.

There is a line between being protective of the forum and being possesive of it. I try to keep tabs on just where I am in relation to that invisible line, and Katie helps me with honest criticism and advice.

But I blunder around there at times too.

I'm not sure why I've been less than supportive of you on the forum, and I suspect there's no good justifiable reason for it. Just part of my own growth I guess. I'm sorry we've stepped on each other's toes as we have, and I'll make a conscious effort to view you for what you are - someone just like me who is just now beginning to struggle with questions I've already resolved in my own self.

I'm interested in the outcome of your upcoming encounter with EV mucky-mucks. But I don't hold out any hope for straight answers from them. They will probably stick to pre-approved responses to questions.
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Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 at 08:53:47 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: response to Keith/Anon.
Message:
Keith,
Sorry that I was spelling your name wrong before. (I thought that you just had a unique spelling until I saw your post to Jim here recently)

Of course, no one has to talk about anything that they don't want to/aren't ready to discuss. I was being curious. That meeting with EV has really piqued my interest. Hope you will post what you find out.

I have a lot of respect for Brian. He works very hard and takes his job here seriously. I respect and admire that. Without Brian and his hard work, there is no forum. I just hope you know that he is the man behind your opportunity to share and grow here. Not like he needs/wants a following-ha!- but it's always nice to be thankful and gracious when someone is doing us a favor.

I know that Anon is right when he says there are lots of lurkers like you...I know a couple of lurkers myself. I like reading about your struggle with all of this and the other hearfelt posts from Anon and others, too. But, Anon and Keith, I also like the off-topic subjects. They show that we are real people who can enjoy other parts of this reality called life--not just ex-guru followers. The forum is about being ex-guru followers so that is most relevant. The fact that we are getting on with our lives and that we have other things to contribute, too, is also very relevant. Off-topic posts afford a chance to learn a bit more about the others here and to have a bit of fun from time to time. Just my opinion. I like reading as many posts as I can and don't consider it wading. I am a pretty fast reader ( but nowhere NEAR as fast as Katie!) Enjoy this day, VP
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Date: Sun, May 10, 1998 at 10:54:29 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: off-topic posts
Message:
Hi VP - I enjoy reading the off-topic posts too, probably for the same reasons you do. Also, some of the 'off-topic' posts deal with real problems that people have and would like help with (like the thread about OCD, ADD, and other disorders below). I consider that worthwhile.

As you mentioned, I am a very fast reader, and I'm also able to scan posts quickly to see if I want to read them or not, so that helps a lot when there's a lot of posts to be read. I try and mark my REALLY off topic posts 'off-topic' in the subject heading so people who need to save time can skip them. Hope that helps all the people who'd like to stay on-topic!
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 01:04:56 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Q&A session
Message:
'I will have an opportunity in two weeks from now to ask some questions of a number of higher profile reps from EV...at a full day meeting.'

Keith, I don't get this. How did you get an audience with these people? Can anyone do this? Is this during a local program or is this at a scheduled M event? Is this something new or does this happen often? I am sorry that I am asking so many questions, but I am very curious and would like this explained-how this Q&A session works. Mr. Ex, if you know of this, please answer also.

Thanks, VP
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 02:45:57 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Q&A session
Message:
VP,
There is what is called these days a participation meeting. Officially 6 hours duration.
If there is not time to ask my questions during the official 6 hours I intend to target someone for an evenings
dinner and chat session.
I would prefer to not say who will be present at this meeting.
Meetings like this seem to happen a few times a year.
I hope that answers your query.
Regards Keith
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 10:54:47 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Q&A session
Message:
Yes, thank you. I was also curious as to how long these participation meetings have been taking place. (You may not know this, that is why I was asking Mr. Ex for an answer, too.) VP
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Date: Mon, May 11, 1998 at 12:56:48 (EST)
From: Mr Ex
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Q&A session: sssssshhhhhhh
Message:
Nothing special about them I guess.
They usually invite an instructor, sometimes rawat's brother
(dharampal/raja) to talk a little bit (an hour or so)
show some nice new videos
give some information about needs
maybe some Q&A about whatever is hot in EV
maybe some information about EV’s organization.
Lots of 'satsang', inspiration, and mind-cleaning.
Basically a warm premie atmosphere
nice warm environment,
all your friends there.
My suggestion : go have a cool beer during the 1st
break.
It’s part of what’s necessary to keep all the premies
‘together’, let them express what they feel, their questions,
so that they don’t feel different.
Basic group dynamics.
If you are too tough with the speaker, you might
get a personal interview .... or they’ll invite you to leave
because there are so many premies who’d like to hear something
more inspiring....
You might start a revolution if you want to, perfect occasion,
like what they did in south America some years ago.
I’d really love to have some details .......
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 08:47:44 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Q&A session: sssssshhhhhhh
Message:
Thanks, Mr. Ex,
That's about what I thought, but I am a bit predisposed to being cynical about this stuff (lately) as you may have gathered. :)
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 12:00:32 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Keith
Subject: A question
Message:
Dear Keith,
An honest, heartfelt apology goes a long way. At least when my mom apologized for years of abuse to me and my 4 sisters, it helpe more than I can express. I would be a start but in that choice of honesty, for BM anyway, it would be the beginning of making amends of trying to set things right, a vow of poverty would be a good starting point. I don't see much sence is continuing this fantasy since I see no chance of it coming to pass. I never thought my mom would though either.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 14:06:48 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: A question
Message:
Robyn,
My father could not apologize to my sister and I about his past abuse before he died. He wanted us to focus on the present, dismissing the past as, just the past. We knew he loved us even though he did harmful and selfish things. He was a very nurturing and loving person with a sick side. I can see a connection to my wishful thinking about M and wanting to believe I was loved even when evidence seemed contrary. Carol
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 15:57:17 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: A question
Message:
It's a complex question isn't it?
I wonder what the 'thinking' is about this issue?
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Date: Tues, May 12, 1998 at 17:52:40 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jude
Subject: A question
Message:
Dear Jude and Carol,
I guess I'd have to admit that once I'd moved out and on my own I began to see what caused my mother to behave the way she did and I really believed she loved us in her own sick way. The problem was that she denied that any abuse had ever taken place and that she continued to be retched, doing spitful things and trying to start trouble between the sisters, her children so it was on going. I think we've all come a long way and continue to seek and grow and really, what more can we want! I am so glad you both have joined the group.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 00:13:02 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Robyn
Subject: A question
Message:
I was treated abusively by both my parents, and so was my sister. My father apologized to both of us, but he didn't remember what he was apologizing for because he was drunk when he did it. My mom can't remember a lot of what she did either, but she won't really apologize. She keeps implying that a lot of what went on because of her drinking was us kid's fault - that she wasn't to blame because we were just difficult teenagers. I think she can't admit that she did any of that stuff because it would make her feel too guilty. Maybe M feels this same way - who knows?

Anyway, I know that both my parents 'loved' us, to the extent to which they were able, but what does that mean? I used to get really upset when my mom kept telling me she loved me but would treat me abusively. This implied that it was MY fault that she treated me this way - like somehow I deserved it. I think this is a trap that people fall into with Maharaji - anything good is to his credit, anything bad is because it's the premie's fault.

I would think a lot more of Maharaji if he apologized - or even TOOK RESPONSIBILITY - for some of the things that happened and/or were done in his name in the past. I don't think, however, that this would erase the hurt that people have suffered, and I think that this site would still be necessary so that people could try and heal those wounds.
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Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 at 05:08:23 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: A question
Message:
I have a question to all those who feel aggreived especially because Maharaji hasn't apologised for past errors or explained why he changed course.
If he did apologise and explain to some degree of satisfaction.......what then?


Then it might save many people many years of self-doubt and help them return to the road fully as living, sentient human beings.

Would this site pack up? I hope not, it is a great place to come for some real satsang, i.e. true communication.

What would you do for that extra 'stimulation'? What does that mean?

Really ....would that be the end of it ? The end of what?
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