Gail -:- Hey, Jim--I'm suing--Anyone Else -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:18:27 (EDT)

__ Katie -:- Lawsuits suck, IMHO -:- Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 20:18:19 (EDT)

__ CD -:- Re: Hey, Jim--I'm suing--Anyone Else -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 21:44:17 (EDT)

__ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Hey, Jim--I'm suing--Anyone Else -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 01:30:01 (EDT)

__ __ __ CD -:- Re: Hey, Jim--I'm suing--Anyone Else -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 02:01:22 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Hey, Jim--I'm suing--Anyone Else -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 22:00:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Get real, Chris. Just get real -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 18:47:13 (EDT)

__ __ Surreal Simon -:- Re: Hey, Jim--I'm suing--Anyone Else -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 21:52:22 (EDT)

__ __ __ CD -:- Cool Simon -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 22:49:43 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Surreal Simon -:- Re: Cool Simon -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 10:35:19 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- CD, you're too old for soothers -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 22:55:25 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- Chris Dickey goes deep -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 21:47:00 (EDT)

__ __ __ CD -:- Re: Chris Dickey goes deep -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 22:57:51 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Chris Dickey goes deep -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 23:04:25 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ CD -:- hobbies -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 23:16:02 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Answer the question for once, Chris (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 23:19:16 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Re: Answer the question for once, Chris (nt) -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 00:11:00 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- And you STILL won't answer it!! -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 00:17:47 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- And The Defense Calls CD -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 13:10:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Re: And you STILL won't answer it!! -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 00:21:47 (EDT)

__ JW -:- What Jurisdiction, Gail? -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 14:14:28 (EDT)

__ __ Gail -:- Re: What Jurisdiction, Gail? -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 17:10:37 (EDT)

__ __ __ JW -:- Re: What Jurisdiction, Gail? -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 02:33:25 (EDT)

__ __ Jethro -:- Maybe not JW! -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 14:19:58 (EDT)

__ __ __ JW -:- Re: What Jurisdiction, Gail? -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 14:23:34 (EDT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- May I join? -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:22:39 (EDT)

__ __ Grace -:- What Grounds? -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:40:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ Know It All -:- Re: What Grounds? -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 14:10:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ premie slave -:- you mean like if we volunteered at Rainbow Grocery? -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 15:20:41 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: you mean like if we volunteered at Rainbow Grocery? -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 02:35:29 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Deerskin -:- Re: What Grounds? -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 13:45:47 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Deerskin -:- Re: What Grounds? -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 13:35:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- And What About the Plane? -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 02:39:04 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ CD -:- Re: What Grounds? -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 21:37:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Surreal Simon -:- Re: What Grounds? -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 21:47:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: What Grounds? -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 14:18:27 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ DUO -:- Re: What Grounds? -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 19:21:26 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Know It All -:- Lawsuit against church for fraud upheld on appeal -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 20:05:42 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bonnie -:- Did we ever find out what -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 20:33:23 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ duo -:- Re: Did we ever find out what -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 13:29:12 (EDT)

__ __ Fly -:- Careful, the Lord Of The Universe is also.... -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:37:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ Fly -:- ...or could that be... -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:52:38 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Guess Who -:- Care for a pissing contest, Rob? -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 22:49:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Keep Guessing -:- Re: Care for a pissing contest, Rob? -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 18:07:44 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Blackdog -:- Where do you want to come from today???? -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 23:10:31 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Ron Leech -:- Re: Care for a pissing contest, Rob? -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 19:05:08 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Paul Hogan -:- Re: Care for a pissing contest, Rob? -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 01:37:38 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Miguel -:- Re: Care for a pissing contest, Rob? -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 19:22:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Guess Who II -:- Re: Care for a pissing contest, Rob? -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 11:08:25 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Guess Who II -:- Above message does not pertain to Rob ;-) -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 04:03:26 (EDT)

__ __ __ Marianne -:- Please discuss offline -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:49:53 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ JW -:- Anything new? -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:53:53 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Fly -:- relocating...... -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:56:00 (EDT)

Jim -:- Hm, I wonder who's next? -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 11:18:00 (EDT)

__ JW -:- Slight Correction -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 11:31:43 (EDT)

__ __ URL -:- You're a sad case JW -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 20:00:28 (EDT)

__ __ __ A Premie -:- Re: You're a sad case JW -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 06:40:09 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Pauline Premie -:- I Am Here, Oh My Brother -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 03:09:44 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ red -:- Re: I Am Here, Oh My Brother -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 21:58:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ JW -:- And You're a Cult Case -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 23:42:49 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: And You're a Cult Case -:- Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 12:32:27 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Is this true? -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 19:32:12 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- That is SOOOOO funny!! -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 20:19:03 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ URL -:- Yeah, a lot of quality people -- ask your ex buddies (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 20:32:43 (EDT)

__ __ Marianne -:- SF Board of Supes -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:36:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ JW -:- Yeah, but do you love da' Mayor? -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:48:57 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: Yeah, but do you love da' Mayor? -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:58:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: Yeah, but do you love da' Mayor? -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 14:08:45 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: Yeah, but do you love da' Mayor? -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 14:20:41 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: Yeah, but do you love da' Mayor? -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 14:29:12 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- URL took your bait, JW -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 20:12:16 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- Golden Way, and more -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 10:34:48 (EDT)

__ Grace -:- 1997 Words to Golden Way (New & Improved Version) -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:34:08 (EDT)

__ __ JW -:- Planting Holy Seed????? -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 02:56:40 (EDT)

__ It makes me wanna puke.... -:- Draw away the veil true lover and plant your Holy Seed? -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 10:54:30 (EDT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Have your barf bags ready! -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 11:54:59 (EDT)

__ __ __ Enough -:- Re: Have your barf bags /FOCUSready! -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 04:19:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- FOCUS: still played -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 06:43:27 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Subliminal FOCUS: still played -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 16:01:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Enough -:- Re: FOCUS: still played -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 07:31:26 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Re: FOCUS: still played -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 09:09:09 (EDT)

__ __ Perry Mason -:- Exhibit One -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 11:37:12 (EDT)

__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- You cannot stop working. You are under contract. -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 16:11:38 (EDT)

__ __ __ Susan -:- Re: Exhibit One -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 12:06:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ more -:- Re: Exhibit One -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 15:45:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ more -:- Re: Exhibit One -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 15:54:02 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ more -:- Re: Exhibit One -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 16:14:35 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- More evidence -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 12:52:07 (EDT)

Darsai -:- Hope -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 08:57:17 (EDT)

The general Manager -:- cults -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 06:17:49 (EDT)

__ Richard -:- Yeah..Pretty much -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:23:16 (EDT)

__ __ CD -:- Re: Yeah..Pretty much -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 00:17:49 (EDT)

__ __ __ Richard -:- Re: Yeah..Pretty much -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 05:18:40 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Very funny -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 00:20:29 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ CD -:- Re: fun bunny -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 00:25:36 (EDT)

__ JW -:- Re: cults -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:14:20 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- Almost -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 11:27:45 (EDT)

__ Joey -:- Re: cults -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 07:47:11 (EDT)

__ __ Shp -:- Re: cults -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 11:11:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ Joey -:- response to Shp -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 23:44:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: response to Joey -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 15:43:42 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Final response to Shp -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 02:20:02 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Reply to Joey -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 12:43:43 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Reply to Joey -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 10:46:18 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: Reply to Joey -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 12:53:47 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Joey -:- PS: to Shp -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 00:54:50 (EDT)

__ __ Grace -:- Re: cults -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 09:02:49 (EDT)

__ __ __ Joey -:- response to Grace -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 00:41:55 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Your ole pal, Nim!!:::)) -:- PS: to Grace -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 01:04:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Your ole pal Suzanne -:- Peculiar Name -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 12:10:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Nim -:- Re: Peculiar Name -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 13:29:01 (EDT)

__ __ __ URL -:- Re: cults -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 18:32:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Joey -:- response to URL -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 01:41:59 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ General manager -:- Are cults bad? -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 23:31:07 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- GM get real...do you really know anything about the Khrishas? (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 23:39:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ GM -:- Re: GM get real...do you really know anything about the Khrishas? (nt) -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 00:08:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's stupid -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 00:10:33 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ GM -:- Do you really won't to hurt me -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 01:20:30 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ GM -:- Re: GM get real...do you really know anything about the Khrishas? (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 23:55:51 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- here is a link to read about the life of children in the Hare K cult -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 01:42:28 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ GM -:- Re: here is a link to read about the life of children in the Hare K cult -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 04:47:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- I guess I don't -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 10:30:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ GM -:- Live and let live -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 20:15:22 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Your logic is faulty -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 12:31:43 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ GM -:- My Lour logic is faulty-nothin' new there -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 04:20:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Re: My Lour logic is faulty-nothin' new there -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 11:44:09 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ GM -:- My logic is faulty-nothin' new there -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 20:13:06 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Re: My logic is faulty-nothin' new there -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 23:38:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- And yours is right on Susan! Great post!! -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 13:06:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: Live and let live -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 11:35:44 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ GM -:- Re: Live and let live -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 04:46:00 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Enough already Shp!! -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 11:53:12 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- TIME OUT: THIS IS WHERE JOEY CALLS GM SHP IN ERROR. -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 17:21:03 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ GM -:- Shoosh, your givin' me a headache -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 20:18:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ Richard -:- Re: Descriptions -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:26:44 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Grace -:- Richard, I'm an ex (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:36:02 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Re: Richard, I'm an ex (nt) -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 05:23:16 (EDT)

__ Robyn -:- Re: cults -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 06:47:40 (EDT)

__ __ GM -:- Re: cults -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 04:57:41 (EDT)

__ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: cults -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 10:04:34 (EDT)

Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:18:27 (EDT) From: Gail Email: None To: All Subject: Hey, Jim--I'm suing--Anyone Else Message:

want to join in. We can make it a class action suit. Well, I've decided to sue the Lard of the Universe. I will send you photocopies of my donation receipts for the 24.5 years I was involved. It's a start. I'll split it with you. Of course there are the punitive damages--YOU KNOW--staying with a cult because the Lord is running it, even though you hate the whole thing. Anyway, 1.25 years after the cult, I'm not much better. I'll call you this weekend if you're around.

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Date: Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 20:18:19 (EDT) From: Katie Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: Gail Subject: Lawsuits suck, IMHO Message:

Dear Gail - I'm probably starting to sound like a broken record here on the forum, but I don't advise ANYONE to undertake a lawsuit such as the one you're describing. I say this because of personal experience. My brother, sister, and I sued two doctors for malpractice after they refused to perform an emergency tracheotomy on my father during complications after throat surgery, which resulted in my father ending up alive but brain-dead and comatose. I did NOT want to undertake this lawsuit, but my brother and sister both did, so I wanted to support them. As it happens, we won the case (although the cash award was very small). The only good thing about our victory is that perhaps other doctors in the state we sued in will think twice before refusing treatment. However, I can honestly say that the lawsuit was extremely stressful for all of us, especially directly following on my father's death. It dragged on for over two years, required a lot of time and heartache, and the actual trial was awful. My family was potential witnesses, so did not have to hear all the testimony (thank god), but having to hear the summation was bad enough. Worse yet, my brother, who had hoped to feel some kind of vindication after the guilty verdict, did NOT find closure, and is still angry about the whole thing. I recommend that anyone seeking a legal remedy for injustice watch the movie (or better yet, READ THE BOOK) 'A Civil Action', which is based on a true story. Both the book and movie mirrored my experience with lawsuits - and especially a lawsuit in which my 'side' was definitely in the right. If you decide to go ahead with this, Gail, I wish you luck, but I did want to put my two cents in. IMHO, a lawsuit is an extremely emotionally draining and traumatic experience, and not, in my experience, a good way to find healing. Take care, Gail - Love from Katie

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 21:44:17 (EDT) From: CD Email: None To: Gail Subject: Re: Hey, Jim--I'm suing--Anyone Else Message:

>Anyway, 1.25 years after the cult, I'm not much better. Who is really responsible for that? Are your goals reasonable? You are not drowning in Mexico, just wondering about your life like everyone else who will admit it. Aim at something worthwhile and enjoy yourself. CD

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 01:30:01 (EDT) From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: CD Subject: Re: Hey, Jim--I'm suing--Anyone Else Message:

lets see he requires 'devotion and faith' in a belief system -failure is for lack of trying, God who is all merciful and all knowing wants only those who try real hard to achieve some mythical status. He will forsake all others who do not follow him, serve him and donate to him at thier 'option' One day CD you may realise the most wonderful, most beautiful truth, and that truth is you unfortunately wasted years of your life chasing a goal that is always just out of reach, that your were a member of a cult, and that membership can have after affects on a human being that are long lasting and painful. That you are a VICTIM and the perpetrator is the responsible party not the VICTIMS This is Ex-premie.org, most of us here left the cult and some of the current members come around and complain about how we slam M. Well we don't like what he did to us, allowed to happen to us (by ommsion of leadership if he didn't know). We aren't over at EJL complaining or posting in the open discussion group, we don't go to satsang and disrupt it, yet you and your buddies act as though we were standing up in your church and slamming your god. We are slamming your master but we are doing it in our house. You are welcome to post all the untruths about us over at EJL, but you are not being forced to come here. I wou;ld rather spend time healing with other victims then having useless discussions with you and URL and the rest of the premies whose service it is to come over here. If Gail wants to sue more power to her. Personally I don't like what I view from the outside as the prevailance of 'legal lotto' in this country. But I have had my business catch fire and most of the disruption to our business was caused by those who we chose to protect us -the insurance company, we settled before taking it to court but it cost me close to $35,000 just to get them to pay what they owed. They drove me to the brink they treated me unfairly. In the 'settlement' meeting everytime they brought up how something wasn't covered we asked them where it said they could act the way they did. The point of this is WHEN YOU GIVE TO SOMEONE OR SOMETHING AND TRUST THEM AND THEY VIOLATE THAT TRUST YOU GIVE TO THEM, SOMETIMES THE COURTS ARE THE ONLY PLACE TO GET VINDICATION FOR THAT TREATMENT. M (and his orginization) F**KED with our lives, our souls, our beings, HE is responsible for that, we are VICTIMS of a manipulative SOB, BLAMING THE VICTIMS IS NOT THE SOLUTION. HE is RESPONSIBLE, morally, personally and I hope in the future to someone who left, finacially and legally. I hope his whole charade can be brought down. BLAMING THE VICTIMS DOESN'T WORK HERE!

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Date: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 02:01:22 (EDT) From: CD Email: None To: Ben Lurking Subject: Re: Hey, Jim--I'm suing--Anyone Else Message:

>This is Ex-premie.org, most of us here left the cult and some of the current members come around and complain about how we slam M. Slam all you want. I'm not complaining. Just know that there are people who don't buy your story of victimization. I am sorry to hear about your insurance story. Sounds a lot like the injustice done to my previous boss by false gov accusations that eventually resulted in him having a heart attack and dying. I'm not too keen on legal accusations unless they have very high validity. I also gave M the role of a teacher as you did. I didn't get F**KED. I do wonder who you think has the 'real' answers to your existence and how it plays out on this planet in the middle of nowhere and endless time. I find the focus on the feeling of life to be extremely correct. There are certainly also daily details of subsistence to be dealt with. My girlfriend reminds me of that every day after she gets home from taking care of dying people at the hospital with some of the worst afflictions imaginable. Anyway, hope your life is enjoyable and satisfying. I am not intending to fan flames of hatred. CD

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Date: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 22:00:50 (EDT) From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: CD Subject: Re: Hey, Jim--I'm suing--Anyone Else Message:

I'm not complaining. Just know that there are people who don't buy your story of victimization. Its not a story for sale, only a current victim could deny reality, the level of deceit, abuse (mental by other 'lovers' as well as M) and pain is different for every ex. The point is she says she was hurt we believe her and we don't hold her responsible for getting hurt. We hold M and his orginization responsible. By the way how is all of your 'non-profit organization's money spent, do you get an annual report like most charities, do you submit your books for review by the BBB lilke a other legitimate charities or are you worried they won't understand? At what point does it become obvious to you that the methods your cult uses require secrecy so that it can keep you. Why else would the LORD need to hide his methods, could he be breaking the law but all the members give each other a wink and a nod and say its okay we know he's god, he desn't have to obey the rules. How does an 'impoverished' 13 year old gather this much wealth? Why does he need it? Do you donate 10% of your income? Where did the 10% figure come from? (other churches?) No CD I view you as a victim who has been struck so hard he doesn't even know he was hit. Like an accident victim you are in denial of your condition.

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Date: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 18:47:13 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: Get real, Chris. Just get real Message:

Slam [the Hamster] all you want. I'm not complaining. Just know that there are people who don't buy your story of victimization. But why aren't you complaining, Chris? If you think the criticisms aren't warranted you must think this is a terrible, terrible thing for premies to do. First, calling themselves 'ex-premies' of all things (you remember, don't you, how Maharaji once bragged that he's never lost one. We're just on a bit of hiatus, right? All the people who ever got initiated, they're all his devotees deep down, right?). Then this constant barrage of lies and vicious distortions. You've seen how several people have denounced Maharaji as a result of nothing more than reading this page and thinking a bit. Chris, it's absolutely phony (but not out of character, I'm afraid) for you to claim you don't mind people slamming Maharaji here. You're phony, Chris. So phony you probably don't even know what I'm talking about. You're so disassociated from the real person that Mrs. Dickey raised, you can't remember being any different. Which leads me to my next point ... I am sorry to hear about your insurance story. Sounds a lot like the injustice done to my previous boss by false gov accusations that eventually resulted in him having a heart attack and dying. I'm not too keen on legal accusations unless they have very high validity. (No, not this. This is an intermediate point. Mezzanine point.) You've told us about this before. Sounds terrible. Yet, Chris, it's a fairly small sample size to support such a broad position, isn't it? Some guy gets falsely accused and suffers so no one should get accused of anything? No, I know, you're into accusations flying, so long as they 'have very high validity'. Tell us about this accusation, Chris, and how valid you think theit is: Maharaji has amassed great wealth by encouraging premies to give him money. Tell me about the validity of this allegation, Chris. High? Medium? Medium high? A little on the low side? Perposterous? What say you, oh fair one? I also gave M the role of a teacher as you did. I didn't get F**KED. So here's my next point: Chris you only think you didn't get F**KED (whatever that is!). I say you're a completely F**KED person who's been severly damaged by the cult. Okay? So there we have it, two opinions. Maybe you're right, maybe I am. Whatever the case, you can't say decisively. At most you can say you think I'm wrong. Fine, I disagree. I say you've demonstrated a startling personality here for the last couple of years. If I had a friend who communicated like you I'd really encourage him to get into some sort of therapy and fast. Seriously. I do wonder who you think has the 'real' answers to your existence and how it plays out on this planet in the middle of nowhere and endless time. You mean 'if Maharaji isn't holding my hand, who is?' No one's holding your hand, Chris, except your girlfriend. Maharaji sure isn't. I find the focus on the feeling of life to be extremely correct. There are certainly also daily details of subsistence to be dealt with. Whatever makes you talk like a robot is bad. You should think about this. Honestly.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 21:52:22 (EDT) From: Surreal Simon Email: None To: CD Subject: Re: Hey, Jim--I'm suing--Anyone Else Message:

That's good CD. After 25 years of being stuck in a false belief system, Gail will find your advice like a breath of fresh air.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 22:49:43 (EDT) From: CD Email: None To: Surreal Simon Subject: Cool Simon Message:

You're too cool Simon. Now give Gail something that will benefit her, not you. CD

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 10:35:19 (EDT) From: Surreal Simon Email: None To: CD Subject: Re: Cool Simon Message:

That doesn't make sense. If you'd said, 'not yourself' it would have done. Anyway, CD, I think you should rename yourself, Surreal CD as your posts are as surreal as mine are sometimes.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 22:55:25 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: CD, you're too old for soothers Message:

Funny talking with you premies. 'Well, if I don't follow Maharaji, who should I follow?' 'Oh, great, I suppose you're the perfect one, eh?' 'Why shouldn't I trust Maharaji? Are you offering to show me my real heart [way home, inner self, true friend, blah, blah, blah]?' Don't for get, Chris, suckers are for suckers.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 21:47:00 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: Chris Dickey goes deep Message:

Chris, What hobbies or interests do you recommend for this woman who just got out of your cult after twenty-some-odd years? Poetry?

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 22:57:51 (EDT) From: CD Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Chris Dickey goes deep Message:

My cult? Got out of? Gail has been Gail for a long time. She has a lot of potential. She should continually discover what she enjoys. She still has to feel what her life is each day. So what is new? >Poetry? I am biased. Music, and share a few bucks and conversation with some people who look like they need it. CD

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 23:04:25 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: Re: Chris Dickey goes deep Message:

Gail has been Gail for a long time. Why would you say something like that? It makes you look so tentative it's funny. It IS funny, Chris, the way you talk. Like some half-baked Yoda or something. Trying to get yourself a little harem going like swami Kieth? No, I know, that's not what you want. You just want to be inane and keep smiling. She has a lot of potential. Chris, you missed your calling. You should have been a guidance counsellor. She should continually discover what she enjoys. Do you have even the slightest idea how insipid you sound? She still has to feel what her life is each day. Cult talk. Get thee away, Satan! So what is new? Nothing you've ever said, that's for sure.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 23:16:02 (EDT) From: CD Email: None To: Jim Subject: hobbies Message:

>Do you have even the slightest idea how insipid you sound? You wish you had a child so you could stick a soap bar into their mouth. The internet is a relatively harmless substitute for your fantasies. Your 'complexity' brews hatred. A curious hobby. CD

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 23:19:16 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: Answer the question for once, Chris (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 00:11:00 (EDT) From: CD Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Answer the question for once, Chris (nt) Message:

>Do you have even the slightest idea how insipid you sound? Jims wish a command - believe as I do or don't believe There is silence in this medium yet Jim hears sounds in his head. A mystery, brain chemicals at work or a flashback of the Mozart effect? You be the judge. Digges was the first Renaissance writer to advance the idea of a physically infinite universe. Eight years after Digges' proposal, the Italian philosopher Giordano Bruno published similar ideas; for this and other impieties Bruno was burned at the stake in 1600 This result showed the existence of irrational numbers There is so much to know and so little time. A good start is to read most of the books in the Library of Congress. But remember that we all have a lot to learn! Have fun, CD

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 00:17:47 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: And you STILL won't answer it!! Message:

Chris, For God's sake, I asked you a simple, SIMPLE question. Why won't you answer it? Here it is again: Do you have even the slightest idea how insipid you sound? I'm not asking for a treatise on insipidity. I'm not asking for a dog and pony show that proves how amazingly intelligent you 'really' are. I'm not asking for your opinion about me, what I'm like, how I think. I'm just asking you a goddammed simple motherfucking question, can you answer it or not? Sheesh!

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 13:10:48 (EDT) From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: Jim Subject: And The Defense Calls CD Message:

So lets see Gail gets her day in court, M's attorney calls CD, Why is Gail having the problems she is having? She must be in her mind - she just needs to get on with it. M rests Jim: Well she can't get on with it, your master clusterf** her brain. CD- As I said she is in her mind that is our defense. We are not a cult we are a sanctioned non profit religous organization and to keep our costs down we don't have any churches just wandering minstrels. Judge: I direct you CD, to answer the question. CD I did. Judge: I find for Gail - End of Story.

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 00:21:47 (EDT) From: CD Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: And you STILL won't answer it!! Message:

No, no, no, no, no. Thankyou. If a 6 was a 9, I don't mind ...

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 14:14:28 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: Gail Subject: What Jurisdiction, Gail? Message:

What country will you be filing the suit in? Canada or the US? Maybe we should bring an action at the International War Crimes Tribunal, since we have an international claim. It was kinda like a war, wasn't it? I mean, if they can extradite Pinochet, why not Maharaji? By the way, congrats to that British judge that okayed Pinochet's extradition to Spain. I never thought I would see it happen. I heard that monster Suharto is scared shitless and decided to stay in Indonesia and not to go to Germany for medical care because he is afraid the same thing would happen to him! I also read that Henry Kissinger checks with the State Department before leaving the country, just in case, for the same reason. Nice to see these guys shake in their boots just a bit!

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 17:10:37 (EDT) From: Gail Email: None To: JW Subject: Re: What Jurisdiction, Gail? Message:

I thought I'd start here in Canada--but who knows? They have the death penalty in California, don't they?

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Date: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 02:33:25 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: Gail Subject: Re: What Jurisdiction, Gail? Message:

Yeah, we do, but it is hardly ever used . But in Texas they execute people daily, so I would suggest there.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 14:19:58 (EDT) From: Jethro Email: None To: JW Subject: Maybe not JW! Message:

'By the way, congrats to that British judge that okayed Pinochet's extradition to Spain. I never thought I would see it happen. ' JW, don't celebrate to quickly. The ruling can be overturned by the Home Secretary and he(Pinochet) can appeal against the appeal.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 14:23:34 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Re: What Jurisdiction, Gail? Message:

I know this isn't the end; I'm just amazed that it has gotten this far, no thanks to Margaret Thatcher.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:22:39 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Gail Subject: May I join? Message:

Hey, I still have receits for a $ 4,000 mail transfer I've done in his mail box. Can I join you as a French resident? I've been persuaded to make that donation by Yoram Weisz, an EV instructor.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:40:48 (EDT) From: Grace Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: What Grounds? Message:

I can't imagine you'd have a lawsuit based on giving donations to the charity/religion/church/whatever of your choice. You did that willingly and now are sorry but I don't see how you could ask for your money back. The televangelists (sp?) never have to.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 14:10:14 (EDT) From: Know It All Email: None To: Grace Subject: Re: What Grounds? Message:

Being fraudulently induced to give money to someone might be a basis for a lawsuit. For instance, if you were asked for money to support a trip by M to go to Africa to visit premies but the money actually went to buy him a new car..... Or, say if someone lied to you about the true history of the organization you were joining and that lie convinced you to give monthly donations to your new 'meditation teacher'.... Or.... the list is endless.

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 15:20:41 (EDT) From: premie slave Email: None To: Know It All Subject: you mean like if we volunteered at Rainbow Grocery? Message:

If we were told that Rainbow Grocery was a non-profit organization to help feed the hungry and all that good stuff and we volunteered and then behind the scenes the money was being funneled to Maharaji and the non-profit entity was changed into a private enterprise that enriched the premie owners? I spent many an hour in that basement on Colfax Avenue.

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Date: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 02:35:29 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: premie slave Subject: Re: you mean like if we volunteered at Rainbow Grocery? Message:

Yes, and I helped support ashram premies who worked for slave wages at two Rainbow Grocery stores in Chicago. How did those store end up enriching certain premies? Don't they owe all the former slaves part of the profits?

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 13:45:47 (EDT) From: Deerskin Email: None To: know it All Subject: Re: What Grounds? Message:

M is a fraud.I'd be delighted to see him rewarded legally as he deserves it.I'd like to join in an action against him.As a victim , I think this is a good way to heal.

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 13:35:14 (EDT) From: Deerskin Email: None To: Know It All Subject: Re: What Grounds? Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 02:39:04 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: Deerskin Subject: And What About the Plane? Message:

For at least a couple of years, DLM LIED to the premies and told them money was being raised for a WORLD TOUR, when it was actually being raised for that Boeing 707 monstrosity with the gold toilets. That is outright fraud and very easily proved. It happened in 1979-1980, and I, personally, lied to the premies on the instructions of DLM, which said it was coming directly from Maharaji. Hey, maybe a lawsuit is a really good idea after all! I would be happy to testify, with immunity of course.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 21:37:50 (EDT) From: CD Email: None To: Know It All Subject: Re: What Grounds? Message:

>Or.... the list is endless. Sure is. Go sue your mom now. I'm sure your hyperactive know it all thingy can come up with a strategy that makes sense to your know it all thingy. Have fun, CD

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 21:47:20 (EDT) From: Surreal Simon Email: None To: CD Subject: Re: What Grounds? Message:

Your post makes a lot of sense, CD.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 14:18:27 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: Know It All Subject: Re: What Grounds? Message:

Yeah, I think the misrepresentation (intentional and negligent) that he was the incarnation of god, which he years later either denied or just dropped quietly, is a basis. I know there are plenty of ex-premies who say they gave their time, money and everything else to Maharaji because they believed he was the messiah, that he was god and they believed that because of the way Maharaji was represented and what he said. I think it would be pretty easy to prove that he represented himself that way, and then did the 'bait and switch' years (and millions of dollars in donations) later. The words to the songs, the 'lord of the universe' and the pictures on J-Ms' site, as well as his own, published 'satsangs' would be fine pieces of evidence. I would LOVE to see Maharaji deposed, and confronted with the evidence, about all that.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 19:21:26 (EDT) From: DUO Email: None To: JW Subject: Re: What Grounds? Message:

And DUO was claimed to be for houseing and feeding and clotheing needy people. No one go a dime. He never stopped claiming to be god incarnate. Just altered the way he said it.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 20:05:42 (EDT) From: Know It All Email: None To: DUO Subject: Lawsuit against church for fraud upheld on appeal Message:

AP Wire Story by Bob Egelko, October 8, 1999 A church organization defrauded parents of mentally retarded adults by selling their longtime residential care center after leading them to believe it would never be sold without their approval, according to a state appeals court. The parents put up $15,000 each for a downpayment, refurbished the buildings and continued to raise money for the center over the years. The church association supervised the project, paid $600,000 for renovations and other costs, and had title to the property. When a government agency ordered the return of the parents' $15,000 in fees in late 1975 as a condition of receiving aid, the parents agreed to repay the money to the center as gifts. [Sound familiar?] They also renewed a proposal to let them buy the property if the church association ever decided to sell it. An association official told them the proposal had gotten preliminary approval and was likely to be approved. In fact, the court said, the proposal was secretly shelved by the association, who sold the property to developers for $6.8 million in 1996. You can learn lots by reading the paper. Know It All

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 20:33:23 (EDT) From: Bonnie Email: None To: Know It All Subject: Did we ever find out what Message:

NAME CHANGE 04/24/1997 OLD NAME WAS : ASSISTCARE, INC. AMENDMENT

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 13:29:12 (EDT) From: duo Email: None To: Bonnie Subject: Re: Did we ever find out what Message:

The IRS should have this included in their guru papers. It is a rats nest waiting for the light of day.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:37:20 (EDT) From: Fly Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Careful, the Lord Of The Universe is also.... Message:

...Hunter of Evildoers! (anag)

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:52:38 (EDT) From: Fly Email: None To: Fly Subject: ...or could that be... Message:

...Over-fed heroin lust? (anag)

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 22:49:15 (EDT) From: Guess Who Email: None To: Fly Subject: Care for a pissing contest, Rob? Message:

If you don't shut up, I'll come over to Pompous Beach where you live and flip that kilt of yours. I hear you are a Maharaji turncoat yourself (of course, I don't believe it for a moment). I never did tell you what a loathesome creep you are. Where is my day's pay?

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 18:07:44 (EDT) From: Keep Guessing Email: None To: Guess Who Subject: Re: Care for a pissing contest, Rob? Message:

Girlfrend you are soooo wrong! I guess ya missed da Fly's Famous IP/browser 101 class. See ya just can't go by da browser thingy no more. I mean, look over ya shoulder, you see anyone typin' on yer keybode? Nooo sister. An' IPs? Wull just you have da webmister check mine out right now, tink you'll find I's in Seoul, Korea, where da weather is bitchin' hot 'n steamy. So give it up girly, ain't nuttin on this site worth a crock o' shit in da Real world, less'n you's a phreakin', phrackin', hackin' genuse like I is:) PS Done let da EV breefs think yoos a vindictive, threatnin' nutso cuz theys bound ta use dat, savvie?:) PPS Dis ain't nuttin but fer ya'll entertainment solo use, done be tekin it all seryus now see:)

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 23:10:31 (EDT) From: Blackdog Email: None To: Keep Guessing Subject: Where do you want to come from today???? Message:

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CHILE PROXY : PORT proxy.concep.reuna.cl:8080 CN - CHINA PROXY : PORT proxy.szptt.net.cn:8080 pcsoft.szptt.net.cn:80 CO - COLUMBIA PROXY : PORT cache.latino.net.co:80 COM - COMMERCIAL PROXY : PORT 110user151.ctinets.com:80 99user171.ctinets.com:80 adam.enteract.com:8080 alpha.shinnova.com:8080 bbs.packardbell.com:80 bbs.visuallink.com:80 beachboy.kajen.com:8080 brinc01.bigpond.com:80 bw36.bwa-auto.com:80 cache.escortnet.com:80 cache.pressroom.com:80 cache1.cc.interlog.com:80 cache1.cc.interlog.com:3128 cache1.toronto.interlog.com:80 cache1.toronto.interlog.com:3128 cacheflow-1.fwi.com:80 cacheflow-1.fwi.com:8080 cacheflow.inficad.com:80 cacheflow.pclink.com:80 cp-cache1.cpinternet.com:80 ctc-www.ctronsoft.com:80 d058656.sce.com:80 diamond.aspley.brisbane.ambience.com:80 dt0d1n04.san.rr.com:3128 eaglent.cemexusa.com:80 fortress.resonet.com:80 ftp.sylvania.com:80 gatekeeper.tnagb.com:80 gateway.anza.com:80 gateway.hro.com:8080 gromit.crocker.com:8080 gtchouston.com:80 hercules.integrityonline17.com:80 imsp087.netvigator.com:80 inktomi.efortress.com:80 internet-gw1.hea.com:80 intrepid.warped.com:3128 iolite.hknet.com:80 iolite.hknet.com:8080 ipfilter.hknet.com:80 ipfilter.hknet.com:8080 krunk1.xmission.com:8000 mail.itdynamics.com:80 mail.sfer-indo.com:80 melnc01.bigpond.com:80 minnetronix.com:80 minwall.minolta.com:80 ns.berk.com:8080 ns.boole.com:80 ns.netmar.com:8080 ns.tecan-group.com:8080 ns.wpem.com:80 ns1.san.rr.com:8080 ns2.scbbs-bo.com:80 panda-rosemary.com:8080 pc193.taifook.com:80 pm-101.tnaccess.com:80 pm-209.tnaccess.com:80 pm-238.tnaccess.com:80 pm-240.tnaccess.com:80 pm-247.tnaccess.com:80 prefetch-atm.midsouth.rr.com:8080 prefetch-atm.nycap.rr.com:8080 prefetch-atm.san.rr.com:8080 proctorsalesinc.zzz.com:8080 proxy-east1.get2net.com:80 proxy.carinthia.com:80 proxy.genevaonline.com:80 proxy.magus.net:8084 proxy.magus.net:8090 proxy.mcmail.com:8080 proxy.sce.com:80 proxy.speedware.com:80 proxy.vt.com:80 proxy01.dbn.iafrica.com:80 proxy2.lsil.com:8080 proxye1-atm.elp.rr.com:8080 proxye1-atm.maine.rr.com:8080 proxye1-atm.tampabay.rr.com:8080 proxye2-atm.elp.rr.com:8080 proxye2-atm.nycap.rr.com:8080 proxye2-atm.san.rr.com:8080 proxye3-atm.elp.rr.com:8080 proxye3-atm.maine.rr.com:8080 proxye3-atm.nycap.rr.com:8080 proxye3-atm.san.rr.com:8080 proxye4-atm.elp.rr.com:8080 proxye4-atm.maine.rr.com:8080 proxye4-atm.nycap.rr.com:8080 proxye4-atm.san.rr.com:8080 proxyone.cowles.com:8080 purpletongue.bluetongue.com:80 ra.tnaccess.com:80 raistlin.carinthia.com:80 remax-mammoth.com:80 riw-cap-4.wyoming.com:80 simba.customcpu.com:80 smtpgw.national-city.com:80 sydnc01.bigpond.com:80 titan.datainternet.com:8080 web2.erinet.com:80 webcache.us.newbridge.com:80 www.aerobot.com:80 www.asidfw.com:8080 www.boc-fw.com:8080 www.erinet.com:80 www.intwebservice.com:80 www.iscdfw.com:8080 www.iws-inc.com:8080 www.kci-dfw.com:8080 www.propeller.com:80 www.techline-dfw.com:8080 www.thefourthr-fw.com:8080 www3.iom.com:80 yogsothoth.ludexpress.com:8080 CZ - CZECH REPUBLIC PROXY : PORT bg.pcdir.cz:80 dell4100.vc.cvut.cz:80 webcache.ms.mff.cuni.cz:8080 DE - GERMANY PROXY : PORT aiken.rz-zw.fh-kl.de:8081 andele.cs.tu-berlin.de:80 be3334.schering.de:8080 bibo.fz.uni-lueneburg.de:80 cache-engine.netcologne.de:8080 etecs5.uni-duisburg.de:80 fhdo2.dvz.fh-dortmund.de:80 gandalf.waf-online.de:8080 hdihp2-f.fzk.de:80 kmeijn.me.kp.dlr.de:8080 netcache.netcologne.de:8080 news.dwelle.de:80 nor1s005.jungheinrich.de:80 ns.uv.ruhr-uni-bochum.de:80 p3.uhlencom.de:80 ramses.erlm.siemens.de:80 rena.zfn.uni-bremen.de:3128 resistor.gtz.de:80 sun-2.punkt.de:8080 ultra1b.noc.fh-aachen.de:3128 vivaldi.dwelle.de:80 vivaldi.dwelle.de:80 www-cache.fh-dortmund.de:80 www-cache.rz-zw.fh-kl.de:8081 www-proxy.online-service.de:80 www.rz.hs-bremen.de:3128 wwwproxy.fh-kiel.de:8080 zeus.rz.htwk-leipzig.de:80 DK - DENMARK PROXY : PORT bc-kunde-c1.kmd.dk:80 denethor.imf.au.dk:80 gate.dmi.min.dk:80 mail.koegekom.dk:80 nt-server.rejsby-euro-sk.dk:80 test-cache.net.uni-c.dk:80 uv.silkehs.dk:80 EDU - EDUCATIONAL PROXY : PORT anc1.alaska.edu:80 beast.npac.syr.edu:8080 bogachiel.evergreen.edu:8080 Brahma.CC.PurdueNC.Edu:8080 carla.dpo.uab.edu:80 felix.usc.edu:80 fw.resident.sunysb.edu:8080 garnet.cc.purduenc.edu:8080 http.icsi.berkeley.edu:8080 jun1.alaska.edu:80 ns1.bryant.edu:8080 proxy.mlc-wels.edu:80 proxy3.eku.edu:80 rhino.evansville.edu:80 transend1.cs.berkeley.edu:3128 transend2.cs.berkeley.edu:3128 transend3.cs.berkeley.edu:3128 transend4.cs.berkeley.edu:3128 vanguard.vg.pdx.edu:80 w-me14.win.ecn.uiowa.edu:80 webcache.gw.uiuc.edu:80 www-proxy.bryant.edu:8080 www-proxy.ksu.edu:8080 www.samford.edu:8080 zeus.fiu.edu:8080 ES - SPAIN PROXY : PORT itan.ikerlan.es:80 linux.softec.es:8080 proxy.cin.es:80 FI - FINLAND PROXY : PORT dlc.fi:80 cache-hki-e.inet.fi:800 majakka.saunalahti.fi:80 pasteur.tpu.fi:8080 proxy.cs.tpu.fi:80 proxy.inet.fi:800 www-cache.tpu.fi:8080 www-proxy.ilmajoki.fi:80 FO - FAROE ISLANDS PROXY : PORT lv.fo:80 FR - FRANCE PROXY : PORT dns1.ac-lille.fr:80 manon.infrescom.fr:80 proxy.ac-lille.fr:80 proxycf1.grolier.fr:80 proxycf1.grolier.fr:8080 GL - GREENLAND PROXY : PORT host_226_002.greennet.gl:80 GR - GREECE PROXY : PORT filathlos.filathlosnet.gr:80 www.lesvos.compulink.gr:80 HU - HUNGARY PROXY : PORT cash.datanet.hu:80 ID - INDONESIA PROXY : PORT proxy-1.indo.net.id:80 proxy-2.indo.net.id:80 proxy-3.indo.net.id:80 proxy-4.indo.net.id:80 proxy-5.indo.net.id:80 IE - IRELAND PROXY : PORT proxy1.lyit.ie:8080 proxy1.rtc-letterkenny.ie:8080 IL - ISREAL PROXY : PORT customer.netvision.net.il:80 goldcache.attgold.net.il:80 IS - ICELAND PROXY : PORT gaea.vortex.is:80 nafni.skyggnir.is:80 ns0.ok.is:80 proxy.vortex.is:80 valla.tv.is:80 www.aknet.is:80 IT - ITALY PROXY : PORT aras.softeam.it:8080 armagnac.inferentia.it:80 dedra.adria.it:8080 dns.nti.it:8080 falco.procom.it:8080 mail.lcnet.it:8080 mercury.lngs.infn.it:80 proxy.castagna.it:80 proxy.gensoft.it:8080 proxy.lcnet.it:8080 proxy.micanet.it:80 wwwcache.lngs.infn.it:80 JO - JORDAN PROXY : PORT www.go.com.jo:8080 AC.JP - JAPAN PROXY : PORT www.cc.mie-u.ac.jp:80 ast200.osaka-seikei.ac.jp:8080 cactus.elm.timis.ac.jp:8080 cairo.osu.ac.jp:8080 censun03.sit.ac.jp:80 civil-gw.cv.titech.ac.jp:8080 cl-svr4.uccl.teikyo-u.ac.jp:8080 cntdb.cnts.himeji-tech.ac.jp:80 comicen.cis.iwate-it.ac.jp:80 cs.oita-med.ac.jp:80 dns1.chiyoda-gakuen.ac.jp:8080 eve.mes.titech.ac.jp:8080 fdcs02.fdcnet.ac.jp:8080 fserva.ynu.ac.jp:8080 gate.obc.ac.jp:8080 gatekeeper.shimane-med.ac.jp:8080 gro-G.wakayama-nct.ac.jp:80 hanshin.koshien-c.ac.jp:80 hitp-gw.hitp.ac.jp:8080 hyg-gw.hyo-med.ac.jp:8080 ibuki.ha.shotoku.ac.jp:80 id.takushoku-u.ac.jp:80 jaws001.otemae.ac.jp:81 kiku.asahi-u.ac.jp:10080 kinka.gifu-kyoiku.ac.jp:8080 kinka.ha.shotoku.ac.jp:8080 kpcu.kumamoto-pct.ac.jp:8080 la.kaic.ac.jp:8080 msic07.msic.med.osaka-cu.ac.jp:80 nebura2.tech.nebuta.ac.jp:8080 news.main.teikyo-u.ac.jp:80 ns.seigakuin-univ.ac.jp:8080 nsb-sv1.nag.ac.jp:80 primary.osaka-pct.ac.jp:80 proxy.chuo-shoka.ac.jp:8080 proxy2.pf.it-chiba.ac.jp:8080 rj4ntsv1.obirin.ac.jp:80 rs-srv1.sfc-js.keio.ac.jp:8080 rs6000n1-en1.center.wakayama-u.ac.jp:80 sakpro.eiyo.ac.jp:80 silver.suzuka-ct.ac.jp:80 takeyam.life.shimane-u.ac.jp:8080 tokudai.tokujo.ac.jp:80 ws8.kagawa-jc.ac.jp:8080 www-sv.ferris.ac.jp:8080 www.kagawa-jc.ac.jp:8080 www.obc.ac.jp:8080 www.oita-med.ac.jp:80 www.osaka-dent.ac.jp:80 www.ueno.ac.jp:8080 AD.JP - JAPAN PROXY : PORT ebisu04.ebisu.ad.jp:8080 news.gdbnet.ad.jp:8080 ns.gdbnet.ad.jp:8080 proxy.ebisu.ad.jp:8080 proxy.gdbnet.ad.jp:8080 CO.JP - JAPAN PROXY : PORT aasd301s.fujieic.co.jp:80 aases301.fei.co.jp:80 aimnt1001.aim-corp.co.jp:80 alec.alec.co.jp:8080 amuro.technonet.co.jp:80 axil.hama.gaio.co.jp:8080 bowwow.sde.co.jp:8080 cbnetsv01.cbnet.co.jp:80 denntr01.sunwa.co.jp:8080 dns.mnc.co.jp:8080 dns.nagase.co.jp:8080 dns1.infocom.co.jp:80 dtsgate.dotshell.co.jp:80 firewall.gcc.co.jp:80 fw2.mkcstat.co.jp:8080 fw3.mkcstat.co.jp:8080 gw.topcon.co.jp:8080 inet-sv.zenon.co.jp:8080 jtp-gw.jtp.co.jp:8080 march.nissan-prince-nagoya.co.jp:8080 misawa01.misawa.co.jp:8080 ml.keiwa-biz.co.jp:80 msv.jmsis.co.jp:8080 ns.amrhp.co.jp:80 ns.hayashikk.co.jp:80 ns.urbanmets.co.jp:8080 ns0.apecs.co.jp:8080 ns1.souken.co.jp:80 ntserver.gaku.co.jp:10080 ntsmtp.haagen-dazs.co.jp:80 om-is1.orientalmotor.co.jp:8080 proxy.adroad.co.jp:8080 proxy.elpasso.co.jp:8080 proxy.kokumon.co.jp:8080 proxy.kzi.co.jp:8080 rps.ana.co.jp:80 segw.seng.co.jp:80 sekigate_e.sekitech.co.jp:8080 snjsrvr3.club-tourism.co.jp:8080 spo_hon.idc-com.co.jp:8080 srv006.ysn.co.jp:8080 sun01.pdic.co.jp:8080 svdns.settsu.co.jp:8080 tcis00.uz.ascii.co.jp:80 tokyo-gw.koyo21.co.jp:8080 tokyo01.nemic.co.jp:8080 upsystem.co.jp:80 www.nichigai.co.jp:8080 www.nidec.co.jp:8080 GO.JP - JAPAN PROXY : PORT ringer.etl.go.jp:8080 proxy1.naec.go.jp:8080 NE.JP - JAPAN PROXY : PORT cat3.nns.ne.jp:8080 ns1.m-surf.ne.jp:8080 proxy.hidecnet.ne.jp:80 tsukasa1.tsukasa-unet.ocn.ne.jp:8080 www.apel.ne.jp:8080 www3.kcn.ne.jp:8080 OR.JP - JAPAN PROXY : PORT dns.jicnet.or.jp:8080 gatekeeper.focus.or.jp:8080 kuramoto.miyamizu.or.jp:8080 ma.jic.jicnet.or.jp:8080 ns.spy.or.jp:8080 ns1.shokokai-nagasaki.or.jp:8080 p1.zzz.or.jp:3128 proxy.health-net.or.jp:8080 rnacmor2.rnac.or.jp:8080 techno.ja-am.or.jp:10080 www.health-net.or.jp:8080 www.ink.or.jp:8080 www.shirakawa.or.jp:8080 (misc.) JP - JAPAN PROXY : PORT ns.daishi-hs.kawasaki.kawasaki.jp:8080 inetsv1.kawashima-jhs.kawashima.gifu.jp:80 watson.ysp.pref.yamaguchi.jp:80 www.rcb.gr.jp:8080 LU - LUXEMBOURG PROXY : PORT www.pt.lu:80 MIL - US Military PROXY : PORT anaconda.brooks.af.mil:80 garobi-fw.ang.af.mil:80 onion-router.nrl.navy.mil:9000 onion-router.nrl.navy.mil:9200 MT - MALTA PROXY : PORT relay1.kemmunet.net.mt:80 MX - MEXICO PROXY : PORT castor.dgsca-cray2.unam.mx:80 cismex1-250.uninet.net.mx:80 MY - MALAYSIA PROXY : PORT tenaga.tnb.com.my:8080 NET - NETWORK PROXY : PORT ad-proxy.eclipse.net:8000 asiainter.net:80 backbone-16-002.guate.net:80 block.ftech.net:80 bos2-wc2.atlas.digex.net:80 ca-public.value.net:80 ca-public.value.net:80 cache-1.golden.net:80 cache-2.golden.net:80 cache-dh1.casema.net:80 cache01-e4a.proxy.ozemail.net:8080 cache1.bora.net:80 cache1.frankfurt.contrib.net:80 cache1.mtl.dsuper.net:80 cache1.sntc01.pacbell.net:80 cache12-noc.kornet21.net:8001 cache2.binc.net:80 cache2.bora.net:80 cache3.bora.net:8080 cacheflow-02.mtl.total.net:80 cacheflow-02.mtl.total.net:80 cacheflow.cyberramp.net:80 cacheflow.cyberramp.net:8080 cacheflow2.mpinet.net:80 cachesrv.1st.net:80 ce-coop.malabar.clv.stratos.net:80 ce1.tdi.net:80 cf-00-00.cache.cantv.net:80 cf1000.netdirect.net:80 cf2.tor.accglobal.net:80 cflow1.mts.net:80 cflow2.mts.net:80 concord01.pop.internex.net:8080 crash.wwwcache.ja.net:8080 daemongate10.warehouse.net:80 daemongate11.warehouse.net:80 daemongate12.warehouse.net:80 daemongate13.warehouse.net:80 daemongate14.warehouse.net:80 daemongate15.warehouse.net:80 daemongate16.warehouse.net:80 daemongate17.warehouse.net:80 daemongate18.warehouse.net:80 daemongate19.warehouse.net:80 daemongate20.warehouse.net:80 daemongate21.warehouse.net:80 daemongate22.warehouse.net:80 daemongate23.warehouse.net:80 daemongate34.warehouse.net:80 daemongate44.warehouse.net:80 daemongate45.warehouse.net:80 daemongate49.warehouse.net:80 daemongate52.warehouse.net:80 daemongate63.warehouse.net:80 dca1-wc1.atlas.digex.net:80 dca1-wc1.atlas.digex.net:8080 dca1-wc2.atlas.digex.net:80 dca1-wc2.atlas.digex.net:8080 dead.wwwcache.ja.net:8080 double-panic.wwwcache.ja.net:8080 duluth.cache.mr.net:3128 dynacache.ultra.net:80 elpxy01.ce.mediaone.net:8080 elpxy01.ce.mediaone.net:8080 elpxy02.ce.mediaone.net:8080 gateway1.caribe.net:80 gateway2.caribe.net:80 ginger.wwwcache.ja.net:8080 gip-sydn-cache-2.gip.net:80 hamster.slip.net:8080 icp6.servers.wwwcache.ja.net:8080 icp7.servers.wwwcache.ja.net:8080 icp7.servers.wwwcache.ja.net:8080 icp8.servers.wwwcache.ja.net:8080 idefix.germany.net:8080 instant1.gua.net:80 ixproxy1.telia.net:8080 ixproxy2.telia.net:8080 ixproxy3.telia.net:8080 k112.value.net:80 korma.connect-2.net:80 lhsa-proxy.shutter.net:80 loxppp67-usr.suapha.loxinfo.net:80 loxppp8-sp10.suapha.loxinfo.net:80 loxusr3.suapha.loxinfo.net:80 mail.westminster.net:80 mars.germany.net:3128 mbox.verona.it.net:80 megatop.panlanka.net:80 mtplsnt3.lisco.net:80 mtplsnt39.lisco.net:80 mtplsnt4.lisco.net:80 mtplsnt57.lisco.net:80 nas9-22.thefree.net:80 newpella31.lisco.net:80 newpella37.lisco.net:80 nexus-1.flash.net:8080 nrl.onion-router.net:9200 ns.adams.net:8080 ns.egyptian.net:8080 ns.excell.net:8080 ns.htc.net:8080 ns.riccione.net:80 ns1.isol.net:80 ns1.utah-net.net:8080 pepper.wwwcache.ja.net:8080 pm3-1-user-39.mgv.hom.net:80 polk.se.mediaone.net:8080 polk.se.mediaone.net:8080 proxy.argonaut.net:80 proxy.coqui.net:80 proxy.elkgrove.net:80 proxy.golden.net:3000 proxy.golden.net:80 proxy.webbernet.net:80 proxy2.coqui.net:80 rochester.cache.mr.net:3128 salt.wwwcache.ja.net:8080 scone.ukcore.bt.net:3128 server2.vip2000.net:80 sigourney11.lisco.net:80 sprintcache.micron.net:80 sun.hallertau-online.net:80 sys23.hou.wt.net:80 titan.germany.net:80 tproxy.enta.net:80 ts011d32.hil-ny.concentric.net:80 waltz.rahul.net:80 wc1.entelchile.net:80 web-proxy.geo.net:8000 webcache1.th.red.net:80 NI - NICARAGUA PROXY : PORT cache.tmx.com.ni:80 NL - NETHERLANDS PROXY : PORT ftp.castel.nl:8080 hades.hro.nl:8080 homepages.harbinger.nl:8080 hpsl.ics.ele.tue.nl:80 merlijn.kabelfoon.nl:80 ns.siteways.nl:8080 ns2.castel.nl:8080 splash.hro.nl:80 splsh1.hro.nl:80 www-proxy.ele.tue.nl:80 www.misc.hro.nl:80 NO - NORWAY PROXY : PORT alpha1.hnett.no:8080 NZ - NEWZEALAND PROXY : PORT 203-96-95-163.ipnets.xtra.co.nz:8080 ORG - ORGANIZATION PROXY : PORT basis.desk.org:80 front3.cpl.org:8080 fw.csu.org:80 hgea01.hgea.org:8080 mail.archdiocese-no.org:80 mwc-nv.midwestcentral.org:80 proxy.maryhurst.org:80 proxy.pomfretschool.org:8080 webproxy.einpgh.org:80 PE - PERU PROXY : PORT alpha.cosapidata.com.pe:80 mailcodata.cosapidata.com.pe:80 tiwinza.unired.net.pe:80 PK - PAKISTAN PROXY : PORT oolala.aol.net.pk:80 PL - POLAND PROXY : PORT helios.man.lublin.pl:3128 sunsite.icm.edu.pl:8080 ultra.cto.us.edu.pl:8080 w3cache.us.edu.pl:8080 PT - PORTUGAL PROXY : PORT beta.di.uminho.pt:80 camoes.rnl.ist.utl.pt:8080 PY - PARAGUAY PROXY : PORT ns1.infonet.com.py:8080 QT - QUATAR PROXY : PORT proxy.qatar.net.qa:8080 RO - ROMANIA PROXY : PORT primarie6.kappa.ro:80 RU - RUSSIA PROXY : PORT ats-cache-1.rtsnet.ru:80 cp4.mi.ru:80 periscope.opennet.ru:3128 SE - SWEDEN PROXY : PORT hadar-pgw.hadar.ideon.se:80 hassaleh.tdb.uu.se:8080 linus.af.lu.se:80 utfc2.utfors.se:80 park1.park.se:80 proxy.www.lysator.liu.se:80 SG - SINGAPORE PROXY : PORT galaxy.singnet.com.sg:80 qt-ce.singnet.com.sg:8080 mars.netspire.com.sg:8080 TH - THAILAND PROXY : PORT netcache.loxinfo.co.th:80 ns2.a-net.net.th:80 ppp32.a-net.net.th:80 swallow.cat.net.th:8080 proxy.cat.net.th:8080 TR - TURKEY PROXY : PORT ankara3.turnet.net.tr:8080 proxy1.turnet.net.tr:8080 proxy2.turnet.net.tr:8080 proxy3.turnet.net.tr:8080 TW - TAIWAN PROXY : PORT c1.h202052106.is.net.tw:80 cache.ht.net.tw:80 cache1.ht.net.tw:80 ctcb.chinatrust.com.tw:8080 CTCB.chinatrust.com.tw:8080 exsrvtpe.phxeng.com.tw:80 fw.cht.com.tw:8080 gis2.epa.gov.tw:8080 proxy.golden.com.tw:8080 proxy.wonder.net.tw:80 server.928.com.tw:3128 www.ecs.com.tw:80 UK - UNITED KINGDOM PROXY : PORT dexter.midkent.ac.uk:8080 double-panic.lut.ac.uk:8080 horatio.cre.canon.co.uk:8080 isis.uce.ac.uk:80 lux.doc.ic.ac.uk:8000 mailhost.ypo.co.uk:80 mailsun.wcoh.ac.uk:80 mhs.pontypridd.ac.uk:80 ns0.poptel.org.uk:8080 proxy.mistral.co.uk:3128 softy.poptel.org.uk:8080 thingy.eng.abdn.ac.uk:80 vide-gate.coventry.ac.uk:3128 webcache02p.cache.pol.co.uk:80 webcache02s.cache.pol.co.uk:80 webcache09p.cache.pol.co.uk:80 webcache10p.cache.pol.co.uk:80 webcache11p.cache.pol.co.uk:80 webcache18a.cache.pol.co.uk:80 webcache19a.cache.pol.co.uk:80 webcache20a.cache.pol.co.uk:80 webcache20b.cache.pol.co.uk:80 webcache21a.cache.pol.co.uk:80 webcache22a.cache.pol.co.uk:80 webcache23a.cache.pol.co.uk:80 webcache24a.cache.pol.co.uk:80 webcache25a.cache.pol.co.uk:80 webcache26a.cache.pol.co.uk:80 webcachew01a.cache.pol.co.uk:80 webcachew02a.cache.pol.co.uk:80 webcachew03a.cache.pol.co.uk:80 webcachew04b.cache.pol.co.uk:80 webcachew07a.cache.pol.co.uk:80 whisky.colloquium.co.uk:80 www-cache.local.pol.co.uk:80 www-proxy.advsys.co.uk:80 www-proxy.advsys.co.uk:8080 www-proxy.colloquium.co.uk:80 www-proxy.cqm.co.uk:80 wwwadmin.eng.abdn.ac.uk:80 wwwcache.boardwalk-cafe.co.uk:80 wwwcache.pontypridd.ac.uk:80 US - 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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 19:05:08 (EDT) From: Ron Leech Email: None To: Keep Guessing Subject: Re: Care for a pissing contest, Rob? Message:

You bloody slope-heads should learn to talk proper before you go writing shit in public MON. Look, if this sheila's a bit light in the purse, why don't we have a whip round and bung her some? I mean, fair go, she's one of us, right?

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Date: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 01:37:38 (EDT) From: Paul Hogan Email: None To: Ron Leech Subject: Re: Care for a pissing contest, Rob? Message:

Who the fuck are you supposed to be? Chips Rafferty? Ronald would not demean himself to actually type his own posts you fool!

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 19:22:15 (EDT) From: Miguel Email: None To: Ron Leech Subject: Re: Care for a pissing contest, Rob? Message:

Sí, quisiera ayudar a esta hermana loca. Soy premie en Itajuba, el Brasil y no tengo muchos dólares sino me digo donde y enviaré. Gracias y el dios bendice América.

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 11:08:25 (EDT) From: Guess Who II Email: None To: Guess Who Subject: Re: Care for a pissing contest, Rob? Message:

Hey Guess Who, Let it go. I lost more than a day's pay and had to let it go. Dem's da breaks girlfriend. GWII

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Date: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 04:03:26 (EDT) From: Guess Who II Email: None To: Guys Subject: Above message does not pertain to Rob ;-) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:49:53 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: Fly Subject: Please discuss offline Message:

Gail: More power to you! I have missed hearing from you. I do not think it is a good idea to discuss this where the prying eyes of DLM/EV can read it. The less they know about different sources of potential litigation and investigation by attorneys, law enforcement, etc., the better. Of course, I am still of the opinion that they have a duty to produce Jagdeo for interviews by interested law enforcement agencies. Marianne

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:53:53 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Anything new? Message:

Any news about how Elan Vital, Maharaji, and Jagdeo may be reacting to the recent relevations about child abuse in Maharaji's cult? Anth? Anyone? Last I heard the police were investigating and Elan Vital was supposedly cooperating. Hmmmmm.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:56:00 (EDT) From: Fly Email: None To: JW Subject: relocating...... Message:

Sorry, I'm being distracting....I'll continue the anag fun over on AG

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 11:18:00 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Hm, I wonder who's next? Message:

IRS reviews Mormon political activity SAN FRANCISCO - City supervisors this week asked the IRS to investigate whether the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is breaking federal law by drumming up support for a March 2000 ballot measure that would prevent the state from recognizing same-sex unions performed outside California. IRS rules prohibit religious organizations from engaging in ''substantial'' political activity without endangering their tax-exempt status - a requirement that recently forced the Christian Coalition to split into two. The IRS cannot comment on whether the agency agreed to investigate the Mormon church, said Larry Wright, an agency spokesman in Oakland. Many religious conservatives fear that if gay marriages are allowed in one state, others would have to recognize their validity. Gay rights advocates expect to spend $10 million in an uphill battle to urge Californians to change their minds.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 11:31:43 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Slight Correction Message:

The ballot initiative in California would not legalize gay marriage it would ban California from recognizing gay marriages that are legal in any other state, like may happen in Hawaii and Vermont. This is probably unconstitutional under the 10th amendment which requires every state to recognize the marriages, divorces, etc., performed in other states, but that doesn't seem to stop anyone. Bills in the State legislature to do this have been defeated several times. The Mormons are heavily financing the intiative, as they did with similar initiatives in Alaska and Hawaii where the majority of the money also came from the Mormons. Senator Hatch of Utah, a mormon himself, and currently running for the Republican nomination for president, recently said that SF was persecuting a religion by asking the IRS to investigate. One thing about Maharaji, he is so self-centered and shallow, that I don't think he has ever gotten involved in politics, except when he wanted some new material possession for himself, like when he wanted Malibu to allow him to have a heliport and then wanted to use it more than the city preferred.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 20:00:28 (EDT) From: URL Email: None To: JW Subject: You're a sad case JW Message:

Gosh, you're a spiteful man! You see nothing but self-centeredness and abusiveness in everything Maharaji does. That he would be such a low-life is really quite inconceivable, especially taking into account the quality people he has retained on his staff over the years, and the kindness he has displayed -- albeit appearently not to you. Him closing down the ashrams must have really put your nose out of joint.

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 06:40:09 (EDT) From: A Premie Email: None To: URL Subject: Re: You're a sad case JW Message:

I know what you mean URL. Maharaji surrounds himself with people of quality to help him with his business and tells the dross to go take a walk and small minded people like JW take offence. I mean, JW just dosn't reckognise the kindness and compassion in Maharaji does he. Personally, I'm proud that my hard earned cash which I've gladly given to Maharaji has been used to create a business empire which is making Maharaji ever more wealthy. Why the hell would Maharaji want whining losers around him now that he's 'made it' in a big way. Oh by the way, where is my dear sister, Pauline Premie? I'm sure you might like to add your comment here.

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Date: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 03:09:44 (EDT) From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: A Premie Subject: I Am Here, Oh My Brother Message:

Yes, you are so right. The people surrounding Maharaji are all selected because of their supreme level of dedication and devotion and his grace makes them instruments of his love. Michael Donner, Bob Mishler, Michael Dettmers, Bill Patterson and David Smith are examples of truly loving and high spritual beings, not because of them, but because of Maharaji's grace. Maharaji is not only the master of THAT experience, he is also the MASTER of getting the most out of people. The ashram was the supreme opportunity to dedicate, devote, and experience knowledge. I felt I was lucky to be there, to devote my time, energy, money and my sex life to Maharaji. And it wasn't always easy. I can't tell you the number of times those brothers were looking really fine to me, and the number of times I wanted to use the base of my barragon for something other than that for which it was intended, if you know what I mean, but it was so blissful, by his grace, to go beyond my desires, and live as a nun, for Maharaji. We are so fortunate that he took us human beings, who are nothing more than pig snot, and allowed us to give our energy to him. I will for ever have that gratitude because I have been gifted by that gift which is that love, that truth, that peace and that experience and is his gift to me who is so undeserving of it because, as I said, I am nothing more than pig snot.

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 21:58:05 (EDT) From: red Email: @under the bed.com To: Pauline Premie Subject: Re: I Am Here, Oh My Brother Message:

is this a send up ?

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 23:42:49 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: URL Subject: And You're a Cult Case Message:

You are such a dumb shit, URL. Why don't you just stick to the topic? Have you ever heard of M being involved in politics? And as to his nature, how many times have you even talked to the man, URL? Ever? The truth is you no absolutely zero about him except what he wants you to know and what you can glean from his actions, or lack thereof. You are in no position to comment on his personality. I am commenting on his actions, which I think speak volumes about the kind of person he is and most of it isn't very flattering. By the way, I left the ashram, and the Maharaji personality cult, a few months before he closed the ashrams and threw the rest of the ashram residents out on their asses. So, I was not inflicted with that particular atrocity of his cult.

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Date: Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 12:32:27 (EDT) From: URL Email: None To: JW Subject: Re: And You're a Cult Case Message:

Have you ever heard of M being involved in politics? OK JW, you want me to stick to the point -- so what's yours? Are you trying to say politics is something that demonstrates integrity? Or that it has a great track record for getting things done? Maharaji teaches people about themselves, which is full of integrity. Why would he trade that in for a profession that makes bullshiting the masses a strength. Heck, why do you think lawyers make the best politicians? Besides let's face it JW, your bias is so strong against him nothing he could ever do would be acceptable to you. If he WAS in politics, you would hold THAT against him -- and you know it. And as to his nature, how many times have you even talked to the man, URL? Ever? About 8-10 times. How about you? The truth is you no absolutely zero about him except what he wants you to know and what you can glean from his actions, or lack thereof. You are in no position to comment on his personality. I am commenting on his actions, which I think speak volumes about the kind of person he is and most of it isn't very flattering. OK JW, so what puts you in a better position to assess his character than me? I comment on my interactions with him, and like you his actions, which speaks volumes TO ME about his kindness, compassion, and integrity. You're like a spoiled child JW. How ridiculous would it be if a teenager had the power to get rid of their parents for what appears to them to be unjust treatment? So tell me JW, what do you know about the origins of the soul and it's relationship to one's life? I came to Maharaji to learn about that, as I assume did you (but who knows what you REALLY came for). Whatever it was, you wanted it taught to you in just a certain way, which didn't happen. So like a spoiled teenager who couldn't have dad's car to go to the party, you sulk. ...I left the ashram, and the Maharaji personality cult, a few months before he closed the ashrams and threw the rest of the ashram residents out on their asses. So, I was not inflicted with that particular atrocity of his cult. Get some perspective, you suck. A nuclear plant next to a school yard is an atrocity. Ethnic cleansing is an atrocity. Dirty South American civil wars are atrocities. Forcing people to get their act together and become self-sufficient is kindness. Besides he gave people over a year to adjust to the changes he wanted to make before closing the ashrams down.

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 19:32:12 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: URL or JW Subject: Is this true? Message:

Besides he gave people over a year to adjust to the changes he wanted to make before closing the ashrams down. This is the first time I've heard that he gave any warning the ashrams were closing. Were you there, URL? Did this really happen? Can you elaborate?

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 20:19:03 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: URL Subject: That is SOOOOO funny!! Message:

Gosh, you're a spiteful man! You see nothing but self-centeredness and abusiveness in everything Maharaji does. That he would be such a low-life is really quite inconceivable, especially taking into account the quality people he has retained on his staff over the years, and the kindness he has displayed -- albeit appearently not to you. (emphasis added as soon as I stopped laughing) Oh, Url, you've really done it this time! I love you for that one. Honestly, you're the greatest. Thanks. The 'quality people'? Oh my god, Url, I can't catch my breath yet!

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 20:32:43 (EDT) From: URL Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yeah, a lot of quality people -- ask your ex buddies (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:36:15 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Jim Subject: SF Board of Supes Message:

Jim: I love the governing body of this City. The current president, whom I support politically and with donations, used to be a stand up comedian -- as well as a teacher and member of the school board. Anyway, they investigate everything under the sun, so I do not think this turn of events is particularly significant. I suspect Joe would agree with me on this. Marianne

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:48:57 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Yeah, but do you love da' Mayor? Message:

Marianne, I'm a little depressed about the upcoming mayoral election. What real choice do we have? Frank Jordan?, please. Why did Tom decide not to run? Isn't he a neighbor of yours?

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:58:05 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: JW Subject: Re: Yeah, but do you love da' Mayor? Message:

Hi Joe! Fabulouso weather we're finally enjoying, isn't it? SF is glistening in the sun! It is only marred by the f****** Blue Angels dive bombing the City. Actually, I do love da Mayor. I also very much admire and support Tom. I think that Tom decided he was unable to generate the kind of cash he needed to run against the evil Clint Reilly and Willie's well oiled political machine. Do you ride Muni downtown to work? I use my car for everything, but I think if I had to ride Muni, I'd be pretty pissed. I see the problems with Willie, but Reilly is a total asshole and well, Frank... one word sums it all up: SHOWER. Lucretia Bermudez gets kudos for making her presence known. Politics in SF is never boring! What about that road trip to see the documents in Malibu? I actually want to discuss getting the docs with you. Call me. Marianne

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 14:08:45 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Re: Yeah, but do you love da' Mayor? Message:

I've been really disappointed in Willie. But there isn't a viable alternative. Actually, I think Muni has improved immensely in the last year, even the J-Church! It was Wille's inflated promises that got him in trouble, and possibly some of his cronie friends. I also hate the Blue Angels. Try to be on a speaker phone as they soar outside your window on the 21st floor! Where is DiFi when we need her? What road trip are you talking about? I must have been out drinking my Jamba Juice when you posted that!

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 14:20:41 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: JW Subject: Re: Yeah, but do you love da' Mayor? Message:

I'm with you on your Willie criticisms. I think it was alot easier to macro-manage in Sacto than to micro-manage the City. What I love about him is that he has put women and people of color in positions of power all over the City. I also love his commitment to having those trouble-shooting, or just listening, visits with anyone who wants to talk to him. He may act regal sometimes, and he runs in rich company, but all the mayors do that. He also is very committed to the neighborhoods and kids. He's out there doing stuff and talking to regular folks all the time and we just don't read about it the way we do the more outrageous things. I'm glad Tom didn't run because he's such a great force in the Supes. I'm betting he'll be in the next race. Road trip = go to EV headquarters and see the docs they're supposed to make available to the general public about their finances. You suggested it down below and I seconded the motion. As for the Blue Angels, DiFi loves cops and military. Boxer is more likely to be irritated with them like we are, but probably wouldn't do anything either. When I worked downtown, the buildings would shake, rattle and roll. Don't worry -- they buzz Bernal and Noe too, even this weekend you won't escape it! Marianne

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 14:29:12 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Re: Yeah, but do you love da' Mayor? Message:

Back in the 80s, DiFi went ballistic when one of the Blue Angels flew UNDER the Golden Gate Bridge. She had an absolute hissy fit and threatened to bar them from flying over he city at all! I'm not so sure Willie is committed to the neighborhoods -- I haven't seen any evidence of that. He seems to me to be more interested in downtown, and big projects like the Giants Stadium and that new Candlestick park, which has never made sense to me. I just saw that Money Magazine has rated SF the best city in the country to live in! [Yeah, if you can afford the housing prices it's pretty good, but 90% of the people are excluded because of the prices.] Oh, yeah, the documents. Okay, you call Linda Gross (lawyer to lawyer) and tell her to get the documents ready. When she gives the go-ahead, let's go!

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 20:12:16 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: JW Subject: URL took your bait, JW Message:

I never read URL's posts, but I would bet it is a screed against you for comparing Rotwat to Pinochet, or something like that. He did exactly as expected. Keep up the good work, JW.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 10:34:48 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: All Subject: Golden Way, and more Message:

Here is the song, From Guru Puja ’74 Song Book, $ 2.50 Compiled and Edited by Annie Bishop, Mort Jonas, and Chuck Nathan. Layout by David Davis. Drawings by Christi Peine. Copyright Divine Light Mission, Inc., 1974 All rights reserved. *By permission of Shri Hans Records, Divine Light Mission, Inc., 1973, 511 16th Street, Denver, Colorado. **By permission of Shri Hans Records, D.L.M, Inc., 1607 Race Street, Denver, Colorado. ***By Permission of Divine Light Mission. Inc., 1973, 511 16th Street Denver Colorado. Golden Way Verse 1. You call to us, Oh Lord Like the flower calls to the bee. And we rush to You, Oh Lord, Like the rivers rush to the sea. Chorus. And though we'll try every day To walk Your golden Way Only by Your Grace, By Your Mercy, can we approach You. Verse 2. You're the only one, dear Master, You're the one that we need. Draw the veil away, true lover, Plant Your Holy seed. Chorus. Verse 3. Wake us from our dream, Oh Father, Show us why we're alive. Hear us breathe Your Name, Oh Father, Let us come back Inside. Chorus. Verse 4. Your love Is all, Maharaj Ji, We've only sorrows to give. But now we weep for joy, Maharaj Ji, And You're the reason we live. Chorus. Verse 5. When we see You smile, Maharaj Ji, Confusion's so far away. Let us sing Your praise forever, And make You smile every day. Chorus. Verse 6. Soon the world will know, Oh Lord, That there's no reason to room May we serve You well, Oh Lord, To call Your lost children home. Chorus. Verse 7. You call to us, Oh Lord, Like the flower calls to the bee. And we rush to You, Oh Lord, Like the rivers rush to the sea. Chorus. +++++++++++++++ TABLE OF CONTENTS AMAZING GRACE AND THE MUSIC ARTI AS BEAUTIFUL AS YOU DAISIES DO YOU WANT TO SEE THE MAJESTY DOVE SONG FIRST TIME I SAW HIM GOLDEN WAY GREEN WERE THE HILLS GURU IS THE FATHER OF ALL GURU MAHARAJ JI HAS THE HOLY NAME GURU MAHARAJ JI YOU ARE SO BIG HALLELUJAH I COME TO MY LORD IF YOU CALL MY NAME I LOVE YOU MY LORD KING OF KINGS LILA LITTLE TEARS OF HAPPINESS LORD OF THE UNIVERSE NAMASTE NATURAL WAY NEVER ENDING WELL NOW THAT I'VE FOUND HIM OH LORD WE'VE BEEN WAITING SO LONG ONE IN THE SPIRIT PEACE AND BLISS IS SATGURU PEELING THE MOLD PEOPLE, COME SEE YOUR CREATOR PEOPLE, LISTEN TO THE MESSAGE OF THE LORD PERFECT LORD PREMIE'S SONG SHINING GRACE SPREAD THIS KNOWLEDGE SUBTLE PRAYER THAT'S THE WAY OF THE LORD THERE'S A LIGHT IN YOU TRISTAN'S SONG TRUE LOVE TWAMEVA MATA TWO RIVERS VOICE OF THE WIND WE BELONG TO ONE FAMILY WE LOVE YOU GURU MAHARAJ JI WHO IS GURU MAHARAJ JI? Oh my brothers, The uprising divine day… WHO IS GURU MAHARAJ JI? Who is the artist of creation … YOU ARE MY ONLY LIGHT YOUR GRACE

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:34:08 (EDT) From: Grace Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: 1997 Words to Golden Way (New & Improved Version) Message:

Verse 2 changed to: You're the only one dear master You're the one that we need Draw the veil away true lover Bring your love close to me (instead of planting holy seed) Verse 3 changes the words 'Oh Father' with 'Maharaji' Verse 4 changed to: Your love is all Maharaji We've only longing to give And now we weep for joy Maharaji With a deeper reason to live (not 'and you're the reason...) Verses 6 and 7 were totally deleted

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Date: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 02:56:40 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: Grace Subject: Planting Holy Seed????? Message:

And I thought 'rock me Maharaji and roll me tonight' had sexual connotations!m Plant your holy seed??????

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 10:54:30 (EDT) From: It makes me wanna puke.... Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Draw away the veil true lover and plant your Holy Seed? Message:

JM- thank you. Maybe we should have all of the words to all of the songs on line. Frankly, I started to read the list and quickly shut the window. Sort of like opening a Pandora's box of memories. It seems that music, just like an aroma, has a very powerful ability to bring back memories.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 11:54:59 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: It makes me wanna puke.... Subject: Have your barf bags ready! Message:

Pick up some titles for my Devotional Songs JSCA

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 04:19:56 (EDT) From: Enough Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: Have your barf bags /FOCUSready! Message:

The first time I remember hearing this song was at Kissimmee I. I thought the first line of FOCUS was-- 'focus your mind on the form of Maharaji'. Did anyone else have this hallucination?

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 06:43:27 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Enough Subject: FOCUS: still played Message:

Focus is still played at events, instrumental version.... I guess it's also on one of the CDs I own.

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 16:01:52 (EDT) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Subliminal FOCUS: still played Message:

Gosh, I didn't know that it had lyrics. Sure seems like a subliminal mindf**k where years ago He tells you that he is God and programs that belief with events, satsang, music, etc. And then He changes his mind and says he is not God, but pulls out all the little pre-programmed triggers to evoke a desired response. Here's a 13 second WAV file (140k very slow load) sample of Focus from the heartfelt CD by One Foundation (copyright MCMXCI whenever that was ILC Productions dba Visions International.) P.S. I've got a sound card now!

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 07:31:26 (EDT) From: Enough Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: FOCUS: still played Message:

What a classic thought control technique via music and our brain's ability to remember and associate is FOCUS in particular. Do you remember the first line as I do? Where you at Kissimmee I?

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 09:09:09 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Enough Subject: Re: FOCUS: still played Message:

Oh yes, I was there ! Focus on the form of Margariiiiiiini..........

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 11:37:12 (EDT) From: Perry Mason Email: None To: all Subject: Exhibit One Message:

' And for the record sir, your name is Prem Pal Singh Rawat' ' Yes' ' Speak up sir' ' ahem...Yes' 'Thank you, and from the years 1969 to 1985 you were known as Guru Maharaj Ji, and then changed your title to Maharaji?' 'Yes' 'You'll have to speak up sir. The defense has stated that you never represented to your follwoers that you were God. Your Honor, at this time I would like to introduce into evidence exhibit One, the Guru Puja Song Book. Mr Rawat, here is a copy of the song book for you to follow along in. Would you please sir turn to page 5 and read the word to the song ' Golden Way' starting with the third verse please sir' ' Draw away the veil dear lover and plant your holy seed' ' OBJECTION! Relevance!!!' from the defense. ' Your honor, the relevance will be clear soon.' ' Mr. Rawat, in the years 1972 to 1980 were these songs sung at your festivals?' 'yes, they were sung at events' 'So you are saying they were sung at events not festivals?' I gotta go now...hey anyone can finish this..it is easy!

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 16:11:38 (EDT) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Perry Mason Subject: You cannot stop working. You are under contract. Message:

Please, please don't stop! (No, not that way.) This is all going on the House of Maharaji Drek - The Trial of Prem Pal Singh Rawat aka God.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 12:06:34 (EDT) From: Susan Email: None To: Perry Mason Subject: Re: Exhibit One Message:

'Mr. Rawat, can you explain to the jury the difference then between an event, a program and a festival? Were these not the names of the get togethers you had with your devotees over the years?' 'Students, not devotees' ' I would like to introduce into evidence the devotional song Arti. Please mark this exhibit #2. Prem, here is a copy for your refernce' Oh please please some lawyer write this, I do not know what I am doing, I am just going from law and order, Perry Mason and the OJ trial. One of you probably really knows how to set these traps!

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 15:45:34 (EDT) From: more Email: None To: Susan Subject: Re: Exhibit One Message:

'back to this Holy Seed that your devotees sand to you to plant as their 'true Lover'. According to the testimony of Grace Hardtotellifsheisanexornot, this line was changed, as many were, in the '90s to something less nauseating to imagine as one sang the words. Why sir, were the wods to so many of these songs changed in the '90s?' 'I evolved' 'You evolved?' 'yes' 'How does one evolve from being the Lord of the Univerise to being an ordinary man sir'

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 15:54:02 (EDT) From: more Email: None To: more Subject: Re: Exhibit One Message:

'Mr. Rawat, at any time after you discovered that you were not God did you apologize to your followers' 'no' 'Mr. Rawat, at any time after you discovered that you were not God did you make a clear cut statement to your followers that you had made this discovery?' ' It has always been about THAT experience, and the knowledge, I ask my students to follow their hearts' 'Your honor, intruct the witness to answer the question'

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 16:14:35 (EDT) From: more Email: None To: more Subject: Re: Exhibit One Message:

'mr. Rawat, we have here a video of a festival, excuse me event, in 1978 in Philaedelphia, do recall this event' 'yes' 'Your honor I would like to introduce this as exhibit 2001. Please Mr. Rawat, turn your attention to the monitor'. A video of the Satsang in Philly that year is shown. Afterward, the Lord debuts in his Mala costume. The cries and shrieks and Ki Jais resound in the background. A few tearful shaking faces are shown of premies' 'Mr. Rawat, was that you giving that speech and was that you dancing in the costume afterward' 'yes' 'I notice sir, that the premies sing and I quote, Our Lord is the Maker, of all things created, he keeps them and brings them all home to his word. Our Lord is the superior, power in Person, I bow down before such a wonderful Lord. My question is, since the song states they are bowing down to the superior power in person, the maker of all things created, and they all bow down to you at the end of the song, was it not obvious to the most casual of observers that these people thought you were the Messiah?' ' I was not responsible for what they thought'

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 12:52:07 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Susan Subject: More evidence Message:

on my devotional songs' page .... and more coming.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 08:57:17 (EDT) From: Darsai Email: None To: All Ex-es Subject: Hope Message:

'It's never too late to be what you might have been.' George Eliot

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 06:17:49 (EDT) From: The general Manager Email: None To: All Subject: cults Message:

What's the definition of a cult? Any religion you don't like.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:23:16 (EDT) From: Richard Email: None To: The general Manager Subject: Yeah..Pretty much Message:

I think you hit the nail just about on the head there. It usually requires that a bunch of people set of to do what they think that they want to do but end up doing what someone else wants them to do. regards Richard

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 00:17:49 (EDT) From: CD Email: None To: Richard Subject: Re: Yeah..Pretty much Message:

>but end up doing what someone else wants them to do. Sounds familiar. Ah yes, governments, the Woodstock festival and a party thrown by Jim Heller. CD

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 05:18:40 (EDT) From: Richard Email: None To: CD Subject: Re: Yeah..Pretty much Message:

These are all, indeed, perfect examples CD, and your point? regards Richard

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 00:20:29 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: Very funny Message:

Tell me that you're not trying to smudge out the word 'cult' so that it doesn't mean anything and can't bother you. Tell me that, Chris. Go ahead, tell me.

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 00:25:36 (EDT) From: CD Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: fun bunny Message:

I can tell that you don't get it. OK, you're it! Now go get some of that Tequila for logics sake.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:14:20 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: The general Manager Subject: Re: cults Message:

I agree with Joey's statements about cult 'characteristics,' but from what I have read and from my own experience, cults have three essential characteristics. 1. There is an unquestioned and unusually fervent dedication and subservience to the cult leader, who usually has very little, if any, direct contact with the members; 2. There is little or no tolerance for questioning or criticism of the cult, and especially the cult leader; 3. The members of the cult feel they have something special or wonderful that most other people don't have, and the cult members therefore get to feel superior to or more blessed than other people. There are other characteristics, but I think these are pretty much essential. I agree that some religions can fit the requirements of a cult, but I disagree with Jim that most religions are cults. I think the Unitarians, for example, which teaches individual thinking, rationality and the questioning of beliefs on an individual basis, is not a cult.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 11:27:45 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: The general Manager Subject: Almost Message:

I'd say it'd be fair to call a cult any religion that persuades its adherents to accept dogma. Is that pretty much every religion? Well there you go then.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 07:47:11 (EDT) From: Joey Email: None To: The general Manager Subject: Re: cults Message:

Bullshit gM. Now check this out. ____________________________________________________________ Cult-101 Checklist of Cult Characteristics Resources about psychological manipulation, cult groups, sects, and new religious movements. Mind-Manipulating Groups: Are you or a Family Member a Victim? The following statements, compiled by Dr. Michael Langone, editor of Cultic Studies Journal, often characterize manipulative groups. Comparing these statements to the group with which you or a family member is involved may help you determine if this involvement is cause for concern. Place a checkmark beside all items that characterize the group in question. If you check many of these items, and particularly if you check most of them, you might consider examining the group more closely. Keep in mind that this checklist is meant to stimulate thought, not 'diagnose' groups. We suggest that you check all characteristics that apply to your or your loved one's group, then print this browser page for future reference. You may find that your assessment changes over time, with further reading and research. The group is focused on a living leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment. The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members. The group is preoccupied with making money. Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. Mind-numbing techniques (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, debilitating work routines) are used to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s). The leadership dictates sometimes in great detail how members should think, act, and feel (for example: members must get permission from leaders to date, change jobs, get married; leaders may prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, how to discipline children, and so forth). The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and members (for example: the leader is considered the Messiah or an avatar; the group and/or the leader has a special mission to save humanity). The group has a polarized us- versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with the wider society. The group's leader is not accountable to any authorities (as are, for example, military commanders and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream denominations). The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify means that members would have considered unethical before joining the group (for example: collecting money for bogus charities). The leadership induces guilt feelings in members in order to control them. Members' subservience to the group causes them to cut ties with family and friends, and to give up personal goals and activities that were of interest before joining the group. Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group. Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members Copyright ©1997-99 AFF, Inc. Copyright ©1997-99 AFF, Inc.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 11:11:52 (EDT) From: Shp Email: None To: Joey Subject: Re: cults Message:

Based on the posted prerequisites of a cult, it would appear that Microsoft is a cult and Bill Gates is the accepted master of his realm.. of which we are all guests or members to some degree. Come to think of it, every major corporation or wannabe pretty much fits into the mold of a cult as much as its corporate population will allow itself to be stretched and the management can get away with. Everybody wants to rule the world. So what else is new? In present society, the word 'cult' itself is a scarlet letter.....Kind of like the word 'witch' in Salem, Massachusetts in the colonial days. Women (and men, warlocks) who knew about herbs, healing, nature, the heavenly influences were burned at the stake out of ignorance and hate. Many were the oppostie of what they were accused of being. Early Christians (before the establishment of any serious physical church or religious organizations) were also considered to be a cult and were persecuted, fed to lions, etc. Or the word 'communist' in the McCarthy era....Anyone who spoke critically of the US government in the 1950's during Senator Joe McCarthy's time was branded a 'commie'. Good and decent patriotic citizens had their lives ruined by being branded as part of the cult of communism. Far as I know, free will is still the game and every human being can play. What we give our energy to is up to us as individuals. There will always be someone who disagrees, who has another viewpoint. There will always be arguments pro and con everything for those who argue. There will always be dirt to sling for those who sling dirt. There will always be imperfections in the physical plane for those who point out imperfections. And there will always be the peace that passes understanding for those who seek it. If I have to live in the hurricane, which is what the world is right now in terms of change, I want to live in the eye where it is calm. To me, this is natural. The cult of the hurricane's eye.....or better yet, to live above the whole thing.....the cult above the storm.....'the cult that's a cult (cut) above the rest'. Cultch you later. Shp the mere empath

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 23:44:21 (EDT) From: Joey Email: None To: Shp Subject: response to Shp Message:

Shp, Thank you for your post,which indeed did reflect alot of sincerity and insight on the subject...specifically the definition of the word 'cult'. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but but there were three principal points that you made, and I would summarize them as follows. Firstly, you said that the word 'cult' as defined by the prerequisites highlited in my post could be applied to a great many groups and organizations in society, and basically I would agree with you...although it should be noted that for any group to be harmful in its mind manipulating effect, almost ALL the characteristics mentioned in my post would have to be present, as I believe is the case with m and his premies. Secondly you pointed out, and correctly so, that the pejorative use of labels has led to the worst kind of atrocities visited upon human beings by their fellow human beings. Being a chid of survivors of the nazi Holocaust, I couldn't agree with you more. Its really your third point that I have to take issue with. As you said: If I have to live in the hurricane, which is what the world is right now in terms of change, I want to live in the eye where it is calm. To me, this is natural. The cult of the hurricane's eye.....or better yet, to live above the whole thing.....the cult above the storm.....'the cult that's a cult (cut) above the rest'. (emphasis my own) Sorry pal, but a cult that brought us ashrams, that exposed us to psychopathic personalites like Fakiranand and Jagdeo, David Smith and Ann Johnston, that witnessed far too many premie suicides, that was so obsessed and still is today with the material enrichment of a leader who found it necessary to crap in gold toilets while he was flying around the world purportedly to bring the 'king of all knowledge' to the world, not really caring about the emotional and financial impoverishment of so many premies while allowing a few of his accomplices to prosper and lord over the rest(eg. Dettmers and Nathan),and I could go on ...but I really don't see how such a cult, is a 'cult (cut) above the rest.' The record just is NOT there, to warrant such a statement. Like yourself Shp, I too would like to live in the 'eye where it is calm'. And I still believe as m said, that the peace I am wanting is 'within'. I just don't see what he has to do with it. Or his cult.

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 15:43:42 (EDT) From: Shp Email: None To: Joey Subject: Re: response to Joey Message:

Its really your third point that I have to take issue with. As you said: If I have to live in the hurricane, which is what the world is right now in terms of change, I want to live in the eye where it is calm. To me, this is natural. The cult of the hurricane's eye.....or better yet, to live above the whole thing.....the cult above the storm.....'the cult that's a cult (cut) above the rest'. (emphasis my own) Sorry pal, but a cult that brought us ashrams, that exposed us to psychopathic personalites like Fakiranand and Jagdeo, David Smith and Ann Johnston, that witnessed far too many premie suicides, that was so obsessed and still is today with the material enrichment of a leader who found it necessary to crap in gold toilets while he was flying around the world purportedly to bring the 'king of all knowledge' to the world, not really caring about the emotional and financial impoverishment of so many premies while allowing a few of his accomplices to prosper and lord over the rest(eg. Dettmers and Nathan),and I could go on ...but I really don't see how such a cult, is a 'cult (cut) above the rest.' The record just is NOT there, to warrant such a statement. Like yourself Shp, I too would like to live in the 'eye where it is calm'. And I still believe as m said, that the peace I am wanting is 'within'. I just don't see what he has to do with it. Or his cult. ___________________________________________________________ Dear Joey: In all honesty, I was not referring to Maharaji as the 'cult above the rest'. But also in all honesty, realistically speaking, don't you expect some wacknuts to show up in a large group given the laws of averages and large numbers? For each of these basket cases you so ably point out, how many thousands of other carbon units are functioning normally and above normal and actually having 'that' experience? This of course does not excuse the sins of the few, but can we scope out and survey the big picture as well? The 'cult above the rest', it's a dream of mine, an idealized dream, in which everything works the way we all hoped it would, without flaw....something impossible in the material plane, for some reason. Everything, everyone in my life has let me down, fallen short in one way or another to some degree, and I them. I dare anyone to honestly tell me their experience is any different. Life is not perfect in terms of relationships. I am learning to accept that. My grandparents came to America in the early 20th century believing they were free from the bullshit they were running from. Then my grandfather got murdered at the age of 26, my dad who was 7 at the time saw it happen. Who could they sue, America? Can the folks who were in the path of Hurricane Floyd sue God? All bets are off, they were never on, and I am just floating around in space on a piece of dirt surrounded by 6 billion people, high technology and starving homeless masses, grateful for the heat and light of the sun, the air in my lungs, the food from the earth, and my life. And something tells me to keep it real simple and basic, take care of myself and my own, reach out to help others as able, and be kind to all. Shp

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Date: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 02:20:02 (EDT) From: Joey Email: None To: Shp Subject: Final response to Shp Message:

Dear Shp, I believed that our discussion was focused on the essential characteristics of cults as they apply to m and his premies. Indeed I had no idea that your reference to the 'cult above the rest' actually represented your dream, as you say, an idealized dream, in which everything works the way we all hoped it would, without flaw....something impossible in the material plane, for some reason. I have no reason to take issue with your dream. Quite frankly as you've shared it with us on more than one occasion on these pages, I have found it quite inspiring. But I would like to refocus our discussion on the subject at hand, and I do believe that we have to deal with the key issues here , namely the treatment of, and behavior of members of m's cult, and where the ultimate responsibility and accountability, or lack thereof exists. While there may be a few who are genuinely experiencing what you yourself referred to as 'that experience', I believe that there have been over the years and continuing today, far too many who have experienced either in a subtle manner and even in some instances rather grossly, different forms of use and abuse. Now I can really get into this and highlite many such episodes that I'm personally familiar with, as well as the characters or 'wacknuts' involved, but thats being done persistently almost on a daily basis elsewhere on the pages of this forum. You yourself have expressed your concern and disdain in the Jagdeo affair, and most people here respect the fact that you went as far as expressing yourself directly to m on this matter, by writing him a letter. Again I don't want to get into chronicling all the instances of use and abuse in its many forms within m's cult, but I believe it would be denial on our parts to say that these are merely the exceptions to the rule. On the contrary, I believe they are the natural outgrowth of an idolatrous belief system, where what is good for m, is good for his followers. And what m seems to value for himself as being good, is essentially what JW has dubbed as his 'Sultan of Brunei lifestyle.' Its essentially his insatiable greed along with his desire to have total devotion from his followers, that fuels almost all of the headfuckery that exists within his cult. As such, its m and m alone who sets the stage, and the 'wacknuts' as you so aptly referred to them, play their parts. However Shp, I can see how this issue of responsibility is unclear to you. For some strange reason,you don't even know who to blame for the tragic event that brought about the murder of your grandfather, which your own dad as a young boy had to witness. And so you ask, Who could they sue, America? Shp it wasn't America who murdered your grandfather! It was his murderer(s) who did it!! Plain and simple!!! And it wasn't America who murdered my grandparents either, even though it could be argued that if Roosevelt had gotten off his complacent ass and acted sooner, they wouldn't have met their ends as they did. It was Hitler and his nazis who killed them! Period!! And please Shp, leave me alone with Hurricane Floyd and the prospect of suing God. You can't sue God or hold him accountable ...and we're talking here about what human beings do to other human beings, and NOT acts of God. Finally there's the issue of accountabilty, and in this regard m acts as if he WERE God, placing himself beyond accountability...again displaying one of the key characteristics of a harmful cult. Once again Shp, God can't be held accountable , can't be sued. But Maharaji aint God....and Gail's on the right track.

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 12:43:43 (EDT) From: Shp Email: None To: Joey Subject: Re: Reply to Joey Message:

Joey, I am replying below to the parts of your post that beg a response. I have cut and pasted the parts of your post that I am referring to for readers' convenience 'On the contrary, I believe they (use/abuse by wacknuts) are the natural outgrowth of an idolatrous belief system, where what is good for m, is good for his followers. And what m seems to value for himself as being good, is essentially what JW has dubbed as his 'Sultan of Brunei lifestyle.' Its essentially his insatiable greed along with his desire to have total devotion from his followers, that fuels almost all of the headfuckery that exists within his cult. As such, its m and m alone who sets the stage, and the 'wacknuts' as you so aptly referred to them, play their parts.' -Joey I do not see Maharaji looking for idolatry, altjhough many people shower it upon him anyway in an effort to express themselves. Doing pranam is an ancient form of respect and greeting, and not necessarily a form of worship. Moses did pranam to his future father in law when he first entered his tent. It is an old and misunderstood custom, and that is probably why he doesn't do it much anymore. As for premies and lifestyles, I believe that premies are a slice of the general population, and there are probably as many high, medium, and low income premies on scale with the rest of the world's people. And as for headfuckery (love that term), once again I see a scale percentage of the same kind of shit going on in the the world at large. I distinctly remember Maharaji saying that he is not any kind of specialized counselor of worldly problems, and that Knowledge would not necessarily guarantee one's prosperity, personality or clear complexion. So the headfuckers take their place along with the goodhearts in the organisms they invade thorughout the universe, including Maharaji's entourage. Blew me away when I realized that too. The headfuckers stand out more in this venue due to the sharp contrast they create from Mahraji's stated mission and message of light and love. I remember at programs when Maharaji would constantly hassle the instructors and his 'inner circcle of helpers' and insult them and so forth, I thought that was just some comic relief, but it was real and meant to embarrass them into acting right. And I thought he was just busting their chops to be one of the guys. I also think that there is a certain amount of envy and jealously of Maharaji's material things among some premies and ex-premies. I do not feel this envy or jealously and I do not think that you necessarily have any either. But it is out there. I have heard a saying that goes: '2000 years ago they were looking for a king and got a carpenter, now they are looking for the carpenter and getting a king.' It's all in the interpretation. I don't see Maharaji as greedy. I don't care if he craps in a gold toilet or a dixie cup. I don't think the gold faucets he has extracted from the earth is going to seriously upset the eco-balance I have never been wealthy, never gave him much, and have had some of the most incredible experiences of my life practicing Knowledge. I don't think I got the generic stuff because my Elan Vtial account isn't as fat as somebody else's. I know I got the good stuff, and that it was always there inside and he showed me how to access it. That's his gig, period. This is not a debate, Joey, it's my experience which is all I have, or anyone has. So we can talk without arguing, and compare our experiences to see how it all adds up. 'For some strange reason,you don't even know who to blame for the tragic event that brought about the murder of your grandfather, which your own dad as a young boy had to witness. And so you ask, Who could they sue, America? Shp it wasn't America who murdered your grandfather! It was his murderer(s) who did it!! Plain and simple!!!' -Joey My dad grew up and found out who did it and learned that he had died in a certain state prison. My point was that promises were made, dreams were invested in, that America was the big answer to all the problems...the American Dream, you know? Reality gets lost in the warm fuzzies and then when reality set in, everyone freaks. Like when you are watching a football game or a boxing match and somebody dies while in the game from an injury or whatever.....it's like, hey that's not supposed to happen. Says who? It's called being in denial. 'And it wasn't America who murdered my grandparents either, even though it could be argued that if Roosevelt had gotten off his complacent ass and acted sooner, they wouldn't have met their ends as they did.' -Joey I'm hip to that, minored in American History and am aware of US anti-semitism and foot-dragging going on in the late 30's and pre-Pearl Harbor. Matter of fact, my folks were married on Dec 7, 1941. 'It was Hitler and his nazis who killed them! Period!!' -Joey Evil flourishes where good people do nothing. 'And please Shp, leave me alone with Hurricane Floyd and the prospect of suing God. You can't sue God or hold him accountable ...and we're talking here about what human beings do to other human beings, and NOT acts of God.' -Joey OK, Joey. Just remember that this interpretation means human beings are not acts of God, but rather beings will free will ouside of God. Is that possible? 'Finally there's the issue of accountabilty, and in this regard m acts as if he WERE God, placing himself beyond accountability...again displaying one of the key characteristics of a harmful cult.' -Joey What specifically are you referring to that Maharaji is not accepting accountability for? The wacknuts and their actions that he has allowed up close to him? His wealth? Human frailty? What? I look forward to hearing from you. Shp

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Date: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 10:46:18 (EDT) From: Shp Email: None To: Joey Subject: Re: Reply to Joey Message:

Dear Joey: I just read your 'final' resply to me above. I will consider everything you have said and reply as soon as able. My son needs to use the computer. Shp

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Date: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 12:53:47 (EDT) From: Joey Email: None To: Shp Subject: Re: Reply to Joey Message:

Dear Shp, Alright, maybe I should have qualified it as 'Final response to Shp, before I go to bed':::)) It had been a long day and I was a bit tired. Hope you, your son and all your loved ones have a good day. Look forward to hearing from you. Joey

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 00:54:50 (EDT) From: Joey Email: None To: Shp Subject: PS: to Shp Message:

Re: your Bill Gates and Microsoft example. If someone's been with Microsoft for a while and then leaves....they'll get a severance package:::)) Take care pal.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 09:02:49 (EDT) From: Grace Email: None To: Joey Subject: Re: cults Message:

Only a couple of those descriptions fit when I 'joined'. Does that mean you joined a cult and I didn't?

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 00:41:55 (EDT) From: Joey Email: None To: Grace Subject: response to Grace Message:

Personally, I don't think I was able to recognize ANY of these descriptions when I JOINED, nor would I have wanted to even give them serious consideration. Heck,I just wanted that peace, that love, that understanding that m spoke of. And I was a good premie Grace. I did my best not to allow such considerations to get in the way. After all, I was told to 'never leave room for doubt in my mind.' But by the time I LEFT, I was able to recognize quite a few of these characteristics present in the world of m and his premies, if not all of them, as I do today. And that to me begs the following questions to be answerd by yourself. How many of these characteristics were YOU able to recognize by the time you left? Because as I pointed out to Shp, almost all the prerequistes mentioned in my post would have to be present for a group to be considered harmful. Therefore if by the time you left you could still only recognize a couple of them, then WHY DID YOU EVEN LEAVE? For what reason would you abandon ,as you described him yesterday, that 'enlightened soul' who gave you the 'gift of the meditation techniques'? Did he abandon you? It would be very interesting to hear your answer... that is if you can avoid speaking out of both sides of your mouth on this matter. But for now, Goodnite Gracey:::)

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 01:04:05 (EDT) From: Your ole pal, Nim!!:::)) Email: None To: Denise??:::)) Subject: PS: to Grace Message:

OMIGOD!! Grace, would you happen to know Denise? Ah common. You sure you don't want to give us one of those really neat 'Y'ALLs'...I mean just for old times sake? Wow, now that would really be an event!:::))

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 12:10:52 (EDT) From: Your ole pal Suzanne Email: None To: Your ole pal, Nim!!:::)) Subject: Peculiar Name Message:

Do you ever stop and think of how ironic it is that your nickname bestowed upon you in the cult is a bit.... peculiar? 'When wicked Nimrod cast our father Abraham into the open fire, Gabriel spoke up to the Holy One, 'Master of the universe, may I go down and cool the fire, to save ther righteous man from burning int it?' The Holy One replied, 'I am the Unique One in My world, even as he is the unique one in his. It is fitting that the Unique One deliver the unique one.' But since the Holy One does not hold back the reward of any creature, he said to Gabriel, 'Yours will be the privilege of saving three of his descendents'.' Sefer Ha-Aggadah The Book of Legends

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 13:29:01 (EDT) From: Nim Email: None To: Your ole pal Suzanne Subject: Re: Peculiar Name Message:

N-I-M = NOT INTO MAHARAJI And I bestowed it upon myself:::)) Now lets see how far you want to take this.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 18:32:48 (EDT) From: URL Email: None To: Grace Subject: Re: cults Message:

Let's face it folks, when Maharaji first came to the west before anybody had an incling of what Knowledge was really about, all it could have been for most people was a cult. Over the years a number of premies learned what Maharaji's message really was about, and by default they therefore extricated themselves from the 'cult' -- because it became real for them. They are the ones who thought for themselves, questioned the conventional wisdom of the group, and made it a prioroity to have their own understanding. For these people, Knowledge is a wonderful gift. So there were two groups who left the cult: 1) these premies who truly realised Knowledge, and 2) those who dumped the whole thing down the toilet. Now having said that, there is a third group: practising premies who still go through the motions but don't understand for themselves the real message. They are probably still in a cult. The numbers in this group are fewer and fewer due to the growth in the other two groups. Ultimately everybody will have to leave the 'cult' -- one way or the other.

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 01:41:59 (EDT) From: Joey Email: None To: URL Subject: response to URL Message:

You want to sterotypically charcterize people? Why can't we do it this way? 1)premies who truly realised Knowledge=m's accomplices 2)practising premies who still go through the motions but don't understand for themselves the real message=m's victims 3)those who dumped the whole thing down the toilet=ex-premies EXCEPT, we haven't really dumped EVERYTHING down the toilet. That which WAS precious to us as individuals, IS still precious. But we've understood that m and his cult have absolutely nothing to do with it.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 23:31:07 (EDT) From: General manager Email: None To: All Subject: Are cults bad? Message:

Take a group that would fit everyone's criteria of a cult, say the Hari Krishnas. I knew people in the 70's and 80's who were really messed up on drugs, or just messed up, and they got involved with the Krishnas. The cult gave them a foundation to explore their spirituality and a chance at happiness. Without this cult some would of died and some would of ended up in prison, and some would of lived wasted lives. Lets face it, our parents generation didn't seem to place much importance on spirituality and happiness, Christianity didn't appeal to many, so where do you go from there? Some liked to have a teacher and some didn't, but without these cults, many wouldn't of made it.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 23:39:56 (EDT) From: Susan Email: None To: General manager Subject: GM get real...do you really know anything about the Khrishas? (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 00:08:11 (EDT) From: GM Email: None To: Susan Subject: Re: GM get real...do you really know anything about the Khrishas? (nt) Message:

I was in the Khrishnas for a short time in the 70's. I found it too weird, especially the finger that touches a womans more sensitive spots is somehow dirty, but that's not my point. I had friends you may have died from drug abuse and didn't, and that's a big plus, because where there's life there's hope. I have Khrishna friends, friends into Guru Mia, Premies and Christian friends and there all relevant IMO. Like Lennon said (I think), 'whatever gets you through the night'.

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 00:10:33 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: GM Subject: That's stupid Message:

Absolutely stupid. Like, about too dumb to reply to. By the way, have you read Monkey on a Stick? You should.

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 01:20:30 (EDT) From: GM Email: None To: Jim Subject: Do you really won't to hurt me Message:

Don't worry, be happy chicken breath.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 23:55:51 (EDT) From: GM Email: None To: Susan Subject: Re: GM get real...do you really know anything about the Khrishas? (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 01:42:28 (EDT) From: Susan Email: None To: GM Subject: here is a link to read about the life of children in the Hare K cult Message:

I did read Monkey on a Stick. Frankly, I do think the Hare K's are sicker than the premies. But being the lesser of two evils doesn't make something not evil. http://www.trancenet.org/krishna/betrayal/excerpt3.shtml

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 04:47:50 (EDT) From: GM Email: None To: Susan Subject: Re: here is a link to read about the life of children in the Hare K cult Message:

I don't think you understand where I'm coming from. I'm not advocating Krishna Consciousness anymore than Christianity or a hole in the head, but I remember being brought up as a Catholic with Nuns and Christian Brothers for teachers, and that's not something I'd wish on anyone. I don't understand how you can talk of Krishna Consciousness and Premies as being 'evil'. They, and many religions are very positve experiences for many people and provide meaning and happiness for them. What makes your opinion anymore valid than someone in a 'cult'. 'Things turn out best for those that make the best of the way things turn out.' --Art Linkletter

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 10:30:24 (EDT) From: Susan Email: None To: GM Subject: I guess I don't Message:

I usually do not argue with premies as I am not among those that thinks it is a good time. I don't think I am going to change your mind. I do think there are such things as bad groups and within those groups there are almost always very dedicated members defending the group. Nazi's for example, probably gave direction to many a young boys life. Cults, I like JWs easy definition, are groups in which members probably DON'T have a valid opinion on the cult. You really can't. You are only allowed one opinion or the cult will find ways to make you no longer a part of the group. Stand up at the next event you go to and ask Rawat what he did about Jagdeo. You will find how acceptable it is to think for yourself in your cult. Evil is a big word but what could be more evil in our Judeo Christian society than presenting yourself as God when you are not? Please read the lines to Arti, if you allow a person to sing that to you and then bow to you than you are presenting yourself as the Messiah. He ain't the Messiah. So he is evil. The group serves mostly to worship and benefit him. It is evil too. I do not think most premies are evil, but they are involved with something evil. What I have read about Krishnas is even worse. I think the micro society that evolved from their teachings was crueler and nastier. As much as I think premies could have been better to their children the Krishna kids appeared to have been treated very cruelly in a more pervasive way. Really though, unless you are willing to leave room for doubt in your mind there is no point in our discussion.

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 20:15:22 (EDT) From: GM Email: None To: Susan Subject: Live and let live Message:

I'm not a premie, although I had a flirtation with M + K. >> Evil is a big word but what could be more evil in our Judeo Christian society than presenting yourself as God when you are not? Please read the lines to Arti, if you allow a person to sing that to you and then bow to you than you are presenting yourself as the Messiah. He ain't the Messiah. So he is evil. The group serves mostly to worship and benefit him. It is evil too. I do not think most premies are evil, but they are involved with something evil. << You have probably condemned most organised religions, and disorganised, as being 'evil' with that statement. As far as Jagdoe goes, have you heard what's going on in the Catholic church in Australia as concerns child molestation? Big scandals about priests molesting young boys in their care. But to say the Church is inherently evil is missing the point (I'm not a Christian either) completely. Most Christian priests would see themselves as moral people within the confines of their interpretation of the bible, but there are obviously some very disturbed priests as well. Christianity and any other religion, gives a moral framework for those that need such things, and many people do. And some people need to worship the head of their particular religion. For example, take Buddism, and many, many people feel the need to worship the Buddha, which is kind of strange, considering the words of Buddha.

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Date: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 12:31:43 (EDT) From: Susan Email: None To: GM Subject: Your logic is faulty Message:

I think more evil has been done in the name of organized religion than under the guise of any other excuse known to man. But I dissent from the general ex consensus in that I do think there are very big differences between mainstream religions and cults. I do not have time to write a lot on this one though. Basically, the worst cults serve to benefit and worship an individual, tend to discourage bonds with one's family making the cult the 'true' family, generally have some concept such as being 'in your mind' in which all doubts and questioning are quashed as being 'evil' themselves. I do not know of a mainstream religion that serves to benefit and worship one human, only one that worships one who has long ago passed away. I am not an expert on religions, I have only been a part of a cult, never a religion. But at least from the outside Christianity ( unless it is a sect that has become a cult unto itself ) worships God and Jesus ( cynically I must say maybe it is safer to have a dead perfect master, can't insist you send bucks for a gold toilet) they encourage family ties, and if modern Christianity is a cult is a damn poor cult, because the cult member seem to never be able to agree on anything, politics, schools, abortion, anything.....and I do know Christians and Jews who welcome critical thinking. In fact, the best critical thinker I ever met was a Jesuit. Maybe the difference between a cult and a religion comes down to if it smells like a cult, talks like a cult, and looks like a cult its a cult....works for me. I think Amways a cult and it has nothing to do with religion. As far as Jagdeo. The Catholics who covered up and moved around the pedophile priests were cowards. What they did WAS evil, as it resulted in more molestations. How Rawat dealt with a child molesting mahatma was very similar. But truly, you cannot seperate the situation from the problem inherent in the fact I thought I was reporting it to God. Probably Randy did too, Judy too. Ordianrly, if I had met with Jagdeo lets say as a teacher at school, and learned it wasn't just me but younger kids and more serious, as I did in 1977, I would not have kept so quiet about it. I doubt Randy or Judy would have either. I know I thought I was reporting this to GOD. If I reported it to God then I had to trust he did what was right. It was also not up to me how to punish him, it was up to God. The whole problem becomes very insidious when one thinks they have reported it to God. I have a very hard time living with this fact, reading Abi's story, knowing my friend in Miami, and knowing that likely there are loads of women in this world with memories of Jagdeo molesting them, and perhaps, if the cult isn't really listening on this, still Jagdeo has special little friends. I wish that somehow I could have become immediatley deprogrammed when it happened and gone to the police. But to me Rawat was so much more powerful than the police. Sad, isn't it. In a way, what happened among the Catholics is more disgusting. I do not think anyone thought the Bishops and such that moved these molester priests around were God. They just did not want to have to deal with the scandal. A clearer case of self interest. Perhaps they thought that they could get the Priest to repent and he would be cured. A mix of self interest, dangerous religious beliefs, and ignorance about pedophiles? Not too different than what probably happened with Jagdeo. But look what happened to the kids. I think it is evil. I stand by the word. Read what Abi wrote again and tell me that isn't evil. And tell me letting the man travel the world was not evil.

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Date: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 04:20:56 (EDT) From: GM Email: None To: Susan Subject: My Lour logic is faulty-nothin' new there Message:

I agree with lots of what you said concerning religion, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it evil. Child molesters should pay the ultimate price IMO, as our children are precious and I don't think we should gamble with their welfare. You bring up an interesting subject when you say you thought M was God. Did you really? I'm pretty gullible, but if some one had of told me that some little Indian kid was God, I would of got them a cold drink and led them to the nearest shady tree. You sound like an intelligent woman, so why did you fall for that? Most decisions we make are at least a little self interested, so what was in it for you? I hear that some of the old ashram premies figured out that the whole trip was flawed, and thought it was bullshit and yet stayed on for years, in some cases. Why? Were they prepared to live a lie, because they enjoyed the lifestyle or what? I don't undestand.

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Date: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 11:44:09 (EDT) From: Susan Email: None To: GM Subject: Re: My Lour logic is faulty-nothin' new there Message:

Okay, different people use the word evil with different connotations. Why did I think Rawat was God? My initial response was to remind you I was 13 when I got involved with the cult, but I do not think that I was alone in this belief it was held by most of the premies I knew. Really, in 1975-1979, logically, a person had three choices, Rawat ws God, Rawat was pretending to be God, or thinking to oneself I know he isn't God but this Guru trip is such a hoot I will go along for the ride. Remember, we prostrated ourselves to him, we prayed for his grace, we sang arti ( superior power in person ), kissed his feet, actually we always capitalized His name, in every way we treated him as the Messiah. Many people spoke of his 'power' and believed he could do miracles. If most people did not believe he was God they sure put on a good show! The other choice is he is a fraud. Well, why be a premie, if you think he is a fraud? Perhaps you have some financial self interest or a loved one in the cult? Go along for the ride? Not a fun ride. Better rides in my opinion available on the planet at less personal cost. But I knew a few who were there for the ride. I call them fringe premies. The proccess by which one falls for the lie that the Guru is God is I think exactly the same proccess by which most cults indoctrinate their victims. I wish I had a book to pull out about common indictrination techniques. But first, you need a person ( future cult member ) who is vulnerable. They say that most of us, if we look back, were at some crossroads in our lives when introduced to Rawat's trip. Me, I would say it was that I was in a new Junior High in search of a peer group. Being a serious minded sort of kid I was not finding one. When I arrived at the satsang hall all these cool hippie dress people smiled at me, hugged me, and treated me like I was special I felt like I was among a peer group I could relate too. This is sort of scary, but it is the truth. I really had an immediate feeling of bonding with the premies. I always found life among my contemporaries ( kids ) to be harsh, full of bullies and competitiveness. I liked the surface appearance of love and acceptance among the premies. Mind you, premies turn out to be just as competitive as a junior high clique, but it isn't immediately obvious. So you say, fine, but why don't you just hang out with them, why buy the trip? Well, they all had Knowledge, and all my new friends and hero's tell me that this Knowledge is the secret of life. With it, I will always be happy, with it, I will be special, knowing a truth that the world does not know. So I want it. Now one gets to be selected by the Mahatma. I think this was a VERY important part of the hook. This is where the hours upon hours of waiting and stress come in. It is stressed by the Mahatma you have to have, no doubts, a guileless heart and in my K session many had to say they would cut off their heads for the Guru. Wonderful screening proccess. Brilliant in fact, for weeding out those who are still thinking for themselves and not just accepting the crap. There was also a real power in watching the Mahatma tell someone else they were not ready, or not pure enough, and then I was. I was pure. I was ready. I was special. Special, or just a bigger fool, which do you think I chose to believe? The K session. By this point you have been on a marathon and are in eager anticipation. All this Indian hocus pocus, strange language smells and ritual adds to the authenticity. But I remember well my first thought when the guy came round and pressed on my eyeballs and and I saw the light, well, first I thought, ouch!, but then I thought, 'this always happens when I rub my eyes'. Okay, that is a logical thought, but I already have the answer to that thought, I am in my mind, leave no room for doubt in my mind. If I raise my hand, and say, sir, I always see light when I press on my eye balls, I am ejected from my group, and admitting that up until this point I have been a fool of mammoth proportions. After the K session, everyone loves you, you are part of the group. The smiling friends want to know about your experience. It really is like the emporers new clothes. They all see the clothes, I don't, well, maybe I do, I am in my mind, I wish I were a good devotee like them, maybe someday I will be, I am just bad that I have these doubts, I will not tell anyone, my secret, the experience was beautiful. Believing the Guru is God is the same. I have bought that he has presented me with the secrets of the universe. Everyone else believes he is God. I have doubts, but I force them back. I have no doubts that my mind is evil just as the Guru points out in all his satsangs. He is right, my mind is ALWAYS doubting. He, God, doesn't have something wrong with him. I do. He is God and I am an imperfect devotee. I am among the elite group of devotees of the Living Perfect Master, There are many moments I am overcome by a feeling of bliss. There are many moments of doubt, the guru said I have to battle that mind. He is right. I bow down before such a wonderful Lord.

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Date: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 20:13:06 (EDT) From: GM Email: None To: Susan Subject: My logic is faulty-nothin' new there Message:

That was beautifully written and very informative, and it did help me to understand much that I didn't. You sound like a nice person Susan. I've had a few major hiccups in my life, and I could never seem to work out 'why me'. One day I woke up and realised that I really liked the way I was turning out and that I also liked myself. I can now look back at the 'disasters' in my life, and see that in strange ways they helped to make me who I am today. Many of the things that happen in our lives, that we percieve as negative, have the capacity to transform us in ways we can't even guess at, at the time. So it's possible that your experience with M and K isn't the negative experience you percieve it to be. The most life changing and positive experience I ever had was nearly loosing my leg in a motor bike race, in part because I couldn't yahoo around the place, and was forced to be alone with myself for a year. You just never know what's around the corner.

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Date: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 23:38:56 (EDT) From: Susan Email: None To: GM Subject: Re: My logic is faulty-nothin' new there Message:

Dear GM, I keep trying to move our conversation to the top of the board but I keep finding your responses here. If you want to write again can you move it to the top because me hard drive is too small for this format. Thanks for the praise. I love praise. I agree that the hardships we endure in life can do a lot to shape who we are. But I would not wish your hardships, or mine, on anyone. I guess that saying fits, 'that whch does not kill us makes us stronger'. Some people, after a loss of a limb like yours, might despair so they became lost in bitterness or took their own lives. Therer were premies who took their own lives too. I learned a lot from my time in the cult. I will never know how my life might have been different without it. But the same can be said of learning that takes place when a loved one dies, or any sort of tragedy strikes. It enobles some people, it ruins others. Few would wish the same lesson on another.

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Date: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 13:06:05 (EDT) From: Joey Email: None To: Susan Subject: And yours is right on Susan! Great post!! Message:

I also enjoyed this comment: ( cynically I must say maybe it is safer to have a dead perfect master, can't insist you send bucks for a gold toilet) Not only that, but I imagine its alot easier to take when they don't return your phone calls:::)) Regards, Joey

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Date: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 11:35:44 (EDT) From: Joey Email: None To: GM Subject: Re: Live and let live Message:

I'm not a premie, although I had a flirtation with M + K. Well, you are what you are, but quite frankly, it seems as though you're STILL having a 'flirtation with M+K.' Otherwise why would you be here? Because of your passionate interest in human rights? Because you feel that we're violating m's 'human rights' by speaking out against him and his cult? If thats the case let me say this in advance. Its people such as yourself who tarnish the image of all those who are involved in the struggle for human rights. In your message to Susan you say as follows: You have probably condemned most organised religions, and disorganised, as being 'evil' with that statement. As far as Jagdoe goes, have you heard what's going on in the Catholic church in Australia as concerns child molestation? Big scandals about priests molesting young boys in their care. But to say the Church is inherently evil is missing the point... And whats YOUR point? That two wrongs make a right? That because of what happened in the Catholic Church , the entire Jagdeo affair is somehow more acceptable? And here you offer us more words of wisdom: ...And some people need to worship the head of their particular religion. For example, take Buddism, and many, many people feel the need to worship the Buddha, which is kind of strange, considering the words of Buddha. Well if you feel that there's something wrong in that, let me say this: If two wrongs don't make a right...neither do three! It seems to me that for a 'general manager'...as far as this discussion goes ...you ain't managing well at all.

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Date: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 04:46:00 (EDT) From: GM Email: None To: Joey Subject: Re: Live and let live Message:

>>>Well, you are what you are, but quite frankly, it seems as though you're STILL having a 'flirtation with M+K.' Otherwise why would you be here? Because of your passionate interest in human rights? Because you feel that we're violating m's 'human rights' by speaking out against him and his cult? If thats the case let me say this in advance. Its people such as yourself who tarnish the image of all those who are involved in the struggle for human rights. <<< Hey, take it easy there hombre, the only reason I'm here is for a little chit chat. It's sometimes more stimulating to talk to people who don't agree with what you have to say. It's good to have your beliefs challenged, as it makes you think more deeply about those beliefs. Lots of people don't know why they believe certain things, they just do. >>>And whats YOUR point? That two wrongs make a right? That because of what happened in the Catholic Church , the entire Jagdeo affair is somehow more acceptable? <<<< Not at all. You talk to a Christian and point out that millions have been killed in the name of Christianity, and that Christianity has changed the way we see the earth (it was once seen as sacred), with dire consequences. You can talk till your blue in the face, but that Christian will be able to give many, many reasons why Christianity has been a force for good, in his opinion. Life just ain't black and white Joey. If people feel the need to worship Jesus, Buddha, whoever, then that's fine with me. Everyone is different with different needs. >>>It seems to me that for a 'general manager'...as far as this discussion goes ...you ain't managing well at all.<<< I didn't say I was a good General Manager, and it's not a competition. Just swapping a few ideas around is all. Might change my name to Genetically Modified.

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Date: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 11:53:12 (EDT) From: Joey Email: None To: GM Subject: Enough already Shp!! Message:

You talk to a Christian and point out that millions have been killed in the name of Christianity, and that Christianity has changed the way we see the earth (it was once seen as sacred), with dire consequences. You can talk till your blue in the face, but that Christian will be able to give many, many reasons why Christianity has been a force for good, in his opinion. Life just ain't black and white Joey. Shp, Your comparison of m and his trip to Christianity is totally odious. Jesus healed people, Maharajiis cult has made alot of people sick. Jesus advocated on behalf of the poor and the needy. Maharaji surrounds himself with wealthy pams(his accomplices) and the rest become victims...emotionally and financially. Early Christians were killed for their beliefs. Early premies committed suicide, because their principles and conscience were fucked over by the very master(and his accomplices) who had come to save them. When Jesus was held accountable, he ended up dying on a cross. When m's turn comes, he'll simply skip town with his millions. None the less its intersting to see Shp, that you're really not as honest or as 'real' as I was willing to give you credit for. Otherwise you wouldn't have to play games hiding behindn this 'General Manager ' moniker. Its also interesting to note that you're staking out a claim, that m and his premies represent an early phase of a 'new religion'. This despite the fact that Maharaji has claimed that he has no interest in creating a new religion. Then again, you guys really excell in speaking out of both sides of your mouth. You can talk till your blue in the face, but that Christian will be able to give many, many reasons why Christianity has been a force for good, in his opinion. Christianity began with a master who as I noted was considerably more compassionate, genuinely more concerned for his fellow man then m will ever be. And yet it disintegrated in so many ways, that there are those will spell out for you how it has become a force for evil, as much or if not more, then it has been a force for good. Again with m starting off at such a ridiculously low point right from the beginning...when his trip disintegrates, one has to wonder... how low can it go? Life just ain't black and white Joey. No thats true...but nor is it as colorful as some kind of psychedelic acid trip, where everything you see becomes distorted and confused. Might change my name to Genetically Modified Hey, why not try...'Genetically Muddled'??

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Date: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 17:21:03 (EDT) From: Shp Email: None To: Joey Subject: TIME OUT: THIS IS WHERE JOEY CALLS GM SHP IN ERROR. Message:

Somewhere along the line Joey must have been having a dialog with GM and myself (two separate conversations) and he used my name here in response to GM by mistake. Since I don't read every single post or even check it out daily, or do the view all thing I can understand how it slipped by. Shp

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Date: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 20:18:50 (EDT) From: GM Email: None To: Joey Subject: Shoosh, your givin' me a headache Message:

SHP sounds like a nice guy, but I'm not him and it's no skin off my nose what you want to believe. Happy new burp Joey.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:26:44 (EDT) From: Richard Email: None To: Grace Subject: Re: Descriptions Message:

No Grace, it just means that you 'think' you did'nt join a cult...yet. regards Richard

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:36:02 (EDT) From: Grace Email: None To: Richard Subject: Richard, I'm an ex (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 05:23:16 (EDT) From: Richard Email: None To: Grace Subject: Re: Richard, I'm an ex (nt) Message:

Gail, how can that be if you didn't join the cult. regards Richard

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 06:47:40 (EDT) From: Robyn Email: None To: The general Manager Subject: Re: cults Message:

Dear GM, Did you send me an email signed with this name a couple days ago? Also is this a joke or your real feelings? Love, Robyn

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 04:57:41 (EDT) From: GM Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Re: cults Message:

Robyn, I always thought that 'cult' was Scottish slang for vagina.

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 10:04:34 (EDT) From: Robyn Email: None To: GM Subject: Re: cults Message:

Christ! I wasn't expecting that! FUNNY! Love, Robyn

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