Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum
Archive: 8
From: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 To: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 Page: 1 Of: 5


Marianne -:- For Grace: ambition negated -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 03:13:42 (EDT)
__ Grace -:- Re: For Grace: ambition negated -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 12:01:31 (EDT)
__ __ bb -:- Re: For Grace: ambition negated -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 17:29:25 (EDT)
__ Gregg -:- Hypnosis vs. Happiness -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 11:03:34 (EDT)
__ __ Q -:- Re: Hypnosis vs. Happiness -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 16:35:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ Gregg -:- Re: Hypnosis vs. Happiness -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 21:42:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Q -:- Re: Hypnosis vs. Happiness -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 17:40:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Hi there, Gregg -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 21:56:58 (EDT)
__ Lee -:- Re: Just a hello -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 05:52:51 (EDT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Hi to you too, Lee -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 21:01:29 (EDT)

Brian -:- Raja Ji recommends Ex-Premie.Org -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 00:18:10 (EDT)
__ bb -:- Vouching -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 17:25:15 (EDT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Thank you, Mrs. Ex. Excellent Journey! (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 05:25:39 (EDT)
__ __ Caritas -:- Thank you for your Journey Entry -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 20:27:24 (EDT)
__ Joey -:- Re: Raja Ji recommends Ex-Premie.Org -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 17:21:43 (EDT)
__ __ Katie -:- Re: Raja Ji recommends Ex-Premie.Org -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 17:48:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- Re: Raja Ji recommends Ex-Premie.Org -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 18:00:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Raja Ji recommends Ex-Premie.Org -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 18:36:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: Raja Ji recommends Ex-Premie.Org -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 18:48:13 (EDT)

JHB -:- So premies don't propagate -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 20:54:12 (EDT)
__ Charlie -:- Re: So premies don't propagate -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 06:10:23 (EDT)
__ JW -:- Would You? -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 22:57:33 (EDT)
__ __ Enough -:- Re: Would You? -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 03:19:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- I know someone who did -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 18:43:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: I know someone who did -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 19:48:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ Grace -:- Re: Would You? -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 12:06:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: Would You? -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 12:35:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: I would most certainly NOT!! -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 17:36:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ grace -:- New premies still around, don't know (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 16:36:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Enough -:- M initiated cult members -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 17:44:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- TD Did -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 18:06:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- So did Jude -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 18:34:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Enough -:- M was pissed! -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 19:31:30 (EDT)

Way -:- Any spies? -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 13:45:19 (EDT)
__ JW -:- Re: Any spies? -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 16:21:20 (EDT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Soundalike experiment... -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 07:29:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ who knows -:- and how hard would it be to imitate an ex? Specially you!(nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 14:07:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Probably quite easy -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 04:58:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- And you would probably find... -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 16:05:36 (EDT)
__ __ Charlie -:- Re: Any spies? -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 06:28:13 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Brilliant! -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 22:01:20 (EDT)
__ __ Way -:- To JW -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 17:18:03 (EDT)
__ __ Grace -:- Dear Premies -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 17:10:32 (EDT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- ***Best*** and to DV - That will get you into big trouble! -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 17:00:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ DV -:- Re: ***Best*** and to DV - That will get you into big trouble! -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 22:52:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia G -:- Re: Copyrights - Visions/EV -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 11:50:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: Copyrights - Visions/EV -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 12:55:24 (EDT)
__ DV -:- Re: Any spies? -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 16:08:39 (EDT)
__ __ Howard Hacker -:- Re: Any spies? -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 20:14:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ [blank] -:- Alert -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 22:47:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dr. Evil -:- Re: Alert, schmalert! -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 06:08:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ Grace -:- Tunnel of Love -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 22:03:20 (EDT)
__ __ Way -:- Re: Any spies? -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 16:29:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ DV -:- Re: Any spies? -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 16:47:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Living simply --- for premies, not Rotwat -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 01:15:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ DV -:- Re: Living simply --- for premies, not Rotwat -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 07:21:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ DV -:- Re: Living simply --- for premies, not Rotwat -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 07:19:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- To DV -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 17:14:04 (EDT)
__ who knows -:- Re: Any spies? -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 14:37:05 (EDT)

Jim -:- Am I the only one? -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 11:39:08 (EDT)
__ Joey -:- Re: 'Am I the only one?' You bet you are you beautiful, magnificent sob!::)) -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 00:08:56 (EDT)
__ __ Katie -:- Thanks, Joey -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 13:10:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- Re: Thank YOU Katie -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 16:36:50 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Katie's a plant (don't worry, I won't say 'preemie ward' again) -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 11:13:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- I love you too, Jim -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 12:42:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Enough -:- Another Skins Fan -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 15:53:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Dallas sucks (ot) -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 17:38:18 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- I agree with you Jim -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 21:26:11 (EDT)
__ JW -:- Re: Am I the only one? -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 15:58:45 (EDT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Re: Am I the only one? -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 21:46:14 (EDT)
__ Katie -:- Sheesh, Jim! -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 14:29:11 (EDT)
__ Jethro -:- NO you're not the only one -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 13:14:10 (EDT)
__ __ Katie -:- Re: NO you're not the only one -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 15:43:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ Oh you just want a place where you can talk about me behind my back... -:- And that doesn't make me paranoid either -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 15:49:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Mr. Happy -:- No, but... -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 17:09:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Happy -:- Not me -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 10:07:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- sorry, Gerry! -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 15:58:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Your wish is my command... -:- Announcing... A New Forum!!! -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 16:55:22 (EDT)
__ Jim, you insensitive, brute beast, -:- you ARE the only one! -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 11:58:59 (EDT)
__ __ Lots of Reading -:- Musings of GMP on Virtual Communities -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 17:34:00 (EDT)

corvuscorvae -:- Does God exist? -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 10:50:41 (EDT)
__ corvuscorvae -:- Re: Does God exist? -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 10:57:44 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Re: Does God exist? Yes but not here -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 07:07:31 (EDT)
__ Jerry -:- Re: Does God exist? -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 20:20:23 (EDT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Re: Does God exist? -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 19:32:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Does God exist? -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 14:11:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: Does God exist? -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 19:12:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Does God exist? -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 19:42:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- 10% brain function -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 12:52:17 (EDT)
__ JHS Gabriel -:- Re: Does God exist? *(Omnipresent, Omniscient AND Omnipotent is The Answer !) * -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 12:32:17 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Question for fruitcake -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 21:50:44 (EDT)
__ __ Lucifer -:- I bow down before JHS Gabriel! -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 14:45:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ JHS Gabriel -:- Re: I bow down before JHS Gabriel! -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 07:37:33 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Not really -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 11:52:09 (EDT)

bb -:- Note to Cynthia and Gary -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 08:59:44 (EDT)

Enough -:- To Members of ABA(OT) -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 03:06:37 (EDT)
__ Enough -:- .....and Jim too -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 04:27:54 (EDT)

youngold -:- I know that voice -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 23:19:40 (EDT)

youngold -:- ' so help me, Joni' -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 23:04:48 (EDT)
__ JW -:- Re: ' so help me, Joni' -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 14:15:25 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- Are you repeating yourself? -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 07:17:13 (EDT)
__ __ bb -:- OT-Monmot,JHB -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 23:28:56 (EDT)
__ JB -:- Re: ' so help me, Joni' -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 02:52:47 (EDT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Expectations -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 08:31:59 (EDT)
__ __ Jethro -:- You are not human -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 13:24:30 (EDT)
__ Helen -:- Re: ' so help me, Joni' -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 23:33:43 (EDT)
__ __ JW -:- Re: ' so help me, Joni' -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 14:03:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- Re: ' so help me, Joni' -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 14:21:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: ' so help me, Joni' -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 14:31:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ D_Thomas -:- Ashram Meetings -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 07:56:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Not True -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 12:40:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: ' so help me, Joni' -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 18:25:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: ' so help me, Joni' -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 18:53:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- A relationship with my counters -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 20:14:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tami -:- Re: A relationship with my counters -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 20:21:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ California Redwood Forest -:- My sister Tami--ain't she something? -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 21:13:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tami -:- My sistir is a bich. -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 23:05:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Relevant Joni Mitchell quote -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 18:32:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: Relevant Joni Mitchell quote -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 18:40:23 (EDT)


Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 03:13:42 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: All
Subject: For Grace: ambition negated
Message:
they did not respond to my satsang, they emphatically rejected it.

I was hired for this job, and it was the jail that convinced me that M was not what he said he was. Working in the jails meant that I could help people to stay out of jail after they got released. To me, that was an important accomplishment to give to the world. As I worked in the jails, I saw that M was not trying to reach the people who really needed help and whose lives were miserable. I was committed to making a difference, on even the smallest scale, and there was no room for that in M's cult. He did not care about these lost souls, or others like them. My ambition to make this contribution was misunderstood and denigrated. I could not make a contribution to M's new house or cars when there were people in real need and he seemed to be the height of greed.

Ambition was discouraged because it meant that you might get too big for your britches, and see the world differently. As long as we were in our premie enclosed world, outside influences would not infect our unquestioning devotion to M. A little ambition can create lots of questions...

I encourage and support the power that you are experiencing in touching other peoples' lives. You are the one giving to them, not M. Share your gift. I am proud of you.

Love, Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 12:01:31 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: For Grace: ambition negated
Message:
Thank you, Marianne. I'm glad that my statement about ambition was understood by some. I didn't really mean it in terms of money and power (but money is ok, too). For me, ambition now has to do with helping others while I help myself. I would like to make more money than I have, but only if it can be helping others in the world. My career choice, like yours Marianne, has brought me a lot of personal satisfaction in feeling I am doing good for others.
It's too bad many people don't realize there are attorneys with heart out there. I think your choice of job is really neat and am glad there are people like you out there. Just as M said we must help save people one at a time, I believe this is true also (but obviously in a different way than he wants).
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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 17:29:25 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Re: For Grace: ambition negated
Message:
Hi Grace,
We know lawyers have heart, except of course our
very own Jim!

Ambition is a great thing and was an enemy of the lord
unless it was HIS ambition you were serveing.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 11:03:34 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Hypnosis vs. Happiness
Message:
Wonderful, Marianne.

My motivations for leaving the ashram (and the guru, in one fell swoop) were far less noble.

I met a young woman while working some stupid office temp job. She was about to move to the mountains to begin a teaching job. I realized (duh!) that to stay in the ashram was to forever deny myself the pleasures of a lover and a family.

On lunch break that week I read an article in a local weekly about how religious groups that posit a split between good and bad, religious and worldly, (the Word vs. the mind) were bad news. Hmmm, I thought to myself.

Now, years later, I couldn't be happier. Thank God I left. I have a wonderful daughter, a good marriage, a great teaching job where I love the students and they love me; I have a play running successfully in a local theater, a spiritual practice integrated with emotion and real life; I have a garden and a house and a beautiful piano; I see the mountains every day and walk in them occasionally...and all these things are Of The World..

Even though ashrams are no more, I could be living a life half-way, with my heart in a devotional practice to a halfwit guru. And how sad that would be!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 16:35:40 (EDT)
From: Q
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Re: Hypnosis vs. Happiness
Message:
What's your spiritual practice?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 21:42:41 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Q
Subject: Re: Hypnosis vs. Happiness
Message:
A quasi-Tibetan Buddhist thang.

And you?

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Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 17:40:53 (EDT)
From: Q
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Re: Hypnosis vs. Happiness
Message:
What's my spiritual practice? My own (eclectic) thang.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 21:56:58 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Hi there, Gregg
Message:
Hi Gregg! You neglected to mention that the wonderful woman who convinced you that sex, companionship and family life was superior to the ashram is a criminal defense attorney. That makes her tops in my book.

I struggled over ashram life alot. I had been a teenage hippie and enjoyed all that lifestyle had to offer. I was also raised Irish Catholic, and as I mentioned elsewhere, St. Bernadette (as in the movie 'The Song of Bernadette') was an inspiration to me. I wanted to be a good nun. I wasn't cut out for it. I mostly liked the ashram for the year I was there though.

You've built a good life for yourself and those you love, and you're teaching kids -- a high calling. You have those incredible Rocky Mountains to inspire you daily. Makes much more sense than lining Rotwat's pockets, doesn't it?

BTW, I watched 'The Song of Bernadette' recently after not having seen it for years. I now realize why I adored the movie so much. The local officials in Lourdes where she lived made her an outcast and said that she was undermining their authority by insisting that she had visions of the Virgin Mary. Just by telling the truth, she was demonized and made the authorities feel threatened. Guys were infuriated simply because she refused to capitulate to them. It was a good lesson to absorb.

Nice to hear from you, Gregg.

Love, Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 05:52:51 (EDT)
From: Lee
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Just a hello
Message:
Hi Marianne

Can't stop to say much, because work is much too heavy at the moment, but just wanted to say that one thing I LOVE to hear about is the path that led premies away from maharaji and the steps they took to gain strength to stand on their own two feet as people and as ex-premies. It's very clear in the post you have written.

Even though I have been posting on the recent exes forum, there's so much to be learnt as well from 'old' ex-premies. So, I for one, do not intend to just post over there. There are jewels of wisdom everywhere...

Looking forward to seeing you over in cold, gloomy UK, Marianne

Lee

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 21:01:29 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Lee
Subject: Hi to you too, Lee
Message:
Lee: Thank you for your kind words. I am getting very excited about my stay in Ireland and various jaunts around Europe. So is my husband. I'm looking forward to meeting all the crazy Brits, and all the not so crazy ones too. the weather over there is not much different than San Francisco at the same time of year.

Love, Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 00:18:10 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Raja Ji recommends Ex-Premie.Org
Message:
'Mrs. Ex (no relation to Mr. Ex - there are a LOT of Ex's out there lately) has contributed her Journeys entry. Like the rest of us, she once was misled by Maharaji. Fortunately, she was set straight by the words of his semi-older brother, Raja Ji:

'Raja also told the premies and aspirants in Boston to look at the ExPremies website: 'Look at the bad (this website) and the good and make your decision.' Well, I did, and I have and good-bye to raja and maharaja and the whole bloody cult.I'm free. I'm happy I'm free.'

Thanks for the contribution, Mrs. Ex.
And thanks to you too, Raja Ji. Keep speaking up for the truth!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 17:25:15 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Vouching
Message:
In case anyone has a grain of salt about the level of
abuse this person endured as a child, I can vouch for the
accuracy of the story during the seventies and eighties.
The Ken doll story is how I heard it at the time.
Since the post is so accurate (as you would expect).
The story of the childhood is just tragic and we all
can keep that in mind.
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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 05:25:39 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Thank you, Mrs. Ex. Excellent Journey! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 20:27:24 (EDT)
From: Caritas
Email: None
To: Mrs Ex
Subject: Thank you for your Journey Entry
Message:
Mrs Ex,

What an inspiration. We must have met in Gainesville at some point. Glad to hear you're back in New England and doing so well.

Caritas

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 17:21:43 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Raja Ji recommends Ex-Premie.Org
Message:
'Raja also told the premies and aspirants in Boston to look at the ExPremies website: 'Look at the bad (this website) and the good and make your decision.'

Seeing that the Rawats like this place so much, can anybody tell me if they send ex-premie.org any money...and how much?:::))

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 17:48:00 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Re: Raja Ji recommends Ex-Premie.Org
Message:
Hi Joey -
I know you're posting in fun (and it is pretty funny that Raja Ji would say this), but I wanted to dispel this rumor RIGHT AWAY. You wrote:

Seeing that the Rawats like this place so much, can anybody tell me if they send ex-premie.org any money...and how much?:::))

We've never gotten a dime from the Rawats, and don't plan to, unless of course one of them is posting as someone on the forum, with a false name and checkbook. Ex-premie.org and this forum are financially supported by many of the people who post here. This is much appreciated, since none of US are independently wealthy.

BTW, we're getting ready to do another year of fundraising for the ex-premie.org site, so stay tuned. Every little bit helps, as always.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 18:00:12 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Raja Ji recommends Ex-Premie.Org
Message:
I know you're posting in fun (and it is pretty funny that Raja Ji would say this)...

Yes Katie...it was meant Absolutely in fun, and fun only. There's a certain irony I find almost hilarious in this ....from a certain perspective.

Of course, I'm still trying to get a handle on the 'perspective':::))

Well its All in fun today. I guess some days are just funnier than others!!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 18:36:26 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Re: Raja Ji recommends Ex-Premie.Org
Message:
Hiya, Joey -
I just wanted to make things clear, since electronic communication can distort things (as you well know)! Yes, I agree that it's ironic, and also pretty funny :).
Take care,
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 18:48:13 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Raja Ji recommends Ex-Premie.Org
Message:
And hiya to you Katie,

And thank for that little pointer re: clarity and electronic communication.
For further pointers, I'll be emailing you shortly:)
Love,
Joey

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 20:54:12 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: All
Subject: So premies don't propagate
Message:
I asked below if any current premies have propagated in the last 5 years. None have answered to say they do. No wonder M is in deep shit financially.

My advice to him - get a proper job. All the flying lessons we paid for should help get you a decent job as a pilot.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 06:10:23 (EDT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: So premies don't propagate
Message:
Hi John,

now really, would you like to travel on a commercial flight knowing that Rawatt was at the controls? That is a nightmare scenario!

BTW I hope you're keeping well. Maybe we'll have another get together soon, I haven't witnessed the Latvian carousing den yet.

Best... Charlie

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 22:57:33 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Would You?
Message:
From what I can tell premies hide 'THAT love' under a bushel. They are basically embarrassed to tell people they are still following the former lord of the universe. They have no idea WHAT Maharaji's role is or how to explain it, because Maharaji is confused about it as well and it keeps CHANGING and they are toroughly embarrased by his garish, greedy, obscene lifestyle, and they are terrified of presenting him in the wrong way and possibly pissing the lord off so they just don't tell anyone. That's why Maharaji's propogation efforts in the West have been about as successful as the Jamaican Bobsled team.

Would you tell your boss or your co-workers you were a premie, if you were? Please. Only bongo premies do propogation......

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 03:19:31 (EDT)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Would You?
Message:
Anyone who would look at this propogation stuff objectively would have to admit it just is not happening. We boomers were the perfect target. As of my last cult event w/mahaha present(the 25 year in Miami Beach), it was just a greying population.

My theory is that propogation is brought up to fire up the current cult population. It makes them feel that this is a worthwhile endeavor. If nothing else M must maintain his base to pay his bills.

Most cult members I have known seem to separate the workplace from their cult involvement. The only exception to this would be those involved in new age type work with the potentially more susceptible audience.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 18:43:06 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: I know someone who did
Message:
One of the guys where I used to work a year ago was a premie, and he definitely used to propagate at work. (This was at a university, where it might be considered less weird to do so - not sure. Plus the guy was a professor). Anyway, he used to bring in introductory videos for people to watch. This was in a small town and he had video showings at his house, but I don't think he ever recruited anyone.

By the way, this was my first inkling that Maharaji was still out there and doing his thing - I found a video on my desk one day. Talk about weird - I hadn't seen anything about Maharaji in 20 years. I actually mentally blanked the whole experience because it just didn't 'fit' in my reality, if you know what I mean. A bit later, I became involved in the ex-premie site and forum (which the premie at my work actually POSTED on for a little while), but it was very strange.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 19:48:31 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: I know someone who did
Message:
Katie, I remember you talking about the video at work. And I'm not surprised that guy could never recruit anyone that way. I think in most work situations premies wouldn't do anything of the sort, and likely their co-workers don't even know they are premies.

You might recall some time ago I posted some stuff entitled: 'In Defense of Premies.' That came out of a conversation I had with two premies from San Francisco, who I knew from years ago, but hadn't seen in a long time.

Anyhow, maybe they are 'fringe premies,' but they kind of remind me of Youngold, except they are more critical of Maharaji. They say they frankly have no idea how to present Maharaji to anyone, so they don't. They aren't sure how he WANTS to be presented. I think they basically still believe he is some kind of a supreme being -- maybe not god, but definitely with powers of some sort, but they don't believe Maharaji wants them to say that, and they aren't allowed to give satsang anymore and they aren't sure what the hell he is doing.

They had a lot of criticism of the aspirant programs as being too controlled and dry, they don't give money to Maharaji because they think his organization, maybe more than him, waste it. Yet they still consider themselves 'premies' and occasionally they go to programs.

I think Cynthia made a good point. There is a BIG difference between being a non-practicing, perhaps rather indifferent, premie (of which I think there are MANY) and being an ex-premie. Being an ex-premie implies that you have made a clean break. The non-practicing premie just kind of floats.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 12:06:33 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Re: Would You?
Message:
In my community it happens and there are several new premies in the past two years because of it. I personally, stopped a couple years ago and even in the past five only chose people I perceived as weird or Indian people who would 'understand'.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 12:35:05 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Re: Would You?
Message:
Are the 'new' premies in your community still around? Also, I would be interested in knowing how these people are related to existing premies? Boyfriends of girlfriends? Relatives?

There can't be very many new premies in the West. Even EVs own statistics say that only 77 people received knowledge in North America in 1997 and in 1998 I think it was about 200.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 17:36:08 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: I would most certainly NOT!!
Message:
Even EVs own statistics say that only 77 people received knowledge in North America in 1997 and in 1998 I think it was about 200.

I guess they 'don't have' any stats for the people who have left, but my guess would be around 3,000 for North America.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 16:36:01 (EDT)
From: grace
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: New premies still around, don't know (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 17:44:47 (EDT)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: grace and all
Subject: M initiated cult members
Message:
Sometime in the early 90's I think was when the guru started hypnotizing people himself. Some time afterward, I remember him bragging about when he gave it himself it stuck. It would be a very interesting stat to have.

Is there anyone out there in cyberland who got K right from Maharaji??

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 18:06:02 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: TD Did
Message:
I think she received knowledge from Himself in 1995. And you couldn't BE more of an EX than TD, so that kind of dispells his claim.

By the way, TD, it must be springtime in your part of the world. I hope all is well down under.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 18:34:02 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: So did Jude
Message:
And she reported that for the third technique (A.K.A. the Word), that Maharaji said 'visualize the master swinging you in a swing with each breath'. Pretty amazing, if you ask me.

BTW, if anyone's heard from Judith, tell her hi for me. And greetings to TD as well.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 19:31:30 (EDT)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: M was pissed!
Message:
Yeah, the swing thing was repeated to all of us during the many K reviews M gave to us personally. He wanted to set us straight. Did you old Ex's know that he did a video of his Ownself doing the techniques for these K reviews. Now' I suspect that he did it so he could go back stage and smoke cigarettes and who knows what else.

There was a program during this time where M had given K to some new people earlier in the day. Well, M is on stage and these new cult members are ushered in to the FRONT ROW right behind PAMS AND FAMILY. Some of the more unconscious of us(not me), began to applaud as in 'welcome to the club'.
M got hoppin' mad at us and lectured us sternly. Does anyone who was also there remember what it was that M said we did?

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 13:45:19 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Any spies?
Message:
Neither the Visions website or ELK seem to be posting excerpts from Rawat's recent satellite feeds. Is it because they don't want to provide exes with either the latest info or fodder for humor? Of course, the excerpts, when they are provided, are the blandest possible. We need a volunteer to go to satellite feeds and/or programs and get back to us with the juicy bits! I can't volunteer for the mission myself because everyone in my area already knows I'm an ex. Anyone out there with a strong stomach who is willing to spy?
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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 16:21:20 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: Any spies?
Message:
You don't need a "report" to know what he said. Something like:

Dear premies, (pause) here we are once again, (long pause) given that opportunity to have that understanding of this knowledge, (long pause) that gift and that experience of that fulfillment. It is such a gift (pause) a gift that is within you (pause) within inside you (long pause) and that place is just so beautiful (long pause). In fact, it is inside of you all the time (long pause) and it has never not been inside of you (long pause) it is such a beautiful place (long pause). It's like I was watching television yesterday and I saw this commercial for ____________ and it just shows you the concepts people have about what god is, what life is, and what that purpose is. They were talking about ____________________ and _____________, and there are just all these ideas everywhere that try to tell you what that experience really is. And yet (long pause) we have been shown that place, (long pause) which is so beautiful (long pause) but we have to have that understanding and to be reminded of that place (long pause), etc., etc.,

[This rambling will go on for about 45 minutes)

Since there are indications that Maharaji is very short on money, there may be some discussion about 'participation' which is the new code-word for 'service' which means giving money because of the 'gratitude' (which is the new, more relatable word for 'devotion,') which you are supposed to feel as a premie, or maybe think you should feel and will therefore be coaxed to give money just in case that might get you the 'experience' that is promised but never delievered. Also, the satellite feed costs about $70 per-premie so this is also a good fundraiser for Maharaji, which premies will come to, even though he speaks the same simplistic, repetitive gibberish he always does.

Maharaji continues:

We will now have some boring new-age elevator music, which I wrote myself through the use of a computer program that requires you to push several different buttons to make the music happen. Then my daughter will sing devotional love songs from the 70s to me while wearing a low-cut dress, backed up by the aging, but still going strong, One Foundation. I might then be coaxed into standing up and jerking up and down awkwardly in a 'dance' so that you can scream and cry for about 5 minutes.

Blessings to to all the suckers, I mean premies.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 07:29:44 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: JW
Subject: Soundalike experiment...
Message:
Very well observed and remembered, Joe. I think you could set up a fascinating experiment where premies had to read through a whole pile of satsang extracts; half of them would be taken from the Hamster's addresses while the other half could be the work of an ex writing in Maharaji's style. Would the premies be able to spot the real thing?

Or you could take it one step further and hire a skilled vocal impressionist who was capable of mimicking M's voice so accurately, nobody could tell him from the orginal by voice alone. Then run an audio version of the experiment. As well as the question of whether premies could recognise the true Master from his message, there would be the 'satsang experience' factor. Would premies get that special darshan buzz from listening to a soundalike?

If, as I suspect, the satsang experience is a product of expectation and conditioned responses, there would be no differences in experience between the experimental and control conditions.

For the most complete version of the experiment - involving script, sound and vision - it is just a shame the Hamster doesn't have an identical twin / clone. Then you could really give the premies a few headaches trying to tell a living Lord from a mere imposter.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 14:07:01 (EDT)
From: who knows
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: and how hard would it be to imitate an ex? Specially you!(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 04:58:49 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: who knows
Subject: Probably quite easy
Message:
But what is your point, exactly?
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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 16:05:36 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Nigel
Subject: And you would probably find...
Message:
...that a non-ex pretending to be an ex would probably appear to be a normal human being - just like the ex.

But your suggestion has further possibilities: say the non-ex (ie. premie) was a skilled mimic pretending to be an ex who was, in turn, a skilled mimic imitating Maharaji - then you might find the premie was equally effective at giving the other premies that satsang experience.

After all, premies pretending to be exes pretending to be gurus, exes pretending to be gurus, and fake gurus pretending to be nothing less than the Living Lords are all just ordinary people. Some are a little more honest about it, that's all.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 06:28:13 (EDT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Any spies?
Message:
Hi JW,

that's excellent! I've printed this up and folded it into my wallet. If I ever need to be reminded of that beautiful thing I can just pull out my paper and get this concise and most precise dose twoddle to put me safely back on the track.

Nobody need look at another video again.

Charlie

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 22:01:20 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Brilliant!
Message:
That's really good, Joe. Thanks for the laugh.
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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 17:18:03 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: To JW
Message:
Thanks, JW, on target as usual. But that's all the shit that makes it past the censors. I want the other stuff.
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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 17:10:32 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Dear Premies
Message:
JW, funny post, I enjoyed. But you know, the one thing you got wrong was the opener of 'Dear Premies'. It was sad to me he stopped addressing us that way, it was so sweet!
Lately he even had to explain what 'premie' means, sad as that is.
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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 17:00:02 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: ***Best*** and to DV - That will get you into big trouble!
Message:
JW, you've done it again.

As a recent-ex (almost two years) and having been to local videos and the really big lip-synched shows, I can qualify that your Maharaji satsang is very much valid even if you left the cult over 15 years ago. Of course, I could be wrong if Maharaji has made drastic changes within the last two years, but I doubt that.

Careful now, DV! If you goto the Visions or the EV site (I forgot which) and read the legal fine print regarding the satellite broadcasts you will see that if you try anything funky the U.S. FBI will be on your case in a heartbeat.

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 22:52:10 (EDT)
From: DV
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: ***Best*** and to DV - That will get you into big trouble!
Message:
Let the FBI come, I'll introduce them to Ex-premie.org!
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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 11:50:36 (EDT)
From: Cynthia G
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: DV
Subject: Re: Copyrights - Visions/EV
Message:
Dear DV:

This topic reminds me of a recent conversation I had with a community coordinator (or contact as they are called now). It now costs $275.00 per month for a community to purchase the official community video subscriptions. These are copyrighted in a different way than the videos or cassetets offered in the visions catalog. The privately purchased videos (which are all on sale now) may NOT be used in a community setting if that venue is a hall, library, what have you, because of certain copyright provisions that I am not clear about.

Therefore, a premie can purchase a video from visions and show an intro one to someone for propagation in their living room, but that same video, which is also offered through the $275/month subscription program, may not be shown at an 'official' community event. Very strange,

When I heard that (before my recent exit) I thought--what a great way to make money but doesn't this hinder propagation because so many small communities can't afford the subscription fee.

Go figure......Cynthia.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 12:55:24 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Cynthia G
Subject: Re: Copyrights - Visions/EV
Message:
Thanks for that Cynthia. I had heard the same thing. It would be interesting to see if Visions would actually prosecute a premie for showing a video of his 'master' outside of his or her living room. It would never happen. But as with most things, it's just a way of scaring premies into spending more money that benefits Maharaji because they are scared of crossing the living lord.

But you are right, it would likely hinder propogation to limit the use of the videos, but, as I think you know, Maharaji's goal is NOT propogation, it is MONEY.

As I have said before, you can tell his priorities just by what we know from observation. Maharaji has been a miserable failure at spreading knowledge to the world, bringing peace, etc., but he has been wildly successful in accumulating wealth for himself. Now, which of those things do you think his priority is?

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 16:08:39 (EDT)
From: DV
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: Any spies?
Message:
It would be nice to record his live feed, as he will have no way to edit himself!
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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 20:14:13 (EDT)
From: Howard Hacker
Email: None
To: DV
Subject: Re: Any spies?
Message:
How about I replace his 'feed' with 'Debbie Does Dallas' or maybe 'Monica Does Malibu.' Other options are 'The Devil In Miss Monica,' 'Romancing the Bone' and 'Tunnel of Love'. Am I the only one who thought that song was mildly pornographic? 'Tunnel of Love?????' I know that was referring to the darshan tunnel, but come on.
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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 22:47:12 (EDT)
From: [blank]
Email: None
To: Howard Hacker
Subject: Alert
Message:
Security: Condition alpha
GW has been advised
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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 06:08:05 (EDT)
From: Dr. Evil
Email: None
To: [blank]
Subject: Re: Alert, schmalert!
Message:
Our plan is already in motion. Condition Omega!

We have your precious little boy guru now!

Sleuth around at Roger's House of Maharaji Drek and you will see and you will know.

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 22:03:20 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: Howard Hacker
Subject: Tunnel of Love
Message:
I'm such a ding dong! I never figured out until now that the song Tunnel of Love was about the darshan tunnel. But then, give me a break, I didn't know about darshan tunnels until earlier this year. Thanks for enlightening me, Hacker.
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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 16:29:11 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: DV
Subject: Re: Any spies?
Message:
DV,

Yes, Rawat allows himself many liberties in his live programs. The last one I attended was Longbeach 1996. I remember him suddenly telling some potty joke that was truly offensive and juvenile. The response from the audience was uncomfortable but obsequious laughter. I forget what the joke was, exactly. But, yes, unedited Rawat talk could go far in revealing his true colors.

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 16:47:42 (EDT)
From: DV
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: Any spies?
Message:
That was the second to last program I attended. I remember sitting up in the last row getting this weird cold feeling as premies stood up and sang and happy clapped on the last night. As usual, of course, all the premies in the first 20 rows, the 'radiation zone', were not as enthusiastic. I always thought it was his 'power', but now I think it is a dose of reality- it's kind of hard to cavort around and dance and sing like a blubbering jerk in front of someone staring at you from twenty feet away!
I remember him talking about an example of a single premie, in old age, living 'very simply', doing ss&m. I remember how, in my cult mindset, I latched right on to that concept- 'Yes, when I retire, I'll live in some ashram nursing home situation, and just fade away in bliss!' I'll even sign over my social security and pension checks! I wonder if he slipped that little idea out on purpose?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 01:15:57 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: DV
Subject: Living simply --- for premies, not Rotwat
Message:
Hi DV. Are you also dv, who drove around DC announcing the Soul Rush parade with the PA system atop your car?

I find it very interesting that Rotwat introduced the idea to premies of living 'simply' in old age doing s,s&m. If simple living is such a virtue, perhaps he should give it a try. Yes, one should spend his or her twilight years in devotion to this creep. Live simply and give him your money so he can continue his opulent lifestyle. How dare he!

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 07:21:04 (EDT)
From: DV
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Living simply --- for premies, not Rotwat
Message:
Yes, DV is short for DieVine (died on the vine).
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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 07:19:43 (EDT)
From: DV
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Living simply --- for premies, not Rotwat
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 17:14:04 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: DV
Subject: To DV
Message:
Nice to hear we were in the trenches together and both got out safely.
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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 14:37:05 (EDT)
From: who knows
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: Any spies?
Message:
i could do this for you.
(of course i will charge you to cover the cost of broascast (plus slight profit margin).
so that would be $100.
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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 11:39:08 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Am I the only one?
Message:
Something's bugging me about Katie's proposal to split up the forum ( and yes, that's exactly what it is). Am I the only one who thought that we'd actually turned quite a satisfying corner with Joey's reconciliation and all that? For a moment I thought we actually didn't have anything to fight about.

I don't know. First you start talking about 'support' and next thing you know you've got people like Cynthia, bless her heart, telling us 'old exes' to wipe the smiles off our faces, 'get a life' and perhaps just buzz off. This is, apparently, a preemie ward. (Sorry, I won't do that again.)

Let's not get too precious about this. If you've got serious 'healing' to do, you're seriously misguided if you think you're going to do that in this one dimension of an internet conversation pit. I think the basic relief new exes need is cognitive, quite frankly. If they've been duped by the cult and its leader for years they've obviously suffered from information deprivation more than anything else and that's a large part of what we can offer each other here. I really think it's a misguided effort to try to put together a separate wading pool. But then maybe that's just because I don't have the requisite 'sensitivity' to work there. No, really, I think that the ongoing interaction between new exes and old is a lot of what keeps this place vital to the extent that it is and I'd hate to see that process undermined because someone decided it was best to sequester new exes from us ol' crusty ones. That's a bad agenda no matter how many doilies you put it on.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 00:08:56 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: 'Am I the only one?' You bet you are you beautiful, magnificent sob!::))
Message:
That's a bad agenda no matter how many doilies you put it on.

Oh Jim man, thank you for bringing it to a close...and for the 'doilies' too. Most of all for the doilies.

I love you man, I really do, LIKE A BROTHER!
I wouldn't be saying this if it wasn't out of LOVE.
And I hope you don't puke reading this. Really I do.
Some people say I get on their nerves, and I'm trying to deal with it. Really.
But I think you should give Katie a big hug, and say you're sorry for calling her effort 'misguided', and then we'll REALLY have turned a corner. Whaddya say?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 13:10:49 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Thanks, Joey
Message:
Dear Joey -
Thanks very much for your words about the 'other' forum. (Although I do have to tell you that I DO do miguided things from time to time!).

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 16:36:50 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Thank YOU Katie
Message:
Yes I can tell Katie. In fact you even spell 'misguided' wrong from time to time:::))
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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 11:13:15 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Katie's a plant (don't worry, I won't say 'preemie ward' again)
Message:
Preemie ward
Preemie ward
Preemie ward ...

So there!

Okay, Joey, you want me to admit that maybe I'm jumping the gun. Hell, maybe I am. But don't forget, this isn't the first time this has happened. How about when Katie wanted to set up a separate forum for women only? No one talks about that but I've still got the email she sent out (no I won't say who gave it to me):

Dear Former Sisters:

Well, it's holiday time again and didn't it come fast this year? Sheesh! I feel like I've barely finished sending out my thank you cards for all your sweet holiday greetings last year and here we are again. Sheesh!

Anyway, every year about this time I like to have an idea. This is what I've put together this time. You know how all our ex-men friends get so caught up in football around now ('American Rugby', I believe, for you Euro gals)? They don't post as much and when they do they can get so mean and grumpy. 'Why can't all their teams win?' I keep asking myself (and whoever might be there to answer my prayers and sincere questions). Who needs the grief?

Well, I've been thinking. Maybe what we need is a Sister's Spot? (Brian helped me with the name. What do you think?). You know, a place where we can get together and talk and stuff. Huh? Let me know soon because if we don't do it now it might not happen. The point isn't to exclude men per se. Not exactly, anyway.

Let me know.

Love you all,

Deeply,

Katie

No, seriously? Well, seriously, I don't know. Maybe it's a good idea, maybe it's not. Hell, how can we decide these things? Sometimes I tihnk we need a master. Not just any master either. A Perfect Master.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 12:42:02 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I love you too, Jim
Message:
Hi Jim -
I'm still laughing about that 'E-mail' (by the way, to anyone who doesn't know - it was a JOKE - Jim's imitation of me). Don't exactly know what you were trying to really say there, but it was funny.

Love you,
DEEPLY,
Katie

P.S. BTW I love NFL football, and have been pretty blatant about this on the forum. (Go Redskins!) Also it's 'Moon Lodge', not 'Sister's Spot'! Do you really want to go THERE?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 15:53:32 (EDT)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Another Skins Fan
Message:
I just knew you were alright. Dallas this weekend.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 17:38:18 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Dallas sucks (ot)
Message:
That first game against Dallas was a heartbreaker - sheesh! I hope the Skins win this one!

P.S. I also like the Packers and the (snicker) Browns.

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 21:26:11 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: I agree with you Jim
Message:
As I've stated elswhere below, I am in agreement with you on this subject. Having secret and exclusive groups doesn't enhance things.

My suggestion would be for either a mailing list if people wanted privacy (which I've already offered but it wasn't supported here) or a forum for ALL ex-premies with the emphasis on sensitive counselling and help for recent exes and; and it's a big and; if this other forum was invaded by unsavoury types then writing to this other forum could be password protected but not reading.

That's my view but I'm in retirement and I'm going to bed now anyway...

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 15:58:45 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Am I the only one?
Message:
Jim, I don't understand your reaction to this. If a forum for recent exes meant that new exes would never be exposed to old exes, I would agree with you, but I don't see why that would happen. What IS the big deal? I think it's a natural evolution that there will be more places for ex-premies of all stripes to communicate. I say let it grow.
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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 21:46:14 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Am I the only one?
Message:
Dear Joe,
I agree with you here. They can go there to discuss things they don't feel comfortable with here, because of premies that may see or they are afraid they'd be attacked. As Joe says they can still come here. If they couldn't then I'd have a big problem with it too but they can.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 14:29:11 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sheesh, Jim!
Message:
Hi Jim -
It's about time for our quarterly or semi-annual argument on the forum (but I'd prefer NOT to have one right now!). Anyway, about the recent exes forum. So far, almost everyone who is posting on that forum also posts on Forum IV, so I wouldn't call it 'splitting the forum'. The new forum is called a subset of Forum IV, and there's a link back to Forum IV right on the heading. I don't expect that the new forum will get more than a fraction of the number of posts that are made here.

As far as the need for this forum - for some time, there has been an informal e-mail support group among many of the recent exes (and some older exes as well). The new forum is an attempt to 'connect the dots', so all these people can talk to each other at once. It's just an experiment, and may well turn into an e-mail list-serv or something else. IMHO, it is no big deal. As I said earlier, I've been involved for over a year in an e-mail group with some of the other women on the forum, and that hasn't 'split' the forum, or threatened it in any way. I hope people can view this new forum in the same light.

Take care, Jim -
Katie

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 13:14:10 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: NO you're not the only one
Message:
'First you start talking about 'support' and next thing you know you've got people like Cynthia, bless her heart, telling us 'old exes' to wipe the smiles off our faces, 'get a life' and perhaps just buzz off. '

This reminds me of the early 90s when I was told that I am an 'old premie' and m had told the newbies to ignore them. (He was scared that we would tell the truth.)

I haven't been following all the the threads in detail, but it looks like the same old premie mindset to me.

I think before people become exs they should come and listen to unsatsang to remove all doubts.

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 15:43:50 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: NO you're not the only one
Message:
Hi Jethro -
Please read my response to Jim above (you can ignore the part about the semi-annual argument :). I had NO idea that the proposal of a private forum for recent exes was going to cause so much furor, and I apologize for that. As far as being an 'old ex', I am one of the oldest of the hold, having left M's organization in 1977, and having been hanging around the forum for several years.

I think the combination of old and new exes and aspirants has been extremely valuable for many people, particularly people who heard about Maharaji after he stopped being the 'Lord of the Universe'. You're right that it's important for these people to know what went on during the earlier days of DLM. Conversely, the input of people who just left recently has been very important for those of us who have not been around for a while.

As far as the 'new exes' forum goes - it's a support group that people asked for, and I want to give it a chance. As I said to Jim, there has been an informal e-mail support network between some of the people who just left M recently, and in fact, since I've been around for so long, I've helped people make some of these connections. I don't think that formalizing this network will be divisive to the forum.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 15:49:42 (EDT)
From: Oh you just want a place where you can talk about me behind my back...
Email: gerry@itsallabout mememe.calm
To: Katie
Subject: And that doesn't make me paranoid either
Message:
could i be one of those people Cynthia doesn't like??

I must get back into orgone therapy...DR REICH!! HELP!!!

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 17:09:29 (EDT)
From: Mr. Happy
Email: None
To: Oh you just want a place where you can talk about me behind my back...
Subject: No, but...
Message:
For those with a sound card (45k file) Listen Here!
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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 10:07:25 (EDT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Mr. Happy
Subject: Not me
Message:
The last post was not by the 'usual' Happy, but by someone else. I'd appreciate if you'd pick another name to avoid confusion.
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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 15:58:18 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: sorry, Gerry!
Message:
Sorry, Gerry, your name hasn't been mentioned! Is that an insult or what??

(You could always set up a Gerry Channel...)

Love,
Katie

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 16:55:22 (EDT)
From: Your wish is my command...
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Announcing... A New Forum!!!
Message:
A place where truly demented and twisted OLD EXES ONLY can slash, swear, scream, reinforce all the old conditioning, rip open old wounds and hopefully start a few new gashes bleeding!!!

Don't anyone tell Cynthia the password is 'swordfish'
The gerry channel

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 11:58:59 (EDT)
From: Jim, you insensitive, brute beast,
Email: gerry@bongo,com
To: Jim
Subject: you ARE the only one!
Message:
And you could certainly do with a little training in that area...

Seriously though, you voiced similiar concerns when Magical Mystery Tour (now 'Anything Goes') launched. I don't believe that forum has watered down the discussion here, do you?

SO QUIT YOUR WHINING, YOU WEENIE!!!

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 17:34:00 (EDT)
From: Lots of Reading
Email: None
To: Whoever interested
Subject: Musings of GMP on Virtual Communities
Message:
Unique perspectives on virtual groups!

(Web musings by GMP)

Site has not been completely maintained. Check out: WEB, ASK THE SAGE, and FOUNDED links.

(The role of the moderator in a Scholarly Discussion)

Creating a Real Group in a Virtual World

Who is that EPAL?

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 10:50:41 (EDT)
From: corvuscorvae
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Does God exist?
Message:
-
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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 10:57:44 (EDT)
From: corvuscorvae
Email: None
To: corvuscorvae
Subject: Re: Does God exist?
Message:
-
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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 07:07:31 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: corvuscorvae
Subject: Re: Does God exist? Yes but not here
Message:
Dear Jamie; I'd like to talk about this but not here. Why don't you email me or write on The ANYTHING GOES forum.

Stephen Hawking is of the opinion that the big bang theory is not correct and that the process of universe creation is happening all the time.

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 20:20:23 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: corvuscorvae
Subject: Re: Does God exist?
Message:
The thing that has apparently been determined is, that as far as can be understood the material within our galaxy is older than the moment of the bang. Go figure?

That DOESN'T figure, Corvy. If the 'bang' was the birth of the universe and our galaxy is part of the universe, well then... ? Maybe I'm just too much into my mind and should open my heart to this.

Does God exist? In peoples' minds, I suppose. In reality, I think there are 'mystical' experiences which would lead a person to believe he or she is in God's presense, but on closer examination of those experiences, an open minded person might see that it's just a deep, human experience, which is misconstrued as being a 'divine' one. So to me, the question is not if there's a God, but why do we think, that certain experiences we have of ourselves, is an experience of God? This is a real puzzle to me.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 19:32:30 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Does God exist?
Message:
Dear Jerry,
Hi, how the hell are you? :)
I wonder if you've ever had unexplainable experiences, daytime visions, esp types of experiences. Anything like that? I don't like the word god as for me in raising the image of a person which I do not believe in. I just believe there is something more going on that what is on the surface of life. Do you think there is just the surface stuff and nothing else?
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 14:11:35 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: Does God exist?
Message:
Hi Robyn,

The 'mystical' experience I had didn't include visions, esp, or the like. It was just an experience of completeness, for want of a better word, a feeling of all wants and needs fulfilled, just feeling that everything is perfect and as it should be. And I'm not talking about having everything I want, materialistically, that would give me that feeling. I'm talking about a state of being not dependent on that. It just came out of the blue for no apparent reason. When it happenned I thought, immediately, that I was being visited by God, that he was resting himself in my soul, and in doing so, filled my being with mercy and love. I felt forgiven, made whole again. It was quite profound. To this day, I don't know what caused it, unless I'm to assume I was right in identifying it as an experience of God, which happenned because he wanted it to at that time and place. If not for what I've since learned about brain chemistry and the central nervous system, I would have left it at that. I even wish it was that. But I don't think so. I'm certain it was brain chemistry.

I don't know what you mean, exactly, by 'surface stuff'. But if you mean do I think this life is all there is, yes, I do. That doesn't mean I think all is in vain. I kind of like being alive.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 19:12:15 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Does God exist?
Message:
Dear Jerry,
I thought I remembered you had has some type of experience. Thanks for recounting it for me.
When I said surface stuff I mean what you see is all there is, trees, grass, floors, cars ect. Even if it is just brain chemistry, the day time visions, your feeling of wholeness, then the brain has a lot more capabilities that we haven't realized yet. I remember posting in a thread once about hearing that we only use 10% of our brains but then someone or more than one person said that is now not thought to be true so what explination of brain chemistry do you have?
Nice talking to you again, it has been awhile.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 19:42:50 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: Does God exist?
Message:
Robyn,

I don't know about using less than 10% of the brain. Pretty much every area of the brain is accounted for, but if neurons aren't used, I think I read somewhere that they 'curl up' until a need for them arises. It makes sense, though, that we would have a large reserve of neurons, or how else would we hold future experience and ideas? If that reserve measures up to 90%, I don't know.

As for using brain chemistry to explain mystical experience, there is a wealth of knowledge in how various neurotransmitters affect our sense of well being, either adding to it, or detracting from it. Also, people who suffer from imbalances in brain chemistry, particularly epileptics, frequently talk about their spiritual experiences. And of course, there's the hallucinogens. Since earliest times, 'holy men' have talked about entering the 'spirit world' through the use of various plants and mushrooms, and in more modern times, through the use of synthetic drugs such as DMT and LSD. These drugs and 'sacred plants' emulate natural neurotransmitters in large quantities, and as a result, a person thinks and feels that he has made contact with the spirit kingdom. So, the evidence is there that brain chemistry is altered during spiritual, or mystical, experience. There has to be a correlation between the two; no shift in brain chemistry, no mystical experience. This is the way I've come to understand it.

Nice talking to you again, too, Robyn :)

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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 12:52:17 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: 10% brain function
Message:
Dear Jerry,
These daytime visions I have sometimes just come up, driving a car or just doing any ordinary thing I will see something and it plays out for no apparent reason, it isn't a feeling, although I have had experiences with physical experiences, once it felt like a roto rooter was swirling through my body. I was afraid when it hit my heart I'd have a heart attack. I tried to move to make it stop but it wouldn't stop. When it did hit my heart is just went off in all directions, into my head and arms. Or while driving I had a vision of an angel floating with her back to the ground and a 'jet stream' of energy abover her and a shoot of that energy broke away but stayed attached to the bigger mass of energy and connected to the angel's heart. I was just driving home from work! The other odd thing was that I had to force myself to not take on the position of the angel and to keep sitting so I could drive. I have lots of things like this that happen. I can't make them happen or make them stop when they do happen but I don't think they fit into your neuro transmitter explination that could explain your feeling. I like to think that there is something going on that is beyond science for me and even for your experience. I will never know why or where these things come from for me but they feel like gifts of glimpses of something beyong the surface.
I think maybe Jim and Nigel talked about that 10% brain thing. I was hoping they'd read that post and speak up.
Do you think these visions could be explained by brain chemistry?
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 12:32:17 (EDT)
From: JHS Gabriel
Email: JUST HUMAN LOVE !
To: corvuscorvae
Subject: Re: Does God exist? *(Omnipresent, Omniscient AND Omnipotent is The Answer !) *
Message:
Jamie,
and to explain more about the 3 stated words (omniscient, omnipotent AND Omnipresent) :
-you have from Maharadji :
The Knowlegde (also know as the 4 Internal Elements) wich is only a part of the Body of God
and you have also but that's from 'me'
-The Spirit (=The Real State Of Mind/Consciousness from US HUMAN BEINGS)= The other part of the Body of God !
-Love (THE VIBRATION)= The other part of the Body of God ! and from us human being = THE REAL MEANING OF WHAT WE CALL LOVE
So now you have A BIG THING to start to find THE REAL TRUTH
and that's only IF YOU WANT TO = NO OBLIGATION...
Gabriel

LOVE
IS †
God JHS
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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 21:50:44 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JHS Gabriel
Subject: Question for fruitcake
Message:
JHS,

Do you always talk like this? Do you think its healthy? Don't you remember what your mother said? What if you got stuck in this position and couldn't get out?

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 14:45:00 (EDT)
From: Lucifer
Email: None
To: JHS Gabriel
Subject: I bow down before JHS Gabriel!
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 07:37:33 (EDT)
From: JHS Gabriel
Email: audio's quadraphonic surrounded
To: Lucifer
Subject: Re: I bow down before JHS Gabriel!
Message:
Hi Angel,
NO ONE must bow dow or up...before anyone (not even before God as all IS within our mind/s(S)pirit)
I can't work your think to listen to it . How do I make it work ? l
Let me know !
Gabriel the human being ONLY !
 Love
IS †
God JHS
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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 11:52:09 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: corvuscorvae
Subject: Not really
Message:
um, no. I mean not really.
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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 08:59:44 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Note to Cynthia and Gary
Message:
If you go to the bottom of the messsages, you
will see a sign that says 'SEE ALL'.
If you hit that, you will see all 700 messages
and you can find the threads you made and the
comments that are still being added to your
messages. The forum is longer than the first
100 messages that appear when you first
get the forum on your screen.
Hit the see all button to get it all.
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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 03:06:37 (EDT)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: All
Subject: To Members of ABA(OT)
Message:
Just heard this on PBS yesterday.

In LaCrosse, Wisconsin there were 3 rapes. DNA evidence says one man did all 3 rapes. The statute of limitations is about to run out so the local D.A. is seeking a John Doe warrant. 'I know who he is,' he says, 'I just don't know his name.'

The higher courts are expected to become involved.

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 04:27:54 (EDT)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: .....and Jim too
Message:
forgot you were in Canada
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Date: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 23:19:40 (EDT)
From: youngold
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: I know that voice
Message:
cool... thanks for the kind words
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Date: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 23:04:48 (EDT)
From: youngold
Email: None
To: Way, jury member
Subject: ' so help me, Joni'
Message:
My hand is on the stack of old “And It Is Divine”s.

love... what a word.

Joni Mitchell is someone I love. She doesn’t know it. (maybe she does, I’ve got an
autograph in the mail from her) , but all the years I’ve listened to her music, all the insight,
all that passion, talent, honesty, artistry, I am astounded at her. I am so grateful to her for
reaching me.

Perhaps her personal life is crap though. She got pregnant at 18 and gave away the baby,
she smokes like a fiend, producers say she is a bitch to deal with, and on and on. But I
feel love and gratitude towards her none the less.

Sir David Attenborough is someone I love. He can explain the natural world with such
ease and dry humor... I’m totally fascinated. I’ve never met him and know nothing about
his personal life, yet I feel love and gratitude and appreciation for him.

M is someone I’ve seen and heard many times in person. He has been a teacher to me for
over 27 years. He has been distant all that time, even though at times I had tried to get
that coveted front row seat or that magic darshan story. But maybe that is the point.
Maybe he is not the focal point. Maybe what he is pointing to is.

My highest experience so far in my life has been an overwhelming rush of gratitude and
joy for being alive. I’ve felt that now and then. I feel it has something to do with K. So I
do feel love and gratitude for M.

His personal life, some say it’s a mess. evil. sordid. I don’t know.

I hope no one follows my day to day doings and thoughts with a microscope and recorder.
I will come off as a real asshole.

I know how this sound to you but I’ll say it anyway...Jesus was hated and accused and
framed and killed. He was a master. And who knows what he was really like. He was
reclusive. No one really knows what he was doing from age 12 to 30. Those are 18 years
of a lot of opportunity for trouble! Who knows?

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 14:15:25 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: youngold
Subject: Re: ' so help me, Joni'
Message:
Joni Mitchell is someone I love. She doesn’t know it. (maybe she does, I’ve got an autograph in the mail from her) , but all the years I’ve listened to her music, all the insight, all that passion, talent, honesty, artistry, I am astounded at her. I am so grateful to her for
reaching me.

Jesus man, grow up. As I said to Helen down below, I love ice cream and I love my kitchen counters. And to say that your relationship with Maharaji is similar to the love relationship you have with a rock star kind of makes my point about this supposed 'connection' premies have to Maharaji. And as for David Attenborough, I think you 'love' his acting skills and the way you feel when you watch him on television. But that's not 'him', if you know what I mean, that's what he does for his job, which he does very well. And basically, you love the feelings you have watching him do what he does.

As I also said to Helen, in my experience, the 'love' for Maharaji that premies say they (sometimes) feel is basically transference and attribution. You get a high at a program (due to the phenomenon known as a 'group high' available lots and lots of places) and you attribute that to Maharaji. You have a nice experience, you feel love, whatever, inside yourself, or in your life, and you attribute that to Maharaji and to knowledge. There is no reason whatsoever to attribute any of this as coming from him, but that's what the cult tells you to do so you do it. It's easy and you don't have to think about it. And when you stop attributing it to him, the cult is basically over for you, no matter how many programs you go to, or how much meditation you do.

Maharaji's sordid personal life has never been a real concern for me. It is useful to know about it because it tells you to some degree what this guy is really like. And isn't it interesting how he tries so hard to HIDE those things from his followers?

No, my real problem with him is his total lack of integrity and it's personal for me, because I dedicated years of my life to him. He proclaimed himself god, let people dedicate their lives to him based on that false proclomation, and he has never taken any responsiblity for it. That is my major problem with him, and it's hard to 'love' someone, even if you know them personally, who has done something like that to me and many others. Even a high at a program wouldn't make up for that.

Oh yeah, and the other problem is that knowledge doesn't really work if you don't adopt the belief system that comes along with it. So, he is also peddling and misrepresenting what he and his cult are all about.

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 07:17:13 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: youngold
Subject: Are you repeating yourself?
Message:
Didn't you already post this in a thread below, or is the forum software playing tricks? If you did post it twice, please don't as it's hard enough keeping up with the posts here without reading the same stuff twice.

John.

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 23:28:56 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: OT-Monmot,JHB
Message:
Hello Optomistic John,
Monmot made the point that doesnt distribution play a part
in money supply.

Which is something I was about to mention to you.
Rapid acceleration or higher velocity of money
circulation will have a similar effect as an increase of
money supply.
I'll post some more about that tomorrow.

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 02:52:47 (EDT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: youngold
Subject: Re: ' so help me, Joni'
Message:
Dear Youngold et al,

Through the bizarre and multi-faceted circumstances of my life, I've had the occasion to meet and spend time with both Joni Mitchell and Maharaji. I had a great time with both. But in the interests of full disclosure, I must say that Maharaji was the most amazing person I've ever met and that the tripe one reads on this page is nothing but sour grapes meeting blown expectations...period.

I give all due props to Joni for her continuing, fearless individuality and I give FAR MORE credit to Maharaji for advancing his relentless, timeless, positive work in the face of some (loud but small) undeserved, unconscious harassment and non-comprehension despite the fact that he's revealed Knowledge (or Raja Yoga, whatever) to more people than ANYONE in the history of the world. Yes, the history of the entire world.

The fact that Jagdeo 20 years ago or Fakirinand 25 years were screwed-up people is merely a veneer, a front...a flimsy excuse for not dealing with the reality of a living, actual teacher right now. It's all old and moldy news.

Find another scapegoat for the lack in YOUR lives. If it relieves you to not practice, have enough honesty to treat that at face value. And have enough respect for YOURSELVES to realize that what you saw all those years, was, in fact, real. If you can at least enjoy Joni Mitchell, that's a fairly good sign. If you're trying to champion the cause of how off some OTHER guy was, 20 years ago, take a genuine look at what a stretch that is in trying to devalue Maharaji. And it wouldn't hurt for a moment to realize how LIMP it is of you to try and marginalize all of his considerable qualities as a speaker, teacher and guide to make yourselves feel better.

JB

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 08:31:59 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: Expectations
Message:
But in the interests of full disclosure, I must say that Maharaji was the most amazing person I've ever met and that the tripe one reads on this page is nothing but sour grapes meetingblown expectations...period.

What expectations? Real happiness? True joy? Jeez, I'm sorry I asked for too much. But then, isn't that what fatso promised? What should I have expected? Oh yeah, nothing. That's right. Don't get caught up in concepts. Just flow, daddy-oh. Right? Just focus and let it happen. Please. It's a crock of shit and so are you. Even if you KNOW that you're NOT experiencing what you want and/or need from Knowledge, Maharaji tells you that you ARE experiencing what Knowledge promises. You just haven't realized it. Talk about a mind fuck. It makes me want to puke.

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 13:24:30 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: You are not human
Message:
'The fact that Jagdeo 20 years ago or Fakirinand 25 years were screwed-up people is merely a veneer, a front...a flimsy excuse for not dealing with the reality of a living, actual teacher right now. It's all old and moldy news. '

The fact that maharaji has covered up for the jagdeos of this world destroys any credibility that he might have attained from the points mentioned in the rest of your post.

YOUR minimization of jagdeo says alot about your own state of mind and other premies.

Prempal is a living teacher of greed and narcissism,which obviously suits your chosen lifestyle.

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Date: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 23:33:43 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: youngold
Subject: Re: ' so help me, Joni'
Message:
I'm really not trying to harass you --REALLY! I think you make an excellent point here, YO. Joni rules in my universe too, I love her. But she didn't ask me to surrender the reins of my life to her and in exchange she would show me my soul. Maharaji did. So I hold him up to a much higher standard of personal conduct than I do a musician whose music I listen to when I choose. M asked for my EVERY BREATH. In retrospect, the whole situation was ridiculous, no person can be the Lord, and it was stupid for me to ever beleive in realized souls and surrender to any human.

Perhaps you have been able to see M as human all along, and didn't subsribe to the Lord stuff which is why you werent' much damaged by the trip and why you give him alot of latitude in his 'personal' life.

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 14:03:59 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Re: ' so help me, Joni'
Message:
Helen, with all due respect, how can you call what you feel for Joni Mitchell love? In this culture, we use the world 'love' for all kinds of things. I love ice cream, I love my new granite kitchen counters.

But when it comes to another human being, 'love' implies a relationship of some sort, and it implies actually knowing someone. You might love Joni Mitchell's music, lyrics, etc., but you dont' know her, so it's incorrect to say you 'love' her.

Like I did a number of times, Youngold might get a rush at a program, in my opinion due to a 'group high' no different than one might get at a Christian Revival or an Amway Convention, but to then project that feeling as 'love' for Maharaji doesn't make any sense.

And I agree that Maharaji has to be held to a higher standard than Joni Mitchell.

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 14:21:05 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: ' so help me, Joni'
Message:
That is such a good point, JW. I think what YO was saying is that he has had many people that have influenced him, but can we realy call that love? I know that listening to musicians like Joni Mitchell in the basement as a depressed teenager kind of 'saved' me from doing myself in on many occasions. So I hold her (Joni) in very high esteem indeed. But you're right it's her music & lyrics I love, not her. A relationship with her is nonexistent just as a relationship with M never existed (except in my mind). Many a teenage pimply-faced hormonal boy wished he had a relationship with Joni back in the 70's when she posed nude on For The Roses ha ha
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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 14:31:25 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Re: ' so help me, Joni'
Message:
Yeah, I listened to 'Court and Spark' so many times I wore the album out. That was right before I received knowledge, by the way. [But I actually had pretty good skin, not too many pimples....now there WERE other problems, but we won't go into that...:)]

I guess I react to YO because I remember using that deluded thinking as a premie myself. It reminds me of the idealism and romanticism I was feeling when I was looking for 'god' and found a cult instead. It was just so nice to believe I had a real connection to Mahararji and that he really loved me. It was great because it was supposedly unconditional, until, of course, Maharaji began making all the demands. Plus, it turned out that not only didn't he even know I was alive, he didn't give a shit about me or, from what I gather, virtually anyone else.

Isn't it interesting that many of us lived in his ashrams for 10 years and he never, ever spoke to us, even once? I remember someone telling me that if you love someone, you pay attention to them. That's basically how love is manifested. What does that say about Maharaji?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 07:56:55 (EDT)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Ashram Meetings
Message:
Wait a minute JW. Concerning your last paragraph, what about the 'Ashram Meetings' that were held at every major festival? As a fringe premie, I was never allowed in those meetings. But I heard that any ashram premie could ask Maharaji questions and in many meetings nearly all who had questions were able to ask them.

DavidJ

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 12:40:11 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Not True
Message:
Not true regarding being able to ask Maharaji questions at the ashram meetings held at festivals. I attended a number of them until I left in 1983 and we were NEVER allowed to ask M a question. In fact, in all my years as a premie, I never saw a time, outside that 'press conference' at Millennium that I saw on video, that Maharaji ever took questions from anyone. I think when he did, he came accross badly, so he just never did it.

However, right after I left, in 1983, I was visiting friends in Miami and it just so happened that M was doing an 'introductory program' in Miami. So, I went. Maharaji did take a few questions from non-premies in the audience, and was completely dismissive and arrogant, including telling one woman that she was wasting her time trying to rid the world of nuclear weapons and ending world hunger. He did not come off well. Even the premies I was with, who had not yet abandoned the cult, were kind of freaked out by his behavior.

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 18:25:37 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: ' so help me, Joni'
Message:
I agree with Helen that you made a good point, JW. I was about to say that I 'loved' Joni Mitchell too, but it's true that what I love is her music and lyrics. (I never really 'loved' Maharaji by the way - I was too scared of him! But that's another story.) I used to have the same feeling about Jerry Garcia, especially since his music really helped me get through life without Maharaji. This delusion persisted for a long time, and it was depressing for me to read some recent biographies of him and realize that he was just a guy who I didn't really know at all - and vice versa. (I suppose this might be how some exes feel about Maharaji - not sure.)

I've talked to some premies who HAVE spent a lot of time around Maharaji (personal time, not just sitting in programs), and some of them say they love him. I suppose this is different than loving him from afar, and I'm willing to grant these feelings legitimacy. But it is hard to see how people who haven't spent much time around Maharaji personally can say that they 'love' him. I can understand feeling gratitude and appreciation (as Youngold said), but love, no.

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 18:53:30 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: ' so help me, Joni'
Message:
As they say, love is blind. There are those who were close to Maharaji who say they love him and those who were close to him who say they hate him. I have heard he can be really friendly and charming to people around him, and I have also heard that he has heaped abuse on people around him.

But the percentage of premies who were with Maharaji more than 10 minutes in their lives is tiny. The vast majority of premies have never even talked to Maharaji. I frankly think it's easier to think you 'love' someone you don't know, but only have an image of. The reality, the contradictions, the imperfections and all the rest don't come into it then. I think Maharaji intentionally stays away from his devotees except in very controlled situations like programs. It creates an aura of specialness and it allows the fantasies to flourish.

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 20:14:59 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: A relationship with my counters
Message:
I agree with you about the reason M kept us at arm's length. One thing that fed into this for me was reading Be Here Now and Autobiography of a Yogi and learning about how the Master has some kind of power on the ' astral plane' transmitted through the initiation process, blah, blah. So my new age-saturated pea brain could accept that I was going to surreender the reins of my life to some dude I never met. Sure, man, like , whatever!!
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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 20:21:44 (EDT)
From: Tami
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Re: A relationship with my counters
Message:
Yes, the astril plain, I herd of that. Isnt that part of the cite Muraji bilt in Amuru, Ustrailia? Or iz it the plain Muraji fliz days? I thought that was a gulfstreem. I cunt remmbir. Gotta go my drug delir is here.
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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 21:13:19 (EDT)
From: California Redwood Forest
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: My sister Tami--ain't she something?
Message:
Um, JW, sorry about that little bongo eruption on Tami's part. I am her big sister, the sensible one. Well, I am a premie yes, but Maharaji lets me speak to newcomers at programs because I have a little more social intelligence and well, my roots are not quite as prominent, they don't scream 'Tonya Harding' the way Tami's do--ha ha. This one time, Tami got up to speak at a program and her stiletto heel got stuck on the carpet and well, she landed in this inititator's lap. He was that real repressed one, the one that you have talked about, Ira something. Anyway he got up and called her a harlot and she called him an 'cheesedicked toad' and well, it was awful. So anyway, since both Tami and I have been forbidden by our Lord to come here, goodbye, and I pray that you let that experience, that breath be so joyful in your life.
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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 23:05:13 (EDT)
From: Tami
Email: None
To: California Redwood Forest
Subject: My sistir is a bich.
Message:
We dunta speek inymor. Ira is a cheezdik and I dunta car wo nose it. Plus, yu pritind you dunta no Ira. Yu shud no him, you slept with him. HAHAHAHAHA

Mi sistir thinks she is so hi and mity. Wat a bich.

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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 18:32:44 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Relevant Joni Mitchell quote
Message:
We really thought we had a purpose
We were so anxious to succeed
We had hope, the world had promise
For a slave to liberty.
Freely we slaved away for something better
And we were bought and sold
And all we ever wanted was to come in from the cold.
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Date: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 18:40:23 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Relevant Joni Mitchell quote
Message:
Again and again the same situation
For so many years
Tethered to a ringing telephone
In a room full of mirrors
A pretty girl in your bathroom
Checking out her sex appeal
I said to myself when you said you loved me
Do you think this can be real?
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