Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum
Archive: 11
From: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 To: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 Page: 5 Of: 5


Roger eDrek -:- The Bus Depot and Street People -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 04:38:50 (EST)
__ Deputy Dog -:- Roger, are you telling me to fuck off? (nt) -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 17:10:54 (EST)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Consult your Bible, die and be reborn and you will know (nt) -:- Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 01:29:45 (EST)
__ Lee -:- Re: The Bus Depot and Street People -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 14:00:14 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia G. -:- Re: The Bus Depot and Street People -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 16:35:56 (EST)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Re: The Bus Depot and Street People -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 18:33:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Charlie -:- Intent to Mind-F**k -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 20:51:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: Intent to Mind-F**k -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 14:28:50 (EST)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Re: The Bus Depot and Street People -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 16:52:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- pssss wanna see a feelthy picture?? -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 18:09:46 (EST)

Runamok -:- Numbers of exes -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 03:11:52 (EST)
__ Charlie -:- Re: Numbers of exes -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 11:07:46 (EST)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Bad news for you Rawat! -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 10:49:59 (EST)
__ __ Katie -:- Number of Exes? -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 14:03:34 (EST)
__ __ __ Runamok -:- Re: Number of Exes? -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 01:48:24 (EST)

Sir Dave -:- Marketing advice, freely given -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 20:19:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Agree with Joey -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 13:39:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- What issues? -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 14:07:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- This is total B.S. Time to get real -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 16:18:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Hey Rog -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 17:28:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- No, don't waste your time -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 17:41:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Hey again, Rog -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 18:44:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: What issues? -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 14:37:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Digging deeper -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 15:27:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Digging deeper -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 17:38:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: Now this, is advertising.... -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 12:36:42 (EST)

Shp -:- Before I go listen to some music... -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 19:38:40 (EST)
__ Cynthia G. -:- SO GO ALREADY, SHP!!!! -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 08:27:44 (EST)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Good plan! -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 16:30:03 (EST)
__ __ Shp -:- Reply to Cynthia...somebody read it to her in the 3rd person -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 11:26:29 (EST)
__ __ __ Charlie -:- Shp, smarmy as ever -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 12:08:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Shp -:- Reply to Charlie -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 12:24:30 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Charlie -:- Re: Reply to Charlie -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 20:57:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Reply to Charlie -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 09:59:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Shp, have you ALREADY forgotten? -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 12:47:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Shp, have you ALREADY forgotten? -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 13:13:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: Shp, have you ALREADY forgotten? -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 13:21:27 (EST)
__ Joey -:- Re: Before YOU go, listen to THIS... -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 20:41:18 (EST)
__ __ Shp -:- Some fun reading for you, Joey -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 23:33:43 (EST)
__ __ __ Lurker -:- Re: Some fun reading for you, Joey -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 12:10:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Some fun reading for you, Joey -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 13:28:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Shp -:- Reply to Lurker -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 13:08:22 (EST)
__ __ __ Runamok -:- Re: Some fun reading for you, Joey -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 02:44:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Shp -:- Reply to Runamok -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 11:39:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Re: Reply to Runamok -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 01:57:37 (EST)
__ Sir Dave -:- Re: Before I go listen to some music... -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 20:35:07 (EST)
__ __ Shp -:- Reply to Sir Dave -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 23:42:48 (EST)
__ __ Shp -:- Reply to Sir Dave -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 23:42:18 (EST)

Enough -:- The Power of Mumbo Jumbo(ot) -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 18:25:41 (EST)
__ Enough -:- Re: The Power of Mumbo Jumbo(ot) -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 08:17:19 (EST)
__ __ Joey -:- Re: The Power of Mumbo Jumbo(ot) -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 14:20:52 (EST)

Gregg -:- Bad Boy! You've been reading! -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 13:15:50 (EST)
__ bb -:- Re: Bad Boy! You've been reading! -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 23:47:22 (EST)
__ Charlie -:- Re: Bad Boy! You've been reading! -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 16:28:28 (EST)

Roger eDrek -:- Who the f**k is this guy? -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 05:26:51 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Just another example of how much we waste our time due to anonymity (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 11:15:18 (EST)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Re: Just another example of how much we waste our time due to anonymity (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 17:13:21 (EST)
__ __ __ Mili -:- Re: Just another example of how much we waste our time due to anonymity (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 14:26:42 (EST)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Who the f**k is this guy? -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 06:31:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- If you're not Rob, where the hell is he? -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 08:51:13 (EST)
__ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Who the f**k is this guy? -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 11:13:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Exactly! Dave and Ben -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 17:06:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Exactly! Dave and Ben -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 21:34:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: No worries mate!! -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 05:04:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: There, is this better? -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 20:06:07 (EST)
__ Katie -:- You're welcome, Cerberus -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:09:27 (EST)
__ __ Katie -:- PS, and BTW -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:15:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Shame on you! -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:17:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Bill is all right (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:45:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- A lot of ex-premies are OK -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:51:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Get off your high horse, Katie -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 11:13:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- What?? -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 13:36:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: What?? -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 15:29:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: What?? -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 15:38:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Some questions -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 02:32:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: I'll wait and see first -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 13:46:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roberus -:- Re: A lot of ex-premies are OK -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 02:28:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- I am very gullible but ultimately street-smart -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:27:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Link deleted as requested (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:38:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Somebody's playing silly buggers and it;s not me -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:44:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bbait -:- Re: Somebody's playing silly buggers and it;s not me -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:50:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Tell me it ain't so, Bill!! (sob) -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:53:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hook line and -:- it ain't so Bill -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 02:11:41 (EST)

LA-EX -:- video -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 23:50:46 (EST)

Black*[enter noun] -:- You appear to have missed my query -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 23:44:07 (EST)
__ Sir Dave -:- Re: You appear to have missed my query -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 03:55:25 (EST)

bb- -:- holy day of obligation -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 22:28:02 (EST)
__ Katie -:- Re: holy day of obligation -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 23:55:46 (EST)
__ __ bill -:- life of obligation -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:24:22 (EST)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Re: life of obligation -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:33:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- Re: life of obligation -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:48:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: life of obligation -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:59:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Re: life of obligation -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 02:23:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: life of obligation -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 02:44:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Wait, you were the one... -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 06:28:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- Re: Wait, you were the one... -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 22:50:15 (EST)

Joey -:- Fuck you Shp, you PHOBIASS!! -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 21:35:59 (EST)
__ Roger eDrek -:- ***Best of Forum*** -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 17:33:12 (EST)
__ __ Shp -:- Ex-premie peer pressure's deepest hell: Roger's Shithouse. -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 17:53:07 (EST)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Squeal like a pig! -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 18:29:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Shp -:- Is that drek on the corner of your mouth or are you just happy to see me? -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 18:52:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Shp -:- Is that drek on the corner of your mouth or are you just happy to see me? -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 18:46:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger Can't Take It Anymore eDrek -:- aaaagggggghhhhh! -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 18:56:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Roger is possessed by Lucy from the Peanuts strip -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 19:02:08 (EST)
__ Shp -:- Great research, poor understanding, Joey -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 12:37:00 (EST)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Shp, you are such a snake! -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 17:01:40 (EST)
__ __ __ Shp -:- Digusted reply to Roger -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 17:33:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Roger Igno eDrek -:- Re: Digusted reply to Roger -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 18:16:57 (EST)
__ Joey -:- Re: Fuck you Shp, you PHOBIASS!! (we'll try again with the html -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 21:42:05 (EST)
__ __ Katie -:- Responsibility for suicide -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 23:22:11 (EST)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Responsibility for suicide -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 18:27:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Responsibility for suicide -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 21:00:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Mickey - John 3, a bit of a paraphrase but born again none the less (nt) -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 02:58:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Mickey - John 3, a bit of a paraphrase but born again none the less (nt) -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 07:39:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Your paraphrase is incorrect -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 15:21:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Mickey, here is what Ram Dass says about it -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 12:26:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Shp -:- Comment on DD's post -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 18:57:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Yuck! This is incestous! (nt) -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 04:42:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Is Deputy Dog = Shp? -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 18:41:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Right from the pig-snake horse's mouth -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 19:06:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Is Deputy Dog = Shp? -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 18:47:04 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- You're wrong on this one, Katie -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 11:21:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Jim, ever tried using the phrase 'In my opinion . .' (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 18:44:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Jim, ever tried prefacing your statements with 'In my opinion . . .' (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 18:38:47 (EST)
__ __ __ bill....*>* -:- Responsibility-YES! -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 02:07:41 (EST)
__ __ Joey -:- Re: Fuck you Shp, you PHOBIASS!! (we'll try again with the html)...GOT IT!!(nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 21:46:10 (EST)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Thanks to Joey -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 05:57:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia G. -:- Re: Thanks to Joey -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 09:05:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Yes, Joey, excellent post -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 11:12:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- To Roger, Cynthia , gerry...thanks for your support on this one.(nt) -:- Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 21:29:08 (EST)


Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 04:38:50 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The Bus Depot and Street People
Message:
No, I don't hang around at the bus depot, although the Forum sure seems like one.

I was having coffee the other day and sitting outside and a street person whom I've labelled Ted Kacznski sat down at the table next to me and started going off. Well, he went off in short bursts and would stop for awhile and start up again. Ted was talking about World Trade/Free Trade. The production of electrical energy. Did you know that France relies entirely on diesel engines to produce their electricity? Ted told me about how the U.S. talks to Switzerland because that's where all the gold is.

And on and on Ted went. Fascinating stuff. Eventually, he got on the critical topic - why he was sick. Apparently, a nearby navy base is beaming radar at him and that's what makes him crazy.

Ok, the point is that Ted knew about lots of things. However, his facts were completely wrong. He didn't have a clue, but he sure could talk.

The point I'm trying to make is that there are some people who visit this bus depot of ours that are just like Ted Kaczynski in that they have a lot of facts, but no real understanding. They'll talk all day long without saying anything. They'll talk you in circles.

And then there's another type of street person who drops into the bus depot and that is the lying sociopath - that special person who is so much smarter and much more street wise than we could ever be. The sociopath will lie and lie and lie. They'll change their story on a daily basis. They'll tell you that their name is George one day and the next it's Ginger. Oh, and are they ever friendly and easy to talk to. They are well read on so many subjects.

So, what's the point? The point is that it is good that there are closed forums where these creeps cannot visit. Who knows why they are here? However, you know and you can hear them say that they've got some divine right/freedom of speech right to be here.

But, I will stick my neck out and say that these people have no right to be here and if I had control of the technology I'd boot 'em out and keep 'em out.

Ok, call me a fascist now.

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 17:10:54 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Roger, are you telling me to fuck off? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 01:29:45 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Consult your Bible, die and be reborn and you will know (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 14:00:14 (EST)
From: Lee
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: The Bus Depot and Street People
Message:
Dear Roger

I must be a fascist too! I completely agree with you. I am mystified why premies - non practising but particularly practising premies - come to the Forum to post. Usually they don't make sense. Often they just throw punches at us and verbal abuse. It's really tiresome.

I know there are some who think that the presence of premies brings spice to the Forum, but I think there's plenty of that just between the exes here.

Sometimes being exposed to the mental machinations of a premie is not a pretty sight - it sends a shiver up my spine because I know that I was once prey to that kind of deluded mindwarp. Many of them (not all) are sick and very confused and I guess I don't like seeing that.

I guess there's nothing we can do because the forum is open but I could do without them, thank you!

Lee

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 16:35:56 (EST)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: Lee
Subject: Re: The Bus Depot and Street People
Message:
Dear Roger,

That was a great post. Yours too, Lynn. Thank you.

I've decided that I won't respond at all to Shps posts anymore. There are others too, who seem only to want to cause disruption--and on purpose. The only thing I can figure out is that they're on the payroll, or seriously disturbed (I guess that could be both). To enter a site where people are discussing the many issues involved in exiting a cult and then to try to mind-fuck us during our effort is a terrible thing to do. It's cruel. That's my unhumble opinion.

When I first came to this site I read the whole ex-premie site first because I was sitting on the fence and leaning this way. I had gone to m's site first and frankly got really bored, and the music was awful. Very impersonal.

Reading ex premie journals helped me to understand the doubts I was experiencing for so long. Now that I've been here a little while, the posts have been very helpful, but it often feels like a war-zone. Do we have to defend what we know to be true about miragi? Of course, and that may be part of the purpose of this forum. Do we have to put up with people like Shp? (I know this will draw a response, sorry folks) No. His posts are boring and show confusion mixed with manipulation. He baits us. His mood swings are way too intense for me.

I won't allow anyone to interfere with this process I have now begun: undoing all the brainwashing and dealing with m's betrayals. I don't have time in my life for assholes. My asshole tolerance level went off the charts a long time ago.

Roger, when I first went to your house and opened the pix of m with the bit tits, I laughed so hard. I couldn't believe it. I feels really good to make fun of the big fraud, doesn't it?

Love, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 18:33:55 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: Re: The Bus Depot and Street People
Message:
Dear Cynthia -
Your posts are always so articulate - thanks for that.

I think some of the premies (and others) who post here are lonely. Also, this is about the only place in the world where people can talk about Maharaji freely - except maybe in small groups. I know that premies are attracted to the forum because of that. Plus some of the people who post here seem to actually ENJOY arguing (I personally, do not - my dad was a championship debater and loved to argue and I always lost every single argument I had with him - even if he was arguing about something he didn't even care about!).

As far as reading premie posts - I know a LOT of people who don't, and who don't read the premie vs ex-premie arguments. I think this is completely legitimate, and is a good thing to do, if that's the way you feel. I sometimes don't read premie posts, and sometimes do - it depends what mood I'm in. (Also, I think that choosing who's posts you will read or respond to is a very good idea.)

I am not sure that any of the people who post here are trying to 'mind-fuck' other people (although I'll admit that there's a possibility - if someone is trying to do that, then I feel VERY sorry for them). I do think that anyone posting here should know the gravity of the situation - how people have been hurt, and how hard it is can be for people in recovery. Sometimes I feel that people who come on this forum do not see the other posters as actual human beings - this is a tendency of the media (and some of the other interactive web sites are MUCH worse in this regard than the forum.)

Brian and I used to adminster the forum when it was on the ex-premie.org website (Forum III). One of the first questions we had to deal with is whether premies should be allowed to post at all. At that point, we decided YES - most of the premies then posting were sincere people and didn't spam the site with weird posts or whatever. (We did block a few people who did that later on.) Also, many of the EX-premies wanted premies to be allowed to post. And some of the premie/ex-premie dialogues produced very good posts. So, historically, premies have been allowed to post here. However, this could change, depending on the feelings of the present forum administrators, and on the feelings of the people who are currently using the forum.

Take care, Cynthia -
Love,
Katie

P.S. I find some of Roger's pictures on the DrekHouse to be a bit much for my taste (sorry, Rog). But it's good to know that they make people laugh! I do like the idea of the House of Drek, though.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 20:51:10 (EST)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Intent to Mind-F**k
Message:
I am not sure that any of the people who post here are trying to 'mind-fuck' other people (although I'll admit that
there's a possibility - if someone is trying to do that, then I feel VERY sorry for them).

Hi Katie,

having managed to read some of Cerby's posts before they got wiped off, I would assume from is method that he IS trying to 'fuck with our minds' so to speak. He claimed to have drifted in from another unrelated site just following random links, but really everything he said about reading the archives and so on to get background on Rob was too convenient. I don't know what the stats are re archive download but I guess they're not overwhelmed. For a stranger to get so worked up so quickly as to download and read masses of old posts defies belief. It was a part of his alibi story to gain credibility. Anyway I think it would be hard to find the Rob posts as I think many were on F4 before they were archived and much went on on AG also unarchived.

IMO Cerby is simply a familiar premie working his way in bit by bit with the intent of screwing up conversation between exes. BTW I noticed more and more how he was getting softer and softer on M as he went. I imagine he will announce that he has received the knowledge soon and tell us how wonderful it is.

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 14:28:50 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Re: Intent to Mind-F**k
Message:
Charlie,

I believe you hit the nail on the head re: Cerby's intent.
The cult's representatives on this forum have really no other way it seems, of defending their cult and leader.
Its a trip thats based on mind-fucking and deception...and thats what these people resort to in making their case on the forum.
As m himself might say (albeit in another context but who cares):

It's in their nature

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 16:52:05 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: Re: The Bus Depot and Street People
Message:
Thanks, Cynthia.

The credit for the picture of Maharaji mammaries goes to someone else here on the Forum. There was also another picture that I passed by. Yes, it's good to finally cast Maharaji in a bad light and have a good laugh about him.

I replied below to your Third Person plan for Shp, but I really thank you for saying what you've said about the matter. Having all the other good ex-premies on the Forum is a real healthy thing because of all the different perspectives and insights. While stuck in the battle with Shp, I couldn't figure out what was going on - I was getting confused (not enough to return to Big M, though.) And you've nailed it on the head and I can see clearly now.

Shp writes long posts and uses phrases well. He has an uncanny ability to turn the tables to undermine credibility through innuendo.

Basically, these people are disrupting the Forum and making it difficult to live in peace. What is so stupid is that they do not recognize the fact that the Forum is a place for ex-premies. While sometimes it might be necessary to have an outsider to correct a misstated fact, these people would like us to caveat everything we say about Maharaji with a statement of balance by one of them. That's ridiculous.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 18:09:46 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: pssss wanna see a feelthy picture??
Message:
Hi Cynthia and Roger,

I'm diggin what C is saying also. You too, Rog. I can't imagine what would have been like to spend decades in M's mind fuck cult. I really admire your strength and good humor. (both of you guys--and Joey, too)

Rog, the main reason I didn't continue in my 'return to M' scam any longer than I did, was to avoid confusing anyone. It probably wasn't a good idea in the first place and I apologize for any bad consequences.

Re: Shp yup, sicko, obsessed, possessed. Nothing we can do for him. We gave it our best shot. I think he may also (like Rawatt) be a sociopath. It sure is starting to sound that way.

Roger, I'm with you all the way on this ugly greek dog character. He's just a reincarnation of some other premie asshole.

BTW I was surfing the net and came across that picture which Roger passed on: Warning: Not for sensitive types!

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 03:11:52 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: djrayovac@aol.com
To: All
Subject: Numbers of exes
Message:
Can you imagine the actual number of exes that are out there? I would bet Mirage's retention rate is around a whopping 1%.

Think about it. There are easily thousands of people who are at least, occasionally, thinking about how to hook up with the community of ex-premies that they are a part of.

Do they lurk but not have time? Do they not have time? Do they lurk but not like what they see?

Are they inept at computing?

I was on computer bulletin boards 10 years ago and met no exes (or premies). When the internet really got rolling (5-6 years ago), I couldn't afford a computer powerful enough to handle it. I used to think it would be a great way to find ex-premies. When I started getting regular access maybe 3 or 4 years ago, I lurked at the forum for around a year, briefly checking it out every couple weeks.

I didn't see much on the forum, altho the ex-premie.org site was pretty good. I can't remember if JM's was up or not. Drek wasn't.

There are masses and masses of us compared to whatever numbers Mirage is able to muster up. Maybe not everyone is interested in being in touch, but I'm sure that the small group of repeat offenders (little joke, folks) here is not numericaly representative of our actual numbers.

It's something to think about. We're really not a small, psychically inbred group. Picturing the largest gathering with Miragey that I ever went to, I would think there are 20 times that many people interested in Miragey's demise at any given time. or should I say that they are actively interested in their own non-involvement with Miragey?

Those internet hitmeters don't tell us alot. They don't sort and do alot of demographics, particularly on a shoestring budget like we're on. How many different computers log on? How many log on and never post? There's a lot of us out there.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 11:07:46 (EST)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Re: Numbers of exes
Message:
I wouldn't imagine that there are as many people interested in the decline of M as you suggest. Sure enough the numbers of active premies today tell us that there's an awful lot of premies fallen to the wayside but I wouldn't call them exes. Nearly all the premies I know are what I'd call non-practicing premies. Some haven't been to a formal shindig in many years but when I engage in strong anti-M talk with them their true feelings surface. They have a softspot for the cult. I was soft on it for years. One day I decided to challenge my doubts and that was when the cracks became a canyon. It was like that for me and as I've discovered has been similar for many other exes who post here.

Becoming an ex is a concious step in itself.

Over the last few months I have had many long conversations with old premie pals re M. It always ends in strong language. Only yesterday I had to ask a well respected premie, talented and debonair to curb his foul language as my eleven year old daughter was in earshot. Man, he was going at it full throttle, totally abusive and all because I told him he was in a cult.

Sorry I'm going off the point...

Charlie

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 10:49:59 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Bad news for you Rawat!
Message:
There are easily thousands of people who are at least, occasionally, thinking about how to hook up with the community of ex-premies that they are a part of.

What makes you think they want to be a part of some 'exes community'?

I personally know quite some exes here, and most of them don't want that.

They enjoy talking about their past involvement at times, but that's all. For those who are aware of what's going on here, they approve it, but don't want to be a part of it.

Their lives are not connected to m & k so much anymore. Some of them don't want to waste more time on this. What's also very clear is that many of them have kept some connection with that new-age stuff, and can't afford to be too critic towards their past involvement. Lots of them don't have an internet access. Many of them also still have premies friends and don't want them to know what they think of m & k, I guess possibilities are many.
AND many of them still believe Rawat is some sort of deluded guru, but don't want to anayze this too much.

The truth is that lots of premies (and exes) are involved in other groups and cults. Holistic 'healings', falun gong, mahikari, mother meera, bhagwan, etc, the list is endless.

What I've recently discovered is that some other groups linked to the same Radhasoami traditions (Eckankar, MSIA, etc) are recruiting INSIDE Rawat's organization. I have proofs of this. Some of EV's high rank managers are in fact involved with other gurus, and are working under the cover of sister organizations ('Insight' seminars for instance) and recruiting INSIDE EV!

Can you believe this? I have documents distributed (to carefully selected premies) by one of them, and I'll have it online ASAP. I've recently discoved this when I was working on the translation of the document on 'shabdism in the US' on my website. I had no idea the 'Insight' seminars were linked to another guru. And many of EV's organizers (nationaly and internationaly) are involved in this. Bad news for you Rawat!

Your organization is really a rotten one!

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 14:03:34 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Number of Exes?
Message:
Dear Run -
I know about 30 people who are ex-premies and who do not participate in the forum. Most of them don't have the time or inclination, some of them aren't on-line, and a (very) few of them have been put off by the argumentative style of the forum (I can think of only two people who feel like this).

Jean-Michel said:
For those who are aware of what's going on here, they approve it, but don't want to be a part of it.

That's been my experience too. Most of the exes I know do know about the forum and site, but they're not interested in participating. They do think it's a good thing, though. I don't bug people about participating - I just try and get them to write their journeys entries (some of their 'journeys' are amazing).

Take care, Run -
Katie

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 01:48:24 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Number of Exes?
Message:
I talk to a lot of people who would like to have more to do with the ongoing online exfest but feel inhibited in one way or another. A lot more than either of you (JM, Katie).

My point is the sheer reality of the numbers, and while I agree with JM that there are a lot of re-recruited cultists, Miragey's 2 cents in the matter is really about all he has to speak for. Maybe 2% really and that's it. (Anybody say no 1%?)

But bad news for Miragey? I don't see why he doesn't retire from mastery all the way to bank, since he obviously is rich beyond any normal need for money. (Here's where the premies are gushing mush like 'because he IS the master'.)

There's a lot of inevitable opposition to Miragey by the numbers, that's all. I stick to my guns in speculating that more people, LOTS more people might like to be involved online. That's not SO crucial, but a perspective about who we actually are, which is a small group of people discussing something that affects an extremely larger group of people of whom we are probably representative.

And as per JM's points about new age involvement, the people who post and lurk here are more involved in meditation and 'new age' stuff than is discussed here (I mean you saw the need to try to start a forum about meditation, JM). I don't see the contradiction between meditating (or whatever) and hating Rawatt. I do it everyday and it beats the hell out of arati.

We've got him massacred by numbers, but he's got the goods (money) squirreled away (okay, hamstered away). But the numbers give me a little smile.

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 20:19:15 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: All
Subject: Marketing advice, freely given
Message:
These new names for things are unbelievably bland and unimaginative. PWK (Person With Knowledge) just about takes the biscuit! Calling everything by bland, boring names does not make it look less like a cult. Instead, it makes it look like a very boring cult.

Another ridiculous change is calling the old four techniques the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th techniques. God, how many business advisors did it take to come up with that one!

Look Maharaji; go back to the drawing board. People with knowledge should be called 'Children of Light'. The knowledge should be called 'The Stairway To Ecstacy' and the four techniques should be called, 'The Glory of God', 'The Heavenly Host of Angels Singing', 'Infinite Bliss' and 'Intoxication of the Gods'.

I'd also stongly advise you to put some sexual element into the knowledge too. Perhaps talk about divine orgasms, waves of ecstacy, intercourse with divine beings such as angelic, heavenly females/males (depending on preference) etc. You know the sort of thing.

And you should proclaim yourself to be 'The greatest ever incarnation of God in human form, come with more power than ever before, to save the World'.

Anything less, Maharaji, just won't work, believe me.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 13:39:09 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Agree with Joey
Message:
Please get rid of the swastika - very offensive to many of us (you too, I hope). The photo of M is from the home page of 'ex-premie.org' so we can look at THAT whenever we want.

BTW, I am not sure, but I think the 'Enjoying Life with Knowledge' logo and/or phrase might be copywrited by Elan Vital or another premie group.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 14:07:58 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Cerby
Subject: What issues?
Message:
dear Cerby -
What issues are you talking about in particular? Actually, I've appreciated many of your recent posts, and I think some other people have too. (Thanks for apologizing for posting the swastika, though.)

BTW, I know I say this all the time, but Dave and Roger are all right, really. They just get provoked, too.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 16:18:01 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: This is total B.S. Time to get real
Message:
Listen people, this Cerby guy is most likely somebody who has been here before under a different name. Whoever he is doesn't matter because this guy is not playing straight with us.

Notice when this guy is posting that those dots start appearing in the Forum. Hmmmmm?

Why do we feel that we can and should allow this person and others like him to waste our time? What is that obligation? Why continue the masochism that we learned to appreciate so much in the cult and elsewhere? Breaking free from the cult has taught me to be stronger within myself and not accept such abuse.

Cerby is a wolf in sheep's clothing and is playing some game on us and is laughing at us. The real people of the Forum need to be protected from such abuse.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 17:28:41 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Hey Rog
Message:
Roger -
I honestly don't know if the guy is for real or not. However, if anyone asks legitimate questions (which he has), I don't think it's a waste of time to answer them. If he doesn't get anything out of the replies, or, if as you say, he already knows the answers, maybe someone else will.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 17:41:15 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: No, don't waste your time
Message:
Katie,

You're being too nice. There's something seriously bogus and inconsistent about this guy. In his posts there are too many obvious contradictions where he cannot keep his story straight. He's toying with us.

If he is sincerely interested in having a dialogue see if he is willing to do it via email. I'll bet he won't go for it because it defeats whatever purpose he has.

I believe that we all owe it to everyone on this Forum to avoid the disruption that is intended.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 18:44:57 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Hey again, Rog
Message:
Hey Roger -
I'm willing to accept the possibility that Cerberus may be 'toying' with us. However I cannot see WHAT PURPOSE he'd have for doing that - all he's done is given me a soapbox to get up on and say things about how I feel about the forum. I don't care about being 'fooled' or whatever (I am, obviously, gullible - so what?).

Anyway, if YOU have thoughts about this, you're welcome to e-mail me.

Take care -
Katie
who should be packing...~!

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 14:37:58 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Cerby
Subject: Re: What issues?
Message:
Dear Cerby -
You wrote:
So I think the main issue is: if ex-premies didn't like Maharaji or Knowledge or the infrastructure of Elan Vital, why not just go on your way and forget the whole thing? It surely can't have done your heads in so badly that you have to resort to this kind of thing?

You probably won't be surprised to know that a lot of people ask this question - both premies and ex-premies! I guess my basic answer is that yes, following Maharaji DID 'do in a lot of people's heads badly'. Not everyone, but many people, and of course, these are the people who you usually hear from on the forum.

The Forum is the first place where ex-premies from all over have been able to come and talk about their feelings about Maharaji, their experiences with DLM/EV, and so forth. So, even if some of these people appear to be living in the past by talking about things that happened 10, 15, or 20 years ago, in many cases it's the first time that they've ever gotten a chance to talk about these things with anyone at all. Meanwhile, they've been walking around with a lot of unresolved issues in their heads for all those years.

Having a place to express anger at Maharaji is VERY freeing for some people, especially those who believed he was divine, or god, or whatever (for every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction, you know). I know that some of the things people say about Maharaji on the forum are very offensive to premies, but I firmly believe that it's part of the healing process. I do have a problem in cases when this anger spills over onto premies themselves, but this does happen.

Also, I have seen a lot of ex-premies 'go on their way' after using the forum to talk about their experiences, express anger, and so forth. So this does happen, believe it or not. There are a lot of 'ex' forum posters on there - people who used the forum to talk about what they needed to talk about, and to get support when they needed it.

Anyway, I hope this answers at least part of your question.

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 15:27:03 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Cerby
Subject: Re: Digging deeper
Message:
Dear Cerberus,
You wrote:
Are you able to explain what sort of ways people got 'hurt', because to be honest, I can't imagine how anything about Maharaji or Knowledge can do you harm? I'm not saying it isn't true, at least for yourself and others, I'm just saying I don't get it. Not understanding that, makes me see people here as just being malicious self-appointed enemies of Maharaji and gets my gander up..

I'm sure if you posted this question on the forum at large, you'd get a much more complete answer than I can give you. Also, you might want to read the History pages on the ex-premie.org site if you're not familiar with what went on during the seventies and eighties in DLM/EV.

Anyway, here's a brief summary:
1. A lot of us believed that M was God, or the incarnation of God, or the present day Perfect Master. And that the Knowledge meditation was IT - the only road to salvation and so forth. So when some of us didn't experience much from the knowledge meditation (this includes me, and I did try and meditate for two hours a day as M said to), this caused a lot of feelings of guilt, unworthiness, self-castigation, and so forth. Personally, I was afraid to leave because Maharaji had said that having Knowledge and not practicing it was like having 3 tons of vegetables and not eating them. They would rot, horribly. I was terrified of going crazy if I didn't practice the knowledge meditation, not to mention its prescribed adjuncts, service and satsang.

2. Ashrams. Although I didn't personally live in one, a lot of the people who post here did. They took vows of poverty, chastity, and humility, and basically spent their whole lives doing service to Maharaji - either by working and contributing all their earnings to him, or by doing other support work for M. Although some of the people who lived in the ashrams didn't follow their vows, many of them did, including several of the people who post here (Jim and JW are two I can think of right off the bat). Furthermore, single premies were often pressured to move into the ashram - if they didn't, they often felt that then they wouldn't have 'that experience' or that they weren't dedicated enough (more guilt). Maharaji closed the ashrams in the early 80's and many ashram residents were forced to then try and make a new life with no assets (and often a portion of a dept incurred by the ashram itself.)

3. Families. I knew married couples who had kids that felt horrible because they could not move into the ashram. Several of these couples moved to Florida in the late seventies to work on a project (DECA) renovating a plane for Maharaji's use (there's been a lot of talk about this project on the forum - suffice it to say that working conditions were not that great). Also, people gave up their children to move into the ashrams, and so that they could travel for Maharaji. There was a lot of pressure to put Maharaji's mission before ANY 'worldly' ties in one's life: children, spouses, parents, other family members. This caused people to do things that they now feel terrible about - not seeing their parents, getting divorced, abandoning their kids. In some cases, these things caused irreparable damage to families. Also, I am sure you have read about some of the child abuse issues on this forum - I won't go into that here.

4. There are several people posting on the forum, and many people who have posted in the past, who followed Maharaji for over TWENTY years. During this time, their whole external life revolved around Maharaji, their only real friends were in the premie community, they had to take jobs where they could travel to see Maharaji as often as possible, and so forth. When they became ex-premies, they basically lost all their friends and their entire support system and had to start figuring out how to live in the 'real world' - a very difficult situation.

Anyway, I hope this explains a bit more. You may also want to read the 'Journeys' entries on the site for personal testimony.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 17:38:28 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Cerb.
Subject: Re: Digging deeper
Message:
Dear Cerb -
There are a LOT of people on the forum who would like to talk to Maharaji honestly face-to-face. People have written letters, made phone calls, sent e-mails, so on and so forth, and no one has ever gotten an answer. I don't think Maharaji is interested in talking to any ex-premies in person, to tell you the truth. So it's kind of a moot point, but, to answer your question, yes, I think that an open dialogue with Maharaji in person would help clear the air here, ESPECIALLY if he admitted that he'd made mistakes and apologized for them (IMHO he has made a lot of mistakes.)

As far as the knowledge techniques - yes, I know they've been changed, but really they don't vary that much from the original techniques. I believe the reason that I didn't experience much is because the techniques are not for everyone - they certainly didn't do much for me, and for many other people I know. (I know several ex-premies who still use them and who get a lot out of the meditation.)

As far as spending my Saturday...we're getting ready to move across country, so I'm using the forum to take breaks in between packing. Life in the real world...

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 12:36:42 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Cerberus
Subject: Re: Now this, is advertising....
Message:
yeah Joey, because you copied the html codes from my original one!!!

Wrong Cerby!
I copied them from gerry:::))

You have a nice day too...or nice night...or whatever.

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 19:38:40 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Before I go listen to some music...
Message:
I just wanted to say that if there is a God (I say 'if' out of respect for any atheists and agnostics reading), He may very well favor you and your intense feelings and emotions over my caution regarding the Jagdeo thing. I am not beyond entertaining this thought for a minute. I don't know. One of the reasons I come here is because of the depth of your feelings about what it is your have committed yourself to. Whether or not I agree with you and your fact-based theories, I have to respect your level of committment. If I was as committed to practicing Knowledge as you are in your beliefs, I might be fully realized by now. I am moving cautiously and as non-impulsively as I can despite your slings and arrows to move faster or decide something faster than some of you find tolerable. In that place, much ill will is generated which does no one any good. I am sorry for any negativity I have been personally responsible for generating. Just wanted to share this with you all.
Good weekend to all, really.
Shp
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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 08:27:44 (EST)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: ALL
Subject: SO GO ALREADY, SHP!!!!
Message:
Hi Everybody,

I think Mr. Shp is having a difficult time leaving this forum. So I have a suggestion. Whenever, Shp or anyone else like him starts being disruptive, just read their posts and we can talk to eachother about them, in the third person. That way, the person can interject all they want, but we simply don't acknowledge them accept to eachother in conversation. It's hard, I know. Shp likes to bait us. Shp appears to me to be quite disturbed, based on my reading of his posts. There isn't a solid human being there, flip-flop, flip-flop. Nice, mean, confused, clear? No. Disturbed.

Because he and others aren't being blocked (which I have no opinion about either way) talking to eachother about the interloper rather than responding directly to them might be a way to avoid wasting time on the crap they write, like Shp.

Have a great weekend everybody,

Love Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 16:30:03 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: Good plan!
Message:
Cynthia,

Good plan! It occurred to me yesterday when I was battling Gollum, I mean Shp, that he is a very slippery character. He pretends to be so humble and willing to have a discussion, but in fact he is unable to do so. He will never really admit that he is wrong and he keeps asking the same question over and over again even though it's been answered. The whole thing left me quite confused. It's like having a conversation with a lying six year old child.

Yes, Shp is disturbed. I don't know why he continues to stay around.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 11:26:29 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: Reply to Cynthia...somebody read it to her in the 3rd person
Message:
Cynthia said:
'I think Mr. Shp is having a difficult time leaving this forum. So I have a suggestion. Whenever,
Shp or anyone else like him starts being disruptive, just read their posts and we can talk to
eachother about them, in the third person. That way, the person can interject all they want,
but we simply don't acknowledge them accept to eachother in conversation.'

Shp says:
Shunning is nothing new. Been around a really long time. And I was only leaving to go listen to some music last night. It was wishful thinking on your part to interpret my signoff to mean more.

I find it an interesting phenomenon that I don't come here with a gang of premies to hassle anybody. I come here alone, post alone, and stand by my words, corrected mistakes, an occasional foot in mouth and all.
Only on a very rare occasion I have dialogged with another premie here about something going down. On the other hand, many of the ex-premies find it necessary to come at me en masse regularly. Very few of you seem to have the communication skills to deal one-on-one, and if you do have them, you choose not to use them. Why is that? I have no hidden agenda to mess with any of you, and I think that certain ex-premies know that for sure. Those people are of stronger character and more mature than many of you, ex-premie or not. I am not saying this to divide you ex-premies up or anything like that, it's just the God's honest truth. You know how some of you have said that certain premies like Dennis Marciniak are good people even though they are premies? Well, guess what? It work both ways! Some of you exers are manifesting as real nice people
and some of you are being real assholes in the name of righteous indignation, a poor excuse to not being a civilized human being. And for posterity and just so those who choose to copy this and fuck around with my words and distort them don't have to go tot the trouble, this paragraph is with MY emphasis. -Shp

Cynthia goes on:
It's hard, I know. Shp likes to bait us. Shp appears to me to be quite disturbed, based on my reading of his posts. There isn't a solid human being there, flip-flop, flip-flop. Nice, mean, confused, clear?
No. Disturbed.

Shp says:
So you are now some sort of expert diagnostician of me. Amazing. I do not like to bait anyone.
And as for my solidity as a human being, you have no idea.

Cynthia continues:
Because he and others aren't being blocked (which I have no opinion about either way) talking
to each other about the interloper rather than responding directly to them might be a way to
avoid wasting time on the crap they write, like Shp.

Shp says:
Once again, shunning and group pressure are nothing new.

Cynthia signs off with:
Have a great weekend everybody,

Shp says:
Right, Cynthia. After all that, you wish me a good weekend too? Or am I now excluded from 'everybody' in your fishbowl universe?

Shp

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 12:08:55 (EST)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Shp, smarmy as ever
Message:
One of the reasons I come here is because of the depth
of your feelings about what it is your have committed yourself to.

No Shp, you come here because you are a sad wimp who can't find anything more fulfilling to do in you pathetic life.

I'm a sad wimp too but I'm prepared to admit it after all these years. I'm trying to staighten out and the forum has been benefit to me. Soon I think I may cease to post completely, I feel my life is coming back to me. If you are so pleased with m&k there should be no need for you to keep hanging out here. What's your real excuse to be here Shp? Tell you what, I'd rather not know.

I haven't been posting for a while as I've got family commitments a house building project and a backlog of work relating to my breakdown from the cult earlier this year.

Looking in again after a while I see the place is still being tormented by Australian flies and haunted by you. You continue to present yourself as intelegent, reasonable and charming but you only come over as a smarmy creep Shp.

You've got no balls.

Charlie

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 12:24:30 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Reply to Charlie
Message:
I suppose that when I am doing what you are doing you will testify that I do in fact have balls.
Male chauvinist, testosterone laden, peer pressure, what else???
Best wishes on the house and your personal recovery.
I hope both have solid foundations and last you your lifetime.
Shp
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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 20:57:29 (EST)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Reply to Charlie
Message:
I suppose that when I am doing what you are doing you will testify that I do in fact have balls.
Male chauvinist, testosterone laden, peer pressure, what else???
Best wishes on the house and your personal recovery.
I hope both have solid foundations and last you your lifetime.
Shp

Shp,

your comments and well wishes are as useful as a piece of spent chewing gum stuck to the sole of my shoe.

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 09:59:37 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Re: Reply to Charlie
Message:
Whenver I do that, I am reminded to pay closer attention to where I step, which is a very valuable lesson. Everything has a purpose. Even stepped-on spent chewing gum.
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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 12:47:53 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Shp, have you ALREADY forgotten?
Message:
You said you were going to leave us alone for the weekend.

What happened?

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 13:13:39 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Re: Shp, have you ALREADY forgotten?
Message:
I said I was going out to listen to some music last night, and I wished you all a good weekend. I did not say I was not posting over the weekend. Are you implying that by my wishing you a good weekend I was implying that I would not be posting? Witty and creative of you. I like that sharpness of wit.
Did you like the list of things you didn't....etc?
Shp
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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 13:21:27 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Shp, have you ALREADY forgotten?
Message:
Yes, Shpey...the list was really great.
Thank you so very much.
Very sweet of you.
In fact if you were any sweeter...

....YOU'D BE ALL ARMPIT!!

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 20:41:18 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Before YOU go, listen to THIS...
Message:
SHPey,

I was just looking through an old issue of the 'UTNE READER' at a friend's place, and I came across this one little news flash that just blew my mind.

Apparently the world's population of 1.3 billion cattle (that's right!...1.3 billion cows on the planet earth...isn't that amazing?!), RELEASES 70 MILLION TONS OF METHANE GAS INTO THE ATMOSPHERE!

And Shp, I'm tellin' ya...I'm reading this and I'm thinking to myself....now THIS IS FUCKING AMAZING. I mean I'm just blown away. I can't believe it...I mean thats really alot of fucking gas!! And it's just the world's cows!!

And then I thought of you Shp, and all that excitement from reading that news item just subsided and a feeling of calm began to fill me.
I realised it was no big deal.
I mean, SHPey...

YOU RELEASE MORE GAS WITH ONE POST THAN THE WORLD'S 1.3 BILLION COWS CAN RELEASE ANNUALLY!!:::))

Really and truly Shp, you are unique.

Now you can go.

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 23:33:43 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Some fun reading for you, Joey
Message:
Joey,
Since you are into obscure facts, I thought you might like these somebody recently sent me. This is waaaay off topic, but I thought since you liked the one about cowgas so much, we could bond...NOT!
But even though we can't bond now, enjoy these tidbits anyway.

Your headiness over the peer approval you received last time around....talk about gas, you were bouncing off the ceiling, giving accolades to those who supported you like you just won the friggin' Academy Award for posting or something fer Cheez Whiz's sakes almighty..
'I wanna thank God or not, and I wanna thank Cynthia and Roger and what's his name for supporting me through that really tough thread I had to deal with Shp on, an' I wanna thank all the little people, the premies, for coming here and making all this possible. You like me, you like me!!' Gas indeed.

When you and I first had dialog, we got along as I recall. But it seems that in most instances, premies and ex-premies are somehow destined to not get along. That is too bad. Maybe some other time when the air is clearer.
Shp

>> THINGS YOU DIDN'T KNOW YOU DIDN'T KNOW
>>
>> A crocodile cannot stick its tongue out.
>> A pig's orgasm lasts for 30 minutes.
>> A snail can sleep for three years.
>> All polar bears are left handed.
>> American Airlines saved $40,000 in 1987 by
>eliminating one olive from each salad served in
>first-class.
>> Americans on average eat 18 acres of pizza every
>> day.
>> An ostrich's eye is bigger than its brain.
>> Babies are born without knee caps. They don't
>> appear until the child reaches 2 to 6 years of age.
>> Butterflies taste with their feet
>> Cats have over one hundred vocal sounds, dogs only
>> have about 10.
>> Cats urine glows under a black light.
>
>> Dueling is legal in Paraguay as long as both parties
>> are registered blood donors.
>
>> February 1865 is the only month in recorded history
>> not to have a full moon.
>> Humans and dolphins are the only species that have
>> sex for pleasure.
>
>
>> If Barbie were life-size, her measurements would be
>> 39-23-33. She would stand seven feet, two inches
>tall and have a neck twice the length of a normal
>human's neck.
>
>> If you fart consistently for 6 years and 9 months,
>> enough gas is produced to create the energy of an
>atomic bomb.
>> If you yelled for 8 years, 7 months and 6 days, you
>> will have produced enough sound energy to heat one
>cup of coffee.
>
>> In the last 4000 years, no new animals have been
>> domesticated.
>> Leonardo Da Vinci invented the scissors.
>
>> Michael Jordan has more money from Nike annually
>> than all of the Nike factory workers in Malaysia
>combined.
>> No word in the English language rhymes with month.
>=
>> One of the reasons marijuana is illegal today is
>> because cotton growers in the 1930s lobbied against
>hemp farmers - they saw it as competition.
>> Our eyes are always the same size from birth, but
>> our nose and ears never stop growing.
>
>> Shakespeare invented the words 'assassination' and
>> 'bump'.
>> Some lions mate over 50 times a day.
>.
>> The ant always falls over on its right side when
>> intoxicated.
>> The average human eats eight spiders in their
>> lifetime at night.
>.
>> The cruise liner, Queen Elizabeth 2, moves only six
>> inches for each gallon of diesel that it burns.
>> The electric chair was invented by a dentist.
>.
>> The male praying mantis cannot copulate while its
>> head is attached to its body.The female initiates
>sex by ripping the male's head off.
>> The most common name in the world in Mohammed.
>> The name of all the continents end with the same
>> letter that they start with.
>> The Pentagon in Arlington, Virginia, has twice as
>> many bathrooms as necessary.When it was built in the
>1940s, the state of Virginia still had segregation
>> laws requiring separate toilet facilities for blacks
>> and whites.
>> The strongest muscle in the body is the tongue.
>> The word racecar and kayak are the same whether they
>> are read left to right or right to left.
>> There are two credit cards for every person in the
>> United States.
>> TYPEWRITER is the longest word that can be made
>> using the letters only on one row of the keyboard.
>> Women blink nearly twice as much as men.
>> You are more likely to be killed by a champagne cork
>> than by a poisonous spider.
>> You can't kill yourself by holding your breath.
>
>
>

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 12:10:18 (EST)
From: Lurker
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Some fun reading for you, Joey
Message:
Hi SHP:
Even though I have absolutely no part in this, I can't help but point out an error in one of your facts:

Shakespeare did no invent the word assasin. The word comes from the arabic Hashishim, a term used to describe a follower of 'the Old Man of the Mountain' the leader of a heretical muslim cult.
The initiation into this cult involved getting the neophite high on hashish and taking him to a garden which he was told was paradise. After being there for a few days, the neophite would wake up and find himself in a room where he would be told that he experienced paradise and if he wanted to guarantee his return after death, he should follow the Old Man's orders whatever they would be. At this point he became an official member.
This cult was involved in a great deal of political assasination plots by their half crazed followers called the 'hashishim', which eventually evolved into the word assisin (asesino in spanish).
This cult ended when Ghengis Kahn's hordes stormed their stronghold.
Regards,
Lurker

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 13:28:35 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Lurker
Subject: Re: Some fun reading for you, Joey
Message:
Lurker isn't me!
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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 13:08:22 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Lurker
Subject: Reply to Lurker
Message:
Hi Lurker,
This is not MY list. it was sent to me and seemed appropriate to forward to Joey, since he dug the cow gas thing so much. I too saw some stuff in there that stretches credulity like how much energy from yelling can heat up a cup of coffee....I can beleive that American Airlines saved $40K in a year by eliminating one olive from the salads. I think this list was mostly true with some humor thrown it, or that's my read. I knew about the origin of the word 'assassin' already...maybe Shakespeare coined it into English or something...
Lurker
Shp
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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 02:44:06 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Some fun reading for you, Joey
Message:
I liked that list Shp, but I thought Joey's post was pretty funny too. Too bad you guys can't, well never mind.

Shp, thanks for being less preachy, at least some of the time (you know and that's less preachy from way back when you would tell us Bible stories and run-of-the-mill satsang tales and I would ask people to please not respond to your posts when I wasn't telling to fuckoff). It doesn't hurt much to skip that preachy stuff, does it?

Except that post about 'if Miragey turns out to be the master' was really, how should I say, trez pukeanandaji, savez?

I don't think you would hang around this much without common ground. My personal priorities here are not about communicating with premies, but in a way I'm sorry that the environment is so argumentative. You do seem to get sucked right into it, tho.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 11:39:06 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Reply to Runamok
Message:
Hey Runamok,

Long time no cyber-see. My life experience and background involved alot of religious based thought, tradition and verbage, so naturally I have come from there alot as a result. I was born into one religion, went beyond it to embrace other beliefs and realizations, and ultimately met up with Maharaji. It was like a river meeting an ocean when I got Knowledge. So coming here and hearing about something like the Jagdeo story has slapped a cold washcloth on all that and made me sit up and look around. I have been troubleshooting my own life and path to where I am now because of this. I have been doing it out loud here and that has rubbed some of you the wrong way. Sorry.
I realize that the number of those who can or want to digest all that religious stuff to get to what I am trying to say grows less and less daily as more light of consciousness shines onto this world and into people's heads and hearts without the need or the desire for religious trappings. I understand what you mean about having so much couched in religious terminology being a hassle to you and others.
So that is one obstacle out of our way to communicate if we so choose, but I am sure there will be others, maybe some on your side too, that are dead weight to any real communication. I am open.
Shp

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 01:57:37 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Reply to Runamok
Message:
One thing remains the absolute same between us, Shp. You ought to learn to shut up more often. We would probably get along with you better if you did.

I managed to say a couple of nice things to you (or so I thought). I can understand where you are coming from in your response, but it's the same old sneak the preach in that has offended me from the beginning of time (yes our time together Shp).

Why comment on everything? You are a guest and all that, remember?

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 20:35:07 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Before I go listen to some music...
Message:

>
I think that God would favour everybody.>
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 23:42:48 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Reply to Sir Dave
Message:
Thank you for the soothing words and colour.>
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 23:42:18 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Reply to Sir Dave
Message:
Thank you for the soothing words and colours.>
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 18:25:41 (EST)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The Power of Mumbo Jumbo(ot)
Message:
Tomorrow night Evander Holyfield(U.S.) and Lennox Lewis(Brit)will box for the Heavyweight Championship of the World. Evander claims he will win this time because he will be led by the Holy Spirit. The Jesus cult is very popular in the sports world.

Let's get ready to rumble, Lord!!

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 08:17:19 (EST)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Re: The Power of Mumbo Jumbo(ot)
Message:
Well, it seems that Evander needed more than the holy spook.
Perhaps, he should have tried speaking in tongues or quoting the Bible.
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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 14:20:52 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Re: The Power of Mumbo Jumbo(ot)
Message:
Yup...Evander's days in the rink may be numbered now.
He was known as the guy who would ALWAYS beat you the second time around.
Not the case anymore.
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 13:15:50 (EST)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Bad Boy! You've been reading!
Message:
I used to believe reading was bad. Especially the newspapers. Unless you were reading satsang, of course. And unlike other cults (Scientology, Christianity, Urantia...) there just wasn't much in the way of approved texts. So I became a non-reader for my brief stay in the ashram.

Now, once again, I revel in words. I love reading. And writing. Kinda sad how cult members become ex-intellectuals. And kinda wonderful to leave the cult and rediscover the pleasures of sparking sparkling synapses.

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 23:47:22 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Re: Bad Boy! You've been reading!
Message:
Good grief, is there a following for the
Urantia book?
Some premie had it in 74 and he decided it was a
spiritual comic book. Big thick book with wierd ideas
about perfect planets in the center of the galaxy.
(right about where the black hole is??
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 16:28:28 (EST)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Re: Bad Boy! You've been reading!
Message:
Most cult members/premies that I know actually rejoice in their plumb ignorance. I was just talking to one who warned me of the dangers of the world and how it draws you in only to disappoint you.

Watch out, you'll get fried reading all that stuff!

Charlie

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 05:26:51 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Cerberus
Subject: Who the f**k is this guy?
Message:
Listen Spartucus, Rob, Catweasel, or whoever the hell you are - you're bogus.

Why don't you pick on somebody that would be more a better challenge to a person with your stature and expertise. Maybe, Microsoft or the Department of Defense or whatever they call from wherever you're really from.

Whatever you're doing around here is SICK. How about moving on?

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 11:15:18 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Just another example of how much we waste our time due to anonymity (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 17:13:21 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Just another example of how much we waste our time due to anonymity (nt)
Message:
I proposed an idea a long time ago where you would register a posting handle that would be password protected. The guests would be limited to some number of posts per day and this would be tied to an ISP. Guests posting would be flagged as a guest post.

Ok, you got your proxy servers. Hell, it would be a big job, but I'd make a list of them, if possible, and block them completely.

Unfortunately, this scheme would require custom programming.

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 14:26:42 (EST)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Just another example of how much we waste our time due to anonymity (nt)
Message:
Speaking of anonymity, how about putting a photo of your ugly mug online, Jim?
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 06:31:25 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Who the f**k is this guy?
Message:
Blackfool/dog/beard/heart/arse etc etc wrote in a thread below:

'I brought up the 'libel' suggestion, yes, but the above post, for which you kindly provided me with a handy new lower orifice, was meant to extrapolate on the Grander Plan of putting Maharaji down which Dave and others have been pontificating about for a considerable time.'

And yet he claims to have just stumbled onto the forum recently. No, this person is the same person who pretended to be a nerd son of some premie father some months ago. He has been numerous different people over the last few months.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 08:51:13 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Cereberus
Subject: If you're not Rob, where the hell is he?
Message:
I have thought you are Rob because in the past, Rob was quick to say he wasn't Rob when someone mistook him for a poster.

Throughout all my time saying that you are Rob, the real Rob has not come back and said that he wasn't you. This was my main reason for suspecting that you are he.

You do have to admit that your geek posts are exactly the same as Rob's. Now there's nothing wrong with Rob. He returned with more power than ever before a while ago on the AG forum. And then his posts were indistinct from yours. Small wonder that people think you're the same person.

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 11:13:38 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: Ben Lurking
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Who the f**k is this guy?
Message:
I don't remember seeing that browser before, now I must delve.
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 17:06:58 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Exactly! Dave and Ben
Message:
Yes, this guy is most likely the Son of Nerd and others and has been around for quite sometime.

Ben, I don't know for your but I don't think that Apache is a browser as it is web server software.

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 21:34:19 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Exactly! Dave and Ben
Message:
I read the config file online and it seems that it can be used as a browser but on the machine it it is configured on, he could alos be coming thru a proxy and it is dispalying the proxie as the browser type. Not worth worrying about -
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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 05:04:10 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Cerberus
Subject: Re: No worries mate!!
Message:
Play nice you are now violating copyright laws and an agent will not execute a command. Now how is grep going to do any pattern matching from stdin in your example.
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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 20:06:07 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Cerby
Subject: Re: There, is this better?
Message:
you are editing it on your end prior to post and it is recognizing your config file recompile per:

The BrowserMatch directive defines environment variables based on the User-Agent HTTP request header field. The first argument should be a POSIX.2 extended regular expression (similar to an egrep-style regex). The rest of the arguments give the names of variables to set, and optionally values to which they should be set. These take the form of

varname, or
!varname, or
varname=value
In the first form, the value will be set to '1'. The second will remove the given variable if already defined, and the third will set the variable to the value given by value. If a User-Agent string matches more than one entry, they will be merged. Entries are processed in the order in which they appear, and later entries can override earlier ones.

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:09:27 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Cerberus
Subject: You're welcome, Cerberus
Message:
And nice website too. Hope you like it in Boulder - that place is expensive!

I lived in Fort Collins for two years but I cannot even remember the name of the CSU football team - isn't that terrible! (I think it was the Rams because the high school team there was...the Lambkins.)

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:15:18 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Cerberus
Subject: PS, and BTW
Message:
I'm a bit confused here. Did you just steal that link? Or do you really live in Boulder:)? What's with all this UK stuff?

Gullibly yours,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:17:20 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Cerberus
Subject: Shame on you!
Message:
Can you imagine the e-mail that poor guy is gonna get!
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:45:15 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Cerberus
Subject: Bill is all right (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:51:22 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: C-bus
Subject: A lot of ex-premies are OK
Message:
Actually, a lot of people on this site are good people. I hesitate to name names because I'll leave a lot of people out, but if you ever wanted to try and talk to some of the people here, a lot of them would be willing to listen and respond in a thoughtful manner. I'm particularly thinking of the women on the site (my own prejudice, of course. Plus I am friends with several of them.) They don't deal well with obnoxiousness but are usually willing to talk to people who really try and communicate.
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 11:13:33 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Get off your high horse, Katie
Message:
Katie,

The fact is that every one here but the cult members are 'willing to communicate' -- even the men, believe it or not. It gets a little much watching you cozy up with these cult members sometimes.

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 13:36:07 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What??
Message:
Jim, I was just trying to talk to the guy (I'm not even sure he's a 'cult member', BTW.)
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 15:29:28 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: What??
Message:
Well if he is a follower then I am sure he doesn't consider himself a 'cult member' :=)
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 15:38:07 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Re: What??
Message:
Yeah, you're right. What I meant is that I am not certain that Blackdog/Cerberus/whoever is a premie, PWK, or whatever they are called these days.
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 02:32:07 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: Cerberus
Subject: Some questions
Message:
Dear Cerberus -
You have changed names a lot of times, but I think you probably (?) read what I wrote about 'Rob' in a post to you a while ago. I don't know why Sir David thinks you are Rob, but he has access to information that I don't have, so I don't want to dispute this issue unless all the cards are on the table.

Actually, the question I would most like to ask you right now is ARE you a premie (follower of Maharaji)? Or are you basically an observer here - someone who's never heard of Maharaji? I can imagine someone like that stumbling on this site and creating a sensation - believe me. Although I haven't been a follower of Maharaji since 1977, I am VERY protective of this forum, and other associated forums.

It's hard for new people to come onto this forum, especially if they identify themselves as premies (which you have), and even if they don't. I know that many people lurk here and don't post for that very reason - and basically, I am sorry that that is the case - but that's just the way it is.

Anyway, you are free to e-mail me any time you want (I NEVER reveal anyone's identity if entrusted to me via e-mail or otherwise. You can get testimonials to this on the forum.) I won't try and convert you, either.

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 13:46:59 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Cerberus
Subject: Re: I'll wait and see first
Message:
Hi Cerby -
Thanks for the offer to deal with anyone who is horrible to me, but I honestly don't need you to do that (I apppreciate it though). I've been posting here for a long time and have gotten used to be criticized and occasionally flamed. I can think of only three flames that have REALLY upset me and I usually just don't answer them. If you've read the archives, you'll see that Jim and I get into arguments a lot, but that's life. We disagree on some basic things about the forum so we're bound to get in fights sometimes.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 02:28:31 (EST)
From: Roberus
Email: None
To: Cerberus
Subject: Re: A lot of ex-premies are OK
Message:
Greetings wanderer,
You have to check out the Drekmasters fun house of
maharajiDrek.
Available link at top of page. Lots of humour seems to
happen here in between other things.
I have to go to bed!
bill
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:27:16 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: cerberus
Subject: I am very gullible but ultimately street-smart
Message:
It just takes me a while! (I wondered why that poor guy didn't have any Maharaji links - especially since he lives in Boulder!)

BTW, read what I said about Sir David below - he's a good guy.

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:38:10 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: c-bus
Subject: Re: Link deleted as requested (nt)
Message:
I appreciate it, and I'm sure 'Kyle' does too :)!
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:44:20 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Cerberus
Subject: Re: Somebody's playing silly buggers and it;s not me
Message:
Well, I'm glad it's not you - I was just going to ask you to take those lines out! BTW, I have made several premie friends since I started posting on this forum and lines never stopped me.
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:50:18 (EST)
From: bbait
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Somebody's playing silly buggers and it;s not me
Message:
I put the lines in there
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:53:20 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: bbait
Subject: Tell me it ain't so, Bill!! (sob)
Message:
I can't believe it. You musta been listening to the Devil, boy!
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 02:11:41 (EST)
From: hook line and
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: it ain't so Bill
Message:
The BAIT was claiming it was me, I fugured the line maker would post to claim THEY did it.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 23:50:46 (EST)
From: LA-EX
Email: None
To: All
Subject: video
Message:
Regarding the previous post about a documentary about m, I have heard a rumour, fairly substantial, I think, that a grooup of ex-premies in the LA area, possibly with some film/video experience, are starting to produce a half hour to one hour show exposing many of m's escapades. It is hard to get a lot of the important ex's to talk, but a number are ready and willing. It would be shown on satellite stations around the country and distributed to individuals and organizations around the country who request it over the internet. Not sure about too much else, but it sounded real to me. Anyone heard anything about this?
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 23:44:07 (EST)
From: Black*[enter noun]
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: You appear to have missed my query
Message:
Dave ,

In our Napoleonic thread below, you made this statement:

Maharaji has declared war on the ex-premies. He did that when he called us his enemies. People who talk about him openly and frankly are called his 'enemies' by him.

So if the Lord of the Universe is calling us his enemies, we'd better do something about it, hadn't we! Like, we'd better start acting like enemies and developing surreptitious plots and strategies because that's what enemies do, right?

Look, I'm only following agya, direct from the little Lord himself.

I followed up with a request for a reference for the source of this so-called 'Declaration of War', either in print or on video etc.

Are you still looking for it, or are you hoping I'll just trust that because you said it, it must be true?

Anyone else have the above quote anywhere. Jean-Michel in les récords Akashique peut-être? Or somewhere among Joey's books?

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 03:55:25 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Black*[enter noun]
Subject: Re: You appear to have missed my query
Message:
This was first said by Maharaji some time last year in India, I think. It was well documented here at the time and will be in the archives. I am amazed that you haven't heard it since it was a much publicised statement and known about by all premies.

But then I doubt that you are a premie.

When Maharaji first said that we were his enemies, I decided the gloves were off. If he sees people who talk about the suffering they went through under his regime as his enemies then certainly I am his enemy and he is mine.

Maharaji has created his own enemies. That is not a joke and those enemies which he has created by his thoughtlessness and dismissive attitude towards the suffering of his ex devotees will surely be his undoing here in the Western World.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 22:28:02 (EST)
From: bb-
Email: None
To: All
Subject: holy day of obligation
Message:
Yes it was the first day of the millenium of
peace, Nov 11 1973, Rice hotel, mahatma daranand
Houston Texas. I was introduced to the world
of Guru Maharaj Ji the lord of the universe
inside via his knowledge.
I USED to only notice the breath on acid trips
and during and after running.
But NOW, it was a 'gift' that indebted me to
give my all to the lord of the universe and
have him (someday?) tell me I have got it right.

But, even SHP hasnt heard THAT slap on the back
and the sharing of high fives with the lord
as they (me?) celebrate the 'realization
of knowledge' along with Joan apter, bill
patterson, bhole ji, and all those that
bailed out of the sunken ship of the glorious
lord.
ah what a anniversary, nov 11, 1,000 suns,
nectar, ugh.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 23:55:46 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: bb-
Subject: Re: holy day of obligation
Message:
Hi Bill -
My knowledge anniversary was November 7, 1972. Don't know why I remember that when I cannot even remember my own phone number anymore, but I do. I had forgotten the name of my mahatma, but it was 'Adharanand' (Jean-Michel prompted my memory) - do you think we got K from the same guy?

Anyway, I remember coming out of the knowledge session & being very disillusioned. My boyfriend at the time, who had been turned down, was waiting for me. I think we got in a fight on the way home. The premies in the ashram (who I really loved dearly) had told me that knowledge would solve all of my problems and that I would finally be ALL RIGHT. Needless to say, this didn't happen.

I did see some light during the K session (not 1,000 suns) but never have seen it since (I attribute this to the mahatma, BTW - he didn't do any eyeball pressing either). Never tasted nectar, but didn't know too many other people who did either. Had heard music when tripping, but not in the knowledge session. As for 'the word' - I got in on my heartbeat, not the breath. Weird. I don't do any of the meditations anymore except when I have to watch an M video that someone sends me - then I automatically go into 'the word' because M is BORING (IMHO).

Yer right - what an anniversary. Glad I am not 16 anymore, that's fer sure.

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:24:22 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: life of obligation
Message:
Hi Katie,
Daranand, if that was really his name, was young
and barely spoke english. A good hearted and innocent
type as we were at the time. I remember hopeing my
knowledge session mahatma would not be miserable like
I identified at least 2 of the mahatmas as being.
I thought they were mean, they were.
I was happy with the one I got.
I was asked this question during a festival selection
meeting 'do you want to be a great leader of men?'
and, reflecting the aspirancy I got from Rehka Dasi Loomba
in hartford, I said 'No I just want to be a humble servant
of satguru.'
Well! I got MY wish!

knowledge may not have solved allyour problems, but I think
YOU are all right.
What grevious offense did your boyfriend commit to
be barred from the heavenly gates?
Not YOUR heavenly gates, but the lord of the universe's.

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:33:13 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: life of obligation
Message:
Shoot, Bill - I think it was because he had not been going to satsang long enough (they were really tightening up the requirements around then - you had to have gone for at LEAST a month!). He finally did get K but I cannot remember when. After I got K, we went out to live in a commune in the mountains for several months - we smoked so much pot that I honestly don't remember much about it (except that it was really cold at night!). Finally I decided that I really needed to be dedicated to Maharaji to experience anything and started a VERY strict premie house with my boyfriend's sister (we were both 17 at the time, and really INTO the whole ashram trip.)

I remember Adharanand being really young and also very intense. I really wanted to ask him a question but I was so shy I couldn't speak up. In the middle of the Q and A session he turned to me and said 'Yes?'. I was pretty amazed by this. He was a nice guy and not weird.

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:48:11 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: life of obligation
Message:
I think adharanand was NOT the guy I got knowledge from,
This guy was on his first visit to the US at the millenium
fest73.
I thought it was adharanand that went to soulth america
and managed to get himself crowned by the enthusiastic
soulth americans!
Probably some 'I have realized knowlege' comment.
He got the boot as the word got out, because you know,
NO ONE realized knowlege.
I do like to feel the breath but I dont know if
it is a plus or a minus.
It could be a wierd factor, adding a separation from
things a bit.
On the plus side, it provides a wave of air nutrients
for my DNA to utilize.
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 01:59:25 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: life of obligation
Message:
Hey bill -
You'll probably have to check with Jean-Michel. If the guy was on his first vist, it probably wasn't Adharand, though. BTW, I was at Millenium. I volunteered to do service and got stuck in the WPC (can you imagine? I can show you a picture of what I looked like then - snicker). I had to direct people where to go in all the food lines, which was OK, and then at the night programs I had to guard a stupid door and not let anyone go past it. It must not have been a very important door, because all I could do was say 'Brother, Maharaji doesn't want you to go through that door'. Some people went through anyway, and I doubt if anyone even noticed. Anyway, that was the LAST time I volunteered to do service at any festival.
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 02:23:26 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: life of obligation
Message:
HI there Katence,
Even as an aspirant at that millenium 73 I was driven to
the opinion that the security premies of king raja ji
were harsh and hitler youthish.

Did you get your fair share of peanut sandwiches?
The khrishna freaks showed me two of the techniques
without me asking outside the hall, and the christians
put thier hands on my head in a circle and said prayers
claiming me soul for christ(yeshua).
Oh well! Cant pry ME away from the lord when he comes
only during this Kali Yuga and never before as powerful as
this with the full packet of powers and what not.

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 02:44:41 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: life of obligation
Message:
Hey bill -
Do not ask me why they chose me to be in the 'WPC'. I was 17, but looked like I was about 12. I did OK on directing the food lines (I think that the people in the food lines probably felt sorry for me), but was a failure at guarding doors during Maharaji's satsang at night. Fortunately, I don't think they gave me an important door to guard.

I don't remember about the food. All I remember is that I would come back at night and that all the other premies would be hanging around the motel pool, and I would think how spacey or bongo they were. I must have been insufferable. I wish now that I'd had enough sense not to volunteer for service AND to see Millenium as the chance to have a good time in Houston AND to hang around the hotel pool. It took me years to learn how to be that laid-back.

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 06:28:10 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Wait, you were the one...
Message:
Yes, yes, yes! Katie, it was YOU! The little WPC expletive that made my life miserable at Millenium. In charge of directing people through food lines. Yes, it was you. You were the one that singled me out every time and refused me admission to the food. I only got to eat twice at Millenium because of you. I nearly starved to death.
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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 22:50:15 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Wait, you were the one...
Message:
did you get a Millenium Bar?
I was a ga ga aspirant and belived the whole thing.
I didnt do service but hung out on the ground floor
and smelled the incense and was amazed at the show.
It was so brazen, and premies were SO sure, jeeze,
73 was so long ago and so many years were wasted in
satsang and the rest.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 21:35:59 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Fuck you Shp, you PHOBIASS!!
Message:
In a thread below, way below, entitled 'What is Hate', there was a fascinating display of of what IMO is Shp's total dishonesty, lack of sincerity and his bullshit attempt to dissuade exes fom participating in this forum, by in jecting what can only be called a cult like phobia into the discussion.
Nothing less than a suicide phobia. How very sweet.
Here's how he does it.
In his reponse to a post by Roger, Shp responds as follows in his post entitled 'Response to Roger and all'.

....I don't come here to quench my thirst, and I wonder whatever gave you that idea. Colorful language, but no substance to it.

The one issue of any substance that I ran across here - the Jagdeo matter - I became an advocate of and wrote to EV and Maharaji about it. Some EV muckity mucks might even have me on their shit list for that, who gives a fuck? I did what I thought was right. Premie or not, I am who I am. I do not buy into the weird concepts of what premies are as presented here or in the lives of some actual wacknuts who happen to have Knowledge.

The real issue as I see it is who are the people trying to be kind and who are the assholes?
Definition of kind: Doing good rather than harm.
Definition of asshole: Nothing but shit comes out of it.
That's the dividing line for me lately, not if somebody got K from M or PDQ or any other initials.

People coming to Knowledge may happen upon this website and change their minds. People leaving Knowledge may happen to read a premie post here and change their minds. I understand your desire to have a sheltered environment to do what you do with new arrivals, but sooner or later they will have to face the world and have the strength of their own convictions and not the vicarious power of an old timer who has been encouraging them and working with them.

Do you have licensed, bonded counselors over here who know what the hell they are doing? What happens if you are helping someone out of the 'cult' as you call it, and they flip out and hurt or kill themselves or someone else? Are you then responsible for their actions the same as you accuse Maharaji of being when premies have flipped out? I sincerely do not wish this scenario on you or anyone but hey, it could happen. Think about it. Gotta look at both sides of the coin.

Shp(Emphasis IS SHP'S OWN!)

When Roger responds to Shp pointing out the the ridiculousness of his argument, Shp's ready and he's all gung ho. Here it is.

Your reply is a cop out and you know it, Roger. The simple question is, if you are counseling someone who is leaving the 'cult' as you call it and they do something terrible to themselves or someone else, do you accept any of the legal or moral responsibility that perhaps you may have just said or suggested something not quite right in your attempt to to what you think is right and triggered a violent response unknowingly and unintentionally in the life of a fragile and injured soul, causing injury and possibly even death? It's a fair question and deserves more than your avoidance, if you have the integrity to face me on this and answer clearly.

Well now JHB enters the discussion and asks Shp if he thinks then that it would be a good idea for exes to stop talking here. Of course Shp responds that isn't his idea, but he ain't really backing down on his drive.

No, that is not what I am suggesting. What I am saying is that the responsibility for someone doing something hamrful to themselves or others is not always in the hands of those who are trying to help bring some good (as they see it) into the lives of others. This goes for you as well as Maharaji and his organization. If you attribute blame to him for those who did something outrageous (not referring to Jagdeo here - he is still on the table) while in his influence, then you must assume the same responsibility for those who may do something outrageous while in your influence. Otherwise, it's individual karma, and Maharaji is not responsible for premies who went off any more than you'd be if a new ex went postal while posting here daily. Are you willing to accept that? If not, then play another game that doesn't have such high stakes as human life and welfare.

JHB of course replied making an excellent case for Shp as to why his reasoning wasn't correct on this one, but hey, our Shpey's a man with a mission.

JHB,
Your calm and well worded reply is appreciated, yet you miss my point. Even if you do not have the same level of agreement with new ex-premies as Maharaji had, you are still giving advice, counseling, suggestions, and expressing your own experiences to someone who you know could be in a very fragile state. Are you or anyone here prepared to take on the responsibility for dropping or injuring that frgile being or triggering them to do something hurtful to themselves or someone else by your own ineptitude and/or personal transferred anger towards Maharaji? Messing with someone who is going through something like this can cause damage too, even if your intentions are good in your eyes.
Dante said the road to hell is paved with good intentions. And if you can accept this, I beleive that my post here is objective and not supportive or non-supportive of either side. Just look at this one issue and call the dogs off ofr me personally, or don't. The truth is not determined by popular vote on this site. It is independent of you, me and everybody and stands on its own virtue.

Why do you think society has developed trained, licensed counselors to deal with people who have deep problems? Are you taking the law into your own hands and laboring under the illusion that you can do no harm? Think again. you think you can counsel other folks just because you are having the same experience they are having. Not enough data, John, and I think you are smart enough to know it.

I am not here trying to hamper your activities or even slow you down. I am just saying objectively that the members of your site could unintentionally push someone over the edge who is coming away from Maharaji as easily as a demented instructor used to scar premies, and without even knowing it or understanding how it happened.

So what I hear you saying is that if a new ex is around here and posting regularly and getting all the news from the usual suspects, then out of grief or depression or some referred emotion that was magnified by someone here, feeds himself a bullet right after one particularly heavy night of reading, let's say Jim's vitriolic bombast, that no one here is in any way responsible. I disagree. When you try to help someone in any situation, you assume some of the moral responsibility for their welfare, period.
Shp

Now I had been reading Steve Hassan's 'Combatting Cult Mind Control' when all this yapping was going on by Shp about the potentially hazardous even tragic consequences awaiting exes, especially recent ones posting on this forum.
and here's what Hassan has to say about cult phobias.

What do phobias have to do with cult groups and mind control? In some cults, members are systematically made to be phobic about ever leaving the group. today's cults know how to effectively implant vivid negative images deep within member's unconscious minds, making it impossible for the member to even conceive of ever being happy and successful outside the group.
When the unconscious is programmed to accept the negative images, it behaves as though they were true. The unconscious mind is made to contain a substantial image bank-bank of all the bad things that will occur if anyone should ever betray the group. Members are programmed either overtly or subtly (depending on the organization) to believe that if they ever leave, they will die of some horrible disease , be hit by a car, be killed in a plane crash, or perhaps even cause the death of loved ones...
...cult phobias take away peoples choices. Members truly believe they will be destroyed if they leave the safety of the group. they think there are no other ways for them to grow--spiritually, intellectually, or emotionally. They are virtually enslaved by this mind control technique.

Well after reading this I thought of Shp and what he was doing on the forum,raising the phobic spectre of suicide for recent exes posting on the forum, and I began to think that this was what he was doing. A classic cult like mind fuck aimed at thwarting the participation of recent exes on this forum. So I called him on it in a post entitled, 'Shp, take your cult like phobias and shove it!!', where I also pointed out to Shp that his phobic dribble flew right in the face of what the experts were saying about the benefits for former cult members in participating in support groups of their peers. Well it took Shp a few days to reply, and if you've read the posts that I quoted above, and now read Shp's latest piece of denial and confusion....well you can judge for yourself.

I am not trying to induce phobias or any of the other accusations you mentioned. I am merely saying that Maharaji has repeatedly said that he is not a therapist and some folks need therapy before receiving Knowledge. If that is so, why do you hold him responsible for what people did who came to him? He has said many times that he does one thing and that is it. He reveals Knowledge. You want him to be a doctor, a nursemaid, a therapist, and so many other things you have heaped on him.
How convenient for you. His trip changed. What doesn't change in this world? The one thing he came to do, he has not waivered in accomplishing...he has been spreading Knowledge to people who want to have inner peace. Outer lives are messed up everywhere. Healing the inner is the first step.
Humanity got messed up over a period of thousands of years? You want fast-food microwave world peace. Not gonna happen.

I too have questions about things that have changed over the years, but nothing that would make me deny the fact that Knowledge is a tangible experience that helps me experience life on a more beautiful level whenever I practice. The questions I have do not shake my faith in Knowledge or the person who helped me experience it.

Shp, you can skate like a son of a bitch in this medium when you have to. Jim really has a point... you just wouldn't be able to get away with this on the phone, let alone in any face to face situation. You just couldn't duck out in one of those situations, and then come back with the pure and utter bullshit denial of a post, that you came back with in this instance.
I have to tell you Shp, that IMO your performance in that thread was pathetic. IF I ever gave you any credit of posessing even one iota of sincerity and honesty...I take it all back.
IMO, you're just a programmed cultlike little prick, and you certainly don't hesitate to play your cultlike little mindfucks on this forum.
How anyone could ever want to even read you here, let alone talk to you is beyond me.

But to each his own.

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 17:33:12 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: ***Best of Forum***
Message:
Roger's House of Maharaji Drek> ***Best of the Fourm***

Again, excellent job by Joey on putting together this fine post on a very important issue - leaving the cult.

And shame of Shp for trying to wiggle out of it.

P.S. I used the good HTML version.

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 17:53:07 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Ex-premie peer pressure's deepest hell: Roger's Shithouse.
Message:
So Joey has been praised, I have been blamed and exiled once again to Roger's Shithouse and all is well in ex-premieland. How juvenile. No intelligent conversation about what I actually said, just all this backslapping and ridiculous evaluation. I may leave from sheer disgust with you, and continue to communicate with those who I have a rapport with that transcends our differences in a more mature and peaceful way. Now I know you will get more outrageous because I said I'd leave because of it.
Go ahead and fly your true colors for all to see, and I'll be careful not to step in anything right behind you.
Shp

If this was the Lord of the Flies scenario, you'd be trying to kill me by now. I can feel it.

Shp

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 18:29:39 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Squeal like a pig!
Message:
Yes, Shp, yes! Please get disgusted and leave. What is it that I need to do?

So Joey has been praised, I have been blamed and exiled once again to Roger's Shithouse and all is well in ex-premieland.

Poor, poor old Shp. Nobody understands him. Others get praised and Shp gets razed. Shp you love being the martyr, don't you?

No intelligent conversation about what I actually said, just all this backslapping and ridiculous evaluation.

Yeah, that's what happened alright. What you said was a crock of shit. We are not responsible for what happens to anyone who comes to this Forum. First, if they have problems they should seek professional advice. Second, no one is forced to participate here. There is no captive audience.

If this was the Lord of the Flies scenario, you'd be trying to kill me by now. I can feel it.

Good, real good. Shp, do me a favor and try this link out, Just For Shp

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 18:52:15 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Is that drek on the corner of your mouth or are you just happy to see me?
Message:
Snakes and pigs and juvenile insults.
You stop being funny when the truth is told here by a premie.
Then you get all puffed up and self-righteous.
Thanks for answering me in your cloaked way about how you feel about responsibility for who you counsel. I did catch that embedded in all the insults and I respectfully disagree with you.
No, I'm not a martyr, that's just your perverted twist on the conversation.
Just because you don't get it doesn't mean nobody else does.
Some people understand what I'm saying.
You need a crowd around you to feel brave, dontcha?
It's always 'everybody thinks you stink' or 'nobody likes you', or something like that.
Can't you just speak for YOU or do you need to invoke a group to say your piece of drek?
And by the way, it's Katie who believes in sucide as a choice, not me in particular.
The Hemlock Soceity is more in her interest than mine.
Sorry to disappoint you.
Have a great weekend.
Forget me, go enjoy yourself.
OOPs, I said the E word.
B'bye.
Shp
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 18:46:56 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Is that drek on the corner of your mouth or are you just happy to see me?
Message:
Snakes and pigs and juvenile insults.
You stop being funny when the truth is told here by a premie.
Then you get all puffed up and self-righteous.
No, I'm not a martyr, that's just your perverted twist on the conversation.
And by the way, it's Katie who believes in sucide as a choice, not me in particular.
The Hemlock Soceity is more in her interest than mine.
Sorry to disappoint you.
Have a great weekend.
Forget me, go enjoy yourself.
OOPs, I said the E word.
B'bye.
Shp
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 18:56:33 (EST)
From: Roger Can't Take It Anymore eDrek
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: aaaagggggghhhhh!
Message:
You stop being funny when the truth is told here by a premie.

That's right. You were speaking of the Truth. None of what WE say could ever be true. You carry the torch and have an exclusive contract with the Lord because he appreciates your learned wisdom.

Talk about arrogant!

Shp, what are you smoking?

That's it. I'm going to pass on your crap for awhile. It's like talking to wise-ass little six year old kid.

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 19:02:08 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Roger Can't Take It Anymore eDrek
Subject: Roger is possessed by Lucy from the Peanuts strip
Message:
'None of what WE say could ever be true. You carry the torch and have an exclusive contract with the Lord because he appreciates your learned wisdom' -Roger

I never said or even thought that. This is an example of your distorted image of me that puts words in my mouth I never even thought, let alone said. Can't change you, only myself. Do what you do, man.
Catch ya later. And I really hope you have a good weekend. Sounds like this week must have been rough on ya.
Shp

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 12:37:00 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Great research, poor understanding, Joey
Message:
Joey,

You give me way too much credit for plotting against you and yours. I just sit here and shoot from the hip, no premeditated strategy, no contact with anyone at the residence or EV, no 'photographs of the garbage with circles and arrows on the back.' (Arlo Guthrie / Alice's Restaurant) Just me. No shit. Free agent exercising my free will to find out why some people left something and someone I have found very enjoyable. It's a natural curiosity, and the simplicty of my being here is being lost in your intrigues and fears. I respect your right to your feelings and even understand why you are acting the way you are, and am trying not to take your shit personally.

You had to twist my words into a pretzel in order to hook them onto Hassan's findings which distorted me just enough for you to make your point. God, I hate all this tedious sorting of bullshit that you have included me in, but in the interest of the truth I must, or just ignore you and go my way as my back fills up with your drek-tipped arrows. I could go either way with a good conscience, I have no obligation or compulsion to be here, it's all free will and voluntary. So for now I choose to hang in and deal with you and your unconnected thought processes which happen to involve me, for as long as your administrator allows me to be a guest.

I don't have any phobias about myself or anyone else leaving Maharaji, and I don't think a piano will fall on the head of someone because they walk away or something terrible will happen, as you make it sound. Do you?

My original point, which you completely missed, is the fact that I firmly believe that counseling, advising and directing others carries some personal responsibility, whether from Maharaji and his representatives to premies, you and others here to tentative and new ex-premies, or the gas station attendant who misdirects an out-of-towner into a neighborhood of crackhouse shooting galleries.

You went to alot of work for nothing. Anyone who is studiously following this issue knows what is being said and by whom. You will always have your audience of the semi-informed who don't have the interest or span of attention to follow the details and call you out on your own inaccuracies. Your audience consists of in large part folks who just want to feel the adrenaline of an online fight. Most of you ex-premies stick together right or wrong just like you accuse Maharaji, the instructors and premies in general of doing, with only a handful stepping up and speaking their minds counter to the ex party line, for which they get summarily reprimanded by Jim Heller for thinking anything remotely positive about a premie.

I don't give a.....(not gonna say rat's ass this time)....hoot if you or any other ex-premie reconsiders his or her position about Maharaji or not. Nor do I harbor any overt or covert intent to undermine your efforts here, as I have reiterated many times. I am here because of a natural curiosity about why some people were doing something that I do too which I have found very satisfying, and they stopped doing it. Boiling down all the issues presented on this site that criticize Maharaji, I personally find one is truly an issue of grave concern and that is about Jagdeo and how the that whole thing was handled from the side of Maharaji/EV. Not gonna bore you with any more reiterations. Check the archives.

People act all scary when they are scared. You and some of the others constantly come on real scary at me. What are you scared of? I have individual online relationships with various ex-premies, ranging from mutual respect to all-out cyber war being waged against me. I take each person as an individual. What I don't feel is that happening very much from your side of the fence, with only a very few of you being genuinely original or personally honest about this one-on-one thing.

Are you really representing yourself and your own personal feelings, or is there just a touch of you trying to impress exers you respect that your permanent teeth are coming in and you are ready to hunt with the big boys?

Shp

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 17:01:40 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Shp, you are such a snake!
Message:
As per usual I could not read your post in its entirety. Let's get a few of the highlights that I did read:

You give me way too much credit for plotting against you and yours.

No, I don't think that anyone really thinks that you were conciously trying to install an element of fear. It's just that you are brainwashed by the cult as Hassan says.

I respect your right to your feelings and even understand why you are acting the way you are...

Oh, bullshit! Shp, you are such a pro, but the bottom line is that you have no respect for anyone here including yourself.

Free agent exercising my free will to find out why some people left something and someone I have found very enjoyable. It's a natural curiosity, and the simplicty of my being here is being lost in your intrigues and fears.

I believe you originally stated that you were here because you were on the fence. Now a new reason, a natural curiosity. No, I'd say that you are obsessed and need to get a life.

Most of you ex-premies stick together right or wrong just like you accuse Maharaji, the instructors and premies in general of doing, with only a handful stepping up and speaking their minds counter to the ex party line, for which they get summarily reprimanded by Jim Heller for thinking anything remotely positive about a premie.

What? You cannot understand that ex-premies will share the same viewpoint in regards to Maharaji? I would hazard to guess that many of the ex-premies feel much the same about Maharaji where we believe he is a fraud and he has been a negative influence on many people's lives. Pretty simple. Maybe you should read more posts, instead of writing so many, to get a better understanding of where we are coming from. Get a clue.

Finally, Are you really representing yourself and your own personal feelings, or is there just a touch of you trying to impress exers you respect that your permanent teeth are coming in and you are ready to hunt with the big boys?

What a total crock! Since Day One Joey has always been his own person on the Forums and he has made some incredible posts that have gone to the heart of the matter at exposing Maharaji for what he is.

Shp, like I said and Gerry too, you are a snake, a slippery snake. You post under bogus names. You keep changing your tune. You lambast us with your religious garbage. You are pompous and lame. And you are ridiculously stupid to think that your presence here should get any other response than it typically gets.

If I was running the Forum I'd block you in a heartbeat and get all of your pithy email again.

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 17:33:55 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Digusted reply to Roger
Message:
Roger,
First of all, I was responding to Joey. But that is how it goes around here. There is a dialog happening, some ex gets wedged in by their own words, and then the gang starts in. Later on we will probably have entries from a few other regulars and then maybe Jim will make his center stage prime time appearance and deliver what you will all applaud as the coup de grace. You guys are so damned predictable, now you'll probably do something else since I laid it all out like your dirty laundry.

I posted under bogus names a really long time ago and have not done so in many months. It was a spoof of what some of you were doing at EV and I proved anyone can do it, even me, while you were all slapping Jim on the back for getting past Brian or Bruce or someone. I have promised to never do that again months ago and have kept my word.

Every ex-premie is not as intensely hateful as every other ex-premie. Some ex-premies just did not dig it anymore and went their way, with no hatred or bad feelings lingering towards Maharaji or premies.
You are ignorant and arrogant to assume that every ex-premie has the same agenda as you.
Shp

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 18:16:57 (EST)
From: Roger Igno eDrek
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Re: Digusted reply to Roger
Message:
First of all, I was responding to Joey. But that is how it goes around here. There is a dialog happening, some ex gets wedged in by their own words, and then the gang starts in.

Good spin. Attack my credibility right off the bat on busting in on your dialogue with Joey. Man, I wish I knew what the correct protocol was on this public forum.

Secondly, you say some ex gets wedged in by their own words. Wrong! The only person to get wedged was you. Good spin.

I posted under bogus names a really long time ago and have not done so in many months. It was a spoof of what some of you were doing at EV and I proved anyone can do it.

No, I believe what it was was you saying that you were leaving the Forum, something like sitting in the bleachers or something. Also, Shp had pretty much lost most of his credibility by then.

Oh this is good!

Every ex-premie is not as intensely hateful as every other ex-premie. Some ex-premies just did not dig it anymore and went their way, with no hatred or bad feelings lingering towards Maharaji or premies.

You are ignorant and arrogant to assume that every ex-premie has the same agenda as you.

Obviously you're reading comprehension is deficient as I said:

I would hazard to guess that many of the ex-premies feel much the same about Maharaji where we believe he is a fraud and he has been a negative influence on many people's lives.

Shp, you are a complete jackass to attempt to attribute me with believing that all ex-premies are the same and have the same agenda towards Maharaji. You are truly grasping at straws in your endless effort not to admit that maybe, somehow you might be wrong. It would appear that you are completely brainwashed regardless of how you fancy it up with all of your 'I'm my own man' talk and all of your spiritual gibberish.

I'm asking myself why the hell am I spending so much time with you, Shp. Why, why, why? Personally, I don't give a rat's ass about YOU, but I really detest the idea that you are using our Forum to post your stupid ideas and your spin control for Maharaji. Yes, yes, yes, you are providing balance to all of our unbalanced and unsubstantiated facts - yada, yada, yada.

Go to Maharaji's websites if you want balance. It's all there. You don't have to balance us.

ignorant and arrogant - those words best describe yourself and you know that!

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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 21:42:05 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Re: Fuck you Shp, you PHOBIASS!! (we'll try again with the html
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 23:22:11 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Responsibility for suicide
Message:
In the last several months, I've gotten extremely averse to laying the responsibility for a person's suicide on anyone but that person themselves. Part of this is because two children of friends of mine who have posted on the forum have committed suicide in the past year. These children came from imperfect yet very loving families. Their suicides have devastated their parents, and have hurt their brothers, sister, other family, and their friends as well. I don't blame these kids for committing suicide - I know that some people are just too sensitive and/or too fragile to live in this world, and are also unable to ask for help - but I also wish the other people involved would not lay blame on themselves (I am absolutely sure that their children, brother, sisters, etc. would not want this).

Hypothetical or not, I wish that no one here would seek to lay the blame for ANY suicide on ANYONE else. This includes Maharaji. As many of you know, one of the reasons I started posting on the forum was because a very good premie friend of mine killed himself. I am not sure of the circumstances surrounding this suicide, but I do know how much primal and unnecessary guilt this person suffered under all his life. Unfortunately, becoming a follower of Maharaji just intensified his guilt - he never felt like he was good enough, worth enough, doing enough. One of the reasons I think this forum and ex-premie.org are so important is because they provide a place where many people can say 'we stopped following Maharaji and we are all right.' And also, if YOU stop following Maharaji, you can be all right, too. I feel that if my friend could have heard that it might have helped him a lot.

Of course I worry that people who read this forum may become distraught and may even become suicidal or self-destructive. It's very hard to begin to realize that something you've believed in for years isn't true. I have talked to and e-mailed a lot of people who were having a hard time after leaving Maharaji, and I know it's not easy for anyone to do that. However, I don't think anyone here has EVER suggested that the forum should be a substitute for professional help, if needed. This is just a support group (among other things), and support can be found here - if not on the forum itself, then via e-mailing people that one feels comfortable with. But I have always urged anyone who feels suicidal to PLEASE seek professional help (Because of my own personal history, I have absolutely no personal stigmas attached to seeking counseling, and I would hope that most of the people here have gotten over their own stigmas too! Just know that it may take two or three tries to find the right counselor, and be patient.)

I guess that in conclusion I'd just like to repeat my opinion that no one, except the person themselves, is responsible for anyone else's suicide. Also, that that person should not be blamed for killing themselves. Although many people may disagree with me, I feel that suicide is an option that's available to all of us. Although almost all of us prefer not to exercise that option, some people do, and I don't fault them for it. I just don't feel that anyone else should be blamed for it.

Take care -
Love,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 18:27:26 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Responsibility for suicide
Message:
Katie,

In all forms of meditation we eventually arrive at the dark night of the soul. It is this process of death and rebirth that leads us to freedom. As Jesus said, 'You've got to die to be reborn.' All spiritual traditions agree that our limited identity is not our true nature.

Zen teacher Karlfried von Durkheim describes it this way,

'The person who, being really on the Way, falls upon hard times in the world, will not, as a consequence, turn to that friend that offers him refuge and comfort and encourages their old self to survive. Rather, he will seek out someone who will faithfully and inexorably help him to risk himself, so that he may endure the difficulty and pass courageously through it.

Only to the extent that a person exposes himself over and over again to annihilation, can that which is indestructible be found within them. In this daring lies dignity and the spirit of true awakening.'

Dep

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 21:00:36 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: Responsibility for suicide
Message:
Deputy Dog writes: ' As Jesus said, 'You've got to die to be reborn.'
Please sir, quote chapter and verse. Don't do as SHP does and misquote from memory. It is too easy to say 'it is written' or 'as Jesus said,' or 'in the Bible it says...' If using non-canonical sources, explain why you believe that this quote is authentic.
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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 02:58:17 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Mickey - John 3, a bit of a paraphrase but born again none the less (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 07:39:28 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: Mickey - John 3, a bit of a paraphrase but born again none the less (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 15:21:00 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Deputy Dawg
Subject: Your paraphrase is incorrect
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 12:26:49 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Mickey, here is what Ram Dass says about it
Message:
'Very often people report to me that meditation has brought an emptiness into their life. Everything seems meaningless. It takes great faith to ride through such heavy periods of spiritual transformation.

It is sad to see one's story line turn into empty form. The dark night of the soul is when you have lost the flavor of life but have not gained the fullness of divinity. So it is that we must weather the dark time, the period of transformation when what is familiar has been taken away, and the new richness is not yet ours. As Christ said, one must truly die and be born again.'

Ram Dass

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 18:57:04 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Comment on DD's post
Message:
Yeah!
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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 04:42:52 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Yuck! This is incestous! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 18:41:10 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Is Deputy Dog = Shp?
Message:
I'm getting confused. In another post Shp says that he only posts using 'Shp', but Deputy Dog sounds way too much like Shp.

If so then does that mean that Shp lied to me? Is Shp a liar?

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 19:06:37 (EST)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Right from the pig-snake horse's mouth
Message:
Roger,
In answer to your question about me being a liar, I will patiently indulge you once more and say that I may have many faults but lying is not one of them. Believe me or don't. Are you really Barney?
Are Barney and Roger really Jim? Is Jim really Jim?
Shp
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 18:47:04 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Is Deputy Dog = Shp?
Message:
Roger,

Don't worry, there will plenty of time for tomfoolery later.

Dep

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 11:21:52 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: You're wrong on this one, Katie
Message:
Katie,

In your continuing efforts to soften the blow of ex-premie criticisms of their former cult leader you've really extended yourself this time. But boy are you wrong! Dave Wiener killed himself for one reason only: he was so immersed in the cult dogma and resulting fear of his mind that he got spooked. Spooked to death.

I know. I was there. I talked with him. I knew him well before Maharaji. I knew him well after. What you're saying is fully, fully wrong.

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 18:44:09 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, ever tried using the phrase 'In my opinion . .' (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 18:38:47 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, ever tried prefacing your statements with 'In my opinion . . .' (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 02:07:41 (EST)
From: bill....*>*
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Responsibility-YES!
Message:
I bet jim will weigh in, Rush limbough tried to make
the case that followers of whomever were completely
independent and were totally on thier own as far as
thier actions.
His attempt at convinceing on this issue fell flat then and
you also paint with too broad a brush on this.
People set themselves up to influence others and in a big
way! And then they claim to have had 'little' of NO effect
if someone takes action that would somehow taint the
leader.
Anyone trying to lead others, is responsible for thier
sloppy stupid poorly thought out program and all its
consequences and far reaching effects.
They dont show that kind of responsiblity and they then
claim 'they arent responsible' for thier delusion and
its effect on others.
I dont let them off the hook.
SHP has called it like it is......prem rawat was surrounded
by 'DISHONEST PREMIES'! rawat was pure and faultless.
TYPICAL!
And, Katie dear, not true.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 at 21:46:10 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Re: Fuck you Shp, you PHOBIASS!! (we'll try again with the html)...GOT IT!!(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 05:57:21 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Thanks to Joey
Message:
Joey, regardless that your HTML got away from you the first time your effort on this Shp thing was very worthwhile and brought up a very important and key point when considering leaving the cult - negative consequences. It's interesting to consider the book you were reading and the books that Shp probably reads. And Katie's input was appropriately good, too.

I must confess that I just don't have enough gas to go all the way with Shp as he is just too boring and too slippery for me. On and on he goes with his quotes and 'It is saids' and he is just so wrong all over the place that I completely lose my patience and give up.

And this was an important issue where Shp was trying to slip in a double whammy of disinformation aiming to put fear in both ex-premies and premies regarding the possible negative consequences of aiding and urging people to leave the cult and actually leaving the cult, respectively.

Shp, Shp, Shp. Please leave us alone.

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 09:05:01 (EST)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: All
Subject: Re: Thanks to Joey
Message:
Hi Everybody,

Joey, GOOD FIND! I was feeling very icky about Shp! Your post confirmed my feelings. See, even in cyberspace, one can feel from reading words. As far as I'm concerned, Shp is intrusive and invasive, not to mention evasive.

Enough about him/her?

Kathie, your post about suicide was right on for me. Everyone has a history of life before m that can contribute to reaching that ultimate point of desparation. I don't minimize the contribution that the degradation m spewed amongst us in the past had an effect on those people who killed themselves.

However, I've learned through experience (a close friend committed suicide about 5 years ago), that if a person is determined to do it they will. The anger which survivors, i.e., family and friends feel toward the person who takes his/her own life often gets transferred onto someone as blame. There is also survivor guilt. The why question is never answered, even if a note is left. It's so different than when people die in other circumstances. So difficult to accept. When my friend died I was so mad at him for not being able to work through his pain. I've come to accept that he was just one of us humans who couldn't endure life. Acceptance is a step in the grieving process that is important to take at least for me.

As far as this forum is concerned, no one can take responsibility for someone elses actions. If someone were to post here saying they were suicidal, I would try to convince that person to seek help immediately. I worked on a sexual assault crisis team hotline and was trained that if the issue of suicide came up on a call, we would call the mental health screeners (professionals) immediately because we, as a rape crisis team were only trained volunteers and were told to always take anyone expressing suicidal ideation very seriously.

I consider this forum a support group--not group therapy. In order for it to be a therapy group a trained professional would have to moderate the forum and that's just not what I understand this to be. I haven't seen or read anything here that would push someone over the edge to suicide except, frankly, the satsang and warped advice and thinking of premies who post here.

That's my 2 cents on these issues. Thanks again for great posts!!

Love, Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 11:12:43 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Yes, Joey, excellent post
Message:
I too, wish Shp would leave. He is insidious and driven to create havoc, pain and fear in his own inimitable sneaky way.

I once had hopes for him but, no longer harbor any such illusions. He's stuck, and he likes it. His cult membership (and ironically, his participation here) shores up what seems otherwise to be a very shaky personality and ego structure.

I think he should be blocked from further posting. He's a time waster, a lost cause, and a snake in the grass.

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Date: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 21:29:08 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: To Roger, Cynthia , gerry...thanks for your support on this one.(nt)
Message:
nt
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