Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum
Archive: 11
From: Thurs, Nov 11, 1999 To: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 Page: 2 Of: 5


la-ex -:- mistress/affairs/finances -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 00:19:11 (EST)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Just a guess in general -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 04:05:27 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Don't know but sure would like to -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 00:29:35 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia G. -:- Re: Don't know but sure would like to -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 09:14:22 (EST)
__ __ __ sifting4u -:- Re: Don't know but sure would like to (OT) -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 15:14:38 (EST)
__ __ __ DV -:- Hi Cynthia- I printed your paychecks -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 22:49:23 (EST)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- GREAT STUFF! Wanted: Your Corporate Stories -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 15:40:13 (EST)
__ __ __ bill b -:- JW--DECA -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 13:10:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Bim Doubtfire -:- Re: JW--DECA -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 19:02:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: JW--DECA -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 19:11:26 (EST)
__ __ __ Former Decette -:- Re: Don't know but sure would like to -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 12:36:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ bb -:- Re: Don't know but sure would like to -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 13:13:35 (EST)
__ __ __ Gerry -:- More Deca, more Deca!!! -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 11:07:51 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia G. -:- Re: More Deca, more Deca!!! -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 13:39:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Miami Was A War Zone -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 17:30:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ lib -:- Re: More Deca, more Deca!!! -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 16:48:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia G. -:- Re: P.S. -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 14:14:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- DECA, DECAE, DECAE, DECAM, DECA -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 15:54:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Charlie -:- Re: DECA, DECAE, DECAE, DECAM, DECA -:- Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 11:26:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ thanks all -:- fascinating thread thanks all (nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 16:36:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Enough -:- Decamus..???..Decant -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 16:34:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Decae, Decarum, Decis, Decas, Decis -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 17:20:30 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Enough -:- Re: Decae, Decarum, Decis, Decas, Decis -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 19:53:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: Decae, Decarum, Decis, Decas, Decis -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 20:09:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Enough -:- Re: Decae, Decarum, Decis, Decas, Decis -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 20:28:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ from the Red Nighty.... -:- Bill's DECA Blues -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 13:35:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Bill's DECA Blues -:- Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 18:10:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia G. -:- Re: DECADENT -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 20:34:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- To Cynthia re Deca -:- Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 17:15:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia G. -:- Re: To JW re Deca -:- Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 19:13:29 (EST)

Sir Dave -:- Go to Hell - all of you! -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 12:22:03 (EST)

Bim Doubtfire -:- What are the fruits? -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 11:15:34 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Re: What are the fruits? -:- Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 19:59:26 (EST)
__ Katie -:- The fruits of the forum -:- Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 18:04:18 (EST)
__ Roger eDrek -:- This is probably Mr. Move On -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 04:13:35 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia G. -:- RE: I think this is Shp -:- Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 08:37:29 (EST)
__ __ Bim Doubtfire -:- Re: This is probably Mr. Move On -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 05:09:49 (EST)
__ chr -:- Re: What are the fruits? -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 03:34:38 (EST)
__ __ Bim Doubtfire -:- Re: What are the fruits? -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 04:25:52 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Lies, whitewash, superficial, transparently selective -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 01:51:57 (EST)
__ __ Bim Doubtfire -:- Re: Lies, whitewash, superficial, transparently selective -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 04:35:28 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- That's not the point (but then you're a cult member, right?) -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 11:36:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Bim Doubtfire -:- Re: That's not the point (but then you're a cult member, right?) -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 18:36:38 (EST)
__ Peter Howie -:- Re: What are the fruits? -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 19:15:06 (EST)
__ __ Bim Doubtfire -:- Re: What are the fruits? -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 04:41:20 (EST)
__ __ __ Peter Howie -:- Re: What are the fruits? -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 17:30:20 (EST)
__ Joey -:- The fruits are in speaking the truth and seeking justice -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 11:39:03 (EST)
__ __ Bim Doubfire -:- Re: The fruits are in speaking the truth and seeking justice -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 14:13:39 (EST)
__ __ __ Nick Danger, Third Eye -:- Re: The fruits are in speaking the truth and seeking justice -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 14:34:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Bim Doubtfire -:- Re: The fruits are in speaking the truth and seeking justice -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 17:35:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Nick Danger, Third Eye -:- Re: The fruits are in speaking the truth and seeking justice -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 18:59:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bim Doubtfire -:- Re: The fruits are in speaking the truth and seeking justice -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 04:58:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: The fruits are in speaking the truth and seeking justice -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 17:56:07 (EST)
__ __ __ Joey -:- To Bim -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 14:33:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Bim Doubtfire -:- Re: To Bim -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 17:47:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: To Bim -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 18:04:53 (EST)
__ __ Bim Doubfire -:- Re: The fruits are in speaking the truth and seeking justice -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 14:06:23 (EST)
__ __ Joey -:- This is the good one. Sheesh! -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 11:51:00 (EST)
__ __ __ Joey -:- Shit! this better be it! -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 11:52:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- A good thing I'm NOT a perfectionist:::)) (nt) -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 11:54:54 (EST)
__ __ Joey -:- Re: The fruits are in spea king the truth and seeking justice (html correct:) -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 11:48:07 (EST)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Bim's little twist... -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 21:45:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Bim Doubtfire -:- Re: Bim's little twist... -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 04:48:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Bim's Indian? -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 06:10:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bim Doubtfire -:- Re: Bim's Indian? -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 10:49:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Your previous incarnation I suppose -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 12:03:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: Bim's little twist... -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 23:08:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ biff -:- Re: Bim's little twist... -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 15:11:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Re: Bim's little twist... -:- Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 06:19:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Sheesh, Joey! -:- Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 13:23:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ biff -:- Re: Sheesh, Joey! -:- Sat, Nov 20, 1999 at 00:54:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Sheesh, biff! -:- Sat, Nov 20, 1999 at 01:59:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ biff -:- Re: Sheesh, biff! -:- Sat, Nov 20, 1999 at 10:59:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- It's a dirty job, Joey, but somebody's got to do it NT :)) -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 10:34:00 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- Shri Hans' to EB Russel Part 1 -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 10:35:28 (EST)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Shri Hans' to EB Russel Part 2 -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 10:36:45 (EST)
__ __ Happy -:- Re: to JM -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 10:55:31 (EST)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- You're not the only one! -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 11:05:16 (EST)

Cynthia G. -:- Potty Mouth and Toilet Humor -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 09:37:43 (EST)

who knows -:- a dying cult -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 09:34:35 (EST)
__ JHB -:- These are web page hits -:- Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 15:02:33 (EST)
__ Roger eDrek -:- what bullshit -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 04:11:38 (EST)
__ __ Just a guess -:- Re: what bullshit -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 11:42:45 (EST)
__ chr -:- Re: a dying cult -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 03:03:20 (EST)
__ Sir Dave -:- And here's some more statistics... -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 20:15:58 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- Sir Dave, my hero! -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 20:22:38 (EST)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Hey steady on girl -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 20:44:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Lord of the Underworld -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 20:53:00 (EST)
__ Joey -:- Re: a dying cult...you bet! -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 10:14:59 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- Misleading stats -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 15:26:29 (EST)
__ __ __ who knows -:- why? are you looking for some potential victims/clients? (nt) -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 16:15:12 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia G. -:- Re: Stats/Record Keeping/Misc. -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 16:14:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Hi Cynthia -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 19:44:33 (EST)

bb -:- Henley/Bronson -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 02:01:51 (EST)
__ Me to you -:- Re: Henley/Bronson -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 07:25:04 (EST)
__ __ bb -:- Re: Henley/Bronson -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 09:13:11 (EST)
__ __ Laurence Olivier -:- To: Meryl -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 08:55:48 (EST)
__ __ __ Rosalind Russell -:- Auntie Mame -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 09:21:07 (EST)

Totally Unknown -:- Midnight, Money & the Brogans -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 01:19:26 (EST)
__ Joey -:- Re: Midnight, Money & the Brogans -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 13:50:20 (EST)
__ bill -:- Re: Midnight, Money & the Brogans -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 02:27:24 (EST)
__ __ Totally Unknown -:- Re: Midnight, Money & the Brogans -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 02:39:34 (EST)
__ __ __ Joey -:- What a move!! -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 14:54:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ T.U. -:- Wait a minute, Joey -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 15:16:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: Wait a minute, T.U. -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 17:44:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ T.U. -:- Joey... -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 18:44:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- T.U., honey... -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 19:44:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ T.U. -:- Touche', Joey! LOL -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 19:51:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: Touche', T.U.! LOL -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 20:05:10 (EST)
__ __ __ bill -:- Midnight, Money & the Brogans -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 09:36:01 (EST)

octopus -:- Chains & hopes & names -:- Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 13:56:13 (EST)
__ Cynthia G. -:- Re: Chains & hopes & names -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 08:49:07 (EST)
__ Marianne -:- Break the chains! -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 02:01:11 (EST)
__ youngold -:- Re: Chains & hopes & names -:- Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 21:45:51 (EST)
__ __ Runamok -:- youngold -:- Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 23:37:28 (EST)
__ __ __ youngold -:- Re: youngold -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 16:17:36 (EST)
__ Runamok -:- Re: Chains & hopes & names -:- Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 18:25:37 (EST)
__ __ octopus -:- Re: Chains & hopes & names -:- Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 10:41:35 (EST)


Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 00:19:11 (EST)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: All
Subject: mistress/affairs/finances
Message:
In the early eighties a premie from Wash. DC went down to Miami to do M's books. She was an accountant, not an ashramer, and was excited about doing 'direct service' for the guru, but also a bit wary. After a few weeks on the job,she notices some large sums of money that don't fit into any category-she can't figure out where to put them, because she doesn't know what they are all about. A number of premies give her vague answers abut it and tell her to call Michael Dettmers about it. She calls Dettmers and he tells her the truth-she totally freaked out and eventually left the position and miami. She said that she had to do everything in her power to not leave M at that moment.
She wouldn't tell anyone what it was, probably because she was told not to.
Anyway, I have always wondered what it could have been. I wonder if it was related to his long standing mistress, or maybe even another child he might be supporting. I don't know-does anyone else have any info on this?
Also, how well documented are his affairs and his long standing affair with Monica? Anyone have anything to add?
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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 04:05:27 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Just a guess in general
Message:
Just guessing here. It was either some kind of strange kinky mistress thing or something on the illegal side. If it was illegal the 'accountant', most likely a CPA could have gotten into a lot of trouble. Accountants, the legal biding ones, try to avoid those kinds of things.

Either way you cut it, Maharaji is a sleaze bag fraud. And it ain't no Lila.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 00:29:35 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Don't know but sure would like to
Message:
Nice to hear from you, LAX,

Wish I could offer some answers but I can't. Just thought I'd say hi anyway.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 09:14:22 (EST)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: All
Subject: Re: Don't know but sure would like to
Message:
Good Morning From the Land of Huge Amounts of Snow--18' so far,

I am very interested in the Miami/Deca era because I was down there from 1979-80. I've gone through some of the archives but there are so many conversations, I still haven't found anything.

The point of my post is that I am kind of bursting with information and don't know if this is new or old info. Because I was in the little Hialeah warehouse, I was privy to a lot of stuff that went on. I know that money was played around with. (What better place to launder cash than Miami in the late 70s-early 80s?) I clearly remember a company named Quantum Leasing being formed or emerging as the entity which would purchase the 707. Deca didn't own the plane. Quantum Leasing took delivery of the aircraft and just prior to that time, a lot of fundraising in the communities world-wide was going on--but especially in the US. Quantum Leasing purchased the 707 to lease to Deca, which was the contractor for the 'Client' to reconfigure the plane. I don't know how the 'client' was named in Decca documents, or if there ever were any connections made to m. I highly doubt it. His protection was of the utmost importance. To the best of my knowledge this is how it went down. It was a tiny office--difficult to hide conversations. However, no one who wasn't supposed to, ever looked inside of the accountant's office (not the woman LA-EX mentioned). I did a little research at the FL secretary of state's office this week (via internet) and found Quantum Leasing, among a number of other companies which seem to be related. Most weredissolved as corporations by the state due to lack of filing an annual report. Looking at these status reports, (there are a lot of companies called Quantum...) I also found a lot of name changes with the same Registered Agent or list of directors--many addresses in Miami Beach and surrounding towns-but I didn't recognize any of the people's names. I wasn't involved in setting up any corporations--that was probably done by legal. BTW there was even a 'Quantum Yachts' which caught my eye, but I digress.

During the time of the acquisition the pace of activity peaked. In the warehouse, everyone was rushing to complete prototypes of stuff m requested. GMJ came back from the UK a couple of weeks before Guru Puja (that's the mid-summer one, right?) and came to the little warehouse to pep everybody up--and often. He gave satsang there, because the 100,000 sq.ft. complex had been leased and we were about to move operations. Bigger space....closer to the hangar. Everything was extremely secret, especially around the hangar because everything that was done on the aircraft (rivet to rivet) has to be documented and signed off by an FAA person.

Also during that time, (while we were still at the little place), an ashram premie who happened to work at Boeing was hurriedly smuggling B707 documents out of the Boeing facility. Mountains of photocopied documents arrived. Some were shipped as packages on commercial passenger flights. Some were hand deliverd. Some mailed. Everything from engineering specs to overhaul and repair specs. Why purchase them when they can be stolen? I can't imagine what laws were broken in that 'direct service.' Theft of proprietory documents? Often concern was expressed by folks about this premie being caught. That premie eventually came down to Miami and was put into the Initiator's program. Don't know if she made it to full initiator or not.

Once we moved to the complex, I was in the design room so I no longer answered the phones, so didn't speak to m anymore, but saw him every day up close and personal. Why did premies do these things? What was I thinking at the time?

I felt like I was the luckiest person alive. I was in darshan bliss. The overall attitude was m is lord--how can he break laws. We're protected. I can't imagine anyone at the time breaking out and becoming a whistle blower. The atmosphere there was GMJ, GMJ, GMJ. There also was an underlying fear of m because of the belief systems I had about his power. How could I have ever broken away, if he knew my every thought and movement?

So, LA-EX, I love your stories. I would imagine that the woman who was working as an accountant probably was concerned about her professional career--and good for her. CPA or not, my speculation is she was asked to do some illegal financial dealings and had some integrity.

My memory is very vague on a lot of things, but the above is very clear to me, and more memories of things that happened seem to be coming up. I don't want to bring the Deca issue up if it's everyone's already discussed it. Some premies were completely oblivious to any corporate or financial dealings, because they were doing hard work under extreme pressure. I wonder where all the premies I worked so closely with in that little Hialeah warehouse are now.

Love, Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 15:14:38 (EST)
From: sifting4u
Email: None
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: Re: Don't know but sure would like to (OT)
Message:
hI cYnthia,

Any of the following names looke familiar to you or anyone?

QUANTUM CAPITAL CORPORATION

QUANTUM LEASING CORPORATION

C-S Aviation Services, Inc

Quantum Fund, N.V.

Name: QUANTUM GROUP, INC.

Type: Corporation File Number: 4720-1988 State: NEVADA Incorporated On: June 13, 1988

Status: Current list of officers on file Corp Type: Regular

Resident Agent: CORPORATION TRUST COMPANY OF NEVADA (Accepted)

Address: 6100 NEIL ROAD #500

RENO NV 89511

President: EHRENFRIED LIEBICH

Address: 14471 MYFORD RD BLDG B

TUSTIN CA 92780

Secretary: KEITH J FRYER

Address: 14471 MYFORD RD BLDG B

TUSTIN CA 92780

Treasurer: JOHN F POPE

Address: 14471 MYFORD RD BLDG B

TUSTIN CA 92780

QUANTUM INDUSTRIES, INC.

Type: Corporation File Number: 9947-1987 State: CALIFORNIA Incorporated On: December 31, 1987

Status: Current list of officers on file Corp Type: Regular

Resident Agent: CORPORATION TRUST COMPANY OF NEVADA (Accepted)

Address: 6100 NEIL ROAD #500

RENO NV 89511

President: GARY L. FRANKLIN

Address: 3360-A COFFEY LANE

SANTA ROSA CA 95403

Secretary: DANIEL G. KING

Address: 3360-A COFFEY LANE

SANTA ROSA CA 95403

Treasurer: DANIEL G. KING

Address: 3360-A COFFEY LANE

SANTA ROSA CA 95403

: QUANTUM INTERNATIONAL, LTD.

Type: Corporation File Number: 2625-1990 State: NEVADA Incorporated On: March 23, 1990

Status: Current list of officers on file Corp Type: Regular

Resident Agent: PACIFIC FIDELITY INC. (Accepted)

Address: 6130 WEST FLAMINGO

SUITE 135

LAS VEGAS NV 89103

President: ROBERT F. FOGLE

Address: 32548 GREENWOOD LOOP

ZEPHYR HILLS FL 33544

Secretary: ROBERT F. FOGLE

Address: 32548 GREENWOOD LOOP

ZEPHYR HILLS FL 33544

Treasurer: ROBERT F. FOGLE

Address: 32548 GREENWOOD LOOP

ZEPHYR HILLS FL 33544

QUANTUM LEASING, INC.

Type: Corporation File Number: 22458-1998 State: NEVADA Incorporated On: September 23, 1998

Status: Revoked Corp Type: Regular

Resident Agent: CASTLEROCK INVESTMENT INTERNATIONAL (Accepted)

Address: 6370 W. FLAMINGO ROAD

SUITE #5

LAS VEGAS NV 89103

QUANTUM MODIFIED ASPHALT XCETERA, INC.

Type: Corporation File Number: 11358-1999 State: NEVADA Incorporated On: May 11, 1999

Status: Initial list of officers filed Corp Type: Regular

Resident Agent: NEVADA AGENCY & TRUST COMPANY (Accepted)

Address: 50 W LIBERTY ST

SUITE 880

RENO NV 89501

President: EHRENFRIE LIEBICH

Address: 1947 PURCELL WAY #77

N. VANCOUVER BC CN V7J3H

Secretary: KEITH J. FRYER

Address: 14771 MYFORD ROAD BLDG B

TUSTIN CA 92780

: QUANTUM SYMMETRY, INC.

Type: Corporation File Number: 7847-1994 State: NEVADA Incorporated On: May 24, 1994

Status: Current list of officers on file Corp Type: Regular

Resident Agent: ROBERT A. ETTER (Accepted)

Address: 2961 INDUSTRIAL RD.

LAS VEGAS NV 89109

President: MICHAEL A CARR

Address: 3639 E 2ND ST, #207

LONG BEACH CA 90803

Secretary: MICHAEL A CARR

Address: 3639 E 2ND ST, #207

LONG BEACH CA 90803

Treasurer: MICHAEL A CARR

Address: 3639 E 2ND ST, #207

LONG BEACH CA 90803

QUANTUM SYSTEMS INTEGRATORS, INC.

Type: Corporation File Number: 1586-1994 State: NEVADA Incorporated On: February 01, 1994

Status: Current list of officers on file Corp Type: Regular

Resident Agent: CORPORATE SERVICE CENTER, INC. (Accepted)

Address: 1475 TERMINAL WAY

SUITE E

RENO NV 89502

President: JON ASHLEY STRABALA

Address: 1705 MINORCA PLACE

COSTA MESA CA 92626

Secretary: VIVIAN MARIE STRABALA

Address: 1705 MINORCA PLACE

COSTA MESA CA 92626

Treasurer: JON ASHLEY STRABALA

Address: 1705 MINORCA PL.

COSTA MESA CA 92626

QUANTUM TECHNOLOGY, CORPORATION

Type: Corporation File Number: 14477-1997 State: NEVADA Incorporated On: July 07, 1997

Status: Current list of officers on file Corp Type: Regular

Resident Agent: PACIFIC CORPORATE SERVICES INC. (Accepted)

Address: 7631 BERMUDA ROAD

LAS VEGAS NV 89123

President: DONALD A BECK

Address: 6462 SURFSIDE WY

MALIBU CA 90265

Secretary: RABSY CRUZ

Address: 3508 E BARON CT

ORANGE CA 92869

Treasurer: RABSY CRUZ

Address: 3508 E BARON CT

ORANGE CA 92869

QUANTUM TRADING COMPANY

Type: Corporation File Number: 2258-1992 State: NEVADA Incorporated On: March 09, 1992

Status: Current list of officers on file Corp Type: Regular

Resident Agent: CORPORATION TRUST COMPANY OF NEVADA (Accepted)

Address: 6100 NEIL ROAD #500

RENO NV 89511

President: THOMAS A. HOWELL

Address: 8080 N. CENTRAL EXPRESSWAY

SUITE 780

DALLAS TX 75206

Secretary: WILLIAM D. PATTERSON, JR.

Address: 8080 N. CENTRAL EXPRESSWAY

SUITE 780

DALLAS TX 75206

Treasurer: WILLIAM D. PATTERSON, JR.

Address: 8080 N. CENTRAL EXPRESSWAY

SUITE 780

DALLAS TX 75206

QUANTUM VISION, INC.

Type: Corporation File Number: 10622-1998 State: NEVADA Incorporated On: May 07, 1998

Status: Current list of officers on file Corp Type: Regular

Resident Agent: NATIONAL REGISTERED AGENTS OF NV (Accepted)

Address: 202 S. MINNESOTA

CARSON CITY NV 89703

President: TIM LIN

Address: 1860 ASTOR DRIVE

SAN LEANDRO CA 94577

Secretary: RANCE MASHECK

Address: 3528 SPARROW LANE

MELBOURNE FL 32935

Treasurer: RANCE MASHECK

Address: 3528 SPARROW LANE

MELBOURNE FL 32935

: QUANTUMNET, INC.

Type: Corporation File Number: 13117-1992 State: NEVADA Incorporated On: December 02, 1992

Status: Current list of officers on file Corp Type: Regular

Resident Agent: JAMES, DRIGGS & WALCH (Accepted)

Address: 3773 HOWARD HUGHES PARKWAY

SUITE 290N

LAS VEGAS NV 89109

President: ALAN L POCRASS

Address: 41 GOLDEN GLEN DRIVE

SIMI VALLEY CA 93065

Secretary: DOLORES T. POCRASS

Address: 41 GOLDEN GLEN DRIVE

SIMI VALLEY CA 93065

Treasurer: ALAN L. POCRASS

Address: 41 GOLDEN GLEN DRIVE

SIMI VALLEY CA 93065

MELANIE PENNELL

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 22:49:23 (EST)
From: DV
Email: None
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: Hi Cynthia- I printed your paychecks
Message:
at Deca. Tell me,(if you were on the payroll)did they always clear? I used to run mine off first so I could get to the bank first:).
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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 15:40:13 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: GREAT STUFF! Wanted: Your Corporate Stories
Message:
Cynthia,

Great stuff! No, I don't think anyone tires of such stories. Besides, each story adds more needed details as to the tyranny of the Lord's rule as he brought peace to the planet.

I also worked at a premie business for nothing and ended up pretty burned out. It does make me angry that I wasted so much time, effort, and some of the most productive years of my life to help enrich Maharaji and a few others. No or low pay, no insurance, no benefits, no nothing.

Here's a link at the House of Maharaji Drek on Michael Dettmers and his Dettmers Inc. which was most likely an offshoot of the DECA airplane effort. He and his brother profited much from your efforts.

I also have a lot corporate information on disk that was gathered earlier this year. I need to get back to work on completing the
Maharaji's Corporate Shenanigans
where I do have something on Quantum Inc.

Message to Cynthia and anyone else associated with DECA or any other Maharaji business:

What might be really valuable for the Corporate Shenanigans page would be a complete as you can journey related to that operation.

You can post it and maybe email it to me at drek@oz.net

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 13:10:17 (EST)
From: bill b
Email: None
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: JW--DECA
Message:
Hi Cynthia,
We are happy to reindulge in the DECA era discussion.
NO problem going over it because always new things
come out.
I was at the complex and hanger during the 707 also.
I attended the event in the complex just before it
opened. I remember him stateing at that event that
just to have m talk to you once is ......, and just to
be able to see him is....., and if he ever were
to talk to you...., we have to get the tape.
How he stated his untouchable ultimateness needs to be
on one of DREK's audio sound bites.
I will and others will definately engage with you a
discussion of that era.
I have a medical visit to make so I may not get back to
you till tomorrow night.
Glad you are well, AND in such a great location.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 19:02:26 (EST)
From: Bim Doubtfire
Email: bim_doubtfire_hotmail.com
To: bill b
Subject: Re: JW--DECA
Message:
Dear Bill b
To me it is sad to read these things, may be for other reasons than you think. I understand that a lot of people at these pages were involved in this.

In my country we have saying (translated): If you dig in shit, the only thing you will get is shit on your hands'

By the way is not this case too old (outdated by law)?

Those things you mention, I never heard Maharaji speak such things, but I heard it from a lot of premies and mahatmas.

Best regard

Bim

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 19:11:26 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Bim Doubtfire
Subject: Re: JW--DECA
Message:
If you are like 99% of all premies, you have spent almost zero time around Maharaji, except when he is sitting up on thrones at very controlled programs, or through watching very controlled and highly edited videos. What do you really know about the guy? I think you ought to read further, Bim. It's a reall eye-opener to find out what your 'master' is REALLY like, not just the image of him that is presented to you by him and his cult.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 12:36:44 (EST)
From: Former Decette
Email: None
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: Re: Don't know but sure would like to
Message:
I recall DECA. In fact, I was one of the 'Decettes,' this group of premie women who got up in front of Guru Maharaji and did a sexist and demeaning dance routine at his birthday party in Miami. It is humiliating to even think about it. What was I thinking? I wasn't thinking, that was the problem. We weren't supposed to think.

One of the things I recall from DECA is how human beings burned themselves out, worked in dangerous conditions, and damaged their health, their families and their futures and nobody, including Guru Maharaj Ji -- especially Guru Maharaj Ji, gave a shit. As long as you were serving the Lord of the Universe, you would be taken care of. Wrong.

I know there were all kinds of illegal and secretive financial shennanigans that went on in DLM and around the 707. But to me, those pale when compared to the damaged health and well-being of those who slaved away to give GMJ what he wanted. Those people were completely expendable as far as GMJ was concerned.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 13:13:35 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Former Decette
Subject: Re: Don't know but sure would like to
Message:
I remember quite clearly your dance!
There were a number of upholstry shop ladies and others
who danced with kick rocketette style danceing (and very
well I might add). You danced to the song 'wishing and
hopeing' I think. Yup that was the song.
More on that tomorrow night,.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 11:07:51 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: More Deca, more Deca!!!
Message:
Cynthia,

Yes, by all means, please flesh out this area. I am personally fascinated by this subject. It is, IMO, one of the most bizarre and 'heavy' times of the whole trip.

I think we need to document this period and give it its own space on one of the websites.

You've made a great start. Thanks.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 13:39:17 (EST)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: Gerry
Subject: Re: More Deca, more Deca!!!
Message:
Hi Gerry,

First, to Former Decette, I was also one of the burnouts. I felt thrown away when I couldn't go on. At that point, the plane was nearly finished and I did get a tour of it. Big deal. It wasn't good enough for him.

As I remember it, I had just moved into the ashram and was there for a couple of months. Remember those forms that every premie completed? It was for a special project and they were used to determine who was best suited for what job. That I got a call to come to Miami blissed many out in the Hartford community--I was soooo lucky. Little did I know...... Yet in the process, I again gave up most of my few remaining possessions (gave them away) because Deca was in such a hurry for me to get down there. I lost a binder of poetry that I had written since age 14 that I THREW away. It was lovely poetry and a big loss to me now. Whatever..

I can't imagine the cost of running that operation. At the complex, m had One Foundation, all of his cars were shipped to Miami from Malibu (no one was allowed in the big garage except those invited or who worked there), I believe he held initiator programs in that satsang hall, which was beautifully carpeted with a pedestal for his royal ass, and various other projects were there. It was like he wanted to get a lot of stuff done for free labor, and how convenient to have it all in one big place.

The thing I remember the most, of course, is my contact with m. He came into the design room very often, his suite of offices, which I took care of, the children's playroom and the design office were close together physically. He'd come into the office and everyone would stand up, whether you he was working with you or not. That was the protocol. He was very fussy about everything, always changing things, asking the impossible. But, hey, he was the lord to us, and anything he wanted he got.

There was a 'spiritual ego' going on in many of us from time to time, expecially those of us who got to see him a lot. We got to sit up front at the programs, too. It kind of makes one feel quite special, but we worked up until about an hour before each program. Of course, it isn't acceptable to be in one's 'ego' so humility would take over and I'd realize it was a privilege to be there--UGH!

I plan to do further research into these corporations. It's amazingly simple to set up a corporation in any state and the records are public.

BTW, one thing that happened to me has never left my memory. One night I had to go back to the Broadripple to get a change of clothes or something. I usually had a car because Swan and I also worked on his krishna pants and malas before programs and kept odd hours and needed to get around Miami a lot. It was about ten at night and I was at the exit ramp off the highway to get to the complex, I stopped behind a car at a red light. This was early 1980, and Pres. Carter had accepted the Cuban refugees, and race riots were going on in Miami.

I was sitting at the red light and some creepy guy with a towel over his head and a big iron pipe in his hand tried to force me out of the car. In a split second, I pulled my driver door closed and when he went for the back door, fortunately it was locked. I slammed it into reverse, squealed out of there and just knew I would have been killed by that guy. Don't know to this day if I ran him down I was so scared. When I got to the complex, I immediately went to the security guy and told him what happened to me. He just shrugged, like nothing happened. Looking back at it now, what did I think they were going to do? Call the cops? Have the whole operation exposed? I think not. But I felt very strange that no one, not even the premies, reacted to the fact that I had almost been assaulted, possibly raped and killed.

When I got shipped up to the Gainesville ashram I was into real darshan withdrawal, very depressed, exhausted, burned out. It really happens when one is in that true believer state. I often called Swan to find out what was going on, what m was up to, etc., and since I was out of 'it', meaning, out of the circle, she never told me anything about what was going on except she did tell me that Claudia had been attacked and beaten up while driving in Miami somewhere. I was told that m was extremely upset with the fact that she was with her driver and wasn't protected. Hmmmm....it was 1980....was that the time that all the affairs were going on? I wonder who really beat Claudia up. Apparently, it was quite bad for her. I wonder if they called the cops for that one.

Anyway, if anyone has any info regarding anything related to Deca, I'm interested. It was a very very strange time and I also wonder what went on in the communities once so many premies migrated to Miami for the 'project.' What did the premies feel that were left in the communities who were footing the bill? Did many of the premies come back to their community cities after the project? There are a lot of unanswered questions and the money is the very big factor that pisses me off. I worked for free. He got richer and richer. More and more demanding.

If anyone want to email me with info that's fine, too. I think that project was the beginning of the end for m in this country. That's my speculation, any other opinions?

Love, Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 17:30:24 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: Miami Was A War Zone
Message:
It was a really bad time to live in Miami. It had the highest murder rate in the country at that time, and was kind of ground zero in the drug trade -- mostly cocaine from South America.

Right. There was the Mariel boat lift in 1980, in which Castro expelled thousands of people from his prisons and mental institutions and the Cuban groups in Miami boated out and picked them all up. Weird.

Then, as a result of a big police brutality case (kind of like Rodney King but without the videotape), in which some Miami police killed an African American insurance executive who was stopped for a traffic violation, and then the officers were acquitted in a trial up in Tampa. In one of the stupidest moves in history, the Miami police department immediately REHIRED the officers, and Miami exploded in riots. Whole areas of the city burned down. That was in May, 1980. It was SO bad, we had to close the Miami satsang hall, which was near Liberty City, an area of the city that was burned down in the riots.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 16:48:24 (EST)
From: lib
Email: None
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: Re: More Deca, more Deca!!!
Message:
It was actually NOT Claudia, it was in Coral Gables and it was some wispy sister who was
taking care of.......must have been Navi right? Or maybe it was the next child of Claudia's.
Yes he was pissed all right.
What did you hear or see of his anger?
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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 14:14:04 (EST)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: All
Subject: Re: P.S.
Message:
I just read 'Bill's Deca Blues' and remember how hard everyone worked, especially out in the warehouse. Being in the design room I saw renderings, engineering drawings, etc. I was often in the warehouse area because I did a lot of running around for the honchos and designers. I remember all those places, though, the seamstress area, the metal plating, the laminating, etc. How about the special furniture being designed for his home? Just on a whim. on a whim. He was like a workaholic who didn't do any work!!

It never occurred to me at the time (DUH) that this was a very hazardous situation for these guys. The fact that it was a totally illegal operation, vis a vis, no workers comp., not OSHA inspections, no one to officially answer to except m, the plane project folks, Guy Rollins, the architect, who never designed anything besides houses prior to the project. Craziness.

M used to ridicule Jim Hession, as I've said before. He also busted Guy's ass a lot about not being a real architect because the only thing he ever designed before were houses. They both just would get red in the face and say nothing. Jim, as I remember it, was also publicly ridiculed in m's program satsangs. M seems to get his rocks off making fun of people.

And those paintings that Swan did. Those were of the utmost importance to m. He would come in every day to her cubicle to see how her work was coming along. (She was the only one who had a cubicle for privacy because she was doing that kind of work) .

The realization that we were truly disposable to m is so sickening to me. So many people were very sincere. We would have done anything for him. It's just pathetic that someone who calls themself LOL would treat any living thing that way, especially people devoted to him.

I didn't get overwhelmed by toxic chemicals, but I did get overwhelmed by the impossible amount of work m asked of us. He'd be in a huge rush to get something re-designed, then he's walk over to another draftsman and ask how the design of his new dock was coming (for his boats). Sheesh!

Fuck him. I am angry. How could anyone have the balls to pull something like that off. It was about the time the construction company was getting started that I was taken out. I do remember that things were really fucked up about that.

I do know of one engineer from Hartford who declined to move his family down to Deca. This was before I got called. He had a great job at Pratt & Whitney and chose not to upset his career and family. Good call on his part. Everyone else thought he was nuts not to go.

This is healthy, you know? I need to talk about this stuff because I lost a lot of my life and opportunities in this world because of m. I don't remember ever hearing any gratitude from m to his premies for anything. If he is so humble, one would think.....oh forget it...he's just a big fat liar and a fraud.

Keep those stories coming.

Love, Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 15:54:36 (EST)
From: JW
Email: Joger02@aol.com
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: DECA, DECAE, DECAE, DECAM, DECA
Message:
Hi Cynthia:

I was called to Deca from Chicago in 1979. [It was somewhat indirect, but I was there in May, 1979 and again by about September, 1979.] I had worked as a paralegal in Chicago while living in the ashram there. As you mentioned, there was such a shortage of premies with any skills whatsoever, that they put me in the legal department at Deca, even though I wasn't a lawyer. I also reviewed those 'forms' you mentioned that a lot of premies filled out, both to try to find people with skills and also to identify people with good jobs who might be hit up for money.

I worked on trying to get all the licenses, etc., for Deca, which had none. All of them, county, city, state and federal, would have required inspections, meeting OSHA regulations etc., and we were loathe to allow inspections for obvious reasons, and the rest would have cost MONEY and of course every cent went to Maharaji and the various expensive toys he wanted. So, of course, we didn't get them. We also didn't get workers compensation insurance, nor any other kind of insurance while I was there. And, of course, the ashram premies were not paid and had no benefits. Those who were not ashram premies were encouraged, pressured really, to move into the ashram, including getting divorced if that is what it took. Slave labor what so much cheaper than those who required some kind of wages.

I also did research into the various licenses, including at the law library at the University of Miami, that the plane would need, and setting up the shell corporations, like Quantum, that owned and leased the plane. I recall working with Linda Gross who was then an attorney in 'the Office of Guru Maharaj Ji' in setting up these shell corporations to give the illusion that there was some arms-length transaction going on. It is interesting that here was a lawyer in 'the Office of Guru Maharaj Ji' working on setting up corporations which were supposed to be legally distinct from Maharaji. What a joke. I remember Linda as a very nice person. And I know she went through a lot later on in trying to be a dedicated premie.

At Deca, I was always pointing out all the illegalities at Deca to the powers that be and then one day Jim Hession fired me, not that I had an actual, "job", but I was basically kicked out of Deca for not being devoted enough. It was clear I was suppposed to just keep my mouth shut. He said I would be better off 'in a community' and implied that I didn't 'trust grace' and 'didn't know how to serve Maharaji,' which of course, he thought he did. Then they made me community coordinator in Miami. I always thought Hession was well-intentioned but essentially unbalanced. He was fanatic in his dedication to Maharaji, but he also was very interested in building the Deca empire. The organizational charts at Deca, which he poured over, seemed to fill him with orgasmic delight. I'd be interested in whatever criticisms Maharaji had of him. It's amazing he would have any, since Jim gave Maharaji about everything he had.

The plane project was always running out of money, mostly due to really bad planning, atrocious and stupid planning really, and because Maharaji always wanted MORE, and micromanaged the project and kept changing things, and wanting them even more lavish, and he had no sense whatsoever about what things cost, nor what work invovled, and how longs things take to do. He had never worked for anything in his life, so I guess that was to be expected.

We were always trying to get more money for the project. At first Maharaji lied to the premies and said he was raising money for a 'world tour' because he wanted to keep the plane, and the nefarious way it was being financed and built, a secret from outside scrutiny. Then, when the financial shit hit the fan, the premies were finally told about the plane, and coordinators like me implored the premies for CASH donations. We were direcgted to tell people to take out cash advances on their credit cards, to sell things, etc. We did big fundraisers like selling beer at rock concerts and Miami Dolphins games. All the money went to the plane project. Maharaji even offered, but I don't think he ever did it, to donate money from the next darshan line to the plane. He usually raised about a quarter million dollars in a darshan line at a big program in Miami. There were also lots of programs in Miami during this period because they made lots of money for Maharaji and the plane. If you recall, the entrance fees went up to something like $75.00 per person during this period and this was the late 70s. The programs were all in Miami because he didn't have to get the Miami slaves anywhere away from Miami attend it. That would have cost money on something that wasn't directly benefiting HIM.

We had serveral emergency fundraisers, when the communities were asked to raise CASH, and premies flew out from Miami all over the country and came back to Miami with briefcases filled with cash. I remember one in 1980 and I helped to count hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash in the Alton Road offices in Miami Beach at that time. The money had to be deposited in amounts less than $10,000 to avoid Treasury regulations that would require reporting above that amount (money laundering laws mostly directed at the drug trade). It was blatant tax fraud, because DLM, a non-profit was raising cash for Maharaji's personal plane.

The working environment wasn't very safe at Deca. I know one premie, Nancy McCoy, who was disabled for years because she inhaled all kinds of noxious chemicals when she worked on cleaning the instruments in the cockpit and doing metal plating of them. She had to go live with her parents in Northern California, and I doubt Mahararji ever even sent her a get well card. Bastard. Quite a number of DECA premies burned out. They just worked day and night, hardly slept and if they burned out, usually they felt they were failures, or just not dedicated enough. Maharaji would sometimes come to DECA and give satsang, but all he ever said was that you should be MORE DEVOTED, MORE SURRENDERED and GIVE MORE. I never heard him say he was appreciative in the least of anything the premies were doing or the sacrifices they did for him.

Most of the premies were very nice people. Very dedicated and sincere, although they were used and sometimes used up. If someone burned out, there was another premie in the provinces who would feel privileged to go to Miami and serve the Lord.

I got sent to San Francisco in October 1980. I recall going to Miami for the Lord's birthday party, which must have been December 1980, (I also recall the "Decettes" kick-dancing) and I and the other coordinators were given a tour of the plane. So, I saw the gold toilet and plumbing fixtures and all the rest.

I have lots more memories, but that will have to do for now.

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Date: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 11:26:32 (EST)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: DECA, DECAE, DECAE, DECAM, DECA
Message:
JW,

thanks for that account of goings on at DECA. I can hardly believe the audacity of the man. To come from India to make slaves of US Citizens and get away with it seems a bizarre concept. Is that a racist statement?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 16:36:59 (EST)
From: thanks all
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: fascinating thread thanks all (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 16:34:28 (EST)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Decamus..???..Decant
Message:
Hi JW,

This helps me understand why Randy Prouty spent so much time in D.C. then, trying to get people to join the ashram.
I knew a young single mother who almost gave up her little girl to join ashram.

A couple of years later, I found out Randy had gotten married.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 17:20:30 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Decae, Decarum, Decis, Decas, Decis
Message:
Enough,

My Catholic high school Latin isn't that great anymore but I think those are the plural forms. But I think you saw Deca as a verb and I saw it as a noun (a feminine noun at that). Oh, well.

Funny you should mention Randy in DC. I was in Miami until May, 1979, when I got sent to be coordinator in DC, and Randy Prouty was the 'resident initiator.' His major goal seemed to be to get every unattached premie in the tri-state area to move into the ashram. I recall sitting with Randy and going over the list of community premies finding our 'targets.' We had meetings, and Randy held one-on-one meetings with people. I know a number of people did move in and many of them ended up in Miami at the plane project.

That was the Summer in 1979. Then, in September, 1979, I got sent BACK to DECA. I actually cringed at the thought of going because I liked DC so much and hated Miami and the frenetic, throughly unhealthy, pace there so much. But the Lord called and I had no choice.

JW

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 19:53:58 (EST)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Decae, Decarum, Decis, Decas, Decis
Message:
Hi-

I realized after my reply that I was conjugating when I should have been declining. My Catholic H.S. required 2 years of Latin.

Do you remember a particular Sunday afternoon(summer '79) w/Randy at Norfolk Ave. He was so heavy about joining ashram that the others in my premie house were stunned when we got home. I thought he made sense and would have joined right then but by the next morning realized I couldn't except authority.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 20:09:33 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Re: Decae, Decarum, Decis, Decas, Decis
Message:
Yeah, I remember that Sunday, but since I was already in the ashram, I found it very validating, as I'm sure many others did. I think the ashramites loved that stuff because it reinforced their belief that they were doing the right thing and were just so 'lucky' by his grace. What a pile of crap. I think right after that there was a big program in Miami and Maharaji had one of those 'special' meetings with the ashram premies. I remember that some of the DC 'aspirant ashram premies' were allowed in. It was another 'carrot' to get people to join up.

You are really lucky you were able to think for yourself enough not to join the ashram. I wish I had done the same.

God, conjugating verbs and declining nouns. What was the point of that? Deca as a verb would be:

Deco (I Deca) Decamus (We Deca)
Decas (You Deca) Decatis (You (pl.) Deca)
Decat (He, She, or It Decas) Decant (They Deca)

Is that right?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 20:28:05 (EST)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Decae, Decarum, Decis, Decas, Decis
Message:
They all seem right to me with possible exception of 2nd person plural.

My first year Latin teacher, Brother Raymond knew to ditch his vow and get married. We thought his ass was going to hell for sure.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 13:35:39 (EST)
From: from the Red Nighty....
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Bill's DECA Blues
Message:
It had been hard to get the plane work going. There was never enough money, even though the community coordinators all over the country were constantly begging the premies for more. The heads of the project had no experience - they had run companies like Harmony Gardeners and Rainbow painters before being called to work on the plane project. Only a few people knew about planes, aviation, or anything to do with the project. The other people were premies who had volunteered to come to Miami and work on the project. A lot of them had families, who were being housed in crowded hotel rooms, but their desire and need to do service for Maharaji helped them to overlook the uncomfortable and unsafe conditions.

Hazardous chemicals flowed like water: toluene, naphtha, and methyl ethyl ketone. The guy in the plating shop worked with cyanide constantly. Many of the inexperienced premies were given rags and methyl ethyl ketone and told to wash aircraft parts. Respirator cartridges were hardly ever changed because of the lack of time and funding. Bill knew that this was dangerous, but he was working out of time, out of the world. Maharaji would surely take care of his premies.

At first, they had gotten a break at 10 PM. Bill told jokes and always started the other workers laughing hysterically. They were all delirious with lack of sleep and methyl ethyl ketone fumes. Then someone decided that the break was just getting in the way of service. After that they only stopped for meals. But Bill was determined to keep on with it. In Hindu stories, the guru is always portrayed as having the devotees make the ashram here, then as saying, 'tear it down and build it there. Then when they had done that, 'NO, I wanted it there instead.' and on and on till there was only one devotee left. That was the test of Maharaji's lila. To see who was the REAL devotee, who would achieve enlightenment.

At first, Bill had lived in a mansion in Coconut Grove with a lot of other premies, but the bus ride was too long, so he had rented a cottage across the street from what was soon to known as DECA aviation. Old man Phaffendorf had built these things in the thirties and Bill named the place Phaffendorf Estates. After a flood the water came up almost two feet and was lapping on the undersides of the floor, and he renamed the place Phaffendorf Lakes.

He remembered entering DECA from the west gate, and breezing past the security guard with a blissful smile. He would look towards the sewing area where Maria would be working when she wasn't wandering the place to see if HE was there. She and other sisters were making the seat covers and wall panels for the 707.

To the right as Bill entered was the paint shop and the toluene and naptha fumes wafted out into the hall like some high tech kali yuga incense. The crew sanding at the table would call out to Bill to join them. In the dusty haze they looked like galley slaves chained to their sanding oars. To the left was the offices of the budding Construction Resources of America with their staff of novice premies about to 'wing it' in the construction field. Grace and low cost labor were supposed to save the day when management made bidding errors.

Bill's destination would be the cavernous main shop floor, but there was one last set of hurdles before arriving. He had to pass the young guy who had those anguished eyes from working in the welding shop non-stop with no time off but for satsang and sleep. He disappeared one day and was replaced without a ripple as a reminder that 'although there is only one HIM, there are many of us'.

On the other side of the main shop floor was the plating shop, where cyanide baths steamed under the fluorescent lights and the wizard of the room had a ghostly pale complexion but was happy to talk. All of the plane's fixtures were to be gold plated and that included a replica of the entire interior of the plane set into a flat panel that had all the light and sound control options on it at the same location as the actual jet. The circular shower had gold fixtures, two toilets, two sinks and one bidet. HIS and hers.

Onward into the main shop floor where cabinets were being made and sheet metal was being worked and testing was going on, and many other crafts were being learned, mostly by ashram premies. Bill would stop and enter the cabinet shop where he worked, looking at the ebony trim that was waiting for glueing to the interior 707 moldings and wall trim and tables and the larger than king size master bed for the lord. The cabinet for the tv was remote control retractable and was also made of ebony wood. Cream fabric walls and cream carpet. Luxurious brown fabric on the plane's chairs and, of course, a drawing of shri hans and one drawing of the Buddhist god of mercy. Drawn by Swan, who was also in charge of making the pearl mala and the floral sandals that Maharaji wore occasionally.

Oh my god! He remembered the sound of the chains coming off the gate to the courtyard, the warning signal for all who could hear to discreetly look because HE was driving into the courtyard and straight into the huge garage 50 yards away.

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Date: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 18:10:37 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: from the Red Nighty....
Subject: Re: Bill's DECA Blues
Message:
To anyone who is wondering - Bill and I wrote 'Bill's DECA Blues'. (Bill wrote almost allof it and I was mostly the editor). I did have a very close friend who moved to Miami with her husband and children so her husband could work at DECA, and I got the material for the first paragraph from her.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 20:34:40 (EST)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: All
Subject: Re: DECADENT
Message:
Hi,

It's hard to believe we all got sucked into slave labor.! All orchestrated by whom? GURU MADMAN!

The push was on once we were ready to move to the complex. Everyone was frantic because m wanted to call a lot more premies down to miami and that place had to be renovated and fast. Facing the big garage where m kept his cars, the right side were where all the admin. offices were and the satsang hall. I remember the carpenters, electricians, a rug installer (whose knees were already shot) working day and night getting that ready while we were moving in. Everyone was always dog tired. I remember getting those awful styrofoam dinners. I was so sick of eating out of styrofoam.

So, JW, if you left in May of 79, that's about the time I got there. What did you do when you came back?

Things were always in a state of panic and mad dashes to get things done for m, I remember once I was driving on I-95 after a couple of all-nighters and getting stopped for a speeding ticket. It probably saved our lives, because I was asleep at the wheel.

Regarding the Claudia story, that was a second hand story so I don't have any knowledge of its accuracy. All I know is that miami was terribly dangerous and often Swan and I would go to very unsafe places to pick up flowers for m's office, or malas, or trinkets for his garlands or pants. Once the riots broke out, we were told to be careful. That's all.

What a scam! Families encouraged to break up to work for HIM? So much went on then. so much. Being down there in that warehouse all the time and back to the broadripple day after day really sheltered us from knowing what was going on in the communities. Although, at the time I thought I was serving the Lord, so anything that he or his agents did would have been fine with me. The life-sucker. (It helps if I call him names).

Thanks everyone for your responses, this is good. I need all the help I can get. And I think filling in the gaps of what happened is good.

Love, Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 17:15:20 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: To Cynthia re Deca
Message:
Cynthia:

Regarding the timing of my involvement with Deca.

Around April 1979, I went down to Miami from Chicago at the behest of Dennis Marciniak to head up a 'business development' section of DLM. That evolved very quickly into fundraising/skills identification for the plane project/DECA. My office was in the Broadripple and although I was officially part of DLM, I was actually working for Deca, as many of the DLM people were. [This is yet another facade of some kind of separation between Deca/the plane project and DLM.] I remember getting a tour of the 'old' warehouse by Michael Black. Jim Hession was always coming into my office screaming about the need for money for the plane.

Anyhow, partly due to DLM being so heavily in the red because of Maharaji's 'needs,' they reduced staff and sent me to be community coordinator in Washington DC, which I did for about 4 or 5 months, before getting called back to Miami, this time to be in the legal department at DECA. By that time, Deca was in the 'new' warehouse. I did that until towards the end of 1980, when Hession 'fired' me and then I was community coordinator in Miami, for the next year or so.

I remember when I first got to Deca, the phones didn't even work and it was utter chaos in that place. I remember walking through the warehouse and seeing the workers, it seemed mostly making furniture for Maharaji and Raja Ji, and I remember Maharaji had a couple of his Rolls Royces parked in there. I remember being there a couple of times when Maharaji paraded his short, fat body through the place, with the premies fawning all over him, although we were told to keep doing our 'jobs' when he was around.

So, I guess I must have been there during some of the same time periods you were.

JW

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Date: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 19:13:29 (EST)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: JW
Subject: Re: To JW re Deca
Message:
Hi JW,

I worked with Michael Black (Blackie) and Randy Berringer (Radha of the Krishna Lila Dancers). Once we moved to the complex, so many premies were brought down I lost track of who a lot of people were. I do remember your name though. Were you there for the deca satsang before the opening of the comlex?

I was always running aroung. From the design office, into the work area, to admin, off to do errands, I simply was always on the go.

So we probably were there at the same time, on opposite sides of the 'court.' Were you there when m had his practice Holi? I was out with Swan getting lost in the bowels of Miami looking for some kind of do-dads to put on m's krishna pants or mala or something and arrived just as it was ending. Swan didn't drive so I drove her around and didn't mind it a bit. She was full of darshan stories and I 'got to do' special service. LOL

WAS THAT A BLISS OUT OR WHAT????? Joking.

This is my fantasy: I'd love to have m examined by a psychiatrist or psychologist. Now that I can see him from a different perspective, I love to have a professional get at him. They'd probably come up with quite a few disorders.

Got to go, talk to you soon,

Love, Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 12:22:03 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: All
Subject: Go to Hell - all of you!
Message:

I mean it too. Just click here to go to Hell and see how things have changed there recently. Anyone is welcome there.

If you are not a premie you might also like to click here to go to the Only ex-premies forum which is not for premies. If any premies post there, their posts will be deleted, pronto! Sorry but life is tough, isn't it.

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 11:15:34 (EST)
From: Bim Doubtfire
Email: bim_doubtfire@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: What are the fruits?
Message:
Sometimes I wonder, what are the fruits?
I can only talk for myself. I became rich. I became poor. I became rich again. I found confidence in my self. I found a feeling of joy. I feel gratitude towards life. I have a beautiful wife and 2 nice kids. I found peace in my self. I feel the thirst to find the peace within me every day.

The only thing I can remember Maharaji promised me was: 'I cannot promise you anything else, I can promise you peace'
Preemies promised a lot of things....
I have lived in several communities, so probably I have heard some of you speak at satsangs. 99 % of those I talked to, expressed at some time gratitude that they had found peace. So were you desillusioned then, were you lying then, or are you lying now?
I dont get it! Why the hatred? Why brag about the freedom that you have found leaving Maharaji? Remember this: a free man has no hatred, why should he do anything except enjoying life?
People in these pages dig shit and spit it out... Why?
I just wonder..

Bim

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Date: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 19:59:26 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Bim Doubtfire
Subject: Re: What are the fruits?
Message:
The only thing I can remember Maharaji promised me was: 'I cannot promise you anything else, I can promise you peace'

Err.... weren't you listening? He said a lot of other things, many to do with how Guru Maharaji Ji was so powerful, and we were such specks of dust, that if Guru Maharaj Ji closed the door on us, it would not be a very good thing for us specks of dust. Now don't you remember him saying stuff like that? For me, those strong satsangs were the most memorable.

John with a better memory than Bim.

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Date: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 18:04:18 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Bim Doubtfire
Subject: The fruits of the forum
Message:
Dear Bim -
My partner and I run the ex-premie.org site, and I cannot tell you how many people have e-mailed us to thank us for maintaining the site, and how many people have expressed appreciation for this forum. I know it's probably difficult for you to understand how helpful both the forum and site have been for ex-premies, aspirants, and people whose family members are premies, but we've got the testimonials to prove it.

Before 'ex-premie.org' was on-line, there was really NO place for anyone to hear from former followers of Maharaji. If Maharaji is the person you say he is, then he should certainly be able certainly handle criticism and an objective look at his 'knowledge'.

The Forum, in particular, is the first place where ex-premies AND premies from all over have been able to come and talk about their feelings about Maharaji, their experiences with DLM/EV, and so forth. If it appears that some of these people are living in the past by talking about things that happened 10, 15, or 20 years ago, consider this: for many of us, the forum is the first opportunity we've had to be able to talk about our experiences with ANYONE. Meanwhile, we've been walking around with a lot of unresolved issues in our heads for all those years. When I found the forum, I personally felt like I'd gotten five years of my life back - the five years I'd spent as a premie. It was a great feeling.

I've read your opinions about anger in some of the posts below. I think that having a place to express anger at Maharaji is VERY freeing for some people, especially those who believed he was divine, or god, or whatever. For every action or feeling, there's an equal and opposite reaction, and I feel that it's important to people's healing that they be able to express anger, disgust, or whatever at Maharaji. I know that some of the things people say about Maharaji on the forum are very offensive to premies, but I firmly believe that it's part of the healing process.
I have seen a lot of ex-premies 'get on with their lives' after using the forum to talk about their experiences, express anger, and so forth. Being able to talk about these things, finally, has helped a lot of people get 'free' of the effects of their experiences with Maharaji. You talk about freedom like it should happen instantly - I think it's a process, and I believe that the people posting here are engaged in the process of freeing themselves from negative belief systems.

It's great that you feel that you have the option to follow Maharaji or not. I can tell you that I did NOT feel that way - I believed that Maharahi was the present day Perfect master. And that the Knowledge meditation was IT - the only road to salvation and so forth. So when I didn't experience much from the knowledge meditation (and I did try and meditate for two hours a day as M said to, plus attending satsang every night and doing 'service'), this caused me to have a lot of feelings of guilt, unworthiness, self-castigation, and so forth. Personally, I was afraid to stop practicing knowledge because Maharaji had said that having Knowledge and not practicing it was like having 3 tons of vegetables and not eating them. They would rot, horribly. I was terrified of going crazy if I didn't practice the knowledge meditation, or go to satsang, or do service.

About 'lying in satsang' (as you put it). I used to feel awful during satsang because I felt that everyone else was experiencing so much more than I was. I was very shy when I was younger, so I didn't give satsang much, but I really only had a few 'experiences' to talk about. My own experience was that I would get up there and talk about these 'experiences' in order to convince myself that I WAS actually experiencing something. I wish we all could have been more honest in satsang about our doubts, difficulties, and so forth. I am sure you know, however, that one just could NOT talk about those things in satsang. Of course we all focused on any positive thing we could lay our hands on - that's what we were SUPPOSED to say. And even those utterances apparently became too much for Maharaji to handle - because he doesn't want premies to give satsang anymore.

Anyway, I hope you can realize that many of the people who post here have been hurt deeply as a result of following Maharaji. And there needs to be a place for those people to express how they feel, and to talk to other people who feel the same way. You may call it 'digging shit and spitting it out' - I call it 'healing'.

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 04:13:35 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Bim Doubtfire
Subject: This is probably Mr. Move On
Message:
This sounds a little too familiar. About every 4 months or so Mr. Move On leaves a little message and suggests that we all just move on and forget Maharaji.
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Date: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 08:37:29 (EST)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: RE: I think this is Shp
Message:
This sounds like Shp to me. All the wavering between broken English and then being quite articulate. That's all I have to say about it.

Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 05:09:49 (EST)
From: Bim Doubtfire
Email: bim_doubtfire@hotmail.com
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: This is probably Mr. Move On
Message:
Dear Roger
You wrote: 'This sounds a little too familiar. About every 4 months or so Mr. Move On leaves a little message and suggests that we all just move on and forget Maharaji.'
Relax
I am not going to be in the Forum for very long.
What you do with your life, is actually none of my business. However I was curios and personally I think it is sad to see all the negativity. Some of you guys probably were or are my friends

Best regards
Bim

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 03:34:38 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Bim Doubtfire
Subject: Re: What are the fruits?
Message:
I don't know why I'm bothering to reply- I used to be in the same mindset as you and it really didn't matter what people said to me. Here goes anyway. It's only by taking a step away and looking back that I can ask myself, 'What in the world was I thinking and doing?' This realisation comes quickly from a perspective outside the group. From within the world of M , the view is different. That which appears true, wise or blissful is often just foolishness when put into its wider context. Sure I had some enjoyable experiences in meditation, but also I unknowingly sacrificed a huge slab of myself and my potential on the alter of devotion to M. I have found since that the experience of meditation has absolutely nothing to do with M. I also saw things when I was around him that disturbed me- over indulgence in alcohol, moodiness, a kind of adolescent enjoyment of dirty jokes, a seeming lack of awareness of the needs and pain of others and a lifestyle that was unbelievably self indulgent. In the end these things outweighed the nice experience, which ,as I said , I found I could have without following M anyway.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 04:25:52 (EST)
From: Bim Doubtfire
Email: bim-doubtfire@hotmail.com
To: chr
Subject: Re: What are the fruits?
Message:
Dear chr
There is an indian saing (I think) 'Dont jugde anyone unless you have walked in his shoes'

Sometimes I wonder, why dont we keep what is good, and leave the rest. It is only our life

Best egards

Bim

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 01:51:57 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bim Doubtfire
Subject: Lies, whitewash, superficial, transparently selective
Message:
Sometimes I wonder, what are the fruits?
I can only talk for myself. I became rich. I became poor. I became rich again. I found confidence in my self. I found a feeling of joy. I feel gratitude towards life. I have a beautiful wife and 2 nice kids. I found peace in my self. I feel the thirst to find the peace within me every day.

You have absolutely no sense, apparently, of where you get your ideas, how they're shaped or anything. You might as well be a little voice chip reading a verse from the premie song book. Your 'two nice kids' would be absolutely appalled to understand the true roots of your cult and the asshole who leads it. That's a fact. Bring them here and I'll prove it.

The only thing I can remember Maharaji promised me was: 'I cannot promise you anything else, I can promise you peace'
Preemies promised a lot of things....
I have lived in several communities, so probably I have heard some of you speak at satsangs. 99 % of those I talked to, expressed at some time gratitude that they had found peace. So were you desillusioned then, were you lying then, or are you lying now?

Well this is dumb, isn't it? Maharaji said a lot of things but all ypu can remember is his mind-numbing 'peace' rap. The fact is, along with this mumbo jumbo, Maharaji ranted on for years about the mind being a poisonous cloud choking the world and everyone in it. 'Peace', in the circumstances, was available only to those who surrendered their minds to him. Go fuck yourself, you stupid weenie!

I dont get it! Why the hatred? Why brag about the freedom that you have found leaving Maharaji? Remember this: a free man has no hatred, why should he do anything except enjoying life?

Where's that quote from? Brave New World? You're just another cult member. None of you guys can think straight. But, of course, you don't want to anyway so what's it matter, right?

People in these pages dig shit and spit it out... Why?
I just wonder..

You're in no position to wonder anything. Plug in a video and stick your thumb up your ass. That is one of the techniques these days, isn't it?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 04:35:28 (EST)
From: Bim Doubtfire
Email: bim_doubtfire@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Lies, whitewash, superficial, transparently selective
Message:
Dear Jim
If you knew what I been through, and how I came to Knowledge, you probably would have chosen other words.

May be it is time to go and unfuck onself?

By the way, my kids dont have Knowledge. My wife has, but dont practice. So what? They are dear to me whatever, and I think they are very fond of me.

I think it is OK to wonder. Even about Maharaji or about what fruits Knowlegde gave you while practicing

Best regards

Bim

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 11:36:55 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bim Doubtfire
Subject: That's not the point (but then you're a cult member, right?)
Message:
Bim,

Who cares what you went through in your life? Churches worldwide are full of people who 'found Jesus' in desparation. That don't mean shit when you're trying to figure out what's true and what's not. In fact, desparation, exhaustion or any other indication of road-weariness should make your judgment even more suspect, if you want to be honest about it. You know, like when you've been up all night and get angry about something and tell yourself you might be overreacting on account of fatigue? That kind of thing.

As for your family, you miss the point entirely. Your kids, I'd be willing to bet big money, would be extremely frustrated and embarrassed if they knew the real story about your cult, its origins and its greedy, manipulative leader. If they don't already feel that way, I'm pretty sure they just don't know the real story. As for your wife, well, I bet she absolutely LOVES the fact that you're still stuck on the Hamster. How about bringing her here and turning her on to all the nasty 'shit' we keep 'spitting up' or whatever you said? No doubt that will make her even more fond of you.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 18:36:38 (EST)
From: Bim Doubtfire
Email: bim_doubtfire@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: That's not the point (but then you're a cult member, right?)
Message:
Dear Jim
I am sorry to say, you missed the point. I am not thinking about some pathetic stuff, it was just a funny story about how I came to Knowledge, that people like you are now, tried to convince me about negative things about Knowlegde. At that time I had never heard about Knowlegde, and I just felt the guy who told me about all the negative stuff was unsincere and dishonest so I started to argue with him. And that actually turned me on, because then I really wanted to know what it all was about.

The other things I was thinking about, was that a couple of years ago, a lot of things happened in my life - actually it was like Mr Murphy all over me. Or it felt like I got Jobs book in my head. At that time, I had doubts, which I have had many times. So when you write stuff like that in these pages, I just see through it and hope I would never become like that.

Best regards

Bim

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 19:15:06 (EST)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Bim Doubtfire
Subject: Re: What are the fruits?
Message:
Dear Bim,

One of the fruits from MJ is this site. Another way to put it is that there are many ,many disillusioned people that are the fruits of his tree. There are also other people who feel grateful, proud, delighted with MJ - they also are his fruits. Are not both fruits of his tree. So in other words he is a mixed bag. You can't blame the fruit. Or to put it another way, it is a bit mean spirited to blame the fruit.

The anger, resentment etc expressed on this site may come from people who do not do certain things (surrender, practice, love enough, feel compassion enough, in their mind to much,etc - the various reasons why some people are unable to benefit from MJ from the premie point of view) but still this is a fruit of MJ's tree. MJ has created a movement, a following where many people are left behind, many people are forgotten, many people are ridiculed, many people are patronised, many people are seen as less than human because they 'didn't make the grade'. This is also the fruit of his tree. If certain people are unable, unwilling, uninterested to do certain things(surrentder etc - see above) then MJ has created something that promises big, but is unable to deliver to all people. He is only able to deliver to certain people.

The other thing Bim, is that there are many ways to see and experience the world. You may see MJ a particular way. but can you see that others see MJ in a different, and equally legitimate, manner from you.

Cheers for now

Peter Howie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 04:41:20 (EST)
From: Bim Doubtfire
Email: bim_doubtfire@hotmail.com
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Re: What are the fruits?
Message:
Dear Peter,

In my opinion there are some fruits coming from trying to pursue Knowledge. Thats what I wrote about for my experience. Nobody can deny me that.

I just wondered about the fruits of being 'Anti Maharaji'

Best regards

Bim

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 17:30:20 (EST)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Bim Doubtfire
Subject: Re: What are the fruits?
Message:
I'm not sure that you got my point Bim.

This anti-Maharaj Ji site is one of MJ's fruits. It is a direct result of what he is trying to do in the world. The anger and frustration that you see here and dislike so much is one of Maharaj Ji's fruits. I'm not saying there arne't others but I am saying this fruit needs to be taken into consideration as it shows that there are clearly many negative fruits from maharaj Ji's tree or vine

Cheers

Peter Howie

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 11:39:03 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Bim Doubtfire
Subject: The fruits are in speaking the truth and seeking justice
Message:
99 % of those I talked to, expressed at some time gratitude that they had found peace. So were you desillusioned then, were you lying then, or are you lying now?

We were in a cult then. We're out of the cult now. And we can see more clearly that the cult we were in was quite destructive.

Remember this: a free man has no hatred, why should he do anything except enjoying life?

You confuse peoples' legitimate anger with 'hatred'.
YOU should know that for some 'enjoying life' INCLUDES speaking the truth as we know it, and seeking justice for that which was done in the cult not only to us, but in ensuring that we help as many as possible avoid the same fate.

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 14:13:39 (EST)
From: Bim Doubfire
Email: bim_doubtfire@hotmail.com
To: Joey
Subject: Re: The fruits are in speaking the truth and seeking justice
Message:
Dear Joey,
4 times you replied my mail. Even if English is not my language, I think I understand. You wrote 'The fruits are in speaking the truth and seeking justice' Sinse fruits cannot be truth or seeking justice, I assume you mean, this gives you a good feeiling. Thats fair enough for me.
But remember truth is relative and justice and righousness is debateable.
In my memory 'anger' (justified or not)is one of the 7 sins, a feeling which is hard to associate with a free man.
In my country, it is a beutiful night
Best regards
Bim
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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 14:34:48 (EST)
From: Nick Danger, Third Eye
Email: None
To: Bim Doubfire
Subject: Re: The fruits are in speaking the truth and seeking justice
Message:
Dear Bim:

What exactly does or should a free man feel? I am not being facetious; I am truly curious. And why the emphasis on 'free' as the centerpiece and touchstone of your argument?

Thanks
ND, 3rd Eye

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 17:35:18 (EST)
From: Bim Doubtfire
Email: bim_doubtfire@hotmail.com
To: Nick Danger, Third Eye
Subject: Re: The fruits are in speaking the truth and seeking justice
Message:
Dear Nick
You asked: 'What exactly does or should a free man feel?'

Frankly I have no idea. But sometimes in my life I have felt freedom. In these cases I felt joy and felt I was not bound or restricted by anything. I suppose basically at those moments you have freed yourself from the socalled 7 capital sins. Did you see the movie 'seven'? I had to find these on the net to be sure: the 7 capital sins are: Pride, Anger, Gluttony, Inordanance, Covetousness, Sloth and Envy.

Why I wrote about 'Freedom'? I sincerely dont understand why some people seems to be stuck in their anger and it is my opinion that this fact do not enrichen their lives.

I do not mean to take pride, god knows I am not perfect, but in one way I am more free than many people at these pages: at least I still can leave Maharaji if I want to, and I can still sit down to try to find peace within myself by the means of Knowlegde if I want to. It does not sound like many people here leave that option in their lives.

Best regards
Bim

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 18:59:35 (EST)
From: Nick Danger, Third Eye
Email: None
To: Bim Doubtfire
Subject: Re: The fruits are in speaking the truth and seeking justice
Message:
Dear Bim:

Thanks for your response. I grew up Catholic (12 years of parochial school--my deformative years), but I have never heard of 'Inordanance.' They were called the seven deadly sins and, since lust is missing from your list, I assume inordanance is the current euphemism for lust. I love Catholic spin.

On the anger front: There've been recent psychological studies (can't cite them, it would take me forever to find them) which have shown that anger that is expressed tends to grow, not diminish. But that doesn't preclude the healthy expression of anger, and in my experience, sometimes it's very difficult to express anger in a healthy manner. The nature of anger (at least the anger I've experienced) can make one behave in an impulsive manner, rather than healthy. The trick is knowing when to let go, another not so easy task. Also, anger can provide, at times, the energy to change those things in your life which don't work anymore and, therfore, can be a positive force. It's each person's call to know when they must move on.

Thanks
ND, 3rd Eye

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 04:58:03 (EST)
From: Bim Doubtfire
Email: bim_doubtfire@hotmail.com
To: Nick Danger, Third Eye
Subject: Re: The fruits are in speaking the truth and seeking justice
Message:
Dear Nick
Thanks for your reply.

I agree a lot with you. Anger is healthy to some extent. But from my own experience, I know if I am angry for more than a week, it is rather harmful to me.

What concerns sins (deadly or not), my view is not from a religious standpoint. It is my opinion, when one allow the anger to remain in ones inner landscape, its only makes it worse for oneself. The bitter thing is that nobody else suffers.

Best regards

Bim

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 17:56:07 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Bim Doubtfire
Subject: Re: The fruits are in speaking the truth and seeking justice
Message:
I do not mean to take pride, god knows I am not perfect, but in one way I am more free than many people at these pages: at least I still can leave Maharaji if I want to, and I can still sit down to try to find peace within myself by the means of Knowlegde if I want to. It does not sound like many people here leave that option in their lives. (emphasis my own)

I'm free as well Bim. I can always go BACK to m if I want. And as far as finding peace, I'm no longer stuck in my cult like approach where its ONLY possible through my connection to m and k.

You however have referred to k with a capital K.
So as far as finding peace, YOU'RE the one who's now stuck with your cult like approach and limited by it.

Too bad!!

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 14:33:56 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Bim Doubfire
Subject: To Bim
Message:
4 times you replied my mail. Even if English is not my language, I think I understand

Sorry, I just couldn't get the html quite right. I WASN'T questioning your ability to understand. Your English is probably better than mine.

You wrote
The fruits are in speaking the truth and seeking justice' Sinse fruits cannot be truth or seeking justice, I assume you mean, this gives you a good feeiling. Thats fair enough for me.
But remember truth is relative and justice and righousness is debateable.

Well thats fair enough for me too.

In my memory 'anger' (justified or not)is one of the 7 sins, a feeling which is hard to associate with a free man.

Your 'memory' may be failing you. The anger of an idividual who has been IN FACT victimized is justified and legitimate. IMO, NOT to express such an anger would constitute a sin ( the meaning of sin being = to miss the mark)

Indulging oneself in ones anger is what constitutes a sin.
If you want, you can be the judge if the anger expressed on this page is 'legitimate and justified', or is it 'indulged' ?

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 17:47:07 (EST)
From: Bim Doubtfire
Email: bim_doubtfire@hotmail.com
To: Joey
Subject: Re: To Bim
Message:
Dear Joey
You wrote: 'Your 'memory' may be failing you. The anger of an idividual who has been IN FACT victimized is justified and legitimate. IMO, NOT to express such an anger would constitute a sin ( the meaning of sin being = to miss the mark)

Indulging oneself in ones anger is what constitutes a sin.
If you want, you can be the judge if the anger expressed on this page is 'legitimate and justified', or is it 'indulged' ? '

Actually, in philosophically and religious terms, Anger is one of the 7 capital sins.
Frankly to say it this way: If I had felt that a friend had betrayed me, and after years still felt anger or hate towards him, and tried my best to destroy for him, I think I would have gone to a shrink. I dont think it is good for anybody to feel constantly 'justified' anger, I think it is better to try to forgive, if you can. By devoting oneself to anger and revenge, I am afraid the anger will not leave you.

It is not my purpose to jugde, I am just trying to see the facts.

Best regards

Bim

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 18:04:53 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Bim Doubtfire
Subject: Re: To Bim
Message:
By devoting oneself to anger and revenge, I am afraid the anger will not leave you.

It is not my purpose to jugde, I am just trying to see the facts.

Well you may not be here to judge, but you certainly don't mind lecturing us on 'the seven deadly sins', don't you now?

As you've already noted, truth and justice may be relative and debatable terms, but these are what's important to me in my participating in this forum.

Revenge...I can seek elsewhere if I want.

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 14:06:23 (EST)
From: Bim Doubfire
Email: bim_doubtfire@hotmail.com
To: Joey
Subject: Re: The fruits are in speaking the truth and seeking justice
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 11:51:00 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Bim
Subject: This is the good one. Sheesh!
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 11:52:40 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Bim
Subject: Shit! this better be it!
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 11:54:54 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: A good thing I'm NOT a perfectionist:::)) (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 11:48:07 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Bim
Subject: Re: The fruits are in spea king the truth and seeking justice (html correct:)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 21:45:28 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Bim
Subject: Bim's little twist...
Message:
Maharajia apolgia #13:

"Everyone who criticizes M has something emotionally or psychologically wrong with them, they are simply angry, vindictive people"

His little twist is to through the "cardinal sin" of anger in the mix for a little extra guilt factor for catholic raised cult fodder. Cute. If he can get us to see we are sinning by being "angry" perhaps we can be convinced to give up its expression here on the forum... Clever, a nice touch.

Well listen Bimmy Boy, we are not going away. We'll be here as long as your master is peddling his bullshit to the susceptible and the unwary. Your little moralistic lecture won't stop that.

Oh, and by the way ( I almost forgot) go fuck yerself.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 04:48:20 (EST)
From: Bim Doubtfire
Email: bim_doubtfire@hotmail.com
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Bim's little twist...
Message:
Dear Gerry

I have never prevented myself from critisising things about EV / DLM or other things. Believe me.

I did not want you to feel guilty. In my native language, the word for sin and the word for 'bad for oneself' is the same. I like that, and I liked Joeys definition of sin to miss the point.

My point is to keep the anger within and not allowing onesself to let go of it, is harmful to no other than oneself.

Best regards

Bim

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 06:10:02 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Bim Doubtfire
Subject: Bim's Indian?
Message:
Looks like you're Indian. Am I wrong?

URL's successor? Think you'll be more successful?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 10:49:23 (EST)
From: Bim Doubtfire
Email: bim_doubtfire@hotmail.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Bim's Indian?
Message:
Dear Jean-Michel
I am from Europe. OK? What is URL`s?
I was curious and I want to ask some questions and in some cases express my thoughts. In that I will succeed.

Best regards

Bim

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 12:03:47 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Bim Doubtfire
Subject: Your previous incarnation I suppose
Message:
URL was the previous premie on duty on this forum.

Try to achieve the same goals are yours.

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 23:08:23 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Bim's little twist...
Message:
Oh, and by the way ( I almost forgot) go fuck yerself.

I was going to tell the guy to fuck off, but you know how it is when I get heavy.
We'd have biff in here in a flash throwing an epiphany:::))

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 15:11:13 (EST)
From: biff
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Re: Bim's little twist...
Message:
You wish nimrod.

Dream on.

Anyway........glad they've extended your day pass :-)

Best of luck to you sport.

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Date: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 06:19:10 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: biff
Subject: Re: Bim's little twist...
Message:
Well that didn't take you too long.

But then again biff, you were always the most adorable of the dweebie trolls!

Glad you're still here;)

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Date: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 13:23:12 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Sheesh, Joey!
Message:
Biff is a good guy! I have always enjoyed 'talking' to him on the forum. I cannot figure out what you have against him - he is certainly not one of the 'trolls', as you put it (and believe me, I do think there are some trolls on here from time to time.) Anyway, I like YOU, too, Joey, and I wish you guys could get along. I think you might actually LIKE each other.

Take care -
Katie
(a.k.a. Princess Leia)

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Date: Sat, Nov 20, 1999 at 00:54:46 (EST)
From: biff
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Sheesh, Joey!
Message:
Not a troll but yes he's a dweeb? That what you saying Katie? You agree with joey that I'm a dweeb?

(Yes of course the above was a joke with a subtle sub text of self parody.)

But seriously Katie, once again I must thank you for your support. Only yourself and Gerry have ever bothered to say anything in my defence. I appreciate it more then you may realize.

Love Biff

p.s.- how's bro?

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Date: Sat, Nov 20, 1999 at 01:59:53 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: biff
Subject: Sheesh, biff!
Message:
Hey Biff -
We're ALL dweebs on this bus!

My bro is OK. He's at home, still in a lot of pain at times and driving his wife crazy, but I think she's really happy that he's there! He still has some partial memory loss from his head injury, but apparently that's normal - and the stuff he cannot remember is what happened after he fell off the roof and was in the hospital, so maybe that's better. His wrists are pretty messed up, but he's gotten surgery and is getting physical therapy for them. Looks like all will be well.

Thanks for your kind thoughts!
Love,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Nov 20, 1999 at 10:59:47 (EST)
From: biff
Email: geeking@epiphany.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Sheesh, biff!
Message:
Speaking of buses.........tell lil' bro he'll eventually get used to the memory loss :-)

Glad to hear he's on the mend. Sounds good overall.

Take care Katie you good vibe person you, lotsoloveandrespectandthanks,

biff

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 10:34:00 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Joey Lite
Subject: It's a dirty job, Joey, but somebody's got to do it NT :))
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 10:35:28 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Shri Hans' to EB Russel Part 1
Message:
From: Sri R. S. Yogi (Shri Hans' ghost writer)
Divine Light Mission,
B. 1913, Shaktinagar,
Delhi-6 (India)
To: Mr. Earl Burtrand Russel,

London.

Dated, Dehradun, the 2nd. August, 1961.

Dear Sir,

I crave your indulgence to address you this personal letter in the interest of humanity whose very existence is threatened by the rising tensions in the world.

There can never be any doubt that the big politicians, philosophers, authors and even the common people of the whole world hold the identical views that permanent peace is indispensably necessary for the safety and progress of mankind. They have been trying also with the best of their intentions and understandings to bring peace, But strangely enough, they do not get success. The more they try the more they fail. The League of Nations floundered on the rock of 'sphere of influence' and met its end in world war II. The United Nations, the next best hope of mankind, has bean rendered helpless and is fairing no better. It has also miserably failed in many respects and at many crucial moments. The inaugural speech of Mr. John F. Kennedy infused great hopes in the people But the trend of the world events indicates that there has bean a still greater aggravation of the threats to the world peace. The doctrine of panchsheel enunciated by Pandit Nehru has also borne little fruit. Naturally you who are the best friend of humanity and a great philosopher of the time, genuinely feel that human race is just on the verge of annihilation and unless the people of the world urge their respective Governments to abhor war and resolve all problems by peaceful means there is no escape from ruination. Your warning and suggestion to the people of the world is really very timely and nicely conveyed.

But the point is: Will the Governments of the world heed the counsel of the people ? Is there true democracy in any country of the world ? At least in India we have no democracy. What we have is really tyranny of legislatures, tyranny of executives and tyranny of politicians. There is absolutely no rule of law in India. We have merely an excuse for it. We have not the soul of democracy but the husk of it. The voice of the people is utterly disregarded in the interests of the politicians who are able to make much noise. Both the Indian people and the Indian Government abhor war and intend to solve all problems by negotiations even in the face of great provocations. But still we have no true peace in our own country. The communalism, the casteism and many other similar isms which the common people generally dislike and which the Government also showingly decry (but which in reality are the creations of the powerful politicians in the government itself in their own self interest) have greatly aggravated fissiparous tendencies and there is not a day when there is no riot, no disturbance in one or the other part of the country. All these reveal the bare truth that the people have no voice in the administration. It is only the top-ranking politicians who go their own way in their own interests. People are mere helpless sufferers and spectators.

The next point is: Will there be true peace by merely raising loud voice ? At least, I for one, do not believe that there can be peace by mere lip voice. What I feel is that no peace can be achieved with unsteady and turbulant mind however loudly we may cry for it. In reality peace is a sublime faculty of mind and to have it, equanimity and tranquillity of mind is absolutely necessary.
.....

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 10:36:45 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Shri Hans' to EB Russel Part 2
Message:
The third point is that unity brings peace and disunity destroys it. But true unity is not possible without identity of interests. Material interests and egotistical outlook however can never be identical. Unless the man ascends a little higher from this materialistic world and acquires Divine Vision and Divine outlook, his interests can never be identical. But as soon as he acquires Divine Vision, he perceives and realises the Divine Light which is ever-existent within all beings, which generates life-force in them and which is synonymous of Vergo, Jyoti, Param Prakash, Chandna. Noor-i-Ellahi and similar other words described in all the religious scriptures of the world and his interests are raised from material objects to the super consciousness of the same soul and in the well being of all without any barriers. After realisation of Divine Light man loses his ego and attains altruism. He attains equanimity of mind and his senses are cleansed of all evil designs and materialistic desires. He performs all his worldly duties in a detached way and is not influenced by attraction or repulsion. In such a state of mind, his interests and outlook become identical and e maganetic power of his soul attracts others to his altruistic way of thinking and action. Hence, if the great men, specially the leaders of the world who are genuinely interested in the well-being of the mankind acquire Divine Vision and realise Divine Light withinself and thereby acquire equanimity of mind, peace will automatically descend on this earth and there will remain no cause for conflicts and disturbances.

There are however, great misconceptions about acquisition of Divine Vision and realisation of Divine Light. They have bean purposely created by ignorant, self-conceited and selfish philosophers and interpreters of religious scriptures. Some of the prominent misconceptions which have grossly clouded the mind of the people are referred below:—

1. The first misbelief is that neither Divine Vision can be acquired nor Divine Light can be realised in modern times.

2. The second misbelief is that unless the mind and heart is cleansed of all evil thoughts by practice of austerity and religious rites such as penance, sacrifices, counting of beads, Yog, study of religious books etc., Divine Light can not be realised.

3. The third misbelief is that the acquisition of Divine Vision and realisation of Divine Light withinself takes much time ( several decades ) which is not possible in modern times when the life is very short.

4. The fourth misbelief is that saints and ascetics are the only persons who can acquire Divine Vision and realise
Divine Light withinself; people engaged in worldly affairs can not realise Divine Light.

All the above misbeliefs are mere misbeliefs. There can be nothing more untrue than the above notion. Firstly human life is the only time when Divine Light can be realised withinself. There are instances in abundance that modern men have realised Divine Light. Secondly the realisation of Divine Light does not need any austerity penance, sacrifices etc. The mind and the heart of the people are cleansed of evil thoughts after realisation of Divine Light and never before. The darkness is dispelled after the rising of the sun. It never happens that the darkness is dispelled first and then the sun rises. Similarly when the Divine Light which is ever-existent withinself is realised, all the evil thoughts and selfish desires are burnt in that Light. Thirdly the acquisition of Divine Vision and realisation of Divine Light does not take much time, It is realised instantaneously with the help of Realised soul of the time. Only living Realisad soul can help realise Divine Light.

There is absolutely no other way to realise it. As only a burning candle can kindle other candle, similarly only living Realised Soul can help other realise Divine Light. Fourthly realisation of Divine Light is indispensably necessary for those who manage worldly affairs. It is primarily meant for those who live in the world and do not run away from it. History shows that all the kings who realised Divine Light ruled most satisfactorily and people enjoyed complete peace and prosperity during their regimes. The latest of such kings in India was King Ashok, the great. It is very significant to note that the King Ashok won the hearts of the people of many countries, in spite of the inadequacy of the means of communication and propaganda, by his message of love and friendship; but though Pandit Nehru has adopted the same doctrine of love and friendship he has been creating enemies everywhere and he has not bean able to vouch peace in his own country. This is simply because he has not realised the Divine Light.

Consequently to achieve peace, it is absolutely necessary that the politicians of the world be counselled and if necessary obliged to realise Divine Light by personal contacts with living Realised Soul and then the humanty will be saved from ruination without much efforts.

I think you will find some substance in the above assertions and give a deep thought over it. In the interest of the humanity and world peace in which you are deeply interested, I hope you will try this method at least for trial sake and then recommend it to others if you find the truth in it.

With profound respects and expecting a line in reply,

I remain, sir,
Yours very truly,
R. S. Yogi

Excerpt from:

Antidote To Nuclear Bombs

WITH
A PRACTICAL GUIDE
TO
INTEGRAL HAPPINESS

Publishers:
DIVINE LIGHT MISSION
B-19/3, SHAKTI NAGAR?
DELHI – 6

All rights reserved
First Published
June, 1962
Price Re. 1/-

Printed in India
at
Sri Lakshmi Printing Press,
Roshanara Road, Delhi-6

+++++++++++++

Thanks to Happy who's sent me a copy of this booklet!

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 10:55:31 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: to JM
Message:
Thank you yourself, and you're welcome, Jean-Michel!

I found some more of interest for your site, when digging in a library:
An article in 'Sociological Analysis' from 1986 by Lucy DuPertuis, titled: 'How People Recognize Charisma: The Case of Darshan i Radhasoami and Divine light Mission'.
Very interesting stuff!
I also found a premie's apologetic reply/comment to the Foss & Larkin (1976)in Sociological Analysis, 'Worshiping the Absurd'.
I'll send them both to you, and I tell you, I really enjoy your site!

Cheers, Happy

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 11:05:16 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: You're not the only one!
Message:
Look at the statistics, you're not the only one.

My counters count the different readers, not the 'hits' like rawat's !!!

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 09:37:43 (EST)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: Cynthia@madriver.com
To: All
Subject: Potty Mouth and Toilet Humor
Message:
Hi All,

M and Raja's 'satsang' consist of a lot of toilet humor these days. It was surprising to me when I heard it, and it makes the premies laugh. A lot. Is this perhaps how he tries to better relate to people?!?!?

M paraphrased:

'It's like....when you go to use the bathroom, and the toilet is not working, you're really hoping that everything is not going to back up on you.'

R paraphrased (at personal appearance in Boston earlier this year, I wasn't there, but heard):

About propagation:
'It's like....you know.....You can't just shove an introductory video tape up someone's butt and expect everything to come out okay, it takes time' (OT) Also, 'just give enough to buy one gallon of jet fuel.'

Just a couple of the many examples of potty humor m and bro use. It's really wierd, as if they both had difficultly as toddlers getting toilet trained. Go figure.

M also continues to make negative remarks about marriage, relationships, etc. He is such a crude, rude dude!

Be well, Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 09:34:35 (EST)
From: who knows
Email: None
To: All
Subject: a dying cult
Message:
Statistics from Maharaji.org:
english: 1,237,081
Spanish: 83,785
Italian: 12,425
French: 19,593
German: 6,425
Hindi: 2,680 (began 1 week go)

Total: 1,361,989

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Date: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 15:02:33 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: who knows
Subject: These are web page hits
Message:
It took me about 10 page hits to find the info on M's site so 10 of the updated numbers are mine. This shows how absolutely meaningless these numbers with respect to M's popularity.

Tell me, Who Knows, how many of those hits were from anti-M surfers or neutrals?

John.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 04:11:38 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: who knows
Subject: what bullshit
Message:
Just shooting from the hip here because I sure as hell don't want to go over to Maharaji's stupid ugly website.

These number might be number of videos viewed per language YTD. I really doubt that it is the number of people that have rec'd Maharaji's Big K.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 11:42:45 (EST)
From: Just a guess
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: what bullshit
Message:
Statistics from Maharaji.org:
english: 1,237,081
Spanish: 83,785
Italian: 12,425
French: 19,593
German: 6,425
Hindi: 2,680 (began 1 week go)

Total: 1,361,989

Number of cookies given out by Maharaji.org?::))
OR,
Total number of clicks on his website?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 03:03:20 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: who knows
Subject: Re: a dying cult
Message:
If these statistics have any authenticity, I would assume that they refer to the numbers who have received Knowledge. Any fool who has been to an event that M has held in the last few years knows that to claim over a million English speaking followers is absurd. Most of the people who received K got it between 72 and 75 when an abundance of mahatmas were running around the world giving it out after 30 satsangs. The numbers of those practising and receiving K declined steadily until 76 when large amounts of premies exited. It then plateaued during the 'GMJ you are all powerful' years and took a steep dive from about 82 onwards. There are very few new faces around- mainly a bedraggled and sparse array of aging old timers.
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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 20:15:58 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: who knows
Subject: And here's some more statistics...
Message:

The truth about Maharaji See statistics on the page.

Child abuse in Maharaji's cult See statistics on the page.

What people now think of Maharaji See statistics on the page.

Shattered lives and tragedies See statistics on the page.

Maharaji's ashrams see statistics on the page.

Sex and scandal in Malibu See statistics on the page.

Maharaji's (unofficial) Homepage See statistics on the page.

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 20:22:38 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Sir Dave, my hero!
Message:
Hi Sir Dave! Thanks for that post. It warmed my heart!

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 20:44:37 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Hey steady on girl
Message:
I'm a sort of anti-hero now, the Lord of the Underworld. But I'm glad my post warmed your heart.
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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 20:53:00 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Lord of the Underworld
Message:
Sir Dave: You can be my anti-hero anytime! I have visited Hell and found it to be very... warm! Love the graphics!

Well Sir Dave, you will be jealous. Robyn is coming to San Francisco next week to visit family, and also Joe and me. I have prepared a foil crown to bestow upon Miss Anything Goes 1999. Then Joe and I will march Robyn through the Castro district (the center of the gay community) and see if she passes muster!

I also want to thank you for defending the honor of Mistress Grammar, over in Hell. Isn't that what knights are for?

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 10:14:59 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: who knows
Subject: Re: a dying cult...you bet!
Message:
Kewl stats! Of course whether they're true or not is completely another story.

But seeing that you're so much in the 'know' who knows, why don't you give us THESE stats:

-The number of people who have received k in the last 2 years in North America (US and Canada)
AND
-the number of people (again in North America) who have left m and k.

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 15:26:29 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: who knows
Subject: Misleading stats
Message:
So you gave us a bunch of numbers... Big deal. What are they supposed to mean? You want to give us some real stats? Give us the names & addresses of donors and amounts of the donations each made to EV in 1999.
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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 16:15:12 (EST)
From: who knows
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: why? are you looking for some potential victims/clients? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 16:14:50 (EST)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Stats/Record Keeping/Misc.
Message:
Hi Marianne,

I'm glad you're back. When I was in Conn. I worked as the personnel/benefits administrator for a 45 atty law firm, so I know how deadlines can be in your profession. I hope you have some time to rest.

I was wondering what happened to all of DLM's records of those who received knowledge (at least in the US)? I know that I completed a registration form in 1976. Was there a time when DLM did not make a record of a new premie? I ask because an old premie I know went to a knowledge practice session with m, last year I think, ( in Wash.DC) and he almost wasn't let into the program. He received k in the early 70's and they grilled him about who he received k from, etc., etc., Apparently, everyone was questioned?? I may have this wrong, but that's how I heard it.

That surprised me because I would think that DLM's records of PWK past to present would have been passed on to EV.

This past summer when m was in Montreal he had a knowledge session. Three people from Vermont got k. The coordinator told me the drive home was nuts! They kept asking all these questions about the techniques, why they're like this or that. They were really confused. (They got k from m, too).

Anyway, within less than a week, two weren't practicing at all, the other was doing meditation but wasn't 'getting it' (what the coordinator said). In the following month they had 2 visits from an instructor for a k review! The big 'not getting it' was the connection to m. That was stated by the instructor and coordinator. Interesting.

Regarding propagation, m said recently (paraphrased)...I like having all you old timers around, but I would like to see some new faces. Kind of a mean thing to say, I thought, but very telling about how few 'old timers' are around anymore.

I'm rambling. Sorry for my memory gaps; right now my memory sucks!

Be well,

Love, Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 19:44:33 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: Hi Cynthia
Message:
Hi there Cynthia. Thank you for your post. I finished my brief. It always takes a lot of time and energy to do a brief, with the added weight of it being a death penalty case. There's tremendous pressure, as you can imagine.

The stats that who knows posted are just a bunch of numbers, like I said. He said they are from M's site, but what do they mean? He gave no information to go with it. As for the premie registrations, I filled one out in 1972. I'd be very interested to see all that data too. If Rotwat ever decides to sue anyone, or anyone decides to sue Rotwat, that information could probably be obtained through discovery -- assuming it hasn't been shredded.

I wish you well with your healing process.

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 02:01:51 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: H/B
Subject: Henley/Bronson
Message:
Greetings,
How many people do you live with and do you live
with the opposite sex. Also, how many people
do you work with.

I am not sure all the storms are supposed to
be avoided.
And that a life is measured by
how well you muzzle the human tendencies
and vulnerabilities that expose you to all
the various types of reactions and responses
from ourselves and others while we deal with
the changeing situations and moments.

I know too many people that have a philosophy
of love or detachment or 'cant we all get along'
and yet they cant avoid doing things or reacting
to things in ways that go against thier stated
approach to life.
Even Monks in cloisters end up with interpersonal
squabbles or ego trips or something.
If there is something that is almighty,
I see evidence that trouble is almighty.
Why is that?
Well, so that we have to contend with it!
If there is nothing but death for a human, why
would the situation here be SO filled with
inescapable problems for all?

If conciousness sprung from matter, SOMEONE
should have no problems. At a minimum it should
be a matter of odds.
Karma is a weak response if you are about to
mention that. Elaborate if you want to go in
that direction.

The ones that are adults now are responsible
to act on their insight if they see a threat
in the making that strenghtens those that
dream of enslaveing others.
Sure there is tons of crap but arent we lucky that
some took the time to contend with the crap and
set up with great effort the forum and the
web sites.
Others are willing to deal with the
crap that comes to the forum and tries to make
it a useless sanford oops I mean satsang hall.

See how it is good to not just bail out on the
battles of life but to engage and deal?
There is growth there.
Those that drift in the moment as is reccomended
by the armies of the oneness world point
in a direction that has no attainable goal.
Or, the goal comes with a web of deceit that
ensnares the mind of the hapless 'drifter'

Henley managed to wait till he was 50 or more
to decide to actually marry someone. AND she was
not like the girl in the song he wrote about.
She was a real person, not the stoned ideal
he sang about.
Richard Bronson is a typical music thief.
Runs a record company and bleeds the musicians
dry. He gets vastly rich like ALL the record
company owners do and the artists make nothing
on thier record contracts for the most part
and make thier money on tours. And the record
company gets some of that too.
It is a mean business.

Niether one makes a good role model.
Unless you just want to borrow thier
public philosophy. (Dont let the dirt show in
the tabloids for gods sake!) Lord knows its
hiding in the closet.

I appreciate your suggestion to 'take it easy',
but on this forum I was waiting for the premies
to make a concerted effort to relax us out of
being bothered with it all and I am not sure if
you have that motive or not.

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 07:25:04 (EST)
From: Me to you
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Re: Henley/Bronson
Message:
Sure , there is death. But now there is life.Do you like it?
Not the cares and worries of everyday struggle, but the pure exhilirating rush of living energy....the beauty of the day,the pageant of each season....the colour , the music.....the taste of it all? Life....for now....Yours
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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 09:13:11 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Me to you
Subject: Re: Henley/Bronson
Message:
Yes,
That is my idea of a religion.
I think I am lucky to have a 7 and 10 yr old in the house.
They are either ready to have fun, or are having fun,
or if they are upset about something, it doesnt take much
to restart the fun.

As people get older the tendency to view things as mundane
kicks in big time. That is how you get a religion
like the eastern stuff where this is all reffered to
as 'Illusion'.
And the effort you must make is to insure you get to
go into the 'higher states' so you dont have to get reborn
here to work out your 'karma'.
Look at that premie site that DREK just linked to the
forum, the guy wrote a story where the girl went to
see 'maharaji' in some inner realm and she had to
say goodbye to the 'things she loved' and rode a butterfly
off and away from this 'boring' life here on earth.

Typical.
People, adults I know, watch tons of tv to keep thier
minds away from thier own lives and just daydream I guess.
Not easy to get them to laugh.
What is your actual method?
I know some people get the carpe diem thing going when
they think death is near. Or they go through some
Scrooge type experience where they refresh the view that
life here is an fantastic thing and there is joy to be had.
And they zero in on what they want to feel and do
and do it with.....should I say it to you??
enthusiasm. which means god within.
Not the -live now- because you are going to die and
there is nothing but your death ahead of you, that you
mentioned.

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 08:55:48 (EST)
From: Laurence Olivier
Email: None
To: Meryl Streep
Subject: To: Meryl
Message:
...ah, the pure theater of it all. The drama of existence!

And you my beloved Meryl Streep of forum posters, are the greatest of them all!!

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 09:21:07 (EST)
From: Rosalind Russell
Email: None
To: Laurence Olivier
Subject: Auntie Mame
Message:
Darling, the fun is in action and giving and reaching
out and having your way with this world and watching
a child grow with hope and freshness and growing
in that way yourself. And when the child sinks into the
the mundane view, to revive them because you have been
there and come out for good.
Having a master is to throw away your life and that is
no way to live!
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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 01:19:26 (EST)
From: Totally Unknown
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Midnight, Money & the Brogans
Message:
Joey: Your post about the Brogans and their envelope donation to the guru was interesting. The thing that was most interesting to me was that after the Brogans went to David Smith at 2 AM, they then went to seek the late night advice of Yoram Weiss, and Yoram gave it to them.

Yoram was my sweetie when he first became a premie. I was a big wheel in my community. We were lovers for several months. We broke up over The Nasty. Yoram was very good at The Nasty. He was also a very kind hearted, genuine person during this time. I knew his sister Reut, who lived on Anderson Street with John & Donna Greer (in case premie spies are reading and think this story is a fabrication). We broke up because I loved Yoram, and his physicality, and put them before meditation.

Sweet Yoram..... We lost each other because I loved him. He would never have allowed a knock on the door to interfere with meditation when I knew him... But I guess people change, don't they?

TU

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 13:50:20 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Totally Unknown
Subject: Re: Midnight, Money & the Brogans
Message:
Sweet Yoram..... We lost each other because I loved him. He would never have allowed a knock on the door to interfere with meditation when I knew him... But I guess people change, don't they?

Sometimes.

But how do YOU KNOW that he was meditating when the Brogans knocked on his door at around 3am?

Remember also, that the Brogans are amongst m's top money people. Its Yoram's service in large part to cater to precisely these kind of people, to ensure that the flow keeps going m's way.
Has he changed? Or is he just smoother at doing his job?

BTW, I'm also curious what you meant by this:

We broke up over The Nasty. Yoram was very good at The Nasty.

What happened? What's 'The Nasty' all about?
Did Yoram catch a 'nasty' cold? Or a 'nasty' case of herpes? (hee hee ha ha, just joking:::))

Seriuosly, could you fill us in?

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 02:27:24 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Totally Unknown
Subject: Re: Midnight, Money & the Brogans
Message:
Yurim was my favorite satsang in the nineties.
He was still the devotee.
Clung to the religion of m is lord till today.
prem rawat has learned over the years to adjust
his behaviour to keep those working close to him like
yurim and chris standerwick around.
Those that are just the right distance from him can
maintain the devotee thing because prem rawat STILL
plays lord with them.
He has not stopped at all.

sean brogan was comfortable telling that joke to
prem rawat because obviously he knew probably from
personal expeince that prem rawat gets into dirty jokes.

And, the lords reaction shows how he has learned to
keep his rages in check when a big donor is misbehaving.
However, the 'bad bad boy' attitude is coming from the
knowing that S Brogan is stuck in devotee mode and rawat
plays off it and feeds it.

Same with Yurim.
Yurim is stuck. No family likely for him.
the rawat is lord illusion is something he is too
commited to and I know personally how you can make
excuses for all the cracks and inconsistancies that
you see.
Maybe you can grab him by the privates and steal him away.

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 02:39:34 (EST)
From: Totally Unknown
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: Midnight, Money & the Brogans
Message:
Bill: My relationship with Yoram was many years ago. I am horrified to hear that he is the primary fundraiser for M. I make no excuses for him, but I knew him and cared for him when he was a very genuine human being. I feel great sorrow about his role in M's enterprise. When I knew Yoram, he was an international vagabond, based in my community. I guess the closer he got to M, the more he changed. I knew Yoram when he was a compassionate, open minded, caring person, and I saw the beginning of his transformation into something else. I was very in love with him at the time. It is with great regret that I make these observations.

Totally Unknown

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 14:54:08 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Totally Unknown
Subject: What a move!!
Message:
TU,
I've reread your post on top of this thread a few times, and methinks that you're pulling a quick spinorama on us with this qualifying post.

Beautiful skating!

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 15:16:20 (EST)
From: T.U.
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Wait a minute, Joey
Message:
Joey: I'm not spinning anything. Take my words at face value. My posts about this are not meant to be a joke. I figured the premies would be all over me about this. I'm a genuine ex, and have been out for many, many years. My second post was in reply to bb's comments. I'm sad that Yoram got to be where he is today with Miragey. He was a very fine person when I knew him. But he was morphing into a very, very serious devotee, even more than I was at the time.

And no, I don't know if Yoram was in his hotel room meditating. I was just making an observation that way back when, nothing could tear him away from his barragon. It was that night-time mediation that came between us, if you catch my drift.

I am not pulling anyone's leg.

T.U.

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 17:44:23 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: T.U.
Subject: Re: Wait a minute, T.U.
Message:
You suggested at least that Yoram had 'evolved' from his earlier days where as you say you couldn't tear him away from his barragon, and the fact that he answered the door for the Brogans at 3am was and advised them was proof of his changing.
Thats what you clearly suggested in your title post and in the last two you've been skating away from that.
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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 18:44:03 (EST)
From: T.U.
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Joey...
Message:
Joey: You're reading too much into this. The real intent of the post was me feeling nostalgic about Yoram and wishing that he'd paid more attention to me in the middle of the night, rather than the gooroo.... That's all. Really.

T.U.

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 19:44:10 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: T.U.
Subject: T.U., honey...
Message:
Well I guess that means I can stop reading your posts now, and if thats what you want, thats cool with me.

But please, one more comment, or question if you will.
You say you're 'feeling nostalgic about Yoram' and yet you also said that you wish that 'he'd pay more attention to me in the middle of the night, rather than the gooroo....'

Fuck, my heart goes out to you. What was going on there?!
Oh no, don't tell me...GOOEY WAS IN BED WITH YOU GUYS?!?

T.U...., you know you can count on us for support. We're here for ya.

Feel free to tell us as much or as little as you'd like.

BTW, I'm still waiting to find out what Yoram's 'Nasty' was all about.

( And,BTW again,I'm not sure that being into 'nasties' is necessarily the end of the world.
Being into nazis is much worse. At least we can say Yoram wasn't into nazis...I hope??)

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 19:51:35 (EST)
From: T.U.
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Touche', Joey! LOL
Message:
No, the gooey guy wasn't there! hahahahahaha

'Doing the nasty' is an American expression. That's the end of what I have to say on this topic.

Thanks for the laugh!

T.U.

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 20:05:10 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: T.U.
Subject: Re: Touche', T.U.! LOL
Message:
No, the gooey guy wasn't there! hahahahahaha

My heart STILL goes out to ya.
I mean if Gooey wasn't there, and Yoram was in bed with YOU and still thinking about Gooey...FUCK!!...need I say more?

'Doing the nasty' is an American expression.

Ya, thats right...and thats probably why I never heard about it here in Sri Lanka. Good point.

That's the end of what I have to say on this topic.

My luck! I feel like I could go on forever!!

Thanks for the laugh!

No extra charge T.U.! You've been a real hoot yourself!:::))

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 09:36:01 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Totally Unknown
Subject: Midnight, Money & the Brogans
Message:
I think he would have made a smart choice asking you
to marry him.
However he has changed, there is still the compassionate
and caring guy there. I was like that all the time
I was involved with the lord of the universe also.
Yurim is lost in guru fantasy. He is a dreamer, only
his dream has been stolen by prem rawats domineering dream
that he is god incarnate.
Chris standerwick spent about the last 12 years in the
garage as kind of a do everything guy for the family.
For 50 dollars a month and a place to sleep and food.
He called me last year. He was the same guy, like Yurim,
if you are a stout believer and have your own optomism
and subjagate your thinking into the devotee role,
you can hang in there because rawat still plays the role
and the programming is too entrenched and they have
accepted it. Like shp, only shp is unable to converse
with any honesty at all.

Yurim's belief was just what the premie ordered.
When he came around in the 90's to the northeast,
I understood his every viewpoint and liked the same
stories he did about prem rawat, those that supported
the notion that -see, he acts like the lord sometimes and
says lord like things and isnt it great!-.

So, that is where Yurim is at. Stuck in believer mode.
And time ticks by.

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Date: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 13:56:13 (EST)
From: octopus
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Chains & hopes & names
Message:
I hope the following can be useful to anyone who's ever tried to move on from a situation that might be hindering their self-advancement.

Although it relates to a character whose 'fall from grace' was certainly spectacular and precipitous, at the time this 'darshan' was given (1977), Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh was able to come up with a fair amount of insight into some aspects of the human condition. (I left his organisation in 1980, and have no intention of returning).

Do have a read, and see if it might help someone you know.

(from 10th August 1977)

Bhagwan: Hello, christopher! what about you?

Christopher: I have a question.

Bhagwan: Tell me.

Christopher: I used to follow guru maharajji ...

Bhagwan: Mm mm.

Christopher: ... and I made a promise, I made a vow that I would follow him for the rest of my life. That promise still means something to me but I'd like to try your meditation.

Bhagwan: That vow will be standing as a barrier, because with me either you are with me or not with me. you can try but it will be just so-so ... it will not really be of much significance.

If you are feeling good with your vow and if you are growing, then there is no need to try. If you are feeling frustrated there, then one has to reconsider things, one has to have courage to reconsider things.

In fact the past binding, cannot be ultimately binding. If you find one day that you are not growing in a certain commitment - give it all that you can give but if you find that you are not growing, that something is missing, that you don't fit or it does not fit with you - then one has to be courageous enough to come out of it.

Life is more valuable than your goal. And what does vow mean? It means that in a certain moment you felt that you were going to be this way for your whole life, but that is the feeling of a certain moment. It was true in that moment but who knows about the next moment?

It is just like falling in love with a woman: you say that you will be with her for your whole life or even if you have another life, you would like to have her as your beloved again. And these are not false words, you are not pretending: you are true, you are authentically so. This is your feeling.

Mm? Just now one man took sannyas but that was not authentic. He was taking sannyas and thinking to drop it; it is meaningless. And I don't say that sannyas cannot be dropped, I don't say that, but you should not carry that idea in the mind right now otherwise what is the point of taking it?

When you are taking it you will be totally in it and feeling that you are going to be with it for your whole life, but I don't say that one day a situation cannot arise where you feel that you are no more growing;. Then it has to be dropped! And there is no breach, no betrayal; it simply show that in that moment you go very very emotionally into it. But you have not grown and now you are feeling like a prisoner: if you remain with it your growth suffers; if you get out of it, you feel guilty. But some decision has to be taken.

One day love happens, another day it disappears; what to do? What is one supposed to do? And of course you will remember your promises that you had given to the woman but what can you do now? You were as helpless that time when you were in love as you are now to get out of it. you have to get out of it otherwise it will be an ugly relationship: you will carry on without love. you will go on pretending that you love this woman because in the past you have promised.

Just the other day I was reading a beautiful story ... A Jew was very ill. He was a very rich Jew but be had never contributed, never donated a single pai (penny). He was really on the death bed, and the doctors told him that he could survive for three more days at the most. They said 'If you want to do something, do it; we cannot help you. Medicine has failed.'

So just out of desperation the man called the rabbi and told him 'If you pray for me and if I survive, I am going to give you fifty thousand dollars for the new synagogue that you are going to build.'

The rabbi prayed continuously day and night for the three days. Fifty thousand dollars! - and this man has not even given a single pai to anybody ever! The man survived. One month passes and the rabbi tried diplomatically many times to remind him about those fifty thousand dollars, but he would not even listen! He would not even talk about it; he would avoid the subject.

Finally the rabbi was at a loss what to do. One day he said frankly, 'Have you completely forgotten?! What about those fifty thousand dollars that you promised for the new synagogue? - Now you are okay. The miracle happened - I prayed three days, day in, day out. I didn't sleep.'

The old Jew said, 'What fifty thousand dollars? What are you talking about? Did I promise you? That simply shows how ill I was, that's all. That simply shows how ill I was!'.

There are moments when one is so ill that one can say 'Fifty thousand dollars!' There are moments when one can get into it. I am not saying that it is wrong to get into things: that's how one live life.

But this is meaningless. If you are being fulfilled I am the last person to take you out of it. Simply go into it, escape from here; these people may disturb you, you may get into some new thing;. just escape from here! If you are feeling fulfilled, if you are feeling you are growing, go and grow with all my blessings. But if you are feeling that nothing has happened and you have been just a victim (christopher shakes his head in negation) then get out of it! No past can be binding. Have the courage to get out of it. You have become wiser ...

When did you promise? How many year ago?

Christopher: Must be four or five years ago.

Bhagwan: Four or five years? That means you must have become a little wiser, more understanding, more alert. Just think of it in this way: if you meet your so-called guru maharajji for the first time today, are you going to take the vow? Just think of it that way. If you think that still you will take the vow, then it's okay; then the vow is still valid. But if you think that if you meet him now you are not going to be caught in it, then the vow is invalid. You follow me?

It is simple, very simple - and always let it be a criterion even with me: if you become a sannyasin and after five years you feel that now if you meet me you will not become a sannyasin then drop it immediately! It is finished! Never carry anything that you have outgrown, but if you feel that yes, you would still like to become a sannyasin, it is still alive. Then something is still possible, it is potential. Then go into it, go with it. Think about it.

But if you really want to get into things here your vow will become a barrier. And I am not saying, not even hinting, that you break it. I am simply saying: you have to be very alert about what you are doing to your being. A vow cannot be binding; it cannot become an imprisonment for you - your freedom remains intact. It was out of your freedom that you took the vow. You are still free: you can take it back.

If you feel that you can grow here, that you can grow here, that you would like to go into things here, then drop that. Yes, you will feel a little disturbed - that too is childish; that too is a kind of guilt that society creates in people.

The past is no more! Live in the present and don't think too much of the past because nothing is more valuable than freedom. Meditate over it. Mm?

(musing) I sometimes wonder if I'm clinging on to this forum, and whether it's even healthy to identify ourselves as 'ex-premies' ... still implies an attachment, no? Considering that prem does mean love, I'd prefer to callmyself as an opponent of Maharaj (OM!), rather than 'ex-premie'. Anyone else got any thoughts on the subject?

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 08:49:07 (EST)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: octopus
Subject: Re: Chains & hopes & names
Message:
Dear Octopus,

In the past few months before I became an ex, I mused about the old vow which I made to m, vs. the new vow which is required of new premies. There's quite a difference. It's laughable to me now.

Is my old vow negated by the new-age vow asked of new premies? If I ever wanted an answer about this from m I probably would be ignored. The basis of my promise was a big lie. Therefore, how can my vow be valid? As I see it, if one promises something to a fraud, the promise isn't true. It is a blantant betrayal. It was true from my point of view at the time, however, I don't believe I owe anything to m, quite the opposite.

I certainly don't want to listen to another cult leader's 'take' on a vow to m, but I do appreciate your post. I have taken back my promise to m. He's not my guru, lord or anything to me. The love I felt for him has slowly deteriorated into disgust and mistrust. So, m can take my promise and shove it.

There must be thousands of non-practicing premies or ex-premies who wonder about this. But I don't anymore because I was living a lie while with m. Bhagwan was setting you up to join him. Read between the lines and you'll notice that subtle pull.

I hope you're doing well, this stuff is tough. There are so many things besides any vows we made to m that have to be sorted out and clarified. This forum helps me a lot. Despite interference from others who want to defend m, (which I find annoying at times) their posts do make me realize how fortunate I am to have come here where there are real thinking people with more experience than me in leaving m's cult.

I sincerely wish you the best in your recovery from all this crap.

Be well, Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 02:01:11 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: octopus
Subject: Break the chains!
Message:
Doc Oc, as I like to call you: Your last few thoughts in your post were whether you were clinging to the forum, and whether it's healthy to say one is an ex-premie, rather than an opponent of M. You also quoted Rajneesh, whom you left behind in 1980, I am happy to hear. I have clients who served time with Ma Anand Sheela and people around Rajneesh, and I lived in Oregon when they set up the community there. I have a very negative view of Rajneesh as a result..

Doc Oc, we all have to question whether we cling to the forum from time to time. That is a natural reaction. I think that the best thing to do is to constantly question one's own life and existence -- the antithesis of the directive that we should 'never leave room for doubt' in our minds. The forum poses questions that, as premies, we avoided like the plague. Often, the discussion touches upon issues we've avoided dealing with as we've exited the cult. The discussion here often unearths feelings that we never knew existed, and we never contemplated uncovering. It's a much more honest community than the premie community. Even though I have been out of the cult for many years, the forum has proved cathartic for me.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 21:45:51 (EST)
From: youngold
Email: None
To: octopus
Subject: Re: Chains & hopes & names
Message:
Bhagwan: Four or five years? That means you must have become a little wiser, more understanding, more alert. Just you wrote: ' think of it in this way: if you meet your so-called guru maharajji for the first time today, are you going to take the vow? Just think of it that way. If you think that still you will take the vow, then it's okay; then the vow is still valid. But if you think that if you meet him now you are not going to be caught in it, then the vow is invalid.
You follow me? '

something to think about.

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Date: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 23:37:28 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: youngold
Subject: youngold
Message:
I think of it this way: if someone lies to me enough times, I really couldn't care less what I promised them.

This is a qualitative computation, as well. If I'm being lied to about matters of my soul and the fate of the entire world, I have no consideration for keeping what supposedly
is that person's secret meditation technique.

But Baghwan, aka Osho, was one of the few gurus who actually seemed worse than Ol' Mirage. Why bring him into this? To we have temporarily re-foray into the wonders of spreading food poisoning into a town to extend more influence through voting? Or Baghwan's promise to feed and house whomever came to his (was it) Oregon commune only to turn them away when they showed?

Do lies sound better with an Indian or accent or what?

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 16:17:36 (EST)
From: youngold
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Re: youngold
Message:
runamok... I think you misunderstand my post. I read this bhagwan post and am replying to the author that it maybe a good point that if you cannot make the same promise now that one did long ago... maybe the vow should not be kept. I was even applying this 'test ' to marriage. would you marry her again?

your reply had some bite to it, I think you misunderstood me. ...youngold

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Date: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 18:25:37 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: octopus
Subject: Re: Chains & hopes & names
Message:
Yes, I'm an opponent of Mirage.

You really want to print that Baghwan shit here? Seems like you're missing the point.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 10:41:35 (EST)
From: octopus
Email: planetqwerty@postmaster.co.uk
To: Runamok
Subject: Re: Chains & hopes & names
Message:
Entitled to your opinion you certainly are, but who's missing the point? The scam that Rajneesh was responsible for in the USA was horrendous, but fortunately (for me) I had left long before the move to Oregon. Prior to that, in Poona, India, I found some considerable wisdom in a number of his discourses, - but don't worry, I have no intention of using this forum as a platform for them.

The transcript I quoted was helpful for me in the ongoing process of getting M's hooks out my system, and out of that post came some very useful replies - and my thanks go especially to Cynthia G and Marianne for opening up both the discussion and process of 'recovery', which must surely be two of the main motives for keeping this site ongoing, no?

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