la-ex -:- sir dave/ev charity status -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 20:45:46 (EST)

__ Runamok -:- Re: sir dave/ev charity status -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 22:53:25 (EST)

__ Marianne -:- I like your style, LA - EX -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 21:48:49 (EST)

la-ex -:- The Barrrogginns!!! -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 20:27:52 (EST)

__ Roger eDrek -:- All Amtext stories are ***Best*** -:- Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 16:16:43 (EST)

__ Joey -:- OMIGOD! Don't leave me Brogan-hearted!...Great story LA-EX...thanks again!! -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 22:20:41 (EST)

__ __ Charlie -:- Joey and LA.. thanks! -:- Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 05:28:51 (EST)

__ Nick Danger, Third Eye -:- Forget The Meek, The Blockheads Will Inherit The Earth -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 20:45:38 (EST)

Grace -:- LOTU craziness -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 17:25:09 (EST)

__ Charlie -:- Re: LOTU craziness -:- Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 06:26:01 (EST)

__ Gerry -:- Re: LOTU craziness -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 19:17:16 (EST)

__ __ Charles -:- Re: LOTU craziness -:- Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 00:57:28 (EST)

__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Re: LOTU craziness -:- Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 01:20:16 (EST)

__ __ __ __ bill -:- Re: LOTU craziness -:- Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 23:33:58 (EST)

Sir Dave -:- How to complain about Elan Vital -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 01:01:08 (EST)

LA-EX -:- gerry/follow the money -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 22:41:55 (EST)

__ Charlie -:- Re: gerry/follow the money -:- Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 06:46:27 (EST)

LA-EX -:- jen-michael's bad news for ratwot -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 22:34:42 (EST)

__ Jean-Michel -:- Insight seminars -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 04:39:28 (EST)

__ __ Deputy Dog -:- J-M, you and I both know Insight meditation works, so what's the big deal? (nt) -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 16:46:22 (EST)

__ __ __ gerry -:- Re: J-M, you and I both know Insight meditation works, so what's the big deal? -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 16:57:34 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- details -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 19:16:33 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Re: details -:- Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 19:45:13 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- The REAL question: who's who's agent? -:- Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 03:56:29 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Re: The REAL question: who's who's agent? -:- Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 19:47:54 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: The REAL question: who's who's agent? -:- Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 23:19:43 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Enough -:- Re: The REAL question: who's who's agent? -:- Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 05:21:43 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gerry -:- How could I forget??? -:- Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 10:52:41 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Enough -:- Re: How could I forget??? -:- Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 11:22:08 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nick Danger, Third Eye -:- Re: The REAL question: who's who's agent? -:- Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 01:02:47 (EST)

__ __ Joey -:- Re: Insight seminars -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 12:29:09 (EST)

__ __ __ gerry -:- Re: Insight seminars -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 12:50:04 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: Insight seminars...can't help but wonder -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 13:29:09 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia G. -:- Re: Insight seminars: PRETTY CREEPY! (nt) -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 13:12:49 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Enough -:- A Cult within a Cult(nt) -:- Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 05:25:21 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Insight seminars: PRETTY CREEPY! Why? (nt) -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 17:20:46 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Margaret Singer on Insight seminars -:- Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 13:37:21 (EST)

LA-EX -:- story time -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 22:18:46 (EST)

__ bill burke -:- LA-EX -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 16:17:31 (EST)

__ __ Joey -:- To: bb -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 16:29:36 (EST)

__ __ __ bb -:- Re: To: bb -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 22:32:15 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Joey -:- Nim = Joey, Joey = Nim -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 22:47:14 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ bill=muddled memory -:- Re: Nim = Joey, Joey = Nim -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 22:59:57 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- No sweat bb....you're kewl with me! (nt) -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 23:10:38 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- kewl -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 23:38:21 (EST)

__ Roger eDrek -:- ***Best of Forum*** -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 03:08:57 (EST)

__ Joey -:- Re: story time -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 23:27:37 (EST)

__ __ Enough -:- Re: story time -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 06:42:21 (EST)

__ __ __ Joey -:- To: Enough, re: Henry Reif -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 14:15:18 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Enough -:- Sorry, no Joey(nt) -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 14:38:52 (EST)

__ Gerry -:- Follow the money trail... -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 22:33:11 (EST)

__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Yes, I'll add these as testimonials in my Corporate section -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 02:22:35 (EST)

Joey -:- Story time! -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 21:52:55 (EST)

__ Runamok -:- Inscription time -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 12:51:30 (EST)

__ __ bb -:- Re: Inscription time -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 23:26:25 (EST)

__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Re: Inscription time - DONE! -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 15:47:34 (EST)

__ __ gerry -:- Re: Inscription time -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 13:03:30 (EST)

__ Katie -:- Thanks, Joey (and LA EX, too) -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 09:46:19 (EST)

__ __ Joey -:- Thanks Katie! -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 12:39:06 (EST)

__ Scrooge McDuck -:- Re: Story time! -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 05:18:26 (EST)

__ __ Mendl Mosskovitch -:- Re: Story time! -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 12:43:31 (EST)

__ Roger eDrek -:- ***Best of Fourm*** -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 02:36:01 (EST)

__ __ Joey -:- Re: ***Best of Fourm*** -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 13:58:49 (EST)

Mickey the Pharisee -:- What the heck is going on? -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 15:36:01 (EST)

__ Deputy Dog -:- On being born again -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 16:29:27 (EST)

__ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: On being born again -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 17:40:20 (EST)

__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: On being born again -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 23:03:48 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: On being born again -:- Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 23:47:36 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ dead bill -:- Re: On being born again -:- Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 09:25:57 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Bill & Mickey - On being born again -:- Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 10:58:00 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Re: Bill & Mickey - On being born again -:- Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 00:03:41 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Bill & Mickey - On being born again -:- Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 13:49:56 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Bill & Mickey - On being born again -:- Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 22:32:06 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Being re-bored -:- Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 22:51:39 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Being nausated! -:- Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 00:03:59 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Re: Being -:- Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 00:11:33 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Being -:- Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 00:17:47 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Being -:- Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 08:03:21 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- The blind leading the blind -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 10:12:28 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Being -:- Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 18:15:33 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Re: Being -:- Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 00:31:45 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Amen, Thank God we have Mickey -:- Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 01:28:34 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Amen, Thank God we have Deputy Dog -:- Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 11:02:45 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- GET REAL! -:- Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 15:02:18 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: GET REAL! -:- Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 22:46:39 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- catdog -:- Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 23:47:10 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: catdog - bill, why would I want to hear more from that idiot? (nt) -:- Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 00:11:45 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: catdog - bill, why would I want to hear more from that idiot? (nt) -:- Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 05:09:48 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- starry night -:- Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 00:26:53 (EST)

__ Mili -:- Re: What the heck is going on? -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 18:56:52 (EST)

__ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: What the heck is going on? -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 20:25:21 (EST)

__ gerry -:- Re: What the heck is going on? -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 15:40:45 (EST)

__ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: What the heck is going on? -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 16:01:40 (EST)

__ __ __ gerardo -:- Re: What the heck is going on? -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 20:31:54 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: What the heck is going on? -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 21:08:16 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Padre Miguel -:- Re: What the heck is going on? -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 20:48:23 (EST)

__ __ __ Katie -:- What cave did YOU crawl out of, Mickey :) ! -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 17:42:22 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Mickey the uhm, ahh, err...forgetful -:- Re: What cave did YOU crawl out of, Mickey :) ! -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 20:13:56 (EST)

Gerry -:- Guerillas in our midsts -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 14:03:44 (EST)

__ Roger eDrek -:- 100% Agreement - Delete Cerebus -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 15:49:27 (EST)

__ __ Mili -:- Re: 100% Agreement - Delete Cerebus -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 17:35:08 (EST)

__ __ __ Charlie -:- Sexy Milli!! -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 17:50:57 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Mili -:- Re: Sexy Milli!! -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 18:50:48 (EST)

__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- The peanut gallery chimes in -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 17:43:20 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Ned Kelly -:- Well, You Dont Have To Comment Roger (nt) -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 20:29:31 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Mili -:- Re: The peanut gallery chimes in -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 18:53:58 (EST)

__ Sir Dave -:- The way to the ex-premie only forum -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 14:56:07 (EST)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Guerillas in our midsts -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 15:13:15 (EST)

__ __ Charlie -:- Re: Guerillas in our midsts -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 14:28:02 (EST)

__ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Guerillas in our midsts -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 14:44:16 (EST)

__ __ Katie -:- Forum introduction -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 14:19:09 (EST)

__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Something rings false about you. -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 15:32:43 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Forum introduction -:- Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 15:31:40 (EST)

Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 20:45:46 (EST) From: la-ex Email: None To: All Subject: sir dave/ev charity status Message:

I think you have a good point about the status of ev as a bona-fide charity. Can we get any figures on how much money they raise each year and how much is spent on rotwat and how much on his silly tours where premies go from city to city and pack the hall while 4 or 5 new people come to the program. About 10 years ago one of the local premies went to malibu to learn about m's request for money to buy land around his house. He came back to put on these seminars to explain the finances to the local premies. At that time (late 80's) m needed 1.5 million to live on, and 1.5 million for his tours(3mil/year). The poor premie started to think about the whole thing(he had to answer everyone's questions every night about why so much money was needed) and was never seen again.I have heard that these days m wants 6 million/year. It would be interesting to see a breakdown on where your hard earned money is going-how much for raja ji, how much for the mistress, how much for the girl's wardrobes, how much for liquor, and yes, the incredible sums that help the homeless, unemployed, uninsured etc. which m seems to care about so much. Just a thought-it could be distributed to potential new people at programs as something to consider...

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 22:53:25 (EST) From: Runamok Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Re: sir dave/ev charity status Message:

I have to figure, with his total belief in his own inherent superiority over the rest of the human race, that he wants this money so that he doesn't has to touch the interest from the mega-millions that he has already invested. The money he is looking for, in the jargon of the rich, is liquid capital (aka cash).

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 21:48:49 (EST) From: Marianne Email: None To: la-ex Subject: I like your style, LA - EX Message:

LA - EX: I love your posts. I haven't been around much due to a work deadline, but I've been taking a peek here and there to see what's happenin'. JW and I have exchanged several posts about getting info about EV finances (which we think have to be public record in CA). Maybe we can chat about that in the next couple of days... Do we have friends in common? I'm beginning to think so. Meanwhile, keep up the good work. Marianne

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 20:27:52 (EST) From: la-ex Email: None To: All Subject: The Barrrogginns!!! Message:

A friend of mine relates the following story about our favorite power couple, sean and barbara brogan.Sean, who used to be called 'Blockhead', because he's basically a fairly stupid man, and has a large head, is the brawn and barbara is the brains in their operation (although that's not saying very much). At an Amtext meeting this really simple, humble guy gets up and makes an extremely sincere request for the brogans to stop putting people in his territory. He says he loves his job, does it well, and will do it faithfully until the day he quits, at which time he will train a new buyer for his territory. He's a poor, simple guy who says this is the first thing that has ever worked in his life, and he just wants to do it faithfully without their interference. He drove to the meeting in a broken down pickup truck with a broken muffler, because he needed the money for his young daughter. He justs wants to serve and asks if he can keep his little area undisturbed. Sean brogan stands up, sneers at the guy and says'You know I've got a really big van for all my books. And when I get home, I go out on the town with my wife in our Mercedes (maybe it was a BMW), which is the same one that m has. And you know what?-I really can't hear you or your stupid pickup truck when I'm out on the town with my wife in the mercedes.' These are the idiots who run the show over at Amtext-they advise chuck nathan and literally do not give a damn about anyone else except their own profits and sucking up to the in-crowd around m. They will do anything to further those two purposes, including intimidation and threats to other buyers.

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Date: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 16:16:43 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: la-ex Subject: All Amtext stories are ***Best*** Message:

***Best of Forum*** I just love these Amtext stories and virtually all of them will be ***Best*** and I will update the Corporate Shenanigans to point to these posts. While Maharaji has changed his tune regarding Knowledge having the ability to make the world a better place and solving all your problems, there still might be that premie expectation that people with knowledge are more conscious and just plain old nice people. These Amtext stories, IMO, show that some premies are just plain old evil and greedy. Imagine trying to maintain that blissful state of detachment and at the same time screaming your lungs out. Also, consider that the people in power will use all the tricks in the Maharaji Manipulative Handbook to keep all the underlings under control. The Whirled of Knowledge - plain old sick!

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 22:20:41 (EST) From: Joey Email: None To: la-ex Subject: OMIGOD! Don't leave me Brogan-hearted!...Great story LA-EX...thanks again!! Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 05:28:51 (EST) From: Charlie Email: None To: Joey Subject: Joey and LA.. thanks! Message:

Joey and LA-EX, many thanks for this run of Amtext stories. Puts it all in the cold light of day. Keep it up.

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 20:45:38 (EST) From: Nick Danger, Third Eye Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Forget The Meek, The Blockheads Will Inherit The Earth Message:

Or have they already?

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 17:25:09 (EST) From: Grace Email: None To: All Subject: LOTU craziness Message:

Well, the LOTU video finally made it to me and what an eye-opener! I can't believe the craziness of the early premies. And what really bothered me was the press interview with Maharaji where a reporter kept asking him about the pie in the face beating incident and M just kept evading the question and basically refused to deal with it. I wish I'd seen that interview 10 years ago. It was definately one of those confirming I made the right decision moments for me. I never would have imagined M would be like that, totally self-interested and not willing to take responsibility at all. And Mata Ji (first time I'd ever seen her face) was a total trip. It was so clear from watching her that all she was interested in was getting all the material possessions she could out of the premies. They asked her why she had to have a Mercedes when a Chevrolet would get her back and forth just as well and her answer was everyone should receive Knowledge and they, too, would want to bring her the best of everything. It was just so darn blatant! This was also the first time I'd ever seen Bhole Ji and the song his band played sucked. I don't know what else they played or if it was any better, but I can't imagine premies liking it. The other thing I noticed was that the techniques were different than I learned. Music was done with the little fingers covering the eyes, not the way I learned it. Also, the order they were done in and the amount of time was different. They were also talking about putting your tongue way back in your throat and I learned just fold it back comfortably, not trying to reach anything. I kind of don't believe people could really get their tongue back that far, anyway. Anyone here able to roll it all the way back to the uvula? You all were a trip back then!

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Date: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 06:26:01 (EST) From: Charlie Email: None To: Grace Subject: Re: LOTU craziness Message:

Hi Grace, as a matter of fact I was always able to do the nectar technique fully. I had read about that yoga befor reeiving K and thought it sounded disgusting. When that turned out to be one of the techniques I was horrified. I was even more horrifie when I realized I could do it. It became a sort of party trick round my way. 'Hey everybody come and look at Charlie's tongue disappear up the back of his throut and into his brain'. It is my intention to make a poster displaying all the meditation techniques and place it on my kitchen wall. When premie friends come around to party over the next couple of months it should be a conversation stopper when they see it. Then there'll be a brawl!

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 19:17:16 (EST) From: Gerry Email: None To: Grace Subject: Re: LOTU craziness Message:

Heck, yeah! All it took was weeks of patient stretching and then I would use my finger to shove it all the way back and up. It's not that difficult and yielded...nothing. But I think it is the 'proper' technique according to old yoga practises. Not RawRat's watered down version. I thought Bhole's band sucked also, but didn't admit that in the company of saints (as we were called then.) Not my style but there were some really good premie musicians, I recall. Glad you enjoyed the flick, Grace. Maybe you can see why we were so crazy then and so pisssed and militantly against RawRat now.

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Date: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 00:57:28 (EST) From: Charles Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Re: LOTU craziness Message:

Hi Jerr! You mean you didn't cut that piece of skin under the front of your tongue? You were supposed to you know, just to make absolutely certain you could get your tongue up the back of your nose..... didn't those goof-balls tell you that in the knowledge session? It must have been missed out in yours. Maharaji always tells aspirants to cut it now. I guess AjW didn't know that either or maybe he did and that's why he tasted so much snot! Maharaji will have their guts for garters! Charles

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Date: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 01:20:16 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Charles Subject: Re: LOTU craziness Message:

Yes, I saw LOTU for the first time since the '70s just a few weeks ago. It was a shocker. I was fairly new to the game have rec'd K just a few months prior, but I had moved into a premie house and was doing service putting up posters at night with wheat paste in my city and even travelled to another city to do work for the passing through Soul Train. I can't believe we didn't get arrested as we were putting those posters on brand new light posts on the prominent downtown streets. My father worked downtown and we postered his street, too. Fortunately and too my dismay those posters did not survive as the city must have high pressured wash them off. The LOTU video is something else. I, too, was especially shocked at Maharaji's behavior at the press conference. Looking at him without the benefit of a room full of other adoring premies I saw Maharaji as an arrogant and frightened young boy. And his answer to the press regarding the assault of Pat Halley by Fakiranand who was rushed out of the country (See Roger's Weak Links and search for Halley) was 'yes, you should find out'. Interesting since we now know that high placed minions of Divine Light Mission helped get Fakiranand out of the country and WE suspect that Maharaji might have been involved. When I mentioned a few weeks ago that I had seen LOTU one of the premies suggested that it was biased and that's why it had the appropriate effect on me. However, I would say that if the sound was turned off or only pictures of Maharaji and the Holy Family were shown with absolutely no bias that I would feel the same. A picture is worth a thousand words.

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Date: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 23:33:58 (EST) From: bill Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Re: LOTU craziness Message:

Drekmaster, would you like a millenium poster that was plastered up all around cities and thier lamposts? bburke@rocketmail.com

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 01:01:08 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk To: All Subject: How to complain about Elan Vital Message:

If you do not agree with Elan Vital's status as a charity in Britain then please write a snailmail letter of complaint to the charity commission in the UK. Please give reasons for your complaint about Elan Vital's charity status and include any details and relevant facts and figures you may have. Please also include a name and address so that the Charity Commission can reply to you. Write your complaint about Elan Vital's charitable status and post it to: Investigations Division, The Charity Commission, Harmsworth House 13-15 Bouverie Street London EC4Y 8DP England The following is a repost of something I wrote a few weeks ago about Elan Vital's charity status: What charitable works are Elan Vital doing these days? Along with those worthy people shaking their tins outside supermarkets for Guide-dogs For the Blind, Cancer Research and the British Heart Foundation, how do Elan Vital rate amongst these worthy causes? Have a look at Elan Vital's record in the UK Charity Commission and then decide for yourself. Would you be happy if some rock stars held a benefit rock concert in aid of earthquake victims and after the concert, they decided it was better to give the money to Elan Vital rather than the earthquake charities, because the money would be put to better use by Elan Vital? Would you feel happy with that? Would you gladly give your excess small change to such a worthy cause as Elan Vital because you sincerely care about helping humanity? Do you see the suffering in the world and feel a warm glow because you know there is an all round charity, namely Elan Vital, which is going to help all these people who are suffering? I'm sorry, because I am being presumptous. Perhaps you are suffering. Perhaps you need help yourself and amongst the trials and tribulations that life hands out and the endless forest of difficulties and hardships which beset you, there is a beacon of hope for you in the charity called Elan Vital. Perhaps you feel a little less insecure, knowing that such a warm-hearted group of people such as Elan Vital, will help you in your hour of need and no matter how difficult things get, you will always have that reassuring shoulder of Elan Vital charity to cry on. It's good to know that the money you give to such a worthy cause as Elan Vital will go to help somebody who may be worse off than yourself or somebody who is in dire need. And if that person is you and if your need is great, how wonderful to know that help is always at hand. It's past my bedtime but the old DLM officially ended in 1995 and that was a different guru, not Maharaji who isn't a guru but an educational teacher. See the Divine Light Mission Charity Commission record and you can clearly see that it was Santa Claus or some guru Maharah who we were devoted to. Mind you, Santa's father was Shri Hans so perhaps it was another brother who we followed. Not much chance of definitely connecting the old DLM record with the Elan Vital one. They both have a Brighton phone number though and Shri Hans was Prem Pal Singh Rawat's Father. All this information has been gleaned from The Charity Commission in England & Wales You are welcome to contact them to tell them what you think about the charitable status of Elan Vital.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 22:41:55 (EST) From: LA-EX Email: None To: All Subject: gerry/follow the money Message:

I totally agree with about a media blitz in conjunctioin with public programs, although I think that one of the reasons that m cancelled his micro tour was that they sensed that there might be some sort of concerted effort to hassle him at those events. A very interesting package could be put together, consisting of lots of things from these sites, plus old pictures, quotes etc. Perhaps a forum page dedicated to answering some of the immediate questions that these new suckers might have that would be helpful for them to consider before signing up for the club.

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Date: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 06:46:27 (EST) From: Charlie Email: None To: LA-EX Subject: Re: gerry/follow the money Message:

Hi LA-EX, been enjoying your posts alot. At a recent meeting between Exes in a basement speakeasy in West London a few weeks ago we were discussing press releases etc. We have the skills and the will so I imagine something will soon be in production on this side of the pond.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 22:34:42 (EST) From: LA-EX Email: None To: All Subject: jen-michael's bad news for ratwot Message:

I was very interested in jen-michaels post about the insight seminars, and their being connected to other gurus and organizations. Are these the current trainings that m is putting on? Please let us know more about these trainings and post whatever you have in the forum, if you can. Does anyone else have info on the trainings?

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 04:39:28 (EST) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: LA-EX Subject: Insight seminars Message:

These are not the seminars organized by EV. These seminars are sold by many of EV's organizers, with no link to EV. It's been introduced to me as something that might be useful for me to enhance my personal experience. I'm 200% sure Rawat doesn't know about it. These guys are using their positions to do their business, and infiltrate Rawat's organization at the highest levels. I won't give names for the moment, by I'm sure lots of premies have been offered those seminars.

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 16:46:22 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: J-M, you and I both know Insight meditation works, so what's the big deal? (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 16:57:34 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Re: J-M, you and I both know Insight meditation works, so what's the big deal? Message:

Dep, Again could you explain what you mean when you say 'it works?' I looked at the website but information on what it actually is, is very sparce. So this is a meditation technique? Do you know more? Did you attend a seminar?

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 19:16:33 (EST) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: gerry Subject: details Message:

Have a look here to learn more about the guru who's infiltrated EV: More details on MSIA I remember what my feeling was when that premie introduced it to me: he was (still is very likely) one of the top managers here in France - I felt this guy was totally confused. But the whole organization was such a mess already!!

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Date: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 19:45:13 (EST) From: Runamok Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: details Message:

There are a lot of gurus discussed on that site, JM. The meditation practice is similar for all of them, and similar 'knowledge'. The whole thing is similar to 'EST' (erhard seminar training or later called the forum) whihch was popular among some premies for awhile. As were numerous other psychics or other smaller cult figures who made their way into Miragey's market share without making bigwaves about Mirage.

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Date: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 03:56:29 (EST) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: The REAL question: who's who's agent? Message:

I remember how it happened: We were actually in the midst of a national conference in Paris, during a tea/coffea break. I was having a chat with him, and this guy Claude A. pulled out a questionnaire with dozens of questions. He asked me to take some time to fill it, and then return it to him. I was feeling quite reluctant, as it didn't have anything to do with knowledge. I still did fill it, and then he pulled out another document, made some calculation, and showed me some weird chart showing what my character was etc. I wasn't feeling very good about this, and that was making me feel bad. And then he pulled another beautiful document on his seminars, showing how I would improve everything with those seminars. The document was a beautiful peace of new-age theories, with references to C.G. Jung etc you know that kind of BS. I didn't like that for some reason. And I kept the document. What I also clearly remember is that the guy was feeling totally at ease talking about this in the midst of all these organizors, and I was feeling like I was the only one there who wasn't into it already ! What a wierd feeling that was. What's obvious for me is that these guys make lots of money (and give a good % to Rawat) selling those seminars to premies who can afford it. What I'm not sure is if they know it's links to MSIA, and if they know what MSIA is about. Now that question arises: is Rawat John-Roger Hinkins' agent, or is John-Roger Hinkins Rawat's agent ?

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Date: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 19:47:54 (EST) From: Runamok Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: The REAL question: who's who's agent? Message:

OKAY isn't John-Rogers the guy who managed to sue David Lane into taking his (Lane's about JR) material off his webite?

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Date: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 23:19:43 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Re: The REAL question: who's who's agent? Message:

Run, I don't know about the Lane thing, but one of J-R's followers wrote the book 'What to do when your guru sues you' or something like that. It's on the web and makes fascinating reading. I'll try to find the link. Check out this link. There's a lot about these 'Insight' type seminars, Est, Forum, etc. Large group awareness training

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Date: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 05:21:43 (EST) From: Enough Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: The REAL question: who's who's agent? Message:

Gerry, Thanks, I especially liked the CHOOSING a PERSONAL GROWTH PROGRAM page and in particular the red flags. Lydell Mitchell

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Date: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 10:52:41 (EST) From: Gerry Email: None To: Enough Subject: How could I forget??? Message:

Oh yeah, that's the guy. Thanks! I felt like such a little weenie when I saw him around campus. He was huge, balding and looked about thirty years old. I did go to the hockey games, though. My best friend was a VietNam vet and he'd buy us a small flasks of rum which we'd sip in the stands...

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Date: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 11:22:08 (EST) From: Enough Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Re: How could I forget??? Message:

I went to Boston College and found the Hockey jocks to be even more dangerous than the football jocks.

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Date: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 01:02:47 (EST) From: Nick Danger, Third Eye Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: The REAL question: who's who's agent? Message:

Peter McWilliams is the author of that book.

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 12:29:09 (EST) From: Joey Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: Insight seminars Message:

Fascinating stuff JM. I'm really looking forward to the full story, especially finding out who are these people or this organization that has infiltrated m's world and recruited some of his top people for their cause. So whenever you're ready...I'm certainly looking forward to this one. BTW, I can't help but rejoice at the very thought of m's cult being infiltrated. The sense of poetic justice in this situation is just so wonderful....it really does bring a smile to the face:::))

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 12:50:04 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Joey Subject: Re: Insight seminars Message:

Why would premies need to attend these seminars if they have the Knowledge of Knowledges??? More new age crapola

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 13:29:09 (EST) From: Joey Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: Insight seminars...can't help but wonder Message:

Hey gerry, You don't waste any time , do you? Thanks for the link...i was just over there to check it out. BTW, i don't know if you remember, but our good friend Rob once identified himself as 'Rob Anderson', from Florida( If I'm not mistaken from West Palm Beach or something like that.) Now in the endorsement section of the 'Insight' site, there's an enorsement from a Rob Anderson of New Jersey: ... I would have to say that it is one of the best things I have ever done for myself. I continue to see significant positive effects daily in my professional and personal life from the Insight training. Robert Anderson, New Jersey Well I know there are probably more than a few Rob Andersons. Still,I just can't help but wonder. Hmm

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 13:12:49 (EST) From: Cynthia G. Email: cynthia@madriver.com To: gerry Subject: Re: Insight seminars: PRETTY CREEPY! (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 05:25:21 (EST) From: Enough Email: None To: All Subject: A Cult within a Cult(nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 17:20:46 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Cynthia G. Subject: Re: Insight seminars: PRETTY CREEPY! Why? (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 13:37:21 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Margaret Singer on Insight seminars Message:

Development of a New Age Training Program: A Case Example by Dr. Margaret Singer One personal development program quite popular with educated professionals was Insight Seminars. Some defectors from the organization have charged that Insight was used to recruit members to the background organization, the Movement of Spiritual Inner Awareness (MSIA). The founder of Insight and head of MSIA is John Roger Hinkins (although he rarely uses his last name), and his story is an interesting one. Hinkins graduated with a degree in psychology from the University of Utah in 1958. Subsequent to a postoperative coma in 1963, he claims he awoke to say he felt there were two people within him: a 'new' John and the 'old' Roger. For a while, J-R, as he called himself, sold his spiritual insights for three-dollar love offerings. Then he studied Eckankar, a New Age spiritual system, and declared himself the 'holder' of the Mystical Traveler Consciousness fighting the Red Monk (the devil). He is said to have considered himself in line with Jesus, Moses, Noah, and the like. Blending the old and the new, J-R created MSIA and gained quite a following. By the early 1970s, he was teaching seminars four nights a week. Later in the same decade, some of his devotees convinced him to adapt Lifespring training to MSIA's needs. (Lifespring has been one of the more popular LGATs since the early to mid 1970s, along with est and Actualizations. ) Working with a person who had been key in the development of Lifespring, J-R inaugurated his Insight training seminar with 120 MSIA ministers, who spread it first to MSIA's own church cells then to public seminars. J-R is reported to have called Insight both his 'ministry' and his 'money machine.' The seminars were a cross between a motivational course and an intense group encounter session. They eventually became an orgy of self-exploration, full-body hugs, and love letters to oneself. Guilt was purged, fantasy was indulged, and love was in the air. One exercise, the 'Cocktail Party,' has been described as a mass primal scream session in which people shout blunt, honest expressions at one another for about two hours nonstop, while assistants hand out vomit bags and exhort participants to keep going. The session evolves into a 'rebirthing' process, with peaceful guided imagery and calming music. Then participants act out their most anxiety-producing fantasies in front of each other. This is followed by 'cradling,' meant to let participants know that their new 'family' loves them unconditionally, despite their revelations of deep personal vulnerabilities. Lights dim and certain individuals are hoisted in the air and gently rocked to heavenly music, with everyone else beaming angelically into their eyes. Afterward, participants have attested to feeling 'awesome' and experiencing an emotional high that lasted for days. Some say they had to use special 'grounding' procedures just to carry on with normal life after this 'transcending' experience. At some point, a 'Gift of Giving' session was added to the five-day Insight seminar. During this session, it has been reported, some people were so euphoric they made out checks for $10,000 to the group. Numerous Insight graduates were said to have been recruited to MSIA, although the link between Insight and MSIA was not generally known to seminar attendees. In 1983, allegations of sexual abuse surfaced from two top aides. Some staffers said J-R used his spiritual authority to seduce them. According to reports, J-R discouraged marriage and ordered his personal staff to abstain from sex; but former devotees said that they were forced to engage in sex with J-R to maintain a 'smooth relationship with the Traveler.' Hinkins denied these allegations and no legal or law enforcement actions resulted. Because of these charges and other negative publicity, however, many devotees and Insight trainees became disillusioned and quit. Some described the period afterward as a 'spiritual shattering,' and in some cases, it took years for these former followers to patch up their psyches. Meanwhile, some staffers have remained loyal, continuing the Insight seminars. A recent annual brochure from the Insight Consulting Group (ICG) claims that over fifty thousand people have participated with Insight, and boasts worldwide expansion, noting seminar locations in twelve U.S. cities and London, Sydney, Toronto, and Vancouver. The partial list of clients includes Abbott Labs, Beth Israel Hospital, Campbell Soup, Lockheed, McDonnell Douglas, NBC, Pillsbury, Rockwell, the Social Security Administration, UCLA Graduate School of Management, and the United States Navy, and 'a host of small and medium-sized companies.' As recently as 1990, J-R's book, Life 101, was on the New York Times best-seller list.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 22:18:46 (EST) From: LA-EX Email: None To: All Subject: story time Message:

I thoroughly enjoyed your story about those two assholes, the Brogans. Every buyer hates their guts, as they constantly recruit new buyers to raid their territories. They are the epitomy of what's wrong with this whole thing-greedy,obnoxious,arrogant people who will do absolutely anything to get near maharaji and to suck up to him. They have threatened people physically who go into their territory, while they constantly raid other peoples territories. An interesting story about them from a meeting a few years ago, which have stopped happening because chuck nathan realized that too many stories were being shared that showed what a slimy bunch they are that run amtext. A guy stands up and says 'let's stop this buyer recruitment drive, where we give 5% commission to people like the brogan's for putting new buyers into our territories. Sean replies that he's only doing it make more money for m, that he doesn't do it for himself. The premie says great-why don't we start a policy where we give that 5% to Amtext directly, since you don't really want it for yourself anyway.Let it go directly to m. And by the way, how many buyers have you signed up? Barbara Brogan freaks out and screams at the top of her lungs for Sean not to say anything. Sean calls the guy an asshole and says he doesn't know anything about business. Chuck Nathan, who one non premie buyer described as some sort of reptilian deformity, stops the meeting and the issue is forgotten. Henry Reif, the original trainer for the buyers who ripped off dozens of premies by taking their commissions for new people they told him about, laughs to himself in the corner. Those four-nathan,henry and the brogans are the slimiest people I have ever known and it's unbelievable that they are close to m, although maybe it's not-birds of a feather flock together and this group sucks. I have lots of other stories about the brogans and the amtext ass kissers.

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 16:17:31 (EST) From: bill burke Email: None To: LA-EX Subject: LA-EX Message:

Hi LA ex, sean says the guy doesnt know anything about business? The guy was looking out for his interests, which is smart business for the guy. Catching someone in a business lie is also good business. Hardly qualifies the guy for the 'asshole' tag given by sean. You may not know but one guy who posts here was in amtext and then he told us some of the scam of it and then the fear and guilt of going against all his programming came back and now he is stuck as a premie posting here waiting for someone to help him by providing enough evidence for him to let go of his fears and become and ex again and recover his long lost freedom. the story of sean and his wife and the 'package' shows how much fear even the brogans are under. The more of this that sees the light of day here the better for many that read here and do not post. I myself read you post and did not respond but after a few hours I wanted to let you know about all those that would read your posts and stories and that there are definately many that will be helped by just the simple truth. Please type your memory here for all those that are trapped still that need a real dose of insider truth to be able to get the courage to leave all the lifetime of programming that has them in a cage. JM was the first instructor to step forward and do something about all this. He showed responsibility and courage of his own and he has done himself and others a great deal of good. You are invited to also step forward and help others. Thank you.

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 16:29:36 (EST) From: Joey Email: None To: bill burke Subject: To: bb Message:

You may not know but one guy who posts here was in amtext and then he told us some of the scam of it and then the fear and guilt of going against all his programming came back and now he is stuck as a premie posting here waiting for someone to help him by providing enough evidence for him to let go of his fears and become and ex again and recover his long lost freedom. bb, I'm really curious as to who this person is. In the year I've been posting on the forum there were only three people who've been involved with Amtext and were speaking about it here. Until LA-EX, of course...he(or she) would be the fourth. But up until last nite I've only been aware of myself, RDS, and Mark Appleman. So you got me curious.

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 22:32:15 (EST) From: bb Email: None To: Joey Subject: Re: To: bb Message:

Hi Joey, Wasnt it Nim who changed names a few times and was helpful about amtext? If I misread or get mixedup by the name changes, well that is possible. I had Nim as the amtext guy. Remember there was some uproar and battles between ...wasnt that YOU and I think Nim? Maybe that is where I get you two mixed? I figure you must be right in your post so tell me, what is Nim's connection to the premie world? Not amtext I guess, I didnt know Mark Appleman was an amtexter. Did you know Mark Aliamo?

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 22:47:14 (EST) From: Joey Email: None To: bb Subject: Nim = Joey, Joey = Nim Message:

bb, I certainly hope Nim was helpful about Amtext, because Nim = Joey, and Joey = Nim. We're one and the same:) And I've never posted here as a premie, and I've never felt guilty about saying what I had to say about Amtext. Re Mark Appleman, yes he did work with Amtext, both as a buyer in the field and in their office during the early 90's. So he claimed. Re Mark Alaimo, I can't recall meeting him, but I certainly know Susan, his ex, who is part of the Amtext management team. She works out of the amtext office in Miami.

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 22:59:57 (EST) From: bill=muddled memory Email: None To: Joey Subject: Re: Nim = Joey, Joey = Nim Message:

Dang Joey, I read the threads and start at the top and go down and I know I do mix up who said what. Sorry about the seeming lack of respect for you. I do read your posts and if I tried I probably could remember a lot of details of them. Just by typeing that I started already getting them flooding back. That is a good reminder that I should continue my sidework on typeing out what I saw and heard about the holy family and that era and move on to the later years before the synapsys start to misfire.

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 23:10:38 (EST) From: Joey Email: None To: bill=muddled memory Subject: No sweat bb....you're kewl with me! (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 23:38:21 (EST) From: bb Email: None To: Joey Subject: kewl Message:

I referred to your storytime in the response to LA's storytime. It fit, but at that moment I thought it was one of LA's stories. Goes to show how the blur manifests. It was a very revealing glimpse of the continued -greater than thou- lord trip rawat still uses to manipulate the subjects. I remember the blockhead when he lived in conneticut in 73. In saybrook I believe, there was a community there for a couple years. He wasnt dark then, the lord had yet to ruin him.

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 03:08:57 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: LA-EX Subject: ***Best of Forum*** Message:

God, I love this real life stuff with Maharaji spreading peace to the entire world and everyone has that beautiful, beautiful experience and there is love and everyone is conscious and respectful. Bullshit, the only person to get treated like a human being is Maharaji. Everyone else is an expendable doormat. ***Best of Forum***

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 23:27:37 (EST) From: Joey Email: None To: LA-EX Subject: Re: story time Message:

If you thoroughly enjoyed my story, let me tell you, I thoroughly enjoyed yours. It was great. Knowing the characters involved I could almost see it unfold before my very eyes. Except for Henry Reif. Can't recall that name. In any case I was in the Amtext fold as a premie buyer from 94-98. When did this meeting you speak of happen and around how many people were there in total? I gather you're talking about informal get togethers between premies who were involved in the business, and these meetings were cancelled because Chuck decided basically that the less people know, the better. Typical Chuck. Typical amtext. Typical cult. In any case I've unloaded just everything I know about Amtext more than once on this forum and told more than a few stories in my time (it's just about a year now since i've been posting on the forum.) So rock on LA-EX...I could always listen to more of those stories and you can tell us a little bit about yourself too if you want. BTW, if you scroll down below the printed message, you'll find 'Quoted Message' and below that 'Your Reply'. You can actually type out a post in 'Your Reply' if you want to respond to the post you're reading. I hope you find that helpful:)

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 06:42:21 (EST) From: Enough Email: None To: Joey Subject: Re: story time Message:

Henry Reif was a long time ashram premie. He was considered: a)a beautiful devoted brother b)an uptight asshole c)a pure joy to have around by the pot smokers in the back of the satsang hall because his self-importance and arrogant attitude were fun to watch.

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 14:15:18 (EST) From: Joey Email: None To: Enough Subject: To: Enough, re: Henry Reif Message:

Thanks for the 'description' of Henry Reif. As I told LA-EX, I never heard of the guy, let alone met him during my association with Amtext(94-98). Do you have any idea of when he was involved with amtext or if he still is? Naturally, I'm curious. Thanks again, Joey

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 14:38:52 (EST) From: Enough Email: None To: Joey Subject: Sorry, no Joey(nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 22:33:11 (EST) From: Gerry Email: None To: LA-EX Subject: Follow the money trail... Message:

I have lots of other stories about the brogans and the amtext ass kissers Let 'em rip, LA. Between you and Joey when can expose the sordid underbelly of the bloated, money grubbing guru and his suck up minions. These people need to be stopped. Let's step up our efforts to inform the tax and charity authorities. And let's organize protests at any public programs Pigman may have, if he dares stick his nose out in public again. Also, maybe we could get together privately to plan a media blitz and other effective strategies to blunt his recruitment efforts.

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 02:22:35 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Yes, I'll add these as testimonials in my Corporate section Message:

Go boys, go! Having worked also at a premie business I was surprised to see the old adage the asshole is the boss to be too true. Amazing when you consider everyone has Maharaji's sacred Knowledge and one of the objectives is doing it for Maharaji. Jeez, was I naive! All that time as either unpaid or way underpaid, no benefits, nothing.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 21:52:55 (EST) From: Joey Email: None To: All Subject: Story time! Message:

Let's go back in time, a time not too long ago...in fact it was December 1994, in Long Beach. Maharaji is speaking at one of the sessions and he's saying something like this: You know, there's really alot that isn't fair in this world. You can be in business and you have a little business, and along comes this big guy and just cuts you right down. It's not fair, but it happens. Now of course, when m was saying this it was in the context of his usual rap...the world is bad and the only place you can be safe is within and in your connection to Maharaji. Yet for myself, while I understood then and still do today the context in which he was speaking, I couldn't help but think to myself when I heard him say this, 'Is m talking about Amtext here?' Because you know he's always talking out of his personal experience...those people, places and situations that he's most familiar with, and as I've already made it clear I hope...he's certainly familiar with Amtext. Now,there's a history of dissension within the world of Amtext premies, and much of it revolves around encouraging people, even supporting them in a sense to enter into a business situation as book buyers, presumably of course to supply books to Amtext, only to later sponsor someone else to compete against them. In this situation the 'big boy' premie buyers who are doing all the sponsoring, benefit somewhat because they do get a sponsoring commission of 2% (which is less than what is available elsewhere, but heck, you know who gets the difference and who's benefit it's all for). This system of pitting premie against premie has worked to maximize the Amtext windfall going to m over the years, and so it stays. And fuck the dissension. The sensibilities of a few puny, whining premie book buyers can't be allowed to get into the way of maximizing profits for m. Never! Not in his world. Not at Amtext. That's just the way it is. That's why I couldn't help but wonder... was m somehow referring to Amtext. AND, I remember being impressed by what I THEN felt was a genuine kind of empathetic feeling on his part for the plight of these Amtext premies..the 'little guys', who have been screwed by Amtext's Let's do it ALL for the BOSS! approach, when it comes to the subject of competition, market saturation and so on. But was m really being sympathetic to these premies? Was he in fact even thinking of them when he spoke those words? I really don't know for sure, but in any case this is just part one of the story. For Part 2, we have to flash forward to Long Beach 95, and the following which was told to to me in part by Barbara Brogan who along with her husband Shawn, are the lead premie buyers for Amtext and also are are the only buyers, premie or non, who are part of the Amtext management team. (As I've described them before, Barbara is the brains and Shawn is more like the gofer boy of the team) They, therefore have a very prominent position in the world of Amtext. They've made alot of money with Amtext and of course they've given alot of it to m. Ok , on to part 2. __________________________________________________At Long Beach 95 two floors had been rented for m and his family at the Sheraton so they could have some place to hang out betweem sessions.(They would return to the residence at malibu at the end of the day.) The Brogans were staying at the Sheraton as well, as were the other well connected pams, and as Barbara explained to me, they had a very 'important envelope with a very important message inside' which they wanted to get to m. But there was a dilemna. The very important message was of course a sizeable financial contribution to m ( in fact this incident is apparently well known by pams and I've heard a couple of varying descriptuons of what was actually in the envelope....one source claimed it was a check for $100,000 and another claimed it was the actual registration papers for an Astin Martin Hansi was asking Daddy for) and they didn't want to have it spaced out by handing it over to the wrong person. Thus the dilemna. Who to trust with the envelope? Well as fate would have it, and it must have appeared to the Brogans that Maharaji himself was answering their prayers, they see Amar walking down the hallway, and they decide to go for it. They approach Amar and ask him if he would be so kind as to give the envelope to his father and Amar graciously accepts. Later that evening the Brogans start to have misgivings about giving the envelope to Amar. Afterall he's only a boy and what if he spaces out the envelope and it doesn't get to m, they begin to worry. They decide they're going to check with one of m's security people at the Sheraton if they did the right thing. They ask this guy about giving the envelope 'with a very important message' for Maharaji to Amar, and he lambasts them. 'How can you do that?! Don't you know that Maharaji doesn't want us to use members of his family as the post office. You've shown a lack of respect for his family, and also for Maharaji himself.' Well now the Brogans are totally freaked out. They wanted to PLEASE m, but now they're told that they most likely offended him. What if they actually DID offend him?! OMIGOD!! Its panic time and now its 2am in the morning and the Brogans can't sleep. They need some reassurance that they haven't offended m , and if they have, then they need to know what they can do about it. They knock on David Smith's door and wake him up. They tell him the story and ask him for his advice. Smith tells them that m is very strict in wanting premies to do things the proper way and that by giving the envelope to Amar, the Brogans had not done what m would want them to. He advises them to write Maharaji and ask him for his forgiveness. Now the Brogans are about to die. They can't take it anymore. It's gotten so bad for them that they now find themselves in the situation of having to write m and beg forgiveness. Oh Lord!! They decide to knock on Yoram Weiss' door to get his opinion. Yoram tells them to relax...Maharaji is very forgiving...not to worry, everything's going to be alright. The Brogans found out during the next morning's session that everything had in fact turned out ok, when m spoke: I was reading this beautiful message...these people had given Amar an envelope to give to me and he brought it to me...and it was just a beautiful message inside... (Now remember m 's empathy for the little guy during Long Beach 94? All of a sudden after mentioning the envelope and the 'beautiful message' inside, m now gets onto this track.) You know some people don't like rich people. They have this idea or that idea of what it is to be rich. But they really don't know. It's not easy to be rich. It isn't. Once you've made your first million , you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think. End of story

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 12:51:30 (EST) From: Runamok Email: None To: Joey Subject: Inscription time Message:

'You know some people don't like rich people. They have this idea or that idea of what it is to be rich. But they really don't know. It's not easy to be rich. It isn't. Once you've made your first million , you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.' That quote ought to be inscribed at some ex-entrance someplace!

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 23:26:25 (EST) From: bb Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Re: Inscription time Message:

I remember hearing that in the video. It stuck in my head and I thought about it and came up with some logic that helped it make sense to me. I was always willing to connect the dots in the gaps in his logic. The court of the lord is still a place of fear. I heard in the nineties about how some premie's, that were doing 'service' packing up the stuff from an event, had the van all packed and waited for the honcho in charge to come, HE showed up at 11:30 at night (after dinner with his freinds I bet) and proceded to make the premies UNPACK the truck so that HE could make sure the lords chair was packed just right. It was already right according to the story teller and one of the victims of the abuse of thier time and efforts. Then the truck could leave and so could the 'service' victims. Yurim wiess's comment that rawat is 'very forgiving' is typical of the tyrants game. Fear, and contempt, domination and bestowing of anger or 'forgivness'. It is definately a -best of- post.

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 15:47:34 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Re: Inscription time - DONE! Message:

I've placed this exemplary quote at the top of the main page at Roger's House of Maharaji Drek. Could we have not asked for and gotten a better Guru than Maharaji? Is he not the very best there is?

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 13:03:30 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Re: Inscription time Message:

I can't believe that idiot would actually say this in public! (well , I can really ...) You're right though, I deserves a prominent place on one of our sites. Poor, poor little misunderstood rich boy goobie.

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 09:46:19 (EST) From: Katie Email: None To: Joey Subject: Thanks, Joey (and LA EX, too) Message:

Hi Joey - That story about the AstonMartin or $100,000 check is one of the funniest M stories I've ever heard. Thanks for re-telling it. Especially the 'sympathy for millionaires' part. Love, Katie

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 12:39:06 (EST) From: Joey Email: None To: Katie Subject: Thanks Katie! Message:

Katie, Glad you enjoyed the story, although this is one I've never told on the forum before, but I may have related it to you and Brian on the phone. Take care, Love, Joey

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 05:18:26 (EST) From: Scrooge McDuck Email: The Money Bin To: Joey Subject: Re: Story time! Message:

So was he recommending Wealth ? Hullo ! I don't think so.

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 12:43:31 (EST) From: Mendl Mosskovitch Email: None To: Scrooge McDuck Subject: Re: Story time! Message:

Funny,I didn't read it that way. In any case, say hi to Mickey Moss:::))

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 02:36:01 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Joey Subject: ***Best of Fourm*** Message:

Oh, boy! That was great. Just sooper! Tells so much about the Cult of Maharaji, doesn't it? Maharaji has got to be in a bind if his income decreases. He is correct in that you need more money to protect your ass, I mean assets as you become a larger target. You need tax advisors, lawyers, security, storage for cars, planes, boats, etc., maintenance for homes, facilities, cars, boats and planes, gardeners, housekeepers, etc. Fortunately for Maharaji he gets a lot of that for FREE. However, he still needs to grease the wheels. I hope and pray that somehow our efforts and the normal attrition will negatively impact his bottom line and he will be forced to liquidate some of his precious assets to make ends meet. Gosh, can you imagine that? Maharaji suffering like us normies. Actually, I suspect that many of us are worse off than most normies because we lost so many years listening to Maharaji.

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 13:58:49 (EST) From: Joey Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Re: ***Best of Fourm*** Message:

Rog, Thanks for 'enshrining' this post in the House. I believe I first told this story to Jim over the phone some 8 or 9 months ago, and he encouraged me to post it right away. He even suggested a title for it, ' The gift, the giver and the correct postal route' I was also toying around with this title, 'The paranoia of giving' Of course had I titled it 'what motivates m?', I believe that also would have been appropriate. In any case, I couldn't make up my mind , so I just decided to call it...'story time!' Again, I'm glad you enjoyed it and thanks for your support!

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 15:36:01 (EST) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: All Subject: What the heck is going on? Message:

Hey, I have been trying to respond to some dog with a badge and no pants on a thread below, and none of my text appears. 'sup wid dat? Here is my response to Deputy Dog's 'Mickey, John 3 paraphrase...' post below: Your paraphrase is incorrect. You quoted Jesus as saying 'You must die to be reborn.' It does not say that anywhere in John 3 (or in any of the canonical gospels, for that matter). In Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus in John 3, Jesus tells Nicodemus that one must be 'born from above.' A few verses later Jesus says that one must be born of water and the spirit, and then a little later that one must be born of the spirit (so which IS it anyway?). Too many people twist the Bible to bolster their arguments. I have seen Christians, New Agers, and Premies misquote things often, and since many people have no idea what Jesus is supposed to have said according to the Gospels, they can get away with their mis-information. I decided a while ago to challenge people who do this. I have given up on SHP, he is too obtuse to even admit that he is wrong when confronted, but if you are going to play 'quote Jesus and the Bible' here, either play by the rules, quote correctly, or I will challenge your veracity.

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 16:29:27 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: On being born again Message:

Mickey, Here is what Ram Dass says about being born again. My paraphrase was very much influenced by him. And it makes sense doesn't it? In order to be born again you first have to die. 'Very often people report to me that meditation has brought an emptiness into their life. Everything seems meaningless. It takes great faith to ride through such heavy periods of spiritual transformation. It is sad to see one's story line turn into empty form. The dark night of the soul is when you have lost the flavor of life but have not gained the fullness of divinity. So it is that we must weather the dark time, the period of transformation when what is familiar has been taken away, and the new richness is not yet ours. As Christ said, one must truly die and be born again.' Ram Dass As far as comment 'being born from above' goes, is Nicodemus talking about a space station? I strongly suspect he might be talking about higher consciousness. And what does it mean to be 'born of the spirit?' Spirit is a Latin word meaning breath. In the New Testament they are always talking about dying to the Flesh and living in the Spirit. Are you following me here Skeezicks? My paraphrase IS correct and I AM wearing pants. Jesus came here to teach an experience of transcendence not just to tell people to be nice to each other. He said, 'God is spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.' John 4:24 So end of story. Dep

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 17:40:20 (EST) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Re: On being born again Message:

Dear Dog, then perhaps you should change your quote to 'Ram Dass said Jesus said' instead of 'as Jesus said.' I know all about Jesus and being born again, but just because Ram Dass (a well known Biblical scholar) said Jesus said something, it is not so. My point was that Jesus did not say one must die to be born again. Just like SHP, you ignore your mistake, and try to preach new-age hooey. Jesus talked about bringing about the Reign of God, a world in which there is no hunger, no lonliness, no dispair, no peverty, not illness. You are right; he did not come to tell people to me nice to each other. Your paraphrase is still incorrect as he never said 'one must die to be reborn;' Ram Dass said that. I really don't care what you are wearing; I was referring to the cartoon dog.

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 23:03:48 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Re: On being born again Message:

Dear Mickey, Okay, Jesus did not say one must DIE to be born again but didn't he imply it? Jesus did say you must be born again. Doesn't that imply that you have to die to something to be born to something. You can't get to second base if you keep one foot on first. I admitted in my post that a little Ram Dass got in there. And since when is talking about the Bible the same as preaching new-age hooey? Jesus said 'the Kingdom of God is within you.' Luke 17:21 Not some future Reign of God. He's talking now. 'He that findeth his life shall lose it; and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.' Mathew 10:39 'Except ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.' Matthew 18:3 'Verily I say unto you, That that there be some of them that stand here which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.' Mark 9:1 For Christ also has suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit. 1 Peter 3:18 Admit it! Being 'born again' means being born in the spirit. I'm sorry. I thought you were referring to me and not the cartoon dog. Dep

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Date: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 23:47:36 (EST) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Re: On being born again Message:

Deputy Dog, Thank you for admitting that Jesus did not say 'you must die to be reborn.' THAT was what I was calling you on. I disagree that one must die to something to be reborn to something; it seems to me that you are trying to infer that Jesus was making some reincarnation reference. If I am not reading your inference correctly, I apologise, but it is my experience that premies often try to turn Jesus into some Perfect Master so that they can add legitimacy to their cult. Yoganada did the same thing; if one comes to the West and adds Jesus to one's pantheon, it adds supposed legitimacy to those raised in the Judeo-Christian tradition. I will tell you straight out that I am a priest and that I will not agree with this 'one in a line of Perfect Masters' stuff because I don't believe in the idea of the Perfect Master; I left that when I left the cult. To take the Bible to bolster such an argument is preaching New Age hooey, in my opinion. You have been quoting from the King James Version of the Bible. Modern versions, taken from the earliest sources, translate Luke 17:21 as 'the Kingdom of God is among you.' The reference in Matthew 10:39 was written for an audience that was facing martyrdom; they really were going to die, it is not a metaphysical reference. Mark 9:1 is also a reference to the coming martyrdoms. Perhaps you are unaware of the historical context and the audiences for whom the Gospels were written, which would explain why you don't see the obvious references to the martyrs of the first and second centuries. Yes, Jesus talked about repentance and being reborn. It is my opinion that he was talking about a change of heart which would lead one to work to bring about the Reign of God. Jesus was eschatological in his thinking, as was the early church. I have the impression that you see the Reign of God or Kingdom of God as some sort of mystical reference, while I understand it to be a means of changing the world.

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Date: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 09:25:57 (EST) From: dead bill Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Re: On being born again Message:

The emptyness that ram dass and other meditators get is not because it is a 'gap' that is empty before the 'divine' hits. That is but human for ramdass to try to explain it like he did because he himself has no other way to see it because he is bound by eastern thinking. He is stuck like premies always waiting for the 'oneness' to hit and the 'infinite bliss' and 'that experience' to hit. ram dass had a freind that he knew in india, the guy was named bhagvan das by some guru. well, bhagvan was hailed by ramdass as being 'what I'm talking about!' bhagvan wrote a book last year. I went to the store and read it there. Clearly he states that he got NOWHERE until one day after (according to him) 100,000 pranams, he went into some experience never to go there again. Well, could all the bowing have just shorted out his brain? Or could god have had some mercy on this idiot who was trying to get to Cleveland by bowing in a corner and just gave him an experience in spite of the fact that that is not done usually because it gives people the wrong idea that it is a route TO something when it is not? Whatever, for all the guy's 'letting go' he managed to abandon his pregnant wife and 4 yr old daughter to the wind and went off to spend some more years trying to accomplish this mythical attainment. Well, read the book and see what a total zealot engaged in all the eastern thinking and meditation gets as a reward. A big fat incoherent zero.

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Date: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 10:58:00 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: dead bill & Mickey Subject: Bill & Mickey - On being born again Message:

dead bill, I've read the book. The guy was named Bhagvan Das by Ram Dass's guru Neem Karoli Babba. Bhagvan Das made some rather unfortunate choices in his life, that plus an alcohol problem didn't help. I think at one point he had sex with three women in one day. He was definitely mis-using the energy he received in meditation. According to Ram Dass, 'as you receive greater energy during meditation, it carries over to the times you are not meditating, when your old habits of mind to which you are attached still hold sway. The temptation is to use these new energies to strengthen your old habits, to use the meditative energy in the service of your ego.' That's what happened to old Bhagvan Das. He apparently learned his lesson though. His life from India to selling enclyclopedias, to being a born again Christian, to wealth, to poverty, is definitely an interesting read. Dep

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Date: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 00:03:41 (EST) From: bill Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Re: Bill & Mickey - On being born again Message:

Your right about rammed ass's guru having that name, although he also went by the name maharaj ji. I heard a tape by RD during the late 80's and his voice was flat and steady and blah. The ideas were piling up and these days I can hardly listen to someone speak for a couple minutes without my attention wandering elsewhere unless they are into what they are saying. Here at the forum I find most really feel what they are saying. I certainly have been hopefully open as many have to there being 'larger' possibilities in regards to inner stuff but the evidence is not there in those that try the hardest! And also, the underlying premise that the oneness is available for my taking seems to have no one as the example standing anywhere to show me that SEE! IT IS POSSIBLE! Just take that step and you CAN do it! I certainly believed the stuff was available, but alas alak, it doesnt seem to have been set up that way in reality! It WAS possible that it COULD have been that way, but it isnt the way it all works! Seems like it SHOULD be kind of like that, but just because the thinking is off, doesnt mean that the reality stinks and is less as a result! I HAD to try and adjust to reality as it really seems to be in order for me to find firm footing so I could move from the eastern dream to what looks more likely as the reality. No offense, it was no picnic!

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Date: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 13:49:56 (EST) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Re: Bill & Mickey - On being born again Message:

Gee dog, I guess that I won't be able to get through to you; you seem as thick as SHP. I will be as clear as possible: I do not accept Ram Dass as a biblical scholar, I do not accept Ram Dass as a teacher. I read Be Here Now back in the 1970's and it help propel me towards my mind-numbing ignorance as a Premie. I understand that for you and SHP and others with the 'knowledge of knowledge' it is difficult to believe that those who actually read the Bible in Hebrew and Greek may actually know what it says; it is much easier to believe that someone who took way too much acid has a clearer understanding than those who actually study the Hebrew and Christian scriptures. And of course, you are a mystic and I am not, so we really won't be able to communicate very well unless we define our terms. When I read the Hebrew and Christian scriptures, I study the historical, political, and social context of what I am reading. You try to find verification that eye-ball squeezing and breath monitoring brings enlightenment. You know, I once was a premie, too, and I know very well how many premies like to 'interpret' scriptures, but I do not accept your premise. You read Ram Dass and I will read Moltman, Borg, and Crossan.

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Date: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 22:32:06 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Re: Bill & Mickey - On being born again Message:

Sorry Mick, I guess I prefer to look into the book of life rather than a book of concepts. And how did those early Christians manage without the Bible? Hmmmm. Maybe they were thick. So if you don't mind I'll just continue on in my 'mind numbing ignorance.' and you can continue on studying stuff that happened two thousand years ago in another culture. In closing I find it weird that you call yourself a Pharisee considering what they did. I guess what we have here is a difference of opinion. You get back to those books. Ram Dass is a psychologist by the way. Dep

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Date: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 22:51:39 (EST) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Being re-bored Message:

Hahaha I haven't heard the term 'concepts' since I left the cult!!! Okay, dog, you do realize that the early Christians used the Hebrew scriptures and that in the very first years worshipped at the temple, and after its destruction, the synagogues, so they did manage with a Bible, as it were. Of course the poor dears didn't have Be Here Now; que lástima! I notice that you are using the same smug spiritually arrogant 'I have the knowledge of knowledge' attitude that SHP uses. We have more than a difference of opinion, we have a difference in which sources we respect and how we think things through. I would not consider using a Bible scholar's critique of the Bhagavad Gita to understand Hindu ideas, but you will quote Ram Dass's misquote of Jesus and hang on to it for dear life while inferring that I am somehow less spiritual than you because I have read the scriptures for myself. I actually study a subject while you are happy to use the work of someone with no experience in the discipline. I don't discuss psychology because it is not my field, and biblical scholarship is not Richard Alpert's field. I call myself Mickey the Pharisee because Mili called me a Pharisee a couple years ago. I thought it was funny and adopted the title. The Pharisees saved Judaism after the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, or didn't Ram Dass mention that in his book? As far as the book of life is concerned, I'll bet that my life is much more full and happy than yours; I actually enjoy studying and using my mind.

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Date: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 00:03:59 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Re: Being nausated! Message:

Mick, The four Gospels were not written until a hundred years after Christ died. Pauls letters were not in mass circulation until about fifty years after. These are Christian scriptures. Ram Dass did not misquote Jesus. And what makes you think I haven't read the scriptures for myself and enjoy using my mind. Why maybe I've even been to university! You say you are a priest. Well you may have been able to push my Irish ancestors around but those days are over. I think for myself and I trust my own experience. Anyone who denies that the Kindom of Heaven is within is an a misguided idiot. How you can be a priest and ignore the inner directed aspects of Christ's message is a complete mystery to me. You know what Mickey, I don't like you and I will have nothing more to do with you. I think you're an asshole. Dep

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Date: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 00:11:33 (EST) From: bill Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Re: Being Message:

I hear and have even heard Mickey say that the gospels were written long after, maybe I misunderstand, but I tend to think that the theory that they were written later is wrong. They must have been written by the guys in thier lifetimes right? In order to actually BE written by them. I saw an english shakespearian actor do the full gospel of Mark, I had never read Mark. I though it made quite an interesting story. Is it the best gospel? What DOES gospel mean anyhow?

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Date: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 00:17:47 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: bill Subject: Re: Being Message:

bill, The gospels were spoken for many years before being written down. I prefer Matthew, and gospel means god's-spell. I wonder what that bozo Mickey would make out of 1 Timothy 1:17? Dep

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Date: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 08:03:21 (EST) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Re: Being Message:

bill, our little canine friend is incorrect; gospel is the English translation of the Greek 'evangelion' which means 'good news.' The three synoptic gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke may come from an oral tradition, or at least Mark did. Mark is the earliest gospel. It is believed that the authors of Matthew and Luke used Mark and another source, called 'quelle' or Q to write their gospels. The gospel of John comes much later. It is important to remember that the gospels were written for different communities and that they are not supposed to be understood as accurate histories of the life of Jesus the Christ. Also, chances that the apostle Matthew was the actual author of that gospel are slim. I Timothy 1:17: 'To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.' Taking the verse alone, it is a hymn of praise. Taking it in context with the verses before it, Paul is establishing is christology of Christ as King. What else would one make of this verse? I wonder what the dog makes of that passage?

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 10:12:28 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: The blind leading the blind Message:

- Hey Numb Nuts, So it's a hymn of praise is it? A song! It couldn't be an experience could it?

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Date: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 18:15:33 (EST) From: bill Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Being Message:

The commandment to 'love god yourself and others' has been worth its wiegh in gold so to speak. It has influenced the behaviour of humans and for the better. We would have fought over things anyway even if there was no religious things to fight over. Every where I look I see contention and competition. Struggle keeps us occupied and we MUST think is fun the way we are so prone to it. Would we really be happy with 1000 years of peace anyway? What WOULD we do?

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Date: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 00:31:45 (EST) From: bill Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Re: Being Message:

well, that is not reassuring! People are so prone to having memories that wax and wane to say the least! That is a lot to remember. I remember a lot of what went on during my life, I remember sentences by the lord of the universe, but not two or three paragraphs or more! Exact. Well, lets see what MIckey says about the known records on that.

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Date: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 01:28:34 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Amen, Thank God we have Mickey Message:

Yup, when I was a premie in the early days I quickly became a Bible Scholar. Of course, I didn't have a clue. Yet, premies today still attempt to mix in the Bible to attempt to bolster their claims of Maharaji's divinity. HE'S NOT, DON'T YA KNOW! EVEN HE SAYS HE'S NOT.

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Date: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 11:02:45 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Re: Amen, Thank God we have Deputy Dog Message:

Rog, Please read the posts. There is nothing in them about bolstering M's divinity. I think it might be time for you to adjust the medication. Dep

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Date: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 15:02:18 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: GET REAL! Message:

First consider my point about premies being Bible scholars outside of the context of thread. We incorrectly used Bible quotes to facilitate the image that Maharaji was Lord of the Universe. Second, when considering what I said in context of the thread I contend that the same is true - Bible quotes are used to make Maharaji or his Knowledge legitimate. It's bogus. Always was and always is. You need to step outside of the premie mindset to realize and understand that and I know that such is impossible.

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Date: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 22:46:39 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Re: GET REAL! Message:

Roger, I'll forget about the Bible if you will. In my and Alan Watts's opinion many Christians treat the Bible is an idol. People worship the concepts in it rather than the experience of Spirit. The more subtle idols are concepts not idols of gold. People who search the scriptures daily looking for life are practicing a subtle form of idolatry. The temple of God is the human body, that's where God lives. But then again maybe I'm thick to understand how complicated it really is. Dep

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Date: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 23:47:10 (EST) From: bill Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: catdog Message:

My two youngest want to play catdog sometimes, that would be where I am 'gorilla monsoon' and they are cat and dog. The one will jump on me and say ME and I say OW! and that is cat's wrestling trick and dog goes DOG POUND! when he jumps on me. If they get much bigger the gamewill have to stop. The tussles with MIckey are good if only in that it gets him to talk more.

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Date: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 00:11:45 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: bill Subject: Re: catdog - bill, why would I want to hear more from that idiot? (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 05:09:48 (EST) From: Catweasel Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Re: catdog - bill, why would I want to hear more from that idiot? (nt) Message:

To whom are you referring my canine friend?

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Date: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 00:26:53 (EST) From: bill Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: starry night Message:

Where were you AND MIckey when I was wrestling with what is the reality? I was muttering in a corner of the forum for quite a while trying to weigh the options and figure out which faction was right. DNA, intelligence sprang from matter, The non-self concious oness Or There is a self aware part of the conciousness that has response options and...ect. It certainly was heavy for me to run into the possiblity that maharaji was not the ultimate ruler. And then to have to flounder around to find some ground to touch down on. Excuse me if I missed it, but what is your latest thinking on the way it works here.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 18:56:52 (EST) From: Mili Email: milivoi@yahoo.com To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Re: What the heck is going on? Message:

Howza been, Mickey? I've been wanting to ask you for your take on the Dead Sea Scrolls - was Jesus an Essene, in fact? Should we pick off from where they left off? Please shed some light. - Mili

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 20:25:21 (EST) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Mili Subject: Re: What the heck is going on? Message:

Hi Mili, hows tings? I don't think that Jesus was an Essene, in fact, we don't know for sure if the community at Qumran was actually Essene. I have read arguments for an Essene Jesus, but they were a community who had separated themselves from the Jerusalem Temple Cult (in this context cult means worship or liturgy, not eye-ball squeezing tongue-swallowers) and even the local synagogues, while Jesus interacted with the Temple authorities, Pharisees, Saducees, and the local synagogues. Actually, Jesus may have been a Pharisee or trained as a Pharisee as far as his method of teaching and his respect for the Law. I think that John the Baptist may have been an Essene or at least educated by them due to his living in the desert and baptizing people. As far as his wardrobe and diet are concerned (J the B, I mean), it certainly wasn't very Essene. Now, I do not claim to be up on the latest scholarship concerning the Dead Sea Scrolls, but I do know that they don't carry any secret garlic diets or the secret to the day of the Final Judgement, no matter what it says in the Weekly World News or the Globe. What do you know about Essenes and the Dead Sea Scrolls? Have you read any of the translations of the scrolls? I haven't read many yet.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 15:40:45 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Re: What the heck is going on? Message:

Mick, none of my text appears Same thing happened to me.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 16:01:40 (EST) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: What the heck is going on? Message:

Hi Gerry! So what the heck is it? BRIAN!!!!! WHAT THE HECK IS GOING IN HERE??? By the way, gerry, how are things with you? We haven't talked in a while, what with my traveling about and not having time to visit the Forum. I hope that you are doing well, and keep fighting the good fight! Padre Mickey

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 20:31:54 (EST) From: gerardo Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Re: What the heck is going on? Message:

Hola Padre! Estoy haciendo muy bien. Algunas preocupaciones de la salud como de costumbre. Sí, la lucha continúa. Es a veces algo seca y vacía. Quisiera ayudar a alguna gente menos afortunada de una manera más directa. Estoy pasando a través de cambios y estoy recuperando mi empathy e idealismo de mi juventud. Nada se parece de mérito. Deseado lo más mejor posible a usted y a su familia.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 21:08:16 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: gerardo Subject: Re: What the heck is going on? Message:

Hola Mickey Y Gerry, Vi una imagen asombrosa de Jesús en una película. Él estaba parado con la mirada de la compasión pero con sangre en su cara de la corona de espinas. El hombre que él miraba era justo un hombre con muchos incidentes que estaba en dolor y el hombre pidió a Jesús su ayuda. Éste era un cuadro muy dramático de hoy. Creo que si sufrimos y podemos entonces aguantar ayudamos a la gente. Le ayudamos de muchas maneras. Esto es una historia grande. Espero que este español sea aceptable. Usted puede contestar en inglés.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 20:48:23 (EST) From: Padre Miguel Email: None To: gerardo Subject: Re: What the heck is going on? Message:

Hola gerardo, muchas gracias por tu mensaje. Yo escrito y hablo espanol poco y muchas palabras yo no entiendo. Así, práctica, práctica, práctica y habla, habla, habla. Hasta luego.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 17:42:22 (EST) From: Katie Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: What cave did YOU crawl out of, Mickey :) ! Message:

Sorry for the title, Mickey - I just couldn't resist. Brian hasn't been the forum administrator since last summer. You can e-mail the present forum admins (an anonymous, rotating, group of people) at the address above. I don't know what's causing the empty posts (I saw that too), but there are a lot of them on here today. I always suspect a Paradise problem first, though - if you read their help forum you can see that they have a few glitches in their message list programming (posts appearing under the wrong names, or not appearing, or in the wrong threads...). I read your post about Panama on the Only Exes forum - it sounds great. Say hi to Mona and Anne and good luck with the espanol! Love, Katie

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 20:13:56 (EST) From: Mickey the uhm, ahh, err...forgetful Email: None To: Katie Subject: Re: What cave did YOU crawl out of, Mickey :) ! Message:

Sheesh, Katie! At least I didn't call for Scott Perry. I will e-mail the present rotating forum administrator (is that how Paradise powers things, with rotating administrators?). I apologise to Brian.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 14:03:44 (EST) From: Gerry Email: None To: All Subject: Guerillas in our midsts Message:

What if someone came here looking for some conversation about Maharaji's cult? Mostly they'd find tomfoolery by someone named Cerebus and sickening drivel from some fruitcake named Shp. They'd see no serious discussion, only endless diversions of bullshit. But that's the point, right, premies? We need a little more administrative response to all the garbage and the pestilent presence of recalicitrant believers. Anybody know the link to Dave's new premie free forum? This place is startin' to smell like sheep shit- or worse- again.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 15:49:27 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Gerry Subject: 100% Agreement - Delete Cerebus Message:

Indeed! The Forum is being hijacked by just a few idiots. I have decided that I will only post 'Isn't that nice' to Shp. Cerebus or whatever name he uses needs to be deleted on the spot.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 17:35:08 (EST) From: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Roger eDrek Subject: Re: 100% Agreement - Delete Cerebus Message:

It's 'C-E-R-B-E-R-U-S'. Brush up on your Greek mythology, creep. And I think you're just jealous because he is more web-savvy than you are.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 17:50:57 (EST) From: Charlie Email: None To: Mili Subject: Sexy Milli!! Message:

Milli, you're looking so sexy on your homepage. What manner of beast are you trying to attract?

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 18:50:48 (EST) From: Mili Email: milivoi@yahoo.com To: Charlie Subject: Re: Sexy Milli!! Message:

Sexy is easy. Taming the shrew is a different story... ;o)

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 17:43:20 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Mili Subject: The peanut gallery chimes in Message:

Sorry, I'm not hip to Greek mythology. I was in juvenile detention for manslaughter back then.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 20:29:31 (EST) From: Ned Kelly Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Well, You Dont Have To Comment Roger (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 18:53:58 (EST) From: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Roger eDrek Subject: Re: The peanut gallery chimes in Message:

Yeah, that's what I figured. First I piss off a jerk in British Columbia and then another one in Ozzieland. Is the Internet fun, or what!

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 14:56:07 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Gerry Subject: The way to the ex-premie only forum Message:

The way to get to the 'Only ex-premies' forum is to go to the ANYTHING GOES forum and click on the link to the new forum at the top of AG. Alternatively, you can click here to go to the Only ex-premies forum

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 15:13:15 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Cerby Subject: Re: Guerillas in our midsts Message:

What program are you using to change your browser settings?

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 14:28:02 (EST) From: Charlie Email: None To: Cerby Subject: Re: Guerillas in our midsts Message:

You say you're not a premie so why are you so desperate to hang about here. What sensible coversation are you wanting to have? This forum has a purpose to which you are not making any useful contribution. Why hang out here? Be thankful that you've never had any experience of cult activity and move on. The conversation you are looking for is somewhere else. Try your local bar or pub.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 14:44:16 (EST) From: Katie Email: None To: Charlie Subject: Re: Guerillas in our midsts Message:

I have to agree with Charlie in that, if someone doesn't want to talk about Maharaji or related subjects, this forum isn't the place for them. (I recommend the 'Anything Goes' forum for that!) Of course, there are occasional off-topic posts on here, but most of them are related to Maharaji or life after Maharaji in some way. I guess I am not clear, Cerberus, on your purpose for being here. I would tend to assume that you are a premie because you said that the negative posts about Maharaji in the forum archives really make you angry. (I cannot see how this would matter to anyone who wasn't a premie or ex-premie, or at least an aspirant.) Anyway, I did answer your 'issues' post below. Take care, Katie

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 14:19:09 (EST) From: Katie Email: None To: Cerby Subject: Forum introduction Message:

Hi Cerby - FYI, following is part of the text of the Forum Introduction from Forum III (our old forum). I believe that most of this is still applicable to Forum IV. (Basically, as I'm sure you know), if you are a premie, and you post on the forum, you're probably going to get flamed, whether you deserve it or not. I have seen people get around this problem by refusing to answer flames or non-civil posts - it seems to work fairly well.) The Forum is an unmoderated collection of ongoing threaded discussions where ex-premies, current premies, and non-premies express their views on anything and everything related to following Maharaji, practicing Knowledge, and life afterwards. We always welcome new participants to the Forum, but please read the following before you enter. We advise that you read the messages for a few days before you begin posting. This will give you a general idea of what people are talking about, and of the style of communication commonly used here. If you wish to post anonymously, pick a pseudonym, and stick to it. This will prevent confusion, and help people get to know you. If you are a current premie, be aware that most of the people who post on the Forum are ex-premies, and that some ex's will be expressing negative feelings towards Maharaji and his organization. If you post pro-Maharaji messages, you may be met with anger or ridicule. Be prepared for this, but don't let it deter you from expressing your own views and feelings here. Many of the Forum participants have been posting here for some time, and have gotten to know each other fairly well. Sometimes participants will make references to people or situations you are unfamiliar with. Don't be afraid to ask for an explanation. Because many of the people who post have gotten to know each other over time, they often tease, insult, or argue with each other. As in any group of people, a person's best side may not be the side that they are currently showing in their latest post. Human relations are a dynamic condition rather than a static one and are subject to change over time - for the better or the worse. Try to be reasonably civil when posting messages on the Forum, but be aware that 'flaming' does occur here at times. We actively discourage making violent threats of ANY kind, or posting under another person's name or pseudonym. Any posts that violate these simple rules may be deleted or edited by us. Repeat offenses will result in a block being placed on the orignating service provider's IP address, causing posts submitted from that location to be discarded. If you choose to participate in the Forum, you must post responsibly. Take care, Katie

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 15:32:43 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Cerby Subject: Something rings false about you. Message:

You give me the creeps. And you may very well be Rob. I will not read or respond to you any more.

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Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 15:31:40 (EST) From: Katie Email: None To: Cerby Subject: Re: Forum introduction Message:

Hey, I went to that site once and I don't even GO there anymore because of all the cookies and legal stuff. I honestly don't understand why they put that on there - it's bound to turn aspirants off, and there really isn't any secret information on those pages. (I also don't much care for the way Maharaji designs his pages, but that's just aesthetic. His colors are very muddy.)

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