Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum
Archive: 12
From: Sat, Nov 20, 1999 To: Fri, Dec 10, 1999 Page: 1 Of: 5


Enough -:- Irrelevant Forum IV -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 06:44:34 (EST)
__ Runamok -:- Re: Irrelevant Forum IV -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 16:11:56 (EST)
__ __ Katie -:- Re: Irrelevant Forum IV -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 16:15:34 (EST)
__ __ __ bb -:- Re: Irrelevant Forum IV -:- Fri, Dec 10, 1999 at 00:20:02 (EST)
__ Runamok -:- Re: Irrelevant Forum IV -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 16:06:20 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- Rawat's programming -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 13:03:45 (EST)
__ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Rawat's programming -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 10:13:39 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- It's 'lose', for God's sake. Not 'loose' (nt) -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 12:02:45 (EST)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- You mention God? I meant loosen, it was a typo (nt) -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 20:02:44 (EST)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- 'loose' and 'lose' - a recurring theme -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 13:25:37 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- It's 'lose -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 12:01:55 (EST)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Jim please finish off the quotation marks, it's 'lose' not 'lose (nt) -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 20:21:55 (EST)
__ __ Susan -:- Deputy Dog -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 11:38:07 (EST)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Deputy Dog -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 20:19:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- Ah you Dog you -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 21:18:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Doggy Ji -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 21:28:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- So no sex then Susan? ( nt) -:- Fri, Dec 10, 1999 at 08:37:46 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- BRAVO!!! GREAT POST! LOLOL (nt) -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 12:41:15 (EST)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- So what, dep? -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 10:21:29 (EST)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: So what, dep? -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 10:28:30 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Paul -:- Re: So what, dep? -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 11:15:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Gregg -:- Re: the unexamined lies -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 11:43:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Miche -:- Ok, and do you ever think? -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 10:31:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Ok, and do you ever think? -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 11:09:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- So what about the Rawat's theories? -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 11:50:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: So what about the Rawat's theories? -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 20:00:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Coupez la merde, petit chien -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 21:45:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Jim, J-M seemed to have difficullty understanding my English (nt) -:- Fri, Dec 10, 1999 at 08:41:19 (EST)
__ Who really knows -:- who is programming? -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 18:48:26 (EST)
__ Gregg -:- Re: Rawat's repulsive programming -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 17:55:40 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Thank you, Jean-Michel::::)))))(NT) -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 14:42:35 (EST)

Jim -:- Watch out for Mary M (Ana T) -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 11:16:31 (EST)
__ the late barney -:- Re: Watch out for Mary M (Ana T) -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 11:59:07 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Lunchtime check-in -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 16:02:17 (EST)
__ __ __ Susan -:- medical records -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 20:24:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Re: medical records -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 01:58:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ the late barney -:- Runamok - acting like a snake in the grass -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 02:10:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Joey, could you help out here, please? -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 21:31:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: Joey, could you help out here, please? -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 00:04:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ the late barney -:- ok, what else do we need to convince people here? -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 00:22:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Right on Barney, I'll take it one step further -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 02:27:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ the late barney -:- I found the post! -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 02:48:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: I found the post! -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 03:19:35 (EST)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Lunchtime check-in -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 19:58:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sorry, Dave, you miss the point -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 21:44:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: Sorry, Dave, you miss the point -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 01:02:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ the late barney -:- Good point and the AFF stuff, too -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 01:51:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Thanks Barney -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 02:42:21 (EST)
__ Runamok -:- Sig Heil, Jim -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 11:56:59 (EST)
__ __ Agent Dave -:- Re: Sig Heil, Jim -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 12:41:06 (EST)
__ __ __ Runamok -:- Re: Sig Heil, Jim -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 13:29:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- You're a fucking freak Run!! -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 14:20:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ the late barney -:- Ignorance is bliss and sadistic -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 16:17:30 (EST)

Cult member gerry -:- Attention All Ex-Premie Cultists... -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 11:04:01 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Baptism.. -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 18:56:08 (EST)
__ Cult Member in-good-standing gerry -:- Re: Attention All Ex-Premie Cultists... -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 12:06:25 (EST)
__ __ gerry -:- The committee will consider your application (NT) -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 12:07:41 (EST)
__ __ __ Ex-Cult Cultist Cynthia -:- I'll Bring a Broccolli/Cheese/Rice Casserole!! (NT) -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 12:44:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Ex-cook Jean-Michel -:- Re: I'll Bring a Broccolli/Cheese/Rice Casserole!! (NT) -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 16:35:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Grace -:- Re: I'll Bring a Broccolli/Cheese/Rice Casserole!! (NT) -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 21:38:51 (EST)

Cynthia -:- Backlash to My 'Backlash' Post -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 08:48:29 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Satsang on the Forum -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 15:50:23 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Thanks, Cynthia -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 16:10:07 (EST)
__ Katie -:- Re: Backlash to My 'Backlash' Post -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 09:52:25 (EST)
__ Who really knows -:- Re: Backlash to My 'Backlash' Post -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 09:30:39 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- Re: Backlash to My 'Backlash' Post -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 13:26:54 (EST)
__ __ Ben Lurking -:- none -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 11:31:45 (EST)
__ __ __ Who really knows' -:- Re: none or some -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 12:02:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: none or some -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 13:47:45 (EST)
__ __ gerry -:- Hey Asshole... -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 10:47:41 (EST)
__ __ __ Who really knows? -:- Re: To nice guy gerry from Who really knows Asshole... -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 12:06:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Prove your Allegations or shut up -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 12:30:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Who really knows -:- Re: About to prove -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 13:05:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- I knew you couldn't prove it... -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 13:20:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Who really knows -:- To gerry who doesnt know much -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 15:19:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- I knew you were a liar and a coward, so it's ok (NT) -:- Fri, Dec 10, 1999 at 10:19:38 (EST)
__ __ Katie -:- to who really knows -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 09:56:46 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- I Don't Know What the F**k You're Talking About -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 09:55:30 (EST)
__ __ __ Who really knows? -:- Re: I Don't Know What the F**k You're Talking About -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 10:22:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- You Don't Really Know, Do You? -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 10:46:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Who really knows? -:- Re: You Don't Really Know, Do You? -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 11:48:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I Know -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 12:33:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Mr. P-A -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 13:45:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I knew it was Bim........ -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 14:49:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Re: I knew it was Bim........ -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 15:01:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Who really knows? -:- To Cynthia who knows, I will follow your request and not answer. -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 13:08:36 (EST)

Enough -:- The Immaculate Deception -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 06:14:06 (EST)
__ Michael -:- Re: The Immaculate Deception -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 19:04:48 (EST)
__ __ Enough -:- Re: The Immaculate Deception -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 06:27:22 (EST)
__ __ Monmot -:- Re: The Immaculate Deception -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 01:49:20 (EST)
__ __ __ Michael -:- Re: The Immaculate Deception -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 08:50:49 (EST)
__ IsEnuf.com -:- Re: The Immaculate Deception -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 07:53:12 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- Annie's post from down under -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 03:37:12 (EST)
__ Jean-Michel -:- One simple point -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 04:45:50 (EST)
__ __ Annie -:- Re: One simple point -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 17:15:18 (EST)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Then, what are you doing here? -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 17:56:19 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Re: Annie's post from down under -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 04:13:38 (EST)
__ __ Grace -:- To JHB -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 10:01:11 (EST)
__ __ __ Gerry -:- Yes, Grace, and this too... -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 13:11:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Light in the Sky -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 13:16:08 (EST)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Re: To JHB -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 13:11:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Grace -:- Re: To JHB -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 13:42:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Experiences -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 15:35:24 (EST)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Ick! -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 04:04:57 (EST)
__ __ who knows -:- Re: Ick!-to Roger -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 10:23:42 (EST)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Whatever you say, Bim (nt) -:- Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 00:50:01 (EST)
__ __ Joey -:- Re: Ick! -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 04:18:13 (EST)

forum friends -:- Bobbys thread -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 00:54:42 (EST)
__ Bobby -:- Re: Bobbys thread -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 18:25:03 (EST)
__ Bobby's house -:- Re: Bobbys thread -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 07:55:58 (EST)
__ __ selene -:- Re: Bobbys thread -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 16:03:07 (EST)
__ __ __ bobby -:- Re: Bobbys thread -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 18:33:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ selene/evelina -:- good! see you in Hell -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 19:24:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ bb -:- Re: good! see you in Hell -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 22:37:30 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bobby -:- Re: good! see you in Hell -:- Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 23:37:37 (EST)


Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 06:44:34 (EST)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Irrelevant Forum IV
Message:
Hi-

When I first discovered this place about a year ago, I almost stopped reading immediately because of all the 'other stuff' going on here. By other stuff, I mean the bickering.

Now, that's all fine if that is what people want this to be. I was so freaked out at the time that I waded through the bullshit and found a lot of helpful information that has really been of value to me in breaking away from the Maharaji cult.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, is there a purpose to this forum and, if so, shouldn't we stick to it pretty much?

It seems that there are enough related sites now that the bickering can be taken elsewhere. This is only necessary to do if you believe that F4 should be a place where information about the Maharaji cult should be posted and support given to those people still trying to break free(as many of you obviously have).

While I waded throught the irrelevant stuff to find what I needed to survive a very difficult time, I suspect many new-comers might not. I have also seen others here mention the same thing.

So, really, it just comes down to what is the purpose of this forum and how much significance should be paid to new-comers and lurkers.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 16:11:56 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: djrayovac@aol.com
To: Enough
Subject: Re: Irrelevant Forum IV
Message:
I agree with you, but it also is a sign of a democracy that people are allowed to argue. I wish we would and hope we can find a way to organize our cyber-areas so that people won't be thrust in to all this shit.

At least you made it out. I was long gone from Mirage before the Internet existed (think my dates are right).

I think what you are saying is important. Some people might take it personally but it's worth saying.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 16:15:34 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Re: Irrelevant Forum IV
Message:
Hi Enough and Run -
I think both of you are right. SOME bickering is a sign of health, but continued bickering is not only off topic, but subverts the purpose of the forum (Enough, I am glad that you hung in there through the arguments.) Anyway, I feel that I am only adding to the present argument, so I'm taking off for a while. See you both Elsewhere.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Dec 10, 1999 at 00:20:02 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Irrelevant Forum IV
Message:
Hi Katie, my wife sent an email and a guy in france
ended up getting it!
SO I dont know if the one I sent to ex org arrived.
MY email is bburke@rocketmail.com
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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 16:06:20 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: djrayovac@aol.com
To: Enough
Subject: Re: Irrelevant Forum IV
Message:
I do mostly agree with you, but it's also a sign of democracy that people can argue. If we can pull through it, people will see it for what it is: people struggling over the truth instead of acquiescing a convenient package labelled that way.

I wish we didn't bicker and that THE forum was flame-free. But I also know that if there are issues to deal with there's no use in pretending they aren't there.

Take care, Enough.

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 13:03:45 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Rawat's programming
Message:
And I give you an example of two persons. Both of them are lost somewhere. You just tell me whose condition is worse? There is that man who is lost, but he knows that he is lost. And there is another one who is also lost, but he does not know that he is lost. Whose condition is more precarious? That person who is lost and knows that he is lost, at least he will try to return back on the right track. But the person who is going on complacently without knowing that he is actually lost, will have to face a lot of trouble in the long run. Because the longer he goes without any inkling that he is lost, the more he would deviate from his destination, and he will have to cover that much extra distance in-order to reach where he wants to go. And it is also possible that he might go astray so far that he could never be able to return back to his destination. The former one can stop at a place and stay there but the latter is still going on his wrong journey. So, what I want to make you understand is that people are drifting in the river of Maya of sorrow in this world. It does not matter whether man has invented electricity or whatever achievements he has made. The point here is of this unrest. If man is restless despite all these modern facilities -- or without them, then what is that thing which can pacify man and give him peace? And he needs it. But what is it?
So, we have been given this body. It is also regarded as a 'grace.' And we accept that it is a prodigious achievement. We have got this breath, this life too. This is a superb grace as well. We do concede that it is one of the foremost graces. But according to my experience, the greatest grace of all is, when someone shows us the true way:

I'm into translating that wonderful piece (of BS) in French, and realizing
how deep that part of the Rawat's brainwashing was, and still is for me.

Grace and Gratitude - Maharaji, Shri Sant Yogashram, New Delhi - Vaishakhi Celebrations - 13th April, 1992 - (Public Program)

Because this is really a very powerful brainwashing.

Rawat is very clever in making you believe, and keep believing that your 'unrest' or sorrow
comes from you on the 'wrong track', and whatever the 'right track is supposed to be, when
these feelings of unrest and sorrow are actually very natural human feelings.

One has to deal with them, and this may be difficult at times, but 'surrendering the reins of your life' to a (perfect)'master' is actually the worse thing I've done in my life.

And I guess this is still his motto today. What else could attract 'interested' people today ?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 10:13:39 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Rawat's programming
Message:
Jean-Michel,

You say, 'Rawat is very clever in making you believe, and keep believing that your 'unrest' or sorrow
comes from you on the 'wrong track', and whatever the 'right track is supposed to be, when
these feelings of unrest and sorrow are actually very natural human feelings.'

I agree to a certain extent but I feel BETTER after I meditate, that's why I keep doing it, and that's why I value it. Most people move away from pain and toward pleasure, that's why we have air-conditioning, nice restaurants, comfortable chairs, shoes etc.

If you loose your money you have lost little. If you loose your health you have lost more. But if you loose your happiness/peace/equilibrium you have lost a lot.

I am of the opinion that life is to be enjoyed.

Dep

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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 12:02:45 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: It's 'lose', for God's sake. Not 'loose' (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 20:02:44 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You mention God? I meant loosen, it was a typo (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 13:25:37 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: 'loose' and 'lose' - a recurring theme
Message:
At least two other anonymous premie posters have spelled 'lose' as 'loose': typically in calling the exes 'a bunch of loosers'. And I am talking about posts going back almost two years. I suspect they are all the work of one person (and certainly no more than two bain cells).
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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 12:01:55 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: It's 'lose
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 20:21:55 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim please finish off the quotation marks, it's 'lose' not 'lose (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 11:38:07 (EST)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Deputy Dog
Message:
I want you to join my cult. I am taking over as the cult leader here at Forum 4 I have seen you would be a real asset. You are tenacious and cannot be dissuaded from your faith by any amount of logic. You are just the kind of guy I need in my cult. I know that you will never be swayed away from your faith in me despite whatever evidence the unbelieving my hurl your way.

So join my cult DD. As I said your may find it a better place than your present cult. I will from time to time talk to you personally. I might even make you an instructor. I will send you prasad too. I will even tell you a secret .......ssshhh...don't tell anyone. I have chosen you DD because you are the only one special enough to know this secret and to appreciate it. When you prove you are worthy and pure enough to know the secret I will tell you. It will make you happy beyong your wildest dreams. You will know the secret of life no one, not even premies, knows.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 20:19:16 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Re: Deputy Dog
Message:
--
Susan,

That's 'not even premies know.' (not knows)

I wouldn't have brought it up if Jim hadn't mentioned my earlier spelling mistake. That's what the Forum should become. It could criticise M and also be an on-going grammar lesson.

I'm intrigued by your offer. However I'm pretty much stocked up on secrets at this point in time. How about sexual favours? Would you provide them? That's something that could win me over.

Dep

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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 21:18:38 (EST)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Ah you Dog you
Message:
Yes, you are right on this. You really are so insightful. That is why I want you to join my cult.

I am sorry the only favors I offer will be of the spiritual variety though I have heard it is often profitable for cult leaders to let a few chosen devotees make some bucks too, especially if you can get the devotee to do something illegal to help you make money. It stops them from blabbing if they ever leave for fear of self incrimination.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 21:28:29 (EST)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Doggy Ji
Message:
Dog, Lest you think that my error in grammar makes me imperfect let me share with you this wisdom. I do not like to dwell on history or the past, as I am forward thinking. I have evolved since I made that error in grammar. Grammar, is not real. Only what is within inside is real. We must focus on that beauty that shines and glows within us and realize that the words of this world are not enough to describe the beauty within us. If you critisize me again your brain is going to turn into 1.000 tons of rotting vegetables, but dear son, you are with me always in every breath.
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Date: Fri, Dec 10, 1999 at 08:37:46 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: So no sex then Susan? ( nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 12:41:15 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: SUSAN
Subject: BRAVO!!! GREAT POST! LOLOL (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 10:21:29 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: So what, dep?
Message:
I have a hard time finding some sense in what you're writing here.

Do you really THINK that most people (except for the wise premies) are like animals, that they don't think about what they're doing, about their goals in life ??????

Rawat pictures such a caricature that he's got NO credibility ! This is a ridiculous approach to one's life, and I guess that's one of the main reasons people come, and leave so fast !

You should read some of the e-mails I've gotten from 'new persons' who've watched videos or listen to tapes, and hear what they really think !!

Rawat's approach is totally off, even for people having questions, or problems, or sincerely 'searching'. There is no consistency in his theories on life. I'm sorry.

He merely keeps repeating what his father used to say, maybe a bit edulcorated here and there, but nobody in the real world buys that sort of BS anymore.

Even if people are looking for a meditation teacher, they don't want to listen to what that one says. He's so insulting and gross, and far from the real world. This is reality. I've always seen this when I was involved. I was ashamed of what he used to say - and still says!

And I know I'm not the only one. I've often discussed this with premies, and believe me, every intelligent premie is shocked by this. They take it as a 'lila', up to the point they're fed up.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 10:28:30 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: So what, dep?
Message:
What I'm saying here J-M s that I meditate because it makes me feel good. And I prefer feeling good over feeling bad. J'aime avoir la joi de vivre et la meditation la me donne!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 11:15:29 (EST)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: So what, dep?
Message:
The issue you raise illustrates how perverse MJ's distortion of meditation is. From my current quasi-buddhist perspective, the purpose of meditation is not to get high or feel good but to gain insight into the workings of our thoughts and feelings which results in insight and a type of freedom. Concentrative techniques-like those in knowledge- may result in people feeling'blissed out' but are not an end in themselves. MJ has managed to get premies to identify this meditative experience as something that comes from him (good old guru's grace) and avoids anything that would increase a premie's insight that would threaten his divine place in their lives.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 11:43:26 (EST)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: Re: the unexamined lies
Message:
As a quasi-Buddhist myself, I couldn't agree with you more. As the Greeks put it, 'The unexamined life is not worth living.'

Rawat's followers are encouraged to shut out the world and bliss out -- or try to. They are not encouraged to examine the world, understand themselves, or, God forbid, question the teacher or his teachings.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 10:31:32 (EST)
From: Jean-Miche
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Ok, and do you ever think?
Message:
Meditating is fine, I still enjoy it at times.

But not for the sake of feeling good. There are many ways to feel good !

The Rawat's theories don't make me feel good.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 11:09:27 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jean-Miche
Subject: Re: Ok, and do you ever think?
Message:
J-M,

Met tous les theories dans le poubelle. L'experience de la meditation est au-dessus les theories. C'est une experience de la clarte, de la videsse. Et je prefer le bonheur que la tristesse.

If faut que je fasse un nettoyage de temps en temps. Et c'est pour ces raisons je fait de la meditation. Et j'ai aussi autres facons d'etre heureux.

Dep

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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 11:50:16 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: So what about the Rawat's theories?
Message:
Can you honestly answer that very question ?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 20:00:21 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: So what about the Rawat's theories?
Message:
J-M,

La paix est en toi. Connais toi meme.

Dep

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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 21:45:57 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Coupez la merde, petit chien
Message:
Well I've seen evasion, and I've seen evasion but ain't this something? Doggie can't deal with JM's question so he retreats right out of the English language!
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Date: Fri, Dec 10, 1999 at 08:41:19 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, J-M seemed to have difficullty understanding my English (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 18:48:26 (EST)
From: Who really knows
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: who is programming?
Message:
Thanks for now.
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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 17:55:40 (EST)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Rawat's repulsive programming
Message:
The people who are 'lost but know not that they are lost' -- these would be everybody not 'saved' by Guru Maharaj Ji. This is another part of GMJ's essential message, identical to the one many of us find so repulsive in evangelical Christianity: that all non-believers are doomed. There is One True Religion. Most Hindus at least pay lip service to the idea that there are 'many paths up the mountain,' but GMJ never did. Does he now, now that we have the new, sterilized and whitewashed organization-that-is-not-a-cult? I don't know, but I doubt it.
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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 14:42:35 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thank you, Jean-Michel::::)))))(NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 11:16:31 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Watch out for Mary M (Ana T)
Message:
I've only got a second before I have to run. I shouldn't even be doing this but I thought it can't wait.

Mary's started posting again as 'Ana T'. This bitch is weird! If she's not lying about one thing, trying to get x mistrusting y but not telling z, she's doing it about something else, trying to get z mistrusting x and y. The fact is she's a very, very, very decitful woman. Clever, smooth and entirely pathological. Now all this tuff is fun in a way but it'd be a real shame if we let this nut sow additional divisiveness and really derail the discussion here. I mean a little diversion's fun once in a while (e.g. I saw 'Being John Malkovitch' last night and thought, quite frankly, it was a big, big disappointment.) But it's another thing to let this psychopath's clever little whispers get into your brain. Now that would be folly.

For example, on the ex-only page she's already accused me of emailing Harlan about her. Not! And some bullshit about my 'father's financial shenanigans'. What a fucking joke!

Anyways, it goes on. I don't have time to say any more now except, Mary, if you persist you'll regret it. That, my friend, is a threat to do whatever it takes legally to keep you off the net. No more but no less. And believe me, I think I can. Want to see?

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 11:59:07 (EST)
From: the late barney
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Watch out for Mary M (Ana T)
Message:
While I disagree with Jim completely on the movie, saw 'Being John Malkovitch', I am in complete agreement regarding Mary M. as I was one of her victims.

Mary M (now running as Ana T) is most dangerous. Maharaji could not have asked for anything better to damage this community of people.

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 16:02:17 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: the late barney
Subject: Lunchtime check-in
Message:
Okay, some further thoughts:

1) Dave, it is completely superficial and thus very disappointing to hear you go on about how 'unreal' this all is. Yeah, right. We are verbal animals, our lives are largely lives of words. Maharaji used words to ensnare and confuse us and, unfortunately, Mary used words to try to alienate both Barney and Joey from the whole ex on-line community. And community it is, Dave. Don't be an idiot and deny that, please. We 'meet' with each other, share real thoughts and feelings with each other. Hell, where geography allows we even extend our relationships far off the page. And I'm not even talking about extreme cases like Brian and Katie or Joy and ... who'd she marry again? Nice guy is all I remember.

The premies, like Annie, are quick to say this is all 'unreal' but that's just another evasive move to deny the reality behind this cyber net. Please don't fall for the same trick. In fact, I doubt you'd be saying anything of the sort if you thought of the times you yourself have expressed some pretty heart-felt sentiments here and have received nothing but honest, 'real' support befitting the occasion. Please don't scoff at that.

And please don't scoff at the more intellectual activity here either. That's as real as our own thoughts can ever be. Premies like to reduce human existence to something they think is 'more fundamental' than that. That's a trick and you know it. Our thoughts, like our bodies, are as 'real' as we're ever going to get and some of that reality bleeds right onto this here page. Sure we can deceive each other like crazy in this medium but that is far from proof of the medium's own limitations. I guess that's why I don't like anonymity so much. It tricks people into thinking that these words don't matter so much. They do and they don't, depending on this and that, like words everywhere.

2) Run, you're a complete asshole. You're also dumb. AND unfair. I know you never really understood the true story of Mary's past mischief but, know what? The present is good enough. Here's a sample from the ex-olny site:

I also want to know why you sent an e-mail to Harlan to find any information he may have had on me.

Now, is my word worth anything around here? I did no such thing, I tell you. This is just the kind of stuff this bitch does. She's either crazy or malicious (or possibly both). What's she's not is to be trusted. That's why I started this thread.

Oh, I almost forgot, try this one:

I convinced a certain individual NOT to post anything about your father and some banking shenanigans he allegedly knew of. I felt then and still feel that it is best NOT to cast aspersions on anyones parents or children in the forums.

Dave, anyone, how would you feel having to deal with such nonsense about your family here? (By the way, the allegation's crazy. Pure, unadulterated craziness.)

Then, of course, there was Mary's posting Joey's parents' med records here. Really! Can you imagine? You, of all people, Dave, should have some serious concerns about someone who'd do something like that. And why'd she do it? One reason only: to intimidate Joey. There could be no other.

3) Oh, yeah, I forgot that was a 'point' about Run. Well, Run, maybe it's time for you to start posting under YOUR real name, eh? I've taken about as much bullshit as I choose to from your ignomious web-self. Perhaps your moniker gets the best of you, huh? Look, asshole, I'm Jim Heller and that's real enough for me. You're ... who? Mr. Runamok? And that entitles you to do what? Sorry, fella, I'm not impressed.

4) Grace, you weren't here when Mary did here thing or perhaps you weren't paying attention. The reason I posted this here in particular is because Mary is trying to ingratiate herself back onto the forum. Slowly at first but sure enough. Question is, do we let her or not? I say no and that the matter must be dealt with face-on. That means here, there's nowhere else.

5) Susan, thanks for your clarity. There are times to be 'nice' and times that doesn't work. Thanks for seeing that.

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 20:24:15 (EST)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: medical records
Message:
If someone really did use his or her access as a professional to medical records to post them to humiliate another person I think this is criminal and should be prosecuted.

I am in a postion to keep medical confidences myself. I can say that without a doubt that I would never violate a patients privacy and trust. If Rawat himself were my patient no one would ever even know it.

If this happened it should be reported to a person who can deal with it. This makes me very angry.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 01:58:17 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Re: medical records
Message:
'If someone really did use his or her access as a professional to medical records to post them'

is an awfully big if, Susan.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 02:10:49 (EST)
From: the late barney
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Runamok - acting like a snake in the grass
Message:
Runamok,

It was pretty strange stuff. I saw it, did you? Were you even reading the Forum or AG then? Please try to talk about things that you know.

It looked like medical information to me and Joey thought so as well.

As Roger eDrek said to Shp down below I think that now is the time for a little sensitivity to the people who really got injured by Mary M. This is serious stuff. I know it really fucked me up, but good and I think that it was even worse for Joey. Again, I urge you to consider that the potential consequences were extremely grave and I am very grateful that nothing really bad happened.

I think that asking Mary M. not to post or even blocking her is appropriate under the circumstances. She really put the big hurt on some folks around here. She can get her healing elsewhere so it's not like we are leaving her out to twist in the wind.

She burned her bridge here as far as I'm concerned.

Read it and weep. I'm sure that Maharaji had a big laugh over the whole damn thing.

So, can we just do the right thing (protecting the injured parties) and put it all behind us? And for a moment remove the personal vendettas against Jim.

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 21:31:08 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Joey, could you help out here, please?
Message:
Susan,

Here's what happened. Someone with access to medical records posted some identifying aspects of Joey's parents' hospital records in Montreal. There were some other aspects of the post and the context in which it was made that strongly suggest Mary (who, after all, works in hospital admin) as the culprit. I'm sdure Joey has a copy of the post somewhere. Perhaps he'd be so kind as to re-post it and to shed whatever light he can on the matter.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 00:04:13 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Joey, could you help out here, please?
Message:
Jim,

I don't have the post at my fingertips, but it was made approximately 2 and 1/2 months ago in response to a post made by Rabbi Nimstein, whom most people would correctly identify as yours truly.

I can't remember off hand the handle used by the poster in question, but the content of the post went something like this.

'Yo Rabbi, what premie trolls?' ( I had made a reference in the Rabbi Nimstein post to premie trolls)

Then came the heading 'frais services medicaux' or in English,medical service charges,for the years 1997 and 1998, followed by a whole lot of mostly dollar sign numbers and some percentage numbers. There were no names mentioned, but I assumed theses numbers could not be related to my file, as they were quite substantial and there was no way that I had run up that kind of bill for our Quebec medicare system to handle. They could more easily have been related to the files of my parents as they're both in their 80's and requiring the kind of treatment that people in that age bracket so often require.
The fact of the matter is that regardless of which files these numbers came from, even if they had been made up...they were numbers that one could only assume pertained to medical files out of Quebec, where I and my parents reside.

Again there's only one person who has participated in this forum who works in the MIS department of a hospital, and as Mary McGraw had frequently pointed out to me during earlier conversations, she frequently accessed the data banks from the RAMQ (Quebec Health Insurance Board) to process claims and charges for a fair number of Quebec residents spending time down in Florida.

There was one and only one inference that could be drawn from the post. Whoever the poster, they could get medical files from Quebec.

And again, there's only one person who has participated here who we know could have done that. Mary McGraw

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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 00:22:35 (EST)
From: the late barney
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: ok, what else do we need to convince people here?
Message:
Yes, I remember the posting of medical information. It was rather obscure, but the sick point was made.

I would assume that such access and public posting of that kind of information is not only unethical, but very illegal. And that should be reason enough to ban and block Mary M. for life.

Nowhere on the Internet is such behavior needed, nor should it be tolerated. And that goes for this and other ex-premie forums, especially.

NO EXCUSE!

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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 02:27:58 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: the late barney
Subject: Right on Barney, I'll take it one step further
Message:
Excellently stated barney,

The fact that someone participating in this forum would publish any information pertaining to medical files of anyone, is an implicit threat to ALL participants of the forum. No one can feel safe if thats the case.

And again, for the umpteenth time there's only one person we know who has access to medical files as part of her work, who has been posting on this forum.

But the fact that this could be done is not only a threat to the sense of well being of our forum participants, its a threat to the well being of the medical institution who employs such a person.

Mary might want to think of this, if she has a hard time accepting a block on her participation here, or better still her voluntary withdrawal.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 02:48:58 (EST)
From: the late barney
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: I found the post!
Message:
Oh boy! You'll never guess who the poster is. Maybe we're wrong on this. Or else she has used this notorious handle.

Shall I post it?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 03:19:35 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: the late barney
Subject: Re: I found the post!
Message:
Go ahead post it, barney. I don't think we're wrong about anything. Mary certainly would have used a weird handle for this one. Lets see it.
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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 19:58:03 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Lunchtime check-in
Message:
Jim: if I posted something here and wrote that I was still going to try to relate to you, despite your uncle's involvement in Stalin's purges and was also still going to read Katie's posts even though I had not yet recovered from the break-up of our twelve year marriage and her having run off with all three of our children to live with Chris Dickey, who she had cruely tricked and taken all of his money...

If I said all of that, would you take me seriously? Would you not think that perhaps I had a problem? I don't think you'd call me a psychopath.

It is my feeling that if someone has a problem of this sort of magnitude, we can be big enough to do something to help them, perhaps. Certainly we cannot take their allegations seriously and that done, we are in a better position to help.

Regarding the posting of medical records; if this really was done then surely the relevant authorities should have been informed. Or perhaps this, even, is an exaggeration and the actual records weren't posted. I didn't see that.

Anyway, I understand your point of view and your concern. I wonder if you can, for a minute, understand mine?

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 21:44:57 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Sorry, Dave, you miss the point
Message:
Jim: if I posted something here and wrote that I was still going to try to relate to you, despite your uncle's involvement in Stalin's purges and was also still going to read Katie's posts even though I had not yet recovered from the break-up of our twelve year marriage and her having run off with all three of our children to live with Chris Dickey, who she had cruely tricked and taken all of his money...

If I said all of that, would you take me seriously? Would you not think that perhaps I had a problem? I don't think you'd call me a psychopath.

Well, surely Dave, if you posted any of that, knowing you as I do, I'd enjoy the fact that you were just fucking around. Big deal. No harm, no foul.

But, Dave, that is not at all what Mary did. She really did undertake a long, complex campaign of disinformation, intrigue and confusion. Maybe because he'd just left the cult he'd been in for so long or for whatever other reason, Joey was susceptible to that kind of thinking and Mary absolutely exploited that trait in him. She really played him like a fiddle. Worse, all the while, she told others she thought he was mentally ill and did her best to alienate him from the rest of us. And, don't forget, her main device was fueling this big campaign of nonsense against Barney. Those were very weird, hard days for Barney and Joey in particular. Nothing funny about it. Don't you remember any of it?

It is my feeling that if someone has a problem of this sort of magnitude, we can be big enough to do something to help them, perhaps. Certainly we cannot take their allegations seriously and that done, we are in a better position to help.

Yeah, well that only works when they're saying stuff that no one in their right mind would take seriously. But that's not in the slightest what Mary does. Again, do you really think my father was guilty of 'banking shenanigans' or that I emailed Harlan about Mary? What's so obvious about those lies? They're not at all like your examples, Dave. Not in the slightest.

Yes, Mary needs help. But that doesn't change the fact that she's completely untrustworthy in her present state.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 01:02:47 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Sorry, Dave, you miss the point
Message:
Jim,

Your analysis of the situation that developed between myself and Mary,along with your descrption of her motivation is so right on...I don't believe that in all honesty I could change a word.

I would like to add the following comment however to this statement of yours:

Yes, Mary needs help. But that doesn't change the fact that she's completely untrustworthy in her present state.

Of course she needs help. The question is where is she to get it.
As Barney has pointed out, Mary made her return to our little cyber community under the pretense that she had sought professional help, and that her counsellor or therapist had advised her to return here in order to work out issues relating to her involvement in the cult.
Even if the first part of that statement is true, and how we can rely on anything that Mary says, I must say that only a quack would recommend that she return here, where she has claimed to have suffered so much pain as a result of her previous forum involvement. Of course she's probably caused more than she herself has experienced and that would make this place especially unsuitable for her to work out anything.
There are other resources available to Mary. There are Refocus groups available in certain parts of the US and other groups for former members of cults where Mary could have a more positive experience working out her issues in face to face contact with other former cult members. In a face to face setting, there's also less opportunity for deception, and Mary could only benefit from that as well.
I can tell you, having just attended a weekend workshop for former cult members sponsored by the AFF, that a cult is a cult is a cult...and there's no way that our own little stinking former cult is a cult apart. Its a cult like all others and I found myself relating TOTALLY to the experiences of former members whether they came from the International Church of Christ, Sri Chimnoy, the Moonies, this cult of 25 people from the Baltimore area where they were waiting for aliens to come to save the planet, or even this three person cult consisting of this dude who broke away from Theosophy and snared these two women (sisters) to be his closest followers. Believe it or not, wherever we came from, we were dealing with the same issues. Everything was just so relatable.
My point is this. Given Mary's past involvement on this forum and even given her most recent behavior, she doesn't belong here, and there is no reason for us to feel duty bound to help her, when she can be better helped elsewhere.

Mary as we all know is plenty resourceful. She'll be able to find all the help she needs if working out issues relating to her cultic involvement is indeed the issue.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 01:51:11 (EST)
From: the late barney
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Good point and the AFF stuff, too
Message:
Excellent post, Joey. I am unabashedly in the Joey fan club. Joey is so very ON with his very clear and articulate writing. I'm very grateful that our battles are over because I'm not anywhere that good.

'Nuff said...

Anyway, excellent and duh! obvious point that the forum(s) are probably not the best place for Mary M. to work out her problems all things considered. I'm always grateful for the multi-perspective aspect of the forum to fill in where my thinking falls short.

Joey, I don't know if you've said anything in more detail about your AFF seminar than in this post, but it certainty sounded worthwhile. If you've got more to say on the experience please do!

The very thought provoking point that I picked up was your statement:

there's no way that our own little stinking former cult is a cult apart

Even though I've been gone from Maharaji for almost two years after nearly 25 years of being marginally involved I still hold our cult, my cult above all other cults as being somehow special and better than all the other really lame ones. I guess that would seem that such thinking would be a natural part of belonging to a cult. After all, who wants to belong to a substandard cult?

So, we were just as lame as all the others? I'm going to have to digest that one for a few days.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 02:42:21 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: the late barney
Subject: Thanks Barney
Message:
Joey is so very ON with his very clear and articulate writing. I'm very grateful that our battles are over because I'm not anywhere that good.

You crack me up man! Who do you think I learned from?:::))

Its late here Barn, and this has been exhausting. But the workshop was really a wonderful experience... there's really alot that would be so neat to share with everyone about the participants and the issues we were all dealing with IN COMMON, that if you give me a couple of days...I'll try and put up a post about it.

BTW, I think we're both in each other's fan club right now.

You're great, man!

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 11:56:59 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sig Heil, Jim
Message:
I know people who leave the forum or who do not participate as much as they would like in order to avoid contact with Jim Heller. I don't like contact with him. He does some things right, but just never seems happy without a vicious fight.

Does anyone want to agree with me publicly? I can mention a significant name or two of people who do agree. However when someone is gettnig mugged, agreeing that they shouldn't be mugged isn't really the point.

Mary has made some mistakes, it's true. So have a few other people and Jim is on that list. I'm not able to trust Jim's version of a story on the merit of his word. He may not be a liar but he is perfectly capable of distorting the facts.

I'm tired of this place being a Jerry Springer lookalike and it makes us look stupid. There's no way we can use this URL as a media contact site because any journalist who could
figure out what is going on wouldn't be impressed with much of what they see.

Jim wants Mary ostracized because of a 'he said/she said' situation. Joey and perhaps 2 others will vehemently agree (add a large number of pseudonyms that belong to the same people).

Mary obviously isn't as sophisticated as Jim at posting. It's hard not to want to respond agressively when someone is dissing you as Jim is dissing her. Wouldn't it be better if the name-calling stuff would end? Not necessarily banned, but we could realize that it's not getting us anywhere.

This is why I have often discussed the futility of posting to premies and arguing. If we are driven to constant argument with each other (which is what seems to happen), we stand to lose a lot. Our commitment has to be to each other. Forget about the premies. If they want to watch let them watch, but they're not really important.

Mary has contributed a lot with in-depth corporate searches. Now that others are doing the same thing, are we going to discard her as a useless commodity? For years Jim has called attention to his early involvement in Internet posting about Miragey. He has mentioned this ad infinitum while others have quietly served for those years as webmasters and in other equal or more important capacities. Mary's postings of corporate info IMO are he most powerful revelations that I have seen (compare it to blueprints of a mansion- blueprints of a financial empire).

Is this Heller's call or can someone speak up besides me?

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 12:41:06 (EST)
From: Agent Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Runamok
Subject: Re: Sig Heil, Jim
Message:
Well I don't agree with anyone; not Jim nor you or the Late Barney. I haven't got a clue as to what you're all getting into such a lather about. How can Mary M be dangerous? Come on!

Someone even called her a psychopath. Isn't that a little bit of an exaggeration?!! I can find plenty of real psychopaths walking the dark streets of inner London if I want to.

Sorry but I am a bit biased here. I think Americans take the Internet too seriously. That and their therapy etc etc.

Look, if someone posted here and said that my Uncle was a Nazi concentration camp commandant what the hell would it matter? My friends would know the truth of the matter. It's all virtual here and as soon as you start taking it too seriously it can get very, very complicated.

But it is bizarre and that holds some fascination, for me anyway.

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 13:29:11 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Agent Dave
Subject: Re: Sig Heil, Jim
Message:
Seems to me that you do agree with me completely.

How can Mary M be dangerous? Come on!

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 14:20:41 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: You're a fucking freak Run!!
Message:
How can Mary M be dangerous? Come on!

This is how.

By taking issues of disaffection and mistrust between exes and turning it into a full frontal attack on Barney that means absolutely f**ck all to you, but has caused him considerable hurt. I for one have a hard time in forgiving myself for allowing myself to become the instrument of her victimization in that regard.

At least this didn't happen. In the end game of our relationship which contributed to bringing me to the brink of suicide, she attempted to goad me into an attack against Susan, asserting that Susan was being less than truthful in her claim of sexual assault by Jagdeo. That amongst other things was the final straw in our relationship...THANK GOD!!

To this day I'm grateful I didn't go down either of those paths...attacking Susan OR suicide, both of which I suppose wouldn't have represented any harm in your books, you fucking freak!

AND THEN, if the posting of information pertaining to peoples medical files or reasonable facsimiles thereof doesn't constitute dangerous to you I don't know what will.

Again for the record there's only one person that we know of in our little cyber community, who works as a senior system analyst in a hospital where she has access to these records...and that's Mary McGraw. Let people draw their own conclusions.

Finally even now as she claims to be recovering from her disease, in Cynthia's original 'Backlash' thread, she's attempting to glomm Katie into believing that it was I who posted a really offensive post against Cynthia, something which couldn't be farther from the truth.

The harm which she's brought in the past is something that she's clearly intent on visiting on us again.

I could go on Run, but you're just an ass if you can't see it.

Then again at one point, so was I, but at least I learned something from it.

I'm just wondering if you ever will.

One more thing. Fuck off with your Sig Heils directed against Jim. I've had enough with the way you and Mary both in your own ways, have cheapened the memory of the Holocaust.

You're both fucking sick!!

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 16:17:30 (EST)
From: the late barney
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Ignorance is bliss and sadistic
Message:
I agree with Susan that we should not feed this fire. I had hoped that this issue was over.

However, seeing the very real possibility that Mary M. is returning to our community (and I also believe that she has been sneaking in from time to time) is something that needs to be addressed.

We have absolute proof that Mary M. is a pathological liar with a diabolical bent. Joey and I (and a few others) have suffered greatly at her hands. I forgive Joey completely. And I also feel very bad about the things I said about Joey and am having a difficult time forgiving myself. Joey, I completely understand what happened.

In reality the ultimate victim of Mary M. was Joey. I believe him when he said that he was at the brink of suicide. And to the people making statements and judgements that absolve Mary M. and especially to those who give their support to Mary M. without having taken the time to study the issue I say that you are very misguided and even sadistic. I am appalled. I am flabbergasted and furious.

All the talk about discovery, healing, and what not does not mean anything if Mary M. is allowed to in any fashion continue her charade regardless of her mental condition and her claim that her therapist suggested that she return. For Mary I feel sorry and hope that she gets well. However, she needs to do whatever she has to do somewhere else in order to protect HER victims on these forums. There is no evidence that she can ever be trusted again. To avoid the possibly of Mary's re-victimization of myself or Joey she should be banned, shunned and castigated. As awful as that sounds, It is the right thing to do. Remember, Joey was on the brink of suicide and I was not too doing too well either.

To suggest any remedy other than total banishment of Mary M. is ignorantly sadistic.

Mary M. has done far more harm to the Forum and the objectives (recovery and healing is one of them) of ex-premies than Maharaji could ever do.

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 11:04:01 (EST)
From: Cult member gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Attention All Ex-Premie Cultists...
Message:
Now that we are finally 'outed' and in the open, it's time to get down to a little business.

First, there's this little matter of a charismatic authoritarian Leader. I nominate Jim, the obvious choice. Although Runamok would do nicely also.

I also think we should be looking into purchasing some land. We need a property where we can all meet and get that old energy revived. You know what I mean.

Of course there are various and sundry appointments to be made and a brief fundraising will be held in the near fututre.

JW has volunteered to set up the corporate structure and he and Marriane will be handling the day by day business end of the schtick.

We need volunteers to work on public relations, community outreach, videography and the internet (Roger?) and lots of others details.

I am calling for a general, on line meeting of all Ex-Premie Cult for Dec 12 at 09:00 GMT. The exact location and the amount and type of refreshments to be served will be disemeninated by phone tree...

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 18:56:08 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Baptism..
Message:
Do you renounce Maharaji and all his works?

I do renounce him.

Do you renounce Maharaji and all his wealth?

I do renounce him.

Do you renounce Maharaji and all his promises?

I do renounce him.

Do you renounce Maharaji and all his lies?

I do renounce him.

Do you renounce Maharaji and all his protection of lawbreakers?

I do renounce him.

Do you renounce Maharaji and all his poetry?

I do renounce him.

Do you renounce Maharaji and all his pomp?

I do renounce him.

I hereby baptise you in the church of ex-premie. May the Jim, the Susan, and the Latvian Vodka be with you forever more.

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 12:06:25 (EST)
From: Cult Member in-good-standing gerry
Email: None
To: Cult member gerry
Subject: Re: Attention All Ex-Premie Cultists...
Message:
Of course, we're gonna need a place where we can discuss our plots, er, programs, er, plans in private so I've created this new forum.

All posts which do not concern Ex-Premie Cult (TM) business will de considered ''chit-chat'' and will be deleted immediately.

The Cult of the Ex-Premie

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 12:07:41 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: The committee will consider your application (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 12:44:37 (EST)
From: Ex-Cult Cultist Cynthia
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: gerry
Subject: I'll Bring a Broccolli/Cheese/Rice Casserole!! (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 16:35:00 (EST)
From: Ex-cook Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Ex-Cult Cultist Cynthia
Subject: Re: I'll Bring a Broccolli/Cheese/Rice Casserole!! (NT)
Message:
I've even cooked for the Rawats! Can you believe this ?
Dharampal (raja) and Prempal ! even brought it to his hotel room!*

I've had lots of grace!!!

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 21:38:51 (EST)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: Ex-cook Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: I'll Bring a Broccolli/Cheese/Rice Casserole!! (NT)
Message:
I'm so envious! Hey, if I touched your hand could I get second hand darshan?:)
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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 08:48:29 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: All
Subject: Backlash to My 'Backlash' Post
Message:
Hello everyone,

Down yonder, I started a new message called 'Backlash! Forum IV a Cult.' I posted a quote, and I LOLed at the notion that forum IV is a cult or sect. I really don't 'get' the replies. But let me tell ya something, I am not stupid. There are many areas in which I am imperfect and deficient, but my intellect works very well. I also can sense a bullshit artist a mile away....I was trained that way from birth. SO....I'm a bit miffed. Nothing serious.

The Susan B. Anthony quote (check below, if don't feel like typing it again) has always meant a lot to me. IMO Susan B. was probably yelling this at the top of her lungs at a suffrage rally, I don't really know. The sentences are incomplete gramatically, so it can be interpreted differently by individuals. Isn't that the way with any great literature and writings?

I suppose I thought the quote was appropo to the subject of anonymity. I understand completely why exes who post here might want to use an alias. I choose not to because I have always believed that quote. It takes courage to post under one's real name and face the consequences. Frankly, I don't give a shit if anyone I know sees my name and my posts. I have nothing to fear. In fact, it's very possible my own sister has read my posts....I haven't heard from her in weeks, except for a few emails re: her family, nothing about m.

It also takes courage to realize that the world is full of fakery, e.g., m and his cult, and some people who post here. The quote could be taken in support of both a premie and an expremie, but that's not the point. It's a goddam good quote. Here's another poem that I have had tacked to my bulletin board in my home office for years--it also means what it means: TO YOU.....

BE NOBODY'S DARLING by Alice Walker

Be nobody's darling;
Be an outcast
Take the contradictions
Of your life
And wrap aound
You like a shawl,
To parry stones
To keep you warm.

Watch the people succumb
To madness
With ample cheer;
Let them look askance at you
And you askance reply.

Be an outcast;
Be pleased to walk aone
(Uncool)
Or line the crowded
River beds
With other impetuous
Fools.

Make a merry gathering
On the bank
Where thousands perished
For brave hurt words
They said.

Be noboby's darling;
Be an outcast.
Qualified to live
Among your dead.

The Anthony quote and the above poem mean a lot to me and have helped strengthen my own morality. Walker lines: 'qualified to live among your dead' represents Debbie Katz and other m cult victims, who were so brainwashed and confused they killed themselves. Both writings talk to me abou tall the people in this world who have ever stood up for social injustice, crimes against children, and yes, cults and cult leaders.

Instead of discussing the quote, or even the fucking grammar in the quote, nothing got discussed. So fight over handles, monikers, whatever.

I am waiting for some intelligent conversation and humor. I'm really sick of th stupid satsang that premies post here and get away with it. If anything, don't you think SATSANG should be blocked? Maybe I'll use this handle: ' Waiting for Godot.'

BTW, I am not a great Robert Frost fan. I think his poems about nature are cute, but I prefer poetry by Walker, Angelou, Ginsberg, etc. Nature poetry is a bit to gushy for my taste. Besides, Frost beat his kids pretty badly. He was really a rotten bastard of a father, sorry....it's true.

Be well, everybody, I'll get over my little fit, Love, Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 15:50:23 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: All
Subject: Satsang on the Forum
Message:
Hi All,

My question still stands regarding premies coming here to talk about m and k when he's told them not to.

My BIGGEST BEEF about this is that they can't give satsang to eachother or new people so they come here!! No way. The nerve. It's soooo offensive.

Or they come to argue when they don't even know they are in a cult.

I don't take this forum lightly (although the humor is great). The cult is very dangerous because it's a cult! With a leader who is nuts and has power and money. To me this forum represents our ability to communicate with eachother.

Why do we argue? Because we CAN. I don't like the personal insults that folks hurl at eachother, but this kind of talk could never take place over in Enjoying Life or in a community, etc. We are free of the cult, so we act like people in the real world with different viewpoints, experiences and levels of morality and honesty.

That's it for me today! Have a drink--it's on me. (or a puff, if that's your pleasure) :::-)))

Love, Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 16:10:07 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Thanks, Cynthia
Message:
Cynthia,

I don't know if I've told you how much I, like others, appreciate your involvement here. I think you started off on a somewhat confusing basis but ever since you've had so much great stuff to say. Thanks again.

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 09:52:25 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Backlash to My 'Backlash' Post
Message:
Hi Cynthia -
Wow, I probably shouldn't have reacted as I did to whoever posted the insulting message to you with no name and no text. But it just drives me nuts when people make this sort of brainless commentary on the forum, and I'm glad the forum admin is thinking about deleting these kind of anonymous posts. Anyway, I'd like to make it clear to anyone who read my post below that I don't 'suspect' anyone of making that post - sheesh!

I did post this below about the notion that the forum is a cult, and I'll repeat it here:
From day 1, premies and others have labelled this forum as a 'cult'. Fine, if that's what people want to think - I honestly do not care. In my opinion, calling the forum a cult is a 'red herring' which people use to divert attention away from Maharaji's organization.

(In other words, I get sick of talking about whether the forum is a cult or not. I honestly don't think it's all that relevant to the discussion here.)

Cynthia, I did like the quote from Susan B. Anthony a lot - she was a right-thinking person. And, of course, as you said, it can be taken to refer to either premies or ex-premies or anyone who stands against the tide of prevailing opinions or social structures. However, from what you said, you posted it because it's been inspirational to you, and I appreciate that. I think it's an inspiring quote too. I also liked the Walker poem, particularly the lines 'qualified to live among your dead'. That has great personal meaning to me, and thanks for posting it.

Take care -
Love,
Katie

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 09:30:39 (EST)
From: Who really knows
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Backlash to My 'Backlash' Post
Message:
Here is what I wrote when somebody asked if you were really stupid because you denied that ex-premies behave like a cult and encouraged the expremies who fought the bastard premies. Katie and Ana T did not agree. So I asked:
'Do you think this person thinks:
1. Cynthia proves herself to be a cult member?
2, Cynthia does not understand that Susan B when she wrote:
'CAUTIOUS, CAREFUL PEOPLE ALWAYS CASTING ABOUT TO PRESERVE THEIR REPUTATIONS OR SOCIAL STANDARDS NEVER CAN BRING ABOUT REFORM. THOSE WHO ARE WILLING TO BE ANYTHING OR NOTHING IN THE WORLD'S ESTIMATION, AND PUBLICLY AND PRIVATELY, IN SEASON AND OUT, AVOW THEIR SYMPATHIES WITH DESPISED IDEAS AND THEIR ADVOCATES, AND BEAR THE CONSEQUENCES.' , suggest that one should applaud those who dare to speak against the general opinion in a forum?
3. Cynthia is just plain stupid?
4. Cynthia is just brainwashed? '

But if you take that quote and the poem in your post to your hearth, why are you so pissed off when somebody dares to speak against the general opinion in this forum?
I dont mind posting under my real name, but I think it should be one for all and all for one. The Forum would be cleaner and each person would be responsible. And may be some of the threatening from ex-premies to premies would stop.

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 13:26:54 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Who really knows
Subject: Re: Backlash to My 'Backlash' Post
Message:
I dont mind posting under my real name, but I think it should be one for all and all for one. The Forum would be cleaner and each person would be responsible.

Bravo! But don't wait for everyone to do it. Set an example and start posting under your own name now!

John Brauns

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 11:31:45 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: Premies Retaliate
To: Who really knows
Subject: none
Message:
There is a factual documented legal history of premies bashing (with a hammer) 'non-believers' Please quote a legal incidetn where ex-premies physically harmed premies because they were premies
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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 12:02:06 (EST)
From: Who really knows'
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Re: none or some
Message:
There is the fact that one cracy person did that.
By the way I have read threats on my mail and between the lines in the posts. Someone tried to send me a virus attachment. But to be honest there are guys here, with an attitude is of such a kind, that I would not like to meet those persons. Not in the dark anyway.
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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 13:47:45 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Who really knows'
Subject: Re: none or some
Message:
You guys (premies) set the standard - you demand absolute truth that cannot be questioned, please provide an absolute proof as I have done. I can also go do a search on what was done to Ted P. back when he grabbed a few premies. There is no inuendo in what F did. It is the mindset of a cult. Cults commit mass suicide, I fear people that can be led around without thinking in that manner. You are a cult member. I do not want to be one of your victims. I rember the meetings in Denver after Fakirinand - we were 'debriefed' and given answers to questions that hadn't been asked. Same thing after Jonestown, we were told how to talk to our families. Your group by not acting on reports of child molestaion by its 'ministers' is tatamount to tacit approval from the top. If a premie harmed an ex your group would find away to justify it and spirit the gulity out of the country. The day that one of the PAM's gets immunity and testifies is the day your house of cards falls down.
No where are the acts of violence by ex-premies against premies. that act of vilonece agianst someone for their beliefs is yur history, not ours, do not confuse the issue. I have named names please name names of get the fuck out of here and go back to the land of oz and post freely on enjoy life. That is a truly free site -
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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 10:47:41 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Who really knows
Subject: Hey Asshole...
Message:
You sure are one brain addled idiot. Seriously, you 'sound' really scattered and quite stupid in your communications. But never mind, I'd like to address this little point:

And may be some of the threatening from ex-premies to premies would stop.

Listen, asshole, if there's been one rule which has been consistently enforced in all the Ex-Premie Forums, it's the rule whicn BANS THREATS.

It's the only thing which will surely and immeditately get you blocked from posting here. SO WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 12:06:06 (EST)
From: Who really knows?
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: To nice guy gerry from Who really knows Asshole...
Message:
You are the proving something. Or?

Read my post to Ben

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 12:30:25 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Who really knows
Subject: Prove your Allegations or shut up
Message:
You are the proving something. Or?

This is supposed to mean something?

In your reply to Ben, you said one person here threaten you. Am I clear on this? Can you tell us who that person is, and direct us to the post?

You say some one has sent you threatening e-mail. Please post that e-mail on this forum. That way we can help you identify this person and take the appropriate actions against this.

Same deal with the e-mail virus.

You have made some serious allegations. You owe it to us and yourself to back them up with proof and facts. It should be simple enough to do if you are telling the truth.

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 13:05:58 (EST)
From: Who really knows
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: About to prove
Message:
Your attitude and behaviour kind of proves what Ive been tryin to say. But may be YOU dont see that.

It is a delicate situation. If I would do as you say, I would loose my annonymity. So I prefer not to. There are some people I dont really trust.

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 13:20:08 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: RimjobYour MothersCallingYou.com
To: Who really knows
Subject: I knew you couldn't prove it...
Message:
OK pal. I kinda figgered that would be your answer.

Show us the post from this forum where you were threatened in any way by an ex-premie or anyone else. This won't "loose your annonimity" in any way.

.

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 15:19:08 (EST)
From: Who really knows
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: To gerry who doesnt know much
Message:
For one of the threats, ask the Forum admin. They deleted it among with a lot of other stuff. And then I was blamed - someone said I was Ceberus or something.
The attatchment I recognised, so I deleted it.
That is all I want to say.
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Date: Fri, Dec 10, 1999 at 10:19:38 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Who really knows
Subject: I knew you were a liar and a coward, so it's ok (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 09:56:46 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Who really knows
Subject: to who really knows
Message:
Dear WRK -
I have no idea what the anonymous poster was trying to say - they didn't really clarify it, did they?

I think Cynthia addressed the issue of what she meant by the quote very well in her post above - it has personal significance for her. And truthfully, it doesn't bother me when someone speaks against the general opinion in a forum. I have done it myself. What I objected to in the anonymous post (and in your interpretation) was the personal attack/insult and lack of any thoughtful content.

Sincerely,
Katie

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 09:55:30 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: Who really knows
Subject: I Don't Know What the F**k You're Talking About
Message:
Dear Who really nows,

You missed my point altogether. I'm not pissed off because someone expresses themself honestly or even if someone speaks out against the ex-premie forum or me personally. This is an EX-PREMIE forum. But I sense some dishonesty here. From premies especially. The dishonesty comes when a premie is afraid to speak out without fear of consequences about m. Premies can't do that without acknowledging they are in a cult. In FIV, however, ex-premies are very brave about telling their experiences in the cult and calling m a cult leader.

If a premie posts here with 'satsang' I believe it should be blocked. That is not the purpose of this forum. That pisses me off. Giving satsang on this forum is like an oxymoron in action. Conversation is a different thing.

However, I don't believe that blocking a premie's satsang here would be censorship because it is clearly the purpose of the satsang giver to try to use the old method of indoctrination in this forum. I don't feel suseptible to it, I find it offensive. Especially, because they so often try to protect m, or argue over the issue of the cult, I am perplexed that they even post here. No premie has answered my question: Hasn't m told you not to talk about your experience of k and m, and why are you not obeying him?

I am still waiting for an answer to that.

Actually, I did state above that I wasn't all that pissed. I was disappointed that the discussion got so regressive.

Got to go,

Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 10:22:40 (EST)
From: Who really knows?
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: I Don't Know What the F**k You're Talking About
Message:
You wrote:
'No premie has answered my question: Hasn't m told you not to talk about your experience of k and m, and why are you not obeying him?'
Personally I have never heard him say that. I have heard him say that you might bring people to programs in the meaning that they should not be given too many ideas, like in the old days. I hope this is accepted as an answer to your question.
But if premies disobeyed Maharaji, why are you so pissed off?

By the way, there are people who think that this forum like the satsangs in the old days, is brainwashing people. There is given information, true or not true, and that information are repeated over and over again. And expremies are expressing the same stuff daily. That in my opinion is really efficient tools to make people programmed cultmember.

Actually it would be very interesting to have one guy from the Cultwatch or whatever to make a survey on this forum and hear his neutral opinion.

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 10:46:28 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: Who really knows?
Subject: You Don't Really Know, Do You?
Message:
Who really knows?

I have read Visions/EV documents for community contacts that are his edict which very clearly state how premies are to behave. They have been instructed how to present video programs, not to talk about their 'experience' of knowledge in public and to simply hand over a video. If you really want to be a good premie, that's the programme.

Furthermore, I could care less if someone disobeys m. It's just that I was such an obedient ashram premie, I don't understand someone who would bother to take on m as their master and then not listen to his requests. That's all. Disobey him all you want. It's a great sign that you aren't sunk into the deep devotion that got me nothing but hurt, spiritually, physically and emotionally. That's the experience of exiting a cult.

I was close enough on a daily basis with m to know how he works. He actually very transparent. Since I have been able to step back and look at him objectively, instead of through a devotee's eyes and thought process, m stands out as a ridiculous, pathetic person. Someone who never outgrew his childhood narcissism, because about the age kids learn the world doesn't revolve around them, m was crowned LOTU. M's got some major problems and they ain't all financial.

If you liken this forum to satsang, then I have to LOLOLOLOLOL. That notion is even more ridiculous than your idea this is a sect or cult.

After 24 years of m's indoctrination, this forum has been provided for EX-PREMIES, or whatever we wish to call ourselves. Personally, I like that term, because it distinguishes between a premie who doesn't practice video, participation and practice, (spacing out) and one who realizes the truth about m and exits the cult.

You stated 'By the way, there are people who think that this forum like the satsangs in the old days, is brainwashing people.' What people, and what people? And I personally don't give a rats ass. They're wrong--they're premies, right?

If nothing else, it's a support to ex-premies, a place to finally be able to discuss freely our feelings about m and our hurts, as well as the shit he's pulled over the years. I've seen people come and go here and I've been posting for a very short time. I'd also be very interested in having cult--watch's opinion about this forum. (Not a premie pretending to be cult-watch).

Bye, Cynthia

P.S. Why does it bother you so much that this forum exists? Why does it threaten you? Who are you and why are you here?

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 11:48:24 (EST)
From: Who really knows?
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: You Don't Really Know, Do You?
Message:
Those thing you have read are for community contacts. Right? That is about how the local program should be conducted.

What concerns the ashram, I was once told that almost 90 % of ashram premies had broken all the rules in the ashram according to one survey.

For the time being Maharaji to my knowledge only gives 3 rules. They are not difficult to follow. And each person is an individual so it is up to that person. As Maharaji has stated many times: 'If you like it fine, if you dont like it, please leave'

I will never attempt to give satsang here at the Forum. I thought this was about expressing what you think and that this is an open forum.

I think it would be obvious that a neutral person trying to read the posts at the Forum, would think this is a Cult. Very much so.

I do not bother about this forum exists. I know some people here, and I definitely dont like the lack of respect, the dishonesty, the brainwashing, the attacks both regarding premies and Maharaji, the behavior, the tendency to almost never answer questions from premies (I ve read about 100 posts lately that showed that expremies avoid to answer questions from premies)
And sometimes I have witnessed that posts and treads that are not popular, have been deleted.

If Forum would be fair, if people would listen to reason, it would be Ok.But then - I would not come here. If anything, I try to make some balance.

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 12:33:23 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: Who really knows?
Subject: I Know
Message:
Who really knows?

I am not going to get into a pissing match with you about what m says or doesn't tell you premies to do. I don't really give a shit.

Yes, ashram premies broke rules. I never did though. And it wasn't 90% of the ashram premies. Yes, perhaps when they saw that m was giving them the boot from the ashram, people probably said fuck it, or fuck you (to m). I never even smoked a cigarette. Most of my ashram time was spent with m, so I wouldn't have had time to have a smoke because I worked 24-72 hours straight with catnaps.

What survey of ashram premies are you referring to? Produce it, I'd be intested in looking at it.

If you don't like what is said about m here, leave. THIS IS THE EX-PREMIES FORUM. We don't need you and your views. Who gave you the responsibility to 'make some balance.' BTW, you seem to be sliding into a funny accent with the English language suddenly. Again, who are you?

Having spent so much time near m, I guess I have a different understanding of just how strict he is about the directions he gives to people. And he gets pretty pissed off if his directions are not followed.

Now, how would you, being in a cult and not being able to admit it, know what a cult is? How can you label this forum as a cult when you don't even know you are in one?

Those are rhetorical questions. Please don't bother to answer.

Regards, Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 13:45:14 (EST)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Mr. P-A
Message:
Cynthia:

No doubt, this is too little too late, but 'who really knows' is 'bublegum' is 'bim doubtfire.' His broken English (great Marianne Faithfull song, btw) gives him away, together with his singular tunnel vision, on top of which his stated desire to 'make balance' rings a faint bell. He also should win the Mr. Passive-Agressive Award for December, 1999. When the going gets tough, Mr. P-A leaves for a day, only to return under a new moniker, but with the same accent.

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 14:49:35 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: Monmot
Subject: I knew it was Bim........
Message:
Monmot:

.....that's why I told him not to answer my questions!!

Thanks for the info,

Love, Cynthia

T

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 15:01:56 (EST)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: I knew it was Bim........
Message:
Cynthia:

I guess we never have to worry about him answering any questions...just await his next incarnation. :-)

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 13:08:36 (EST)
From: Who really knows?
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: To Cynthia who knows, I will follow your request and not answer.
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 06:14:06 (EST)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The Immaculate Deception
Message:
Ok all you ex-Catholics out there, it's time to go back to church. Today is the Immaculate Conception. I figure that if I bought that pile it's no wonder that I later bought into the idea that God his own self was here and doing business as Guru Maharaj Ji(aka Maharaji).
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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 19:04:48 (EST)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Re: The Immaculate Deception
Message:
As a priest in the Anglican Communion, I must say that I think the Immaculate Conception is a little piece of Roman dogma and not real, but I have also noticed that most people have the Immaculate Conception confused with something else. Just out to curiousity, what is your understanding of the Immaculate Conception?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 06:27:22 (EST)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Re: The Immaculate Deception
Message:
The Blessed Virgin Mary!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 01:49:20 (EST)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Re: The Immaculate Deception
Message:
Michael:

Let's see...the Virgin Birth refers to Mary's (the Mother of God) birth, right? Doesn't the Immaculate Conception refer to Mary's conception of Jesus? My understanding of the esoteric Catholic spin is that Mary was impregnated by Gabriel (I think) through her left ear (I guess when he whispered in her ear to inform her of her impending pregnancy -- talk about Holy Breath!). Forget Roman dogma, that sounds psychotic, but that's the spin I picked up in my 12 years of Catholic school (8 of those years were spent at a school named Immaculate Conception, so you'd think I'd know, but those crazy nuns made it hard to concentrate on religious matters). Esoteric Catholicism is so much more fun than the missionary position style. I think I'm gonna flunk this test...

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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 08:50:49 (EST)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Re: The Immaculate Deception
Message:
Enough is correct; the Immaculate Conception is the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of our Lord and Queen of Heaven. Supposedly, her conception was immaculate and without sin so that she could be Theotokos or God Bearer.
Then, later, she became pregnant by the power of the Holy Spirit, Gabriel announced it but didn't do the deed. There are paintings where Gabriel is talking to Mary, but the Holy Spirit, represented by a dove, is whispering or blowing in her ear. As Monmot said, 'talk about Holy Breath!'
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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 07:53:12 (EST)
From: IsEnuf.com
Email: no
To: Enough
Subject: Re: The Immaculate Deception
Message:
Yes, I totally agree. If only I hadn't eaten the raisins
in raysinbrand.com
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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 03:37:12 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Annie's post from down under
Message:
I had to dig up this post from 'Annie' from the depth of this forum,
in the 'Question to any premie ' thread.

I guess she wrote that post as an answer to my remark

'Informing IS NOT programming.
You've missed one step here!'

That's very true. However, what goes on here bears only the slightest resemblance to 'informing.'

A few examples from scanning this page and your site: The breath is pedestrian, the experience of knowledge is a 'very, very shallow pool,' Maharaji's kids went to private school (morphed into Philips Exeter real quick), his kids are embarrassed about him and playing along for the 'family business', assuming that the fact that someone's name is listed in a corporate filing means ANYTHING, on and on and on. By the way, printing people’s addresses and speculating on their lives, 'status' and motives gives your term 'informing,' a whole different twist. You come off like some strangely obsessed cops, armed with search warrants for the wrong building.

Not to mention an extremely controlled and suspect perspective. A perspective that will not allow or concede ANY qualities to Maharaji at all. Darshan was nothing. Knowledge was snot. Or someone had (has) a few experiences but they were completely unrelated to their relationship with Maharaji. Maharaji is a lousy speaker. Or your assertions of 'how stupid' he is, which only make it clear how little time you spent with him or how little you absorbed when you did. Even if your belief that he's a fraud were true, he'd have pulled off one of the most brilliant and audacious scams imaginable. And on YOU! Even that wouldn't be the work of a 'stupid' man. In my repeated experience, he's both quite astonishingly intelligent by any standard and completely genuine.

You have a different view, you're more than welcome to it. But to call him stupid and make up little names (Rotwat, etc.) you just come off like a classless 3rd grader. When you discuss things like where Shri Maharaji got which technique from, lineage etc. you have no idea how silly you sound. You were in the saddle bags of his camel, I presume? It's a lot of hot air.

This is information? This is wild guessing, filtered through your own quite skewed view of M & K, designed ONLY for the purpose of making him look bad, whether there's any truth to any of it or not. Is that really 'informing?'

No mention, of course, of the fact that this group is tiny and homogenous in relation to the people who still love and take great benefit from Maharaji, and think of him as ANYTHING but an inept teacher. That group is, again, small in comparison with all the people who've had meaningful interaction with Maharaji and don't find themselves in any easy pigeonhole of classification. However, most of those people clearly do NOT share your hatred and venom towards M.

Those are facts.

Now, opinions. It's a good idea in any area of life to try and separate the two. You think his whole 'show' is falling apart? Fine. There'd be many people who just saw and felt the last big event who'd just laugh at that and to whom that sounds like a peculiar form of wishful thinking. You think he's folding his tent? You have no idea what he's doing.

You want it to fail. You want him to be a stupid, inept teacher who has no special qualities and cares only about money. You don't even realize you're insulting yourself! Some guy comes along, people (including him) imply there's something divine or extraordinary about him and you just follow along? How many times has that happened to you? And that guy had no qualities?

Now you think you were hoodwinked but you did recognize something quite real. You think it's all for a bit of cash? Doesn't that strike you, in your heart of hearts or brain of brains, as being just a WEE bit too simplistic? A wee bit too obvious? A wee bit too shallow to explain all that's gone on? Is your memory really that weak? Don't you have an honest answer for why you DID all of that? Or is it too elusive to remember? It could be, I really don't know.

At any given moment, a person can pick up on utterly different stuff than someone else standing 10 feet away. At a given festival, say in the late '70s, one person could be transported into an outrageous, exalted state of being that changes their life and the other could be freaked out by the callousness and moronic nature of the English WPC guy who's asking them to do something stupid as they brandish their walkie-talkie.

I know that for a fact because I've been BOTH of those people and been in both of those states. Thank God I didn't go down the road to hell that fixating on the WPC guy would have taken me. If I had, that might be all I remember about Maharaji today. But I tasted that crap enough to know that it could have been enough to make me walk.

Are you really trying to inform or do you just want a little company in your anger? That's human nature but try to see it for what it is. There's nothing unusual about that at all. The guys in London probably have the right idea...let's get sloshed and dish about people and laugh at how bizarre we were...

I'd merely suggest, Jean-Michel, not attempting to make it any nobler than it is or call your opinions facts. A lot of your facts are garbage. And a few of your 'facts' are so mean-spirited and judgmental that you would NEVER want anyone judging YOU or your loved ones based on those types of tidbits.

Consider it. Enjoy the holidays.

.......

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 04:45:50 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: One simple point
Message:
You say:

When you discuss things like where Shri Maharaji got which technique from, lineage etc. you have no idea how silly you sound. You were in the saddle bags of his camel, I presume? It's a lot of hot air.

The difference between you and me, is that I don't believe 100% of what's been written about Shri Hans' 'search' and gurus in the DLM's litterature (that anyone can read now) and on his sons' websites. I believe a lot of info is missing. Not speaking of the other brother who has another version of the family business. Who's right ? Prempal or Satpal? Why?

I don't believee in his 'divinity' anymore, nor do I believe in the concept of 'satguru'.

Then if he's just a regular Indian guy, there is no problem in trying to analyze his 'teachings' and its sources, listen to what other witnesses say about it (like Juergensmeyer who interviewed Sawan Singh's secretary on the very issue), or what Sitaram said, etc. This is called research, or investigating. And these people's opinions are as valid as yours.

At least we can debate these issues, you don't even try to!!! You merely dismiss the whole thing, saying I was not in his camel's bag! Why? How do you know he was riding a camel, and I was not there?

There's a lot to say on your other points too....

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 17:15:18 (EST)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: One simple point
Message:
'Not speaking of the other brother who has another version of the family business. Who's right ? Prempal or Satpal? Why?'

Frank or Eddie Sinatra? Joni or Eileen (Anderson) Mitchell? Bill or Roger Clinton (don't think about that too long)? Amelia or Janice Earhart? Johann or Günter Bach? Michelle or DeeDee Pfeiffer? Sly or Frank Stallone? Sly or Henry Stone? Jimi or Leon Hendrix? Sean or Gerry Connery? Nelson or Aduki Mandela? Ray or Benny Charles? Brigitte or Mizonou Bardot? Sting or Phillip Sumner? Georgia or Helen O'Keefe? Mozart or Salieri?

It's not as hard to suss out as you make it sound. The kid always had it. The big brother was always second banana...it's a story as old as the hills.

Prempal, in a New York minute.

'Then if he's just a regular Indian guy'

He never seemed like a regular Indian guy to me and still doesn't, not one bit. He doesn’t even really look like an Indian when he’s around Indians.

'listen to other witnesses say about it (like Juergensmeyer who interviewed Sawan Singh's secretary on the very issue) etc. This is called research, or investigating.'

This is called 5 times removed blabber over a what, 50 or 60 YEAR SPAN? Are you kidding me?!? So and so said, 'blah, blah, blah' to somebody in 1938 and they all have their own agendas and lineages to promote, as, so clearly, do you.

No, Jean-Michel, it's more from the guts than that. People either love and recognize a master/teacher based on what they feel, see and intuit, or they don't. If they do, who did what and when, 2 lifetimes ago, means just about nothing. If they don't, it's almost as meaningless, except to use as artillery in creating a mountain of merde, to try and make the teacher look bad. These are merely justifications to support your view, which you are working hard to bolster.

'And these people's opinions are as valid as yours.'

Yes...and just about as timeless.

'You merely dismiss the whole thing, saying I was not in his camel's bag! Why? How do you know he was riding a camel, and I was not there?'

Ok, you got me! I'm curious, how was it in there?

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 17:56:19 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Then, what are you doing here?
Message:
trying to deal with all this BS?

My feeling is you're loosing your time. IF I was still a premie, I wouldn't loose a minute here!

There are lots of beautiful things to do for your beautiful master, and for your true self.

Why don't you spend more time inside? Do you enjoy meditation, or are you one of those premies having a hard time sitting still?

I'm still an instructor, you can tell me, even in private if you want. I promise I won't abuse you.

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 04:13:38 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Annie's post from down under
Message:
Annie,

Good post - lot's of stuff in it. I haven't got time at the moment for a detailed critique, but a couple of points. Firstly, you seem to have picked up on individual exes opinions and assigned those opinions to all of us. Look at my little debate with Jim about the deeper meditation experiences for instance, and I've asked Anth a few times to stop referring to the nectar experience as snot.

Secondly, in the following:-

Some guy comes along, people (including him) imply there's something divine or extraordinary about him and you just follow along? How many times has that happened to you? And that guy had no qualities?

You are the first premie to admit that Maharaji referred to himself as something divine or extraordinary. Now if you could go one step further and admit he referred to himself as God, and allowed us all to believe that for a decade, that would be progress in communication.

John.

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 10:01:11 (EST)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: To JHB
Message:
Since we are revisiting that thread, I just wanted to say that I was happy to see that you were able to discuss the fact that you have had some strongly sprititual experiences (I know you used different words to describe them) from the K techniques. So far, it seems only a few of us are willing to admit to and/or have had these deep experiences and no matter how much I disbelieve M as Lord, I can't deny the techniques have 'worked' for me in producing profound, life changing experiences. I know now that the techniques are not special to him and therefore, the fact that I have the experiences says nothing about him, as I used to believe. This was a major stumbling block for me and I think it may be for some other premies who remain with M. I think to become credible, we need to address this issue or we can be dismissed easily by those premies who stay due to their experience (I know of some). It's there for some of us and just needs to be reframed is all.
I liked Roger's comment about exes willing to ask difficult questions and not accepting lame answers, I totally agree.
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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 13:11:17 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Yes, Grace, and this too...
Message:
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

It seems clear that the techniques 'work' for some. I theorize that these same people would have had 'experiences' of this type even if they NEVER heard of Rawat.

It's also apparent that the techniques DO NOT work for many people.

The other way to have 'experiences' in the cult if meditation failed you was 'DEVOTION.' I'll pass, thank you.

Gerry the non-experiencer but I did see a weird light in the sky while camping in Rhode Island In 1985...

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 13:16:08 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Light in the Sky
Message:
Gerry the non-experiencer but I did see a weird light in the sky while camping in Rhode Island In 1985...

Hey! Don't leave us suspense! Was it a UFO, Santa Claus, The Star of Bethlehem?

John the curious.

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 13:11:05 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Re: To JHB
Message:
I agree 100%. I don't know what the experiences mean, but they are the sort of thing that can potentially give people 'Saul on the road to Damascas' conversions. And the conversion would be to whatever the person thinks caused the experiences. Someone from a Christian background would become a more committed Christian, same for a Bhuddist, etc. If that person has just gone through several months of indoctrination about Maharaji and knowledge, then devotion to Maharaji would be strengthened. Fortunately, it seems most premies don't have such profound experiences at the beginning, or even at all, and can therefore easily drift away.

John.

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 13:42:59 (EST)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: To JHB
Message:
I know people in different religious groups have these experiences and yes, it does strengthen their belief. I, unfortunately, had one at my Knowledge session and off I ran toward M's lotus feet...
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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 15:35:24 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: Grace
Subject: Re: Experiences
Message:
Dear Grace,

Thank you for your posts. I too, have had strong experiences using the k techniques, I would never diminish any experience someone has

I have to remember that at the time I received k, the aspirant indoctrination program had plenty of time for me to 'fall in love with' and have 'devotion' for m. I meditated a lot, but my focus was primarily on m. So I now believe that many times my mediation experiences were experiences of trance and/or dissociation. I'm sure many premies dissociated during those marathon satsang meetings, retreats, etc. Looking back at those times, now I remember feeling like jumping out of my skin!

Interestingly, I was browzing through the cult watch type web sites (can't remember right now which one) and came across a section about cults and dissociation. It was stated that cults which are involved in using trance-like states or meditation, can result in ex-members experiencing dissociative disorders during and after leaving. The connection between meditation/trance and dissociation rang true for me. I am an expert at dissociating because I have been doing it all my life (MPD).

Yet because I am so close to integration, I can see now how the auto-hypnosis a child uses to protect themself from abuse (through dissociation and/or splitting in extreme cases) is very similar to that of cult members. The abuse might not be physical, but the emotional and spiritual abuse, not to mention the betrayal, is more than enough to cause PTSD, dissociative states, as well as a world of mind twisted thought systems to unravel.

I'm pretty angry at m today. His mind-fucking operation took a lot of my life away.

Be well, love, Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 04:04:57 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Ick!
Message:
Hasn't Annie visited us using a different handle. She's good, real good. Ought to be paid by EV.

Ok, I followed the whole thing. Again, it was good. Without stretching myself I can see where she's coming from. Yet, I also see that once you start asking hard questions and you stop accepting lame answers you soon become a non-believer. Whether we've got all the right answers and facts is a hit or miss proposition since Maharaji is very tight fisted with what information he is willing to reveal. We can only attempt to put together the picture with what we know. And the forum is good for that because many people come together to share their various perspectives. It's the best that we can do.

I think, however, that Annie does have one fact completely incorrect and that is this:

No mention, of course, of the fact that this group is tiny and homogenous in relation to the people who still love and take great benefit from Maharaji, and think of him as ANYTHING but an inept teacher. That group is, again, small in comparison with all the people who've had meaningful interaction with Maharaji and don't find themselves in any easy pigeonhole of classification. However, most of those people clearly do NOT share your hatred and venom towards M.

Yes, while we on the Internet might be small in number, the number of people who have left Maharaji has got to be 90% or better. I suspect that if the 90% who left Maharaji had Internet access and did a search for Maharaji that they would end up agreeing with us. And, we've seen exactly that happen time and time again.

Annie, many, many people left Maharaji long ago and probably have not given him a second thought. Again, it is very interesting when they do stumble upon the ex-premie webpages and add their two cents. Maybe they hang around for awhile or maybe they don't.

More importantly, it would appear that Maharaji's recent and renewed efforts to propagate Knowledge in the West has failed and the new Persons With Knowledge (PWKs) quickly leave for whatever reason - probably because they finally see the huge devotional aspect to the Master was not as advertised. Tell us, Annie, how many people in the West received Knowledge in 1999? I'd say not too many.

Besides, having large numbers of people does not mean you are right.

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 10:23:42 (EST)
From: who knows
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Ick!-to Roger
Message:
Roger, you write:
'Besides, having large numbers of people does not mean you are right. '

i would add:

since you admit that 'large numbers' don't mean anything, having large numbers of people 'leave' does not mean you are wrong...

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Date: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 00:50:01 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: who knows
Subject: Whatever you say, Bim (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 04:18:13 (EST)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Ick!
Message:
Hasn't Annie visited us using a different handle. She's good, real good

Yup Rog, she's the best I've seen.

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 00:54:42 (EST)
From: forum friends
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Bobbys thread
Message:
Any chance of an update on Bobby or a visit
by him?
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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 18:25:03 (EST)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: forum friends
Subject: Re: Bobbys thread
Message:
Howdy forum friends!

I'm doing pretty good physically. According to the radiologist I'm a data 'outliner', ie, someone who doesn't fit the datapoint distribution regarding response to treatment. And I'm an outliner in a positive sense.

I was very close to death in more than one way; during a stint in the hospital I was given benadryl on top of large doses of morphine. If my dear friend had not been sitting there, to see me slip into coma and alert the nurses, I'd be dead. The cancer itself brought me close to death. I think that if I had not accepted the radiation and chemo I'd be dead.

I've had some powerful spiritual and emotional experiences with all of this. I'm grateful to be alive.

Thanks for asking.

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 07:55:58 (EST)
From: Bobby's house
Email: no
To: forum friends
Subject: Re: Bobbys thread
Message:
ask and U will receive..mite have 2 wait a while
mite even be a long,long time
sorry.com
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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 16:03:07 (EST)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Bobby's house
Subject: Re: Bobbys thread
Message:
Bobby if this is you Forum Friends must have been reading my mind. I've been thinking of you.
Love from Selene
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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 18:33:40 (EST)
From: bobby
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: Re: Bobbys thread
Message:
Hi Lady Selene!
I always think of moon-goddess when I hear your name.

Actually I think it is near new moon. I know ramadan starts on Friday and that event is marked by the new crescent moon appearing on the horizon.

Don't know who 'Bobby's house' is.

Nice to hear from you. I haven't been around the forum but just stopped in briefly. These days I think Dave's hell is more my speed for ex-premie discourse.

Hope you are well and happy.

Love,

Bobby

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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 19:24:43 (EST)
From: selene/evelina
Email: None
To: bobby
Subject: good! see you in Hell
Message:
That's where I am hanging out too. Odd that it is so much nicer in Hell. Stay tuned for the House of Hexcess.
My almanac of goddesses says this time is for introspection and to take ginko for our poor abused brains and hawthorne tea or tincture for the heart.
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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 22:37:30 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: selene/evelina
Subject: Re: good! see you in Hell
Message:
Bobby, are you using a lot of aliases in hell?
Or are you about to start posting there?
Anyway, very good to read your post, glad you are having
your life saved! and that it is looking positive for you.
I am glad you have been someone I have read so much of.
By the way other than I think the oneness is self aware,
and I am not sure where you are with that, I am finding
myself moving in some of your other preferences.
OR, to put it more your way, modalities.
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Date: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 23:37:37 (EST)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Re: good! see you in Hell
Message:
Actually I didn't post there yet. Don't even know if I will. Many of the posts here on forum 4 are not what I relate to. I just like many of the folks here and just want to talk personally but that doesn't seem to be happening much.

Actually I did post today on the ex-premie forum but for some reason my name didn't come across and the post was posted as anonymous. The post was under the Sang real thread.

I still think everyone is hallucinating, ie caught in the profound illusion. I'm comfortable with various deities, some of whom I felt were very present with my cancer ordeal. I related particulary with

tara - Tibetan goddess of compassion, healing and longevity;

vajrasattva - Tibetan god of purification and original energy

Jesus - I particularly related to his trials in the garden. I wanted to avoid the radiation with 'Father if it be possible, take this from me.' I have a Guatemalan picture of Jesus praying with an angel of God in the garden that is very special to me.

I continue with Tara goddess practice that I do everyday. Mantra and visualization. A friend I communicated with while in the worst of the treatments died at the time of AIDS. I was honored and amazed when he left for me a gift of a Tibetan skull mala, a string of prayer beads in the shapes of little skulls made from human bone. This for me is a potent reminder of impermanence and death.

What modalities are you moving in Bill?

Lately I was very moved to read 'Wheel of Life', an autobiography of Elizabeth Kubler-Ross. She's another nut who is a heroine of mine. She faced enormous difficulties in her life and found herself learning through the difficulties. For instance, her project of a sanctuary for AIDS babies in rural Virginia was burned to the ground by some locals. She lost everything.

By the way, I don't know if the 'oneness' is self-aware or not. I don't think about it. I do think about the presence that I met 30 years ago during my NDE. I don't know if she is a he or a she but I think of her as a Goddess who has ultimately protected me and gotten me through to here. Tara.

Actually I'm still going through quite a bit in some ways. Life is a dynamic adventure and sometimes is very difficult. Please understand that I may not be able to sustain a heavy conversation. I don't have the energy or inclination.

Take care Bill. Nice hearing from you.

Bobby

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