Bim Doubtfire -:- Are ex-premies a sect or a cult? -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 09:45:46 (EST)

__ Runamok -:- Could you look at how you aren't for real, Bimbo? -:- Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 00:59:49 (EST)

__ 2COOL4 U -:- Re: Are ex-premies a sect or a cult? -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 11:39:41 (EST)

__ __ Bim Doubtfire -:- 2 2 cool 4 me? -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 15:45:24 (EST)

__ gerry -:- Is Bimmie a pederast or just a wannabe? -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 11:27:58 (EST)

__ __ Bim Doubtfire -:- Re: Bimmie is not a pederast or just a wannabe? -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 11:56:29 (EST)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Exuse me if I don't take anything you say seriously -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 12:08:24 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Bim Doubtfire -:- Re: Exuse me if I don't take anything you say seriously -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 12:23:29 (EST)

Nigel -:- Finding a use for Maharaji quotes -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 06:34:51 (EST)

__ bb -:- Re: Finding a use for Maharaji quotes -:- Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 02:34:50 (EST)

__ Nick Danger, Third Eye -:- Re: Finding a use for Maharaji quotes -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 10:22:36 (EST)

__ JHB -:- OT I need your address.... -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 06:49:54 (EST)

__ __ nigel -:- still fixing the HTML... -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 06:59:09 (EST)

AJW -:- Maharaji- Part human, Part potato -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 06:09:05 (EST)

__ bb -:- Re: Maharaji- Part human, Part potato -:- Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 02:41:28 (EST)

Mickey the Pharisee -:- Happy Thanksgiving Day -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 00:16:33 (EST)

__ Katie -:- To you & yours too, Mickey (nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 10:44:53 (EST)

N X -:- Alan Imbarrato is an asshole -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 22:18:06 (EST)

__ heartmath master:) -:- Re: Alan Imbarrato is an asshole -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 22:21:48 (EST)

__ __ gerry -:- Give it up, Runamok -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 11:32:18 (EST)

__ __ __ Runamok -:- a stochastic theoretician, maybe -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 23:42:16 (EST)

JHB -:- Can anyone see a conflict here? -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 20:35:03 (EST)

__ Jean-Michel -:- The truth about this is here -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 13:16:39 (EST)

__ Mel Bourne -:- Re: Can anyone see a conflict here? -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 06:19:39 (EST)

__ __ gerry -:- Standard Maharajia Apologia -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 11:15:00 (EST)

__ __ Katie -:- Re: Can anyone see a conflict here? -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 11:07:24 (EST)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- The scum of the earth -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 07:17:28 (EST)

__ __ AJW -:- Old Maharaji New Maharaji -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 07:01:22 (EST)

__ __ JHB -:- Re: Can anyone see a conflict here? -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 06:28:03 (EST)

__ I`ll be watching you -:- May be there is no conflict? -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 05:01:08 (EST)

__ Joey -:- Re: From a cultic perspective...no problemo:) -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 21:55:45 (EST)

j.garcia -:- surprised -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 17:29:28 (EST)

__ JHB -:- Re: surprised -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 17:42:26 (EST)

JW -:- The Need To Protect Maharaji -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 16:22:48 (EST)

__ Jean-Michel -:- What's obvious for me now -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 17:57:13 (EST)

__ JHB -:- They need to protect themselves -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 17:18:28 (EST)

__ Joey -:- Re: The Need To Protect Maharaji -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 17:13:09 (EST)

__ __ JW -:- Re: The Need To Protect Maharaji -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 18:30:16 (EST)

__ __ __ Joey -:- Re: The Need To Protect Maharaji -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 20:14:43 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia G. -:- Another Perspective -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 12:32:34 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Cynthia, your insight is so much appreciated....great post!! (nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 18:24:36 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- It's a ***Best*** -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 16:51:27 (EST)

JHB -:- Video Events to Finish!!!! -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 06:11:39 (EST)

__ bb -:- Time to expand ex-premie org to the sky -:- Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 02:49:16 (EST)

__ Enough -:- M's Bunker Mentality/Exit Strategy -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 05:05:49 (EST)

__ JW -:- Follow The Money -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 14:36:09 (EST)

__ Sir Dave -:- The boredom threshold -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 08:23:15 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia G. -:- I Saw This Coming....... -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 09:52:33 (EST)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- End of the Raw-rat's cult! -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 10:02:26 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- What about the demonstration we've been planning? -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 14:58:19 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Agent Dave -:- Re: What about the demonstration we've been planning? -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 20:23:11 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Agent Dave again -:- Something leaked -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 21:16:59 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger 006.5 eDrek -:- Re: Something leaked -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 22:01:07 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ My Guess -:- Re: What about the demonstration we've been planning? -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 21:07:06 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Agent Dave -:- Out with a whimper -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 21:19:53 (EST)

Just Surfn -:- A bit like the ashram -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 22:38:17 (EST)

RT -:- y2k scary update: 4 get M -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 18:14:25 (EST)

__ JW -:- Is The US Navy Thinks Its Going To Happen...What Else Is There To Say? -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 17:14:01 (EST)

__ Roger Bombshelter Salesman eDrek -:- HOGWASH! -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 02:36:25 (EST)

__ __ rt -:- Re: Carma wash -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 14:07:15 (EST)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: HOGWASH! -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 04:34:47 (EST)

__ __ __ RT -:- Re: HOGWASH! -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 14:11:29 (EST)

__ __ __ __ bb -:- Re: HOGWASH! -:- Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 04:02:15 (EST)

__ dv -:- Me? I'm going to do -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 21:34:42 (EST)

__ __ JW -:- Get Some Cash Out Of the ATM and Fill Your Bathtub With Water......... -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 17:16:42 (EST)

__ __ __ Katie -:- Don't forget coffee, cat food, and cigarettes, either -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 12:56:59 (EST)

__ __ RT -:- Re: What Me Worry? -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 14:13:34 (EST)

__ Sir Dave -:- Re: y2k scary update: 4 get M -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 20:02:53 (EST)

__ __ RT -:- Re: y2k scary update: 4 get M -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 14:53:14 (EST)

__ __ __ bb -:- Re: y2k scary update: 4 get M -:- Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 04:05:12 (EST)

__ JHB -:- A detailed critique -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 18:39:08 (EST)

__ __ RT -:- Re: A detailed sentence -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 14:56:33 (EST)

__ __ __ JHB -:- Re: A detailed sentence -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 15:19:30 (EST)

JHB -:- No hate and little anger -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 17:25:45 (EST)

__ Nigel -:- They need us to be full of hate -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 08:51:55 (EST)

__ Helen -:- Re: No hate and little anger -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 18:08:12 (EST)

__ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Hi Helen -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 00:12:54 (EST)

Gabriel Golden -:- The source of Prempal's power -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 17:23:17 (EST)

__ Katie -:- Re: The source of Prempal's power -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 09:55:42 (EST)

__ JW -:- Re: The source of Prempal's power -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 01:51:23 (EST)

__ __ JW -:- Re: The source of Prempal's power -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 02:11:27 (EST)

__ Sir Dave -:- Re: The source of Prempal's power -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 21:50:53 (EST)

__ JHB -:- Re: The source of Prempal's power -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 17:30:23 (EST)

__ __ gerry -:- And I was expecting Gabrial JHS... -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 21:05:48 (EST)

Roger eDrek -:- Emails from Bim and somebody else -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 15:11:54 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- Download Page Updated -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 11:07:37 (EST)

JHB -:- Pal versions of LOTU Video -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 07:50:07 (EST)

__ Nigel -:- Me, me, me..! -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 22:44:27 (EST)

__ Charlie -:- Re: Pal versions of LOTU Video -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 13:55:39 (EST)

__ Katie -:- US/Canadian version of LOTU Video -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 11:04:28 (EST)

__ __ JW -:- It Also Shows M Hit In His Chubby Face With A Pie -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 12:48:11 (EST)

JHB -:- Maharaji as an Investor -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 05:57:22 (EST)

__ Mel Bourne -:- Re: Maharaji as an Investor -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 07:24:21 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia G. -:- Yeah, I Can Name a Few -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 09:12:32 (EST)

__ __ __ Mel, you stupid jerk, -:- Why won't you address Cynthia's posts on M's $ corruption? (NT) -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 11:58:00 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: Why won't you address Cynthia's posts on M's $ corruption? (NT) -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 12:55:12 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- What you could say.... -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 14:04:15 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- More said......... -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 05:45:46 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: More said......... -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 06:19:53 (EST)

__ __ __ URL -:- To Mel -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 19:42:52 (EST)

__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Wallow wallow -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 11:39:00 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Mel to URL -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 11:27:11 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Susan to Mel -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 11:48:34 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Mel to Susan -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 12:36:32 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Susan to Mel -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 13:18:23 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Roger - Mel and Susan **BEST OF FORUM** ? -:- Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 11:27:31 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Katie -:- reply to URL -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 10:30:06 (EST)

__ __ __ __ A premie friend -:- Re: To Mel -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 21:01:42 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: To URL -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 20:39:55 (EST)

__ __ __ Susan -:- Re: Yeah, I Can Name a Few -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 11:04:08 (EST)

__ __ __ __ gerry -:- You dumb shit, Mel -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 11:19:19 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: You dumb shit, Mel -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 20:15:00 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia G. -:- Miragi and Wealth -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 12:13:15 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- The Arrogance of Those Who Get Wealth For Doing Nothing -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 13:00:13 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Charlie -:- Re: The Arrogance of Those Who Get Wealth For Doing Nothing -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 15:41:20 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PCH Mole -:- Slave wages at the residence -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 15:19:50 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: Slave wages at the residence -:- Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 16:26:39 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia G. -:- Re: The Arrogance of Those Who Get Wealth For Doing Nothing -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 14:42:22 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Hey , have we forgotten... -:- Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 20:23:44 (EST)

Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 09:45:46 (EST) From: Bim Doubtfire Email: bim_doubtfire@hotmail.com To: All Subject: Are ex-premies a sect or a cult? Message:

Is God all-powerful? I don’t know. I don’t even know if He / It exists. The prayer I posted the other day had an ashram look alike form, since most of the people posting in this Forum sound like ex-ashram premies. So I thought the words were appropriate. Back to my question: In the Cassel Concise Dictionary, there are following definitions concerning cult and sect: I suppose if a group of people has even one meaning of the definitions, they are in reality a sect or a cult: Sect n. 1 (usu. derog.) a body of persons who have separated from a larger body, esp. an established Church, on account of philosophical or religious differences. 2 a religious denomination, a nonconformist church (as regarded by opponents). 3 the body of adherents of a particular philosopher, school of thought etc. 4 a party, a faction. Cult n. 1 a system of religious belief. 2 the rites and ceremonies of any system of belief. 3 a sect regarded as unorthodox or harmful to its adherents. 4 an intense devotion to a person, idea etc., usu. by a specific section of society. 5 the object of such devotion. 6 an intense fad or fashion. I would say for ex-premies according to these definitions, there are more than one reason to state that 'ex-premies' in reality has formed a sect and a cult. I admit so do premies. But I disagree that Knowledge is a sect or a cult like Maharaji many times has stated. Any discussion about this? I would have been pleased if ex-premies would stick to what is written and do no longer question me or if I am for real. Please stick to what I am writing. By the way, I like some people sense of humor, but I am sorry to say that I am neither Dutch nor Indian. It strikes my mind what might happen if this forum or sect continues for a few years: May be in the future, some mother / father / husband or wife, might be concerned that their dear ones are a member of the “ex-premie sect”. May be they`ll be concerned that their dear ones waste so much time pursuing their mission in this 'sect”. They might consult a deprogrammer therapist in order to deprogram their minds. It seems to me that both some premies and ex-premies seem to be addicted to this Forum. To prove my point about the addiction, I am willing to make a bet: Ill bet: 1000 $ to the benefit of the 'ex-premie' site if: Nigel, Cynthia. Katie, Jim, Sir Dave, Roger drek, Joey, JHR, anth, Jean Michal, and some others do not manage to keep away from this Forum for let us say 2 weeks. Reading from the time they seem to spend here, one might think that they had no job. Willing to take my bet? Best regards Bim Ps. I am sorry I was too weak to stay away.

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Date: Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 00:59:49 (EST) From: Runamok Email: None To: Bim Doubtfire Subject: Could you look at how you aren't for real, Bimbo? Message:

'Bim Doubtfire': I didn't see the movie, but wasn't it called 'Mrs. Doubtfire' where Robin Williams played a woman (can't remember the exact title)? Doesn't seem like a straightshooting pseudonym to me. Catch my drift on this? Since your command of the English language doesn't seem native, you could show us your heartfelt good faith and telling us your nationality. Don't do anything rash on my acount, however. I would have no prob picking a thou up for the forum in the manner you describe, but frankly, why the hell would I trust you? By the way, other premies have made similar promises to exes on the forum which were not kept. I don't usually talk to premies online, but I hate to see our energy pissed away to satisfy your urges for liquid. A sect implies either a subset of an existing group (i.e. a group of monks within Catholicism) or an opposing view within a larger subset (Protestants who deviated from Catholics within Christianity). We are consensually (not 100%) opposed to 'Maharaji', as opposed to either of the above examples. The U. of Va. website is accurate, IMO, in its consideration of us as the anti-Elan Vital movement. Because our unity is about our opposition to ol' Mirage, it's going to be difficult to stick us with the cult thing. Likewise, our use of the word cult is stated specifically in the post-60's sociological sense of numerous 'spiritual' teachings that have sprung up specifically enriching and empowering Machiavellian con artists with a talent for seeking out easy marks en masse. We are a community of people who are opposed to Maharaji and who wish to expose him and stop him if possible. Personally, when I decided to post on the forum, I spent two months reading it almost daily before I chose to burden people with my thoughts and feelings about a guru I had left behind in 1981. Could you consider some kind of similar consideration for our needs and wants before continuing to post here? Grammar check would help too.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 11:39:41 (EST) From: 2COOL4 U Email: None To: Bim Doubtfire Subject: Re: Are ex-premies a sect or a cult? Message:

Hey Bim, Happy Turkey Day. We come here as long as it takes to get through breaking away the aenesthetized, sanitized, cult mindset and re-entry into the world of the 'Living'. Don't need your K either;-) 2C4U

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 15:45:24 (EST) From: Bim Doubtfire Email: None To: 2COOL4 U Subject: 2 2 cool 4 me? Message:

Hi too cool for me? Happy thanksgiving. We do not celebrate thanksgiving in my country. You said: 'We come here as long as it takes to get through breaking away the aenesthetized, sanitized, cult mindset and re-entry into the world of the 'Living'.' What do you really mean? For yourself, for other people, or for me? May be it would be a great thing if everybody could let go of their ideas? Best regards and happy thanksgiving Bim

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 11:27:58 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Bim Doubtfire Subject: Is Bimmie a pederast or just a wannabe? Message:

So Bim, when you were a teenager, you had ''sexual feelings'' for a FIVE YEAR OLD GIRL?!? This is truly sick and demented. People don't usually outgrow these perversions and most eventually act upon them. So Bim, how many children have you raped? You certainly are in the right cult. They hide and protect people like you.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 11:56:29 (EST) From: Bim Doubtfire Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: Bimmie is not a pederast or just a wannabe? Message:

Dear Gerry As I have stated many times, I am only grateful that I never had any such feelings as you mentioned, since I was a kid. And since I am 52, I dont think such feelings will ever arise in my life. The other things you write, tell a great deal about yourself Best regards Bim

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 12:08:24 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Bim Doubtfire Subject: Exuse me if I don't take anything you say seriously Message:

Because you originally pretended not to be able to write English, pretending to be some non English speaking person. Since you've now proven that that was all a sham, nothing you say has any credence. By the way, unless you're dead, I'm sure you'll still have sexual desires at seventy two. I think your mention of how you felt as a teenager was a brave red herring (work THAT out). We were talking about Jagdeo who was running an organised and calculated plan of getting children to have sex with. He coerced and made these children have sex with him against their will. There's nothing nice about that.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 12:23:29 (EST) From: Bim Doubtfire Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: Exuse me if I don't take anything you say seriously Message:

Dear Sir Dave My improved English is due to that I am able to use the spelling control if I want to. I have never pretending anything you say. I really think if Jagdeo has done what you say he has, he should go to jail. What I tried to make a point of, was that there are some people in this world who has sexual tendencies, which are criminal. Why some people have these tendencies, I dont know. I also tried to make a point that it sounds strange if you judge one person for what another has done. And if someone has not done anything wrong, I dont think he should be judged. Best regards Bim

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 06:34:51 (EST) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: All Subject: Finding a use for Maharaji quotes Message:

Down below, Nick Danger asked me for a book snippet that included M's dietary wisdom. The following extract comes from a much longer piece entitled 'Vegan Values and Vegatative Thinking' - too long to post here. (I will give a web-link soon.) The article challenges what I see as four flawed assumptions about vegetarianism. I have called these 'the Argument from supposition', 'the Argument from sentiment', 'the Argument from stupidity' and 'the Argument from whatever else you can come up with'. (Guess where M fits in...) The Argument from Stupidity 'We are not born to eat meat!' (Animal Liberation Front slogan) So to the question of what are humans are meant to eat (the Argument from Stupidity). 'Natural' (along with 'energy' and 'vibration') is among the most misused words in the language, especially as defined in the new age lexicon. I once owned a vegan cookbook entitled Nature's Foods , by Peter Deadman and Karen Betteridge, which takes food-freakery a way down the path towards obsession. Having eliminated animal products from their recipes and replaced them with the resistible delights of tamari, tahini, miso, mouli, millet and the ubiquitous soy bean, Deadman and Betteridge scour their larders for further suspect foodstuffs then solemnly inform the reader that both potatoes and tomatoes should be avoided, since they are of the same family as the deadly nightshade, and the authors find the effects of eating these vegetables deadening. (I say potato, you say potentially lethal, I say tomato, you say to hell with 'em.) It is hard to argue with this kind of metaphorical madness, but the example perhaps illustrates what the rationalist is up against when dealing with pseudoscientific or superstitious thinking. Speaking of which, here is the new age cult leader offering his own Argument from Stupidity. (If I have quoted at some length, I trust that the reader will derive some amusement from this intriguing nutritional discussion.) Guru Maharaj Ji: People will watch television and they see those cowboy movies, and cowboys used to take raw meat and eat that, and they get like that. They got like animals and they used to kill anyone around. How you eat, so you become. See, the way you eat, the way you become. And that's why I want there should be much less food, because that makes you more active. If you just think about eating, eating, eating, you will get lazy like an animal. Eat less, it will make you more active. Maharaj Ji, does it make a difference if a person eats meat or not ? Does it affect their Meditation. I know one thing - 'what you eat, so you become'. I say from experience. I'll tell you one thing, since it's not meant for human beings to eat meat and there's a very logical explanation - may be you even know it. You know, it's like people or the beings that are supposed to eat meat, like cats, lions or animals like that, they always lick water. They don't, they don't suck water. They always lick it. They take their tongue out like that. You have seen how a cat drinks water and how a dog drinks it. But beings that suck water don't eat meat. And that's the way it's supposed to be. And man sucks water - does not lick water, since he is not supposed to eat meat. And God has provided him and made him the king of all nature - not to kill other beings, but to...  He has given all the fruits in the world, anything he wants, a big head up here ….. so he has just to utilize everything. And try to understand the beauty and to grasp the beauty of the fruits God has given us. Because I'll tell you, it's really healthy too. Body can just really accept it. And that's the way it is. Yes ? Why wouldn't you say that when you pick a plant you are killing the plant too ? I mean... Well, because that's, that's the thing; that little killing is meant to be for you. And that's O.K A plant still has consciousness. Guru Maharaj Ji: A plant has consciousness, but where is the consciousness? I don't know. Guru Maharaj Ji: See, this is the thing. Where is the consciousness? The root. Guru Maharaj Ji: The root is the consciousness, but where does the consciousness actually lie ? Because root, if you take root itself, it's in a seed. You see, there is a little explanation to that. If you are eating meat, you are eating out of a being, right ? Like supposedly, some people eat cow, right? Cow comes from life, a mother. Right ? And that also come from a life, and it's a life to a life to a life circle. But a plant does not come from a life. It comes from dead, from a seed which is dead. It doesn't need any nutrition. It's a dead seed. When you plant it, and that's when it becomes (alive), for it to grow, and to give you fruits. What if you eat an animal that comes from a seed? I mean, an animal.. Guru Maharaj Ji: Well, I wouldn't object to... Q: You could call an egg a seed. A chicken comes from an egg; an egg is a seed. Isn't it? Is an egg alive? The one you buy in a store? Guru Maharaj Ji: No. The egg is killed already. Then... see, it's like, it's not like a seed. Still it isn't like a seed. Because seed is inert, dead. Clearly, if 'how you eat, so you become', Guru Maharaj Ji subsists on a diet of fruitcake, nuts and crackers… But the guru's words typify with - let's face it - awe-inspiring ignorance the inexplicably persuasive thought patterns that guide many a claimant to culinary moral superiority. It works like this: say any old rubbish - if it is ancient wisdom then so much the better. If it is sufficiently plausible for the willing minds of your followers to take on board then that's good enough. At least, it would seem, the fructarian can stop worrying about those pips. I have avoided the use of the word carnivore as not all meat eaters are carnivore - and we are not carnivores. We would be as hard-pressed to find optimal nutrition in meat alone as the vegan is from vegetables alone. All the best evidence points to us being omnivores. (Omnivore is possibly a misnomer, since we can't literally eat everything: gravel, cardboard and Chicken McNuggets proving especially taxing on the tastebuds and digestion.) We have the guts of an omnivore. And we have the teeth of an omnivore: incisors for nibbling, canines for ripping and molars for grinding - except, that is, for vegans whose possession of teeth is primarily for the (weeping, wailing and) gnashing thereof. Rats are omnivores and we, like rats, are subject to a phenomenon known as sensory specific satiety, the name given to our tendency to quickly tire of any food that is eaten on its own. Le Magnen [7] found that simply by injecting rats' food with a variety of flavours, the rats would eat from two to three times as much of the same food as rats given (the same) food containing one flavour only. If our evolution teaches us anything about what an omnivore should eat it is only that we should consume a broad range of foodstuffs to prevent our diets becoming deficient in important vitamins, minerals or sources of protein. All restrictive diets carry a risk of nutritional deficiency and, unless embarked upon for sound medical reasons, are best avoided. And all cults, meanwhile, carry a risk of terminal mind-rot and are best avoided, with or without sound medical opinion.

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Date: Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 02:34:50 (EST) From: bb Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Re: Finding a use for Maharaji quotes Message:

I read his stuff like that and I just shake my head and have a deep mental tremor and think 'I must be and have been an total retard' and have to review my memory to search out the programming that tricked me. I remember some of it and realize again how it was for us and take the blame off me. He is approaching people still and he is still a case of abuse and fraud in evolution. It looks like you are taking requests for subject matter that you cover. If that is the case, I remember thinking a few weeks ago 'I wish Nigel would analize some more subjects' and one of them was......contempt. Or maybe that word is not the right one. You did a number on -humility-. Is there an angle on the perpetrators viewpoint that you can use as a springboard to analyze? I havent said this very well but I know you will be able to get it anyway. Kindly post any major analysis posts also over on the x's only forum.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 10:22:36 (EST) From: Nick Danger, Third Eye Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Re: Finding a use for Maharaji quotes Message:

Dear Nigel: Thanks. My favorite line: 'Well, because that's, that's the thing; that little killing is meant to be for you. And that's O.K.' This Bud's for you, too. I remember a story premies were told when they asked why M could eat meat and fish, but they could not. Evidently, if M ate a fish, he would be able to pull it out of his mouth in full fish form, and since premies weren't able to do that, we weren't allowed to eat fish. (I did wonder, though, in my sick little mind, that if M ate a burger, if he'd be able to pull a cow out of his mouth. I should have listened to those aberrant thoughts.) Talk about a group psychosis, it all looks and sounds like an R. Crumb cartoon.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 06:49:54 (EST) From: JHB Email: brauns@dircon.co.uk To: Nigel Subject: OT I need your address.... Message:

....to send you the LOTU video! John. PS How did you get M's words to go outside the text box?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 06:59:09 (EST) From: nigel Email: None To: JHB Subject: still fixing the HTML... Message:

But I don't know how to get rid of that great gap in the middle. Any experts out there? I'll email you my address. Thanks.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 06:09:05 (EST) From: AJW Email: anthginn@yahoo.com To: Mel and All Subject: Maharaji- Part human, Part potato Message:

In a post below, Mel said, ‘This certainly has changed over the years, whether this change resulted because he no longer believed in his own 'divinity' or he saw the premie belief in his 'divinity' as an obstruction to the promotion of knowledge, or for any other reason, I don't know. The fact is, though, he does now present himself as a human being promoting something that he feels is very important. No complicating 'divinity' issues these days. Some premies may still believe this, others may not, but it's not really an issue in the experience of knowledge. ‘ This is an interesting statement from Mel, particularly the bit about Maharaji ‘now presenting himself as a human being’. What did he present himself as before- a vegetable, maybe. Was anyone ever in doubt that he was a human being? He’s always had the standard issue of arms, legs, body hair etc as the rest of us upright mammals. But what Mel is implying here is that all this stuff about Maharaji being God and Perfect Master is now water under the bridge, and he’s got down off his throne and rejoined us imperfect mortals. This is simply not true. Neither Maharaji, nor anyone around him, believes he’s a ‘normal human being’ (and I suspect Mel doesn’t either. Would you line up and kiss his feet, for example Mel?) The name of the game is ‘God walking around in a human body, in all his divinity. Just like Jesus and Buddha.’ Maharaji believes this, take a look at his website to get an idea of how he sees himself. The people running Elan Vital, and the people around Maharaji, all believe he’s the ‘Perfect Master’. Lots of old time premies still believe, ‘God is Great, but Maharaji is Greater.’ And here lies the leak that is sinking the ship. There’s a bunch of old timers, who sat through months of nightly brainwashing sessions in the 70s. We were told night after night that Maharaji was the Lord, and we were ‘sticks of incense burning at his feet’ or whatever. Those old timers who are left still believe this. New people come along, and buy the ‘inner peace’ ‘four techniques’ ‘he’s just a human being who’s a teacher’ line, soon sniff the personality cult, and disappear. Along with that, old timers like myself are realising what we were promised never materialised, and that far from being the ‘Lord’, Maharaji is quite confused about who he is and what he’s doing. Mel, if there was a darshan line at the next programme, would you line up, pop your cash in the envelope and kiss his feet? If the answer’s ‘Yes’, it doesn’t look to me like you really see Maharaji as a ‘human being’ and maybe there are a few ‘divinity issues’ still unresolved too. Anth the Part Human Part Aubergine

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Date: Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 02:41:28 (EST) From: bb Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: Maharaji- Part human, Part potato Message:

Like you said Anth, 'this is simply not true'. Mel should voluteer to go throught the aspirant process as a usher or security or video helper. And attend the knowledge selection -process-. That would fix that for Mel.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 00:16:33 (EST) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: All Subject: Happy Thanksgiving Day Message:

I just wanted to wish a happy Thanksgiving to those of you who celebrate this holiday. I am thankful that we have this site where people can discuss M and what happened. I am even thankful that premies show up here, because they are exposed to the truth whether they want to admit it or not, and at some point it may actually get through to them. I am thankful that I consider some of the folks I have met here to be friends. And I am thankful for the experience of living in Panamá and meeting new friends and having new experiences. I hope that you all have a wonderful day.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 10:44:53 (EST) From: Katie Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: To you & yours too, Mickey (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 22:18:06 (EST) From: N X Email: None To: All Subject: Alan Imbarrato is an asshole Message:

Hi all, I just wanted to chime in with a thread I read down below. Alan Imbarrato was always a complete asshole. He loved to boss people around and was one of the first to get into all that 'personal growth' new age crap. I'm not surprised he's leading seminars. I'm glad to hear others say it. He was always such a greasy, little shit.

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 22:21:48 (EST) From: heartmath master:) Email: None To: N X Subject: Re: Alan Imbarrato is an asshole Message:

Do you feel better now??:::))

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 11:32:18 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: heartmath master:) Subject: Give it up, Runamok Message:

You moralistic, passive-aggressive prig! Can't resist the innocent :)) dig can you? If you want to start something, I'll gladly kick your ass, cyberly speaking, of course.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 23:42:16 (EST) From: Runamok Email: None To: gerry Subject: a stochastic theoretician, maybe Message:

but I'm happy to leave the 'heartmath' mastery to you. You're confused, Herr G. It's really not my style to confuse people as to what I am saying and when I am saying it. When I feel like a dig, you can rest assured I'll be there holding a shovel with my name on it.

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 20:35:03 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: All Subject: Can anyone see a conflict here? Message:

On his website Maharaji says the following (notice how he says this dates back to his father):- God gave me the ability to speak from my heart, and that is what I wanted to do speak to those who wanted to hear me, impart Knowledge to those who sought it. 'If you like what is given, practice it; if not, leave it.' This statement, to me, is simple, yet profound and has been echoed since the time of my Father. But some years before, Maharaji said the following:- But I think the premies who are not meditating, you know what they are doing ? It is, getting three tons of vegetables in their house and not eating it. You know what that means ? When it'll start rotting, phew, it's gotta rot like hell! And that's the way this Knowledge is. If it was a 'mantra' or something, and you forget it, doesn't matter. But this Knowledge, it's like, you got the vegetables of the whole universe with you. And if you don't meditate, can you imagine how it’s going to rot? (The Sayings of Guru Maharaj Ji, Vol. 3 page 62, Published by Divine United Organisation, Shri Sant Yogashram, Hans Marg, Mehrauli, New Delhi-110030) So premies, can you reconcile these statements? Is he now saying, sure leave it but he's now keeping secret the rotting vegetable stuff, or was the rotting vegetable stuff some false scare story to keep his followers with him? Is there a single premie who has the guts to face this head on??? John.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 13:16:39 (EST) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: JHB Subject: The truth about this is here Message:

You're a big liar Mr Rawat ! Here is what your father used to say, and wrote in Hans Yog Prakash ! A FOLLOWER OF HIS MIND The people who claim to be servants but have no stability in their service are still bound to the cycles of birth and death, says Kabir. Those who are motivated by desire while doing service, and who do not remove desire from their hearts, these people are not really servants, says Kabir, although they demand four times the wages that a servant would. Whatever a disciple may try to accomplish while overlooking Satguru’s Word, he can only make mistakes, he can only bring himself face to face with death, says Kabir. What can his poor Guru do about it? 'I call nothing in this world my own, everything I have is yours. It will not cause me the slightest pain to make everything over into your name.' 'Whatever is in you, it does not belong to you. All there is, is mine. When the time comes for you to make over to me what is mine, you will find yourself trembling.' A disciple who is shrewd and puffed up in his manner before his Guru is lost. A disciple who criticises his Guru becomes a sorry sight. He who criticises both God and Guru is liable to croak like a frog for thousands of lifetimes together. A disciple who concentrates on making many friends, instead of forging a strong relationship with his Satguru gets stuck in mid way, and never reaches the abode of Truth. Such disciples want to restrain the flights of their mind, and go beyond the ocean of worldly experience. Due to their disobedience to the Guru, however, they get entangled in the world of sufferings. A greedy guru and his envious disciple compete with each other for a place in the circles of hell. A dumb guru and his deaf disciple accomplish nothing, for one does not hear what the other does not speak. He who has no faith in his Guru does not feel happy even in his dreams. He claims he is the servant of my Guru, but still trusts to this world. Where do I put my trust?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 06:19:39 (EST) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: JHB Subject: Re: Can anyone see a conflict here? Message:

Is there a single premie who has the guts to face this head on??? Yes, me.... please, please So premies, can you reconcile these statements? Is he now saying, sure leave it but he's now keeping secret the rotting vegetable stuff, or was the rotting vegetable stuff some false scare story to keep his followers with him? Just seems to me that Maharaji has become more sensitive over the years, doesn't it? He has displayed the admirable human trait of growing and evolving and has refined his message and perspective. John, your reasoning is flimsy and deliberately deceptive, it's like you have taken a photograph of a child and compared it to a photograph of the same person as an adult, and indignantly remark the inconstistency of the features You lack intergrity and insight - is that "head on " and gutsy enough for you? Mel

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 11:15:00 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Standard Maharajia Apologia Message:

Just seems to me that Maharaji has become more sensitive over the years, doesn't it? He has displayed the admirable human trait of growing and evolving and has refined his message and perspective. 5. Everything's changed: Maharaji's evolved too over the years. John, your reasoning is flimsy and deliberately deceptive, it's like you have taken a photograph of a child and compared it to a photograph of the same person as an adult, and indignantly remark the inconstistency of the features 12. Even if M did or said x, he doesn't do it anymore, that was 20 years ago and all people criticizing him are living in the past. M got rid of DLM and all the other terrible stuff that he never wanted anyway and he did it for our benefit;

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 11:07:24 (EST) From: Katie Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Re: Can anyone see a conflict here? Message:

Dear Mel - You wrote (re 'rotten vegetables' vs 'try it'): Just seems to me that Maharaji has become more sensitive over the years, doesn't it? He has displayed the admirable human trait of growing and evolving and has refined his message and perspective. One thing that REALLY bothers me about Maharaji is that he never bothers to retract any of the statements he made in the past (statements like the 'rotten vegetable' quote, that really affected many people's lives, including mine!), or apologize for them. If he has indeed grown and matured, I feel that he should be able to do this. By the way, I don't think John's question was out of line. Politicians and other public figures in the US are often confronted with things they said ten or twenty years before, and asked to explain them. I think this is legitimate. If Maharaji really has changed his mind about 'rotten vegetables' and the other things he said might happen to people who didn't practice knowledge, he ought to say so. People ARE responsible for things that they've said and done in the past. I don't mean that they are expected to hold to these things if they've changed their minds (as Maharaji apparently has), but that they are responsible for retracting, clarifying, or apologizing for erroneous or misleading statements and actions. You put a lot of effort into explaining how Maharaji has grown and evolved, but it would be MUCH more effective if Maharaji himself would talk about these matters publically. Instead he appears to be sweeping his past under the rug, so to speak. Sincerely, Katie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 07:17:28 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk To: Mel Bourne Subject: The scum of the earth Message:

Maharaji has consistently used scare tactics to keep people in his cult. I was brainwashed into believing these scare stories. I was hoodwinked into joining the ashram and then it took me two years to leave it because I was continually told by premies and Maharaji that it would be the end for me if I left it. I finally got the 'courage' to leave the ashram and guess what, nothing untoward happened to me. In 1983 I stopped following Maharaji and practising knowledge and again, none of the threats Maharaji had made about this leaving came true. I actually felt a freedom and my personality didn't suddenly change to that of some demon or something. I wasted years believing the crap that Maharaji had spouted. I lived in fear and guilt for over a decade. Maharaji is not only a bullshit artist, he's a fucking dangerous one because he has consistently put the fear of God into people with his threats. As I wrote earlier; Maharaji is no better than those people who write chain letters which threaten dire consequences if you break the chain. Such people are the scum of the earth and Maharaji has shown by his threats to people, that he is also of that genre.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 07:01:22 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Old Maharaji New Maharaji Message:

Hi Mel, I'm confused about this 'old Maharaji' 'new Maharaji' stuff. Is the 'new Maharaji' still Perfect Master (like Jesus and Buddha)? Does the 'New Maharaji' still have people line up and kiss his feet? Does 'New Maharaji' revert to 'Old Maharaji' when he goes back to India and sticks his Krishna crown on? Has 'New Maharaji' ever said anything that makes you, or anyone else think he sees himself any different to what he did when he said he'd come with more power than Jesus and Buddha? If so, what? Anth the New

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 06:28:03 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Re: Can anyone see a conflict here? Message:

Mel, So his previous statement about rotting vegetables was just due to his immaturity?? Don't you see the mental anguish that statement caused in the minds of many of his followers who believed every word he said? Or are you one of those premies who never took anything M said literally, and laugh at those of us who did?? How the hell can you gloss over such deliberate or callous cruelty? John the just a little angry now.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 05:01:08 (EST) From: I`ll be watching you Email: None To: JHB Subject: May be there is no conflict? Message:

To some people this Forum stinks like 3 tons of rotten vegetables. Bo may be Maharaji was right after all. But he does not say things like this to day. Is it some kind of evolution?

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 21:55:45 (EST) From: Joey Email: None To: JHB Subject: Re: From a cultic perspective...no problemo:) Message:

The message is totally consistent IMO. That is its totally consistent within a cultic framework. As it was then, it is today. You ARE free to leave BUT, if you do...you'll end up like rotten vegetables. Nothn' really new there, and nothing contradictory either at least as far as I can see. Again from a cultic perspective. And thats what m's world is. It was a cult then, and it's consistently been a cult since. And if the cult mind set states that 'you're free to leave, but if you do then you'll end up like rotten vegetables', then its been a destructive cult at that. When you really think about it, who would want to end up like rotten vegetables? Or in a more current jargon drown in that great ocean out there called this EXISTENCE, when you can have a master with strong arms to row you across??(just remembering his words from Long Beach 96). A destructive cult will play with peoples minds and they all do this very much as Lifton suggested in his 8 criteria for thought reforms of which IMO, #8 relates directly to the question you've raised in your post. Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved...they are unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also. (emphasis my own) The truth of the matter then is that for someone caught in ANY destructive cult, the freedom to leave is totally illusory. Until something in their gut begins to assert itself and tells them that m and his world are full of shit and its time to leave. I guess thats the time for them to say Fuck you Maharaji AND your rotten vegetables.!! Ok, time to hear from the premies!!

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 17:29:28 (EST) From: j.garcia Email: josepg@cablecat.com To: All Subject: surprised Message:

I was surfing the net, when i was surprised to find this web. I am from Spain, 43 years old and i was on the Maharashi Mission for about a year when i was 20, I learned a lot there, but not specially from Maharashi, was people there on the satsang sessions, i had good friends and learned things that after made me a good service on my life, i think now at my 40's, that Knowledge is an individual path, and there's not gurus to follow blindfold, but you can learn anything everywhere. Follow your own path and Universe will bless u all.

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 17:42:26 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: j.garcia Subject: Re: surprised Message:

JG, Good advice - it's a pity Maharaji did not give such advice. Instead he told us there was no other path but devotion to him. A bit difficult to pull youself away after a few years of believing that. All the best, John.

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 16:22:48 (EST) From: JW Email: Joger02@aol.com To: All Subject: The Need To Protect Maharaji Message:

In the past couple of years of reading this forum off and on, I have observed that premies feel a deep need to 'protect' Maharaji. It seems strange to me that this person who is supposedly 'all powerful' (or at least used to be), and is some kind of a higher form of being (if not the 'Lord of the Universe' and 'God' also as he also used to be), and someone the premies revere, love, and are actually quite afraid of, is also someone whom they consider too fragile, pure and trusting, such that he requires protection from 'the world' by his followers. For example, premies who post here find it nearly impossible to say even a slightly negative thing about Maharaji. This is a true test of being in a cult, actually, because in my experience, even after I rejected the cult organization, it took me awhile to actually begin to look at Maharaji objectively, including his many, many flaws. It was only then that I really got free. Also, I detect a kind of 'poor little Maharaji' mentality among the premies. I guess it goes back to the idea that anything in the world is a burden for him and it's just such a shame that he has to put up with what the rest of us have to. This terrible burden can be lightened only slightly by placial homes and private jets, but those aids, despite their astronomical cost, do little to mitigate what Maharaji has to put up with. Anyhow, any comments on these seemingly contradictory views, which premies seem to hold both at the same time?

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 17:57:13 (EST) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: JW Subject: What's obvious for me now Message:

is the supposed 'Lord of the Universe' is a mentally sick person. Then it all makes sense. He is truly a very fragile personality, he's truly a heavy drinker, and YES he has to be protected. And yes, in spite of this he may be an excellent speaker, and even a funny person. But he also is an abusive manager or whatever. This all makes sense. He's so sick that he can't behave like a regular person, and that can't be seen by average premies. That's why most of the people who've spent enough time with him left. Mr Prempal Rawat is a very sick person. Don't get close to him, unless you're a professional. Like in the scientific field, the simplest theory that answers to all the questions is usually the good one ! No need to look for strange esoteric explanations.

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 17:18:28 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: JW Subject: They need to protect themselves Message:

I think premies need to protect their own worldview. I know I did - it was an automated response. I remember just last year a friend I hadn't seen for many years told me M was a fraud. I automatically replied 'No he's not!'. It's impossible to hold onto loving Maharaji without building that kind of defense mechanism. John.

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 17:13:09 (EST) From: Joey Email: None To: JW Subject: Re: The Need To Protect Maharaji Message:

JW, I believe m has fostered especially in recent years what David Lane has termed the flawed master theory, or in other words, while on the physical plane m may be flawed and in need of protection as you put it, on the higher plane that exists in the connection between student,master and knowledge...m is still perfect and so of course is 'THE Knowledge'. Its that fundamental dichotomy or seperation between the physical or lower plane, and the spiritual or higher plane, that exists at the very heart of m's belief system that provides the basis for this flawed master theory to take hold, a theory which IMO is flawed... in and of itself since it's based on such a flawed belief system. Lets also not forget while considering this issue, all the times premies have been told by the likes of RJ,Charanand and Sampuranand, that its their DUTY to serve and protect their master. In psychological terms we can refer to 'modelling', and in this case I believe we can say the model was set a long time ago. IMO, m and his cult have reached a critical point in terms of the cults survival, and premies are just responding the best way they know how given their programming.

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 18:30:16 (EST) From: JW Email: None To: Joey Subject: Re: The Need To Protect Maharaji Message:

Yeah, I know about the dichotomy between the two 'planes' but even on the 'physical plane' most premies are unable to look at him objectively or criticize him. And I think Maharaji continues to imply the idea that he is 'perfect' on all levels, and any imperfection is in the eye of the beholder. It's your own mind, lack of understanding, etc. I think he might 'say' that he isn't perfect on the physical plane, but not too forcefully, and at the same time, he lets himself be worshiped and have his feet kissed, which flies in the face of that. I think Maharaji is far too much of a magalomaniac and has too huge an ego to pull off the 'split.'

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 20:14:43 (EST) From: Joey Email: None To: JW Subject: Re: The Need To Protect Maharaji Message:

I remember one occasion in the mid nineties when m was talking about perfection and imperfection. His 'reasoning' went something like this. For perfection to be perfect it must encompass everything, for if it doesn't encompass everything, it isn't complete and cannot therefore be perfect. For perfection to be perfect then, it had to encompass everything and since imperfection is part of everything, it therefore has to be part of that 'perfection', because if not, then the perfection won't be perfect. Yes thats what he said, and believe it or not, when I heard this it made perfect sense to me. And in statements like that I believe that m was laying the foundation for premies to more easily swallow all the crap they they see going on in the world of m and k. I agree with you that even on the 'physical plane' most premies are unable to look at him objectively or criticize him, but I still believe that its because they have that 'spiritual plane' on which m and k are eternally perfect no matter what, or until their premie dreams are shattered and they wake up. As long as they can see m as still being in some way perfect, no die hard premie will ever admit to m being imperfect in any way, and their first tendency will be to protect him as they've been programmed. Again its only possible to think that way IMO, if that dichotomy has been set in ones framework to begin with. And like I said, the model for most premies was set long ago.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 12:32:34 (EST) From: Cynthia G. Email: cynthia@madriver.com To: Joey Subject: Another Perspective Message:

Hi Joey, Because of my orientation (being from an abusive home), I've learned a lot about how children react to abusive parents. So I offer this: Those of us who received k during the time of m being God, became completely dependent upon m for everything, especially in the ashram. Brainwashed cult members are very much like abused children. Abused children consistently protect their abusers because as children, they are helpless and also because they love their abusers (I'm thinking about parents). This analogy fits pretty well into the profile of a premie who protects m. They may unconsciously or subconsiously know that m is a very sick person or at least not what they have believed for years, but cannot break through their fears and denial to criticize m or even question any of his behavior. 'You are my mother and you are my father' were ingrained into us. The bond between parent and child is so great many abused children do not want to be separated from abusive parents even if they are in imminent (sp?) danger. How many times has m said 'come as a child?' He still says it. LOLOL!! 'Be as a child.' That dominance certainly is a cult tactic to remove personal power from adults and especially young adults. I'm not implying that all premies are from abusive homes, I offer this simply as an analogy, based on my extensive reading and my own therapy. It is very revealing that premies cannot bring themselves to criticize or question him. That in itself is a sign of a cult. I shouldn't generalize, but since I've been posting here I've been amazed by the way they protect m. Bye, Love Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 18:24:36 (EST) From: Joey Email: None To: Cynthia G. Subject: Cynthia, your insight is so much appreciated....great post!! (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 16:51:27 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Cynthia G. Subject: It's a ***Best*** Message:

***Best***

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 06:11:39 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: All Subject: Video Events to Finish!!!! Message:

This from the ELK site - does the replacement of video events with weekly satellite broadcasts mean that Maharaji has to speak live to Europe once a week?:- European broadcast project update It hardly seemed a coincidence that a detailed unveiling of Maharaji's plan for satellite broadcasting should take place at Conway Hall in Red Lion Square, central London, last night. It was in this rather solemn and austere hall, dating back to the 1920s, that the then 13-year-old Maharaji first addressed a public audience in the West over 28 years ago, on 19 June 1971, two days after his arrival in the UK. Back then, he addressed an audience of several hundred with a scientific theme: 'Although Sir Isaac Newton discovered the law of gravitation he did not invent that law. He discovered it only - and discovery meant that a thing existing from the first is brought into the awareness of people. In the same way, Knowledge is everywhere, you only have to discover it.' In a way that hardly seemed possible back then, the message of Knowledge will now be available anywhere in the world. To receive it you only have to have a satellite dish to pick up Maharaji's broadcasts that are scheduled to start next month once a week. Technology has moved on apace and so has the delivery of Maharaji's message. EV organiser Glen Whittaker took the opportunity of the showing of the final Hans Jayanti 99 satellite broadcasts to explain what was happening with the European Broadcast Project. The delay in finalising a satellite provider, he explained, was due to the need to find a pan-European solution. Not to mention the complexities of dealing with the legal and tax scenarios in over 20 countries, it was essential to find a company that could cover all the required countries. The Norwegian satellite used for the Pasadena and Barcelona broadcasts had too small a 'footprint' which means that it did not cover a large enough geographic area to be viable for EV's European needs. The new provider Eutelsat will use its Hot Bird II Widebeam satellite to beam the programming from Norway to Greece and from Holland to Hungary - 24 countries in total at last count. He explained that satellite broadcasts would in time naturally take over from the current video events, which have been running for a decade now. The issue of cost was raised. EV in the UK have struck a deal with a supplier called Spectrum for the necessary equipment at a price of £299.99 including VAT - which Glen claimed is a 40 per cent discount on the recommended retail price. (This price does not include the Conditional Access Card which enables you to decode the signal in your home - this can be purchased from Visions International Europe.) Those who brought equipment to receive the transmission from the Norwegian satellite can have their equipment recalibrated to receive the new signal. The mass-market satellite suppliers, like Sky in the UK, Glen explained, just charge too much money for air-time - up to 25 times more expensive that Eutelsat. With such prohibitive running costs, it was not possible to use such companies, although many people already have the equipment installed. The monthly cost for the broadcasts is not yet fixed, but will reflect the lower broadcast costs charged by Eutelsat. This and other information will be available at information tables at video events in the near future. Community screenings of the satellite will still occur for those who do not have their own receivers, and Glen said that this will mean a complete review of UK venues, as many of those currently used are not satellite friendly - due to location or other local reasons. He also said that this new development would have a definite effect on the way in which people are informed about Knowledge. On the way out, someone was heard to say: 'It's the new M - TV.' copyright Enjoying Being Braindead Ltd.

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Date: Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 02:49:16 (EST) From: bb Email: None To: JHB Subject: Time to expand ex-premie org to the sky Message:

A weekly broadcast by m folowed by a broadcast by the ex's. How money are we talking about?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 05:05:49 (EST) From: Enough Email: None To: JHB Subject: M's Bunker Mentality/Exit Strategy Message:

Hi- This news and the various opinions mentioned in this thread have me wondering. Is the Maharaji, the LOTU, the Perfect Master in the process of slowly dissolving his cult? This seems to be a perfect way to do it. -further diminish contact within the cult while keeping the money coming in -limit his need to travel, thereby, keeping overhead expenses very low -cancel programs when the number of paid viewers does not provide a nice profit -allow M to hide from his 'perceived enemies' -allow the cult to fade away over time not because of M but because his followers lost THAT FAITH

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 14:36:09 (EST) From: JW Email: None To: JHB Subject: Follow The Money Message:

With Maharaji, this is always what one must do. Obviously, there is more money to be gained, with fewer expenses, by satellite broadcasts than from videos, and since no one was showing up at video events anyway, and apparently not buying the videos (such that Visions recently had to hold a big video clearance sale to try to get rid of that garbage), this is a way to get a constant income stream now that the video income stream has dried up. At least for awhile, until premies get bored stiff of that too. Isn't it interesting that you have to buy the access code from Visions? We are talking profit margin here, boys. And Visions entered into the deal with the satellite company. I am absolutely certain there is a kick-back for every satellite sold and every feed done, purusant to the 'exclusive' agreement between Visions and the satellite company. He must be getting desperate for money. So, now the premies have to buy satellite equipment, over which all M has to do is show up once in a while and deliver some of his simplistic platitudes. Hell, he can just record a 'video' and slip it in the cassette player and go off and have sex with his mistress. What a deal. He doesn't even have to leave that theme park that is his house in Malibu anymore. Now, in the rare cases that a premie even tells a non-premie that he or she is one, people can be dragged to 'satellite' events instead of 'video' events. My, this is truly an astounding change! I agree with JM. Maharaji is settling into a conservation mode. Just try to hold on to the old timers if you can and make as much money from them as you can. End of story. The cult isn't over, it has just slogged into a kind of weird, semi-religion.

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 08:23:15 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: JHB Subject: The boredom threshold Message:

A cult with only one speaker and you'll have to pay to see and hear him. It's too boring. How many people are going to stay with it? Only those who are obsessed with Maharaji. Only the old timers. New people will find it too wierd.

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 09:52:33 (EST) From: Cynthia G. Email: cynthia@madriver.com To: ALL Subject: I Saw This Coming....... Message:

Hi Everybody, First to JW: This is what I meant when I said things are changing again. (Sorry I didn't email you back). I just got such a bad feeling the last time I saw a satellite feed. M was so mean and angry (Manchester event), and I left feeling like, 'I'm just getting used to going to video events, now I have to BUY a satellite dish? I get cable, I don't need a fucking satellite dish! Actually, I hated the video events. No one ever showed up, it was really, really wierd. Call him CRT-maharaji. There's great profit to be made on these feeds, too. He'll probably have Raja doing infomercials before his speaches so he can hawk all those silk shawls that no one wants to pay $275.00 US for. This is also a way of keeping the premie count vague. Also a way to avoid the embarrassing low attendance by premies at local video events. Does this mean he doesn't need the plane anymore? Tomorrow is Thanksgiving. I am soooo grateful to be out of the cult!!!!! Love, Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 10:02:26 (EST) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Cynthia G. Subject: End of the Raw-rat's cult! Message:

Does this mean he doesn't need the plane anymore? Maybe he simply can't afford it anymore. He might be aware of his cult dying, and simply wants to keep as many old timers for as long as possible. He's into getting rid of everything he doesn't need, like video operation, instructors, organizations etc. He's going to show up in India and Amaroo from time to time, where he'll feel safe enough. End of Rawat's cult.

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 14:58:19 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: What about the demonstration we've been planning? Message:

Wait a minute! He can't do this. We've spent too much time and effort secretly planning to demonstrate at the next event.

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 20:23:11 (EST) From: Agent Dave Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Re: What about the demonstration we've been planning? Message:

Don't worry, agent eDrek. I've got the equipment ready and all people who tune into the Maharaji channel will be suddenly surprised to see Tracy Adams and Joey Silvera going at it like there's no tomorrow.

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 21:16:59 (EST) From: Agent Dave again Email: None To: Agent eDrek Subject: Something leaked Message:

Joking aside, Roger; I think that the demonstration plans must have been leaked out and that's why there's no programs, all of a sudden. Does this mean that there was a premie spy in our midst?

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 22:01:07 (EST) From: Roger 006.5 eDrek Email: None To: Agent Dave again Subject: Re: Something leaked Message:

Well, I must admit that I was in an email discussion with Bim and I was tired of not getting any respect so I might have leaked some of our plans to him. Who would have thought that he had an inside line? No, I don't think that hijacking the feed and replacing it with those people that you mention would be a good idea. Why? Because it would only increase interest and viewership. No, just let Maharaji ramble on like Max Headroom.

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 21:07:06 (EST) From: My Guess Email: None To: Agent Dave Subject: Re: What about the demonstration we've been planning? Message:

My guess is that they'll be showing old events already available on video. I pity these premies who'll be paying top dollar to watch reruns.

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 21:19:53 (EST) From: Agent Dave Email: None To: My Guess Subject: Out with a whimper Message:

It's almost a sad end to what was once a fairly large cult. All those young people back in the seventies, singing 'Spread this Knowledge' etc. If it gets any smaller it won't even be a cult. It'll just be a club.

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 22:38:17 (EST) From: Just Surfn Email: None To: All Subject: A bit like the ashram Message:

HOW COULD ANYONE JOIN A CULT?!?! By Maureen Griffo (a former cult member)(HOW COULD ANYONE JOIN A CULT?!?! By Maureen Griffo (a former cult member) With the Heaven's Gate tragedy still so fresh in all of our minds certain questions seem to come up: What kind of person joins a cult? Why do they stay and put up with the abuse? How could anyone be SO devoted that they would kill themselves? Can't they see that what they are doing is crazy? Are THEY crazy? I feel that I am in a unique position to address these questions as I spent 10 years with a communal cult. Yet, now being out for 11 years, I also can look at the horrors that happened at Rancho Sante Fe and ask, along with the rest of a stunned nation, 'Why did they die like this?' For eight and a half of the ten years I was with my former group, each payday I would sign my check over to the group. I would receive a meager allowance in return and would have to beg for the basics of life such as clothing and medical care. Often I lived in substandard housing with rats, filth and overcrowded conditions in neighborhoods with extremely high crime rates. After working a full day at work, I often would have to spend several hours on the street proselytizing. After returning, I would have to sit in meetings that lasted to the wee hours of the morning. These meetings were intense. Public humiliation was common place, and sometimes we would sit in silence for hours on end believing ourselves to be too reprobate to even speak. After getting an insufficient night's sleep, I would be expected to repeat the same routine of work and group activities all over again. In other words, there was no doubt that I was in a cult. Yet, if you had passed me in the street during the 10 years that I spent in the group, I can tell you that I wouldn't have been all that different from others in the crowd. My skin had not turned green, and I did not grow antennas. I had eyes, ears and a nose just like anyone else. I looked both ways before crossing a street. If somehow we got in an idle conversation that didn't involve my trying to recruit you, you may be shocked to know that I had likes and dislikes just like any other person. I still liked pizza (even if I didn't have much access to it) and still hated pork sausage. Blue was still my favorite color, and I still loved sunsets. People who are in cults are just that PEOPLE-- although sadly cults suppress much of what makes an individual unique. Heaven's Gate, I believe, has forced all of us to come to grips with the realization that they were people not too unlike us, and that is indeed something tough to face. Whether one has been in a cult or not, the realization deep in our hearts that perhaps we could have shared a similar fate makes us want to turn away and believe that they had to be made of different stuff than we are. I am here to tell you that they are not. Why did the people in Heaven's Gate seem to go willingly to their deaths? Why did I stay in a clearly abusive situation for 10 years? The activities I felt trapped to do while within the group give some generous clues to how this can happen. And, when we can come to understand how one person can gain control over another, we can peer into the world of an average cult member. Indeed, one human being controlling another is nothing new to civilization. We need only look at the Biblical story of Cain and Abel to see the lengths that a person will go to in order to be 'on top'--even if that means murder. It is no secret that sleep deprivation hinders clear thinking and decision making abilities. Through instituting a poor diet and strenuous routines, a group can break a person down further, making them even more vulnerable to the group's ideologies. By virtue of my physical existence, mentally and emotionally I was in a compromising position within the group. While the specific techniques may differ, almost every group has a way of inducing hypnosis. In my former group this was accomplished through the format of our meetings which in reality were the focal point of what had become an intense system of peer scrutiny. Sitting in silence for hours affected me. I remember leaving many a meeting in which we had not spoken for hours with a heaviness in my heart and feeling like my head had been put between two cymbals. Having to stand in front of my peers to be critiqued by them would seize me with panic. We would have to present ourselves one by one in front of a group of several hundred of our peers, stating what we did and where we were at in our hearts. The group would vote on us and the final vote became our guideline...it did not matter how we felt about things in our hearts. Often I was found to be deficient and would have to endure taunts by my peers between meetings. All of that was very intentional, coming from the leader himself and carried out through the ranks. There was no going home to escape all of this. I was home, and there was not a minute of privacy. I often could not think clearly and if I could get through a day feeling I held onto my sanity that was a major accomplishment. My mind was too under siege to even think of packing my bags and leaving. This was purposeful, as cults know that no one would make a rational decision to live like this and thus create an environment in which a person has no time or freedom to think. I have heard life in a cult compared to living in a fire constantly. Most of us can invoke images of people we've seen on the news who have lived through a fire. When aHeaven's Gate tragedy still so fresh in all of our minds certain questions seem to come up: What kind of person joins a cult? Why do they stay and put up with the abuse? How could anyone be SO devoted that they would kill themselves? Can't they see that what they are doing is crazy? Are THEY crazy? I feel that I am in a unique position to address these questions as I spent 10 years with a communal cult. Yet, now being out for 11 years, I also can look at the horrors that happened at Rancho Sante Fe and ask, along with the rest of a stunned nation, 'Why did they die like this?' For eight and a half of the ten years I was with my former group, each payday I would sign my check over to the group. I would receive a meager allowance in return and would have to beg for the basics of life such as clothing and medical care. Often I lived in substandard housing with rats, filth and overcrowded conditions in neighborhoods with extremely high crime rates. After working a full day at work, I often would have to spend several hours on the street proselytizing. After returning, I would have to sit in meetings that lasted to the wee hours of the morning. These meetings were intense. Public humiliation was common place, and sometimes we would sit in silence for hours on end believing ourselves to be too reprobate to even speak. After getting an insufficient night's sleep, I would be expected to repeat the same routine of work and group activities all over again. In other words, there was no doubt that I was in a cult. Yet, if you had passed me in the street during the 10 years that I spent in the group, I can tell you that I wouldn't have been all that different from others in the crowd. My skin had not turned green, and I did not grow antennas. I had eyes, ears and a nose just like anyone else. I looked both ways before crossing a street. If somehow we got in an idle conversation that didn't involve my trying to recruit you, you may be shocked to know that I had likes and dislikes just like any other person. I still liked pizza (even if I didn't have much access to it) and still hated pork sausage. Blue was still my favorite color, and I still loved sunsets. People who are in cults are just that PEOPLE-- although sadly cults suppress much of what makes an individual unique. Heaven's Gate, I believe, has forced all of us to come to grips with the realization that they were people not too unlike us, and that is indeed something tough to face. Whether one has been in a cult or not, the realization deep in our hearts that perhaps we could have shared a similar fate makes us want to turn away and believe that they had to be made of different stuff than we are. I am here to tell you that they are not. Why did the people in Heaven's Gate seem to go willingly to their deaths? Why did I stay in a clearly abusive situation for 10 years? The activities I felt trapped to do while within the group give some generous clues to how this can happen. And, when we can come to understand how one person can gain control over another, we can peer into the world of an average cult member. Indeed, one human being controlling another is nothing new to civilization. We need only look at the Biblical story of Cain and Abel to see the lengths that a person will go to in order to be 'on top'--even if that means murder. It is no secret that sleep deprivation hinders clear thinking and decision making abilities. Through instituting a poor diet and strenuous routines, a group can break a person down further, making them even more vulnerable to the group's ideologies. By virtue of my physical existence, mentally and emotionally I was in a compromising position within the group. While the specific techniques may differ, almost every group has a way of inducing hypnosis. In my former group this was accomplished through the format of our meetings which in reality were the focal point of what had become an intense system of peer scrutiny. Sitting in silence for hours affected me. I remember leaving many a meeting in which we had not spoken for hours with a heaviness in my heart and feeling like my head had been put between two cymbals. Having to stand in front of my peers to be critiqued by them would seize me with panic. We would have to present ourselves one by one in front of a group of several hundred of our peers, stating what we did and where we were at in our hearts. The group would vote on us and the final vote became our guideline...it did not matter how we felt about things in our hearts. Often I was found to be deficient and would have to endure taunts by my peers between meetings. All of that was very intentional, coming from the leader himself and carried out through the ranks. There was no going home to escape all of this. I was home, and there was not a minute of privacy. I often could not think clearly and if I could get through a day feeling I held onto my sanity that was a major accomplishment no time or freedom to think. I have heard life in a cult compared to living in a fire constantly....(from the Leo J.Ryan site, the real one...not the one set up by the Scientologists :)

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 18:14:25 (EST) From: RT Email: omm To: All Subject: y2k scary update: 4 get M Message:

slowing the economies of Europe. The 'Asian Flu' proceeded on to South America where Brazil now teeters on the brink of disaster. If Brazil goes, all of South America goes. The world financial boom of the last 18 years is trying to collapse while the international bankers who created this Ponzi scheme are trying desperately to hold it together . . . at least until they can blame it on Y2K. The United States is the 'Buyer of Last Resort.' When you analyse it, the only thriving economy in the world is the United States. I am convinced monetary authorities are using the US to prop up the whole world. Think about it. The dollar is strong -- not from it's own strength -- but because currencies of other nations are weaker. Flight capital from failing economies throughout the world seeking refuge in the US, continues to fuel our financial markets. The rich get richer. In our prosperity, the United States has gone on a buying binge, importing goods from all over the globe at distressed prices. Our trade deficit now exceeds a record $20 billion per month, and grows larger every month. It's U.S. imports that keep the world economy afloat, so the United States' economy must be kept strong, at least until the world recovers. (This will not happen until after Rome takes charge following the close of the Gentile dispensation). Unfortunately, distressed prices from abroad have deluded most Americans into thinking there is no inflation. Our misunderstanding of inflation is at the root of our looming financial crisis. The unconstitutional Federal Reserve System and fractional reserve banking magically creates credit, also known as debt, out of thin air. The problem is that a system built on a foundation of debt can exist only so long as the people maintain confidence. If confidence waivers the debt bubble collapses causing the opposite condition -- deflation. Because of the massive debt structure in the world, deflation must be avoided at all costs. In a monetary system based on debt, everyone's assets are really someone else's IOUs. In a depression no one can pay off his IOUs. But, deflation is exactly what's happening as world markets decline! To offset deflation overseas US markets are being inflated massively to keep the world solvent. The FED is continually avoiding near disaster. And bankers cannot run the printing presses nonstop without rekindling the perception of inflation. Perception creates it's own reality. Once the fear of inflation is ignited the whole credit bubble comes under attack and confidence is undermined. Inflation fear drives interest rates up, bond prices down. Bonds are the foundation for America's house of cards. Their entire monetary and financial system is built on a foundation of debt. The world debt structure has grown well in excess of $100 trillion, and that doesn't include derivatives. All debt instruments have a maturity date in which they must either be repaid or renewed. Literally trillions of dollars of debt instruments mature each year and must be rolled over. This becomes more and more difficult as interest rates rise and bond values decline. If not stopped immediately the process will veer out of control, shutting down economic growth, collapsing the stock market bubble, and triggering a panic stampede out of all paper assets. Make no mistake; the unravelling process has already begun in earnest. Inflationary fears have driven long-term rates above 6 percent and the bond price index has dropped to the lowest level since October 1997. Monetary authorities now face the challenge of restoring confidence before it wrecks the whole system. Inflationary fears must be calmed immediately! Anything that undermines confidence must be attacked immediately and with a vengeance. This explains the propaganda blitz to calm Y2k fears and depress gold prices. Both represent an immediate threat to confidence and therefore had to be dealt with severely. As Jim Lord explains, U.S. banks have only $3 for every $250 on deposit. Cash withdrawals in preparation for a possible Y2K meltdown pose an immediate threat to bank solvency. So in typical bureaucratic fashion, the truth has to be compromised to protect people from themselves. Lies and cover-ups spew forth as the establishment media acts to convince people that Y2K is no longer a threat. If anything, the problem is greater than most people think simply because, regardless of the technical magnitude of the problem, Y2K is a very sharp pin that will prick the veil of confidence that holds a fragile banking system together.

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 17:14:01 (EST) From: JW Email: None To: RT Subject: Is The US Navy Thinks Its Going To Happen...What Else Is There To Say? Message:

I mean, hell, those military people aren't idiots, you know. If they think people in New York will have to start using chamber pots and pissing in the streets, it MUST be true. Remember, these are the same people who told us the Vietnam War was winnable, who nearly failed in conquering that mightly power Granada, regularly fliy their multi-million-dollar planes into each other, developed the 'stealth' fighter that is unusable when it rains, and who gave us Oliver North and Timothy McVeigh. With credentials like that, I'd believe anything they say.

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 02:36:25 (EST) From: Roger Bombshelter Salesman eDrek Email: None To: RT Subject: HOGWASH! Message:

RT, Yeah, it's probably a good idea to have some food and water on hand for any emergency. Either that or weapons and bullets that you can use to convince others to sell you their food and water. Ok, the Soviet Union or whatever is doing a 'fix on failure' routine. Well, other than their nuclear power plants which probably can be easily scrammed there is there economy - huh? What economy? Third World countries... Well, maybe in South America where they are still using a lot of old technology. Personally, I do not believe that there are that many embedded controllers that really give a shit about the date. Typically an embedded controller is monitoring something and based on whatever value(s) it receives it will do something. I think that if Y2K was going to be a really big deal we'd already be seeing problems with software (like the banking system) that deals with dates in the future that at this point in time would be in Y2K. And we are not. I was talking to a clerk in a gun shop and he advised a shotgun for Y2K. Why? Ok, you've got all these people who own pets like dogs. If food becomes scarce will the owner feed the dog, eat the dog, or let the dog loose to fend for itself? Most likely the latter and that will mean packs of hungry dogs roaming the streets. And you definitely will want a shot gun for that kind of fast action. Me? I'm going to buy about 100 kilos of dried dog food, vitamins, toilet paper and stock up on water.

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 14:07:15 (EST) From: rt Email: omm To: Roger Bombshelter Salesman eDrek Subject: Re: Carma wash Message:

Roger Roger 10-4 over and outa here. Dog food is a GREAT idea and I thank you for that...keep the muts in the street should they roam. While you get toilet paper get ziplock baggies-large-in case there is no flushing!! Also, I hear some guy has used sawdust for 40 years and so saved a lot of water. It's best to prepare and if nothing happens, donate or eat the extras; wait 3 -6 months. Do NOT send to ElanVital. :) RT

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 04:34:47 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Roger Bombshelter Salesman eDrek Subject: Re: HOGWASH! Message:

A far more life threatening problem will be if the cigarettes run out. Then there will be a lot of freaked out, angry people walking around 'on the edge' and the wrong look, the wrong word to them may facilitate them going over the edge.

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 14:11:29 (EST) From: RT Email: omm To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: HOGWASH! Message:

Sir Dave Yes it would be good to have Sir Walter Raleigh to barter for you. What a month January will be. Just think of all the global awareness this y2k is issuing! RT

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Date: Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 04:02:15 (EST) From: bb Email: None To: RT Subject: Re: HOGWASH! Message:

Hi RT, I think Wheeler is accentuating the negative and a better source of info is the senate 100 day report. That is unnerving enough. Also, the general does not do a good job talking about global monetary issues. I think the moetary issues are an interesting area to study. I would suggest you go to www.prudentbear.com www.contraryinvestor.com and read the market reports that come out twice weekly. and visit the archives. THAT is better writing, as I think you will agree.

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 21:34:42 (EST) From: dv Email: None To: RT Subject: Me? I'm going to do Message:

Absolutely nothing!

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 17:16:42 (EST) From: JW Email: None To: dv Subject: Get Some Cash Out Of the ATM and Fill Your Bathtub With Water......... Message:

Maybe also get a full tank of gas in your car and stock up on Jack Daniels.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 12:56:59 (EST) From: Katie Email: None To: JW Subject: Don't forget coffee, cat food, and cigarettes, either Message:

Or I guess dog food in your case, JW. Happy Thanksgiving to you and Gerry, not to mention Nigel the Dalmatian, and the lovely Ms. Robyn! Katie

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 14:13:34 (EST) From: RT Email: omm To: dv Subject: Re: What Me Worry? Message:

dv sounds like you Zen-sored yourself! RT prepare and relax, or ignore and regret.

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 20:02:53 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: RT Subject: Re: y2k scary update: 4 get M Message:

I think a global recession is on the cards, for sure but we've been through several of those in our lifetime already. Even a global depression isn't as frightening as people make it out to be. The thirties' depression wasn't bad for everyone and some people thrived during that period. The biggest danger we have in Europe is another Chernobyl meltdown in a Russian nuclear power station. That is a distinct possibility. But if the wind blows in the right direction we might be lucky this time and not have to face purple grass and three headed sheep. Don't forget, you still have time to cast your vote in the Millennium Polling Booth. Most people think nothing too serious is going to happen with the Y2K bug and that's how people feel all over the world. But we'll know soon, won't we.

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 14:53:14 (EST) From: RT Email: omm To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: y2k scary update: 4 get M Message:

SD JAVA script won't run here at work so I saw no Poll, nor Russian or cosack. Agreed that Nuke Power is a big threat. Potassium Iodine tablets are recommended. We have to be vigilant. The Net is us. RT feed your neighbors well.

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Date: Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 04:05:12 (EST) From: bb Email: None To: RT Subject: Re: y2k scary update: 4 get M Message:

You mean the improved potassium IODATE.

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 18:39:08 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: RT Subject: A detailed critique Message:

Me, I think this is a load of bollocks, me. That's what I think. John the thinker.

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 14:56:33 (EST) From: RT Email: omm To: JHB Subject: Re: A detailed sentence Message:

JHB Take a load off your bollocks! (a shellfish??) Visit www.y2knewswire.com ...no ads - no product placement! RT the answer my friend is sowing in the wind.

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 15:19:30 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: RT Subject: Re: A detailed sentence Message:

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 17:25:45 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: All Subject: No hate and little anger Message:

For all premies who keep repeating their mantra that the people here are filled with hate and anger can I just repeat that for me, and the exes I've met (and I'm sure others) there is no hate, and just occasionally a lttle anger. I can't prove this to except to ask you to respect my honesty. Leaving Maharaji was a little traumatic, but after the initial turmoil, there is a great feeling of liberation and exhiliaration. The occasional feeling of anger comes from remembering the mistreatment of premies by Maharaji, and seeing the continued mistreatment. Believe me, it's great to be out of the cult! John.

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 08:51:55 (EST) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: JHB Subject: They need us to be full of hate Message:

I agree with every word, John. But I doubt visiting premies will ever see it like that. It seems some of them actually need to believe this a hate site. Only by questioning our integrity and motivations can they avoid confronting the obvious: that exes are just ordinary people who happened to join a cult, same as them, but who now relate facts and experiences concerning their Master they would prefer not to think about.

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 18:08:12 (EST) From: Helen Email: None To: JHB Subject: Re: No hate and little anger Message:

I can only speak for myself but I agree with you. I am not consumed with anger regarding M. I was when I first found this site but moved through it pretty quickly. I do NOT want M defining my life in any way and as far as I am concerned the sooner I get him & any of the bad stuff about being a premie out of my system, the better. Life is too short to waste being consumed by anger.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 00:12:54 (EST) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Helen Subject: Hi Helen Message:

Hi Helen, how have you been? It's good to see you posting again. I hope that you and yours have a happy Thanksgiving.

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 17:23:17 (EST) From: Gabriel Golden Email: ggolden@planetarymotion.net To: All Subject: The source of Prempal's power Message:

Hello All, I recently discovered this site. I was never a premie, but was very briefly an aspirant. My ex-wife was and is a premie. I have a lot to say, and beg your indulgence. When I was an aspirant, I liked much of what I heard from Prempal. Despite this, a (healthy) part of me persistently felt uncomfortable with the idea of 'jumping off the cliff' and taking Knowledge. Now, in retrospect and many years later, I feel I have an understanding of this, and would like to share it with you good people. For a while now, I have been involved in a 12-step recovery program in America called ACA (Adult Children of Alcoholices). The details of my childhood are best left to a different forum, but suffice it to say that I was not particularly wanted by either of my parents, and was subjected to rather extreme neglect. What I read in this forum and in these pages resonates very strongly with what I've been learning in my recovery program. One of the first things I've learned about is boundaries, i.e. where you end and other people begin. Is Prempal a great leader, a great orator, a great healer? He is none of these things. The one thing of value that he flogs is the meditation techniques, which pre-date him by centuries and which are also freely available. He has merely shrink-wrapped and re-marketed them as knowledge. BUT, in one area, he is particularly talented: he is a master at 'sourcing' people. He can recognize people with poor boundary skills, people who do not recognize (and in fact find it exciting) when their personal and emotional space is being violated. Prempal does not have super powers. He simply knows who is needy and malleable, and who will be most receptive to being manipulated emotionally. Which brings me to the source of Prempal's power: YOU. The premies and ex-premies. When Prempal claimed to be God in the early 70's, it was true then too. When one has the hearts and minds of thousands, one appears powerful and super-human indeed. I am guessing that many of you still smart from the Prempal Experience, and probably have outstanding and unresolved childhood issues that made you so gullible in the first place. That is NOT an indictment (I came close to premiehood myself), it is said in the spirit of love and empathy. I would encourage you to look into 12-step recovery programs, which are neither a religion or a cult (though certainly a few unfortunate people treat them that way). Think of them as free group therapy. I have come a long way since my marriage and my trip through Prempal Land. When I think of those days, I shudder, then feel very, very grateful. It is far more difficult, yet much more gratifying, to let go of the mysteries of the universe, and instead focus on solving the mystery of your self. Living in truth and reality, no matter how uncomfortable or painful at times, simply can't be beat. You have all my faith, Gabriel Golden

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 09:55:42 (EST) From: Katie Email: None To: Gabriel Golden Subject: Re: The source of Prempal's power Message:

Dear Gabriel - Thanks for your great post - it's always illuminating to hear from ex-aspirants. I agreed with a lot of what you had to say, but just wanted to make a few comments. First, as JW said, I don't think that Prempal is necessarily 'a master at 'sourcing' people...' who are needy, have boundary problems and so forth. However, I do think he's really good at APPEALING to these kind of people, or at least he used to be when I was a premie (I have heard many premies say since then that knowledge is not a substitute for therapy, when it used to be said that knowledge would solve all your problems. I don't know if Maharaji believes this or not.) I agree with you that people with boundary problems are/were attracted to Maharaji in droves - I certainly way. You wrote: I am guessing that many of you still smart from the Prempal Experience, and probably have outstanding and unresolved childhood issues that made you so gullible in the first place. That is NOT an indictment (I came close to premiehood myself), it is said in the spirit of love and empathy. I would encourage you to look into 12-step recovery programs, which are neither a religion or a cult (though certainly a few unfortunate people treat them that way). Think of them as free group therapy. You're certainly right about many people here having unresolved childhood issues which led us to Maharaji (I did). However, I've also found that many people here came from religious backgrounds, which made them more suggestible to the idea of a Perfect Master, a messiah, or someone who was going to save the world. Also, as JW said, some ex-premies were just dissatisfied with the world - Maharaji offered a quick fix for this, which was very appealing (especially to young people who still believed in quick fixes and absolutes!) I also agree with you that 12-Step programs can be very helpful. I know several people on this forum that go to these groups, plus many others - including some of my own family members. My sister (also an ex-premie) has gotten a tremendous amount of help from going to ACA meetings. I myself have a problem with these groups in that sometimes they remind me too much of satsang meetings and of being a premie in general. Also, there are a lot of needy people in those groups - because I have boundary problems myself, that can be overwhelming to me. And, as you said, some of the people in 12-Step groups act like it's a cult and are very hard-line about the AA philosophy and so forth. I have heard a lot of people say that you just have to find the right group or particular meeting that's right for you, and I think that's true. By the way, I certainly didn't think you were making an 'indictment' or being condescending in suggesting this - I am glad that you've found help and support in the 12 Step groups. Thanks again for your post, and take care - Katie

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 01:51:23 (EST) From: JW Email: None To: Gabriel Golden Subject: Re: The source of Prempal's power Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 02:11:27 (EST) From: JW Email: None To: JW Subject: Re: The source of Prempal's power Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 21:50:53 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk To: Gabriel Golden Subject: Re: The source of Prempal's power Message:

Excellent post there Gabriel. You've written about some things I had in the back of my mind, very well. I saw the Lord and now I realise that it was because of me that he was God. If you are brainwashed into believing that his every glance at you is a knowing glance of the Lord God Almighty in perfect human form; then you see God. Perhaps it is an hallucination. I have to be honest, it was only twice that I saw Maharaji and felt he was God. All the other times I was bored stiff. So I think now that I was projecting myself onto him and was seeing a relationship with God which I had and which I projected onto Maharaji. It's a brilliant trick that. For it to work, people have to really believe that Maharaji is God. That belief is achieved and developed through countless hours of satsang. Everyone was telling me that Maharaji was God. I couldn't see it for a long time and that used to freak me out. This manifestation of God hallucination is a very powerful thing. Perhaps it's not even an hallucination but a possible reality which we conjure up in order to fulfull the need to be with God. It really affected me deeply because I was left wondering what was reality?

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 17:30:23 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: Gabriel Golden Subject: Re: The source of Prempal's power Message:

GG, Strange handle, nice post. Well done in your early escape! John.

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 21:05:48 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: JHB Subject: And I was expecting Gabrial JHS... Message:

god + is + * Luv* Cool post, tho.

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 15:11:54 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: All Subject: Emails from Bim and somebody else Message:

Here's an email with no message other than the subject. Received: from madog.lamp.ac.uk (madog-gw.lamp.ac.uk [194.80.178.1]) by ****xxxx with SMTP id KAA07274 for drek@oz.net; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 10:20:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by madog.lamp.ac.uk; (5.65v4.0/1.3/10May95) id AA05951; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:29:24 GMT Received: from somewhere by smtpxd Message-Id: 3.0.6.32.19991123183231.008e5180@pop3 X-Sender: NT250@pop3 (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:32:31 +0000 To: drek@oz.net From: NT250 NT250@lamp.ac.uk Subject: your web site. What exactly have you got against maharaji? Have you recieved knowledge? Did anybody demand miney from you? How can you view the message 'what you are looking for is withn you' as damaging or untrue? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset='us-ascii' X-UIDL: 7c-!!hZ+'!*Qo'!K,0'! Here's the email I rec'd from Bim Doubtfire from a Hotmail account using some server in the Netherlands: Hi Roger I thought that someone would figure out about my latest posts. Anyway honestly I intended not to come back to your pages, but curiousity drove me back as I had another waiting day. At least I have to say that there is some humour at the forums, I really laughed when someone made link to Bim pages. The reason for me to come to the pages was a coincident. I was going to go to another country, but it got postphoned so I was a bit bored. I think you invited me to dinner, and then I invited you, but probably I will not come to LA for a long time. Later this week I am however going to Atlanta It concerns me that the people at these pages seems to be stuck in their own suffering and anger. I remember I surfed into the Forum a couple of years ago, and I remeber there were so much anger. And when I found it again, it seemed like the anger had increased. To me it seems like a bunch of people has this negativity as a focus point in their life. I honestly do not think it is very good for their mental health. I do not think it is very good for my mental state of being either to read and engage in the stuff at the Forum, so I hope I will manage to keep away. Sincerely Bim

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 11:07:37 (EST) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: All Subject: Download Page Updated Message:

You may now download updates (dated November 23, 1999) of the 'EV-DLM Papers' website, at EV-DLM Papers' Download Page Or download the whole website's content to have it on your computer' hard disk (PC or Mac) if you don't have it yet!

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 07:50:07 (EST) From: JHB Email: brauns@dircon.co.uk To: All Subject: Pal versions of LOTU Video Message:

I have finally got a round tuit and have made PAL copies of the LOTU video. Anyone who wants to borrow one please let me know. First come, first served:-) John.

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 22:44:27 (EST) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: JHB Subject: Me, me, me..! Message:

Put me on top of the list. Shall I email you or what?

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 13:55:39 (EST) From: Charlie Email: None To: JHB Subject: Re: Pal versions of LOTU Video Message:

Hi John, yes I'd like to have a look at this vid. It sounds far more entertaining the the recent EV releases. Cheers

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 11:04:28 (EST) From: Katie Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: JHB Subject: US/Canadian version of LOTU Video Message:

First of all - thank you, John for making the PAL copies! There is also at least one copy of LOTU in whatever video format they use in the US and Canada. This video is currently circulating - if anyone would like to see it, please e-mail me. It may take a while to get to you, but it's worth seeing. For those of you that don't know - the LOTU video is a documentary about Soul Rush and Millenium (the big festival in the Astrodome in 1973). It's a fairly accurate portrayal of premie life back then. It contains a lot of footage of Maharaji, his brothers and mother, and of Rennie Davis, who was then a devotee. Also some great commentary by Abbie Hoffman, who was NOT a devotee.

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 12:48:11 (EST) From: JW Email: None To: Katie Subject: It Also Shows M Hit In His Chubby Face With A Pie Message:

It's worth watching just for that! Also check out Maharaji's youthful arrogance at the Millennium 'press conference.' He didn't come accross too well and I think that was the last "press conference" he gave in his life.

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 05:57:22 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: All Subject: Maharaji as an Investor Message:

Would any premies care to comment on Maharaji's claim to be a successful private investor with several start up companies? We all know that these start up companies were built on unpaid premie labor and that any money invested was coerced from premies as expressions of devotion. So can any premie defend Maharaji's deliberate attempt to deceive any casual surfers of his website? John.

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 07:24:21 (EST) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: JHB Subject: Re: Maharaji as an Investor Message:

John Can you name the companies involved and give the amounts and details of the specific sources of funding for each? Maybe then you will be able to substantiate your extremely generalised assertion that 'We all know that these start up companies were built on unpaid premie labor and that any money invested was coerced from premies...' . Certainly, the alleged deception of any 'casual surfers' that you have ascribed to Maharaji would be exposed by such hard evidence, wouldn't it? Can you provide this or are we to be subjected to another typical ex-premie smear campaign based on prejudice and hatred. Mel

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 09:12:32 (EST) From: Cynthia G. Email: cynthia@madriver.com To: Mel Bourne Subject: Yeah, I Can Name a Few Message:

Mel, From 1979 through 1980 I was an ashram premie working at DECA. I worked in administration so I had personal knowledge of Quantum, Inc., the company that purchased the airplane B707, for m. We worked for no wages. We received a $10 per week allowance as ashram premies. Most everyone worked 18-24 a day, especially when m arrived back from the UK in 1979 and we moved to a 100,000 sq ft. 'complex' where m then had hundreds of premies at his disposal for free (the married ones got a stipend which I'm sure was not at employment market rate at the time). It would be impossible to audit how many unpaid man-hours m got for free, because no timecards were kept. Equally impossible would be calculating the amount of cash donations that were filtered through various companies, eg. Quantum, Inc. which purchased the plane and leased it to DECA. Specifically, cash was obtained through community fundraising and was considered private because it was 'tax deductible' (DLM was classified as a church), and it was a BIG SECRET PROJECT which premies were told not to speak about per m's direction (agya).. These may be generalizations to you, but that's how things work in the world of maharaji. Cash flows in and cash goes out--no one's answerable to anyone but m. I was right there every day, with m personally, with his honchos at the time. Cash had to come in to fund the 707 project the cost was in the millions. EV and Visions are considered non-profit organizations. Why is that? Have you seen the latest Visions Holiday catelogue? $275.00 US for a silk shawl from India? That cheap Indian-made box? I have an acquaintance who travels the world looking for 3rd world products to mark up about 2000%. It's so immoral. Now m's using the Indian premies to soak the US premies. Successful private investor? maharaji? LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!! He lives off the blood, sweat and tears of his followers, which I am not, anymore. If this sounds harsh it is meant to. If you want real details, talk to m personally or his brother Raja. I'm sure they know how successful things have been. (Off the backs of devotees). Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 11:58:00 (EST) From: Mel, you stupid jerk, Email: None To: Cynthia G. Subject: Why won't you address Cynthia's posts on M's $ corruption? (NT) Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 12:55:12 (EST) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Whoever...., Subject: Re: Why won't you address Cynthia's posts on M's $ corruption? (NT) Message:

What can I possibly say?

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 14:04:15 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: What you could say.... Message:

Well you could say that it's very clear to anyone other than a brain dead cult member that any start up successes that M boasts about on his website were built on the backs of unpaid or very low paid premie labor. Now couldn't you? But I bet you won't. John.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 05:45:46 (EST) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: JHB Subject: More said......... Message:

John I, like Cynthia, yourself, and many other premies and ex's had and still have choices about what we get involved in. I think that it is a reasonable bet that the involvement of her and other premies in the 'service' that she has outlined was probably consentual in most cases. Premeis were falling over themselves to get close too Maharaji, do full time service etc, etc. So really it is a matter of perceived value, and boy how the values have now changed. I'm sure Cynthia and many like her saw incredible value in being involved in these activities at the time, now in retrospect the value is being reviewed and assessed in $$$ and time terms. Fair enough, I suppose as we get older we see things differently from the impetuosity of our youth! I think at the time all the stakeholders would have seen it as a win/win situation. Premies got do do 'service' to please their 'Lord', and Maharaji gets a free (and, in the main) willing labour force, so I think your view of explotation and 'unpaid' labour actually distorts the reality of the situation, the labour was freely and lovingly given and was freely and lovingly accepted. As I said, we have choices, and if ex's are now bemoaning their lot from years ago, clearly they are not happy with the choices that THEY made. I had the same opportunities at the time but felt extremely uncomfortable pursuing them, consequently I studiously avoided what I considered to be the zealous hyperactivity of the day. I don't know if this was a wise choice or not, but if following the example of others had led to me becoming an ex, maybe it was the right choice. Changing the subject a little, you remarked in your "No hate but a little anger" post above: For all premies who keep repeating their mantra that the people here are filled with hate and anger can I just repeat that for me, and the exes I've met (and I'm sure others) there is no hate, and just occasionally a lttle anger. I can't prove this to except to ask you to respect my honesty. Could I suggest that you examine the tone of your posts, because I think that you actually come across as very contemptuous of Maharaji and premies, so when I read about "brain dead cult members" in your posts, I have great difficulty respecting your honesty on the matter. Mel

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 06:19:53 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Re: More said......... Message:

Mel, I agree with you about how premies perceived their service at the time (although lots of service didn't get the premies anywhere near M). My point is not about ex-premies' revised attitudes to their service, but about Maharaji's boast about investing in startup companies. Don't you think that boast is a bit silly given the cheap labor those companies were founded on? I actually think his entire attempt to include in his CV areas outside his spiritual teaching a little bizarre. Regarding my lack of hatred and my honesty, I do honestly think you are a brain dead cult member, but I neither hate you or Maharaji. This is my opinion, and although it is certainly insulting to you, I do believe it is true. Why you would assign such gratitude and devotion to someone for teaching you some meditation techniques is a little hard for me to understand now. Let me make it very clear - any experience you get from meditation comes from you, not him. He doesn't love you - he probably doesn't know who you are. Any belief you have that he does love you is entirely your imagination. Your inability to see that is the evidence that part of your brain, your critical thinking ability, is indeed not functioning. As for you being a cult member, from the outside it looks like a cult, so why shouldn't I call it a cult, and call you a cult member? John the insultingly honest

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 19:42:52 (EST) From: URL Email: None To: Cynthia G. Subject: To Mel Message:

Mel Just stopped by to see if things have changed here and, surprise, surprise... they haven't. Forgive me if I sound high and mighty but I really have to ask you, why do you waste your time arguing with these idiots? I know you might ask, who am I to talk, but during my tenure as a spokesperson for the cause I attained enlightenment and true wisdom. This is what I learned: - A premie is playing against a stacked deck here. You can only end up looking as bad as them... at best. - Exes don't want to consider Maharaji's actions in ANY positive light because they've got venom in their veins, and they love to feed on each other's venom... it helps fill the void. - At the end of the day, Maharaji's efforts are not phased an inch by the monotone din from this cyber-peanut gallery. Having said that, you can't help but be awed by the deafening ignorance spewing forth from the pages of this forum. Such ignorance is nothing new to him, or any other master for that matter. - Maharaji does an excellent job of defending himself, if he were to choose to do so. If he does ask for our help, I'm sure we'll be first in line. - The malcontents here will continue to wallow in their own shit until they choose not to. And really who care's... if that's what they want to do. - It is just as unhealthy for a premie as it is for an ex-premie to be addicted to posting on the internet. Just a few thoughts on the matter Mel. I don't think I've said anything above that is not 100% true.

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 11:39:00 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: URL Subject: Wallow wallow Message:

URL, You 'just dropped in to see if things have changed here' eh? So what did you think may have happened? Maybe the lord revealed himself to all of us in a dream, we realised the error of our ways, we've gone back to believing God is snot, there's such a thing as a 'Perfect Master', and we've decided to use this site to sing his praises. You think we're a load of idiots because we no longer worship the chubby Indian bloke. That says a lot more about you than it does about us URL. You say Maharaji is not phased an inch by the dodgy goings on of his organisation being exposed on the internet. That's not what I heard Mel. I heard he's furious. You say he does an excellent job of defending himself. You can't be serious. He avoids any discussion with anyone who doesn't worship him. He hates criticism of any kind. He's living in a 'Howard Hughes' type, ingrowing toenail sort of world, surrounded by people who only tell him what he wants to hear- 'It's so beautiful Maharaji..etc' The mindless attitude that you need to follow Maharaji doesn't stand up to criticism, or intelligent debate, from you, your master, or any of his followers. As is plain in your post, your only defence is blind faith and abuse. URL, wise and enlightened one, you're in a cult, just like the Moonies, the Harry Krishnas and the Orange people. Anth the wallower in darkness, delusion and confusion.

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 11:27:11 (EST) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: URL Subject: Mel to URL Message:

Hi URL Thanks for your thoughts and advise regarding premies posting on this site. While I agree with a lot of your comments, I read and post here for basically two reasons: 1. It is quite evident that a lot of the ex’s on this site have been severely hurt by their association with Maharaji’s “mission” and I seek to understand this beyond just the rhetoric. The depth of feeling expressed here is really quite profound and cannot be ignored because these people are definitely are NOT going to go away or shut up as a matter of convenience for you, me, Maharaji or anyone else. 2 I do not expect to be able to change anyone’s mind here, but seek to provide an alternative view to the overwhelming negativity expressed about Maharaji and knowledge and, if possible, to challenge some of the wilder allegations. Whether we, as premies, like it or not, the ex’s have commenced a public debate about what Maharaji is all about and I don’t consider it at all unreasonable to respond, especially if I think that the debate is unfair, one sided and any allegations unsubstantiated. I’m sure this may cause discomfort for many premies, but the world has changed and we have to live with it. I cannot agree with your contention that Maharaji's efforts will not be “phased an inch” by this but I think that issues like those expressed here have to be examined head on, ignoring them doesn’t mean they don’t exist or that they will disappear, and with the sophisticated communication on the Internet in the public arena it is very likely people will be strongly influenced by what is published on sites like this. Will this site have a detrimental effect on Maharaji’s work? I really don’t know, but I guess I’m a little more pessimistic than you on this matter, but I firmly believe it’s effect shouldn’t be cavalierly dismissed or underestimated. Finally, I do not consider myself as a “spokesman for the cause”, but I certainly don’t feel shy about expressing what’s important to me, even though I concede that sometimes this expression may appear inept. Mel

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 11:48:34 (EST) From: Susan Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Susan to Mel Message:

Mel, This post sounded so rational I just had to respond. Maybe you will answer these questions. #1. I think that Rawat did present himself as the Messiah and benefited tremendously from the fact that most premies felt he was God or God's chosen messenger. I think that if Rawat was of even the most average of intelligence he knew premies were worshipping him as such. The spin of we did not understand Indian culture just doesn't fly. No excuse I have heard flies. If I accept that he now presents himself as just a guy, . ( I am not sure I accept that but a lot of premies say that is what he does now and it could be I am not there ) than how do you deal with the years from which he arrived in the US until the mid eighties or whenver it changed without holding him responsible for letting people believe this about him if he knew it was not true? I think until he was to apologize and take responsibillty for his part in it there is no reason to make excuses for him or forgive him for it. #2 Did you know Abi? I noticed when she posted who she was to you that you disappeared. What are your feelings about what she and I have to say? Please know I have never said an untrue word about it on this site.

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 12:36:32 (EST) From: Mel Bourne Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com To: Susan Subject: Mel to Susan Message:

Susan You used to be known as Gs mom, right? In answer to your questions. #1 I agree with you that Maharaji must have been aware of how premies regarded him as a divinity, but I beleive that he 'inherited' all these trappings from India. This certainly has changed over the years, whether this change resulted because he no longer believed in his own 'divinity' or he saw the premie belief in his 'divinity' as an obstruction to the promotion of knowledge, or for any other reason, I don't know. The fact is, though, he does now present himself as a human being promoting something that he feels is very important. No complicating 'divinity' issues these days. Some premies may still believe this, others may not, but it's not really an issue in the experience of knowledge. #2. I was not aware that Abi told me who she was, so I am not aware of her 'story'. I must apologise if there was a perception that I was evading her issue, this is not the case. My work takes me away from home a lot and that means that I cannot read or respond to the Forum often for weeks on end. Even when I'm home I just browse here. Anyway, if she wants to communicate with me my email address is at the top. In direct answer to your issue, I have been a parent myself and had a daughter who was 7 or 8 years old in the mid 1970's. I would have been absolutely appalled if she had been in a similar situation to you or your friends (and who knows how I would have reacted). Personally, I have no reason to beleive that you are being dishonest and making up stories, so you shouldn't worry on that score. I share the revulsion and sadness that anyone who has heard about your situation feels. I don't know that my expression of this can really contribute to a sense of healing for you but somehow I hope it might. Mel Susan

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 13:18:23 (EST) From: Susan Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Susan to Mel Message:

I guess what you are saying is that to you the issue of that he let people worship him until the mid eighties, (he would have been in his mid twenties then) is acceptable to you? Perhaps because he may have been raised to believe he was divine? I just do not see it that way at all. The sacrifices premies made to him because they had this belief, which I beleive he actively encouraged but he certainly did nothing to dispel, were really rather tremendous. People gave him trust funds. People joined the ashrams. People literally sacrificed the best years of their lives trying to live as devotees of the perfect master. These in my mind are not small inconsequential sacrifices. I cannot accept that he just changed without directly facing those people who devoted their lives to him while he did allow ( and I believe encourage ) the worship and facing this issue. It is just too mammoth of an issue. I have a huge capacity for forgiveness but I do not see that there is any evidence he has ever acknowledged that allowing people to worship him well into his adulthood was wrong or that he owes those people an explanation or apology. I think an apology and explanation are in order if he were to want to be an ethical citizen of our planet. Thank you for your kind words and acceptance of what happened to us with Jagdeo. As I recall Abi asked you if you knew her parents and then you seemed to split that is why I thought you may well know them. That would be pretty intense I think. I appreciate your not questioning our veracity.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 11:27:31 (EST) From: Katie Email: None To: Roger Subject: Roger - Mel and Susan **BEST OF FORUM** ? Message:

In my opinion anyway - P.S. I'm talking about four posts - beginning with 'Mel to URL', and ending with 'Susan to Mel'

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 10:30:06 (EST) From: Katie Email: None To: URL Subject: reply to URL Message:

Dear URL - I have a few comments on what you said - First, I find your generalizations about 'ex-premies' (or at least about the people who post on the forum) to be offensive. I know premies don't like it when people here talk about them in broad generalizations - they aren't all the same and neither are the ex-premies. Secondly - you wrote: At the end of the day, Maharaji's efforts are not phased an inch by the monotone din from this cyber-peanut gallery. I, personally, don't care about stopping 'Maharaji's efforts' very much. If he is who you say he is, he should certainly be able to handle criticism or opposing views like any other public figure. I know that there will always be people (like you and Mel, perhaps) who get something out of following Maharaji and practicing knowledge, and I don't see any point in trying to convince these people otherwise. However, there are other people who have doubts, questions, and so forth, and I feel that these people can benefit from the discussion on this forum. You're right that the 'deck is stacked against premies' on this forum - that's because it is an ex-premie forum. I guess I can understand your and Mel's desire to offer an opposing view, but frankly, I have a hard time understanding why premies would even WANT to post here as frequently as you and Mel do (and did). When the forum starts affecting my life in the real world, I know it's time for me to back off, and it's hard for me to believe that this forum doesn't affect the premies who post here frequently. Just my thoughts - Sincerely, Katie

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 21:01:42 (EST) From: A premie friend Email: None To: URL Subject: Re: To Mel Message:

URL, You need to stop even READING the site. Why don't you call your ISP and see if you can have your internet service disconnected. The fact that you said you were leaving and you are having a hard time actually doing it concerns me. Maybe they are getting to you. It looks like you might also be tempted to post under a new pseudonym if you read something that especially is insulting. That is why I suggest not reading at all. If you do not think you can do it get off the internet entirely.

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 20:39:55 (EST) From: Joey Email: None To: URL Subject: Re: To URL Message:

It is just as unhealthy for a premie as it is for an ex-premie to be addicted to posting on the internet. I guess that means you've just experienced a relapse? Be careful URL. Addiction is an insidious disease. It can leave you totally Nil and void:::))

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 11:04:08 (EST) From: Susan Email: None To: Cynthia G. Subject: Re: Yeah, I Can Name a Few Message:

You reminded me of something that struck me when I read another post, the one in which Rawat bemoaned the plight of rich people, obviously including himself among them, and what a misunderstood lot they are. Such an ugly behavior, I have seen it in others who complain about the problems of having money to an audience of people dealing with the problems of not having enough. But it seems so odd to hear Rawat include himself among the wealthy. I think because of how he has acquired his wealth. I think it would seem odd to listen to John Gotti complain about his bucks too, or a bank robber, or someone who has become wealthy from any kind of scam. The only reason that poor Rawat is the misunderstood rich boy that he is that he has recieved donations from the very followers he is complaining to. His wealth has been acquired in a very bizzare and I think immoral way. Strange to see him then complain about the problems it brings him to the very people who sacrificed so much to give it to him.

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 11:19:19 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Mel Snoring Subject: You dumb shit, Mel Message:

Of course, there's always Amtext. Profits from which are skimmed and donated to Fat Ass. Nuthin' wrong wid that right, Melby?

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 20:15:00 (EST) From: Joey Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: You dumb shit, Mel Message:

Good point Ger. And lets not forget that every amtext premie is exceedingly proud of the fact that the fruits of his labor does not benefit m's organization....but the 'personal needs' of m and his family. They have been and will continue to be constantly reminded of that fact by the likes of Chuck Nathan, Barbara Brogan and Colin Neiburger. It's an important piece of info to be drilled into every Amtext premie during the course of their indoctrination, and because of it Amtext premies tend to feel themselves 'personally' bonded to m in a special way that makes them part of his elite. Or at least so they think.

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 12:13:15 (EST) From: Cynthia G. Email: cynthia@madriver.com To: All Subject: Miragi and Wealth Message:

Hi-- Susan's post reminded me of a 'talk' m gave which I heard on a video (late 90's). M was talking (again) about going to pilot courses which he continuously does (and it's very expensive). So he says that he was standing around during a break and someone asked him why he always wears suits. He responded 'because I can afford to.' That remark kind of jolted me as a very socially inept way of responding to a person. Kind of rude. Haven't a few folks like Bob Mishler stated that m was often awkward in situations where he wasn't 'Maharaji' to people? Then I think m realized the blunder of how he stated it in his satsang, because he went on in his blaa, blaa sort of way and got around to saying he wears suits all the time because they are comfortable. I'll bet their comfortable. Personally tailored. Who wouldn't be comfy with all the luxuries of a millionnaire? Best, Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 13:00:13 (EST) From: JW Email: None To: Cynthia G. Subject: The Arrogance of Those Who Get Wealth For Doing Nothing Message:

I remember one time in Miami, Maharaji came and spoke at the DECA complex. For about a half hour he talked about nothing but his new, red Ferrari and how great it was. I'm not sure if he said it in that particular 'satsang' but I think Anon once mentioned that Maharaji was talking about another, extremely expensive sports car he owned (just for the purpose of 'spreading knowledge,' of course :)) and he said something really arrogant that could have come out of Marie Antoinette's mouth, something like: 'It's a more incredible car than you will ever own.' Of course I think he was speaking to ashram premies at the time. That 'successful investor' bullshit is so laughable but it's also very sad. Considering the thousands and thousands of checks written out to 'Guru Maharaj Ji' and sent to his P.O. Box in Malibu over the years, and considering the millions he raised giving darshan, and considering the millions he ripped off from the supposed non-profit Divine Light Mission, and considering that he has had free, slave labor for his various endeavors, includiing slave servants to wait on he and his family hand and foot, and considering if he just 'invested' a small part of that capital into the stock market, he would be considered 'successful.' If you have basically unlimited wealth, without having to earn a cent of it, and you don't pay wages for the work people do for you, how could you possibily NOT, be a 'successful investor?' You would have to be a total moron to be anything BUT successful.

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 15:41:20 (EST) From: Charlie Email: None To: JW Subject: Re: The Arrogance of Those Who Get Wealth For Doing Nothing Message:

Hi JW, this reminds me of Thomas Keneally's Schindler's List (Ark). Schindler made it rich during the war not because he was a good businessman but because he was a 'fixer'. Because of his immoral contacts he was able to get cheap labor for his factories. Unlike M Schindler saw the suffering he was part of and made moves to change things for the better. Anyway after the war Schindler tried his hand at legitimate business and failed every time. I believe M would also fail on a level playing field.

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 15:19:50 (EST) From: PCH Mole Email: None To: JW Subject: Slave wages at the residence Message:

I knew a person who worked in the 1990s at the Malibu residence for a number of years (40 hours a week) and was paid minium wage or $5 an hour. I don't recall whether they got benefits or not, but I doubt it.

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Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 16:26:39 (EST) From: JW Email: None To: PCH Mole Subject: Re: Slave wages at the residence Message:

It's kind of amazing that he paid anything. I know that for years premies 'did service' being servants at 'the residence' and were paid nothing as ashram premies. I guess after the ashrams closed he had to start paying them something. How does one live on $5.00 an hour in Malibu? On the street?

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 14:42:22 (EST) From: Cynthia G. Email: cynthia@madriver.com To: JW Subject: Re: The Arrogance of Those Who Get Wealth For Doing Nothing Message:

Hi JW, I remember that satsang. On occasion, I had the need to give m a message while he was in his 'garage.' The vehicles in there were absolutely incredible. He'd drive them out of the garage and gate and 'thrill the premies,' which was, in retrospect, a way of inspiring us to slave on. I remember that the autos slowly started being shipped (premies drove rented trailor trucks from Malibu) to the complex. On Marolyn's birthday, he bought her a new Caddy. Premies decorated it with ribbon and she was brought to the garage--surprise!!!! The impeccable care that was being taken just with that auto collection would have cost an immense amount of money. By worldly standards, that collection was very impressive. The insurance alone must have been astronomical. Premies were doing the work and the reward was 'getting to do it for m.' That statement itself is revealing 'GETTING TO DO IT FOR M=I AM INDOCTRINATED INTO SLAVERY.' I remember at one point his Mercedes stretch limo was parked in the middle of the main work warehouse--absolutely beautiful car. It was being reupolstered by the seamstresses who were there to work on the airplane. That's the kind or arrogance he had. Not only flaunt his wealth in front of his slaves, but give them MORE work to do at his whimsy. He's a bad dude. I don't think he ever worked on his cars, at the most his hands got a little grease on them. I know, because I saw the soap in his bathroom after his 'garage' visits'. Got to go, love to all, Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 20:23:44 (EST) From: Joey Email: None To: Cynthia G. Subject: Hey , have we forgotten... Message:

....Rainbow Groceries that was also built on the backs of premie slave labor? Of course it was converted into Premark in a short lived attempt for the company to proceed while hiding its past, until Premark itself folded.

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