Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Jan 19, 2000 at 08:16:52 (GMT)
From: Dec 31, 1999 To: Jan 15, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


Selene -:- time for a break again -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 01:58:10 (GMT)

Hihomumio -:- Thank You!!!! -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 00:43:24 (GMT)
__ Charlie -:- Thank You!!!! -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 13:46:20 (GMT)
__ __ Hihomumio -:- Frames -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 15:00:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Charlie -:- Frames -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 15:43:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Frames -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 17:00:50 (GMT)

Tor -:- previous correspondence -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 19:47:01 (GMT)
__ JW -:- Letting Maharaji off the Hook -:- Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 14:59:26 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Hay Tor -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 11:53:14 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- the usual denial and more -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 22:36:16 (GMT)
__ __ Tor -:- the usual denial and more -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 00:18:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Runamok -:- premie vs expremie thing -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 08:23:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tor -:- premie vs expremie thing -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 21:48:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Christopher -:- Bathwater vs Baby thing -:- Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 21:14:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- reply Pt 1 -:- Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 16:32:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- reply Pt 2 -:- Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 17:05:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tor -:- reply Pt 2 -:- Tues, Jan 11, 2000 at 00:48:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- reply Pt 2 -:- Wed, Jan 12, 2000 at 06:23:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- To Tor -:- Tues, Jan 11, 2000 at 16:35:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Shifting -:- premie vs expremie thing -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 17:04:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Shifting -:- browsers -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 17:54:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Ms. K. -:- browsers -:- Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 02:14:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SHIFTING -:- THANKS -:- Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 02:37:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ms. K. -:- THANKS -:- Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 03:17:14 (GMT)

la-ex -:- loving yourself -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 18:36:20 (GMT)
__ JW -:- Changed Semantics -:- Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 17:58:37 (GMT)
__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Changed Semantics -:- Tues, Jan 11, 2000 at 01:45:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ JW -:- Changed Semantics -:- Tues, Jan 11, 2000 at 22:32:22 (GMT)
__ Deputy Dog -:- loving yourself -:- Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 03:14:25 (GMT)
__ __ Mili -:- loving yourself -:- Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 12:49:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bili -:- Thanks yet again Mili-NT -:- Wed, Jan 12, 2000 at 06:28:57 (GMT)
__ __ pup -:- loving yourself -:- Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 06:52:57 (GMT)

Des Perado -:- Recent Exes Forum -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 08:37:47 (GMT)
__ Michael -:- Recent Exes Forum -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 15:23:53 (GMT)
__ __ Des Perado -:- THE LOST POST -:- Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 03:30:12 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Recent Exes Forum -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 18:18:59 (GMT)
__ __ selene -:- Recent Exes Forum -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 18:37:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- I can see the posts -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 19:43:37 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- Recent Exes Forum -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 14:02:53 (GMT)
__ __ Runamok -:- browser problems -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 18:59:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- browser problems -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 19:47:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- browser problems -:- Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 04:34:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger Drek -:- Agreeing with Run again - slow -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 22:59:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- agree- slow -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 00:12:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Hihomumio -:- agree- slow -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 01:09:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- agree- slow -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 01:50:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hihomumio -:- just curious -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 02:17:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- just curious -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 02:21:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Charlie -:- Curious about Frames? -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 13:42:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Curious about Frames? -:- Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 04:50:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hihomumio -:- Curious about Frames? -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 15:19:17 (GMT)

RE Administrator -:- the 'Recent Exes' forum -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 03:48:09 (GMT)
__ Sir David -:- On the other hand -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 06:41:07 (GMT)
__ __ Basil Rathbone -:- On the other hand -:- Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 03:46:42 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- On the other hand -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 06:52:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- And does anybody realise -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 14:26:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- But it's a a fulltime job (nt) -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 23:00:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Yeah, but he doesn't get paid! -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 03:33:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- And does anybody realise -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 17:58:35 (GMT)

Ya'qub -:- MAHARAJI -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 03:19:31 (GMT)
__ Mike -:- Depth -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 16:21:03 (GMT)
__ OJ's Dog -:- MAHARAJI -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 07:48:41 (GMT)
__ JW -:- And So Repetitive and Inane -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 06:01:45 (GMT)

Selene -:- related sites -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 20:57:06 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- related sites -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 21:05:39 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- related sites -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 21:11:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ ham -:- related sites -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 11:56:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- related sites -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 17:56:16 (GMT)

Selene -:- Roger? someone? -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 20:00:17 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- I meant RTFM -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 20:06:20 (GMT)
__ __ me again -:- I got it figured out -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 20:13:18 (GMT)

carol -:- Just had to post this.... -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 17:27:49 (GMT)
__ Powerman -:- Just had to post this.... -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 18:07:45 (GMT)
__ __ Lucy -:- Just had to post this.... -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 18:35:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ michael -:- Just had to post this.... -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 19:34:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Just had to post this.... -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 19:44:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- No, left to our own devices: -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 08:14:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- No, left to our own devices: -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 04:01:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ carol -:- You're right! -:- Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 21:43:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- No, left to our own devices: -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 17:36:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- No, left to our own devices: -:- Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 22:35:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- No, left to our own devices: -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 13:40:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- No, left to our own devices: -:- Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 22:45:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ michael -:- Just had to post this.... -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 19:53:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Just had to post this.... -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 20:18:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Powerman -:- Just had to post this.... -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 19:09:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lucy -:- Just had to post this.... -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 19:32:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Just had to post this.... -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 19:42:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Lucy -:- Just had to post this.... -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 19:52:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- I think I like -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 20:23:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- I think I like -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 20:33:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- I think I like -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 20:40:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- I think I like -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 21:05:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- I think I like -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 21:10:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- I think I like -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 21:24:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Liar (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 21:29:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Liar (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 21:49:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Liar (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:05:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Liar (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:16:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Liar -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:36:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Liar -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:46:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ carol -:- This is getting funny.. -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 08:55:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Liar (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:21:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Liar (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:39:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ selene -:- and ps stalking -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 23:57:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- and ps stalking -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 00:00:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- and ps stalking -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 00:06:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- and ps before I get outta here -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 03:35:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- and ps before I get outta here -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 03:40:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- and ps before I get outta here -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 04:03:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- and ps before I get outta here -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 04:19:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- and ps before I get outta here -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 04:25:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- and ps before I get outta here -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 05:18:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Liar (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:48:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Liar (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 23:24:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Liar (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 23:27:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Liar (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 23:44:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- sure you got it -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 23:46:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- sure you got it -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 23:50:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- sure you got it -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 23:53:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- sure you got it -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 23:58:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Liar (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:37:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn's guardian angel -:- I think I like -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 20:39:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- I think I like -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 21:02:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ angel -:- I think I like -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 21:13:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ michael -:- Just had to post this.... -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 19:56:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Des Perado -:- Just had to post this.... -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:04:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mufti -:- Just had to post this.... -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:25:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Inna Cognito -:- Sounds right (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:13:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Just had to post this.... -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 20:26:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ michael -:- Just had to post this.... -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 21:55:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Just had to post this.... -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:12:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ michael -:- Just had to post this.... -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:35:53 (GMT)

Christopher -:- Help wanted!!! -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 14:33:20 (GMT)
__ Yes, you do... -:- need help -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:56:43 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- Utter BS let me count the ways -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 19:57:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Yes -:- Not BS, just a realistic view -:- Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 20:35:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- realistic if you are in a cult -:- Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 21:18:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Yes -:- No just realistic -:- Fri, Jan 14, 2000 at 02:25:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- Bingo, Susan (nt) -:- Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 03:07:51 (GMT)
__ __ Christopher -:- ... and I find it here! -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 15:50:57 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Hey are you seriouss? -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 21:41:45 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Charity? -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 16:03:00 (GMT)
__ __ Christopher -:- Tongues of men ... -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 16:36:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- Tongues of men ... -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 20:17:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Christopher -:- ...and angels -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 16:48:26 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Ideas -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 15:03:02 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Here's some -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 16:50:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Christopher -:- ...and then some -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 17:21:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- Wahadamar -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 17:18:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Shifting -:- Wahadamar -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 18:30:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ shifting -:- Here's some -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 16:55:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Do you own Wahadamar videos? -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 17:56:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Shifting -:- Do you own Wahadamar videos? -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 18:45:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Shifting -:- Do you own Wahadamar videos? -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 18:43:56 (GMT)
__ __ Christopher -:- Ideas wanted too! -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 15:42:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ JW -:- 'My take on the subject' -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 21:34:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- You're right, but -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 03:07:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nedda -:- You're right, but -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 16:43:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- You're right, but -:- Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 06:56:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cc -:- You're right, but -:- Tues, Jan 11, 2000 at 23:59:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Christopher -:- Please clarify -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 14:22:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Please clarify -:- Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 22:34:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ SHIFTING -:- Ideas wanted too! -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 16:53:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Christopher -:- Ideas wanted too! -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 17:07:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shifting -:- Ideas wanted too! -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 17:15:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Christopher -:- Ideas wanted too! -:- Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 17:29:36 (GMT)


Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 01:58:10 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: selene@ocean.ccit.arizona.edu
To: Everyone
Subject: time for a break again
Message:
Hi all
I am posting this here and on AG. I realized this week, after being on line for hours and hours, that posting and reading the forum(s) is just too much for me right now.
I don't seem to be able to get clear sometimes, between what's real and wthat is just playing. I feel that I am too vulnerable and easily distracted and need to take a break.
I'm sure this won't be so disappointing for sone :)
But it's going to be a huge challenge for me!
Anyway I posted my email because I do hope my real friends here will stay in touch while I sort stuff out.
(hamzen I hope especially I can get more music sometime. )
And Powerman, the reason no CD yet is because he still hasn't finished!
I'll let you know somehow, when it's ready or just send it via snail mail.
I don't know if the 'truce' with you was sincere on your part Roger. I want to believe it was. I am going to try on my part.
OK. It's not about me :) so I'll stop boring you now.
I do care about the success here and will be checking in.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 00:43:24 (GMT)
From: Hihomumio
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Thank You!!!!
Message:
Yippeeeeee!!!!!!! Frames are back!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 13:46:20 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Hihomumio
Subject: Thank You!!!!
Message:
What frames are you thankful for?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 15:00:36 (GMT)
From: Hihomumio
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Frames
Message:
Hi Charlie-

If you go to the top of this page you will see a new option 'Frames'. If you click on it, this page will have 2 frames: the left side will show all the threads, the right side will show the text in the thread you choose. This was a feature that Brian had added not long before Forum 3 was closed-if I recall correctly, you were not with us yet. Very convenient!

Regards

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 15:43:02 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Hihomumio
Subject: Frames
Message:
Hi Hiho,

thanks. I've been wondering what you were going on about. Sorry for being such a dork. I must be blind.

Charlie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 17:00:50 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Frames
Message:
I'm with Charlie...if 'Frames' were a snake, I'd have died in my chair long ago. Nice little feature, btw.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 19:47:01 (GMT)
From: Tor
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: previous correspondence
Message:
Anth - Here's a belated reply to previous postings. Sorry, I'm not just a neophyte to this site and the Internet in general, but also to my new computer and server. Been having some problems. Didn't know I had been archived.

You asked if I were a premie or a non-premie. Why did that seem like 2 boxes? Just semantics, I guess. How about this - I'm a person with Knowledge. Is this cyber-outing? To be more specific, I appreciate having it and enjoy practicing it.

Glad you agree with me on the dated-ness of old premie lingo/concepts. The reason I'm aware of them is that I too received Knowledge a long time ago - 25+ years. Ditto 10 years ashram, Deca, even the attentive hospitality of Ted Patrick. Chances are good you and I might even know each other by our real names, or at least faces. So if there is a tale or two you could tell me, I'm sure I could return the favor. Incidently, 2 of my 4 best friends are ex-premies - I respect them and have no wish to engage in judging (an awful lot of which seems to be going on in the postings I've dropped in on. On both sides, I must say.)

I guess my main point here is that the lingo/concepts, lord/lilas are ancient history, even as concepts. And yet they are continually referenced by ex-premies as some sort of proof that 'premies' are out of touch, to say the least. I think those doing the referencing are equally out of touch. Let it go, already.

Might a cult be described as a community of like-minded individuals with their own concepts, language, and belief systems, somewhat apart from the maindtream? If so, might there be room in the future for a www.ex-ex-premie.org?

Sincerely, Tor.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 14:59:26 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Tor
Subject: Letting Maharaji off the Hook
Message:
I think it's interesting how your comments about all the 'Lord' stuff being in the past and how you pick and choose what you believe about Maharaji's cult and what you don't let's Maharaji completely off the hook. I think this is common among premies. It was certainly true when I was a premie that I was unable, terrified in fact, of ever criticizing Maharaji for either screwing up, for putting himself first ahead of his followers who had surrendered their lives to him, and for never accepting responsibility for anything negative that ever happened.

First, if all the lord stuff is in the past, why did Maharaji give darshan [have thousands line up to kiss his feet] in Amaroo, Australia in 1997? Why does Maharaji have the premies, including his own daughter, get up in front of thousands of premies and sing devotional love songs to him, including 'please teach me devotion,' 'he is pure and his love is deeper than the ocean,' and 'his lila has just begun?' Why does Maharaji get up and wiggle his fat body in front of the premies who scream in devotional ecstacy when he does? By the way, I saw the singing and the 'dancing' in a video from a program in Long Beach in 1998. So, this is not, contrary to what you said, 'ancient history.' Far from it. I would call it 'current events.'

Why does Maharaji release videos that are nothing more than Maharaji waddling around, getting in and out of cars, to low-grade new-age music, if he is not heading, and promoting, a personality cult?

See, the thing is Thor, you may be a thoroughly modern premie and moved beyond all that stuff, but Maharaji is actively promoting it. What's more, he has never, to my knowledge, even acknowledged, let along corrected or taken any responsiblity for, the fact that thousands of people responded to his demands and dedicated their lives to him in their youth and many damaged their lives as a result.

Since he presented himself as the incarnation of god, the lord of the universe, the perfect master, and asked that we surrender our lives and all we had to him, and told us that if we left the ashram, or worse if we stopped practicing knowledge, that horrible things would happen to us, he has a lot to answer for here. And he never has. What was that about, Thor, and why hasn't Maharaji shown some semblence of integrity and addressed it? And why does he continue the myth that he is a 'superior power in person' by the things he does now, including what I mentioned, above?

So, I think your position is intellectually dishonest, Thor. If you really are going to pick and choose what you believe, and if you don't believe that M is the incarnation of god, or some suprior being who is guiding your life, then you have to deal with that and reconcile Maharaji's behavior. I mean, if you aren't engaging in compartmentalized thinking, living in the passive voice, and doing all you can to protect Maharaji from citicism, that's what you have to do.

By the way, I was also in the ashram for 10 years and ad DECA. My involvement with Maharaji is one of the biggest regrets of my life, but that was a long time ago, now. But I'm not about to let somebody get away with the line we have heard so many times from premies, that that's all over now, and although Maharaji used to be god, he stopped being god about 1989, and although it used to be a cult, it isn't anymore. I say bullshit.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 11:53:14 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Tor
Subject: Hay Tor
Message:

AJW responded:
Hi Tor,

I hope you stick around so we can have a chat. I post under my real name, Anth. If you go over to Ex-premie.org, to the 'Journies' section, and read my 'Journey' under AJW, you'll probably realise whether you know me or not. You can always email me- I respect privacy and don't publish personal correspondance here.

Anyway, I'd like to ask about the main point in your post, how things have changed, 'lords and lilas being ancient history'.

I don't think this is the case Tor. I think this stuff has just gone underground. I'll tell you why.

1. Maharaji still believes all that stuff himself. He sees himself as the 'Living Perfect Master', in a chain of 'Perfect Masters' going back through his father, and including the founder of every major religion on Earth. (See his personal website for confirmation.)

2. All the people closest to Maharaji (the people he spends his time with) still believe this, and act like they do.

3. If you've been around 25 years Tor, you probably believe it too, although you may have changed the way you describe it to yourself. I may be wrong, but, how, for example, would you react if Maharaji came to your town, did a programme, or event, or whatever. Come Sunday morning it's 'Premies Only', some articulate instructor gives you a little, 'Don't tell anyone about this' briefing, and, yahoo, after all these years, a darshan line.

Would you go through and kiss his feet Tor?

If the answers 'Yes', then you should ask yourself if the 'main point' of your above post,'...the lingo/concepts, lord/lilas are ancient history, even as concepts.' is really true Tor.

(In one of my many dictionaries, 'cult' is defined as 'A religious worship esp. as expressed in ceremonies; study and pursuit and worship of'. This would seem to describe the darshan line more accurately than it describes a few individuals who post files on the internet from time to time).

Adios,

Anth the Historian

(PS Tor, how about swapping a your Ted Patrick tale for a darshan story or two?)

Looking forward to your response.

Anth the Inquisitor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 22:36:16 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Tor
Subject: the usual denial and more
Message:
Tor, we've heard the claim that the ex-premie community is a cult so many times. Your saying the same only tips us off as to what is your opening gambit and what others moves we can expect from you.

Consider another cult, say heroin addicts. The addicts are in a state of constant denial. The drug is killing them and will take away everything they have including their life. Yet, they say that they need it and it gives them peace. The addict is constantly abused by their master and their pusher.

The addicts are always lying to each other that they will kick and get clean which is like premies in their hope that Maharaji will make it all better somehow. The addicts like premies will also steal from each other to get more of what they want and what they need.

Yes, Tor, it is a new World of Knowledge and much of the past has been denied, denounced and swept under the rug. Not everyone who is an ex-premie is out of touch. There are plenty of us who only recently got out. Only the presentation and veneer of Maharaji's little world has changed. Much is still the same where Maharaji is still silently and secretly revered as the living Lord. Please do not insult my intelligence by saying that that is not the case. You and I know that it is still the same in regards to the drunken womanizing Maharaji.

We've seen other premies like yourself come to the Forum and say the same thing. It's funny how so many of you sound so much the same - all brainwashed by the same master plan.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 00:18:39 (GMT)
From: Tor
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: the usual denial and more
Message:
Roger, my comment about ex-premies constituting a cult in themselves was made somewhat tongue-in-cheek. It would indeed be a stretch to make that a bold claim, and I won't.

As far as opening gambits & further moves, I'm not approaching this format like a chess game. I'm taking it one message at a time. Since I'm new to the site, I have no idea what others have written in the past. These are my words, not a group's. I see your site has some well-versed responses to premie apologia, which you encourage readers to study & utilize. I haven't the same.

The heroin analogy - believe it or not, Knowledge is not killing me. Physically, psychologically, or spiritually. I live my own life, make my own choices, AND enjoy practicing Knowledge. Is that so hard to believe?

Re: Stealing from other premies like heroin addicts to get what I need? Not sure what you mean, but I doubt it.

Of course, I grant you, plenty still revere Maharaji as the L.of U. What can you do? I'm just not one of them.

Finally, your assessment of my condition, like others - 'all brainwashed by the same master plan' - apart from the judgement involved (and I realize I should expect no less here, though I would not care to issue a similar response in kind), it's the kind of blanket statement that actually lends credence to that ex-premie cult thing. After all, you must realize, a lot of you ex-premies sound the same as well.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 08:23:13 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Tor
Subject: premie vs expremie thing
Message:
Roger's probably more turned off to premies than some, but you will find a lot of hatred stirred up by any attempts at satsang. If it is really a question of personal tolerance and choice most people will begrudge your right.

You won't see a whole lot of ex-ex-premies, altho you will see quite a turnover from this website and others like it. People come and go from here. I have heard of only one person actually returning to knowledge in years of posting here (and almost 2 decades away from M'rage. When I hear of people still involved I am shocked, because clearly the numbers who leave are 90%+.

Some of us do meditate, however, my suggestion if you want to hang with us and maintain your guru thing in peace is not to attempt any satsang. Cut us slack for our cliches because it is our site. It gets really old when premies try to say all the same shit that we can say backwards in our sleep (you know like to someone who trained you to say it).

And don't forget, you won't find this kind of communication through your guru's auspices, and God knows he could afford a zillion websites with ultra-slick chatrooms.

By the way, if 'Guru is God' is such ancient history then how come you mention that there are those who still believe it in your second post?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 21:48:20 (GMT)
From: Tor
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: premie vs expremie thing
Message:
Runamok - Wasn't aware I was giving 'sang,' and don't want to. My last message was just responding to several points of Rogers.'

I've no doubt the number of ex's returning to whatever is taken to be the 'following' is miniscule. Must be the hardest, least desired step of all.

The comment regarding saying things all other premies say, just like we've been told to - again, as I mentioned in my previous post, I think there is some irony in the charge, given that this site includes a primer of rebuttals to be memorized and used in cimmunicating with premies. A similar list of recommended pre-programmed responses in a premie site would, I'm sure, be singled out as a perfect illustration of brain-washing in action.

I was glad to hear some in this community still like to practice meditation. It's an issue I don't see mentioned a lot. I guess the crux of what I have to say is just that - why throw the baby out with the bathwater? Bathwater, bilgewater, holy water - throw it all out, but keep the baby. But I recognize this as just my bias - throwing the baby out to is certainly everyone's option.

Hope I haven't aroused the ire you hinted at.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 21:14:22 (GMT)
From: Christopher
Email: None
To: Tor
Subject: Bathwater vs Baby thing
Message:
Tor, you say: 'I was glad to hear some in this community still like to practice meditation. It's an issue I don't see mentioned a lot.'

You then say: 'I guess the crux of what I have to say is just that - why throw the baby out with the bathwater? Bathwater, bilgewater, holy water - throw it all out, but keep the baby.'

But surely the baby is the meditation? And M the bathwater.

Like the Zen Buddhists say: 'If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him immediately'.

(i.e. find the master within yourself - and don't let ANYONE else be a substitute)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 16:32:23 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Tor
Subject: reply Pt 1
Message:
I know M'rage goes for the big distinction between what he says and what his followers say, but I don't. Like lingo and buzzwords, politically correct ideology comes down from on high, either directly or indirectly. Currently, followers (who are not to be called premies anymore) do not give satsang or so they tell us, but we hear the same rationalizations over and over. (The Lord thing is ancient history, our site is a hate site, trust your experience of over allegations of Rawatt's corruption or derelict behavior, etc.).

Personally, I take the apologia as a joke and I laughed aloud when reading it. I doubt anyone has memorized it, but there are a lot of people who come through and maybe someone has. That's a strong experience for us, that premies are spouting the same stuff (most common: it's your inner experience that's important), and we have heard the same stuff ourselves before we left.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 17:05:42 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: reply Pt 2
Message:
You can find information here which M doesn't want you to know. We do lose patience with premies sticking to the party line, so I give you fair warning. Act like a guest in someone's house. We don't have a forum specifically designed to interact with exes.

The Anything Goes forum, hosted by Sir Dave, is more premie-friendly, but goofier and 18+. If you go to the thread above 'Getting Political here' posted by 'the other Forum God', you can find a link to it if you perservere. Keep trying, it's in the polling booth.

and there's an email address from someone above in this thread who invited you to write them.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 11, 2000 at 00:48:03 (GMT)
From: Tor
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: reply Pt 2
Message:
Runamok - Appreciate your response. Thought I was acting like a guest; I never called this a hate site. I'm being very careful not to misquote, condemn, or insult. I see from other threads it can be easy to fall into, but I have no interest in engaging in that level of interaction.

But if everything I say is dismissed out of hand as more of the same party line, I may as well hang it up. I'm trying to respond from my own understanding, albeit one you may think you know. But I guess if I'm pre-judged as the hapless brain-washing victim, and all I express drivel, that's it for communication.

Thanks for the tip on anything goes; perhaps I'll check it out. Likewise, I'm aware of & intend to respond to AJW, kind poster of his address and man of good humor and civility. He invited me to read his Journey posting first, which I started to do but didn't have the time to finish- it alone appeared to be the journey of 1,000 miles. But what I read was enlightening and amusing.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 12, 2000 at 06:23:43 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Tor
Subject: reply Pt 2
Message:
The way I figure it is if you're reading this stuff you have some doubts about M'ragey. Way back when I was a premie, we used to grab gossip anywhere we could find it but, this turned out to be the route
out of premieville.

There is more info on JM's site (DLM/EV papers) about the actual history then you can find anywhere else in one place. But I don't see
how the history of the lineage (or the increased knowledge of M'rage's personal life which is scattered throughout the different websites) can lead to anything but bye-bye.

We're not here to meet premies who give us satsang, but I didn't mean to say that you had been doing that. It tends to be the other way around. You are here to hear what we are saying and at some point it can get tempting to try to turn the tables on us.

Personally I don't have anything against someone cause they're a premie. I might think you are challenged in some way, but most premies (and that's not each and every one) are victims in my book.

I do like to meditate, but I think the other issues are bigger.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 11, 2000 at 16:35:37 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Tor
Subject: To Tor
Message:
Tor,

I have been following the discussion on this thread with interest. I, too, was involved in the early days, since 1973, and in the ashram for five years. I left in 1997. I see that your comments are careful and respectful. Thank you. I am glad that you plan to respond to AJW again, and I would appreciate it if you would also address the issues brought up by JW on Monday, as I too believe that these issues are hardly ancient history.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 17:04:58 (GMT)
From: Shifting
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: premie vs expremie thing
Message:
Nicely said...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 17:54:07 (GMT)
From: Shifting
Email: None
To: anyone
Subject: browsers
Message:
Can anyone answer my question above? I would like to know and learn about this forum. I am new here. Thanks.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 02:14:56 (GMT)
From: Ms. K.
Email: None
To: Shifting
Subject: browsers
Message:
Hi Shifting -
I thought someone else might answer your question, but I guess not, so I'll give it a try. When you post here, your browser information (for example, the version of Netscape or Internet Explorer) that you are using, and your Internet Service Provider (for example, America Online, Earthlink, Freeserve.uk, or whatever) are available to the forum administrators. This information is CONFIDENTIAL - it is not available to anyone else who uses this forum - just to the administrators. Most web sites do trap for this information, and some sites can get a lot more information if you visit them (for example, chat rooms). Anyway, I hope this helps.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 02:37:01 (GMT)
From: SHIFTING
Email: None
To: Ms. K.
Subject: THANKS
Message:
Thanks Ms.K.

I don't know much about computers. For now, since I know that premies of my 'community' come here and read the forum, I want to avoid being identified. I am afraid of posting. I guess eventually I will feel comfortable like the rest.

Thanks again

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 03:17:14 (GMT)
From: Ms. K.
Email: None
To: SHIFTING
Subject: THANKS
Message:
Hi Shifting -
Glad the info helped. There is really no way anyone who reads or posts on the forum can identify you from your posts (unless of course you choose to reveal personal information in your posts!) I hope I made that clear.

BTW, I know it's kind of scary to post here in the beginning, especially if you don't know much about the internet. Glad you got up the courage to take the step!

Take care -
Ms. K.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 18:36:20 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: loving yourself
Message:
A practicing premie told me the other day that in a recent video m said that people should love themselves-that he knows a lot of people who do a lot of things, but most of them don't really love themselves and that we should try to do that...
A few things jumped out at me after hearing that..
1)do we really need m to tell us that? Isn't that message available in 1000's of ways already?-like JW said, Kathy Lee Gifford could tell you that, and although I'm not a fan of hers, she could do it with a hell of a lot more convincing and relatable style..
2)It's funny how the message changes-it used to be that no one in this world knew anything about love or happiness unless they completely surrendered their lives to the lotus feet(seems so bizarre to even say that now, but that was standard party line in those days)
Now he says we should just love ourselves.
(I wonder if he really means that, or is the unwritten message that we can still only do that (love ourselves) by devotion to him?)
3)Finally,it's so interesting that he says that-'most of the people I meet don't really love themselves'.Of course they don't!They are the people who you surround yourself with who generally don't care about themselves or the other people around them, because they are so busy trying to do something for you!
The guy surrounds himself with ass-kissers with no lives of their own and then wonders why they have no self love!
4)Most of the people I know do love themselves, or are trying to do so in a reasonable fashion-not one of them, even the old party liners who are still involved, would seriously want to serve him in the way he demands. And someone who doesn't have knowledge, if they really knew how he lives, and what he does, would be shocked and upset at the premie who tried to introduce them to knowledge.
I know grade school teachers who have helped put on public programs to try to 'propagate Knowledge'. They do this without the slightest understanding of m's hidden life. If his hidden life were public knowledge, would they or anyone want any part of it? In the case of a teacher, I could see their career being jeopardized by their involvement in the cult, yet m makes no mention of any of this and continues to encourage the flock to find more sheep...
As he once said a long time ago, man is cutting off the branch he is sitting on, and m does the same, except for the fact that he may think most of the faithful are now expendable, if his investments allow him to live sultan style with no more support.Remember, he recently said some pam told him he could retire, but that he didn't want to. I'm assuming he was taking his finances into account when he said that...

Sorry for rambling so long...be well everyone. love yourself.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 17:58:37 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Changed Semantics
Message:
In his attempt to make his cult more relatable, Maharaji has changed some of the words, but hasn't really changed his recipe for self-hatred and loving only of him.

For example, instead of saying knowledge is about 'knowing god' or 'knowing the life force within you' or 'the experience of truth,' he now says it's about 'knowledge of self' or something similar. This is more relatable in a 'new age' sort of mileu. Not that it's been too successful. I don't think M would ever say that one should love one's idiosyncracies, personality, body, etc. Oh, no. He means to love your true 'self' which boils down to loving HIM.

No, Maharaji really is still about a war with your own self. You can sit and meditate and follow your breath, or squeeze your eyeballs and look at the result of pinching your optic nerve, or drink nasal drip, but, see, that doesn't make you happy -- so you have to fight with your 'mind' which is basically YOU, your personality, your uniqueness, your self-esteem, because M needs 'the mind' to explain why knowledge doesn't work.

The other way he talks about it is the 'heat v. mind' trip. Same thing, basically.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 11, 2000 at 01:45:34 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Changed Semantics
Message:

Deputy Dog responded:
JW,

How can people who hate themselves love anyone else? You can't give it away if you don't have it. To love my true self boils down to loving him? We are different people M and I. I don't live in Malibu.

Which brings us to the second point, are you your mental conditioning, your personal history? I don't think so. People with amnesia are still alive.

Knowledge is about making peace with yourself. Each of us is a unique universe.

Dep

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 11, 2000 at 22:32:22 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Changed Semantics
Message:
People who hate themselves CAN'T love anyone else. That's the point. Because what Maharaji and his cult are about is NOT love. It's a weird, medieval relgion. It isn't love, he just calls it that. I learned that the hard way.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 03:14:25 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: loving yourself
Message:
la-ex,

I remember that video. And we should love ourselves! But who are we? Are we our identity, a bunch of social roles passing in the night? Are we what we do? M is obviously not asking people to become narcissistic or conceited.

I think what he's saying is that as our hearts become less entangled and we gain a deeper awareness of who we are, we become aware of the part of us that transcends culture, race, gender, nationality etc. call it what you will. When we break through the blocks and barriers that limit us and prevent us from experiencing our perfection, only then we can love our true Selves.

I don't it's fair to say that people who support M and who want to see more propagation are 'ass-kissers with no lives of their own.' Most premies I know who practise do love themselves and are at home with themselves.

The key is that you actually have to do the meditation for it to work.

Dep

Where the hell is Jim?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 12:49:35 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: loving yourself
Message:
Check out this nice essay by Erich Fromm:

Selfishness and Self-love

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jan 12, 2000 at 06:28:57 (GMT)
From: Bili
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Thanks yet again Mili-NT
Message:
sfghs
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 06:52:57 (GMT)
From: pup
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: loving yourself
Message:
DOing 4 techniques for an hour a day will not solve the
human improvement impulse folks have.
It is just like stalling in place.
Thinking while trying to see hear and taste something that is not
interesting or even there.
Hardly qualifies for your claim that it helps us reach our 'perfection'.
Comon Dog, you want to try saying it a different way?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 08:37:47 (GMT)
From: Des Perado
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Recent Exes Forum
Message:
Being one of the above I am a little paranoid. I saw a message about same when I came on tonight but now it seems to have disappeared. Can someone please explain?

p.s. Hello to Michael, I'm looking forward to your reply. Where is Stan T?, Satsang?

Love to Crazy Carol. I trust your levels are within the therapeutic range. I would be interested in your story.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 15:23:53 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Des Perado
Subject: Recent Exes Forum
Message:
Des, I would be happy to respond if I knew to what I am responding. Is there a post from you I missed?

Michael the Waiting for Clarification

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 03:30:12 (GMT)
From: Des Perado
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: THE LOST POST
Message:

Des Perado responded:
Michael,

You'll find it in the Inactive Index.

Look for a thread kicked off by Wadi Sue, 'What is wrong with you people.' You responded to comments I left regarding the use of false names in this forum and the wasting of space by persons who could be accused of still pretending to practice K.

Of course it could have been some other Michael. It's not an uncommon name.

Des.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 18:18:59 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Des Perado
Subject: Recent Exes Forum
Message:
Hi Des -
I and a couple of other people started the 'Recent Exes' forum as a place where people could post privately in a smaller group. It's sort of a formalized e-mail group - a subset of Forum V. I don't administer it anymore, but it's still going strong with new adminstrators.

Anyway, in case you're wondering, it's legitimate and run by ex-premies, plus the Forum Admins on this forum know about it and seem to approve :).

Don't know why the post appeared to disappear, but it's still there.

Take care,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 18:37:23 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Recent Exes Forum
Message:
Hi Katie
One of Hamzen's posts to me has disappeared also. No big deal we wre able to talk and don't need the post back. Just letting you know that it happened.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 19:43:37 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: I can see the posts
Message:
Hi Selene,
I can see your and Hamzen's posts (if those are the ones you mean, that is). Not sure what the problem is - it might be a browser problem, as Run said. Anyway, even if it is a browser problem, you and Run may want to e-mail Brian with full particulars so he can take it from there - I think he will want to know about these kind of occurrences.

Note: it's brian@tigerriver.com.

Take care -
Love,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 14:02:53 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Des Perado
Subject: Recent Exes Forum
Message:
Dear Des,
I am not sure what you are saying but the posted message about the recentexes forum is the thread right below this one! :)
If that isn't what you meant I don't know what to tell you but good luck. :)
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 18:59:21 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: browser problems
Message:
Just try hitting refresh when that happens. My IE seems to have trouble reading these forums sometimes and won't recognize some later posts when I'm moving backwards and forwards, or even just coming on to the site for the first time.

Someimes I hit refresh a couple times before everything shows up.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 19:47:10 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: browser problems
Message:
Hi Run -
Just repeating what I said to Selene above - please e-mail Brian (brian@tigerriver.com), about these things, even if you think it's a browser problem. Obviously he can't use all browsers to test the forum, so knowing these things might be important.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 04:34:49 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: freewheeling@bigfoot.com
To: Katie
Subject: browser problems
Message:
Katie:

I recall having a problem like this about a year ago. Somehow my internet folders had been corrupted. There were two hidden files involved, that had to be erased in dos, because windows wouldn't allow the modification. I think I got the advice from Mike Armstrong. Sorry I can't remember more, but Mike's advice corrected the problem.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 22:59:08 (GMT)
From: Roger Drek
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Agreeing with Run again - slow
Message:
Yes, I agree with Runamok. There certainly does seem to be a problem. I have a rather slow Pentium 90 with 64 meg, but I've got a very fast line to the internet. On this machine I'm running Win98 and the latest version of MSIE 4.nn. All too often it dies in mid-refresh.

I've run Ping and Traceroute to www.ex-premie.org and the numbers are almost always good.

It's possible that the HTML might have flaws in that it might be missing end tags or be out of balance. Perhaps, with the size of the Active Index getting large it is just too much HTML for a browser to parse on slower machines. You might try testing with a machine less than a 200 mhz Pentium. Even a 486 would be good to test with as the Least Common Denominator.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 00:12:40 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Roger Drek
Subject: agree- slow
Message:
Yeah, it does load very slowly at that. Rog, we've got to stop meeting like this.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 01:09:35 (GMT)
From: Hihomumio
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: agree- slow
Message:
Hi Run-you can probably thank your isp for that. Always slow as hell. I'm not having any trouble right this minute, but that's a temporary situation for sure. I can't wait until cable access is available in my area. Maybe I'm not having trouble because I haven't upgraded to the latest version-don't intend to either. Especially after I found out that even though I downloaded ie5.0 directly from Microsoft to avoid the problems Aol had with their version of ie5, they did some 'updating' to my system. I ran a diagnostic on my browser recently and it came back that they had altered it. Nice, huh?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 01:50:16 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Hihomumio
Subject: agree- slow
Message:
Hi Hihomumio!
Always good to see you here...

I have noticed that the forum server has been real slow today - in fact I couldn't even get the forum to load around noon-time. Something about weekends...

(BTW, I have only used your ISP a few times - at my mom's & elsewhere, and they are REAL slow. I know they have advantages that outweighs the slowness, and that it can be a regional thing, but even my mom is switching!)

Take care,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 02:17:53 (GMT)
From: Hihomumio
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: just curious
Message:
Hi Katie-

Nice to see you here too!

I was just wondering-it wouldn't have anything to do with the frames, would it? Please say it isn't so!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 02:21:34 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Hihomumio
Subject: just curious
Message:
Hi Hihomumio (or is that repetitive??)

Brian says it's not the frames! I noticed it before he got the frames on-line, and we suspect it will be happening all weekend. Nothing we can do except call them on Monday if it's still going on. (We think it has something to do with the 'OFF' switch on the lights in their office - just kidding!)

Take care -
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 13:42:05 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Curious about Frames?
Message:
Hi Katie, Hiho,

what frames? I can't see any frames, just the usual page. Did I miss something earlier have the frames been removed while I was asleep?

I'd just like to comment on these threads about how good or bad the new forum software is. Though I think it's important to hammer out software bugs etc. I think it's pretty boring stuff to read about here on the forum itself. Can't people who are genuinely confused about their technical experiences accessing the forum email their questions to Admin. There's a lot of variables that can cause delays accessing a website and it's nice to root out problems but the accusatory manner that complaints are being made is likely to result in a cat fight (by my reckoning).

I was also bored to tears with that long thread begining with Carol getting a parrot for Christmas and ending in a tit-tat bickering with powerman. Surely that sort of ramble would be better suited to Sir Dave's Anything Goes Forum

Charlie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 04:50:04 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Curious about Frames?
Message:
Charlie:

Re: I was also bored to tears with that long thread begining with Carol getting a parrot for Christmas and ending in a tit-tat bickering with powerman. Surely that sort of ramble would be better suited to Sir Dave's Anything Goes Forum.

I suppose people need to supplement the boredom of talking about Maharaji with some ot banter, but believe such threads ought to be labelled as off topic so that people like you can avoid them. What has M. been doing lately that's so blasted interesting? More dirt about Monica? Has he found a hole in his navel? Has he graduated from weasel to wolverine?

--Scott 'who's interest in M has all-but disappeared, and who thinks bicycles are for more exciting' T.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 15:19:17 (GMT)
From: Hihomumio
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Curious about Frames?
Message:
Charlie-see up above where I answered your question.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 03:48:09 (GMT)
From: RE Administrator
Email: recentexes@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: the 'Recent Exes' forum
Message:
The Recent Exes forum is a subset of Forum Four that was initially created as a forum for recent ex-premies. It has since been expanded to include ex-premies who are.still working out issues concerning their involvement with Maharaji, or any ex-premie who would like to post about these issues in a private environment. The Recent Exes forum is password-protected and flame-free. Access to the forum is available only by permission from the Recent Exes forum administrator (with approval by current forum members).

If you want more information about this forum, or if you would like to participate in this forum, please e-mail the forum administrator at recentexes@yahoo.com.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 06:41:07 (GMT)
From: Sir David
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: RE Administrator
Subject: On the other hand
Message:
You might like to go to the forum that's been banned by the online ex-premie community even though they all still use it. I'm talking of course about The ANYTHING GOES forum.

Formerly Hell and now (nearly) the Kingdom of Heaven with its scenic views of snow covered hills, this forum is an experience you'll never forget.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 03:46:42 (GMT)
From: Basil Rathbone
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: On the other hand
Message:
Sounds like a true service to me Sir David. Where did you learn such a thing you selfless thing?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 06:52:02 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: On the other hand
Message:
Now what is this? Sir Dave no one has banned or condemned you.
but... They took the link off . And I do think that sucks.
However they aren't responding to me.
But just for the record I thought I'd add my little politically incorrect note.
ADD AG. You all use it when you need it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 14:26:56 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: And does anybody realise
Message:
Does anybody realise how many links I have to change every time this ex-premie forum moves to another site? I've got links to this forum all over the web and by the time I've changed them all to the new URL, the forum's moved again and so off I go again.

A bit like painting the Forth Bridge in Scotland. By the time it's finished being painted, it's time to start again.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 23:00:40 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: But it's a a fulltime job (nt)
Message:
gfhjk
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 03:33:14 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Yeah, but he doesn't get paid!
Message:
Thanks, Sir D.

P.S. At the risk of being flippant, IMHO being 'banned' always seems to increase popularity :).

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 17:58:35 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: And does anybody realise
Message:
Unfortunately that is computing life. One of the reasons I had a marathon work week this week was because i knew if I did it earlier it would all change anyway.
I need a new career. Too bad the porno industry isn't more promising. And guys don't seem to like the stories as much as the pictures and movies. oops, this is not about M, or is it?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 03:19:31 (GMT)
From: Ya'qub
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: MAHARAJI
Message:
Maharaji really has a lot of deep things to say about the beauty of Existence, and it is so so simple!
Brother Ya'qub
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 16:21:03 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Ya'qub
Subject: Depth
Message:
Y: You said, 'Maharaji really has a lot of deep things to say about the beauty of Existence, and it is so so simple!
Brother Ya'qub'

So tell me, how 'deep' is it? 33 feet, 60 feet, 120 feet, oxygen toxicity depth?

Ok, I'll tell YOU: The 'depth' of his inanity doesn't even require the use of a snorkel! The depth of understanding and emotion plays better in a b-grade movie than it does in 'M's World.'

'It's' SOOOOOOO simple because it's the only way M thinks..... simplistic and inane! How about a really 'critical' look at what he says and why it's the exact same thing every single time despite YOUR supposed move into a.... ahem.... 'new phase?' Doesn't he have anything 'deeper' to say, now that you all have progressed so much toward enlightenment? Why not? Because it's bull and there is nothing else he can add to his miserably written story..... that's why not!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 07:48:41 (GMT)
From: OJ's Dog
Email: None
To: Ya'qub
Subject: MAHARAJI
Message:
'Tis a gift to be simple
'Tis a gift to be blind
'Tis a bane to be Ice 'Qub
Blathering all the time...

I'd say you get your rocks off taunting the people on the Forum, but you ain't got no rocks, and I cain't get no satisfaction.

I await your plaintive wail about being hurt and misunderstood, poor baby.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 06:01:45 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Ya'qub
Subject: And So Repetitive and Inane
Message:
You could get the same platitudes about how great life is from watching Kathy Lee on her Christmas special. Even this wouldn't be so bad, except he then says you need him to know what the purpose of existence is. And in this, he is just a liar and a fraud, pure and simple, and he has done this all the way to the bank.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 20:57:06 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: related sites
Message:
I seem to be talking to myself here. Guess it's better than
'abusing' myself.
I am going on a three day programming binge and very weird
Just hit the What's Related button by accident. It's amazing how many links showed up.
Maybe I'd better go into hiding.
There is so much info out there about M and other cults. I'm amazed.
The last time I did a search was ages ago, when I found this
site. The information has really taken off. Good to see it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 21:05:39 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: related sites
Message:
Hi Selene,

And doesn't it alter your ways of viewing all this spiritual bollox, got nothing against feelings, just 'spiritual' descriptions

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 21:11:51 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: related sites
Message:
hamzen! wow. I was wondering about you.
Now, don't get mad but I think I need a translater.
can't quite get what you are saying here.
I'm not being sarcastic. Just tired and strange. I think you
know what that's like(?) :)
Still listen to your mixes you sent me. Love em.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 11:56:16 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: related sites
Message:

ham responded:
Tired & strange, yeah just a touch, & boringly uncreative it is too

Re previous post- was just trying to say that the pos & neg around gm/knowledge are duplicated through all the groups, absolutely nothing unique, only us with our neurotic needs/spiritual arrogance, with just a little help from gm, could have thought otherwise. Weren't we just ripe for it. Still at least there has been progress, this generation is almost leader/guru proof.

Selene whats the bass like on your sound system?

Said all this much better last night, but the post has disappeared, odd, either that, or my self prescribed drugs are a lot more hallucinatory than I thought....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 17:56:16 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: related sites
Message:
It did disappear. That is odd. We must be on the same drugs.
(I wish)
Our home system is good, Nick is a musician and uses stuff for recording so I know that it's good but don't really know the technical details.
I love listening to that stuff in my car though, it calms me down.
The car system is factory, Toyata brand new so it's average I guess.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 20:00:17 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Geeks
Subject: Roger? someone?
Message:
If you aren't mad at me again:
I'm wondering how to turn off counters(specifically on Sir Daves
page.)
It takes forever to load on my mac and nt machines.
Proxomitron must be able to do it but I admit defeat and don't
wanna FTFM - too dazed. And Cerby didn't answer me, guess he really
fell for you huh? :)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 20:06:20 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: oops
Subject: I meant RTFM
Message:
I really don't get kinky with computer manuals. Really.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 20:13:18 (GMT)
From: me again
Email: None
To: nevermind
Subject: I got it figured out
Message:
Gave up on you 2 boys. I think you are off to some hot springs
or something.
enjoy.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 17:27:49 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Just had to post this....
Message:
Hi!!!It is a wonderful day to be alive! We have a new pet.....my son got it with Christmas $ at my suggestion! A cockatiel named Pearla! She is so sweet and tame!

Here's a message form my heart I know for myself is true!:

Until we get to the point where we've had enough of the thing that hurt and long more than anything for a peaceful love, we are bound to take painful roads. We are destined to play out our frivolous disasters until we declare ourselves finished and done with them. How much pain do we have to suffer before we are sure we want no more? As much, it seems, as we have to until we don't.

Marianne Williamson, A Woman's Worth

I don't hurt anymore. Love carol

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 18:07:45 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: Just had to post this....
Message:
God, Carol, that's so beautiful. It's like maharaji without the maharaji. We humans are so darn full of foibles.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 18:35:52 (GMT)
From: Lucy
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Just had to post this....
Message:
Desi Arnez,
Why don't you pick on someone your own size and leave Carol alone. You trying to push her to the point where she won't post? OK, so your callous to life, good for you, Carol just balances out your callousness. At least she is happy. I don't agree with everything she believes, certainly not her view of M but the way your are following her around jabbing at her is a familiar tactic and only antaognistic. God she is giving you the benifit of the doubt through it all, maybe you are an ex who is 'teasing' her. No Carol he is an ex who is trying to make you feel bad and tell you that your positive attitude gets under his skin.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 19:34:14 (GMT)
From: michael
Email: None
To: Lucy
Subject: Just had to post this....
Message:
Even though Carol and I are close personal friends, I won't presume to speak for her. However, somehow, I do not think that Carol is too worried about accidentally pushing someone else's buttons. After all, she is quite busy with hospice work , husband, children, llamas, chickens, cats, and now a bird! She is fully engaged in living! How do you find time to post, Carol?

Powerman, 'maharaji without maharaji', hmmmmm. Is that something like truth without the trip, beauty without the bs? Peace.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 19:44:55 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: michael
Subject: Just had to post this....
Message:
Yes, exactly brother. It's like life is such a precious gift but when left to our devices we just hold onto the pain. Only when we're really longing for that peace do we let go of the pain. Not.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 08:14:22 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: rbruce@teleport.com
To: Powerman
Subject: No, left to our own devices:
Message:
We can heal from the pain. I had to have an intention to heal myself and walk toward it. I stumbled many times. There were times I thought I'd healed and then resentment or fear would pop up again and I'd know I wasn't finished. The pain I speak of is mostly my healing from sexual abuse. But it doesn't matter the source of pain: a divorce, a betrayal of any kind, an abusive parent. The healing has to be self motivated and no one else has the power to make it happen.

Until I became a positive advocate for myself and made myself try to forgive and understand my perpetrator, I did not heal. Once I actually was able to feel forgiveness, the pain and the reliving of my abuse was over quickly. I happened to reach that state of mind of feeling healed during the time I was also leaving my illusions about M behind. The language and verbal attacks on anything 'spiritually' and or emotionally positive at the time back in spring/summer '98, when I visited often,were just signs to me of the anger and pain felt by some ex's that needed to heal themselves. And sometimes I felt a little bit bad or sad from them and a little angry at people who expressed themselves with such apparent meaness and lack of caring.

I got into the discussion and arguments saying that forgiveness is important to achieve healing, because I have had strong personal experience of it. I just want to help people, but if you or anyone else don't believe that, it's no skin off my back. It's OK.

Should I tell again the story of what happened to me back in 1972? I won't here. It was right after receiving K and one of the reasons it took so long to get over it had partly to do with new beliefs I had acquired and perpetuated in the short time before that from satsang and premies! I achieved a tempory healing by believing that I was not my body, so nothing could really touch me. For awhile, I got over my confusion about why it had happened when I had been told that 'my karma had been taken away by receiving Knowledge.' An explanation that 'Karma is not linear.' seemed to help for some reason. I think I thought it meant it was like I was eating his karma or something like that!(That statement doesn't make much sense to me now!) I was not really over the pain, I had merely repressed it.

It surfaced later big time about in 1987 and was a source of recurring grief for several years! I was in therapy alot of that time. I got so tired of rehearsing my tragedy! It would come up again and again until I got to the final step of really forgiving with all my heart an mind. I did it at first because others who had been abused had said that it was what worked! They were right! It took changing my thinking. It was about a 6 year process for me from the time I set an intention to just try forgiveness in order to heal myself. But since about '97, I have sustained the freedom from that pain and anger and have even made a few friendly connections with my perpetrator, who I had loved deeply in childhood, my big brother! If you want my story, e-mail me.

I just felt and still feel that if I could heal, anyone could heal from anything! Do you want to feel anger and hurt and self-righteousness forever? Or do you want to go on with your life on a positive dirction!

Also, I'm sorry if I have offended anyone by being too positive. It's just ben amazing lately! Iknow it can make you madder or more depressed when you are feeling bad yourself. Sometimes don't you want you want to gag when a smiley face person robotically repeats, 'Have a nice day!' or 'Jai Satchitand'!

But I hope you can still get a litle uplifted when someone else's happiness is genuine! Laughter and smiles are known to be contagious! And I didn't get mine by following agya or practicing Knowledge! (I don't think, anyway, but who knows, maybe I'm finally doing something right!). I've been more happy since I completely gave up the 'should' syndrome I had about meditation. I meditate in my own way, when and how I choose, without guilt or comparison about whether or not I'm 'experiencing Knowledge'!!!!!I get more happiness in my life because I work on changing my thinking,until it comes natural to be positive and because I choose to hang out and talk and work with other people who who were or are making changes in their thinking, too, and looking for ways that they could use their talents and the things that give them joy in a way that also helps others (or at least does no intentional harm.)

*We need to be in our minds!*

We need to dig up what's there and evaluate why it is there and then change what we don't like!Personally, I LIKE being happy and finding the best in even the worst of what happens in my life! To each his own. I am honest sincere and a real person who generally loves most people and animals.

I still have hope and idealism, tempered by realism about the future. It will be what we make it.Both of our own and the planet's. I'd like to see people unite or at least have acceptance of the right of each person to have their own beliefs, so long as they do no harm to others, the planet or it's creatures. I'd like to see the end of suffering caused by wars, disease and lack of adequate access to resources. Wouln't you? I'd like to believe that every person can have loving support in their life. Is there someone you know who is lonely that you could spend a little time with? Everyone of us is important in making these changes. What do you want to do? What are you good at?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 04:01:40 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: No, left to our own devices:
Message:
Hi Carol,
Its good to read that you were able to recover from that. I know others that are in the process
and it is hard for them. One also is dealing with
a big brother issue.
I found a pen around the house that said 'attitude
is everything' and adjusting attitude IS a
helpful tool in the process. Although it is
not everything.

You know, it might ruin the human fun is we all
'at least have acceptance of the right of
others to have thier own beliefs'. I mean, since
people love to have disputes with each other,
or so it seems, and we will fight over anything
or be contencious, you know what i mean right?
We seem to be made to be at odds.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 21:43:14 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: You're right!
Message:
It is the miracle of life expressing itself through us! My best to you...Bye for awhile! Carol
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 17:36:08 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: No, left to our own devices:
Message:
I know you get pumped up and feel quite good about yourself, Carol. And I know you think if you don't get a good reception it's because of someone else's pain or aberrations. But that's all part of the same new-age arrogance, oversimplification and jumping to conclusions.

What I hear when I read your stuff is doubt, not confidence.

I think the assumptions you make start with yourself. You can't just 'be' because that isn't good enough. You need to be more than yourself so you do all this fancy shit and now you think you're glorious. Okay, great, but not everyone is under the same delusion and not everyone is going to be impressed.

Naturally with all the pressure you're putting on yourself to be 'positive' and 'uplifted' it's a drag to hear anything that might poke a hole in your balloon. But you might consider just being realistic, which doesn't put pressure on you to be positive or negative. It's just whatever it is.

I always hated when maharaji exploited the innocence of kids by using them as examples of how we should be. Being a kid isn't all it's cracked up to be but one thing they have that's admirable is realness. If they're happy, it's cool, it's what's happening. No more, no less. It's what it is. There's no fancy frame around the picture. If there was a fancy frame around the picture it would ruin it.

And that's what I'm responding to, Carol. You have a big fancy frame around your picture and I'm going 'puke, puke'. Maybe it's because I'm so fucked up, or maybe I'm not very fucked up at all, and I just see the fancy frame and it's just a natural reaction to getting poo-poo on my shoe. Maybe I'm not supposed to like poo-poo on my shoe. Is that okay if I don't like poo-poo on my shoe? Do I have to be fucking happy with poo-poo on my shoe? Am I dysfunctional because I don't like poo-poo on my shoe? Jesus, give me a break.

I know you've had severe trauma and I know how terrible it is. But I don't think you do yourself any service by trying to make it better than it is. Yes, things can get better, even a lot better. Paying attention to what happened that was painful and gaining as much understanding as possible really helps; no question about it. And being able to forgive is a pretty simple thing, really, and reduces alot of conflict. But turning something that's natural into a panacea and presenting a mask that's prettier than the original person is unnatural and I don't think it becomes you. Of course, some other people will like it but I think they're just doing the same number as you. So take it for what it's worth.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 22:35:40 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: No, left to our own devices:
Message:
Believe it or not, I am as free of masks as I've ever been and feeling very realistic! In many ways it is less effort too live my life the way I do than ever before. My only reason to tell you these things is to offer them up for your consideration that life experiences can be looked at from other angles. What you or I have called 'bad' is not only bad, but holds a seed for growing our humanity,understanding,and especially compassion both for ourselves and for others who have suffered (which includes just about everybody to greater or lessor degree).

I want to encourage people to heal and to find their joy. It doesn't mean that I want anyone to be like me or that I am somehow greater than you because of the particular way we each live our lives. It is just that I have experienced some of the same things you have and I can say that there is light at the end of the tunnel if you choose to move toward it...to contine the train travel analogy I posted today first on a new thread.

It happens to give me joy to volunteer with dying people and their families because I give myself permission love them unconditionally, to fully do my job with them to increase their comfort and love them as if they were my closest family member. I have been challenged to go beyond my known experience in caretaking as I have been asked if I was willing to to do things most people would not be willing to do and would cringe (or puke) from thinking about!

I find your talk of puking at my self-glorification, and stepping in shit actually comical! You cannot offend me no matter what you say, but I look at your comments for the good they can do for my own understanding and for the best way I can respond to you that might get through.

You'd probably REALLY puke if you were catching vomit or cleaning up someones fecal matter from their bottom which had a huge cancerous tumor near the anus, as I have done with my second hospice patient two years ago about now. I did it as compassionately as I could, trying to aloow the person the greatest dignity which the cicumstances permitted. I wanted to be a nurse at one point, back about 1982 when I started college, but my (premie)husband discouraged me because he worked in a hospital and thought he knew what I'd like and wouldn't like. He was probaly right at that time because I did not know then, what I was capable of doing; and I became a teacher instead and worked for awhile after I graduated.

I did not think I would be able to do the things like I have now done without puking! I didn't even gag on it! Isn't it amazing what love can do!?! A few years ago I figured that I SHOULD do this kind of service to people because I was able and willing to do it, and not many others are. I didn't know I would be asked to do nursing sorts of things, but now I know I can.

And the funny thing is...I am rewarded more from it than the people I serve who are grateful for a 4 hours per week respite from caregiving (which is all I commit to and all I am allowed to do by the hospice organization.) Some people who do it who also have jobs, but I am lucky to not have to work for money at this time.

I and am grateful for knowing the patients (if they are conscious)and their families for even the short time I may be with them until the patient dies. When they are unconscious, I hold hands or talk to them sometimes and clean their eyelids if they have matter stuck on them that may have collected from being closed for days, just in case they become able to open them before they die.

I don't glorify myself, I encourage you to find your service and joy so that you can feel the glory in you. It is not going to be the same as mine because we are different and have different strengths and interests.

After today, I will not return until about April 1st. Just because it takes a lot of time, not because anyone hurt my feelings or offended me, because that didn't happen. Take good care of yourself and try to take notice of all your reactions to people or words. I hope......
Carol

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 13:40:34 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: No, left to our own devices:
Message:
Dear Carol,
Sorry for the drug out nonsense with myself and Powerman. I had been holding back from telling him how I felt about his following you around spraying his hose of cynical sarcasm. I also know him, we use to be friends and that was the first contact we've had in a long time so it wasn't good. Sorry.
Here I started standing up for your positive attitude and got sucked into something far less myself.
Your post here, really struck a cord with me. I remember when Gerry had the list server we talked about fogiveness. It took me 39 yrs to forgive my mother and it worked so well for me because when I finally confronted her she admitted the abuse, she always said it didn't happen, and even apologized. It has been so much better with her and in my life in general since but I still can't figure out how to forgive someone without thier acknowledgement. I think this is more often the case that people run into when trying to forgive someone who has hurt and damaged them but is dead or in denial about what they have done. Any ideas on that dear?
I am so glad for you that you have faced things head on and come out of the experience freed and happy. It brings tears to my eyes.
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 22:45:18 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: No, left to our own devices:
Message:
No need to apologize! I'm glad to know you (on the net) you have been very kind and helpful to me and others in the past. Keep in touch by e-mail. When is your birthday again? Carol
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 19:53:43 (GMT)
From: michael
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Just had to post this....
Message:
What do you want, Powerman? What do you believe in?

The scientist, Carl Sagan, who was an agnostic said 'conciousness is the universe's way of looking at itself'.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 20:18:05 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: michael
Subject: Just had to post this....
Message:
I want the simple things, michael; pleasure, warmth, friends, kindness. What I liked best about Carl Sagan was the way he said, 'Billions and billions...'.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 19:09:45 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Lucy
Subject: Just had to post this....
Message:
Are you implying that Carol isn't 'my own size'? That I should treat her with kid gloves because she's somehow smaller than me or unable to care for herself? Perhaps your own disrespect of her is more insulting than mine.

You're wrong that I'm trying to push her to not post. I'm not trying to do that, and besides I don't see how that's possible. Perhaps you're underestimating Carol again.

And how do you conclude that I'm callous to life? Because I'm poking fun at nonsense? I'm not trying to make Carol feel bad. Only Carol can make herself feel bad. Or aren't you listening, Lucy?

It sounds like you're trying to censor me, darling. Consider it a failure.

By the way, are you Cynthia? Oh baby.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 19:32:03 (GMT)
From: Lucy
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Just had to post this....
Message:
No, not Cynthia. The size thing is just an expression. I feel like you have gone for the soft underbelly of someone because they have a more loving view of life then you do. I mean state your feelings, fine but why chase her around? I have just read your posts to her and finally just had to say how I felt.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 19:42:05 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Lucy
Subject: Just had to post this....
Message:
Well then you know exactly how I feel, too. I am not chasing anyone around. Maybe it says something about your perceptions that you think I'm going for someone's 'soft underbelly'; that somehow if you're loving you can't take a little ribbing, or that if the love comes under scrutiny it won't survive.

And I am stating my feelings, in my own way. If that's fucking okay with Miss Highness. And now look who's following who around.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 19:52:43 (GMT)
From: Lucy
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Just had to post this....
Message:
This is the same thread, I am not following you around. Move on and guess what, I won't bother with you anymore.
I think Carol did quite well with your postings but it is becoming this draged out thing. She knows how you feel and all of us that have read your posts to her know. I just suggested you stop following her around to say the same thing over and over.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 20:23:20 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Lucy
Subject: I think I like
Message:
you bothering me.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 20:33:28 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: I think I like
Message:

Robyn responded:
oh yeah, why is that?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 20:40:34 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: I think I like
Message:
Why is what?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 21:05:28 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: I think I like
Message:

Robyn responded:
Doesn't seem to hard, eh?
you write, you think you like me bothering you. I'd have to disagree. I ask why and you say why what! I thought you were quicker then that.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 21:10:40 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: I think I like
Message:
I don't know, sounds a bit 'stalky' to me.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 21:24:54 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: I think I like
Message:
whatever, you've lost me, stalky sounds a bit like a vegetable to me!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 21:29:35 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Liar (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 21:49:33 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Liar (nt)
Message:
Yeah, I'm over here lying about the word stalky. I lie, lie, lie my way through my life, your right. I have tried to lie to myself about the way everyone here knows what I liar I am but you've pushed me to see the reality. Is there a liar's 12 step program? I NEED IT!
I know you don't like me, fine.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:05:55 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Liar (nt)
Message:

everybody lies. Denying it is like pretending there is only one
guy in Malibu who can give you what you need to live.
It's OK. Calm down, let it go if you can. I'm amazed really how easy it is to get over these attacks on forum.
And look at 'Roger and Me' (not the movie)
But we should make a sequel :)
Anything is possible.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:16:26 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Liar (nt)
Message:
Dear Selene,
I didn't say I never lie but what is he saying to me, I am lying about stalking him. That is laughable. You can ask any person I have ever met in my whole life if I am a possible stalker and they would laugh in your face. It is absurd. Or is he saying something more, that my life is a lie or god knows what. I certainly have learned how to let things go and this to shall pass.
Thanks for your caring. God my typing is getting fast, no lie! :)
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:36:56 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Liar
Message:
I'm saying you were lying when you pretended you didn't know what 'stalky' referred to. You just revealed you did understand what it meant whether you agreed you were doing it or not. It's called playing dumb.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:46:05 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Liar
Message:
It is ignoring the obvious and the word stalky DID put an image of sugar cane or corn into my head so it wasn't a lie!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 08:55:28 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: This is getting funny..
Message:
Hi Robyn and Selene and michael! I'm doing great..don't worry! He's not so bad anyway. I actually didn't get the sarcasm. I thought he was sort of complimenting me. O course I haven't read the new responses to my earlier post....So maybe he is bad. I forgive him anyway. He doesn't know me like you do and everybody has an angry and sarcastic streak at times, part of the journey to wholeness and love is to know the loss of or longing for it.

My dear Powerman,
Oh well! So you don't think I was speaking the truth (satsang), ....it doesn't change that it is true for me. You're right about real *love* being unaffected by a little challenge.

Ahh! The miracle of life expressing itself! I am so glad we are not all the same! I am not being sarcastic now, but it is fun sometimes when it isn't used to cause more pain. It can be good to be irreverant and outrageous. Sarcasm, however, is usually a bit spiteful and often arises from a wounded heart!

You did compliment me, Powerman, when you recognized, I was up to the discussion. And I share the same things you want out of life. I also want them for everyone else! I also like to be inspired and be in good company. We are 'Strangers in Good Company':the name of another favorite movie of mine I wish everyone would see!

But I've been here from 11pm to 12:29am now, and I have to go soon!!!

Oh, I have another movie recommendation, besides The Green Mile! See 'Dead Man' with Johny Depp and Gary Farmer (from PowWow Highway:another great movie)! It is slow and trippy and funny and philosophical! Many other famous actors are in small parts and it's fun looking for them! Robert Mitchum, Gabriel Byrne, Lance Henrikson, this guy who was in The Crow and Man in the Iron Mask,John Hurt. I love it and rented it for the second time today to show my 21 year old son! It has scenes not for children.

Goodnight all!It's now 12:50. I'm so slow typing! Carol

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:21:36 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Liar (nt)
Message:
And I didn't mean to imply you said 'you never lied'
Just trying to be supportive. It's my new image :)

Should I stalk him do you think? Or maybe Roger?
Cerby?
Are they all the same guy?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:39:20 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Liar (nt)
Message:
Oh stalk me baby. Write to me in aliases, follow me up and down the threads. Oh do it to me, Babs.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 23:57:22 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: and ps stalking
Message:
I think I did do that, in the threads with you and Carol.
It wasn't cool. Sorry.
I'll try harder. Just wanted to communicate but didn't know it.
ick. Sometimes I think I'd be better off hanging out where there
are no computers.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 00:00:41 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: and ps stalking
Message:
Er... all is forgiven.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 00:06:40 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: and ps stalking
Message:
Thank you. Really.
I'll try to be good. Not easy for me. but.. I am getting there.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 03:35:57 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: powerman
Subject: and ps before I get outta here
Message:
I wan't Lucy. Since she was my cats name I was thinking you would think that.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 03:40:02 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: and ps before I get outta here
Message:
I was Lucy, I thought that became clear and if Pman had a thought he would have picked up on that concidering that I addressed that first post to Desi Arnez.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 04:03:55 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: and ps before I get outta here
Message:
Hey, I've had TWO cats named Lucy (I like that name.) And, Robyn, I could tell it was you from the very first post - sorry, girl! Seems like you and I are fated to be non-anonymous.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 04:19:19 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: and ps before I get outta here
Message:
Dear Katie,
'Seems like you and I are fated to be non-anonymous. '
I have accepted that fact but there was an additional clue to pman if he'd thought for just a moment. I guess my spelling would give me away no matter what! :)
You know I still use Tigress on a rare occassion, she is a different part of me, a persona as you've mentioned, that I can step into if I am in a goddess kind of mood. :)
Back off I'm a Goddess... :) Is that it?
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 04:25:55 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: and ps before I get outta here
Message:
It was DEFINITELY your spelling that clued me in - plus your manner of expression!

BTW it's:
1. Back off, I'm a goddess!
2. Girl Power!
3. Pray for the dead and fight like hell for the living.
4. She who laughs, lasts.

You got two out of four, but I can't remember which! The last one is good for all the women here - wish I'd bought a gross.

Love,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 05:18:32 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: and ps before I get outta here
Message:
Dear Katie,
I got the first 2! I spoke to Jess just a bit ago and forgot to tell her! :( She will want them bad! She saw the movie Hurricane with Denzel Washington and loved it and she is stingy with her praise of things in the arts so it must be excellent. She was a theater/dance major you know. (Acutally waiting to hear about being accepted to grad school for the same now) She said they ate to much popcorn at the movies though and she couldn't stay on the phone cause she was sick because of it! :) My friend Dave that you met here called her and left a message and that was why she called even though she thought she was going to puke! Kids! :)
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:48:28 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Liar (nt)
Message:
No thanks.
But thanks for the offer.
you never know..... after all, we like each other, uh ... don't
we?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 23:24:42 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Liar (nt)
Message:
You never know.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 23:27:43 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Liar (nt)
Message:

Selene responded:
so truce?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 23:44:19 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Liar (nt)
Message:
Truce when I get that audio tape.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 23:46:22 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: sure you got it
Message:
Oh you mean the CD from my hubbie?
Or....
our recorded phone calls?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 23:50:36 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: sure you got it
Message:
The CD.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 23:53:46 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: sure you got it
Message:
Definitely. It meant a lot to me that you appreciated his music.
It made me appreciate it. you know how it is when you are too close
to something to really know the value?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 23:58:45 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: sure you got it
Message:
No question it's a gem.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:37:13 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Liar (nt)
Message:

Robyn responded:
Dear Selene,
And I like it! :)
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 20:39:32 (GMT)
From: Robyn's guardian angel
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: I think I like
Message:
I don't think you really want that answer.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 21:02:43 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Robyn's guardian angel
Subject: I think I like
Message:
Thanks angel,
Think he is going to go for my throat? :)
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 21:13:30 (GMT)
From: angel
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: I think I like
Message:
Had a different part of the anatomy in mind when I posted that.
but now that I think about it, naw....
throat makes sense.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 19:56:11 (GMT)
From: michael
Email: None
To: Lucy
Subject: Just had to post this....
Message:
Maybe it's not Carol he's following around. But his pain at the betrayal of the hamster?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:04:11 (GMT)
From: Des Perado
Email: None
To: michael
Subject: Just had to post this....
Message:
Or maybe Powerman is the Hamster. Sounds like a name M could choose for himself.

In any event, the thread is frayed and, methinks, pointless.

Have a nice day Carol.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:25:35 (GMT)
From: Mufti
Email: None
To: Des Perado
Subject: Just had to post this....
Message:
The poerman is the munster? No, Im nut!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:13:51 (GMT)
From: Inna Cognito
Email: None
To: Des Perado
Subject: Sounds right (nt)
Message:

Inna Cognito responded:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 20:26:24 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: michael
Subject: Just had to post this....
Message:
Yeah, I'm following my pain around until I long for peace so much that I let go of my pain.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 21:55:44 (GMT)
From: michael
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Just had to post this....
Message:
Why? You don't seem that dumb.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:12:21 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: michael
Subject: Just had to post this....
Message:
Pay attention, michael. In Carol, your good friend's earlier discourse, she quoted some weirdo who said 'Until we get to the point where we've had enough of the thing that hurt and long more than anything for a peaceful love, we are bound to take painful roads'. She didn't say I was dumb, just that I, we, are bound to take 'painful roads'. It's just something we do as people. Birds with pea-sized brains and apes who can't speak don't do it, but we do it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:35:53 (GMT)
From: michael
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Just had to post this....
Message:
No, Powerman, I don't really think you are dumb. It was merely meant as a gentle jab at your seemingly strong and somewhat sarcastic reaction. Peace.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 14:33:20 (GMT)
From: Christopher
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Help wanted!!!
Message:




CC22DEC9



Just to keep everyone updated, here's the latest letter I received from the UK Charity Commission, followed by my reply:




Charity Commission

Investigations Department

Harmsworth House

13-15 Bouverie Street

London EC4Y 8DP



22 December 1999


Dear Mr Giles


Elan Vital


Although the spiritual leader of the charity may or may not be wealthy there is no available evidence that any of the funds of the UK charity finds its way to him personally. The charity is required to provide accounts and these accounts have, because of its level of income, to be independently audited. Part of the audit will be to ensure that donations sent abroad are made for proper charitable purposes. The tracing of funds going to the various arms of Elan Vital would be a very costly and resource intensive exercise and one that I currently have no grounds to authorise.


As to the status of the charity, this was obviously looked at when the charity first registered and legal advice then was that the objects of Elan Vital were charitable in law. As you may know however the Commission is currently engaged on a review of the register and this review could focus on charities of this type. It is however not an exercise that can be expected to come to any conclusion in the near future.


In summary I have to advise you that in this instance I do not propose to take your allegations any further. Your concerns have been noted, I would like to thank you for bringing them to our attention.


Yours sincerely




David Rich









To which I gave the following reply:






29th December 1999


Dear Mr Rich,


Re: ELAN VITAL


Thank you for your letter of 22nd December, and for having noted my ongoing concerns regarding the above charity.


You say that you have no available evidence that any of the funds of the UK charity contribute to Mr Rawat's personal wealth, and that to instigate a trace of such funds would be very costly and resource intensive.


I fully understand that such an action would require a great deal of effort on the Commission's part, but I wish to make it clear that I do not intend to let the matter drop simply because of that. I shall be using the ex-premie.org website to appeal for witnesses to come forward with their own evidence of how Mr Rawat has profited personally from his abuse of charity status, and would be happy to share such information with you (as and when it is available), should you so wish.


You mention that a review of the register is currently under way, which 'could' focus on charities of Elan Vital's 'type'.


Further to that possibility, I would like to make it clear that, at least from my own point of view, the 'educational purposes' Elan Vital claim as a basis for deserving charity status are actually not in question. The techniques of meditation that Mr Rawat teaches have a long history (going back far beyond the 'Sant Mat' tradition that his father, Shri Hans Ji Maharaj inherited - back as far even as Zen teachings from the previous millennium),


What IS in question is whether or not Mr Rawat has an ulterior motive in propagating these ancient teachings: viz. to ensnare potential sources for that private wealth that he continues to accumulate. His followers might claim that Mr Rawat has his own 'private sources' for the multitude of luxuries that he enjoys. If so, then what need has he of Charity status?


Apparently there are meetings where Elan Vital ask for day-to-day 'run of the mill' donations and claim that it only uses that money for 'educational' purposes, to set up programs to which they then 'invite' Mr Rawat to attend.


They then cover his 'expenses' for those programs.


These 'expenses' somehow include luxuries which even Croesus would envy.


The fact that the Charity Commission (whether wittingly or no) is complicit in a scam of such outlandish proportions reflects rather badly on the Charity Commission as well as Mr Rawat. If he is continuing to profit as a result of your assistance, (in still allowing him charity status), this surely contravenes your own guidelines. To quote:





'... a charity should be ready to explain and justify the policies and practices it has chosen to adopt. Charities are favoured by the state and the public because their aims are for the benefit of the public. In return, charities are subject to the special regulatory system of charity law, which includes measure to ensure that charities are accountable for, and report publicly on, the use of their resources and the consequences of their activities. Charities must comply with legislation (in so far as it applies to charities) which protects the human rights of the individual, including those which prohibit discrimination.'





Should Mr Rawat still be 'favoured by the state'? Are his motives purely and simply for the 'benefit of the public'? Do they 'protect the human rights of the individual, including those which prohibit discrimination'? Far from it. In fact the evidence of the abuse of rights that he has perpetrated through his various organisations can clearly be witnesses on the ex-premie.org website.


I do hope you can reconsider your proposal (as stated in your most recent letter) not to take my allegations further, and that you can recognise this as a matter worthy of your further investigation.


Yours sincerely





Christopher Quartus Giles








So - any volunteers out there with some juicy bits of evidence?



If so, I guess there's three options:



1. Post it here on the Forum

2. Feel free to email me, or

3. Contact the Commission yourself.






Good luck!



Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 22:56:43 (GMT)
From: Yes, you do...
Email: None
To: Christopher
Subject: need help
Message:
Let's see. There have been hundreds of thousands of people throughout the world who have received Knowledge. Out of that group, there is a very small percentage of appearently fringe participants who are vocal today in what can only be viewed by an onlooker as a hate site, which is bent on toppling the efforts of a man who has worked at bringing a message of hope for over 30 years. And who has been been scrutinized under a microscope by western government regulating agencies for over 25 years, and come out of that to-date with no personal smudges against him whatsoever. And you proudly point one of these agencies to this chaotic piece of hate drivel amassed on ex-premie.org as some kind of 'proof' that improprieties have been committed.

You are a naive man with unrealistic dreams of glory in your head Christopher Quartus Giles (God how pretentious can you be?). Why don't you get real. You know, there are cases where the internet actually provides 'real' information to the masses but in general it has no credibility because there is so much crap like ex-premie.org out there. And by the way, you sitting in the comfort of your bedroom hurling missiles through cyber-space doesn't take any courage whatsoever, and puts you in the same category of super-hero as Don Quixote. You should find something useful to do with your life Chris.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 19:57:03 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Yes, you do...
Subject: Utter BS let me count the ways
Message:

Let's see. There have been hundreds of thousands of people throughout the world who
have received Knowledge. Out of that group, there is a very small percentage of
appearently fringe participants who are vocal today in what can only be viewed by an
onlooker as a hate site

Do you live on the same planet as the rest of us? No, you don't. You live in an insulated world in which you surround yourself only with the opinions of other cult members like yourself. This is why you do not see how ridiculous you sound. The vast majority of people who got 'Knowledge' left quickly. Most people who were invloved in any way have left. To most people it is probably just a pain in the ass or something they would rather forget. I think if one were to poll ex premies one would find few have a continuing beleif that the guru is anything but a con man. The ex's who post here represent a wide spectrum of premie types, some fringe, some ex initiators and community cooridnators and an ex tutor of the guru's children. Fringe participants? Only because they LEFT the guru. Hate site? From your perspective maybe. But ask the general public? They would say it is a site made up of people who were stupid enough to get conned by a con man licking their wounds. Some would be more charitable and say we were simply ex cult members with a legitimate gripe. In any case you are totally out of touch if you think that rawat is a generally respected person in the world at large.

which is bent on toppling the efforts of a man who has worked
at bringing a message of hope for over 30 years. And who has been been scrutinized
under a microscope by western government regulating agencies for over 25 years, and
come out of that to-date with no personal smudges against him whatsoever.

Are you insane? People laugh at the guru! He is a walking talking joke. Smudges? I guess those smudges are so HUGE you cannot see them. Do a little survey of newspaper articles and comments by non premies about the guru? Do people respect him? God no, they laugh at him and the people who are stupid enough to follow him.

The agencies will catch up with him someday. Frankly, you sound like you are protecting a Mafia don, 'he can't be touched, he is a legitimate businessman'. As long as the guru has people who will lie to protect their god and take the fall for him you bet it will be hard to scrutinize him.

Regarding this site...the internet has many frailties. But, there are many people on this site who are finally able to speak the truth about a difficult and strange part of their lives. I am sure it is difficult for you to hear. But you, and almost any premie, knows it is the truth, I am sure you have to tell Mr. Mind to shut up each and every time you read the site.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 20:35:28 (GMT)
From: Yes
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Not BS, just a realistic view
Message:
Carol said:
>The vast majority of people who got 'Knowledge' left quickly. Most people who were invloved in any way have left. To most people it is probably just a pain in the ass or something they would rather forget. I think if one were to poll ex premies one would find few have a continuing beleif that the guru is anything but a con man. The ex's who post here represent a wide spectrum of premie types, some fringe, some ex initiators and community cooridnators and an ex tutor of the guru's children. Fringe participants? Only because they LEFT the guru. Hate site? From your perspective maybe.

My reply:
Susan, you are muddying the discussion with these kinds of arguments. My point was that you and your friends on the forum represent a very small segment of people who have received Knowledge. Please don't try to say that all people who have received and left feel the same way as you people do. That would be delusional thinking on your part. People come and go for many different reasons, very, very few of them take up the crusade against Maharaji as you and your cohorts have done.

Contrary to the high ideals you purport this site to uphold, the nature of the site attracts and holds people who want to obstruct Maharaji from continuing his work, by what ever means is available. The arguments against him are grossly overblown, and in most cases unsubstantiated. The other side of the argument representing the thousands who benefit from his teachings is totally and suspiciously absent from ex-premie.org leaving a biased and hate-fomenting residual, which is what is intended. You even have blueprints of his house and satellite pictures of the surrounding areas which would make it easier for someone who really did want to harm him physically.

As for the fringe nature of the people involved, I've been a premie for a long time and I've heard of one or two of the individuals who support this site, and I would say that in general the profile of the people who support this site are mostly premies who really didn't have a sound understanding of what Knowledge was REALLY about, and in retrospect you would have been served better to not have been involved. But that was the choice you made at the time to get involved, and it's a free world (sort of). Yeah, there is an instructor I'd never heard of, someone who was given the job of community coordinator after burning out at DECA, and a tutor of Maharaji's kids, well big deal.

As for people 'laughing at my guru', my 'guru' received a comendation at the US Bicentennial from congress for his contribution. Ex-world leaders watch his videos and come to see him at programs. As for your laughter Susan, meaning no disrespect but, so what. Throughout history the world has consitently laughed at great ideas brought forward by individuals with insight. The world is driven by forces that are totally ignorant to matters of the heart and the soul. Even in its best attempts to come up with answers, it falls short of hitting the mark. If you want to count yourself in with that crowd, as I said, it's a free world. Besides, the people I respect, respect me greatly for who I am. No they don't understand who Maharaji is but they respect my perspective. Inadvertently they respect him by virtue of the influence he has had on my life. So don't try to bring the world in to substatiate your grievances against Maharaji. Majority rules but it's not necessarily right. The sense of comfort and security you are trying to find in numbers is probably a false one.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 21:18:19 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Yes
Subject: realistic if you are in a cult
Message:

Susan, you are muddying the discussion with these kinds of arguments.

I am sure you think so.


My point was
that you and your friends on the forum represent a very small segment of people who
have received Knowledge. Please don't try to say that all people who have received and
left feel the same way as you people do.

I did not say that. But, if one were able to poll those who had left it is my opinion most would be more sympathetic to the ex site than to Rawat.

That would be delusional thinking on your part.

this would be an example of projection

People come and go for many different reasons, very, very few of them take up the
crusade against Maharaji as you and your cohorts have done.

This is true. I do not think it means the people who do not post have fond feelings toward the guru.

Contrary to the high ideals you purport this site to uphold, the nature of the site attracts
and holds people who want to obstruct Maharaji from continuing his work, by what ever
means is available. The arguments against him are grossly overblown, and in most cases
unsubstantiated. The other side of the argument representing the thousands who benefit
from his teachings is totally and suspiciously absent from ex-premie.org leaving a biased
and hate-fomenting residual, which is what is intended. You even have blueprints of his
house and satellite pictures of the surrounding areas which would make it easier for
someone who really did want to harm him physically.

There are thousands who feel they benefit from Myung Sung Moons teachings and Hare Khrishnas and Scientology too.

As for the fringe nature of the people involved, I've been a premie for a long time and
I've heard of one or two of the individuals who support this site, and I would say that in
general the profile of the people who support this site are mostly premies who really
didn't have a sound understanding of what Knowledge was REALLY about

I would imagine that you would say that any premie who later decides the guru is a fraud never understood what Knowledge was really about.


there is an instructor I'd never heard of, someone who was given the job of community
coordinator after burning out at DECA, and a tutor of Maharaji's kids, well big deal.

My point there was that many of the ex's who post were involved for a long long time. Many are former Ashram premies. If these people were still involeved you would not be labeling them 'fringe', you are doing so as a defense against the legitimacy of their arguments.

As for people 'laughing at my guru', my 'guru' received a comendation at the US
Bicentennial from congress for his contribution.


Are you referring to the pic of him in '76 with Strom Thurmond getting some award for being a humanitarian leader? Must be pretty slim pickins if you have to trot that out to try to legitimize the guy.

Ex-world leaders watch his videos and
come to see him at programs.

Well, whoopee shit. I bet if they were elected leaders they would not be reelected if that were known.

As for your laughter Susan, meaning no disrespect but, so
what. Throughout history the world has consitently laughed at great ideas brought
forward by individuals with insight. The world is driven by forces that are totally ignorant
to matters of the heart and the soul. Even in its best attempts to come up with answers,
it falls short of hitting the mark.

One of the wonderful things about being in a religous cult is that you are a member of an elite group who knows the truth that others cannot see. You see the emporers clothes but I think he is naked.

Yes, I do think that the fact that most people think Rawat is a cult leader is meaningful. I do not feel the least bit insecure in stating this. He is a cult leader.

I have had the lovely experience now of finding out that it is even a worse cult than I had even imagined. I got to find out that in order to protect their guru people will lie about very serious issues and betray the trust of people who once respected them. They will lie about something as serious as whether a child molester was reported. It is disgusting. I wonder if those people have any sort of conscience at all. I guess any sort of ugly behavior can be justified if one is doing it to protect rawat.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 14, 2000 at 02:25:10 (GMT)
From: Yes
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: No just realistic
Message:
One thing I observe that all you guys seem to default to when discussing this topic is how you readily parrot out such statements like, 'Well you are in a cult so therefore blah, blah, blah, blah….' Do you know how much it looks like you cannot think for yourself? Jingoes like this are a comfortable fall-back for people who don't want to go through the work of entertaining an opposing idea. Do you know how narrow-minded you appear? That's cool Carol, you represent your side's ignorance so well.

Generally my response to most of your post is: Okay you have have your view, and I have mine. I know for sure you have no understanding of Maharaji's message, but then that's understandable given you don't seem to want any.

You said:
'I have had the lovely experience now of finding out that it is even a worse cult than I had even imagined. I got to find out that in order to protect their guru people will lie about very serious issues and betray the trust of people who once respected them. They will lie about something as serious as whether a child molester was reported. It is disgusting. I wonder if those people have any sort of conscience at all. I guess any sort of ugly behavior can be justified if one is doing it to protect rawat.'

My comments on your statements:
If this indeed happened it is not systemic and you cannot judge me or others based on the misdoings you perceive. Premies are generally an honest and sincere group of people, and I know that Knowledge has benefited many more people than it has harmed. The handful of people who support this site represent the few for whom their involvement may have been negative. And if those are the numbers Carol, that's a percentage I can live with.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 03:07:51 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Bingo, Susan (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 15:50:57 (GMT)
From: Christopher
Email: None
To: Yes, you do...
Subject: ... and I find it here!
Message:




helprep


Thanks for the feedback.

I'll take your points one by one:


  1. 'Small percentage' you say?
  2. Certainly.


  3. 'Fringe participants'?
  4. In what?


  5. Ex-premie.org ' ...can only be viewed by an onlooker as a hate site'?
  6. Suggest you re-evaluate from a less biased position.


  7. '...toppling the efforts of a man' ?
  8. A con-man, remember


  9. 'Message of hope ...'?
  10. Like World Peace? Like he's the saviour? Like I said, a con-man.


  11. '...scrutinised under a microscope'?
  12. Get real


  13. '...no personal smudges against him whatsoever?'

  14. Personal smudges are a by-product. The truth will out.


  15. '...chaotic piece of hate drivel'?

  16. see item 3.


  17. '...proof that improprieties have been committed'


Your denial of them speaks volumes.

As for paragraph 2 of your post:

Me 'naive'?

Naive enough to follow the Maha, but not so naive as to ignore the evidence against him.


'...unrealistic dreams of glory'?

You think that I alone can topple him? You'll need some help on this one.


'pretentious'?


I used to hate using my middle name. Guess I've got over that now.


'the internet ...has no credibility'?Well, I've seen Mr Rawat's homepage.

And finally, you're damn right, this takes no courage whatsoever. But then I never saw Maharaji as a windmill. (Despite all the hot air),


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 21:41:45 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr
To: Christopher
Subject: Hey are you seriouss?
Message:
I can give you more details on this fraud........
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 16:03:00 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Christopher
Subject: Charity?
Message:
Christopher,

Thanks much for your efforts.

I do not understand the status as 'charity' for Elan Vital, UK. Does the status differ from Elan Vital, USA? Here in the States, I can understand a status of non-profit religious organization for Elan Vital, but not charity. The term 'charity' is reserved here for organizations that actually help people in need in very practical ways, (at least I think so).

I said above that I can understand Elan Vital as a non-profit religion. But let me qualify that: what I mean is that I can understand how the government might mistakenly recognize Elan Vital as such. Of course I think any sort of 'non-profit' status for Elan Vital is fraudulent.

Again, thanks, and I wish I could supply you some concrete evidence. If only some PAMs would come forward.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 16:36:24 (GMT)
From: Christopher
Email: planetqwerty@postmaster.co.uk
To: Way
Subject: Tongues of men ...
Message:
Thanks for the moral support Way,

The Charity Commission for England and Wales (- not the whole of the UK) has a website that should be able to clarify any differences. To check it out I suggest you click first on 'Publications' then 'Useful Guidelines'

For what it's worth, here are a few quotes from their guidelines:

'People must be able to trust charity. It is unfortunate that the occasional person will try and take advantage of the public's generosity by collecting for themselves rather than good causes. By working together the Charity Commission and the public can fight such exploitation.'

'When you give money to a charity you have a right to expect it will be spent properly on the things you want to support ...'

'We will mount an investigation where there is good reason to do so. For example, we will consider complaints supported by evidence that:

...the funds and assets of the charity are being used or applied in breach of trust;
...the trustees are misleading the public or us in a material way;
...the trustees are receiving unauthorised benefits from the charity; ...'

That one '...By working together the Charity Commission and the public can fight such exploitation' makes me think that, if we're going to get any results, it needs more than just one member of the public to complain.

Why not write/email them?

Cheers,

Chris

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 20:17:37 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Christopher
Subject: Tongues of men ...
Message:
Thanks, Christopher, for sending me in the right direction for the charity definition in the UK. It does include the advancement of religion. Quite right. Jolly ho. Cheers. (You Brits are weird). What's a spliff?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 16:48:26 (GMT)
From: Christopher
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: ...and angels
Message:
No, Way!

The advancement of religion spiel was from Divine Light Mission's objectives, viz:

'TO ADVANCE RELIGION IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE PRINCIPLES OF SRI HANS JI GURU MAHARAJA AND SRI SANTA JI GURU MAHARAH BY PROMOTING THE KNOWLEDGE THAT GOD IS THE SUPREME CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE: THE REALISATION OF GOD WITHOUT NOMINATIONAL BIAS; THE RELIEF OF PREVENTION OF SUFFERING BOTH MENTAL AND PHYSICAL OCCASIONED BY POVERTY, ILL HEALTH AND THE ABUSE OF DRUGS.'

(Did they really mean 'the relief of prevention of suffering ...'?)

Elan Vital's objectives are given as:

'TO ADVANCE THE EDUCATION IN THE UNDERSTANDING AND REALISATION OF HUMAN POTENTIAL THROUGH SELF-KNOWLEDGE BASED UPON THE TEACHINGS OF PREM PAL SINGH RAWAT K/A MAHARAJI.'

Yeah, I guess we Brits can seem a little weird. Or should that be wired?

Spliff?

It's been so long I've forgotten;) But when you do find out, why not let these guys know.

Cheers,

Chris

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 15:03:02 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Christopher
Subject: Ideas
Message:
Hi Christopher! Compliments to you for your correspondence with the Charity Commission, especially the response to their letter. It was quite effective. That a charity is rolling in money which has been legitimately placed in question should be a reason to conduct an investigation, not to refuse to initiate one.

Christopher, if you attend the Latvian club meetings, perhaps we could talk when I get to London. I have lots of ideas about this issue. It would also be interesting for a group of exes to discuss it as a group away from the forum.

Anth suggested that Jean-Michel should come to the Latvian club when I make it there. I think that would be a very good idea, because it is my impression that he has direct, personal knowledge of how money gets diverted to Rotwat.

My email is above. You & or J-M can respond to me about this by email or here.

Good work. This is the Achille's Heel of the entire operation.

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 16:50:47 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Here's some
Message:
Hi Marianne,

Thank you for the invitation!

The Wahadamar stuff is one to nail the Rawat.
A few years back, DLM was distributing internationaly videos through Relay Intl (Dick Regan), and those videos were copyrighted Wahadamar, which was (and still very likely is) a private company owned by the Rawat family.

I guess lots of videos with the Wahadamar copyright on them are still around, and this could easily be traced in EV's and Relay Intl's accounts. I still own some of these videos (kept in a safe place, no need to come and break my doors, they are not at my home or at my work).

This should be enough.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 17:21:54 (GMT)
From: Christopher
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: ...and then some
Message:
The following used to be on the ex-premie.org FAQ page:

'M has created a company owned by his children called WAHADAMAR Inc. We're told it's a derivation of his children's names: WAdi, HAnsi, DAya and AMAR... '

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 17:18:44 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Wahadamar
Message:
Wahadamar = Wadi Hansi Daya Amar?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 18:30:07 (GMT)
From: Shifting
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Wahadamar
Message:
That is what it's. His kid's names.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 16:55:02 (GMT)
From: shifting
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Here's some
Message:
I have videos and old magazines too.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 17:56:37 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: shifting
Subject: Do you own Wahadamar videos?
Message:
Where do you live ? UK ?

Only Wahadamar videos are needed for this ....

I have plenty of them, but not in UK.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 18:45:19 (GMT)
From: Shifting
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Do you own Wahadamar videos?
Message:
sorry. I live in USA
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 18:43:56 (GMT)
From: Shifting
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Do you own Wahadamar videos?
Message:
Yes.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 15:42:14 (GMT)
From: Christopher
Email: planetqwerty@postmaster.co.uk
To: Marianne
Subject: Ideas wanted too!
Message:
Hi there Marianne!

Your idea of discussing this as a group away from the Forum is a good one, but I don't want to discourage any exes who can't make it to London!

So, like the thread says, help wanted! Let's hear everyone's take on the subject.

Enjoy,

Christopher

(P.S. Will be emailing you soon).

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 21:34:52 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Christopher
Subject: 'My take on the subject'
Message:
Chris,

I applaud you for your efforts with the Charity Commission. I have done some investigation here in the states. Here is what I think.

In the past, probably through the 70s and into the early 80s, the non-profit Divine Light Mission, and later Elan Vital, violated the tax laws repeatedly by sihponing money donated to those organizations to Maharaji's personal use. I saw this with my own eyes, especially in connection with the plane project, but also in regard to other things Maharaji wanted. Mishler made it clear in his interview that DLM bough M's property in Malibu and spent a large part of its money on stuff M wanted for his personal use.

But I am fairly certain that those kinds of blatant violations have been cleaned up, and EV is careful not to jeopardize its non-profit status by doing those things. In fact, I would bet not all that much money even goes through Elan Vital. Certainly nothing like the millions that did when it used to be callled Divine Light Mission. To dissasociate itself from the violations of the past is part of the reason, I think, that the name was changed, and why Maharaji would like people to believe Elan Vital is different from Divine Light Mission, which it isn't; it's just DLM with a name change, legally at least.

So, because M realized he couldn't get away with siphoning the funds from the organization for himself, he gets money from other sources, namely, the following:

1. As we did when I was a premie, premies send money directly to Maharaji as a 'gift'. It doesn't go through a non-profit corporation, or anything else. The money is NOT tax-deductible for the premies who donate it, and whether M would have to pay taxes on any of it is questionable, as to whether it is 'income' and subject to income tax, or 'gifts' which are not.

2. Amext Inc., and possibily other businesses give him money. Clearly, there is plently of testimony from people on the forum that Amtext has given Maharaji large quantities of money over the years. In fact, Maharaji has supposedly stated that it largely paid for that palacial mansion in Malibu that he lives in.

3. Through indirect means, he may make money off the trinket bizarre at programs and sold through Visions. This isn't altogether clear, but he or his family may be part owners of Visions and hence share in the 'profits.' There may be similar schemes, ostensibly legal, concerning videos and profits from the satellite feeds.

4. Although Elan Vital can't legally pay Maharaji money directly, it can cover his 'expenses' for his attendance at 'events' that are officially sponsored by Elan Vital. This could include leasing the plane from another corporation directly or indirectly owned by Maharaji or his family from which they profit, paying his fuel, meals, living and other expenses in connection with such events, and a mirade of other 'expenses' that apply to him personally. This is probably technically legal, but kind of a gray area regarding what is a reimbursable expense under the tax code and what is income. Note that on M's website it is stressed that he isn't paid by EV, only has his expenses reimbursed by EV for 'events' which they 'sponsor.' This is stated for a specific purpose to emphasize that the non-profit isn't paying M an income and EV is totally separate and just sets up programs and 'invites' Maharaji to attend. In reality, we all know that EV doesn't do a damn thing that M doesn't tell them to do.

5. Premies, companies, and/or the organizations buy Maharaji things and property he wants.

6. He may have money from the past which he got from DLM and the premies that he has invested and is getting income off that.

So, although it's great that the corporate investigations take place, I would assume that those things have been pretty much cleaned up within the past 15 years or so. So, I wouldn't be surprised if not much was uncovered.

JW

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 03:07:41 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: You're right, but
Message:
the Wahadamar connection was definitely a mistake.

The hamster is not supposed to get any money (because EV's charitable status) for the copyrights he owns on the videos. He doesn't anymore, but this lasted for a while.

You know what: after the Wahadamar connection was stopped, EV asked to return them all those videos. Of course they could never get all of them back. That's why they're still asking premies to send back their 'old videos' to send them to 'Africa'. They're still after them !!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 16:43:27 (GMT)
From: Nedda
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: You're right, but
Message:

Nedda responded:
The PC facts:

State ID Number: 01710708
Type: LEGAL
Status: ACTIVE
Good Standing Status: ONLY AVAILABLE DIRECTLY FROM SECRETARY OF STATE.
Date of Filing 08-03-1992
Name: WAHADAMAR, INC.
Mailing Address: xxxxxxxxx
THOUSAND OAKS, CA 91358

Duration: PERPETUAL
Title: PRESIDENT
Name: JOHN K. xxxx
Address: xxxxxxxxxxxx
THOUSAND OAKS
91360
CA
Title: REGISTERED AGENT
Agent Name: ALVARO xxxxxxxxxx
Address: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
90067
LOS ANGELES

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 06:56:16 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Nedda
Subject: You're right, but
Message:
John K would maybe be John Knight
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jan 11, 2000 at 23:59:10 (GMT)
From: cc
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: You're right, but
Message:

cc responded:
Not Knight

Try Bale as in hay/quantum/elan vital/seva

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 14:22:53 (GMT)
From: Christopher
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Please clarify
Message:
Jean-Michel

You say the 'Wahadamar connection' was a mistake. Please clarify - are you refering to M's actions? or to your own post (above) about the subject?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 22:34:47 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr
To: Christopher
Subject: Please clarify
Message:
please use your e-mail and I'll try to clarify

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 16:53:27 (GMT)
From: SHIFTING
Email: None
To: Christopher
Subject: Ideas wanted too!
Message:
GOOD FOR YOU!!

ISN'T SICKENING??

I have to say that 'they' have so many sneaky people around who are ready to find a way to justify what they do...and make it look like is nothing wrong with it.

Have anybody tried to contact any authority in the USA?

When I think that I tortured my family since 1974 to receive knowledge; when I think of all the money I spent over the years traveling to follow him; when I think about what I put my only child through because of my involvement with M.; when I think about his life style; when I think about how my life would have been if I never have believed he was God; when I think about all the emotional pain I suffered all the years because I believe in him...I FEEL LIKE SCREAMING...

You see? I am a new ex-premie. Just two weeks old...Now I can see the whole picture. It's so, so crazy and unjust...

Is anybody writing a book? :-)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 17:07:28 (GMT)
From: Christopher
Email: planetqwerty@postmaster.co.uk
To: SHIFTING
Subject: Ideas wanted too!
Message:
Those feelings are powerful and need expression, my friend.

This Forum goes some of the way towards enabling/empowering our self-expression, but a scream just doesn't translate so well on a qwerty keyboard, does it?

Thanks for reminding me how I still feel inside.

Directing that energy ... that's what'll get results.

Hope you get through these difficult times with all the support you can hope for.

Best wishes,

Chris

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 17:15:58 (GMT)
From: shifting
Email: None
To: Christopher
Subject: Ideas wanted too!
Message:
I'll be okay. My faith in my Creator is intact. Thanks for your words. Are you in UK?

I live in the USA

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 17:29:36 (GMT)
From: Christopher
Email: None
To: shifting
Subject: Ideas wanted too!
Message:
UK it is, Shifting.

If you're new here, why not check out the
White Pages? You can access my own web-page from there if you like.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index