Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Feb 12, 2000 at 08:58:02 (GMT)
From: Feb 02, 2000 To: Feb 09, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


Powerman -:- Bigotry Towards Premies -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:09:34 (GMT)
__ Haldor -:- Bigotry Towards Premies -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 15:37:27 (GMT)
__ Mike -:- Isn't the name of this place -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:30:45 (GMT)
__ __ EddytheHootle -:- Mike The Stone Worshipper -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:12:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike -:- Not quite! -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 16:56:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Mike The Stone Worshipper -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 22:08:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mike -:- Mike...the stone PRESERVER! -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 17:09:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Mike...the stone PRESERVER! -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 18:07:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Shp -:- Mike The Stone Worshipper -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 23:13:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Mike The Stone Worshipper -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 17:30:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Reply to Mike -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:57:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ms. K. -:- Reply to Mike -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 17:38:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Reply to Mike -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:06:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Reply to shp -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 18:47:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Just like every other 'quote' -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 17:54:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Just like every other 'quote' -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:13:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- No, you are wrong -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 16:12:09 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- I agree (except for Asians) -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:27:42 (GMT)
__ __ Powerman -:- I agree (except for Asians) -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:32:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Yes and no -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:34:42 (GMT)
__ Shp -:- Bigotry Towards Premies -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:27:19 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Definition of bigotry -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 19:34:51 (GMT)
__ __ Bouncing Betty -:- Bigotry Towards Premies -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:50:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Shp -:- Bigotry Towards Premies -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 17:20:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bouncing Betty -:- Bigotry Towards Premies -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:38:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Bigotry Towards Premies -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:59:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Shp -:- Chubby Checker would love this -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 21:47:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bouncing Betty -:- Steely Dan would love this -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 22:05:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Bouncing Betty is bouncing -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 23:25:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bouncing Betty -:- Look Who's Talking -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 01:53:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Look Who's Talking -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 11:57:19 (GMT)
__ __ Bouncing Betty -:- Bigotry Towards Premies -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 21:38:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Bias is natural and good -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:42:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bouncing Betty -:- Bias is natural and good -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 19:05:43 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Bigotry Towards ex- Premies -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:27:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Ahem,.... SB? -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:35:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB/akaShifting -:- Don't fit anymore -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:35:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Ding Dong -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 03:27:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ no, you r Rob -:- Ding on you? -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 04:02:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- this is stupid -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 04:11:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, exactly, Ger -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 04:40:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Don't fit anymore -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 22:24:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- I find a deep enjoyment -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 01:07:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I find a deep enjoyment -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 01:36:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Practice French -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 02:49:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh, I was just saying 'hi' -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 21:46:57 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Bigotry Towards Premies -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 17:56:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- good post robyn! (nt)_ -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 16:45:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Shp -:- Bigotry Towards Premies -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:14:57 (GMT)
__ __ Mike -:- Bigotry Towards Premies -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:40:12 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- You think like a child, Shp -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:32:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Shp -:- Thank you for that compliment -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:42:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You fell for my trap, dummy -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:50:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- When ya dig a hole for someone -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 17:33:44 (GMT)
__ 09 -:- I am prejudice against 'virus' -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 19:44:14 (GMT)
__ goodvibes -:- goodvibes -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 11:37:13 (GMT)
__ __ selena -:- goodvibes -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 11:47:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ selene -:- whoever you are -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 19:51:54 (GMT)

rupee murdoch -:- donner ,books,amtext -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 06:19:27 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- London office -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 09:52:22 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek™ -:- Thanks Added to Best and Corp -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 06:54:41 (GMT)
__ __ who is chuck nathan -:- name sounds familir -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 08:28:45 (GMT)

Selene -:- way off topic -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 06:16:15 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek™ -:- You've got to be kidding! RTFM -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 07:24:57 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- Roger RTF-post -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:09:09 (GMT)
__ __ Runamok -:- way way way offtopic -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 08:32:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- what the fuck are you saying -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 07:11:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- Thanks Runamok -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:40:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- Spam Email - We all get it -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 19:08:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I know -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 19:30:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- Spam - the lesson for everyone -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:16:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sean -:- Spam - the lesson for everyone -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 01:17:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- The Worst Email that I got -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 02:59:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- And for women it's worse -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:26:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- and now THIS good vibes shit -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:21:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- Yes! Cowards instilling fear -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:33:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Yes! Cowards instilling fear -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:36:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- Ah, the wide awake Selene -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 21:16:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Raja Ji -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 01:36:58 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Ah, Runamok, Man of Peace! -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:40:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Runamok -:- Jim Heller, Lord of Denial -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 19:38:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- Get the hell out of here, Run -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:07:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Don't Lie, Roger/Barney, etc. -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 02:00:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- FUCK OFF! RUNAMOK -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 02:38:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Roger and the Fuckoffs -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 03:57:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- They're calling me a bad names -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 04:20:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- C'mon Rog -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 04:28:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- LISTEN YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 06:53:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- The Assholes LIVE at the Forum -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 17:41:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Run, why don't YOU come clean? -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 04:46:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Jim, wake me when you leave. -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 06:39:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- R u afraid to answer, Run? -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 16:28:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Try reading the reply, Cap'n Q -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 17:35:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're lying, Runanduck -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 17:47:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Your M.O. - My M.O. -:- Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 05:18:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Bizarre......... just bizarre -:- Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 13:59:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- Ah, Runamok, Man of Peace! -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:12:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Honestly, Selene? -:- Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 17:43:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Honestly, Selene? -:- Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 17:48:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gerry -:- Goddamit Jim, quit jumping the gun... -:- Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 21:29:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Ah, grasshopper .....(this space for rent)........ -:- Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 21:35:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- oh JIM?????????????? -:- Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 20:09:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Runamok -:- Mahatma Jim -:- Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 18:55:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Gerry -:- Funamok you fucking weirdo I'll tell you one more -:- Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 21:13:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Herr Ger -:- Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 21:27:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What's taking you so long, Run? -:- Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 21:42:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- The Drudge Report Rears it Ugly Heads -:- Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 21:58:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Evasion, evasion, evasion -:- Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 22:03:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gerry -:- Seriously Funboy you need a shrink -:- Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 21:40:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You really don't get it, Run -:- Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 19:23:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Wow! You're like a regular Werner Erhard!! -:- Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 21:32:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What you fear is the truth, bud -:- Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 22:14:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Thanks, it's been a lot of fun as usual. -:- Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 07:35:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Your game sucks, Run. -:- Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 13:18:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Your Ruse Blues -:- Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 20:03:15 (GMT)

G -:- Fitting punishments for Rawat -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 00:07:00 (GMT)

G -:- Notes on above -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 02:09:07 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- No need for Satpal -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 02:32:44 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- No need for Satpal -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 04:38:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- It's all a ***Best*** -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 07:15:30 (GMT)

Haldor -:- genuinely puzzled -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 20:30:45 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- Choosing ignorance -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:02:43 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- and possibly confused... -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 17:25:02 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- premie copmplacency -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 23:20:22 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- chilling...must read -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 17:28:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Q for Susan -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:33:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- Answer from Susan -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 22:33:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- Very poignant answer (NT) -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 02:00:18 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- ***Best*** -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 07:52:32 (GMT)
__ __ Bouncing Betty -:- premie copmplacency -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 00:38:34 (GMT)
__ __ Memphis Belle -:- premie copmplacency -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 23:51:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- premie superiority/complacency -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 04:58:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Shalom Helen -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 14:24:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Shalom Helen -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 19:47:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- My secret email address -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 22:47:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- My secret email address -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 02:53:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- jc is my initials..... -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 03:19:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sean -:- premie copmplacency -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 02:46:04 (GMT)
__ I dunno -:- genuinely puzzled -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 22:01:50 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- genuinely puzzled -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 22:22:43 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Fisher of men -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 20:42:11 (GMT)
__ __ Mili -:- Fisher of men -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 07:30:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- Liar of men -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 14:20:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Fisher of men -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 14:13:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Fisher of men -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 02:25:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Fisher of men -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 14:19:06 (GMT)

Roger eDrek™ -:- Security HTML and Scripts -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 20:01:34 (GMT)

Shp -:- U.S. employment now with... -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 19:10:31 (GMT)
__ Ben Lurking -:- U.S. employment now with... -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 23:55:17 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- U.S. employment now with... -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 20:22:25 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek™ -:- Census Jobs = Fun & Money -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 19:31:47 (GMT)
__ Powerman -:- U.S. employment now with... -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 19:19:00 (GMT)
__ __ Harry -:- who cares -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 03:43:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Powerman -:- who cares -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 05:36:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Harry -:- who cares -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 09:57:10 (GMT)
__ __ Shp -:- Reply to you Powerman -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 22:27:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Powerman -:- Reply to you Powerman -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 23:17:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Shp -:- This thread is frayed enough -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 03:54:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- This thread is frayed enough -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 04:58:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Powerman and Harry, for both -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 15:23:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- HOLY FUCKING COW!!!!!!!!! -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:24:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- You can twist it any way you -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 21:23:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp comes from a lineage -:- shp is on self-destruct -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 09:41:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- wishing won't make it so, guys -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 12:15:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Your kind of half-baked ideas -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 17:30:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Powerman and Harry, for both -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:05:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Nitpicking terms with Powerman -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 12:22:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ another mole -:- Nitpicking terms with Powerman -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 18:12:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Nitpicking terms with Powerman -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 18:28:42 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- Excellent response Powerman NT -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 03:06:18 (GMT)


Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:09:34 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Bigotry Towards Premies
Message:
This is from a thread down below. I brought it up because shp asked for some input.

Shp said... Now, how about the automatic negative response to premies around here who come by with no intention of leaving Maharaji? Isn't that also bigotry? Can we discuss that too? Can't you believe that some of us might just want to communicate with no hiddeen agendas? Shp

There are a few distinctions I can think of, off the top of my head, that separate the hostility towards premies on this forum, and bigotry as we know it.

First, the anger towards premies is generated by the expression of an oppressive belief system that was previously embraced by the people who discuss on this forum. It's an anger based on reason and thinking that was brought to a conclusion. Bigotry is based on an unreasonable bias against a group of people. Although there's hostility here, it isn't prejudicial.

Second, in almost all cases of bigotry the vicitms have no responsibility for the hostility. By definition, bigotry is hostility which the victims did nothing to deserve. And in line with this, there's nothing the victims can do to change it because they didn't 'do' anything in the first place.

Blacks, Jews, Muslims, Asians, Hispanis, lesbians and gays are hated as a result of irrationality and prejudice. There's nothing they could do to change their status even if they tried. If you're black, Asian or Hispanic, you can't change your complexion, and so forth.

But in the case of premies, you're talking about a belief system that specifically elicits anger in people (ex-premies) who suffered a loss by formerly believing in it themselves.

Third, the results of bigotry appears in forms more serious than verbal insults. The discrimination can be seen in losses that are suffered physically and financially. None of those losses apply here; the most serious offense is an exchange of words.

The expressions towards premies on this forum don't constitute bigotry, shp. They just don't.

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 15:37:27 (GMT)
From: Haldor
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Bigotry Towards Premies
Message:
Dear ex's
I have enjoyed posting to you and accept that there may be a hostile response,that's alright by me.I wanted to express another perspective which you have allowed me to do,thanks. Anyway it must spice it up a bit for you being able to do some stomping. I do actually understand where you are coming from having been through the ashram stuff, yet I tend to not blame M anymore than I blame the Catholic church when a priest gets busted for doing something naughty.I understand how cheated you feel,I'm not enlightened (whatever that means)yet either. I know I ought to be silent but the excitement of this keeps opening my mouth as a sneeze or a yawn does. Your enmity fans my love,don't ask how.So if i want to carry on being cannon fodder I'll continue posting now and again.
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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:30:45 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Isn't the name of this place
Message:
PM: Great points PM! Might I add, isn't the name of this place enough to 'warn' people of its content? What a silly idea that current premies and m-apologists can come here, try to 'satsang' us and then get a hearty-handshake in return. Silly, just silly!

SHP: This forum is called EX-PREMIE.ORG, I say again, EX-PREMIE.ORG. Get it? The operative is 'EX.' If you want to 'satsang' people, go to WWW.CURRENT-PREMIE.ORG....... oh, wait a minute, there isn't one of those with a forum where premies can speak their minds; I wonder why?

Disagreement isn't 'bigotry,' shp! It's called 'freedom of expression.' As PM stated so well in the post above, our 'disagreement' isn't with the physical-premie, but with the stupid idea that M is god (or anything else, other than a normal human being with delusions of grandeur). That isn't bigotry, shp, it's common sense!

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:12:51 (GMT)
From: EddytheHootle
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Mike The Stone Worshipper
Message:
Mike..you are a big bullshiter...Anything you dont agree with you try and Trash..

Few of the things I have seen here from your Trash including your lowdown on:

Ram Das
Casteneda...

And I guess lots more If I have the time to search through your ridiculus threads..

You seem to think that a Rock in the Canyons...has some magical or Spiritual powers for you...

Hey...mike the world has moved on from the Stone Worshiping Age...you are about 2000 years behind...

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 16:56:13 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: EddytheHootle
Subject: Not quite!
Message:
ETH: First, tell me where I'm wrong about Ram Das and Castaneda?

Ram Das said what he said about using psychedelics in an interview in a buddhist magazine (it's called: Tricycle). Would you like the page and paragraph, or are you intellectually capable of looking them up yourself? Let me know and I will provide the info for you.

Castaneda, well....... Go ahead and believe his clap-trap, if you wish. He's not native, he doesn't know what he's talking about. But, if you choose to believe that anything he said came from any real research that he was doing.... Just don't think that you now know anything about yaqui's or any other native culture, you don't after reading that book. They are great fiction, nothing more. Since he tried to pass them off as fact, I refer to him as a LIAR! He lied and he paid dearly for the lie. None of his writing has been taken seriously by ANY anthropologist. Native Americans have universally condemned the work as outright fabrication (gee.... should we take their word for it???) Sorry, Eddie, but this is an area where I have EXPERIENCE! Unlike you, I am permitted into native ceremonies and have been all of my life. I am a member of the lakota nation, you idiot! Again, if you would read some earlier posts (in context, for a change) you would KNOW this. But, of course, don't let my firsthand knowledge of these ceremonies and beliefs have any affect on your fantasy vision of native americans. God forbid!

Third, and most importantly..... What I said about my experiences in the Grand Canyon had nothing to do with a 'rock.' Other than the simple fact that it's formation looked alot like a 'mandala' and the rock wall was very symmetrical (not THAT rare down there.... it's beautiful). It DID have a lot to do with a very long hike, which may have precipitated the event. We were exhausted and probably just a bit dehydrated. We were at about the half-way point in a rough 200 mile hike! (If you would like the route, I will be glad to provide scans of the topos and my journals). Unlike hikers from the late 70's, 80's and 90's, we didn't have the light-weight equipment and we were actually blazing several trails that hadn't been used in years. We hiked the LENGTH of the canyon, not just a portion of it. NOW, how do yo think that might affect my biochemistry over the weeks we were down there??? Hmmmmm???? At the time, I was convinced it was spiritual experience, later I realized it could just have easily been biochemical in nature. Either way, it was alot of fun. I DO have to agree with Robyn, though..... If there were a 'god,' he/she/it had alot more to do with creating 'natural places' than he/she/it did with creating that 'monstrosity in Malibu!'

I do love the canyon, though, because SO many years of evolution and earth history are written in its walls! It's a book with an almost infinite number of pages. It IS an overwhelming physical experience. EVERY SINGLE event in our evolutionary history is written on those 'pages' and those pages are amazingly easy to 'read!' The shear SIZE of the Canyon, alone, puts people in awe! Of course, since you have not likely been there, you wouldn't really know. Try it, you'll like it! Better yet, why don't you follow the topos that I can send and see it from my perspective? But, once again, don't let my firsthand experience of the region (garnered over years) affect your lala-land view of the way it is..... Yes, I DO LOVE THE PLACE, but not for the reasons that you concocted..... Rock Worship, my ass!

Once again, hooter, instead of providing a rational argument you choose to attack someone personally. You are a total asshole (that IS a personal attack, by the way)! Your meaningless, irrational and trivial response is absolute proof of that!

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 22:08:40 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: EddytheHootle
Subject: Mike The Stone Worshipper
Message:
Dear Eddy,
'Hey...mike the world has moved on from the Stone Worshiping Age...you are about 2000 years behind... '
That is part of the problem with the world today, we think we've beaten mother nature but she is just building up her strength for a huge retaliation! The closest I feel to 'god' is in nature. My girls use to tell me, when I asked if they wanted to go to the creek swimming with me, 'We love you mom, but you like to sit on rocks.' :) I do.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 17:09:33 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Mike...the stone PRESERVER!
Message:
Robyn: As you might have noticed in my post to this latest in the premie-lineage-of-total-buffoons, the term 'stone PRESERVER' would be a little more accurate. I know that you know what I mean! My involvement with movements to preserve that wonderous 'book,' is and has been long term in nature. But, I guess anyone who had ever seen the place would understand that (and understand 'why,' too).

So where did this moron come from ,any ideas?

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 18:07:17 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Mike...the stone PRESERVER!
Message:
Christ Mike, I can understand it just looking around at the creeks I go to. I remember when I saw Niagra Falls, I didn't expect to be impressed but was awe inspired big time so I can just imagine how seeing the Grand Canyon would be.
As far as EddytheHootle, I think he is straight out of some lost Dr. Suess book! I just keep picturing the drawings and story that he comes from. :) I guess I'll have to read some more of his posts to get a better idea of his character. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 23:13:19 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Mike The Stone Worshipper
Message:
I've been carrying stones with me more lately for their properties and inspiration. Quartz, tiger's eye, goshenite, hematite, fluorite, lapis...all stones with power and energy stored within. We just don't know how to tap it all yet. Getting closer with the quartz movements in watches, but that's just child's play compared to what this stuff can do.

I don't worship stones, I worship the Creator of stones.
But I sure do have an increased respect for them as a creation, having learned about their place in man's history and possible future.

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 17:30:47 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Mike The Stone Worshipper
Message:
shp: I have a particular affinity for vishnu schist. It's at the bottom of the grand canyon and has absolutely no hint of life within it! It's over 1.7 to 2.0 BILLION years old! Can you imagine it? The 'scale,' in 'physical relief' displayed in the various layers of the canyon is just beyond belief.

Going from there up thru the various formations: Bass formation, Hakatai shale, Shinumo Quartzite, Nankoweap, Galeros, Kwagunt, Tapeats, Bright Angel Shale, Muav limestone, Temple butte limestone, Redwall limestone, and on and on and on thru thousands of feet of layers until you reach the Kaibab formation that's about 250 million years old (and absolutely chock-a-block with fossils!). It's like walking thru time! Looking at the various 'explosions' of life and their 'extinctions' as you go up...... WOW! Now, I ask you shp, does that sound like rock-worship????? Yeah, maybe it does.... he he he.

I think 'rock respector' is a more appropriate term, don't you? he he he :-)

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:57:10 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Reply to Mike
Message:
'The Forum is an unmoderated collection of ongoing threaded discussions where ex-premies, current premies, and non-premies express their views on anything and everything related to following Maharaji, practicing Knowledge, and life afterwards. We always welcome new participants to the Forum, but please read
the following before you enter.'

Mike,

The above is from this site's Forum intro page and it speaks for itself.

Also, I have been around here long enough to know that any premie who comes here and does not indicate they are leaving Maharaji within a due amount of time and presented evidence starts getting hassled to death over the way they think. Call it bigotry, bias, bullshit, whatever.

I don't want or need anyone's sympathy, as has been implied.

And I don't feel like a vicitm either. I feel like I see something you don't, despite all the apparent paradoxes. I am not set in stone, so anything can happen anytime. But right now (which is all we really have), I sense something more real and virtuous about Maharaji than all the crap you guys have piled up against him. No offense, that's the way I honestly feel, and I can feel that way without any animosity towards you or anyone else here. Can you respond in kind, disagreeing with me without insulting me or what my experience is? If you cannot, then that is the problem in our being able to connect, call it bigotry or call it something else.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 17:38:57 (GMT)
From: Ms. K.
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Reply to Mike
Message:
Hi Sandy -
This is also from the guidelines:
If you are a current premie, be aware that most of the people who post on the Forum are ex-premies, and that some ex's will be expressing negative feelings towards Maharaji and his organization. If you post pro-Maharaji messages, you may be met with anger or ridicule. Be prepared for this, but don't let it deter you from expressing your own views and feelings here.

I have to agree with Mike: this is clearly labeled as an Ex-Premie forum. So of course there is bias here, because the vast majority of posts are from ex-premies. Current premies are clearly warned about this in the guidelines, as stated above. As far as bigotry goes - I don't have my dictionary right here, but the connotations of that word are serious, and I'd definitely reserve it for more significant real world situations such as racial prejudice.

Sincerely -
Ms. K/Katie

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:06:22 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Ms. K.
Subject: Reply to Mike
Message:
Hi, Ms. K,

I am aware of the rest of the intro and can handle the slings and arrows.

I just feel like many here expected a Disney-like 'perfect' presentation and ongoing experience of Maharaji and everything around him, free from all worldly matters and problems. Since it did not unfold that way, I feel alot of disillusionment and disappointment coming from folks here. The disillusionment and disappointment is not really in Maharaji or Knowledge, but in their own preconceived notions of how it was going to be.

As for bigotry, that includes, race, creed, religion, national origin, sex, age, disability. The bigotry I feel here would be classified under 'creed' or 'religion' (as in belief system, not organized religion as the world recognizes it).

That's just my viewpoint.

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 18:47:02 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Reply to shp
Message:
SHP: You said, 'The disillusionment and disappointment is not really in Maharaji or Knowledge, but in their own preconceived notions of how it was going to be.'

That statement covers (like a cathole) alot of ground. Most, if not all, of the 'preconceived' notions came from the hamster, himself. Premies didn't create those notions.

The problem with actually believing what you said is that you gloss-over everything that has transpired. You may as well say, 'it's just his lila..... blah blah blah.'

You can believe one thing, though..... If K really had produced (or was still producing) any 'experiences' in me, I would still be practicing! But..... what really happened was this: I started 'experiencing' real peace and joy and love again, when I gave up on 'practicing!' I started experiencing REAL love when the recipient of my love was a REAL person (my wife and kid). Introducing my kid to the wonders of the wild and having her actually understand it.... JOY! Willingness to 'fight' for someone else's peace (and life!)...... PEACE! I guess it comes down to 'putting my actions where my mouth is.' ACTION is what produced this stuff..... MY action! Sitting around in a half-dream state produced by 'meditation' didn't do it! 'Thinking' about peace didn't produce it! 'Thinking' about 'love' didn't produce it! ACTION did it! Some would call that karma-yoga...... well, ok, call it that! But M (and his rousing theme song: ARTI) say it's a waste of time. SO all I can assume is that M doesn't know what he's talking about and never did!

Since you are so 'into' the old/ancient books, what do they all say? Those who are actually 'experiencing' those things have something in common..... THEY ACT! They don't wait for someone else to do it for them..... THEY ACT! They don't wait for heaven on earth.... THEY ACT! So far, what action has M performed to make this a better place? Teaching people to sit around and 'look' blissed-out isn't doing anything. What have premies done as a group? If they are soooooo realized and have 'seen' THAT beauty, why aren't they doing something with it? Oh yeah..... I forgot..... when you have a guru, your karma is washed away so there is no need to do anything..... what a cop-out on the world (humanity, in particular). Funny thing is: None of the old 'gurus' said you didn't have to act.... in fact, one of your favorites, Jesus, said ACT! Taking care of others (the poor, in particular) was a primary thing with him (at least if the writing is anywhere near accurate). So what's the deal? EXPECTATIONS??????? I think not! Me thinks the more likely answer is this: M is and always has been a fraud!

By the way: Concerning my own 'personal' notion about 'liberation' and god-consciousness....... When asked about these, M was FULLY AWARE of what they meant to his potential devotees. Now, did he say, 'well liberation isn't what you think it is, it's different and I will show you'????? NO, what he said was premies would achieve liberation and god-consciousness ('I WILL SHOW YOU GOD'). Did he say that god wasn't what we expected? NO, he did not! Why not, if our preconceived notions were wrong? Instead, he REINFORCED those same notions with another lie...... Guru Maharaj Ji, will you establish peace in 20 years? 'No, very soon.... very soon!' (In context, he was saying LESS than 20 years.... Read the whole interview fi you don't believe me). WELL...... I expected peace in less than 20 years and guess what????? Now, I ask you..... MY preconceived notion or his 'planting' of a preconceived notion.... you tell me! :-)

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 17:54:21 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Ms. K.
Subject: Just like every other 'quote'
Message:
Katie: YOUR response was perfect! Just like every other 'quote,' used by premies to 'prove' that M is god (or whatever), shp's quote of the forum guidelines was 'taken out of context!'

SHP: Take note of what you did and then take note of how you do this with every single biblical (or whatever) quote that you use to justify your beliefs. ANYTHING taken out of context can be made to SAY ANYTHING! By taking quotes out of context, I could easily produce a document where it would appear that Martin Luther King said slavery was a GOOD thing! Misquotes and out-of-context quotes produce the same end..... bullsh_t!

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:13:00 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Just like every other 'quote'
Message:
So what I hear you saying is that whenever someone quotes someone else, the entire text has to be included. Good luck.

What matters here is the motive of the person doing the quoting.
My heart is not as dark as you paint it, Mike. I have nothing to gain here by playing with words. I don't need the ego rush.
Trust is the key and you don't trust me simply because I am a premie. Is that bigotry or just narrow-mindedness?
You question my motives. If I were an ex-premie doing the same thing in a dialog with a premie, I feel like you'd be congratulating me. But since we are on opposing sides of an issue, you condemn me instead. This is how I perceive you now.

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 16:12:09 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: No, you are wrong
Message:
shp: If you were an ex and you quoted someone out-of-context to the point of changing the meaning of the quote, I'd 'blast' you just the same. Misquotes are misquotes, statistical games are statistical games. By misquoting the forum instructions, you changed the meaning and intent..... that's a lie, in my book.

No shp, I don't think your 'heart' is black..... deluded maybe, but not black. I DO think your motive here is to try to convert people (to save them, if you will). Unlike your early posts where you said you were here to 'gather information,' I DO think that you had a personally-applied 'mission' to save us poor deluded souls. I don't think that idea comes from a 'black' place, but rather a deluded place. To my mind, there is a HUGE difference between those two places. But, you must EXPECT that on a site that is DEDICATED to those that are ex's, you will receive a large amount of criticism for espousing pro-M trivia. In fact, I think this will be my new way of referring to M: Trivial! His ideas are trivial, his meditation techniques are trivial, his life on this planet (in terms of the REAL good that it's done) is trivial! The fact that he tries to get other people to support this 'trivia' IS NOT trivial! Thus, this site is born .... :-)

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:27:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: I agree (except for Asians)
Message:
Pman,

I agree with all you say except, of course, when it comes to Asians who, really could do something about it if they really wanted to, you know? Like, it's not as if they're even trying sometimes, is it?

No, seriously, I'm with you all the way.

Hey, my mom's getting married today! Ain't that a kicker? I just met the guy last night -- they flew in to Seattle from Toronto, we drove down from Victoria. He's a piano player. Nice guy. Went through his wallet last night when all went to bed. No EV Donation cards, no signs of Maharaji at all. I think we're gonna be alright.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:32:32 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I agree (except for Asians)
Message:
Have you thought of the implications of leaving your mother with a musician?
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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:34:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Yes and no
Message:
WEll the thing is he plays piano for the National Ballet here. So I know how to find him.

But to answer your question directly, no I haven't.

Oh no, .... they're coming...! Later.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:27:19 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Bigotry Towards Premies
Message:
Lots of words, I read them all.

But I think you know there is bigotry towards premies here.

A premie in one part of the world gets treated badly by a power-mad ashram houseparent or community coordnator and subsequently becomes an ex-premie.

Meanwhile, in another part of the world, a premie has had a storybook experience of Knowledge and Maharaji and feels great.

These two meet here on this site. The premie who was mistreated, in many but not all cases, has a built-in bias towards the premie who had a good personal experience and treats the one with the good experience like an accomplice to the mistreatment, almost from the getgo. It happens. I know from direct epxerience.

As much as you yourself might wish to avoid such low level behavior, there does exist an element of bigotry here towards any and all premies. It feels like a referred anger towards Maharaji that cannot be vented because he has not responded to those of you who have addressed him directly.

The only thing I could do to get that oppressive feeling off my back and come here would be to renounce him, which is also an oppressive feeling put forth by an element that exists here.

Come on, Powerman, look again.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 19:34:51 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Definition of bigotry
Message:
Here are some definitions of bigotry/bigot from www.dictionary.com:

big·ot·ry n. The attitude, state of mind, or behavior characteristic of a bigot; intolerance.

big·ot n. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

[French from Old French.]

Word History: A bigot may have more in common with God than one might think. Legend has it that Rollo, the first duke of Normandy, refused to kiss the foot of the French king Charles III, uttering the phrase bi got, his borrowing of the assumed Old English equivalent of our expression by God. Although this story is almost certainly apocryphal, it is true that bigot was used by the French as a term of abuse for the Normans, but not in a religious sense. Later, however, the word, or very possibly a homonym, was used abusively in French for the Beguines, members of a Roman Catholic lay sisterhood. From the 15th century on Old Frenchbigot meant “an excessively devoted or hypocritical person.” Bigot is first recorded in English in 1598 with the sense “a superstitious hypocrite.”

bigot a. Bigoted. [Obs.] In a country more bigot than ours. --Dryden.

bigot n.
[F. bigot a bigot or hypocrite, a name once given to the Normans in France. Of unknown origin; possibly akin to Sp. bigote a whisker; hombre de bigote a man of spirit and vigor; cf. It. s-bigottire to terrify, to appall. Wedgwood and others maintain that bigot is from the same source as Beguine, Beghard.]

1. A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite. [Obs.]

2. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing from them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.

To doubt, where bigots had been content to wonder and believe. --Macaulay.

bigot n : a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own.

bigot
A person who is religiously attached to a particular computer, language, operating system, editor, or other tool (see religious issues). Usually found with a specifier; thus, 'Cray bigot', 'ITS bigot', 'APL bigot', 'VMS bigot', 'Berkeley bigot'. Real bigots can be distinguished from mere partisans or zealots by the fact that they refuse to learn alternatives even when the march of time and/or technology is threatening to obsolete the favoured tool. It is truly said 'You can tell a bigot, but you can't tell him much.' Compare weenie.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:50:35 (GMT)
From: Bouncing Betty
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Bigotry Towards Premies
Message:
Shp: I'll let you and P-Man duke it out over the bigotry issue, although I think P-Man was articulate enough the first time around explaining the difference between bigotry and verbal insults. It appears you are hung up on your own little definition of bigotry. Consider, though, this one point: Most people subjected to bigotry cannot remove themselves from the bigotry as it is pervasive. You can choose to not come to this site. And I won't even try to understand your last paragraph.

My question to you is: What is the difference between 'experience' and 'direct experience'? I think that, at times, premies have used the phrase 'direct experience' as an expression of their one-upmanship/superiority--like they're really connected and happening, unlike the majority of the great unwashed.

And, lastly, perhaps as a premie you also have had a direct experience of deliverable progress. Just what is 'deliverable progress'? Sounds to me like a euphemism for sending moolah to M.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 17:20:53 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Bouncing Betty
Subject: Bigotry Towards Premies
Message:
BB said:
My question to you is: What is the difference between 'experience' and 'direct experience'? I think that, at times, premies have used the phrase 'direct experience' as an expression of their one-upmanship/superiority--like they're really connected and happening, unlike the majority of the great unwashed.

Shp sez:
I have not been as sensitive to the 'experience vs direct experience' verbage. I call my experience - direct or just plain experience - stuff that happens to me on any perceivable level of existence.

I am not into one-upmanship. It is counter-productive to the truth coming out and serves only the ego of the person who is doing it.

BB:
And, lastly, perhaps as a premie you also have had a direct experience of deliverable progress. Just what is 'deliverable progress'? Sounds to me like a euphemism for sending moolah to M.

Shp:
I haven't sent Maharaji anything in many moons. I don't think that has affected my experience of peace within me one iota.

Money is important in this world and is not evil in itself.
It's the love of money that is the root of all evil, the replacement of the infinite with the finite as the supreme goal.
And that quote from St. Paul about this matter is one of the most misquoted quotes on earth.

I don't think Maharaji 'loves' money. I thnk he thoroughly enjoys it and could do without it if the situation arose. And he would figure out a way to get some if he needed it.

Hey Bouncing Betty, are you Bill Burke doing cyber-drag on this sunny Sunday morning? Just want to keep the initials intact?
Or if not, who are you? Why the anonymity? I respect your right to privacy, but I wonder how you expect me to take you seriously if you can't even identify yourself? Are you paranoid or do you really think you would be in some sort of danger by revealing who you are?

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:38:01 (GMT)
From: Bouncing Betty
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Bigotry Towards Premies
Message:
I like my privacy too, which is probably why I use a moniker. I am neither paranoid nor in danger, but I do expect you (or anyone) to take me seriously, more by what I say than by the moniker I choose to use. Other exes use monikers and I take them seriously, and judging by your responses to some of them, I gather you do also.

One point I would like to make and that is that there is a serious difference between bias and bigotry, as anyone who has suffered from bigotry would tell you. Bias and bigtory, perhaps, are on the same spectrum, but bigotry is on the UV end of the spectrum.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:59:03 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Bouncing Betty
Subject: Bigotry Towards Premies
Message:
Moniker isn't the issue, true identity is. You cannot water it down. Why are you hiding if you are not paranoid or in danger?
I find it hard to take you seriously now. If you really were afraid of something, I would have respected your right to that and laid off. But if you simply don't have the intestinal fortitude to state your name proudly and stand by your words in the light of day, then come back when you can. Your present position is theatre of the absurd which I find...absurd.

As for UV and spectrums and all that, everybody has different tolerances to the sun, ya know? Some burn faster or slower than others. Each must be cared for on an as needed basis by anyone who would call themselves a person of conscience. Just like plants, some need more or less light, more or less water, etc.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 21:47:49 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: BB
Subject: Chubby Checker would love this
Message:
site there is so much twisting going on!

I said to come back (to me) when you can be straight up and open about who you are...since you admittedly are neither afraid nor think you are in any danger, which I would respect your right to.

You are really reaching to think I would pretend to have the keys to this place, this ex-premie website. Anyone who is stupid enough to buy your line of thought here deserves you as their news source.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 22:05:21 (GMT)
From: Bouncing Betty
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Steely Dan would love this
Message:
You said, 'But if you simply don't ave the intestinal fortitude to state your name proudly and stand by your words in the light of day, then come back when you can.' Do you see the words 'to me' after come back? I don't. Methinks you're the twister, and now, the twisted (re)interpreter. If you're stating that you implied 'to me,' then why didn't you say so, Big Boy? Don't attempt to castigate me for misinterpretation, and then try to rewrite your comments by saying you implied 'to me.'

As for this remark, 'Anyone who is stupid enough to buy your line of thought here deserves you as their news source.' Do you see me presenting myself as a news source? What far-flung and oxygen-deprived planet do you come from? Your mental machinations are some of the most labyrinthine I've ever encountered but, ah, lest I forget, that type of thinking is what allows you to sail in the wake of the HMS Miragey.

Goose-step elsewhere, Mr. Pretzel Logic.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 23:25:22 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Bouncing Betty
Subject: Bouncing Betty is bouncing
Message:
because you cannot stop bouncing. You are all over the place.
Common sense means nothing to you. You need me to spell out each syllable for ya? Dummy! Who am I to throw anybody off the site?
You are being a real wacknut right now, just like a news reporter on a slow news day, having to find anything and make it a tabloid event, even if it is stupid.

You sure are acting like Bill Burke on a bad day, BB....

G-E-T B-A-C-K T-O M-E W-H-E-N Y-O-U C-A-N S-T-A-T-E Y-O-U-R N-A-M-E, A-S-S-H-O-L-E-!-!-! C-A-P-I-C-E-?-?-?

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 01:53:11 (GMT)
From: Bouncing Betty
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Look Who's Talking
Message:
Shp:

Hope you feel better after your tantrum. Can't take being incorrect or mistaken, huh? You've not addressed one point I have made, but have only engaged in ad hominem attacks. At least I was able to express myself in an articulate manner without resorting to profanity, unlike yourself.

Why have you not attacked others (like P-Man, among others) for not posting under their name, huh, Big Boy? Your empty thinking resounds throughout Ex-Land.

Comprende?

BB

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 11:57:19 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Bouncing Betty
Subject: Look Who's Talking
Message:
You mean Powerman isn't his real name? Wow.

Actually, you have a good point. If someone, anyone, is not truly fearful about being known for who they are around here, or worried about being in danger from revealing who they are, or wants to stay anonymous for very personal reasons like Susan did for a time and then came out, God bless her, then I see no reason for anonymity...except for the fact that somone who remains anonymous is not personally accountable for their words, which makes it real easy to spout whatever and walk away, like a dog off a leash pooping wherever it has the urge.

You were saying?

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 21:38:03 (GMT)
From: Bouncing Betty
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Bigotry Towards Premies
Message:
Shp:

You've got one goddamned big nerve telling me to leave and come back when I use my real name, particularly when you're the interloper here. As an ex, I have just as much right, if not more, to visit this site, than you as a premie do. Bigotry is bigotry, not a tanning and/or care contest. Your comments appear reasonable until you hit your limit of honesty and then you blow fetid hot air trying to obfuscate the issue. To forestall the inevitable comment that I am not honest because I use a moniker, it's my comments which are honest. Better to use a moniker and be honest, than to use my real name and be dishonest, to both the exes here and to yourself, just as you do. Don't ever try to tell me, or anyone who posts here, to not come to this site. It's not yours to police. Go over to enjoyinglife.org and goosestep your way around there. I haven't come across any criteria in the guidelines here where it says that using a moniker is proof of paranoia, danger or not deserving of being taken seriously.

You might be sincere, but you surely are not clear.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:42:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bouncing Betty
Subject: Bias is natural and good
Message:
Betty,

First, as you might now know, Shp actually doesn't hide his ID. He's Sanford Pass. Be sure to look him up next time you're in Dreamland.

But as for 'bias', isn't that a GOOD thing? Saves you from re-inventing the wheel every day. I'm biased talking with premies. I enter the discussion expecting them to be cowardly and evasive. However -- and here's the balancing act -- I have to be ever alert for 'evidence to the contrary', as they say in the law. When a premie ever shows a little sincerity in a discussion -- and it does happen a bit. Dog, for example, is better than most -- I have be able to respond fairly. Credit where it's due and all that.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 19:05:43 (GMT)
From: Bouncing Betty
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bias is natural and good
Message:
Jim:

I 'hear' you on the bias stuff and know what you mean by the evidence to the contrary--kind of where premies vague out at critical junctures of a discussion. I was responding to Shp's 'Reply to Mike' above where he said, 'Call it bigotry, bias, bullshit, whatever.' Although it's somewhat off-topic, I think it's important to not minimize bigotry, because while bigotry is bullshit, bullshit is not necessarily bigotry.

I know Sandy doesn't hide his identity (like I do), and give him credit in that regard for leading the premie charge into Ex-Land.

BB

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:27:22 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Bigotry Towards ex- Premies
Message:
You say:

Hey Bouncing Betty, are you Bill Burke doing cyber-drag on this sunny Sunday morning? Just want to keep the initials intact?
Or if not, who are you? Why the anonymity? I respect your right to privacy, but I wonder how you expect me to take you seriously if you can't even identify yourself? Are you paranoid or do you really think you would be in some sort of danger by revealing who you are?

Are you telling us who you are? Is Shp your name?
Can we take you seriously?
Are you paranoid for some reason and you do not want to reveal your name?

You lost me. Usually premies under the spell of devotion do not make sense.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:35:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Ahem,.... SB?
Message:
Sorry but Shp actually does deserve credit for being one of the only premies who actually has revealed his identity. He's Sanford Pass.

By the way, I've gotten a real kick out of so much you've said here. Don't think I've said hi yet. Howdy.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:35:07 (GMT)
From: SB/akaShifting
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Don't fit anymore
Message:
Hi Jim:

You said:

By the way, I've gotten a real kick out of so much you've said here. Don't think I've said hi yet. Howdy.

I don't understand complety what you tried to say, because what you wrote can be interpreted in more than one way.

If your statement was said because you see me as being ironic because I reminded Shp he was accusing an ex of not revealing his/her identity and he himself was posting as Shp, as to protect his, and I wasn't giving my name either, that can be explained.

I didn't know him and I do not read every post, so now I know who he is because of you.

If it sounds ironic that I do not to post with my real name, or ironic also because you don't know who SB is, in a few posts far bellow I posted as SB/Shiting, and said in a post that I no longer wanted to post as Shifting because the 'change' in my life has been made. I am no longer 'shifting'. :-) SB are my initials and for personal reasons I do not wish to post yet with my real name, and believe me, when it happens is going to be very liberating. BTW, some of the forum administradors and participants know my real name, have my address and have my phone number, if you doubt that I am an ex. Pcs don't show emotions, so maybe you were just kidding. Usually I'm lazy to write but your post incited me to go fishing.

I take this opportunity to tell you that I am glad to see you back. Your 'all over' contributions against the lard are deeply appreciated!

That said, I hope I explained myself. How did you said that Jimmy?

SB

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 03:27:08 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ding Dong
Message:
Shifting/Sifting/me/SB/S/susan/Irene/Rob

Lider=leader, doh!

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 04:02:12 (GMT)
From: no, you r Rob
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Ding on you?
Message:
aha
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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 04:11:21 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: this is stupid
Message:
Lay off SB.
She is an ex and is for real.
Why are you doing this?
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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 04:40:38 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Yes, exactly, Ger
Message:
Why in the world are you doing this?
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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 22:24:32 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: SB/akaShifting
Subject: Don't fit anymore
Message:
You fit here just fine.
I love your posts and always appreciate new ex's for
their fresh take on it all. I'm not
saying your posts don't have a lot of thought behaind them
what I am saying is the emotion comes through and
it is refreshing.

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 01:07:34 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I find a deep enjoyment
Message:
from coming here. :)

The language darling, the language! Not easy.

I would like to talk with you in the purple room, one of this days.

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 01:36:30 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: I find a deep enjoyment
Message:
Oh yeah. The purple room.
Sounds like a nice safe break. whew. I need one.
Right now I am working if you can believe it.
One of the dangers of my profession, it's way too
easy to goof off and come over here.

I'll do that SB.

we do have a silly language. I knew French fairly well
as a child. But don't remember it. It really messes me
here where I live, always mix up what Spanish I have
managed to pick up with what little French I remember!

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 02:49:48 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Practice French
Message:
in the French Forum! :)
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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 21:46:57 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SB/akaShifting
Subject: Oh, I was just saying 'hi'
Message:
SB,

Sorry for the confusion. Really, I was just saying 'hello'.

Wedding's in an hour -- kids running all over the place -- gotta go.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 17:56:03 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Bigotry Towards Premies
Message:
Dear Sandy,
'I don't think Maharaji 'loves' money. I thnk he thoroughly enjoys it and could do without it if the situation arose. And he would figure out a way to get some if he needed it.'
I don't know if the word is loves, certainly he loves to spend it, funding his lavish lifestyle by over charging for videos and other crap souvenirs and the donations pouring from premies. I do not believe that he could live without it, money. I think it would blow his world apart. Do you honestly think he would be oky doky with it?
I think he has a real problem relating to his devotees as well as exes, the press, his family... I think he knows he needs the money premies bring to his life but really wants to distince himself from them, the unwashed as b betty said.
I don't think it is bigotry that premies are met with here either, I don't like the nastiness but it does work for some people who come here and not for others, that is why I stick around, I have strong views about M but offer another sort of communication, less cut throat which some people, premies and exes seem to be able to relate to. It takes all kinds.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 16:45:30 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: good post robyn! (nt)_
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:14:57 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Bigotry Towards Premies
Message:
Yes, one thing you said bears witness to the reality.
For one reason or another, it does take all kinds.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:40:12 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Bigotry Towards Premies
Message:
SHP: Other than my post above, all I can say in response to your comments is that you are pulling straws. You can't win, ideologically, therefore you go for the 'sympathy' vote of bigotry. SHP, as a human being we have no arguement with how you look or any other thing which you cannot change. We DO have an arguement with your IDEAS; THAT, my friend, IS NOT BIGOTRY (even in THIS pc world we live in). NO ONE has ever successfully argued that disagreement-with-ideas is tantamount to bigotry. I don't think anyone would be that stupid, quite frankly!

In keeping with what I just said about ideas, in reference to your statement, '....Meanwhile, in another part of the world, a premie has had a storybook experience of Knowledge and Maharaji and feels great.....' I think the operative word is 'storybook,' with M as your Prince Charming. He's a storybook character, shp, not real! The main difference is that Prince Charming, in the story, wasn't a crook nor did he harbor/aid/abet criminals. Now M, on the other hand......

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:32:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: You think like a child, Shp
Message:
And that's not a good thing. It's disgusting. Again and again you've demonstrated a willful disregard for the truth. You deserve to get your butt kicked.

What a fool you are! 'A lot of worda and I read them all .... you know what you sound like? Someone obviously trying to not get it. Pman made some clear, obvious points that you completely sidestepped. And this garbage of yours about ex's dissing premies because of housemouther this or that? Fuck off! The issue is so much bigger and more basic. Is Maharaji a fraud or not? It all comes down to that.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:42:15 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thank you for that compliment
Message:
that I think like a child. It took me a long time to get to this simplicity. My well-wishing towards you has elicited the truth from your own mouth. Thanks.

As for the basic question, my answer is No. I do not believe that Maharaji is a fraud. Proof of something this cannot fit into your briefcase, sorry.

You are an officer of the court. You have sworn to uphold the law and be a servant of the people. Have you EVER cut a deal or been in on a deal in secret that compromised your oath if it was made public, just to expedite a case? Or ever been aware of such a deal that you said nothing about? Ever?

If so, let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.

Anything else?

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:50:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: You fell for my trap, dummy
Message:
You think I didn't know how your genitals (whatever kind they are) would engorge with that 'child' reference? That was my little gift to you, Shp. Hey, it's the Day of the Wedding! I guess we should be expecting Jesus anytime now? When he comes I'll send him upstairs to read a story to you and the kids.
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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 17:33:44 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Jim and BB
Subject: When ya dig a hole for someone
Message:
to fall into, you will fall into it yourself.

Jim responded:
'You think I didn't know how your genitals (whatever kind they are) would engorge with that 'child' reference? That was my little gift to you, Shp. Hey, it's the Day of the Wedding! I guess we should be expecting Jesus anytime now? When he comes I'll send him upstairs to read a story to you and the kids.'

Shp:
You mistakenly think that everyone (or at least myself) operates like you. You have revealed much about how you think, where you are coming from, and what your motivation is. And once busted and revealed by your own words and actions, you attempt to do a turnaround. I see you.

And what about your courtroom itches and scratches I asked you about? And what about any expeditious deals you may have been aware of that weren't totally legal, but got the job done? Anything on that for your listening audience? Or are you relying on the hope that the span of attention and interest in your game is low enough that you can run an 18-wheeler full of shit through here and hide it with the thin veil of your new stepfather's piano playing and other family artifacts.

Let those who have ears and eyes to hear and see, check out this latest line of crap from the great white north.

Note to BB:

Jim's post is a great example of the one-upmanship you were referring to.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 19:44:14 (GMT)
From: 09
Email: None
To: thread
Subject: I am prejudice against 'virus'
Message:

If I meet a Jehovah wittness at a party, and the conversation is general, I feel no prejudice. Let same Jehovah Wittness show up at my door and ask me if I like my life, or if I believe in God, -- fierce prejudice flares up.
Let same Wittness show up at my door and start rapping to my children about ANYTHING- and absolute hostility breaks loose.
Is that religious prejudice?

I am prejudice against agendas that regard anyone as prospects.
Because it violates my right to be free of such an agenda coming from someone.

Even deeper, because I egard preimies as robots for Malackys' agenda

By definition, premie does not just mean lover of M. It means that thaose who dont have missed some major point- and 'premie'
has a higher mission to save his own soul by somehow 'getting' to the unbeliever- either by putting him down for disbelief.

Doing his 'will' is under pinning every premies' heart and soul.
That is robot.

My deep prejudice against premeies is that they have a virus that coulors all conversation and their own ability to interact.

If they come to this forum, it is as 'premies'- and they are exrcising thier missionary program.

09

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 11:37:13 (GMT)
From: goodvibes
Email: None
To: norman
Subject: goodvibes
Message:
good vibes.com
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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 11:47:37 (GMT)
From: selena
Email: None
To: u
Subject: goodvibes
Message:
how many ex's does it take 2 screw
in a light bulb?...........none..it's
already screwed in.net/http
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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 19:51:54 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: selena
Subject: whoever you are
Message:
Things could get VERY confusing if you insist on
that username. And I don't want to change mine.
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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 06:19:27 (GMT)
From: rupee murdoch
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: donner ,books,amtext
Message:
To anyone, esp. Joey and Roger...

To respond to a few questions-
The donner book dealings were done in the mid to late 80's, not the 70's. He didn't intend to take on amtext, but was put in that position, or given that opportunity to do so in the 1985-1988 time frame, or maybe even later than that...It definitely was not in the 70's...

He did present an extremely real challenge at the time, as chuck nathan and the boys saw the premie support begin to bolt from amtext in some pretty real numbers...his threatened law suit stopped the uprising fairly quickly.
Donner definitely did not give any money to m, as he was against m by that time...like i said before, he wasn't trying to topple amtext, but rather trying to make his own fortune in the book business,but i am sure he didn't mind taking their business away in a competitive business sense either...

Amtext currently employs many non-premies, who know nothing of m's involvement with the company. A few have suspected something at different times and have left, usually to do the same business for another book company like follett or arkansas books...
I believe chuck nathan formally signed the company over to m a few years ago and is an employee of it,and ceo, while m actually owns it.
I would guess amtext takes in about 20 million volume per year, with about 2-3 million ending up in m's bank account. These are educated guesses, but fairly accurate.
Amtext also has an office in London, and is trying to open up new book deals with eatern european countries. Henry Rief, the original trainer in the US, works there..
Current work force in the US is about 200-300 buyers, probably half are non-premies, half are premies. They range from very part time to full time workers....

Let me know if you have other questions....

Rupee

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 09:52:22 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: rupee murdoch
Subject: London office
Message:
Is that Dick Regan's business ?

Selling books to Russian universities ?

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 06:54:41 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: rupee murdoch
Subject: Thanks Added to Best and Corp
Message:
Thanks, rupee.

I've added this post to the ***Best*** in the 'Severance Packages for PAMs' post.

I've also add this post to the Amtext section of the Maharaji's Corporate Shenanigans. Sounds like Mr. Donner was a modern day Robin Hood who probably didn't even have to resort to being a stick-up man as it would appear that he only offered a better deal to the buyers. Sounds like free enterprise and real competition to me. Too bad that Amtext has a monopoly on its buyers.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 08:28:45 (GMT)
From: who is chuck nathan
Email: None
To: this thread
Subject: name sounds familir
Message:
what else does he do?
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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 06:16:15 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: way off topic
Message:
And what else is new?
I pssted this on AG as well. Pissed off what can I say? ( i did try to fix some typos haha)
===============
Thanks lots whoever you are for all the URL's and info
on the highschool hacker game shit called Proxomitron. I'll give it it's credit. I can cut backgrounds and whatever that crash shit on my machine - ha funny thing it doesn't crash my NT machine so it's useless on my MAC,

and worse yet I am getting email from people that I don't know and can't possibly trace.
Thanks so much.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 07:24:57 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Selene
Subject: You've got to be kidding! RTFM
Message:
Proxomitron System Requirements

The Proxomitron is a Win32 program designed to run under Windows 95. However, it should also work with Windows 98 and newer versions of Windows NT without trouble. Unfortunately, it won't run under 16 bit versions of Windows like Windows 3.1 or Windows for Workgroups (even with Win32 extentions - sorry).

Note: I have not been able to fully test the program on all platforms, if you experience problems running the Proxomitron in a non-Windows 95 environment please let me know.

I assume that you are not really running this on a Mac. Sure, it crashes Win98 once in awhile. Welcome to the world of computing.

And from Support

Proxomitron's 'Active connection' count never returns to zero sometimes causing 'kernel32' crashes - what's the problem?

A likely cause for this is a port conflict with another program on your system. Proxomitron uses port 8080 by default and if some other program does also (some have reported ICQ might) problems will result. This is easy to fix however. Under Proxomitron's config dialog you can change the port to anything you like. Just pick a number not used by another program (it's usually best to use a number between 1024 and 32000). Be sure to change to the new port number in your browser's proxy setup too.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:09:09 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Roger RTF-post
Message:
I said it's useless on my MAC!!!! that's what I mrsny, I needed something there on the Mac to filter out stuff andit won't run there so it's useless there

and since the NT computer doesn't have the problems with backgrounds etc I don't care about Proxomitron there.

I can see how my post was not easy to understand though. No probem.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 08:32:18 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: way way way offtopic
Message:
She couldn't possibly be experiencing grade-school style pranks from forum members emailing her anonymously with the aid of Proxomitron. I couldn't imagine such a scenario. Disrespect for forum members-perish the thought!

And those system problems- with all those posts on computing, it's odd we were'nt warned about kernel32 problems (which my VAR's advise me to avoid like the plague).

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 07:11:58 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Runamok
Subject: what the fuck are you saying
Message:
Runamok, I cannot for the life of me understand what you are really saying here. Really, I don't have a clue. Is this supposed to be funny? Is this serious? Kernel32 problems and your VARS? What the fuck? Are you funning us or are you displaying more of your ignorance?

And what kind of nasty shit are you accusing me of here? Or is this another one of your botched attempts at humor that only you can understand? Run, you ain't funny at all ever. So, don't even try, ok?

Runamok, you are the most confusing and disruptive persona on these forums. You're only about a two-trick pony where all you can do is either talk shit and start fights and hold long term grudges or from the other side of your filthy mouth you talk about a kinder and gentler world with strict guidelines. Sounds like you are a very frustrated authoritarian control freak with a serious inferiority complex.

Basically, I don't see what you really have to offer, Run. I usually avoid all of your posts except the one where you are goading and attacking me. If I had any sense I'd avoid those too.

Run, wake me when you leave. Yeah, you sure would like it if your antagonists left. Those bad boys who made fun of you on the playground and called you all those names and flamed and flamed. No, you don't flame. You don't start flame fights. Run is good. Fire bad.

Run, I keep reading your sentiment that you want to tar and feather me and run me out of town on a rail, but I will not leave just for that simple fact alone. No, Run, you ain't gonna run me out of here. No way, not in a million years. I don't care that I'm a middle aged old man getting close to fifty years old and you are still a young sock stuffed stud muffin. I can just see the day when I leave and you'd declare yourself benevolent Czar and you would herald your great victory over the evildoers. Boring. Yawn. You're fast asleep and dreaming, Run. Please go back to the wading pool now. Thank you. Bye, bye.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:40:06 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Thanks Runamok
Message:
I was really tired and angry at whoever emailed me and thought I'd send them a msg. And also figure the mysterious 'Cerberus' who posted the URL's for Proxomitron was still lurking about.

Didnt mean for it to escalate and I hope it doesn't - it's not that important.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 19:08:32 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Selene
Subject: Spam Email - We all get it
Message:
Unless the actual content of your spam email is of a personal nature that only someone from the forums would know about then the spam email is probably the usual spam email that we all get from time to time.

And Spammers make great effort to conceal their identity because that is the nature of spam.

If you suspect you are getting spam email as a result of your forum participation then the answer to the problem is to never publish your email address.

Also, when you register for something on a website and they absolutely insist on having an email address you might use a Yahoo or a Hotmail or someother throw-away email address to avoid getting spammed at your real address.

Does Proxomitron grab your email address and phone home with it? I don't know, but I very much doubt that to be the case. If they are doing that it is very unethical and sooner or later someone would find that out and warnings would be posted at many of the privacy sites on the net.

As it stands many of the privacy websites on the net have links to Proxomitron. Such a privacy website is highly regarded JUNKBUSTERS.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 19:30:32 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: I know
Message:
It's OK really. I'm sure since you have a site up you are more used to this. I actually don't get spam email that is forum related and the text was forum related. I tried to let it go but just had one of those moments.
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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:16:19 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Selene
Subject: Spam - the lesson for everyone
Message:
Yes, getting some cowardly piece of garbage in your email that says that someone has an overly keen interest in your personal life is very disturbing.

I have actually received very little spam email as a result of having my address posted on my site. Oh, oh, here's the invitation being broadcast to millions.

I have received only a small handful of emails from annoyed premies. Most of the premie fan mail is actually quite benign and respectfully expresses their opinion.

In general most of the spam email I receive is of the nature of porno or making a fast buck or how I can accept credit cards on my website.

Again, the lesson here is if you are concerned about having people know your email address then do not ever post it. Yes, your rights and privacy are infringed, but what else can you do?

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 01:17:20 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Spam - the lesson for everyone
Message:
I'm amazed Roger. With all the stuff you put out there and you've only gotten some benign & respectful emails? Jesus, I had premies sending emails calling me a sick, revolting psycho and that was without even posting. Of course, I did get some benign, respectful stuff too-they're praying for me, hallelujah.
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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 02:59:15 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Sean
Subject: The Worst Email that I got
Message:
With all the stuff you put out there and you've only gotten some benign & respectful emails?

Well, uh, er, that's from the Premies. From the Ex-Premies it's different.

Here is the worse thing I've gotten from the Enemy:

From: quasipremie@hotbot.com
To: drek@oz.net
Subject: censorshop
Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 1:08 PM

Yo Drek, you have a nice little censorshop going there at XPO. M. taught you boys a lot. Like how to dread dissent. Twits.

Received: from spf02n09e0.serdac.fiu.edu (mail.fiu.edu [131.94.68.193])

mail.fiu.edu is Florida International University i Miami.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:26:53 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: And for women it's worse
Message:
Although I only portray a woman in my Big Hair Drag Show Revue and Just Ask Rogina About Rogaine, I know very little about what it is to be a female on the Internet or anywhere for that matter.

I suspect that many women on the Internet may use non-female names to avoid unwanted attention from the brutish males.

And, getting into my favorite topic of Rob Anderson Cerby possibly being Andrea Robins (andrearob@aol.com) I suggested that Andrea might have already used Rob Anderson as an alias for the purpose of being able to roam the cyberworld without attracting the unwanted attention of overly eager males. Fairly common, I think.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:21:45 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: and now THIS good vibes shit
Message:
Just noticed some crap posted at 4 am ( assure you all
I was knocked on my ass on meds) from someone calling themselves Selena and the joke even sucked!

So you are right about posting an email address.
Not such a good idea I guess but it's a done deal
at this point. But what can one do about idiots
who pretend to be you or me and try to make us look
bad by posting here? really, any ideas?
I don't have any.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:33:53 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Selene
Subject: Yes! Cowards instilling fear
Message:
Exactly!

The effect is still the same - instilling fear, disruption, and confusion - whether it's just a rogue effort by someone playing around and yucking it up with their mates at the local pub and getting home at 7:00 a.m. or it is part of an organized and sanctioned effort we don't really know.

Hey, what's Raja Ji doing these days? Wasn't he in charge of the WPC back in London when they bugged the DLM offices or whatever they bugged?

Have these people really changed that much?

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:36:58 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Yes! Cowards instilling fear
Message:
Yes he may have been given something to do finally.
It would be right up there with his non skill set.
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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 21:16:52 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Selene
Subject: Ah, the wide awake Selene
Message:
Selene, when you're on you are ON. Great line, non skill set for Raja Ji. Just about have to feel for the little guy.
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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 01:36:58 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Raja Ji
Message:
The last time I saw Raja Ji was when he showed M's web site to the premies where I live. He didn't seem very trilled about it, he didn't show the infamous copyright page. He mentioned that he said to (bugged) M that 'we need a web presence'. M gave in and on his site, he makes it out like the thought just popped into his head. Raja Ji did not seem like a happy camper, he seemed ill at ease. Some call him M's 'ambassador'.
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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:40:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Ah, Runamok, Man of Peace!
Message:
If you're saying what I think you're saying, Run, you better go over to your Preemie ex-Premie site and wash your mouth out with soap.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but sounds like you're accusing Roger of something or other. Hey, I'm just getting up, so please forgive me if I'm wrong.

Problem is, I'm not, am I?

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 19:38:16 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim Heller, Lord of Denial
Message:
Way, way, way off topic but, this ain't RE.

Why don't you publish all of the names that Drek has posted under as a public service, Jim?

The we could discuss what would be appropriate caveats for posting software (software associated with hacking).

Isn't that the game you like to play with me?

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:07:38 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Get the hell out of here, Run
Message:
You're absolutely disgusting, Runamok!

It would appear that you've been absent from the Big Forum for a number of days now, but when there is the slightest opportunity to take a shot at me or Jim here you are right on schedule.

Runamok, you are a total hypocrite. I know that you cannot see that, but others do.

And exactly what the hell are you talking about anyway?

What names?

And how about where I asked you not to post personal information about me that someone outed in a moment of anger? And what did you do? You kept posting it and posting it again in your moment of hostility and flaming.

Runamok, you are a total hypocrite. I know that you cannot see that, but others do.

Runamok, your posts are frequently uncomprehensible and more often than not I have a really difficult time understanding your stupid little posts other than knowing that you are accusing me of something.

Runamok, you are a total hypocrite. I know that you cannot see that, but others do.

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 02:00:32 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Don't Lie, Roger/Barney, etc.
Message:
You're talking about the info that Gerry was posting (funny how you don't bother to mention that fact). I was concerned enough to write to you about it (the same info you had posted YOURSELF several times).

Leave it, hotstuff. Go trace Cerby and post about it.

I guess if anyone but your personal guru of rationalism suggests you are being irrational you won't listen anyway. You'd proably try to say that calling someone 'irrational' is a deeply personal insult equivalent to flaming.

When you take a break from posting ad infinitum about anagrams that may or may not be Rob, and about the various ins and outs of hacker software that can mess with the computer's kernel, post a list of all the names you have used this month for us.

It might be nice for people to know when entire threads you start are actually people you make up. Cerebus, indeed!

Oh and I guess you missed my posts about Miragey. Sorry, if 'not having posted for a number of days' as you falsely describe me, means not having posted to myself under different pseudonyms, then you might consider rewording your statement.

Isn't Rob the guy that Jim was all in favor of?

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 02:38:52 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Runamok
Subject: FUCK OFF! RUNAMOK
Message:
Runamok, I really have a difficult time reading anything you say.

Your post(s) do not deserve a response. PERIOD.

FUCK OFF!
With Your
Confusion
and
Hypocrisy
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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 03:57:42 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Roger and the Fuckoffs
Message:
I guess if middle-aged men could be readmitted to elementary school... you'd be one-up with all those curse words.
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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 04:20:48 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Runamok
Subject: They're calling me a bad names
Message:
I can see you dancing now to Rod Stewart's 'Forever Young' you twisted demented hypocrite. All these stupid insults about being middle aged. Come on, FunBoy. Oh, it hurts so much. You must be young and strong and handsome still. You are not getting old. God, Runamok, you are so lame. I can't believe the stuff you come back with. It's completely juvenile, completely unsophisticated.

IT'S A LAMEFEST TALKING WITH YOU! A COMPLETE AND UTTER JOKE! YOU CANNOT HELP LOOKING LIKE A FOOL EVERYTIME. SAVE YOURSELF THE EMBARRASSMENT AND STOP WHILE YOU'RE AHEAD.

Oh, my gawd, the out and out evilness of the Fuck Off!

Run, you fight like a little girl. 'Teacher, Mrs. Shapiro, they said the F-Word. They called me a bad name again.' I almost feel sorry for you and your pettiness and just how pathetic you are.

Just stop it, Run. Go back to the wading pool and convince everyone of the importance of Guidelines or some other theoretical stuff where you don't have anyone who will trounce your stupid ass.

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 04:28:34 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: C'mon Rog
Message:
List all your screennames on your website. We deserve to know all the threads where you were talking to yourself.

It gets by a lot of people when you do that, you know.

By the way, I much enjoyed this line of yours about me:
'I really have a difficult time reading anything you say.'

Really makes you think.

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 06:53:29 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Runamok
Subject: LISTEN YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE
Message:
RUNAMOK,

YOU ARE RELYING ON YOUR FAVORITE TACTIC OF AVOIDING THE ISSUE AT HAND BY CHANGING THE TOPIC AND GOING ON THE OFFENSIVE.

YES, ALL CAPS MEANS I'M YELLING AT YOU, RUNAMOK. I THINK THAT YELLING MIGHT BE THE ONLY THING YOU ARE CAPABLE OF UNDERSTANDING OR THE ONLY WAY OF GETTING THROUGH YOUR THICK NUMBSKULL.

SHOULD I ANSWER YOUR NON-ISSUE NONE-OF-YOUR-BUSINESS QUESTION THAT YOU ARE CLEARLY USING TO AVOID THE ISSUE THAT IS BEING ADDRESSED TO YOU?

I SAY NOT. I SAY THAT I WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO SO EASILY DIVERT THE DISCUSSION FOR THE PURPOSE OF ALLOWING YOU TO GOLLUM-LIKE SLITHER AND SNEAK AWAY, YOU SHALLOW BOTTOM FEEDING SCUM SUCKING LOWLIFE.

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 17:41:51 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: The Assholes LIVE at the Forum
Message:
Their gutteral shrieks and shouts stun and amaze the spectators, but bring your earplugs. The decimating 145 decibel message, complete with unintelligible vocals nevertheless will fascinate the psychologist/anthropologist in anyone. Why would these grown men insist on a plethora of schoolyard games?

Tune in for late-breaking news on the hour.

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 04:46:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Run, why don't YOU come clean?
Message:
Run,

Did you or did you not try to provoke yet another fight with Roger today?

See, if you asked me the same question -- was I trying to provoke you, I'd say yes. I saw you trying to incte something and, pimple that you are, I thought I'd give you a bit of a squeeze. But then I never pretended to be beyond a little frisson.

So, come on, Run, what's the game, man? Can anybody play?

Oh, and by the way, what in the world are you accusing Roger of this time? Posting under a whole bunch of different names trying to confuse people? Is that it?

Great wedding by the way. Sorry you missed it.

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 06:39:52 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, wake me when you leave.
Message:
I get more kicks from scholarly discussion, which at one point I thought you were capable of. I respond to false accusations in order to set the record straight, but it's a bore.

I noticed you referring to Dawkins as pop, Jim. When I originally described him as 'primarily a pedagogue' you went ballistic. What happened? Experts get to you? Or did you sellout?

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 16:28:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: R u afraid to answer, Run?
Message:
This always happens with you. Really, you're too much.

Well I'm not biting this time.

Later.

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 17:35:03 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Try reading the reply, Cap'n Q
Message:
Becausee I absolutely did answer your question. I get more kicks from a scholarly conversation. Sorry you can't opt to request to treat me as a hostile witness to get my answer into the perfect yessir/nossir form due to a person of your social rank. Nonetheless, it is an honest endeavor by a competent intelligence
to deal with the question. Surely kicks corresponds to frisson, no?

But wait! What about my previously stated question:
'I noticed you referring to Dawkins as pop, Jim. When I originally described him as 'primarily a pedagogue' you went ballistic. What happened? Experts get to you? Or did you sellout?'

And don't you think your 'miss you at the wedding' comment is kinda cryptic'? There is life beyond this forum for all of us hopefully.

Do wake me when you leave.

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 17:47:19 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: You're lying, Runanduck
Message:
You didn't asnwer shit. My question was simple:

were you trying to provoke Roger?

Why can't you answer that? I think the answer's obvious. The fact is you were and you're just too gutless to admit it.

So what's the topic today over on your Recent Ex forum, Run? Guidelines? Mutual respect? Flaming? Authoritarian exe's trying to bully free-thinkers like yourself?

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Date: Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 05:18:12 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Your M.O. - My M.O.
Message:
I guess if I were you I would be enchanted by my own reflection too. But I'm not. You've got to stop mixing us up like this!
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Date: Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 13:59:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Bizarre......... just bizarre
Message:
Run,

I'm beginning to wonder about your mental health here. Really. You pick fights here like you did this time, but of course you refuse to discuss that. Instead, you try to get a rise out of me whatever way you can and then you pontificate about how you're such a martyr over on your RE forum!

Too much. I have no idea what your trip is. Do you?

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:12:03 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ah, Runamok, Man of Peace!
Message:
I don't see an accusation. A little sarcasm but not any accusing.
This whole stupid thread should be deleted anyway. My writing was not clear and what I was really compleaning about was some email I received that I couldn't trace.
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Date: Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 17:43:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Honestly, Selene?
Message:
Selene,

I know we all have our friends and 'allegiances' and everything but let's be honest, shall we? What Run posted was this:

She couldn't possibly be experiencing grade-school style pranks from forum members emailing her anonymously with the aid of Proxomitron. I couldn't imagine such a scenario. Disrespect for forum members-perish the thought!
And those system problems- with all those posts on computing, it's odd we were'nt warned about kernel32 problems (which my VAR's advise me to avoid like the plague).

Clearly, this was targetted at Roger! Who else in the world could Run have possibly been talking about having the familiarity with Proximitron to misuse it? 'Sarcasm'? Yeah, it's sarcastic alright. It's a sarcastic accusation that Roger might be spamming you.

Now what's so absolutely nuts is that Run, as usual, doesn't have the guts to admit the obvious truth, that he was indeed trying to provoke Roger, yet again. Instead, he posts the kind of irrelevant shit he does about anything and everything except that simple issue -- was he trying to start something again, yes or no?

You know this is exactly what he did before when he accused me of posting email contents without consent. Gerry responded that Run had done that very thing to him in spades. When asked if that were true, Run refused to answer. Instead he seemed to enjoy watching Gerry and I try to get him to answer the question. Once we called him the inevitable names he really had something to cry to mommy about.

Now, here's where it get surrealistic. Run then goes over to the super-duper secret Preemie Ex-Premie forum and bitches about what a martyr he is, standing up to name-calling and everything!

Okay, Selene, tell me what part of the picture I'm missing. It's got to be something. Either that or Run is either nuts or crazy or maybe just one very pathetic attention-seeker.

Sorry to put you on the spot but I think it's important that one of Run's friends take a good look at this and comment honestly. We don't need these kinds of games, especially from someone who's made such a big deal about how far beyond games he himself is. It's bizarre, ludicrous and .... shit, I don't know. Weird?

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Date: Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 17:48:31 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Honestly, Selene?
Message:
No Jim I didn't read it that way. Honestly.
But since I was not looking at it as an accusation to Roger I didn't see it as one.
Wasn't looking at it from the perspective of the raging war going on between the 3 of YOU at the time. It's all a matter of perspective and so, I was seeing something entirely different, which I thought I explained to all, and in personal email as well. I'm tired of these fights. You can email me if you want.
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Date: Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 21:29:08 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Goddamit Jim, quit jumping the gun...
Message:
You are making a huge assumption when you think that Funboy's passive-aggression was aimed at Roger. I've held back on expounding my theory about this but here's what Funnybung won't tell you:

This

She couldn't possibly be experiencing grade-school style pranks from forum members emailing her anonymously with the aid of Proxomitron. I couldn't imagine such a scenario. Disrespect for forum members-perish the thought! And those system problems- with all those posts on computing, it's odd we were'nt warned about kernel32 problems (which my VAR's advise me to avoid like the plague).

Is aimed at me as much as Roger.

Here's why: In a recent post, Runnystuff tells me I'm pushing fifty, and that I was at the level of an elementary school student, using just these words. And yes perhaps I have indeed shown some disrespect towards Mr. Amok so that part fits. And the Funster knows I'm running Proxomitron.

But wait, then there's that stuff about posting on computer problems, I didn't do that so, never mind.

At least I didn't jump the gun this time, did I?

You student and syncophant,

GErry the Jim Wannabe but aint so smart so I can't do it (TM)

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Date: Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 21:35:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Ah, grasshopper .....(this space for rent)........
Message:
You know, Ger, you could be right, little one. I only assumed otherwise because a) the post was to Roger; and b) Roger's the guy who introduced Proximitron in the first place and one but not both parts of Runanduck's post suggested that Roger gave us the program without telling us that it had some stability / security problems.

But, alas, you may be right. Therefore, I'm insisting that this thread be erased immediately!!

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Date: Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 20:09:46 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: oh JIM??????????????
Message:
Roger's the guy who introduced Proximitron in the first place

I know you don't think much of AG
BUT in this very thread I wrote to Roger
that Cerberus first introduced Proxomitron on AG, he gave out 2 URL's which I bookmarked. Had it downloaded and was playing with it when the news hit F5.

so that is how I know.

amidst the usual silliness there is some stuff that comes along there, once in a while. (usually when there's fights hahaha)

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Date: Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 18:55:39 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Mahatma Jim
Message:
OK, Jim. Explain this to me. Gerry posts that I'm FA of Recent Exes. Where did he get the info from? He was sure. Did he break into that forum uninvited?

Let me know, Oh Paragon of Virtue..

And as far as ancient history, it's convenient to skip Ger, as webmaster deleting my responses to his personal attacks on me (an exemplary use of a webmaster's authority).

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Date: Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 21:13:16 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Funamok you fucking weirdo I'll tell you one more
Message:
time:

OK, Jim. Explain this to me. Gerry posts that I'm FA of Recent Exes. Where did he get the info from? He was sure. Did he break into that forum uninvited?

No, I didn't break into your little fiefdom, shit for brains, and I was TOLD you were the FA by a member and NO, I am not going to reveal who that person was. Unlike you Funboy, some of us know when to keep our mouths shut and when to speak up.

Let me know, Oh Paragon of Virtue..

And as far as ancient history, it's convenient to skip Ger, as webmaster deleting my responses to his personal attacks on me (an exemplary use of a webmaster's authority).

OK asshole for the last time: I deleted that entire thread because I didn't like what I said. I don't remember a word of your 'response' and for me your answer was completely irrelevant. Imagine that, you self important, pompous, small minded, stupid, petty ass bleating little prick.

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Date: Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 21:27:57 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Herr Ger
Message:
Ahh.. but you deleted my post and only then deleted the thread as an afterthought. Too bad I couldn't delete your email from AG.

This is the same email that you (chronologically):
1) acknowledged as yours
-then-
2) claimed I had edited
-then-
3) claimed I had fabricated
-then-
4) acknowledged a weakness in 'long term memory'
(i.e., that you had lied about it)

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Date: Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 21:42:06 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: What's taking you so long, Run?
Message:
Run,

I'm home sick today so I can keep checking the page between calls. Look how fast you are to follow up on an irrelevant topic which you've rasied and which you think reflects well on you (Gerry's alleged misuse of your email) but how slow you are to reply to my question which is actually what we were talking about (whether or not you were trying to start a fight with Roger, accusing him of spamming Selene).

I think it's even funnier that the last time this happened, when you were complaining about my posting something I'd received in email you refused to answer whether or not you'd done the same thing. Remember?

And funnier still is the fact that you're over on your Recent Ex forum whining about how everyone flames you all the time.

Anyway, enough of that: were you trying to pick a fight with Roger or not?

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Date: Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 21:58:09 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The Drudge Report Rears it Ugly Heads
Message:
Lemme see if I can get this straight. You're breaking in to RE but Gerry would never do such a thing.

Talk to yourselves, gotta run.

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Date: Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 22:03:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Evasion, evasion, evasion
Message:
Run,

You're trying to talk about anything and everything here but you're afraid to answer one simple question? Do you think anyone here doesn't notice this? And now you're comparing me to a cult leader because I insist on an answer?

I don't know what to say to you. Except, perhaps, that talking with you is so much like talking with premies here.

So now what do you want? Want me to vent and call you names so you can whine about that? Make that the issue? Hell, maybe I will and maybe I won't. For now I'm trying to control myself.

But I will say this: you are by far the most devisive presence here. You're insidious and persistent. Oh, sorry about the names.

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Date: Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 21:40:28 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Seriously Funboy you need a shrink
Message:
First off Funnybung, there wasn't ANY e-mail of mine posted on AG, That should end this ridiculous conversation right there. Are you talking about the disputed contents of a telephone conversation you and I had which you later posted about on AG?

My, what a great and photographic memory you must have to recall the exact chronolgy of posts from months ago. Of course, we are expected to take your word for it.

Beyond a doubt, you are fucked up. 'I don't remember' may be a vehicle for your lies, but to me it means 'I don't remember.'

And Funboy, it's this kind of bullshit which will force me to warn anyone considering joining your little club that you are completely untrustworthy with out any honor.

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Date: Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 19:23:00 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: You really don't get it, Run
Message:
Run,

At the risk of appearing like I'm trying to teach you something, let me do just that. Today's subject is;

Evasion

In a discussion (debate or argument, it makes no difference), when one is asked a relevant question, it's beholden on one to answer that question directly. Failure to do so amounts to 'evasion'. Evasion is unacceptable.

N.B. One who has evaded a relevant question has no right trying to ask a fresh question and even less right demanding an answer.

See, I could ask you if you agree with this general 'rule' or 'guideline' but, the way you argue, there's absolutely no reason in the world to think you'd reply responsively. This makes conversation impossible. Indeed, violation of this 'guideline' is a communication-killer. It's far worse than strong language. And, too bad for you, it's a habit you seem to have. If you don't like the answer you're forced to utter, you'll try to sneak around the question. Worse, you think you're some sort of a martyr for getting balsted for doing so.

Do you understand any of this? Because if you do, I come back to my orignial question in this discussion:

Were you trying to provoke Roger when you joined the thread to post to him:

She couldn't possibly be experiencing grade-school style pranks from forum members emailing her anonymously with the aid of Proxomitron. I couldn't imagine such a scenario. Disrespect for forum members-perish the thought!
And those system problems- with all those posts on computing, it's odd we were'nt warned about kernel32 problems (which my VAR's advise me to avoid like the plague).

Be honest, Run. Honest and responsive.

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Date: Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 21:32:18 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Wow! You're like a regular Werner Erhard!!
Message:
Get what? Your pencil point in my eye?

People are literally afraid to disagree with you. Is that your idea of promoting critical thinking?

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Date: Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 22:14:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: What you fear is the truth, bud
Message:
Run,

All you have to do is answer the question. You've made such a name for yourself as Mr. Guidelines, Mr. Calm, Polite Conversation and all that but look what you do? You provoke people like you did Roger here (or was it Gerry?)! Am I missing something?

As for me, all I'm doing, Run, is insisting on an answer. If you call that bullying, fine, I'm a bully.

Honestly, do you have any idea what you look like here? Like do you think there's actually anyone reading this thread who doesn't think you should say whether or not you were trying to start something? When was the last time you were accused of spamming someone with anonymous email?

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Date: Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 07:35:30 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks, it's been a lot of fun as usual.
Message:
Don't go reading everything you want to imagine I've said into what I'm saying because I won't bite.

Later, Mahatma Ji...

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Date: Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 13:18:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runanduck
Subject: Your game sucks, Run.
Message:
You're every bit as evasive as the worst premie, Run. I don't know what your trip is but it's sick.
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Date: Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 20:03:15 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Your Ruse Blues
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 00:07:00 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Fitting punishments for Rawat
Message:
Some fitting sentences for Prem Pal Rawat (aka 'Maharaji', 'Guru Maharaj Ji', 'Perfect Master', 'Lord of the Universe' ...) for crimes against humanity:

(note: Satpal is Prem's oldest brother, also The Master)

1. He must obey the Agya of Mahatma David Smith, now speaking on the authority of Satpal.

2. He must kiss the ass feet of Son of Satpal every day and whenever asked. Ok, maybe his ass too. Also must clean said feet.

3. He must spend the rest of his life in one of Satpal's ashrams, sleeping on the floor, assigned to cleaning toilets (or whatever they have) and floors, making ghee for the arti tray, and other menial tasks. No exercise allowed, no conjugal visits, no mail privileges, no sexual or personal relations, no cigarettes or alcohol, no speaking unless asked to praise Satpal and Son of Satpal. Subsistence diet (eat to live). Will be chastised by David Smith if caught masturbating. Can go outside the ashram only if permitted and accompanied by David Smith, who will give him satsang.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 02:09:07 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Notes on above
Message:
Notes on above message

1. He must kiss the ass feet of Son of Satpal
should read
He must kiss the ass feet of Son of Satpal

2. David Smith is not really one of Satpal's Mahatmas.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 02:32:44 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: G
Subject: No need for Satpal
Message:
He should be made to listen to regular seminars from Jim Heller about current evolutionary theory and then given a written exam at the end of each week to see if he's absorbed anything.

In between Jim's seminars, Maharaji can come and clean my house and listen to me ramble on about how I've forgiven him and that I understand how he was forced into this trip and he tried to make the best of it. I will also lecture him on how money and power amount to nothing in the scheme of things and how appreciation of other people is more important.

Thanks Mr G for a great and funny post. I wonder if Maharaji and Son of Satpal have ever met?

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 04:38:56 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Sir Dave/G
Subject: No need for Satpal
Message:
And he shall have to wear yucky Value Village clothing and operate on no sleep for weeks at a time in which he does 'service' building stages and planes, and sleeps in a tent outside the residence. And he shall beathe the fumes of harmful chemicals causing liver toxicity as he performs said service.

And he shall be be forced to separate from his children and wife because after all the truly devoted do not have attachments.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 07:15:30 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Helen
Subject: It's all a ***Best***
Message:
***Best***
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Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 20:30:45 (GMT)
From: Haldor
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: genuinely puzzled
Message:
I never gave much money, perhaps 100$ in 28 years, excluding program entry which is understandable given the cost of halls.Iwas given the techniques free. I didn't experience snot and earwax but a wonderful bliss. I got blasted by energy in darshan. Met the best people I could want to meet.M's personal life is not known to me as mine is not to him but I probably have led a more debauched life than he has,however that doesn't stop me from speaking from my heart. I live in Portugal so I don't go to any programs but occasionaly I see a video at home, which inspires me to go inside and feel the experience. I work hard,love my wife and kids, care about people, enjoy life,the breath moving through me. I also explored many other lifestyles and stopped meditating for years. I don't see him as the Lord of the universe but as an inspiring speaker.What is the problem in allowing us to live our lives in Knowledge of our free will?
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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:02:43 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Haldor
Subject: Choosing ignorance
Message:
You are no different from anyone else who wanders in here talking about how much they have gained, while choosing to remain totally ignorant about how much of that gain came at a cost to OTHER people.

You could wander into an ashram (when you felt like it) and sit your ass on a chair or plush carpet paid for by other people.

You could wander home 'blissed out' with your pockets as full as they were when you slipped your shoes off. You could buy your own shoes.

When the ashrams closed, you LOST your little base of blissful sanctuary. But you still had your home, your job, and your money. Didn't you?

That those people who were footing the bill for your free ride ended up saddled with huge bills, had no homes, had pissed away YEARS of THEIR lives underwriting your pleasant evenings and Maharaji's extravagant lifestyle, and had nothing to show for it - that's their problem, right?

You received Knowledge free because someone else was putting your inspirational fraud up in grand style. It wasn't you. He would have abandoned his 'mission' years before if he had to pay his own way through life.

You weren't molested. You don't mind. You have yours. Fuck everyone else, and continue live with your fantasies. After all, YOUR experience in life is all that matters.

You're a real piece of work, 'Haldor'. There were plenty of nicely furnished homes that became available at very low cost in Germany around 1940. You would have found yourself right at home.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 17:25:02 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Haldor
Subject: and possibly confused...
Message:
Hi Haldor,

Think about this...

You say 'I got blasted by energy in darshan.' , but a little later on you tell us: 'I don't see him as the Lord of the universe but as an inspiring speaker.'

Hmm, an inspiring speaker who can blast you with energy... What kind of mere mortal is that?

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Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 23:20:22 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Haldor
Subject: premie copmplacency
Message:
You remind me of an old friend I just spoke to for the first time in 8 years. We were both in the ashram together and propogated k for many years.

Here is part of the conversation after the initial 'hi', 'good to hear your voice' type stuff.

Me: So, I have to tell you that I'm no longer with M, in fact I think he is a bad person.

Marty: Well, we each have to live according to our own experience. I follow mine and I respect the fact that you follow yours.

Me: Have you heard about the Jagdeo stuff?
Marty: No

....(a long conversation follows where I tell him all the stuff and give him the name of an EV representative who told me that he believed that 'Jagdeo was in it up to his neck')....

Me: So how do you feel about the fact that you may be following a paedophille protector?

Marty(tone of voice lowers into sincerity mode): That's not the question. The question is what is my own experience?

Me: Actually Marty, I wasn't asking you about your experience, I was asking your thoughts and opinions about the possibility that m may really be a right sod(to put it mildly).

Marty(in very sincere voice): These things go on all over the world; it's in our nature.

Me: Ok, so tell me how do you feel about the possibility that m may have very been protecting jagdeo and others?

Marty: My experienvce is all that matters...THAT is the point.

Me: Ye Marty, I also have 'an experience' which has in fact increased since I left M...but I'm asking you as a fellow human being how you feel about having an honest critical look at m.

Marty:I know my own experience and THAT is what matters.

Me: Marty, I really love you but I have to say taht I think you're kidding yourself. You seem have given up any form of discriminatory thinking.
Tell me do you still believe m is god?

Marty: It doesn't matter what I think, it's my experience that is important

Me: Ok, ok I know you have an experience.....but do you still believe he is god?

Marty: It doesn't matter what I think, it's my experience that is important

.
.
.

And so the conversation continued.
The rest was in same ilk.

I just find it really depressing that many followers/students/premies of m have given up all human values and cannot make value judgements.

That's all for now.
Jethro

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 17:28:17 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: chilling...must read
Message:
Your conversation with this friend is one of the more profound statements about the mechanisms by which premies cope with the obvious ugliness of their master. The words have changed but the song stays the same. Don't listen to mr. mind who is trying to distract you from what is real. The concepts of mind and maya are alive and well but new words have replaced them so premies can feel they have evolved.

I was reminded of the woman whose husband beats her, 'but I love him'. I was also very much reminded of the Marolyn letter. I hated to see that letter on the net because of its very personal nature, but God did it ever illustrate how they cope with things which are threatening their belief system. Upsetting, disturbing horrible things which disrupt their view of Rawat and his perfection are labeled as drama, distraction, and what is unreal as opposed to 'that experience'. How very convenient for them anytime they need to cope with things that make Rawat look bad.

Stepford wives. Robots. Rawat turns people into soulless automatons as far as I can see.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:33:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Q for Susan
Message:
Susan,

I understand all your concerns about posting Marolyn's letter. Unpleasant business indeed. But let me ask you something: given the choice between doing so and giving us all the one glimpse we might ever get behind the image of the warm, smiling literal GODDESS OF LOVE, who we used to listen to with extreme cult-generated reverance, who we actually once worshipped as divine, who posed for years for us as the perfect example of a true devotee -- you get the picture, I'm sure -- and not, which would you choose?

So fine, now we know that she's a brainless twit with absolutely no ability to maintain the slightest friendship bond that even slightly contravenes the boundaries of her own mind-trap and who calls anyone who walks an 'asshole' such is her ability to stand back and see the world. Big fucking deal.

Unpleasant? Yes. Just? Absolutely.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 22:33:00 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Answer from Susan
Message:
I really cannot say what I would have done if I had been the recipient of that letter. I have learned a lot about how it feels to be stonewalled by premies and it is not pretty. It seems the woman who sent this to the site may have been in a situation not unlike the one Abi and I are in regarding Jagdeo. So I have a lot of sympathy for her.
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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 02:00:18 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Susan
Subject: Very poignant answer (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 07:52:32 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jethro
Subject: ***Best***
Message:
***Best***
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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 00:38:34 (GMT)
From: Bouncing Betty
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: premie copmplacency
Message:
Your old ashrum bud sounds just as self-referential and narcissitic as M...reminds me of Hannah Arendt's postulations re the banality of evil. Not that your friend's evil, but that the festering focus on his experience, resulting in the willful ignorance of dastardly deeds which are deemed irrelevant because all that matters is his experience, produce results which could be construed as evil, a la the Jagdeo affair. Not unlike Hitler's Pope, Pius XII.
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Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 23:51:05 (GMT)
From: Memphis Belle
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: premie copmplacency
Message:
Jethro,

I think that it is interesting that premies cannot admit that they think M is god.

When your friend kept avoiding your direct question of god,
I thought to myself, 'OH COME ON! Just admit it!'

I have never know a premie to ever say that M is god.
This is because M has programmed them in suttle ways so that nobody goes around screaming that M is god.

The news media would consider his followers to be stupid.

And believe me, M does not wish to be associated with any stupidity.

So he never says that he is god, in order to protect himself.

In my opion, one day he will feel like a dog cowered down with his tail between his legs.

See, even dogs know when they have done something wrong.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 04:58:07 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Memphis Belle/Jethro
Subject: premie superiority/complacency
Message:
Just wanted to say hi to you both! Haven't seen either of you here in a while. Jethro, if you speak some Hebrew to me it will make my week, And Memphis I will never forget your wise posts about why you decided not to pursue knowledge (smart girl). You noticed that M only talked about himself and didn't talk about God. That WOULD be a good sign for the God-seeker to 'run like the bloody wind' wouldn't it? WHy did I miss that little bit of evidence? Oh well, nevertheless good to see you both here.

Too bad about the complacency. I guess when they go on about 'my experience' they mean they don't want to bothered with anything that will be a bummer to their trip, man.

It really is a strange sort of trance, being a premie. It is an existence that has to be pumped up all the time, lest one be reminded of the messy stuff of life. I remember vast amounts of time--years--when I didn't watch TV, go to malls, or read newspapers. I was 'above' all that, it really is a case of thinking we were better than the rest of humanity, don't you think?

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 14:24:37 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Shalom Helen
Message:
Mettzuyan lirot hamilim shelach. If baah lach tishlechy li email.

meir veehud brachot al harosh shelah. Yitroh.

*Translation: Wonderful to see your words. If you feel like it send me an email.

A hundred and one blessings on your head. Jethro

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 19:47:02 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Shalom Helen
Message:
Hello dear. Thanks for the Hebrew words. I now feel blessed. You have performed a mitzvah today!! I would be glad to send you an email. I have to locate your email address , do you feel comfortable posting it here?
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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 22:47:53 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: jc@jethro666.screaming.net
To: Helen
Subject: My secret email address
Message:
All the love to you and yours XXXXXX Jethro
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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 02:53:46 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: My secret email address
Message:
Does the jc signify jesus christ and what about those three 6's--SATAN??????

Paraniacally yours,
Helen
(i will email soon)

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 03:19:23 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: jc is my initials.....
Message:
and 666 well that is just I happen to be the 666th 'jethro' on the net.

Would I lie?

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 02:46:04 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Memphis Belle
Subject: premie copmplacency
Message:
Hmmm. He used to say he was greater than god. Maybe he lowered himself to the level of god, got embarrassed about being associated with g and now is trying to put a little distance-kinda like Gore and Clinton.
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Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 22:01:50 (GMT)
From: I dunno
Email: None
To: Haldor
Subject: genuinely puzzled
Message:
Dear Haldor,

What I've learnt from this is that someimes WE take things MUCH too seriously. I agree with you that darshan is a blast. meditation is most of the time, for me really good. I'd rather do it than not do it. I was a bit miffed at paying $55 to see a prerecorded video but what the heck. I've decided to spend less money on M and more time on meditating. Service is an 'iffy' situation for me at present. I'm not really into it. Want to learn to love the premies and everyone else as much as I can in a real way.

Portugal must ne nice. Are you from the U.K.? What do you do in Portugal?

Bye for now,

I. Dunno

p

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Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 22:22:43 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: I dunno
Subject: genuinely puzzled
Message:
ick
Use your own writing style
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Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 20:42:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Haldor
Subject: Fisher of men
Message:
The way I see it, Maharaji was a certain kind of fisherman. He used a certain kind of bait -- the promise of realization, the threat of falling in the clutches one's poisonous mind if one turned away -- that didn't fully catch everyone. Those it did paid a big price. They got seriously hooked. The rest, people like you or Dog, nibbled at the edges of the bait and think you got a free meal.

But, the analogy falls apart on close examination. Everyone got hooked to some extent. Everyone paid a price if only in the insult to their dignity (whether they know it or not).

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 07:30:59 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Fisher of men
Message:
Jim,

I don't get it. If this thing is so dangerous, how come you've lived to tell the tale?

If someone tells you that the greatest, most valuable thing in the whole universe is inside of you, how can that be an insult to your dignity?

Mili

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 14:20:34 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Liar of men
Message:
You give away your dignity if you follow someone who has betrayed your trust.,,,,,,the existing premies just won't admit it to themselves. It would mean that they actually have to think for themselves and even form their own opinion which of course is only 'mind'.
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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 14:13:12 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Fisher of men
Message:
If someone tells you that the greatest, most valuable thing in the whole universe is inside of you, how can that be an insult to your dignity?

Maharaji expects you to crawl to him to get it. He doesn't just offer a peek inside. He wants to make it perfectly clear that without him your life is meaningless, empty, purposeless. He wants us all to grovel before him, provided we're suckers enough to believe that the gates are closed until he, in his benevolence, decides to open them. Fuck him.

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 02:25:31 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Fisher of men
Message:
Jerry,

Crawl to him - without him my life is meaningless - grovel before him. Sheeese! I'm obviously missing something here! I never got any of this. I never felt this way at all. It was always pretty relaxed IMO. I could leave at any time and chose to stay.

If that's what you Jim, Roger and the regulars here got, then I guess you're entitled to be pissed off. I never got this. My years as a premie have for the most part been pretty relaxed and enjoyable. If it hadn't been I would have left and gotten into something else.

-- Dep

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 14:19:06 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Fisher of men
Message:
Dep,

When Maharaji goes off about the glory of the master, how do you feel about that? When he says shit like we need him but he doesn't need us, how does that make you feel? A little insignificant, perhaps? It's undignified. When he stakes a claim on the techniques, calling them his (and I have heard him do this), claiming that they're his to give to whomever he pleases whenever he pleases, what do you think about that? What if you were an aspirant who travelled all around the country for 6 months, fulfilling the prerequisites to receive Knowledge, only to be told by Maharaji the first time you meet him that you're not ready yet? How would that make you feel? Would you like to be dust at his feet? He would like you to be. He thinks it would be an honor. A devotee should desire nothing less (or more) and should be eternally grateful for his little corner in the cargo bay on the big ship across the river of maya.

If it was just about some meditation techniques that open up your consciousness to 'that place' inside, I'd say that dignity didn't play a part. But when Maharaji starts talking about himself as being the vehicle to that place, and you can't bow low enough to him because of it, I'd say the trip starts to get a little undignfied. Especially when its bullshit.

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Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 20:01:34 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Security HTML and Scripts
Message:
CERT Advisory CA-2000-02 in Client Web Requests

Here's an interesting article on embedded malicious HTML tags. A malicious HTML tag also includes SCRIPT like JavaScript, which you might remember from the days of Forum IV and Anything Goes on Paradise.

We were plagued by Cerberus or some bus driver's nerdy computer son and his playing around with JavaScript code and other HTML tags embedded in the User-Agent field. And actually you can embed such code directly into the Message itself. And I know this because I have done so.

These message boards are far more dangerous and susceptible to these kinds of shenanigans than your normal surfing the net because anybody can embed such code.

For myself I put www.paradise-web.com domain into my browsers Restricted Zone and disabled all scripting and other similar behavior in the Settings for the Restricted Zone. BTW, I have configured my email client to use the Restricted Zone for all incoming email that is of HTML type.

Also, Proxomitron (see Drek™'s Proxomitron page) has webpage filters that disable a lot of the culprits that can compromise your security.

Although I do not know what the Forum V software does behind the scenes, I know that Brian is very conscientious about security and has done excellent work in this area. Brian might be filtering or disallowing certain HTML tags to pass through in the Message that is stored on the server and eventually comes down to your machine and is processed by your browser. And in sayng that I just did a quick test of such and found that SCRIPT tags within the message body are rendered useless I don't believe that I'm giving the dedicated Hacker any information that he doesn't already have.

Good job, Brian! We don't need that hacker crap here.

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Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 19:10:31 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: All
Subject: U.S. employment now with...
Message:
The Bureau of the Census, known as Census 2000, is hiring over 500,000 people nationwide to conduct the decennial census. It is the largest peacetime mobilization of a government agency in history. It's the nuts and bolts of representative democracy working right, to know the popultion distribution in order to put money where it belongs and give areas proper congressional representation.

The concept and reality of the census dates back to antiquity. It has been taken in the USA every ten years since 1790, so this is only the 21st US Census. Feels kinda neat being involved.
It's only temporary but if you are looking for part or full time work, check it out locally in your area. There is a media blitz going on to recruit, so you will probably hear it on TV, radio or read about it in the paper or see it ont he internet.

Available jobs include both inside and outside work, full and part time, days and evenings. There is a general knowledge test
you have to call up to sign up for and take, and then based on the results you would get a callback and an interview. Pay begins at $12.75 an hour and goes up to the $20.00.hr range.

If you are not a U.S. citizen and you don't have a social security card and a driver's license, you can provide a passport as I.D. and are equally eligible under the Equal Opportunity laws. Also protected under the same EEO laws are the elderly. the disabled, all creeds, colors, genders and origins.

I just want to do good, even to those who I disagree with about Maharaji. I've got this pollyanna idea from the Bible that if I want to feel the actual tangible buzz that following God gives, I should shine like the sun on everyone, not just on those with whom I agree on things. You know, it's working right now!

I hope this helps somebody out there who is in need of full-time or part-time employment right now.

Shp

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Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 23:55:17 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: U.S. employment now with...
Message:
Sounds like an excellent oppurtuninty for premies to make some extra money for m, and if they are any good at it they can do it again in 10 years, its definetly a step up from roses on the street on mothers day. Plus maybe you could propogate
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Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 20:22:25 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: U.S. employment now with...
Message:
Dear Sandy,
Thanks. I think I'd do just that, part time days with my other part time job. Wish I'd thought of that earlier! :) I knew someone, the grown daughter of the owners of the house I rent actually. We have been friends for 20 years and one of the daughter's worked for the 80's census and did as Roger said, go door to door. I would love that, driving all over this beautiful country side and visiting with people! I didn't know how it worked for her, packet wise or if it is different now but sounds like a good deal. I'll let you know how it goes.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 19:31:47 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Shp
Subject: Census Jobs = Fun & Money
Message:
Yup, I worked a Census job back in 1980 and it was a gas! Best job I ever had and probably the highest $ per hour rate I've ever made.

Back then it was piece work, meaning that for every interview or item you verified you'd get paid something like $2.00 or so.

About twice a week I'd get a packet of work and I'd go out and do it. Some items needing verification were determining that an apartment building that the Census Bureau thought had 6 floors of 6 units per floor had only 4 floors. I would find somebody on the street and get their name as a witness and we'd count the floors and in about 5 minutes I had made $24.

And then you get to knock on doors and talk to people. It was better than being a milkman.

Only problem was that I'd rip through my packet in about three hours and would be done with the packet and would have to sit around and do nothing until the next packet.

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Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 19:19:00 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: U.S. employment now with...
Message:
Oh, you shine alright, shp. Say, does the census even hire those from the 'money grubbing lineage of Jews'?
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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 03:43:04 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: who cares
Message:
It's so sad to hear people spout racist comments like this. You talk of evil, but there has been more evil perpetrated in the name of racism that just about anything. I have always thought of racism as a canker of the heart, and is just an outward manifestation of what's going on inside the sufferer.
Money grubbing is the cornerstone of capitalism , so it seems silly to blame someone 'cause their good at it.
Ps, how do you feel about Blacks and Asians?

'Be cautious of your thoughts and speech
for they can destroy
And bring great pain.
These same thoughts
Can heal
And create
Many wonders.
Indeed, all is choice.'

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 05:36:53 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: who cares
Message:
Harry,
I'm a little confused by your post. Perhaps my post was confusing to you.

Several months ago shp (from the SHEEP Channel) introduced himself to someone here (I can't remember whom) and said he was Jewish but not from the European lineage of moneygrubbing Jews. I took exception to his comment as did a few others, and we went round and round with the sheepster, but as usual we just all got dizzy 'cause sheepy wouln't admit to anything. He just twisted himself all up in his sheep web and stuck his head in the sand. But then, that's why he's sheepy, isn't it?

I agree with you about racism, obviously.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 09:57:10 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: who cares
Message:
Shit, I hate apologies. I'm sorry that I implied your racist, I was wrong. This is what happens when you read only a few of the threads. I thought you were just saying shitty things to SHP.
I'll just stumble outa here into the night, trying to extract my head, which is stuck firmly up my arse.
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Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 22:27:37 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Reply to you Powerman
Message:
Moneygrubbers are in all cultural groups.
So are philanthropists and saints.
In direct answer to your question, the EEO does not allow any discrimination whatsoever.

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Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 23:17:23 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Reply to you Powerman
Message:
That's why you have your own special channel, The Sheep Channel. You waffle supreme. Now can you imagine a Christian saying 'I don't come from the the money-grubbing lineage of Christians'?
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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 03:54:05 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: This thread is frayed enough
Message:
Powerman,

Are you from the nitpicking witchhunting lineage of powermen?

The letter killeth but the spirit giveth life, PM.

You are looking for a bigot where there isn't one.

You took my words and twisted them to your own misuse.

Being a Jew myself, I know whereof I speak.

Jesus, also a Jew, hated moneygrubbers too, the moneychangers in the Temple who were ripping off the out-of-towners and cutting in the priests on the deal. That's why he went off on them with a whip and overturned their scales and tables. Did that make him a bigot or an anti-semite? I don't think so. Chew on that, for there is real power in it.

Love,
Shp

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 04:58:30 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: This thread is frayed enough
Message:
Yes, Sheepster, that's mighty powerful. But here's the thing: When you use the word 'lineage' it makes a big difference, because the idea that's being set forth is that there's a group of people who 'hand down' moneygrubbing from one generation to the next. This is what Jews were accused of by racists and bigots.

Furthermore, for you to have described yourself months ago as '...a Jew but not from the European money-grubbing lineage of Jews...', is to embrace the racist model and deny that you are part of it.

I also think the thing is, that we're all a little racist and bigotted. It comes with the territory of being alive in a racist world. The remedy is to fight against it, even in small ways, in yourself and in others.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 15:23:21 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Powerman and Harry, for both
Message:
Shp wrote:
Powerman,
Are you from the nitpicking witchhunting lineage of powermen?
The letter killeth but the spirit giveth life, PM.
You are looking for a bigot where there isn't one.
You took my words and twisted them to your own misuse.
Being a Jew myself, I know whereof I speak.
Jesus, also a Jew, hated moneygrubbers too, the moneychangers in the Temple who were ripping off the out-of-towners and cutting in the priests on the deal. That's why he went off on them with a whip and overturned their scales and tables. Did that make him a bigot or an anti-semite? I don't think so. Chew on that, for there is real power in it.
Love,
Shp

Powerman responded:
Yes, Sheepster, that's mighty powerful. But here's the thing: When you use the word 'lineage' it makes a big difference, because the idea that's being set forth is that there's
a group of people who 'hand down' moneygrubbing from one generation to the next. This is what Jews were accused of by racists and bigots. Furthermore, for you to have described yourself months ago as '...a Jew but not from the European money-grubbing lineage of Jews...', is to embrace the racist model and deny that you are part of it.

I also think the thing is, that we're all a little racist and bigotted. It comes with the territory of being alive in a racist world. The remedy is to fight against it, even in small ways, in yourself and in others.

Shp writes on 2/6:

Powerman,

As I was getting my coffee this morning and firing up the computer, I had the realization that the word 'lineage' was the sticking point for you and others, for what it implied beyond my liberal use of the word. It was my first order of business once my computer warmed up to give you that much back in feedback.

As I scanned down the thread and read your new post about the same word 'lineage', I felt OK in knowing that we agree intellectually about how I used the 'l' word. I also appreciate your admission that we all have absorbed some of the bigotry of the world we live in. Thanks for space to grow and change.

For the sake of clarity, I want to say here that I do not believe that genetics, DNA, or biological lineage compels a person to be one way or another, and that was never my implication. There is also flawed intellectual and cultural lineage which is hard but not impossible to break free from. But we all have free will and I believe we can overcome any and all imperfections in our heritage that we wish to, time, willpower and wisdom permitting.

I am aware of the fact that Jews were not allowed to own property or businesses in areas of Europe for a time in the Middle Ages and they had to resort to using what material things they had to better themselves. So they became expert at the art of lending what they had and charging interest just to survive.

Unfortunatley, enough of them became corrupt and greedy enough to create a stereotypical image that even Shakespeare illustrated in the Merchant of Venice in the person of Shylock the moneylender. Usury, the practice of charging outrageous interest rates on loans, was perfected back then and exists to this day in our plastic credit cards that charge upwards of 20% interest on the principal.

Despite all of this historical reference, I still agree with you that the word 'lineage' was incorrect and connoted something I had no intention of passing on.

Thank you for pursuing the issue and pointing out my need to finer tune my words in this case. I welcome such feedback, wanting to communicate better and more effectively always. To you and the other who were offended, please forgive even the appearance of impropriety in my use of the word 'lineage'.

Now, how about the automatic negative response to premies around here who come by with no intention of leaving Maharaji? Isn't that also bigotry? Can we discuss that too? Can't you believe that some of us might just want to communicate with no hiddeen agendas?

Shp

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:24:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: HOLY FUCKING COW!!!!!!!!!
Message:
I am aware of the fact that Jews were not allowed to own property or businesses in areas of Europe for a time in the Middle Ages and they had to resort to using what material things they had to better themselves. So they became expert at the art of lending what they had and charging interest just to survive.

Unfortunatley, enough of them became corrupt and greedy enough to create a stereotypical image that even Shakespeare illustrated in the Merchant of Venice in the person of Shylock the moneylender. Usury, the practice of charging outrageous interest rates on loans, was perfected back then and exists to this day in our plastic credit cards that charge upwards of 20% interest on the principal.

I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU SAID THIS!!!!!!! You are SUCH an ignoramus!! AS IF you understand the least bit of the history of antisemitism! Anyone who thinks you deserve even a modicum of respect, asshole, is ....... wrong.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 21:23:39 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You can twist it any way you
Message:
want to, and you make a living twisting words if it wins your case, truth be damned. That's why lawyers get a bad rap too and there are so many jokes and cliches about the subject. I didn't invent it, I'm just reporting what is going on in this world we both live in. I know some really good guys who are lawyers and I feel for them because they get such a bad rap from the getgo because of their profession. Enough lawyers have screwed enough people that the word got out and spoiled it for the rest of them.

So type bold and use alot of punctuation and act all outraged and whatever else it is you call 'grandstanding' to cop everyone's attention, albeit a diversion from something you don't want them to notice.

Ever cop to something shady behind closed doors to settle a case? Of course you cannot answer me honestly if the answer is yes because you took an oath to be an officer of the court. And you aren't going down for the sake of truth because that pain in the ass Shp on the ex site asked you THE question.

And really...when you are itching from those wool lawyers suits that make you sweat alot you-know-where, do you just scratch yourself right you-know-there in front of the judge or the jury? Or do you deal with that in private? And if so, why do you feel
the need to scrutinize Maharaji or anyone else and point out how they act different on stage than they do off. DUH. Who doesn't?
Different isn't necessarily hypocritical or contradictory, it's just different.

I CAN'T BELEIVE YOU SAID THAT!!!!!!!!!!!OMYGOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 09:41:50 (GMT)
From: Shp comes from a lineage
Email: None
To: all
Subject: shp is on self-destruct
Message:
the ultimate self-hater...only he hasn'y yet realised it
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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 12:15:25 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Shp comes from a lineage
Subject: wishing won't make it so, guys
Message:
The US Government committed genocide on native Americans for real estate.

The ancestors of Abraham sacrificed their children to their deities for divine favor.

Tobacco companies and the government lied to the public about the dangers of smoking to make a profit, thus committing corporate murder nationwide. That is why they are paying billions now.

These are facts, not bigoted remarks. The other statements I have made here are also facts. Grow up.

Perhaps I should not have cast my pearls before swine...but there are still some humans among you, and to those of you who are still human, I started this thread to do good, to let anyone and everyone know about available good paying jobs nationwide in the USA. Powerman brought up an old comment I made about 'lineage' and I copped to it.

So for those of you who have no other interest in this thread but to try to tear me down, God bless you and go fuck yourselves. For those of you who are seeking work and anything I said helps, good luck.

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 17:30:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Your kind of half-baked ideas
Message:
are dangerous, Shp. You're such a fool I can barely contain myself.

I jsut dare you to bring one of your kids here.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:05:17 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Powerman and Harry, for both
Message:
Now, how about the automatic negative response to premies around here who come by with no intention of leaving Maharaji? Isn't that also bigotry? Can we discuss that too? Can't you believe that some of us might just want to communicate with no hiddeen agendas? Shp

There are a few distinctions I can think of, off the top of my head, that separate the hostility towards premies on this forum, and bigotry as we know it.

First, the anger towards premies is generated by the expression of an oppressive belief system that was previously embraced by the people who discuss on this forum. It's an anger based on reason and thinking that was brought to a conclusion. Bigotry is based on an unreasonable bias against a group of people. Although there's hostility here, it isn't prejudicial.

Second, in almost all cases of bigotry the vicitms have no responsibility for the hostility. By definition, bigotry is hostility which the victims did nothing to deserve. And in line with this, there's nothing the victims can do to change it because they didn't 'do' anything in the first place.

Blacks, Jews, Muslims, Asians, Hispanis, lesbians and gays are hated as a result of irrationality and prejudice. There's nothing they could do to change their status even if they tried. If you're black, Asian or Hispanic, you can't change your complexion, and so forth.

But in the case of premies, you're talking about a belief system that specifically elicits anger in people (ex-premies) who suffered a loss by formerly believing in it themselves.

Third, the results of bigotry appears in forms more serious than verbal insults. The discrimination can be seen in losses that are suffered physically and financially. None of those losses apply here; the most serious offense is an exchange of words.

The expressions towards premies on this forum don't constitute bigotry, shp. They just don't.

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 12:22:30 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Nitpicking terms with Powerman
Message:
By the way, if you are so powerful, why can't you reveal who you really are? If it's a genuine fear of being in danger or somethng like that I can understand. But if not, then I suggest you get another name, Pee-Man.

Also, if you want to split hairs between what bigotry is and just plain rude, crude, ugly and impolite behavior, go for it. I see little difference. Intolerance is intolerance, and that is what bigotry is. You want to play dictionary games? Go for it.

You are an intellectual bigot against premies who don't become ex-premies within your timeframe after you roll out your archives . That's the intolerance that qualifies YOU as a bigot.

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 18:12:20 (GMT)
From: another mole
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Nitpicking terms with Powerman
Message:
He is the husband of Marianne Bachers and a federal prosecutor, according to Marianne.
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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 18:28:42 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: another mole
Subject: Nitpicking terms with Powerman
Message:
Dear mole,
That is very funny! Marianne was kidding when she said pman was her husband. Pman recently posted to Jim that he is a janitor not a federal prosecutor.
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 03:06:18 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Powerman
Subject: Excellent response Powerman NT
Message:
nt
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