Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Feb 12, 2000 at 08:58:02 (GMT)
From: Feb 02, 2000 To: Feb 09, 2000 Page: 5 Of: 5


Jean-Michel -:- Some EV's documents! Part 1 -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 14:56:12 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek™ -:- Added Corporate Shenanigans -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 18:57:22 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Added Corporate Shenanigans -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 23:01:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- Great! -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 04:00:54 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- So what are they afraid of??? -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 17:27:58 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Part 1, some comments -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 16:35:44 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Some EV's documents! Part 2 -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 14:57:32 (GMT)
__ __ Bob! -:- Some EV's documents! Part 2 -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 00:52:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- Don't ever change, Rob! -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 04:58:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bob! -:- More scandals!!! -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 06:21:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- Haven't we met before? -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 06:45:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Some EV's documents! Part 2 -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 01:06:33 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Some EV's documents! Part 3 -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 14:58:57 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Part 3, some comments -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 16:51:27 (GMT)

Oshlabaka -:- I like my steak -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:39:51 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- I like my steak -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 18:35:45 (GMT)
__ __ Oshlabaka -:- I like my steak -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 05:57:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ cqg -:- ... enough to sell your soul? -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 13:30:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- ... enough to sell your soul? -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 17:19:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike -:- I like my steak -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 15:06:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Never touch the stuff -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 16:57:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- I like my steak -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 11:57:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- I like my steak -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 03:26:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- I just wanna be dust -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 20:32:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Is that THE Jerry? -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 18:57:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- He he he he -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 19:13:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Hi Nige, Mike -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 19:35:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Ms. K -:- Hi Jerry -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 20:35:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Hi Katie -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 21:45:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Ms. K/Katie -:- Hi Katie -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 22:28:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Har har har -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 23:59:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ms. K -:- Hey, that's Robyn's job! -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 01:12:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Uh, oh... I mean arrrr (nt) -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 02:18:21 (GMT)
__ SB -:- I like my steak too -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 05:30:20 (GMT)
__ __ Oshlabaka -:- I like my steak too -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 06:46:13 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Y r u doing this? (yawn..) -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 15:50:18 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- I like my steak -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:48:28 (GMT)

Sir David -:- Prefered to have been his ally -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:32:43 (GMT)
__ Mantis -:- Fuck you, you crybaby! -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 23:54:22 (GMT)
__ __ Sir David -:- Fuck you, you crybaby! -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 07:24:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mantis -:- Fuck you, you crybaby! -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 08:27:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- Aren't I entitled to a little -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 07:01:57 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Announcing the Hate Forum! -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 02:31:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- I hate hate! (nt) -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 14:29:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cqg -:- I hate hate! membership=none? -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 19:14:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Runamok -:- You'll have to FA it! -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 08:57:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ms. K -:- Thanks a LOT, Jim! -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 06:44:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- YEAH! And... -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 06:54:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Ms. K. -:- YEAH! And... -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 07:18:46 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Fuck you, you crybaby! -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 00:05:33 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek™ -:- Prefered to have been his ally -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 05:59:59 (GMT)
__ __ Ms. K. -:- Sir David's post for **BEST**? -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 14:33:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- **BEST** -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 17:43:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Thanks Katie & Roger (nt) -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 07:32:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ralph Delp -:- Maudlin at best. -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 15:56:38 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Can't someone become 'bad'? -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:45:06 (GMT)
__ __ Sir David -:- Can't someone become 'bad'? -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 15:01:12 (GMT)
__ __ Loaf -:- Can't someone become 'bad'? -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 08:25:59 (GMT)

xp -:- Elan Vital is a church -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 03:00:10 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Elan Vital is a church! -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 03:40:49 (GMT)

SB/shifting -:- Cults -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 21:50:02 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- Cults -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 22:17:07 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Brainwashing -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 00:04:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- Brainwashing -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 00:30:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB/Sh -:- Brainwashing -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 03:23:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ me again -:- just had to SB -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 05:42:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Brainwashing -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 03:46:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Brainwashing -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 03:58:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Brainwashing -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:04:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ confused ? -:- Brainwashing -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:12:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- no problem ;) -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 05:05:49 (GMT)

E.Vital desperation $ -:- Maharaji you are so cheap!! -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 20:32:03 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek™ -:- toilet paper trail on his shoe -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 20:44:34 (GMT)

Roger eDrek™ -:- Margolis Palm Beach Empire -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 19:49:34 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek™ -:- Prouty Palm Beach Connection -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 20:37:28 (GMT)
__ __ DV -:- Prouty Palm Beach Connection -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 01:35:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- Thats' how it is, unfortunâtly -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 04:07:18 (GMT)
__ __ xp -:- Prouty Palm Beach Connection -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 20:53:41 (GMT)
__ G -:- Dennis Marciniak -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 20:08:03 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- reminds me of NSA/Ushida -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 21:46:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- reminds me of NSA/Ushida -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 02:13:41 (GMT)
__ xp -:- of interest? -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 22:07:05 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- Robert A. Jacobs and Onae -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 23:00:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ xp -:- Robert A. Jacobs bio -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 02:23:17 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek™ -:- Onae, baby names -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 02:18:51 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek™ -:- Onae, Delteck, Jacobs & SEC -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 02:27:17 (GMT)
__ __ MC WA Div HQ -:- Classified-- Eyes Only Roger -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 02:39:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ cqg -:- over and out? you mean OUT(nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 21:03:45 (GMT)
__ __ xp -:- Robert A. Jacobs and Onae -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 01:02:18 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Where does the rat take you? -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 16:54:05 (GMT)
__ Deputy Dog -:- Where does M take me? -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 03:13:48 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Where does M take me? -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:34:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ cqg -:- M takes a lot of people ... -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 20:03:01 (GMT)
__ Shifting -:- Where does the rat take you? -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 18:26:17 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- I've been through this! -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 19:38:59 (GMT)
__ Mike -:- Where does the rat take you? -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 17:10:10 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Rat's ride in the Rat's world -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 18:27:03 (GMT)

Mahaha's site -:- Looks like a condom! -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 16:06:07 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek™ -:- C what they don't want U to C -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 18:12:34 (GMT)
__ __ why Altavista allows -:- Maharaji spamms good! -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 18:45:14 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- C what they don't want U to C -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 18:30:44 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- how bizarre! or a toilet bowl -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 16:18:49 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- how bizarre! or a toilet bowl -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 16:27:09 (GMT)
__ __ I like that better!! -:- A TOILETTE BOWL !! -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 17:58:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Barbie's boyfriend, Ken -:- IT'S A COCK RING! (nt) -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 18:16:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- IT'S A COCK RING! (nt) -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 18:18:03 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- a cock ring w/ cum gushing nt -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 19:00:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ selene -:- a cock ring w/ cum gushing nt -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 19:05:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- webCT server? nt -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 19:28:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- webCT server? -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 19:36:34 (GMT)
__ G -:- It's a hypnosis wheel! -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 18:57:53 (GMT)
__ Mahaha's credits page -:- descent into the abyss -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 19:40:24 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Hellish abyss -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 20:00:27 (GMT)

Roger eDrek™ -:- Asking for help here! GVN UK -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 06:03:17 (GMT)
__ G -:- Check the following links -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 13:58:01 (GMT)
__ G -:- A tangent -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 13:43:09 (GMT)
__ __ Maybe if I put this here -:- people might see what they are -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 16:32:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ cqg -:- related site -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 16:44:49 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek™ -:- More help on Somatics Dettmers -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 07:29:58 (GMT)

09 -:- ex Si Baba link needed -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 04:47:41 (GMT)
__ G -:- Sai Baba links -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 05:29:05 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Ex-devotees of sb link -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 07:37:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ 09 -:- Much appreciated! nt -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 11:15:46 (GMT)

Nigel -:- The slippery 'as if' factor -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 03:54:08 (GMT)
__ Sean -:- Good dialectic & analysis -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 03:50:55 (GMT)
__ The Big X -:- Good job Nigel -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 01:05:45 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Good job Nigel -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 01:46:40 (GMT)
__ Mel Bourne -:- The slippery 'as if' factor -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 13:17:38 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- And the $64,000 metaphor? -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 12:48:38 (GMT)
__ __ Mantis -:- who is rawat? -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 01:24:26 (GMT)
__ __ Jim Heller -:- Fuck off and DIE, Mel -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 14:54:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Jim, Mel is a human being -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 02:50:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mike -:- You should care... -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 15:19:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Why I'm a premie -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 14:39:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Why I'm a premie -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 18:29:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cqg -:- Can't do it alone? we're here! -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 18:28:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mike -:- I dunno, Dep -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 15:55:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's really confused, Dog -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 15:47:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Irene -:- is Maharaji human? -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 03:34:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim Heller -:- He's a bad representative then -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 03:33:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- He's a bad representative then -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 15:44:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're playing dumb, Dog -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 15:58:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- You're playing dumb, Dog -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 19:01:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Be careful with language, plea -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 19:25:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Be careful with language, plea -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 20:24:27 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- The slippery 'as if' factor -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 14:21:45 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- awesome post! (nt) -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 07:05:05 (GMT)
__ Oh Yes -:- Yes -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 05:03:52 (GMT)
__ __ Oshlabaka -:- Yes -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 06:32:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- What the..? -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 19:55:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cqg -:- What the..? excuse me while I -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 20:50:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ mantis -:- Yes and so what? -:- Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 19:02:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Oshlabaka -:- Yes and so what? -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 05:41:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ bushwacka -:- Yes -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 20:20:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Yes -:- suggesting an experiement -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 17:46:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike -:- I don't care.... -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 16:55:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ yes -:- Yes -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 11:12:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cult Obserber -:- Excellent example of premie -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 07:58:03 (GMT)
__ I. Dunno -:- The slippery 'as if' factor -:- Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 04:42:52 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 14:56:12 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Some EV's documents! Part 1
Message:
Here's some interesting stuff I've got from US exes.

These documents have been worked on during recent meetings
with EV's lawyers and EV's representatives in the various cities.

I've been working on that sort of stuff in France also.
I now find these documents pathetic and boring,
but they show a lot on EV's guidelines and policy.

There is a lot to say about this, but read this first ....

All of this is of course confidential and copyrighted,
so keep it for yourself. I trust you!

++++++++++++++++++++

ELAN VITAL, INC.
5321 DERRY AVENUE, SUITE G. AGOURA HILLS, CA 91301
POST OFFICE BOX 6130 MALIBU, CALIFORNIA 90264
PHONE: 818/889-1193 FAX: 818/889-6522

TO: ORGANIZERS OF LOCAL ASSOCIATIONS
FROM: LINDA S. GROSS
DATE: June 2, 1998

This memo addresses some of the legal aspects of local organizations. It has come to my attention that some communities have discussed actually setting up a nonprofit corporation and applying for tax exempt status. This is not a good idea. It creates potential exposure to the Internal Revenue Service and other governmental agencies. If a local nonprofit organization failed to take proper action and an investigation occurred, Elan Vital could be exposed. The goal is to function and achieve propagation with a minimum of formal organization.

Our recommendation is as follows: Most states recognize unincorporated associations as legal entities. If there is a question for a community within a particular state, you can contact a local attorney to find out if your particular state recognizes unincorporated associations.

A local community can 'form' an unincorporated association, select a name and file a Fictitious Business Name Statement. You may need to research what is required to file a Fictitious Business Name. Usually some publication of the Fictitious Business name in a local newspaper is required.

The association should then file Form SS-4, Application for Employer Identification Number (EID), with the Internal Revenue Service. Don't let the name 'Employer' fool you. It does not mean that the local organization will have employees. The IRS will assign a tax identification number to be used by the association the way an individual uses a Social Security number.

Once the unincorporated association is assigned an EID number by the IRS and completes publication of the Fictitious Business Name, it usually can open a non-interest bank account in the name of the association, e.g., Tahoe Resource Group. Most banks require an EID number and proof of publication of the Fictitious Business Name Statement before they will open a bank account.

Unlike a corporation, it is not usually necessary for an unincorporated association to prepare other legal documents such as statutes, articles, bylaws, etc. When in doubt, contact a local attorney in your area.

The bank account set up by the unincorporated association should not be an interest bearing account. Banks report interest income to the IRS. The IRS cross-references the report of interest income against the association 's income tax return. If the association does not have interest income, it does not have to file any tax returns.

A person who understands finances should handle the bank account for the association. Funds received for support of local video events should be deposited to the bank account. Expenses such as rent for location for local video events, Visions screening fees, and other expenses should be paid from the bank account. If, at the end of the year, the association does not have 'net profits,' it does not have to file a tax return. If any tax authority inquires as to why the association did not file a tax return, the person can show that the association had no 'net income' or 'net profits' because its expenses were greater than its receipts.

I do not recommend that these associations purchase Visions materials such as magazines and videos for resale as they then may have to file state sales tax returns. This does not preclude an individual within the community from purchasing several magazines or videos and 'reselling' them at no profit to others.

When a prospective venue for a video event is contacted, the person can refer to the association as the organization seeking to rent the venue.

It is vital that the association obtain liability insurance in case anyone 'slips and falls.' Such liability insurance may protect such a person from suing Elan Vital since videos from Elan Vital will be shown as events. Elan Vital understands that even though the unincorporated association is not legally tied to Elan Vital, someone attending an association event can still sue it.

The association may be able to enter into a lease for space or agreement with a hotel for a place to show videos. Again, Elan Vital seeks to minimize its financial exposure and asks that the association handle such leases or agreements. In some cases, a prospective lessor may want an individual's name on the lease. Whether or not that happens depends on the willingness of an individual to expose himself or herself to such potential liability.

There is also a question of the purchase of video equipment. Again, it is our recommendation that either an individual or group of individuals pool their resources to purchase the equipment. The unincorporated association could also purchase the equipment, although individuals may have to guarantee any financing since the association will have little or no financial depth.

If anyone has a particular question, please call Elan Vital (818/889-1193) and leave a message with Terry or you can send a facsimile (818/889-0502 and leave any questions on a facsimile. I will get in touch with you as quickly as I can.

Checklist to obtain Unincorporated Association Status:

* Select a name and file a Fictitious Business Name Statement.
* Fill out the SS-4, Application for Employer Identification Number (EID) and submit to Internal Revenue Service.
* Once the EID has been assigned and the Fictitious Business Name process completed, open a non-interest bearing checking bank account in the name of the association.
* As long as a local association does not have 'net profits' or 'net income' or interest income, it need not file a tax return.
* Meticulous record keeping of receipts and disbursements must be kept so that an association can show that it has had no income in the event a tax authority requires.
* Purchase liability insurance to protect the association and, indirectly, Elan Vital.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 18:57:22 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Added Corporate Shenanigans
Message:
Jean-Michel, I've lifted your work here and have added a new section to the House of Maharaji Drek's Corporate Shenanigans named Elan Vital Directives.

Great Stuff!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 23:01:11 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Added Corporate Shenanigans
Message:
I'll get you some more of that kind ....

Very strange documents indeed, now that I think about it !!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 04:00:54 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Great!
Message:
What a strange business it must be for them to be in.

There you are as a trained professional and you have to write directives on how to be sneaky and subversive.

It would not be so bad if the 'church' actually provided some real humanitarian relief, but instead it would appear that the money goes to support Maharaji's extravagant lifestyle.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 17:27:58 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: So what are they afraid of???
Message:
EV wrote:-

It has come to my attention that some communities have discussed actually setting up a nonprofit corporation and applying for tax exempt status. This is not a good idea. It creates potential exposure to the Internal Revenue Service and other governmental agencies. If a local nonprofit organization failed to take proper action and an investigation occurred, Elan Vital could be exposed.

Why? The local nonprofit organisation, if they did not handle their finances correctly, could be exposed, but surely EV has nothing to fear? Some premie a while back assured us that the IRS had found EV's records to be exemplary.

Why are they afraid of drawing attention to themselves? Perhaps some kind ex could forward a copy of these guidelines to the IRS with this section highlighted. The IRS might then also wonder what they have to fear.

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 16:35:44 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Part 1, some comments
Message:
Once can really wonder why EV doesn't want to have any incorporated associations in the various cities and states.

There are lots of advantage in having such associations, like owning the equipment, managing the business in a responsible way.

BUT then EV would lose its levels and control on premies' and associations' activities ....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 14:57:32 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Some EV's documents! Part 2
Message:
CHILDREN ATTENDING EVENTS
where Maharaji is speaking

In an effort to create a focused and quiet environment at events, please consider the following information before bringing children.

Which children are invited to attend events?

Children 8 years of age and older who:

1. have already been introduced to Maharaji and his message 2. wish to attend out of their own genuine interest in listening more
3. are able to sit quietly throughout the event.

Please do not encourage your child, but allow him/her to make the decision to attend based on personal interest.

Consider making alternative child care arrangements in case your child does not attend the event.

Making seating reservations:

Please reserve a seat next to you for your child—using the same reservation form as for yourself. Safety regulations do not allow two people to sit in one seat. You may also request a seat near to an aisle for easier exit if you need to leave during the event. (Making a seating reservation does not guarantee attendance for a child—the child also needs to meet the attendance requirements above.)

Obtaining an Entry Pass for the event:

On arrival, children between the ages of 8 and 12 need to obtain an entry pass from the Child Reception table. This pass needs to be worn throughout the event. It helps to identify the child if he/she becomes separated from the parent(s) and lets ushers know that the child is registered. Parents and children need to go to the Child Reception table well before the event starts. This table will be open from the time the lobby opens until 30 minutes before the event begins.

Reminders:

Child care is not available at events.
For safety, a child needs to be accompanied by an adult at all times.
If a child becomes restless or disturbs other attendees during the event, please take the child out of the hall.
Lobby areas are not suitable for children or parents to wait while an event is in progress.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 00:52:17 (GMT)
From: Bob!
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Some EV's documents! Part 2
Message:
'Which children are invited to attend events?

Children 8 years of age and older who: 1. have already been introduced to Maharaji and his message 2. wish to attend out of their own genuine interest in listening more 3. are able to sit quietly throughout the event.

Please do not encourage your child, but allow him/her to make
the decision to attend based on personal interest.'

Wow! This is explosive!! Call 60 Minutes immediately!

Has a more totalitarian, evil document ever been on public display? I think not.

Great work, Jean-Michel! And a big nod to Roger as well for blowing the lid off the evil P.R. empire of L. Margolis, suspected PAM! Could there BE a more blatantly sinister client than International Rides Management? Which, after close anagrammatical study reveals itself to be, among other things,
R Andersen Giant Lion Mental Team!!!

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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 04:58:05 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Bob!
Subject: Don't ever change, Rob!
Message:
Rob or whomever you are, what else can we expect you to say? However, as a PR wizard that you are you must know the value of a non-response. I think you've slipped up here by making too much noise. Better to neither confirm nor deny, as they say in the biz.

You're beautiful, babe. We've got to take a lunch meeting next time your in town conferring with the boss.

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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 06:21:54 (GMT)
From: Bob!
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: More scandals!!!
Message:
Of course I'm not Rob, you silly man.

It doesn't take much reading here to note your obsession with that guy.

I do love reading your wild guesses and theories, however, even though your last 47 leaps of reasoning have been way off.

I think these childcare guidelines can bring down the whole Evil Empire in one swell foop.

Keep checking into those Palm Beach resorts. You have no IDEA what sort of depravity goes on between women named Phyllis and guys named Bo. Tennis pros, golf carts, push-up bras and free appetizers galore!! The stories I could tell!!

I'll bet the super-mysterious L. Margolis has had a cocktail or two. Keep checking. We need your dogged tenacity here.

Golf pros!! Child care!! Attempted murder!! Miniature hot dogs!!

Juicy, scintillating headlines!!

And all absolutely true!!!

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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 06:45:22 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Bob!
Subject: Haven't we met before?
Message:
My, how you seem so familiar to me.

It doesn't matter who you REALLY are, whether it be Rob, CD, Milli, Nil, Keith, the Cat, Quasi-Premie, Mr. Move-On-Get-A-Life or any of a number of hardcore. Your game is the same and that is to say whatever you need to say in order to counteract what we say about your lord and master, Maharaji and anyone associated closely to him.

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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 01:06:33 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Bob!
Subject: Some EV's documents! Part 2
Message:
Bob,

I don't understand your post completely, but inviting 8 year olds to worship a guru doesn't sit easy in my mind....

(AND DON'T TELL ME AN 8 YEAR OLD IS OLD ENOUGH TO MAKE SUCH A DECISION.)

John

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 14:58:57 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Some EV's documents! Part 3
Message:
SAMPLE

VISIONS INTERNATIONAL
755 Lakefield Road, Ste. J
Westlake Village, CA 91361
Telephone: (605) 496-4777
Facsimile: (805) 496-3165

February 1, 1999
Ms. Patti W. Knowles
Blyssville Resource Group
410 Capital Street
Blyssville, Ohio 43432

Re: Permission to Screen Videos

Dear Ms. Knowles:

Elan Vital, Inc., a Colorado nonprofit organization, doing business as Visions International ('Visions'), hereby authorizes the Blyssville Resource Group ('BRG') to exhibit in public audio and video recordings (individually, the 'Work;' collectively, the 'Works') in the City of Blyssville for a period of one (1) year. The Works relate to the performance of Maharaji, including but not limited to speeches, discourses, quotes, music, poetry, literary compositions, lectures, conferences and similar matters of Maharaji. In exchange for the right to exhibit the Works, BRG shall pay Visions the sum of $ _____ per month.

The term of this agreement shall be automatically extended for additional periods of one (1) year, unless BRG is notified in writing by Visions thirty (30) days prior to the expiration of the term.

BRG may not charge any admission fees with respect to the exhibition of any of the Works.
On behalf of BRG, you acknowledge that the Works are copyrighted by Visions. You agree that BRG will take no action which might infringe Visions' copyright. If

BRG may not duplicate, reproduce, edit, modify, alter, add to or change any of the Works provided to it for exhibition and screening by Visions. BRG may not sell, distribute or otherwise transfer any of the Works provided to it for screening. At Visions' request, BRG shall promptly return the Works, at BRG's expense, all Works provided to BRG by Visions for exhibition.

From time to time, Elan Vital/Visions may provide guidelines for setup, safety, format, and use of the Works at local video events. BRG acknowledges that its use of the Works is subject to quality control by Visions and agrees to implement and follow any such guidelines.

If you resign or are replaced as the BRG contact, please be sure this letter agreement and any guidelines given you pursuant to it are given to your successor.

Very truly yours,
ELAN VITAL, INC. doing business
as VISIONS INTERNATIONAL, a
Colorado nonprofit corporation
By ________ LINDA S. GROSS

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 16:51:27 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Part 3, some comments
Message:
What's the use of that sort of contract?

Beside telling the local responsibles that they have no right whatsoever, that they should blindly obey EV's and Rawat's guidelines, and scaring them?

Having 'that understanding' of course, otherwise they wouldn't even be invited to this meeting!

I'm not a lawyer, but my feeling is that this is a totally empty contract on the legal level.

Blyssville should really be Boreville.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:39:51 (GMT)
From: Oshlabaka
Email: jdonohue41@cs.com
To: brian and anyone else
Subject: I like my steak
Message:
I will reitterate my allegation from a previous thread:

Excluding Premie Houses and Ashrams
Maharaj ji never insisted on vegitarianism.

Most Premies are vegitarian.

Maharaj ji never insisted that Premies
refrain from cigarette smoke.

Most Premies are Smoke Free and adimate Anti-Smokers.

Maharaj ji indeed insisted on Premie's to be Drug Free.

In my early Aspirant days I was surrounded by pot smoking
premies.

Maharaj ji indeed insisted that Knowledge not to be used as a wedge between families.

Families indeed broke up over Knowledge.

Maharaj ji consistently and persistently ascerted that Religion is not a conflict with Knowledge. I asked him Myself.

I always suspected that Many premies considered, at some level,
the Maharaj ji-Knowledge Package to be a Hippy Rebel Thing.

I always loved my steak,
I smoke like a chimney,
I go to church and I Love Jesus,

And I always caught Hell for Not Conforming--Even thought the Initiators Never Insisted that I do.

Maharaj ji Has Good Concrete Reasons Why He tightened up on how Knowledge is Presented. Satsang by premies have always been diluted with opinion and misrepresentation. People in your own Forum have even gone so far as mis-describing Meditation Techniques while at the same time confident that they practice it themselves, without Maharaj ji. Knowledge IS Maharaj ji's Responsibility. AND HE IS TAKING CONTROL and making us all one

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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 18:35:45 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Oshlabaka
Subject: I like my steak
Message:
AND HE IS TAKING CONTROL and making us all one

Doesn't that statemnt bother you at all? As you said yourself you are a non conformist, isn't there a contradiction here?

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Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 05:57:26 (GMT)
From: Oshlabaka
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I like my steak
Message:
Taking the helm of my spiritural Journey... not my thoughts, tastes, and earthly desires.
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Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 13:30:49 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Oshlabaka
Subject: ... enough to sell your soul?
Message:
The Zen Master warns: “If you meet Buddha on the road, kill him immediately!”

'This admonition points up that no meaning that comes from outside ourselves is real. The Buddhahood of each of us has already been obtained. We need only recognize it. Killing the Buddha on the road means destroying the hope that anything outside of ourselves can be our master. We must each give up the master without giving up the search. The importance of things lies in the way we have learned to think about them. How often we make circumstances our prison and other people our jailers! At our best we take full responsibility for what we do and what we choose not to do. The most important struggles take place within the self.'


Some of the 927 Eternal Truths:

18. If you have a hero, look again: you have diminished yourself in some way.
.

20. All evil is potential vitality in need of transformation.
.

37. It is most important to run out of scapegoats.
.

40. All of the significant battles are waged within the self.
.

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Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 17:19:26 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: cqg
Subject: ... enough to sell your soul?
Message:
Good one!
and thos guy also seems to think ( oh think! that means mind bad bad bad) that spritual is separate from body and emaotion
good luck with that one huh?
:)
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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 15:06:14 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Oshlabaka
Subject: I like my steak
Message:
Osh: you stated, '...Satsang by premies have always been diluted with opinion and misrepresentation....' You are right! Premies were parroting (and still are parroting) that which they were TOLD by their master and by the mahatmas (not always in perfect agreement, by the way). SO.... they weren't speaking from personal experience (most of the time, I suspect).

Now, as to the 'mis-describing' the techniques, on this I must disagree. Those were the techniques as originally taught. JM's website has the techniques displayed in photos, as well (including written descriptions). Over time, they actually changed!!!!!!! The recent premies describe techniques that don't require, for instance, actual pressure be placed on the eyes. When I was taught, by Rajeshwar (who, at the time, was in almost continuous physical contact with M), pressure was MOST DEFINITELY applied. Since Rajeshwar was so close to M, you would think that he had the techniques correct, right? So, which is correct? Actually, I went thru a K review sometime later and that particular technique had already been changed to the way it is today. Our verbal descriptions of the techniques are usually abbreviated, but never have I heard anyone describe them incorrectly. The techniques have CHANGED over time!!!!

Anyone who has been initiated would describe the techniques differently because they have changed..... So if you see inconsistency, what you are actually seeing is the differences in the way the techniques have been taught (over time).

Personally, I believe the 'light' technique was changed because of the possibility of physical damage and M would be legally responsible for it (in the US, anyway).

BTW, I like steak, too! Particularly if it came from an elk!

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 16:57:35 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Never touch the stuff
Message:
And with the state of British beef, perhaps it's best. I don't think Maharaji was ever responsible for the techniques. The knowledge was cobbled together by a group of Mahatmas before he came to the West.

Mahatmas tought the techniques and often gave slightly different versions of them. When I received knowledge from Prakash Bai Ji in 1972, she never even mentioned any 'so hung' divine word but simply spoke about the breath. Also, she never explained the nectar technique which I didn't learn about until much later from a fellow premie.

You and I both know that the mantra going around in the early seventies was that the knowledge was not the techniques. It was Goo Mraaji's grace which was imparted by his divine mahatma who was a divine channel for his grace. You don't hear much talk about that sort of thing now.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 11:57:03 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Oshlabaka
Subject: I like my steak
Message:
What makes Maharaji more of an expert on Knowledge than you? How long have you had Knowledge, 25, 30 years? Don't you think you know as much as he does by now? Why should he know more than you? And why, now, is he the only one who gives satsang? Maybe 25 years ago you'd have a point that premies were too new to it to give a fair representation of Knowledge. But when do you suppose you'll be wise enough to give such representation? Should Maharaji EVER trust his premies to, no matter how long they've had Knowledge nor no matter how diligently they practice? The way you talk about Maharaji, I'd think you were in a cult or something.
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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 03:26:56 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I like my steak
Message:
Dear Jerry,
Hey, good to 'see' you. :) I like your post, good point. God, 25-30 years IS a long time to do anything. You would have to have some kind of expertise going wouldn't you. That or realize it ain't workin' and get out.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 20:32:01 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: I just wanna be dust
Message:
Good point yourself, Robyn:) But as any premie knows, or SHOULD know, only the master knows shit from shinola. I just want to be dust at his feet. Unlike Mel and Hal, I've at least learned what it's all about. Silly Mel. Dodo bird Hal. They think it's about meditation. Ha ha ha. Ho ho ho. Talk about being slow. And if they don't believe me, they should ask Maharaji. He's only been saying so since he became God for God's sake. Some guys. They just never learn.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 18:57:28 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Jerry
Subject: Is that THE Jerry?
Message:
Hi - good to see you, Jerry

As you can see all your fellow ex-ex-premie-forumites including VP, Mike, Sir Dave, Helen, Katie, Jim etc., have found this great new place to gather. It is called - er - 'the ex-premie forum'. Stick around, but be warned - you might find it somewhat addictive...:)

As for me, I reckon it is time I slunk back into the woodwork.. Seeya around.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 19:13:24 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: He he he he
Message:
Yeah..... we're back and we're just as obnoxious as ever... he he he :-) Must be that elk hunt I went on..... you know.... building up more karma and stuff. I guess I'm going to have to 'go around again, after all!' Damned karmic wheel of birth-death-rebirth..... :-)

Seriously, Hi Jerry & welcome back!

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 19:35:48 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Hi Nige, Mike
Message:
Yeah, this is THE Jerry, posting on the forum when I should be working, again. I'll try to be good this time and get some work done now and then. But the truth is, ever since I've become an ex, this is the swingingest place in town.

Good to hear from you guys again.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 20:35:37 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Hi Jerry
Message:
Good to see you :).

Ms. K. (a.k.a. Katie)

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 21:45:16 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: Hi Katie
Message:
Hi Katie, or Ms. K if you prefer. Good to see you again, too :)
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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 22:28:19 (GMT)
From: Ms. K/Katie
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Hi Katie
Message:
Hi Jerry -
Well, like they say in Virginia: 'You can call me anything you want - just don't call me late for supper.' Crude, but effective.

Ms. K. is my nickname at work - my family calls me 'Mish' or 'Mischa', my friends' kids call me 'Miss Katie', one of my exes calls me 'Doll', and you can call me 'Katie' if you want. I just wanted to get rid of the 'Katie' persona here (if possible), and also avoid the mix-up that's occured many times with the two 'Katie''s on this site.

Hope you're doing well, Jerry :) -
Love,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 23:59:01 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Ms. K/Katie
Subject: Har har har
Message:
Katie, me lass.... Arrrr, I got one by ye..... Thar be candles on me cake today and I snuck it by yer blind-side. (must be that eye-patch, arrr). By the time ye reads this, the day will be past.... alas! (I mean....arrrrrr) :-)
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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 01:12:31 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Hey, that's Robyn's job!
Message:
Happy birthday, Mike (you Aquarian, you!). I'm e-mailing Robyn right away, too - so watch it, boy!
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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 02:18:21 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: Uh, oh... I mean arrrr (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 05:30:20 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Oshlabaka
Subject: I like my steak too
Message:
Osh,

you said:

People in your own Forum have even gone so far as mis-describing Meditation Techniques while at the same time confident that they practice it themselves, without Maharaj ji. Knowledge IS Maharaj ji's Responsibility.

Knowledge IS Maharaji's responsability, only, I repeat, ONLY because he has put that idea in premies head, why? His father put it in his? Yes! Gurus like him want you to depend on them. They need you. They need your devotion. If there is nobody to adore there is no cult. But now that I remember, in one of his videos he says that K. is YOUR responsibility. He say many things, in diferent ways, just to keep everybody confused about him. If you become a good listener, you'll see how he shifts stories, and is no lila-just lies-, to fit the ocassion. Is time to wake up, brother/sister! He is lying to you. He's fake.

AND HE IS TAKING CONTROL and making us all one

I do not believe he's making all one. That is a lie. Premies fight more than non premies, especially the ones around him. That's a statement from the 70's, when he was lying the most!! You still believe that? Do you believe too that as he says, only few are ever going to realize what Knowledge is?

Common...The guy changes his story so often that I am surprised you still haven't figured that out: how often do you watch his videos? He says in his journey that he never wanted to be a leader, but you contadict your master saying that he's in control? Lately he says that all is about you. He is going to get mad at you, and you know what happen when Guru gets mad...Just kidding. Nothing happens. Nothing.

I like your candour, it reminds me of me, when I was like you.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 06:46:13 (GMT)
From: Oshlabaka
Email: jdonohue41@cs.com
To: SB
Subject: I like my steak too
Message:
Ill answer your question and Ill ask that you stop ditching My peeve. Or were you possibly one of those hippie rebels I mentioned?!

Once apon an time there was a man named Prempal Rawat. There was a divine escence. That escence gave him a job. With that job came a title. That title and escence is Maharaj ji. I never met Mr Rawat. Don't know who he is and don't care.All I know is that he likes fast cars. Maharaj ji does't need a car.

Previously I gave you a peeve, do you agree with it, admit you were a part of it, or thought it turned you off too???!!!

Come on EX-PREMES IM GIVING YOU AMMO! Take it!!!!!

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 15:50:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Oshlabaka
Subject: Y r u doing this? (yawn..)
Message:
What's up? Bored?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:48:28 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Oshlabaka
Subject: I like my steak
Message:
Osh,

There are many mistakes in your claims. Maharaji did insist on vegetarianism, although he changed his mind later. He did encourage the breakup of families, and is certainly against aspirants having a religion (at least in the west).

Could I ask you - do you have any criticisms of Maharaji? Do you think he is a normal human being, or do you think he is somehow superior to the rest of us?

John.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:32:43 (GMT)
From: Sir David
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Prefered to have been his ally
Message:
A young, arrogant boy comes to the West when the hippy culture is looking for the next step. But it was more Maharaji's mahatmas and a few western devotees who set the whole thing going in the west and got people to believe that Maharaji was the Lord.

It was these super-premies who always paved the way for Maharaji to take control. Without them he would have been nothing in the west.

I don't think Maharaji is bad or evil. He always must have been confused and has often projected that confusion onto his devotees. Yes he is arrogant but it is one of life's laws of the jungle that the arrogant and the blindly audacous, do well, for a while at least until people get wise to them. And yes he has often been cruel. Perhaps he will come to regret that, as we all do in time.

Maharaji probably is very annoyed at the presence of my website on the net. And I have to say that I do not maintain that site out of malace but really because I don't want anyone else to be deluded into thinking Maharaji is anything other than what he is. I wish I never had to put the site there, it is not a joyfull task.

As a man, Maharaji may have the best of everything but he still shits like the rest of us and sweats when he gets hot. But his striving for ever more money is an endless road that has led him to no greater happiness. He's missed the point of his own message.

He has proven to be too wrapped up in himself to notice what really happened. Therefore, he is to be sympathised with. He is a phenomenon that could only have happened in the latter half of the twentieth century. The internet has now put an end to such delusion.

The fact that Maharaji cannot reach out and make amends with the people who once followed him, shows that he has not felt something, that he may be too involved with his own trip to realise or see the people he affected.

He retreats into his ivory tower when it would have been better for him to move forward and step down. He is unable to communicate with the people who were his devotees. He does not know how to deal with it all. His advisors lack vision and courage to tell Maharaji what would be the best way forward. He has never got the best advice and is surrounded by 'yes men'.

Maharaji himself will admit that he was a unique phenominon. He was pushed forward into the limelight at a very early age and did remarkably well. But he got lost along the way. Doesn't that just happen to the best of us.

I hope that some day, Maharaji will feel the feelings that he has missed out on and know more what it to be an ordinary human. It is the only way that it is all going to make sense to him. Now I see Maharaji as just an ordanary, extraordinary individual who has tried and got lost in the jungle. As myself, I have been through a lot and can appreciate what he has been through and will still go through.

And for this I say; Maharaji is just a mere human, like us all. He is not a demon but someone who got lost along the way.

Money, power and all of these things amount to nothing when the chips are down. Perhaps he knows this. But Maharaji, it is sad that it should have turned out this way, isn't it; with half of your devotees baying for your blood. I hope that as the page is turned, the story will take a different course. And then, all of this will have been worthwhile and we all will have learned something from it and be better and closer to each other because of it.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 23:54:22 (GMT)
From: Mantis
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Fuck you, you crybaby!
Message:
Sure maharaji had a wierd upbringing! So what? Was he ever raped or beaten or abused? He is still looking for ways to make money off of premies. He may need therapy but he gets no sympathy from me. My life has been much, much worse than his (I was raped and beaten and abused) and I do not con people. So fuck you and fuck him. Get real. If you want to do some good, provide support for the people maharaji has harmed. They need your understanding more than that fat ass phony!

And fuck you Roger for making Sir Shithead David's post a best. What the hell happened to you? Getting a bit soft, eh?

Ahhh...feels soooo good to vent! :-)

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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 07:24:29 (GMT)
From: Sir David
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Mantis
Subject: Fuck you, you crybaby!
Message:
It looks like I have helped you already, since you enjoyed venting your abuse at me. Whenever people do that on this forum, I can never relate that they are actually talking to me. They're getting abusuve towards an image they have of a character called Sir David. It's clearly not me they're getting angry with.

I have never met you so I can't express any particular feeling there. But I have met Maharaji and was around him quite a lot when he was a teenager. Therefore, I am qualified to give my view based upon the Maharaji I once knew. Of course, some people won't agree with me but they have to understand that there's no common view here; we are not in a cult and there are no rules.

If a person loves Maharaji from a distance and gives up their relationships for that distant love - well I think that's a bad thing. But if a person (myself) does not hate Maharaji but tries to understand what makes him tick, then I think that's productive.

In the end, we're all trying to make sense of what has happened to us and understand why it happened. By the way, are you a male or a female? I ask because Jim refered to you as a male.

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Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 08:27:48 (GMT)
From: Mantis
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Fuck you, you crybaby!
Message:
Yes I am talking to you, Sir David. It makes little difference what nom deguerre you choose. We are both using a psuedonym to allow us more freedom of expression. As Mantis I feel free to bite your head off while fucking with your inconsistancies and or emotions.

I well understand that the path to healing and recovery from abuse requires at some point that we learn to understand and forgive our abuser. Your post may be interpreted as an attempt to understand the underlying causes of maharaji's actions and to share that understanding with all of us recovering from cult/guru abuse.

Forgive, yes, if you will, but do not forget. Do not allow yourself to shift the blame for maharaji's actions from maharaji to some set of 'super premies and mahatmas' or the so called 'holy family'. Maharaji is and was the titular head of dlm/ev. He called the shots and set the tone. He is the one who must bear the fruit of his actions should an accounting be made. If any of his followers are culpable, they should stand accomplis and responsible. He is not the little teen-ager you thought you knew!

You state that the phenomenon of maharaji could only happen in the latter part of the 20th century but now the internet will prevent that sort of thing from happening again. Wrong, Sir Jocko! It is still happening today in this new century. Why? Well, what was that saying of P.T. Barnum's? Something about a sucker being born in a minute? Or once a minute is born then you have a sucker! Or you're a sucker born this minute? There's one minute born when you suck on this, baby!

Step right up and see the two headed god! He's human! He's divine! He's everything you need! Yes! Ladies and Gentlemen there is nothing like it in the known universe! How much are we asking for this stupendous opportunity? Why just lay your life on the line and you'll be surprised at how much you'll get in return! Now. Who'll be the first? You, madam? Or, perhaps you, sir! Step right this way!

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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 07:01:57 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Mantis
Subject: Aren't I entitled to a little
Message:
getting soft once in awhile instead of always be so damn hard and rigid?

I was raped when I was up the river in the big house. It cost me another two years for a bogus manslaughter beef. People crack their heads open everyday when they slip and fall in their bathtubs or showers. So what that I bumped into the guy. I'm just a little clumsy, that's all.

I ain't nobody's punk. I am the big burly Daddy all the way.

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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 02:31:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Mantis
Subject: Announcing the Hate Forum!
Message:
Mantis, John,

I agree that it's terribly traumatic to see Maharaji condoned even slightly like this. And yet this shit happens all the time. Face it, you never know when someone's going to post something soft. You just never know.

So that's why Katie and I have started a forum for exes who really want to give Maharaji shit. It's called the Hate Forum (get it?) and anyone can join providing the current members -- Katie and I so far -- think your heart is full of ... that's right, hate. If you're interested email Katie at Katie@HamsterHate.com. Next three members get to be FA's.

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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 14:29:46 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I hate hate! (nt)
Message:
I'm starting a hate group for people who hate hate.
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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 19:14:47 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: I hate hate! membership=none?
Message:
I hate hate! membership=none?

You haven't quite got the hang of this paradox thing, have you, Dep?

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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 08:57:52 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You'll have to FA it!
Message:
I know something about this.
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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 06:44:27 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks a LOT, Jim!
Message:
I've already gotten six e-mails from people wanting to know where they can sign up for the Hate Forum. They all insist that you be the FA, though :).

Seriously, re the sentiments expressed in David's contrarian post: I don't agree with everything he said, but I have had similar thoughts myself - albeit less compassionate than those expressed in David's post - possibly as a result of being immersed in ex-premie.org for the last two years. IMHO, Maharaji needs to be put in the proper perspective, and one of the reasons I liked David's post was because it expressed a perspective that's not often heard on this forum.

And besides, if Roger and I actually agree on something, doesn't that automatically make it **BEST** (snicker)?

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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 06:54:57 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Ms. K
Subject: YEAH! And...
Message:
I think that there is some money to be made on this Hate Forum. People either want sex or they want hate. And, I'm sure that if we can convince them that there is no difference between the two that it will be very easy to convince them to pay money for their fair share of abuse and hate. After all, most of them are already paying for the prior or else they're taking it out on their pets and house plants.

You wouldn't believe all the offers and fan mail I've been getting lately from Dominatrixes and their counterparts.

Katie, how about you and Jim paying me a per visit fee and a retainer. In return I will guarantee that I'll stir up some real anger and hate on the slow days.

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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 07:18:46 (GMT)
From: Ms. K.
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: YEAH! And...
Message:
Since Jim has been unanimously elected as the new Hate Forum Administrator, he will have to carefully consider your application and decide if you are hateful enough. (Obviously, he thinks I already qualify.) Bribes, threats, hate mail, and other inducements will be accepted at the weekly FA & ex-FA support group meeting.
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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 00:05:33 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Mantis
Subject: Fuck you, you crybaby!
Message:
I feel I must express some concord with Mantis's point of view.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 05:59:59 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Sir David
Subject: Prefered to have been his ally
Message:
Sir Dave's post was very touching and I must agree with many of his points.

At times as the proprietor of the very successful House of Maharaji Drek I often wonder about the possible effect on Maharaji and, even more, his family. It must be difficult to see one's father be so lambasted. And I feel for Maharaji in the same way I feel for any person who might be suffering. To tell the truth I really don't know that much about Maharaji as a person. He was often very funny and charismatic at programs. What he is like in private I don't know much other than some of what has been repeated on these pages. And what I often read is that Maharaji is more like any human being instead of the Lord of the Universe that he or we or they portrayed him to be.

At times writing and 'publishing' such nastiness aimed at Maharaji has been cathartic and has helped in my own personal effort to break free of too many years of cult thinking that had been like being hobbled in life. Were those philosophies my own, Maharaji's or the other cult members or the PAMs.

I believe that much of the iron fisted grip that is exerted by Maharaji & Company is by necessity for the purpose of maintaining the mystique and the business empire.

In my 'research' into the business empire I have seen the same names again and again. I must presume that some of these people have done very well by being players in the game. And the other side of the coin is that they have much to lose in a personal and financial way if the empire comes to a close. Actually, at this point in time I would surmise that there are few windfall opportunities for the camp followers to partake in for a number of reasons.

First, it would appear that there is very little growth in the organization that makes opportunities readily available.

Second, it appears that there is no pool of premies or slaves to ensnare in money making outside non-Maharaji enterprises.

Third, Maharaji does not appear to be in an expansive move to create additional organizations or money making entities. Yes, there is or is that 'was' Visions International with its videos and trinkets. However, based on the fire sale prices this enterprise seems to be running out of steam and without new members the demand for its products has been satisfied. Visions has a limited universe of customers compared to Amazon.com.

(By the way don't buy from Amazon.com. They treat their employees like shit. Many people who work there hate it so much that as soon as their stock options fully vest they will be gone. The COO, not Jeff Bezos, is a complete arrogant idiot who as a cost cutting measure eliminated all little niceties like aspirin and tissue paper and things of that nature. I would imagine that the toilet paper rolls have been replaced with those single tissue at a time dispensers. When Mr. New COO arrived at Amazon he thought that he was some kind of celebrity and he parked his car in a clearly marked no parking zone and his car was ticketed or maybe even towed away and he had a cow about it. This was in the national press. Talk about arrogant.)

Fourth, it is my guess, and I could be wrong, that the need and the constant clamoring for money is to simply allow Maharaji & Company to meet all of its scheduled payments and to keep his household and organization afloat. It might be that the organization experienced some renewed growth with the advent of the videos and they geared up and over expanded. For example, Maharaji moved up from a Lear Jet to something else for a very short amount of time and then moved up to a very expensive Gulfstream IV. There was also at this time a major expansion on the Malibu residence which must have cost millions and millions. I believe that with the increased overhead and the disappointing lack of membership the operation might be into some very lean times. Thus, there would be very few opportunities for side ventures available to the loyal PAMs.

Fifth, I think that the bulk of sending off monies to side ventures and the subsequent enrichment of PAMs is a thing of the past. What's been divvied up has already been so. What's done is done. You either got a piece of the premie slave pie or you didn't. All that is left now is consulting and selling life insurance to your premie friends. Doesn't sound that lucrative to me.

I feel that as awful as the things we say on the forums might get and as nasty as some of the website may be, the purpose might be to help others avoid falling into the same mind control brainwashed trap that we were in. And, maybe these people won't lose as much of their lives and their time and money to something that has long been irresponsibly out of control.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 14:33:13 (GMT)
From: Ms. K.
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Sir David's post for **BEST**?
Message:
Well-written and sincerely expressed! Although his sentiments were not something that everyone on this forum will necessarily agree with, I still think it's a great post.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 17:43:51 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Ms. K.
Subject: **BEST**
Message:
***BEST***

I agree.

Even after Humpty Dumpty took his great fall and broke his crown there was a tear in his eye.

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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 07:32:10 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Thanks Katie & Roger (nt)
Message:
h
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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 15:56:38 (GMT)
From: Ralph Delp
Email: None
To: Ms. K.
Subject: Maudlin at best.
Message:
OK so M's a regular guy. Not!! He knows exactly what he's doing, has had high powered advice and utilizes the very latest technology and psychological methods to hypnotize, ensnare, enslave and squeeze every last dime out of his dupes. The fucker is EVIL! Evil exists and he personifies it. I may feel some sympathy for his immediate family but not him. Get real, Dave. You're sounding like some new age powder puff.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:45:06 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Can't someone become 'bad'?
Message:
David,

There's no question that Maharaji didn't plot to be a cult leader in the cradle. Yes, he was a cute kid. Aren't we all? But that doesn't mean that he hasn't evolved into an evil man. I think that the iron-grip he has on all expression or information flow in the cult more than proves that, at this point anyway, he's absolutely indifferent to the real fate of his followers. So long as they follow (i.e. give) he'll lead (i.e. take). No, I think he has indeed become an evil person.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 15:01:12 (GMT)
From: Sir David
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Can't someone become 'bad'?
Message:
Isn't it his paranoia which has led to him trying to control the information within the cult? With his 'double life' he has good reason to become paranoid that people might find out that he's just an ordinary person and not a master of life.

But I think he demonstrates all along his lack of understanding of other people. That's where we think differently. I don't think he's evil but I do think he's unable to come to terms with and face his accusers. It is not something he's ever learned to do.

He is himself the result of being spoilt. The man who is born a god is never going to understand those people who look up to him as their god. Sure he'll exploit them but he will remain very distant from them. For example, could you imagine Maharaji going to some very ordinary Mr and Mrs Premie's house for dinner? Or letting Joe Blow premies all come round to his house for tea and a game of Monopoly? For him, such a thing would be unthinkable which shows that he's created a huge gulf between himself and other people.

Perhaps that gulf was created for him. It's very hard to bridge that gulf once it's there. And he has done the opposite now and retreated. The best thing for him would have been to step down off the stage and sit down with the premies in the audience and listen to them give satsang, or just sit and chat about everything with them.

But to continue the Master act, is surely a show with a limited run.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 08:25:59 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: Loafji@yahoo.com
To: Jim
Subject: Can't someone become 'bad'?
Message:
Its different for him - power corrupts... and as insulated as he is within his own belief system and social status - he is no different (in principle) from the Royal Family. The Queen gets up in the morning and shaves the Queen's face... just as m does the Living Master's.

In such a climate - arrogance breeds. Not his fault, nor can he voluntarily stop it - but rather it will (and has) taken its own gentle organic course.

No need for ill feeling... all things must change.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 03:00:10 (GMT)
From: xp
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Elan Vital is a church
Message:
www.GuidStar.org has an entry on Elan Vital, which shows that it is not required to file an annual return with the IRS because it is a church. GuideStar has no information on Elan Vital in their database.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 03:40:49 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: xp
Subject: Elan Vital is a church!
Message:
A church. Would you believe it? I did not know that I belonged to a church? Did you? Shame is a word that Maharaji and Co. do not know. What is taking so long to the IRS to catch up with the truth??
Money for propagation! The brat always wants something more, and the stupid premies around him go for it. David Smith, you suck!!
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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 21:50:02 (GMT)
From: SB/shifting
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Cults
Message:
Maharaji are you aware? You are the lider of a cult, and also a customer.

from:http://www.freedomofmind.com/resource/problems.htm

Common psychological problems
of victims of cult mind control

1. extreme identity confusion
2. dissociative states - 'floating'(getting triggered back into cult mode)
3. panic and anxiety attacks
4. depression
5. Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder ( P.T.S.D.)
6. psychosomatic symptoms (headaches, backaches, asthma, skin problems)
7. problems with decision-making- dependency
8. retarded psychological development- loss of psychological power
9. guilt
10. fear
11. sleep disorders/ nightmares
12. eating disorders
13. sexuality problems
14. lack of trust/ fear of intimacy and commitment- people work
15. harassment and threat
16. grieving loss of friends, family
17. spiritual 'rape'of the soul

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 22:17:07 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: SB/shifting
Subject: Cults
Message:

Thanks shifting.

I once had a so-called premie 'friend' tell me

'how do you know you might have been even worse if you hadn't found Maharaji?'

I think you just answered THAT question for me. And the answer is,

'you know what? there is no way to answer that BUT the odds are I may have had a much better chance of finding myself and getting help for myself at least 25 years earlier if I hadn't gotten side stepped and more f#$#3ed up by a cult.'

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 00:04:32 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Brainwashing
Message:
Right on. The chains were real, and we couldn't even see them.
Such a relief to be able to see his trip for what really is.

How are you girl?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 00:30:05 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Brainwashing
Message:
Hi SB

I'm doing a LOT better since last we talked on line.
How are you doing? You sound very strong and good.

Things have leveled out.

I'm more productive at work. Happier im my marriage.

The real stuff yoo know? Getting away from the crazy fantasy stuff although it will always be a part of me, but I am learning that I can KEEP it without self destructing.

That's another thing about the cult brainwashing. It deceived me in my artistic side I think SB. I think it was part of what fed me -- the sick shit that in order to be creative I had to seek the darkness and deny anything mainstream or 'seemingly' healthy or good for me.
these sick thoughts were already in me from childhood I admit.

It's just that HIS rhethoric fed it. It certainly didn't discount it! Especially in the 70's when I was most imprssionable.
Yes your subject line brainwashing is very apt.
thank you again.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 03:23:53 (GMT)
From: SB/Sh
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Brainwashing
Message:
Thanks for asking. Yes, I am doing much better. I can't explain what happened. Oh well..

You say:

I'm more productive at work. Happier im my marriage.

The real stuff yoo know? Getting away from the crazy fantasy stuff although it will always be a part of me, but I am learning that I can KEEP it without self destructing.

That is why exes are so angry, for coming to the realization that so many years were invested following a stupid Guru who doesn't know what in the hell he's talking about, and in the process of listening to his crap, we forgot to live 'the real stuff'. At least you have a husband! :):):)

Screw him!! Endlesly!! Be happy that you are out. How would you like to be Guru Charanand? hahahaha Thinking about that brings me instant 'bliss'.

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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 05:42:33 (GMT)
From: me again
Email: None
To: SB/Sh
Subject: just had to SB
Message:
I'm taking this out of context SB
I couldn't resist.
Your Quote in part only:

At least you have a husband! :):):)
.............
Screw him!! Endlesly!!

It was too cute. I think it's good advice. Ever consider a career in marriage counseling?

selene - rebelling from accusations of frivilous posts (not accused by you)

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 03:46:33 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: SB/Sh
Subject: Brainwashing
Message:
Yeah, or Fakirinand? Jugdeo? Or you know even worse? the white wzshed american ex initiators selling textbooks like real poeple now instead of demi gods. HA welcome to the machine guys.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 03:58:44 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Brainwashing
Message:
hahahaha. Selene, you are funny! Know that I always enjoy your posts. I always read them. Even that you thought that I was a premie. ;)
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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:04:34 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Brainwashing
Message:
Nope wasn't me! I nwver thought that . I just don't always make sense when I post. Especially late at night when the Topamax kicks in.
I like you too SB. A lot.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:12:41 (GMT)
From: confused ?
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Brainwashing
Message:
uh or did I? did I really accuse you of being a premie once?
ick! I'm sorry if I did!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 05:05:49 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: confused ?
Subject: no problem ;)
Message:
I was just kidding, Selene? Remember I told you then that I understood?
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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 20:32:03 (GMT)
From: E.Vital desperation $
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji you are so cheap!!
Message:
Come out to the open you coward!! You are behind Elan Vital, aren't you? Some of us know that to be true. Let us hear it from you, you greedy bastard!! All those phony links. Money hunger, perhaps?

IRS is on its way, don't you worry. You changed the song but the paper trail you left is still around.

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 20:44:34 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: E.Vital desperation $
Subject: toilet paper trail on his shoe
Message:
yeah, his paper trail is like the classic comedy sketch of someone walking out of a restroom with a long trail of toilet paper stuck the their shoe
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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 19:49:34 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Margolis Palm Beach Empire
Message:
Below (in red) is a PR service that Lynn J. Margolis offers from her own business webpage, LJ Margolis, Public Relations Consultant of Palm Beach, Florida.

Crisis Management Proactive Critical Communications

Sure, it don't mean a thing. And what the heck is 'Crisis Management Proactive Critical Communications' anyway? Golleeeeee!

Who would be the perfect client to practice this PR art of 'Crisis Management' or the more strategic 'Crisis Management Proactive Critical Communications'? You bet! Guru Maharaj Ji aka Maharaji. No better client for this type of PR work. Sure, I don't know whether Maharaji has ever been Lynn's client as her webpage listing her clients is broken.

Who was Dennis Marciniak (sp?)? Apparently Lynn worked as his assistant in the early Denver days.

Yes, this is Lynn Margolis, 1996 Vice-President, Public Relations Society of America, Palm Beach Chapter.

I know that somewhere her name or the Margolis name is in some Maharaji corporate data file. My research assistants are working on that now.

Be sure to check out the photo of Lynn and take notice of the gold tie she's wearing. I'd bet that fine tie once belonged to Maharaji. If the photo or page is unavailable try this one.

And, I'm not sure what this is, but www.ljpr.com might be Lynn's homepage. The only interesting thing is that it is hosted on BellSouth.net. But, as are a lot of people in the Southeast.

Lynn's Clients
Our Clients. . .

The Client List is currently being re-built (all those darn hyperlinks!) please bear with me . . .

Yes, how convenient that those darn hyperlinks are so flaky.

The Computer Guru of Palm Beach, Incorporated

And you will find Mike Margolis and somewhere on this site you will find brother, Jim Margolis. Don't know which is Lynn's husband. Watch out for dead links and HTTP/1.0 403 Access Forbidden as these guys don't seem to know what they're doing.

So, what does it all mean? Nothing really. But something to think about.

You've got your possible suspects, they've got a motive, they've got the expertise, they live in the area where I know that some of the crap has been coming from.

Is there a connection between Andrea Robins and LJ Margolis? Do we even have to ask that question? They are networked premies and they are both in the PR business in the vicinity of Orlando and Palm Beach.

Is there a connection with these characters to Rob Anderson? Or is Rob Anderson the same person(s) as Andrea Robins et al.

Who knows, but it sure is something to think about. It's gotta be somebody somewhere and I know that the somewhere is in the Southeast.

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 20:37:28 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Prouty Palm Beach Connection
Message:
Randy Prouty of Palm Beach dissolves United Pathways, Inc.

Here's a bunch of names that I don't know where they came from. But, my brand of yellow journalism doesn't really care too much about protecting the innocent when there's a Great White Whale chomping people up and swallowing them whole.

GRAY, MARTIN
xxxx BAY RD. #424
MIAMI BEACH,

VUKO, JAMES
xxxx BAY RD #1507
MIAMI BEACH, FL

ANCTIL, JOE
xxxx BAY RD. #214
MIAMI BEACH, FL

LASHER, R LEMUEL
xxxx BAY RD #1524
MIAMI BEACH FL,

DYESS, BOOTH
1500 BAY RD #424
MIAMI BEACH FL,

PROUTY, RANDALL H.
xxxx PALM BEACH LAKES BLVD., #220
WEST PALM BEACH, FL 33409

MURPHY, CHRISTINA
xxxx DECKER SCHOOL LANE
MALIBU, CA 90265

EMERSON, JIM
xxx VALLEY LAKE DRIVE
ATLANTA, GA 30087

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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 01:35:09 (GMT)
From: DV
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Prouty Palm Beach Connection
Message:
FYI: At least some of those are very old addresses.
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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 04:07:18 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: DV
Subject: Thats' how it is, unfortunâtly
Message:
Yes, much of the information is outdated and cryptic.

It would take a real expert and a very dedicated effort to get to the bottom of the Maharaji/DLM/Elan Vital labyrinth.

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 20:53:41 (GMT)
From: xp
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Prouty Palm Beach Connection
Message:
I believe Vuko and Dyess are both in the Wash. DC area. I remember a Martin Gray, he liked to talk a lot.
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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 20:08:03 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Dennis Marciniak
Message:
If I remember correctly, Dennis was one of the top officials in DLM at one point. I don't remember what his title was.
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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 21:46:01 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: G
Subject: reminds me of NSA/Ushida
Message:
When we've started talking about it, about 3 years back, Ushida sold his shares all of a sudden.

What's going on ?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 02:13:41 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: reminds me of NSA/Ushida
Message:
I don't know, but I've got this Uchida corporate tidbit, CLEAR RESOURCE CORPORATION
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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 22:07:05 (GMT)
From: xp
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: of interest?
Message:
Roger,
The following may be of interest:
entry at www.sec.gov

What is Onae Trust?
Eric is Reggie's son.

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 23:00:49 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: xp
Subject: Robert A. Jacobs and Onae
Message:
First, you tell me who Eric Brown is and his dad Reggie!

Yeah, we've got some players here! the deLaski father and son team. The omnipresent Robert A. Jacobs representing the Onae Trust has a piece of the action. We've seen the Onae Trust before, offhand, I cannot recall. I would imagine that the Onae Trust might be the vehicle that Maharaji can make his claim to being a successful private investor. More like when they took the private company public they gifted him some stock.


Kenneth E. deLaski................. 39 President, Chief Executive Officer,
Director and Class III Director
NomineeDonald deLaski..................... 65 Chairman of the Board of
Directors, Class II

8 OTHER 5% SHAREHOLDERS: Onae Trust, R.A. Jacobs,
Trustee............... 1,115,000 6.6%
Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy 1 Chase Manhattan Plaza New
York, NY 10005-1413

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 02:23:17 (GMT)
From: xp
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Robert A. Jacobs bio
Message:
Here's the bio on Jacobs from the web site of his law firm.

He has 'extensive experience with ... tax problems of troubled companies.'

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 02:18:51 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Onae, baby names
Message:
from Welcome to the Kabalarian Philosophy! - 400,000 baby names

Onae (male)

Your first name of Onae has given you the vision and foresight to be able to organize others and to hold positions of responsibilities with poise and self-confidence. This name creates an optimistic outlook on life and favourable conditions in your personal affairs. You have the ability to express your thoughts and ideas, and you are friendly, likeable, and generous. You enjoy fun, laughter and congenial association. This name also gives you an appreciation of art, music, drama, or any of the many forms of expression in the arts. Since you are quick and fluent in your expression, you have to guard against boastfulness or dominating a situation. You are likely a big eater, requiring heavy foods to satisfy your appetite. Overeating can affect the bloodstream, causing it to become overheated. In turn, skin problems could result. There could also be weaknesses in the generative organs.
Onae, the brief analysis of this baby name is not complete. There are many additional factors (nicknames, last name, names and initials in your business signature, and birthdate, etc.) to be considered, or that affect your personality and life. A personalized Name Report™ will give you a comprehensive description of your unique abilities, inner potential, strengths and weaknesses, compatibility in personal and business relationships, career aptitudes, health, and degree of happiness and success.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 02:27:17 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Onae, Delteck, Jacobs & SEC
Message:
SEC Info - Deltek Systems Inc - DEF 14A - For 5/28/98
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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 02:39:37 (GMT)
From: MC WA Div HQ
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Classified-- Eyes Only Roger
Message:
Roger--Will make contact tomorrow over secured land line tomorrow approx 1000 hours stop Must receive OK from HMFIC for North/ South transfer stop Won't know until later tonight as the chief is out on the town tonight and will be unavailable for comment stop Ten four if you Roger, Roger stop Over and out
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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 21:03:45 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: MC WA Div HQ
Subject: over and out? you mean OUT(nt)
Message:
as in OUT
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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 01:02:18 (GMT)
From: xp
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Robert A. Jacobs and Onae
Message:
There are some posts here in the archives about Reggie Brown, I forget where. He was high up in the Carter administration. He left his job to work at Decca and he and his family moved from the DC area to Florida. According to the posts, the housing situation was pretty poor, Reggie was paid poorly, and he was doing work below his level of ability. Now Eric has a very good job (and quite a bit of stock) with Deltek.

A number of big shot premies ended up working at Deltek, including (I believe) Ira Woods and this big funny guy -- I forget his name -- who was the mc at a one day program once. I think he lived in New York or New Jersey before moving down to the DC area.

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 16:54:05 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Where does the rat take you?
Message:
I was just into translating some stuff for the ‘French side’ of my website.

Among other things, a significant one struck me again.
How many times have we heard him say stuff like this ?

But one thing you should know that my plans are not small, petty or insignificant. Had they been smaller or trivial, then maybe people here would have completed them easily by now. But I don't know why is it so with me that the thing I do once, I do not have the inclination to repeat it again. That should be better and nicer next time it is done. And then again that should be still more nicer and excellent. So, there are so many plans to be executed for this place, so that people may come, listen and understand….

That was in November 1990. Remember (recent exes) all these projects he got his organizations and active premies involved at that time. Having ‘Knowledge Centers’ on every continent, in every area. He really got involved in this, and premies gathered a lot of money and spent a lot of energy for these. And then what happened ? For how many years did all this trip last ? 5 or 6 years ? I remember quite some instructors secretly hoping Rawat would need full time instructors again for these centers. And then he dumped all of them….

What the new hot and secret stuff these days ? Team work and trainings ? How many applied ? How many participated in these ? Where do you think this is going to take you ? NOWHERE !

All these mega projects to keep you busy and involved, hoping that ONE DAY propagation will finally start on a strong basis.

Wake up, premie ji, RAWAT IS TAKING YOU NOWHERE !

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 03:13:48 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Where does M take me?
Message:
J-M,

Could you answer a few questions for me?

When I do an hour of meditation first thing in the morning my day has a certain flow to it. It seems that I enjoy myself more, notice the good things that happen and downplay the bad. Work seems a little easier. My relations with others seem to go better. Even my posture is different, I to walk taller. I enjoy my food more and sleep much better that night.

A l'autre cote, when I don't meditate I gets pissed of at insignificant things. Everything seems like an effort or a hustle. My life gets speedier and it all seems like a grind. That night I have trouble going to sleep.

So here are my questions:
1) Why does my life seem so much better when I meditate?
2) Why would I want to stop doing it?

Dep

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:34:58 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Where does M take me?
Message:
Dog,

Carry on meditating of course! Sounds great - I don't do it as often as you, but I think it's a good thing.

Now can we talk about that guru of yours? He has shown you some meditation techniques you could have learnt in many other places, and he keeps asking for money. Now don't tell me he doesn't, or it's for his tours or propagation. Also, don't tell me you're not a devotee - remember, I've been there.

So can you separate the enjoyment you get from meditation from the guru, and really try to think rationally about him? If you can, you will realise he is a fraud, selling the meditation techniques for more than their market value. You've paid your dues, now walk away (but of course carry on meditating!)

John.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 20:03:01 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: M takes a lot of people ...
Message:
Dep, you ask 'Where does M take me?

...down to the ATM to make another withdrawal?

BTW, forgive if intruding into your personal finances, but ... do you donate? Or not?

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 18:26:17 (GMT)
From: Shifting
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Where does the rat take you?
Message:
Jean-Michel wrote:

What the new hot and secret stuff these days ? Team work and trainings ? How many applied ? How many participated in these ? Where do you think this is going to take you ? NOWHERE !

A premie friend of mine went to a 'training' meeting in Chicago last year. Training meeting to learn how to propagate K. Hmmm. and the rumor is that premies left with their heads spinning, from all the stupidity asked by Elan Vital from the participants. Service is call these days participation, known before as service for the Master. They had to pay $75.00 to be there, 'to pay for the costs', you know that crappy twisted story. The premies had to stay for the two days seminar, pay to get there, hotels, and meals. Just to have the 'privilege' to serve 'HIM', like premies talk.

They had to 'pretend' and play roles to learn how to deal with different situations. I heard that that was very funny, and embarrasing for most. The robots have to be reprogrammed.

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 19:38:59 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Shifting
Subject: I've been through this!
Message:
Still into this ?

That's really a significant symptom. Premies are not motivated, and can't propagate your BS system Rawat. Still wondering why ?

There is NO WAY OUT ! This is not the way to recover from an abuse system.

I hope some of the participants will finally try to understand why Rawat's system doesn't work.

Team work to achieve what ? Quietly watch your TV ? Finally reach 'that experience' ?

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 17:10:10 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Where does the rat take you?
Message:
JM: and WHERE DID ALL THE MONEY GO????? Everytime he aanounces these projects, big bucks are collected and then the projects are cancelled. Where's the money? Why does he keep cancelling these projects? Have ANY of these big projects ever been completed? Well, of course WE all know.... projects are just personal fundraisers for the rat and he doesn't even have the guts to ask premies to fund his lifestyle directly. Why doesn't he just come out and say, 'dear premies, my automatic window closers broke and I need them repaired. It's going to cost a million dollars, could you help me?' YEAH, RIGHT!

By the way, your statement should have been, 'Rawat is taking you for a ride!' (and not in one of his luxurious mercedes, either!) he he he :-)

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 18:27:03 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Rat's ride in the Rat's world
Message:
Remind me of that rats' race image he used to quote all the time, openly mocking the premies enjoying the abuse.

I've been enjoying this, my gawd.....

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 16:06:07 (GMT)
From: Mahaha's site
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Looks like a condom!
Message:
What is HE trying to project???

It looks like... Maharaji's subconscient mind was at work while designing it? It looks like a condom! He designed it? Also, did anybody noticed how they are spamming Altavista with their crap?

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 18:12:34 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Mahaha's site
Subject: C what they don't want U to C
Message:
Subject S.B.: See what they don't want you to see

Maharaji's Portal Beta Version 0.9

You bet they've spammed the Search Engines, but good.

A year later I'm still waiting for a response from Alta Vista in regards to my complaint about his spamming there.

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 18:45:14 (GMT)
From: why Altavista allows
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Maharaji spamms good!
Message:
Why is he allowed to do that?

They even have one for the legal terms!!
One for each page of his crappy, pitiful, bastardized message?
The lord of de uni - verse has bad advisers. The spamming looks awful. Well, what do you expect? The ones around him fight with each other all the time which causes them to be unable to be productive. Nobody around him last to long doing anything. But they do spam good though! I bet you, people noticing that are wondering about his spamming motives, and we exes happen to know what they are. Maharaji is trying to put our sites behind.

You can try Maharaji, but we are not going away, ever.

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 18:30:44 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: C what they don't want U to C
Message:
Hey, that needs to be translated !!! I guess the Italian speaking premies might not understand !!!

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 16:18:49 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mahaha's site
Subject: how bizarre! or a toilet bowl
Message:
wit the water flushin donw donw donw
not gold though!
What were they thinking of?
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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 16:27:09 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: help someone
Subject: how bizarre! or a toilet bowl
Message:
I can't spell! it's over.
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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 17:58:35 (GMT)
From: I like that better!!
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: A TOILETTE BOWL !!
Message:
YEAP. Bad taste. Maharaji, you can change it. It looks awful. Honestly. The premies won't complain. When do they? Yes Sir, Yes Sir.....You are such an asshole maharaji.

You have chained the ones you called your family, you... They are like parrots, repeating: I am free, I am free, and you fool, told them a story about chains, and confused them; You got it all backwards, maybe? You, YOU put the chains on people; you do not remove them! People were free and you have enchained them to you. Nobody is free in a cult. You are not free neither, you paranoid fool. If karma exists enjoy being rich, because in the next one you'll be very poor.

You have said many times that the techniques without the grace don't work, just so people have to depend on you? Yes. How convinient you gurus can be. Amazing. But you are not the giver of Grace. You are no God, and you know it! And if you do believe all those grandious beliefs you have, then, you must be admitted immediatly in a Psychiatric Unit.

Let everybody go now. You have lied enough. Redemtion time!

I challenge you, coward, to come forward. Begin to tell people the truth, of how your organizacion works. How do aspirants get to you, maharaji? Tell us about it? Tell us how the manipulation work? Are the 6 months 'preparation' a brainwashing period? How aspirants are to be spied? Tell us why your premies cannot talk, or discuss anything about you with others? Tell us why your followers look so scared and insecure when challenged with questions about you? Tell us why they are terrified and won't dare to talk about your tax-evaders organization? Premies are afraid of you! You DO run Elan Vital. You are the one that makes the decissions. 'Lord'? Yeah, deny it! Your premies, followers DO think you are the lord. I heard yesterday two of them refering of you as Lord.
Well, I said to them, Maharaji has said he is not the Lord, and their response was that you did that, to hide your identity, to reveal Knowledge. Is that true or not? Are you the Lord or not? Your premies are confused about you, not with the techniques that you gurus snatched somewhere, with you. Give the gift and go away. But you know is not a gift. Knowledge as you teach it are the chains that chain a innocent human being to your deceptional beliefs for good.

BTW. You are a toilette bowl. Flush it please?

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 18:16:47 (GMT)
From: Barbie's boyfriend, Ken
Email: None
To: I like that better!!
Subject: IT'S A COCK RING! (nt)
Message:
slip it on
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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 18:18:03 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Barbie's boyfriend, Ken
Subject: IT'S A COCK RING! (nt)
Message:
I know who you are.
(I though of that I admit it. But uh, what's with the .. oh never mind)
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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 19:00:27 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: a cock ring w/ cum gushing nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 19:05:35 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: G
Subject: a cock ring w/ cum gushing nt
Message:
great minds think alike.
Now I have to write a report on which platform to run our webCT server on
(lest premies think our minds were freed up just for this stuff)
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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 19:28:31 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: webCT server? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 19:36:34 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: G
Subject: webCT server?
Message:
geek stuff - unlike many, I *do not* enjoy talking about computer junk. Just do it for the money. Me, I'd rather talk about heh....
this stuff!!
but, somebody's gotta keep me in all this luxury until my husband finishes that CD!
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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 18:57:53 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: All
Subject: It's a hypnosis wheel!
Message:
You are getting sleepy, very sleepy. You are now in outer space.
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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 19:40:24 (GMT)
From: Mahaha's credits page
Email: None
To: all
Subject: descent into the abyss
Message:
Check out m's credits page

It looks like a swirling descent into the darkness of hell.

With the false promise of light at the end of the tunnel.

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 20:00:27 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Mahaha's credits page
Subject: Hellish abyss
Message:
Look at that: It is scarry, I agree.

Do premies follow the guy's mind? Their leader? He hides behind Elan Vital but he is IT! He's the BOOOOOSSSSS.

The symbolisms he uses in his cult are pathetic and explain well his darkness. He lives on hope. He uses cliches and nature to touch people's hearts, and then, he got you! Master-Servant is the end of the game.

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 06:03:17 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Asking for help here! GVN UK
Message:
Ok, I'm working on some stuff that you may or may not care about. However, I don't have the big picture and I don't know all the names and all the players.

This is where you come in.

I've got the following from our Collection of Sacred Corporate Documents collected by Mary M.:

One of my friends emailed me with this tidbit: Also, Randy's wife is Tina Murphy and they now live in Malibu, prior was North Carolina and then West Palm.

Below is the Corporate Document and I've done a search on United Pathways, a Prouty company.

I've got a hit at Global Visions Network (GVN) where it has this:

Gill Wright established GVN in 1996 to create a vehicle for new initiatives in the field of science, human development, entertainment and education. Gill has a background in the fields of integrated medicine, human development, international leadership issues and business ethics. Gill is Director of United Pathways Foundation, a UK registered charity that seeks to unleash the power of human potential by offering 'life skills' training and partnering international community development projects.

On that page are names and pictures. Is this anything or not?


NUM: N46592 ST:FL ACTIVE/FL NON-PROF FLD: 12/24/1991
LAST: NAME CHANGE AMENDMENT FLD: 04/24/1997FEI#: 65-0302723
NAME : UNITED PATHWAYS, INC.NH: 1
PRINCIPAL: C/O RANDALL PROUTY CHANGED: 05/01/96
ADDRESS 2247 PALM BEACH LAKES BLVD., STE 220
WEST PALM BEACH, FL 33409
RA NAME : PROUTY, RANDALL NAME CHG: 05/01/96
RA ADDR : 2247 PALM BEACH LAKES BLVD., STE. 220 ADDR CHG: 05/01/96
WEST PALM BEACH, FL 33409 US
ANN REP : (1996) A 05/01/96 (1997) B 04/01/97 (1998) BN 05/19/98

CORP NUMBER: N46592 CORP NAME: UNITED PATHWAYS, INC.
TITLE: PDS NAME: PROUTY, RANDALL H.
2247 PALM BEACH LAKES BLVD., #220
WEST PALM BEACH, FL 33409
TITLE: D NAME: MURPHY, CHRISTINA
1900 DECKER SCHOOL LANE
MALIBU, CA 90265
TITLE: D NAME: EMERSON, JIM
411 VALLEY LAKE DRIVE
ATLANTA, GA 30087

CORP NUMBER: N46592 CORP STATUS: ACTIVE
FILED DATE : 12/24/1991CORP NAME : UNITED PATHWAYS, INC.
EVENT TYPE FILED EFFECTIVE DESCRIPTION
DATE DATE
------this line break was more than 50 characters and the forum
------software became unhappy ---------------------------------
NAME CHANGE 04/24/1997 OLD NAME WAS : ASSISTCARE, INC.
AMENDMENT

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 13:58:01 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: Check the following links
Message:

Merlin Communications, associated with United Pathways Foundation.

Merlin joins forces with Global Vision Network (GVN)

I don't know if this is leading anywhere or not. Is there really a connection between United Pathways, Inc. and United Pathways Foundation?

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 13:43:09 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: A tangent
Message:
Here's a tangent: I did a search on 'United Pathways', one of the hits was Pathways United. It shows a book called 'Abused Beyond Words', a book on incest, ritual and cult abuse. It was written by a cult abuse survivor.
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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 16:32:40 (GMT)
From: Maybe if I put this here
Email: None
To: G
Subject: people might see what they are
Message:
doing

http://members.tripod.com/~NoColluding/defining.htm

collusion

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 16:44:49 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Maybe if I put this here
Subject: related site
Message:
This might be of interest, especially in the light of the Jagdeo exposure:

Helping Overcome Professional Exploitation

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 07:29:58 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek™
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Roger eDrek™
Subject: More help on Somatics Dettmers
Message:
Ok, here's the deal and it may or may not make sense. If anything it just shows how all these freaky new agey premies are networked and connected and how they influence each other into buying this or that or whatever is hot brand new new age.

Who cares about Somatics?

Well, Andrea Robins, the U.S. PR Officer for Elan Vital, and her husband, Michael own and operate Somatics Solutions, Inc. in Maitland, Florida. And they are franchised to offer Hanna Somatic Education® or they offer this education.

Doing a search on Hanna Somatic Education® I get a whole big list of things to look at.

Ok, here's the big daddy of them all, Eleanor Criswell Hanna, Ed.D. and Associates of the Novato Institute in Novato, CA.

Michael Dettmer's says this about Somatics:

The discipline of somatics defines the body as a functional, living whole, integrating body, mind and spirit. The soma is a unified expression of all that we think, feel, perceive, and express. Because human beings have dynamic nervous systems, over time our bodies learn to react habitually, without thinking, to certain recurrent triggering events. These automatic biological responses are referred to as embodied conditioned tendencies. Conditioned tendencies open and close possibilities for the successful coordination of action. Gylanix programs incorporate somatic exercises that enable participants to recognize their conditioned tendencies and develop skills to intervene before they produce undesired outcomes.

Oh, my god, you might want to check this picture of Maddie out. Warning: Big Hair Ahead!

Anyway, Michael Dettmers has this on his resume or whatever he wants to call it on his website (I call it a fabrication):

. He studied management and leadership practices for the 21st century workplace at Business Design Associates and at the Center for the Study of Somatics and Leadership, culminated in his certification as a professional coach in organizational transformation.

And Madeline Ross has this on the same page:

. She also studied for two years at The Center for the Study of Somatics and Leadership.

Doing a search of the web for 'Center for the Study of Somatics and Leadership' or the shorter string of 'Study of Somatics' brings us only back to Dettmers' Gylanix or House of Drek or only one other location which is a San Francisco college of massage called Alive and Well. Please, if you have time go to Alive and Well and check out the Staff/Teachers page and see if you recognize any faces or names.

So, where did Dettmers and his partner study Somatics?

Does this mean anything or not? Who knows, but welcome to the world of Internet research. Lots of fun, lots of real answers, lots of dead ends, lots of tangents.

Sometimes, just sometimes you might get a winner, though.

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 04:47:41 (GMT)
From: 09
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: ex Si Baba link needed
Message:
Am currently being harrassed by one of these. Forget propagation, there is a smug 'knowing' that I am part of Babas overall plan.
This person doesnt even bother with relating his teaching, he just comes on like it will take me a while to come to his feet. Because he is he supreme bieng.

When I reply that I dont mind if he is part of the cult, but wish to be regarded as independant tose labels, I get a patronizing smile calm sigh that I will know soon enough and soon I will be able to 'accept this fact'. Oh yea, and that I have issues around autority that probably relate to my father.

Ok he is sick, but I want to cut off communications with a referal to an ex si baba site or a guru exposing link.

This has come up before, but I am asking again.

Thanks
09

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 05:29:05 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: 09
Subject: Sai Baba links
Message:
What they are doing is standard cult bullshit. Sai Baba sounds like a really weird guy.

Here are some links:

Sai Baba exposed

letter by an ex-devotee

Sai Baba : How Does He Do it?

Sathya Sai Baba is a fraud

I don't know if there is an ex-devotees site, you could ask Dr. Lane at dlane@weber.ucsd.edu

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 07:37:55 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Ex-devotees of sb link
Message:

Here's a site I don't think you've mentioned. There are many exs there/ Hope it helps.

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/sathyasaibaba

Jethro

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 11:15:46 (GMT)
From: 09
Email: None
To: Jethro and G
Subject: Much appreciated! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 03:54:08 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: The slippery 'as if' factor
Message:
It was Helen, I remember, who posted way back about how the cult experience blurs the distinction between fact and metaphor. (Hi Helen - keep watching that mailbox - but go for a pee if you have to!) How, for example, the aspirant absorbs the simplistic allegories of Maharaji's talks until they become a surrogate reality. (My paraphrase.)

Reading the posts from Oshlobaka and Mel Bourne (below) you can see the effects of such blurring. In each case it is the purging of one simple but essential phrase, 'as if' from one's lexicon of thought processes which ultimately corrupts common sense into cult-logic.

For example, Oshoblokie's post talks about meditating on 'The Word' for an hour. Ok, the breath-watch procedure is known as 'technique no.3' nowadays, but the old choice of term better illustrates my argument. 'The Word' of course, refers to 'The Word of God'; the primordial vibration; that central core of undying, infinite whatever-it-is… (hmm, whateveritis sounds like a disease)

Let's look at this: technique number 3 involves focusing on one's breath - that's all. But Osho didn't write 'watch your breath for an hour', did he? Why not?

Now, somewhere down the ages it must have been noticed that by relaxing and focusing on one's breath, one can become the beneficiary of certain mellow, twinkly sensations. Yes, you can feel wonderful. In fact, it sometimes feels as if one has become 'detached from' or has 'moved beyond' the ordinary world of sensory phenomena. It can sometimes feel as if one has 'tapped into' or 'merged with' something 'beyond the boundaries of time and space'. Something that is 'infinite', indeed. Depending on one's preferred terminology, one might even feel as if one's heart has 'merged with God'; as if one has 'experienced the presence of the Creator', or as if one has been veritably 'showered in His Divine Grace'.

The expressions in quotes are metaphors. Important enough to boldly repeat. The terms in quotes are metaphors. Got that?

But cut out the as if's, and the metaphors at once become the core of premie reality. Rest fingertips on eyelids and it is not as if you see or 'merge with the Light of God'. The premie really does see and merge with the Light. (Or as close as doesn't matter when they are relating the experience to others later on…)

Plug ears and curl the tongue, respectively, and it is more than as if you were hearing the music of the spheres or tasting heavenly nectar...

In fact it no longer matters whether your subjective experience is truly 'as if', once your belief system has accepted that it is.

Lovers, of course, 'feel the earth move' or 'see stars', but don't kid themselves that anything cosmic is going on - apart from sex itself, of course, which can be metaphorically cosmic (I have it on good authority…)

But package the premie metaphors as one item and you have 'The Knowledge', which Mel assures us 'works' (another vacant metaphor?). Moreover, the average premie did not previously try out the meditation techniques until instructed to do so - usually via an appointed third party - by Prempal Rawat (a man held in such high esteem it is for some as if he were a 'supreme king', or 'maha raj') So it seems as if the techniques were a 'gift' which aspirant ji 'receives' in order to become premie ji.

Premie ji could have obtained these techniques from any number of sources, but in his/her own case it happened to be Mr Rawat and hence it is as if said techniques were not merely a gift of 'Knowledge' but 'Maharaji's gift of Knowledge'. And then listening to Maharaji talk, you feel further inspired to practice those techniques - and by a very small stretch of the imagination it is as if, by his presence, he were channelling some supernatural power or 'Grace' in your direction and even facilitating your meditation experience.

Only by losing sight of these as if's, by perceiving metaphor as reality, could you or I, or the man or woman in the street even begin to become devotees. And to this specific end, satsang is chock-full of metaphors-as-reality.

(Captain - an alien mahatma fleet came by and all our as if's have gone missing..!)

Example: 'Take one step towards the Master and [it is as if ] the Master takes one hundred steps towards you.'

And only by restoring the as ifs to their rightful place can the premie hope to disengage from the cult. Especially so if their meditation experiences have been of the personally worthwhile, pleasant variety.

Human beings, it seems, have a natural facility for thinking imaginatively, metaphorically and often magically. Perhaps the tendency is a necessary feature of the creativity which gave us a survival advantage over the neanderthals.

Subjects undergoing a hypnotic induction often appear, under suggestion, to suffer temporary loss of memory, paralysis, deafness, etc. They, too, are playing the as if game:

All of us can imagine how it might feel as if we couldn't move our limbs. And in the social setting of hypnosis the subject is encouraged to confirm and conform to these imaginings. But people who are 'hypnotically susceptible' will go one further than saying: 'Yes it feels as if I can't move my arms.' They will reply 'I really can't move my arms'. Experimental evidence suggests they could disprove the feeling by simply moving their arms. But they choose not to.

Of course, the hypnotically susceptible are no more special people than premies are special people. (But both groups are inclined to see themselves as special people, IMO.) Premies, however, will turn the dropping of the 'as ifs' into a fine art, lifestyle and belief system. A metaphorical moonscape for the imaginative.

They could easily, of course, ditch the guru and his archaic package of beliefs, start to move their arms and thoughts about freely and continue to have no less of an inner experience. But they choose not to.

A challenge to premies:

(1) Ask yourselves: do you confuse metaphor with reality?

(2) If not, can you justify your leaving out the 'as if's' in the examples I gave above? (For example: was it simply as if Maharaji gave you your meditation experiences, or can you say for sure that Mr Rawat was indeed the benefactor?)

(3) If you cannot provide a rationale for seeing the concepts of 'Maharaji' and 'Knowledge' as having more than a metaphorical truth value, can you instead justify making donations to Elan Vital or according Maharaji his divine or special status?

(4) If a member of the public asked questions (1) to (3) at an introductory EV programme, do you think they would they receive even one honest answer?

(5) If so, what would the honest answers be?

Just asking…

(...as if I am likely to get a sensible reply...)

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Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 03:50:55 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Nigel
Subject: Good dialectic & analysis
Message:
NT
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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 01:05:45 (GMT)
From: The Big X
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Good job Nigel
Message:
Excellent job my servant. Keep it up!

Get them to doubt EVERYTHING they believe in by playing upon those doubts that only ex-premies know so well. Just like we did.

Get them to deny EVERYTHING they ever experienced. Just like we do.

Get the ones who are not having such a strong experience in such a state that they won't be sure if they're coming or going. Just like we were.

Get them to mistrust EVERYBODY they once trusted. Just like we did.

Get them to realise that it's easier to put their faith in what passes for normal explanations for life and not seek explanations to any of their deeper questions. Just like we have.

Get them to mistrust any feelings that point to a divine influence. Just like we do.

Once these things are in doubt, convince them that it was brainwashing that kept them as a premie through the years and not a real experience. Just like we were convinced.

Appeal to their advancing maturity to dismiss their years as a premie as just one of the many idealistic impulses of their youth. Just like we did.

Yes, get them to believe only in what their rational mind tells them and remove the possibility of any inner guidance. Just like we do.

Then they will be back in the control of their minds with no means available to them to disengage from it. Just like we are.

Then we will replace their weak belief system with that of our own and recruit them for our cause. .

The experience denied will haunt them forever leaving them always lacking and confused, and we will offer to clear up their confusion.

The experience denied will allow us to convince them their emptiness was the fault of the one who promised too much, and we will offer fill their emptiness with unending advice and forum banter.

The experience denied will make them feel that their expectations of themselves were raised to tyrannical heights, the yoke of which we will offer to free them from.

The experience denied will make them think the possibility of living an extraordinary existence doesn't exist, and we will coach them on the virtues of being normal.

Keep up the propagation my servant.

Luce

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 01:46:40 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: The Big X
Subject: Good job Nigel
Message:
Hey Lucifer!

How's things in Hell? Any chance of reconciliation with the Big G (and I don't mean the fat guru!!)?

I have a question for you. Do you prefer Robert de Niro's or Al Pacino's portrayal of you (Angel Heart and The Devil's Advocate)?

BTW, do you really believe that worship of the guru is a good thing? I thought that would be one of the bad things in life, you know, more your domain.

All the worst,

John.

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 13:17:38 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The slippery 'as if' factor
Message:
Hi Nigel

Your comments sound as if they make sense, but do they really?

1) Ask yourselves: do you confuse metaphor with reality?

Not the metaphors you have used, it's not as if I experience peace or contentment from the practice of Knowledge. Its a fact that I do.

(2) If not, can you justify your leaving out the 'as if's' in the examples I gave above? (For example: was it simply as if Maharaji gave you your meditation experiences, or can you say for sure that Mr Rawat was indeed the benefactor?)

I have never particularly thought of or described my experience of Knowledge in the metaphorical terms that you have used, so the question as to the 'leaving out the as ifs' cannot be applied. Maharaji gave me the techniques of meditation, as a result of practice of them over many years I concur with his view that thay are postive and benficial in my life, and in that context can definitely describe Mr Rawat as a 'benefactor'. I may have learnt them elsewhere with equally postive results, but I didn't.

(3) If you cannot provide a rationale for seeing the concepts of 'Maharaji' and 'Knowledge' as having more than a metaphorical truth value, can you instead justify making donations to Elan Vital or according Maharaji his divine or special status?

My experience of Knowledge does not have a 'metaphorical truth value' (whatever that maybe), it has a practical, experiential 'truth value'. This value can indeed provide a simple basis for making donations to Elan Vital for the non-sinister purpose of 'spreading Knowledge'. This value has nothing to do with according Maharaji 'divine' status, but certainly accords him some status of being a 'benefactor' in my life.

(4) If a member of the public asked questions (1) to (3) at an introductory EV programme, do you think they would they receive even one honest answer?

Why not?

(5) If so, what would the honest answers be?

Exactly what I've stated to you above. That's as honest as I can be on the matter, anyway.

Just asking…

(...as if I am likely to get a sensible reply...)

What an arrogant and 'premie steroetyping' last statement, Nigel, not in the least fair minded in my opinion.

Mel

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 12:48:38 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: And the $64,000 metaphor?
Message:
What an arrogant and 'premie steroetyping' last statement, Nigel, not in the least fair minded in my opinion.

Not arrogance, Mel - just a prediction based upon previous forum 'discussions' with premies. (Call it an 'experiential truth' factor, if you like.) And one which is being borne out, I fear in the current crop of replies.

The Big X (above) in his feeble sarcasm avoids the issue I raised altogether so warrants no further comment, IMO.

You too, albeit with a reasonable tone of voice still don't really engage with the issue. Which is much more than a question of superficial labelling of experiences - which in your case appear to be profound or meaningful. It is ultimately about whether your 'master' is the source or facilitator of those experiences, and whether or not he has divine status or the 'powers' to bestow enlightenment (any more than any other charismatic talker can enchant and inspire his follows).

It is my experience that he (and his so-called 'Grace') are wholly unnecessary for whatever inner-wellbeing a premie might feel, yet he has always presented himself as an integral factor - the essential element, in fact. Without him 'we are weak and ignorant', etc... (Hmm, who sounds arrogant, here?!'

And yes, I stressed in my orginal post that focusing on one's breath can feel wonderful. So why isn't that the message, pure and simple? Same for light, music, nectar etc.

But how about the $64,000 dollar metaphor?

I mean the one about Maharaji coming with 'more power' than ever before, and coming to lead the world 'from death to immortality'?

(You might, as you say, have ignored the hindu 'Living Incarnation' framework, but in so doing, you must have been the only premie on the planet doing so.)

I am sorry, Mel, but Maharaji's claims and statements are much more than a superficial conceptual framework to wrap around a glowing, inner feeling which can be achieved by any number of alternative relax-and-focus techniques if you but recogised or investigated them. (And ones where no service, donations and gratitude are required.)

These are, in fact, big, big messianic promises which made all the difference to whether I and thousands of others ever got involved. (Now it seems, Maharaji has been recently saying that when you die, it is all over. So what was that immortality bit all about, then?)

His message seems no more than a mess of contradictions, and the ever-changing metaphorical structure simply a means to never have to come clean about himself, his mere mortality and lack of privileged perspective over our lives.

You write, of your benificent, multi-millionanaire meditation instructor:

Maharaji gave me the techniques of meditation, as a result of practice of them over many years I concur with his view that thay are postive and benficial in my life, and in that context can definitely describe Mr Rawat as a 'benefactor'. I may have learnt them elsewhere with equally postive results, but I didn't.

That sounds all very nice and cosy, Mel, but has Maharaji brought you from death to immortality?

Or was it just a figure of speech...

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 01:24:26 (GMT)
From: Mantis
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: who is rawat?
Message:
How long have you been a premie, Mel? If you were one since the seventies, how do you explain away the lord of the universe trip? Or do you just keep apologising for your benefactor? At least sai baba and adi da have the guts to still claim to be god on earth. Why is maharaji such a chickenshit? Well, maybe he thinks he can come up with a better con. He sure has you conned.

It sometimes seems like a question of money. After all your benefactor does require a lavish lifestyle. But money is not the main thing with this or any other cult. If you want to give your money, fine by me. But just consider all the money that was donated for the propagation of knowledge and all of those projects that were cancelled. All that money and no maharaji meditation centers in the US of A. No ashrams no nothing but video events. Hmmmm.... Gotta keep giving cause someday it will all work out and marajuju will reveal the truth and we'll all be back to singing arti!?!?!?!

The main thing is: your life is stolen from you! Does it matter if it is maharaji or sai baba or adi da or some other guru? No. The trip is the same. You must come to the feet. Come to your senses, Mel.

On your so called Knowledge: so what? Good for you that you have good experiences meditating. You could have read those techniques in a book and still have 'realized' something. You could have had great kundalini experiences. I do not deny that meditation works. I meditate myself. But I did that before I got k. I experienced samhadi before I got k. I knew god before I got k. That's ultimately why I walked away from maharaji and his trip. He just ain't nuttin' like Krishna or Yahweh or Allah or even dare I say it? THE FORCE! Takes more than a fancy costume and a private jet to be the big guy!

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 14:54:51 (GMT)
From: Jim Heller
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Fuck off and DIE, Mel
Message:
Mel,

I really like some of your answers. They have about them a ring of truth one encounters so rarely these days. It's almost as if you approached this conversation with candour and honesty. And now, responding to you is also rewarding. It's as if I'm talking with a real human being and not just some lame-brained cult member. You know? When it gets this close, Mel, I get excited. Hey, it's an exciting thing.

You say:

Maharaji gave me the techniques of meditation, as a result of practice of them over many years I concur with his view that thay are postive and benficial in my life, and in that context can definitely describe Mr Rawat as a 'benefactor'. I may have learnt them elsewhere with equally postive results, but I didn't.

Satpal, Maharaji's brother who claims that he is the rightful Hamster also gives the techniques. Do you think that someone who receives them from him can enjoy 'equally positive results'? If so, one would only expect that Maharaji would love his brother very deeply, no? After all, they're both doing exactly the same thing, aren't they? Bringing the same, extremely precious expereience to people?


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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 02:50:41 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim Heller
Subject: Jim, Mel is a human being
Message:
Jim,

Fuck off and die? You can do better than that James! What happened to all that respect stuff you were into a couple of months ago?

First off why couldn't a premie be candid and honest? Would that be impossible? And is everyone who doesn't agree with you lame-brained? However Jim, I do believe that you have every right to get excited about an exciting thing.

Mel is right about meditation as far as I'm concerned. The techniques are positive and beneficial. You have to use them though Jim for them to work. You already know that though.

Do I think that someone who receives them from Satpal can enjoy equally positive results? Don't know!

Should I expect that Maharaji would love his brother very deeply since they're both doing exactly the same thing? Don't care?

Dep

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 15:19:31 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: You should care...
Message:
Dep: In purely premie terms..... If M doesn't even love his own brother, then he ISN'T in THAT PLACE! If M isn't in THAT PLACE, experiencing THAT JOY and THAT LOVE, then what on earth is he doing telling you how to get there? Would you take directions to Hermit Rapids (in the Grand Canyon basin) from someone who hadn't been there??????? OF COURSE YOU WOULDN'T! Why on earth would you take directions to THAT PLACE from someone who ISN'T THERE???????? (and probably never has been!) Remember, HE SAID that he 'received knowledge' and then in about a month he 'realized it!' I say bull-pucks! If he was in THAT PLACE, he would love everyone, always! There is no way that he would call anyone 'my enemies' or anything else derogatory!

Listen up, he held a GRUDGE against his own mother (to her dying day!), he holds a GRUDGE against his own brother...... does that sound like someone who is 'THERE'???????????? If I were spiritually inclined, that (all by itself) would peg him as not worth listening to!

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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 14:39:33 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Mike, Jim, and Irene
Subject: Why I'm a premie
Message:
When it comes to spirituality the paradox is that we have to do it ourselves and we can't do it alone.

IMO there are times when it is important to have a teacher. As I've said before, the image of the self-sufficient pioneer-cowboy is not necessarily the most appropriate way to approach spiritual life or even learning computers for that matter. I've shopped around by the way and I've not been able to find anyone who talks as clearly of spiritual matters as M does. I'm not interested in talking about chakras, astral bodies, life after death etc. I just want to be inspired to keep on keeping on, doing those techniques.

I could leave Maharaji anytime and I choose to stay. I go to videos because I choose to. One hour a week is not too much time to dedicate to talking about the Spirit.

I meditate because I choose to. Those premies I know who have gone it alone have all stopped meditating. With M as with everything else, I take what I like and leave the rest.

You ex-es must be interested in Maharaji or you wouldn't keep talking about him all the time. I you want to leave M and stop practising that's fine by me. If I want to keep practising and going to videos is that okay with you?

Dep

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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 18:29:54 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Why I'm a premie
Message:
If I want to keep practising and going to videos is that okay with you?

Seeing as you're asking, it's fine by me, but please don't give him any money. Also, could you please have a good think about all the other issues raised here?

Thanks and all the best,

John.

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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 18:28:37 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Can't do it alone? we're here!
Message:
Dep, you like paradoxes? Here's one for you:

In a certain town lived a fool and his wife who was also a fool. They had grown worse in their folly by fighting daily about the question of who was the better fool. Their neighbors were quite tired of their noisy fights. One day, when their fight was at its noisiest, a clever man arrived in town, and it didn't take him long to discover the cause of their fights. He knew right away that advice would not be of any use.

So he cornered the fool and told him, “Go and see the world. See how many kinds of fools there are in the world. What's the point of fighting like this?” And he sent him out to see the variety of folly in the world.

So the fool wandered long and far till he came to a town where everyone was an idiot. The houses were filled with darkness even at midday. So they were trying to gather sunlight in baskets and carry it into the houses. The fool watched them and laughingly asked them, “What are you doing?”

They said, “Don't you see? We're trying to bring light into our houses. So we're filling up these baskets with sunlight. But our houses are still dark.”

“O, that's easy. If you pay me a fee, I'll fill your houses with light.”

They were delighted and gave him a hefty fee. He went into each house and opened all the windows and skylights. Where they didn't have any, he axed the walls and made big holes. Light poured into the rooms. The people of the town were amazed.

Then he wandered on till he saw a house where grass grew on the terraced roof where a little sand had collected. The woman of the house wanted her buffalo to eat the grass. So she was trying to get the buffalo to climb to the top of the house. The fool asked her, “What are you trying to do?”

“O, my son's buffalo is hungry. I want to let it graze on the terrace. But the buffalo is stupid. Even though I beat him, he won't climb onto the roof. What shall I do?”

“For a fee, I'd be happy to graze him,” he offered.

“Take it, here,” said the woman, giving him some money.

He at once asked for a ladder, climbed onto the terrace, cut some of the grass, and threw it in front of the buffalo, who happily began to chew on it.

Right then, he heard people making a rumpus in another lane. The fool went there to see what was happening. Several wrestlers and weight lifters were engaged in the task of taking a huge piece of timber into a house. The door was too narrow for it and they couldn't get the piece past it. When the fool arrived there, the big fellows were getting ready to break down the door and the surrounding wall.

He offered to help, for a decent fee, of course. They were happy to get any help. He made them cut the piece of timber in quarters and carry it in.

When he looked at all these fools who were much worse than he, good sense dawned on him.

“My wife and I are such smart people—not like these dolts!” he thought.

So he returned home and began to live like other people.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

You say you 'can't do it alone', Dep?

.
.
.
.
.
I'm tempted to say, 'For a fee ...'

.
.
.
.

Origins of story:

Types and Motifs

Type AT 1210, The Cow Is Taken to the Roof to Graze. Type AT 1245, Sunlight Carried in a Bag
into a Windowless House.
Hundreds of numskull stories (Types AT 1200–1349) are told all over India, as elsewhere.
Sometimes they are organized into a series, as in the present tale or as in AT 1332, Which Is the
Greatest Fool, or they are strung elaborately into whole fooltowns, as in the British tales of the men of
Gotham or the Danish tales of the fools of Molbo. The best-known of these in southern India are the
adventures of Paramartha Guru and His Disciples, first told in written form by Father Beschi, an Italian
Jesuit who lived in Tamilnadu and wrote in Tamil in the eighteenth century. One is not sure whether he
reported these from Europe or heard them locally. Yet they have certainly become part of the Tamil,
Telugu, and Kannada oral traditions. [For a translation of Costantino G. Beschi's collection, see
Benjamin Babington, The Adventures of the Gooroo Paramartan (London: J. M. Richardson,
1822).]
Numskull tales, as in Europe, are very old, told and retold in the earliest collections like the
J?takas and the Pańcatantra. Large numbers of them punctuate the longer romances in the Ocean of
Story.

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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 15:55:01 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: I dunno, Dep
Message:
Dep: Actually, I do appreciate what you are saying in this post. It clearly defines how you feel and what you think (IMO). I want to discuss a couple of things that you said:

'When it comes to spirituality the paradox is that we have to do it ourselves and we can't do it alone.' Dep, who told you this? You didn't come to this conclusion by yourself.... someone told you. Who? I can tell you 'who;' it was the self-proclaimed 'gurus' that told you that you needed them. It was they who told you that you had to dedicate your entire life to them, etc etc. Personally, if I were so inclined, I would call the bluff and say that I don't think it's THAT hard. My guru-free experiences in the Grand Canyon taught me that, not someone else's concepts.

'I've shopped around by the way and I've not been able to find anyone who talks as clearly of spiritual matters as M does.' Dep, how can you say this? He doesn't talk about spirituality, at all. He seems to show very real disdain for morals, precepts and ethics (even personal ethics). He has, in his own words, said that ethics are useless. Sorry, but I just can't hear ANYTHING coming out of his mouth that is in any way 'spiritual.' He USED to talk about it, but not anymore. It's like spiritualism for people that want to 'think' they are being spiritual without actually having to go to the trouble of DOING it.

I don't see premies (as a group) DOING anything that would indicate any spiritual progression, at all. There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE of their progression...... by their 'fruits,' don't you remember?????? I don't see any 'fruits.' Do you understand what I'm saying? In fact, M got rid of the fruits (DUO, for example) and any semblence of permitting premies to show the 'fruits' to anyone, other than himself. Jeez, the movie 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji' even stated that 'by their fruits.....' WELL????? Where are they????? Am I missing something????? Where is the outpouring of REAL 'fruits of the spirit?' There aren't any! That ONE thing, alone, is enough to make me KNOW (from a spiritual point of view) that M is a fraud.

You actually seem to be a nice person, so don't take the above too personally. I'm speaking of HIS fruits, the fruits of premies as a group, not yours! If you donate time (most importantly, time) and money to other worthy causes then I applaud Y.O.U! I don't applaud HIM, he had nothing to do with it. If HE were doing it, funding it, organizing it, then HE would deserve the credit and it would count as a 'fruit,' but NOT before he does!

So, now you know one of the yardsticks that 'I' used to determine that he is a fraud..... Just because I know 'he' is a fraud, DOESN'T mean that I think that YOU are, too. :-)

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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 15:47:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: That's really confused, Dog
Message:
When it comes to spirituality the paradox is that we have to do it ourselves and we can't do it alone.

In the real world a paradox is impossible. In religious or spiritual circles, they're guiding principles. Great. Guru-ji gets to be right if he's right and right if he's wrong -- 'hey, I told you it was a paradox, didn't I?'

So, if you're trying to actually think clearly about this, Dog, better make up your mind. Do you 'have to do it alone' or is that impossible? (You can actually choose either one, as there is no such thing as it in any event. Your dream, your rules, I guess).

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 03:34:56 (GMT)
From: Irene
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: is Maharaji human?
Message:
First of all, Mahalard clearly has said many times that without his grace the techniques do not work. Such a fake Guru! But if you want to believe that he is real, that he's the giver of the experience, you have created in your head that concept, by the grace of your guru, who put it in your head.

I wish you the best, and the best is for you to let the chains go. You do not need him.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 03:33:24 (GMT)
From: Jim Heller
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: He's a bad representative then
Message:
Dog,

Mel has posted here for a long, long time. He's denied the obvious truth about the cult and its history at every turn. For example, show him a quote like:

Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion?

and he'll deny its obvious import (i.e. that m claimed he was God).

Mel in real life might be swell, swell fellow but here he's a lying machine. Respect? I never said I'd respect such a person. I'm disgusted by such a person, to tell you the truth.

Could a premie be honest? Of course. But will they? Apparently not if they want to stay a premie for more than few minutes. See, the anti-m arguments are so overwhelming and irrefutable that premies can't answer m's critics and their consciences at the same time. Premies have no scruples when it comes to defending m. They act like Mel and that's unacceptable.

And you know what else is unacceptable? A premie saying that he doesn't care what m says or does, how he lives his life, the extent, if any, to which m is a flaming hypocrite, but still saying how much m means to him. That disgusts me too.

This is a cult, Dog. You never in your life would have intentionally entered into such a 'relationship' as that which you have with m. Never. To suggest that the two brothers could present themselves as the Holy Family one moment, then set up shop like two dueling merchants the next, each decrying the other as a dangerous fake. And you say what to that? That you don't care? Just shows how low you've let your standards drop, doesn't it? You've got no curiosity because m doesn't let you have one.

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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 15:44:16 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim Heller
Subject: He's a bad representative then
Message:
Jim,

The trip I'm on is not about duelling points of view, judging, or intellectual one-up-man-ship. I don't really care about arguments, I care more about my experience, where the techniques take me. Does that disgust you?

I'm more interested in my relationship with me, today!

You say, 'the two brothers could present themselves as the Holy Family one moment, then set up shop like two duelling merchants the next, each decrying the other as a dangerous fake. And you say what to that?' Well, brothers fight. Once you get by original shock of it, if anything it's kind of comical.

I don't have low standards just different ones. It's just not important to me. A hypocrite is one who affects virtues or qualities he does not have. How does this make me a hypocrite?

You say, 'You've got no curiosity because m doesn't let you have one.' I say horse puck. I do have curiosity; I'm just a little more discriminating when it comes to choosing my soap operas. I'm not as attached to stories as I used to be. Most of the time I like to have the 'TV' turned off.

As my old and much loved mentor Ram Dass says, 'Very often people report to me that meditation has brought an emptiness into their life. Everything seems meaningless. It takes great faith to ride through such heavy periods of spiritual transformation. I recall the near anger I had towards spiritually as I saw my favourite rushes fall away. Things I had previously gotten great thrills from became empty. Meditation brings this change. It lessens the highs and lows. As they disappear we sometimes feel a sadness and depression, a sense of having lost the richness and the romance of life. In a way it is sad to so one's story line turn into empty form. The dark night of the soul is when you have lost the flavour of life but have not yet gained the fullness of divinity. So it is that we must weather that dark time, the period of transformation when what is familiar has been taken away and the new richness is not yet ours.'

That's what I'm going through and the trip between M and his brother is between M and his brother.

Dep

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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 15:58:15 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: You're playing dumb, Dog
Message:
Dog,

If you're not interested in argument, and you're a supporter of m, you've certainly come to the wrong place. But here you are and, yes, it's kind of sad to see someone sell out their own smarts as you do. You don't really want to argue, you're not really into judging, nothing intellectual, sure you've got curiosity, just don't happen to have any about your guru, you talk silly new age nonsense about your 'relationship with yourself' ......

a lot of dummying-down, evasiveness and whatever else it takes, huh?

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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 19:01:36 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You're playing dumb, Dog
Message:
Jim,

You say,'You talk silly new age nonsense about your 'relationship with yourself' ......' Well I beg to differ.

Socrates said 'Know thyself.'

Shakespeare said, 'To thine own self be true and and surely as night follws day thou canst be false to any man.'

Sengstan said, 'There is no need to seek Truth outside; only stop having views.'

Thomas Merton said, 'We have what we need. It is there all the time, and if we give it time it will make itself known to us.'

Buddha said, 'Be a lamp unto yourself.'

None of these people are from this age. This is old age stuff, whatever that means. Not many would call these people evasive dummies.

A lot of things people are interested in don't interest me. I know the truth is within and don't have to look outside. Been there done that. In fact I think I'm pretty smart to follow these guys.

You're smart too, you're just looking in the wrong place.

Dep

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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 19:25:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Be careful with language, plea
Message:
se

You were talking about a 'relationship with yourself'. That's newage jargon in the extreme. Socrates talked about knowing' onesself, etc., etc. That's different.

And why does it matter? Because that kind of dumb new age talk is designed to confuse. Obviously one could always say they only meant the phrase metaphorically, that you'd ahve to be a dummy to think you could have a relationship with yourself. But then new age fools start trying to twist this useless metaphor into something more literal and that, my friend, is one of the oldest, stupidest new age games around. Word games for the undiscriminating, I guess you could say.

You know, first you start talking about having a better 'relationship' with yourself, then they start talking about 'taking yourself out on a date'. From there it's either 'falling in love with yourself' or, hopefully not, 'dealing with self-deat-rape'. You know how it goes.

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Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 20:24:27 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Be careful with language, plea
Message:
Jim,

Semantics! Knowing yourself and having a relationship with yourself, what's the difference? If your prefer knowing I'll go with that.

Did Elvis know himself? How about John Belushi, Chris Farley, Curt Cobain? Obviously not! It's important to be a friend to yourself. Make peace with yourself. There are some who say that self is all there is. We only really know ourselves. You only really read to yourself, you only talk to yourself.

I've even had sex with myself.

Dep

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 14:21:45 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: The slippery 'as if' factor
Message:
Mel,

I think you are being dishonest and that you actually do view Maharaji as some sort of superior being.

Can you honestly say that you don't?

John the ex devotee of Maharaji.

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 07:05:05 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: awesome post! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 05:03:52 (GMT)
From: Oh Yes
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Yes
Message:
Nigel,
Ok Now I want to have your baby.

Your post really teases out the power of imagination. The sleeping artists and poets in premeis take on new dimensions.

(If these imaginations have become personified as premies reality-maybe thats why Ms art is so bad.)

And should an ex take issue with any of these 'as ifs' the response from premeis is that we do not have a grasp of the potential of 'that beauty' or we do not believe it to be possible to experience-because we think we are not worth it or we are so worldly that it is not important to us anymore.

It should be a given that those nice experiences are possible .
Then the question should be by what means.

This is something I find maddening and appreciate that you have
posted this.

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 06:32:33 (GMT)
From: Oshlabaka
Email: jdonohue41@cs.com
To: Oh Yes
Subject: Yes
Message:
You make Knowledge sound like a waking dream.
Hypnosis, voo-doo.

If knowledge is as un real as you say it is --to --you
how can you justify your anger toward it?
I had'nt even gottin to the issue of Maharaj ji yet.
All I wanted to know is if you can Honestly Deny The Reality Of Knowledge While Practicing it. I contend that, If your not practicing it, The reality can't reveal itself to you.

I honestly can't confirm or deny allegations against Maharaj ji.
Guess What---Typical Premie Logic---I DON'T CARE!

He taught it to me. He is the one I respect.
I draw strength from him. I Love Him. (By the way Im Gay But that's beside the point.)
Forgive the political uncorrectness..(Holy Name) Ive been out of curculation for a while.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 19:55:21 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Oshlabaka
Subject: What the..?
Message:
O: you wrote:

You make Knowledge sound like a waking dream. Hypnosis, voo-doo.

Can you say for sure that 'knowledge' is so different to either? I know very little about voodoo, but know quite a bit about 'hypnotic' phenomena. I definitely see 'knowledge' as a combination of relaxation and psychosocial compliance effects - the same as you will find in the hypnotic setting (and in the universal cult setting).

If knowledge is as un real as you say it is --to --you how can you justify your anger toward it?

(1) I didn't say the experience of knowledge wasn't a real experience. (Did you actually READ my post?) Merely that the conceptual framework that Prempal Rawat places around it is bogus and self-serving. The premie has the option of interpreting all the wild claims metaphorically so everything remains a nice, warm, unchallengeable fuzz. Maharaji doesn't really have to take us 'from death to immortality...' That was just part of the Indian cultural tradition that Mel likes to cite as justification for anything. Just their way of looking at things, but not to be taken seriously.

(2) I am not angry and you have no reason to suppose that I am from the content of my post. (And even if were angry, how would that invalidate my interpretation of cult phenomena?)

I had'nt even gottin to the issue of Maharaj ji yet.

So go on, then - I am all ears...

All I wanted to know is if you can Honestly Deny The Reality Of Knowledge While Practicing it. I contend that, If your not practicing it, The reality can't reveal itself to you.

What you call 'the Reality of Knowledge' is a feeling. I can't deny what a feeling feels like, but I can assure you the same feelings are available to people who never have practised (or who no longer practice) 'Knowledge' as to those who do. Your guru is irrelevant to what happens to your brain chemistry and consciousness during meditation.

I honestly can't confirm or deny allegations against Maharaj ji.

(And you have no interest in getting to the bottom of them..?)

But the funny thing is this: he could be innocent on all charges (drunkenness, bullying, mistresses, etc.) but still be guilty of the one, big deception that is more serious than any of them. Namely, portraying himself as God incarnate for financial gain - and never retracting those claims for fear of his support falling away.

Guess What---Typical Premie Logic---I DON'T CARE!

You said it.

He taught it to me. He is the one I respect. I draw strength from him. I Love Him.

Let's get this straight: he taught you four simple techniques. Anything else? He showed you where to put your fingers, and then what..? Some education.

(By the way Im Gay But that's beside the point.)

Entirely.

Forgive the political uncorrectness..(Holy Name) Ive been out of curculation for a while.

Relax. I like to see the old expressions used. They make it that much more difficult for Maharaji to deny his past.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 20:50:35 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: What the..? excuse me while I
Message:
What the..? excuse me while I interrupt ...

Nigel,

Gotta hand it to you man, you got perseverence. Me? I hear too much premie-talk/satsang and a part of me just has to switch off. But for taking this one on, muchas ...

You say that the Maha established himself by

' ... portraying himself as God incarnate for financial gain'

without doubt.
.
.
.
Remind me of this, ... often.
.
.
.
.
I've just found this story, but am not yet sober enough to understand its meaning:

[the site can be found here
.
.
.
.

39. Monkey Business

A monkey lived in a forest. Once, as he leapt from tree to tree, a splinter broke in his tail. He was sitting on a branch howling in pain and nursing his tail when he saw a barber walking that way. He called the man closer and begged of him: “Brother Barber, Brother Barber, a thorn or something is hurting my tail. Please take it out with your razor, bless you.”

When the barber was taking out the splinter, which was in a tricky place, the whole tail broke off with a snap. The monkey began to cry in a loud voice, “Give me my tail back! My tail, my tail!”

The barber didn't know what to do. So he said, “Take my razor instead of your tail.”

The monkey took the barber's razor and began to walk. On his way, he saw a potter patting clay and turning a pot. The monkey said, “Take this razor,” and gave it to him. The potter took it and put it to one of the pots to cut an edge, but the razor broke in his hand. The monkey set up a howl: “You broke my razor! My razor, my razor!”

So the potter gave him a pot in exchange for the razor.

The monkey was walking along with the pot when he saw a farmer watering cucumber plants with his bare hands. So the monkey gave then pot to the farmer. Before he could water two cucumbers with it, the pot slipped from his hands and shattered. The monkey wailed again, “Give me back my pot! My pot, my pot!”

The farmer gave him a cucumber in exchange.

Next the monkey met a peasant who was eating dry bread. So the monkey gave him the cucumber. But as soon as he finished eating it with his bread, the monkey howled, “My cucumber! Give me back my cucumber!”

The peasant, the good man, didn't want any trouble. So he gave the monkey his old ox.

The monkey now rode the ox till he saw some acrobats carrying bamboo poles and drums and things on their heads. The monkey said to them, “Why do you want to carry all that stuff on your heads? Put it all on this ox's back.”

The acrobats were glad to load the ox with everything they had and walk next to it swinging their hands. The ox was very old and could not really bear the burden. He soon sank to the ground and fell down dead. The monkey jumped up and down and cried, “My ox, my ox! Give me back my ox!”

The acrobats couldn't stand this monkey business and gave him his big drum.

The monkey beat his drum and began to sing:

Out went the tail,
in came the razor, dum dum!
Out went the razor, in came the pot, dum dum!
Out went the pot, in came the cuke, dum dum!
Out went the cuke, in came the ox, dum dum!
Out went the ox, in came the drum, dum dum!
Out went the tail, in came the drum, the drum,the drum,
dum dum dum! dum dum dum!

.
.
.
.
.
.
You gonna be at the Latvian soon?

Interpretations at the ready ...

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Date: Thurs, Feb 03, 2000 at 19:02:25 (GMT)
From: mantis
Email: None
To: Oshlabaka
Subject: Yes and so what?
Message:
If you learned the techniques from a book, you would worship the book? Dumb shit!
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Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 05:41:12 (GMT)
From: Oshlabaka
Email: jdonohue41@cs.com
To: mantis
Subject: Yes and so what?
Message:
Spoken like a true, EX-preme(ex-lover)!
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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 20:20:06 (GMT)
From: bushwacka
Email: None
To: Oshlabaka
Subject: Yes
Message:
You link a few sub-systems together, concentrate a bit, et voila you have altered chemicals released from within your own body. The experience itself can be beautiful, that comes before the belief system, not after.

Secondly, that experience is exactly the same whether you're an ex or a follower.

The spiritual arrogance that assumes that only premies can have these expereiences is a wonder, and an embarrassment to behold (been there, done that, deep shame, especially family, loss of close friends)

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 17:46:41 (GMT)
From: Yes
Email: None
To: Oshlabaka
Subject: suggesting an experiement
Message:
I beleive you when you say you dont care. What would happen if you gave ourself a few days for an experiement?
Still practice meditation, but really pretend that you do care for a few days.
IF you give yourself this small permission to Care, and I dont mean break any of the guidlines for Knowledge - so I am not talking about giving room for doubt- I just mean caring in a general sense.

Dont have any preconcieved ideas about WHAT to care about , just let your imagiation go.

I would be really interested in how such an experiement would go for a premie- from one day to the next.

What kind of things a premie would imagine he could care about.

An experiment like this would indicate the human spirits' discernng judgement and social conscience- apart from the dogma of 'The world needs this knowledge and until they get it they are lost'routine.
Even if you take that as a given, what else would raise itself as a possible thing to care about?

It wold be an experiement into unchartered territory. You would have to be able to distinguish prejudices inhereted from your upbringing and accompanying reactionary response bias.
You would need to keep a diary of how all it changed fromm one day to the next.

Just an idea I had.

Take care
Yes

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 16:55:57 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Oshlabaka
Subject: I don't care....
Message:
O: How typical and HOW TRUE! Premies don't care about anything other than slobbering all over M's feet. This is EXACTLY how M wants you to think..... he's done his job well..... you are totally brainwashed and it shows.

It is more than obvious that premies don't care:
- M uses precious and rare metals (paid for by premies) to make sink/toilet fixtures. These metals are REQUIRED for the production of medical equipment, electronics and other important things.

- M sinks millions of dollars into creature comforts for himself (paid for by premies). Gee, I wish I could have a 15 million dollar home on top of a hill, with auto-electric sliding glass windows and a 7-car garage (for my fleet of mercedes), with a heliport (and matching helicopter)! Let's not forget the unpaid slaves that manage it, of course.

- M ensures that his kids get the absolute best education (paid for by premies) while telling you that your kids don't need it.

- M flies a jumbo-jet-for-one (paid for by premies) all over the world; squandering precious fossil-fuels and polluting the air with TONS of emissions just because he's afraid of other people and their germs (or for the ego boost it gives him to fly his very own plane). BTW, I hold premies responsible for the pollution that he spreads because they PAY for it to happen.

- Last but not least.... his continued protection of criminals.

Now tell me Oshkoshbygosh, what in the hell has any of this stuff got to do with his supposed goal of propagating K? NOTHING, of course, BUT YOU DON'T CARE! Why don't you care? Because you got YOURS already! I won't tell you what my definition of current premies is, but the word 'SELFISH' is in their about 10,000 times!

If you guys CARED and stopped paying HIS bills, then this crap would stop right now because he doesn't even know how to get a REAL job. STOP PAYING HIS DAMNED BILLS! Insist on a full accounting of your 'donated' funds. Hey, if this was United Way or some other non-profit organization, you would INSIST on a full accounting! Why don't you insist on a to-the-penny accounting by M? Maybe because you still believe he's god? You guys are afraid.... afraid of your own shadow.... afraid of yourselves.... afraid of your 'true' self (if there is such a thing).... good.... m has done his work well.... you are ACTUALLY afraid of him!

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 11:12:27 (GMT)
From: yes
Email: None
To: Oshlabaka
Subject: Yes
Message:
You have made a couple of assumptions there. Be carefull that you do not clump all exes who post here under the same category.

I never said I was angry at knowledge techinques. (Of course I cant expect you to divine how I feel about this amoungst all of the people on the forum.)

I do get angry at the shuck and jive that Malarki is dishing out about the techniques, specifically his monopoly on them, and the covert message that he is still a god like figure and premies should still regard him as such. And most of all the grace baloney. Most of the time when I say this to a premie they smirk as if to say that I dont beleive ingrace and pity me.

What they dont get is that grace truly abounds OUTSIDE of Maraji, and premeidumb. But they are so bifocal that they dont even get that much. I think the 'as if' dogma as Nigel puts it is designed to lower intelligence and therby stunt cognition.

In the past M has been a real car salesman. I still think he is.
No, I dont feel anger. But I do think he is dangerous. Very dangerous. His recruitig needs careful viligence by the exs. As far as I am concerned, anger would diminishes my effectivness in this viligence that I am committed to.

Many of my friends have had their emotional sanity slip away due to their effort to fit his 'you life needs meaning and I can show it to you ' mode.
And since you mention it , the premie 'I dont care' is the biggest cop out in the name of spiritual progress going.

How nice for you that you are gay. But what am I supposed to do with that? I dont understand why you would say that at all.
I too am not up on the PC. So I dont understand why gay people feel the need to say that they are.
I mean I dont go around saying who or what I am interested in. It just seems like superfulous info. Ii is not as if we were having a conversation about sexual preferences and you were asked.

Its like if I said 'oh yeah by the way Im black.' If I said that I might wish you to percieve me as a minority for some reason.
Or I might want to use that as part of my social identity.

This would seem like a kind of reverse racial discrimination.

So gay people stating that they are gay for no reason ofter seems to be a sexual cult label.

Well, you didnt ask for that tere rave did you!
Dont take it personal.

Yes

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 07:58:03 (GMT)
From: Cult Obserber
Email: None
To: Oshlabaka
Subject: Excellent example of premie
Message:
Osh said
'I honestly can't confirm or deny allegations against Maharaj ji.
Guess What---Typical Premie Logic---I DON'T CARE!'

Well typical premie thanks for admitting that you don't care. I now understabd why Maharaji's followers don't care about his mis-treatment of others or his protection of criminals.

CO

PS Did Maharaji make the trains run on time in India like someone else of his type in another country?

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Date: Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 04:42:52 (GMT)
From: I. Dunno
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The slippery 'as if' factor
Message:
I have just emailed Nigel and told him what a great post that was. Certainly food for thought if not one of the most intelligent posts yet.

I. Dunno

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