Jim -:- Do premies secretly hate m? -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 16:36:58 (GMT)

__ Jerry Springer -:- Does Jim secretly hate change? -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 23:14:54 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- Do premies secretly hate m? -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 17:26:06 (GMT)

__ G -:- Do premies secretly hate m? -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 17:23:47 (GMT)

__ __ Ms. K -:- Great post, G! (nt) -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 19:05:22 (GMT)

__ __ cqg -:- Do premies secretly hate m? -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 18:04:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- Do premies secretly hate m? -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 18:11:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Do premies secretly hate m? -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 04:43:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Confession as catharthis -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 19:27:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I just love it when you talk that way, Nige -:- Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 00:04:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- acting out, huffing glue -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:01:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ just someone -:- ***BEST OF*** these 2 posts nt -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 20:43:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Do premies secretly hate m? -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 05:53:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- the tangled dance of cult-hood -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:23:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- not much up close contact -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 21:16:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Do premies secretly hate m? -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 05:37:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Do premies secretly hate m? -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:29:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Do premies secretly hate m? -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 06:10:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Do premies secretly hate m? -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 06:43:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ smoking? -:- Do premies secretly hate m? -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 06:49:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- copying smoking? -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 15:25:50 (GMT)

__ Shp -:- past lives of an ex-premie -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:13:53 (GMT)

__ __ G -:- Observations not condemnatory -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:55:56 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- You've got a point there, Shp -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:45:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ Shp -:- You've got a point there, Shp -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 17:58:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ G -:- Misrepresentations -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 19:19:04 (GMT)

occasional mole -:- conference call -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 11:14:26 (GMT)

__ Roger eDrek™ -:- Two ***Bests*** and Corporate -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 21:26:53 (GMT)

__ JW -:- Translation of Premiespeak -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 19:45:37 (GMT)

__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Translation of Premiespeak -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 02:44:18 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- Very funny, Joe (nt) -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 20:44:31 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- conference call -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 13:40:38 (GMT)

__ Angry -:- 'Refining Your Understanding.. -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 12:53:38 (GMT)

__ __ Susan -:- 'Refining Your Understanding.. -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 15:06:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ Angry -:- 'Refining Your Understanding.. -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 16:01:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- 'Refining Your Understanding.. -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 16:15:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- I thought that too... -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 16:52:41 (GMT)

rate the forum premies on -:- the glascow coma scale.... -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 17:04:52 (GMT)

Roger eDrek™ -:- The Y2K Chinese New Year -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 08:27:40 (GMT)

__ Bouncing Betty -:- The Y2K Chinese New Year -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 16:58:00 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- The Y2K Chinese New Year -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 13:24:22 (GMT)

__ __ G -:- Maharaji's Millennial message -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 14:42:14 (GMT)

__ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- Chinese New Year 4698 -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 14:30:41 (GMT)

__ cqg -:- Grab yourself a fortune cookie -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 16:15:26 (GMT)

la-ex -:- montreal quote, martin gray -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 04:34:05 (GMT)

__ Powerman -:- montreal quote, martin gray -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 05:40:21 (GMT)

__ __ Bouncing Betty -:- Here you go, kiddies -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 05:48:37 (GMT)

Sir David -:- The jury's still out -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 03:22:40 (GMT)

__ SB -:- Montreal: You're dead -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 04:29:36 (GMT)

fred -:- how badly -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 21:25:07 (GMT)

__ AJW -:- Try this at home... -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 22:52:31 (GMT)

__ __ Candy -:- AJW invents a new practice -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 07:31:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ Robyn -:- AJW invents a new practice -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 12:15:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Candy -:- AJW invents a new practice -:- Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 05:30:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cqg -:- AJW invents a new practice -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 20:13:28 (GMT)

__ __ Jerry -:- Try this at home... -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 23:11:47 (GMT)

__ __ G -:- About snot -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 00:39:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ Robyn -:- About snot -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 00:57:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ G -:- Another link -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 03:50:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Another link -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 04:24:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ kmdarling -:- NOT SNOT NOR GRACE NEITHER -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 19:48:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- stretching that sucker back -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 08:07:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- NOT SNOT NOR GRACE NEITHER -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 05:54:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Your tenden? -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 06:15:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Your tenden? -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 11:41:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ I. Dunno -:- NOT SNOT NOR GRACE NEITHER -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 22:10:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Ah yes, ancient secrets! -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 20:34:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ kmdarling -:- Psychobiomorphomatic! -:- Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 01:24:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ G -:- Knowledge techniques -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 03:11:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- 'Do not mistake the finger..' -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 16:47:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- '...pointing at the moon ...' -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 17:05:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- '...pointing at the moon ...' -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 05:08:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- '...pointing at the moon ...' -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 06:24:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- '...pointing at the moon ...' -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 17:46:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- 'Experience of consciousness' -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 20:48:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- 'Experience of consciousness' -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 04:47:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- 'Experience of consciousness' -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 04:59:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Sean -:- Knowledge techniques -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 03:17:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Knowledge techniques -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 06:38:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- EST -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 13:42:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sean -:- EST -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:04:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I got kicked out of one -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 21:13:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Jim, check it out!!! -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 05:03:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pierre Trudeau -:- Jim ? Illegitimate?A Bastard? -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 02:04:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- The Forum kicks ass!!!! -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 14:38:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ G -:- It kicks the ass of those into -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 15:02:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- It kicks the ass of those into -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 04:43:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- It kicks the ass of those into -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 06:33:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ selene -:- It kicks the ass of those into -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 16:54:19 (GMT)

__ __ Mike -:- Good question, Anth! -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 23:25:13 (GMT)

Deputy Dog -:- What do exes make of this? -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 20:38:21 (GMT)

__ Oshlabaka -:- What do exes make of this? -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 06:02:32 (GMT)

__ JHB -:- What do exes make of this? -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 02:32:25 (GMT)

__ __ cqg -:- ... and this? -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 14:25:37 (GMT)

__ Jerry -:- It's not about meditation -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 23:53:31 (GMT)

__ __ Selene -:- It's not about meditation -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 00:04:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jerry -:- It's not about meditation -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 02:06:20 (GMT)

__ __ ps -:- but what is insidious is -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 00:07:44 (GMT)

__ Mike -:- Ram Das uses chemicals -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 23:14:18 (GMT)

__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Ram Das uses chemicals -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 04:44:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mike -:- Ram Das uses chemicals -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 21:01:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ AJW -:- Ram Dass -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 22:35:20 (GMT)

__ Gregg -:- Nothing much -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 21:59:43 (GMT)

__ Nigel -:- And the happy ending..? -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 21:49:28 (GMT)

__ SElene -:- What do exes make of this? -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 20:40:46 (GMT)

__ __ Joey -:- Selenie...you're the best!! -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 22:00:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- those gurus have a fight -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 22:33:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Sean -:- those gurus have a fight -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 03:13:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Selene, meditation is a crock? -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 21:56:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- YOU'RE the crock, DD! (nt) -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 22:06:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Selene, meditation is a crock? -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 22:03:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ selene -:- ps dep dog about ego -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 22:09:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- ps dep dog about ego -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 04:56:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I don't need a dating service -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 05:17:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Sorry Selene -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 13:40:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Sorry Selene -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 16:47:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- Sorry Selene -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 17:19:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Sorry Selene -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 17:40:15 (GMT)

cqg -:- I'm starting to wonder ... -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 20:14:29 (GMT)

__ Nigel -:- I'm starting to wonder ... -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 23:31:09 (GMT)

__ __ cqg -:- and wonder ... -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 15:50:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ Nigel -:- and wonder ... -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 18:57:58 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- Nige, it just HAS to be -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 21:04:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ Nigel -:- Yes - except vice versa -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:08:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cqg -:- A Sound of Thunder -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 20:19:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes - except vice versa -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:53:21 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- I'm starting to wonder ... -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 20:25:37 (GMT)

__ __ G -:- the irony -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 20:51:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ Robyn -:- the irony -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 23:42:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ cqg -:- the irony -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 21:07:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ SB -:- He has to fight Us!! -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 05:07:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- He has to fight Us!! -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 05:42:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Selene -:- the irony -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 21:27:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Dunno where to go? Spamm -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 08:48:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Dunno where to go? Spamm -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 16:36:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Spamm desperation -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 13:51:41 (GMT)

__ __ cqg -:- I'm starting to wonder ... -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 20:47:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ Robyn -:- I'm starting to wonder ... -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 00:10:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cqg -:- I'm starting to wonder ... -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 13:54:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- I'm starting to wonder ... -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 14:31:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Oshlabaka -:- I don't mean to enflame, but -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 04:28:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- I don't mean to enflame, but -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 05:07:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Oshlabaka -:- I don't mean to enflame, but -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 05:23:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- I don't mean to enflame, but -:- Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 06:06:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Those quotes -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 19:10:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- Those quotes -:- Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 20:11:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- I'm starting to wonder ... -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 20:49:54 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- More secret EV's documents! -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 18:28:03 (GMT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- Get the right video! -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 18:37:35 (GMT)

__ __ Ben Lurking -:- Get the right video! -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 19:44:21 (GMT)

__ I. Dunno -:- Sell =own -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 05:47:28 (GMT)

__ __ Ben Lurking -:- Sell =own -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 11:59:57 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- This is all lies -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 08:30:24 (GMT)

Roger eDrek™ -:- Am I slow or what? -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 18:00:40 (GMT)

__ Sean -:- Excruciatingly slow>nt< -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 03:25:05 (GMT)

__ G -:- Am I slow or what? -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 18:23:14 (GMT)

__ __ Selene -:- Am I slow or what? -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 18:28:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- Am I slow or what? -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 19:55:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- test - ignore, please -:- Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 19:50:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Gregg -:- Slower every day this week NT -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 20:22:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Slower every day this week not -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 20:30:50 (GMT)

__ __ Roger eDrek™ -:- Yes, my experience exactly NT -:- Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 18:25:42 (GMT)

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 16:36:58 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Do premies secretly hate m? Message:

Reading the sickly sweet shit over on ELK one might think premies aren't human. That one-dimensional Happy Clapping (who coined that? It's great!) is spooky, it's so fake. And then you've got the premies who come here, guys like Dog and Mel. They pretend to have absolutely no curiosity about things any normal person would most definitely want to know. So even in conversation, these guys are unbelievable. Well, know what? I don't believe them! I'm of the view (probably just cause I like the idea) that scratch a premie, find an ex. That below all this smothering adulation for the fat, greasy alcoholic lies some real humanity.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 23:14:54 (GMT) From: Jerry Springer Email: None To: Jim Subject: Does Jim secretly hate change? Message:

Message removed by Forum Administrator.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 17:26:06 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Jim Subject: Do premies secretly hate m? Message:

Good question Jim. Really. I never liked him much. and it always made me feel awful. I wanted to love him. But i was in it for other reasons always. I wanted to obtain the promise of spiritual awakening. I wanted to make the world a better place. I enjoyed ( or thought I did) the sense of community. I got so isolated that all my friends were premies for a while. But M? I hated seeing him dance!! JW and I always riff on that one!! and I didn't much like kissing his tootsies. Hated the endless videos before he finally came on and sat his fat ass down in the chair. I dunno. And by that time I was so fried it didn't matter much what he was babbling about. Dunno. The folks around me seemed mesmerized but that as we know can be induced by all sorts of things. I didn't like him much, ever, as a premie. Was I weird? yes. no doubt. but were they all?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 17:23:47 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Jim Subject: Do premies secretly hate m? Message:

I think many premies feel a lot of resentment, sometimes to the point of hate, towards m. For me, there were many times I felt that way, but I didn't want to accept it. I was brainwashed into thinking it was wrong, and to disassociate from my feelings. I thought, oh, that's my mind that hates m, not me. I remember burning a picture of him years ago, but I still didn't leave him. I remember right after kissing his feet for the first time (yuuucchh), looking at him scornfully and feeling 'Your a fraud', that was my gut feeling. If I had only listened to myself. m was talking one time to or about some honcho premies and said 'some of you around here even hate me' and was laughing about it. He is a Master of manipulation. I have seen doubt and hurt in premies eyes recently (and not so recently). I think feeling hurt is a major contributor to hate. I want to get over the hurt and hate, but still oppose what he is doing. But to get over it, I need to accept that it's there and not just deny it. That's part of m's grip on people, the denial of feelings.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 19:05:22 (GMT) From: Ms. K Email: None To: G Subject: Great post, G! (nt) Message:

nt

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 18:04:46 (GMT) From: cqg Email: None To: G Subject: Do premies secretly hate m? Message:

G, you say: 'That's part of m's grip on people, the denial of feelings.' ... and then he attempts to replace those feelings and thoughts with what HE WANTS premies to think and feel. That is not the way to freedom. [Hope this link helps] Chris

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 18:11:47 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: cqg Subject: Do premies secretly hate m? Message:

Thanks! Even if it is analyzed as an ad or whatever I LOVE to see this stuff on the net!!! the more the better.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 04:43:41 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Selene/G/Chris Subject: Do premies secretly hate m? Message:

Remember when someone here quoted Joan Aptor as saying that her 'mind' would tell her she wished Maharaji would die so the whole crazy thing would be 'over.' If that's not her OWN voice trying to come out, I don't know what is! And she said this publically at a program. Now that is really sad.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 19:27:14 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Helen Subject: Confession as catharthis Message:

Hi Helen - and what a revealing thing for Joan Aptor to say. This discussion reminds me of community satsang and the way premies would use their 'opportunity to share' as a kind of pressure valve for the mind. Every night some maya-bruised brother or sister would take to the satsang chair and go: '...and it's like... my mind just comes in and says 'This whole trip is crazy ... that Guru Maharaj Ji is only in it for the money ... that it's just brainwashing or something...'' (At this point the whole satsang room chuckles merrily in recognition of a shared, all-too-familiar experience and each premie thinks 'What a relief - I am not alone in my confusion.') Premie Ji continues: '...but then I know I just have to turn inside and find that focus, that inner connection, that love, that thing which is perfect..(blah blah)... so I can see my mind for what it is - something that is trying to take me away from that Perfect Master ... that Perfect Love ... that presence... that incredible experience...' (Mixture of smiles, sighs, nods and more shared relief that there really IS an escape from the burden of our minds - and we are so fortunate to have found it, and so fortunate to be here right now being reminded of it... just to have this precious opportunity... thank-you, Maharaj ji...) Or you would get the premie who was really going through something and finding it all a bit too much: '...and sometimes my heart just feels so bleak as if Guru Maharaj Ji has deserted me... and I am just so deperate... sometimes it is just so hard to find that connection... And I don't know whether I will be able to stick the course... my mind is just SO powerful trying to take me away from his Lotus feet... And I just know I am so unworthy of his love... so unable to practice this perfect knowledge... I look for the experience but it doesn't seem to be there...' (Brotherly/sisterly concern on premies' faces, though the odd trace of a frown here or there when it is remembered that the spacer sharing hasn't been in satsang for the last two nights or contributed a button to community funds, so what can they expect..?!) But all's well that ends well... '...but I just know that I have no choice. Even if I can't feel that connection to Guru Maharaji right now, I just have to hang on in there and keep making that effort, keep praying for his Grace to deliver me from my confusion... I mean... (slight moistening of the eye)... NONE OF US is worthy of this experience and none of us should take it for granted that it will always be there or and it will always be blissful. We have to ask ourselves what is Guru Maharaj Ji teaching us? What is he trying to show me...? And it's just like Guru Maharaj ji saying what he always says: you HAVE TO get rid of that crazy ego. Stop thinking that YOU can do it, because you CAN'T DO IT. Did Maharaji really let me down, or did I turn away from him to do my own thing... because if we walk away from his shelter thinking we can just walk back in again we must face the consequences...because the mind will get us, every time. So all we can do is make that effort - so much MORE effort - pay to Maharaji for the Grace to make more effort...and then only by his Grace will that experience come...' (Premie does quick shamefaced pranam to the altar and slips quietly back to the cushion in the corner. Chastened, the assembled gathering make internal note to make more effort from hereonin and silently thank Maharaji for the timely reminder of their wretched inadequacy in the face of his everlasting gloriousness. Then they all sing Arti, solemn-faced and hurry home to meditate with a bit more effort than before.) Don't you think the communal-therapy was a major factor that provided the social glue for the cult? And that Margie made a serious error of judgement when he imagined that premies would prefer a video-only experience. The mass fallaway in numbers around 1982 certainly coincided with the end of satsang as we knew it. (Prehaps premies finally succumbed to their minds - praise the lord!)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 00:04:08 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Nigel Subject: I just love it when you talk that way, Nige Message:

Riffing on satsang is like playing old favorite tunes from my childhood. Fun eh?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:01:58 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Nigel Subject: acting out, huffing glue Message:

You hit the nail on the head--I am chuckling here to myself. I was one of those spaced out premies who used to give the weirdest satsang --too 'intellectual' (although I do not consider myself to be all that intellectual a person)-- and I could see it on the faces of the premies staring back at me. 'Oh no, here's that weird chick and I have to listen to her mind-y satsang--bummer.' It was disconcerting in the extreme. But their faces relaxed and lightened when I got to the requisite lines about being so complicated and so grateful to M for accepting me for who I am even though I am so crazy. I do agree that these cathartic confessions were what brought us together--the weary, weak, and similarly burdened with this strange religion. But part of me ALWAYS rebelled against it, I never truly gave into the experience so it was always very mixed for me. Part of me knew it was damaging and that I was throwing my dignity on the altar of self-destructiveness. I think all of us had this inkling deep down within us, that we were huffing something bad for us, like disenfranchised adolescents in the back of a parking lot, no matter how blissful it was. It was extreme and risky and that was part of the high, it was kind of like the rebellious child in us acting out and getting encouraged for it by the group.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 20:43:40 (GMT) From: just someone Email: None To: Helen & Nigel Subject: ***BEST OF*** these 2 posts nt Message:

***BEST OF*** these 2 posts nt

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 05:53:53 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Helen Subject: Do premies secretly hate m? Message:

In the mid 80s, I was doing service at a program and saw an interaction between Joan Apter and Maharaji. Joan was pissed off at him, he was acting like it didn't faze him. I didn't take in what he or she said, I think it was too confronting to my concept of him. Something was definitely wrong was the picture. I was acting the innocent nieve premie, and oh my, he smiled at me and I got tears in my eyes. I was thinking, 'What's wrong with her? See, I'm the real devotee.' Now I wonder what she was mad about. Boy, if we could get her to talk. At the same program, I saw Maharaji's wife Marolyn. She did not seem at all like the sweet beautific blissed-out devotee on the stage. She seemed on edge, a bit angry, and was walking hurredly. I wondered about that. Also at the same program, I saw Maharaji three other times behind the scenes, one time he acted annoyed because either no one opened the door for him or it wasn't opened fast enough. The other two times, he just seemed like a normal person doing a job. I rationalized the whole thing away (lila). Oh, and some 'bongo' premie jumped out of some bushes to see him. He acted very aloof and condescending, like he was tolerating an annoyance. It reminds me of seeing actors/actresses being interviewed. Some seem so different from the character(s) that the portray. But when I see them being interviewed, I recognize that that is the 'real' person, and the character is just made up. It wasn't so easy to recognize the same thing when I saw these people out of character. I think at the same program, at least the same time period, it was known that Maharaji was smoking. I notice a lot of big shot premies smoking also, obviously copying Maharaji. That was one of the weirdest things I saw.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:23:23 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: G Subject: the tangled dance of cult-hood Message:

I think it *is* like the phenomena around an actor or actress and that the whole thing is very stage-y. In a way it is a little encouraging to hear that Aptor and Marolyn were angry, or 'in their minds'. It shows that they are still people with emotions that they are well within their rights to have. I feel badly for them, it sounds like a rough row to hoe, giving up everything for this one uncertain, warped relationship. It's really a waste of 'this beautiful life' they are always going on about to be so torn in half. I am glad I am not there anymore. I am glad that I didn't have close contact with M, the less the better as far as I am concerned. Sounds like you had some up close contact with M and those close to him. Hope you are doing okay I saw this really funny movie last night-- 'bowfinger'. It is about a struggling director who makes a Hollywood movie in which Eddie Murphy is the star. Except Eddie doesn't know he is int he movie, they shoot all the scenes with him in it as he's leaving his home, resturants etc.Eddie starts really freaking out and getting paranoid because the film involves aliens and he is a little paranoid. Eddie is into this 'religion' that is like Scientology called 'Mindhead'. It is HYSTERICAL!! the film takes off on how the stars get special treatment in cults, in a mutually profitable way. It's all about profit and each party gets some need met. That's how these cults operate, otherwise they would disappear. In my case my need was to postpone growing up and to find a surrogate family. But I had to pay the piper eventually. Wish it had been different but at least I got here (adulthood) one way or another. I really can't spend my time shaking my fist at God and feeling angry about it anymore. It happened and so now I am the wiser.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 21:16:03 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Helen Subject: not much up close contact Message:

I didn't have much up close contact except with the mahatmas/initiators in the ashram.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 05:37:20 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Helen Subject: Do premies secretly hate m? Message:

THAT is indeed revealing. When did she say that Helen? Just curious if you have details. haw sad. I mean think about it. She's standing there, thinking she is giving some ' testimony ' and well I suppsose she was. You really got to me with that one.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:29:14 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Selene Subject: Do premies secretly hate m? Message:

I think Susan posted about that. I remember it really got to me too! It was as if Aptor's mind's impulse saw only one way out of the mess with M--to kill him! That is the thinking of an abused child, it assumes that the only way to be free is if the abuser dies. it is also the thinking of someone suicidal. This is what being a premie reduced us too. Horrible, eh?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 06:10:16 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Selene Subject: Do premies secretly hate m? Message:

Marolyn, then Durga Ji, once said at a program something like that God didn't give Guru Maharaji the perfect form (or maybe the best body). I guess he had to just grin and bear it, couldn't go off and yell at her in front of everyone, could he? When I saw Raja Ji demoing Maharaji's web site, I noticed some things. First of all, he didn't seem saintly at all. He mentioned saying to Maharaji 'We need a web presence.' and seemed annoyed and frustrated when he said that. I got the vibe that M had been bugged for quite a while about it. He also seemed embarrased by the web site, he didn't even show the copyright page. He seemed ill at ease. Now, on M's web site, M makes it out like a thought just popped into his head 'Oh, why not, it could be good', like it was his idea. I have a feeling that Raja Ji has a bit of resentment towards his brother. After all, he has to play less than second fiddle and has been cut out of being an incarnation of God, giving satsang, and all that. He's just a high paid chump on the payroll now. Or am I being too cynical?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 06:43:48 (GMT) From: Selene Email: cynical To: G Subject: Do premies secretly hate m? Message:

you are asking the WRONG person about being cynical. but... that copyright page is a disaster and does show dysfunction, wherever it stems from!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 06:49:12 (GMT) From: smoking? Email: None To: Selene Subject: Do premies secretly hate m? Message:

so...I picked up smoking in July after not doing it since high school. Does that mean I am still in sync with my ex guru? how not cool. selene, wondering, nothing better to do.. waitin for the meds to work

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 15:25:50 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: smoking? Subject: copying smoking? Message:

You wrote so...I picked up smoking in July after not doing it since high school. Does that mean I am still in sync with my ex guru? how not cool. No, I wouldn't say that. It seemed to me that they were copying the Guru. It was the way they seemed to be acting, like, it's cool to smoke now because M is, I'm going to show how cool I am by acting like M. To me, they were acting strange. I wondered if some of them were previously in the ashram, where smoking was forbidden. Of course I could be wrong about the situation, maybe they just wanted to smoke.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:13:53 (GMT) From: Shp Email: None To: This thread Subject: past lives of an ex-premie Message:

circa 30 AD: James, son of Heller: 'I saw that guy Jesus the other day spouting his universal love talk and he dissed his own mother! She had travelled on foot many miles to see her son and support his ministry, and how did he greet her? He spewed something like 'who is my mother and my brethren? Those who hear the will of God and do it, they are my mother and my brethren.' He talks about love and then he dissed his own mom. What a hypocrite.' or 'Mary Magdelene, what a whore! And this Jesus, this so-called Truth in flesh has befriended her (yeah, right) and now she's pouring all this expensive oil on his feet and I am sure he's digging it in more than a spiritual way, for sure. I mean just look at her rubbing those oiled up long fingers all over his toes....and just think of all the poor we could have fed with the moeny from that oil. Surely, someone who would allow such luxury to be lavished upon him by a woman of such questionable virtue could not be the messiah, or even a mensch.' circa Buddha's time: Jimji, who lives right near the famous Bodhi tree: 'This guy showed up the other day and parked his ass right under the tree I have called my own for three years! What alot of nerve! I hear he is a prince and has access to all the fortunes in the kingdom, yet he leaves all that behind and has to get into my thing. He sits there near my hut, under my bodhi tree, and silently transmits (yeah right)this peace to his disciples, and they bring him food and whatever else he needs. What a racket!' Maybe, Jim, just maybe, you are out of focus and your consciousness is pointed in a pointless direction. You are like the Hubble Space telescope. You have great potential and sight, if only you were in focus and pointed at something of real interest and value that exists in the universe, and not chasing self-created shadows like the folks in Plato's Cave. He smoked, she looked upset, so-and-so said this or that, he walked in a hurry not smiling, somebody felt something, blah blah blah. Real life. Tell me, do you scratch yourself in your itchy personal places when you are in court before your audience, or wait until you are in a private or semi-private setting? What the hell is up with you? For all of your intelligence and ability to expound, I humbly submit that you have strained at gnats and swallowed a camel. I don't expect or even want you to take my word for any of it. Just file this for now and I will wish for you the true enlightenment that you so desire. I don't pretend to be fully realized or whatever you want to call it (how is somenone fully immersed in infinity?) It's an eternally ongoing process. But I am along far enough to know when I see someone struggling with the fluff, which you are doing in this thread. Shp PS I know that the Jagdeo matter is unresolved, serious, and that people involved want answers and closure. I know that you can hit me on the head with that anytime you have nothing else to say. I also know that I as a premie want to know what's up, and have gotten no response about it to date. Silence does not automatically imply guilt, innocence or anything else to me. So if you can control yourself, stay on the track of this thread. Shp

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:55:56 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Shp Subject: Observations not condemnatory Message:

First of all, Jim did not write this entire thread. I meant no condemnation in my observations. I was pointing out that, in fact, these people are normal people with faults. As you said 'Real life'. The reason for my observations is to counteract the myth that they larger than life. Prem Pal named Marolyn 'Durga Ji' after a goddess and put her on a pedestal. Sure, that was undone, but still, he did it. His brother goes by the title 'Raja Ji' meaning roughly 'beloved King'. King of what? And Prem Pal goes by 'Maharaji' or 'beloved Great King'. What qualifies him to go by that title? He claims to be 'The Master'. Who is qualified to be 'The (one and only) Master'? I would expect that person to at least be 'fully enlightened'. Do you think that Maharaji is 'fully enlightened'? Why did he say 'as much as is humanly possible' in the 'Unique Event', referring to experiencing God? Sounds like a big retraction. Also in that video he said 'even if you do it yourself', referring to practicing Knowledge. Sounds like a con man letting people who are really listening off the hook. Maybe he doesn't want them around causing trouble. The concept of 'The Master' is in serious doubt. Do you know that Maharaji has contradicted his own father as to who was Totapuri's successor? Try doing some research on Totapuri, who is supposedly M's great-great-great-grand-guru. Here's a link The God Who is a Person. A quote for the page: 'Totapuri was a strict monist. He regarded Gods who are Persons as mythological'. As for who was to blame for the ashram, Maharaji shares much of it. Maharaji wrote the ashram manual, have you read it? Were you there at the ashram meetings with Maharaji? Let me tell you, he was HEAVY. Honestly, have you ever seen Maharaji act less than inspiring, less than enlightened? If so, was he just kidding? As for his wealth, he doesn't have all that stuff because premies take it upon themselves to give it to him. He ASKED a premie that I knew to get him at $5,000.00 watch. This premie was bragging about it. I can't even imagine what the value of his watch collection is. His collecting these watches is by his own admission 'a bad habit'. So does he have faults, yes or no? If you say no, you are calling him a liar. Many premies still regard Maharaji as God in human form. He still 'gives darshan'. What I would like to see is Prem Pal Rawat abdicating his make-believe 'Maharaji' and 'The Master' throne.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:45:54 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Shp Subject: You've got a point there, Shp Message:

I'd like to think that I would have seen through past mindfuckers like Jesus, Bhudda, etc. Not in the course, comic-book way you've imagined but then you're not the brightest light on the scoreboard, are you? Truth is, Shp, I know that I wouldn't. Rational skepticism had so little vocabulary in pre-scientific times. I'd have been in there rooting for one myth or another just like you are now.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 17:58:23 (GMT) From: Shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: You've got a point there, Shp Message:

Shp wrote: circa 30 AD: James, son of Heller: 'I saw that guy Jesus the other day spouting his universal love talk and he dissed his own mother! She had travelled on foot many miles to see her son and support his ministry, and how did he greet her? He spewed something like 'who is my mother and my brethren? Those who hear the will of God and do it, they are my mother and my brethren.' He talks about love and then he dissed his own mom. What a hypocrite.' or 'Mary Magdelene, what a whore! And this Jesus, this so-called Truth in flesh has befriended her (yeah, right) and now she's pouring all this expensive oil on his feet and I am sure he's digging it in more than a spiritual way, for sure. I mean just look at her rubbing those oiled up long fingers all over his toes....and just think of all the poor we could have fed with the moeny from that oil. Surely, someone who would allow such luxury to be lavished upon him by a woman of such questionable virtue could not be the messiah, or even a mensch.' circa Buddha's time: Jimji, who lives right near the famous Bodhi tree: 'This guy showed up the other day and parked his ass right under the tree I have called my own for three years! What alot of nerve! I hear he is a prince and has access to all the fortunes in the kingdom, yet he leaves all that behind and has to get into my thing. He sits there near my hut, under my bodhi tree, and silently transmits (yeah right) this peace to his disciples, and they bring him food and whatever else he needs. What a racket!' Maybe, Jim, just maybe, you are out of focus and your consciousness is pointed in a pointless direction. You are like the Hubble Space telescope. You have great potential and sight, if only you were in focus and pointed at something of real interest and value that exists in the universe, and not chasing self-created shadows like the folks in Plato's Cave. He smoked, she looked upset, so-and-so said this or that, he walked in a hurry not smiling, somebody felt something, blah blah blah. Real life. Tell me, do you scratch yourself in your itchy personal places when you are in court before your audience, or wait until you are in a private or semi-private setting? What the hell is up with you? For all of your intelligence and ability to expound, I humbly submit that you have strained at gnats and swallowed a camel. I don't expect or even want you to take my word for any of it. Just file this for now and I will wish for you the true enlightenment that you so desire. I don't pretend to be fully realized or whatever you want to call it (how is somenone fully immersed in infinity?) It's an eternally ongoing process. But I am along far enough to know when I see someone struggling with the fluff, which you are doing in this thread. Shp PS I know that the Jagdeo matter is unresolved, serious, and that people involved want answers and closure. I know that you can hit me on the head with that anytime you have nothing else to say. I also know that I as a premie want to know what's up, and have gotten no response about it to date. Silence does not automatically imply guilt, innocence or anything else to me. So if you can control yourself, stay on the track of this thread. Shp Jim responded: I'd like to think that I would have seen through past mindfuckers like Jesus, Bhudda, etc. Not in the course, comic-book way you've imagined but then you're not the brightest light on the scoreboard, are you? Truth is, Shp, I know that I wouldn't. Rational skepticism had so little vocabulary in pre-scientific times. I'd have been in there rooting for one myth or another just like you are now. Shp sez: I believe in my heart that you love truth and justice. I also believe in my heart that your disdain of the world teachers is misplaced. I too despise those who have misrepresented the words and messages of those teachers and have twisted them to create extremely profitable businesses within businesses called religions. (Not all religions fit this descriptions, for all you bigot-watchers, but many do.) I think you have mixed up the two in your head and are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. You need to go deeper and learn more about those masters who you so glibly condemn. High tech or low tech or no tech does not determine the character or a man. If a murderer lived in ancient times, he'd use a rock, in modern times, something more sublte perhaps. A thief would still be a thief, and so on. And a hostile cynic is a hostile cynic in any age or time. Your argument is so thin I can see your ego thorugh it, hoping I eat this without questioning it. No such luck. Your heart and how you work it determines your character, not the tools of the day. I think you know that. I am your brother man, whether we are estranged or not. And as your brother man, I urge you to look again at what you have said in these recent posts...For your own sake, not mine.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 19:19:04 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Shp Subject: Misrepresentations Message:

Shp sez 'I too despise those who have misrepresented the words and messages of those teachers and have twisted them to create extremely profitable businesses within businesses called religions.' I think it would be good to explore whether Prem Pal Rawat has misrepresented the words of those teachers. Maybe in a new thread. I think it could be a long list. I remember M describing 'Love your neighbor as thyself' as a religious concept. He was putting it down. Totapuri was a monist.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 11:14:26 (GMT) From: occasional mole Email: None To: Everyone Subject: conference call Message:

Wednesday, April 21, 1999 2:45:07 PM Message From: Marci Klein Subject: Conference Call Reminder To: MW CC John Bower Sharon Stokke Stephen Koons Cc: US Geog Grp April 21, 1999 Dear City Contacts, This letter is to confirm the conference call scheduled for April 24th from 2:45 -4:15 PM Pacific (4:45-6:15 IL, 5:45-7:15 Ohio) The phone number is 702-252-3196. This call is a follow up call to the city contact meeting held in Chicago in March. So far, we still have more lines available for this call, so if you haven't yet responded, please do so as soon as possible. The following people are confirmed for the call. Please note: feel free to invite anyone on the local team who participated at the conference or who you feel would benefit from the call to listen in on a speaker phone or extension from where you call in. Did I forget anyone? Is somebody listed that won't be on the call? If you are not on this list and want to be on the call--or if you know of someone who said they were going to be on the call but aren't on this list--please either send me a FC message or call me (847-251-1155) immediately to let me know: Confirmed: 1 Minnesota Francisca Matos 2 Minnesota Ellen MacLeod 3 Kansas Tucker Knowlton 4 Indiana George Bell 5 Illinois Marci Klein 6 Illinois Janet Keller 7 Michigan Chris White 8 Michigan Susan Stark 9 Michigan Charlotte Pirog 10 Michigan Pat Strong 11 Ohio Llee & James Sivitz 12 Ohio David & Debbie Sinensky 13 Ohio Sean & Barbara Brogan 14 Ohio Josie Phelan 15 Ohio Nancy Badet 16 Missouri John Bower 17 Kentucky Darleen Shelton 18 Michigan Janet Hayter 19 Wisconsin Doreen & Tom Giles 20 Wisconsin Jill Bonczyk 21 Michigan Don Marek 22 Ohio Ermina James 23 U.S. Sharon Stokke 24 U.S. Stephen Koons 25 Missouri George Smith 26 Missouri Peter Falt or David Yates? 27 Arkansas Kathy Stafford Listed below is the original letter that was sent out in case you need a refresher on what this call is about. It has been nearly a month since the Midwest weekend conference happened. We (myself, other geos & Sharon) thought it would be good to follow up with a conference call with all the city contacts within each geographical area, to catch up on what has been happening in the communities since the conference. The call will just be with the city contacts so that the numbers are reasonable and everyone can get a chance to give a 'brief' update. BUT--feel free to invite anyone on the local team who participated at the conference or who you feel would benefit from the call to listen in on a speaker phone or extension from where you call in. Please note....It doesn't matter whether lots or not much has been happening in your communities......no pressure.......just another chance to be in communication and contact for support. The proposed agenda, date, time and phone number are listed below. I will need you to RSVP by FirstClass or fax (847-251-1557). Once we have 30 phone ins confirmed, we will have to close the call. However, I will try to schedule another call if the first call fills up. The agenda/format for the call will be similar to this: Input from M / Inspiration Deliverable Progress - brief task group reports New Initiatives or Updates Statistics update if available by then Exciting News Next Steps / Agreements When: Saturday, April 24th from 2:45-4:15 p.m., Pacific time 702-252-3196 Please respond as soon as you can! Thanks & Warm Regards--

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 21:26:53 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek™ Email: drek@oz.net To: occasional mole Subject: Two ***Bests*** and Corporate Message:

***Best*** Maharaji's Corporate Shenanigans And everybody's comments are included.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 19:45:37 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: occasional mole Subject: Translation of Premiespeak Message:

Some translations: The agenda/format for the call will be similar to this: Input from M/Inspiration Translation: They will play a part of a tape of Maharaji blatering about something, or someone will repeat some trite, meaningless, nonsensical comment Maharaji said recently and everyone will pretend they find it intelligent, insightful, inspiring and profound. Deliverable Progress - brief task group reports Translation: 'DELIVERABLE PROGRESS????' This is a meaningles cult-word and no one has any idea what it means, although they will act they do, lest some honcho on this conference call, like Sharon Stokke, who apparently is some kind of national coordinator of something, think they are lacking in UNDERSTANDING. Like so much about Maharaji and his cult, there is an emperors' new clothes phenomenon, such that no one will ask 'What the fuck is 'DELIVERABLE PROGRESS??' This will not be asked because Maharaji probably made up this term, has no idea what it means either, but the premies have to act like it is meaningful, less they be thought of as 'unclear.' New Initiatives or Updates Translation: Some community reports progress that it is getting better at reading those canned introductions to the videos while sounding less like a brainless robot. Another community has increased their average attendance at 'video events' to 3, because a premie has been bringing her invalid mother. Another community was considering asking Mahatma Jagdeo to come to town, but for some reason Jagdeo doesn't want to enter the United States. Another community rep says they have been really considering the possibility of getting the inspiration to do something, and how blissed out they are by feeling THAT love. Statistics if available by then Translation: They won't be available, and if they are, they are padded to make them look a whole lot better than reality. [See Maharaji's website for how to lie about attendance with statistics.] Much twisting will be done to avoid facing the fact that M has a dying cult in the west. Exciting News OOOOOooooo. I can hardly wait, and I am already 'excited.' We are all very excited that Maharaji needs more money for something.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 02:44:18 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: JW Subject: Translation of Premiespeak Message:

JW, This is standard jargon you'd hear in any high tech office. I have to listen to this kind of talk every day where I work. You get used to it, and after a while it actually starts to sound 'normal.' -- Dep

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 20:44:31 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: Very funny, Joe (nt) Message:

y

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 13:40:38 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk To: occasional mole Subject: conference call Message:

I can give that statistical update right now: People participating in Maharaji's program = not many and falling Number of people who received knowledge in the West this year = a tiny handful Percentage of new PWKs who are still in touch = 0 New people interested in receiving knowledge = 0 Desperate measures to keep this trip going = a new one every week

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 12:53:38 (GMT) From: Angry Email: None To: occasional mole Subject: 'Refining Your Understanding.. Message:

..A Manager's& Supervisor's Learning Tool' (Ushers) This questionnaire is a learning tool to assist you in your understanding of the big picture of Supervision in Ushering so that procedures can easily become secondary to focus and enjoyment during the event. Please make multiple copies of the questions so that you can requestion yourself until you feel confident in your understanding. Please remember that flexibility and consciousness are the priority in all situations and that the answers provided will change as we discover new ways to proceed..(end of introduction) Translation: Learn this stuff but recognize that it might be wrong because we are such bovine-like creatures.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 15:06:02 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Angry Subject: 'Refining Your Understanding.. Message:

Was that a joke or is this really something they give to ushers?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 16:01:55 (GMT) From: Angry Email: None To: Susan Subject: 'Refining Your Understanding.. Message:

Unfortunately, this is not a joke. It was mailed to the so-called usher co-ordinators and supervisors prior to one of the Long Beach programs in the mid 90's. There was a husband-wife team at the time with the husband as head of security and the wife in charge of the ushers. Everyone thought they were very conscious. Now, that was a joke!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 16:15:30 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Angry Subject: 'Refining Your Understanding.. Message:

'Everyone thought they were very conscious' That must be the new premie-speak. I'm way behind. Back in my day, people were 'very devoted' or sometimes 'in their heads'. I like the 'very conscious' one. It means absolutely nothing and is just about as watered down and tepid as you can get.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 16:52:41 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: I thought that too... Message:

premiedom is the most buzzword laden place I have ever been. I am very conscious too. I wonder if they rate them with this? Glascow Coma Scale Eye Opening Response Spontaneous--open with blinking at baseline 4 points Opens to verbal command, speech 3 points Opens to pain, not applied to face 2 points None 1 point Verbal Response Oriented 5 points Confused conversation, but able to answer questions 4 points Inappropriate responses, words decernible 3 points Incomprehensible speech 2 points None 1 point Motor Response Obeys commands for movement 6 points Purposeful movement to painful stimulus 5 points Withdraws from pain 4 points Abnormal flexion, decorticate posture 3 points Extensor response, decerebrate posture 2 points None 1 point Categorization: Coma----no eye opening, no ability to follow commands, no word verbalizations (3-8) Head Injury Classification: Severe head injury----GCS score of 8 or less Moderate Head Injury----GCS score of 9 to 12 Minor Head Injury----GCS score of 13 to 15 Adapted from Advanced Trauma Life Support: Course for Physicians, American College of Surgeons, 1993. Back to Useful Resources Back to Main Page

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 17:04:52 (GMT) From: rate the forum premies on Email: None To: all Subject: the glascow coma scale.... Message:

I say that they all seem to display signs of minor head injury because none of them could get the full 5 points on the verbal response. Some, like our long lost Keith, are totally incomprehensible, others, like Melbourne et al, would get three or four points but never 5, confused conversation but able to answer questions occaisionally but mostly innappropriate responses with discernable words.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 08:27:40 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek™ Email: drek@oz.net To: Everyone Subject: The Y2K Chinese New Year Message:

It's the Chinese New Years if you didn't know! I'm going through a lot of grief as I prepare to pack up and move out to California for training in Silcon Valley and then on to Thousand Oaks. Hopefully, even in the midst of all of my personal chaos I can still bring you the quality posts that you've grown to expect and love. And Roger's House of Maharaji Drek will not suffer any disruption either and will be the lighthouse of truth, justice and the American way. And one day I will have a sponsor's ad boldy flying and raised like a flag of victory. Seriously though, does anyone remember the Y2K scare? The thought occured to me as I tripped over my five gallon container of Y2K water. No, I didn't buy the container. It's been a part of my way of life for years. The only thing I bought was a gallon can of stove fuel, which I just discovered yesterday was unnecessary because I already had a gallon hidden away in a closet. So, my expenses for Y2K preparation were about $5.00. Yet, that whole damn Y2K thing really had a psychological cost, didn't it? Don't you feel a bit foolish and quite relieved. I know I felt a lot of relief when nothing happened. So, let's see if I can make this post not completely OT. Yeah, I think I can do that. Don't ya think that some of the shit that Maharaji laid on and still lays on is the Y2K Chicken Little shit? I think so. Did the Houston Astrodome take off? Has the world ended? All that crap. Yeah, sure, we're all gonna die. So, what else is new? What else can you tell me? Be Quiet, It's Only Sleep from a tombstone I once saw.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 16:58:00 (GMT) From: Bouncing Betty Email: None To: Roger eDrek™ Subject: The Y2K Chinese New Year Message:

Good luck in your new job and 1K Oaks (you're just a canyon away now!). Speaking of tombstones and death/dying, my all-time fave M quote is 'that our life is just a dash between two dates.' There you go, that puts it into perspective. Jeez, what a motivation killer. 'I think I'll do nothing meaningful for the rest of my life (except send $$$), since life is nothing, anyway, but a dash...'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 13:24:22 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk To: Roger eDrek™ Subject: The Y2K Chinese New Year Message:

It's about 4550 or something in Chinese. Maharaji has always used scare tactics. Perhaps he really is evil. He's certainly a little devil. I remember my ashram days when I hated it but was afraid to leave because of what he'd said. Remember when he used to parrot on that it would soon be too late to surrender etc. That shook me up a bit at the time. He frightened some of the initiators half to death with his heavy satsangs. I think Maharaji will always use scare tactics if he thinks people are going to believe him. But if they don't believe him; what's he going to do then? Imagine, he's half way through a yelling rant and suddenly the whole audience stands up and goes, 'We're not listening to any more of this nonsense/crap/bullshit/fearmongering etc and they all walk out and he's left yelling to himself. That's just about the size of it and what's happening now anyway, at a much slower pace. I walked out on Maharaji once when he was in full mala and crown. I just couldn't stand any more of it. I was standing near the front at Kissimee and was appalled at it all so I just slunk back to one of those portable toilets and had a cigarette. Rich Neal was in full flow and the Lord was grinning on stage with his pretend flute and waving his arms about and I was sitting back in the toilet in the shadows where I belonged. His fat radiance was too much for a creature of the night such as me. Thank God for those portable toilets. After his (seemingly) all night dancing, I had to endure the multitude of blissed out premies going on about how wonderful Maharaji had been that night. I walked by the tents where the freaked out premies were being councelled and thought, 'No', that's just too wierd, even for me.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 14:42:14 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Maharaji's Millennial message Message:

There is a quote here somewhere of Maharaji, in the early 70s, talking something about how at the end of the year 2000, all hell will break out and that only people with Knowledge will be left alive. In the 'unique event' video on Jan 16, 2000, he said something like ... you know, people talk about how bad things will happen (seemed like a furtive reference to millennial talk) but when we die it all ends anyway. Oh, also, he said 'Does this world need to change? I don't know'. In 1970, during the 'Peace Bomb' satsang, he said 'I declare I will establish peace in this world'. When later asked whether this would be in the next 20 years, he replied: 'No, no, no, no, no, very soon, very soon'. Talk about a retraction!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 14:30:41 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek™ Email: drek@oz.net To: Sir Dave Subject: Chinese New Year 4698 Message:

Chinese New Year Wow! Do a search on Chinese New Year and check out the graphics on all those pages.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 16:15:26 (GMT) From: cqg Email: None To: Roger eDrek™ Subject: Grab yourself a fortune cookie Message:

'Conscious is when you are aware of something and conscience is when you wish you weren't.' Last time a cracked open a fortune cookie was in Orlando, FL, nearly a year ago. It said: 'God has given you one face, but you make for yourself another' Hm.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 04:34:05 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Everyone Subject: montreal quote, martin gray Message:

I am curious. what exactly is the quote from montreal 1998 in which fatso is talking about principles, and if you follow your principles you will sink? It sounded pretty radical, and I have not heard it before. regarding martin gray...he was very devoted for years in the wash dc area, and then became in his own words, an 'eco-evangelist'. He travels the world and speaks about power spots and has a very interesting slide show as he speaks. He hates M with a passion,and would be an interesting person to communicate with...very smart, lots of insight into the workings of dlm in the 70's, which he rose into power in the late 70's... I think he lives in sedona, arizona...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 05:40:21 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: la-ex Subject: montreal quote, martin gray Message:

Here's Martin Gray's autobiography (naturally he removed any mention of the embarrassing Guru): My career as a photographer of sacred architecture and pilgrimage sites began when I was a young boy. My father was in the US diplomatic service and because of this I was privileged to travel widely around the world. Archaeology and photography were my father's hobbies and my mother was highly educated in classical music and painting, thus from my earliest years I was immersed in the arts and antiquities of foreign cultures. When I was twelve years old our family moved to India for four years. During this period I went on frequent journeys, both alone and in the company of wandering holy men, to the temples, mosques and sacred caves of India, Nepal and Kashmir. Reading extensively in the fields of Buddhism and Hinduism, and fascinated with the mystery of the sacred places, I dreamed of one day producing an anthropological guidebook and photographic atlas of the great Asian pilgrimage shrines. After my family's return to the United States I entered the University of Arizona with the intention of studying Mesoamericam archaeology but soon left, drawn back to India by the call of the spiritual quest and the desire to become a mountain hermit in the tradition of Theravada Buddhism. While living in northern India I became a member of a monastic order and for the next ten years, both in India and the west, cultivated a deep practice of meditation. At the age of twenty-eight I left monastic life behind, returned to the US, and started two travel companies. Within three years these companies were moving thousands of people each year to the Caribbean and Mexico, and I was becoming a very successful businessman. Yet there was an emptiness in my heart and soul for I yearned to do something more aligned with my spiritual practices. My prayers were soon answered. On a journey to South America, visiting the archaeological sites of Easter Island and Machu Pichu, I experienced a powerful reawakening of my interest in ancient sacred places. So strong was this interest that I decided to pursue my earlier ambition of photographing the world's great sacred architecture. Returning to the US, I sold my lucrative companies and began a sixteen year period of traveling as a wandering pilgrim to over 1000 sacred sites in more than 50 countries around the world. Traveling mostly by bicycle and living as a monk at hundreds of temples, monasteries and sacred mountains, I conducted exhaustive mythological and anthropological study and extensive photographic documentation of the sites. During my travels I recognized the sacred places to be depositories of many of the world's greatest artistic and cultural treasures. However, because of their out-of-doors locations and their resulting exposure to industrial pollution, the sacred structures rarely receive the protective measures which paintings, sculptures, and other art pieces are given in climate and environmentally-controlled museums. Viewing this situation, I recognized that my research and travels had a greater purpose than merely my own education or the production of a beautiful photography book. Public attention needed to be drawn to the degraded condition of these wondrous art pieces so that they might be preserved for the benefit and education of future generations. In an attempt to assist in this education and preservation work I created a multi-projector slide show that communicates both the extraordinary beauty and precarious situation of the sacred sites. During the past ten years, when I have occasionally turned to the US, I have presented this slide show at museums, universities, civic auditoriums and conferences cities around the country, to more than 65,000 people. You can email him at martingray@sacredsites.com

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 05:48:37 (GMT) From: Bouncing Betty Email: None To: Powerman & la-ex Subject: Here you go, kiddies Message:

Or you can look for yourself: http://www.sacredsites.com/

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 03:22:40 (GMT) From: Sir David Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: The jury's still out Message:

OK, after reading some of the posts about whether Maharaji's evil or not, I have to concede, that I don't have enough up-to-date knowledge on Maharaji to make a definite judgement. The last time I heard Maharaji speak was in 1986 so I admit I'm behind the times. I have memories of some of Maharaji's heavy rants from way back and I know he can be really nasty and freak people out. I mean he's freaked me out a few times. His late seventies Kissimee rant actually affected me for years later and that's just one instance that is always close to mind. If as Joey described, Maharaji really did give that heavy rant at Montreal about principles and if he really did say that 'you are going to die' and was not talking metaphorically then whether he is evil or not and whether he intends harm or not - someone should shut this man up! But I think that's what we are doing here anyway. Many times I've described Maharaji's philosophy as inhuman, unnatural and the opposite of anything good and true. Does he really believe he is doing the right thing for other people or is he really only out for himself and happy to torture other people in order to fulfill his own needs? Sitting here a long way away from Maharaji's world, I can make judgements based on the distant past but I can be wrong. I'll give Maharaji the benefit of the doubt but other, more recent ex-premies may be able to paint a clearer picture. One thing is certain - Maharaji has done a lot of harm to some people. Is he aware of this and does he choose to dismiss it? Does he see it as acceptable casualties in a 'war of truth'? Only he can really answer but I don't hear anything coming from him.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 04:29:36 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Montreal: You're dead Message:

Sir David wrote: If as Joey described, Maharaji really did give that heavy rant at Montreal about principles and if he really did say that 'you are going to die' and was not talking metaphorically then whether he is evil or not and whether he intends harm or not - someone should shut this man up! I was there at that program. He did said that. I was sitting on the third row, almost infront of him. His face saying it was sacary enough that I remember premies commenting on it after. He finds enjoyment putting people down and this topic can be found in many, many videos. Premies, can you see it too? can you recognize that your Master is scary?? Evil.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 21:25:07 (GMT) From: fred Email: None To: Everyone Subject: how badly Message:

Was wondering how badly premies want new blood. A friend of mine, I think may be keeping me around just for that.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 22:52:31 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: fred Subject: Try this at home... Message:

Your premie friend will probably doing, is waiting for you to pick up on that incredible vibration that eminates from them, due to their being a follower of the Living Perfect Master, and having the true Knoweledge of the Self and all. Just for fun, you could try deprogramming your premie friend. Ask questions like? What would you say the guru's main fault is? I know it's not about money, but just out of interest, how much did you hand over in registration fees, donations, junk merchandise, video fees etc? Who pays for his private jet, mansions round the world etc? What does God taste like? How does that compare to snot? When he said he was going to establish 'Peace on Earth', get rid of guns etc, what went wrong? What is your definition of a religious cult? How would you feel if someone close to you was extremely enthusiastic about joining the Moonies and handing all her inheritance over to the Reverend? Are you in a cult? Etc. You could invite a few people around for dinner at the same time, and suggest it as a party game, after a few glasses of wine. Anth the Sadistic.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 07:31:55 (GMT) From: Candy Email: None To: AJW Subject: AJW invents a new practice Message:

Dear AJW, As silly and as unintentionally revealing as your description of knowledge is, I must give you credit for inventing a new practice, of which you seem to be the main proponent. Cutting edge stuff, indeed, for the 21st century. Giving Snotsang. Bless you, Your Sinus.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 12:15:55 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Candy Subject: AJW invents a new practice Message:

Dear Cindy, 'Giving Snotsang. Bless you, Your Sinus.' God, these are two very funny lines. :) Love, Robyn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 05:30:03 (GMT) From: Candy Email: None To: Robyn Subject: AJW invents a new practice Message:

Right back atcha, Robyn! Glad you enjoyed. Candy

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 20:13:28 (GMT) From: cqg Email: None To: Robyn Subject: AJW invents a new practice Message:

... and don't call it a nasal fixation ....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 23:11:47 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: AJW Subject: Try this at home... Message:

'What would you say is the guru's main fault?' I don't think you have to go any further than that. What premie thinks of Maharaji as having faults? I never did. I only thought of him as being my guide to perfection, my liberator. But if somebody asked me that question when I was a believer, I'd be stymied. The notion of Maharaji having faults just isn't part of the program. I mean, wasn't he the 'perfect' master? To me, Maharaji was the ideal human being, the guy who had figured it out, who had escaped the wheel of karma, and it was my good fortune to be his disciple so I could escape that wheel too. But once the thought entered my mind that he might be faulty, the whole dream began to shatter. Thinking Maharaji might have faults is a no-no. He can only be thought of as being the embodiment of perfection, as having tapped into that 'inner perfection' and becoming its master so he can impart it to those who trust in him. You just can't think of him any other way and call yourself a premie.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 00:39:00 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: AJW Subject: About snot Message:

Keep in mind that Rawat changed the 'nectar' technique to the '4th' technique and that people no longer, thank goodness, try to get their tongue back up into their sinuses, at least I hope not. Now they just put their tongue up. So someone might not understand what you mean by tasting your snot. I'm being to wonder more about this technique. How did it get started? Did it get started as just putting your tongue up/folding it back, and then people got carried away? Or the other way around? I used to hear some really crazy talk about the old 'nectar' technique. I don't know what to make of the new technique. I can maybe see it as a meditation technique in a less spiritual sense, but to say it is inherantly different from others, well, I have my doubts. Why did Rawat change it? He never explained, maybe potential lawsuits, maybe because the old technique HURT (as did the old 'light' technique) and sounds too crazy. One person mentioned here that a particular Bai (female meditation instructor) didn't even teach the old nectar technique. Hmmmm.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 00:57:17 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: G Subject: About snot Message:

Dear G, I also read here that M said to do the word, the 3rd technique(?), that you picture him swinging on a swing for god's sake! I am quite gullable but Jesus I don't think I'd fall for that! I didn't know about the change in the nectar technique. The whole point of the old way, I think, was to reach the chakara at the top of your head so what the hell is the purpose of touching the roof you your mouth! What is the 'new' light technique if you don't mind disclosing. I never pressed my fingers on my eyes and have had a lot of good sessions of light technique. Now it just happens sometimes and if I am concentrating on it then I only touch my third eye to focus there. I get lots more then those donuts. While I'm at it, any news on music? :) Love, Robyn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 03:50:35 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Another link Message:

Here's another link regarding old techniques which talks about breath techniques. and here's a link to a description of some of the breath techniques above, with the same wording, taught be a Master Prem! This guy is acting like he made it up. Techniques are also described at www.theflow.org/secrets/ but access is denied! I think they are there from an AltaVista search on 'touching eyeballs as a feather' and 'experience may dawn between two breaths'. And these are secret techniques?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 04:24:21 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: G Subject: Another link Message:

Thanks G, I checked out the new and the old tech stuff and I had a lot of it wrong, eh? I remember premies talking about reaching thier nasal cavities with their tounge and then continuing up to the eyes! Thank god, I also never heard about So Hung until I came to this forum. I wonder if I just didn't hear it but I am glad I didn't ever do that. Someone here, maybe Gail or eb mentioned that picturing him on a flippin swing! You know that keeping the techniques secret is the one thing I held onto for many, many years and even when I did tell/show someone years later, I always felt weird about it. Love, Robyn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 19:48:24 (GMT) From: kmdarling Email: darlingwave@aol.com To: Robyn Subject: NOT SNOT NOR GRACE NEITHER Message:

Hi Robyn and other exes, Just lurking after a few weeks. Had to tell you my experience of the 'nectar' technique. Before any of you get your knickers in a twist, let me reassure you that I in no way attribute this technique to MJ in any magical sense. When I got Knowledge in 1971 I was already heavily into yoga, and I was very interested in the 'nectar' technique. In yogic texts it is called Kecheri Mudra. I used to actually read a lot of yogic texts and devotional scriptures in my early premie days, and I also travelled with and translated some quite interesting Indian mahatmas (I was in Spain and South America). Anyway, I somehow got very excited about nectar technique and read or heard that yogis in India would actually cut the tendon under the tongue to stretch the tongue further back. I didn't go tthat far, but I put hours and weeks and months and years into really efforting (life was quite boring in those ashrams!) and my tongue eventually slipped behind my uvula and up the back, probably about as far up as my alleged third eye. It is sitting there now as I type. When this first happened I was very excited. There was a definite taste and a sort of electric feeling of being connected. I found that it was much easier to stay centred and be somewhat connected to my breathing when my tongue was back. And I still do. When I started experiencing this full-tongue-up-the-back thing, I realied that hardly anyone else was experiencing it, and definitely not MJ. I was disappointed when the techniques were 'changed' , although I was on my way out of the cult. I'm glad I went to all that effort. I wish I'd kept up the rest of my yoga in the ashrams, or that I had selected a cult for my spiritual tour of duty that had some healthy, physical practices. I could be superwoman now if I'd put in a few years of asanas or some other healthy thing instead of eating, 'meditating' (swaying on baragons in states of exhaustion) and doing 'service' (mostly making money at dead-end jobs to support MJ's lifestyle). I remember having an argument with Ira Woods who said it wasn't appropriate to do yoga in the ashram. When I said, what about keeping our bodies healthy, he said something about how we had given them to MJ and he would keep them healthy if we just obeyed his agya exactly. Unfortunately this didn't quite work for me! Anyway, I'm not recommending that you try tthis tongue thing. If I remember rightly, it was quite painful, although bodily pain was quite unnoticeable to ashram premies who slept on hard floors (at least in the UK ashrams we didn't have beds). In my mellowness now I'd never do it. However, I'm glad I did. I don't think MJ really knew what the point of the nectar technique (kecheri mudra) was (or, probably, any of the techniques, since he didn't meditate on them except to 'realie' them instantly when initiated). There are lots of secret yogic techniques that you can spend years perfecting and end up with a slightly altered hard drive. How about the one where you swallow cloths to clean your colon, then pull them out the other end? Let's be thankful for small mercies. Hope you're doing well Robyn. Old ex friends, please note my new e-mail address: darlingwave@aol.com love Kathryn Darling

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 08:07:14 (GMT) From: Runamok Email: None To: kmdarling Subject: stretching that sucker back Message:

I found the same thing. Had to really stretch my tongue way back to really get it to work full force. Remember the old premie/wives tale that babies are born with their tongues back? Anyone know if that is medically accurate?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 05:54:19 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: kmdarling Subject: NOT SNOT NOR GRACE NEITHER Message:

Dear Katie, Sorry we didn't get to meet this November. Thanks for your post. I looked at the link, I think G, posted for me and it shows that your tounge didn't go to your eyes but you say it does? I guess I have to look it up myself, I mean the human anatomy. I always just figured if you did it it would take a lot of time and effort and I just didn't have the motivation but I always thought it was neat to think it could be done. I never heard of or considered cutting my tenden until I read it here! I'm good Katie thanks for asking and I hope you are too. Love, Robyn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 06:15:30 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Your tenden? Message:

Robyn, You're not considering cutting your tenden are you? I doubt that you are, but I just had to ask. G

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 11:41:49 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: G Subject: Your tenden? Message:

Dear G, No, lordy no! I gave up on the nectar technique 26 yrs ago and am resigned to never be able to get my tounge up the back of my throat. Now if there were some sexual benifit, I'd of been there! :) Thanks for your concern though. Love, Robyn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 22:10:56 (GMT) From: I. Dunno Email: None To: kmdarling Subject: NOT SNOT NOR GRACE NEITHER Message:

Hi Kathryn,darling, Lovely to hear from you. I agree with you in so many ways. Don't have time to respond but will see you at the other forum with my other alias! Love, I. Dunno

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 20:34:12 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: kmdarling Subject: Ah yes, ancient secrets! Message:

Katie, I, too, used to get my tongue up there. I, too, was excited about how energizing an experience it was. It was all psychosomatic, I'd wager. Can you say otherwise?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 08, 2000 at 01:24:15 (GMT) From: kmdarling Email: darlingwave@aol.com To: Jim Subject: Psychobiomorphomatic! Message:

Dunno Feels good now. Hi Love Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 03:11:26 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Knowledge techniques Message:

See the links below. I don't understand what you mean about the 3rd technique. When I was shown the 'light' technique, I was told to press on my eyeballs from the outer part of the eyeballs, which produces a physical reaction. That was changed to lightly resting the fingers on the upper inside part. Still resting the pointer above and between the eyes, and just focusing and let whatever happens happen. I found a web page somewhere that said 'with a touch as light as a feather'. I believe it might have been a quote from Totapuri, m's supposed great-great-great-grand-guru. So I believe that the 'new' '2nd' technique, is in fact, quite old. Regarding the 'music', now the '3rd' technique. Not much of a change, now it is gently cover the openings of your ears with you thumbs, rest you hands on your head and focus. Don't need to focus on the right side. He says DON'T use ear plugs and DON'T use baragons. I don't know why he said that, he didn't explain. I find having my arms up unsupported to be distracting. And I had a really nice baragon that I made; I threw out like an obedient premie! Mr. Rawat, if you're reading this, care to explain? you might as well, since people are reading this and getting confused by me. Or are we unworthy of your divine illumination and destined to hell? A link the new techniques A link to the old techniques A link to techniques in yogic literature Love, G

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 16:47:06 (GMT) From: cqg Email: None To: G Subject: 'Do not mistake the finger..' Message:

'Do not mistake the finger pointing at the moon for the moon.' (Zen Proverb) Good links, G. Here's another: 'The Art of Centring' (quoted below:) 'These ancient teachings presented here are from the Vigyan Bhairava and Sochanda Tantra, both written about four thousand years ago, and from The Malini Vijaya Tantra, which is probably another thousand years older yet. These ancient teachings, copied and recopied countless times, Translated into English by the Venerable Swami Lakshmanjoo in his hermitage on the hills above Srinagar Kashmir, and it written here as it has been completed by Paul Reps. ' DEVI ASKS: O Shiva, what is your reality? What is this wonder-filled universe? What constitutes seed? Who centres the universal wheel? What is this life beyond form pervading forms? How may we enter it fully, above space and time, names and descriptions? Let any doubts be cleared! [Devi, though already enlightened, has asked the foregoing questions so that others through the universe might receive Shiva's instructions. Now follows Shiva's reply, giving the 112 ways.] SHIVA REPLIES: 1. Radiant one, this experience may dawn between two breaths. After breath comes in (down) and just before turning up (out) - the beneficence. 2. As breath turns from down to up, and again as breath curves from up to down - through both these turns, realise. 3. Or, whenever inbreath and outbreath fuse, at this instant touch the energyless energy-filled centre. 4. Or, when breath is all out (up) and stopped of itself, or all in (down) and stopped - in such universal pause, one's small self vanishes. This is difficult only for the impure. 5, Consider your essence as light rays rising from centre to centre up the vertebrae, and so rises livingness in you. 6. Or in the spaces between, feel this as lightning. 7. Devi, imagine the Sanskrit letters in these honey-filled of awareness, first as letters, then more subtly as sounds, as most subtle feeling. Then, leaving them aside, be free. 8. Attention between eyebrows, let mind be before thought. Let form fill with breath essence to the top of the head, a there shower as light. 9. Or, imagine the five coloured circles of the peacock tail be your five senses in illimitable space. Now let their beauty melt within. Similarly, at any point in space or on a wall until the point dissolves. Then your wish for another come true. 10. Eyes closed, see your inner being in detail. Thus see your nature. 11. Place your whole attention in the nerve, delicate as the lotus thread, in the centre of your spinal column. In such be transformed. 12. Closing the seven openings of the head with your hands, a space between your eyes becomes all Inclusive. 13. Touching eyeballs as a feather, lightness between them opens into heart and there permeates the cosmos 14. Bathe in the centre of sound, as in the continuous sound of a waterfall. Or, by putting fingers in ears, hear the sound of sounds. 15. Intone a sound, as a-u-m, slowly. As sound enters sound-fullness, so do you. 16. In the beginning and gradual refinement any letter, awake. 17. While listening to stringed instruments, composite central sound; thus omnipresence. 18. Intone a sound audibly, then less and less audibly as feeling deepens into this silent harmony. 19. Imagine spirit simultaneously within and around you until the entire universe spiritualises. 20. Kind Devi, enter Etheric presence pervading far above and below your form. 21. Put mindstuff in such inexpressible fineness above, below, and in your heart. 22. Consider any area of your present form as limitlessly spacious. 23. Feel your substance, bones, flesh, blood, saturated with cosmic essence. 24. Suppose your passive form to be an empty room with walls of skin - empty. 25. Blessed one, as senses are absorbed in heart, reach the centre of the lotus. 26. Unminding mind, keep in the middle - until. 27. when in worldly activity. keep attentive between the the breaths, and so practising. in a few days be born anew. 28. Focus on fire rising through your form from the toes up until the body burns to ashes but not you. 29. Meditate on the make-believe world as burning to ashes, and become being above human. 30. Feel the fine qualities of creativity permeating your breasts and assuming delicate configurations. 31. With intangible breath in centre of forehead, as this reaches heart at the moment of sleep, have direction over dreams and over death itself. 32. As, subjectively, letters flow into words and words into sentences, and as, objectively, circles flow into worlds and worlds into principles, find at last these converging in our being. 33. Gracious one, play. The universe is an empty shell wherein your mind frolics infinitely. 34. Look upon a bowl without seeing the sides or the material, In a few moments become aware. 35. Abide in some place endlessly spacious, clear of trees, hills, habitations. Thence comes the end of mind pressures. 36. Sweet-hearted one, meditate on knowing and not knowing, existing and not existing. Then leave both aside that you may be. 37. Look lovingly on some object. Do not go on to another object. Here, in the middle of this object the blessing. 38. Feel cosmos as translucent ever-living presence. 39. With utmost devotion, centre on the two junctions of breath and know the knower.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 17:05:59 (GMT) From: cqg Email: None To: cqg Subject: '...pointing at the moon ...' Message:

'Do not mistake the finger pointing at the moon, for the moon' Zen proverb. Re. above reply to G. The text (all 112) in full is given below: [These ancient teachings presented here are from the Vigyan Bhairava and Sochanda Tantra, both written about four thousand years ago, and from The Malini Vijaya Tantra, which is probably another thousand years older yet. These ancient teachings, copied and recopied countless times, Translated into English by the Venerable Swami Lakshmanjoo in his hermitage on the hills above Srinagar Kashmir, and it written here as it has been completed by Paul Reps.] DEVI ASKS: O Shiva, what is your reality? What is this wonder-filled universe? What constitutes seed? Who centres the universal wheel? What is this life beyond form pervading forms? How may we enter it fully, above space and time, names and descriptions? Let any doubts be cleared! [Devi, though already enlightened, has asked the foregoing questions so that others through the universe might receive Shiva's instructions. Now follows Shiva's reply, giving the 112 ways.] SHIVA REPLIES: 1. Radiant one, this experience may dawn between two breaths. After breath comes in (down) and just before turning up (out) - the beneficence. 2. As breath turns from down to up, and again as breath curves from up to down - through both these turns, realise. 3. Or, whenever inbreath and outbreath fuse, at this instant touch the energyless energy-filled centre. 4. Or, when breath is all out (up) and stopped of itself, or all in (down) and stopped - in such universal pause, one's small self vanishes. This is difficult only for the impure. 5, Consider your essence as light rays rising from centre to centre up the vertebrae, and so rises livingness in you. 6. Or in the spaces between, feel this as lightning. 7. Devi, imagine the Sanskrit letters in these honey-filled of awareness, first as letters, then more subtly as sounds, as most subtle feeling. Then, leaving them aside, be free. 8. Attention between eyebrows, let mind be before thought. Let form fill with breath essence to the top of the head, a there shower as light. 9. Or, imagine the five coloured circles of the peacock tail be your five senses in illimitable space. Now let their beauty melt within. Similarly, at any point in space or on a wall until the point dissolves. Then your wish for another come true. 10. Eyes closed, see your inner being in detail. Thus see your nature. 11. Place your whole attention in the nerve, delicate as the lotus thread, in the centre of your spinal column. In such be transformed. 12. Closing the seven openings of the head with your hands, a space between your eyes becomes all Inclusive. 13. Touching eyeballs as a feather, lightness between them opens into heart and there permeates the cosmos 14. Bathe in the centre of sound, as in the continuous sound of a waterfall. Or, by putting fingers in ears, hear the sound of sounds. 15. Intone a sound, as a-u-m, slowly. As sound enters sound-fullness, so do you. 16. In the beginning and gradual refinement any letter, awake. 17. While listening to stringed instruments, composite central sound; thus omnipresence. 18. Intone a sound audibly, then less and less audibly as feeling deepens into this silent harmony. 19. Imagine spirit simultaneously within and around you until the entire universe spiritualises. 20. Kind Devi, enter Etheric presence pervading far above and below your form. 21. Put mindstuff in such inexpressible fineness above, below, and in your heart. 22. Consider any area of your present form as limitlessly spacious. 23. Feel your substance, bones, flesh, blood, saturated with cosmic essence. 24. Suppose your passive form to be an empty room with walls of skin - empty. 25. Blessed one, as senses are absorbed in heart, reach the centre of the lotus. 26. Unminding mind, keep in the middle - until. 27. when in worldly activity. keep attentive between the the breaths, and so practising. in a few days be born anew. 28. Focus on fire rising through your form from the toes up until the body burns to ashes but not you. 29. Meditate on the make-believe world as burning to ashes, and become being above human. 30. Feel the fine qualities of creativity permeating your breasts and assuming delicate configurations. 31. With intangible breath in centre of forehead, as this reaches heart at the moment of sleep, have direction over dreams and over death itself. 32. As, subjectively, letters flow into words and words into sentences, and as, objectively, circles flow into worlds and worlds into principles, find at last these converging in our being. 33. Gracious one, play. The universe is an empty shell wherein your mind frolics infinitely. 34. Look upon a bowl without seeing the sides or the material, In a few moments become aware. 35. Abide in some place endlessly spacious, clear of trees, hills, habitations. Thence comes the end of mind pressures. 36. Sweet-hearted one, meditate on knowing and not knowing, existing and not existing. Then leave both aside that you may be. 37. Look lovingly on some object. Do not go on to another object. Here, in the middle of this object the blessing. 38. Feel cosmos as translucent ever-living presence. 39. With utmost devotion, centre on the two junctions of breath and know the knower. 40. Consider the plenum to be your own body of bliss. 41. While being caressed, sweet princess, enter the caressing as everlasting life. 42. Stop the doors of senses when feeling the creeping of an ant. Then. 43. At the start of sexual union, keep attentive on the fire in the beginning. and, so continuing, avoid the embers in the end. 44. When in such embrace your senses are shaken as leaves, enter this shaking; 45. Even remembering union, without the embrace, the trans-formation. 46. On joyously seeing a long-absent friend, permeate this joy. 47. When eating or drinking, become the taste of the food or drink, and be filled. 48.O lotus-eyed one, sweet of touch, when singing, seeing, tasting, be aware you are and discover the ever-living. 49. Wherever satisfaction is found, in whatever act, actualise this. 50. At the point of sleep when sleep has not yet come and external wakefulness vanishes, at this point being is revealed. 51. In summer when you sec the entire sky endlessly clear, enter such clarity. 52. Lie down as dead. Enraged in wrath, stay so. Or stare with-out moving an eyelash. Or suck something and become the sucking. 53, Without support for feet or hands, sit only on buttocks. Suddenly, the centreing. 54. In an easy position, gradually pervade an area between the armpits into great peace. 55. See as if for the first time a beauteous person or an ordinary object. 56. With mouth slightly open, keep mind in the middle of tongue. Or, as breath comes silently in, feel the sound HH. 57. When on a bed or a seat, let yourself become weightless, beyond mini 58. In a moving vehicle, by rhythmically swaying, experience. Or in a still vehicle, by letting yourself swing in slowing in. visible circles. 59. Simply by looking into the blue sky beyond clouds, the serenity. 6o. Shakti, see all space as if. already absorbed in your own head in the brilliance. 6i. Waking, sleeping, dreaming, know you as light. 62. In rain during a black night, enter that blackness as the form of forms. 63. When a moonless raining night is not present, close eyes and find blackness before you. Opening eyes, see blackness. So faults disappear forever. 64. Just as you have the impulse to do something, stop 65. Centre on the sound a-u-m without any a or m. 66. Silently intone a word ending in AH. Then in the HH effortlessly, the spontaneity. 67. Feel yourself as pervading all directions, far, near. 68. Pierce some part of your nectar-filled form with a pin, and gently enter the piercing. 69. Feel: My thought, I-ness, internal organs - me. 70. Illusions deceive. Colours circumscribe. Even divisibles are indivisible. 71. When some desire comes, consider it. Then, suddenly, quit it. 72. Before desire and before knowing, how can I say I am? Consider Dissolve in the beauty. 73. With your entire consciousness in the very start of desire, of knowing, know. 74. O Shakti, each particular perception is limited, disappearing in omnipotence. 75. In truth forms are inseparate. Inseparate are omnipresent being and your own form. Realise each as made of this consciousness. 76. In moods of extreme desire, be undisturbed. 77. This so-called universe appears as a juggling, a picture show. To be happy look upon it so. 78. O Beloved, put attention neither on pleasure or pain but between these. 79. Toss attachment for body aside, realising I am everywhere. One who is everywhere is joyous. 80. Objects and desires exist in me as in others. So accepting, let them be translated. 81. The appreciation of objects and subjects is the same for an enlightened as for an unenlightened person. The former has one greatness: he remains in the subjective mood, not lost in things. 82. Feel the consciousness of each person as your own consciousness. So, leaving aside concern for self become each being. 83. Thinking no thing, will limited-self unlimit. 84. Believe Omniscient, omnipotent, pervading. 85. As waves come with water and flames with fire, so the universal waves with us. 86. Roam about until exhausted and then, dropping to the ground, in this dropping be whole. 87. Suppose you are gradually being deprived of strength or of knowledge. At the instant of deprivation, transcend. 88. Listen while the ultimate mystical teaching is imparted: Eyes still without winking, at once become absolutely free. 89. Stopping ears by pressing and rectum by contracting, enter the sound of sound. 90. At the edge of a deep well look steadily into its depths until - the wonderousness. 91. Wherever your mind is wandering, internally or externally, at this very place, this. 92. When vividly aware through some particular sense, keep in the awareness. 93. At the start of sneezing, during fright, in anxiety, above a chasm, flying in battle, in extreme curiosity, at the beginning of hunger, at the end of hunger, be uninterruptedly aware. 94. Let attention be at a place where you are seeing some past happening, and even your form, having lost its present characteristics, is transformed. 95. Look upon some object, then slowly withdraw your sight from it, then slowly withdraw your thought from it. Then. 96. Devotion frees. 97. Feel an object before you. Feel the absence of all other objects but this one. Then, leaving aside the object-feeling and the absence-feeling, realise. 98. The purity of other teachings is as impurity to us. In reality know nothing as pure or impure. 99. This consciousness exists as each being, and nothing else exists. 100. Be the unsame same to friend as to stranger, in honour and dishonour, 101. When a mood against someone or for someone arises, do not place it on the person in question, but remain centred. 102. Suppose you contemplate something beyond perception, beyond grasping, beyond not being, you. 103. Enter space, supportless, eternal, still 104. Wherever your attention alights, at this very point, experience. 105. Enter the sound of your name and, through this sound, air sounds. 106. I am existing. This is mine. This is this, O Beloved, even in such know illimitably. 107. This consciousness is the spirit of guidance of each one. Be this one. 108. Here is a sphere of change, change, change. Through change consume change. 109. As a hen mothers her chicks, mother particular knowings, particular doings, in reality. 110. Since, in truth, bondage and freedom are relative, these words are only for those terrified with the universe. This universe is a reflection of minds. As you see many suns in water from one sun, so see bondage and liberation. 111. Each thing is perceived through knowing The 'self shines in space through knowing. Perceive one being as knower and known. 112. Beloved, at this moment let mind, knowing, breath, form, be included.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 05:08:57 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: cqg Subject: '...pointing at the moon ...' Message:

cqg, I read this stuff before I got Knowledge but did get it. Zen Flesh Zen Bones by Paul Reps isn't it? Beautiful words but painted cakes do not satisfy hunger. Words are just words. Good stuff though! -- Dep

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 06:24:37 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: '...pointing at the moon ...' Message:

You say 'Words are just words.' That would include words spoken by Prem Pal Rawat. Personnally, I find these written words very inspiring. Reading words can trigger something within that does satisfy hunger. Also, have you even read any words that M has said? Did it satisfy your hunger?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 17:46:13 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: cqg Subject: '...pointing at the moon ...' Message:

Thanks, that sure beats Rawat's pablum prose/poetry. Rawat's understanding of meditation is apparently quite limited. He overemphasizes 'his' techniques, and doesn't see them as one of many bridges. Surely the experience of consciousenss is beyond focusing on your breath and the feeling of your breath going in and out, etc. I don't remember him ever saying that. He only said that kind of thing about the Bible, etc. What a hypocrite. I would say that as a meditation teacher, he's done a mediocre job at best.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 20:48:38 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: G Subject: 'Experience of consciousness' Message:

Does the phrase 'experience of consciousness' really mean anything. Is there consciousness that is not experienced? Really? Personally, I think not.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 04:47:56 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Jim Subject: 'Experience of consciousness' Message:

I'm glad you asked, Jim, and I'm not sure myself, either. I say 'either' because I'm gathering that you aren't sure either. Or else you'd say '...I know not'. If you replace the word 'consciousness' with 'awareness' it's easier to conceive, as in 'experience of awareness'. Certainly you don't argue with the existence of what some call a 'higher experience'. If I've understood you correctly in the past, you explain these experiences as biological or physical but don't dispute they exist. And your argument that they're physical is sort of the same argument that God doesn't exist; that you don't really know one way or the other but it would be illogical to assume He does exist. If I follow your thinking correctly, it would also be illogical to assume the 'experience of God' (or 'experience of consciousness) is really a location or entity. Rather, it's a series of sensations in our brain. I'm just wondering if these Dawkin guys can actually prove the brain is the source of this 'experience'.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 04:59:09 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Powerman Subject: 'Experience of consciousness' Message:

Pman, I say 'I think' but I think I know, if that makes any sense. I think 'awareness' can fluctuate with a lot of things although my honest opinion is that drugs can change it more than anything. But, yes, I think it's all brain chemistry and I also think brain scientists are learning a lot about the dark continent we call our brains. Do they have many answers yet? It seems they're just getting going. But their knowledge is exploding as far as I understand.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 03:17:34 (GMT) From: Sean Email: seang2@earthlink.net To: G Subject: Knowledge techniques Message:

There's a group called 'Science of Mind' who've been doing the Perfect Master, Satsang thing for a long time. They were in the West long before M and they have the exact same techniques.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 06:38:09 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Sean Subject: Knowledge techniques Message:

yes and they have invade the corporate world. They come on in a biz pak and after they have the upper management hooked ( not hard to do unfortunately) they do their Science of mind : the other big oee is The Forum ( ironic no?) used to be EST Ereahdt(sp) though deported still runs the former est thing / WE got it bad a few years ago. group training 150 an hour.] Private consulting at the state tax payes expense? i would still like to know. ok so fire me now. I am curious how the legal process would happen.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 13:42:07 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Selene Subject: EST Message:

I went to a free Forum (EST) talk (recruitment drive) once in the mid 80s. I was invited by a premie, there was a few premies into it at the time. A couple of basic things 'taught' were 1) we don't know how much don't know, we don't know about what we don't know, something like that and 2) how to be an asshole ('assertive'). This includes telling your parents off for treating you like shit when you grew up and telling people you don't like them. I think I might have done that to my mother after going that one time, and I didn't even get into it. I remember a 'premie' who was into EST before this dutifully telling someone how he didn't like them. At the end of his talk, the big shot speaker gave people three choices, you can sign yourself up, you can have someone else sign you up, or some other way to sign up (for a two day 'workshop' costing $500). I could think of another choice. After the talk, in the refreshment area, I was literally cornered by three zombie-like Forum people trying to recruit me. They all talked like the big shot, for example, a little inflection at the end of sentences so they sound like semi-questions? I also noticed the unpaid workers dutifully hawking stuff. I think I might have actually bought a tape on 'relationships'. I think that experience gave me a new perspective when looking at and hearing pwk/premies: cult talk, blindly following orders, no criticism of group, revisionist history (no mention of EST), emphasis on recruitment.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:04:40 (GMT) From: Sean Email: seang2@earthlink.net To: G Subject: EST Message:

I'm not surprised premies got into EST at some point, you'd think they'd have gotten a clue that K wasn't doing it for them. A lot of my friends got into EST in the early '80s (the ones who weren't commies) and then moved on to Zen and then Rajneesh. Anyway, in early '75, I was in Florida trying to find work. I was staying in a friends house on his floor (gee, just like the ashram). He was not a premie. He was not spiritually inclined in any discernible way, except for the occasional stoned reverie. He was just out of Folsom and just wanted to make some money and get laid (now that I've established his non-premie credentials). He had an old paperback laying around, that was left by the old guy who had last lived in that trailer, titled 'EST-Executive Seminar Training'. I read it and it was an old account of some executive that got roped into this seminar by his company. He spent three or four days with about 4 others being tortured and tormented until he could express his 'real self'. He was locked in a cage, not allowed to go to the bathroom, etc. The pub date on this was like the early '60s. It was supposed to liberate him from what was keeping him from being a true executive. I guess we knew Werner was a con-man already, but that clinched it. I recall he said he had a vision while driving across the Golden Gate that impelled him to create EST.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 21:13:05 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: G Subject: I got kicked out of one Message:

I got dragged to yet another EST offshoot -- Evergreen. I think it was that (or maybe it was the Forum. Not a hundred per cent.) Anyway, they hustled a few newcomers into a group closing meeting. One guy was VERY open and, as luck would have it, also had a lot of money. He'd mentioned his plane, I think. They really wanted to close him in particular. So when I started asking questions adn didn't settle for their facile replies, they lost patience and kicked me out. Today, however, I'm going down to Seattle for my mother's wedding. My very successful cousins will be there. They're all big shots in EST. Let's see what happens after I've had a few drinks. (No, mom, I won't do anything to spoil the moment. We'll take it outside. Promise.)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 05:03:28 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim, check it out!!! Message:

Jim, If you do take the Forum (and I recommend you do) just sit there and do the training. Get your moneys worth. Don't try to show the trainers how lame-brained they are. Just bite your tounge and take the training. Just sit there!! It's a great way to spend the weekend. Beats a holiday hanging around on the beach or in some hotel lobby in Jamaica with your hands in your pockets. Take your issues with M into the training. I can't say what will happen but I guarantee you that something positive will come out of it. It's packaged Buddhism, a course in vipassana. It's good stuff! Trust me on this. And when the course is over you go home. No cult, honest. -- Dep

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 02:04:54 (GMT) From: Pierre Trudeau Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim ? Illegitimate?A Bastard? Message:

Message removed by Forum Administrator.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 14:38:03 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: G Subject: The Forum kicks ass!!!! Message:

G, The Forum (which used to be called est) kicks ass! I recommend it anyone. It's not surprising a lot of premies are into it. I didn't much go for their sales techniques either. It's a great way to spend a weekend though. If you want to kick start your life, check it out! Ties in with Buddhism. It's just a course. You pay your money, take the training, and then leave. --Dep

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 15:02:30 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: It kicks the ass of those into Message:

it. Did you read what I wrote? Do you actually believe I would be interested in it? See The Con-Forumists. and URBeing Manipulated - The Forum It is not just A course. And I don't want to learn how to manipulate others. What didn't you like about their sales techniques?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 04:43:04 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: G Subject: It kicks the ass of those into Message:

G, You say, 'I never participated and I have no plans of doing so.' Yet you have an opinion about it? Take the course and then I'll listen to your opinion. I don't like their sales techniques. In fact I took the course in spite of the pressure, i.e. they almost talked me out of it. --Dep

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 06:33:34 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: It kicks the ass of those into Message:

Yes, I formed an opinion about it from the intro lecture, from observing the strange behavior of those into it, and from what I read about it. And don't tell me what to do. You sound like one of them.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 16:54:19 (GMT) From: selene Email: None To: G Subject: It kicks the ass of those into Message:

I HATED the intro thing I went to at the pressure of my employer at the time AND the fucks had the nerve to get my private phone number from my boss and call me twice a week. I remember one call where I politely (yes yes me) said I didn't have th $800 for the introd seminar and the asshole on the other side of the line said to me ' have you thought much about why you are poor'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 23:25:13 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: AJW Subject: Good question, Anth! Message:

AJW: This one got more than a belly laugh.... 'What does God taste like?' I LOVE IT! :-) You ARE a sadist, you know! Talk about a lively dinner conversation.... :-)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 20:38:21 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Everyone Subject: What do exes make of this? Message:

Everyone, I posted the following quote to Jim. Jim chose not to comment on it. What do other exes make of this quote? Can you relate? As my old and much loved mentor Ram Dass said, 'Very often people report to me that meditation has brought an emptiness into their life. Everything seems meaningless. It takes great faith to ride through such heavy periods of spiritual transformation. I recall the near anger I had towards spiritually as I saw my favourite rushes fall away. Things I had previously gotten great thrills from became empty. Meditation brings this change. It lessens the highs and lows. As they disappear we sometimes feel a sadness and depression, a sense of having lost the richness and the romance of life. In a way it is sad to so one's story line turn into empty form. The dark night of the soul is when you have lost the flavour of life but have not yet gained the fullness of divinity. So it is that we must weather that dark time, the period of transformation when what is familiar has been taken away and the new richness is not yet ours.' Your thoughts. Dep

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 06:02:32 (GMT) From: Oshlabaka Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: What do exes make of this? Message:

Remember me? The current Premie. The one who is getting a kick out of making trouble, enjoying the spice of life, and enjoying my steak dinner.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 02:32:25 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: What do exes make of this? Message:

Dog, You talked about meditation. Many of us have said that meditation can give positive reults. Now can we talk about the fat guru please? John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 14:25:37 (GMT) From: cqg Email: None To: JHB Subject: ... and this? Message:

New Delhi, April 1991: 'I can understand what it means to be born as an ant or worm in your next birth... ' Thank you and goodnight, Mahawriggly ...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 23:53:31 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: It's not about meditation Message:

It's about devotion. It's about faith in Maharaji that he is THE ONE. Anybody can teach anybody meditation. And most can probably do a lot better than Maharaji ever has. Heck, there was a time when he never taught meditation. He had chosen devotees do it for him. Now he's the one who teaches it to hundreds, sometimes thousands of people at a time, and then sends them on their merry way, probably never again to review the techniques ever again. From then on, its all about establishing a master-devotee relationship. Maharaji's whole purpose from that point on, and before, actually, is to 'teach' the student that humility and surrender is the key, not meditation. It becomes imperative to Maharaji that premies understand the the key ingredient is complete faith and trust in him as their savior. In the devotees mind there must be no doubt that without Maharaji life is meaningless, void of purpose. Meditation is merely one of the rituals of being a devotee along with going to videos and doing service. But the real 'joy' in being a premie is faith in Maharaji, that you have been saved by him, that your life now has purpose because of him, and through him you will fulfill that purpose. So don't overemphasize meditation, Dep. Maharaji never did.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 00:04:25 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Jerry Subject: It's not about meditation Message:

ah but he DID change the emphasis from devotion to meditatio in the K-lite years when he or his PR people got the message that the devotion thing had to be down played or he'd either be sent the way Earhert (EST) i.e. deported or else risk bad media attention or lose the western new recruits. That was in the mie 80s - now may have been earlier (after Jonestown?) but that is when I picked up on it. So DD is just being a good premie.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 02:06:20 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Selene Subject: It's not about meditation Message:

Hi Selene, I'm not so sure Maharaji changed his tune about his own importance in comparison to meditation. I was in this thing, on and off, until the summer of 1998, and I always remembered Maharaji stressing the importance of having a master and being beholden to him. He did stop all the talk about being the Supreme Power In Human Form, but if my memory serves me right, he still stressed his importance and how 'keeping in touch' with him was of the utmost importance, more important than anything. In fact, I rarely ever remember him talking about meditation at all. It was always the master this, the master that. Remember Kabir? He couldn't speak enough about him. And why? Because all Kabir wanted to do was sing the praises of his master. Maharaji wanted us all to be just like that. Nothing gets Maharaji's motor running quite like talking about love for the master. That's the love he really wants premies to get into. That's the love that true premies, as far as Maharaji is concerned, ARE into. Sure he talks about 'that place within', but he also wants it to be perfectly clear that without him, that place is inaccessible, not only to people without Knowledge, but to people with it as well. Go figure.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 00:07:44 (GMT) From: ps Email: None To: Jerry Subject: but what is insidious is Message:

it never really changed behind the scenes. That is what is so wrong.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 23:14:18 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Ram Das uses chemicals Message:

Hey Dep: In an interview in the current issue of Tricycle (buddhist mag) Ram Das says he is using psychedelics again. If years of meditation has done so much for him, why is he using chemicals? Don't blame me..... it was HIS words.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 04:44:05 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Mike Subject: Ram Das uses chemicals Message:

Mike, Saw the article too. And this is even after a stroke. Ram Dass is still a beautiful guy though. The 60s just got too strong a hold on him I guess. You don't need drugs IMO. Dep

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 21:01:19 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Ram Das uses chemicals Message:

Dep: I don't hate the guy or even dislike him, for that matter. I tend to agree (with some reservations) that alot of people wrongly hold him accountable for the guru-seeking that occurred and thus, by default, for the mistakes that were made in the search (I know that I did, for a short while). Personally, I think it would have happened anyway and/or someone else would have made the seek-a-guru recommendation, if it hadn't been him. Actually, I met him once, long ago (late 60's.... back when he was plain old Richard Alpert) and, like you, I found him to be an exceptionally nice guy. My opinion, in that regard, hasn't changed. As far as I'm concerned, he is/was just as deluded on this issue as we are/were. I just wish he hadn't been such a high-profile guy with so much 'clout'..... he he he :-) I DO wish him well on his stroke recovery.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 22:35:20 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Ram Dass Message:

Hi Dog, wasn't Ram Dass that Harvard psychology professor who blew his brains out on acid in the 60s, changed his name and set himself up in the guru business? Anth the Was There Then.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 21:59:43 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: binduesque@yahoo.com To: Deputy Dog Subject: Nothing much Message:

Deputy: An oft-repeated sentiment, this one by Ram Dass, and like many truisms/cliches, a useful one. You gotta keep on working/meditating/hoping or whatever it is for you through the hard times. Well, you don't gotta, but it's often good advice. And it's always good advice to accept the highs and lows of spiritual life or just plain life for what they are, not to weave an elaborate story line about them or take drastic measures believing that it's always good to feel good. However, this whole discussion has nothing to with my four years with Maharaj Ji! I left him not because I was experiencing a long dark night of the soul. On the contrary, shutting out 'the mind' and 'the world' in favor of 'an experience' and fellow believers kept me in a pleasant haze for those years. I can understand how a premie -- or whatever they're called these days -- continues to follow Prem Pal. But I can't understand how someone who visits this site -- and has some ideas about what Being Guru Maharaji is like: the drunkenness, the lack of real insight into the enlightened state...how someone like that, like you, can continue to follow the 'Guru.' Oh, I forgot. He's not a leader anymore! So you don't follow him! You just...oh, never mind.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 21:49:28 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Deputy Dog Subject: And the happy ending..? Message:

Well the bleak patch sounds familiar enough, but the 'fullness of divinity..?' Give me the richness and romance, any day.. 'Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven' (Milton)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 20:40:46 (GMT) From: SElene Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: What do exes make of this? Message:

Sounds like Lithium. If you have to take it, you better!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 22:00:28 (GMT) From: Joey Email: None To: SElene Subject: Selenie...you're the best!! Message:

I love it! Just love it!! :::))

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 22:33:12 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Joey Subject: those gurus have a fight Message:

ahead of them in the cometitiona against the US 'better living through chemistry' Not Lithium though. That stuff sucks big time. Hey you. How are you?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 03:13:14 (GMT) From: Sean Email: seang2@earthlink.net To: Selene Subject: those gurus have a fight Message:

If DD thinks meditating is going to free him, or anyone, of EGO, he's completely befuddled. If you're alive on this earth, you have EGO. It's part of life. So is pain, so is dirt, so is stink. And we can't even see the joy without them. So if you've been brainwashed into thinking EGO is your enemy and you've got to escape from it, there's only one way-so go to it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 21:56:46 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Selene Subject: Selene, meditation is a crock? Message:

Selene, If you think meditation is a crock and it doesn't take you anywhere then by all means stop doing it. Stay in your ego and find true happiness there. Acquire more stuff, eat more food, have as much sex as you can. Good luck! Dep

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 22:06:33 (GMT) From: Joey Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: YOU'RE the crock, DD! (nt) Message:

nt

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 22:03:13 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Selene, meditation is a crock? Message:

EXCUSE me where exactly did I say in my post the words 'meditation is a crock'? this is exactly the type of so called discussions I used to try to have with premies. sorry, ain't going there. If I recall you were asking about the place one gets to 'in between' the wild ride of the mind and the so called bliss M brings or some implied such. or to bring it down a notch the place any meditation can bring which I find more palatable. No I do not find meditation in general a crock. Nor do I think maharaji ownn any of those techniques or has any special patent or gift of dispensing them. How do you even know if I meditate or dnn't meditate? You are making yourself look silly.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 22:09:25 (GMT) From: selene Email: None To: the dep Subject: ps dep dog about ego Message:

i have refrained from reading any of your posts for monts ever since one I read way way back it went something like this addressed to gerry 'Gerry I think you should have a go at Selene' hey Dep were you in your ego when you wrote that or was it divine agya cause if it was divine agya I think both Gerry and I should know!! you sleazy creep

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 04:56:53 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: selene Subject: ps dep dog about ego Message:

Selene, I remember that. I was trying to help Gerry out. It's a guy kind of thing and it was divine agya. I'm just trying to bring people together. Gerry was good for you, but I don't know about this Joey guy. Thanks for responding to my Ram Dass quote. Dep

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 05:17:06 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: I don't need a dating service Message:

oh how nice of you to decide what man is good for me. (i admit I do like Gerry only because I like him for his writing) There are cult leaders that do that for women you know. Mahahaha was smart enough to get good PR guys to steer clear of that mess -- me i choose my own men and fail miserably at times and also am married by the way. Thanks anyway for the asinine attempt at help and you are are not welcome.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 13:40:00 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Selene Subject: Sorry Selene Message:

Didn't know you were married. Sometimes I get a little overly familiar. You won't have to put up with much longer. I'm running out of things to say. Dep

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 16:47:44 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Sorry Selene Message:

You won't have to put up with much longer. I'm running out of things to say. awww Dep don't go changin.... I'm not mean. and I'n not NICE, just me. I'll be here and you will too and you know it. Something brings you here. BUT I won't be reading or responding to your posts except in those days and/or nights of mania like yesterday so don't worry about me. (too much heh) Glad we got the matchmaker thing straight though. I have enough problems with that w/o external (or psuedo divine) intervention!!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 17:19:06 (GMT) From: cqg Email: None To: Selene Subject: Sorry Selene Message:

Selene, you are too, - nice that is. Is Deputy Dog leaving or not? 'I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me.' (Fred Allen) ...but this is none of my business is it? (no it's only a public forum)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 17:40:15 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: cqg Subject: Sorry Selene Message:

Hi cqg I don't know WHAT dep dog plans and don't wanna know. But I doubt he is leaving. I have this theory.... but it's too weird. but I have this other theory that isn't so weird. that being.. IF he is a premie THEN he is one of the more honest ones. he comes forth and posts. ENDIF and he won't be goin for that walk and you know? I really hope he doesn't I hope he sticks around and gets to like the place ( not that I do all the time but that's real life no?)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 20:14:29 (GMT) From: cqg Email: None To: Everyone Subject: I'm starting to wonder ... Message:

I'm starting to wonder ... ... if the Maha isn't really quite so unhappy at being the centre of all this attention? Could it be that, from his point of view, 'The only bad news is no news'? Or have I misquoted?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 23:31:09 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: cqg Subject: I'm starting to wonder ... Message:

Well I did have a boss who used to say: 'There's no such thing as bad publicity', and, as Oscar Wilde once famously commented: 'There is only one thing worse than being talked about, and that is NOT being talked about...' But serious answer: I suspect Maharaji is frightened, for the simple reason he has NO IDEA what the future will bring. He may kid his followers that everything is his lila, but - as the saying goes - 'you can only predict the future after it has happened'. Same for gurus as for Uri Geller. Maharaji can only explain his perfect lila after he has done it. But if you think about it: his fortunes to date do not depend on, or benefit from the spread of information about him by outside parties. In fact, as anals go, Margie is information control-freak numero uno. I cannot believe he is happy about what ANYONE says about him, premies OR outsiders, apart from what HE says about himself. Because Prem's account of himself is the only one a premie hears. Surely no accident..? But as for long-term effects, I don't think any of us can begin to predict the fortunes of a cult any more than Wall Street can predict a money market. Cults must be subject to the vagaries of chaos theory as any other complex system. 'Butterfly effects' all over: for instance, Rosy Boycott (editor of the Express) made a hasty editorial decision one morning not to run a story about Mahatama Jagdeo that might have turned Fleet Street's highest-paid hack (Jonathan Cainer) into damaged goods and dragged the Lard's good name down with him. She might have chosen the other way and we would be seeing UK membership start to palpably plummet. Either way, M had no control - which, I think, is what he hates the most. On the other hand, cult involvement generally is on the up in Africa, South America and the far east (countries with third-world economies where cult-awareness and living standards are low and hopes for miraculous easy ways out are high). It is like the tobacco industry: clean out the western countries until credibilty is spent then move on and do the whole thing all over. From the satsangs that Maharaji gives in India, and the size of the crowds, I see no serious obstacle to him playing Lord of the Universe there for a few more years. Or in Africa, where an impersonator of his in Nigeria has had 'em toiling at the lotus toe-face for years. (Hey - what happened to that Austrian guy - was it 'Ivan' or something, and his sister who visited the forum about a year ago? Both served serious time in the African Guru Maharaj Ji's copycap cult.) But living standards, education and web-based information flow might increase in those countries faster than M can secure his foothold. Any serious loss of reputation in the West (say, from child abuse or Inland Revenue-type scandals) could stop it all happening by advance negative publicity. A few more mad millennial cults could self-destruct or gas a few city centres causing universal suspicion of all such one-man-with-a-message movements. Perhaps practising premies everywhere will quickly come to hate satellite transmissions. Maharaji himself might suffer illness or accident - which wouldn't matter in an orthodox business, charity or church but doesn't look so good when it happens to God. (No wonder they hushed-up that Shri Hans-with-the-bar-of-soap saga.) And let us not forget that of all the people who ever received 'Knowledge', only about 10% still practice. Evidence that you can only sell shoddy goods for so long. So I predict a gradual, all-too-slow downward trend in the business fortunes of Prempal Rawat. In business for another ten to fifteen years, max. But then, I am a pessimist, and even my pessimism is subject to chaotic effects... But if his reputation does eventually crash and burn - well, I know it is a cliche - then not even the money will save him from himself. So what then.. Betty Ford...? Pacific Island retirement...? Moon-style, insular mini-republic in Amaroo..? Loafji mentioned how P looks in the mirror each morning and shaves the Lord of the Universe. When the time comes he will have to - for the first time ever - shave no-one else but Prempal Rawat, child-prodigy-turned-'whatever happened to..?' Money, or no money - I won't envy him then.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 15:50:23 (GMT) From: cqg Email: None To: Nigel Subject: and wonder ... Message:

Hi Nigel, What the future will bring? I wonder. Am I right in thinking that 'Butterfly effect' refers to Ray Bradbury's story about the time-traveller who steps on a butterfly in the age of the dinosaurs, returns to the present, and finds everyone speaking a new language and a different president in office? Yes? If so, then it really is rather juicy to think how close Rawat was to the BIG exposé he's been dreading all these years. Rosy Boycott and Jonathon Cainer have a lot to answer for, ... but maybe, it's ... just that the time was wrong. BTW, you mention one thing in your eloquent (and lengthy) post that I'm thoroughly ignorant about: viz the bar-of-soap saga with Shri Hans. Sounds interesting - where can I find out more? I'll share a little secret with you here. My biggest fear/greatest desire is that the Maha sees himself like this. Enjoy, Chris

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 18:57:58 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: cqg Subject: and wonder ... Message:

Hi Chris, Yeah, one wordy bastard aren't I?:) I'm beginning to get REALLY sick of the sound of my own voice. No kidding. God knows what it must be like for others. Anyway, the 'butterfly effect' comes from chaos theory, and I don't think it is associated with the Bradbury story. Basically the theory shows that the difference between whether or not a hurricane occurs can be decided by something as slight as a butterfly flapping its wings (or not) on the other side of the planet. (Which is why the weathermen always get it wrong...) I can't help with the source of the bar of soap story. But I have heard from many forum sources the apparent fact that Shri Hans did not depart this earth in blissful meditation. Instead he slipped on a bar of soap in the shower and fractured his skull. (So strange it must be true, I reckon.) Cheers, Nigel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 21:04:23 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Nige, it just HAS to be Message:

Nigel, You bet your booties the 'butterfly effect' came from that story. And why not? Just about everyone in the known universe read it in grade seven or eight. Thankfully, it wasn't written by L. Ron.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:08:49 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Jim Subject: Yes - except vice versa Message:

Hi Jim, Reading Chris's post again, I reckon you are right and there has to be a cross-reference between chaos theory and Bradbury's tale (which I have never read). But wouldn't it be the other way around? Bradbury reading chaos theory before choosing the butterfly to symbolise the change in initial state that causes disproportionate effects? I know chaos theory has been around since the late fifties - even if it has only recently become widely discussed (probably because of computer-power now being able to model chaotic effects.) Anyway, I wonder what we'd all be doing right now if that member of the Rawat household or serving premie hadn't left the bar of soap lying around..? I mean, if the Hamster had come to the West ten years later thanks to Shri daddy living a while longer, I doubt he would have had anything like the impact he had in 1971 as boy-god saviour of the washed-up acid-casualty generation. By 1981 (post-punk, post-Jonestown) cults were seriously uncool and if you didn't already have a solid devotee-base it would have been pretty damn hard to make yourself a proper living in the God business.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 20:19:44 (GMT) From: cqg Email: None To: Nigel Subject: A Sound of Thunder Message:

wordy bastard? You flatter yourself. Tell it to Ray Bradbury

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:53:21 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Yes - except vice versa Message:

Nige, It's so much more likely that nascent science guys would have read Bradbury, who didn't need a vehicle anywhere near as fancy as Chaos theory to write the story (which, some might not know or remember, is about some 'time tourists' who travel back to dinosaur days and are warned to stay on the the path and not disturb anything, although one guy does do something or other -- break a twig or something [kill a butterfly?] -- and thus change the entire course of history, to wit, Shp was never seduced into stupid new-age thinking [which didn't exist, thankfully] but instead became a very sharp investment banker]). On the other hand, maybe you're right. And, obviously more importantly, I agree with everything else you wrote. Alas!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 20:25:37 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: cqg Subject: I'm starting to wonder ... Message:

I don't know. I think he hates this site. He only wants to be adored as any meglomaniac would. I have heard about his temper tantrums and rages. He'd never admit it of course. but I did hear him n LB in 97 make fun of the Internet. This after several other previous events I attended where he was all puffed up about his computer toys and net surfing etc. so... it doesn't take a rocket scientist to guess why he suddently had disdain for the net. but you know what? I don't care about his opinions. But I do like so so just wanted to respond.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 20:51:37 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Selene Subject: the irony Message:

Here's something ironic - I heard him talk about how what's on the internet is just a bunch of bs. That didn't make sense to me, I knew there is valuable information out there. I got suspicious and wondered if there was stuff on the internet that was negative about him, and that he didn't want me to see it. I was tired of him telling me what to do, and for him to tell me not to look at the internet was absurd. So I did a search and found what he didn't want me to see, including this site. It had a big impact. I didn't 'leave' him right away, but later on did. So Rawat, what you said was instrumental in me dumping you.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 23:42:05 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: G Subject: the irony Message:

Dear G, That is just great. I think that many premies wouldn't have looked here if he hadn't mentioned it. Bless his heart. Love, Robyn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 21:07:38 (GMT) From: cqg Email: None To: G Subject: the irony Message:

The Maha said that 'what's on the internet is just a bunch of BS.' ???? How come he spams Altavista so succesfully then?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 05:07:58 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: cqg Subject: He has to fight Us!! Message:

That is why he spams his crap, to try to keep the curious premies busy: so is hard to find our links? The battle have begin And he is losing. He wanted to keep us away by saying that the Internet is not not the Communication Highway but a parking lot. He put the Internet down. Hehehe... I didn't understand why I heard him say it because I always liked the internet, but now, an ex, I know he just wanted the premies away from the exes site. His agya, You know? If the master says is bad bad it's. Again. Snicky evilish guru we found. Asshole!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 05:42:16 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: SB Subject: He has to fight Us!! Message:

SB I just want to tell you to keep up the good work you are so inspiring. you remindme of me when I was new. It makes me envious of how I felt when I was SO angry. but I am happy that my healing is happening - don't worry about it, you are doing fine! let it rip girl good for you!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 21:27:21 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: cqg Subject: the irony Message:

my all time fav (paraphrasing here thankfully don't remember exactly) 'What good is an information superhighway if you don't know where to go on it?' or some such bs ....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 08:48:20 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Selene Subject: Dunno where to go? Spamm Message:

Here's Rawat's most secret megaplan: Spamming all the search engines, so that whatever you search you start, Rawat's here to give you the true answer ! Ha ha ha ha ha !!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 16:36:25 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Dunno where to go? Spamm Message:

so true JM he hates the net so much but wants to make sure he is Number one on the search engines! good one!!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 13:51:41 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Spamm desperation Message:

JM, Rawat forgets that people are not stupid. Once more he is making a Fool-with capitals, Big- out of himself. In the process to save the US businness his advisors are making again a mistake. It's so obvious. They have a link for each and every thing they could think of, just to ocupy space. And I bet you premies think that it's to save them time finding crap, because 'Rat and EVital' are so nice, so loving!! hahahaha He's fat, he loves Spam! Pig? Figured...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 20:47:49 (GMT) From: cqg Email: None To: Selene Subject: I'm starting to wonder ... Message:

'He only wants to be adored as any meglomaniac would ... ... I think there's a part of megalomania that just does it for the attention. (But how would I know?) ;] Maybe there's a bit of sado-masochism in his make-up? But, sod it - he's still the centre of our attention. This needs thinking about. i think

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 00:10:30 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: cqg Subject: I'm starting to wonder ... Message:

Dear Chris, 'But, sod it - he's still the centre of our attention.' This is something I have thought of before and even posted about. When some people have said recently that kind people don't have a place on this forum I thought of this, that people like Katie and I have gone well beyond our lives with m. Katie came here because of a dear friend and I came here because I did a search out of boredom from a job I had that was winding down. I care about the people I have met here and in giving aspirants and premies a place to see the other side. I also think it is good that people still breaking away or whatever other level they are at see that there are some people who have been there who are so over it all. That there is truly life after and WITHOUT M! Love, Robyn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 13:54:17 (GMT) From: cqg Email: None To: Robyn Subject: I'm starting to wonder ... Message:

Thanks for the support, Robyn, How to be really free of M? I guess we'll get the job done one of these days ... Found this yesterday: The Zen Master warns: “If you meet Buddha on the road, kill him immediately!” 'This admonition points up that no meaning that comes from outside ourselves is real. The Buddhahood of each of us has already been obtained. We need only recognize it. Killing the Buddha on the road means destroying the hope that anything outside of ourselves can be our master. We must each give up the master without giving up the search. The importance of things lies in the way we have learned to think about them. How often we make circumstances our prison and other people our jailers! At our best we take full responsibility for what we do and what we choose not to do. The most important struggles take place within the self.' Some of the 927 Eternal Truths: 18. If you have a hero, look again: you have diminished yourself in some way. 20. All evil is potential vitality in need of transformation. 37. It is most important to run out of scapegoats. 40. All of the significant battles are waged within the self.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 14:31:33 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: cqg Subject: I'm starting to wonder ... Message:

Dear Chris, 'All of the significant battles are waged within the self.' Thanks, that was a great post but this line is pretty much what I try to do. Even when something from outside effects me it most often eventually goes back to something in me to be worked through. I also really like the one about needing a guru deminishes something in yourself. Gives up some of your own personal power to someone else. Sharing yourself with someone is a good thing but to give yourself away is another story. Love, Robyn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 04:28:25 (GMT) From: Oshlabaka Email: jdonohue41@cs.com To: Robyn Subject: I don't mean to enflame, but Message:

Just to remind you, I am still a premie. I never apreciably donated to Maharaj ji, I went to festivals, I 'get off' on his esscence, I never sacrificed my lifestyle, my morals, or my ethics. Try to remember when you first heard Maharaj ji. The Impulse was to hug someone. The connection wasn't just between you and Maharaj ji, but you and everyone else, and everyone else even outside the stadium. What Maharaj ji gave me, was the connection between my selfish life and the vibration of others. It made me feel more connected with the world, not separated from it. I'm just starting to realize that there is such a thing as a pro active response to getting 'Bissed out!' Knowledge itself does nothing physical. It doesn't cure disease--but with that connection, one could work to cure disease with the attitude that you are curing yourself. I know you feel damaged, but what did you give, what did you sacrifice, do you feel stupid that you kissed someones feet? There is other responses to Knowledge besides buying him a car. I am surprised other Premies haven't discovered that yet. One more thing...If you please, you may call yourself an ex-devotee, but try not to think of yourself as an ex-premie. Keep the lover inside of you always!!!!Jai Ho!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 05:07:31 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Oshlabaka Subject: I don't mean to enflame, but Message:

Dear Osh, I never donated much either but can you see where that made the load much heavier on some premies who were donating and building and leaving their families to do so, much heavier. The guru still needed things to his standards and they were very high. Only the best of the best. I first heard of the meditation, m was an after thought. I still value the meditation, or the 2 techniques I still use. 'What Maharaj ji gave me, was the connection between my selfish life and the vibration of others. It made me feel more connected with the world, not separated from it. ' I already felt a strong connection to the world and the people in it before I ever heard of K or m. What I got from my time there was the benifit of meditation. I don't know if it is god inside or not but at the least it is a calming, centering activity and has, for me, positive results. I do think those results are physical though. I think a positive attitude can and does help people heal themselves sometimes and that that isn't just a function of K. I don't know if you were really addressing your post to me but I do not feel I was damaged. I just believe the personal stories of those who were and even though I thankfully escaped that I am still affected by the damage others incurred. I also hold M responsible for the damage he and his cult have caused individuals and families. I am an ex-devotee, ex-premie is just a label. I am not hindu. I probably have more love inside me then some here can stomach. Love, Robyn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 05:23:58 (GMT) From: Oshlabaka Email: jdonohue41@cs.com To: Robyn Subject: I don't mean to enflame, but Message:

I don't get it. In the starting over 'thread' you seemed personally hurt. I felt it inside of you. Maharaj ji never ordered us to sacrifice our wallets. We (some of us) gave willingly. He never demanded a car. We(some of us) gave willingly. Maharaj ji knows the Premie population is getting older and more into family life. He isn't asking, but some of us are still giving. It's nice but, not nessisary. Personally I'd rather fight injustice in the world.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 06:06:36 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Oshlabaka Subject: I don't mean to enflame, but Message:

Dear Osh, I just looked in the active and inactive lists for that Starting Over thread and didn't find it, of course I don't remember it at all. Maybe it is just because I feel strongly because of reading the personal accounts I mentioned. I lived in a premie house and gave my pay check over to the treasurer and it never bothered me. I was taken care of and allowed to go to concerts and away for the weekend a lot, these things were paid for by the house money. I just know that others paid dearly. I don't pretend to know what is going on inside the premie world but I do know money is being funnled to m somehow to support his lavish life style and I know some people who write here have sacrificed big time to provide him. This is small potatoes in the big picture for sure but it is what this page is about. It takes lots of little pieces to make up the whole. I have nothing against you staying with m if that is what you want to do but I do not share your opinion of him. Love, Robyn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 19:10:02 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: cqg Subject: Those quotes Message:

Chris, Where did you get those quotes? G

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 20:11:59 (GMT) From: cqg Email: None To: G Subject: Those quotes Message:

Ok, it's a wrap. So who cheated? Huh? They're good. They're here

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 20:49:54 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: cqg Subject: I'm starting to wonder ... Message:

Always better to think than to mindlessly follow.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 18:28:03 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Everyone Subject: More secret EV's documents! Message:

Here is a copy of more intersting stuff. Lots of paranoia and strange contracts!!!! +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ MEMORANDUM TO: CITY CONTACTS FROM: LINDA S. GROSS DATE: May 21, 1998 RE : GUIDELINES FOR VIDEO LIBRARIES As you may know, Maharaji has licensed Elan Vital to prepare and distribute videos of his speeches. We have (either orally or in writing) given your unincorporated association a sublicense to screen videos at local video events. Some cities keep videos no longer being screened in a video library. Such cities should only accept contributions toward the use, upkeep and cost of the video library. A «rental fee» should not be charged for the use of the videos. It is appropriate to charge someone the replacement cost if they lose a video and a new one is purchased to replace it. A deposit held against return of the video is also alright. Caution regarding distribution of videos from a video library is essential. Videos are labeled as to whether or not they are introductory, for aspirants or for people with Knowledge. I believe there will be further information regarding the controls necessary to make sure a person obtains appropriate videos from the video library. Videos in the video library cannot be sold. Nor can they be distributed to 'primary contributors' in a community. These videos are owned by Visions and communities are only authorized to « use » the videos. The community does not and can not own them. Technically, these videos must be kept or returned to Visions. If you have any questions regarding the video library, please contact Terry Yingling at Elan Vital.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 18:37:35 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Get the right video! Message:

What kind of impression do you get reading this ? Absolute control of everything that's done in EV. The 'master' has licensed EV to 'screen' HIS videos, under HIS and its control. Talk of a message of the heart .... And you are not just allowed to watch any video ! There is a control system to make sure you get the appropriate one ! Wonder what could happen if you don't get the right one ! You'll be 'confused' I guess !!!! Heeeeeeeeeeelp !!!!!!! I need a video, and the right one !

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 19:44:21 (GMT) From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Get the right video! Message:

I think some of it is control of videos but most of it seems to be control of who ones what and controling the non-profit status and keeping the locals from being 'part' of the church so they don't screw up the non profit status, so they came up with the work wround of this unincorporated associtation and they want to make sure the associations don't mess up and become for profit. Unfortunately it is all pretty standard legal stuff aimed at keeping EV not for profit and legal. The real issue is if EV is a church why don't they want local places where members can 'worship' and have a legal affiliation with the 'mother' church. It is a lot of legal work to have only one church and not allow other 'locations'. but its probally all legal although if you come up with enough of it it my be a pattern that the goverment wouldn't like. Lawyers?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 05:47:28 (GMT) From: I. Dunno Email: None To: Jean Subject: Sell =own Message:

Dear Jean, If the communities don't own the videos why do they have to buy them? Doesn't seem very fair does it? I. Dunno

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 11:59:57 (GMT) From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: I. Dunno Subject: Sell =own Message:

It appears they are just LICENSING the use and the locals are paying for the right to sub-license, thats the key here EV is paying RAWAT for the LICENSE, so it is not property that they are paying for but the right to use. It is a very convoluted transaction that a FOR PROFIT business may undertake to REDUCE taxable LIABILITY but why a CHURCH would need to LICENSE from THIER GOD his speeches etc, is beyond me. IT is also beyond me why a NOT FOR PROFIT CHURCH would not wnat to encourage LOCAL growth. All I was trying to say was it is probally legal but if someone wants the REWARD copy this stuff to the IRS and let them see if it is LEGAL. It definetly isn't in the SPIRIT of the LAW but it is in the SPIRIT of GETING MONEY TO RAWAT, which is why they don't WANT LOCAL CHURCHES AS IT WOULD DILUTE THE REVENUE STREAM TO RAWAT AND GO TO SUPPORTING THE CAUSE. Maybe a recent ex should take their copies of this stuff and go to the local tax authority and say I DON'T GET IT, I JUST WANT TO BE PART OF THE CHURCH AND WORSHIP LOCALLY AND THEY WON'T LET ME. IMAGINE how rich the decendants of Jesus would be if they OWNED the LICENSE for HIS speeches and copies of THEM. Imagine how much money some of these people could have if they worked this hard at a real business with a real product.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 08:30:24 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: I. Dunno Subject: This is all lies Message:

The communities don't 'buy' the videos. Nobody gives money to Rawat. There is nothing hidden in all this. This is all misinformation. Rawat never got anything from EV. Rawat has no slaves. PR on duty.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 18:00:40 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek™ Email: drek@oz.net To: Everyone Subject: Am I slow or what? Message:

No, not that kind of slow. And I know that I shouldn't complain about this here, but I really believe that some group feedback will tell me one way or another whether I'm having a problem or not. Seems that in the past 24 hours the response from the Forum has been very slow. Traceroute to www.ex-premie.org is well within the acceptable range, in fact it is very good. And I'm having no problems with other websites including www.ex-premie.org. Anyone else?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 03:25:05 (GMT) From: Sean Email: seang2@earthlink.net To: Roger eDrek™ Subject: Excruciatingly slow>nt< Message:

nt

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 18:23:14 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Roger eDrek™ Subject: Am I slow or what? Message:

Reading messages has been very slow, the active index seems ok.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 18:28:55 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: G Subject: Am I slow or what? Message:

It's been fine here. But I do have slowdowns when I use Proxomitron sometimes.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 19:55:16 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek™ Email: drek@oz.net To: Selene Subject: Am I slow or what? Message:

My Read Message response is slow with or without Proxomitron.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 19:50:45 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek™ Email: drek@oz.net To: Roger eDrek™ Subject: test - ignore, please Message:

<script>testing

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 20:22:11 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Roger eDrek™ Subject: Slower every day this week NT Message:

nt

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 20:30:50 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Gregg Subject: Slower every day this week not Message:

Well I'm always the contrary one but.. you guys think you got problems! I'm working from home and.. am suddenly on a flight path. Never noticed being on one before OK annoying no big deal. but.. every time one of those things fly by my computer sparks! And so far no damage but!! Maragey why are you sending all those jets over here? I am not even one of the ones who , well. anyway.. hey...! leave me alone!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 18:25:42 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek™ Email: drek@oz.net To: G Subject: Yes, my experience exactly NT Message:

nt

Return to Index -:- Top of Index