Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 23:08:13 (GMT)
From: Feb 21, 2000 To: Mar 05, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


SB -:- He is so good! He gives food and a bottle of ... -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 05:33:25 (GMT)
__ Way -:- He is so good! He gives food and a bottle of ... -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 16:50:11 (GMT)

cqg -:- Sold your soul? Now collect your award here ... -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 21:04:28 (GMT)
__ cqg -:- Or collect your award here ... -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 21:11:33 (GMT)

cqg -:- Slavish devotion ... now called free gratitude? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 20:55:14 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Slavish devotion ... now called free gratitude? -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 15:19:14 (GMT)
__ Ben Lurking -:- Slavish devotion ... now called free gratitude? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 23:38:41 (GMT)

cqg -:- The begging heart in the mirror -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 20:20:58 (GMT)
__ Runamok -:- Mass Co-dependency -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 03:31:25 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Mass Co-dependency -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 04:56:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ JB -:- Mass Co-dependency -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 18:00:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- Hey JB...did you get lost or what? -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 17:55:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JB -:- To Joey -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 17:40:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- To JB -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 18:36:46 (GMT)

Way -:- your photo collection -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 16:10:09 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- your photo collection -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 18:03:15 (GMT)
__ Way -:- the above is for Sir Dave -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 16:18:27 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- Durga -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 19:37:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Happy -:- Nirmala Devi -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 12:07:35 (GMT)

stonor -:- has anyone else noticed? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 14:34:49 (GMT)
__ Deputy Dog -:- has anyone else noticed? -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 15:01:30 (GMT)
__ __ stonor -:- Hello again Deputy Dog -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 10:17:44 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Here's a question for you -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 16:48:04 (GMT)
__ Mili -:- has anyone else noticed? -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 14:09:47 (GMT)
__ __ stonor -:- huh ?? (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 10:20:32 (GMT)

General Insurrection -:- Undo the GooRoo -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 12:44:52 (GMT)
__ Cultbuster UK -:- Undo the GooRoo -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 11:12:09 (GMT)
__ gregg -:- Undo the GooRoo -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 15:27:11 (GMT)

Brian -:- 4 New Journeys -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 12:02:46 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- More... -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 12:53:52 (GMT)
__ __ michael from Oregon -:- More... -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 05:10:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Party in the Prison Carpark. -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 10:36:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ michael from Oregon -:- Party in the Prison Carpark. -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 15:00:53 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- thanks -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 20:21:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Happy -:- My Son the Fanatic -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 12:12:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ bb -:- but -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 05:04:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ michael from Oregon -:- but - what the fuck are you talking about? -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 05:27:05 (GMT)

Fred -:- Is there a nail in my head? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 04:23:03 (GMT)
__ Jackie -:- Is there a nail in my head? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 04:34:48 (GMT)

JHB -:- What is the Experience? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 03:31:43 (GMT)
__ Peter Howie -:- What is the Experience? -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 06:20:12 (GMT)
__ cqg -:- Then why did we jump to that conclusion John?(nt) -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 20:29:22 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Then why did we jump to that conclusion John?(nt) -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 21:11:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ cqg -:- ... that conclusion John -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 21:16:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- LOTU Video - Nigel and Sir Dave please note. -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 21:20:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Sorted!! -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 10:25:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- LOTU Video - Nigel and Sir Dave please note. -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 21:26:29 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- What is the Experience? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 19:51:39 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- What is the Experience? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 16:15:51 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- What is the Experience? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 19:33:05 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Describing the indescribable. -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 11:02:42 (GMT)
__ __ JB -:- Describing the indescribable. -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 18:16:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Describing the indescribable. -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 19:43:37 (GMT)
__ __ Jack -:- Such a thing as knowing -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 17:13:03 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Describing the indescribable. -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 16:22:48 (GMT)
__ michael from Oregon -:- What is the Experience? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 05:29:42 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- What is the Experience? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 12:20:48 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Is God a capitalist? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 06:53:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Is God a capitalist? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 16:52:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Is God a capitalist? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 18:19:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Is God a capitalist? -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 00:56:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 15:41:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 20:06:57 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- Whatever the Experience...m should get out of it! -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 04:49:48 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Whatever the Experience...m should get out of it! -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 12:15:58 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- I agree. -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 04:26:36 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- agreement -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 08:23:03 (GMT)

Sir David -:- How religions and cults work -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 19:59:05 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- How religions and cults work -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 09:48:23 (GMT)
__ mir -:- How Dave works -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 00:53:38 (GMT)
__ __ Mike -:- So tell me, mir -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 22:51:24 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- Mirror, mirror on the wall... -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 03:10:33 (GMT)
__ __ Sir David -:- How a madman works -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 02:16:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Charlie -:- How a madman works -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 14:30:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Hal -:- anonymity -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 08:28:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey. -:- anonymity -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 13:38:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- anonymity -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 13:45:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mirror -:- If it were only as simple as black and white... -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 18:19:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- I love you too, Mirror! -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 15:04:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- An apology to Joey -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 15:24:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- An apology to Hal -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 15:55:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- If it were only as simple as black and white... -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 23:20:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- knock it off Hal! -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 13:56:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- That's fine by me Joey -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 20:54:17 (GMT)
__ Sean -:- How religions and cults work -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 20:33:21 (GMT)

Video Vixen -:- LOTU Video For Sale on eBay -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 18:44:08 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- thanks I bid on it! (nt) -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 21:26:18 (GMT)
__ __ Ms. K -:- thanks I bid on it! (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 11:39:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- eeck I am in a bidding war (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 15:57:40 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- thanks I bid on it! (nt) -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 23:15:35 (GMT)

Recent Exes -:- Recent Exes Forum -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 08:12:54 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- What policy did you come up with re gossip? -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 21:03:12 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- I think gossip should be said on AG! -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 21:09:15 (GMT)

El Magnifico! -:- For $5 you can worship me! -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 03:55:43 (GMT)
__ Mu -:- No thing -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 17:01:25 (GMT)
__ ME -:- For $4 you can worship ME! -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 15:23:17 (GMT)
__ __ Ozob -:- Forget these charlatans -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 18:00:26 (GMT)
__ __ I -:- Limited time offer -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 15:57:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ ME2 -:- Get yer worship for 2.50 while it's hot! -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 22:02:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ El Magnifico! -:- Unlimited magnificence offer -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 16:45:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Looking before leaping -:- Unlimited magnificence offer -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 18:41:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ El Magnifico! -:- Magnificence Worship - explained - again! -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 20:57:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ I -:- Money back guarantee! -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 22:05:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ El Magnifico! -:- Don't blow it for the rest of us - fool! -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 22:44:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ I -:- Relax -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 02:48:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ El Magnifico! -:- Relax - so true -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 04:12:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ just one devotee -:- Don't blow it for the rest of us - fool! -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 23:25:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Very funny thread. Tks. hahahaha nt -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 16:08:55 (GMT)

Mu -:- Just for fun! -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 19:57:26 (GMT)
__ G -:- More links to Buddhist jokes -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 22:41:49 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- More links to Buddhist jokes -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:16:06 (GMT)
__ __ Mu -:- Thank you! HAHAHAHAH and HOHOHOHO! (nt) -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:07:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- A mind is a terrible thing to watch! -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 02:33:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ stonor -:- Is that why you've turned yours off? (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 10:38:48 (GMT)

Jim -:- Does anyone here exercise? (ot) -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 19:36:46 (GMT)
__ Curious -:- What about Tae Bo? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 17:18:40 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- What about Tae Bo? -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 14:12:33 (GMT)
__ Sean -:- Does anyone here exercise? (ot) -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 22:09:22 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- has anyone tried a treadmill? -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 22:01:43 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- has anyone tried a treadmill? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 09:34:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- has anyone tried a treadmill? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 16:21:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cqg -:- has anyone tried a treadmill? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 21:19:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ selene -:- humping pianos??? -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 22:57:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- humping pianos??? -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 20:48:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ selene -:- that's a good sign I lost you -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 21:20:04 (GMT)
__ dv -:- Does anyone here exercise? (ot) -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 14:54:40 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Does anyone here exercise? (ot) -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 18:55:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ dv -:- Does anyone here exercise? (ot) -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 03:38:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Does anyone here exercise? (ot) -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 09:26:37 (GMT)
__ JW -:- Get A Personal Trainer -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 01:45:08 (GMT)
__ __ Monmot -:- Get A Personal Trainer -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 03:12:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ JW -:- Finding a Personal Trainer -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 22:12:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Finding a Personal Trainer -:- Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 01:03:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Thanks For The Info (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 23:56:53 (GMT)
__ G -:- Does anyone here exercise? (ot) -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:50:52 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Does anyone here exercise? (ot) -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 00:54:52 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Does anyone here exercise? (ot) -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:10:48 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Does anyone here exercise? (ot) -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 04:37:02 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- House Music and Neuroscience -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 21:46:47 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Reduction of excess flab -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 08:06:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Reduction of excess flab -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 14:38:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- and sharpening of the mind -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 18:26:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Reduction of excess flab -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 15:59:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ DJ cat tranquilizer -:- raving mad -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 18:28:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- raving mad -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 19:42:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- raving mad -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 19:10:34 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- House Music and Neuroscience -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:06:09 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Does anyone here exercise? (ot) -:- Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 20:36:42 (GMT)
__ __ Bill Phillips -:- Move it you lumpy lawyer -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 01:10:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Move it you lumpy lawyer -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 01:36:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ham -:- HHmmmmm -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 10:02:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- HHmmmmm -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 19:05:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- HHmmmmmmmmmm -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 20:37:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- HHmmmmmmmmmm -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 15:39:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Move it you lumpy lawyer -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 03:11:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- no fun! -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 04:20:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Eva Gabor -:- Lady Selene -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 18:15:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Lady Selene -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 19:02:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ EG -:- Lady Selene -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 05:43:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ selene -:- Lady Selene -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 15:52:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ and ps EG -:- Lady Selene -:- Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 16:35:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Move it you lumpy lawyer -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 03:29:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Move it you lumpy lawyer -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 07:22:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Move it you lumpy lawyer -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 14:33:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- No, it's legit Scott -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 18:30:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jane Fonda -:- Feel the burn on the esophagus -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 04:45:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zha Zha Gabor -:- Lumps or Lines Dearie! -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 18:08:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Richard Simmons -:- Dance your pants off! -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 03:21:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Dance your pants off! -:- Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 05:50:47 (GMT)


Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 05:33:25 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: He is so good! He gives food and a bottle of ...
Message:
Namaskar (Greetings) from India
From maharagi.org. India

I just concluded the largest single Knowledge session thus far. It consisted of 5,022 participants who received the techniques of Knowledge in a large tent-like structure specifically erected for this purpose. The session started at 05:57 AM. It may seem surprising to start an event so early, but one has to beat the Indian heat. Everyone seemed to enjoy the Knowledge session. Breakfast and snacks were provided for each participant along with their own individual bottle of purified water.

At first, the hustle and bustle were quite evident as the sounds of people moving about and talking broke the silence of early dawn—a silence which is usually broken by the peacocks laying claim to their territories followed by the calls of various other birds.

These people!! They broke the silence!! SHHHHH

Who writes this stuff? It must be him: Sounds stupid enough.

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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 16:50:11 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: He is so good! He gives food and a bottle of ...
Message:
SB,

I'm quite sure that this was written by the Master himself. (In this instance I should probably refer to him as 'the Writer'). I'm also sure that some of his closest associates are aware of his English grammar mistake here and would like to correct it, but dare not. (should be 'the hustle and bustle was...' instead of 'were...' Rawat never looks more ridiculous than when he is bad-mouthing education while making his basic grammar errors.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 21:04:28 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Sold your soul? Now collect your award here ...
Message:
Sold your soul lately? Now collect your award here ...(link)
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 21:11:33 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Or collect your award here ...
Message:
Or collect your award here ...

...there's deals and there's deals (link)

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 20:55:14 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Slavish devotion ... now called free gratitude?
Message:
Does this definition ring any bells for you?

'Slavery is a societal institution based on ownership, dominance, and exploitation of one human being by another. The owner may exact work or other services without pay and virtually without restriction and can deny the slave freedom of activity and mobility. Generally the owner is responsible only for providing minimal food, shelter and clothing. The owner may separate members of a family and may permit or deny marriages ...'

(from the Grolier Encyclopaedia)

To me it sounds kind of like ashram life.

...Though, more seriously, it is estimated that over 200 million people in the third world suffer such conditions - and worse.

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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 15:19:14 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: cqg
Subject: Slavish devotion ... now called free gratitude?
Message:
Someone recently found out that I was disillusioned with Maha and told me about this wonderful new guru they had found.

Apparently he gives darshan in an unusual way. The devotees place their head in his lap for a couple of minutes or so as they file past.

I wonder if anyone could give me any guidance as to the authenticity of this spiritual teacher?

I think he calls himself Swami Dikinand. So far he only has 2 devotees, who are Scots. Ben Doon and Phil McCavity.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 23:38:41 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: cqg
Subject: Slavish devotion ... now called free gratitude?
Message:
Well M is from a 3rd world country, that would explain his bad habits
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 20:20:58 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The begging heart in the mirror
Message:
She/he who has been posting lately under the pseudonym 'Mirror' recently contributed this:

'The begging heart will always find its way home. It was Maharaji who showed me this secret. It was he who taught me to beg.'


Thanks for sharing that, Mirror -

So you get off on begging, and the Maha gets off on seeing you beg - all the time relieving you of the contents of your wallet.

Someone should invent a name for that.

Sado - rip-offo - - maso -co - push-me-pull-you- ism...???

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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 03:31:25 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: cqg
Subject: Mass Co-dependency
Message:
It is weird, finding someone to abuse you that in all likelihood you'll never know.

I think the missing word is megalomania but self-aggrandizement comes to mind as well.

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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 04:56:49 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Runamok and cqg
Subject: Mass Co-dependency
Message:
Hi,

Mirror: maharaji taugh me to beg...

Because he taught people to beg doesn't mean that it is necesary to beg! He puts premies on the begging state to keep them needing him. Yeah, it's co-dependency both ways. He needs $ mula $, premies need his grace because without it they are nothing. 'Where am I going to go if I leave your lotus feet?' Yack! The techniques without his grace are nothing, as the guru said always and says also today. What a manipulator he is!

The sub-conscient part of the mind of premies has engraved in it
-until deprogramming occurs-the Lordy/Devotion messages.

Funny to see now how easy it's to brake free! It has been for me much easier than what I thought at first, when I made the decission of leaving the cult. Of course: I accepted the help offered here. :)

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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 18:00:18 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: To Mirror
Subject: Mass Co-dependency
Message:
Mirror,

Did or do you find Maharaji asks for or needs your money?
And do you feel you need or needed to give any money in order to have an experience of any kind?

JB

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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 17:55:45 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: Hey JB...did you get lost or what?
Message:
JB,

First of all you addressed your post to Mirror when Mirror isn't even posting in this thread. If you really want to talk to the guy, I think you'd be more effective in addressing your posts to him in a thread where he's participating. Just a friendly suggestion:)

BTW, SB was right in her assertion that m's is a personality cult dedicated to 'money'...and its ALL for m.

As far as m asking for money himself, he really doesn't have to do that. He has his 'high priests of participation' (Raja Ji,Yoram Weiss, Charanand, Sampuranand, and here in Canada, Georges Legere, etc...) do it for him.

And of course premies feel the need to contribute financially. The 'high priests' make it abundantly clear...that's what 'participation' is all about.
Or at least the most essential part of it.

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 17:40:20 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: To Joey
Message:
Joey,

Yes got caught up in the org post of cqg's when he referred to Mirror.

I still stand by when I heard M say in Philly ' I don't know why alot of you are here. Alot of you think I just want your money...well, I'll tell you what ... don't give me any.' Something like that. I don't and didn't. Never felt a compulsion to if someone came thru town talking about some new project of M's. So see money and M wanting it just never affected me. I've never been a seriously co-dependent person. Even in the ashram I was used as an example ( by instructors passing thru) of a strong independent person. And it was said in a positive way. There were such jerks in my ashram that instructors actually used me as an example to be like.
Not bragging - but meditation always was wonderful for me and premies usually jerks. Never listened to the house fathers or cared about other demands. I kept alot of the money I earned and
went to movies and plays and had fun with the community premies.My mom didn't raise a fool.
Thanks Joey for responding it makes it fun.

JB

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 18:36:46 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: To JB
Message:
Even in the ashram I was used as an example ( by instructors passing thru) of a strong independent person.

There's an exception to every rule JB, and you may just be it as far as the cult is concerned.
But the way I've seen it, the truly 'strong independant' people really didn't fare too well in the cult, and most had to leave.
Cults and 'strong independant' people, IMO, really don't mix.
Just my take.

All the best,

Joey

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 16:10:09 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: your photo collection
Message:
Sir Dave,

You should be able to find a bunch about Mataji searching for 'Shri Mataji' or 'Sahaja Yoga.' Her full name is 'Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi.' See especially 'Sahaja Yoga - facts and warnings from ex-members.' I don't know how to provide a link from this message. Here is one URL:
http://members.tripod.de/Sahaja_Yoga_Facts/

Another site of interest in general with lots of living masters is
http://www.inthelight.co.nz/index/htm
This guy seems to believe in them all. He provides some of their 'darshan techniques,' for instance Mother Meera's technique of giving darshan is very personal, you 'look directly into her eyes for about a minute.'

I do hope you keep up your photo collection. I will let you know about some good specific pictures on the web, when I find them, if you like.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 18:03:15 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Way
Subject: your photo collection
Message:
Thaks way. I had a look at the site you've mentioned and yes, Mataji is a bona fide incarnation of god and I'll include her on my Incarnations of God pages soon.

I'm always happy to receive more info and pictures of the Lords and Lordesses, whenever you find them.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 16:18:27 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: the above is for Sir Dave
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 19:37:13 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Durga
Message:
One thing that must be acknowledged in favor of this particular Mataji is that she makes a better incarnation of the nine-armed Durga than the former Marolyn Johnson ever did.

A few years back this Shri Mataji was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize by her followers. She directed all her devotees to pray intensely for her to win the prize. Unforunately the devotees came up lacking in their devotion which caused the prize to go to somebody working for East Timor. Bad, bad devotees. Perhaps we should suggest over on Enjoyinglife that Rawat be nominated this year since he has brought peace to the entire world (at least to those who are hooked up to his satellite channel).

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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 12:07:35 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Nirmala Devi
Message:
As far as I know, Nirmala Devi was previously a devotee of Rajneesh/Osho.
Once, while still a Rajneesh disciple, she and R. visited Muktananda in India (before he made it big in the West).
On their return, she is supposed to have said: 'Well, if he can be a guru, I can too!'
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 14:34:49 (GMT)
From: stonor
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: has anyone else noticed?
Message:
The anonymous attacks in general, and on Hal in particular, seem to have increased since my interaction with Deputy Dog. (Note the familiar alliteration of 'The Masked Marsupial,' 'Feral Feline,' etc.) Meanwhile, I think that that the number of postings by 'premies' is down. Is there some relation? Is this a 'tactic' of premies to send their needles of paranoia into this forum to undermine the framework of decency, openness and trust that is being built here? Perhaps this is a regular occurance?

Stonor

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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 15:01:30 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: stonor
Subject: has anyone else noticed?
Message:
Stonor,

In a post entitled 'A Moral Question for Deputy Dog' you asked me the following stupid question which I honestly didn't think you wanted an answer to . . .

How do you (or anyone else) feel about possible spiritual misrepresentation and friendships used to deceive and manipulate the vulnerable for selfish personal desires.

Well, just for the record I am in favour of honesty. If you are interested in Knowledge check it out. If you decide it's not for you, either turn the TV back on or look somewhere else. There are lots of other things out there.

Here is a question for you stonor. How do you feel about all out nuclear war? Are you in favour of it or not? Kind of a stupid question wasn't it?

-- Dep

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 10:17:44 (GMT)
From: stonor
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Hello again Deputy Dog
Message:
Glad to see that you're still alive and kicking Deputy Dog! And thank you for answering my question, although I find your analogy a little weak.

Whose honesty are you in favour of: honesty with yourself, others you interact with, and how about the honesty of your guru (which through well documented inconsistency alone seems more than highly suspect)? And how can you believe in your guru's honesty when he won't even allow honest/open/free discussions between his own devotees (although there 'seems' to be some kind of change happening, it's hard to know - I'm sure I read somewhere else recently that he wanted all 'premie chat' shut down - more contradictions?)? Kinda makes you go hmmmmmmm (at least that's the way my heart alone is reacting, never mind my head).

Are you honest to others (especially potential new premies) about your guru's 'history?' Are you honest to yourself and others about your 'faith.' Can you honestly tell anyone with questions that he/she should review both premie (not that there's much info there) and ex-premie sites, and draw their own conclusions? Can you engage in honest discussions about your 'faith?' Can you answer honest questions at all, let alone honestly?

But perhaps it wasn't a fair question to ask a premie. As I've been learning through this site and others, they hardly have an ideal role model, and have been so indoctrinated with double-speak and tabooed topics that one could generally forgive their lapses.

Isn't this a free world, as you said, Deputy Dog? Why let yourself be chained to such an iron fist?

I sincerely wish you all the best, wherever your path takes you.

Stonor

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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 16:48:04 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Here's a question for you
Message:
If you are interested in Knowledge check it out. If you decide it's not for you, either turn the TV back on or look somewhere else.

At what point should a person determine that Knowledge is or isn't for them? After the first video? After 3 months into the aspirant program? 6 months into it? After Maharaji refuses them because they're 'not ready yet'? After they've received Knowledge? How's about if they were taught Knowledge by someone other than Maharaji, like through the convenience of this very website? Do you think then they'll be able to determine if Knowledge is for them or not, or is that a no-no? I mean, just what is legit, here, and when does a person 'know'? And just what is Knowledge, anyway? Does that mean being a devotee of Maharaji? Just practicing the meditation? Jeez, this gets confusing.

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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 14:09:47 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: stonor
Subject: has anyone else noticed?
Message:
Don't flatter yourself, 'Stonor'.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 10:20:32 (GMT)
From: stonor
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: huh ?? (nt)
Message:
h
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 12:44:52 (GMT)
From: General Insurrection
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Undo the GooRoo
Message:
When and how should the empire be dismantled? Should we become actively involved in dismantling it, other than our participation on the site? What would the ultimate objective of our efforts be? Are some of us owed refunds for money fraudulently obtained by the GooRoo and his emissaries? Why or why not?

What are the main justifications for such action?

Your old friend,
General Insurrection

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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 11:12:09 (GMT)
From: Cultbuster UK
Email: None
To: General Insurrection
Subject: Undo the GooRoo
Message:
The Empire is crumbling.

The police and other legal agencies in at least four countries are investigating Elan Vital.

Its charitable status in at least two countries is under investigation.

As more information about the cults illegal activities come to light, this pressure will increase.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 15:27:11 (GMT)
From: gregg
Email: None
To: General Insurrection
Subject: Undo the GooRoo
Message:
Go ahead and try, insurrectionists, but there's not really much anyone can do. People will go on following GMJ and others who are even more abusive and hypocritical.

This site fills an important role...aspirants (or whatever they're called these days) and premies (oops...PWK's) have a right to know that their clay-footed Emperor God is naked.

It's interesting, though, that even though details about the inner secrets of cults and religions are now easily available (try the keywords 'mormon underwear' and in thirty seconds you can find out what has been kept from non-Mormons for a hundred years) groups like the Mormons are gathering more and more followers.

Of course, DLM/EV itself is losing ground in the convert wars,
but I'm not sure we exes have much to do with that. I could be wrong, but many of us here seem to think the dumbing down of the message and the de-devotionalizing of the guru role has made the cult a lot less exciting.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 12:02:46 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: 4 New Journeys
Message:
I uploaded 4 Journeys entries today. They'd been piling up...
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 12:53:52 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Brian, Fran, Trent, etc
Subject: More...
Message:
Thanks Brian, and thanks Fran, Trent, Kieth and Michael.

Fran, did you go on that teachers course for a week at Houston, after the programme? We may have met.

Michael, a great read, but it feels like there's room for a 'Journey 2' (just when you thought it was safe to go back to the cult) where you tell us why you became disulluioned with it all.

Trent, I wanted more- all the stories and things that happened to you and everything.

Kieth, yours was like an encrypted message from outerspace, checking if we were still alive. Yes we are. All you did was make me hungry for a couple of pages of what happened to you and how you feel and felt about it all. Come on, spill the beans. Loads of people read the journeys.

So, thanks a lot everybody. I'd like to see you all, with your revisions, at my desk, at fouroclock tomorrow afternoon. (Kieth, don't chew gum while I'm talking to you. And all of you stand up straight.)

Mr Ginn (English Teacher)

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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 05:10:54 (GMT)
From: michael from Oregon
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: More...
Message:
Michael, a great read, but it feels like there's room for a 'Journey 2' (just when you thought it was safe to go back to the cult) where you tell us why you became disulluioned with it all.

When I first heard satsang and later saw m I was totally convinced that HE WAS HERE! I had never bought into the christian rapture crapture. And of course since m did come to the west on an airplane, didn't that satisfy the requirement that he would come on the clouds in great glory? ;-)

I have to admit in the early days of my premiedom I did have some inner struggles resolving my christian background with the guru is god and greater than god line that m spouted off about. I know that a lot of premies had similar inner turmoils about the faith of their childhood and worship of fatsoji. I basically just suppressed my jesus VS maharji conflicts. I have noticed from reading journeys that some premies are now christian devotees.

There seems to be a need in many people to worship something or one as being greater than themselves. Perhaps this is just a natural tendency that we all have as we behold the vastness of creation and are filled with wonder! :-)

So, why did I become 'disulluioned' Mr. Ginn? I'll let the 'reel me' answer:

Weel thar MR Ginn, I just kinda drefted aweigh from whorshepe. Wen yuar tow busy wif yuar own life and kiddys yuar tow bussy to wary abowt sum garu! So yu haf to stand up and be a reel man and tack car of yuar' owyn busenus! So I did! Thank yu!

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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 10:36:28 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: michael from Oregon
Subject: Party in the Prison Carpark.
Message:
Well done michael,

The party in the carpark outside the prison is warming up, as more inmates discover the gates are open and the guards are all meditating on snot.

I'm steering clear of religions for the rest of this lifetime. I've already got three books full of stamps to show St Peter.

Anth the Lost, Found, then Lost Again.

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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 15:00:53 (GMT)
From: michael from Oregon
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Party in the Prison Carpark.
Message:
Since I assume this is a byob party, I'll be bringing a bottle of Chartruese. If you have never had it before, you'll find it an indescribably intrigueing taste treat. If you have had it before - you have been exposed to someone with a sophisticated palate. ;-)

Recommended reading: Waiting for the Galactic Bus and The Snake Oil Wars both by Parke Godwin. The premise is that two intergalactic transdimensional beings who are undergrads on a party trip across the universe get stranded on earth. They tinker with the apes and hooha! create people. The aliens, even though they do not want it, come to be identified as god and the devil. It's actually funny. Anyway - one line, about how to leave hell, from the second book goes something like this - 'the exits are clearly marked. They can leave anytime they want to but they just seem to think they need to be punished.' It seems that the people in hell created hell. Ain't that the way it goes?

In the words of that old protestant hymn:
Give me that no-brain religion
That no-brain religion it's good enough for me!

As if! ;-)

Peace on us all!

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 20:21:15 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: journey authors
Subject: thanks
Message:
Thanks to all. I agree that more would be appreciated.

What were we thinking?! At the age of 19 or so, a certain phase happens, characterized by idealistic, spiritual, magical, naive, wishful thinking. Gurus always find their new devotees in this age group.

This last weekend I saw a bunch of fresh-faced Hari Krishna monks, all about 19 years old, dancing to a tune that must translate to 'Ignorance is Bliss, or at least we're trying.'

And yesterday, I checked out a recent movie called 'My Son the Fanatic.' I think exes would really enjoy the lessons of this movie (since we've learned them the hard way).

I also saw 'American Beauty' last weekend - about the beauty both of the world and behind the world. Some people will tell you that there is no beauty behind the world, and some will tell you that there is and 'I will show it to you.' Don't believe either one. Seek, but seek in the right place. I often end my day with a poem by Emily Dickinson. She gained all the intimations of immortality that she needed to sustain her by gazing at the pine tree outside her bedroom window. It's certainly not farther away that that.

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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 12:12:37 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: My Son the Fanatic
Message:
I just saw 'My Son the Fanatic' recently -
a great movie.
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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 05:04:30 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: but
Message:
Luckily, there are ex premies that are not in the states of
these 4 journeys. Not bad for them of course, but
what is needed and luckily is here, are people that really
understand the trip and can do the work of this forum
and websites.
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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 05:27:05 (GMT)
From: michael from Oregon
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: but - what the fuck are you talking about?
Message:
Enlighten me if you will.
What is the truth?

What do you mean by understand the trip?

What is the 'work of this forum and websites'?

Does your personal recovery from being in an abusive cult depend on somebody else's recovery?

Do you imagine that your answer - whatever it is - will fit for every other person?

What is your answer to any of this?

If you have 'the answer', will you share it? Or will you seek refuge in criticising and condeming?

Open up a little won't you?

The universe is a big big place. Enjoy your little piece of it :-) I have learned to enjoy mine. ;-)

Peace - and Love on ya, bb.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 04:23:03 (GMT)
From: Fred
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Is there a nail in my head?
Message:
Because maybe I'm missing the blantantly obvious...but I was wondering...I've noticed posts from a 'Jack/Jackie'. Many of these posts ask for more information about someone...is this friendliness??
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 04:34:48 (GMT)
From: Jackie
Email: None
To: Fred
Subject: Is there a nail in my head?
Message:
Dear Fred,

Apart from the fact that you stole my name I would still like to be your friend! Yes it's friendliness and I'm happily married thankyou.

Love,

Jackie

Now I'm not sure whether to call myself Jack or Jackie

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 03:31:43 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What is the Experience?
Message:
I was thinking today about the 'experience of knowledge'. I had two experiences in my 25 years that convinced me that this was the real thing - a direct experience of the divine. But why do I associate the word divine with these experiences? If I lived among atheists, and had never been exposed to the idea of God, would I give the experience that same interpretation? There is no question that the sound I heard one time was astoundingly beautiful. There is no question that the experience that reminded me of 'the sound of one hand clapping' felt for a fleeting moment like all my desires were fulfilled.

But to jump from those feelings to saying that these were experience of God seems a little presumptious and arrogant to say the least.

John.

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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 06:20:12 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: What is the Experience?
Message:
I think the point you make is a good one.

And to continue on in this vein - What if I imagine that those others who speak of God, and talk of 'experiencing God', etc - what if those people, those pople from the past, those 'enlightened ones' those 'great teachers' those 'living saints' actually had the same experience as you (and I perhaps) - then we see a whole panoply of beliefs, structures, religions, heirarchies based on what are really fairly simple experiences overladen with ideas, projections, wishes and world views.

I wonder whether anyone has experienced so much more than I have. (This is a somewhat arrogant stand. But that is not a good reason to not consider it.) This is a somewhat tiring thought when I want to rest in the belief of a 'superior power' which isn't so often these days.

Anyway - good post and good train of thought. I had an experience on acid before I came to MJ and this kept me going longer than anything that happened after knowledge in the first few years. Well that and the social/community connections as well.

Cheers

Peter

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 20:29:22 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Then why did we jump to that conclusion John?(nt)
Message:
Then why did we jump to that conclusion John?(nt)
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 21:11:49 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: cqg
Subject: Then why did we jump to that conclusion John?(nt)
Message:
Because a lot of us were immersed in pseudo-spiritual crap even before we fell for the 'I will show you God face to face' con. In the circumstances I didn't really have much of a chance.

John.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 21:16:34 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: ... that conclusion John
Message:
That 'pseudo-spiritual crap', John, how'd it get into us?

Bear in mind that I'm right now supposed to be replying to (Panama) Padre Michael about Augustine.

(skiver that I am
- at least til the hangover's gone)

P.S. LOTU vid?

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 21:20:35 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: cqg
Subject: LOTU Video - Nigel and Sir Dave please note.
Message:
Sorry Chris,

I'm still waiting for the copies to be returned.

Nigel, What's happening?

Sir Dave, Do you have a copy??

John.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 10:25:46 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Sorted!!
Message:
(well, posted at least...)

Sorry for the delay.

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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 21:26:29 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: quartus@postmaster.co.uk
To: JHB
Subject: LOTU Video - Nigel and Sir Dave please note.
Message:
email me direct for my address, if it saves on the postage, folks.
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 19:51:39 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: What is the Experience?
Message:
JHB,

The experience is foremost, PERSONAL. Experiences outside of normal waking consciousness aren't always consistent. Different people experience different things. I've heard more experiences that people have had of God that were UNLIKE mine than I've heard of experiences that were LIKE them. So, a guy's got to ask himself - How come? If God is One, how come everybody's not describing him the same way I do, or visa versa?

You say to call your experience one of God is arrogant and presumptuous. I'll agree with presumptuous, but I think arrogant is too strong a word. I think why we are presumptuous about these odd shifts in consciousness is because there's just so much still unknown about ourselves and the universe we live in. So these experiences remain shrouded in awe and mystery. It's that awe and mystery that gives Maharaji his power. He comes across, with charisma, as having solved the mystery. But anybody familiar with and appreciative of critical thinking skills knows that he's either deluded or full of shit.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 16:15:51 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: What is the Experience?
Message:
JHB:

Re: If I lived among atheists, and had never been exposed to the idea of God, would I give the experience that same interpretation?

I suspect you'd give it an atheist interpretation. If a guy has an inscrutable and profound experience, and somehow connects that experience to the availability of fresh meat, that's God. Otherwise, it's whatever you want to call it.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 19:33:05 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: What is the Experience?
Message:
Hi Scott,

I met this Indian mathematician a couple of years ago who was brought up in an Indian ashram(not related t M).
Anyway this guy told me that he has always been athiest eeven though he has has always meditated and loves it. He puts it all down to the wonders of the human brain, No mystification whatsoever.

Regards Jethro

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 11:02:42 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Describing the indescribable.
Message:
Hi John,

I had a few interesting conversations with some premies about this a couple of days ago. They all say, 'Knowledge is an experience that can't be described, and you have to experience it to understand.'

However, when you think about it, everything is an experience that can't be described- the orgasm, eating a cheese and pickle sandwich, doing both at the same time etc.

So, if you scrape away the superfluous guff, you're left with the cult description of the experiences. This used to be called 'Divine Light', 'Divine Harmonies' 'Holy Name' and 'Nectar', and a big important part of cult programming, is to make followers believe that these experiences are of the deepest, most inner life force, true self, etc.

Scrape away those beliefs and you're left with patterns on your retina (everyone sees them when they press their eyeballs), the sound of falling wax, following your breath, and my personal favorite, the taste of snot.

Anth the Down the Earth

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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 18:16:27 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Describing the indescribable.
Message:
Anth,

My goodness,is that all you experience. No wonder I read cynicism in your posts.

Regardless of the 'Light tech' that M shows - there is so much more than patterns or light behind your eyelids. If you still meditate at all - don't press your eyeballs and instead of focusing 'on the backs of the eyelids' as so many do - concentrate more on where your pineal gland is - or like up under your skull in the middle area - if you concentrate and some chemicals start to get stirred up -aka Grace from on high or whatever - that's the LSD trip or the Light of Ten Thousands Suns - That's the thing you want. Not some pretty mandala images swirling around. Not that that isn't peaceful and neat.

Whew! That's what will blow your socks off, honey.

Don't have time to comment on the other comments about wax and all. Maybe later if I don't get too many cynical responses from this post.
Good luck, :)

JB

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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 19:43:37 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: Describing the indescribable.
Message:
JB,

I've often had a go at Anth for his descriptions of the experiences from meditating. I suspect it's all tongue in cheek to wind up the premies, but then again, maybe he really never experienced anything cosmic except from chemicals or Latvian beer;-)

John.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 17:13:03 (GMT)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Such a thing as knowing
Message:
Dear Anthony,

There is such a thing as agreement and knowingness. If a person has tasted pickle & cheese then he knows what another person is talking about. Likewise with the snot and orgasm.

When we talk about 'nolidge' its a very wide and vague unknowingness. It could be anything. Judging from recent journeys one premies pork is another persons bacon. Or something like that. More like one premies chalk is another premies cheese. And mirage loves it because that way he can have his merdedes & yacht and his daughter (who by the way has a terrific voice - the one talented member of the 'holy family')
can keep her fleet of horses.

I thimk I need your English lessons, O master,

Love,

Jack

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 16:22:48 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Describing the indescribable.
Message:
Anth:

Re: Scrape away those beliefs and you're left with patterns on your retina (everyone sees them when they press their eyeballs), the sound of falling wax, following your breath, and my personal favorite, the taste of snot.

Could you describe that a little more clearly? Not sure what you mean...

--Scott 'How is the taste of snot any more describable than the taste of pickles?' T.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 05:29:42 (GMT)
From: michael from Oregon
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: What is the Experience?
Message:
Two experiences in twenty five years? How did m manage to keep people hooked for so long?

I am not criticizing you. It's just that I had tons of incredible meditations and experiences and left after a few years. I guess it just goes to show that we are all different and are motivated differently!

If I have offended you with the above or in any way made you feel bad, I apologise.

Now the word divinity. This is another one of those highly emotionly charged words. God is divine and we are sinners. The angels are divine and pure and we are corrupt. Saints are divine working people are not. Any experience before m was not divine and doing service was .... well you know all that!

Now let's have a little fun by mixing together logic, christian scripture, and common sense. From the christian bible we find the phrase god is omnipotent, god is omniscient and (this is the good one) god is omnipresent. If we are agnostics or athiests we have to allow ourselve to indulge in suspension of disbelief and accept (pretend) that these three aspects of god are true and real.

OK? Now let's just drop off the first two. We don't need them for this. We'll look at the last one, omnipresence, and apply the logic here. If this is true, that god is everywhere, then everything is god! You, me, the rocks, the trees, the slime mold, vomit, birds, shit, fish, the devil and so on and so on and so on. Now, if god is also divine, and if god is everywhere and everything, then ergo facto sum - you are divine - i am divine - Andy Devine is divine :-)

The common sense part is - what works? Well worshipping some fat little bastard may work for some people - but....not if you wake up. Punching someone may be divine - after all god is everywhere and in everything - but you'll just get punched back!

Sorry for all of the sophomoric simple minded condescending stuff but so am I! ;-) Simple minded that is!

Now, my first experiences with so called spiritual phenomenon were mind-blowing to say the least. They aren't so bogling today.
They are still beautiful! And they keep growing and changing as my awareness grows. But - SO WHAT!?!? Who Cares!?!?

The sunset is divine, ever changing, and often quite stunning! The curve of a beautiful woman's neck! ;-) The cry of a child! The grace of basketball when it's at its best! It all turns me on!

Well, I'm just a crazy bhodisattva who calls himself a saint.

Please ignore all of the above and think for yourself(s). Have your own experience(s) and choose what you want to be divine. We all do anyway!

Peace - St. Michael the demented, dazed and delighted! ;-)

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 12:20:48 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: michael from Oregon
Subject: What is the Experience?
Message:
Two experiences in twenty five years? How did m manage to keep people hooked for so long?

I am not criticizing you. It's just that I had tons of incredible meditations and experiences and left after a few years. I guess it just goes to show that we are all different and are motivated differently!

If I have offended you with the above or in any way made you feel bad, I apologise.

No you haven't offended me:-) I had many other good experiences in my 25 years, but these two were ones that convinced me that K was more than just a relaxing meditation method. No, I stayed because early on I had bought the Perfect Master of our time crap, and my lack of progress was simply due to my lack of effort and sincerity.

John.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 06:53:34 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: michael from Oregon
Subject: Is God a capitalist?
Message:
Interesting that I really felt a presence of some sort of 'higher power' when I started my own business in 1986. This mysterious power appeared to be there over succeeding years and I've been in business ever since although things have been a bit desperate at times.

Is God a capitalist? I think He is. The path of commerce is very much like an evolving organism with ever closer communication between people and definite cause and effect mechanisms. Business is not just for oneself. It is an organism which grows and benefits many people; far more than any ethereral philosophy.

I am beginning to realise that what is real and what is divine is not set in stone. For example, many people have had near death experiences and yet they are all very different. South American Amazonian Indians have spoken of going to a 'heaven' where they work in factories and make cars, 'just like the Americans do'. In their heaven, they get the things which they thought of as divine in their jungle existence. They still chew betel and smoke pipes and they experience a NDE which is based upon their own culture.

This is nothing like the Christian's NDEs who often see Jesus and angels etc. or atheists who just see some nice scenery with some cool dudes. What I am saying here is that what is divine to us is totally subjective. This even colours our perception of God or no God. If you want a God, He's there. If you don't want one, He's not. I don't think anything is fixed because much of how we perceive things is based upon our culture.

I've heard the music inside me really loud and magnificent, just twice as well. Once when I lived in Stoke in 1974 and then again years later when I was mistakenly given an antidepressent tablet for my CFS.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 16:52:08 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Is God a capitalist?
Message:
Sir Dave:

People have been thinking about Capitalism as a replacement for religion for some time, and the general consensus is that there are too many cultural contradictions within capitalism to allow it to survive on it's own. What would happen to capitalism if interpersonal love and loyalty, as well as patriotism, were reduced to contractual arrangements? It's an eminently pracitcal question, because that's what appears to be happening. (David Gautier writes a lot on this.)

Freiderich Von Hayek attempted to make capitalism stand on its own. In the end he was reduced to madness, attempting to promote the notion that the ultimate justification and objective of the 'market nexus' was population growth. His students and followers were too embarassed to allow his final book to be published in his own words, and it was almost completely re-written by James Buchanan.

Applying some market principles to religion is interesting though. Where you have the healthiest competition it seems that you also have the highest level of religious belief or conviction, although most atheists or agnostics would predict the opposite.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 18:19:44 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Is God a capitalist?
Message:
Yeah, Maragaret Thatcher tried to make capitalism stand on its own too, but her ideas were all but rejected in the end.

But capitalism does rule, in the main. The Cold War ended because Russia was broke and couldn't afford the arms race. Most wars now are wars over economic terratory, usually by opposong ethnic groups. In the West our governments are conveniently forgetting China's bad human rights record because they now make goods cheaper than most other places.

While politicians, spiritual people and philosophers wax lyrical over impossible ideals, the businessmen are getting on with the job. Money does make the world go round.

Love does too but only when people are reasonably economically comfortable.

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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 00:56:33 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Is God a capitalist?
Message:
Dave:

I get a kick out of the description of our society as 'affluent,' when there's a pretty sizable minority that can't afford proper housing or food. If you can afford not to work to maintain a high standard of living then you're affluent. I'm also intrigued by the concept of a *truly* affluent society. Would 'things' still be at a premium? I doubt it. It's not out of the question, either. I speculate about that, and about the implications of therapeutic cloning. When age no longer matters, what sort of society will we have? It's not out of the question, either.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 15:41:44 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz?
Message:
South American Amazonian Indians have spoken of going to a 'heaven' where they work in factories and make cars, 'just like the Americans do'.

Are you shittin' me?

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 20:06:57 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz?
Message:
Well Jerry, light reading it is not but it does throw everything upside down and kind of makes me think that what Westerners think of as Heaven is based upon our Christian culture.

Click here for NDEs and OBEs in a Melanesian society

I'm afraid you'll have to read the whole page to understand it all, and slowly too.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 04:49:48 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Whatever the Experience...m should get out of it!
Message:
But to jump from those feelings to saying that these were experience of God seems a little presumptious and arrogant to say the least.

JHB,

I too had some incredible experiences in meditation. And even before joining the cult, during the course of my involvement and subsequent disaffection with it...I've somehow always believed in God.

I'm wondering now what would be so 'presumtious and arrogant' as you put it, for you to claim that you had an 'experience of God?'...I mean if that's how you really felt about it. Personally, I can't see the presumptiousness and arrogance on your part.

Where I do see it, is in the case of the one who would manipulate and deceive you into believing that HE was somehow essential to this process of you experiencing God...that the experience was somehow dependant on your relationship to HIM, specifically how much you love HIM, are devoted to HIM and express your devotion in PARTICIPATION in HIS work, which he'll tell you is about bringing HIS KNOWLEDGE to the world, when in fact it's really about the creation of HIS FINANCIAL EMPIRE. Now THAT'S where presumptiousness and arrogance have gone haywire!

M was never and he isn't today, the source of ANYTHING that anyone on this planet is experiencing in meditation, unless that person hasn't been able to seperate for themselves the pure act of meditation and m's bullshit associated with it during their course as a premie. It's almost inspite of his fraudulent pesumptiousness and arrogance, that we were able to have those moments when the experience truly felt right, even divine or like that of God.

You wanted it. You reached within to get it, and because it was and is part of YOU (and not m), you were able to experience it.

YOU deserve the credit for that experience! Not m!!
IMO, he's an illegitimate, conniving, middleman... who won't get out of the way...and let his premies go free.
He still wants to feed off them. He just can't let go.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 12:15:58 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Whatever the Experience...m should get out of it!
Message:
Joey,

I agree with you 100% about M's fraudulent claims regarding knowledge. However, when you say:-

I'm wondering now what would be so 'presumtious and arrogant' as you put it, for you to claim that you had an 'experience of God?'...I mean if that's how you really felt about it. Personally, I can't see the presumptiousness and arrogance on your part.

I must disagree. I now think it was incredibly arrogant of me to make that association. Just because I, with very little experience of life, had an experience that really impressed me, doesn't mean I can then say that that was God. I think a little more proof was required before jumping to such astonishing conclusions!:-)

John.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 04:26:36 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: I agree.
Message:
I think where he REALLY hooked us wasn't in the K session. Maybe in the days of K lite this is not such a big factor but what hooked premies in my day was the feeling of connectedness and love among the other premies. Even then, I think we attributed, I did at least, the magical feeling bonds I had with my premie friends then to M. He encouraged that of course. But funny thing is, as an ex, I have so much more of a feeling of connectedness than I ever did then. And life still has its share of magical moments, Rawat just doesn't get the credit for them anymore. It is as if he pointed at rainbows and said, see I made that for you, and we bought it. What fools. The rainbows were ours all along.
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 08:23:03 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: agreement
Message:
Most clubs and groups seem to be based on an agreement between the members.

I find this forum interesting because the only concensus of agreement is that we have left M.

There are many different perspectives shared here which is extremely healthy and was never allowed in the cult.

By the way I also agree with Joeys assessment.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 19:59:05 (GMT)
From: Sir David
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: How religions and cults work
Message:
A good way that religions and cults have of controlling people is by demonising some normal, basic human experiences. Such things as sex, anger, hatred, and desire for prosperity are demonised by religion as evils which should be risen above.

The fact that nobody can rise above such normal human traits means that the religions can tell people they are lacking in the correct qualities and are thereby sinners or unenlightened.

If people are brainwashed enough by religion or so called spiritual philosophy to believe that they have to aspire to an impossible goal where they are sexless, full of love and happy with a mediocre lifestyle, then they are trapped in a self made box for all of their lives, constantly feeling unworthy and in need of salvation.

This reminds me of how Maharaji used to operate. He would control people's lives and have them live an inhuman lifestyle which was detremental to their physical, emotional and mental health. So all of these freaked out premies would attend a Maharaji program, each feeling alone and isolated in their own bubble of pain and frustration, not to mention confusion.

When Maharaji walked on stage, they believed their saviour from their living hell was before them. He was given extra importance by the individual's suffering. Henceforth, premies felt a release of pent-up emotion as Maharaji took his chair. He had come to save them from their living hell.

The same goes for the darshan line. A massive projection of hope was projected onto a little man sitting on a chair. People believed he would rescue them from their life of impossible misery. They believed that he knew their suffering and was here to save them.

That's why so many people (myself included) would sometimes cry when we saw Maharaji in the darshan line. Here at last was the person who knew the turmoil you were going through. Here was the God you'd been praying to all these months. If he so much as looked at you, you felt something very special.

The fact that Maharaji was probably thinking about his next meal or wondering when to take a break and have a cigarette, was unknown and unthinkable to most premies.

Strange to think that when Maharaji was at his most heavy during the late seventies and when he layed the most guilt trips on people and told them to move into ashrams, that was the time when he would have had the most premies weeping at his feet in the darshan line. That was also the time when he was truly getting into his hedonistic lifestyle.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 09:48:23 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: How religions and cults work
Message:
Sir David:

Yeah, but predestination was the most absolute control trip of all. Nothing you could do to change the outcome, and you had no way of knowing what the outcome would be since your predestined fate was known only to God. You'd think such a religion would lead to fatalism... but it didn't. It led to 'religious ascetism' and acquisitiveness. Wonder what would develop from a system with no personal constraints? I don't have that much against religions. They've got an uphill battle nowadays.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 00:53:38 (GMT)
From: mir
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: How Dave works
Message:
Come on Dave, what you described sounds like a scene out of Dante's Inferno. 'A living hell...?', or '...alone and isolated in their own bubble of pain???' Gimme a break! It just wasn't that bad!

Look, I don't doubt for a second you had a bummer of a time yourself but to paint the whole picture so bleak is quite irresponsible. Yeah I'm sure there were a few who saw things like you, but they were not in the majority. What you are doing is projecting the experience of a few on the thousands who were in the crowd...including me. There was a lot of real joy, real tears of gratitude, and real love that went both ways. You obviously missed the good bits Dave.

And for everyone out there who faked it, well what can I say, it was yourselves you were fooling and no one else. I'd be embarassed too.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 22:51:24 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: So tell me, mir
Message:
mir: You said, '...real love that went both ways....'

So tell me, how do you know that the love 'went both ways?' Be specific. Did he hug you in the darshan line or did he just let you kiss his feet? Did he sing a good love song to you (face-to-face) or did you just sing one to a silent crown-wearing statue sitting on an easy chair? Did he come down from the stage and dance with you personally? Did he come down from his elevated throne, look you in the eyes and say, 'I love you?' NOT!

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 03:10:33 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: Mirror, mirror on the wall...
Message:
And for everyone out there who faked it, well what can I say, it was yourselves you were fooling and no one else. I'd be embarassed too.

YOU'RE the one who's faking it now mir. If you were being straight with us, you'd be able to post under your own name, instead of hiding behind yet another fake handle.

Aren't YOU embarassed, or do you know no shame?

Then again, you're always hiding, aren't you?

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 02:16:30 (GMT)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: How a madman works
Message:
If the picture was not as bleak as I painted it then how come Maharaji daren't hold programs now in the West? How come most of those premies who gave their lives during the seventies are not premies now?

The fact is, he had a lot of us in a hellish trap and he knew it.

By the way, how come you don't use your own real name here but hide under a cloak of anonyminity instead? I think you are in a minority.

Maharaji held a lot of people in a vice-like grip during the seventies. He did so because he wanted to keep alive the myth that he was the Lord so that he could remain wealthy. That's about the strength of it.

He did not harass people into joining ashrams for their own benefit. He did it for his own benefit.

But he did shout and scream at people to give up their 'sex trips' because he was a raving madman and while he was screwing around with anything in a skirt, he demanded that his devotees remained celibate and under his complete control. I'm sorry but I did not see any reason to feel gratitude there.

At the Kissimee 'festival' where the above mentioned ranting went on; people left in droves never to return to the lotus feet again. His rant sent people running away and they were the lucky ones who realised that Maharaji was a lunatic who had no idea how much he was damaging people. Or perhaps he knew but didn't care.

Those who didn't leave on that exodus, stayed because we still believed that Maharaji was the Lord. We thought we had no other choice. Our heads were totally messed up but we stuck with it. We stuck with it until Maharaji decided to disband his little experiment and disown his devotees.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 14:30:40 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: How a madman works
Message:
Dave -

I remember Kisseemee and the days of heavy satsangs. M opened the festival with a punch and I remember returning to my tent after a strong dose of fire and brimstone around late afternoon. I overheard many other premies talking about the tough approach of M as they walked back from the stage area, on their way to having a 'ginseng rush' or fruit yoghurt. Most people seemed to be twisting logic into strange shapes to deal with it all and came out with lines like 'oh I love it when Maraji beats me with his words' or 'he's the only person who can give you a good thrashing and it feels good'! I just followed along as these guys were older and more experienced than me. I hadn't had K for very long so I was prepared to accept all kinds of shit as I just didn't trust my own feelings or thoughts. Can you believe it was called 'knowledge' of all things.

With regard to all the pain you tell of, I must say I didn't see it quite that way. I was already very confused and twisted from a Roman Catholic upbringing. M sort of became my new billing agent. When I became disillusioned with Jesus I experienced a period of severe emptiness, I was feeling physically nauseous, very similar to the feeling I had when I became an ex-premie last year. Maraji stuck his head up and in a sense offered a service to take over the debt from the Roman Catholic books. There was immediate relief for me when I accepted M as the new dude. No more guilt or emptiness about Jesus, all that anxiety was just transferred in one lump straight over to Maraji. On inspection the only difference was that my premium payments went UP! I suppose it was more exciting than Catholic Mass though. I can't blame M for putting me into my confused and desperate state of being but he certainly DID capitalise on my condition and ept it going, as indeed he did for so many others. The question that bugs me is whether or not M did his work at that time with the same cynical attitude he displays these days.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 08:28:15 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: anonymity
Message:
I thought the desire for anonymity was respected here on this forum?

I have given away mine to some premies and am experiencing a threatening attitude from them which is unpleasant for me and my family. Hal

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 13:38:43 (GMT)
From: Joey.
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: anonymity
Message:
That's interesting Hal.
Maybe premies are a bit more 'fanatical' than you wanted us to believe in that thread below?
'Moderate' is how you actually referred to them. But do moderate people go around threatening others?
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 13:45:47 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Joey.
Subject: anonymity
Message:
Joey,

I should redefine it as aggressive, rather than directly threatening. Similar to your current bully boy tactics against me.

The only bully I succumbed to in my life was M .

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 18:19:41 (GMT)
From: Mirror
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: If it were only as simple as black and white...
Message:
Hal, I admire your strength in not succumbing to Joey's bitter and abusive approach to life. Though you and I disagree on Maharaji right now, I believe we share an underlying respect for others that was at one time the hallmark of premies. Over the years, probably with the erosion of the ''community'', this respect for each other has diminished, but speaking for myself I will not allow this rift between two opposing views draw me into the spectre of hate that Joey and some others espouse.

If we strip away ALL our beliefs we are all left with nothing--just simple and vulnerable beings. No matter what beliefs we pile upon ourselves after that, we must never lose recognition that this vulnerable being is the basis for our interaction with ALL others. I am confident it is only in that recognition that there will be world peace. The telling sign is how we deal with our ''enemies''. That is what really distinguishes the charitable from the unenlightened.

If Joey and Jim and others don't want to see that, or they think it's too new-agey, airy-fairy then they are indeed part of the problem in this world. Love and respect for each other is definitely NOT a new-age concept...and it's definitely not a weakness.

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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 15:04:32 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: I love you too, Mirror!
Message:
Love and respect for each other is definitely NOT a new-age concept...and it's definitely not a weakness.

Yes, NIL-URL-Mirror, we've always felt the love and respect that you have former members of m's cult.

It's like...it just oozes out of you! :::)))

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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 15:24:45 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: An apology to Joey
Message:
Sorry i got a bit intense the other day. I was a bit stressed out.Maybe it's because of my period.
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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 15:55:05 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: An apology to Hal
Message:
And I apologize to you Hal. Pretty much the same thing happenned to me.
Man, those periods can get pretty intense, eh?! :::)))
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 23:20:39 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: If it were only as simple as black and white...
Message:
Mirror: You said, 'If we strip away ALL our beliefs we are all left with nothing--just simple and vulnerable beings.'

Sorry, but having copious 'beliefs' doesn't make you invulnerable to anything nor does the absence of 'beliefs' leave you with nothing. Beliefs are just thoughts and nothing more. Beliefs can't defend you in a crisis, they 'may' provide a mental escape when things get too difficult, but nothing more than that. If you have nothing more than your beliefs to defend yourself, then you really DO have nothing! If you want to be able to defend yourself, then you must recognize your weakness, whatever it may be, and strengthen that weak part. Your beliefs won't defend you when a bully wants to punch you in the nose, but a good right-hook, and knowing when to use it, will do just fine!

You said, '...we must never lose recognition that this vulnerable being is the basis for our interaction with ALL others. I am confident it is only in that recognition that there will be world peace. The telling sign is how we deal with our ''enemies''. That is what really distinguishes the charitable from the unenlightened.'

So, exactly what are you saying here? Vulnerability equates to peace? Be weak and your enemies won't strike? What? Wait a minute..... I thought M said that HE would establish peace in this world..... in less that 20 years from the time the question was asked (about 30 years ago), if I remember correctly.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 13:56:16 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: knock it off Hal!
Message:
I should redefine it as aggressive...

Hey Hal, feel free to redifine it as often as it suits your purposes.

Well I'm glad that you at least acknowleged m as a bully, but BTW, I'm really not bullying you Hal. Just confronting your contradictions.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 20:54:17 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: That's fine by me Joey
Message:
l
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 20:33:21 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Sir David
Subject: How religions and cults work
Message:
There were times when I tried to make myself cry, because that was obviously a sign of being a good devotee. It all seems so foolish and naive now.
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 18:44:08 (GMT)
From: Video Vixen
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: LOTU Video For Sale on eBay
Message:
There's a Lord of the Universe video for sale on eBay starting at $9.99 (a good deal, btw). A must-have to assist in that walk down Memory Lane.

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=266388925

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 21:26:18 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Video Vixen
Subject: thanks I bid on it! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 11:39:07 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: thanks I bid on it! (nt)
Message:
I hope you get it, Susan. That's a GREAT deal - the video retails for $60 bucks, and, as you may know, it costs about $15 bucks to even make a copy of a video.

Good luck!
Katie

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 15:57:40 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: eeck I am in a bidding war (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 23:15:35 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: thanks I bid on it! (nt)
Message:
That is too funny Susan. Did you get it? I can't
imagine too much competition.
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 08:12:54 (GMT)
From: Recent Exes
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Recent Exes Forum
Message:
RE is a non-flaming forum which was originally started for recent exes but does includes older exes. Members are admitted only with the agreement of the group.

If you would like to join, please send email to:
recentexes@yahoo.com

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 21:03:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Recent Exes
Subject: What policy did you come up with re gossip?
Message:
Hm?
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 21:09:15 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim and Sir Dave
Subject: I think gossip should be said on AG!
Message:
But I was told that isn't what it is for.
Hey Sir Dave can you clarify that for me?
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 03:55:43 (GMT)
From: El Magnifico!
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: For $5 you can worship me!
Message:
For a one time donation of $5 you may worship me! I am El Magnifico the Magnificent One!

Why am I so magnificent? Because! That's why!

Here is the deal:

You define how you are to worship my magnificence and what form your worship will take. That should be very easy to do. After all, my magnificence is overwhelmingly obvious.

I do recommend that whatever you do, do not violate the laws of your respective nations, states, commonwealths, counties, cities, towns, municipalities or villages. El Magnifico would not be pleased.

You may make statues to my magnificence! The grander that you want the statues to be will define just how willing you are to understand my magnificence. This is of course a matter of your personal taste. Gaudy is good and sublime is fine too! Just don't expect me to pose for you. I am too busy at this time being magnificent.

You may write holy scripture praising my magnificence! The more outlandishly magnificent your scripture, the better!

You may form worship groups to reafirm just how magnificent you know that I really am.

Feel free to tell others that they are not worshiping my magnificence correctly! You and only can really understand just how magnificent I really am!

Remember that you have no magnificence of your own! Only I am the one and true source of magnificence!

This is my guarantee: You pay the paltry one time sum of $5 then you are entitled to spend the rest of your un-natural little life knowing that I, El Magnifico the Magnificent One am the one true embodiment of magnificence!

All others pale before my magnificence. Just do not ever expect to see me in all of my personal magnificence. You would not be able to understand, comprehend or attain to any true understanding of my magnificence. So don't even try!

Always remember that you have no magnificence of your own except that you reflect the barest glimmer of my magnificence.

Finally: If enough people pay the one time low fee of only $5, something magnificent will be realized! My retirement!

For your own peace of mind you may consider me the true diety of magnificence - even though I am just a fictionlized character on an internet forum. But, the more you diefy my magnificence the better you will feel. I'm sure.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 17:01:25 (GMT)
From: Mu
Email: None
To: El Magnifico!
Subject: No thing
Message:
There is nothing to whore ship!
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 15:23:17 (GMT)
From: ME
Email: None
To: All who are not ME
Subject: For $4 you can worship ME!
Message:
Why worship 'El Magnifico' for $5 when you can worship ME for $4? You save a dollar. Plus, no statues, writing or any of that shit, just show me the money and worship ME.

There is only ME, forget about magnificence, yourself, and that 'El Magnifico' fake. He's just into it for the money. ME am not into it. Why? Because ME know money does not exist, there is only ME. ME am asking for this paltry sum only for your benefit, it is a teaching. Just something to get you started. Of course, you may give ME more of that non-existant money later as a reaffirmation if you want, you really don't have any use for it anyway, but ME don't care.

ME

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 18:00:26 (GMT)
From: Ozob
Email: Ozob@throne.net
To: ME
Subject: Forget these charlatans
Message:
For I, Ozob, do not ask for your money. You can worship me for nothing! And what's more, I will not teach you anything because everything you want to know is already there within you.

A master who claims to teach you something is a fake. There is nothing to teach because you are already enlightened. You just need me to tell you this.

Just send a donation, if you feel appreciation.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 15:57:31 (GMT)
From: I
Email: None
To: ME
Subject: Limited time offer
Message:
For just 3 dollars, that's right, THREE, not 5, not 4, like those other fake magnificos, I will allow you, in my infinite benevolence to worship 'I'. Later for ME and to hell with Magnifico (which is where I'm going to send him, I assure you. Yes, I do hold the power). So, subscribe now to your personal salvation, during this one time, limited time offer. Hurry, don't miss the boat. Don't watch as your wiser friends rushed to their phones to partake in the glory of 'I'. Be one of the chosen ones and pick up that phone now!

Call 555-IAM-INHEAVEN. Have Visa or Mastercard ready.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 22:02:20 (GMT)
From: ME2
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Get yer worship for 2.50 while it's hot!
Message:
Your limited time offer from I has expired, don't worry, I was a fake anyway.

As for 'Ozob', yea, you can worship that clown for nothing all right, cause that's all you'll get. And guess what, you are not enlightened because you aren't, there is only ME2, the next incarnation of ME. ME2 don't offer 'enlightenment', ME2 won't teach you anything, cause you ain't nothing. It's simply your DUTY to acknowledge this. ME2 don't offer you anything, who the hell do you think you are, something? You MUST send me 2.50 and worship ME2. It is only by worshipping ME2 that you can even be. That's it, end of story.

Call 1-555-ME2-SEND. ME2 accept Visa, Mastercard, and American Express

ME2

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 16:45:12 (GMT)
From: El Magnifico!
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Unlimited magnificence offer
Message:
Beware of cheap imitations! Bargain basement would be dieties do not satisfy like El Magnifico!

There is only One True Path to My Magnificence! Remember I have no rules but one - send in your $5.
After that it is all up to you.

The True worshippers of My Magnificence already know where to send the money! Cash only please.

The True worshippers of My Magnificence may spend thier money as they wish. As long as they continue to praise My Magnificence.

Never forget that there is only one true El Magnifico! Let My Magnificence fill up your pathetic little lives. Even though you may never prove worthy to actually gaze upon the Magnificence of El Magnifico! you may feel free (after sending in your $5) to imagine me in all of My Magnificence!

You may already know Me by My other title El Grandioso! If so, you should redeem all of your coupons and send in another $5.
Cash only - please.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 18:41:07 (GMT)
From: Looking before leaping
Email: None
To: El Magnifico!
Subject: Unlimited magnificence offer
Message:
Is there a Mrs. Magnificence?
A Mata Magnificence?
Got any brothers?
Mistress Magnificence?
Got any niece/daughter situations?
Do you drink Magnificent Liquor?
Do Magnificent drugs?
Have a crown like moon or a lord of the universe?
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 20:57:35 (GMT)
From: El Magnifico!
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Magnificence Worship - explained - again!
Message:
The worship of El Magnifico! does not bring enlightenment (except to lighten your wallet - cash only, remember?)

There is no salvation, realization, or meditation required for the worship of El Magnifico! Worship of MY MAGNIFICENCE! is all that is required. Along with $5 of course!

Yes El Magnifico! has brothers and sisters. No, El Magnifico! does not deign to share HIS MAGNIFICENCE! retirement plan with siblings. After all they are not El Magnifico! They are leeches not worthy...never mind!

The MAGNIFICENCE! of El Magnifico! is so MAGNIFICENT! that women can not resist MY MAGNIFICENCE!, men are jealous of MY MAGNIFICENCE!, and children are frightened of MY MAGNIFICENCE!

If any of you were ever worthy to gaze upon my true form of MAGNIFICENCE!, you would not be able to exist! That is why it is most important for you to worship me from afar! Let it not be said that El Magnifico! is not understanding! If you had but one crumb of MY MAGNIFICENCE!, you would become MAGNIFICENT! too. Fortunately for you that is not possible!

For those of you aspiring to worship El Magnifico! remember to pay cash.

For those already qualified to worship MY MAGNIFICENCE! (those who have already sent in the cash) - GET A LIFE SUCKERS!

El Magnifico the One True Embodiment of MAGNIFICENCE! has spoken!
That is all! You may seek me out in the MAGNIFICENCE! of my cyber abode but you will never attain to be even a toenail clipping of MY MAGNIFICENCE!

So pay up and stop bothering ME!

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 22:05:46 (GMT)
From: I
Email: None
To: El Magnifico!
Subject: Money back guarantee!
Message:
Children, if you are not satisfied within 30 days, and I guarantee you will be after I'm through with you after you have finished the home study course for the worship of 'I', you will be given a FULL REFUND. Yes, after 30 days, if you are not fully satisfied after you have been so gloriously indoctrinated into the worship of 'I' (which is me, of course, not ME), you will be returned your full investment of a mere 3 dollars. So send your money to me, who is not ME, but 'I', and rest assured that with this money back guarantee, which only 'I' am offering, that YOU can't lose! So stay away from those other fake, phony MEs and Magnificos. Only 'I' am worthy of your worship. So hurry now while the offer still stands!

Call 555-IAM-INHEAVEN. Have Visa or Mastercard ready. Money back guarantee if you are not fully satsfied within 30 days.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 22:44:54 (GMT)
From: El Magnifico!
Email: None
To: I
Subject: Don't blow it for the rest of us - fool!
Message:
Hey, 'I' . You are blowing it for the rest of us. Ixnay on the oneymay ackbay!

You know that there are enough suckers for us all! That fool that isn't charging any moola doesn't know what he is doing! They gotta pay. You know it. I know it. Let's just not blow a good thing for all of us, OK?

See ya in Aculpoco, Paco! ;-)

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 02:48:55 (GMT)
From: I
Email: None
To: El Magnifico!
Subject: Relax
Message:
Hey, Magnifico. You know and I know that once we've got em, WE'VE GOT 'EM! Nobody's gonna want their money back. Hell, it'll be years before they even know what hit them. So be cool, fool! It ain't my fault if I'm a better promoter than you are.
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 04:12:47 (GMT)
From: El Magnifico!
Email: None
To: I
Subject: Relax - so true
Message:
Yeah, you're right. It's just that I have this big balloon payment due on my jet and contributions have been tapering off lately!

And one of my former mistresses keeps asking for an increase in the child support payments.

And I've got some drainage problems on the Austrailian mansion.

Well, you know how it goes. It ain't easy being rich, brother!

Also, I've got to get to work on my European push. I think things have cooled down since, well you know.

Are we still on for that Acupolco trip? They've got the best connections down there.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 23:25:03 (GMT)
From: just one devotee
Email: None
To: El Magnifico!
Subject: Don't blow it for the rest of us - fool!
Message:
Hey El Magnifico! I know pig latin! I'm telling.
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 16:08:55 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: TO ALL OF YOU MASTERS
Subject: Very funny thread. Tks. hahahaha nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 19:57:26 (GMT)
From: Mu
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Just for fun!
Message:
For your enjoyment only!

HAHAHAHAH and HOHOHOHO

buddha funnies

------------------------------
Wise blind elephants

Six wise, blind elephants were discussing what humans were like. Failing to agree, they decided to determine what humans were like by direct experience.

The first wise, blind elephant felt the human, and declared, 'Humans are flat.'

The other wise, blind elephants, after similarly feeling the human, agreed.

-----------------------------
'There were these two Buddhist monks who had about 13 beers each. One had to walk home quite some distance.

'Will you be all right to walk home?', the one asked

'Of course, I will take the Middle Path,' he replied.'

------------------------------------

'I gained nothing at all from Supreme Enlightenment, and for that very reason it is called Supreme Enlightenment.'

-- Gotama Buddha

-----------------------------------

As is stated in the colorectal sutra verse 118: The enlightenment experienced through meditation can be compared to the sphincter muscle. It is the only muscle in the body that works when
relaxed, and the more relaxed the more ecstatic the experience. Jungle humor with a touch of truth, everybody.

- Kenneth J. Smith

---------------------------------------------------
A short conversation between Dan Bammes and Meng:

Dan: A Buddhist teacher taught that every other living creature is our parent in one of our past lives.

Meng: Similarly, every other living creature owes me money in a past life.
----------------------------------------------------

Q: What happens when a Buddhist becomes totally absorbed with the computer he is working with?
A: He enters Nerdvana.

--------------------------

Q: How do I become a Lama? (Premies may substitute guru for lama)

A: Go to a monastic university and study for twenty-five years. Begin by memorizing Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakosha with its commentary (500 pages or so). Then study what you have memorised by hearing lectures on it and debating the contents with other candidates until you can argue every side of every controversy equally well. Then memorise several works of Nagarjuna, along with their commentaries. Then memorise the seven treatises of Dharmakirti. In additional to that study, you must master several forms of meditation and study tantric rituals for about two or three years.

Alternatively, you can come to America and just call yourself a lama. Billions of nubile virgins will follow you everywhere and give you money.

---------
Q: How many wives does Buddhism allow?

A: You may have as many as your tolerance for misery can bear.
------------

My kinda buddha!

HAHAHAHAH and HOHOHOHO

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 22:41:49 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mu
Subject: More links to Buddhist jokes
Message:
Buddhist Humour

Religious Jokes

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:16:06 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: G
Subject: More links to Buddhist jokes
Message:
Funny shit, G. Love those Buddhist lightbulb jokes.
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:07:23 (GMT)
From: Mu
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Thank you! HAHAHAHAH and HOHOHOHO! (nt)
Message:
tn
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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 02:33:01 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Mu
Subject: A mind is a terrible thing to watch!
Message:
A Buddhist twist on the mind is a terrible thing to waste, for those into technical Buddhist humour.

-- Dep

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 10:38:48 (GMT)
From: stonor
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Is that why you've turned yours off? (nt)
Message:
too easy to twist again! (my humour)
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 19:36:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Does anyone here exercise? (ot)
Message:
Someone turned me on to this book, Body for Life, which is this 'you-can-stop-being-a-slug-and-look-great-in-less-time-than-you-imagined' kind of book. Anyone familiar with it? Anyone exercise? I don't. And look at me! Turning into this formless blob.

Okay, inspire me. (yawn..)

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 17:18:40 (GMT)
From: Curious
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What about Tae Bo?
Message:
I've been watching the Tae Bo infomercials and it has piqued my curiosity, although I inherently distrust informercials. Does anyone have any experience with Tae Bo?

Thanks

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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 14:12:33 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Curious
Subject: What about Tae Bo?
Message:
Not me. On a superficial level it looks pretty much like a fad though. Not really dance and not really self defense it looks like the sort of new agey thing where you just jump around a lot waving your arms. Sort of like a Tai Chi wannabee, who won't invest in learning the forms.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 22:09:22 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Jim
Subject: Does anyone here exercise? (ot)
Message:
What you need is a job with the local phone or power company working the lines. I went from being a bench tech to climbing poles. Got me in shape in no time-great for warming up on those cold mornings too. And you don't have a choice either about getting off the couch.
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 22:01:43 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: all
Subject: has anyone tried a treadmill?
Message:
As I can almost FEEL the long hot summer approaching
I am thinking of buying one of the really good
ones with the incline and the whole nine yards.
Do they get really boring? really, has anyone
tried them? They seem to be the only thing I have
ever stayed with at any gym I ever joined.
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 09:34:53 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: has anyone tried a treadmill?
Message:
Selene:

I used to run on a treadmill once in awhile when the snow was too deep to run outside, but usually preferred running on a trail no matter what the temperature. The only downside to a treadmill is that it's just as high impact as running, and not as interesting.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 16:21:14 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: has anyone tried a treadmill?
Message:
Hi Scott
I am glad you mentioned the impact issues. Thanks I
think I whould research it a little. The boredom
factor I'll have to live with. It gets SO hot there
is not much exercise I can do outside even at night
for months.
so I 'blob' out if I am not real careful and
I have learned the hard way I HATE gyms.
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 21:19:48 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: has anyone tried a treadmill?
Message:
Treadmill? - nothing compared to humping pianos in and out of a Divine Sales van over a year or two.

Slavery? didn't we just lap it up?

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 22:57:10 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: cqg
Subject: humping pianos???
Message:
cqg!!! are you doing X with those crazy ravers?
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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 20:48:08 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: humping pianos???
Message:
You've lost me there, Selene.

are they a band or something? - like the smashing pumpkins?

(in my language humping means 'lifting' - well usually!)

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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 21:20:04 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: cqg
Subject: that's a good sign I lost you
Message:
Means you live a wholesome life.
Well, either way you would get exercise.
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 14:54:40 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Does anyone here exercise? (ot)
Message:
I just ordered an Orbitrek, in the hope that I can become a jogging potato in front of the tv instead of a couch potato. The low impact feature is what attracted me.
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 18:55:57 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Does anyone here exercise? (ot)
Message:
dv:

The low impact is appealing, and the fitness benefit looks significant, but the arm motion combination is goofy. Not like anything in the real world. (It looks a little like skiing, but isn't really.) I can't see that it would hold interest for very long. One reason I got into rowing machines is that there's a whole subculture around them: internet competitions, world championships, international rankings, and a solid fitness benefit.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 03:38:52 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Does anyone here exercise? (ot)
Message:
Thanks Scott, I'll keep that in mind. I wondered about the arm thingys, but they are optional. At least I get 60 days to try it out. Both my shoulders have been injured for about 15 years, so I don't know if rowing would be helpful or not.
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 09:26:37 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Does anyone here exercise? (ot)
Message:
dv:

Shoulder problems probably rules out rowing. I have some bursitis, but as long as I don't set the drag too high I'm fine.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 01:45:08 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Get A Personal Trainer
Message:
I've never heard of that book, Jim, and I have never heard of anyone changing their exercise habits just because they read one.

I was an avid (addicted) runner for many years, starting when I was community coordinator in Miami in 1980 and decided that I didn't want to be out of shape anymore. I started running in the morning around Coral Gables and when I came to California, I increased the intensity, and I could eat whatever I wanted and never gain weight. I also did a lot of biking, but I find that biking doesn't give the overall workout that running does.

But I got really tired of being so lean, so, and this is my recommendation, I got a personal trainer, which is the best thing that ever happened to me. It's worth every penny. If I was on my own, I would overtrain, which is the mistake most people make. So, I got heavy into weight lifting, and I gained 35 pounds, with a lot of advice from somebody who knows what he is doing. I started eating fish to get more protein, and I cut back some on the cardio, otherwise I would have burned off all the muscle, but after a couple of years I increased the cardio again, to about 75% of what I used to do. I've plateaued at the higher weight, and probably won't gain more unless I really change my diet in ways I don't want to, and I can again eat whatever I want and not gain weight.

I've also read recently that it isn't true that it is harder to burn off fat as you get older. So, there isn't any excuse to be a blob.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 03:12:00 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Get A Personal Trainer
Message:
Hey JW:

Any tips on how to find a good personal trainer? Had lunch recently with a friend who suggested that that was the way to go, since running kills the knees etc., and she said having a good trainer made all the difference. I've always done bike riding, hiking, solitary outdoor pursuits etc., so I am not conversant with the trainer scene.

Thanks
M

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 22:12:26 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Finding a Personal Trainer
Message:
Hi Monmot.

Finding a personal trainer can be difficult, and I know people who have had bad experiences with trainers they have used. I think the best thing is to get references from people the trainer has worked with. There are also some general considerations:

Do you want to work with a trainer at a gym or health club, or do you want to work with someone who has a private gym? The latter was better for me. People often complain that you have to wait to use equipment, etc., at a gym and there is also more turnover in clientele. If the trainer is employed by the club, most of the money goes to the club, and not the trainer, so they are less motivated.

I was lucky to find someone who has a gym in his house, and has a very stable group of clients. Also, I really agree with the philosophy of the trainer, and he isn't into all kinds of trendy stuff, doesn't advocate the use of all kinds of trendy supplements, etc.

Be sure to interview the trainer and ask about his/her approach, and whether you feel like you can get along with the trainer. You will be spending quite a lot of time with the trainer, so it's better to find one that isn't annoying and you can talk to.

If you have free time during the day, you are probably going to have an easier time finding a trainer. Lots of people can only train early in the morning or in the evening because of work considerations so trainers tend to have more openings during regular business hours. Plus, you really have to train about 3X a week for it to really get results. I've been doing 3X a week for the past two years, and then I do cardio on my own an additional 3X a week.

Good Luck.

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Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 01:03:22 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Finding a Personal Trainer
Message:
JW:

I dated Sandra Day O'Conner's personal trainer for awhile. A very cute redhead with a fetish for potbellied pigs. She was a great dancer, but unfortunately I wasn't potbellied or piggy enough for her.

--Scott 'oinky' T.

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 23:56:53 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Thanks For The Info (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:50:52 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Does anyone here exercise? (ot)
Message:
I haven't been exercising lately, I need to start again. It certainly makes you feel and look better. Walking is an easy way to start. Rowing and cross country skiing both exercise the lower and upper body. Weight training is great for character building and health. Actually, once you get used to it, it's not so challenging. Need to be careful with how to weight train to prevent injuries. Ballroom dancing is fun, not boring at all, it's not just walzing.

That was another thing I didn't like about premiedom, such a lack of emphasis on exercise, not even hatha yoga. I think that was based on fanatical dualism. I remember this crazy guy talking about how meditation provided him all the exercise he needed.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 00:54:52 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Does anyone here exercise? (ot)
Message:
G:

Yep, dancing is about the most positive form of exercise I can think of. I like waltzes, but Scandinavian couples dancing is also nice (except that all the turning makes me dizzy). I also like figure dancing (contra and caille), since it allows for meeting a lot of different people. I don't like western line dancing though. Why bother practicing to be a robot, when you can't even touch anyone?

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:10:48 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Does anyone here exercise? (ot)
Message:
Okay, inspire me. (yawn..)

Yawn is right. The only excercise I can do consistently is take long brisk walks. It's the only excercise I enjoy. I think Ham's idea for dancing sounds good, but I don't do much of that anymore. Loved it when I did. But I think that's the key. Whatever excercise you choose, you've got to enjoy it. It won't be long before you become a couch potato, again, if you don't. It's just fucking torture any other way.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 04:37:02 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Does anyone here exercise? (ot)
Message:
Amen Jerry. The bottom line (no pun intended) is you have to enjoy it enough to make it part of your life, it has to be fun. We can't all have buns of steel like JW!! (JW I am just messin' with ya!)

I have even read that there are folks who can't lose weight but who are still fit because they exercise. The 'fit fat.' The important thing is to get out there and do it--move that body.

Swimming is gonna do it for me I think. FOr back pain and for toning. But I love walking the most--a 3 mile walk is the best. I've found that even walking briskly 20 minutes a day keeps the weight off.

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 21:46:47 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: House Music and Neuroscience
Message:
Walking = best thinking time, superb exercise, pretty effortless & the new age feel good factor is quiet enough to not be too objectionable.

When stronger emotions are afoot, walking with me walkman = dance music gets me off, later the endorphin opiates, again pretty effortless what with the music & all.

Toning : pick a random event whenever, and treat it with more diligence than would be the norm, sets off increased body awareness, causes me to take a timeout .....Increased discipline. One downfall, likely to trigger nectar technique.

Best of all dancing to house music, the ultimate multi-level democratic experience.......that's up there with the best (no drugs needed), invigorating & again pretty effortless since you only dance when your bodies been moved by the music, again pretty effortless, and excellent value for money.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 08:06:46 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Reduction of excess flab
Message:
hamzen said
'Best of all dancing to house music, the ultimate multi-level democratic experience.......that's up there with the best (no drugs needed), invigorating & again pretty effortless since you only dance when your bodies been moved by the music, again pretty effortless, and excellent value for money'

Couldn't agree more. I've benn doing it for just over a year and have lost about 25lbs of excess flab.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 14:38:43 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Reduction of excess flab
Message:
I'm probably an old fud, but what's 'house music?': Music to sell or build houses by? Is 'house' an inside term for reggae?
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 18:26:04 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: and sharpening of the mind
Message:
House music is electronic dance music that started in Chicago (at house parties) circa 82-5 & Detroit around same time.

Imagine Kraftwerk, Jean-Michel Jarre, funk, disco, & hip-hop all fused and speeded up, mostly 120-170 b.p.m. Now international though hardly known in its country of birth. In Britain especially, but also europe, the lifestyle & attitude around it have had wide effects socially, our whole culture has been changed drastically.

There is a lot of chemical usage around it, not as 'out there' as the sixties, but much greater staying power as a result of that.

The music and culture is thoroughly recommended for anyone from a cult experienced background.

While on the subject, has anyone got any Algerian rai, especially with hip-hop beats, or any French hip-hop?

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 15:59:19 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: jc@jethro666.screaming.net
To: Scott T.
Subject: Reduction of excess flab
Message:
Not sure how to define it since I only started listening to it a little more than a year ago.

If you want to sample some, email me where you live and I'll find out where the local events...I mean raves(as they are called) are held in your locality.

I think they are called raves because everyone has a bloody good time.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 18:28:54 (GMT)
From: DJ cat tranquilizer
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: raving mad
Message:
Raves are where you go to get your girlfriend inspired to
put a ring in her tongue.
Instead of using chocolate and coffee and suger rushes to get
high, youngsters that dont know that chocolate is the best
high do extasy (an amphetamine derivitive) and cat tranquilizers
gotten from god knows where. It is a drug fiesta where
you dance till dawn. To music that usually has few lyrics.

You could go and not use drugs. You would be in the smallest
of minorities. Madonnas 'ray of light' is a song that uses
music you would hear at a rave. I would go but too many of
my nieces and nephews and kids of friends of mine go.
They sport the necessary piercings and tatoos and do the
requisite drugs and keep the hours 'did I wake you? it's
2:15 in the afternoon!' (an exerpt from a call I recently made).

Heroin addiction is a plus!

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 19:42:51 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: DJ cat tranquilizer
Subject: raving mad
Message:
Well certainly here in the UK, it's not like you've described.
I have no idea who does and does not take drugs....and that goes for any setting.
Here in the UK people often go with their kids and even grand-kids.

Here is some ravesang:

Go and experience it for yourself......if you don't like, don't go again.....but I bet you will like it.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 19:10:34 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: DJ cat tranquilizer
Subject: raving mad
Message:
DJ:

Re: It is a drug fiesta where
you dance till dawn.

In the Pacific NW they have all night contra dances, where you bring pot luck and have a big banquet at midnight before dancing 'til dawn. No drugs. Not even any alcohol. Lots of fun though.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 23:06:09 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: House Music and Neuroscience
Message:
I'm with you hamzen - walking with the right music and high energy dancing. Used to love running by my knees don't.

I DO NOT want to be a blob. I almost became one and hated it. It does something to the energy level that is bad.

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Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 20:36:42 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Does anyone here exercise? (ot)
Message:
Jim:

As you know, I cycle obsessively (about 3,000 to 5,000 miles a year). Since this affords me little benefit above the waist I've recently taken up rowing, or 'erging' as it's often called. Talk about your medieval torture... I'm convinced, however, that it not only keeps me in decent physical and cardiovascular shape, but builds character. The only real problem I've had with exercise is that my parts seem to be wearing out, and for that reason running has long since become merely a memory. The other thing I like about erging is that it gives me the same sort of chemical rush that I used to get from weight training, so it's really a physical dependency that's partly masochistic. How could it help but build character?

If you row go for a first rate machine. Second rate rowing machines aren't worth diddly, and a good ergometer will run you $500 to $1500, and will last almost forever. I understand that they can lead to the floating devices called 'boats' too, which are even more expensive. Ever seen a lone single sculler on a beautiful spring day gently dipping his oars like the perfect man/machine combo?

Ford says that you need to give up this fruitless search for physical conditioning, and just buy one of their SUVs. Now, *that's* thinkin' and stinkin'.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 01:10:59 (GMT)
From: Bill Phillips
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Move it you lumpy lawyer
Message:
anyonw who knows me at all of is familiar with me through my
writing understands I firmly believe that a strong,healthy
mind resides in a strong healthy body. That, my friends,
is a fact. When I see men and women who are out fo shape, I see
lives not fully lived. I see lost potential. I see people
who need someone to help them realize that they CAN look and
feel better.
pg.2-body of life
So, don't just talk about my book, do it.
Try lifting the remote control of the tv up and down the whole
time you are watching Regis give away half the amount he
would if the contestants were exercising and thereby have
a healthy mind, able to answer those easy million dollar
questions.
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 01:36:00 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Bill Phillips
Subject: Move it you lumpy lawyer
Message:
Bill:

I have a friend from Issiqua[sp?] who rode in the Paris-Brest-Paris race last year. That's 1200 kilometers in under 80 hours. Anyone care to read his account I can post the link to his narrative, including what he had to go through to qualify for the event. This goes far beyond 'exercise' into the area of 'great adventure.' The average age of participants in the PBP is 40. Kent is completely nuts, of course. He doesn't even own a car.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 10:02:23 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: HHmmmmm
Message:
Careful Scott,

never learnt to drive, never owned a car, only ever driven a car while on a LOT of mushrooms, which was sometrhing else again, and I'm in your area soon.....

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 19:05:32 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: HHmmmmm
Message:
Ham:

Sounds like you'd get along well with Kent. I actually know him only through the internet newsgroups and list serves so far, though if I participate in the Seattle to Portland event this summer we might get together. I live at the other end of the continent, and my longest rides so far are in the neighborhood of 200km not 1200km. His latest thing is 'fixed gear' bikes, where you have only one gear for all occasions and without brakes have to slow down by pedaling at a lower cadence. (No freewheeling, so you can never stop pedaling.) For some reason this sort of challenge has become very popular.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 20:37:18 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: HHmmmmmmmmmm
Message:
200 km, like in 200 real k's, you must be mad, and as for that Kent, 1200!!! He's got to be stark raving lost-the-plot. Me, I prefer public transport, although the service does leave a little to be desired!!

So what's the beef Scott, what's the buzz like from cycling, and other side-benefits? Assuming that's the attraction?

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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 15:39:07 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: HHmmmmmmmmmm
Message:
Ham:

Re: So what's the beef Scott, what's the buzz like from cycling, and other side-benefits? Assuming that's the attraction?

Did you read Kent's report on the 1999 Paris-Brest-Paris? I think he does an excellent job of conveying the attraction of long distance cycling... or about as close as you can get without actually getting on a bike. It's mostly a competition with yourself, though you do pay attention when you get passed, or pass someone else. Basically, getting on a bike to ride anything above 60 miles is a guaranteed adventure, with a guaranteed feeling of accomplishment. It blew me away when I found I could average 19 mph for 100 miles. I'd give the mpg, but division by zero is undefined.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 03:11:22 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Move it you lumpy lawyer
Message:
VO2 MAX = 220 - (your age) X (65 to 80%)

Performed 3 X weekly for 10 minutes gets your cardiovascular in shape.

Similar criteria exist for weight training, minimizing the time needed to complete them.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 04:20:07 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: no fun!
Message:
I say put on the headphones head out
walk or run if the spirit moves you
and have fun
otherwise you will never keep it up.

I have tried it all
All I have kept with is stuff I enjoy
but this is my view only but geez Run that didn't
sound like much fun!

And I know for me if it isn't fun I won't stick with
exercise.

No scientific formulas for me.

So what about
my statement about sexism on forums over on AG?

That isn't fun I admit. OK a draw. I give. You
don't have to answer me over there. I doubt
anyone will. How could they? No one will answer.
After all. It is a female asking.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 18:15:25 (GMT)
From: Eva Gabor
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Lady Selene
Message:
Do post your sexist comments here.
If a canadian lawyer built like a snowman can bring up
this (ot) subject, you can haul the sexist post right here
for us to discuss. If it's important to you, it's important
to us.
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 19:02:24 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Eva Gabor
Subject: Lady Selene
Message:
No Jim can do what he wants. 'they' will all defend
him. I'll have to fight my own battles, whcich I
can and have done but I am sick of it.
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 05:43:56 (GMT)
From: EG
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Lady Selene
Message:
Is Jim Hassleing you?
That shouldnt be, what about?
Who is they?
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 15:52:09 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: EG
Subject: Lady Selene
Message:
NO Jim isn't harrassing me. If you read my post
on AG you will see I am addressing a general issue
about sexism on forums. Or was.
It won't be addressed so I don't care. But please
do NOT start a 'Jim is harrassing me' thing!
That is ALL I need!!
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Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 16:35:37 (GMT)
From: and ps EG
Email: None
To: EG
Subject: Lady Selene
Message:
if you want to continue this please to go AG
Really you will see I am adressing the FEMALES on
this - I just alerted Run because he was kind
enough to answer me over there!
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 03:29:18 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Move it you lumpy lawyer
Message:
Run:

The formula is an approximation, and notoriously inaccurate. For me it's about 25 bpm off. If you're saying that 30 minutes a week at that level will get your cardiovascular system in shape, it depends on what you mean by 'in shape.' It's certainly a lot better than nothing at all. I don't think you'll lose much weight at that level of activity though. And, it's a bit dangerous to launch into 10 min above VO2 MAX when you're not prepared for intense activity.

I like cycling because it gives you something interesting to do while you're pushing your heart rate up. But bear in mind that at VO2 MAX you're not going to be enjoying any scenery. It'll hurt. At 95% of maximum heart rate it'll hurt ALOT. I prefer an exercise regimen that mixes aerobic with anaerobic (AT+) so that I can enjoy myself once in awhile. It's the 'long haul' that's important, not short term gain.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 07:22:59 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Move it you lumpy lawyer
Message:
Scott, 90% is too high by the figures I posted.

The point is, if you're trying to go somewhere on a regular basis, you ought to know the fastest route. That doesn't mean you can't stop somewhere else when you want to, but no one has the time to fuck around on a daily basis. Spending 30-40 minutes successfully doing aerobics is practical but it takes some intelligence and practice to get it right.

There's plenty of evidence that one set of weightlifting does what someone used to 'have to do' three sets to get (although it's very recent research). One set takes 30-35 seconds only. Any more is a waste of time.

The only misleading thing is that there is plenty of warmup, cooldown and prep time, not to mention a shower if you plan on interacting effectively with the human race afterwards.

It may not sound fun, Selene, but it's nice to know the minimum work necessary to get something done.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 14:33:34 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Move it you lumpy lawyer
Message:
Run:

There's plenty of evidence that one set of weightlifting does what someone used to 'have to do' three sets to get (although it's very recent research). One set takes 30-35 seconds only. Any more is a waste of time.

This sounds like the typical yuppie delusion that you can have a perfect bod by mostly loafing. Fad findings on health come along at a pretty high rate, so I'm very skeptical. From a competitive point of view winning athletes don't seem to buy into the theory, while losing ones do. Granted, most people aren't interested in being competitive. If it is possible to obtain a decent level of fitness with a short regime like this then that might well save some of my friends and family who just don't have the interest to exercise much. Fine with me, but again... something sounds as fishy as that caveman diet, which was a pantload.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 18:30:23 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: No, it's legit Scott
Message:
Nope, this is really state of the art. There is a slight difference in total fat-burning and muscle gain but it's statistically insignicant. You do have workout to exhaustion per set to get the benefit. I'll use a little warmup set or two, but it's nothing like trying to do 3 or 4 sets, pyramiding.

You're hitting the slow twitch as hard as they can, so it works. Then, you have to work the maximum number of muscle groups (i.e., the press, row etc.) just like always.

Truth is a lot of trainers know the math but are stuck on teaching the old school triple-sets.

There is similar stuff researched in stretching but I haven't seen as much about it.

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 04:45:26 (GMT)
From: Jane Fonda
Email: None
To: Scott T./Run
Subject: Feel the burn on the esophagus
Message:
I gave it all up for my Ted and what does he do--divorce me! I gave up my movie career for him--& I have been vilified by Vietnam vets but by God there's one thing they can't take away from me--I have the body of a 21 year old and I'm pushin' 60 babe. No 'On Golden Pond' for me, no sir, I am keeping this body if I have to barf up every meal for it!
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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 18:08:45 (GMT)
From: Zha Zha Gabor
Email: None
To: Jane Fonda
Subject: Lumps or Lines Dearie!
Message:
At one point in a persons life they have to decide,
my face or my behind.
Jane, your behind may be slim but you are an unhappy
bitch without a husband and your face is drawn and pinched
with lines like a barbed wire fence.

Pork up honey, your face will be youthful and you will
be smiling. You can get back your hubby if you are cheerubic
and angelic. Takes chocolate to get that angelic look dearie!

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 03:21:28 (GMT)
From: Richard Simmons
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Dance your pants off!
Message:
Shake your tonnage away your cold blooded reptile
of a lawyer.

Scott T, Link away!
Runamok, how much running do you do?

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Date: Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 05:50:47 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Richard Simmons
Subject: Dance your pants off!
Message:
Richard:

Here's the link to Kent's site:

http://www.halcyon.com/peterson/pbp.html

--Scott

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