Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 10:22:47 (GMT)
From: Mar 09, 2000 To: Mar 20, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


G -:- .ex-cult Archive at ex-cult.org -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 00:32:23 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- why hasn't anyone here responded yet? -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 04:06:57 (GMT)

slackandsteel -:- Have they been 'in' on it all along? -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 18:38:58 (GMT)
__ JW -:- Have they been 'in' on it all along? -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 22:44:08 (GMT)
__ __ Happy -:- agree -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 13:24:47 (GMT)
__ Happy -:- Have they been 'in' on it all along? -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 19:00:55 (GMT)
__ __ Suspicious Mind -:- Suspicious helicopter crash -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 20:35:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Runamok -:- Suspicious helicopter crash -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 21:35:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- Suspicious helicopter crash -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 22:00:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Suspicious helicopter crash -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 02:48:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- ps: Suspicious helicopter crash -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 04:18:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Suspicious helicopter crash -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 22:11:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Not right after -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 22:27:48 (GMT)
__ __ slackandsteel -:- Have they been 'in' on it all along? -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 19:39:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Suspicious -:- Have they been 'in' on it all along? -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 20:46:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Happy -:- soap and helicopter -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 18:45:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Have they been 'in' on it all along? -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 20:26:12 (GMT)

Stonor -:- to Jerry, Nigel, Scott T. and anyone else -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 16:34:32 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Stuff all gods -especially the human variety..! -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 11:33:10 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- to Jerry, Nigel, Scott T. and anyone else -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 18:53:51 (GMT)
__ __ Runamok -:- Guirdjeef's Music/Alpert revisited zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 22:07:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Guirdjeef's Music - not Herb Alpert then? -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 17:00:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Herb Alpert to me, man -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 17:36:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Philip Glass? - no, Gurdjieff. (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 17:42:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- Guirdjeef's Music/Alpert revisited zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 21:11:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Yes Alpert really presses my buttons -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 23:25:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Yes Alpert really presses my buttons -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 01:40:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Bailey -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 02:45:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Bailey -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 03:53:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Theosophists -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 17:04:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Theosophists? -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 22:48:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- PS to cq on Kuhn and analogy -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 06:47:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Please excuse the delay -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 21:39:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I feel nothing -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 04:12:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Don't give me that shit -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 04:28:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- message above to Jim (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 21:41:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- General response-they basically overlap+birds! -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 00:40:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Parrots' intelligence and language -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 19:12:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- evolution through love? -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 20:37:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- parrots research -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 22:36:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Re: only an illusion of 'ooga booga' -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 04:02:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Music -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 19:57:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Music -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 21:11:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Piano, 'A True Lover' -:- Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 22:31:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Piano, 'A True Lover' -:- Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 00:34:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Pianos and keyboards -:- Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 01:19:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Pianos and keyboards -:- Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 02:59:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Pianos and keyboards -:- Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 03:14:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- ok then! -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 02:57:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Hitchcock did cross my mind -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 05:05:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Covert Questioning -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 05:59:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Questioning -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 06:30:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- stuff and nonsense -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 00:08:10 (GMT)

slackandsteel -:- I'm new here, but a premie from the old days -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 15:57:19 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- The Ulcer -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 14:21:56 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- welcome SlacknSteel! (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 04:00:37 (GMT)
__ Charlie -:- I'm new here, but a premie from the old days -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 23:48:23 (GMT)
__ __ slackandsteel -:- I'm new here, but a premie from the old days -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 00:44:01 (GMT)
__ JB -:- Definitely Journeys material (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 17:20:38 (GMT)
__ Gerry -:- Howdy Bill !!! -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 16:10:22 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Nice to hear from you -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 16:09:37 (GMT)
__ __ slackandsteel -:- Nice to hear from you -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 18:21:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Happy -:- Nice story -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 18:48:34 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- New stuff on my website!!! Mili, don't miss this!! -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 10:42:29 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Thanks, J-M. I have stolen it for my book... -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 14:28:07 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Mili, don't miss this!! ONE MORE PAGE today !!! -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 17:16:17 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Ok, what is the Paras Gem and Kalp Tree? (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 04:23:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Paras Gem and Kalp Tree: ask Prempal! haha!! -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 08:45:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- The 'Kalp Tree' is the 'wish fulfulling tree' -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 13:18:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- The 'Kalp Tree' is the 'wish fulfulling tree' -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 17:35:01 (GMT)
__ Curious George -:- How did you get chosen? -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 21:05:20 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- How did you get chosen? Very simple! -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 22:11:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- One detail I forgot to mention -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 04:51:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Curiouser and curiouser -:- Oh Jean, go into it again! -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 05:42:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I'll tell you if you're a good boy! -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 08:50:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- As if he'd ever sue, Jean-Michel ... (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 17:37:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Some conjecture about -:- the new instructors, helpful for premies -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 10:33:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Occasional Mole -:- the new instructors, helpful for premies -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 15:39:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel Freud -:- Impressed: yes. TERRIFIED: NO!!!! -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 17:21:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- TERRIFyingly insane booklet -:- Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 01:27:58 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Everybody is lost!! We all need a guru! -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 12:43:23 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Read more carefully! -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 15:22:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- But Shri Hans kept rituals like Arti and austerity -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 16:57:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- But Shri Hans kept rituals like Arti and austerity -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 04:26:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Concentration of mind is one thing, but what has -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 17:58:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Concentration, God, feelings, goals of life -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 18:37:51 (GMT)

Coach -:- re:This Djuro Dickhead. -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 20:46:20 (GMT)
__ Charlie -:- re:This Djuro Dickhead. -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 11:52:19 (GMT)

Djuro -:- Maharaji -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:27:36 (GMT)
__ Mickey Moss -:- Maharaji -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 06:19:32 (GMT)
__ that's because he lis the -:- lord of darkness. Inlight of day he WILL abandon U -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 23:06:23 (GMT)
__ __ cOACH -:- lord of darkness. Inlight of day he WILL abandon U -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 23:18:01 (GMT)
__ Mike -:- BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:16:48 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Ok, spell it out... -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:51:59 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Don't you mean Jesus? -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:40:26 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Maharaji -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:38:34 (GMT)
__ __ Mike -:- Hal.... pssst..... over here..... -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:20:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- Hal.... pssst..... over here..... -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 21:05:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- Luv ya! -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:32:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mike -:- Yes.... -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 21:41:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mike -:- I must be dense -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 20:06:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Sorry Mike, in shorthand mode at the mo -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 21:49:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Ohhhhhh, now I got ya -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 22:30:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- I forgot to mention...... -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 23:24:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Great Stuff Mike -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 18:25:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- I forgot to mention...... -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 01:11:20 (GMT)

Djuro -:- Love -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 17:25:57 (GMT)
__ ex-mug -:- Love -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 18:38:36 (GMT)
__ Harry -:- Love -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 23:12:31 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- Now (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:32:34 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- Service, man, pure service -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:47:27 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- Hamzen you make a lotta sense! (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:56:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ ham -:- Thanks Hal -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:43:46 (GMT)
__ Dgeri -:- Love -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:07:28 (GMT)
__ __ Djuro -:- Love -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:15:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike -:- Now THERE was an inspiring and -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 21:59:20 (GMT)
__ Mike -:- What garbage? -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:00:17 (GMT)
__ __ Djuro -:- What garbage? -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:12:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- What garbage? Your GURU's ! -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 21:10:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike -:- That's an outright LIE, Djuro -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:59:56 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- now (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 17:52:31 (GMT)
__ __ Djuro -:- now (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:06:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- That;s rich! -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:33:50 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Love -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 17:33:04 (GMT)
__ __ Mike -:- How true! -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:03:30 (GMT)
__ __ Djuro -:- Love -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 17:48:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Do you believe Prem Rawat is God, yes or no? nt -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 00:08:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Maharaji has claimed repeatedly to BE God -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:01:10 (GMT)

Occasional Mole -:- General Alert -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 16:16:24 (GMT)
__ JB -:- General Alert -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 00:15:23 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Some hints about programs' expenses -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 08:57:00 (GMT)
__ Mole #2 -:- This wkend,Ervine,CAL - Hyatt,800 fit (nt -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 00:09:09 (GMT)
__ __ eb -:- Is that Irvine? -:- Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 04:13:38 (GMT)
__ JW -:- Confused, as usual -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 00:48:24 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Confused, as usual -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 05:55:07 (GMT)
__ __ Remy -:- Confused, as usual -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 03:23:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- What about your aspirant's short life? -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 06:47:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Remy -:- What about your aspirant's short life? -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 14:21:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ The Proud Frog -:- So much for your American superiority, haha! (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 14:32:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Ha...we don't think we are, we KNOW we are -:- Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 19:01:03 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Good post ^^^^^ Thanks JW (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 02:41:35 (GMT)
__ Angry -:- General Alert/S.O.S.... -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:25:19 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- General Alert/S.O.S....TOO many times and... -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 20:09:52 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- Phase 2 for the umpteenth time! -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:50:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike -:- Now, there's an idea ham..... -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 20:40:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Now, there's an idea ham..... -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 17:57:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- BWAAAAHHHHH HA HA HA HA -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 18:19:59 (GMT)
__ Coach -:- New Labour? -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:13:46 (GMT)
__ Interested -:- New Instructors -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:00:35 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- General Alert -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:25:36 (GMT)
__ __ Djuro -:- General Alert -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:29:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mickey Moss -:- General Alert -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 18:18:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- General Alert: Because IS wrong, that why... -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 12:12:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike -:- Because M is a liar, haven't you figured that out? -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:29:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Coach -:- General Alert -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:24:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mike -:- BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:31:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- General Alert -:- Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:40:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- General Alert: hahahaha (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 12:13:35 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 00:32:23 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: .ex-cult Archive at ex-cult.org
Message:
See the web site .ex-cult Archive at ex-cult.org.

This site gets LOTS of visitors.

Under 'Other groups' there is a broken link to 'Ex-followers of Guru maraj Ji' at miraclevision.com/maharaji.home.htm

There is no mention of Maharaji's web sites under 'The Cults on the Web' or 'Cult Member Web Sites'. The only link is a broken link to a web site no longer in existence 'Milivoj Krkovic' about 'Guru Maharaj Ji / Divine Light Mission'.

They accept contributions and corrections.

This site has links to other web sites about cults.

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 04:06:57 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: why hasn't anyone here responded yet?
Message:
You are doing great research G. I've also wondered about the same thing as I've also visited that site - but as a non-anything, I haven't considered it my place to ask. I'm still surprised that no one here has responded to your very valid question yet.
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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 18:38:58 (GMT)
From: slackandsteel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Have they been 'in' on it all along?
Message:
This has probably been covered here before, but I'm new to the Forum and need to ask these questions:

1. Was Shri Hans a total con artist or deluded 'divine' Satguru?
Was he a spiritual adept or a complete fraud like his
son, who never meditated.

2. Did the 'Holy Family' actually believe they were Jesus,
Mary, Shiva, Ram etc or were they secretly laughing at
all this.

3. Do you think Maharaji ever thought he was a divine Satguru
or has been in on the scam all along, or still thinks he's
divine?

4. Has anyone close to the family, ie Marolyn, come forward
to say that the whole thing is crap and all of them know
it?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 22:44:08 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: slackandsteel
Subject: Have they been 'in' on it all along?
Message:
Here is what I think:

1. Yes, probably. At least the historical record seems to imply that Shri Hans was not in the direct lineage of the line of gurus.

2. I think the 'holy family' half believed they were divine and half laughed at us for ever believing it. Given the ridiculous things Bal Bhagwan Ji said prior to Millennium, like that New York was going to be destroyed by earthquakes, the pope was going to receive knowledge, and aliens were going to land at the Astrodome, he was either really deluded, or dumb as a post. Mata Ji was used to being in charge and went off the deep end when Maharaji and Raja Ji rebelled and wanted to become groovy westerners. She kind of went off the deep end after that. But they did sue Maharaji in India, and they won.

3. I think Prem Pal believed he was divine, especially when he was younger. I don't think he believes it now. He has become painfully aware that he doesn't have any powers and has failed in what he proclaimed he was going to do. So, now it is a business, which I think it was for his father, mother and brothers as well.

4. Well, Mishler did an expose in about 1979, and others have come forward to talk about Maharji's adulteries, drinking, use of drugs, almost total preoccupation with money, and cruel treatment of people who were devoted to him. I would expect as the kids get older, Marolyn might become more independent and the kids might start speaking up. But money and power tends to make people keep their mouths shut for fear of losing out on it.

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 13:24:47 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: agree
Message:
JW,
I agree 100% with your points.
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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 19:00:55 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: slackandsteel
Subject: Have they been 'in' on it all along?
Message:
Hmmm... I think all gurus are per definition con artists. If you claim to be a godman, perfect master, omniscient, omnipotent, able to save others - you simply must be a con man. There is no other alternative. Shri Hans was a con man, no doubt. He might have had better taste than his son - but read the 'Antidote to Nuclear Bombs', which Jean-Michel right now is putting up at his site (I sent it to him, so I can take a little credit for it as well...) and judge for yourself. Hans Ji said some really crazy things. And he died in a very 'unholy' way, slipping on a piece of soap in his bathroom, getting a skull fracture.

Everybody's kinda waiting that Marolyn or one of M's sons eventually will defect - but that hasn't happened yet. The most informed so far to defect was Bob Mishler - read his interview if you haven't already. Luckily for M, Bob died in a helicopter crash shortly after the interview. I always wondered whether a hitman put water in the gasoline tank of the helicopter... But I guess we'll never know.

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 20:35:30 (GMT)
From: Suspicious Mind
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Suspicious helicopter crash
Message:
Dear Happy,

Finally, someone else is suspicious about the helicopter crash. How many people's lives were taken?

Rather a coincidence always felt.

Suspicious Mind

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 21:35:07 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Suspicious Mind
Subject: Suspicious helicopter crash
Message:
This has been discussed online before but not enough.
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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 22:00:43 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Suspicious helicopter crash
Message:
I do not claim to know all the details but this is what I think I recall about his death.

He had an ongoing heart condition. He had a heart attack and was being medievaced by helicopter. He and his pregnant wife were both onboard and all in the helicopter were killed. I could be very wrong here as this is third hand info. But if it is true than it seems unlikely that it was foul play to me. Someone would have had to arrange the heart attack and then know what helicopter it would be to rig to crash. I just don't think that if someone wanted to do him in that is how they would have done it.

One thing that does not ring true about this is the wife being on board. That I know of family members are usually not allowed to fly in these circumstances, though incidents like this could have precipitated such policies.

Certainly though, many premies took this news as proof that people who cross Rawat get what they deserve and it may still yet scare people into silence. But from what I have heard those who know think this was purely a freak accident.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 02:48:19 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Suspicious helicopter crash
Message:
He had an ongoing heart condition. He had a heart attack and was being medievaced by helicopter. He and his pregnant wife were both onboard and all in the helicopter were killed. I could be very wrong here as this is third hand info.

I distinctly recall bb in a previous discussion on the subject of Mishler's death about a year ago, telling us the same story. ( Hopefully I'll get lucky and bb will be able to catch this and chime in on the discussion :)

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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 04:18:54 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: ps: Suspicious helicopter crash
Message:
One thing that does not ring true about this is the wife being on board. That I know of family members are usually not allowed to fly in these circumstances, though incidents like this could have precipitated such policies.

Come to think of it, I recall that according to bb's version of the story his wife survived him, that is she wasn't on board.

But Bob had that 'ongoing' heart condition that you described, ... he was vacationing in the Keys when he had his third heart attack and was to be airlifted to Miami, but the helicopter ambulance taking him there crashed.
That's basically how I recall bb describing it.

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 22:11:45 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Suspicious helicopter crash
Message:
I remember it was hard to get any information about it. AND it was inappropriate to push for more info. After all, it wasn't satsang, service or meditation to discuss. Right?

I also remember the obvious agenda that it was 'grace' or some malevolent version of it, which caused it to happen. People loved to imply that during satsang.

This was right after the family split??? Is my memory right?

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 22:27:48 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Not right after
Message:
The split was in 1974. Premlata was born March 1975 I think. Mishler left in early 1977. His interview on ex premie org was 1979. It says he died a few months later. There was also an interview in the Miami Herald that year as well with Mishler.
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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 19:39:06 (GMT)
From: slackandsteel
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Have they been 'in' on it all along?
Message:
I would beg to differ about your point that all men claiming to be 'gurus' are by definition con artists. I think that some are deluded and actually believe it, so even though what they are offering may be false, they themselves are not intentionally conning people. Certainly from what we've read about Jesus, his intentions do not appear to be about conning people out of money to enhance his personal wealth, etc (though the documentation on Jesus must be considered suspect vis a vis the Church etc).

Although it is said that 'the road to Hell is paved with good intentions', I think it is far worse to knowingly deceive others than to have unwittingly done so because of delusion.

My suspicion is that M and his family have no illusions about their divinity and are operating out of pure greed. They have no history of doing any good works for humanity with all of the money they have taken in, not even a token effort. Their avarice is quite galling.

I do wonder about Hans Ji though. At least there seems to be some evidence that he was a spiritual seeker and sought spiritual guidance from a guru or gurus. Of course at some point he may have realized the opportunity that being a guru would afford him (in terms of wealth and a following) and went down that path with no delusions of spiritual piety, and then handed down the 'family business' to his progeny.

And as for him dying of a fractured skull while slipping on a piece of soap, it's an interesting tidbit but in no way answers any questions about his intentions in the guru biz.

Thanks for your thoughts,

-Bill

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 20:46:22 (GMT)
From: Suspicious
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Have they been 'in' on it all along?
Message:
Dear Happy,

How's life in Iceland? Recently saw a video where M said that his father went into meditation in a room at the ashram (prem nagar - possibly) and 'dropped his body' in a much more 'knowing way' than slipping on soap! (Sounds similar to Thomas Merton, that Christian monk that got electocuted in the shower.) Too bad how these 'Masters' that expound such inspiring (to some) 'drivel or not drivel depending' come to such an unHappy endings the same as us mortals. I wonder how M will go. Almost seems he is going into semi-retirement already at forty-something. Have you abandoned meditation for good yourself Happy?
What do you think about these 22 new Instructors?

Best Regards,

Suspicious Mind


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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 18:45:30 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Suspicious
Subject: soap and helicopter
Message:
Hi there,
I'm not on Iceland, but it sure feels like it sometimes...
The soap story I know for a fact, from people who were/are quite close to M, and I think even PAMs wouldn't deny it. It is so well-known.

It is indeed strange about the 22 instructors. It appears that M is perhaps getting tired, that he needs to delegate more to others. I mean, he is not exactly very successful in spreading his precious K! Hope he would retire forever!

And, about the famous helicopter crash... It was shortly after the radio interview. M knew that Bob could really, really harm him. Sure, it was perhaps just a freak accident as Susan suggests. But it was almost to good to be true. And, if you want to get rid of someone, it has to look as an accident! Otherwise M would have been suspect #1.

But I guess we will never know for sure what happened. But many gurus have done away with critics, Sai Baba, possibly Guru Amma (her brother)... so go and tell.

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 20:26:12 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: slackandsteel
Subject: Have they been 'in' on it all along?
Message:
Bill, I think your assessment is as good as any. I can only speculate, but I image the 'holy family' was laughing their collective asses off about the Jesus, Mary thing.

Marolyn and kids seem to be adhering to the party line. To expose the whole scam would be quite costly to them in materials terms. I suppose they have become accustomed to a lifestyle of such wealth and riches few can even imagine, so I don't believe that they would endanger that.

As far as guru in general, who knows their intentions? Cleary the ones who made it big in the west were scam artists out for the money, sex and power, Maharaji, of course, one of the most decadent and obvious.

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 16:34:32 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: anyone
Subject: to Jerry, Nigel, Scott T. and anyone else
Message:
This post went into 'inactive' soon after I submitted it, perhaps not giving Jerry, Nigel, Scott T and anyone else a chance to respond. It is also related to Jean Michel's booklet posting.

At 'Neural Surfer' I read one of the personal accounts of a man, Iranian, who had become a
devotee of Sai Baba, and it seemed that he was already set-up to be taken in, and that there
was no need to actually hypnotize him per se, although considering his state of
suggestibility, and receptiveness, it's easy to see why he became for a while more and more
deeply under SB's influence. (again I ask about the role of anyones ordinary context in
creating at least the first level of maya, or threshold that needs to be crossed over into a
greater consciousness. There may be a variation in the degree of the control/power trip of
these gurus, but I still believe that it is the same basic principle in play. I'll go back to Rumi,
'Lovers of God have no religion but God alone.' This for me is the fundamental problem
with all forms of religion - they set up a framework where we question or replace our
personal/individual intuition and experience. We may all be on a path towards the One,
but 'Know thyself' seems to be an often repeated first step.

What I retained from what I read of Ram Dass, was that when you are ready for the guru,
he will come to you, ie, it's not really under my control. I have remained open, but
'gurus' have only come to me so far through serendipitously found books, and everyday
people from all walks of life who have shown a special quality of gentle humility and
compassion for others.

I'm noticing that infallibility, or irrefutibility seem to be a popular criteria for 'worshipping'
another man, or nominating one for having achieved 'cosmic consciousness,' if I
understand what Jim, Nigel and Scott are discussing above. This seems, in the final
analysis, a major motivation for many here who first got involved in m's 'knowledge,'
maybe seeking to achieve a comparable kind of superior powers over their fellow
men-reaching an absolute 'thesis' or argument. From Ouspensky p.294:

In ordinary life we think by thesis and antithesis; always and everywhere there is 'yes' or
'no,' 'no or 'yes.' In thinking differently, in thinking in a new way, in thinking by means
of signs of things, I came to understand the fundamental errors of our mental process.
In reality, everywhere and in every case there were not two but three elements. There
were not only 'yes' and 'no,' but 'yes ' and 'no' and something else besides. and it was
precisely the nature of this 'third' element, inaccessible to the understanding, which made
all ordinary reasonings unsuitable and demanded a change in the basic method. I saw that
the solution of all problems always came from a third, unknown, element, that is to
say, it came from a third and unknown side, and that without this third element it was
impossible to arrive at a right solution.

Are you seeking to be right, to find the right, 'irrefutable' position or to understand?

An everyday example of this came through a friend who his a professor in psychology,
specializing in multivariate statistics. Of his editor (of a book on the same topic), he once
said that he looked up to him like God, and asked if I did not feel similarly of someone in
my field. I felt a reflexive shock at his statement, and in response to his question said that
there were many people whom I greatly admire and respect, and even look up to to some
extent, but could never consider as god-like. At a later date, I actually had lunch with this
man and his 'god', and had a wonderful conversation with his editor, learning that
although he might be a 'god of statistics' in some people's minds, that in fact, like myself,
he was far more interested in human interactions than statisically or scientifically proven
'facts. My friend, BTW, was not terribly involved in the conversation, and our friendship
ended abruptly soon after. Those of you who still have a copy of Ouspensky's 'New Model
of the Universe' lying around (sorry, it has been my 'out of the house' reading since before
I began posting here, and it seems to continue synchronistically touching on issues that are
being raised here, which is why I am quoting him so much), check out page 297. In
discussing the experience of feeling at one with Brahma, or Nothing, or 'whatever it is', he
says:

At these moments I even regarded it as strange that we could take upon ourselves so
terrible a responsibility as to bring 'I' into everything and start from 'I' in everything. In
the idea of 'I,' in the sensation of 'I,' such as we ordinarily have, there was something
almost abnormal, a kind of fantastic conceit which bordered on blasphemy, as if each one
of us called himself God. I felt then that only God could call himself 'I,' that only God was
'I.' But we also call ourselves 'I' and do not see and do not notice the irony of it.

'As above, so below,' (Tabula Smaragdina- the Emerald Table of Hermes Trismegistus) does
not suggest to me that we are supposed to aspire to 'above' and deny the validity of 'below.'

I welcome all comments and feedback on my musings.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 11:33:10 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Stonor
Subject: Stuff all gods -especially the human variety..!
Message:
Hi Stonor. (Well, you asked me what I think...)

I agree with Jerry's points. However esoteric or attractive this Ouspensky guy sounds, I can discern neither sense nor science in it. Just some waffle without rationale or starting assumptions beyond this idea that we think in opposites. Big deal! (and, anyway, only true of people who think only in opposites.)

Just a few observations: I don't see 'irrefutability' and 'infallibility' having much in common. Surely 'irrefutable' deals with arguments, while 'infallible' describes either people (re. their powers of judgement) or else a method of doing something (ie. does it always work?). I dislike the former expression (even though I use it) because, in one sense, you can always refute an argument even when your counter-argument is plain wrong. You're still refuting it.

And infallible, too, is meaningless unless failure is defined upfront. I mean M can pass himself off as being beyond fault for the simple reason he never stated '...and if I haven't brought peace to half the planet in half my lifetime, then you can call me a failure and have your donations back...'

But applying all this to 'truth': I believe there are hard facts about the universe but that nobody yet has access to all of them. Therefore, we either stop speculating or accept our speculations will at times be found wanting. For me the important thing is for the person propounding a theory to state their assumptions and be honest about the limits of their understanding and - especially - to avoid leading others astray when it serves their own self-aggrandisement. In my experience, all would-be mystics who speak authoritatively about 'it all' invariably breach this basic honesty test.

Separate point: why should it be surprising that the stats wizard should be more interested in human interactions? I teach stats to psychology students (no god-like genius, unfortunately!) and I too am far more interested in human interactions. Stats, for me, is body of methods which allows us to test our speculations about all sorts of phenomena including human interactions. Put to the service of some useful cause statistics can be priceless; for their own sake they are meaningless. (I always hated that phrase 'cold and calculating' - how come you never hear 'warm and calculating'?!)

But what is that last passage all about? Ouspensky sits alone and decides that nobody but God should call themselves 'I', and to call oursleves 'I' is blasphemy. What is this?! I reckon the guy is quite possibly mad. I won't get started about Gurdjieff - but I think he was full of crap too.

Forgive my disrespectful tone, Stonor, but stuff like this winds me up somewhat, not least because I used to take it all so damn seriously and am embarrassed by the memory!

Cheers,
Nige

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 18:53:51 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: to Jerry, Nigel, Scott T. and anyone else
Message:
There were not only 'yes' and 'no,' but 'yes ' and 'no' and something else besides. and it was precisely the nature of this 'third' element, inaccessible to the understanding, which made all ordinary reasonings unsuitable and demanded a change in the basic method. I saw that the solution of all problems always came from a third, unknown, element, that is to say, it came from a third and unknown side, and that without this third element it was impossible to arrive at a right solution.

This is kind of vague, isn't it? What could he possibly mean by a third element? He says it's there, whatever it is, and it decides for us. But he hasn't the slightest idea what it is. He says it's beyond understanding. Well, he seems to understand that it makes our decisions for us. Still, he has no idea what it is. I don't know what it is, either, or what he's talking about. This makes no sense to me. Does it to you?

Are you seeking to be right, to find the right, 'irrefutable' position or to understand?

What's the difference? If you understand, than you've found the right, irrefutable position.

At these moments I even regarded it as strange that we could take upon ourselves so terrible a responsibility as to bring 'I' into everything and start from 'I' in everything. In the idea of 'I,' in the sensation of 'I,' such as we ordinarily have, there was something almost abnormal, a kind of fantastic conceit which bordered on blasphemy, as if each one of us called himself God. I felt then that only God could call himself 'I,' that only God was
'I.' But we also call ourselves 'I' and do not see and do not notice the irony of it.

I've never been able to grasp what this philosophy is about. It's outside the realm of my experience. If there's something there, it's in a realm of consciousness I've never known, although as a student of Maharaji I have aspired toward it. Never did get there.

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 22:07:05 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Guirdjeef's Music/Alpert revisited zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Message:
Just one note on stuff you posted to me in the same previous thread:

Your stuff-
>>Not all of Gurdjieff's 'Sacred Music' that I've heard so far seems to do that much for me either, but one piece, 'Holy Trinity,' has motivated me to plan to buy the sheet music and learn how to play it, so that I can experience it more fully, after not having really played the piano in about 30 years. There is another piece Rosenthal played on Tapesty which was filled with an exquisite anguish that I also want to play (almost the other's opposite), but unfortunately I haven't been able to identify it yet. Apparently this 'Sacred Music' is based on the harmonics of the octave.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

My response:
Gurdjieef's music is OK but don't give any creedence to the hype he tried to associate with it. It is simple stuff and commonplace by current standards. Lots of eastern music follows a roughly comparable structural basis (as does raga) with one scale, one rhythm and some melodic/feeling basis. That's about all you'll find with those pieces. If you want to play them, have fun.

As far as some of this other stuff you're bringing up here, I mentioned that Ouspensky really doesn't do much for me (and that I was reading him within the last few months- it happened to be that same books).

I really dislike Alpert aka Ram Dass. I kinda wish there was an anti-Alpert site. So, how that goes, if he said it, I'm not surprised if it's wrong. In this case, tragically wrong for many people here (who thought they had met their deathless guru in part because Ram Dass had told them they could).

I met Alpert a couple of times and thought he would have some kind of intelligent input. He knew I was an ex-premie- this was the early 80's.

But he was just doing his own guru trip and that's all there was to it, picking up a few thousand $$$ for 1 or 2 days work. Whatever got him through the situation as smoothly as possible was what he was going to do. It's the spiritual Chinese food syndrome. It seemed interesting and fulfilling .. but left me feeling emptier.. for months or years.

.

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 17:00:41 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Guirdjeef's Music - not Herb Alpert then?
Message:
In 'Meetings with Remarkable Men', didn't Gurdjieff site the music meetings where the winner was the musician who sent everybody to sleep?

P.S. - you say Richard Alpert was a PREMIE???

Really???

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 17:36:19 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Herb Alpert to me, man
Message:
Alpert set a lot of premies up with his doctrine of the the satguru's absolutely knowledge and authority in your life- I was one of those people who had to experience what was written in _Be Here Now_.

I guess Philip Glass would win, huh?

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 17:42:46 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Philip Glass? - no, Gurdjieff. (nt)
Message:
Philip Glass? - no, Gurdjieff. (nt)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 21:11:22 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Guirdjeef's Music/Alpert revisited zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Message:
Greetings Runamok,

Your additional post somewhat surprised me. I tossed out a bit more 'stuff' to you because you mentioned that you might check out the interview.

I apologize if some of what I have written irritates you. That we seem to differ somewhat in our perspectives could be due to the fact that we are two different individuals. I won't bore you further.

Stonor

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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 23:25:51 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Yes Alpert really presses my buttons
Message:
but maybe I'll get over it.

You might like William James, _The Varieties of Religious Experience_, especially since you like the end section (biographies) in the Bucke.

Try some other people besides Ouspensky or Alpert and you might spark my interest.

In evolution, you may find Gould more interesting.

Peace

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 01:40:18 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Yes Alpert really presses my buttons
Message:
Thanks for the recommendations! But why do you assume I especially liked the biographies? - I've hardly read them! I may not have an ADD, but I do scan some things for certain details and I know how to find the general gist and conclusions in well organized books. I have read a bit of the Gould/Dawkins debate, but check my most recent post - it's not of that much relevance to me. (But that doesn't negate my promise to Jim) Actually, now that I think of it, I came across an interesting article in some magazine about William James' experiments with nitrous oxide, if I'm not mistaken. What I found most interesting about it was that it was published in a popular mainstream magazine.

BTW, and not that it isn't elsewhere, the Hermes quote came from Anonymous (Meditations on the Tarot - A Journey into Hermeticism), and he goes into it in much greater depth than I've read elsewhere - and I'm not particularly into the Tarot! or 'Churchianity'! (which it is not either), but if you ever get a chance to flip through it you'll realize what a fascinatingly comprehensive, erudite, inspired (and for me, reassuring and practical, among many other things) book it is.

OK, now I k now you must be really turned off by all of that unbalanced enthusiasm - sorry. (can't help my current reading - it kind of just happens)

I want to go buy a beer or something (and get some dinner) - after finishing that last post, I'm fried! I still have to post a bit more on another thread, and I've got to start my vegetable seeds this weekend too!

My supper is heating now (and I can't post), so I'll mention where I got the term 'Churchianity' from. IMO another 'comprehensive' etc. series of books published by Lucis, by AA Bailey/Djwal Khul (sp?) A friend mentioned them to me, but I didn't get around to reading them until about 10 years later - and I haven't read all of them! They have a wonderful intro (Extract from a Statement by the Tibetan) which includes 'The books that I have written are sent out with no claim for their acceptance. They may, or may not, be correct, true and useful. It is for you to ascertain their truth by right practice and by the exercise of the intuition.' And, 'If the teaching conveyed calls forth a response from the illumined mind of the worker in the world, and brings a flashing forth of of his intuition, then let that teaching be accepted. But not otherwise. It the statements meet with eventual corroboration, or are deemed true under the test of the Law of Correspondences, then that is well and good. But should this not be so, let not the student accept what is said.' (Now let's see if I can post)

Hope that none of this has inadvertantly pushed any more buttons! (I don't seem to have a very good track record on this at all)

Peace... and Love

Stonor

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 02:45:34 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Bailey
Message:
Bailey is in the 'Blavatsky, etc.' category. I don't take it even vaguely seriously. Those borderline racist teachings continued with the same talk of root-races even in the post-WWII era. I guess Steiner has a moment or two in between his deluded 'memories' of everyone's past lives and his own.

Bailey is a special anti-hero for anti-cultists. As I recall, she was the one who got Krishnamurti started on his avatar track-which he rejected as an adult. The guy who raised him is probably more interesting and he was one of those authors- can't remember if it was Ledbetter or what.

I can't believe a word of Alice Bailey, honestly. I got rid of some of her stuff too (spring cleaning came in winter).

I do meditate and I am interested in eastern stuff, so you may yet find something of interest to me.

I can't say I feel like reading James but he sounds lucid skimming through his stuff.

Peace

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 03:53:47 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Bailey
Message:
I figured that would probably be your reaction, and I don't talk about these books often, but what the hell.

Nonetheless, if you read more carefully, they are not 'rascist', in fact, DK (not Bailey) makes it quite clear on that question. And 'they' at least work much more at synthesis, and its significance now, than most out there. How much or what have you read of their work? BTW, I only read my first book, The Rays and Initiations (which I had to read many times before much of it began to make much sense to me), when it 'came to me' second-hand. I've since actually bought two of 'their' books (the only books or anything I've ever bought one the net), Education in the New Age, and A Compilation on Sex.

But I'm DROPPING the topic, for now, at least with you - no need to respond.

The Krishnamurti path is quite interesting, don't you think? Haven't gotten around to 'really' reading the one book I have of his yet, Education and the Significance of Life. I saw a movie of him a while ago, and it included a TV interview. He basically showed how lost the two interviewers were and they didn't get it at all - unreal the difference in consciousness, right there in the good old black and white. And he also finally broke free of their trip. (Is there ANY hope for m?)

But what are you reading that's inspiring YOU now? What are you living/experiencing that gives you a spark to keep interacting with the rest of the world? I'm not talking about what I find interesting, but about what YOU find interesting. Hmmmmmm?

With a smile on my face, and I won't read your next post until I've finished my response to G.

Stonor

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 17:04:10 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Theosophists
Message:
Hi, Stonor,

Have you yet come across the works of Alvin Boyd Kuhn?

Might interest you.

(then again...)

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 22:48:19 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Theosophists?
Message:
Yes, I have - I've got a bookmark on him. I never really considered this type of thing 'Theosophy,' but maybe that's because I never got intothe Theosophists much. Most of the books I read are ones which reflect somewhat my intuition. I started around age 9 or 10 looking for 'original truth' in fairy tales/fables, then moved on to mythology, tried archaelogy - but it was boring at the level available then. I've read Churchward and lots of other related works, following the threads. Thing is, there's not much time, and I have a lot of other work to get done before one of those mortal things says 'Times up!' I kind of trust I've got the gist, and read as things come along. I also hate reading off the screen, etc. Anything more specific you'd like to direct me to?

Analogy/correspondences seems to be a key, doesn't it?

BTW, I really appreciated your Journey, particularly the reference to 'Hitler' from your son. I had been thinking outloud with a friend about 'cult' dynamics and charismatic leaders, using him and Ghandi/Luther King as dichotomous examples. And then I found Mr. Natural!

Are you into Kuhn and such? And I liked Koyaanisqatsi (though not crazy about Glass) Why does he keepcoming up in these contexts? Someone let me in on the secret, please.

Stonor

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 06:47:23 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: PS to cq on Kuhn and analogy
Message:
I can only scan Kuhn a bit. didn't someone post this a couple of weeks ago commenting that it ran on a bit repetitiously but had something of interest?

If you are at all interested in these types of concepts, or anything even vaguely along these lines, I sincerely recommend again 'Meditations on the Tarot, A Journey into Christian Hermeticism' by Anonymous - Element Inc., originally written in French and completed and published post-humously in 1967. It is currently out of print, but will be re-printed within the next few months.

It is not about 'reading' Tarot cards in the sense most people would assume. Anonymous integrates the Upanishads, the Cabbala, Nietzsche, Plotinus, Bergson, Plato, Keynes, . . . and on and on. It is an inclusive, rather than exclusive book . His discussion of the role that logic plays in philosophy and science demonstrates the importance of analogy. I have a bit of trouble with the Catholic references, but he emphasizes the importance of the building of churches and some of the 'saints', without excusing the horrors that the Catholic Church has unleased. It is a practical book, as opposed to theoretical. I ate it whole (~650 pages) in a few weeks last fall. It's a dense book to read and digest properly. I'm only on the third letter since I started re-reading it.

I promise that I will not mention it again here.

Stonor

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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 21:39:16 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Please excuse the delay
Message:
Hi Jim,

Thanks for your always straight-forward and sincere responses (see inactive thread). Just for you I will make an effort in the near future to at least check out a library for a copy of Dawkin's book (I love exceptions to the rule - in this case my general one - especially when someone gives me the room to make the decision myself!). I promise that I'll get back to you on it .

I tend to agree with you on your main point (depending on your definition of 'guru -types', I worry out over-generalizations) - anyone who claims to have 'achieved God-consciousness' is deluding themselves, and in the worst case scenario, many others as well are drawn into the lie.

(But sometimes we catch a glimmer or sense of a 'bigger picture' than our everyday 'I' is usually conscious of - don't you feel 'it', on a particularly joyful spring day, for example?)

Stonor

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 04:12:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: I feel nothing
Message:
(But sometimes we catch a glimmer or sense of a 'bigger picture' than our everyday 'I' is usually conscious of - don't you feel 'it', on a particularly joyful spring day, for example?)

Stonor,

Your curiosity and enthusiasm is admirable. For me, Dawkins was like paint stripper.

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 04:28:32 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Don't give me that shit
Message:
We'll talk later.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 21:41:10 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: anyone
Subject: message above to Jim (nt)
Message:
sorry I didn't post more clearly
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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 00:40:25 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Everyone in thread +
Subject: General response-they basically overlap+birds!
Message:
Thank you for your responses. I always prefer honesty to a false 'politeness', and no one has tread on any 'holier-than-thou' ground or sensibilities, but I do appreciate your concern, Nigel.

It is almost always problematic to quote out of context - a short blurb can't possibly give you the full picture, which is why I couched it at one point in 'Those of you who still have a copy of Ouspensky lying around...' Nonetheless, I neither expect nor encourage anyone to read 'A New Model of the Universe,' and this is not at all the only source where I have come across discussions of these experiences or ideas. In fact, if something I read does not relate to some of my personal interests, experiences, or intuitions, I usually don't find much in it 'talks' to me, much that is practical. I also should add that I like anything that stimulates me to think and reflect. My guess is that some of what I posted contained one or more of these aspects for you in some way, or you simply would not have bothered to read it or post a response. For your convenience, I'm including those quotes here.

In ordinary life we think by thesis and antithesis; always and everywhere there is 'yes' or
'no,' 'no or 'yes.' In thinking differently, in thinking in a new way, in thinking by means
of signs of things, I came to understand the fundamental errors of our mental process.
In reality, everywhere and in every case there were not two but three elements. There
were not only 'yes' and 'no,' but 'yes ' and 'no' and something else besides. and it was
precisely the nature of this 'third' element, inaccessible to the understanding, which made
all ordinary reasonings unsuitable and demanded a change in the basic method. I saw that
the solution of all problems always came from a third, unknown, element, that is to
say, it came from a third and unknown side, and that without this third element it was
impossible to arrive at a right solution.

I do think, at least in general, that our first reaction to many things is a yes/no, an accept/reject, like/dislike, go/stop, etc. That is more or less how you begin and end your response Nigel, but you acknowledge that this has much to do with your past experiences of these ideas, particularly within the context of the 'm' trip, as do others. I think I understand that somewhat now, whereas when I first began reading my reactions to 'ex-premie anger' were more extreme, this has been somewhat tempered by reading your Journeys and postings, and even more so by getting to know you through interacting with you in this forum. This is an example, I believe, of what Ouspensky is describing in the first quote. Another might be those times when confronted with a seemingly 'impossible' task or insurmountable challenge, but somehow, someway, we often achieve our goal, sometimes with the unexpected help of someone who cares - even a stranger. And so on. For me, at least, when I 'understand', I am not necessarily either right nor wrong, but have expanded my consciousness in some minute way. (Did you know that some scientific study shows that the chemicals released in our brain when we learn something new are exactly the same as those released when we have an orgasm?)

I also do see a relationship between the concept of 'infallibilty' and 'irrefutability.' According to a dictionary, 'infallibilty' means 'freedom from error' and 'irrefutability' means that 'it cannot be disproved,' ie. that there is no error in the argument or thesis. But this was not the point of my mentioning these terms. Scott T, in his post posting further thoughts seems to identify quite well the possible 'impossibility' of resolving the apparently(?) conflicting evolutionist/creationist theories, for example. (Thanks for exploring the space-in-between further Scott!) Think fuzzy logic a bit - these kind of 'absolute'ly-irrelevant-to-our everyday existence discussions lead where? Although I have read in other books that in fact, science will ultimately prove the existence of 'whatever-it-is,' Scott may well have already put it in the proverbial nutshell. All 'Towards the One' (P.V. Kahn?) and One for all, whatever the path. In a general way, western science does seem to have provided the needed counterbalance to the the 'mindless' sacrifice of individual human beings into the 'bliss' of just 'being.'

The second quote:

At these moments I even regarded it as strange that we could take upon ourselves so
terrible a responsibility as to bring 'I' into everything and start from 'I' in everything. In
the idea of 'I,' in the sensation of 'I,' such as we ordinarily have, there was something
almost abnormal, a kind of fantastic conceit which bordered on blasphemy, as if each one
of us called himself God. I felt then that only God could call himself 'I,' that only God was
'I.' But we also call ourselves 'I' and do not see and do not notice the irony of it.

The second de-contextualized quote does not suggest to me in any way that 'Ouspensky sits alone and decides that nobody but God should call themselves 'I'.' If so he would be instantly contradicting himself, as he discusses (paradoxically?) the subjectiveness of his experiences. He says 'At these moments' of feeling, (not knowing) what could be called 'joy' or 'wonder' or 'awe' at the greatness and unfathomably alive interconnectedness of 'whatever-it-is' (I hope that my somewhat intuitive synopsizing is acceptable) led him to these fleeting feelings.

This quote was largely aimed at the IMO generally deluded 'gurus' such as m, who claim to have achieved 'God consciousness' and even, as m did at least at one point on his stumbling path (not that we don't all seem to stumble at times) claim to be 'God.'

On the same topic, but a nice tangent for this time of year, from The National Post (21/2/2000) via my sister:

Credit goes to the birds for classical sound of music (excerpts)

Some of the best-loved works of classical music by Mozart, Hayden, Schubert and Bach appear to have been plagiarized--from birds. Music historians have known for centuries that blackbirds, quails and starlings inspired the great composers. But new recordings of birds singing in the forest suggest key fragments of such symphonies as Beethoven's Violin Concerto in D Major are lifted note for note from birdsongs.

Dr. Baptista, who has recorded thousands of bird species singing, told the American Association for the Advancement of Science conference yesterday there are dozens of prominent examples of animals inspiring musical genius. 'Vivaldi wrote a wonderful flute concerto called Il Cardellino' that used goldfish sounds.

Scientists who study bird language say birds do not merely repeat what they hear. They compose original songs using techniques we think of as uniquely human, such as the sonata style of exposition, development and recapitulation. The hermit thrush sings in the pentatonic scale used in Chinese and Japanese music, while others compose in the chromatic scale, such as the American composer Aaron Copeland.

' Just when we thought humans were so brilliant with our music, we find we are truly integrated into our world,' said Patricia Gray of the U.S. National Musical Arts, who heads a project called Biomusic, which explores the links between animal and human music.

In much the same way Scottish clans passed down pipe music over generations, birds use oral history to keep songs alive. The tunes are not inherited in the genes, said Dr. Baptista. When a songbird is raised in a sound-proof box in a laboratory, it will sing 'nonsense' all its life.

No man is an 'I'land, except maybe 'Mirajiland'

Stonor


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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 19:12:54 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Parrots' intelligence and language
Message:
See:

Conversing with parrots at ABC News.

Parrots often score as well as chimps at USA Today.

Interiew with a parrot at Scientific American.

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 20:37:08 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: evolution through love?
Message:
Those are some fun clips! What spurred you onto that thread of research?

Ok, a quote in return from Anon. dicussing the shield held by the Empress (III-Marseilles Deck) - it reminds me a bit of someof the work people have done with various animals (and human beings too)

It is this same emblem - the shield with the eagle - that Papus had in mind in actual fact, when he defined magic as:

The application of the strengthened human will to accelerate the evolution of the living forces of nature. (Papus, Traite methodique de magie practique, Paris, 3rd edition, p. 10

He preceded this definition by another:

Magic is the science of love.

That's all for now!
Open call to flame throwers!

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 22:36:23 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: parrots research
Message:
Those are some fun clips! What spurred you onto that thread of research?

I previously happened upon 'Conversing with parrots' at work while looking at the news on the web. A co-worker has a parrot. When my co-worker got a parrot at a store and was taking apart the cage, the other parrot said 'What are you doing?'

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 04:02:12 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Re: only an illusion of 'ooga booga'
Message:
Hi G,

I hope my general post responded somewhat to your comments, but we seem to see eye to eye on this 'not a question of black and white' stuff - that's the area between the thesis/antithesis etc. - that's the third element - the grey area in between. Nothing complicated or 'ooga-booga' (as one of my friends used to say) about that, is there?

It's m who created the complications for you - that's one of the reasons why you left, isn't it? You are more advanced than him, as far as I'm concerned. It was not even a question of 'the blind leading the blind,' but rather of the blind pretending to lead the sighted.

You mention Bach. Do you not feel, when you listen to certain music, that there is beauty and wonder in the world, that you are experiencing something almost other-worldly, transporting you beyond the everyday? Good music of many kinds has always done this for me.

I remember sitting at a downtown cafe one day, reading the Epic of Gilgamesh - a book that was found and translated only in this century, that had lain for 4 to 6(?) thousand years in a king's library, inscribed on clay tablets in ancient Sumerian cuneiform, a book with a slightly different and expanded version of Noah's Ark. I had that feeling then, as well. That the world is filled with wonder and miracle, and this was but a fraction of the wisdom of the collective human race's efforts over many millennia. No one source has the whole truth and nothing but the truth (except whatever-it-is?), and a human being can only catch a glimmer of the whole, and act accordingly. In my opinion you are doing just that. Keep on keeping on! You're on the perfect path for you and you alone, as each of us is, even m (but I'm glad I'm not him, aren't you?)

Stonor

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 19:57:30 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Music
Message:
You mention Bach. Do you not feel, when you listen to certain music, that there is beauty and wonder in the world, that you are experiencing something almost other-worldly, transporting you beyond the everyday? Good music of many kinds has always done this for me.

Yes, some music has that effect on me. I've been very into classical for a couple of years, some of it sounds 'transcendent'. I especially like piano concertos, I've been learning piano (actually a Roland keyboard with a piano-like feel) for a couple of years. I've been getting back into listening to more rock 'n roll, blues, and jazz lately.

I remember in my fanatical heyday someone asked me what music I listened to, I said 'devotional music'. They just looked at me. Well, I didn't convert them.

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 21:11:50 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Music
Message:
You're one step ahead of me. If I want to play the piano I'll have to head over to my sister's. Did you play at all when you were young? I know there's still some of it in my fingers, but it will be interesting to see how I do.

I have a friend in her 60s/70s out in BC who's taken it up for the first time. One night she called and was so excited about her breakthrough that she had me listen to her over the phone!

For the ignorant, could you define 'devotional' music? I listen to some Gregorian chants when the time is right, but I think you're referring to something a little different.

Were you really 'a true lover' up above - mighty convincing - I guess it was a bit cathartic. Good fire and brimstone on a Sunday for the unfaithful. Maybe you missed your true calling ;-)

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Date: Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 22:31:04 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Piano, 'A True Lover'
Message:
I played a little when young but I was terrible, never had lessons. Now I'm ok, a little beyond beginner.

'Devotional music' for me was premie songs sung in devotion to Guru Maharaj Ji. It was the only music I listened to for years. I thought it was by far the best music in the world, why listen to anything else?

The sad thing about 'A True Lover' is that in many ways, I was like that, at least in terms of the rationalisation of Rawat's behavior, and in some other ways. Oh, I wanted to be a mahatma all right, I had lots of ego.

He actually talked about restoring cars as if he was restoring us. He was very blatant about it. It's a con trick. Tell a big enough of a lie and people will think you couldn't possibly be making it up.

And the part about the old house leaking and the kids needed their own rooms, guess what? They were actually presented as reasons for the new mansion. This was at a meeting where money was asked for, conducted by people in Elan Vital, but made to seem unofficial (they even said they were operating this way). They were very proud about the whole thing, the heated marble floors for his tootsies, the fancy automatic retractible windows in his bedroom, etc. There was a video (made by whom, paid for at whose expense?) showing him on a tractor, oh so humbly doing some token 'service', helping out in the excavation for his own new mansion. Even then it turned me off. I didn't contribute.

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Date: Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 00:34:00 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Piano, 'A True Lover'
Message:
Quickly before this thread goes into inactive, thanks for your answers.

I didn't expect 'devotional music' to have such a narrow definition, but then, at this point I shouldn't be surprised. The more I learn about m the more it amazes me how he's still getting people to go along with his trip.

And I'm glad to hear that your piano is coming along. It gave me great joy to play, and I was quite good at it too. I miss it a lot. I hope that one day I'll be able to have a piano in my own life again. I know keyboards are improving, but I'm not sure I would compromise. I remember the first exam I wrote. The piano was a Yamaha upright, and although I was very nervous, the moment my hands touched the keys there was nothing in the room except me and that piano. Exam? What examiner? I was playing the most beautiful piano my fingers had ever had the privilege to touch.

When I went to that Gurjieff concert last week, I went early so that I could get a seat where I could see the pianist's face and his fingers touching the keys (my kind of vicarious thrills).

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Date: Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 01:19:08 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Pianos and keyboards
Message:
The keyboard I have is better than a mediocre piano, but there are things missing, mainly the resonance of the sound board, lingering sounds, overtones. I have a sustain pedal, but it's not the same. So something like Chopin just isn't the same. Individual sounds are excellent and very varied. The touch is very good, it's pressure sensitive, but the feel is not as good as a very fine piano. I tried a Steinway in a store one time, boy I wish I could afford one and have room for it. Of course, I'm not that good anyway, but still.
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Date: Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 02:59:32 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Pianos and keyboards
Message:
Thanks for the detailed evaluation. Sounds like it could be an acceptable option at this point - when I have the cash, of course!
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Date: Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 03:14:15 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Pianos and keyboards
Message:
The one I have is a very good Roland, it cost over two grand, so it isn't cheap. Still, less expensive than a good piano.
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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 02:57:54 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: ok then!
Message:
Interesting comments- more interesting than Ouspensky was your interpretation of same.

I don't believe in the ultimate importance of my own opinion. Making a judgement doesn't seem essential in the learning process. I don't mind learning conflicting/opposing concepts as long as I'm learning.

Unless I have to make a decision (the best way to fix my car or if I should join a strike), I prefer to leave my opinion open.

I'll let the birds fly freely for the moment, but you might like to hear Olivier Messiaen's various works based on bird calls (or his text in French including numerous bird transcriptions). However, Charlie 'the Bird' Parker also should be mentioned, but then don't forget Hitchcock!

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 05:05:12 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Hitchcock did cross my mind
Message:
Your response is likewise interesting. There's a lot in the interpretation, isn't there? - that's one of the usually 'grey' areas. as O acknowledges, it is virtually impossible to transmit thes experiences through 'word', and his effort is IMO a sincere, humble and at least for me, a fruitful one.

Re Hitchcock: such is the power of mediated/collectively projected reality combined with the 'suspension of disbelief' necessary to view a film/video etc. But this is not the reality, is it really? The crows moving downtown here a couple of years ago I did take as some kind of sign, though of what I'm not yet entirely sure at all - more transitional grey?

And yes, I would really like to hear Olivier Messiaen's various works based on bird calls (or his text in French including numerous bird transcriptions), now that I've heard about them - so I will seek these out in the future - thanks!. How he transcribed them is also of great interest to me. And as far as Charlie Parker goes, I'll put on Phoebe Snow next, for her reference to him (I almost played her earlier - but it wasn't late enough).

Today, the expression 'Make my day,' of course a la Clint Eastwood's spin (each to his own), came up in class. But I turned it around to the original meaning of something that makes you feel good all day. I told them, among other examples, of two cardinals, whose red flashed magically back and forth, diving, weaving and soaring back and forth, together in unison, through five small suburban backyards, mine in the middle, a couple of years ago. It 'made my day' for weeks and years - always.

I'm looking forward to your answers to my explicit questions in the post above. Perhaps this reference to Messiaen's work is one of your answers.

Stonor

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 05:59:46 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: djrayovac@aol.com
To: Stonor
Subject: Covert Questioning
Message:
I guess you would make a little more sense in person. You're way of speaking is a bit 'covert'. It's not just that Ouspensky required your interpretation, it's also that there are plenty of ways to skin a cat.

I used to spend so much time reading esoteric philosophy as a premie, that I can hardly stomach it with rare exceptions. It is odd that I had actually tossed a couple of the books included in your discussions very recently (and a book by Bailey too- the Bucke, the Ouspensky, and a Bailey at random).

Bailey's writings seem too culturally distant to be of much interest for the limited clarity they might offer, but go for it if you like. I do think that most of the occultists were racist but as a cultural bias. I can't say that reading Bailey describing the karmic burden of the Jews (written after WWII) did much for my opinion of her in terms of racism. Karma can be a very racist, reactionary doctrine and hers is a case in point.

I'm more stimulated by the arts in different forms and much of my reading is about art. I do like investigating science as a weekend venture much the way others are weekend musicians or artists. I've been listening to a CD of works by Lou Harrison that is pretty impressive but most of the work is about 20 years old.

Drop me a line if you like, Stonor.

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 06:30:28 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Questioning
Message:
Actually, Anonymous's work addresses the question of 'racism' far more equinanimously (sp/ inter?) than any other I have read, but apart from that, blah blah blah, who cares anyways anymore, except the less conscious? and there is no judgement at my end.

I haven't heard of Lou Harrison, but oddly enough, my old film professor who directed the film about Bucke, is John Harrison.

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 00:08:10 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: stuff and nonsense
Message:
Sorry - didn't address your response properly - was getting tired and the beer was taking its toll.

Lucky you've tossed those books - saves you the trouble of deciding whether or not to look into them again (not to mention even doing it! ;o)

I do rememeber what you're talking about re: Bailey's Jewish reference . It didn't sit well with me either, but I was more interested in the other elements. It was not a large part of the book I was reading, and I think s/he also spoke of other 'national karmas' as well. Your comment 'Karma can be a very racist, reactionary doctrine and hers is a case in point,' is most valid - thanks.

I checked out Lou Harrison on the web. Sounds pretty interesting. Wish
I wasn't so short of money right now - I'd like to hear some of it.

And what do you mean, 'I guess you would make a little more sense in person?' I guess I'll have to try harder!

(How did I do this time?)

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 15:57:19 (GMT)
From: slackandsteel
Email: slackandsteel@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: I'm new here, but a premie from the old days
Message:
Greetings to you all!!

I've been lurking around this site for a few days working up my nerve to finally post and thank all of you for everything I've seen at this site. I had no idea that there was such an active community of ex-premies, websites etc. Last time a checked (a few years ago?) I found very little on the web about Guru Maharaji and the DLM (I didn't know about EV).

So here's my story in a nutshell:

I'm 18 years old, the year is 1971, and I'm away from home (L.A.) in my first semester of college at Sonoma State in California. I see an intriguing poster for a program about a 13-year old living master and decide to attend. Turns out to be a small group of really nice folks, one in particular who I really take a shine to (Maharaji dubbed her 'Mini Sai Baba' because she had an afro and looked a bit like a mini version of Satya Sai Baba). I start to hang a bit with these people, and then Mahatma Rajeswar comes to town and I receive Knowledge after an all-night brainwashing session. I'm blissed out now :-) I start going to satsang all the time etc. I'm a premie! I now know everything and am not afraid to tell anyone I meet about the Perfect Knowledge etc. You know the drill.

I continued my studies while attending satsangs, going to San Francisco to see his holiness etc. My first big program was in Montrose, Colorado. I forget what it was called, but I loved it.
Must have been a few thousand of us there.

Later that year I chucked school and went on the jumbo jet pilgrimage to India. Stayed in the ashram in New Delhi and Hardwar (Prem Nagar) for a month with a few thousand other premies with mild to intense cases of gastric distress, using the 'lota' (cup) of water instead of toilet paper, then disinfecting our (left) hand in a drum full of some kind of purple stuff. I loved it all! I was holy!

Back to school, more satsang, lots of meditation, and then the Houston Astrodome Millenium Festival. That's where it really began to fall apart for me. Even though I'd dug on the pictures of Maharaji wearing the Krishna crown, I was nauseated to see him in it at the Astrodome. The whole thing seemed so surreal, and all of it a ploy for his and his family's personal gain. After Millenium, I wasn't too keen on satsang anymore and was meditating less. Then when the family broke up, and Maharaji
married the stewardess, I was finished. It was difficult to take down the small altar with his picture, but I couldn't look at it anymore. This must have been about 1974 or so.

It's interesting to look back at those days (though painful) and ask myself the question 'What could I have been thinking?'. I realize I was caught up in the times and the 'glamour' of having a guru (though he wasn't much of one). I've always been heavily into music (guitar playing) and my hero, John McLaughlin, had a guru (Sri Chinmoy) so I figured I needed one too (kind of like jazz musicians who start shooting heroin because their idols did and they think it will make them play better). I was also kind of lost, and liked being the part of something that looked to me like it was going to revolutionize humanity.

But I always had doubts. Maharaji himself was so uncharismatic that I laugh when I hear people say he was or is. It's total projection on their part. His speeches were inane, and he seemed so removed from everyone and uninvolved. Plus, he didn't even meditate, and only seemed to be interested in self-gratifying activities, such as eating, diddling around on a synthesizer (he had no talent, and neither did his 'genius' brother Bhole Ji!), buying fancy cars etc. I remember when he got an ulcer. I think the doctor said it was from drinking too much Coke. An ulcer at 14! That's really saying something.

It's pretty embarrasing to admit to friends that I was once a follower of the fat boy and worshipped him as God, and kissed his feet. I mean, of all the guru con-artists, he's arguably the most laughable. I hate to say it, but Dad was right about this one! :-)

Hard to believe he's still at it and still gets new converts and more wealth.

Bye for now,

-Bill (alive and well in Santa Cruz, CA, and guru-free)

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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 14:21:56 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: slackandsteel
Subject: The Ulcer
Message:
I remember Maharaji's ulcer - it was big news at the time. I am embarrassed to remember I believed the story of the ulcer being caused by him taking on the suffering of the world.

John

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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 04:00:37 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: slackandsteel
Subject: welcome SlacknSteel! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 23:48:23 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: slacker
Subject: I'm new here, but a premie from the old days
Message:
welcome to the party Slacker. It sounds like you've been away from the cult for a while and have had a life in between, that's good. Mind you, even after a long time away it can still sting a bit when you discover this place.

I started reading these pages about this time last year and suffered a lot of psychological difficulties for several months after. I got a lot of encouragement from these pages and thankfully feel much better today.

Charlie

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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 00:44:01 (GMT)
From: slackandsteel
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: I'm new here, but a premie from the old days
Message:
Charlie, thanks for the kind words.

I can relate to those psychological feelings you are talking about. I lurked around here (and related sites) for several weeks and during much of the time felt pretty depressed and yet 'morbidly fascinated' (as Gregg would say) with it all. I had a long talk about it with my wife, who never was, and never could be, a premie. It helped a lot to get it all out.

Coincidentally, last night as I was in that stage of not quite deep sleep (shortly upon retiring), I had a very lucid dream and heard 'celestial music' that was far more satisfying than any I'd heard back in my premie days when I stuck my fingers in my ears. This music was atonal, but had a deep, bell-like resonance. No, I did not associate that blissful dream with M, but it probably appeared as a result of my mind's preoccupation with this subject of late.

Mahalo,

-Bill

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 17:20:38 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: slackandsteel
Subject: Definitely Journeys material (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 16:10:22 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: slackandsteel
Subject: Howdy Bill !!!
Message:
Great story! Have you seen the 'journeys' section of the website? I definitely think your post fits the criteria of a 'journey' and with your permission, I'm sure Brian would add it to our permanent collection.

Good on ya and what are you doing these days?

I was a premie in Harrisburg, Pittsburg, San Fransisco and Lake Tahoe.

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 16:09:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: slackandsteel
Subject: Nice to hear from you
Message:
Yeah, that ulcer. I wish I'd heard about the coke; instead I only go the standard taking-on-premies-karma explanation (as per Ramakrishna's cancer). But good to hear from you, Bill.

By the way, did you ever know a guy named Dave Wener in Santa Cruz some time in '73 when Parlokanand was there?

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 18:21:14 (GMT)
From: slackandsteel
Email: None
To: Jim Everyone
Subject: Nice to hear from you
Message:
Thanks for the welcome and advice to submit my story to
the Journey section, which I've done now.

In answer to your question about Dave Wener, no, I didn't know
him or Parlokanand. I wasn't in Santa Cruz at the time. My time
was spent mostly in Sonoma County, with some time also in L.A.
(anyone remember John, the guy that ran the ashram in Hollywood
back then. Used to wear a white suit?).

Other memories and musings:

I played guitar and sang 'Lord of the Universe' etc in program
with Maharaji in Culver City, CA. I dragged my parents to this.
I think they were pretty shocked.

Going to Venice Beach with the premies to hand out flyers to passers-by, trying to engage them in conversation about Knowledge and Maharaji.

Hanging with the Sonoma County-based premie band 'Seymour Light' that featured David LaFlamme (violinist for 'It's A Beautiful Day').

Lots of meditation under a sheet, using a 'barogan' (that thing mystified lots of folks who saw it in my room!).

Serious doubts about the 'there's only one Satguru at any given time' party line as I was well informed about the many other gurus on the scene at the time who seemed MORE enlightened or at least outwardly holy than M.

John at the L.A. ashram asking for donations for a $100,000 Rolls Royce that M said he admired (he got it too).

Speculations on who might have Knowledge and was a secret premie (i.e. Cat Stevens' 'Peace Train' song - surely Cat was a premie!)

Participating in a march in a New Delhi middle-class neighborhood to let folks know about the big event that would be taking place at the fairgrounds (I think there was a lot of showing off of Westerners by DLM).

Sneaking out to Old Delhi to visit the music shop where the Beatles bought there sitars and tablas, and meeting a man who spoke good English who asked me increduously 'You are a learned man. How can you believe in this Balyogi?'

Getting stones thrown at us on the bus with M's picture on it on the way from Delhi to Prem Nagar ashram in Hardwar.

The meeting hall inside of Prem Nagar ashram where there were pictures of Shri Hans, Sarupanand and others on a fancy altar/stage. This was the real deal!

Sneaking a peek at a letter Mahatma Rajeswar was writing to
someone back home, where he was bragging about what an important man he was in the U.S. and wore a fancy watch.

-Bill

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 18:48:34 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: happyheretic@hotmail.com
To: slackandsteel
Subject: Nice story
Message:
Bill,
I liked your journey very much. I was also there - in Prem Nagar, and in Delhi - those were quite fun times, despite the hardships. The Astrodome was the real turning point, when it started to go downwards. Lucky (or clever) you, to have the sense to get out already in 1974. Welcome to these pages.
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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 10:42:29 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: New stuff on my website!!! Mili, don't miss this!!
Message:
Here's some great old stuff for India's lovers (Mili, you'll like it!)

Antidote to Nuclear Bombs !!!!!

I haven't finished processing the whole booklet, Indian printing is really something else!!

Some astounding excerpts:

According to the Nabular theory which has bean accepted by the present-day scientists as the most modern and authentic theory on the evolution of the world, the world is composed of matter and energy. The matter has three forms viz solid, liquid and gaseous. The energy generates from the matter. The form of matter, however, is subject to change according to the change in temperature, i. e., effect of energy on matter. The scientists first propagated the evolution of the earth to solar energy, then they discovered electrical energy and now they work on atomic energy. According to them the atom is the smallest possible part of a matter. In the heart of the atom is neutron which is unbreakable. The neutron is joined with atoms by electrons. The separation of the electrons from neutron generates atomic energy which is so powerful that it can change the forms of the existing matter, i.e., it can change solids into liquids and liquids into gaseous. The nuclear bombs have been prepared on this theory. It is apprehended that the nuclear bombs will release radioactivity which will change the existing forms of the matter and thereby cause complete annihilation not only of the human race but the destruction of the whole world. The present day scientists have thus worked so far only on matter and on the energy generated from the matter. The Divine Light which is far subtler than the atom or the neutron is still unknown to them. The Divine Energy generated from the communion of the inner consciousness with the Divine Light is quite incomprehensible to them. They cannot deny that the Divine Light, if it at all exists, must be subtler than the neutron which they have so far discovered. Hence it would be a subject for their discovery and realisation before they can be allowed to fix their opinion on it. They have not been able to go, so far, beyond the gaseous forms of the world. But the eternal truth is that the gaseous form of the universe itself generated from the eternal Divine Word - The Divine Light. Naturally the Divine Energy is more powerful than the atomic energy.

BTW: Kechri Mudra (m's 4th technique) is definitely mentioned in this booklet, here goes my theory ....!

I'll have scans of every page available soon, so that premies may update their good book, and have some of the original Indian vibe!

Hahahaha....


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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 14:28:07 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thanks, J-M. I have stolen it for my book...
Message:
'Fitzroy's Crap Theories of the Mind, Body and Spirit' - coming soon to web-site near you.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 17:16:17 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Mili, don't miss this!! ONE MORE PAGE today !!!
Message:
One more boring piece of neo-Indian theories.

If you don't want to read more about the Glory of Shabd Brahma, don't waste your time there!

Lots of Hindi quotes and fun for Indian archeologist!

Just one excerpt to give you an idea of what it's about:

The Name of the Almighty is thus both lustrous Paras Gem and Kalp Tree. It can give any amount of riches, provide shelter against all sufferings, mitigate the effects of harmful elements and turn all undesirables to desirables. Should not, therefore, the people of the world acquire the knowledge of this Name and constantly recollect It for their survival and for attainment of true happiness ?

I guess Prempal kept it for himself, that's why he's now so rich!

Please Lord, give us the Paras Gem and Kalp Tree!!!

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 04:23:49 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Ok, what is the Paras Gem and Kalp Tree? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 08:45:41 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Paras Gem and Kalp Tree: ask Prempal! haha!!
Message:
He's the one who's supposed to transmit his father's teaching, isn't it?

Maybe he's kept a few stuff for him? haha

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 13:18:31 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: The 'Kalp Tree' is the 'wish fulfulling tree'
Message:
See First Steps To Jainism. It is also talked about by the Maharishi at Total Knowledge at a Glance and Means to Realize Total Knowledge. Maybe this tree is where Cocky Pete is getting his 'Knowledge' from.
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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 17:35:01 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: G
Subject: The 'Kalp Tree' is the 'wish fulfulling tree'
Message:
'It can give any amount of riches, provide shelter against all sufferings, mitigate the effects of harmful elements and turn all undesirables to desirables.'

Yours for only ...(how much do souls get on the open market these days?...)

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 21:05:20 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: How did you get chosen?
Message:
Dear Jean-Michel,

Since the arrival of 22 more instructors recently I wonder how M picks them? How did he pick you? I would have thought the richer the better but I don't think you were rich. I know other instructors that certainly weren't rich either. So..... how does he oick them - any ideas? sb. pick but
I like oick so I left it in!

Regards,

Curious George

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 22:11:06 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Curious George
Subject: How did you get chosen? Very simple!
Message:
Ist you had to be a 'candidate', i.e. ask for a form from doom (divine office of m), fill it, andsend it back to doom.

Then you had to be recommended (that was never openly said of course) by one of Rawat's collaborator, NC or other. In my case that was the NC I was close to, had been working with him on some projects (you obviously had to be involved, praticing, inspiring, clear, bla bla, preferably ex ashramite, known by some instructor, etc).

Then Rawat's secretary would chose among the recommended candidates the number needed for each country for such and such instructor training. These numbers were calculated by Rawat and the NC, according to their plans, needs, requests of other instructors etc.

Is this answering your question?

I assume the system hasn't changed much.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 04:51:47 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: One detail I forgot to mention
Message:
is that obviously Rawat checked his secretary's list at some point and removed or added some names he knew.

That's why there were some 'candidates' (female of course) that were not approved by the NCs .... haha I don't know if I want to go into this again!!!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 05:42:47 (GMT)
From: Curiouser and curiouser
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Oh Jean, go into it again!
Message:
I would like to hear this story, please.

Curious George

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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 08:50:38 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Curiouser and curiouser
Subject: I'll tell you if you're a good boy!
Message:
But I don't know if I want to piss him and premies off again.

You know, he had some ex-lovers he wanted to please .... specially blonde women ..... and everybody was surprised to see them in the trainings, knowing they were not really active premies. Gopies definitely ...... well .... do you think he's going to sue me if I'm more precise ? errrrr....

I remember some NC really surprised witnessing this ..... seemingly not understanding why these women were invited .... pretty embarrassed you can imagine!!!

Hahahahahahahaha Is it still the case today? ........

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 17:37:13 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: As if he'd ever sue, Jean-Michel ... (nt)
Message:
As if he'd ever sue, Jean-Michel ... (nt)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 10:33:38 (GMT)
From: Some conjecture about
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: the new instructors, helpful for premies
Message:
Rawat very likely decided to have new instructors during his 'teamwork trainings' meetings that happened recently with his most dedicated intl premies. Heard about those seminars?

I guess they tried to find some solution for the zero propagation problem in West..... bring some 'live' inspiration and 'life' in the communities, talk to the premies and aspirants. That'll keep them busy for a while, with the impression that something 'important' is finally happening.

Of course nothing will happen, maybe some new premies here and there, and he'll fire them in a few years when the result will be obvious .... Hahaha. Poor guys taken for one more ride!!

I guess he opened it for candidates, and lots of these guys applied. He choose some of them according to his 'criteria' (means approval by NCs or Rcs or instructors or pams), and invited them to the training. Simple, nothing mysterious, no reason to be frustrated!

One more thing: obviously lots of very dedicated premies are very frustrated (quite some don't come anymore to videos) by the present situation (zero propagation, nothing to do, no one to speak, no 'service', no 'big' programs, the exes problem, etc), and these guys now have a carrot dangling in front of them .... becoming an instructor. That'll keep them in the fold for a while. Of course those instructors are not going to defect for a while ...... Rawat's safe with his little court for some time. And he's obviously guruing and justifying all the money racket, PAMs working for him, etc.... Sad, sad, sad.

Jean-Michel

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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 15:39:19 (GMT)
From: Occasional Mole
Email: None
To: Some conjecture about
Subject: the new instructors, helpful for premies
Message:
JM-

All of the PAM'S and EV staff I've ever dealt with seem to be TERRIFIED of the big guy. Did you experience the 'fear factor'
when you were in close proximity to him?

OM

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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 17:21:18 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel Freud
Email: None
To: Occasional Mole
Subject: Impressed: yes. TERRIFIED: NO!!!!
Message:
Well, I guess these guys have a HUGE PROBLEM!!!!

He's obviously abusing them, they enjoy the relationship for some reason, they're on a bad road ..... And he also takes advantage of this game. Too obvious.

That's EXTREMELY SAD!!!!!

Jean-Michel

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Date: Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 01:27:58 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel Freud
Subject: TERRIFyingly insane booklet
Message:
Guess I lucked out finding anything that made any sense in it, not that they've noticed it, obviously.

Do these instructors get paid, Jean-Michel?

Please forgive my ignorance, but m-land is one place I'm quite content to be ignorant of.

(m-land seems to be the one place where ignorance is 'bliss' - not)

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 12:43:23 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Everybody is lost!! We all need a guru!
Message:
HAHAHAH HO HO HAHAHA.....
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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 15:22:56 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: anyone
Subject: Read more carefully!
Message:
A marvelous post and booklet. I am looking forward to reading more when you get it on-line. Thank you Jean Michel!

Here's a section I particularly enjoyed, pointing out the assumption that SB is laughing about (can't we be inspired by 'whoever', whatever the person is called, whatever their background?). I would need to read more to find out if, in fact, there is a contradiction somewhere, but with this part, and what little I've had time to read so far, I am in complete agreement - without splitting hairs.

from 'How to Save Mankind from Extinction'

Much confusion has been created as to what Divine Light, the Holy Name of God and concentration of mind exactly are. Some people maintain that concentration of mind can be attained by the regular study of the scriptures and the performance of rituals and sacrifices. Others feel that it can be achieved by the practice of austerity. But all this is delusion - total deception. If concentration of mind could be achieved by the mere study of scriptures like the Vedas, the Gita, the Ramayana, the Upanishads, the Bible, the Koran, the Guru Granth Sahib and the like, or by the performance of outward rituals and sacrifices as preached and practiced by so-called religious men, there would have been no conflicts and peace would have been established long ago. But it has not been so. On the contrary, so-called religions have been responsible for many great conflicts, and they have caused destruction of many cultures and civilizations. These religious practices have not changed man's gross nature, and they have brought about no change of heart. Really they cannot do so, for they are not the right way.


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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 16:57:12 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: But Shri Hans kept rituals like Arti and austerity
Message:
But then Shri Hans kept outward rituals like Arti, the austerity of the ashram, sacrifices (of money, sex, social respect, family ties, etc.), and the religion called Divine Light Mission (now Elan Vital) which has caused conflicts.

He should have listened to his own words. It's a case of the pot calling the kettle black, or 'My religion is better than your religion.'

Also, some good has come from religions, they are not totally bad. For example, inspiration for scientific research, feeding the poor, some good music (like Bach). I may not agree with some of the words, but it is still good music. It can be debated whether religion caused these good things, or bad things for that matter, but still, they are not totally bad. Things aren't black or white.

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 04:26:48 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: But Shri Hans kept rituals like Arti and austerity
Message:
That's the contradiction I had hoped someone would respond to, because as a non-anything I don't really know from personal experience - you are much more aware of that than I am. But here is another example of 'Inconsistencies wear thin' (my expression). I feel that as the oldest DLM doc that this is the good intention that went to hell, but what more can you expect of a virtually uneducated kid in a suddenly modern foreign world, under the impetus of his dying father's words (and living family and tradition - from what I've been able to gather)? This is a piece of what I mentioned to Runamok is still slushing around in my mind somewhere. There is no doubt in my mind that m's father's good intentions were sincere, and I believe that this was the essence of what attracted most of you to m, until it became a 'Coney Island' of the heart and soul.

I haven't yet read the new page, and I hope I find the time to respond to it before this thread gets lost in the undertow of the nonsense bullshit that's flying aroud here. If not, I'll 'start' a new thread.

Keep on posting J-M and G! And I thank you both.

Stonor

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 17:58:41 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Concentration of mind is one thing, but what has
Message:
God to do with this?

Why call this God, and devote your life to Satguru to 'realize' God. And why should this be the only goal in your life ?

Don't you think that raises lots of questions?

Specially when Rawat says that his 'teaching' (or message) hasn't changed!!!

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 18:37:51 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Concentration, God, feelings, goals of life
Message:
Many people make it out that you have to believe in God in order to have peace of mind, be happy, or feel love. Furthermore, that you must conceptualize these experiences and explain them in some way. I don't think they are dependant on beliefs, philosophies, religions or lack thereof. From an intellectual viewpoint I don't know what they are. They are certainly not the only goal in life. Being actively loving, helping other physically, contributing to society, fighting evil, enjoying people, music, food, nature, etc. are also very meaningful. Otherwise, what's the point in being alive? The idea of being 'dead to this world' is sick. I think it's an idea used by gurus and their ilk to exploit people.

I also question the notion that these feelings, or being self aware or concentrated, are the same as knowing 'God'. I've felt very good at times, but that doesn't mean that I know the big picture. I don't think anyone knows or is even close to knowing it. There's a whole lot of arrogance going on.

Prem Rawat recently said 'Give simplicity a chance.'

Yes, Mr. Rawat, why don't you? Why do you keep insisting that people must idolize you in order to be happy?

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 20:46:20 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Y'all
Subject: re:This Djuro Dickhead.
Message:
Dear All,

It is rare that I am moved to start a new thread. These posts by this Djuro creep are really the most appalling crap. His trite pathetic little questions come from the warped mind of someone who actually believes he's some kinda spiritual guru himself. In reality he's got nothing to say for himself. Zilch. The fridge door is open. The light is on. But there's no-one home. An empty shell filled with guruspeak and godshit. He's come to save those who don't ask for or need his sugary salvation. Come to help those who don't want his fetid advice. A typical fuckin' preacher. Folks, no matter who you are this type knows what's best for you even if you don't want it. His infantile mental probes have always been characteristic of the stereotypical religious fruitcake. Just a few well chosen words from one who knows all will precipitate the inner rehabilitation of the receiver. Like fuck. A couple of short neuron hops and waddya got. The Spanish Boggin' Inquisition. Jesus Fuckin' H Christ Holy Mother of God and All The Fuckin' Footballing Saints preserve me from this shit.

Coach.

Off the wagon; me last horse was carried in on a stretcher by his jockey a good half an hour after the others crossed the line. It was a dead cert. Literally.

PS 'Scuse language. Y'know.


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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 11:52:19 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: re:This Djuro Dickhead.
Message:
This Djuro character is the latest in line for the JHS Gabriel award. Do remember JHS? He used to sign himself of with a cross and god is love was his catchphrase.

Djuro is cautionary tale for aspiants who visit. See here, you too can be a complete goof just like Djuro or if you don't like that flavour look at Mel Bourne, the intellectual variety.

What a rich choice.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:27:36 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji
Message:
In your darkest moments, Maharaji will not abandone you
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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 06:19:32 (GMT)
From: Mickey Moss
Email: ickymickey@home.com
To: Djuro
Subject: Maharaji
Message:
I know eggascly what cha mean D'Giorno. I went for a picnic one day up in Oregon and that stuped mntain blue up, with ass all over the place. I cut arddly see my hand in frent of my face and nothing but that nasty mud and dust and juust scary as hell. And then I noticed I had this big ball of bubblegum stucked to my sheu and I kneu tha Maharjey was rith therer with me, and Id prably stepped on his poor lil face to bute. Then, I cudnnt see where I was going so it aaent my fault. I was glad his gumm saw stucked there reely.

mick

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 23:06:23 (GMT)
From: that's because he lis the
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: lord of darkness. Inlight of day he WILL abandon U
Message:
rghjhgd
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 23:18:01 (GMT)
From: cOACH
Email: None
To: that's because he lis the
Subject: lord of darkness. Inlight of day he WILL abandon U
Message:
Dear Anomalous Postee,

Absolutely. Very incisive if I might say so.

Couldn't agree more.

Barman, I'll have a large measure of whatever my friend here has bin drinkin'.

Cooch

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:16:48 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
Message:
Djuro: YES, even a self-deluded premie can occasionally tickle my funnybone......

BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

This is rich....... 'won't abandone'........ BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:51:59 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Djuro
Subject: Ok, spell it out...
Message:
In my darkest hour, instead of abandoning me, WHAT will Maharaji do?

Has it crossed your mind that the darkest hours of most exes might already be behind them?

Or that Maharaji's help was sought and found lacking?

You ask a lot of questions, Djuro. I have yet to see you answer one.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:40:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Don't you mean Jesus?
Message:
And don't you mean 'abandon'?
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:38:34 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Maharaji
Message:
You really do think he is God don't you . you poor sweet person.
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:20:37 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Hal.... pssst..... over here.....
Message:
Hal: Djuro is a liar. He states down below that M didn't say he was god, that WE did it...... Then, up here, he starts making thinly veiled claims concerning M's apparent divinity......

Who's yanking who's crank, here?

This guy is more full of 'stuffing' than the proverbial christmas turkey...... He can't even keep his lies straight! :-)

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 21:05:13 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Hal.... pssst..... over here.....
Message:
Hi Mike,

Djuro has to be ignored. He never answers any questions. We exes know that the cult members think he's god. Furthermore, how many times has Lard said that 'that power' has to incarnate to save the rightous, pure at heart people? HOW MANY TIMES, PREMIES??? TOO MANY!!

No he doesn't have the guts to say it directly but WE all know the stupid thinks he's god, so he can continue his money crusade.

S

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:32:42 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Luv ya!
Message:
Mike, did you ever lose your 'activity' base while caught up in the whole whoopla back then?
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 21:41:28 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Yes....
Message:
Ham: I reread your post at I think that you were talking about my personal 'activities,' right? Things that 'I' wanted/liked/needed to do?

If so, the answer is yes...... I lived in a premie community in portland that really put the skids on anything that 'I' wanted to do. Don't get me wrong, they weren't nazis, but they DID know how to apply some very uncomfortable pressure to try to 'ease' one on the 'way!' When I left portland and moved back to phoenix, I was a pretty one-pointed premie there, too. I did a little more of what I wanted to do, but my status kept me from affording much...... typical dead-end premie jobs that you could afford to lose because you would take off on a moments notice to kiss the lotus toes or to hear the melodious (or is it malodorous) tones of a screaming satguru. Jeez, I was getting so poor that I couldn't even afford to go to programs without floating loans all over the place...... it had to stop!

But after I joined the military, some of my favorite activities began to come back naturally. I did/do love hiking and backpacking, so they were a natural...... he he he :-) The U.S. military is very big on community service and that sort of thing, so they 'came back' pretty rapidly, too. Additionally, since I was stationed all over the place, I got some opportunities to do things that would be hard for me to afford, even now. For example, climbing McKinley and backpacking katmai...... I was stationed at Kodiak at the time, so I wasn't far away AND since the station was considered 'remote' (read that: LONELY!), we were permitted more 'leave' than usual. I was even offered the opportunity to do Everest, but that would have been a bit much......... NO, I never did it, but I definitely have some MAJOR respect for those who have..... I've backpacked 'thru' the area and have seen it up-close. It's beyond words..... there, premies.... K isn't the only thing that is beyond our ability to grasp or describe adequately! Does that make it a deeevine experience?

One nice thing about being in the military was that I couldn't concentrate on 'my' needs so much. I had to worry about my comrades and then, as I became senior, I had to worry about my troops. There wasn't much time for 'me,' personally. That's when I started to question everything about M's 'teachings' or lack thereof. They seemed totally selfish, when I had the time to really sit down and think about him/them. The more I thought about them, the worse it got, too! Once I reached the point of being pissed, that was IT!

Seriously though, the answer is yes for many of my activities. Fortunately for me.... the military happened (and I REALLY DO mean that)!

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 20:06:49 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: I must be dense
Message:
ham: Could you tell me what you mean by 'activity' base? I'm not sure if you mean. :-)
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 21:49:50 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Sorry Mike, in shorthand mode at the mo
Message:
The way that actions appear so crucial to your sense of being.

Thinking of your sense of practicality versus the incompetence around DLM, how did you cope?

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 22:30:49 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Ohhhhhh, now I got ya
Message:
Well ham, that's a GREAT question!

You are right in saying that 'action' tends to be my defining element, if you will. Well, I won't repeat the military stuff I wrote above, but I'm sure that you can tell that the military made it even worse(?)..... he he he.

Remember ham, in the beginning there was an organization called DUO that was trying to become very ACTIVE. Well, at least WE thought it was..... and we were on the ground floor, helping. Anyway, I think many of the action-oriented folks would have found that to be a good outlet. In portland, almost eveyone did a 'tour' in the store and helped collect stuff for it. Also, remember that PROPAGATION was king! It was a very active organization, at the time. Heck, anything that could bring real, lasting peace to this beleagured planet deserved my attention (IMHO). It 'looked' like it could actually do it, too. Stuff was 'happening' everywhere..... or, at least, we were led to believe that it was..... I'm not sure which, now.

NOW..... after I joined the military, I would lose touch for short periods of time. In those intervening periods, things would probably happen pretty subtly to most people, but to me it was like a major 'slap' because I would see it all-at-once. I come back and DUO's gone..... why???? No answer.... WHy aren't we doing community service? No answer.... I come back and M's not god, anymore. In fact, the pix and tapes that I have are contraband......why??? No answer..... I come back and nobody is doing ANYTHING (not even propagation activities or ANY satsang)! WHY????? No answer.... I BAIL!!!!! NOWWWWWWWW, I WAS PISSED! I'd been lied to and I just got the picture.... clear as crystal! Nothing, absolutely NOTHING had happened, was happening or ever would happen! I'd been taken in by a measely little scheister! Damn, that pissed me off!

Again, understand that I was talking in big leaps here and I wasn't really 'gone' for very long at any one time (a couple of short tours of duty in places with no premies). To come back after such a short period of time and see those changes, that everyone seemed to accept so willingly, was a SHOCK! However, I did begin to notice that certain people were 'absent.....' Why???? No answer....... as usual!

So you are quite correct in your 'take' on me! Since action is so important to me, I would no sooner rejoin in their do-nothing organization headed by a do-nothing, self-agrandizing leader than I would join the moonies! Alot of 'talk' and absolutely NO action.

What a bunch of morons premies are, if they honestly believe for a single instant that this is the way to bring real, lasting peace to this planet..... morons all! People, and by that I mean real-everyday-type-people, don't get very inspired by watching someone meditate and walk around with a silly, fake smile pasted on their face and nothing more...... Those same people DO tend to get pretty inspired by ACTIONS that are altruistic and humane (or at least appear to be)...... tell me, if you want to inspire people to emulate you (like taking the ACTIONS necessary to bring peace to the planet, for example), which 'activity' should we be engaging in? It's a no-brainer from my perspective. :-)

Good question, Ham...... thanks for asking!

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 23:24:09 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Ham
Subject: I forgot to mention......
Message:
Ham: I did want to mention the fact that, in my younger days (pre-military), I wasn't quite as action-oriented as I am now. I WAS action-oriented, but the scale changed while I was 'growing up.' DUO didn't seem to be so incompetently run, at the time, nor did DLM. But, I wasn't exactly god's-gift to organization and efficiency, either...... I didn't know what to look for in that particular regard. It seemed like they were doing well, so I pitched in to do my part!

It was my 'evolution' in the military that really made the difference...... and quickly. It wasn't long before I 'discovered' that good things don't happen unless you make them happen. Sh_t doesn't just happen by itself..... and never did! It wasn't long before I KNEW that if we failed in our ability to make/keep peace, there would be a horrific price to pay. I KNEW, all to well, WHO was going to be called on to pay that price, too! This just naturally has the effect of making one think about action and the results of action (or lack thereof).

Having the will and patience to 'enforce' peace was another milestone in my personal growth. Understanding the need for ACTION to prevent a breakdown in peace (or the peace of those not interested in having a war)..... etc. Some people are so determined to remove your peace..... I'm just as determined to preserve it!

On a more 'normal' note, since I was immediately responsible for the life of my comrades (later, my troops), the results of a lack-of-action were more than apparent, as well. For instance, I spot a safety violation and do NOTHING...... who would be responsible if the result was injury or worse? The person who put the violation in place or the person who saw it and did nothing? Safety violations can occur through error.... Spotting it and doing nothing is INTENTIONAL..... You know who I think is responsible! AGAIN, ACTION...... preferably PREEMPTIVE ACTION!

Additionally, while I was in the military, I had the supreme opportunity to assist people who needed assistance. I had the honor, on several occasions, to be part of humanitarian activities..... some abroad, some at home. If JW happens to be reading this, I was on a ship that was used as a homeless shelter when the last big earthquake happened in San Francisco. Was that a pleasant exercise..... not in the slightest. Was it worth it? You couldn't get me to trade that experience for anything! This is a test, JW.... which ship was I on? You should know the answer, you guys 'adopted us' he he he :-) The point is, once again, I saw the results of ACTION, real action, humanitarian action...... and it takes no stretch on my part to tell you what the results of lack-of-action would have been!

I really took these things to heart and it affected EVERYTHING about me. Now, given my previous post above, you can understand that while I was 'growing' in my awareness of the need for real action, I was becoming 'horrified' more and more by the obvious LACK of action by our living LARD! In fact, it was getting worse by leaps and bounds..... Not only was I growing in awareness of the need, he was actually dismantling anything in the organization that had to do with ACTION!

You know, doesn't it seem strange that the military I joined DID MORE to promote humanitarian action than the organization that was initially touted to be the repository of same (namely DLM)? Seeing as humanitarian-action is a secondary role for the military; it doesn't speak very well for an organization whose PRIMARY purpose is supposed (and was promised) to be THE vessel for peace on earth and 'feeding all the people!'

Sorry premies, I can tell you without the slightest doubt, that the ships to which I was attached, ALONE, have fed more people than your entire organization over its entire lifetime! This can be easily proven, too..... the Navy keeps really good expenditure records, does your lord do the same?

Thanks for the opportunity to hound them darned premies again, Ham...... the pleasure was all mine!

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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 18:25:57 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Great Stuff Mike
Message:
Luv ya again.

Want to give this one a decent response

Be in tomorrow, this touches on some fundamental stuff I think, deserves some quality if very belated response..

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 01:11:20 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: I forgot to mention......
Message:
Mike:
My brother was in the Navy (during the Vietnam years), and although he didn't like the heat that was directed at him for being in the military during Vietnam, it was one of the best things he's ever done. After he was discharged, he finished college and became a marine biologist and is now an environmental scientist. He was pretty whacked out before (mainly as a result of our upbringing), but the Navy did him a world of good. He did get to see the world literally, and that experience broadened his horizons immeasurably.
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 17:25:57 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Love
Message:
Once, you all talked about divine inside.
Now, you talk about garbage.
When you were right, then or now?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 18:38:36 (GMT)
From: ex-mug
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Love
Message:
keep taking the pills
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 23:12:31 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Love
Message:
How do you know when you're in love?
When she pats you on the arse and says, 'you're in love' ;)
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:32:34 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Now (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:47:27 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Service, man, pure service
Message:
to the heart, or compassion, depending on the mood. You make the painful mistake of not being able to deal with your shadow side, so you see this place as negative. Have you actually checked with others? Maybe they get other rewards than bliss, which might be equally as rewarding. Think you need to look & realize you're carrying plenty of your own conceptual baggage.

See Djuro for me it was always knowledge. I left because it was painfully obvious he was at best incompetent & at worst.........

Remember, knowledge worked for me just fine, but it was bloody obvious also that if you tried to follow all of the slug's many different positions you ended up lost in confusion or denial. All of that stuff from him had nothing to do with truth and relaxed focussing, which helps you to concentrate, a good starting point for meditation one would have thought.

Also obvious he's never had faith in peoples abilities to experience knowledge, or in k itself, not exactly inspiring that wouldn't you agree?

But we know that already, he's a shit teacher.

By the way the techniques still work fine for me, now how can that be?

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:56:54 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Hamzen you make a lotta sense! (nt)
Message:
o
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:43:46 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Thanks Hal
Message:
What a load of old bollocks it all is.

As he so rightly stated, the truth is extremely simple

Thats the funny thing about so many of the meditation based quotes he makes, they're even more true when you've walked. Just another little irony to add to the long list.

Hal me old mate, you know how close we've been & how much I appreciate you.........Well you don't by chance have a small field near you where three or four tents could be pitched. If that was at the same time as one of those local tea dances you were talking about the other day, so much the better, if it's even posseeblay as they say. Just sounds like a nice chilled possible for the summer?

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:07:28 (GMT)
From: Dgeri
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Love
Message:
Once I thought Jesus was god and savior. Then I thought Mahaha was the lord of the universe. Now I know both were incorrect. When was I right, now or then?
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:15:35 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: Dgeri
Subject: Love
Message:
Jesus was here 2000 years ago.
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 21:59:20 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Now THERE was an inspiring and
Message:
enlightened answer! NOT!

Like we couldn't see that one coming...... Djuro, you are pathetic!

BTW, ask a Jesus person and they'll tell you that he's here now.... and NOT in the form of M!

So, what you seem to be saying is that if the all-powerful, all-knowing god isn't in a physical form then he can't do anything for you (Jesus freaks might argue this point a little more strongly)...... Interesting 'limitation' on god's part, don't you think? I mean, after all, he IS INSIDE YOU, right? Why is he/she/it incapable of 'working on you' from there? Go ahead, try to argue your way out of that one...... AND I KNOW that you didn't see it coming (too busy poking your eyeballs to really see anything of value).

Djuro, wake up and realize for once in your wasted life, that YOU ARE WASTING YOUR LIFE on an incoherent and contradictory mish-mosh of hindu mysticism, parlor tricks (the rainbow at hans jayanti, for example) and outright lies!

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:00:17 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: What garbage?
Message:
Djuro: I take the garbage out everyday, while you seem to like revelling in its smell.

To what garbage are you referring? The fact that M tried to pass himself off as the lord-incarnate? The fact that M won't take a crap on a non-golden toilet? The fact that M wouldn't know a charitable act if one came up and bit him on the ass (not a threat.....not a threat)? The fact that M has protected child molestors and an attempted murderer from the arms of justice? The fact that M intentionally pollutes MY air with the exhaust from his jetliner-for-one, just to assuage his ego? The fact that M has made more promises than a politician and has kept absolutely NONE of them?

So, tell me Djuro..... to which piece of garbage are you referring?

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:12:03 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: What garbage?
Message:
YOU tried to pass Maharaji off as the Lord-incarnate.
From one heart-to another heart, that's the message of Maharaji.
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 21:10:37 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: What garbage? Your GURU's !
Message:
Those are called lies, the ones your guru puts in your head. WAKE UP!!Your life is passing by. Be free. Let me guide you and point the way to you: OUT OF THE CULT IS YOUR 'SALVATION'.

~Dellussioned people around here~ = Devotees

S

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:59:56 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: That's an outright LIE, Djuro
Message:
Djuro: HE, I repeat HE, I say again, HE tried to pass himself off as god incarnate. Have you not seen the copious quotes from HIM on this subject?????

I will not allow YOU the luxury of laying this lie on the premies themselves! YOU are a LIAR, Djuro. To see those quotes from M and to then say that he never said that, is a brazen, bald-faced LIE!

You can take your IDEA of what 'love' is and stuff it where the sun doesn't shine! My idea of love includes attempting to tell the truth, apparently yours doesn't!

BTW, I feel the same way about Mel and his attempts to pass those quotes off as anything other than what they are..... HE is a bald-faced liar, too! Am I beginning to see a premie trend here?

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 17:52:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: now (nt)
Message:
b
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:06:34 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: Jim(only)
Subject: now (nt)
Message:
Who are you?
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:33:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: That;s rich!
Message:
Some semi-literate anonymous cult dupe asks me who I am? Too funny. I'm Jim Heller, bud, and I'm in the book. Who are you?
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 17:33:04 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Love
Message:
Some of us still believe in the Divine inside, others don't. (I do, although I have come to add the outside world into the equation. Loving others, for real, not just pursuing selfish bliss.)

However, knowing what we now know about Maharaj Ji, (and if you don't choose to accept the truth, it might be a good idea to examine your reasons for choosing ignorance over knowledge) it is laughable to think that he is the conduit for the Divine he claims to be. We have grown up. It happens to most premies, sooner or later.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:03:30 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: How true!
Message:
Gregg: your words, '...Loving others, for real, not just pursuing selfish bliss...' are right on the money! M is the antithesis to that statement; as should be clear to anyone that has any sight left after pressing their eyeballs for so long.
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 17:48:10 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Love
Message:
You claimed Maharaji is the conduit for the Divine.
Loving others-everybody but not Maharaji.
And if you don't choose to accept the truth...you were talking exactly the same,as a premie.
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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 00:08:41 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Do you believe Prem Rawat is God, yes or no? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:01:10 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Maharaji has claimed repeatedly to BE God
Message:
Do you need some quotes, have you forgotten?

Could you rephrase these sentences? What are you saying?

Do you think Maharaji is the conduit for the Divine? If so, can you explain how that could possibly work, or have you ever thought about it?

Maybe you are saying that we used to say that. Some of us did, so what, that doesn't make it true. Actually, one time I said, 'Maharaji is God' and said it loudly. I said it to be impressive to other premies. I didn't really believe what I was saying. There was a great deal of peer pressure.

This is not about not loving Maharaji, it is about holding him accountable for his actions, for example, his bad habit of collecting expensive watches. HE said it was a 'bad habit', not me, I'm just taking him at his word.

Suppose someone were on trial, would a valid defense be 'Oh, you are not loving me.'?

Actually, I think the critical feedback he is receiving from this forum may do him some good. All the uncritical adulation he has gotten from premies has bolstered up his ego. Is that good for him? I think not. Someone needs to tell the emperor that he needs to put some clothes on.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 16:16:24 (GMT)
From: Occasional Mole
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: General Alert
Message:
EV is about to announce a North American tour...small halls... for pwk ONLY...knowledge reviews for all. This will be kept very low key ...heavy security.

m just cranked out another batch of 22 instructors, just in time for the tour.

Instructor Objective:
The instructor team's key objective for 2000 is to continue to place responsibility for propagation on people with Knowledge everywhere and to make all propagation activities less dependent on instructors in general.
They also want to ensure continuing quality of propagation activities as this transition occurs.

Performance Plans:
The instructor team is currently revising a performance plan for the instructor area. A key element of the plan is to have agreements with Regional Contacts and National Contacts on specific objectives with measurable results for all instructor activities.

London Underground.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 00:15:23 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Occasional Mole
Subject: General Alert
Message:
Don't you think small programs are bec of this site. So M wants more control and security?
You can't handle subversion so easily in big crowds. He's being smart, wouldn't ya say.
JB
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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 08:57:00 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: Some hints about programs' expenses
Message:
You know what ?

The Hyatt is very likley giving his ballroom for free to EV, because enough premies reserved rooms in their hotels. It's a common policy in the US.

The rest get payed by the premies, building the stage, or using the hotel's one, bringing AV equipment etc is pretty inexpensive and paid by some pams and individuals very likely.

EV won't spend a dime, and Rawat is going to get huge gifts. The more seldom the programs, the more gifts he gets. I've been into this, I remember !! As far as premies have the hope to get in one of them, they'll be fine, even though very much frustrated. That's premies' life anyway ....

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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 00:09:09 (GMT)
From: Mole #2
Email: None
To: All
Subject: This wkend,Ervine,CAL - Hyatt,800 fit (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 16, 2000 at 04:13:38 (GMT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Mole #2
Subject: Is that Irvine?
Message:
Let me take this opportunity to express my delight and great joy at the prospect of not having to attend this event. It is due primarily to this Forum that I no longer sleep or squirm through the inane banter while straining to eek some kind of experience out of the ordeal.
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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 00:48:24 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Occasional Mole
Subject: Confused, as usual
Message:
Thanks for posting this information. Is it just me, or are there some inconsistencies in this new 'alert,' and isn't this just more of the same old, same old? For example:

The instructor team's key objective for 2000 is to continue to place responsibility for propagation on people with Knowledge everywhere and to make all propagation activities less dependent on instructors in general.

If there is to be less emphasis on 'instructors,' why are there now 22 more of them? And isn't it peculiar how Maharaji, who is supposedly the source of the experience and was given the job by his godly father to propogate 'this knowledge' to the world, has NO responsibility for propogation? The Pukes are responsible for that. That's what Maharaji does when something is a failure, like propogation. Set someone ELSE up for the failure.

They also want to ensure continuing quality of propagation activities as this transition occurs.

Yes, there is that 'quality' word again. What happened to 'synchronized?' That cult-word appears to be missing. But my question is, what 'transition' is he talking about? Transition from WHAT to WHAT? Maharaji said in the 70s that it was the premies' responsiblity to tell people about knowledge. It didn't work then, and it won't work now. Fact is, the vast majority of premies are embarrassed to tell the people they work with, their non-premie acquaintances, and even their families, about knowledge. They can't just say it's about meditation, because there is this 'Maharaji' person, who lives like a king and is worshiped, who is impossible to explain. I don't believe premies have any idea how to explain who or what Maharaji is, and why he is a necessary part of the package, so they just don't tell anyone. They know damn well that the trip they are involved in looks like a raving personality cult to any normal, thinking, person, because that's exactly what it is.

Performance Plans:
The instructor team is currently revising a performance plan for the instructor area. A key element of the plan is to have agreements with Regional Contacts and National Contacts on specific objectives with measurable results for all instructor activities

This is pure bullshit. It sounds like Maharaji took some kind of cheesy management course or something and just stuck a bunch of buzzwords together. 'Performance plan???' 'Agreements on specific objectives with measurable results???' Please. What is the objective of an instructor activity? How about, 'pretending something is going on?' Or, 'keeping some of the premies busy.' Or, 'making the instructors think they are high and 'clear?'

I agree with what somebody said, above. This is all about the appearance that something might begin to start happening, maybe, just around the corner, imminently, soon, if the 'quality' is maintained. Unfortunatly, as we all know, when it comes to Mahararji, it never really does. This little 'transition' will soon be forgotten in the long string of 'revolutionary' and 'startling' changes that were going to finally bring peace to the world. What is amazing is that premies, who have seen this type of crap spewed out by Maharaji and PAMs for many years, take it seriously at all. I bet most of them don't.

By the way. I assume 'instructors' are NOT allowed to reveal knowledge, right? That hasn't changed, I assume.

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 05:55:07 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Confused, as usual
Message:
Joe:

Re: And isn't it peculiar how Maharaji, who is supposedly the source of the experience and was given the job by his godly father to propogate 'this knowledge' to the world, has NO responsibility for propogation? The Pukes are responsible for that. That's what Maharaji does when something is a failure, like propogation. Set someone ELSE up for the failure.

I've a hunch you aren't as confused as you make out. :-)

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 03:23:57 (GMT)
From: Remy
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Confused, as usual
Message:
JW,

I was invited to an aspirant only meeting; well, two actually. I guess the first one is instructors and videos. The following day there is another with Charnanand and/or Belkis(which I probably just totally mis-spelled), for aspirants to ask for knowledge. Just the pre-screening apparently until big M emerges.

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 06:47:33 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Remy
Subject: What about your aspirant's short life?
Message:
What happened? How have you been introduced to the big m fairy tale ? That did you like? What have you decided?

If I may ask ...

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 14:21:11 (GMT)
From: Remy
Email: J-M
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: What about your aspirant's short life?
Message:
J-M,

Well, the meeting hasn't happened yet. It looks like I might have to retire at my lowly aspirant status. Not to get too gory into details and start giving out driver's license numbers and various other T&A, I'll just say European influences help keep from my 'losing my mind'.

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 14:32:26 (GMT)
From: The Proud Frog
Email: None
To: Remy
Subject: So much for your American superiority, haha! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 19:01:03 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: The Proud Frog
Subject: Ha...we don't think we are, we KNOW we are
Message:
HA..... made you look!!!!!!!! he he he :-)
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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 02:41:35 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Good post ^^^^^ Thanks JW (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:25:19 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: Occasional Mole
Subject: General Alert/S.O.S....
Message:
...as In Same Old Shit. The only way the status quo can be maintained is to use the old propogation ploy. This is done to maintain the current premie base. By making things seem like they are happening, it keeps the current cult members BELIEVING!!

How many times has this trick been used???

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 20:09:52 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Angry
Subject: General Alert/S.O.S....TOO many times and...
Message:
the premies are at fault. They accept the instructor's visit because THEY think it's a source of inspiration. I thought that the experience was already inside of you...Oh, I forgot. Lard SAYS that premies forget and that is why they need to be reminded... What a joke!! But the lard keeps them convinced that is nothing wrong with anything, that all is okay: In his dreams!
S
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:50:25 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Angry
Subject: Phase 2 for the umpteenth time!
Message:
He's right you know, it is all the premies fault, any group of people who can still convince themselves that he is sharp, the sharpest man around, well........no wonder propagation never happens
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 20:40:32 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Now, there's an idea ham.....
Message:
Ham: Realizing that he has done a piss-poor job of propagating.... I mean, really..... to have such a small number of people in the possession of the 'ultimate whatzit,' after all fo this time is just sad sad sad!

Anyway, back to the idea: Since premies say they 'believe he's just a meditation teacher,' then they should just boot-him out of the way and do it themselves. I mean, if mahaha's 'grace' isn't a factor (because he isn't deeeeeevine), then what does it matter who teaches it? Heck, I'd bet that even Djuro or Mel would be a better teachers...... they couldn't possibly be any worse!

Maybe the premies' overpowering need to show 'gratitude' is getting in the way. Well, ok, then maybe they should consider this:

You know, I had surgery that literally saved my life some years back. Without it, I wouldn't be typing these words.... end 'o sentence.... I felt alot of gratitude to the surgical team that did their level best to see to it that I survived. Better yet, I suffered NO after-effects (ok, a small scar on my upper-right chest area)..... I'm as physically healthy (albeit a bit older) as I ever was. Well, that LIFE-SAVING gratitude DID have a limit, of sorts. I don't even remember their names, much less do I send them any money..... they wouldn't have accepted it anyway! Gratitude DOES have a limit folks! I'm more than sure that, despite their having (without a doubt) saved my life, they would have said, 'enough already with the gratitude' if I was still heaping it on them!

Anyway, that should adequately mitigate anyone's need to express infinite gratitude to the hamster.... Damn, all he did was pull a couple of techniques out of a black bag and show you how to use them..... even if he did 'change' them.... He sure as heck hasn't intentionally saved anyone's life (he doesn't even know who you are, since he isn't deeeevine, as premies say he isn't). Jeez, enough gratitude already!

Quite frankly, his inability to propagate such a wonderful 'gift' kinda negates the gratitude issue anyway, right? I mean, if propagation were as it should have been, there really would be no more blood-lettings on the planet, right? We really would be feeding all the people, right? Come on..... if K is such a wonderful 'gift,' then why hasn't every single person on the planet had the chance to practise it? Most people don't even know M exists, much less K! He has done an absolutely abysmal job of advertising his unlimited 'gift.' When was the last time he spent money for an infommercial, huh?????

So, there it is premies....... get off you collective duffs, kick M out of the way (figuratively, of course.... no threats here...), and go propagate/reveal. Screw 'his' timetable.... If he were a train conductor, he would have been fired years ago! He sucks at propagation and ONLY YOU can make it happen, so HURRY UP and do it!

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 17:57:27 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Now, there's an idea ham.....
Message:
Mike:

I think it was when we were hanging out in S.F. listening to that old fart (Satyananda, Syrupananda or something) that M. let us in on the fact that we were missing a magnificent unseen opportunity to propagate K. One day we would look back on that situtation and utterly regret the comparison between a world still in darkness and a world where K had become the norm. Gosh, you aren't saying he set us up are you? All this time I thought it was *my* fault! In fact, I could see at the time how lazy I was so I already knew it was going to be my fault and I've just been waiting for him to say 'I told you so.' Finally... I mean FINALLY... he's set things up so I can blame it on the present crop. About time somebody else had this marvelous opportunity. I wonder if I can send him my bill now?

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 18:19:59 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: BWAAAAHHHHH HA HA HA HA
Message:
Scott: THAT WAS GREAT! Yes, my son....... you've been let off the hook by your mentor Sri Lazy-anand (that's me...). It's the 'current crop's' opportunity, now! Actually, the ball's been in their court for a while, I just think they needed to be reminded.... M sure isn't doin' it!....he he he :-)
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:13:46 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Occasional Mole
Subject: New Labour?
Message:
Mole,

My God. It sounds just like New Labour. They'll have party cards soon.

Coach

ps New Labour is the name given to the revamped British Labour Party.

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:00:35 (GMT)
From: Interested
Email: None
To: Occasional Mole
Subject: New Instructors
Message:
Dear Occasional Mole,

Are these instructors from all over the world or are they U.S. or U.K. citizens?

Interested

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:25:36 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Occasional Mole
Subject: General Alert
Message:
m just cranked out another batch of 22 instructors, just in time for the tour

Looks like rawat is making a new attempt with instructors. No propagation these days, he'll try to 'inspire' premies ....

See what's going to happen!

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:29:27 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: General Alert
Message:
Why do you mind?
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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 18:18:15 (GMT)
From: Mickey Moss
Email: ickymickey@home.com
To: Djuro
Subject: General Alert
Message:
I reely like the way you epress yourself man. No werdnunce. jues get rigte to it. Ian not sure you care why I care why I mine but ef you caer he'res why. ef somebedy bilds a bonfire in the korner of my room i figeur that the hole place is giong to get hot eventuly. I lik saunas, but its event hoter then that. My but goos consideratly beyond the sweeting state to the ouch stage. swe aninway, sea ef you can git the trollglibate dawn to one werd. We havnent got all day.

mick
9with wats left uv a mine0

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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 12:12:31 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: General Alert: Because IS wrong, that why...
Message:
Tell me please your point of view about the benefit of an instructor visiting communities? What their visits have done? NOTHING> Just a waste of money. The premies that do invite them is because they feel obliged, thinking that the 'Lod' is sending them!!

I stopped inviting them around here because they do not do anything, because there is anything to do: Maharaji is down hill, darling. Face it!!

Common. You can't think and reason anymore?

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:29:09 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Because M is a liar, haven't you figured that out?
Message:
Djuro: A big, fat, bald-faced, lower-than-whalesh_t-maggot LIAR..... get it? He's a liar. He's the worst kind of liar: He blames his lies on YOU, the unsuspecting premies!

Worse yet, he gets you guys to blame YOURSELVES for HIS lies and misdeeds!

Even worse yet, YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT YOU are responsible for HIS LIES! So much so, that YOU are willing to LIE in his defense (like lying by saying, 'he never said he was god')!

You've gotten awfully good at lying to yourself, Djuro...... I recommend stopping now, before it's too late!

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:24:00 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: General Alert
Message:
For someone who's supposed to be enlightened you sure do ask a lot of stupid fuckin' questions. Start thinking for yourself for a change. Oh, sorry, I forgot. You're not supposed to do that are you? Someone else does the brain work for you. Go ask him. Mind you, it's highly unlikely you'll get any answer.
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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 19:31:09 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!
Message:
Coach: Why don't you just cut to the chase???? :-)

BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA........ drooling on my keyboard, I am!

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Date: Tues, Mar 14, 2000 at 18:40:38 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Djuro
Subject: General Alert
Message:
And why do YOU care?
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Date: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 12:13:35 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: General Alert: hahahaha (nt)
Message:
nt
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