Scott T. -:- Special Edition tonight on NBC -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 22:35:37 (GMT)

__ Scott T. -:- Special Edition tonight on NBC -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 13:00:26 (GMT)

__ __ Way -:- Re:Special Edition tonight on NBC -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 14:08:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joey -:- Re:Special Edition tonight on NBC -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 15:43:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ Runamok -:- Moon -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 14:40:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Joey -:- Moon, guns and m's virtues -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 15:32:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Moon, guns and m's virtues -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 19:38:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Moon, guns and m's virtues -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 20:16:22 (GMT)

Robbie -:- What are you ex-premies perspective of Knowledge? -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:14:02 (GMT)

__ AJW -:- So why the snot gobbling and toe kissing? (nt) -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 17:50:47 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- You mean the toe gobbling and snot kissing? (nt) -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 18:06:19 (GMT)

__ David -:- Here is an honest answer -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 12:42:21 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- and HERE is another one ! -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 13:59:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ Bjørn -:- My honest opinion, Jean Michel -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 15:36:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Rawat's honest promises and declarations -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 16:45:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- Rawat's honest promises and declarations -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 00:24:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Great, finally I understand your point! -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 07:42:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- I hope you understand this -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 08:16:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Re:TM Mantra -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 17:39:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I understand! -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 09:24:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- I understand! -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 10:19:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I understand! -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 13:09:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- I dont understand! -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 15:51:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Why I've broken my oath? Rawat is a liar! -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 16:36:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Well said, once again JM! -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 19:34:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Oh yeah, JM I have a question -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 19:37:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- My email -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 22:08:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Thanks (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 14:42:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- Who is a liar! -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 19:28:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I've actually SEEN HIM ! -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 22:12:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Are you a little slow, a cult member,... what? -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 20:58:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- what wall are you off Jim? -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 21:06:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Great answer, Bjorn -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 22:02:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- YES, it IS necessary! -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 20:03:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- Between me and Jean Michel -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 21:19:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- No, it's between us and M -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 15:05:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Thanks to Mike and Jim -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 22:21:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Okay, Mike, I should have read your post first (nt -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 21:02:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Hey.... great 'Mr. Minds' think alike... -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 14:47:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Ah, the oath! Long time ago. Who was it to? (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:34:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Rawat's honest promises and declarations -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 00:40:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ G -:- his declaration -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 16:36:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- My honest nasal cavity, Bjørn. -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 15:51:36 (GMT)

__ Robbie -:- Hi -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 08:17:30 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- really sounds stupid -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 20:41:08 (GMT)

__ __ Scott T. -:- Hi -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 15:41:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ (Sir) Dave -:- My magical thinking -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 19:49:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Hey hey, it's magic! -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 16:48:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- My paper -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 20:10:39 (GMT)

__ __ Jerry -:- Hi -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 11:55:20 (GMT)

__ Phred -:- Aren't you Rob? -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 00:17:42 (GMT)

__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Aren't you Rob? (I had the exact same thought!) -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 00:56:02 (GMT)

__ G -:- Knowledge to you is simply about feeling good? -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 23:35:52 (GMT)

__ Pauline Premie -:- You are SO not understanding -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 22:10:01 (GMT)

__ __ Robbie -:- 'Pauline premie' why pretend to be a premie? -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 22:24:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ blood boils -:- ALL PREMIES ARE JUST PRETENDING ................. -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 22:44:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Robbie -:- I agree Blood boils -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 23:26:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- I agree Blood boils -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 23:54:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Hey.... I always thought -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:09:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ blood boils -:- no that is not what I mean -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 23:37:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ alpha_o -:- M encouraged this........... -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 22:59:10 (GMT)

__ Robbie -:- Funny! A simple question and no straight answer -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 21:31:13 (GMT)

__ __ Jerry -:- Fine, here's a straight answer -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 00:25:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ SB -:- Fine, here's a straight answer -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 05:02:21 (GMT)

__ __ JHB -:- Funny! A simple question and no straight answer -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 22:57:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ Robbie -:- Funny! A simple question and no straight answer -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 23:18:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Funny! A simple question and no straight answer -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 00:20:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ G -:- 'Search for this Knowledge everywhere' -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 23:45:00 (GMT)

__ __ Mike -:- A straight answer to your questionable question -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 21:51:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ Robbie -:- Thanks for your answer Mike -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 22:19:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Mike -:- Moreover, it wasn't that.... -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 15:20:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Hugh -:- Wake Up With a Smile -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 05:04:33 (GMT)

__ Ax-Murderer -:- Yes, Robbie, Yes! -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:42:35 (GMT)

__ JHB -:- What are you ex-premies perspective of Knowledge? -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:33:13 (GMT)

__ __ Lord Gnome -:- Frontal lobes -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:38:43 (GMT)

__ __ Robbie -:- John I am just curios, and I understand english -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:37:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ JHB -:- John I am just curios, and I understand english -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:53:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Robbie -:- John, the purpose of the Forum? -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 21:04:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- John, the purpose of the Forum? -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 21:12:48 (GMT)

__ cq -:- ... ex-premies perspective of Knowledge? -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:19:51 (GMT)

__ __ Robbie -:- cq, I asked a sincere question -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:34:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ Dr. Kingsfield -:- This is a tremendously important question... -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 22:25:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ blood boils -:- knowledge is fancy window dressing..... -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 22:01:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- and you got a sincer answer: K is the key to the: -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:40:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Trixie -:- Rob is just Curious! asking a sincere question??? -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 05:28:59 (GMT)

Jerry -:- Seductive Poison -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 19:25:32 (GMT)

__ blood boils -:- Poison...thanx for comments & research (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:32:22 (GMT)

I Am Bill W. -:- Divine Intervention -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 16:41:48 (GMT)

__ EV-ex -:- Divine Intervention -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 18:10:56 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- And here's what Dettmers says about THAT -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 18:03:56 (GMT)

__ __ G -:- Will Michael Dettmers state the following -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 19:38:41 (GMT)

__ __ JW -:- Question -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 18:36:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ x#%*! -:- You wanted an out and out lie Joe? -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 19:35:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Touchy subject eh? -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 17:33:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Hey Anth do you remember -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 21:02:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Hey Anth do you remember -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 21:10:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JW -:- Do you know how ridiculous you sound? -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:12:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ x#%*! -:- Ridiculous to you? I'm not worried. -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 00:10:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- I Guess you have no clue how ridiculous you sound. -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 18:32:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ x#%*! -:- You don't get it do you? -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 18:44:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- I'm hurt -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 22:37:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pauline Premie -:- Show THAT love, oh my brother! -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 22:20:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Do I count? -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 20:13:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ x#%*! -:- Do I count? -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 23:31:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Do I count? -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 23:51:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ x#%*! -:- Do I count? -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 23:56:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- You don't get it do you? -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 20:07:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I'm incredulous -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 19:36:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Objectivity? -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 17:41:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ x#%*! -:- Objectivity? -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 18:35:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Why don't you answer my questions? -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 09:52:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Why don't you answer my questions? -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 11:43:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're NOT a 'cardboard premie stereotype'? -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 19:45:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Modest Mouse -:- Such a powerful incarnation is x#%*! -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 19:37:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Ridiculous to you? I'm not worried. -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 00:30:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- A good question, JHB -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 15:31:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- It's 'Mishler' (there's no 'c') (nt) -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 16:30:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Sorry, thanks Jim! -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 21:24:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Shut up, stupid! -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 19:54:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ x#%*! -:- I'm waiting -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 23:23:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- waiting for the lion to shag the lamb? (nt) -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 17:43:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- I'm waiting -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 01:02:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Shut up, stupid! -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:36:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ referee -:- better take it outside boys, don't want any inocen -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 00:22:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Good question -- but we didn't talk about that -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 18:38:00 (GMT)

__ JHB -:- To Mike Dettmers - Can you confirm -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 17:24:42 (GMT)

__ __ Selene -:- thanks JHB -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 04:34:11 (GMT)

__ JW -:- Michael????? -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 17:13:54 (GMT)

__ __ Marianne -:- To Bill W. -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 17:31:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ x#%*! -:- To Marianne -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 19:43:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ AJW -:- drinking problem -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 17:49:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ SB -:- x#%*!: Questions. -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 02:14:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ EV-ex -:- Two questions for YOU -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 19:53:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ trixie -:- Either Bill W. or Michael D have it wrong. Or else -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 18:45:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Bill W. -:- Either Bill W. or Michael D have it wrong. Or else -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 02:13:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ x#%*! -:- So it was second or third hand information -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 18:47:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Bill W. -:- So it was second or third hand information -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 19:01:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ x#%*! -:- So it was second or third hand information -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 21:27:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bill W. -:- So it was second or third hand information -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 01:24:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- So it was second or third hand information -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 23:19:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ x#%*! -:- So it was second or third hand information -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 23:44:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- So it was second or third hand information -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 00:03:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- So it was second or third hand information -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 00:03:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Thanks, Bill -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 18:38:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ trixie -:- Either Bill W. or Michael D have it wrong. Or else -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 09:20:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ Susan -:- To Bill W. -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 17:36:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Susan -:- For those who want to envision this better -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 18:29:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- San Ysidro-or dis ynas?(or dis winos? whiners?)nt -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 19:33:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Lord Gnome -:- Vot??(nt) -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:33:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Backwards, milud(nt)...should be on the next stage -:- Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:43:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- non-seq. - pls ck 'blow in my ear' - inactive (st) -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 03:15:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- non-seq. - pls ck 'blow in my ear' - inactive (st) -:- Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 17:58:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- non-seq. - pls ck 'blow in my ear' - inactive (st) -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 03:38:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- 'Firecracker that never goes off...' -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 17:54:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- I'm developing a craving for fireworks! ( not) -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 01:32:39 (GMT)

Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 22:35:37 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Special Edition tonight on NBC Message:

Hi: Just saw an ad for a Special Edition segment tonight on some of the new cults or religious groups. Looks like a sort of case study involving a young women who was ensnared. Thought I'd mention it in case anyone is interested, or has more details. --Scott

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 13:00:26 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Special Edition tonight on NBC Message:

Sorry, it airs at 12:00 noon EDT on Wednesday, April 6, on CNBC.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 14:08:31 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Re:Special Edition tonight on NBC Message:

It aired last night in my area (the Midwest). I happened to catch a part of it profiling an 18 year old woman in 1993 who became a Moonie and dropped all contact with her family until they took drastic measures. Happy ending for that particular woman and her family, but a Moonie representative came on and said that their organization is learning from past mistakes. If Rawat saw the report I'm sure he's jealous of the big mansion Moon has in New York - more impressive than his digs in Malibu. These cults seem to still be getting new members.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 15:43:30 (GMT) From: Joey Email: None To: Way Subject: Re:Special Edition tonight on NBC Message:

These cults seem to still be getting new members. Way, According to experts affiliated with the American Family Foundation, the hottest cult on the scene in North America is the International Church of Christ, sometimes also referred to as the 'Boston Movement'. Apparently, it's recruiting members at the alarming rate comparable to the Maharishi's TM in the 70's.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 14:40:35 (GMT) From: Runamok Email: None To: Way Subject: Moon Message:

Moon owns the Washington Times in some form or another. Rawatt should prob be more jealous of Moon's business skills than his mansion per se.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 15:32:12 (GMT) From: Joey Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Moon, guns and m's virtues Message:

He also owns an arms and munitions plant. At least m makes his money in academic textbooks and NOT guns. To the extent that we currently know. I guess that's SOMETHING to be said in m's favor. Alright, SO I AM being a little sarcastic :) Sue me! :::))

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 19:38:16 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Joey Subject: Moon, guns and m's virtues Message:

'At least m makes his money in academic textbooks and NOT guns. To the extent that we currently know. ' Joey, a straight question, (engendered since your and 'Occasional Observer''s recent dumping on Hal): I'll repeat: 'At least m makes his money in academic textbooks and NOT guns'# And where are YOU coming from in this, exactly?

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 20:16:22 (GMT) From: Joey Email: None To: cq Subject: Moon, guns and m's virtues Message:

Joey, a straight question, (engendered since your and 'Occasional Observer''s recent dumping on Hal): I've responded to your post in a thread further down on the page. I believe a good case can be made as to how Hal has been dumping on his fellow participants on this forum, and not vice versa. Now I DID say At least m makes his money in academic textbooks and NOT guns... I was referring to Amtext of course, and I also said that I was being a 'little sarcastic'. So that would be the place where I'm coming from...a place of a little sarcasm. And I trust that it's obvious to all that m has more streams of income than just Amtext, just as Moon makes money not just through his arms and munitions plant. In m's case, I still believe that the money he sucks off premies is still the most significant. And I hope you see this as a straight answer to your straight question. I also apologize if the my sarcasm in the prior post threw you off.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:14:02 (GMT) From: Robbie Email: None To: Everyone Subject: What are you ex-premies perspective of Knowledge? Message:

To me it is simply about feeling good. Period.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 17:50:47 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Robbie Subject: So why the snot gobbling and toe kissing? (nt) Message:

Anthony means nectar and darshan of course children.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 18:06:19 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: AJW Subject: You mean the toe gobbling and snot kissing? (nt) Message:

You mean the toe gobbling and snot kissing? (nt) PS, children, Anth is not the only naughty, naughty man who sometimes says 'nt' but then ...

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 12:42:21 (GMT) From: David Email: vpost3@hotmail.com To: Robbie Subject: Here is an honest answer Message:

There is a simple mind calming excercise which is concentrating on the breath. (There are also add-ons such as nectar, music etc) However, this has been blown up out of all proportions into a fantasmagorical and self perpetuating cult where meditation became not a thing of relaxation, but a practise that is riddled with guilt, fear, worry, anxiety, failure, judgement, pressure and many other negative feelings. Who associated all of this with a relaxation technique? Maharaji and his 'great souls' the mahatmas and more recently, the super-premies who inspire fear, loathing, hatred, and one-upmanship amongst people. Knowledge, my dear fellow, is a heavy trip. It's a horrible trip and I would never ever try to persuade anyone to join Maharaji's nasty little game. It has brought more unhappiness to people than happiness. It has screwed people's heads up and their lives too. It is a totally evil and insidious little mind fucking trip and many of us who got into it in a big way have been scarred for life.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 13:59:26 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: David Subject: and HERE is another one ! Message:

Here's one of the Rawat's knowledge feature that seduced me and quite some other persons: One of Mr Rawat's proclamations ! Prempal Rawat's PROCLAMATION FOR 1975 (Reproduced from Divine Times Volume 4, Issue 1, February 1, 1975) In this world, the question has already been asked. The world has already started to face the problems, the problems which are vital for the human race. There is no need to discuss the problems, but I would like to present my opinion. In the midst of all this, I still sincerely think that this Knowledge, the Knowledge of God, the Knowledge of our Creator, is our solution. Many people might not think so, and carry a completely different opinion, but my opinion is that since man came on this planet earth, he has always been taking from it. Remember, this planet Earth is not infinite, it is finite, and though it has a lot to give, it is limited. Maybe now we can somehow manage to stagger along, cutting our standards of living, cutting gas, reducing the speed limit more, but the next very terrifying question is ' What about the future? ' I think this Knowledge which I have to offer this world, free of charge, is the answer. For if everybody can understand that everybody has a brother and sister, and this world is a gift, not a human-owned planet, and have the true understanding of such, we'll definitely bring peace, tranquillity, love and Grace, which we need so badly. I urge this world to try. I do not claim to be God, but do claim I can establish peace on this Earth by our Lord's Grace, and everyone's joint effort. Sant Ji Maharaj

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 15:36:59 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: My honest opinion, Jean Michel Message:

is that you are a mentally disturbed dwarf. I would say, this is a rather impressive speach, bringing up really important issues. If he fails to complete his declaration is one thing, but at least I think he made a try. By the way I thought 'the peace bomb' was from 1971 when Maharaji was just a teenager.If I am wrong, I apology. But anyway you have many times revealed yourself to be a liar and a person not to be trusted.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 16:45:25 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Rawat's honest promises and declarations Message:

I don't mind you calling me a dwarf or anything. Maybe I'm a liar too, your appreciation. But the truth is that I BELIEVED in everything the 'master' said, BECAUSE I HAD a beautiful experience ! In case you don't remember, here's a good display of some of His most famous claims, promises, declarations and advice to premies (Including 'I swear on the Bible that I will establish peace in this world'): Prempal Rawat's most famous quotes. Who's honest ? Mr Rawat ? Who are you ? God ? No God ? What is the experience you're talking about ?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 00:24:17 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Rawat's honest promises and declarations Message:

What pisses me off with you is that you exposed the techniques of Knowledge on the internet. I think everybody who receive Knowledge made an oath not to show the techniques to anyone. In my opinion, to take an oath, is something you do to your self and to the person who makes you take that oath. I do not mind if you dont like Maharaji. But I do mind that you take a step to expose the techniques. In no way I can see that this is any of your business. To me it reveals the nature of a traitor. And I am not shure you really know what the consequenses this action might be for those who are searching for something in their life, and have been exposed to 'your meditation techniques' if they later should choose to aks for Maharajis Knowledge. I dont think it is fair for them.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 07:42:54 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Great, finally I understand your point! Message:

What pisses me off with you is that you exposed the techniques of Knowledge on the internet. OK, I can understand your point. The problem with this is that these techniques are no secret stuff, as I've exposed on my website. They've been detailed in many books, taught by many teachers, and even described in details in several Indian holy scriptures ! Never mentioning any need to keep them secret !!!! This problems is now Rawat's. IF he thinks there are some justifications or reasons to hide them, - I still can't understand his point if he's truly honest - , then leave it to him to claim his copyrights! Why is that issue so important for you? Are you also in the business of teaching them?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 08:16:01 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: I hope you understand this Message:

Jean Michel I am not into teaching. Believe it or not, for me to receive Knowlegde was a highlight in my life. What I experienced, was so incredible. I did not only see that there is a light within me, I saw the whole univers totally filled with light. Shining like a 1000 suns is to me the greatest understatement of the history of mankind. I was innocent and did not understand a lot. I still do not claim to understand a lot. But if I would have been told the techniques of Knowlegde by anyone, I doubt I would be open to even have any benefits from receiving Knowlegde. My point is that for those who seek, and it is their own choice to seek, you destroy something that might be an extremely beautiful thing. I think there are none of your business to do what you do. Many years ago, I received a Mantra by Maharesh Yogi. I agreed not to tell anyone the mantra. I never did. I do not believe in his system, but I accept that some people might find something in his techniques. If I published the mantras, it is my opinion, I would ruin their possibility to get anything out of it. None of us are the keepers of truth. And bottom line we are only responsible to ourself. I would respect you more if you had the courage to delete the tequniqes on the net.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 17:39:11 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Re:TM Mantra Message:

Bjorn, During my Knowledge session, Mahatma Jagdeo asked all the aspirants if they had ever practiced TM. A few people, including myself, raised our hands. Jagdeo then told us that before we could receive Knowledge that day, we had to tell him out loud in front of everyone what our mantra was. We all did so.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 09:24:09 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: I understand! Message:

I would respect you more if you had the courage to delete the tequniqes on the net. Don't count on that ! Maybe I could come to an agreement with Mr Rawat himself, as he's the one who's responsible for this .... My opinion is that any interested person should be able to see both sides of the coins. One side is what Rawat says during the indoctrination (aspirant) process, the other one is what people who disagree with him have to say. Like for any other issue I guess. What's so special about 'knowledge' that it should't be discussed openly? One important thing you forget to mention: Rawat himself told several times that the techniques are 'nothing' without (the grace - the help) of the 'master'. Then why bother. He himself said that the techniques have been described in many books, never mentioning which one. My suggestion: leave it to him. He is the 'master' and the one responsible for his 'teaching'. And he doesn't seem to bother. I wrote him a few time, and he never answered ... Then why do YOU bother?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 10:19:18 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: I understand! Message:

I bother becaus I dont think it is fair to those who seek. When I read the posts here at the forum and compare it with the experiences I had, it is very likely that there is something you might call grace. I cant explain it otherwise. To me Knowledge is an oportunity. According to Maharaji, it is like a mirror that shows you excactly how you are.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 13:09:56 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: I understand! Message:

Then why can't you accept those people challenging your belief? Fairness is also telling 'those who seek' that quite some persons disagree ..... and let them make up their mind THEMSELVES. Don't forget that me and quite some other exes ACTUALLY HAD the same experience you're having! Rawat even made me a part-time instructor, like many other premies, BECAUSE I HAD that experience we're talking about! According to Maharaji, it is like a mirror that shows you excactly how you are I don't believe in this anymore. I'm sorry.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 15:51:09 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: I dont understand! Message:

Jean Midhel It is OK that people challenge my belief. I dont find it Ok that even this pages exist. I dont find i ok that you have braken your oath. To me personally it doesnt matter, probably not for Maharaji either, but for those who seek, it is my opinion that it makes a great difference. You did not have to do that. It is not fair to them and it is not fair to yourself. I am just an ordinary premie. You have been an instructor. Could you try to make a sensible explanation of this phenomena: Sometimes I feel joyful inside, and I sort of cherish every breath. Sometimes I dont feel a thing? What is the difference and why. It is not about the circumstanses in my physical life. I even sometimes feel totally content, when things absolutely is not going my way. And sometimes I made a fortune, and I didnt a feel a thing. To me this is the mistery, I never can figure out. The only thing I can say, is there are a lot none of us know.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 16:36:05 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Why I've broken my oath? Rawat is a liar! Message:

because I've made it to someone who lied to me! Like when you're married or actually have a contract with someone. If the other part is not fair or sincere, then the oath is not worth anything! Mr Rawat is a big liar, and keeps lying everyday, when he tries to ensnare 'seekers' in his devotional path, pretending it is not! That's all I have to say. I could go on with other lies and crimes, one is enough for me. End of the discussion.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 19:34:14 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Well said, once again JM! Message:

JM: You've had THAT experience, I had THAT experience prior to ever knowing that M existed, others have had THAT experience without any 'intervention,' too!!!! Some people had THAT experience while under the influence of psychedelics, some had THAT experience through meditation, some had THAT experience spontaneously...... They ALL share the same descriptive metaphors and ALL had the same results in the people that I got to actually meet. So what does that tell us? Maybe that M ISN'T the 'source' or even a 'conduit' of THAT experience???? So why should I show gratitude to a guy that had NOTHING to do with THAT experience? Why should I think he is anything special? Why should I think that his oh-so-special 'techniques' and grace had anything to do with it? He wasn't even in the US (I think) when it happened to me..... These guys think that they have a lock on THAT experience..... sh_t, most of them haven't even come close to it, despite the 'intervention' of their oh-so-holy living-lord!

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 19:37:52 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: JM Subject: Oh yeah, JM I have a question Message:

JM: I have a question that I want to ask you.... It needs to be an email, though. I think you'll get a kick out of the implications of my question. Is you email address published?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 22:08:55 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr To: Mike Subject: My email Message:

here it is !!

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 14:42:40 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Thanks (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 19:28:53 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Who is a liar! Message:

Honestly Jean Michel, This is pathetic. You sound like a little brat, saying since he lied, I will lie. Did Mahraji lie? I really ask the question. If you say something you believe in your self, is that a lie? Actually I have heard most of Maharajis programs, I am not really stupid, and I am rather sceptical. Honestly I never caught Maharaji in a lie. But I caught you lying a few times. Actually, you dont really need to be a genious to see clearly everyday a lot of lies in this Forum. Recently a couple of major lies have been exposed. The mistress story and Maharajis alchohol problem. So these lies occurring here at the Forum everyday, they are OK? Why? Do you say to any of your fellow believers here, please stop lying? In norway we even have a word for people with such an attitude. You say you broke your oath because he lied. But as I said before;an oath is a promise both to your self and to another person. So when someone else is lying does that give you the right to lie to your self? Is it really nessecary for that purpose to make an attemt to destroy a possibility for innocent people? I honestly think you should think about what you are doing. END OF DISCUSSION.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 22:12:38 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: I've actually SEEN HIM ! Message:

drinking more than any regular man could stand! Not been in his bedroom with Monica, but heard lots of stories from excellent source ! Specially from another jealous one .....

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 20:58:33 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Are you a little slow, a cult member,... what? Message:

You say you broke your oath because he lied. But as I said before;an oath is a promise both to your self and to another person. Business promoter gets his neighbour to invest his life's savings in the promoter's new company on the basis that his 'top secret' invention is, in fact, the world's first perpetual motion machine and will make them both billions. He shows the neighbour the design on his promise to never tell anyone. Years later, the promoter is still trying to get investors but no longer calls his gizmo a 'perpetual motion machine'. Instead, it's just a good motor. The neighbour tries to track him down but he's since moved and, although he's still putting on investment seminars, he refuses to take the neighbour's calls or ever talk with him. The neighbour thinks he's been defrauded and wants to go to the police. Query: Is he morally allowed to show them the design in spite of his promise?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 21:06:25 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Jim Subject: what wall are you off Jim? Message:

n

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 22:02:53 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Great answer, Bjorn Message:

Look, I don't know how they do things in Norway but here, in North America, it's considered very rude to talk about walls. Might even be illegal. Just thought you might want to pass that along to your fellow cult members. Great answer otherwise, though.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 20:03:31 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: YES, it IS necessary! Message:

Look bjorn: You seem to think that JM still believes in M! He doesn't!!!! Neither do I! He's a fraud, get it? He said he was god on numerous occasions and then has recanted and said otherwise..... Is that a lie? YOU BET IT IS! If you've been around for as long as you say, then you KNOW he said he was god and you KNOW that he recanted! SO...... You are lying, too! You said that you never caught M in a lie..... that's NOT TRUE! You HAVE caught him in a lie..... the BIGGEST lie.... the SUPREME lie.... get it? You asked, '...Is it really nessecary for that purpose to make an attemt to destroy a possibility for innocent people?' The answer is YES! Yes, it's necessary to PROTECT 'innocent people' from the likes of your.... ahem... savior! It's necessary to protect innocent people from the LIES that your lard has perpetrated on others! It's necessary to protect innocent people from the GREED that your master exhibits in his insatiable appetite for things material (at YOUR expense)! Let me ask you a question, then...... What kind of a person would you think I am if I KNOWINGLY allowed someone to defraud your own grandmother out of her savings and then stood by and did nothing about it? Even if I 'swore an oath' to never tell on the person committing the fraud! Tell me, would you think I was a 'good' person because I kept my oath under those circumstances? If you say 'YES,' then you are more lost than you could ever comprehend and you are wasting your time here! If you say 'NO,' then you had better look at your accusations concerning JM! What he did and what he does takes REAL GUTS, especially when you consider the fact that he was an instructor! JM, if you are reading this.... my hat's off to you once again!

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 21:19:52 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Mike Subject: Between me and Jean Michel Message:

Are you stupid or something. I had a discussion with JM. End of discussion OK.

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 15:05:18 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: No, it's between us and M Message:

Bjorn-yesterday: What, did I get a little too close to the truth for you? I asked a perfectly clear question concerning the ethics of the situation and you respond with this crap..... TYPICAL premie cult-think! If you can't dazzle them with your circular-logic and word-play nonsense, RUN AWAY! Are you a coward, bjorn? It sure sounds like it from your response to my post and Jim's post! It IS NOT between you and JM, it's between US and the FRAUD! You are just some bothersome little fly-on-the-wall that tries to distract the purpose of this forum. Keep on posting, bjorn, you PROVE your affiliation with a cult everytime you open your mouth. Do you think the average 'innocent' person can't see through your foundless ramblings concerning JM and others here? You haven't said anything substantive since your arrival. So, go ahead and run away again! It has obviously become a habit with you and I don't care if you break it or not. So.... go sit under your 'blankey,' squeeze your eyeballs, taste your snot, listen to your tinnitus, 'feel' air going into your lungs and then pretend that YOU KNOW something that no one in the Self-Realization fellowship (and many, many, many other organizations) don't know........ Did you know that the techniques are all taught by SRF? Did you know that they teach them as a 'beginning' form of meditation? Did you know that just about all Radhasoami organizations teach them and have been since long, long, long before the birth of your lard? OH, YES..... one more.... Even Madame Blativatski (sp?) devoted an entire book to the music-technique? Read it..... it's a better description of the technique (and it's results) than you ever got from M! She was a rather famous psychic-type, not a radio-salami master!

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 22:21:01 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Thanks to Mike and Jim Message:

I think there is no point to take this discussion any further. Readers will appreciate ....... and make their own opinion!! Thank you guys, you're saving me time !!

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 21:02:27 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Mike Subject: Okay, Mike, I should have read your post first (nt Message:

dd

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 14:47:31 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hey.... great 'Mr. Minds' think alike... Message:

Jim: At least he responded to your post. He just blew me off! We must be getting a little to close to the truth for him!

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:34:13 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Ah, the oath! Long time ago. Who was it to? (nt) Message:

Ah, the oath! Long time ago. Who was it to? (nt)

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 00:40:26 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Rawat's honest promises and declarations Message:

Bjorn, The meditation techniques have a postivie effect regardless of how they were taught. This has been proved by David Lane in his experiments with students who were unprepared for what they were being taught. It is also supported by those of us here who continue to meditate and have positive experiences in spite of saying bad things about Maharaji. The techniques are also taught in many other places. So your belief that breaking the vow at the knowledge session is somehow an evil thing has no credence. Maharaji lied to me so I have no obligation to obey him. Don't you agree? John.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 16:36:29 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: his declaration Message:

Well, the ways things are going, it certainly looks like he will fail to complete his declaration. So much so that he recently said 'Does this world need to change, I don't know.' Sounds like he has given up. As for just how much he really tried, I would say not much. The 'peace bomb' was from 1970, when he was 'just' a teenager proclaiming himself to be God. Funny how he doesn't speak much about how foolish he was as a teenager, perhaps because he doesn't yet realise how foolish he was. Perhaps because he still fancies himself as such, giving darshan and such.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 15:51:36 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: My honest nasal cavity, Bjørn. Message:

Bjørn: I'm sure I speak for most of us when I say that we really appreciate your extraordinary honesty, as well as your incisive literary judgment. BTW, what's your opinion of the Balkan dilemma? --Scott

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 08:17:30 (GMT) From: Robbie Email: None To: Everybody Subject: Hi Message:

Hi everybody I was just curios and thinking; 'Are ex-premies really, really stupid' For what I understand, ex-premies writing here had Knowledge and practiced for 5 - 10 - 15 20 or 25 years. If they never had a any experience from it, why did they go on for so long? You must admit that this fact, really sounds stupid. It is like unsuccessfully trying to tap water from a faucet for 25 years. And then for a few years blame the faucet for being empty. May be the trick was to unscrew the faucet. I mean I had an indeed very deep experience when I received Knowlegde, I did a lot of 'service' for about one year and the results of my efforts were not very promising. I hanged in there though. I remeber at one program, where we met Maharaji, all my freinds were smiling and seemed to be filled with joy. I felt nothing. I remeber I said to my self or to my imaginative Maharaji; if this is it, this is nothing for me. So I kind of asked from the bottom of my heart 'please show me' In a miraculous way, Maharaji unexpectedly showed up and I had a chance to say a few words to him. Later on a few occations, I was kind of in the same dilemma, and every time more or less the same thing happened. expect at these times it was during 'meditation' or generally in my life. Today I cannot brag about my ability to meditate, but I do not have great expectations. For me, I am feeling good within. I think that in it self is a great achievemnt for me. Honestly if I realized that Knowlegde was only some techniques, I would not care to continue with the Knowledge. But I cannot explain what has happened to me in a sensible and rational way. If I could, it would be really easy. Thanks for your replies though, it suprised me that very very few bothered to answer straight and sincere in their own words. I am not Rob and I respect and understand your frustrations. However I would hope that there were more honesty and sincerety appearing in this forum. Bye Your sincere Robbie

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 20:41:08 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Robbie Subject: really sounds stupid Message:

you say of ex-premies: 'If they never had a any experience from it('Knowledge'), why did they go on for so long?' Robbie, If your practice of meditation brings you good things, then, you know how to enjoy. So enjoy, regardless of what is said about your meditation, or about your teacher. The important thing is that find what is good for you. Here you will find people who don't like the one who you learned the meditation from. So, naturally, there must be a reason. If you don't want to find out that reason, or those reasons - then why post here? BUT, if you DO want to find out - All sorts of people post here. Some enjoyed the meditation, some didn't. Some enjoyed kissing M's feet, some didn't. Some think that M and meditation are one and the same. Some think that the way forward means leaving the teachers behind them. Whatever way you think is best for you ... you decide. (my mistake was to let someone/ones else decide for me) Good luck, Chris

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 15:41:07 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Robbie Subject: Hi Message:

Robbie: I remeber I said to my self or to my imaginative Maharaji; if this is it, this is nothing for me. So I kind of asked from the bottom of my heart 'please show me' In a miraculous way, Maharaji unexpectedly showed up and I had a chance to say a few words to him. Knowing what I know about Maharaji, construing these two events as connected is equivalent to making the assumption that Bill Clinton had something to do with whether I'm getting sufficient sleep at night. Those of us who have looked carefully at the phenomenon of cult activity call this 'magical thinking,' and it serves the interests of cult leaders very well. I do not attribute the experiences I had while in DLM to anything that Maharaji may have done or not done. If you'd like a relatively objective perspective on the overall religious movement that gave rise to Maharaji you should check out David Lane's website at UC SanDiego. You'll find that your attribution is pretty common, and that people merely shown the techniques without any falderal about 'perfect masters' had the same kinds of meditation experiences. Clearly they did not associate these with some little potentate. That's the bottom line. If I want to feel good I get as much utility from reading a good book, but I still do the meditation from time to time. Don't know what it is, but I figure it must be some sort of cognitive neural wiring that either evolved or was 'designed.' Take your pick. Either way Maharaji had nothing to do with it, unless the universe is a great deal more perverse than I imagine. --Scott

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 19:49:27 (GMT) From: (Sir) Dave Email: vpost3@hotmail.com To: Scott T. Subject: My magical thinking Message:

I can relate to that, Scott. I can also relate to what you said some time ago about being tired of M. It was and still is an unecessarily heavy trip which is far removed from peace of mind or happiness. Interesting that I have had an exact opposite experience to Robbie's, some years ago. I kind of prayed and asked God whether Maharaji was the real thing or not. I got an answer. Perhaps I am also into 'magical thinking' as you've described it but what the hell, if premies can do it then so can I! I have prayed lots of times and asked God about Maharaji and knowledge. I have got answers but then the answers I get may be different to what other people get. That's certain. I once asked God, 'Do I have to do this meditation thing to be close to You?' and I got a pretty quick answer on that one too. What happened with me was that when I realised Maharaji wasn't God (yeah I know it sounds silly now), I just transfered all the talking to Maharaji to a piece of paper marked, 'God'. I just wrote down the word 'God' on a piece of paper and there He was. I could have used a box of matches or a marble or something but God written on a piece of paper torn out of a notebook did it for me. When I felt like I needed it, I took the piece of paper with God written on it and did pranam to it. And you know what? It was more powerful than any darshan!

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 16:48:07 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: (Sir) Dave Subject: Hey hey, it's magic! Message:

Sir Dave: Re: I just wrote down the word 'God' on a piece of paper and there He was. I could have used a box of matches or a marble or something but God written on a piece of paper torn out of a notebook did it for me. When I felt like I needed it, I took the piece of paper with God written on it and did pranam to it. And you know what? It was more powerful than any darshan! Reminds me of a paper I once wrote for an assignment to analyze the meaning of Dickens' *A Tale of Two Cities*. I didn't have time, so as a joke I wrote on a piece of paper 'Only God knows.' The paper was returned with the comment: 'God gets an 'A.' You get an 'F.'' --Scott

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 20:10:39 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: My paper Message:

Scott: My paper on a similar subject had the title, 'HOW TO GET AN F.' I got an 'A!' I sh_t you not! The professor thought it was creative...... Little did he know that I was just too damned tired and brain-dead to write one.....

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 11:55:20 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Robbie Subject: Hi Message:

If they never had a any experience from it, why did they go on for so long? You must admit that this fact, really sounds stupid. I won't argue with that. My only defense is that, somehow, Maharaji got into my head and made me believe that he was the only way. What you also need to understand is that I didn't meditate more than I did. But I would always come back to it in the hopes that some sort of miracle would happen that would convince me that Maharaji was who I believed him to be, and who he presented himself as. There would be long stretches of time where I wouldn't practice the techniques, or go to satsang or to video events, and more of my life was spent in this sort of limbo, where I was trying to motivate myself to get in gear than where I actually was in gear. It's sort of like excercising. You keep telling yourself to get up and do it, but it's rare that you actually get around to it, and then when you do, it's only for short bursts at a time. This is the way it was for me, Robbie. It was more of a belief system where I thought of Knowledge as my salvation, and that one day it would all fall into place where the scales would fall from my eyes and I would, finally, have a breakthrough and get on that 'straight and narrow', once and for all, and for good, thankful to M for all eternity as a result. This never happenned, and, yes, you're right, it was very stupid of me to believe it ever would.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 00:17:42 (GMT) From: Phred Email: None To: Robbie Subject: Aren't you Rob? Message:

from a forum or two ago? Anyway, I have the same feelings of joy and pain that I had when I was deep into the cult. Life is whatever you make it.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 00:56:02 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Phred Subject: Aren't you Rob? (I had the exact same thought!) Message:

Rob, you fiend! People, it really doesn't matter if it is Rob or not. They are all the same. They are all just night of the living dead zombies. They are tentacles belonging to Maharaji. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it was not a sodden and drunken Maharaji himself ranting and raving while spilling his drink all over his PowerMac. The damage done and all they can do is deny it as loudly as they can.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 23:35:52 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Robbie Subject: Knowledge to you is simply about feeling good? Message:

So you're saying that, to you, it has nothing to do with Maharaji? 'Keeping in touch' has nothing to do with it? 'Participation' has nothing to do with it? You really think that? Has meditation sometimes helped me to feel good? Yes, but 'Knowledge', as defined by Maharaji, involves more than just meditation. My involvement with Maharaji often had a detrimental effect on me. Meditation often was frustrating due to too high expectations resulting from Maharaji's hype. As for the rest of it, well, do you want to know? Maharaji and those around him have often hindered the beneficial effects of meditation by their words and deeds. Also, IMO, his teaching of the techniques needs improvement.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 22:10:01 (GMT) From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: Robbie Subject: You are SO not understanding Message:

I remember when I first got knowledge, back in 1972, I thought it was just about 'getting high.' But, no. That's not what it's about at all. When I received knowledge, I was given a letter of welcome from Guru Maharaj Ji himself, who told me that now that I had knowledge, my mind was going to start bothering me. And boy did it ever! It was no fun, let me tell you, and it still isn't. I have to pray for grace constantly to keep my evil mind from torturing me with it's evil thoughts. Why, one time, when I lived in the ashram, I was tempted by Mahatma Gurucharanand to have SEX. Yes, SEX. So, what did I do? I went to Anne Johnston, and spoke with her about how dirty the satsang hall floor was, and how I should clean it with a toothbrush. And you know what? By doing that holy service my mind was quelled and just thinking of Anne Johnston removed all that filthy sexual desire, and although Gurucharanand chased me around the divine altar for about 20 minutes, I did not succumb, my feet were like wings and I was protected from the evils of the flesh. It was grace, pure grace. That's all I can say. I swear on a stack of Bagavad Gitas that this is true. So, Robbie, I think you need a knowledge review, and certainly to attend a 'participation meeting.'

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 22:24:52 (GMT) From: Robbie Email: None To: Pauline Premie Subject: 'Pauline premie' why pretend to be a premie? Message:

Every word you write reveals that you are just faking

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 22:44:57 (GMT) From: blood boils Email: None To: ROBBIE Subject: ALL PREMIES ARE JUST PRETENDING ................. Message:

The reason that you aren't amused is because you haven't realized that yet.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 23:26:03 (GMT) From: Robbie Email: None To: blood boils Subject: I agree Blood boils Message:

if you mean the true meaning of the word Premie= lover. To me I am trying to get something out of Knowledge and that might be a definition of Knowlegde commonly used. Anyone being in touch with Maharaji the last 10 years would never express herself as 'Pauline Premie'. I hope you have enough brain to understand that 'she' is just faking.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 23:54:45 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Robbie Subject: I agree Blood boils Message:

Gee, Robbie, thanks for filling me in. I always thought she was for real.

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:09:52 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Hey.... I always thought Message:

I thought we had PROMISED each other that we wouldn't fake spiritual orgasms..... PAULINE!!!! I'm surprised at you!!!! How could you?!?!?!?!?!?! Faking it??????? I'm SOOOO depressed! Thanks Robbie for telling us the truth!

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 23:37:32 (GMT) From: blood boils Email: None To: Robbie Subject: no that is not what I mean Message:

I mean that there is nothing to get out of K or M. They are empty past times. Go study with a real guru in a cave somewhere if you want to have an inner experience. M is a false teacher. Premies are pretending they are finding something.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 22:59:10 (GMT) From: alpha_o Email: None To: blood boils Subject: M encouraged this........... Message:

There is a well circulated story from years ago....some really important premie like John Miller or who even remembers or cares...went to M and admitted that he wasn't having any experience with K. M told him to FAKE IT supposedly if you fake it for long enough you then begin to believe it. The fate of many premies is that they have been lying to themsleves for so long that they are now embarassed to admit that they are actually spiritually impoverished

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 21:31:13 (GMT) From: Robbie Email: None To: Robbie Subject: Funny! A simple question and no straight answer Message:

Except may be for John. Thanks for your reply though. Although it sounded like very impersonal. As I understand from the posts from you guys,in your life for many year Knowlegde was a very important thing. What was Knowlegde for you then. What is your personal opinion about it now. Just the Knowledge? Did any of you like it? Do any of you still benefit from meditation? Did you learn anything from it. Do you still sometimes feel a peace and contentment inside. That was the kind of answer I was curious about.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 00:25:09 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Robbie Subject: Fine, here's a straight answer Message:

Do you still sometimes feel a peace and contentment inside. Yes, I do. But Knowledge has nothing to do with that, and meditation, for the most part, I find boring. I just did it because I thought it was my only pathway to enlightenment. I didn't practice Knowledge just to 'feel good', Robbie. I thought it was my salvation. I don't need Knowledge to 'feel good'. In fact, now that I no longer practice it, I feel good a lot more than when I did practice.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 05:02:21 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Fine, here's a straight answer Message:

Hi Jerry!! hey! that was my answer!!!!! LOL

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 22:57:27 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Robbie Subject: Funny! A simple question and no straight answer Message:

Robbie, I answered your question, so it's only fair if you answer mine. What do you think of Maharaji's claim that only he can teach this meditation, and that he is essential for any experience you get from it? Can you answer a straight question? John.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 23:18:16 (GMT) From: Robbie Email: None To: JHB Subject: Funny! A simple question and no straight answer Message:

John If I remeber correctly, Maharaji uses to say, Search for this Knowlegde everywhere. (And I dont think he means the meditation techiques). He continues; if you dont find it, come to me. As far as I am concerned, I found something I have not heard of you can get any other places. If you can, fine for me. Even if you may think I am faking, I hope you will respect my answer as this is my individual experience. If you never found anything in the Knowlegde, that is something between you and Maharaji, and I respect that.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 00:20:28 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Robbie Subject: Funny! A simple question and no straight answer Message:

So Robbie, You fall into my trap. Knowledge is not the meditation techniques then? So what is it? Divine Grace from your Lord maybe? A special understanding that Maharaji is the Lord Incarnate? A special understanding that the purpose of this life is Devotion? So what the fuck is knowledge if it's not four second-hand meditation techniques? You say it's between you and Maharaji. What about all those other devotees of all those other gurus who all say the same fucking thing? Are they deluded? Look you're in a cult and whatever perverted pleasure you get from your devotion to fatboy is a twisted perversion of real happiness and love. Remember, Robbie, I've been where you're squirming for 25 years. John.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 23:45:00 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Robbie Subject: 'Search for this Knowledge everywhere' Message:

Well, if that is what Maharaji said, then people should search these web sites, they will find the meditation techniques. They can try them on their own, and if they don't work, well, they can check out Maharaji to see if he has some voodoo power called 'grace' (or 'talent' as you call it) that can supercharge them. Of course, in doing so, they might get brainwashed, but maybe thats a gamble some people are willing to take.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 21:51:32 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: Robbie Subject: A straight answer to your questionable question Message:

Robbie: K didn't do anything of any real significance. It didn't do what was promised by its 'promoter,' that's for sure. As far as I can tell, it hasn't 'liberated' ANYONE else, either! If I just wanted to 'feel good,' a decent bottle of Calera Pinot Noir costs less than a video program and is GUARANTEED to make me feel good! A promise to 'just feel good' wouldn't have attracted the vast majority of ex's that express themselves on this particular forum. That IS a generalization, but I think it's accurate. Sure, I wanted to feel good all of the time, but that was an extremely small part of the package and nowhere near the importance of that which was actually promised. Now, as to the point of your question: I don't believe that you just think it's something that makes you feel good. If that was the attitude that you expressed to your initiator, I don't think you would have 'received' it. So there is some apparent dishonesty in the lead-in to your question. Care to comment on THAT? Additionally, do you think M is god?

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 22:19:10 (GMT) From: Robbie Email: None To: Mike Subject: Thanks for your answer Mike Message:

Because of your sincerety I will try to answer. I feel sorry that the Knowledge did not do anything for you. To me I experienced a lot when I received Knowlegde. The experiences I had were beyond my expectations. Honestly some descriptions I have read in books, are really understatements compared to what I experienced, However I almost understood nothing. To day I do not really have socalled 'cosmic' experiences. I am not a great meditator and dont think of Knowledge as meditation techniques. But most of the time I feel good. Sometimes I wake up with a smile. And many times during the day, I feel the contentment of being in touch with something beautiful inside me. So bottom line, for me, Knowlegde is about feeling good. If I think Maharjai is God? That is my personal business, but I dont think so, honestly I dont care, and I think if I have a good feeling, I am better off than most people. In my opinion you should ask, do I think Maharaji has the talent to bring a person closer to himself and the basics of his life, To such a question, allow me to say that in my experience I believe so.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 15:20:54 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: Robbie Subject: Moreover, it wasn't that.... Message:

Robbie: It wasn't the time I 'wasted' doing a type of meditation that seems to be relatively ineffective..... It was the time I wasted in the requisite state of 'devotion' that really pisses me off. Meditation is whatever it is..... Devotion is something else entirely. Devotion to one who claimed to be 'greater than god' and ends up being a fraud (in that regard, at the very least).... THAT pisses me off. Following the guy around the world and spending my meager assets to listen to this guy say NOTHING new..... THAT pisses me off. Devotion, or his definition of it, requires this type of activity by those who can little afford it. Advice, from this same guy, to NOT WASTE YOUR TIME getting an education (while sending his kids, at YOUR expense, to some of the best available schools)..... THAT pisses me off. His later recant and statement that 'we' should get good jobs so that we can follow him around (read that: fill his pockets)..... THAT pisses me off. I could go on and on and on.... The 'demands' of devotion were the REAL waste of time. A few unsuccessful hours spent under a blanket is chump-change, by comparison. I think you will find quite a large number of folks here that still meditate and they say it's just as effective as it ever was.... even more so. This is probably true do to the fact that they now have NO guilt over 'not meditating enough,' no guilt over 'not being grateful enough,' no guilt over 'not being good enough for god's attention' and no guilt over 'not devoting enough!' They are meditating with the 'original' promise of 'no strings attached!' They are meditating without the 'concepts' that M himself put on meditation and what it is supposed to mean and do. Those are concepts that HE planted! HE said it's 'knowledge of god' (see the quote above from JM). HE said 'liberation!' He said...he said...he said.... IF he hadn't said those things, he would NOT have been as successful as he is today. Why? Because I (and many others) would have just equated him with the Maharishi and his butt-jumping levitators. In other words, he wouldn't have gotten the time of day, much less money, from me! But no.... he lied, instead! THAT pisses me off! So, now you know a little bit about why I'm fairly ambivalent about the meditation and VEHEMENT about M! There's a difference between simple meditation (with no strings attached) and the entire enchilada of DEVOTION! A HUGE difference! You can't, even under the most laughable conditions, state that M promotes a simple and 'free' meditation! He promotes devotion (and ALWAYS HAS!)

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 05:04:33 (GMT) From: Hugh Email: None To: Robbie Subject: Wake Up With a Smile Message:

Dear Robbie, This is a serious question because I have had K for a very long time and I have never woken up with a smile. It always bugged me because I really want to do just that. The question is do you practice in the evening before you go to bed? I practice in the morning and as I say I don't wake up with a smile. I am hoping that if I practice at night I will wake up with a smile. Sincerely, Hugh

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:42:35 (GMT) From: Ax-Murderer Email: None To: Robbie Subject: Yes, Robbie, Yes! Message:

Ooooh, Robbie, you hit the nail on the head. Feeling good. Yes, yes, I love to feel goooood. And you know what makes me feel gooood? Mmmmmmm. I can't say. It's against the law. Let's just say they don't call me Ax-Murderer for nothing. Mmmmmmmm.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:33:13 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Robbie Subject: What are you ex-premies perspective of Knowledge? Message:

Robbie, Before I write a more detailed answer, please tell me if you understand english well. I get the impression that some premies who post here don't understand english well, so cannot properly debate. John.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:38:43 (GMT) From: Lord Gnome Email: None To: JHB Subject: Frontal lobes Message:

JCB, On the whole their English is good. It's the frontal lobes that are shot away. E.Strobes, pp Lord Gnome

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:37:16 (GMT) From: Robbie Email: None To: JHB Subject: John I am just curios, and I understand english Message:

I do not want to discuss.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:53:26 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Robbie Subject: John I am just curios, and I understand english Message:

Robbie, This is a forum where issues relating to Maharaji and knowledge are discussed. If you do not want to discuss, why are you here? John the very curious.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 21:04:24 (GMT) From: Robbie Email: None To: JHB Subject: John, the purpose of the Forum? Message:

John, I did read the motto of Forum: 'anything and everything about Maharaji and his followers.' I thought Knowledge was included in that.' . I thought this Forum is also to express ones opinions.I am still curious

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 21:12:48 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Robbie Subject: John, the purpose of the Forum? Message:

Robbie, I said:- This is a forum where issues relating to Maharaji and knowledge are discussed. If you do not want to discuss, why are you here? This is why I think you don't understand english. I clearly said that this forum was for discussing knowledge as well as Maharaji, and you give your stupid reply. Did you read what I said? Anyway, if I reply to you and you do not want to discuss does that mean you will simply read my reply out of curiosity, and then go silent? For what it's worth, knowledge is four meditation techniques adapted from an Indian tradition, that are still taught by many gurus in India. Meditation has been demonstrated to have positive effects on many people. Maharaji claims that the techniques are some ancient secret and that they won't work unless taught by him. This is clearly bollocks. Now I am curious. What do you think about my reply? John.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:19:51 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Robbie Subject: ... ex-premies perspective of Knowledge? Message:

Knowledge is the key to the Kingdom of Heaven ... (how it ever got into the hands of Mammon, I don't know.) PS Do you think St. Peter would hold you to a debt of gratitude?

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:34:46 (GMT) From: Robbie Email: None To: cq Subject: cq, I asked a sincere question Message:

What is your perspective of Knowledge?

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 22:25:15 (GMT) From: Dr. Kingsfield Email: None To: Robbie Subject: This is a tremendously important question... Message:

It is a question I have pondered my entire academic career. But in short, knowledge is power. It is the building block of the advancement of our civilization. All the great thinkers of history, from Socrates to Einstein and even really stupid and shallow people like Arianna Huffington, have extolled the need for knowledge. That's my perspective on knowledge as well. Without knowledge, a human being is, well, illiterate, among other things.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 22:01:26 (GMT) From: blood boils Email: None To: Robbie Subject: knowledge is fancy window dressing..... Message:

which leads one into a store that is empty.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:40:26 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Robbie Subject: and you got a sincer answer: K is the key to the: Message:

and you got a sincere answer: K is the key to the: Kingdom of Heaven! (and M could be telling the world - it's free and gratis) (unfortunately the 'Mammon' in him won't let go)

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 05:28:59 (GMT) From: Trixie Email: None To: Hey everybody Subject: Rob is just Curious! asking a sincere question??? Message:

Rob never imagines that we are not hear to satisfy his curiousity. He hopes that using a phrase like 'sincere question' will kindle a flame of honesty in some of us. Then he can take things further by giving his own honest feedback , and by doing so implant some example of satsangness - while gaining information about how we are with M. He does not deserve an sincere answer because he is not sincere. If he wanted his question answered he would find the answers in the archives. He is a blundering blunderbus who needs intelligent company and cant get it around the labotomized premies.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 19:25:32 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Seductive Poison Message:

I just saw an interview with Deborah Layton, a former high level member of The Peoples Temple who tells all in her book, Seductive Poison. How nice it would be if some former insider of our own cult, somebody like Michael Dettmers, perhaps, would do something similar. Unfortunately, I have to agree with JW, and don't think that Michael feels any such obligation or is even aware that he, also, was a former high level member of a cult. Our loss, and his, if such is the case.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:32:22 (GMT) From: blood boils Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Poison...thanx for comments & research (nt) Message:

aaa

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 16:41:48 (GMT) From: I Am Bill W. Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Divine Intervention Message:

Sometime in the mid-80s, several people around Maharaji who were concerned for him because of his behavior, initiated an alcoholic intervention. This intervention took place at the San Ysidro Ranch in Santa Barbara, and those attending were Maharaji, Marolyn, Mike Dettmers, Jean-Marie Bonthous, and two psychiatrists from Harvard University. The morning of the intervention was spent in 'confronting' Maharaji about his drinking. The persons there, who cared about him, including Marolyn, told M how his drinking affected them. M denied having any drinking problem. After lunch, everyone returned for the afternoon segment of the intervention, except that now Marolyn has done a reversal, retracting her earlier statements and concurring with M that he indeed does not have a drinking problem. Evidently, during the lunch break, M threatened Marolyn with never seeing the kids again if she persisted in participating in the intervention. Ergo, Marolyn's turnaround. The intervention is thwarted by this reversal and is terminated. The two psychiatrists remark that they've never seen anyone as well-defended as Maharaji, and they depart. Shortly after this episode, Mike Dettmers and Jean-Marie Bonthous are asked to leave their positions serving Maharaji.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 18:10:56 (GMT) From: EV-ex Email: None To: I Am Bill W. Subject: Divine Intervention Message:

FYI - Jean-Marie Bonthous is currently in charge of Elan Vital PR internationally (amoung other things), and lives in Malibu just down the hill from the lord of the universe. Jean-Marie seems to have been forgiven, if what Bill W. says is true.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 18:03:56 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: I Am Bill W. Subject: And here's what Dettmers says about THAT Message:

No, I'm not channelling. I'm just talking on the phone. But I did call Dettmers again as soon as I read this. Here's what he said: 1) Hi Jim 2) There was indeed a meeting at San Ysidro in the early to mid eighties. As Mike recalls, persons present included himself, Maharaji, Marolyn, Joan Apter, Jean Marie and a famous organizational 'guru', renowned author in the field, Bill Schutz. Schutz' assistant was also there. The meeting was all about how to best redirect or re-orient the premies' efforts in pursuing Maharaji's goals in the new post-ashram period. There was no alcoholic intervention. 3) Michael's still taking in all the feedback he's gotten here and, again, has promised me some further reply(ies), perhaps in a day or two, maybe a bit longer. He's still not sure if he'll simply post answers here himself or what but he'll do something. I told him that I'd post something to that effect. We had some further discussion on point but I think I'll hold off trying to paraphrase any of it and leave it for Michael to express his views on the subjects at hand when he's finally ready to do so. In terms of this intervention story, I told Mike that if it's not true then that only underscores how unfairly we've been deprived of any real information about the man who asked us to surrender the reins of our lives to him. We're either entitled to know about him or we're not. If we are, then, in my view, it's beholden on Mike and any other high-positioned former PAM to tell all. I also told Mike that, in my opinion, this Maharaji question is very blakc and white. He's either the Lord or he isn't. If he isn't, what flows from that is that he most certainly is a cult leader and we were his exploitees. If he is, then I need to know because I just have to kiss his feet again and now!

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 19:38:41 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Jim Subject: Will Michael Dettmers state the following Message:

Will Michael Dettmers state the following: 1) There was never a meeting during which an intervention was attempted to deal with Maharaji's alleged drinking problem. 2) He has never seen evidence that Maharaji has ever had a drinking problem.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 18:36:02 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Question Message:

As Mike recalls, persons present included himself, Maharaji, Marolyn, Joan Apter, Jean Marie and a famous organizational 'guru', renowned author in the field, Bill Schutz. Schutz' assistant was also there. The meeting was all about how to best redirect or re-orient the premies' efforts in pursuing Maharaji's goals in the new post-ashram period. Was there any discussion at this meeting about how ashram premies, who had spent their 20s in dedication to the lord, forgone careers, families and the rest to make what Maharaji had erroneously described as a life-long committment, were to 'redirect or re-orient' their lives in pursuing their OWN goals in the 'new post-ashram period?'

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 19:35:36 (GMT) From: x#%*! Email: None To: JW Subject: You wanted an out and out lie Joe? Message:

Here is one example. Ask yourself how much of your own belief system regarding Maharaji is tainted by such lies. Go ahead, let's get real!

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 17:33:18 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: x#%*! Subject: Touchy subject eh? Message:

So, my question is, 'How do you know it's a lie?' Or is that your heart tells you your master could never develop a drink problem? Anth the curious

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 21:02:02 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: AJW Subject: Hey Anth do you remember Message:

m's gardener called Frank. He used to tell us loads of stories about how m and samoranand used to get totally pissed at the reigate residence.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 21:10:35 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Hey Anth do you remember Message:

I remember Big Frank well. He organised a whole load of us to remove stones from this patch of ground at the Dormansland residence. Not very efficient but when you have slaves, removing stones by hand is as good a way as any. Of course I was blissed out doing service at the divine residence:-) I didn't hear this story but Frank was too simple, too sincere, to invent such stories. John.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:12:10 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: x#%*! Subject: Do you know how ridiculous you sound? Message:

There is a difference of opinion here and we shall see how it gets hashed out, but you don't know a goddammed thing about what is the correct version of the story, of if they are talking about two different things. Note also, that this could never happen on one of the cult sites where you can't discuss ANYTHING. If this is the best you can come up with as to why this site is based on 'lies' then let's say I'm not impressed.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 00:10:27 (GMT) From: x#%*! Email: None To: JW Subject: Ridiculous to you? I'm not worried. Message:

Your critical thinking capabilities are a complete joke Joe. Where was your similar questioning of the credibility of Mishler’s story? Where was your analysis of his potential reasons for him doing what he did? Instead you ate it up. Because Joe, Mishler definitely had a huge axe to grind with Maharaji. He had just been fired, and I’m sure felt publicly humiliated. Anyone with any objectivity would realise this and question his integrity. But then, none of you have any objectivity. You typically look for information to support your beliefs and reject information that is to the contrary.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 18:32:40 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: x#%*! Subject: I Guess you have no clue how ridiculous you sound. Message:

Why you stay around here and are the laughing stock of this forum is beyond me, you dishonest dumbo. What is your name NOW, Nil, URL and X#%*!? Are you pretending to be somebody different now? And when did I question Dettmer's 'credibility?' So, I say again, put up or shut up. If there are any 'lies' here, let's hear what they are. I'm waiting.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 18:44:53 (GMT) From: x#%*! Email: None To: JW Subject: You don't get it do you? Message:

I really don't give a flying fuck about your opinion Joe. I look just fine to rational people. You have zero objectivity, and you are a raw nerve laying bare inflicting your anxiety on any unsuspecting like minded individual who's looking to resonate with your kind of nervous energy. Get it? As far as I'm concerned you don't count.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 22:37:39 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: x#%*! Subject: I'm hurt Message:

I'm so hurt that you don't care about my opinion, flying or otherwise. I will see if I can get some medication for my anxiety. I had no idea it was that bad. Thank you for your concern. Joe one of the uncounted masses -- Do you think I should just ignore my census form? I mean then I would count, right? It's just so confusing I don't know what to do.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 22:20:33 (GMT) From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: x#%*! Subject: Show THAT love, oh my brother! Message:

It's just so beautiful to see that love stream from you. It's so obvious that Maharaji has graced you with that gift. And I agree. These ex-premies are all nervous wrecks. Just look at how nervous they look in those pictures JM posted. Nervous and raw nerves, every one of them, just waiting to electrocute unsuspecting, sincere people like yourself. And neither JW nor any of them count that's true. It is truly a wonder why you and I spend so much time conversing with these people who mean absolutely nothing to us and who don't count anyway. It must be because we are overflowing with Maharaji's grace and that love, which is that gift, which is so beatiful.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 20:13:06 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: x#%*! Subject: Do I count? Message:

x#%*!, You don't look fine to me. I think you're irrational as far as Maharaji is concerned. I am a rational person, although I was selective in my use of reason while I followed Maharaji. So do I count? John.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 23:31:46 (GMT) From: x#%*! Email: None To: JHB Subject: Do I count? Message:

Yeah, and you don’t look all that good to me……especially in that beard. So we all think we’re rational and we all admit to having been irrational. Chances are we’re not as rational as we think we are and will admit to being irrational again. The wheel keeps turning and this discussion keeps going nowhere. I want to believe what I want to believe and you do the same because what we believe is what really makes sense to us.....not what is necessarily rational. And life becomes a test of will to try and make our beliefs come true. So will your will be stronger than my will? Keep one eye on the road and one in the mirror and let’s see where the road takes us. Do have a good life John the Latvian. In answer to your question: No, JW’s the only one whose opinion doesn’t count.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 23:51:32 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: x#%*! Subject: Do I count? Message:

Yeah, and you don’t look all that good to me……especially in that beard. At least you know my name and my face, and my email address. If you look up my name in the London telephone directory you can have my phone number and address as well. If you have access to DLM archives you can read my ashram premie journey as well. I think this shows I have some integrity in expressing my views here. You hide behind anonymity which suggests to me that you have no integrity at all. John Brauns

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 23:56:42 (GMT) From: x#%*! Email: None To: JHB Subject: Do I count? Message:

You hide behind anonymity which suggests to me that you have no integrity at all. Or that I have reasons for maintaining anonimity that you are not aware of. Got to sign off!

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 20:07:10 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: x#%*! Subject: You don't get it do you? Message:

x#%*!, you say: 'I look just fine to rational people.' As far as I'm concerned you don't count. ' Think again. (Rational people ARE looking at your posts ... and...) 'Don't count'????

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 19:36:32 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: x#%*! Subject: I'm incredulous Message:

I look just fine to rational people. #$%&, Is there a single person you know who knows you're a premie, knows that Maharaji used to claim he was the Lord of the Universe and thinks that your following him is rational? Who (beside other premies, of course)? I say that's a non-starter. But maybe i'm wrong. Tell me, @#$, who?

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 17:41:32 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: x#%*! Subject: Objectivity? Message:

Hey, You beleive your master is a Jesus type Perfect Master figure, the purpose of your life is to love and serve him, he can do no wrong, (correct me if I'm wrong here), and you come here spouting about objectivity. Trying to get a straight answer out of a heavily conditioned premie like yourself is like trying to get your money back out of the phone box using only witty conversation. There's nobody home is there? Is there anything you would refuse to do for your master x#%*!? I've a strong suspicion you've got your head in such a dark place you can't tell God from snot. Anth the Objectionable

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 18:35:48 (GMT) From: x#%*! Email: None To: AJW Subject: Objectivity? Message:

Sure, sure , sure Anth. What else can we expect from you but dumb pre-recorded responses like this. I think you figure you’ve got this guru thing all sussed out now, and have therefore shut off your capability to think past the snot in your nasal cavities. Contrary to your idiotic quips, my mind is not in a dark place, I do evaluate on a very deep level my experiences of life, and I am not the cardboard premie stereotype you so dearly hope I am. So do us a favour. Why don’t you go back to your bottle of French syrah to try and get in touch with yourself so you have something more intelligent to say than your usual run-of-the-mill bullshit……...‘kay?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 09:52:40 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: x#%*! Subject: Why don't you answer my questions? Message:

...scared to get into a conversation with one of the fallen ones? Anth the Chatty

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 11:43:40 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: AJW Subject: Why don't you answer my questions? Message:

Dear Anth, Yesterday I read a post where you signed off, Anth the chatty and I busted out laughing. That lead me to open every post of yours just to see how you signed them. :) Now I see you do repeat. I guess I can understand that, so many posts over such a long time. :) Love, Robyn the amused

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 19:45:49 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: x#%*! Subject: You're NOT a 'cardboard premie stereotype'? Message:

I am not the cardboard premie stereotype you so dearly hope I am. God! One big surprise after another! Tell me, @##$%, are any premies 'cardboard premie stereotypes'? Take a look at ELK, for example. I haven't been there today but let's go take a look, shall we? (I feel like I'm the nursery school teacher on Romper Room, right now.). Okay, what do we find? Well, Ms. Mattos has a: Magic heart Love and affection Happiness and satisfaction Since Knowledge started in my life, Water was music And light was the stars. Magic happiness and freedom, With a fulfillment of my heart. I share this feelings with others With an endless smile, I transmit all my happiness and peace. My secret passion inside I convey. What a surprise! So simple! So nice! Ivete Belfort Mattos Sao Paolo, Brazil and Ms. Wilson is: Rejoicing with understanding Thank you Maharaji for teaching me how to fly inside It seems like I am learning to walk on water trusting in my heart and this feeling each day Learning to dive into the depths of my heart and climb into the summit of my soul :) Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy Oh joy ! It is so much fun It is true, you can never be too happy! I am extremely grateful to be learning and growing acquiring the understanding that sets me free Free to live, free to soar Free to live in the world of my heart a world full of love, joy, bliss What an amazing Knowledge this is! What an auspicious, encouraging teacher :) Janice Wilson Baldwinsville, NY, USA and Ms. Kalpana also had something very special to say: True self Stay in touch with your true self, your real nature Kalpana Ellan Penang, Malaysia Would you say these premies break the mold like you do? What?

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 19:37:29 (GMT) From: Modest Mouse Email: None To: x#%*! Subject: Such a powerful incarnation is x#%*! Message:

x#%*! is the latest and greatest incarnation of our favorite guest here at the forum. I wonder, though, what effect monitoring the forum might be having on the life of x#%*!. It seems that to hang around here and give and take so much abuse must start cutting into one's sense of bliss. Hey, not to mention the fact that x#%*! is forgoing so much 'under the sheet' time. Care to comment, Mr. x#%*!?

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 00:30:53 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: x#%*! Subject: Ridiculous to you? I'm not worried. Message:

x#%! said:- You typically look for information to support your beliefs and reject information that is to the contrary. This is exactly what I did as a premie and what I believe you are doing now. Now I find I'm a little more critical. That's why I asked Dettmers about the alcohol story. His answer was a little evasive, in that he denied the meeting as described took place, but said nothing about Maharaji drinking alcohol. If Maharaji didn't drink alcohol, surely he would say that out front. Mischler's testimony may or may not be true, but apart from your idea that he was bitter, I see no reason not to believe it. Do you have the critical powers to examine these allegations rationally? John.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 15:31:08 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: JHB Subject: A good question, JHB Message:

JHB: One of the key questions concerning Mischler's story would have to be, 'what would he have to gain from airing it?' What would be his motive? Simple retaliation? I think not! Why? Because he would have to totally embarass HIMSELF to reveal M's nasty little secrets AND he would have to accept some measure of responsibility for 'marketing' the fraud in the first place! I tend to believe a story when the story is a double-edged sword for the story-teller! What did he have to gain? Maybe a clear conscience..... I don't see any other perk coming his way for telling his story.... other than telling the truth, for a change! What mischler did took guts..... albeit late, I think he said it straight!

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 16:30:55 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Mike Subject: It's 'Mishler' (there's no 'c') (nt) Message:

vv

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 21:24:19 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: Jim Subject: Sorry, thanks Jim! Message:

I have no idea why I continuously want to put that 'c' in there. Thanks for correcting it..... :-)

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 19:54:47 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: x#%*! Subject: Shut up, stupid! Message:

You don't know a damned thing! But keep your ears open. Somebody who does, if he's got the courage to speak, just might fill you in.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 23:23:40 (GMT) From: x#%*! Email: None To: Jerry Subject: I'm waiting Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 17:43:12 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: x#%*! Subject: waiting for the lion to shag the lamb? (nt) Message:

or was it a thousand years of peace?

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 01:02:14 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: x#%*! Subject: I'm waiting Message:

Me too.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:36:34 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: x#%*! Subject: Shut up, stupid! Message:

x#%*! One of your recent posts went like this: 'Look I’m not avoiding anything, especially any issues in your oh-so-intriguing post.' So. Are you eventually going to come up with a response to my question about the Maha (I nearly mistyped Hama ... so is that how the Hamster got his nickname?) - - about the Maha and his 'doubt is the ulitimate sin' quote? Answer that one before you go diverting the current thread any further.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 00:22:46 (GMT) From: referee Email: None To: cq Subject: better take it outside boys, don't want any inocen Message:

inocent bystanders to get hurt

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 18:38:00 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: Good question -- but we didn't talk about that Message:

Joe, Just another good question of yours that I hope Michael will answer before too long.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 17:24:42 (GMT) From: JHB Email: brauns@dircon.co.uk To: Mike Dettmers Subject: To Mike Dettmers - Can you confirm Message:

Mr. Dettmers, This is the sort of story which appears here that those of us who were simple premies can neither confirm nor deny. You have taken the step in responding to other posts here and on other exes sites. Here is an opportunity for you to add valuable information. The story above is either:- 1. 100% true as told. 2. Largely true as told with no significant errors. 3. A distortion of what really happened, in which case I am sure you will correct the errors. 4. Completely untrue. Confirmation of this story will of course have a significant effect on how current premies view Maharaji, and how exes who are struggling to come to terms with their past involvement can put this episode behind them. I look forward to your response, in whatever way you wish to make it. John Brauns.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 04:34:11 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: JHB Subject: thanks JHB Message:

I was starting to wonder if everyone had gone mad.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 17:13:54 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: I Am Bill W. Subject: Michael????? Message:

Can you confirm or deny this above scenario? Is this the disagreement you had with Maharaji that led to your leaving the 'Swiss Foundation?' Actually, Michael, if you really did try to help Maharaji with his drinking problem, you did a good thing. It's something a real friend would do.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 17:31:57 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: JW Subject: To Bill W. Message:

Bill W: This post may provide the kind of inspiration premies need to get out of the cult -- a kind of intervention in itself. Many thanks for stepping up to the challenge and giving us this information. Love, Marianne

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 19:43:03 (GMT) From: x#%*! Email: None To: Marianne Subject: To Marianne Message:

You don't get it do you Marianne! Bill W wasn't there but Michael Dettmers was there. That's pretty straight forward isn't it? Are you so deperate to believe M is a fraud that it overrides even your professional common sense?

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 17:49:07 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: x#%*! Subject: drinking problem Message:

Hypothetically of course, would your faith in your master be diminished if you discovered he did indeed have a drinking problem? Anth the chatty

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 02:14:20 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: x#%*! Subject: x#%*!: Questions. Message:

Hi! I would like please to hear your opinion. 1-Is Maharaji the Lord of the Universe or not? 2-What do you get from being involved with him? 3-Why do you think Maharaji changed his story for us to forget about the past when he proclaimed to be God incarnated? Thanks.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 19:53:22 (GMT) From: EV-ex Email: None To: x#%*! Subject: Two questions for YOU Message:

x#%*!, do you have the stones to answer two simple questions yourself? 1. When did you become a premie? 2. Did you ever live in the ashram?

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 18:45:06 (GMT) From: trixie Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Either Bill W. or Michael D have it wrong. Or else Message:

they are talking about two different meetings. Question for Bill W. ' At the meeting you speak of , was Michael present during the intervention? He says there was none. But two Harvard professors are hard to miss. Is it possible that some other aspect of this summit meeting was taking place in a different part of the house/ranch?? Or for those of you that know about these things, would Michael Dettmers have been sworn to secrecy for some reason relating to the alchohol?

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 02:13:30 (GMT) From: Bill W. Email: None To: trixie Subject: Either Bill W. or Michael D have it wrong. Or else Message:

I told the alcoholic intervention story as it was told to me with no spin or interpretation on my part. So I doubt that there was another meeting at San Ysidro taking place simultaneously. Perhaps there was an entirely different meeting at an entirely different time which dealt with the intervention. But that is conjecture on my part, but I do know that the meeting I was told about was not a management consultation.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 18:47:28 (GMT) From: x#%*! Email: None To: Bill W. Subject: So it was second or third hand information Message:

Caution: Rumour alert!!! That's how they get started.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 19:01:19 (GMT) From: Bill W. Email: None To: x#%*! Subject: So it was second or third hand information Message:

This is most certainly no rumor, but feel free to twist in the wind if you so choose. Or, I suppose burying your head in the sand is the appropriate state. I don't promulgate rumors.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 21:27:40 (GMT) From: x#%*! Email: None To: Bill W. Subject: So it was second or third hand information Message:

You say that with such conviction. Are you vouching for the second or third party you got the story from? Are you accusing Dettmers of lying? Or are you buying into the rationalisation that “there must have been two meetings”? Until there is a credible first party to tag to the story it is hearsay. And given that Michael who was ostensibly there refutes it, there’s not a hell of a lot of life left in the story. Sorry.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 01:24:15 (GMT) From: Bill W. Email: None To: x#%*! Subject: So it was second or third hand information Message:

Let me assure you that this story is not third hand information as you state in another post. I will not state who told me about the intervention, but if you ascertained an air of conviction from my previous post to you, then you're correct in your observation. I am not accusing Dettmers of anything, and I would appreciate it if you would not ascribe such accusations or motives to me. That is something you constructed, not me. I think it is admirable that Dettmers has conversed with an ex from the forum, and I harbor no ill will toward him, nor am I accusing him of anything.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 23:19:47 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: x#%*! Subject: So it was second or third hand information Message:

x#%*!, Look, you should ask yourself why you are so eager to believe no such meeting as described by Bill W. took place. As I said before, if Mike believed Maharaji had no alcohol problem he would have said it in his reply. I certainly would. Instead, he deflects the debate to a meeting about management consultancy. I don't know about you, but if I had heard of even this meeting as a premie, my view of Maharaji would have been shattered. Why would the Perfect Master need to consult someone else about spreading knowledge? John.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 23:44:56 (GMT) From: x#%*! Email: None To: JHB Subject: So it was second or third hand information Message:

Look, my concern is the pattern expressed by this issue. That is, someone claims something based on third hand knowledge. All you guys jump on it. And low and behold it becomes a 'fact' that get incorporated into the ex-premie myth. It is dishonest and slanderous. And why is it you guys always assume if it's a premie they must be lying? In this case it's an ex-premie who doesn't concur with your points of view. Granted they don't belong to your cult........ Besides, it's damned hard to believe someone who spends so much time at the helm of a 20 million dollars jet with a payload of passengers would be able to hide such a problem.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 00:03:16 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: x#%*! Subject: So it was second or third hand information Message:

Firstly, I know of many confirmed stories of alcoholic pilots so that argument has no credence. Secondly you didn't respond to any of the other points in my post. I understand where you're coming from on this, and maybe in this respect false information about Maharaji is being spread. But so much good information is told here that you premies don't even try to respond to. This leads me to believe that you're trapped in a belief system and cannot escape until you see that Maharaji is a fraud. John.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 00:03:03 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: x#%*! Subject: So it was second or third hand information Message:

I didn't read anyone saying that it a fact. It is something to consider, given that this is not the only account of him drinking. The funny thing is, if he hadn't claimed to be God, greater than God, infallible, totally enlightened, or the way to enlightenment, this wouldn't be such a big deal. After all, people make mistakes and have problems. There are plenty of pilots who have drinking problems. Also, no one claimed that he is drunk while on the plane.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 18:38:26 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Bill W. Subject: Thanks, Bill Message:

Given that Maharaji, when it comes to his own comfort, not the premies' comfort, does everything FIRST CLASS, I'm wouldn't be surprised that San Ysidro and it's luxurious accommodations, were utilized more than once for get-togethers of the hierarchy of EV when Maharaji also attended. Also, if an intervention was intended, it would make sense to have it at a place Maharaji had been before for business meetings so he wouldn't suspect. On the other hand, we sang in Arti that Maharaji was 'all knowing.' So, how would they have expected that to work? I also have to say, that stories about Maharaji's drinking problems were quite widespread among premies in the 80s. Mishler talked about it in is radio interview in 1979 as well.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 09:20:37 (GMT) From: trixie Email: None To: Bill W. Subject: Either Bill W. or Michael D have it wrong. Or else Message:

Dear Bill W. Thank you for the reply. It seems that both your accounts ring true. I tend to think there was two different meetings. Trixie

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 17:36:06 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Bill Subject: To Bill W. Message:

Yes thank you Bill. Talk about seeing the man behind the curtain. I sure would love to see the notes of those Havard psychiatrists!

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 18:29:56 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: all Subject: For those who want to envision this better Message:

a link to the San Ysidro Ranch Where the Kennedy's honeymooned.

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 19:33:50 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Susan Subject: San Ysidro-or dis ynas?(or dis winos? whiners?)nt Message:

San Ysidro-or dis ynas?(or dis winos? whiners?)nt

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:33:25 (GMT) From: Lord Gnome Email: None To: cq Subject: Vot??(nt) Message:

Que??

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Date: Tues, Apr 04, 2000 at 20:43:41 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Lord Gnome Subject: Backwards, milud(nt)...should be on the next stage Message:

Backwards, milud(nt)...should be on the next stage

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 03:15:20 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: cq Subject: non-seq. - pls ck 'blow in my ear' - inactive (st) Message:

I try to clear up misunderstandings when possible.

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Date: Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 17:58:06 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Stonor Subject: non-seq. - pls ck 'blow in my ear' - inactive (st) Message:

Ref: 'pls ck 'blow in my ear' - inactive (st)' Zen and the art of diplomacy: 'If you find yourself caught up in a misunderstanding that could be cleared up quickly with a simple explanation, for goodness sake, keep your mouth shut.' Q: And how many Zen masters does it take to change a lightbulb? A: All of them. (One to change the lightbulb - and the rest not to). Levity? Believe me, Stonor, I'm not the only one. BTW (seriously) what does '(st)' mean?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 03:38:50 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: stonor770@netscape.net To: cq Subject: non-seq. - pls ck 'blow in my ear' - inactive (st) Message:

No you're not the only one who provides levity here (I'm sending the headless chicken story to a friend tomorrow), and I'm sure plenty of people get laughs, but not of the kind I prefer. And if you really are serious, (st) means short thread- a short note. What do I know? This is the first and only forum I've ever posted at and I've got no connection to m except a brief e-mail friend and two premies that are part of a much longer story from 1983. I really don't enjoy talking here. That thread about what bothers Hal is a good example of why I don't. I used to have a reserved respect for some of those types for some of their posts - but as I say, inconsistencies wear thin. I don't see how this kind of 'discussion' provides support for ex-premies who have reclaimed their lives, or those who are considering trying to do so. I call it verbal and psychological abuse, and it might well run the risk of turning more sensitive premies back to 'the fold.' And as for the general public being able to post here making this a 'far more powerful (=free) stage,' haven't you noticed how many times I've been slammed for knowing nothing because I don't have 'Knowledge?' How many people from the general public would even find this site, and what for? Topics that interest me, such as some of the ones you look into, are not in the general public sphere. I've made choices in my life that have not come out roses, but I've accepted the results, tried to gain from my experience of them, and moved on. This site too often reminds me of the way Bruce Springsteen was once described: a firecracker that never goes off (or blows a few fingers off someone's hand). While there are people here who are not part of that particular atmosphere, they tend to get lost in the overall negative vibe. When I began posting here, at times I really thought that you were all crazy, so I decided to ask a few questions and see. At times it has been very interesting, but it has still been very stressful for me to post. As a woman, I have had my fair share of intimidation+; as an adult-ed public school teacher for about twenty years, recovering from 5 years of threatening (non-sexual) harassment for doing my job by quietly asking a student to see the director before coming into the classroom, I have little interest left in the kind of 'freedom' I have to post here and be freely attacked or sarcastically put down for saying, or trying to discuss what I think, feel, have read or experienced. Taking the time to share information, when asked, about a non-drug alternative that I have personally experienced to be of benefit for emotional and psychological abuse (homeopathy), was met with over-the-top virulent nastiness and general disinterest, apart from hamzen's sole effort to provide a bit of balance. And I do realize that that particularly abusive person has far greater personal problems to deal with than being an ex-premie - he reminds me of some of my old students. I don't need this in my 'free' time. I have found a few people here that I think it would be interesting to continue talking with, which is why I have posted for so long (5 weeks now?), but that remains to be seen in most cases. It's sort like the 'read me' feeling I get from some books. Seriously, I hope you e-mail me some time, and I do apologize for my lack of levity at the moment.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 17:54:00 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Stonor Subject: 'Firecracker that never goes off...' Message:

'Firecracker that never goes off...' Funny you should say that, Stonor. Perhaps part of the problem is that tapping at a qwerty keyboard is no substitute for a real-life face-to-face encounter. Then again, some of the more seasoned posters evidently find it easier to vent their spleen via this medium, and have no qualms about shooting from the hip. Whether fairly or unfairly doesn't seem to come into it. No doubt we all, from time to time, reveal more about ourselves here than we'd like. But it takes all sorts, and, at the end of the day, I doubt if any forum exists where opinions are challenged only in a cultured manner. This particular forum seems to be more of a 'pen-pal-cum-encounter group' hybrid, and the mix doesn't suit everybody. Personally, I don't get time to read through every thread, but I was surprised to hear you'd been 'slammed for knowing nothing because (you) don't have 'Knowledge'' 'though I did read the one where your stance on homeopathy was taken as being a symptom of New-Age type gullibility. I didn't get involved 'cos I don't know much about the subject, though I've been given one or two Bach flower remedies over the years. Yeah, scientifically there's no reason for homeopathy to work, but who's to doubt the power of the human mind/spirit to heal itself with a little encouragement (and placebos only work if you don't know they're placebos). You speak of being 'freely attacked or sarcastically put down for saying, or trying to discuss what I think, feel, have read or experienced' Don't let that stop you! It happens, and discovering how to deal with it can only make us stronger. Give as good as you get, - in fact - better!. Don't be intimidated any more. (and IMO there's no such thing as a 'fair share' of intimidation. Any kind of intimidation is UNfair from start to finish.) Must go now, but I will email you - especially re. those eclectic iconoclasts we both seem to enjoy reading. Bye for now. Chris. PS andthanks for explaining the 'st'

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 01:32:39 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: cq Subject: I'm developing a craving for fireworks! ( not) Message:

Hi Chris, I wasn't thinking of 'cultured manners' here, or even 'bad language,' but more everyday respect and consideration for others. I find that these qualities can be found in certain individuals regardless of their background or upbringing. No doubt it takes all sorts, but my point was that 'all sorts' probably won't spend much time here, only those into the general atmosphere at this site. I haven't heard about Bach remedies. Maybe you could tell me more sometime if you found them useful. Homeopathy is hardly 'new age.' It was developed about 250 years ago by a German named Hahneman. I had no particular belief in it when I tried it - but it worked. Over time it has never ceased to amaze me - I continue to be surprised by its beneficial results. As to questions of 'placebo effect,' I prefer to base my opinions on my own experience, and I certainly could never have anticipated the effects. My sister has given these remedies to her children, pets, and even her highly sceptical husband, with great success. Even our science-oriented younger sister, who has scoffed at us for years, recently asked Karen for help and (also surprisingly) admitted that the results were concrete. And I doubt the Royal Family is into placebos after all these years. Again I mention, as I did before, you do need to work with a reputable homeopath for many reasons, paticularly if you're new to it, although there are some everyday remedies that can be self-administered. IMO there's no such thing as a 'fair share' of intimidation. Any kind of intimidation is UNfair from start to finish.) Well said Chris! And thank you, I agree - too bad more proponents of free speech here didn't see the contradiction in applying it to all 'speech.' Nonetheless, after the experiences I have had standing up to intimidation in various forms, I have little appetite for it, and prefer to avoid it. I like to save my energy and patience for contexts more important to me, and I have better things to do than expose myself to more unneccessarily. I'm looking forward to discussing some of those texts we've referred to, especially with a fellow iconoclast! Until then, Still Stonor at this forum at least.

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