Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 11:05:00 (GMT)
From: Mar 29, 2000 To: Apr 07, 2000 Page: 5 Of: 5


Jim -:- My interview with Joan Apter -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 21:17:40 (GMT)
__ Mr A Hitler -:- My interview with Joan Apter -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 10:47:15 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Gotta love ya, Jimmy boy! -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 18:37:30 (GMT)
__ __ Louis cipher -:- Jimmy's my favourite too !!!! (nt) -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 14:38:33 (GMT)
__ __ Ian Dury -:- Speaking of Bill Patterson -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 19:20:02 (GMT)
__ dv -:- The premies that basked in the devotional lime- -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 03:03:49 (GMT)
__ JW -:- The Infuriating Smugness of New Age Responsbility -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 02:16:06 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Joan 'Cleopatra' Apter - in denial? (nt) -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 16:43:41 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- A premie's perspective -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 02:14:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- A premie's perspective -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 04:41:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Daneane -:- A premie's perspective -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 03:57:41 (GMT)
__ __ Deputy Dog -:- The Workingness of Taking Responsbility -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 16:38:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- blame the victim -:- Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 01:55:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Premie opinions on -:- what this site should be about??!! -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 11:58:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Hal -:- The Workingness of Taking Responsbility -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 19:58:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Thanks Hal -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 22:36:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- And that's EXACTLY why you can't think well -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 22:49:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Are you serious, Hal? -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 20:16:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Are you serious, Hal? -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 20:44:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Hugh -:- Being at cause over life -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 05:22:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Being at cause over life -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 21:56:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Careful, Hal -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 22:10:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Careful, Hal -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 00:23:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Careful, Hal -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 00:54:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Definitions of reality -:- Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 15:39:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Just tried all for 'hodological' - 0 -:- Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 18:41:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Hey Jim -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 08:42:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Dog, if you really think about it, that's nonsense -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 17:34:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Most people think that's nonsense -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 21:13:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're discussing this VERY sloppily -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 22:35:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- You're discussing this VERY angrily -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 23:11:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yeah, I'm angry. So what? I'm 'owning' it -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 23:32:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- If you truly owned your anger it would be gone (nt -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 03:36:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I'm owning the fact that I'm thinking of outing u -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 03:45:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- You promised not to (nt) -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 04:16:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, BUT .......... -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 07:40:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- promises -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 04:29:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- promises -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 09:08:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- Dog, if you really think about it, that's nonsense -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 18:29:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- What I would have said had I been as articulate as -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 17:40:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- The problem is people use this way of thinking -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 17:07:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Dog -:- The problem is people use this way of thinking -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 22:07:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- A little hypocritical, Dogg? -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 22:54:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- You poor helpless victim (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 23:14:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- glad you won't be my nurse Dog -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 22:43:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- glad you won't be my nurse Dog -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 23:20:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- yes. -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 02:06:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Admit it, you have some effect on how you react to -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 01:19:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Admit it, you have some effect on how you react to -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 04:53:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- 'accept and relax' this! -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 22:07:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- You've just done it again dog, CONTEXT -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 09:33:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- The problem is people use this way of thinking -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 18:47:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- thanks Helen -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 02:14:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- 'creating one's own reality' -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 04:07:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- The problem is people use this way of thinking -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 22:23:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- The problem is people use this way of thinking -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 03:17:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- The problem is people use this way of thinking -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 04:14:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, Dogg, you HAVE been called 'cold-hearted' -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 18:30:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- The problem is people use this way of thinking -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 13:56:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Thanks Jerry (nt) -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 22:10:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- The problem is people use this way of thinking -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 04:24:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- The problem is people use this way of thinking -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 05:12:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Fuck you, Dogg -- either you believe something or -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 22:40:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Poor Jimmy -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 23:17:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Time to get lost again, Dog -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 01:36:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- You can't handle the truth!!!!! -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 03:30:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh, I see ....... can't handle the truth, eh? -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 03:40:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Oh, I see ....... can't handle the truth, eh? -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 04:25:02 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- Succintly put JW, this stuff infuriates me -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 06:34:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ JW -:- Yeah, Me Too -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 18:15:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Yeah, Me Too -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 18:58:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Yeah, Me Too -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 23:22:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- The problem's all in the language -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 23:42:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- OK, I shouldn't have used that phrase -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 01:00:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- OK, then let's change the terminology sometime -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 05:10:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- OK, then let's change the terminology sometime -:- Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 19:19:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- OK, then let's change the terminology sometime -:- Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 20:56:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie/Ms. K. -:- Oops, I am not that Katie! -:- Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 23:29:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Oops, I am not that Katie! -:- Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 00:42:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- OK, I shouldn't have used that phrase -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 04:42:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Why go Buddhist,when you have gm and knowledge? nt -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 09:45:47 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- The Infuriating Smugness of New Age Responsbility -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 02:25:56 (GMT)
__ dv -:- The 'distancing' of the premies. -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 23:21:49 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- They distance themselves from life's shit. -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 04:53:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ JW -:- Thanks, Helen -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 18:31:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Remy -:- Waves of suckitude -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 08:01:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- If you believe in 'Knowledge' you've got a problem -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 23:03:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- And Remy....... -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 09:19:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- And Hal ...... -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 18:45:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- And Hal ...... -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 22:52:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- And Hal ...... -:- Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 04:48:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Remy/Daneane -:- Okay Hal... -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 14:42:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- bye Remy. -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 16:00:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Hal, looks like you answered yourself -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 23:18:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Yeah, Nice post Ham (nt) -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 23:28:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Remy -:- If you must go... -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 17:31:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Hal -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 22:27:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Helen -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 23:07:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- thanks Hal -:- Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 04:47:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Hal, I too had similar experiences on acid you did -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 23:43:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Hal, I too had similar experiences on acid you did -:- Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 01:05:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Nice one Hal, I definitely find the odd break does -:- Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 03:15:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Hal -:- Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 04:51:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Helen -:- Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 08:22:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- hammie -:- Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 16:57:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ VSOP -:- Waves of suckitude -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 22:46:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Waves of suckitude -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 15:58:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Concepts about feelings -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 17:28:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Concepts about feelings/speculation about Joan -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 18:27:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Concepts about feelings/speculation about Joan -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 01:44:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Joan Apter pissed-off at Prem Rawat (aka Maharaji) -:- Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 17:30:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Joan Apter pissed-off at Prem Rawat (aka Maharaji) -:- Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 17:38:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Joan Apter pissed-off at Prem Rawat (aka Maharaji) -:- Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 19:22:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Remy/Daneane -:- Blowing -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 18:51:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Blowing -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 19:16:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- well said G! (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 17:34:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Also, the avoidance of unpleasantness and get you -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 18:56:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- ex-premie assertiveness training -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 19:25:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Remy -:- Old wall-eyed -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 20:42:09 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- What are her thoughts when Mr. Young flies? -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 22:29:32 (GMT)
__ bloodboils -:- My interview with Joan Apter....Thanks -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 21:27:19 (GMT)

cq -:- Hey, Stonor: -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 18:56:10 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- Hey, Stonor: -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 19:41:13 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- This page is on a Sai Baba web site (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 00:05:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- I'm vaguely curious . . . -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 02:22:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- I'm vaguely curious . . . -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 03:39:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Who's talking about Sai Baba?!!! (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 04:59:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- I see what you're talking about -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 05:57:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- G: this might interest you: -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 06:11:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- interesting -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 12:57:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- interesting -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 15:05:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- philosophy, about myself -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 16:29:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- philosophy, about myself -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 20:41:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Stoner, I tried your email address, it didn't work -:- Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 20:24:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ stonor -:- StonOr works! -:- Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 21:01:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- my mistake, I didn't read it correctly -:- Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 21:58:11 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- No probs, til later? (like, give us a day or 2?)nt -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 20:18:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ bloodboils -:- cookie cutter christs -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 20:52:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- cookie cutter christs -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 14:31:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bloodboils -:- very nice work cq -:- Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 00:24:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Great research cq - Thanks! (nt) -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 15:00:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Love your metaphor, can't stand your name! -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 16:01:30 (GMT)

Jim -:- Well she did it: The Perfect Premie Poem (2000) -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 18:55:44 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- Her name Ivete U. Thinkimjim (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 19:02:53 (GMT)
__ cq -:- The Perfect Premie Poem (2000) Gamma rays on ... -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 19:00:43 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- Okay Jim... -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 18:59:11 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- No way, Jose -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 19:08:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- I really thought it was you! -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 19:10:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Try sending in something dark and suicidal -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 19:25:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- send it in Jim..... -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 02:09:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Remy -:- RE:Try sending in something dark and suicidal -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 01:22:44 (GMT)

Jim -:- Remy, this could have been you -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 18:36:22 (GMT)
__ Remy -:- Contact -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 01:07:52 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Re:Remy, this could have been you -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 19:07:15 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Re:Remy, this could have been you -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 19:27:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Wt -:- one of yours -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 17:33:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- Re:Remy, this could have been you -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 21:00:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ bloodboils -:- she is too far gone....life will teach her -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 20:58:49 (GMT)

cq -:- Response to Hal re. Osho (thread now inactive) -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 17:54:11 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Response to Hal re. Osho (thread now inactive) -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 20:16:02 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Just how I felt before meeting ... (imagine) nt -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 20:20:47 (GMT)
__ cq -:- oops, not so inactive. (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 18:04:42 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- Re:Osho -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 18:24:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Re: ex-sannyasins -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 19:37:45 (GMT)

Susan -:- Ebay Alert Blue Aquarius!!!!! -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 16:41:36 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Ebay Alert Blue Aquarius!!!!! -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 17:30:21 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- One of his paintings? -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 18:03:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- One of his paintings? -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 15:46:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- One of his paintings? Picture? -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 16:46:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- One of his paintings? -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 16:50:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Negatives -:- Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 12:13:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Warning! -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 05:06:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Warning! -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 16:05:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Roger, can you call me right now? (Important) -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 05:10:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Email me! -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 19:21:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Done! -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 19:33:19 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Satsang, Lies and Videos -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 15:14:02 (GMT)

card man -:- april programs -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 13:56:30 (GMT)
__ A.P. -:- april programs -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 17:33:45 (GMT)
__ web surfer -:- Satellite Broadcast - North America - April 9th -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 02:35:53 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- $25.00 = free (yes, and 2 + 2 = 5) -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 03:22:07 (GMT)
__ __ bloodboils -:- Without advertising or charging fees to attend -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 02:56:55 (GMT)
__ dv -:- april programs -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 23:47:31 (GMT)
__ JW -:- Do you have the dates for Chicago and LA? -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 18:12:01 (GMT)
__ Runamok -:- flyers garage band style -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 17:24:09 (GMT)
__ __ Dave -:- More ideas -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 18:43:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Runamok -:- More ideas again -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 23:26:08 (GMT)
__ Dave -:- april programs -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 14:21:42 (GMT)
__ __ bloodboils -:- Alert Local Press -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 21:20:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Good Idea!!!! -:- Alert Local Press!!!! EVERYWHERE!!!! nt -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 23:13:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ dv -:- TO ARMS! TO ARMS! -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 23:54:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dave -:- To keyboards as well -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 09:39:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ dv -:- Not the ones I've talked to. -:- Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 00:10:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Good Idea!!! -:- TO ARMS! TO ARMS! -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 01:41:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ dv -:- Hey Good Idea: -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 02:22:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bloodboils -:- TO ARMS! TO ARMS! -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 00:10:51 (GMT)

JW -:- The Real 'GIFT' is Gratitude -- Trying TOO hard? -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 01:54:31 (GMT)
__ dv -:- God, I came three times!nt. -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 03:14:59 (GMT)
__ __ JW -:- Be Careful of the Computer Equipment (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 18:35:31 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Does this guy have shares in the company? (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 20:26:15 (GMT)
__ JW -:- This is truly frightening....... -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 18:06:17 (GMT)
__ Remy -:- The real gift is Macabre -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 04:38:24 (GMT)
__ bloodboils -:- excuse, me while i go vomit (nm) -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 02:03:36 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Why that nice name?? -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 13:14:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ bloodboils -:- Why that nice name?? ....cathartic expression... -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 15:08:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- Why that nice name?? ....cathartic expression... -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 17:49:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ dv -:- My blood boils for the entertainment of watching -:- Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 03:30:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- My blood boils for the entertainment of watching -:- Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 20:40:09 (GMT)

G -:- 'Perspectives' page at www.elanvital.org -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 00:33:59 (GMT)
__ G -:- Correction to link to 'Perspectives' page -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 01:02:12 (GMT)
__ __ bloodboils -:- more to wretch on (no message) -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 02:06:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- You mean 'retch on'? (no message) (nt for short) -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 20:28:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bloodboils -:- thanks for the correction (nmi) (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 21:56:56 (GMT)

Suzanne -:- Hi Everyone -:- Wed, Mar 29, 2000 at 19:31:39 (GMT)
__ Jane -:- Hi Everyone -:- Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 00:22:25 (GMT)
__ Anarchist -:- Hi Everyone -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 01:37:07 (GMT)
__ __ Father Lambrizo -:- Hi Everyone (edited) -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 05:33:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Padre -:- Too much chorizo nt -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 10:50:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ zelda -:- hey Lambrizo! Too much Lambrusco! NT -:- Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 05:58:34 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 21:17:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My interview with Joan Apter
Message:
Jus got off the phone with Joan who had ten or fifteen minutes for me while preparing for a little dinner party tonight. Nice of her to talk, I'm sure. I told her I'd be posting something about it and welcomed her to read what I wrote but she said that, while she's heard of the ex site, she's not interested in visiting it.

Joan is still a premie. She's not close to Maharaji personally anymore but she has absolutely no regrets about anything. She's particularly not into 'victimhood' and likes to remind her ex-premie friends (of which there seem to be a few) that we 'create our own reality'. If any part of our reality is unsatisfying we need to really look at ourselves and see why that is.

No, Joan doesn't mention Maharaji as such on her resume but certainly does tell anyone interested all about her spirituality once she gets the job.

Joan has no questions for Maharaji. If I do, I should ask them. No, not ask them of him (I explained how Raja Ji once confided in me that Maharaji won't even answer his questions) but ask them of myself.

Joan is into essential oils these days and follows a guy named Robert Young (Bill Young?). She told me that she understand that there are some negative web sites about him too but she's really not interested. She's got her experience, in her world and everything's just great.

We talked about her particular prominence in DLM / EV and what, if any, responsibilities that leaves her with in these later years. I asked her if, hypothetically of course, she were to discover conclusively that Maharaji was a fake would she feel obliged to go public with that information. After all, as she herself said, she still gets people coming up and telling her how inspiring she used to be, etc. Fortunately for Joan, she doesn't think she has any such responsibility to anyone. We all made our choices. Now what could be simpler than that?

Thanks for your time, Joan.

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 10:47:15 (GMT)
From: Mr A Hitler
Email: Adolph@bunker.com
To: Jim
Subject: My interview with Joan Apter
Message:
At last, I have found a kindred spirit! Wonderbar my dear Frauline Joan Apter because you have said what I was telling all those Jews when I was gasing them. I was telling them 'You are creating your own reality' because it was clearly their fault that they were in the gas chambers.

Likewise, all of those innocent civilians who were blown up into little pieces by the Russians in Chechnia recently had only themselves to blame and that seventeen year old boy who was driving a tractor in the direction of the border to get away from the fighting; well it was his own fault that a Russian fighter plane let off a rocket and blew him and his tractor into unreckognisable pieces of mangled flesh and bone fused with the metalic debris of the tractor.

It was his own Father's fault wasn't it, when his Father was weeping in front of the BBC cameras, telling of how his son had been murdered by the Russians; ha! as if it was their fault - he was just looking for a scapegoat, wasn't he my dear Frauline Joan.

My dear girl; don't worry about other people, just think of yourself. I always found it to be the best policy.

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 18:37:30 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Gotta love ya, Jimmy boy!
Message:
Jim: You are the only person with the cajones to call fecking Joan Apter and have this conversation with her! What a laugh to read your memo of the conversation! I rest easy knowing she too will reap what she sowed. Talk about myopic. Do you think you could call Bill Patterson next? While you´re at it, give him my phone number.

How´s biz in Vancouver? The European lads have been dissin´me! Luckily I have Rafael around to defend my honour.

I´m at the net cafe in Barcelona this moment, headed off to eat wonderful seafood in a few minutes. On Sunday, we´ll watch Barcelona vs. Valencia play soccer. They are both tops in their divisions, so it should be smashing....

Miss ya,
Marianne

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 14:38:33 (GMT)
From: Louis cipher
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Jimmy's my favourite too !!!! (nt)
Message:
fd
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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 19:20:02 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Speaking of Bill Patterson
Message:
Does anyone know whatever happened to Mahatma Patterson?
Every time I ever saw him he looked so glazed and dazed that he could barely stay in his skin. I remember hearing that eventually he flew the coop. Is that true?
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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 03:03:49 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The premies that basked in the devotional lime-
Message:
light, now have the most to hide.
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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 02:16:06 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The Infuriating Smugness of New Age Responsbility
Message:
We create our own reality. What the fuck does that mean? Doesn't it sound like an excuse for every kind of atrocity imaginable?

The Jews in Auschwitz 'created their own reality'?

Nothing is an 'accident', any 'accident' you have is your own damned fault, so don't create that bus that is about to run you over?

What kind of new age bullshit is Joan spewing?

And this is in line with what Alan Roettinger is also saying. I've got my experience, I'm happy with it, so who gives a shit about anybody else? The narcissism and the self-centeredness is appalling, and I can't imagine that anybody like that is very happy.

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 16:43:41 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Joan 'Cleopatra' Apter - in denial? (nt)
Message:
Joan 'Cleopatra' Apter - in denial? (nt)
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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 02:14:50 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: A premie's perspective
Message:
JW,

I think what you have to consider is what motivates a premie to have faith in the concept 'creating your own reality'. As a premie, you believe the way you feel is all in your own hands, dependent entirely on how much you practice K. If you're in tune with that place inside, the theory goes, you're not going to be too upset with the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.

'Creating your own reality' goes a long way to accepting that people without K are just going to suffer out of ignorance. They don't have K so what do you expect? Like M has said on dozens of occassions, when stormy seas strike, if you don't have that safe harbor to retreat to, you're going to be tossed about. But for the fortunate who have K and are grateful for it, when that storm strikes, you don't have to be victimized by it. You can create your own reality away from it by heading for the harbor.

So this is the premie perspective; because I have Knowledge, I don't have to be concerned with outer turmoil. I can retreat to an inner reality where the outer turmoil won't bother me. It's my choice. The phlosophy of 'creating your own reality' is just in step with that, so that's why premies have a fondness for it. It's part of the program.

I don't agree with it, myself. There are times when I'm just going to get pissed off to no end in spite of my best efforts to stay cool, and the blues will strike and do their thing, but hey, when you're a premie, you don't have to concern yourself with such reality. And reality is that you WILL suffer, now and again, maybe more so than not. But as a premie, you can at least console yourself with the fantasy that it's only happenning that I suffer because I choose to; perhaps if I was more advanced in my practice, I wouldn't have to. You might say that adopting the philosopy of 'creating your own reality' is an escape mechanism to avoid what reality really is. It gives you an illusion of being in control.

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 04:41:28 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: A premie's perspective
Message:
Jerry, I think you have nailed it here. It does have a lot to do with needing to feel in control and impervious from the winds of fortune. You nailed it that the myth and superstition abotu being a premie is that you will be kept safe from all the random stuff 'out there.'

But the older we get the more we see how random stuff can be. No matter how much one might be meditating, there is still stuff over which we have no control.

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 03:57:41 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: A premie's perspective
Message:
Thanks for that Jerry.
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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 16:38:53 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The Workingness of Taking Responsbility
Message:
JW,

So we don't create our own reality? Life is a TV dinner? Human beings are robots, billiard balls just banging into one another? I don't think so.

If I call you an asshole and you get angry, where is the source of the anger, i.e., where does the anger come from? Your mother? Your brother? Where does the anger come from? Your Oedipus complex? Television? The guy down the street?

All of your thoughts have one source and one source only - you! Your experience of life comes from you. You are the source of your thoughts and feelings!

Every time you fail to take responsibility for your experience, your 'personal reality,' you get a repeat performance. You get stuck repeating your stuff, like a broken record. You are the source.

For example, two guys get stuck in a traffic jam. One goes to sleep and the other rips his steering off in a rage. It's the same traffic jam for both yet they react differently. Where does the emotion come from? The traffic jam?

When I was a kid my father took me downtown once, and for the first time in my life I saw winos and derelicts going through garbage cans, while well dressed business people walked by. From that point on I always wondered what makes a person one way and another person another way. I think taking responsibility for you experience is the key. Many successful people have come form horrible backgrounds. Maybe positive thinking is another.

IMO realising that you are a co-creator and taking responsibility for your experience is the key. Blaming other gives away your power and is basically a waste of time. Life is what you make it.

By the way Jim, I thought your post about Joan Apter was spot on. That's what this site should be about.

-- Dogg

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Date: Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 01:55:51 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: blame the victim
Message:
All of your thoughts have one source and one source only - you! Your experience of life comes from you. You are the source of your thoughts and feelings!

That is an extremist position. Sure, to some degree we have free will and this effects our thoughts and feelings, but not completely. We are highly affected by our environment, what happens to us, and by the biology of our body. Why deny it? If you think you are unaffected by all this, you're kidding yourself. For example, if someone yells at you, you're going to be affected in some way. Some people may handle it better, but that's all.

Would you say to a starving child 'You create your own reality.' or 'Life is what you make it.'? Would you say this to all the poor people in the world? to a rape or mugging victim, to the victim of a con? This is 'blaming the victim'. Face it, shit happens to people, don't blame it on them.

There is a myth that Prem Rawat is impervious to what happens to him. It's total bullshit. I heard him blow up when a premie had the courage to confront him about the ashrams and instructors. It was clear to me, even though I was highly brainwashed, that he was not in control of himself. He stammered, then started yelling.

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 11:58:54 (GMT)
From: Premie opinions on
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: what this site should be about??!!
Message:
By the way Jim, I thought your post about Joan Apter was spot on. That's what this site should be about.

What business is it of any practising premie to dictate what this site 'should be about'? You'll be demanding proportionality for pro-M posters next.

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 19:58:37 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: The Workingness of Taking Responsbility
Message:
Dep I 100% agree with your perspective on that one. Well said.
All the best to you , Hal.
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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 22:36:12 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Thanks Hal
Message:
Hal,

Thanks Hal, but I wouldn't trust everything I experienced on drugs. As Jim so eloquently stated there are certain natural realities like gravity that we must observe.

But I agree, there are things that happen that have an intuitive validity. You just know it's true. As Wordsworth said, 'The child is father of the man.'

I'll trust my heart over my head any time. That doesn't mean that I think my mind is bad though, just limited.

-- Dogg

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 22:49:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: And that's EXACTLY why you can't think well
Message:
I'll trust my heart over my head any time.

Too bad you can't just park your mind somewhere. It's dangerous watching you continue to drive around when you're distracted like this.

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 20:16:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Are you serious, Hal?
Message:
Hal,

You can't be serious. If you are, too bad. I'd also wonder what you say to my response to Dog. That kind of thinking -- that new-age 'create-your-own-reality' crap only begins to stick its nose out of the gate because its based on bad (i.e. misused) language. It's all just stupid new-age word games. I'm surprised you can't see that.

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 20:44:04 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Are you serious, Hal?
Message:
This is a futile attempt to explain Jim. A few times in my life I have experienced that I do create my own reality. This is an experience I first had on LSD many years ago when walking along a pavement (sidewalk) . I suddenly felt like the ground was only created when I stepped on it and that the whole world was a learning illusion which a higher aspect of myself was manifesting.

Of course this makes no sense to rational mind and at times I have dismissed it myself. Sometimes I would have tended to agree with you on this but due to my 'seeing' experiences ,I have to be truthful and admit that there is something to the concept that we 'create our own reality.'

Quite honestly I don't have the intellectual apparatus to explain this concept very well at all.
It has become one of the 'new age' concepts and I think people bandy that stuff around too freely without having truly understood that it doesn't mean that our ego/personality creates our reality but the 'higher self'does.

Jim I know what you think of all this and I am not trying to convince you of the truth of it. You asked me the question and I am responding sincerely to it.

Just because dogg's a premie doesn't mean that I diss everything he says. I actually like Dep's forum posts and I think that of all the premies who post here that he is the most honest and open. Also I think I probably empathise with him because of my dogvotee personna!

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 05:22:17 (GMT)
From: Hugh
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Being at cause over life
Message:
I think Joan means being more at cause over (her) life than effect when she talks about creating your own reality. Of course you can't create other people's reality but you can create your own.

This goes along with the premie idea of being more at cause over ones mind instead of being effect of it.

When you are in a higher emotional state ie enthusiasm you are much more at cause over life than when you are in a low emotion state like apathy for example.

I can't speak for Joan but I don't think it has anything to do with drug experience and I think once again this forum might have misinterpreted a quote. I mean not creating reality in the Buddhist idea of creating matter but creating your own reality by being at cause over your reactions, relationships and attitudes to situations.

Just an opinion.

Hugh

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 21:56:47 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Hugh
Subject: Being at cause over life
Message:
What does 'at cause' and 'at effect' mean? Is that EST jargon or something? Sheesh! I do understand your discrepancy, you are saying we do have control over how we react to experiences but are not able to control matter. Maybe if Dog had pointed this out early on in the discussion we all wouldn't have gotten so hot.

BTW, Hugh, Why use jargon at all if you are writing to an audience that may not know your teminology? Why not just say it in plain English?

Yes maybe we all got hung up on what Dog meant. But Dog was also implying that one should be able to pull oneself up by one's bootstraps if one is faced with a tragedy or challenge. This is not always possible for all people at all times, and so his responses seemed cold. His insistence that we can create our own reality seemed naive as well, and seemed to imply that if we were all practicing knowledge that these difficult things wouldn't upset us. I find this to be de-humanizing, as I found the whole premie trip to be de-humanizing.

I find these buzz phrases like 'at cause' or 'at effect' to be really de-humanizing also. It implies that we are always either one or the other. And life is alot more complex than that. I think we can feel that we are in control, by doing certain things to help ourselves feel more in control, even though we may know intellectually that we are not in control of everything in our lives. But as humans we are vulnerable animals who simply cannot control everything around us.

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 22:10:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Careful, Hal
Message:
A few times in my life I have experienced that I do create my own reality. This is an experience I first had on LSD many years ago when walking along a pavement (sidewalk) . I suddenly felt like the ground was only created when I stepped on it and that the whole world was a learning illusion which a higher aspect of myself was manifesting.

Hal,

Let's be a little more accurate about this, shall we? All that you're really saying is that while your brain was sizzling on a hallucinatory drug you felt as if the world was just coming together on demand as you conjured it up. All you got there was a psychedelic hypothesis and Hal, we've all had those, now haven't we? The question is, was your theory of the moment -- your extremely interesting and exciting-in-the-moment I'm sure -- theory true? Was it?

Well, one thing you could have done is what many brave psychedlic theorists like yourself have done. You could have tested your theory. For example, you could have walked off a bridge to see if you could get a little pavement happening on short demand. Alternatively (and I know this is testing a diferent, opposite, hypothesis but, hell, this is acid science anyway, right? Did you get laid that night?), alternatively, you could have walked into fast traffic to see if you could eliminate parts of your reality like cars when you didn't really want them there.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you view these things, you did not do these experiments and maybe for that reason alone are here to share your theory with us.

Hal, did it ever occur to you that maybe you were 'wrong'? Yes, I know. I've had profound psychedlic visions too. But how in the world can I distinguish between my over-amped brain shit and truth without some objective experimentation? It's bad enough trying to sort out regular brain shit from reality. But acid brain shit? Come now!

Big problem, Hal: premie usage of word experience. It's used as a conversation stopper. If you said you 'thought' this were all true you'd be leaving the door open for all sorts of questions as to how you got that thought, what reason you'd have to believe it, all sorts of things. Gild the lily with the potent word 'expeience' however, and the implication is that you're attesting to a very solid, incontrovertible direct observation of activity. Your acid vision -- like claims about 'Knowledge' -- doesn't qualify. Too much thought and conjecture trying to be squeezed in under the 'experience' mantle.

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 00:23:49 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Careful, Hal
Message:
I said 'first had on Lsd.'That doesn't mean that I haven't subsequently had that experience without drugs.I also said that it was a higher part of myself not my normal ego/personality self which I THINK creates my reality.

Jim , you seem to have an irrational problem with the terms experience or feel. Do you think orgasm when you have sex? Or do you think you love your family?

This is what I find testing about some of the exes on this forum. I've never encountered such cynicism about love , joy ,
higher consciousness, awareness, heart.
I hope there is a new age in this world because it sure has sucked so far. However it really is humanity's choice whether to create a more positive reality!

The student fish asked the philosopher fish ' so where is this ocean you keep talking about?'

Returning to the creating one's own reality debate,I'll attempt to explain , although I certainly am not blessed with your sharp intellect. If I smoke tobacco and contract lung cancer then it's safe to assume that I created my experience Ok? The more difficult one for me to attempt to explain is when events occur which come from outside of us . That's where I becomes we. We as a human race collectively create our reality. I THINK we are all responsible for co-creating the reality of life on planet earth.

I'm not a philosopher Jim so forgive my ineptitude in clarifying. Anyway I tried.

Have a good weekend

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 00:54:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Careful, Hal
Message:
Hal,

What I'm seeing again and again is that sloppiness with language, particularly new age-style, leads to some very bizarre beliefs. Then when people start changing their lives according to those beliefs, what started as a simple little game, a little new age poetic moment or so, becomes disastrous.

No, I don't have a problem with the word 'experience', Maharaji and premies do. Anytime your conception of something is even the least bit questionable, it's got to be wrong to simply bundle the whole phenomenon up as 'experience'. What you're really talking about is your core 'experience', sure enough, but then also all the ways you've conceptualized it. Now what happened to you on acid didn't even necessarily have a core experience. Just some thoughts going through your brain and that's about it. You say you've had that 'experience' again without drugs? What you really mean, Hal, is that you've had that thought.

This is what I find testing about some of the exes on this forum. I've never encountered such cynicism about love , joy ,
higher consciousness, awareness, heart.
I hope there is a new age in this world because it sure has sucked so far. However it really is humanity's choice whether to create a more positive reality!

Maybe you should go back to Maharaji, huh? Or if he's not the answer some other new age or traditional faith that can stand between you and this miserable world. Whatever, eh? Do what you're going to do but PLEASE don't fuck up the language! Humanity's not going to 'create a more positive reality' because reality's just reality. It includes all the many, many stars and galaxies and I do think it's a bit presumtuous to think that our little species can create a good or or a bad. And don't be calling me a nitpicking stickler for detail because I've seen what you guys do with this 'your reality' thing given half a chance. It becomes much more than a simple poetic phrase (albeit senseless) and tursn into a very misleading philosophy that, as Joe and others have said, impairs one's sense of responsibility.

Returning to the creating one's own reality debate,I'll attempt to explain , although I certainly am not blessed with your sharp intellect. If I smoke tobacco and contract lung cancer then it's safe to assume that I created my experience Ok?

No! That'd only be true if you had full control over the cancer cells which, of course, you don't. You know, two guys smoke like chimneys, one gets cancer, the other doesn't. Which one created his reality? Neither. They both played with something (tobacco) that they knew might lead to cancer but neither wanted nor actually made the cancer happen. Can't you be a bit more careful than that? Is what I'm saying really so tricky? Hardly. What I'm saying is simple as pie. In fact, the only tricky stuff begins when you start playing the new age word games.

The more difficult one for me to attempt to explain is when events occur which come from outside of us . That's where I becomes we. We as a human race collectively create our reality. I THINK we are all responsible for co-creating the reality of life on planet earth.

Hal, get a fucking dictionary already, will 'ya? Look up, 'reality'. It doesn't mean 'situation' or 'predicament' and it certianly doesn't mean 'mess'. Yes, we affect reality (there's only one) with everything we do. But we don't 'own' it (whatever the hell that means!), we don't have our own individual versions and we don't create it. Reality is just what truly is.

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Date: Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 15:39:58 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Definitions of reality
Message:
From www.dictionary.com:

reality

1. The quality or state of being actual or true.
2. One, such as a person, an entity, or an event, that is actual: “the weight of history and political realities” (Benno C. Schmidt, Jr.).
3. The totality of all things possessing actuality, existence, or essence.
4. That which exists objectively and in fact: Your observations do not seem to be about reality.
5. Philosophy. That which has necessary existence and not contingent existence.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition
---
1. The state or quality of being real; actual being or existence of anything, in distinction from mere appearance; fact.
2. That which is real; an actual existence; that which is not imagination, fiction, or pretense; that which has objective existence, and is not merely an idea.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary
---
1: all of your experiences that determine how things appear to you
2: the state of being actual or real
3: the state of the world as it really is rather than as you might want it to be
4: the quality possessed by something that is real
Source: WordNet ® 1.6

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Date: Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 18:41:49 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Just tried all for 'hodological' - 0
Message:
Hi G,

I even tried hodology too. Amazing how many words there are in the English language - estimates I've read go from half a million to 3 million. I wonder when they'll get the Oxford English on line - t's generally too time consuming to go to a library. I know, I should get the CD Rom version - one day.

Looking forward to hearing from you sometime. You've posted some interesting posts and links, and I enjoyed our 'conversations' back when I when I understood less about what this site is about.

Stonor

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 08:42:56 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey Jim
Message:
I feel like I'm in the ring with Tyson here. I think it may be wise to stay down here on the ground and wait for the 10 count!

When I talk with you I really notice that I didn't get a higher education. Meeting M at 17 put an end to academia for me.

I surrender, Guilty as charged.

Have a great weekend.

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 17:34:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Dog, if you really think about it, that's nonsense
Message:
So we don't create our own reality? Life is a TV dinner? Human beings are robots, billiard balls just banging into one another? I don't think so.

Dog,

There are many, many stops between 'creating your own reality', a very stupid and dangerous new-age idea, and people as 'robots' or 'billiard balls'. Are you willing to really look at this? Because, if you are, I think you'll have to agree that what you're saying really makes no sense. Shall we?

If I call you an asshole and you get angry, where is the source of the anger, i.e., where does the anger come from? Your mother? Your brother? Where does the anger come from? Your Oedipus complex? Television? The guy down the street?

All of your thoughts have one source and one source only - you! Your experience of life comes from you. You are the source of your thoughts and feelings!

This is really bad thinking, bud. Really bad. It's so bungled up but I'll try to help but, well, no promises, 'kay? We'll just do what we can to help ol' Doggie here.

Okay, now if you call me an 'asshole' and I get angry, where does the anger 'come from'? Your first problem, Dog, is your careless use of language. What do you mean, exactly by 'come from'? We know that the anger is my own emotion so, of course, the anger is in me. That's where my emotions are, after all. But where did it 'come from'? Why, it came from the situation, Dog. And to the extent that you played a part in the situation, you might share some responsibility for generating said 'anger'. Capiche? Again, only really bad language and thinking could leave you satisfied that I was the 'only source' for that feeling. The feeling arose from my interaction with the world, in this case my interaction with another person, namely you, who've just called me a name.

Why deny the obvious? You had your role in the hypothetical situation. For whatever reason, good or bad, you chose to call me a name. I reacted. We're both responsible for the interaction and it's absolutely ridiculous to try say otherwise. How ridiculous? Extremely ridiculous! It'd be like this. Say you have a shop and one day I drive my motorcyle right through your plate-glass store front. Your 'reaction' might be in your own thoughts, words or feelings but it'd be bizarre to say that you were somehow solely 'responsible' for them. Sure, you're responsible to the extent that the law is going to fault you like crazy if you get a gun, come voer to my house later that night and shoot me. You're responsible to keep your emotional reaction within what we all consider 'reasonable' bounds. But I'm still the guy who drove my bike through your window and I am indeed responsible for making you upset. Your new-age way of thinking would avoid that most obvious truth.

Every time you fail to take responsibility for your experience, your 'personal reality,' you get a repeat performance. You get stuck repeating your stuff, like a broken record. You are the source.

Aren't you the guy who keeps protesting about how you're not saddled with a bunch of silly concepts? What's this then? Deputy Dogg's profound Law of Karma? I cringe just to imagine one of my 'real world' friends seeing that I actually waste time talking to people who think this way. Okay, say I'm in a bad car accident and I don't think it was my fault at all. In fact, I think it was fully the other guy's. In fact, I sue him. For years I fight him, his insurance company, his lawyers, everyone who's trying to hold me at fault instead of him. I never, for a moment, do otherwise. When do I get my next car accident? How stupid!

For example, two guys get stuck in a traffic jam. One goes to sleep and the other rips his steering off in a rage. It's the same traffic jam for both yet they react differently. Where does the emotion come from? The traffic jam?

First off, neither guy 'created their own reality' in terms of getting stuck in the traffic jam, did they? No, of course not. So all you're really talking about, then, is just how people react to various situations. Big difference between that and creating the cituation to begin with. Okay, so some guy freaks and the other guy doesn't. Big deal. Again, to answer your inane new-age question, the 'emotion comes from' the situation.

When I was a kid my father took me downtown once, and for the first time in my life I saw winos and derelicts going through garbage cans, while well dressed business people walked by. From that point on I always wondered what makes a person one way and another person another way. I think taking responsibility for you experience is the key. Many successful people have come form horrible backgrounds. Maybe positive thinking is another.

You seem to know so little about people it's astounding. REally, I find it so offense to think of you sitting there pontificating about the 'winos and derelicts' who didn't 'take responsibility' for 'their experience'. Everything you're saying is simplistic and childish. 'Taking responsibility' is an empty, new age phrase that means nothing. You can't tell me how much any one 'wino' did or didn't 'take responsibility' for himself. You can't tell me where he came from or why. You can't even tell me how much 'positive thinking' this guy did or didn't have. You can only tell me how superficial your own thinking can be and that you can tell me indirectly, believe me.

IMO realising that you are a co-creator and taking responsibility for your experience is the key. Blaming other gives away your power and is basically a waste of time. Life is what you make it.

This is all usueless new age jargon. You might as well be talking like 'Dogvotee'. You're saying nothing. 'Co-creator'? Who made that stupid idea up? It makes no sense. 'Giving away your power'? More of the same. You're programming in a junk language, Dogg.

By the way Jim, I thought your post about Joan Apter was spot on. That's what this site should be about.

This site is often about this however because people like you psot shit like the above.

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 21:13:56 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Most people think that's nonsense
Message:
Jim,

You say, 'We know that the anger is my own emotion so, of course, the anger is in me. That's where my emotions are, after all. But where did it 'come from'? Why, it came from the situation, Dog. And to the extent that you played a part in the situation, you might share some responsibility for generating said 'anger'. Capiche? Again, only really bad language and thinking could leave you satisfied that I was the 'only source' for that feeling. The feeling arose from my interaction with the world, in this case my interaction with another person, namely you, who've just called me a name.'

So the emotion came from the situation did it? Some guy breaks the law by punching someone out in a bar and when the judge asks if he is responsible, the guy answers, 'No your honour. The situation is responsible.' So the judge throws the situation in jail for 30 days.

I could call you a son of a bitch and you could see it as a joke and laugh or go into a rage. Same words. One person's personal 'reality' might be totally different from someone else's. One person loves a film another person hates it. Where does the film take place? On the screen? No Jimmy boy. It seems they both saw different films, yet there was only one. So where does the film take place?

'Say you have a shop and one day I drive my motorcycle right through your plate-glass storefront. Your 'reaction' might be in your own thoughts, words or feelings but it'd be bizarre to say that you were somehow solely 'responsible' for them. Sure, you're responsible to the extent that the law is going to fault you like crazy if you get a gun, come over to my house later that night and shoot me. You're responsible to keep your emotional reaction within what we all consider 'reasonable' bounds. But I'm still the guy who drove my bike through your window and I am indeed responsible for making you upset. Your new-age way of thinking would avoid that most obvious truth.'

Suppose I wasn't upset! Suppose I had just taken out insurance and saw it as a bad accident. Suppose I was more concerned with your condition and if you were all right. Suppose it was an insurance scam. Suppose I hated my store and wanted to sell and saw this as a perfect opportunity? If you were to make the motorcyclist responsible for your thoughts and feelings wouldn't that be giving your power away. That would make you a bit player in someone else's movie.

I know this is hard to get Jim. Most people don't think anything is their fault. They go through life blaming their parents, blaming their religion, blaming their race, blaming their height, blaming their (you fill in the blank), for everything bad that happens to them.

They just go on whining and whining and whining and whining about how their girlfriend has done them wrong, how the world has done them wrong, how God has done them wrong, how their karma has done them wrong, how their situations have done them wrong, how society has done them wrong, and they go on and on and on and on. It's really fun to listen to people like that isn't it?

No Jim, we are each responsible for how we react to situations. Our mental programming our files determine how we respond.

Have you ever seen a stage hypnotist hypnotise someone and tell them, 'Every time I say the word green you will start singing an opera song or start acting like a chicken.' He says 'green' and the person starts singing 'O Solo Mio.' It's hilarious to witness this, until you realise that most people are living in a stimulus-response world of hypnosis. No. we are responsible for our mental conditioning, what is recorded in us.

If you go around thinking 'my emotion comes from the situation,' your are going to be victimised very easily. No James, it's mea culpa every time. We create our reactions, situations don't. We are each responsible for the wqy we experience things. All of our thoughts and feelings have one source and one source only, US!

Sure it's definitely easier to blame me, Maharaji, your mom, your arachnophobia, your whatever, but it doesn't add to the quality of your life.

We are each the sole source of our own experience. When you accept that you are going to give up 90% of the bullshit that is running your life. Just trying to help.

-- Dogg

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 22:35:53 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: You're discussing this VERY sloppily
Message:
It pains me to drag my mind through some of these discussions with you new age bird-brains. But, I'm doing it so here goes.

You wrote:

So the emotion came from the situation did it? Some guy breaks the law by punching someone out in a bar and when the judge asks if he is responsible, the guy answers, 'No your honour. The situation is responsible.' So the judge throws the situation in jail for 30 days.

Once again, I'm struck by how stupid you can sound. Your example is unrealistic and I can see that you had to make it so otherwise it would backfire on you. A more reasonable example would be of a guy who tells the judge the reason, if he has one, for punching the guy. No one in the world would jsut say 'the situation' and leave it at that. If the guy's going to say anything on his own behalf (besides 'sorry') he's going to explain the situation. And why? For the very reason you're trying to avoid: because it makes a difference in the judge's assessment of his culpability or blameworthiness. Maybe the guy was provoked. Maybe something the victim said or did frightened him such that he thought he had to strike first to avert an attack. Whatever the reason, the judge does indeed want to know all about the 'situation' so he can ascribe the right amount of fault between the parties.

No, he's not going to throw the 'situation' into jail. But he's going to want to know all about that situation before sentencing anyone.

Your next example -- or more accurately, your next butchering of my own example -- is a sublime indication about how inept you are at thinking clearly. Sorry, Dogg, but that's true. Responding to my hypothetical about me driving thorugh your storefront, you wrote:

Suppose I wasn't upset! Suppose I had just taken out insurance and saw it as a bad accident. Suppose I was more concerned with your condition and if you were all right. Suppose it was an insurance scam. Suppose I hated my store and wanted to sell and saw this as a perfect opportunity? If you were to make the motorcyclist responsible for your thoughts and feelings wouldn't that be giving your power away. That would make you a bit player in someone else's movie.

Your answer is dumb as hell but to show that I need to break it down a bit. First, I was trying to pick a very simple example of some noncontroversial 'situation' that would trigger a certain response in anyone. I forgot how premies don't like to think or argue straight but rather play with words and particularly thoughts and ideas the way toddlers play with crayons -- in their mouths, smiling, gurggling, drooling but not making any real sense.

Look, Dogg, the fact is, most storeowners don't like to see their shops destroyed. Even if they have insurance. And my point was all about how a normal shopkeeper, in the circumstance, would most definitely be pissed off if I drove through his plate glass window. But you want to fuck with that, huh? Okay, let's see if we can find some other example....

Here's one:

Say a guy walks up to you and your two daughters and takes a gun and shoots your youngest right between the eyes. Say she's eating an ice-cream cone at the time. Strawberry. Okay, now tell me how the 'enlightened' man that you are, you would avoid 'whining' and all that shit. Go on, Dogg, tell me how you didn't really want that daughter anyway or whatever other nonsense you've got to offer.

You with us, Hal?

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 23:11:08 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You're discussing this VERY angrily
Message:
Jim,

You say, 'a normal shopkeeper, in the circumstance, would most definitely be pissed off if I drove through his plate glass window.'

Well fuck normal! There are people on this planet with realities different from yours Jim. And I know you would call them idiots and birdbrains, because you of course have the 'best' reality.

'Say a guy walks up to you and your two daughters and takes a gun and shoots your youngest right between the eyes. Say she's eating an ice-cream cone at the time. Strawberry. Okay, now tell me how the 'enlightened' man that you are, you would avoid 'whining' and all that shit. Go on, Dogg, tell me how you didn't really want that daughter anyway or whatever other nonsense you've got to offer.'

First off I would be devastated. And then I would own all the horror and anger and grief that that situation would bring up. I would also probably resort to prayer. Then I would see to it the person was punished to the fullest extent of the law.

Helen in an earlier post said 'shit happens' and I agree! Sometimes shit happens. You can resist it and have a nervous breakdown or you can accept it and keep on keeping on.

I wouldn't spend the rest of my life grieving over a horrible incident like that though, blaming God etc. I would do my best to get over it. Owning my feelings and prayer would be part of the strategy.

Fuck, you really like to go for the jugular don't you.

-- Dogg

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 23:32:30 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Yeah, I'm angry. So what? I'm 'owning' it
Message:
I'm angry as hell. Yeah, that's right. I'm angry that someone I know actually thinks this way.

Your response to my comment on the shopkeeper being 'normal' shows that, typically, you're paddling thorugh this discussion without any sense of direction. You don't even remember what we're talking about is how it looks when you say shit like 'fuck normal'. You don't even remember what the issue was.

So I ask you about another situation that would most definitely trigger a strong emotional response in you. You played dullard smarty-pants with the first example (the shopkeeper) so I posited something else. And your response? First, you say 'sometimes shit happens'. I take it you have no real idea how that idea fits, if it does at all, with your 'creating your own reality' one. But you don't hvae to make sense of any of this anyway, right? You'll go with your heart on this one, I'm guessing. Am I right? A good time for a little heart? When what you're saying doesn't add up, doesn't make sense? When a more honest (decidedly NOT new age) person might say 'Hey, maybe you're right there. Maybe this doesn't make sense' a new age asshole like you can just run and hide behind your 'heart'.

You're a joke, Dogg. Your thinking is junk. Go 'own' that, why don't you?

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 03:36:00 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: If you truly owned your anger it would be gone (nt
Message:
alkfj
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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 03:45:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: I'm owning the fact that I'm thinking of outing u
Message:
Sorry, Dog, I've about had it. I can't understand why I have to put up with this nonsense from some cult member who 'owns' so much of his life that he has to wear the false indentity of a cartoon character. There's a sharp incongruity here that's starting to bug me.

So please help me out. If I were to out you, would that be something you'd created? And your emotional reaction? What would that be? I take it you can shoose these things in advance, right? Why wait and let circumstance dictate when you should react or not react to something? Why not react beforehand at your convenience, not some lame 'situation's?

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 04:16:07 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You promised not to (nt)
Message:
adljfkasf
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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 07:40:34 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Yes, BUT ..........
Message:
Dogg,

To be exact, you emailed me under your real name without mentioning you were posting here as 'Dogg'. I replied, always happy to hear from an old friend. I asked for you rnumber, I think, you gave it and I called. Right? Something like that? Anyway, when we talked I asked you, without really thinking about it, if you'd ever posted. You kind of demurred coyly and suddenly I realized I was onto something. I then immediiately asked if you were 'Deputy Dog', just on a hunch, and, before you could answer 'yes' or 'no' I told you I wouldn't tell if you were. You then said 'yes'.

So, you're right. I promised. You got me on that one. However, just to warn you, if I get angry enough with you I might reconsider that promise. How can I do that? Easy. If it starts to strike me that I've made an unfair deal and the inequity continues to slap me in the face I'm going to do something about it. If I think that your anonymity starts looking like a premie's sniper's post, fuck my promise. But don't worry, Dogg. After all, just another opportunity for you to practise what you preach:

Resistance is the road to ruin. Acceptance is the road to clarity and happiness.

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 04:29:41 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: promises
Message:
Jim is right. Really, Jim cannot do anything to change your reality. If he outs you, you created that. If it bothers you, it is because you choose to let it bother you. If it hurts your relationships with people you love, well, just listen to your heart. People really should not have to worry about the promises they make to others because if it bothers other people it is their problem because they are choosing to let it bother them.

Do I beleive this crap. Of course not. How we treat other people, including you DD, does matter. That's the point.

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 09:08:42 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: promises
Message:
Susan,

I don't think that Doggie is saying that it doesn't matter how you treat others is he ? If we treat others poorly then we are creating a poor situation for ourselves.If we act uncaringly or aggressively to others it returns to us. If I get aggressive with Jim he's sure to come back at me with even more ferociousness. I consider that if I take responsibility for the way I behave towards others I am creating a better reality for them and me.

Love. New age idiot Hal.

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 18:29:41 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Dog, if you really think about it, that's nonsense
Message:
Right on, Jim. Well said. I would just add that implicit in what Dog says is that there is something negative about feeling anger. Like it isn't a natural, normal, and often beneficial reaction to a situation. And that's what he is talking about. Reacting to the outside world in a variety of ways.

My other comment to the drivel Dog posted is, if Dog can control his own reality, why does he need Maharaji?

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 17:40:31 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What I would have said had I been as articulate as
Message:
you are. Thanks. This stuff really hits a nerve with me. It isn't just premies either. All sorts of deviant personalities love to use this gobbledigook to excuse their own faults and those of whom they choose to side with.
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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 17:07:37 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: The problem is people use this way of thinking
Message:
to absolve themselves of any responsibility for how their actions affect others.

Your point about the traffic jam is fine. The asshole one really isn't.

In this life ( oh God that sounds premielike ) we do have a responsibility to be aware of how our actions affect others. If you were to walk up to me on the street and call me an asshole without justification it would disturb me. And no, I would not buy the trip that I am only disturbed because I choose to be. I would especially not buy that you should feel no responsibility for my feelings because I choose them.

I have seen this psychobabble at work in many places. And most often, it is used by people who have hurt others to absolve themselves of responsibility for how their own actions affect others. This is at the heart of what Joe was saying, at least as I understood it.

I always use this sort of analogy, but I see the sort of harm this worldview can do in my work. As you may know, I am a labor and delivery nurse. Let's say a mom loses a baby. She is overcome with grief. People want her to 'get over it', they do not want her to talk about it because the reality that horrible things like babies dying or being born with birth defects disturbs them, she needs to talk about it. Vry often these grieving parents get absolutely no support or understanding because people think they are somehow CHOOSING to feel the way they do. It is ugly. And exceedingly cruel. Lets say I as a nurse walk up to them and say 'hey, you are choosing to feel this way, get over it you jerks'.....when they feel wounded by my words are they choosing that? Hell, no. I would be almost criminal to be that cruel, and their hatred of me would be entirely justified, and not a 'choice'.

My view on Joan Apter as quoted by Jim is that she is indeed hiding behind the smokescreen of this particular brand of psychobabble. Do we create our own reality?Well only to an extent. We have choices about a lot of things, our choices do affect the reality in which we live. But much in life we do not control. The most harmful way this 'we create our own reality' and 'we choose how we feel' can be used is how she used it. To deny the reality of abuse and unethical behavior. Really, as Joe said, it can be used to hide from ANY kind of responsibility for even the most hideous of crimes. And I see premies use it to hide from the realities of Rawat's world. It is very sad.

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 22:07:49 (GMT)
From: Dog
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: The problem is people use this way of thinking
Message:
Susan,

You say, The problem is people use this way of thinkingMessage: to absolve themselves of any responsibility for how their actions affect others.

You can't control other people, you can always control yourself. There will always be uncaring, insensitive people in the world.

Let's say a mom loses a baby. She is overcome with grief. People want her to 'get over it', they do not want her to talk about it because the reality that horrible things like babies dying or being born with birth defects disturbs them, she needs to talk about it. Vry often these grieving parents get absolutely no support or understanding because people think they are somehow CHOOSING to feel the way they do. It is ugly. And exceedingly cruel.

Anyone who would say that to a woman who just lost a baby should be fired. Loosing a baby would be devastating to me. I have four children. Grieving over horrible events is natural and even necessary. I would realize however that the grief is coming from me. And I would own it and experience it. I wouldn't blame God or anything else or anyone else, and I would probably get over it faster.

There are some people who would see the death of a baby as a sign from God that He or She didn't want the baby to live and they would accept that and get over it. And there are people who would whine all their lives, and never get over it, and make themselves sick.

-- Dogg

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 22:54:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Dog
Subject: A little hypocritical, Dogg?
Message:
Grieving over horrible events is natural and even necessary.

Now tell me why that would be? Sounds like 'whining' to me. Look, Doggie, either you're creating your own reality or yoou're not. Baby dies, so what? Create happiness. And not later, right NOW! Quit fucking around, slumming in the land of illusion. There is nothing at all natural or necessary about negative feelings. It's all up to you. Right?

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 23:14:24 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You poor helpless victim (nt)
Message:
aldjf
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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 22:43:16 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Dog
Subject: glad you won't be my nurse Dog
Message:
whine all their lives?

I hope you never find out.

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 23:20:58 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: glad you won't be my nurse Dog
Message:
Susan,

Can you see the value in getting over the outrageous knocks this world sometimes gives us?

-- Dogg

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 02:06:50 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: yes.
Message:
But if I would never, ever, call a grieving parent a whiner. Even if she was a 90 year woman shedding tear over a child she lost when she was twenty.

One thing about moving on from loss and hurt is that the proccess is rarely sped up by those who can't tolerate the reality of another persons pain.

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 01:19:12 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Admit it, you have some effect on how you react to
Message:
situations, you don't create the whole of your reality.

Why is that so hard for you to admit?

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 04:53:27 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Admit it, you have some effect on how you react to
Message:
hamzen,

You are right. I don't create gravity. In fact if I make up my own rules r.e. gravity I'll be in serious trouble. I can choose how I react to things.

I can resist what happens and break under the strain or I can accept what happens and relax.

I had no idea what a battle zone I was going to create here. If you want to know more about this acceptance stuff, I suggest you take the Forum or get involved in vipassana or insight meditation. Ram Dass talks about it a bit in Be Here Now.

Resistance is the road to ruin. Acceptance is the road to clarity and happiness.

-- Dogg

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 22:07:55 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: 'accept and relax' this!
Message:
Dog,
Do you think it is always a good idea to 'accept and relax' when you are faced with a personal challenge or tragedy? I don't think this is the way most people feel in control of a difficult situation. The relaxing and acceptnace may come later but I don't think people can skip over the other stages. The other stages--anger, freaking out, talking about the problem, crying, etc--are just as important. See, I don't think just skipping to the relax part is human, I think that is the robotic premie reaction to when bad things happen, not the human reaction. I think premies (I don't mean you necessarily) are trying to skip over their humanity and transcend it somehow. The fallacy is thinking there is something wrong with one's humanity. There is nothing wrong with it, and trying to stay in ahigh place of meditation all the time is an attempt to anesthestize oneself to real life human stuff.
Helen, (glad I am not a premie anymore--sheesh!)
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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 09:33:45 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: You've just done it again dog, CONTEXT
Message:
'Resistance is the road to ruin. Acceptance is the road to clarity and happiness'

Another grand declaration that falls apart within a moments thinking.

France 1940? I think not.
Serious mental health problems, I think not.
Captain of a football team losing 1-0 with two minutes to go, I think the whole of Manchester Uniteds supporters would find that laugable considering what did happen at the European Cup Final last year.
Someone being abused, I think not.

Want me to go on? I know a little about Buddhist meditation, I've practiced meditation with a Buddhist attitude for over 20 years.
But if you were SERIOUS about your Buddhist approacxh you'd know how specific the use of language is there.

All we are asking here is that you use language with at least some of the care that you tell us you do with life itself. Since language is the way of communicating, and since I presume you want to be heard, it seems an unbelievably simple concept to grasp.

Especially since this is one of our arguments here that gm plays language games that fucks with peoples reality models I would have thought you'd make some effort. The way you talk makes you look a bit shallow, and tends to confirm our impression of premie sloppiness, which again is a bit odd since you say that gm gives you clarity, either that or you're not serious and just playing games.

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 18:47:52 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Susan and Dog
Subject: The problem is people use this way of thinking
Message:
The grieving family is such a good example, Susan, thank you for that. I am fed up with this type of thinking as well, and the derelict and wino example of Dog's makes me see red. I sure hope that that trip downtown didn't impede your 'wonderful experience', Dog. How awful that those winos and derelicts couldn't pull themselves together! This experience of seeing those horrid people was probably pivotal in making you the detached premie that you are today. Just don't let those awful people touch you--oh, let's see, if you wish hard enough maybe they will go away!

Life is so much more complex than the black and white idea that we 'create our own reality.' Inherent in the create your own reality theory is that if we want something bad enough we should be able to manifest it. SOmetimes shit just happens, to the most wonderful loving people. SOmetimes people lose it mentally or physically for medical reasons, such as genetics, and end up homeless, or a wino. If they are lucky and have support and health insurance they may be able to get help and live a better quality of life. But when they are down in the bottom of the hole, I hardly think they are co-creators at that point.

Take this cancer my husband has. Is he creating this experience? Does he have the power to create spindled or non-spindled cancer cells in his eye and give himself cancer? Should he 'take responsibility' for creating this experience? I don't think so, Dog. How helpful is that kind of thinking?--not at all helpful. More helpful to me is the idea that stuff just happens sometimes that we all have to deal with in the best way we can, getting the best help we can get. If we're lucky and have access to that help. I think this 'create your own reality' is the pervue of the privileged.

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 02:14:25 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: thanks Helen
Message:
And I am so sorry your husband is sick. It must be a really scary thing to go through. I absolutley can see the applicability of this discussion to cancer. People are so afraid, and rightfully so, of it that often they use this kind of crap as a defense of why it won't happen to them. But as the title of that very good book goes, bad things do happen to good people. And very often we did nothing whatsoever to create the situation.

Isn't it sad to see that if people express their pain and grief or are rightfully angry they can be labeled as being in the victim role? To me dealing with your feelings, facing them and feeling them, is the very step you need to take to move on.

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 04:07:37 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Susan, Katie, Jim
Subject: 'creating one's own reality'
Message:
Thanks Susan. It is scary--cancer-- but the family just has to go through the whole process of talking about it, freaking out, then getting their equilibrium and sense of control back. I really liked what you had to say about parents' grieving. I think there are some experiences in life that people can't get over no matter how hard they try. I think it's not enough to tell them to stop whining. I am seeing this very situation with my sister now. I think that it is not going to be a question of creating another experience or reality for herslef. I think it will be a much more complex process. It's a trauma and she will go through many stages in order to feel alive again.

I just cringe at this 'create your own reality' stuff. Not sure why I have such a visceral reaction to it. It just seems to be black and white and the older I get the more gray area there seems to be. I just don't think it's helpful to tell a grieving parent that they have to 'take responsibility for their pain.'I don't think it is a question of responsibility at that point. It is a question of pain, of helping people cope and deal with enormous pain.

I know how vulnerable the human nervous system and body can be. before I got the right treatment for this back pain I'm in, I was really starting to deteriorate, I mean my whole personality was changing. That happens to people--and I tell ya, i wasn't creating this back problem, it was the result of an injury. I'm just glad I figured out a way to get better. I don't think we can write people off as whiners just because they are in pain, or struggling with certain circumstances.

Katie I know what what you meant about Jonathan Daniels. He was trying to do something about the reality he saw, rather than whine about it. And Jim I do appreciate your dogging the dog about this 'create your own reality' shit.

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 22:23:46 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: The problem is people use this way of thinking
Message:
Helen,

You say, 'Sometimes shit just happens, to the most wonderful loving people. Sometimes people lose it mentally or physically for medical reasons, such as genetics, and end up homeless, or a wino.'

Agreed. Sometimes shit happens. And sometimes we create it with our actions and thoughts.

'Take this cancer my husband has. Is he creating this experience? Does he have the power to create spindled or non-spindled cancer cells in his eye and give himself cancer? Should he 'take responsibility' for creating this experience? I don't think so, Dog. How helpful is that kind of thinking?--not at all helpful.

I'm sorry your husband has cancer. Do whatever you can to get rid of it. IMO the idea that we create our reality is a useful belief. It's empowering. Those who take responsibility are in power, feel more in control, and it sure beats the blame game.

More helpful to me is the idea that stuff just happens sometimes that we all have to deal with in the best way we can, getting the best help we can get. If we're lucky and have access to that help. I think this 'create your own reality' is the pervue of the privileged.

What I'm suggesting is that owning your experience and taking responsibility for it is the best way to deal with it. Turning it over to a higher power and prayer are other ways.

-- Dogg

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 03:17:40 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: The problem is people use this way of thinking
Message:
IMO the idea that we create our reality is a useful belief. It's empowering. Those who take responsibility are in power, feel more in control, and it sure beats the blame game.

That's the heart and soul of it, isn't it? And you did call it a 'belief'. You just want to be in control, Dog. Nothing wrong with that. Sometimes you're not. I think for you premies, that reality is just a little tougher to take, especially when you believe that there's a place within always at your disposal to escape to. Is there really? I think if you believe that, you lose your ability at empathy, which in my opinon, is a tragic loss, and dehumanizes you.

If you believe that people 'create their own reality', how can you hold anyone who is suffering in anything but contempt? Afterall, they suffer because they choose to, right? Because of the reality they've created for themselves. Only a cold heart could accept such a philosphy, Dog. Where's room for a kind smile or a compassionate pat on the shoulder which just might be what a person really needs to ease their burden, if all you believe is that their 'whining' in the reality they've created for themselves? You premies just give yourselves away time and again where you're really at. You should hear yourselves sometimes.

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 04:14:22 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: The problem is people use this way of thinking
Message:
Jerry,

First off I don't claim to represent premies, just me. And I have never claimed to speak for anyone but myself, notice the IMO. And I happen to be a premie.

Second, have you ever heard of the term enabling? A woman who helps her drunk husband to bed every night and gets his breakfast for him every morning, because she is a good person. She is enabling this man to continue in his state of folly. She should let him go for a while and let him hit bottom. Maybe then he'd stop drinking.

If you believe that people 'create their own reality', how can you hold anyone who is suffering in anything but contempt? After all, they suffer because they choose to, right? Because of the reality they've created for themselves. Only a cold heart could accept such a philosphy, Dog.

Hey, I'm not keeping this a secret. I'm not keeping Knowledge or TM or the Forum a secret either.

Where's room for a kind smile or a compassionate pat on the shoulder which just might be what a person really needs to ease their burden, if all you believe is that their 'whining' in the reality they've created for themselves?

Okay I admit it, I hate people that whine all the time. I think they could be spending their time more wisely. And I am compassionate, I just don't believe in enabling.

I've been called a lot of things in my time, but never cold-hearted. Getting people to stand on their own two feet and to take responsibility for their lives is the best thing you can do for them.

-- Dogg

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 18:30:36 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: No, Dogg, you HAVE been called 'cold-hearted'
Message:
I've been called a lot of things in my time, but never cold-hearted. Getting people to stand on their own two feet and to take responsibility for their lives is the best thing you can do for them.

Here's where a little personal knowledge goes a long way. The fact is, Dogg, a lot of people thought of you as an extremely cold fish back when I knew you in the mid to late seventies. A lot. For what's worth, I always liked you and got a kick out of your very dry, deadpan sense of humour. But, like you say, I only speak for myself.

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 13:56:37 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: The problem is people use this way of thinking
Message:
I find it interesting that you focus on people stinking in their own shit. Yeah, I've known some moaners in my time, too, and you wish they would just snap out of it. But that's not automatically the case. People get struck by real tragedy that turns them inside out and their world upside down. Without a friend to stand by them in these situations, getting through those tragedies is going to be a lot tougher than it has to be. These people have not created their own realities. This includes alcoholics, btw.

Alcoholism is one of the most misunderstood diseases people suffer from. If you grew up in an alcoholic household, you should understand this. The alcoholic is in the grip of a self destructive attitude that he has no control over, and is problably going to destroy himself with it if he doesn't realize it and seek help. Yes, it's unfortunate that these people need to 'hit bottom' before they do, and 'enablers' just slow this process, but don't kid yourself that these unfortunates have 'created' their reality. They're as much in the grip of an unwanted disease as someone suffering from cancer. The insideousness of this disease is that they just don't realize it.

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 22:10:03 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Thanks Jerry (nt)
Message:
hgjfhdla.
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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 04:24:22 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: The problem is people use this way of thinking
Message:
Have you ever dealt in real life with any of these problems you talk about, Dog? Such as dealing with an alcoholic spouse? I have been the spouse of an alcoholic, whom I happen to adore, and it is NOT as simple as you make it out to be. The enabling model is really annoying and again, it is NOT helpful terminology when a family is struggling with alcoholism. I agree with Susan, I am glad you will never be my nurse, or my therapist, or my grief counselor down the road. You strike me as someone who hasn't dealt much with the 'messy' things of life, because your absolutist platitudes are so difficult to apply to a real, live version of the examples you so glibly give. Were you born with a silver spoon in your mouth or are you one of those super detached types? Super detached and super arrogant can smell the same, ya know?
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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 05:12:23 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: The problem is people use this way of thinking
Message:
Helen,

I had alcoholism in my family and spent two years in ACOA. If I was not posting here anonymously I would never have admitted that.

-- Dogg

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 22:40:07 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Fuck you, Dogg -- either you believe something or
Message:
you don't. Now do you or don't you believe that Helen's husband created his own reality?

Or is your stupid make-believe only good for defending your cult leader? Is it like 'real time' or something now? We won't play with stupid new age ideas when we're talking about the 'real' world? Someone could get hurt?

Fuck you.

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 23:17:24 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Poor Jimmy
Message:
Poor little Jimmy. That bad, bad guru has made him all angry.
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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 01:36:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Time to get lost again, Dog
Message:
Dog,

You start off dribbling your new age infantilism. Then when confronted with a real-life problem like Helen's you shuck and jive -- oh, I wasn't saying you create everything that happens ...... Then when confronted on that inconsistency your already inane comments deteriorate to this level where you simply avoid the subject at hand.

I guess part of 'creating your own reality' is never having to admit you're wrong, huh?

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 03:30:52 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You can't handle the truth!!!!!
Message:
Jim,

You are the source of your experience of what happens. I'm talking about the three pound universe we carry around with us. If you want to go around blaming others for what happens to you, go ahead.

All I'm suggesting is that when I 'let it be,' when I accept what happens, I unclutter my life, and my life improves, takes on a certain quality.

We are each the victim of our own decisions or thoughts. If you think other people are doing it to you, fine go ahead, I'll accept that. If you want to keep on blaming situations for what happens to you go ahead.

Part of 'creating your own reality' is admitting you're wrong. Mea culpa or more exactly accepting responsibility. To move on choose what you've got.

Choose what life offers and press yourself into brilliance!

-- Dogg

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 03:40:17 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Oh, I see ....... can't handle the truth, eh?
Message:
Let's talk about the truth of who I am and who you are. I'm Jim Heller of Victoria, British Columbia, Canada. What do I have to hide? Nothing I can think of. I'm proud enough of my views, life, etc. to not feel like I have to hide here for any reason.

But who are you? Afraid to post under your own name, let people know who you really are, what you do and why. You know, all that reality you've created for yourself? Why hide it? Instead you wear the mask of a kid's cartoon character. Why was that again? If you explained once I must have forgotten. Let's get real, Dog.

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 04:25:02 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh, I see ....... can't handle the truth, eh?
Message:
Jim,

I phoned you up and revealed myself. You didn't know who I was until I that point. You promised you wouldn't reveal who I am and I felt that you, as a lawyer, as someone used to keeping confidential information confidential, would keep your promise.

You promised Jim.

What I say on this site are my beliefs. They are not attacks against you. I think you are taking this far too personally. Hit Ctrl R and read my posts again. Maybe you will see that I have something useful to say.

-- Dogg

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 06:34:06 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Succintly put JW, this stuff infuriates me
Message:
And if your friends are new agers, just as with premies, they'll ditch you in a moment. the second you start experiencing any difficulties.

Frigtening as well as nauseating.

The one thing I'm totally ashamed of in my premie time is when the 'anti-nazi league' started in the punk era here. There was a period where the far right was showing signs of a semi-serious comeback here and it was squashed by direct confrontation. The anti-nazi league also got this understanding that this was not acceptable fully absorbed into youth culture here, and it's still standard thinking.

And what was I doing during all of this time, thinking 'they'll learn the true answer one day, that THAT love is the only truth that can do any real good. That negativity solves nothing.

No wonder the punks greatest insult was to spit out the word 'hippie' with complete disdain.

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 18:15:03 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Yeah, Me Too
Message:
I was politically active as a young person, mostly because my Dad was. I started going to rallies opposing the Vietnam War with my Dad when I was about 14. In high school I started an anti-Vietnam War group. Then I worked in the McGovern campaign in 1972. Then I got knowledge and became a cult-member, and I truthfully don't have much memory or what happened out in the civic world in the 70s. I had no involvement whatsoever. Maharaji openly disdained charity, or social or political activism of any sort.

I remember right after I left the Maharaji cult I went to an introductory program at which Maharaji spoke. This was in November, 1983, right during the big anti-nuclear weapons movement in the US and around the world. I remember a woman asked Maharaji a question about being involved in the anti-nuclear and peace movements. He was totally condescending and said it was a waste of time. Seeing him say crap like that, and seeing his dismissive attitude, confirmed that I had made the right decision to abandon Maharaji from my life.

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 18:58:22 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Yeah, Me Too
Message:
Can you imagine if everyone who has ever made changes in the world had that attitude that what they were doing was a 'waste of time'? Let's see--there would be no medical research, we would have lost WWII, and George W. Bush would get elected (oh Gos, that still may happen--help me). This type of fatalistic cynical garbage that Maharaji used to say makes my blood boil. God we were all one step away from being robots, sheesh!

Thanks for your good wishes above. My husband is in good hands, at the best eye oncology hospital in the world, and his prognosis is good. But I will tell ya the old 'C' can rock your world in a big way! I am so glad I am clear minded enough now to deal with this, when I was a 'child' (translation: a premie) there is no way I could have dealt with this.

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 23:22:17 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Yeah, Me Too
Message:
Hi Helen and all (and best wishes to you and Gary, Helen! We care for you and we will be in touch),

I think the slogan 'we create our own reality' has a limited personal applicableness - in other words, if you're treating everyone you know like shit, then you're likely to be treated like shit as well - or stuff like that. It does help people get out of the 'victim' frame of mind'. I think, however, that it is when people globalize that statement - apply it to others than themselves - that it falls down. I have seen many people use this as an excuse for complacency - in other words, if THEY are OK, then everyone else is just 'living out their karma' or whatever. I don't think this is true at ALL.

For example: Brian and I saw a PBS documentary about Jonathan Daniels last night. He was an Episcopal seminarian who was killed while trying to get black people to register to vote in the southern US in the sixties. This was an amazing documentary - Jonathan Daniels was a person who believed that all people should have the same civil rights that he did (he was a white male from New Hampshire), and who was willing to sacrifice his life for that cause. He knew he was going into a life-threatening situation, but he didn't stop - even though people advised him to - because he knew he was doing the right thing. He truly wanted to 'make his own reality' in the best sense of the word - a reality in which all people would be created equal - and he was willing to sacrifice his life for that. The man was an absolutely amazing person. He is on the Episcopal churches list of martyrs, and he certainly should be.

I also think that many people spout the phrase 'we create our own reality' when they haven't been faced with life or death (or otherwise grave) situations. Like Helen, I think we can LEARN from the bad things that happen to us in life, but I do not think that we 'create' them. For example, even if cancer were supposed to teach Helen's husband a 'lesson', is it really supposed to teach Helen and their young daughter a lesson as well? And did they 'choose' to be taught that 'lesson'? I don't think so - I think it's just something we all have to go through as human beings, and I think that trying to figure out how Helen's husband 'caused' the cancer in his life is futile - and can be mean-sprited and self-centered as well.

My feeling is that life just throws us a lot of curve balls, and that we did not 'create' them, but that we have to learn to live with them as best we can. To me, that is part of what being human is about. I do think that people who believe in the 'create your own reality' philosophy ought to consider that there are people (and other living things) who are truly victimized for various reasons and who may need their help - not just complacency that everything will just work out according to each person's 'karma'. If people really want to believe that 'we create our own reality', then perhaps they should think about helping OTHER people (or living things) create the reality that they want also.

Take care, all -
Katie

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 23:42:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: The problem's all in the language
Message:
He truly wanted to 'make his own reality' in the best sense of the word - a reality in which all people would be created equal - and he was willing to sacrifice his life for that.

Katie,

The guy sounds like a real hero. No issue at all about that. But what' with this 'make his own reality' shit? You say you mean it in the 'best sense of the word' but that's the whole problem. There is no sense to that phrase. Good or bad, it doesn't mean anything. Reality isn't something you get your own version of. That's called your 'perception of reality'. Everyone gets one of those. And it also isn't something you can 'make'. You don't make reality, it's just what is.

Sure, there's a certain poetic quality to working the words that way. Obviously it had some appeal or all those new agers wouldn't have started saying it. But look at all the confusion and really bad thinking it leads to.

By the way, do you have any idea how one might define 'own' as in 'owning one's experience'? Beside some very, very nebulous half-thoughts that don't really amount to anything more than sparks off the campfire, I don't think that phrase means anything.

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 01:00:49 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: OK, I shouldn't have used that phrase
Message:
Basically, what I was trying to say is that Jonathan Daniels did what was right. He didn't believe that black people 'created their own reality', and thus that it was OK that they did not have the right to vote, and other civil rights. He worked hard to CHANGE this - thus my use of the word 'creating' - because he did try to help 'create' a new reality - in which all people were created equal. However, I accept that the phrase 'creating reality' has been debased by overuse.

By the way, Jonathan Daniels's feelings about this were all based on spiritual concepts - he had a very strong Christian faith - but I think that even secular humanists such as myself would have, and do, feel the same way.

In re your second question: I have heard the phrase 'owning one's own experience' a lot, and can't really say what it means. To the extent that it means not being in denial about what has happened to you, or what you have done in your life, I think it's a valid concept. In these cases I would use the word 'own' as in 'owning up to'. Otherwise, I don't know what the hell it means :).

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 05:10:57 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: OK, then let's change the terminology sometime
Message:
I have really appreciated your contributions, Katie. I just can't formulate a decent respsonse to them yet. I will get back to you when the time is right.

Something is going on , and I don't know what it is; do you know, what it is, Ms. K./Katie?

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Date: Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 19:19:40 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: OK, then let's change the terminology sometime
Message:
Hi Stonor -
Yes, I definitely agree that we should change the terminology! I have heard the term 'creating your own reality' used and MIS-used so much to excuse things like people having horrible things happen to them, and to excuse social complacency and apathy. It's no wonder that it drives people here crazy.

I've liked your posts a lot too - particularly the ones about the male/female internet dynamics. I'm not on this forum all the often, although I used to be - last week was just a relatively slow week at work, so I had time to post. But Brian (my partner and ex-premie.org webmaster, although NOT the forum administrator) usually looks at the forum in the AM before he goes to work, so if you post to me and put my name in the title, he'll probably alert me.

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 20:56:55 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: OK, then let's change the terminology sometime
Message:
Thanks Katie,

I'll do that. Or perhaps I could e-mail you at Motherwave?

I was really getting bummed out by the combative energy that may perhaps be necessary in some contexts, but could also be coming from personal issues. Terminology - talk about a growing Tower of Babel - but at the same time it can be so useful.

Stonor

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Date: Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 23:29:49 (GMT)
From: Katie/Ms. K.
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: Stonor
Subject: Oops, I am not that Katie!
Message:
Hi Stonor -
There are two Katies who post here - one is Katie Darling (who is a therapist, of Motherwave fame), and one is me (the OTHER Katie - Katie Haering). This has caused some confusion in the past, which is why I started posting as Ms. K (unfortunately, that caused even more confusion), and Katie Darling started posting as KM Darling. I don't think Katie Darling has posted as 'Katie' for a long time - maybe about a year?

Take care -
Katie H.

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Date: Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 00:42:23 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: stonor770@netscape.net
To: Katie/Ms. K.
Subject: Oops, I am not that Katie!
Message:
Hi Katie,

Wow, that's a llllooooooooonnnngggg thread! No problem over the confusion. Same difference to me. I'll be in touch - got a cruncher of a four-day work week about to kick in (if you haven't read that elsewhere).

Stonor

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 04:42:41 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: OK, I shouldn't have used that phrase
Message:
Katie,

You say, 'I have heard the phrase 'owning one's own experience' a lot, and can't really say what it means. To the extent that it means not being in denial about what has happened to you, or what you have done in your life, I think it's a valid concept. In these cases I would use the word 'own' as in 'owning up to'. Otherwise, I don't know what the hell it means :).'

Perhaps these definitions can help. Owning one's experience means:
- accepting what is
- choosing what you've got
- saying yes to what happens
- taking what you get
- experiencing your experience
- registering thoughts and states in the present
- letting your mind wander and noting how it works
- listening to what you are saying to yourself
- closely observing the mind
- letting go of the resistance
- recognizing thought as thought
- being authentic about your inauthenticity
- letting it be.

Insight meditation, the Forum, and other types of Buddhist practise teach how to turn your life around 180 degrees. Buddhism has been around 2600 years. This stuff works.

-- Dogg

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 09:45:47 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Why go Buddhist,when you have gm and knowledge? nt
Message:
a
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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 02:25:56 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The Infuriating Smugness of New Age Responsbility
Message:
yes, I totally agree. It really is ugly.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 23:21:49 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The 'distancing' of the premies.
Message:
I've noticed the trend amongst the premies lately. They seem to be able to create a certain amount of distance ('I don't go to too many programs these days' or 'I can't afford his $5000 seminar, I've got to take care of myself')but they, in the next breath, will say 'But I still love him!'.

This is great! The premies are silently,relentlessly, and unconsciously sending m a message: 'You're knowledge doesn't really work, it's been nice, I've got to get on with my life, I'll mention you're name if the conditions are perfect,and here's some money, although it's not as much as I used to give you.'

Listen up m. Your next money making scheme will have to be selling stock in some divine venture. Think about it, the premie demographics are ripe for it!

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 04:53:15 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: They distance themselves from life's shit.
Message:
What frightens me is that this new breed of 'sorta premies' distance themselves but are still saying value-free statements like 'I experienced alot of love back then, and I have no regrets but it's just not for me anymore,' rather than taking a stand. To take a stand, to say 'this trip is narcissistic and a total waste of a human being's time' or 'I was really screwed up and had no values or ethics when I was into Maharaji', demands that one be place a negative value on something. The programming is so heavy that one must never be negative, after all that's Mr. Mind, doncha know! The distancing is about distancing oneself from anything negative. It is so difficult to break away from the new age vision of life's perfection, But let's face it, life is full of negative shit that we all have to deal with.

Christian radio stations and TV shows that go on and on about how perfect everything is 'now that I have found Jesus' are just more of this same b.s. I tell ya, I am sick of it. The best thing about this forum and the people I have met here is our ability to acknowledge that life isn't all bliss but we can still find a way to give life meaning without sucking at the breast of bliss all the time.

This week my husband is in a cancer hospital getting radiation treatment 130 miles away from me and I will tell you right now it is not comforting to hear about how everything is perfect and wonderful--because it's not, folks!! But what is wonderful for me and for my husband is the tenderness and love extended from friends and even strangers, that's where the 'grace' is. The 'grace' is also in my husband and my seeing the silver lining in this ordeal in that we are appreciating one another anew and realizing how much we have taken one another for granted. It is a wake up call, andthe experience can be used to grow, but is the cancer 'Guru Maharaji's grace'? If someone said that to me right now, or anything along those lines, I'd smack their supercilious little smug mug!!

All of that said, I know that I was a 'sorta premie' myself when I found this ex-premie website. Yes, I had figured out how narcissistic it was but could not take a stand until I got more info. We have to remember that premies live in an information vacuum, and there's alot of deprogramming and critical thinking that has to take place to get to the bottom of it all

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 18:31:58 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Thanks, Helen
Message:
Very well said. I hope things go well for you and your husband.
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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 08:01:03 (GMT)
From: Remy
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Waves of suckitude
Message:
A friend of mine and I seek never an utter lack of suckitude, but a low level of suckitude. We feel its more realistic.

I don't think I really understand why premies are so often narcissistic. Where does that come from? All about 'me' and not about others in meditation? How is that possible...isn't it supposed to be about breaking out of one's self and just being a part of things? Was there ever really a community and group sense of well-being? Could the experience of bliss be shared? Was there an energy in group meetings or was it all false drama?

Is it possible for a premie to take in knowledge, and genuinely benefit from it, but disdain all the structure/hierarchy surrounding it?

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 23:03:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Remy
Subject: If you believe in 'Knowledge' you've got a problem
Message:
Is it possible for a premie to take in knowledge, and genuinely benefit from it, but disdain all the structure/hierarchy surrounding it?

Remy,

Once you're free to look past the pat, cult non-answers you come up to the question, what's Knowledge? The fact is, it's an illusion. There is no knowledge. There are four common meditation techniques Maharaji's dad cobbled together into his own little package. They're primitive techniques to try to find the universe inside where the ancient hindus thought they'd find it. That part's all bullshit. There is no inner universe, blah, blah, blah.

Now the techniques themselves do cut you off from the hubbub of the world. That's what they are, after all. Just using your hands to block your senses and trying to follow your breath instead of thinking. Those efforts can be peaceful. Why not? But they're not 'Knowledge of the Soul' which is, don't forget, the full name for this fake magic formula.

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 09:19:20 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And Remy.......
Message:
please remember that Jim's perspective is the definitive one that everyone should accept. Then the world would be a wonderful place and Jim could relax and not have to tell all us other idiots where life is really at.

Of course I have never felt the bliss of connecting to my higher self. The tears of joy I wept when I found there was an experience inside me that I'd always longed for.....well it was all a delusion........ Jim told me so.......

Shame the philosophers and mystics or even Jesus didn't know Jim. He could have set them all straight.

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 18:45:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: And Hal ......
Message:
Have you ever considered your experience of 'bliss' in the context of other religious highs?

I used to get occasionally 'blasted' myself. We all did, at least everyone who stuck in there long enough. That's the impression I got anyway. But I now realize that people can create a bit of 'rapture' for themselves on demand if they pray hard enough, meditate with that objective, chant, stuff like that. What I understand of life and how it evolved and all that makes it very unlikely, in my view, that those feelings are anything but brain phenomenon. As nice as they are, they're not experiences of some divine consciousness that, unlike our regular consciousness, doesn't happen to need a brain.

So have you put your mind to this at all since you wrestled it back from the guru? Put another way, is there any part of Maharaji's 'teaching's that you don't intend to re-examine very closely? Particularly the way he's taught you to think of the meditation and what actual experience it delivers?

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 22:52:45 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And Hal ......
Message:
Jim I really don't care if it is brain chemistry. I enjoy whatever it is and during my 28 yrs with k I spent 8 yrs away from that particular belief system. I fully rejected M during that time yet still had many wonderful experiences.

Sometimes it remembers me and I like it, that's all. I now view M as a fraudulant teacher yet I still enjoy finding a natural ' high '.
I don't meditate if I don't want to. I enjoy my life with all it's difficulties as it is. I don't want to escape from reality as you earlier implied. To me feeling good is preferable to feeling miserable and there are certain ways that work for me , not necessarily anything spiritual but often psychological. For example I do have the choice to wallow in blame and discontentment or be positive and accepting of life as it is. This is not connected to gurus or meditation necessarily and in no way exclusive to anyone.

Jim I think on some points we can only agree to disagree. I'm as open as I can be to reassessing my viewpoints and they do change sometimes. Thanks for giving me another perspective which I do look at by the way.

Hal

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Date: Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 04:48:59 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: And Hal ......
Message:
To me feeling good is preferable to feeling miserable and there are certain ways that work for me , not necessarily anything spiritual but often psychological. For example I do have the choice to wallow in blame and discontentment or be positive and accepting of life as it is. This is not connected to gurus or meditation necessarily and in no way exclusive to anyone.

You have a third choice as well, Hal. You can do something about a situation which is the cause of your discontentment.

You don't have to 'wallow' in it, but neither do you have to be 'accepting of life as it is.' You can attempt to bring about change in the situation, when and where that's possible.

In this regard, I find myself sometimes recalling the 'Serenity Prayer' of the twelve step programs.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things that I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 14:42:55 (GMT)
From: Remy/Daneane
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Okay Hal...
Message:
Thanks and yeah, I kinda figured. Must use my own filters with this internet stuff.
It's an interesting discussion though...all the different ways to look at something...logically, mystically, romantically, practically...or the old time favorite, blindly. It's interesting how some people get affected by one off hand comment that just rolls off the the back of another. How a deadline can grow ulcers for some and make another strive. How one situation when rested and fed looks totally different when tired and without coffee.
There are so many variables in each situation, it can be so hard to understand and sometimes so daunting. Makes me see why some people may want to ride through it clutching the ten commandments or some other form of structure.
I've always thought meditation was about giving things a little perspective...trying to sort of take a birds-eye view and get out of your little world; get out of your little you. Like that line in Star Trek describing humans as 'ugly bags of mostly water'.
Yeah, yeah, yeah....in short, no answers here.
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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 16:00:43 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Remy/Daneane
Subject: bye Remy.
Message:
Remy,

There are so many ways of looking at things as you say. Sometimes I watch soccer on tv and when a foul happens it can look one way then the view is taken up by another camera and it looks different. It's healthy not to get fixed and rigid in one way of looking. That's why I enjoy reading this forum. It's important for me to try and adapt my viewpoint. Yet I have a problem you could say. I want to know myself beyond reason and logic and mind. I see myself observing the thoughts and emotions which pass across my inner sky and I want to know who it is watching them. Who am I sitting inside myself making choices and decisions ? I'm not my thoughts otherwise I would be in really big trouble! I'm not my emotions or likewise I'd be in prison.

Contrary to what some say I have connected with something totally fulfilling inside me. I can't prove that or describe it well. Poetry is a good example. If you analyse it too much it loses a magic. How can you be logical about the effect that art , literature , music or poetry have on the soul? How could I explain it to someone like Jimbo? It's the same for me with the deeper experiences I've had. No way can I prove or explain
them.

I say bye Remy because I'm not feeling like posting here any longer.Here's some Rumi to end with:

There is a way between voice and presence,
where information flows.

In disciplined silence it opens,
With wandering talk it closes.

Bright future to you. (starting now ) Hal

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 23:18:14 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Hal, looks like you answered yourself
Message:
'There is a way between voice and presence,
where information flows.'

Sounds to me like you already are telling yourself the answer.

Why is it either heart or logic.

If you join, give heart and logic in equal shares, ie democratic, non-hierarchichal communication, you create a more unified force, your perception of self, itself including all the parts communicating in a network, fundamentally changes. No surprize that the route to intelligent machines is going back to the network. The variety that is introduced this way is stunning. Self-referential systems operate on a different order of things, radical shift.

Sound systems thinking, get the buzz & stay real.
Very taoist, like it.

Remember gm's dodgy maths, 1+1=11, only thing of his that I really liked. In fact much subtler than he'll ever realize.

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 23:28:12 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Yeah, Nice post Ham (nt)
Message:
gh
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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 17:31:35 (GMT)
From: Remy
Email: Daneaneg@earthlink.net
To: Hal
Subject: If you must go...
Message:
jot my email address down...I enjoyed reading your postings...I've been called an asshole a few times here already...but I've also been treated to some wonderful dialoge.
I'd like to hear more from you...if not, that's cool too. Take care, I'm sorry you were uncomfortable here.
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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 22:27:43 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Hal
Message:
I don't even know you, don't know if you are premie, atheist, or what, but I hope you won't take what happens here to heart. Especially don't take Jim to heart. You acknowledged yourself that he was able to sustain an intellectual argument longer than yourself, that doesn't make you inferior, brother. I long ago acknowledged that I didn't have the same brain Jim has, so what?
Jim and I have gone round and round on many matters, including the existence of God.

But I do think that if you are going to make an outrageous claim that while on LSD, you 'intuited' that you were creating your reality, you should be able to back it up somehow. I mean such a claim is outrageous and I think Jim is trying to force you to examine it critically. It just doesn't hold up under objective analysis. It is just as outrageous to say that a fat 14 year old is The Lord of the Universe. How can that be? And as we all discovered, it ain't so.

So I know it makes you squirm to be held under the scalpel and I too have been very hurt by things that have gone on here on the forum, so much so that I have not posted for months at a time. But seriously Hal, the world view that you literally are creating all the universe around you with your own brain is somewhat psychotic, brother. If you had glimmers of this in an altered state it is because you were in an altered state! Next thing you know you're gonna be thinkin' that martians are trying to steal your thoughts!

You still seem like a real nice guy, so I hope I didn't hurt your feelings.

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 23:07:38 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen
Message:
Thanks Helen.

No you didn't hurt my feelings. I understand what you say and I see the validity of it. Maybe it's better not to try and describe personal cosmic experiences on the forum as I am rather innept at it. I stick my neck out then get surprised when it gets chopped.

My views on these philosophical concepts does tend to change according to what I'm experiencing in my life at any particular time. I remember poo poing many ' new age' concepts at times and still do quite often.

I sincerely hope things work out well for you in this trying time you are having.


Best wishes Hal ( very recent ex premie )

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Date: Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 04:47:46 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: thanks Hal
Message:
Truth be told, I am the same way. From day to day I can go back and forth regarding certain new-agey type things. I think this whole discussion of 'creating one's reality' hit me at a bad time. ANyway I am glad I didn't hurt your feelings. I know how intense the forum can be.

SOmetimes I do have the feeling or intuition that the universe supports me, or is trying to show me something, like when certain things keep happening over and over, like certain people I run into all the time, or opportunities that come at the right time. That could sound psychotic to some, so I am a fine one to talk. I guess the only difference between what Dog is saying and this idea of being open to the universe is that I don't think I am making it happen, or creating it. I think it is just bershert (or God's grace) or just a good day. Or maybe I am attracting good to me on a good day, by just having a smile on my face. Anyway, I can't figure it all out or I'll get a headache!!

I do know that I want my humanity more than anything and I am not willing to trade it in for 'transcendence'. Thanks for your kind words regarding the situation me hubby is in. I think it will turn out ok. You know as we get older we all have to face these health challenges and deal with our mortality. It's frightening, but what can we do? We just have to deal with it and get love and support from one another.And hey, I am all for prayer as well, people have been praying for my husband and it is comforting even if noone is 'listening' to those prayers I think they help.
Helen

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 23:43:38 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Hal, I too had similar experiences on acid you did
Message:
There were a group of us, we used to take acid religiously once a month. We described that unifying shift in awareness and connectiveness which produced definite bliss states as 'knowing'.

And that level of experience is never forgotten. If you look at what happens to perception on acid you know there is at the same time greater magnification of everything, and greater interlinking. Increasing feedback like that can slip you to he next meta level. In systems theory, not just systems theory either, see Godel. it's only possible to define a system from the next higher level of awareness. So I suspect all 'cosmic' experiences are just you joining the parts of yourself together, ie viewing them from the next level up. You are indeed seeing yourself for the first time, everything is indeed experienced inside, all the standard phrases. Remember that Sceptic reportter who had the magnet over his head having 'spiritual' experiences. He said he felt a presence rush past him and he felt it was himself. At the point maybe where his awareness of the parts was slipping into an awareness of the whole. Back to Robyns experience that an experience of god is actually an experience of our whole self in our body, and the devil is just the shadow dark side of ourself. My very crude theory for what it's worth.

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Date: Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 01:05:20 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Hal, I too had similar experiences on acid you did
Message:
Hamzen,

You sound like a cosmic dude. I like much of what you post. I'm getting a little tired of debating issues at present so I'm trying to take a break from the forum for a while. It does get to be rather a habit for me to keep on reading everything here.

My wife has been an ex for many years and can't understand my fascination with this forum. I think I should pay more attention to communicating with her otherwise I could end up a single father!

I'll let you know if there are any nice outdoor parties in the summer. I have your e mail.

Enjoy yourself . Cheers Hal

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Date: Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 03:15:14 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Nice one Hal, I definitely find the odd break does
Message:
wonders.

Yeah, couple of people already might be up for the summer, depending on dates etc.

Have a good one matee.

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Date: Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 04:51:58 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Hal
Message:
alot of people here have gone through the addiction to the forum-- it tapers off on its own after awhile. That happened to me and several others here. So don't worry you won't be in a 12 step program over this place--take care
Helen
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Date: Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 08:22:35 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen
Message:
Big hugs for you and your fella, nuff said yeah.
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Date: Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 16:57:05 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: hammie
Message:
Thanks hammie, my 'fella' will crack up when I tell him what ya wrote.
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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 22:46:06 (GMT)
From: VSOP
Email: None
To: Remy
Subject: Waves of suckitude
Message:
Hi there,

I couldn't help but respond to this heading.

Quick responses to your Qs based on my own life.

'All about 'me' and not about others in meditation? How is that possible...isn't it supposed to be about breaking out of one's self and just being a part of things?'

No, it's about breaking in to one's self...you're already 'a part of things.' That self, by the way, is not the self in the 'selfish' sense you're thinking. The self you refer to is lovely to break out of into a bigger picture. The self M's talking about is the seat of pure love and not a bad place to get acquainted with.

'Was there ever really a community and group sense of well-being?'

Yes, most definitely.

'Could the experience of bliss be shared?'

Yes, it could be shared if one were having it themself.

'Was there an energy in group meetings or was it all false drama?'

There was lots of great energy on many occasions. There was also some 'false drama' as there is in just about any endeavor...and politics, power trips and all that other good stuff which should be avoided like the plague anywhere in life, not just in this environment.

'Is it possible for a premie to take in knowledge, and genuinely benefit from it, but disdain all the structure/hierarchy surrounding it?'

Yes indeed and many have done so. Not always easy, to be sure, but well worth dodging any bits of random, flying suckitude.

Cheers. VSOP

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 15:58:49 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Remy
Subject: Waves of suckitude
Message:
Loved your 'sucktitude' phrase. A friend and I share a similar phrase 'don't blow sunshine up my butt' (used when people only see the rosey side of life and never the other stuff0. Regarding your questions: The problem is that the focus of the premie trip is all about Maharaji and not about using the 'love' to reach out and relate to others. Priority is placed on 'Relating' it one's inner experience which is attributed to Maharaji. So the 'dance' between devotee and 'Master' is really a preoccupation with one's experience which becomes very narcissistic.

So there's no longer some kind of objective empathy for others, but a nuerotic, addictive grasping at a blissful experience. While other spiritual paths may emphasize empathy and compassion, using the intellect to help others, in M's trip the mind is seen as only negative. And the only way to turn off that mind is to immerse oneself in meditation and surrender which makes the devotee almost autistic when it comes to relating with other people. Now of course I am oversimplifying and referring to the time when I was a premie. I think the premies who distance themselves from hyper-devotion to M and have some kind of psychological understanding of themselves and others, do alot better at relationships than the ones who are 'super-premies' (the scary super detached autistic types).

The trip is ALL about CHASING the experience of 'breaking out of oneself and being a part of things,' so that the devotee lives for that experience only. Everything in between on the spectrum of life experience, including the basic 'sucktitude' aspects of the human condition, are de-emphasized. I hope this helps--you are Daneane , right, who never 'received knowledge'? --good for you for seeing the light. Better to stay real and whole then seek only one type of experience.
Helen

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 17:28:23 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Concepts about feelings
Message:
I've been thinking about the moralistic judgements that people have about feelings. For example, that experiences that feel good are 'good', and experiences that feel bad are 'bad'. That 'good' feelings are closer to 'God', 'bad' feelings are closer to 'darkness'. Even the word 'darkness' shows this prejudice; we fear the dark, fear is unpleasant, so the dark is 'bad'.

Not enough thought is given to the 'appropriateness' of feelings. Unpleasant feelings can be quite appropriate. For example, fear in some situations can save lives, it's a built-in emotion that can prompt life-saving action. It's only when these 'bad' or 'good' emotions get out of control, when they dominate, when they become inappropriate, that they become 'bad'.

I think to some degree, the desire to feel good can be akin to wanting physical pleasure. Some 'good' feelings are spiritualized, made to seem 'better' than other good feelings. The desire to feel good can indeed become selfish. Helping others, caring about others can sometimes be messy and unpleasant. The 'just feel good' philosophy is shallow. I also think it backfires, because shit happens. False detachment, the outright denial or suppression of feelings, just doesn't work. I like your wording 'scary super-detached autistic types'.

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 18:27:15 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Concepts about feelings/speculation about Joan
Message:
God, that is so right on, G. I have been through many emotions since the diagnosis of this eye cancer my husband has. And I am constantly telling myself that expressing these emotions is totally normal and healthy, as you said 'appropriate.' It's natural and normal to feel fear when a loved one has something life-threatening. Allowing myself to have these feelings actually helped me move through the initial freakout stage more quickly so that I am able to be a better advocate for my husband's care. And as we all know, the kind of floaty 'Maharaji will take care of everything' attitude is not what is needed when finding out all the info about the type of cancer cells, prognosis, and treatment options, and follow-up. I used to be so fatalistic about health stuff when I was a premie, not anymore!Who wants to die early if they can do everything they can to avoid it?

The darkness and light classifications that are made in terms of human emotion are so bogus, you are right. I think that hyper-spiirtual types sometimes are afraid of being labelled as negative if they express these 'negative' (ie, fearful, agitated, angry) emotions. It is part of their self-image to be seen as constantly serene. If you give into your freakout you are acting, HORRORS--human.

I think this may be the case with Joan Aptor, but of course I am only specultaing. Her whole identity was so wrapped up in M that she doesn't want to read all the poop on him because she is afraid it will shatter her. I can't imagine how Joan Apter, a PAM for years, wouldn't be curious about checking out this website, and reading. I mean, does that make sense? Think how curious we all were when we stumbled upon it. I was fascinated and devoured it like a hungry wolf. I have to think that she is adverse to finding out anything that may cause some kind of dissonance to the perfection of her world, and to her perfect image of herself.

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 01:44:46 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Concepts about feelings/speculation about Joan
Message:
I'm sure she 'forgot more than we know', if you're familiar with that expression. I don't see how she couldn't. She's been around him since the 60's.


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Date: Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 17:30:30 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Joan Apter pissed-off at Prem Rawat (aka Maharaji)
Message:
On one of the few occasions to be behind the scenes, I saw/heard an exchange between Joan and Prem in the mid 80s. I wish I remember what she said, but she was obviously pissed-off. I don't remember him saying anything, he pretty much didn't respond, he looked at her with a smug smile, but pretty much ignored her. I was ga-ga over Guru, so I wasn't really paying full attention, I thought 'What's wrong with her?' In retrospect, she seemed to be expressing a feeling of hurt over being betrayed. What she said was critical of him, I think about something he did or maybe more general, like maybe hinting that he's a fraud. It was so confronting that I surpressed it.
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Date: Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 17:38:01 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Joan Apter pissed-off at Prem Rawat (aka Maharaji)
Message:
Really? Wow.

Having never been among the inner circle I cannot even fathom that.

When I have spoken with those who were in the know or part of the innner sanctum of PAMs it really was a different world with different rules than the rest of us lived in. I am fascinated by that. It was like a sub cult of the cult or something. I have heard other stories of PAMS being disrespectful to the Speaker and getting away with it. Usually in the context of refusing to comply with unreasonable things he was demanding of them.

I think he NEEDS those people. There has been a theme in that when PAMS leave it seems he begs them not to and tries to seduce them back.

I am too far away from it all, and really always was, to analyze it. But I would love to here what anyone knowledgable ( ha ha ) has to say on the subject.

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Date: Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 19:22:03 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Joan Apter pissed-off at Prem Rawat (aka Maharaji)
Message:
If you remember the Ramayama stories, devotional love couldn't be completely separated from anybody on any side. I'm not up on the cast of characters from the Ramayama as much as I used to be, but you could explain the story with God on everyone's side including the enemy's. And certainly, Hanuman had special priviledges which could even 'humanize' 'the Lord'.

She had some kind of devotional priviledge based on what you say, he needed her.

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 18:51:31 (GMT)
From: Remy/Daneane
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Blowing
Message:
Happy in my ignorance, yes.

I remember a satellite presentation once where M went off on whining about somebody you don't like. Like even relating that to someone on or thinking of it was a waste.

I disagreed totally.

I am all for venting. I think it is good to vent. So I am a damn whiner, it gets it out of my system. What good can bottling it up or denying it do? Isn't that the stuff severe hysteria is made of?

Thanks for the description of the M/autistic paradigm. Thanks for the relating of your personal experiences.

I've got to admit, though I stopped before 'losing my mind', I still have personal interest/concern in that I've friends deeply involved in M. I guess I want to try to understand them.

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 19:16:19 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Remy/Daneane
Subject: Blowing
Message:
Maharaji going off about how we shouldn't whine sounds like more of the same fatalistic crap. He doesn't say not to gossip because that can hurt others (that would be a more sophisticated analysis), no he just says it's a waste of time, meaning, that none of us should care so much about someone else, we should be focussing on 'that experience.'

It's such a black and white trip. It's so incredibly undeveloped, and incomplete. I think it is a vacuous religion, really. There is nothing to it. It is scary.

I agree venting can be good, and people need to talk sometimes before they can get to the next stage.

I just read a book about an autistic woman, called 'Nobody Nowhere' that just blew me away. Such an amazing book--an autobiography, it helped me understand autism so much more through her explanation. As a child she would be in actual physical pain if touched by another person. To escape the pain of personal interaction, she would lose herself in sorting things, or in sensations like swinging from a tree branch or looking at dots of light. She couldn't help herslef, this is her brain's way of relating and she sure has gone a long way in accepting herslef.

The premie culture did involve a certain obsession with sensations, and inner experiences that I think can be really dangerous and a form of autism (not true autism). Dangerous in the sense of losing touch with objective reality. I can remember premies getting yelled at and standing there passively, escaping into their own inner world. Probably they were saying to themselves 'this isn't really happening' or 'that person is in their mind' or just tuning it out and ficussing on holy name. And lots of people had relationships with premies that frustrated the hell out of them because their mate wouldn't deal with them on the feeling level,because 'feelings aren't real'. Only Maharaji's world was real! See how psychotic and schizoid this trip was and maybe still is?

It is good that you are concerned for your premie friends. In understanding them and their fears/programming/traumas you may be able to help them. It's very deep, this attributing to Maharaji everything in life. It is a negation of the self and it is very destructive.

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 17:34:27 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: G
Subject: well said G! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 18:56:57 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Also, the avoidance of unpleasantness and get you
Message:
in deep shit. For example, wanting to avoid conflict. Con artists and high-pressure salesmen (salespeople to be PC) use this against people. They want to force a conflict or an impending conflict to get people to comply, rather than face the conflict. A couple of ways to deal with this are 1) stop viewing conflict as bad and face it head on, and hopefully don't interpret it as unpleasant or 2) walk away or hang up.

With cold-calling, I realised that I have absolutely no obligation to talk to a stranger that calls me uninvited. If they want to be rude, fuck em. And when I truly understand this, I don't even have to feel that way, but just hang up. Sometimes these people are still talking as I hang up the phone. I don't worry about. To do that kind of work, they need to be thicked skinned. I used feel quite different, never wanting to upset people or confront people, or distrust them, but just let people walk all over me.

Another tactic used in cold-calling is to ask you a question, like the insincere 'How ya doing, G?' or 'Is this G?' As soon as you answer, you're already complying. That's just what they want. Who the hell are they to call me, a total stranger, and ask me a question without even identifying themselves. So now I just don't answer, instead I ask 'Who is this?' or just hang up.

These are just specific examples, but the principle applies in general. People can be real scumbags and it's good to recognise this, even though it's unpleasant. That's one reason for gullibility, wanting to avoid this unpleasantness, the desire for a heaven on earth, wanting to see people as good whether they are or not.

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 19:25:06 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: G
Subject: ex-premie assertiveness training
Message:
That is another good point, G, that people can be scumbags or out to exploit you in some ways. Having the smarts to recognize this is important in protecting oneself. Also important is to recognize in oneself one's own tendencies to be manipulative through being 'spiritually perfect.' I am still learning that being sweet and kind all the time was a 'learned behavior' and isn't really how I am feeling half the time. The passivity of the premie trip goes deep.

I also don't feel guilty about getting telemarketers off the phone. I figure my time in the privacy of my home is my own, so I can choose whether to invite them into my home via a conversation. I wonder how many of us ex-es could use a good assertiveness training course. Saying 'yes' when we really mean 'no', is a hard concept to outgrow. Hey, we kissed some guru's toes, when our 'minds' were chanting 'this is weird, this is weird!'

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 20:42:09 (GMT)
From: Remy
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Old wall-eyed
Message:
I remember from a course on Sartre his ramblings about the power of the other. He gave an example of a bum. The bum sitting there, disconnected from you, but asks for dough. You don't know this guy, you could walk by....by just by his sitting there, in that state, with his hand out; he affects a certain power over you.
Manipulation is such a bitch.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 22:29:32 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What are her thoughts when Mr. Young flies?
Message:
Does her mind assoult her with thoughts for the plane to crash and get it over with her new guru?

Of course it was not Joan who had those thoughts, it was a completely seperate entity, that demon mind, whispering those nasty things.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 21:27:19 (GMT)
From: bloodboils
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: My interview with Joan Apter....Thanks
Message:
Thank you for your fair and balanced reporting.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 18:56:10 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: stonor
Subject: Hey, Stonor:
Message:
Hey, Stonor

I don't really want to hijack the ex-premie.org Forum for this, but I don't yet have an email address for you.

So:

Eclectic reader that you are, what do you make of the parallels between Hercules and Horus/Christ here:

http://www.netnews.org/bk/hercules/toc.html?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 19:41:13 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: stonor770@netscape.net
To: cq
Subject: Hey, Stonor:
Message:
Would need more time to check into it but, briefly, I would expect that there are parallels as they are both 'hero' myths. What do you make of the parallels? Have you read much Bailey/DK?

I thought I had the book on symbolism that you mentioned, but it's a different one.

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you sooner.

Stonor

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 00:05:11 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: This page is on a Sai Baba web site (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 02:22:35 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: I'm vaguely curious . . .
Message:
G,

Where are you coming from with this remark?

'This page is on a Sai Baba web site (nt)'

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 03:39:17 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: I'm vaguely curious . . .
Message:
Well, ok, maybe I'm overly prejudiced. I've recently read a lot of bad things about Sai Baba. It was a knee jerk reaction.
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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 04:59:37 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Who's talking about Sai Baba?!!! (nt)
Message:
Who's talking about Sai Baba?!!! (nt)
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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 05:57:00 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: I see what you're talking about
Message:
http://www.netnews.org has quite an interesting mix on that page! Have you read any Bailey/DK, G? I'm always happy to see links from more exclusive paths to more integrated. And I'm also happy to see the Bailey/DK books on line!

Stonor

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 06:11:36 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: G: this might interest you:
Message:
Another look at evolution and other frequently discussed forum topics from The Consciousness of the Atom
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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 12:57:19 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: interesting
Message:
I haven't read Bailey/DK before, actually I haven't read much philosophy. I've started to read the page with the Bailey lecture, it's interesting. Thanks.
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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 15:05:39 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: interesting
Message:
You've mentioned that before, but I find it hard to believe reading some of your posts. I don't think you've ever said much about yourself - how about a little?

I never think of some of what I read as 'philosophy'exactly/ neccessarily. I have difficulty with some books and the categories they're put into. I've discussed it with a few secondhand bookshop people. Some books span a few categories.

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 16:29:37 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: philosophy, about myself
Message:
When I say I haven't read a lot of philosophy, I mean lots of Kant, Hume, Sartre (I tried), etc., the stuff you read in philosophy classes. In a broader sense, I've read more than most people.

One reason I haven't said much about myself is the desire to remain anonymous. I feel weird about the premies in my area finding out that I'm active here. In retrospect, a couple of them seemed to be suspicious of me, even before I got active here. I was wondering, what's with them? It makes more sense now. I guess I'm reluctant to 'come out', although it might be good to do so. It's not something to be ashamed of, but I'm still semi-brainwashed. Also, I may want to do a little spying.

I have emailed and talked to a few people here. I could send you an email telling about myself if you would like. Also, maybe I could set up an anonymous email account.

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 20:41:08 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: stonor770@netscape.net
To: G
Subject: philosophy, about myself
Message:
G wrote:

I have emailed and talked to a few people here. Maybe I could set up an anonymous email account.

I'll temporarily save you some trouble, although I'm still not used to netscape myself.

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Date: Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 20:24:05 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Stoner, I tried your email address, it didn't work
Message:
I tried stoner770@netscape.net
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Date: Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 21:01:39 (GMT)
From: stonor
Email: stonor770@netscape.net
To: G
Subject: StonOr works!
Message:
Yikes! Sorry! I misspelled my own name. I noticed it almost happened once today, so ...
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Date: Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 21:58:11 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: stonor
Subject: my mistake, I didn't read it correctly
Message:
I just had this idea in my head that you were 'Stoner', so that's how I read it.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 20:18:40 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: No probs, til later? (like, give us a day or 2?)nt
Message:
No probs, til later? (like, give us a day or 2?)nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 20:52:30 (GMT)
From: bloodboils
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: cookie cutter christs
Message:
One thing that the fat boy did for me was stimulate my interest in mythology and ancient religions. Prior to the fabrication of the christ character there are 22 historical examples of so called enlightened beings being killed, crucified, dismembered and then resurrecting. I read about this on an ex-mormon website. exmormon.org. Brethren and sistren in having been majorly duped.
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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 14:31:55 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: bloodboils
Subject: cookie cutter christs
Message:
Hi, Blood,

I emailed the Mormon site about your reference, and this was their reply:

'I searched our site and could not find the information you are looking for. Perhaps your referrer found it on a site to which ours links.

Sorry we can't be more helpful.'


Never mind. However I did find this: (at http://amunpage.virtualave.net/thefacts/food4thought.html)




'Virgin birth stories were fairly common in pagan myths. The following mythological characters were all believed to be have been born in divinely impregnated
virgins. Romulus and Remus, Perseus, Zoroaster, Mithras, Osiris-Aion, Agdistis, Attis, Tammuz, Adonis, Korybas, Dionysus.' Hayyim ben Yehoshua, 'Refuting
Missionaries, Part 1: The Myth of the Historical Jesus'

'Wittoba, one of the Hindu gods, is represented with holes pierced in the hands and arms outstretched in the form of a Roman cross (but not fastened). The figure is
crowned with a Parthian coronet, typical of all incarnations of Vishnu. The feet are also pierced.

'In Anacalypsis by Godfrey Higgins, the god Indra is described nailed to a cross with five wounds representing nail holes. In the oldest accounts of Prometheus, it is stated that this saviour was nailed to an upright beam of timber to which was affixed arms of wood. The cross was situated on Mt. Caucasus, near the Caspian Sea.
The story of Prometheus’ crucifixion, burial and resurrection was acted in pantomime in ancient Athens 500 years before Christ'.

'We find no less than twelve mythical-historical personages before the advent of Christ, who are said to have suffered crucifixion/death and to have risen from the dead. Among them are:

Osiris
Krishna
Wittoba
Attis
Indra
Prometheus
Mithra
Dionysus
Hesus
Aesculapius
Adonis
Apollonius of Tyana

Several of these figures are said to have been crucified at the spring equinox and to have risen on the third day.' -The Christian Conspiracy: The Orthodox
Suppression of Original Christianity

These are list of some of the so-called pagan gods that pre-dated Jesus. Whom Jesus’ qualities and biblical similarities were taken from:

Adad of Assyria
Adonis, Apollo, Heracles (Hercules) and Zeus of Greece
Alcides of Thebes
Attis of Phrygia
Baal of Phoenicia
Bali of Afghanistan
Beddru of Japan
Buddha of India
Crite of Chaldea
Deva Tat of Siam
Hesus of the Druids
Horus, Osiris and Serapes of Egypt
Indra of Tibet
Jao of Nepal
Krishna of India
Mikado of the Sintoos
Mithra of Persia
Odin of the Scandinavians
Prometheus of Caucasus
Quetzalcoatl of Mexico
Salivahana of Bermuda
Tammuz of Syria (who was, in a typical myth making move, later turned into the disciple Thomas 16)
Thor of the Gauls
Universal Monarch of the Sibyls
Wittoba of the Billingonese
Xamolxis of Thrace
Zarathustra/Zoroaster of Persia
Zoar of the Bonzes




So much for the exclusivity of the Xtian religion!


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Date: Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 00:24:18 (GMT)
From: bloodboils
Email: None
To: great cq
Subject: very nice work cq
Message:
The information I referred to regarding the cookie cutter christs was from an email group based on the exmormon site. Sorry you went to all of the trouble to search the site. There are a number of exmormons who regularly post to a board which remails to all of the members. Apparently there is no record or archive of all of the posts. A number of ex mormons are very intellectual and do great amounts of research...as you have done.

They keep each other jazzed and provide a sense of belonging to something. At some point I think that they will be able to bring down the church by getting the press to take a good look at the facts.

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 15:00:01 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Great research cq - Thanks! (nt)
Message:
aaaaaaaa
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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 16:01:30 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: bloodboils
Subject: Love your metaphor, can't stand your name!
Message:
(Sorry, had to say that - it doesn't make me feel very relaxed to talk to someone with the name 'bloodboils.')

About 'cookie cutter christs' . . . I don't really want to go over the Bucke ground again, but maybe you could search the archives a few weeks ago. Too bad it's not that easy. According to some of my integrative reading, the development of intelligence is accellerated through reading (and probably writing), and the IQ test, apart from its sexual/cultural bias, measures primarily linguistic skills. To improve intelligence beyond a certain point is said to require love.

This 'dismembering' is interesting - while I was in Peru, I made contact with a self-described Sendero Luminoso member, a professor at a university there. He told me of the Quetzua (sp?) myth of of their dismemberment when the European's came. He said that they believe that each 50 years another part of their body is rejoined. According to him, during this period, their head is being re-attached.

What are you doing at an ex-mormon site? How does it compare with this ex-site?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 18:55:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Well she did it: The Perfect Premie Poem (2000)
Message:
Perfect synchrony

Harmony Gratitude
Learning Happiness
Appreciation Joy
Treasure Gift

Love Love

Gift Treasure
Joy Appreciation
Happiness Learning
Gratitude Harmony

Ivete Belfort Mattos
Sao Paolo, Brazil

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 19:02:53 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Her name Ivete U. Thinkimjim (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 19:00:43 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The Perfect Premie Poem (2000) Gamma rays on ...
Message:
The Perfect Premie Poem (2000)

Cloning apparatus: status - operative

Rationality factor: zero, acceptible

Buzzword appreciation: algorithm in place

Applicant demonstrating signs of backwardness: AOK

Respect factor: we were there once.

OVER.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 18:59:11 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Okay Jim...
Message:
just tell me now, you sent that in right? Has all your buzzwords in one poem, without anything extraneous, the only ALL buzzword poem I have seen.

You wrote it. I know it.

Hey, while your at it read what I just wrote about the divine crotch under the 'when did you first suspect?' thread. I thought I was hilarious. But then I easily amuse myself.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 19:08:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: No way, Jose
Message:
Wasn't me, Susan. Swear to God. No, Ivette's for real, as far as I know. Ain't that something?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 19:10:25 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I really thought it was you!
Message:
I think we could all send in just about anything and get it published. Remember when Joe did?

I think I will send in Humpty Dumpty.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 19:25:05 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Try sending in something dark and suicidal
Message:
See what happens?

The Last Surrender

Oh Lord,
It's not as if I never tried
I did, I did, I tried so hard
Oh Lord,
It's not as if I didn't feel
I did, I did, I felt so much
Oh Lord,
It's not as if I thought I knew
That's why I tried to keep in touch
Oh Lord,
A world of darkness blocks my love
I'll leave this world,
For you're enough
I'm tired of the fight
Take me in your light
I feel so much alone
I'm ready to come home
I'm too weak to stay apart
I only have one heart
This world requires two
My only heart's for you

I make this solemn choice
To end this worldly voice
And join you in that place
Where judgment yields to grace

This mortal coil unwind
Give back this monkey mind
One momentary pain
And I'll be home again

Jim Heller (deceased)
Formerly of Victoria, British Columbia

Don't forget to put a cool little Canadian flag next to my name, will ya'?

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 02:09:43 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: send it in Jim.....
Message:
I will send my potty poem.

Susan

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 01:22:44 (GMT)
From: Remy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: RE:Try sending in something dark and suicidal
Message:
That is sooooo twisted. Hell of a job!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 18:36:22 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Remy, this could have been you
Message:
Thank you

I am in the process of receiving Knowledge. Last weekend (18 March) I went to Houston, Texas, and met Belkis.

I am waiting to receive Knowledge and have been for about a year now. I have received so many blessings already - they are too many to mention.

My boyfriend has had Knowledge for 21 years, but he says it's not long enough.

I am so happy and content these days. Maharaji once spoke of a second longer being too long but I would wait forever to receive it and that's exactly how I feel.

So please keep me in your thoughts and good wishes while I wait and until I hear from my contact to go to Miami. The longing is so sweet and I know that it is well worth the wait.

Brenda Russell
Austin, Tx, USA

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 01:07:52 (GMT)
From: Remy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Contact
Message:
'While I wait to hear from my contact.'

I remember sitting at one VP with about ten other people. There was another aspirant I knew(well, knew he was an aspirant) in the room with his premie friend right beside him. The aspirant was probably in his fifties that had the very conservative business man type look to him. I remember looking over at the two of them.
I thought that there was a type of status to have brought in a new one.
I also remember thinking, 'he doesn't look like the type to buy this.'

I think now, there ain't no judging the type. I read Brenda's spiel and cringe. The way the whole organization of it doesn't seem to bother her in the least...I wonder what boyfriend and contact are noting about her?
Today I was thinking about a phrase I read here...sorry I can't recall from who, about being 'my own guru'. I then thought it was enough to make the claim of just, 'being my own'.
For a time back there I wondered why so many exes would keep posting here. I don't wonder about that anymore.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 19:07:15 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re:Remy, this could have been you
Message:
I did a Netscape people search for Brenda Russell in Austin TX. One listing was found, address and phone only, no email. I may send her a letter informing her of this site. Should I?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 19:27:05 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re:Remy, this could have been you
Message:
Yes!
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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 17:33:23 (GMT)
From: Wt
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: one of yours
Message:
Out of the blue I get this email from an EX-PREMIE , never had heard the term before. I figured it was from one of those original thinkers from the old days that would appear on the premie house door step one day and stay a few days laying on the couch, grouchy, and criticizing everyone then one day hoping in his old clunker, if he had one, and leaving, and the house makes a sigh of relief.
---------------------------------------------
Hi,

How much would you pay to know the real Maharaji? Rumour has it that Maharajiis working on a video in which he finally discusses his life so far and his ill-fated mission to save the world. Currently in post-production, the video covers a full-length session in which the one-time 'Lord of the Universe' answers questions such as:

Why did you say you were God incarnate?
Why did you promise to save the world?
Are you an alcholic?
Were you ever an alcoholic?
How much do you drink?
How much did you drink as a teenager?
Is it true that your brother, not you, was supposed to take over your father's religion?
Have you ever cheated on your wife and if so with whom?
Why did you start the ashrams up again in 1977 only to close them for keeps in 1981?
What apologies do you have for the many people who trusted you enough to waste years of their lives in your ashrams?
What responsibility do you think you have for the many premies who either killed themselves or flipped out because they couldn't handle their minds doubting your 'divinity'?
Are you divine?
Did you ever say you were divine?
Did you ever lead people to believe you were divine?
What the hell does 'divine' mean anyways?
What does 'Perfect Master' mean?
Have you ever beaten any of your followers?
What have you learnt about life since you promised to save to world when you were twelve?
Are you embarrassed by that proclamation?
Is that why you won't talk about it?
What other big mistakes have you made in your life
Why did you order all your old publications to be destroyed?
Why are you afraid of talking with the press?
Why did you turn down a chance to tell your side of the story in the upcoming New Yorker articlle about you?
Why did you once lead all your followers to believe your whole family was 'divine'?
Wasn't that all just a crock of shit?
Why don't you have any real-life contact with your followers?
Isn't it true that you have no respect for anyone stupid enough to believe you?
Why is your so-called satsang so unbelievably empty and funny?
Do you have enough common decency to answer to the thousands of disillusioned
ex-premies who trusted you?
Are you a coward?
How's the weight problem?

The cost of this video is $29.95. Start saving. You might also want to save for a
copy of the upcoming New Yorker article about Maharaji. Should be out sometime over the next few weeks. You also might want to check out the upcoming newsgroup alt.cult.maharaji where we'll be able to discuss the man and his fortune without the kind of censorship one finds on Harlan's page.

Jai Sat Chit Anand!

Jim

fuck em, I don\t live in a premie house no more so I answer

get me your fucking mailing list asshole,

so the guy comes back with

You mean 'get me off your fucking mailing list asshole' don't you, brother? Relax,
consider this just another piece of unsolicited email. Sure, I won't contact you again.
Perhaps you should avoid the New Yorker this month as well.

Your brother in his love,

Jim

so I'm thinking no.... fuck you brother

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 21:00:09 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re:Remy, this could have been you
Message:
something simple, direct, anonymous:

Dear __________,

Before deciding to receive Knowledge and follow Maharaji, please fully inform yourself with all the available information at the following Internet websites:

The Religious Movements Homepage of the University of Virginia

Elan Vital - Divine Light Mission papers

Ex-premie.org

Rick Ross.com

Religion-cults.com

Roger's House of Drek

The Truth about Maharaji

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 20:58:49 (GMT)
From: bloodboils
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: she is too far gone....life will teach her
Message:
When people get to that state of kidding themselves they imagine anything. They have their blinders locked in place and any threat that comes to their reality is seen as an adversarial force.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 17:54:11 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Hal and Everyone
Subject: Response to Hal re. Osho (thread now inactive)
Message:
Hal,

Thanks for the re-assurance. I guess my concerns about who or what you choose to look to for inspiration/guidance/growth might be seen as out of place (out of order, even). But if there's one thing this Forum is useful for - it's sharing our experiences. And forewarned is forearmed, as they say.

Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (now a.k.a. Osho), from what I remember of him during my days around the ashram in Poona, India, (1977-80) was a fascinating old scoundrel. Definitely an orator of hypnotic ability, with a message (at least back then) that was intelligently anarchic. The majority of 'neo-sannyasins' (as we were called) around him were a remarkable collection of people too. I guess some of my best memories are from those days. Pity it all had to go so horribly sour.

For me, things started changing for the worse at around the time Ma Anand Sheela (a relative of Rajneesh's) started to wield her influence around the place. By the end of the 70s, she had introduced a totally different vibe to the ashram. It was around that time that Bhagwan started to get hooked on nitrous oxide (believe it!), and the power politics began in earnest. But I won't bore you with the sordid details here, - if you're into the sociological factors of life around that particular Master, I'd recommend Hugh Milne's book called 'Bhagwan: The God that Failed'.

But, in the end, the experience was ... well, educational at least. The dozen or so encounter groups I went through were certainly therapeutic, if not enlightening, and the meditations definitely had quite an effect. (Watch out for that 'dynamic' meditation though - it can do a lot of harm to your spine, if practised as they tell you to). As for the women I became involved with, one, Ma Deva Sammati, still has a very special place in my heart. Ooooh ... the memories ...




Hal, you've just left the Maha after many years of Bhakti (devotion), and my guess is that eventually you'll start to feel a bit of a gap where that old yearning for a master was. Well, what can I say? Each to his/her own path, and I hope yours leads you where you want to be going. The least we can do is try to understand ourselves - why we are the way we are. And the most we can do? - Be ourselves.

May Gaia guide us all.




Best wishes

Chris.

P.S. Last year I posted the text of my first 'darshan' with Pugwash, - if you're interested you can find it (and some of the interesting feedback it generated) in the archives here: http://www.ex-premie.org/archives/archive.cgi?arch=f4a11b#Pf4a11b111

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 20:16:02 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Response to Hal re. Osho (thread now inactive)
Message:
Dear Chris,

That was most kind of you to write that piece on pugwash. I must reiterate that there is no fucking way I'm looking for any kind of master. I'll take my inspiration in life from wherever it comes, but no more looking up to anyone as being better or superior to me. No more fatgurus, slimgurus, psychology gurus, new age workshop leader types, dead masters, ascended masters. absolutely nothing but little old me and good communication with people such as yourself and others on and off the forum.

Many thanks

Hal

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 20:20:47 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Just how I felt before meeting ... (imagine) nt
Message:
Just how I felt before meeting ... (imagine) nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 18:04:42 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: oops, not so inactive. (nt)
Message:
oops, not so inactive. (nt)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 18:24:19 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re:Osho
Message:
Chris,

Is there any discussion forum for ex-sannyasins similar to our forum here?

Loved the 'Pugwash.' Gurus are so easy to make fun of.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 19:37:45 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: ex-sannyasins
Message:
Re: ex-sannyasins

I've tried a search on 'ex-sannyasin' and 'ex-Osho', and some sites do exist that contain these phrases.

Unfortunately they're in languages I don't speak.

Someone posted here about a week or two ago with a link to another site that hosts post-cultist discussion, but I haven't had time to follow it, and have now lost the link. Fancy checking the archives?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 16:41:36 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Ebay Alert Blue Aquarius!!!!!
Message:
Bhole Ji Ki Jai

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 17:30:21 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Ebay Alert Blue Aquarius!!!!!
Message:
Hi Susan,

I've got odd bits the Lord of the Universe memorabilia knocking around, like one of his paintings. It's been in the back of my mind for ages trying to think of a way to sell this junk to rich premies.

I mean, if a Van Gough is worth 20 million, what must a painting be worth by the creator of Van Gough, if you get my drift.

If anyone wants to be my agent, I'll cut you in for 10%

Anth the Breadhead Without Scruples

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 18:03:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: One of his paintings?
Message:
Anth,

What's it like? What happens to you when you 'meditate' on it?

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 15:46:49 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: One of his paintings?
Message:
Hi Jim,

Inspiring thoughts flow naturally into my mind, like, 'I wonder I how much I could get for this. Hmmm, I think I'll sell it, then spend the money paying unemployed people to hand out leaflets advertising Ex-Premie.org at the next public program.'

That way everyone benefits.

Anth the Art Dealer

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 16:46:44 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: One of his paintings? Picture?
Message:
cant't we make a picture of this, and have it on my website?

I'm sure everybody would love to see what it's like !

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 16:50:56 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: One of his paintings?
Message:
Not before I get the negatives of the last London Latvian night, d'you hear???

P.S.
How much?

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Date: Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 12:13:02 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Negatives
Message:
they're on the way Chris, being scanned very soon

take care

anth the dealer in smutty pictures

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 05:06:31 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: Warning!
Message:
Cannot resist spreading my flora paranoia on this one.

I once bid for a Maharaji item on eBay and then realized that unless I made an effort to cover my tracks that 'they' would find out who I was. And my paranoid mind said, 'It's a trap.'

Behind each and every eBay item is Maharaji or an agent of Maharaji. Not only is Maharaji making money on cleaning out his warehouses of unsold trinkets, but he is also building a list of those even remotely interested. What he does with that list I don't know and I don't want to find out.

Of course, I'm paranoid and that's why they only let me out on the Internet once a month or so. Therefore, disgard my lunatic rantings and buy, buy, buy! Hurry, before all that Internet cash dries up and goes away.

The sky is falling!

So, please! Some brave soul buy Blue Aquarius and make MP3s of it and put it on the web. It's too good to be true. Watch out for Mr. CD because he has the cash to out bid you. And he will in order to protect his precious Maharaji who is not really the Lord of the Universe or anything like that - just another ordinary Joe, but who is extra special.

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 16:05:54 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Warning!
Message:
Hi Roger,

Good to make contact again.

Are these the same people who fed us that secret potion in the Italian restaurant in San Francisco, then planted those transmitters under our skin, and took all our money, while we were unconscious in Oakland that night?

And how did I get those tattoos?

There are lots of unanswered questions from that weekend.

(I found out the name of the Mexican I woke up in bed with that Sunday afternoon. He's called Raphael. He says I owe him money.)

Anth the Memory Loss

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 05:10:57 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Roger, can you call me right now? (Important)
Message:
you know, (250) 360-1040.

Thanks

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 19:21:59 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: Email me!
Message:
no massage
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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 19:33:19 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Done!
Message:
dd
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 15:14:02 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Satsang, Lies and Videos
Message:
Here is a direct link to a new chapter of that astounding old Indian DLM booklet dated 1962 (Antidote to Nuclear Bombs).

What we want and how we can get it ?

The question of course is: do we want stuff like ...

due to grave misconception, delusion and ignorance, sensuous enjoyments are generally mistaken for eternal happiness. Consequently all efforts are misdirected towards the attainment of sensuous pleasures. This misdirection of efforts ultimately leads to frustration and sufferings.
........
Materialism can only provide momentary satisfaction the cravings of sense organs which ultimately leads to grave sufferings. Thus the pursuit for the attainment of sensuous pleasures is the primordial cause of all sufferings.
........
...or any other Sadguru who had been known since before and were known for their divinity and True Gyan but were no longer in mortal bodies at that time but directed him to seek the shelter and guidance of a Gayani Tatwadarshi. Likewise neither Lord Jesus Christ nor Prophet Mohammed nor Lord Buddha instructed the people of their time to study scriptures or to seek the shelter of any Sadguru who were not in mortal bodies for acquiring knowledge and salvation. Rather they all advised them to come to their shelter respectively. This signifies unambiguously that the knowledge of Shabd-Brahma and the vision of Divine Light is acquirable from the Living Sadguru alone and from none else and without this Gyan, eternal bliss and salvation remains only empty words, a mere myth! Hence for attainment of eternal and integral happiness and salvation in the world and for deliverance from the whirls of rebirth and death hereafter, the grace of a living Sadguru is entirely indispensable.
.........
The Guru makes visible this self-effulgent Divine Light by opening Divine Eye within oneself and removes the darkness of ignorance about this Light. No person, however, learned can be called a Guru who is not able to open the Divine Eye and show the Divine Light withinself instantaneously.
........
...- you alone are the adorable Supreme Guru, i.e. Sadguru of all gurus - in verse 43 of Chapter XI of the Gita clearly testify to the fact that Lord Krishna was the Sadguru of that time. From the above it is evident that the Sadguru is the very manifestation of the Divine Light i.e. God.
.......
The question which agitates the mind of many people that whether or not one should look into the character and personality of the Guru is solved by the aforesaid traits of the Guru. Since a Gyani ostensibly works just in the same way as an ordinary man does, it is very difficult to fathom the true character of the Guru. More over since a saint always loves to tread a path unfamiliar to the common man and even contrary to the prevalent ethics, any attempt to probe into the character of the Guru by ethical yard stick is bound to lead to miscalculations and misunderstandings. 'The rules or conduct of life which the intellect of men lays down cannot apply to the liberated Soul i.e. Sadguru. He is outside the narrow jurisdiction of these fallible tribunals. He is not governed by the judgments of men or the law laid down by the ignorant.' The only thing to be sure of in the Sadguru, therefore, is whether he is competent to open our Divine Eye and make visible the Divine Light. If he is so competent, the natural conclusion is that he is beyond all mean natures and is not only the purity in thoughts and actions personified but the very God manifest. And it is only he who is competent to lead man to perfection.'
........
I guess we're losing our time here !!
.......
The very birth of a man is indicative of the fact that his mind is completely enlaced in delusion because births and deaths are the results of actions performed in delusion. Delusion breeds passion, desire, anger, infatuation, lust and egoism which are the very root cause of all evils, sins and bondage.

We're all doomed, poor us ....

Hence the door to Gnan is open to entire humanity. What is expected of him is an intense aspiration and unreserved dedication and service to the Satguru alone who is competent to purify even the vilest of the beings in a second and deliver him from the bondage of births and deaths.

Thank God, we can still be saved by his infinite grease ....

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 13:56:30 (GMT)
From: card man
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: april programs
Message:
just heard the other day that lard-man will be giving programs in april in the states-la,denver,chicago, dc,miami...
does anyone want to design a card with the website on it that could be distributed and left in public places for premies and aspirants to find? People could download it and leave them around before and after the programs, or make into small flyers and posters.Maybe a different name rather than 'ex-premie',like 'the rest of the story', or 'little known facts', or 'nostalgia'. These are just suggestions, but could lead to this site. Titles like these might be more inviting and less threatening to a premie or aspirant. something that encourages them to look at the whole story, not just m's prepackaged drivel might be helpful..
any suggestions?
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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 17:33:45 (GMT)
From: A.P.
Email: antiprem@aol.com
To: card man
Subject: april programs
Message:
I have read all of the messages in this thread and have had the very same idea, but I didnt realize there were others out there who would help me. I am not a premie or and ex-premie but am very close to several premies here in the Miami area. I have a lot of information about the upcoming events. In fact, there have been meetings with area managers every couple of weeks for the past month 1/2 here in preparation. If any of you webmasters want to contact me, I can provide you with some information for your websites. I also have already sent e-mail to a local TV reporter I've known for years to try and get them to do a story on the upcoming miami event. With the recent developments in Uganda, they may be very interested. I have listed an e mail address above where I can be contacted. If there is anybody down here in Miami that wants to get together to put some kind of flyer together i'd be happy to assist. Also, does anybody know how the satellite broadcasts work? The upcoming satelite event is supposed to be an announcement of his schedule. I would love to be able to find a way to open the eyes of some of these people.
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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 02:35:53 (GMT)
From: web surfer
Email: None
To: card man
Subject: Satellite Broadcast - North America - April 9th
Message:
From Visions International web site:

Satellite Broadcast - North America - April 9th

TIME
A satellite broadcast will be televised to North America
on April 9th at 1PM Pacific time (4PM Eastern)

CHANNEL ...

CONTENT
The purpose of the broadcast is to provide an update on
Maharaji's current activities and plans. The broadcast
will include excerpts from a recent meeting in
California where Maharaji gave his perspective on
upcoming events and spoke about a project he has been
working on.

AUDIENCE
This broadcast is intended for people who have
received Knowledge and people who are preparing for
Knowledge. It is not introductory in content.

TRANSLATION
The broadcast will be in English. Translation into
Spanish will be available. ...

ORDERING INFO
The cost of providing this broadcast, based on
estimated attendance, is $25 per individual viewer. If
this is the first time you have ordered a pay-per-view
from Visions, you will need to include your smartcard
and receiver numbers in the comment section of your
order.

#10-0023-80 $25.00 [Order button]

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 03:22:07 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: web surfer
Subject: $25.00 = free (yes, and 2 + 2 = 5)
Message:
From Satellite Broadcast - North America - April 9th:

The cost of providing this broadcast, based on estimated attendance, is $25 per individual viewer.

From About Elan Vital:

Admission to events is free of charge.

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 02:56:55 (GMT)
From: bloodboils
Email: None
To: web surfer
Subject: Without advertising or charging fees to attend
Message:

snake oil peddlars

For over 30 years Maharaji has been sharing a simple yet profound message with those who wish to hear it: happiness is not a result of circumstances in one's life, but is available because one has life.

Without advertising or charging fees to attend his speaking events, he has genuinely touched the lives of millions of people worldwide.

The Knowledge Maharaji offers includes four techniques that enable those who are interested to connect to an inner experience of enjoyment.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 23:47:31 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: card man
Subject: april programs
Message:
As the originator the the stealthcard idea, I feel duty and honor bound to create a design. However, anyone can create one easily with Word Perfect, Word, Microsoft Publisher , Microsoft Works, etc.

The text is, of course, what is important. Besides site address, how about a few pointed questions, a la Jim style?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 18:12:01 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: card man
Subject: Do you have the dates for Chicago and LA?
Message:
And do you have the locations?

I wouldn't be surprised if EV is VERY secretive about where these programs are held. I think they might be concerned some of us might show up.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 17:24:09 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: card man
Subject: flyers garage band style
Message:
If you can't figure out how to print up a bunch of stuff yourself, any Office Max, Office Supply, etc will print up cards for you. Or you if you like flyers better, you can simply type or use magic marker and xerox them.

Sounds like the address of one of Dave's site:

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Island/6049/

coupled with a simple slogan:

More about Maharaji

on some business cards would get you a pretty good time for $5 or $10.

It's a cheap date for sure!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 18:43:09 (GMT)
From: Dave
Email: vpost3@hotmail.com
To: Runamok
Subject: More ideas
Message:
I wouldn't advise putting Maharaji's (unofficial) Homepage on the card because it's too derogatory to Maharaji. But it's different with The Great Worldwide Linkup because it really is a neutral site, although you don't have to look far to see some truths about Maharaji.

I can easily create a much shorter URL which is easy to remember. For instance

http://clix.to/maharaji

gets you there - try it and see!

I think a business card size of card is better since it more easily fits into a pocket or wallet and looks more attractive and neat than an unwealdy sheet of A5 paper.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 23:26:08 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: More ideas again
Message:
I think curiousity kills the cat. People will tend to read any info about M if they are interested in him at all.

Anyway, a card could really have several URL's. I agree a card is a good way to go.

While a press release is also a relatively simple item, a little more responsibility is called for in developing one. You have to leave a name (normally your own or someone who hired you to write one) as a contact person.

But personal contact is the real key anyway. Talking to a reporter who might be interested is what makes it happen. The press release is a one page info sheet with a who/what/when/where/why approach. It's hard to do a negative press release (i.e., against someone's event).

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 14:21:42 (GMT)
From: Dave
Email: vpost3@hotmail.com
To: card man
Subject: april programs
Message:
You could tell them that if they want to contact old friends around the world they should go to The Great Worldwide Linkup.

There's links to premie sites, ex-premie sites there and also The Maharaji Search Engine which searches all the Maharaji related sites, including Maharaji.org, Elan Vital, Visions etc. amonst others.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 21:20:00 (GMT)
From: bloodboils
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Alert Local Press
Message:
for the industrious amongst us. a little note to the local newspapers in the cities

'Boy Guru Surfaces'
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 23:13:33 (GMT)
From: Good Idea!!!!
Email: None
To: bloodboils
Subject: Alert Local Press!!!! EVERYWHERE!!!! nt
Message:
nt :-)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 23:54:33 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Good Idea!!!!
Subject: TO ARMS! TO ARMS!
Message:
Most premies have never heard of ex-p.org. Besides the cards, we need a big sign possibly along with a MEDIA EVENT! advertising the web sites!

I hereby declare I will support any subversive activities regarging this endeavor for the Miami Program. If the Cubans can do it, SO CAN WE!

Any media event ideas?

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 09:39:26 (GMT)
From: Dave
Email: vpost3@hotmail.com
To: dv
Subject: To keyboards as well
Message:
There is something which has struck me; the premies who are on the internet will already have done a search on Maharaji in the search engines and will already know about this site. I'd think it highly improbable that any online premie wouldn't know about the ex-premie sites.

On the other hand, premies who don't own a computer and/or are not online might have already heard vague references to the ex-premie sites from other premies and Maharaji himself but have never been able to do anything about it.

While I think that any type of advertising of ex-premie sites is a good idea, the main work is already being done by all the people here and that includes the premies because they have done a grand job of putting people off Maharaji and his cult by their general attitude and online behavour.

(P.S. I've dropped the 'Sir' for now but I am Sir Dave.)

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Date: Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 00:10:09 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Not the ones I've talked to.
Message:
P's shy away from the hint of anything negative. Every one I've talked to doesn't know of the sites except for maybe some rumours. And I agree, advertise any way possible.
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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 01:41:40 (GMT)
From: Good Idea!!!
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: TO ARMS! TO ARMS!
Message:
Well, I love the Internet: EMAILS GOING EVERYWHERE!!!

We need dates for the media!!!!

How exciting....

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 02:22:06 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Good Idea!!!
Subject: Hey Good Idea:
Message:
Aren't you a wise ass...
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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 00:10:51 (GMT)
From: bloodboils
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: TO ARMS! TO ARMS!
Message:
Multi-Millionaire

Fat Boy Guru Resurfaces

Former followers outraged

Blood Boils
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 01:54:31 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Real 'GIFT' is Gratitude -- Trying TOO hard?
Message:
I went over to enjoyinglife, and today, Alan Roettinger of Agoura, California, posting his 'Life'. It is a series of flowery declarative sentences. One searches in vain to find out anything about Alan, his likes, dislikes, his family, his friends, etc., Those are apparently considered too irrelevent to have much to do with Alan's 'life.' I knew Alan. He was a real gopi in th 70s. He used to get up in satsang and talk about how he LONGED to be with Maharaji, and that we were all too screwed up and undeserving to even see his glory. Given his location and what he says, he appears to be a PAM, so I guess he got his wish.

Not much has changed, though. Following are the declarative statements of Alan's 'life.' Really, I left out very little. But just separating them a little gives the flavor.

Does anyone else get the impression that Alan is trying really hard to convince himself that it really is true? Why else would you write such drivel? To be fair, I'm sure Alan doesn't think it's drivel, but LOOK at it. It seems like he has learned in 25 years to talk just like Maharaji, and that ain't good (notice that he did not leave out either 'impeccable' or 'synchronized,' not to mention 'gift', and Alan tells us that the REAL 'gift' is gratitude. (In the 70s, Alan told us the REAL 'gift' was 'devotion'):

Practicing Knowledge generates a subtle magic, transforming the ordinary into the miraculous.

The turgid sea of change, the ceaseless movement, this flood of emotion, desire and unmet dreams, all suddenly are tamed.

A buffer now exists, so I can see it all and touch it lightly, but it need not swallow me.

What once affected me adversely is simply now a stage on which a marvelous play is in progress.

What's beautiful is that with time, I change.

This precious, undefinable thing that Knowledge brings me into remains constant, but my appreciation grows.

I find myself discovering new heights and depths as life goes on.

I've become inseparable from this delightful process of learning to know it.

Listening to him, I am transported to his world. Treated to a glimpse of his perspective.

Participating in his projects, making an effort to be synchronized with him, I find both a unique feeling of joy and an unbelievably confronting test of my own sincerity.

Working with him, I feel an overwhelming drive to be impeccable, to offer nothing but my absolute best. I feel sometimes like I am in a state of grace, operating on a level far beyond my real capability.

When I don't have the opportunity to be with him and work with him, I deeply long for it. It makes me feel truly alive.

There is this sweet, simple, yet powerfully profound feeling that comes over me. There is a word for it, but in order for its true meaning to be grasped, it must be put in perspective.

Since I've become a willing partner in this 'master-student-knowledge' dynamic, the world has changed for me. The rules have been altered, the road has broadened and I have been set free.

Far from insignificant, this one little speck in the universe is conscious of that which is responsible for its good fortune.

Brilliantly, in a single instant, this delicious chain reaction is set in motion, generating a sense of well being so sublime that my heart literally overflows with joy.

And then, quite naturally, responding to an almost primal, autonomic impulse, you say the words that seem to say it all but don't even come close: 'Thank you!'

This is it. The real gift is gratitude. When you realize the kindness that has been heaped upon you, so generously as to render the issue of deserving utterly moot, there is really room for only one thing. Gratitude.

This is heaven at its peak.

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 03:14:59 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: God, I came three times!nt.
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 18:35:31 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Be Careful of the Computer Equipment (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 20:26:15 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Does this guy have shares in the company? (nt)
Message:
Does this guy have shares in the company? (nt)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 18:06:17 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: This is truly frightening.......
Message:
I read Alan's life again, and it bothers me even more than it did the first time.

How can somebody get themselves into a place in which they feel completely dependent on this 'Master?' Without Maharaji, or at least his belief that all good things come from Maharaji, is Alan's life really THAT BAD? Is his life really a 'turgid sea of change' and a 'flood of unment dreams?' Is his life really that screwed up and unhappy?

I think this is all part of the belief system that premies who stay with Maharaji have to swallow. They have to accept what Maharaji says over and over again, about how utterly empty and unhappy people 'in the world' are. If you accept that garbage, then if anything good happens, you give credit to Mahararji, and you also feel somewhat better believing that you have 'the gift.' This is no different from Christians who feel better thinking they have been 'saved.'

But to me, the proof of the existence of some kind of an 'experience' is how those who have it manifest it. If it manifests as compassion and love, then it might be valuable. But as Remy noticed in his aspirant experience, premies don't manifest that. If anything, as a premie, you become completely self-absorbed with your own 'experience' and being 'grateful' (read, feel luckier than everybody else), for the 'gift' and disinterested for compassion towards anyone else. They turn in on being a part of their pathetic little club. And, of course, Maharaji doesn't manifest compassion in the least. He just takes and takes and lives his obscene lifestyle, getting people like Alan Roettinger to serve him.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 04:38:24 (GMT)
From: Remy
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The real gift is Macabre
Message:
This premiespeak stuff reminds me of that scene from Bull Durham where the experienced catcher goes over the basball cliches for the aspiring pitcher's future interviews.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 02:03:36 (GMT)
From: bloodboils
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: excuse, me while i go vomit (nm)
Message:
aaaaaaa
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 13:14:58 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: bloodboils
Subject: Why that nice name??
Message:
Like... you blood was boiling in anger or something when you picked it?? Or fever? funny! Do you care to say if there is a reason? Just curious. Thanks.

:-)

S

Ps: Lard Sucks!!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 15:08:33 (GMT)
From: bloodboils
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Why that nice name?? ....cathartic expression...
Message:
feels good to exclaim what it feels like to have been so ignorant as to have been involved with the M for about nine years.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 17:49:26 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: bloodboils
Subject: Why that nice name?? ....cathartic expression...
Message:
That is what I thought. Yes we were scammed good! But: Aren't you glad you are not him?????? YES!! What a garbage!!
Bye

S

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Date: Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 03:30:54 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: My blood boils for the entertainment of watching
Message:
The Fat One continuing to squirm and dangle above the endless pit with the rats of IRS and Ex-premie.org chewing on the branch. (remember that one?).
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Date: Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 20:40:09 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: My blood boils for the entertainment of watching
Message:
ROFL!!!!

Very funny... Same feelings here!

S

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 00:33:59 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'Perspectives' page at www.elanvital.org
Message:
On the Perspectives page at at www.elanvital.org, Joan Apter, Michael Borden, Mitch Ditkoff, and Andy Perl share some incredible thoughts about 'life', 'gratitude', 'Knowledge', and 'a Teacher'. Here are some choice copyright-infringing excerpts:

From Joan Apter:

... I am an emotional person; more comfortable following my heart than making an action plan to make my dreams come true.
...
It's daunting to be aware of the motor mouth of the mind. ...

From Michael Borden:

Our culture virtually assaults us with books...
...
The air around you thickens with opportunity. ...

From Mitch Ditkoff:

...He has connected me not only to the will to live, but to the primal force that moves me...
...
(Oh, I almost forgot, I never laugh as loud or cry as much as when I am in his presence.)

From Andy Perl:

... I see people put off by the strange and muddled concepts of Maharaji we often generate.

...words like Master, Perfect Master, etc. are spoken awkwardly, with hidden meaning and mystery. Perhaps something more simple would help: Maharaji is: A: A Teacher... B: A Guide... C: And More - since a relationship of gratitude and appreciation develops over time. ...

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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 01:02:12 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Correction to link to 'Perspectives' page
Message:
Here the correct link: Perspectives
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 02:06:54 (GMT)
From: bloodboils
Email: None
To: G
Subject: more to wretch on (no message)
Message:
aaaaaa
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 20:28:35 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: bloodboils
Subject: You mean 'retch on'? (no message) (nt for short)
Message:
You mean 'retch on'? (no message) (nt for short)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 21:56:56 (GMT)
From: bloodboils
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: thanks for the correction (nmi) (nt)
Message:
aaaaaa
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Date: Wed, Mar 29, 2000 at 19:31:39 (GMT)
From: Suzanne
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hi Everyone
Message:
I haven't posted in awhile, but I do look in here from time to time, and I wanted to say again how much I appreciate what goes on here. My husband and I have been out of the cult for about a year now, and things are going very well. We feel very free, closer to each other than ever, but we feel kind of stupid for having staying involved in something so destructive for so long. I was worried at first about what he was feeling, but when I started being honest with him about how I felt, I found out he felt the same way I did. What a relief.

I still want to remain anonymous because we still have premie 'friends' and our kids know their kids, etc. We are quiet about our departure, but I think the premies we know have gotten the hint that we aren't interested anymore. There have been a couple of premies who can't handle it and no longer speak to us, but I don't think they were ever friends in the first place.

Thanks again, and keep up the good work. I think lots of premies read this website and more than a few, like me, have been given the courage by your guys to trust our feelings and get out.

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Date: Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 00:22:25 (GMT)
From: Jane
Email: None
To: Suzanne
Subject: Hi Everyone
Message:
I could have written the first part of your message myself, except I became an ex long before my husband, which was wierd. It is scarey and insidious how deeply M. 'penetrates a persons psyche... so if you are living with someone who is into M. when you are not , it is pretty uncomfortable. Mega!!! thanks to this site, cos after we went on line, my hubby started reading it... and being essentially (even after xxx yrs with M.) a free thinking, rational person, he is in the process of extricating himself from premie-land.Please don't feel stupid ... we were all after something real and true... have you read Father Love in 'journeys'???...we must not knock ourselves (unless we find it useful)...actually,sorry, do whatever you like... I don't want to tell you what to do!!!! (been there!!!yuk)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 01:37:07 (GMT)
From: Anarchist
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Suzanne
Subject: Hi Everyone
Message:
Thanks for the thanks, Suzanne. Your post means a lot because it illustrates why this place is here and the good it's doing. No need to feel stupid for having been involved for so long. That maharaji cult is like glue and very hard to pull away from. The reason being that for those people in it, it does seem to be the only true thing happening. Such a narrow vision. But that is the nature of a cult.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 05:33:16 (GMT)
From: Father Lambrizo
Email: None
To: u
Subject: Hi Everyone (edited)
Message:
This post has been edited by the Forum Administrator
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 10:50:58 (GMT)
From: Padre
Email: None
To: Father Lambrizo
Subject: Too much chorizo nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 30, 2000 at 05:58:34 (GMT)
From: zelda
Email: None
To: Father Lambrizo
Subject: hey Lambrizo! Too much Lambrusco! NT
Message:
nt
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