Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 22:19:21 (GMT)
From: Dave
Email: None
To: Dabe
Subject: Ahhhhhh soooooo, it's that pesky key magnet guy
Message:
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 22:12:52 (GMT)
From: whoops
Email: None
To: Dabe
Subject: Ahhhhhh soooooo, it's that pesky key magnet guy
Message:
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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 03:26:29 (GMT)
From: The real Dave
Email: None
To: whoops
Subject: Please don't post as me, Rob (nt)
Message:
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 19:13:28 (GMT)
From: Q
Email: None
To: Everyone/Jim
Subject: 'devotional mind games' speaks volumes (nt)
Message:
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 19:37:58 (GMT)
From: Lacaille
Email: montreal.quebec@usa.net
To: Jim
Subject: This is an encrypted message.
Message:
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What does it mean exactly? Who's hiding behind this Q? Micheal Dettmers, is it you?Hi Jim. You got my Email? You know who this is then? Lacaille is a character from a soap airing on French CBC which happen in a high school. He teaches litterature and questions every convention. I like the character. I think you can catch it in Vancouver as well on French CBC. So long pal. Thanks for the group pic. Am I on it standing left? I gained a little weight over the years I realize and started to dy my hair last month.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:38:14 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: questions for michael dettmers
Message:
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Dear Michael- YOu do not know me, but I feel like I know you, at least a little bit.You were one of the top people in DLM, I was a simple ashram/community premie, who saw you speak in different places. I thought you were a sincere, intelligent man who was into knowledge and m and were doing your best within the organization. I heard a famous story that one time in 1976 there was a meeting with m, and all of the honchos told him that he should become the 'world humanitarian Leader'. Supposedly you were the only one who disagreed and supported m, I guess as perfect master, or something like that.Whatever...maybe you could elaborate on that a bit more.So, I have a certain respect for you,based on that story and what I saw of you from time to time.I want you to know that I do believe you, when you say that you sincerely enjoyed and benefited from Knowledge, and wanted to help with the mission to spread knowledge to the world, just as you had helped with the anti-war movement. I too, like mike donner, rennie davis and many others made similar transitions as well, so I feel like we are all kindred spirits in some way... However, I do have many questions for you, as do many other thousands of people in this country, which you are in a unique position to answer, and in doing so, helping to heal not only those lives, but maharaji's and his families as well.Some of those questions have been asked, most notably by JW and Jim. YOur answers make some sense, and I tremendously respect you for answering these important questions. However, there is an entire realm of emotion, common sense and conscience that I feel you have not addressed.I would like to ask you a few questons now, and perhaps a few more later.. 1-When you left in the mid 80's, did you just leave the organization, or did you stop practicing knowledge, and give up the devotional relationship to m alltogether? Was this a difficult transition for you? I ask this, because it has very difficult for myself and everyone else I know. 2-did you really know that m was a 'mere mortal' in the 70's, but kept that to yourself, while everyone worshipped him as god, which he fully encouraged?What was that like?Did you feel any obligation to bring that up to the 1000's of premies who believed otherwise, as per m's satsange about his divinity? 3-While we grew up in our 20's fully believing m to be the most powerful incarnation of god to ever walk the planet(peace bomb?) he now has re-invented himself as just a 'master' or 'teacher' with a simple meditation and message. Doesn't he owe all of the tens of thousands of former devotees any explanation of all this? Can we ever believe him again, when he does these things with no apology or explanation?Is this responsible?Does he take any responsibility for this?If you talk about this now, you are called 'negative', 'in the past', or 'not in the heart', all of which are smokescreens to avoid the real questions.Don't you think new people can see through all of this, esp. when they see 'the other side of the story' on this site?What will premies think abut him, when they finally know all of this stuff, while they innocently go out into their communities and try and 'propagate' knowledge?These are real people, with real careers, families, reputations, bills etc. They go out on his behalf, try and recruit new people, and probably don't know most of this stuff. The new people will probably see this stuff before they do, as they may check out m on the internet. Premies have been told by m not to go on the ex-premie site, so they may not.But what happens when the new recruit checks out this site and goes back to the unsuspecting premie, wanting real answers? The premie is set up by m, and then takes the hit when the new person sees the other side of the story.That premie may lose his or her job, have their reputation ruined,be denied a promotion, blackballed etc..Is this right?M knows all this, but won't talk about it, or have any reasonable discussion with anyone about it.This is the guy who brings peace, tranquility, harmony and light to the world? His devotees are dearer to him than his own breath, or life itself?And he sets them up like this?Shouldn't he give some explanation?Don't you feel some sort of moral or ethical obligation to bring about some understanding here? The last money pitch on the phone feed encouraged people to ask the company they work for to match their donation to elan vital.Can you imagine the corporate response to that, if and when they find out about the history of this group?Do you think that premie would be well received after that in their work place?How about the new premie who knows nothing about all this, goes to his boss, tells him to donate to EV and then gets fired or demoted because this group screams 'cult' when you finally see it in it's entirety, which is far different that the way it is promoted? Michael, forgive me if I go on and on, but these are real issues that need real answers. I have more questons to follow later, but would appreciate some sort of reply. I want you to know that these are sincere questions from the heart, and that I respect you very, very much, both for your past involvement with the organization, and your present willingness to dialogue with people here. Sincerely....LA, and many others as well....
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 10:24:04 (GMT)
From: Dettmers
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: questions for michael dettmers
Message:
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Dear LA, I have read your request and I will do my best to answer some, not all, of your questions. I say some because, as I have already stated, I have not spoken with Maharaji nor attended any of his events or programs for years. Thus, I am not qualified to comment or express an opinion on what is going on now. You ask about the meeting in 1976. First let me give you some of the background that led to this meeting. When Maharaji first came to the West at the age of 12, his mission was not to create DLM’s all over the world. DLM had been created in India by his father’s followers to facilitate the organization of programs. Because he was still a minor, his mother was the patron of DLM in India and she took it upon herself to establish DLM’s in the USA, UK, Canada and elsewhere. For the most part, they were structured as not-for-profit, or charitable organizations, except in the USA where the powers that be in 1972 were advised that the most beneficial tax structure was to set it up as a church. Four years later, the church was notified that it was being audited by the IRS. Now, for whatever reason, the officers and directors of DLM-USA had not anticipated this possibility. Although DLM-Canada was not a church, as the former national coordinator, I had a pretty good knowledge of the covenants and restrictions that apply to these types of organizations. When Maharaji asked me to come to Denver in 1975, one of my first tasks was to handle this audit. As I dug into the rules and regulations governing a church with the help of professional advisors, I discovered that Maharaji, as head of this church was considered to be its chief minister and expected to live and function within the confines of that particular status. To me it was absurd that Maharaji, who was now a US permanent resident, should find himself relegated to the status of a minister of a Denver-based US church. Does anyone believe that Maharaji would consciously choose to put himself in this position. Of course not. This was another example of some of the baggage he inherited. Some of the honchos to whom you refer, however, didn’t see it as such a big deal. When Maharaji asked me what I thought, I told him that I thought it was absurd that he should find himself in this position and that the time had come to re-think his whole organizational structure. With that, he asked my to take on a new role as his personal manager where I would oversee a complete restructuring of his organization. This meeting was not about some people thinking he should be a “world humanitarian leader” and me disagreeing and supporting him as perfect master. Besides, the whole idea about Maharaji being a world humanitarian leader, which I thought was a stupid idea, had already been tried and abandoned shortly after the unveiling of DUO a year or two before. Now, besides clearing up whatever misconceptions you may have had about that meeting, what can we learn from this episode? I found myself grappling with the question about how to set up an appropriate structure that would facilitate the spreading of knowledge and yet be consistent and congruent with an identity that properly reflected Maharaji’s vision and mission. I suggest that when I was grappling with these issues, I was not engaging with an abstract or otherworldly concept of god or lord or perfect master, but with a real human being. And it was important to me that I develop an intelligible and functional interpretation of who Maharaji was and how best to support his work. It was in this context that I gradually come to some of the recommendations I referred to in my earlier memo. I will now attempt to answer some of your other questions by speaking personally about my own experience. Once again, I don’t claim to be right, but what I say is true for me. As a certain point in my life in 1971, I was attracted to Maharaji, or I attracted Maharaji to me (same difference). When I use the word “attracted” I am referring to the principle of “synchronicity.” The Swiss psychologist Carl Jung was the first modern thinker to define this phenomenon -- the perception of meaningful coincidence. Jung maintained the synchronicity was an acausal principle of the universe, a law that operated to move human beings toward greater growth in consciousness. Why was I attracted to Maharaji and who do I think Maharaji is? To me, Maharaji is a teacher. A teacher of what? For me, I was searching for peace, inner harmony, love, and consciousness, and the knowledge Maharaji spoke about sounded like the answer. And guess what? For me, it was. In time, I discovered how masterful he is in the domain he calls knowledge. By masterful I mean that he embodies the experience. And I have countless personal experiences in which I have witnessed that mastery in action. However, whether you consider him a god or a human being, it is still necessary to have some confidence that he is capable of teaching you about knowledge (that logic applies in any student-teacher relationship). And it is my experience that it is necessary to meditate regularly. Is Maharaji a fraud? To me, he is not. He promised that he would teach me how to experience knowledge and he did, to my great satisfaction. I will not attempt to define what I mean by “great satisfaction” since whatever I might say would only be my interpretation or explanation of the experience, not the experience itself (the phenomenon) which is for each person to discover for him or herself. Did I stop practicing knowledge when I left? No, I still meditate almost every day and I continue to enjoy the experience and derive great benefit from doing so. In addition to meditation, I am committed to keeping alive my desire to learn and deepen my appreciation for the beauty and joy of life. Like any human, I encounter some difficulties and disappointments, but for the most part I am grateful that I am continuing to learn and to attract wonderful people and interesting projects that are aligned with what I care about into my life. Did I give up the devotional relationship with Maharaji altogether and was this a difficult transition? I have already expressed my views about devotion so I won’t repeat myself here. But until the time I left, I was very committed and dedicated to helping Maharaji fulfill his mission. When I was involved with Maharaji, I came to know him as a friend for whom I had great love. And love can be expressed in many ways. I wouldn’t characterize mine as devotional but it was love none the less. And it is out of respect for that love and appreciation for knowledge that I refuse to criticize Maharaji. While I was with him, I never experienced the kind of transition you speak about. When I left, I was satisfied that I had done the best job I could do. Of course there was a transition, but I would not characterize it as difficult. As I pointed out, I continued to meditate, I became absorbed in building Dettmers Industries with my brother and others, and I studied with several people who are masterful in the area of organizational transformation that now forms the basis for my consulting practice. For the record, I have never studied EST nor was I ever an EST trainer as someone suggested. I hope you find this helpful. Out of respect for you and other’s I have done my best to respond to some of your questions. I think you will agree, however, given my stand on Maharaji, that I am not the person to whom you should address any of your other questions.
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 17:42:48 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Dettmers
Subject: questions for michael dettmers
Message:
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I won't go into some of the issues about whether Maharaji ran a cult or not. I think my views on that are pretty well known. But I have a couple of questions about your rendition of historical events surrounding Divine Light Mission. Regarding the structure of Divine Light Mission, I recall that prior to about 1975, Divine Light Mission in the USA was indeed legally a church. We in the ashram were legally monks, even to the point where at our jobs we had no withholding of federal income taxes, using the church status for the exception. My understanding was that the IRS, perhaps as a result of the audit, made the decision that DLM did not meet the qualifications of a church and removed the status. From a personal level, that change required that I pay income taxes for 1975 which had not been withheld. I had discussions with Virgil Cuillio (sp?) an attorney for DLM about this at the time, and that's what he explained. Regarding 'humanitarian leader.' Perhaps you are talking about something else, but it wasn't until the first part of 1976 that we, as premies, were told by the hierarchy at DLM (I dont' know whether that included you or not) that Guru Maharaj Ji was supposed to now be considered a 'humanitarian leader.' It was NOT serveral years before that, although there may have been discussion of which never made it to the rank and file premies. I also recall the US Tour Maharaji did in 1976 in which the Krishna crown was conspicuously absent and the darshan line was more of a receiving line with no feet-kissing or pranaming. As you probably recall, by the end of 1976, this change was over, and Maharaji went back to Krishna crowns, feet-kissing darshan and openly criticized people who had moved out of the ashram in 1976. You may recall that at that point there began, what I call, Maharaji's 'super-devotional' period. Given your views on 'devotion', the period from 1977 to 1982, when that's about all Maharaji talked about, must have been very hard for you. Frankly, I think you may be engaging in historical revisionism or selective memory here. I can't imagine that you stayed involved working for Maharaji when his whole presentation and actions changed so dramatically in a direction that was blatantly 'cult-like.' Also, Michael, by this point Maharaji was into his 20s and was no longer 12. This wasn't 'baggage.' He knew exactly what he was doing, in my opinion. I don't think there is any point discussing your subjective experience of mediation and Maharaji as a person, and I have no reason to believe those descriptions aren't completely accurate.
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 16:51:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Dettmers
Subject: Please, Michael, a bit of a 'thought experiment'
Message:
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Michael, Thanks for finally joining in. It takes a certain chutzpah for you to post here, especially feeling as you apparently do. Like I've tried to explain here I've honestly enjoyed talking with you to the few times we have already. Unlike a lot of premies, you seem to actually want clear communication although, as you know, we might differ with respect to what that entails. There was one point in our first chat where you said something, I countered back that that didn't make sense, you stopped for a moment and then cleanly, maturely and with no fuss or muss conceded the point. Just by doing that that one time you exceeded the average level of honesty I've come to expect of premies. I won't belabour the point but simply invite you to read the dialogues in the archives if you think I'm exaggerating. There is an average and it's unfortunately very, very low. So a little honesty is always a welcome break. But now, Michael, I really want to challenge you. Here's my question: do you think that an objective, intelligent person who was never a follower of Maharaji but was fully-apprised of his history (via documentation, trustworthy first-hand reports, etc.) would find your stance principled and justified? See, for my money, that would be simply impossible. I have absolutely no doubt that your comments so far would leave many a hypothetically objective jaw agape, to say the least. As soon as anyone read any of the satsangs from the seventies or early eighties, whether they be Maharaji's, the Holy Family's or anyones, they would see the classic indisputable hallmarks of a cult. Further, they would see all of your comments as falling very short of the mark in terms of addressing the obvious issues. You talk carefully. You know that about yourself, I'm sure. Talking carefully can be a strength or a weakness. If you're talking carefully to most accurately appreciate or explain a complex phenomenon, that's just great. As a lawyer, I often have to talk carefully, just to make a point and, like I say, sometimes to even understand what I 'think I mean'. But there are other times where talking carefully frankly insults the subejct matter. I think that Maharaji, in some respects, is one of those subjects. Michael, any ojbective, informed person is going to look through DLM and EV's past and immediately question the ultimate source, the authoirty that drove it from inception. You seem to, again, very 'carefully' avoid that step. Where's your natural curiosity, man? Don't you want to know where this purported unicorn got his horn? Or have you mortgaged your curiosity to service some supposed higher debt? How much of Maharaji's admonishment to 'always have faith in God' and to 'leave no room for doubt in your mind' are you still carrying around with you? Honestly, I think you don't know the answer to that yourself. But, you have to admit, it's a damned good question. No, an objective, informed person would call this thing a cult with nary a second's hesitation. 'The guy called himself God? Cult. He proclaimed himself as the saviour of mankind, foretold apocalyptic disaster if the world didn't all come into his fold? Cult. Told people that he and he alone had the secret of life which he had taken a human body to dispense? Cult. Urged people to aver their minds as poison? Cult. Ammassed a literal fortune all under the guise of collecting support for his 'divine mission'? Cult' Michael, the only real problem in this thought experiment is imagining an informed outsider who would take the question seriously, so obvious is the answer. So, then, what would Mr. Informed Outsider make of you? I'm sorry, Michael, but I think that answer's also obvious. He would call you a slick but transparent cult apologist, again without hesitation. He would have no problem pointing out the delicate, delicate dance you're doing, tip-toeing around the hearty, messy issues we all care about, trying so very gingerly to find some plausible good light to cast this Maharaji character in. Now, I'm not saying that that would be my opinion. I'm saying that that would be any informed outsider's. Do you disagree?
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 16:02:46 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Dettmers
Subject: questions for michael dettmers
Message:
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When I was involved with Maharaji, I came to know him as a friend for whom I had great love. And love can be expressed in many ways. I wouldn’t characterize mine as devotional but it was love none the less. And it is out of respect for that love and appreciation for knowledge that I refuse to criticize Maharaji. In the many debates with premies here, a very reliable measure of their cult membership is their inability to criticise Maharaji. It seems to me that you, Mr. Dettmers, are still very much in the cult mindset. Even the use of the word 'appreciation' is a relatively recent event is cultspeak evolution, so I question your distance from the cult. No, it appears that in any open, rational, examination of the Maharaji phenomenon, and its effect of his followers, you are of little use. It is a pity. John Brauns
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 13:22:09 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Dettmers
Subject: One question for Michael
Message:
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Michael, I know there are a lot of people who have a lot of questions. If you could just answer one that I have it would be this; You told Jim, 'uncategorically', on the phone that you, at one time, believed M was the Lord Of The Universe who was here to spread the Knowledge Of God. Why did you change your views on that?
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 14:41:51 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: A qualification regarding 'phenomena'
Message:
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Michael, Just so you know, I understand your perspective between phenomena and interpretation. What I'm curious about is what was the spark that ignited your change in interpretation? Was there anything in particular?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 19:29:36 (GMT)
From: Lacaille
Email: montreal.quebec@usa.net
To: la-ex
Subject: questions for michael dettmers
Message:
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My guess is Micheal is dishonest. He must have seen the whole thing as a business in which suckers were taken for a ride. Talk about ethics. My guess is he ain't got any. From people who mingled with him and his brother in Florida, there are loose-ends that don't add-up. If he was honest and sincere, He couldn't have left the whole thing behind all of a sudden, K, M and job as CEO. Furthermore, his wealth don't compare with his associates and brother/associate. Thus, it couldn't come neither from family, nor from business. My guess is as good as yours. Someone should interview his ex-wife and brother on the matter. Don't bother to ask him anything. He'll deny any wrong doings just as during the Watergate era. If he admits M is a fraud, he'd admit his own dishonesty. Just as I've made-up my mind on O.J., I don't think much of Micheal. He got a few choices: a)ignore every question until everyone forgets about it (which is very unlikely. Since he's attainable, anger directed against M lands on his doorstep. Now that he got involved in the conversation, it would be impossible to reverse the trend.) or b) keep lying and pretend everything was and is dandy hoping this will quiet the uproar directed against M and his fraud. Also unlikely c) be honest; write a crunchy tell-all book; confess and sink M for what he is; become a professionnal ex-premie; give lectures on the culture of the 70's and interviews on Politically incorrect and 60 minutes on cults. If - and I think he does - he has two cents worth of judgement, he'll choose C). His present attitude is dictated by guilt and perhaps fear of reprisals by M. Guilt is easily overcome, but fear of reprisals by M would remain a major inhibitor.
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 01:37:28 (GMT)
From: book buyer
Email: None
To: Lacaille
Subject: sign me up for Dettmers Tells All Book
Message:
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Dettmers Tells All Former Cult Lieutenant Washes Hands of the Matterthis would be a best seller.
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 15:38:26 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Dettmers
Subject: One suggestion to Dettmers
Message:
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To Michael Dettmers, I have read your post above and now understand that you refuse to criticize Maharaji, in honor of the love and respect you have had with him on a personal level. You do not say that you are unaware of any possible criticisms, only that you will not speak them yourself. We ex-premies who are active on this website can only honor your decision and I will in no way attempt to sway you or try to get you to publicly denounce Rawat with insults or negative story-telling. But I do have one suggestion/request for you, and I suggest it because you present yourself as someone who has been sincerely trying to help people your whole life. Please, I urge you, read the expressions on the Enjoyinglife website, a premie site dedicated to Maharaji. Read in particular the expressions from March 2000 including Noel Phillips of Malibu, Alan Roettinger of Agoura, Jonathin Minton of London and Brenda Russell, an aspirant in Austin TX. You will soon see that Rawat is still currently being presented as a sort of savior figure to whom heartful devotion should go in order to achieve the true fulfillment possible in this life. The Knowledge is still very much secondary to the Master. Bilkis and other 'instructors' will not recommend any person to receive Knowledge unless and until they renounce all other spiritual affiliations or feelings. Michael, you must understand the frustration that we exes feel when we see what is happening today with the new recruits to Rawat's cult. You must also understand our disappointment that you have no inclination to help.
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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 17:43:47 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Very fine post there,Way. Hope Dettmers answers nt
Message:
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Very fine post there,Way. Hope Dettmers answers nt
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:56:12 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: happyheretic@hotmail.com
To: To Dettmers
Subject: some comments
Message:
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Michael, if you read this: You don't know me, I know you. I appreciate very much that you've stepped forward, but I must agree with those above, it is clear from your post that you are still trapped in the cult mindset.If you refuse to criticize M, then you actually support the fact that he continues to rip off innocent people. The simple fact that you've left M reveals, on the other hand, that in your heart, you know he is a fraud.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 17:45:33 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: who is bill w?
Message:
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Is Bill W., who seems to speak with an air of authority about certain matters, supposed to be Bill Wishard? I met Bill Wishard once, he seemed like a very nice man who was a little straighter than the rest of us. He didn't seem to be an ex-hippie,but more of an all-american corporate type guy who was very sincere in helping m and the organization.I'm just wondering-is this Bill Wishard, and would you care to share anything else that might help us all understand more about m and the organization that so many of us pledged our entire lives to?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:19:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Obviously a pseudonym
Message:
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Don't you remember the TV movie a few years back 'I am Bill W.? I think James Woods was in it. Anyway, it was about 'Bill W.' the founder of AA.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:34:37 (GMT)
From: Bill W.
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Obviously a pseudonym
Message:
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Jim is correct; it is a pseudonym based on Bill W., the founder of AA. Definitely not Bill Wishard, who is indeed a nice guy. Sorry for the confusion.
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:25:09 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Bill W.
Subject: Obviously a pseudonym
Message:
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Why are you calling yourself that? Is there some kind of affinity you share with Bill W that would make you choose him as a pseudonym? Don't you know that Bill is believed to be a cult leader by many, himself? I know if I had my way, I'd tear those Twelve Steps right off the wall, but that would be like saying fuck the Ten Commandments, or take the Sutra of the Forty-Two Chapters and shove them. Very taboo.
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 19:02:05 (GMT)
From: Bill W.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Obviously a pseudonym
Message:
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Actually, I've never been to an AA meeting, but I agree with you that it's a cult. I have some friends who were in AA, and they would most heartily agree with you about its cultishness. I chose the name because it had to do with drinking, not because I'm trying to garner followers. Jeezus, the last thing I'd want is a bunch of people looking to me for 'the way.' Where I live, AA meetings are considered a means to 'network.' Watch 'Short Cuts' if you want to see what it's like. And definitely watch out for that '13th step' that Selene mentions; it's the most damaging one of all, if not for the steppor, but the steppee (or is it shtuppee?).
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:44:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Jesus, Jer
Message:
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Isn't it obvious? The guy's posting about the alcoholic intervention, for god's sake! Now do you get it? Sheesh!
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:58:00 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh
Message:
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Jim, It's been a while since that post. Okay, a short while, but a while is a while, and I lost track and didn't make the connection. It's an interesting thing, this brain science study. You get to learn all about neurons and their connections even as you get to watch them stop working in your own head. Amazing.
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 20:02:00 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Ok, then..... who's watchin'?
Message:
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Jerry: '......You get to learn all about neurons and their connections even as you get to watch them stop working in your own head....' Ok, then who's mindin' the store? Who be watchin'? 'I AM' going to get an answer to that damned question one of these days! he he he :-)
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 19:07:04 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Oh
Message:
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I still liked what you wrote. I had to go into treatment this fall for an out of whack biochemical bipolar condition and part of my 'dual diagnosis' prgram consisted of having to sit through some 12 step meetings and lectures. It was hard to take being a fairly new ex-premie and being so freshing aware of all the cult trappings and conditionings. I agree with Jim regarding the seriousness of an alcoholic intervention though. But the program itself it tough to take.
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 19:49:26 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Oh
Message:
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Selene, I think the 'fellowship' of AA is great, the fellowship, but that's about it. In my own area, a bunch of agnostics and atheists started their own group called 'We Agnostics'. They basically just get together for group support, but have no official program of recovery. I agree with you. AA meetings can be tough to take.
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:38:07 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: thanks jerry
Message:
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That was great. Much appreciated. I had the unique experience of discovering there is a secret undisclosed 13th step {snicker} doing fine thanks w/o ya bill
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 21:29:53 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: AA
Message:
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I know a bit about the 12 step programs, I've known some people who have generally benefited from them. But a lot of people don't. It seems like the steps get too sloganized and substitute for in-depth discussions and understanding. The programs also seem to not emphasize a chemical/biological approach enough. I just had a talk with an AA person who said that it is getting less moralistic. Do you know there's a AA deprogramming web site?
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 22:58:08 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: G
Subject: yeah but....
Message:
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ha..like they all say, 'I don't have a problem with alcohol' :) :) I'm on meds for dysphoric mania or whatever the trendy label is this month. Boy that sounds scary doesn't it?Fortunately I didn't stick around enough to need deprogramming but it does say something that there is a need for a site and/or other means to get clear of it. Mostly I found it unbearably depressing. The 13th step isn't so bad though.
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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 02:00:17 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: yeah but....
Message:
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Dysphoric mania, I believe I knew a premie, no longer following M, who was diagnosed with that. Could it be you? Did you have a dog you loved very much? Actually the AA meetings (I'm not an alcoholic btw, really, I'm not, no, I'm not in denial, I hardly drink at all, I swear it) I went to were more fun than the co-dependant Al-anon etc. ones. I went to a few AA meetings because I knew someone with a drinking problems and had friends in AA. They do help some, but people do get kind of stuck. My friend told me that some people think they can find all the answers to life in the 'Big Book', so Bill W. is sort of like their guru. My assessment is the AA meetings/structure provide a support group and some good advice, but there's quite a bit of confusion also. NA (Narcotics A.), I was told, is less dogmatic. I mentioned my perspective that I think some people sometimes abuse the concepts in AA, like using the 'disease' and 'I'm powerless' concepts as an excuse, like 'I couldn't help it.' Slogans shouldn't be left as slogans. Some people get fanatical about attending the meetings and just hanging out with AA people. To some degree, that's understandable, given that their life is at stake. But it seems like these fanatics get addicted to the program.
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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 03:08:33 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: G
Subject: no i'm more of a cat person
Message:
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But dysphoric mania is making the rounds I think they have found a convenient label for the types that don't get depressed and go off the deep end when given ssri's. ah life... if only that stupid shit had had the answer. funny thing I know more premies on Prosac and Zoloft than ex's.. so how is that???
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:27:04 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: HA! I should have thought of that (nt)
Message:
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:30:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Well where were you coming from? (nt)
Message:
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:33:56 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I plead the 5th
Message:
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gotta see the doctor today.Being a good girl
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 20:16:02 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: Did you drink the 5th or just plead with it?
Message:
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Selene: personally, I vote for drinking it..... pleading doesn't seem to do any good at all!
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 20:18:01 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: ok
Message:
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Let's find one of those canyons and forget this place.
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 00:15:16 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: ok
Message:
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Let's find one of those forgetfulnesses and can this place. :-)
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:29:04 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I can't believe you didn't!
Message:
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It must be that Dr. Bob fixation...
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:18:18 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: I think it's a pseudonym...
Message:
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...and here is why: For anyone who doesn't know, Bill W. (or Bill Wilson) was the founder of AA (along with his wife Lois, and Dr. Bob). Also, the person that posted used the phrase 'I am Bill W.' - if you go to an AA meeting, the speaker will stand up and say 'My name is Bill W. and I am an alcoholic.' BTW, interventions like the one 'Bill W.' described are a technique that is commonly used in AA, and in other alcohol treatment programs. They usually involve the person's family and friends, who all meet together with the person and confront him about his drinking problem.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:17:02 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: who knows?
Message:
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He could have been anyone.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:20:50 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene and Jim
Subject: hey, great minds think alike! (nt)
Message:
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:22:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Watch it, bitch!
Message:
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Hi Katie, How're you doing? I was so relieved to see that I didn't misspell 'pseudonym'. How about you?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:28:11 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Watch your language, boy!
Message:
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Hi Jim... BTW, I can't find our divorce papers and I'm doing my taxes. How much did you make last year anyway?Seriously, everything is OK, but we are both working too many hours in our 'real world' jobs. Know anyone who wants to be a webmaster?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:30:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Oh you're asking for it now!
Message:
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How about Chris Dickey? And Katie, your divorce papers were something special betwen you adn your lawyer. I've got my own set.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 14:43:40 (GMT)
From: thin mann
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: give me your comment on this
Message:
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first i think that it is a fact that you can have the experience of k whitout having devotion for maharajji this is very mindblowing to use a old premieword and it is such a relief it took me 25 years to understand i never dared to get close to that understanding because meditation is very importent to me it is so nice to stop begging maharajji never had the rigth to take the credit for knovledge byt now i cannot help but thinking mayby this was also what jesus,krisna muhamed and all the others so called masters did , and if it is so perhaps humanity are going to change some attitudes towards all religions what do you think
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 17:31:27 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: thin mann
Subject: give me your comment on this
Message:
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Thin: i cannot help but thinking mayby this was also what jesus,krisna muhamed and all the others so called masters did , and if it is so perhaps humanity are going to change some attitudes towards all religions what do you think I am undecided about what the experience of k is all about. I suppose it could be satanic as easily as divine. What does it actually do, and what substantive insights does it provide? If any they are so subtle as to be imperceptible. For instance, k does not even inform ethics very well. It *is* sort of an odd phenomenon, but the jury is out as to whether the 'masters' were genuine benefactors or monstrosities. I think our ideas about religions are changing, as society itself is undergoing a radical transformation. It's possible that I need whatever it was that I surrendered to a 'master' in order to utilize k for whatever purpose it was designed or evolved to serve. --Scott
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 03:04:06 (GMT)
From: blood boils
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: 'It's possible that I need whatever it was that I'
Message:
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'It's possible that I need whatever it was that I surrendered to a 'master' in order to utilize k for whatever purpose it was designed or evolved to serve. --Scott' I love it, rolling on the floor laughing out loud over and over again...absolutely hilarious and true..
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 15:11:34 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: thin mann
Subject: Have you heard of punctuation...
Message:
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...and starting sentences with a capital letter? Seriously, it would make your post a lot easier to read, and you would be more likely to receive thoughtful responses. John.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 15:22:40 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: oh lets not be picky...
Message:
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i think there are some good and relevent points in the thin mann's post - it is the very issue of ownership of experience which gives m the hold over premies - gratitude and devotion can be crippling to the tenderised (by both the aspirant process and practicing Knowledge) psyche - and take a person out of their natural orbit and trap them circling another person who is then in a totally powerful position (vacated by parents, teachers etc) to milk the needy soul for whatever they depend upon - be it money or even more spookily, vanity. This is a real danger.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 17:35:52 (GMT)
From: jerry
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: oh lets not be picky...
Message:
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i think there are some good and relevent points in the thin mann's post me too but i think he's wrong about the religions of the world changing these are already well established personality cults that might and probably will die out as time passes but for as long as they are in effect jesus krishna buddha will always be god/man too bad.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:24:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: jerry
Subject: oh lets not be picky...
Message:
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i know what you mean sometimes i think that its not at all clear what to think about some of those guys you know like sometimes it seems that even if they wre divine they still should have used punctuation just like all the rest of us i mean for example no one ever heard of any spelling mistakes in the ten commandments did they
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 05:52:26 (GMT)
From: Loafji
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: oh, erm, lets not be, picky, know what I mean....
Message:
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i remeber satsang, erm, when, for me , personally, the , erm... yea ! It's like... yes !...the whole, sort of..... know what I mean. I mean, for me, its just like.... you know. It's just just really like ... yea. No wonder eh !
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 12:37:08 (GMT)
From: A.P
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Questions
Message:
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I am reletively new to the forum and not a premie or even an ex, but I am very close to a circle of premies including my significant other. I noticed from doing my research on this web site among other places that you all have a lot of anger towards Maharaji, which I find understandable. I sure would be pissed if someone took years away from me. I have some questions for all of you exes out there. How is it that you were drawn into this in the first place. Wasnt there a family member, or friend that tried to warn you? Why was the urge to pack up and leave so strong? I have noticed many ex premies come from small towns, and have above average intelligence. Since I became involved with a premie I have tried to figure out how such an intelligent person could not see right through M? Where did the power he had/has come from? I remember hearing about DLM among other cult groups in elementary school. I would not put myself high on the intelligence scale but 1 video and I knew he was a scammer. I have tried to present M to my significant other in another light. With stacks of paper all printed with information I found (mostly from these ex sites), Coupled with some quotes I found from M himself and some facts from you guys that made those quotes sound pretty ridiculous. I tried to shed some new light. After a while I was in a room with 2 premies and found out that this one person actually has an automatic withdrawal on a credit card each month to M. WHY????? What is the best way to talk to a premie about how M really is? Any suggestions? I read all the news stories about Uganda. Could this happen? Could Maharaji actually freak out oneday and spike the punch? and take off to some private island he purchased with hard earned premie dollars? My mother taught me to meditate when I was younger and I still do to this day. But I certainly don't owe her any service or kiss her feet for that matter. And I don't think she is some kind of master. I meditate to relieve stress, and it works. I would appreciate some advise. Thanks A.P.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 17:50:46 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: A.P
Subject: Questions
Message:
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Well, I really feel for you. It's a very hard nut to crack. I know when I was a premie, it didn't matter what anybody said that questioned Maharaji or the cult, I had strong defenses for all of it. But keep talking to your significant other. Keep saying how what he or she is doing affects you, and how you see contradictions in all of it. Some of that sinks in, and in retrospect, I wish my friends and family had done more of that, instead of being tolerant liberals who tried to 'respect my beliefs', while they watched me trash my life. Regarding the composition of the premie population, it's my understanding that the vast majority of people in the west who are still into Maharaji are aging holdovers from the 70s. When I was involved, they tended to be mostly white, middle to upper middle class kids, late teens and early 20s, with a large percentage being from Jewish and Catholic backgrounds. They had the luxury of looking for something to follow because they weren't poor, they had some spiritual/religious tradition, and they were really young and impressionable. Those people still involved from this group basically still believe Maharaji is god, although it isn't kosher these days to say so. I'll give you an example. A few years ago, I had lunch with a guy I lived in the ashram with in the early 80s. He was an avid devotee premie then, and still appeared to be. He told me that Maharaji had fired him, in front of a bunch of other people, from being an 'instructor' although his wife was still allowed to be one and it was straining their marriage. He was convinced that it was and right-hand honcho of Maharaji's, David Smith, whom he referred to as a 'Nazi,' who was behind it all. He was very hurt, freaked out, etc. When I asked him why he stayed involved taking shit from uptight reactionaries like David Smith, he said the following, which really floored me. He said: 'Because I know and truly believe that Maharaji knows what is best for me.' He didn't say that he was still into it because Maharaji was god, but that's what it boils down to. He STILL, in the 90s, felt Maharaji was directing his life, and doing so better than he could. He STILL felt he had to 'surrender' to Maharaji. He wasn't in the ashram anymore, but the beliefs were there, intact. When he said this, it brought back all the sick feelings I remember when I constantly subordinated my own better judgment for what Maharaji said to do. BUT.....I think even the die-hard premies who post here often think some of the following: 'Why does Maharaji need to have so much money and wealth? It would be so much easier to follow him and defend him, if he didn't. And why aren't people coming in droves to follow Maharaji, if what he is offering is the ultimate truth? When will the masses Maharaji promised, arrive? And why, if he isn't into the money, are there big trinket bizarres at his 'events.' And why DOES he have to have the latest plane, which is both astronomically expensive and environmentally irresponsible? ETc., Of course this is ended with the thought: 'I know that is doesn't matter about these things, because only the experience matters, and I know that I'm too unconscious to see Maharaji's plan, so it's better that I just don't think about it.' They don't' want to think about it, but if you bring it up, they might have to and eventually, maybe they will.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 16:03:33 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: A.P
Subject: Questions
Message:
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A.P.: I don't know about anyone else, but I was in it for the babes. Seriously though it's like Bill Gates taking advantage of the economic principle of 'lock in' in order to secure a monopolistic advantage. He saw a 'flaw' in the representation of markets and exploited it. In the case of Gurus and other spiritual charlatans they perceive a flaw in human nature and exploit it. The flaw is that we 'want' to believe, and in a certain sense are both dissatisfied with and distrustful of skepticism. Magicians exploit the same flaw, but have a system of ethics that compels them to bring us back to reality before exiting. Not so for the spiritual charlatans. They have no coherent ethic at all. Some are better at the exploitation than others. Sun Myung Moon is better at it than Maharaji. Read the first half of the 'Guru Papers.' The second half has major flaws since it's really a thinly disguised and somewhat sophomoric political statement, but the authors lay out the mechanics of the scam pretty well. --Scott
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 15:16:49 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: Loafji@yahoo.com
To: A.P
Subject: Questions
Message:
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Dear AP. I agree with Way (below) - but more importantly - there is some 'programming' going on - which is not helped by the effects of Knowledge - by this I mean that this form of meditation - when practiced in a climate of 'gratitude' and 'devotion' (allbeit very modernised) - is close to self hypnosis. The smallest, softest suggestions are seemingly reinforced by the tender/feelgood/self-life orientated seduction of a parental philosophy which gives a person PERMISSION and OPPORTUNITY to opt out of a lot of self-confronting issues - and to be validated in doing so by the fat parent who pops up in exotic places as the icon of successful life management. Thoughts please.....
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 14:25:09 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: A.P
Subject: Re:Questions
Message:
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Dear Antipremie, Thanks for the questions and your efforts in Miami. I hope somebody helps you out in May. And I certainly understand your bewilderment and frustration dealing with your significant other who has this very mysterious premie part to his or her personality. (I say 'his or her' because I don't know your gender - a common problem here). Normal everyday intelligence won't work. Premies feel that they function on a different level, a 'higher consciousness' level. Some things make sence on that higher level that sound ridiculous on the mundane level. I was the typical seventies premie, coming from a background of 'otherworldly' experiences with drugs that arroused my interest in the mystic states of Eastern yogis. The attraction of the guru is that he is supposedly in the heightened state of mind that you want to get to. A permanent high. Materialistic concerns about money, drinking, and so forth are all beside the point. The guru can do whatever he wants to do. For instance, in 1996 in Amaroo, Daya put on a big dinner. Premies who could pay for it were treated to quite a feast, including plenty of meat and alcohol. I have two personal friends who were in Amaroo at the time. One could not afford to attend the dinner, and one could. The one who did attend the dinner bragged to me later about how much alcohol Maharaji put away at that dinner without any seeming effect on him. This type of thinking is perfectly consistent with the higherconsciousness aspirations of the guru's devotees. Common sense of normal waking consciousness will go right over your premie friends' heads, I'm afraid. What to do? How to burst their bubble? Wish I knew. Keep trying, though. Maybe some other person here will have some suggestions.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 16:11:34 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re:Questions
Message:
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Way: What to do? How to burst their bubble? Wish I knew. I think you have to keep pointing out the obvious: that the relationship is entirely one-way, and that there is no accountability coming from Maha about anything, nor any real communication allowed from the premies in the other direction. This is the crux of the matter, and though it goes over their heads for a long time it eventually sinks in. The details about Maha's rather Clintonesque lifestyle merely serves to speed up the process a little. --Scott
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