Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 09:39:48 (GMT)
From: Apr 5, 2000 To: Apr 14, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


Stonor -:- The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 16:17:41 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- The Forum is a Bar. -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 13:16:25 (GMT)
__ __ Runamok -:- hmmm... We've discussed the bar thing before -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 21:07:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- This bar has one way mirrors.... -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 18:22:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, no, it's not a bar ... the CULT's the bar wher -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 18:56:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Damn Jim you are always trying to scare the shit -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 19:01:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- Bar analogy extended to its logical(?) conclusion -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 04:44:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Dave -:- I am in agreement with you, Stonor -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 10:24:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- A sarcastic response about 'intimidation' -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 05:13:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- A sarcastic response about 'intimidation' -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 18:35:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- A sarcastic response about 'intimidation' -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 13:10:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ gErRy -:- You squirm like the worm you are... -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 02:33:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Projection? -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 04:58:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Projection? -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 15:49:04 (GMT)
__ __ Daneane -:- maybe dope and not booze for less fighting(nt) -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 15:09:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- maybe dope and not booze for less fighting(nt) -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 23:55:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mike -:- Context is everything, Stonor -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 16:15:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Categorically so? -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 18:42:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Or . . . (to Mike) -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 15:48:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Good question.... -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 16:08:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Runamok -:- maybe dope and not booze for less fighting(nt) -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 02:51:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- maybe dope and not booze for less fighting(nt) -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 04:54:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- maybe less tar and more herbals -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 05:20:50 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- Women on the forum -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 03:30:07 (GMT)
__ __ Runamok -:- Women on the forum- per cents -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 20:58:29 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- Women on the forum -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 17:21:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- Women on the forum unite! -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 18:54:52 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Women on the forum -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 13:01:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- yes, which lends credence to your bar analogy (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 16:14:41 (GMT)
__ Anarchist -:- The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum - get the bastard -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 02:33:13 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 00:13:13 (GMT)
__ __ Bobby -:- The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 02:02:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 16:16:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bobby -:- The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 16:41:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 17:04:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- He copied them from 'The Little Book of Wisdom'nt -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 13:20:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bobby -:- He copied them from 'The Little Book of Wisdom'nt -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 16:43:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Yes, it was a joke (mumble mumble) nt -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 11:46:49 (GMT)
__ __ Daneane -:- On first look -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 00:59:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Good Post! -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 22:22:12 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 00:34:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian -:- The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 11:46:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AOA Ji -:- The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 01:55:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- PS to Brian -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 01:50:28 (GMT)
__ Anon -:- The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 22:13:33 (GMT)
__ __ Anon -:- Some thoughts on why the forum is the way it is. -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 22:45:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Some thoughts on why the forum is the way it is. -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 16:56:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Some thoughts on why the forum is the way it is. -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 17:40:47 (GMT)
__ Bobby -:- The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 21:27:39 (GMT)
__ JW -:- The Ultimate premie fear: NEGATIVITY -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 17:48:58 (GMT)
__ __ AOA Ji -:- The Ultimate premie fear: NEGATIVITY -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 22:38:47 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 17:23:15 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Imagine discussing this shit WITHOUT sarcasm? -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 17:14:09 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- Jim you are an idiot sometimes -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 18:33:28 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 16:55:47 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Drinking Silver -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 13:37:45 (GMT)
__ __ trixie -:- Homeopathy is not new agey -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 10:31:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike -:- Jim a REPUBLICAN?????? NOT!!!!!! -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 22:45:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Trixie -:- Jim a REPUBLICAN?????? NOT!!!!!! -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 05:37:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- I'M the stubborn redneck.....:-) (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 15:30:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- forum Rebuplicans (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 15:24:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- a forum Republicans -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 15:43:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Wrong on two fronts -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 17:24:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- Wrong on two fronts -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 17:52:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Hey Susan.... maybe an herbalist -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 22:53:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ trixie -:- Susan - Jim -My two cents on the Two fronts -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 03:45:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Susan - Jim -My two cents on the Two fronts -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 05:02:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Trixie -:- Confessions of an Addict: Parables Ch 17 vs 1-5 -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 08:10:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- excellent points Trixie -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 04:45:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ trixie -:- steps in right direction -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 07:47:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mash Potato Liver Man -:- Uh, trixie, some tips please -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 16:28:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ trixie -:- Uh, trixie, some tips please -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 19:51:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Categorical statements can stifle freedom ofspeech -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 01:24:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- you want to know about me? (ot) -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 05:31:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- the breastfeeding nazis (OT) -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 02:26:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- The formula nazis? both are extremes -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 03:16:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- The formula nazis? both are extremes -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 22:16:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- The formula nazis? both are extremes -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 01:54:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- zealots (ot) -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 19:31:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- To Susan -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 22:57:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- you want to know about me? (ot) -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 07:12:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Speaking from personal experience? -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 20:04:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- PS: Speaking from personal experience? -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 20:45:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- I wrote a thoughtful eloquent post -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 00:06:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- TWO times? Thank you! -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 01:36:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- I may get dressed as a woman but... -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 13:32:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- Good morning Anth! LOL! (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 16:17:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- I may get dressed as a woman but... -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 14:36:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- ... is this Custard's last stand? (nt) (!) -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 18:39:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- ... is this Custard's last stand? (nt) (!) -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 21:07:47 (GMT)

Passing Through -:- Trying to figure out what board this about -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 16:15:09 (GMT)
__ AOA Ji -:- Trying to figure out what board this about -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 21:20:20 (GMT)
__ __ aoaji -:- conferencing software -ot- -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 11:50:54 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Everyone here is crazy. -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 13:39:58 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- Look no more!!!! -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 00:04:30 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Look no more!!!! -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 02:28:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- yes I remember how I trusted my 8 ball -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 03:55:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- there is nothing absolutely nothing -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 07:06:38 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Look no more!!!! -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 20:20:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- Look no more!!!! -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 02:31:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Hal -:- Myths and legends! controversial or what ?? nt -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 13:31:59 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- On MY first look - damned gurus are all alike -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 01:13:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Bob answers the meaning of life -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 01:45:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- we don't know how he gets those answers -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 01:49:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- something else in that pipe. -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 02:04:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Bob's koan -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 18:17:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Bob's koan -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 20:27:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- sorry Selene, i've just gone off him -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 20:31:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Yes once an ex... even after this weekend -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 23:39:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Yes once an ex... even after this weekend -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 20:17:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- ... even after this weekend, but now it's Tuesday -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 20:26:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- he's right I'm insane -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 20:37:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- good insights? I should say ... -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 20:39:33 (GMT)
__ cq -:- good question ... -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 16:56:32 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Trying to figure out what board this about -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 16:53:32 (GMT)
__ __ Passing Thru -:- where are babes? -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 17:04:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- where are babes? -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 17:29:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Tried...but still don't see any -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 17:57:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Left but dropped by... -:- Tried...but still don't see any -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 14:24:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Tried...but still don't see any -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 02:18:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- hey now Oliver -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 02:22:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- hey now Selene -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 02:38:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I have a new cop out (you know)..... -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 02:44:15 (GMT)

Runamok -:- How many exes... -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 06:42:56 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- You missed one -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 15:31:46 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Screwing lightbulbs -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 13:43:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Try bayonet rather than ES (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 18:40:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- ROTFLOL (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 00:22:54 (GMT)
__ __ Runamok -:- Scratch a premie, find... -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 07:25:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- odds are very high.. like Anth's elastoplasts?(nt) -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 18:42:50 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- You missed one -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 16:42:40 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Nice one, Gerry, and don't forge the New-Agers ... -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 15:58:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ blood boils -:- how many Nw-agrs to clean out the spring for real -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 16:58:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- you sound like a natural volunteer ... -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 17:12:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ blood boils -:- correction I forgot a few, who else did I forget -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 21:32:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- I just got it! 'Clean out a spring'! Ha ha h(nt) -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 18:49:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Very funny - LOL! -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 17:41:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Jerry is not Gerry, and visa versa (nt) -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 16:39:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gerry/ Jerry -:- Uh Chris, pardon me but... -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 16:30:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Uh Chris, pardon me but... -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 16:44:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Uh Chris, pardon me but... -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 17:08:24 (GMT)
__ Oliver -:- How many exes... -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 07:05:01 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- How many exes... -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 07:16:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Oliver -:- How many exes... -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 11:26:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- Hi Oliver - good morning -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 18:11:54 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- Run, it's time to go to sleep now...please!! (nt) -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 06:53:17 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- No I don't know what you mean -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 06:51:30 (GMT)
__ __ Oliver -:- No I don't know what you mean -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 07:07:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gerry -:- No I don't know what you mean -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 07:17:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jimmy Fitz -:- Gerry, lest we forget... -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 19:54:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Oliver -:- No I don't know what you mean -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 11:34:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Forgiveness -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 15:41:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Forgiveness -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 01:17:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Forgiveness -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 17:35:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Forgiveness -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 01:33:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- yup -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 18:13:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- I know you hate me but -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 07:37:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Gerry -:- I like you, Selene. -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 16:27:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- thanks Gerry -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 18:29:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- the perfect time and place -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 08:32:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- what? -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 08:37:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I'll say it again Runamok -- what??? -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 08:55:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Selene--I'm crushed... -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 20:28:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Gerry don't be -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 23:48:28 (GMT)


Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 16:17:41 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum
Message:
I am sincerely concerned about a number of issues, which is why I have taken my Saturday morning to sift through various posts to write this.

The purpose of this forum has recently been described by Paul, and seconded by JW in this way.

This Forum is dedicated to providing accurate historical and current information and analysis about Guru Maharaji and his related organizations for the following purposes:

1. To provide support for ex-premies who have reclaimed their lives.
2. To provide aspirants and others with otherwise unavailable information needed to avoid becoming involved in a life-sucking cult.
3. To provide premies with a dialog about 'knowledge' and maharaji that they would not have otherwise have, in the hope that they may be able to reclaim their minds and lives.

I used to have a reserved respect for some of those combative types for some of their posts - but as I say, inconsistencies wear thin. I don't see how this kind of 'discussion' provides support for ex-premies who have reclaimed their lives, or those who are considering trying to do so. I call it verbal and psychological abuse, and it might well run the risk of turning premies back to 'the fold,' which to me seems clearly counter to the goals of this site. I recognize the difficulty and questionable aspect of 'controlling' the dialogue' here, but attacks and sarcastic put-downs could be discouraged in some way, and there are those who are attempting to do so.

As cq wrote:

Any kind of intimidation is UNfair from start to finish.

Runamok has tried to point out that social Darwinism can only lead to a downward spiral, as in 'Lord of the Flies.'

Women are also marginalized in this atmosphere, as Runamok has also had the balls to point out (receiving no support for his point), which means that the needs of half the premies/ex-premies are not being met. We're all human beings, equally deserving of respect. I don't find it reassuring at all to post clearly as a woman when I read posts with subjects like 'Watch it bitch,' for no apparent reason whatsoever. Nor do I appreciate, as I've said, the flip side of this, which is the standard patronizing use of 'terms of affection' such as 'Sweetie.' Again I ask, 'Why should sex (gender) make a difference unless someone is looking for it? (And who would look for it here?)' Katie made a great effort to explain some of the issues around this, and I thank her again.

cq added to the above mentioned tentative 'mission statement':

BTW, there is, as yet, no 'Mission Statement' for ex-premie.org, which IMHO, makes this place a far more powerful (=free) stage on which the general public can post.

To which I commented:

'I have little interest left in the kind of 'freedom' I have to post here and be freely attacked or sarcastically put down for saying, or trying to discuss what I think, feel, have read or experienced. Taking the time to share information, when asked, about a non-drug alternative that I have personally experienced to be of permanent benefit for emotional and psychological abuse (homeopathy), was met with over-the-top virulent nastiness and general disinterest, apart from hamzen's sole effort to provide a bit of balance.'

Take it or leave it - I have no vested interest in homeopathy, but I do care about my fellow human beings, as I understand all premies theoretically did when they first signed on to bring peace to the world through m and k. And I should also add that when I first started reading this forum, as an 'outsider,' I got a general impression of anger, to the point of everyone being a little bit crazy. (apologies to all those whom I gradually realized were not part of this overall 'tone') Nonetheless, I have felt extremely stressed, and even fearful at times, when I've posted.

I am including an excerpt from my premie-mail friend, which I received on March 11, about two weeks after first posting here (I truly hope he doesn't mind, as it has never been my intention to bring him into my personal attempt to better understand his reality):

I've been reading the 'X' Forum just now - I saw your posts. I am not going to comment on how 'right' or 'wrong' you are in what you think about Maharaji beyond this - he is not the bad guy that you think he is.

Just be careful not to get entangled in all the negativity that is going on there. Any remotely nice and positive view on just about ANYTHING is bound to get you in trouble there sooner or later.

I have gone through the archives and found 2 years ago a very clear example of how he was speaking from experience - it truly saddened me. Also please note, he is still a premie. I do hope that your goals are clarified so that this forum becomes more effective helping premies to 'reclaim their lives and minds.'

I hope Hal doesn't mind if I quote him here - he describes the issue clearly in thanking Anon:

You give me some hope that this forum really can serve a very worthwhile purpose. You help me feel better and I'm sure that wavering premies would find much encouragement in your intelligent and civilised way of dealing with communicating.

I hope so too, and wish everyone here all the best in your efforts to achieve your honourable goals.

Stonor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 13:16:25 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: The Forum is a Bar.
Message:
Hi Stonor,

The only way the forum makes sense to me, is to see it like a bar. People walk in off the street, they don't know the etiquette, sometimes they behave badly and get kicked out. If they're persistant, they get banned.

There are regulars. The bar is called 'The Ex-Premie Bar'. The regulars are Ex-premies. Ex-premies opened the bar so they could meet other ex-premies here and talk. Not everyone gets on. Sometimes there are arguments.

We try to keep an atmosphere of openess, freedom of expression, and freedom from intimidation in here.

Although we are anti-cult, we do tolerate cult members posting here, as long as they remember their manners and are not disruptive.

It's common entertainment in the bar to watch premies wriggle with, and invariably avoid, difficult questions.

You don't have to go to every table and join in the conversation. You don't have to get involved in every fight. Things that get everyone riled up one week are completely fogotten about by the next week.

We're making it up as we go along.

Anth the Cyber-biscuit (I'll have a half and half please.)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 21:07:05 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: hmmm... We've discussed the bar thing before
Message:
and if it's a bar, I would be expecting knife or gunfights when people repeatedly call each other motherfucker in loud voices.

Analogies only go so far, anyway. Bars serve libations, sometimes food and sometimes entertainment. Here, you can read or post. Unlike a bar, lurking is totally acceptable.

Watch people squirm? I guess being lurker-friendly, it translates into the active aspect of posting that way. I wouldn't mind watching M or some PAM's squirm, but...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 18:22:27 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: This bar has one way mirrors....
Message:
so anyone can listen in on anyone else's conversation. You never know who's listening, or when they might join in. It is possible to frequent the bar and have no one ever know you were there. That is why the bar never turns a profit. Some people think it is part of the fun. Others vehemently want those one way mirrors removed and to have it become an exclusive type place where one can only join if he or she has been recommended by and approved by the other members.

I say both sorts of meeting places have their charm.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 18:56:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: No, no, it's not a bar ... the CULT's the bar wher
Message:
e Maharaji dosed us on the ultimate date rape drug.

This conversation here is simply one we're having in the lobby of the D.A.'s office, comparing notes, trying to figure out who'll testify, etc.

Naw, wishful thinking .....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 19:01:12 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Damn Jim you are always trying to scare the shit
Message:
out of those people you just KNOW are behind the one way mirrors!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 04:44:30 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Anth and Runamok +
Subject: Bar analogy extended to its logical(?) conclusion
Message:

Personally, for a number of reasons, I only go to a bar on rare occasions since around 1983. As a single woman living alone, whose friends are mostly married with children or at least with significant others, I sometimes crave conversation with like-minded people - which has always been difficult for me to find anywhere at any time. I continued to frequent this 'bar' after my initial questions were answered because I found that, unlike most bars, so many people here discuss issues and ideas that also interest me. In addition, I felt that with your involvement with meditation and 'spiritual paths' we shared some common ground - again, unlike the clientel found in most bars. I also thought that your experiences, especially after reading many of your Journeys, would translate into higher values and larger goals than the average bar-goer has - generally true.

The bar analogy holds up quite well in many ways, but what kind of bar do you want to frequent or host? What kind of clientel do you want to attract, keep, and hang out with?

In a real bar, people who are uncivil towards others, or disturb the ambience, are dealt with either publicly and privately, as I realize does to some extent happen here as well, but it's not the same as being able to speak face to face with the individual. It is also more difficult to nip aggressive behaviour in the bud in cyberspace particularly when we can't read each others faces and body language, and no one is necessarily 'around' or notices when 'damage' is done, especially in a generally 'rowdy' atmosphere. If someone is frequently uncivil (ie. intimidating or rude towards other patrons of the bar), they are usually shunned by the other patrons, and a newcomer is quickly clued in that this is not the norm.

I appreciate that some of you seem to want to make up for the sugary 'niceness' that seems to have been imposed upon you in the past, and release your anger and frustration about the negative impact that your experience with m has had on your lives. You rightly value your new found 'freedom of speech,' but does this mean the freedom to intimidate others into silence, temporary or permanent (seems contradictory to me!)? Despite my lack of 'Knowledge,' I will cautiously suggest that some of you, in obsessing about it in unconstructive ways at times, may be still focussed on m - action/reaction - not freedom, and continuing to let him drain you of your personal power.

I will add that although I have been encouraged to at least check out 'Knowledge' and draw my own conclusions, I have never had much interest in 'gurus' of the popular kind, and even less in a man who has not publicly apologised for documented 'errors' he has made in the past which have involved large numbers of good people. It shows a glaring lack of integrity for someone who has ever, even in his mis-guided youth, called himself 'GOD.' I wouldn't be interested in even doing a meditation workshop with such a man or any of his devotees/supporters.

Let me give you another analogy. As a teacher in public adult education for almost twenty five years, I have seen the atmosphere deteriorate into a shameful, futile, virtual total waste of tax-payers' money and individuals' futures because too many teachers and administrators have been intimidated into letting things go, out of fear of repercussions. I know that this is happening in many other spheres of education, and other contexts as well (road-rage?). Unaddressed, it spreads. I won't bother to go into the long-term ramifications of this trend, but I also know that prisons have an above average number of inmates who are illiterate and semi-literate.

The point being, that each and every individual has always had, and always will have, the freedom of choice to be on the side of 'good' or 'evil' in this 'battle' spanning centuries and millennia, first within him/herself, and by extension to every context and interaction within which s/he finds her/himself. We each have this freedom of choice to make in our thoughts, words and deeds. We have the freedom to contribute towards a better world, or watch it deteriorate into a 'seedy red-neck dive' a la 'Lord of the Flies' or, very unfortunately, much much worse.

(Please note, I don't frequent the Premie Palace, I find it boring and usually empty. But there is room for a little improvement here, at least at times, don't some of you think?)

Late Night Sunday Sermon over and out, preached from the case of 2-4 in the corner, eh.

Stonor


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 10:24:52 (GMT)
From: Dave
Email: vpost3@hotmail.com
To: Stonor
Subject: I am in agreement with you, Stonor
Message:
Good post there Stonor and I agree with much of what you say. There has been a certain 'dumbing down' of sections of our society in recent years. What side of the channel are you on, by the way? Your post could've been written by someone here in England and yet I believe you're in America.

My idea which I mentioned on The ANYTHING GOES Forum and which you respnded to, i.e. creating a web site which does something to address the plight of about 5,000 children who die each day due to malnutrition and preventable disease; well such an idea wouldn't be restricted to just this little part of cyber space.

I think the dumbing down which we see has been mainly caused by the media. The mass media, including advertising and mass cultures like sport and pop/rock music has tried to appeal to what it believes is the lowest common denominator in order to spread its influence to a widest possible audience.

It's this cynical attitude, that 'most people are morons' which has been a self fulfilling prophecy. But most people are not morons though and I think the pendulum will swing the other way soon. Society is reflecting who is shouting the loudest at the moment. Totally free and unrestricted media such as the internet will enable the great silent majority to finally have their say.

I am glad that you are having your say here and I hope you do not take any notice of any flak you get but just carry on, 'Telling it like it is' because you have much to contribute.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 05:13:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: A sarcastic response about 'intimidation'
Message:
boo!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 18:35:21 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A sarcastic response about 'intimidation'
Message:
So from where comes the ancient wisdom that says 'Don't say boo to a goose'?

HuH?

MEASURING UP

Despite acts of great heroism, three British soldiers returned
from the Falkland Islands without being decorated. Their
major called them into his Whitehall office to explain.

'Bit of a cock-up in the medals department, chaps,' he said,
'so the regiment has decided to give you ten pounds sterling
for each inch of measurement between any two parts of your
bodies. Private, which measurement for you?'

'Tip of me toes to the top of me head, - six foot - sah!'
- 'That's 720
pounds sterling. Well done, private. Next. Corporal?'

'Tip of one hand to the tip of the other, me arms
outstretched, sah!' - The major took the measurement. 'Six
feet, two inches... that's 740 pounds cash. Very good, corporal. Sergeant,
how about you?'

'Tip of me prick to me balls, sah!' - 'Very well. Drop your
trousers, then.'

The major put his tape measure at the end of the Sergeant's penis, then looked up and asked, 'Where are your balls, Sergeant?' -

'Goose Green, Falkland Islands, sah!'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 13:10:02 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A sarcastic response about 'intimidation'
Message:
Hey Jim,

You made me smile for the first time in a long time! 'I ain't afraid of no ghosts!' (sung with appropriate music of course).

Have a great week!

Stonor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 02:33:38 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: You squirm like the worm you are...
Message:
and if it's a bar, I would be expecting knife or gunfights when people repeatedly call each other motherfucker in loud voices.

Got anyone special in mind Runnyboy? No? Can I volunteer, you motherfucker?

Analogies only go so far, anyway. Bars serve libations, sometimes food and sometimes entertainment. Here, you can read or post. Unlike a bar, lurking is totally acceptable.

Brilliant, brilliant dissection of the issues here, Funboy. You're really on the cutting edge now. So when do I get the retraction and apologies for the three egregious LIES you told about me?

And uh Mr Composer, it IS perfectly acceptable to 'lurk' in bar if that means sitting quietly and minding your own business.

Watch people squirm? I guess being lurker-friendly, it translates into the active aspect of posting that way. I wouldn't mind watching M or some PAM's squirm, but...

Huh? but what? We supposed to read your mind here, asswipe?

You have no credibility. You should just shut up.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 04:58:10 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Projection?
Message:
Can't wait to read your response to my second-to-last post, if you can stomach reading it!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 15:49:04 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Projection?
Message:
Stonor responded:
Can't wait to read your response to my second-to-last post, if you can stomach reading it!

Could you be a little more specific on which post ? Maybe a title or cut and paste it here?

Is it the one about breast cancer? If it is, I agree. The other thing I avoid is SLS in shampoos.

I find colloidal silver to be an excellent underarm deodorant, btw. (at least I hope it is !!!)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 15:09:15 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: maybe dope and not booze for less fighting(nt)
Message:
Roll 'em
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 23:55:43 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: maybe dope and not booze for less fighting(nt)
Message:
I agree (although I've been drinking and smoking less and less due to certain other 'remedies' I've been taking ;-).

Ever read the Marijuana Papers ( edited by David Solomon,1966)? It's an academic text with a collection of studies on every related topic imaginable, including one commissioned by Mayor Koch of New York. Apparently he tried to recommend legalization for that reason, more or less, but it was squashed. The problem is, there's no big business money in it because people could grow their own. Drug trafficers aren't crazy about the idea for the same reason. It's all a big game. There was a great drama done by the BBC about 8 yrs ago on the heroine trade, I think it was called Traffik. I saw an example of this kind of thing first hand when I was in Lima, and some aquaintances of mine wanted to score some cocaine, and I went along for the ride and experience. We were brought to a dealer, but he was at the airport getting new supplies from the Peruvian Investigation Police's frequently 'bust'-renewed stock. And never try buying any 'drug' from a non - PIP-approved dealer in Peru (but don't ask me how to find one!). One of my favourite inter-language puns comes from PIP/pip, meaning a blow-job in French Canadian slang!

Apologies for swinging the thread off topic, but drinking is certainly a source of problematic reactions in many contexts, whereas I've never seen any comparable problems with dope. If you smoke too much, you just go to sleep.

And three cheers for what's-his-name Rebagliatti (sp?), one of the great mellow healthy Canadian pot-smokers from BC!

And remember, Stonor is one of my family's names!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 16:15:49 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Context is everything, Stonor
Message:
Stony: When was the last time a fight broke out at a wine tasting? Some of those folks can get pretty smashed, espcially if it is a public affair...... but, still no fights.

When my wife and I sit down to a nice 10 year old bottle of Calera Pinot Noir or nicely aged BV Georges De Latour Cabernet, fighting is something that just doesn't happen.

SET AND SETTING!

There are PLENTY of cases of dope-induced fighting, too. Remember, an asshole in normal life just becomes a bigger asshole when inebriated...... no matter which intoxicant is used. The 'asshole' attitude is the 'SET.' Place an asshole in a bar full of folks that just want to enjoy a night out and you still have an asshole. Bars do 'seem' to collect more than their fair share of assholes, though. However, when was the last time you saw a fight in a place that was referred to as a 'cocktail lounge?' Strange, huh?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 18:42:09 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Categorically so?
Message:
Hi Mike,

Did I really sound so categorical? I didn't think so! (And more important than set and settings are perhaps the characters, maybe less so the plot, at least in the real world!) Apart from the scientific studies I referred to, in my personal experience, alcohol is a much more negatively volatile inebriant.

Cheers!

Stonor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 15:48:21 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Or . . . (to Mike)
Message:
Or are you basically agreeing with me that the general atmosphere of Forum of V also contributes in a major way to some of the 'fights?'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 16:08:44 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Good question....
Message:
Stones: (I like your name..... easy to play with, without being insulting :-)

I think the only real reason that you see alcohol as a 'much more negatively volatile inebriant...' is because it's the one that is most prevalent AND it's the one that's legal! In other words, the vast majority of folks have it at their fingertips.... INCLUDING ALL ASSHOLES! he he he :-) I venture that MANY (if not most) assholes DON'T have ready access to the 'illegal' inebriants. Just a guess, but I'm sure you wouldn't notice much difference between asshole-varieties when/if pot is made legal. The BIGGEST (maybe only) difference would likely be that the asshole who's on pot wouldn't vomit on your shoes...... he he he :-)

As to the forum..... well, it may sound a bit patronizing or trite, but remember that this place collects those that are CONFRONTING their own personal involvement with a fraud. CONFRONTATION is the name of the game here. We challenge each other to 'confront' our own belief systems...... The environment of 'confrontation' can, unfortunately, spill over into other areas very easily! So, in a way, YES I agree that this environment DOES invite confrontation. In other words, anyone with half a brain should realize that interpersonal 'confrontation' are likely to occur here because the very same people are confronting THEMSELVES and challenging THEMSELVES, to THEMSELVES..... you know what I mean?

This place isn't about a minor-potatoes issue (at least, not to those it affects). There are some here who have been thru the wringer.... and back again. The self-confrontation and free-thinking are 'new' to some of these same folks. If someone steps up to the plate and 'gets in the way' of this, they can expect quite a 'blast' from the 'pitcher.' Confronting is confronting, whether it's self-confrontation or interpersonal. Sometimes, the attitude from one can spill over to the other (maybe to excess).

That was a good question, Stones..... I hope that I could shed a little more light on it (from MY perspective, anyway).

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 02:51:39 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: maybe dope and not booze for less fighting(nt)
Message:
Pot has 7 times the tar as tobacco does. Add the factors of smoking in without a filter AND sucking up as much smoke as deeply as possible, you're looking at the possibility of getting a pack of cigarette's worth of tar from a joint.

Recent studies link pot smoking to heart attacks in a dramatic way.

They do make gizmos that allow you to 'smoke' without smoking and cost around $30-50 bucks. I think the THC combusts without the leaf (via temperature) but I'm not sure.

Kava's not bad either (since herbs have come up also).

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 04:54:44 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: maybe dope and not booze for less fighting(nt)
Message:
Yes, but They aren't smoked with the chronic regularity that cigarettes are, and who commissioned the studies, and what other factors were taken into consideration? I don't buy it at face value. 'Research' is often highly manipulated, as has been well documented. What's your source? The other tip could be useful. What about water pipes? Kava as a substitute?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 05:20:50 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: maybe less tar and more herbals
Message:
Waterpipes give you 11% of the smoke, not bad, not perfect either though. If they cut down the THC values, you may be smoking a more to get stoned.

If you are really into your pot, look into one of those electronic devices. People who deal in smoke accessories are bound to know about them.

Sorry though, it's common sense to assume that large amounts of tar might cause serious problems (and possibly small amounts of it.

I came from a house filled with smoke and then smoked cigarettes for years. I can't afford the luxury of a little bit of tar.

Kava is pretty relaxing, as is valerian. Are they completely safe? I don't know but seem to be fairly safe- safer than smoking w/tar, I would think.

Valerian is easy to make tea out of. You can do it with cold water. Don't boil valerian if you do use hot water.

Melatonin helps sleep if that's what's desired and looks to be like a healthy supplement. Again, it's a judgement call because there aren't years of testing to allow for long term effects. But it doesn't get you stoned.

Tryptophan is off the market now but would give me a good buzz. There is a form of it on the market (actually a metabolite- a chemical that the body would produce out of the tryptophan), but I understand it to be unsafe.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 03:30:07 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Women on the forum
Message:
I have never felt marginalized as a forum member. Not at all. There are not as many women who post as men, but I would guess that the internet still is more the domain of men than women. When I first started posting there were hardly any women at all. There are a lot more now.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 20:58:29 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Women on the forum- per cents
Message:
The Internet was largely the domain of men but has gotten a lot closer to begin 50/50 within the last year or two. I think it was close to 60/40 last year.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 17:21:00 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Women on the forum
Message:
Hi Susan (and Stonor) -
I can't say that I have ever felt 'marginalized' on the forum because I am a woman, but I have felt that some people didn't take me seriously, and that some people were condescending to me. I do know a couple of women who have posted as gender-neutral, and they agree with me on this - they usually get more respect if they don't identify themselves as female.

However, as I said to Stonor earlier, this attitude is certainly not exclusive to this forum. I deal with it every day at work (I work in a male-dominated field), and in most casual interactions outside work (I live in the Southern US). I can't say that I like it very much, but I mostly accept it, except when it becomes truly flagrant.

Another factor here is that Maharaji's organization was extremely sexist - at least when I was involved. I don't know if this has changed over the years, but it certainly was true when I was a premie. Also, many many ex-premies on here have said that they felt that their emotional growth had been stunted when they were active premies - and this emotional growth includes learning how to deal with male-female relationships in a mature way. So many ex-premies have said that they feel like adolescents in 40 or 50-year-old bodies! I can relate to this (I guess most of us can), and so I tend to cut people some slack on this issue.

BTW, Susan, I also remember when there were very few women on this forum. I was the only ex-premie female who posted regularly for a while (I think you and Deena were taking a break). There ARE a lot more women who post regularly now, and I really appreciate that.

Take care -
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 18:54:52 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Women on the forum unite!
Message:
I just wanted to say that!

I generally feel I am treated with respect by the regulars. Now, some of premie snipers have sniped at me too, but I have not related that to gender.

With some of the subjects I have disussed I felt that even the resident premies who do troll duty and are normally nasty to all were a little more respectful.

But 100% DLM was a sexist organization. In numerous ways. I think the combination of Indian sexism with Western sexism really is worthy of a research paper.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 13:01:44 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Women on the forum
Message:
Hi Susan,

There are however, some men who sometimes post as women.

Antonia Delamore

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 16:14:41 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: yes, which lends credence to your bar analogy (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 02:33:13 (GMT)
From: Anarchist
Email: vpost3@hotmail.com
To: Stonor
Subject: The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum - get the bastard
Message:
Does anyone really care about whether premies leave Maharaji's fold or not? I couldn't give a damn myself. I don't lie awake at night worrying about those poor premies who might be suffering from a delusion.

I think if a person wants to see through the game that Maharaji has played and continues to play, then they'll ignore the crap and try to find out more about what really has happened. They'll look here and on related sites.

There's always been crap on these forums and also on the original alt.support.ex-cult where it started and then the alt.cult.maharaji later on. In the alt.support.ex-cult, we also had loads of Jesus freaks and Scientologists sharing the place.

A major incentive some people have, in participating here and elsewhere, is to get back at Maharaji. Redress the balance, so to speak. That can't be bad.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 00:13:13 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Stonor
Subject: The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum
Message:
There aren't any specific 'goals' for this forum other than to present a medium where people can discuss Maharaji. The personal goals of those who use it at any given time may appear to others as defining some general agenda, but there are many who have found the forum, posted here for a while, and moved on to other interests. Tomorrow may find a completely different group of people posting here, with a completely different mindset regarding Maharaji.

Your premie friend was treated as would be expected by people who do not agree with him, and your own change of perspective and opinion regarding the forum is the natural result of your own learning since you first found the forum.

I personally believe that the purpose of the forum is to give people a place to learn and practice some of life's less-publicised (but very binding) rules:

  • Other people aren't you, and you can't join them.
  • Think for yourself.
  • Learn from your own mistakes.
  • Don't look to anyone for agreement, approval or apologies.
  • Spend time with those you enjoy, and avoid the ones you don't.
  • The world will forget you after you've gone.
  • The only thing you take with you when you leave is the person you've become while you were here.

They apply to time spent in the forum as well.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 02:02:32 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum
Message:
Hey Brian, those are good rules. Did you make them up, assemble them from various places, or find them all in one place?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 16:16:53 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum
Message:
Hi Bobby - good to see you here!

As you may have guessed, Brian graduated summa cum laude from the School of Hard Knocks...that's where the rules came from.

Take care -
Love,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 16:41:19 (GMT)
From: bobby
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum
Message:
Hi Katie,

I went to that same school too. Seems I still haven't yet graduated though.

And Katie,
This week I completed an essay called Visionary Encounters through Cancer and Buddhism. (Part of my Master's thesis in the school of hard knocks.) Still gotta mark it up for my webpage, but if you, or anyone else reading this wants to read it, I'll send it up to you via email.

Good to see you too. This place is like that Star Wars bar. Remember that from the movie?

Love,

Bobby

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 17:04:09 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: bobby
Subject: The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum
Message:
Hi Bobby -
Yes, I would like to see it! Going to be changing my e-mail address soon (I will let you know), but if you send it in the next couple of days it will get here.

I know what you mean about the Star Wars bar - that was one of my favorite scenes in any of the Star Wars movies :).

Love,
Katie

P.S. Don't listen to Anth when he's in a non-serious mood (which is most of the time) - snicker.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 13:20:08 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: He copied them from 'The Little Book of Wisdom'nt
Message:
No Toast.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 16:43:31 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: He copied them from 'The Little Book of Wisdom'nt
Message:
Is that a joke Anth?

I realize I've been quite credulous at times, but the source could be 'real'. I did a search on 'the Little Book of Wisdom' and found some sources but didn't find the jokes.

We are all hallucinating.
Anyone who thinks they're not hallucinating is hallucinating.
That's a joke.
Not.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 11:46:49 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Yes, it was a joke (mumble mumble) nt
Message:
...well, it was late and...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 00:59:54 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: On first look
Message:
I visited this site about six months ago or so, but only briefly, because I did not have regular access to the net. I appreciated the info on the site but my brief visit to the Forum kind of made me doubt in the validity of the site; among other things.

Upon coming back though, and taking a longer look, I saw some excellent posts and learned much more. It may have had to do with my deeper doubts about M, I admit. Looking back, I realize that coming in cold I didn't even know which posts were from premies and which for exes.

Despite this, I can't imagine a way to solve that. The Forum intro states to hang around; I didn't.

Personally, I've come to see the conflicting opinions as a challenge to make sure I state myself as clearly as possible and don't go off half-baked.

The first time I posted I got some heavy conflicting opinions...but also supportive words. Both had their place, I think.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 22:22:12 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Good Post!
Message:
Great post, Daneane. Reading the arguments here certainly improved my ability to think about what I was writing. I became more able to recognise when opinions I had were based on solid foundations and when they were based on nothing. This was entirely due to the quality of a lot of the discussions here, even some of the heated ones.

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 00:34:49 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum
Message:
Hello Brian,

As you are the person who initiated this site, which I've most appreciated on a number of levels, let me take this opportunity to thank you for your work.

For the record, my premie e-email friend's post a couple of years ago had nothing at all to do with a disagreement of opinion, which is why it stood out. But that was not the point I was trying to make.

You seem to have misunderstood some of my post.

You wrote:

Tomorrow may find a completely different group of people posting here, with a completely different mindset regarding Maharaji.

Perhaps you aren't aware that I am not at all pro-m - to the contrary, and have received strong criticism from my premie friend for some of my posts here.

I choose to choose my own 'rules,' but thanks for sharing yours, some of which are also in my set.

Stonor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 11:46:06 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Stonor
Subject: The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum
Message:
Hi Stonor -

I didn't initiate this site, but am only the latest in a succession of webmasters here.

You seem to have misunderstood some of my post.
You wrote:

Tomorrow may find a completely different group of people posting here, with a completely different mindset regarding Maharaji.

Perhaps you aren't aware that I am not at all pro-m - to the contrary, and have received strong criticism from my premie friend for some of my posts here.

I wasn't commenting on the views you have regarding Maharaji. What I was trying to say is that a completely different group of ex's using the forum at some other time might all believe that Maharaji isn't all that bad. They wouldn't react with hostility to premies and recent ex's who posted views along that current 'party line'. And they would appear to have different 'goals' regarding the forum.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 01:55:40 (GMT)
From: AOA Ji
Email: None
To: comment
Subject: The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum
Message:
I didn't initiate this site, but am only the latest in a succession of webmasters here.

The Perfect Webmaster never dies!


:)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 01:50:28 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: stonor770@netscape.net
To: Brian
Subject: PS to Brian
Message:
Must have clicked the 'skip preview' box by mistake.

'some of which are also in my set.' should have read 'all of which are already in my set.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 22:13:33 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum
Message:
Take it or leave it - I have no vested interest in homeopathy,

I agree with everything you've said re the forum. BTW I was born in 1956 and I had a natural birth (at home) and my mother used homeopathy on me and my brother. I think it is generally respected as being one of the most valid 'alternate' medicines around. Anyone one teases someone for their interest in homeopathy is a sad case.

I confess that my brood were all born in hospital and we tend not to reach for the homeopathy ourselves, which is a bit odd since I come from a line of natural medicine enthusiasts. My fathers' mother (1866-1957 ) was a suffragette, a vegetarian and bicycle rider, which I believe was unusual in those days!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 22:45:59 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Some thoughts on why the forum is the way it is.
Message:
The general tone of this forum is the sum of those who take part. Isn't it that simple?

If more people join in with friendly civility then the balance tips in their favour. If a bunch of hostile angries use this place to exercise their frustrations then the balance tips their way. Anything in between effects the balance too.

If people want it to be nicer - then join in and make it so!

Basically if people just read the crap and are put off joining in then probably they don't have too much personaL motive to join in anyway, because actually amongst the posts from those who choose to fight here there are many warm expressions, some very intellectual ones, some highly humorous ones and some very clear ones. Quite a rich tapestry I would say.

I confess I experimented with being confrontational and nasty for a while (as Bobby will remember) but I quickly realised that it didn't work as well in cyberspace as in my experiments at home within my immediate social group! I think this is because people have to know you a bit in order to trust that you are not actually a really nasty piece of work and that you are just using nasty language for fun and you don't really mean any harm.

I agree with Stonor in that I wish less people would be aggressive because I don't think that it needs 'aggression' to make the points that need to be made about M and Knowledge. Also I don't like it that the reputation of this site should be one of being a 'nest of vipers'. However I really acknowledge there is a place for anger. What irritates me no end is that people choose to bicker about things that, in my opinion, would be more appropriately discussed in private emails. Their petty battles leap into the top of the list with great thread titles.As if they were the least topical to the Maharaji issue! Nice to see that the people that run the forum have some control over this though.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 16:56:39 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Some thoughts on why the forum is the way it is.
Message:
Dear Anon -
You wrote:
The general tone of this forum is the sum of those who take part. Isn't it that simple?

If more people join in with friendly civility then the balance tips in their favour. If a bunch of hostile angries use this place to exercise their frustrations then the balance tips their way. Anything in between effects the balance too.

If people want it to be nicer - then join in and make it so!

I agree with this (and you stated it very well, as usual!) The forum is a dynamic system and it goes through cycles of hostility and civility depending on the mood of the people who post here and people's reactions to their posts.

Although some people disagree with me, I don't think it's possible to legislate the tone or overall feeling of the forum except by posting the kind of posts you personally would want to see here. I also think that the 'tone' of the forum varies between threads - as you pointed out. It sometimes surprises me that it's possible for one group of people to be having a loud argument in one thread while another group a quiet discussion in another thread, and yet another group is making jokes in another thread. As Anth said, it's like a bar, and as you once said, it's like a party.

I also wish the forum didn't have such a bad reputation, but I do think (actually, I KNOW) that this reputation is exaggerated by certain people who may not want others to feel comfortable reading or posting on the forum.

Take care, Anon -
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 17:40:47 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Some thoughts on why the forum is the way it is.
Message:
The forum is a dynamic system and it goes through cycles of hostility and civility depending on the mood of the people who post here and people's reactions to their posts.

Well said, Katie. I don't think there's anything about the forum that needs changing, not a thing. Not as long as the people are being themselves and using it as a means to help themselves (and others if the spirit so moves them) in dealing with time spent in the cult.

If there IS anything I'd change about the forum, it would be a little less moaning and groaning from certain exes that don't like the way people conduct themselves. But if they feel a need to groan, fine. I just read the first sentence or two of most posts anyway (such as the groaner's ones), unless I find myself interested where I'm compelled to read more. I suggest that the groaners do the same thing. There's no rule that says you have to read every word.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 21:27:39 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum
Message:
Good post Stonor,

I'm one of those who hasn't been around the ex-premie forum but was very involved some time ago. It seems to me that this environment sustains some very hostile points of view. Generally speaking I don't feel comfortable here.

As for negativity, even as a premie I felt that I needed to deal with the negativity. I learned that I couldn't change others but could only change the way I dealt with it myself. I still work with this stuff, in some very different but effective ways.

I'm very interested in post-Maharaji spirituality. I find that spirituality works for me. My spirituality, Buddhism, includes full investigation into the way it is, and really works for me. It doesn't work for me to talk about it here though, other than to mention that probably a great many ex-premies have come to terms meaningfully with their lives in other ways than are 'acceptable' posts to this forum.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 17:48:58 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: The Ultimate premie fear: NEGATIVITY
Message:
God, how many times have I heard that from uptight, repressed, premies? The email from your 'friend' exudes that. Oh my god! What if you discuss Maharaji and his cult in an UNCONTROLLED environment? Heavens, it might be unpleasant, you might have to read posts you don't like, or don't have the appropriate attitude. Better to go over to one of the Maharaji cult websites that not only do not allow open discussion of anything, also censor that which does not fit the cult line. And on Maharaji's site, he gets away with blatant lies, many of which have been pointed out here, and no one can say anything about it.

Look, this is the nature of the world. There are people and views in it you might not like. But it's a whole lot better than living a repressive lie, which is what being a premie requires. If there are posts here you don't like, don't read them. You are an adult, after all. I also don't like some of the stuff that gets posted here either, but unless there is a threat or something, people have the right to say it. That's the nature of free speech and there isn't a thing you can do about it.

Still, this website does a lot of good. There have been scores of people who were premies and are now ex-premies as a result of it. It also allows some of us who feel like we said and did things in the cult that we aren't proud of, to say things for the record, and hopefully help others get out.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 22:38:47 (GMT)
From: AOA Ji
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The Ultimate premie fear: NEGATIVITY
Message:
Besides, it's important just to say that it is a cult.

A few years before this site went online, I did a quite thorough search on Maharaji on the Internet. Very little. One small investigative piece, reported third-
hand (someone in Australia mentioned having seen it or
what-have-you) and that Rada Swami (sp not even
close) research paper site.

There sure as hell weren't any premies or ex's for
that matter who were 'out' then. Not on the Net.

I believe this site changed all that. If it did nothing
else, it may've pressured Maharaji to go online, which
will be part of his undoing. Because then the trapped
premies have to go online to access it, and there's
the problem: free speech, and a lot of willingness to
tell another side to the story.

Premies were afraid to read books.

There are cautionary tales in literature about the
rewriting of history by those who wish to change the
perception from factual to propaganda. I think setting
the record down here is vastly important, especially
the documentary stuph that Jean-Michel and others
are doing. If enough people are archiving this, then
history can't be erased. I never figured that part
out: Maharaji must've known he was documenting his
own cult: why take such a risk?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 17:23:15 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum
Message:
Stonor:

It's not a very good place to come for support, especially if you're entertaining notions about M as a benevolent and well meaning humanitarian. But, perhaps the 'support' part of the mission is poorly realized, at best. Exiting a cult can be a wrenching experience, and sometimes the attitudes of Exes reminds me of the intolerance shown to smokers by those who've quit. They *know* it can be done, so are intolerant of anything that looks like an excuse.

As for whether 'nice' concepts are tolerated. This is a forum about Maharaji, and frequently 'nice' means 'tolerant of M's trip' even though he has never expressed one iota of responsibility for anything, at any time. If you want to make nice about M, this ain't the place. And regarding intolerance for New Agey stuff, it's just a reflection of the fed-upness of the larger society. I'm sure there's some truth in some of that stuff, but I want to see it treated a bit more rigorously.

Anyway, I agree that people express more incivility here than they should, or than is required by the mission. Sometimes I just get bored with the whole thing and take a break for a few months. But it's nothing compared to some of the political forums I belong to. The most civil, and rewarding forum for me has been one on recumbent bicycles. Just don't bring up the subject of helmets, or whether Presta or Schraeder valves are better. You can be labeled a fascist before you know what hit you.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 17:14:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Imagine discussing this shit WITHOUT sarcasm?
Message:
'I have little interest left in the kind of 'freedom' I have to post here and be freely attacked or sarcastically put down for saying, or trying to discuss what I think, feel, have read or experienced.

Stonor,

Funny how new-agers consider sarcasm the worst horseman of the apocalypse. Obviously, people whose ideas came in the soft way are going to be a little apprehensive and over-protective in the face of it. But this is a forum where there are no sacred cows and all sorts of new-age ideas get challenged and ridiculed. So what? Are your ideas really such hothouse flowers?

As for your comments regarding women being 'marginalized' here and all, that's absurd. Don't you know that every Tuesday is Ladies' Night? Tuesday evenings they get in free and can post whatever they want. They can talk amongst themselves and everything. Sorry no one told you.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 18:33:28 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim you are an idiot sometimes
Message:
but why do I continue to like you? guess I am an idiot sometimes.
Stoner this place is rocky and bumpy. It is. That is all I have to say.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 16:55:47 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: glyng@techline.com
To: Stonor
Subject: The goals of the Ex-Premie Forum
Message:
Well Stonor, you can be a bit of a snit sometimes, yourself. Whatever the lofty goals of this forum maybe, we all fall victim to the common human foibles.

I missed the discussion on homeopathy, something of which I nothing. Here's one for you: colloidal silver. A great non toxic disinfectant and over all tonic. I drank a twelve ounce glass of 3ppm silver in distilled water the other day when I felt all the symptoms of a cold or flu coming on. It knocked it right out. Of course i've used it topically with excellent results. Just don't confuse it with silver proteins or other non-colloidal forms. They can build up in your body (because of the large partical size) and turn your skin a lovely and permanent gray. Repeat: colloidal silver is safe and effective.

There's a goofy 'debunking' of it (of course) at www. quackwatch.com but they've got it all wrong and don't even note (or know) the differences between the two types.

If anyone in North American would like some I'll send it to you post haste. I make it at home for pennies a gallon.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 13:37:45 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Drinking Silver
Message:
gerry,

if you start drinking that stuff you'll set off every metal detector you go near, and you'll be able to wipe a hard disk from two meters.

Try Newcastle Brown Ale, Carlsberg Special Brew, or Glaswegian Tonic Wine- you don't notice a cold after a few pints of any of them.

Anthoholic

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 10:31:29 (GMT)
From: trixie
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Homeopathy is not new agey
Message:
but Jim wouldnt know that. He is a Republican.
It has been refreshng to read this thread and see that there is intelligent life out there.

If one comes into the forum on a bad day, it can appear to be a bunch of neurotic hungover riff raff.

However, over time I have gained insight about some people. This happens when you read a persons posts that range from sarcastic
babble to true interaction.

I like what you said about Homeopathy. People talking against it makes as much sense to me as someone saying Motown isnt good music. You cant really help those people.

Rather than feeling that women are marginalized here, I would say that the so called regulars have a clique consciousness that is under the illusion that it is intimidating. I think it is not intimidating, just takes up alot of discussion space.
A sarcastic or cynical remark is a tool to abort a train of thought.
Although some are hilarious, if used carelessly, I think the effect is that we lose out on some good discussions like this thread.

Take care
T.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 22:45:26 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: trixie
Subject: Jim a REPUBLICAN?????? NOT!!!!!!
Message:
If you got THAT from his posts, you really are not doing too well in the interpretation department. Not only that, he's canadian! I haven't read his response, yet, but I would bet that this stuff is in there.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 05:37:21 (GMT)
From: Trixie
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Jim a REPUBLICAN?????? NOT!!!!!!
Message:
Hes Not?
I might be confusing his occasional stubborn redneckedness!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 15:30:29 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Trixie
Subject: I'M the stubborn redneck.....:-) (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 15:24:34 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Trixie
Subject: forum Rebuplicans (nt)
Message:
There are only three people I picked up on being potential Republicans.

Myself, Gerry and Mike. I intend to unregister myself as a Republican and become an independant. But I am certainly not a Democrat. I used to be though. I vote for many Democrats and I cross party lines on so many issues that I think independant is what I am. I am not sure about Gerry and Mike either. Maybe they will tell you.

I do not think Jim is the least bit Republican. And I have known many 'rednecks' and he certainly isn't that. I think you could learn a lot about yourself if you examine how you came to have these ideas.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 15:43:38 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: a forum Republicans
Message:
Susan: I tend to agree, but I haven't found a democrat that's 'in the center' for a long, long time. Senator McCain is about as close to someone in the middle that I've seen in quite awhile. I think he could have been a conservative democrat or liberal republican..... that puts him just about in the middle. Strangely (or maybe not so strangely), that made him VERY popular with independents.

Of course, you know one of MY major peaves, so I tend to be a single-issue voter on THAT issue. Of course, that would apply to any attempt to change the meaning of ANY amendment without the mandated constitutional convention. The 'second' just happens to be the fashionable one to pick on these days. After all, it's the root of all evil..... he he he :-) Ok, ok, I'll let it go.

On many issues, I tend to be pretty middle-o-the-road. Depends on the issue, though.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 17:24:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: trixie
Subject: Wrong on two fronts
Message:
I like what you said about Homeopathy. People talking against it makes as much sense to me as someone saying Motown isnt good music. You cant really help those people.

That's a terrible analogy. 'Good music' can't be anything but a subjective call. Saying that homeopathy is effective beyond the placebo effect is statement that is either true or false. Moreover, homeopathy's been tested in several proper scientific studies (i.e. rigorous and double-blind protocols) and has never been vindicated as a cure.

A sarcastic or cynical remark is a tool to abort a train of thought.
Although some are hilarious, if used carelessly, I think the effect is that we lose out on some good discussions like this thread.

Sarcasm is an appeal to reasonableness. It's a reminder that some might question the reasonableness of what's being said. Big fucking deal. The only time it's a problem for anyone is when they're trying to protect unreasonable ideas. If someone questions the reasonableness of something you say and you know they're wrong, the joke's on them. Again, big fucking deal.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 17:52:53 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Wrong on two fronts
Message:
Agree with you Jim. I wasn't even going to post my disagreement but I agree.

I have to deal with a lot about alternative medicine, homeopathy, herbs, therapeutic touch, hypnobirthing.....it is an endless list. I struggle endlessly with people who will not take as much as a tylenol while pregnant ( it's a DRUG!) but will smoke pot, take any herb the herbalist recommends, and use homeopathic remedies freely. Natural is not synomymous with better. Natural is not synonmymous with safe. Many natural things are very unsafe. And, nothing is more natural than death. Lest I sound like nurse Wratchet, I certainly do think that mainstream medicine and nursing has huge room for criticism itself. The thing is, so do most people involved in it. We have mechanisms in place to try to improve, to catch our errors, and every textbook changes as we admit the way we used to do it may not have been the best way, and we try to adhere to having a scientific basis for what we do. Everyone has met a doctor with a God complex, everyone has dealt with a person in a hospital who does things because 'that is how we have always done it', but those people are not adhering in the least to what their professions are supposed to be about.

I am very invested in the scientific method and research as guidance for what we believe in regards as to best keep our bodies healthy. Though it is very hard in many areas of medicine and nursing to design research and studies which eliminate the variables needed to truly see if what we are doing is effective when you are dealing with real live human beings and the ethics that involves.

Sarcasm does exactly what you say. But a lot of people are immune to sarcasm. It may be the caveat of using it to a general audience. Some human beings just can't get sarcasm. Some people think in a very literal and cncrete way and I think they cannot learn to go beyond it. Having raised children into adolescence I have observed that up until a certain age kids DO NOT get sarcasm, or being facetious, ( sounds nicer ), and to use it with them is cruel. They feel made fools of, they don't trust you and are hurt. Then somewhere in late childhod early adolescence this light goes on and they GET IT. They become these incredibly sarcastic little beings. They delight in using it.

I think for some people that switch never goes off. And, the best clue to sarcasm is intonation, which you lose on the net, so those who are challenged this way are even at a bigger disadvantage when it is used in written form. Also, people who are afraid and under a lot of stress sometimes don't get it. Many times I have seen that if I make a facetious point here that it is taken seriously by a recent ex and I am apologizing all over myself. I attribute that to the stress and fear they are experiencing as they face the cult with open eyes. So I think sarcasm does belong here, but it does need to be used carefully, and often even labeled clearly.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 22:53:12 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Hey Susan.... maybe an herbalist
Message:
Maybe an herbalist will recommend an infused tea made from strychnos nux vomica for trixie.......

No trixie, herbs aren't automatically good for you. If you read the scientific name of the plant above REALLY carefully, you would realize that thisis the HERB that strychnine comes from. Herbs are good, herbs are good..... just keep repeating that to yourself.

Susan.... well said! Many herbs and so-called natural medicines contain some VERY dangerous chemicals in addition to the 'desired' chemical. Personally, I don't take it unless I know what ALL of the side effects are..... whether they are from natural sources or are synthetic. Personally, if I needed 'digitalis' for my heart, I would want the purified substance that doctors prescribe as opposed to the 'raw' material from a foxglove plant (where it comes from). Why? Dangerous variations in the potency of any particular plant. Of course, if we are talking about placebos, then I guess it doesn't matter if it's natural or synthetic..... he he he :-)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 03:45:21 (GMT)
From: trixie
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Susan - Jim -My two cents on the Two fronts
Message:
Susan
Re homeopathy, I agree that many people border of fanatic with it and hypnobirthing ect ect.
However I never would reccommend an exclusive homeopathic approach. That would not be practical or safe.

I do not say it is a cure. But it can be effective in managing certain conditions.

By homeopathic medicine, I am refering to pharmecutical grade preparations perscribed by a doctor, not a naturopath. There are physicians that are trained in homeopathic medicines - though they are few and far between.

As for sarcasm, in my experience it can be a diologue habit- which also becomes a reflex of the thinking or observations.
It is also used in verbal fencing in order to fragment conversation
.
Teenagers pass through this and it can be painful when they realise that they have become reliant on sarcasm or cynicism-
because it can be so ingrained that when one is speaking to someone that is NOT on the sarcasm wave length, the communication flounders, or worse 'your not cool enough'. When it finally dawns on them what they are doing, it also highlights thier insecurities.

For people that use it from habit, it comes across as a emotional handicap often stemming from a dysfunctional adolescence or dare we say it- suspended emotional developement sometimes common to cult members.

The extensive use in it in TV sitcoms should give a clue.

Trixie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 05:02:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: trixie
Subject: Susan - Jim -My two cents on the Two fronts
Message:
1) Any effort to dress homeopathy up to look presentable is futile. It was a bizarre, but imaginative, hypothesis of Mr. Hanuman and would never have made it past the first double blind trials if he thought of it today. The rest is smoke.

2) Sure, teenagers are sarcastic a lot. They're also horny a lot. What does that tell you? Right. Nothing.

Sarcasm is an esseential element of any discussion wiht people who claim, for example, that 'I am God' doesn't mean 'I am God' or any of the other silly things premies think. Don't talk about sarcasm in general. Give examples. Show me where someone was sarcastic here and it was all wrong, drove someone into deep depression and back into the cult. Don't buy it myself.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 08:10:17 (GMT)
From: Trixie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Confessions of an Addict: Parables Ch 17 vs 1-5
Message:
Hi Jim

Time to confess that I used to be a highly accomplished sarcasm expert. You may have seen some of it leak into some of my posts.

It started in high school and I was trained by the experts at the equivalant of BH high. So this is part of my CV.
Later, I continued my art through a couple of spouses and very effectively nagged them into the grave.

Even when I found the Lud - it didnt blunt my tounge.

It was in later years that I was getting very worried about my teenager's tendency that I woke up to my own 'problem'
so I decided to try to do without it. I had to because I found that I was not taken seriously when I really wanted to be, and also people were gaurded when they really wanted to open up to me. I was not trusted like I wanted to be and one reason for it was my sarcasm or cronic cyicism. (cant spell that)

So I just quit cold turkey :-)).
Now that I am cured I allow myself to cut loose - usually when I am mad. I am still very very good at it.

But I can see on the forum how it effects people.
Premies are usually to self absorbed to be effected by it very much. As for exs, to me any ex has the privilege of holding ANY point of view different from mine- on just about anything- because they have passed through fire and become an EX.

Except for you of course

so I cannot give you examples right now, too lazy to go into archives.

I have a theory that bright people use sarcasm because they are bored with themselves or others. AND THEY DO NOT HAVE MUCH PATIENCE WITH OTHER PEOPLE'S PROCESSES. There is also a need to be the center of attention.

here is where you disagree

go
;)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 04:45:17 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: trixie
Subject: excellent points Trixie
Message:
I especially liked the suspended adolesence one...I've seen that.

When I was in nursing school we had class I cannot recall the title of. It was like, different cultures and healing, and alternative medicine. A homeopath came to our class and explained it as best she could to us. I didn't get the feeling there was nothing good in it. I was very interested. I tend to like to explore different ideas. I liked the class a lot. We learned the healing beliefs of a lot of different cultures and they were fascinating and important to know. The alternative people as well were all really interesting and make you think. This class was required. Don't you think that is a step in the right direction?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 07:47:52 (GMT)
From: trixie
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: steps in right direction
Message:
Hi Susan

What you say about the class in your training sounds familiar.
I think that Doctor and Nurse training will have to encompass an understanding of both sides of the fence.

Currently I act as a liason between patients and doctors- representing people with disabilitys (mostly ME and CFS).

This role is to work with the doctor to incorporate nutritional supplements into the patients treatment. We use pharmecutical grade supplements- because most supplements are merely food grade and not as precise.

Often this means a combination of antioxidants and minerals along with an target antioxidant or antidepressant until the patient stabilises. For example St Johns Wort is not effective until a certain level of cell function is established.

It is interestng because the doctors have related that in all of thier training, most of them only recieved 45 minutes of classes about nutrition.
Hence, patients with lifestyles/income that result in irregular nutrition, have no uderstanding from their GP about nutritional supplements.

Altough I am not a nurse, I work with nurses/doctors that say that their experience in IC has led them to actively seek a way to avoid some of the things they have had to deal with over the years. So much of the time it is lifestyle in combination with pre disposition that ends people up in the hospital.

The reliance on Steroids and Antibiotics is a prime example of their frustration.

As for home birth, it is quite the norm in most places. When I was having my children, I would never have occurred to me to have them in the hospital unless there was a good reason.

Even though homeopathics is my medicine of choice for the most part, my life has been saved more that once by conventional medicine. It is funny that now in the work I am doing, I run into very heavy prejucie against nutritional supplements by people involved in alternative medicine. And often they are the ones that need antioxidants and minerals the most. For people
of the 60 and 70s liver damage is the rule rather than the exception.

Present company excluded of course!

Even though your post is OT, it was very nice to hear something about your work.

Take care
Trixie


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 16:28:11 (GMT)
From: Mash Potato Liver Man
Email: None
To: trixie
Subject: Uh, trixie, some tips please
Message:
About that liver thing--which supplements can you recommend?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 19:51:15 (GMT)
From: trixie
Email: extrixie@hotmail.com
To: Mash Potato Liver Man
Subject: Uh, trixie, some tips please
Message:
Sure, but I would need some information from you.
Supplements need to be cross-checked with conditions/medications and depending on if the mashed potato has old butter mixed in, you may need a staggered program. :-))

We need to do this via email
Trixie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 01:24:51 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Categorical statements can stifle freedom ofspeech
Message:
Thank you for your most thoughtful post. You have raised many good points.

One of the problems with cyberspace is that conversations go on piecemeal and no one dropping in on one could be expected to go back and find all the relevant threads. As well, it is much more time consuming than being able to talk with someone face-to-face, because misunderstandings cannot be clarified as they happen and lead in many other directions before this can, if ever, be done.

My original point in the first post above, was that the manner in which my sharing was attacked by someone who asked me for information about homeopathy, and who had no personal knowledge or experience of it, temporarily shut down my ability to discuss it further. This type of interaction is hardly conducive to the effective and ongoing exchange of information between people, and is hardly a healthy example of 'free speech' (which it seems to be excused as), but rather its opposite - control through intimidation.

I won't repeat what I've already said in other posts in this thread, but add that alternative medicine cannot always be equated with 'new age,' whatever that is construed to be. Homeopathy was developed a few centuries ago, and was very much in use in NA - there was a Homeopathy Hospital in Montreal, until the 'modern' medical establishment decided to threaten any doctors withthe loss of their license if they practiced it, which is probably how/why it slipped out of Anon's life. This was not the case in Europe, where there is far more of both an ongoing tradition of homeopathy, as well as greater professionalism. All competent homeopaths and other alternative medicine proponents agree that this is needed in NA.

In fact it is well acknowledged that modern medicine is discovering many of its new treatments from herbal remedies thousands of years old. The aspirin you mention is one of them, and at the same time indicates the greatest weakness of 'modern' medicine - it has become big business, with a lot of financial, and therefore also political clout. The company that first put the Bayer Cross on these tablets originally created weapons for chemical warfare in WWI and/or II. Research is expensive, and the financial interest isn't there for new proofs of these older medicines for many reasons. My homeopath was a registered nurse most of her life and still is, because she needs the income. She knows first-hand where the limits of homeopathy, as well as modern medicine are.

Another example of non-new age alternative medicine is acupuncture/acupressure. My acupressurist is an old man trained by his father in Hong Kong. Western medicine couldn't even identify what one of the conditions I had about 10 years ago was, and offered me exploratory surgery. He showed it to me in a book and I had fifty percent relief after the first treatment. After maybe eight more over time, it hasn't recurred. I passed on this particular experience to my gynocologist who was amazed at how my mysterious condition had disappeared. His wife is German, and practices some alternative medicine I have never tried. He confided (out of fear of the medical establishment) to me, that the night before he was scheduled for major back surgery, his friend dragged him to an acupressurist or something like that, and instead of being on the operating table, he was out playing golf the next day. Most Eastern medicine practitioners also readily say that the greatest strength of western medicine is surgery (which I have also benefited from), but it too has become big business in too many cases.

These issues are extremely large and complex, and as I've said, I have no vested interest in alternative medicine except to bear witness, acknowledge and pass on what may be of help to someone else. This is not my field, nor certainly is it Jim's nor Joey's. I am curious about what your field of work and/or interests is Susan. I am a teacher. I could provide you with many more examples, but I have time constraints. I wanted to soften my first response, which was written primarily to Jim, but as you aligned yourself with him, you ended up being similarly addressed, and I apologize for that. I encourage you, and anyone else, to do a bit of research and perhaps explore some of these options should the need and opportunity arise, as thankfully both did for me, for the benefits I receive continue.

Stonor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 05:31:30 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: you want to know about me? (ot)
Message:
I have gone from being utterly anonymous to the point I may as well post my phone number.

I am a RN and have been for 12 years now. I have always been a labor and delivery nurse. Right now, I have a really exciting new part time job as a clinical nursing instructor in OB. I have two teens and a two year old, since the two year old was born I have not worked full time. I am so glad I have been able to stay home with him this time is so short and precious.

Because I spent my adolescence as a premie I must say I had an odd perspective on a lot of things. Obviously, the norm among the premies at that time was alternative type medicine, especially when it came to birth. Even though by the time I had my first child I was an ex I still liked a lot of what I had learned about birth and babies from my premie friends. And I still do. So I did the Bradley thing and loved it so much I felt I had found a calling and became a Bradley teacher. My second child was born at home with two CNMs. It was a good experience too. At this point I wanted to become a nurse midwife and it gave me a lot of needed direction. But my inital grip on the alternative childbirth movement was right after I became an ex. And I approached it in a very cult like manner I am sad to say. Not that I was alone, there are others that get cultish about it. But I certainly was pretty dogmatic in my thinking that I had found the RIGHT way for women to birth and that if only we could share the secret...have you read Immaculate Deception? I sort of just accepted all Suzanne Arms had to say as the truth without examination.

So I went to nursing school. I did very well :) It helped me so much to undo a lot of the cult damage of my adolescence because how it derailed me educationally was my biggest regret.

And I got hired straight to L+D which is unusual but I had done all I could to make them feel I was a good investment. Those first couple of years were a fascinating time. Because I became a part of the 'medical establishment' and what I discovered was pretty much what I said in my post and what is in that link about home birth. I found the 'establishment' to be a lot more open to change and suggestion and self examination than I ever found the lay midwifery community or Bradley people. You see every day that you aren't perfect. You try to do your best. Things are always changing. People are always questioning you. People come in refuse things. There are much bigger evils in the world than a mom who wants a home birth. Seeing people who don't get prenatal care or abuse crack while they are pregant puts that right into perspective.

I see good and bad uses of alternatives. The herb thing gets me. I think herbs are drugs as far as pregnancy goes and that they should be used and looked at that way. You just cannot be too careful. But a lot of alternative stuff has become sort of the norm where I work. We are seeing some of the hypnobirthing moms do really well. ( I have heard too of some it seems to work not at all for ) . We encourage moms to labor in the jacuzzi ( years ago this would have been bizarre. Our rooms are filled with brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles , gramas etc and we get used to not being in control and working around the family.

Anyway, I think I have this sort of unique perspective having been a part of both the alternative culture and the 'establishment'. I am really glad I have as I know it makes me a better nurse. But I am critical of some of the alternative health movement in that they do seem to lack the desire to apply the same scrutiny to themselves as they do the the 'enemy' the medical establishment.

So, one thing I got out of being in the cult was this start in birth and the unique perspective. Oh, and I got to see lots and lots of people breastfeed and I think that is part of why it came so easily to me.

My husband is an OB/GYN. So I have a little of his perspective too, and that was an eye opener as well.

But all in all, I wish I had never heard the words 'Jai Satchitanand' , but I did, and that was my life, and I am always trying to learn what I can from my life.

Did you read my journey? It is under Gmom too.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 02:26:41 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: the breastfeeding nazis (OT)
Message:
Hi Susan,
Great post. We've talked about this before and I agree with you. I have seen women shunned because they didn't want to or couldn't breast feed. SOme of them had bad experiences with La Leche League. Lots of guilt trips. Bottom line is if it is a choice to breastfeed and go insane or bottle feed--better to do the latter. I know all the bennies of breastfeeding from my doula days ( I did everything a lactation consultant would do except be paid the money they make). And I breastfed my kid with no problems. But not every woman has an easy experience of it with breastfeeding and I don't think they should be made to feel like a pile of shit if they can't or don't want to do it!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 03:16:01 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: The formula nazis? both are extremes
Message:
There is obviously less support for those that breastfeed than those that don't. Women who breastfeed are shunned in most mainstream cultures. Formula is 'pushed' not only here in the hospitals, but in the third world as well. Why do people always cite a couple of extreme 'examples' and trash something? I really don't get it. La Leche is all volunteers - started by women who care about the value of breast feeding on many levels, especially for the child. And you compare them to NAZIS??!! Talk about hate propaganda. I guess Mother Nature is a Nazis too, according to you. Helen, honestly, think before you post a subject, or say anything like that about any group of people.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 22:16:38 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: The formula nazis? both are extremes
Message:
I agree with you that companies like Nestle shouldn't be pushing their formula in third world countries. But I believe whether or not to breastfeed is a personal decision. In my profession I have seen women subjected to alot of guilt/trama if they didn't breastfeed. I know women who couldn't breastfeed because they had had chemo and it had affected their milk gland reflexes, and I have worked with women who were on strong anti-depressants because of severe postpartum depression. They desperately wanted to breastfeed but couldn't. People should not even ask a postpartum woman if she is breastfeeding because she may not be able to for some reason. It is personal and none of their business.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 01:54:06 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Stonor/Susan
Subject: The formula nazis? both are extremes
Message:
One reason this breastfeeding issue sticks in my craw is that just because a mother engages in the behavior of breastfeeding does not necessarily mean she is a good parent. Unfortunately, that seems to be the implication today. Good parenting--responding to a baby, and supporting a child's development-- can happen without that particular behavior. Granted, breastfeeding has great health benefits, I won't quibble with that. But a child who is loved and supported will thrive without having been breastfed, by the same token, a child might be breastfed and not get his or her emotional needs met and have lifelong problems.

The trauma that I have witnessed in women who are unable to breastfeed is overcome when they realize that holding and touching their baby, skin to skin contact, gazing into baby's eyes, in essence, falling in love with their baby, can happen whether they breastfeed or not and they are just as much a mother as one who breastfeeds.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 19:31:09 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Stonor and Helen
Subject: zealots (ot)
Message:
I am breastfeeding my two year old as I type, just thought you'd want to know that.

Stonor, I all the sudden found my life was dragging me away from the computer and I want to go back and reread all your posts so we can be 'on the same page' ( I despise that expression).

But indeed, in some circles, the breastfeeding 'nazi' term is used. Nazi is of course not the best choice, but I have heard it plenty and used it myself. But there are zealots.

In my community I am very proud to say that the pendulum has swung to the extreme that moms who don't breastfeed are a very small minority. In fact, at the hospital where I work, if a mom chooses to bottlefeed, we do not just accept that as her choice, but inform her of all the reasons breastfeeding is a better choice. Then of course, she still can bottle feed. But I imagine the feelings of a mom where I live who chooses to formula feed without even attempting breastfeeding would be defensiveness and even a little bit of guilt and shame. That is how far it has swung. And, because breastfeeding is indeed superior in so many ways I think in this case the peer pressure is good.

But human beings still have the capacity to be ugly, and even now the mom who ends up formula feeding, because she could not breastfeed ( exceedingly rare, but happens ) or even a mom who adopted ( and chose not to go through the trials of inducing lactation, which almost always requires supplementation and is a hug e amount of work ) will experience a lot of peer pressure and questioning and blaming. Her peers will think she is bottlefeeding because she loves her baby less, she is less commited, she is less of a woman, and will perhaps even give a mom who has tried everything and just could not breastfeed after months of effort and anguish, if only you had done this or they secretly think and let on that they know if she had REALLY tried she could have breastfed. This is SO hurtful. So that is what Helen meant by 'breastfeeding Nazi'. I know because I have seen it. It is real.

I am sure, Helen having been a doula and I a labor nurse, if we had a choice would rather moms were shunned for bottlefeeding than breastfeeding. But I'll speak for Helen and say that WE think mothers should not be shunning eachother and judging in this way at all.

The pendulum has swung so far where I live I had no trouble in the first year breastfeeding wherever I felt like it and see babies nursing wherever I go. I want to see it swing far enough that no one would stare when I nurse my toddler. Not that far yet I am afraid. So I keep it private. But when I went to the east coast, bottles everywhere. I breastfed on a bench in Williamsburg. Stares. Ugly looks. My boob wasn't hanging out. I was discrete. So I do not doubt that where you live things could be VERY different than where I live. There are huge regional differences.

My hospital does not hand out formula samples. Nurses would be fired for giving a breasfed baby formula without a doctors order. Pacifiers are used only with moms permission. Sugar water is a big no no. Lactation educators see every mom. Lactation consultants see every one having trouble. Even babies and moms with huge challenges succeed at breastfeeding. Things can change, and do. I have seen it.

I will write more and read your links too. Thanks!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 22:57:14 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: stonor770@netscape.net
To: Susan
Subject: To Susan
Message:
Hi Susan,

I have read your journey and also appreciated your posts in this thread. You haven't responded to my longer post to you (not necessary, but I hadn't read this before, so it's rather surprising the way that we seem to cover some of the same ground. As I've said, this is not my field, but I do believe in taking the opportunity to link people (and/or info) with similar interests and concerns together if possible, and if they so desire. Here are some links I received from a friend today, who works at the University of Victoria, in the Women's Studies Department - they may be of interest or use to you - I don't know, but here's that section:

'One of our students made a web-site for her WS 103 project. Her
links page is excellent (I mean the sites she links to are excellent). Here
they are, with her comments:'

Women'space Magazine (I think it's great!)'>

is a feminist search engine

Canadian Women's Internet Association

UVic's Women's Studies Department

Bust Magazine Online

Shift Magazine, not explicitly feminist, but cool
technology and culture stuff.

She also sent me the breast cancer info.

My sister used the Bradley method for both of her children's births. She went to great lengths to find a hospital and doctor supportive of her choice. Fortunately she was able to have her second (almost 5 years ago) at a recently opened mid-wife-run centre in Montreal. Her husband was present, as well as myself, accompanying her son (3 at the time) who insisted on being there. (My sister yielded to this as she had vivid memories of how she had felt when our mother disappeared to the hospital for a week(?) when she gave birth to me). She prepared him as well as she could beforehand, and although her son and I spent most of our time playing in another area, we called and were there at the actual birth.

Take care,

Stonor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 07:12:24 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: you want to know about me? (ot)
Message:
Don't you think it's that part of the medical establishment that is more open to innovation? It's where treatment is dangerous and arguably comparable to disease that doctors clutch to their ways over exploring alternatives. A simple example is the way Chiropractic gets smeared by the bone docs. I've personally only met one person who was happy about having their bones cut.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 20:04:57 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Susan, Jim +
Subject: Speaking from personal experience?
Message:
In my original post on homeopathy I gave a number of sources of info, both positive and negative. And, as I've also said, I am speaking from personal experience. There are fanatics/extremists in every area.

Here's something for you both to consider (thanks cq for link)

The Fourth Way® Gurdjieff Ouspensky School

Brainwashing and Thought Control

`Sacred Science'

Maintains an aura of sacredness around its basic dogma, holding it out as the ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence; evident in the prohibition (explicit or implicit) against the questioning of basic assumptions, in the reverence demanded for the originators of the teaching, the present bearers of the teaching, and the teaching itself; while thus transcending ordinary concerns of logic, however, it makes an exaggerated claim of airtight logic, of absolute `scientific' precision.

Doctrine over Person

Subordination of human experience to the claims of doctrine, evident in the continual shift between experience itself and the highly abstract interpretation of such experience, between genuine feelings and a spurious cataloging of feelings; produces a peculiar aura of half-reality in the environment, at least to the outsider.

Like I say, knock three times, if no one is home, move on, and let the dead bury the dead.

All the best to you both!

Stonor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 20:45:40 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim, Susan +
Subject: PS: Speaking from personal experience?
Message:
And as you mentioned Susan, competence /incompetence in all areas, as well as all the gradations in between.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 00:06:40 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: I wrote a thoughtful eloquent post
Message:
and my two year old pressed some key and it was gone.

Here is a link. I think the woman who wrote this has a lot of insight into the alternative health world vs the mainstream world. And as you say, there are good and bad representatives in both. But I have a good cult sniffer, developed at one of the best schools we are all graduates of. If I joined a cult when I got my RN than I missed it. This is from someone who shuns Amway salesmen.

mothers who think archive

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/1999/08/04/homebirth/index.html

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 01:36:43 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: stonor770@netscape.net
To: Susan
Subject: TWO times? Thank you!
Message:
And I think I need to link you up with my sister who is very involved in La Leche League! I'm going to pass that link on to her. (I have no children and can't, but on old Vietnamese man, without knowing this, once stood up in class as students were pushing me to make babies, and said 'She has lots of children - all of us!' Strangely enough, the topic hasn't arisen since.

While we're talking about more women related issues, I've copied an e-mail I got from a friend recently which I encourage everyone to pass on:

Breast Cancer

Some time ago, I attended a Breast Cancer Awareness seminar put on by Terry
Birk with support from Dan Sullivan. During the Q&A period, I asked why the
most common area for Breast Cancer was near the arm pit. My question could
not be answered at that time. This email was sent to me, and I find it
interesting that my question has been answered. I challenge you all to
re-think your every day use of a product that could ultimately lead to a
terminal illness. As of today, I will change my use. A friend forwarded this
to me. I showed it to a friend going through chemotherapy and she said she
learned this fact in a support group recently. I wish I had known it 14
years ago. I just got information from a health seminar that I would like to
share.

The leading cause of breast cancer is the use of anti-perspirant.
What?

A concentration of toxins and leads to cell mutations: a.k.a. CANCER. Yes,
ANTI-PERSPIRANT. Most of the products out there are an
anti-perspirant/deodorant combination, so go home and check.

Deodorant is fine, anti-perspirant is not. Here's why: The human body has a
few areas that it uses to purge toxins; behind the knees, behind the ears,
groin area, and armpits. The toxins are purged in the form of perspiration.

Anti-perspirant, as the name clearly indicates, prevents you from
perspiring, thereby inhibiting the body from purging toxins from below the
armpits. These toxins do not just magically disappear. Instead, the body
deposits them in the lymph nodes below the arms since it cannot sweat them
out. Nearly all breast cancer tumors occur in the upper outside quadrant of
the breast area.

This is precisely where the lymph nodes are located. Additionally, men are
less likely (but not completely exempt) to develop breast cancer prompted by
anti-perspirant usage because most of the anti-perspirant product is caught
in their hair and is not directly applied to the skin.

Women who apply anti-perspirant right after shaving increase the risk
further because shaving causes almost imperceptible nicks in
the skin which give the chemicals entrance into the body from the armpit area.

PLEASE pass this along to anyone you care about. Breast cancer is becoming
frighteningly common. This awareness may save lives. If you are skeptical
about these findings, I urge you to do some research for yourself. You will
arrive at the same conclusions, I assure you.

:-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :->
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful,
committed citizens can change the world;
indeed, it's the only thing that ever does.
-- Margaret Mead

Washing one's hands of the conflict between the
powerful and the powerless means to side with the
powerful, not to be neutral.
-- Paulo Freire


Now I have to get back to my other work.


Thanks again,

Stonor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 13:32:08 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: trixie
Subject: I may get dressed as a woman but...
Message:
Trixie,

I may wear the odd dress from time to time, but I'm not a homeopath.

I've got nothing against them personally though'.

Anth the Likes Football and Playing Pool and Drinking Beer From Cans (dressed in pink).

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 16:17:03 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Good morning Anth! LOL! (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 14:36:52 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I may get dressed as a woman but...
Message:
Dear Anth,
Was just thinking of you in pink and wondering was it the style of dress or the color pink but you looked taller in that then in your recent Latvian photos!
Must be pink is your color!
Love,
Robyn, tickled pink
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 18:39:08 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: ... is this Custard's last stand? (nt) (!)
Message:
... is this Custard's last stand? (nt) (!)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 21:07:47 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: ... is this Custard's last stand? (nt) (!)
Message:
Dear Chris,
I think I got that tickled pink from one of your jokes. :) I had a peek at that sight and it is amazing, there are plethoras of jokes there and every one Ir ead was so good. :)
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 16:15:09 (GMT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Trying to figure out what board this about
Message:
I was just passing through. I was once a cult member in the GMJ cult. I was just searching around and found this site and forum. I have been reading the posts for the last couple of days and am pretty lost. What is the dynamic you are all involved in here? Are you all against each other or trying to toughen up you feelings and senses or what?

I don't really know what is going on here and am hoping that someone will explain it to me.

Thanks

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 21:20:20 (GMT)
From: AOA Ji
Email: And_On_Anand@yahoo.com
To: Passing Through
Subject: Trying to figure out what board this about
Message:
I think (and what follows are only my thoughts, even
though the language used is a bit more declarative!)

... the Internet is like having a good file browser.
All of a sudden, the arbitrary boundaries are removed,
and you can see everything in a glance.

It's not a good social model.

I think that the route to civility is through userid's
and passwords. Anything else is chaotic, in my
opinion.

A system of userid's and passwords can remain
anonymous -- all that's been worked out by the
information scientists. Assigning user accounts
enables a few important benefits: private, anonymous
intercommunication between just two individuals
(as an alternative); a reduction in identity-blurring
-- and a degree of accountability to one's pseudonym.

Good conferencing begins with linear messaging -- it
is a proven technique. It looks like this:

Seed message
xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx

First response
xxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Second response
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Third response
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

(and a box at the very bottom, for your follow-up
response to be added to the queue).


Non-Linear conferencing can't be depicted readily
here, but it is characterized by individual messages
on separate views or pages. Imagine printing a book
on a single roll of paper; then imagine printing it
on 8x10 sheets of paper. One is randomly-accessible;
the other must (more or less) be scrolled to the
location of interest.

The important thing I'd note about linear conferencing
is that the messages are presented in sequence, with
smooth scrolling between individual messages -- it preserves context. It reads top-down, like a
page in a book does.

The preservation of context, it turns out, is critical
to human understanding in this environment. Otherwise,
it is like a slide-show; the room goes dark for a moment, and a surprise, random image (or message)
pops up. Puts a great demand on the audience to
remember what came previously, since there is no one
author presenting a single theme.

Messages that are posted asynchronously
(any place any time, without synchrony) tend to be
organized by 'thread' whereas linear conferencing
(which does require a central organizational element
or bottleneck) is organized by topic. The primary
benefit to linear is that all participants see the
same information in the same order.

Reduces confusion, and the residual mental energy can
be better spent in composition, instead of navigation.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 11:50:54 (GMT)
From: aoaji
Email: None
To: anyone
Subject: conferencing software -ot-
Message:
I need to add that some of the new improvements
made to the forum (perl scripts?) are excellent
changes -- the one I appreciate the most is the l
arge number of posts' headings that are available
for clicking-on, underneath a message's text and
above the reply box. The message I'm replying to,
for instance, has 27 other messages listed under
it, which makes for a rapid interface, instead of
loading the entire 'Active Index'.

I'd even go as far as to say if I liked the basic
topology model of the Forum, this is the software
I'd like to be using -- it is very very good in
it's class. I hope Brian (or whomever wrote it)
markets it elsewhere, since if you've got to use
the 'wrong' model (my take only!) you might as well
be using the best implementation.

Again: superb implementation; I just think that for
social reasons, the other model works much better.
Motet, for example, is a good early implementation
of the model I prefer. I've heard since that it is
getting dated and there are much better options; but
for the systems that can and do make use of it, it
is excellent.

For the price range, I think I'd like to see if COW
(Conferencing on the Web) can be implemented on the
same scale that (this) Forum is.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 13:39:58 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Everyone here is crazy.
Message:
...better get out fast, or you'll end up like the rest of us.

Anth the Manic Laugh

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 00:04:30 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Look no more!!!!
Message:
I found it. I've flipped, gone over. A new guru.

Your questions will be answered PT.

http://www.resort.com/~banshee/Misc/8ball/

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 02:28:42 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Look no more!!!!
Message:
I thought this Bob guy sounded like the 8ball featured in clips between a 'Night Music' show about 9 (?) years back. That kind of wisdom you just never forget! (But they had a REAL eight ball!)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 03:55:38 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: yes I remember how I trusted my 8 ball
Message:
AS A kid I swore by it. eerie isn't it? that bob. reminds me of Twin Peaks.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 07:06:38 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: and I might add
Subject: there is nothing absolutely nothing
Message:
inflammatory about that last post. How anyone could interpret
it that way is beyond me. Stoner you asked on AG what I meant by that post. What the hell?????
You are nuts.
don't bother answering. Well anwer if you want but I am never ever answering any of your posts so go for it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 20:20:54 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Look no more!!!!
Message:
Bob Dobbs is just fine and dandy ... but ... well,
y'know - he's a he.

My style leads me toward:
http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm

(don't forget to check out the pics)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 02:31:57 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Look no more!!!!
Message:
I hope you've gotten this to Hal. Wasn't he asking for this kind of info a while back?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 13:31:59 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Myths and legends! controversial or what ?? nt
Message:
r
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 01:13:33 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: all
Subject: On MY first look - damned gurus are all alike
Message:
I asked the Smoking Head of Bob:

Q. Is Maharaji a Fraud?

A. As Bob see it yes

Q. Is Maharaji the Lord of the Universe?

A. Concentrate and ask the question again

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 01:45:35 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Bob answers the meaning of life
Message:
I asked the Smoking Head of Bob

'What is the meaning of life?'

Bob answered

'It is decidedly so.'

Very profound, I think I understand, it just IS!
It just IS what it IS! Not just that, but it IS
DECIDEDLY what it IS! It DECIDED to be what it IS!
And it is so ... something that can't be put into
words!

I think I've found my new Guru! ;-)

Oh Bob! Smoke your pipe! Let me smell your pipe!

Radiant beams from your Holy face!

But will He want some fine tobacco from me as a
way for me to show my 'gratitude'?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 01:49:53 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: G
Subject: we don't know how he gets those answers
Message:
Might be something else in that pipe.
I should give him another chance. What did I expect asking dumb questions I get dumb answers. I will repent and return a better devotee for my lesson.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 02:04:05 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: something else in that pipe.
Message:
Judging by His shit-eating grin, I would say you're right.
Maybe that's why I want to smell His pipe.

Boy, this 'gratitude' business could get expensive.

But what I am saying? Here I am, being selfish, seeing
gratitude as a burden. I must repent also and ask for
Bobji's forgiveness, he does forgive sin, right?
Supplying Bob with the finest quality, most excellent
smoke is an opportunity. It's not like He needs or
wants the stuff. He's just playing His divine lila to
provide ever so small me the opportunity to express my
devotion, which I am not even worthy to give. I am not
even worthy to be His ashtray.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 18:17:42 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Bob's koan
Message:
I asked Bob; what else - 'Who is Guru Maharaji?' Bob's answer? 'Don't count on it'. Hmmmmmm.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 20:27:08 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Bob's koan
Message:
He's good:

I asked 'What time is it'

Bob replied:

'cannot predict now'





Ha!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 20:31:43 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: sorry Selene, i've just gone off him
Message:
I asked:

'Should you leave no room for doubt in your mind?'

Bob replied:

'It is decidedly so'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 23:39:33 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Yes once an ex... even after this weekend
Message:
We are all fickle. I know. He is pursueing me though!
I'm getting paranoid. He's got me going into bad areas and buying drugs. What pictures? I didn't look enough I guess.
They made me work.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 20:17:09 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Yes once an ex... even after this weekend
Message:
the pics weren't of the Church of Sub-Genius' Bob Dobbs,

they were of Acharya S, on: http://http://www.truthbeknown.com/author.htm

Be surprised ...

be very surprised.





(or not, as the case may be ...)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 20:26:38 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: ... even after this weekend, but now it's Tuesday
Message:
... even after this weekend, but now it's Tuesday

And I'm having second thoughts about Bob. He's good, sometimes.

Forgive me for this Selene, but I asked the one and only Dobbguru the following question:

'Is Selene not to be trusted?'

His reply?

'As I see it, yes'


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 20:37:04 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: he's right I'm insane
Message:
I've been working hours and hours and in between killing times
while waiting for systems to call back by posting and reading
here or on AG.
I have flipped. arrgghh.
bob has some good insights.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 20:39:33 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: good insights? I should say ...
Message:
good insights? I should say ...

I asked the BOB: 'Are you God'

Answer:

'Yes, definitely'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 16:56:32 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: good question ...
Message:
Trying to figure out what board this about:




THE FERRARI AND THE MOPED

A hip young man goes out and buys a 1998 Ferrari GTO. It is
the best and most expensive car available in the world,
costing about $500,000. He takes it out for a spin and while
stopping for a red light, an old man on a moped, (both
looking about 90 years old) pulls up next to him. The old
man looks over the sleek, shiny surface of the car and asks,
'What kind of car ya' got there, sonny?' The young man
replies, 'A 1998 Ferrari GTO. They cost about a half million
dollars!' 'That's a lot of money,' says the old man, shocked.
'Why does it cost so much?'

'Because this car can do up to 320 miles an hour!' states the
cool dude proudly.

The moped driver asks, 'Can I take a look inside?' 'Sure,'
replies the owner. So the old man pokes his head in the
window and looks around. Leaning back on his moped, the
old man says, 'That's a pretty nice car, all right!'

Just then the light changes so the guy decides to show the
old man what his car can do. He floors it, and within 30
seconds the speedometer reads 320 mph. Suddenly, he
notices a dot in his rear view mirror. It seems to be getting
closer! He slows down to see what it could be and suddenly,
Whoooooosh! Something whips by him, going much faster!
'What on earth could be going faster than my Ferrari?' the
young man asks himself. Then, ahead of him, he sees a dot
coming toward him. Whoooooosh! It goes by again, heading
the opposite direction! And it almost looked like the old man
on the moped! 'Couldn't be,' thinks the guy. 'How could a
moped outrun a Ferrari?' Again, he sees a dot in his rear view
mirror!

Whoooooosh Ka-BbblaMMM! It plows into the back of his car,
demolishing the rear end. The young man jumps out, and it
IS the old man! Of course, the moped and the old man are
hurting.

He runs up to the dying old man and says, 'You're badly
hurt! Is there anything I can do for you?'

The old man moans and replies, 'Yes, Unhook my
suspenders from your side-view mirror!'




CHAMPAGNE

On the last day of kindergarten, all the children brought
presents for their teacher.

The florist's son handed the teacher a gift. She shook it, held
it up and said, 'I bet I know what it is - it's some flowers!'

'That's right!' shouted the little boy.

Then the candy store owner's daughter handed the teacher a
gift.

She held it up, shook it and said. 'I bet I know what it is - it's
a box of candy!'

'That's right!' shouted the little girl.

The next gift was from the liquor store owner's son. The
teacher held it up and saw that it was leaking. She touched a
drop with her finger and tasted it. 'Is it wine?' she asked.

'No,' the boy answered.

The teacher touched another drop to her tongue. 'Is it
champagne?' she asked.

'No,' the boy answered.

Finally, the teacher said, 'I give up. What is it?'

The boy replied, 'A puppy!'






THE PRICE OF ETERNITY

One day a man, Tony, died. When he was sent to be judged,
he was told that he had committed a sin and that he could
not go to heaven right away. He asked what he did and God
told him that he cheated on his income taxes and that the
only way he could get into heaven would be to sleep with a
500 pound, stupid, butt-ugly woman for the next five years
and enjoy it. Tony decided that this was a small price to pay
for an eternity in heaven. So off he went with this enormous
woman, pretending to be happy.

As he was walking along, he saw his friend Carlos up ahead.
Carlos was with an even bigger, uglier woman than he was
with. When he approached Carlos he asked him what was
going on, and Carlos replied 'I cheated on my income taxes
and scammed the government out of a lot of money...even
more then you did.' They both shook their heads in
understanding and figured that as long as they have to be
with these women, they might as well hang out together to
help pass the time.

Now Tony, Carlos, and their two beastly women were walking
along, minding their own business when Tony and Carlos
could have sworn that they saw their friend Jon up ahead,
only this man was with an absolutely drop dead gorgeous
supermodel/centerfold.

Stunned, Tony and Carlos approached the man and realized
that it was their friend Jon. They asked him how is he with
this unbelievable goddess while they were stuck with the two
ugly women. Jon replied 'I have no idea but I'm definitely
not complaining. This has been absolutely the best time of
my life (and I'm dead!) and I have five years to look forward
to the best sex any man could hope for. There is only one
thing that I can't seem to understand. After every time we
have sex, she rolls over and murmurs to herself, 'Damn
those income taxes!'




Still trying to figure out what board this about?
Join the club.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 16:53:32 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Trying to figure out what board this about
Message:
PT:

Why don't you read some of the journeys and other material on the site. I can't imagine that things are all that inscrutable.

Are you all against each other or trying to toughen up you feelings and senses or what?

I don't know what that means. Maybe you could explain it to me? I'm just here for the babes.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 17:04:04 (GMT)
From: Passing Thru
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: where are babes?
Message:
don't see pics anywhere.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 17:29:03 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Passing Thru
Subject: where are babes?
Message:
They're between the lines. You have to squint.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 17:57:22 (GMT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Tried...but still don't see any
Message:
tried and tried but still can't see what you are talking about.
are you pulling my leg?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 14:24:52 (GMT)
From: Left but dropped by...
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Tried...but still don't see any
Message:
Take the advice from above - leave now - don't look back - don't try to make any sense of this site - this site is a train wreck.
Took months to figure that out. Life's too short.
Look sometimes for fun and maybe some legitimate information.
But don't get involved or invested in anyway with these people.
Look elsewhere for fun and interesting sites all over the place on the net.
Whether you're for or against Maharaji - it makes no difference.
Involvement is futile.

I'll check later - maybe in months to see if you come to the same conclusion. Good luck, really.

Left... and very happy about it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 02:18:14 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Tried...but still don't see any
Message:
Of course Scot T's not.

Try the method I use. Put your left hand on top of your monitor and with your right hand strike the pose which is the first technique. As you see the swirls of light begin to appear (well that's how it is for me) you'll see the babe of your dreams form in the centre. If your really lucky, as I occassionally am, it will be Selene. But beware, she sometimes brings her whip.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 02:22:01 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: hey now Oliver
Message:
some types go for that you know...
Look that was a very intense thing for me lots of history and all. I'm sorry.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 02:38:59 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: hey now Selene
Message:
Please expand. I want to know more!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 02:44:15 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: I have a new cop out (you know).....
Message:
I have to ask my guru Bob how to answer. I'll get back to you
Or you could ask him. He wants me to score for him. I was bad and left room for doubt in my mind. So you may get faster response time that way.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 06:42:56 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: How many exes...
Message:
I am not here to fight anyone. This includes people who I disagree with. I am committed to exposing M. I also like to be in touch with the ex community because being a premie was such a big part of my life. I wouldn't mind debates, but that isn't what I see going on.

It's true that I don't like the flaming and so on. When I attempt to engage with people about it, it does tend to turn into an argument. I'm not a prude or whatever. I can tell someone to fuckoff. But it's not why I'm here.

M is someone who deserves to be told to fuckoff IMO. Some of the PAM's probably do.

I have seen some behavior on the forums that might make me want to tell someone to fuckoff. I try not to, but I respond in my own way. I do my best but it often turns into a fight even if I attempt humor. Apparently, my dry wit doesn't show up under normal forum light conditions.

It'd be nice to be able to discuss similar topics under different conditions, but I'm realistic.

Self-deprecating humor is an important part of every 'group'. It might be nice if we could see ourselves a little more accurately without the necessity for political correctness.

You know, like how many exes does it take to screw in a light bulb?

Twelve. One to screw it in, and ten to argue with the premie who is in the room.

Know what I mean?


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 15:31:46 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: You missed one
Message:
You know, like how many exes does it take to screw in a light bulb?

Twelve. One to screw it in, and ten to argue with the premie who is in the room.

That makes ELEVEN exes. What's the the other one doing, telling the other ten how fruitless their attempts at talking sense to some brainwashed cult member is?

Still, that was a pretty good joke.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 13:43:31 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Screwing lightbulbs
Message:
Hi again Jerry,

Screwing lightbulbs is dangerous.

Anth the Elastoplast

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 18:40:49 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Try bayonet rather than ES (nt)
Message:
Try bayonet rather than ES (nt)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 00:22:54 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: ROTFLOL (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 07:25:14 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Scratch a premie, find...
Message:
a way not to cut them too deeply. Odds are they are not going to be premies forever and those odds are very high.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 18:42:50 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: odds are very high.. like Anth's elastoplasts?(nt)
Message:
those odds are very high'

...like Anth's elastoplasts? (nt)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 16:42:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: You missed one
Message:
And THAT was a good one, Jer!

All I can say is that this is classic Run. Too bad.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 15:58:24 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Nice one, Gerry, and don't forge the New-Agers ...
Message:
Nice one, Gerry, and don't forget the New-Agers ...


How many New-agers does it take to change a lightbulb?


New-agers: 25. One to change the bulb, one to check the new
one for bad psychic auras, one to test the new bulb with a
crystal, one to consult the astrology chart, five to read books
about it, three to study whether it'll work in the future, 12 to
perform the dance of the renewal of the light, and one to say
'Hmmm well I don't really mind who does it. I mean, I COULD
do it, but of course I wouldn’t want to impose my will upon
anyone else'.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 16:58:13 (GMT)
From: blood boils
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: how many Nw-agrs to clean out the spring for real
Message:
This actually happened. I was the one with the shovel.

sorry to plagerize the basic idea but this was for real

How many New-agers does it take to clean out a spring


New-agers: 41
One with a shovel to do the work.
one to plan the ritual,
seven to discuss the ritual,
four to argue about the message the
earth is sending by stopping the flow,
five to devise appropriate chant to the spirit of the spring,
one to ask the nature spirits if it is okay,
three to select the incense to be used at the ritual,
three to carry the drums to the spring site,
one to carry flute,
one to carry guitar,
one to be in charge of getting everyone there at the
appointed time.
12 to perform the dance of the renewal of the spring, and
one to say 'Hmmm well I don't really mind who does it. I mean, I COULD
do it, but of course I wouldn’t want to impose my will upon
anyone else'.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 17:12:21 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: blood boils
Subject: you sound like a natural volunteer ...
Message:
Ah, but how many Satgurus does it take to change a lightbulb?

One. He holds the bulb while the world
revolves around him.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 21:32:01 (GMT)
From: blood boils
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: correction I forgot a few, who else did I forget
Message:
How many New-agers does it take to clean out a spring

New-agers: 70
One with a shovel to do the work,
one to plan the ritual,
seven to discuss the ritual,
two to stack rocks into piles,
one to check with the crystals,
one to consult the i ching,
one to check with the runes,
one to channel from the Pleiades about springs,
two to have a discussion about when this happened before,
one to check with the deva of the land,
one to check with the old indian spirits that live on the land,
one to do a tarot reading,
one to do a radionic broadcast,
one to find out if there is a vortex,
one to build a crystal grid.
one to clear the land of bad energy,
four to argue about the message the
earth is sending by stopping the flow,
five to devise appropriate chant to the spirit of the spring,
one to ask the nature spirits if it is okay,
three to select the incense to be used at the ritual,
three to carry the drums to the spring site,
one to carry flute,
one to carry guitar,
one to be in charge of getting everyone there at the appointed time.
one to burn sage,
one to hold ear candles for all the dancers,
three to cater humus and tofu chips for the participants,
four to design and sew the costumes for the ritual,
one to study the earth grid as it relates to the great pyramid,
one to check with dowsing rods
one to cast out demons
one to check for biblical precedents
12 to perform the dance of the renewal of the spring, and
one to draw various geometric shapes around the site
one to say 'Hmmm well I don't really mind who does it.
I mean, I COULD
do it, but of course I wouldn’t want to impose my will upon
anyone else'.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 18:49:30 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: blood boils
Subject: I just got it! 'Clean out a spring'! Ha ha h(nt)
Message:
I just got it! 'Clean out a spring'! Ha ha h(nt)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 17:41:57 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: blood boils
Subject: Very funny - LOL!
Message:
But aren't you glad you were the one with the shovel? (I would have been!) Sheesh!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 16:39:36 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Jerry is not Gerry, and visa versa (nt)
Message:
No lie. We're different people. Really.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 16:30:23 (GMT)
From: Gerry/ Jerry
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Uh Chris, pardon me but...
Message:
There's two jerrys here. And I'm sure Jerry would like to make that distinction very clear :-)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 16:44:37 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Gerry/ Jerry
Subject: Uh Chris, pardon me but...
Message:
Actually, Gerry, I'm flattered that people would think we're one and the same :o)

(I got that smiley face from Mili, btw. I think it's the best one I've seen here, yet. Who says an ex can't give credit to a premie when it's due?).

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 17:08:24 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Uh Chris, pardon me but...
Message:
Quirkus here:

A bus stops and two Italian men get on. They seat
themselves, and engage in animated conversation. The lady
sitting behind them ignores their conversation at first, but her
attention is galvanized when she hears one of the men say
the following:

'Emma come first. Den I come. Two asses, they come
together. I come again. Two asses, they come together
again. I come again and pee twice. Then I come
once-a-more.'

'You foul-mouthed swine,' retorted the lady indignantly. In
this country we don't talk about our sex lives in public!'

'Hey, coola down lady,' said the man. 'Imma just tellun my
friend howa to spella Mississippi.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 07:05:01 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: How many exes...
Message:
I rarely post a message but I follow what is posted on a daily basis and look forward to seeing what has been posted since last I was here.
The flaming doesn't bother me too much but that may be that it is not directed at me. What does piss me off is wasting my time opening up threads and messages that have nothing to do with what the forum should be about, ie, exposing the fat one for the prick he really is. However, the flaming does not assist in getting this message to interested non premies and aspirants and could give the impression that we are just a bunch of disfunctional ex-cult members incapable of communicating in a civil manner. Is that what we are?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 07:16:34 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: How many exes...
Message:
Is this really the thread you want to jump into with this?
gawd! No of course this communication is not presenting a sqeaky clean image to the public for the world to see how wonderful life without knowledge is.
It is real life. Maharajis censored web site is a better place for that type of bs PR. But shit happens. Would you like to take on the job of administrating this forum? How would you do it?
Really I am asking for suggestions.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 11:26:03 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: How many exes...
Message:
I suppose it serves me right for making a rare post. As soon as I do there’s Selene with both guns drawn and both barrels blazing.

Well I don’t know what post knowledge life is for you sweetheart but mine is fine and dandy. For one thing I don’t have to put up with premies who don’t know there arse from a hole in the ground. Shit does happen.

No I wouldn’t have any desire to be involved in the administration of this forum. It seems to me that it would be a thankless task and I have no idea how I would do it so there are no suggestions forthcoming. How would you? Really, I’m interested.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 18:11:54 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Hi Oliver - good morning
Message:
how would I administer this site? I'd just let it go.
I wouldn't delete anything except threats. That's it. I'd like to do it actually but I have a job.
Sorry if I seemed to come out with guns and all. It didn't feel that way to me, but a lot of people say I am intense.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 06:53:17 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Run, it's time to go to sleep now...please!! (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 06:51:30 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: No I don't know what you mean
Message:
and where's my apology and retraction for the lies you attempted to spread about me?

You say you don't like flaming. But you engage in it anyway. I consider your hurling three pretty serious false accusations about me way beyond flaming.

Why should anyone believe anything you say or respond to you like you have any credibility at all?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 07:07:41 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: No I don't know what you mean
Message:
Give it a rest matey. Please. The thread below was so long and boring. Let's not have another one here.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 07:17:39 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: No I don't know what you mean
Message:
I agree. But no I will not give it a rest. I'll keep it up until he apologizes. It's not you who he lied about, now is it? Tell you what, you come up with an acceptable plan to end this and I'll acquiese. I'm all ears.

PS I don't believe we've met. I'm Gerry Lyng from McCleary Washington, USA and you are...?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 19:54:23 (GMT)
From: Jimmy Fitz
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Gerry, lest we forget...
Message:
Gerry, while Runamok did not flame you, something he so publicly abhors, he certainly did malign and slander you.

But, Gerry, your real problem is that you do not understand Runamok's dry wit and sense of humor. Spend less time studying the markets and more time studying his humor and you will prosper.

Never give an inch to that bastard!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 11:34:43 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: No I don't know what you mean
Message:
To me your plan to ‘keep it up until he apologizes’ is flawed Gerry in that there is a distinct possibility that he wil not ever say ‘I’m sorry.’ What about saying to him ‘Runamok you have been a complete arsehole but I forgive
You.’ You then will be seen as the better person than he and you will feel much better then you do now. Who was it that said,‘a person unable to forgive is sentenced to an unenlightened life.'
PS Your right, we have not met. I am AKA Oliver and live a long, long way away from Washington in a country far away.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 15:41:04 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Forgiveness
Message:
Hey, Oliver, I think that forgiveness thing works when it's done like this:

Offender: I'm sorry.
Offended: I forgive you.

No?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 01:17:23 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Forgiveness
Message:
From my experience it works both ways. The important thing is for the person who feels hard done by to rid themselves of that sense of having been done wrong. Forgiving the wrong doer is the quickest way to accomlish this.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 17:35:18 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Forgiveness
Message:
Hi Oliver -
I agree with what you say concerning forgiveness - in other words, NOT forgiving often hurts the person who is angry more than it hurts the person that they are angry at. In other words, some people are just not worth the time and energy it takes to sustain anger.

However, I really think that the ability to apologize means a person has maturity enough to be responsible for their own actions. I respect people who can apologize much more than I respect people who cannot, or who try and rationalize or deny their actions instead of apologizing. (And this includes actions that may have inadvertently hurt someone!)

I don't think asking for an apology is out of line, as long as you realize that you may never get it. There are some people who are NEVER going to apologize for anything (I think Maharaji is one of these people), so why waste your time being angry at someone who is so immature?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 01:33:38 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Forgiveness
Message:
Hi Katie,

Thanks for your positive reply to my post.

As you say, Maharaji is never going to apologize for all he has done to his premies over the years. But does that mean that we ex-premies should never forgive him? I'm not sure that I've got to that stage quite yet but I've stopped fantasizing about burning his house down and shooting his plane out of the sky. I do recognise that continued ill felling towards him will not make me feel any better. What does though, is being part of a group that has some effective way of exposing him to my community should he ever have the balls to appear anywhere close by. I'm hoping that my few contacts in the press will be interested in assisting in this and I'll surely ask for advice on this forum should he threaten to turn up.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 18:13:20 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: yup
Message:
that is all I was doing last nite. got shit for it too.
thanks again Jerry! are you reading my mind or something? :)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 07:37:09 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: I know you hate me but
Message:
PS I don't believe we've met. I'm Gerry Lyng from McCleary
Washington, USA and you are...?

Before I log off I have to say that is great. good for you. I suspect Oliver is one of the forum admins. And that is why I think it is so funny. I'm sorry things got so bad between us Gerry and you way misunderstood why I was trying to tell you before but oh well.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 16:27:38 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I like you, Selene.
Message:
I've been angry with you at times, but I never once 'hated' you. I'm sorry if I've misunderstood you. I'm an idiot at times. I think you are funny, talented and a bit quirky, which is good. Oh, yeah, almost forgot, way cute, too. (sorry)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 18:29:50 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: thanks Gerry
Message:
All I can know with certainty is my own experience online. And I have done some remarkably dumb shit and people have forgiven me.
It's amazing really.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 08:32:24 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: the perfect time and place
Message:
to snuggle up to Gerr and give him a big wet one.

I think Selene has some extra apologies for you Ger.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 08:37:19 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: what?
Message:
What is that supposed to mean?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 08:55:17 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: I'll say it again Runamok -- what???
Message:
Gerry may hate my guts but we some things in common. One thing comes to mind immediately. I can be obssesive as hell. I really didn't like that little innuendo.

I'll keep asking until you answer.

It was really sleazy and
I haven't had any communication with you for weeks and you come up with this nasty little piece of work on forum. geezus.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 20:28:04 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Selene--I'm crushed...
Message:
Hey Selene,

Run finally says something I can agree with and you're grossed out !!!

Snuggling and smooching with Selene sounds pretty good to me. !!!

Gerry the loves to neck and I hope patty doesn't read this or I'm in trouble big time.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 23:48:28 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Gerry don't be
Message:
I would think you'd be ecstatic! Does a bit for your argument
don't you think?
I wouldn't mind...
It's the wet one I'm confused about. I asked you over on AG.
What do you suppose it is? a booger? slimy gopher guts?
OR something I can't say since all the women here seem so very PC at the moment.
Don't be crushed Gerry. You know me.
Personally I was shocked! I tell you for someone who thought she was intelligent I don't know shit about people. I swear. At least about how to discern where someone is at over the net. I suppose that is fairly tough for anyone though.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index