Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 09:39:48 (GMT)
From: Apr 5, 2000 To: Apr 14, 2000 Page: 4 Of: 5


'Word' of the Day Award -:- Word Smith of the Day Award goes to --Scott T. -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 04:14:31 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Word Smith of the Day Award goes to --Scott T. -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 14:39:33 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- NATURALLY!!! :) -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 11:07:39 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- agreed!! -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 07:23:48 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- agreed!! -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 14:23:59 (GMT)

Elana V. Tall -:- Attentions customers -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 04:06:50 (GMT)

x#%*! -:- A time for introspection.........again -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 00:17:59 (GMT)
__ cq -:- You ask 'is lying always bad?' Interesting. (nt) -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 17:40:41 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- The Party's over. -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 09:31:40 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- A time for introspection.........again -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 15:28:50 (GMT)
__ __ x#%*! -:- A time for introspection.........again -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:38:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- A time for lying...no. -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 14:12:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Try a little inspection, while you're at it. -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 01:00:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike -:- Can I butt-in? -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 19:24:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Well said Mike. (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 14:29:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Let's dis George! -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 22:32:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Good point.... :-) (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 22:35:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Nothing personal, Mike -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 00:22:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- No offense taken.... :-) -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 00:44:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Good, none meant -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 03:32:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Good, none meant -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 09:25:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- This revisionism is good -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 13:35:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- some of it is just distortion -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 18:39:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- some of it is just distortion -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 20:31:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- some of it is just distortion -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 06:06:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Ever hear of Shays' Rebellion -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 15:58:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ x#%*! -:- Do I have a choice? -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 20:09:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- But look, this is beside the point. -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 09:39:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Actually, you do! -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 20:47:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ x#%*! -:- Actually, you do! -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 21:31:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Actually, you do! -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 00:32:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- not telling information vs lying -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 20:38:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ x#%*! -:- In this case it would have been an outright lie -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 20:47:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Talking about deceit, r u 'Url'? 'Nil'? Tuff? -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 00:52:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- you didn't say that before -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 21:45:25 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- A time for introspection.........again -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 11:53:49 (GMT)
__ G -:- A thing to consider -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 00:39:02 (GMT)
__ __ Daneane -:- Why? -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 01:34:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bjørn -:- Why? -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 12:05:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Why , Bjorn? -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 15:50:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- That is why , Jim! -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 08:13:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- his personal life -:- Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 02:53:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Daneane -:- RE -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 15:30:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Anon -:- Why? -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 08:18:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Come off it, Anon -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 16:00:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Come off it, Anon -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 09:59:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ x#%*! -:- Hey mr. pot, looks who's calling the kettle black -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:46:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- And how long have you been practicing? -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 19:36:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Why are you afraid to answer, @#? -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:49:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- You know, it's URL and NIL..... He won't deny it. -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 20:01:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Question: Is he also Jack Tuff? -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 20:11:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- I never thought of that, but I would say no (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 21:06:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Although I think he IS Canadian.....nt -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 21:16:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Why? -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 00:11:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Spelling... -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 02:43:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Well I knew that, I just pitched you a lob ball -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 03:06:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- JW, I've seen you count.... I know you count! -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 20:03:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Thanks and something nice about nil/url/x#%*! -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 21:14:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- OK, let's test it -- x#%*! , are you 'Url'? AND.. -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 23:54:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- OK, let's test it -- x#%*! , are you 'Url'? AND.. -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 10:08:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- You know, Joe... you are right! -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 21:52:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Anon -:- Come off it, Anon -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:31:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Why? -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 12:04:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mili -:- Why? -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 12:01:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Anon -:- Why? -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 23:30:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Thanks Anon! -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 12:38:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- kudos Anon! -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 20:15:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Anon -:- Thanks Anon! -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 14:27:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- What? -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 15:13:48 (GMT)

Jim -:- Here's another question, Michael -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 21:28:08 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Would YOU buy a used car from this man? -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 20:31:16 (GMT)
__ Anon -:- and some more feedback... -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 22:30:29 (GMT)
__ JW -:- Other Lies on Maharaji's Website -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 22:28:48 (GMT)

Jim -:- How to get rid of pesky questions -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 19:25:20 (GMT)
__ Lacaille -:- How profound of you. How's the band coming along? -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 19:58:19 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Not bad .......(????!) -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 20:21:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lacaille -:- Not bad .......(????!) -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:20:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Not bad .......(????!) -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:41:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lacaille -:- Micheal Dettmers -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 21:39:39 (GMT)
__ Mike -:- I can't help myself.... -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 19:42:28 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- I can't help myself.... -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 14:54:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- I can't help myself.... -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 19:56:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mike -:- SELENE.... an epiphany!!!!!! -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 20:21:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ selene -:- my goodness -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 20:33:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- I always knew there was a purpose for my life -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 21:00:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike -:- Ahhhhhh soooooo, it's that pesky key magnet guy -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 17:57:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Dabe -:- Ahhhhhh soooooo, it's that pesky key magnet guy -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 22:11:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dave -:- Ahhhhhh soooooo, it's that pesky key magnet guy -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 22:19:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ whoops -:- Ahhhhhh soooooo, it's that pesky key magnet guy -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 22:12:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ The real Dave -:- Please don't post as me, Rob (nt) -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 03:26:29 (GMT)

Q -:- 'devotional mind games' speaks volumes (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 19:13:28 (GMT)
__ Lacaille -:- This is an encrypted message. -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 19:37:58 (GMT)

la-ex -:- questions for michael dettmers -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:38:14 (GMT)
__ Dettmers -:- questions for michael dettmers -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 10:24:04 (GMT)
__ __ JW -:- questions for michael dettmers -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 17:42:48 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Please, Michael, a bit of a 'thought experiment' -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 16:51:39 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- questions for michael dettmers -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 16:02:46 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- One question for Michael -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 13:22:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- A qualification regarding 'phenomena' -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 14:41:51 (GMT)
__ Lacaille -:- questions for michael dettmers -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 19:29:36 (GMT)
__ __ book buyer -:- sign me up for Dettmers Tells All Book -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 01:37:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- One suggestion to Dettmers -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 15:38:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Very fine post there,Way. Hope Dettmers answers nt -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 17:43:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Happy -:- some comments -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:56:12 (GMT)

la-ex -:- who is bill w? -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 17:45:33 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Obviously a pseudonym -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:19:31 (GMT)
__ __ Bill W. -:- Obviously a pseudonym -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:34:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Obviously a pseudonym -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:25:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bill W. -:- Obviously a pseudonym -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 19:02:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Jesus, Jer -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:44:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Oh -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:58:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Ok, then..... who's watchin'? -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 20:02:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Oh -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 19:07:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Oh -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 19:49:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- thanks jerry -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:38:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- AA -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 21:29:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- yeah but.... -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 22:58:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- yeah but.... -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 02:00:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- no i'm more of a cat person -:- Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 03:08:33 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- HA! I should have thought of that (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:27:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Well where were you coming from? (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:30:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ selene -:- I plead the 5th -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:33:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Did you drink the 5th or just plead with it? -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 20:16:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- ok -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 20:18:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- ok -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 00:15:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- I can't believe you didn't! -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:29:04 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- I think it's a pseudonym... -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:18:18 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- who knows? -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:17:02 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- hey, great minds think alike! (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:20:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Watch it, bitch! -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:22:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Watch your language, boy! -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:28:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh you're asking for it now! -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:30:13 (GMT)

thin mann -:- give me your comment on this -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 14:43:40 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- give me your comment on this -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 17:31:27 (GMT)
__ __ blood boils -:- 'It's possible that I need whatever it was that I' -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 03:04:06 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Have you heard of punctuation... -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 15:11:34 (GMT)
__ __ Loaf -:- oh lets not be picky... -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 15:22:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ jerry -:- oh lets not be picky... -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 17:35:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- oh lets not be picky... -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:24:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Loafji -:- oh, erm, lets not be, picky, know what I mean.... -:- Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 05:52:26 (GMT)

A.P -:- Questions -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 12:37:08 (GMT)
__ JW -:- Questions -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 17:50:46 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Questions -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 16:03:33 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- Questions -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 15:16:49 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Re:Questions -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 14:25:09 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re:Questions -:- Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 16:11:34 (GMT)


Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 04:14:31 (GMT)
From: 'Word' of the Day Award
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Word Smith of the Day Award goes to --Scott T.
Message:
f or his brilliant posts
Brighter Than Ten Thousand Suns
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 14:39:33 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: 'Word' of the Day Award
Subject: Word Smith of the Day Award goes to --Scott T.
Message:
Thanks. I really don't deserve it, but would like to be sure to acknowledge all the little people (mostly little male guys with beards) living inside me who worked so tirelessly to slog the oxygen rich blood from my second to my seventh chakra. It is a thankless, difficult, and unending task. I have not yet been able to take that bike ride, since my housemate insists that I clear the bike repair junk out of the living room first. The ingrate!
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 11:07:39 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: 'Word' of the Day Award
Subject: NATURALLY!!! :)
Message:
agq3
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 07:23:48 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: 'Word' of the Day Award
Subject: agreed!!
Message:
Just back from a grueling last minute panic at work.
Thanks Scott T for the laugh re: my post in the who is bill w thread.
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 14:23:59 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Word of the Day
Subject: agreed!!
Message:
I concur. It is a pleasant rush as those words flow from one ear out the other. Just glad there is no pop quiz afterwords, pun intended.

But I have two other nominations from recent posts:

Loaf for such phrases as '...whatever they depend upon - be it money, or even more spookily, vanity.'

or

Bjorn, for such second-language phrases as 'obious lies about Maharaji.'

and our French-speaking poet from Canada.

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 04:06:50 (GMT)
From: Elana V. Tall
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Attentions customers
Message:
From the www.elanvital.org Satellite Broadcast Pay-Per-View page.

(Attention customers, please note the following legal protections. The broadcasts you will be viewing are copyrighted by Elan Vital and protected by law. Any unauthorized copying, duplication, rental, lending, distribution, exporting, importing, dissemination, exhibition or public performance is prohibited by law. Violators shall be subject to investigation by the FBI and other police and law enforcement agencies and to criminal prosecution, civil penalties or both.)

But remember, Admission to events is free of charge.

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 00:17:59 (GMT)
From: x#%*!
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A time for introspection.........again
Message:
The injection of Michaels Dettmers’ views to the discussion here makes the debate very interesting. Here we have someone who worked very closely with Maharaji for many years offering a perspective that up until now was only provided by a dead guy, ie; Mishler.

Clearly, there is a perception of this man Maharaji within the premie community that has been both somewhat crafted and guarded. One might claim that practice to be dishonest……..I don’t. It is not uncommon that leaders put a face forward to the public that is different than their personal persona. It is a matter of survival.

I will be honest and say Michael’s input HAS affected my own personal set of perceptions of Maharaji. This I don’t consider a bad thing. I am left today being less sure of who or what he is from a perspective of a higher power, and more sure that he is indeed a human being, which too is not a bad thing.

That said, what do I personally do with this new perspective. Well, the most unconscious approach is the knee-jerk approach. That is let the force of doubt draw me to a unchallenged set of conclusion based entirely on the doubts raised in the moment. You know what I mean….knee jerk. The other would be to examine the new information in the totality of other sets of information I have at other points in my life already processed. So what are some of those other sets that come into play? This information is personal and I in no way expect it to be universal.

First, there is what drove me to Maharaji in the first place? I had a deep longing to know who I was in relation to the universe. I had a deep longing to know the Creator because I realised something was behind life--permeated life--and was therefore knowable. I consciously pursued attaining this knowledge through many of the usual avenues and came up empty handed. So, I looked for someone who might be able to help. This inquiry was not knee-jerk, was very sincere, and something I knew I had to do. My family, my friends, many people I knew did NOT have these same inclinations. I therefore knew I had to go it alone.

Second, what did he give me? He gave me first of all hope. His words touched deeper than anybody else’s and went directly to the questions I had. The experience of premies I met rang true (especially compared to the many whacked out spiritual trippers of the day). He gave me a way to experience for myself a well within me such that I didn’t have to read about it anymore or adopt someone else’s opinion but I could know it for myself. He gave me direction how to inculcate the experience I found within myself into every aspect of my life. He was someone who stood up for that deepest aspect of myself that no one else seemed to really understand. As I said to Mark Appleman in a previous posts, he understood that life is given to us to give back to life, thereby closing the loop. He understood how improbable this is for most to accomplish on their own and consistently gave reminders that kept me focused on this goal.

Third, and probably most contentious to the debate, he gave me someone to worship and pray to. That is, he gave me a superior power in person. In other words he became a face and a human personality I could grasp with my mind instead of just an amorphous energy field.

And you know, all of this felt good. It felt just right. It was perfect. It made me feel whole from my head down to my toes. It was home. But note, this particular information was TOTALLY feeling-based.

So the questions come. Is he God? Is he a prophet like Jesus or Buddha? If as Michael says he is just human being, then is he a charismatic teacher, or some wizard of oz like character with a deeper understanding of the map of the human heart?

Maybe there is generic slot in a truth-seeker’s life for their own “superior power in person” that any teacher could step into. That teacher thereby “becomes” the superior power in person for that person presenting a much needed human face to the almighty. And if the teacher knows the way home, he is indeed elevated to the role of representative of the superior power for that person only. To everyone else he remains just an enigmatic burr in their butt-hair. If this were the case, this teacher would indeed have to be a very special human being. And those teachers who don't know the way are indeed charlatans and the truth seeker ends up worshipping a false god. So it becomes an issue of finding a teacher, any teacher, who truly knows the way. Of course these folks are few and far between.

Who knows? It is more a gut feeling I’ve come to accept than something I can prove but I know there is a home, and there is a place in the process for a bona fide teacher to assist in getting there. Whatever the case, in these questions is an echo heard of past Masters and the struggles experienced by their followers. Is he or isn’t he? Same debate; different players.

Why does this information matter to me? Because I don’t want to devote to just anybody. But then again, what is a prophet? I admit I have no idea. He may be just as human as the rest of us. What is God? What is the nature of his/she/it’s physical manifestations, if he were to manifest? I mean, if what I found is indeed home (and that is my assertion), do I care if a USDA Certified Prophet takes me there or if it’s the german shepherd down the street? Really, I just want to know my home exists and I can get there when I want to.

Bottom line is, what he gave me has stood the test of half my life. Maharaji has taught me incredible lessons about myself, and life. He showed me I don’t have to look beyond my own heart for a love that is without limits. Through Knowledge I know a God that is accessible, kind and loving. And on a worldly level he is a leader worthy of my devotion; his mission to present people with an opportunity to truly know themselves is most supportable. And I don’t want to stop learning about these things. So, while maintaining balance I will continue to try and be open to relevant inputs, and in the end I will, as in the past, gain a more robust understanding of reality……..come what may.

In the meantime, my prime concern is that I am happy and I feel good. Sorry if anybody thinks that too ignoble a priority for a thinking person to have but without that, I am of no use to myself or anyone else.

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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 17:40:41 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: x#%*!
Subject: You ask 'is lying always bad?' Interesting. (nt)
Message:
You ask 'is lying always bad?' Interesting. (nt)
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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 09:31:40 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: x#%*!
Subject: The Party's over.
Message:
x#%*!

One thing you've skipped over here is Maharaji's perception of himself. He definitely believes he is a 'Jesus' type Perfect Master, as do all the people closest to him.

You can't blame him for thinking this, as it's been drilled into him since he was a kid. Trouble is, he ain't a 'Jesus type Perfect Master', he's a very fallible human being, just like the rest of us.

It's great to have faith and be positive about life x#%*!, but what you worship isn't really all that different from worshiping a statue. And what you get back, the return on your faith and devotion, is what you'd get back from any religion if you invested the same in it.

He doesn't have any 'grace' or 'divine wisdom' or love for you or anything like that. He isn't going to establish peace on Earth, and he isn't going to 'save' anybody from anything.

You've got to sense something wrong with your stand, because you can't deal with questions like, 'Is there anything you wouldn't do if Maharaji asked you?' If this trip is so great and perfect, how come you can't talk about it in any way other than preaching?

It's time to move on x#%*!

Don't be scared of yourself. Your soul isn't made of snot. It's ok to think about these things.

The party's over.

Anth the Are the Buses Running Yet?

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 15:28:50 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: x#%*!
Subject: A time for introspection.........again
Message:
x#%*!:

So the questions come. Is he God? Is he a prophet like Jesus or Buddha? If as Michael says he is just human being, then is he a charismatic teacher, or some wizard of oz like character with a deeper understanding of the map of the human heart?

Maybe you need to trust your gut on this one. You're overlooking a few things in your consideration of evidence. First, *good* charismatic leaders don't lie about stuff that's of such critical significance to their mission. George Washington wasn't a liar. Second, what's at stake here is a standard. The rhetoric that you found so inspiring was all plagiarized from an ancient tradition. Your worship, however satisfying, was delusionary at best. Are you seriously grateful for being deluded? There is no consistent reason to think that the benefits in your life have any real link to Maharaji. Examine them carefully. And finally, you don't walk away and leave the planet vulnerable to evil, however good it makes you feel. The claim to a spiritual portfolio has to be connected to conduct, and to an openness that allows people the sovereignty to leave, if we are to be able to discriminate between evil and good. You can't finesse this. It's pretty stark.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:38:12 (GMT)
From: x#%*!
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: A time for introspection.........again
Message:
Scott, just a few things:

First of all you don’t know George Washington wasn’t a liar. You don’t know the “lies” he may have told to survive as a leader. As a matter of fact I recall hearing some poop on him recently that shows him not to be the pinnacle of decency we are lead to believe he was. If he were to have been put under the same level of scrutiny as Maharaji is today how do you think he would have fared? Would that take away from any of the good he accomplished?

Second, is lying always bad? Doctors lie to patients all the time. Is that good or bad? Parents lie to children all the time is that good or bad? A friend of mine told their daughter the truth about an incident in her life and as a result the child lost complete respect for her. Was that good?

Third, what has Maharaji lied about? That he is or is not God? As I pointed out in my post, I don’t think that question is the kind that can be answered in absolute terms of he is or he isn’t. Besides, it appears to me he got caught carrying a story he inherited, and at a certain point decided to clarify the issue in his own terms. Is that lying?

Fourth, there is nothing I’ve seen that is evil about Maharaji. Hate is evil. Ignorance of the truth is evil. Subjugation of the free will of others for one’s own benefit is evil. He is none of those things, and that is underscored in Michael’s posts.

Fifth, if someone brings something positive into the world to many but a small group of people takes issue with it, is that evil? As I said in my post, the net result of my involvement with Maharaji has been more love, more kindness, more respect, more wisdom. That’s pretty positive stuff, and I would venture to say that whether they still practise or not, most people who have received Knowledge have come away enriched in some way. But there’s a vocal few who feel they haven’t. Hey, it’s hard to please everybody.

Sixth, for such a smart guy, how come you can be so be so myopic sometimes?

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Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 14:12:09 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: x#%*!
Subject: A time for lying...no.
Message:
x#%*!

Ahoy there. Can you hear me down there in your cult? Here's something we pretty much agree on up here,

'Lying in bad. It is wrong. You shouldn't tell lies.'

It goes along with that other stuff we've been trying to establish here for the past 100,000 years or so, such as, 'Don't kill each other.' 'Don't steal from each other.' That kind of stuff, that is generally thought to be the correct values to pass on to our children.

Your justification for lying is weak and feeble. It's been eroded and weakened in the cult, by stretching and twisting, because you fit everything around your belief that Maharaji is this 'Perfect Master' character.

All those examples you give above can be dealt with much more sensitively than by lying.

What else can you justify? Murder?

Maybe you should start questioning some of the lies you've been telling yourself for the past how many years.

Anth the Made It Over the Fence, Come in In the Water's Lovely. It's an experience. I can't really put it into words, if you know what I mean.

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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 01:00:45 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: x#%*!
Subject: Try a little inspection, while you're at it.
Message:
Re: First of all you don’t know George Washington wasn’t a liar. You don’t know the “lies” he may have told to survive as a leader.

Yup, I do. We know a lot about Washington. He wasn't a paragon of virtue. No one is. But he never tried to hang onto power, and allowed the power of his own charisma to be institutionalized in the new nation. He also never padded his resume by holding that he was God. Indeed, he often suppressed his own distaste for some of his colleagues because we was well aware of the role he was playing, and the impact he could have on the practice of peaceful transition of power.

Second, is lying always bad? Doctors lie to patients all the time. Is that good or bad? Parents lie to children all the time is that good or bad? A friend of mine told their daughter the truth about an incident in her life and as a result the child lost complete respect for her. Was that good?

Ahh... I see. So lying is good then. When has he ever dealt honestly and sincerely with the fact that he misrepresented himself as the MAJOR DEITY. Caligula did that kind of crap. Sane and ethical people don't. And, I might add, sane and ethical people don't dismiss that sort of crap as though it was a white lie to avoid telling someone they have a terminal illness. BIG LIE: Hitler, Caligula, etc., etc. little lie: your wife and your family physician. No wonder you won't give your name.

Third, what has Maharaji lied about? That he is or is not God? As I pointed out in my post, I don’t think that question is the kind that can be answered in absolute terms of he is or he isn’t.

Huh? I have a 16 inch pens. How big is an inch? Yeah baby! BTW, I found some marbles that might belong to you.

Fourth, there is nothing I’ve seen that is evil about Maharaji. Hate is evil. Ignorance of the truth is evil. Subjugation of the free will of others for one’s own benefit is evil. He is none of those things, and that is underscored in Michael’s posts.

Michael, apparently, can't reason very well when it comes to sincerity and falsehood. He's a post-modern kinda guy. Looking dispassionately at the evidence I think an unbiased observer would have to conclude that he's all of those things.

As I said in my post, the net result of my involvement with Maharaji has been more love, more kindness, more respect, more wisdom.

Not more wisdom, I'm afraid... and self-respect's a little iffy too. Kindness and love, so you say. You say lots of stuff.

Sixth, for such a smart guy, how come you can be so be so myopic sometimes?

That might be why the thing looks 16 inches long to me. Thanks. :-(

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 19:24:02 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: x#%*!
Subject: Can I butt-in?
Message:
x#%*!: I have no idea what Scott will say, but I can answer a few of your questions from my own perspective.

YES, lying is ALWAYS a bad idea (on an interpersonal level, anyway). The fact that someone loses respect for a teller-of-truth is the receiver's problem, not the teller's. In the end, I'll bet that individual will GROW and have greater respect for the truth-teller than they ever would have before. Now, what do you think would happen if the truth-teller hid a lie for all of that time and it was found out by accident? Huh? Whaddaya think?

Lying to childen is good? You must be kidding! NO, my kid has NEVER believed in Santa! It hasn't diminished her love of christmas celebrations one bit! Would I tell her that she was dying from a disease or something? Or that I was dying? YOU BET I WOULD! Of course you have to couch such sensitive and/or potetially traumatic things in words that they can fully comprehend. She knows the grandpa she loved so much died.... she appreciates what death is and KNOWS that grandpa is gone.... permanently. Because she understands the TRUTH, there is no nagging thought that she DROVE him away or anything else of that ilk! She KNOWS she had nothing to do with his very untimely demise! She has no guilty feelings..... WHY????? Because we told her the TRUTH!

BTW, A doctor lies to me and I sue! They don't lie to me! They are aware of my desire to 'know,' in advance. They know the result if they lie to me..... it's guaranteed!

Oh yeah, George never claimed to be G.O.D! In fact, when offered the title of 'king,' he just about went hermitile!

Your statement that, '....Subjugation of the free will of others for one’s own benefit is evil...' clearly describes M's actions! How else would you explain his statement concerning not practicing K once you receive it? Remember the rotting vege's????? Remember the shattering into a million pieces????? NO, NO THREAT THERE!!!!! Get real, x#%*! Just as clearly, he has benefitted handsomely from this subjugation (threat). He has more money than he knows what to do with..... So, out of your own mouth and his own mouth comes the requisite damning evidence of evil.

Last, but certainly not least, you claim that you are more wise and more compassionate, etc. I won't dispute that claim, but as a whole I can't agree that most premies are this way. Why? Because I see NO compassionate action taking place from the premie-camp! As a group, premies could (if the numbers were as high as claimed) be an incredibly powerful force for good..... if they actually DID anything! If you want to sell your religion to a starving person, believe me, they won't listen until you fill their bellies! If M is so compassionate, why doesn't he sell-off the things that are unnecessary to his mission and give the money to the poor sots that need it the most. Some of those people might even be premies.... If premies, as a whole, are so compassionate, why don't they build an organization to really DO something about all the suffering.... you know..... put all that wisdom and compassion to work!

Again, YOU may well be doing some of this stuff..... that's why I won't impune your statement concerning compassion. But, if you really are doing this stuff..... you are one of the VERY FEW! That alone doesn't speak very well for M or K.

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Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 14:29:26 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Well said Mike. (nt)
Message:
no tea
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 22:32:03 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Let's dis George!
Message:
Mike,

It seems every other cult figure gets dissed around here, so let's do George Washington, why don't we. George Washington was a rich sumbitch who got together with other rich sumbitches to chase the Brits asses out of America. He did it by the blood of a lot of poor sumbitches, those of who survived had nothing to show for it when it was all over, not even the fucking right to vote!

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 22:35:53 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Good point.... :-) (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 00:22:07 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Nothing personal, Mike
Message:
I know you served your country in the armed forces, and am, personally, grateful that you did. I just get tired of all these aristocrats being heroified, goddam nearly deified, when the only heroes in ANY war were the ones sleeping in the foxholes and getting drenched in the ambushes.
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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 00:44:23 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: No offense taken.... :-)
Message:
Jerry: I knew you weren't aiming that at me. No, I don't deify those guys. They were people that did what you and I would likely do under the same circumstances. They didn't like the king and they didn't like being taxed..... hmmmmmm sounds familiar, no? he he he :-).

Thanks for the compliment, I accept in the way it was intended. For the guys that I know and can, to some degree, speak for: It was our honor to serve! We'd do it again, in a fast second, if we were required!

No, that isn't patronizing..... it's really the way we feel. When we think of the country, we aren't thinking of the fools on the hill.... we are thinking of the PEOPLE, some of whom I had the honor to serve with, some of whom kept the home-front ready for our return. Thanks, Jerry!

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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 03:32:57 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Good, none meant
Message:
For the guys that I know and can, to some degree, speak for: It was our honor to serve! We'd do it again, in a fast second, if we were required!

I respect you for that, Mike, although I have to admit I don't necessarilly understand it. It seems to me that wars are generally fought because some rich bastard has got a beef with some other rich bastard; at least that's what it looks like the American Revolution was all about. If the British monarchy had given the rich colonists, like our fearless leader, George Washington, more leniency in who they were going to export their goods to, it's doubtful the Revolution ever would have happenned. And it was guys like YOU, the ones who were on the frontline risking their lives, and dying, that got nothing for it. Ain't THAT a bitch!

Here's what one soldier of the Revolution, a lieutenant wounded at Bunker Hill had to say:

I was a shoemaker, and got my living by my labor. When this rebellion came on, I saw some of my neighbors got into commission, who were no better than myself. I was very ambitious, and did not like those men above me. I was asked to enlist, as a private soldier... I offered to enlist upon having a Lieutenants Commission; which was granted. I imagined myself now in the way of promotion: if I was killed in battle, there would be an end of me, but if my captain was killed, I should rise in rank, and should still have a chance to rise higher. These sir, were the only motives of my entering into the service; for as to the dispute between Great Britain and the Colonies, I know nothing of it...

What do you think, Mike? Is our fine lieutenant the norm or an anomaly. Whatever, I think he's at least got a good reason for fighting; there's something in it for him. That quote was from a book called A People's History Of The United States by Howard Zinn. I highly recommend it, especially for guys like yourself, who put their necks on the line.

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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 09:25:26 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Good, none meant
Message:
Jerry:

I daresay there are lots of reasons that people go to war. It should be noted that Zinn's book belongs to a certain genre of revisionist history that has it's own problems of credibility. It's fair to ask what his agenda might be, beyond the stories he shares. And why don't they reflect the same kinds of motivations as those delineated with at least equal clarity by Ambrose and Ernie Pyle for WWII?

Anyway, nothing would have happened had not some leaders stepped forward, whatever their reasons. And the fact is that they didn't take the opportunity to establish a dictatorship, or a monarchy, which might have served their selfish ends better. Instead they began a completely new sort of country, based on an entirely new and untried ideal. You've a right to be revisionist, but these were pretty exceptional men all around. And the 'different sort of soldier' that Ambrose talks about, had it's origins in that war of independence. They weren't following kings or noblemen, and they new it.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 13:35:03 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: This revisionism is good
Message:
It should be noted that Zinn's book belongs to a certain genre of revisionist history that has it's own problems of credibility.

Yeah, I'd say it's revisionist. It looks at history from the viewpoint of the common person, rather than glorifying the wealthy who exploited them. What problems of credibility might that be, did he misquote somebody?

And why don't they reflect the same kinds of motivations as those delineated with at least equal clarity by Ambrose and Ernie Pyle for WWII?

Who's Ambrose? Ernie Pyle, I've heard of. He showed the misery of a soldier's life in combat. How would you say he was at odds with Zinn? I don't see it.

And the fact is that they didn't take the opportunity to establish a dictatorship, or a monarchy, which might have served their selfish ends better.

The operative word is they. They had a much better idea, where they all could benefit from exploitation; democracy for the rich. You do realize that you had to be male and a landowner to secure the right to vote, I'm sure. And you do know where they got their land and how, I'm also sure, by wiping out indigenous people who were more than willing to share it.

You've a right to be revisionist, but these were pretty exceptional men all around.

They were in it for themselves. The very individual who wrote the declaration of independence was a slaveowner.

And the 'different sort of soldier' that Ambrose talks about, had it's origins in that war of independence. They weren't following kings or noblemen, and they new it.

I'd like to know more about this 'different sort of soldier' that Ambrose talks about. Any leads? I strongly suspect it's just propaganda that shows how 'glorious' it was to be a rebel warrior. They might as well have been following kings and noblemen. It's not as if they got a better deal from wealthy aristocrats.

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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 18:39:43 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: some of it is just distortion
Message:
Jerry:

It looks at history from the viewpoint of the common person, rather than glorifying the wealthy who exploited them. What problems of credibility might that be, did he misquote somebody?

Selection bias for one thing, and using a qualitative methodology designed for constructing theories as 'proof' of a general thesis. The fact is that valid statistical analysis, in the form of social mobility, does not support the thesis.

Who's Ambrose? Ernie Pyle, I've heard of. He showed the misery of a soldier's life in combat. How would you say he was at odds with Zinn? I don't see it.

Citizen soldiers, not downtrodden victims of class discrimination. You don't see the difference? Read Ambrose' book. I think you'll get it.

BTW my uncle, Reginald Clizbe, earned an entire chapter in Pyle's Brave Men, became an Airforce Major General, and eventually the Vice President of Washington Water Power.

Stephen Ambrose: Citizen soldiers : the U.S. Army from the Normandy beaches to the Bulge to the surrender of Germany, June 7, 1944-May 7, 1945

I'd like to know more about this 'different sort of soldier' that Ambrose talks about. Any leads? I strongly suspect it's just propaganda that shows how 'glorious' it was to be a rebel warrior. They might as well have been following kings and noblemen. It's not as if they got a better deal from wealthy aristocrats.

The GI in WWII was superior to the Nazi soldier because: 1. He was fighting for an ideology he believed in with greater conviction; and 2. he was sufficiently autonomous that he could adapt to changing circumstances on the battlefield and did not have to defend his decisions or await orders.
And I have to say that equating the elites in the US with those of Europe, and especially with regard to the 'deal' they gave the common citizen is just plane propaganda. The difference purely in terms of 'social mobility' has been clearly documented and proven, and not merely with ethnographic studies either.

The operative word is they. They had a much better idea, where they all could benefit from exploitation; democracy for the rich. You do realize that you had to be male and a landowner to secure the right to vote, I'm sure. And you do know where they got their land and how, I'm also sure, by wiping out indigenous people who were more than willing to share it.

So, you figure they could have made the leap from a political culture based on monarchy, to a society based on universal suffrage in one leap? Where did you get your sense of history, from superman comics? It took a thousand years to get a parliament that was able to challenge an absolute monarch. The other flaw in your reasoning is to suppose that the mere existence of elites is evidence of exploitation. Pareto demonstrated that inequality of outcome is inevitable in an open society. The issue is only how quickly people can move from one stratum to another, and whether that movement is based on actual merit.

They were in it for themselves. The very individual who wrote the declaration of independence was a slaveowner.

Well, Thomas Jefferson was clearly not as ethical or moral in that area as George Mason, was he? It's not as though many white men other than a Quaker would have eschewed slave ownership at the time, wealthy or poor. Anyway, the founders weren't motivated exclusively by personal gain or greed, else they'd have established a system that left them more securely ensconced. The fact is that many of the original founders ended up bankrupt, or nearly so... including Jefferson. If they were in it solely for themselves they were sorely incompetent about realizing the objective.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 20:31:34 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: some of it is just distortion
Message:
Where did you get your sense of history, from superman comics?

As a matter of fact... but let's not go there. We're talking about our founding fathers, here, aren't we, and what kind of men they were? They weren't the 'exceptional' men you claim them to be. They owned slaves, slaughtered Indians, oppressed women, and made all the rules to benefit themselves. Nowhere was it in their plan that the common man would, one day, rise to their level, anymore than a king or a nobleman had plans for elevating the peasants.

Call me myopic if you will, but from what I can see, in this world, there's the poor, and then there's the rich who exploit them. Our founding fathers were no different. If you want to say they were 'nicer' exploiters than their counterparts across the sea, I think you're only kidding yourself. Zinn got it right. Think of him what you want. To me, he's a breath of fresh air.

As for the American GI, yeah, propaganda goes a long way toward making you want to serve your country. I, myself, and you too, got a healthy dose of it during the Vietnam war. I sure wanted to kill some bastard commies for the greater glory of freedom and democracy. Didn't you? Concerning the GI in WW2; Who says he fought with more conviction than the German soldier? Tell that to the Luftwaffe when they were outnumbered a hundred to one toward the end of the war, and were nearly certain to die with each mission they flew. They still went up, knowing full well the odds against them only increased every time they did.

It took a lot more courage and conviction for the Germans, and Japanese, I might add, to continue fighting, as the war neared it's conclusion, than it did for the Allies. Why do you think we dropped the bomb? Nobody wanted to take on the Japanese on their home turf. They were certain to fight to the last man.

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Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 06:06:07 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: some of it is just distortion
Message:
Jerry:

I suppose there is some personal gratification in the conviction that the rich are always opressors of the poor... but that probably leaves you with the choice of whether to be poor and righteous or rich and evil. Furthermore, if you're seeking a just world it leaves you with only the option of equality of condition. Easy to prove that the only way that could come about would be if everyone were dead.

If you insist on equality of opportunity, as you should, then you're guaranteed inequality of condition. Otherwise you're believing in a fantasy that's about as real as Maharaji's 'Divine City.' A 'floor' and a 'ceiling' are workable, under a system of social capitalism... but you'd still have inequalities. Maybe not as big as we have now, but big enough that there'd still be 'rich' and 'not-so-rich.' I find that acceptable, to be quite frank. We could have more justice than we have now, but the ideal you have in mind would lead us to hell; hell being a place where either a pair of shoes costs a year's wages, or you and your friends are all living in a rathole in Siberia.

Nowhere was it in their plan that the common man would, one day, rise to their level, anymore than a king or a nobleman had plans for elevating the peasants.

In fact, that was precisely the plan. Read Madison's contributions to the Federalist Papers. No offense, but you have a 'thought virus' that needs to be exorcised.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 15:58:15 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Ever hear of Shays' Rebellion
Message:
Scott,

I'm not looking for gratification, and I don't know what, or even if there's a solution to the rift between rich and poor. At this particular juncture, I'm just looking to cut the founding fathers down to size. They deserve the adulation they've been awarded as much as Maharaji or Reverend Moon. People who believe they do are just as brainwashed as the disciples of these latter two.

James Madison was a slaveholder in Virginia who owned the biggest slave plantations in all the thirteen colonies. He was deeply disturbed by the insurrection of farmers in Massachusetts known as Shays' rebellion, where unjustly treated farmers formed an armed militia in protest, and were having laws such as the Riot Act enacted, which freed debtors who were being unjustly held in prison. Madison figured, as did Hamilton, another author of the Federalists Papers, that if there was a body of legislature that represented all thirteen states, uprisings as Shays' rebellion would be easier to quell.

In Madison's own words, A rage for paper money, for an abolition of debts, for an equal division of property, or for any other improper or wickded project, will be less apt to pervade the whole body of the Union than a particular member of it. Or as Hamilton stated, in direct reference to Shays' Rebellion, that the new Union would be able to repress domestic faction and insurrection... The tempestuous situation from which Massachusetts has scarcely emerged evinces that dangers of this kind are not merely speculative.

So much for their plans to elevate the commoner to their stature.

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 20:09:29 (GMT)
From: x#%*!
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Do I have a choice?
Message:
YES, lying is ALWAYS a bad idea (on an interpersonal level, anyway).

Mike, I understand the pride you take in your assertions throughout your post of decisively upholding virtues deemed to be admirable……honesty being one of them. There was a time when I would have been just as headstrong in my assertions. Unfortunately the application of such virtues in real life causes the line between right and wrong to blur somewhat. For example, this mother’s child ran away from home as a result of the information. Can you imagine how helpless my friend feels? Can you imagine how useless in alleviating her pain it would be to say to her lines like, “I'll bet that individual will GROW and have greater respect for the truth-teller than they ever would have before”. If her 15 year-old daughter ends up as a result with the wrong crowd and turns to drugs or prostitution, or worse, are you going to tell me with a straight face it was all for the best?

No Mike. I am not the naïve idealist I was at one time. There are indeed times when honesty is NOT the best policy.

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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 09:39:47 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: x#%*!
Subject: But look, this is beside the point.
Message:
x#%*!:

No Mike. I am not the naïve idealist I was at one time. There are indeed times when honesty is NOT the best policy.

Whatever.
BIG LIE: Caligula, Hitler, Stalin
little lie: my mom, some physiscians, some counselors, some people who lie about their penis size or the fact that they wear a toupe.

Propagation of the notion that you're a messiah, in order to rationalize an income producing machine, belongs to the first category... regardless of your position on the second. You do know how to make a distinction, don't you? If not, you'll follow anyone. Read what some of the Georgians are now saying about that wonderful person, Joe Stalin. You could have ripped a page from their book.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 20:47:59 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: x#%*!
Subject: Actually, you do!
Message:
x#%*!: I'm sorry to hear about that, but I suspect that there was a 'hidden' problem that neither you nor I know about. Maybe it was a now-revealed lie. Maybe it's in the way the 'truth' was presented. If people took the same care telling the truth as they do trying to craft a lie, I don't think that would be a problem.

It's not idealism we're talking about here. It really is practicality. Remembering lies is hard. No one benefits from them, either. Our parents wanted my generation to stay away from ALL drugs..... so what did they do (as a generation)? They told us that marijuana would split chromosomes, they told us that LSD would mess them up too. They went to great lengths, including a particularly memorable event on the ASU campus in my younger years. A small group of doctors were talking about LSD babies and were showing pictures of them at a symposium! Pretty gross, actually. One problem, though..... Another doctor (a friend of my family as it turned out) stood up and said, 'THOSE ARE NOT LSD BABIES, they are pictures of thalidomide babies and I took those pictures!!!!!!!!!' Needless to say, the old breaks-chromosomes issue was pretty much dead..... SO was any belief, by my generation, that ANYTHING they said about ANY drug was true! I shit you not..... it had a really dramatic effect! Exactly the opposite effect that was desired by my parent's generation. WHY? Because they LIED about the physical and psychological impact of SOME drugs. LIES...LIES....LIES! So, when they said things like the meth-rush is really capillaries breaking in your brain, no one and I MEAN NO ONE believed it! Yet, it was and is the absolute truth! Tell me again how lying helped in this situation. I can't seem to make a positive connection here! BTW, A very good friend of mine died because he didn't believe the truth about meth..... he thought they were lying..... now he can't think at all.... he's DEAD! When they did the autopsy, his brain flowed out of the holes that were drilled to begin the procedure. A nice picture for a person of my tender years back then. Those LYING DOCTORS, that I talked about, killed my friend just as surely as if they had pulled a trigger! AGAIN, tell me how telling a lie helped here!

You know what my biggest concern is? That my daughter is being fed the same shit that I was about SOME drugs and that she'll discover that it isn't true and that I'll lose her because of it! AM I going to see to it that she isn't filled with damned lies? YOU CAN BET YOU ROSY ASS I WILL! I don't want her to think for a single moment that we lied about crack just because someone lies about the dangers of marijuana. The only danger of pot use is that it is illegal and a felony in most states. THAT is the truth and you know what? She believes me and she doesn't want to do it! She's a good kid! She deserves the truth! She's a human being, dammit!

I've made my mistakes, I've done stupid things and I've taken hits for them. Trying to tell the truth, always, is a good goal (IMHO). It's gotten me out of more trouble than it EVER got me into..... that's a FACT! It's not an 'ideal,' it's a necessity! The truth can be pretty ugly, but it's the truth...... bottom line.

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 21:31:11 (GMT)
From: x#%*!
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Actually, you do!
Message:
I agree Mike, it always feels better to be able to tell the truth. My point is there are times when you have to ask whether or not the person you are being honest with can bear the weight of the truth. If they can't I believe it is the responsibility of the person to exercise good judgement. And as you say, good judgement in most cases is to be honest.
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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 00:32:30 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: x#%*!
Subject: Actually, you do!
Message:

So are you saying current premies can't take the truth about Maharaji?

John.

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 20:38:56 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: x#%*!
Subject: not telling information vs lying
Message:
If this mother did not tell this probably unnecessary information to her child, that would not have been lying.

I wouldn't describe claiming to be God in human form as a white lie. In Prem Rawat's case, maybe it's partly a lie, partly a delusion, given that people treated him like a god from an early age. The issue here is mostly that it is a false statement. 'God in human form' is a strong claim, it doesn't just mean a manifestation of God, we could all claim that. He meant something exclusive, that he was God in human form and we are not. He didn't mean 'fully enlightened' either. He said that if a premie fully realized Knowledge, they still wouldn't be 'Guru Maharaj Ji'. Besides, he does not appear to be 'fully enlightened'.

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 20:47:01 (GMT)
From: x#%*!
Email: None
To: G
Subject: In this case it would have been an outright lie
Message:
My friend's daughter asked her mother point blank if she had divulged some personal information to someone. My friend was honest and said yes. If she were to do it over again she WOULD NOT tell the truth. And I might say neither you or anybody else (including me) are in a position to second guess her on this.
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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 00:52:03 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: x#%*!
Subject: Talking about deceit, r u 'Url'? 'Nil'? Tuff?
Message:
Very funny to see you carry on this conversation about lies of commission and ommission and all the while I'm trying to get you to answer this simplest of questions.

Well?

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 21:45:25 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: x#%*!
Subject: you didn't say that before
Message:
So you are saying that there are white lies. I don't know the situation so I can't comment on it. Personally, in a few cases I think there are. In the case of Maharaji, I don't think it's really justified. He still is implying that he's more than just an inspiring teacher. The thing is, wouldn't it be good for Maharaji to help people move away from depending on believing that he is more than human? Whatever experience there is would still be there if people realised it's right within them (like the musk deer story). A bridge is for crossing over, why stop in the middle?
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 11:53:49 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: x#%*!
Subject: A time for introspection.........again
Message:
Bottom line is, what he gave me has stood the test of half my life.

But the question now becomes is what he gave you actually what you gave yourself through him? Dettmers started out seeing M one way, and then when he got closer, another. And I don't think he's the only one this happenned to. It, apparently, happenned to Mishler too. Who else? Certainly, there must be others.

So, the question becomes that age old one we were all encouraged to ask, 'Who is Guru Maharaji?' If people see him one way when he's a distant figure on a stage, and another when they have the opportunity to work closely with him, doesn't that tell you something? So, who is Guru Maharaji, X#? Are you seeing him for who he is, or for what you've made him?

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 00:39:02 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: x#%*!
Subject: A thing to consider
Message:
First let me commend you for being open to challenging your belief that he is in actuality the higher power in person. A thing to consider, when listening to Maharaji, do you think it's wise to simply believe everything he says, or is it wiser to take what he says with a grain of salt, and have this be an active process of discrimination? After all, he is a human being, and most likely not the higher power in person.
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 01:34:58 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: x#%*!
Subject: Why?
Message:
Why do you visit this Forum? Is for info about M? To question your feelings? To rile exes?
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 12:05:10 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Why?
Message:
I liked the message in this tread.
I also has posted here sometimes. The reason is that I wanted to expose some of the obious lies about Maharaji, also hopefully to make the understanding that the picture is not completely black and white by trying to give a little more balanced perspective of things. A premie posting here, have at least 10 oponents and is regarded not in a very nice way. I also would say that I would hope that the integrity and level of honesty would rise and that people should not write what is rumours as if it was the truth.
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 15:50:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Why , Bjorn?
Message:
You don't think that exes should post rumours here?

Tell me, Bjorn, extacly how you would advise us to learn the truth about Maharaji. What should we do? And once we've learned certain things for sure -- such as the indisputable fact that, at some point anyway, he's had a drinking problem (far beyond rumour, this fact has been established by several first hand accounts) or smokes dope (same thing) -- what should we do with them?

How would they handle something like this in Norway?

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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 08:13:34 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That is why , Jim!
Message:
BTW Jim, thanks you for posting conversations with Micheal and Joan. Whatever the outcome would have been, I think that was great and fair of you.

In Norway there was a popular song a few years ago. The theme were something like this
'If you see everything in black and white, you have 't understood a thing.'

To me it seems like people put on different glasses. Here there are the premies glasses, where everything is fine. Then
there are the expremie glasses where everything is absoultely rotten.

I choose to think that the reality is somewhere in between.

What Maharaji is doing in his personal life, I think is none of my business.

About 15 years ago there where a program in Finland. A Norwegian premie asked Maharaji: I've heard rumours that you use drug and drink alchohol. What do you have to say to that'

I cant excactly remember Maharajis words, but I think he neither denied it nor admitted it. He was pretty clear and said something about that he offer this Knowlegde and that each person is responsible for what they are doing. As far as I remember he also said that the point is to enjoy this life. (like he always says)

Otherwise I stand for what I have written. If people enjoy this Knowledge fine. If they don't, I cant do a thing about it.

But everybody has the right to believe whatever they believe.

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Date: Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 02:53:14 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: his personal life
Message:
What Maharaji is doing in his personal life, I think is none of my business.

If he were a total stranger, that would be true. But Maharaji claims to be 'The Master', the one who can show you the way, a shining example of what 'Knowledge' can offer, an inspiring teacher, the one who owns the golden bowl that only he knows what to do with, etc. etc. I would say that he still claims to be fully enlightened, at least he implies it. Before he said he was God incarnate.

Is evidence that he is not what he claims another person's business? It is if that person is a 'student' of his or is considering becoming a 'student' of his. A drinking problem (not just drinking) and drug abuse is proof of these claims being false. It's a matter of due diligence. For example, if I wanted to learn music, I would want to know that my teacher knows music. If he knows enlightenment, contentment, self awareness, etc., why would he need alcohol and drugs? If I knew this a long time ago, I would have left him. There also the hypocrisy of him telling people not to do things while he himself is doing them. Do as I say, not as I do. Sure.

What business was it of his whether I was having sex, drinking, using drugs, ...? (it's a long list) What, it's ok for him to do all this but not ok for the premies? And note, the ashram still exists in India. Do the renunciate ashram premies in India know about this? I doubt it.

Otherwise I stand for what I have written. If people enjoy this Knowledge fine. If they don't, I cant do a thing about it.

There is a difference between 'Knowledge' meaning practicing the meditation techniques and 'Knowledge' meaning being a student (read devotee) of Maharaji. It's very convenient to have two meanings that you can flip-flop between. Which one are you referring to? Which one was he referring to?

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 15:30:17 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: RE
Message:
If its all obvious lies...why do you need to point that out?
Do you like debating? Do you like the challenge of facing such opposition?
Are you concerned this Forum is undermining your beliefs?
Have you gained any information about M and others around him?
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 08:18:13 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Why?
Message:
That's a lot of 'whys?' to throw at someone who has just poured out their thoughts in a quite clear way.

It seems obvious that x#%*!) is engaged in sincerely questioning his or her understanding of Maharaji.
I am surprised that you could read those thoughtful words and construe that they may be designed to 'rile exes'. I detected no such cynicism.
Would you prefer that this forum was exclusively for those people who hold so-called 'exes' viewpoints? If so why?

I was thinking last night that it was surprising that more premies have not written in to beg Michael Dettmers to put paid to the 'malicious lies' that abound on this site. Instead some 'people with knowledge' obviously find his testimony, so far, somewhat thought provoking.

I too have undergone some introspection and thoughts about the concept of a Perfect master much along the same lines as x#%*!). I agree that people appear to have a 'generic slot' for a human/divine teacher to fill. I would however add that I suspect that this is learned and not a part of nature.

One has only to observe the enormous cultural programming that the vast majority of people get from society with regard to reinforcing the concept of Avatars, to see how convenient it is to expect a person to appear who embodies a superior power. i know that this expectation/hope was absolutely there in myself when I heard about Maharaji. He certainly seemed to fit the bill at the time. More later- Gotta go to work!

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 16:00:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Come off it, Anon
Message:
That's a lot of 'whys?' to throw at someone who has just poured out their thoughts in a quite clear way.
It seems obvious that x#%*!) is engaged in sincerely questioning his or her understanding of Maharaji.
I am surprised that you could read those thoughtful words and construe that they may be designed to 'rile exes'. I detected no such cynicism.
Would you prefer that this forum was exclusively for those people who hold so-called 'exes' viewpoints? If so why?

Where have you been, Anon? This prick -- and I use the word judiciously -- has been one rude motherfucker to everyone who's tried to converse with him for the past month. So now he drops his guard down a bit and Daneane sees an opportunity to ask him an honest question that, perhaps, for the first time he'd be willing to deal with squarely, given his current apparent 'sincerity'. The question was fair, timely and appropriate.

I was thinking last night that it was surprising that more premies have not written in to beg Michael Dettmers to put paid to the 'malicious lies' that abound on this site. Instead some 'people with knowledge' obviously find his testimony, so far, somewhat thought provoking.

Good point.

One has only to observe the enormous cultural programming that the vast majority of people get from society with regard to reinforcing the concept of Avatars, to see how convenient it is to expect a person to appear who embodies a superior power.

What drug are you on this morning? Must be something pretty powerful if your'e actually hallucinating that you can jump from 'here' to 'there' like that.

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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 09:59:57 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Come off it, Anon
Message:
Jim, Anon:

One has only to observe the enormous cultural programming that the vast majority of people get from society with regard to reinforcing the concept of Avatars, to see how convenient it is to expect a person to appear who embodies a superior power.

What drug are you on this morning? Must be something pretty powerful if your'e actually hallucinating that you can jump from 'here' to 'there' like that.

Look, it's just plain old charismatic leadership. I don't think there's any more programming now than in the past. Maybe even less. It wouldn't matter anyway. Let's not deceive ourselves. The only issue is whether we're able to hold onto enough discrimination and objectivity to be able to tell the good guys from the bad. I'm trying to work out if there's any real chance of our being able to do that, but clearly if most people are like 'x#%*!' then there isn't.

It's an issue of standards, and the deciding factor for me. Acceptance of Maharaji as some sort of benevolent, well-intended, but minorly flawed leader just implies a universe that wouldn't be able to distinguish between rape/incest/murder and self defense. It's that simple. I don't even have anything special against Maharaji.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:46:43 (GMT)
From: x#%*!
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey mr. pot, looks who's calling the kettle black
Message:
Ahem.......er, scuze me sir but you're in no position to lecture anyone about rudeness. As to whom I've been so called rude to, I'll grant that in some cases I've returned rudeness for rudeness. In that regard you almost ALWAYS get rudeness from me.

I just haven't learned this 'other cheek' thing yet.........

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 19:36:48 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: x#%*!
Subject: And how long have you been practicing?
Message:
x#%*!: '....I just haven't learned this 'other cheek' thing yet.........'

How long have you been a premie???????? Wouldn't you think that you'd be pretty good at this 'other cheek' thing by now? That is one of the very points that we are tryin to make..... YOU really haven't changed. You've been led to believe that you have somehow become sanctified, but in reality you are no better off than most. I know many NON-PREMIES, and I do mean MANY, that are REALLY GOOD at this 'other cheek' stuff. Maybe you should ask them their secret? I guarantee that it wouldn't cost you a dime......

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:49:49 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: x#%*!
Subject: Why are you afraid to answer, @#?
Message:
I've asked you several times now, have you ever posted here under another name or not? If so, what name?
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 20:01:24 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You know, it's URL and NIL..... He won't deny it.
Message:
I would tell him myself, and have, but you see, to URL/Nil/X#%!, I don't count, don't even exist, I guess.
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 20:11:57 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Question: Is he also Jack Tuff?
Message:
Joe,

While it's true that you don't count I'm willing to hash this around with you for a moment. I, too, think URL, NIL and @#& are one and the same. I just don't know why I think that. Do you?

Also, it struck me some time ago that URL / NIL sounded a lot like Jack Tuff, my old ashram buddy and community coordinator. What sayest thou?

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 21:06:24 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I never thought of that, but I would say no (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 21:16:06 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Although I think he IS Canadian.....nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 00:11:30 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Why?
Message:
Joe,

If he's Canadian my hunch is supported by some evidence.

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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 02:43:11 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Spelling...
Message:
I think I recall 'favourite' and 'colour'. But he's not British, so I would suspect Canadian. He posts at the wrong time to be Australian (or British).
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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 03:06:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Well I knew that, I just pitched you a lob ball
Message:
Joe,

I knew that it must be the spelling. Just that you've been taking such a beating here by @#$% I wanted to give you a moment. I wanted to help you feel a little smart again. How's it going anyway? You alright?

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 20:03:35 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: JW, I've seen you count.... I know you count!
Message:
For what it's worth..... he's most definitely wrong! he he he :-)
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 21:14:04 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Thanks and something nice about nil/url/x#%*!
Message:
One thing about this guy is that he doesn't out and out lie. I confronted him once when he was in url mode and he didn't deny that he was also nil. I doubt he will lie this time either. Actually, I think this guy has a strong sense of honesty, which I think many premies, all of us exes included, have. But at the same time, the obfuscation is obvious to everyone but him. He won't lie, but he will duck and cover whenever he can and avoid at all cost ever criticizing Maharaji or his cult. It's the deep programming, so deep and he doesn't even realize how dishonest it is.

For example, like most premies, he knows that Maharaji's drinking and womanizing are widely known and believed among the premies. He knows that Maharaji claimed to be god and now denies it. He knows this stuff, and he won't actually lie about it, but he's got to try to spin it nonetheless. I actually feel for him. It must be a horrible place to have to live in.

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 23:54:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: OK, let's test it -- x#%*! , are you 'Url'? AND..
Message:
are you 'Nil'?

And are you really Jack Tuff?

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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 10:08:26 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: OK, let's test it -- x#%*! , are you 'Url'? AND..
Message:
Jim:

You can't ask him both questions at the same time. He has to be able to not answer one at a time for you to make the inference.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 21:52:48 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: You know, Joe... you are right!
Message:
Well, that was a stupid subject line wasn't it? :-)

If you look at the situation today, they (current premies) may actually have it harder than we did. I know, I know... it sounds stupid, but your point about the 'horrible place to live in' really rings true. I mean, all we had to do was accept that M was god and give him our all. There were, at least to my knowledge, no scandals or anything else of a really unsavory nature to deal with. It was pretty simple..... give me your all and I will give you peace (not an exact quote, obviously). We didn't have to rationalize too much. When the family broke up and when he got married, I think that created a few ripples on the pond. But that's NOTHING like it is now.

NOW, they have to rationalize his incredibly opulent lifestyle, alcohol, drugs, extramarital affairs and much, much more. They have to deal with the recant-as-lord issue, too. Of course, some of that stuff started when we were active, but the hugeness of scale wasn't as obvious as it is today. Other than the ashram-meltdown, which in itself was pretty huge for those involved (duhhhhh!), I would say they have it just as hard (from a rationalization point of view) as we ever did...... maybe harder. I mean, at least we could go out on the streets and PROCLAIM him as the lord of the universe.... they can't even do THAT anymore. I agree with you, it's rough and it's going to get rougher as each year passes by on those that have been in the longest. Joe, you sure do know how to drag the compassion out of a person, you know that? :-)

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:31:36 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Come off it, Anon
Message:
Where have you been, Anon?

OK so I haven't done my background reading.
Excuse me if I have missed something about X%*!'s intent or whatever his name is, I have been reading less posts lately and judged his post in isolation. To me he came across as someone not motivated by the desire to rile. Maybe Daneanes questions are timely and appropriate. I dare say they are from her perspective, however I am not about to make a big issue about his motives and apologise for butting in. I have no desire to defend him although I must say what he says seems quite harmless.

Maybe I am a little weary of seeing potentially interesting debates, communications deteriorate into a brawl because the participants are so oversensitive about the motives of others. I would welcome the day when these things can be discussed without so much mutual suspicion and anger.

I am not being self-righteous about this - I used to be a very angry, venomous, intolerant poster myself. There was even an occasion when my comments spurred Bobby to say 'That makes two nasty motherfuckers - Jim and YOU!' Do you remember that?
I accept that people have a right to be angry. I am not that hypocritical.

I actually seem to find myself getting, at long last, less wound up when discussing Maharaji with premies. If I do sense a lack of communication and an imminent 'satsanging' about to be thrown at me in anger, I retire to a safe distance, since it is so horribly infuriating to attempt a reasonable conversation with someone who is set on not listening to you from the outset and just telling you that you missed the plot..
I do feel angry but I try and nip it in the bud since it feels self destructive and pointless.

What drug are you on this morning? Must be something pretty powerful if your'e actually hallucinating that you can jump from 'here' to 'there' like that.

I am not on anything. Sorry I don't I don't know what you mean.
BTW if I don't reply to any further dialogue it's because I won't be online for a few days. Well done for your interviews too - very interesting reading.

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 12:04:10 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Why?
Message:
I am surprised that you could read those thoughtful words and construe that they may be designed to 'rile exes'. I detected no such cynicism.

I did. That little remark about 'knee-jerk' reactions was almost certainly a dig at exes. He's showing us how cool he is in his reassesments, as compared to us volatile exes. Ain't that right, X#?

Ooh, you're just so cool. Heh,heh.

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 12:01:31 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Anon
Subject: Why?
Message:
Well, look - I can only speak about my own background. The cultural slot is there in the Judaeo-Christian tradition because it's been hammered in by the Catholic (and other) churches for centuries. It's been overrated I'm sure.

Personally, the more human and fallible Jesus appears to be, the more loveable and relateable he is. That's why I enjoyed the movie 'Jesus Christ Superstar' so much.

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 23:30:58 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Why?
Message:
Hi Mili,
I was brought up as a Christian but by the time I was 17 I was well aware of the other religions and their founders and I thought that they must be at least equally as relevant as Christ. A while ago I went on holiday to Israel and checked out the various biblical sites. Needless to say it was a little bit of a stretch of the imagination to picture Jesus as a child in modern Nazareth with it's NATO vehicles and modern commerciality. Nevertheless it brought the bible to life somewhat being there, what with the deserts and all. (The Israelis are really keen on archaeology, so at every turn there is a dig going on-they are kind of mad about discovering their history-another thing that struck me was that they are all armed to the teeth. Some heavy shit going on there of course.) There have been some excellent programmes on the television about the quest for the histoical Jesus. One series hosted by John Romer (an enthusiastic historian and archaeologist) spawned a book called 'Testament' which is very good indeed. A lively read.

I also loved my childhood 'picture-book Jesus' very much. The 'Good Shepherd' gave me great hope and some comfort, especially since the concept of him was presented to me by my very loving mother who had herself a simple and beautiful faith in God which reflected in her life. I later also read the Ramayana and could relate to the 'friendship' aspect that Ram had with Hanuman etc. and the whole drama seemed a micrososm of human life. I think I cherished and held Maharaji as being this kind of potential divine friend. But more or less an 'equal'- as opposed to a stern authoritarian Lord who scares you into living in ashrams etc. who Maharaji seemed to grow more into later in life.
In some ways the young Maharaji (who was a year younger than me-16) became this longed for friend, even if it was a fantasy or a projection on my part. I lived that fantasy and my mystical experiences confirmed that fantasy. Since Maharaji was, in my ideal world , my closest friend, my ideal brother, I felt that to criticism him was not so much a betrayal but more of an expression of 'hey, don't push me around...I'm a child of the universe just like you! I've got my realisations and I don't so much like you bossing me around. I don't honestly care much for your coming on like an old testament God of Hellfire! Anyway who are you to be so beyond criticism mate! '
I felt that I was important to God and that God was my father and I his child and when I looked up into the stars I knew my life had meaning and I had a Wonderful Purpose. It was in this spirit that I approached Maharaji with trust and innocence.

Indeed my realationship and trust in M grew largely from my experiences in meditation. I felt that I was getting in touch more or less with a 'master' or 'God' inside and this felt very real. I used to meditate a lot in nature and I was very blissful. I assumed that M was this 'internal' friend personified. That is how my trust in him grew. I feel that my issue with M is very much about trust actually. When M was young he was less an authoritarian Lord and more the kind of friend I longed for. Almost a mirror image of me actually- Like a child. I related to him externally too and loved him, even though I didn't really know him.
That is why I was inspired to commit my time and eventually to 'sacrifice my life' to being his servant. As that stage of involvement began my disillusionment process had (unbeknownst to me ) also started.

Later the dynamic gradually changed until M became remoter and merely a distant phenomena. M grew into a 'boss' (remember how premies even used to call him 'The Boss'.) I retreated, in my ashram prison, to my inner friend - I think the external M became less like this 'friend' as time passed. His sterness, anger and chastisement hurt me and confused me. The rigid lifestyle he would have me follow, (when I longed for freedom and fun) the remoteness of himself and the boring mundanity of ashram living - the glory of life which I had such a vision of in my childhood faded and was replaced by hopelessness and deep sadness. That my God should become so remote , so surrounded by stiff, heavy people and worse..he seemed to want that. It was very disillusioning. Also I felt abandoned by my friend. How could he let me live my life so far from fun. I longed for the freedom and innocent vision I had had before I even heard of him. The longing for Truth, without any assumption as to the form it would take. That was so pure.

When I initially received Knowledge I gave my heart and soul totally to it and had a wonderful experience of MY God. When I left the satsang hall 20 years later, all I could hear was the echoes of Maharaji's adult voice , screaming and demanding respect and gratitude to his GOD, (him) who I didn't really trust any more. I could no longer give him that gratitude since I had become miserable and confused following him. He made me lose faith in, not only him, but in knowledge as well. For a long time I could not meditate, so strong was the association with unpleasant times.

Back to deities and Jesus.
Frankly, even if Maharaji were the modern equivalent of Jesus, the son of God or whoever..and was stamped, hallmarked as God's chosen-one .. I would still not now be so overawed that I would not judge him by his fruits just like any other man. I critisise M for tolerating appalling sychophants and playing to the ridiculous reverence which people accord him. It's very authoritarian and plays to all the worst parts of human nature in my opinion.

I was thinking in bed last night how Jesus said 'Ye shall know them by their fruits' and I thought 'what are those fruits?' if Jesus had said that to me what would I have actually thought? Premies have always said 'Oh, it's the Knowledge ..' and I kind of noddingly agreed. But last night I really thought about it and I thought-'No, I wouldn't think that...if he had meant that he would have said that. I would say that the clearer meaning of this words is that one can judge a mans' greatness by the effect he has on others

Well I think that Maharaji has had a rather dehumanising effect on people by creating this premieness. When people are around him they are only concerned with him, they often treat each other badly, they are visibly SCARED of him, and premies can be the MOST closed-minded, distant, cold people you could meet. Not because that's who they are, but because they have been drilled into having one heavy precious trip about their Knowledge and Maharaji and they don't give a damn about their own consciences any more. Maharaji and the constant practise of hisknowledge is the only standard they seem to aspire to.

I remember myself once, as a keen young premie, satsanging my brother and he was not really listening and I got quite heavy-I had just come from a Darshan Program- My poor brother who I loved was getting freaked and I was giving him some pretty intense shit. In fact I was being so intense in this satsang that I detached from my own words and actually felt shocked at what was 'coming through me'. Of course I was passing on that righteous authoritarian stuff that M had been screaming at me. God have I listened to some heavy talkers in my time and God forgive me! I have passed on the fear of God to others in my time too with my 'certainty'- conviction and great 'experience'. I started with such sincerity and innocence. This knowledge thing became an excuse to behave in a very inhumane way to people thinking you were doing M's work. I think premies and indeed Maharaji's conviction (conviction being a tool of gtreat power over others) overtook our honesty and integrity. We all got carried away with the experience and burned ourselves and others.

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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 12:38:19 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Thanks Anon!
Message:
You have a gift man! I really relate to your experiences. You give me some hope that this forum really can serve a very worthwhile purpose. You help me feel better and I'm sure that wavering premies would find much encouragement in your intelligent and civilised way of dealing with communicating.

Have a good weekend.Hal.

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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 20:15:26 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: kudos Anon!
Message:
Beautifully written and goes sraight to the heart of the matter.
My own experience of premiedom was rather truncated as I left the ashram one Sunday morning whilst everyone was 'meditating,' six months after recieving nollige. (though I hung on for a little while longer) This was in 1973

I know this may be hard to believe, but I was that innocent too. Heck, I hadn't even experience the divine glories of physical love yet!

I feel fortunate and also deprived in the same breath because I never quite caught on to the meditation. Now I know one can purchase a brain wave training cd and acheive these meditative states in five minutes, but I'm no longer interested.

I do appreciate your talent and sensitivity and would like to meet you in person some day.

Gerry the wwgp

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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 14:27:42 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Thanks Anon!
Message:
Cheers Hal,
if you are the guy who lives in Portugal now (I may have this wrong) please say hi to Bob Dennis from me. Guitar playing friend of Danny Ellis from his days in Dorking and Brighton- that may jog his memory!
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 15:13:48 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: What?
Message:
Mili: '...That's why I enjoyed the movie 'Jesus Christ Superstar' so much....' Huh?

DO you think people 'acted' that way 2000 years ago? I think NOT! Come on, admit it..... You liked that show because it 'marketed' the 'lord' as some flashy, slick, greasy character straight from an ad for Miller and Rhodes. Why.... that characterization of Jesus is just like M today..... WOW, it MUST be true!

You really do LOVE personalities and charisma, don't you?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 21:28:08 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Here's another question, Michael
Message:
Mike,

While I'm happy to get your answers either here or privately I wouldn't mind sharing this question more openly. If you broke ranks with Maharaji over how he represented himself and his 'mission' what do you think of his current presentation? Now, you've told me that you've never seen Maharaji's own web site, nor any of the official premie sites (Enjoying Life With Knowledge, Appreciation, Visions, the new one out of Malaysia, whatever it's called). But I told you about them and showed you how to find them. I got the impression that you haven't looked yet and might never choose to. I told you about Maharaji putting quite a different spin on matters than you might recall. Well here's how he mentions that troubling 'Lord of the Universe' stuff:

Quite a few people wanted to see me as a figurehead. I didn't want to be one and I am not one. A few others saw me as a leader, and I didn't want to be one and I am not one.

Here's how he deal with 'the controversies' and criticism:

I think a lot of people couldn't handle my age. I remember when I was six and would speak, some people claimed it was a tape recorder. That was never the case, but it did make a bad impression on me that those who simply couldn't understand resorted to bizarre explanations. That was the start of the controversies.

I love this quote: 'When you do something right, there will always be those who criticize you; when you do something wrong, there will be no one around to stop you.'

Here's how he explains that he might have made a few mistakes over time:

There I was with a very simple possibility. All the old ways of doing things were yet to be exported to the West. As a young boy, I needed help with disseminating Knowledge, but it was a very different kind of help I was about to encounter.
I wanted things simple, yet they weren't. The effort to simplify continues.

When I came to the West, the possibility of Knowledge existed in one country. Now it exists in 81 countries. Since there was and is no blueprint for accomplishing this, I find myself in the continuous process of simplification, rediscovery, and reinvention.

I love hard work and I love to work hard. Changes happened; evolution was afoot and still is. The changeable changes; the unchangeable stays. The challenge grows ever more challenging and beautiful.

And, of course, my favorite, here's how he sees himself today:

As a successful private investor, he has contributed to start-up companies in several industries.

Okay, so here's my question. It seems that, on the surface at least, Maharaji has done much to remove whatever aspects of his organization that made you think the thing looked a little 'cultish'. I mean, here he is clearly telling us that he never wanted to be a figurehead or even a leader. That was just a bit of a mistake.

So, are you impressed? If so, why haven't you contacted him again in all this time? And if not, why not? Do you think you'll ever talk with Maharaji again? If so, what would you say to him?

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 20:31:16 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Would YOU buy a used car from this man?
Message:
The Maha says he 'never wanted to be a figurehead or even a leader'.

...so how come the 'I am come with so much power...' etc. quote?

How come he LET himself be portrayed as a figurehead for all those years?
He never wanted it?
If he's capable of being honest with himself, he HAS to admit that, not only did he want it, and played along with it back then, but he's STILL playing along with it now, - though denying (or at least keeping shtum) that he ever HAD done in the past.

Would YOU buy a used car from this man?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 22:30:29 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: and some more feedback...
Message:
Michael,
Firstly I have no wish to draw you out into any conversation that you would rather not have but I would like to offer some reaction to what you have said. I expect no response.
You don't know me but I remember you from your days as a 'honcho' (if you will forgive the term). You stayed at our ashram in the UK once and you struck me as affable and quiet, which was a relief considering some of the personalities we catered for.
I have taken some interest in reading the dialogue here generated by your comments. I can relate to your position since I have had some close dealings with Maharaji in the past and although I am no longer a 'premie' in the accepted, orthodox meaning of the word, I retain some appreciation of knowledge and indeed some of the experiences that I had in my time of invovement. I too found Maharaji a kindly and affable chap in my limited direct dealings with him. I was however acutely aware of the enormous power he wielded over others including myself, on another level.

I have however found it important to my integrity and sanity to enjoin others here in expressing some of the misgivings and realisations I have had in my recent years regarding other explanations for the phenomena of Maharaji and Knowledge. Accepting that a rational analysis of Maharaji was an acceptible and relevant exersize in the first place, was not easy, especially since 'knowledge' seemed so inherently irrational( as does Maharaji to some extent). Moreover Maharaji and premies have combined to form a society where there was (and still is I think) a fundamental reluctance, fear even, to use the mind. (largely since the mind has been cast as a fearful, unknown enemy force)

However for the last few years I have felt drawn to seeking some better understanding of the mechanisms that came together to produce the phenomena into which I stumbled as a 17 year old seeker of truth. Thus I have read a lot of history of the movement, argued my points in debate, and attempted to shed some of the fear which, posing as respect, kept me shackled to practising knowedge a bit like an automaton who was condemned to a dwindling appreciation of a process which I found it increasingly hard to not be a bit critical of . I never lost my fundamental appreciation of meditation - just the way it was packaged, what we were 'supposed' to make of it all, and indeed what we 'owed' to the 'giver' of it.

you wrote:

I have no intention of engaging in rumor and gossip. Many of the questions and concerns that have been expressed and debated about Maharaji’s lifestyle are of no concern to me. I have better things to do in my life than to get caught up in such discussions, whether it’s about Bill Clinton, Princess Diana or Maharaji.

This site has received it's fair share of rumours about Maharaji's personal life. His private life is interesting, there's no denying it. I am certain that all premies, for who Maharaji's person is a consuming focus, long for any snippet of tale from his private life. After all, as premies, one tends to find anything he does full of significance and so his every action becomes a potential parable. It is natural therefore that if he drinks, smokes, womanises or indulges in any gross excess, it is only for the general good of the world!

Premies, of course, love the rumour as much as those who think it reflects badly on him. (Actually, most of such rumours I have heard have already been privately accepted as true by the premie community as far as I can see.) But there is still a public-face, group-reaction to not let these rumours be confessed. I would imagine that Maharaji does indeed feel that to have attention drawn to any more lowly examples of his human nature, however innocent, may lessen his impact as a public speaker and Master.
I would say though, that Maharaji's lifestyle surely says something about his integrety. After all a man can be judged quite well by his actions. Surely if one is devoting one's life to a man one is entitled to some knowledge of his 'off-stage' behaviour. One can, after all, judge better whether a man is trustworthy by observing his deeds and my conclusion is that my relationship with him over the years has involved a lot of trust.

Also regarding rumour and gossip, I cannot fail but notice (since you mentioned our Royal Family) that all the much denied rumours that those 'scoundrelous, unprincipled yellow -journalists' put about on the newspapers, all turned out to be true! (Much to the silent embarassment of those who had dimissed those reports as malicious lies!)
Anyway, in my opinion Maharaji needs to embrace his critics and be open about all his activities if he wants to garner real respect. After all, it is hardly criminal to have human weaknesses or whatever. It is wrong though to preach to people about truth and peace etc. if you don't practise it yourself and worse to attempt to cover up ones activities.

In those early days I accepted and practiced all of the ashram’s prescribed protocol, and I enjoyed and derived great personal benefit from doing so.

I think I benefitted in some ways but my assessment of that time in the ashram is that there were some very unethical things going on. It wasn't all roses. Some people got a rawer deal than others depending on a lot of factors. EG. You obviously weren't subjected to the kind of harsh grillings, heavy satsangs and such-like, as the likes of David Smith etc. administered to us ashram applicants. My recollection of some of the rhetoric of the time is that it bordered on abuse. Whilst I can appreciate that you enjoyed the ashram and saw the protocol as something you willingly followed, there are plenty of people who felt distinctly pressurised to adopt this lifestyle and who often sacrificed much to do so. How great was your sacrifice compared to that of someone who gave up family and friends or whatever?.. . I personally felt that the ashram lifestyle deprived me of as much as it gave me 'spiritually'.
My take on it now is that it was essentially a bad thing for me I'm afraid. The fact that an important part of my life was spent innocently being a part of someones 'mistake' is somewhat regrettable. Though I am not losing sleep over it, it is clearly worth seeing that time for what it was and learning from it.

That is why I wanted to get rid of the word “premie.” It is my opinion that you don’t become anything when you receive knowledge, you simply get more in touch with who you really are.

I wouldn't worry about that. Maharaji has quite a habit of changing words so he's probably coming around to it as we speak!

But my recommendations didn’t stop with the closing of the ashrams. I was convinced that
Maharaji needed to re-define his role to better present knowledge to much greater numbers of people.

I have thought about this a lot.
Well, I would tend to agree with you, but how you thought you'd have a hope in hell of convincing Maharaji of that I don't know. It is plain that the whole 'Master' set up is basically autocratic and that you, as a 'servant', were starting to overstep your advisory role and were encroaching on some very important decisions that M would only feel comfortable making himself. M may well have felt his power theatened by coordinators who sought to advise him on key decisions. It is so plain to see that Maharaji was primarily concerned with maintaining his control for whatever reasons.

We mutually agreed that it would be best if I resigned

Excuse me if I play devil's advocate here for a moment Michael. Please don't take offense.
This is the classic way of admitting you have failed- losing-without losing face.
'We have agreed to differ' You had no choice but to resign. You failed to communicate the wisdom of your advice. Actually Maharaji was not interested in your advice, since your proposed changes potentially undermined his authority. That was his main concern. Not the wisdom of your ideas. Your agreement was merely your way of resurrecting some good feeling from the situation and he was glad to see the back of you and your big ideas.
Or did Maharaji have a vision of how to proceed which was better than yours?

I have learned the importance and benefit of distinguishing between a phenomenon and its explanation.

Well, again, don't worry, you're not alone.
Most educated people are sensibly wary of jumping to conclusions about mysteries- especially when someone, with a vested interest, is overly keen to sell their particular explanation for the phenomena.

By not distinguishing between the phenomenon (knowledge) and the interpretation (his role, the structure and the practices), many premies came to the conclusion that Maharaji is the cause or the source of knowledge.

Michael, you trying very hard not to apportion Maharaji any blame for the fact that premies went around thinking he was God. 'It was the stupid premies fault' is a tired line now I'm afraid.
The history is that Maharaji suggested or... rigged it to seem as if...or even 'sincerely believed' that- he was the sole source of knowledge.
Premies came to those conclusions not only because he said that this was how things were, but also because he encouraged them, entreated them, commanded that they should not cultivate doubts. 'leave no room for doubt' etc. Remember?

It is his mission, not mine...

Yes, but why??? Don't you think that knowledge could be presented to the world in a less autocratic way? Could there not be a more democratic and less misleading way to educate the world about the simple phenomena of knowledge?? Is it really his knowledge then?? Clearly he would like us to believe, conclude that it is.

I take responsibility for my choices and I refuse, as a matter of principle, to blame anyone else for the consequences that ensue.

So, if you took someone's advice to go down a certain path and you fell into a hole and broke your leg, you would 'as a matter of principle' not blame the person who gave you the bad advice? Surely only someone with a very small understanding of the word 'principle' would make such a claim.

What if your advisor had elaborately won your trust through saying how well he knew the path?

What if you deftly managed to avoid the hole but saw others fall in? Would your lofty principles compel you to remain silent and not warn others of the danger? After all, it was their choice wasn't it? Would you refuse to judge your advisor for his part?
What kind of human principle are you claiming?
Commonly, it is considered the 'principled' thing to do to apportion blame fairly were it is due. It is unprincipled to not tell the truth.

Since I am obviously casting Maharaji as the person giving the advice in this analogy, it seems worth mentioning that his advice was not a casual, innocent recommendation. It was a very calculated, direct instruction that convinced us followers that this Master knew the path ahead in every detail - that he was trustworthy. The pitfalls were there but we would not fall into them if we adhered strictly to his guidance. I think most of the people who are now complaining about 'what ensued' are specifically piqued at what befell them when they followed his instructions; not at what happened when they did their own thing.

I personally did so to the best of my abilities and found myself quite indoctrinated, fearful and in circumstances which I now feel were undesirable. Indeed they would have been avoidable had I not been so brainwshed into that 'obedience' of which you yourself spoke.

Premies are quick to dismiss Maharaji's current critiques as those who followed their own agendas and thus reaped the unhappy consequences.
You are unlikely to attract this scorn as long as you remain harmlessly out of the picture. (although I'm afraid that I have just last night heard one premie speak contemptuously of you for having missed the plot) We who write here brazenly are sticking our necks out and getting some flak for it. (hence the pseudonyms often)
I wrote here originally because I was very unhappy at bottling up my misgivings and denying my feelings about Maharaji. I felt it was healthy to raise my criticisms in a forum like this and I have found doing so quite remedial.

You seem to be at some pains to avoid any analysis of the past which reflects badly upon M. Am I wrong? You wish to impress that you left as a matter of principle, which you hope leaves your integrity and your reputation unblemished. Well, I think you have done that, but I would consider it also principled of you to comment further upon the wider consequences of the way Maharaji conducted his mission and the effect he has had upon the lives of many people. These people who, unlike you apparently, had their ability to make sensible choices severely compromised by the powerful suggestive atmosphere they entered when they stumbled into satsang in their youths.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 22:28:48 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Other Lies on Maharaji's Website
Message:
While we are at how Maharaji presents himself today, I would like to add the following to what Jim has mentioned. It's in the form of an email I sent to Maharaji's site in January of this year. Of course, like other communication I have ever sent to him, he has not responded.

Dear Maharaji:

I notice that on your website you say the following in connection to receiving knowledge:

If you like what is given, practice it. If not, leave it. This statement, to me, is simple, yet profound and has been echoed since the time of my father.

I find the above statement extremely contradictory to other statements I have heard you make, especially since you claim that the statement has been a consistent one in relation to knowledge, since the time of your father.

For example, in August, 1978, I heard you make the following statement at a program in Philadelphia:

Guru Maharaj Ji has not only promised us, but given us more than he has promised. Always. Always. And as that battle begins, things get even more intense. And if that faith is not there, if that faith is not completely in Guru Maharaj Ji, you're going to fall in so many fragments that you wouldn't be able to count them yourself.

Also, on another occasion, I heard you say the following:

And that's the way knowledge is...it's like you got the vegetables of the whole universe with you. And if you don't meditate, can you imagine how it's going to rot?...If you don't practice this knowledge, you will get rotten inside. There is so much energy contained in this knowledge, just imagine how much harm it will be able to do you if you know it, but don't use it properly?

I don't see how you can reconcile saying that you can just try knowledge and leave it if you want to, and then make statements about 'splitting into fragments' and 'rotting inside' if you don't have faith in you and/or don't practice knowledge. I believe it is deceitful for you to make such a statement on your website, in light of these other, clearly contradictory, statements you have made. When I heard those earlier statements, I, unfortunately, believed you. Now that you are saying something entirely different and contradictory, why should anyone believe them?

I would appreciate a response to this question, however, I don't count on it, since I have sent you sincere letters in the past asking questions and you have never bothered to respond. I guess I shouldn't expect you to start having integrity at this late date in your life, but maybe you will surprise me.

Joe Whalen
San Francisco

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 19:25:20 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: How to get rid of pesky questions
Message:
Found this gem amongst today's 'Expressions' on ELK:

Unknown

Unknown becomes known when the beauty of life is discovered in the depth of it.

Clarity becomes clearer by enjoying the beauty of life.

Joy is fulfill by emerging with oneself.

Questions don't arise when busy enjoying a life of fulfilment

Pandeyan Raja
Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 19:58:19 (GMT)
From: Lacaille
Email: montreal.quebec@usa.net
To: Jim
Subject: How profound of you. How's the band coming along?
Message:
Let me try:

Ahem.

You love flowers and you cut their stems.
To me, in French you once said 'Je t'aime'.

(Got it? 'Stems' and 't'aime' sont des mots qui vont très bien ensemble. Très bien ensemble. Now, the difficult part. Ahem.)

How can I trust you until Easter.
When I know it's my dick you're after.

APPLAUSE.

Nobel prize for litterature is attributed to...

(Envelope being ripped)

Lacaille.

STANDING OVATION.

(Leaning towards the microphone as if it had been purchased at a Radio Shack store.)

'I would like to thank GOD for the immense talent SHE trusted me with.'

APPLAUSE.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 20:21:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Lacaille
Subject: Not bad .......(????!)
Message:
Do I know you? How? Are you planning to come to the next X-Flies gig here in Victoria at Thursday's Bar and Grill on Friday, April 14th (with special guests, the Stickmen)? Me too.
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:20:49 (GMT)
From: Lacaille
Email: montreal.quebec@usa.net
To: Jim
Subject: Not bad .......(????!)
Message:
Sure. You know me. Let's play a game. Guess.

So far, I gave you enough hints. You want more?

Ottawa.

Boris.

Judith Dack.

Got it?

One more: Most think I'm quite weird.

Heho.

I tried to send you email at
heller@islandnet.com
it came back. Got another address?

Allen MacKenzie forwarded me the group pic you had sent him. Right now, it is going around on the net. Annie Wood-Sosman has a Mac though. I'll figure the format she could read. Thanks. It was a great hit and a trip down memory lane. Am I on it? I am not certain but I think I am standing on the left side.

Have you got any other? I'm in the process of collecting them and putting the collection on the web. So far, I have 85 and would be glad to get more. I'll need the help of my 14 years old to figure it out. He should visit next week-end.

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:41:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Lacaille
Subject: Not bad .......(????!)
Message:
Yes, of course, it's 'you'. I'm not gay, by the way. But, beside that, my new email is:

heller@bc1.com

You can reach me best if you also cc me at my girlfriend, Laurie's:

abrala@home.com

I'd love to see those pictures! (The one you've got now is one that I sent Al. I got it from someone who I can't name online). Hey are you trying to hide your identity too?

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 21:39:39 (GMT)
From: Lacaille
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Micheal Dettmers
Message:
Who said you are gay. Someone today emailed me you are a male prostitute heroin addict and living in Vancouver. I told her you are a coke addict S&M transexual. I hope I didn't offend anyone here. There is nothing wrong with living in Vancouver.

Yes. I'd rather keep discreet about the color of my hair. Most everyone I know already think I'm quite weird. I wouldn't want to give them reasons to think they are right.

I'll mail you the pictures. If you have more, I'd like to add them to my collection. The file I'll send is a slide show. You could get each one in a separate file. Just ask me. Do you see me on the group pic you sent Allen? I am not certain.

I haven't read all about MD Clean. Tell me. Do you predict he'll join the crusade soon or should we start harrasing him until he does?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 19:42:28 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I can't help myself....
Message:
Jim: You found a real gem.....

'Unknown becomes KNOWN when the beauty of life is discovered in the depth of it.' (emphasis mine)

In the depth of what? Life? 'unknown becomes known'????? So now this guy understands the structure of DNA and everything down to the subatomic level just because he meditates? THIS is rich! I'd make a small wager that he can't even tell me what the 'tags' are...... any takers??? :-)

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 14:54:46 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: I can't help myself....
Message:
Mike:

You're just far too cynical and right-brained. All he means is that if you relax you'll remember where you left the keys at the bottom of the drawer. Happens to me all the time.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 19:56:47 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: I can't help myself....
Message:
I no longer get upset when I can't find my keys.

I've made an extra copy of all of them and keep it where I can get at it w/o needing any keys. So, this must mean I'm still experiencing knowledge. What a gift M gave me. It's still with me even though I play the role of an ex.

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 20:21:57 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: SELENE.... an epiphany!!!!!!
Message:
TO all the premies out there in lurky-land: We aren't for real... we're just M's lila come to life!

Here you've been wasting your valuable time that you could have been using under the blankey. But, instead you have allowed yourselves to be swayed into the maya by us deevine lila players.

Actually, we are just really enlightened/liberated premies that M asked to 'play the role' of ex's and YOU fell for it! HAA....... We're good, aren't we? Oooopppsss.... that's Mr. Ego talkin'.... sorry..... even WE sometimes slip into our own maya. It's kinda like chocolate pudding.... really sticky and slippery. We even fool ourselves sometimes. Anyway, I stray from the subject... LILA and YOU!

OK, you premies..... now you have your duty. Go and meditate right NOW! Do it NOW or you will shatter into a million pieces that even the satguru himself couldn't put you back together. You'll look like a rotten bunch of carrots! GO.....NOW! Now you have to ask yourselves a question...... Was this an agya or was it another lila????? The 'players' will never tell you! he he he :-) CUT.....CUT.... Where's the coffee, I need my coffee before the next set! Who's that sittin' in the director's chair?

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 20:33:56 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: my goodness
Message:
you really should have come down here. We could have spent hours of the state's time figuring this one out. Written some code for it. Programmed it into the MOO. Little premies and ex's interacting with blankets and other objects.
We both need coffee. Was it that 5th do you think?
I think it's those posts Jim finds from M's sites. Who needs drugs or alcohol when we can be so entertained?
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 21:00:19 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: I always knew there was a purpose for my life
Message:
Selene: It's to be a 'player' in M's deevine LILA company. I hope he doesn't get mad that I spoiled the plot..... OR did I???? HAA, they'll never know! Well, that's not true, they'll know when they get liberated like us premies playing the leading roles as 'ex-premies.'

The artists formerly known as premies... or is it
The premies formerly known as artists?....

There... maybe that'll get some of them out of our hair... we're still rehearsing anyway. The BIG LILA is coming soon, you know. It's the 'new phase' they've been hearing about. he he he :-)

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 17:57:24 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Ahhhhhh soooooo, it's that pesky key magnet guy
Message:
Thanks, Scott: I didn't see the connection..... he he he :-)

Hey, I don't know if you read my post to Gregg concerning the poetic license everyone is taking with the newest entry from ELK. BUT, I'm serious!!!!!!!! We need to meditate on Larkin's mantra so that he will complete the thread...... read my post.... it has the secret mantra in it. BEWARE the warning, though..... my kahonies still ache from the time I revealed it to an unworthy person..... :-)

Ommmmmm mani padmi hummmmmmm LAAAAAAAAKIN YoooooouRang

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 22:11:26 (GMT)
From: Dabe
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Ahhhhhh soooooo, it's that pesky key magnet guy
Message:
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 22:19:21 (GMT)
From: Dave
Email: None
To: Dabe
Subject: Ahhhhhh soooooo, it's that pesky key magnet guy
Message:
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 22:12:52 (GMT)
From: whoops
Email: None
To: Dabe
Subject: Ahhhhhh soooooo, it's that pesky key magnet guy
Message:
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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 03:26:29 (GMT)
From: The real Dave
Email: None
To: whoops
Subject: Please don't post as me, Rob (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 19:13:28 (GMT)
From: Q
Email: None
To: Everyone/Jim
Subject: 'devotional mind games' speaks volumes (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 19:37:58 (GMT)
From: Lacaille
Email: montreal.quebec@usa.net
To: Jim
Subject: This is an encrypted message.
Message:
What does it mean exactly?
Who's hiding behind this Q? Micheal Dettmers, is it you?

Hi Jim. You got my Email? You know who this is then? Lacaille is a character from a soap airing on French CBC which happen in a high school. He teaches litterature and questions every convention. I like the character. I think you can catch it in Vancouver as well on French CBC.

So long pal. Thanks for the group pic. Am I on it standing left? I gained a little weight over the years I realize and started to dy my hair last month.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:38:14 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: questions for michael dettmers
Message:
Dear Michael-
YOu do not know me, but I feel like I know you, at least a little bit.You were one of the top people in DLM, I was a simple ashram/community premie, who saw you speak in different places. I thought you were a sincere, intelligent man who was into knowledge and m and were doing your best within the organization. I heard a famous story that one time in 1976 there was a meeting with m, and all of the honchos told him that he should become the 'world humanitarian Leader'. Supposedly you were the only one who disagreed and supported m, I guess as perfect master, or something like that.Whatever...maybe you could elaborate on that a bit more.So, I have a certain respect for you,based on that story and what I saw of you from time to time.I want you to know that I do believe you, when you say that you sincerely enjoyed and benefited from Knowledge, and wanted to help with the mission to spread knowledge to the world, just as you had helped with the anti-war movement. I too, like mike donner, rennie davis and many others made similar transitions as well, so I feel like we are all kindred spirits in some way...
However, I do have many questions for you, as do many other thousands of people in this country, which you are in a unique position to answer, and in doing so, helping to heal not only those lives, but maharaji's and his families as well.Some of those questions have been asked, most notably by JW and Jim. YOur answers make some sense, and I tremendously respect you for answering these important questions. However, there is an entire realm of emotion, common sense and conscience that I feel you have not addressed.I would like to ask you a few questons now, and perhaps a few more later..
1-When you left in the mid 80's, did you just leave the organization, or did you stop practicing knowledge, and give up the devotional relationship to m alltogether? Was this a difficult transition for you? I ask this, because it has very difficult for myself and everyone else I know.
2-did you really know that m was a 'mere mortal' in the 70's, but kept that to yourself, while everyone worshipped him as god, which he fully encouraged?What was that like?Did you feel any obligation to bring that up to the 1000's of premies who believed otherwise, as per m's satsange about his divinity?
3-While we grew up in our 20's fully believing m to be the most powerful incarnation of god to ever walk the planet(peace bomb?)
he now has re-invented himself as just a 'master' or 'teacher' with a simple meditation and message. Doesn't he owe all of the tens of thousands of former devotees any explanation of all this? Can we ever believe him again, when he does these things with no apology or explanation?Is this responsible?Does he take any responsibility for this?If you talk about this now, you are called 'negative', 'in the past', or 'not in the heart', all of which are smokescreens to avoid the real questions.Don't you think new people can see through all of this, esp. when they see 'the other side of the story' on this site?What will premies think abut him, when they finally know all of this stuff, while they innocently go out into their communities and try and 'propagate' knowledge?These are real people, with real careers, families, reputations, bills etc. They go out on his behalf, try and recruit new people, and probably don't know most of this stuff. The new people will probably see this stuff before they do, as they may check out m on the internet. Premies have been told by m not to go on the ex-premie site, so they may not.But what happens when the new recruit checks out this site and goes back to the unsuspecting premie, wanting real answers? The premie is set up by m, and then takes the hit when the new person sees the other side of the story.That premie may lose his or her job, have their reputation ruined,be denied a promotion, blackballed etc..Is this right?M knows all this, but won't talk about it, or have any reasonable discussion with anyone about it.This is the guy who brings peace, tranquility, harmony and light to the world? His devotees are dearer to him than his own breath, or life itself?And he sets them up like this?Shouldn't he give some explanation?Don't you feel some sort of moral or ethical obligation to bring about some understanding here? The last money pitch on the phone feed encouraged people to ask the company they work for to match their donation to elan vital.Can you imagine the corporate response to that, if and when they find out about the history of this group?Do you think that premie would be well received after that in their work place?How about the new premie who knows nothing about all this, goes to his boss, tells him to donate to EV and then gets fired or demoted because this group screams 'cult' when you finally see it in it's entirety, which is far different that the way it is promoted?
Michael, forgive me if I go on and on, but these are real issues that need real answers. I have more questons to follow later, but would appreciate some sort of reply. I want you to know that these are sincere questions from the heart, and that I respect you very, very much, both for your past involvement with the organization, and your present willingness to dialogue with people here.
Sincerely....LA, and many others as well....
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 10:24:04 (GMT)
From: Dettmers
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: questions for michael dettmers
Message:
Dear LA,

I have read your request and I will do my best to answer some, not all, of your questions. I say some because, as I have already stated, I have not spoken with Maharaji nor attended any of his events or programs for years. Thus, I am not qualified to comment or express an opinion on what is going on now.

You ask about the meeting in 1976. First let me give you some of the background that led to this meeting. When Maharaji first came to the West at the age of 12, his mission was not to create DLM’s all over the world. DLM had been created in India by his father’s followers to facilitate the organization of programs. Because he was still a minor, his mother was the patron of DLM in India and she took it upon herself to establish DLM’s in the USA, UK, Canada and elsewhere. For the most part, they were structured as not-for-profit, or charitable organizations, except in the USA where the powers that be in 1972 were advised that the most beneficial tax structure was to set it up as a church. Four years later, the church was notified that it was being audited by the IRS. Now, for whatever reason, the officers and directors of DLM-USA had not anticipated this possibility. Although DLM-Canada was not a church, as the former national coordinator, I had a pretty good knowledge of the covenants and restrictions that apply to these types of organizations.

When Maharaji asked me to come to Denver in 1975, one of my first tasks was to handle this audit. As I dug into the rules and regulations governing a church with the help of professional advisors, I discovered that Maharaji, as head of this church was considered to be its chief minister and expected to live and function within the confines of that particular status. To me it was absurd that Maharaji, who was now a US permanent resident, should find himself relegated to the status of a minister of a Denver-based US church. Does anyone believe that Maharaji would consciously choose to put himself in this position. Of course not. This was another example of some of the baggage he inherited. Some of the honchos to whom you refer, however, didn’t see it as such a big deal. When Maharaji asked me what I thought, I told him that I thought it was absurd that he should find himself in this position and that the time had come to re-think his whole organizational structure. With that, he asked my to take on a new role as his personal manager where I would oversee a complete restructuring of his organization. This meeting was not about some people thinking he should be a “world humanitarian leader” and me disagreeing and supporting him as perfect master. Besides, the whole idea about Maharaji being a world humanitarian leader, which I thought was a stupid idea, had already been tried and abandoned shortly after the unveiling of DUO a year or two before.

Now, besides clearing up whatever misconceptions you may have had about that meeting, what can we learn from this episode? I found myself grappling with the question about how to set up an appropriate structure that would facilitate the spreading of knowledge and yet be consistent and congruent with an identity that properly reflected Maharaji’s vision and mission. I suggest that when I was grappling with these issues, I was not engaging with an abstract or otherworldly concept of god or lord or perfect master, but with a real human being. And it was important to me that I develop an intelligible and functional interpretation of who Maharaji was and how best to support his work. It was in this context that I gradually come to some of the recommendations I referred to in my earlier memo.

I will now attempt to answer some of your other questions by speaking personally about my own experience. Once again, I don’t claim to be right, but what I say is true for me. As a certain point in my life in 1971, I was attracted to Maharaji, or I attracted Maharaji to me (same difference). When I use the word “attracted” I am referring to the principle of “synchronicity.” The Swiss psychologist Carl Jung was the first modern thinker to define this phenomenon -- the perception of meaningful coincidence. Jung maintained the synchronicity was an acausal principle of the universe, a law that operated to move human beings toward greater growth in consciousness.

Why was I attracted to Maharaji and who do I think Maharaji is? To me, Maharaji is a teacher. A teacher of what? For me, I was searching for peace, inner harmony, love, and consciousness, and the knowledge Maharaji spoke about sounded like the answer. And guess what? For me, it was. In time, I discovered how masterful he is in the domain he calls knowledge. By masterful I mean that he embodies the experience. And I have countless personal experiences in which I have witnessed that mastery in action. However, whether you consider him a god or a human being, it is still necessary to have some confidence that he is capable of teaching you about knowledge (that logic applies in any student-teacher relationship). And it is my experience that it is necessary to meditate regularly.

Is Maharaji a fraud? To me, he is not. He promised that he would teach me how to experience knowledge and he did, to my great satisfaction. I will not attempt to define what I mean by “great satisfaction” since whatever I might say would only be my interpretation or explanation of the experience, not the experience itself (the phenomenon) which is for each person to discover for him or herself.

Did I stop practicing knowledge when I left? No, I still meditate almost every day and I continue to enjoy the experience and derive great benefit from doing so. In addition to meditation, I am committed to keeping alive my desire to learn and deepen my appreciation for the beauty and joy of life. Like any human, I encounter some difficulties and disappointments, but for the most part I am grateful that I am continuing to learn and to attract wonderful people and interesting projects that are aligned with what I care about into my life.

Did I give up the devotional relationship with Maharaji altogether and was this a difficult transition? I have already expressed my views about devotion so I won’t repeat myself here. But until the time I left, I was very committed and dedicated to helping Maharaji fulfill his mission. When I was involved with Maharaji, I came to know him as a friend for whom I had great love. And love can be expressed in many ways. I wouldn’t characterize mine as devotional but it was love none the less. And it is out of respect for that love and appreciation for knowledge that I refuse to criticize Maharaji.

While I was with him, I never experienced the kind of transition you speak about. When I left, I was satisfied that I had done the best job I could do. Of course there was a transition, but I would not characterize it as difficult. As I pointed out, I continued to meditate, I became absorbed in building Dettmers Industries with my brother and others, and I studied with several people who are masterful in the area of organizational transformation that now forms the basis for my consulting practice. For the record, I have never studied EST nor was I ever an EST trainer as someone suggested.

I hope you find this helpful. Out of respect for you and other’s I have done my best to respond to some of your questions. I think you will agree, however, given my stand on Maharaji, that I am not the person to whom you should address any of your other questions.

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 17:42:48 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Dettmers
Subject: questions for michael dettmers
Message:
I won't go into some of the issues about whether Maharaji ran a cult or not. I think my views on that are pretty well known. But I have a couple of questions about your rendition of historical events surrounding Divine Light Mission.

Regarding the structure of Divine Light Mission, I recall that prior to about 1975, Divine Light Mission in the USA was indeed legally a church. We in the ashram were legally monks, even to the point where at our jobs we had no withholding of federal income taxes, using the church status for the exception. My understanding was that the IRS, perhaps as a result of the audit, made the decision that DLM did not meet the qualifications of a church and removed the status. From a personal level, that change required that I pay income taxes for 1975 which had not been withheld. I had discussions with Virgil Cuillio (sp?) an attorney for DLM about this at the time, and that's what he explained.

Regarding 'humanitarian leader.' Perhaps you are talking about something else, but it wasn't until the first part of 1976 that we, as premies, were told by the hierarchy at DLM (I dont' know whether that included you or not) that Guru Maharaj Ji was supposed to now be considered a 'humanitarian leader.' It was NOT serveral years before that, although there may have been discussion of which never made it to the rank and file premies.

I also recall the US Tour Maharaji did in 1976 in which the Krishna crown was conspicuously absent and the darshan line was more of a receiving line with no feet-kissing or pranaming. As you probably recall, by the end of 1976, this change was over, and Maharaji went back to Krishna crowns, feet-kissing darshan and openly criticized people who had moved out of the ashram in 1976. You may recall that at that point there began, what I call, Maharaji's 'super-devotional' period. Given your views on 'devotion', the period from 1977 to 1982, when that's about all Maharaji talked about, must have been very hard for you. Frankly, I think you may be engaging in historical revisionism or selective memory here. I can't imagine that you stayed involved working for Maharaji when his whole presentation and actions changed so dramatically in a direction that was blatantly 'cult-like.' Also, Michael, by this point Maharaji was into his 20s and was no longer 12. This wasn't 'baggage.' He knew exactly what he was doing, in my opinion.

I don't think there is any point discussing your subjective experience of mediation and Maharaji as a person, and I have no reason to believe those descriptions aren't completely accurate.

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 16:51:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Dettmers
Subject: Please, Michael, a bit of a 'thought experiment'
Message:
Michael,

Thanks for finally joining in. It takes a certain chutzpah for you to post here, especially feeling as you apparently do. Like I've tried to explain here I've honestly enjoyed talking with you to the few times we have already. Unlike a lot of premies, you seem to actually want clear communication although, as you know, we might differ with respect to what that entails. There was one point in our first chat where you said something, I countered back that that didn't make sense, you stopped for a moment and then cleanly, maturely and with no fuss or muss conceded the point. Just by doing that that one time you exceeded the average level of honesty I've come to expect of premies. I won't belabour the point but simply invite you to read the dialogues in the archives if you think I'm exaggerating. There is an average and it's unfortunately very, very low. So a little honesty is always a welcome break.

But now, Michael, I really want to challenge you. Here's my question: do you think that an objective, intelligent person who was never a follower of Maharaji but was fully-apprised of his history (via documentation, trustworthy first-hand reports, etc.) would find your stance principled and justified?

See, for my money, that would be simply impossible. I have absolutely no doubt that your comments so far would leave many a hypothetically objective jaw agape, to say the least. As soon as anyone read any of the satsangs from the seventies or early eighties, whether they be Maharaji's, the Holy Family's or anyones, they would see the classic indisputable hallmarks of a cult. Further, they would see all of your comments as falling very short of the mark in terms of addressing the obvious issues.

You talk carefully. You know that about yourself, I'm sure. Talking carefully can be a strength or a weakness. If you're talking carefully to most accurately appreciate or explain a complex phenomenon, that's just great. As a lawyer, I often have to talk carefully, just to make a point and, like I say, sometimes to even understand what I 'think I mean'. But there are other times where talking carefully frankly insults the subejct matter. I think that Maharaji, in some respects, is one of those subjects.

Michael, any ojbective, informed person is going to look through DLM and EV's past and immediately question the ultimate source, the authoirty that drove it from inception. You seem to, again, very 'carefully' avoid that step. Where's your natural curiosity, man? Don't you want to know where this purported unicorn got his horn? Or have you mortgaged your curiosity to service some supposed higher debt? How much of Maharaji's admonishment to 'always have faith in God' and to 'leave no room for doubt in your mind' are you still carrying around with you? Honestly, I think you don't know the answer to that yourself. But, you have to admit, it's a damned good question.

No, an objective, informed person would call this thing a cult with nary a second's hesitation. 'The guy called himself God? Cult. He proclaimed himself as the saviour of mankind, foretold apocalyptic disaster if the world didn't all come into his fold? Cult. Told people that he and he alone had the secret of life which he had taken a human body to dispense? Cult. Urged people to aver their minds as poison? Cult. Ammassed a literal fortune all under the guise of collecting support for his 'divine mission'? Cult'

Michael, the only real problem in this thought experiment is imagining an informed outsider who would take the question seriously, so obvious is the answer.

So, then, what would Mr. Informed Outsider make of you?

I'm sorry, Michael, but I think that answer's also obvious. He would call you a slick but transparent cult apologist, again without hesitation. He would have no problem pointing out the delicate, delicate dance you're doing, tip-toeing around the hearty, messy issues we all care about, trying so very gingerly to find some plausible good light to cast this Maharaji character in.

Now, I'm not saying that that would be my opinion. I'm saying that that would be any informed outsider's. Do you disagree?

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 16:02:46 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Dettmers
Subject: questions for michael dettmers
Message:
When I was involved with Maharaji, I came to know him as a friend for whom I had great love. And love can be expressed in many ways. I wouldn’t characterize mine as devotional but it was love none the less. And it is out of respect for that love and appreciation for knowledge that I refuse to criticize Maharaji.

In the many debates with premies here, a very reliable measure of their cult membership is their inability to criticise Maharaji. It seems to me that you, Mr. Dettmers, are still very much in the cult mindset. Even the use of the word 'appreciation' is a relatively recent event is cultspeak evolution, so I question your distance from the cult.

No, it appears that in any open, rational, examination of the Maharaji phenomenon, and its effect of his followers, you are of little use. It is a pity.

John Brauns

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 13:22:09 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Dettmers
Subject: One question for Michael
Message:
Michael,

I know there are a lot of people who have a lot of questions. If you could just answer one that I have it would be this; You told Jim, 'uncategorically', on the phone that you, at one time, believed M was the Lord Of The Universe who was here to spread the Knowledge Of God. Why did you change your views on that?

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 14:41:51 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: A qualification regarding 'phenomena'
Message:
Michael,

Just so you know, I understand your perspective between phenomena and interpretation. What I'm curious about is what was the spark that ignited your change in interpretation? Was there anything in particular?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 19:29:36 (GMT)
From: Lacaille
Email: montreal.quebec@usa.net
To: la-ex
Subject: questions for michael dettmers
Message:
My guess is Micheal is dishonest. He must have seen the whole thing as a business in which suckers were taken for a ride. Talk about ethics. My guess is he ain't got any.

From people who mingled with him and his brother in Florida, there are loose-ends that don't add-up. If he was honest and sincere, He couldn't have left the whole thing behind all of a sudden, K, M and job as CEO. Furthermore, his wealth don't compare with his associates and brother/associate. Thus, it couldn't come neither from family, nor from business. My guess is as good as yours. Someone should interview his ex-wife and brother on the matter.

Don't bother to ask him anything. He'll deny any wrong doings just as during the Watergate era. If he admits M is a fraud, he'd admit his own dishonesty.

Just as I've made-up my mind on O.J., I don't think much of Micheal. He got a few choices: a)ignore every question until everyone forgets about it (which is very unlikely. Since he's attainable, anger directed against M lands on his doorstep. Now that he got involved in the conversation, it would be impossible to reverse the trend.) or b) keep lying and pretend everything was and is dandy hoping this will quiet the uproar directed against M and his fraud. Also unlikely c) be honest; write a crunchy tell-all book; confess and sink M for what he is; become a professionnal ex-premie; give lectures on the culture of the 70's and interviews on Politically incorrect and 60 minutes on cults. If - and I think he does - he has two cents worth of judgement, he'll choose C). His present attitude is dictated by guilt and perhaps fear of reprisals by M. Guilt is easily overcome, but fear of reprisals by M would remain a major inhibitor.

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 01:37:28 (GMT)
From: book buyer
Email: None
To: Lacaille
Subject: sign me up for Dettmers Tells All Book
Message:
Dettmers Tells All
Former Cult Lieutenant Washes Hands of the Matter

this would be a best seller.

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 15:38:26 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Dettmers
Subject: One suggestion to Dettmers
Message:
To Michael Dettmers,

I have read your post above and now understand that you refuse to criticize Maharaji, in honor of the love and respect you have had with him on a personal level. You do not say that you are unaware of any possible criticisms, only that you will not speak them yourself.

We ex-premies who are active on this website can only honor your decision and I will in no way attempt to sway you or try to get you to publicly denounce Rawat with insults or negative story-telling.

But I do have one suggestion/request for you, and I suggest it because you present yourself as someone who has been sincerely trying to help people your whole life. Please, I urge you, read the expressions on the Enjoyinglife website, a premie site dedicated to Maharaji. Read in particular the expressions from March 2000 including Noel Phillips of Malibu, Alan Roettinger of Agoura, Jonathin Minton of London and Brenda Russell, an aspirant in Austin TX.

You will soon see that Rawat is still currently being presented as a sort of savior figure to whom heartful devotion should go in order to achieve the true fulfillment possible in this life. The Knowledge is still very much secondary to the Master. Bilkis and other 'instructors' will not recommend any person to receive Knowledge unless and until they renounce all other spiritual affiliations or feelings.

Michael, you must understand the frustration that we exes feel when we see what is happening today with the new recruits to Rawat's cult. You must also understand our disappointment that you have no inclination to help.

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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 17:43:47 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Very fine post there,Way. Hope Dettmers answers nt
Message:
Very fine post there,Way. Hope Dettmers answers nt
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:56:12 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: happyheretic@hotmail.com
To: To Dettmers
Subject: some comments
Message:
Michael,
if you read this:
You don't know me, I know you. I appreciate very much that you've stepped forward, but I must agree with those above, it is clear from your post that you are still trapped in the cult mindset.

If you refuse to criticize M, then you actually support the fact that he continues to rip off innocent people.

The simple fact that you've left M reveals, on the other hand, that in your heart, you know he is a fraud.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 17:45:33 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: who is bill w?
Message:
Is Bill W., who seems to speak with an air of authority about certain matters, supposed to be Bill Wishard?
I met Bill Wishard once, he seemed like a very nice man who was a little straighter than the rest of us. He didn't seem to be an ex-hippie,but more of an all-american corporate type guy who was very sincere in helping m and the organization.

I'm just wondering-is this Bill Wishard, and

would you care to share anything else that might help us all understand more about m and the organization that so many of us pledged our entire lives to?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:19:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Obviously a pseudonym
Message:
Don't you remember the TV movie a few years back 'I am Bill W.? I think James Woods was in it. Anyway, it was about 'Bill W.' the founder of AA.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:34:37 (GMT)
From: Bill W.
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Obviously a pseudonym
Message:
Jim is correct; it is a pseudonym based on Bill W., the founder of AA. Definitely not Bill Wishard, who is indeed a nice guy. Sorry for the confusion.
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:25:09 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Bill W.
Subject: Obviously a pseudonym
Message:
Why are you calling yourself that? Is there some kind of affinity you share with Bill W that would make you choose him as a pseudonym? Don't you know that Bill is believed to be a cult leader by many, himself? I know if I had my way, I'd tear those Twelve Steps right off the wall, but that would be like saying fuck the Ten Commandments, or take the Sutra of the Forty-Two Chapters and shove them. Very taboo.
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 19:02:05 (GMT)
From: Bill W.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Obviously a pseudonym
Message:
Actually, I've never been to an AA meeting, but I agree with you that it's a cult. I have some friends who were in AA, and they would most heartily agree with you about its cultishness. I chose the name because it had to do with drinking, not because I'm trying to garner followers. Jeezus, the last thing I'd want is a bunch of people looking to me for 'the way.' Where I live, AA meetings are considered a means to 'network.' Watch 'Short Cuts' if you want to see what it's like.

And definitely watch out for that '13th step' that Selene mentions; it's the most damaging one of all, if not for the steppor, but the steppee (or is it shtuppee?).

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:44:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Jesus, Jer
Message:
Isn't it obvious? The guy's posting about the alcoholic intervention, for god's sake! Now do you get it?

Sheesh!

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:58:00 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh
Message:
Jim,

It's been a while since that post. Okay, a short while, but a while is a while, and I lost track and didn't make the connection. It's an interesting thing, this brain science study. You get to learn all about neurons and their connections even as you get to watch them stop working in your own head. Amazing.

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 20:02:00 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Ok, then..... who's watchin'?
Message:
Jerry: '......You get to learn all about neurons and their connections even as you get to watch them stop working in your own head....'

Ok, then who's mindin' the store? Who be watchin'? 'I AM' going to get an answer to that damned question one of these days! he he he :-)

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 19:07:04 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Oh
Message:
I still liked what you wrote. I had to go into treatment this fall for an out of whack biochemical bipolar condition and part of my 'dual diagnosis' prgram consisted of having to sit through some 12 step meetings and lectures. It was hard to take being a fairly new ex-premie and being so freshing aware of all the cult trappings and conditionings.
I agree with Jim regarding the seriousness of an alcoholic intervention though. But the program itself it tough to take.
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 19:49:26 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Oh
Message:
Selene,

I think the 'fellowship' of AA is great, the fellowship, but that's about it. In my own area, a bunch of agnostics and atheists started their own group called 'We Agnostics'. They basically just get together for group support, but have no official program of recovery. I agree with you. AA meetings can be tough to take.

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 18:38:07 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: thanks jerry
Message:
That was great. Much appreciated. I had the unique experience of discovering there is a secret undisclosed 13th step {snicker}

doing fine thanks w/o ya bill

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 21:29:53 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: AA
Message:
I know a bit about the 12 step programs, I've known some people who have generally benefited from them. But a lot of people don't. It seems like the steps get too sloganized and substitute for in-depth discussions and understanding. The programs also seem to not emphasize a chemical/biological approach enough. I just had a talk with an AA person who said that it is getting less moralistic. Do you know there's a AA deprogramming web site?
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 22:58:08 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: G
Subject: yeah but....
Message:
ha..like they all say, 'I don't have a problem with alcohol' :) :)
I'm on meds for dysphoric mania or whatever the trendy label is this month. Boy that sounds scary doesn't it?

Fortunately I didn't stick around enough to need deprogramming but it does say something that there is a need for a site and/or other means to get clear of it.
Mostly I found it unbearably depressing. The 13th step isn't so bad though.

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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 02:00:17 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: yeah but....
Message:
Dysphoric mania, I believe I knew a premie, no longer following M, who was diagnosed with that. Could it be you? Did you have a dog you loved very much?

Actually the AA meetings (I'm not an alcoholic btw, really, I'm not, no, I'm not in denial, I hardly drink at all, I swear it) I went to were more fun than the co-dependant Al-anon etc. ones. I went to a few AA meetings because I knew someone with a drinking problems and had friends in AA. They do help some, but people do get kind of stuck. My friend told me that some people think they can find all the answers to life in the 'Big Book', so Bill W. is sort of like their guru. My assessment is the AA meetings/structure provide a support group and some good advice, but there's quite a bit of confusion also. NA (Narcotics A.), I was told, is less dogmatic. I mentioned my perspective that I think some people sometimes abuse the concepts in AA, like using the 'disease' and 'I'm powerless' concepts as an excuse, like 'I couldn't help it.' Slogans shouldn't be left as slogans.
Some people get fanatical about attending the meetings and just hanging out with AA people. To some degree, that's understandable, given that their life is at stake. But it seems like these fanatics get addicted to the program.

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Date: Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 03:08:33 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: G
Subject: no i'm more of a cat person
Message:
But dysphoric mania is making the rounds I think they have found a convenient label for the types that don't get depressed and go off the deep end when given ssri's.
ah life... if only that stupid shit had had the answer. funny thing I know more premies on Prosac and Zoloft than ex's..
so how is that???
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:27:04 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: HA! I should have thought of that (nt)
Message:
hic
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:30:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Well where were you coming from? (nt)
Message:
hh
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:33:56 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I plead the 5th
Message:
gotta see the doctor today.Being a good girl
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 20:16:02 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: Did you drink the 5th or just plead with it?
Message:
Selene: personally, I vote for drinking it..... pleading doesn't seem to do any good at all!
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 20:18:01 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: ok
Message:
Let's find one of those canyons and forget this place.
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 00:15:16 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: ok
Message:
Let's find one of those forgetfulnesses and can this place. :-)
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:29:04 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I can't believe you didn't!
Message:
It must be that Dr. Bob fixation...
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:18:18 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: I think it's a pseudonym...
Message:
...and here is why:

For anyone who doesn't know, Bill W. (or Bill Wilson) was the founder of AA (along with his wife Lois, and Dr. Bob). Also, the person that posted used the phrase 'I am Bill W.' - if you go to an AA meeting, the speaker will stand up and say 'My name is Bill W. and I am an alcoholic.'

BTW, interventions like the one 'Bill W.' described are a technique that is commonly used in AA, and in other alcohol treatment programs. They usually involve the person's family and friends, who all meet together with the person and confront him about his drinking problem.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:17:02 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: who knows?
Message:
He could have been anyone.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:20:50 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene and Jim
Subject: hey, great minds think alike! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:22:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Watch it, bitch!
Message:
Hi Katie,

How're you doing? I was so relieved to see that I didn't misspell 'pseudonym'. How about you?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:28:11 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Watch your language, boy!
Message:
Hi Jim...
BTW, I can't find our divorce papers and I'm doing my taxes. How much did you make last year anyway?

Seriously, everything is OK, but we are both working too many hours in our 'real world' jobs. Know anyone who wants to be a webmaster?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:30:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Oh you're asking for it now!
Message:
How about Chris Dickey?

And Katie, your divorce papers were something special betwen you adn your lawyer. I've got my own set.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 14:43:40 (GMT)
From: thin mann
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: give me your comment on this
Message:
first i think that it is a fact that you can have the experience of k whitout having devotion for maharajji this is very mindblowing to use a old premieword and it is such a relief it took me 25 years to understand i never dared to get close to that understanding because meditation is very importent to me it is so nice to stop begging maharajji never had the rigth to take the credit for knovledge byt now i cannot help but thinking mayby this was also what jesus,krisna muhamed and all the others so called masters did , and if it is so perhaps humanity are going to change some attitudes towards all religions what do you think
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 17:31:27 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: thin mann
Subject: give me your comment on this
Message:
Thin:

i cannot help but thinking mayby this was also what jesus,krisna muhamed and all the others so called masters did , and if it is so perhaps humanity are going to change some attitudes towards all religions what do you think

I am undecided about what the experience of k is all about. I suppose it could be satanic as easily as divine. What does it actually do, and what substantive insights does it provide? If any they are so subtle as to be imperceptible. For instance, k does not even inform ethics very well. It *is* sort of an odd phenomenon, but the jury is out as to whether the 'masters' were genuine benefactors or monstrosities. I think our ideas about religions are changing, as society itself is undergoing a radical transformation. It's possible that I need whatever it was that I surrendered to a 'master' in order to utilize k for whatever purpose it was designed or evolved to serve.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 03:04:06 (GMT)
From: blood boils
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: 'It's possible that I need whatever it was that I'
Message:
'It's possible that I need whatever it was that I surrendered to a 'master' in order to utilize k for whatever purpose it was designed or evolved to serve.

--Scott'

I love it, rolling on the floor laughing out loud over and over again...absolutely hilarious and true..

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 15:11:34 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: thin mann
Subject: Have you heard of punctuation...
Message:
...and starting sentences with a capital letter?

Seriously, it would make your post a lot easier to read, and you would be more likely to receive thoughtful responses.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 15:22:40 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: oh lets not be picky...
Message:
i think there are some good and relevent points in the thin mann's post - it is the very issue of ownership of experience which gives m the hold over premies - gratitude and devotion can be crippling to the tenderised (by both the aspirant process and practicing Knowledge) psyche - and take a person out of their natural orbit and trap them circling another person who is then in a totally powerful position (vacated by parents, teachers etc) to milk the needy soul for whatever they depend upon - be it money or even more spookily, vanity.

This is a real danger.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 17:35:52 (GMT)
From: jerry
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: oh lets not be picky...
Message:
i think there are some good and relevent points in the thin mann's post

me too but i think he's wrong about the religions of the world changing these are already well established personality cults that might and probably will die out as time passes but for as long as they are in effect jesus krishna buddha will always be god/man too bad.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 18:24:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: jerry
Subject: oh lets not be picky...
Message:
i know what you mean sometimes i think that its not at all clear what to think about some of those guys you know like sometimes it seems that even if they wre divine they still should have used punctuation just like all the rest of us i mean for example no one ever heard of any spelling mistakes in the ten commandments did they
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Date: Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 05:52:26 (GMT)
From: Loafji
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: oh, erm, lets not be, picky, know what I mean....
Message:
i remeber satsang, erm, when, for me , personally, the , erm... yea ! It's like... yes !...the whole, sort of..... know what I mean.

I mean, for me, its just like.... you know. It's just just really like ... yea.

No wonder eh !

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 12:37:08 (GMT)
From: A.P
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Questions
Message:
I am reletively new to the forum and not a premie or even an ex, but I am very close to a circle of premies including my significant other. I noticed from doing my research on this web site among other places that you all have a lot of anger towards Maharaji, which I find understandable. I sure would be pissed if someone took years away from me. I have some questions for all of you exes out there. How is it that you were drawn into this in the first place. Wasnt there a family member, or friend that tried to warn you? Why was the urge to pack up and leave so strong? I have noticed many ex premies come from small towns, and have above average intelligence. Since I became involved with a premie I have tried to figure out how such an intelligent person could not see right through M? Where did the power he had/has come from? I remember hearing about DLM among other cult groups in elementary school. I would not put myself high on the intelligence scale but 1 video and I knew he was a scammer.
I have tried to present M to my significant other in another light. With stacks of paper all printed with information I found (mostly from these ex sites), Coupled with some quotes I found from M himself and some facts from you guys that made those quotes sound pretty ridiculous. I tried to shed some new light. After a while I was in a room with 2 premies and found out that this one person actually has an automatic withdrawal on a credit card each month to M. WHY????? What is the best way to talk to a premie about how M really is? Any suggestions?
I read all the news stories about Uganda. Could this happen? Could Maharaji actually freak out oneday and spike the punch? and take off to some private island he purchased with hard earned premie dollars?
My mother taught me to meditate when I was younger and I still do to this day. But I certainly don't owe her any service or kiss her feet for that matter. And I don't think she is some kind of master. I meditate to relieve stress, and it works.
I would appreciate some advise.
Thanks A.P.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 17:50:46 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: A.P
Subject: Questions
Message:
Well, I really feel for you. It's a very hard nut to crack. I know when I was a premie, it didn't matter what anybody said that questioned Maharaji or the cult, I had strong defenses for all of it. But keep talking to your significant other. Keep saying how what he or she is doing affects you, and how you see contradictions in all of it. Some of that sinks in, and in retrospect, I wish my friends and family had done more of that, instead of being tolerant liberals who tried to 'respect my beliefs', while they watched me trash my life.

Regarding the composition of the premie population, it's my understanding that the vast majority of people in the west who are still into Maharaji are aging holdovers from the 70s. When I was involved, they tended to be mostly white, middle to upper middle class kids, late teens and early 20s, with a large percentage being from Jewish and Catholic backgrounds. They had the luxury of looking for something to follow because they weren't poor, they had some spiritual/religious tradition, and they were really young and impressionable. Those people still involved from this group basically still believe Maharaji is god, although it isn't kosher these days to say so.

I'll give you an example. A few years ago, I had lunch with a guy I lived in the ashram with in the early 80s. He was an avid devotee premie then, and still appeared to be. He told me that Maharaji had fired him, in front of a bunch of other people, from being an 'instructor' although his wife was still allowed to be one and it was straining their marriage. He was convinced that it was and right-hand honcho of Maharaji's, David Smith, whom he referred to as a 'Nazi,' who was behind it all. He was very hurt, freaked out, etc. When I asked him why he stayed involved taking shit from uptight reactionaries like David Smith, he said the following, which really floored me. He said: 'Because I know and truly believe that Maharaji knows what is best for me.'

He didn't say that he was still into it because Maharaji was god, but that's what it boils down to. He STILL, in the 90s, felt Maharaji was directing his life, and doing so better than he could. He STILL felt he had to 'surrender' to Maharaji. He wasn't in the ashram anymore, but the beliefs were there, intact. When he said this, it brought back all the sick feelings I remember when I constantly subordinated my own better judgment for what Maharaji said to do.

BUT.....I think even the die-hard premies who post here often think some of the following:

'Why does Maharaji need to have so much money and wealth? It would be so much easier to follow him and defend him, if he didn't. And why aren't people coming in droves to follow Maharaji, if what he is offering is the ultimate truth? When will the masses Maharaji promised, arrive? And why, if he isn't into the money, are there big trinket bizarres at his 'events.' And why DOES he have to have the latest plane, which is both astronomically expensive and environmentally irresponsible? ETc., Of course this is ended with the thought: 'I know that is doesn't matter about these things, because only the experience matters, and I know that I'm too unconscious to see Maharaji's plan, so it's better that I just don't think about it.'

They don't' want to think about it, but if you bring it up, they might have to and eventually, maybe they will.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 16:03:33 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: A.P
Subject: Questions
Message:
A.P.:

I don't know about anyone else, but I was in it for the babes.

Seriously though it's like Bill Gates taking advantage of the economic principle of 'lock in' in order to secure a monopolistic advantage. He saw a 'flaw' in the representation of markets and exploited it. In the case of Gurus and other spiritual charlatans they perceive a flaw in human nature and exploit it. The flaw is that we 'want' to believe, and in a certain sense are both dissatisfied with and distrustful of skepticism. Magicians exploit the same flaw, but have a system of ethics that compels them to bring us back to reality before exiting. Not so for the spiritual charlatans. They have no coherent ethic at all. Some are better at the exploitation than others. Sun Myung Moon is better at it than Maharaji.

Read the first half of the 'Guru Papers.' The second half has major flaws since it's really a thinly disguised and somewhat sophomoric political statement, but the authors lay out the mechanics of the scam pretty well.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 15:16:49 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: Loafji@yahoo.com
To: A.P
Subject: Questions
Message:
Dear AP.

I agree with Way (below) - but more importantly - there is some 'programming' going on - which is not helped by the effects of Knowledge - by this I mean that this form of meditation - when practiced in a climate of 'gratitude' and 'devotion' (allbeit very modernised) - is close to self hypnosis. The smallest, softest suggestions are seemingly reinforced by the tender/feelgood/self-life orientated seduction of a parental philosophy which gives a person PERMISSION and OPPORTUNITY to opt out of a lot of self-confronting issues - and to be validated in doing so by the fat parent who pops up in exotic places as the icon of successful life management.

Thoughts please.....

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 14:25:09 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: A.P
Subject: Re:Questions
Message:
Dear Antipremie,

Thanks for the questions and your efforts in Miami. I hope somebody helps you out in May. And I certainly understand your bewilderment and frustration dealing with your significant other who has this very mysterious premie part to his or her personality. (I say 'his or her' because I don't know your gender - a common problem here).

Normal everyday intelligence won't work. Premies feel that they function on a different level, a 'higher consciousness' level. Some things make sence on that higher level that sound ridiculous on the mundane level.

I was the typical seventies premie, coming from a background of 'otherworldly' experiences with drugs that arroused my interest in the mystic states of Eastern yogis. The attraction of the guru is that he is supposedly in the heightened state of mind that you want to get to. A permanent high.

Materialistic concerns about money, drinking, and so forth are all beside the point. The guru can do whatever he wants to do. For instance, in 1996 in Amaroo, Daya put on a big dinner. Premies who could pay for it were treated to quite a feast, including plenty of meat and alcohol. I have two personal friends who were in Amaroo at the time. One could not afford to attend the dinner, and one could. The one who did attend the dinner bragged to me later about how much alcohol Maharaji put away at that dinner without any seeming effect on him. This type of thinking is perfectly consistent with the higherconsciousness aspirations of the guru's devotees.

Common sense of normal waking consciousness will go right over your premie friends' heads, I'm afraid. What to do? How to burst their bubble? Wish I knew. Keep trying, though. Maybe some other person here will have some suggestions.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 06, 2000 at 16:11:34 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re:Questions
Message:
Way:

What to do? How to burst their bubble? Wish I knew.

I think you have to keep pointing out the obvious: that the relationship is entirely one-way, and that there is no accountability coming from Maha about anything, nor any real communication allowed from the premies in the other direction. This is the crux of the matter, and though it goes over their heads for a long time it eventually sinks in. The details about Maha's rather Clintonesque lifestyle merely serves to speed up the process a little.

--Scott

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