Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 16:56:52 (GMT)
From: Apr 30, 2000 To: May 12, 2000 Page: 4 Of: 5


Jean-Michel -:- Here's details on what happened to my ex-website! -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:02:07 (GMT)
__ VP -:- JM, you criminal! -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 00:02:42 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Warning VP--Forum admins still anonymous... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 00:37:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ VP -:- Warning VP--Forum admins still anonymous... -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 19:03:24 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- Hi VP! -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 00:16:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ VP -:- Hi Katie! -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 19:07:29 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- JM is part fish--they call him fish boy! -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 21:41:54 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- JM is part fish--they call him fish boy! -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 21:46:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- JM is part fish--they call him fish boy! -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 23:39:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- JM is part fish--they call him fish boy! -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 21:57:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Now that I know all the secrets of BBQs ..... -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 22:17:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Now that I know all the secrets of BBQs ..... -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 23:09:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Now that I know all the secrets of BBQs ..... -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 23:42:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Now that I know all the secrets of BBQs ..... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 00:32:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Thank you -:- for that post.....(OT) -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 23:25:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- You're welcome (OT) -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 23:30:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine B. -:- Just read your journey -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 00:46:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Hi Elaine -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 01:49:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ajax -:- BTW,.... (ot) -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 03:01:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- BTW,.... (ot) -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 03:59:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- How rude can you get? -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 23:27:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- you Frenchies don't know what yer missin' -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 22:22:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- that funny cop -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 22:27:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- that funny cop -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 23:46:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- you're lucky it didn't happen in WEST Virginia! -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 23:12:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- EV could,'t do it, then how cops would? -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 03:55:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Hey! I didn't get stopped, you did! -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 13:52:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- EV could,'t do it, then how cops would? -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 04:07:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Katie, BTW, the book's reference -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 04:35:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Which one was that? -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 04:16:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Thank you for the book reference, and... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 04:46:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- The main thing in this book IMO -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 09:17:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Would you email me a copy of this? (nt) -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 09:13:14 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Good call, both you guys -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:06:18 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Glad I only offer satirically offensive material -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 22:13:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Those French premies would like to prove -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 22:23:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Those French premies would like to prove -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 22:26:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Coach -:- An' whadda 'bout the Ruskies -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 00:44:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- That's so crazy it just might work! -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 03:47:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- do you think they're mad ? -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 22:29:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- Glad I only offer satirically offensive material -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 22:14:10 (GMT)

G -:- Cults and mind control -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 19:33:15 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Cults and mind control -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 22:10:40 (GMT)
__ Gilead -:- Cults and mind control -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 19:34:55 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- G's not Gerry -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 19:36:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gilead Ji -:- G's not Gerry -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 19:44:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Speaking of names and ideologies... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 02:10:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ His Holiness Gilead Ji -:- Speaking of names and ideologies... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 02:41:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Speaking of names and ideologies... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 03:04:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ His Holiness Gilead Ji -:- Speaking of names and ideologies... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 03:56:05 (GMT)

Gilead -:- gErry Watch this conspiracy stuff dude -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 19:02:46 (GMT)
__ Jo -:- gErry Watch this conspiracy stuff dude -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:26:04 (GMT)
__ __ Gilead -:- gErry Watch this conspiracy stuff dude -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 02:48:16 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Oh no, not another one -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 19:35:45 (GMT)
__ __ Gilead Ji -:- Oh no, not another one -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:03:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gilead Ji -:- Don't Tell Al! -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:24:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- WHAT?????????????????????? -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:17:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Gilead Ji -:- YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:35:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, and Koresh was doing fine too for a while -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:46:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Gilead Ji -:- Amnesty International Condemns....... -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:59:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ GERRY -:- Amnesty International Condemns....... -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 21:39:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, Gilead, you're absolutely right -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 21:37:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Comrade Gilead -:- Yes, Gilead, you're absolutely right -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 23:36:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gilead -:- Jim??????????????? -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 00:04:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Boring ......... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 00:03:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- fascinating... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 00:10:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Tell us again, Gerry -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 00:20:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Shit Jim, you've outed me !!! -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 00:29:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Classic thinking error -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 01:40:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Your blind spot -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 02:12:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Gerry: Your blind spot!! -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 16:01:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Holy cow, you actually stand by this????? -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 02:41:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Which argument 'trick' is this one Jim? -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 02:57:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- It's the one where I stay on topic -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 03:26:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- I'm starting to feel a little sorry for you. -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 04:05:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Tht's okay, Ger, I'd be embarrassed too -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 05:50:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- I said sorry for you not embarrassed, you asshole -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 16:14:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Let's talk about the Icke and the Unseen Hand -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 18:19:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- I've reconsidered... -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 03:18:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- correction -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 01:46:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ His Holiness Gilead Ji -:- psychic timing (oops, a cultic conception) -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 00:08:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gilead -:- you still there??????????????????? -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 02:54:33 (GMT)

jondon -:- I went to videos for a while -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 17:56:22 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- You are going to LOVE that thing! -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 19:39:48 (GMT)
__ Gilead -:- I went to videos for a while -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 19:09:08 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- There's a litle history there -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 19:50:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine B. -:- There's a litle history there -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 12:19:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- touch of the Mahatma -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:21:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gilead Ji -:- There's a litle history there -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:10:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ CD -:- research and curiosity -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 08:16:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Off Fuck, Yoda -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 20:54:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- There's a litle history there -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:19:58 (GMT)

New Founder -:- Shri Hans Connection to Gurdjieff and Kirpal Singh -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 15:33:00 (GMT)
__ Anon -:- This may partly answer your question. -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 18:48:40 (GMT)
__ some1 -:- Justin Gold - attempted rebellion against Maharaji -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 18:07:01 (GMT)
__ Runamok -:- Shri Hans Connection to Gurdjieff and Kirpal Singh -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 16:33:15 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- Shri Hans Connection to Gurdjieff and Kirpal Singh -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 17:08:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- 'How do we know they are fake?' from ex-satsangi -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 19:40:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- It's like asking how to identify a real unicorn -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:04:23 (GMT)

Jim -:- Maharaji Delivers! -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 14:17:06 (GMT)
__ JIM, I'M CRYING LAUGHING -:- Maharaji Delivers and YOU TOO: EXTRA FUNNY!! nt -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 16:11:05 (GMT)
__ Gilead -:- Maharaji Delivers! What about homelessness, drugs, -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 19:16:39 (GMT)
__ new founder -:- Shri Hans Connection to Gurdjieff and Kirpal Singh -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 15:11:41 (GMT)
__ Maharaji -:- Fuck you Heller, you piece of shit (nt) -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 14:33:55 (GMT)
__ __ Jesus H. Christ -:- Fuck you Heller, you piece of shit (nt) -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 14:44:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Maharaji -:- Sweet Jesus H, that last one WASN'T Gerry, it was -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 15:22:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Turtle Head peeping -:- Fuck you Heller, you piece of shit (nt) -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 14:54:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ M. Ghandi -:- The truth about that robot piece of shit!! -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:59:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Da Divine Dumpa -:- Who says I don't know shit? -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 15:32:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Gilead -:- Maharaji Delivers -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 19:33:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- It's a rip-off from 'The Onion' -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:21:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ His Holiness Gilead Ji -:- It's a rip-off from 'The Onion' -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:37:12 (GMT)

James Flynn -:- ELK Poetry -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 12:34:24 (GMT)
__ Runamok -:- ELK Poetry -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 13:09:54 (GMT)

Angry -:- By His Grace-a prayer -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 10:13:05 (GMT)
__ Angry -:- By His Grace-a prayer?The Result -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 10:17:21 (GMT)
__ __ HAHAHAHAHA... -:- FUNNY -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 11:28:53 (GMT)

Mel Bourne -:- Gerry - Internet libel -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 09:52:36 (GMT)
__ hal -:- Mel you're such a pratt !! -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 20:24:25 (GMT)
__ Mel: Screw yourself!! -:- You deserve the best!! -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 16:21:54 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Questions for Mel: -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 11:55:05 (GMT)
__ __ Mel Bourne -:- Answer to Question 1 -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 13:04:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Partial answer... -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 13:17:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Full answer... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 02:20:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Full answer.??? Not so fast!! -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 16:33:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- I have given up on Mel that many times... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 17:59:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Sosumi -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 11:02:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Nigel your going for a swim?? -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 20:33:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Then sue me, you fucking twerp! -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 02:50:01 (GMT)
__ Mel Bourne -:- Sorry - Internet libel links again -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 10:05:07 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Sorry - Internet libel links again -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 17:31:27 (GMT)
__ __ Well, Melboring, we can -:- only hope the greaseball fraud pissant goober sues -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 17:03:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- So? -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 17:46:46 (GMT)

Jim -:- I'm bored ..... how can I become shizophrenic? -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 02:46:29 (GMT)
__ Regis Philbin -:- I'm bored ..... Hey Jim, want a date with Janice? -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 05:13:00 (GMT)
__ Madam Kaliedescopia -:- New age jargon= she has closed down -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 06:01:53 (GMT)
__ JW -:- Isn't Multiple Personality Disorder she has? -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 02:59:35 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Imagine where she thinks this is all heading -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 03:12:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Daneane -:- Its simple -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 03:14:11 (GMT)

Jim -:- It just doesn't get any better than this, does it? -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 02:43:57 (GMT)
__ Regis Philbin's therapist -:- It just doesn't get any better than this, does it? -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 05:24:41 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- sleep...sleeep...sleep -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 21:54:51 (GMT)
__ Pauline Premie -:- Ivete is just like me -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 03:09:46 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- You and Werner Erhard (that EST guy) -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 22:03:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pauline Premie -:- Maybe We Met Doing Service, but.... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 02:14:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Maybe We Met Doing Service, but.... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 03:24:33 (GMT)
__ __ raina -:- my pot to pee in -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 03:58:19 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Ivete is just like me -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 03:45:39 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Hey, look what I've just found !! -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 01:39:00 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- To EV-ex! -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 13:33:47 (GMT)
__ __ EV-ex -:- You da man! -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 17:15:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- O yeah !!!!!! -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 21:51:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Now can honestly be advertised as .............. -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:59:12 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Hey, look what I've just found !! -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 02:12:22 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- Hey, look what I've just found !! -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 01:42:49 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Does this mean you're again looking for them? -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 21:53:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Does this mean you're again looking for them? -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 22:10:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Does this mean you're again looking for them? -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 22:18:23 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Don't I have them??? NT lol -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 02:11:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- speaking of lost things..... -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 22:06:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- speaking of lost things.....OT -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 23:48:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- speaking of lost things.....OT -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 00:28:07 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- I haven't opened my hat's box yet!!! -:- Sat, May 06, 2000 at 01:55:43 (GMT)


Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:02:07 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Here's details on what happened to my ex-website!
Message:
Upon coming back from vacations in the US, here's the translation of the registered letter I found in my mail:

Club-internet ..... (my internet provider)
....
Paris, April ....

Dear Sir,

We have received on April 12, 2000, a letter from Mr. Lataste from the law firm in charge of protecting the legal interests of the company called Elan Vital. In this letter, they ask us to check your website's content and to take the necessary measures to remove any documents that infringe upon their copyright. Mr. Lataste informed us that you have reproduced various documents that are EV's exclusive property.

You are well aware that [such and such French code] states that 'any reproduction total or in part, without its author's permission, is illegal...' This is why we are asking you to send us by mail (in the following 8 days) any authorization you have to reproduce and publish those documents.

If you do not have their authorization, we are asking you to suppress those documents present on your pages. If we do not receive the authorizations we are asking for, and/or you do not suppress the documents, we will have to suppress the access to your pages. A copy of this letter is being sent to to Mr. Lataste. We hope that you understand this procedure, and send you, Sir, our best wishes.

Mrs ....

I called that person, had a nice talk with her, and anwered her this letter:

Dear ______,

In answer to your registered letter N/Ref:2000/04-290 and after our telephone conversation today, I confirm my intention to suppress from my website any reproduction of documents copyrighted by Elan Vital.

To accomplish this, I am requesting that you suppress all my personal pages. I plan to publish in the pages that my subscription allows only documents written by myself.

This said, as you can check for yourself in the bibliography that was presented on my website, the Elan Vital association (previously named Divine Light Mission - merely the name has been changed) is considered a cult by every authority on this matter.

Other documents on this issue, including many testimonies of former members are available on the US website http://www.ex-premie.org, including open discussion forums in English, French and Spanish.

I was a member of this group for more than 20 years. I had various responsibilities in its organizations for a very long time, and the documents I presented on my website are meant to allow anybody to have a clear understanding of what Elan Vital is really about.

Like many organizations of this type, and behind a seductive appearance, a very deceitful organization and guru are well hidden. For any interested person, or for any person doing research on this subject, the only way to understand the hidden aspects of this organization and his so-called 'teachings' is to be able to read a good choice of documents issued by this organization, as those documents are not accessible to the public, to newcomers, and even to most of the disciples. Doing this, of course, involves the risk of being attacked by these organizations.

I hope I have been able to help you understand the meaning of my involvement, and I hope I'll remain your client under normal conditions. Please accept my best wishes.

I explained the situation to the Ex-Premie.Org administrator who immediately offered to now host those criminal pages on Ex-Premie.Org

..........

So much for the vilains of EV France! No doubt they've spent a lot of time, energy and money in this procedure. To achieve what?

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 00:02:42 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: JM, you criminal!
Message:
That makes me sick. What a bunch of cult-os having to resort to censorship. They can't stand up to the truth, so they have to hide it. It is so transparent and slimy.

JM, you must have gotten them quite scared and freaked out.

Sorry I missed your American tour. I would have steered you far away from those coffee brands you bought--gak!

Take care,
VP

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 00:37:44 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Warning VP--Forum admins still anonymous...
Message:
I was hoping you'd show up sometime. I like you man but, you caused me a lot a grief when I was FA and wanted to be anonymous and you said you wouldn't participate if there was an anonymous FA. I relented and gave my name out SPECIFICALLY so you'd stick around. The harrassment was pretty intense and Runamok finally pushed me over the edge. I gave up. And here you are...not that I'm not glad to 'see' you, I am, but I wanted to say this to you so you'd know.
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 19:03:24 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Warning VP--Forum admins still anonymous...
Message:
Hi, Gerry.
Yes, I know all about that and I feel badly that it happened that way. I'm sorry that I talked you into anything you didn't want to do. The point I was trying to make was that MANY people might not participate if the FA was anonymous. I wasn't asking you to give your name only for my sake, although I have to say it was awfully nice of you to do that, anyway.

It wasn't a BAD idea. If people know who the FA is by name, they can have more confidence that the FA is not someone from Elan Vital. (Lots of paranoia associated with this whole cult thing, apparently :) Any FA should have been able to give their name and NOT be harrassed. It's too bad it doesn't seem to work out that way.

Sorry, Gerry. Don't hold it against me, please. For what it is worth, I think you did the right thing. Sometimes things don't go smoothly when you do the right thing, however.

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 00:16:21 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Hi VP!
Message:
Hi VP -
J-M WANTED the 'typical American coffee' (snicker) - I had to steer him TOWARDS those brands!

Good to see you here.
Love,
Katie

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 19:07:29 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Hi Katie!
Message:
I gathered that he wanted them, the question is....WHY?? Gak! Give me some of that French stuff any time.
Ha ha ha!
VP
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 21:41:54 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: JM is part fish--they call him fish boy!
Message:
God, that is amazing, they are so paranoid! The same thing is happening with the Spanish forum? Has forum 5's administrator received the same threatening letter?

On a happier note, how was the rest of your trip? We enjoyed meeting you. Everyone, here's a tidbit of trivia about Jm that will amaze and startle you--he can swim the length of a pool under water--he is part shark!Let the Elan Vital organization get ahold of that info!

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 21:46:06 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: JM is part fish--they call him fish boy!
Message:
I can do much better with some training ...... haha ......... and Colleen likes sharks, how is she doing? I love her!!
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 23:39:06 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: JM is part fish--they call him fish boy!
Message:
Dear JM and Helen,
That is an amazing story JM, I am glad the laws are different here so the pages can still be accessed.
I absolutely LOVE Colleen too!!! :) Of course we are both gemini's and who wouldn't like a gemini! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 21:57:50 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: JM is part fish--they call him fish boy!
Message:
Everyone loves Colleen (don't mean to brag, what can I say?!) She loved you and SB too, she likes the crazy action.

So when is the big ex-premie fest in France??--you'll do all the cooking of course--ha ha

My friends wanted to know 'who the Frenchman was'? I said--'He is my lover I met ont he internet!' HA HA

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 22:17:20 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Now that I know all the secrets of BBQs .....
Message:
ask Brian if he liked my ribs!!!!!!

Those Frogs here don't appreciate your dishes, and keep making fun of your coffee ..... I even purchased some Maxwell House 'slow roast' and Folgers 'classic roast' for my next party!

Ah, I almost forgot the Ezrah Brooks bourbon katie advised me ...... the best I've ever drunk!!

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 23:09:22 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Now that I know all the secrets of BBQs .....
Message:
Hi J-M!
I am really glad you liked that bourbon - I think it is the best, and it is not expensive either.

I work with a guy from Switzerland and I told him about you buying the Maxwell House and Folger's coffees to take to France, and he started laughing. He said those were very good choices for 'American' coffee. He also said that 'American' coffee is usually way too weak (it's true, too!). So don't make the coffee too strong if you want real 'American' coffee - yuk.

Brian liked the ribs a lot. I might even try and make some some time - especially if we get a hibachi. Actually he liked everything that you cooked, and I liked everything you cooked that I could eat - you are a great cook (he also does the dishes, everyone!).

Fletcher missed you and SB a lot (Henry forgot that you were here after a few hours...but what can you expect?)

Love,
Katie

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 23:42:14 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Now that I know all the secrets of BBQs .....
Message:
Dear Katie,
Apparently Henry associates JM and SB with the pics of M that made him puke! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 00:32:31 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Now that I know all the secrets of BBQs .....
Message:
Hi Robyn -
Henry is not the world's smartest cat, although he is a good selective barfer. (I still can't believe his aim...)

Love,
Henry's mom

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 23:25:17 (GMT)
From: Thank you
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: for that post.....(OT)
Message:
back on the raina-paxil thread.Yes, I did think you were kmdarling the counselor.I did not know honestly why cq and raina got so upset.With your input maybe it de-escalated them a bit. I didn't set out to upset anyone. Glad now I chose to be anonymous.I'll keep quiet next time.
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 23:30:38 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Thank you
Subject: You're welcome (OT)
Message:
I think I know who you are but I will keep my mouth shut. I read the thread and I know you were trying to be helpful - but, as I said, there is a stigma attached to SSRI's, etc., although they have helped a lot of people.

BTW, I did understand what you meant about suicide - I think I made that clear. I think a lot of us on the forum are hypersensitive about it.

Take care -
Katie (Mischa) Haering

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 00:46:32 (GMT)
From: Elaine B.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Just read your journey
Message:
Katie,

Followed the 'paxil' Thread - What are SSRS's - I mean what does it stand for.
I'm writing you bec you gave your name so I tried the Journey's and there you were. Very interesting. Feel I know you now.
You seem very level-headed. I'll be following more of your posts.
You don't seem as angry as others. What a pleasant relief.
I don't know tho - maybe your posts are filled with swearing - but I doubt it.
Pleased to meet ya,
Elaine B.

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 01:49:11 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Elaine B.
Subject: Hi Elaine
Message:
Hi Elaine -

Nice to 'meet' you too.

SSRI = Selective Seretonin Reuptake Inhibitor. These are a certain kind of anti-depressant (Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, etc. etc.) that are really popular now, as I'm sure you know.

I used to post here quite a bit, but 'real world' obligations have precluded that. I have made a lot of good friends here, though, and have met a lot of people who post here in person. I have read one or two of your posts (not many, as have been really busy lately), but I don't often argue with the premies who post here.

I think you are probably right in saying that I am not as angry as some of the other people who post here, although part of the reason for that is that I was not involved with Maharaji very long (ages 16-21), that I basically 'grew out of it', and that being a premie was actually a step UP from what I had been doing before that (rapidly self-destructing).

I found the forum in late summer 1997 - a friend of mine who had also been a premie had done a web search and told me about the ex-premie site and about a premie guestbook site that is now defunct. I really didn't have much interest, but wanted to find some people that I'd known way back when. Anyway, I found out that someone who had been very close to me when I was a premie had committed suicide in 1994. This upset me considerably - I'd been looking for this person for years - and I started reading the ex-premie site. When I found out what had happened to the ashrams, and about other things like the Miami DECA project, child abuse by Jagdeo, and how some ex-premies had been treated, I got even more upset, and wanted to DO something. Thus I became involved in posting and talking to other ex-premies & also in working on the ex-premie.org site.

About swearing (snicker) - I swear WAY too much in the 'real world'. Half my family works in the construction trades, where conversation often consists wholly of profanities, so I'm very inured to it. I usually manage to keep it out of my writing though.

Take care -
Katie (Mischa)

PS 'Mischa' was my hippie/premie name. Don't ask :)!

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 03:01:07 (GMT)
From: Ajax
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: BTW,.... (ot)
Message:
Did your brother make a full recovery from his accident last year?
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 03:59:44 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Ajax
Subject: BTW,.... (ot)
Message:
Hi Ajax (do I know you?) -
My bro is doing all right. He still has some short-term memory problems, but the doctors say that is normal after a head injury. His physical therapy (on his wrists and hands) had worked well. He'll probably never be 100% of what he was before the accident, but guess that happens to all of us eventually, anyway.

Thanks for asking -
Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 23:27:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Thank you
Subject: How rude can you get?
Message:
What, it didn't even occur to you to use a name, any name? God, some people!
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 22:22:23 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: you Frenchies don't know what yer missin'
Message:
Well now you can say you have tasted the best bourbon and coffee the world has known--yeah, buddy! All your guests will be mighty surprised at your next party when they dig into some of that there Maxwell House coffee, good to the last drop! You can tell them that their cafe au lait can go shove it, we 'mericans know how to do everything better!

Still laughing about your story of being stopped by the cops --You sure woulda had some a that good coffee in jail, yeah buddy!

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 22:27:30 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: that funny cop
Message:
was really playing cow-boy, hand on his gun, ready to pull it out of his holster ....... hahahaha

That poor guy with his teeth all over the place, I wonder wat he'd look like without his outfit!!

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 23:46:06 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: that funny cop
Message:
JM,
'That poor guy with his teeth all over the place, I wonder wat he'd look like without his outfit!!'
Hey, watch what you say about teeth all over the place!!! Mine are all over the place and any place! ;)
Without my outfit I'd have fewer places to hid my teeth! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 23:12:40 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: you're lucky it didn't happen in WEST Virginia!
Message:
Glad you made it back without getting thrown in jail...
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 03:55:10 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: EV could,'t do it, then how cops would?
Message:
I guess there's still some grace with me, specially when you know how fast SB would drive in a storm for 100s of miles .......
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 13:52:07 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hey! I didn't get stopped, you did!
Message:
So much driving...in between all our fights, I like you!! How cannot? You are divine!!

And of course, let me remind you that your line to the cop ' I don't know, I'm French' worked as a charm: He wanted to kill you!! hahahaha

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 04:07:22 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: EV could,'t do it, then how cops would?
Message:
Hi J-M -
Those cops in West Virginia have a lot of LOCAL power - they can be scary. But I doubt if they would want to mess with either you or SB! Either 'grace' or something else...

Hope you enjoy the 'American' coffee (snicker)!

Love,
Katie

P.S. Thanks for your e-mail message from Denver. Brian didn't forward it to me, but I got to see it by accident!

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 04:35:22 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Katie, BTW, the book's reference
Message:
From WH Smith

Don't know if you can get it from Amazon...

Far Out; The Dawning of New Age Britain
Author Humphries, Steve
Price Normal Price £14.99
Discount Price £11.99
You save £3.00
All prices in Sterling 20%
Discount

Biblio 25; Cloth
Binding Cloth
Published 15 April 1999
Publisher Sansom & Co.
Clubcard Points 119

Normally available for dispatch within 48 hours

Includes: Sid Hancock (ex-premie)'s interview, and lots of excellent analysis on the origins of the new age movement and it's various branches ..... all the stuff we believed in more or less!!!

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 04:16:55 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Which one was that?
Message:
I guess that's the one I've sent you when we got lost:--)))))
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 04:46:06 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thank you for the book reference, and...
Message:
... other people might be interested too. I hope I can get the book - I would love to read what Syd said (but I can always borrow it from Robyn!).

I did get an e-mail from you addressed to katie@ex-premie.org that said you were in Denver. Maybe EV is messing with our communications (snicker)?

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 09:17:14 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: The main thing in this book IMO
Message:
is that it also holds lots of testimonies of people who've got involved in veriour cults and beliefs.

It clearly shows that due to various circumstances, education, beliefs etc one would end up in one or another of these cosmic rides ....

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 09:13:14 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Would you email me a copy of this? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:06:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Good call, both you guys
Message:
Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke.
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 22:13:13 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: Glad I only offer satirically offensive material
Message:
Thank God that the House of Maharaji Drek has no such documents and, instead, offers filthly and scandalous material that is satirical and protected by law.

Whew!

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 22:23:55 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Those French premies would like to prove
Message:
they're the best (i.e. THEY can do what no one else could do), that's all ....

And now they've proved one thing: they are the most dumbest ..... hahaha!!!!!!

The documents I've worked so much on now belong to the exes community ..... and honestly I'm glad it happened this way. So funny !!!!!!!!

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 22:26:34 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Those French premies would like to prove
Message:
That is GREAT! You just tell 'em to kiss yer ass! They're American property now and we don't have to follow any stinkin' French laws!
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 00:44:33 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: An' whadda 'bout the Ruskies
Message:
Good point, H.

Best bet would be to sell 'em to the Russians. Those cats don't give a fuck about anyone.

What if the French government gave JM the Legion d'Honeur, or whatever, Croix de Guerre? They might, they can be quite liberal at times. Then he'd be sort of royalty. That'd make his ISP have a quick re-think.

Coach

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 03:47:10 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: That's so crazy it just might work!
Message:
Yes isn't that true, he could be a hero in France if the press gets wind of this. Well he's our hero, dammit!

Kidding aside, he is!

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 22:29:25 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: do you think they're mad ?
Message:
now they're ridicule.
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 22:14:10 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Glad I only offer satirically offensive material
Message:
ha ha--good one, ROger!
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 19:33:15 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Cults and mind control
Message:
Here's another link about this subject:

mind control

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 22:10:40 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Cults and mind control
Message:
Hey G
How are you doing? What's happening, any good dreams lately? I had a really weird one the other night, a female guru yelling at me in front of a group of followers, then saying it was for my 'own good.' Yuk, in the dream I was so angry but couldn't say anything because of course she was the Divine Master. Daneane was right, this path of 'Love' of 'speaking from the heart'is all abunch of bullshit, it was speaking the party line, that's all it was.

Thanks for the info about my dog--she is so funny.

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 19:34:55 (GMT)
From: Gilead
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Cults and mind control
Message:
G, if you're Gerry, did you read my messages to you?
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 19:36:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gilead
Subject: G's not Gerry
Message:
G's another ex who started posting here four or five months ago.
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 19:44:48 (GMT)
From: Gilead Ji
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: G's not Gerry
Message:
OK, you guys have some ideological similarities, maybe just from similar experiences as ex premies.
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 02:10:18 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gilead Ji
Subject: Speaking of names and ideologies...
Message:
...Gilead is the name of the puritannical, fundamentalist, conservative, male-dominated theocracy in Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale. Have you read it? It is a powerful and scary book about a possible near-future scenario. I was trying to figure out why your name disturbed me, and I finally realized where I'd heard it before (besides the Bible) that is.
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 02:41:07 (GMT)
From: His Holiness Gilead Ji
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Speaking of names and ideologies...
Message:
thanks Katie, for picking up on it. what about the anointed title of 'Ji' and 'Guru' that I sometimes use. With a name like Gilead Ji, I could start a 'REORGANIZED FAMILY OF LOVE AKA CHILDREN OF GOD' movement. Actually, Gilead is just my pen name for the forum.
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 03:04:02 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: His Holiness Gilead Ji
Subject: Speaking of names and ideologies...
Message:
Yuck, yuck, and yuck! How about switching to 'Gill' or something? Seriously, if it is your pen name, that's fine, but I just wanted to alert you to some of the connotations the word 'Gilead' has.
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 03:56:05 (GMT)
From: His Holiness Gilead Ji
Email: Reorganized COG
To: Katie
Subject: Speaking of names and ideologies...
Message:
Katie,
you're right, I'm just being a little sarcastic, to get some laughs, and maybe to help wake up some people.
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 19:02:46 (GMT)
From: Gilead
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: gErry Watch this conspiracy stuff dude
Message:
please note my reply to your message 'what that conspiracy stuff, dude'. I wanted to annouce it here, because there are so many other messages, and it may get missed. I'd also be curious to hear from others on this subject. I know that Hassan, and others, still like to say that everybody at Jonestown were zombies and willingly drank the poison, but the freedom of information documents from the FBI, and testimony of survivors, do not substantiate that position. For Hassan, I know it fits into his 'cult theory' very well, but the facts do not support it. I'm not saying that it wasn't a cult per se, but that these circular reasoned theories by 'experts' (who themselves can get cultic!) do not always match empirical facts. There was a psychologist who claimed to be an expert on cults, and the APA turned down her whole position-- yet she is big as a supposed expert on cults. I agree that cults exist, though they may be hard to operationally define. Just consider a Roman Catholic priest who may be guilty of sexually abusing children at the parish, using all kinds of abusive controls, and who wears a 'respectable' mask, just like Rev. Jim Jones, who was a respected Protestant minister from the same denomination that President Johnson, and others with influence, claimed membership--the Disciples of Christ. As far as civil liberties go, its a challenge to sort out what is a cult, and what is not. Every world religion, in many ways, probably started out as a cult. As long as someone voluntarily wishes to submit to certain beliefs, even if bizarre, as long as no one else is being harmed, its OK. Of course, it adds a new dimension if money is being ripped off of people, such as with M, who uses false advertising in his claims of the miraculous. I could see a case based on his deception and lies to the general public, for some action by the government on behalf of the citizens.
Hope I don't get in trouble with other ex premies for these thoughts.
GeRRy, please also see my response to your question, when you mentioned 'watch the conspiracy stuff dude'
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:26:04 (GMT)
From: Jo
Email: None
To: Gilead
Subject: gErry Watch this conspiracy stuff dude
Message:
Interesting post Gilead and yes it's a bit of a hot potato for this forum!
It so happens that I took an interest in the Jonestown fiasco years ago because I actually spent a lot of time living in Guyana
before, during and after those events - and I was last there just over two years ago for a few months. If you spend any amount of time there it is hard not to become aware of the constant background noise of the US military shennanigans that go on there in the form of 'special camps' about which which occasionally very weird reports circulate the locality.
I won't go into that here because I have not got the time, but
what I suggest, is that you email a friend called Laurie at dkahalas@akula.com
She was actually a member of Jones's group and survived the fiasco. She has an absolutely amazing story to tell and has lots of totally damming documentary evidence that was never allowed to see the light of day in the subsequent cover up. it bears no relation whatsoever to the 'official story'.
It seems that the 'religeous' presentation was a total fabrication to provide a front for the real activities that were going on.
Incidentally, even today it is sill a hotbed of very weird stuff that goes on there in the jungle.
Anyway - send Laurie an email - she'll be more than happy to put you more in the picture.

Regards
jo

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 02:48:16 (GMT)
From: Gilead
Email: None
To: Jo
Subject: gErry Watch this conspiracy stuff dude
Message:
Jo, yes, I know Laurie, she's cool (Gilead is my pen name, remember).
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 19:35:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gilead
Subject: Oh no, not another one
Message:
Gilead,

Give me a break with this bullshit that cult critics like Hassan 'themselves can be cultic'. That is a very stupid sentiment that only derives from knee-jerk defensive kicks by flailing cult members. It makes absolutely no sense and is an insult to anyone trying to take cults like Maharaji's to task. But, sure, this is just my opinion. If you think I'm wrong, make your case. Tell just how Hassan or any other cult critic themselves 'exhibit cultic behaviour'. (Warning: your answer will be submitted in its entirety to Albert Ellis).

So what's your theory about Jonestown anyway? I say CIA or no CIA these people were enslaved by an cult leader and his sick ideology and were pressured into acting like goons towards any amongst them that might openly question, let alone try to leave. What do you think?

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:03:02 (GMT)
From: Gilead Ji
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh no, not another one
Message:
Does Hassan know Dr. Ellis too? I may be mistaken, but I heard that Hassan engaged in the illegal deprogramming activities. People have a right to spout off any kind of crazy thoughts they want, as long as they are no harm to self or others (thats one area where I strongly disagree with the ACLU, when they defended the Nazis right to propagate their bullshit, since it was defaming and hate mongering toward others).
No, I also heard that Hassan sticks to a rigid theory of cults, and makes them 'fit' his 'model'. Thus, every identified 'cult', such as the Family, Scientology, Unification, DLM/EV, Maharsishi TM, etc., are exactly the same, in terms of methods of brainwashing. When it came to Jonestown, his model fit the notion that the Jonestown people were brainwashed zombies, and drank that poison freely. I've talked first hand to survivors, including Stanley Clayton, and that just isn't the case -- it was murder in most cases. The mothers tried to resist and guards grabbed babies out of their hands, against the will of the parent. Most of the people were injected with cynaide, and did not drink that poison. Even Jim Jones was murdered, according to investigators. I agree that there was something that went insane in Jones on that tragic day of November 18 1978. Not only insane, but evil. Based on the evidence, the church that Jim led, Peoples Temple, had created an excellent community, but then the leader went crazy on them. Have you ever seen the documentary, 'Investigative Reports: Jonestown' by A & E ? That video, and also my many talks with survivors, say that Jonestown would have survived without Jim Jones. He became a tyrant when he left California and lived in Jonestown. JONES WAS THE PROBLEM, NOT PEOPLES TEMPLE, according to most survivors. Debbie Layton Blakey, and some of the other white elite members of the inner circle, who were involved in many of the illegal actions of Jones, tend to act like they didn't do the very things they criticize. Tim Stoen seemed like a CIA operative, the way he was Jones's right hand man, and then had the financial backing to live so wealthy and travel all over the world, in an effort to then destroy Jonestown. Stoen did all of the illegal things, according to Mark Lane, that Jones was supposedly doing. People forget, it wasn't Jim Jones acting alone. He had a committee around him. Larry Schact, was a total nut, the doctor at the camp. He was all for cyinadie, based on an FBI document, which is a letter he wrote to Jones.

Anyway, Hassan, and many in that anti cult circle, have developed their theories and models, and they try to make it 'fit' every group. I also object to that illegal deprogramming that Hassan engaged in. It can lead to witch hunts, which have not been a pleasant aspect of American history. Whether one person is a communist, another a John Bircher, and yet another a contented Hare Krishna, the Constitution teaches everybody theoretically has a right to freedom of belief. I agree that it gets grey, when a group or person's talk is harassing, or doing harm to others, such as the Nazis, Skin Heads, and other hate groups--then the people need to be protected. If somebody wants to give all of their money to somebody, that's there business, in our supposedly 'free enterprise' society (thats another problem for another paper).

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:24:49 (GMT)
From: Gilead Ji
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Don't Tell Al!
Message:
I forgot, don't tell Al (Dr. Ellis) about these positions. He might get upset with me. One his lectures, entitled 'Living Rational in an Irrational World', he strongly attacks people who want to use magic, and is not sympathetic with people at the time (it was an old tape lecture) who wanted to establish a Committee to Re-Elect Richard Nixon, after watergate. I hope he won't think its all magic and irrationality, or worse yet, paranoia!
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:17:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gilead Ji
Subject: WHAT??????????????????????
Message:
Based on the evidence, the church that Jim led, Peoples Temple, had created an excellent community, but then the leader went crazy on them.

What was so excellent about their community? The fact that it existed before it exploded? You've got to be kidding. Please elaborate because as far as I'm concerned Jones collected and isolated his people via the same paranoid ideology that eventually blew up in his head like a poisonous milk pod.

Yes I saw the A&E piece and yes I appreciate that this fucked up madman attracted others of somewhat comparable ilk in his service. So what? That's basic cult sociology. For every Maharaji there's a Fakiranand (the crazy Mahatma who tried to kill the guy that threw the pie at Maharaji). And just becaues people didn't necessarily want to die with or for Jones doesn't mean they weren't mentally enslaved by him. That's a stretch.

I also disagree that it's 'okay' for people to think whatever they want so long as they don't hurt anyone. It's probably the only reasonable position to take vis-a-vis civil liberties but it's far from 'okay' in other respects. 'Okay' can mean a lot of things. I don't think it's morally okay for anyone to seduce another like that.

As for Hassan and his rigid attitude to all things cultiv, you might disagree with his ideas but that is a far, far cry from them being 'cultic' in any way whatsoever. Come now.

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:35:25 (GMT)
From: Gilead Ji
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message:
Jim, you must be a follower of Hassan, to feel so strong about my critique. Concerning Jonestown, it was visited by many influential people. Charles Garry, the famous attorney, called it a Paradise. Rev. John Moore, the superintendent of the United Methodist Church for Northern California, also praised its achievements highly during his visits, he also had two daughters and a grandchild who died on that tragic day of 11/18/78. Your comments do make a good point which I forgot to mention. Based on the evidence, it started out very well in the mid 1970's. However, toward the end, with Jim's mental instability and authoritarian approach of control, and also when food rations became limited (though some survivors say thats an exaggeration by people who rightfully feel angry, in their grief, at Jonestown, that the meals were adequate), the community was falling apart. If Jim Jones had not been there, (many were hoping secretly he might die, as he complained of immenent death from illness), the community could have moved forward. Mike Prokes, in his last will and testiment, states this position, along with many survivors today.
Let me say, I've listened to hundreds of tapes from Jonestown, read most of the books available, and also spent some time with survivors. I probably know a lot more than the average person, based on all of this research. I hope to write a book at some point.
It is significant if the CIA was involved, because 913 Americans died. One thing at Jonestown that is relevant to this stance, is 'Those Who Do Not Remember the Past Are Condemned to Repeat It' -- perhaps that is why the sign was used at the 20th anniversary memorial service in Oakland, California. We as citizens must hold the government accountable, or you or me may be the next victim.
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:46:00 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gilead Ji
Subject: Yes, and Koresh was doing fine too for a while
Message:
Gilead,

To what extent was there every any plurality in Jonestown? Who else was alowed to make major decisions besides Jones? Right, no one. It was sick from the start. I don't care how many people didn't see that before the deaths. It's obviously true in retrospect. I also don't care how many former members try to find something salvageable in their memories. That's their problem, trying to make some sense of their lives. I know enough about Jonestown to feel comfrtable saying the entire enterprise, starting with Jones' isloationist strategy of going to Guyana in the first place, was corrupt.

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:59:50 (GMT)
From: Gilead Ji
Email: SPEAKING TRUTHFULLY
To: Jim
Subject: Amnesty International Condemns.......
Message:
Amnesty International, by the way, condemned the FBI's use of CS gas on those innocent children at the compoound. Even cult members, according to Amnesty International, should be covered by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Jim, I don't think it matters what kind of documents, tapes, films, etc., you may see about Jonestown. I know that the media's version of things effected the consciousness of the nation. Propaganda always does. Do you ever consider the media, which is paid for by the few wealthy people that run the country, under capitalism, as cultic and an invasion against the people? Western capitalism under the New World Order, actually uses brainwashing methods in its control of the media. For example, how many Americans know about UNICEF's report that over 600,000 Iraqi children have died from the sanctions imposed on the Iraqi people (yes, not Saddam Hussein, but the masses of Iraqi people suffer--Muslims, Jews, and Christians). The media is also responsible for the quick fix brainwashing, and that's something that cult leaders exploit, with the breakdown of values and meanings (like the existential vacuum that concentration camp survivor Viktor Frankl talks about in Man's Search for Meaning). Also, though most premies and ex premies aren't African American, and thus probably would not understand, consider how the Black Panthers were totally demonized by the media, in cooperation with the FBI's dictates from J. Edgar Hoover (the guy who feared to be himself, but attacked others who were gay).
I hate to break the news,Jim, but this cult thing, or the warfare of trying to control people's minds, is much larger than the revivalist preachers like Jimmy Swaggart and Maharaji, to name a few. It IS PART OF POLITICAL WARFARE BY VARIOUS GOVERNMENTS!!! For instance, Libyan leader Muammar Al Qathafi is loved by the African masses as a humanitarian, and even received the highest human rights award from the then President Nelson Mandella of South Africa -- but he has been labelled a terrorist by the cultic propaganda machine of the New World Order, out of London, Tel Aviv, and Washington DC. The state terrorism of the United States, when they dropped bombs in an attempt to murder Qathafi, and when they did murder his daughter, all in TRipoli, are left out of the cultic equation of the controlled media.

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 21:39:58 (GMT)
From: GERRY
Email: None
To: Gilead Ji
Subject: Amnesty International Condemns.......
Message:
Heller is an ignorant big mouth know-it-all who hasn't read a book in 20 years...

Don't waste your time with him.

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 21:37:08 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gilead Ji
Subject: Yes, Gilead, you're absolutely right
Message:
You know, I've never heard your argument before. It's amazingly refreshing, the evil American empire, the 'ctultic (hey, there's that word again!) western media... Good stuff, Gilead. Can't wait for your book. (Or will that be published under a pseudonym too?)
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 23:36:07 (GMT)
From: Comrade Gilead
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, Gilead, you're absolutely right
Message:
No, I'll disclose my real name as a 'gift' (just joking, trying to sound cultic, like M!). But, I will stand behind it with my real name, and though many questions remained unanswered, hope it may give some new analysis of the information that's available. About the evil western empire, I see propaganda and deception used by all political ideologies to influence people--Western and Eastern, Capitalist & Communist. Personally, I do not endorse either materialist economic conception, Marxist Lenonist or New World Order Capitalism, but find a Third Universal Theory to be more open, but that's another paper.

The United States was guilty, just like the Communist regimes, of suppressing political freedom. Just consider the Black Panthers, Dr. Martin Luther King, the American Indian Movement, to mention a few, who were victims of that man who would not dare to be himself, J Edgar Hoover, and his COINTELPRO. Today, how many people would maintain good jobs if they openly stated they were Communists, or checked off voodoo for personal religion (which has been a practiced faith in Nigeria, Benin, and other parts of West Africa and the Carribean). No, racism and the New World Order can create 'economic embargos' for dissenters in this 'free country'. The intelligence community of this counrty have also been experts in the art of assasinations, or of discrediting persons they think are having too much influence with the people.

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 00:04:36 (GMT)
From: Gilead
Email: None
To: JIm
Subject: Jim???????????????
Message:
ANY COMMENTS?
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 00:03:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Comrade Gilead
Subject: Boring .........
Message:
I guess this is what you get when you hang out with ex's and other people on the periphery of a stupid cult, namely, people that could have taken this trip seriously in the first place. Okay, we're all guilty. Lay your boring cliched ideas on us, Gilead. We deserve it.
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 00:10:51 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Gilead
Subject: fascinating...
Message:
but not to that mastermind Jim boy. See, Gilead, he's been through it all, he's read all the literature, investigated it all in depth and come to his 'right man' conclusions the hard way--through the lens of a guy he just knows in his guts he knows it ALL and everything is as it appears to be on the surface. But don't make the mistake of thinking this genius is superficial. Oh no, he's got more depth than one of those deep sea bathescopes. Just ask him.
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 00:20:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Tell us again, Gerry
Message:
Tell us again how David Icke is a decoy for the elites that really run the world. What's the theory? That they want all conspiracy buffs to look nuts so no one will take them seriously?

I guess one could similarly argue that you were a decoy for premies, huh?

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 00:29:51 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Shit Jim, you've outed me !!!
Message:
But thanks for using the word 'theory.' It is the operative condition here. You can't emphasize this FACT enough That they want all conspiracy buffs to look nuts so no one will take them seriously? This is EXACTLY correct. Even YOU get it !!! Good job. Now you're demoted to mere diarreah (shit, I never could spell that word but I think you understand.

And yeah, I'm still at the Lotus Feet (forgive me Lord but it was for a good cause.)

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 01:40:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Classic thinking error
Message:
Gerry,

It's painfully obvious that you're committing a gross analytical mistake. You're not weighing probablities fairly but, instead, are clinging to an extremely unlikely explanation so as to protect your far-fetched conspiracy ideas. Your speculation has no foundation but you're so enamored of where you think it gets you that you're not recklessly waving it around as it deserved any serious consideration. That's irrational.

In specifics, you concede that David Icke looks mad. He thinks reptilian aliens have somehow commandeered planet earth and has a million byzantine plots and sub-plots that he thinks all come together to fill in the big, big picture. You know that's crazy yet you're taken with lots of Icke's other nonsense. So what do you do? Rather than take the reasonable step of really second-guessing Icke's other ideas and, in fact, wondering anew about any of these conspiracy buffs that seem to fascinate you so much, you do something bizarre. You imagine 'what if Icke was sent out as a decoy?' or something.

Now this is sheer speculation. Not only is there no evidence that there are any such 'elites' to begin with, there is definitely no evidence that they plant bogus-looking conspiracy nuts in our midsts to send the rest of us off their trail laughing. No evidence of that whatsoever. Is it possible? Sure. Likely? Of course not. And it's the likelihood that matters here, Gerry. Likelihood is everything.

But then likelihood's always been a problem for you, hasn't it? Again, let me remind you of your treatment of Chapelle and SB. You know what I'm talking about. In each case you formed a hypothesis and treated it as a proven fact. You just knew Chapelle was fake because, in your mind, no sincere person would ever talk as openly as he did, in the circumstances, about his early sexual problems. You were so sure of that there was no stopping you. It was as if you'd found a secret confession of his or something, one in which he admits that he's not really a former premie but is just having us on. That's the kind of confidence you displayed. And so you went after Chapelle accordingly and, tell me, is it any wonder that he immediately quit posting here? No, I don't think so.

Of course you since recanted all your case against him. But the question is, did you learn anything form that experience? What?

And yes, SB. Here's a woman who claims to be an ex who says that she came from a Spanish-speaking country and learned English only when she came to America as a young adult. She's got a bit of an 'accent', if you will, but you, Sherlock, decide that you can definitely see that she's putting us on with that and you go to town on her. Even while I and others perhaps are trying to warn you that we've talked with her, she's legit and whatnot, no, you, Gerry the linguistics expert, can't be dissuaded. She's a fake and you're gonna let her have it. So what do you do? You get her real name (or part of it) from Recent Exe's and post it here as if to say that her whole story of not wanting trouble with her premie ex-husband was, without a doubt bullshit. Not even a niggling thought in your head that maybe, just maybe, you were wrong and thus might be doing this woman irreparable harm. You didn't have to deal with such niceties, you just knew you were right. Remember?

Well I saw you ask her if she wanted to be your friend the other day. should she want that, Ger? Would you if you were her?

Anyway, that was what should have been a lesson for you. Was it? What did you learn?

I'm sorry, Ger, I think you really have a problem and I'd be lying if I said otherwise. You're just not thinking straight is the only way I can put it.

Now, what's it gonna be? 'Fuck you Heller you piece of shit'? What does that prove? And yes, if you keep spamming me I'll do my utmost to have you blocked. But that's not the main issue here. The main issue is what, if anything, have you learned from your mistakes and how, if at all, can you apply that knowledge to your current life?

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 02:12:44 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Your blind spot
Message:
Not only is there no evidence that there are any such 'elites' to begin with, there is definitely no evidence that they plant bogus-looking conspiracy nuts in our midsts to send the rest of us off their trail laughing. No evidence of that whatsoever...

If you really believe this, you are hopeless.

And you are inaccurate, as it suits your case:

You just knew Chapelle was fake because, in your mind, no sincere person would ever talk as openly as he did, in the circumstances, about his early sexual problems.

I never accused him of being a fake 'anything.' And his 'sexual problems' weren't from his childhood, they were present day.

This is also inaccurate:

You get her real name (or part of it) from Recent Exe's and post it here as if to say that her whole story of not wanting trouble with her premie ex-husband was, without a doubt bullshit. Not even a niggling thought in your head that maybe, just maybe, you were wrong and thus might be doing this woman irreparable harm. You didn't have to deal with such niceties, you just knew you were right. Remember?

My 'outing' of her consisted of saying that SB was (insert three or four psuedos here) and Susan. How's that get her trouble with her ex-husband? And no, I didn't have any foreknowledge of her problem with her ex-husband before that, as much as you would like to make it out that I did.

As for who has problems, look into the mirror, Mr. Right Man.

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 16:01:56 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Gerry: Your blind spot!!
Message:
You lied again...Maybe you forgot... In many of my first posts I said that I had a lot to share about EV and I was going to do it later, when I felt most comfortable talking...because I was afraid... I did explained...You knew... You just went crazy without measuring the consecuences of your words!! Why? In my book because you lack certain attributes...but well... You don't seem to love or respect yourself too much...What can I expect from you?

I hope you learned something... I wish I was in your brain when you saw that JM and I were traveling together... You had to eat that! Life is a book...Learn from it....

You look like a baby... You know?

ps: All I had to say about EV ended in this site: JM posted it for me!! hahahaha....I'm an EX!!! No bad feelings...I told you all I had to say to you. Have a great life!!

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 02:41:20 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Holy cow, you actually stand by this?????
Message:
I said:

Not only is there no evidence that there are any such 'elites' to begin with, there is definitely no evidence that they plant bogus-looking conspiracy nuts in our midsts to send the rest of us off their trail laughing. No evidence of that whatsoever...

And you said:

If you really believe this, you are hopeless.

So let me get this straight: you think that it is beyond question that the 'elite's plant bogus-looking conspiracy nuts in our midsts to send the rest of us off their trail laughing.' In fact, it's so indisputable that I'm 'hopeless' for claiming there's no evidence on any such thing? You actually believe that?

And, about Art Chapelle, you also say:

I never accused him of being a fake 'anything.' And his 'sexual problems' weren't from his childhood, they were present day.

Maybe you're right about the timing of his sexual problems. Whatever. But you're saying you never accused him of being 'fake'? What did you accuse him of? Do you deny that you attacked him? For what?

As for SB, why do you avoid the subject? It's really simple. Do you deny that you 'outed' her as best you could? Why?

But most importantly, don't you understand anything I'm talking about? There's a pattern, Gerry. Too bad for you that you can't see it.

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 02:57:21 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Which argument 'trick' is this one Jim?
Message:
Listen you fucking jerk off I never ONCE avoided talking about SB. And I never denied I 'attacked' Art. I made an effort to make amends with him, emailed him, and sorted out the whole thing out. I still get greetings (Xmas time) from him.

You can do your own homework on what's happening in the world, if you can get your eyes off the TV and this website.

The only pattern I can discern around here is you are consistently a bullying, distorting, lying, ROTTEN PIECE OF SHIT !!!

I understand what you are talking about. Only too well.

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 03:26:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: It's the one where I stay on topic
Message:
Your idea about Icke is sheer madness, do you know that? Sheer fucking madness. But don't just take my word for it. Ask around.
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 04:05:27 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'm starting to feel a little sorry for you.
Message:
You hit me with all this stuff about SB and Art and I respond and now I'm off topic with the Icke stuff? Man what's wrong with you? Talk about crazy. You're more fucked up than I imagined.

Look pal I'm hip to your bait and switch, hit and run argument style. Works good in the court room, for sure, but it's out of place here.

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 05:50:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Tht's okay, Ger, I'd be embarrassed too
Message:
Gerry,

Let's face it. You've backed yourself into one of the most ridiculous corners I've ever seen here, asserting your claim that madman Icke is an Elite World Leader decoy to make us think that all conspiracy buffs are nuts. It's such an amazingly stupid thing to think I can see you're not wanting to deal with it. Too bad you said it in the first place. Maybe, given long enough, everyone can forget about it, huh?

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 16:14:33 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: the piece of shit
Subject: I said sorry for you not embarrassed, you asshole
Message:
Icke could actually be exactly what I say he could be. Yes I stand by it and no, it's not that far fetched.

Actually I hope it's NOT the case but I certainly might be.

I think he's a good person at heart and could be used but the 'Unseen Hand' for this purpose, yeah.

And I'm really disappointed you didn't take my advice and kill yourself. Do it Jim, do it!

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 18:19:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Let's talk about the Icke and the Unseen Hand
Message:
How would that work, Ger? Maybe the Illuminati spiked his tea or something? Fed him a lot of true bits of really, good information, got him to publicize it, then made him mad so that everyone would always associate his probing insights with craziness? Is that the idea? Something like that?

And you think that's not far-fetched?

How about this for an alternative theory. Icke spirals into madness to being with. Grand delusions of the class sort. Fancies himself God at one point. Starts off on some manic 'research' where reason and probablity are just cautionary signs for the weak and timid. Writes breathless books jam-packed with interesting half-truths and outrageous theories, one building on another, each more fantastic than the last. Conjures a web of connectivity that simply must capture every last detail of life and lays it all at the feet of the mysterious Illuminati. Like all madmen, has no capacity to hear any rational criticism but, instead, sees each complaint as further proof that he must be on to something incredible, otherwsie why would he incur such resistance. All the while, he's simply mad. But who can tell him? No one.

Now, I'd say that the latter is a severely more likely scenario than the first. Why? Well, for one thing, we know that people really can be manic and paranoid. You don't need no Invisible Hand for that. For another, there is absoltuely no evidence of any such Invisible Hand to begin with. That's just a speculative part of your explanation that itself is unproven.

Gerry, won't you listen to reason? You say:

Actually I hope it's NOT the case but [it] certainly might be.

Again, I'm not denying for a second that it's possible that your theory's true. That's not the issue. It's possible in exactly the same way that it's possible that Maharaji's the Lord. Possible but ABSOLUTELY AMAZINGLY EXTREMELY unlikely! Don't you see that?

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 03:18:13 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I've reconsidered...
Message:
I now think Icke could very well be correct in his Reptilian theory...and you are one of them.
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 01:46:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: correction
Message:
Your speculation has no foundation but you're so enamored of where you think it gets you that you're not recklessly waving it around as it deserved any serious consideration.

shouldn't have the word 'not' in it. And the word 'if' should go before 'it deserved'

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 00:08:22 (GMT)
From: His Holiness Gilead Ji
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: psychic timing (oops, a cultic conception)
Message:
Hey Jim, I was sending you a message for a reply and then, as soon as it was posted, there you were with a reply. Not one that was flattering, of course (saying its a bore, that hurt, man!). Hey, you might be listening in to my radio and television, oh no, maybe I need an evaluation for being paranoid, its all your fault! No, I'll just challenge the absolutes, like Doc Al would say!
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 02:54:33 (GMT)
From: Gilead
Email: 'the Boring Man Wonder'
To: Jim
Subject: you still there???????????????????
Message:
where are you?
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 17:56:22 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I went to videos for a while
Message:
I used to go to the videos with my roommate. I went for about a year, I was kinda interested, although I was looking around in bookstores and libraries trying to get some dirt on this guy, something just didn't seem kosher. (this was before the internet was up and running, probably about 5 years ago). I went to one of those things where you ask for the gift of knowledge. People would ask for it and then go into this song and dance about how much he means to them and how they will do anything for him. One guy broke down and cried 'When I see M, I can't contain myself I stand up and dance and cheer, I love Him.' yada yada yada.....I'm getting sick again.

So when it comes to me to ask for the gift, I'm thinking to myself, you gotta be shittin' me. I'm intrigued as to what it is about, my roomy won't tell me (of the techniques), I'll give the guy (myself) an hour (or halfhour) each morning to get in touch or whatever, but I ain't going out of my way for this dude. Give me this thing you say is for free or screw. And so, I don't say nothin', don't ask for nothin'. My roomy says I missed a golden opportunity, I says, I ain't ready for it, I don't feel like the others.

So I lost interest in it. I found this site and now I just enjoy reading others' stories and sharing ones of mine (my roomy's). Should be a good one soon from Beantown (Boston). I am happy to know I made the right decision and not follow this creepy little man, and if I can help anyone with their decision then great. Don't do it man, you don't want his green eggs and ham. You don't want them here or there, you don't want them anywhere.

My LOTU video should be here soon. Can't wait.

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 19:39:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: You are going to LOVE that thing!
Message:
Jondon,

Swear to God, you can feel free to invite a few friends over, have a couple of drinks or whatever you do and then watch it, knowing that you're hosting an evening of fine entertainment. Trust me, you don't want to watch it alone. Too funny.

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 19:09:08 (GMT)
From: Gilead
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: I went to videos for a while
Message:
jondon,
so I'm not so alone after all, in watching those videos! I can identify with you, cause I was also always somewhat suspicious of this guy M. and the hold he had on his 'premies'. When I got on this site, and saw the four techniques, it put the premies in an aukward position. I asked them, what if I already have the gift from the internet? They then said, what do you mean? I then explained that ex premies have it explained very thoroughly, with pictures and everything. The premies then claimed that 'well, you found it, but thats not enough, you got to have Maharaji pass his gift along with the four techniques, or you will get confused, whatever you do, don't practice those four techniques, until Maharaji passes on his gift with them.' Then, I heard that his brother Shri Satpal, who also has a web site, claims the same thing about the four techniques, but can't stand his brother M, even to the point of not acknowledging his existence (even though they both talk about the fundamentals of existence all the time, how each person has 'something' 'sweet' inside of them). I guess M and Shri Satpal don't see that special something inside of each other, despite their being brothers, and formerly known as members of a Holy Family.
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 19:50:53 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gilead
Subject: There's a litle history there
Message:
Gilead,

It used to be that the 'Knowledge' was only passed on by the phyiscal touch of a saint. Maharaji, being Lord of the Universe and all, would create saints out of anything.... well, they were usually (read 'always') his followers but the point was there, he could turn a frog into a saint if he wanted to. (Hm, come to think of it, JM....?) Anyway, these saints were called 'Mahatmas' (literally 'Sexual Predators').

So Maharaji had a bunch of these Mahatmas who'd travel around and, by his Grace, open peoples' third eyes by directly doing the light technique to them. That was the magic central moment in the Knowledge session, when the mahatma, acting as a fully franchised, empowered conduit of grace, touched you and made you Maharaji's.

So it was in the context of that particular superstition that the dogma very clearly stated that the techniques on their own were worthless. You needed the touch of the authorized agent. No touch, nothing.

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 12:19:13 (GMT)
From: Elaine B.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: There's a litle history there
Message:
I'm sorry I'm going to have to steal you're line - Mahatma's (Literaly 'Sexual Predators'). I won't be giving you credit.

Elaine

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:21:00 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: touch of the Mahatma
Message:
I remember the bs that premies said back then about the Mahatma touching you. Funny how it was the 'light' technique that involved touch. The Mahatma squeezes your eyeballs and you see light. You're supposed to think this is the Light of God, caused by Maharaji's grace being passed on.

I remember waiting for the Mahatma to touch me, figuring that I would be blasted into the seventh heaven or beyond as soon as he did. I was terrified, I had been told that Knowledge was an 'infinite experience'. It was a little like having a gun to my head. I mean, 'infinite', that would be the end of me. How could I and the 'infinite' coexist?

So he squeezed my eyeballs, I saw some light (really triggered by neural impulses due to the pressure). I wondered, what the hell is this, this doesn't seem infinite. But hey, it was something. It didn't consciously connect that I had rubbed my eyeballs before and seen the same light, I didn't want to figure it out. So there I still was, little me, sitting there disappointed but not admitting it.

The same thing happened with darshan, the same disappointment.

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:10:32 (GMT)
From: Gilead Ji
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: There's a litle history there
Message:
Jim,
I appreciated this web site also because of the historic archives. I asked the premies about Divine Light Mission, and they deceptively acted as if they didn't know what I was talking about, until I pushed it with them. Then, patronizingly, they would say 'well, Maharaji loves the people so much, he changed the way he presents things, but its all the same, he has taken much persecution for his courage and love in making these changes, you will not understand it until he gives you his special gift' (I'm paraphrasing from my memory of these question and answers at video events). Being a researcher, I wanted to know. Such weak answers didn't satify my curiosity. Then, when I showed them print outs from your web site, of original DLM documents, they would say 'that is something, I don't remember ever reading that before, but it looks authentic'-- these premies had previously admitted to being in the DLM since the 1970's, before the switch to EV.
This forum helped to expose them for what they are.
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 08:16:31 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Gilead Ji
Subject: research and curiosity
Message:
>Being a researcher, I wanted to know. Such weak answers didn't satify my curiosity.

The truth is that your curiosity will never be satisfied.
The truth is also that whatever theories and critiques people may put together there have been people that have experienced an exremely pleasant feeling of joy from there exposure to M and K. The K techniques are no more the total than a piece of wood and steel strings are a good songmaker. Something else has to be in the mix for the music to give one that feeling that is hard to explain and fills you with a rush.
Most great things around us have no ultimate explanation. Sure we have our models and discussions, but the truth is as elusive as our ability to control hurricanes.
We live on a ball in the middle of infinite space and time. It is really not so far fetched that what is the life in us has the ability to feel what it is and in that feeling is peace and vibrance.
Don't become too enamored in logic. It has its place but is not the source of true happiness and love.

Regards,
CD

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 20:54:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Off Fuck, Yoda
Message:
You're braindead.
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:19:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gilead Ji
Subject: There's a litle history there
Message:
Gilead,

As you can see in the thread above, I disagree with you quite strongly on some things. But I do appreciate this savy pas-de-deux you've had with the Maharjai cult. Good work.

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 15:33:00 (GMT)
From: New Founder
Email: newfounder@yahoo
To: Everyone
Subject: Shri Hans Connection to Gurdjieff and Kirpal Singh
Message:
I am a moderator of a forum for Ex-Satsangis
(Radha Soami line)
over at http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/exsatsangisupportgroup.

A question has been posed on one of our RS forums as follows:

........................................
I have heard that Shri Hans Ji was a student of Hazur Maharaj
Sawan Singh. I studied breifly in Santa Barbara with an
American spiritual teacher named Justin Gold, whose master was a
South American man named Raya. Justin told me that his master,
Shri Hans Ji, and George Gurdjieff sat with my
guru, Sant Kirpal Singh, at the feet of Sawan Singh.

Gurdjieff never mentions this, as far as I know, and I was
wondering what the story is, about Sawan Singh and Shri Hans Ji,
and why this is not mentioned (by Prem Pal initiates). I know
that the practices are different (from the teachings given by Kirpal Singh),
as we do not touch the eyes or invert the tongue, and I do not know
if (Prem Pal initiates).use the panch-shabd mantras as given out by Sawan Singh.'
........................................

Does anyone here have answers to any of these questions?

Many thanks for your trouble.

you may reply to me at

newfounder@yahoo.com

New Founder

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 18:48:40 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: New Founder
Subject: This may partly answer your question.
Message:
The following are direct quotes from Professor David Lane, who has done considerable study on Radhasoami. These are from emails that he once sent me, in response to my emails asking him if he had any knowledge of the history of DLM. Obviously I can vouch for the authenticity of the quotes. Whether he is correct or not, I don't know. However it's quite interesting to hear his opinions on this obscure subject.

I think that he probably is the person that is the origin of the idea that Shri Hans had some association with Sawan Singh. Sawan Singh was an extremely important Radhasoami Guru at the time and I suppose it would hardly be surprising that Hans ji was a follower once.
Here are the D. Lane quotes (you can also read them directly at JM's website http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/lane.htm )

'The Divine Light Mission was essentially a branch-off of the Shri Paramhans Advait Mat Group in Guna..... Sarupanand was Hansji's guru......Hansji was also apparently initiated by the late Sawan Singh of Radhasoami Satsang Beas.There is a book entitled Shri Paramhans Advait Mat published in India (Guna) and available at UCLA in Los Angeles, CA., which tells about their lineage....It is quite informative.....'

'Gyani Ji at Sawan Ashram in 1978 told me that Hansji had been initiated by Sawan Singh in the 1920s, but later left due to some personal problems (I think Gyanji said something about sex, but such gossip is notorious in India and not be relied upon unless there are many sources). The Advait Mat group is indeed different than Radhasoami, although my friend Aaron Talsky suggests that the founder of Advait Mat may well have been initiated by either Shiv Dayal Singh or one of his successors (Talsky did some research on this issue while in India, but I have not seen the verification so it remains speculative).
Sarupanand is mentioned by DLM and there was indeed a split off after his death and if I am not mistaken this group also mentions Hansji.'

'Advait Mat is different than Radhasoami in terms of lineage (except that the founder may have been at one-time connected to the early leaders of Radhasoami).
Hansji was clearly a follower of Sarupanand of Advait Mat. Hansji is also reported to have received initiation from Sawan Singh of Radhasoami Beas, as reported by Kirpal's personal secretary at Sawan Ashram, Gyanji (who I personally interviewed in July of 1978 on this issue). Hansji's doctrines are clearly reflective of Advait Mat (especially the pressing of the eyeballs, and the shortish hair--versus Beas's Sikh lineage gurus). I visted one of the Advait Mat centers in Delhi. A letter to their headquarters in Guna may reveal more.'

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 18:07:01 (GMT)
From: some1
Email: None
To: New Founder
Subject: Justin Gold - attempted rebellion against Maharaji
Message:
Justin Gold was a follower of Maharaji, then known as Guru Maharaj Ji. In '76, he attempted to lead a rebellion in the Washington D.C. community against the premie establishment, i.e. against Maharaji. The rebellion had actually gotten some momentum, but was crushed by the community coordinator. It was a big-time political struggle.

Previous to being in DC in '76, I believe Justin had his own small cult in a rural area. I heard later on that he set himself up as a guru, which was not surprising. In DC, some premies were semi-following him.

One story I heard from Justin was that one time, he wanted to get a job and needed a reference. So he give the phone number of a public phone booth. Then, either he or a friend of his answered at the phone booth later, pretending to be the reference. He said all this with great pride and with a silly grin. I have serious doubts about this story. Either way, it shows that he is a liar.

He also claimed to be a 'pretender', that he had had various professional jobs (like a doctor, etc.) that he conned his way into. I have doubts about that also, but who knows.

I never heard about a South American named Raya.

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 16:33:15 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: New Founder
Subject: Shri Hans Connection to Gurdjieff and Kirpal Singh
Message:
So your forum is for people who are in different related lineages but have left their gurus? Sounds cool. Are we invited?

You can find extensive discussions of 'Shri' Hans' lineage on JM's site which is linked up top, the DLM/EV Papers. I recall hearing this about Shri Hans, but the Gurdjieef thing sounds like hype to me. G was Russian and his knowledge of eastern 'wisdom' was oriented to what was regionally available to him in Russia, mostly Muslim or Sufi. It's been a long time since I read _Meetings with Remarkable Men_, so I don't recall what he claimed to be his early travel routes. Lots of Gurdjieef's stuff is completely fabricated, so I would be inclined to assume it's a lie. The book _Beezlebub's Tales to his Grandchildren_ is clearly a sarcastic fabrication with 'moral' content', for example. I don't think Gurdjieef cared if people believed him or not, at least toward the end of his life, and expect he wantonly made stuff up at some point.

All the so-called 'knowledge' techniques are common but with variation throughout India, China, and other geographically related countries. The nectar technique is used in China but usually not as strenuously (without contact with the uvula). It becomes more of 'mudra' than an actual technique. Light techniques are practiced without any hand positions throughout India (by Muktananda and lineage, for example). These are two examples, but there are many more.

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 17:08:05 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Shri Hans Connection to Gurdjieff and Kirpal Singh
Message:
Hi Run,

In 'Meetings with remarkable men' Gurdjief does indeed mention travelling in India and that he himself was at one time a Hindu Yogi.True or false? I have no idea.

Regards Hal

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 19:40:32 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: All
Subject: 'How do we know they are fake?' from ex-satsangi
Message:
Here's a post from the ex-satsangi web site that describes all too familiar Guru behaviour:

How do we know they are fake?

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:04:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: G
Subject: It's like asking how to identify a real unicorn
Message:
Here's the post you're referring to:

It seems to me there is at least one way we could know that a Guru was not a 'perfect living master', which would not require a person to have enlightenment.

If we discovered, for example, that a Guru had been flagrantly untruthful, dishonest, or acted contrary the moral principles of Sant Mat, we could be assured that he was 'all too human', and not a PLM.

Examples of this might be, if he were caught hiding money contributions, falsifying tax declarations, using his disciples or followers to bring personal items though Customs and having the disciples not declare the 'gift' on the Customs form, thereby avoiding customs duties and breaking the law (this would be abuse of the disciple's trust and devotion by the Master using his position as 'Guru' to get personal benefits under the guise of 'personal seva').

Additional evidence would be adminsitrative projects, such as organizing 'Seva' for the primary purpose of enhancing the assets of the Ashram or enhanacing property owned by other 'favored' Satsangis (rather than the Seva being created merely to develop devotion).

If I found out my guru had done any of these, or other similar things, I would have difficulty believing he was a Spiritual Master merged into the highest power of the Universe.

And by the way, I don't think a real PLM would play 'mind games' with disciples by doing illegal acts for the purpose of 'testing' their loyalty and devotion.

All this seems to be to me is a warning to people acting like so-called gurus to act well and remember their lines. Who said there's even such a thing as a 'Perfect Living Master'? Balderdash!

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 14:17:06 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji Delivers!
Message:

MALIBU, CA--With the world enjoying unprecedented prosperity, Maharaji announced Monday that the Bad Times are gone forever, and that the American people will live happily ever after.

'My loyal subjects,' said Maharaji, speaking from his great White House atop a shining hill, 'once upon a time, the Kingdom was beset with great dangers, and the Bear ran amok on Wall Street, and the men from the Red Land menaced us with their great rockets, and everyone was much afraid. But, henceforth, I decree that all People with Four Techniques will be happy and live in comfy houses filled with plenty of good things to eat, and all mommies and daddies will be kind and all children good, and the Wizard Greenspan shall set loose the great Bull, and we shall all live happily forever and ever.'

The Good People with Four Techniques were then overjoyed and, taking Maharaji on their shoulders, paraded him thrice about the shining white house on the hill and gave him three cheers, for they were very good People with Four Techniques indeed, and Maharaji was a very good Master indeed, and they were very, very happy.

So they went skipping hand in hand, all the People with Four Techniques together (who will never again quarrel, or say nasty things, or steal another boy's lunch basket nor pull another girl's pigtails, or walk through the Little Red Schoolhouse wearing trenchcoats and carrying bad, bad muskets to shoot other children), and they skipped into the Happy Valley of all tomorrows, where the Sun always shines, and there are always plenty of Nokia cell phones, and gas is never more than $1.09 a gallon; and they sang as they skipped, and they were not troubled by anything.

And it is very beautiful in the Happy Valley, according to the Happy Clappers, and there is a nice little white house for everyone, and a little green lawn in front of every little house, and every house has a magical picture box which tells the most lovely stories. And everyone will stay in their own little white neighborhoods, and mow their green lawns, and watch their magical picture boxes, and they will be very happy.

And everyone will have the enchanted carriage of their dreams, and an enchanted 401K plan for retirement, and there will be a great, delicious feast every day, and everyone will be pretty and happy. And above them, the great winged Dow-Bird will soar ever higher, and the power of his magical flight will make these things happen.

No one will ever get sick and die again, and Grandma will come back from Heaven and live with us, and all the daddies will hug the mommies again, and men will only want to marry women, and women will only want to marry men, and everyone will be the exact same perfect color, and no one will have off-brand clothes or speak in strange tongues. And everyone who once did any of those things will laugh, see how silly they were, and feel sorry that they made everyone so upset, and behave once and for all.

And we will all live happily ever after.

The end.

(apologies to the Onion)

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 16:11:05 (GMT)
From: JIM, I'M CRYING LAUGHING
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maharaji Delivers and YOU TOO: EXTRA FUNNY!! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 19:16:39 (GMT)
From: Gilead
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maharaji Delivers! What about homelessness, drugs,
Message:
Doesn't M care about the many suffering people in our society? I work with the homeless, and see their sufferings tied to injustice every day! I also see people trapped and enslaved by the crack cocaine and heroin industries, not to mention alcohol. Then, the many people who need health care, and may even be working full time, do not have the coverage for this human right (according to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights).
I also thought that when he was Guru Maharaj Ji, he didn't take any positions on the economic theories of capitalism vs. communism, as they were on the material plane, and selfish, lacking spiritual wisdom, etc.
It is sad that those premies are so gullible under his spell. The real hypocrisy of M stands out in that speech -- lack of compassion for suffering humanity -- he lives like a PIG in wealth, and has no feeling for Americans who are left out of the 'dream'. His father Shri Hans, used to at least use rhetoric about helping the needy and suffering, recognizing that such existed. Now, M is saying that everything is just (a neo-Nazi concept) in the world.
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 15:11:41 (GMT)
From: new founder
Email: newfounder@yahoo.com
To: Anyone
Subject: Shri Hans Connection to Gurdjieff and Kirpal Singh
Message:
I am a moderator of a forum for Ex-Satsangis
(Radha Soami line)
over at http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/exsatsangisupportgroup.

A question has been posed on one of our RS forums as follows:

........................................
I have heard that Shri Hans Ji was a student of Hazur Maharaj
Sawan Singh. I studied breifly in Santa Barbara with an
American spiritual teacher named Justin Gold, whose master was a
South American man named Raya. Justin told me that his master,
Shri Hans Ji, and George Gurdjieff sat with my
guru, Sant Kirpal Singh, at the feet of Sawan Singh.

Gurdjieff never mentions this, as far as I know, and I was
wondering what the story is, about Sawan Singh and Shri Hans Ji,
and why this is not mentioned (by Prem Pal initiates). I know
that the practices are different (from the teachings given by Kirpal Singh),
as we do not touch the eyes or invert the tongue, and I do not know
if (Prem Pal initiates).use the panch-shabd mantras as given out by Sawan Singh.'
........................................


Does anyone here have answers to any of these questions?

Many thanks for your trouble.

you may reply to me at

newfounder@yahoo.com

New Founder

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 14:33:55 (GMT)
From: Maharaji
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Fuck you Heller, you piece of shit (nt)
Message:
Fuck you Heller, you piece of shit (nt)
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 14:44:12 (GMT)
From: Jesus H. Christ
Email: None
To: Maharaji
Subject: Fuck you Heller, you piece of shit (nt)
Message:
Gerry, My Son:

If we have to read your cyber-stalking, at least tell us why you're so pissed at Jim.

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 15:22:25 (GMT)
From: Maharaji
Email: None
To: Jesus H. Christ
Subject: Sweet Jesus H, that last one WASN'T Gerry, it was
Message:
GOD knows who!

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 14:54:18 (GMT)
From: Turtle Head peeping
Email: A Very Small Hole!
To: Jesus H. Christ
Subject: Fuck you Heller, you piece of shit (nt)
Message:
Me and Mr Hanky want to know 'Whats wrong with being a piece of Shit ????'
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:59:26 (GMT)
From: M. Ghandi
Email: None
To: the world
Subject: The truth about that robot piece of shit!!
Message:
He's a fucking FREE MASON!!!!!!
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 15:32:04 (GMT)
From: Da Divine Dumpa
Email: None
To: Turtle Head peeping
Subject: Who says I don't know shit?
Message:
Shit is a powerful word. Just think of all the concepts and
ideas you can communicate with it. Shit may just be the most
powerful word in the English language.

Consider: You can be shit faced, be shit out of luck, or have
shit for brains. With a little effort you can get your shit
together, find a place for your shit or decide to shit or get off
the pot. You can smoke shit, buy shit, sell shit, lose shit, find
shit, forget shit, and tell others to eat shit and die.

You can shit or go blind, have a shit fit or just shit your life
away. People can be shit headed, shit brained, shit blinded,
and shit over. Some people know their shit while others can't
tell the difference between shit and shineola.

There are lucky shits, dumb shits, crazy shits, and sweet
shits. There is bull shit, dog shit, cat shit, bird shit, whale
shit, rat shit, and horse shit. There is tough shit, hard shit,
soft shit, slimy shit, rough shit, and limp shit. You can shit a
blue streak, shit bricks, shit pink Twinkie's, shit marbles, or
shit your guts out.

You can throw shit, sling shit, catch shit, or duck when the shit
hits the fan. You can take a shit, give a shit, keep shit or
serve shit on a shingle. You can find yourself in deep shit, or
be happier than a pig in shit.

Some days are colder than shit, some days are hotter than
shit, and some days are just plane shitty. There is funny shit
and sad shit, bad shit and good shit. Some shit doesn't stink
while other things really smell like shit.

Some music sounds like shit, things can look like shit, and
there are times when you feel like shit. You can be faster
than shit or you can be slower than shit. Sometimes you'll
find shit on a stick, sometimes you'll find shit everywhere,
and then there are times when you can't find shit at all. You
can have too much shit, not enough shit, the right shit, the
wrong shit or a lot of weird shit.

You can carry shit in a bucket, put shit in a barrel, have a pile
of shit, have a mountain of shit, have a river of shit, or find
yourself up shit creek without a paddle. You can slice shit,
spread shit, dunk shit or jump shit, and some people just
can't cut the shit.

There is fun shit and dull shit, silly shit and serious shit.
Sometimes you really need this shit and sometimes you
don't want any shit at all. You can stir shit, kick shit or stick
your ass out the window and shit on the world. Sometimes
everything you touch turns to shit and other times you swim
in a lake of shit and come out smelling like a rose.

Shit! When you stop to consider all the facts, it's the basic
building block of creation. This means the universe did not
begin with a BIG BANG but rather with a BIG DUMP. Keep that
in mind the next time you flush the toilet. And remember,
once you know your shit, you don't need to know anything
else!

WHO NEEDS KNOWLEDGE?!!

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 19:33:47 (GMT)
From: Gilead
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maharaji Delivers
Message:
Jim, How did you get that transcript? Is it on some video, or did you read it in the newspaper? where can I get a copy?
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:21:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gilead
Subject: It's a rip-off from 'The Onion'
Message:
Check it out:

www.theonion.com

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:37:12 (GMT)
From: His Holiness Gilead Ji
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It's a rip-off from 'The Onion'
Message:
Thanks Comrade
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 12:34:24 (GMT)
From: James Flynn
Email: not given
To: Everyone
Subject: ELK Poetry
Message:
Why do these premies write such shitty poetry and what are they hoping to prove by posting it here? I think the brainwashing has arrested their cognitive development. Don't quit your day job premie jis.
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 13:09:54 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: James Flynn
Subject: ELK Poetry
Message:
Most of the poetry is posted by Jim Heller, who does it because he thinks it's funny to poke fun at. I'm not sure if 'JGG' is an ELK poet or not (because I didn't read the whole thing), but if he is he's a new kind of critter on F5.
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 10:13:05 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: By His Grace-a prayer
Message:
Last night there was a lottery worth $230 million. I went to the store and bought one ticket. After all, if I was meant to win, wouldn't one ticket be sufficient. I came home and prayed to my Lord. I even promised HIM a sizable piece of the action. He is the superior power in person, you know!

I will now go to the lottery website and will report the result...I just know my Maharaji will finally come through for me....'not a leaf moves' and all that shit!!!

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 10:17:21 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: Angry
Subject: By His Grace-a prayer?The Result
Message:
Maharaji is a

SKUNK

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 11:28:53 (GMT)
From: HAHAHAHAHA...
Email: None
To: Angry
Subject: FUNNY
Message:
His grease wasn't big enough... skunk ain't the word: He did the same to me!!!
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 09:52:36 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Gerry - Internet libel
Message:
Hi Gerry

I nearly missed it, but in response to your post last week concerning the Supreme Court ruling on internet libel….

The crux of the ruling seems to have been that an ISP cannot be liable for the publication of libelous material by a third party. The main difference to me is that the Forum is not an ISP in the same sense as Prodigy. Prodigy is in business to provide internet access and email service to the public, whereas the Forum and Ex-Premie site are not. They are providing a venue with the specific and self advertised aim of publishing anti Maharaji material which they acknowledge can be libelous and defamatory but don’t care if they are.

With regard to Prodigy, the Supreme Court ruled that…

”The public would not be well served by compelling (an ISP) to examine and screen millions of e-mail communications, on pain of liability for defamation

Clearly, the Forum does not have “millions of e-mail communications” to screen and examine, and, as it is purposely designed as a mouth piece for libel and defamation directed towards Maharaji and people positive towards him, it cannot hide behind the legal defence used by Prodigy.

It (the Supreme Court) backed up the New York Appeals court earlier judgement which had said
.
'We are unwilling to deny Prodigy the common-law qualified privilege accorded to telephone and telegraph companies.'

Obviously, this comment recognised the public service provision of the business and the wide and diverse nature of the huge volumes of emails that would be physically impossible to monitor. The Forum, of course, does not have the huge volumes of email (maybe 20 to 30 contributors at the most) and is certainly does not have a diversity of subject matter, so it would be easily able to monitor edit and delete libelous material. Indeed it already does this for material that flout it’s own arbitrary rules.

Curiously enough, there is very little mention in the court ruling of “freedom of speech “ or “public interest” issues.

Enough though about US rulings, The UK situation is very different, you may be interested to read the following link, Demon drops it appeal (BBC), and also a recent article in the Washington Post dealing with the issue of the international vs US positions on the publication of libelous and defamatory material on the Internet, “Write Here. Libel There. So Beware”.

So, Gerry, maybe it’s not yet an “open season on Goober”, and, Dave (if you’re reading this) maybe you should move your sites off shore

Mel

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 20:24:25 (GMT)
From: hal
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel you're such a pratt !!
Message:
Who the hell do you think you are? Defender of the faith? Do you think you were a Knights Templar in your last lifetime or something?

You seem to be afraid of facing the truth about your fatguru. Living in denial it's called.I think you know that there is much truth in the allegations against him but you fear that your fragile little belief system is the foundation of your life. You won't crumble without it you know. All of us here have been where you are and we all feel relieved to be free from it.

Give yourself a break and grow up. I guess that your middle aged and afraid to have your juvenile fantasy bubble burst. It's fun to change you know man!

Don't get so serious about this , he's laughing all the way to the bank. Don't feel sorry for him Mel. Feel sorry for the dreamers who thought he could really make a difference to this world . Us and you.

Hal the awakened one.

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 16:21:54 (GMT)
From: Mel: Screw yourself!!
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: You deserve the best!!
Message:
And that is to be Lard's devotee!! Yack...Cult member!! You down...He up...hahahahaha
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 11:55:05 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Questions for Mel:
Message:
Mel,

Do you consider any of the following statements to be libellous?

(1) Maharaji is a mere mortal.

(2) Maharaji made frequent claims to be God in human form - the 'superior power in person' etc.

(3) Maharaji has an opulent lifestyle and seemingly insatiable love for material wealth as evinced by his luxury yacht, fleet of cars and personal jet.

(4) Maharaji informed ashram premies that they were joining the ashram 'for life'.

(5) Maharaji closed those ashrams without warning.

(6) A man very well placed to know - Bob Mishler - has testified to Maharaji having had a serious drink problem. Numerous premies and ex-premies have witnessed Maharaji in a state of intoxication.

(7) Maharaji has a mistress named Monica.

(8) Maharaji has tried to hide his past and has treated disillusioned premies with contempt.

(9) Maharaji's movement is a cult.

(10) Maharaji has no special 'powers' - though he often made reference to them in the past.

(11) Mahatama Fakiranand broke a man's skull with a hammer. Evidence suggests Maharaji may have helped him flee the USA to avoid his being arrested.

(12) Mahatama Jagdeo is a paedophile. Evidence suggests that either Maharaji himself, or at least high-placed officials in his movement, were informed but did nothing.

(13) Maharaji is a fraud.

(14) Elan Vital misrepresent the level of expected personal and financial commitment when recruiting new aspirants. (See Gilead's post.)

(15) Such a practise is, at best, immoral and dishonest.

(16) Maharaji used blatant scaremongering tactics ('rotten vegetables' / 'smash into a million pieces') to ensure premie loyalty.

Final thought: your repeated, non-specific accusations of 'lies' on the forum or your statement that the forum is purposely designed as a mouth piece for libel and defamation directed towards Maharaji and people positive towards him is it itself a libellous statement, since those things are not the purposes of this forum, or those who administer it, as I suspect you well know.

I would appreciate an answer to the first question.


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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 13:04:01 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Answer to Question 1
Message:
Nigel

Of course Maharaji is a mortal! He'll die like you me and everyone else!

Mel

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 13:17:27 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Partial answer...
Message:
The question was: do you consider any of the statements libellous?

(I may have misled you by referring to 'question 1' when there was only one question.)

I would still appreciate an answer.

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 02:20:36 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Full answer...
Message:
Nigel

Your answers follow. 'No' means not libelous, 'Yes' means possibly libelous, but some of your points seem vague or ambiguous and I have made comments where I felt necessary. Of course, these answers are my personal opinion only...

(1) Maharaji is a mere mortal.

No

(2) Maharaji made frequent claims to be God in human form - the 'superior power in person' etc.

No, although I am not aware of direct claims (eg 'I am God') you refer to, but some earlier statements emanting from DLM undeniably allude to his personal divinity. Certainly over recent years he denies any divinity.

(3) Maharaji has an opulent lifestyle and seemingly insatiable love for material wealth as evinced by his luxury yacht, fleet of cars and personal jet.

No on 'opulent life style', but 'insatiable love for material wealth'?... a very subjective comment based on perception rather than fact.

(4) Maharaji informed ashram premies that they were joining the ashram 'for life'.

No

(5) Maharaji closed those ashrams without warning.

Unsure, but probably no. I wasn't involved in the Ashram scene at that time.

(6) A man very well placed to know - Bob Mishler - has testified to Maharaji having had a serious drink problem. Numerous premies and ex-premies have witnessed Maharaji in a state of intoxication.

Yes, at what court of law did Bob 'testify' as I recollect it was through the media. His comments alone could be regarded as libelous.

(7) Maharaji has a mistress named Monica.

Yes

(8) Maharaji has tried to hide his past and has treated disillusioned premies with contempt.

I disagree that Maharaji has 'tried to hide is past' but don't beleive that this statement is necessarily libelous.

(9) Maharaji's movement is a cult.

No, especially if you define cult to mean '....intense interest in and devotion to a person, idea or actvity...' (Collins English Dictionary)

(10) Maharaji has no special 'powers' - though he often made reference to them in the past.

No, although I am not aware of what 'special powers' you claim he has 'often made reference to'. You might be getting confused with Sai Baba here!

(11) Mahatama Fakiranand broke a man's skull with a hammer. Evidence suggests Maharaji may have helped him flee the USA to avoid his being arrested.

Yes! What evidence? This matter has been discussed at length here
especially the issue of culpability due to his age at the time and the undeniable likelihood that his mentors probably had more influence and decision making on the issue than he did.

(12) Mahatama Jagdeo is a paedophile. Evidence suggests that either Maharaji himself, or at least high-placed officials in his movement, were informed but did nothing.

Yes. There is no evidence that Maharaji knew of or was informed of this matter. I notice your qualification regarding 'high placed officials'

(13) Maharaji is a fraud.

Maybe, but this point is too vague to comment on, depends what fraudulent activity you wish to accuse him of. If you mean that he cannot show people a way to experience peace and contentment inside themselves as he purports to, then I think you are on shaky ground because many people would disagree, although I wouldn't suggest that your view on the matter is serious enough to be labelled 'libelous.'

(14) Elan Vital misrepresent the level of expected personal and financial commitment when recruiting new aspirants. (See Gilead's post.)

I really can't comment on this, not having been associated with the 'aspirant' recruitment, but during my experience with the Elan Vital organisation over the years I have not been pressured to make any financial 'commitments'. Obviously, any organisation needs to obtain funds to further it's aims and it is not unreasonable for these organisations to request financial support from it's members or interested parties, and certainly Elan Vital is no different in this. Indeed Maharaji has made it abubndantly clear that this support is because people want to not because they 'should'. The issue of 'misrepresenation' may be libelous.

(15) Such a practise is, at best, immoral and dishonest.

I agree if this is what is actually happening.

(16) Maharaji used blatant scaremongering tactics ('rotten vegetables' / 'smash into a million pieces') to ensure premie loyalty.

It's undeniable that Maharaji said these things many years ago (over 25 years, I think) but whether he used these phrases 'to ensure premie loyalty' or not is really debatable. In my view what he was trying to convey was the importance of maintaining a practise of 'Knowledge' rather than deliberatly frightening his followers to comply with his every whim as you would seem to suggest. He certainly does'nt use such colourful expressions these days and although he emphasises the importance of practice he makes it plain that there is no compulsion to do so.

Nigel, the way you have presented your points is with the obvious intention to denigrate Maharaji and his aim as well as the contempt in which you hold him. I think that it is really important to consider what his message basically is - the discovery and experience of fulfillment and contentment via the simple techniques that he teaches. It's very easy to get caught up in the personality and 'behaviour' issues but however disagreeable you and others find his personality and behaviour, the fact still remains that he the techniques he teaches work. They are not dependant on the perceived quirks or foibles of personality.

Mel

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 16:33:26 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Full answer.??? Not so fast!!
Message:
You said:

Nigel, the way you have presented your points is with the obvious intention to denigrate Maharaji and his aim as well as the contempt in which you hold him. I think that it is really important to consider what his message basically is - the discovery and experience of fulfillment and contentment via the simple techniques that he teaches. It's very easy to get caught up in the personality and 'behaviour' issues but however disagreeable you and others find his personality and behaviour, the fact still remains that he the techniques he teaches work. They are not dependant on the perceived quirks or foibles of personality.

Please read that! What a piece of garbage!! K works well: It made of you a devotee...He has you by your balls... Freedom? Think again... Just help HIM be richer is the name of his game... You are not there to see it! You are gone... Don't you want to find yourself?? I HAVE NEWS FOR YOU: YOU HAVEN'T yet!! REAL freedom is much funnier than yours....SAD!!!!

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 17:59:50 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: SB
Subject: I have given up on Mel that many times...
Message:
Hi SB!

Love the way Mel disses anything that isn't actually his own 'experience' as 'quirks and foibles of personality'. In other words, provided Mel feels he is getting something beneficial from 'Knowledge' then it stands to reason that (a) M's critics are unjustly defaming him regardless of what they say, and (b) Maharaji has carte blanche to do what the fuck he likes.

M's in a win-win situation for as long as he has devotees like that (which, unfortunately, I suspect he always will have.)

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 11:02:25 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Sosumi
Message:
Nigel, the way you have presented your points is with the obvious intention to denigrate Maharaji and his aim as well as the contempt in which you hold him. I think that it is really important to consider what his message basically is - the discovery and experience of fulfillment and contentment via the simple techniques that he teaches.
>
My (not-so-obvious?) intention is merely to clarify your definition of 'libellous'. You misrepresent my intention the same way you misrepresent the forum's intentions. Contributions here are not screened (apart from basic rules re. threats etc.) Premies are as free to post their devotional gush as exes are to be 'defamatory' - as you put it. Basically, people tell it as they see it, and to use Susan's phrase 'telling the trutb is never libel'.

I call Maharaji a money-grabbing fraud in exactly the same way I call Uri Geller a money-grabbing fraud or call Jagdeo a paedophile or Fakirandand an unpunished criminal. For me, these are facts and I don't care who sues. It is merely a question of the amount of evidence you need to persuade you of such. (BTW: As a premie, NO amount of evidence would have persuaded me M could behave in a less than honourable or decent manner.)

Don't you believe Susan or Abi's stories or any of the details reported here about who said what to who and when? There IS testimony of nameable people to the effect that M was informed and did nothing. I for one am persuaded - or sufficiently persuaded to repeat what I have heard with confidence as being serious matters that need investigating.

(Do you think they need investigating? How much would you really like to find out, at risk of having to see your man and his mission in a new, not-so-divine light?)

And let's face it, M is never going to make public what he knows unless he is forced to do so in a court of law.

One more point: M's claims to divinity are not just from 25 years ago. (See my post below entitled 't's excellent question'. The guru's omnipotence flows through it like a stream of hot dysentery).

As to your absurd 'I think that it is really important to consider what his message basically is - the discovery and experience of fulfillment and contentment via the simple techniques that he teaches. ...

That might work on brand new aspirants, Mel, but if you hadn't noticed, the folks round here no longer get off on introductory satsang (hmm, is there another kind?). For Christ's sake, haven't you noticed yet that Maharaji doesn't actually 'teach' anything? The techniques are public domain and the rest is pure personality cult. Anyway, I wish you well with your continued toe-kissing, metaphorical or otherwise...

The sun is out and I'm off for a swim. Phone your lawyers if you think you have a case, otherwise quit bleating.

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 20:33:56 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Nigel your going for a swim??
Message:
Hey Nigel,

What's going on in this world man? You live in Liverpool right? The sun is out and you're going for a swim?! I'm down here in Portugal and it's cool and pissing down with rain, has been for weeks!

Time to move back to the U.K. with all this global warming. Keep on spraying those CFC's folks!

Cheers Hal

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 02:50:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Then sue me, you fucking twerp!
Message:
What a creep you are! Hidden behind your cowardly mask trying to warn us about some big stupid libel suit you know would never happen for all the obvious reasons.

Listen, we can say whatever we want about Maharji with full impunity because, as we've all realized even you, I'm sure, he can't afford to undergo the discovery process. My deposition would be very simple, Mel. 'Mr. Heller, did you say this on such and such a date?' Answer: yes. 'Did you say that Maharaji likes to fuck pigs because they remind him of his mother?' 'Yes, I guess I did.' Okay, that's my depo.

What about his?

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 10:05:07 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Sorry - Internet libel links again
Message:
Demon drops it appeal (BBC), and Write Here. Libel There. So Beware(Washington Post)
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 17:31:27 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Sorry - Internet libel links again
Message:
Mel,
I'd love that lowlife (the man formerly known as Prem Pal Singh Rawat) to take me on, at least under English Law. I'll repost my 'Unholy Trinity' under its finished title J'ACCUSE, to encourage exactly that.

The trouble Demon got in was caused by a forgery - a posting that claimed to be from someone, when it was not from that person at all. What was posted was pretty gross. So the guy complained to Demon 'Hey, guys, that gross post purports to be from me and it ain't. Please take it down.' Demon refused, until they saw reason.

What has that got to do with telling the truth? The man formerly known as Prem Pal Rawat and now active under the moniker Maharaji is a fake, a fraud and a liar. His life has been a lie. Makes your life into a bit of a lie as well, wouldn't you say? Mel?
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 17:03:31 (GMT)
From: Well, Melboring, we can
Email: from gerry
To: Melboring
Subject: only hope the greaseball fraud pissant goober sues
Message:
Jeez are you gonna sue for me calling you 'melboring?'
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 17:46:46 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Well, Melboring, we can
Subject: So?
Message:
A lawsuit would certainly require a finding of fact as to whether any of the statements to which Nigel refers are, in fact, true or false. Telling the truth about someone is certainly not libellous to matter how objectionable the bahavior referenced. So, discovery would be in interesting process, wouldn't it?
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 02:46:29 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I'm bored ..... how can I become shizophrenic?
Message:
From ELK:

Janice Wilson:

Victory

From Baldwinsville, New York

Every day that my heart wins.
Every hour that my heart wins.
Every moment that my heart wins.
That spells victory for me!
Yes, yes ,yes!
Thank you

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 05:13:00 (GMT)
From: Regis Philbin
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'm bored ..... Hey Jim, want a date with Janice?
Message:
Jim-a little info for you on your fantasy girlfriend, Janice from Baldwinsville,NY.
This is from someone who knows her in the Syracuse area of NY.
She was married to a guy known as Bob the Blob,a nice techie who she had a few kids with.The Blob left her because she was fooling around with another premie from the area who was a dog food magnate. The dog food magnate was rich, and became the community contact for Syracuse, until he found the ex-site, and became an ex-premie, as well a white supremicist.
This is all true, and just happened in the last few months.
So...good work forum, another one down, a few thousand to go..
And Jim, I think Janice is available now-she left the dog food magnate...
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 06:01:53 (GMT)
From: Madam Kaliedescopia
Email: None
To: Thread
Subject: New age jargon= she has closed down
Message:
the left and right side of her heart chakra. Any two bit quack psycic can tell that in a glance.

Now then..the heart has four chambers. These correspond to male and female energys that interact in a normal person. Most people have defective interaction between the chambers or male and female sides of themselves- which is why most people are weird.
.
But the premeis have closed down the emotional exchange- or give and take between the male and female aspects of their feeling life. What devotion to the guru does is focus their emotional energy in the middle. So that there is no relationship to any other feeling that would involve the four chambers of the heart.

So that makes their energy blow through to their sexual region and/or their gall bladder/liver- resulting in low tolerance of others and or a sex drive that is supressed except when funnelled through the guru related activities. Of course the guru wants them to try dilligently to channel all of thier potential of feeling to him him him- but his deos not work like he wants it to.

Since the mental activity charka is also discouraged from developement- premies also seem rather dim witted- and are dependant on parotting the premie dogma. There is a genetically modified virus that has been also developed for premies- which is illustrated by none other than our Dear Rob in his former incarnation on this forum. IE 'I dont agree with a lot of things Malarhe does bla bla bla...'
Of course there are many mutations of this virus developing- in an effort to portray a premie as normal as possible. However the virus is quickly detected. As quick as one can detect a Mormon at the front door.

Send for our virus detection kit right away . All orders in the next 20 minutes earn a red candle lit on your behalf.

Madame K and Co

but having said that, if it is the janice wilson I know I would not joke about her mental condition- she does have a condition.

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 02:59:35 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Isn't Multiple Personality Disorder she has?
Message:
She is rooting for the victory of one of her vital organs. I think her heart is at war with her pancreas, and she's rooting for her heart. But who wouldn't. It's the only logical side to be on. I think you can still have 'that breath' even with a defeated pancreas.
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 03:12:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Imagine where she thinks this is all heading
Message:
In the old days it was God (or Knowledge) Realization. But now? Where does Janice think she's going? Just how triumphant can a heart be anyway? Does she think that the Hamster's got a big fat heart? Sure she does. How about Marolyn? Big heart? Bigger than, say, Ivette who's always trying to muscle in on Janice's internet Gopi turf? How much does the heart have to win before the mind (or whatever else there is. Pancreas? Sure, why not?) just gives up?

And what's that like? State of Grace? One big heart riding roughshod over all these other vassal body parts.

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 03:14:11 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Its simple
Message:
Jim, you just need to listen more.
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 02:43:57 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: It just doesn't get any better than this, does it?
Message:
From ELK:

Ivete Belfort Mattos:

Travelling to listen

From Sao Paolo, Brazil

I arrived in New York after 10 hours flying without sleeping. I had a shower, practiced and a voice inside me was telling me: 'You are going to sleep during the satellite event. You are tired etc.' I went to the event hall one hour before it started. I intended to buy some new videos.

I was requesting to people before the event: 'Please I am tired, could you please assist me with packaging these videos'. And they were really kind and they gently assisted me.

As I started to watch the telecast that voice inside me was saying: 'You are going to sleep during the satellite event. You are tired, etc.'

What a surprise! The voice was wrong! I did not sleep. I really enjoyed it and was really happy to read the sign-off frame: 'The next event will happen in two weeks'.

The issue now is that in two weeks I will have to travel happily somewhere where the satellite transmission will happen.

How glad I am! How happy I am! How important is to take advantage on this great opportunity to listen more!

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 05:24:41 (GMT)
From: Regis Philbin's therapist
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It just doesn't get any better than this, does it?
Message:
Jim-OK Jim, it's about time we had a long talk, OK?
Now I know for a fact that you are just plain jealous of all this fine poetry over on ELK.That's the only reason an otherwise rational person would get so worked up over fine art such as that.So let's just get real and admit it-you're jealous and we all know it.
The cure?
Simple.
You need to write your own poetry and we'll critique it here first, and then you can send it over there on ELK.
Also,your cynical attitude goes back to a deep seated abandonment complex that began when the holy mother of creation, Mata Ji, passed from our presence a few years back.
You are in deep denial over this, and your grief is substantial.
The cure?
Simple.
Repeat a few bolie shri's,specifically the ones with mata ki jai! at the end.
I know it sounds crazy, but I had a condition similar to yours and it was dramatically improved with just a few bolie shris..
Try it and see for yourself.

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 21:54:51 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: all
Subject: sleep...sleeep...sleep
Message:
They assisted me in wrapping my videos, they were so kind while gouging me of my money, I was so blasted tired I couldn't see straight! Then that voice inside me said 'I have been trying to tell you for weeks you numb-nuts, get some rest!!'

I remember those days of pushing my body at those stupid programs, eating all that high fat health food and sitting in those uncomfortable chairs, and being so freaking tired from travelling 1000 miles in a broken down car with some crazy premie (me--ha ha) driving on 'grace' when they should be sleeping.. And of course everyone's 'Mind' was saying 'sleep sleep,' or 'run run run like the wind!!'

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 03:09:46 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ivete is just like me
Message:
Yes, to fly from Brazil to New York for 10 hours for a 60 minute satellite telecast is just the most blissful thing. And then to stay awake on top of that is just such grace. And she didn't even lose her keys.....or her marbles.

I had a similar experience. Now that I am living in my car because of the money I donated for the luxury spa/recording studio for Maharaji at Amaroo, I sometimes have trouble finding an appropriate place to go to the bathroom. So, when I arrived for the satellite after driving for 15 hours and sleeping in the trunk, I really had to pee. But I made it just in time for the event and I couldn't miss even one second of it to find the ladies room. My mind kept saying to me: 'you are going to pee your pants, you are going to pee your pants', but by the divine grace, I crossed my legs and and squeezed real hard, and it didn't happen. I did not disrupt the glorious speaking of our master by releasing my fluid. And there was a large potted plant in the lobby of the hall that, by his grace, I squated in on as I ran out of the hall. It was all grace that it was possible.

It reminded me that we are nothing more than urine-soaked dirt without Maharaji's grace. I am blissed out, once again.

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 22:03:28 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: You and Werner Erhard (that EST guy)
Message:
Hey Pauline, here's a little tip for ya, if you feel like some other reflex is gonna happen, it's not your mind ok, go to the bloody bathroom!....seriously, you are a scream! I think I know who you are...but I won't reveal your identity!

Remember the EST training, that other embarrassing hyped up trip that otherwise intelligent people threw their money away on? My dad was into it and paid for me to take it, they wouldn't let a person pee! They said it was avoidant behavior. Jesus H Christ, I wouldn't take that kind of shit now that I have had a kid and have a bladder the size of an ant!

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 02:14:34 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Maybe We Met Doing Service, but....
Message:
I don't think I know you. But it is ture, those EST people are just in a big cult. And they make you PAY for the experience. Maharaji has said many times that this Knowledge, which is the only way in the entire universe to experience that love, that truth, that peace, that fulfillment. It doesn't cost, it's a GIFT. And Maharaji does not prohibit people from using the loo. I DARE you miserable ex-premies to find even ONE quote in which Maharaji said it wasn't okay to go to the bathroom. In fact, Maharaji is VERY INTO bathrooms. In his residence in Malibu, there are at least 29 bathrooms. Every room has one, even all 9 garages. Just look at the plans if you don't believe me.

Yes, EST is really weird and it flashed me one day, after we had just sung Arti, I pranamed and drank charnamarit, and it flashed on me again, as I blissed out and screamed, and nearly wet my pants, as Maharaji danced in front of thousands of people, that EST is a big cult and I'm so glad Maharaji and Knowledge are REAL and NOT a cult. Sorry you had to have that full of mind experience in EST training.

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 03:24:33 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: Maybe We Met Doing Service, but....
Message:
Dear PP (see even your name is referential!)

I am glad you had a hot flash during arti! I remember one time I was singing my little heart out during arti, harmonizing and all, I was just overtaken with the spirit of the Lord, and this one 'sister' told me, 'er, Helen, it's not an opera, okay?' in a tone that said 'just sing the fucking song quietly like the rest of us.' I had many embarrassing experiences like this. They are funny now when I think of them, well some aren't so funny.

Good to hear that M is so into bathrooms. He pisses in that golden potty, and so we all should give into our peeing urges, praise be to Maharaji, with every pee I will think of him!

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 03:58:19 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: my pot to pee in
Message:
this was so funny.........i immediately wanted to send you a picture i took of myself and my special toilet (a.k.a a bucket) in my living quarters in 1993 (for 6 mos i lived in a large closet in an upstairs abandonned bowling alley, w/o running water or heat)..........!holy shit!
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 03:45:39 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: Ivete is just like me
Message:
TRIPLE ROFL!

Who are you?

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 01:39:00 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hey, look what I've just found !!
Message:
Ex-premie.org is plagiarizing my website !!!!!!!

The DLM - EV Papers is back !!!!!!

I won't ask for copyrights, and I won't sue them ..... not like some of my ex-friends just tried ... they even had to hire a lawyers' firm because they didn't have the guts to do that in their own names !!!!!!!!

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 13:33:47 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: To EV-ex!
Message:
Now tell me what the French premies are proud of???

They've spent hours and hours in meetings and talking, and 1 or 2 $ 1.000 to hire the lawyer ..... and guess what's the result?

These pages they hate will have a better row in the search engines .... and easier to access as they're now part of the Ex-Premie.Org !!

I assume they're even more mad at me ..... let's see what will be their next stupid move!!! And don't hesitate to email me the latest rumors you'll hear!!!

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 17:15:43 (GMT)
From: EV-ex
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: You da man!
Message:
Jean-Michel,

I am sure that you have made Elan Vital's weekend, by enabling your site to magically reappear on the Internet.

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 21:51:19 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: EV-ex
Subject: O yeah !!!!!!
Message:
and a new chapter for the saga.

No doubt they're emailing and faxing each other like crazy...... poor guys!!!!!

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 20:59:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: EV-ex
Subject: Now can honestly be advertised as ..............
Message:

THE TRUTH THEY TRIED TO SUPPRESS!

Really, that history should be explained in some sort of pre-amble, don't you think? It's golden in this context where information is everything.

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 02:12:22 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hey, look what I've just found !!
Message:
What do you mean??
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 01:42:49 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hey, look what I've just found !!
Message:
Hi JM! :)
Sorry but I am not sure if you are playing or not. I just thought you were going to say you found my teeth so I had to look! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 21:53:59 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Does this mean you're again looking for them?
Message:
Don't you have some good glue over there?
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 22:10:11 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Does this mean you're again looking for them?
Message:
Dear JM,
You gave me a start! I thought, where are they!, felt the sports bra, no, then I remembered in my change purse! Where are they supposed to go I wonder! Hahaha!
Jade says I should have a hole drilled in them and a chain put through! :) I think she is right. I don't want to glue them, how could I put them in and out if I did that! Silly man. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 22:18:23 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Does this mean you're again looking for them?
Message:
OH GOD ROBYN that was a scream what Jade said about having a hole put in your teeth and wearing them on a chain. GOd almighty, I should do that for my two pairs of glasses and my keys. They have so much patience with their senile old mothers.

When she was younger Colleen used to take my face in her hands and say 'mommy I'm hungry' when I would be yakking with my friends. God isn't that pathetic? What kind of mother am I?

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 02:11:43 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Don't I have them??? NT lol
Message:
lol
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 22:06:33 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: speaking of lost things.....
Message:
SB, you left your black jacket and some unmentionables here. Oh no I shouldn't say that, Gerry will get all frisky again! Next thing you know he'll be offering me big money for them! You want me to mail them to you? just send me an email with your address....
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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 23:48:00 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: speaking of lost things.....OT
Message:
Hi Helen...

I heard about your sister in law... :( My respects...

I email you my address, but I'm curious: 'and some unmentionables '???? hahaha....what did I do now!!

Love,
S

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 00:28:07 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: speaking of lost things.....OT
Message:
Hi SB -
'Unmentionables' = underwear!!

Love,
Katie

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Date: Sat, May 06, 2000 at 01:55:43 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: I haven't opened my hat's box yet!!!
Message:
ROFDL .......

(written in code, I don't want them to sue me again!!!!)

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