Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, May 13, 2000 at 16:56:52 (GMT)
From: Apr 30, 2000 To: May 12, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


James Flynn -:- The Mirror Concept -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 11:29:12 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- The Mirror Concept/The Vessel of Grace concept -:- Wed, May 10, 2000 at 02:56:20 (GMT)
__ __ James Flynn -:- The Mirror Concept/The Vessel of Grace concept -:- Wed, May 10, 2000 at 10:13:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- The Mirror Concept/The Vessel of Grace concept -:- Wed, May 10, 2000 at 20:34:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- The Mirror Concept/The Vessel of Grace concept -:- Wed, May 10, 2000 at 20:35:40 (GMT)
__ Happy Clapper -:- Happy Clappers need Private Jets Too! -:- Tues, May 09, 2000 at 03:21:39 (GMT)

Nigel -:- A thought experiment for premies... -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 10:18:34 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- A thought experiment for premies... -:- Tues, May 09, 2000 at 10:21:16 (GMT)
__ Elaine B. -:- A thought experiment for premies... -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 17:54:48 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- I think you're missing the point... -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 19:05:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- I think you're missing the point... -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 19:41:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- Nigel: right on the nail -:- Tues, May 09, 2000 at 13:28:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- So you're an independent thinker?! -:- Tues, May 09, 2000 at 08:20:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- So you're an independent thinker?! -:- Tues, May 09, 2000 at 16:14:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- I'm curious Elaine . . . -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 04:38:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine B. -:- Shri Hans story. -:- Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 14:29:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Calm Elaine -:- Tues, May 09, 2000 at 23:33:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Hi Hal -:- Wed, May 10, 2000 at 00:23:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Anticipated response -follow-up -:- Tues, May 09, 2000 at 17:05:46 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Just an excellent idea, Nige (and how 'bout this?) -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 16:06:09 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Like it! -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 19:36:59 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- A serious afterthought... -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 11:06:10 (GMT)
__ __ trixie -:- again missing the point... -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 19:35:13 (GMT)
__ __ Angry -:- A serious afterthought... -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 13:00:38 (GMT)

Gilead -:- Did you ever see 'Under Siege'? -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 02:15:03 (GMT)
__ P.T. HEAD -:- Yes Virginia, it could be WORSE than Maharagi -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 04:36:15 (GMT)
__ __ Turtle Head Peeping! -:- Yes Virginia, it could be WORSE than Maharagi -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 11:03:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ raina -:- Yes Virginia, it could be WORSE than Maharagi -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 16:56:29 (GMT)
__ no -:- Did you ever see 'Under Siege'? -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 03:26:27 (GMT)
__ __ yes -:- Did you ever see 'Under Siege'? -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 03:32:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ The expert witness -:- Did you ever see 'Under Siege'? -:- Tues, May 09, 2000 at 01:36:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Maybe -:- Did you ever see 'Under Siege'? -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 03:34:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Perhaps -:- Unibomber typeing from prison? -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 04:10:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Gilead -:- Rules of Engagement -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 04:22:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Rules of Engagement -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 14:27:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gilead -:- Rules of Engagement -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 20:01:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Rules of Engagement -:- Tues, May 09, 2000 at 10:09:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Rules of Engagement -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 04:48:02 (GMT)

virginia -:- two tickets to paradise... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 20:00:39 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Sheesh, you're a nasty one! (nt) -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 02:46:19 (GMT)
__ __ Baby Bell -:- This Silly Girl Obviously Has No Premie Friends nt -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 02:53:28 (GMT)
__ SB -:- two tickets to paradise...You better have money... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 22:26:59 (GMT)
__ Baby Bell -:- two tickets to paradise and back -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 20:07:09 (GMT)
__ __ Jana -:- THATS A TEEN SEX LINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!NT -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 06:11:41 (GMT)

Walt Whitman again -:- Extra bonus!!! -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 17:49:38 (GMT)
__ raina -:- Poets crying for censorship? -:- Tues, May 09, 2000 at 03:27:47 (GMT)
__ Andrew Loaf Oldham -:- Stool -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 06:02:35 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- Different title -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 02:03:35 (GMT)
__ P.T. Head -:- My Heart For Your Stool -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 19:13:50 (GMT)
__ P.T. Head -:- Extra bonus!!! -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 18:30:53 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Hey, there's a problem with that one! -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 18:36:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Fat Bastard! -:- Hello -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 14:45:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Once again, is there an FA here or not? (??!!#) -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 15:29:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Once again, is there an FA here or not? (??!!#) -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 19:20:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Delelted Poem -:- Tues, May 09, 2000 at 10:12:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- what are you talking about? -:- Tues, May 09, 2000 at 18:46:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ I'm SB -:- Not Selene: Delelted Poem..I don't have it! nt -:- Tues, May 09, 2000 at 14:34:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Once again, is there an FA here or not? (??!!#) -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 20:05:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- that wasn't me. nt -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 15:44:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ WALT -:- Hey, there's a problem with that one! -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 01:03:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- HA HA here's one fer ya, Walt -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 02:44:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ raina -:- serious? -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 18:52:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ L Cohen -:- questioning the warm.......... -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 06:20:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq (aka granpa/ma hanky) -:- Sounds like you'r just going through the motionsNT -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 19:13:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Serious? You've got to be kidding! (nt) -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 18:58:01 (GMT)

Daneane -:- Cozy Family Feeling -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:30:51 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Cozy Family Feeling -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:35:25 (GMT)
__ __ Daneane -:- Cozy Family Feeling -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:37:19 (GMT)

Elaine B. -:- Cult Awareness and Informatiom Center -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 13:32:45 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- Cult Awareness and Informatiom Center -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:09:08 (GMT)

Stuart M -:- ...find what works for you - accept your journey -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 12:08:08 (GMT)
__ Runamok -:- Bicycle parts for lunch -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 08:00:16 (GMT)
__ Coach -:- Your sad post -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 23:22:20 (GMT)
__ __ Francis of Fuckin' Assisi -:- You Go, Coach (nt) -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 03:05:11 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Coach: ****BEST**** Granted! -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 02:04:41 (GMT)
__ SB -:- You selfish premie!! -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:38:09 (GMT)
__ __ Gilead -:- You selfish premie!! -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 02:19:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Excuse me butting in here... -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 11:58:27 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- There's that ACCEPT word again.(nt) -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:23:22 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- There's that ACCEPT word again -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:30:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Daneane -:- Oh, Helen, where did I go wrong with you... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:33:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Listening to my heart -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:37:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Listening to my heart: he is doing it... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:46:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- Daneane.... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:32:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Sure, as long as you bring the beer.(nt) -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:34:38 (GMT)
__ Angry -:- ...find what works for you - accept your journey -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 12:30:26 (GMT)
__ Elaine B. -:- ...find what works for you - accept your journey -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 12:24:23 (GMT)
__ __ Premie Elaine -:- You agree with him or with us?? Just curious....nt -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 15:17:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine B. -:- You agree with him or with us?? Just curious.... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 19:40:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- It was me Elaine -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 01:45:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine B. -:- SB and Stonor -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 02:07:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Sorry Elaine... -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 03:26:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- It's ok SB -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 18:14:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Thanks for 'your therapy'...not! -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 19:26:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Thanks for 'your therapy'...not! -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 19:51:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Wow S.B. That was magnificent ! I love that fiery -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 07:04:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Sarcastic? nt -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 13:36:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Sarcastic? No way ! Loved it truly. nt -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 18:19:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- There are always more than two choices . . . -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 21:37:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Stonor,SB,Susan...Stuart,Mel.... -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 19:14:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Elaine, please: Read your post two... -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 19:39:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ irregular anon -:- this coming from someone -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 23:34:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- and your point? -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 00:29:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Anon -:- and your point? -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 07:21:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Annon -:- and your point? -:- Tues, May 09, 2000 at 21:36:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Anonymous -:- and your point? -:- Tues, May 09, 2000 at 21:42:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Little Yiddish Grandma -:- so glad to hear... -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 21:25:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- How did you guess, Anon!!! :-) -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 12:10:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Hal -:- Elaine B -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 19:55:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine B. -:- For Hal -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 20:30:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Sorry, I know it's 'For Hal' -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 22:15:13 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Who needs a guru? -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 12:23:20 (GMT)
__ __ Gilead -:- Jean-Michel, Can I Be Your Guru? -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 02:20:44 (GMT)
__ __ james flynn -:- Who needs a guru? -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 01:44:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gilead -:- Will You Accept Me for Darshan? -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 02:22:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Is James Flynn Jim? -:- Seriously...nt -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 03:30:22 (GMT)

virginia -:- i don't get it... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 06:42:48 (GMT)
__ JohnT -:- i don't get it... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 16:06:22 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- i don't get it either, Virginia -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:20:14 (GMT)
__ __ Super Brat -:- Brian: You are a genius!! nt -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:50:09 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- i don't get it... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 13:51:30 (GMT)
__ Who me? -:- i don't get it...Do you? Nt -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 12:54:27 (GMT)
__ FaroutRockhouse -:- i don't get it... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 07:02:55 (GMT)
__ __ babaganoush -:- do we know you? -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 08:12:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Hummus pita bread -:- do we know you? -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:27:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ virginia -:- do we know you? -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 08:16:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Virginia is right! -:- You saw one, you saw them all!! -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 15:18:48 (GMT)
__ __ virginia -:- i don't get it... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 07:27:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Your master taught you -:- about drinking, eh? nt -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 15:19:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- i don't get it... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 13:12:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine B. -:- i don't get it... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 13:35:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ virginia -:- i don't get it... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 08:05:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine B -:- i don't get it... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 12:28:49 (GMT)

Walt Whitman.... -:- New poetry contest announced... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 06:06:01 (GMT)
__ James Flynn -:- Poetry Contest 1st Entry -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 13:35:36 (GMT)
__ P.T. Head -:- My Heart is Your Stool -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 06:38:53 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- My Heart is Your Stool -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 12:48:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- My Heart is Your Stool -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:13:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- My Heart is HIS Stool too! -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 15:15:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ P.T. Head -:- So glad to know you got the pun SB -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 04:42:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- My Heart is HIS Stool too! -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 02:34:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Elena -:- I have to answer this one by email..hahahaha nt -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 13:40:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- I didn't write that -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 12:55:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- Sorry, I needed your tilte! NT -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 12:49:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ raina -:- Sorry, I needed your tilte! NT -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:09:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Oh, David Smith... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 15:12:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- yup -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 15:30:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- All you guys are hilarious today -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 15:54:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- But you're going to have to try harder -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 16:08:35 (GMT)

Janice's friend -:- check messages below for important info... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 05:30:12 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- I couldn't love Janice 'that' way. She's a sister -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 05:41:02 (GMT)
__ __ raina -:- janice is a nun? -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 05:50:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Ah Raina, you had to be there -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 05:52:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ raina -:- Ah nothin' -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 05:56:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ raina -:- I get happy clapper!!!! roflol -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 06:12:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- I get happy clapper!!!! roflol -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 16:04:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- more vivid by the minute! -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 17:00:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- more vivid by the minute! Keep lookin! -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 18:29:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- so computers could really cost less! -:- Tues, May 09, 2000 at 02:18:35 (GMT)

george chakaris -:- a hot night in the x premie room -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 04:48:31 (GMT)
__ James Flynn -:- a hot night in the x premie room -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 13:40:26 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- a hot night in the x premie room -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 17:57:35 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- shut up and go watch Neil Young on snl -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 04:54:09 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- shut up and go watch Neil Young on snl -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 05:00:52 (GMT)
__ __ Oliver -:- just a premie waste of space impersonating a sheep -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 04:58:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- Hi!! -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 05:06:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Mania sucks -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 05:20:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Katie/Selene -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:07:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Hi Helene and I agree -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 17:58:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Mania sucks -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 05:26:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ george chakaris -:- oh oh alabama -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 06:08:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ You forgot George to say. -:- oh oh alabama, I'm a premie nt -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 12:53:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- oh oh alabama -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:09:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shhh Helen... -:- He is drugged by the LOVE... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 15:08:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- He is drugged by the LOVE... -:- Mon, May 08, 2000 at 02:50:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ William Shakespeare -:- He is drugged by the LOVE... -:- Sun, May 07, 2000 at 16:45:30 (GMT)


Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 11:29:12 (GMT)
From: James Flynn
Email: not given
To: Everyone
Subject: The Mirror Concept
Message:

Goo Roo Mah Rah Gee 'The Perfect Mirror'

They call you the perfect mirror, that's what the premies say.

When the light of reasons shown on you it is reflected right away.

They say your'e a perfect mirror, that shows us who we are.

So where are my jets and Mansions and the fancy fleet of cars?

If you are the perfect reflection, that shows me how I am,

shouldn't I go on a diet as soon as I possibly can?

Oh my perfect mirror, this really is bizarre, according to my

reflection, I am nothing that you are!

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Date: Wed, May 10, 2000 at 02:56:20 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: James Flynn
Subject: The Mirror Concept/The Vessel of Grace concept
Message:
Love your poem James! God, didn't that perfect mirror thing get old? Man what an easy gig that is! Talk about your teflon leaders. All the power and none of the responsibility.

One thing that I have been thinking about lately: Did you ever sit in satsang and a 'sister ' or 'brother' would look right at you (or at someone else) and say something really horrible. And the party line was 'wow, that's just what I needed to hear', or 'that was Maharaji coming through that person.' Do you ever just want to do that now? Just pop off and say something to someone and then say 'whoops, that was Guru Maharaji's grace talking, not me.' God it was fun being a bunch of spaced out goofballs, wasn't it?

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Date: Wed, May 10, 2000 at 10:13:45 (GMT)
From: James Flynn
Email: not given
To: Helen
Subject: The Mirror Concept/The Vessel of Grace concept
Message:
In answer to your question yes I heard that it is Maharaj Ji's grace or lila used in an attempt to explain the inexplicable many times. Once that magical thinking had been cultivated within us to the extent that it had been we would have believed anything regardless of how far fetched it was. It is sad but also amusing to reflect on how gullible we actually were back then! Somtimes I wish we were still as innocent as we once were. If you know what I mean.
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Date: Wed, May 10, 2000 at 20:34:38 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: James Flynn
Subject: The Mirror Concept/The Vessel of Grace concept
Message:
Yes I DO know what you mean, that was one of the glories of being a premie--being a child. And also one of the 'enfeebling' things about it too. (Dr. Laura's term--the brilliant and insane TV personality).

I don't think I have lost my innocence though, I mean, I am not fundamentally a bitter or cynical person. I don't think one has to lose that in order to wake up and smell the Lard.

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Date: Wed, May 10, 2000 at 20:35:40 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: James
Subject: The Mirror Concept/The Vessel of Grace concept
Message:
I meant to say that Dr. laura is a radio personality
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Date: Tues, May 09, 2000 at 03:21:39 (GMT)
From: Happy Clapper
Email: None
To: James Flynn
Subject: Happy Clappers need Private Jets Too!
Message:
happy happy
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 10:18:34 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: A thought experiment for premies...
Message:
Now inactive, I asked Mel whether it was libellous to call Maharaji a 'Fraud'. Mel said the expression was vague and ambiguous or 'it depends what you mean by..' So here's a little thought experiment which might clarify my use of the expression.

I feel with some confidence (oops!~ - I used the 'f' word…) that I could write a pseudo-M address which was so realistic that any random selection of 'blind' premies would not be able to distinguish it from a real M address if transcripts were placed side by side. I claim no special skills here - I think more-or-less any premie or ex could do the same if they read through some past addresses and worked on that unique M style which combines a grasshopper-like jumping from theme to theme - often mid-sentence - a basic grammatical incoherence, some banal social commentary, plenty of references to 'love' and 'heart' and a pinch of mortality-angst. Throw in a couple of 'funnies' and there you go…

Next I could find a skilled vocal impressionist to master those distinctive vocal inflections then deliver both addresses while I taped them. (I doubt whether I could find an M-clone lookalike to complete the illusion, but there would be nothing to stop me using a couple of 'stills' of Mr Rawat. The premie sample could fixate on 'his form' whilst listening to the two transcripts.)

Question: Would the premies 'experience' something, or learn something, or gain some benefit from the 'real' teachings that they wouldn't equally gain from the 'fake' teachings?

My conviction is that they would not. They would not even be able to identify which was which.

A typical premie response here might be 'I don't know, but I don't care. I already have Maharaji so why would anybody go to all that trouble?'

The reason why it might be worth going to all that trouble - time and resources permitting - is as follows: Premie failure to distinguish one address from the other would lead to two inescapable conclusions…

(a) Our 'Fake' Maharaji is also a Master
(b) Master Maharaji is also a fake.

Come to think of it, flooding the internet with such items would be a great mental methadaone for detoxing premies, perhaps… No nasty symptoms of 'event withdrawal'. Hmm, should we do this?

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Date: Tues, May 09, 2000 at 10:21:16 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: A thought experiment for premies...
Message:
JW did it not too recently. The first 4 or 5 sentences were pretty much EXACTLY the sort of thing Maharaji would say, then it fell off into obvious satire, and you knew it was a joke. But get this. The guy I sit next to at work is a premie, and I read the first few sentences out loud to him (with pauses of course, the pauses are a MUST. Premies just eat up the pauses), and I swear, tears started welling up in his eyes. He had no idea it was a goof. Of course, he began to suspect when I began talking about Daya in low cut blouses. But before that, he had no idea. Heck, even the old premie in me began to get that warm old fuzzy feeling. Sniff, sniff. Thanks JW, that was beautiful, man.
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 17:54:48 (GMT)
From: Elaine B.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: A thought experiment for premies...
Message:
I think that would be fun.
You're logic IMO isn't complete,however.
'...would lead to 2 inescapable conclusions...
a. Our Fake M is also a master
b. Master M is also a fake.'

If you set this whole thing up,I believe that, yes, I may get inspired or soothed, even, by some words you strung together. Of course, I have said before I don't think M is the best speaker and would get bored with stories of dung - put some of those in for authenticity,would ya.
All you're experiment would prove to me was that someone somewhere said something that was neat and reminded me not to get so caught up in the world and to care more about the true reality - which is not 3-dimensional.

So,see your logic IS escapable. And on top of that you or anyone here in your own voice could say something very inspiring and it doesn't make you fake or a master or Maharaji.
Just having fun.

Regards,Elaine

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 19:05:03 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Elaine B.
Subject: I think you're missing the point...
Message:
Hi Elaine, you wrote:

All you're experiment would prove to me was that someone somewhere said something that was neat and reminded me not to get so caught up in the world and to care more about the true reality - which is not 3-dimensional.

So,see your logic IS escapable. And on top of that you or anyone here in your own voice could say something very inspiring and it doesn't make you fake or a master or Maharaji.

Wrong. I believe the experiment would demonstrate way more than the above. It would show the concept of 'Master' to be hollow and also nail the delusion, once and for all, that Maharaji's personal 'darshan' is anything more than a belief-driven concept or experience.

It would show there was no point in attending events. It would show that it doesn't matter which order a premie listens to 'new' satsangs. It would show that it doesn't matter which order Maharaji assembles his words, paragraphs or sentences within any given address, or even what he says... It would show that it matters not who sat on a stage or made the satsang tape. It would show you that Maharaji is no more a Master than you or I. That there is no more reason for you or I to listen to Maharaji's talks than for Maharaji's to listen to our talks, were we to give them. Think about it.

It would show that you or I could equally 'give' the Knowledge techniques to an aspirant with no net loss in experience.

Most of all, it would show that there is no exclusive 'essence of Maharajiness' (or 'Grace' if you prefer). No uniqueness or even distinctness. Not even a special talent. That the one-time Lord of the Universe who for years required premies to sing hymns to him twice daily (including the line 'Our Lord's the Superior Power in Person') is just some guy talking. It would show that any premies who believe otherwise are badly deluded - and, believe me, there are thousands. Have you noticed this is not the sort of thing anybody is allowed say on the ELK site. Why not?

If some guy - any guy - saying something 'very inspiring', as you put it, is the be-all and end-all of the trip then Maharaji most certainly was a con-man when he required me to 'Surrender the reins of my life to him' in exchange for 'such peace as will never die' - and for demanding my financial donations, my unpaid service, my spreading the word on his behalf, my obedience, not to mention my total devotion to him. And he still is a con-man today - just for referring to himself as 'Master' and expecting people to take it on trust because he says so. Either that or he is a deluded fool.

Following the logic of the experiment through properly could be the first step on the way out of this damaging personality cult for any premie willing to give it some serious thought.

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 19:41:06 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I think you're missing the point...
Message:
Nigel,
Well, I have to admit I pictured listening to a tape or video in my kitchen while cooking with stills of GMJ - probably the traditional music and then Rich Little.

Hmm,actually being at a program ...'Darshan'. Have to think about that.

And, I'm sorry, A clang goes off in the works whenever I read that GMJ 'DEMANDED,REQUIRED' this and that.Unpaid service? Jesus, I lived for free in a mansion in various cities - actually I was house mother in most so didn't even have a 'outside' job.What was so hard about obedience - I was a nutty hippie - obedience meant I meditated and got together each nite with fun people. Thank God, someone gave me a purpose,structure.

I know some of you GAVE up SOOO much to DEDICATE your LIVES to Maharaji. I didn't. End of story. Don't have the feelings of being ripped off as you do. I did have a brain and could make my own decisions. I DID move out of the ashram when it was the THANG to move in. I was 'monmot'. Afterall.

'Personality Cult' - what premies do you know anyway? Don't they have brains. Or am I misunderstanding. What do you mean 'personality cult'. I've heard it before.

You know, maybe there are some ex PAM's here so this may not mean squat to anyone. But let's say I'm sitting in front of an imposter. Ok. I have sat in the front seat directly in front of GMJ at a program or two or four. One time I sat and please would someone do this experiment for ME - take five long relaxed inhale and exhales - that would be ten total. Close your eyes or look at an object. OK?...........................................

It's a long time isn't it??? That's how long GMJ and I locked eyes. I'm not a complete looney tune here. I've also looked into many others eyes and meditated. It's wonderful. But you know it was pretty God damn extra special looking into his.
OK maybe it was the moment and I could look into Jim's over a glass of wine...Why did I bring this up ----

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Date: Tues, May 09, 2000 at 13:28:24 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Nigel: right on the nail
Message:

I know some of you GAVE up SOOO much to DEDICATE your LIVES to Maharaji. I didn't. End of story. Don't have the feelings of being ripped off as you do. I did have a brain and could make my own decisions. I DID move out of the ashram when it was the THANG to move in. I was 'monmot'. Afterall.

Laughing a little, Elaine? The sad things is that you are going to speak but when somebody gets aggressive you are there to criticize... You are more than that! You are confused and I hope someday you find out who you are involved with, like WE EXES DID!!!I read most of your posts - gash...can't miss a premie post that always remind me why I become an ex - What you are saying is that you left because you 'had a brain', as to imply that something was wrong and YOU were smart to see it, right? What about the ONE that made ALL the wrong since the 70's?!!!! Is he ok? You are a very bad thinker... No personal offense. Your idea sucks! Simply that. Bad thinker. Maybe you need a K review, or something? What about listening to yourself and becoming honest? Or un-confussed? Define yourself, would you? Is not me to whom you are lying!!

As Nigel said, taugh luck for all the others that suffer or had suffered, right?? You do not care who is the generator of that pain.... You do not care that Elan Vital/Maharaji are deceiving people...That is what you indirectly are saying! What are you made of???

Nice to met you!!

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Date: Tues, May 09, 2000 at 08:20:22 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Elaine
Subject: So you're an independent thinker?!
Message:
Congratulations on your independence of mind that allowed you avoid all the head-fucks by ignoring your Master's instructions. So tough luck on the others, eh? Sorry, but I find sentences like the following to be bordering on the offensive:

I know some of you GAVE up SOOO much to DEDICATE your LIVES to Maharaji. I didn't. End of story. Don't have the feelings of being ripped off as you do. I did have a brain and could make my own decisions.

Have you read the 'journeys' section yet? Is Maharaji not accountable for any of the consequences of his actions?

Anyway, Elaine, your freedom of thought is full of strange contradictions - though you probably can't see it. You object to the term 'personality cult' yet in virtually the next happy new breath you are gushing about the experience you once had of looking into his eyes - get this! - for seconds on end. (You should be a cheerleader on ELK.)

Remember, you don't even know the guy in real life. A teenager in the Michael Jackson fan club would come out with the same sort of stuff but that would tell you nothing about MJ's personal qualities, but a lot about the fan's emotional dependence. A conditioned response and no more.

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Date: Tues, May 09, 2000 at 16:14:57 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: So you're an independent thinker?!
Message:
I don't object to the term 'personality cult' - I don't know how it's used here. Define it for me,please.

Oh,please, the crap I've had to swallow here - personal attacks - I think everyone here can handle something they feel 'borders on offensive.'
I mean, I DID have a brain - what did you do give ALL your money to the DUO director when you were in the ashram. I wasn't a FOOL. Did you give over your car or something - I demanded one of my own. Did you need a toothbrush and you didn't get it - I got plenty bec I demanded it and used logic to get it. If I hadn't kept enough money back already for something. I played in the ashram. I had a sweet little sister that later became an instructor kneel by my bed one weekend batting her eyes saying - didn't I want to come down to Arti? I can tell you she never came in again.

Cheerleader on 'ELK' - that didn't exactly offend me. If that was your intention.

I have read a few 'Journeys'.
If you know alittle of my posts - you would see I don't like all GMJ has done. And yes I think he should be accountable for all he does. As you and I aught to be. And you know what-- we all WILL be. That is one reason why I don't get all hot under the collar about some things. It will all come out in the end. You can be sure of that.
And if all you guys want to get together and actually DO something legally about the issues you want GMJ to be accountable for - I will sit back and watch and feel it is also part of some Divine Plan.
You won't get any attacks from me.
See I'm not your enemy here,Nigel

Enjoy posting with you,
Elaine

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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 04:38:43 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: I'm curious Elaine . . .
Message:
Hi Elaine,

This I am curious about:

And if all you guys want to get together and actually DO something legally about the issues you want GMJ to be accountable for - I will sit back and watch and feel it is also part of some Divine Plan.

Part of THE Divine Plan, or part of m's 'divine plan?'

Stonor

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Date: Thurs, May 11, 2000 at 14:29:59 (GMT)
From: Elaine B.
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Shri Hans story.
Message:
Hmm, Interesting.
I suppose The Divine Plan.

Do you know the story about Shri Hans and some devotee that apparently was asking him something- I forget what- Shri Hans kept saying no. Eventually after travelling far,I believe,the man just broke down and cried and cried. Apparently Shri Hans got a big smile on his face. He said... this man had a terrible eye problem and he knew that the only way to cure it was tears,tears,tears to wash away whatever.

Do I think THAT was a Divine Plan - no. Do I even believe it ever happened - don't know - probably not that way.
Maybe Shri Hans had some insight,no more than you or I could have had.

Elaine B.

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Date: Tues, May 09, 2000 at 23:33:24 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Calm Elaine
Message:
Hi Elaine,

This can be a pretty intense place sometimes. I got burned a few times and became extremely upset and angry. It is a great psychological workshop here. If you try and express personally and from 'the heart' your little flower is likely to get stomped on.

You seem like a very sweet person but you surely realise that you are here expressing justification for Maha's methods and you won't find too much empathy coming your way because of that. Don't take it so personally. No-one knows you and I doubt that anyone actually dislikes YOU. What is unpallatable is complacency and unclear thinking. As a premie I didn't realise how wishy -washy I was. I've now become much more real since leaving and actually a lot more intolerant of vague belief systems in myself and others. I would now describe myself as an agnostic, something I would never have even dreamt of calling myself before. After all I had THE KNOWLEDGE how could I not KNOW.

Now I try and live as much as possible in a state of ' what do I really know', not what others tell me I should believe.

I still am growing as a person and I'm sure that to truly understand who I am , it's beneficial to stand on MY own feet and find MY power inside myself.

So anyway Elaine I really only wanted to give you some support, not start lecturing . I came here as a premie and took some stick too so I know how it feels to be an outsider. Please don't be discouraged. I see you've been posting frequently, sometimes easing off a bit can be good.

Best wishes, Hal

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Date: Wed, May 10, 2000 at 00:23:57 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Hi Hal
Message:
Hi Hal,
Thanks. I know it probably seemed it, but I wasn't really angry or upset. I'm cool.
You're prob right to take breaks once and awhile,tho.

Thanks again, Elaine

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Date: Tues, May 09, 2000 at 17:05:46 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Anticipated response -follow-up
Message:
Nigel,
You or others may jump all over one sentence of everything I wrote...If you bring charges against M ' I will sit back and watch and feel it is also part of some Div Plan.'

I can hear it now.

I can't do such an extreme thing to M when I'm not 100% sure all that he has done-- wasn't to bring you all to this very point. I'm not incensed by his actions and words. Plus, it's not my nature as I've posted before to Jim. Just bec I don't agree with something doesn't turn me into a whistle blower. That is not to say they don't have their place.

Now below I post to Susan - and there - THAT gets me going and would help with anything you needed to get Jagdeo behind bars.

Elaine

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 16:06:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Just an excellent idea, Nige (and how 'bout this?)
Message:
That' is so on the right path. Excellent. And how about this? Do you think that a pseudo-Maharaji could even be programmed to deliver different kinds of Maharaji satsang, so that we get the really intense torqued-up Kissimee shit or maybe even a new 'Peace Bomb' or something? Why settle for the tepid meanderings of today when there's a whol history to mine? Kind of like an interactive wax museum.
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 19:36:59 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Like it!
Message:
In fact the only thing that might prevent the impersonator starting his own cult and milking a whole new bunch of saps for all they're worth would be his own moral integrity...
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 11:06:10 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Nigel
Subject: A serious afterthought...
Message:
If the practice of 'Knowledge' was as widespread as the practice of 'hypnosis', it would certainly merit serious doctoral research funding, in which case you throw in some further design permutations:

- Premies listen to 'fake' Master believing it to be 'real' Master.
- Premies listen to 'real' Master believing it to be 'fake' Master.
- Premies listen to 'fake' Master believing it to be 'fake' Master.
- Premies listen to 'real' Master believing it to be 'real' Master.

(You could contruct similar experiments to compare 'Knowledge' meditation techniques with non-Knowledge techiques, using premies, non-premies and ex-premies.)

I suspect the results would be pretty much the same as you get when investigating hypnosis, namely the only discriminating factor which will lead to a subject having a 'hypnotic' experience is the belief that what they are experiencing is hypnosis. The hypnotist's characteristics or choice of induction procedure are entirely irrelevant.

Similarly, the only discriminating factor which would lead to a premie identifying a 'Knowledge' experience - in this case a 'darshan-by-proxy' experience - is the belief that what they are experiencing is a legitimate part of the practice of Knowledge.

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 19:35:13 (GMT)
From: trixie
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: again missing the point...
Message:
why cant it have photos floating around the screen with some fire works and audio tapes and Rod Stewart songs and some cleverly inserted advertisements for donations? Kind of a Saturday Night Live Maharahaha
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 13:00:38 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: A serious afterthought...
Message:
'Similarly, the only discriminating factor which would lead to a premie identifying a 'Knowledge' experience - in this case a 'darshan-by-proxy' experience - is the belief that what they are experiencing is a legitimate part of the practice of Knowledge.'

I would bet the ranch that the placebo group(fake Master)would report similar results to those experiencing the'real' master.

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 02:15:03 (GMT)
From: Gilead
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Did you ever see 'Under Siege'?
Message:
Susan, I'm not sure if you noticed my thread below, so I don't want you to miss it. I was reflecting on your anger at new ideas, and how you start labelling me as 'illogical', etc., I think it's because you're hearing a view point for the first time. But if you reflect, you'll find out its merits. Sometimes, the truth hurts, especially when critical of a system that has been believed in, ie. Americanism.
Anyway, did you ever see that movie 'Under Siege'? You remind me so much, by your threads, of that young lady in the birthday cake. She got made at Steve Seagull, and say 'you need to learn one thing, I don't date musicians, and I don't like guns', and she needed to hear 'do you like dying'? by Seagull, when she kept making noise. No offense, but you do seem like her on your posts!
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 04:36:15 (GMT)
From: P.T. HEAD
Email: None
To: Gilead
Subject: Yes Virginia, it could be WORSE than Maharagi
Message:
oh my FUCKING god
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 11:03:03 (GMT)
From: Turtle Head Peeping!
Email: None
To: P.T. HEAD
Subject: Yes Virginia, it could be WORSE than Maharagi
Message:
Hey Groovy baby,
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 16:56:29 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Turtle Head Peeping!
Subject: Yes Virginia, it could be WORSE than Maharagi
Message:
yes! please tell me! (2nd time trying to postthis! weird)
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 03:26:27 (GMT)
From: no
Email: None
To: Gilead
Subject: Did you ever see 'Under Siege'?
Message:
Breaking the Chain: Breaking free of cult programming

Chapter one: An overview of the Illuminati

In order to understand Illuminati cult programming, it is first necessary to understand a bit about the structure and philosophy of the organization. The Illuminati are a group of people who follow a philosophy known as 'Illuminism' or 'enlightenment'. The Illuminati were named several hundred years ago, but trace their roots and history to the ancient mystery religions of Egypt, ancient Babylon, and even Mesopotamia. Out of these ancient religions, which were practiced secretly over hundreds and hundreds of years, there arose esoteric groups which continued to practice the rites, traditions, and enculturation brought in from the original groups.

Over the centuries, these groups practiced openly in some countries, and covertly in countries where Christianity or other religions opposed their practices. Some of the groups which came out of these ancient roots included the order of the Knights Templar, Rosicrucian's, Baphetomism, and Druidic cults. These groups were the forerunners, or roots, of modern day Illuminism. The Zriginal Illuministic leaders chose to take what they felt were the best practices of each root religion, combine them into principles, then organized these principles according to specific guidelines.

Modern day Illuminism is a philosophy funded by the wealthy, but practiced in all social strata. It is a philosophy whose tenets have spread across the world. It started with the German branch of Rosicrucianism, spread to England, then came to the United states with the first settlers.

The Illuminati have 3 main branches: the Germanic branch, which oversees the others, the British branch, which handles finances, and the French/Russian branch. All 3 branches are represented in both the United States and Canada, as well as every country in the world.

How the Illuminati are organized in the United States:

The Illuminati have groups in every major city of the United States. They originally entered the U.S. through Pittsburgh, Pa., and from there, spread across the US. There are 18 cities across the US, which are considered major 'power centers' for Illuminati power and/or influence. These include: Washington, DC and the surrounding areas; Albany, New York; Pittsburgh, Pa; the 'golden triangle' of the Winston Salem, Raleigh, NC area; Minneapolis, Minn; Ann Arbor, Mich; Wichita, Kan.; Phoenix, Az.; Portland, Or.; Flagstaff, Az.; Seattle, Wash.; Houston, Tx; Los Angeles, Ca. and surrounding areas; Atlanta, Ga.; New Orleans, La., Springfield, Miss. Other cities are important to the Illuminati, as well, but these cities funnel money for them, conduct research, and often regional councils sit within them.

Hierarchy of the Illuminati

The Illuminati have organized their society along extremely hierarchical, or stratified, levels. In fact, the top levels are known as:

Hierarchical level

The Illuminati have divided the United States into 7 geographical regions; each region has its own regional council, composed of 13 members, with an advisory board of 3 elders to each one. These regions interact for purposes of finances; personnel; teaching, etc. Beneath each regional council, is a local council. This is a council Of 13 members, the head of whom sits on the regional council, and gives it information about the local groups underneath his leadership. The local council will also have an advisory council of 3. A local leadership council in a large metropolitan area might look like this:

<>Head of local council(reports to regional council)

Two intermediaries(report all activities under leader to him)

Four administrators(oversee finances, administer, set up group activities)

Six head trainers(over trainers in local groups, teach other trainers)

Underneath the above leadership council, will be six people designated as informers or intermediaries, who go to the local group meetings, interact with local group leaders, and report to the leadership council.

Anarchical level: the levels below the leadership council are known as the anarchical levels. Underneath the intermediate level, is the local group level. It will look like this:

Local 'Sister groups' (will vary in number, according to the size of the city, or cities, in the area). A large metropolitan area may have anywhere from ten to twenty seven groups. Each sister group will be headed up by:

A high priest and priestess: this job is rotated every 3 years, to Allow different people within the group to take on leadership roles. Each group will also have different members, with specific roles/jobs within the group. These roles will be addressed in chapter 2.

One thing that I would like to emphasize is the fact that the Illuminati today are generational. It's members are born into the group, which
is highly organized, as described above. The set up discussed above is representative, with minor variations, of most major metropolitan regions of the United States. Smaller population centers will be organized under similar guidelines, but will be umbrellaed together with several cities within the region to create the local leadership council.

HOW THE ILLUMINATI MAKE MONEY

The Illuminati are involved in many areas of making money, as they need continued financing to survive. There are several illegal enterprises that they are involved in, as well as legal ones. Drug running: The Illuminati linked up with the Mafia and the Columbians, years ago, to help each other out with bringing drugs into the United States. They also provide couriers for taking drugs and money out of the States. The Illuminists are generally wealthy businessmen, who have 4 layers of people underneath them. The fourth layer down actually has contact with the people in the drug industry. They never identify themselves as Illuminists; only as people interested in investing, with a guaranteed profit, and are highly secretive. In return, the local groups supply people willing to be couriers of money or drugs, or people willing to help cover for the local operations.

Pornography: The Illuminati are linked in many cities with pornography/prostitution/child prostitution/ and white slavery sales. Again, several layers are present, as a buffer, between the true 'management' and those either engaged in the activities, or in paying for/funding and eventually being paid for the activities. Children are often supplied from the local cult groups, and taught to be child prostitutes (and later, adult prostitutes); are photographed and filmed in every type of pornography available, including 'snuff films' and violent films.

Gun running: The Illuminati and other groups are also involved in international gun sales and shipments.The Illuminists have well trained couriers who will cross international and state lines. These couriers are highly secretive, and will not reveal their sources, on pain of suicide or assassination. These people are accountable to others above them, with two more 'buffer layers' of people above these, before the person in the Illuminati with money, who helps fund this, is found.

Buying access codes for military computers: The Illuminati will have people from all strata of civilian life trained to go and make pickups near or on military bases. A typical person used might be the innocent looking wife of a military person, a local businessman, or even a college student. There is a contact inside the base, also a dissociative Illuminist, who brings the information to the outside contact. Occasionally, the contact person is paid with money, information, or goods. The military computer codes are changed on random schedules; the Illuminati have at least 5 or 6 contacts on each major base, who alert them when the codes are getting ready to change, on pain of death. The Illuminists like having access to military computers, because that will gain them entrance to closed files the world over.

Hiring and selling assassinations: this is done worldwide, more in Europe than in the States. These people are paid big money to do either a private or political assassination. The money is paid either to the assassin, or to the trainer; usually they both divide the fee. The assassin is offered protection in another country for awhile, until the trail runs cold. If the kill is done in Europe they may be sent to the far east or the U.S., and vice versa if the kill is done in the U.S. The Illuminati have a wide arena of places and false identities to hide these people, unless for some reason they want the assassin disposed of as well. Then, he/she is caught and immediately executed.

Mercenaries/military trainers: guess who gets paid money to come in and train paramilitary groups? Who has training camps all over the states of Montana, Nevada, and North Dakota? Who occasionally will offer their expertise in return for a large financial reward? They never advertise themselves as Illuminati, unless the group is known to be sympathetic to their cause. Instead, these are tough, cold, brutal military trainers, who offer to teach these groups in return for money, or even better, a promise to affiliate with their group in return (loyalty in return for knowledge). More and more paramilitary groups have been brought into the Illuminati this way, without their full knowledge of who and what the group really is. This gives the Illuminists a way to monitor these groups (their trainers report on them, and their activities), and it can be useful to have trained military groups that they can call on someday.

Banking: The original Illuminists were bankers, and they have highly trained financiers to organize their money, and funnel the above illicit funds into more 'respectable' front groups/organizations. They will also start benevolent charities, community organizations, etc., as fronts, and funnel the money from a broad base into these groups. The Illuminati particularly pride themselves on their money making and manipulation skills, and their ability to cover their paper trails expertly, through layer after layer. All banking trails eventually will lead to Belgium, the Illuminati financial center for the world.

These are some of the major money making enterprises that the Illuminati are engaged in. They have a lot of financial resources, backing their enterprises, which means that in reality they can engage the best lawyers, accountants, etc. to help cover their trail as well.

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 03:32:02 (GMT)
From: yes
Email: None
To: no
Subject: Did you ever see 'Under Siege'?
Message:
Television, the media, religion, science, the education factory, the banking cartels, multiconglomerate kingpin big businesses, all areas of control on the manipulation superhighway. Every facet of our programmed reality is directed towards the grand slaughter of the soul, that will unify the world under the tyrannical ' Novus Ordo Seclorum.'

Digital taxation? Indeed not a joke. The proliferation of the freeflow of information which has exploded upon the consciousness, was never intended and must be regulated and clamped down upon to stifle freethinking, and keep new information and ideas at bay. Perhaps it was intended, for a spell, to gather a database, a digitized network of globalized centralization. Perhaps our raping and ruling power broking, elite, gangster, slavemasters, had a scheme to create a digital economy, one based on intangible illusionary currency, that could be collapsed on a whim, to further centralize, and reduce currency to a virtually microscopic chip-transceiver, that could be implanted beneath the skin of humans. I thought this all nonsense not long ago, and now this blatantly obvious scenario is not only probable, it is occurring all around us, every day, while our skies fill with chemical death toxic fume clouds, oh, sorry, mosquito repellent. I was not alerted to the mosquito infestation problem, (which is apparently a world wide problem, if that is true) but that's what the douche bag media is saying round these parts. Oh, OK, there's mosquitos ya say? oh good then, nothing to worry about, now I can go shove my head back up my ass.

Ahh the digital economy. Enslave us all to the earth killing money barons. Poison us, and chip us, while Mondex and Applied Digital Solutions poise themselves like a rapacious cobra, spitting venom, preparing for the sinking of their teeth into an all to willing society, to the tune of mega billions. ' It's so convenient' ' Never lose your child again!'

Tag em, then bag em! No chance for parole. Freedom or slavery. Your choice of course.

All of our programmed little 'knowings' are limiting falsehoods we cling onto, in order to remain secure in our self imposed belief structures. We all remain imprisoned by limited thought, false truths, division, superiority illusions, self doubt, feelings of worthlessness, materialism, indoctrination, spiritual depravity, and unbalanced thinking and behavior. We cling to the system we know is failing us, so that we may survive an empty existence, detached and meaningless and self destructive, while we struggle unhappily for our necessities, selling our blood for food and shelter. Continuing on in a distracted daze, failing to realize that our most basic birth rights have been plundered away from us : the right to drink clean water, and breathe pure air. The right to think and express freely.

How much of your soul are you willing to sell, for your portion of manufactured success within their surrealistic, propagated reality/mind machine? How much time is left before a choice can no longer be made.? How much forsaking of our brethren, how much infection of our earth mother, before her immune system counteracts the virus of humanity, to cleanse and maintain balance? When the pressure is on, how many of us will bow down in robotic servitude and become well oiled gears within the reality machine? How many will make a stand for sanity and be brave enough to act as a 'wrench in the works?'

What 'is' or rather what is believed to be so, quite simply, often times, just ain't so! The crashing down of the Berlin Wall was a telltale sign that the industrial age had come to a conclusion, and that the information age was being ushered in. How sad it is that so many still cling onto industrial age thinking, and old false doctrines in these times of rapid acceleration. The age of reason has yielded itself to the age of possibility, and yet, many still try to reason away new revelations, and cling on adamantly to 'old school' dogmas, all the while, the noose gets tighter as the shackles of world slavery are firmly put into place. Even with the enormous overpopulation of this planet, there is still plenty of food for all. That is how abundantly the Earth was made to provide for the creation. Of course, there is no profit without misery, no material gain without suffering, and no God damned Mcdonalds Quarter Pounders without mass murder of creatures and poisoning of people. God there's a lot of profit in death! Death sells! And it is the death of the human race that will yield the greatest gain, with enough microchipped little zombies left over to enslave and be made to worship their sick little digitized malevolent antigod.

Think of the peoples practically removed from existence already. The Indigenous Americans, for one. But it's OK, we don't have to put our hearts out to the Indians anymore, they made it better, they pictured a Native woman and child on our new fucking dollar coin. 'Don't worry, we'll just give em some casinos, and put their faces on our money, now go displace some families and fuck their land some more, time is money!' Next thing you know, they'll be printing bills with Weishaupt's face on them. And with people like Clinton DICKtating the affairs of the country, while we let it happen, maybe we deserve that proverbial 'shaft.' We are a disgraced nation(all earthlings) for allowing the creation to be so desecrated. Shame on the world! As for the people like myself, who understand that this country was never free, and yet value and believe in the principles of the constitution, you might as well wipe your ass with that useless document, it's practically nonexistent. It's been stripped away before our very eyes. All it takes is one national emergency to rain on our constitutional parade, and suspend our sacred document forever.

As our society rapidly deteriorates before our very eyes, our children murder one another in school, our skies darken with death clouds, our leaders sell us out for greed driven psychotic delusions, a new vision of consciousness, of aliveness, stirs and rumbles within the deepest recesses of the collective psyche. Soon to reach the boiling point and explode with ferocious awareness, it is as if our dark leaders are forcing the lid onto a boiling pot. Clamp it down tightly, and it will only explode twice as fiercely. For these are the times that all the great prophets spoke of. Our life support system earth mother is ending, and so beginning major cycles, that it is believed will propel us yet higher into a realm of complete understanding, harmony, joy. The old structures will not let go willingly. They will cling on, they will impose, they will destroy, they will wreak havoc. If it is truly thought, or perception that programs the reality machine, if perception shapes our reality, then where is the true power? Where is the abundant, harmonic, life that was intended for all? Surely it must lie within the collective mind. Surely the power is with us, as indeed it has always been.

This is why they must bombard and distract the human psyche. They must make us believe in falsehoods, so as to trick us into yielding our power to mediocrity. They must divide, and spearhead the heart with many differing factions of the same diseased nonsense. They must persuade us to ingest poison, and to engage in anti-natural consumption, all the while targeting our children with nonsensical ramblings like,' it does a body good.' With peoples apathy in the states, they could probably get away with total honesty in advertising, and people would still buy their crap. How about this for the new milk slogan, you know, to make it more truthful : 'milk, it's filled with toxic chemicals, it is totally un natural for people to drink milk of another species, it does a body terrible, but it does our fucking pocketbooks great.' I know I know, they'd never say 'fuck' and besides, doubt they'd be able to fit that on a carton.

Or how about : McDonalds, 'billions and billions served.' to 'billions and billions of cows murdered, in the most vile and horrendous conditions, and the masses poisoned on shit that was never meant to be ingested.' OK one more, Nike,' just do it.' to : Nike, 'just do it, just buy our shoes that were created from child slave labor, Jordan needs a new condo in Maui.'

Even our taxation in this country is an illusion. The Internal Rip-off Service, is a privately owned cartel, sorry, organization, not federally owned. The second amendment of the constitution was never ratified, which means that taxes are voluntary! For an amendment to be ratified, you need a majority of 48 votes. The second amendment received a grand total of 2. And yet 60% of our hard earned blood and sweat money, goes to them, you know, to fund the war on drugs and such. Actually, the money goes to importing the shit, and the whole war on everything is a blatant lie and an utter illusion. The CIA, Central Importation Agency, is the major front for the crack and smack dope em up drug czar politicians, all the while hiding behind irrelevant hypocritical slogans like ' just say no.' I'm sick and tired of hearing that ' paying taxes is the American thing to do,' from these so called patriots. This country was founded on a tax revolution, and we fought tariffs adamantly for years, until the excuse of the manipulated World War came about to begin the raping, and communistic Luciferian takeover of the people of this nation.

Time is running very short indeed. So lets all sit back, with a Big Mac and a Budweiser, and breathe in deeply, those chemtrail fumes from above, while we convince ourselves that this doesn't affect or concern us. Lets all just sit back and enjoy the show, after all, we're not responsible for cleaning up this mess,, or are we? Lets sleepwalk off to work, and come home to our shattered existences and plop down in front of the TV, the mind controlling, thought numbing, stupidity box. Lets make sure we get to those polls, and vote,,,hmmm, nice choices; the Mafia guy, or the cocaine dude. Whatever you do, don't stand up for your rights or those of your fellow man, we saw what happened in Seattle! Globalize, centralize, unify us all under the big brother flag of one world slave order. Want to take part in our Satanic system, you know, so you can eat! OK, that'll be one soul please. If you don't like it, you can rot in one of the many prison camps we have established in your nation, with your own tax dollars of course! We the people, remember? If we don't fight for this nation, who will? If we let their diabolical plan be implemented, what will become of our futures in this far off corner of remote space and time? I know, I know, you own your own business, making thousands a month, so you will be able to buy your way out of it, you'll be OK. All the paper currency in the world won't mean shit when you can't buy or sell without your Multitechnological Automated Reader Card, and their Secure Electronic Transactions. Scan my head, I want to buy this food for my family, scan my right hand, I want to pay my God damned phone bill! Lo-jack my children, in case of kidnappers, chip me for my own 'safety and security,' and turn on the TV...I want to watch Springer! Wake up please,,,We are the ones we've been waiting for...

The human implantable microchip is barely the size of a grain of rice.


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Date: Tues, May 09, 2000 at 01:36:01 (GMT)
From: The expert witness
Email: None
To: yes
Subject: Did you ever see 'Under Siege'?
Message:
Shit!! I just typed out a reply - goin at it for the last 15 minutes - then it vanished when I posted it - bollocks!!!
Haven't got the time to re-write it. :(

Anyway - an excellent post you made there boy!
keep at it :)

Also included were responses to Stoner and Sir Gilead from post way down there somewhere - but the whole fuggen things gone -damm!

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 03:34:18 (GMT)
From: Maybe
Email: chomski
To: yes
Subject: Did you ever see 'Under Siege'?
Message:
If we want to investigate the topic of human rights in the 'world of today and tomorrow', the announced topic,1 if we want to discuss that in a serious way, we have to begin obviously by focusing attention on the major actors in the world arena and their practices and their guiding values and goals, and these of course we determine not by listening to the words, which are cheap, but by looking at their consistent practice. So we therefore focus attention primarily on the world's dominant power and the 'principal architects of policy' within it - I am borrowing a phrase from Adam Smith referring in his day to the 'merchants and manufacturers' of England who mobilised state power. He pointed out that they ensured that their own interests were 'most peculiarly attended to', however 'grievous' the impact to others, including the people of England.2 Now that is a truism and remains true. It was restated earner in this century by the leading American philosopher, John Dewey.

Paraphrasing the truism, he pointed out that 'politics is the shadow cast by big business over society' and that there are only limited possibilities for advancing human rights or freedom or democracy if we pay attention only to the shadow and refuse to look at the substance - again a truism.

Well, I will adhere to the truism and also follow the reasonable course of focusing attention on be world's most powerful and dominant nation, without intending to suggest or imply that anyone else is any different, just less independent and less influential and therefore less destructive, usually. So I will start by looking at the power that fifty years ago 'assumed, out of self-interest, responsibility for the welfare of the world capitalist system'. I am quoting noted diplomatic historian Gerald Haines, who also happens to be the senior historian of the CIA. This is a highly regarded monograph on the US takeover of Brazil in 1945. That is when the US was finally powerful enough to expel its main enemies,3 France and Britain, from the Western hemisphere and to take over 'the colossus of the South', as it was called, in recognition of its extraordinary riches and potential. So the US took over the colossus of the South and, quoting Haines again, turned it into a 'testing area for modern scientific methods of industrial development'.

In fact we learn quite a lot about the tonight's topic by seeing what was achieved by close American tutelage for half a century in this optimal testing area. Couldn't get a better test: enormous resources, tremendous potential, no interference, just perfect to see how the testing area works.4 Well, there were achievements. One of the most dramatic was the installation of the first neo-Nazi national security state in the hemisphere in the early 1960s.5 It is a big country, so there was a quick domino effect. The purpose was to ward off the threat of parliamentary democracy, which was beginning to get out of control. And indeed it was considered a great achievement. It was described by Kennedy's ambassador, Lincoln Gordon, as 'the single most decisive victory for freedom in the mid-twentieth century'. Really important. He then went on to become the president of a great university. The regime and the resulting terror were welcomed not only by liberal democrats but particularly by the business world, which was awed by what was called the 'economic miracle' that resulted. Brazil was described as 'the Latin American darling of the business community' by Business Latin America, the main business journal for Latin America. In 1989, when Haines wrote, he described the outcome as 'a real American success story'. 'America's Brazilian policies were enormously successful', bringing about 'impressive economic growth based solidly on capitalism'.

So there is a good testimony to our goals and values and a very good indicator or what lies ahead under near optimal conditions with no interfering factors, like the Cold War, to obscure our guiding values. There was not a Russian in sight, of course.

Well, the success is quite real. US Investors and a tiny elite6 profited enormously, meaning it was an economic miracle in the technical sense of the word, kind of like Mexico in the last few years. Mexico is a recent economic miracle until December 1994. The number of billionaires in Mexico went from one in 1987 to 24 in 1994,7 mostly cronies of the president who benefited from what is called 'privatisation', which means the giving away of public resources to your rich friends and family. From 1993 to 1994 praises were rising to the skies. The number of billionaires went from 13 to 24, rising just about in parallel with poverty. According to the Mexican government, the proportion of the population living in extreme poverty increased from 13% to 24% in the same years, 1990 to 1994. Wages fell about 50% for the population during the economic miracle. Starvation increased; misery increased; billionaires increased. It was terrific, a real economic miracle. Of course, profits for Western investors were going through the roof as well. That was until December 19th. Then something happened. In fact, what happened was perfectly obvious in advance to everyone, except apparently the economists in the World Bank who either were or pretended to have been surprised,

Going back to Brazil, during its period of economic miracle, 1970 to the time that Haines wrote, the numbers were really good. The growth rate was about twice that of much lauded Chile under Pinochet and its successors. That is now the star pupil, Brazil, suffered a collapse, like Mexico, and automatically shifted from triumph of capitalism to illustration of evils of statism, if not Marxism. That is a transition that takes place quite effortlessly in the intellectual culture and, indeed, routinely as circumstances require.

Meanwhile at the peak of the miracle, the overwhelming majority of the population, maybe 80% or so, were living in utter misery, some of the worst conditions in the world. There is no doubt that they would have regarded Eastern Europe in the same years as an absolute paradise. That is a fact that also teaches some obvious lessons, which are not drawn with quite impressive discipline, because they are the wrong lessons. US aid and support during the period of the worst terror and torture also teaches some lessons, as does the same story while the other dominoes were falling, and murderous neo-Nazi regimes5 were being established throughout the hemisphere, always with enormous US support and aid. By that time the Russians were indeed involved, becoming the leading trading partners of the Argentine neo-Nazi generals5 and in general consorting quite happily with the worst killers and torturers everywhere, being junior managers in the process of bringing democracy and freedom to the region.

This 'success story' for foreign investors and a small elite, that is a fraction of the population, reflects the guiding values of the tutors and the designers. Exactly as in Adam Smith's day, it does not matter how 'grievous' is the impact on the lower orders. The implications for the future are pretty obvious, particularly when we discover that there is nothing unusual about that, in fact it is absolutely routine and in fact virtually exceptionless, maybe totally exceptionless.8 That is the way the goals and the values guide policy quite generally and in fact at home as well, a rather important fact. I'll come back to it.

These fundamental values were recognised quite clearly about 350 years ago by very lively and independent working class press in the United States in mill towns a couple of miles from where I live, the centre of the American industrial revolution, which incidentally happens to have been achieved as has invariably been the case by radical violation of the market discipline that is rammed down the throats of the poor. The factory girls and the mechanics - that is what they were called - of Lowell Lawrence, in their press deplored what they called the New Spirit of the Age, Gain Wealth forgetting all but Self - something which they regarded as a degrading and depraved doctrine, which they bitterly condemned and resisted, as indeed they have been doing after almost two centuries of intensive effort to instil the new spirit of the age.

These efforts to institute the New Spirit of the Age, reached extraordinary levels in the past few decades. That is probably the most important feature of the modern era. I will come back to this.

Well, 'the masses', as they are commonly called in the business press and in internal government documents, pose continuing problems, both abroad and at home. Abroad they pose the problem that was recognised by Winston Churchill in 1914, when he reminded his cabinet colleagues that 'we have got all we want in territory, but our claim to be left in unmolested enjoyment of vast and splendid possessions, mainly acquired by violence, largely maintained by force, often seems less reasonable to others than to us', for some reason. That requires regular doses of terror as in Brazil during the Kennedy, Johnson years - recall that was the peak period of American liberalism - or today, again revealing the substantial irrelevance of the Cold War.

To take the favourite example, instead of my picking an example, let's let the Clinton administration pick its example. Their example is Haiti. They now put that forth right now, as the prime example, I am quoting, of the 'immense opportunities of the new world opening before us, as we consolidate the victory of democracy and markets'. That is the National Security Advisor Anthony Lake, who is kind of the intellectual of the administration. speaking to the Council on Foreign Relations right after the American troops landed in the restored democracy.

I'll spare you the shameful history, including one of the prime examples of what is known technically as 'Wilsonian idealism' - Wilson's murderous invasion of Haiti, which killed several thousand people, re-established slavery, established the rule of the National Guard to control the people, while turning the whole country into an American plantation, later into an export platform for assembly plants where workers, mostly women, try to survive on 5-10 cents an hour, working 12 hour days under impossibly miserable conditions. That is also what is called an economic miracle. In fact, during the 1980s, when this was going on, USAID described Haiti as becoming 'the Taiwan of the Caribbean'. Meanwhile real wages were dropping 50%. What was let of the agricultural system was being destroyed by the usual development policies, as they are called.

In fact everything was going just fine until 1990, when Washington committed a tactical error. They allowed a free election. The reason was that they were confident, as was everyone, that their own candidate, with enormous resources and so on - their candidate was Mark Bazin, a World Bank official - everybody assumed he would just walk away, win easily and continue with the economic miracle. Well, the problem is nobody was paying attention to what was going on in the hills where the peasants live and the slums of Port-au-Prince and so on. What was going on there was something pretty remarkable. The peasants in the hills and the slum dwellers had created a very vigorous and lively civil society, with grassroots movements and unions and all sorts of other things, and in fact it was powerful enough to sweep into office their own candidate, with an overwhelming majority, just shocking everybody. The standard line these days is that we have to go back to Haiti and teach them democracy, because these backward people don't understand it. Outside of a real commissar culture,9 anyone would just crack up with laughter watching this. We could go to Haiti and go up to the hills and learn something about democracy.

The US turned at once to undermining the elected Aristide government in every possible way to correct the error. Seven months later it was overthrown in a military coup. That set off three years of brutal terror. The Organisation of American States called an embargo. Washington at once undermined the embargo, namely by exempting US firms, saying they were doing this for the benefit of the people in Haiti. The only way to benefit the people of Haiti is to exempt the US firms from the embargo. The New York Times had an article where they described how they were 'fine-tuning' the embargo, because of our human rights interests. So they exempted US firms. Trade in the first year of the military regime was not much below the norm. It increased 50% under Clinton, when he took over. The Bush and the Clinton administrations both informed the Texaco Oil Corporation that the US government would allow their illegal shipments of oil. They informed them that the shipments were illegal, but they said they could do it with impunity, because nobody would do anything about it. Oil is of course the major factor in an embargo. So the oil kept flowing happily to the junta and the rich coup supporters.

You could sort of see it but it was not known that it was authorised by the Bush and the Clinton administrations until Sunday, the day before the troops landed. There was a Justice Department leak of an inquiry into the authorisation. It was no secret. I was monitoring the AP wires that day, because it was obvious that something was going to happen in Haiti. That was when Jimmy Carter was there, meeting General Cedras and his 'slim attractive wife' - I don't know if you have read all that stuff. But while this was going on, the Justice Department leaked the story. It was all over the AP wires. It was the main story of the day. It was impossible to miss. They kept repeating it, big story, never been any embargo, never been any sanctions. Both administrations had told the oil companies: you keep shipping oil illegally, we're not going to do anything about it.

I wrote an article the next day about Haiti, but my article was going to come out in six weeks or so. I wrote it in the past tense, as if everybody knew all this, because it was obviously the big story of the week. I was wrong. It was totally suppressed. On Monday, the day of the invasion, there was nothing. I got interested, so I did a databank search on it. On Tuesday, the second day, it hit a newspaper: Pratt's Oilgram, a professional journal of the oil industry, which reported it. On Wednesday, the next day, there were about ten lines somewhere in the Wall Street Journal totally obscure and meaningless, and it started to get into the small newspapers, like Dayton Ohio and things like that where the editors really aren't all that sophisticated and they don't quite understand what has to be suppressed. It has yet to make it to the New York Times and the Washington Post after months. Now, that was obviously the biggest story of the week, when the troops were landing. Biggest story of the week, big headline, any free press would have had a story saying: there never was an embargo, there never were sanctions, we're landing troops for some other reason. We'll wait a long time for that one.

By then the popular organisations had been pretty well decimated. The threat of democracy was removed. The US forces landed with a great fanfare.10 The killers and torturers were sent off to lives of luxury, courtesy of the American taxpayer - I guess their 'slim, attractive wives' are fine. But Jimmy Carter doesn't seem to be getting his Nobel Prize11 - probably pretty upset about that. There was great self-adulation all over the place about how we were bringing democracy and freedom back to Haiti. However, there was much less attention - as far as I can determine flat zero attention - to the only important fact, namely that the United States had provided President Aristide with a very specific economic plan, which is public, you can read it if you can find it. The economic plan - here is the crucial passage of it, it says: 'the renovated state must focus on an economic strategy centered on the energy and initiative of Civil Society, especially the private sector, both national and foreign'. That means the core of Haitian civil society is US investors and the super rich coup supporters. That is Haitian civil society. They have to get the benefits of any foreign aid that is coming in, not the peasants in the hills and the people living in the miserable slums, who made the mistake of trying to enter the public arena.

Well, Haiti is back on track,10 following the principles of Washington and its defeated candidate, Mark Bazin, and it is well on its way to becoming an economic miracle in the usual sense once again.

All of this has been suppressed with pretty impressive discipline, here too as far as I am aware, in favour of a different story, namely the story that Anthony Lake gave, which I quoted before, which is uniform in the press and the intellectual culture. That makes sense on certain assumptions. It makes sense on the assumption that was perhaps expressed most lucidly by one of my favourite sources of quotes. I think he is there for my benefit in fact, the guy who holds the chair of Eaton Professor of the Science of Government at Harvard, Samuel Huntington. He wrote recently that the United States must maintain its 'international primacy' for the benefit of the world, because alone in history its 'national identity is defined by a set of universal economic and political values, namely liberty, democracy, markets and equality'. Now notice that that is a definition, so the science of government teaches. Since it is true by definition, there is no need to look at annoying facts.4 You don't do experiments to find if two plus two equals four, everybody understands that. So you don't have to look at the facts of history past and present, you don't have to look at what was happening in Haiti. And since the US by definition stands for equality, you don't have to look at the fact that as he wrote, the US had reached by far the highest levels of inequality in any industrial society, in fact the highest level since 1929, right before the stock market crash, when the level of inequality was artificially inflated by the stock market bubble which soon broke. That is where it is now, higher than the rest of the century, by far the highest level in the world, twice that of England. The top one per cent of the population has 40% of the wealth, twice England. All that increased in the '80s. Take, say, New York, the richest city in the world. Inequality is higher than in Guatemala, and going up. But that doesn't matter because by definition, we are committed to equality like all other good things, so you don't have to look at those facts.

Meanwhile there are soaring profits, double digit growth for the Fortune 500, for the last four years. Half the population suffered an absolute decline in wealth, right through the glorious 1980s. Real wages have been declining steadily since 1980, continuing right through the Clinton recovery. There are consequences, like Oklahoma City.

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 04:10:05 (GMT)
From: Perhaps
Email: None
To: Maybe
Subject: Unibomber typeing from prison?
Message:
Secret societies fall apart like any group.
A bar filled with Illuminati members would look and sound like a sad group of nobodies.
REAL illuminati look like the JM tour pictures!
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 04:22:26 (GMT)
From: Gilead
Email: Idol Breaker
To: Perhaps
Subject: Rules of Engagement
Message:
Did you ever see the film 'Rules of Engagement'? It highlights the abuses of the US government, ATF & FBI, against the church members of the Seventh Day Adventists Branch Davidians, and even has video interviews of David Koresh and others, showing how they were shot by the ATF/FBI. I would never want to join such a group, but the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is supposedly for all, including those that Mr. Hassan and AFF would label as cult members.
I'm glad Amnesty International, with all of its shortcomings, did acknowledge that the CS gas used on the children at Waco was a crime against humanity. It may in part have caused the compound to ignite.
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 14:27:58 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Gilead
Subject: Rules of Engagement
Message:
What's with you and movies? Christ, are you trying to prove a point by sending us to the movies? Please, Gilead, if that's the best you can do, save it, willya? I suppose you think JFK, Oliver Stone's little fantasy piece, was the gods-honest-truth, eh? Heh, heh. Make sure to look under your bed before you go to sleep tonight. You never know what could be lurking about. Heh, heh, heh.
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 20:01:45 (GMT)
From: Gilead
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Rules of Engagement
Message:
So I like documentaries, everybody has some hang ups. Didn't you always like going to the movies when you were child, and remember, Jerry, Mr. M. always talks about the 'simplicity like a child'. (Just agitating sarcasm!) ha ha ha
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Date: Tues, May 09, 2000 at 10:09:04 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Gilead
Subject: Rules of Engagement
Message:
Sorry, Gilead. I thought you were talking about Rules Of Engagement, the movie starring whats-his-name?, the guy from Pulp Fiction, but now I see that you're talking about Waco: Rules Of Engagement, which I did see. Yeah, it made me stop and think.

And I STILL like going to the movies. Saw a pretty good one friday night called The Gladiator. Don't expect too much from it and you'll love it. But I doubt it will feed any of your conspiracy theories :)

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 04:48:02 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Gilead
Subject: Rules of Engagement
Message:
A government wiretap placed during the 50+ day standoff recorded Koresh and followers discussing the pouring of kerosene and setting of fires in the compound.

That may have had something to do with the fire, too.

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 20:00:39 (GMT)
From: virginia
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: two tickets to paradise...
Message:
sorry i missed the party last nite, silly boys & girls..i was just wondering, since you are sooo interested in what's going on in 'maharaji's world'( now there's an oxymoran!), i'm sure one of you out there would know where i could get 2 tickets to one of the events!
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 02:46:19 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: virginia
Subject: Sheesh, you're a nasty one! (nt)
Message:
fhalhfglj
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 02:53:28 (GMT)
From: Baby Bell
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: This Silly Girl Obviously Has No Premie Friends nt
Message:
m
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 22:26:59 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: virginia
Subject: two tickets to paradise...You better have money...
Message:
to pay 'the costs' of the event. hahahaha
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 20:07:09 (GMT)
From: Baby Bell
Email: None
To: virginia
Subject: two tickets to paradise and back
Message:
Either call 818 889 0500 for info; or if you have a fax machine, call (from your fax machine) 918 222 7358 and follow the directions.
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 06:11:41 (GMT)
From: Jana
Email: None
To: Baby Bell
Subject: THATS A TEEN SEX LINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 17:49:38 (GMT)
From: Walt Whitman again
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Extra bonus!!!
Message:
Hey kids-pretty good work so far on your poetry submitted last night.Some of it's a bit rough, but all from the heart, as far as I can tell...
Just wanted to let you in on a bonus, for the poem that best captures the meaning of the following title:

My Stool is on your heart...

Let the games begin...

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Date: Tues, May 09, 2000 at 03:27:47 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Walt Whitman again
Subject: Poets crying for censorship?
Message:
'where the fuck am i?' she said to her pussy.

DUH!!
what a let down!

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 06:02:35 (GMT)
From: Andrew Loaf Oldham
Email: None
To: Walt Whitman again
Subject: Stool
Message:
My heart
My arse
You rule
Your stool
I trust
You push
I plead
You heave
My soul
Your hole
I long
So strong
You frown
So brown
You stop...
A plop
Its here !
I cheer
You gloat
It floats
In a word..
Its a turd
My soul
Your hole
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 02:03:35 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Walt Whitman again
Subject: Different title
Message:
not original, from a song

sad but true

I'm your life
I'm the one who takes you there
I'm your life
I'm the one who cares
They
They betray
I'm your only true friend now
They
They'll betray
I'm forever there
I'm your dream, make you real
I'm your eyes, when you must steal
I'm your pain, when you can't feel
sad but true
You
you're my mask
you're my cover, my shelter
you
you're my mask
you're the one who's blamed
do
do my work
do my dirty work, scapegoat
do, do my deeds
For you're the one who's shamed

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 19:13:50 (GMT)
From: P.T. Head
Email: None
To: Walt Whitman again
Subject: My Heart For Your Stool
Message:
Mourning son
and i am in love
i breathe in
to see this day
for you master
of my disaster

if that flower
and that worm
had a choice
would they too
not choose a red-eye to brazil
a land of many nuts
i have cracked for you
my beloved

i have cracked for you
and my gratitude for this chance
to digest in love
and know
my heart has become
your stool
at your thrown

(and i swear to fucking god if one person tells me how to spell throne!)
give
piece of peace
piece of piece
of shit

oh master can you cure my terrets
soon?

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 18:30:53 (GMT)
From: P.T. Head
Email: None
To: Walt Whitman again
Subject: Extra bonus!!!
Message:
I am a fool
for your pool
the thought of your stool
makes gerry drewl
is this too cruel?
if so let's duel
by the rule
that no mule
has the right to retool
your heart
my beloved
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 18:36:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: P.T. Head
Subject: Hey, there's a problem with that one!
Message:
It's not at all clear to my heart that that poem's coming from the heart. You know, I've listened to a lot of satsangs in my time, attended who knows how many video events, and I've never heard Maharaji rhyme 'tool' and 'mule'. Those are very simple words and one would think that if they were words of the hear the Master of the Heart would have used them (and used them and used them) by now. But he hasn't, so I have to wonder ....

Do you have Knowledge? Because if you don't I don't even know how they let you into this competition. This is all about the heart, get it?

Is there an usher around somewhere?

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 14:45:08 (GMT)
From: Fat Bastard!
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hello
Message:
Another piece of 'hate mail' from a premie, censored by the Forum Admin
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 15:29:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Fat Bastard!
Subject: Once again, is there an FA here or not? (??!!#)
Message:
You guys have a job to do. If you don't want to do it, if it's an inconvenience or something, do something about it and let someone else take over. But this idiot is clearly spamming me and if you don't want the forum to look like a gutter you have to act. Either that or tell me, for god's sake, that I'm wrong and that there's nothing impermissible about Gerry's foment.

Please!

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 19:20:50 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Once again, is there an FA here or not? (??!!#)
Message:
FA deleted my poem because I said pussy? What about FUCK!!?? Eh?
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Date: Tues, May 09, 2000 at 10:12:17 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Delelted Poem
Message:
Selene,

There's not usually any censorship of swear words here- unless they are part of a general abuse package.

Why don't you repost your poem?

Anth the lover of poetry.

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Date: Tues, May 09, 2000 at 18:46:07 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: what are you talking about?
Message:
I didn't write anything about any poem - huh?
\drinking at JHB's pub again ANTH? and w/o me again?
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Date: Tues, May 09, 2000 at 14:34:57 (GMT)
From: I'm SB
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Not Selene: Delelted Poem..I don't have it! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 20:05:20 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Once again, is there an FA here or not? (??!!#)
Message:
Some things get deleted for procedural reasons (i.e., they can't help it sometimes).
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 15:44:32 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: that wasn't me. nt
Message:
now who's jumping the gun?
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 01:03:30 (GMT)
From: WALT
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, there's a problem with that one!
Message:
Now Jim,let's not get too excited about judging the contestants and their work.
I think you started off nicely with your comments about the heart.That is what it's all about. However, you then plunged into an analysis of the tool/mule rhyming.While I agree with your insightful analysis, it's obvious that you went from your 'heart'into the 'mind' in making it. Remember, when one thinks, as you obviously had to do, you automatically go into the region we call 'mind'.
So, while the analysis was correct, you ventured into forbidden territory in making it, thus disqualifying yourself, as you were clearly at that point out of your 'heart' and in your 'mind'.
Nice try, just try and 'be in that place' a little bit more.

Uncle Walt

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 02:44:13 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: WALT
Subject: HA HA here's one fer ya, Walt
Message:
Darva Conger
was the chosen one
she thought she'd won the prize
It looked so good but her face turned red
Oh well, she'll pose for Playboy instead!

We were had but we should be stronga
Make some bucks like Darva Conger
Make some bucks, say what the fuck
Cash in when you're shit outa luck
(Sorry if this poem makes ya wanna upchuck)

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 18:52:56 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: serious?
Message:
you know pthead is me or? i don't get it...
you're playing the knowledge game?
you're just being sarcastic? or?
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 06:20:27 (GMT)
From: L Cohen
Email: None
To: CONTEST
Subject: questioning the warm..........
Message:
...sssssstillness
.....llove..
.....devotion....
.....gratitude...
.....sssstillnesssss..

.....doubt
.....doubt
.....caution
.....perplexed
.....outraged
.....free

smile

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 19:13:44 (GMT)
From: cq (aka granpa/ma hanky)
Email: None
To: L Cohen
Subject: Sounds like you'r just going through the motionsNT
Message:
Sounds like you'r just going through the motionsNT



Forum Admin. can we get longer subject lines back?

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 18:58:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Serious? You've got to be kidding! (nt)
Message:
jj
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:30:51 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Cozy Family Feeling
Message:
I couldn't resist. I saw this heading for a thread at a message board and the thought of it here just cracked me up; especially with Gerry's latest posts.

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:35:25 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Cozy Family Feeling
Message:
Yes we are one big happy family aren't we? But hey no one here is threatening to sue another one here just for expressing themselves. Well, not that I know of...gee, maybe there were a few threats along those lines ...well, never mind!
BUT
This is a far HEALTHIER family than my premie family of the 70's, as crazy as the forum might be! But, cozy it's not! Can't get too comfy here, the flames will scorch your butt!
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:37:19 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Cozy Family Feeling
Message:
Warm fuzzies to ya' Bay-beeee. I'm late for work. - dg
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 13:32:45 (GMT)
From: Elaine B.
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Cult Awareness and Informatiom Center
Message:
At www.caic.org.au ---Could someone put a link for this?
Thought you'd all like this.
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:09:08 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Elaine B.
Subject: Cult Awareness and Informatiom Center
Message:
There's already a link to that site on the Links page. Thanks for suggesting it though :)
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 12:08:08 (GMT)
From: Stuart M
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: ...find what works for you - accept your journey
Message:
...the main point is that we are all alive to find the path that works for us. In the course of doing this, we probably get involved in some things that we later want to put down and let go of. That's life! That's the the human story. Black humour - dark irony - don't take it so much like you're a victim of anything! If you fall over - get up again and carry on with you're journey.
I enjoy practicing Knowledge... but it dosen't bother me at all that this site exists... I even recommend it to people that I tell about M & Knol. It is a useful place for people to mirror fears, guilts, doubts and insecurities. So keep up the work!
(but don't forget...the real point is to find what works for you)
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 08:00:16 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Stuart M
Subject: Bicycle parts for lunch
Message:
I think it's good you are able to recommend this site. I appreciate that. However, I can't reciprocate and recommend M's knowledge to people if who want it. I tell them to look anywhere but to M, or consider attempting to learn the same techniques, if desired, without a guru. Mind you, that's assuming they are convinced that there's something to it and that they want in on it. I feel a responsibility to talk them out of going to M, and that's based on my experience.

But if that's what you do and you like it, it is ultimately your biz.

Good luck if you ever feel like getting out.

I don't hear you as having as much attitude as others seem to (and not that I don't hear any attitude), but all the same, I don't think you know what you're talking about.

FYI, I do enjoy meditating, but I need M'ragey like I need to eat bicycle parts.

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 23:22:20 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Stuart M
Subject: Your sad post
Message:
Your post is a perfect example of the most appalling drival imaginable.

First off, you invoke the 'we' word. This is always symptomatic of the same ol' sad cult mentality. Always best to speak for everybody else, huh, after all you know best we all need don't you? We should do this and we should do that and we should do the fuckin' hokey cokey an' shake it all about.

Second off, what's all this 'path' shit. Just because you've dreamed up a nice little spiritual fantasy in your head with a little path an' a nice little journey that ends somewhere over the rainbow doesn't mean fuck all. That's the trouble with spiritual metaphors and analogies, they just lead from one to another mutating and gathering momentum. Before not too long you got a full blooded religion festerin' in your head with all the bells and whistles. Just like the one you got. You know, with the paths, masters, knowledges, serviles et al.

Then whaddya do. Start givin' out advice. Don't be a victim and shit. Jezz get up, dust yourself off and carry on your little journey along your little path. How quaint, how fucking patronising. That's one thing that makes me laugh about premies. They just can't get out of the habit of givin' out bad advice after bad advice. Who do you think you are? Francis of fuckin' Assisi.

So you enjoy practising knowledge. Well, bully for you. Just had to let everybody know you're doin' the right thing didn't you. Go tell your boss 'bout it. Put an announcement in your local newspaper. Get it up on the net. Get your own fuckin' site. Don't fuckin' tell the X's. They ain't interested. Didn't you know?

Of course it doesn't bother you that this site exists. Well it fuckin' should. Maharaji has said he doesn't want premies like you reading this site. Or don't you do what your lord and master says these days? What about 'syncronisation,' huh? I'm sure he'd be well pleased with you directing pre-knowledge neophytes here to get a balanced view of things. I bet that'd spice the 'question session' up a bit. 'Er, Maharaji, over on the ex-premie website it says you're a drunk and an adulterer, will this affect the order I do the techniques in or what?'

'Fears, doubts, guilts and insecurities.' What the fuck are you talkin' about. I don't see anybody quakin' in their boots, riddled with doubt, plagued by guilt or beset with insecurities. Anybody else? No, but YOU do. Why? Because you're a premie. Consequently, anyone or anything that presents any criticism of Maharaji has to be wrong or 'confused.' Or full of 'fears, doubts, guilts and insecurities' as you put it.

And lastly off. Who fuckin' says the point it to find what works, etc? I'll let you into a secret, dumbo. There are vast, teeming armies of human beings who ain't lookin' for jack shit. Know why? They ain't plagued with the same disease you got. The illness of the 'seeker.' They know what works. They don't need you or any sickly smiley premie to tell them what they need to be OK. They already got all they need. But you'll keep on handin' out your second hand advice till you drop. 'Cos you don't even think about what you're doin'. You're on automatic. PROGRAMMED, with a capital 'P'.

Off you go now, down your little path. Watch out for the big bad wolf.

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 03:05:11 (GMT)
From: Francis of Fuckin' Assisi
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: You Go, Coach (nt)
Message:
m
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 02:04:41 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Coach: ****BEST**** Granted!
Message:
The best I have read in a long time, JIM?
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:38:09 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Stuart M
Subject: You selfish premie!!
Message:
What happened? You forgot to think critically? You do not understand what we are doing here!!?? Don't know how to read, eh?

We are here to unmask The Lord of the Universe!! The protector of child molesters!! The one that in the 70's told us material things were nothing, to later become a living materialistic, dope head, adulterer, lier king, sorrounded by servants!! Also, we are here because we care about the ones who comitted suicide, because they wouldn't bare that they couldn't find out what the Lord was talking about...

You are the type that if standing watching a murder happening you would justify it...right? All is a matter of taste, eh?Maharaji murders people, because he takes away their individuality and right to think!! You should go shopping:You don't have one....You think and speek as he taught you...You think Lard is honest???? Think again... All his jokes were about you, premies, not about us, people 'without K... You have invisible chains, but I can hear them...How? I heard mine before...

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 02:19:22 (GMT)
From: Gilead
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: You selfish premie!!
Message:
SB,
I wonder how many of your ideas are original, and how many are a brainwash from your Western education and the media? Do you see President Fidel Castro as a demon, even though he threw out the US supported tyrant, a mafia thug, who was exploiting Cuba? If you say yes, he's a demon, or a dictator, etc., then your ideas come from the New World Order of Capitalism, run by Tel Aviv, London, and of course, Washington DC.

Lets take another example. What do you think of Libya and its leader, Muammar Al Qathafi? A terrorist? If you say yes, then again, this thought is based on the lies and propaganda of the evening news and the controlled newspapers of the New World Order.

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 11:58:27 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Gilead
Subject: Excuse me butting in here...
Message:
... but what has your grilling SB about political beliefs got to do with her 'you selfish premie' post?

(Moreover, why should every post demonstrate 'original' thought? Yours doesn't.)

I can't see any hint of brainwashing in SB's post. Are you suggesting you can? If so, what?

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:23:22 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Stuart M
Subject: There's that ACCEPT word again.(nt)
Message:
except
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:30:09 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: There's that ACCEPT word again
Message:
That's right, just accept everything, don't push the river, go with the flow, relax release relate, let it be, blah blah blah.

God forbid we should evaluate or (horror of horrors) JUDGE anything, and in a public forum too!

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:33:03 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Oh, Helen, where did I go wrong with you...
Message:
if you listen to your heart...you'll know the truth. -dg
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:37:02 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Listening to my heart
Message:
My heart says I should drink a bunch of that good Bourbon Jean Michel was talking about and run off with that sexy Bosnian guy on E.R. Should I do it, Daneane?
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:46:18 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Listening to my heart: he is doing it...
Message:
you can do it too, no? In one of his 'speeches' -bs- he said that people rather shyntetize themselves with alcohol than to think about their lives....how does he knows that? He does it all the time...gets drunk and goes around the residence singing, I'm king...looking at the little servants working...Pathetic!!

Amaretto is ok with me... Jm brought me a bottle and I love it!!

hahahaha...is so much fun to be an ex!! Much funnier than being a brainwashed premie... I LOVE IT!! Thanks everybody again for being here: Your posts help me see the light alright!! Lard is a fake and exes know it!!

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:32:12 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Daneane....
Message:
'Accept' this knowledge, Daneane, NEVER leave room for doubt in your mind, accept this beautiful experience, forget about your own ambitions, become a happy zombie, never question anything, it's fun!(NOT)
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:34:38 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Sure, as long as you bring the beer.(nt)
Message:
Burb
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 12:30:26 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: Stuart M
Subject: ...find what works for you - accept your journey
Message:
Do you enjoy your master? What do you think of all his wealth?

To me, he is a

SKUNK

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 12:24:23 (GMT)
From: Elaine B.
Email: None
To: Stuart M
Subject: ...find what works for you - accept your journey
Message:
Stuart,
You're up early. This aught to be fun to see the responses to your post.And how often do you see 'aught' in print? So you're new here?
Elaine - Oh,and I agree.
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 15:17:19 (GMT)
From: Premie Elaine
Email: None
To: Elaine B.
Subject: You agree with him or with us?? Just curious....nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 19:40:09 (GMT)
From: Elaine B.
Email: None
To: Mystery person
Subject: You agree with him or with us?? Just curious....
Message:
Well, I don't know why anyone would care,but I had to go back and read Stuart M.'s whole post again carefully and thoughtfully
and yes I agree with him.
You gotta find what works. That is not to say I don't understand ex's anger,betrayal feelings,hurt. It is a process as I've said before. I would only HOPE that one day the anger would turn to something else and each ex can not be as involved with the many bad feelings that are expressed here.
I just want everyone to be happy. I don't care in the least if someone follows GMJ or receives Kn thru him or his org.
I don't even care if you rag on him. I honor your feelings. You have a perfect right to have them.
They don't happen to be my feelings,but so, what's new.

How come you didn't identify yourself? Like to know who cares about my opinion. Doesn't happen often.
Elaine B.

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 01:45:45 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine B.
Subject: It was me Elaine
Message:
HI~

Just throwing a question...Not attempting to be misterious...

You said:

You gotta find what works. That is not to say I don't understand ex's anger,betrayal feelings,hurt. It is a process as I've said before. I would only HOPE that one day the anger would turn to something else and each ex can not be as involved with the many bad feelings that are expressed here.

So, it means that you understand us Exes, but still think that Mahalard has the right to spread his lie! He can snatch from somewhere some meditation techniques and say that he is going to save the world because he is The Lord of the universe and now all changed, and all will be alright, and nothing happened??? The anger already TURNED TO SOMETHING ELSE... what do you think coming here is, beside the fun of it... Something POSITIVE already is happening: This site showed ME the light, Elaine!! I woke up thanks to what I read in this site....Me, who thought I was above all....sure of my feelings for Lard...I came here and found my freedom....Me, educated person, who didn't bother to read deeply about cults, found one, The Biggest: The Lord of the universe!!!!! Common now... Do you follow me?

When you say I just want everyone to be happy. I don't care in the least if someone follows GMJ or receives Kn thru him or his org. says a lot... it's what I thought... You do not care who Mahalard is or what he does....Flaky premie beautiful answer! Always the middle...such a loving position to be at; I remember being like you... I hope you dig further. Lard is a thief....He went from Lard of the universe to A friend; A very Special Friend; The messenger; Should I continue? How can you think the way you do....Look, look at his records!!!

See that is more than anger and dissapointment? In me is a need now to be here, to witness both sides, and sure, premies talking the way you do make me feel like puking...no personal offense here: Is not totally your fault!! We were his victims!! I tried to stay away for few days and realized that I still need to hear about it... BUT: Your justifications are just that, justifications...ME? I have many rights but my morals determine my final actions, not just the law...Premies don't know in what they are participating, and that makes Lard's actions inmoral, in my book... Bondage of the mind, with him... I have a very big problem with the tactics, dirty that is, how new people are recruited...I said it in another post, I was the aspirant contact of 'my community' . . . . . PUKE to the old me...so embarrasing! No. Gurus like him should not exist in my opinion! What came first the chicken or the egg? God incarnated, of course!! You are just hanging around him, eh?

Oh yeah, you CAN believe what you want...what can stop you?...Is just like that: A belief . . . . spread . . . . that we are lost and out of track: Is it very difficult to be just human? To do what feels good? I said this in a simplistic way but you get my point, right? That is if we are talking about people with human characteristics! It wouldn't apply to SUPER PEOPLE....Today I do not have a need to be all the 'things' that Lard told me I should be to be happy: Lord of the Universe he still believe he's...but I'm not his devotee. Have you noticed?? Have you read enough? What do you believe of yourself? You being, however, involved with maha? Hal is right: You do not need him...he made you belive you do, but you simply don't!

One more thing: He made fun of me for twenty some years...who knows how many more years I will enjoy being here, talking against him to others?? I hope many more... This site needs to exist!! and recognize it: Do you know what laugh does to your brain? Wonders! I'm having fun, fun that comes from my understanding and total conviction of what I am saying...and from what other exes give too....

Take care....OT: where is carol? Is that you, with a new name?

S

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 02:07:57 (GMT)
From: Elaine B.
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: SB and Stonor
Message:
I could never respond to both of you quickly. Will print yours out SB and re-read as I already did Stonor's 1st post.You put so much into it but you seem to want answers or explanations.That will not be quick-want to give your posts justice.
Didn't know you came here originally,SB, as a premie. Interesting. Didn't Hal also. And didn't know what 'non-anything' was that I saw Stonor use before. More spices in the stew is all.
Your's SB was at first so intense, but thank you for peppering it with ' no personal offense here' it actually does make it sound less hurtful.
Back later.
Elaine.
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 03:26:07 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine B.
Subject: Sorry Elaine...
Message:
I'm dealing with my emotions the best I can... but there are things that need to be said. The topic is rather volcanic to me...It's nothing wrong with expressing anger against Lard: Look what some us went through... or make fun of him: The fake$#%@^&&* deserves it!!

I didn't try to hurt you or any other premie... I do not criticize YOU, but your ideas...I had them...It makes me angry and embarrased to remember that!

Yes, I haven't written yet a journey, but what do you think is going to be there when I finally write it? Roses?

Yes, I believe Hal began posting as a premie...Hal? I never posted as a premie though: I came for few months to read, to criticize, so I thought. To my surprise, I was confronted here with the challenge to have to look at MY OPINIONS logically, without My beliefs and devotion...and what I saw was the truth. I had all that cultish thoughts that began when I was very young, and I trully wished I never met Mahalard!! I cannot say that I'm thankful for the influence he had in my life at all...I'm mad at myself too, for allowing that to happen. I believed him...and I say this remebering always that he lied to me!!!! I guess it matters too the intensity of the 'serving', called these days involvement or participation... I did my share of that too!! This can explain more why some Exes are angrier than others? I left about September of last year, but I contemplated my doubts for longer than that. I stopped 'slaving' long before that too...Somebody suggested in another thread that somebody gets a Plant Guru...worship the plant...even if looks insane, it could give the same results...???? Yeah! God incarnated is more appealing...

I feel like puking remebering me...mainly...Yes, I came 'to hate' premie's talk....

The best for you!

SB

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 18:14:34 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: It's ok SB
Message:
I will be the first one to understand your need to express anger.
My wish would be that you could see in your mind that these premies here are future exes.
In any counseling 101 - the 1st thing you learn is when you attack (blame usually,name-call etc) the other person doesn't hear anything after that. So,the purpose - which was to communicate and be understood and probably ultimatly to get what you want - won't be happening. It's a self-defeating thing. A set up,really, for failure.

I read your post to someone above - do you know what the only thing I remember about that post - the meanness of the word 'stupidity' you used. I wonder what the recipient remembers. That is a hurtful word. I don't think you mean to hurt people deliberatly. I know you're angry and it kind of spills out. But, if you reflect and get clear about your higher intentions here - you may form your words better that's all. And try it in your personal 'real' relationships. Not presuming you don't. But if your married and get into a fight. It's fun to watch how you can get what you want by NOT pointing a finger and blaming right from the start.
Please, don't be mad. Someone had to tell me this stuff,too,once.
Thank you for your post.
God,when am I going to find the time for Stonor.
Elaine

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 19:26:45 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Thanks for 'your therapy'...not!
Message:
Elaine:

You talked about me in all your post?? What about you? What do you think about your guru Mariachi?

Yes!! Stupidity is a word that applies to the beliefs carved by Mariachi in prmeie's brains, IMOP!!! Too bad that ofends you...Yes, you can say that my posts are aggressive: It's true!! There is where I am today, and I accept that... Thanks for the 'suggestions' AND ADVICE.... Not that I needed it... No need to reply...keep on breathing..

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 19:51:48 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Thanks for 'your therapy'...not!
Message:
Oh,brother.

Sigh

Bye,
Elaine

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 07:04:37 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Wow S.B. That was magnificent ! I love that fiery
Message:
Latin temperament of yours. I think I'm falling in love !
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 13:36:24 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Sarcastic? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 18:19:34 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Sarcastic? No way ! Loved it truly. nt
Message:
sg
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 21:37:33 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Elaine B.
Subject: There are always more than two choices . . .
Message:
Hi Elaine - sorry I couldn't get back to you on the other post, but I've been putting long days in on the garden (finally). This place has been moving quickly lately.

I agree that 'accepting your journey' makes sense, but what does it mean to accept it? I have had 'bad' things happen to me, and watched many bad things happen to other people. Too many times there is nothing I can do, but sometimes I've had choices to 'Let it and myself be,' or to do what I can to speak what I see as at least part of the truth, or 'do/not do' any number of other things. Without the 'mirror' of the others around us none of us would grow. Without others to say 'Wait a minute, this isn't OK and this is why!', how would civilization progress? But still m is in denial of his all too questionable past and present. This does not involve any aspect of meditation, which from my understanding is part of any serious 'path' in all 'paths' is not at issue here, but m as a 'religious leader,' who has neither addressed, nor allowed to have his personal responsibility towards those whose lives he asked to put into his hands, only to deceive, betray, abuse, deny, and ignore. As a non-anything, I can not begin to write about what affect m and others have had on some of their devotees'lives. Yes, find what 'works' in whatever you do, but take responsibility when you find something that violates and ignores human dignity, especially in a 'god' oriented area.

All religions divide. I've been out of every 'loop,' and believe me, as soon as you think you've found 'THE' path, the sooner you've lost it (IMO). There have been so many 'sources' of KNOWLEDGE for me and others, and I'd like to think that we could at least recognize this reality. There are Wise people all over this planet, but not all do the anti-Zen thing and turn 'it' into a (personal) highly lucrative business (with malleable reality). This is another level that says 'Just say NO!' (to m). I've also noticed that my 'friends' who are part of 'religions/cults' generally view anyone who is not part of their mindset as 'lesser.'

I have meditated in a variety of contexts and learned a variety of breathing practices, postures, mantras, and other meditation techniques (no, not the tongue thing, and my reaction was comparable to Raina's - and if you check out (or received) the old version k, that funny wooden stand struck me as odd. Occam's Razor says 'huh?') And the threats Elaine, and the substance abuse problems . . . how can you stay a premie, and why?

IMO, people here do not fall into a pattern that could be represented as 'us.' (You agree with him or with us??, anymore than all premies and premies' experiences do.

What also really concerns me on a more general level, is first all of extreme 'dogma' 'religions,' and secondly all of our culturally received dogma, just about no matter where or what our upbringing. And other levels/aspects.

Stonor

PS, I am not mystery person.

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 19:14:43 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Stonor,SB,Susan...Stuart,Mel....
Message:
Stonor,
Accepting your journey,remember doesn't mean to just sit back and do nothing. Your decisions and choices ARE part of the journey. Learning to trust in ourselves is very much a part of our paths.
I'm responding,to your sentence above. Sorry I didn't quote it here. I'm not some philosopher, but you did seem to ask me, didn't want to ignore you. Your ques could have just been rhetorical.

'Without the 'mirror' of others around us none of us would grow.'

I kept going back to that sentence. Then realized it was bec it didn't ring true to me. I find that my own conscience makes me grow. Many times wise friends say nothing to me about a mistake I've made. I know what I've done and grow from it. Not even a look of disapproval fr another was given to me.

If 'Maharaji is in denial of his questionable past and present'...I have to be honest...I don't know what mission Prem Pal Singh Rawat was sent on when his little soul picked his family to be born into. It is very fascinating.
It is entirely possible he was sent here or chose to come here with the purpose of telling thousands in the 70's to go inside for peace. It is entirely possible he has strayed fr that purpose and got entangled with American temptations. Or not.
Who can know. One thing is for sure,Stonor,I truly trust in 'everything will come out in the end'. I am a premie that is probably a 5 on the scale someone came up with above.
I don't give him money,don't progagate anymore,go to a program when it is convenient.My experience does not 'depend' on GMJ as others have claimed a true premie believes. I have said before. Kissing the Lotus Feet isn't going to be my salvation. A true premie may think that,just as a true Christian believes simply by believing 'on the Blood of Christ and that He is the Messiaah'
will be their easy ticket to Heaven.

So how can I ' stay a premie'? I'm sorry - I don't now what you mean by threats? Substance abuse? I've said bef - I am very tolerant and patient and forgiving. I don't know what this path of illusions is all about. I don't think any drunk can be judged and thrown out bec they have a problem. What exactly IS their problem? That's the ques. Why, if true, is GMJ drinking.

Since I know now you aren't a premie - let me tell you some things so you'll know my frame of referrence...

Story: Gary Girard was a tall blonde premie that was one of three who originally brought M to the West - Eng-USA -'71? One day Gary was supposed to stand at the gate of the Malibu residence while M went out for the day. Gary being an original Californian - saw the surf on such a beautiful day. He decided to forgo his duty (service) and went for a surf. When he got back dripping wet - along comes GMJ returning. GMJ slapped him.
Then with his finger in the air said, 'I didn't slap you bec you disobeyed me - I slapped you bec you feel guilty.'

Ok, purpose of story,Stonor I don't know - but there is a history w/ GMJ - and it's not all betrayal and lies and drinking.
I learned things from him. Was inspired fr him. If his direction has changed I will be slow to change myself. But I WILL change.
As you can see I'm not the premie that most know here. I pride myself on that.

And Stonor in your long post? I just can't discuss with you big issues like your last paragragh. It is so worthy of discussion. Can we bring it up later. I find I have an intelligent, non-angry person to talk to. I can finally relate. Anger is no way to communicate,do you agree?

You little Dicken's - when my friend w/ 7 children yells at her kids instead of saying,' GODDAMN IT you little brats...' - she'll say lovingly like, an angel - 'You little Dickens' - I thought that Hal had snuck in and tried to trick me. Term of affection.
Looking forward to other non-angry discussions,
Elaine B.

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 19:39:36 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Elaine, please: Read your post two...
Message:
or three times at least. Would you?? Pathetic!!

Those are your thoughts?? Before you continue to talk about others why not find out about you? What are your motives for saying what you say about Mariachi... You may as well be deaf...

Your story about Gerry Gerard was very moving... Slap here, slap there...HE is sooooooo loving!!! hehehehe

Love,

SB

PS: For other of your posts I would add this: I have a very nice relationship with family, kid/s, friends,etc... Now are you reading between lines too? You think I'm a bitter person? Think again...I like to have fun as much as I can and I'm involved in a lot of volunteer community work, related to the enviroment and homeless people...I DO have a life, and happy, get it? hahahaha...the mind....of premies... I just THINK that Mariachi should go out of businnes...Period!

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 23:34:28 (GMT)
From: irregular anon
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: this coming from someone
Message:
Who was never a premie or struggled exiting from M's cult?
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 00:29:27 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: irregular anon
Subject: and your point?
Message:
irregular anon?
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 07:21:49 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: and your point?
Message:
'irregular anon' is not me..I hasten to add. I guess I must be 'regular anon'?!
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Date: Tues, May 09, 2000 at 21:36:12 (GMT)
From: Annon
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: and your point?
Message:
'irregular anon' is not me..I hasten to add.'

- Me neither!

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Date: Tues, May 09, 2000 at 21:42:32 (GMT)
From: Anonymous
Email: None
To: Annon
Subject: and your point?
Message:
Hey..
who ARE these guys?
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 21:25:51 (GMT)
From: Little Yiddish Grandma
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: so glad to hear...
Message:
you're regular now! I knew that prune recipe of my grandmother Zeitle would do the trick!
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 12:10:33 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: How did you guess, Anon!!! :-)
Message:
Of COURSE you're Anon and the other is some new irregular anonymous poster who doesn't know I've already been raked over the coals on this at least 4 times in the last few months!

Thanks for dropping by to clarify my point to 'irreg anon' about anonymous posting - he/she seems to be ignoring anything else I've said now . . . it can get so boring and predictable at times.

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 19:55:13 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Elaine B.
Subject: Elaine B
Message:
Elaine B I must say you fascinate me!

You are an extremely moderate premie,

I take it you meditate daily?

And enjoy that quiet time , just like me,

Why do you still need Miragey?

Isn't it time you broke free?

It's yours my dear

Your birthright, have no fear,

Being involved with him will cost you dear!

You've paid your dues in full now

Escape the prison , You'll say WOW!!

I'm free from the fake Miragey!!

LOL HAL

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 20:30:09 (GMT)
From: Elaine B.
Email: None
To: Hal and maybe Susan
Subject: For Hal
Message:
Hey Hal,
That was you - you little dickens.
Hey you'd love this I'm sure. Wanted someone that could appreciate this ( maybe).

OK picture it - today,sun shining sitting in a neighbor's back yard...she's an old friend and a practicing premie. Three of her friends are receiving k in LA.
The other day she says something about the light I say we'll have to talk about that later - it's later now.
I ask her what her experience is of this thing SHE called light.
Her,' Well,I'm in it right now.'
OK so when you do the actual technique what could you say about it- can you describe it...
Her, ' I feel the light - like right now.' Uh-huh
So does the term 'Light of ten thousands suns' mean anything to you?
Her,'Well,I don't see that - no.'.....'Well yes I have.'
When?
Her,' I don't know.' Uh-huh
I look at the sun and point and say you've seen a sun brighter than that IN YOUR head but you don't remember when?
Her,'Well,no I don't see light like that.' Uh-huh.
I said well someone recently on this forum said something about seeing a 'donut'.
Her,' Oh well, I've seen the donut - to focus better sometimes I'll squeeze my eyes and see that donut for ten seconds. But Kn is the FEELING - I feel peaceful and calm and connected to GOD.'
(NOT GMJ - this is God she's saying)

OK that done..I go to Holy Name...
She says,' Well, Holy Name or Knowledge - Holy Name IS Knowledge.'
OK, what could you tell me about your experience of Holy N that is KN.
Her,' Well,I focus on my breath '...then she describes the feeling of calm and feeling connected to God.
OK can you describe it more what does it FEEL like.
Her,' Like I'm connected to GOD.' Uh-huh
So you feel the peacefulness of breathing?
Her,'Yes, and connected to God.'
I tell her she is obviously a very peaceful person. Thank you.

Sigh.

I say again. Premies don't know how to meditate. They don't experience much. They settle for so little.
I'm not an instructor, but I can tell someone what to shoot for.
There IS a light bright like the sun in your head.
(OH,she doesn't hear music - alittle hum,she says.)
There IS celestial MUSIC/HARMONIES inside you.
And Holy Name. It ain't your breath and how peaceful it feels going in and out. It's much much more.

Now nectar - that's my downfall. Never tasted it. But DOING it is like sex. Sensual,enlivening,centering,energizing - I love the technique is all. Kept me energized thru a whole symphony
last week. Was sure to fall asleep otherwise.
OK enough,
ElaineB.

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 22:15:13 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Elaine B.
Subject: Sorry, I know it's 'For Hal'
Message:
Interesting post Elaine! That's what I keep saying. Just because I've never received k doesn't mean I have no knowledge of it! I've been wanting to discuss how no one talks about feeling connected with God, but for me that is only the first step. Then what do you do with it? The goal can't be just to feel good or calm or whatever, and some people get this feeling in contexts outside of more formal meditation as well. Have you read G's post about quantum metaphysics. The link there isn't the only person who is exploring these ideas.

Stonor

(You 'little dickens?')

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 12:23:20 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Stuart M
Subject: Who needs a guru?
Message:
the real point is to find what works for you

I finally found out that there is no need to have a gooroo in my life!

It actually works much better without him!! I hope you'll finally discover this for you one day ....

it dosen't bother me at all that this site exists...

Looks like some other premies (and your 'master') don't share your views ....

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 02:20:44 (GMT)
From: Gilead
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Jean-Michel, Can I Be Your Guru?
Message:
Lighten up, man!
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 01:44:59 (GMT)
From: james flynn
Email: not given
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Who needs a guru?
Message:
That is right, Meditation and Prayer work just as well with-out the middleman. The spirit is within us and all things, no one person has exclusive rights to bottle it and sell it to the public. Yes we do need to find our own path. Our own path! Not some prefabricated,pre- packaged, commercial BS. Our own path with-out the vulgar 'spiritual' sales people.
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 02:22:15 (GMT)
From: Gilead
Email: None
To: james flynn
Subject: Will You Accept Me for Darshan?
Message:
Hey Jimmy, Lighten up! Everybody's entitled to their own opinion!
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 03:30:22 (GMT)
From: Is James Flynn Jim?
Email: None
To: Gilead
Subject: Seriously...nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 06:42:48 (GMT)
From: virginia
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: i don't get it...
Message:
you say you're x-premies; yet you've DEVOTED an entire site to maharaji! it's beyond me! the big-bang theory would be more interesting. actually i don't mind, i like the pictures and i get all best info..keep it up silly boys and girls!
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 16:06:22 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: virginia
Subject: i don't get it...
Message:
So try this...

'To be, or not to be that is the question. Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing, end them.'

If that's too secular and modern for you, check out the Upanishads.

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:20:14 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: virginia
Subject: i don't get it either, Virginia
Message:
You enjoy lurking (you get all the best info here), but when you finally post you have nothing to say except that you are still clueless...

Maharaji gives 'free' knowledge, yet he's gotten rich on your premie stupidity in the process...

Premies get involved in the cult because they want to understand themselves, yet they DEVOTE their entire lives to Maharaji...

Maharaji has DEVOTED an entire website to self-promotion, yet it is totally lacking in the information that is freely available on a site created and supported by those who renounce him as the fraud that he is...

Oh well, you can still look at the little pictures - even if you are unable to see the big one...

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:50:09 (GMT)
From: Super Brat
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Brian: You are a genius!! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 13:51:30 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: virginia
Subject: i don't get it...
Message:
Let's see, we're silly boys and girls and yet you get all the best info here. I don't get *you*. Are you one of those conflict-phobic premies who like to remain as an unsullied lotus blossom while secretly devouring the info here with relish? If so, then you are a very naughty boy or girl for scolding us.
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 12:54:27 (GMT)
From: Who me?
Email: None
To: virginia
Subject: i don't get it...Do you? Nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 07:02:55 (GMT)
From: FaroutRockhouse
Email: None
To: virginia
Subject: i don't get it...
Message:
virginia
are you near any gin?
first of all, you have no right.
well nevermind.
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 08:12:05 (GMT)
From: babaganoush
Email: None
To: virginia
Subject: do we know you?
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:27:21 (GMT)
From: Hummus pita bread
Email: None
To: babaganoush
Subject: do we know you?
Message:
Do I know you? Didn't I see you next to my sister olive oil on the buffet table last night? Are you friend or foe?
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 08:16:27 (GMT)
From: virginia
Email: None
To: babaganoush
Subject: do we know you?
Message:
not unless you're psychic!
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 15:18:48 (GMT)
From: Virginia is right!
Email: None
To: virginia
Subject: You saw one, you saw them all!!
Message:
All cutted by the same BS.
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 07:27:43 (GMT)
From: virginia
Email: None
To: FaroutRockhouse
Subject: i don't get it...
Message:
personally, i prefer margaritas,,,on a steamy..in a nice long glass... the taller the better...with a lot of crushed ice..
why don't you go and jerk yourself something.
by the way, are you an 'in'ne or an audi?
or maybe you're something in between...
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 15:19:44 (GMT)
From: Your master taught you
Email: None
To: virginia
Subject: about drinking, eh? nt
Message:
nt just drinks!!
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 13:12:16 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: virginia
Subject: i don't get it...
Message:
personally, i prefer margaritas,,,on a steamy..in a nice long glass... the taller the better...with a lot of crushed ice..

I bet you enjoy that a lot more than practicing K. Don't you, Virginia? Come on, you can say so. This is the place where you do, where you confess your sins. 'Oh, God, forgive me. I know it's time to meditate, but what I'd really like to do is have a martini. Please forgive me!' I know how you feel. I've been there. We all have. C'mon, V, have a martini. Forget about K for tonight. Y'know, I'd bet that Maharaji might be doing exactly the same thing.

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 13:35:35 (GMT)
From: Elaine B.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: i don't get it...
Message:
You're not listening,Jerry. She likes margaritas. I'm sure marinis are too strong for a margarita lover.
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 08:05:44 (GMT)
From: virginia
Email: None
To: faroutRockhouse
Subject: i don't get it...
Message:
personally, i like margaritas...on a nice hot steamy day...in a long tall glass with crushed ice...the taller the better..
why don't you go and jerk yourself something..
by the way, are you an 'in'ne or an audi..
or somewhere in between...
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 12:28:49 (GMT)
From: Elaine B
Email: None
To: virginia
Subject: i don't get it...
Message:
Oh, my God - at first reading I thought you told him to go jerk himself off. See what a difference a 2nd reading makes?You'll do fine here,virginia. New also?
Elaine
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 06:06:01 (GMT)
From: Walt Whitman....
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: New poetry contest announced...
Message:
Yes,I know you all thought I had passed away, but I'm back, at least in spirit..
I'd like to sponsor a little poetry writing contest, maybe even a little haiku as well, for all of you ex's with nothing better to do than to sit around and grouse about the old days...

Just submit those poems and I'll critique them for our own poetry section, to rival the one on ELK...

Gentlemen, start your engines...

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 13:35:36 (GMT)
From: James Flynn
Email: none given
To: Walt Whitman....
Subject: Poetry Contest 1st Entry
Message:
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz use you imagination and place these in any order.
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 06:38:53 (GMT)
From: P.T. Head
Email: None
To: Walt Whitman....
Subject: My Heart is Your Stool
Message:
The carpet is red
my flesh for your stew
turtle soup is for wingnuts
Janice please say i do
haiku
god bless
you
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 12:48:26 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: P.T. Head
Subject: My Heart is Your Stool
Message:
I feel like a piece of nothing
Your love is what I need
Because with it
I just forget about me

You are more than me
as I'll never be
your crown makes me jelous
can you give it to me?

Your money is a problem
but I love you anyway
I rather be poor myself
and give the greens to you
after all, you deserve it
Cause look at me...i'm so small
You are real, I'm a fake
You are a real Guru
I don't even exist

My mother says I'm stupid
but your mother knew that about you too
your head was spinng
when mata took off with yours
but don't you worry Daddy
I will never do that to you
because I'm your servant
until the day I die, for you

I know all smell fishy
Yesterday, today and then
But you got me from the balls firmly
I will never doubt, I had to say
I just squeeze my eye balls tightly
And sing all praise to you
because I rather be nothing
Than to live a day without you!

You master told me all was an ilussion
And I threw all material things away
I should have listen to Smith David
And have a Garage Sale
Is a way of making money, Smith said
And then, give the money to the King
King doesn't get bother with ilussion
In fact he wants more and more...indeed
He does that because he loves you...

Materal things bring suffering
Give them to me, King said
I can use them with Monica
Or to please the brats' egos too
Lets don't talk about Durgagi
How much it takes to shut her mouth
She is going shoping to Rodeo Drive
Monica and I? Playing at home
Today I'll be the mariachi
And she would play with her big boobs
They are bigger than Marolyn's
I need a mommy too.

We are a big disfunctional family
And that is alright too
Because without me I tell you
You may begin to be you
I have thought about it
And Darshan is what you need
To remind you as often as possible
Who is up and who is down, indeed
You all darlings are ceros
And that really counts
Because ilussion brings variation
And I have it and you don't!
David Smith has only two underwares
But who cares, he says
I love you dear God Mariachi
No matter who you are
I'm stupid as all the rest
Gurus come from India
We come from nowhere...
You can step on me master
is all David can say
It has become his mantra
Why don't you learn from him?

It all look terrible
But I promised I wouldn't doubt
Something tells me often
I'm wasting my life, he's a rat
The promise wins everytime
You taught me to love you
Oh, dear god...strange, but you are god indeed....
You have save me from my money
Now ilussion is gone
You have so much compassion
That you used it on yourself
Now you live in a mansion
And that's alright too
Being god you deserve it
You own everything anyway...No?

I'm nothing in the morning
But you 'gave me' my breath to follow
You knew how mad I'll get
If i find out you are so hollow

The breath keeps me always busy
So I don't have to think
and well, you have Monica's pusy
I hope it doesn't stink...
You are the lord after all
So pure I can't believe
I bet you poppo roses
Would you give one to me?


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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:13:10 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: My Heart is Your Stool
Message:
Bravo Bravo!! Brilliant, SB!

I loved all of it--very clever.

Here's one:

Narrowing one's mind to a pinprick
Focussing only on one thing
Ouch!! I was stabbed!
The one thing wasn't worth my time
What an embarrassment
Think I'll go to Walmart
or smoke a joint
Hey life is fun!

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 15:15:43 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: My Heart is HIS Stool too!
Message:
I love yours, and you know what part I like the most, don't you?

Shhhh....

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 04:42:34 (GMT)
From: P.T. Head
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: So glad to know you got the pun SB
Message:
oh! ya! a double entendre!
10 years later!
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 02:34:51 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: My Heart is HIS Stool too!
Message:
Hey SB
DOes M really go around the residence singing 'I'm King' in a drunken stupor? That's funny!!I'd pranam him just to see that!

Glad you liked the Walmart poem. I was trying to write a poem like my boyfriend in high school wrote for me. I just love it and I will never forget it:

'Free go I
Travelling the universe
Unencumbered by babysitting and cleaning up my room
Until I have to go home
And explain to my mother
Why I'm sooooo stoned.' That just about sums up my high school years, that's it in a nutshell!

Hope all is well with you. Send me your address so I can send you your stuff. Como es tu amour? Oh, something funny. I am editing a document that was originally a transcription and there are a few Spanish words in it. The transcriptionist thought the guy was saying 'Buenos Stardust' instead of 'Buenos Tardes.' Isn't that funny?
--Elena

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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 13:40:12 (GMT)
From: Elena
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: I have to answer this one by email..hahahaha nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 12:55:44 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: All
Subject: I didn't write that
Message:
Charanand forgot the poem at my home...
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 12:49:30 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: P.T.Head
Subject: Sorry, I needed your tilte! NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:09:59 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Sorry, I needed your tilte! NT
Message:
hi sb-
just curious to ask if there's any particular reason why you mentioned
David Smith?
(as opposed to others)
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 15:12:48 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Oh, David Smith...
Message:
maharahas' right hands, u know? Maha's connects with the outside world through him... The perfect devotee!! I can't stand the guy!! We had our personal encounters... I dare him to come here and talk to me: I even can tell him my real name!!

DAVID!!! WHERE ARE YOU???

HI RAINA!!

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 15:30:10 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: yup
Message:
ya i have a problem w/ david smith too
(i wrote the p.t. head's My Heart is a Stool bit...so it felt like you were talking to me in some way mentioning david ...whatever.....)

later!

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 15:54:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: All you guys are hilarious today
Message:
Really, I just got up to feed the cats. I'm going back to bed. But these poems are great. The implications of 'My Heart is Your Stool' are so funny. G'night ...
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 16:08:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: But you're going to have to try harder
Message:
Good work, girls, but then I go back to Janice and really, there's just that extra unctiousness. We're talking about elicting a strong, immediate gag reflex. It's got to be simple and it's got to be completely contrary to human nature. It might help if you went over to the gallery on ELK and looked at the picture of Janice with her premie friends. Can you make yourself look like that?

Look, I'm not saying I've got the answer or anything. I'm just trying to help. Now, really, g'night...

Oh, before I go, here she is again. Best of luck:

Good advice

Good advice I like to give myself everyday
To listen to my heart
To be in love with my heart
To do those things that will make my heart dance
Like listening to Maharaji
and practicing Knowledge
And participating
Because there are so many things I can do
that will make my mind dance
And really what do I want the
experience of my life to be ?
My heart dancing or my mind dancing
Having a heart full of bliss, gratitude, love
just feeling ultimate enjoyment
or fulfilling desires
that are limited by nature itself
Experience immortality or experience my mortality
What a choice !
The wise in me chooses the true
and the stupid in me just wants to stay stupid !
But I know who I really am
Thanks to Knowledge and Maharaji's teachings
I am my heart, I am this feeling of joy :)

Janice Wilson
Baldwinsville, NY, USA

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 05:30:12 (GMT)
From: Janice's friend
Email: None
To: JIM
Subject: check messages below for important info...
Message:
Hey Jim-you need to check two of the threads below, one from Regis Philbin, the other from his therapist , for important info., that could change your life, TODAY!
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 05:41:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Janice's friend
Subject: I couldn't love Janice 'that' way. She's a sister
Message:
Janice is a SISTER for god's sake! The way you talk it's as if you're suggesting that she doesn't just do the techniques after a video event and then go to sleep, as if something else is going on for dear Janice, something I'm really not willing to think about. No thanks.
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 05:50:49 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: janice is a nun?
Message:
'sister' soundz so 'culty' jim
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 05:52:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Ah Raina, you had to be there
Message:
Janice is a Happy Clapper. That's worse than a nun. It's like a singing nun.
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 05:56:42 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ah nothin'
Message:
i don't know what 'happy clapper' is but i laugh for 3 minutes...
i copped the peeping turtle head title for a few....
who was the original?
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 06:12:06 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: jim
Subject: I get happy clapper!!!! roflol
Message:
lololol
like from an opening scene from 'Marat Sade' or 'One Flew...' sort of character etc...right?
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 16:04:02 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: I get happy clapper!!!! roflol
Message:
Conjures up for me the type of nun in 'Airplane' - remember? - the one singing R-e-s-p-e-c-t ...? (after knocking the kid's intravenous drip out?)
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 17:00:08 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: more vivid by the minute!
Message:
or a seal on a G-4!
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 18:29:48 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: more vivid by the minute! Keep lookin!
Message:
Who gave Steve Jobs his Gulfstream?

Guess

Nya, nya na na nya ...!!!

Covetous? moi?

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Date: Tues, May 09, 2000 at 02:18:35 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: so computers could really cost less!
Message:
so if they junked the plane.....(G5!)....prices of computers would go down by about 1/3?!

think of all the poor children that must exist in the 'digital divide' because of Steve Jobs need to travel? Who does he think he is? What a selfish fuck! I say Gerry should have a GV too!

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 04:48:31 (GMT)
From: george chakaris
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: a hot night in the x premie room
Message:
remember the christian story
master leaves the flock
to go find the one lost sheep
which one of us feels like a lost sheep?
No...this isn't a sheep joke
although...I never met a sheep I didn't like..or
when men were men and sheep were afraid.
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 13:40:26 (GMT)
From: James Flynn
Email: not given
To: george chakaris
Subject: a hot night in the x premie room
Message:
why do Scottish men wear kilts?

cause the sheep can hear a zipper from a mile away!

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 17:57:35 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: James Flynn
Subject: a hot night in the x premie room
Message:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

...... now you aren't saying Rob is this guy??
I'd be crushed. No another internet obsession gone to hell????
SAY IT ISN'T SO.

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 04:54:09 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: george chakaris
Subject: shut up and go watch Neil Young on snl
Message:
He has and had a lot more to say than that stupid guru ever did.
good night.
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 05:00:52 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: shut up and go watch Neil Young on snl
Message:
HAH! Neil Young rules (even though Brian hates him).

Hope you get some sleep tonite, girl.
Love,
Katie

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 04:58:40 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: just a premie waste of space impersonating a sheep
Message:
Hi Selene. How goes it?
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 05:06:54 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Oliver and Katie
Subject: Hi!!
Message:
yeah Neil Young is the best ever.
I'm super, thanks for asking..
no fortunately I have come down from the 'super' week of manic
insanity. Kind of tired. It's nice. My husband has given up on me unfortunately and I am still waiting to feel sad about that (??)
For now, I am glad that I have my OWN feelings and thoughts, crazy though they may be. The sheep can stay in the meadow if they want but if they come over here and I am here in one of my moods, oh well!!!!!!!
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 05:20:00 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Mania sucks
Message:
One of my favorite quotes:
Bizarre realities can be rejected.
- Sally Carrighar

She wrote an awesome autobiography, which I will send to you. My ex was always seeking out 'bizarre realities' - how to tell him that I was sick of living in one?! It's easy for those who didn't grow up in one to think they are exciting.

I am sorry about Nick. Tauruses don't give up easily, so I'm guessing he has not given up completely.

Love you -
Katie

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:07:29 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Katie/Selene
Message:
Hey katie
That was a great post. Why do people romanticize bizarre realities? It's not that I want to be a suburban stepford wife, but a little stability (the little that I have) is a grateful change from my youth as well. Did you ever read the book 'In the Wild'? Talk about chasing a bizarre reality! The tragic hero in this true story worshipped Jack London and in trying to live out his romantic fantasy put his own body on the altar of Alaskan wilderness; little did he know London wasn't the arctic adventurer, but a gourmand and drinker who hung around his nice warm comfortable house dreaming up adventure stories.

Selene I meant to say Hi to you a few threads ago. Sorry to hear you had a rough night, and I don't know what to say about Nick, except if you love him, I hope what what you say is only a temporary thing. This sounds AWFUL but my husband's cancer has brought into focus how much I love him and we have stopped bickering so much. It's horrible that stuff like that has to happen to make us realize how much time is wasted proving who's right and wrong. Marriage is so difficult I am amazed that any two people can stay together, especially in this era of two career rush rush rush. Well Hang in there. I agree with you about Neil Young, but my husband hates him!

Helen

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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 17:58:59 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Hi Helene and I agree
Message:
Thanks Katie about the stuff about mania.
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 05:26:29 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Mania sucks
Message:
Thanks Katie. (still 10 min. to go til SNL) I don't wish living with me on anyone really. It's OK. and... I don't think it's a permanent thing.
of course premie ji up there would tell us nothing is permanent
....me, I wouldn't trade any of this working stuff out for a blind stupid fake 'nirvana'
gotta go catch Neil. Saw your AG post. Sorry you missed him.
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 06:08:52 (GMT)
From: george chakaris
Email: None
To: everyman
Subject: oh oh alabama
Message:
ooh ooh alabama
'heart of gold'
sweet judy blue eyes
mellow yellow
on the continent of Atlantis..
below the ocean....is where....i want to be..
he/ she may be.
two pm here in south beach
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 12:53:24 (GMT)
From: You forgot George to say.
Email: None
To: george chakaris
Subject: oh oh alabama, I'm a premie nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 14:09:21 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: George
Subject: oh oh alabama
Message:
Are you happy playing there all by yourself? Cause you sure aren't communicating too well!
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 15:08:39 (GMT)
From: Shhh Helen...
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: He is drugged by the LOVE...
Message:
he feels...now he is getting dizzy....he can't talk...well
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Date: Mon, May 08, 2000 at 02:50:48 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Shhh Helen...
Subject: He is drugged by the LOVE...
Message:
I am drugged...drugged by the love...the light...I can't speak, I can't put a coherent sentence together...I no longer need to speak, communication is a waste of this precious life....why bother....they don't understand my bliss,,,,,,,the light..go to the light
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Date: Sun, May 07, 2000 at 16:45:30 (GMT)
From: William Shakespeare
Email: None
To: Premies
Subject: He is drugged by the LOVE...
Message:

Sonnet 147

My love is as a fever, longing still
For that which longer nurseth the disease,
Feeding on that which doth preserve the ill,
Th'uncertain, sickly appetite to please.

My reason, the physician to my love,
Angry that his prescriptions are not kept,
Hath left me, and I desperate now approve
Desire is death, which physic did except.

Past cure I am, now reason is past care,
And frantic-mad with ever more unrest,
My thoughts and my discourse as madmen's are
At random from the truth, vainly expressed;

For I have thought thee fair, and sworn thee bright
Who art as black as hell, as dark as night.

I love the bit 'past cure am I, now reason is past care' - remind you of any cult victims you know? Obsessive love. Cultish love. Addictive love. False love embraced to excuse a person from dealing with their own, ah, 'issues'.

It still does not excuse the infected from working to pass on their disease. As they do...

JohnT (the piece is William Shakespeare's Sonnet CXLVII)

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