Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 15:30:51 (GMT)
From: May 15, 2000 To: May 23, 2000 Page: 3 Of: 5


Jean-Michel -:- One more website, and more concern for EV! -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 15:05:58 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Bravo Jean-Michel -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:37:30 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Bravo Jean-Michel -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:44:18 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Re:One more website, and more concern for EV! -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:29:35 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Re:One more website, and more concern for EV! -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 17:08:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Happy -:- very good -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 11:36:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Not very good for Rawat -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 14:15:47 (GMT)

Jim -:- How'd you like to be in this guy's shoes? -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 14:19:00 (GMT)
__ Ngel -:- Trying out the new vocabulary -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 14:33:21 (GMT)

Nigel -:- Knowledge itself is actually wonderful... -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 14:10:00 (GMT)

JHB -:- Pigs, dogs, horses, ducks and hens -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 00:21:46 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Hey you mis-spelled 'aerosols' -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 14:17:11 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- whatever you do - don't fall in the pig pen -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 03:35:04 (GMT)

Mr Bubblehead -:- Another story of the East, or was it of the West? -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 00:00:49 (GMT)
__ Spell check -:- Mr. B can spell, can you? 'Do not confuse . . .' -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 14:19:09 (GMT)
__ Way -:- morale of the story -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 18:05:35 (GMT)
__ __ Mr Bubblehead -:- morale of the story -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 22:42:25 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- morale of the story -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 20:06:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mr Bubblehead -:- morale of the story -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 22:48:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- morale of the story -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:35:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mr B -:- Life in the country. -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 02:49:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Life in the country. -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 10:32:53 (GMT)

Donna -:- I am the exgirlfriend of a 'knowledge person' -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 19:32:28 (GMT)
__ Happy -:- I am the exgirlfriend of a 'knowledge person' -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 11:17:41 (GMT)
__ An Old Hand -:- I am the exgirlfriend of a 'knowledge person' -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 08:12:54 (GMT)
__ PP? -:- Are you 'Pauline Premie'? -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 06:40:36 (GMT)
__ __ Pauline Premie -:- Are you 'Pauline Premie'? -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:29:19 (GMT)
__ TD -:- Hey, maybe we went out with the same guy.... -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 03:29:48 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- he got around didn't he TD? -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 04:03:47 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Maybe you weren't sincere enough -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 03:23:35 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- I am the exgirlfriend of a 'knowledge person' -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 22:35:14 (GMT)
__ Lotus Eater -:- I am the exgirlfriend of a 'knowledge person' -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 22:20:59 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- I am the exgirlfriend of a 'knowledge person' -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 21:41:07 (GMT)
__ zelda -:- I am the exgirlfriend of a 'knowledge person' -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 20:45:02 (GMT)
__ __ O -:- Thou dost generalize my dear zelda -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 23:36:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- Thou dost generalize my dear zelda -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 05:25:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ orb -:- This chick is scary! -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 17:40:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ DeProGram Anand JI -:- Thou dost generalize my dear zelda -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 11:42:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ JW -:- O, Love is NOT a battlefield...... -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 23:41:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ O -:- Oh but it certainly can be........ -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 00:50:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Come on O, be fair..... -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 01:07:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ O -:- Let's do..... -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 01:33:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Doesn't Make Sense to me -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 04:03:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ O -:- Ego is ego,spiritual or otherwise -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:49:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- The falsity of what it takes for personal growth -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 18:26:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ O -:- Personal growth is just that---personal -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 21:27:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Have you posted before under another name? -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:27:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ observer -:- Have you posted before under another name? -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:47:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Hi Obs -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 12:57:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Have you posted before under another name? -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 01:13:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ different name -:- so you get the boy scout badge for honesty -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 04:58:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Oh come on... -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 08:35:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ DN -:- Because it is a tactic -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 08:52:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- You can do a rough statistical overview... -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 14:48:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- rough statistical overview generalzed not -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 02:02:51 (GMT)
__ __ JW -:- Aren't these premies getting kind of old? -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 20:55:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- Aren't these premies getting kind of old? -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 21:10:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ jondon -:- Aren't these premies getting kind of old? -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 21:34:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ dv -:- There were whole premie houses of guys attracting -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 03:02:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- Aren't these premies getting kind of old? -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 21:33:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Aren't these premies getting kind of old? -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 03:46:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Aren't these premies getting kind of old? -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 03:34:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- Aren't these premies getting kind of old? -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 11:50:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- JW's last paragragh--Loved it!! nt -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 00:32:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gErRy -:- Aren't you being a little rash? -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 22:27:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- scizo Sundays remembered -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 04:12:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Isn't it Weird?? -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 22:51:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- last I heard.. -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 14:25:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Isn't it Weird?? -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 00:39:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ just breathing -:- Isn't it Weird?? -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 03:11:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Peaceful realm... -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 15:20:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ just breathing -:- Peaceful realm... -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:13:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Peaceful realm... -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:57:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gErRy -:- Deputy Dog's not married... -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 22:58:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Deputy Dog's is married... -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 03:07:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Thanks for sharing Dep... -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:18:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Aren't you being a little rash? -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 22:34:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Aren't these premies getting kind of old? -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 21:43:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Aren't these premies getting kind of old? -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 21:55:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- loner thing a bit old -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 05:47:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ zelda -:- Zelda to JW not JW to JW above NT -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 09:31:44 (GMT)
__ __ susan -:- ps to Zelda -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 20:54:22 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- I am the exgirlfriend of a 'knowledge person' -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 19:56:41 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- I am the exgirlfriend of a 'knowledge person' -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 13:42:08 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- I meant 'human' not 'himan'--sheesh -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 19:58:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- I meant 'human' not 'himan'--sheesh -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 13:57:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Hi Scott -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 20:25:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Hi Helen -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 03:40:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- cyclist forum -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 03:51:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- cyclist forum -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 05:44:36 (GMT)
__ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- I am the exgirlfriend of a 'knowledge person' -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 19:46:50 (GMT)

cq -:- Making sense of the experience -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 18:10:21 (GMT)

Way -:- To SB about Michael Moore -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 15:57:35 (GMT)
__ JW -:- To SB about Michael Moore -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 18:37:09 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Michael Moore and Detroit -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 20:12:35 (GMT)
__ red butler -:- heads will roll at the Divine Palace over this, -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 16:22:37 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- To SB about Michael Moore -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 16:09:56 (GMT)
__ __ Runamok -:- To SB about Michael Moore -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 16:17:34 (GMT)

Jim -:- Why? (a Question only for People with Knowledge) -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 15:47:36 (GMT)
__ annalee -:- Why? (a Question only for People with Knowledge) -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 02:43:03 (GMT)
__ sargent garcia -:- Why? (a Question only for People with Knowledge) -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 09:57:36 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Are we not men? -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 14:11:32 (GMT)
__ Lotus Eater -:- Why? (a Question only for People with Knowledge) -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 22:39:52 (GMT)
__ JW -:- Why? (a Question only for People with Knowledge) -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 18:45:51 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- Why? ( Question only for People Practicing Kn?) -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 17:41:46 (GMT)

Katie -:- M video giveaway -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 15:24:58 (GMT)
__ cq -:- M video giveaway -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 17:16:06 (GMT)
__ __ ged -:- M video giveaway -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 23:32:58 (GMT)

jondon -:- Finally watched LOTU -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 13:47:42 (GMT)
__ dan rather-check this! -:- Finally watched LOTU -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 15:04:32 (GMT)
__ I GOT MINE TOO -:- Finally watched LOTU -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 22:00:38 (GMT)
__ __ ET -:- I'm a LOTU Junkie -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 14:53:07 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- You are really gonna show it to premies? -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 13:52:02 (GMT)
__ __ X -:- You are really gonna show it to premies? -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 08:34:28 (GMT)
__ __ jondon -:- why not? -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 21:23:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- why not? -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 21:55:22 (GMT)

zelda -:- Sun yun Moon bought UPI??? -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 12:34:08 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- to Zelda (ot) -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 14:20:34 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- to Zelda (ot) -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 14:35:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- Peace B**b on the Love Boat -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 19:59:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Angry -:- Peace B**b on the Love Boat -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 20:17:09 (GMT)
__ dv -:- Sun yun Moon bought UPI??? -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 13:35:40 (GMT)
__ __ Runamok -:- More on Moon and Times -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 16:23:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ JW -:- Washington Times -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 17:36:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ zelda -:- Washington Times -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 19:43:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- LOL, Zelda, he and Homer Simpson (nt) -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 20:26:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Washington Times -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 19:40:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Washington Times -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 20:25:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Washington Times -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 20:36:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Washington Times -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 20:45:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Washington Times -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 21:19:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Washington Times, JW/Helen -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 03:21:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Washington Times, JW/Helen -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 03:54:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Ever Listen to Dr. Laura Schlesinger?? -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 23:33:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Ever Listen to Dr. Laura Schlesinger?? -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 11:18:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Helen, I'm interested.... -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 18:18:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Helen, I'm interested.... -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 20:37:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- More on Dr. Laura -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 01:34:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Good posts,Helen/Monmot (nt) -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 14:56:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- More on Dr. Laura -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:35:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- More on Dr. Laura -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 03:46:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- More on Dr. Laura -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 04:07:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- demon technology -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 02:50:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- demon technology--good name for it -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 05:10:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Ever Listen to Dr. Laura Schlesinger?? -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 02:24:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- she's a nice little Jewish girl (ot) -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 01:57:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- This is what I think -- Dr. Laura -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 03:51:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Re:This is what I think -- Dr. Laura -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 15:45:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- For Paramount, The Bottom Line Is The Bottom Line -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:52:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- For Paramount, The Bottom Line Is The Bottom Line -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 17:44:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- For Paramount, The Bottom Line Is The Bottom Line -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 17:55:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- This is what I think -- Dr. Laura -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 15:33:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- This is what I think -- Dr. Laura -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 15:39:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- This is what I think -- Dr. Laura -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:18:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- This is what I think -- Dr. Laura -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 00:20:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- This is what I think -- Dr. Laura -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:27:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Got it.Good point. (nt -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:35:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- This is what I think -- Dr. Laura -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 10:45:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ 2INCHROACH -:- Dr. Laura -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 08:04:13 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 15:05:58 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: One more website, and more concern for EV!
Message:
Here's the link to my new website.

No copyrights infringements ....

I object to Prempal Rawat

I've used Way's letter as an introduction to expose M's lies. Hoping he's not going to sue me!!!!

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:37:30 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Bravo Jean-Michel
Message:
The more they try and shut us up, the louder we shout.

They really have got no perspective on this stuff at all. But that's no surprise as the view isn't too great when you're grovelling on your knees.

And thanks to Ex-Premie.org for hosting this juicy, embarassing material.

The truth will out and the turds will keep rising to the surface.

Anth glad to be out the pool.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:44:18 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Bravo Jean-Michel
Message:
Sorry I didn't call you yet, you see I'm so busy!!!

I'm still planning for our next revolutionary meeting ....

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:29:35 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re:One more website, and more concern for EV!
Message:
JM,

Thanks for putting up my letter. Since I last sent it to you, I have made some minor changes. For instance, in the Finance Section, I now use 'bilked' instead of 'milked.' There are several such improvements, but the letter remains essentially the same.

One person suggested that there be a separate section for finances and life style. But I don't think we have enough verifiable, first-hand information on Rawat's personal life to make concrete claims about the drinking and the sexual affair(s), etc., (as we do with the pedophilia section). However, if we ever do receive first-hand evidence, we could add it.

Suggestions for improvements and additions are still welcomed. And if any person would like the letter sent out in the mail to a particular person, let me know. However, I will soon be on vacation for a couple weeks, and will not be checking this website. (Thank goodness).

JM, I will send you the latest version of the letter by email. But no need to make changes to your website, at this time.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 17:08:31 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re:One more website, and more concern for EV!
Message:
Thank you for your support!

Do you grant me the use of your copyrighted materials ?:))))

I consider this as a basis for a new way of presenting our objections, and all contributions will be welcome.

I think there is still a lot to elaborate on many issues ....

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 11:36:28 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: happyheretic@hotmail.com
To: Jean-Michel, Way
Subject: very good
Message:
Very well written, Way; and thanks, Jean-Michel, for putting it on your site. So EV-France is taking legal action against you now?
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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 14:15:47 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Not very good for Rawat
Message:
I doubt it .... that was merely a threat!

See the result: my past work is now safe at EPO and belong to the exes community, and my pages have a new topic: Direct critics to Mr Rawat and his Knowledge, and NO copyrights infringements!

I guess he's mad, not so good for his ulcer and high blood pressure ...

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 14:19:00 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: How'd you like to be in this guy's shoes?
Message:
From ELK:

Without the light

How could darkness express itself
- without the light ?

How could we be aware of the darkness of mind,
the cold emptiness of night, the traps of this
world, 'the timber in our own eyes'
- without the light ?
Where would we go to find it if it hasn't been
for Maharaj Ji ?
I don't know to whom else !

Sven Erik Rus Christensen
Birkerød, Denmark


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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 14:33:21 (GMT)
From: Ngel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Trying out the new vocabulary
Message:
How could darkness express itself
- without the light ?

How could we be aware of the darkness of mind,
the cold emptiness of night, the traps of this
world, 'the timber in our own eyes'
- without the light ?
Where would we go to find it if it hasn't been
for the Bullshitter ?

I don't know to whom else !

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 14:10:00 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Knowledge itself is actually wonderful...
Message:
Shakespeare's sonnets, Babbage's computing machines, Darwin's genius, Einstein's insights, Boole's logic, Fleming's medicine, The Curies' chemistry, Shostokovich's scoring - none possible without vast resources of knowledge. All were, in fact, masters in their respective fields… (if Marie Curie doesn't mind the masculine usage.)

Which is why I have decided never to use the word knowledge again - without inverted commas - when talking about the rag-bag of meditative and devotional procedures to which the name has been assigned by various 'masters'. Nor will I use the word 'master' without the quote marks unless I am talking about a time-served craftsman or somebody with proven abilities or expertise. Claiming that title for yourself and repeating the word however many times will not suffice as evidence.

Perhaps another word altogether would better suit the body of cult methods under discussion here: 'Stupefaction', perhaps. And the man in charge…?

How about 'Bullshitter'?

'Only when the Bullshitter comes can the world receive his precious gift of Stupefaction...'

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 00:21:46 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Pigs, dogs, horses, ducks and hens
Message:
Well, this Maharaji bloke is still out of prison. A bit surprising considering the abuse he has caused. Of course if he comes to England that will be corrected. His abuse of the charity laws here, his support of Jagdeo, and his appalling poetry will soon have him banged up for 30 years.

If any EV lawyers are reading this, you will also be locked up for being arsoles.

Anyway, what I actually want to know is how to breed a couple of pigs a year without them messing up my garden. Also. how do I stop one of my dogs trying to eat my ducks? And another thing, I need to buy some more hens for my cockerell to shag. Does anyone know where to buy any in Latvia? Finally, my horse gives birth in June. Any advice?

Well it's been good sharing these thoughts about Maharaji and life with you all:-)

John.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 14:17:11 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: JHB
Subject: Hey you mis-spelled 'aerosols'
Message:
If any EV lawyers are reading this, you will also be locked up for being arsoles.

But good choice of word for people trying to get rid of the bad smell whilst fucking up the atmosphere.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 03:35:04 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: whatever you do - don't fall in the pig pen
Message:
I blame all my emotional and psychological problems, even my
tendencies to fall for charismatic leader types, to falling into a pig pen full of pigs
when I was a very little girl.

or to quote HST

'in a world ruled by swine all pigs are upwardly mobile'

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 00:00:49 (GMT)
From: Mr Bubblehead
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Another story of the East, or was it of the West?
Message:
There's an interesting story of a man trying to get some work done, but his little boy keeps annoying him, wanting to play. The father was reading a magazine earlier and it had a map of the world in it, and he got this idea. He took out the map and cut it up into lots of small pieces, put them in a box and shook 'em all up. He calls over the boy and explains that we're going to play a cool game. If he can get the map back together, then he'll get a prize and we'll play another game. The boy takes the pieces to his room and the father breathes a sigh of relief and gets back to his work.. 5 minutes later the boy is back saying he is finished. The father is flabbergasted and gets the son to show him the map. Sure enough, there it is, all finished. He asked how his son had done it so quickly. The boy said it was easy. He had noticed that on the other side of the map, there was a picture of a man, and he figured that if he just put the man back together right, then the world would be right on the other side.
Any of you possums know what the moral of this story is?
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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 14:19:09 (GMT)
From: Spell check
Email: None
To: not Mr Bubblehead
Subject: Mr. B can spell, can you? 'Do not confuse . . .'
Message:
Usage. Moral, morale. Do not confuse moral (a lesson) with morale (mental condition or attitude as regards courage, confidence, enthusiasm, etc.): He understood the moral of the story. The general was pleased with the morale of his soldiers.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 18:05:35 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Mr Bubblehead
Subject: morale of the story
Message:
Never promise your kids anything!

or: Guru Maharaj Ji had it right that in order to bring peace to the whole world, you had to bring peace to the individual person. blah blah blah

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 22:42:25 (GMT)
From: Mr Bubblehead
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: morale of the story
Message:
You were close, and it causes me joy untold, to see I'm not the only bubblehead here.
The moral of the story is - 'your world is a refection of you'.
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 20:06:13 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: morale of the story
Message:
How about when you take care of the little things, or mind your own affairs, the big things fall into place. :)
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 22:48:13 (GMT)
From: Mr Bubblehead
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: morale of the story
Message:
Dear Robyn,
my search is finally over. I have chosen you to be the mother of my future children.
Be happy and rejoice.
Mr Bubblehead
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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:35:05 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Mr Bubblehead
Subject: morale of the story
Message:
And rejoice I would but for the fact that my years of reproductive capability were cut short by the surgon's knife. Woe is me.
Love,
Robyn who now will never be Mrs Bubblehead :(
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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 02:49:27 (GMT)
From: Mr B
Email: None
To: Mrs B
Subject: Life in the country.
Message:
Dear, Dear, Robyn, truly woe am I. Foiled by the knife. But by the power of positive thought, meditation and love, the tube may once again be whole, and you can then become Mrs Bubblehead. Imagine our little cottage in the country, with the 'Bubbleheads' proudly displayed above the letter-box in neon lights, and a tribe of little Bubbleheads searching out the neighbourhood cats for the dinner pot.
Too much bliss,
Mr B
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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 10:32:53 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Mr B
Subject: Life in the country.
Message:
Dear Mr B,
Cool, on with the positive thinking, I need a place to live anyway.
Love,
Robyn soon to be Mrs Bubblehead
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 19:32:28 (GMT)
From: Donna
Email: dsmith@ashfordcapital.com
To: Everyone
Subject: I am the exgirlfriend of a 'knowledge person'
Message:
I have just recently gotten out a very very abusive relationship with a person that is very hooked on M and the knowledge thing. He was sooooooooo mentally abusive that I find myself experiencing depression. All the abuse was done in the name of 'knowledge' He withheld all emotional or affectionate support, he was open to loving me in private, but in public he treated me as if I was a piece of trash, he talked to me very mean and always made me feel inappropriate and not good enough. If I made a mistake he would go off the deep end and say it was because I didn't have knowledge. I was scared to death of him and always wanted his approval. I tried my hardest to please him only to most of the time have him get pissed off. He said he would not committ to me unless I got knowledge. I went to an introduction satsang and thought it was a little strange. Because I chose to leave the relationship he said I was a fake and turned against him and his practice and that I turned things ugly. He was very mean and always very wishy washy. He would say that he was a loner and then he would say he was looking for a partner that understands him and would seem to enjoy life as a normal being when he didn't have to do any work. He said he was a messenger and seem to beleive he was like 'M' and should be catered to. He used to get upset if you didn't listen to him, but yet act like a baby that couldn't survive. I could go on and on and still not be done so the bottom line is I need help with this, can anybody give me some advice
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 11:17:41 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: happyheretic@hotmail.com
To: Donna
Subject: I am the exgirlfriend of a 'knowledge person'
Message:
Donna,
congratulations for having the power to break away.

Premie women can be impossible too. I lived for years in an impossible marriage with a woman who did not have love even for her children, only for 'Maharaji'. She even told them straight into their face that she loved him more than them.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 08:12:54 (GMT)
From: An Old Hand
Email: None
To: Donna
Subject: I am the exgirlfriend of a 'knowledge person'
Message:
Look Donna , the guy could have claimed to be Howard Hughes the fact is he behaved abominably towards you. I am a 'Knowledge person ' as you so sweetly describe it. It is most definitely not a liscense to behave like a proverbial arsehole. I think you may find he started all fucked up and unfortunately , no matter what , he is going to stay that way.
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 06:40:36 (GMT)
From: PP?
Email: None
To: Donna
Subject: Are you 'Pauline Premie'?
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:29:19 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: PP?
Subject: Are you 'Pauline Premie'?
Message:
That confused non-pwk, who is lacking that gift, is most certainly NOT me. The very idea...
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 03:29:48 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Donna
Subject: Hey, maybe we went out with the same guy....
Message:
Sounds exactly like my ex! I don't have time to write much of a reply, but just to say, that it will get better Donna, the more you move away from your ex and his brainwashed bollocks.
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 04:03:47 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: he got around didn't he TD?
Message:
And he said he was taking the opera on the road! I knew he
was getting too many frequent flyer miles!!
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 03:23:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Donna
Subject: Maybe you weren't sincere enough
Message:
Donna,

Did it ever occur to you that you're just not sincere enough? That maybe Mr. So-and-So has attained a very high level of sensitivity and spiritual attainment the likes of which you don't appreciate because, after all, you don't really have that appreciation anyway?

Face it, Donna, there is only one Maharaji and he really doesn't have all that many followers. It follows, then, that each follower he does have is a real prince (or princess) and should be treated with humility and respect. Maharaji gave you Mr. So-and-So but where was your Gratitude? I certainly don't see it, not for Maharaji in any event.

Anyway, I'm just kidding of course. You're lucky, all things considered. But you know that.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 22:35:14 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Donna
Subject: I am the exgirlfriend of a 'knowledge person'
Message:
Donna,
What kind of help do you need?
I could only think after that relationship you'd need some self esteem help and straight talk on how lucky you are to be rid of this abusive,sick guy.

Try to reaffirm your beauty and strength and worth.

You know the routine - I'm good enough.I'm smart enough. And doggone it people LIKE me.

If that doesn't work imagine him knee deep in a lake of gasoline on fire. (Someone told me to think of Jim that way,I don't of course.)

Next,you could give us his name and we'll take care of him. The satisfaction alone of knowing what we'd do to him would set your heart to rest so you could move on to a healthy and happy relationship.

(Most of this was light-hearted joking - I don't want the FA to think I'm threatening anyone. However, I suggest keying his car - - but use a gas powered chain saw.)

Elaine's Evil twin sister

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 22:20:59 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Donna
Subject: I am the exgirlfriend of a 'knowledge person'
Message:
If this ex of yours has been a premie for a long time, along with all the other stuff he has absorbed, he has been exposed to the 'master/slave' relationship...sounds like he was trying to recreate it with you. my advice? give yourself a pat on the back for leaving him, be glad you don't want to please him anymore, roll with the depression, it's like snow in Winter.
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 21:41:07 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Donna
Subject: I am the exgirlfriend of a 'knowledge person'
Message:
Donna:

He was very mean and always very wishy washy.

This sounds to me like the classic 'microsoft syndrome.' ;-) Welcome to the 'ex' forum.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 20:45:02 (GMT)
From: zelda
Email: None
To: Donna
Subject: I am the exgirlfriend of a 'knowledge person'
Message:
After I read your post I flicked back up to make sure that you had written EX girlfriend.

My heart winces for you. You explain it so accurately it is encouraging. It shows that you have awakened to what happenend.

Your story is repeated by almost every woman who tries to have an intimate relationship with a premie male. In this I also include premie women.

Please know that it was not you or the fact that you did not have knowledge. This guy is a mutant of some sort and what he was like with you will be repeated with every woman he comes acrosss- premie or not. What you need to know is that even a premie woman will not make the grade because she 'will not meditate enough or focus on what is important'

What we recognise around here is that his next 'girlfriend' will get the same treatment except for in the beginning when she will consider herself aloof from the common selection of woman because he has chosen her.

This is painful to watch because there is no talking to her. So we send her sympathizing looks at the video nights.
Then she will be somewhat mystified and eventually make contact with one of us - usually because her insticts has started to smell a rat. But there is usually a period of mild to heavy denial in which she will keep making contact to convey how wrong we all are about him. This she does by acting super duper content and settled in the relationship.
This eventually reaches a stable level and she will dump him.

It whole thing is very emotionally abusive as you describe and the dam thing is that the sex can be very good.

If I may be crude here (guys dont read this) - The fact is that sex with an exp premie guy can be even better.
I cant say anything about a guy who has never had knowledge in his life because come to think of it I have never slept with one!

The usual cautions apply to premies and exs. Treat knowledge right up there with substance abuse including alchohol and new age- all bieng clear signals to hold out from giving yourself away till you have been through at least 4 moon cycles.

This way the ebb and flow of his emotional capacities will show how they integrate with your pms/intuition radar.

This sound preachy here and I dont mean it for just you. Just an old war horse talking to the Windmill.

It was very good to see you post. It is something that doesnt get talked about here alot.

Take care and print what you wrote and put it under your pillow.
In fact make copies for select circumstances.

There is a thread below on this subject. I forget the title- but it is still on the scroll. My name is in it and Susans and Katies and a few others too.

Keep in touch and my suggestion is to put a tracking device on this guy.
It would help us to know what area you are in- so this guy can be on our 'records' you may say. We are starting to tag them. One reason for this is that they tend to change communities and troll for new soul mates.

Congratulations for getting away
Zelda

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 23:36:13 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: zelda
Subject: Thou dost generalize my dear zelda
Message:
You imply all premie men are mutants incapable of real intimacy.Hey zel careful your over-generalizations don't completely ruin your credibility.
I will say that a relationship with a premie does create complexities not encountered with non-premies.But like any other relationship success depends upon i)compatibility,ii)a shared set of goals and values,and iii)commitment to each other.
Premies definitely have a harder time committing to relationships that detract from their commitment to practicing Knowledge.And someone who understands that makes a more compatible partner just like doctors have a better success ratre with other doctors.
Doesn’t sound like the basics wwere present in Donna’s relationship so definitely better to count her losses.What I would find unattractive about the guy has nothing to do with being a premei and everything to do with good old-fashioned insensitivity.Sure some premies are extremely insensitive but so are some christians,republicans,businessmen,and genuises.In the words of Pat Benatar “love is a battle field”.Be it with premies or not.
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 05:25:00 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Thou dost generalize my dear zelda
Message:
Dear Orb
As for generalizing, if you read my post as that I am not too worried. Of course these issues are present across the board. I was not saying that they are not.
I am also not concerned about my 'credibility' as you put it because I am not argueing or tying to prove anything.

Oh ya there is one generalization I do make:
'All premie men are mutants and incapable of real intimacy.

As for your
'Premies definitely have a harder time committing to
relationships' - you dont get the point. They do not have the capacity to commit because they are committed to a the guru. That is not the same as republicans businessman geniuses ect ect. I will see your christians and raise you a credit because you are missing the point- at least it serves your right now to argue the point like you do.

you sound like a recent fence line ex/not quite ex and so thats ok. I understand that you need to miss the point.

Dont critisise unless you have walked a mile in my cuppachino

You name Rob by any chance?

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 17:40:22 (GMT)
From: orb
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: This chick is scary!
Message:
Take note JW she was generalizing.
You know z-hell-da one of the nice things about relationships is you get to choose the ones you want.That means I don't have to have one with nasty people if I choose not to,which I don't so enjoy your intolerant little life.
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 11:42:06 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand JI
Email: not given
To: Zelda
Subject: Thou dost generalize my dear zelda
Message:
I can't imagine that having a relationship with a premie would be anymore difficult than having a relationship with let's say a workaholic. I think that it would be very similiar in the sense that it is an obsession that detracts from the relationship. The person is so involved that they leave no room in their life for intimacy and they may also be using their obsession as a means of avoiding intimacy and other issues in their lives. But you also may want to take a look at what motivates a person to become involved with workaholics, premies, or other problem people. Is it low self esteem? Do you think you can rescue or change them? Is it to scary for you to get involved with someone who is an earth person i.e. not a premie and never been one. What is it?
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 23:41:39 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: O
Subject: O, Love is NOT a battlefield......
Message:
I think Pat Benetar was being sarcastic.

I agree, though, that the things Zelda said aren't only applicable to premies, but the situation described is somewhat unique, and I believe facilities this kind of abusive process continuing -- and it gives ammunition to an abusive partner to lay cult-trips on the other partner.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 00:50:22 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Oh but it certainly can be........
Message:
The line in the song is a metaphore for what goes on in relationships every day.
Regarding the uniqueness of this case sure.But every situation is unique.If you trying to pin the cause of the guys insensitivity to Knowledge,thats a stretch.But if it fuels your cause,hell why not give it a shot.It would not be out of character for an expremie to pander to such leaps of logic.
What is universal are the building blocks of healthy relationships such as compatibility,shared values and goals,and commitment to each other.Even insensitivity can be overcome if these are present.But these weren't there for Donna.
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 01:07:59 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Come on O, be fair.....
Message:
I think what Donna and Zelda are describing are real situations. To the extent they were labeling all premies as being that way, which they weren't, you are doing the same by stating the characteristics of ex-premies, who are also all individuals and quite different from each other in lots of ways.

What I think is significant is the effect Maharaji's stunted philosophy has on interpersonal relationships. In the past, Maharaji openly disdained interpersonal relationships. He told us in the ashram to basically reject our parents (specifically, he said, and I heard him, 'the only tie you have with your parents is the one they gave you for Christmas.') The cult was enormously damaging to the relationships many of us had with our families, because we took what Maharaji said serioiusly.

Since I've never had a relationship with a premie, I can only guess what it's like and it doesn't sound too good. But, again, I think it's the fact that Maharaji injects himself into a premie's life that creates another obstacle. Maybe some premies overcome it, and it sounds like a lot don't.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 01:33:32 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Let's do.....
Message:
As I said,it adds a complexity but it all comes down to what your individual priorities are.If relationships are what cranks you up,premiedom will probably present some difficult challenges.If knowing yourself is what makes you tick,then relatinships can get in the way by competing for your attention.
You are a person who seems to place highvalue on relationships so your opinions are no surprise.A person who first wants to know thenmself would be more of a loner than someone like you.A loner (like Donna's ex for example) would have a difficult time by virtue of his loner tendancies whether his actions are triggered by Knowledge or just plain wanderlust.
As for loners 'overcoming' the relationship challenge who said they want to.That's like saying gays overcome their gayness.A personal choice and only if they set it as a goal they want to acheive.I agree though that loners should recognize the damage they can cause and be careful not to inflict themself on others.Easier said than done when needs and emotions are involved.
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 04:03:40 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Doesn't Make Sense to me
Message:
I don't accept your premise that it's and either or situation. I don't agree that 'knowing yourself' and 'relationships' are somehow in competition. I, mean, I believed that as a premie, but it's false. And 'wanting to know yourself' doesn't require 'being a loner.' Where did you get a dumb idea like that? From Maharaji?

I think you get to know yourself THROUGH things like relationships and other experiences in life, not by cutting yourself off from them, and treating people like objects that can be discarded if they get in the way of your ridiculous spititual ego.

And like I said before, those people you call 'loners' I would call people so TOTALLY out of touch with themselves and their own feelings and emotions such that they are not even capable of a relationship, while all the time thinking they are on some kind of spiritual path. It's nonsense, and very sad.

But then, too, premies supposedly have this wonderful love that Mahararji endlessly and repetitively talks about. And yet, even then, these people are incapable of giving and receiving love between human beings. It isn't a very good example of this supposed wonderful 'gift' the former lord of the universe offers.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:49:12 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Ego is ego,spiritual or otherwise
Message:
>>>I don't accept your premise that it's and either or situation. I don't agree that 'knowing yourself' and 'relationships' are somehow in competition.

You don't agree with me,surprise,surprise.

>>>And 'wanting to know yourself' doesn't require 'being a loner.'

No but it requires being alone.Thinsk about it.Every relationship requires a certain amount of your time to maintain.This maintenance time is not time spent focusing on yourself but time focusing on the relationship.So you do the math.Spend more time on a releationship you have less time to spend knowing your self.Balance.

>>>I think you get to know yourself THROUGH things like relationships and other experiences in life, not by cutting yourself off from them, and treating people like objects that can be discarded if they get in the way of your ridiculous spititual ego.

You get to know yourself through any interaction,yes,*as long as getting to know yourself is a priority*.There is a subtle difference between that and having relationships as a priority.We all know how capable we are of kidding ourself regarding what is our real prio's.And by the way it's tiresome seeing you take the worse case scenario and applying it across the board for all premies.Say you treated people like objects and discarded them when you were a premie but don't generalize, please.It just doesn't apply across the board today.

>>>And like I said before, those people you call 'loners' I would call people so TOTALLY out of touch with themselves and their own feelings and emotions such that they are not even capable of a relationship, while all the time thinking they are on some kind of spiritual path. It's nonsense, and very sad.

Loners are people with their own set of characteristics and values.You are exposing a very intolerant side of yourself to describe all loners in such negative terms.It is their nature to prefer to be alone.Who are you to impose your values on them?You are no different than someone ignorant of what it is like to be gay putting down gays because they are the way they are.But I suppose when push comes to shove you are reflective of the same of intolerance expressed by many expremies.You seem to want a society that ostracizes everyone but those YOU define as acceptable.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 18:26:29 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: O
Subject: The falsity of what it takes for personal growth
Message:
No but it requires being alone.Thinsk about it.Every relationship requires a certain amount of your time to maintain.This maintenance time is not time spent focusing on yourself but time focusing on the relationship.So you do the math.Spend more time on a releationship you have less time to spend knowing your self.Balance.

I think you have greatly over-valued 'being alone' and that it has something to do with spirituality. And 'focusing on yourself' also can happen in a relationship. You can be in a relationship and quite alone if you need to be. But, again, I don't know where you get the idea that being 'alone' for more time, and spending 'more time with yourself' is necessary to 'know yourself.' Like I said, you can learn more about yourself from a relationship than you can sitting and doing breathing exercises.

I never suggested that all premies act like Donna's ex. But from what I gather from Zelda, who has done something of a research project on this, and from the other ex-premie women who have had similar experiences with premie men that Donna has had, it does seem to be a trend among premies. And it doesn't say much for how they manifest what Maharaji supposedly offers.

And, again, I haven't described all 'loners' in negative terms. What I said was that I reject your concept that being a 'loner' explains the dysfunctionality when it comes to relationships, and I also reject that being a 'loner' is some kind of requirement to be a fully developed human being. All I get from you is conjecture, and I don't think it's true.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 21:27:34 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Personal growth is just that---personal
Message:
Sure JW,whatever you say.You make broad sweeping generalizations out of one side of your mouth and then cover it up out of the other.The genralizations made perpetuate stereotypes that do not apply across the board.Broad generalizations may make you look clever but in the end they are harmful to people.In this case you are just wrong,and I have many examples to prove you wrong.I mean how close for you is acceptable?Not very.
Anyway who cares,yuo arent *really* interested in a fair discussion so carry on with your clever sweeping statements.When your on the other side of the stick you may understand what Im talking about.
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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:27:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Have you posted before under another name?
Message:
O,

Basic honesty requires that you don't keep coming back pretending to be different people. That's also a house rule as I'm sure you know. Well?

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:47:03 (GMT)
From: observer
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Have you posted before under another name?
Message:
Hey Jim,smart dog but no bone.I posted as observer but shortened it to O.How about you,ever posted under another name?
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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 12:57:35 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: observer
Subject: Hi Obs
Message:
I thought that may have been you I was reading. Still on the old M bandwagon? I thought you may have jumped ship by now.

I left the ashram just before he closed them , so I wasn't upset when it happened. I left knowledge because it doesn't work and M's mission is a sinking ship. I hope you don't get too distraught when the whole thing collapses.

Let us know when you need support in becoming an ex.

Cheers Hal. P.S You sound a lot like Mirror. You're not him too are you?

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 01:13:00 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: observer
Subject: Have you posted before under another name?
Message:
No, I've never posted under any name but my own except once as a spoof. I imitated Katie and a couple of others and admitted it within minutes. But no, I can't really see why anyone bothers to hide here. Oh yeah, right, some people I guess have some legitimate 'security' concerns or something but they have to be in the minority. The real reason people hide here is something else. For ex's, I think it's fear that the premies they still know and hang out with will give them all sorts of flack for speaking out against the cult. For premies, I think it's just a general paranoia about ever saying the 'wrong thing' whatever that may be.

What's your excuse?

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 04:58:33 (GMT)
From: different name
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: so you get the boy scout badge for honesty
Message:
or is there one for intimidation these days?
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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 08:35:33 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: different name
Subject: Oh come on...
Message:
Since when was asking someone a straight question like why they opt for anonymity a form of 'intimidation'?

There's nothing to stop you lying in your reply, is there? You could even change your name (Jim would never know or catch up with you).

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 08:52:31 (GMT)
From: DN
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Because it is a tactic
Message:
Used often. If you haven't seen it or don't want to that is your choice. BTW 'different name' and 'DN' are not O or observer.
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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 14:48:52 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: O
Subject: You can do a rough statistical overview...
Message:
Of course you can't generalise to every case - and I don't think Joe is doing that. But you can compare the stability of relationships within a premie community with those in any other similar sized social grouping. I'm not saying fidelity is the norm anywhere nowadays, but in my old community M's followers are to this today referred to casually by outsiders as 'those bed-hopping premies' such is the perennial instability of the relationships. And it's not as if those premies (male and female) are just promiscuous by choice; more a case of trying and failing, again and again to establish something long-term and never getting it right.

I don't know of any other religious or recreational group in an equivalent area of the UK going through anything like as many bust-ups and partner-swaps. And I would certainly attribute a lot of it to M's former insistence on HIS receiving all of a premie's love and devotion, over and above all other relationships. And don't say he never made such demands, because that would be a lie.

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 02:02:51 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: O et all
Subject: rough statistical overview generalzed not
Message:
'And I would certainly attribute a lot of it to M's former insistence on HIS receiving all of a premie' love and devotion, over and above all other relationships. And don't say he never made such demands, because that would be a lie.'

In a nutshell thats it. Maraji has inserted a factor in premies lives that make them incapable of giving a relationship what it takes to allow it to grow.
The relationships that are together are only so because one partner has not woken up to the fact that they are with a clone.
In my experience, it is usually the woman that wakes up first to this fact because her needs of nurturing children show up the mans selfishness in stark contrast.

It goes against a womans nature to groom her child for the guru.
So they wait and watch and eventually get out.
I could give lists of premie couples where the woman is taking care of keds and He is off at video nights prostelizing the sisters till he comes across another soul mate.

Of course by O's reasoning- the factors of the breakup look much like those of regular people- but in fact the cause is very specific to the cult brainwashing. This looks like generalization because it IS generally true. Duh.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 20:55:31 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: zelda
Subject: Aren't these premies getting kind of old?
Message:
I mean, many of them must be in their 50s now, aren't they? I guess this would be the die-hard ones from the 70s. How much 'trolling' are they capable of doing now that they are middle aged? And isn't men trolling at that age kind of pathetic? Actually it's the premie women who fall for them who sound pathetic. Can I switch the tables? What is it about premie women who would fall for such assholes? Is it lack of self-esteem from all the diatribes from Maharaji about how worthless human beings are, and how we should expect nothing from personal relationships?

Very interesting, though, what you say about premie men. I never had a relationship with a premie, but I was in love, or maybe just infatuated, with one or two when I lived in the ashram. We weren't allowed to have sex, you know.

I must say, though, that I think there is a lot of really good sex to be had with men who have never been premies. At least that's my experience. ::))

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 21:10:49 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Aren't these premies getting kind of old?
Message:
Some of them are in their 50s. And very very attractive. 'Attractive' doesnt figure in as too important when animal magnetism is the forcefield. This forcefield must be a the result of a quasi tantric pull or something. It outwardly appears all conservative but pulls like a goddam compass needle.
There is no age limit. The younger guys are at the same game.
The women can do the same but they tend to be more showy.

I agree- premie women that fall for this are needy because of a string of reasons.

To clarify- I have great respect for the force field- it is a vital part of courtship.
But I have seen premie men exploited it to draw in women- while being emotional cripples at the same time. Combined with the soul mate line is is pitiful.
Zelda

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 21:34:15 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Aren't these premies getting kind of old?
Message:
One of the premies that hangs around with my roomie's group is about 55. He got the K in the early 70's and recently has become an instructor for M. (whatever the fuck that means). He is always bringing people to the hall to hear M, usually young women, lost, looking for something. He helps them find it. Then suddenly one day, they just quit coming. I think he just gets em involved, bangs them and then they go back to being lost and looking for something. He uses the M thing for way in. Know what I mean? I would love to see what would happen if an older woman (with her shit together) hit on him and see what he'd do. My roomie tells me he has'nt been in a relationship for many years. Had his heart broken once, or some such bullshit. I gotta admit, a 55 year old guy, grabbin' some fine young ass, I'll give him credit for it, but where is all the shit M teaches about love. Maybe M is the perfect teacher.
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 03:02:15 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: There were whole premie houses of guys attracting
Message:
women via Knowledge. At one time, I thought that was the ultimate form of propogation:).
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 21:33:26 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Aren't these premies getting kind of old?
Message:
Sorry Zelda, I don't buy the 'forcefield' business. I mean, I know about 'forcefield' but premies don't have any more or less than anybody else.

My theory is this: heterosexual premie women are predisposed to be attracted to premie men because of all the cult programming. Somehow being in a relationship with a premie is less threatening, less likely to force you off the all-important spiritual path, and maybe they can even 'inspire' each other, you know?' So, a premie woman can be more open and hence feels the 'forcefield' more. And premie men know, that it is easier to 'get' a premie woman than a non-premie woman because of the same issues. That's why they only 'troll' among the premies. But since this isn't based on anything real, it is, as you said, almost always doomed to failure.

I have found most premie men to be rather nerdy and creepy. There are a few exceptions, but outside of the premie world, I think only women who are attracted to stunted infantilism would be interested.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 03:46:13 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Aren't these premies getting kind of old?
Message:
My theory is this: heterosexual premie women are predisposed to be attracted to premie men because of all the cult programming.

Yeah, well MY theory is this. Premie woman are attracted to premie men because they're just as flaky as the men are, even more so. Birds of a feather, that sort of thing. I've never met more zoned out, spacy, or dizzy chicks than premie women in my life. Have you? Believe me. I've dated premie girls, and I've dated 'normal' ones. There is a world of difference. Actually, I kind of dig the premie ones. Spacy can be nice. It's fun sometimes, all that kookiness wrapped up in those gorgeous bodies. I always found it a turn on. Like Pauline Premie. Who wouldn't just love to shag her?

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 03:34:07 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Aren't these premies getting kind of old?
Message:
BWAA HA HA
ALl those luscious premie chicks with their blissed out expressions have lost their innocence, are pissed off, and are now going through menopause--AIIEEEEE!

I gotta agree with you, it was kind of fun being a spacey premie chick, eating all that ice cream and then feeling guilty about it later. But ya know, they all had to go the way of all bimbos and grow up into real women who'll eat a whole fucking gallon of thin mint ice cream if they fucking feel like it!

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 11:50:54 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: not given
To: Jerry
Subject: Aren't these premies getting kind of old?
Message:
I don't know about Pauline Premie but how about Durga Ji.
They don't call her the Tiger Godess fer nutin ya know!
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 00:32:18 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: JW's last paragragh--Loved it!! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 22:27:46 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Aren't you being a little rash?
Message:
I have found most premie men to be rather nerdy and creepy. There are a few exceptions, but outside of the premie world, I think only women who are attracted to stunted infantilism would be interested.

JW, think about this: you're pointing that finger at such fine fellows as Mili, CD, Deputy Dog, Bjorn, Melbourne and Catweasel. These guys are our friends. Don't you think you could lighten up on the rhetoric just a little ???


Oh, maybe these are the exceptions (snicker.)

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 04:12:00 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: scizo Sundays remembered
Message:
I remember this guy at the videos. eeeiiieewww........creepy!!
He would just leer. Never fucking talk. As if, my precense is enough just bask in it. And someone actually married this guy.

He was physically handsome but the jerk couldn't even talk.
How nice to remember THAT. well, it is good to remember. If I think I'm fucked up now, what on earth was I doing sitting in a room, first zombie out time listen to M babble romper room for the mind time out.
Them social minute before I escape to the car. And try to re-enter life for the day.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 22:51:57 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Isn't it Weird??
Message:
Isn't it weird that Zelda and others believe that premies have some kind of 'forcefield attraction?' God, what a pile of crap. The only difference is that they stopped growing about 1973, and so they are trolling premie women in a vain attempt at actually having a relationship. I think we should ask about those people you mentioned and see how stable their relationships have been. I understand Mel is married to a non-premie, who has no interest in knowledge, or so he says.

Is CD married? How about DD and Mili? Or are they out there at video events tolling?

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 14:25:46 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: JW
Subject: last I heard..
Message:
(from what the gentlemen themselves have put on the net), CD is single but has a non-premie girlfriend. Mili is single but on the lookout...

This info might be out of date, of course.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 00:39:28 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Isn't it Weird??
Message:
JW
I don't think anyone cares - but I'm with a 'non-premie' ----
about 5-6 years now. Before that eleven with a premie.

And it is wonderful and healthy and full of passion and gentleness. But we've both been in therapy and never blame the other for anything. We know we may have gotten 'triggered' by something, but it's our stuff and so 'no blame'.
Seems very nice so far - kind of mature actually....as I watch friends still slamming doors and pouting like I used to in my twenties.
Elaine B.
I feel old and wise now.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 03:11:23 (GMT)
From: just breathing
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Isn't it Weird??
Message:
You sound as though you have come out the other end of something and just want to share it to hurry other's along. I think I tried to say that the other night, but because of a few glasses of wine on an empty stomach it came out way less sophisticated (or common sense) than yours. But when I read your messages to others I feel as if I've known you along time ago (and wish I were now) in a very peaceful place. It isn't all that peaceful in this realm all the time is it? But reading you givees me respite.
Just breathing. I wonder if you know a friend of mine. Hre name is Melanie (Lainie). She is the sister of my friend Lindsey. Do you?
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 15:20:31 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: just breathing
Subject: Peaceful realm...
Message:
Just breathing,
If I'm catching your meaning - you're saying 'this realm' as this earth? No, it is absolutely not peaceful all the time.
This 3rd dimension is so difficult and I think only the die hards chose to come back to it to learn and grow.

In this bk I'm reading it says in the universe 'they' call earth 'the insane asylum'. So much negativity here it makes you grow faster. But, we chose it to advance faster.At times I profoundly feel I don't belong here - so much brutality,ignorance,cruelty...but, I don't want to get depressed.

'It's not how life treats you...
It's how you respond to it...
And life is hard.'

from the 'Profiler' - NBC ?

Maintaining peace and spreading it to those around you is a service we can do to lighten the load for others. It keeps me from being selfish and focusing on just my own problems - to help others - even a little.

You know what my latest thing is...carrying a pack of cigarettes with me so when I do my daily walks and yet another homeless type asks me for a cigarette - I'm going to blow him away buy giving him a whole pack. :)

This one little act of connection could change his whole week. Of course, the cynics here could say and 'nail one more nail in his coffin.' But,we're all dying anyway.

Anyway, gotta go, and sorry I don't know the people you mentioned.

Bye,Elaine

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:13:15 (GMT)
From: just breathing
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Peaceful realm...
Message:
I'm skipping and skimming and there is all this anger, and then I come across something from you again and there is relief and just a feeling of love and balance. I'm getting all tense reading all these people being judgmental and scared and then there you are again, just being loving and accepting. I would be willing to bet that you 'Got' this by knowing Maharaji. And now that you'vemoved on, apparently you still carry that treasure with you. Isn't that all that matters? Isn[t anyone else getting that? I was never a premie, now do I know more than a pittance about him, and I totally understand that these people teach us and then test us to see is we really got it or were just glomming onto them as a person. I think you really got it. Thanks for being there.
just breathing
oh, lainie and Lindsey are on a soap opera, I was just teasing.
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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:57:09 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: just breathing
Subject: Peaceful realm...
Message:
Oh aren't you sweet.
And alot of people here 'get it'.
Keep getting to know people here, they're fun.

One of the things I have kept is the original reason why I came to M so long ago.

Don't let the 'not so nice' posts get into you.
Know who you are and stay centered and clear.
Let people just be where they're at.

Elaine's Advice of the day. :)

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 22:58:00 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Deputy Dog's not married...
Message:
but he's been put out to stud a few times on account of his glossy coat...
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 03:07:05 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Deputy Dog's is married...
Message:
gErRy,

I've been married for many years, and quite frankly my wife is a saint for putting up with me.

I used to go out to stud in my younger days but always felt rather shabby about it. I guess I'm a family man at heart.

And thankfully I still have a nice glossy coat which I've been dyeing lately.

-- Dogg

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:18:49 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Thanks for sharing Dep...
Message:
Deputy Dog responded:

I've been married for many years, and quite frankly my wife is a saint for putting up with me.

So I take it you're sorta of a jerk then, huh?

I used to go out to stud in my younger days but always felt rather shabby about it. I guess I'm a family man at heart.

OKay-dokay Doggy, you feel guilty about having sex before marriage. Now that's a novel thought. Where'd you pick up that idea? But how does that equate to being a family man?

And thankfully I still have a nice glossy coat which I've been dyeing lately.

Now isn't that a little deceptive, Mr. Dogg? And vain? Not to mention your lack of acceptance of 'what is-as it is.' Maybe you need to practise a little harder...

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 22:34:29 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Aren't you being a little rash?
Message:
Hi gErRy and JW,
The thing that struck me about Joe's comment was that HE was a premie as were all or most of the men here so... did getting out get out out of nerd and creepville also? :) Just asking.

Donna,
I agree that just the fact that you see what was going on and stopped it is an indication that you will be fine eventually. I also liked what Lotus Eater, I think, said about the depression being like snow in winter, what a great analogy! You will find support here so make use of this place to get through this rough time and then try to work on your self esteem so you never try to bend over backwards to please a man who wouldn't do the same for you. I am guilty of the same type of behavior and have worked many years to change and I'll tell you it isn't easy and I will never be 'done' but have sure as hell have come a long way! Good luck to you.
Love,
Robyn

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 21:43:46 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Aren't these premies getting kind of old?
Message:
Yes I see what you are saying.
What I say about the sexual forcefield applies to premei men- I dont mean to compare it with non premie men.

It is true that premei men troll the premie women for the reasons you describe. But around here they also target aspirant women.
It is the aspirants that are at risk.

What you say rings true too. In fact I tend to think that premie women who get mixed up with premie men get what they deserve.

I like hearing what exs say about this- the insights amaze me still.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 21:55:15 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Aren't these premies getting kind of old?
Message:
Yes, I suppose aspirant women might even be more vulnerable.

The whole aspirant process is one of humiliation. Someone has to listen for months on end to M's repetitive discourses, and then the premies keep telling them they have to be 'ready.' So, getting involved with a premie, if the aspirant is looking to enhance her chance of getting what she is told is the ultimate experience and key to happiness, might be a way to help get it. And they are very vulnerable.

I don't agree that premie women get what they deserve. The whole cult is poison to healthy interpersonal relationships because M injects himself into the middle of them. This is true not only with romantic relationships, but also families, friends, and even children. Nobody deserves the kind of treatment that Donna got. If Maharaji was really about helping people grow and develop, those stunted premie men and women would grow out of the process you are observing, in my opinion.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 05:47:53 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: loner thing a bit old
Message:
It is important to keep in mind that many older men premies were also mixed up with drugs in the 70s. If they are loners now it can be because of a shot liver. This can result in introverion.

Being mean and wishy washy is an emotional sickness that is not related only to knowlege but practicing knowledge makes it worse and I think it causes it because it viruses on early life experinces.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 09:31:44 (GMT)
From: zelda
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Zelda to JW not JW to JW above NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 20:54:22 (GMT)
From: susan
Email: None
To: zelda
Subject: ps to Zelda
Message:
men who have never had knowledge are GREAT!
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 19:56:41 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Donna
Subject: I am the exgirlfriend of a 'knowledge person'
Message:
Hi Donna
Did you read Zelda's insights on intimate relationships with premies (in a thread below)? They were great. I'm sure you'll get a lot of good info here.

My own experience is that alot of people come to the 'knowledge' (I am SO sick of that term, it has this bullshit mystique around it) with alot of baggage already--otherwise why would they surrender their lives in the first place?

Then 'knowledge' and M are presented in such black and white terms--there's no room to maneuver, so there rreally isn't room for a relationship in a premie's black/white existence. SO it's easy for the non-premie spouse or significant other to be the scapegoat--'If it weren't for you I would be experiencing perfection all the time!' or 'why can't you be like _____, that beautiful premie sister who smiles/gives satsang/has the perfect macrobiotic body blah blah blah?' A lot of premies just have problems coping with real life in general, and if a relationship isn't real life stuff than what is?

It's easier said than done, but I say find someone capable of real himan love who doesn't have all these ridulous notions of perfection.

Can't say I ever had a relationship with a 'premie' but I did have an equally screwed up relationship with someone who was heavily into Muktanenda and marijuana!! It was so frustrating trying to communicate with him. Two little children in their happy guru world--good thing we didn't reproduce--barf!!

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 13:42:08 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: I am the exgirlfriend of a 'knowledge person'
Message:
Helen:

A lot of premies just have problems coping with real life in general, and if a relationship isn't real life stuff than what is?

Well, that's the core of it isn't it? What I'm concerned about is that Donna seems to have left the building. I don't see that she's made any follow up posts. Perhaps she's intimidated by the sheer volume of the response.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 19:58:37 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: I meant 'human' not 'himan'--sheesh
Message:
Looking for a hee-man to love, I am. For I am Sheera, Princess of Power!
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 13:57:13 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: I meant 'human' not 'himan'--sheesh
Message:
Helen:

On my keyboard the 'U' and 'I' are typed with the forefinger of the left hand, rather than the middle finger of the right hand. 'Himan' could still be mistakenly typed for 'human,' but probably with less frequency. I mean, assuming the forefinger is more dextrous. I, at least, have a middle finger that only achieves infrequent and unrefined distinction.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 20:25:28 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Hi Scott
Message:
Looks like Donna posted more in an above thread. I knew she would get a good response.

How ya been? I'm hanging in. Colleen has been so delightful ....8 years old is some kind of halcyon state of being... Ah, youth!

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 03:40:04 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Hi Helen
Message:
Helen:

Hi yourself. Glad things are going so well with family, but I didn't expect anything else. I'm getting plenty of oxygen. There's a big cycling event this weekend, so will have friends from all over the country coming in. It's a display event, rather than performance. The stranger the better. Geek chique. Keep in touch.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 03:51:00 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: cyclist forum
Message:
I loved your description of how weird the cyclists' forum can be--the arguments people get into. Makes this place look like a cake walk, eh? I still want to get a group of people together to go to a dance at Glen Echo. Have fun this weekend. My hubby and I are going to my parents' beach house--without the kid--what a concept--yeah!
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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 05:44:36 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: cyclist forum
Message:
Helen:

I loved your description of how weird the cyclists' forum can be--the arguments people get into. Makes this place look like a cake walk, eh?

Yeah, the one that's the most fun is the 'big wheel' vs. 'little wheel' controversy. Do big wheels have less rolling resistance? Are little wheels more aerodynamic? Seems if you put shock absorbers on little wheels it improves their rolling resistance... so Alex Moulton's time trial bikes, with their little 17 inch wheels, were the rage until the cycling powers that B banned them. Next someone will design a time trial bike with 30 inch wheels, which will be likewise banned about a season later. Oh the injustice of it all!

Have a good time on the shore. The Glen Echo thing sounds great. Either that or Lovely Lane in Baltimore. A nice attractive bunch of folks.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 19:46:50 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: not given
To: Donna
Subject: I am the exgirlfriend of a 'knowledge person'
Message:
Advise? Here it is, DON'T LOOK BACK! Sounds like you did the right thing breaking it off. Find someone that is more compatible that will treat you with respect.
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 18:10:21 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Making sense of the experience
Message:
Just found the following on the AFF site(http://web1.mtd.com/csj.org/pub_affnews/affnews11.html ), and thought it worth sharing:


The following sets of questions have proven helpful to former cult
members trying to make sense of their experience.

Reviewing your recruitment


1. What was going on in your life at the time you joined the group
or met the person who became your abusive partner?

2. How and where were you approached?

3. What was your initial reaction to or feeling about the leader or
group?

4. What first interested you in the group or leader?

5. How were you misled during recruitment?

6. What did the group or leader promise you? Did you ever get it?

7. What didn't they tell you that might have influenced you not to
join had you known?

8. Why did the group or leader want you?






Understanding the psychological manipulation used in your
group



1. Which controlling techniques were used by your group or leader:
chanting, meditation, sleep deprivation, isolation, drugs, hypnosis,
criticism, fear. List each technique and how it served the group's
purpose.

2. What was the most effective? the least effective?

3. What technique are you still using that is hard to give up? Are
you able to see any effects on you when you practice these?

4. What are the group's beliefs and values? How did they come to
be your beliefs and values?






Examining your doubts


1. What are your doubts about the group or leader now?

2. Do you still believe the group or leader has all or some of the
answers?

3. Are you still afraid to encounter your leader or group members on
the street?

4. Do you ever think of going back? What is going on in your mind
when this happens?

5. Do you believe your group or leader has any supernatural or
spiritual power to harm you in any way?

6. Do you believe you are cursed by God for having left the group?











Cultic Studies
cult recovery

Coming Out of the Cults
Margaret Thaler Singer, Ph.D.

(Excerpted from 'Coming Out of the Cults,'
Psychology Today, January, 1979)



Most ex-cult members we have seen struggle at one time or another
with some or all of the following difficulties and problems. Not all
have all of these problems, nor do most have them in severe and
extended form.

Depression. With their 24-hour regime of ritual, work, worship, and
community, the cults provide members with tasks and purpose.
When members leave, a sense of meaninglessness often reappears.
They must also deal with family and personal issues left unresolved
at the time of conversion.

But former members have a variety of new losses to contend with.
They often speak of their regret for the lost years and feel a loss of
innocence and self-esteem if they come to believe that they were
used, or that they wrongly surrendered their autonomy.

Loneliness. Leaving a cult also means leaving many friends, a
brotherhood with common interests, the intimacy of sharing a very
significant experience, and having to look for new friends in an
uncomprehending or suspicious world.

Indecisiveness. Some groups prescribe virtually every activity:
what and when to eat, wear, and do during the day and night,
showering, defecating procedures, and sleep positions. The loss of a
way of life in which everything is planned often creates a 'future
void' in which they must plan and execute all their tomorrows on
their own. Certain individuals cannot put together any organized plan
for taking care of themselves, whether problems involve a job,
school, or social life. Some have to be urged to buy alarm clocks and
notebooks in order to get up, get going, and plan their days.

Slipping into Altered States. Recruits are caught up in a round of
long, repetitive lectures couched in hypnotic metaphors and exalted
ideas, hours of chanting while half-awake, attention-focusing songs
and games, and meditating. Several groups send their members to
bed wearing headsets that pipe sermons into their ears as they
sleep, after hours of listening to tapes of the leader’s exhortations
while awake. These are all practices that tend to produce states of
altered consciousness, exaltation, and suggestibility.

When they leave the cult, many members find that a variety of
conditions—stress and conflict, a depressive low, certain significant
words or ideas—can trigger a return to the trancelike state they
knew in cult days. They report that they fall into the familiar,
unshakable lethargy, and seem to hear bits of exhortations from cult
speakers. These episodes of 'floating'—like the flashbacks of drug
users—are most frequent immediately after leaving the group, but
can still occur weeks or months later.

Blurring of Mental Acuity. Most cult veterans report—and their
families confirm—subtle cognitive inefficiencies and changes that
take some time to pass. Many former cult members have to take
simple jobs until they regain former levels of competence.

Fear of the Cult. Most of the groups work hard to prevent
defections: some ex-members cite warnings of heavenly damnation
for themselves, their ancestors, and their children. Since many cult
veterans retain some residual belief in the cult doctrines, this alone
can be a horrifying burden.

When members do leave, efforts to get them back reportedly range
from moderate harassment to incidents involving the use of force.
Many ex-members and their families secure unlisted phone numbers;
some move away from known addresses; some even take assumed
names in distant places.

Fear may be most acute for former members who have left a spouse
or children behind in the cults that recruited couples and families.
Any effort to make contact risks breaking the link completely. Often
painful legal actions ensue over child custody or conservatorship
between ex- and continuing adherents.

The Fishbowl Effect. A special problem is the constant
watchfulness of family and friends, who are on the alert for any
signs that the difficulties of real life will send the person back. Mild
dissociation, deep preoccupations, temporary altered states of
consciousness, and any positive talk about cult days can cause
alarm in a former member’s family. Often the ex-member senses it,
but neither side knows how to open up discussion.

New acquaintances and old friends can also trigger an ex-cult
member’s feelings that people are staring, wondering why he/she
joined such a group.

The Agonies of Explaining. Why one joined is difficult to tell
anyone who is unfamiliar with cults. One has to describe the
subtleties and power of the recruitment procedures and how one
was indoctrinated. Most difficult of all is to try to explain why a
person is unable simply to walk away from a cult, for that entails
being able to give a long and sophisticated explanation of social and
psychological coercion, influence, and control procedures.

Guilt. According to our informants, significant parts of cult activity
are based on deception, particularly fund-raising and recruitment.
The dishonesty is rationalized as being for the greater good of the
cult or the person recruited. As they take up their personal
consciences again, many ex-members feel great remorse over the
lies they have told, and they frequently worry over how to right the
wrongs they did.

Perplexities about Altruism. Many of these people want to find
ways to put their altruism and energy back to work without
becoming a pawn in another manipulative group. They wonder how
they can properly select among the myriad contending
organizations—social, religious, philanthropic, service-oriented,
psychological—and remain their own boss.

Elite No More. 'They get you to believing that they alone know how
to save the world,' recalled one member. 'You think you are in the
vanguard of history . . . As the chosen, you are above the law . . . '
Clearly one of the more poignant comedowns of postgroup life is the
end of feeling a chosen person, a member of an elite.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 15:57:35 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: To SB about Michael Moore
Message:
SB,

The threads here come and go pretty quickly so I am bringing this discussion back up top, because it might lead to something.

I see below that you are working on getting a proposal to MM for an episode of his TV show, and that they have expressed some interest. As I said before, I think a proposal should include a copy of LOTU and a copy of a few recent videos. I also see that Katie is now offering for free some recent videos that she has.

Please let us know how your efforts work out.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 18:37:09 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: To SB about Michael Moore
Message:
I'm happy to try to contact Jay Martel, a writer for Moore as well. I don't know how much say he might have in pitching a story. I'll send an email to his dad and ask.

I think just letting Moore see LOTU, this website and related links, etc. would be great. Also, he might need some kind of a written summary -- kind of a road map of the story here:

1. M arrived as the god/Lord of the Universe, Millennium, hippies

2. Thousands dedicated their lives, gave up everything, etc.

3. M became filthy rich

4. M now tries to hide that he ever claimed to be lord of the universe/god, is even more filthy rich, and there are a lot of disgruntled former devotees who are frustrated that he won't even acknowledge what he did, and REFUSES any accountability whatsoever.

I think that is the basic story, and could be used by Michael to ask M what happened, why he didn't bring peace to the world, why he asked for total devotion and doesn't anymore, and why he used to be god, but isn't anymore.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 20:12:35 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Michael Moore and Detroit
Message:
Remember that Moore is from Michigan and the Detroit area in particular. This is where the pie incident happened. It might be a hook for him.

Marianne

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 16:22:37 (GMT)
From: red butler
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: heads will roll at the Divine Palace over this,
Message:
M was fuming again. It was always best to not take him too seriously when he got this way and keep your distance. There was always the west wing to escape to. He never went there. Something about 'bad karma' or other such twaddle.

Anyway it was the celebrity thing again. The fucking Scientologist (Scientologists for chrissake!) had that thug Travolta and a bunch of other geeks and who did M have, HUH? Some outta date tennis writer and that wimpy guy who used to do the soaps and now this fucking Michael Moore is threatening to make a sitcom out of the whole business.

Next it will be the cognac and bc bud which will quiet things down for a while. I hope to god he doesn't decide to 'work' and get that goddam kit out again. Nobody will get any sleep around here for three days...

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 16:09:56 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: To SB about Michael Moore
Message:
Hi Way -
My videos aren't quite the latest (SB has seen them) - I think SB might have a better selection!
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 16:17:34 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: To SB about Michael Moore
Message:
Moore wouldn't be the kind of person to have problems with the chaos of F5. In fact, he should be invited to post with questions and encouraged to explore the Internet sites. He'd probably appreciate all of its informal glory.
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 15:47:36 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Why? (a Question only for People with Knowledge)
Message:
Following up on the question below which started with the probing question 'What is the purpose of your life?' (not to be confused with 'Does your life have a purpose?) and the many stimulating replies, I wonder if anyone's ready to deal with another big one so soon afterwards. My question is 'Why?'

....... no, that's not my real question. My real question is 'Why does Maharaji still declare certain satsangs or events or whatever off-limits for new people? Is it because he purports to say something complex which requires an earlier-established 'knowledge base'? When the guy sounds more and more like a simpleton -- intentionally, apparently -- I find that hard to believe.

For example, here's the entire Visions excerpt from His recent stasang in Santa Monica:

What do I have that is truly tangible? That I can put my hands on? That I can acknowledge the presence of in my life? It's not my dreams, it's not my ideas, it's not my conversations sitting in the back of the room somewhere going, 'I wish it could be this way, and I wish it could be that way—' The only thing tangible that I have, that I can put my hands on, that I can actually say 'yes' to—that I can say, 'Yes, I have this'—is my joy. And it is the only thing that I'm going to need again and again, and again and again—and the reason for that is very, very simple: This is how I am manufactured.

When the sweet Creator created me, he placed a heart. He placed a mind. Sure, he placed a mind. But he also placed a heart. He placed in me the ability not to recognize, but what is more important, he placed in me the ability to recognize. Yes, he created eyelids, but he also created eyes. And what do you think is more important to you? If you got a scratch on your eyelid, big deal? No. No big deal. Get the same scratch in your eye, big deal? Of course, a big deal. I have seen so many times people get scratches on the eyelid, 'That was close!' Man, if that eyelid wasn't there, it would have been your eye.

So, yes. There is confusion. But then, there is clarity. Just because there is confusion, can you afford to dismiss clarity? Just because there is hate, can you afford to dismiss love? Just because there is a lot of falsehood in this world, can you afford to dismiss reality? Because there is a darkness in this world, can you afford to dismiss light? In my opinion, as humble as it may be, no. And that's what it's all about.

It is a fight to be—not not to be. To be. To be a living, thriving, joyous entity on this planet earth. Not a dead weight. Not a bunch of dead cells and live cells and dying cells and almost‑dead cells. But that's what it's about. And when something is real, it touches you, and it touches you through and through.

* * *

When people say the word 'opportunity,'— I know you have heard the word 'opportunity,' and everybody comes out and says, 'Opportunity—' but be aware who is offering you that opportunity. There are some in the world who use the word 'opportunity,' but it is no opportunity. And there are only very few who actually qualify to offer you an opportunity. When that opportunity is offered, take it.

So, in this realm of Knowledge, winters are wonderful, summers are wonderful, spring's wonderful, fall is wonderful. It just gets more and more wonderful.

Now do I understand correctly that this address was not for new people? Is this like getting a degree from Forrest Gump University or something? Whaddup?

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 02:43:03 (GMT)
From: annalee
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why? (a Question only for People with Knowledge)
Message:
thank you soooooo very much! you don't know how much i appreciate seeing the words of the master...please keep it up.
grateful!!
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 09:57:36 (GMT)
From: sargent garcia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why? (a Question only for People with Knowledge)
Message:
keep reading my friend....
all the answers r where the ?''s are...
the question is inside...
the cough/cough answer is inside...
fear ye little of what is not known..
simply read yourself, for you are the unknown diamond
awaiting 2 b discovered..being discovered..as we all..
for u, jim, r indeed the crown of perfection..
now....y...waste it on other exterior imperfections.'
when U could be relishing in your own...mirror..mira. on the wall
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 14:11:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: sargent garcia
Subject: Are we not men?
Message:
Next thing you know, you premies will be on all fours.
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 22:39:52 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why? (a Question only for People with Knowledge)
Message:
I get the impression, largely gained from the satellite broadcast of a video containing exerpts of that address, that he is rather nervous of premies reception of the new dvd line he is taking.
I think he likes to get together with a group of staunch believers. Also, there is the elitism thing of being part of the chosen few.
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 18:45:51 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why? (a Question only for People with Knowledge)
Message:
Well, first, this isn't the ENTIRE thing he said. It's only the part, heavily edited no doubt, that Visions put up for public viewing. He probably talked a lot about 'participation' and 'being synchronized' and the like, guilt-tripping premies into giving more money. That kind of think isn't appropriate for aspirants or new people, because they aren't ever told about that, until, when they aren't having any experience, they are offered 'participation' and 'gratitude' as a means of FINALLY getting what they were promised. It is no different than the Catholic Church selling indulgences in the Middle Ages. People bought them in the HOPE of getting what the religion offered, finally, because, of course, they weren't.
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 17:41:46 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why? ( Question only for People Practicing Kn?)
Message:
Why does Maharaji declare certain events off limits to events?

Jim,
Again it is so elementary. Maharaji is a very smart man.
(He is a pilot,remember.)
Now, after reading that excerpt from one of the most recent programs....Would YOU want new people to hear that?
I ask you.
It's really very simple.

Elaine

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 15:24:58 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: Everyone
Subject: M video giveaway
Message:
Brian and I have a bunch of Maharaji videos from the mid to late 90's that people have kindly sent us. Personally, I can't watch these videos more than once - if at all. So if anyone here can make use of them, I'll send them to you free of charge (I just want to get them out of my living room!) But don't say I didn't warn you.

E-mail me if you'd like one or two or ten of these videos.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 17:16:06 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: M video giveaway
Message:
How about someone/ones start up an archive of this material? You never know when the next revisionist purge will be!

(and as for the copyright - there's no law against giving stuff away is there? - only against re-sale, so why not MPEG it here, then we can all share a good laff at the Maha's latest offering)

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 23:32:58 (GMT)
From: ged
Email: ged@gedmedia.com
To: cq
Subject: M video giveaway
Message:
I have the equpment here for video capture and encoding , get the shit to me and we can stream it so that every one can see bits of it , dont send me the colourful sunsets though for fucks sake, just dish the dirt .
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 13:47:42 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Finally watched LOTU
Message:
Well my Mother's day gift to myself arrived today and I immediately put it on. It was hilarious. I enjoyed the Pie in the face scene. I can appreciate the balls that guy had to do that. I'd love for the opportunity to do it.

The press conference was interesting, he never did answer questions, I guess that is why he does not do press conferences nowadays.

And the beautiful chosen ones, they have not changed in 27 years.

I attended a 25th anniversary event with my roommate and grumrji read some of his poetry. It was so self-centered, all about you can't have the K without the M. It made me sick to my stomach, had to leave.

Can't wait for the gang to stop over one night and watch some movies. I've got one for 'em. Only thing is, they will stick up for him and defend him. I'll let you know.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 15:04:32 (GMT)
From: dan rather-check this!
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Finally watched LOTU
Message:
In reference to the LOTU video-
1)can that video, or clips from it, be put on the net?
-legally, in terms of copyrights etc., and technically?
2)it could be shown, with a short presentation of current day facts about m and his lifestyle,at 'counter programs' in cities or on college campuses in communities where premies put on programs.This update could be made for almost nothing, consisting of a few current day shots of m, with some statistics about wealth, lifestyle etc.
3)there is a satellite tv company called free speech tv, where videos can be shown nationwide.They will even pay a small fee to the producer for the rights to show it. The producer can still show it in any other way they choose at the same time.If this was shown, it could be advertised here as well as in papers.It's on the new 500 channel dish network.
4)does anyone have contact with the LOTU producer?
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 22:00:38 (GMT)
From: I GOT MINE TOO
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Finally watched LOTU
Message:
I too watched LOTU today, right after the UPS man gave it to me. Amazing. My favorite part was when M is at the Houston Airport on a stage and they put these lei's on him, he says a few words.....The lei's are removed and the flowers are taken off the string and given to the premie wolfpack. How about those expressions of the chosen few who received a flower.
What could be more beautiful.

The other funny thing was the Blue Aquarius band with Brother Ji. He just stands there and faces the band in bad clothes and dances really bad. Tooo funny. Then after watching that bad performance you get a clip of a blissed out premie telling us that the Blue Aquarius is the Best man.

It was a comedy but ho sad really.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 14:53:07 (GMT)
From: ET
Email: None
To: I GOT MINE TOO
Subject: I'm a LOTU Junkie
Message:
I have watched LOTU almost every day for the weeks I have had it. It is *great*.

Only now I find myself singing cult songs. That 'Peace Now' guy weirds me out. The Lord of Music: Bhole Ji in his gold sequin suit. The Mahatma bringing 'The message of trut' (anybody know which Mahatma this is?)

I would like to know what happened to aspirant/premie Michael who was featured.

Thank you Amazon.com.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 13:52:02 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: You are really gonna show it to premies?
Message:
That would be a real event! I wonder what they will say about the 'I'll slit his throat guy' ?
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 08:34:28 (GMT)
From: X
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: You are really gonna show it to premies?
Message:
>That would be a real event! I wonder what they will say about the 'I'll slit his throat guy' ?

Or that song 'Peace, Peac now ...'

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 21:23:57 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: why not?
Message:
I think I will wait 'til they get back from the gig in Boston next month. Tell 'em I found this on the 'net, and wanted to see what they thought of it. I'm sure that they'll defend everything. I'll let you know next month. Later.
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 21:55:22 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: why not?
Message:
It might be more effective for you to show LOTU to your premie friends just before they go off to the Boston program. Either way, it's a great plan.
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 12:34:08 (GMT)
From: zelda
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Sun yun Moon bought UPI???
Message:
Did I hear this right? The news said that some woman Thomas at the White house has resigned because Sun Yun Moon bought UPI.
color me puzzled
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 14:20:34 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: zelda
Subject: to Zelda (ot)
Message:
I read your answer to me, printed it out and then forgot to thank you on the thread about relationships between male premies and female ex's. Thanks for telling me about it. You have an interesting group of friends it seems.

Any other threads like this I would love to read.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 14:35:24 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: to Zelda (ot)
Message:
Hi Zelda -
I agree with Susan - I found your comments in that thread very interesting, and they also reminded me of some of my experiences with premie relationships in the bad old days.

Thanks,
Katie

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 19:59:36 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Katie and Susan
Subject: Peace B**b on the Love Boat
Message:
Hi
Yes it is evident that premies need to be exposed for faulty love dealings. But their objects of affection need expremie watchdogs to administer the smelling salts.

From my experience, we exs need to be as aware of this sub category as we are of the shall we say diverse business practices.

It is amazing how blind a woman or girl WITH love to give can be. On one hand she is dying to give it - all of it to somebody and the guru is portayed as THE perfect prince.
Ah but he is pretty unavailable physically- and these sharks from the old days play perfect price/cum batchelors # 1 2 3. They are pretty holy but heck if their soul mate comes along who can blame them for bieng human.
and another one bites the dust

'Being seduced by a premei' needs a thesis or somethin'
;)

Zelda

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 20:17:09 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Peace B**b on the Love Boat
Message:
In the premie house days, there were many with-in the house(incestual?)relationships. If this wasn't currently happening, it wasn't uncommon to go 'recruiting' to share that LOVE.

Slick satsang=sex

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 13:35:40 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: zelda
Subject: Sun yun Moon bought UPI???
Message:
SYM has owned the Washington Times for many years. Helen did not say why she quit, tho she has worked for upi for 57 years.
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 16:23:32 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: More on Moon and Times
Message:
The Washington Times (which Moon owns as dv mentioned) is one of the major newspapers in the city as I understand it. It developed that way during the Reagan years. It is amazing that Moon was able to develop in this way without totally discrediting the newspaper in the process, it being a major newspaper in the capitol of the country.

M'ragey is such a strong corporate player. I wonder if he gets jealous of Moon and also if he would like to move in the direction of being a tycoon (i.e., a more public figure because of his ownerships of businesses).

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 17:36:14 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Washington Times
Message:
The Washington Times really isn't a 'major' paper. It was formed in the mid-80 and is known as being an extreme right-wing paper, in line with Moon's wacko right-wing views, and is not really considered really objective journalism, at least if you consider the Washington Post to be such. The editor of the paper claims to be independent from Moon, but the Washington Times has been used for years by the far right in this country to get things published that no other paper would touch, like nonsense about Hillary Clinton murdering Vince Foster and such other crap. Once it is in a 'newspaper' other papers then are likely to pick it up. That's about all the Washington Times does. It has lost millions since it was started, and is continually bailed out by a cult.

The company that owns the Washington Times is owned by the Unification Church, Moon's organization. That same company just bought UPI, and Helen Thomas quit at the same time, although I think Helen is almost 80 and probably wanted to retire anyway.

The Unification Church also purchased the University of Bridgeport in Connecticut, which had been in financial trouble.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 19:43:25 (GMT)
From: zelda
Email: None
To: JW run dv
Subject: Washington Times
Message:
Thanks
Makaka could already have acquired some newspsper or suchlike. If he did he probably has is tucked away someplace using a donut shop as a cover.
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 20:26:33 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: zelda
Subject: LOL, Zelda, he and Homer Simpson (nt)
Message:
bwaa ha ha
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 19:40:27 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Washington Times
Message:
Thanks JW. I was going to say the same thing--the Times' circulation is not great. I have to say it has a great 'work and family' section, really excellent actually, and I have been featured in it because of being a nanny specialist (they did an article on nannies, I give the 'sound bites' on the issue alot). I felt weird about it and stated that it was a 'moonie paper' to my boss at the time who said I shouldn't speak perjoratively about other peoples' religions. I was really taken aback--one of this 'huh?' experiences as I thought we were all pretty much in agreement that cults are bad.

Anyway--you GO Helen Thomas!! She resigned from UPI but does that implicitly mean she has resigned from her job the Washington Press Corps???...I haven't read the Post yet today.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 20:25:45 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Washington Times
Message:
I don't know that I would call it a 'moonie paper' either, except in the sense that it is owned by the Unification Church. I mean, I don't think the paper promotes the Unification Church or anything like that. It is, however, editorially very right wing, and what I have read leads me to believe that they skew their news coverage with the same bent -- at least they have been willing to print things (kind of wild things) against the Clintons that other 'legitimate' papers wouldn't cover. The editor (can't remember his name)has stated several times publicly that he gets no pressure from the moonies to slant the editorials and wouldn't have taken the job if he did. On the other hand, I think it's very hard for an editor to take a position that he knows the owners of his paper would object to.
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 20:36:57 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Washington Times
Message:
I agree. It is VERY right wing and conservative editorially but of course some of the entertainment and features stuff (such as this work and family section) is excellent. The reporter who interviewed me certainly had quite a progressive attitude about child care etc.

I agree that it probably does not affect them (the staff) on a day to day operations level that it is a paper owned by Rev. Moon. And of course the articles aren't moonie propaganda, it's a very professional paper. I meant it is a moonie paper because of its owner.

Rush Limbaugh was going on today about how UPI used to be owned by Arabs--and why didn't Thomas object then, is that true? He was dissing Helen Thomas of course, and I guess he isn't going to criticize the Times' owner because it is a voice of the right wing. It's funny how Moon is the supporter of right wing conservative 'Christian' values and yet seems to spit in the face of 'democracy' when it comes to his own followers.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 20:45:39 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Washington Times
Message:
I think Moon has this weird political philosophy about godless communism and the need to oppose it everywhere. From what I understand he believes some weird conspiracy theories about evil forces in the world trying to usurp power and rule everyone, with religion and god being targets for elimination.

I have never actually listened to Rush Limbaugh, but I did read Al Franken's book 'Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot.' I rather enjoyed it.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 21:19:08 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Washington Times
Message:
I think you're right about Moon having a whole huge theory that ties the political in with the spiritual. I have a friend who is very into him. I guess the comprehensive one size fits all philosophy is attractive to the lost souls who get sucked into it.

Al Franken is funny. I guess Rush lost a lot of weight so he's not big and fat anymore, just an idiot. I don't know why but I tend to prefer to listen to talk radio rather than music in the car, which is weird, I must be a masochist--listening to Rush **AND** being in beltway hell. Could anything be worse?

My radio station has lot of talented people on it, but he is not one of them. He just seems to be a dumb and juvenile . He is really contempuous of women and minorities and doesn't make much of an effort to disguise it--cause I guess he has quite the following.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 03:21:02 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Washington Times, JW/Helen
Message:
JW, what is the 'relatvely insignificant circulation' (paraphrased) of the Washington Times. (And what is the DC area's population- is it 4 mill?) I see Wash Times journalists occasionally on nat'l tv. It has some kind of clout to acheive that, especially in these days of Internet Drudgery.

Buying the U of Bridgeport is a step beyond Smalleville Community. Money talks. Think about it. Reagan had LaRouche's people in the White House in his early years.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 03:54:22 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Washington Times, JW/Helen
Message:
I don't know what the circulation is, but I read it's very small in comparison to the Washington Post. It has lost millions since it started, and only survives because Moon bails it out. It isn't very difficult to get on national TV if you are in the beltway, a journalist, and market yourself to the networks.
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 23:33:30 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Ever Listen to Dr. Laura Schlesinger??
Message:
I have listened to her, just to see what all the hubub is, and I have LOTS of opinions. She is a very nasty woman. I think she is a dominatrix, but more on that only if you are interested. :)
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 11:18:01 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Ever Listen to Dr. Laura Schlesinger??
Message:
Tell me what you really think, JW!
As I said, she does real harm in her stance about homosexuality. And she is mean. But sometimes I think she hits the nail on the head. I read that info about Proctor and Gamble too. What she says about gays IS outrageous.

I think you are right that people feel smugly good about themselves when she validates their fundamentalism. But for someone like me who grew up with absolutely NO sense of right and wrong, I've learned some things from her.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 18:18:14 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen, I'm interested....
Message:
Helen,

This was something of a small project of mine. I'm on the board of the local chapter of GLAAD, and so I had been hearing all this criticism of the show, so I listened for a total of seven days, not all in a row, to hear for myself. What I wrote are my reactions to her show, which I think is dreadful, for more reasons than the stuff she says about gays.

I'm interested, Helen -- what value do you get out of the show?

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 20:37:52 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Helen, I'm interested....
Message:
I loved hearing what you had to say about Dr. Laura, JW, and I am not the least bit offended that you had the reaction. (Just thought I should say that right up front). There *IS* something very preverse about her and abotu the way her fans fawn all over her.

She reminds me of this one professor in graduate school who I despised. He was a priest and a lawyer (I went to Catholic University) and taught a course on Philosophy. He actually slapped me on the butt one time! He was a sexist arrogant jerk. He made people feel HORRIBLE. One student ended up having a nervous breakdown after taking his course. I saw him verbally abuse other students.

BUT I learned a lot in his class. He made me THINK.

Much like I have learned a lot from Dr. laura. I just listened to her on the way home from work and she was having one of her horrible days where she just went off on everyone.

How she has helped me is this: Her message about taking control of one's life really hits home to me. And her attitudes about children, and their need for security. I'll write more later, I have to be somewhere.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 01:34:11 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: More on Dr. Laura
Message:
I guess I am the lone wolf on this thread talking about the value of Dr. Laura's show. Beleive me, I am not a 'fan' and I don't fawn over her. She is a bit insane and I think you made some great points about her abusive way of dealing with people beign titilating and a sick form of entertainment for her listeners. Beleive me, my friend and I talk about this all the time.

But I do listen to her show when it's on during my commute.I pay attention to alot of what she has said about parenting and about families.

Her book, 'Ten Stupid Things WOmen Do to Mess Up Their Lives' and a similar one for men are very good I think. People do stupid things that mess up their lives and then have to repair the damage later (and some things can't be fixed). I know that blaming the person for their mistakes is not constructive, but people still need to acknowledge their mistakes if they are going to try to make their situation better. And recognize that they did something damaging or dumb. I guess I did a lot of damaging, dumb things in my youth.

When my husband was in treatment for alcoholism and I almost left him, Dr. Laura's message about how much divorce fucks children up, helped me to stay in the marriage, even though it FELT horrible at the time. Fortunately things are great now, but I could have make a horrible mistake if my goal had been for my instant gratification rather than for the long term benefit of keeping my family intact.

I think that we have gotten off track as a society in the way that we care for children. I have seen too much as a child care specialist especially within the demographic group that uses nannies as a child care option. The long hours away from the home on the part of mothers and fathers with high powered jobs is so fragmenting to a family.

Even Ellen Galinsky's recent book (Galinsky is a very liberal 'guru' in the work-family field and I admire her work very much), which is made up of interviews with kids, says that what kids want is to spend more time with their parents. Alot of people don't have choices, but alot of couples do have the choice for either the mom or the dad to cut back on hours spent at work and to be there for the kids. Kids don't need 'quality time' --although that is great, too--they need quantity time, just hanging out at home, eating meals with their families, being bonded to mom and dad. If you talk to kids that's what they tend to say.

As a child care specialist it became very difficult for me to be 'values-free' in the way that I approached counseling families about their child care options. For example a mom SOme wanted her infant cared for by a nanny 16 hours a day, I am not talking about poor single moms, I am talking about someone in medical school. When so much depends of a baby's future development depends upon the first months of life, I think that a person should put a medical school residency or similarly disruptive endeavor on the back burner until the baby is older at least. (and alot of studies say that the quality of infant care in our country is woefully inadequate).

The big variable in all the child care quality studies seems to be the quality of the child's relationship with its parents. If the child has such a relationship and is in poor quality day care, the relationship can mitigate the negative effects of the care. The worst case scenario is kids who are 1) poorly attached to their paretns either because the paretns can't be bothered or have alot of problems, who are also in 2) low quality child care. They are the kids most at risk. You might think that these at risk kids are in the lower income bracket but not necessarily. Most day care is pretty bad, across demographics. There is alot of terrific day care too, I am just stating a fact that studies (like the Carnegie study several years back) say that most day care in the U.S. is hurting in quality. Anyway all this research, which I read and write about alot, seems to all point towards the quality of a child's realtionship with his or her paretns as the biggest determinor in the kid's quality of learning and emotional health. And to be involved with their kids takes time. I just think we have gone insane with this obsession with more and more stuff, bigger cars, bigger homes, etc, and what it takes to make the money to pay for that stuff. It's a matter of priorities.

Listening to Dr. Laura helped me to consciously choose to find a way to cut my career back to part time so I could make my kid my first priority. I felt much better once I consciously made parenthood my priority. I guess a lot of mothers , liberal and conservative alike, feel indebted to Dr. Laura for helping them unload this tremendous guilt off of their shoulders--the pressure that they SHOULD have a high powered career and be supermom too. That is such a damaging myth--the supermom myth--and never before have women been expected to do so much. You can only cut yourself up in so many pieces and alot of women are under enormous pressure, working full time and then coming home to the 'second shift'--child rearing and housework. I just couldn't do that supermom thing anymore, even though I still brought work home twice this week, and it gets crazy sometimes. It's probably sick that we needed Dr. Laura to affirm our decision to make the kids and family our first priorities but there was so much pressure on women my age (at least in my mileau growing up) to be super achievers.

On the down side, Dr. laura does not give advice, she lectures people with her opinions. The show is a platform for her to lecture and nag people. My husband, who is a really talented therapist, does not like her style at all. She doesn't do what a therapist ought to do, which is to help the client find their own way, she lectures them to do it her way! But Gary does think that the psycho therapeutic field has gone too much in a direction of being 'values-free'. I am not saying that counselors should moralize to clients, but help clients find where the holes in their moral code are causing some of their problems. An example--a person whose life is totally out of control beause they are having an affair, or are in trouble with the law for hurting someone (my husband has a lot of court-ordered clients).

Okay enough pontificating. Off to watch the season finale of E.R. and lust after that cute doctor whose supposed to be from Kosovo. He is a hunk--have you seen him?

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 14:56:04 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Good posts,Helen/Monmot (nt)
Message:
om
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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:35:45 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: More on Dr. Laura
Message:
I have a friend who's a psychologist/guidance counselor at a private school, and she pretty much echos what you've said. She said it gets pretty scary as adolescence hits, when all sorts of acting out begin to manifest, e.g., eating disorders, cutting, etc. I like your point about quantity time v. quality time, because it seems like, for the kids, quantity time is quality time. Even if the parents and kid(s) are not interacting, but are together each doing their thing, that it's a reassuring feeling for the kid(s) to have the parents around.
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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 03:46:19 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: More on Dr. Laura
Message:
And it's surprising how much teenagers still need their parents. They might not even be interacting with them all that much, but they might be in the car being driven somewhere and all of a sudden they open up to the parent. Parents of teens just have to take it on faith that their efforts to love their kids are makign a difference.

I think it's even more important in the teen years for parents to be around--especially in the afternoons after school when alot of stuff--drugs, drinking--goes on.

I knew a professor in grad school in the family studies dept. who pretty much debunked the 'quality time' myth in a dissertation. She had six kids too and managed to be with them a lot. How do people do it--I don't know--but I respect their efforts to make it work.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 04:07:06 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: More on Dr. Laura
Message:
I don't know how parents do it either (I'm not one). I've met some incredible kids/teens and I always make it a point to tell the parents how impressed I am by their kids, and how much I appreciate what a good job they've done. Not an easy job, and I don't think it gets any easier as the kids get older. Just a whole new set of stuff to deal with.

When I was 14, I got stuck in a car in a snowstorm for almost 14 hours with my father, and it was really the only time I had a 'real' conversation with him, except when he was dying (10 years ago today, as a matter of fact). I asked him all the stuff I wanted to know, and he pretty much answered all my questions. Plus I learned a lot about him as a human, rather than just my father--I was lucky now that I think of it to have had that time.

Being a teenager is scary and it's vital they have some boundaries to bounce against. All those ideals bumping up against the 'real' world, which is more than willing and able to corrode their sensibilities.

I read somewhere that we get more information in one day than anyone in the Middle Ages got in their lifetime. I know it sure feels like it sometimes.

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 02:50:59 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: demon technology
Message:
Yikes-- we get more info in one day than a person in the Middle Ages got in a lifetime. It is just astonishing isn't it? We have all this hardware too, palm pilots, cell phones, internet access all the time,,,,I guess it's the capitalistic way of always needing to be plugged in because an opportunity might pass us by....

I think I am averse to change sometimes. My husband and daughter gave me a cell phone for Mother's Day and I still haven't taken it out of the box. I know once I do, I will be opening pandora's box. Then I can try to get even more stuff done in day making calls while sitting onthe beltway. Get thee behind me demon technology!!

Like the internet, Once I found it, there was no turning back! Has it really made my life better though? I heard someone say the internet is like a big library of useful information except all the books are spread out all over the floor. SO much time is wasted going around from site to site trying to find what you're looking for, like Alice through the looking glass.

It's great you had that talk with your dad before he died. I remember very fondly tromping around the woods with my environmentalist dad as a child, and having him teach me the name of every plant.

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 05:10:06 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: demon technology--good name for it
Message:
I just got a cell phone myself, and I always keep it turned off. My husband gave it to me and jokingly calls it my electronic cuff because he knows I like to be a free range chicken. I witnessed a big car accident last week and a bunch of us stopped and everyone whipped out a cell phone. Even people stuck in traffic had their cell phones out and were yelling out to us that they were calling the police. The cops must've gotten 15 calls for the same accident. Then this guy whipped out his business cards with his picture on it and handed them out saying he as an actor. Who needs acid when this goes on?

Your dad was ahead of his time, being an environmentalist. I don't think our generation had much time with our dads.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 02:24:37 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: JW and Helen
Subject: Ever Listen to Dr. Laura Schlesinger??
Message:
JW,
I have a good (ex-premie) friend that is THE best pyscho-therapist----just a natural for her----her take on Dr.Laura was that she serves a purpose. Purpose being that she deals with the one in a hundred of her callers and the ones that get thru have been screened to fall into her specifications. She is a 'moral guide' my friend said. Those that call up are really just needing some clear,moral direction to 'set them straight' on one problem. Period. No long term counseling going on there. Just confused people that need a quick compass.

That wasn't all that insightful and she could have said more herself,but that was what I remembered. Her feelings were alittle comtempuous for sure, alittle jealous. Since, Dr. Laura was getting so much attention from people that thought she was so wonderful. My friend kind of felt, I thought, ' give Dr. L a big problem like I deal with all day and lets see who's better.'

Just an insight,Elaine

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 01:57:55 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: she's a nice little Jewish girl (ot)
Message:
I have mentioned Dr. Laura here A LOT. Yes she is extremely aggressive (she really gets off on dominating people) and is a religious fundamentalist so everything is black and white for her.

I think she is brilliant though and she HAS influenced me a lot I am almost embarrassed to say. I think she has influenced me because I grew up in such an amoral atmosphere, and she is such a stickler for morality. She really trashes the 'if it feels good do it' mentality that we boomers grew up in,and is a stickler for manners, doing the right thing even if it doesn't *feel* good, etc. While she is a proponent of manners (like just suck it up and get along with your mother in law, for example) she herself does not use good manners with listeners who call into her show. She totally trashes them if she is having a bad day--I am convinced she has some pretty extreme highs and lows--can be a pit bull.

She completely trashes day care, which is ridiculous, but she does have a point with her new book 'Parenthood by Proxy' which talks about how we've lost it in terms of putting our careers ahead of our kids (which I agree with).

She has a bit of a guru complex herself, giving out 'I'm a Dr. Laura Warrior' T-shirts to listeners who do 'the right thing' in her eyes.Can you imagine the balls she has to give those out--the hubris?

Her stance about homosexuality is where she is doing real HARM, IMO. She believes that since the Bible (the first four books of the Bible--the Torah) says that homosexuality is evil, then homosexuals should be celebate. She also beleives that they can be changed through these programs in which gays can supposedly be reprogrammed to be hetero--such b.s. She has changed her tune on this--she used to be much more accepting of gays but I guess as she got squeezed into more and more fundamentalism, she changed her tune.

A friend of mine and I (both of us are religious and devoted to our families but more liberal than she) are fascinated with her--we both have love hate relationships with her.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 03:51:37 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: This is what I think -- Dr. Laura
Message:
Okay, I listened to her for a week. It was real scary.

What I saw her do was fume at the behavior of her callers, ridicule them, and coax them to tell all -- only to lash out at them. Like a father confessor on acid, she extended an offer of salvation that was scarcely perceptible beneath her contempt and anger. Then, in an abrupt flip, she would sometimes make fun of her own excessed by asking callers whether they want more abuse or had enough. I found the shows like watching a car wreck. I was simultaneously fascinated and repulsed. What is going on here, I thought?

My conclusion is that Dr. Laura offers sadomasochism under the guise of inspiration, instruction and self help. I think part of the appeal derives from the malicious joy taken in the suffering of others. I think listeners relish the ritual humiliation meted out by the austere and forbidding Dr. Laura, enjoying the dominatrix act from the safety of their own homes.

And I think her callers get what most Americans feel the never get enough of: attention. They get to be on the radio. They get yelled at and thus get their lives validated, like kids who misbehave to get noticed. I think the callers turn to her not so much because they think their lives are messed up, but for assurance that they have lives worth talking about.

She is also like a cult leader. She offers the reassurance that if you obey her precepts, everything will be fine. Her defense of the orthodox relieves the fear a lot of people have about living in a world where ethical and moral standards are in flux. There are no gray areas in what she says. No ambiguities, just replay of titillation and tirade, triade and titillation.

I heard her tell a girl who called up seeking guidance about an unplanned pregnancy, something like: 'What did you think you were doing? You had sexual relations with your boyfriend, who you knew was using drugs. Did you think he was going to act responsibly if you got pregnant.'

What that girl got was not advice. What she got was admonition and castigation, and certainly no comfort. Dr. Laura isn't about advice and comfort. She's about being cruel to people who call up with problems.

I think the other thing is the exhilaration people derive from the problems the callers talk about is not so different from the emotions evoked by sexual pronography. Her language is designed to get people excited. She talks about a world of sexual stimulation, cloaked with the righteousness of virtue. I think she's little more than a pornographer who peddles the sins of the flesh instead of the flesh itself.

What she has to say about gays is pretty dangerous and outrageous. To Dr. Laura, heterosexuals sometimes 'act' bad, homosexuals generally 'are' bad. She claims science as well as God on her side. She says that if you are gay or lesbian, it's a biological error and inhibits you from relating to the opposite sex. And she thinks gay rights aren't necessary. I heard her say, 'Rights? For sexual deviants...there are no rights.' She also continues the outrageous false stereotype that gay people are pedophiles. She claims homosexuals can be 'cured' all of which has been scientifically disproven.

I think thereis anotherpart of her message, too, however. The unarticulated message to heterosexual listeners is: bad as you are, you are not a biological mistake, as stupidly as you might have acted you are not a devient, like homosexuals are. Her profound homophobia is not simply that she is against gay parents or gay marriage, but that she continually uses homosexuality to reassure her straight listeners that they are not all that terrible.

I did read today that Procter & Gamble is withdrawing sponsorship of her show because of her outrageous and dangerous comments.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 15:45:33 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re:This is what I think -- Dr. Laura
Message:
JW,

You should send a copy of your impressions to Paramount. What you have said is all true, but I don't think Paramount gets it yet.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:52:34 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: For Paramount, The Bottom Line Is The Bottom Line
Message:
I used to work at Paramount, and if the lucre is flowing in and the Neilsen's are high, they'll keep it. I gather there's a TV show either in the offing, or already up and playing. I can't stand Dr. Flawra, so I don't know. But if you want to send a letter, I'll give you the names of people to contact.
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 17:44:46 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: For Paramount, The Bottom Line Is The Bottom Line
Message:
Monmot,

A few installments of Dr. Laura's TV show have already been taped. The story goes that an audience about two weeks ago who had showed up for a taping of the Leeza Gibbons show, were surprised to learn that Leeza's show had been cancelled and they were going to get Dr. Laura instead! The rapport between Dr. Laura and the audience was zilch. The taping went horribly, but Paramount is still stubbornly seeing dollars signs. They are trying to present the show as centering around 'good parenting' specifically. So, obviously, they are all idiots over there, because the don't understand which audience to target and how to avoid controversy while maintaining the interest level. You really can't tone her down and maintain her appeal, in just the same way as a politically correct Jerry Springer or a sweet, polite Judge Judy would be doomed to failure. Wouldn't it be great if the Dr. Laura show fails miserably, and for the right reasons.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 17:55:50 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: For Paramount, The Bottom Line Is The Bottom Line
Message:
I'd like to see Dr. Flawra flop, no doubt about it. I joke with my friends who still work there that Paramount is built on a Native American burial ground (we refer to P as NABG), because so much bad stuff goes on there, both in output and the internal politics of the place. Still, the bottom line rules there, so if there's no chemistry, and the sponsors pull, then Dr. Flawra's show will have a short run. Springer lets his guests abuse each other, while Schlesinger does the abusing herself, an entirely different dynamic, and one I would hope the audience won't cotton to.
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 15:33:02 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: This is what I think -- Dr. Laura
Message:
I agree with everything JW said...except I wanted to point out one thing.
That young girl that got pregnant - types like her - sometimes need an obnoxious wake up call - as in 'WHAT WERE YOU THINKING???!!!'

It's like their thinking is cockeyed or just not even there!!!
And they're drunken idiot parents are absolutely not there to wake them up to the dangerous course they're taking.

That's the ONLY redeeming thing I have seen so far in Dr L's show.

I stopped listening - even for the shock entertainment when she said her outrageuosly stupid things about gays. That was the end for me.

Elaine

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 15:39:06 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: This is what I think -- Dr. Laura
Message:
Yeah, maybe the girl made a stupid mistake...but she had already made it and what was she to do now? Dr. Laura didn't offer any help, just basically said she got what she deserved. What kind of 'help' is that?

I understand Dr. Laura is begining a TV show in September. Somehow I think her cruelty won't translate well to television. That might be a big mistake for her.

JW -- a biological error.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:18:59 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: This is what I think -- Dr. Laura
Message:
My God,
Did you see her in an interview with gentle-little-man Charlie Gibson on Good Morning Am???
Right from the start she sat like a coy tigress ready to attack and humiliate.The glint in her eye was pure 'enjoyment of mean'
Charlie was just asking regular questions - and she pummelled him needlessly - just out of pure one-upmanship.

She had some porno pictures from a marriage of hers - never saw them. Guess they were scandalous for a media minute.
But, you know if Jerry can be a success - she'll play great on TV - a shame.
Elaine

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 00:20:52 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: This is what I think -- Dr. Laura
Message:
Elaine
The porno pictures weren't from a marriage of hers, they were from an affair, which makes it WORSE (for the sake of her holier than thou image).
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:27:03 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: This is what I think -- Dr. Laura
Message:
Yeah, but Jerry Springer isn't the one being cruel. He lets the guests fight it out and acts as a sort of referee, egging them on for sure, but not dealing out cruelty. I think it's another thing when the host herself is the one being cruel. I think audiences might accept that on the radio, because it's more disembodied and removed, but I'm not so sure that will work on television.
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:35:11 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Got it.Good point. (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 10:45:52 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: This is what I think -- Dr. Laura
Message:
JW -
I cannot stand Dr. Laura. She's unbelievably RUDE to people - and she (she says this) is supposed to be setting an example. I also think that the more popular she gets, the more megalomaniac she gets - it's her way or the highway. I have heard that she's unbelievably rude in person, too.

I used to have to listen to her at work because the college students I worked with really liked listening to her as ENTERTAINMENT. They just laughed through the whole show, and made jokes about her so-called 'philosophy'. She just made me angry, so we had to have one room that was a Dr. Laura-free zone :). Basically, I think she's popular because she's a 'shock jock'.

I honestly don't understand why people call in to her show, or how people can listen to her. Maybe it's like the old fire-and-brimstone sermons that people used to go to once a week. Anyway, she seems to be losing it - we can only hope!

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 08:04:13 (GMT)
From: 2INCHROACH
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Dr. Laura
Message:
'I did read today that Procter & Gamble is withdrawing sponsorship of her show because of her outrageous and dangerous comments. '
I'M BUYING MORE SOAP.

I AGREE WITH YOU JW. YOU'RE A GOOD MAN. SHE'S SCARY AS HELL. I HEARD HER JUST THE OTHER DAY SAYING SOMETHING LIKE IF HER KID BRINGS HOME A NEW PENCIL SHE WANTS TO KNOW WHERE IT CAME FROM. NOSY BITCH. PSYCHO POWER TRIP. SHE'D BE GREAT ON THIS FORUM.
FIT RIGHT IN.

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