Monmot -:- Strange Fruit (OT) -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 18:44:42 (GMT)

__ Nigel -:- New-age psychobollocks strikes again! (nt) -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 08:40:49 (GMT)

__ Elaine -:- Susan/Helen don't read above post... -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:08:02 (GMT)

__ cq -:- Why the hell should a 10-year-old need rebirthing? -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 19:08:06 (GMT)

__ __ Monmot -:- Good Question -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 19:26:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- Nightmare? -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 19:42:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Nightmare? -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 19:52:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Safe sex? -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:11:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Cont[in]ents of Latex -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 04:47:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Cont[in]ents of Latex -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 10:32:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Correction -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:02:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- I was wondering . . . -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 21:25:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- I was wondering . . . -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 22:58:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- No, not the family with the dog called Rover . . . -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 13:12:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- French letter? (nt) -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:12:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- I'm Afraid To Ask What A French Letter Is... (nt) -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:22:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Porquoi? C'est pas un johnny cum lately? ... (nt) -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:26:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Est-ce qu'il un Dick et Jane condom? ... -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:32:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ Powerman -:- Good Question -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 19:42:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Heidi -:- Everything I am today, I owe to rebirthing. -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:05:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Everything I am today, I owe to rebirthing. -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:48:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Good Question -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:00:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Heidi -:- Very Cultish Indeed! -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:20:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Very Cultish Indeed! -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:24:20 (GMT)

cq -:- Have I been missing something here? -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 17:19:17 (GMT)

__ Daneane -:- Have I been missing something here? -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 17:26:27 (GMT)

__ __ SB -:- Have I been missing something here? -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 22:38:29 (GMT)

__ __ Katie -:- Send me your address... -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:48:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ Daneane -:- Send me your address... -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 00:24:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Send me your address... -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 15:02:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Wow!! -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 00:23:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Forgot the 'g' -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 00:33:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ Elaine -:- Send me your address... -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:59:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Snicker! (ot) -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 15:05:30 (GMT)

__ __ Susan -:- WOW... -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 18:28:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ Daneane -:- An e-mail from Visions -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 18:35:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- An e-mail from Visions - says it all: -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 19:16:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Angry -:- An e-mail from Visions/Fantastic! and Thanks -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 18:47:46 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- ... he/she said that??? -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 18:10:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jethro -:- It's all revisionism -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 15:46:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- Thank you, Mahatma Chunderanand! -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 17:53:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Helen -:- It's all revisionism -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 19:35:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Thanks and high.... -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 01:26:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Thanks and high.... -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 01:59:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You have 'Satguru Has Come'? -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 16:39:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Family of Love -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 12:40:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- You have 'Satguru Has Come'? -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 01:25:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Susan -:- this is one of the most damning things IMHO -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 16:29:24 (GMT)

__ __ Paul -:- I think that anyone who received knowledge in -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 18:01:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Time to dig out some more stuff? -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 22:17:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Paul -:- Time to dig out some more stuff? -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:00:12 (GMT)

Daneane -:- Whining -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 16:42:57 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- in the old days -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 16:40:45 (GMT)

__ __ Daneane -:- Heavy stuff -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 00:07:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- and when in 10 years time he hides his present(nt) -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 17:44:40 (GMT)

__ Helen -:- Whining -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 22:57:30 (GMT)

__ cq -:- Whine? Whynot? -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:25:04 (GMT)

__ __ Stonor -:- Whine? Whynot? To be and ignore? or To do and whi? -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 02:27:08 (GMT)

Paul -:- Here's an Avatar you'll enjoy.... -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:42:47 (GMT)

Doin' da Rawat Shuffle -:- re: AJW's simple Question -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:40:23 (GMT)

__ an EX -:- re: AJW's simple Question -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 16:40:04 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- actually Dog tried to -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 16:10:43 (GMT)

__ __ Deputy Dog -:- My answer to Way, r.e. Wrong Answer DD -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 17:01:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ Gregg -:- My answer to Way, r.e. Wrong Answer DD -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 17:34:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ Way -:- Re:My answer to Way, r.e. Wrong Answer DD -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 17:28:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ An Occassional Observer -:- My answer to Way, r.e. Wrong Answer DD -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 17:28:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Good point OO. -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 17:38:49 (GMT)

__ __ AJW -:- Hi Susan -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 16:18:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ henrik -:- The answer to AWJ 's question -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 01:16:54 (GMT)

Joker -:- M's long lost cousin??? a humorous link -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 14:37:43 (GMT)

Forum Administrator -:- Request from Australia -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 08:12:26 (GMT)

__ Basher Williams -:- Request from Australia -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 07:53:13 (GMT)

__ __ JW -:- Question -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 16:52:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ Nigel -:- Question -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 22:19:08 (GMT)

__ __ raina -:- If i say cherries? -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 18:33:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ Basher Williams -:- If i say cherries? -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 15:08:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ raina -:- If i say cherries? -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 15:24:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Rosie Lee -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 16:02:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- Rosie Lee -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 23:45:16 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- Bullshit from Australia -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 10:00:50 (GMT)

__ __ An Occassional Observer -:- you're the usual coward! -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 09:04:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ Basher Williams -:- you're the usual Cowboys! -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 11:21:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- You DO have a problem, don't you? -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 11:09:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Basher Williams -:- You DO have a problem, don't you? -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 15:06:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Collecting insults is part of the fun. -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 18:27:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Basher Williams -:- Collecting insults is part of the fun. -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 14:08:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- 'Vacuous prat' is BEST YET! -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 21:56:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- vaccuous prat? -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 19:00:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Hey cq: got a Stevie Wonder lyric sheet? -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 22:44:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ SB -:- you're the usual Cowboys! And SO WHAT???? -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 01:53:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ raina -:- it's like aa dramatic moment from The Beach -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 06:28:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Basher Williams -:- it's like aa dramatic moment from The Beach -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 15:11:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- o-no u weren't there! -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 16:03:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- now there'sa nice culty movie for the kidz here to -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 15:45:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ An Occassional Observer -:- Like I said..... -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 14:33:00 (GMT)

__ raina -:- I don't hear an aussie accent -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:27:36 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- I don't hear an aussie accent -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 08:04:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ raina -:- observation police? -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 10:22:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're so full of shit, Raina -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 20:21:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ raina -:- I could have sworn he meant to say 'bothered' -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 20:49:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- He DID mean 'bothered'..... and why not? -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 21:10:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- He DID mean 'bothered'..... and why not? -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 00:44:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- If you mean that, you're to be pitied -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 01:55:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- yes. i have asked myself this question -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 05:03:52 (GMT)

__ __ AJW -:- Raina, you're so suspicious of everything -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:40:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- I'm paranoid and nobody's following me :( (nt) -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 17:26:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Daneane -:- so you think.....(o)(o) (nt) -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 00:29:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- oh ... well that's alright then ['] ['] (nt) -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 12:44:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Put your shirt back on! -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 20:23:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Canadian Humor doesn't suck(ot) -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 00:33:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Well it made me laugh... -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 11:56:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Canadian Humor doesn't suck(ot) -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 00:45:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Too funny -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 02:25:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Too funny -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 03:01:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ me again -:- Too funny -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 03:05:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Big Butt Bertha -:- LOL Excellent ( ! ) nt -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 03:32:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ raina -:- UAIASOH (almost sample #2-but too emotional) -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:52:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- UAIASOH (almost sample #2-but too emotional) -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 22:19:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ raina -:- don't you want to know what UAIASOH means? -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 20:04:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- don't you want to know what UAIASOH means? -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 23:47:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- favor? -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 00:53:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Advice -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 16:51:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- The only bad vice is AD vice.... -:- Sun, May 21, 2000 at 21:43:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- The only bad vice is AD vice.... -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 15:51:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- Exactly! -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 00:16:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- If only I were English! -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 16:43:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Free advice for Raina -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 01:26:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- note the hostility -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 02:55:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- note the bizarre, hyper-paranoid freakism -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 04:06:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- note the bizzebody, hyping-freakism -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 05:44:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- to raina -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 15:58:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- true -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 00:25:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- to raina -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 23:36:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- totally! -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 00:28:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- totally! -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 00:43:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- example of what a rotten f-o-s friend i am........ -:- Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:31:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Used to bvelieve that too, have you ever REALLY -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 17:45:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Good, so long as we understand each other -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 08:27:49 (GMT)

__ __ Elaine -:- I don't hear an aussie accent -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:35:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ raina -:- this isn't an exam elaine! -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:39:01 (GMT)

__ Prabupradra -:- Request from Australia -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 08:23:21 (GMT)

Sam -:- Where have I been -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:01:41 (GMT)

__ AJW -:- Da Da Da Der, Da Da Der... -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 13:09:31 (GMT)

__ __ Sam -:- Thanks -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 03:15:09 (GMT)

__ Angry -:- Where have I been -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 09:32:49 (GMT)

__ la-ex -:- Where have I been -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:46:41 (GMT)

__ Nigel -:- Where have I been -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:31:50 (GMT)

__ Robyn -:- Where have I been -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:13:36 (GMT)

Nigel -:- Hey guys! Let's do the experiment right here! -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 01:45:40 (GMT)

__ cq -:- They're all from the 90s Maha - bar 5 and 6? -:- Mon, May 22, 2000 at 18:46:21 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- I'd only be guessing randomly -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 20:25:55 (GMT)

__ G -:- Hey guys! Let's do the experiment right here! -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:42:49 (GMT)

__ Anon -:- Hey guys! Let's do the experiment right here! -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 11:32:40 (GMT)

__ Mahatma Bungeejumpanandji -:- Hey guys! Let's do the experiment right here! -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 03:50:45 (GMT)

__ Elaine B. -:- Hey guys! Let's do the experiment right here! -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:02:30 (GMT)

__ __ gerry -:- Hey guys! Let's do the experiment right here! -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 14:58:38 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- We have a contestant! -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:08:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ Elaine B. -:- We have a contestant! -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:18:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- We have more contestants! -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 12:56:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- We have more contestants! -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 01:04:19 (GMT)

JHB -:- Darshan Line Extortion -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 23:33:02 (GMT)

__ Sam -:- Darshan Line Extortion -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 01:34:00 (GMT)

Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 18:44:42 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Strange Fruit (OT) Message:

Well, they certainly took care of this poor girl's problems. Please peruse this uplifting article from ABC News: Girl Dies in ‘Rebirthing’ Therapy Session Four Arrested After 10-Year-Old Suffocates in Sheet The Associated Press G O L D E N, Colo., May 19 — Four people were arrested after a ten year-old girl suffocated while undergoing therapy intended to simulate birth, the sheriff’s office said. Candace Newmaker was rolled up in a flannel sheet during the treatment at Connell Watkins and Associates in Evergreen and died of asphyxiation, the coroner said. Both ends of the sheet were twisted above the girl’s head and large pillows were placed around her head. It was supposed to represent the womb. Connell Watkins, the center’s owner, told authorities she and three others pressed on the pillows to simulate labor contractions and encouraged Candace to push her way out. Candace and her mother, Jeane Newmaker, came from Durham, N.C., to the counseling center for the April 18 session. The therapy is intended to enable troubled children to heal from past trauma by struggling out of the covering and being “reborn.” Charges of Child Abuse Newmaker said she adopted Candace in 1996 and had sought several different treatments for her, including help for depression and attention deficit disorder. She said she contracted with Watkins for a two-week intensive program for $7,000. Julie Ponder, 39, a therapist who was leading the session, and the others called paramedics after they unrolled the blanket and found that Candace wasn’t breathing. She died at a hospital the next day. Ponder along with Brita St. Clair, 41, the center’s business manager; and Jack McDaniel 47, an intern, were charged Thursday with child abuse resulting in death. Each was jailed on $250,000 bond. An arrest warrant was also issued for Watkins, 53, who was not immediately taken into custody. Ponder said she didn’t know Candace was having problems during the session. McDaniel and St. Clair were helping her while the girl’s mother talked to her daughter and Watkins videotaped the session. The Jefferson County Sheriff’s Office said the videotape shows that Candace complained several times that she couldn’t breathe and told them she had to vomit, authorities said.

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 08:40:49 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: liverpool.ac.uk To: Monmot Subject: New-age psychobollocks strikes again! (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:08:02 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Susan/Helen don't read above post... Message:

I'm sorry I'm exhibiting co-depentent behaviour - and of course, control issues. But, I am practicing - 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.' The previous post is very upsetting. Maybe you can take it - but, please tell me if you read a post like this first - it's just too much. Sigh, Elaine

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 19:08:06 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Why the hell should a 10-year-old need rebirthing? Message:

Why the hell should a 10-year-old need rebirthing? Jesus H Christ on a crutch ... Talking of bad jokes, here's a stinker: Michael Jackson and the doctor are walking out of the delivery room after his wife gives birth to their son. Michael says, 'How long before we can have sex?' The doctor says, 'At least wait until he's walking.'

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 19:26:53 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: cq Subject: Good Question Message:

I think some kids get pathologized (by parents/schools etc.) because they don't fit into the Dick/Jane/Spot scenario. Why these therapists and the mother thought that inducing yet another trauma would heal past trauma is what eludes me. Actually, I think the Dick/Jane/Spot dream is a nightmare.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 19:42:20 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Nightmare? Message:

huh?

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 19:52:23 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: cq Subject: Nightmare? Message:

Obviously the Dick and Jane I knew have grown up and are not practicing safe sex. Oh well.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:11:30 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Safe sex? Message:

Safe sex? Ask the pope ... 'a sword fastened upon his loins in the sheath thereof; and as he went forth it fell out.' http://happyclown.com/vatican.html or alternatively http://goofball.com/news/condom_reef.html Condom Reef Discovered Submitted by: Paul Hogan Sydney, Australia Oceanographic scientists say they have discovered a vast, floating 'reef' of the world's disposed condoms in the middle of the South Pacific, about halfway between Tahiti and Antarctica. The phenomenal mass is almost two miles long, an eighth of a mile wide, and in places up to 60 feet deep, the oceanographers say. Mason Froule, Australian marine biologist at his country's Oceanographic Laboratory Outpost on Macquarie Island, South Pacific, said the bizarre accumulation is explained by a scientific term called 'like aggregation'-- that is, the massing of similar objects over short or longer periods of time due to wind or ocean currents, magnetic fields, buoyancy and other conditions. 'It's fairly common in the world's oceans,' he said: natural events such as red tides, for example, are instances of 'like aggregation.' 'People with pets that shed lots of hair can see it in their own homes,' Froule added. 'The dog sheds everywhere in the room, but after falling out, the fur soon collects in a few clumps and masses.' Froule said ocean 'reefs' of styrofoam and detergent residues have been observed in the South Pacific and elsewhere for many years, but they are usually broken up by storms before they become large or hazardous. He believes the huge concentration of condoms, not reported before, is more resilient than other 'aggregating' ocean materials, and may have been developing for decades. Froule said parts of the newly discovered reef are matted together so densely that 'you could almost land a plane on it.' 'I suppose it would be funny if it didn't pose the hazard it does to marine life and navigation,' Froule stated. 'I pity any freighter, submarine, or dolphin, for that matter, that might run into it.' The biologist said he and his Australian scientific colleagues will have the reef mapped by satellite and monitored from now on to see if it expands, breaks up, or drifts from its current location (reported at 63 degrees latitude and 154 degrees longitude). Froule said there would not be much point in trying to break up the pulpy mass with explosives or other devices. 'It seems pretty indestructible,' he said. The world's industrialized nations are estimated to consume and dispose of nearly 300 million condoms a year. Industry analysts say about a third of the discards become waterborne.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 04:47:41 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: cq Subject: Cont[in]ents of Latex Message:

cq: Thanks everso for that delightful information. I've been wondering what happened to them. The other two thirds, I've heard, are strewn on the beaches of Portugal. You'd think there must be a few colorful party balloons in the mass too, wouldn't you, to liven up all those drab utilitarian vessels of passion? And where has all the helium gone, not to mention the hot air? --Scott

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 10:32:40 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Cont[in]ents of Latex Message:

Easy to see how it happens - when most of the world flushes their sewage into the sea. Wonder which country would like to lay claim to the Isle of Prophlactica? (they'll be selling condos on it next!)

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:02:17 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Correction Message:

I meant are 'now' practicing safe sex... What a difference a letter makes.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 21:25:07 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Monmot Subject: I was wondering . . . Message:

but didn't they only have sex with their high school sweethearts after they got married? But what about Sally . . .

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 22:58:15 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Stonor Subject: I was wondering . . . Message:

You mean Sally Hore, the girl down the street who went to the local Catholic School?

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 13:12:22 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Monmot Subject: No, not the family with the dog called Rover . . . Message:

You must be joking. You remember Dick and Jane's younger sister Sally, don't you? Or have the cover-ups begun already? Re-writing history, sure! But Dick and Jane? That's like re-writing the Bible! Oops, we're back on topic! (Damn, wrong thread!)

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:12:12 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Monmot Subject: French letter? (nt) Message:

French letter? (nt)

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:22:29 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: cq Subject: I'm Afraid To Ask What A French Letter Is... (nt) Message:

mm

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:26:56 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Porquoi? C'est pas un johnny cum lately? ... (nt) Message:

Porquoi? C'est pas un johnny cum lately? ... (nt)

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:32:14 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: cq Subject: Est-ce qu'il un Dick et Jane condom? ... Message:

Not sure if that's the correct francais.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 19:42:08 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Good Question Message:

I agree that the Dick/Jane/Spot dream is a nightmare but there are also plenty of kids with severe problems just like adults. The question is whether Rebirthing has any benefits. I had a few Rebirthing sessions about ten years ago. There were no pillows or sheets involved and as far as I know that isn't part of the original therapy. Most of it was breathing very deeply, like hyperventilating, and being 'coached' through emotions that 'come up'. Like many therapies, I can see how it could help but the breathing was very uncomfortable. Of course, Rebirthers would argue that the breathing was uncomfortable because of buried trauma. People who practice 'therapies' walk a fine line, especially with children. If a client is in pain and wants to stop the therapist is supposed to stop. These people who killed the 10 year old girl really fucked up. I should also mention I've never met a Rebirther I liked.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:05:15 (GMT) From: Heidi Email: None To: Powerman Subject: Everything I am today, I owe to rebirthing. Message:

I liked it. Brought back nice, wet, warm memories. Not that it worked all that well--I'm still on 4 major meds for panic/depression, etc. : )

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:48:30 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Heidi Subject: Everything I am today, I owe to rebirthing. Message:

Maybe if you try the flannel sheet method, you could cut back to two. :-)) I'd have to shoot up if I did the flannel sheets.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:00:23 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Powerman Subject: Good Question Message:

I agree that some kids have severe problems, but imposing adult remedies on them doesn't always have the same results for the kids as they do for an adult. Her mother must've been desperate for a cure. I also did some rebirthing a zillion years ago and, like yours, it was centered around breathing etc. It provided some insight and was interesting. There's no way I would've submitted to being wrapped up and having a pillow shoved in my face. I would have done a Marie Antoinette and would've emerged with white hair in about 10 seconds. I heard Sondra Ray speak a couple of times, and now that you mention it, as a group, they were particularly rabid about rebirthing. The word 'cultish' comes to mind.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:20:09 (GMT) From: Heidi Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Very Cultish Indeed! Message:

And weren't they into some Guru named Babaji, but not the one from Autobiography of a Yogi? I thought I was rebirthing for many years afterwards when I hyperventilated, and it turned out to be anxiety attacks. Go figure. : ))) I kept thinking 'if only I were practising Knowledge correctly, everything would be okay.' My depression was evidence that I wasn't devoted enough. Oh well.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:24:20 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Heidi Subject: Very Cultish Indeed! Message:

When all the time you were devoted to the wrong thing. Me too.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 17:19:17 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Have I been missing something here? Message:

The time has come for all good premies to ask a Very Important Question, viz.: 'Have I been missing something here?' Maharaji seems to be promoting himself these days simply as a revealer of the 'knowledge' (do you still spell it with a capital K?) Now, does or doesn't this mean that he has renounced all his former claims? You remember - his claims of being 'Perfect Master', 'Lord of the Universe', etc. etc. Let me guess. Those claims were made out of the finest carboard that money could buy. No? and what was the question, again?

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 17:26:27 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: cq Subject: Have I been missing something here? Message:

An instructor who received knowledge in the 80's recently told me that M never called himself Lord of the Universe. Someone at Visions told me that picture of him in Life magazine at a Miami event was a pack of lies...just the press writing what they could to spice up the story.

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 22:38:29 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Daneane Subject: Have I been missing something here? Message:

Hi!! I found this at JM's site: Laugh...;) Maharajia Apologia Maharaji never did x. You're lying, making it up, someone's tricked you or you're just mistaken. Maybe someone else did x in Maharaji's name but he certainly had nothing to do with it. Maharaji never said x. You're lying, making it up, someone's tricked you or you're just mistaken. You have no proof and even if you do those transcripts were often faulty. Or, if you heard it from someone else, maybe they were lying. You'll never know. If Maharaji said x, he didn't mean 'x'. That's the trouble with you, you take things too literally. He never meant it that way, etc. etc. Words are tricky, that's all the more reason to not trust them. Get past the words,get into the feeling. Nothing's changed: Maharaji's message is exactly the same as it was years ago. Everything's changed: Maharaji's evolved too over the years. Or, alternatively, he still means it. That is, he IS bringing peace to the world, he IS the Supreme Lord in Human form, etc. Your problem is that you just can't understand these things with your limited mind. Even if Maharaji made some mistakes he doesn't owe you or anyone an explanation. Who do you think you are, anyway? Maharaji's already more than explained and accounted for all of his past(and present). You're just too thick to listen, that's all. Maybe Maharaji WILL answer you if you ask him nicely. Or maybe if you waited longer. You just can't use your mind to understand the master. That's what makes him a master. Neat eh? Oh yeah, even if Maharaji did or said x, it didn't affect me personally so what do I care? Even if M did or said x, he doesn't do it anymore, that was 20 years ago and all people criticizing him are living in the past. M got rid of DLM and all the other terrible stuff that he never wanted anyway and he did it for our benefit; Everyone who criticizes M has something emotionally or psychologically wrong with them, they are simply angry, vindictive people, now part of an anti-Maharaji cult, and therefore you can't believe anything they say; This whole discussion is due to Jim Heller [or Brian, JW, etc.], who has a mysterious power over people, is actually now the anti-Maharaji cult leader, and without him, nobody would be complaining; Mahararji has 'evolved' (even M argues THIS) and, apparently, all that 'I am God' stuff was just part of a natural evolution and all part of the (divine) plan; You can't prove anything. What you are saying might not necessarily be true and therefore I don't believe it. Even if M says he is a fradulent scumbag, you can't prove he really said it. Who am I to judge? Reality's relative. What's true for you might not be true for me. Rationality's relative. You've got your version and I've got mine. Who's to say whose is any better? You yourself were once a premie and now look how you've reversed yourself. You've obviously squandered your credibility so why should anyone take you seriously now? One doesn't even have to admit that one's defending Maharaji so long as one can find another way of describing one's words. Lila. It's all the play of the Lord (who works in mysterious ways). The Perfect Master is the Perfect Mirror. He reflects your state of mind...so since all you ex-premies are obviously, like, y'know, totally negative, that's how he appears to you...negative. All ex-premies never had understanding, never experienced knowledge, never followed Maharaji's directions, and therefore never gave either knowledge nor Maharaji a chance. This is true even of people who practiced knowledge for 20 years, lived in the ashram for 10 years, and followed agya to the letter. Somehow they just didn't get it, and that isn't Maharaji's fault, despite the fact that he is supposedly their 'master' and 'teacher.' I don't care who he is, even if he's the devil himself, I would follow him straight to hell. I refuse to waste any time talking to anyone who's just looking to box me up and package me. Nobody put a gun to your head!

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:48:31 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Daneane Subject: Send me your address... Message:

...or send Brian your address (or anyone else you trust - I can forward it to them), and I will make and send you a copy of the 'Lord of the Universe' video. A PBS documentary about premie life in 1973. Have you seen it? I think this should be required viewing for aspirants - or ex-aspirants (snicker!). Take care, Daneane - Katie

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 00:24:34 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: Daneane@earthlink.net To: Katie Subject: Send me your address... Message:

Hey, hey...no, no...you aren't sucking me in you bad net person. they warned me against you... Nah, just kidding. Thanks for the offer, though no e-mail address. You can't seriously think I would trust Brian, would you??:~) I've seen the LOTU video, twice so far. And I mentioned that to that instructor. I asked him then why was M sitting under a big sign that said 'Lord of the Universe' while people were singing about it? He changed the topic. By the way...when do I get my badge and secret codes since I am now associating with you bad net people? When's the next ignorance session??

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 15:02:47 (GMT) From: Katie Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: Daneane Subject: Send me your address... Message:

Hi Daneane - E-mail address included, although I have been horrible about answering e-mail lately (apologies to anyone who reads this.) I was typing my message really early in the AM (gotta get Brian to work by 7), and in the middle of it, I realized that you had probably already seen LOTU. Anyway, I'm glad you have. Sounds like EV is in hot pursuit of you - very interesting! BTW, the typical answer to questions like 'why was M sitting under a 'Lord of the Universe' sign is 'It was all the premies' fault', or (if they'll even mention it) 'It was all Mata Ji's fault...Bal Baghwan Ji's fault...Bob Mishler's fault.' Take care - Katie (Bad Internet Ex-Premie)

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 00:23:25 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: Katie Subject: Wow!! Message:

What a grand title you have, I am IMpressed!!

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 00:33:12 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: Daneaneg@earthlink.net To: Daneane Subject: Forgot the 'g' Message:

Geeee

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:59:04 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Katie Subject: Send me your address... Message:

My God I just SAW the word snicker and I wanted to go out a eat a candy bar - pari-menapause hell!

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 15:05:30 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Snicker! (ot) Message:

Hi Elaine - Sorry about triggering the sugar craving! If you read the forum for a while, you'll probably get de-sensitized to the word 'snicker'. Also 'Sheesh!'. Blame Brian for propagating both of these (male menopause?). Take care - Katie

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 18:28:23 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Daneane Subject: WOW... Message:

that is so wacky. The LOTU thing, well, oh please. And the Miami Life Mag story...I have that story. And I was there too. It did happen just as they describe. Including the Do YA think Im sexy part. However, the story did lie horribly when it said he only had one child, a 4 year old daughter. At that time he had two children, Premlata and Hansi. So yeah, it was smack full of lies those bastards the press.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 18:35:40 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: Susan Subject: An e-mail from Visions Message:

ubject: Text Only!! Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 17:46:59 -0400 From: Mg (edited) To: 'INTERNET:daneane@canada.com' Dear dg, What Maharaji is offering is an experience that is already inside of you. One learns to access it through the tool of 'Knowledge', so the material that we offer is that which can introduce people to this possibility, and then prepare them to receive it, if they so wish. The history portion of the videos that I mentioned covers basic facts about Maharaji...where he was born, that his father was master before he was, how Maharaji started speading his message at an early age...things like this. We include this in videos, because many people who are first hearing about this, like yourself, have a natural curiosity about him. For those who truly want to learn more about the inner experience that he offers, listening to his message is the most important aspect of the learning process. The best research about a master and what he teaches is obtained directly from the master himself. You have available videos (usually at $15, but often on sale for $10), audios ($7 and $5) and many publications which are very inexpensive, for instance 'The Possibility' booklet is only $2, 'Listen to the Cry of Your Own Heart' is only $3 this month, 'Nothing Celebrates Life- Like Life' is $12, but this month only $6. There are also libraries in major cities across the country, and many venues where interested people can go and watch videos at no cost. If we can help you find resources for any of the above, please let us know. I had never read the article you sent, but it reminded me of any other wild newspaper story that tries to be as colorful as possible by distorting facts. What Maharaji is all about is very simple and neutral, which doesn't often make a good newspaper story. By the way, I thought of another video, about 7 minutes long, called 'Against All Odds'. It has alot of history starting with Maharaji's childhood, through the 70's and 80's. Another possibility...did you know Maharaji has his own website? The address is www.maharaji.org. I recommend it, along with any other current source of Maharaji's message. Mg Visions is an established reputable business. I believe them, not all you bad net people. He may not have actually looked at the picture, but just read the caption I included in an e-mail to him.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 19:16:11 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Daneane Subject: An e-mail from Visions - says it all: Message:

An e-mail from Visions - says it all: '...'the Cry of Your Own Heart' is only $3 this month'

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 18:47:46 (GMT) From: Angry Email: None To: Daneane Subject: An e-mail from Visions/Fantastic! and Thanks Message:

Did he say Maha was neutered?? Seriously though, that email speaks for itself and should be preserved. Does the writer really believe what he wrote??? Scarey!!!!

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 18:10:27 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Daneane Subject: ... he/she said that??? Message:

... he/she said that????? ...ah, well you have to look at it from an instructor's (and M's) point of view. Mahahahaharaji 'might' have encouraged OTHERS to call him Lord of the Universe, the true Guru, the Word made flesh, etc. etc. however ... the fact (and it may be one) that he never quite had the bottle to speak of himself as Lord - preferring to offload any claims of divinity onto HIS 'Guru Maharaji', i.e. his Dad - nonetheless cuts very little ice with more objective observers of what has been, and for some reason still is, his profitable little scam. What STILL bugs me is that this kind of blatant opportunism is favoured by the State in the UK and many other countries that give Elan Vital non-profit/Charity status. Why should we all (as tax-payers) have to cow-tow to policies that serve to increase the wealth of con-artists like the Maha? BTW, how can a picture be 'a pack of lies'? Is a 'Visions' spokesperson claiming it was doctored? If so, I wonder what 'Life' magazine has to say about that?

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 15:46:06 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: cq Subject: It's all revisionism Message:

Hi cq, About 8 or 9 years ago(I was still a premie then), I met someone who was an aspirant and we got chatting. I told her(quite proudly) about m's early days in India, how he did incedible programs dressing up in his krishna crown as lotu etc..etc. The following month I met up again with this person who told me that she had catagorically been told that what I said was totally untrue and it never happened. Fortunately, I disobeyed some agya given a few years earlier to destroy all 'old' videos and kept 'Satguru has come' and was able to show it to her. Of course at that time I blamed all on the PAMS and told myself that 'mind' was always strongest around HIM. Excuse me I have to go and throw up now. Regards Jethro

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 17:53:06 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Thank you, Mahatma Chunderanand! Message:

The funny thing is, the more He tries to deny that He claimed to be (excuse my capital letters - need another barf-bag?)... ahem, claimed to be the LORD of the UNIVERSE, the Perfect Master, in all His glory, with added Lotus Feet! - the more he tries to deny it ever happened - the more the aspirants will be leaving in droves!!!! (Laugh? I will ...!)

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 19:35:24 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Jethro Subject: It's all revisionism Message:

Feel better now? After barfing? That is pretty disgusting. Have to have a strong stomach to read all this crap. How are you Jethro? Hope you and yours are well.

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 01:26:29 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Helen Subject: Thanks and high.... Message:

..all is exciting here.......don't tell anyone but I just got engaged. A blessing on your head.....Jethro

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 01:59:51 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Thanks and high.... Message:

MAZELTOV! MAZELTOV! (klezmer music joyfully playing in the background) COngrats and many wishes for happiness!

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 16:39:30 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jethro Subject: You have 'Satguru Has Come'? Message:

Jethro, Do you still have this video? I know that a whole lot of us would like to see it again. We could make whatever arrangements, I'm sure.

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 12:40:33 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Family of Love Message:

Hi Jim, I think I've got a copy of Family of Love (with the wedding) kicking around somewhere. Maybe we could watch it at our next International Convention. Anth the Hoarder

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 01:25:02 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: jc@jethro666,screaming.net To: Jim Subject: You have 'Satguru Has Come'? Message:

Jim, Don't you remember I sent you several old videos that got lost in the post about a couple of years ago? Anyway email on the above for more details.

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 16:29:24 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Jethro Subject: this is one of the most damning things IMHO Message:

that an aspirant would be told these easily provable facts are untrue. And, um, so again, what is the difference between a premie and a moonie?

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 18:01:46 (GMT) From: Paul Email: None To: Daneane Subject: I think that anyone who received knowledge in Message:

the 70s would be quite clear about M presenting himself as Lord of the Universe. I'm not sure how K was being packaged when this initiator received it, but I'm sure anyone who was allowed to become an initiator saw M as more than just a humble meditation teacher. Perhaps he justs needs to read through some old copies of 'Divine Times' or 'And it is Divine' to refresh his memory. Paul

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 22:17:30 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Paul Subject: Time to dig out some more stuff? Message:

I still have a huge pile of publications, pictures, old posters to process... Looks like more crime is going to be done on EPO!! Unless of course EV wants to buy me all this stuff. I'll give them for a reasonable price .... Hey guys, you know my phone number ... still the same !!!

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:00:12 (GMT) From: Paul Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Time to dig out some more stuff? Message:

Yes, the fight against historical revisionism never ends. By the way,JM, I'll e-mail you our Paris itinerary and hopefully it will fit with your schedule. Paul

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 16:42:57 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Whining Message:

Okay, so I hear in some video big M saying not to whine about some person you don't like because then you are just giving that person your time that could be better spent. A full-fledged ranter and whiner myself, I didn't agree with that. At the time, I didn't see the possible broader implications. Certainly M would probably prefer if people around here just didn't even waste their time talking about a person they didn't like. Then I think of the time that must be spent thinking about people he doesn't like given J-M's site going down, and events being so secret and guarded. H Y P O C R I T E So exes openly and freely rant. M and his loyal sneak around anonymously and censor. It's seems pretty simple who is doing the honest and healthier thing. I'd say he's one of those, 'do as I say and not as I do', except I'm not even sure anymore what the hell he was saying. I had a boss once who wanted everything rosy and happy and would hold it against people who whined. Pretty un-realistic, not to mention stifling.

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 16:40:45 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Daneane Subject: in the old days Message:

when he did it it was 'Lila', if the premies did it the term was 'mind' this is how you view hypocrisy through the '70s premie prism....I am sure you can just change the words for todays prism, as the belief system itself is alive and well, just sanitized for viewing from outsiders. Example....Rawat drinks Cognac after a program 'Lila' to show us the the perfect master doesn't fit into our conceptions of what he should be. Ashram premie bro has a beer after a hard day 'mind' he isn't doing the obedience part of chastity, poverty and obedience. Rawat is known for watching tremendous amounts of television at the divine residence...this is 'lila' the perfect master at play, watching the foibles of the world. Premie studies at Yale....this is 'mind' in that while he is studying the 'world' is he remembering the Holy Name? Rawat flies about the world in an expensive jet that is never quite good enough for him, Rawat has no trouble letting the premies know that their months and years of sacrifice to achieve this jet have not produced exactly what he himself wanted. This is 'lila' and an example of how merciful he is, allowing us to remain at his feet despite our imperfections. Ashram premie brother wants a nice shirt, and is not a PAM, then it is MIND, as his ego is focusing on external appearances and pleasures, when the only real happiness comes from within.

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 00:07:38 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: Susan Subject: Heavy stuff Message:

I realize more and more why he wants to hide his past.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 17:44:40 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Daneane Subject: and when in 10 years time he hides his present(nt) Message:

and when in 10 years time he hides his present(nt)

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 22:57:30 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Daneane Subject: Whining Message:

I had a boss like that too--if I hear the words 'be a team player' one more time.......AAIIIEEE great post--yeah, what a hypocritical organization around Maharaji. I guess it takes alot of 'infrastructure' to be a loving Lard!!

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:25:04 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Daneane Subject: Whine? Whynot? Message:

Hi Daneane, so the big M says 'not to whine about some person you don't like because then you are just giving that person your time that could be better spent'? I don't like him. My time could be spent ignoring him. But isn't that just what he'd like?

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 02:27:08 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: cq Subject: Whine? Whynot? To be and ignore? or To do and whi? Message:

Whine? Whynot? To be and ignore? or To do and whine? Does it boil down to questions of context, priority, and balance? (between 'whining' and 'ignoring,' and degree flexible, of course, depending on . . .) Stonor

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:42:47 (GMT) From: Paul Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Here's an Avatar you'll enjoy.... Message:

For those of you who remember(70s) Da Free John or Bubba Free John movement, you will be happy to know that he is alive and well. Check out www.adidam.org It's refreshing that he and his followers make no bones about him being the god-man avatar of our time. I think he's living on some south sea island (legal troubles I believe). Have fun. Paul

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:40:23 (GMT) From: Doin' da Rawat Shuffle Email: None To: Everyone Subject: re: AJW's simple Question Message:

Probably most of you have noticed the simple ? AJW has been asking premies to answer--What is the difference between a premie and a Moonie? The fact that not one actual cult member has tried to answer this speaks volumes. It's very confronting and leads to the slink away with tale between the legs reaction. Angry

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 16:40:04 (GMT) From: an EX Email: None To: Doin' da Rawat Shuffle Subject: re: AJW's simple Question Message:

Here's one difference: Moon gets points for consistency ... he still presents himself as the Saviour. Maharaj Ji gets points for creativity, constantly reinventing his role.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 16:10:43 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Doin' da Rawat Shuffle Subject: actually Dog tried to Message:

He said that premies think for themselves, and moonies don't. I am sure many moonies would give you the same response. So though he did answer the question, he did not answer with something that in any way distinguishes premies from moonies. It is a very good question Anth.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 17:01:56 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Susan Subject: My answer to Way, r.e. Wrong Answer DD Message:

Way, All I can say is that I know premies who are: - left wing and right wing - vegetarian and non-vegetarian - orthodox and unorthodox - totally into their careers and on welfare - stable family people and wild and crazy clubbers - strait and gay - readers of scriptures and readers of novels - devotional and non-devotional - strict by-the-book meditators and now-and-then meditators - well dressed and poorly dressed, the list goes on. Maybe the aspirants are just toeing the line, parroting the party line to get Knowledge. I don't blame them. I like Maharaji and I like Knowledge. I think that qualifies me as a practising premie. If Knowledge is not your 'cup of tea' why not try something else. There are plenty of other things out there. It bothers me seeing people, good people, wasting their time whining and complaining. Pick up the pieces and get on with your life! Get into zen, Eckankar, nude volleyball, spinach therapy, jogging on hot coals . . . something. -- Dogg

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 17:34:39 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: My answer to Way, r.e. Wrong Answer DD Message:

Dog...that's true about premies: they vary a lot in a lot of ways, and part of that is because GMJ's doctrine is very simple; there aren't any 'life rules' as there are for many, if not most, cults/spiritual groups. The Moonies have a lot of these rules, I'm guessing. So that's one difference. By the way, some of us here ARE into zen spinach therapy and so forth; we just bitch, moan, whine and complain here in addition to what we do in real life: working, loving, and even meditating!

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 17:28:58 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Re:My answer to Way, r.e. Wrong Answer DD Message:

DD, One last post before I'm off on my vacation. Your list of premie differences also applies to Moonies, some of whom dress better than others, read different kinds of books, have different diets, etc. Can't you see you are trying to avoid the issue?! AJW is trying to make a very simple point. (You also entirely avoided my point, and my direct questions about the extent of your current association with Mr. Rawat). p.s. I'm hoping they have nude volleyball on the Chelsea piers! See ya.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 17:28:38 (GMT) From: An Occassional Observer Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: My answer to Way, r.e. Wrong Answer DD Message:

'If Knowledge is not your 'cup of tea' why not try something else. There are plenty of other things out there. It bothers me seeing people, good people, wasting their time whining and complaining. Pick up the pieces and get on with your life!' So if you knew that your neighbour was protecting paedophilles, you wouldn't do anything about it...right DD? You certainly ARE a premie. Evil flourished where 'good' people do nothing.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 17:38:49 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: An Occassional Observer Subject: Good point OO. Message:

M never did seem to care much about helping others.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 16:18:01 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Susan Subject: Hi Susan Message:

Hi Susan, I was almost out the door for the weekend when your message popped up. Hope all is well with you and yours. Most premies respond to the question with a cop-out answer saying something like, 'I've never met a Moonie so I can't answer.' I know Maharaji hates it if anyone compares him to Sun Yung Moon, or the Maharishi. So it's not just the premies who squirm. Have a good weekend. I'm off home to my floorboards. Anth le Unfurnished.

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 01:16:54 (GMT) From: henrik Email: None To: AJW Subject: The answer to AWJ 's question Message:

THe answer to the difference between a moonie and a premie is surely that one is about showing your arse and the other is about talking through it. So sue me.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 14:37:43 (GMT) From: Joker Email: None To: Everyone Subject: M's long lost cousin??? a humorous link Message:

'Am I not Hot?' rated G (for all audiences) He seems to share the M's philosophy regarding what is most important in life.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 08:12:26 (GMT) From: Forum Administrator Email: forumfour@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Request from Australia Message:

I have received the following from J in Australia. She would like to converse with other exes but is not confident about posting on the forum, both in terms of her computer skills and what to say. She has agreed to me posting her email and anyone who wishes to contact her, particularly in Australia, should send an email to me, and I will forward it to her. Forum Admin. --------------------------------------------- Hi I am a current premie from Australia who is doubting and questioning and find the information I am getting from this web page very interesting and certainly expresses some of my doubts. I would very much like to talk to more people who would like to share their views and experiences, however I am very new at forum talking etc. In fact I find some of the information technology very hard to grasp sometimes. So I thought this maybe a way that I could be introduce me or have instruction on how too, or maybe you know someone in Australia who would be happy to talk to me, either by phone or email. Would you be able to help in some way? I really would like to talk to someone as I feel I can't talk to my partner (he is a premie of 25 years +) and he certainly would not appreciate this kind of talk. Look forward to hearing from someone soon. Cheers

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 07:53:13 (GMT) From: Basher Williams Email: None To: Forum Administrator Subject: Request from Australia Message:

It may not be obvious to you but apart from Young Einstiens like Peter Howie and shitstirrers like Catweasel' , 'Australians generally find this site an absolute piss-off! We are far too practical and pragmatic to get sucked in by the fake entries , the multiple personalities and the revenge dream fantasy island that has been created here. You as a group seem to be still totally obsessed by stuff you should have walked away from years ago. Now don't get all huffy, I'm not going to bother answering anyone ( well maybe Raina ) but remember this: I AM ALWAYS AMONGST YOU !!! :)))))

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 16:52:25 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Basher Williams Subject: Question Message:

Who are you -- the Australian ambassador? Do you make it a practice to always speak on behalf of all the residents of an entire nation? How do you know what 'Australians' think of this website. Given that I can think of a number of Australians (TD, Judith, Chaz and others (not to mention me Bourne who is at best a heavily doubting premie, who only remains one because, to him, having knowledge is marginally better than not having it) who have converted from premie to ex-premie through this very website, I think you better do another survey of your fellow Australians.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 22:19:08 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: JW Subject: Question Message:

Joe, Read Mr 'Basher' Williams' further contributions to this thread below and I think you'll see we are dealing with a very strange, irrational character with a strong preference for unimaginative insult over dialogue. I hope he sticks around - he's M's worst ambassador since Petrou.

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 18:33:17 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Basher Williams Subject: If i say cherries? Message:

(you have to say it in as few words as possible)

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 15:08:37 (GMT) From: Basher Williams Email: None To: raina Subject: If i say cherries? Message:

Go Man goes ?????

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 15:24:50 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Basher Williams Subject: If i say cherries? Message:

an old australian roomate once baptised me with cherries while driving me to a k session.....for just a second i thought it could have been you.....but no.....chiz fine! when i got out of their convertable in front of the hotel (santa monica i think) covered with red poka-dots and too screaming punks yelling 'Hey Raina! You dropped your knowledge!' it was ironic that Charnanand(sp?) was standing right there with Rosie 'my' Instructor/David Smith roomie and all those other VIP's you hear so much about.......i was 'possibly' going to recieve knowledge that day etc......my australian roomate used to call M 'the fat little fuck.' It seemed becaue it had gotten the better of him at one point-he refused to talk about it much though so i don't really know....he would only try to make me feel foolish (and steal my jewelry to buy heroin-for himself of course). feels like yestereday....

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 16:02:55 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: raina Subject: Rosie Lee Message:

Hey raina, What did you think of Rosie Lee? Knew her in the old days. What year was it? I don't imagine she's lost any weight. Elaine

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 23:45:16 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Rosie Lee Message:

ya that sounds right...rosie lee...i couldn't remember her last name. she was the one who got annoyed when i used the word 'instinct' at a session (and then M started using it in his lectures etc)... except for that one time-she was basically neutral it seemed... oh -except for another time when i asked her why i wasn't 'chosen' and she said 'it didn't seem like you really wanted it bad enough'(!) (i once walked 10 miles to a session!) anyway-um, it was (in LA) Dec.1989- Aug.1990 i think i saw her once in Rome or Madrid too.... I actually did go to her (and David Smith's) apt once..... i remeber spending my last few bux at a Food Emporium across the street from her address and had no where to go for like an hour (no car at the time) and actually sat on the stairs of the parking lot etc (they have the nerve to say 'You don't want it bad enough!'.....)

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 10:00:50 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Basher Williams Subject: Bullshit from Australia Message:

I don't notice any difference between Aussie contributors and those from anywhere else; no greater evidence of practicality or pragmatism - least of all from you. Stupid remark. (And I could name at least six other Aussie regulars - premies and exes) Then you witter on: Now don't get all huffy, I'm not going to bother answering anyone ( well maybe Raina ) but remember this: I AM ALWAYS AMONGST YOU !!! :))))) So you want us to know what you think of 'us' (not only are Aussies all the same, so are exes, apparently), but also want us to know that you're not going to answer any replies. You're too pragmatic to get 'sucked in', yet are always among us... You sound badly confused and somewhat immature to me. What other names do you post under?

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 09:04:52 (GMT) From: An Occassional Observer Email: None To: Basher Williams Subject: you're the usual coward! Message:

Is that how you justify to yourself that you follow a paedophile protector and thief?

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 11:21:52 (GMT) From: Basher Williams Email: None To: An Occassional Observer Subject: you're the usual Cowboys! Message:

I'm no coward , but Twits like Nigel just are no worth the time of day. PS: I do not post here regularily, but I DO READ WHAT IS POSTED.

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 11:09:40 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: liverpool.ac.uk To: Basher Williams Subject: You DO have a problem, don't you? Message:

I'm no coward , but Twits like Nigel just are no worth the time of day. PS: I do not post here regularily, but I DO READ WHAT IS POSTED. 'Not worth the time of day' but you read what is posted. You weren't going to reply, then you do just that. 'Shit-stirrer' or not, your contrary style and content are suggestive of Catweasel. Don't you think a well-considered argument might serve your 'Master' better than vacuous mud-slinging? Inner peace, my arse..

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 15:06:59 (GMT) From: Basher Williams Email: None To: Nigel Subject: You DO have a problem, don't you? Message:

I am not Catweasel. He/She is unique. Nigel you seem an edgy little squirt... AND YOU MUST BE JOKING. The likelihood of a balanced conversation here is zip.

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 18:27:45 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: delightful Mr Williams Subject: Collecting insults is part of the fun. Message:

My favourites so far have been 'twit' (you), 'sociopath' (URL), 'academic' (coming from Mel Bourne I think this was intended as in insult), 'person who has never has an original thought in his life' (Bjorn)… but 'edgy little squirt' (you again) tops the lot. Well played, sir! And it's not as if I deserve it: the worst thing I ever wrote on the forum was pretty innocuous. I just said to Jossi Fresco 'You pompous, patronizing shite… why don't you fuck off back to Guruland..?' (But I had very good reason...) Listen, my friend. I don't do much to help others in everyday life unless you class paid teaching work as 'help'. But if by putting in my tuppenceworth here I can help premies rid themselves of their guru-dependence, which has happened a few times, then I consider it worthwhile. Meanwhile it is fun and I make new friends. Provided I can do this without lying about the object of your devotion (and there's no need to lie when the truth is more than adequate) then I don't see you have grounds for complaint. However, I am baffled by your forum-addiction. You must be aware that ex-premie.org is bad news for 'Maharaji'. Yet your incoherent outbursts (like your ugly twin Catweasel's threats against Pete Howie) serve only to make matters worse for 'Maharaji', since they make premies look like mean-spirited morons which, in my experience, most premies most certainly are not. But still it seems you can't stop yourself coming here and posting without first putting your brain into gear. What's going on? Perhaps you find more truth here than you are prepared to admit. Perhaps the reason you won't discuss has less to do with fairness and more to do with your unwillingness to confront the obvious.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 14:08:39 (GMT) From: Basher Williams Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Collecting insults is part of the fun. Message:

You fascinate me Nigel. You have such a personally advantageous view of your contributions here. Can you be objective? I see you as hysterical. I note you have a personal agenda to shape up to Premies. Why? You come across as damaged goods,transparent and insecure.I'd suggest you have ALWAYS been that way! You crusade against Catweasel. I actually wouldn't see him/her as the type to care. PS. You did not need to qualify that you are a Teacher. Your 'high horse' makes that obvious.You might check ; I think you will find I am not who you think I am. Vaccuous prat!

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 21:56:50 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Basher Williams Subject: 'Vacuous prat' is BEST YET! Message:

You fascinate me Nigel. You have such a personally advantageous view of your contributions here. Can you be objective? I see you as hysterical. I note you have a personal agenda to shape up to Premies. Why? You come across as damaged goods,transparent and insecure.I'd suggest you have ALWAYS been that way! You crusade against Catweasel. I actually wouldn't see him/her as the type to care. PS. You did not need to qualify that you are a Teacher. Your 'high horse' makes that obvious.You might check ; I think you will find I am not who you think I am. Vaccuous prat! Nine insults in one post and not one of them explained. You demonstrate every point I tried to make in the above thread. Read the whole lot back again when you get a quiet moment and see if you catch my drift... Listen, Mr Anonymous, by all means call me what you like, but at least do a sort of 'Nigel, you said such-and-such which shows you are an edgy little squirt, then you said x, y, and z which is confirmation that you are damaged goods, moreover you implied this that and the other which makes you a vaccous [sic] prat...' (love the way you picked up the word 'vacuous' from my earlier post.) The thing is, you need to carry the reader with you. Keep them on your side, otherwise you'll never win them back to the loving embrace of your beloved guru. Who gives a flying fuck whether you are Catweasel or not. But why don't you just talk normally? Otherwise why say anything? (Actually, you are probably Nil/URL/X&^&^$. Cowards the lot of you and incapable of rational discussion.)

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 19:00:51 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Basher Williams Subject: vaccuous prat? Message:

'...and he's come to show us the way ... back to our Father'. If ever there was a vaccuous prat, Basher, ... Do you remember singing (to the tune of 'away in a manger'): I love you Maharaji Your grace is overflowing I love you Maharaji, You are all-knowing Your knowledge is ...(something) Your heart is endless love Your ... thingummy is ... whatsit Your ... (I forget the rest). You remember? Endless love? Like it rubs off on you?

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 22:44:55 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: cq Subject: Hey cq: got a Stevie Wonder lyric sheet? Message:

I was playing some old tapes today and the first track of Stevie Wonder's 1975 'Fulfillingness's First Finale' (Jeez, talk about crap title!) is the truly wonderful 'You haven't done nothing...' 'We're all amazed but not amused by all the things you say you do...' Every line's a winner. '..but if you really want to hear my view: you haven't done nuthin...' Believe me, it is the ultimate ex-premie anthem. All you'd have to change was the bit where he says 'Jackson Brothers sing all along now' (or something like that - where the Jacksons come in on backing vocals). Change it to 'Rawat Brothers' so you can imagine Bubblegum ji, Bhole ji and Raja ji doing the fills. Doo doo wop, indeed!

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 01:53:10 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Basher Williams Subject: you're the usual Cowboys! And SO WHAT???? Message:

Basher Butt, So what you come to read, so WHAT??? You are so sure of your 'trip', eh? Don't put all eggs in one basket: Life is too short! Mahalard is a thief!! My wish for you? Enjoy the cult. Rawat is a cult leader. You then... his devotee! Go away, you...premie! Continue sleeping and dreaming... Is on you! We woke up. SB

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 06:28:31 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: god Subject: it's like aa dramatic moment from The Beach Message:

i can hear an accent now

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 15:11:57 (GMT) From: Basher Williams Email: None To: raina Subject: it's like aa dramatic moment from The Beach Message:

Shit luv are youse alright. I nearly grazed my Gregory Pecker in the surf at Woolamai trying to rolls youse over.

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 16:03:25 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Basher Williams Subject: o-no u weren't there! Message:

i was saying that now i heard SB's accent....not yours..... i was trying to joke about her sounding like leonardo's girlfriend when she got mad...... i was overly vague to avoid having to get any sort of response from her (while trying to defend your on-her!)

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 15:45:00 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Basher Williams Subject: now there'sa nice culty movie for the kidz here to Message:

disgust amonst r's elfs.

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 14:33:00 (GMT) From: An Occassional Observer Email: None To: Basher Williams Subject: Like I said..... Message:

You are a coward and a bully(or should I say Basher) just like the one who you worship. You avoid the issue on m's silence about jagdeo and padarthanand(yes, we haven't forgotten that titilator that you ozies call 'paddy'), that's why you will never get any respect from caring human beings.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:27:36 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Forum Administrator Subject: I don't hear an aussie accent Message:

it doesn't seem possible that an australian would use these words in this order: 'So I thought this maybe a way that I could be introduce me or have instruction on how too...' so why is it so important for us to know this person is from 'australia.'?

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 08:04:00 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: liverpool.ac.uk To: raina Subject: I don't hear an aussie accent Message:

(1) Australia is multi-ethnic. Many ways of talking and using language. (2) Pehaps she wants to meet up with local exes. Why you do mind?

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 10:22:24 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Nigel Subject: observation police? Message:

my question WAS: why was 'Australia' such an important detail in this person 'explanation' of an unclear (to me) request.....???? Q: when did i say i minded? A: I didn't! but i am manipulated into feeling i have to defend myself to someone who is LOOKING for an argument (that he is making up!) this kind of shit gets SO tedious on this damn site...i am so sick of it..... i am almost always a neutral person with curiosity about certain details! big deal? apparently!!! my condolences for your baggage problems.

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 20:21:22 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: raina Subject: You're so full of shit, Raina Message:

This was your first post on the issue: it doesn't seem possible that an australian would use these words in this order: 'So I thought this maybe a way that I could be introduce me or have instruction on how too...' so why is it so important for us to know this person is from 'australia.'? To which Nigel said a few things and asked you why you minded? Now, with your typical tinderbox histrionics, you cry that you've been misconstrued, manipulated and set up -- once again! -- to have to 'defned' your poor self. What a stupid crock of shit! Of course you 'mind'. Your whole post was all about 'minding' the fact that this person said they were Australian. Want to know something? You're an asshole. Nigel was jsut trying to talk with you but you're so damnded sketchy that's impossible. One never knows when you're going to go off next, crying 'victim' again on the flimsiest basis. That's why I normally don't bother playing 'Raina Roulette', never knowing when you're going to spit. Forget it. This is a one-off.

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 20:49:21 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Jim Subject: I could have sworn he meant to say 'bothered' Message:

in his use of the word 'mind' in the sentence 'Why do you mind?' am i really wrong (as if) to interpret 'Bothered'? my whinning was an expression of boredom and tediousness.... which was harldy being a victim...... i sometimes call myself an asshole. coming from you.....it only saddens and disappoints momentarily.

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 21:10:16 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: raina Subject: He DID mean 'bothered'..... and why not? Message:

Yes, I thought he meant bothered too. That would make sense because you did seem bothered by it. Okay, so maybe you weren't. Why not just say so? Look at the shit you wrote to Nigel, all that garbage about his 'baggage' and how 'tedious' it is for you to always be unfairly set upon and stuff. How's he supposed to like that, huh? Or does that not matter?

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 00:44:21 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Jim Subject: He DID mean 'bothered'..... and why not? Message:

that was why i made a point of saying '...on this damn site....' because it was hardly because of JUST Nigel....... it's not even JUST this site! it's EVERYWHERE! EVERYONE projecting their feelings, assumptions, and misunderstandings onto other people.... i won't try to sound as if i may not have been slightly careless in directing my 'sick of it all' more towards Nigel than i meant to....i didn't even take the time to re-read it because i did feel a bit imposed upon to have to 'explain' what i SUPPOSEDLY meant by pointing out ONE detail that ONE other person may have found interesting? i just re-read what i wrote and it was wrong of me to write (as if to NIGEL specifically) 'Looking for an argument' or fight etc..... i was also wondering what kind of people would come to the 'mysterious' australian's 'rescue' as if they would be any better off!!! now come on! THAT'S funny!!!! a 'helpless', 'kind', 'sweet-sounding', gentle, ANONYMOUS x-premie! isn't that sort of like being a double agent? and the 'baggage' comment certainly didn't imply that we all TOO don't have backage....

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 01:55:18 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: raina Subject: If you mean that, you're to be pitied Message:

it's EVERYWHERE! EVERYONE projecting their feelings, assumptions, and misunderstandings onto other people.... Raina, What a cross you bear! Sounds terrible. But tell me, if human interaction is as dreary and painful for you as all that, why bother coming here and subjecting yourself to that much more projecting, assuming and misunderstanding? I'd imagine that someone who felt like you would think this the last thing they'd ever want to do. Am I missing something? By the way, where'd you ever get the idea that 'unsolicited advice is always a a sign of hostility'? Personally, I think that's nonsense.

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 05:03:52 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Jim Subject: yes. i have asked myself this question Message:

perhaps because it is my first 'chat room' experience? it's novel....i mean i can honestly say, i only got online earlier because the cable was out for a while..... why are you asking me if you're missing something? UAIAASOH.....it has rung true to me for years now..... i will attempt rapid simplification...... For years i have been making the observation. It's a handy dandy mechanism for prying yourself away from this EXTREMELY common problem of people wrestling with their own torment by involving another person.....like when using a 10 foot pole to help them from drowning in the whitecapped river instead of diving in to tell them 'how much you love' them. they'll accuse you of being 'cold hearted' because you acted rationally instead of dramatically and emotionally etc......have you ever had a practical stranger call you up and call you all sorts of names because they have a problem with rejection? you just get numb when that's all there seems to be out there...... I just watched 'Blast From the Past'.i laughed very hard many times. 'LEAVE MY ELEVATOR ALONE!' I have crack heads knocking on my window at 4:30am when they mix up my neighbors window for mine. Instead of appreciating that I DON'T call the cops-they will actually come back looking for someone to argue with-perhaps because their father just sodomized them? who knows right? I have a bldg super who will turn off my water when he hears I am in the shower fo kix. (Sometimes men amuse themselves by tormenting beautiful intelligent women they know they will never have-because-that's their way of 'having'. The funny thing is...i have yet to meet a human being i'd want to trade places with..... maybe it's different being a single woman Jim? answers! questions! aren't they fun? rarely..... but they are sometimes.... i'm totally getting ready to pass 'on' (it's just what's happening...not my choice) and so when i feel like my short little bit of oxygen-period is being nibbled away at by zombies-i cringe. I cringe to their faces as much as possible-both to try to be honest, and perhaps snap them out of it by some miracle! shock-treatment? no. banal, boring, silence-and they want to strangulate this thing they can't control......it pisses me off....more for the memory of ALL the wasted lives-all the sabotaged lives of the strip-mined - way more than just my own...........

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:40:13 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: raina Subject: Raina, you're so suspicious of everything Message:

Relax, it's only an email. Anth (just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean nobody's following me)

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 17:26:40 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: AJW Subject: I'm paranoid and nobody's following me :( (nt) Message:

I'm paranoid and nobody's following me :( (nt)

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 00:29:24 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: cq Subject: so you think.....(o)(o) (nt) Message:

(o)(o)

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 12:44:38 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Daneane Subject: oh ... well that's alright then ['] ['] (nt) Message:

oh ... well that's alright then ['] ['] (nt)

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 20:23:29 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Daneane Subject: Put your shirt back on! Message:

This is an all-ages show.

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 00:33:43 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: Jim Subject: Canadian Humor doesn't suck(ot) Message:

'Dave: Hi Uhh, yeah, I’m Dave Foley, and I just wanted to talk to you, not just as a middle-rung celebrity, but also as a Canadian who has recently moved to your country. Now, I’ve been surprised to find how little Americans seem to know about Canada. Now granted, there are many similarities between our two nations but there are also many subtle differences that give us our unique Canadian identity. For example, in Canada everyone hates Barbara Streisand. But here she seems to be quite popular. And there are other differences too, I mean, we don’t have states, we have provinces. Umm, we use the metric system. Canadians and Americans both love Football, but in Canada the game is played slightly differently. The field is a different size for one thing. The CFL field is 17 miles long and 6 feet wide. So understandably, games are a little longer. In fact, the 1949 Gray Cup game is still in progress. Many Americans believe that our national anthem is “Oh Canada” simply because we enjoy singing it before hockey games. But in fact, our anthem is “The Night Chicago Died” by Paper Lace. Our systems of government differ somewhat in that America is a Republic with a President, a Congress and a Senate. In Canada we are ruled by a small boy with supernatural powers... of whom we are all very fond. Now in the U.S. when a mommy and daddy love each other, they perform bipolar sexual intercourse and make a baby. Canadians, however, are a breed of hermaphrodites who reproduce by means of auto-nsemination, thus eliminating the need for sex. This also explains why we don’t really have a film industry. And of course, how can we discuss Canada without discussing the weather. Yes, it is cold in Canada. It is very, very cold, are ya HAPPY now?? Yes, the average year-round temperature is 275 degrees below zero, but that is CELCIUS. Now can we talk about something else?? Like for example, the fact that our atmosphere is pure sulpher dioxide which is, of course, incapable of sustaining life, LIFE AS YOU KNOW IT. Or the fact that we only have gravity for 6 hours out of each day and spend the rest of our time desperately clinging to trees to avoid being spun into the endless abyss of space. Yes, all this is true, but at least we have universal health care. Thank you for your time. '

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 11:56:57 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Daneane Subject: Well it made me laugh... Message:

(but, then, I'm not Canadian.) Paper Lace, heh? What a hideous blast from the past to be reminded of..!

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 00:45:47 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Daneane Subject: Canadian Humor doesn't suck(ot) Message:

Dear Daneane, And do you Canadians also see out of your breasts, as your subject above, would indicate. :) Sorry, don't really know you well enough to tease you but couldn't resist. I have to admit that long before Jim's post appeared I thought the same thing. What you put in your title is a symbol for breasts. Haha, I thought. Somewhere I have a forward of different breast symbols, I'll get it to you if I run across it. For your future reference. :) Love, Robyn

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 02:25:11 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Too funny Message:

But, I wonder, mine is innocence...what board's are you visiting? Sure is a good thing I didn't use the number '8' and a dash.

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 03:01:42 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Daneane Subject: Too funny Message:

Hi Daneane, I think it was Roger Drek that posted the list of breasts and maybe ass'! :) Actually, as far as meeting people on the net it is this forum and the 'spin off' forums that have sprouted up since I've been here that are my only sources and there seems to be more then enough people flowing in and out to keep me communicating with lots of people. 8-==> Hahaha! Love, Robyn

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 03:05:53 (GMT) From: me again Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Too funny Message:

on sencond though... 8==o :)

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 03:32:15 (GMT) From: Big Butt Bertha Email: None To: me again Subject: LOL Excellent ( ! ) nt Message:

mm

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:52:54 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: AJW Subject: UAIASOH (almost sample #2-but too emotional) Message:

when your mind tells yourself that you know when other people need to relax (online, keyboards etc) you might could see it as a siren in your psyche? whispering or loud? doesn't matter. when your off your off. I'm anticipating hearing from someone I love more deeply than anyone on this earth (total illusion i'm so sure-but it feels good while your believing you know? maybe you don't? i'm talking fucking rare man.....look at me! i'm revealing information from my loins online to strangers man! but ok JWA! i'll relax!

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 22:19:42 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: raina Subject: UAIASOH (almost sample #2-but too emotional) Message:

raina, You're like a great tv show I tell my friends to watch. You don't even realize probably how clever you are. I tell my friends about things you do or say - just to get them to tune in. You didn't know that,huh? Now don't be mean to me now. I'm a sensitive human being. Elaine

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 20:04:36 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Elaine Subject: don't you want to know what UAIASOH means? Message:

so you mean for me to assume that by saying 'Now don't be mean to me....' you EXPECT me to become mean because you are mocking me? I see!

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 23:47:04 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: raina Subject: don't you want to know what UAIASOH means? Message:

Yes, I would like to know,now that you mention it. Thank you. My motto is 'Assume nothing.Expect nothing.' Elaine

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 00:53:10 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Elaine Subject: favor? Message:

if you read our last two posts to each other once again.... do you see any possible misunderstanding? it's as if you only heard what you wanted to hear (which is fine except that you assume things about 'how I react' etc.....) i can't believe i'm even replying to this.... (the reply boxes not just the subject) btw it means: 'Unsolicited advice is always a sign of hostility'

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 16:51:10 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: raina Subject: Advice Message:

Actually, I remember that phrase well from 2-3 weeks ago. Without looking back I believe there was a conversation between Stonor and Helen? ( maybe it was Susan or SB). Don't tell me it was you and Stonor. Well, I told friends about that quote - I found it very thought-provoking. I thought it was true. So I've watched myself. You know, deep seated, unconscious motivation and all. I found that twice I gave unsolicited advice - once to a sranger while I was on my routine walk - ok,maybe it was none of my business - but there was absolutely no hostility - and it was received well. So, now I'm not so sure that phrase is 100% of the time true. _________________ And I don't believe I assume anything about how you react,I'm sure of it - but, once bitten.... Nice talking with ya, Elaine

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Date: Sun, May 21, 2000 at 21:43:48 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Elaine Subject: The only bad vice is AD vice.... Message:

can't remember what movie i saw that in..... there also isn't any hostility when a car runs over a turtle (usually).... i think it boils down to true intentions....and therefore the phrase is as 100% as anything can be. just like silence is golden....how can you know how your 'advice' to that stranger manifested? maybe she scoffed at you behind her back? maybe she won the lottery? maybe she started acting like you to get even further away from herself? who could EVER know? what felt good about it to you is that catholic 'christian' notion of 'give and you shall recieve' maybe? similiar to a nin year old giving $5 to a church collection plate, while praying for (and expecting) a bicycle. or the 'nice' person at the intersection who decides to do her 'good deed for the day' by smiling and waving on the car turning in front of her AND THE 10 OTHER CARS BEHIND HER WHO ARE LATE FOR WORK and on their way to meet with divorce attorneys (attornies?)! hmmm. that's exactly why i believe it rings true-it's never really clear why anybody ever does anything. It may look like a loving mother to you running into the street to save her child from a speeding car. But really, she had that baby as a meal ticket she LIVES on! , or to trap her husband, or whatever other horrible things you can come up with-the point being YOU NEVER really KNOW! so when M says being able to say 'I don't know' is equally important as knowing etc....it's SO fucking true....why would i see that gem as a concocted ploy to keep me from seeing him get a blow-job while drinking martini's on his spaceships!!!! 4 words can change people's lives for the better OR for the worse......you can really never know....anything....like in those first sentences of CQ's post (at bottom now i think) of Kuhn.....lies can turn into populations of millions with a seemingly ok life and all ....and if you're existing in that life, to dig holes and fill them up again to keep from being noticed by the society dictates (emperor's new clothes sort of thing) for people to do (idle hands and all that...) busy busy busy you know? you never answered my original question btw... which may fester minorly in the course of future discourse.... too bothersome to bother any further for the moment

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 15:51:50 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: raina Subject: The only bad vice is AD vice.... Message:

I understand bothersome - just ask again whenever you feel like it. I'll answer, promise - missed it, I guess. Understand what you said above - in my simple moment of offering advice to the stranger, tho - - she immediately took the picture in better light - so I saw her appreciation immediately. And from above - yes - that would also be my motto..'Don't judge - bec we have no clue what really is the reality in front of our own eyes.' Perfect time to tell a quick story.... Student asks the Master -'Why does the good man get robbed,while the bad man finds a gold coin?' Master-'The good man was supposed to not only get robbed, but was to be hung upside down and tortured. The Bad Man was to find a chest of gold coins.' So who ever knows what is what....ahhh, the peace of never judging and accepting we know so little... Elaine

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 00:16:07 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Exactly! Message:

like the story- that sort of thing doesn't confuse or scare me the way i think most people are....it definately depresses me! but it doesn't scare me..........i know i've found incredible peace of mind in all that mumbo....you know? we can't know the effect we have on each other's lives ever really full etc....but i'm not saying it ends there....i just feel like my time is best spent keeping track of myself.....somehow it seems like things become more obvious, even automatic...like with a childish back and forth w/ stonor last week-i only used HER words to attack-i don't ever need to make anything up.....and if i walk a fine line? that's how you learn to walk ( i walk a pretty good line, for example to 'libel' someone i'm pretty sure you have to at least know their name!) and i would rather test the boundaries of my self control than get really good as the repressed and compromised fake person etc not to mention be that ONE adult who may actually say something that needs to be said (oh god PLEASE don't anyone get into stonor shit with me-i'm just saying in general).....even when i feel a violent urge it's accompanied by humour (and therefor control)....and that seems the way people are meant to grow 'up' and 'know themselves' and their limits etc.... like on some level, i feel like i should just shut-up, because if i try to explain something i feel strongly about-i'll just be misunderstood, and created all this crap i didn't mean to....but i'll take a chance...... i was thinking today about this neat thing that happened to me in the 8th grade. where this really tough bully girl (that even all the boys were afraid to piss off) asked me to get her some pot. so i did and the next day gave it to her-she said 'I'll be right back' (i had NO idea money was supposed to be exchanged!) and went to the bathroom....later on she came over to me and said she had to flush it down the toilet because a teacher came in.....interestingly enough, i didn't care about the pot (didn't even expect money-i was just happy to help out!) but i KNEW she was lying to me and she could feel that w/o a word or even a glance..... and because i was just TOTALLY silent...THAT bugged her enough to actually confess to me! and apologize! i can't explain why i think that is the neatest thing-maybe you understand? like I did NOTHING really, and by doing nothing i forced a consciousness in her! you know? she probably didn't care so much about what i thought of her-as much as what she felt in herself...i don't know....it was my innocence that got to her.....not me you know? i'm not saying this is always how it is obviously-but i really understood something about how people have to change themselves etc ..... i probably shouldn't post this-PLEASE don't jump on me whoever may feel the 'need'....please! just leave it be! i'm talking to Elaine.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 16:43:39 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Elaine Subject: If only I were English! Message:

If I wee English I'd be able to say 'What a load of tosh!'. But I'm not. All I can say is that's bullshit, Elaine. Fuck off with your Jonathan Livingston Seagull predestination guru blather. It's beneath you.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 01:26:20 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: raina Subject: Free advice for Raina Message:

Find another aphorism. This one's just plain dumb. Who cares if unsolicited advice may prove unhelpful or even destructive? Same could be said for solicited adivce, couldn't it? And besdies, I thought your point was that unsolicited advice 'is always a sign of hostility'. That's an entirely different point than the one you appear to be making above about consequences. My advice to you, then, is to simply face the fact that that truism of yours is false.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 02:55:39 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Jim Subject: note the hostility Message:

ok-just TRY to see what i mean the next time you hear or read someone giving you a 'suggestion' to 'help you' see things their way...... see if you can't (effortlessly as well as rapidly) notice that 99.9 % of the time it's FILLER....and the tiniest seemigly unimportant choices of words and reliance on idiomatic expression to create a familiarity, can feel like your conversing with an android replicante at best, and a zombie at worst.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 04:06:21 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: raina Subject: note the bizarre, hyper-paranoid freakism Message:

Raina, Do you have any friends? You know, plain old real friends? Like you call each other up, vist and stuff. Do things. 'Hey, Raina, what's new? Want to see a movie or something?' You know, like friends? I just can't imagine anyone maintaining any sort of relationship with someone so prickly. Of course I was 'hostile' in my post to you. I'm trying to tell you, after all, that I think your blanket criticism of unsolicited advice is ridiculous and I made a point of saying so in the form of giving you some, well, unsolicited advice. Using that as an example of unsolicited advice bearing its 'universal hallmark of hostility' is just a way of saying 'no jokes, please!' Luckily for all of us, Raina, the one thing you've got going for you is a sense of humour.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 05:44:53 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Jim Subject: note the bizzebody, hyping-freakism Message:

i could just as easily doubt you have any friends.... i don't bother though....and perhaps the fact that you're asking me intimate questions in such a hostile way makes me wonder NOT about your sanity (so much), but why you would wonder about mine, when you are obviously burdened with your own frustrations. why would you talk to me as if you think you know how everything works? as if you even know me? (a small fraction of moods and information and you think you can just dive into someone else's bean?) talk about bizarre behavior.... i know that those 'friends' you think you know so well.....the oldest stories...evryone's been screwed over in their life so i'm sure you know exactly what i'm talking abut.... if you suddenly found yourself penniless, and with rumours flying around that you were 'crazy' don't you think it's possible that even those who know you 'best' might innocently fall into that trap's trappings and resort to calling you on it once or twice? you know don't you? like the way BLACKLISTING works? ..... and that might just throw everything into a whole new place for you? might'nt it? maybe you've been nice and comfy and secure for a nice long time-good for you-i'm even maybe a bit envious of you're BBQ social life as local philosophy club prez....i grew up beloved too (as in BELOVED-maybe even WAY more than you-don't you ever admit to the possibility before you just pretend it's not there in your little argument?..... i'm not sorry to have found out just how deep those waters really ran with my 'friends'..... that doesn't mean that it's all death and finished....but i'm a realist sometimes too.... i feel sorry for plenty more people than myself jim.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 15:58:44 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: raina Subject: to raina Message:

Hey, raina, None of us needs friends. We're born alone and we die alone. Period. Elaine

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 00:25:00 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Elaine Subject: true Message:

but i do miss all the great laughs- still have them once in a while.... like the other night, i laughed my head off with this guy i met down by the river at a little music soiree thing.....it was about 7 hours later that he mis-stepped, and started showing dick etc.... it's like he was refining his already academy award winning act.....is that just ALWAYS a man thang? 7 hours! and then it was like Jekyll and hyde! (not violent -but just NOT who he pretended to be in order to attempt getting his dick wet) i really wanted to believe this guy was real.... it's not in me to do that to anyone-never has been- and so now i just count on it-and try to avoid it like the plague........ men and women (it's less to do with sex than their multiple personality disorders....Night of The Living Dead etc)

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 23:36:37 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Elaine Subject: to raina Message:

Dear Elaine, Are you kidding here? I don't know where I'd be without my friends. They bring companionship, joy, laughter, emotional and practical support, love, and they need me too and it is good to be needed, don't you think? Love, Robyn

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 00:28:30 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Robyn Subject: totally! Message:

the only thing i would wish for if i had a wish would be for just one true friend..... some of us are just not so lucky all the time..... 'loneliness is better than the friendship of a fool' (or a fucking liar) is -i think -all were saying back and forth here.....

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 00:43:34 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: raina Subject: totally! Message:

Raina, When I was a kid, a premie and for some years after I was so gulible, took everyone at thier word and got burt a bunch of times but was luck enough to have good, true friends right along, through my life. I use to HATE to be alone so I guess I accepted people being fucked up towards me to some extent and was easily fooled that others were good like your experience but not just flashing although that has happend to me, what is up with that!? Anyway after I had my kids I went back to school and got a degree. To do this I became much more of a hermit, not totally but so much considering my personality and since then I have stayed more of a hermit then ever in my life before. I got a job where I use to live after I graduated and swore I wouldn't let the users or the criminals back into my life. They were mostly friends of my ex. I came home once and there was my jewlery box on the table, my antic salt spoon pin missing. I flipped and wouldn't let them leave until they gave it back and eventually quite like magic it was there under the table! Turns out after I split with the man I was with I realized all my good jewlery was gone! He was trading it for crank! Fucker! So just recently I have realized that I want to spend more time with more people although I have always had a group of excellent friends and as I said I don't know where I'd be without them. They are my family more then my family, parents, sisters, are. Hope you find some good people you can know are your friends. Robyn

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Date: Tues, May 23, 2000 at 02:31:16 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Robyn Subject: example of what a rotten f-o-s friend i am........ Message:

i'm not sure if i'm wrong or right actually- but i was going to say something earlier about noy being sure that my roomate actually stole my earrings, as i didn't see him do it-it was only in trying to figure out how they were possibly lost....and it wasn't far fetched... but in fairness (and i would actually PREFER to know he didn't!)...i shouldn't have said that out loud.... AND if i lead you to believe that a guy last week 'flashed' me (as you wrote here)-i was just trying to say he started thinking with his favorite member....if that's what you meant by 'flash'?...not quite that vulgar... but it mays well be....no i take that back....

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 17:45:01 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Used to bvelieve that too, have you ever REALLY Message:

tried to live without people. As someone who loves their own company, I have, and after a few years found my boundaries. Everybody needs somebody, if not to love, to relly share with. Sorry Elaine, but that's a spritually stained load of b....x.

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 08:27:49 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: raina Subject: Good, so long as we understand each other Message:

Raina, I'm speechless. G'night.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:35:00 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: raina Subject: I don't hear an aussie accent Message:

Maybe they live in Australia,but they're not from there originally? Only a guess.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 15:39:01 (GMT) From: raina Email: None To: Elaine Subject: this isn't an exam elaine! Message:

ya-i figured that one! (but wasn't compelled to begin considering a million other possible scenarios!

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 08:23:21 (GMT) From: Prabupradra Email: None To: Forum Administrator Subject: Request from Australia Message:

Mrs Catweasel , just what do you think you are doing!!

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:01:41 (GMT) From: Sam Email: - To: Everyone Subject: Where have I been Message:

Just becoming ex after more than 20 years- feels free but off-centre. Seems he inbuilds his safety nets- eg don't listen to your mind(including common sense), leave no room for doubt, etc. H ow to know the truth? Any help with similar?

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 13:09:31 (GMT) From: AJW Email: anthginn@yahoo.com To: Sam Subject: Da Da Da Der, Da Da Der... Message:

Hi Sam, Whenever I read a post like yours, the theme music to 'The Great Escape' starts playing in my head. Another one out of the tunnel and into the woods, with your cardboard suitcase and fresh ID papers. One of the great thing about getting out- and there are many things- is that nobody comes after you to try and make you go back. In fact, if you look at the debates on the forum, premies don't even like to talk about the cult and always avoid answering difficult questions. I've yet to get a straight answer from a premie to, 'What's the difference between a premie and a moonie?' Anyway, welcome back to planet Earth and the human race. Anth of the Escape Committee

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 03:15:09 (GMT) From: Sam Email: - To: all Subject: Thanks Message:

Thanks for the support- I'll keep in touch. I can see this as fun, but I think I still have to ask questions and advice as it's so new to me to be out here

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 09:32:49 (GMT) From: Angry Email: None To: Sam Subject: Where have I been Message:

Hi Sam, This forum is very helpful with its many perspectives. I also find it helpful to use a search engine for research on cults in general. It is important to me anyway to understand that a cult is a cult.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:46:41 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Sam Subject: Where have I been Message:

Welcome Sam-congratulations on your awakening (at least that's how it felt to me,when I started to wake up and ask a few questions, many of which were precipitated by this forum).You have many friends here, and you can have real dialogues with real people who have all been through what you are.This place can be very helpful, supportive and quite entertaining, to say the least. Feel free to participate and best wishes on your continued journey. LA-EX

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:31:50 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Sam Subject: Where have I been Message:

Hi Sam, Don't worry. But do stick around and talk to people here. There are are plenty who will do that via email if you prefer. Writing a 'Journey's' entry can help. It gets easier, I promise... All Best Nigel

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:13:36 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Sam Subject: Where have I been Message:

Dear Sam, Welcome to the growing group of exes that frequent the forum! You've got a new, if more reality based safety net and if you can benifit you will find, I think, your progressive and successful exit will speed up, taking in all the info available on the relating sites and the conversations on the forum(s). And here's to a quick recovery! I first thought to write god speed but thought better of it. :) Love, Robyn

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 01:45:40 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzbog@usualstuff... To: Everyone Subject: Hey guys! Let's do the experiment right here! Message:

Brothers and sisters (or to put it another way, sisters and bros) in His Grace or otherwise.. please attend carefully. The task: (1) How many of the following seven passages are extracts from Maharaji's addresses? (2) Of those which were given by M, how many are from the 1970's (before M 'evolved') and how many from the 1990's? (Hint: none come from the 1980's) To prevent it being too easy, I have tweaked the punctuation, capitalisations, spellings and paragraphing to make the passages appear similar throughout, and I have changed any references to 'Perfect Master' or 'Guru Maharaj Ji' to simply 'the Master'. I think premies should have a go at this. It might help them sort out for themselves which inspirational materials are suitable for showing to new aspirants, or which are worth travelling a thousand miles to listen to.. Will premies or exes do better? I haven't a clue - though I suspect J-M will carry off the big prizes, unless YOU think you can do better. Oh yeah, the prizes.. The first correct answer will get a year's supply of charnamrit (Shri Hans special vintage - homeopathically diluted by Old Mother Tincture herself.) Runners-up will wish they'd won, and third placers will have the earth swallow them up.. I'll give the answers before the thread goes inactive (if I feel like it.) Ok,let's go.. (1) It's just like this really: where are we and what are we doing? Man looks up and sees this Moon in the sky. This beautiful Moon, and he says: 'I wonder if I could go up and land on it.. See what it's like up there. So he builds this amazing rocket, gets the best engineers to design it, and the first one maybe goes into orbit round the Earth.. Then he builds a better rocket and goes into orbit round the Moon.. Slowly, slowly all these rockets are getting bigger. They get more powerful, and they design this landing module which can detach from the main spaceship and it's like 'Hey, Jiminy Cricket!' Man has landed on the Moon. And so there he is, up there on the Moon, and it's like 'Wow, that is really something - man is on the Moon.' But then what does he do? He's standing there on the Moon - one guy, maybe two guys in these breathing helmets - they look up in the sky and what do they see? I'll tell you what they see: they see the Earth up there in the sky. And it's beautiful! And maybe at that moment they know, they realise something. They know the place they really want to be is there on the Earth. That's really how it is! Where we already are - that's where we most need to be.. > (2) Have you seen worms? Have you seen ants? I can understand what it means to be born as an ant or worm in your next birth. That's why it has been said: 'It is with great good fortune we secure this human body. It is rarely attained even by gods, as scriptures say. It is actually the means to practice Knowledge and the gateway to salvation...' But you just tell me one thing. Do ants go to their jobs? No. Do they get stuck in traffic jams? No. Do they pay taxes? No. Do they need to vote? No. Do they face all these worldly problems? No. Do they get two square meals a day? Yes. Do they have a place to live? Yes., So you just tell me one thing: There are those people too who sleep on the pavements and pass their time in trouble and tribulations. Now whose situation is better? The situation of ants or the situation of those people on the pavements? You tell me, those poor people who have no place to live, no food to eat, how do they fare in this world? Have you ever seen ants begging alms? Oh, everything is provided to ants... Have you ever seen ants saying, 'Yes sir. Yes sir!' Have you seen ants doing flattery without purpose? Have you seen ants saying, 'Please forgive me, oh forgive me?' So, you just tell me, on one side there is this human being and on the other is that ant. And for ants there are no restrictions. They are going on without any restraint. Then whose lot is better? > (3) And there's this question, this big mystery.. What is this life? - this precious life - what is it? Why do we have it? What do we do with it? I mean, we have these five senses and we have all these incredible things to experience. I mean, it's out there for us. So many things to get into, things we get lost in, and that's exactly what we do. Look at it like this: we have these eyes. We need these eyes to even see where we're going. But we also use them to see the beauty - just of the world. Also these ears.. life is tricky without them. Life is a problem. Sure it is. We need hearing for understanding each other. But also we can use those ears to listen to music. Whatever kind you like... we know what we prefer. I won't talk about that! Or the smelling sense - it's like that joke: 'My dog has no nose' and the other guy says, 'How does he smell?' and it's like 'Really bad!' meaning the dog smells really.. Ok, it's funny! It's a joke..! Ok, but is it really a joke? I don't mean it's funny not to have these senses. No, not that. I mean it's really no joke the way we are so caught up in these senses.. just tasting, just experiencing it all. And it's amazing. But it's really no joke that we miss the important thing. The thing our senses have no knowledge about.. The thing they don't even know about. They are supposed to be senses but sometimes they can't even sense it! >> (4) And we want things.. no doubt about it. We see something in a shop window, and that's what we want. A minute before we were happy.. just walking down the shopping mall or whatever. We're whistling and smiling, you know, kicking stones or something. Just feeling Ok, Not feeling great but Ok, Then we look in that shop window and we see something just so amazing it's like - 'Hey, I'm not happy any more - I want one of those..' No, it's worse than that, we say 'I need one of those..' Whatever it is, a golf bag or a hi-fi, lots of things - it could be anything. Something not too valuable at all, something that isn't really necessary.. But suddenly we want it, and we're not happy until we get it. If we're just a kid we'll pester our moms until we get it.. Remember that? But that's how it is later on, too. We grow up, we want different things but we still have to have them. So one way or other we get them. But then what? Are we happy yet? You bet we're not!' Tell me, why is that? I can tell you that. I can explain that, and that's what the Master always comes to tell you, what he comes to explain. And he'll explain it again and again - it's like a full-time job. Believe me, it is a full time job, sometimes! But the beautiful thing is, all you have to do is listen. Simple as that. Just listen and understand something. > (5) What is happiness? We know the word, what it means and sometimes we'll tell each other 'Yes, I'm really happy today'. And we mean it! But is it possible we don't even know what that word 'happy' really means? Perhaps we never even knew it, never really felt it inside. So we look for it outside. Of course we do. If we've never had something - I mean, maybe we've had it but now we've lost it, we look outside ourselves for it.. It's like my father, Shri Hans, used to say when someone in the residence lost something. They'd always start looking someplace furthest away - out in the garden and the flowerbeds or somewhere.. I mean it could be just they felt dumb for losing whatever it was and didn't want anyone to see them looking for it..! But Hans Ji always said 'Never look outside for what you lost indoors..' and that is so true. He wasn't talking about losing things, really losing things. He meant something else. That thing we really want, that thing we lost somewhere along the line.. and it's just like we know it's there somewhere. It's like an instinct, like a memory from way back… That happiness, and we go 'damn it! I just know it's gotta be here somewhere.' But isn't that really what it's like? Except if we don't know where we were when we lost our keys, and 'keys' is good, 'keys' is exactly right! - if we don't know where we were when it happened.. Ok, we kind of suspect they're in the house, inside us somewhere, but unless someone can show us where, then what chance do we have… Is there any chance of finding those keys? > (6) Some of you accept this Knowledge then go off and do your own thing. You say 'Thanks a lot [....], I have what I have now. I'll just go and practice it. Do it my way.' And the Master says 'Hang on a minute, are you going to be Ok?' And you say 'Sure. I know what to do. I understand it, I understand everything..' And in a way, that's all right. That's fine. Knowledge is free - no strings attached! If you want to do it like that, then that's what you can do, and the Master just says 'See you later, then..' And, believe me, the Master usually will see them later. Why? Because it's like this.. You're teaching this kid to read, and you give him the alphabet. So does the child know how to read? Has he learned to use the language? No - of course he hasn't - but that's what it's like. Exactly what it's like. This Knowledge is like a language. You get the techniques and it's like having your alphabet, but you don't even know what language you're learning. Because Knowledge isn't that kind of language. You won't find a vocabulary, won't find a dictionary anywhere. This isn't French or Chinese. This is the Master's own language - the language of all the great Masters. It is a language of love.. the language of happiness. In fact it isn't even 'about' anything like those other languages. In a way it's not only a language of love but a language about love, and it is the supreme language. So if you think you know what that means then, 'Ok, that's fine - off you go'. But just remember where you got the alphabet because that's where you'll find the vocabulary and all the rest of it. > (7) And here we all are again. And why? For that one reason, that one simple reason - to grasp that opportunity while we have it.. That continuity. That rare and precious thing, Just to be alive and in the company of our Master. Do we have any idea? Do we really have any idea how fortunate we are? What that means? Can we guess how many lifetimes it took? 'Lifetimes spent in ignorance, wasted years in searching…' All that time waiting for the one thing we most wanted? That thirst of which Kabir and Tulsidas spoke? I'll tell you this right now: that thirst itself is precious, for 'without the thirst there cannot be the joy of drinking at that well'. . I mean, do monkeys know that longing? No! Nor do they know the joy of fulfilment or recognition when they meet that living Master? No! To behold that Master and recognise the source of the fulfilment. To know the fulfilment and be merged with that Master? Because - it's crazy - that is it! That is all! That much is everything. What more is there? Yet we blow it! We blow it again and again. It isn't easy! Ok, it looks easy. When we hear the Master speak it sounds easy. Very easy. Knowledge is simple, right? Well, yes it is, but it is also the hardest thing, a dangerous thing. This is really is a treacherous path and it is easy to slip over the edge. And that is the reason we pray - pray constantly - to our Master to help us. To hold onto us - it's like he ties his rope around our middles, so we don't just go 'Hey, I wonder what will happen if I untie this knot!' Because that is what we do. Or we say 'I don't think this knot looks right. I'll untie it and see if I can tie a better one. It's like we always imagine we can see a better way of doing things - a better way of realising this Knowledge. So we untie the knot and, next thing, there we are at the foot of the mountain! If we're lucky we'll just have a sore head and we just have to go back and start climbing again. If we're not so lucky we'll have fallen too far - just blown it completely. Like the cat's nine lives - 'Uh-ho, there goes number nine! Help me, Lord! Can you get me out of this?' And it's not funny any more.. Seriously, it isn't. Because sometimes the Master can't get you out of it.'

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Date: Mon, May 22, 2000 at 18:46:21 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Nigel Subject: They're all from the 90s Maha - bar 5 and 6? Message:

They're all from the 90s Maha - bar 5 and 6? - 5 and 6 being you, Nige. My reasoning?: 'And, believe me, the Master usually will see them later ...' - too sophisticated. 'Never look outside for what you lost indoors...' too dumb. (then again ...)

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 20:25:55 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Nigel Subject: I'd only be guessing randomly Message:

Nigel, You did too good a job. I completely give up. And it's not as if I didn't try. I did. I read them through and read them again. I'm stumped.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:42:49 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Hey guys! Let's do the experiment right here! Message:

Here's my guess: 1 - M 70s 2 - M 90s 3 - not M 4 - not M 5 - not M 6 - M 70s 7 - M 90s

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 11:32:40 (GMT) From: Anon Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Hey guys! Let's do the experiment right here! Message:

1970's =(1,2,7 and 6)? 1990's=(3,4 and 5)?

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 03:50:45 (GMT) From: Mahatma Bungeejumpanandji Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Hey guys! Let's do the experiment right here! Message:

All M's quotes. 1,2,4,7 - 1970's 3,5,6 - 1990's

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:02:30 (GMT) From: Elaine B. Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Hey guys! Let's do the experiment right here! Message:

1.fake 2.Fakiranand 3.fake 4.GMJ-'90's 5.GMJ-70's 6.fake 7.fake I wish I could have said 'fake,fake,fake,fake' Then I really would have felt like Elaine B.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 14:58:38 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Elaine B. Subject: Hey guys! Let's do the experiment right here! Message:

1. Not M 2. M 90s 3. not M 4. not M 5. M 70s 6. M 90s 7. not M

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:08:44 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Elaine B. Subject: We have a contestant! Message:

Thanks Elaine. You've gone straight into the hat in case of a tied result. If no one else enters, of course, then you get the special vintage... How ya doin?

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:18:12 (GMT) From: Elaine B. Email: None To: Nigel Subject: We have a contestant! Message:

I'm doin' great,Nigel. And may I say this is a hell of a game you came up with. Excellent job.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 12:56:16 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Elaine B. Subject: We have more contestants! Message:

Hmm, there seems to be a pattern of responses shaping up. I really hope to get a few die-hard premies taking part, though. They must have ample experience of listening to M to identify the genuine articles more-or-less correctly. They ought to do better than the exes, surely..? Anyway, ta for getting the ball rolling E.

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 01:04:19 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Nigel Subject: We have more contestants! Message:

Ok, you sucked me in. Here's my guesses: 1, 3, 4, 5, 6 = 70's 2, 7 = 90's Marianne

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 23:33:02 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Darshan Line Extortion Message:

It's a while since we had this one. Could those in the know please comment on the following situation. Maharaji speaks repeatedly on the need for devotion or gratitude. Towards him of course. He also makes it clear that we should believe he is God in human form. He then arranges for all his followers to line up to kiss his feet. Having got the message out that chocolates, fruit or flowers aren't really appropriate expressions of devotion or gratitude, he has people standing by the line with plain white envelopes. Followers then take these envelopes and put money in them. They are then handed to more trusted followers who put these envelopes into a large bin. Afterwards, all the money is taken out and ....what? Is this kind of extortion of money legal in the USA, UK, France, Norway, Australia, or any other country where the practice took place? John.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 01:34:00 (GMT) From: Sam Email: None To: JHB Subject: Darshan Line Extortion Message:

Does this still happen, does anyone know? I'm surprised he doesn't have more darshan in that case.

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