Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 15:30:51 (GMT)
From: May 15, 2000 To: May 23, 2000 Page: 5 Of: 5


JW -:- Vietnam Revisionism -- the Media Again (OT) -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 22:53:26 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Vietnam Revisionism -- the Media Again (OT) -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 13:10:55 (GMT)
__ __ JW -:- Vietnam Revisionism -- the Media Again (OT) -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 17:15:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Vietnam Revisionism -- the Media Again (OT) -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 12:36:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- Get off it Scott -- -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 18:18:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott -:- Very disingenuous JW -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 21:56:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Congratulations Scott -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 22:31:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Congratulations Yourself -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 02:12:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Clueless? -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:33:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Not clueless. -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 22:48:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Not clueless. -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:36:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Nice. -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:55:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Sorry to slip in, as it were.... -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 19:33:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Sorry to slip in, as it were.... -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 03:54:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Here's Some Synchronicity -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 04:21:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Seymour Lipset -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 19:28:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Seymour Lipset -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 22:06:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Dysflexia -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 00:38:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Seymour Lipset -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:36:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Martin Lipset -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 22:59:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Martin Lipset -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:06:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Martin Lipset -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:29:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Elazar -:- Sat, May 20, 2000 at 00:18:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Bingo.... -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 21:00:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Bingo.... -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:16:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Here's Some Synchronicity -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 18:58:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Lipset -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:42:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Lipset -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:04:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Lipset -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:22:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Thanks--Very Interesting (nt) -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 19:20:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- I guess I am dumb -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 04:22:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott -:- That's one theory -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 04:39:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Oh Scott, how cleaver... -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 04:46:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Oh Joe, how Ginsu... -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 14:43:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Correction -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 23:13:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Correction -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 02:35:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Now you are being dumb -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 04:36:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Now you are being dumb -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 06:03:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Now you are being dumb -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:55:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Dumb is just a box of chocolates. -:- Fri, May 19, 2000 at 22:41:40 (GMT)
__ __ gErRy -:- BAby Bush for Sale--Sheesh... -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 15:07:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- gerry didn't you just describe............... -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 15:42:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ party dude verbatim words -:- a little of that yeah, will that be coke or pot to -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 22:46:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I seem to remember a few premies being invited up -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 01:23:39 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Revolution -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 14:08:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Daneane -:- Revolution -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 02:30:17 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- I Love The Smell Of Napalm In The Morning -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 06:36:31 (GMT)
__ __ JW -:- The Effect on the Vietnamese -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 17:03:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- The Effect on the Vietnamese -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 22:13:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- Well, there was the Civil War..... -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 22:47:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Talk About Amnesia :-)).... -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 23:08:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Talk About Amnesia :-)).... -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 02:39:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Talk About Amnesia :-)).... -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 03:46:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- I Agree -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 19:03:56 (GMT)
__ Powerman -:- Vietnam Revisionism -- the Media Again (OT) -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 23:45:08 (GMT)
__ __ JW -:- Thanks, Powerman. Glad you noticed.... -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 04:48:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Powerman -:- Thanks, Powerman. Glad you noticed.... -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 15:43:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Kissinger's rough ride with Paxman -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 09:37:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Paxman.....Great name -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 22:23:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- That interview in full... -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 17:31:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- What is the name of Paxman's show???? -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 21:08:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- It's now on the net... -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 21:24:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- That interview ... -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 19:20:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- Yes, I would have loved that.... -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 17:27:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Yuk... -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 17:46:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Yuk... -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 22:19:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Sorry, that's Iraq, NOT Iran -- correction. -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 17:31:06 (GMT)

Brian -:- Software Upgrade -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 21:40:18 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Software Upgrade: how many coffee pots? -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 07:43:06 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- 10 pots of coffee and a carton of cigarettes (ot) -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 13:14:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- 10 pots of coffee and a carton of cigarettes (ot) -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 14:09:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Brian -:- Pedal me back to Ol' Virginny -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 15:02:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Mountains of misery and beans. -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 12:44:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Super Brat -:- Pedal me back to Ol' Virginny -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 16:44:51 (GMT)

Powerman -:- embarrassment contest -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:40:57 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- You'll have to make it more than three... -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 17:00:53 (GMT)
__ JW -:- What about Heaven's Gate?? -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:59:52 (GMT)
__ __ Powerman -:- What about Heaven's Gate?? -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 20:11:26 (GMT)
__ EV-ex -:- embarrassment contest -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:53:41 (GMT)
__ __ Powerman -:- My mistake-Heaven's Gate is tops NT -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 20:17:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- By coincidence... -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 21:52:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Happy -:- The Tuggies in India: 1 million murders -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 20:22:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- God, Murders by Disposable Diapers -- what next!?! -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 23:12:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Usually translated as Thugs -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 02:02:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Happy -:- Usually translated as Thugs -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 13:22:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- The ISKCON 11 -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 22:56:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- The ISKCON 11--Reading Matter -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 00:04:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Angry -:- The cult that couldn't hide -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 22:13:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- The cult that couldn't hide -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 22:35:53 (GMT)

Coach -:- Latvian band come third -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:08:54 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Sorry, Latvians sucked! -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:21:52 (GMT)
__ __ Happy -:- Sorry, Latvians sucked! -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 20:23:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Sorry, Latvians sucked! -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 17:27:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- JHB -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 18:12:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Sorry, Latvians sucked! -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 13:29:43 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Read this!!!! EV's scared of me!!!!!! Too funny!!! -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 16:14:09 (GMT)
__ G willikers -:- Gosh, I didn't realise -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 02:26:09 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- This really is hysterical -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 22:56:04 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Teeth Alert! Any garbage? nt -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 15:11:55 (GMT)
__ Sir David BF and Bar -:- Read this!!!! EV's scared of me!!!!!! Too funny!!! -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 12:48:40 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Read this!!!! EV's scared of me!!!!!! Too funny!!! -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 07:57:32 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- In the land of paranoia... -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 22:21:18 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- Smacks of the bugging of the London DLM HQ -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 16:28:30 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- I knew this would happen! -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 16:19:45 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Katie, did you check your new neighbours? -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 14:00:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- EV is welcome to stop by here... -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 14:37:01 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- I knew this would happen! -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 17:35:33 (GMT)
__ __ Gail -:- Why don't they realize that . . . . -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 17:31:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Gail, can you imagine... -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:04:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Ex-premie leaders? hahahahahaha -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 18:38:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Ex-premie leaders will need lawyers !!!!! haha -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 07:32:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ VP -:- Ex-premie leaders will need lawyers !!!!! haha -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 01:36:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ zelda -:- Ex-premie leaders will need lawyers !!!!! haha -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 12:42:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Hey, small is beautiful! -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 14:34:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Well said Katie (nt) -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 15:32:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Leitenant Zelda -:- Freelance Metropolitan Syndicate want recognition. -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:14:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Happy -:- Strategy meetings. -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 20:18:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Strategy meetings, welcome !!! -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 07:35:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Happy -:- Strategy meetings, welcome !!! -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 13:23:26 (GMT)

thin mann -:- Anand Band -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 14:47:14 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- meditation -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:34:02 (GMT)
__ __ thin mann -:- meditation -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 17:45:19 (GMT)

SamTheFrog -:- Off-subject/Q to Selene -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 12:21:02 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- running several servers actually -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:35:02 (GMT)
__ __ raina -:- running several servers actually -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 15:50:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- raina what am I going to do with you? :) -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:20:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ raina -:- raina what am I going to do with you? :) -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 18:27:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- and speaking of -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 19:01:52 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- going to ISP after A4 as well perhaps? -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 23:01:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ and yet another PS! -:- only a geek would laugh at this -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 23:25:44 (GMT)

DeProGram Anand Ji -:- Taking A Poll on Mili -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 12:19:54 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Taking A Poll on Mili -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 14:16:48 (GMT)
__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Taking A Poll on Mili -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 15:46:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ VP -:- Taking A Poll on Manners -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 03:30:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- Dear DD -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 16:05:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Dear DD -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 20:09:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Dear DD -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 22:00:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Dear Way -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 03:03:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Re:Dear Way -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 14:46:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Re:Dear Way -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 06:15:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You have to know Dog was always marginal -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 15:46:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Yeah I remember the 70's -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 02:39:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- okay Jim, gotta admit the Dog was pretty funny -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 14:05:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Funny ... but typically off the point -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 03:10:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Funny ... and typically on the point -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 03:48:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, you can't do that! -:- Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 06:49:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Wm -:- Eyow -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 00:11:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Mitsubishi? - perhaps moxibustion? (nt) -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 16:05:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Pranam -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 10:15:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Pranam -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 14:01:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Angry -:- Needed Correction re. Swinging -:- Tues, May 16, 2000 at 09:27:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- M taught 3rd technique this way - in the 90s! -:- Wed, May 17, 2000 at 14:56:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Q -:- Swingers -:- Mon, May 15, 2000 at 22:30:41 (GMT)


Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 22:53:26 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Vietnam Revisionism -- the Media Again (OT)
Message:
I have this problem in reading the media. How can things get this bad? Did anyone else notice? The Vietnam War was such a defining moment in many of our histories, before becoming cult members, that is. It gave me an ulcer reading and listening to our current coverage of that awful war.

In commemorating the twenty-fifth anniversary of the fall of Saigon on April 30, the mainstream media revisited Vietnam to cast the U.S.role in a flattering light. That's the only way I can see it. Revisionism pure and simple.

I noticed for one thing that US commentators refrained from mentioning that the US LOST the war, while I noticed that the BBC had no problem saying it. It seemed to me that most of the coverage in the US press was flattering to US motives and/or was from the perspective of returning US soldiers, without much (very needed) analysis of why the US sent the soldiers to Vietnam in the first place, and what they expected them to do there. I think this is still too painful for the American psyche -- this kind of self-analysis seems to be avoided like the plague, even though it seems we are quite willing to tell everyone else in the world what they ought to do and not do.

The notable exception was my beloved New York Times, which blamed President Johnson and Nixon for the 'reckless spilling of American and Vietnamese blood.' Its editorial also said, 'No compelling national interest was served by waging war in Vietnam, and the men who directed the war, including Johnson and his Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, and Nixon and Kissenger, knew it at the time.' Bravo!

The Washington Post, by contrast, rallied around the flag. Its editorial on April 30 said, 'For the sake of the 58,000 Americans who lost their lives in Vietnam, it is important to recall the large and just cause for which they made their sacrifice.' (It never explained what the 'large and just cause' was, however.) The Post also expressed relief that 'the Gulf War
cured the armed forces of the debilitating Vietnam syndrome.' GGeeezzz!

To reinforce its position, the Post ran an op-ed the same day by Senator Bob Kerrey, Democrat of Nebraska, who received the Medal of Honor for service in Vietnam. Kerrey wrote, 'We were fighting on the right side. . . . The cause was just and the sacrifice not in vain.' The reason the United States lost, he said, was: 'We succumbed to fatigue and self-doubt.' I notice that John McCain was at the same time off visiting Vietnam and lecturing the Vietnamesse in the same way.

Next to Kerrey's commentary, the Post ran five accounts from Vietnamese Americans, every one of them bemoaning the U.S. departure. At least four of the five were South Vietnamese military officers or their relatives. Nowhere in the Washington Post was there a hint of another Vietnamese perspective, or another U.S. perspective, for that matter.

Newsweek, owned by the Washington Post Company, was equally lopsided in its coverage. The May 1 issue had two long articles on Vietnam. The first was by Evan Thomas entitled 'The Last Days of Saigon.' The piece was all but bereft of analysis except that Vietnam was 'at once a noble cause and a tragic waste,' and 'a low moment in the American Century, a painful reminder of the
limits of power.'

The other article was by-- I'm not kidding you here-- Henry Kissinger! Akin to having Goering write about the blitzkrieg, Newsweek let Kissinger (he of the secret wars in Laos and Cambodia, he of the mining of Haiphong's harbors, he of the 'madman' theory of diplomacy) retouch his own portrait
even as he smeared the protesters once more.

Impervious to this day to the more than two million Vietnamese the U.S. military killed, Kissinger had the audacity to say: 'One of the most important casualties of the Vietnam tragedy was the tradition of American 'exceptionalism.' The once near-universal faith in the uniqueness of our values- and their relevance around the world- gave way to intense divisions
over the very validity of those values and the lengths we should go to promote and defend them.' It was then that I vomited.

I wait for Newsweek and The Washington Post to give Howard Zinn, Noam Chomsky or Philip Berrigan equal time.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 13:10:55 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Vietnam Revisionism -- the Media Again (OT)
Message:
Joe:

I wonder what happened to the era of dissent, when it appeared according to the media that just about everyone had been against the war all along? Both perspectives are distortions, though they seem to meet the preferences of different constituencies.

As for Kissinger's comment about American Exceptionalism... he needs to go back to school. If we, indeed, have 'unique' values (a word more often reserved for the Japanese, BTW) then there's not much point in discussing our influence on other nations, democratization, etc. I've often wondered why most new nations have chosen to follow the failed example of the French Revolution, rather than the successful example of the American Revolution. Perhaps this peculiar and mistaken notion of 'exceptionalism' is the cause. However, America's real exceptionalism is, and has always been, a double edged sword. 'Exceptional' doesn't always mean either 'better' or 'worse,' and Tocqueville did not intend to say that the US was exceptional in the way Kissinger implies. Indeed, I would argue that it was core American values that eventually got us out of that war, just as it was core American values that initiated the Civil Rights Movement. Johnson and Nixon failed miserably to perceive those values accurately, and paid for it eventually. Perhaps they didn't pay enough for the preferences of some, but they were, after all, duly elected. For some reason it has proved difficult for the operatives of both parties to consistently understand this country, and it's values. That's probably more a function of partisan politics, and lack of education, than anything else.

I tend to pull to the right, but that's because I bat lefthanded.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 17:15:30 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Vietnam Revisionism -- the Media Again (OT)
Message:
Kissinger was obviously implying that the 'exceptionalism' of America is a good thing. It's basically the 'religion of America' that all our values are basically the values that everyone else wants, but for the fact that they aren't quite as 'exceptional.' It really is crap, but it helps to have that belief system to avoid the unpleasant reality that this country is reaponsible for the deaths of millions of people around the world.

We shoot down an Iranian airliner full or passengers or bomb the Chinese Embassy, and it's a terrible accident. If Lybia does it, we bomb their country. Exceptional countries never do anything wrong because they are exceptional. They have a dispensation from god from ever doing anything wrong. Our only problem is sometimes we get 'fatigued' and have 'self-doubt' due to the naysayers in this country who don't buy the 'religion of America.' I think this is what Kissinger means.

If the 'core American values' that got us out of the war were that the war became unpopular because of the heavy casualties, had no clear purpose and hence no deep support, and was draining the treasury requiring Johnson to raise taxes, then I agree with you, those 'values' got us out of the war.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 12:36:18 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Vietnam Revisionism -- the Media Again (OT)
Message:
Joe:

American Exceptionalism, and the literature associated with it, happen to me part of my area of specialization. Significant contributions have been made to that literature by prominent socialists, including, but not limited to, Louis Hartz and F. Engels. As usual you are misusing a concept in order to make a questionable ideological point. Say what you like, this literature is both deep and wide, and apparently all but unknown to you.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 18:18:23 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Get off it Scott --
Message:
Your condescension is once again beneath you, Scott, and so is shaking your credentials. It stinks and is in bad taste, and transparent to everyone here.

It seems with all your education you didn't learn to read. I me, JW, JOE was NOT MISUING ANY CONCEPT. I was saying what I think KISSINGER meant by it, NOT ME. And you, Mr. super-intellectual yourself, already agreed he was misuing it. Try not being such a condescending bastard and talk to real people, Scott. I for one remain very unimpressed by your ability to throw around names to show off and show us all how smart you are. It's disgusting.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 21:56:06 (GMT)
From: Scott
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Very disingenuous JW
Message:
Joe:

'And you, Mr. super-intellectual yourself, already agreed he was misuing it.'

If that's all you intended to say then why post anything? No, what *you* were saying was that Americans think of themselves as 'exceptional' and therefore that they have some sort of manifest destiny. I don't think such an insight is relevant to anything. And if the only consideration of Americans in making the decision to exit from Vietnam was some sort of cost benefit relating to the body count this is tantamount to saying that the antiwar movement had no real impact. Nope, I think you're just jerking your knee, as usual. It must be excrutiating not to understand your own country, to the extent that you automatically link 'Americanism' with some genocidal plot to maintain inequality and privilege. Uh uhh, I think this is what you're saying... not some obscure parsing of Kissinger's words. Talk about transparent.

And if I happen to have an area of expertise then mentioning it is just fair warning that I'm not going to suffer any BS. Your standard approach when you wade a bit too deeply into the quicksand is some sort of personal attack. It's all over your face, my friend.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 22:31:44 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott
Subject: Congratulations Scott
Message:
At least you said something, instead of just dismissing me as someone too stupid to have a conversation with, like you did in your earlier post. That's what I think you were being a jerk about, and I think you still are. Disagree with me if you want to, but you have no right to just dismiss me like you did. It was condescending and I won't stand for it so fuck off.

But you are exasperating. Because you don't read, I think because you are too caught up in your own head. For the record, my point was that the media coverage was biased on the Vietnam anniversay. YOU said Kissinger was misuising American exceptionalism and I told you what I thought Kissinger meant. You responded with your condescending 'I am an expert on this and you aren't, assinine post.'

Of course the anit-war movement had an impact. Who said it didn't? But I'm sure you aren't suggesting that Nixon withdrew from Vietnam only because of war protests. After the draft ended those protests decreased significantly, after the withdrawl of most US troops they decreased even more. The US continued the war for years after that. It was because the war lost popular support that it ended. No because Nixon was convinced of anything my the anti-war movement, except that he and his party would suffer politically if he continued the war the way he had. But then, being that you are a lot smarter than everyone else here, I'm sure you knew that.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 02:12:22 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Congratulations Yourself
Message:
JW:

All I said, with admittedly little tact, was that you are ignorant, and that ignorance misleads you in terms of your assumptions and conclusions about what can and should be accomplished in the name of reform. If you had been open to the idea that you don't know it all I might have been less obnoxious. I get frustrated too.

Kissinger was obviously implying that the 'exceptionalism' of America is a good thing.

As a generality it *is* a good thing. According to Tocqueville (and I have no idea whether you've read Toqueville or not) the reason that the US was the first democratic nation had to do with this exceptionalism. That was the theme of 'Democracy in America.' He didn't claim it was *all* good. He went into great detail about the potential for evil. We have more crime and more violence. 'Tyranny of the Majority' is a real possibility. We are not 'virtuous' in the classic sense, but merely 'decent.' All of this is true to some extent. But make no mistake... without this exceptionalism there would not have been a new democratic nation at that time, and the concept of Lockean individual rights would have been limited to the Scottish experiment under the thumb of the British Crown. They were making pretty slow headway.

It's basically the 'religion of America' that all our values are basically the values that everyone else wants, but for the fact that they aren't quite as 'exceptional.'

Kissenger thinks this? I don't really disagree with this statement if we're clear that the term 'religion of America' is just a descriptive approximation. What makes a Frenchman 'French?' What makes an Italian 'Italian?' What makes a Dutchman 'Dutch?' In each case it is some sort of identificaton with an ethnic heritage, though perhaps not all Frenchmen can trace their lineage to a Gaul. But what makes an 'American' is the subscription to the basic Ideology (Lockean, Madisonian, and religious sectarian), and that fact of our national identity is fundamentally what makes us 'exceptional.' It is fundamentally inclusive too. We don't exclude Frenchmen, or Dutchmen, or Germans, though we have been gradually expanding protestant sectarian to a more general sectarianism that may one day even include Islam. There was one other nation unified and founded under the banner of an ideology, but it no longer exists, and it lagged the US by 140 years.

It is understandable that some Americans would think this exceptionalism makes us always right, and should make us invincable. It is a problem of human nature, and as such it is comprehensible and resolvable. It does not make America evil, as you appear to suggest. The tragedy is that I don't encounter many Americans who understand the American nature. It's not hard to understand, so I am frustrated. It does not take great intelligence. It's certainly no more difficult than disassembling a bicycle's headset. Yet, for some reason, it took a foreigner to provide the definitive analysis of the US, and another foreigner to tell us that we were fed up with the caste system that was diametrically opposed to Americanism. This is an aspect of exceptionalism that just looks like ignorance to me. It may be because I'm arrogant, or it may be that I too am ignorant of something.

I see present day reformers, like yourself, with agendas that at least in their intent are important and significant, manifesting the same self ignorance, and it just baffles me! Why do you believe this exceptionalism is your enemy??? Who misinformed you so dramatically? Why did you believe them?

Perhaps it's that we just can't see some things that have become so integral to the way we think and live that they virtually define the context of our lives. I don't know. But it is still tragic ignorance, given what *could* be accomplished with understanding. I sometimes think that all the reformers are able to do is create a guilty conscience, so in this sense I see what Kissenger means... or perhaps should mean.

I know you are a sensitive and intelligent fellow, but you are frustrating to me as well. I get carried away. I don't think I'm all that intelligent. I can't figure out what Jobst Brandt is talking about half the time, when he describes how to build a bicycle wheel, or install a bottom bracket. That guy is way smarter than me, and way more arrogant.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:33:07 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Clueless?
Message:
Scott, get a clue.

If you disagree with my opinions, that's fine. If you have something to add to the discussion, that's fine too. But most people don't expect to engage in a discussion with someone by doing neither and instead just dismissing someone as being too 'ignorant' to talk to, which is what you did, and don't even seem to recognize, and which I objected to. That isn't about tact. It's more in the realm of basic interpersonal communication skills, ettiquite, and just plain respect for the person you are talking to.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 22:48:51 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Not clueless.
Message:
Joe:

If you disagree with my opinions, that's fine. If you have something to add to the discussion, that's fine too. But most people don't expect to engage in a discussion with someone by doing neither and instead just dismissing someone as being too 'ignorant' to talk to...

I'm talking to (with) you, aren't I? You *do* descend to personal attacks when agitated, which admittedly is not often. As for interpersonal skills, I'll work on that. I apologize if my presumptions kept you from expressing your range of knowledge. Something I need to be more aware of, obviously.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:36:11 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Not clueless.
Message:
There are a number of things I sometimes do when I'm agitated, but it seems to take no provocation at all for Scott to descend into rank condescension. Usually I ignore it; that time I couldn't.
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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:55:11 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Nice.
Message:
Joe:

Thanks for directing your little speech at the forum instead dialoguing with me in particular. Really on target, and shows your exceptional 'interpersonal skills.' Wonder what those 'number of things' could be, and what provokes them? I think 'rank condescension' is not really the heart of it, is it?

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 19:33:36 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Sorry to slip in, as it were....
Message:
'Perhaps it's that we just can't see some things that have become so integral to the way we think and live that they virtually define the context of our lives. I don't know. '

Beautifully put Scott.

Having lived in a country saturated with US culture, you see things slightly differently and a little more clearly.
Always easier to see other peoples errors.

The values that get carried with the sweep of US influence globally, mixed in with that american (premie) arrogance, into a stewing pot where locals have less power, causes loss of empowerment. Financially you might be better off (being generous), the cultural effects are castrating. Not until those cultures can set up a serious mutation of the US mindthink do they have any hope.
And by then the agenda has been set.
Money rules again.
As with all those countries in power at different times over the century, as well as all gurus have known, filling their minds is crucial to taking their money, or at least protecting their money.

For what it's worth that's my take.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 03:54:10 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Sorry to slip in, as it were....
Message:
Hamzen:

Well... uhh... I guess so. I mean, Australia looks just a little bit too much like the US. Is that what you mean? Something is wrong. The problem of generating a beneficial 'mutation' is a lot more complicated than when we mutated English civil society and copied Scottish values. There aren't any new places where a group could start over without the past being on all horizons. A lot harder to get an outside look.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 04:21:04 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Here's Some Synchronicity
Message:
I was cruising my local bookstore, looking for a book on South Boston, when I came across a book called 'American Exceptionalism,' by Seymour Martin Lipset. Is it a good book, or is he a good source? I've never heard of American exceptionalism until this thread, and then I run into this book. Another big blank in my knowledge bank.
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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 19:28:40 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Seymour Lipset
Message:
I think his most recent book, about 4 years old now, is something about American exceptionalism being a 'double-edged sword.' But he has been writing about it for years. This book had a lot of data showing that a lot of the ideas about 'exceptionalism', aren't seen that way by large segments f the US public. He has lots of polling data in the book regarding that. The reason the whole subject kind of bothers me is that people like Kissinger (as I was trying to say above) use the term to give the US dispensation to do whatever it wants, and he laments a tough lesson like Vietnam that might make Americans think there are limits to how 'exceptional' they are, even if that means killing millions of people for no apparent purpose.

Lipset uses the basic things we were all taught in school about the nature of Americans. Individualism, populism, laissez faire attitudes towards social benefits and equality, etc., that we have been taught make us different from Canadians and Europeans. And also this religious attitude that Americans have that seems to infect our domestic and especially our foreign policies.

But what Lipset shows in his book is that the various segments of the US society see things quite differently. There isn't any agreement on what is 'exceptional', it depends on who you talk to. For example blacks and whites view racism and discrimination issues in almost diamentrically opposite ways.

But, again, I don't think Kissinger was talking about any of that. I think he was talking about how Americans feel more limited because of the fact that they lost the Vietnam war. But, given the destruction we cause when we are feeling unlimited, to me, that's excactly as it should be and shouldn't be something to lament about.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 22:06:45 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: freewheeling@bigfoot.com
To: JW
Subject: Seymour Lipset
Message:
Joe:

The reason the whole subject kind of bothers me is that people like Kissinger (as I was trying to say above) use the term to give the US dispensation to do whatever it wants, and he laments a tough lesson like Vietnam that might make Americans think there are limits to how 'exceptional' they are, even if that means killing millions of people for no apparent purpose.

I have some reservations about why you're bothered by the term, because it's not clear to me that Kissenger knows what he means, if anything. Frankly, I think Henry is just blowing it out his ass. A bigger bullshitter there never was. Brezinski wouldn't have said it, that's for sure. However, there *have to be* limits on how exceptional we are, because if not then there is nothing about the country that has any relevance for anyone else on the planet. As I said before, it is probably exceptional for any people to debate and recognize a collective mistake, *especially* when it involves an action that creates so much human tragedy. Some, or perhaps most, national cultures based on ethnic identity have been even less willing than the US to have this sort of airing, when the stakes are high. There is not much room for debate about what is 'French' or 'German.' Clearly it was much more difficult to place limits on 'Germanness' or 'Serbness,' not to mention 'Irishness.' So the fact that we interpret our founding principles in some diverse way not only does not diminish them, it makes them all-important.

I think we should be talking about the deaths of 100,000 Iraqis (or more) killed by the US during the Gulf War as compared with... what... something like 30 American deaths? There is something indecent about that, and we ought to be talking about it, and to have some remorse for it, *even if* we deem it wholly justified. We are not a virtuous people in that sense. But since there *were* Americans who wanted to talk about that, and were prevented from doing so by the press, perhaps it's the values of the American press that are the most relevant.

But what Lipset shows in his book is that the various segments of the US society see things quite differently. There isn't any agreement on what is 'exceptional', it depends on who you talk to. For example blacks and whites view racism and discrimination issues in almost diamentrically opposite ways.

That's going too far, is all I'll say. There is a lot of agreement, and the agreement is growing, across subgroups and regions. If you meet a black or a white American in some foreign country the thing that's most obvious about them is their Americaness, not their Blackness, or their Whiteness. But Marty does say that different parts of American society have much different interpretions about how these principles ought to be applied, or how they relate to our unique social problems. There is an inherant conflict between individualism and equality, but to be American is to believe in both. Like the Constitution itself, that's what makes the notion of Exceptionalism so powerful. And that's also why it's nearly impossible to be an effective reformer without a clear grasp of this concept.

Thanks for this contribution Joe. I apologize for offending you. As I said before, I'm probably more prone to acting out of pure frustration than most, and acting badly. And I rarely rise to being insulted myself with a smile and a shrug. I hope this doesn't permanently scar our relationship, if there's anything left of it. You are welcome to solicit specific apologies from me offline, if it's convenient.

BTW, Lipset is one of those people who goes by their middle rather than their first name. If you met him you'd see what a hoot it is to hear someone call him 'Seymour.' Have you ever seen a Kodiak bear with dysflexia?

--Scott

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 00:38:30 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Dysflexia
Message:
Hmm... The text of this post seems to have vanished. including my misspelling of dyslexia. Oh well.
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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:36:31 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Seymour Lipset
Message:
From my extremely unknowledgeable layperson's pov, it seems that exceptionalism is propounded by the majority rule in order to maintain their majority rule.
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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 22:59:14 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Martin Lipset
Message:
Mon:

All I can say is that that's a perfect exposition of the Marxist principle of 'false consciousness.' (Sorry for dropping another name, but this one I think you recognize.) The fact is that American Exceptionalism doesn't have to be propounded by anyone. The convictions were dictated to the leaders, who then expressed them formally and with eloquence in the founding documents. I hope I don't need to discuss history to prove that. The fact that the convictions have remained coherent and undiminished for 200 years ought to be some proof that the origins reside in something more robust than propaganda. But hey, you believe what you want.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:06:53 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Martin Lipset
Message:
Scott:
I know next to zilch about this; I'm just trying to understand it from my limited perspective. I hadn't meant that I considered 'exceptionalism' to be propaganda of any sort. So, are you saying that exceptionalism is more institutional than any particular doctrine? Or that it's just built into the American psyche, more or less, through the function of time? No doubt, I am not using the language of the discipline, but I assume you understand what I am asking.
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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:29:17 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Martin Lipset
Message:
Mon:

Exactly. And the way it was ensconced was through a traumatic founding event: the American Revolution. There are other traumatic events that instilled more dimensionality, such as the westward expansion, and then there's the north/middle/south thing. Lipset doesn't deal with this much. That would be Daniel Elizar [sp?] from Temple University. I can't recall the name of his book, but it's quite fascinating. Reading it you'll get this uncanny sense that you've come to know more about your neighbors than you really wanted to. Spooky. I need to eat a meal. If I think of the name of the book before the thread goes under I'll post it.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, May 20, 2000 at 00:18:02 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Elazar
Message:
Mon:

Elazar, D. J. (1994). The American Mosaic: The Impact of Space, Time, and Culture on American Politics. Boulder, CO, Westview Press.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 21:00:47 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Bingo....
Message:
Well said. At least that was how Kissinger used it, or how he was saying it in order to revise history in a more favorable way to the US, and especially to himself, who has a big fanny on the line as a major war criminal.

Regarding Lipset, I remember something I read that he wrote years ago, that the two most religious countries in the world were the USA and India, but that the USA was much more FANATICALLY religious than any other country, including India. I remember that was surprising to me when I read it, but I actually think he's right.

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:16:45 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Bingo....
Message:
Joe:

Did he use the word 'fanatical?' At the risk of saying something on topic, that might be one reason why M won the jackpot when he got here. There's an obvious spillover to politics too. I know he has a theory that the next big political movement in this country will be an extreme anarchism of the left (as opposed to the libertarian variety). He feels that this conforms sufficiently to the American Ideology that it will start to snowball and at a certain point will become a serious social movement. He also wrote a book called 'The Politics of Unreason' where he analyzes extremist movements of the left and right in the US up to about 1960. He's wanted to update that for some time.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 18:58:10 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Here's Some Synchronicity
Message:
Monmot:

Most people consider Marty a good source. His books are very readable, and of interest to both academics and lay persons. A book he published some 40 years ago is still required reading in most poli-sci programs: *Political Man*. For a directly opposing view see Charles Taylor. (I want to be fair.) Martin started out as a Trotskyite at City College of NY, in a group called the 'Campbellites.' Interesting story. Apparently Kruschev ordered the production of English translations of all prominent Marxists, and neglected to exclude Trotsky. As a result an entire generation of anti-soviet socialists came into being. They were called 'neo-conservatives' until the press mistakenly started using that term to refer to Reaganites.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:42:37 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Lipset
Message:
The book says Lipset is the Hazel Professor of Public Policy at George Mason University. Is that the university you're at?
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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:04:10 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Lipset
Message:
Mon:

Yes. Marty was the chair of my dissertation committee. Guess I can't claim to be all that objective, but I'm sure you'll make up your own mind.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 23:22:32 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Lipset
Message:
Pls. don't be offended by my questions. As I've said, I know zip about this stuff, plus I don't know if objectivity exists anyway.

Thanks
M

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 19:20:57 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Thanks--Very Interesting (nt)
Message:
mmm
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 04:22:37 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: I guess I am dumb
Message:
Scott, I haven't the slightest idea what your long-winded post has to do with what we were talking about, except to let you do more pretentious name-dropping that is. Thanks for pointing that I'm ignorant, although I don't get where you used any tact.
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 04:39:13 (GMT)
From: Scott
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: That's one theory
Message:
Another is that you're just dishonest.
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 04:46:34 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott
Subject: Oh Scott, how cleaver...
Message:
But you missed your chance to impress us to say from which political theorist you got that nasty retort. Was it from Clauswitz?
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 14:43:15 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Oh Joe, how Ginsu...
Message:
Ignorance is not stupidity, so perhaps you are just being dishonest about being stupid. I spilt a few electrons attempting to seriously deal with the issues that underlie your various, inconsistent, contentions about the US (or 'us')... to which I get the response 'long winded' and 'off topic' and 'an excuse for name dropping.'

It might be (and this is just another theory, because I really don't know... so am quite literaly making the best of my own ignorance) that you've decided that the founding values are resistant to your agenda (which they are, on some level) and impervious to your argument (also true). That leaves you with the rather limited tactic of claiming the messenger is corrupt. This appears to me to be a subtle form of dishonesty.

I thought you knew who Von Clauswitz was, so the mention was just shorthand. Let me clarify. If I forfeit a contest because I don't deem the expenditure of resources worth continued effort then it's fair to say that I lost. It could also be true that this was not entirely an economic decision, or that my concern for economical action is, itself, motivated by a larger concern (justice, fairness, the worthiness of my own effort, etc.). I contend, for instance, that the Highway Interests (or the 'Road Gang' as they are often called in the legislature) allowed the passage of the Intermodal Surface Transportation Efficiency Act (ISTEA) because they were no longer convinced of the rightness of their own position (build more roads wherever possible). They didn't completely lie down on their backs, but they did fail to muster much of a fight to oppose a bill they could have easily defeated with the expenditure of a bit more political capital.

Clauswitz's contention is that war is continuaton of diplomacy by other means, and that a country will be defeated only when the actions of the enemy have resulted in the decimation of the civilian population, and when the last ounce of resources have been spent in the defense of the home front. But, with Vietnam, we clearly have a situaton not foreseen by Clauswitz, where an enemy can influence the civilian population directly by appealing to their own foundational values, and pitting the inconsistences against one another. My argument is simply that this new (although not without precendent) mechanism was successful. Indeed, I would argue that such a strategy is far more likely to meet with success in a 'new nation' (founded on a set of coherent ideological principles) than in an 'old nation' (founded on ethnic identity).

I mention people who have made these arguments before, not to 'name drop' but because it's inefficient to reinvent the wheel every time you want to go for a drive.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 23:13:24 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Correction
Message:
Actually, to state it correctly, the Vietnam War ended because the US was defeated by the Vietnamese. The reason Nixon withdrew US troops was because the war lost support because of heavy US casualties. The reason Nixon stopped escalating the war was because he knew he couldn't win and the war was damaging at home politically.
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 02:35:46 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Correction
Message:
Joe:

At the risk of being condescending again, just think about this for a moment. We certainly did not lose the war in the Clauswitz sense. It's more in the Shelby Foote sense, with one hand and one leg tied and both eyes closed. We lost that war in the same sense that the British lost the American Revolution, because they had bigger fish to fry. For this to happen there must never have been full committment to the conflict and in the end we simply withdrew what little committment there had been. Why were we never committed? We are perfectly capable of spending the money and lives to win a conflict that we deem vital. What became clear, after a long drawn out and bitter national debate, was that we were ambigous about whether we had been fighting an enemy for just and good reasons. America only goes to war against Satan, and only stays at war as long as it believes it's fighting Satan. Whatever Nixon did to end the war he did as an agent, after seeing that the war no longer had a significant fraction of the will of the people. Politicians can read viscera. If the war had ever had the full will of the people we'd have won it, just as surely as the British would have won the Revolutionary War, in which case we'd be singing 'Oh Canada' as the national anthem. (I know some people thought this would have been a good thing. We called them Torries.)

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 04:36:01 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Now you are being dumb
Message:
In the Vietnam War we did not reach our goals or objectives in the war that we set out with. We lost. The Vietnamese did meet their goals and objectives in the war -- they won. We lost the war because the Vietnamese were committed to fighting to the last man if necessary and the US was not. Saying that we 'could' have won the war in some academic, theorectical sense, under the right conditions, is meaningless. We still lost. Countries often lose wars because they have not enough will to fight them, especially in the US case, where it was clear there was absolutely no threat to the US based on what was going on the Vietnam. If all you can say is that we could have won if we had the will, then I think all you are saying is the lack of will was the reason we lost. It's a circular argument, in my opinion, to make the US feel better for losing its first war. And I would suggest that if we had the 'will' (and I'm very glad we didn't, there would have been millions more deaths in a meaningless and pointless conflict.)

The Pentagon Papers, if you read them, were clear that all the military experts said the war was not winnable, except with the use of nuclear weapons and/or the infliction of casualties in the hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of US soldiers. Nixon knew that when he came into office and he continued the war for 7 more years.

And I disagree that the US only goes to war against satan. The US goes to war all the time, but only commits ground troops against satan. We bomb other countries quite regularly, and we arm surrogates and use the CIA to fight wars on our behalf, and we can do that for many years and most Americans couldn't care less. Examples: Nicaragua, Guatamala, Indonesia, Angola, Iraq, Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam after 1973, El Salvador, Chile, Iran, and more.

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 06:03:54 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Now you are being dumb
Message:
JW:

Nicaragua, Guatemala, Indonesia, Angola, Iraq, Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, El Salvador, Chile, Iran? Weren't these cold war conflicts mostly? Didn't we win that war? If your explanation of the cold war is that Americans simply delegated the dirty work, through apathy and malaise, then just what is your handle on reform? Convince them that they're selfish, venal, insincere people deceived and led by self interested, brutal, and cynical warmongers, living in a dishonored country with no founding ideals worth their aspiration? Yeah, that might work.

I have to believe that if you can't understand the concept that *we* contended and decided, after a BITTER national struggle, that the US was not fighting Evil Incarnate, and should therefore pull out of Vietnam, then I guess your only recourse is to insist that I'm name dropping, arrogant, 'inside my head,' or as a last resort, too dense or impractical to stay on topic. Forgive me for being condescending again, but you *were* alive during the Vietnam era weren't you? Apathy isn't how I remember that time period. You must have been in the backyard. I don't know how you intend to reform such a corrupt population, but I assume you have a plan, right? Double check your diagnosis, though. Looks like the patient may already be dead.

And if your argument is that we're just too apathetic to care about ideals; how does that square with this 'national religion' you were so erudite about? It's a national religion without any conviction, is it? What social or psychological theory does *that* come out of? How does that work? How do people live, die and pay their taxes for that? Tell me. You still think like a premie, Joe. If it's not something you already believe then the messenger must be corrupt.

I spent five years as an Alinsky organizer and fundraiser during the height of the Reagan administration. I have a pretty good idea of what it takes to motivate an apathetic housewife to contribute $50 to an organization that wants to raise her taxes, stop exporting cruise missiles, stop funding for the CIA's secret wars, or just get Grandma's heating bill or medication paid. Ah, but I'm being condescending again. Sorry. I'm sure you have a plan. You're not just enjoying the sensation of being PC.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 20:55:28 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Now you are being dumb
Message:
Of course we 'won' those conflicts, several of which the US population was largely unaware of, and mostly disinterested in. Since we didn't commit ground troops, the 'will' of the people to continue the war, and the need to 'satanize' somebody like Allende, or Sukarno is much less relevent. Or, in the case of Iraq, although Hussein is most definitely demonized, we and the British bomb Iraq almost daily, but we don't commit to a ground war, and didn't invade when we did, because we don't feel enough of a threat. But, likely, if we HAD invaded Cambodia, Laos, Nicaragua, etc, and they ended up in a long guerilla war, we most likely would have lost that one too, because wew wouldn't have stood for the casualties.

I guess you were alive during the Vietnam war era, but you seem to have forgotten about, and wisely do not address the point I made that after the draft ended, and after most of the troops were withdrawn, the protests diminished significantly. And the war continued for years after that, with protests for sure, but much, much less than they had been. Much of the US war protest was fueled by the fact that draftees when to Vietnam. When that ended, the air came out of it. I would think you would remember that. In fact, in 1972 and 1973, Nixon didn't feel any compulsion from any protests to greatly escalate the war, especailly the bombing of North Vietnam, including Hanoi itself, for many months.

I completely disagree that communism, which we claimed to be fighting in Vietnam, was any less evil incarnate to the US people or the US government at the end of the war than it was at the beginning. I think it's ludicrous to suggest that there was not actually MORE bitterness and hatred for both communism in general and the North Vietnamese in particular (portrayed as surogates of the Soviet Union and the Chinese) at the time the US pulled out its troops than when it sent them it. In fact, if anything, I think anti-communism in this country increased in the 70s and early 80s. No, it's very clear that we withdrew from Vietnam because the American people didn't fervently support it anymore, and began to see that it was a quagmire, mess that we couldn't win without unacceptable casualties. And as a result, we lost.

I have no idea what you mean about a 'corrupt population.'

AND please Scott, allow this into your brain once and for all. I DO NOT THINK THERE IS A NATIONAL RELIGION. I SAID THAT WHAT KISSINGER WAS REFERRING TO AND IDEA LIKE THAT, WHICH I REJECT. IF YOU DON'T THINK KISSINGER WAS REFERRING TO THAT FINE, BUT DON'T PIN IT ON ME. JESUS CHRIST MARY AND JOSEPH.

AND WHO SAID THE US POPULATION WAS TOO APATHETIC TO CARE ABOUT IDEALS??? Not me. Are we even in the same planet, Scott. Do you know how to read?

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Date: Fri, May 19, 2000 at 22:41:40 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Dumb is just a box of chocolates.
Message:
Joe:

Or, in the case of Iraq, although Hussein is most definitely demonized, we and the British bomb Iraq almost daily, but we don't commit to a ground war, and didn't invade when we did, because we don't feel enough of a threat.

I will admit that the possibility of a successful air campaign, without ground troops, changes things. Together with the possibility of secret subversion, propaganda, and misinformation, it's another dimension of how things have changed since Clauswitz (WWI).

but you seem to have forgotten about, and wisely do not address the point I made that after the draft ended, and after most of the troops were withdrawn, the protests diminished significantly. And the war continued for years after...

This doesn't seem resolvable. How is this inconsistent with the notion that we had come to be ambivalent about the war? I didn't say it was universally opposed. Read my comments about ISTEA. I don't want to reiterate them.

I completely disagree that communism, which we claimed to be fighting in Vietnam, was any less evil incarnate to the US people or the US government at the end of the war than it was at the beginning. I think it's ludicrous to suggest that there was not actually MORE bitterness and hatred for both communism in general and the North Vietnamese in particular (portrayed as surogates of the Soviet Union and the Chinese) at the time the US pulled out its troops than when it sent them it. In fact, if anything, I think anti-communism in this country increased in the 70s and early 80s.

Careful here Joe, this is easy to check using the General Social Survey or the National Election Study. I would venture to say that anti-communist sentiment *did* decline during that period. What makes you think otherwise? You're saying that anti-communism increased over the period of the Vietnam War? Really?

AND please Scott, allow this into your brain once and for all. I DO NOT THINK THERE IS A NATIONAL RELIGION. I SAID THAT WHAT KISSINGER WAS REFERRING TO AND IDEA LIKE THAT, WHICH I REJECT. IF YOU DON'T THINK KISSINGER WAS REFERRING TO THAT FINE, BUT DON'T PIN IT ON ME. JESUS CHRIST MARY AND JOSEPH.

AND WHO SAID THE US POPULATION WAS TOO APATHETIC TO CARE ABOUT IDEALS??? Not me. Are we even in the same planet, Scott. Do you know how to read?

So, I take it that you are not concerned that Americans might see themselves as having a dispensation to do whatever we want in foreign policy? You're just concerned about Henry, right? Sorry, I didn't understand that.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 15:07:40 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: BAby Bush for Sale--Sheesh...
Message:
For some reason it has proved difficult for the operatives of both parties to consistently understand this country, and it's values. That's probably more a function of partisan politics, and lack of education, than anything else.

How 'bout maybe it's because the 'operatives of both parties' are a bunch of inbred elitists, nepotic, shape shifting reptoids who have little in common with the real people...

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 15:42:47 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: gerry didn't you just describe...............
Message:
Why Maharaji

Who else????

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 22:46:45 (GMT)
From: party dude verbatim words
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: a little of that yeah, will that be coke or pot to
Message:

'Oh I'll have a little more of that,'

Big M growled as the tray started getting away from him. Shit he'd been up since...when? And it's not like he hadn't snorted his head so full of flake it rang like a bell. Cause he had. But not like when those greedy fuckers all leave and he can really get down to business...

''Marilyn get my kit out and get those fucking kids over to the west wing for the next couple of hours.''

Rrrrrrrrring!!! Now that's fuckin' music, baby, Neck vein shot straight to the ole noggin. Best music you'll ever hear.

And that dear premies, is my secret technique divulged only to my closest devotees, those who call themselves 'EX.'

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 01:23:39 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: party dude verbatim words
Subject: I seem to remember a few premies being invited up
Message:
after the Santa monica events. must have been rumours. I never was privvy.
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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 14:08:31 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Revolution
Message:
Hi Scott,

Why do you say the French revolution failed and the American one succeeded?

As far as I know, the French successfully got rid of their aristocracy, set up a Republic, and have been doing fine ever since. Sure they had a few teething problems, but they came out OK in the end.

Whereas the American revolution did nothing for blacks, who were still bought and sold afterwards, and are still living in apartheid in most cities. Not to mention the Native Americans,who, at the time of the revolution weren't even counted as human beings (blacks were counted as one fifth of a human being).

America has, proportionaly, four times the prison population of any other developed country, with disproportionate numbers of ethnic minorities locked up and used as slave labour. (The biggest agricultural employer in Texas is the prison system.)

You have awful social conditions and problems, no comprehensive health care and unemployment benefit. Everyone lives in one type of ghetto or another. Guns abound to the extent that children take them to school and shoot each other, and the most likely form of death for many adults is being shot.

From over here, it looks like you could do with another revolution.

Anth the Champagne Anarchist

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 02:30:17 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Revolution
Message:
Well Anth...we had our chance for peace...but you and all the other bad net people are ruining it for us by calling our saviour M a fraud. Surely, if you could just open your mind a little bit...you'd see M is the one to fix us. I know. I believe and I am currently working with our great state's governor to get the next satellite broadcast to all jails and juvenile institutions (at a discounted institutional rate, no less!!). Have a little faith.
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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 06:36:31 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: I Love The Smell Of Napalm In The Morning
Message:
I was in Laos in January and I thought a lot about the Vietnam war and the Vets. It was difficult to not think of them when the stunning countryside I was admiring, together with the water buffalo on the runways, and the incredibly beautiful Mekong River, was the same landscape I had watched so many times during the war. There are still a fair number of vets (now businessmen) who are over there, who never returned to the States after the war. I was talking to an acquaintance who has lived for quite a while in Thailand, and has traveled extensively in Laos and Vietnam, and she told me that the 'American' war, which, of course, is what they call our Vietnam war, was just a blip on their screen.

I was pretty surprised when I heard this because Vietnam looms so large in our national emotional landscape and affected America on so many levels. What was a watershed for American culture was just a speed bump to the Vietnamese and Lao people (don't know about Cambodia, given the killing fields) because they have been at war for hundreds of years with so many different people trying to usurp their land and sovereignty.

I had forgotten that Kissinger received the Nobel Peace Prize for his role in crimes against humanity. Talk about spin. I would have liked to have seen an article by Robert McNamara.

I particulary like the quote, '[that Vietnam was] a low moment in the American Century, a painful reminder of the limits of power.'

More like a painful reminder of the limits of overpowering if you ask moi.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 17:03:31 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: The Effect on the Vietnamese
Message:
Good points, Monmot. However, I think the seeming lack of effects on the Vietnmese (except the 2 million deaths, the millions of permanently physically and psychologically maimed, the the extensive environmental damage to their country, since the US droped millions of tons of chemicals, including agent orange, also leading to significant ongoing birth defects) is because the majority of the population is under 25 and wasn't around for the war. Also, the Vietnamese won, which makes all the sacrifices somehow seem worth it.
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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 22:13:04 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The Effect on the Vietnamese
Message:
I would never say, and I doubt the Vietnamese would ever say, that they came out unscathed. That they paid a much bigger price than is probably quantifiable goes without question in my mind. I think that they were/are so used to wars on their soil that the American war does not have as much prominence in their collective consciousness as the war does in the American consciousness. The immensity of the horror of what they and their land underwent is probably what surprised me when I was told that the war did not figure as large for them as it figured for us. Other than the American Revolution, America has not had a war on its soil, and I think the American collective psyche is at times fatally naive because of this (not that I want a war on our soil, believe me).
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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 22:47:36 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Well, there was the Civil War.....
Message:
I think that War is also permanently part of the American culture, in that a part of the country feels that it was defeated and has something to prove -- resulting in African Americans taking the brunt of the inferiority complex the South has had ever since.

I think it is amazing that the Vietnamese aren't more bitter. The Vietnamese who really ARE bitter seem to be many of the Vietnamese to emigrated to this country and were part of the South Vietnamese regime. They feel angry and betrayed, much like many Cuban Americans feel.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 23:08:47 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Talk About Amnesia :-))....
Message:
I can't believe I spaced the Civil War...what was I thinking (or not)? Guess I can skip my Thinking Anonymous meeting tonight--I had my daily Zen non-thinking moment. I must've been thinking about wars with other countries (although Southerners would probably argue that they are another country). You're right about the Vietnamese who emigrated to America being the bitter ones. There's been quite a stink around here between some of the South Vietnamese emigres and the North Vietnamese emigres over flying the North Vietnamese flag during the local Vietnamese celebrations (sounds like the brouhaha about the Confederate flag).

I know that the PC attitude is that America is no longer a melting pot, but a salad. Tossed, if you ask me.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 02:39:49 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Talk About Amnesia :-))....
Message:
Apparently, San Jose has a very large Vietnamese emigre population. They have been picketing art galleries that are showing this exhibit that has multiple images of Ho Chi Minh, both in Oakland and Fresno. The news has been covering it, but it is kind of weird. I have to say, though, the YOUNG Vietnamese, the ones' who are born here are very successful and very much a part of the American Dream. I know one family in which there are four sons. The fourth one just graduated from Stanford and all four are doctors. They seem to be doing quite well.
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 03:46:20 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Talk About Amnesia :-))....
Message:
Which makes those statements that immigrants are ruining America seem pretty lame. I think historically most immigrants work extremely hard because they seize the opportunities here that they didn't have in their homelands. I used to joke that the legislators should make Prop 187 (is that the right one?) retroactive two generations. You'd see some serious backpedaling then.
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 19:03:56 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: I Agree
Message:
If it weren't for immigration, Silicon Valley would be in terrible trouble. I notice the Congress has no problem increasing the amount of immigration when it is computer engineers and such. Plus, the economy of California would grind to a hault were it not for immigrants from Mexico and South America. It is truly amazing now Pete Wilson was able to ride those wedge issues into office. The upside is that he has driven Hispanics into registering to vote and voting Democratic, for at least a decade or so. And they are the fastest-growing voting block in the state. I think George W. Bush will be able to thank Pete Wilson (and his props 187 and 209) for his inability to carry this state in the presidential election.
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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 23:45:08 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Vietnam Revisionism -- the Media Again (OT)
Message:
Yeah, I noticed it. CNN did a piece and then interviewed the former Vice-President of South Vietnam. He expressed his regret that the U.S. pulled out and blamed it on Nixon's resignation, without which, he said, there would have been enough U.S. support to continue and win the war.

The coverage on all the networks was equally bad, whitewashing the whole thing. Of course, it's been going on to some extent since the Rambo movies. No one remembers how bad and wrong it was, and people who were too young or not born yet never had a chance to know.

I agree completely about Kissinger, that scum-sucking, low-life monster. And Nixon... do remember his funeral? They did the same thing; rewrote history and made him look like a great man. Yeah, vomit, vomit, vomit.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 04:48:18 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Thanks, Powerman. Glad you noticed....
Message:
Yes, Kissinger is a war criminal. Yeah, it's really such a shame we lost the idea that we are 'exceptional.' Not a very healthy thing to believe anyway, if you ask me. That Kissinger got the Nobel Prize for the Vietnam peace process, after he tried to bomb that country back to the stone age, served a president who lied about the war with great regularity and sacrificed thousands of lives even though he knew we couldn't 'win' is one of the most ironic events in this century. It was painful to watch the knee-jerk flag-waving going on around all this; why is it that America has to believe it is always right?
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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 15:43:11 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Thanks, Powerman. Glad you noticed....
Message:
Part of the reason the U.S. role in the Vietnam War is whitewashed is because an admission of guilt threatens other questionable patriotic and religious beliefs. The protest against the war was a watershed of doubt about so-called American values, so if by 'exceptional' Kissinger meant two cars, two kids, and an obedient wife, maybe he was right. For him the American Dream was a good thing.

Of course, after the war came disco, cocaine, and hippies cutting their hair and getting the jobs they disdained. Kissinger and the other cronies didn't win the war in Vietnam but they won the war at home. Imagine his satisfaction now when he looks around the U.S. and sees well-dressed androids doing the bidding for those exceptional values he once saw threatened. For the moment, I'm afraid to say, he's won.

From the perspective of a young kid in the sixties and seventies, the cultural upheaval looked like it was going to last forever. But I imagine for someone like Kissinger who had more knowledge and experience with the foibles of humanity, he knew there was no way these radical kids could keep it up for long. Maybe he knew they'd have children or that their bones would get stiffer as time went on, and they'd become more interested in security than passion.

After the war was won at home and people were more interested in driving a flashy SUV than social issues, the groundwork was laid for rewriting all sorts of history.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 09:37:51 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: JW
Subject: Kissinger's rough ride with Paxman
Message:
Interesting thread, JW and everyone. Monmot's saying: 'I had forgotten that Kissinger received the Nobel Peace Prize for his role in crimes against humanity. Talk about spin. I would have liked to have seen an article by Robert McNamara.' reminded me of an incident on BBC Radio 4's 'Start the Week' programme a few months ago.

The programme is hosted by Jeremy Paxman who, obviously unknown to Mr Kiss-my-assinger, is the BBC's most notoriously tough political interviewer. (He did the previous government enormous damage by asking the then Home Secretary the same question seventeen times, because he was trying to avoid answering it..) Anyway, there was Kissinger, obviously expecting nothing more than a ten-minute book-plugging opportunity, when Paxo asked him outright: 'Mr Kissinger, do you feel like a hypocrite being awarded the Nobel Peace Prize after your role in the Vietnam war?'

After a couple of minutes of questioning in a similar vein, HK stormed out of the studio. (Paxman gave a similar grilling to former SA president de Klerk a few week before that!)

You'd have loved it.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 22:23:38 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Paxman.....Great name
Message:
Kissinger was shunned by all his Harvard colleagues after the carpet bombing (just love these euphemisms, a la collateral damage) of Cambodia. He has to believe his lies or else his life is a one big lie.

Is Paxman his real name? If so, it's very apt.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 17:31:27 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy'liverpool.ac.uk
To: Nigel
Subject: That interview in full...
Message:
...even better than I remembered it.

(From the Guardian)

>
'Did you feel a fraud?'

Tuesday June 29, 1999

The exchanges in full:

Jeremy Paxman: 'It's been 17 years
since the last volume of your memoirs.
You said you wanted to let the dust settle
but [didn't you] need the distance in order
to rewrite history?'

Dr Kissinger: 'No I based these memoirs
on documents which were as valid then as
they are now.'

Paxman: [describes Kissinger's claim
that he ended the cold war as
'farfetched'] 'What bothers a lot of people
is you seem to ignore the human rights of
people within regimes with which you're
trying to establish a balance of power.'

Kissinger: 'That's not correct either.'

Paxman: question about supporting
General Pinochet and undermining
President Allende in Chile.

Kissinger: 'We did not support Pinochet.
In what way did we support Pinochet?'

Paxman: 'You supported the military
regime.'

Kissinger: 'After the coup we preferred
Pinochet to Allende.'

Paxman: 'It doesn't stop there... You're
on record justifying the [behaviour of the]
Chinese government in Tiananmen
Square.'

Kissinger:... 'I have never supported what
the Chinese did in Tiananmen Square.'

Paxman: 'Did you feel a fraud for
accepting the Nobel Prize [for the
Indo-China agreement]?'

Kissinger: 'I wonder what you do when
you do a hostile interview?'

Paxman: [accuses Kissinger of a 'wilful
misreading of history']

Kissinger: 'It may be a misreading but it
wasn't wilful.'

Paxman: question about the 'hundreds of
thousands of people killed in the bombing
of Cambodia'.

Kissinger: 'That's absolutely untrue. We
have no evidence that hundreds of
thousands of people were killed... I think
this is an absolute outrage, it's
nonsense.'

Paxman: 'You don't deny [the bombing
of Cambodia] was secret though?... This
was a secret operation against a neutral
country...'

Kissinger: 'Come on now, Mr Paxman,
this was 15 years ago, and you at least
have the ability to educate yourself about
a lie on your own programme... '

Paxman: 'What's factually inaccurate?'

Kissinger: '... That's outrageous... '

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 21:08:00 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: What is the name of Paxman's show????
Message:
I wonder if you can get it in the states. Some NPR radio stations carry the World Service of the BBC, but other programs are quite hit or miss.
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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 21:24:56 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: JW
Subject: It's now on the net...
Message:
I think BBC Radio 4 is now available live via the internet if you have suitable sound technology. I don't know the link but it can't be hard to find.

'Start the Week' (not always political - it is often science, arts etc.) is on every Monday morning - our time - at 9.00 am.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 19:20:39 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: That interview ...
Message:
Good find there, Nigel

Just shows how 'correct thinking' in politics can be even MORE vile than cultist dogma, especially when peoples' lives are at stake (and often lost).

Can you imagine the Maha and Paxman over a table?

I'd like to see that.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 17:27:38 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Yes, I would have loved that....
Message:
And anything would have been better than watching that unctious Jim Lehrer lop softballs to Kissinger on PBS.

By the way, in what must have been a serious lapse in mental functioning, Madeline Albright spoke at the commmencement exercises at UC Berkeley last week. I listened to it on the radio. She got shouted down. Well, actually, she continued to speak with background noise that sounded like a BART Train driving though the audience.

I think the most notorious statement of that little war monger is when she told Diane Sawyer on 60 Minutes that the 500,000 (at that time) deaths of Iranian children due to the US-lead embargo was 'worth it,' despite the fact that it seems to have had zero effect on bringing down Saddam Hussein. Yes, those children should be punished for having the audacity to live in Iran under a brutal leader.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 17:46:18 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: JW
Subject: Yuk...
Message:
Not of the same scale of offensiveness, maybe, but that 'worth it' statement reminds me of when in the eighties the Tory Chancellor, Norman Lamont stated that high unemployment was 'a price well worth paying' to keep the economy in good working order. Makes you wonder whose interests politics is supposed to serve, if not human beings, eh?
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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 22:19:15 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Yuk...
Message:
That 'worth it' statement is proof of America's 'exceptionalism.' Keeerist.
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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 17:31:06 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Sorry, that's Iraq, NOT Iran -- correction.
Message:
Correction, that's 'IRAQI children' and 'IRAQ', not 'Iran.'
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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 21:40:18 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Software Upgrade
Message:
I just finished upgrading the software to what it should have been during my last ill-fated attempt in December. Hopefully, I got it right this time. Forum posts were backed up beforehand, and I have a copy of the pre-upgrade posts on my computer just in case.

Email me (brian@ex-premie.org) if you see any problems with the behavior of the Forum.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 07:43:06 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Software Upgrade: how many coffee pots?
Message:
Brian you should go out a bit more! Remember that walk by the lake? Maybe some camping during the weekends, I'm sure Katie will love it!!

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 13:14:27 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: 10 pots of coffee and a carton of cigarettes (ot)
Message:
And if you think I can talk Brian into going camping, you are dreaming! I might try and start with a walk around the block once in the while. Maybe we could even walk to the grocery store!

Take care, J-M -
Love,
Katie

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 14:09:24 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: talkings@mason.gmu.edu
To: Katie
Subject: 10 pots of coffee and a carton of cigarettes (ot)
Message:
Katie:

I have an alternative obsession that he might like to try. Speaking of which, I'm thinking about doing a long gruelling bike ride in the Blacksburg area the last weekend in May. Will you guys be around? Try the email address above. The others don't seem to be working, possibly because of the storm or possibly because Comcast @Home is a shitty ISP.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 15:02:16 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Scott T.
Subject: Pedal me back to Ol' Virginny
Message:
I'm thinking about doing a long gruelling bike ride in the Blacksburg area the last weekend in May. Will you guys be around?

Katie will be. Email her to get together. I'll be in England for the European Strategy Meeting. I'm still trying to find someone to host the Stink Bomb seminar...

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 12:44:51 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Mountains of misery and beans.
Message:
Brian:

This sounds like more intrigue than I need. There's a rather longish section in Alinsky's 'Rules for Radicals' about a tactic that uses human stink bombs loaded with large quantities of beans. It is both environmentally friendly and nutritious.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 16:44:51 (GMT)
From: Super Brat
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Pedal me back to Ol' Virginny
Message:
Well, you can do it here again!

Coffe.

SB

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:40:57 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: embarrassment contest
Message:
Okay, undoubtedly the 'Biggest Cult Fools' award goes to the deceased members of Jim Jones' cult. But how about second place?

I nominate the Moonies as second and Premies as third... I mean for coming off as total wankers. I really do feel embarrassed when I tell someone I used to be a premie; it was worse when I was still a premie because more people knew just how stupid it was.

I know the excuses about how we were so innocent but there were people who saw right through the fat guru fuck and knew he was a fraud, without the benefit of seeing maharaji's claims fall flat on their face.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 17:00:53 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: You'll have to make it more than three...
Message:
What about the Church of God (COG, the Family) with David Berg aka Moses David...flirty fishing...sex and Jesus...

And then there's Charles Manson's family. I remember one of his followers on a talk show, describing a time when he was on LSD and Manson was strangling him and the guy couldn't breathe and he finally gave up and just at that moment, when his esophagus relaxed, Manson relaxed his grip and said, 'Now you know.'

Jeez, don't you wish you could have gotten some hands-on spiritual intruction like that from our distant guru-on-a-throne?

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:59:52 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: What about Heaven's Gate??
Message:
Members first had themselves castrated and then committed suicide, while wearing Nike shoes, apparently because the Nike 'swoosh' was some kind of cosmic sign. I think they should go to the top of your list, despite the relatively small size of that cult.

Other than the mass marriages, and Moon's looney right-wing politics, I don't think Moonies were any weirder than premies. And as we know, Maharaji has now morphed into the identical twin of Mr. Moon, himself.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 20:11:26 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: What about Heaven's Gate??
Message:
How could I forget Heaven's Gate? Jesus, those people took the cake, but you have to admit they were original. They went out and got pizza before they offed themselves, and they even packed all their belongings in suitcases, making for an easy cleanup. Not to forget they were catching a ride on that comet (can't remember the name of it). And they had a web design business and people said they liked them when they met them.

I had the pleasure of being a tenant of a Moonie couple about ten years ago. They'd been married in one of those stadiums where Moon arranged the whole thing. Apparrently one of Moon's teachings is not to discipline children in any way. Their daughter ran total roughshod over everything in sight and they just sat their and smiled. It really annoyed me.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:53:41 (GMT)
From: EV-ex
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: embarrassment contest
Message:
Powerman,

What about Heaven's Gate?

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 20:17:26 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: EV-ex
Subject: My mistake-Heaven's Gate is tops NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 21:52:58 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: By coincidence...
Message:
What is generally considered the most embarassing movie ever made is also called 'Heaven's Gate.' (Of course few in Hollywood have seen 'Lord of the Universe').

Other embarassments in cults recently: the relatively minor New-Age guru Fred Lenz died in 1998 or 99 after taking 150 sleeping pills and jumping off the dock at his luxury seaside estate worth millions. And: the fall of Swami Kriyananda (aka Donald Walters) of Ananda Community, fined a million dollars a couple years back when he was found guilty of sexual abuse of several woman followers. When you research these gurus, you find that most of them meet their ends quite badly.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 20:22:02 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: The Tuggies in India: 1 million murders
Message:
- maybe not crazy enough to commit suicide: but responsible for mor than 1 million ritual murders during the 19th century.
I think they take the prize of being the craziest cult ever. If we don't count only modern cults.
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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 23:12:51 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: God, Murders by Disposable Diapers -- what next!?!
Message:
nt ::))
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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 02:02:16 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Usually translated as Thugs
Message:
and you've heard the term no doubt. Yoga and Raja both become Yog and Raj according to dialect, so the vowel is probably dropped in parts of India as well as in the West.

The AMA or similar body of doctors had to stop using human skeletons when they were traced to mass murder in India, probably Thug related. Medical skeleton models are always made of plastic now.

There also is something of a black market in human organs, although I don't think the numbers are as large. Chinese prisons traffic in organs too. Human life is devalued where there is too much of it- and that's part of the mentality that Rawatt has come to the West to reveal!

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 13:22:20 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Usually translated as Thugs
Message:
yes, my spelling mistake. Usually Thugs, or Thuggees.

But if we consider modern cults, I think Aum Shinrikyo, Sai Baba (many murders, pedophilia, etc) and Scientology all beat the moonies and ISKCON in crazyness and dangerousness. This is all opinions, of course.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 22:56:09 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: The ISKCON 11
Message:
There was that one Hare Krishna guru (of 11 that Pabhrupada left behind him) who was doing all the altar boys while murdering off his detractors. He built a huge and beautiful temple with all kinds of gold leaf, inside and out. The grounds were littered with unmarked graves.

The Krishna gurus were totally overwhelmed by their 'good fortune' with several of them turning to all kinds of crime and excesses. This included several organised crime rackets (selling stolen goods in Japan which were stolen by devotees), fraudulent charities (claiming money went to various acceptable causes which went to their own upkeep), and huge excesses of sex and drugs. There was violence and murder associated with several of them, not just the W. Virginia temple.

Pity, they were fun to visit while we were premies. When I first went in the early 70's, they were charmed by my minor knowledge of Vedanta and would feed me better or give me under-the-counter books (instead of whichever one was mass-produced for giveaways). As a starving premie, it was great to get fed mass quantities of vegetarian food. Years later, returning out of nostalgia as an ex, they were stingy and the food was dirty. After some inquiry, I find there had been murders indirectly associated with even the local temple.

So much for creating a spiritual groundwork for life.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 00:04:46 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: The ISKCON 11--Reading Matter
Message:
There's a book, now out of print, which goes into the murders in the Krishna cult:

Monkey on a Stick: Murder, Madness, and the Hare Krishnas
by John Hubner, Lindsay Gruson

An interesting read.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 22:13:11 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: The cult that couldn't hide
Message:
All the above cults are definetely waaaaay out there but in terms of embarassment, my vote must go to the Hare Krishna....I really feel sympathy for the parents of those idiots....I mean what must their friends have thought about sonny boy in that costume!!!
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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 22:35:53 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Angry
Subject: The cult that couldn't hide
Message:
Jeeze...coffee out the nose, all over the keyboard...
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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:08:54 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Latvian band come third
Message:
The wonderfully named Latvian pop ensemble 'Brainstorm' romped into third place in this years Eurovision song contest in Stockholm. British ace reporter Mike Ward reports in Monday's 'Daily Star', 'Tears, tantrums, voting, and even a woman dressed as a giant humbug, Eurovision 2000 had it all. Except, of course, for a British victory. Nicki French's disappointing 16th position - OK, not so much disappointing as downright embarrassing - was the worst in UK result history. Afterwards, I walked around pretending to be a Latvian.' Tres chic.

Coach

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:21:52 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Coach
Subject: Sorry, Latvians sucked!
Message:
Coach, I watched the Eurovision thing for the first time in my life (being an American, we don't get this in the states), and I thought the Irish should have won. The Latvians were cheesy to the highest degrees. The Irish, on the other hand, were very classy and had a nice song about the Millennium, something near and dear to all of our ex-premie hearts.

The whole thing was a good laugh.

How are you doing these days?

Love, Marianne

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 20:23:15 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Sorry, Latvians sucked!
Message:
yes the song sucked, and the singer - but their beer doesn't.
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 17:27:32 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Sorry, Latvians sucked!
Message:
I thought the song was quite good, and I have seen the band perform live, as well as listened to their CDs many times at the Latvian Club.

I thought the funniest moment is when Russia had given Latvia one point, Latvia responded by giving Russia none!

Regarding Latvian beer - where have you sampled this, Happy?

John.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 18:12:36 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: JHB
Message:
Dear John,
Well how the heck are you!? Settling in nicely I hope. Nice to see you here. Will you still be in the Latvian beer business? Good luck and happiness in your new home.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 13:29:43 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Sorry, Latvians sucked!
Message:
Dear Happy,
JHB will be heartened to hear what you said here. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 16:14:09 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Read this!!!! EV's scared of me!!!!!! Too funny!!!
Message:
Here's what one of my spies sent me some time ago. He informed me that

Linda Gross was coming to the Miami events to back-up spokesperson Andrea Robbins, BECAUSE YOU WERE ON THE EAST COAST FOR STRATEGY MEETINGS WITH EX-PREMIE LEADERS IN THE U.S., AND YOU MIGHT SHOW UP AT ONE OF THE EAST COAST EVENTS WHILE YOU WERE HERE!!

This really is too funny.

Think of the incredible 'participation' opportunities for premie security, ushering and others that are being created!

Hahahahahaha. ROFDL!!!!!!!

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 02:26:09 (GMT)
From: G willikers
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Gosh, I didn't realise
Message:
Gosh, I didn't realise that our little get together was a 'strategy' meeting or that we are 'leaders'.
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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 22:56:04 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: This really is hysterical
Message:
First of all, if I sent them a really nice letter, do you think that they would let us know who our leaders are? I would like to know.

Secondly, this paranoia is so telling. They just simply cannot imagine life in a context different than how they themselves live it. I know this syndrome well, as for years after I left the cult, it was hard for me to conceptualize that most organizations are not like cults. They cannot see the obvious, that we are exactly what we seem to be.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 15:11:55 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Teeth Alert! Any garbage? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 12:48:40 (GMT)
From: Sir David BF and Bar
Email: vpost3@hotmail.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Read this!!!! EV's scared of me!!!!!! Too funny!!!
Message:
'EX-PREMIE LEADERS'

That has a nice ring to it. Hey you guys, you're LEADERS. Not just disenchanted yobs who want to let off stink bombs at Maharaji's programs but you have been elevated to positions of great prominence and authority!

You may not know this but my full title is Major Sir David Burrows-Under and I am head of the chemical weapons unit here at Salisbury. We have tested our new stink bomb on Salisbury Plain and are more than satisfied with the results. We expect several large orders from the US in the coming weeks...

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 07:57:32 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Read this!!!! EV's scared of me!!!!!! Too funny!!!
Message:
Hi Jean-Michel,

They don't know about our permanently staffed office of agitators in Paris yet do they?

And for gods sake don't tell them about the international programme disruption seminars we're running at the Paris Hilton next month.

Anth the Champagne Anarchist

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 22:21:18 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: In the land of paranoia...
Message:
all dissension must be squelched! Little did I knew when you were cutting my guinea pig's toenails that you are an internationally wanted criminal!!
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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 16:28:30 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Smacks of the bugging of the London DLM HQ
Message:
Same paranoia surrounding a pointless 'organization'. Gives em something to do, I guess.

Probably time that we implimented Operation Robyn's Teeth, eh? That will knock them for a loop!! Let's do it!!!

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 16:19:45 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I knew this would happen!
Message:
You're a dangerous man, Jean-Michel! I'm surprised we don't have undercover agents sitting outside of Ex-Premie.Org headquarters (snicker) right now!

Do you think that EV ever figured out what the code word 'teeth' meant?

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 14:00:13 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Katie, did you check your new neighbours?
Message:
I'm sure EV's done something to watch you guys in the mountains. I'm going to send my spies investigating this ....

Watch your backdoor, change your passwords, and keep training your rottweilers .... Hahahaha

Look what's going on in your parking lot!

Love

Jean-Michel

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 14:37:01 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: EV is welcome to stop by here...
Message:
... no need to hang out in the parking lot or the back yard. Judging from your latest post, it sounds like they need a vacation, anyway. But I should warn them not to bring any pictures of M - my attack cats don't like them :).
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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 17:35:33 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I knew this would happen!
Message:
Do you think that EV ever figured out what the code word 'teeth' meant?

You know what ? I haven't received my 'hat' yet ....

I wonder what they're going to imagine ...

Do you think they've understood anything about the BBQs? I wonder ..... And what about your 'Ezra Brooks' ?

hahahahaha

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 17:31:52 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Why don't they realize that . . . .
Message:
if the cult were on the up and up, the paranoia would not be necessary. I cannot believe that I consciously lied about cult junk to new people.

These folks should be scared of you JM--you tell the truth!!

PS. Sorry I missed your visit. Next time!

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:04:32 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Gail, can you imagine...
Message:
...the increased level of paranoia if YOU and Jean-Michel had gotten together?! You're obviously considered to be a dangerous woman :).

BTW, good to hear from you!

Love,
Katie

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 18:38:57 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Jean Michel
Subject: Ex-premie leaders? hahahahahaha
Message:
Yes, we now have EX-PREMIE LEADERS! They forgot to mention our all important London and Paris organizing meetings! Next time, there will be toe kissing of the ex-premie leaders by all of the followers.

Paranoia does reign supreme.

This news gave me a great laugh.

Keep up the good work, J-M!

Love, Marianne

PS. I'm on a plane back to San Francisco tomorrow, the 16th. I might be back to teach again next year though.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 07:32:57 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Ex-premie leaders will need lawyers !!!!! haha
Message:
Great you'll come back over here, I might need you when Interpol will be after me !!!!!!

Hahaahaha ....

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 01:36:14 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Ex-premie leaders will need lawyers !!!!! haha
Message:
Leaders? Do they think this group is 'organized' or something. That is so funny. We can't even organize a get together--well, some of you can, I guess.
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 12:42:08 (GMT)
From: zelda
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Ex-premie leaders will need lawyers !!!!! haha
Message:
Talk about disorganized. This crew here is about as disorganized as they come. Many on their own mission - might as well start their own cult.
One common goal though- to one by one erode premie and aspirants capacity to 'leave no room for doubt'

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 14:34:03 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: zelda
Subject: Hey, small is beautiful!
Message:
Hi Zelda -
(BTW, loved the story about the Metropolitan Cappuchino Brigade - way to go!)

I think it works better if things don't get TOO organized. After all, EV worked a lot better when they didn't control every word and action of the premies. I think everyone here should feel free to put up websites of their own (see Sir David's sites, and House of Drek for examples), call reporters, write to people about this site or others, etc. There really are NO leaders here, and I think that's better - all the ex-premies are members of ex-premie.org.

BTW, ex-premie.org is NOT copywrited - any materials from the site can be used to help other people (although a link back to the site would be nice!)

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 15:32:59 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Well said Katie (nt)
Message:
well said Katie!
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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:14:44 (GMT)
From: Leitenant Zelda
Email: None
To: Jeand Michael
Subject: Freelance Metropolitan Syndicate want recognition.
Message:
Official notice:

The United Metropolan Freelance Cuppachino Drinking and Premie Infiltration and Sometimes Going to Programs With Random Seating Syndicate

Wishes to notify ex Premei Leader Jean Michael that The United Metropolan Freelance Cuppachino Drinking and Premie Infiltration and Sometimes Going to Programs With Random Seating Syndicate chapter 72 wishes to apply for unofficial official recognition.
Please advise
Over

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 20:18:00 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Strategy meetings.
Message:
Hail Yeah, oh ex-premie leader,

what a laugh! it shows that they are scared. I'd like to join your 'strategy meetings', too, especially those with Latvian beer and good vodka...

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 07:35:36 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Strategy meetings, welcome !!!
Message:
We'll have one very soon here, can't give details for the moment, I've just received new plans and blueprints from my contacts in UK and US, can't say more, top secret!!!
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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 13:23:26 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Strategy meetings, welcome !!!
Message:
Thanks! Keep me informed.
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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 14:47:14 (GMT)
From: thin mann
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Anand Band
Message:
I got an old e.p record by Anand Band made in U.K in 1972 with some songs on and maharaj ji speaking,the cover has four pages,and a lot of pictures. are there someone who want to own it ,and what will you give ?
Ihave been reading the white pages four about five months now and it has been really nice , to se that i was not the only. one who was pissed of with, the divine madness. I dont write so much,beacause of my bad english and bad typewriting.
One thing i wonder about is meditation i know that a lot of you dont like meditation at all and think it is no good In my experience it has never been better since i got maharaj ji out of my head and system
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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:34:02 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: thin mann
Subject: meditation
Message:
Hi, thin man. Some of us still like meditation. Some of us still practice the Hindu techniques Divine Light Mission taught us; some of us practice techniques from other traditions. And some here are atheists; some have joined religions like Christianity, though ex-premie Christians probably find this site sacreligious...I don't see many of them here.
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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 17:45:19 (GMT)
From: thin mann
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: meditation
Message:
Hi Greeg.I still like meditation and after 25 years with trying to get it to fit ,with things like master,god freedom love and you name it ,it is such a realief not putting it togheter in any religions terms.not beliving that it comes from any person or any god at all....perhaps the experience of meditation is only a fysical thing? Now i think this couldt be just as true as any other story that all the religions comes up whit
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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 12:21:02 (GMT)
From: SamTheFrog
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Off-subject/Q to Selene
Message:
Why are you runnign your Apache server?. I am intrigued. Do you have a website on it or what?.

Its an interesting way of surfing the net. Would be interested to know, what info gets to your ISP and what info remains on your server.

I guess an URL request would go to your server, then to your ISP and then to a proxy if you are using one, and then to the final destination...Your ISP would still have alot of info, but not as much as if you go direct from a Browser Client.

In answer to your question about Proxies, not all Proxies are anon, some are transparent and pass through your IP address....some dont...before you use a proxy, you have to test it with the URL I gave you...

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 19:35:02 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: SamTheFrog
Subject: running several servers actually
Message:
One for test, some for work, and another for fun.
I think the 'fun' one is going to ISP first, which is the problem with the masking as far as getting total privacy.
If the ISP's IP is showing in my access logs, I'm assuming it would show in anyone else's web server logs as well.
Why do I care? no reason really. Just got on a binge about it and got interested. And started reading all the privacy issues and what your browser info tells about you.
It's amazing isn't it? thanks for responding!!
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 15:50:09 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: running several servers actually
Message:
hey selene?
is it me or did an FA move that thread we were communicating on,
over to inactive thread out of it's actual sequence)? The 'Build prisons...etc'
a.k.a. 'Gibberish' (by Brian). Which was posted @ around '1:00 Sunday' (according
to expremie time that is).

just curious....
not surpised

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 16:20:32 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: raina what am I going to do with you? :)
Message:
it went inactive all by itself. due to posts that were posted up top pushing stuff down. now, someone could have called someone and told them to post, all deliberately in an attempt to MAKE our ability to converse in that thread impossible. now before you think I am being mean or serious just stop because I am joking with you!!
I did intend to start a thread and talk to you when I woke up if I didn't hear from you. Mainly just to tall you I didn't get your cecil thing because I didn't read the SB and Michael Moore stuff. I have skipped a lot of posts here lately. Just on a whim.. i'd go back and read them now but the ephedra hasn't kicked in yet!
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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 18:27:34 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: raina what am I going to do with you? :)
Message:
the times are hard to follow i guess....

???
i don't care...just watching....keeping an eye on the yuck

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 19:01:52 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: and speaking of
Message:
why does this anonymous poster want to know about my servers anyway? as if I am going to come on here and give all the addresses and all of what I am doing with each.
might have when I first came here, but this place has taught me a lot more than the guru ever did!
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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 23:01:07 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ps to SamTheFrog
Subject: going to ISP after A4 as well perhaps?
Message:
that is what is confusing me.
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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 23:25:44 (GMT)
From: and yet another PS!
Email: None
To: had to do this
Subject: only a geek would laugh at this
Message:
This guy even gives out tee shirts! He sounds so familiar.
Someone at work asked me to listen to this tutorial.
I have been cracking up for 15 minutes!! He sounds like M
'come undone'

http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/webcasts/raghavan2.html

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 12:19:54 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: not given
To: Everyone
Subject: Taking A Poll on Mili
Message:
How many people here think Mili is an annoying Idiot?
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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 14:16:48 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: DeProGram Anand Ji
Subject: Taking A Poll on Mili
Message:
Gee, I'll have to think about this one for awhile. (Not!)
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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 15:46:57 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Taking A Poll on Mili
Message:
Mili is a positive guy who is interested in the larger issues of life. I like him.

It's difficult to always be polite on this site, so I understand his occasional ungentlemanly conduct.

-- Dogg

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 03:30:08 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Taking A Poll on Manners
Message:
Yes, it appears it IS difficult for you to always be polite on this site. You were rude to me in the thread above.
VP
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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 16:05:50 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Dear DD
Message:
DD,

It's not politeness that concerns me about you guys. It's the fact that you run away and never follow through, and you never explain your own positions concerning Mr. Rawat in an understandable fashion. Poor Mr. Rawat has never had one effective apologist for his side here. Mr. Dettmers is by far the best yet, but even he has the same annoying quality of disappearing before the issue at hand is adequately discussed. And I think there is a whole lot of stuff he is interested in never ever discussing.

As for you, DD, I believe last we met, we were coming to the conclusion that you were actually closer to being an ex-premie than you are to being a premie. On my scale from 1 to 10 (1=ex, 10=perfect premie), I put you as a 3, (same as Mel). Course I could be wrong.

Now there is some hope that Elaine B might some day make her case for Knowledge and Mr. Rawat, but I don't think she is even a 3.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 20:09:25 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Dear DD
Message:
As for you, DD, I believe last we met, we were coming to the conclusion that you were actually closer to being an ex-premie than you are to being a premie.
----------------------------------
Way,

As far me ever being an ex-premie goes, don't hold your breath.

-- Dogg

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 22:00:44 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Dear DD
Message:
DD,

I'm not holding my breath, and I'm also not imagining Mr. Rawat swinging me on a swing as my breath goes in and out? Are you?

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 03:03:53 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Dear Way
Message:
Way,

Interesting concept, Mr. Rawat pushing me on swing. Sounds like an early 70's concept. I think I missed that satsang. When did you leave Maharaji? Probably in the late 70's or early 80's, I predict.

The perfect premie you mentioned in your first post to me doesn't exist anymore. It's different being a premie now. We don't sing arti any more or do pranam. The experience of Knowledge is the same though.

On the first page of ex-premie.org it says that exes have broken the jar of devotion and have escaped with the jewel of Knowledge, the monkey trap analogy. Well I broke the jar of devotion and chose to hang around.

In John 4:24, it says that 'God is a spirit, and those who worship Him worship in spirit and in truth.' That's where I'm at Way. Word on a wing.

-- Dogg

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 14:46:05 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re:Dear Way
Message:
Dep Dog,

Thanks for your response. But I have to take issue with just about everything you say.

First, I do agree with you that for the most part, the 'perfect premie' doesn't exist much anymore, because the level of participation of the 70's is not available, and hardly any premie would want it to be. But using my scale of 1 to 10, the truth of the matter is that there are still 10's out there. I know a few. And a few of them post over at ELK.

Secondly, I am wondering if you were around during the 70's and early 80's. It would help me understand your position. But the swing analogy for Holy Name technique is recent. As Angry points out below, Rawat conducted Knowledge reviews just a couple years ago in which he described the best way to do the breath technique is to imagine the master swinging you on a swing. He got the idea from a Kabir poem. In Kabir, it makes some devotional and poetic sense, but the thought of premies actually using a visualization of little Mr. Rawat pushing them on a swing as they concentrate on their breath going in and out is a mockery of both devotion to the Higher Power and the legitimate technique of following one's breath to quiet the mind. Rawat is absurd! This latest teaching of his is actually revolting to me. You evidently lucked out and did not attend a Knowledge review that year.

You were also wrong about when I left Maharaji, not that it matters. The last program I attended was the Chicago program in 1997 which coincided with Princess Di's visit to Chicago. So, fairly recently. I lived in the ashram from 75-81.

My point earlier to you was that I see you as being a 3, very close to the ex-premie point of view, which is non-devotional to Rawat. You have said before, and you say again, that you have left devotion behind, and worship in spirit and in truth. Well, I see no reason to argue with that point and am willing to accept that you have your own inner connection. But if you honor truth, both within and without, I do think you need to discern more carefully what is the reality about Mr. Rawat. I can't say anything further because you remain very vague in what you post here, for instance 'I chose to stick around.' What does that mean? Stick around here? Stick with the four techniques? Stick around satellite feeds? Stick around Rawat's personal appearances. Just curious, have you attended any of the current North American tour so far or do you plan to attend one of the June events?

As for arti, I personally find it as worthy a scripture as the Gospel of St. John. And it's probably just as old. The only caveat is don't sing it to a finite human being, for God's sake.

In any event, my best wishes are with you.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 06:15:55 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re:Dear Way
Message:
'As for arti, I personally find it as worthy a scripture as the Gospel of St. John. And it's probably just as old'

According to The Ramayana(by Valmiki), Arti is the oldest devotee of god.

Regards Jethro

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 15:46:14 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: You have to know Dog was always marginal
Message:
Way,

I know who Dog really is. We were premies together back in one of the Canadian communities I lived in in the mid-seventies. Dog was one of the guys who tried to turn our whole community on to some ridiculous peripheral trips like, believe it or not, Dale Carnagie's hokey proto-Tony Robbins course, How to Win Friends and Influence People. Or then there was the time that he and his housemates tried to turn everyone on to Macrobiotics. A lot of the other community premies got into both of these trips, again -- believe it or not, and there was one point when the satsang hall would look like a group therapy session for self-destructive obsessives, what with the back of everyone's hands being pocked with Macrobiotic burn marks (what was that stuff called? You know, where you burn yourself with a cigarette or some holy coal kind of thing, to liberate your <>chi? Mistubishi? Something like that.)

Then there was the premie disco scene that I'm sure Dog went for to to some extent.

And why? Because even then these guys didn't buy the 'Satsang, Service and Meditation' module. Their time was their own. Dog was a poker-faced, sit-in-the-back-of-the-hall kind of guy. Can't recall him ever giving satsang. If he did it was certainly never interesting, exciting or effusive. No prostestations of love or devotion. Why? Dog wasn't there. He didn't really trust the trip that much.

In fact, talk about a 'loner'! Dog was just this kind of taciturn guy in the back of the hall. Lived in a premie house but didn't relaly put out. He was a 'three' even back then. He's never been otherwise.

I'm not even sure if he can understand this at all. Like Mili, he's been living with this superficial junk spirituality so long he cant' see himself. An identity's been forged, as they say.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 02:39:08 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yeah I remember the 70's
Message:
Ah yes, I remember Jim in the 70's.

I could have listened to Jim sing, play, and give satsang all night, and there were many evenings when I thought I was going to.

-- Dogg

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 14:05:01 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: okay Jim, gotta admit the Dog was pretty funny
Message:
with that zinger.

Food trips and trips of all kinds were pretty popular where I lived too. Little branching off things like macroneurotics, mitsubuxtion, asshole channeling and all. Some of our clearer ashram type premies, community coordinator types had good sniffers ( as I am sure you do Dog, being a Dog and all ) for this stuff and would set about Miami ( this is pre Miami becoming residence/Deca mecca ) snuffing out these little explosion of competitive weirdness among the premies. Looking back now it is hilarious. You can only have THIS set of beliefs, the TRUE beliefs. This in reality is you can, get up at 6:00 AM sing to a giant photo of a teenager that he (HE) is you mom, dad, vishna, shiva, and has a boat called the Holy Name, etc... then sit under a sheet for an hour. Eat vegetarian. Converts your acquiantances, alienate your bio family and be true to your TRUE family, you know the drill. But eat a diet of brown rice? Burn your toes with herbs? That would be hilariously WIERD!

Obviously, in retrospect, there is a little projection going on here, as it was ALL weird. But if I wrote a movie, I would include the premie police going about in their dodge darts trying to help the confused masses from believing in every '70s trip but the guru's.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 03:10:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Funny ... but typically off the point
Message:
Dog,

Oh yeah! Embarrassing for sure. No question about it, Dog, I was a loudmouth devotee. A zealot, a fanatic, take your pick. No argument there.

But you, Dog, you were just a marginal cultie, weren't you? Come on, man, admit it! You never really trusted Maharaji, you never gave dick and now you can pretend along with him that he never asked for much. Be honest about this.

See, the thing about that stupid Dale Caneige shit is that it shows how undevoted you guys really were. 'Good premies' understood that our time wasn't our own. We were Maharaji's creatures and every last breath was his too. He was our guide, we needed no other. The thought of turning to someone like Dale Carnegie was a big joke for those of us who were really trying to follow Maharaji. Can you stay on topic and discuss this or are you just going to sink to Mili's level?

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 03:48:11 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Funny ... and typically on the point
Message:
Jim,

I pushed the Dale Carnegie course to help my fellow premies function better in the world and to improve our public speaking and therefore satsang skills. Go to a Perfect Master to learn perfection and go to a public speaking master to learn public speaking.

I pushed macrobiotics because premies became vegetarian with a vengeance and many were becoming ill, i.e. too yin. To become a vegatarian you don't just take the meat off your plate and chow down a huge sugar dessert. I was concerned about the health of my friends and was trying to contribute stuff I'd learned.

You described me in the post directly above as 'poker faced, with no love, taciturn, and superficial.' I beg to differ. I did and still care.

I see myself as dependable, reliable, practical, and I enjoy doing good deeds to help others. So what if I'm not a particularly emotionally warm person. I do what I can. People are different. We express ourselves differently.

And for the record, I understand your points of view more than you think. I just don't share them.

-- Dogg

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Date: Thurs, May 18, 2000 at 06:49:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Hey, you can't do that!
Message:
You described me in the post directly above as 'poker faced, with no love, taciturn, and superficial.' I beg to differ. I did and still care.

I never said 'with no love' so don't be attributing that to me in quotes. And 'taciturn'? Did I say that? If I did I take it back. You are / were 'poker-faced' but you also liked to laugh. Dogg, you're an okay guy. Just this guru has ruined your common sense, that's all.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 00:11:07 (GMT)
From: Wm
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Eyow
Message:
Sounds to much like me

I did want to believe

still do but it is different now, then was then and now is now

ask me no questions and I will tell you no lies.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 16:05:06 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Mitsubishi? - perhaps moxibustion? (nt)
Message:
Mitsubishi? - perhaps moxibustion? (nt)
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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 10:15:51 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Pranam
Message:
Hi again Dog,

I left in the late 90s, and believe, contrary to what you say, Mr Rawat still does have premies kiss his feet.

He does darshan lines in India, he did one in Amaroo fairly recently, and I'd lay odds that the 'inner circle' at the residence are still smacking their chops on his cotton socks every day.

Mr Rawat still also considers himself Perfect Master, so things haven't changed as much as you'd like us to believe Dog.

In fact a few weeks ago I was talking to a premie who's been around for nearly 30 years. He's an intelligent guy, very active, organises local events etc, and he still believes that old herring, 'God is great, but Maharaji is greater'.

That old hindu bollocks never went away Dog. It's there, mainly because the 'Lord' still believes it about himself.

Anth the Glad to be out the cult.

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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 14:01:37 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Pranam
Message:
I was told recently that m manisfested in multiple forms(like Krishna) as the 'res' for thoseclose to him.
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Date: Tues, May 16, 2000 at 09:27:32 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Needed Correction re. Swinging
Message:
In the 90's, the guru used the analogy of the swing. This was done to explain the 3rd technique. It was done in one of his K review series.

While M has often made fun of the need for K reviews, he always falls back to it. Why? I think it is just another manipulative technique to place the onus of failure on the student rather than the teacher. Of course, one could always say, 'HE loves us so much'.

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Date: Wed, May 17, 2000 at 14:56:21 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Angry
Subject: M taught 3rd technique this way - in the 90s!
Message:
Hi Angry -
I have a friend who received K from Maharaji in the mid-90's, and that was how she was TAUGHT by him to practice the third technique. I would guess that he started doing this because so many new premies have had trouble grasping the relevance of Maharaji to knowledge (not hard to do, since IMHO there is very little!), or the importance of the 'Master' in their practice.

If you ask me, the issue of Maharaji's relevance is one of the biggest issues in EV's propagation campaign.

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Date: Mon, May 15, 2000 at 22:30:41 (GMT)
From: Q
Email: None
To: Way/DD
Subject: Swingers
Message:
Whatever pleases you plumb tickles me to death.
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