Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 09:30:47 (GMT)
From: May 25, 2000 To: Jun 03, 2000 Page: 5 Of: 5


raina -:- How far fetched are some thing? -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 02:14:33 (GMT)
__ raina -:- translation -:- Sun, May 28, 2000 at 16:02:10 (GMT)
__ __ Angry -:- translation -:- Sun, May 28, 2000 at 17:19:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ raina -:- Not M. But the people around him......... -:- Sun, May 28, 2000 at 18:43:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Angry -:- Not M. But the people around him......... -:- Sun, May 28, 2000 at 18:58:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ raina -:- Not M. But the people around him......... -:- Sun, May 28, 2000 at 21:40:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Angry -:- Not M. But the people ...No M!! -:- Sun, May 28, 2000 at 23:38:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- Prison is the word for it.... -:- Mon, May 29, 2000 at 01:30:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Angry -:- Ronald McDonald Ji -:- Mon, May 29, 2000 at 14:11:48 (GMT)
__ Gail -:- How far fetched are you, Raina -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 17:54:54 (GMT)
__ __ raina -:- Gail Soffer? i remember you... -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 22:30:04 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- How far fetched would it be for you to shut up? -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 14:43:29 (GMT)
__ __ raina -:- jim scratchin' in the morning -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 15:19:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- You're so fake, Raina -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 16:16:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ raina -:- r u asking to be invited? -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 16:32:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- r u asking to be invited? -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 18:38:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Daneane -:- Offers of help -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 15:39:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ raina -:- what a nice person! -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 16:00:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Daneane IS a nice person! -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 21:00:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- see helen-without sayina a word! i insult u! -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 22:15:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Are 'Demented People'.... -:- allowed here? FA? anybody? -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 23:36:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- FA's? How but one of those posts where u tell us -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 02:26:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Helen!!! Shhhhhh, don't give out.... -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 21:32:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Er, okay there missy, you're bad to the bone! -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 22:03:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Not nice...gravely concerned.(nt) -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 16:03:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- TAKE NOTE: the subtle sinsister use of 'gravely' -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 16:21:05 (GMT)
__ raina -:- it's like watching a stage mom w/ a shirley temple -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 05:23:54 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- it's like watching a stage mom w/ a shirley temple -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 03:08:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ raina -:- ps Correction:it's down below nt -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 04:56:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ raina -:- it's like watching a stage mom w/ a shirley temple -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 04:38:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Raina, don't mess with Latinas in the ladies room! -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 06:50:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Beside that.... -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 15:41:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Hi SB -:- Sun, May 28, 2000 at 22:58:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- apparently i'm an excorsist.....nt -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 18:47:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- it's like watching a stage mom w/ a shirley temple -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 05:11:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- yer not a warm fuzzy one are ya -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 05:13:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- avoiding my question for a reason? -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 05:56:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Correct: GET LOST!!! NT -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 15:44:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- er um what question was that again? -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 13:25:55 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- How far fetched are some thing? -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:14:19 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- Raina, please answer my post! -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 22:08:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ raina -:- katie u're scaring me. (nt) -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 22:32:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Well, U are scaring ME! -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 23:25:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ raina -:- what is up with you? nt -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 01:46:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Talking to you, while waiting for the axe to fall -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 03:17:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- it's disappointing that i would have to explain to -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 04:06:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- it's disappointing that i would have to explain to -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 04:57:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- P.S. Raina -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 03:39:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- i hardly at a loss for internet addresses.... -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 04:16:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ YOU are creepy -:- Speaking of yourself???? nt -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 15:51:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Oh PLEASE! -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 04:23:53 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Let me at him! -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 18:46:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Thank you, Jerry -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 19:33:47 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- With this kind of spiel... -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 02:20:12 (GMT)
__ __ raina -:- it's just a shot away -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 02:41:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- what do I see game -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 22:02:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ raina -:- did i say i needed to be saved helen? -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 22:22:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- where is the fancy free raina of yesteryear? -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 03:21:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- where -:- Sun, May 28, 2000 at 04:52:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- where -:- Sun, May 28, 2000 at 17:29:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- whos in whoville -:- Sun, May 28, 2000 at 15:50:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- just curious -:- Sun, May 28, 2000 at 16:18:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- interpreter please -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 04:49:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ You are down -:- Raina, already -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 16:04:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- who made you my alarm clock? nt -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 19:14:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ At least I have One -:- You don't!! -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 23:35:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- SB? Do you also make fun of people who can't walk? -:- Sun, May 28, 2000 at 16:24:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- YRU here dear -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 05:06:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Daneane -:- I'd object -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:02:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PADDY CHAYEFSKY -:- It's PADDY CHAYEFSKY (nt) -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 05:27:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ raina -:- thanx (nt) -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 05:34:30 (GMT)

Jim -:- Sigh .... flutter, flutter.....my hero! (a bit ot) -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:28:03 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Sounds like treason. -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 07:54:21 (GMT)
__ blood -:- Eloquence amidst the babble.........(a bit ot) -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:18:46 (GMT)
__ Powerman -:- Sigh .... flutter, flutter.....my hero! (a bit ot) -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 02:34:35 (GMT)
__ G -:- What did Prince Charles say? (nt) -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 02:24:16 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Prince Charles' lecture -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 02:49:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- He said this: ??? -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 18:54:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- He said this: ??? -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 18:57:38 (GMT)

Know It All -:- Websites closed based on Rawat's complaints -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 00:50:25 (GMT)
__ Gail -:- This must be the cult's last days. -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 17:59:40 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- This must be the cult's last days. -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 21:18:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Daneane -:- What's that quote??? -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 21:36:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- His credo: Money will buy me a new past -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 05:52:12 (GMT)
__ Ralph -:- They're not that easy to close down -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:06:38 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Bravo Ralph -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 10:07:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ralph -:- and bravo the Russians!!! -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 12:48:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Douche -:- and bravo the Russians!!! -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 14:11:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- The other costs for EV and Rawat -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 10:22:54 (GMT)
__ __ blood -:- The other Lord of the Universe does have..... -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:29:56 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- Good point, Ralph -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:21:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ralph -:- Good point, Ralph -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 13:15:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Good point, Ralph -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 14:38:12 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- I can't see ANYTHING here they could object to... -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:21:10 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- The forum, maybe, but not the SITE -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:28:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ blood -:- He can p*ss away millions on legal fees..... -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:51:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- He CAN p*ss away millions on legal fees, but... -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 04:07:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Those millions -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:58:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- good god! -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 04:13:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stinky Fred -:- good god! -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 21:06:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- good god! It's Saint Helen... -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 21:22:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- good god! It's Saint Helen... -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 22:05:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Our Lady of the Internet Highway, I beseech you! -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 22:14:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Our Lady of the Sad Feline, Be Healed!! -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 03:34:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Thankyouthankyouthankyouverymuch -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 04:05:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elvis -:- Thankyouthankyouthankyouverymuch -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 05:27:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Thankyouthankyouthankyouverymuch -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 05:35:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ The Real Elvis -:- Thankyouthankyouthankyouverymuch -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 05:59:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Well..you did use HIS name in vain.(nt) -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 04:18:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- And actually cqg said it all better below - -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:47:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Thanks Katie-has M got trouble with Tribbles?!(nt) -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 18:41:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Shouldn't that be 'Triffids?' Wyndam (ot) -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 14:47:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- I prefer 'Tribbles'(ot) -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 16:13:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- I prefer 'Tribbles'(ot) -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 16:35:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Shouldn't that be 'Triffids?' Wyndam (ot) -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 15:23:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Yes, great analogy!(nt) -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 21:27:33 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- thanks -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 00:52:49 (GMT)
__ __ Know It All -:- Go ahead, but.. -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:05:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- I'm just doing writing -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:10:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ VP -:- Good point, know it all -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 02:09:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I doubt it will really go much further -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:11:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- I doubt it will really go much further -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:18:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- yeah it got me writing! -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:23:18 (GMT)

jondon -:- Boston Connection-howiecarr@mindspring.com -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 20:42:29 (GMT)
__ jondon -:- It must be working-check out this article -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 21:37:15 (GMT)
__ __ j blood -:- nice findfull text with link -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 21:56:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Angry -:- Middle-Aged Stout Fellow is Coming -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 09:15:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- Bravo Bravo (nt) -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 22:10:46 (GMT)

Nige -:- Fake M experiment: and the winner is.... -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 18:27:00 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- score mine too -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 15:40:19 (GMT)
__ Peter Howie -:- Can Imhave a go to please? -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 00:36:57 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Not bad at all... -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:07:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- Professor Nigel please..... -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 03:44:53 (GMT)
__ Gail -:- Would you score mine, please? -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 20:09:17 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Yes, of course I would, and will do so right now.. -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 23:44:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gail -:- Yes, of course I would, and will do so right now.. -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 14:10:03 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Gail -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 22:11:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gail -:- Gail -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 14:29:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Gail -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 18:17:40 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- READ THIS: how to keep in touch, just in case !! -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 17:15:59 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- READ THIS: how to keep in touch, just in case !! -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 21:26:25 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Good idea. Here's another (just a joke) -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 19:59:28 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Won't reveal our war plans, but DON'T WORRY!!!! -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 21:23:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Anth ? What about that special 'carpet' ? -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 21:00:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Won't reveal our war plans, but DON'T WORRY!!!! -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 21:53:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Donavon eDrek -:- The Atlantis contingent is digging in now (nt) -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 00:14:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ blood -:- encryption of South American Strategic Planning -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 15:21:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- encryption of South American Strategic Planning -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 21:22:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Code 9 -:- Got it, thank you. Over.... -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 17:15:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Liutenant Zelda C Crebs -:- Error code:Procedure #9 Cuppachino Not Expresso -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 18:42:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Comrade Zelda - a question? -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 21:30:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Comrade Zelda - a question? -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 01:55:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Comrade Zelda - a question? -:- Sat, May 27, 2000 at 03:14:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ blood -:- mirror decipher key uncompressed networkwide nt -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 18:22:06 (GMT)
__ blood -:- BOOKMARKED great strategy (nt) -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 17:29:59 (GMT)

Ged -:- The Ex-Lords Lawyers -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 16:34:16 (GMT)
__ ged -:- The Ex-Lords Lawyers- the best name -:- Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 16:40:59 (GMT)
__ __ Anon -:- The Ex-Lords Lawyers- the best name -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:03:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- I'm going to steal your letter! -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 04:37:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Know It All -:- Fabulous post!!! nt -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:12:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ blood -:- ditto (nt) -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:19:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Happy -:- Great letter, Anon! -:- Fri, May 26, 2000 at 12:23:15 (GMT)


Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 02:14:33 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: How far fetched are some thing?
Message:
a la 'Network'...fine if you need a pacifyer...

but can i get a reality check please?

how far fetched do you really think it is to imagine the mind of the 'marketing exec', whose firm 'worked' on the movie 'boy's don't cry' (which i have not seen-so please spare me the re-enactments) having some sort of connection to the 'mathew shepard' (oh god! even to say the name shuts down any communication about it) 'story' with it's feeling of being 'shopped around'. i want to say Paddy Chowevsky (do you really expect me to check the spelling? while calmy discussing an urgent crisis?) (and for the psychopaths that want to tangent off, rent Network...)

how far fetched would it be to imagine that Mr. Sydney Pollack chose an expression of confession through Kubrick's last (even), in a story about intorduction to the unsuspecting mind the notion of a cadvre party, and all that's to represent, and all that i would never venture to pretend to so sophisticated that i have a clue as to what i am talking

how far fetched is it that my experience with M is about death and guns (fuck your money and your whiplash) ? and so i stand....just standing.....waiting to talk.....

why does it feel like theirs no one there to talk to? because people eat up words like sryup junkies, and they enjoy vomitting on the maple trees before and after.......no really......you can see it EVERYWHERE. like a giant catepillar sort of thing

mood indicator: not bothering for a spell-check, or even a re-read for that matter

ok so i peeked....but fuck it....

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Date: Sun, May 28, 2000 at 16:02:10 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: translation
Message:
Well i got my answer! So much for the real point of bringing up the subject....

In general, it seems that people here believe that 'the press' is some sort of entity that comes to people's rescue, and that 'the public' is like some sort of justice seeking, all knowing mt. olympus that eagerly craves the 'truth' (and as if most have ever heard M's name-when it could easily be way less than10% of the population in reality...not to mention a combined IQ of about 45). So at times here, it seems to be a live performance of Shirley Jackson's 'The Lottery'-or at least that sort of mentality....'safety in numbers' popularity contests puddle deep.

On Dateline NBC last year, in a segment about his murder, it mentioned that Mathew Shepard 'wanted to be a star' all his life, and they (just happened!) to have A LOT of NBC interview footage of him YEARS before his attack. This reminded me of the 70's film 'Network' starring Faye Dunaway and Peter Finch, written by Paddy Chayefsky. Where the competition between 'news producers' was so fierce they started STAGING their own 'news' to boost ratings etc.

So the TIMING of this APPARENT coincedence, ALONG WITH a Broadway play opening about a 'Gay JesusChrist' (can't rememeber title), at exactly the same time (!) and the same theme in 'Boys Don't Cry' (acadmey awards and all) release being eagerly anticipated-might make one suspicious of all this synchronicity.

I mentioned the Kubrick film also, (carelessly implying that Sydney Pollack had anything to confess) because of an Australian man named Mark Nagy, who was an assistant to Annie Liebowitz (a very famous photographer). He was the one who spoke about the 'Cadvre Party' he'd just come from with a group of other people who seemed to be giving him the evil eye for being so careless and bold in telling me the gorry details.....of course i thought they were just kidding. but there was something leftover to wonder about still....especially when Mark was found dead of an apparent overdose in front of his TV a few months later. I'd never even seen him drunk before....but again....it all may have veru well been what it seemed...a big coincedence...

While being introduced to M there definately seemed to be some shady characters on the periphery...lawyers (with gold records of Michael Jackson's all over his house) buying houses (second homes) with suitcases full of cash sort of thing.....who am i to judge? i don't know if he was for real or making a joke....i was just taking it all in....finding out 'how things worked' etc.....yes what a mess.....(because of the way i am being so despised it seems wiser to leave out the connection of this lawyer to M here............you'd think people would be more appreciative and patient for such reasons...you never know what info might be useful one day and all that.....but i've never been a 'team' player anyway (unless it's actually a 'sport'). Although it's so cute to watch some of you go from almost violent hateful postings immediately to hallmark-style buddy buddy stuff....anyway....

I don't regret having my eyes opened up to things i never would have ever imagined....even though i feel scarred, and saddened, and miserable about so much of it.......really because i thought that was what was going on around M....intelligent people, who understood that it just made sense, for everyone's sake, to try to free our minds from any and all pretense (which no one pretends is any small feat)......and even though it could get ugly, it was better than living the lies. The lies that MOST people seemed to be guarding with their lives.....only because they didn't 'know' any better.....

My point is that i delusionally believed that M was a magnet for intelligent people, who understood the real power in being honest with themselves, and i saw that as some sort of miracle to indirectly righting a lot of wrongs in the world too boot....how interesting (?) it was/is to realize how dangerous that can be............getting past all that subjectivity....

i expected to find people here who, even though they are denouncing M, are still intelligent and understanding the importance of 'listening' without judging (and the beauty of being able to be discreet-w/o having to COME RIGHT OUT with details bluntly, prematurely etc...) but those that ARE intelligent seem also more concerned with 'formailty' in communication style, and 'making friends'-as if 'the more the merrier' is always best etc. Some people are even looking for green cards, and they're REALLY good at being 'friendly'. It's simply a FACT. (ONE example of many in the 'art of decpetion' that goes on...it SIMPLY does-so don't accuse me of being small-minded or 'asleep'! quite the contrary. Even if a 'mother' is doing it for her starving child-sometimes it's STILL deception...that's why this stuff all can get so ugly....we don't ALLOW ourselves to say out loud the things that are most tricky to get thru). It's hard to have perspective when you've 'known' people for 'so' long.....

Notice I am not speaking to anyone imparticularly here. I'm just thinking out loud. I'm sharing ideas. Imagining a common interest in making SOMETHING better.....

but notice then the overall response i'll get....hateful, toothless, insulting name-calling etc...people will tell ME what THEY think i am REALLY saying instead of just asking me to clear something up! why is that??? WHY?.....

i am a sad fool....never pretended to be otherwise!

'keep your eyes on the prize' right?

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Date: Sun, May 28, 2000 at 17:19:40 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: translation
Message:
For the first time, I believe you DO have a story to tell us about M. While I'd love to hear it, obviously it is your choice. My suggestion would be to only reveal it here, if doing so would be worthwhile to you.

Take care,

Angry

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Date: Sun, May 28, 2000 at 18:43:35 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Angry
Subject: Not M. But the people around him.........
Message:
I do appreciate your attempt at sounding kind....
but the 'for the FIRST time i believe you' stuff is like wha?
i'm eternally puzzled....
why does anyone think i NEED to convince them of anything!!!?
as if! i hardly NEED to be here...i go online a lot...and i check in
to see the bizzarre misunderstandings on forum V....

I'm not TRYING to tell anyone anything....
i have experiences that may connect with soemone elses experiences, which may clear this up or that up etc.... for me or for them etc.....and on and on it goes you know? people LISTENING to each other! how difficult is that? and how fun it would be to run into the (deleted)

I've never said anything, short of joking around, that wasn't true....(or based on someone's OWN words)

when i first posted here i mentioned something about a 'famous person' and was trying to make the same point.....that this THING everyone here is trying to attack, is like throwing rocks at a moutain........stupid analogy but whatever...........but then some asshole compares MY experience to his ability to PRETEND he's not impressed by chevy chase (i think was who he said)....i've met 100's of famous people from the day i was born.......but this asshole projects his little starfucker mind onto me...and the confusion begins! why do people do that? why don't people just listen? especially when we could be ANYONE behind these screens! I spend a lot of time looking forward to dying....because the senselessness becomes so ironically overbearing....i don't need to hear anyon'es bullshit pity......or their 'crazy' jokes!!! yes! such 'nice' people! my worst nightmare would be to have to be 'taken care of' by people like this when one's health really starts to disappear....

i used to think someONE killed kennedy.......and as you get older...you see how infantile people are over their little routines in our stupid little lives...so much so....EVERYONE looks like a possible murderer at times....i really do feel like an excorcist........there's nothing else to do...

and so...we get to know each other.....

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Date: Sun, May 28, 2000 at 18:58:24 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Not M. But the people around him.........
Message:
It's very difficult to know a person's true intentions via the written word as the reader's interpretation also comes into play. This is especially true when the 2 communicating don't know each other in the so-called 'real' world. Whatever the fuck real means. I've not a clue.
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Date: Sun, May 28, 2000 at 21:40:54 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Angry
Subject: Not M. But the people around him.........
Message:
yes and no i think, about the written word being difficult to know a person's intentions....

in a way it can tell more you more (written), if someone is a good actor! you know?
I've known people for YEARS and then find out what they are really about....after i've invested years with them! it's horrible to share memories with someone you can't call anymore...

i once caught my best friend ruffling thru my private papers.....diaries and stuff...
since i had nothing to hide i was hardly concerned about my 'privacy' really....but what got me was the way she denied it! and i walked into MY apartment WHILE she was doing it! the LIE was the real problem between us ...

it always amazes me how afraid people are to simply own up.....
people can go on for years in the comfort of their 'comfort'.....

so i always wanted to believe that if i at least spoke my mind-even at the risk of loosing great oppurtunity or 'friends'...it would lead me somewhere....to real friends.....

even as i rot away here...i do feel a contentment that i trust anyway...and that's why i can't hate M as the people here do.....and the irony that I can be so hated because I don't hate the way they hate etc!? it's just too stupid.........but it's very weird when all i really seem to be looking forward to is dying (not to sound like i'm on my death bed- i'm just falling apart so rapidly it's depressing-i have lumps everywhere! but can't afford a doctor etc...)
dying-without being torturred! that's my only goal in life at this point! slaying torturers!

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Date: Sun, May 28, 2000 at 23:38:15 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Not M. But the people ...No M!!
Message:
Hi-

I sometimes think that the whole thing about 'friends' is just some major confusion on my part. I have no idea what I expect or have a right to expect from a friend anymore. Is my discovery that someone I really cared about but recently 'discovered' to be a total narcissist real? Is it based on me making false assumptions from the beginning? Am I totally and permanently messed up from years of cult conditioning that I 'begged' for due to a false assumption about M from the start? These and many other things have me in a state of confusion and Anger(more at myself). It wasn't supposed to be this way,was it?

I think that on this Forum you'll find a legitimate sample of all you like and dislike in this crazy world. There is a common bond and all the emotions that accompany people realizing they have been victimized by such an obvious scam.

After you're hear awhile, you'll find people you can have conversations with and add others to your current shit list. No big deal, really! Sounds like we're in prison and discussing who the bad dudes/dudas? to avoid.

Off to hide in my escape novel(who dunnit?)

enjoyed talking to you today,Raina...

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Date: Mon, May 29, 2000 at 01:30:14 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Angry
Subject: Prison is the word for it....
Message:
i started up with my 'policy of truth' committment my last year in college...about 2-3 years before i met M.....inspired by a proffessor originally, i was fearless......and i felt like i was 'finding out who i was' as cliche as that sounds....in NYC there's plenty of people to burn thru without worrying about consequences....i was never malicious, and not at all as bitter as i sound here (as i hadn't been raped and looted yet!) and so felt more noble than wreckless really...and actually back then, doors opened for me....(the power of youth and all that!)

when i heard M speak for the first time-i was a little turned off by his polish, a slight sense of showmanship (and maybe a slightly condescending tone) but that was also because, i HATED anything remotely religious. (i once dropped a class in school because of the prof's accent.....to listen to religious subject matter with a southern accent was a horror for me....because of experience with the southern baptist church as a child)

i kept going back to M because of the things that were happening around me...it was somehow centering (so i thought). only once or twice did i ever find myself ever able to disagree with what he was saying...the more i went, it felt reassuring to simply hear someone sound like they saw thru the clutter....and helped me learn how to simplify things too....just dumb little things like 'what you DON'T know is JUST as important as what you do know'...i really became fascinated with the concept of 'original thought' and started noticing more and more (in myself also) how people live the 'paint-by-numbers' pat answers, superficial, pretending-to-understand-in-order-to 'get along' life! if i didn't remember someone's tel # maybe (just maybe!) i wasn't meant to call them! (as nuts as it sounds-i still see some truth in it).

personally, public school left me doubting my own abilities and intelligence etc....there was always a feeling of 'guilt' for not 'reading THE paper' everyday (and only the NY Times would do), as if i were not being a responsibly involved citizen etc...as it stood my ability to put MY energy into understanding OTHER's thoughts was the measure of my 'intelligence' somehow.....and then i started noticing how adults do the same sort of superficial memorizing facts type thing that kids are forced to do in school-as if the people who knew what was 'going on' were the ones who simply had photographic memories! in other words, by repeating what 'the' media was saying verbatim...people sounded 'informed' and responsible....when in fact...shit i'm repeating myself...you must know what i mean right? silence is golden....

so i guess because M never did anything to me but say things that just made sense (apparently way after his 'i am god' years) i enjoyed using him as that centering force.....(until he said to me 'i don't believe you' that fateful last time!) and i only once gave a $10 donation....(not because i was cheap-i just didn't have any money ever!)

but something did take me into a 'point of no return' way of functioning (as you said, 'have i been messed up' etc) in life.......and i really don't know what to think anymore.....i feel like my brain works overtime for no good reason....i'm ALWAYS being accused of 'thinking too much' and
people have sometimes gone out of their way to 'teach me a lesson' for 'upsetting them' (with words!) i think that's why i feel so passionate about SAYING ANYTHING I FEEL like here because, in such a forum it's reassuring to look back and let the record speak for itself....my life HAS been ruined. i could say it was because i was inspired to act like don quixote by a guru! but really what ruined my life was the fear i made people feel, simply because i seemed so free to them....THAT made people want to hurt me....(once i lost a babysitting job because the kid said to his mom 'why can't raina be my mother?' i mean JEALOUSY.....ruined my life....imagine being SO broke, that you only have this lowly little job in the first place-and then loose it! simply because you were a GOOD, correction, GREAT! person???? It's ABSOLUTEly maddening-she didn't 'fire' me, just said 'something came up'etc).....and this sort of thing has been going on in my life for the past decade....i used to look at it as some sort of 'test' of my will and strength.....but now it's just windmill shit....and i've had it......it's all boiled down to 'money'....if i had money...i'd be so fucking laughing all the time (like when i was younger) people 'LOVE' you!!! money, money, money...and that security it brings (really). when you don't have that security (or ball and chain of course) people sense it somehow....and it creates a weird vibe...a lack of 'trust' if you will!

if you can imagine me, as you've seen me on this forum, in 'real' life...you wouldn't believe how many times people have tried to cause legal trouble for me! SIMPLY for saying something....(and i'm hardly as 'free' as i am here, because i am aware of how crazed and dangerous people can become 'out there' etc....but can you imagine the WORST conversation i've had in this forum landing me in handcuffs?! i think that's why i feel compelled to fight with some of these idiots...because they sometimes seem the type to take revenge on someone who made them loose their argument by resorting to something as drastic as having them arrested for 'harassment' (if we were face 2 face) etc..........i'm totally serious....to have heated conversations online seems healthy to me for that reason...(because theer's time to pause and take a breath)....

this makes me a little suicidal sometimes, because the idea of people actually trying to involve 'the police' only for their 'last-straw' revenge element-spoke volumes to me (miss jane goodall of the human being) about where the creation of 'a police state' comes from....surpise! it's NOT the gov...but the stupid, closed-minded, uneducated, hateful, skank-nasty people themselves....

would it be worse to work for M than McDonald's? i mean, what he's doing is OBVIOUSLY dangerous, but i've yet to meet a human being who hasn't lied to me, or has wanted to use me for something for THEIR purpose....or who wants to KILL me because of WORDS SPOKEN!!!!! (like HERE!)

people seem almost incapable of dialogue, it's refreshing to have had this back and forth with you.....(although i'm hesitating about posting it for fear of attack!) shit! this is long!

(watch this-i could be assainated for saying something like):

Has anyone ever thought about writing a book about their M experience?

no re-read or spell-check so i hope this isn't too confused sounding (you can be BEAT-UP here for the misunderstanding you might accidentally create)....

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Date: Mon, May 29, 2000 at 14:11:48 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Ronald McDonald Ji
Message:
not ignoring you...just not in Forum kinda mood!
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 17:54:54 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: How far fetched are you, Raina
Message:
I hate to rain on your parage, but is your preceeding paragraphy really English? Were you trying to make a point? Just look at what you wrote. The Guru has scrambled your brains for sure!
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 22:30:04 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Gail Soffer? i remember you...
Message:
promise! i'll read mine if you read yours?

'What Duh I C' time......

she's still loosing sleep over the stress scars from
grammar quizes in the 3rd grade.....i am truly sorry for you.

and she very fat? (bad fat not good fat)......

please to meet you! oh 'good friend' of the friendless forum......woo woo

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 14:43:29 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: How far fetched would it be for you to shut up?
Message:
I've gotten bored with your opaque bullshit. It's getting to the point where 'Raina' stands for noise. You came on complaining about people misunderstanding each other but the only real problem in that respect is your own juvenile approach to communication. At the risk of offending your own hypocritical finger-wagging about 'unsolicited advice' I'd say you need to find a chat group where there is no theme as such, no central topic to frustrate your 'expression' such as it is. This forum's about Maharaji, in case you forgot. It's not about Raina, it's about Maharaji. If you've got nothing to contribute on-topic and can only post snide, indecipherable Raina-detritus, you shouldn't be here.
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 15:19:10 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: jim scratchin' in the morning
Message:
i dare you to describe your 'dream Forum'
with your 'dream posters'
having their 'dream dialogues'
about each others sagging pectorals

time for another go at 'What do i see'....

i see Jim and roger going at at hot and heavy
exploiting each other's pectoral fetishes.....
ya! that'll 'teach' M!! hey master! here's what
we think of you! (image of Jim dogging his
latest dog etc.)

how effective!!!!

jim-try not to be so depressed because you
smell of decay......i'm sure your insanity hasn't
left you with a COMPLETELY empty life....shirley
there are a few memorable one night stands?

might i suggest that you get past your violent urge to attack me and 'skip over' my posts? but of course if i've driven you to feel compelled to track me down and murder me....i might suggest you use the forum instead, to have your rape fantasy for all to witness...you brave non-anon type you!

don't tell me! you dig graves?

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 16:16:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: You're so fake, Raina
Message:
Raina,

You bleat on and on about how difficult it is to find someone who really understands you (or perhaps is even willing to put up with you for longer than a few curious minutes which, after all, even the strangest zoo animals get) -- 'it's like screaming across oceans....
there's gotta be something out there...
-- but what you can't see is how you've no one but yourself to blame for your isolation. You've posted here for what, a few weeks now? Longer even? But who knows even the slightest thing about you other than the fact that you love to scratch but don't much like getting slapped in return? Your intermittent cleverness is eventually going to wear thin with everyone here. When that goes, so will your welcome. And why? Because you're not interested in doing anything but showing off, trying to make us all into your straight-men, patsies. I guess it's easy to throw the steering wheel hard to the left or right just to see what happens to the people in the back seat, if you're not really driving anywhere.

You seem to have nothing real to talk about here, no real reason for being here. For all I know you just stumbled upon this site and never even heard of this cult before. For all the relevancy of your posts, that might as well be so. So, tell me, are you going to keep hanging out here trying to bug people or what? For how long? Why?

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 16:32:22 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: r u asking to be invited?
Message:
i have legal questions on my mind, and i'm kind enough to talk Psycho
with the lot of you castradis, ya, for weeks now.....

i'll never answer you, while you're telling yourself about me....
didn't you ever study Physics?

maybe you should read 'every' word i write before you start with the
'phun' insanity.....because if you want to talk about 'loosing interest',
i lost interest in your head games when i first met you.....

i don't hold grudges....but pointless shit can loom for centuries....
and it does....obviously.

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 18:38:02 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: r u asking to be invited?
Message:
i don't hold grudges....but pointless shit can loom fo centuries.... and it does....obviously.

Such as?

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 15:39:00 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Offers of help
Message:
Raina -

Many very kind people here have asked you questions and offered their assistance. I do not understand why you continue to act so cryptic and crass.

It seems to me the type of help and or support you need is beyond this particular message board. Perhaps you should seek one out that is more appropriate.

There are better things to do than pick on Jim and ignore that kindness others have offered you.

Perhaps you could address your writing to M directly...I'm sure he could use some colourful letters to brood over.

This last post of yours is somewhat disconcerting. I hope if there is a particular problem you wish or need to discuss, you will state it explicitly and let others help you.

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 16:00:22 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: what a nice person!
Message:
weren't you the same one who was calling me a 'little shadow'? (and worse!
'I'd object if i knew what you were saying!' etc.....

ya-i'm so nutz-can you believe i interpreted that as snotty sarcasm!

'nice' people like you abuse their own children.....go the fuck away....

can i get anyone more toast?

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 21:00:42 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Daneane IS a nice person!
Message:
You're off base Raina. You've lost your perspective when it comes to the forum. Daneane is a VERY laid back person, Suggesting that she would abuse her children is really mean. What has happened to you???????????????????? Why are you striking out indiscriminately at people? I don't get it. I DO understand how a person gets on the defensive here on the forum, BUT I don't get why you paint EVERYONE with your brush du jour. It's unfair and insulting.
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 22:15:49 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: see helen-without sayina a word! i insult u!
Message:
'Who do you claim i am insulting?'

ok im gonna go out on a limb here-and believe that you are
sincerely clueless, and answer you (a.k.a talking 2 walls).
you decide you are going to win your argument, and so conveniently
forget(?pretend to forget?) the REASON i am responding is because
of your post.....(i am not the one pretending not to be bothersome).

if i hold your chin and the top of your head and aim your
eyes RIGHT at YOUR OWN words-you wouldn't recognize
my generous waste of time.

who am i insulting helen?
and please spare me 'volumes' of explanation.

your last words in your post were claiming i was insulting
someone(s) but who exactly are you speaking for? and how
is it that you assume i should KNOW how 'nice' Danenane
is? how gravely nice....who are you speaking for in your
accusation? for yourself? others? i have NO way of knowing
don't you see? poor helen.....(isn't that horrible? a couple of
condescending premies in London said that to me in Italy.
'poor raina' the english man said to me, while holding his
notebook of those ridiculous premie-love-poems he'd 'put
together' for M......'poor raina' said the delusional zombie,
who was so blissed out he didn't see his 'nice comment' as
anything but loving.........nice nice nice.........(i'll leave out the
expletives in one last ditch effort to keep your bubble head
at the wind)

So before you and i can talk about other (other in italics) people, we
must admit that we are not even hearing each other...(sorry for all that wasted time with the italic descriptive-as i know i'm holding some of you up etc)

so what would be the point (spare me an answer, as if i might not know, and you turning that into an excuse to not answer a SIMPLE question, ONE simple question that is.....

'Who do you claim i am insulting?'

i could ask it 10 times
and you won't answer it?

then you want to tell me about other people
including myself?
(the biggest joke of all)
idiot wind
funny-strange
not ha ha

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 23:36:53 (GMT)
From: Are 'Demented People'....
Email: None
To: raina or anybody
Subject: allowed here? FA? anybody?
Message:
I'm new....NOT!
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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 02:26:49 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Are 'Demented People'....
Subject: FA's? How but one of those posts where u tell us
Message:
who this illegal poster is?

like the one you did for me once?

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 21:32:18 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen!!! Shhhhhh, don't give out....
Message:
my secrets....I'm trying so hard to be a bad net person!!!
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 22:03:45 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Er, okay there missy, you're bad to the bone!
Message:
hslasl;kmdfkam
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 16:03:46 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Not nice...gravely concerned.(nt)
Message:
qqq
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 16:21:05 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: TAKE NOTE: the subtle sinsister use of 'gravely'
Message:
i would never pretend to be interested in devoting my life to ghoul fighting.....
you're not 'as they say' worth it.....

but thanx 4 the confession!

do you find me, irresistable, love?

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 05:23:54 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: it's like watching a stage mom w/ a shirley temple
Message:
it's like screaming across oceans....

there's gotta be something out there...

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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 03:08:39 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: it's like watching a stage mom w/ a shirley temple
Message:
Okay raina this post right here... What do you mean by it?
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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 04:56:34 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: ps Correction:it's down below nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 04:38:34 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: it's like watching a stage mom w/ a shirley temple
Message:
i didn't want to be blatantly mean by posting it under Katie's 'Latinoamericans-bringing SB to the top' thread....i was subtly saying to myself and anyone else who might REALLY be paying attention...particularly when it read like a post SB had someone write for her (katie perhaps?) (when she (sb) calls me 'jerk' (!) i feel like i am being kicked by a poodle!!!)

katie seemed (?) possibly (?) bothered that i didn't reply to her pleading post 'to answer her' asap!
and so delved into some useless SB front thread.....believe me i wouldn't even attempt further speculation than i already have!

anyway...i was also being subtle because i can't really KNOW any of this nonsense...it's just how i 'felt'.....and i guess as it spiralled down further from the top...it was even more vague to anyone who might notice.......

(no offense katie)

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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 06:50:52 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Raina, don't mess with Latinas in the ladies room!
Message:
This is not a threat - honestly - but if you went to high school where I did, you would NOT want to get a five inch spike heel in the eye.

Re SB's post that I brought up to the top - yes, I edited spelling and grammar errors, although not all of them. So what? SB has done the same for other people on the Spanish forum. I can't write AT ALL in Spanish, and can barely attempt French. Jean-Michel has helped me with some French translations, and I have helped him with some English translations. Honestly, I take offense to your 'stage mother' analogy! You should hear SB speak in Spanish - I can barely understand a word - and if she could have simultaneous translation here on the forum, I think you might really HEAR what she had to say. Anyway, SB and I had spoken on the phone earlier that day, and I thought that what she has to say was important. OK?

Also, Raina, I really wasn't bothered that you didn't respond to my 'pleading' post. I should know by now that you are unpredictable, right? Because of past experiences, I'm cued in to talk about guns, death, murder, suicide, etc. (I'll spare you and everyone else the details) but I also know that *I* am not responsible for anyone else's actions.

TC, Raina -
Katie

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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 15:41:43 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Beside that....
Message:
unlike Raina, I do not expect people writing on my thread; I just wanted to state a fact!! M IS BEING HURT BY THE exes'S VOICES....Simple as that. I don't have the psychological problem that people looking for attention have. I do not need anyone's attention, well, except....uan...That can be nice ;)

I don't think raina understand or care at all about our emotions about Lard's decission to attack us. Also, I don't think raina is honest... She is hiding something and I don't give a dam what it's, because now I have other things much more important than to read her posts. I found out she was talking about me because you Katie mentioned it. Well, she talks about everybody: Maybe you are next! Yes, she very well can be just a distractor...I don't understand what she is doing here. You Katie, have become a saint: Saint Katie....I just ordained you.

I am not the type of fighting but if she was near and she pushes me enough....She sounded in a post as if she was making fun of me for being latin, and that shows her intelligence and tolerance level toward others very well. I appreciate you talking for me, really, but I don't give a dam about her because I do not respect her...She is a mistery that I don't want to deal with. Who knows what she wants? Do I care? NOP. What I see written all over is plain meaness and IMO, bad people suck!! Yes, I have compassion: They are sick and need help. She has this competence mentality that I hate in people because is divisive and and because insecure people are impredictable. Not my cup of tea.

I love you Katie!! You are such a nice person!! I'm so glad I got to meet you in person!!

SB

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Date: Sun, May 28, 2000 at 22:58:01 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Hi SB
Message:
I know you don't need me to stick up for you, but honestly, I can't deal with this image/persona that Raina has for you. She should meet you in person! Plus I think that you just don't NEED this abuse right now, and that you've already suffered way more than your fair share of abuse on the forum.

I hope my 'Latinas in the ladies' room' image didn't offend you. It wasn't exactly politically correct, but I just got a picture of you and Raina meeting in person, you know? (And I know you're not a violent person, but you're also not one to take much abuse!)

Love you, too, Ms. Super Brat! (or Super Babe, depending on your mood...)
Katie

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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 18:47:48 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: apparently i'm an excorsist.....nt
Message:
for all of you poodily poodles....
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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 05:11:44 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: it's like watching a stage mom w/ a shirley temple
Message:
Well gee, SB is another friend of mine you are getting into it with. So is there anyone you haven't gotten into it with here? DO you see a pattern yet? Or is it all *their* --the unenlightened ex-premie.com en masse?
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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 05:13:41 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: yer not a warm fuzzy one are ya
Message:
I meant to say --is it all their fault, as in, do you see any pattern at all to why people here are finding you to not be exactly warm and fuzzY?
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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 05:56:11 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: avoiding my question for a reason?
Message:
like talking to a wall.....
it's like you didn't even hear a word i said...

but enjoy having someone to walk on the wild side
with grandma?

your 'nice' friends are rabid.....i'm just giving them their shit back at them....
oh mygod! there i go explaining myself AGAIN to you! how ridiculous of me....

and so about Daneane's 'subtle comment'? that's how your 'nice friends'
start in with people they don't know.....

oh god what the fuck am i doing here.........

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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 15:44:43 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Correct: GET LOST!!! NT
Message:
NT scram!! ou do not belong here!
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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 13:25:55 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: er um what question was that again?
Message:
Er...what question was that? Do ya want me to read over all your threads and find it? Sorry no can do. And even if I did take the time, would I just be getting on the same merry go round with you? I guess we're two walls talking to one another. It's not very satisfying. Not sure what you want, I'll tell ya what I don't want-- to tangle with ya anymore, too frustrating, and since it appears just as frustrating to you to talk to me, let's call it a day, 'kay?
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:14:19 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: How far fetched are some thing?
Message:
Hi Raina -
I am quite media-illiterate, so I didn't understand your first two examples (natch - right?).

You also wrote, though:
how far fetched is it that my experience with M is about death and guns (fuck your money and your whiplash) ? and so i stand....just standing.....waiting to talk.....

I keep getting this feeling that you ARE just waiting...to talk...or at least for someone to HEAR you. (Excuse me if I read you wrong.) I keep reading your posts and hearing little hints - things slipping out - purposefully or not, I don't know - amid the comments and jokes and so forth.

I myself would like to hear what you have to say. But as I'm sure you are aware, I can't promise you that you won't be attacked - this place is a jungle at times, and I've had to turn off my computer after somebody's thoughtless reply to a post of mine has either made me want to smash the monitor, or break down in tears, or both.

Anyway, when you say:
how far fetched is it that my experience with M is about death and guns (fuck your money and your whiplash) ? and so i stand....just standing.....waiting to talk.....- what are you talking about? You brought it up!

TC -
Katie

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 22:08:20 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: Raina
Subject: Raina, please answer my post!
Message:
Even if it's just to say that you have no further comment at this time.

Thanks -
Katie

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 22:32:26 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: katie u're scaring me. (nt)
Message:
ghj
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 23:25:59 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Well, U are scaring ME!
Message:
Just write something - if you can.
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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 01:46:14 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: what is up with you? nt
Message:
hjkl
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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 03:17:39 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Talking to you, while waiting for the axe to fall
Message:
Anyway, Raina - you said -
how far fetched is it that my experience with M is about death and guns (fuck your money and your whiplash) ? and so i stand....just standing.....waiting to talk.....

I just want to know what you mean by this (and like I said, you brought it up!).

You remind me of Selene - and that's a compliment.

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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 04:06:21 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: it's disappointing that i would have to explain to
Message:
you 'why' with the delicate subjects of murder (word chosen to make the point aqap), one might feel the need to test the waters.....i thought i did answer that question already? (twice)

'waiting for the axe to fall'? is this something i should pretend i'm supposed to understand? is it a subtle dig (meant in phun of course?) do i need to be caring about that right now in your opinion? guessing? testing our mutual powers of perception with each other?

i don't discuss 3/4's of what i see people manipulating right before my eyes (archived no less?) ....talk about thankless......

i don't know if you've read the zombie load.....

believe me i have a million questions for you....but i'm certainly not desperate enough to discuss serious matters in the company of so many of the game-players here....who seem the type to bore into sabotage....anyway.........as met life says....

and at this point-i want less and less to be here anyway...
the forum may actually leave my 'bookmarks' 4 a while.....
you can comfort gerry and SB

selene seems eternal....thats always nice to run into....

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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 04:57:04 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: raina
Subject: it's disappointing that i would have to explain to
Message:
dear Raina -
You wrote:
it's disappointing that i would have to explain to
you 'why' with the delicate subjects of murder (word chosen to make the point aqap), one might feel the need to test the waters.....i thought i did answer that question already? (twice)

Face it, I'm totally dense. I DO not understand what you think I am supposed to understand. U can e-mail me, or whatever, but whatever you're talking about, I think U need to discuss it with someone.

You wrote:
'waiting for the axe to fall'? is this something i should pretend i'm supposed to understand? is it a subtle dig (meant in phun of course?) do i need to be caring about that right now in your opinion? guessing? testing our mutual powers of perception with each other?

I was just talking about waiting to get an e-mail saying that his site and forum are being taken off-line because of 'copyright infringements'. Not anything to do with you.

You wrote
i don't discuss 3/4's of what i see people manipulating right before my eyes (archived no less?) ....talk about thankless......
i don't know if you've read the zombie load.....

believe me i have a million questions for you....but i'm certainly not desperate enough to discuss serious matters in the company of so many of the game-players here....who seem the type to bore into sabotage....anyway.........as met life says....

OK, and I think I hear you. This forum contains misinterpretation and manipulation. At the risk of offending you, I say 'SO WHAT'. That's life. I actually have found it easier to communicate with some of the people here - either on the forum or via e-mail - than to a lot of the people I'm in daily contact with in the 'real world'.

If you've got questions for me, then ask away. I will do my best to answer them truthfully. You know my e-mail address, and you also know you can get ahold of me on this forum, and in other places. I PROMISE to keep what you say confidential - and I mean that. You can ask for testimonials in this regard if you would like.

You wrote:
and at this point-i want less and less to be here anyway...
the forum may actually leave my 'bookmarks' 4 a while.... you can comfort gerry and SB

Raina, I don't care if you stay here or not - it is your choice. If you've got something you want to talk about, then either post it here, or e-mail someone that you trust - or that you think is relatively trustworthy. U can e-mail me if U ever want to - I think most people here would tell you that I'm trustworthy. But I'm not gonna be holding my breath, or whatever. I've dissapointed a lot of people in my life - I have NOT been the GOOD daugher, sister, wife, 'best friend', whatever people expected that infringed on my capacity to be my OWN self.

One of the reasons I recommended 'Anything Goes' is because you can say whatever you want to without being challenged as to its relevance to Maharaji or whatever. And even though it's a 'gloves-off' forum, people tend to be nicer there - most of the time (no guarantees!) I also recommended Rob's writing forum because a lot of people here like to write - fiction, poetry, stream-of-consciousness, whatever. And I think you're very talented in that regard. I'm not trying to kick you off this forum! Believe me, you don't even make my top-ten list of annoying posters (I hope THIS statement doesn't offend you - snicker!)

As far as Gerry and SB - SB is a good friend, and Gerry WAS a good friend, although we've had some difficulties since then. And Raina, really I wish you'd give some of the people here a break (maybe not Gerry or Jim - ha!), but a lot of the people here are honestly real nice in person. You come on like gangbusters, and people react to you because of that. I don't know if you can even see that, but a lot of people here are willing to listen, hear, and talk. You just seem so defensive, and you throw up all your defenses FIRST, before anyone has a chance to get through to you.

Well, I had to say that, and I hope I haven't blown it - but it really doesn't matter anyway, right?

And you're right, Selene rules. And I DARE YOU to post on Anything Goes, girl! I honestly think you'll like it!

Take care, Raina -
Katie

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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 03:39:54 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Raina
Subject: P.S. Raina
Message:
And Raina - a couple of other forums (I'm too lazy to do the link thing - you'll have to cut and paste.

A writing forum - not too many customers yet, though!:
http://www.hotboards.com/powerforum/pwrforum.exe?who=robsworld

Anything Goes. I actually think you'd like that forum more than Forum V. Stonor isn't there - it makes her computer crash (I think b/c of sound files?):
http://www.paradise-web.com/plus_le/plus.mirage?who=forumlite

See ya round -
Katie

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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 04:16:01 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: i hardly at a loss for internet addresses....
Message:
who says i need more that one 'chatting online' experience....!
'don't go away-just go somewhere else'....!
is this how you kindly add your 2 cents to the 'my opinion of raina' consensus!?

???

p.s (not that i care either way) but example of 'info clashing' here...as someone told me that the Anything Goes forum is run by a 'friend' of stonor's......so all your assurance about 'not having to worry (as if) about stonor'.....is kinda creepy..........

you all should have a 'Sacrifice' page here, and could pick the best 'stoning' sessions you've had (best being the worst pointless attax-to drive 'certain undesirables' away...those that didn't 'open-up' quick enough for the rest!)....the loss is hardly mine....

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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 15:51:45 (GMT)
From: YOU are creepy
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Speaking of yourself???? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 04:23:53 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Oh PLEASE!
Message:
I don't care where you go, honestly. Stay here if you want to, and don't visit any other forum - it's fine with me. Honestly, you take things way more personally than I do, and that's a LOT!

Anything Goes is run by Sir David - he's a friend of a lot of us, and he's kind and non-discriminatory, AND a very good person. I don't know who told you that he's a 'personal friend' of Stonor's - I guess they could have told you that he's a personal friend of mine as well. He's definitely a 'personal friend' of Selene and Robyn, and many other people here - a very good man.

I suggested Rob's forum because I think you are a talented writer. I see no reason why you cannot write there and here as well. You might at least see what I wrote there!

Raina, you are hard to communicate with! You seem to take everything in the absolutely worst way that it could possibly be intended!

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 18:46:37 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Let me at him!
Message:
I've had to turn off my computer after somebody's thoughtless reply to a post of mine has either made me want to smash the monitor, or break down in tears, or both.

Seriously? Who would do this to you? Point him out. I'll rip his head off, or as the brave knight in Camelot said, I will thrash him and bash him, smash him and crash him, and if it pleases the lady, even trash him and mash him!

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 19:33:47 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Thank you, Jerry
Message:
Your chivalry warms my heart. However, you probably don't want to get into this! But I appreciate it.
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 02:20:12 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: With this kind of spiel...
Message:
Raina would be a good talented candidate for M's job, eh??
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 02:41:29 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: it's just a shot away
Message:
ok-
i thought it would be fun to play a parlor game...
'What Do I See'....sort of thing.....Daneane? hmmm
(truthfully i draw a total blank) but for the fun of
it...

somehoe poodily, the hair anyway, and i see her
playing dress-up games with jim heller....maiden
and laiden sort of thing...

i sense it is traumatic subject matter for both of them-so i'll be
kind

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 22:02:30 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: what do I see game
Message:
So what are you saying, that Daneane and Jim play domination/submission sex games? Again, I think you've lost your perspective. You're being mean, why?

Why do you have to lash out like this? I'm curious.

The 'what do I see?' game goes on here all the time. You should experience what a trip it is to meet people from the forum and hear their voices (I am very auditory so I am big into voices). It's actually a wonderful experience in how our perceptions are so mismatched. How we jump to conclusions about people based on the tiny glimmer of their output that we see here. You have accused folks I really like of misunderstanding you and yet you misunderstand them too.

Anyway I think you're a refreshing voice on the forum, but don't get why you have this bug up your butt, raina. If it's so patently awful here why are you so prolific here? What is it that you're looking for--some enlightened voice from the ether/net to save you? Jeez, girl!

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 22:22:20 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: did i say i needed to be saved helen?
Message:
show me exactly where i 'accused someone of something'? please?
pretty pleaase? MY WORDS-NOT YOURS thankyou.....THANKYOU.
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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 03:21:09 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: where is the fancy free raina of yesteryear?
Message:
Raina, you talk about screaming across oceans and you say mean and creepy things to my friend, Daneane. You jump all over Hamzen over a minor miscommunication that was very innocent, IMO, something about ponchos???? You deconstruct text and construct text in your own inimitable manner. I enjoy reading your posts. But you seem to be in attack mode. And true, you have never insulted me, but you insult my friends and make blanket statements about the forum that aren't, in my experience, true. Like jumping to some conclusion about Gail above....that isn't her last name, I mean girl, get yer facts straight, can't you be a bit more linear for the sake of the fact that these are real people, people I've met, you know?????

Is the forum a hall of mirrors at times? Yes. Is it harsh at times? Yes. But listen, hon (as they say at K-mart) if I can survive this place, with my thin as rice paper skin and my romantic idealism which seems to be like fingernails on the chalkboard to Jim, and he is that way to me, and yet, we co-exist!! In this wild wonderful place called the forum. And we like this place! Believe it or not, this place is a little communnity for a lot of us. Okay, so it's the church of satan sometimes, but sometimes it can be a fun place, a happy place, and secret place, a crazy place....where was I?
Anyway, you seem a bit grisly, dear, and I am worried about you. You been reading too much Ann Rice or smoking sumpin? Oh well, Raina ....you make me laugh, what can I say...

Like Cindy woo Hoo in the Grinch Who Stole Christmas, I ask, 'Why are you taking our tree, Santa, why?????????????'

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Date: Sun, May 28, 2000 at 04:52:15 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: where
Message:
Hi Helen,
Cindy Lou Who the littlest Who.
I'm hopeing to invite you to an early christmas in November in DC
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Date: Sun, May 28, 2000 at 17:29:34 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: where
Message:
Dear Bill,
Wonder if I would be to forward to ask that I be considered for the November festivities. Don't know if I'd be able to but I'd like to make the effort.
Re: Suess, my favorite, they all are so good, is Horton Hatches the Egg. When I was just out of the cult and out partying with friends, we got back to someones place about 1 or 2 am and that cartoon was on tv! Now it wasn't on at that time for kids and we all sat and watched it. I bought the book in wait for my own children within days. :)
Love,
Robyn off to work on the Sunday of a holiday weekend :(
I make my own hours so have no one to blame which also sucks :|
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Date: Sun, May 28, 2000 at 15:50:45 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: whos in whoville
Message:
all those who's down in whoville...
didn't Suess have the greatest imagination? He created whole worlds. Did you ever read 'Horton Hears a Who'? Horton the elephant took care of a speck of dust upon which the town of whoville existed. No one beleived him so he had to babysit those whos and be a laughingstock. Kinda reminds me of stoned conversations: 'wow what if a parallel universe exists on this speck of sundust, or WOW, what if WE'RE on a speck of dust in which there is an entire universe, and we're floating in someone else's galaxy...whoa...!!??'
The Grinch story is great too.

WOuld love an early Christmas in DC. Just let me know when and where, dear.

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Date: Sun, May 28, 2000 at 16:18:01 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: just curious
Message:
do you guys have each other's phone numbers and email adresses?

why do you do the 'cocktail party' thing here?

not that it bothers me....just seems 'showy' in some way...

and ironic that i get stoned to death for trying to use this place as a 'forum'....

i imagine Dr. Seuss testing the waters of forum v by posting excerpts from some thought or idea-just to get some feedback and everyone biting his little-who-head off ironically-keeping in step with your post.....

playing gladiators seems more appropriate really.....

send in the lions!

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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 04:49:39 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: interpreter please
Message:
what did 'nice' Daneane mean by the post that introuduced
our first meeting' (up top somewhere) 'how cute jim has a little shadow?nt'

your sweet friend (i'm pretty sure here now helen) was being 'mean'!!
or at LEAST condescending? no?
and i hadn't EVER said a word to her EVER before...

i guess when you read ALL the posts afterwards out of order, it must look to you like i called
upon daneane (or any of these peopel for that matter!)???? is that why you
see me as just 'going off' on people as if I (!) started in on them?!
you've got it backwards helen...

that must be it....
and i'm not gonna worry about everyones lack of perception
for the purpose of trying to maintain some sort of 'popularity' achievment with your 'little 'nice' community'?....don't think so

i don't need to lower myself quite that much.....

but seriously-just explain/translate/ for me? how did i misunderstand daneane's little shadow comment? it was a 'nice' compliment and i'm paranoid? keep tellin yourself that..

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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 16:04:56 (GMT)
From: You are down
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Raina, already
Message:
You put yourself there. Wake up!!
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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 19:14:25 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: You are down
Subject: who made you my alarm clock? nt
Message:
jkkk
sucha fucking joke....
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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 23:35:41 (GMT)
From: At least I have One
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: You don't!!
Message:
I'm awake, you're sleeping....
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Date: Sun, May 28, 2000 at 16:24:57 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: At least I have One
Subject: SB? Do you also make fun of people who can't walk?
Message:
also....why are the FA's allowing you to use multiple aliases?

how nice for you that you have so many friends!
oh i wish i could be as fun and sparkly as you!
always popping in with a cute little peep !

the poodle peeper!

Good One! : telling me I don't have an alrm clock!!!!

damn clever girl!

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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 05:06:15 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: YRU here dear
Message:
You don't see yourself contributing to any of the hostility people here are exhibiting towards you? Yes, from my nice friend Daneane I have never seen hostility and yes the 'little shadow' comment may have been hostile. So it makes me wonder 'Hmmm, I never see Hamzen or Daneane get into it with people, what kind of strange ability does this raina have to get people who I have had many positive experiences with get all hot and bothered?' Raina seems to me you don't take enuf responsibility for yerself, that's the way I see it.

And yes I do tend to read sporadically, I work all day and am raising a kid so I treat myself to a few threads here a day, it's like the way I relax, strange but true.

So why ARE you here anyway? I told you why I hang out here, why do you? If so many people here are those you must rise above (you're the one who asked 'why should I 'lower myself'--your words, not mine)

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:02:08 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: I'd object
Message:
if I had a any clue what you were talking about.
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 05:27:39 (GMT)
From: PADDY CHAYEFSKY
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: It's PADDY CHAYEFSKY (nt)
Message:
CHAYEFSKYCHAYEFSKYCHAYEFSKYCHAYEFSKYCHAYEFSKYCHAYEFSKYCHAYEFSKY
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 05:34:30 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: PADDY CHAYEFSKY
Subject: thanx (nt)
Message:
thnax
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:28:03 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Sigh .... flutter, flutter.....my hero! (a bit ot)
Message:
Here's an open letter Dawkins wrote to Prince Charles after His New Age Highness dissed science the other day:

Richard Dawkins

Sunday May 21, 2000

Your Royal Highness,

Your Reith lecture saddened me. I have deep sympathy for your aims, and admiration for your sincerity. But your hostility to science will not serve those aims; and your embracing of an ill-assorted jumble of mutually contradictory alternatives will lose you the respect that I think you deserve. I forget who it was who remarked: 'Of course we must be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out.'

Let's look at some of the alternative philosophies which you seem to prefer over scientific reason. First, intuition, the heart's wisdom 'rustling like a breeze through the leaves'. Unfortunately, it depends whose intuition you choose. Where aims (if not methods) are concerned, your own intuitions coincide with mine. I wholeheartedly share your aim of long-term stewardship of our planet, with its diverse and complex biosphere.

But what about the instinctive wisdom in Saddam Hussein's black heart? What price the Wagnerian wind that rustled Hitler's twisted leaves? The Yorkshire Ripper heard religious voices in his head urging him to kill. How do we decide which intuitive inner voices to heed?

This, it is important to say, is not a dilemma that science can solve. My own passionate concern for world stewardship is as emotional as yours. But where I allow feelings to influence my aims, when it comes to deciding the best method of achieving them I'd rather think than feel. And thinking, here, means scientific thinking. No more effective method exists. If it did, science would incorporate it.

Next, Sir, I think you may have an exaggerated idea of the natural ness of 'traditional' or 'organic' agriculture. Agriculture has always been unnatural. Our species began to depart from our natural hunter-gatherer lifestyle as recently as 10,000 years ago - too short to measure on the evolutionary timescale.

Wheat, be it ever so wholemeal and stoneground, is not a natural food for Homo sapiens. Nor is milk, except for children. Almost every morsel of our food is genetically modified - admittedly by artificial selection not artificial mutation, but the end result is the same. A wheat grain is a genetically modified grass seed, just as a pekinese is a genetically modified wolf. Playing God? We've been playing God for centuries!

The large, anonymous crowds in which we now teem began with the agricultural revolution, and without agriculture we could survive in only a tiny fraction of our current numbers. Our high population is an agricultural (and technological and medical) artifact. It is far more unnatural than the population-limiting methods condemned as unnatural by the Pope. Like it or not, we are stuck with agriculture, and agriculture - all agriculture - is unnatural. We sold that pass 10,000 years ago.

Does that mean there's nothing to choose between different kinds of agriculture when it comes to sustainable planetary welfare? Certainly not. Some are much more damaging than others, but it's no use appealing to 'nature', or to 'instinct' in order to decide which ones. You have to study the evidence, soberly and reasonably - scientifically. Slashing and burning (incidentally, no agricultural system is closer to being 'traditional') destroys our ancient forests. Overgrazing (again, widely practised by 'traditional' cultures) causes soil erosion and turns fertile pasture into desert. Moving to our own modern tribe, monoculture, fed by powdered fertilisers and poisons, is bad for the future; indiscriminate use of antibiotics to promote livestock growth is worse.

Incidentally, one worrying aspect of the hysterical opposition to the possible risks from GM crops is that it diverts attention from definite dangers which are already well understood but largely ignored. The evolution of antibiotic-resistant strains of bacteria is something that a Darwinian might have foreseen from the day antibiotics were discovered. Unfortunately the warning voices have been rather quiet, and now they are drowned by the baying cacophony: 'GM GM GM GM GM GM!'

Moreover if, as I expect, the dire prophecies of GM doom fail to materialise, the feeling of let-down may spill over into complacency about real risks. Has it occurred to you that our present GM brouhaha may be a terrible case of crying wolf?

Even if agriculture could be natural, and even if we could develop some sort of instinctive rapport with the ways of nature, would nature be a good role model? Here, we must think carefully. There really is a sense in which ecosystems are balanced and harmonious, with some of their constituent species becoming mutually dependent. This is one reason the corporate thuggery that is destroying the rainforests is so criminal.

On the other hand, we must beware of a very common misunderstanding of Darwinism. Tennyson was writing before Darwin but he got it right. Nature really is red in tooth and claw. Much as we might like to believe otherwise, natural selection, working within each species, does not favour long-term stewardship. It favours short-term gain. Loggers, whalers, and other profiteers who squander the future for present greed, are only doing what all wild creatures have done for three billion years.

No wonder T.H. Huxley, Darwin's bulldog, founded his ethics on a repudiation of Darwinism. Not a repudiation of Darwinism as science, of course, for you cannot repudiate truth. But the very fact that Darwinism is true makes it even more important for us to fight against the naturally selfish and exploitative tendencies of nature. We can do it. Probably no other species of animal or plant can. We can do it because our brains (admittedly given to us by natural selection for reasons of short-term Darwinian gain) are big enough to see into the future and plot long-term consequences. Natural selection is like a robot that can only climb uphill, even if this leaves it stuck on top of a measly hillock. There is no mechanism for going downhill, for crossing the valley to the lower slopes of the high mountain on the other side. There is no natural foresight, no mechanism for warning that present selfish gains are leading to species extinction - and indeed, 99 per cent of all species that have ever lived are extinct.

The human brain, probably uniquely in the whole of evolutionary history, can see across the valley and can plot a course away from extinction and towards distant uplands. Long-term planning - and hence the very possibility of stewardship - is something utterly new on the planet, even alien. It exists only in human brains. The future is a new invention in evolution. It is precious. And fragile. We must use all our scientific artifice to protect it.

It may sound paradoxical, but if we want to sustain the planet into the future, the first thing we must do is stop taking advice from nature. Nature is a short-term Darwinian profiteer. Darwin himself said it: 'What a book a devil's chaplain might write on the clumsy, wasteful, blundering, low, and horridly cruel works of nature.'

Of course that's bleak, but there's no law saying the truth has to be cheerful; no point shooting the messenger - science - and no sense in preferring an alternative world view just because it feels more comfortable. In any case, science isn't all bleak. Nor, by the way, is science an arrogant know-all. Any scientist worthy of the name will warm to your quotation from Socrates: 'Wisdom is knowing that you don't know.' What else drives us to find out?

What saddens me most, Sir, is how much you will be missing if you turn your back on science. I have tried to write about the poetic wonder of science myself, but may I take the liberty of presenting you with a book by another author? It is The Demon-Haunted World by the lamented Carl Sagan. I'd call your attention especially to the subtitle: Science as a Candle in the Dark .

• Richard Dawkins is the Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University. His latest book is 'Unweaving the Rainbow' .

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 07:54:21 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sounds like treason.
Message:
...off with his head.

Anth the loyal subject

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:18:46 (GMT)
From: blood
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Eloquence amidst the babble.........(a bit ot)
Message:
Words well thought,
precisely wrought,
yet seldom sought,

placed cleverly 'midst
electronic bits
typed in haste
no time to waste
press submit
release the current
to solve what seems
incredibly urgent,

Would that we,
could all regain,
this timeless sense,
of quality.

Thanks for the reminder.

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 02:34:35 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sigh .... flutter, flutter.....my hero! (a bit ot)
Message:
Some very interesting points, Jim. I haven't read Prince Charles' speech that Dawkins is responding to and I'm gathering you haven't either or you would have posted it also.

Prince Charles obviously talked about food production and I liked some of what Dawkins had to say but some other things I didn't like. You see, the subject of diet peaked my interest because three years ago I had pneumonia, and while I was suffering, a couple of vegan friends suggested I try their diet. Suffering will make you try (and think) anything, as we know, so I stopped eating all animal products.

While the vegan diet didn't do anything magical it was very 'clean' and I was definitely eating better as a result. It's hard to eat well when you eat alot of heavily processed foods.

And here's where I really part thinking with Dawkins... because although he's correct in pointing out that proponents of nature are missing out on the benefits of science, he's overlooking that proponents of science often miss out on the benefits of nature.

It's true that much of what we think of as nature isn't really natural but it's also true that there are different levels of adulterating nature. Wheat, if I understand Dawkins, is a hybrid, but splicing different plant seeds together pose less risk than injecting genes from animal species into plant seeds. For one thing, it hasn't been tested which if I remember is very scientific, and if it proves harmful it will be impossible to reverse the practice. We're really screwed if it doesn't work.

Another point that Dawkins made concerned me. He compared a reverence for nature with a reverence for evolution. Now, all of Darwin's popular concepts are included in nature, but not all of nature is included in evolution (at least from what I understand).

For instance, some laws of physics and mathematics are absolute and beyond evolution, and some of those laws apply to nature. Unless I've really missed the boat, nature is in many circumstances quite brilliant.

In terms of diet, nature has laid the groundwork that science can only build on. So far, scientists have done a shitty job. Although a large population couldn't be sustained without unnatural treatment to our food, it's also true that scientifically created pesticides are poisonous. I realize Dawkins acknowledged that but he overlooked how easy it is for science to overlook the brilliance of nature.

Our bodies process substances that are produced by nature quite well, and nature should get credit for that. So far, the more direct technological tampering with food has been a failure; i.e., the introduction of preservatives, food colorings, high fat contents, and hormones and chemicals to livestock intended for food consumption. The motivation to genetically engineer food doesn't come from a concern to feed our population but from the same concern that motivated previous tampering with our food... Greed. The old bastion of evolution creeping into science

Doctors recommend eating a diet that contains a high percentage of fruits, vegetables and grains which, after all, are natural. If science can improve on what nature has done, that's great but we should be at least as cautious in trusting science with doing this as we should be in trusting nature to provide for our well-being. Nature isn't always the same as evolution.

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 02:24:16 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What did Prince Charles say? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 02:49:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Prince Charles' lecture
Message:
Prince Charles:

Like millions of other people around the world I've been fascinated to hear five eminent speakers share with us their thoughts hopes and fears about sustainable development based on their own experience. All five of those contributions have been immensely thoughtful and challenging. There have been clear differences of opinion and of emphasis between the speakers but there have also been some important common themes, both implicit and explicit. One of those themes has been the suggestion that sustainable development is a matter of enlightened self-interest. Two of the speakers used this phrase and I don't believe that the other three would dissent from it, and nor would I.

Self-interest is a powerful motivating force for all of us, and if we can somehow convince ourselves that sustainable development is in all our interests then we will have taken a valuable first step towards achieving it. But self-interest comes in many competing guises - not all of which I fear are likely to lead in the right direction for very long, nor to embrace the manifold needs of future generations. I am convinced we will need to dig rather deeper to find the inspiration, sense of urgency and moral purpose required to confront the hard choices which face us on the long road to sustainable development. So, although it seems to have become deeply unfashionable to talk about the spiritual dimension of our existence, that is what I propose to do.

The idea that there is a sacred trust between mankind and our Creator, under which we accept a duty of stewardship for the earth, has been an important feature of most religious and spiritual thought throughout the ages. Even those whose beliefs have not included the existence of a Creator have, nevertheless, adopted a similar position on moral and ethical grounds. It is only recently that this guiding principle has become smothered by almost impenetrable layers of scientific rationalism. I believe that if we are to achieve genuinely sustainable development we will first have to rediscover, or re-acknowledge a sense of the sacred in our dealings with the natural world, and with each other. If literally nothing is held sacred anymore - because it is considered synonymous with superstition or in some other way 'irrational' - what is there to prevent us treating our entire world as some 'great laboratory of life' with potentially disastrous long term consequences?

Fundamentally, an understanding of the sacred helps us to acknowledge that there are bounds of balance, order and harmony in the natural world which set limits to our ambitions, and define the parameters of sustainable development. In some cases nature's limits are well understood at the rational, scientific level. As a simple example, we know that trying to graze too many sheep on a hillside will, sooner or later, be counter productive for the sheep, the hillside, or both. More widely we understand that the overuse of insecticides or antibiotics leads to problems of resistance. And we are beginning to comprehend the full, awful consequences of pumping too much carbon dioxide into the earth's atmosphere. Yet the actions being taken to halt the damage known to be caused by exceeding nature's limits in these and other ways are insufficient to ensure a sustainable outcome. In other areas, such as the artificial and uncontained transfer of genes between species of plants and animals, the lack of hard, scientific evidence of harmful consequences is regarded in many quarters as sufficient reason to allow such developments to proceed.

The idea of taking a precautionary approach, in this and many other potentially damaging situations, receives overwhelming public support, but still faces a degree of official opposition, as if admitting the possibility of doubt was a sign of weakness or even of a wish to halt 'progress'. On the contrary, I believe it to be a sign of strength and of wisdom. It seems that when we do have scientific evidence that we are damaging our environment we aren't doing enough to put things right, and when we don't have that evidence we are prone to do nothing at all, regardless of the risks.

Part of the problem is the prevailing approach that seeks to reduce the natural world including ourselves to the level of nothing more than a mechanical process. For whilst the natural theologians of the 18th and 19th centuries like Thomas Morgan referred to the perfect unity, order, wisdom and design of the natural world, scientists like Bertrand Russell rejected this idea as rubbish. 'I think the universe' he wrote 'is all spots and jumps without unity and without continuity, without coherence or orderliness. Sir Julian Huxley wrote in 'Creation a Modern Synthesis' - that modern science must rule out special creation or divine guidance.' But why?

As Professor Alan Linton of Bristol University has written- 'evolution is a manmade theory to explain the origin and continuance of life on this planet without reference to a Creator.' It is because of our inability or refusal to accept the existence of a guiding hand that nature has come to be regarded as a system that can be engineered for our own convenience or as a nuisance to be evaded and manipulated, and in which anything that happens can be fixed by technology and human ingenuity. Fritz Schumacher recognised the inherent dangers in this approach when he said that 'there are two sciences - the science of manipulation and the science of understanding.'

In this technology driven age it is all too easy for us to forget that mankind is a part of nature and not apart from it. And that this is why we should seek to work with the grain of nature in everything we do, for the natural world is, as the economist Herman Daly puts it - 'the envelope that contains, sustains and provisions the economy, not the other way round.' So which argument do you think will win - the living world as one or the world made up of random parts, the product of mere chance, thereby providing the justification for any kind of development? This, to my mind, lies at the heart of what we call sustainable development. We need, therefore, to rediscover a reference for the natural world, irrespective of its usefulness to ourselves - to become more aware in Philip Sherrard's words of 'the relationship of interdependence, interpenetration and reciprocity between God, Man and Creation.'

Above all, we should show greater respect for the genius of nature's designs, rigorously tested and refined over millions of years. This means being careful to use science to understand how nature works, not to change what nature is, as we do when genetic manipulation seeks to transform a process of biological evolution into something altogether different. The idea that the different parts of the natural world are connected through an intricate system of checks and balances which we disturb at our peril is all too easily dismissed as no longer relevant.

So, in an age when we're told that science has all the answers, what chance is there for working with the grain of nature? As an example of working with the grain of nature, I happen to believe that if a fraction of the money currently being invested in developing genetically manipulated crops were applied to understanding and improving traditional systems of agriculture, which have stood the all- important test of time, the results would be remarkable. There is already plenty of evidence of just what can be achieved through applying more knowledge and fewer chemicals to diverse cropping systems. These are genuinely sustainable methods and they are far removed from the approaches based on monoculture which lend themselves to large- scale commercial exploitation, and which Vandana Shiva condemned so persuasively and so convincingly in her lecture. Our most eminent scientists accept that there is still a vast amount that we don't know about our world and the life forms that inhabit it. As Sir Martin Rees, the Astronomer Royal, points out, it is complexity that makes things hard to understand, not size. In a comment which only an astronomer could make, he describes a butterfly as a more daunting intellectual challenge than the cosmos!

Others, like Rachel Carson, have eloquently reminded us that we don't know how to make a single blade of grass. And St. Matthew, in his wisdom, emphasised that not even Solomon in all his glory was arrayed as the lilies of the field. Faced with such unknowns it is hard not to feel a sense of humility, wonder and awe about our place in the natural order. And to feel this at all stems from that inner heartfelt reason which sometimes despite ourselves is telling us that we are intimately bound up in the mysteries of life and that we don't have all the answers. Perhaps even that we don't have to have all the answers before knowing what we should do in certain circumstances. As Blaise Pascal wrote in the 17th century, 'it is the heart that experiences God, not the reason.'

So do you not feel that, buried deep within each and every one of us, there is an instinctive, heart-felt awareness that provides -if we will allow it to- the most reliable guide as to whether or not our actions are really in the long term interests of our planet and all the life it supports? This awareness, this wisdom of the heart, maybe no more than a faint memory of a distant harmony, rustling like a breeze through the leaves, yet sufficient to remind us that the Earth is unique and that we have a duty to care for it. Wisdom, empathy and compassion have no place in the empirical world yet traditional wisdoms would ask 'without them are we truly human?' And it would be a good question. It was Socrates who, when asked for his definition of wisdom, gave as his conclusion, 'knowing that you don't know.'

In suggesting that we will need to listen rather more to the common sense emanating from our hearts if we are to achieve sustainable development, I'm not suggesting that information gained through scientific investigation is anything other than essential. Far from it. But I believe that we need to restore the balance between the heartfelt reason of instinctive wisdom and the rational insights of scientific analysis. Neither, I believe, is much use on its own. So it is only by employing both the intuitive and the rational halves of our own nature - our hearts and our minds - that we will live up to the sacred trust that has been placed in us by our Creator, - or our 'Sustainer', as ancient wisdom referred to the Creator. As Gro Harlem Brundtland has reminded us, sustainable development is not just about the natural world, but about people too. This applies whether we are looking at the vast numbers who lack sufficient food or access to clean water, but also those living in poverty and without work. While there is no doubt that globalisation has brought advantages, it brings dangers too. Without the humility and humanity expressed by Sir John Browne in his notion of the 'connected economy' - an economy which acknowledges the social and environmental context within which it operates - there is the risk that the poorest and the weakest will not only see very little benefit but, worse, they may find that their livelihoods and cultures have been lost.

So if we are serious about sustainable development then we must also remember that the lessons of history are particularly relevant when we start to look further ahead. Of course, in an age when it often seems that nothing can properly be regarded as important unless it can be described as 'modern', it is highly dangerous to talk about the lessons of the past. And are those lessons ever taught or understood adequately in an age when to pass on a body of acquired knowledge of this kind is often considered prejudicial to 'progress'? Of course our descendants will have scientific and technological expertise beyond our imagining, but will they have the insight or the self- control to use this wisely, having learnt both from our successes and our failures?

They won't, I believe, unless there are increased efforts to develop an approach to education which balances the rational with the intuitive. Without this truly sustainable development is doomed. It will merely become a hollow- sounding mantra that is repeated ad nauseam in order to make us all feel better. Surely, therefore, we need to look towards the creation of greater balance in the way we educate people so that the practical and intuitive wisdom of the past can be blended with the appropriate technology and knowledge of the present to produce the type of practitioner who is acutely aware of both the visible and invisible worlds that inform the entire cosmos. The future will need people who understand that sustainable development is not merely about a series of technical fixes, about redesigning humanity or re-engineering nature in an extension of globalised, industrialisation - but about a re-connection with nature and a profound understanding of the concepts of care that underpin long term stewardship.

Only by rediscovering the essential unity and order of the living and spiritual world - as in the case of organic agriculture or integrated medicine or in the way we build - and by bridging the destructive chasm between cynical secularism and the timelessness of traditional religion, will we avoid the disintegration of our overall environment. Above all, I don't want to see the day when we are rounded upon by our grandchildren and asked accusingly why we didn't listen more carefully to the wisdom of our hearts as well as to the rational analysis of our heads; why we didn't pay more attention to the preservation of bio-diversity and traditional communities or think more clearly about our role as stewards of creation? Taking a cautious approach or achieving balance in life is never as much fun as the alternatives, but that is what sustainable development is all about.

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 18:54:36 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: He said this: ???
Message:
He said this: ???

'So do you not feel that, buried deep within each and every one of us, there is an instinctive, heart-felt awareness that provides -if we will allow it to- the most reliable guide as to whether or not our actions are really in the long term interests of our planet and all the life it supports?'

This from the man who had his gas-guzzling limo driven (all the way to Germany, I think it was) so he could use it on a stop-over?

I thought actions spoke louder than words.

(incidentally, did you know that, if/when he ascends to the throne, he doesn't want to be known as King Charles III - he plans to be King George VII?)

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 18:57:38 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: He said this: ???
Message:
I think King Tampon I would be a better royal moniker.
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 00:50:25 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Websites closed based on Rawat's complaints
Message:
Over the last month or so, websites run by ex-premies that are critical of Maharaji, Divine Light Mission/Elan Vital, and those associated with Maharaji and these entities, have been shut down after Maharaji, or his corporate or legal representatives, complained to the net service providers. The complaints about the sites have varied. One complaint lodged by Rawat is that the sites contained copyrighted material. Another complaint was that photos of Maharaji on a site were objectionable. The net providers folded rather than defend the ex-premie sites.

Among the closed sites are that run by Jean-Michel Kahn in France; Roger eDrek in the United States; David Simpkiss in England, among others. These sites were set up to expose Maharaji's past and present and to educate those who were considering getting involved with him today.

Very little, if anything, on these sites violates copyright laws. Maharaji is a public figure. He himself published and distributed his photos and writings, and that of his organizations, for free to the public. In fact, given the history of Divine Light Mission/Elan Vital, and the schisms within Rawat's own family, the claim that this information is subject to copyright that he owns, is a very debatable legal question.

What Maharaji is really trying to do is squelch the dissent launched by his former followers on the websites which he has succeeded in shutting down. This is a source of great concern to those of us who have participated in these websites. We have discussed our own involvement in this cult in the Journeys section of this website. We are only attempting to shine the light of day on a cult and a cult leader which deserve public scrutiny.

I urge you to read the entire contents of this site, especially the Journeys and the interview with Bob Mishler -- former head of Divine Light Mission -- before this information also disappears. I hope that the exes whose sites have disappeared will also chime in here and explain exactly what happened to them so that there is a record of it for others to read.

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 17:59:40 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: This must be the cult's last days.
Message:
MJ's behaviour is very much like the Germans at the close of the war. Kill, burn, trash, and R U N, R U N, R U N !

What a cowardly thing to do. Why can't he face his past?

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 21:18:00 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: This must be the cult's last days.
Message:
I don't know if it's the last days of the cult, I just think he is at the height of his paranoia. So ashamed of his past that he wants to wipe out all the traces. I mean think about it, you'd think he'd be proud to have his words plastered all over the internet. Instead he paranoiacally is trying to wipe out everything he said in his Lord days, he knows it totally corrupts all his credibility. He's reapin' what he sowed, It's his karma come to roost, the shit is hittin' the fan.

HI THERE MAHARAJI, REMEMBER ME? PREMIE NUMBER 823 in the darshan line? How does it feel to be so paranoid, not much fun, eh?????? Why don't you just step off the throne and the merry go round and call it a day, eh????

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 21:36:46 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: What's that quote???
Message:
M must have heard it wrong...you know the one,'Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it?' M must be thinking,
'Those who cannot wipe out the past are condemned to wipe out.'
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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 05:52:12 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: His credo: Money will buy me a new past
Message:
No, he is thinking, 'with money I can buy anything, and I am buying myself a new past. I am, after all, the Lord, worshipped by all.' I think he just rationalizes all this stuff to death, probably has no conscience whatsoever. Has his syncophants do his dirty work, it ain't no big thang to him. Aren't you glad you didn't get sucked in? He's really an uncaring bastard, when it comes down to it. Like RObyn said, 'all bets are off' that he's the Lord--I love that, she is the queen of understatement!
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:06:38 (GMT)
From: Ralph
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: They're not that easy to close down
Message:
I know that Dave's all but given up on the ex-premie scene but I managed to salvage that site and it can now be seen at Go to Hell Maharaji.

Some of the backward links need to be fixed but it should all be there for you to see.

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 10:07:51 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Ralph
Subject: Bravo Ralph
Message:
You're right Ralph.

That's two out of three back already- Jean-Michel's site was offline for a few days too, and that's back now.

We just need to find a new home for the House of Drek.

It must be costing the cult a fortune in legal fees, and all it succeeds in doing is closing a site for a few days.

One positive thing about all this is that it's making us get our emergency backup systems in place.

Does he really think he can shut us up?

Anth the Big Mouth

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 12:48:16 (GMT)
From: Ralph
Email: ralph_smith68@hotmail.com
To: AJW
Subject: and bravo the Russians!!!
Message:
He'll only cause even more trouble for himself and attract even further critism and bad publicity by trying to close down these sites. I've already got the site about Maharaji's unofficial homepage and Truth about Maharaji on five different servers, not all in America. The Russian servers don't give a damn what they put on their web space.

Now, did anyone save that Cult Watch site authored by David Stirling? I've looked on my web cache but I last looked at it so long ago that it's been deleted from my temp net files (so I've lost it). If anyone, including David Stirling, has a backup of that site, just email me and I'll get it put up on a Russian server somewhere.

Ralph.

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 14:11:01 (GMT)
From: Douche
Email: None
To: Ralph
Subject: and bravo the Russians!!!
Message:
Thanks for your interest Ralph in the ol' Cult Watch site. Jan Groenveld, who runs a Cult Awareness site in Australia, has offered to host the censored Geocities site and I'm hoping to have it back up and running in the next few days.

David

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 10:22:54 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: The other costs for EV and Rawat
Message:
is the bad press he's going to get!

He didn't need that, and they very likely underestimated what the reactions would be.

Don't forget to check my new website ..... with new materials every day !!

What they've also won is at least one more exes website in the search engines, when they'll be updated.

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:29:56 (GMT)
From: blood
Email: None
To: Ralph
Subject: The other Lord of the Universe does have.....
Message:
a much better moustache don't you think?
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:21:01 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Ralph
Subject: Good point, Ralph
Message:
They're almost as easy to put back on line as they are to take down :). Good on you for putting Sir David's site back on line, too - he's done a LOT for the ex-premie world. (If you speak to him, please tell him so.)
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 13:15:57 (GMT)
From: Ralph
Email: ralph_smith68@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Good point, Ralph
Message:
Both Davids did a lot and I'm annoyed that I didn't save David Stirling's site, Cult Watch. If anyone has a backup of this, please let me know since I have a server in Mauritius which I can put the site on.

Looks like that forum archives search site has been lost forever too.

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 14:38:12 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Ralph
Subject: Good point, Ralph
Message:
Ralph - I think Jan Groonveldt is going to host 'Cult Watch' on his anti-cult site in Australia (see the Links section on ex-premie.org). David Stirling (aka Douche) and I had a conversation about it several threads below.

Also, Sir D. should still have the forum software search stuff on his computer, along with copies of the rest of his sites.

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:21:10 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: yeah yeah...
To: Know It All
Subject: I can't see ANYTHING here they could object to...
Message:
Know it all, me ole pal,

On what grounds could EV even threaten? ex-premie.org is just old comrades reminiscing, is it not? No photos. No transcripts. Just truth and talk and then more talk... then laugh about the sheer fucking absurdity.

You tell me. I'm no lawyer - I just get drunk with 'em and take their word for it...

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:28:33 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The forum, maybe, but not the SITE
Message:
The ex-premie.org site does contain photos and documents, which may or may not be copyrighted by Elan Vital. I believe 'fair use' gives us the right to post documents with appropriate commentary, which, believe me, we will be more than happy to provide! As for the photos, we would like to know WHO has copyrighted them (the photographer, perhaps?) - and we'd like this information for each photo.

I was talking to an ex-premie friend today, and her opinion was that Bal Baghwan Ji (a.k.a. Sat Pal) may have the copyright on the early DLM photos. I think Maharaji and his mother went to court over this issue in India, but I'm not sure what the outcome was (probably murky). As for the rest of the photos, I think there needs to be documented proof that they are indeed copyrighted - not just blanket statements.

Just my two cents (tuppence) worth, as always -
Katie

Hope your head doesn't hurt too badly tomorrow!

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:51:21 (GMT)
From: blood
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: He can p*ss away millions on legal fees.....
Message:
if he wants to and never miss it. ISPs and virtual hosts do not want to be forced into court because of their clients. Being well armed with information and knowledge of the pertinent law will not keep the site from being shut down by the ISP or virtual host if their business is threatened. Perhaps it would be virtuous to have a friendly discussion with the hosting service. I would have thought that this site would have been the first target to be struck.

My guess is that they will cover their asses as quickly as possible to prevent the eventuality of trouble. They are only concerned with keeping the bits and bytes flowing and the service fees rolling.

It would seem that the burden of proof of copyright violations would be upon the claimant, EV or M but the tendency of the ISP will be to avoid confrontation. Unless of course it is an ACLU server.

I think that any effort to create allies among press, cult watchers, even ACLU might be good FA strategies. The more eyes that come to the site the more damaging will be the effects to any perpetrators of its destruction.

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 04:07:41 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: blood
Subject: He CAN p*ss away millions on legal fees, but...
Message:
Hi Blood -
My guess is that M HATES to spend money on stuff like this - whether he'll 'miss' it or not. Also, a lot of the money he's spending probably CAME from people who use this site and forum.

I'm not surprised that the Geocities sites were taken out first. Really, Geocities is a personal home page site, and I am sure that they do not want ANY controversy. They can get all the clients they want, since they charge nothing. I think that server/client relationships get a bit more complicated when the client is paying for the service.

At ex-premie.org we do have a good, and long-standing professional and financial relationship with our server, and I'm glad for that. I feel (hope, anyway) that they'd discuss things with us first - if it comes to that. I understand the need to put their financial status first, and I do understand that vague claims by supposedly 'high-powered' law firms can be intimidating. But this site WILL continue to exist, no matter what - there is NO way that can be prevented.

You wrote:
I think that any effort to create allies among press, cult watchers, even ACLU might be good FA strategies. The more eyes that come to the site the more damaging will be the effects to any perpetrators of its destruction.

Yes, we are pursuing ALL those avenues, and so are a lot of the other people who use the forum and site (thanks to all of you who have acted on behalf of all the ex-premies). The support from other cult watch groups has been quite heartening to me - and is much appreciated! Also, I'd like to remind anyone who reads this that ANYONE here can send an e-mail, write a letter, make phone calls. Lots of contact information has been provided here on the forum - use it, if you feel moved to do something.

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:58:33 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: blood
Subject: Those millions
Message:
Will fighting against the bad net people be the next fund raising guise?? Maybe the myth of Amaroo construction costs isn't raking in enough dough for him.
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 04:13:05 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: good god!
Message:
You may be right, Daneane. Still, the people who GIVE the money have got to draw the line somewhere. Maybe they can believe we're the AntiChrist or something, but sheesh!
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 21:06:12 (GMT)
From: Stinky Fred
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: good god!
Message:
Whoa, wait a minute there, you mean we aren't the Antichrist? Jesus fuckin' Christ, after I ordered that devil costume and everything. Uh, could someone tell me where the Satan Reenactment site is again, I lost the URL and ended up here.....
hee hee it's Helen
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 21:22:34 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Stinky Fred
Subject: good god! It's Saint Helen...
Message:
...Our Lady of the Internet Highway (snicker - you won't lose THAT nickname fast, girl!).
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 22:05:09 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: good god! It's Saint Helen...
Message:
HA HA
DId you get my email? 'Ladies Ladies!! Surely your parents taught you some manners!!'
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 22:14:34 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Our Lady of the Internet Highway, I beseech you!
Message:
My parents DID teach me manners, but only what fork to use, and other things that show in public (I can't eat until the hostess picks up her fork; I have to put my napkin - AND my left hand, in my lap; I have to say, and ACT, thankful for things that I don't want and think are horrible; I cannot talk to someone until I am properly introduced; I have to act like I didn't notice my mom passing out right on the dinner table). Otherwise, we learned to be unbelievably rude to other people, as long as we kept our voices down and were slightly ambiguous - or quite unambiguous after we'd had a couple of bottles of very expensive wine...

Hey, I'm punchy from waiting for the axe to fall, and from communicating with about sixteen resistance groups. How about you?

Love,
Katie

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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 03:34:41 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Our Lady of the Sad Feline, Be Healed!!
Message:
sounds like you had to swallow a lot of shit...I touch you with my magic mouse and you are healed, sister!!

You on a death watch, sister? I think M's playing his cards close to his chest, WOndering how to go about messin' with this strange motley group of independent thinkers. I mean ya got everything here, what a mixed bag.Ya got yer ravers, yer democrats, yer pro-NRA folks, yer priests fer crying out loud (where's Fr. Mickey anyway)--say a prayer for us Fr. Mickey--but not the last rites!!

You did good here katie, you and Brian have done a lot of good. be proud sister. Thanks for the opportunity (that word that has so many sterile connotations now--funny how words get that way when they are part of a brainwashing process), funny how concepts like 'manners' lose their original intention and get all twisted around.

Yeah, I'm punchy too, keep me posted!!
Love
Helen

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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 04:05:38 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Thankyouthankyouthankyouverymuch
Message:
And St. Elvis thanks you too :). I have his personal word on this.

Seriously, I'm OK, not too worried, and of course, I always know I have the blessing of Our Lady of the Internet Highway. One thing, though - can you get them to stock candles with your picture on them at K-Mart?

Love ya -
Katie

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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 05:27:47 (GMT)
From: Elvis
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thankyouthankyouthankyouverymuch
Message:
ha ha ha ha ha --god, I swear to ya, if they do sell candles with my face on them at K-mart, I'll end up like Kathy Lee Gifford red-faced over exploiting some poor candlemakers somewhere, and my smiling picture like Aunt Jemima staring out of 2 billion candles stored in a warehouse somewhere like Maharaji's booty.

DOn't even ask me what I just wrote!
Hafta tell ya, I found Octavia Butler's Parable of the SOwer at the library! Can't wait to read it. She is so hot. You know after reading that one book I coincidentally found two articles about her, one in the Wash Post and one in the Baltimore Sun a few Sundays ago. She is really interesting, I love her writing, and her subject matter.

Okay so why are we both up this late? sleep ...sleep ...sleep...remember when the witch in the Wizard of Oz says that ? Colleen does such a hysterical imitation of that. She is literally bouncing off the walls about her b'day--I had better get some sleep.

Hang in there
Helen

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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 05:35:14 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Elvis
Subject: Thankyouthankyouthankyouverymuch
Message:
Good googly mooglly, I REALLY thought that if I stayed up for enough hours that the KING would reveal himself to me. And it's only 'Our Lady of the Internet Highway'! What a disappointment! Tell Elvis hi for me, hon - and to come in person next time.

'Parable of the Sower' is great - although somewhat apocalyptic - you know I have a problem with that kind of stuff. She writes SO well, and it is so great to see a BLACK FEMALE science fiction author make it. She has won several SF awards already.

I'm up late because you know why. Thanks for keeping me company!

Love you, St. Helen -
Katie

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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 05:59:43 (GMT)
From: The Real Elvis
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thankyouthankyouthankyouverymuch
Message:
Well there little lady, feelin' a little blue, le me sing 'Blue Christmas' for you...

Yeah I know, you want me bad baby, but I belong to the astral plane now, and I am in a different form now, yes, you know me from those Elvis decanters on QVC, but I am in the form of a very fat cat now, I have reincarnated, and you know I am very near you at this very moment...and i am blue too...
(:

Okay I have reached my absolute limit of staying up late.
G'night and bless you and may the saints of the internet preserve us tonight

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 04:18:51 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Well..you did use HIS name in vain.(nt)
Message:
The Lord god Maharaji. I cower before thee.
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:47:38 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: all
Subject: And actually cqg said it all better below -
Message:
so I'm quoting his post. Thanks CQ, and I agree!

CQ wrote:
Strikes me that the onus is on Rawat to inform the Online Service Provider (OSP) exactly which material on the site is infringing copyright. For the whole site to be shut down simply simply because a certain percentage of it infringes copyright might bring a gleam to Mr Rawat's beady eye, but there's no way he could censor original material/discussion about his little scam.

The following is from http://www.arl.org/info/frn/copy/osp.html:

QUOTE:
Among the elements of the notice and takedown process are the following:

Proper written notification from a copyright owner to an OSP must include:

* the name, address and electronic signature of the complaining party,
* sufficient information to identify the copyrighted work or works,
* the infringing matter and its Internet location,
* a statement by the owner that it has a good faith belief that there is no legal basis for the use of the materials complained of, and
* a statement of the accuracy of the notice and, under penalty of perjury, that the complaining party is authorized to act on behalf of the owner.

Any misrepresentation of material facts will subject the offending party to claims for damages and attorneys fees.

Good Samaritan Immunity and 'Notice and Put Back.'
If the OSP complies in good faith with the statutory requirements, the new law immunizes it from liability to subscribers and third parties; however, this immunity is
conditioned upon affording the affected subscriber notice of the action. If a subscriber files a proper 'counter notice,' attesting to its lawful use of the material, then the OSP
must 'promptly' notify the copyright owner and within 14 business days restore the material, unless the matter has been referred to a court. The counter notice must contain these elements:

* The subscriber's name, address, phone number and physical or electronic signature.
* Identification of the material and its location before removal.
* A statement under penalty of perjury that the material was removed by mistake or misidentification.
* Subscriber consent to local federal court jurisdiction, or if overseas, to an appropriate judicial body.

ENDQUOTE

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 18:41:33 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thanks Katie-has M got trouble with Tribbles?!(nt)
Message:
Thanks Katie-has M got trouble with Tribbles?!(nt)
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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 14:47:56 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Shouldn't that be 'Triffids?' Wyndam (ot)
Message:
Hi cq,

Shouldn't that be m's ' Day of the Triffids?' a la John Wyndam? I am a fan of his.

How are you, BTW? I see you've been very busy with these late breaking freedom of speech stories. I've learned a lot from reading some of the last week's postings about key m issues. I still wonder how he could have had it done without ANY discussion! Unbelievable, like too many other things, I guess.

Take care,

Stonor.

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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 16:13:29 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: I prefer 'Tribbles'(ot)
Message:
Just the image that it brings to mind makes me laugh. That has got to be one of the best Star Trek episodes ever.

Hi Stonor - glad to see you here! I just sent you an e-mail.

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 16:35:55 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I prefer 'Tribbles'(ot)
Message:
Hey, I thought Tribbles were from a Star Trek episode. I never liked the show but a friend LOVED them. If she was babysitting for her brother and sister she locked them in the bathroom and threatened them with bodily injury if they made a sound while that show was on. I got the drift and sat SILENTLY!!!! :| That show though I liked. It was the only one ever! And cq, I thought it was a great analogy also. :) I never saw that gremlins movie but from what I understand it are kind of like that too. It is heartening to see the reaction and action of the exes to this form of intimidation! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 15:23:02 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Shouldn't that be 'Triffids?' Wyndam (ot)
Message:
Hey, Stonor!

Wondered where you'd got to. Good to see you back. You know, the old email thing is good for sharing private stuff, but there's a part of me that gets a big buzz off posting on a public forum like this. I must be a closet exhibitionist or something.

Anyway, these are exciting times on the old FV front, what with Rawat making his biggest mistake of the new millennium, and duplicates of the offending websites sprouting up all over the place. That, btw, was the reference to 'Tribbles' (you didn't watch the first Star Trek series with Spock, Jim, Bones et al?) The Tribbles were a breed of alien furry fuzzies that kept reproducing all over the Enterprise.

Triffids? Wyndham was required reading when I was knee-high to a grasshopper. Beleive me, I've had nightmares about them!

BTW, are you spending too much time in the garden? ;)

Have fun,

Chris

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 21:27:33 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Yes, great analogy!(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 00:52:49 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: thanks
Message:
I'm editing an intro for JM's site and will incorporate this, if it's oK.
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:05:57 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Go ahead, but..
Message:
You might want to wait and see if the webmasters from the supressed sites post with helpful information.

Good luck.

Know It All

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:10:39 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: I'm just doing writing
Message:
The facts are coming in. i'm writing around them. (if that makes sense) Thanks.
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 02:09:25 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Good point, know it all
Message:
You bring up a good point and it is a true point. EV, Maharaji and some premies object to any negative publicity for Maharaji or EV. That is why they are doing this--to squelch any point of view about him other than their own. Kind of reminds me of Christian fundamentalist right wingers bombing abortion clinics (well, not as violent as that, but just as stupid!) Some of the self-righteous comments I have heard on here sound just like those fundamentalists.

This has NOTHING whatsoever to do with a concern over their copyrights. It's just the only tactic they could come up with to get rid of a threat to their gravy train.

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:11:55 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: I doubt it will really go much further
Message:
i can't see how it can. Do you VP?
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:18:32 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I doubt it will really go much further
Message:
IMHO, closing - or attempting to close - these websites down was an UNBELIEVABLY stupid move. M could have just left us here fighting amongst ourselves - snicker! Well, it's done NOW.

Hey, wasn't 'Know It All''s post good? And it wasn't even copyrighted!

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:23:18 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: yeah it got me writing!
Message:
stupid move on M's part is right. I haven't felt this close to
all the ex's in ages. What a goof that dumb shit is.
I am afraid I am going to be late late on my stuff. Went out to a promised dinner date and am now back at my 'job'
well here anyway.
We learned discipline from the best of em huh?
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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 20:42:29 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Boston Connection-howiecarr@mindspring.com
Message:
If everyone writes something to howiecarr@mindspring.com and let him know WHO it is that is coming to town. He will do a segment on his talk show about him. He loves to expose fakirs and the like. Drop him a line letting him know that the one called the LOTU is coming to Boston on June 12 at the Copley Theatre. M will not like, nor needs this exposure. Be sure to mention the groups penchant for pedophilia.
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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 21:37:15 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: all
Subject: It must be working-check out this article
Message:
Just got this link from a friend in Rhode Island. It is from a largely distrubuted (state-wide) art weekly. Scroll down to the article on the LOTU don't die, they just change outfits:

http://www.providencephoenix.com/archive/pj/current_pj.html

Maybe M will get his law team, Screwem and Cheatum, to silence this paper. What great press that would be.

ps. howiecarr@mindspring.com also does an article in the Boston Globe or Herald.

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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 21:56:16 (GMT)
From: j blood
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: nice findfull text with link
Message:
Article copied in part with full credit given to Phillipe and Jorge's
Cool, Cool World

Lords of the universe don't die, they just change outfits

You may recall that fabulous, self-proclaimed lord of the universe, Guru Mahara Ji from back in the '70s. A stout young fellow with a penchant for multi-million dollar jets and luxury automobiles, Ji amassed quite a following with his entertaining performances. Your superior correspondents actually knew a number of his followers (called Premies), who were so dazzled by Ji that they gave up most of their earthly possessions, all so he could have another yacht.

Good news for those folks who still feel that Ji is the modern exemplar of 'Love.' He's still around and will be doing a show at the Copley Theater (224 Clarendon Street, Boston) on June 12. We mention this because Ji apparently likes to keep these things sort of hushed up to preclude media from showing up and (shudder) implying the whole thing is a massive scam. We understand that only about 600 of his followers have been invited to this clambake at $45-a-head, which should be enough to fuel the Gulfstream IV for a few days. To help the poor guy out, we're suggesting you make it over to the Copley just to see how the operation has changed now that he's wearing a suit and a tie.

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 09:15:28 (GMT)
From: Angry
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Middle-Aged Stout Fellow is Coming
Message:
Thanks Jondon,

What a nice article to wake up and read in the morning.

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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 22:10:46 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: j blood
Subject: Bravo Bravo (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 18:27:00 (GMT)
From: Nige
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Fake M experiment: and the winner is....
Message:
Gerry!

I have decided not to reveal the correct solutions. If the exes can't do this, I don't think premies will be able to either - so I intend to use these in future whenever a premie visitor starts talking about the 'importance' of going to see 'maharaji' to be reminded etc.. so I'll just say, why not just write 'em yourself?

The more important question they will not be able to answer is: if you can't tell M from me being a fake M, then how do you know M isn't also being a fake M, and wasn't a fake all along?

Anyway, here is the scoresheet (cunning mathematicians should be able to go the archive and work out the solutions if they really wanted to.)

An answer was only considered correct if you identified both the source and - where appropriate - whether it was M in the 70's or 90's.

Anon = 0
Mahatma Bungiejumpanjee = 0
Marianne = 1
Cq = 3
G = 4
Elaine = 4
Gerry = 5

And a reminder of the experiment:

>>>

(1) How many of the following seven passages are extracts from Maharaji's addresses?
(2) Of those which were given by M, how many are from the 1970's (before M 'evolved') and how many from the 1990's?

[remember I altered the vocab in places to hide any references to 'Guru Maharaj ji' or 'Perfect Master' - changing these to 'the Master']

(1)
It's just like this really: where are we and what are we doing? Man looks up and sees this Moon in the sky. This beautiful Moon, and he says: 'I wonder if I could go up and land on it.. See what it's like up there. So he builds this amazing rocket, gets the best engineers to design it, and the first one maybe goes into orbit round the Earth..
Then he builds a better rocket and goes into orbit round the Moon.. Slowly, slowly all these rockets are getting bigger. They get more powerful, and they design this landing module which can detach from the main spaceship and it's like 'Hey, Jiminy Cricket!' Man has landed on the Moon. And so there he is, up there on the Moon, and it's like 'Wow, that is really something - man is on the Moon.' But then what does he do? He's standing there on the Moon - one guy, maybe two guys in these breathing helmets - they look up in the sky and what do they see?
I'll tell you what they see: they see the Earth up there in the sky. And it's beautiful! And maybe at that moment they know, they realise something. They know the place they really want to be is there on the Earth. That's really how it is! Where we already are - that's where we most need to be..
>
(2)
Have you seen worms? Have you seen ants? I can understand what it means to be born as an ant or worm in your next birth. That's why it has been said: 'It is with great good fortune we secure this human body. It is rarely attained even by gods, as scriptures say. It is actually the means to practice Knowledge and the gateway to salvation...'
But you just tell me one thing. Do ants go to their jobs? No. Do they get stuck in traffic jams? No. Do they pay taxes? No. Do they need to vote? No. Do they face all these worldly problems? No. Do they get two square meals a day? Yes. Do they have a place to live? Yes., So you just tell me one thing: There are those people too who sleep on the pavements and pass their time in trouble and tribulations. Now whose situation is better? The situation of ants or the situation of those people on the pavements? You tell me, those poor people who have no place to live, no food to eat, how do they fare in this world? Have you ever seen ants begging alms? Oh, everything is provided to ants... Have you ever seen ants saying, 'Yes sir. Yes sir!' Have you seen ants doing flattery without purpose? Have you seen ants saying, 'Please forgive me, oh forgive me?' So, you just tell me, on one side there is this human being and on the other is that ant. And for ants there are no restrictions. They are going on without any restraint. Then whose lot is better?
>
(3)
And there's this question, this big mystery.. What is this life? - this precious life - what is it? Why do we have it? What do we do with it? I mean, we have these five senses and we have all these incredible things to experience. I mean, it's out there for us. So many things to get into, things we get lost in, and that's exactly what we do. Look at it like this: we have these eyes. We need these eyes to even see where we're going. But we also use them to see the beauty - just of the world.
Also these ears.. life is tricky without them. Life is a problem. Sure it is. We need hearing for understanding each other. But also we can use those ears to listen to music. Whatever kind you like... we know what we prefer. I won't talk about that! Or the smelling sense - it's like that joke: 'My dog has no nose' and the other guy says, 'How does he smell?' and it's like 'Really bad!' meaning the dog smells really.. Ok, it's funny! It's a joke..! Ok, but is it really a joke? I don't mean it's funny not to have these senses. No, not that. I mean it's really no joke the way we are so caught up in these senses.. just tasting, just experiencing it all. And it's amazing. But it's really no joke that we miss the important thing. The thing our senses have no knowledge about.. The thing they don't even know about. They are supposed to be senses but sometimes they can't even sense it!
>>
(4)
And we want things.. no doubt about it. We see something in a shop window, and that's what we want. A minute before we were happy.. just walking down the shopping mall or whatever. We're whistling and smiling, you know, kicking stones or something. Just feeling Ok, Not feeling great but Ok, Then we look in that shop window and we see something just so amazing it's like - 'Hey, I'm not happy any more - I want one of those..' No, it's worse than that, we say 'I need one of those..'
Whatever it is, a golf bag or a hi-fi, lots of things - it could be anything. Something not too valuable at all, something that isn't really necessary.. But suddenly we want it, and we're not happy until we get it. If we're just a kid we'll pester our moms until we get it.. Remember that? But that's how it is later on, too. We grow up, we want different things but we still have to have them. So one way or other we get them. But then what? Are we happy yet? You bet we're not!' Tell me, why is that? I can tell you that. I can explain that, and that's what the Master always comes to tell you, what he comes to explain. And he'll explain it again and again - it's like a full-time job. Believe me, it is a full time job, sometimes! But the beautiful thing is, all you have to do is listen. Simple as that. Just listen and understand something.
>
(5)
What is happiness? We know the word, what it means and sometimes we'll tell each other 'Yes, I'm really happy today'. And we mean it! But is it possible we don't even know what that word 'happy' really means? Perhaps we never even knew it, never really felt it inside. So we look for it outside. Of course we do. If we've never had something - I mean, maybe we've had it but now we've lost it, we look outside ourselves for it..
It's like my father, Shri Hans, used to say when someone in the residence lost something. They'd always start looking someplace furthest away - out in the garden and the flowerbeds or somewhere.. I mean it could be just they felt dumb for losing whatever it was and didn't want anyone to see them looking for it..! But Hans Ji always said 'Never look outside for what you lost indoors..' and that is so true. He wasn't talking about losing things, really losing things. He meant something else. That thing we really want, that thing we lost somewhere along the line.. and it's just like we know it's there somewhere. It's like an instinct, like a memory from way back
That happiness, and we go 'damn it! I just know it's gotta be here somewhere.' But isn't that really what it's like? Except if we don't know where we were when we lost our keys, and 'keys' is good, 'keys' is exactly right! - if we don't know where we were when it happened.. Ok, we kind of suspect they're in the house, inside us somewhere, but unless someone can show us where, then what chance do we have Is there any chance of finding those keys?
>
(6)
Some of you accept this Knowledge then go off and do your own thing. You say 'Thanks a lot [....], I have what I have now. I'll just go and practice it. Do it my way.' And the Master says 'Hang on a minute, are you going to be Ok?' And you say 'Sure. I know what to do. I understand it, I understand everything..'
And in a way, that's all right. That's fine. Knowledge is free - no strings attached! If you want to do it like that, then that's what you can do, and the Master just says 'See you later, then..' And, believe me, the Master usually will see them later. Why? Because it's like this.. You're teaching this kid to read, and you give him the alphabet. So does the child know how to read? Has he learned to use the language? No - of course he hasn't - but that's what it's like. Exactly what it's like. This Knowledge is like a language. You get the techniques and it's like having your alphabet, but you don't even know what language you're learning. Because Knowledge isn't that kind of language. You won't find a vocabulary, won't find a dictionary anywhere. This isn't French or Chinese. This is the Master's own language - the language of all the great Masters. It is a language of love.. the language of happiness. In fact it isn't even 'about' anything like those other languages. In a way it's not only a language of love but a language about love, and it is the supreme language.
So if you think you know what that means then, 'Ok, that's fine - off you go'. But just remember where you got the alphabet because that's where you'll find the vocabulary and all the rest of it.
>
(7)
And here we all are again. And why? For that one reason, that one simple reason - to grasp that opportunity while we have it.. That continuity. That rare and precious thing, Just to be alive and in the company of our Master. Do we have any idea? Do we really have any idea how fortunate we are? What that means? Can we guess how many lifetimes it took? 'Lifetimes spent in ignorance, wasted years in searching' All that time waiting for the one thing we most wanted? That thirst of which Kabir and Tulsidas spoke? I'll tell you this right now: that thirst itself is precious, for 'without the thirst there cannot be the joy of drinking at that well'. .
I mean, do monkeys know that longing? No! Nor do they know the joy of fulfilment or recognition when they meet that living Master? No! To behold that Master and recognise the source of the fulfilment. To know the fulfilment and be merged with that Master? Because - it's crazy - that is it! That is all! That much is everything.
What more is there? Yet we blow it! We blow it again and again. It isn't easy! Ok, it looks easy. When we hear the Master speak it sounds easy. Very easy. Knowledge is simple, right? Well, yes it is, but it is also the hardest thing, a dangerous thing. This is really is a treacherous path and it is easy to slip over the edge. And that is the reason we pray - pray constantly - to our Master to help us. To hold onto us - it's like he ties his rope around our middles, so we don't just go 'Hey, I wonder what will happen if I untie this knot!'
Because that is what we do. Or we say 'I don't think this knot looks right. I'll untie it and see if I can tie a better one. It's like we always imagine we can see a better way of doing things - a better way of realising this Knowledge. So we untie the knot and, next thing, there we are at the foot of the mountain! If we're lucky we'll just have a sore head and we just have to go back and start climbing again. If we're not so lucky we'll have fallen too far - just blown it completely. Like the cat's nine lives - 'Uh-ho, there goes number nine! Help me, Lord! Can you get me out of this?' And it's not funny any more.. Seriously, it isn't. Because sometimes the Master can't get you out of it.'

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 15:40:19 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Nige
Subject: score mine too
Message:
Okay, I wanna try to.

#4 real 70s ( if this is fake you were clever to say Hi Fi)
#5 real 90's? ( the part about Shri Hans too wierd to make up)
#6real 90s ( just a damn good job if its a fake)

rest fake.

This is a total guess. I cannot tell at all.

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 00:36:57 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Nige
Subject: Can Imhave a go to please?
Message:
Fascinating stuff.

Can I have a go
Fake
90's
90's
Fake
70's
90's
Last one fake

The longer I kept looking the harder it got. I found it rather disturbing. And for some strange reason I wanted to get them all right. I was looking for cognitive hints (words etc) and also going on 'gut' response. After a bit the 'gut' response gave up.

When will you fill us in on the 'true' fakes and the 'true' m stuff?

Cheers

Peter Howie

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:07:35 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Not bad at all...
Message:
You scored 4.

Hi Pete. If you (or any fully cult-disgruntleed/certified ex-stupid person) wants to know the answers right now email me at the usual...

Pete: you came joint second. That's pretty good.

All best and stuff.. Nige

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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 03:44:53 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Professor Nigel please.....
Message:
Um, perfessor Nigel, sir, I hafta go to the bathroom...my brain is full, can I be excused????
(;
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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 20:09:17 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Nige
Subject: Would you score mine, please?
Message:
Can I try the test?

Passage #1 - Maharaji - 70s

Passage #2 - Fake

Passage #3 - Fake

Passage #4 - Maharaji - 90s

Passage #5 - Maharaji - early 90s

Passage #6 - Maharaji - early 90s

Passage #7 - Maharaji - 70s

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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 23:44:32 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Gail
Subject: Yes, of course I would, and will do so right now..
Message:
You scored 1. Seriously, I'm sorry..Shit! This is interesting..

Gail, it's great to see you back on the forum. How ya doin?

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 14:10:03 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Yes, of course I would, and will do so right now..
Message:
Hi there. Geez, this test of yours just goes to show that it was all total BS, eh?

I'm doing fine, and you?

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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 22:11:35 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Gail
Message:
Dear Gail,
Is this the Gail who visited me last year for her b-day?! If so, how the hell have you been girl?! If not, hi. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 14:29:24 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Gail
Message:
Hi Robyn:

It is one and the same. How are you doing? I am OK.

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 18:17:40 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Gail
Message:
Dear Gail,
Glad your ok, I'm not but I'm working on it.
Also glad your here at this time. Some big shit going on with the RAT. I hope there is some pied piper among us to lead him to a drowning!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 17:15:59 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: READ THIS: how to keep in touch, just in case !!
Message:
We're now at war ! and let's not be too stupid.

The Lard's lawyers may very well cause some trouble to our favorite websites for a while.

I've just set this new page up, in case some of our favorite websites disappear for a while, or if they have to move from one location to another.

New Ex-Premies Information Page

Bookmark that page, just in case, we'll post there new links if needed. Keep in touch !!!

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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 21:26:25 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: READ THIS: how to keep in touch, just in case !!
Message:
Dear JM and all,
Thanks JM, got it bookmarked. I don't have the time to offer any help here, my life is taking all of my attention right now but I do want to tell you all that you have my support, BIG TIME! I may not be so into the on topic stuff but I know how important it is and how much all these sites have helped so many people.
I am really so very proud of all of you and when things settle in my life, and I hope this is all over and to our benifit by then, I will do whatever is asked of me.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 19:59:28 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Good idea. Here's another (just a joke)
Message:
Good idea, J-M. If they manage to get EPO taken down we have to resort to grass roots communication. In the meantime, Maharaji could make his move and thousands of innocent lives could be lost as he swallows up their souls and their bank accounts.

The final meeting plan if it really gets bad is to meet outside of Dr. Frankenstein's castle on some dark and dreary night and we'll storm the place.

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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 21:23:13 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Won't reveal our war plans, but DON'T WORRY!!!!
Message:
EV and the Lord of the Universe have already lost ........

I'm just out of our last meeting with Anth ...... can't tell more !

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 21:00:24 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Anth ? What about that special 'carpet' ?
Message:
That one in 3 parts .......

Guess what we're going to do with that one? You'll all be delighted .....

Be patient!!

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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 21:53:21 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Won't reveal our war plans, but DON'T WORRY!!!!
Message:
Yes, and I understand the South American division has just had a strategy meeting, which was very successful. East Asia, Eurasia, and Oceania are having their planning meetings this evening. Communication will be relayed back only on secure lines. Jai Satchitanand.
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 00:14:48 (GMT)
From: Donavon eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Joe
Subject: The Atlantis contingent is digging in now (nt)
Message:
way down below the ocean
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 15:21:01 (GMT)
From: blood
Email: None
To: Donavon eDrek
Subject: encryption of South American Strategic Planning
Message:
ӥjBkB5Ea•–\
^–<@n&#402;00&#353;h'j.ҁP\#q|:ry 93(B
++?   ﺧov!ga…Ͼ4C&#710;|lKB    ! 1AQ0@a ?„–77xH™…“{جxfæN&XVk’0N&#710;7t7lCu!&#732;‚yTp‰F)’/    ! 01A@Qa ?(+6‹2*A&#732;™•Y…'JE!(™xx(U%
s3…ALAn(&#402;a^ (  ! 1AQaq0‘@P`  ? … \J$- …2~]+˽Na&#353;S&#732; rb‚ n‡&#376;
'kI0–H;f4^i+-‚os0 q!H]‚  㴬Gf
E}‰1&#710;rW&#376;$Nz”‘;M^ch!r&#352;&#352;t*''jt&#339;1({ײUF![-}UB@6zDyl 9zQTh>T&#352;U&#732;58+<;“ Q•%D@A9&#376;'&#402;,‚8GmB‹–k^kͻQ‘xX;YfJrn
2n&#376;٬=,—)9¡jЀ'P—xR]&#352;5=`ѵ
[o ,H@–O(YeO: /
Zh‰&#353;$

A;/$%\m Bsct@IL5Ԟ… αu&#352;*)/
&#732;$b@*m
‡Kh&#352;
8.}aq%dPMVPdvp &#402;&a~!†:%…t1‡r&†
‘g\вݧ+ >MA’B{R
N |5z:W”]–reayeEbH&#338;i,t#>u&#338;b”‹Þ$‘H‚Y4ˁ 2%‘# b?–:x Wk`֥† ’85.ME…!„n
@ U w`&#732;߽[n‰n Ȁ‰•5„[#L~–…2p&#710;C‚7•s>dF‘ĥbTDI`tA9 (@R_Xܐ5A-“/2X˯)•Da2kn&#402;K5q„&#710;–QF 0+&#339;G’<‘qܞ;&#402;D‘ǯ
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 21:22:58 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: blood
Subject: encryption of South American Strategic Planning
Message:
I can translate! ROFL!!!!

Very funny!!

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 17:15:12 (GMT)
From: Code 9
Email: None
To: blood
Subject: Got it, thank you. Over....
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 18:42:48 (GMT)
From: Liutenant Zelda C Crebs
Email: None
To: Code 9
Subject: Error code:Procedure #9 Cuppachino Not Expresso
Message:
We find aspirants intimidated by peole who order Expresso.
Gives the impression of us being poised to play hard ball against M.
As many of the are being brought in by premeis, we avoid making that impression.

These aspirants are soft and pliable in thier aspirant mode so wejust order Cuppachino maybe two.

If they are herb tea drinkers we order Latte.

Encrypted version on way by secured email.

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 21:30:16 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Liutenant Zelda C Crebs
Subject: Comrade Zelda - a question?
Message:
I just have to ask - because of something in your posts. Do the words 'Burning River' mean anything to you?
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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 01:55:00 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Comrade Zelda - a question?
Message:
Katie
No
unless it has slipped my frame of reference temporarily.
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Date: Sat, May 27, 2000 at 03:14:15 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Comrade Zelda - a question?
Message:
OK -
Cuppachino's was a coffee place in Cleveland that Brian and I used to go to when we lived there (we exited the place last November, just in time for winter!). Just wanted to know if you were a Clevelander - and if so you'd probably know the term 'Burning River' (nickname for the Cuyahoga River - the first thing I wanted to see when I moved to Cleveland!).

BTW, Brian always ordered an 'Americano' (two shots of expresso in hot water). I'm more of a 'whatever the coffee of the day is' person.

Hail to the Cuppachino Brigade!

Comrade Katie

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 18:22:06 (GMT)
From: blood
Email: None
To: Code 9
Subject: mirror decipher key uncompressed networkwide nt
Message:
blank
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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 17:29:59 (GMT)
From: blood
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: BOOKMARKED great strategy (nt)
Message:
no text
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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 16:34:16 (GMT)
From: Ged
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Ex-Lords Lawyers
Message:
http://www.milbank.com/01_main.html

Above is the website for Maharahjis V.expensive lawyers, anyone wishing to express their feelings with regards to M's new strategy of trying to shut down websites that contradict his view of his own history can excercise their right to protest by using the contact page on this site to inform the practice of your views. I should state though that if a lot of you should send emails then you run the risk of interfering with the companys day to day running of expensive clients so please use your discretion!
Also if any premies reading this wish also to contact Maharaji through his lawyers ( I guess that is one of the services they provide) feel free to express your devotion to M by entitling your email ' I love you' I am convinced the sentiment will cause great emotion.

Ged , just trying to help

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Date: Thurs, May 25, 2000 at 16:40:59 (GMT)
From: ged
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: The Ex-Lords Lawyers- the best name
Message:
just to clarify that the best person to deal with this matter is probably jbarist@milbank.com from the Litigation & Arbitration dept . I tell you this so that all your mail goes t the same dept and is not lost ,of course.
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:03:06 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: ged
Subject: The Ex-Lords Lawyers- the best name
Message:
Dear Sir,
I am writing from London simply to express my feelings about your actions over the following matter.

In short, I gather that your firm have undertaken to 'silence' various websites (that grew up recently to present their views about your client Maharaji / Elan Vital) by claiming that they violate certain copyrights.

I personally spent several years in Maharaji's so-called 'ashrams' (houses of renunciation) in my youth, and from what I read at some of those websites, whose hosts you have successfully intimidated, it was clear that they were engaged primarily in publishing factual information (largely historical) about this organisation - rather than lies. Some of the material may indeed be rather cruelly lampooning a once revered 'guru', but this would not appear to have amounted to libel in itself.

Although your actions are supposed to have served to remove some (probably very few, if any) instances of copyright breach, you have also effectively swept away in the process some important and truthful information that any informed person would concur, may quite legally have remained in the public domain.

Even if there were some breaches of copyright to address, your aggressive suppression of these sites is undoubtedly going to add strength to those website's causes, and moreover will almost certainly eventually reflect rather poorly upon your client, who by these current actions, may possibly be judged as having something to hide.

I do however appreciate that, from your firm's perspective, the growing need for a client to spend money keeping such opponents at bay, may represent good business for you.

I felt compelled to comment since I thought those websites were generally a healthy social development, especially as they provoked some serious thought about Maharaji's teachings and served to inform the public of the other side of the coin, as it were. It is my opinion that it is highly appropriate that the public are thus informed about the history of this, or any other similar movement, and moreover have the opportunity to hear the experiences of those people who have been involved, however controversial. Consider that by the very nature of movements such as this, followers tend to be encouraged to suppress doubts and can end up committing themselves more deeply than they possibly would have done had they been better informed from the outset. This can obviously lead to serious regret later.

These websites that you have suppressed were unfortunately the only public resources for people who wished to educate themselves on the history of this particular movement.

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 04:37:45 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Anon
Subject: I'm going to steal your letter!
Message:
Anon,

I'm in the process of writing a letter of response to my ISP in regards to their capitulation to the demands of Maharaji through his expensive legal army of Milbank, Tweed, & Hadley.

No, people I'm not telegraphing them my plan. As lawyers attempting to use the DMCA they damn well ought to know what the standard response is going to be.

Anon, iff you don't mind I'm going to borrow a bit of your post to allow me to state my case in my next step of the battle.

Thanks in Advance - I know that you won't object

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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:12:05 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Fabulous post!!! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:19:00 (GMT)
From: blood
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: ditto (nt)
Message:
no text
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Date: Fri, May 26, 2000 at 12:23:15 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Great letter, Anon!
Message:
I think the word 'movement' could be substituted with 'cult',
though.
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