la-ex -:- 'awakenings' -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 04:44:20 (GMT)

__ cq -:- Why does he keep saying how precious life is? -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:16:54 (GMT)

__ __ sam -:- Why does he keep saying how precious life is? -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:27:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ bb -:- Why does he keep saying how precious life is? -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 06:47:52 (GMT)

__ __ Daneane -:- Yeah! Esp. since I'M the 1 who gave it to u!(nt) -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:30:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- Mom? That you mom? -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 17:16:08 (GMT)

__ Loaf -:- Yippee -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 06:35:35 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- 'awakenings' -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 04:45:38 (GMT)

__ __ Zelda -:- the eyes of a goat -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 06:10:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- religious experience -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 23:41:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- What is this? Ex Ghost Story time? -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:53:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- What is this? Ex Ghost Story time? -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:11:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Thats right Jim -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:42:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's right, Zelda -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 01:19:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zeldz -:- That's right, Zelda -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 02:12:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, that's way over the top (IMHO) -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 02:54:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- No, that's way over the top (IMHO) -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 03:30:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ Monmot -:- the eyes of a goat -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 06:27:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Zelda -:- the eyes of a goat -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 08:49:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- An 'Ah HA' experience...... -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 21:49:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Joe, you reminded me of -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 12:02:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ A.P. -:- for Joe -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 11:44:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- A retrospective experience -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 01:36:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ dv -:- I remember that meeting. -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 01:12:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- cool story joe -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 22:59:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- cool story joe -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 23:37:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- the eyes of a goat......creepy -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:21:47 (GMT)

__ __ Monmot -:- Moi aussi (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 04:56:02 (GMT)

Rob -:- A pleasant diversion (OT) -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 03:41:12 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- Okay, it is a good one -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 04:22:33 (GMT)

__ __ Rob -:- Okay, it is a good one -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 04:26:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ Susan -:- nah...I don't put you under Jeckyll and Hyde -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 04:45:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Rob -:- dead what? -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 05:12:49 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- I haven't read it yet -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 04:13:57 (GMT)

__ __ Selene -:- I tried to read it -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 04:45:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ Susan -:- it's a shame the pictures are really cute (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 04:46:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Selene -:- oh well it's the price you pay for speed -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 04:50:49 (GMT)

__ Rob -:- For example..... -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 03:46:29 (GMT)

__ __ gErRy -:- Rob, that was hilarious/ cartoons are great nt -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:07:24 (GMT)

Jim -:- Uh oh, the Stepford Wives are recruiting again! -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 01:24:08 (GMT)

__ Lotus Eater -:- Uh oh, the Stepford Wives are recruiting again! -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 00:07:28 (GMT)

__ gErRy -:- Now that was downright scary, Jim, cut it out. nt -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 02:38:11 (GMT)

GED -:- Maharajis Revenge -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 23:49:28 (GMT)

__ Daneane -:- Maharajis Revenge -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 18:15:18 (GMT)

__ __ GED -:- MY REVENGE ONMaharajis Revenge -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 11:25:02 (GMT)

__ Powerman -:- Maharajis Revenge -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 05:09:18 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Maharajis Revenge -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 04:08:42 (GMT)

Keith -:- no regrets -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 22:35:39 (GMT)

__ cq -:- even when seeing others getting stuck with M? (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 17:50:57 (GMT)

__ Elaine -:- no regrets -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:14:08 (GMT)

__ __ Keith -:- no regrets -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 18:51:29 (GMT)

__ Harry -:- no regrets -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 09:43:16 (GMT)

__ __ Harry -:- Ps -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 10:05:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ Keith -:- Ps -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 18:49:08 (GMT)

__ sam -:- no regrets -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 03:09:21 (GMT)

__ __ Keith -:- no regrets -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:01:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- 'simple philosophical truths' ??? Which ones? -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:13:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Keith -:- 'simple philosophical truths' ??? Which ones? -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:31:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- That's two so far. Bet you can't find more than 12 -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 17:13:41 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- New age bloopy doopy -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 00:49:55 (GMT)

__ __ Steve -:- Don't worry Keith -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 16:40:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ Keith -:- Don't worry Keith -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:05:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- But what about Stuart Smalley? -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 01:26:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Steve -:- But what about Stuart Smalley? -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 13:40:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Do you speak english, by chance? -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 13:54:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve -:- Can you spell English, by chance? -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 18:26:35 (GMT)

__ __ gErRy -:- My favorite part -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 02:53:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ Keith -:- My favorite part -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:08:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ Harry -:- My favorite part -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 08:57:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ gerry -:- My favorite part -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:36:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ harry -:- My favorite part -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 00:28:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- My favorite part -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 15:36:26 (GMT)

__ Jerry -:- regrets -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 23:22:24 (GMT)

__ __ Keith -:- regrets -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:14:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jerry -:- regrets -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 01:05:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Keith -:- regrets -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 03:26:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- regrets -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 16:55:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- regrets -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 19:12:12 (GMT)

__ __ Keith -:- regrets and no regrets. -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 06:27:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- You're a fucking idiot is what you are -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:36:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Harry -:- You're a fucking idiot is what you are -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 03:07:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- You're a fucking idiot is what you are -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 03:30:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- You're a fucking idiot is what you are -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 04:10:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- Promise not to tell -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 04:20:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Promise not to tell -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 18:42:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ keith -:- Promise not to tell -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 19:05:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Promise not to tell -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 20:56:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- Promise not to tell -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 22:26:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Keith -:- I know who I am but who are you? -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:33:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- ps -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:35:45 (GMT)

__ __ Zelda -:- regret as a verb? -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 06:22:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ Keith -:- regret as a verb? -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:26:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ Keith -:- regret as a verb? -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 06:31:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Zelda -:- regret as a verb? -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 08:52:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- To Keith: regret vs disappointment -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:33:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- To Keith: regret vs disappointment -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 18:43:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Back to Keith -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:46:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Nonsense, Way -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:44:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Re:nonsense -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 16:09:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No way, Way -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 01:13:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Re:No way, Way -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 14:11:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- Re:No way, Way -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 19:15:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Well, kinda, I guess -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 15:31:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- Well, kinda, I guess -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 19:21:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Three perspectives -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 22:55:30 (GMT)

Joey -:- Steve Hassan meets John Travolta -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 21:27:49 (GMT)

__ jondon -:- Recent interview with Travolta... -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 11:31:17 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- just read in some weekly mag -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 03:10:01 (GMT)

__ __ Monmot -:- just read in some weekly mag -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 03:20:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- makes you wish they WOULD sue -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 03:43:04 (GMT)

__ Zelda -:- Steve Hassan -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 05:55:34 (GMT)

Joe -:- Maharaji's commandment not to think....... -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 21:11:56 (GMT)

__ Helen -:- Ya gotta revise it to stomach it -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 21:35:07 (GMT)

__ __ Daneane -:- I doubt it -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 18:28:47 (GMT)

jondon -:- Talked to Howie Carr today -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:00:37 (GMT)

__ Elaine -:- Also FYI -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:14:32 (GMT)

__ __ Elaine -:- 120 in LA - 9 am today ( nt -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:15:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ Way -:- 120 in LA - 9 am today ( nt -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 17:17:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Daneane -:- I'm just glad its not 121.(nt) -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 18:52:57 (GMT)

Gail -:- Why is MJ holding a programming on Father's Day? -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:21:40 (GMT)

__ Robyn -:- Why is MJ holding a programming on Father's Day? -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 22:36:22 (GMT)

__ __ Gail -:- Why is MJ holding a programming on Father's Day? -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 18:24:07 (GMT)

__ cq -:- What are the odds they'll marry non-premies!? (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:28:01 (GMT)

__ __ Gail -:- What are the odds they'll marry non-premies!? (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:37:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- Perhaps I should have said 'eventually'? ;) -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:01:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Susan -:- speculation.....I heard the guru -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 21:48:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Gail -:- Why the Pride? He doesn't even have a grade-8 -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 13:45:59 (GMT)

G -:- Scientists break speed of light? -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 17:50:04 (GMT)

__ Nigel -:- And Scientologists bend the laws of Nature... -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 17:06:04 (GMT)

__ __ G -:- I didn't say it was verified -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 18:11:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ Nigel -:- I never said you did... -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 12:23:05 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Boy, doesn't that just open the floodgates? -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:48:57 (GMT)

__ __ G -:- No, it doesn't -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 00:54:38 (GMT)

__ AJW -:- Will they have to pay for it? (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 08:03:54 (GMT)

__ __ G -:- I think they'll be fined. -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 00:59:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jerry -:- I think they'll be fined. -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 01:41:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ G -:- good one -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 02:08:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- They understood the questions -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 02:37:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- the questions -:- Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 17:00:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- the questions -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 01:30:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- the questions -:- Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 02:48:02 (GMT)

__ Mili -:- Scientists break speed of light? -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:12:06 (GMT)

CHR -:- Maharaji's assets -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 07:27:01 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Maharaji's assets -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 16:47:16 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- He's not that wealthy!! -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 16:59:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- I Think He's VERY wealthy -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 17:07:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- I Think He's VERY wealthy -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 22:42:01 (GMT)

__ Denver ex -:- Maharaji's assets -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 11:17:07 (GMT)

sam -:- the last breath -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 03:19:38 (GMT)

__ Gail -:- the last breath -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:32:20 (GMT)

__ Monmot -:- Dash Between Two Dates -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 07:08:13 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- I always knew that -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 06:40:23 (GMT)

__ __ Zelda -:- last breath -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 11:34:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ gerry -:- wow Zelda! Could you elaborate? -:- Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 14:07:38 (GMT)

Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 04:44:20 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Everyone Subject: 'awakenings' Message:

Just wanted to know if anyone else thinks this section would be worth doing, or is difficult to do,or whatever. In 'awakenings' or 'realizations' or whatever,you could describe in a few sentences or paragraphs the things that finally made you wonder about this whole thing, to question it, to see through it, or whatever. What was it that finally made you wake up and see it for what it was? These insights would probably resonate with many first time posters or passers-thru,and might stimulate some thoughts about the cult.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:16:54 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Why does he keep saying how precious life is? Message:

Why does he keep saying how precious life is? - As if he was the one who gave it to us?

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:27:07 (GMT) From: sam Email: - To: cq Subject: Why does he keep saying how precious life is? Message:

and when he talks about the las breath- He makes it sound like he's giving that too

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 06:47:52 (GMT) From: bb Email: None To: sam Subject: Why does he keep saying how precious life is? Message:

In january 2000 the in touch mailing had a quote that read..... 'the breath is my gift to you' He is still pushing the lie.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:30:46 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: cq Subject: Yeah! Esp. since I'M the 1 who gave it to u!(nt) Message:

Me, memememememememem

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 17:16:08 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Daneane Subject: Mom? That you mom? Message:

Mom? That you mom? (thinks - they don't usually mess about at the crematorium)

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 06:35:35 (GMT) From: Loaf Email: loafji@yahoo.com To: la-ex Subject: Yippee Message:

Yep - I like this muchly.It is enough to draw the attention to the points of awakening in order to demonstrate and confer 'permission' for the same process in another. Its a bit like a confused and closeted youngster seeing their first gay kiss. A very simple and lovely idea LA. Loaf

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 04:45:38 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: la-ex Subject: 'awakenings' Message:

I like the idea.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 06:10:17 (GMT) From: Zelda Email: None To: Susan Subject: the eyes of a goat Message:

I like it too. One suggestion, every so often someone starts a thread that is so important to aspirants or fence line premies, that it should reappear regularly IMO. So if you get a thread going with the 'awakenings' I would like to see it be saved and rethreaded every few days, depending on what is going on. This happened last month I think, with signs of co dependance. It was a real valuable check list and needs to reappear. But I am not able to find it in the archives. I think we get quite wrapped up with talking among ourselves and doing propagation that we can loose site of the fact that aspirants are luking and would benefit from some entry level feedback. For me I got the bends when I went to hear about the new way of doing things and say Maraji leave the stage during every technique during the knowledge session. Then I got nauseaus when he spoke about keep in touch and gratitude. Then after the program there were blissful grins and donations going on. And I looked into the eyes of an intiator and he did not have any pupils and seemed evil. I was totally unprepared for what I saw in his eyes. It was a facial expression of affectated centeredness at the same time as his eyes were that of a goat. Zelda

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 23:41:56 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: Zelda Subject: religious experience Message:

Dear Zelda, has it occurred to you that by conferring upon Maharaji and his minions such satanic powers, you increase his psychological hold on you? IMO, it really is okay, and goats are just goats, so are messiahs! Lotus eater

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:53:11 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Zelda Subject: What is this? Ex Ghost Story time? Message:

And I looked into the eyes of an intiator and he did not have any pupils and seemed evil. I was totally unprepared for what I saw in his eyes. It was a facial expression of affectated centeredness at the same time as his eyes were that of a goat. Bullshit, Zelda.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:11:16 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Jim Subject: What is this? Ex Ghost Story time? Message:

Is it so impossible, Jim, that M might have attracted followers of the 'left-hand path' to him? After all, he pretended to be God incarnate. Is there a bigger lie he could have told?

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:42:15 (GMT) From: Zelda Email: Jim To: cq Subject: Thats right Jim Message:

It is bullshit. Go back to what you were doing. There is no such thing as all that stuff.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 01:19:47 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Zelda Subject: That's right, Zelda Message:

You actually believe this shit? Honestly? Too much. So who was this demonic instructor (if you're not afraid of him flying into your window tonight or something)?

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 02:12:32 (GMT) From: Zeldz Email: None To: Jim Subject: That's right, Zelda Message:

Jim It would have been nice to hear you say something like, 'Hell Zelda that is as far away from my reality as imaginable. Please explain what you are saying. What is you experience Zelda dear because I cannot even respect that whole frame of reference.' Anyway I dont know the intiators name but it also happened with David whats his face. It is not that hard to understand that those guys are brainwashed to the point that they have no human emotion left and it shows in their eyes if you know what you are looking for. In fact it is not as simple as having no human emotion-- they also have replaced human feeling with you know what and one would have to be blind not to see it in the eyes. But the first time I was not looking for anything at all in fact I was into the Guru pretty much. But after the first time- When I was looking at their eyes with the previous experience in mind they looked down or away. With out alot of hocus pocus, surely you know that criminal eyes CAN reflect something inhuman in certain cases. These guys are criminals to human rights, life, and most of all freedom. They are 'occupied' by Marajis rot. I dont see what is so far fetched. I am not trying for a Blair slant here Jim. To me it is a fact. Zelda

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 02:54:59 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Zeldz Subject: No, that's way over the top (IMHO) Message:

Zelda, I hate the cult as much as the next guy but I really can't go along with this human vampire thing. Even the infamous David Smith is just another bureaucratic cult weenie. I'm sure he let's his hair down a few milimetres once in a while. But then, maybe you've got lots of these 'experiences'. Hell, what do I know? I only live here.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 03:30:53 (GMT) From: Zelda Email: None To: Jim Subject: No, that's way over the top (IMHO) Message:

Jim I think you watch too much tv. Goats eyes are flat and pupilless. They do not register cognition. But its ok with me if you think the effects of brainwashing make these clones just not nice suits. And I have never in all my born days seen anything like that before. And I have seen some extremely gone sorts. What I say about this is based on a premis that you dont subscribe to and I understand that. We cant all look out of the same fish bowl. Nice to have a civil conversation Zelda

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 06:27:27 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Zelda Subject: the eyes of a goat Message:

Jeezus, Zelda, that's intense, and very well put. I've had a couple of those in my life, and they're real eye openers (pun kind of intended). A good friend of mine was waiting in line once when a group of initiators and bigwigs walked by and she experienced what you described. That was her awakening. She never went back.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 08:49:21 (GMT) From: Zelda Email: None To: Monmot Subject: the eyes of a goat Message:

Hi Mommot. I have not heard of someone else seeing that. I also tried to look in Charanands eyes. He was one that I felt good about in the old days- sort of friendly and warm. Same thing. But he tried to shield his eyes. I dont think it is a good idea to talk about this too much, but it is what we are dealing with as far as I am concerned. I am glad you friend had the eyes to see and the legs to run. Pemeis I know that are from the old days are similar. Take care Zelda

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 21:49:57 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Zelda Subject: An 'Ah HA' experience...... Message:

I don't have anything as spooky as initiators with eyes of barnyard animals, but there is one event that made me see Maharaji differently, but I'm not sure why. It was in 1980, during a 'festival' in Miami, and the Miami satsang hall (which was in a very old, cavernous, decrepit, church on Biscayne Boulevard) was being used for the ashram meeting with Maharaji, when all the ashram premies got to feel special, and during which Maharaji scared the shit out of us saying awful things would happen to us if we ever moved out of his spiritual slave system. Anyhow, I was coordinator in Miami at the time, and we had one of those ridiculous 'chairs' on the stage. As many of you remember, we all used to bow down to empty chairs all over the world. Anyhow our chair was broken. It kind of wobbled. But, of course, a premie could NOT ever sit in the chair, even to test it for the divine tush. So, we didn't. When Marino arrived, someone explained the situation, but he did nothing and M came out and sat in the chair. Well, the chair pitched forward and nearly flung the Superior Power in Person into the audience, to the gasps of the ever-so-surrendered premies. I think it was the look on his face that did it. Terror, fear, confusion, totally NOT centered. Somehow I saw what a faker he was. That this was all just a show for him, and the broken chair gave a glimpse of the man behind the curtain. DRIP. I also remembered how CONTROLLED everything had to be whenever Maharaji came to an event. He was obsessive about wanting to know what was going to happen every SECOND, so he never felt off guard. I think I saw why he did that. It was all a show. We had another chair, which was whisked onto the stage and he began his ashram discourse. But I had seen something I couldn't forget. The genie was out of the bottle.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 12:02:12 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Joe and PAM Subject: Joe, you reminded me of Message:

when I lived in the Palace of Peace (London UK) 1974. The Holy Chair belonging to Raja Ji and Rein Ji(Dharma Pal and Claudia) was on the stage. I sat on the chair and fell asleep to be awoken some time later by one of 'His' first PAMs telling me what a sin I have committed. I also used to pinch(steal) food from the prasad tray to feed the poor. That was also deemed a sin. Thanks for the memory :>) Regards Jethro PS to the PAM I am referring to above: I am desperately trying not to mention your name on this forum, particularly because you told me last year that your could take on the people here with intelligent argument and I know you can speak up for yourself. Since you were one of the people who filled me with stories of maharaji during my first months. Alot of what I have to say is based on what you have told me, so sooner or later I will have to quote my sources. As you may or may not understand I have sacrificed more than friendship in order to escape the cult, I have had to start from more than scratch.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 11:44:00 (GMT) From: A.P. Email: antiprem@aol.com To: Joe Subject: for Joe Message:

Joe, Maybe you could e-mail me. As you probably know, I am in Miami and it would be interesting to see if we knew some of the same people. I couldn't find your email anywhere on the active index.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 01:36:00 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Joe Subject: A retrospective experience Message:

I had a lot of clues that added up. One was a situation where I saw Maharaji pissed off because no one opened the door for him (it might have just been a slight delay in opening the door). He wasn't very overt about being pissed off, but I could tell. I've seen that happen other times, him seeming pissed off but not showing it, he just looked at who he was pissed at with this passive/aggressive look. This happened in '76 when arti was played fast with a beat. What happened with the door 'incident' was that everyone was talking about who would do what when he came though and while that was going on, he came though. At the time I had a double reaction, it was added to my doubt pile, but I rationalized it by thinking that it was him showing us how spaced out we were. There was this attitude that everything had to be 'just right' and that premies were always fucking up, never living up to his perfectionistic demands. I think he may be obsessive/compulsive.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 01:12:33 (GMT) From: dv Email: None To: Joe Subject: I remember that meeting. Message:

M said if you left and thought you could come back two years later, well, forget it! I added that fat one to my chains of fear and dragged it around for a couple years.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 22:59:35 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: Joe Subject: cool story joe Message:

I'd think most people would have reacted with humor about it, I mean, so long as no one was hurt. Reminded me of that scene from 'Arthur' when he fell out the car.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 23:37:05 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Daneane Subject: cool story joe Message:

Are you kidding? No premie would DARE laugh at the Lord's near mishap.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:21:47 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Zelda Subject: the eyes of a goat......creepy Message:

reminds me of Rosemary's baby

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 04:56:02 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Susan Subject: Moi aussi (nt) Message:

certainement

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 03:41:12 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Everyone Subject: A pleasant diversion (OT) Message:

Check out the Flame Warriors - Chatroom Stereotypes pages of the official Flash site. Very funny stuff: http://www.flashkit.com/board/warriors/index.shtml See how many stereotypes you can match with posters here (premie or ex). Hours of fun. Prizes offered. OK you can do me first, I guess. Or just ignore me, as usual.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 04:22:33 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Rob Subject: Okay, it is a good one Message:

but the first one to call me innocence abused I am going to sick big dog Jim on. Or, I'll get my sisters to protect me. The cartoons are really great. It is worth a look. Rob, who ARE you?

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 04:26:27 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Susan Subject: Okay, it is a good one Message:

Probably Jeckle & Hyde! Or did you mean, WHO are you? Well, I'm Rob. Who are you? Susan? OK, now we're equally clueless about one another! Have a good one.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 04:45:00 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Rob Subject: nah...I don't put you under Jeckyll and Hyde Message:

though, we have SEVERAL of those. I always attribute meeting Mr. Hyde to a lapse in prescription medication. Rob, even though you too are a net phenomenon, (recall the person on the mommy board who pretended to have the dead quadruplets ) the 'imposter ' I suppose is what they would call you, how did they miss that? Also, I don't think your hoax was on the scale of evil like the quad lady ( who turned out to be a man ), but I still am dubious of Rob posts.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 05:12:49 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Susan Subject: dead what? Message:

Thankfully I missed seeing that particular gem, but I'm glad you don't consider me 'evil'. Imposter? Oh the anonymity issue again. I'd rather not be blamed for refrying that particular can of beans, thanks all the same, so I'll pass.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 04:13:57 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Rob Subject: I haven't read it yet Message:

but are you there? The chameleon?

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 04:45:31 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: all Subject: I tried to read it Message:

I clicked on everything and got no response. OH!! Is it all that stuff I forgot to turn off?? silly me. anyway. a princess warrior I am so there. But i am sort of sorry I could not get in. I'd hazard a guess. I'd be ..... Selene!! bratty iconoclast. changing sides when necessary. but taking a stand always. so there again. And let us not forget why I came here. TO GET HELP LEAVING MAHARAJI thank you very much.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 04:46:45 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Selene Subject: it's a shame the pictures are really cute (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 04:50:49 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Susan Subject: oh well it's the price you pay for speed Message:

but I always liked speed. Rob is fun.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 03:46:29 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Rob Subject: For example..... Message:

'Tireless Rebutter For Tireless Rebutter there is no such thing as a trivial dispute. He regards all challenges as if the barbarians were battering at the gates. His unflagging tenacity in making his points numbs and eventually wears down the opposition. Confident that his arguments are sound, Tireless Rebutter can't understand why he is universally loathed. ' Now who could that possibly describe? Hmmmmm. http://www.flashkit.com/board/warriors/index.shtml

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:07:24 (GMT) From: gErRy Email: None To: Rob Subject: Rob, that was hilarious/ cartoons are great nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 01:24:08 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Uh oh, the Stepford Wives are recruiting again! Message:

Latest entries from two of my favorite goons on ELK: 1) Janice Wilson A wonderful letter From Baldwinsville, New York About six months ago I sent an introductory audio tape, the NY public event, to a cousin of mine, on a hunch, an intuition, a feeling to do so. I haven't seen her for several years. Having heard nothing from her for many months, I thought maybe the tape had been cast aside. Last week I received a wonderful letter. She was very happy to hear from me, and had listened to the tape several times! Wonders never cease. But why should I be surprised, this is good stuff, and I we all, know it. I plan to send a magazine of Maharaji's talks next and accept her invitation to visit her over the summer. ************ 2) Ivete Belfort Mattos A dad with Knowledge? From Sao Paolo, Brazil Once I invited my father to come to an event, but he did not go there. Since then I have repeated the invitation several times. Finally, this week he went. And I realized that I was his daughter with the answer he needed. This is some of what he said: 'Were these video events always so full of people?' ..................... 'I enjoyed it.' ............................. 'I want this Knowledge. ' ............................... 'How can I proceed to receive it?' .......................... 'But, am I not too old for it?' ..................... 'Are these tapes only in English?.' ....................... 'Give me them all.' ...................... He was happy when he left.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 00:07:28 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: Jim Subject: Uh oh, the Stepford Wives are recruiting again! Message:

Dear jim, I was most concerned after M's last visit here, in which he talked about the premies in the communities being now at the top of his totem pole, instead of the instructors. As far as I can see, though, since then premies haven't been proselytising, or doing much of anything. In my local area, it seems that the 'team' is more disintegrating than getting 'inspired', plus the financial requirements for the satellite broadcasts are way, way out of the realms of possibility. LE

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 02:38:11 (GMT) From: gErRy Email: None To: Jim Subject: Now that was downright scary, Jim, cut it out. nt Message:

goddam

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 23:49:28 (GMT) From: GED Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Maharajis Revenge Message:

I knew I should never have rejected my lord of the universe. I fell and broke my foot in 2 places! And of course as he told us on many occasions there is no such thing as coincidence. ( could I sue for telepathic assualt?) and he did warn us that we would break into a million pieces . Oh well , 2 down only 999,998 to go ! Ged the uninsureable

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 18:15:18 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: GED Subject: Maharajis Revenge Message:

I'd take it as a sign of a good solid break up.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 11:25:02 (GMT) From: GED Email: None To: Daneane Subject: MY REVENGE ONMaharajis Revenge Message:

Ha ha ha , the ex-lord of the universe has at least answered one of lifes most perplexing questions.;What to do with all the unmatched socks that come out of my washing machine! NOw I can afford to change my sock every day!!!!!!!!!! Ged the uni-pede

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 05:09:18 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: GED Subject: Maharajis Revenge Message:

Sorry to hear about your foot, GED. Actually, Richard Pryor had it right when he said that if God had intended to punished him, he would have burnt his dick off.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 04:08:42 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: GED Subject: Maharajis Revenge Message:

You think you got it bad, my dog threw up on my new pair of Ferragamos and my New York Times didn't get delivered today. I know it's karma and the rotting vegetables. After 17 years of not practicing knowledge it was bound to happen sooner or later.

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 22:35:39 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Everyone Subject: no regrets Message:

I do not have regrets about my involement with Maharaji. Or anything else. Because I realise I made choices. I chose, for better or worse, in ignorence or wisdom, what suited me at the time. And this is how I have learnt and grown. Yes I've done stupid things. But that was what I chose. That is my retrospective perspective. I can judge my past. Or I can just see it for what it was. And learn. And move on hopefully with a little more insight. I say this because I feel one is retarded by regret. Regret shows a lack of understanding about how we evolve. Human evolution seems most significant in the area of 'insight'.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 17:50:57 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Keith Subject: even when seeing others getting stuck with M? (nt) Message:

'No regrets' - even when seeing others getting stuck with M? (nt)

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:14:08 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Keith Subject: no regrets Message:

I don't usually use 'you' sentences ---but... You are a wise and evolving and growing person. I enjoy your posts. You are more articulate,though.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 18:51:29 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Elaine Subject: no regrets Message:

It feels good to be appreciated. Doesn't it? Thankyou. I feel the same about you that you have said about me. Takes one to know one !

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 09:43:16 (GMT) From: Harry Email: None To: Keith Subject: no regrets Message:

How's it going Keith? I'm going riding with Judd on Sunday and that should be fun:) He's my new coffee chum. Cya in the soup.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 10:05:13 (GMT) From: Harry Email: None To: Keith Subject: Ps Message:

Keith old buddy, how could you give away your computer?

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 18:49:08 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Harry Subject: Ps Message:

Well buddy o'buddy, I'm not sure how I've survived over a year without the computor. But thems the breaks when break-ups happen. Hope all is a1 with you and yours. Tell Judd hello from me.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 03:09:21 (GMT) From: sam Email: None To: Keith and all Subject: no regrets Message:

I have no regrets either but then I never lived in an ashram etc. I was reading Nigel's journey and he even said how he enjoyed K at time immensely. So did I and a lot of others and although I just cant believe in M anymore I still wonder where all that came from. I can see some was suggestion, some hype, some from just simply meditating- but I'm still in the process of sorting it out.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:01:54 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: sam Subject: no regrets Message:

I'm not so sure Sam that living in an ashram is the big difference. More just individual makeup. For me, I spent 16 years as a part of another guru's ashram ; not living in permanently but really being a part of ashram life consistently. I was one of a number of premies who were not one-eyed and gung ho about Maharaji and who rejected the 'one master' concept. What I have gained ; experienced and understood regarding what meditation is and is not has been invaluable. So as I have said elsewhere, I have and am still sifting the babies from the bathwater. That is a healthy non-extremist process. Maharaji has erred badly I feel in propogating this perfect master crap. That is the core of the rot for me. And the consequences of that are widespread indeed. But in terms of the simple philosophical truths he enunciated, I still can say, I benifited.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:13:54 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Keith Subject: 'simple philosophical truths' ??? Which ones? Message:

'simple philosophical truths' ??? Which ones? Care to elucidate?

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:31:20 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: cq Subject: 'simple philosophical truths' ??? Which ones? Message:

They abound. Life is a gift to be enjoyed. Simple philosophical truth. Each breath is so precious. Simple philosophical truth. We do not need a rhodes scholar to tell us these things. No? In the midst of all the hubble bubble of so called living is there not some fundamental value in being reminded of such 'simple philosophical truths'?

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 17:13:41 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Keith Subject: That's two so far. Bet you can't find more than 12 Message:

That's two so far. Bet you can't find more than 12. (and NO repetition!) You on?

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 00:49:55 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Keith Subject: New age bloopy doopy Message:

Creating our own reality again, are we, Keith? Cute. Listen, I've got ask you. You know that Saturday Night Live skit, 'Stuart Smalley' I think the character's called. The new age puffball in a cardigan sweater who keeps telling himself that he's 'okay' because he's able to look in the mirror and, well, tell himself that he's okay? What do you think about him? Do you think he's funny? Why?

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 16:40:05 (GMT) From: Steve Email: None To: Keith Subject: Don't worry Keith Message:

Don't worry Keith. Some people like to have other people create their reality. They let other people create their goals, values, behaviours, etc. That way they can avoid responsibility for what happens to them, and they can go through life as helpless victims, whining and pointing the finger. People like that really stink up the place.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:05:32 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Steve Subject: Don't worry Keith Message:

I guess a more open, compassionate and wise perspective shared on forums like this can hopefully help to modify the aura of the place. Lets wash away the stench. Scrub,scrub,scrub.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 01:26:01 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Keith Subject: But what about Stuart Smalley? Message:

Come on, Keith, why don't you answer the good ones? Have you seen the Saturday Night Live skit and do you think it's funny? If so, why?

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 13:40:59 (GMT) From: Steve Email: None To: Jim Subject: But what about Stuart Smalley? Message:

Some people like to have other people create their reality. They let other people create their goals, values, behaviours, etc. That way they can avoid responsibility for what happens to them, and they can go through life as helpless victims, whining and pointing the finger. People like that really stink up the place.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 13:54:04 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Steve Subject: Do you speak english, by chance? Message:

Affecting or controlling what you can in your life isn't 'creating reality' which is really just a mind-numbing new-age term for day-dreaming.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 18:26:35 (GMT) From: Steve Email: None To: Jim Subject: Can you spell English, by chance? Message:

nnnnnn

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 02:53:27 (GMT) From: gErRy Email: None To: Keith Subject: My favorite part Message:

Would have to be this: Human evolution seems most significant in the area of 'insight'. I was just cruising at you know, 10000 feet or so when I hit this turbulance and said, 'wow, you know, Kieth has a point there.' Patty said, 'if so it must be on 'is 'ead !!' tehe Hey guess what today I surfing the net and clicked on this link and lo and behold great balls'o'fire the author of that piece was little ole me! Quite a shock, first name and last. No, it had nothing to do with ex-premie but was at Sarga (?) guru rating service know what I mean? Harry has a new graphite bike he rides over on Anything Goes. Hope yer enjoying life.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:08:14 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: gErRy Subject: My favorite part Message:

Heady stuff GeRRy.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 08:57:26 (GMT) From: Harry Email: None To: gErRy Subject: My favorite part Message:

Hey Gerry, graphite is the lead in pencils, is a lubricant, but you sure as hell can't ride it. The bike's Carbon Fibre. BTW, I think graphite is a form of carbon too. Hope you're enjoying life too Sunshine.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:36:37 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Harry Subject: My favorite part Message:

Well Harry I use graphite 'rods' (rectangular, really) as non-adjustable stiffening rods in some of my smaller stringed musical instruments. They most certainly have 'body' to them, much more than pencil lead or lubricants. Also fishing poles are made of graphite so I don't think I'm that far off in my description. Harry you're an outdoors kind of guy. Have you noticed the 'chemtrail' phenomena talked about on the web? I really noticed it on Sunday, it was classical: low flying jets, 'contrails' that start and stop, X and tic tac toe patterns, greasy 'rainbow' around the sun, metallic taste, etc. etc. It's spooky. Something big is going on...

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 00:28:31 (GMT) From: harry Email: None To: gerry Subject: My favorite part Message:

Hey Gerry, how's the back? Cycling is good for your back ya know, as long as you don't fall off. Now you mention it, I have heard of graphite stuff on the market. I haven't heard of chemtrails before and I live here because we don't have jets and stuff, and the air tastes and smells great. That metallic taste you talked of is generally associated with chemicals. If I have to go down to the 'Big Smoke', it's really obvious how bad the air quality is. It really stinks and can't be good for you. I heard the other day that the air in people’s homes is up to 6 times more polluted than the air outside. It's crazy the things that get used in everyday life in the home. I saw a guy stick this white chem cream up his nose the other day to dissolve his nose hairs. What's the 'something big' you're talking of?

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 15:36:26 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: harry Subject: My favorite part Message:

The back's pretty good these days, Harry. I do need to get out on my bike more often. We have miles of trails behind us here in the Pacific Northwest. My backyard abuts a huge tree farm and the logging roads make for some great riding. And it's chuck full of critters: I've encountered bear, bob cat, coyotes, ubiquitous deer, all manner of hawks, eagles, so there's lots of company. Now the big deal about chemtrails: You got 'em in Oz and since your country's population is so small, I imagine they concentrate on the populous areas. This is way off topic and will probably draw the thought police so if you are interested, do a search on 'chemtrails' and check out www.rense.com for the most recent reports.

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 23:22:24 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Keith Subject: regrets Message:

Keith, Maharaji is about the biggest regret I have in my life. I feel he took me for a spin under the guise of being a master who could lead me to enlightenment. He's a fraud. I found no enlightenment through him, nor do I believe that is possible. It was a waste of time. If Maharaji thinks that he has this power to enlighten his 'students', he should take a closer look at them. They're all brain dead. Maybe that's the way he likes them. If they could actually think about what they're caught up in, the money would stop rolling in. And personally, it is my belief that is the only reason ANY guru came to the west, for the money. That certainly appears to be the only thing anyone has been gaining these past 30 years or so. Gurus are getting richer, and their disciples are just getting dumber and dumber.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:14:04 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Jerry Subject: regrets Message:

Sure. But have you heard the saying ; thank your enemies because you can learn the greatest lessons from them. Do you agree? Jerry, no-one walks into a brick wall unless they are not paying attention. So the brick wall helps to wake me up. I'm not a helpless victim. Never have been. And this gives me more control over my life and my self. Nothing needs to be seen as totally wasted. It's all manure that will help grow tomorrows vegies.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 01:05:59 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Keith Subject: regrets Message:

But have you heard the saying ; thank your enemies because you can learn the greatest lessons from them. Do you agree? I slaughter my enemies. Then I thank them when they're dead... No, just kidding. That's an interesting, positive way of looking at things. I guess it helps you to maintain your composure so you don't do anything rash that you'll later regret. But an enemy is still an enemy, and the objective is to, ultimately, destroy him. He wouldn't be an enemy if it wasn't, now, would he? I'm not into overdosing on positive thinking, Keith. I don't find it realistic. The rewards for it I find shallow because it's a facade for what's really brewing deeper. How do you REALLY feel about Maharaji, I mean aside from being positive about it so you can salvage your broken dream? Remember, we went to Maharaji thinking that we'd found our saviour. Now, we laugh at him, post adulterated pictures of him on the web, and he hires lawyers to get us to stop doing that. What a fucking turnaround, eh? What happenned to this picture? I'm not a helpless victim. Never have been. No, you're not. Neither am I. But we do make mistakes. We bounce back from them, and it's no crime to regret having made them. Maharaji was a mistake, pure and simple. What can I salvage from that? I don't know. I just see it as a bad trip I'm recovering from. And that's where my true gratitude lies, that I'm in a process of recovery from it instead of still being in the middle of it, not knowing if I'm coming or going. I always had doubts about M when I was a premie. I have none as an ex. I'm glad to be on this side of the fence. And you?

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 03:26:24 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Jerry Subject: regrets Message:

I always had doubts about M when I was a premie. I have none as an ex. I'm glad to be on this side of the fence. And you? Of course I'm glad to be out of the cult. As far as your other comments ,I expressed my views in other posts. I'll just say one thing here. I do not wish to destoy my enemies unless they are trying to destoy me. If the definition of an enemy includes trying to destoy each other then Maharaji is not your enemy. Because he couldn't care less about you. No offense intended.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 16:55:07 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Keith Subject: regrets Message:

Keith, I don't consider Maharaji an enemy, just a mistake. One I regret having made. But don't get me wrong. I'm not wallowing in regret. I've got other things to concern myself with. Life goes on and so forth. I'm just saying that Maharaji is one of the things I regret having done in my life. I wish I had been sharper and wiser when I first came across him. I wasn't. My tough luck. I can live with it.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 19:12:12 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Jerry Subject: regrets Message:

Fair enough Jerry. Of course I can think and feel, I wish I'd been wiser and sharper in my past. But I do realise that I've grown through my earlier more ignorent decisions. Hopefully I don't need to burn my finger in the fire to often before I learn something that will change my behavior.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 06:27:55 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: ya'all Subject: regrets and no regrets. Message:

The thought Jim has and perhaps the long distance impression I'm helping to give him is that I'm in some kind of new agey bliss land. Here,I could supposedly delude myself into thinking sweet yet untrue thoughts about everything. The reason I can say I have no regrets is because I choose to take responsibility for my own past choices. Of course I can feel anger at the pain others have inflicted upon me. But I was a participant in those drama's. And if in order to heal I've needed to feel the hurt and the anger and give vent to these feelings, I've also needed to go further and become free of these negative emotions and learn and grow and move on with more wisdom and love in my life. And yes. More forgiveness. I know many here are still in the healing process. So am I.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:36:44 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Keith Subject: You're a fucking idiot is what you are Message:

The reason I can say I have no regrets is because I choose to take responsibility for my own past choices. Of course I can feel anger at the pain others have inflicted upon me. But I was a participant in those drama's. Okay, Mr, New Age Boilerplate, let's talk about this. You 'chose to take responsibility', eh? Fine. What responsibility? The responsibility to not get defrauded? Okay, that's got to be worth something. But remember, there's only so much responsibility to go around for your becoming a premie. There's a proverbial pie that's only so big. Every bit of responsibility you take is that much responsibility Maharaji can't take. So what's a fair split between the fraud artist and his prey? The answer's obvious: the lion's share is the perpetrator's. You can only blame the victim so much here despite your new age foolish non-thinking 'analysis'. But your real problem, Keith, is that you're still suffering from the disease! Indeed, it looks like you'll probably live your whole life this way. You're in no position to analyze the harm because you're still not free of it. Now don't forget, Keith, before you reply, you're not into 'judgment', right? That doesn't leave you room to do much else but smile like an idiot and say thoughtless new age shit. Carry on.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 03:07:25 (GMT) From: Harry Email: None To: Jim Subject: You're a fucking idiot is what you are Message:

Talking of creating your reality and responsibility, it just seems common sense to me that we create our reality every day, and I can't see that it's anything 'New Age'. I'll give you a simple example. Say I choose to work in a high stress job, eat heaps of processed fatty foods and get no exercise. The realities that are going to flow from those choices would probably be high blood pressure, heart disease and depression, to name a few. Did I create that reality? Sure I did. Say I eat fresh, organic food, work in a job I like that's cruisey and get lots of fresh air and exercise. The realities to come from those choices would be very different from the above example. Did I create them? Sure I did. People can blame a wide assortment of people for their life, eg, M, their parents, their teachers, but at some stage they have to take responsibility for their choices. Like a hard arse like you, choosing to believe that a little Indian child was god. Nobody put a gun to your head. I reckon that we can be victims to our past or we can learn from it. For me there is no choice but to be optimistic, 'cause there is just so much pessimism out there.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 03:30:58 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Harry Subject: You're a fucking idiot is what you are Message:

Harry, you must drop in for a coffee when you are in this neck of the woods. You could get my number from Wesburn or Judd should have it. It would be good to catch up.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 04:10:55 (GMT) From: Harry Email: None To: Keith Subject: You're a fucking idiot is what you are Message:

Yeah Keith, that would be great. I see Deb around a bit. She gave me a great massage down at the river market not long ago ago. My shoulders were really sore the next day, but it was a good massage. Don't tell her I was sore though ;)

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 04:20:01 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Harry Subject: Promise not to tell Message:

My lips are sealed. This is my last message for the day. You can get my e-mail address from my new thread post up top.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 18:42:52 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Keith Subject: Promise not to tell Message:

Hi Keith, Just stopped in for a moment and seeing this I wanted to mention that I tried to email and it was returned. Got it from that email not here, maybe there was a typo. Re: responsibility, agree whole heartedly, even ultimately at the level of being conned by m or anyone. It has been mentioned here the similarities between us that made it possible for us to be conned but not some others that started out the process. Seems a logical extention of that thought. Not that we are responsible and thus bad or stupid just something in us that gave us a predispostion to it. Even further why I or say, Gerry didn't stay long but some did. Just things about each of us. Personally I think, ultimately, we are each responsible for everything in our lives, the good and the bad and there in lies the best part. WE ARE in control of our own lives if we choose to look at it that way we have the power to work with ourselves to reap what we desire from this life. Love, Robyn

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 19:05:47 (GMT) From: keith Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Promise not to tell Message:

Hi Robyn. Nice to hear from you. My e-mail is vayukeith@netscape.net I don't know why your e-mail got returned. Yes. We agree. Your words re-echo my own sentiments and understanding.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 20:56:25 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: keith Subject: Promise not to tell Message:

Dear Keith, Thanks, here in my space cadett self I was thinking maybe it wouldn't work until the day you mentioned in that email. Now I am thinking that that makes NO SENSE!!! Had a very funny space cadett moment pumping gas on the way home from work today. I NEVER pump my own gas but realized that I had looked at my gas tank this morning and thought it was full and even noticed a red sign light up that said check gages and couldn't figure it out. I mentioned it to Jade on the way home and she said well your gas tank is on Empty! Then it was like those old Keystone Cops movies, a comedy of errors for sure to actually get the gas into the tank! Got everyone involved in the laughter, those getting gas and the lady in the store was hysterical when I walked in to pay. If I get a job with good medical benifits I'll have to see about getting a brain transplant! :) Love, Robyn

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 22:26:45 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Promise not to tell Message:

Robyn, could we get a discount for two brain transplants. See ya in ward 3c.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:33:43 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Jim Subject: I know who I am but who are you? Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:35:45 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Jim Subject: ps Message:

Is that smiley and new agey enough for you dear boy?

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 06:22:03 (GMT) From: Zelda Email: None To: Jerry Subject: regret as a verb? Message:

I dont regret anything. However I do see what went wrong in my life. AND I do not think that because I have no regrets about my life, that Maraji sould not be held responsible for screwing people. Because I take responsiblity for my healing I also give myself permission to recognise what happened and hold that fat conman guilty for what he has done

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:26:18 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Zelda Subject: regret as a verb? Message:

I choose not to carry the burdens of others non-responsibility on my shoulders. To begin with that involves judgements that are tainted by my own experiences and reactions. Which are so personal and subjective that they are arbitary. I also realise the tendency for my own perspectives to become influenced by the perspectives of others and I'm trying hard not to lose my own unique slant based on my own unique experiences in the process. I do not perceive Maharaji as a little fat con man. I see him as not what he thinks he is. In other words, I think he is deluded. But not totally. And given that we exist in a world where the influences are so petty and crappy anyway,(in the main), then Maharaji's influence I do not perceive as high up in the 'rotten' stakes. People get traumatised by all manner of things. Honestly, I just don't believe that Maharaji is so bad. I really don't see it. Being partly deluded and having even major flaws as parts of ones make up do not sum up the whole person.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 06:31:09 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Zelda Subject: regret as a verb? Message:

Yes Zelda. But I wonder if Maharaji understands the pain he has been the cause of. I mean really comprehends it. Zelda,did Maharaji screw your life up?

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 08:52:08 (GMT) From: Zelda Email: None To: Keith Subject: regret as a verb? Message:

Margaringi does what he does and it eats people up. I was one of them.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:33:41 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Keith Subject: To Keith: regret vs disappointment Message:

You are right, Keith, that a person should not regret the difficulties and mistakes in their lives that have provided learning experiences. I think the only time that we should feel any regret is over those things we have done that have hurt other people. Personally, the only regrets I have are concerning the times that I have abused somebody in some small way. Fortunately, those instances have been few and very minor, but even the subtle ways that I created hurt for someone is regretful. I believe that ahimsa is the true path. (And this is not some silly New Age concept, Jim). Intimately connected with this simple idea is the story about Sam's mother, just below. The secret to how best relate to the higher self is in how we relate to others. The Beloved is not separate from the people near to us. Rawat's teaching is severely lacking in this truth, known as ahimsa or the Golden Rule, etc. I think it is his major failing. Ironically, what attracted me to the cult in the first place was the love that I experienced in satsang, and the love that the premies seemed to be feeling and sharing. The word 'community' was an important part of the experience back then. The focus was loving the Beloved, but it was a love that could be shared equally with everyone without ego relationships. It wasn't personal and the premie could freely feel and share that love and harmony. But that love failed. I do not regret that it failed, because it had to fail, because Mr. Rawat is not the Beloved and to focus on his form is a perversion of that love. The main reason I left the practice of Knowledge was because I saw that the premies did not really have that love. Interpersonal premie relationships degenerated into the common human failings. The focus was misdirected and the harmony could not be sustained. By the time I left in 1997 there was no hint left of the ashram love of the mid-70's, or that universal love that embraces all beings. Although I do not feel any regret, because it was a necessary lesson, I do feel disappointment. I would have enjoyed if the dreams and aspirations of the premies had born fruit and manifested the true Knowledge in this world. Those dreams and aspirations are universal and certainly not unique in any way to those of us who searched for them in Rawat's cult. Some of us have understood and acknowledged that the Beloved does not reside in Mr. Rawat's person. His narrow, simplistic, self-promoting teachings are a perversion of the universal truths that the 'Knowledge' should be all about. No one 'Master' can ever succeed in limiting the Beloved to himself. We are each responsible for our own connection, and we can never ever establish it through the power of some other person. This is the important point. Keith, your recent posts here have been slanted too drastically toward a positive interpretation. It's fine to 'look on the bright side,' but at the same time, we shouldn't wear rose-colored glasses. As I said, I accept your stance on regret, but I ask you what disappointment you have experienced. We leave Rawat when he disappoints us, when the path fails, not when the path succeeds and the proper lessons have been sufficiently learned. You seem to say that a Master can bring us valuable, but finite lessons that we can learn from and then move on advantageously. This is not so. The only lesson is a negative one, that we have looked for our own power in the wrong person. So my question: leaving regret aside, did you experience any disappointment? Care to take another look at it and respond?

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 18:43:46 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Way Subject: To Keith: regret vs disappointment Message:

So my question: leaving regret aside, did you experience any disappointment? Care to take another look at it and respond? Way,you are possibly right. My slant may be too positive. I'm not sure. I'll look at that with some focus and let you know what I think. As far as disappointment, of course I've been disappointed. I wanted and therefore projected all sorts of images onto Maharaji and premiedom. When the cracks began appearing in the walls of the castle I struggled to try and justify them. But finally I began to accept things as they were. And that's akin to losing a lover. A lover who was never really who you imagined and desired and yet one feels such disappointment at the demise of the dream. In your post (to Jim)below you make what is for me a very significant point. Different individuals in the same situation make different choices. Why is that? Really this is what I believe Jim has to ask. Why have I made the choices I have. And is there not a 'neccessity 'involved , in that those choices reflect aspects of who I am. Not 'neccessity' in the sense that I had no choice; but rather in the sense that 'the choice' had real significance. I feel that individuals do eventually learn and grow(evolve) even through the seemingly worst choices that are made. This may seem like an overly esoteric (and new agey) concept, but I feel it;I intuit that. How about you? I would also say that regret is a threshold. For instance, I might do something that hurts someone. I regret that momentarily. Until I reflect and realise and accept my imperfectness. I then don't hold onto the regret. But take responsibility for my actions and move on a little chastened but hopefully a little stronger and wiser. To hold onto regret seems therefore such a useless emotion. Like self pity. I hope this helps to clarify things a little more.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 19:46:41 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Keith Subject: Back to Keith Message:

Keith, Thanks for the thoughtful response, all of which I accept (unlike Jim, who probably cringes at the word 'intuit', especially in its verb form). Yes, ending the student relationship with a teacher is similar to a broken romance or a divorce. However, I think for the vast majority of premies, Rawat is a figurehead at most and not a real person in their lives. I actually believe that this is true even for PAM's, whose relationship with Rawat must be entirely superficial in a way, since no real and honest human communication can happen. I know one PAM who has been in Rawat's employ for years. He has told me that familiar, personal contact with Mr. Rawat is strictly for the immediate family and a few close associates. For example, his birthday celebration, which would in the past include some premies, is now strictly a family affair. Premies who do service directly to Mr. Rawat, even on a close, daily basis, are strictly servants. Familiarity is not part of the interaction. Although Mr. Rawat does indeed have peers, he would acknowledge none of them - gurus never do associate with each other. Therefore, his experience of life must be somewhat lonely. How did I get on this tangent? Oh yeah, disappointment with the teacher. I knew a premie in the seventies who thought he was having an awful time and simply had to have a meeting with Rawat, much like a personal audience with the pope. Such meetings were actually arranged, if one continually insisted on it, as this premie did. However, he later related that when he was alone with Maharaji, he felt silly asking Rawat his questions and Rawat was of no help! Still, some devotees continue to hope - another premie I know, a woman who I am still friends with, told me in the last few months that she still believes that one day she will have a personal contact with Maharaji. But no, it is not to be. The promised potential of devotion to a guru is never realized. It is a myth contradicted by the realities of the human condition. Gurus do a grave disservice to people, and I think we who have followed the path long enough to discover its dead end should advise others to not embark. That's why I don't understand ex-premies who have a laissez-faire attitude about gurus.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:44:14 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Way Subject: Nonsense, Way Message:

Although I do not feel any regret, because it was a necessary lesson..... Give me a fucking break, please! Becoming a premie and staying one for eight years was far from 'necessary'. The only way you can get there is by doing some dumb-ass new age word play but, please, don't even bother. We've all seen these games (we were premies, don't forget) and I don't think any of the non-new-agers here want to even see those kinds of efforts anymore. I mean, really, Way, what are you going to say? That it was 'necessary' because it happened? Or it was 'necessary' because without that experience you wouldn't be the person you are today? If that's the case, then everything's 'necessary' and if everything's necessary, nothing's necessary. The word loses its meaning and that, I'm afraid, seems to be the goal of all this new age word shit, to obliterate language and fuck up the mind. What do you think?

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 16:09:24 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re:nonsense Message:

Jim, A clarification about 'necessary.' Most people intuite sufficiently that 'I could never surrender to another person.' In fact, I remember I met an old friend one afternoon on the street and invited him back to the ashram. I told him all about what I was doing. When I gave him a brief tour of the house, he was very impressed with all the shoes lined up in the entry way, and impressed with the communal living situation. But as for our Master, he said those very words: 'I could never surrender to another person.' I should have known better, myself, but I guess I didn't. That's all I meant by the word choice of a necessary lesson. I'm not sure, but I would think that you and I were attracted to the premie life for similar reasons: the prospect of the kind of love that I talked about above. Your disappointment is not just with Rawat, but with the whole concept of higher self and universal love, which you deride in contempuous terms and labels. It's a hard-hearted approach, Jim, and not one that instructs your thinking in the best manner. But we are all still learning, n'est-ce pas?

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 01:13:48 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Way Subject: No way, Way Message:

Way, Think about what you're saying. Your friend saw the trap and you didn't. So you learnt a lesson -- watch out for that trap. That doesn't in any way whatsoever imply that that was a 'necessary' lesson. No way, not at all. It'd be like your fourteen year-old daughter gets seduced by some pimp and ends up 'working' for a couple of years. She finally escapes and now has one big lesson under her belt about taking drugs from strangers or something. Great. Lucky girl, it could have been worse. Much worse. But what would have been even better, of course, would have been her never falling prey to this guy in the first place! So there's no way in the world that you can say that, despite whatever silver lining you can find in this cloud, her 'lesson' was necessary. That's just blatant rationalization. It's intellecutally dishonest and its particularly, although far from exclusively, rampant in new age circles where no one's honest with themselves or others, they're so busy trying to create or plaster over reality. Just to be clear, in contrast here's an example of something necessary. Your fourteen year-old (now virginal) daughter wants to have sex with her boyfriend. She's afraid of the initial pain of that first time but, well, what can you do? It's necessary if she wants to get from A to B. Unavoidable, in other words. There was nothing unavoidable about any of us falling into this trap. That was just bad luck.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 14:11:36 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re:No way, Way Message:

Jim, Now that you spell it out, I do see why you object to the phrase 'necessary lesson.' I agree with your points, and willingly change the wording to: a lesson I learned the hard way. You really are vigilant against thoughtless spiritual expressions. However, I did not see any comments from you about the ideal of ahimsa or about the concept of intuition. Perhaps a topic of discussion for another day. When 'higher intelligence' is rejected as totally as you reject it, a large part of human feeling and expression must be denied.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 19:15:06 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Way Subject: Re:No way, Way Message:

When 'higher intelligence' is rejected as totally as you reject it, a large part of human feeling and expression must be denied. And in its place an over compensatory focus on verbal,analytical nit picking.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 15:31:57 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Way Subject: Well, kinda, I guess Message:

However, I did not see any comments from you about the ideal of ahimsa or about the concept of intuition. My girlfriend's kid had asthma but grew out of it. I wouldn't worry. Eat your greens, maybe? When 'higher intelligence' is rejected as totally as you reject it, a large part of human feeling and expression must be denied. Yes, true, but don't stop there. Think of all the color we've lost when we got rid of goblins, serpents at the end of the world, thousands of levels of hell and countless gods and goddesses. It's been getting drabber by the century. But what to do?

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 19:21:36 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Jim Subject: Well, kinda, I guess Message:

Yes, true, but don't stop there. Think of all the color we've lost when we got rid of goblins, serpents at the end of the world, thousands of levels of hell and countless gods and goddesses. It's been getting drabber by the century. But what to do? Simple. Drown yourself in hard cold scientific facts.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 22:55:30 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: Way, Jim, Keith Subject: Three perspectives Message:

Reading the exchange between Jim, Way, and Keith I find myself wondering how it is that I agree with parts of all of them. In Jim, I enjoy a straight forward concise evaluation. In Way, I see personal reflection, and in Keith I see attempts to move on from what experience has given - negative or positive. I was talking with a friend at work the other day about aging. She mentioned her age and how she felt about it. Younger than her, I told her what I wanted in age was to not get so crazy about stuff. Like when something new happens...or something amazing...and I get all into it or crazy about it then either lose interest or fall flat on my face. I want to take it more in stride and not wig. When I think of new age stuff I think it borders on denial and making up a scheme. When I think of behaviourism I feel ripped off. Lately there is a line from the Tao te Ching that haunts me. It says simply, 'return the the knotting of rope'. I see that as just deal with what's in front of you. Don't get all lost in your head with theories, judgements and goofy thoughts best not expressed. 'I've been burned once or twice before you know its true, I know its bound to happen again before I'm through.' - Jim Cuddy

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 21:27:49 (GMT) From: Joey Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Steve Hassan meets John Travolta Message:

Statement from Steve Hassan On April 26, 2000, at approximately 5:45 p.m., I was filmed by an AP (Associated Press) TV cameraperson giving a copy of my new book, Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves to John Travolta as he was leaving a book signing at Borders bookstore in Downtown Crossing, Boston. I had just finished an interview with the AP reporter outside the bookstore and had expressed my concern that the upcoming movie, Battlefield Earth, which stars Travolta, was really a major effort to recruit new members, as well as promote good public relations for the cult. By using one of its biggest stars, they could try to offset the negative PR and dwindling membership due to the Lisa McPherson death and subsequent law suits (for more information, see www.lisatrust.org and www.lisamcpherson.org). Scientology normally has incredibly high security around its star recruiter and political advocate. As Travolta was leaving the book store, his limousine stopped in the middle of the street, his electric window rolled down, his arm came out as he waved. A number of fans rushed to ask him for autographs- handing him different objects to sign. I ran over too (only about 50 feet) and handed him the new, hard bond edition of Releasing the Bonds. He signed the cover with a felt pen and handed it back to me. I stood for a fraction of a second and thought what an amazing keepsake this would be. I quickly remembered one of my long held fantasies of counseling John out of Scientology and imagining him speaking out publicly about the dangers of cults. So I said to him, 'I am the author. Here, you keep it' and gave it back to him. He seemed startled and looked over the cover. Under my name it says 'America's Leading Cult Counselor.' In an instant, the car sped away. I stood on Washington Street dumbfounded, repeating to myself, 'I just gave Releasing the Bonds to John Travolta. I just gave Releasing the Bonds to John Travolta.' I began to wonder what happened after the car drove away? Did John start reading the blurbs on the front and back of t he book? Did he see that I wrote about him on page 16 and 17? Did one of his Scientology handlers try to take the book away from him? Did he give it over? Did he insist on looking at it? Of course, I have seen my 'dead agent pack' that Scientology gives to people to discredit me. What probably happened is that the book was thrown out in the nearest garbage can. But, what if it wasn't? For sure, some Scientology official is going to be yelled at for the security breach. How could such a known SP (Scientology's loaded lingo term for suppressive person- defined as anyone who criticizes them) give such dangerous information to their celebrity? On top of this, I also appeared on local news channel 4 (CBS) as well, describing my concern that the movie was going to be used to recruit new members, and that the group is doing a 'con job.' In any case, I hope to post a picture shortly to my web site, www.freedomofmind.com. I can only hope and pray that John actually considers the mind control issue and realizes that he doesn't need Scientology. They need him. I truly believe that deep inside he knows that and I hope he finds the resources to extricate himself in the near future. I also want to invite you to visit our archive of our ongoing bulletin board at freedomofmind.com. Just click on 'view messages.' If you wish to sign up and post, please do! Steven Hassan -------------------- From the freedomofmind.com confidential email list. Copyright 2000, Freedom of Mind. If you wish to put this on other newsgroups, please include the entire post.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 11:31:17 (GMT) From: jondon Email: None To: Joey Subject: Recent interview with Travolta... Message:

Apparently questions were asked re: scientology and things he asked not to be mentioned. He walked off the set and asked not to have it shown. Have not read this yet. Has been word of mouth from ex-scientologist in LA.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 03:10:01 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Joey Subject: just read in some weekly mag Message:

US weekly? not sure. About Nicole Kidman and Tom Cruise leaving Scientology. They said they had not experienced any of the harrassment others had supposedly been through. well duh, big surpise there. But they did say they had done it all quietly and just wanted to leave it behind. I hadn't even known they were involved.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 03:20:10 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Selene Subject: just read in some weekly mag Message:

I saw Steve Hassan speak a couple of weeks ago, and he said Travolta wants to leave Scientology, but that he's being blackmailed by them, so he can't leave. Evidently the 'clearing' and 'auditing' process is tape recorded, so if all this junk comes out of you and it's on tape, well you know Travolta's is shoveling shit against the tide. Cruise and Kidman sue at the drop of a hat, and I doubt that Scientology would want to take them on. High profile isn't even the word for that one.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 03:43:04 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Monmot Subject: makes you wish they WOULD sue Message:

They mentioned being very upset about the upcoming 'Battlefield Earth' movie. I guess it was being filmed while they were doing 'eyes wide shut' (they should have been upset about any association with that movie IMO!!) I followed the Lisa Mcpherson story. Yesterday someone was defending our last Landmark Forum invasion at work saying I was too uptight about cults. yeah, guess they were not related or friends with Lisa.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 05:55:34 (GMT) From: Zelda Email: None To: Joey Subject: Steve Hassan Message:

Joey I dont suppose that this Steve Hassan is related to Hass Hassan. Twud be a miracle that.

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 21:11:56 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Maharaji's commandment not to think....... Message:

Anyone who was a premie in the 70s and 80s knows that Maharaji had FIVE commandments that were printed up and given to you when you received knowledge. They were to be strickly followed as ther recipe to realize knowledge. Maharaji has quietly dropped mention of those commanements in recent years, due to the fact that they are extremely embarrassing to his new image of new-age meditation instructor, but has never explained what the fuck they were all about. One of the primary commandments, which is exemplary of what makes a cult a cult was NEVER LEAVE ROOM FOR DOUBT IN YOUR MIND Since repressing doubts is the hallmark of a cult, and mind control, premies have sometimes on this forum tried to come up with interesting spins on that commandment -- implying that it really wasn't so bad. The lastest was down below, by someone posting as O, (who I think may be OP, because the explanation is so similar to the really stupid one she had some time ago). Here is what O said: Doubt leads to questions.Questions lead to analysis.Analysis leads to answers.Answers remove doubt. This process is officially sanctioned by all governing bodies, past and present masters, and nowhere does it require you to “muzzle all doubts or questions”.Bingo!So what cult was it again that yuo used to be in? This is pretty funny. You aren't supposed to have any room for a doubt in the first place, and you are supposed to 'leave no room for them', but, according to O, that means you are supposed to entertain those doubts, question them, and get them resolved. How stupid and ridiculous. Doubts were simply not allowed. If as a premie you couldn't get rid of them by CONSTANTLY MEDITATING AND REMEMBERING HOLY NAME (which was the FIRST of Maharaji's commandments and a means to use meditation to keep yourself from THINKING), you just repressed them. Funny also, that never once did I ever hear Maharaji ever say what O posted. You would think he might have gotten around to that. This is O, engaging in revisionist dishonesty if I ever saw it.

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 21:35:07 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Joe Subject: Ya gotta revise it to stomach it Message:

WEll I think if you talk to any premie they practice this sort of editing in their minds just to survive as a 'thinking', relatively 'healthy' human being...I know I certainly did. 'well he's not talking about the mind that tells you to brush your teeth in the morning, he's talkign about the mind that keeps you awake at night with worries and fears...' yadda yadda yadda. Every premie has to do this to survive, it's like learning litle tricks and tools to survive the weird boss at a job, or to survive the weird parents in an alcoholic family. After awhile you get sick of it and stop making excuses for them.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 18:28:47 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: Helen Subject: I doubt it Message:

He never said anything about the commandments or 'leave no room for doubt in your mind' in the videos I viewed as a crappy aspirant, but the notion did seem implied. I think the whole warped delusion of 'deciding to be happy' he drones on about pretty much paints the same notion. Makes me picture building a pretty white house next to a refuge camp and never even seeing it there. His choosing to be happy seems like a selfish happiness in denial of anything but. Hence, the 'no doubt in your mind' part.

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:00:37 (GMT) From: jondon Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Talked to Howie Carr today Message:

I spoke with Howie's assitant, Sandy, today. She said he is in the 'mulling it over' stage. She said to keep the emails, faxes and phone calls coming in. I'll call again tomorrow. She says she'll push him on it. I'm beginning to wonder about her. In any event. Call, write, phone or fax Howie Carr this week. We'll try to get him to do something. Sorry I don't know how to hook up the html's yet but here are the cut and pastes: howiecarr@mindspring.com www.howiecarr.com www.wrko.com (wait for it to load and you can listen to the show) 1-877-howiecarr(469-4322) | (617)266-6868 | Chump Line (617)375-8007 | (This is a message recorder,he plays some of the messages each day.) FAX: (617)236-6807 | Contest Line: (617)931-1680 I will let you know what I hear as I hear it.

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:14:32 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: All Subject: Also FYI Message:

Ya know, there's a kn session happening right now - in LA. Just found out three people fr my city got on a plane this morning.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:15:54 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Elaine Subject: 120 in LA - 9 am today ( nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 17:17:01 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Elaine Subject: 120 in LA - 9 am today ( nt Message:

Boy, I wish I could get my hands on some of the aspirants' names and addresses. 120 - that is too many.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 18:52:57 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: Way Subject: I'm just glad its not 121.(nt) Message:

M sucks

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:21:40 (GMT) From: Gail Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Why is MJ holding a programming on Father's Day? Message:

Just Announced : Father's Day, June 18th 2000 Delayed broadcast of event from Alexandria, Virginia of that same day. Broadcast time: 12pm PDT. Could it be that he wants to remind the flock that, indeed, he is no mere mortal but ... THE FATHER OF ALL FATHERS WITH ALL 64 POWERS: Our father has come to lead us along The path of perfection. He's come to make us realize Why we're alive. He's pure and his love is Deeper than the ocean. Dah Dah Dah Dah [senility]. And we're askin' Please, please, please Teach me devotion. Dah Dah Dah. Sickening, isn't it? He actually re-recorded this as an instrumental on one of the CDs of recent years. Ah, yes--he must reinforce these concepts. How else will he get the dough for the kids' weddings.

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 22:36:22 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Gail Subject: Why is MJ holding a programming on Father's Day? Message:

Dear Gail, I remember when I was a premie, going to a Father's Day parade for m, in New York City. The best part was the free meal we had afterwards at the Hara Krishna ashram. A premie friend had been a Hara Krishna and new the deal, all we had to do was chant for a bit prior. Love, Robyn

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 18:24:07 (GMT) From: Gail Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Why is MJ holding a programming on Father's Day? Message:

Geez! The things we do for love, eh? Love, Gail

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:28:01 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Gail Subject: What are the odds they'll marry non-premies!? (nt) Message:

What are the odds they'll marry non-premies!? (nt)

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:37:20 (GMT) From: Gail Email: None To: cq Subject: What are the odds they'll marry non-premies!? (nt) Message:

Well, the prognosis is not good. Daya used have a boyfriend (the gardener's son, I think) stay at the guest house. He is also one of MJ's singer/songwriters. I don't know if they are still together. The only people they meet are the gagagagag goooooooone premies! So, I imagine that's who they'll take up with. Perhaps they'll be celibate devotees--that is the ticket to true devotion, isn't it?

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:01:41 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Gail Subject: Perhaps I should have said 'eventually'? ;) Message:

But then, on second thoughts, ... why? After all, doesn't EVERYONE worship their father-in-law ??? Whaddya mean, no?

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 21:48:18 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: cq Subject: speculation.....I heard the guru Message:

strongly influenced Premlata ( wadi to those who know her I certainly don't ) to leave UCSC. One has to wonder if her exposure to the world beyond Daddy's kingdom was threatening to him. Funny too, because he bragged about her being there at some festival I heard too. Perhaps, as always, he has contradictory feelings about it. Note the pride he takes in St. Joseph's academy, when he never graduated from the school.

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 13:45:59 (GMT) From: Gail Email: None To: Susan Subject: Why the Pride? He doesn't even have a grade-8 Message:

education! Of course, he has done well for himself. It just goes to show that education isn't everything!

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 17:50:04 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Scientists break speed of light? Message:

An article in the Sunday Times reports that Dr Lijun Wang, a particle physicist at the NEC research institute in Princeton, claims to have accelerated light pulses up to 300 times the normal speed of light. Details of the findings been submitted to the journal Nature for review prior to possible publication. Wang's experiment is the latest and possibly the most important evidence that the physical world may not operate according to any of the accepted conventions. Here is the link: Eureka! Scientists break speed of light

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 17:06:04 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: G Subject: And Scientologists bend the laws of Nature... Message:

Careful, G, the research hasn't even been peer-reviewed, let alone published. Even then there is a hundred-year history of one-off then unreplicated marvels ('n'-rays, 'cold fusion' anyone?) which even make it into prestigious journals. Consider Nature's embarrassment about thirty years ago after publishing a paper submitted by a pair of Scientologists which claimed to have demonstrated Uri Geller's psychic powers under controlled conditions. (Just sloppy research.) And I certainly wouldn't look first to the Sunday Times for scientific information or caution about accuracy. Not so long ago they ran a lengthy campaign to publicise the work of the French theorist who claimed there to be no link between HIV and AIDS, counter to the prevailing consensus among medicial researchers (and which remains true today) that there most certainly IS a link. They also published the 'Hitler Diaries'. Then again, this speed of light guy might be on to something - but, as always, extraordinary claims require extraordinarily good evidence. (Note also the physicist from Edinburgh who argues the effect would not threaten the principle of causality.)

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 18:11:44 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Nigel Subject: I didn't say it was verified Message:

Yes, I understand that this is an unverified claim and I think I made that clear, although maybe I should have made it more clear. I wondered about how accurate the Sunday Times is on scientific issues and it's good that you pointed out their past mistakes. Still, I considered it interesting enough to mention. I agree, something like this requires replication and extraordinary evidence. Personally, I would hope that if true, it wouldn't threaten the principle of causality. Then again, that doesn't matter. What were 'n-rays' supposed to be?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 12:23:05 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: G Subject: I never said you did... Message:

I only meant 'be careful' about sources - especially headlines like: 'Eureka: scientists break the speed of light!' which are guaranteed to mislead at least a section of the public. I'll see if I can dig out some stuff on 'n rays'. It was about 100 years ago when some guy whose name I have forgotten spent years in the lab 'measuring' this new, albeit nonexistent, form of radiation (shortly after x rays were discovered).

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 15:48:57 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: G Subject: Boy, doesn't that just open the floodgates? Message:

You remind me of a lot of us back when we were premies, G. Siezing some new advance in science as 'proof' that Knowledge was real and that Maharaji was Lord. Don't forget to invite your family to Houston!

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 00:54:38 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Jim Subject: No, it doesn't Message:

I was relating a story about an interesting scientific claim. How you infer that I am claiming that this unsubstantiated advance in science is 'proof' of K or M is beyond me. You must be really desperate, making up an allegation like this to try to disparage me. I'm not surprised that you reacted negatively, but this I didn't expect, not even from you. Now, do you have any intelligent comments to make? Here, let me help you, how about: . This claim is not yet verified. There have been plenty of bogus claims made before. . If verified, it is not clear what it would mean, it wouldn't necessarily be a refutation of current theories, maybe just a refinement (like Einstein's theories are a refinement of Newtonian physics). . There could be an alternate explanation for the observation. . It doesn't mean that this is an 'anything goes' universe. . How is this evidence of a God or anything spiritual? Something like that?

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Date: Tues, Jun 06, 2000 at 08:03:54 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: G Subject: Will they have to pay for it? (nt) Message:

or can it be fixed?

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 00:59:11 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: AJW Subject: I think they'll be fined. Message:

A co-worker joked that the physics cops will arrest this guy for speeding.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 01:41:35 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: G Subject: I think they'll be fined. Message:

How would he know if he was speeding? The guy was there before he got there. Strange shit, eh?

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 02:08:13 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Jerry Subject: good one Message:

Good one, Also, he would be hard to chase. Yes, if this is true is very weird indeed. I read once that a physicist, I forget who, had doubts about a theory of his because it probably wasn't weird enough. Btw, I would probably answer no to the two questions asked to the NAS members, due to the way they were worded.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 02:37:38 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: G Subject: They understood the questions Message:

G, they knew they were being asked if they believed in God or not, and most of them, overwhelmingly, and in some cases, darn near unanimously, said no. Most scientists don't believe in God. But so what? It's not their business to believe or not believe. Their goal is to find answers, concrete answers to the questions of existence. If it was unquestionable that God existed, they're would be no need for scientists. We would all just be content that God 'did it', and leave it at that. I know I would be. What makes the sun rise and set? God did it. Why is there death? God's will. Praise be to him. Where does the wind come from? From God. Case closed. No need for further questions or investigations. God did it. How nice. How simple. No need for scientists. They're only going to find out what they already know, anyway. God did it. Right.

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Date: Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 17:00:51 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Jerry Subject: the questions Message:

No, the NAS members surveyed were not asked if they believed in God, but a certain kind of personal God, 'a God in intellectual and effective communication with mankind.' I would reluctantly answer 'no' to that question, and I believe in a God. I'll say it again. A quote from this web site promoting the teaching of evolution Are Terms like 'Impersonal' and 'Unsupervised' Scientific? A Personal Commentary on Methodological Materialism ... a 1997 poll by Witham and Larson reported in Nature (386:435-436, 1997), claimed that about 40% of American scientists have a belief in a personal God -- and up to another 45% (possibly -- it is unclear because of the way questions were worded) appear to believe in a God, but not a personal one. These were the same surveyors. If you're going to believe one of their surveys, you ought to believe the other. The 1997 survey claims that up to 85% of US scientists believe in a God. But I agree, so what? I only brought this issue up because some claim that a believe in any kind of God is somehow against science. It is not. Most US scientists (according to the 1997 survey) believe in a God, some NAS scientists even believe in that kind of personal God. That hasn't stopped them from being scientists. I disagree with the wording 'questions of existence', those include philosophical questions. Scientists find answers about the natural world. When you start asking 'Why is there anything?' or 'Why are we here?', IMO, you are going beyond science. I strongly disagree with 'If it was unquestionable that God existed, they're would be no need for scientists. etc. etc.'. That is total nonsense. No, if we knew that a God exists, there would still be many needs for scientists and science. Knowing that a God exists would not describe how the natural world operates. Scientists, believers or not, are not content with 'God did it', they want to know how the natural world operates, that is what science is about. Much of science has been actually inspired, not hindered, by a believe in a God. Your implication that a belief in a God hinders science is totally false. You are implying that belief stifles one's curiosity, that is not true. What you are saying is just philosophically materialistic propaganda, it's also very insulting. It is also an attempt to exploit peoples' confusion between philosophical and methodological materialism.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 01:30:04 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: G Subject: the questions Message:

These were the same surveyors. If you're going to believe one of their surveys, you ought to believe the other. OK, so most American scientists, that were surveyed, believe in God, personal or otherwise, and most leading scientists who are members of the NAS that replied to their particular survey don't. Big deal. Whether scientists believe or not doesn't mean a thing. What is interesting is that there's no way that it can be proven or disproven if God exists, as of yet. So scientists, wisely, don't apply themselves to the question. Some who are of a more philosophical bent do, particularly Richard Dawkins, who, I guess, is the most notorious of this ilk. He also makes a lot of money on his books. Interestingly, scientists who address the question of God's existence seem to be among the bestselling authors; Dawkins, Gould, Davies. These cats make a lot of money arguing their case on the bestseller lists. Hmm. (I still like Dawkins, Jim. Just want you to know that. I just find his motives suspect because of the money involved). But how come it can't be PROVEN that God exists? This question has always troubled me. How come it's not as clear as day that he exists, if he truly does? I don't doubt your existence. I don't think you doubt or question mine. But God? There's this great debate going on. You would think that no such debate would be raging if God actually existed. I mean, he'd just be THERE, wouldn't he, like other things are? The sky, stars, people, plants, trees... It seems that God has this unique property of being something, or someone, he or she, who's existence can be debated. Doesn't that tell you something. Tell me, what is God's purpose in keeping people guessing? Why do people search for him? How come he's just not there like other normal things are? Knowing that a God exists would not describe how the natural world operates. Yeah, but who would care? Why bother yourself with the petty details if you already know the big picture? If, ultimately, it was a fact that God is behind it, isn't that all you'd need to know? Seriously, G, what else would you need to know? God did it. I mean, what a great, simple answer. God did it. It's beautiful, man. What else would you need to know? It would be stupid to even attempt to figure out how. For what reason? Knowing that God exists -- that's the final answer. Everything else pales before it. It would be silly to want to know anything further.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 08, 2000 at 02:48:02 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Jerry Subject: the questions Message:

...members of the NAS that replied to their particular survey don't I would add 'believe in the type of personal God asked about'. scientists who address the question of God's existence seem to be among the bestselling authors; Dawkins, Gould, Davies You can add the Christian authors to that list. I do have to admit that I learned a quite a bit from the two Dawkins books that I read. He has a right to express his philosophical views, I just wish he would make clear the difference between that and science, they really are different. Also that he would present the facts in a more balanced way and not overstate his case. The same things would apply to Behe, who underestimated the number of journal articles on the evolution of biochemical processes. I also wonder if Behe thinks God just 'poofed' the first cell into existence, he doesn't say. But how come it can't be PROVEN that God exists? ... How come it's not as clear as day that he exists, if he truly does? ... he'd just be THERE ... like other things ... The hell if I know, but the way I see it, if there is a God, God is not a he, a she, or even a thing in the normal sense. So God wouldn't be there like other things. God would have to be beyond time and space and be 'something' uncomprehensible. But I think I may not be understanding your question. Knowing that a God exists would not describe how the natural world operates. Yeah, but who would care? I for one, and I think many other people would also. We would still have to struggle to survive, still want a comfortable, pleasurable, and entertaining life, and still be curious (I would anyway), etc. Knowing how the natural world operates helps us with all of this. I don't think that believing or even knowing that 'God did it' is really a satisfying answer, I would still want to know how. Assuming there is a God, knowing more about the natural world can provide (IMO) a better understanding of God, or least what God isn't. That has been the attitude of many scientists.

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 20:12:06 (GMT) From: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: G Subject: Scientists break speed of light? Message:

Interesting. It could go to show that there are no absolutes in the realm of nature, at least not in terms of present-day scientific theories. Sober scientists are honest enough to admit that their theories are at best an approximation of observed phenomena. A sound theory should theoretically predict the outcome of every experiment, but it is just an assumption of course. Every once in a while things pop up that are just plain weird. Whatever happened to cold fusion, BTW?

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 07:27:01 (GMT) From: CHR Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Maharaji's assets Message:

This has probably been covered already, but since I only turn up here about twice a year, I am curious about a number of issues related to M's personal fortune. Firstly, how many residences does he have these days? When I was actively involved, he had one in Malibu, one in Miami, one in England, one in Australia, and one in India. I have done service at all of these-some were more luxurious and over the top than others. Sometimes the residences were bought in the names of trusted premies. Does anyone know what names they are in now? Were there any problems when these premies decided to leave? Does he still own a plane or at least lease one? Does he still have a fleet of very expensive cars at Malibu?

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 16:47:16 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: CHR Subject: Maharaji's assets Message:

It is my understanding that in addition to Malibu, Maharaji has residences in England, Australia and India. JM also said that premies may have bought him apartments in places like Paris, but I'm not sure. Part of the plans to his Malibu monstrosity built around 1992 is on the ex-premie website -- one of the floors I think. I am told it is visible from the beach in Malibu. Given the huge number of garage spaces shown in the plans, and that the garages are actually on more than one level, I think M still has the fleets of luxury cars. He also admits to having an extensive watch collection, which I'm sure is worth plenty. Another recent ex-premie came on one time and said he was commissioned to try to find Maharaji a 1959 vintage Cadillac he wanted. So, Maharaji is definitely still into collecting material possessions (that most of us couldn't dream of owning), at an unabated pace. His Gulfstream jet is apparently owned by a shell corporation which is headed by trusted PAMs. I think the reason for this is so that Elan Vital can technically 'lease' the plane whenever Maharaji is 'invited' to an EV 'event.' That way, all the cost can be at EV's expense, and Maharaji doesn't have to declare any of it as taxable income. He apparently has other planes as well, and a helicopter. I'm sure the ownership of the assets is quite complicated, all to protect M from taxes, primarily. However you slice it, Maharaji is obscenely wealthy, and has done a bang up job accumulating wealth since he began his gig as Perfect Master to disaffected hippies in the early 70s in the West. He hasn't been very good at all in getting or keeping followers in the West, but getting money from the ones remaining, has not appeared to have been a problem.

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 16:59:31 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Joe Subject: He's not that wealthy!! Message:

According to some of the documents on eDrek's site, the Malibu land is owned by some 'Seva' non-profit organisation .... I bet this is the same for the 'Swiss Cottage' in UK, Amaroo, Santyogashram, etc

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 17:07:47 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: I Think He's VERY wealthy Message:

Sure, there are lots of shell corporations that are basically tax dodges. But that doesn't mean M isn't wealthy. No matter what legal entity owns property, Maharaji still controls it, uses it for whatever he wants to use it for and so he lives like a king. Very wealthy people use trusts and corporate entities all the time to protect themselves from taxes. Maharaji is certainly no different, except that Maharaji gets most of his money in the form of 'gifts' which are tax free to HIM. That's a big loophole in the tax laws is you ask me. I think I'm going to ask my employer to start characterizing my paycheck as a 'gift.' Think of all I would save in income taxes?

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 22:42:01 (GMT) From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: Joe Subject: I Think He's VERY wealthy Message:

I wonder what his cost of goods is? how many dollars does ev spend to make M 1? what a racket.

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 11:17:07 (GMT) From: Denver ex Email: None To: CHR Subject: Maharaji's assets Message:

There are posters here have researched companies that have user-friendly premies in key postitions. I cant remember many details except that the list was LONG. Also of interest is the companies run by premies that donate cash or assets regularly to EV. The old employees of DLM ect have gone on to other professions and feed the beast.

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 03:19:38 (GMT) From: sam Email: - To: Everyone Subject: the last breath Message:

my mum practised K from 79 till she died in 94. When she was really ill I took her a picture if M in hospital. She put it face down in her drawer and said 'at the end the thing that really matters to me is my family' He gave her no comfort, nor did K. So much for his spiel about' when you take your last one you'll wish to be with K.

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 19:32:20 (GMT) From: Gail Email: None To: sam Subject: the last breath Message:

I'm glad to hear that you and the rest of your family had a chance to be with your mother without having the greaseball Guru in the way. All the while MJ was spouting about how broadening the effects of K were, our worlds were getting smaller and smaller. Jeez! After a while, it's a contest--who will win the Guru or the Maya (family, friends, jobs, responsibilities, etc.). Sometimes it takes a lot to realize that the really important people in your life are the ones who are there on a day-to-day basis. The Lard of the Universe never did anyone any good.

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 07:08:13 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: sam Subject: Dash Between Two Dates Message:

I remember M saying once that life 'was a dash between two dates.' To me, such a statement takes the wind out of one's sails, encouraging a disengagement or dissociation from participating in life, presented under the guise of experiencing the higher self (although, sadly, I bought it at the time). I am glad, Sam, that your mother felt that way about her family, and I am sorry for your loss. I watched both my parents die, and although it was an intense experience, it was also a powerful one and not to be soon forgotten. It leaves M in the dust.

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 06:40:23 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: sam Subject: I always knew that Message:

even when I was hooked something in me knew that. I think it was because I had young children. I just KNEW on a gut level that if they went into ER with some emergency or something, that a picture of that guru wasn't going to give me anything at all. Not even back then. In the midst of it. Very intense post Sam. I'm sad for your loss. (if I should be?) thank you for posting that anyway because I think I do know what you mean.

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 11:34:38 (GMT) From: Zelda Email: None To: Sam Subject: last breath Message:

Thank you for posting that about your mom. If it helps, I have been clinically dead and it is way more intense and beautiful than we can imagine and it has absolutely Zero to do with maraji. I believe that living honestly allows the death experience to be pure while intense.

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Date: Mon, Jun 05, 2000 at 14:07:38 (GMT) From: gerry Email: glyng@techline.com To: Zelda Subject: wow Zelda! Could you elaborate? Message:

Only if you feel like it, of course, and email is always an option.

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