Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 11:29:23 (GMT)
From: Jun 17, 2000 To: Jun 23, 2000 Page: 4 Of: 5


Stonor -:- Did they take out Sir David's page AGAIN!!! -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 02:04:32 (GMT)
__ (Sir) David -:- My site was eliminated again -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:33:52 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Waht about your redirect link? (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 13:02:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ (Sir) David -:- I'll update that and other links today (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 13:44:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I have another question for you Sir David -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 14:04:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ (Sir) David -:- Here's your answer Jean-Michel -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:43:16 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- Disregard above probably, it's confusing (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 03:49:04 (GMT)
__ ThreadJacker -:- I loathe the Media... Off Topic -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 02:42:40 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- I don't loathe all the Media... 2-edged sword -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 18:55:36 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- I loathe the Media... Off Topic (ot) -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:01:59 (GMT)

Keith -:- Forgiving Maharaji? -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 00:06:46 (GMT)
__ Lotus Eater -:- Forgiving Maharaji? -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 21:57:09 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Forgiving Yourself Keith -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 18:08:54 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- Retirement primarily, then we can help the other -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 07:06:45 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- Forgiving Maharaji? -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:57:17 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- Forgiving Maharaji? -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 01:28:22 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- Forgiving Maharaji? -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 00:38:23 (GMT)
__ __ Keith -:- Forgiving Maharaji? -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 11:26:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Forgiving Maharaji? -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 19:01:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Happy -:- Forgiveness does not help -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:02:01 (GMT)

cq -:- This ring a bell for anyone? -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 18:58:51 (GMT)

Stonor -:- E-mail sent to you today -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 17:38:23 (GMT)
__ FA -:- Replied today (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:06:32 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- PS: Above post to FA (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 17:39:28 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- PS: Also FA, . . . -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 18:11:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Forum Admin -:- PS: Also FA, . . . -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 22:51:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Thanks FA2, sorry, forgot - (ot) -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 23:09:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- Hey, don't worry! and what did you forget? -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 23:32:50 (GMT)

Rev John Hammond-Smyth -:- David and Goliath -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 14:15:39 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Nice one Rev. ! NT -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 14:28:20 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- I for one,have sorely missed you, welcome back rev -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 15:07:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- I for one,have sorely missed you, welcome back rev -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:54:32 (GMT)

Mel Bourne -:- KATIE - please send me your email address.... -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 12:15:43 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- MEL - here it is! -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 13:32:35 (GMT)

Robyn -:- Happy Father's Day -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 08:23:37 (GMT)
__ Bill -:- Happy Father's Day -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:57:43 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Happy Father's Day -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:28:02 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Happy Father's Day/robyn/gregg -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 22:33:48 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- To Robyn, Marianne, other cyberfriends... -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 15:52:35 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- To Robyn, Marianne, other cyberfriends... -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 17:01:33 (GMT)

Zelda -:- Stop press. I am loosing it because -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 05:51:30 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- Zelda????!!!! (OT?) -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 05:55:40 (GMT)
__ __ Zelda -:- Zelda????!!!! (OT?) -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 06:33:10 (GMT)

Rob -:- You have simply got to check this out!!! -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 04:26:40 (GMT)
__ VP -:- Daneane, go to this site for sure! -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 15:42:37 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- Another good one -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 05:13:07 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Another good one -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 05:03:11 (GMT)

(Sir) David -:- God works in mysterious ways -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 02:44:29 (GMT)
__ dv -:- Your page would make a good leaflet to distribute -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 01:34:29 (GMT)
__ __ A.P. -:- dv-call me next time, I'll help you -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:22:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ dv -:- Roger that, AP.nt. -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:55:34 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Most disturbing for Mr Rawat and EV's officials? -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 14:08:24 (GMT)
__ __ VP -:- Most disturbing story ever -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 15:26:51 (GMT)
__ ham -:- What a gem you are Sir D! :) (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 05:29:37 (GMT)

Stonor -:- One man(?)'s websearch for 'meaning'(link) -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 02:12:33 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- Wow,thanks :) for link....nt -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 15:23:12 (GMT)
__ ham -:- Systems Ideas -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 05:23:06 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Your web search on 'qualia' -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 03:42:07 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Systems Ideas -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 15:27:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ ham -:- Beer and Viable Systems/'Platform for Change' -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 18:10:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Beer and Viable Systems/'Platform for Change' -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 18:52:19 (GMT)

Daneane -:- Unanswered Letters to EV -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 01:01:35 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- So Daneane I talked with the aspirant -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:38:54 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- Unanswered Letters to EV -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 16:09:25 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Like, you're going to find her answers -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 20:48:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Daneane -:- Like, you're going to find her answers -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 00:31:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Like, you're going to find her answers -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:47:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Jerry found me out -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 14:22:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Sure did -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:00:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Why ans you, if you don't read it?...(NT -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:10:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- What a baby,can't even read my post....NT -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:18:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- You're emotionalism is very revealing...nt -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:19:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moi Aussi -:- And So Is Yours......nt -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 16:09:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- And yes, I've had too much coffee,alright. NT -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:24:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- 'K Jerry,I'll leave,sorry to impose on Ur Forum(nt -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 05:02:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Just a suggestion, Daneane -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 13:37:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- Like, you're going to find her answers--nooo -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 23:47:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Spread it around -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 00:26:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Spread it around...ok -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 02:32:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Spread it around...ok -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:02:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- the crappy premie -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:32:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- the crappy premie -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 17:30:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- To SB - you asked -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:31:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- What the hell? Above post from Elaine ,sorry NT -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 04:28:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- What the hell?????????????? -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 05:49:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- the crappy premie -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:25:22 (GMT)
__ Hullo???? Are you kidding -:- Gee ,What a surprise!!!!! -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 02:36:50 (GMT)
__ __ Daneane -:- Yes, you're right -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 04:34:22 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Another premie illiterate -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 02:43:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- no I wanna sell my one year old corolla -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 04:07:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gErRy -:- very nice, very nice indeed, Selene -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 15:24:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- all I ever really wanted was one of those 67 -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 18:35:13 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- Unanswered Letters to Instructor -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 01:02:49 (GMT)
__ __ VP -:- Unanswered Letters to Instructor -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 14:20:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- 3 Continents -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 15:45:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Uh, Veep, she's off the hook, nice post, tho (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 15:30:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ VP -:- Uh, Veep, she's off the hook, nice post, tho (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 15:46:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- no arse about it -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 00:18:23 (GMT)
__ __ Daneane -:- Another unanswered to Instructor -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 01:04:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Daneane -:- Unanswered letters from Exes -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 01:05:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Unanswered letters from Exes -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 09:02:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ham -:- :) (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 05:36:18 (GMT)

hamzen shearerpants -:- Salutations to the Head of the Master (dot) -:- Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 21:43:01 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Wot a stroke of luck ! ( very OT ) -:- Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 21:57:08 (GMT)
__ __ Bobby Moore's Ghost -:- Oh Yeah.... -:- Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 22:23:23 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- Beckham, Scholes, Campbell tonight, Keown, -:- Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 22:21:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Hal -:- Beckham, Scholes, Campbell tonight, Keown, -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 14:58:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ham -:- Hee, hee, I'll pray for you hal, -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 15:23:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ hal -:- Hee, hee, I'll pray for you hamzen( way ot ) sorry -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:05:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- I bow to your superior wisdom Hal -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 00:37:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ selene -:- and it rained here for the first time in ages.. -:- Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 22:42:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ham -:- Ha,so you like s and m after all,when's the first -:- Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 22:56:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- because we can't Ham -:- Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 23:12:13 (GMT)

cq -:- To Keith, about hatred. -:- Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 19:32:42 (GMT)
__ O -:- To cq, about hatred. -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 21:39:01 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Now that's an interesting little seed you've sown -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 17:25:08 (GMT)
__ Lotus Eater -:- Emoting -:- Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 23:02:41 (GMT)
__ Keith -:- To Keith, about hatred. -:- Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 21:52:12 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- To Keith, about hatred. -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 18:10:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Keith -:- reconciliation. -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 00:17:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- To cq -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 20:36:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Wish it was you I'd had on the bench. -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 20:39:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ uh I can't say... -:- All day sucker -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 22:18:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Forgiveness - a question... -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 02:46:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Han -:- Forgiveness - No question... -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:02:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Forgiveness - No question... -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:20:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Han -:- Forgiveness - No question... -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:35:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Forgiveness - No question... -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:35:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ still can't say -:- OK, no wisecracks -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 03:45:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- OK, no wisecracks,thank you. -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:22:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ O -:- All day sucker -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 00:09:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- 'time for everyone to get real' - U2,O? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 18:49:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ O -:- Do you believe in magic? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 19:43:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Do you believe in magic? -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 04:50:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Do you believe in magic? -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 06:19:49 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- Don't know about hatred, but anger, -:- Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 23:06:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Keith -:- help me please doctor Ham! -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 00:05:44 (GMT)

gwh -:- Knowledge Realized -:- Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 18:37:56 (GMT)
__ Han -:- Knowledge Realized???? That's so Rich. -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 19:23:14 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- Not so rich as the great maha though (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 22:40:15 (GMT)
__ __ gwh -:- Knowledge Realized???? That's so Rich. -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 19:53:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Knowledge Realized???? That's so Rich. -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 20:37:50 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Knowledge Realized -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 16:02:40 (GMT)
__ __ gwh -:- Knowledge Realized -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 20:36:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gregg -:- Knowledge Realized -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:44:52 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- What's Dozgchen with Norbu??? -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 15:34:35 (GMT)
__ __ Han -:- As in the old Zen Saying,,,? -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 17:44:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- To Han:Your first impression... -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 21:55:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- I don't know -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 20:50:47 (GMT)
__ __ Rob -:- Elaine, here's a link -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 16:00:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- Thanks,Rob,but -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 16:13:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gwh -:- Thanks,Rob,but -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 20:52:43 (GMT)
__ (Sir) David -:- Knowledge Realized -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 02:30:51 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Knowledge Realized--so what does it mean? -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 02:30:27 (GMT)
__ __ gwh -:- Knowledge Realized--so what does it mean? -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 20:20:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Han -:- Knowledge Realized--so what does it mean? -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 22:33:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- Knowledge Realized--so what does it mean? -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 21:37:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Hey, I capiche !!! -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 20:47:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gwh -:- Hey, I capiche !!! -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 21:09:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Look Homeward Angel or is that You can't go home a -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 22:00:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Hey, I capiche !!! -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 21:54:01 (GMT)
__ __ VP -:- Great post, Helen-nt -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 14:33:00 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- As in the old zen saying, anyone who thinks -:- Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 21:53:45 (GMT)
__ __ gwh -:- As in the old zen saying, anyone who thinks -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 21:37:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ hamzen ciderface -:- Ever read any of Bashos poetry? -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 22:22:20 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Knowledge Realized -:- Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 21:35:26 (GMT)
__ __ gwh -:- Knowledge Realized -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 21:45:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Knowledge Realized -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 22:41:18 (GMT)
__ __ Elaine -:- Worship me? -:- Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 22:11:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ gwh -:- Worship me? -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 21:51:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- Feeling bitchy and insensitive yesterday? -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 07:32:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Feeling bitchy and insensitive yesterday? -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 14:58:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ To Elaine: -:- Get eyeglasses nt -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 02:25:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Aternoon tea-time? -:- Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 23:54:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Aternoon tea-time? -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 15:01:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Aternoon tea-time? -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 21:49:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Aternoon tea-time? -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 23:59:36 (GMT)
__ Curious -:- What is awakening? nt -:- Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 19:15:06 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- That's not the only thing Jagdeo 'transmitted' -:- Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 18:53:33 (GMT)
__ __ gwh -:- That's not the only thing Jagdeo 'transmitted' -:- Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 22:44:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rob -:- Thanks for coming back & replying -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 03:30:19 (GMT)


Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 02:04:32 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Did they take out Sir David's page AGAIN!!!
Message:
Just tried to go to his site, and get nothing but Geocity advertising.

Stonor

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:33:52 (GMT)
From: (Sir) David
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: My site was eliminated again
Message:
by the grace of Haharaji. (See post below) I've got mirror sites up and my web site can now be seen at a different location. Just go to Maharaji's (unofficial) Homepage and all parts of the site can be accessed from there.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 13:02:00 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: (Sir) David
Subject: Waht about your redirect link? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 13:44:19 (GMT)
From: (Sir) David
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I'll update that and other links today (nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 14:04:19 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: (Sir) David
Subject: I have another question for you Sir David
Message:
What are your website's most visited pages?

Maybe that would be interesting to have them on other websites too, if this is what readers are looking for.

As for mine for instance, the pages on the Radhasoami tradition and shabdism were (and are) the most visited pages. And lots of other websites give the link to those.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:43:16 (GMT)
From: (Sir) David
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Here's your answer Jean-Michel
Message:
Unfortunately I don't have current statistics for any pages except the main page, The Truth about Maharaji. Since my site has become nomadic, the old Geocities web counters have become useless.

However, before Shiva razed my site to the ground, the most popular pages were, Sex and scandal in Malibu, which is no surprise; What people think about Maharaji and also, Child abuse in Maharaji's cult was well read for more serious reasons.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 03:49:04 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Disregard above probably, it's confusing (nt)
Message:
Yes, it's Geocities
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 02:42:40 (GMT)
From: ThreadJacker
Email: glyng@techline.com
To: Stonor
Subject: I loathe the Media... Off Topic
Message:
John Swinton, the former chief of staff of the 'New York Times,' called by his peers, 'the dean of his profession', was asked in 1953 to give a toast before the New York Press Club. He responded with the following statement:

'There is no such thing, at this date of the world's history, in America, as an independent press. You know it and I know it. There is not one of you who dares to write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print.

'I am paid weekly for keeping my honest opinions out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the streets looking for another job. If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone.

'The business of the Journalist is to destroy truth; To lie outright; To pervert; To vilify; To fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell his country and his race for his daily bread. You know it and I know it and what folly is this toasting an independent press? We are the tools and vassals for rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and or lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes.'

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 18:55:36 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: ThreadJacker
Subject: I don't loathe all the Media... 2-edged sword
Message:
Hi Gerry,

So that'swhat a 'Threadjacker' is, I get it!

This problem extends far beyond the news media, IMO, into schooltextbooks for example, as well as into just about every field of human activity ('scientific research' too). Many people seem to believe that if something is in writing, that it must be TRUE. As if 'whatever-it-is' is also an omnipresent editor ;-) I challenged school and religious texts, especially the official interpretation of the latter, since an early age for some reason.

Nonetheless, it is important to recognize as well that especially in terms of the news media, some journalists have risked all in order to bring the truth to press. Some have lost their lives. And I do feel that we should take note (and find some hope) when gradually truth which has been repressed finally creeps inor the mainstream news. The correlations between the development of polio vaccines and the advent of AIDS is one that I noticed recently. This was discussed extensively in the alternative press a few years ago.

To bring this more on topic, this issue is of great relevance here with regard to freedom of speech on the web! 'Evil' comes in many guises!

Good post about an early whistleblower gErRy, thanks. And where did you find it?

Stonor

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:01:59 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: ThreadJacker
Subject: I loathe the Media... Off Topic (ot)
Message:
Are you trying to cheer me up? It won't work! (imagine a sarcasm emoticon).

Have you ever heard of a Mr. T. Sparklecake?

Stonor

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 00:06:46 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Forgiving Maharaji?
Message:
I am interested in the serious views of ex premies regarding what they would be satisfied with in order to forgive Maharaji?

Is 'he' saying sorry for past errors the main point?
Or would 'he' have to change something ?
Or would nothing he did or said really make a difference?
Where do you all stand on this?

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 21:57:09 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Forgiving Maharaji?
Message:
Dear Keith,
I have just read this post and the responses to it. I hope you enjoyed them too. In an earlier post of mine I said: 'okay so he's just an ordinary bloke and doesn't have a snowflakes chance in hell of addressing the phenomenal carnage left in the wake of his progress through life'. Just ceasing and desisting from his obsession with sucking more people in would be a great start. He might even then have time to start talking with us. In the meantime, I hope more premies will start talking on this forum, it helps us all. Don't be discouraged, Keith, by a few flying insults. In my personal opinion, your posts are becoming more precise and pithy, therefore easier to read and understand. LE
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 18:08:54 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Forgiving Yourself Keith
Message:
One of the hardest things Keith is forgiving oneself for being such a gullible fool as to believe that that guy was a true spiritual master.

I'm speaking from my own experience here of course but I really do think that that was the most diffi(cult) thing to admit to myself. I was taken in by a money grabbing Indian guy who took over the family business with one of his brothers ( after bitter disputes with his own mother and other brothers).

It's the toughest thing for the ego to accept , however , I consider it an essential part of breaking free to do accept the CON aspect. Try it Keith , otherwise you'll always feel attached to the cult.

Hal.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 07:06:45 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Retirement primarily, then we can help the other
Message:
sant mat exes
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:57:17 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Forgiving Maharaji?
Message:
There are three principles or conditions that m would have to satisfy before I could even begin to consider the question of 'forgiving Maharaji,' and I'll spell them out very briefly for you.

1) Confession, admission of guilt, acceptance and responsibility for his wrong doings.
Principally, m has been a leader of a destructive cult and that's been his primary wrongdoing.
Now, m can come out publically with all the mea culpas and 'gosh I'm sorry''s, and make'em all sound so good, but... it'll all be meaningless, if he doesn't accept the second principle or condition of his rehabilitation...

2)Compensation and reparation payments.
This stinking little cult has its share of victims of pedophilia, suicides, the travesty of the ashrams, people screwed in the building of m's financial empire and the debilitatating effect of longterm cult involvement.
Maharaji has to agree to a meaningful program of compensation and reparation payments, and a mechanism be put in place whereby prospective applicants can come forward and submit their case of greivance against m and the cult.

3)Democratization and future accountability of his organization
This is truly the only way for m to guarantee that he's sincere in reforming his organization and removing and guarding against cult like tendencies to creep back into the scene.
This must be done subject to third party scrutiny and inspection of outside organizations such as the American Family Foundation, human rights groups, etc., and m of course has to be willing to pay the shot for their services.
************************************

There it is in a nutshell, Keith. My threefold plan for m to rehabilitate himself and be worthy of forgiveness.

And if he succeeds? Well if he can forgive himself, that's whats important. And in that case , he could carry on with his life and his work as a 'meditation teacher'...heck, I couldn't care less.

Even the German people were able to recover from the horrible stigma brought about by Hitler and the Third Reich, by essentially satisfying these principles stated above, that in their situation, were pretty much forced on them by the outside world.

Which brings on the next question, at least in my mind.

How much civil, legal, activist pressure does m need, before he really feels compelled to have an honest discussion with his critics to deal with these three principles or conditions ?

Because if he ain't willing to discuss ALL THREE conditions... well as Public Enemy would say, you can,

Fuck the game if it ain't sayin' nothin'

That's how I see it. That's how I feel about it.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 01:28:22 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Forgiving Maharaji?
Message:
That's easy, Keith. A blanket admission that he's a fraud and a liar, give our money and his possesions to the charity of OUR choice and go back to India in sack cloth and ashes.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 00:38:23 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Forgiving Maharaji?
Message:
Wouldn't forgiving M be on the same type of level as feeling close to M at satellite presentations?? I mean, nobody has any real type of personal relationship with him.

It seems more to me like he would be some sick, finally remorseful creature, begging upon the compassion and forgiveness of other humans.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 11:26:46 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Forgiving Maharaji?
Message:
The 'conditions' under which you would forgive Maharaji in the posts above are not to be taken seriously. They may be examples of how you feel, expressed with imagination, but are too extreme to offer any real hope of reconciliation. It seems therefore that many ex's don't really want a resolution. Is that so? Be honest,please! If Maharaji made a move towards you. Say ,he said ok, let's talk! Lets look at everything. My past. My present. Your criticisms. Would you feel inclined to really listen to him too? Haven't you already summed him up? Tied him up with 'collectively ' produced images? Is it not so that anything positive said about Maharaji is considered total junk? And that just about anything negative (even if it's ludicrous ) said about him is responded to with glee? And if someone has the temirity to question this seeming 'stuck' pattern ,is not the fury or ridicle or hostility turned onto them too? Or of course there can be the 'silent treatment'. What I'm feeling is that this vendetta against Maharaji has more motivation than people are able or willing to realise or confess. It is too extreme. Why? It reminds me sometimes of the English soccer hooligans running rampage.
This is one strain of the forum for me. But it defeats its own purpose,imo. Arguments become so 'dreamlike'. So silly. Like immature schoolkids behind the school shed. It's easy to be tempted to join in. Someone doesn't like what I say and tells me to fuck off. Or tries to show what a stupid ,empty headed arsehole I am. Or labels me ,stereotypes me , throws mud knowing that here, some will stick. Or add to the consensus that 'one' is a self obsessed fool wasting everyone's time. Piss off! Fuck off! becomes the mantra. So there seems to be a very narrow laneway. Walk within this narrow space or run the risk of being kicked out or made to look a demented idiot. Unlike those who rule the roost. None of the derogatory insights concerning those who step out of line apply to the 'in-group'. The in group can express themselves freely with impunity. But this freedom is by invitation only. For the rebels who do not conform to this standard , woe behold , if they dare to trespass. It's kind of tragic. It's so typical of so much human behavior. No wonder we are in the mess we are. Off my chest now. I can breath a little easier. I'm ready. Crucify me!
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 19:01:36 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Forgiving Maharaji?
Message:
The 'conditions' under which you would forgive Maharaji in the posts above are not to be taken seriously. They may be examples of how you feel, expressed with imagination, but are too extreme to offer any real hope of reconciliation.

The measures suggested are entirely realistic, if you honestly place them in the context of Mr Rawat's crimes against the Good (for stealing the love that is rightfully due to That); against humanity (for stealing and privatising yogic techniques that belong to all the world); and against thousands of individuals and their families (for obtaining goods, money and services by false pretenses).

False gods who have lived the life of Reilly on thier deceit for decades have a lot of work to do if they want to rejoin - be reconciled with - the human race. I do not think Mr Rawat has the emotional honesty and depth to come to terms with his victims - just because he cannot come to terms with his own actions and their consequences

Since the dawn of humanity overweening pride; conceit; hubris has caused the destruction of those who cannot acknowledge their mistakes and own the consequences of their actions. It is likely Mr Rawat's hubris will cause his destruction.

To avoid this consequence (this Karma, you might say) he needs to accept responsibility for his own evils. It is up to Mr Rawat to get out of the way of the whirlwind he has sown.

Don't get caught in the sinking ship.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:02:01 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Forgiveness does not help
Message:
I find the whole point of 'forgiving' meaningless. I am able to forgive only for my own sake, not for the sake of others, whose lives he has destroyed.

And - I can only forgive a person who sincerely feels and admits that he has done something terribly wrong. Prem Pal is not at that point, and probably never will be.

I agree with Joey's points. Prem Pal should take full responsibility, legal and economical, for what he has done.
For all the lives he has destroyed, for all the money he has fooled from people. In fact, IMHO, he is a criminal and should really be in jail.

I do not hate him anymore, I did hate him in the early 80s, for the damage he did to my family, and to my friends. But I got over it. I stopped thinking about him altogether. Now, when I think about him, I only feel disgust. He, and everything he stands for, is disgusting to me.

I have nothing against the premies, I only feel sorry for them.
And I hope they get a safe landing, when the truth about Prem Pal dawns on them.

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 18:58:51 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: This ring a bell for anyone?
Message:
From Michael Rogge's website: 'On the psychology of spiritual movements'
http://www.xs4all.nl/~wichm/psymove.html

Jeffrey Masson has this to say about gurus:

'Every guru claims to know something you cannot know by yourself or through ordinary channels.

All gurus promise access to a hidden reality if only you will follow their teaching, accept their authority, hand your life over to them. Certain questions are off limits.

There are things you cannot know about the guru and the guru's personal life. Every doubt about the guru is a reflection of your own unworthiness, or the influence of an external evil force. The more obscure the action of the guru, the more likely it is to be right, to be cherished.

Ultimately you cannot admire the guru, you must worship him. You must obey him, you must humble yourself, for the greater he is, the less you are - until you reach the inner circle and can start abusing other people the way your guru abused you. All this is in the very nature of being a guru.'

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 17:38:23 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: E-mail sent to you today
Message:
Greetings FA,

I just sent an e-mail to you using the link above. Is it current? I seem to remember another. Also, it seems that e-mailing to a link leaves me no record of it, and would appreciate your leaving what I wrote in your response. I also wonder if you get my return e-mail address that way, although I'm quite certain that you do. If there is another address could you please post it again?

Thank you,

Stonor.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:06:32 (GMT)
From: FA
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Replied today (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 17:39:28 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: PS: Above post to FA (nt)
Message:
PS Above post to FA (nt)
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 18:11:24 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: PS: Also FA, . . .
Message:
I did find it in my 'Sent' box, but way back in the middle, not the most recent.

I'm looking forward to hearing from you and finding a way to resolve this as quietly as possible, but I will listen to your recommendations and do whatever is necessary.

Sincerely,

Stonor

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 22:51:58 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: PS: Also FA, . . .
Message:
Hi Stonor,

Thanks for the communication. It's only co-pilot forum elf on duty this evening - a bit new to the job and I haven't read your email 'coz they haven't given me the magic keys yet, and am not sure whether or not the above mailbox is active. I'll check it out and get back to you tomorrow.

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 23:09:19 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Thanks FA2, sorry, forgot - (ot)
Message:
but at least it is rather clearly not about m . . .
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 23:32:50 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Hey, don't worry! and what did you forget?
Message:
We have a special category of post, neither on or off-topic, which is about the forum itself. (The standard abbreviation by which you should mark these is 'AdminIHateU' which translates as: 'a direct missive I now invite host attendants to evaluate uncritically' :))
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 14:15:39 (GMT)
From: Rev John Hammond-Smyth
Email: pulpit@church.com
To: Everyone
Subject: David and Goliath
Message:
And it cam to pass that the boy (Sir) David built an temple unto the Lord God in human form and many children of ex-premie.org didst come and wonder at the sights therein. Indeed, even the Children of Prem didst frequent that place for the web counter didst shew it to be true.

And there came into the land, a fierce and mighty giant whose name was Goliath of Haharaji's Lawyers and he didst smite down the temple of the boy David and destroy all remnants of that holy place. And alas the giant didst also go to the Temple of Drek and knock down the walls and shattered all the holy icons with big boobies and shrines unto the Lord.

And there was a great tribulation and a wailing and gnashing of teeth amongst the children of ex-premie.org and then a giant cloud didst descend which was the shadow of the giant and he didst smite with his sword at the very heart of the temple of DLM/Elan Vital Papers and didst burn all the scriptures therein until no trace was left.

And the Lord Haharaji didst celibrate in the kingdom of his kitchen and didst light up a Malboro and drink a goblet of the holy water of Cognac and didst say unto Guru Charnanand - See how easily mine enemies do crumble. For it is written in the DLM/Elan Vital Papers that I have come with more power than ever before!

And Charnanand didst bow low before his Lord because he knew which side his bread was buttered and he didst praise and fawn and kiss his feet because he was a shining eggsample of the Lord's knowledge.

And these things didst happen at the start of the new age in the forty second year of our Lord's reign. And the battle between Lord Haharaji and the children of ex-prem didst rage on as it is written in the next chapter...

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 14:28:20 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Rev John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Nice one Rev. ! NT
Message:
gj
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 15:07:22 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: I for one,have sorely missed you, welcome back rev
Message:
, heh and no rushing back to your isolation cell this time, you've got too much to offer this place!

In fact it's so good you're back I think I'll do a one person communion with a disco biscuit.

Praise the lord!

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:54:32 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: I for one,have sorely missed you, welcome back rev
Message:
I did indeed experience the knashing of the teeth when my links were not responding. I get to the forum by way of your sites.
I still can use the anything goes forum link. Horay for that.
I get to the forum by way of your and JM's sites. I dont use a direct link. Just my habit.

Glad to see you posting!

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 12:15:43 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: KATIE - please send me your email address....
Message:
Thanks
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 13:32:35 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: MEL - here it is!
Message:
Not a secret. What's up?
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 08:23:37 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Happy Father's Day
Message:
Hey guys, all you dad's that love your kids and try to do your best for them and I know there are a lot of you here. This day's for you.
Wish I could make up a decent poem on the spot but...ain't gonna happen, not at 4:18 am! :) I thought to do this just after midnight and spaced it right out so wanted to do it now before I forget again.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:57:43 (GMT)
From: Bill
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Happy Father's Day
Message:
Thanks Robyn!
If I was still stuck in the lord of the universes cult, I would be torn thinking I should be at the FATHERS DAY with the lord cult programming function.

SO I say horray to the forum for helping me out. I would not have made it successfully without it.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:28:02 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Bill
Subject: Happy Father's Day
Message:
Dear Bill,
So as I scann down the list and realize the bickering that goes on without even reading it makes me think that reading it all, getting to know the details is really a waste of my time but then seeing your post reminds me what this place is really about and that it is succesfull many times over. Thanks for that, I know you had a great day. Back to sleep for me. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 22:33:48 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Happy Father's Day/robyn/gregg
Message:
thanks Robyn! Gary and Colleen are bonding downstairs, watching Tiger Woods beat the pants off of everyone at the U.S. open. I beleive dads are incredibly important, more important than we can know (although study after study says how important they really are).

Happy dad's day everyone!

gregg--your daughter is the same age as mine, and ain't it the truth, seeing those glimmers of a budding teeny bopper....I am hoping, (praying) that she doesn't grow up too fast. 8 is a terrific age so far.

have a great summer--as far as I am concerned teachers need the summer off because they are half dead with fatigue by the time summer rolls around! At least that was my experience the one (count 'em) one year total that I taught high school. I have enormous respect for teachers. Have a great summer and don't even think about work!

Helen

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 15:52:35 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: To Robyn, Marianne, other cyberfriends...
Message:
Thanks, R. My daughter made me breakfast in bed this morning, brought it in w/ a flower from the garden...she's eight and can do stuff like that without help from Mom. When kids get older you start getting a little nostalgic for the younger years...esp. now that she is officially what is nauseatingly referred to by the media/corporations as a 'tween' and is bombarded with advertisements aimed at her demographic group cuz we're not a TV-free hippie household...so when she dresses teddy bears in cute little frocks, I like it, and can see the day coming when she won't be doing that little-girl stuff at all.

That said, I do have tickets for the upcoming Britney Spears concert. She is way into that kind of music and choreographs dance routines with her friends...

A week more in Denver, then Maine for two weeks, NM for a week, then back in Denver, take some classes...ah, a teacher's summer!

Love,
Gregg

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 17:01:33 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: To Robyn, Marianne, other cyberfriends...
Message:
Dear Gregg,
If my life was not in the midst of total upheavel at the moment I'd offer to meet you and yours in the Maine area, hard to pass up an opportunity when you'd be this close, I am in Northern Central Pennsylvania. Oh well, enjoy and bring your winter coat! It is COLD here today!
I remember those 'little girl days', my own and my daughters'. In a big way I'd love to go back too but each phase has it's good points and now, at least with my oldest we are very good friends which is wonderful too! ENJOY! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 05:51:30 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Stop press. I am loosing it because
Message:
someone has stolen my box of vaccuum cleaner bags. This is serious and I want them found. Anyne having information of thier whereabouts will git a thousand dollars.
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 05:55:40 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Zelda????!!!! (OT?)
Message:
And I thought I was having trouble with my new hard software (pun intended)

And you don't want to know about my vacuum - it's not even a Hoover joke!

Stonor wondering what kind of vacuum you have, because I'm sure I can find the box of them someone stole as soon as the stores open.

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 06:33:10 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Zelda????!!!! (OT?)
Message:
hi stonor i am vry upset you know. It has been two days that these vaccuum cleaner bags have been missing I have looked EVERYWHERE.

I have turned the house upside down and had to take a break and post the notice here since my friends here are not taking me seriously and the police refuse to put out an APB

Its a Meile Black Jewel the prettiest vaccum cleaner you would ever want to see.

thank you for being so caring. Its nice to know I am not the only one with a problem out there.

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 04:26:40 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: You have simply got to check this out!!!
Message:
Sarlo's Guru Rating Service

link: http://www.globalserve.net/~sarlo/Ratings.htm

A rundown of just about every guru on the planet, with 'star' ratings, bio and alt. links.

Follow 'M' link in A-Z selection for our dearly beloved's rating. (I won't spoil it by posting it here) Even gives links to this website!!

Thanks to Stonor, I found this link at a veritable cornucopia of scientific and mystical website links at http://onebehindthemany.tripod.com/

Another site linked from there is an essay: 'Traumatic Abuse in Cults: An Exploration of an Unfamiliar Social Problem'. This is at http://hometown.aol.com/shawdan/essay.htm

I'm sure there are many other goodies to be found, for all you insomniacs out there:)

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 15:42:37 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Daneane, go to this site for sure!
Message:
Rob, thanks for sharing. What a laugh! I had no idea there were so many gurus out there.

According to this we should all be following Oso-- we blew it! Is it too late?! snicker

Loved Maharaji's rating. Can it be linked to this site?
VP

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 05:13:07 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Another good one
Message:
Hope JM & (Sir) Dave can log these:

Gurus: Good, Bad and Indifferent

LinK:- http://www.kheper.auz.com/topics/gurus/index.html

Complete with copyright-infringing picture and praise for ex-premie.org website!!

Sample text:

'I've only heard Guru Maharaji speak once, some years ago. It was in a big auditorium. I was invited there by a friend, a fellow by the name of Keith [surely not OUR Keith?....Rob] who was also a devotee of Swamiji . Listening to Guru Mahaji talk, I felt he was a nice guy (or at least he had a nice manner about him) even if a little too slick. He certainly didn't strike me as enlightened. He was no more Guru than you or I. The audience were almost all devotees ready to jump up kiss his backside in an instant. When one woman, an middle aged lady, stood up and said something critical to Maharaji, he quickly put her in her place with some reply (I dont even remeber what the question was, or his reply, except it was nothing fancy). The whole auditorium laughed and cheered and clapped at that. Sad really....

I looked up some stuff on the Web for links when I was making this page. Seems like everything on Mahaji is pretty negative. That fellow has a PR problem alright! ;-)'

Kinda says it all really!

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 05:03:11 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Another good one
Message:
That parade of lords in waiting for devotees just makes me shake my head to think of the vien of stupidity I managed to embrace.

Oh to be VP and just have a glanceing blow of this life wrecker.
(Not to downplay his family involvement!)

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 02:44:29 (GMT)
From: (Sir) David
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: God works in mysterious ways
Message:
For yet again, God in human form, Maharaji, has demolished my web site. I can't think why. Ah, perhaps this is a test, you know, I build a web site in praise of the Lord and then he knocks it down to make me detached from the fruits of my actions.

I am learning Maharaji. I'm not angry now. I will just meekly and humbly build it again from scratch and not complain at all. In fact, I realise that this is your lila with me, your grace; and Lord, I do not deserve such a bountiful gift from you, to have my web site demolished continually by you.

O Lord, I am so grateful for destruction of my web site and showing me how much you love me. I seek not for your knowledge but only to continue to keep building my web site in honour of you, for the rest of my life and each time you destroy it Lord, I will thank you most appreciatively for your love and mercy and will rebuild it yet again.

So Maharaji, Click here to go to my new web site in honour of you

and I await with love and bliss for you to play your lila with me and destroy it yet again. I think Mahatma Guru Charnanand will be able to tell a story about this to the new aspirants...

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 01:34:29 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: (Sir) David
Subject: Your page would make a good leaflet to distribute
Message:
at the next program. Every time there is another program in Miami, I get hyped up about doing something about it, but then I'm so busy (as usual) with my business that it take no effort to drop m to the bottom of my priority list. I guess I'm just not devoted enough!
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:22:34 (GMT)
From: A.P.
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: dv-call me next time, I'll help you
Message:
and I'm in MIAMI, With lots of premie contacts. I've always wanted to do something also.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:55:34 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: A.P.
Subject: Roger that, AP.nt.
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 14:08:24 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: (Sir) David
Subject: Most disturbing for Mr Rawat and EV's officials?
Message:
Read all the details on Jagdeo’s international paedophilic tours

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 15:26:51 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Most disturbing story ever
Message:
That story made me ill.

How can the premies justify this? Because it's 'normal' in India? Because their culture is different and we don't understand? Because it's lila? Because Maharaji had no control over Jadego? PLEASE! There is NO excuse for what happened to these children.
Excuse me now, I have to go vomit.

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 05:29:37 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: (Sir) David
Subject: What a gem you are Sir D! :) (nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 02:12:33 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: everyone (and ham G Rob)
Subject: One man(?)'s websearch for 'meaning'(link)
Message:
I don't know if anyone has posted this link before, but I found it a good overview and reference on many issues discussed here. IMO well worth checking out - it's big.

Evolution/Involution of Consciousness

Stonor

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 15:23:12 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Wow,thanks :) for link....nt
Message:
om
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 05:23:06 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Systems Ideas
Message:
Stonor, between you & g

I'm gonna need a life extension of at least ten years if this carries on!

An interesting site, the shamanic sites I checked seemed par for the course, the physiological sites on the effects of medittation etc were well worth it, the mystical/religious sites I refused to visit,

but but but

of the others a high % were infused with systems/self-referencing ideas, ie the consciousness/AI/complex systems/systems anthropology/systems ecology sites, and they were like seeing people trying to re-invent the wheel when we are now at the ferrari stage.
I blame this on the AI people who sold out to the funding organizations who did not have a clue about 2nd order systems(self referencing systems) and wanted easily understandable, modular systems that were more easily researched.
This had great benefits in computer terms, but inevitably led nowhere in terms of truly intelligent/conscious machines (lot of literature on why this was inevitable).

This meant that when the mystic/esalen crowd started trying to deal with the problems of self referencing systems they too had no idea they were also trying to re-invent the wheel, and drifted into the very speculative sexy stuff like karl bohm, pribram (ie consciousness as a hologram) etc, or periphery stuff like prigogine, jansch etc (emergent systems in simple physical terms, eg chaotic systems like water flow etc).

So here goes a list of what I consider relevant in these topic areas, and this is mostly textbooks, so anyone who wants to follow up will have to do their own werb search if they want it in www format

Popular Reads On 2nd order systems(self referencing systems)

Capra-’The Turning Point” - his first approach to systems thinking in terms of social change/holistic thinking/mystical experience/ecology/feminism.
In real systems terms pretty weak, although the bibliography will point you in the right direction. If you’re pretty new age, but starting to try to think for the first time in years, and have problems with the scientific/technological approach but finding yourself trying to rationalize and use the scientific method, this is ideal, gets you pointing in an interesting direction, but is not too threatening. Capra himself has had mystical experiences, suspect he’s done drugs (not a lot), is a sixties generation person, and a nuclear physicist. He wrote the Tao of Physics, excellent intro to relativity theory & quantum mechanics for mystics, more scientifically sound than Ken Wilber.

Capra-”The Web of Life” - as above, especially complex systems self-referencing systems and gaia theory, but much sounder & less flaky than The Turning Point (even Californian’s develop, if more slowly than most others!)

Social Systems/Management

Peter Checkland - “Soft Systems Methodology”
THE systems book for social systems where there are ‘wicked’ ie human problems,
ideal way of analysing situations, either personal, social or organizational. Links deep systems thinking with philosophy (Habermas), not difficult, and VERY practical

‘Self Organisation & Management of Social Systems’- pub. Springer Verlag, editors Ulrich/Probst, excellent intro to deep systems thinking in a social context from a number of perspectives from a wide cybernetics background from a number of different authors

Anything by Stafford Beer, a social scietist imbued with deep systems ideas, who incidentally was building a national computer based fast feedback system for the Chilean government when Allende was murdered, a real loss, both Allende & Beers system


Systems Thinking/Biology/Evolution

Maturana/Varela - ‘The Tree of Knowledge-The Biological Roots of Human Understanding” - very difficult to read (as Jerry will attest), but if you can get it deep, deep, deep & life transforming.

AI/Systems Thinking/Philosophy/Buddhist Meditation

Varela/Thompson/Rosch - ‘The Embodied Mind - Cognitive Science and Human Experience” - self explanatory, and for philosophy, quite readable, and very subtle.

Topic areas to explore

Cybernetics
2nd order cybernetics
Self organization
Non-equilibrium systems
Auto-poeisis
Autology
Emergent systems

Individuals to check out

Heinz Von Foerster, anything I’ve ever read of his, was stimulating, FUN, very deep & psychologically challenging, and a SUPERB communicator, and it could be argued, the godfather of cybernetics

Humberto Maturana - an awful communicator, but English is not his main language,

Francesco Varela

Peter Checkland

G.Spencer - Brown, if you’re into maths & self-reference, invaluable,

Gregory Bateson- heavily imbued with a deep systems approasch, multi discilplinary

I personally found all these authors, and others invaluable in untangling myself from the web of deceit that gm practices, which even though knowledge worked superbly for me, meant I was able to specify logically why gm was a fraud, and his organizational structure was logically flawed from top to bottom, and what he would have done if he had been genuine.

But having broken free, and still certain of the relevance of my experiences, needed to understand the general processes of what was happening to me in a way that no route that I had read could even remotely get to grips with, without a religious faith. Since I was now doubting everything, .......
Thew experiences are still totally relevant for me,
and I found a genuinely third way of approaching these experiences & linking them with working out why this planet and the human race was fucked, and what would have to change & how if we were to save it & us without going into it’s relevance in a number of other areas.

It is no accident that a majority of the sites you mentioned are drifting into systems territory, another day for that one!
It is now 6 am and I’m going to bed!

If anything here, most likely to be the Capra books, saves anyone the time I had to waste searching around this typing will have been well worth it


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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 03:42:07 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Your web search on 'qualia'
Message:
Your web search on 'qualia' gave new meaning to the term 'qualia freaks'.
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 15:27:39 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Systems Ideas
Message:
Hi ham!

I could barely scan this last night (earlier this morning?). I've now transferred your post to my personal files. The 'systems' stuff is taking me back to my educational technology days. Checkland seems to have left a bad taste in my mouth in that context, but Stafford Beer? Now there's a man I'd marry (only an expression of mine - some people don't know how to take it!). I used to cry with relief reading some of his papers for the philosophy of ed tech course. No joke!

I'm a bit too preoccupied with other things right now to do your post justice. . . my apologies . . . but you've hit on something relevant to my larger current literacy project, unfortunately it will take a bit of time for me to figure out exactly what. I want to pull out my Beer papers. He fell into disfavor I remember, but I can't remember exactly why, although I could guess it's because most cannot accept a 'black box' in any context. He coined the 'black box' idea in system 'flow charts,' if I remember correctly. I could send you a paper or two on this topic when I finally re-load everything. I think I wrote something that was Capra like in one of those, and found out after the fact. Isn't that 'black box' concept at the root of what you and G are discussing at times? I'll go back and read the papers I have of his sometime so that we can discuss this properly - it's been over 10 years.

Edward T. Hall (time, culture) and David A Kolb (experiential learning) came to mind as well as I read your post.

Forget the 10 year extension! I've known I'll need at least a few more lives to follow all the threads from this one, but unfortunately I can't be sure that it works that way.

Thanks for a very interesting post. Oceans really do get in the way of a good conversation sometimes, don't they? :-(

Stonor

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 18:10:19 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Beer and Viable Systems/'Platform for Change'
Message:
Alright stoner, sorry couldn't resist the spelling, but I'm going clean at the mo, guess it's still in the head!

Checkland seems to have left a bad taste in my mouth in that context, but Stafford Beer? Now there's a man I'd marry (only an expression of mine - some people don't know how to take it!). I used to cry with relief reading some of his papers for the philosophy of ed tech course. No joke!

Can't believe you'vew come across Checkland & Beer, that's fucking excellent. Did you ever read Beers Platform for Change, the one with the different coloured pages. I think that should be mandatory reading before the start of any degree course!

Can't believe how badly they teach Checkland sometimes, frightening really, on e of the main reasons I walked out of my systems degree was exactly that, Checkland's SSM is just such a useful & creative tool for any area where thinking is taking place, and they ruined it, and well what they did to Stafford Beer's viable systems was a joke, but then my degree course from a systems perspective was a complete joke, and basically they lied their balls off to get me on the course, assuming I'd stick with it for career & money reasons. Although walking did me no favours it was beautiful seeing how they reacted when I walked!

I'm a bit too preoccupied with other things right now to do your post justice. . . my apologies . . . but you've hit on something relevant to my larger current literacy project, unfortunately it will take a bit of time for me to figure out exactly what. I want to pull out my Beer papers. He fell into disfavor I remember, but I can't remember exactly why, although I could guess it's because most cannot accept a 'black box' in any context. He coined the 'black box' idea in system 'flow charts,' if I remember correctly.

Within management science stuff he's still big time, even our small local college of further ed has copies of some of his Viable management books. Within the systems community he lost favour because his technical approach ie Viable Systems is a bit too techno and soulless, especially not so useful for messy/'wicked' problems where Checklands SSM comes into its own. Really, SSM is the best brainstorming tool I know, and so flexible if handled properly.
But as a person, can completely understand your reaction to Beer, what a character, never got to meet him during my time in the Systems Community. Have you ever read any of C.West Churchmans stuff?
Yeah Beer was hot on black boxes, but really they are no more than saying at some levels of complex feedback it's impossible to differentiate what exactly is affecting what, so black box it.
His Viable ~Systems approach was heavily built upon Maturana & Varelas work, such a shame Allende didn't get a chance to implement that system. He'd have been 30 years plus ahead of any other government in terms of fast accurate accurate economic information! What a fucking world eh!

I could send you a paper or two on this topic when I finally re-load everything. I think I wrote something that was Capra like in one of those, and found out after the fact. Isn't that 'black box' concept at the root of what you and G are discussing at times? I'll go back and read the papers I have of his sometime so that we can discuss this properly - it's been over 10 years.
Edward T. Hall (time, culture) and David A Kolb (experiential learning) came to mind as well as I read your post.

Neither Hall or Kolb have I come across before, got any titles?


Thanks for a very interesting post. Oceans really do get in the way of a good conversation sometimes, don't they? :-(

thanks for that, do sometimes wonder if it isn't too off-topic for most here, even though for me it has been DIRECTLY relevant and made it so much easier to walk from the Prawns oily grip.
Wish you could have been there when I had discussions with instructors using systems logic to rip them to shreds, SO funny!!
And VERY instructive.

Have you ever read any of Winograd, Flores, Lakoff or Johnson? in the 'Embodied Mind' by Varela/Thompson/Rosch, they are mapped as being very much in this enative/constructivist position with special emphasis to linguistics.

Re oceans in the way, yeah, especially wqhen income is so low. This end calls are so expensive it's not possible, but someone I know in the US, not rolling in it, is getting such low rates for long distance calls she can buzz me and stay on for an hour, cause by then we're just getting going, guess we should just be thankful for the net.

Still can't believe I've found someone on this site who not only knows Beers stuff, but liked it. That's close to magical to me, well as close to magical as I'll ever get now!

luv ya
ham

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 18:52:19 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Beer and Viable Systems/'Platform for Change'
Message:
Hi again ham,

Must be the full moon - how many hours sleep did you get? I stopped worrying about it years ago . . . 12 hours is okay, and 0 too, on occasion, but wouldn't want to do a triple 0 in a row again (my personal (drug-free) record, writing final papers in the late seventies).

Still don't have much free head space, but VERY briefly to answer your specific question (and sorry for not activating the links):

Hall

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Brianvanderhorst/edward_t_hall_great_.htm

Not sure about this one and its linking of Hall to NLP. And I don't fit into either the mono or polychronic box. (hmmmm, what does that mean ?)

Here's an excerpt from The Dance of Life, The Other Dimension of Time

http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/SynRyth.html

And here's a biblio

http://www2.soc.hawaii.edu/css/dept/com/resources/intercultural/Hall.html

Kolb

http://flash.lakeheadu.ca/~kbrown/F2250%20Webpages/kolbs_learning_cycle.html

http://www.nene.ac.uk/oesd/th2expo.htm

These links REALLY don't do justice to him at all. I don't think many people get it. And both Kolb and Hall are much better in their own words. 'Experiential Learning' is THE Kolb book, but it costs almost 100 dollars Canadian, so I don't have it on my shelf . . yet. I do have a photocopy of a mandala he designed somewhere and will scan it when I find it - hopefully by then I will be scanning like a pro - so far I'm still stuck.

Luv ya too,

Stonor

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 01:01:35 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Unanswered Letters to EV
Message:
E-mailed April 15th to the Local Aspirant Contact

Hey Fred,

I was wondering what you know about the anti-M sites on the web.
You know the people on it? I'm reading lots of conflicting stuff -rumours of alcoholism, child molestation, wild parties and various other decadence.

You ever live in an ashram? I lot of ex-ashram premies are saying M let them eat up debts and made them live in sub-standard conditionsbecause of all the 'service' they did.

Does M really own large corporations? You know about the fund
raising for Amaroo?? I've heard that it is not nearly enough and its been postponed again. Do you give money to him? Do other premies?

Do M or instructor's ever talk about this? Is it possible for me
to send an email Susan Johnson, that instructor I saw a month or so ago? I'd like to ask her about all this.

I don't get a lot of this stuff. It seems like what M is talking
about in videos and what premies and ex-premies think or believe is totally different stuff. Do premies really believe M is Lord? Do they still really wait in line to pay him money and kiss his feet?

I've talked with an ex-instructor who gave me a lot of EV
paperwork...what kind of stuff do you, as Aspirant contact, have to tell them about me? Stuff like that makes me feel like I'm being judged. If knowledge is a gift, why am I being sized up as to whether I get it or not?

You know, I really freaked with that 'asking for knowledge' thing. It felt to me like some sort of screening process. I don't understand why I would have to talk about how I feel or don't feel to a bunch of strangers and be graded on it. What would that really do to focus my believes or opinions about M and this 'knowledge' he professes? Don't ya get bored of all those videos? So many seem to say the same stuff. Doesn't it bug ya that he seldoms speaks live anymore? Doesn't the expense of those 'Satellite' broadcasts burden you financially? Wasn't
this last one stuff from the knowledge review in Irvine anyway? You going to the knowledge review in Miami?

Are there premies who are still followers that have doubts? Why doesn't M acknowledge them?

What do all these new instructor's do anyway if they can't teach
'knowledge'?

I'd be interested in any info you could provide. Are there other
people I should ask?? Could I contact them via email? The tapes I've seen really haven't addresses any of this.

Thanks. - dg

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:38:54 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: So Daneane I talked with the aspirant
Message:
contact person in my city today. I'm sorry I didn't have your letters on me at the time :(

However I told her about them. And asked what she would do.She wholeheartedly wanted me to get them to her and then said' You know I don't feel qualified to answer any questions like your saying - I would tell her I was sending them on to an instructor.'

I said, Well she hasn't gotten any response at all fr anybody I gathered. At least you would be courteous enuf to tell her you were sending them to someone else. That's something anyway.

So that's what you would have gotten in my town. I thought it was honest of her.

I think it's very rude that your local person hasn't contacted you. If I read your post right.

Elaine

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 16:09:25 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Unanswered Letters to EV
Message:
Daneane,
I printed out all your letters here and plan to give them to my friend in my city who is now in 'charge' of the aspirants. (6 from our city just rec'd k in LA like last wk or so.)

She needs to be aware of possible questions people will have.

I didn't find out much about the session itself bec - they were pretty mellow upon their return - you know it's a seed and all.
( and I only know 2 of them anyway)

But when I find out anything I thought I'd let people here know reactions. I know that a 69 yr old (that I saw last night but asked nothing of) said she has searched 'everywhere' and she really felt maybe this was going to be it. May I add,she is no way into a cult thing or worshipping anyone. She wanted the techniques was what I gathered.And was told she wasn't born yesterday and would walk the minute she sensed it was a 'fellowship' thing.

I do know that there was a big screen in a nice comfortable hotel conf type rm and M sat in the back and also behind the screen while it was showing the techs. The girl who told me said she was glad it was so clear and the screen so big. It seemed all the instructors were there and checking on everyone's positions and the whole thing was just so mellow and sweet and she didn't want it to end. She said it was the first time ever she was so peaceful.

Maybe more later.
Elaine

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 20:48:51 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Like, you're going to find her answers
Message:
Elaine, what does the fact that 6 people from your city rec'd k last week, an old woman would walk if she detected a 'fellowship thing', or the way k was revealed, have anything to do with Daneane's concerns about allegations of inappropriate behavior on M's part?

Don't you see you've just glossed over her concerns with an evasive response? People don't like that. When they ask specific questions, they expect and should get specific answers, not glossy runarounds, such as you just gave. And just what is your 'friend' going to do to help Daneane get the answers to the questions she has? At best, if she isn't aware of the allegations, herself, and is interested, she can start her own fruitless quest for answers, because you know and I know, that anybody that asks these questions just gets stonewalled, the very same way you just stonewalled Daneane.

I'd like to tell you FU Elaine, but I've got a problem cursing out women. But you'd deserve it if I did.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 00:31:05 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Like, you're going to find her answers
Message:
Jerry....there you go jumping on someone's post again!!! Can I call you Jim jr.??
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:47:26 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Like, you're going to find her answers
Message:
Daneane, to me Elaine is as phony as they come. She plays the independent, thinks for herself, 'bad' premie, but she's really a cult apologist. Why do you think she went on about the k session and what a peaceful experience it was for this indiviual, if not to entice you to go through one yourself? What does that have to do with what you want to know about M and his shady dealings? Are you really happy that she's going to give your letters to her friend, like that's going to find you the answers you're looking for? What do you think her cult drenched friend is going to do with those letters, besides maybe burn them or throw them in the garbage?

Here's my suggestion to you, Daneane. You escaped the cult. Count your blessings, and move along. This site is primarily for people who got sucked into the cult and are, fortunately, regaining their senses in the aftermath of that long hell. I doubt you could ever know the relief a real cult member feels when they feel the bonds of cult membership slipping away after years of being duped by it. No, I don't think you could ever know that. I'm glad you found this site and have been helped by it, but don't tell me about jumping all over some cult apologist phony's posts. I've earned my right to do just that and relish every opportunity to do it, and will continue to do it for as long as I damned well please.

My name's Jerry, not Jim Jr.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 14:22:05 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Jerry found me out
Message:
Oh my God - you found out my insipid,secret agenda - YES to entice Daneane into receiving 'The Knowledge' by telling her verbatim what someone said after being in a session.If only I had told her something like that sooner. She would have left this place and run into the safe arms of her local premies. Yes, what I fool I am.

And what a reason to receive Knowledge because some old lady said she never felt so peaceful. I'm sure Daneane is now going to rush out and get back into the whole aspirant process.

I think I'll tell her how wonderful someone felt sending me money - she'll for sure start sending me some,ya think? Yes,I'll put my plan in motion - I have so much power over Daneane - such influence.

But you foiled me,Jerry - the master detective of the Forum.

You just bring out the best in me, Jerry. Keep up the good work. I'm feeling the hair grow on my body as I type.I'm starting to get with program here.

The new Elaine,yeah.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:00:45 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Sure did
Message:
Elaine, go fuck yourself. I didn't even read your whole post, just the first couple of sentences and that was plenty. You're a phony dumbass cult member who's nothing but a waste of time to anybody involved, on either side of the fence. Why don't you just beat it? What good do you think you're doing here, to yourself or anyone else? What good at all?
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:10:48 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Why ans you, if you don't read it?...(NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:18:33 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: What a baby,can't even read my post....NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:19:49 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: You're emotionalism is very revealing...nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 16:09:17 (GMT)
From: Moi Aussi
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: And So Is Yours......nt
Message:
p
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:24:26 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: And yes, I've had too much coffee,alright. NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 05:02:53 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: 'K Jerry,I'll leave,sorry to impose on Ur Forum(nt
Message:
No more text from me.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 13:37:20 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Just a suggestion, Daneane
Message:
If you think you've got unresolved issues concerning M, stick around. But if you can put it behind you, and move along, I think that's the wisest course of action. I hope to be able to do that myself someday. I really get sick of this place sometimes, but am always drawn back, that's how deep into my sytem this shit has got. Sure, I enjoy the the off topic debates, but the real reason I keep coming back is because of the deep impact M and K has had on my life. I carried that shit with me like it was my reason for living for most of my adult life. It was a bullshit security blanket I wrapped myself in and held onto like there was no tomorrow. The support I get from this forum in letting go of it has been invaluable.

What about you, Daneane? How profound an impact on your life has M had? How much of your life did you dedicate to his teachings, certain you would find your answers through them. How much did you distance yourself from the ones who love you to dedicate yourself to those teachings? How many of your family relationships have been irreparably damaged? Just how much did you suffer because of your involvement in the cult? This isn't a little get together to discuss the cult from a distance over a cup of tea and biscuits. This is a place where people come to put their lives together. At least, that's what it is for me. I think anything else lessens the value of this forum.

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 23:47:47 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Like, you're going to find her answers--nooo
Message:
'evasive response?'

Daneane wasn't asking me any questions.

Since when am I supposed to respond to Daneane?

She was asking questions by fax to an instructor or aspirant person - did I read that wrong?

All I was saying was I was giving her letters to the asp. person here to be ready for others like her - and to be able to answer (or be aware you can't answer)- so others like Daneane,in this city, would at least get a response.

Ooo,I'm soooo bad that I want others to get a response in my town and not be ignored like Daneane.

Ooo, what are you going to do to me ,I'm soo bad, stop reading my posts?

Please,no,don't.

Give me a break.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 00:26:38 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: Daneane@justice.com
To: Elaine
Subject: Spread it around
Message:
Elaine,

I would appreciate if you did pass those letters around. Even if no answers are given, at least the questions will at least be glanced at.

I thought for awhile of faking it to see the whole process, but decided it was easier to read J-M's site than endure anymore of those video presentations or keep denying my objections.

I had a talk once with the local aspirant instructor about the asking for knowledge session. The way he described it and how he seemed so into it actually made me feel pretty bad, because I so was not. I felt like hanging around was unfair.

Of course for you I have that same eternal question as everyone else here has seemed to already asked you...why do you still call yourself a premie??? No offense, but you must be a mighty bad one at least.

-dg

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 02:32:41 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Spread it around...ok
Message:
D-
Katie asked me that premie question within the last two wks, I think. I have said before I probably say I'm a premie because I don't say I'm an ex. However, I have said for many years -'I am not the best premie.'

Maybe you've read me post that I think M is NOT the best teacher or Guru - I do not know why he does the things he does or doesn't do certain things. I don't pray to him - picture him in meditation,worship him - if he came to a local area I would go to a program for the general high and energy of people in a group around any spiritual person lecturing - and I do go to other gatherings. I don't hate him,however. And I was in an ashram for many years. I don't give him money and never did.And can't relate personally to all the digs about him being exspensive. I don't go to video events in my local community - when they were free I didn't go.

I don't care for most premies. I have some close premie friends of 20+ years. I also have close exes as friends of 23 years.

I could go on - thank you for asking and writing back nicely - I'm getting pretty burnt out on meaness here - when I think it's usually a misunderstanding. And when it's not a misunderstanding I'm still tired of the intolerance of other peoples thoughts,beliefs. I don't get why someone can't see something differently without being harrassed. I mean alot of people here think diff than I do --so what -- it's what makes the world go round. I digressed,while I was thanking you.

Elaine

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:02:36 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: Daneane@Justice.com
To: Elaine
Subject: Spread it around...ok
Message:
so you are a sucky premie and a sucky ex...makes you a rebel then...your the box on the ballot that says, 'decline to state'. Pretty cool, I think. I prefer the title crappy aspirant to ex-aspirant, myself. I don't think any type of 'ex' is appropriate to me, at least in regards to this M stuff.

I'm not too keen on that 'knowledge' term either. It's so not appropriate for M's manipulations and false promises.

Meditation I can deal with, though I'm not into it.

I'm a little confused though..you said you don't like many premies, yet you also said you go to events if they are local because you like the energy of the group. So you only like premies in masses??

Sounds like you'd have made a good deadhead; if its the energy you are after.

I was pretty threatened and blasted by the strong stating of opinions around this place too. It still keeps me careful in my ramblings. It's frustrating at times, but I prefer to it to the happy empty smiles of those video events. Could you imagine if this board has a bunch of 'oh that post was so beautiful' all in agreement??

Looks to me like you have had no problem holding your own, ya crappy premie.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:32:10 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: the crappy premie
Message:
I like that name,thanks.

I know,I know - I don't like premies much - but then I say the energy at a program I like.
I have VERY little eye contact when I walk in or out - the occassional 'high five' eye contact is ok.

Just sitting in the room with concentrated people - even people TRYING to concentrate is nice.

Meditation is very neat, tho - ever try it? I mean any kind. Even looking at a candle flame for five whole minutes -you learn alot about yourself.Anyway - nice posting w/ you.

Elaine

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 17:30:56 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: the crappy premie
Message:
Hi Elaine,

Would you please explain what do you experience in meditation? What do YOU learned about yourself? I don't ask for personal details. I want to know what is it that you learned. Please, be concised. It's a simple question and you seemed very shure of your statement.

You said:

Meditation is very neat, tho - ever try it? I mean any kind. Even looking at a candle flame for five whole minutes -you learn alot about yourself.Anyway - nice posting w/ you.

I sometimes meditate but I don't have a need today to put thoughts about what I experience: Relaxation. What is it for you? I noticed that you are very into understanding these matters and claim to know so much; I thought in getting ideas from you that may help 'my journey'.Thanks,

SB

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:31:58 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: To SB - you asked
Message:
I almost skipped over your post,since you've been intense with me in the past.

I will assume you are sincere and not being sarcastic....

All I was saying was if one sits and tries to concentrate on something - say a candle even - you learn alot - could be a hundred diff things to people.

One might learn how fast their mind moves.
How fun their mind is to watch.
How their thoughts lead into other thoughts in an interesting way.
How one can have thoughts of fear or anger and thus feel their temperature rise or their heartbeat increase.
And then how, trying to still concentrate, their thoughts may stray to pleasant thoughts and their boloodpressure goes down.
Or how much tension is in one's body - and how it can be released.
Which may lead to what caused the tension and inspiration comes to solve the 'problem'.

Just a few of a hundred fun things about trying to focus on something. Esp, when there is no judgement in your wondering thoughts.
Very important - all while still trying to bring back your concentration gently to the object.

Then, there is when you are actually calm and your thoughts slow down to nothing, and say, the candle you're looking at changes alittle or the background comes into view or disappears.

This has nothing to do with 'Knowledge' or a 'Guru'.

Just concentrating experiences. No big revelation - just fun.

Sometimes one can learn how creative ideas come into the mind.
Or AFTER the focusing how ideas come into the mind that are simple and creative.

Just stuff like that.All this is superficial, light stuff.I don't feel safe to talk about my own experiences here.

Now, I'm waiting for the sarcastic,emotional response. You know once burned...and all.

Elaine

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 04:28:17 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: What the hell? Above post from Elaine ,sorry NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 05:49:19 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: What the hell??????????????
Message:
What hell? I asked you something and what is that???
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:25:22 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: the crappy premie
Message:
Even looking at a candle flame for five whole minutes -you learn alot about yourself.

What nonsense! And what a lie. Don't you have a cult meeting to go to, or something? Go listen to a goober video. Anything. Quit spewing your bullshit here.

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 02:36:50 (GMT)
From: Hullo???? Are you kidding
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Gee ,What a surprise!!!!!
Message:
Send a letter to the state department and ask for a detailed explanation of the Goverments fiscal policy . Talk about a set up. You make Gerry Spriger look straight up. You are a real dreamer and horribly sucked in by your new Hobgoblin difunctional friends! You are being used. Good luck! you are going to need it!
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 04:34:22 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Hullo???? Are you kidding
Subject: Yes, you're right
Message:
I would have been much better off with those premie friends of mine who dumped me as soon as I questioned their Lord.
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 02:43:00 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Hullo???? Are you kidding
Subject: Another premie illiterate
Message:
Send a letter to the state department and ask for a detailed explanation of the Goverments (sic) fiscal policy . Talk about a set up. You make Gerry(sic) Spriger (sic) look straight up. You are a real dreamer and horribly sucked in by your new Hobgoblin(sic) difunctional (sic)friends! You are being used. Good luck! you (sic) are going to need it!

So you're comparing Goober with the state department? Wanna buy a nice car? I promise it's never been wrecked or in a flood...

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 04:07:33 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: no I wanna sell my one year old corolla
Message:
get in line gerry. all mine has is this one little burn in the
drivers seat from some crazy pot smoker I let drive. NOT ME.
Rest of the car is in great shape. Mystic Teal it's called.
Isn't that nice?
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 15:24:38 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: very nice, very nice indeed, Selene
Message:
Well, my pride and joy is a stunning 1977 Pontiac Catalina, that lovely manila yellow that was so big back then. If you can look past the lack of a headliner and wheel covers, it would be a perfect vehicle for propagation. You might have to explain that the 22 caliber size holes in the dented areas are not actually gun shot damage but my attemps at 'bodywork.' Heck, for the right price, I'd even put seat covers on it.

Nah, I can't sell. Too much of my personal identity is wrapped up in it and besides, it runs too good.

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 18:35:13 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: all I ever really wanted was one of those 67
Message:
Mustangs. creamy leather interior. Very pale almost while yellow exterior. None of my mechanic friends would ever let me buy one.
I don't have any mechanic friends anymore so now I guess I could.
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 01:02:49 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Unanswered Letters to Instructor
Message:
May 2, 2000(faxed)
Dear Dayal,

I spoke to you last Sunday following the satellite broadcast of Amaroo. I'm sorry I was not able to speak to you very long, or in a better setting. I was pretty caught off guard and not really ready with questions or comments in mind. In fact, I really am not even clear on what an 'instructor' is or does. I know only M gives knowledge now, but what does that leave?

I sent an e-mail to the local aspirant contact about some weird stuff I had come across. Are such questions things I should be asking elsewhere?

I looked at the web-sites you mentioned, but they did not address areas of my questions. I checked out Visions International as well, but they had nothing regarding the history of M.

It is the case that his history is not important to receiving knowledge? I thought his was a tradition passed from his father, and possibly to be passed on to his children.

Can you suggest to whom I could address specific questions I have come across? It seems to me the videos do not really address these matters and further more seems to echo the same basic themes: participation, practice and gratitude.

It is my opinion, if I do not address the questions I have that I can not trust in myself enough to put my trust in M. How can I accept him openly if I am unsure of myself? How can I ask for knowledge if I doubt in its potential? How can I become truly sincere, until I fully explore that which I am asking for?

I'd appreciate any assistance you could provide regarding these matters. Please respond to my e-mail address, my fax does not receive calls.

Thank you. -dg

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 14:20:40 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Unanswered Letters to Instructor
Message:
Daneane,

It's a shame that you got some sarcastic answers to your post here. I don't know who you are, because I haven't been reading here for a while. I pop in and out these days. From what your letters contained, I am going to assume you are a serious aspirant who is in the process of searching for knowledge.

Did you read the pages on this site about the aspirant process and about how instructors choose people for knowledge? If not, check them out. An ex-inititator (person Maharaji appointed to give knowledge in the past)wrote the pages and the information contained within them is factual. They are very eye opening.

Knowledge is NOT what you think it is. It's not what they are telling you it is. It is nothing more than four meditation techniques that you can learn right here if you choose to do so. You can also find the same, or similar meditation techniques in books on meditation in the library or bookstore. Knowledge is the carrot that they are baiting you with in order to brainwash you into devoting to Maharaji. They believe that the secret to happiness in life is devotion to a master, not practicing knowledge, really.

I said brainwash, but they don't really brainwash you, you will do that to yourself. You will listen to their seductive lines and phrases from the videos--yes, Maharaji can be good at telling you what you want to hear about quenching your thirst or longing to know what life is about. We ALL want to know about that, so he uses it to get you interested.

And if you are like me, you will find that a lot of premies are sincerely nice people. Unfortunately they have been duped, too, and that is quite sad. You may want to be friends with these people because you have similar interests in spiritual matters and that is attractive to you.

Why doesn't anyone answer your questions? Well, that's simple. To keep you interested, they have to make you think what they have is so incredible, so wonderful and so beautiful that mere words and answers don't come close to describing it. They have to build up the illusion. Dear Daneane, it's just like the story of the emperor's new clothes. The theives convince everyone in town that THEY are deficient or stupid if THEY can't see the invisible fabric. So the myth is perpetuated. It's the same way with knowledge.

So many people who have written here have been honest about the fact that receiving knowledge was such a let down. That is because it's NOT what they say it is. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, meditation can be very relaxing. I'm only saying that it isn't what they are telling you.

Now, a lot of premies get high off of the devotional experience, whether at a festival or while meditating and thinking about their master. I won't deny that many people have spiritually high experiences, because I don't know for a fact that they aren't --BUT these are all in their head. If you want to meditate about chocolate cake, you can talk yourself into having a mindblowing devotional experience to THAT, too. It's all in the power of your mind!!

They are going to tell you that any behavior of Maharaji's is unimportant because it is is divine will and who are we to judge it? Well, I just can't buy that, Daneane. His actions are morally irreprehensible and therefore I have NO interest in devoting myself to someone like that. Furthermore, some of the actions of the people within his organization have also been horrible, yet he defends them, or refuses to hold them accountable, which is just as bad.

I, too, wanted to get knowledge for a very long time--about 25 years!! I only actively persued it once, but so many red flags went off in my head while I was doing so and I quit early on in the process. I realized that it wasn't the answer to my dreams, but that it was a cult and that I didn't need to be in a cult to be happy. If you have questions or doubts about this, trust yourself and your instincts on them.

I will be checking in and out for the next several days, and if you want to seriously talk about this, I am happy to do that with you. I will answer anything I can that you throw at me and I won't hold anything back.

Because you are asking so many questions, can I let you in on a secret? Only YOU can answer the questions for yourself. But I can offer some help. Read some websites about other cults on the internet and note their similarities to EV. Check out the site Maharaji's brother has. (I believe the link is on this site somewhere)

If you can, PLEASE read the book Three Continents--before you watch another Maharaji video. It's a fictional account of an Indian cult that was very helpful to me. It's out of print, but don't let that deter you. Several people here own copies and I'm sure they would send it to you if you ask. Also you might be able to get it used on some used book sites on the Internet. There is also a book The Guru Papers, that has some good insights into the master/devotion relationship.

Good luck to you!
Sincerely,
VP


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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 15:45:10 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: 3 Continents
Message:
It may be out of print, but it's in the libraries.
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 15:30:47 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Uh, Veep, she's off the hook, nice post, tho (nt)
Message:
NT
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 15:46:18 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Uh, Veep, she's off the hook, nice post, tho (nt)
Message:
Thanks, gerry. Like I said, I didn't know, I was going by her letters. Thanks for telling me before I made a bigger arse of meself! ;)
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 00:18:23 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: Daneane@justice.com
To: VP
Subject: no arse about it
Message:
Hey VP,

Your post is good to have in there and all your points are well stated. I appreciate your effort...if I had been an aspiring aspirant instead of a crappy ex-one as I am now, I think your post would have been well received.

I've a journey on this site as well.

I posted the letters because I thought it was intersting how many questions go unanswered by EV types especially in contrast to how much is shared by exes.

They told me all you web people were bad. They said people on the web could say whatever they wanted. I said, 'well M can say whatever he wants on satellite broadcasts'. No, I haven't been invited back.

Anyway, thanks for the response.
-dg

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 01:04:12 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Another unanswered to Instructor
Message:
May 26, 2000

Dayal,

I had a few more questions I was hoping you might be able to answer for me. First off though, I never did receive the e-mail you mentioned last time we talked. Did you try to send it again? My server address is Daneaneg@earthlink.net.

I haven't attended any events since we spoke, though I continue my research about Maharaji, and have viewed some videos at home. I've contacted Visions International and received some suggestions there. What concerns me most presently, however, is the apparent censorship of other sites offering information about Maharaji, Elan Vital and Divine Light Mission. Only the sites run by Exes have been affected. Why is this happening? Will Enjoying Life.org be going down too? I've read accounts of these proceedings on the Forum at an ex-site and people there have gotten letters from lawyers who work for Maharaji.

Why is he trying to shut down these sites? I got many answers from them and learned much more about his history than from anywhere else. Why would he want to hide his history? Is there something else about the sites that merits them being shut down?

These actions make me very uncomfortable, Dayal. It makes me think M has much to hide and that one who follows M can have no doubts or dissenting opinions whatsoever. I don't understand this. Doesn't he say to follow your heart and find your own answers inside? Surely as such, these answers would not all be the same.

I'm growing quite disappointed in that you and Gwyn told me I would receive answers to my questions, but I've yet to hear anything. You told me you had sent an e-mail, yet I never received it. Maharaji never even speaks to people without knowledge at events anymore, so I can't even hear his words in person. All of these things make me wonder. Why are so many question left unanswered? Why is he out to silence those who ask them and post their point of view on-line?

If he is simply trying to teach people to look inside, why would he seem to have so much to hide? I really wish my questions would be addressed. How can I put my trust in Maharaji if he acts so distrustful?

Sincerely,

Daneane Gallardo

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 01:05:11 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Unanswered letters from Exes
Message:
Hmmm...don't seem to have any of those.
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 09:02:30 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Unanswered letters from Exes
Message:
Its easy to get unanswered mail from an ex -just send us a request for $ or for sprucing up the jet, the lack of funds will break you, although we might send a no thank yuu letter back!
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 05:36:18 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: :) (nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 21:43:01 (GMT)
From: hamzen shearerpants
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Salutations to the Head of the Master (dot)
Message:
One Love

One nation under the groove

Will anyone get any sleep tonight with the car horns

So this is what is meant by bliss

And, apologies to any germans,
but 34 years is a long wait

Or as one of those wonderful german premies said, very loudly as he patrolled the line, while we were waiting in the food queue on the holy tour to Copenhagen,

'you vill remember the holy name'

well I just have

SHEARER
SHEARER
SHEARER

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Date: Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 21:57:08 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: hamzen shearerpants
Subject: Wot a stroke of luck ! ( very OT )
Message:
How can such a crappy football team ever win an International game? From a more neutral perspective Ham you have to admit that the England team are sadly lacking in skill, pace and talented players?

Did you see Portugal play? Now there's talent!

Hal the header

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Date: Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 22:23:23 (GMT)
From: Bobby Moore's Ghost
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Oh Yeah....
Message:
Go tell that to the Krauts.

An' vots your national football team, huh?

An' vots a fuckin' 'neutral perspective?'

Yeah, I suppose Portugal were neutral in the war.

The Ghost of Bobby Moore

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Date: Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 22:21:40 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Beckham, Scholes, Campbell tonight, Keown,
Message:
and don't forget, you individualist you, that it's a team game, not for arty posers who don't like it up 'em!
Re Portugal, you mean like they played against Romania, give us a break Hal, now that was TRULY lucky

I'll concede that Figo, etc were very creative, but if Keegan hadn't been so naive, ie sent on Gerrard & Barmby when we went 2 up, well no way back for them, after that match I really sympathised with NewcAstle fans!

The problem with our team has always been that of heroic losers!

We will see, I don't think Poretugal have got the bottle meself.

What was the vibe like after the 3-2 one?

And talking of bliss, only on the full moon? not every weekend?
and are we talking dreadlocks etc etc

By the way I shall be writing to Mister Blair re rescinding your passport, you've obviously gone native........ :)

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 14:58:10 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Beckham, Scholes, Campbell tonight, Keown,
Message:
Hi Ham,

Ok man , don't want to spoil your celebration, enjoy the good times while they roll. I think Eng may be surprised by Romanias ability to dampen the other teams attack as they did against Portugal.

I do think Eng. made some great passes from the back, to the Germans.

How does this Gerrard character manage to come on and then completely disappear? No sight nor sign of him whatsoever!

I've been seeing a lot more of other European teams in action over the last 10 years and I've learnt to appreciate a more subtle and sexy game than you hoofers provide.

Please get Blair in on this, I don't like the Youk much. Anyway it's all Europe now man, I can sneak in easy!!

Yeah it's a bit crusty and only infrequently due to noise problems with the villagers. The sound keeps a lot of folks awake being outdoors.

Take care , I'll think of you on Tuesday if england get hammered (no pun intended)

Hal the traitor.

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 15:23:38 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Hee, hee, I'll pray for you hal,
Message:
and may you never run into the ghost of norman hunter, as though bobby moore would ever be so aggressive!

I have to pray for ya, otherwise my jealousy might start leaking out all over the place.
Without getting too excited, think of the pressure they were under, I think, well hope, that we'll see the full mccoy tuesday,
gerrard is actually a really good player, seriously good, he's only 19, and thought he did very well saturday. You seriously don't rate becks or scholey? I know the portuguese were terrified of the damage he could cause, and he very nearly did. NB he also dragged the gerrys defence all over the place for shearers goal.

We may be hoofers, but we understand team spirit, all for one etc

Assuming a large crusty community there, mobile not settled, I assume? No grief from the bizzies yet over dB levels?

If we lose, the disco biscuits are on me if I make it over this summer!

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:05:58 (GMT)
From: hal
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Hee, hee, I'll pray for you hamzen( way ot ) sorry
Message:
Yeah ok I admit that Becks and Scholes are excellent and don't get me wrong, I'd love to see them play brilliantly and win 'em all.

All the best Ham from Halboy.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 00:37:11 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: hal
Subject: I bow to your superior wisdom Hal
Message:
I'm gonna use that match as an example of 'prermie'ish behaviour.
Right throutout the game was getting flashes about different attitudes, and how they affect outcomes.

We now have the ability to score goals regularly against foreign competition, but we have no defenders reaslly comfortable on the ball, or with enough intelligence.

Ahh werll, until the next comp when we'll see if like Man U they learn.

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Date: Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 22:42:52 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: and it rained here for the first time in ages..
Message:
so you do of course see how this all means something.
We being techno connected and all
later on the secured line Ham
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Date: Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 22:56:47 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: Ha,so you like s and m after all,when's the first
Message:
train to tucson!

(secured line)

don't forget
big chill
1st week in august

oh and shit, just remembered I didn't send site details re arizona hooplas,
will get to it pronto

& why the fuck can't we put '&' in the subject lines, that's what I wanna know

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Date: Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 23:12:13 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: because we can't Ham
Message:
It's our thing.
Looking forward to the rest!
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Date: Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 19:32:42 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Keith and Everyone
Subject: To Keith, about hatred.
Message:
Are you suggesting that hatred is a feeling we should deny/suppress in ourselves?

The expression of hatred, and of anger, and disgust, is (for many) a VITAL part of reclaiming our own autonomy, our own feelings, our own independence from the authority figure we so foolishly gave our all to. It is a stage that many need to go through in order to find their own freedom again.

I understand your reticence toward getting in touch with that part of yourself that can feel passionately enough to express such strong feelings. Perhaps you're wary of what you might say/do if you really let go of your feelings. Perhaps you feel you would be fuelling your fall, if you gave free rein to such expression.

Admit it, Keith, you do have a tendency (as do I) toward intellectualising, rather than emoting.

But the point is that, even though you might disapprove, people who post here are going through a process - a catharsis even - of gradually detaching themselves from someone whose influence has infiltrated very deeply into their psyches - their minds AND their hearts. Some were total in giving everything. For them, the feelings run very deep.

Keith, allow this to be a place where everything that needs to be expressed IS expressed.

Censor your own emotions if you must. But please, resist the temptation to try and censor anyone else's.

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 21:39:01 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: To cq, about hatred.
Message:
If you feel so good about it then may you get to eat every last fruit from the tree you sow.There,your fate is in your own hands.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 17:25:08 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Now that's an interesting little seed you've sown
Message:
Which brings us to the question of: why is it that premies appear to be at least a couple of decades behind the rest of the world when it comes to owning and integrating the full gamut of their OWN feelings?

There always was something too good to be true about the smiles, the love-bombing and the blissy-wissy pretence that has so often personified premie-hood. For God's sake - just take a look at the Mills & Boon-type mush that's posted all over ELK!

Oh, I get it - maybe you too are another third-rate wanna-be Kabir.

In which case, what ARE you doing here?

(PS, in who's hands do you think YOUR fate is?)

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Date: Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 23:02:41 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Emoting
Message:
Dear Cq, Thanks for the post, you put it really clearly. I find that I do a bit of both, emoting, and then drawing back and thinking things through, and then I'm ready to face up to the next bit.LE
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Date: Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 21:52:12 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: To Keith, about hatred.
Message:
Cq, if you had read my posts regarding hatred with more care you would have easily realised that one of my main points was that 'to hold onto hatred ' was what I referred to, not hatred per say. Perhaps you read just one sentence and have taken me out of context. In that case be corrected.
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 18:10:28 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: To Keith, about hatred.
Message:
Keith, holding onto hatred so that it becomes a way of life is not what I was proposing. Facing, expressing and dealing with it is.

Perhaps one of the reasons why the hatred I occasionally feel for Mr Rawat keeps surfacing (from time to time) is simply this: the guy won't face the accusations against him. He plays it like the Cheshire Cat and just disappears.

Blatant avoidance of dealing with the after-effects of involvement with his cult is not only bad public relations, it's pretty damn cowardly as well. Perhaps he knows he doesn't have a leg to stand on.

How to bring a situation like this to closure?

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 00:17:33 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: reconciliation.
Message:
How to bring a situation like this to closure?
good question cq.
Reasonable and respectful dialogue would be a good place to start.
A forum that really encouraged open debate without bias would be great.
A forum for moderates from both camps.
A forum that this forum COULD be if there was more passion in that direction.
A forum that was able to grow through self criticism.
And if people from all 'camps' (and anarchists too) would want to work together towards reconciliation that would move things along.
It's happening between the Israeli's and the Arabs. It's happening in Ireland. It's even beginning to happen between the Korea's. It's happening in lots of places. Re-conciliation!
It may be a slow and often torturous journey but it can happen.
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 20:36:15 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: To cq
Message:
That's why I suggested exploring forgiveness. It is an incredibly fascinating subject.

To forgive someone,though they do not seem to acknowledge their wrong against you.
To forgive someone when they continue to hurt you or others.
To forgive someone totally and completely when they seem to even relish the pain they cause others ....
it's almost endless and a fascinating study.

It's very freeing and high - I'm not telling you what to do,
but you did bring up 'How to bring a situation like this to closure?'.

It's work and alot of soul searching. But,man, are the rewards sweet. :)

I know I butted in w/ your post to Keith...

Elaine

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 20:39:24 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Wish it was you I'd had on the bench.
Message:
Wish it was you I'd had on the bench

... old lag that I am.

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 22:18:33 (GMT)
From: uh I can't say...
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: All day sucker
Message:
You know, one of those REALLY big lollipops? that's what you and your New Age aphorisms remind me of, Elaine.

To forgive someone,though they do not seem to acknowledge their wrong against you.
To forgive someone when they continue to hurt you or others.
To forgive someone totally and completely when they seem to even relish the pain they cause others ....
it's almost endless and a fascinating study.

Fascinating, maybe, but truly worthless. Listen dear, this is how it works:

Someone hurts you.
They ask for forgiveness and promise not to do it again.
You forgive them but don't necessarily 'forget.'

Simple, huh? Of course, not as heavy as goober's 'wisdom' but way more practical and useful.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 02:46:40 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: uh I can't say...
Subject: Forgiveness - a question...
Message:
I do that,too.

The don't forget part and all.

But what does one do when the offender doesn't ask for forgiveness - say they are dead or in communicato.

Say the anger and hate and anything else they 'created' in you is festering so that it spills over into your family life,relationships,workplace or into roadrage - in other words every aspect of your life - I mean - relishing killing an ant while you walk,ok?
You recognize you have a problem - your friends tell you, your therapist points it out - you can't hide it - the memory and thus, the mentioning of the offense creeps into your conversations - even w/ co-workers...

What would you do? Do you just live with it? Do you go to therapy and picture shooting the offender? Do you curse them? Seek revenge?

In other words - do you take the high road or the low road - and which is the successful one? Which one aids you the most - because isn't ultimately your emotional and mental and spiritual health the most important thing afterall?

I'd love a thoughtful response instead of the possible wisecracking one.

TY,
Elaine

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:02:01 (GMT)
From: Han
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Forgiveness - No question...
Message:
Elaine,
You seem to be the stabilizing force on a site where sadly enough the most constructive posts are most often the ones ignored. Never the less, that does not diminish your wisdom and insight always poignant, calming, and based in the Spirit.
Peace,
Han
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:20:15 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Han
Subject: Forgiveness - No question...
Message:
Han,

Thanks.... but I had to laugh at what others will think of your post.

I'm sure not many here think of Elaine as 'the stabilizing force'. (Esp, since I just told Jerry he was full of shit.Ha.)

But it was a sweet comment and will bring laughter too many - so therefore I say it was a success. :)

Big smile and click of glasses to you.

Elaine

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:35:03 (GMT)
From: Han
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Forgiveness - No question...
Message:
Elaine,
Call it a first impression,,but true. ;~)

I purposefully stayed away from the hate thread,,,, My last post on that topic resurrected Darth Vader who proceeded to extract my pineal gland,, just to prove that it doesn't glow with
the light of a thousand suns,,,, As I'm not really that close
with Darth,,I resisted in spilling out my deepest, most heartfelt
feelings,,something he found,,pusillanamous? which is something like a pussy,,,,i believe. It was a light hearted romp back into the 70's for me,,although I'm sure Rob is still pounding his chest somewhere...still trying to figure out if he was the only one 'fidgiting' under the blanket, as he calls it,for all those years.
Your forgiveness response was most profound in that,,, the
antithisis of 'hate' is 'love'. A basic question in
human existence that arises over and over again is, which one do you want to embrace in your life. Which one bears the sweetest fruit in life,,,,,I'm talking about individuals in 'control' of their own emotions on a daily basis, and understanding the consequences of their choices. We all have a choice. I know we all wear different colored glasses,,,and that's fine..but the
'Choice' is still ours, and that could be our most precious blessing.
Peace,
Han

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:35:36 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Han
Subject: Forgiveness - No question...
Message:
Yes, the sweet fruit and the choice.:)
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 03:45:10 (GMT)
From: still can't say
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: OK, no wisecracks
Message:
I do that,too.
The don't forget part and all.
But what does one do when the offender doesn't ask for forgiveness - say they are dead or in communicato.

Yes this is a problem with which I'm currently dealing.

Say the anger and hate and anything else they 'created' in you is festering so that it spills over into your family life,relationships,workplace or into roadrage - in other words every aspect of your life - I mean - relishing killing an ant while you walk,ok?

Well that really is all-consuming isn't it. I'm not quite there.

You recognize you have a problem - your friends tell you, your therapist points it out - you can't hide it - the memory and thus, the mentioning of the offense creeps into your conversations - even w/ co-workers...

What would you do? Do you just live with it? Do you go to therapy and picture shooting the offender? Do you curse them? Seek revenge?

Are these the only choices available? Seems like a very limited repetoire of behaviour you've laid out here. I think it's possible to get on with one's life without forgiving the unrepentent offender. If something is all consuming, yes, therapy may be necessary.

In other words - do you take the high road or the low road - and which is the successful one? Which one aids you the most - because isn't ultimately your emotional and mental and spiritual health the most important thing afterall?

Again, this is so black and white, the high road, low road dichotomy. It reminds me of the heart/mind split. Is that a useful concept? I don't think so.

I'd love a thoughtful response instead of the possible wisecracking one.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:22:06 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: still can't say
Subject: OK, no wisecracks,thank you.
Message:
Well, ok even if it's not all consuming - let's say it's still in there somewhere. You say you think it's possible to get on w/ one's life.
Well, sure - we all end up doing that.

But, as we get older and wiser and our tastes in the pleasures in life become finer tuned - let's say we don't like our hidden, creepy,little angers toward people in our past. And we can see that sometimes we react to people irrationally because of our creepy,unresolved feelings for past hurts.

Ex - A parent always ridiculed us for a particular thing. Now our spouse criticises that very thing and we BLOW UP at them - irrationally, as in go off the deep end. Yes, wouldn't it be peachy if we could get on w/ our lives and not forgive people. I don't think it is possible with quality - maybe my standards are higher than yours.

But, I have had big blow ups over very little things. All bec they pricked at an old unresolved,resentment-filled injustice done to me.And friends have told me of huge blow ups over nothing. All going back to the pain they 'thought' they were over and was all in their past. I say - until it is truly resolved it will rear it's ugly head - again and again - and ruin a perfectly good day with someone.

So what does one do. I say - get to a point of forgiveness. And that is NOT easy - and takes alot of work and research into the very nature of forgiveness.

I wish cq was reading this.

Would like more input.
Elaine

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 00:09:55 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: uh I can't say...
Subject: All day sucker
Message:
What's there to apologize for cq?You came to him looking for something and he gave it to you.He continued to give you guidance which you accepted,after all at one time it was once a lifetime commitment for you.Then at some point along the way all these doubts flew into your head and you lost faith in him which made you beleive he was doing it all for selfish reasons.
Now what is it you want him to apologize for,you losing faith in him?Or should he apologize for the dubious motives you and the exers conjure up for him,which by the way is the sourceof your hatred?He sincerely believes in K and hsi role as Master.He sincerely believe in what he's doing and how he's doing it.After hearing from people who have been close to him that is 100% clear.He has acknowledged that mistakes have been made in the past but he's not on the hook for what goes on in your head or the fallout from your loss of faith.
Maybe couriosity asks for explanations which he may or may not be inclined to give,but he by no means owes anybody apologies for trying to help people understand something about themself that is difficult to undersdtand.especially when there's still thousands who still benefit and enjoy K and his guidance.
As far as I can see the exer's imagination of his demonic motives are as baseless as most premies imagination of his divine motives.It's all imagination!It's time for everyone to get real.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 18:49:50 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: O
Subject: 'time for everyone to get real' - U2,O?
Message:
'Get real' you say?

As in 'face the facts'?

OK, here's a fact for us to face, an indisputable one:

Maharaji led a lot of people to believe he was God incarnate (i.e. the Saviour, the Messiah, Lord of the Universe etc.)

But the fact of the matter is that he wasn't and isn't, any more than you or I.

So he lied. Big time (can you think of a bigger lie he could have told?)



Then (indisputable fact #2):

he attempted to destroy all the evidence of his claims during his LOTU years (the recall and destruction of the literature). Pretended it never happened !!!


And these are the actions of an honest man, do you think? A man who would like you to trust him more than you trust yourself? Oh he'd like that.

In fact there are still premies who trust him more than they trust themselves; some even continue to think he's Lord of the Universe. Does that encourage him to help them out of their delusion? Does that stop him from taking their money from them? Does it f**k.

And you still believe this man to be a Master? Master Con-Artist more like.

Oh, he believes in what he's doing all right - and he's doing very nicely out of it, private jet, Malibu mansion etc. etc.

Demonic motives you say? I don't think so. Just love of money, and of living in the manner to which he has become accustomed.

Why on earth should someone like him want to apologise to anyone?

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 19:43:04 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Do you believe in magic?
Message:
First to this day he still refers to himself having the same goals as the Saviors/Messiahs.The last thing he wants to do is say he's Jesus or Buddah because everybody flies off on tangents.
Next you'll be hard pressed to show me where he said 'I Prem Pal Singh Rawat am God'.To this day he talks about the power of the Master but most of us including you don't have a clue what he's talking about.And even if he came out and said he was God,how would you disprove his claim?
No cq,no lies were told by him.
On the point of destroying evidence thats just your projection of some kind of cover up on his part.Now let me project.He wanted people to be free of the burdensome ideas about him and K accumulated during the 70s that only confused and hurt people..You obviously didn't take advantage of his efforts.
As for him only caring about money,thats just bullshit.
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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 04:50:46 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Do you believe in magic?
Message:
Can't see somebody caring about money and doing what he's doing - no ones receiving K - not many anyway - he propogates to countries with no money. People leave him every week.

If I cared about money I'd sure be doing something differently.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 06:19:49 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Do you believe in magic?
Message:
Elaine,

What are you implying with this:

If I cared about money I'd sure be doing something differently.

Are you saying that if Maharaji was in it for the money, he would be doing something different?

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Date: Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 23:06:44 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Don't know about hatred, but anger,
Message:
especiaslly righteous anger I intend to keep with me forever now,
when it's needed

no need to hang onto anything

but then if you were a bit more zen, and a bit less new age wank,
you'd know this already

this is curious, but I really suggest you do a bit more meditation, and a bit less thinking,

you need to get out of your mind more keith!

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 00:05:44 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: help me please doctor Ham!
Message:
Thanks doctor Ham. I love these free councelling sessions. You see when my mummy didn't listen to me enough I escaped into my mind. And now I've found a good, experienced therapist like yourself I feel ever so grateful.
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Date: Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 18:37:56 (GMT)
From: gwh
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Knowledge Realized
Message:
I post this to encourage ex-primies to continue with self inquiry in general and 'Knowledge' in particular. The knowledge is a mirror that reveals the content and nature of ourselves. Contrary to M's statements, the 'Knowledge' has nothing to do with him ( no ownership or exclusivity... knowledge techniques are ancient and widely known ) and everything to do with us. It is our true face that knowledge reveals.

My initiation in 'Knowledge' took place in 1974 and was transmitted by Mahatma Jagdao (not sure of spelling). 'Knowledge' was realized in 1997 after a few years of work in Dozgchen with Namkhai Norbu.
I am fervently anti-guru and feel that the work is 'a journey of the alone to the alone'. Don't let your passion for awakening die.

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 19:23:14 (GMT)
From: Han
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: Knowledge Realized???? That's so Rich.
Message:
Gwh,
Auntie Em, Auntie Em,,,,
We're not in Kansas anymore,,,,, Run Toto, Run.
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 22:40:15 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Han
Subject: Not so rich as the great maha though (nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 19:53:59 (GMT)
From: gwh
Email: None
To: Han
Subject: Knowledge Realized???? That's so Rich.
Message:
Kansas is a state of mind! The state of the known..... very comfy place. You tryed to ride the whirlwind once and got burned. Don't let fear of tornadoes condemn you to the root cellar.
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 20:37:50 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: Knowledge Realized???? That's so Rich.
Message:
gwh,

You should know that 'Han' is still riding the whirlwind. He's a devotee of the 'greatest king' Prem Rawrat.

I think there's something to this 'awakening' business, ala Poonjaji and his spawn, so I'm not hostile to the idea. I just don't believe there is anything 'to do' to get 'there' as there is no 'there' there. Ask Ham to explain if necessary.

The 'hide and go seek' game bores me at this stage of my life. I'm lost and I like it that way, personally.

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 16:02:40 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: Knowledge Realized
Message:
Interesting...but explain this to me: how can you be a Tibetan Buddhist (or at least study Dzogchen with a Tibetan guru/teacher) and also be fervently anti-guru?

(BTW, I am a Buddhist w/ a teacher.)

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 20:36:02 (GMT)
From: gwh
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Knowledge Realized
Message:
Dozgchen ( the great perfection ) is the simple unadorned pointing that resides at the apex of religion.
All Buddhist, Sufi, Christian ( lost ), Taoist, etc. doctrines end here. No one owns or claims this crystalline teaching. The only teacher is the one that resides within. All others are adornments of skillful means
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:44:52 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: Knowledge Realized
Message:
So N.Norbu wasn't a teacher; he was an 'adornment of skillfull means?' I understand your larger point about the point of Dzogchen, but didn't you study with a teacher as a way of coming to an understanding of what is? Yes you did, of course. You're just finessing semantics.
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 15:34:35 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: What's Dozgchen with Norbu???
Message:
And explain more about realized in 1997,please.

I hear what you're saying. Come back,gwh.

Regards,
Elaine

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 17:44:50 (GMT)
From: Han
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: As in the old Zen Saying,,,?
Message:
Elaine,
Did I miss something between 'Realized K' in '97',
and the old Zen quote???
I'm not really trying to point out any contradiction here,
as I stated in the post below,,I found gwh to be refreshing and
enlightening,,,moments of realization occur on many levels,,,,
His reference to the 'coyote moment',,, could that have been his explanation???
peace,
Han
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 21:55:05 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Han
Subject: To Han:Your first impression...
Message:
...of gwh was the correct one.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 20:50:47 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Han
Subject: I don't know
Message:
Han,
I thought that was a very big statement he made - something about realizing K in '97.
But, he decided not to answer my question. Of all the questions -that was the one I wanted more elaboration on.

Yes, maybe the coyote moment was some sort of ans. I want more tho.

:(

Elaine

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 16:00:46 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Elaine, here's a link
Message:
Norbu's another guru with a following and a website.

Here's the link: http://www.tashi.org/

cheers

Rob

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 16:13:03 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Thanks,Rob,but
Message:
I really appreciate it and will ck it out - but I want gwh to tell me in his own words - know what I mean?

Thanks again,tho
Elaine

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 20:52:43 (GMT)
From: gwh
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Thanks,Rob,but
Message:
Dozgchen ( the great perfection ) is just a name ( and it has many) that has its origin the Tibetan language. The teaching is much older than Buddhism and originates from a line of teachers that have always been contrary to Lamaism, monastic living and religious authority. They live their awakened lives modestly and unadorned. Dzogchen is the cutting edge of realization teaching and is currently transition from its Central Asian cultural influence into a western teaching wholly approachable to the modern world.

There a several teachers on the net.... I don't represent any..... do a search

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 02:30:51 (GMT)
From: (Sir) David
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: Knowledge Realized
Message:
What did Jagdeo transmit? He is a known child abuser, I should explain. You may read about some of his crimes on my web site. However, at the moment, Maharaji has got his lawyers to take my new version of the site down but I have already got other mirror sites up.

Click here to read about Jagdeo's crimes

Now, personally, I am willing to forgive someone who has committed a crime against children but only if they fully understand what harm they have done and make effort to control and seek help for their mental illness and make reparations to the victim(s). However, Jagdeo does not fall into this catagory because he has shown to be a very organised and ruthless child abuser and has shown no remorse for his actions.

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 02:30:27 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: Knowledge Realized--so what does it mean?
Message:
There was a time in my life when I would have fervently looked up your guru--really! And would have wondered 'does he have it, does he have the key?' like some obsessed maniac. I am so glad I am over that now.

Awakening to being a human being--ah, that is the pause that refreshes. Being HUMAN is such a relief, relief from all that guru chasing b.s.

REcovering guru maniac--that's me. And damn happy too!

Hope you are happy with your realization. But I surely hope you are allowed to enjoy sex with someone you love, and not in some stupid tantric way, enjoy nature, enjoy food , cry when you're sad, get mad when you're mad, and be afraiad when you're afraid. Hope you can get real real attached to people, attached so that it HURTS when they die,or are sick or suffering. ANything else is a bunch of crap IMO.

So what did your guru teach you--what did you learn sitting still and meditating that you couldn't learn with your eyes wide open? COme on, let's talk, gwh. What's this journey all about and how do you know you're realized? And why won't you stick around and discuss this with us?

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 20:20:43 (GMT)
From: gwh
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Knowledge Realized--so what does it mean?
Message:
There is a great deal of pain in you words. They are the words of many seekers from the past decades.
I am one of those seekers. The goods news is that awakening is real and immediately accessible. The bad news is that the transition process requires that you open your core wound and move into the festering pain and suffering.

I have no guru... I referenced norbu as a source of dozgchen text... there are other non-gurus out there as well. The text basically state that we are on our own. The teacher only introduces us to our true nature ( light ). Primies have already been introduced. The road map in the ancient dozgchen text, which are pre-Buddhist and of central Asian origin are the clearest that I have ever read. There is no structure, technique, practice that will awaken you. The process to awakening is living, vital and at times very emotional and painful. You must summon your own rot and not turn away.

Sorry about being slow to respond.

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 22:33:13 (GMT)
From: Han
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: Knowledge Realized--so what does it mean?
Message:
gwh
You state that there is no structure, technique, or
practice that will awaken you, and that the process to awakening is 'living, vital, and sometimes painful'.
My experience is somewhat the reverse, in that the process
of going within, consistently,,,, elevates my conciousness upon where 'The Living Process' becomes a thing of beauty. Facing
the demons becomes no less hazardous, hence one remains a student for life,,or of life, if you prefer. Yet the process of
going within to become familiar with the Self in it's pure form,
is ultimately cleansing and quite a bit less painful. A process which slowly reveals a clarity by which all things tangible fall into perspective.

Your reference to 'Realizing Knowledge' can be misconstrued,, as I did at first reading your post,,It would be
highly presumptious for one to believe that they could actually
'realize' the intangible.
I find your post to be highly inspirational regardless.
Peace,
Han,

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 21:37:12 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: Knowledge Realized--so what does it mean?
Message:
All of us have to do this, 'summon our own rot' people throughout the ages have done this without the help of new age gurus. You say the process of awakening is living--well, YEAH!! People do this all the time, little old un-hip ladies and men do this everyday. What makes you think you have realized something?

My point is : you separate yourself from humanity if you think you have something special.

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 20:47:04 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: Hey, I capiche !!!
Message:
I don't know nothin' about norbus or donutchins, but I know what y'all mean.

Hey! Maybe I are one too !!!

Seriously, though, I'm joking, but I mean it, sorta.

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 21:09:57 (GMT)
From: gwh
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Hey, I capiche !!!
Message:
The actual awakening event can be likened to what I call the coyote moment.

That instant when Willie discovers that he is treading air... a serious grounding in reality is imminent.

The instant has also been related in Zen terms a the collapse of an crystalline ice palace.

I have termed it as the tornado of mind hitting the ground of all being. An irresistible force meeting an immovable object.

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 22:00:56 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: Look Homeward Angel or is that You can't go home a
Message:
Well, my crystalline ice palace sorta melted when I went through this 'inquiry' process with Arjuna and got to the point where I discovered there was 'nobody home.' Now whether or not that's a good thing or not, I don't know, but there's no going back.
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 21:54:01 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: Hey, I capiche !!!
Message:
Yeah, well I call it just waking up and smelling the coffee. Zen is alright by me, except for the mystique which surrounds it. I'm sure you'll agree, that for 'enlightenment' to take place, that mystique has to be done away with. That being the case, why is it even there in the first place?

People approach a simple thing like consciousness as if it's some kind of holy vestibule. It's not. It's just part of the human experience, most probably the result of aeons of evolution, nothing more, something to marvel at and be enjoyed, to be sure, but nothing to be placed on hallowed ground. It's just our silly human nature which compels us to do that.

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 14:33:00 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Great post, Helen-nt
Message:
right on!
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Date: Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 21:53:45 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: As in the old zen saying, anyone who thinks
Message:
they've realized truth definitely hasn't

And anyway who gives a fuck
people will do what they want to do
life will be gone
and so will the planet

but even as the last country sinks under the sea
and the sharks take over

they'll still be someone like you crying out
'remember ze name, remember ze name'

get a life matee

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 21:37:11 (GMT)
From: gwh
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: As in the old zen saying, anyone who thinks
Message:
As in the old zen saying, anyone who thinks
they've realized truth definitely hasn't.

I think that you should re-read that old saying. I am not so sure it was a Zen statement. However it goes something like this;

Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know.

Keep your mouth closed.
Guard your senses.
Temper your sharpness.
Simplify your problems.
Mask your brightness.
Be at one with the dust of the earth.
This is primal union.

He who has achieved this state
Is unconcerned with friends and enemies,
With good and harm, with honor and disgrace.
This therefore is the highest state of man

They did not explain in words and concepts, or make moral precepts of that which can only be sensed and intuited. The wise do not pander to the 'clever,' who make mental representations out of sacred ideas and therefore imagine something is understood when it is only named.

YOU ARE That truth!

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 22:22:20 (GMT)
From: hamzen ciderface
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: Ever read any of Bashos poetry?
Message:
Could find you loads of zen stuff that implies exactly what I said

And again for someone who has 'realized' knowledge, and obviously doesn't care whose face he/she rubs it in, you've yet again managed to use a lot of words talking 'about'

So what did you think of Beckhams cross on saturday?

I'll go down the pub with you & zen it, but only so long as not a single word 'about' spirituality is mentioned, not interested in 'about', done enough 'onanism' in my time thanks

and a little hint, telling people what they should be doing re beliefs, in a crowd of 'antis' is just a tad spiritually arrogant don't you think, and more than a touch insensitive, in fact a bit 'premieish'.

methinks you need to get out into the 'real' world a bit and drop the 'stance'.

and from your post, to put it bluntly, think you need to go back to introductory koans, you DEFINITELY HAVEN'T GOT ZEN AT ALL

I'd suggest a period of complete silence, or no spiritual meetings at all

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Date: Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 21:35:26 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: Knowledge Realized
Message:
Nice spread this guy's got. Sorry, gwh, but anybody decked out like (click here), I don't trust. It has 'WORSHIP ME' written all over it.
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 21:45:04 (GMT)
From: gwh
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Knowledge Realized
Message:
He is not the point. Your relationship with him or any teacher is up to you and is wholly outside the realm of awakening.

With your true nature already revealed you have also been introduced to the only teacher there is. You are all there is. Wake yourself.

Use Dozgen text without norbu if you get confused

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 22:41:18 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: Knowledge Realized
Message:
Actually, I prefer the western view of consciousness. For a long time I was sidetracked from the wisdom of my own heritage, and led to believe that only the east had a bead on the truth and the west had some catching up to do, because we were just sooooo materialistic, while the east is just sooooo spiritual. Have you read anything on consciousness as studied by the western mind? Now that you've been 'enlightened', eastern style, you might be interested in what the mechanics of consciousness are. I would start with 'Consciousness At The Crossroads, Conversations With The Dalai Lama On Brain Science And Buddhism'. It's a really good read, and a nice introduction to western thought on consciousness.
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Date: Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 22:11:15 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Worship me?
Message:
And to me it looks like 'afternoon tea-time'.And also that he may not be feeling up to par.

Different parts of the elephant...

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 21:51:33 (GMT)
From: gwh
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Worship me?
Message:
He is not the point. Your relationship with him or any teacher is up to you and is wholly outside the realm of awakening.

With your true nature already revealed you have also been introduced to the only teacher there is. You are all there is. Wake yourself.

Use Dozgen text without norbu if you get confused.

Worship is absurd! A joke we play on ourselves!

The text is indispensable information that we should have received and would have if our Guru 'M' had been competant.

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 07:32:58 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Feeling bitchy and insensitive yesterday?
Message:
You really disappoint me. Do you have a clue how hurt I am by some of your afternoon posts? I've tried to ignore this sick sadistic self-indulgent-psycho-teenager-out-of-control shit, but you seem to support it?!!!!! You're not enlightened in the least.

If I had your e-mail address I would have spared the forum this post, but I'm glad that I have NO further contact with you at all.

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 14:58:09 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Feeling bitchy and insensitive yesterday?
Message:
S,
Do I have a clue how hurt you are? No.
I don't even know what you're talking about. Really. I'm hoping there is a misunderstanding. Let me know what I said. I promise I'll either explain or stand by it - but,I'm sorry,I don't remember saying anything yesterday that would upset you, let alone 'hurt' you.
Haven't read alot of posts fr people on many threads - no time for them all - so I figure I must have said something directly opposite of something you believe or something??

Want to try to work it out - if possible?
I can't have anything to do with that picture and having tea can it?Gotta be more serious than that.
I'm really clueless.

'teenager'---could this have something to do with the raina/SB thing? Don't remember what I said. But just to say now I don't support fighting - I wish both would just drop it and cool down and decide not to post with each other.

Let's clear this up - want to?

Elaine

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 02:25:03 (GMT)
From: To Elaine:
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Get eyeglasses nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 23:54:45 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Aternoon tea-time?
Message:
You've got to be kidding me. Look again. How many people do you know dress up like this for tea? The guy's decked out like the King of Siam or something. Is this how you dress up for tea, Elaine? As for being a little under par, I'll accept that. Maybe book sales weren't so good for him that month. He writes a lot of them.
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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 15:01:52 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Aternoon tea-time?
Message:
I did, thank you for the easy link. Who is this guy anyway?
He still looks like he's sick in his pajamas and someone brought him breakfast. What the heck is the big deal with him,anyway?

Never saw him before or his name.

Elaine

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 21:49:20 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Aternoon tea-time?
Message:
You are totally full of shit!! Get together with Keith and raina and go have a nice experience somewhere else!! Your interpretation about the guy in bed is simply insulting to me!!
You don't understand...how easy is to play dum? Can you tell me what you feel about yourself when u do?

SB, still disliking premie minds...

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 23:59:36 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Aternoon tea-time?
Message:
Now why is it that you want to now pick a fight with me again?

Why are you insulted by me seeing a little foreign man in his pjs? Do you actually take the way I see a picture of a complete stranger and get personally insulted??

I have since read up (a little) on this Norbu guy, ok? so what
so now I know he's some Buddhist that writes books and I think he's retired.

He still looks unwell and in PJs to me.

That truly is insulting to you?? I'm missing something here.

There's got to be more to it. Do you live on adrenalin and anger or something? You like that? This is 'fun' for you??

I am indeed bewildered,
Elaine

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Date: Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 19:15:06 (GMT)
From: Curious
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: What is awakening? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 18:53:33 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: That's not the only thing Jagdeo 'transmitted'
Message:
Perhaps someone else can point you to a link where you can find out more about your former initiator.

Have you heard from him recently? Do you happen to know where he is now?

Would you be kind enough to expand a bit on your 'realization' of knowledge? What do you actually mean by that? Are you now a meditation teacher and do you reveal the Four Techniques of Knowledge©?

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Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 22:44:16 (GMT)
From: gwh
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: That's not the only thing Jagdeo 'transmitted'
Message:
I had no relationship with Jagdeo beyond initiation day. The reference to him was simply to establish the fact that I traveled the same road and for a long time.

I never gave up my life long (before 'M' ) search to understand 'what is'. I bought my first prayer wheel when I was thirteen. 'M' was just a bump in the road that wayfarers travel. It saddens me to hear that seekers who cared enough about self-discovery to brave the gauntlet of D.L.M. have fallen victim to their own cynicism. They are still trapped by 'M'

'Realizing Knowledge' the ancient glory of radiant beings as portrayed in so many guilded bibles is best viewed with utter simplicity.

The union of fragmented mind with universal mind. The isolated droplet of clear mind that has become trapped by mistaking it's own self-luminous nature as a separate reality. This drop. with it's ductile filament still attached to the Crown, is located in the area of the frontal lobe or forehead. Realizing that separate reality as it's on nature causes a collapse or return to the crown.

No I do not teach or reveal.

Should I have my attorney contact 'M's' attorney?

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 03:30:19 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: Thanks for coming back & replying
Message:
It sounds as if you had only a cursory exposure to the cult of maharaji, and have moved on.

Although it may seem at first glance that the denizens of this forum are 'trapped by M' still, for the most part I don't believe that is so. I can only speak for myself of course; I extricated myself from him only last year, and having been blindly immersed in it for 22 years before that, it is taking some time for all the old fears, thought patterns and brainwashing to clear out. This forum provides a valuable service in terms of support, empathy and a vehicle for expression.

I appreciate you taking the time to write that paragraph depicting 'Realization of Knowldege' It has it's own poetry, which as a writer by profession I can readily appreciate, however I have always had a problem converting those lofty metaphors into usable processes in mundane daily life.

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