Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 11:29:23 (GMT)
From: Jun 17, 2000 To: Jun 23, 2000 Page: 3 Of: 5


george stepalloverus-DC -:- DC program -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 18:43:22 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- DC program -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 18:56:52 (GMT)
__ __ helen -:- DC program -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:12:55 (GMT)

RobertB -:- Too much anger - thanks for the homor -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 17:59:29 (GMT)
__ JtF -:- Too much anger - Rawat is Slime!! -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 18:29:45 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Too much anger - thanks for the homor -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 18:08:27 (GMT)
__ __ RobertB -:- Yesterday's program in alexandria -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:10:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- 'dropped that fat bastard' -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 22:38:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Hi Bob! -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 15:45:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ RobertB -:- one hour meditation -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:02:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- one hour meditation -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 18:48:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- Please, tell us more -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:24:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ RobertB -:- A little more dirt -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:57:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JtF -:- A little more dirt on this cheap dime/dozen cult -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 11:50:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Hey Bob -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 11:48:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- A little more dirt -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:17:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Wipe that smile off your face, Elaine -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:39:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ RobertB -:- Hah, Hah , Hah -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 15:03:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Hah, Hah , Hah -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 22:44:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Meditation is so good for sitting and planning the -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:35:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Meditation is so good for ... -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 20:11:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Thanks to Bob -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:59:41 (GMT)

Charlie -:- All you need is LOVE -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 14:38:12 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- All you need is LOVE -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 18:06:29 (GMT)
__ __ Charlie -:- All you need is LOVE -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:46:20 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- must have been the good drugs -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 17:43:47 (GMT)
__ __ Charlie -:- must have been the good drugs -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 07:50:47 (GMT)
__ __ AWS -:- all you need is love -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 21:17:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- all you need is love -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 21:46:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Annie -:- all you need is love -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:01:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- all you need is love -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:18:11 (GMT)

SB -:- Zombie Lemmings -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 07:08:11 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- Zombie Lemmings -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 12:04:35 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Zombie Lemmings -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:50:47 (GMT)
__ __ Forum Administrator -:- Zombie Lemmings -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 14:17:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- THANK YOU, FA'S!!! -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:43:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Keith -:- THANK YOU, FA'S!!! -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:10:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ham -:- Maybe I'm too idealistic but.... -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 18:43:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hamzen's Fallacy -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:23:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- I've already said that Jim, it's not my point -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:12:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ keith -:- I've already said that Jim, it's not my point -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:28:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Sorry Keith, but you haven't got my point either -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 06:02:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Jim's error -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:44:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- G's error -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:05:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- J's error. -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:07:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Hamzen: (semi-ot) -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 21:06:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- FA's/cq/please nb -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:31:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- the FA's are independent -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:30:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Am I going mad, what is wrong with discussing it? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:48:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- I was speaking in the first person -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:24:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Sorry katie I slipped back in time there for a -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 23:56:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Sorry katie I slipped back in time there for a -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 13:54:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- take a poll ! -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:01:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Nice idea gerr,but what about premie spammers? (nt -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:43:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- oops, flaw in that ointment, but -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:50:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Thats gotta be better than the present sit'n -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:02:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I know ham -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 19:02:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Tricky for sure -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 21:34:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ I forgot -:- OT -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:25:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- So is that a tape swap I hear in the post?! (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:20:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- could be -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 06:19:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Tricky for sure! -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:23:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- and ps to SB -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 19:04:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- and ps to SB -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:33:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- of course I understand -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:59:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- And that means?....nt -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 14:23:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Forum Administrator -:- And that means?....nt -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 14:37:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- And that means?.... -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 14:47:26 (GMT)
__ Mili -:- Zombie Lemmings -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:39:10 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- I'd point out that quote for different reasons -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:38:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mili -:- I'd point out that quote for different reasons -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 19:04:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Yes, the echoe of m in your thought-free mind (?) -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 19:12:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- It's 'echo', not 'echoe' you dummy -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 20:14:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Didn't want to waste space on a typo Mili! -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 20:32:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Didn't want to waste space on a typo Mili! -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:29:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- You've had a day..still want no resolution? -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 20:57:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- I'm sure that I made myself clear Elaine. -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 21:06:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Ok then ... -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 21:56:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Inquisition -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:42:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Extra!Extra!Raina burned as witch by ex-premies!!! -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:53:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- It's not funny, Stonor -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 11:30:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- Inquisition -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:26:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Inquisition -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:52:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ (Sir) David -:- What Mili means but is unable to say -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 18:05:46 (GMT)
__ Oliver -:- Zombie Lemmings -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 07:58:03 (GMT)
__ __ Keith -:- Zombies come in all shapes. -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 11:58:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- my opinion on the raina decision -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:27:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Keith -:- my opinion on the raina decision -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:34:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Problem is organizing it all -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:56:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- The Fallacy of the Middle -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:41:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- The Fallacy of 'The Fallacy of the Middle' -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:29:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Fuck off, G -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:19:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Binary logic -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:41:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're wrong AGAIN, G -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:53:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- The Ayn Rand CULT -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 01:06:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Give me a fucking break, G -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:21:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Binary logic -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 00:32:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Okay, G, read this very, very slowly -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:48:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Keith -:- The truth of the Middle -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:34:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's not what I'm talking about, you idiot -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:25:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ keith -:- you idiot -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:12:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Abusers and abuse also comme in all shapes here! -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 13:18:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Keith -:- Abusers and abuse also comme in all shapes here! -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:41:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- For God's Sake, She's Gone!!! -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:14:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ helen -:- Amen, brother (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:02:27 (GMT)

des -:- advice -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 03:14:10 (GMT)
__ A.P. -:- advice -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 12:06:30 (GMT)
__ O -:- advice -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 18:01:42 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- advice -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:05:10 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- Des this post above is a CLASSIC example of why -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 21:01:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- hamzen,clarify? -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:10:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ham -:- hamzen,clarify? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:14:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- hamzen,clarify? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:50:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- hamzen,clarify? story con't... -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:30:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Absolutely -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:50:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Absolutely -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 15:54:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Absolutely: People're telling you the truth -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 06:07:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Absolutely -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 00:23:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine B. -:- Absolutely -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 01:14:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ O -:- Des this is a CLASSIC example of -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:23:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- The story of O, someone who forgets that I was a -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:39:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ O -:- No I haven't forgotten,and so am I -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:08:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Err O, in case you forgot, Des ASKED a question!!! -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:37:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ O -:- Err O, in case you forgot, Des ASKED a question!!! -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:56:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ex mug -:- Err O, in case you forgot, Des ASKED a question!!! -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 17:22:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Mind if I pop in for a sec? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:09:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Succintly put gerry (nt) -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 00:27:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Now we see the premie cult mindset in all its glor -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 06:49:09 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Know when you've been Tang O'd -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 20:29:17 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- advice -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:10:37 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Oops.. -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 20:38:09 (GMT)
__ Keith -:- advice -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 11:44:02 (GMT)
__ JtF -:- advice/Questions she should ask cult recruiter -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:15:03 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- I AM NOT POSTING AS 'JtF' (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:04:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ JtF -:- I AM NOT POSTING AS Joey (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 18:31:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- and I am not posting as Fifi la Douche. Why? (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 18:37:00 (GMT)
__ Mike Fronke -:- advice -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 07:11:29 (GMT)
__ __ Elaine -:- Mike,huh? -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 14:42:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- You've got to be kidding -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 16:30:42 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Mike forgot something... -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 08:49:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ des -:- Mike forgot something... -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 08:57:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Mike forgot something... -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:10:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ des -:- Mike forgot something... -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:29:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Mike forgot something... -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:57:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Anth that's not exactly how it is anymore... -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 14:53:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Same as ever it was... -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 07:57:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Hmmm - good question -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:16:15 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- I'd be very worried if I were you -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 07:04:23 (GMT)
__ __ des -:- I'd be very worried if I were you -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 08:55:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- Des, very sensible -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 21:06:50 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- advice -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:22:32 (GMT)
__ __ Daneane -:- advice -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:46:13 (GMT)
__ __ des -:- advice -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:32:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- yeah,des.. -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:06:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ O -:- Hey ELaine -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:09:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Hey ELaine -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:46:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Han -:- Hey ELaine -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:01:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- To Han -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 00:53:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ O -:- Hey ELaine -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:52:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Hey ELaine -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:27:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Not bad, Elaine -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 17:06:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Not bad, Elaine -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 20:40:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Not bad, Elaine -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:12:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Not bad, Elaine -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:13:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Not bad, Elaine -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 11:30:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Phil -:- advice -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 14:50:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- advice -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:37:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ O -:- advice -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:44:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Lotus eater -:- addiction to 'joy' -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:47:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Interesting post ,ty NT -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 04:30:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- advice -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:06:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gErRy -:- Des: Run the other way as fast as you can nt -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:29:22 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- do the 'i's' have it? -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 03:49:23 (GMT)
__ __ des -:- do the 'i's' have it? -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:24:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- do the 'i's' have it? -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 06:21:18 (GMT)


Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 18:43:22 (GMT)
From: george stepalloverus-DC
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: DC program
Message:
Dear all-just got back from the DC program yesterday.
Will report back later tonight with more details,but my first take is that rawat is pretty desparate, resorting to stupid jokes and simplistic,inane remarks about the usual things.Party faithful were there,and of course all the usual remarks about a new corner has been turned,we're on a new course etc...
Basically pretty lame,with a new video showing m doing the techniques,one video with the usual nature shots, and a new cd featuring m,stupid observations and new age elevator music that was simply atrocious, that he was touting.
Maybe Ivette liked it!
More to report later, as this dense, profound experience processes itself, and I try not to laugh too hard...
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 18:56:52 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: george stepalloverus-Vc
Subject: DC program
Message:
We have commended you for bravery George and recommended that you be awarded the Victoria Cross. How you can tolerate that level of inane bullshit is a wonder to us all. Well done soldier!
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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:12:55 (GMT)
From: helen
Email: None
To: GS
Subject: DC program
Message:
yes indeed, how you and RObert could have the strong stomachs to go and then report back here to fill us in-thanks.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 17:59:29 (GMT)
From: RobertB
Email: bobb@wintelsolutions.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Too much anger - thanks for the homor
Message:
As a newly unrealized soul, if not a full fledged ex-premie -I went to the Maharaji program in Alexandria just yesterday - I have only one thing to say: This site is a hoot. I'm just a little sorry that my beliefs of the last 25 years are the fodder. At least I didn't walk around in orange robes.

I do have a problem with the hatred of maharaji. It's a choice I made - I will live with it and extract the good, the bitter won't get me much.

Anyway, thanks for listening and thanks for being here, Bob

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 18:29:45 (GMT)
From: JtF
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: Too much anger - Rawat is Slime!!
Message:
That's right....it is...glad you found your way here

soon we'll have a discussion concerning your opinion of the various former foot kissers here

Talk to you soon

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 18:08:27 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: Too much anger - thanks for the homor
Message:
Robert,

Any more details about the program yesterday? I know I speak for more people here than just myself when I say I'm curious as to what was presented by Mr. Rawat and your reactions as a 25 year veteran.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:10:45 (GMT)
From: RobertB
Email: bobb@wintelsolutions.com
To: Way
Subject: Yesterday's program in alexandria
Message:
Way - thanks for the 9 objections.

The program started with a new video, Little Drops of Mercy, spoken by a woman, but with words from the poem maharaji wrote when he was 10. It had nice production values - background music/video fades and overlays of nature - probably a market for this sort of thing should elan vital go 'legit self help' market.

maharaji's talk was a funny monologue about human weakness - nothing really new - some jokes about wishing his fatherless friend happy fathers day - 'well, it's not like he hasn't tried'
Some other good bits. Then came the part where everyone shed tears - about our breath being our constant connection with the creator

I only attended the knowledge review part. Could tell you more about the event 'handlers', that was what got me pissed. An it's been a long time coming, but that was my last event. 25 year career caput! I've had it. I'm actually happy about it, though. I'm more in touch with my self. I'm happy sometimes - and hey that's great! I will still do my 'morning sit down'. I am sad when I think about maharaji and his family.

My options 25 years ago were nil. So I made a few mistakes -

I do feel very, very, releived that I've dropped that baggage (or as my friend, also a 25 year vet, would say, dropped that fat bastard)

Bob, former premie

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 22:38:54 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: 'dropped that fat bastard'
Message:
haha--'dropped that fat bastard'--tell your friend that's a good one, RObert. Congrats on your liberation from needless baggage! I saw a great movie last night 'the third miracle.' Ed Harris plays a priest who has lost his faith but gets it back. I actually like his character best in the film when he is questioning being a priest and what it all means...he was much more human to me at that point. Of course he makes out with Anne Heche at that point too, ha ha, seriously though, their scenes were full of real communication and the scenes of being a Catholic priest looked so goddamned hard. I told my husband that my days of trying to be the perfect saint so I can get into heaven are over, way over. 6 years with Maharaji and about 1 year before that with another guru, blech! Oh great, I am rambling now, Anyway, glad to hear things are going so well for ya...
Helen
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 15:45:41 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: RobertB
Subject: Hi Bob!
Message:
I am a long-time ex-premie, but I lived in the DC community from 72 to 77. I've been involved with the ex-premie.org site (and the forum) since 1997.

Anyway, just wanted to say hello and welcome, and thanks for telling us about the Alexandria program. I almost went to that program (I was just curious to see what programs were like nowadays), but then someone told me there would be an HOUR of meditation with a video of M meditating the whole time (is this true?) Anyway, I knew I couldn't sit through that, and I also knew that I probably couldn't get in because I've been really open about my identity on this forum. I am not the kind of person who would disrupt the program, and I might even still know some of the people in the DC community, but this probably wouldn't have mattered.

Congratulations on your decision to leave. I hope you are doing OK - I think it's really hard to leave after being involved for so long. It feels good, but it's also painful at times. (I have compared it to the process of getting a divorce). It does sound like you're taking care of yourself - hang in there.

Take care,
Katie
(a.k.a. Mischa)

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:02:02 (GMT)
From: RobertB
Email: bobb@wintelsolutions.com
To: Katie
Subject: one hour meditation
Message:
No there wasn't a video of him meditating - there was a slide projected of him meditating
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 18:48:14 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: one hour meditation
Message:
Hi Bob - or do you prefer to be called Robert? -
I heard a second-hand report that it was a video - I thought that would be pretty amazing if true.

Thanks -
Katie

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:24:12 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: Please, tell us more
Message:
about the event handlers. I love those stories.
So the Gestapo were out in full force?

Elaine

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:57:55 (GMT)
From: RobertB
Email: bobb@wintelsolutions.com
To: Elaine
Subject: A little more dirt
Message:
Well, because I'd volunteered for 'service' I was intitled to attend both Sat and Sun - but it seems like I was punished when I only wanted to go Sunday. They refused me an entry pass friday and said I'd have to come back saturday nite. And of course on saturday they changed the rules - I'd have to wait another hour -and picking up the ticket sunday morning was impossible because I'd be so busy with service.
Needless to say when I showed up sun am at 7:00 I was surplus, and being a low-life I couldn't even get into the room where the one person I new was 'serving'. So I sat around and watched - people I have known for 20 years (who now are in the inner circle)didn't even have time for a hello.
So instead of staying for the 5:00 grand pooba's return, I went home and had pizza with my kids - I'd tell you more, but I've always kinda been on the outside looking in, especially the last 15 years. (It's funny, my son is 15) Thank God thats one piece of advice of maharaji that I took - I've said nothing, nadda, zip to my kids. And my wife and I stopped talking about it too. In fact I may wait a few months/years before I tell her I've quit. I've got a lot of sorting-out to do, starting tomorrow morning. I might sit down for an hour, but hey, I might walk down to the river instead. Hope this satisfies you in some way. That's what brought us all to this in the first place - just looking for a little satisfaction, or peace - whatever.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 11:50:41 (GMT)
From: JtF
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: A little more dirt on this cheap dime/dozen cult
Message:
Bob,

At the point I decided to exit this horrible cult, I was in a state of shock. Could I possibly have been so stupid as to buy this outrageous bullshit from Rawat? was this Mr. Mind at its strongest?

I looked at myself first. Had I made an honest effort to follow the recipe for success? What kind of payoff was I getting for my effort? Was I fulfilled?

I then looked at the other premies I knew beyond the satsang/video events. Did they appear to be fulfilled? or, did they appear to be in the same rut as I was? These were all 20+ year cult members.

I then began to consider the possibility that I had presented myself to be conned by Rawat. I read all the info available on this site. Some of it was very helpful. a lot of it fell into the maybe category.

I then decided to use the internet to conduct an extensive study of cults in general. One could spend years doing this. I did come to the conclusion that the Rawat group was a cult...not a cult in the general sense but a stupid outrageous cult(as absurd as Hare Krishna's even-though not as overt). How could I have possibly bought this sack of shit??

Just thought I'd pass this on to you for what it's worth.

Take care,

Mr. Grant

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 11:48:08 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: Hey Bob
Message:
Thanks man,

I empathise with you entirely on this. Enjoy yourself and the walks by the river. It can be quite a stunning realisation to finally see that it wasn't all it was made out to be.

I feel great now to have disconnected myself from all that stuff. It's a relief not to have to meditate every day and attend those video/satellite events. I exited last Feb after discovering these websites.

Best wishes
hal

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:17:03 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: A little more dirt
Message:
Typical event Gestapo stuff. Love it. It continues.

If you think of any more juicy service stories I'm all ears.
Thanks

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:39:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Wipe that smile off your face, Elaine
Message:
To start with, you're a liar. You do too read my posts, especially this one addressed to you.

But the main point is this: what makes you think you're any different than these so-called 'gestapo-types'? Like you've got a better personality or something? Or maybe you're not really into serving Maharaji no matter what? You're worse than them, Elaine. You're smug and superfical and a complete traitor to the teacher you claim to follow. No wonder you post under a pseudonym.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 15:03:21 (GMT)
From: RobertB
Email: bobb@wintelsolutions.com
To: All
Subject: Hah, Hah , Hah
Message:
Well, after renouncing the Guru yesterday, I was in for a pleasant surprise this morning. My 'morning sit down' was like usual, mostly planning my day. But when I dropped my kid off at summer camp, that nice warm feeling was right there in my heart - sans guru. I can't beleive I was so stupid.

Thanks for all the support - I have several more thoughts for anyone listing:

1. I regret not finishing school so I could follow the guru
The truth: I had already quit school twice before

2. I regret spending 8 years doing menial work so I could 'constantly meditate'
The truth: I was in the grips of anxiety and probably undiagnosed neurosis. Shedding that pain (and I have to some degree) was going to take years anyway.

3. The guru is one sick puppy.
The truth: The guru is one sick MF

I will not leave behind some things that people (both premie and otherwise) have taught me:

1. Simple is nice
2. I don't have to explain anything - esp. to myself - there may not be grace, or god, but there is kindness and beauty
3. The right effort is priceless

And when all else fails, laugh (that stupid woman behind me at the program was shouting, 'happy fathers day' to rawat. Now thats funny.)
Thanks again for being here

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 22:44:21 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: Hah, Hah , Hah
Message:
Hey once again, great post RObert. Good thing you didn't pour this madness onto your kids. Isn't it interesting how you didn't tell the people you love the most about M and K? Like a part of you knew deep down that you didn't want to burden them with it?
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:35:43 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: Meditation is so good for sitting and planning the
Message:
day. Yeah, thanks for reminding me Bob. That's why my days have been a little less organised. Seriously though , the meditation experience hasn't changed for me either. I just don't sit there being a begger. We are not beggars. This is our true self we connect with in meditation. It doesn't come from anywhere outside. M is a hijacker of the heart, a robber, a thief and a saboteur.

I'm not getting too cosmic here I hope, have to be careful with that.
Hal

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 20:11:04 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Meditation is so good for ...
Message:
Meditation is so good for ...

...for remembering that it's good to be alive?

Undoubtedly.

Strange, though, that M's angle is somehow to include himself in that awareness. And somehow he insinuates that feeling good to be alive is somehow dependent on him.

One very tricky, very sneaky con, that is.

You put it beautifully, Hal: 'we are not beggars'

But guess who's still living off the proceeds of our spare change?

But you've got to laugh. As if the cash I threw his way gives him any kind of lasting pleasure! Ha!

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:59:41 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Thanks to Bob
Message:
Thanks Bob,

A bitter-sweet story. The little details you provide are tragic/comedic. You said that this site is a hoot, but that really describes this whole affair. It really provides some big laughs on occasion. The ironic ending to the story is that we do get so much more in touch with outselves when we leave the Big Promiser once and for all. There is something precious, and real, and our own children show it to us far clearer than any guru ever could.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 14:38:12 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: All you need is LOVE
Message:
On Saturday last Lee and I had a Bar-B-Que in our back garden. There were many people who came including quite a few old faces from our past. Yes, premies! Everyone had a really cracking time throughout the day and in the evening we all watched the England vs. Germany match together which was a hoot.

By the time the last person had left I was totally smashed. I was so stoned it was like an acid trip - a mental condition I've been wondering about ever since going ex. At once I could see quite clearly how I was able to get into the cult as a youngster. It seems the same mental mechanisms that existed in me when I was seventeen still remain with me today. When I was stoned as a teenager everything in the world seemed fantastic like I'd just awoken in a fabulous fairy story BUT there was also the chance of the dreaded BAD TRIP. If you had a good trip it was heaven but if it was bad NOTHING COULD BE WORSE!! A bad trip was hell itself paranoia heaped upon paranoia, is my girlfriend and my best friend cheating on me, visions of what for me were the mostly ugly things possible, pain, torture, murder, death, death of myself, my family and my loved ones in the most horrible ways, GOD turns out to be SATAN - maybe you get the picture. Despite all my good times I had also tendency to see life from a most awful perspective rather too often than I wanted so I wanted a way out. Simply giving up psychedelic drugs was not enough for me, my head was in turmoil.

Maharaji seemed to offer the alternative but all it turned out to be was a clever repackaging of technique called burying your head in the sand. 'Hey kid, come over here and stick your face into this hole and tell me if you can see any light - it's great when you do'. I took up the invitation and adopted the required position and for years looked into that hole hoping to see the light. Occasionally I did see light but when I said so was told 'no, that's not the real light, that's just the light of the mind, keep looking, the divine light is brighter than the one you describe'. So I kept on looking and eventually after more years went by I started to wonder why my backside was so sore. 'Ah yes, we all have a sore arse but that is your mind trying to distract you from looking for the light' was a stock answer to complaints.

Well of course I eventually pulled my head out of that hole and realised that for years I'd been shafted good and proper. Sure I'm pissed off at the wasted years and worse still I find that it's the same old horrifying world out here that I hid away from all those years ago. All I see is a black hole into which everything is spiralling with no point and no direction. It seems that in life we are all sort of check-mated from the start, the remainder of our lives being the journey to the corner where the shit finally hits the fan. I find the whole business extremely frightening so have always had a natural cowardly tendency to hide my head in the sand. M&K did just nicely for that and I do not deny that for a time it did seem to take the pain out of life and for some of that time I really enjoyed myself. However when I meet premies today I am asked why I am now trying to rewrite history 'Charlie you remember how it was, we were all happy, you were happy, happy, happy, happy how can you turn on Maharaji like this'. Yes, yes of course there were happy times, but at that time we believed the age of miracles was not over and we believed heaven itself was about to manifest here on planet earth. If you believe in that kind of thing then of course you'll be happy but I challenge any premie who witnessed those heady days of yesteryear to show me that we're one iota nearer to that crazy dream and are they any happier. Of course not, because it was never true.

We see today how the message, the promise and the master have all shrunken to pathetic proportions but still there are those who continue to try ungracefully to push their faces into the ground and believe the dream is still alive. The dirt that once buried their heads is all dried up and blown away but their eyes are still tight in denial. It was indeed all a fucking lie. The world always has a portion of lying con artists looking for marks we ran across a good one on that fateful day. It can be argued that psychologically we wanted to be taken by the con artist but that is no excuse for the con artist to practice his art. He is most certainly wrong and must be made to see the shameful thing he is doing. To all you premies out there just ask yourselves whether TRUTH still has any value? How can you continue to believe and protect something fundamentally wrong because of a few happy and carefree times you once had?

On Saturday we all had a totally brilliant party and I loved all who were there and they loved me back exes and premies alike. I am so very lucky to know such wonderful and kind people, it is they who teach me, we learn from each other from our efforts, our struggles, our successes and our failures but there is not one among us who is attempting to stand higher than the rest (at least not on Saturday). I don't know whether it was just the way the weather was on the day but I felt that life really had some beautiful aspects.

In the quiet of the night and the clamour of the trip I could see how so many beautiful people could be so callously used by another who recognised their weakness and was (and still is) prepared to exploit it. I hate to say it but I can also see why some of us can't shake off that dependency on a Guru, the fear and uncertainty in life still upsets me and I almost would like to believe the fairy story again. I can't rewrite history and nor do I want to, it's just plain for us all to see. Yes, I am all fucked now up but I can at least recognise and admit why. I never loved Maharaji, I loved the wonderful people I met and lived with, they were honest and prepared to trust - I felt reassurance when I was with them. Maharaji never showed us love, we showed each other love.

I don't expect all the premies I know will end up posting on Ex-Premie forum but I definitely see that many more eyes are opening up to see the facts and are turning away from M&K.

I long to find the peace of God
I despair that there is no such thing
I am amazed at the beauty and kindness that people can display
I am horrified at the greed, selfishness and hate that people can display
I fear my death and losing my mind

thank you and good night

The Beatles forever!!!

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 18:06:29 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: All you need is LOVE
Message:
Dear Charlie,
As always, an excellent read! :)
Was I lucky because I never had a bad trip or was it a guy who sat me down before I ever tried it who explained that it was all in my control and if it wasn't good that I could change it around.
Anyway, I've wanted to write to you and tell you how much another post of yours helped me a long time ago. You wrote about having a life that you had neglected for to long and that once you were over the worst that you didn't have the time to spend here. You had a family and a house that took your efforts and attenting. I looked around and was sitting in a messy house and knew the forum was taking to much of my time. I stopped being so taken up in the 'life' of the forum and although I miss a lot of the little world here and even though my life is now in the midst of great change, I am there with it and I still stop in here but it has become much less a part of my day to day. Thanks for that post Charlie. Simple message but you know how sometimes you hear something over and over and you know all the words but the meaning just eludes you? I don't know but that happens to me, well your post just clicked for me and I turned a corner and got more into my own life which really needed my attention!
Glad you had a good party and that exes and premies got along. Your so right, most of the premies were great people, I've read it here from many and it was also my experience. M was only what we made him, what we let him be, cause really it was just us all the time.
Love to you and yours,
Robyn wishing she could have been there! :)
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:46:20 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: All you need is LOVE
Message:
Hi Robyn,

it's nice of you to say that I've been a 'help' in some way. Really it just seemed logical that I must at some point move on from the forum but at that time did not know how it would happen. There is only so much time in the day and I have to try to use it well. I have a lot of expenses and don't earn cartloads of dosh so end up working excessively long hours to make ends meet. If I carried on posting and getting caught up in long threads I wouldn't be able to deliver to deadlines at all.

Having said that I still read a bit of the forum each week as you also seem to. Yesterday I felt the need to put something down about my experience over the weekend which had caught me off guard. This was the first group contact with my old pals for over a year so I was kind of nervous about how things would work out. They are all aware of my view on M&K but their initial shock has subsided. Now, because the friction is down I was as prepared as I could be to have a get together, I had been seriously worried whether some valuable friendships had been lost forever. Broken friendship has been a major issue for me as I'm sure it is also a concern for many other exes. I could see myself becoming ever more isolated as time goes by which to an extent is bound to happen anyway but not quite so abruptly and for such poor reasons.

I guess all I wanted to say in my post is that at the end of the day we seem to be made of stronger stuff than I expected. I am very glad about that.

Take good care... Charlie

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 17:43:47 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: must have been the good drugs
Message:
Just kidding Charlie. I always sucked as a devotee because I never much gave whit for Maharaji. Like you, it was always the friends I made, the sense of belonging. In particular at that time for me it was having so many people my age with young children like mine, and sharing parenting with them.
Once M made the stupid blunder of taking all that away, there was nothing much left for me except staring at a fat guy in a chair.

Hell I could just get married for that! again, just kidding - my husband isn't fat! :)

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 07:50:47 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: must have been the good drugs
Message:
Selene,

Actually I am so sensitive these days I think I'd get high on asprin.

I have seen a lot of exes on the board who seem to live in premie communities where nobody knows they've gone ex. They are nervous about coming out for various reasons which must be respected but I hope that they can at least find some clues from mine and other peoples experience what it's like to completely drop the curtain.

Cheers

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 21:17:51 (GMT)
From: AWS
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: all you need is love
Message:
I received Knowledge [72] because I wanted peace, and I
had been waiting for the Lord. There was no instant anything.
I kept realizing that if I wanted to experience something
via Knowledge, I needed to practice Knowledge. There was much
confusion, directions always shifting, always changing in the
advice I heard on how to be, how to do service, how to sit,
how to think or not think. All the concepts about everything,
Maharaji included, the past and future included.
But from the beginning I understood the essence of it
to be this: that the present moment is everything.
The present moment contains what I want. I have found
that Knowledge is the means by which I can remain
here, and now. This is not burying my head in the sand.
But it is where I find my balance. In facing down fears, and
becoming unafraid. In hearing criticism, and examining myself.
In dealing with failure, success, births, deaths, parenting,
schooling, all the aspects of my life and every bit of it.

Every moment of it. It has nothing to do with believing
anything particular about Maharaji. It's just that
Knowledge is real to me. I do not refer to the techniques,
but to the experience inside myself. I did not have it before
I received Knowledge. I have had it since. It is the one thing
which makes absolute sense to me.

Here on the forum I have at times been forced to examine my
words, my thoughts, my beliefs -- because so many here will
brutally challenge anything that is not authentic.
Personally I believe this is a good thing. I have learned the
most from the times of my life when I have been challenged.

I also believe, as I think someone here was writing recently,
that is IS really important for people to feel their feelings,
their OWN feelings, and to consider them valid.
If the feelings are angry, or hateful, or so-called
'negative' -- still they are valid for the one who feels
them. Emotions stuffed down, or righteously rationalized
away become toxic, that's my opinion. I have learned alot
about healthy anger from watching my children grow up.

I really don't believe there is that much of a huge difference
between premies and ex-premies or people who have never heard
of Maharaji for that matter. Everyone is growing, finding their
own way. Eventually we will all go back to dust. Meanwhile I do
believe that all we need is love. That's the whole point.
Annie Sosman

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 21:46:27 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: wwilliam@kumc.edu
To: AWS
Subject: all you need is love
Message:
Annie,

We've never met but I know your brother, who also has Knowledge. If you care to discuss anything off-line, feel free to email me at the above address.

I find all the statements, opinions, and feelings expressed in your post to be similar to my own, except the part about the inner experience of Knowledge being something you 'didn't have' before receiving Knowledge.

I don't mean to attempt to engage you in an argument here about what particularly constitutes that inner experience, because I feel it is too personal and too subtle to argue about. My point only is that I relate to the 'experience' of Knowledge that I enjoyed during my premie years as something inherent to myself and everyone else, and experienced each time compassion overrides separateness. I certainly had those moments before my Knowledge session and of course many times since.

Best wishes.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:01:10 (GMT)
From: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Way
Subject: all you need is love
Message:
Hi Way -- I also don't want to engage in a conflict but
just wanted to clarify something. You wrote:

<< My point only is that I relate to the 'experience'
of Knowledge that I enjoyed during my premie years as
something inherent to myself and everyone else, and
experienced each time compassion overrides separateness.
I certainly had those moments before my Knowledge session
and of course many times since. >>

I too had those moments. What I meant by not having it before
receiving Knowledge is that I didn't know how to access the
feeling in me, how to stay there, how to string those
moments together. Previous to my Knowledge session, it was
a random beautiful occurrence, an 'elusive butterfly.'

I am curious about your acquaintance with my brother and please
feel free to email me if you like.
Annie

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:18:11 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: all you need is love
Message:
Annie,

Your point of clarification is well-taken. I especially like the phrase 'elusive butterfly' in this regard, it is both beautiful and appropriate. However, this brings us to another point, and that is the common difficulty with premies in regard to accessing that experience through some sort of discipline. That discipline might be a struggle to meditate in a rigidly prescribed manner, or the effort to 'get a hit' off the guru, so to speak. It remains a delicate matter, yes? The butterfly is not so easily captured!

As for G.S. and others we may know, I will email you soon.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 07:08:11 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Zombie Lemmings
Message:
Is Raina a premie who enjoys disrupting the forum creating conflicts in form of arrosive words? She loves disatraccion from Gobber...she is so busy writting...hmmm...I brought this here because it deserves a better place!

Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000 at 23:25:14
From: raina
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Your martyr complex
Message:
what is 'stupe'? short for 'stupid'?
What I dig most about sounding dumb in front of people, is the way they end up sounding dumber when they hatefully laugh at me you know? I've relied on this 'technique' since I heard M say 'The things you don't know, are just as important as the things you do.' It's like looking into people's souls while they are making fun of me.........and I am truly comfortable with my 'void'!,/i> I absolutely LAUGH at the idea that I am supposed to be ashamed of any detail of my life-in order to be accepted by a bunch of zombie lemmings! The 'void' is the place where I can read minds sometimes! and hear things, and see things, notice things that the sleeping world is too busy raping themselves to bother noticing...........this place has me appreciating M more than ever! Too ironic! (just for saying that people will assume the worst.....but fuck it.........)

Words have power. More than ever, she says: She ALWAYS appreciated Lard... Hmmm... No further comment. I'm running off of ink...;) zzzzzzzzzzz.......

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 12:04:35 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Zombie Lemmings
Message:
From looking thru the recent postings Raina has successfully filled up this forum with stuff unrelated to the subject.

She is either a 'premie plant' sent to disrupt,or she is being how she is. It doesn't matter which one is true since either way she is clogging up the place with unrelated rubbish which makes people visiting the site not want to come back.

The fact that she is continually allowed to post this stuff here baffles me.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:50:47 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Zombie Lemmings
Message:
Hi!

I just got home from work and haven't read much, but I noticed that Raina's posts were deleted...I haven't read anything yet from the FA, but I think that if it was deliberataly done it was inappropiate...But, I haven't read ALL her posts, so, maybe she wrote something REALLY bad and the FA had his/her motives. I began to get really tired of her BS...and I reacted, maybe not very well, but I did. Raina's insults were too much!

Who she is maybe a mistery but her abusive language isn't...

The whole thing is stupid but it feels good to know that others think like me about this absurdity...

Chau,

SB

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 14:17:20 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Zombie Lemmings
Message:
She's gone.

FA

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:43:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: THANK YOU, FA'S!!!
Message:
I really don't think premies or friends of the guru in any form should ever take their welcome here for granted. Obvious reasons and no, I don't give a shit about the so-called 'free speech' issue. I'm in my River of Answers phase.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:10:47 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: THANK YOU, FA'S!!!
Message:
Yah! Herr Jim. Und you are ze first to kick up za fuss about M's tyrannical and fascist vays. You are za hypocritical piece of nasty poo. hiel Jim!!
Quote from za great one ; 'I don't give a shit about the so-called 'free speech' issue.' Wow!
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 18:43:49 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maybe I'm too idealistic but....
Message:
I can appreciate your reaction, much as I avoided her after trying to say hello and realizing there was no point, sometimes ended up reading occasional posts by her, (a little hard to avoid the me me me'ness)and exploding, yesterday was a classic example, I do think we need to work out a way of dealing with the nuisance factor without banning.

Yeah I remember the idiot hacker posts last year etc etc which were asking to be sorted out BUT

The doubt is that my major complaint against big boy is that he thrived & still thrives, even if much less effectively now, on various forms of censorship, whether self censorship or otherwise. In fact all authoritarian leaders, whether cult or not cannot exist without this one key component.
The reason I LOVED this site above all when I first arrived was the feeling that there was NO censorship here apart from direct threats of violence.
No guru can exist without the acceptance of censorship, and any form of it takes it too close for my liking to a form of compromise, but for me this site is as much about fighting authoritarianism as it is specifically about big boy.

Thats my problem, because as I know from personal experience this site is NOT democratic, and ONLY democracy can truly confront this shit. GM is not just an isolated individual, he could only thrive exactly because his route is acceptable within a wider spiritual community, and bearing in mind the way Clinton is snuggling up to the moonies & the scientologists at this moment, the wider community.

In a situation like this maybe we could have a proposal mechanism
close to voting rights so that if someone thinks someone else should be banned, registered voters could make the decision. I'm not happy that unknown individuals have this power.

I'm sure this is just my problem, and I'm praying I don't get the standard authoritarian FA response to this, the feedback I got from a previous FA definitely reduced my committment to this site, but then that FA would have said tough shit.
As I write this last para I'm also aware that others might have been driven away by my language at times, so who knows?
A tricky one.

Any ideas??
Considering your position at the mo maybe you're the wrong person to be asking, but on these kind of issues I've always found your responses interesting rather than aggravating even when I don't agree with you.

Hoping you had a good one sat night.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:23:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Hamzen's Fallacy
Message:
Ham,

I think you've got it wrong here. Just because Maharaji censors people (and that's not the half of it, really. He stops people from even having 'bad' thoughts, let alone voicing them) doesn't mean that anything akin to censorship is following in his footsteps somehow. Hardly. We could make this page 'invitation-only'. We could require names and passwords. We could require that one pass an ex-premie litmus test for applicant contributors, forcing them to say, five times, 'Maharaji is a poo poo head and I hope he is omnipresent because I want him to hear me laughing at his fat, greasy ass and yes, I hope Monica Lewis was well-compensated for her service over the years' before they can post and it would in no way invite a reasonable comparison to anything Maharaji's done.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:12:28 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I've already said that Jim, it's not my point
Message:
The doubt is that my major complaint against big boy is that he thrived & still thrives, even if much less effectively now, on various forms of censorship, whether self censorship or otherwise. In fact all authoritarian leaders, whether cult or not cannot exist without this one key component.
The reason I LOVED this site above all when I first arrived was the feeling that there was NO censorship here apart from direct threats of violence.
No guru can exist without the acceptance of censorship, and any form of it takes it too close for my liking to a form of compromise, but for me this site is as much about fighting authoritarianism as it is specifically about big boy.

Ie what is a primary colour for goober, well even a tint of that primary colour makes me sick

When I was first here I remember you having a long argument with the fa's at that time about transparency
I'm not saying don't ban, just not arbitrarily without any discussion

and to carry cq's point on, what about the principle?

I didn't even suggest for a moment that we were even remotely close to goobers take, surely the quote above from my previous post makes that explicit
but why no discussion??
limited banning, alternate sundays, only five posts a week whatever etc
yeah raina was obnoxious, no-ones disputing that, but say she was trying to break free, but in that pre stage where you deny like mad, bearing in mind her fluctuating state of mind and her isolation as a human being I'd rather we covered ourselves, otherwise one day we just might find ourselves responsible for an accident, not at all fanciful to imagine

general discussion would reflect the take in a much more democratic fashion
I just can't see the problem with that
am I being dense here??

and lastly my other point was that it's a lack of transparency and mild abuse in our culture that is accepted as ok, see clinton getting into bed with the moonies etc
surely you of all people, someone who never compromises in discussions with premies or new agers, for a reason, can see what I'm getting at here & more importantly why I'm getting at it
goober isn't just a one off, couldn't have survived in the early days without a culture to grow in, and that culture to grow in is founded on compromise in this territory.
He is not the solitary exponent of spiritual abuse through censorship in this culture

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:28:01 (GMT)
From: keith
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: I've already said that Jim, it's not my point
Message:
Let us at least agree on this issue Ham. For Jim or others to defend censorship on the basis that it cannot be compared with Maharaji is a cheap, weak opt out. This forum should be judged in the end on its own merits, even if I make allegorical comparisons and parodies of things it reminds me of. It is a 'principle' greater than personal affiliations and belief systems, imo.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 06:02:37 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: keith
Subject: Sorry Keith, but you haven't got my point either
Message:
Personally I'd like to limit your new age posts drastically, but only after a vote, or general discussion where it was the majority view, I'm not a libertarian, I'm a democrat.

You are better than the last time you were here, but still all I'm hearing is, me, me, me, me, me,

you're another one who could use some zen

& learn the value of silence

why come here and wind people up?

there are loads of new age chat sites where you'd be in your element?
doesn't your guru have a site?

why here?

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:44:25 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim's error
Message:
Your error is that you think you impress people by using the word 'Fallacy'. By using that oh so official sounding word, you think people will be intimidated by your Logical Authority. Try to understand, just because someone says something you disagree with, that doesn't make it a 'Fallacy'.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:05:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: G
Subject: G's error
Message:
G thinks that if he keeps using the boring term philosophical materialism, people will think there's an alternative to common sense.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:07:32 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: J's error.
Message:
Jim if you think for one moment that you are the great judge of what is and isn't common sense you are sorely self deluded, imo.
That is indeed your fallacy! More like common stuckness more like it. You are so up yourself I don't know how you bear the pain.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 21:06:15 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: ham
Subject: Hamzen: (semi-ot)
Message:
Hi Ham,

Did you read my post to you last night before the thread vanished? (if not I'll repeat the important bit: I belatedly received your recent email. Thanks. I'll reply soon. I only have limited access to my 'redcrow' mailbox, so the above email address is better all round at the moment.)

Just a comment on the 'democracy' question: I don't think you can think in terms of democracy on the web unless you have some form of site 'membership'. Otherwise, who gets to vote - the people happening to be on-line on any given day? And unless such membership - or just the voting rights you mentioned - included the recording of personal details (which wouldn't bother me but would deter many posters) wouldn't you then have the problem of spammed membership applications from would-be disrupters? I think that would only escalate the problem to a different level. A committee of known individuals might be one solution, but then, apart from the numbers of opinions involved, would that be so very different from the current system of admins? (And although these are anonymous, we can assume they are at least known and trusted to Brian and Katie, who are not anonymous, and are presumably ultimately accountable). Hmm, I don't think this is ever going to be an easy question to answer, but maybe the current system is as good as we can hope for, even if we sometimes don't like the decisions made.

BTW: Much as I disliked the idiotic and indecipherable content of raina's posts, or their sheer weight of numbers, I wasn't for blocking her outright. Possibly a warning first then limiting her posting rights to x words or y posts per day - which is how Brian dealt with Keith during his former multi-posting phase a couple of years ago - but maybe that would involve a lot of work for the FA's unless there is software which could do it automatically.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:31:58 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: FA's/cq/please nb
Message:
Sorry Nigel, used that e-mail add without thinking!

Just a comment on the 'democracy' question: I don't think you can think in terms of democracy on the web unless you have some form of site 'membership'. Otherwise, who gets to vote - the people happening to be on-line on any given day? And unless such membership - or just the voting rights you mentioned - included the recording of personal details (which wouldn't bother me but would deter many posters) wouldn't you then have the problem of spammed membership applications from would-be disrupters? I think that would only escalate the problem to a different level. A committee of known individuals might be one solution, but then, apart from the numbers of opinions involved, would that be so very different from the current system of admins? (And although these are anonymous, we can assume they are at least known and trusted to Brian and Katie, who are not anonymous, and are presumably ultimately accountable). Hmm, I don't think this is ever going to be an easy question to answer, but maybe the current system is as good as we can hope for, even if we sometimes don't like the decisions made.

BTW: Much as I disliked the idiotic and indecipherable content of raina's posts, or their sheer weight of numbers, I wasn't for blocking her outright. Possibly a warning first then limiting her posting rights to x words or y posts per day - which is how Brian dealt with Keith during his former multi-posting phase a couple of years ago - but maybe that would involve a lot of work for the FA's unless there is software which could do it automatically.

Except that in the current situation, because the fa's are anonymous, and the guidelines they use are not transparent or or to me consistent, similar situations will continually re-occur.
Until, or if, a way of dealing with future occurences is sorted,
the limited postings sounds like an ideal compromise to me, especially re raina, but also as a way out of cq's argument above which parallels my position, but if the current fa's are in communication with brian & katie surely that approach would have been used here??

Re the democracy angle I just can't believe that some reasonable compromise couldn't be sorted.
Re committee and membership, been thinking identically, although that does increase the 'clubbiness' aspect which for obvious reasons I'm sure we'd all want to avoid,

even fa's posting a thread asking how people felt would balance the censorship angle, again crucial at the moment for cq's argument

at least that way there would be some transparency without the fa's massively increasing their workload

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:30:29 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: ham
Subject: the FA's are independent
Message:
Hi Ham and Nigel -
I just wanted to say that the FA's are completely independent of me and Brian & they make ALL their own decisions re the forum. I do know who they are, and I trust them to do the right thing, as they see it. I don't always agree with them, but they probably wouldn't always agree with me if I were the FA. And having BEEN an FA at one time, I am not going to publically argue with any of their decisions.

And if Raina's reading this, by chance, I just wanted to say hi and that my conversations with you were quite interesting. I know you don't like e-mail, but I have put my address above.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:48:22 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Am I going mad, what is wrong with discussing it?
Message:
Whatever we say the fa's can choose to listen or ignore, already know that, remember!!

Forget the fa's, the fa's aren't arguing with anyone, what do you think about the issues Katie?

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:24:37 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: I was speaking in the first person
Message:
Hi Ham -
I didn't say it couldn't be discussed, just that *I* personally didn't want to discuss it - there's a difference.

I feel sad about this whole incident, to tell you the truth.

Katie

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 23:56:36 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Sorry katie I slipped back in time there for a
Message:
moment, to similar discussions before, just momentarily though!!
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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 13:54:59 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Sorry katie I slipped back in time there for a
Message:
Well, I hope you'll forgive Brian SOME day. He really isn't THAT bad...

At least you have Keith sympathizing with you now about censorship (snicker)!

Take care, Ham -
Katie

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:01:27 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: take a poll !
Message:
We could 'vote' on one of those free poll sites, though even as I write it, it sounds kinda cold and cruel. But it could be done. And there's a poll site which allows a single vote per person. Vantage.com, I believe.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:43:47 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Nice idea gerr,but what about premie spammers? (nt
Message:
a
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:50:15 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: oops, flaw in that ointment, but
Message:
maybe there could be some 'registration' just for voting on the poll. Eek, this gets sticky and sounds real clubby. There's gotta be a solution, though. Would do you think of my 'time out' idea whereby the 'offender' gets blocked from posting for a short time with maybe a 'three strikes and yer out' clause?
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:02:59 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Thats gotta be better than the present sit'n
Message:
but only after a thread discussion at least
even rough & ready consensus voting would be better than this,
why give ammunition to goober just because we haven't thought this through
I mean the guy is on the ropes
the arguments won, it's just self sabotage

leaving aside cq's argument about the principal

an argument by the way I got ridiculed for, by a former fa

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 19:02:08 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: I know ham
Message:
I'm sure it was tough call all around.
Censorship in all forms bothers me. As cq said above, especially coming at a time like this.
But it was all starting to be so hard. I mean, I really LIKE SB and didn't even feel comfortable posting to her after a while.
I hate censorship but I also hate feeling intimidated. Which is a personal problem I know.
Voting may be an answer. I wanted to believe that just the natural reactions and flow of communications would take care of raina's anger and all. But, I also am thinking there may be premies or others who come here deliberately and only to disrupt and this may continue in the future.
Don't have any answer. Like some of your ideas though and appreciate you posting this.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 21:34:12 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Tricky for sure
Message:
so that maybe someone could come up with some ideas.

I'm not even completely clear how I feel about it all,
and hope sb doesn't take my questions badly, or my stance

just another angle on the trickiness of it all,
just that we've been through this before
and never felt completely comfortable about 'our' take on it here

although when those illogical multiple spammers were around
my conscience and idealism was less bothered
so even my 'principles' are not cast in stone

ain't the net interesting
like the last place on the planet left to explore
but completely conceptual, fascinating

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:25:34 (GMT)
From: I forgot
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: OT
Message:
I like your music...I heard a tape you sent Robyn and I can tell you have good ears. :) Me too!

SB

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:20:24 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: ham@hamzen.freeserve.co.uk
To: I forgot
Subject: So is that a tape swap I hear in the post?! (nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 06:19:17 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: could be
Message:
I'm still waiting for the 'secured line'
:)
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:23:01 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Tricky for sure!
Message:
Hi Ham!

I'm not sure that I have read all of Raina's posts and I'm thinking that maybe since last night that I read her last post maybe she wrote something outrageous and got blocked...Answers will come. The delition of all her posts is what I don't understand, very clearly. In a way I think is better...

You said:

I'm not even completely clear how I feel about it all,
and hope sb doesn't take my questions badly, or my stance

Ham, I don't feel bad for other people's opinions...Help yourself... LOL ;)

SB

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 19:04:12 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: and ps to SB
Message:
You are ok I hope. I'm sure you are, you are one tough woman.
I wish I could have been more supportive.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:33:51 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: and ps to SB
Message:
I feel...not well...I really got bothered by raina's words but didn't expect this to happen. I got tired of her comments about me. Now I wonder what happened, because people here seem to believe she needed help...But then, who is Raina? I'm confused about her desapearance but in the same time, relieved of not having to wonder what she's saying about me anymore. It may seem from out there that it shouldn't had bothered me, but it did. Do you understand?

Thanks for caring.

Love,

S

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:59:44 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: of course I understand
Message:
If someone came at me like that, I'd be very upset.
I am not quite sure what happened. All her posts and threads
were deleted? Is that it?
I'm tired and foggy from a dentist visit. Worse than any forum
flames! I hate dentists. And here I thought I even liked this one.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 14:23:48 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: And that means?....nt
Message:
om
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 14:37:03 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: And that means?....nt
Message:
it means she is no longer welcome here.

If you'd like to discuss it further Elaine, or anyone else, I'd prefer to do it by email.

FA

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 14:47:26 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: And that means?....
Message:
No,that's ok - no discussion necessary. I appreciate your invite,tho.
I guess I was curious about the technical stuff was all. Like how does one stop someone from posting - but I wouldn't understand it anyway.
Must be like a block on the telephone.

No need to respond. A person could probably still read tho I imagine.
Thanks anyway, Elaine

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:39:10 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: SB
Subject: Zombie Lemmings
Message:
I can really relate to what Raina said. Posting and repeatedly getting humiliated here just made me realize how much Maharaji and Knowledge were precious to me in fact - even to the point of being 'extremist'. It's a rough way to go, but it's intense medication for sure.

Have you seen the latest posts on ELK?

'A blind man can't see and a deaf man can't hear, but a person who is not aware of his breath is DEAD.'

Whooie! Way to go, Maharaji...

:o)

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:38:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: I'd point out that quote for different reasons
Message:
Very, very funny that you'd say that, Mili. M's indifference to morality coupled with this rhetoric dismissive of, say, 99.9999 % of the human race says it all.

By the way, you're an asshole. When was the last time I told you that? You'll NEVER be comfortable here. This is an EX forum. You're still in the cult. I mean, really!

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 19:04:30 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: I'd point out that quote for different reasons
Message:
Do I hear an echo in here?
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 19:12:20 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Yes, the echoe of m in your thought-free mind (?)
Message:
Yes, the echoe of m in your thought-free mind (?)
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 20:14:27 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Stonor
Subject: It's 'echo', not 'echoe' you dummy
Message:
And you're teaching people English? Sheesh.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 20:32:42 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Didn't want to waste space on a typo Mili!
Message:
Anything to avoid the point, right? You ARE smallminded - guess it's a case of atrophy.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:29:57 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Stonor
Subject: Didn't want to waste space on a typo Mili!
Message:
That wasn't a 'point' Stonor, but an insult - plain and simple. We both know it. So, why should I bother even responding to it, except perhaps in kind?
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 20:57:12 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: You've had a day..still want no resolution?
Message:
Stonor,
I don't know what you were hurt by - I don't play guessing games- want to tell me now?

There might be a chance of resolve,you know. I'm still willing. You may not like me,but my intent was not to be hurtful to you.

Doesn't that count for something. We can agree to disagree and have some modicum of peace.

What else can I do here? I'm asking for a door to resolution - are you going to shut that door? Hope not.

Elaine

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 21:06:16 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: I'm sure that I made myself clear Elaine.
Message:
There is nothing to discuss and you know it. And I don't appreciate what you imply by, 'You've had a day..still want no resolution?' Reminds of the Grand Inquisitor giving someone their last chance to recant. Sorry - I can't come up with an example on a less 'grand' scale right now.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 21:56:09 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Ok then ...
Message:
Stonor,
Then you'll have to be satisfied with knowing that I don't have the foggiest idea what you're talking about --so be it,then.

Elaine

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:42:29 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Stonor
Subject: Inquisition
Message:
I don't know where you're coming from Stonor, honestly I don't. Don't you see the real Inquisition is right here on the Ex-premie page? People are being judged whether they are premies or not, and anyone who is deemed too sympathetic to Maharaji is tortured accordingly. Raina just failed the test and she got 'burned as a witch'. Can't you see that? Thank God it's only a 'virtual' thing, not reality. Still, I shudder at what would have happened if she actually somehow got stuck in the same room with Jim and his cronies with no means of escape.

All this talk about 'cults'...

Just how bigoted and intolerant can you be?

Talk about narrow-mindedness!!!

It's the dark ages revisited, can't you see that? Or are you too blinded by hate and prejudice yourself?

You seemed like a decent human being when we first began corresponding. Now, I just can't stop being amazed...

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:53:29 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Extra!Extra!Raina burned as witch by ex-premies!!!
Message:
Mili scores big scoop!
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 11:30:27 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Stonor
Subject: It's not funny, Stonor
Message:
Or are you being so callous and insensitive to understand even that?
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:26:35 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Inquisition
Message:
I agree Mili. One would need to ask perhaps, is this forum really only for the converted ex's and the more extreme ones at that? Would that not totally defeat its own purposes and be so narrow as to suffocate any real open debate?
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:52:32 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Inquisition
Message:
Mili,
I think she's still decent - she's just really bothered by something, so she's acting a bit harsh right now.

Elaine

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 18:05:46 (GMT)
From: (Sir) David
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What Mili means but is unable to say
Message:
because English is his second language.

A blind person can't see, a deaf person can't hear but to actually lose the sense of knowing that you're breathing - you would have to be deceased (dead) because then you wouldn't be breathing.

In other words, he's saying that the sense of knowing that you're breathing is available to all people, since all people are alive.

Only a blinkered cult fanatic would suggest that a person who isn't actually concentrating on their breath, is metaphorically dead. And I don't think even Mili is that far gone?

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 07:58:03 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Zombie Lemmings
Message:
Hi SB'
The secret to sharing the forum with raina is to totally ignore her. I had a run in with her when she first arrived and came to the conclusion that she was a waste of space with no appreciation for anything other than disruption. She is nothing more than a shit stirrer. As a consequence I have not opened or read a raina message for weeks now and do you know what? Life is all the better for it.
Cheers:)
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 11:58:17 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Zombies come in all shapes.
Message:
Premie zombies. I knew them. I challenged them at times. Challenged their smug ,egotistic pride, collective phony smiles, sanctioned aura of being 'a chosen one'. Enlightened gait. Knowing look in the eye. Always ready to share a little wisdom with the brothers and sisters. As long as one knew ones place in the pecking order. Ones specific function as a part of a swiss watch. Impeccability. Maharaji said so! Every little thing counts. Propagation depends on this.
True! But careful I say. Ex premies can repeat all these tendencies in another 'format' without realising it. Just as once the ex's were premies who didn't realise it. I heard that the germans easily hated the jews because in many fundamental ways they reminded them of themselves. The same with jews and arabs. Not all ex's have changed that much ,imho.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:27:26 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Keith/all
Subject: my opinion on the raina decision
Message:
I am so sick of hyperbolic Hitler analogies being thrown around so carelessly. Beleive me, people here embraced Raina and bent over backwards to understand her. Nothing remotely Hitler-esque occurred here. Raina accused people of killing her soul, but she resorted to imagery of rape, and brutality on a regular basis. I found it incredibly disturbing and if she hadn't been blocked I, for one, would definitely have stopped postign here. She was sabatoging the forum, IMO.

Actually I was going to suggest we all take a vote on her being here. I vote to block her!

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:34:36 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: my opinion on the raina decision
Message:
A few points in response to your above post Helen.
You didn't have to continue to read Raina's posts. Why did you if they disturbed you so much? Choosing to not read someones posts is a form of blocking that everyone has the right to , in my book.
As for having a vote. yes , I've already canvassed that idea. After appropriate debate. Someone said the problem is who would vote? Well, I think that a vote could take place a week after everyone ig given notice , for example. Like when there's an election and the due processes are put into place. Some hard work involved perhaps but I think it would be worth it.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:56:00 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Problem is organizing it all
Message:
But there is no reason why a thread & a general consensus couldn't be agreed.
That's gotta be better, certainly leaving the responsibility to whatever fa is on duty, without guidelines makes no sense, I wouldn't wanna be the fa who made this decision without agreement, however rough that agreement is, that has got to be better for both sides of the table, fa's, poster and named person.

Also nigel's suggest about limited posting if there's an agreement, and if it's easy to set up, again based on agreements, however general or rough & ready that is, if someone is out of order or seen as proliferate, as raina certainly was in my opinion, has to be better than what happened today.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:41:08 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: The Fallacy of the Middle
Message:
Isn't that what it's called? The fallacy of thinking that if some say 'A' and some say 'Not A' then the truth must be somewhere down the middle? Keith's new thesis is a classic example.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:29:02 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The Fallacy of 'The Fallacy of the Middle'
Message:
I don't think that Keith was saying it must be down the middle. It is often down the middle. Also, this is not a situation where it's all simply either 'A' or 'not A' as you seem to think. You think that if someone doesn't submit to your hard-boiled philosophically materialistic philosophy, then they 'might as well still be in the cult'. Btw, what do you think of the Ayn Rand cult?

I'd like to know where you came up with this 'Fallacy' of yours. There is a Fallacy of the Middle Term, but Fallacy of the Middle?

'The Fallacy of the Middle Term: The use of a hidden fourth term to generate a faulty final term as in: The end of all life is to achieve perfection; death is the end of all life, therefore death is the final perfection. Notice the ambiguity of the word, end, it was used in the first term to mean 'objective;' it was changed in the middle term to mean 'termination.' But you knew that.'

I seem to remember that fallacy in one of your posts.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:19:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Fuck off, G
Message:
I don't know where I got the 'fallacy' from outside my memory. But I'll tell you this, Keith has recently posted several similar posts all to the effect that there are 'extreme' exes (in their rejection of either Maharaji, spirituality or both) just like there are 'extreme' premies. Point being, of course, that the truth must lie somewhere in between. The message is undeniably implicit in context. If you can't see it, look again.

I think Ayn Rand missed the boat in her simplistic read on the subtle ways co-operation affects the equation and how reciprocity in nature contributes to long-term survival strategies. As for her 'cult', such as it exists in a few living rooms in L.A. or Manhattan, who cares? She was a wonderful woman in many respects, hypocritical in others. Whatever.

'The Fallacy of the Middle Term: The use of a hidden fourth term to generate a faulty final term as in: The end of all life is to achieve perfection; death is the end of all life, therefore death is the final perfection. Notice the ambiguity of the word, end, it was used in the first term to mean 'objective;' it was changed in the middle term to mean 'termination.' But you knew that.'

I seem to remember that fallacy in one of your posts.

Find it, post it, prove it.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:41:34 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Binary logic
Message:

Binary Logic (thinking in 'black and white'): The practice of giving only two alternatives to a complex question which might call for an entirely new option as in: Either you are a communist or you are a loyal American.

This is listed as a fallacy of thinking at THE RED FEATHER DICTIONARY of CRITICAL SOCIAL SCIENCE

As for her 'cult', such as it exists in a few living rooms in L.A. or Manhattan, who cares? She was a wonderful woman in many respects, hypocritical in others. Whatever.

Who cares? So it's OK for some cults to exist as long as they are a certain type of cult? Are you apologizing for her cult? Hypocritical indeed. And no, not whatever.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:53:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: G
Subject: You're wrong AGAIN, G
Message:
I love it! You are so wrong here and wrong in just the way I've come to enjoy.

At no time, in no place, in no way did I ever suggest that there were only 'two alternatives' to the 'complex questions' of spirituality or how to view Maharaji. Rather, I criticized Keith for suggesting that there couldn't be only two because, as he implied, the truth must necessarily fall between two 'extreme' positions. So do me a favour and fuck off, will you? Again and again you demonstrate the discrepancy between your own self-image and mental capabilities.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 01:06:58 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The Ayn Rand CULT
Message:
Jim wrote regarding the Ayn Rand CULT:

I think Ayn Rand missed the boat in her simplistic read on the subtle ways co-operation affects the equation and how reciprocity in nature contributes to long-term survival strategies. As for her 'cult', such as it exists in a few living rooms in L.A. or Manhattan, who cares? She was a wonderful woman in many respects, hypocritical in others. Whatever.

G wrote:

Who cares? So it's OK for some cults to exist as long as they are a certain type of cult? Are you apologizing for her cult? Hypocritical indeed. And no, not whatever.

G responds to Jim's non-response:

So, it is OK? Are you apologizing for her cult? Have you been involved with this cult? It's rather strange that you, an avowed anti-cultist, would take such a lukewarm stance about this, even to the point of putting quotes around 'cult'.

I would say that she grossly underestimated the importance of co-operation. You seem to have bought too much into her philosophy of 'One man against the world.' Do you see the world as a jungle and you're 'Jungle Jim'?

Here's a link to a book that is critical of her CULT (at Amazon.com):

The Ayn Rand CULT

.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:21:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Give me a fucking break, G
Message:
I don't for a moment disagree that Rand assumed the role of a cult leader to some people. But really, G, who fucking cares? Small change both in breadth and depth of harm. Did you read the reviews of that book you linked to? It sounds a little over-the-top, don't you think? That's what I'd expect given what I know about Rand. Sure, she was an authoritarian thought control freak. But to what end? What was the harm? Where'd it go and, perhaps more improtantly, where is it today? Really, G, you're pulling at straws with this one. Why not just get back to something familiar like bitching about philosophical materialism?
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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 00:32:32 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Binary logic
Message:
G previously wrote:
Binary Logic (thinking in 'black and white'): The practice of giving only two alternatives to a complex question which might call for an entirely new option as in: Either you are a communist or you are a loyal American.

This is listed as a fallacy of thinking at THE RED FEATHER DICTIONARY of CRITICAL SOCIAL SCIENCE

G reponds to Jim's response:

I love it! You are so wrong here and wrong in just the way I've come to enjoy.

This is the kind of smug, egotistic pride that Keith was mentioning. Simply stating that someone is 'wrong' means nothing. Responding in this way shows immaturity and insecurity.

At no time, in no place, in no way did I ever suggest that there were only 'two alternatives' to the 'complex questions' of spirituality or how to view Maharaji.

Wasn't it you who said that if an ex-premie doesn't reject spirituality completely 'What's the point?' ? And why the quotes?

Rather, I criticized Keith for suggesting that there couldn't be only two...

Oh, so you DO think there can be only two, and you're getting on his case for challenging your viewpoint. There's your binary logic.

...because, as he implied, the truth must necessarily fall between two 'extreme' positions.

That is not what he said.

So do me a favour and fuck off, will you?

No.

Again and again you demonstrate the discrepancy between your own self-image and mental capabilities.

Another insult, not impressive. Why don't you just call me an idiot? That's what you've done many times to others. Why do you do this? Is it to prop up your self-esteem? Do you feel like you have to put other people down to feel better about yourself? There are better ways.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:48:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Okay, G, read this very, very slowly
Message:
This is very simple. Now I'm not a scientist so I don't really understand why you'd think that I don't know how to think straight. But anyway.....

Keith IMPLIED -- he didn't say it outright, but I say he certainly implied -- that there are 'extremist' exes, just like there are 'extremist' premies and that, as in similar situations, the truth must be somewhere in between their relative viewpoints. Now, again, he didn't spell it all out. It's what I inferred from his posts. If you want we can argue about that inference. I stand by it in any event.

You then complained that I was urging an either-or, all-or-nothing perspective. Right?

Okay, here's the hard part for you, I guess. I'm not saying that there necessarily IS one or the other. I'm saying that it's not the case that there necessarily ISN'T. Do you follow me? Because it's really very simple. Think about it.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:34:11 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The truth of the Middle
Message:
some say
'A' and some say 'Not A' then the truth must be somewhere down
the middle? Keith's new thesis is a classic example.

Exactly. That's it ! Somewhere in between the extremes there is more truth to be found than at the extremes. Guatama ,bless his soul, also gave a classic example, after experiencing both extremes.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:25:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: That's not what I'm talking about, you idiot
Message:
Listen, stupid, I'm not talking about Bhudda's advice to take things in moderation. I'm talking about yet another logical fallacy you commit. I don't expect you to get it because you're so thick trying to talk to you is pointless. I was just making the observation for anyone else interested and yes, Keith, it's true. There really is such a fallacy and you really do fall for it again and again.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:12:23 (GMT)
From: keith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: you idiot
Message:
Salutations to you all knowing one!!! jim , you haven't changed or learnt a bit. And you say it's pointless talking to me. Oh boy! Sir Stuck in the Mud! You wouldn't know a bit of moderation if it bit you on the backside.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 13:18:34 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Abusers and abuse also comme in all shapes here!
Message:
Lots of ex-premies were definitely sitting ducks for abusers (including myself to some extent) IMO.

Lots of exes are still into desintricating themselves from those abuse patterns obviously ...

And this forum is a good mirror for this phenomenon. I guess we'll all learn a lot if we're a bit more critical over our own attitude here.

It's very painful for me watching all these fights.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:41:26 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Abusers and abuse also comme in all shapes here!
Message:
Jean Michel, it is so true what you say above. Namely, that we'll all learn a lot if we're a bit more critical of our own attitude here. To not be so leads to a smug and rigid self righteousness , imo. Your pain in watching the fights that occur here. It's not pretty at times. But I feel it a part of the journey . We are seeking to own and express our own truths in an enviroment of freedom of speech. The best aspect of this forum, for me , is the freedom it gives to everyone to express freely. Take that away and it will die a slow death , imo.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:14:08 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: For God's Sake, She's Gone!!!
Message:
Let's all eat drink and be merry and stop kidding ourselves that she was here for any other reason other than to be desruptive. Thank you FA for doing something long overdue. (IMHO)
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:02:27 (GMT)
From: helen
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Amen, brother (nt)
Message:
hdjhdlal
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 03:14:10 (GMT)
From: des
Email: desi1970@excite.com
To: Everyone
Subject: advice
Message:
hi everyone, i am seeking some advice.
my new girlfriend is an aspirant and is close to recieving knowledge. is there anything that i should be worried about and can anyone give me some advice about this organisation and what it is all about??? there is something about it all that makes me feel uncomfortable and worried. are my concerns valid???
any advice would be appreciated
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 12:06:30 (GMT)
From: A.P.
Email: None
To: des
Subject: advice
Message:
I sort of went through what you are going through.
Perhaps if you agree to watch a video with her, she can agree to reading some of the information you have acquired.
The premies here say give it a fair chance because that is Maharaji's rule. (One of them anyway)
But shouldn't your girlfriend also give your point of view a fair chance? All the information you will need is here in this website. It's important for you to point out M's history to her. How Elan Vital was once Divine Light Mission in the 70's and how things were conducted back then. Most aspirants don't have any access to that information. It's all pretty creepy for aspirants to hear about premies lining up and kissing the feet of the lord. There are pictures of it around the site somewhere. There is also a section that gives you some of the responses you will get when you present your girlfriend with certain information. It's nice to know what she will respond with before she does it. Be prepared, you may only have a short period of time. Give the video the same amount of time as what you have to say. It's probably best if she brings a video home. It might not get you anywhere in the beginning but be persistant if you really think M and K are a bad deal.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 18:01:42 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: des
Subject: advice
Message:
Des,first apreciate the fact that this is an anti-Maharaji site.The advice you will gethere is almost completely one sided.There is another side.
If you really want to find out about this I'm afraid your gonna have to check it out yourself,and that's gonna take more than firing off a question to a one-sided audience.Listen for yourself to what Maharaji is really saying,and allow for the possibility that people here may have misunderstood something,just maybe,and I say that as humbly as I can meaning no disrespect for the peorlpe here.Talk to your girlfriend to find out why Maharaji's message is important to her,even if it may not be for you.Interact with people who already find value in it as well as the people who are against it.Yes ask the questions about cults and find out if this is as scary as the folks here make it out to be.Find out how money is dealt with and what the expectations are.You'll find out that while Maharaji's privacy is protected to a degree,the information about the organization is not hidden.Most of all in your investigation have an open mind and trust your heart,especially since it involves someone you seem to care about.
Can I ask why you came to an anti-Maharji site to get information about him?were you looking for people to support your existing aprehensions?
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:05:10 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: O
Subject: advice
Message:
'Can I ask why you came to an anti-Maharji site to get information about him?were you looking for people to support your existing aprehensions? '

He probably put 'maharai' in his search engine and found out that this was the only site where he could discuss the issue. In case you don't know there are no pro-m sites where discussions are allowed.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 21:01:29 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Des this post above is a CLASSIC example of why
Message:
you should be VERY careful.

Did you notice how civil the whole post was, but note a few KEY comments. The last line was to check where you are as possible bait in the cult feeder machine so that O can stay one step ahead of you in responding, and still superficially appear spontaneous.
Note the use of open mind & heart, he means NO thinking will help, even though of course your cognitive processes are still functioning, that way cult key words and ideas can be slipped in without you noticing. Also please note the comment, 'what maharaji is really saying'. The comment about the org is a complete and total fabrication, if you knew how hard it is to probe the finances of the org, but more especially maha's finances you'd be amazed. Again, superficially, he/she will say it is completely free and does not cost a penny, and on the surface this is completely true,well until recently, but but but...Again read the background info. The money he has got through over the years and the life style he has led is unbelievable. You will not be able to even remotely comprehend the luxury he lives in and the money he has squandered, he has a special fondness for electronic gadgets from yachts to cars to planes to helicopters to living on the coast at malibu, to his palatial, and I mean PALATIAL mansion (incidentally completely rebuilt at horrendous cost), again all the info is here on the site.
As for maharaji caring about people, well that is the BIGGEST joke of all, and I mean the BIGGEST of all.
If there is anyone more self-centred, arrogant, and uncaringin any spiritual community anywhere I would be astonished. When followers come here and have this question posed to them, when has he ever shown any 'care' for anyone ever, the silence is truly deafening, one ex did come up with one incident that contradicts this once, which no premie has ever done, but it was so small as to be embarrassing. If only he did care about people even remotely, at least half of the anger on this site would never exist. Certainly for myself the anger is very related to this specific point. A large % of us came to gm as he then was, because we cared enormously about people and this planet, and were sucked in on that premise, thus the anger when we realized how totally uncaring he was, and how he used that.
Without going into details, they are on the site too, if you meet any follower, just ask about DUO. Enough said on that one.

For one, I would put good money on O being a cart-blanche follower, and if I'm wrong O is seriously fucked.
One of the cleverest tricks that gm has up his sleeve, and he doesn't have many, is that he says he is against all cults & religions, and on the surface, if you are a lazy thinker, he is.

BUT BUT BUT

(1) the meditation techniques are bog standard, and can be taught in 10 minutes. If they work, and they don't, even with all the mind programming, for a lot of people, they work BECAUSE of the individual. I say this as someone who they did & do work for, big time, but who took WAY too long to realize HE is completely irrelevant. If my memory serves me well the techniques are on this site. Anything else is based upon nothing but personal projection and/or group identity. 'Knowledge' is spun as unique to maharaji, that is a complete and total 100% lie, the techniques were originally taken from other hindu/raj yoga cults in northern india. Read beyond the forum on this site for the background details. If confronted by this, and most followers don't have a clue this is the case, they will attempt to persuade you, VERY gently and subtly, and without being explicit, that the 'knowledge' is more than the techniques, maha sees himself still, as the only person on this planet with this ability. He styled himself as THE perfect master for a LONG time, they will deny this or say things are different now. This again is a complete and total lie. Read any of his speeches in India over the last 10 years and he is saying exactly the same things.
The followers, until you have been sucked in, will deny this completely. Again read all the background materials. If you do go to a video, and you are quite good at decoding body language & language use, WATCH the followers reactions to the video's like a HAWK. If you are genuinely an open and nice person you will be shocked by the signals you pick up, if more cynical you will be busting a gut with laughter.

(2) I guarantee you, GUARANTEE, that you will be inveigled to going to a video to see him at some point, be VERY careful, if you ever do go, stay detached and REALLY watch for the repetition of keywords, one of his primary ways of creeping into peoples thoughts.
Your girlfriend at some point will say this very innocently whether she is aware of the entrapment techniques used or not, most followers are VERY naive about brainwashing and don't have a clue how programmed they are.
Your girlfriend sounds very nice, maybe even sweet, he feeds off people like this like a piranha fish.
If your girlfriend is taking what the followers say straight, she
is already well down the path, and receiving a subtle form of love bombing from the people she's meeting.

I could go on and on, in detail, breaking down how the programming works, but this might be more than enough for you.

One last thought, if something strong is happening between you, and you're prepared to go the extra mile for her, and you'd like to help her break free but don't want to jeopardise your relationship, almost for certain you will if you are evn remotely aggressive, there are subtle ways to feed an alternative position to her brain. Research the background materials on this site thoroughly, including previous discussions on this site which are in zip form, and ask innocent questions. Most premies have NO access to any of the information, newcomers won't have a clue.
They will say it is irrelevant, whatever you bring up, until they suspect you are not likely to be possible bait as a future cult member, then you will find them disappearing into a knowing holier than thou fog. Once you are no use to them they have NO shame in making complete fools of themselves as human beings.
The sense of smug superiority that will radiate from them at this time is something else to see.

He originally proclaimed he was greater than god. If you want to have a laugh or really expose their position, ask to see the Lord of the Universe video, you really would not believe it nor there reaction to the question.

To wind up, I've included my e-mail address if you want to follow this up in a more private environment.

If I've been too verbose, or patronising, apologies, as you may have gathered this is just a tad important to me.

The reason why I have responded so lengthily to your question is because both you and your girlfriend seem genuinely nice & open, the people he feeds off most voraciously, the thought of anyone getting sucked into this stuff frightens the life out of me, and precisely because in so many areas maharaji knows cults inside out and uses that info and certain structures to completely try and cover his tracks. For over ten years he was pretty successful at it, but is starting to get a l;ittle desperate, this generation are a lot wiser than we were and stay well clear.

And if you are also questioning my position and wonder why I am so angry, well 'knowledge' worked too well for me, at a level I haven't even begun to ever say here, so my anger with him is because it became completely obvious to me, over nearly two decades that he had absolutely no desire to spread this knowledge at all, and that devastated me.
For most people here it didn't work at all, just the programming, and they are angry because of that.
In even writing this last paragraph I'm exposing myself to flack here but for some reason there is something about your enquiries that demand I be as honest as possible with you, and the timing in tewrms of my articulation at the moment is 'perfect'. (Sorry a little 'cult' joke there, which would take too long to fully explain.)

I wish you all the luck in the world with this woman and the process you are embarking on, IF you care deeply about each other, you will need it.
If you don't, no sweat, I would suggest ditching her INSTANTLY, especially if you are a sensitive, nice person, or have experienced abuse in your past, or are demoralized by the crazyness of this world.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:10:28 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: hamzen,clarify?
Message:
well k worked too well for me, at a level I haven't even begun to even say here,...it became completely obvious to me,over nearly 2 decades, that he had absolutely no desire to spread this k at all...

Could you expound a bit more. Were you close to him - a pam ?

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:14:39 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: hamzen,clarify?
Message:
Not at all, that's why it worked so well for me, and the conditions I felt enhanced it, were all the conditions that were sabotaged by him over the years, and all the conditions that obviously got squeezed the nearer and nearer you got to being a pam

I gave him a huge amount of slack from the lila angle, but when it became obvious not only that he was making it increasingly difficult for it to work, but that he had absolutely NO desire
to spread the message as wide as possible, well......

Now the lila thing was impossible to prove or disprove, so I walked not knowing if it was definitely his fraudulence or lila
I decided that even if he was greater than god I did not want to be a party to some elite club

bodhisattva mentality me
which of course is the spiritual equivalent of democracy

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:50:27 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: hamzen,clarify?
Message:
So I bring up alot of stuff to this aspirant contact friend of mine today -and she says M is really spreading this k. I say where - how?

'All over the WORLD.'
I say, 'so your friends took 2-3 yrs to rec Kn in LA and 120 people are there --- from all over San Fransisco - Seattle - Denver- San Diego all the Western people ---and there are 120 people.
Does that seem like M is spreading this Kn.?'
Well, he's got to have a support system...

Ham - gotta go will be back to finish - sorry......

Elaine

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:30:24 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Ham
Subject: hamzen,clarify? story con't...
Message:
I say - He's got a support system.

I say what if he had an interview on TV where he tells the public about this K.

She says - M has always said the media is not going to spread his K.

I say - No media - just a 4' ad saying whatever it is he's saying now. He'll be giving a talk at the Auditiorium on the first of every month in this city.

Well, he needs money and support.

I say - They'll be plenty of money when he says he is talking in person in our city the first of the month and say in NYC the 3rd week of every month and so on. All culminating in a big Civic Ctr. screen Kn session in six months.

I say - this is just a wild example of something he could be doing if he really wanted to 'spread the K'.

It got her thinking. She said we can't second guess M. I said Why not? If this K is so great why isn't M doing something 'better' spreading it. She said - Why aren't you?

I said - I'm not the Master or teacher.

Anyway, what is M doing anyway? Working on sound techniques in his recording studio?

You get my point - your statement of seeing that he doesn't spread this kn - rang true for me.

Elaine

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:50:59 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Absolutely
Message:
Same for all the organizational structures,
deliberately structured so that few people will ever hear
same as for the experience, all the things that would have increased the possibilities he squashed etc

in every area he is nothing but a control freak in a small dominion

and re the media

the media don't spread messages, the media gets used
with the money he's spent on himself he could have set up his own newspaper, tv station....

but no he wants to play in his studio producing sub-standard new-age muzak that has snooze factor, no style, written all over it

there is so much he could have done if he was serious about his message, but just look at the history of dlm & elan vital
oooh, thrusting dynamic creative organizations in the pursuit of excellence or what.....!

tm's a classic example
or hubbard's crowd

according to gm they are a complete waste of time in terms of their package they have to offer, yet there they are still able to sell their sub-standard package to audience levels he could only dream about, if that ain't a discrepancy that any 15 year old business studies entrepreneur could see through, well, what more can be said,

the guy is completely and totally & utterly useless

if the lord of the universe can't sell the greatest package of all time to anyone but a few old hippies and some hindus, weeell

do premies still buy into the lila concept to explain it all away?
unreal

he reminds me of some small town furniture shop owner baffled by the changing times desperately trying to be hip because his sales are plummeting but always ten years behind in his image with no idea about how to package

just so, so

amateurish, all a bit sad really

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 15:54:48 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Absolutely
Message:
I'll be using that 15-yr old business entrepeneur line and also will refer to the Scientologists and also the est group. They certainly seem to have repackaged and thus are flourishing.

Someone else made a good point that I forgot while talking to her - that Yes, M is spreading K -to Third World countries mostly. What does that say. (I don't know exactly) It actually does say to me he most not be after money - since they have so little. That is an imp point - I have no explainition for.

Some one else here might add it's bec the imp countries are too smart for him I guess. But, I don't buy that.

If he said - I have this free 'thing' that shows you how to go inside - I'll be speaking about it and showing everyone in a month of preparation - I think ANYONE in the least interested in any form of meditation would go check it out. If it was free - no strings at all - no worship involved. Just here and good-bye.

I don't know - in other words he could be doing alot more than getting rid of the Hindi words and letting Pardarthanand wear Western clothes. IMO.

And it bothers me.

Also, hamzen, thank you for talking with me and not calling me names. I can't figure why others here can't see another ex may be emerging. They mock me up the wazoo. Very Neanderthal-ish. Well,mean-spirited anyway.

Elaine

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 06:07:51 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Absolutely: People're telling you the truth
Message:
Also, hamzen, thank you for talking with me and not calling me names. I can't figure why others here can't see another ex may be emerging. They mock me up the wazoo. Very Neanderthal-ish. Well,mean-spirited anyway.

Accussing people of being brutish and mean-spirited? I think you exagerated there and 'insulted' few around here...don't you think?

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 00:23:55 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Absolutely
Message:
I'll be using that 15-yr old business entrepeneur line and also will refer to the Scientologists and also the est group. They certainly seem to have repackaged and thus are flourishing.
Someone else made a good point that I forgot while talking to her - that Yes, M is spreading K -to Third World countries mostly. What does that say. (I don't know exactly) It actually does say to me he most not be after money - since they have so little. That is an imp point - I have no explainition for.
Some one else here might add it's bec the imp countries are too smart for him I guess. But, I don't buy that.

He's running a business, he goes & deals with whoever wants to be customers the most. The numbers in the west, even by EV's own stats, have been dropping sharper than usual in the west during the last 5 years, and if you speak to the number of young people that I do it would be obvious why. They, collectively, don't trust any org, but especially spiritual org's thast play mind-games. In general as a generation, they have much more self-worth than we had.

If he said - I have this free 'thing' that shows you how to go inside - I'll be speaking about it and showing everyone in a month of preparation - I think ANYONE in the least interested in any form of meditation would go check it out. If it was free - no strings at all - no worship involved. Just here and good-bye.
I don't know - in other words he could be doing alot more than getting rid of the Hindi words and letting Pardarthanand wear Western clothes. IMO.

But to people I know, again who are young, that is true of all reiki/yoga/whatever groups, and they still avoid like the plague, or circumnavigate very carefully. Have you seen any of the satsangs he gave during the nineties in India? You could swap from the seventies, right back to guru is greater than god territotry, sometimes, very soon after he's back in the west he again becomes just a teacher, how very convenient. If the argument goes that he's just pitching to his audience, in which case he's admitting that what he says about himself is completely unreliable, beause if he does say different things in different places, quotes that directly contradict each other, how would one know what words of his are the true pic, because those two stances have vastly differing meanings.
And it bothers me.

It blooming well ought to, but not for the reasons you describe.

Also, hamzen, thank you for talking with me and not calling me names. I can't figure why others here can't see another ex may be emerging. They mock me up the wazoo. Very Neanderthal-ish. Well,mean-spirited anyway.

Because we've had so many here, faking & pretending, and then after being squeezed we see their true beliefs leaking, etc etc...
Sorry, you're part of a historical situation Elaine, there's no avoiding that, but I've also seen posts of yours that weren't nice.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 01:14:47 (GMT)
From: Elaine B.
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Absolutely
Message:
I've also seen posts of yours that weren't nice.

Yeah, tell me about it,like I don't know? - I told Jerry yesterday he was full of shit! ( Re: to him being nice to me when he likes what I post - but, try being nice to me when you don't.)

Yeah,spiraling down here and not meditating besides in the past week and look what I'm reverting to.

But, in my defense - I'm talking about really mean-spirited,unwarranted attacking. You can tell me 'You're full of it' and it just doesn't have the same meanness as some other off the wall attacks at me. It just doesn't.

I feel I'm getting alot of babyish,acting out.

Stonor won't even tell me what apparently I said that 'hurt' her.
Even after I grovel for resolution...she's plays the 'honeymoon
slam the door pout game'
'If you don't know I'm not going to tell you. Game'

So my point is - after awhile I want to 'not be so nice.' But, it takes alot of provoking - I must say. ( Altho, less and less.)

But still, thank you as I talk about things.

I'm not saying I'm not happy I got the techs in the 70's -
but, the need for a guru,per se, is questionable.I do feel the 'need' for me to meditate is obviously still there. I have beautiful experiences and I do enjoy them. :)
And I certainly get crabby when I don't. Which anyone here could attest to in the past wk.

Anyway, see ya,hamzen
Elaine

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:23:43 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Des this is a CLASSIC example of
Message:
..someone giving you the hard sell.Des, my advice to you was simlpy to look at both sides and find out for yourself,but to stay open.Hamzen on the other hand has gone to great labors to make you see the picture through his eyes.
Yes I have tried to influence you I admit but I have tried to influence you on just one thing,to keep an open mind.Hamzen here has tried to influence the outcome of your investigation,to put answers in your head before you even get started.His is afterall just one side of the picture.What is it he has to lose just to let you investigate for yourself?
Again I say check it out for yourself,find your own answers and leave no stone unturned,that is if you care enough to really know.Good luck!
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:39:01 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: O
Subject: The story of O, someone who forgets that I was a
Message:
premie for 20 years & knows all the tricks
and saw through the cult thinking during the following ten years

if you think my angle is just spin
then go through the post and debate the points

but no

he has to see the goober on video, and of course in a goober group setting
also please note that I didn't say he shouldn't go, and neither did I say he shouldn't be open to the message, just take simple precautions on his first visits and tyhen be open,
that way tyhe openess isn't a precursor to programming
and as I said, what premies mean by openness is the exact opposite of what most people mean by it
but then we all know the little mind games around language
in that culture

by the way I've got nothing to lose if des gets caught up, its des that has something to lose

have the guts
just for once be the one premie who has got the courage to debate

I notice you don't query a SINGLE point I made

now since I know you won't engage with mind, so no discussion
OPEN discussion, something not a single squirming premie has ever been able to do here

So tell us is the goober god or not, perfect master or not, just another meditation teacher, no different to any other or what

is there a magic invisible cloud at the knowledge session or is it just a set of techniques that if you're one of the lucky ones it works for, works because the timing and your attitude is right

why any need for goober?

It would be great if you were the exception that proves the rule, but I doubt it

you up for it??

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:08:56 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: No I haven't forgotten,and so am I
Message:
Doesn't mean either of us knows what we're talking about.So I'm going to leave it up to the discression of Des to decide for himself untainted by my opinions.And I'll advise him once again to keep an open mind.How 'bout you.You gonna do all the processing for him?You know my friend it takes work to really,really know something,anything ,and eating someone's predigested experience,anybody's predigested experience of 10,20,or 50 years,doesn't give you their knowledge.
So you made your points.There's other sides to the story that he needs to hear to get the full picture.
Are you arguing so desperately that he shouldn't keep an open mind???
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:37:28 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Err O, in case you forgot, Des ASKED a question!!!
Message:
This site isn't just about des, and remember HE came here asking questions of us, we didn't seek him out.

So you ARE the bog standard premie doing the usual hit & run tactic

So forgetting des, are you prepared to discuss anything on the topic,

or are you just the goobers usual brainless runner who will now disappear and hide in the bushes?

OK, just 2 questions?

In your opinion is it possible to have this 'experience' with any other guru, group, or on your own without any authority figures guiding or not?

What has goober ever done to show he CARES about people?

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:56:39 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Err O, in case you forgot, Des ASKED a question!!!
Message:
Yes ,and you seem to adamately object to my advice to keep an open mind.So answer the question I asked you,are you against Des keeping an open mind in his examination of K.

You said>>>'In your opinion is it possible to have this experience' with any other guru, group, or on your own without any authority figures guiding or not?'
Me>>>A teacher is needed.One who can guide you through the subtleties of human existence.Give him the authority to teach or walk away from it and learn something else like basket weaving or computer programming.

You said>>>>'What has goober ever done to show he CARES about people?'
Me>>He gives Knowledge and commits to helping people appreciate its value.To know the self is the greatest thing that could ever be accomplished in a lifetime.In that respect he is unlocking for people who want it the greatst treasure possible.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 17:22:12 (GMT)
From: ex mug
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Err O, in case you forgot, Des ASKED a question!!!
Message:
Hi O,

You said,

Me>>>A teacher is needed.One who can guide you through the subtleties of human existence.Give him the authority to teach or walk away from it and learn something else like basket weaving or computer programming.>

I learned the techniques of 'knowledge' from an Indian guy
called Mahatma Gyanyoganand ji in 1973, and on reflection have
to say that maharaji, in my experience, has very little subtlety
as a human being. Gyanyoganand has more subtlety in his little
finger than m has in his whole body ;). My take on the situation.
As far as I'm concerned, the techniques were shown to me by
Gyanyoganand, not by m.
Personally, I think maharaji sucks big time, and I certainly
gave it a go, so to speak, having lived for 7 years in his
ashram. I strongly question his own credentials as a 'caring' human being, let alone his authority and ability to guide another person through the subtleties of human existance.
This is my view of the situation.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:09:14 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Mind if I pop in for a sec?
Message:
O said:

question I asked you,are you against Des keeping an open mind in his examination of K.

In my mind, it's akin to saying 'are you against Des keeping an open mind about shooting heroin?'

And I'd have to reply 'yes, I am.'

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 00:27:54 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Succintly put gerry (nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 06:49:09 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Now we see the premie cult mindset in all its glor
Message:
Yes ,and you seem to adamately object to my advice to keep an open mind.So answer the question I asked you,are you against Des keeping an open mind in his examination of K.

What des does or doesn't do is up to him, he wasn't asking me if he should go for k, but what is the background to the cult, since there seemed something fishy about it all, I'm not here to sell k, why should I encourage him to put his mental health at risk, really I think you must be a bit dense, I trust that des can read, HE came to an EX premie site, if he wants info on the joys of knowledge he should join the forum on the goobers site, are you a bit dense or something?

but from my own experience no guru is needed, if we're capable of recognizing something valuable in the guru in the first place when we have no knowledge, surely when we have the greatest gift of all IT will teach us all we ever need when added to our desire, so why get stuck in a bad loop, you do know where shri hans nicked the techniques from don't you, that the lineage thing is complete lies??? Maybe you don't?

You said>>>'In your opinion is it possible to have this experience' with any other guru, group, or on your own without any authority figures guiding or not?'

Me>>>A teacher is needed.One who can guide you through the subtleties of human existence.

And of course you didn't learn that stock premie phrase from thew goober right, so what wonderful subleties has he taught you??
About the best you can say for goober, in his good moments, is that he knows some kindergarten zen, but really get real, is the guru the only one you've known that you are so naive?

Personally I like teachers who are interested in dialogue, but if you need to be told how to live, like a kid, that's your choice.

Give him the authority to teach or walk away from it and learn something else like basket weaving or computer programming.

Now the cracks are showing, and I'll ignore another stock phrase from the tiny book of quotes from big boy that it's ok as a premie to quote,
no the big thing here is that he is the ONLY spiritual teacher there is, and if it doesn't work for you, give up spirituality and rejoin the world, god I'd forgotten how small minded , naive,
and uninformed the premie mindset truly is.

You said>>>>'What has goober ever done to show he CARES about people?'
Me>>He gives Knowledge and commits to helping people appreciate its value.To know the self is the greatest thing that could ever be accomplished in a lifetime.In that respect he is unlocking for people who want it the greatst treasure possible.

Err, again you do know the techniques are bog standard raj yoga techniques that shri hans knicked from the radha/sant mat groups??
So why are the numbers getting smaller & smaller by the year if he's got something so magical, or are you one of those religious followers who thinks only THEIR route is the truth, and that only the select, the elite are able to recognize it, don't you ever worry that you are so spiritually arrogant that you're in danger of disappearing up your own arse??
So what great truths about the self have you learnt, that I couldn't possibly have got, else why would I have walked??

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 20:29:17 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: O, des et al.
Subject: Know when you've been Tang O'd
Message:
O says:

'You'll find out that while Maharaji's privacy is protected to a degree,the information about the organization is not hidden.'

Why the book-burning of the late 70s then? (or was it early 80s?)

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:10:37 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: des
Subject: advice
Message:
Hi Des,

May I suggest you show your girlfriend the reply written by VP, a bit lower down this page, entitled 'Unanswered letter to Instructor'. She wrote it to Daneanne whom she (wrongly) assumed might still be an aspirant. It contains just about all the questions your girlfriend should be asking herself, and Daneanne's letter to the instructor, just above it, contains all the questions she should be asking EV.

(It would be a shame to see these great posts go wasted!)

I doubt whether you, or anyone, could get your girlfriend to change her mind if she's already hooked on the bait. She would have to make the decision herself, but giving her this stuff to mull over might help influence that.

Good luck,
Nigel

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 20:38:09 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Oops..
Message:
Sorry Veep, mixing you up with Daneanne and des's girlfriend I referred to you as 'she'. Sorry Sir! Now Daneanne, I'm pretty sure is a woman... I hope. I'll log off now. :)
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 11:44:02 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: des
Subject: advice
Message:
Hi des, I am not a premie, follower of Maharaji. Like most here I'm an ex. But I do want to say there are more moderate responses to your question than the other posters have expressed. My for instance. Sure there are dangers for your girlfriend. But that partly depends on who she is. She may not become a typical 'devotee'. Not every person who receives 'knowledge'(meditation) and benifits from that, becomes a one eyed devotee. Especially these days. It is a cult. But cults can have positive as well as negative influences. As far as cults go this one doesn't have the worst features of many others. Not in my experience. Not in the time phase of my involvement. Never the less, there are problems potentially with your girlfriend being involved and you not. Why don't you go to a few video events yourself. And keep reading this forum too. And make up your own mind. I was involved for 16 years and no great harm came to me although some here would say that a post like this is proof to the contrary. I'm not trying to suggest you get involved with Maharaji too. I'm saying 'find out'. Trust your own judgements rather than everyone elses. I'm not trying to confuse you but there are more angles to something this complex than some here will give credit too. Listen to what your girlfriend has to say. Don't be extreme. Walk a middle path. Take your time. Had to say this. Good luck.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:15:03 (GMT)
From: JtF
Email: None
To: des
Subject: advice/Questions she should ask cult recruiter
Message:
THINKING ABOUT JOINING A GROUP?
If you are attracted to a group, it is only reasonable to want to know as much as you can about what you might be joining. People who recruit for trustworthy groups should not mind answering a few questions.

Pose your questions in a direct and friendly manner. Be alert for vague responses such as 'all your questions will be answered in time.' Trust your feelings: if something doesn't feel right, step back and look more critically at the group (it may not be a cult; it just may not be for you).

Here are some sample questions you may want to ask:

How long have you (the recruiter or member) been involved?
Is this an 'organization' you want me to join? Does it have any other names besides the one you've told me?
What is expected of me once I join? Do I have to quit school or work? Donate money or property? How do you expect me to treat friends and family who do not agree or question my becoming a member?
Do people criticize your group? What do they say?
How does your group treat ex-members? Are you allowed to talk with them? Have you ever spoken with any ex-members?
What are the things you like least about your group?
When speaking with the recruiter or another member, try to determine if they are answering your questions honestly. A recruiter for a cult may very well be giving you 'whatever they want to hear.'

If after speaking with someone from the group, you are still not sure, do some research on your own or call Info-Cult and use our services. Think about what you've heard and consider our guidelines: What is a Cult?

Do not give your full name, address or phone number until you are sure about the group.

Info-Cult
Resource Centre on Cultic Thinking
5655 avenue du Parc, Suite 208
Montreal, Quebec, Canada H2V 4H2
(514) 274-2333, Fax: (514) 274-7576

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:04:45 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: JtF
Subject: I AM NOT POSTING AS 'JtF' (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 18:31:06 (GMT)
From: JtF
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: I AM NOT POSTING AS Joey (nt)
Message:
asdf
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 18:37:00 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: JtF
Subject: and I am not posting as Fifi la Douche. Why? (nt)
Message:
and I am not posting as Fifi la Douche. Why? (nt)

Sorry guys. You know how it is - sunny summer evening, pint of the good stuff (OK, Elaine, bad stuff) and thou ...

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 07:11:29 (GMT)
From: Mike Fronke
Email: None
To: des
Subject: advice
Message:
Maharaji's father, Shri Hans Ji Maharaj, said it quite beautifully back in the early 60's. He said, 'It must be clearly understood that only He who can bestow God-vision instantaneously within oneself is the true Master of the time, and no one else.' Quoted from 'Who Is Guru Maharaji?', November 1974, page 284. So I would ask her after she receives Knowledge whether or not she experienced God. I know I did!
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 14:42:42 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Mike Fronke
Subject: Mike,huh?
Message:
You did?
Well, I certainly envy you if that's the truth.

That all said then - LSD was the 'Master of the Time' for me then, according to Shri Hans' quote. I dropped acid three days before I drove up to Atlanta in '73(to rec Kn).I saw God alright - not instantaneously - took awhile like an hour or two. So, maybe he WAS right.Wasn't instantaneous.OK - LSD wasn't the 'Master'.

But, then according to Shri Hans - neither was his son. It wasn't instantaneous - for me anyway. I'm not saying I didn't experience anything afterwards...but,what is this instantaneous stuff.
Am I doubting Shri Hans' statement - yes.

I can also tell you - two people that rec Kn in LA in the last 2 weeks weren't bestowed any God-vision, and they prepared for THREE YEARS. Think their sincerity was enough???

You new here? I'm a premie. And it's this kind of talk that is embarrassing to me.

Not trying to be hostile - just direct. Stick around awhile - don't be scared off...

Elaine B.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 16:30:42 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: You've got to be kidding
Message:
I'm a premie. And it's this kind of talk that is embarrassing to me.

You're crazy. This is a quote of Maharaji's father and you're embarassed by it? Do you think Maharaji is embarassed by the things his father said? Shri Hans was his goddam mentor! And yes, Elaine, that's why we all received Knowledge, because the promise was instant cosmic consciousness. We all went into that Knowledge session, certain that all our hopes and aspirations would be fulfilled instantaneously. None of us were prepared for the letdown it really turned out to be, or the bullshit we had to swallow in the aftermath, that it was just our minds that were in the way of instant bliss. If K is so powerful, you'd think our minds wouldn't stand a chance against it. But look at us, Elaine. Who's enlightened? It's nearly 30 years down the road for some of us, and we're no closer to God realization, now, than we were back then. Heck we don't even talk about God realization anymore, we've all given up on it so long ago, including the pied piper himself, Maharaji, who had us all chasing it.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 08:49:47 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mike Fronke
Subject: Mike forgot something...
Message:
...Mike forgot to mention that she won't be initiated into the cult unless she believes all the '...inner vision' bullshit first. Until you belive it all, you are not considered, 'Ready for Knowledge', so at the moment your girlfriend is being 'prepared' for admission into the cult.

When she's been succesfully marinated, she'll be 'initiated', and after that, she'll be pumped continually for cash, in one way or another.

Fun times ahead.

Anth the deinitiated.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 08:57:24 (GMT)
From: des
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Mike forgot something...
Message:
any suggestions??
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:10:24 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: des
Subject: Mike forgot something...
Message:
Hi des,

I'd talk to her about cults- the Moonies, Hare Krishnas, Scientologists, etc, and ask her what the difference is between Elan Vital and all the other post 60s new age, guru worshipping cults.

I'd encourage her to ask questions, 'Maharaji's website gives the impression he is the latest in a lineage of Perfect Masters. Do premies think this lineage includes Jesus and Buddha? And therefore, do they believe he is something like, 'The Living Perfect Master?'

Or you could try, 'On the Ex-premie website I saw a poster that says, 'God is great but Guru is greater?' Explain please?'

Or...'In 1970 Maharaji said he had come with more power than when he came as Krishna and Jesus, and that he was going to establish 'Peace on Earth' and the 'lion would lay down with the lamb' and there would be no more guns'. What went wrong, and how come Maharaji doesn't like anyone to mention these embarrasing claims'.

Print out some of the stuff on Ex-premie.org and leave it laying around.

If that doesn't work, come in one day with a big smile and say, 'Wonderful news. The Lord is back on the planet. His name is Rev Sung Yung Moon. Let's go and bathe in his glory. Don't forget to bring your cheque book, for 'his work'.'

Good luck

Anth the Ex

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:29:30 (GMT)
From: des
Email: None
To: AJW and JtF
Subject: Mike forgot something...
Message:
hi,
thanx.i apprteciate your advice as i am finding it hard to get answers.
what is the feeling toward non-members, by those inside the group? as my girlfriend is an honest, open person, i'm sure that she has talked with them about my concerns. how would they be responding to this and the questions that i am asking??? would they be turning her against me in some subtle way??
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:57:48 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: des
Subject: Mike forgot something...
Message:
Hi again des,

I'll try and explain the 'premie mentality'.

First, you have to understand that the 'Living Perfect Master' is 'walking around on the planet'. Once it was Jesus, once it was Buddha, and now...todays living Lord is Maharaji.

So, it's necessary to imagine that you have discovered the living Jesus, been to hear him speak (just like the 'Sermon on the Mount' or Buddhas speech in the Deer Park) and you are a disciple of the living Lord.

There then become two types of people in the world, those who know and those who are in ignorance (often described as 'blind' or 'dead', as in Jesus's quote, 'Let the dead bury the dead'.)

Premies get excited when new people come along. 'It's so beautiful to watch a new soul come to his feet, and leave this world of delusion, confusion and illusion'. So your girlfriend is getting lots of attention from 'loving, knowing' premies.

I don't think that the premies will be turning your girlfriend away from you. They'll probably see you as a potential cult recruit too, and encourage her to bring you along to one of the introductory 'Flowers, waterfalls and waffle' videos, where you're told that the most beautiful thing is within, and only the guru can show it to you.

Does your girlfriend have any awareness of what a cult is?

The cult she's thinking of joining has been in decline for many years. Numbers are down each year, there are less and less video events, and most new people soon sniff, 'cult' and leave. The hardcore are a bunch of balding, sagging old hippies, (of which I was one myself until a couple of years ago).

Their heads are full of the most amazing garbage because they believe that Maharaji is the Creator of the Universe, knows everything, and is making everything happen. They've learned, over the years, to hide this, and present Maharaji as a 'teacher' who teaches 'techniques of inner peace'. They don't come right out and say he is greater than God, and is powering the sun and stars, as well as saving up for a new private jet. He's just a teacher of techniques- until that is you practice the techniques, then you 'realise he is the lord', because, 'by his fruits shall you know him'.

Anth the rotten apple

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 14:53:48 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth that's not exactly how it is anymore...
Message:
I know - I've asked and been told by an aspirant (that then rec - Kn in LA.)It's all changed. You should be giving out more current info.
There are even co-ordinator types that rec Kn in the last couple of years - -they are way not into M being the Lord. It has really changed,Anth.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 07:57:15 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Same as ever it was...
Message:
Hi Elaine,

If you look at Maharaji's website, you'll see that he still considers himself to be the Perfect Master- just like Jesus.

Premies who spend time with him day to day also believe this. He still has people line up to kiss his feet, and he's never, ever said he's not the Perfect Master- Guru Maharaji- Lord of the Universe etc.

All that's changed Elaine, is the flimsy packaging. The name of the game is still the same.

Don't you believe that Maharaji is the Perfect Master then?

Anth the Imperfect

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:16:15 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Hmmm - good question
Message:
Don't you believe M is the Perfect Master then?

I honestly never think about it. It's an Indian,culture thing,no?

I'm not Indian - I don't really know from Perfect Masters. I mean Meher Baba was supposed to be one wasn't he - or one of Five or the Avatar - which I mean what is THAT? Wasn't Ramakrishna thought to be a Perfect Master - wasn't he alive when Shri Hans - the Perfect Master was? Could there have been TWO!!!? I mean Geezus - who can keep it all straight!

I am glad in the '70's I was approached and told that someone was around that could show me how to go inside and that INSIDE was where it was at. I know others here that are exes seem to hate the thought of meditation and anything 'new-agey' - but, sorry - the old sat sang is true for me today ----'everything outside ends',period. I'm after something more than wealth and travel and food and sex. So,because of that statement some people here mock me and call me names,go figure. It really does bewilder me.

I seem to stir up all sorts of anger - this group in general seems like an unhappy lot,not all of course. But, alot of mean people here. If I ever do call myself an ex I think I would use another word so I would never be associated with the meanness of this site.

I think you know from the start - I believe people need to vent and get out the anger they feel - but, I don't feel that's an excuse to be SO mean to anyone that sees something from another angle.

Sorry, your question brought up stuff.

Elaine

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 07:04:23 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: des
Subject: I'd be very worried if I were you
Message:
except that I notice she's a new girlfriend, so maybe you're not too serious yet.

Sounds like she's already in denial, the first response to the programming of the cult, which of course can only happen after originally projecting big time.

Anyone getting involved in this cult already has lots of personal issues they haven't dealt with as well, thats why they are there in the first place.

Be VERY careful

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 08:55:24 (GMT)
From: des
Email: None
To: hamzen and Zelda
Subject: I'd be very worried if I were you
Message:
thanx,and i am
she is at the 'program' at the moment.what type of harm could come to her. is it just a finacial risk??is there brainwashing involved??? i have had no contact with this organisation before but my gut instinct is that it is not quite as perfect as she seems to believe it is and that M is not quite the compassionate, giving, caring soul that she sees him as. she sees him just as a giving person who only wishes to help people. i, however am not so sure!!
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 21:06:50 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: ham@hamzen.fsnet.co.uk
To: des
Subject: Des, very sensible
Message:
I've answered your question in reasonable detail under O's post above, 'CLASSIC' example, but forgot to add my e-mail address, so enclosed here now.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:22:32 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: des
Subject: advice
Message:
Hi Des,

Just a few quick words in case it's a while longer before anyone else posts. I think Daneane means 'aye' as in yes, he thinks you should worry. I do.

Have you read much of the information at this site? It's well worth the time. And the personal Journeys are excellent. You might want to read Daneane's, in fact, as he was himself an aspirant until recently.

Here's a link to the site map for a quick overview of the information available here (I'm not sure why, but the link won't go active, so you can cut and paste the url beside it).

Ex-premie.org site map http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/sitemap.htm

I first came to this site in March and found the posts quite confusing at times. There are many premies (like the e-mail friend I had) who are often angry that ex-premies have created this website. They post here quite frequently and tend to 'muddy the waters' a great deal at times. (Now being one of them, IMO)

Stonor

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:46:13 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: advice
Message:
No Stonor, I was referring to the typing style(lowercase and such)...wondering about its similarity to other posts. Guess I was just being jaded and paranoid.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:32:14 (GMT)
From: des
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: advice
Message:
thanx
is there anyhting that you can suggest i do about it? i have shown her this site, but she seems blinded to it all. she insists that she loves me and i wont lose her, however i feel as though she cant really see the dangers that i see. her devotion to this man is quite scary. she beleives that the money has nothing to do with it and he is only doing it to help everyone.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:06:58 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: des
Subject: yeah,des..
Message:
des,
What most are saying is good advice. Tho, I doubt she will read this forum - like someone said - you could leave little print outs around - cut off that it is from this site.

Why not tell her what the techniques are - they are here -did you know?Start doing them yourself in front of her.

Tell her The Self Realization Fellowship is also a nice place to learn techniques - they are basically the same.

She just needs,IMO understand,a way to meditate and go inside - turning off the senses that always go out. She doesn't need to receive this Knowledge,per se.
And remember I'm a premie - and still say she just needs to go inside.
In fact, tell her to buy some ear plugs and listen. Or go the distance and tell her one of the secrets is to stick your thumbs in your ears and listen attentively. No Guru necessary.

Do you know her motivation for wanting to get involved with M or K? Because if it's just peace of mind or something then you can work with that? If she has some father hang-up and needs to look up to a man or something - you'll have to alter your approach, capiche?

Elaine B.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:09:59 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Hey ELaine
Message:
Elaine I think you may need to re-evalute what is a premie.I believe his defnition would imply a respect for his role as teacher.It would also imply a respect for his request not to reveal the techniques to anyone.Watcha think?
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:46:55 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Hey ELaine
Message:
O,
Well, I know.

But, you have to admit since there is a site where anyone can find out the techniques - even my best friend found them all on her own -- they're not exactly sacred secrets anymore.

Last Monday - I was having lunch and a cocktail with a friend on a sidewalk cafe and she wanted to know the techs - she couldn't BELIEVE I wouldn't tell her ---I said it's a matter of honor - I promised. You want 'em - you go find 'em. She respected that and still today hasn't looked them up.

The fact that I said stick your thumbs in your ears - I used to stick my fingers in my ears all the time way before I heard about M, even-- to listen to the 'sounds' that I knew were eternally there.

That was no secret technique to me.

His secret techniques are no longer secret, sorry.

And I've never made it a secret here on this Forum that I think M is not the best teacher.
I thank him and all for showing me how to meditate.
I'm trying to not second guess him on his methods...but saying things are his lila just doesn't exactly cut it all the time.

I certainly don't blame him for people committing suicide, I never felt pressure to give any money at all, I don't understand his backing down from calling himself the LOTU (oh,right he never exactly said that himself, did he?)either he is or he isn't.

I don't respect his handling of the child molestation by Jagdeo - tho I understand how any 'boss' could want to protect a loyal servant like Jagdeo.Doesn't condone it.

I also don't respect his lack of accessability. Never understood that. But hey - you know ----what do I know of his plan?
Whatever he does must be good for me,right? It's all a lila for my growth,right? OK I can buy that to some extent - - Stonor's for my growth,too. (Don't make me get into it.)

I am not the best premie,O.
Sorry.
But, I'm still not an ex.

I am open to discussion with you.

Elaine

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:01:14 (GMT)
From: Han
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Hey ELaine
Message:
Elaine,
Didn't you tell me,, in so many words, that if
you hang your heart out ,,,, Don't be surprised if,,,

I'm going to tell you one thing Elaine, and one thing alone,
and that is, go inside. Go inside to that still place in your own being and bathe in the ocean that opens up to you, and you will find in that place, the unchanging, constant, unwavering,
love of god for your soul. This I Know with all my Heart,,,,
and so do you.
What anyone thinks about anything is merely another changing
thought on a planet spinning through space.
Keep your perspective.
Love and Peace,
Han

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 00:53:39 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Han
Subject: To Han
Message:
Funny ---this place has me so on edge that for the first second I read ' Go inside.' I felt this feeling - of - 'nobody's going to tell me what to do.Grrr.'

Then it went away immediately - bec that really is not my true nature to get defensive or antagonistic first thing.

Wow, this place can get to me.

So,in the very next second - I felt -'Thank you ,Han.' :)

Big smile,
Elaine

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:52:08 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Hey ELaine
Message:
No problem Elaine I jsut think the advice to an aspirant would be to wait until they receive it from him before making a judgement.Then at least they'd have the best start on which to decide.
There's a lot I do not understand either about why he has done what he has done but I trust his judgement.I am not privy to all the information and its a waste of time to piece the picture together with snipits of information filled in with imagination,suspicion and speculation.
He has always shown himself to have principles that he does not compromise and I respect that of him.He is not trying to win a popularity contest and I find that completely refreshing.Seems like many of the exers would have him gather all the premies together and take a vote on most things.He may not have all the answers like someconcept of a Master but I reserve him the right to make the decisions he's had to make,many of which have I'm sure not been easy.
He's said many times he doesn't want to be a leader.My take when I have heard him say that in context has been he's not a world leader in the sense of Clinton,or Blair or the pope.But no matter what he says he is a leader of his students in the way that any teacher is.Nobody,not even he,can convince me he's not and I personally wouldn't have it any other way.
As for money,there's no doubt premies have made sure he lives comfortably.But most of us are more hung up on it than he is.Someone who grows up rich has a different perspective on it as someone growing up withoout.Again,if he was trying to win a popularity contest he'd mask it differently but he isn't,so people get their noses out of joint.Wealth is entirely relative,his standing in the ranking of personal wealth wouldn't even register.Give the Aga Khan a try if you want wealth.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:27:27 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Hey ELaine
Message:
Funny how Elaine touches upon the cornerstones of ex-premie realizations and then tempers them with her own little version of spin doctoring. Elaine the rebel, Elaine the independent thinker, Elaine the crappy premie. Hey maybe it would be ok if I became a premie after all. I mean look at Elaine, she's no cult robot is she? Oooooooh nooooooo, not Elaine:

I certainly don't blame him for people committing suicide, I never felt pressure to give any money at all, I don't understand his backing down from calling himself the LOTU (oh,right he never exactly said that himself, did he?)either he is or he isn't.

Weasel, weasel, weasel.

I don't respect his handling of the child molestation by Jagdeo - tho I understand how any 'boss' could want to protect a loyal servant like Jagdeo.Doesn't condone it.

weasel, weasel, weasel.

I also don't respect his lack of accessability. Never understood that. But hey - you know ----what do I know of his plan?

weasel, weasel, weasel

Whatever he does must be good for me,right? It's all a lila for my growth,right? OK I can buy that to some extent

weasel,weasel,weasel.

Oh Elaine, you're headed straight for the rotten vegetable patch. Even Jesus (perfect master of his time) said be hot or cold, but if ye be lukewarm I shall vomit you out of my mouth.

Yer gonna burn, girl...

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 17:06:13 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Not bad, Elaine
Message:
Why not tell her what the techniques are - they are here -did you know? Start doing them yourself in front of her.

That is a genuinely worthwhile contribution. I thought I might help out:

Click here to learn the techniques for instant God Realization, just like Daddy Maharaji said

You go, girl.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 20:40:10 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Not bad, Elaine
Message:
You are so full of shit.

You're all of a sudden 'nice' to me bec I say something you agree with - try being nice to me when you don't agree with me - that takes real aplomb.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:12:04 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Not bad, Elaine
Message:
Actually, Elaine, I was being somewhat pretentious. I hardly find it in keeping with you to recommend an action that very well might shock someone out of pursuing Knowledge. I think your suggestion was inadvertent on your part. I don't think you realize just how good it actually was. Can you see des' girlfriend's bemusement when she sees des practicing the techniques, say, after she's just returned from another boring aspirant program. It might go something like this:

des' girlfriend: Hi des, watcha doin'?
des: Practicing Knowledge.
des' girlfriend: Pardon?
des: I'm practicing Knowledge. I learned the techniques on the internet while you were at the aspirant program.
des' girlfriend: Get off of it.
des: Seriously. They're pretty neat. Want me to teach you?
des' girlfriend: Yeah, I guess. If it's okay.
des: Sure, it's okay. Have a seat. It's as simple as pie. You might like them.

What do you think, Elaine? How interested do you think des' girlfriend would be in continuing with the aspirant program, or Maharaji and his videos, after she learned the techniques from des? I don't think very. I also think she'd probably lose interest in the techniques in a matter of time, as well. And all because of your suggestion. Good show, girl!

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:13:27 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Not bad, Elaine
Message:
I'm going to burn in hell, aren't I?
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 11:30:48 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Not bad, Elaine
Message:
You may have helped save des' girlfriend from it. So, your reward in heaven will be great. Trust me, I have connections :)
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 14:50:42 (GMT)
From: Phil
Email: None
To: des
Subject: advice
Message:
Hi Des,
I received Knowledge some years ago and continue to enjoy it. I practise Knowledge in the morning before going to work and it gives me a nice 'centred' feeling allowing me to maintain the awareness that life/conciousness is a precious gift, and we only get one shot at it i.e. only one life (possibility of other lives is speculation). Knowledge is subtle but it has allowed me to establish a clear priority in wanting to feel a real quality of life. Maharaji I find to be a good teacher/master with a great sense of humour who constantly reminds me to take advantage of Knowledge, enjoying the feeling inside myself.

I can understand your conflict - your girlfriend's enthusiasm for Knowledge versus the generally negative sentiments expressed on this web site.

Perhaps you should make up your own mind about it from some first hand experience. If you have not been too put off, perhaps you could consider attending a Knowledge video event. If you have been put off, then at least ask your girl friend to borrow a video for you to watch at home.

On the money issue, leave your wallet at home - forever - no one gives a f***!! Personally, I have never felt any pressure for money. Like any organisation there are overheads that need to be met - venue hire, printed materials, A/V productions etc, these being met from voluntary contributions from people who value Knowledge. I also contribute to help cover these costs, a pittence from my fairly comfortable earnings, but I feel it is worthwhile as I derive a lot of enjoyment from Knowledge.

I hope this helps to balance some of the material here.

Kind regards, Phil

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:37:42 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Phil
Subject: advice
Message:
Dear Phil,
You sound like the 'ideal premie'. Used to be just like you, and I certainly didn't realise what a subtle ton of religious thinking I had also taken on board.

I hope you limit your meditation to the minimum and limit your participation to the small amount you indicated, and I hope you never let your sincerity, or your addiction to that 'feeling', impel you to up the stakes. He really doesn't have any more consciousness than anybody else, IMO. LE

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:44:12 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: advice
Message:
Being adicted to joy is a good thing LE.Too bad more people don't have that adiction.Can you imagine a world full of people who don't have any time at all for pain but are constantly seeking out the joy?Blows my mind to think of it!
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:47:45 (GMT)
From: Lotus eater
Email: None
To: O
Subject: addiction to 'joy'
Message:
Dear O,
I too trusted Maharaji's assertion that it is a good thing to be addicted to 'joy' (or 'love', or 'bliss', or 'that feeling'), and accepted my growing dependence on video events, participation, meditation.

It was an interesting moment in my life when I sat in front of Maharaji in a smallish hall, looked him in the eye, and thought: 'this addiction of mine is doing me no good. If I want to save myself, I am going to have to walk away.' At that time I still utterly believed in him, so it was a tough decision to make. I justified it on the grounds that I needed to be strong.LE

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 04:30:19 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Lotus eater
Subject: Interesting post ,ty NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 15:06:12 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Phil
Subject: advice
Message:
Phil, do you think you could get this 'nice centered' feeling without joining this cult?

If anyone wants to experience meditation all they need to do is close their eyes and relax. Who needs to be in a cult to do that?

And don't give me that bullshit about there being no pressure to give money. That, mister centered, is just a big fat lie.

Have you ever soon M dressed in his 'Lord Krishna' outfit? What a joke.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:29:22 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: des
Subject: Des: Run the other way as fast as you can nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 03:49:23 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: des
Subject: do the 'i's' have it?
Message:
eye
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:24:21 (GMT)
From: des
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: do the 'i's' have it?
Message:
sorry, i dont understand?????????
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 06:21:18 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: des
Subject: do the 'i's' have it?
Message:
Des

Maybe you could ask her to wait 4-6 months and to visit this site and read some of the journals and talk to you about it and maybe post here.
You should not worry but watch very carefully. You cannnot do much if she decides to do 'it' and she may feel threatened if you interfere too much.

Definitly try to stall her - the motive in that bieng to prevent her from giving her very cells to the Mirage and hope she comes to her senses.

It is a sick cult and destroys relationships.

Good luck
Zelda

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