Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 00:40:29 (GMT)
From: Jun 21, 2000 To: Jun 28, 2000 Page: 4 Of: 5


Hector -:- My email exchange with an expremie -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 05:32:06 (GMT)
__ O -:- Excellent exchange H -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:53:33 (GMT)
__ __ Hector -:- Excellent exchange H -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 01:23:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Oh my Christ- it's PWK talking to EACH OTHER now!! -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 13:22:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, and here's what's really funny -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 13:57:23 (GMT)
__ Lotus Eater -:- My email exchange with an expremie -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 22:03:18 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Consider this, Hector -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 20:24:52 (GMT)
__ __ Hector -:- Consider this, Hector -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:58:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Consider this, Hector -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:32:21 (GMT)
__ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- My email exchange with an expremie -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 17:13:00 (GMT)
__ Gerry -:- Jeez, Hec I don't recall giving you permission to -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:36:59 (GMT)
__ __ Rob -:- What's this fuckwit's web url Gerry? NT -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 01:37:25 (GMT)
__ __ Said gerry -:- who enjoys reading pedophile pornographic books -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:46:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Well, my favorite scene in Opus Pistorum was -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 17:32:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- And Bjorn, don't blow a load, but the twelve year -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 17:43:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ I think -:- the definition of a liar, Gerry; -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 18:58:01 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- Around knowledge you have NO beliefs at all? -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 05:42:26 (GMT)
__ __ Hector -:- Around knowledge you have NO beliefs at all? -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 01:32:32 (GMT)
__ __ Keith -:- Around knowledge you have NO beliefs at all? -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 10:35:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- Who said anything about god? (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 11:57:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Keith -:- I did silly! nt. -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 15:47:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- arghhh right, a joke!! (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 02:27:52 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- reply from an unbalanced 40 year old -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 05:39:40 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- LOL, Selene -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 19:48:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ VP -:- LOL, Selene -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 03:24:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- mentally balanced and you are here. -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 04:17:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- socializing on forum -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 20:04:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- socializing on forum (sorta OT) -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 20:27:29 (GMT)
__ __ Dave -:- well done -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 05:54:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Keith -:- well done -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 10:40:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Vacol (Keith) says 'Let the Debate begin!' -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 14:36:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Hector -:- Jim- Change carreer -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 01:35:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- Spot on Jim. -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 15:44:24 (GMT)

O -:- My observations -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 23:45:12 (GMT)
__ JohnT -:- Your observations are delusional -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 08:50:47 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Get back O O get back to where you belong nt -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 13:44:15 (GMT)
__ Hot Potato -:- My observations -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 11:49:14 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- Well in that case, the site will disappear -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 05:32:06 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- this site will not disappear ham -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 06:46:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ ham -:- Is the secure line, techno? -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 08:07:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- the secure line is any way you want it ham -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 19:07:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ ham -:- the secure line is any way you want it ham, whooaa -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:31:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Ham why don't you just admit that... -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 10:58:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- It's all one house, no spiritual superiority -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 11:52:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Hamzen is a racist -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 13:23:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Coming from a right wing zionist that's amusing! -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 13:26:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Will he comprehend? -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 14:56:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Hamzen doesn't know that I'm not a white -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:20:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Certainly do, and that ain't all either!! -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 13:00:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Hamzen has no sense of smell -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 11:29:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Selene you realize that if you are listening to -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 12:54:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- What did you do to your nose -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 14:40:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I absolutely love you both -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 16:35:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I can dance good -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:36:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Some of us are a bit slow u know!! -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 01:00:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- sure no problem -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 03:09:02 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- Two questions -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 04:20:24 (GMT)
__ Powerman -:- pond scum -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 04:10:43 (GMT)
__ gErRy -:- You slimy liar...nt -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 03:50:08 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- My observations -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 01:56:07 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- My observations -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 17:23:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- You betcha, cq :) NT -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 17:56:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- You betcha, Elaine ;) -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:24:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- You betcha, Elaine ;) -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 15:37:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- You betcha, Elaine ;) -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 23:12:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Oh and SB... -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 18:37:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Oh and SB... -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 20:00:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Oh and SB... -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 22:31:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Oh and SB... -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 13:27:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Oh and SB... -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 15:10:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Hi Katie -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 15:02:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Oh and SB... -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 23:31:52 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- my feelings about Raina and the forum -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:56:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- my feelings about Raina and the forum -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 17:21:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- my feelings about Raina and the forum -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 19:41:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- my feelings about Raina and the forum -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 04:23:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Keith about compassion -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 16:24:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- my feelings -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:35:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- my feelings -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 13:49:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- my feelings -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 15:40:40 (GMT)
__ __ Charlie -:- My observations -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 14:21:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- TRiple ROFL!!! -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 03:04:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- Charlie -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 14:48:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- Elaine, I have to say this: -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 04:08:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- So that there's no mistake post as SB always NT -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 15:44:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- So that there's no mistake post as SB always NT -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 00:11:58 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- I once thought that premies................... -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 13:52:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- I once thought that premies................... -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 04:35:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Hal -:- Hi SB -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:55:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Hi Hal!! -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 23:44:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I can barely remember thinking otherwise -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 15:28:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Fighting premies ideas is fighting Lard -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 23:53:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Forgive for what? -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 00:34:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- OK -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 03:55:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- I once thought that premies................... -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 14:53:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Hal -:- Not to be taken personally Elaine..... -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 15:11:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gorgeous -:- Wish you all the best -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 23:17:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Not to be taken personally Elaine..... -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:16:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What about my challenge, Elaine? (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:18:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ And if you won't read my -:- posts, I'll repeat it in subject lines (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:19:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ You call yourself 'reason -:- able'? Find one person outside (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:20:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ the premie world who you -:- can show these sites to, including (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:21:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ the Quotes, Journeys, his -:- torical background stuff AND ELK (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:22:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ who will agree that it's -:- 'reasonable' to follow Maharaji (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:23:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Administrator -:- Please... -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:46:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, what about Free Speech? OR Speach? (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 15:17:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Well at least yours weren't deleted like mine were -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 18:45:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Are you serious? You got censored for swearing? -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 00:30:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Yup, my First Amendment rights have been violated -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 04:10:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hard to say, Rob, I'm only a cult leader -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 04:35:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- I think you need to have a chat with O -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 04:55:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Okay, testing, testing ...Fuck you, Rob! (nt) -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 05:05:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- P.S. -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 05:10:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Strength through unity, huh? -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 05:20:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Just don't miss the hanging (nt) -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 05:22:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Oy! Not me, THEM. You fucker!!!! nt -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 05:08:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh, sorry.... Fuck you, premie trolls! (nt) -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 05:15:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Goddamn it you're cute. nt -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:46:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- Sholom Elaine -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 23:30:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- I like the hard part,Harry,keep it up NT -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:39:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- O my God! That is SOOO beautiful! O my God! (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 23:34:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Goddamn it you're cute -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:59:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- So now I take the time to ans. Jim... -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 15:48:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Noticed you posted to me below ----- -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 18:40:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- How old are you? 12? -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 04:07:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Now that's not evasive, is it, Elaine? -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 00:16:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- SOOORyy! -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 16:08:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- A true reflection -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 09:33:45 (GMT)
__ __ Shut up Elaine -:- SB begs you! nt -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 11:53:50 (GMT)
__ __ keith -:- My observations -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 07:35:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- My observations -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 13:04:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ (Sir) David -:- My observations -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 14:03:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- My observations: You are right -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 03:58:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ (Sir) David -:- My observations: You are right -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 09:34:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- My observations -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 14:58:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Sir Dave -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 14:57:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ (Sir) David -:- Sir Dave -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 10:23:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Sir Dave,you did? -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 15:51:57 (GMT)
__ __ gErRy -:- I wish raina were here... -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 04:07:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- You've never been more right... -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 15:09:35 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- Elaine, O... -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 02:59:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Keith -:- Elaine, O... -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 07:41:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- What do YOU expect? -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 11:58:38 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- My observations -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 02:46:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- My observationsJerry -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 15:06:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- What you really are is superficial, Elaine -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 15:33:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Keith -:- My observations -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 07:46:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Are you blind? -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 11:08:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Are you blind? -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:31:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Just how hurt am I, Elaine? Please, I need 2 know -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 19:38:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- You're a LIAR, Elaine, here's why.... -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 17:26:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- You're a LIAR, Elaine, here's why.... -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 17:55:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Oh you just changed your mind and you really -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 18:12:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- Are you blind? -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:47:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Grrr!!! -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 18:48:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Grrr!!! -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 21:27:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Grrr!!! -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 01:04:07 (GMT)
__ (Sir) David -:- This isn't the real world though -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 01:49:23 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Go to hell, Dave -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 15:38:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ (Sir) David -:- I've already been, thanks -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 17:52:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gErRy -:- Now goddammit, DAve it's... -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 18:18:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ (Sir) David -:- UFOs really exist 100% -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 19:32:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- UFOs really exist 100% -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 20:04:12 (GMT)
__ __ gErRy -:- Dave you slut -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 04:16:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ (Sir) David -:- Dave you slut -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 10:48:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Keith -:- Keep on slutting Dave .nt -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 07:50:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rob -:- Must admit, Dave, looks like you're recruiting! nt -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 04:22:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Keith -:- Keep on recruiting Dave. -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 07:52:32 (GMT)
__ VP -:- My observations -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 01:38:25 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- not everyone here is like that -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 01:13:06 (GMT)
__ __ Breckguy -:- not everyone here is like that -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 05:38:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- What point have you made? -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 12:32:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Breckguy is possibly 'Dave'... -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:16:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- Breckguy? ok there is a joke I am missing here -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 06:09:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Breckguy? ok there is a joke I am missing here -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:19:28 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 05:32:06 (GMT)
From: Hector
Email: Hector@nospam.com
To: Everyone
Subject: My email exchange with an expremie
Message:
This is an unedited version of an email exchange between me and a person that emailed me unsolicited, accusing me to belong to a cult.

Hope you find this interesting.

=Hector

========================
>I have no special authority to assess the group as a cult. However,
>professionals in this arena have labelled it a cult. I think
> if you look at the definition of a cult, you will agree this group satisfies all the
>criteria .
===============
I really find this funny... 'Cult' is just a word that tries to describe something. We love putting things in little boxes, so our mind can rest. Whatever Maharaji is, it is in the followers of Maharaji that it manifest itself. Maharaji is nothing to many people and something very special to others. (Best example, you and I...). That is very true.

- The Master is only master to those who recognize him as a Master
- A Master manifest out of the desire of the student to know


=========================
>There are as many reason as there are individuals for 'crusading' >against
>your group. Were you around in the seventies? I think the best >answer to
>this question could be found in the 'journies' section of the ex->premie.org
>website. Have you had a chance to read any of those?
=========================
I received Knowledge 20 years ago, and I admit that many things from these early days were a bit strange. I lived in an Ashram for a few years, but do not have ANY of the feelings of betrayal that many of the ex-premies express. I guess that after all, it all boils down to an individual's experience. In fact, I was in a war (a real war, guns and all) when I was in the Ashram. It was amazing for me to discover that the only thing that counted was my *real* understanding, the things that I *really* new about myself, Maharaji and my life. During these difficult times, I came to the realization that it does not matter what other think of you and what do you think of yourself. Reality is POWERFUL. You are what you know of yourself. Period.

=======================================
>I feel I have taken responsibility for my life as have most people who >are
>actively ex-premies. There is an amazing assortment of people there: >some
>well educated and doing extremely well, all the way to folks who are >at the
>opposite end of the spectrum, just like your group and the world in >general.
========================================
Well... If you go to the forum, 90% of the posting are submitted by what it seems a group of unbalanced 40 to 50 year olds, with a past that they cannot put at rest. Most of the postings are simply stupid, against something and nothing but a want 'to be against' something. Or mostly the want to 'belong' to something. Some people there even socialize in the Forum. Weird and pretty pathetic, if you ask me. Somehow, going back to your assessment of a 'cult', It seems that the people there could also be labelled as a 'cult', using your own distinction.

Just a question: Are ortodox Jews a cult? Are rappers a cult? Were the first Christians a cult? Are the teenager followers of Jeniffer Lopez a cult? Do an excercise: Write your definition of cult, then take any of the groups I mentioned and see if you have a match.

Cult: Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing. The object of such devotion.

========================
>It is sorta fun to 'attack' Maharaji's and premies 'point of view' I >grant
>you that. It's so easy to show the irrationality and conflicts in the
>'message.' But my main reason is because of the continuation of >propgation
>of what I feel is a harmful and destructive cult.
=====================
Oh... assumtions. You assume that there IS a premie point of view. Well my friend, there are as many points of view as there are premies. I know many people with Knowledge and I admire the diversity. I have travelled extensively and met many people with Knowledge and they are all different, unique human beings with just one thing in common: their appreciation for Maharaji and Knowledge.

You assume that you know 'better'. Why don't youy leave it to each individual to decide? People will receive Knowledge if they want it. You received it and then let go. Right? So what is the big deal? Or are you impliying that you are more intelligent and capable than others? You stopped following Maharaji. Nobody stopped you. Great! That is the way it should be. People acting out of their free will. And please, don't give me the 'brainwash' rap. We are soo brainwashed by TV, newspapers, etc. already. Nobody is obliged to listen to Maharaji. In fact, you have to make the effort (how much effort you need to make to slouch in front of the TV and get brainwashed...?).

Regarding the 'irrationality of the message'. What do you mean? I just hear Maharaji say when he was 10, 13, 20, 35 and nowdays: 'know yourself', 'What you are looking is inside of you'. 'Enjoy this life'. 'Listen to yur heart'.

========================
>Yes, the ex-premie forum can be childish and petty at times, and there >is
>conflict and disagreement among participants. But everyone can freely
>express their opinions, joys, sorrows and discuss, argue, and work out >what
>ever negative or positive feeling they are experiencing. I'm sure you >are
>partly correct in your assessment: lots of folks are stunted >intellectually
>and emotionally from there years, and in many cases, decades, of >involvement
>with this cult of personality you call 'knowledge.'
=================================
I simpy do not accept your assessment that the reason for these people to be unbalanced is that the 'decades of involvement'. These people will find any excuse for their lack of maturity. You know, victims are these that want to be that. We are people, human beings, with so much going for us that if we only make the right choices there is nothing to stop us from enjoying this life and progressing and evolving. I simply do not accept your premise (pun not intended).

The fact that people can say something does not necessarily means that they have something relevant to say. In our 'democratic' society we 'value' opinion. Regardless if that opinion is valuable, relevant, positive or helpful. We love debate, even if we do not have a clue about the subject. We have opinions on everything. We know everything...We have the *right* to say whatever is in our minds Right? Then look at the state of our society: teenagers killing their friends, corruption, lies lies and more lies from our politicians, bigotry, heatred for people of different race or belief. In that perspective NOTHING HAS CHANGED in 1,000 years of civilization. As long as we do not know ourselves this is the world we will be living in. It has to be a change at the level of the INDIVIDUAL.

========================
>The forum is only a small part of the website. I urge you to look at >the
>other section of the website, especially the 'journies' section and the
>DLM/EV papers section put together by a French ex-instructor, a person >with
>lots of experience being around Maharaji
========================
Yes, I read the materials there. My assessment is that whoever wrote these articles, have taken 10% of reality, mixed it with 50% rumors and added 40% of speculation. And believe me, I know.

=============================
>I didn't think about M or K for years until I got on the internet and >did a
>search. It was by no means a consuming passion with me over the >years. Now
>I consider it like a hobby, 'service,' if you will.
============================
This is what really rubs me the wrong way... You seem an intelligent person. Why in the world would you put your valuable time and energy to be against Maharaji? Believe me, being against something is a negative. Much better and definitevely more satisfactory is to be *for* something. I don't know, but there are so many causes out there that are positive. Why to spend your time on this? Beats me...

=================================
>It is indeed many peoples' assessment, professional and lay people >included,
>that you are in a cult. Have you ever considered that yourself? Ask >an
>outside disinterested person. Show this person the entire history >from the
>early days of DLM to it's present incarnation as Elan Vital. Ask them >if
>they think it is a cult.
=================================
I would not give 5 cents to any 'professional' assessment. All these 'anti-cult' guys give me the creeps. Strange people indeed.

Maharaji's knowledge is an experience to be experience by individuals. There is nothing that you can do to try and make it a 'society' or 'group'. I do not have ANYTHING in common with a premie in Ghana, Mauritius or Taiwan. Our cultures differ. Our languages differ. Our principles and values, differ. The only commonality is an understanding and a deep, extremely personal experience.

Funny... Elan Vital is just a loose group of people trying to assist Maharaji. It is funny that you and others make it a 'demonic' organization. Real funny.

===========================
>As for the development of the fine qualities you obviously have, I >have to
>ask, why do you attribute that to M and K? There are millions of >really
>fine, morally and oustanding people in the world who have never heard >of
>Maharaji. And of, course, we all share the downside of those things, >and
>niversally have our weakness and 'dark sides' if you will.
===========================
You see, I am what I am. Only I know what it is in my deepest place. You also know the same about you. I want just to get closer and closer to who I really am. Maharaji and Knowldege offers me a path (not defined in any book or doctrine) to follow my own heart and to be brave enough to look, see and became more human. That is all.

======================
One question if you have time: Maharaji's brother, Sat Pal ( I knew him as
Bal Bagwan Ji) claims to be the true satguru with the real authority to
distribute 'knowledge.' So how do you square that with your beliefs?
=====================
You see, you keep talking about 'my beliefs'. I have many beliefs, for example I believe that the market is going to slow down and would be better to hold and not buy new stocks until the volatiliy desists. That is a belief. Knowledge is not a belief. Knowledge is a reality within me. I do not care about what Sat Pal is or potrays to be. So far, I have not exhausted Knowledge, I will keep at it. So long as my want to follow Maharaji is there I will follow. I am a free person. Simple.

-- Hector

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:53:33 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: Hector
Subject: Excellent exchange H
Message:
Reading your post was like being a fly on the wall during a Jehova's Witness visit.Your inquisiter was removed from the protection of his support group and standing in the light of day his argument disintigrated.He/she really looked like they were in a cult of their own,parroting a party line which was a definitely a group derived 'think',not carrying the conviction of having understood something for themself.
For a person like this with an inclination to adopt the ideas of others it is basically the same whether they are becoming a premie,born-again Christian,Amway dealer or an ex-premie.They feel,'I can finally feel good about myself and all I have to do is buy into this party line.'Or 'There are others here who are willing to support me and all I have to do is agree with them.'
For the person prone to not thinking for themself they are ripe to join a cult no matter what they do.In the past these premies were always the ones most confused and a lot left,because there was nothing real to hold them.Maybe their premie support group wasn't what it used to be,maybe they couldn't stand parroting a party line they didn't really believe,maybe they just needed a change.
Whatever the case there wasn't anything real to keep them there.The falacy is they believe everyone's experience was like theirs but they have a hard time admitting they even have that propensity themself.Very funny.Exers selectively forget M always challenged them to have their own experience,always challenged a thing he called concepts.Nice to see people like yourself took his advice and are able to articulate with strength and conviction your experience,it's refreshing to see..
I do see value in the exers playing out their little hand though ,they are shaking the tree helping remove dead wood.Some of the dead wood has moved on while some have fallen into their normal pattern and bought the expremie mindset,this person being a case in point.My prediction is they will move on again and again until they realize the root of their problem.That is when it will REALLY take guts,for they will have to walk a singular path alone.
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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 01:23:41 (GMT)
From: Hector
Email: Hector@nospam.com
To: O
Subject: Excellent exchange H
Message:
I could nto agree more. By some reason, ex-premies have been 'left alone' for too long. Really, is just that lately some of the people frequenting this forum have become too obscene, too angry and too visible (more than they really need to be).

I am for free speech 100%. Fact is that most premies do not have the time and inclination to spend time posting here. They have a life to live, work to do, kids to parent, business to grow. But it is about time that people with Knowledge start addressing some of the allegations posted here and challenge the believes held by people in this forum.

I personally know some of them, and find it quite amazing to see them posting with such fervor against something that they certainly valued in their past.

It is incredible that a small group of people can make so much 'noise'. Thanks to the Interenet, even a small group of people can have a voice. This is OK with me, but let's not forget that there are 100's of thousands out there that derive a real benefit from M and K.

If I was an ex-premie (strange, being called an 'ex-anything, don't you think?), I will get on with my life and keep thriving to become a better human being, void of hate, bigotry and lies.

Hector

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 13:22:05 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Hector
Subject: Oh my Christ- it's PWK talking to EACH OTHER now!!
Message:
Don't you have homes to go to?
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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 13:57:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Yes, and here's what's really funny
Message:
They might even know each other but, because they're not supposed to be here, they can't identify themselves. I saw this happen recently with Dogg, who I know. He was posting at the same time as another premie who knows him from the old day but who doesn't KNOW they know him because, well, they just can't be that open, can they? So this premie's posting to Dog and he's replying and only Dog and I know that they know each other. Now what's THAT about, huh? Bullshit, if you ask me.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 22:03:18 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Hector
Subject: My email exchange with an expremie
Message:
Dear Hector,
You talk of the 'dark side' that everything has, what about the 'dark side' to Maharaji and to knowledge?

I am so fed up of premies characterising people who no longer believe and trust in M or K as emotionally unbalanced, angry, stunted, whatever.

The reason I persist in talking with premies is because until very recently I was one too, and I want them to know that when they are hurt by their misdirected trust, there are plenty of people who understand what they are going through. LE

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 20:24:52 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Hector
Subject: Consider this, Hector
Message:
You have been allowed to have your little whine here.

You will not be deleted, even though sections of your 'argument' are very insulting to forum members who you obviously don't even know. May I refer you to Katie's reply to Keith lower down - much of the content is applicable, re. the person who considers himself spiritually superior and feels qualified to pass judgement on 'the forum', as if it were a movement or club when the forum is no more than a place where people leave messages. When you post, you are part of the forum.

By contrast, which of the pro-Maharaji websites will tolerate open discussion, or allow the mildest of criticisms?

That is just one reason you are in a cult and we are not. And no amount of playing with the semantics will change that.

Go meditate. Sounds like your blissometer's registering empty.

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:58:42 (GMT)
From: Hector
Email: Hector@nospam.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Consider this, Hector
Message:
You have been allowed to have your little whine here.

Nigel, whoever you are...

What do you want me to do? To drop on the floor, of fear of being 'expulsed' from this sacred forum? Give me a break.

I thought that this forum was for free expression.

Free expression in the ex-premie forum means:
1. You must use expletives and obscenity when talkig about premies, knowledge or Maharaji

3. You should be paranoid, a bigot, or better, both at the same time

2. The more obscene you are the 'cooler' you are

3. Bash, invent, imagine, speculate, decieve, and you are VERY welcome.

4. If you post a positive thing about M and K, then you are dead meat.

Accept it: People visiting this forum are a small bunch of dissolutioned people that took on beliefs that they did not REALLY needed in the first place; that are totally stuck in the past and that they are unable to pick themselves up and get on with their lives.

...And of course, feel free to censor me anytime. Thanks.

= Hector

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:32:21 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Hector
Subject: Consider this, Hector
Message:
Hector -
I really object to your complete generalization of the forum as follows (not to mention your supposed 'rules' which I will not quote, but which were extremely insulting to the people who post here):

People visiting this forum are a small bunch of dissolutioned people that took on beliefs that they did not REALLY needed in the first place; that are totally stuck in the past and that they are unable to pick themselves up and get on with their lives.

For one thing, YOU are visiting and posting on this forum, so I suppose you include yourself in this group?

For another, how would you like it if I wrote:
Premies are a small bunch of people who believe in an illusion; who took on beliefs that they did not REALLY need in the first place; who are totally stuck in the past and who are unable to pick themselves up and get on with their lives.

Although some people might agree wholeheartedly with this statement, I try to avoid making generalizations like this about premies - I know that premies aren't all the same. It seems to me that you could ALSO avoid making generalizations about ex-premies. It makes you sound quite close-minded, and very prejudiced.

I should also make the point that the purpose of this forum is NOT 'free expression', as you seem to believe. Where did you get this idea? Read the forum guidelines, and read the title at the top of the page. Frankly, I am tired of premies complaining about being censored here when none of the premie web sites have any kind of interactive forum. (I think there actually IS a 'premies and friends' forum, but most premies seem to prefer to post here. I should add that the 'premies and friends' forum IS moderated, and negative posts about Maharaji is deleted)

You, Keith, or anyone else here can easily set up and administrate any kind of forum you want - free expression, unmoderated, etc., and if you really have as much of a problem with this forum as you say you do, I advise you to do that, instead of complaining that this particular forum is not the way YOU would like it to be.

Sincerely,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 17:13:00 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: not given
To: Hector
Subject: My email exchange with an expremie
Message:
You said you are a part of a group that is trying to assist Maharaj Ji. Assist him how? Assist him with what? What assistance does he need? Does he ever assist you? With $$$?
Sure you are free to do what ever you want to do, as is everbody.
I just wonder if you ever really stopped to think about Maharaj Ji's motives for doing what he does. Have you compared your lifestyle with his? How does he live in comparison? How much of your hard earned cash have you donated to his mission? Be honest with yourself, to thine own self be true brother.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:36:59 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Hector
Subject: Jeez, Hec I don't recall giving you permission to
Message:
post our PRIVATE E-MAIL CONVERSATION. But since ethics are not exactly number one priority in your stinking little pissant cult, I guess it's understandable.

With one objection, I stand by everything I wrote to you: and that objection is that is my email to you was not exactly unsolicited. Your very public website with large picture of Goober and searchable as 'maharaji' has a very prominent link ASKING PEOPLE TO E-MAIL YOU.

So it was in NO WAY unsolicited and you are a fucking liar and pond scum like the rest of your fucking cult pals.

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 01:37:25 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: What's this fuckwit's web url Gerry? NT
Message:
Nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:46:39 (GMT)
From: Said gerry
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: who enjoys reading pedophile pornographic books
Message:
NT
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 17:32:29 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: bjorn who loves 5 yr olds
Subject: Well, my favorite scene in Opus Pistorum was
Message:
when our two heros (Henry Miller and his pal) took turns fucking this willing migdet gal whos *best* friend was a rather large german shepherd. But that's only a small part of the fun; after all Henry was paid by the word on this one...
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 17:43:04 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: bjorn in velvet hotpants
Subject: And Bjorn, don't blow a load, but the twelve year
Message:
old girl had sex with her father !!!

Now I know you don't like 'em that old, five year olds are your thing but if you send me your address I mail ya my copy. If you can't wait that long, just look for Henry Miller's Opus Pistorum. You shouldn't have any problem finding it in Norway...

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 18:58:01 (GMT)
From: I think
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: the definition of a liar, Gerry;
Message:
is a person who knowingly utters a falshood suits very well for you.
Maybe you are only sick. Maybe it is a good advice for you to see a shrink?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 05:42:26 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Hector
Subject: Around knowledge you have NO beliefs at all?
Message:
Have you ever thought about how what processes are going on within your consciousness/biology for you to feel the way you do, or are processes just a waste of time looking at?
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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 01:32:32 (GMT)
From: Hector
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Around knowledge you have NO beliefs at all?
Message:
You read too much... Too many books, too many ideas.

What about KNOWING something for yourself. You discover it, you understand it, you KNOW it. Any of that lately...?

Hector

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 10:35:59 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Around knowledge you have NO beliefs at all?
Message:
I'm convinced Hamzen. God was/is a Biologist. Reconciliation at last. Eureka!
And I'm impressed with your clear concise response to Hector's effort. Truth requires few words,eh?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 11:57:22 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Who said anything about god? (nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 15:47:04 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: I did silly! nt.
Message:
nt.
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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 02:27:52 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: arghhh right, a joke!! (nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 05:39:40 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Hector
Subject: reply from an unbalanced 40 year old
Message:
And I am not into it. But..
Maharaji did nothing for me lately but give me an excuse to travel when I couldn't find any other one.
And earlier, in the 70's-mid 80's a major pressure to travel when I couldn't afford it. LOVED the part about ex premie org consisting of mostly unbalanced 40 - 50 year olds. yeah maharaji that WAS when you made you big splash, uh 71-7? so of course we are of that age group. And so are most of the unbalanced premies.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 19:48:22 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: LOL, Selene
Message:
LOL at THIS, especially the subtle drop-in of the last line.

LOVED the part about ex premie org consisting of mostly unbalanced 40 - 50 year olds. yeah maharaji that WAS when you made you big splash, uh 71-7? so of course we are of that age group. And so are most of the unbalanced premies.

Still laughing,
Katie
who is one of those poor pitiful people who actually SOCIALIZES on the forum...

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 03:24:17 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: LOL, Selene
Message:
Bwahahahahaha!
Good post, Selene!
From a mentally balanced (most of the time) Thirtysomething
VP
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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 04:17:49 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: mentally balanced and you are here.
Message:
Okaaaaay.
thanks VP. It's good talking with you again :)
I'll always remember how confused I was and it wasn't that long ago. Leaving M was so hard. Not him. Never HAD him but leaving all the thought processes. Dealing with all the anger.
and losing so called friends. That is why continuity, like us talking, means a lot to me.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 20:04:22 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: socializing on forum
Message:
Actually I think this is more common than one would expect. Not here perhaps, for me or others. But I just got involved in an English Dept project about the net and socializing.
A lot more people are using this type of medium to communicate, I guess. Enough so that others are doing research on it.
Glad I made you laugh!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 20:27:29 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: socializing on forum (sorta OT)
Message:
Well, I have moved across country twice since last April, and left friends behind, so I really appreciate being able to talk to the same people on the forum! Since 1993, I have moved from Virginia to Colorado to Missouri to Ohio and then back to Virginia, so I keep in touch with almost all my friends by e-mail (even most of the people I knew in Virginia from 1993 have moved on - it's a college town and you know how that is.)

I do owe you an e-mail, BTW. Finally have a student worker who is very competent, so I'm getting a slight break.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 05:54:07 (GMT)
From: Dave
Email: sunriver@colorado.net
To: Selene
Subject: well done
Message:
Hector, Thanks for a more positive view.....
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 10:40:44 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Dave and Hector.
Subject: well done
Message:
Ditto! Keep posting Hector. Perhaps we could establish a premie and ex-premie debate for moderates who can actually debate without experiencing extreme heart palpatations. Afterall, we are all human. I think!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 14:36:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Vacol (Keith) says 'Let the Debate begin!'
Message:
Still trying to establish the Great Debate, Keith? I can see it now.

Moderates of all stripes attending the campus of a major American university sometime this summer. Classes are out, hardly any students around but the campus is alive, swarming with Keith's Great Debate attendants. Three or four thousand pre-registered but another fifteen hundred show up the first day of the week-long event. They come from all parts of the world, these Moderates, and the campus dining hall is a bursting boquet of exotic, robust smells as the various international teams take turns hosting lunches and dinners. And there's singing too, lots of it. The Irish team can't shut up, they're so excited and full of spirit and song. The Brazilians have a song or two of their own and before too long all the teams are attending every meal with a few new verses of competitive, philosophical banter. There's something in the air that everyone can feel. And all this before on even enters the Great Hall.

The evenings in the hall are amazing. If only all academe could engage its enterprise with such inspiration! Moderate after moderate takes the podium, expressing profound platitudes and rich, vague homilies. You wanted to feel good? Well you came to the right place for as each speaker closes out his or her address and returns to their seat all the crowd nods in sublime approval. You can see what they're all thinking; it's no surprise: 'This is it. This is the Great Debate!'. The moment's lost on no one. And lest there be a single soul who doesn't get the historical significance of the occasion -- hardly possible if they heard Keith's opening address -- there are all sorts of pennants, pictures, mugs and other souvenirs on sale outside the hall. This is a Great Day for Keith and a Great Day for Moderation. There's already talk of hosting another Event next summer, in Eurpoe this time. The word is that Keith has already said he's willing to consider it. Alright!

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 01:35:27 (GMT)
From: Hector
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim- Change carreer
Message:
Hey Jim,

I see you have a knack for satirical writing. Why don't you make a living using this skill of yours.

Better than posting in this forum: A waste of your valuable time.

Hector

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 15:44:24 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Spot on Jim.
Message:
That's it! I'm inviting you too Jim!
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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 23:45:12 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My observations
Message:
In the months I've been reading the forum posts a few things strike me.One is how quickly people are called liars and slime.How quickly things degrade into outright verbal abuse.How much contempt there is for individuals who don't see eye to eye.How personal allegiences over ride touted ideals of caring and truth to create disgustingly discriminatory hate retoric.How bullying tactics are the norm.
In my opinion there is no acceptable excuse in this universe for the kind of anti-human treatment that goes on here and if it were my website I'd be ashamed..It is a cesspool of free speech where your inalienable right to hate and abuse is given free reign.
I contrast that to the respect and kindness I have always gotten in the world of K and I am so thankful there is my home.Yes,there are quirky individuals there like everywhere.Yes there is personal ambition there like everywhere.Yes there are all kinds of people there,but that's just it,there ARE all kinds and they are all accepted.It is a place where the individual is respected and the heart is nurished.Your ex-premie world on the other hand is incredibly discrimintory where the only thing that seems to grow in people is their anger,hate,and ability to verbally abuse others.The fate of your site and the individuals will no doubt be tied to its prevailing character.
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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 08:50:47 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Your observations are delusional
Message:
O speaks with a forked tongue. Here's two bits:

O:(the ex-premie Forum) is a cesspool of free speech where your inalienable right to hate and abuse is given free reign.

JohnT points out:This is incorrect. Forum administrators intervene fairly regularly. Also, individual posters take each other to task over the style and substance of material posted here.

O:(the world of K) is a place where the individual is respected and the heart is nurished.

JohnT points out:Whatever else it may be a devotional cult (including yours) does NOT respect individuality. Leave no room for doubt in your mind or in your heart about THAT, dear 0.

Premies have a party line. Ex-premies think for themselves. Free your mind 0, you may well experience a lot of anger in the process, but plenty of people here will understand what you are going through. Your reward will be an ability to see things as they are, and to communicate honestly about what you find in the world.

Your alternative is to continue to be a nothing, a mere cypher in Rawat's dishonest and delusional life.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 13:44:15 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Get back O O get back to where you belong nt
Message:
bye
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 11:49:14 (GMT)
From: Hot Potato
Email: None
To: O
Subject: My observations
Message:
You are angry.

Ask yourself: Why? Because this site tells it like it's, and your belief system has been shaken and you have a need to deny the truth about the gobber? you are afraid...but is nothing to it...just walk away and have a good life. There is no rotten vegetables!!!

I like your line about exes not nourishing the heart of the participants of this forum...I don't come here to have my heart nourished...do you? The truth, baby, we come here to hear the truth...

You feel attacked and cornered here because you are!! You have no place else to go. But you don't want real truth. You want the truth that your master has created for you. Then? Enjoy the cult!! We exes left the beliefs that you so dearly want to keep. So what? GO AWAY IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT!!

sb

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 05:32:06 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Well in that case, the site will disappear
Message:
out of neglect, who wants to bother just reading bile all the time. Be grateful we don't get our act together here.

And as we know how much love there is in the world of the maha, well his message is just spreading further and further.

Not.

In my experience the number of people posting goes up & up.

Would like to see the figures for hits over time, suspect it would parallel the increase in the number of people posting.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 06:46:09 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: this site will not disappear ham
Message:
But I love the way it is evolving. There is good in the challenges, the new energy that have come along. If for no other reason than that it is NEW. but, like you I hate the spamming aspect of it when it happens. It's tedious and boring to me.

gotta take the bad with the good. I still get a lot of support here, when I start to wonder, what did I leave behind exactly? I never get definitive answers, since I don't bother to ask the direct questions any more. I think I'm over the critical 'leaving the cult phase'.

But just reading and watching and participating at will is very helpful. Plus there is your music!!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 08:07:58 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Is the secure line, techno?
Message:
Hi Selene, the music over here this year is getting, sweet, sweet, sweet, really deep but not at all pretentious.

I will get those tapes together soon, promise, detour phase at the moment. Oh shit and that web site add.

Never enough fucking time is there!

Selene which one of the tapes have you synced with the most??

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 19:07:47 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: the secure line is any way you want it ham
Message:
I really liked a tape you sent last year. There was no label so I can't tell you. It was very trancelike and built-up, very sensual. No lyrics. except a woman's voice coming in from time to time, on a few times actually, saying 'from here to nowhere'

Most of the tape was like that. Does that make any sense at all?

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:31:04 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: the secure line is any way you want it ham, whooaa
Message:
Yeash, yeah,oh right, so you like the slower stuff!The track was by a band called crustration, either 'purple' or 'now ti never', you couldn't get it now except at one of those hard to find classic vinyl shops for house stuff. You're into seriously crusty stuff by the way, we're talking full on dreadlocks traveller mode! My roots (yeah, yeah, pad pun!)
Was there another track on there, with male saying, builds up to saying, 'when you get to the centre of yourself, you'll find nothing but yourself' etc etc
Was the tape titled 4amzen?

You into Tricky & Massive Attack? Sure they must be known in the u.s? maybe not?

The secure line has to be the length of a washing line, with, actually that stuff you liked called 'trip hop', playing, and maybe you'd be up for doing us a little dance,
maybe, go-on!
Ha!
:)

Check out dj shadow, should be able to get his stuff easy, think you might like.

blah de blah

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 10:58:21 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Ham why don't you just admit that...
Message:
trance music is just the best.
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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 11:52:02 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: It's all one house, no spiritual superiority
Message:
In spirit, yeah, don't doubt for a moment it is,

but but but,

what about the gay scene

what about the mixed/ black white scenes

trance will never communicate to them because it's all higher chakra stuff, look at the names of the bands & the events, afterall

the one we went to was called kundalini for god's sake!!!!!

:)

whereas drum & bass or garage are into it without the eastern hippy rainbow colours, and hips at the core, not the chest upwards which is just so white!!!!!

Don't worry though, just a few more months and you'll get it, ha!!

big hugs to ta both ya from the patronising & self-absorbed one

do let us know what you think of those bits of vinyl you took back home with yer, you'll make a dj yet.

By the way, love to do a mix tape with ya sometime, and soon,
you up for it?

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 13:23:14 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Hamzen is a racist
Message:
'In spirit, yeah, don't doubt for a moment it is'

The REAL ABSOLUE TRUTH is that trance is the source of all,I'm glad you can se that if only for a monent.

,
'but but but,
what about the gay scene
what about the mixed/ black white scenes'

What about them?...how do you know who is gay or not...and just because you did't see many black people that night doesn't mean a thing. How do you consider Asians/Indians?

'trance will never communicate to them because it's all higher chakra stuff, look at the names of the bands & the events, afterall'

That's a REALLY racist statement.
Ever heard of Shpongle?

'the one we went to was called kundalini for god's sake!!!!!
:)'
So what?..it's a name...what is a good name 'Jack Boots'

'whereas drum & bass or garage are into it without the eastern hippy rainbow colours, and hips at the core, not the chest upwards which is just so white!!!!!'

Black, white boy are you stuck in Nation Front culture!!!!
It's not your fault considering where you live. You will recover.

'Don't worry though, just a few more months and you'll get it, ha!!'
you sound like a cultist.

'By the way, love to do a mix tape with ya sometime, and soon,
you up for it? '

ye I'd really love too..you may learn something.

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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 13:26:38 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Coming from a right wing zionist that's amusing!
Message:
 'In spirit, yeah, don't doubt for a moment it is'
The REAL ABSOLUE TRUTH is that trance is the source of all,I'm glad you can se that if only for a monent.

If anything is the source of all it's disco, specially those georgio moroder/donna summer singles, but I'll let the historical innaccuracy pass, after all new cult members are always more gung-ho than older wiser, more experienced heads,ha!!

'but but but,
what about the gay scene
what about the mixed/ black white scenes'

No it's the SPIRIT of the gay scene I meant, the spiruit of the 'black/white' scenes. Out of the spirit of comes an equally profound truth, so is this a ONE truth higher than all?

'trance will never communicate to them because it's all higher chakra stuff, look at the names of the bands & the events, afterall'
That's a REALLY racist statement.
Ever heard of Shpongle?

In general black people see through the cultural & social weaknesses of that route, they're more street trained from experiencing duality all around them
Haven't heard of shpongle, don't know about??

'the one we went to was called kundalini for god's sake!!!!!
:)'
So what?..it's a name...what is a good name 'Jack Boots'

If you were into gabba, it would be perfect!!

'whereas drum & bass or garage are into it without the eastern hippy rainbow colours, and hips at the core, not the chest upwards which is just so white!!!!!'
Black, white boy are you stuck in Nation Front culture!!!!

The typical new age reaction when confronted with the truth!
It's not your fault considering where you live. You will recover.
'Don't worry though, just a few more months and you'll get it, ha!!'
you sound like a cultist.

Na, just some one who's been there, got the t-shirt!!!He he he!
'By the way, love to do a mix tape with ya sometime, and soon,
you up for it? '
ye I'd really love too..you may learn something.

I should hope so to. So what ya gonna bring with ya, vinyl/cd wise?
We could do one of those dj battles, breakbeat v trance!!

luv ya as always

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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 14:56:23 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Will he comprehend?
Message:
'If anything is the source of all it's disco, specially those georgio moroder/donna summer singles, but I'll let the historical innaccuracy pass, after all new cult members are always more gung-ho than older wiser, more experienced heads,ha!!'

Trance started long before there were even any electricity or instruments. The primordial trance is inside of you, you just have to find it.


'No it's the SPIRIT of the gay scene I meant, the spiruit of the 'black/white' scenes.'

Sheesh you've taken your prejudice into the 'spiritual' realms.

'Out of the spirit of comes an equally profound truth, so is this a ONE truth higher than all?'

Profound truth! higherm lower.... is that what is meant by a brain fart?


'In general black people see through the cultural & social weaknesses of that route, they're more street trained from experiencing duality all around them'

How can you genetralise for a whole group?

'Haven't heard of shpongle, don't know about??'
Your probrl is that you haven't been shpoggled.
Next time you pass a decent cd shop ask to hear a bit if shpongle(although I'm not sure if ready yet).


'So what?..it's a name...what is a good name 'Jack Boots'
If you were into gabba, it would be perfect!!'

Should I copyright the name?

'I should hope so to. So what ya gonna bring with ya, vinyl/cd wise?'

I won't answer that just yet, because you're not ready fo the answer(said in a non-patrinising manner),

'We could do one of those dj battles, breakbeat v trance!!'

You need to understand that greakbeat is a subset of trance.

Do you remember that song 'Tiptoe thru the tulips? I think it sung by Max Bygraves.


luv ya as always

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:20:06 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Hamzen doesn't know that I'm not a white
Message:
middle class female.
Still wanna play with ropes ham? :)

now: which part am I joking about?

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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 13:00:05 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Certainly do, and that ain't all either!!
Message:
And to music & loud, ha!
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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 11:29:21 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Hamzen has no sense of smell
Message:
I see that Ham still hasn't answered you.
I was at his place the other day and his cupboard happened to fly open. I have no idea what all those black leather belts with silver little things were. I've never seen him wear them.

Still he makes a killer of a fruit salad!

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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 12:54:49 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Selene you realize that if you are listening to
Message:
this, this, person, well how can I put it discreetly, he's so close to a form of chemikalized dementia he doesn't even know when he's drunk a cup-of-tea!! Ha, it's probably all that goa trance he blisses out on, cult replacement therapy or what!!!!

Luv ya too jed!

Oh and if you'd ever explored a bit some of my previous offers, who knows Eh??!!

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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 14:40:36 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: What did you do to your nose
Message:
To make you lose your sense of smell?

'this, this, person, well how can I put it discreetly, he's so close to a form of chemikalized dementia he doesn't even know when he's drunk a cup-of-tea!! '

Call that tea! Noone drink tea at Ham's place, it takes 3 hours to boil the water and then he say's you drunk it.

Well at least I can smell when my kitchen's on fire and don't burn out 10 pots a week.

'Ha, it's probably all that goa trance he blisses out on, cult replacement therapy or what!!!!'

I can see that haven't been attending enough rapsang. As long as you these divisions you are in illusion.

'Oh and if you'd ever explored a bit some of my previous offers, who knows Eh??!! '

That was you trying to take me out of holyname...thanks mate...better late than dead.

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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 16:35:03 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jethro and Ham
Subject: I absolutely love you both
Message:
And often haven't a clue what in hell you are talking about.
As I joked to the Aussies on AG, I know I know it's ME I am the one who can't talk good English. :)
Well I remember one time when a less than together guy staying at my house decided to make frech fries from scratch - while I was at work (the creep) and he went into the bathroom for a while.
God knows what else he was doing besides smoking pot in there but needless to say he forgot the boiling oil on the stove.
Bad Bad awful scene. I was renting from a friend at an awesome discount at the time. It was one of those old beautiful houses built in the 20's with high high cielings. We did coke and painted for a week. (course I don't do that now - paint! :) :)
nono kidding.
as for the other stuff ham... I'm always willing to look into new (ok ok sorta new) experiences. Love yoy both.
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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:36:18 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: I can dance good
Message:
Yes that was the tape. 'from now til.. ' was what she was saying.
And the guy had that rap about when you look inside yourself all
you see is yourself and you begin to realize yourself is all you need. (or something)
I played it so much I destroyed it. Tucson summers don't take kindly to us folks leavin tapes about inside oUr veHicles.
regarding the rest, you got it. nSync OK?
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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 01:00:36 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Some of us are a bit slow u know!!
Message:
No sweat, I'll sort ya another copy

http://www.azraves.org/

that gets you all the relevant stuff for arizona

rubber too?

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 03:09:02 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: sure no problem
Message:
oh yeah and thanks for the url as well
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 04:20:24 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Two questions
Message:
1) Did it really take you this long to come to that opinion, and if not, what made you linger?

2) Now you realize what a terrible place this is, do you intend to stick around, and if so, why?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 04:10:43 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: O
Subject: pond scum
Message:
You know, you premies really are ugly little people. You come around here and drink out of the same trough as everyone else but bask in the luxury of superiority.

Your own tacky guru provides no forum of any kind, and his organization ejects any disrupters from his 'events'. He deludes people, insists they accept his claims without scrutiny, and then takes their money.

You get angry like anyone else but deliver your anger in sacharrine-laced plastic flowers. There isn't one ounce of sincerity in anything you say because it's filtered through a spiritual septic-tank.

You can go on believing the tripe you spout for as long as you want but it's living proof of how full of shit your guru is, that you have to come here to do it.

Go on, have a party, make a fool of yourself. The drinks are on us.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 03:50:08 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: O
Subject: You slimy liar...nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 01:56:07 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: O/and all
Subject: My observations
Message:
Well, needless to say I thought your post was very clear and true. I don't understand the bitterness and meanness here.

To think that a screwed up girl like raina could effect so many people badly is amazing.She had problems for God's sake.Like in the head - not insane - but definitely a different mind there.(Might I say alittle 'emotionally unbalanced'.)

She was a good creative writer and I praised her when she didn't have a flaming post - hoping to encourage her to do more.
She was so defensive, even praise bothered her and made her strike out and try to insult people.

But instead of people recognizing she was a hurt little puppy - they attacked her back like children. How can you be hurt or get mad at a person who - how can I say--doesn't know any better - is not rowing with all oars.

Do you get mad at a mentally challenged street person as you walk by and they call you names for no reason?
I'm afraid the answer here from alot is 'yes'.

That is not a great situation.

Compassion,kindness,common courteousness seem to have been replaced by cleverness,anger and the all important attack-mode.

Watch and see how attacked O and I get from these simple heart- felt posts - and also - how fast we get attacked.

The engines are revving now - can you feel 'em?

Dismayed,
Elaine

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 17:23:07 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: My observations
Message:
But think, Elaine, what a great opportunity for you to practise that forgiveness!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 17:56:53 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: You betcha, cq :) NT
Message:
om
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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:24:02 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: You betcha, Elaine ;)
Message:
You'll be all the wiser for it and a deeper person.

I asked you and you never answered: What it means to be a deeper person?

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 15:37:04 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: You betcha, Elaine ;)
Message:
SB,
You have got to be kidding? You are, aren't you?

Let's see - you ask me a seemingly sincere question about meditation - I take my valuable time and answer.
No response (except that you don't understand I made a mistake and posted incorrectly - but still no comminication of any kind.)

Let's see - you call me a shitty human being.
Let's see - you beg me to drop the raina thing,saying how it's none of my business, etc - yet then yourself ask the FA for clarification.

Let's see - then plenty of other inserted 'NT' posts within conversations between others and me - that are of course not'nice'.

Let's see - you follow my posts around to interject 'NT' in support of someone that is usually disagreeing w/ me in 'not a nice' way.

It goes on ---and now - let me get this clear - now, you expect me to answer a question from you?
A question I might add is in no need of clarification - so I can only think it's another little 'trap' for me to say even one word that you can 'pounce' on.

Do you see a pattern here?

No, SB, as I said a month ago and then didn't follow thru - I think I've had enough abuse from you.

You go on your merry little way - keep following my posts and commenting with 'no name'.

But, you'll get nothing from me,SB.

We aren't communicating,so I'm done.

There are plenty of others you can post w/ here,you won't even miss me.

Elaine

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 23:12:01 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: You betcha, Elaine ;)
Message:
Elaine,

Noticing that somebody had posted that you were shitty I posted right away because I did not write that posts!!!! If you have the means and the knowledge how to, check that did not came from my PC and for the times you can see that I was at home. One thing is to say, shut up....which can be taken in many ways too. I said shup up not with anger but because I couldn't believe what you were saying. You get to be annoying with your inuendos about us, some of us, 'bad people' around here...Speak for yourself Elaine, you do not know me.... If you are going to continue preaching pranamy stuuf all over and imply in every other posts the di8fferences from being this or that, expect criticism, because this is an open forum and I can give my opinion when 'it touches home'.

Being deeper, as opposed to? The shallow that I am?? Give me a brake. You came here, and I have pretty good memory for certain things, all full of yourself, telling us how smart you were and knowledgeble, etc., etc...Who do you think you are Elaine to be talking about others of being aggressive when YOU ARE INSTIGATING AN ARGUMENT by the choice of words you make before pressing the submit button! Yes, I can't stand many of the stuff you post, and that is my opinion, but from there to call me strange names because that is your perception, you once more are OFF the subject.

You are done with NOTHING. You are a chicken. If I did not responded to 'that' post is because I chose to drop it there...I didn't get too much of your answer: I haven't miss anything in meditation yet...

What abuse strong person,Elaine? Abuse in your vocabulary can be anything, eh? Common...you need to read what you write, so to understand the reactions of some people here...There is no abuse. Are we adults or children? But there you are once more, so high I can't even reach you!! Have you ask any decent question? Do you care about the emotion some of us are feeling dealing with the lost life behind? Do you care? No. Because people like you think they are something that you are not. You are not IMO a compassionate person. You want to believe and sound like you are but your shallow thoughts show the opposite. There inside Elaine is a lot of naughty stuff and you can't hide it! Welcome to the boat. You thought you were 'traveling' in another but we ALL are in the same one. You are not better than me, even if you WANT to believe you are. Your posts are annoying to me because as I know to interpret your innuendos...

You are fake as a wood tooth.

Your human, angry, deceived, hurting sister,

SB

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 18:37:31 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Oh and SB...
Message:
I just ran into a post of your's where you say Shut up,Elaine.

So you say you didn't post You're a shitty human being ---which BTW -doesn't bother me - it's just so stupid.

So just to reaffirm my post above esp., after running into your Shut up, Elaine post. Let me say again ----Don't post to me -I am not going to read it -and I am not going to respond to you.

You don't 'get' to me --you are just too insensitive,unkind and
emotional for my liking.

There will not be true communication between us, in my opinion.

So I'm not bothering.

Over and out.
Elaine

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 20:00:36 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Oh and SB...
Message:
Hi Elaine -
I really feel the necessity to stick up for SB here. You wrote the following:
You don't 'get' to me --you are just too insensitive,unkind and emotional for my liking.

I don't think that SB would disagree that she is 'emotional' (is that a flaw, BTW?). However, I have met SB and she is NOT insensitive and unkind. Her posts to you may have been insensitive and unkind, but there is a big difference between what someone posts and what and who they are.

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 22:31:47 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Oh and SB...
Message:
I know - I'm not supposed to use a 'you' sentence.

I actually tried to soften it by saying 'for my liking'.

Didn't work,huh?

You're just like all my friends - I can't get away with anything--I mean 'alot' of things.( That was a too drastic of a word 'anything'. I'm always, I mean - 'alot' being corrected.)
__________________

I've read so many of her posts to me - and I've read twice where she says she hates premie thinking or their words 'not premies -there's a difference' ----But, I gotta tell you -when you're on the receiving end it doesn't feel that way - at all.

It's like the old - 'the right wing Christians don't hate gays -it's their actions (sins) they hate.' Yeah, right.

I do realize (I mean 'think'),that SB dislikes that part in herself that used to think as the premies in general do ---and she hasn't forgiven herself of that so she takes out that anger on others. And when she resolves that she will be a mellower person and not care so much how others think. Or even be bothered by their words - even if directed at her.

That would be my take - tho,I am not a counselor. So it may not mean anything - but, it does to me at this moment in time.

Jeez, talk about triangulating,huh? ;)

And no, emotionalism isn't necessarily a flaw ---- not being in control of your emotions - is not a great thing and needs to be worked on. Especially, when those emotions flare and one hurts another, in my opinion, needlessly and deliberately.

I happen, thank God and all the work I've done, not to be injured by her words. But, they are indeed barbs to be dealt with.

And just to say - you say you've met her - I don't know if you're close,close friends.
But, you could meet my mother, for example - you would also think she was 'nice' and 'kind' and 'sensitive'...not so.
I'm just saying - meeting someone is no indication of their troubles and how they deal them.

I'm sure like all of us SB is a good person. She hasn't been to me. And THAT is the true test. Being nice to your friends is EASY.

I'm enjoying our talks so far.
I feel like we're sitting over coffee.

Thank you,
Elaine

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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 13:27:44 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Oh and SB...
Message:
Hi Elaine -
I'm about to do major triangulating here. (SB, please forgive me, and correct anything I've said that was wrong, or feel free to cuss me out - snicker!)

I don't know SB VERY VERY well, but she did stay at my house for three days, so I have a good feeling about her. Anyway, I think that what you see as over-emotionalism is partially a result of SB trying to communicate with Nortamericana's like us. Yes, I realize I'm assuming that you're a Nortamericana, but you do sound like one (like me, in other words.)

SB and I had a very interesting conversation about showing anger while she was visiting. In my family (German/Swedish descent), showing ANY anger overtly was forbidden and shocking. A person expressing overt anger (usually me!) was ostracized and considered scary and volatile. We were almost trained to be passive-aggressive and covertly hostile. My sister-in-law's family is Italian/Polish, and they yell at each other all the time, but it's not any big deal to them. They also express a lot of love and affection for each other too - very demonstrative in both ways (which my family was NOT). SB said she could relate far more to the expressive style of relating, and I understand this - she wasn't brought up to not express emotions.

Also, SB is a recent ex - quite recent. The conversation between SB and Hal below is quite illuminating (good posts by both of them), and to my mind, really illustrates the recent ex frame of mind.

Sort of OT - re meeting your mother - my sister and I always make jokes about how every one of our friends thinks our mother is wonderful. Actually, she can be wonderful: very supportive, understanding, and accepting - as long as you are not related to her! So I do understand that part.

Anyway, I don't care if you and SB ever get along. But she is my friend, and thus I do stick up for her when I feel that she's being misunderstood. I am not saying her posts to you have been nice - in fact, they have been barbs, as you said - but my feeling lately is that she really is trying to dialogue with you (although that may have become 'was'...)

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 15:10:36 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Oh and SB...
Message:
And I'm half Italian and half German...talking about blood...

I will answer later because I have few things to do now but I wanted to say that it's fine with me if you write. It happens to me sometimes that I 'must' say something, when I read something that touches home. I want to write later about you writing about me. Now.

My interactions with Elaine were just questions at first, and then Elaine began to imply in many posts that some people here are mean, etc. I got mad, because she thinks most of the time that she is so good and proper and she doesn't realize that she bothering many of us posting what she posts. Shut up Elaine, I said...Can she read the tone how I wrote? Did she asked how I wrote it? It had no meanness! It ment: I don't aggre, short, not too much time to write but wanting to say something. I want Elaine to stop saying that people here are mean, or down, and 'they' are deep. That will make me very happy. Yes there is right to fee speech, but then, if she does it deliberately, over and over, I'll react, until I get bored, until I have no more need to write to Elaine. Don't like unjustice...

Write to you later. I owe you a email. ;)

love,

Silvia

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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 15:02:45 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Hi Katie
Message:
Kaie,
Going off for the day and checked in...
I didn't think I'd get such a nice post from you. I was afraid you'd ignore me because I was so 'bad' due to triangulating.

I did feel like I was having coffee with you - how stupid of me - on a forum to think I'm just talking to you.

I'm of Swedish/Czeck/French/English background pretty much exactly. Absolutely no affection - plenty of alcohol and incest -(grandfather - looked like Max Von Sydow/Swede).
So much yelling from my mother. Which I think affected me to communicate nicely. She was also bigoted and a snob -which in turn created in me tolerance.

I don't know about SB and won't talk about her anymore. I find no excuse - family,leaving Kn whatever for being unkind to people -ANYONE - North Americans - or the mean check out lady at the market or the mechanic that screws up your car -- There just is no excuse for it.Friend or foe.

I am sorry I'm so rigid on that - there are some things I take a strong stand on. So, I guess I'm not sorry at all.

I waffle on alot, but there are just some things I don't.

Hope that doesn't turn you off. Take care and TY for posting back.

Elaine

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 23:31:52 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Oh and SB...
Message:
Elaine:

What is being nice to people? Lying to them? I care about you because you are a victim also(even if you don't realize that)of what you have learned. I told you at the begining when you began posting: I dislike some of your ideas and I don't have nothing personal about you. Think again. Is that hard to get? Your ideas, not you! I hate some ideas not Elaine. I have nothing personal, how can I have it? You may think that you come across as a strong sincere honest person and others maybe see something else. I like being called in my shit...What is learning? Getting defensive and attacking people personally? Obviously, it takes a big person to take that and you are crying all over the place, about 'some insensitive people' around here...Bias against me...Bought Raina's rich arguments, Elaine? Deeper as opposed to what Elaine? But you can't answer...I say it for you: Deeper as opposed to SB, for example...challenge me Elaine. Say or ask anything you want...you wouldn't do it!

You like to go around spreading superficiality and big words putting others down too...I say is naughty, but I wouldn't say you are a shitty person, never! I did not say that and explained it in a thread down, I believe...My word is nothing for you! There goes your trust in people. Do it, someway, I urge you to find out who wrote it, because it wasn't me. I have short time left, I must finish my garden before the light goes because I have people coming for a party in my home...but I would like an answer to me caqlling you shitty...Advice: When in doubt, shut up! You have no evidence that I posted that post Elaine!!

For the rest, you have the right to enjoy your beliefs but if you discuss the in the forum, not email, is there to share and expect reactions. If not, don't right that stuff that you know is going to hurt others. Sensitivity is not your strenght, eh? You expect it for you, but screw the rest, eh? Watch your words and I won't write to you ever and if you do say something, hey, it's an invitation.

Take care,

SB

your implying .

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:56:26 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: my feelings about Raina and the forum
Message:
Hi Elaine -
I would guess that I am one of the people who probably had the most conversations with Raina - or at least the most conversations where we tried to understand each other. I felt that we were getting to the point where we liked each other and were starting to understand each other a little (of course, 'understanding' and being able to communicate with another person is something that takes a very long time, especially on the forum!)

Anyway, I am sad that Raina got blocked, and I wish she hadn't been - personally. I haven't been posting much lately because I feel bad about the whole incident, but I don't want to take sides either. I wish she was still on the forum - but that's only because she and I seemed to get along OK. I miss her, and I would like to continue our conversation, but she didn't like e-mail and seemed only wanted to converse here on Forum V.

However, I also know that she was really bothering a lot of people here, and I am not just talking about the annoying type of bothering (although that happened as well), I'm talking about making people feel really bad. People often don't express those feelings of hurt here because it is a public place - they tend to just not talk about them or express them as anger. (Yes, I know that Raina may have done this as well - however, that doesn't mean that it was OK for her to do it to others).

I really object to your characterizations of Raina as 'a screwed up girl', 'emotionally unbalanced', and a 'hurt little puppy', and someone who 'doesn't know any better'. You even compared her to a 'mentally challenged street person'. These characterizations are condescending and insulting, and frankly, I think they are judgemental, and DO NOT apply to Raina.

I am guessing that Raina was hurting - only because most of the people here are hurting in some way (including me), although this may not always be reflected in their posts. In your post, and in previous posts, you seem to characterize Raina as a 'hurt child' and the rest of the people here as 'adults'. This is NOT a true characterization. There are a lot of people here who are partly 'hurt children', as a direct result of being involved with Maharaji. And, as you pointed out, 'hurt children' tend to lash out in anger.

You have never left Maharaji's organization completely, although you seem to have distanced yourself from it, and perhaps you were never ever as involved in it as many of the people here were. It is VERY hard for people to leave, especially if they do it suddenly, as many of the people here have, and especially if they were involved for a long time (20-25 years). Can you imagine giving up a belief system that you've had for 25 years? I always compare it to getting a divorce after a long marriage - I am sure you know how crazy and emotional some people feel and act after getting a divorce. And, for many, this is like getting a divorce from God!

I know that I was really upset, emotional, and acted crazy for about a year after I left Maharaji - and I was only a premie for five years. I had bought the 'Lord of the Universe' belief system hook, line, and sinker, and it was very hard (and scary) for me to extricate myself from it. I was very fortunate in that I shared a house with two other ex-premies, and we allowed each other to act crazy, and gave each other support. It was quite difficult to figure out how we were going to re-enter the 'normal' world without the support of being premies who knew that they had THE KNOWLEDGE. We did a lot of silly and weird stuff - were afraid to go out of the house for days, drove around until late at night listening to music tapes, made up our own language and acted like kids, threw tantrums, etc.

Also, since Brian and I have been running the ex-premie.org site, we have come into contact with a lot of recent exes - some of who became exes because of the site or the forum. Most of the people were in their forties, had kids, responsible jobs, and generally were considered fully functional adults. Yet upon leaving, they went through an incredible amount of grief, anger, and pain.

I don't know how many people Brian has called personally because they posted desperate-sounding messages on the forum, or how many e-mails I've answered from people whose lives were in turmoil because of their decision to leave Maharaji. Many of these people had NO friends except those in the premie community, and immediately lost all these friends, and were treated like pariahs or crazy people. Some of them were even married to practicing premies, or had ex-spouses, lovers, bosses, or family members who were premies - an extremely difficult situation.

I know that your post probably was 'heart-felt', but I also thought that it was very condescending to Raina (I am guessing that that is why she got upset when you 'praised her'), and, in my opinion, not sufficiently compassionate to the OTHER people on here who are hurting. Even though they may not come out and say it, they ARE hurting - and if you could see this in Raina's posts, I am hoping you can see it in other people's posts as well.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 17:21:05 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: my feelings about Raina and the forum
Message:
Katie,
Well, as usual you took the time to post a very long and well thought out response.

I don't know how you find the time or have the patience. I always was amazed at the time you took w/ r - even when she would come back at you and be nasty in some way.

I don't think of r as the street person,BTW.

Except now that I think of it - the irrational attacks - yes - I guess I do - attacks out of nowhere - it felt like, anyway.

But, not mentally challenged anyway.

You apparently knew r like no one here seemed to. I did not read all your correspondences.

I really am sorry - 'emotionally unbalanced' to ME - is a person that **over-reacts and then attacks - hurting people - unproportionally to the initial contact.** That sounds official - but I'm sure it says something different in the DSM V or is it IV.

I'm sorry you really object. But, at least maybe you understand my definition better. And may I say - I have been BIG time emotionally unbalanced and screwed up - and a hurt,little puppy -PLENTY in my life. Oh,brother.
I certainly didn't mean to be condescending - but written and not knowing me -I can see how it may read that way.

Thank you for your post,(I'm flattered you took the time - you seem like a very nice person.)

Elaine

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 19:41:12 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: my feelings about Raina and the forum
Message:
Hi Elaine -
I knew I was stretching it when I said you compared Raina to the street person, because you didn't really DO that. It was implied, I felt, but could have been taken either way. Anyway, apology accepted (by me, anyway). I have written a lot of things here on the spur of the moment that I wanted to take back later. Not that I'm saying that's how you feel, but I understand being sorry for a post and TRYING to apologize, but the darn thing is still there in black and white for perpetuity.

The reason I wrote so much to Raina is because I felt some kind of kinship with her. I felt that we were a lot alike in some ways, although VERY different in others. I also felt that she had something to say - and I wanted to find out what that was. I have written a lot to many people on here that post controversial things, but usually have given up when I realize that we are not really communicating at all. However, in Raina's case, I felt that we WERE at least starting to communicate. (Note that all of this is my feelings - Raina might feel completely differently).

Also, she never really delivered the coup de grace insult or innuendo to me that she did to others, such as SB or Stonor (and maybe you?). I can understand why they and others got either quite angry or tried to avoid Raina completely. It was more of a case of Raina and I being exasperated with each other, I think - maybe that's why we could continue to talk.

Re me being a nice person - I'm not, really. I have changed a lot since I started posting on the forum. I used to be so 'nice' to everyone on the forum that reading my older posts from the archives makes me sick (and probably made a lot of other people sick at the time...). I went through a bad experience about a year and half ago where I realized, one after the other, that two people had been deliberately deceiving me. One was someone from the forum, and one was my ex-husband. Of course it was a FAR worse experience with my ex-husband, because he was someone I really trusted completely. But I also trusted this person from the forum, and it hurt very much to think that they would assume that I could be lied to because I was so 'nice', and because I generally try and take people at face value. Anyway, since then I've become more cynical, more realistic, and far less 'nice'. I think I'm a better person though, and I still do trust people - I'm just more discriminating. (I also still take people at face value, but only at first!)

I hope you read what I wrote about recent exes. I know there are a lot of anger, insults, and general flak aimed at premies who post here. Sometimes this is richly deserved (for example, premies who post that they think ex-premies are lying about being abused by Jagdeo), but sometimes not. A lot of people here are VERY angry at Maharaji - and I think Maharaji DESERVES this anger too. But since Maharaji doesn't post here, premies get a lot of this Maharaji-directed anger. It's just a hazard of premies posting here - as I'm sure you've experienced.

I'm guessing that a lot of ex-premies here are also angry at premies - either specific premies or at some kind of general premie attitude. But I think that M probably gets (and SHOULD get) the lion's share of the anger. (I am sure HE would prefer to blame it all on the premies - he's such a Teflon wannabe! When I was a premie.I was programmed to believe that everything that went wrong was 'the premies' fault' - including MY fault, if I didn't have experiences in meditation, etc.)

Anyway, I did read your post below about gurus in general, and that you were thinking about whether you needed/wanted a guru in particular. I thought it was a good post.

Take care, Elaine -
Katie

P.S. re long responses - I am a reasonably fast typist and do a lot of writing for my job - thus not that hard.

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 04:23:04 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: my feelings about Raina and the forum
Message:
I wish I could type fast too. Katie I do enjoy reading your posts. It's a shame you don't type more. I like what you've said about Raina. Both you and Elaine are genuinely compassionate.
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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 16:24:38 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Keith about compassion
Message:
Keith,

You know - this compassion thing.

Just to start. I have alot of people in my life that tell me what a nice person I am. ( I get sick of it)
Why?
Only because - I do a simply 'normal' thing - that others perceive as not just 'nice' - but something extra-ordinary.
That makes me alittle sad at times. The deed was really not such a big deal ---I tell people -I'm not really so nice ---it's just that you haven't been around people that do the same thing ---so I stand out to you. ( And that's sad to me.)

Compassion for raina - perfect example - is it really compassion - - to simply see?

Others here I think got some 'buttons pushed' ---or in other words got mad when she was rude,etc.
But, if one can see raina and not get 'triggered' and consumed with emotion - you understand.

Then, there's no room for forgiveness or compassion ---because nothing was harmed - a tornado on the empty plains -so to speak.

Do you get my drift?

So I don't see myself as necessarily compassionate - - just didn't get so upset by her and thus could see her unclouded by emotion.

And that does not always happen - for sure. I'm working on it.
Ever see 'To Kill a Mockingbird' - -that Gregory Peck role was such an inspiration.
:)

Elaine

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:35:26 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: my feelings
Message:
Katie,
Now that you brought it up - could you tell me what r said to Stonor - I missed it and it may be a reason why Stonor was 'hurt' by me - I actually don't know the coupe de grace she said to SB - but, I don't need that info.

Also, I was thinking today - why would Katie, think my statements were condescending about r being emot. unbal, and all -dah - Katie doesn't KNOW me.

I am surrounded by psycho therapists constantly -every friend and the husbands are psychiatrists - I AM SURROUNDED. :)

So when I make a statement - she's a hurt puppy or unstable or whatever - I actually have no judgement about it ----
I'm not saying what others might be saying like -He's sick - he needs therapy,BAD. With a judgemental tone - I don't know how to write what I mean.

I'm saying it like they have a boo-boo and it needs some attention.Just fact. We all have boo-boos - we all have been so hurt - oh brother -don't get me started.
Anyway - I'm not saying it so well -but, it's more intellectual or something - an observation - mainly because I've been there - I recognize it. So, just wanted to say that --tho I may not have done a good job.
Anyway,
Elaine

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 13:49:06 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: my feelings
Message:
Hi Elaine -
What you said about Raina - it's OK. I guess you know now how it sounded to other people - one of the pitfalls of trying to communicate in this way. As I'm sure you're aware, one of the standard insults on this forum is to tell someone to 'go to therapy' or 'you're crazy' (variations: 'take your meds', 'Get on Prozac', etc..) This almost always comes from people who are not in therapy and not on meds.

And I cannot imagine being surrounded by therapists...holy cow! I guess you would get a distorted image of 'normal' communication. I have liked most of my therapists, really liked two of them, had some total unethical duds - but anyway, can't picture being married to one!

Re Stonor - I have no idea what the two of you fought about. And I don't want to bring up what Raina said, for two reasons. First, I have a tendency to 'triangulate', and I'm trying my best to stop (with help from my friends on this forum.) Second, it was very hurtful and doesn't bear repetition.

Anyway, in general, sometimes on this forum people get really angry at one another for stuff in posts, or for the general tone of posts that one person makes or something. I suspect that these people would probably get along fine in the 'real world', and might even like each other. This method of communication is so limited, and because it really only shows a few sides of each person, there are bound to be misunderstandings. I have met quite a few of the people who post here in real life, and seeing the WHOLE person makes a big difference. (Even e-mailing helps you know a person better).

I hate it when someone on the forum is angry at me or seems to dislike me for a reason I think is untrue or a big misunderstanding. I always want to work it out, but I have found that many times it is just futile, and I just have to let it be, despite the fact that it bothers me a lot. Thus I am also working - fairly successfully - on my 'people-pleasing' tendencies. This forum has REALLY helped with that, because there are people here who are just not going to like me - or you - (or rather our on-line personalities) no matter what.

Well, end of lecture - hope it wasn't too pedantic. Just my observations really.

Have a good day - and take care -
Katie

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 15:40:40 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: my feelings
Message:
Thanks - Roger and out.:)
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 14:21:30 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: My observations
Message:
Elaine,

after replying to you yesterday I have been reading a few of your posts to get a better idea about you.

At first you seem like a fair minded individual but I now I am beginning to wonder what's up.

You are onto a crusade about this Raina girl as though she were the soul reason for the construction of this website. You describe her as a hurt little puppy and that a screwed up girl who is not rowing with all oars. Well I imagine Raina can still read the forum, she just can't post here to tell you what she thinks of you.

There is ample room for free speech Elaine, you know that Raina can talk to you all she wants over on AG. Give it up.

You asked me if I argue with Jehova's Witnesses the other day. All I can say is that when I was practising K I used to talk with them on the doorstep in the hope that I could shed a little of M's wisdom on them. When I stopped practising K I would make a polite excuse so I wouldn't have to talk to them but now that I have realised the K I just tell them to fuck off like I should have all those years ago.

I wouldn't freak if a mental person was shouting at me in the street but I would try to get away from them. If they perused me along the way I would begin to get annoyed and ask them to leave me alone and so on until I needed help from a cop or whatever. I would not try to offer them counselling.

Elaine, you say Watch and see how attacked O and I get from these simple heart- felt posts - and also - how fast we get attacked.. Have you got a persecution complex Elaine? You sound like you want somebody to slap you in the face with a wet fish.

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 03:04:56 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: TRiple ROFL!!!
Message:
Sorry Elaine, but the end was too funny! Me victim.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 14:48:56 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Charlie
Message:
Hi Charlie,
That is so funny - I forgot about AG.
Actually, I don't know why you would say I'm on a crusade about raina - it's so much more pleasant now that she's not posting.

I was just wondering how she was doing - again - sheesh. So much misunderstanding here.

Now, see, I talk to JW's like I do all solicitors (on phone ,etc.) with a 'No thank,have a nice day, tho - and please take me off your list.' But, others here I get the sense would also say 'fuck off'. I don't understand the mentality that doesn't understand that for example a phone solicitor is probably in a wheel chair - or a JW is doing what they think is helping people.So let them do their thing and say bye-bye as they turn away.

Kindness is a beautiful thing and very needed in this world.

Thanks for posting back.

Elaine


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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 04:08:39 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Elaine, I have to say this:
Message:
I did not write the post bellow. I don't think you are shitty: I know where you are coming from. I have certain empathy for you because it seems you mean good, but, not that matters to you what SB says, IMO, you are so off, often, and you are not even aware of it. Well, sometimes you recognized it. Incorrect statements...but I wouldn't say something like that to you. Honest! I wanted to say this to calrify that it wasn't me. Ok?
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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 15:44:20 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: So that there's no mistake post as SB always NT
Message:
RTY
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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 00:11:58 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: So that there's no mistake post as SB always NT
Message:
You made the mistake assuming it was me...I wrote that post denying me writting it because I knew that YOU quickly would think I did. I have special powers too...LOL...and you did just that: You accused me in a post of writting it. Jumping into conclussions is not a good thing around here or at any place, isn't? YOU DO NOT ASSUME and CONCLUDE IF YOU ARE NOT SURE. That is better...

SB, the bad oppinionated 'girl' (NOT) of F5

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 13:52:18 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: I once thought that premies...................
Message:
provided a little variety and entertaining interaction here. I had a feeling of compassion for you being still duped as I once was(not so long ago).

Now I just wish you'd piss off and leave us alone. I can't see any point in you lot being allowed to stay here as you are merely using this site for pro M propoganda. I think there should be a limit to the kindness and tolerance expressed to premies here and a limit to the amount of posts made in a pro Knowledge vein.

Sick of you all
Hal

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 04:35:49 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: I once thought that premies...................
Message:
Thanks Hal...I felt like it was me saying it!
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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:55:34 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Hi SB
Message:
I seem to be changing a lot in my attitude to premies. I'm getting rather intolerant of their inability to honestly look at what they are involved in. I definitely understand how entrenched those old belief systems are.

To me now though, premie is just a silly word and Mahaha is a pathetic joke.

Hope you are still well,

Best wishes,
Hal

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 23:44:40 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Hi Hal!!
Message:
I feel the same way and it feels strange, because when I began to post here I wasn't like I'm today either...I have lost patience with the way, THE WAY, premies want to make themselves heard. I am all to support new exes, but the premies, so full of themeselves...Yuck.

We have about the same time leaving the cult and I feel like saying this, because you'll understand it: The emotions change all the time and sometimes are not healthy or nice, but isn't MUCH better now??? I'm so glad I'm out!! So, so glad, and I thanks to all the people here because F5 did it! Open my eyes to think again...Thanks. yes, I'm doing good, enjoying the changes. It feels so good to be free from all.

You are OK. All is normal. The shit has to come out to make room for the new person!

Love,

SB

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 15:28:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: I can barely remember thinking otherwise
Message:
Hi guys,

I know it's even hard for me to believe but naturally I didn't always have so little patience for premie waffle. One day I was just one of them, the next day I was one of them who voiced a few doubts. The next day I was one of them who said 'hey, let's talk about this'. Then THIS happened! Oh no!

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 23:53:06 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Fighting premies ideas is fighting Lard
Message:
to me...that is where the anger comes from?

Hey, you...are you going to forgive me, ever?

Let me say thanks directly!! Your big voice caught my attention and your posts were very important to re-open my head when I began reading F5...I felt like saying this to you. You receive a lot of crap but your contribution is appreciated by me...I even understand the other part...

Love,

SB

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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 00:34:29 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Forgive for what?
Message:
Thanks for that but yes, SB, you're forgiven. I don't know what you're referring to but yes, you're forgiven.

Now can I go back to watching tv?

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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 03:55:40 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: OK
Message:
I thought that you were mad at me for what happened with Gerry...I was not all there those days...I broke a promise I made to you.

Chau,

SB

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 14:53:43 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: I once thought that premies...................
Message:
Hal,
Really, that's how you feel that I'm promoting K?

I don't know maybe you haven't read some of my posts - I don't even promote K to people who inquire of me about my meditation - I always steer them to something else - if you haven't read that from me.

All in all - I don't remember you being harsh with me in the past - thank you,BTW.

Elaine

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 15:11:38 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Not to be taken personally Elaine.....
Message:
I still like you. I'm not feeling like Mr Niceguy lately!
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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 23:17:17 (GMT)
From: gorgeous
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Wish you all the best
Message:
I feel a kinship. I am Mr. Doubt. But there has to be something beautiful I can focus on, other than the beautifully put slams.

Love you all.

G.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:16:02 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Not to be taken personally Elaine.....
Message:
Hal,
I've noticed -I get that way too. I kinda like the new you. You're really expressing!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:18:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: What about my challenge, Elaine? (nt)
Message:
ttttt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:19:23 (GMT)
From: And if you won't read my
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: posts, I'll repeat it in subject lines (nt)
Message:
bbbbb
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:20:10 (GMT)
From: You call yourself 'reason
Email: None
To: And if you won't read my
Subject: able'? Find one person outside (nt)
Message:
rrrrr
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:21:32 (GMT)
From: the premie world who you
Email: None
To: You call yourself 'reason
Subject: can show these sites to, including (nt)
Message:
ffffff
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:22:41 (GMT)
From: the Quotes, Journeys, his
Email: None
To: the premie world who you
Subject: torical background stuff AND ELK (nt)
Message:
rrrr
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:23:32 (GMT)
From: who will agree that it's
Email: None
To: the Quotes, Journeys, his
Subject: 'reasonable' to follow Maharaji (nt)
Message:
hhhhhh
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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:46:07 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: above
Subject: Please...
Message:
...submit your posts under a single title, otherwise we'll delete them.

Forum Administrator

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 15:17:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: Hey, what about Free Speech? OR Speach? (nt)
Message:
hhh
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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 18:45:53 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Well at least yours weren't deleted like mine were
Message:
Just because I told gwh to fuck off! I mean if we can't swear at premies or wannabe preachers any more, where's the fun? Sheeesh! It's not like that's my sole form of expression is it?
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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 00:30:16 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Are you serious? You got censored for swearing?
Message:
Oh no, Rob's civil liberties on the forum now become the new cause celebre. Who'd have thought? Well, I'm into it. Did they really do that to you? No reason but the fact that you swore? That's not how I thought things were supposed to be. Maybe they're breaking in a new FA trained on ELK or something.
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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 04:10:54 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yup, my First Amendment rights have been violated
Message:
Late last night I read the new gwh thread 'Knowledge Realized'. Feeling somewhat unruly and tired of all this current preaching by premies and quasi-premies, I simply put 'Fuck off gwh nt' in the subject. Keith dutifully responded with a 'fuck you too nt' and I wrote a simple parody of Keiths boring diatribe below that.

Well I log on today, and there they were, gone! Oh well, it's no big deal, but I think I would have appreciated a word of explanation, even chastisement, so I would know which rule # I had broken.

Is it me Jim or does it seem unusually premie/preacher tolerant these days? Are the FA's trying to clean up the act pending a big fight with Mssrs Sue, Grabbit & Run, the guru's law firm?

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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 04:35:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Hard to say, Rob, I'm only a cult leader
Message:
I'm not actually an FA, you know. No, it beats me. I feel violated just listening to your story. I can't imagine how you must feel.

No, on a slightly serious note, I WOULD want to know why they did that. Maybe there's a new regime or something. But this is a very, very sad day for subject lines with 'fuck you' in them, I can tell you that.

And 'premie-tolerant'? I should hope not...

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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 04:55:55 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I think you need to have a chat with O
Message:
But anyway...

I think it's probably Roger eDrek in the driving seat!!

Hey, why don't you throw out a few choice ones and see what they do!! At least that will show if it is discriminatory!

It's probably about me...:)

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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 05:05:05 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Okay, testing, testing ...Fuck you, Rob! (nt)
Message:
nnnn
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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 05:10:24 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: P.S.
Message:
Don't dis Roger. He's a righteous ex hero, now isn't he? Did he get quite into playing 'Where's Bob?' Maybe. Does it matter now? No, I don't think so. Was he even right about some of his guesses? Who cares?

My thoughts anyway.......

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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 05:20:05 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Strength through unity, huh?
Message:
Well I guess you're right. Old habits die hard. I think he and I would get on just fine in the real world. I've a soft spot for humorists. I'll be sure to visit him in jail:)
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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 05:22:24 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Just don't miss the hanging (nt)
Message:
ggg
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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 05:08:22 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oy! Not me, THEM. You fucker!!!! nt
Message:
fu
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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 05:15:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Oh, sorry.... Fuck you, premie trolls! (nt)
Message:
jjjj
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:46:38 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Goddamn it you're cute. nt
Message:
Goddamn it you're cute.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 23:30:47 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Sholom Elaine
Message:
I stand amongst the wildness
under a forest canopy of Gums, Murtles and ferns
and feel too the creatures around me,
the bats, owls and eagles
and I feel us all dying
one by one
and returning to the sacred Soil
from which life springs again eternal,
and what was soft will be made hard again;)
Harry
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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:39:42 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: I like the hard part,Harry,keep it up NT
Message:
ny
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 23:34:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: O my God! That is SOOO beautiful! O my God! (nt)
Message:
ffffff
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:59:23 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Goddamn it you're cute
Message:
Jim,
I'm getting to the point where I'm questioning the whole Indian/Guru 'THING'.

I've talked w/ my 'aspirant contact' friend telling her that regardless of the ex-premie site there are alot of sites about the Guru Phenomenon.
In fact, I spoke w/ a close non-premie friend yesterday about it.
She was telling me about her neighbor/employer that's a honcho for Landmark/est - so we got on the whole subject of cults. (Her boss proselytizes constantly.I told her it was typical enthusiastic cult behavior.)

In other words -to premies and non-premies I am expressing my doubt in the need of a 'guru' at all.It is a fascinating subject.

So I don't think I need to take your challenge.
Also -if and when I ever become a former premie - I still will never respect your pit-bull personality. We will never have anything in common.
You are a mean person. I don't like mean people.

You are also smart and clever and funny. But, the meanness over shadows all that.

Back to the status quo- Bye.Elaine

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 15:48:57 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: So now I take the time to ans. Jim...
Message:
for the first time in awhile and it goes unnoticed - Fine.

I can play the door slamming game -quite well.

Bye,Jim

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 18:40:05 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Noticed you posted to me below -----
Message:
Guess what - when I say bye ---I mean bye.
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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 04:07:55 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: How old are you? 12?
Message:
Elaine, read what you write!!! You are not listening...

Guess what - when I say bye ---I mean bye.

Whow, you really are beginig to show who you really are...That much for compassion and understanding. Jim is such a bad boy, eh? And you? What are you Elaine, posting that your friends think you are 'such a good person'...How many friends do you have? Bring them here to tell us about you, when they visit you. You spend a lot of time here, so I guess ALL of them must be there with you, everyday, so tell one of them to post here...Just a joke...You are something else...I say this because I have good memory and remember much of your crap about your superiority, opposed to us, poor little weak souls. You lost!

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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 00:16:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Now that's not evasive, is it, Elaine?
Message:
Let em get this straight. You finally reply to me and then get pissed off that I don't respond quickly enough. So I DO respond and you say 'forget it'. Couldn't have anything to do with my question, could it? No, of course not.
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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 16:08:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: SOOORyy!
Message:
Okay, you said you were reasonable and I challenged you to find one person other than a premie who'd ever agree that there was anything reasonable about following Maharaji. You answered obliquely by saying that you were starting to question the whole 'Indian guru thing' and by that I infer that you concede that following Maharaji would only be reasonable in the mind of a premie.

Okay, good. Now what? How about this. If Maharaji's not 'necessary' what do you think of him saying he is? Is he a good man or not?

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Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 09:33:45 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A true reflection
Message:
Jim said'...I challenged you to find one person other than a premie who'd ever agree that there was anything reasonable about following Maharaji'

I have noticed you offer this challenge to almost every premie who has posted on this forum. I don't think one has taken up the challenge.

Do you think they are embarrassed about something?(rhetorical question).

Jethro

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 11:53:50 (GMT)
From: Shut up Elaine
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: SB begs you! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 07:35:10 (GMT)
From: keith
Email: None
To: Elaine and O
Subject: My observations
Message:
In total agreement with both of you, but also with Powerman's observations in so far as Maharaji's 'loving,caring' enviroment is not so genuine. But then again, O did accept that there are quirks and differences there too. One thing this place really lacks is a mature and civil way of communicating. Angry little children who inhabit adult bodies but seemingly haven't grown up. Perhaps there should be a monthly award for the rudest,most insensitive, callous, poster. Extra points for the number of f words. Elaine I especially agree with what you said about Raina.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 13:04:13 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: keith
Subject: My observations
Message:
Exes attack premies or people's ideas, not them personally. Premies ideas are naughty and wrong and for that they deserve to be attacked or answered. And if you don't like it, SCRAM!! Sweet, like maharaji saID it. 'If you like it, fine, if you don't like it, walk!! I have the video'...LOL

lOOK HOW THE 'MASTER' TALKS ABOUT PEOPLE....Oh, forgot that he can be naughty because he is 'THE MASTER': BULLSHIT!!

KEEP ACCOMODATING ALL TO FIT YOUR STORY....YOUR LIFE WILL PASS BY, YOU FOOL!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 14:03:32 (GMT)
From: (Sir) David
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: My observations
Message:
'KEEP ACCOMODATING ALL TO FIT YOUR STORY....YOUR LIFE WILL PASS BY, YOU FOOL'

That's not very nice of you to write that to Keith, is it SB. It illustrates what this forum has become - a rather silly place full of backbiting. Instead, people should go to The ANYTHING GOES Forum which is for cool people who don't want to bite each other's heads off at every available opportunity.

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 03:58:25 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: (Sir) David
Subject: My observations: You are right
Message:
Is not necesary but for some maybe is, at that particular moment, and I'm sure that you sometime felt after pressing submit that you shouldn't have done it, right? I feel that too...But he throws so many roses I couldnt resist them. I have read only few of his posts. What is in the others?...Impossible to read them all...

AG sounds good, but I need to hear more what goes on here...and there is so much 'free' time. My maid called sick so I have to go do the dishes...

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 09:34:47 (GMT)
From: (Sir) David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: SB
Subject: My observations: You are right
Message:
SB; Yes, my servants are on holiday at the moment, so I have to wash and dress all by myself. Of course, I did have my tongue pushed firmly into my cheek when I was admonishing you. You are always welcome at The ANYTHING GOES Forum.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 14:58:04 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: (Sir) David
Subject: My observations
Message:
Apologies Sir David, as you know I have a great deal of respect for your work, but opening a post to read a bit and then find out it's pornographic is not my idea of an alternative to FV. Each to his own, and I'll spare those into it my comments on it.

Stonor

and I do agree that raina, among others, should have been handled differently, but a LONG time ago.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 14:57:17 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: (Sir) David
Subject: Sir Dave
Message:
You're posts are like bulletin boards on the highway of life.:)
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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 10:23:31 (GMT)
From: (Sir) David
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Sir Dave
Message:
Well I think that's a compliment. Thanks. I continue to read yours with interest, too. Please don't let criticism prevent you from airing your views. I have agreed with many of them.
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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 15:51:57 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: (Sir) David
Subject: Sir Dave,you did?
Message:
I never knew that.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 04:07:20 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: I wish raina were here...
Message:
to rip you a new asshole, Elaine.

You'd NEVER say what you just did if she were.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 15:09:35 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: You've never been more right...
Message:
She scared me. Still does.I'm never checking out AG now!!!

I'm not kiddin'.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 02:59:27 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Elaine, O...
Message:
Most of the posts in this forum fit your description. When someone (like raina) gets abusive and paranoid, or when a premie posts here (in an obviously hostile forum), the abusive posts fly.

But when someone posts a thoughtful (even a contrarian) idea, it seems to me that the exes here are pretty careful about responding in a reasonable manner. (With one or two exceptions)

Compare this to most other online forums.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 07:41:02 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Elaine, O...
Message:
Not my experience Gregg. Problem is the stereotyping that goes on. Once a person has been boxed, labled and sorted that's it. Very immature. And defensive-aggressive. And hinting at an inner insecurity behing all the bravado which is more like 'mob rule' than reasonable responsefulness.Imo.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 11:58:38 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: What do YOU expect?
Message:
keith,

What would be 'appropiate' to you? Do you want people to please you and go against their reasoning? Who is being inmature? LOL

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 02:46:27 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: My observations
Message:
But instead of people recognizing she was a hurt little puppy - they attacked her back like children. How can you be hurt or get mad at a person who - how can I say--doesn't know any better - is not rowing with all oars.

How phony you are. Hurt little puppy, indeed. You're such a sympathetic little soul, aren't you? I think you are a nice person, Elaine, but sometimes I think you try too hard to be the good guy, the one who's superior to the rest of us because you've got such a sympathetic heart, while the rest of us are a bunch of rabid dogs. Ever hear of passive aggression, Elaine? You reek of it.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 15:06:09 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: My observationsJerry
Message:
Jesus,Jerry, I've been in so much therapy. Trust me, I'm not being passive aggressive here. I really am a nice person - I'd like to think 'civil and mature' and reasonable.

When I'm not, I try not to post. There are exceptions tho, as you know. This place can get to me.

I don't even want to talk about the raina diagnosis. I'm not consumed like others (SB) thinks.

Why on earth bec someone ( not necessarily me) has a kind heart and expresses it - would you go directly to 'superior to the rest of us'.
My therapist would never let me get away with a comment like that.

Elaine

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 15:33:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: What you really are is superficial, Elaine
Message:
Trust me, I'm not being passive aggressive here. I really am a nice person - I'd like to think 'civil and mature' and reasonable.

There's no reason to trust you, Elaine because you're very, very far from reasonable. And, really, you don't have to take my word for it. Do an experiment. Go, get one of your friends who know nothing about Maharaji and let him read the quotes page on JM's site. Then let him read the Journey's section. Then show him Maharaji's own web site and also ELK. Then show him the open letter to Maharaji. Then show him Maharaji's response (joke!).

There is no way in the world that your outside friend would find it anywhere NEAR reasonable for you to countenance this guy. No, Elaine it's just you and your fellow premies -- the same ones you continually claim you're so superior to -- who'd ever hold that opinion. That's because you're in a cult. There's nothing reasonable about following Maharaji. The whole world would agree and that's why Maharaji hides as he does.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 07:46:44 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: My observations
Message:
Damn Jerry, is there some merit in being nasty? Is only nastiness genuine? Is real caring for others some airy fairy new age insincere ulterior motivated bull dust cow poo? I most strongly disagree with your above sentiments. Are all premies for that matter bliss ninnies? Or unable to love anyone besides their Lord of the Universe? I think not. Is Jerry defined by my thoughts and words. I think not. Do you really know Elaine? Got her all worked out? I think not!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 11:08:13 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Are you blind?
Message:
Keith,

Elaine's post was one of passive aggression. Some people have a way of sounding sincere and sweet, but their undertones are aggressive, out of sync with the way they're trying to get across. I find this to be frequently the case with premies. Very often, I just find myself seething at their claims to be understanding and kindly, while we exes are a pack of wolves. It's a copout, and an avoidance of the truth.

Raina was no hurt little puppy. She was an antagonist. She was reacted to as such. She took over the forum as if she was the only one who had something to say, and frequently expressed her disdain for those who challenged her. She was 'nasty'. Uh, huh. 'Nasty'. And she had nothing to offer in terms of exes coming to grips with the aftermath of their involvement in M's cult, which is what this website is ALL about, in case you didn't know.

But leave it to a premie to say raina was a 'hurt little puppy' that we all ganged up on. What about Jim? I wonder if Elaine thinks he's a hurt little puppy, too. Poor little fella.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:31:05 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Are you blind?
Message:
Jerry
Do you recall when I first posted raina? - I said she was funny,great - Hell on Wheels - go girl - she came back at me in a new thread, even, saying all sorts of mean things- it was really uncalled for, intense - lots of superlatives - as only raina could do -just that special way of hers.

My god - yes, she's a hurt puppy- damaged - would that suit you better? And yes, haven't read alot of Jim lately, but I see his headlines and yes, of course, he's a hurt, little puppy - hurt is basically the bottom denominator HERE.
Then, how one chooses to resolve and/or express that hurt - takes many forms.

I am sorry - I really didn't want to start talking about raina - so let's say I'm just talking about people LIKE her,in general,ok?

Elaine

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 19:38:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Just how hurt am I, Elaine? Please, I need 2 know
Message:
And yes, haven't read alot of Jim lately, but I see his headlines and yes, of course, he's a hurt, little puppy...

Elaine,

You're right, of course. I'm hurt. I'm so hurt that I can barely function in life. No friends, no career, no relationships, just a ball of smouldering pain.

Did I get that right? Please, Elaine, I need to know. It hurts like hell to hear a bit of the truth like that and not get the whole picture. Please, Elaine, help me. Am I so hurt that I mask it in lots of this or that or am I rather wearing my pain on my sleeve? Does it fluctuate, come and go, even? Or is it chronic? Is it getting worse? (I hope not. I don't know if I could handle much more of this.) Or is it getting better somehow? Or maybe it's just a constant slab of darkness, the same one that settled over me back in '81 when I left the ashram. Plese, Elaine, help.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 17:26:20 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: You're a LIAR, Elaine, here's why....
Message:
You said:

I really didn't want to start talking about raina

YOU STARTED A WHOLE NEW THREAD TALKING ABOUT RAINA !!!

Yeah, you better stay away from AG.

Dismayed,

Gerry

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 17:55:04 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: You're a LIAR, Elaine, here's why....
Message:
Gerry,
Are you obsessed with me? Why is it you pick on every little thing. Can't a person change there minds ?
All I ever wanted was an ans. fr the FA's - I figured they would say :

* 'Yes, we are in contact thru e-mail - she's pissed -but, she's ok.'* That would have been the end for me.

That's all I wanted - but nooo --and now you call me a liar - was this a meaningful word your parents used in your upbringing? Does it trigger you -so you think it triggers others ?

It's not a trigger for me, Gerry. And I know what I am.
We all can delude and deny things in our lives and I would hope in my quest for being real w/ myself -if I was lying to myself - someone would gently point it out to me.
When a kid isn't hungry - do you MAKE them eat,or else? Maybe you're not like that in real life - but, you sure come off that way to me here.
Why do you purposely attack and try to hurt people.

Is this truly what you think is constructive communication?

I stopped reading you for awhile - I'm going to have to stop soon again - you're so unnecessarily intense.

Disagree with me if you want- point out that you think I'm missing something - but, this intensity is purely acting out.

Does any of this make sense to you -or are you just going to post back some reactive 'Grrr' response with no thoughtfulness ?

Elaine

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 18:12:41 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Oh you just changed your mind and you really
Message:
don't want to talk about raina behind her back where she has no recourse or ability to respond to you. Oh, you changed your mind. OK I'll put you down like that.

Is 'liar' a trigger word for me? No, but just don't call me 'pantywaste' or 'fruitcake' 'cause I may just forget my manners and fly of the handle. And you really wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that.

An, uh, I don't have any kids, but if the little fuckers didn't eat their Maypo I'd hold their faces in it until they puked like any normal caring father would.

And no, what you say doesn't make a whole lotta sense to me Elaine, when I consider the source...

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:47:46 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Are you blind?
Message:
It is so true Elaine that there are lots of hurt little puppies or damaged human beings here. It's also so true that people try to resolve and express that hurt in many different ways. Of course, not all posts are examples of hurt. But the truly blind are those who cannot or will not see the hurt and try to behave accordingly. If one hurt puppy would just come out and say, 'I'm hurting'.
I'm hurting! Anger hurts. Bad vibes hurt! Nasty words hurt! Being stereotyped hurts! Feeling unloved and misunderstood hurts! Being ostrasized hurts! I'm not talking for myself alone. I am voicing this for almost everyone. Only the blind would really reject this. imo.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 18:48:06 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Grrr!!!
Message:
It is so true Elaine that there are lots of hurt little puppies or damaged human beings here.

Keith, sometimes we can play act sympathy a little too far. Where you want to see a bunch of hurt little puppies, I prefer to see people who have, or need to learn that they have more strength in them than they know. They just need to be confronted with a situation which they don't want to, like realizing that M is a fraud, not a savior, and that there is no hidden paradise within that the right techniques and/or right master is going to reveal to them. That's a fantsy that needs to be let go of. Then people can see what they're really made of, and I think most people are pleasantly surprised to see that they don't crack and fall apart like they were afraid they would. Instead they find a reserve of strength they didn't know they had. So fuck all the hurt little puppies. It's time they all grew up anyway. The little puppy fuckers.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 21:27:15 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Grrr!!!
Message:
Somebody just read back my last post to me and said it ended a little too strong. I was trying to be funny. Guess sometimes it doesn't come across that way. Oh, well. Sorry, little puppies.
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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 01:04:07 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Grrr!!!
Message:
'puppy fuckers' made me laugh.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 01:49:23 (GMT)
From: (Sir) David
Email: None
To: O
Subject: This isn't the real world though
Message:
and thankfully, when we move to another web site, log off the net or walk away from our computer, this 'world' disappears.

I agree with many of your points. They are well thought out and not superficial. Your own perspective is important and of no less value than others' here. So please don't be afraid to contribute more if you feel like it. You may also go to my forum, The ANYTHING GOES Forum, if you feel like a change.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 15:38:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: (Sir) David
Subject: Go to hell, Dave
Message:
I agree with many of your points. They are well thought out and not superficial. Your own perspective is important and of no less value than others' here.

What is this, Dave? The big (Sir)Dave Windup that we've seen before? Talking out of both sides of your mouth again? Oh, yeah, I forgot, you're not an ex, you're above that. Just like Elaine's not a premie. What a hypocrite you are!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 17:52:16 (GMT)
From: (Sir) David
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I've already been, thanks
Message:
And you know how much notice I take of critisism. I can't remember all of the original post but the salient point being that a person believes M is God etc or not, of their own free will and judgement and no-one can change that by arguing. Well, I thought that was an extremely true point.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 18:18:51 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: (Sir) David
Subject: Now goddammit, DAve it's...
Message:
spelled 'criticism.'

Hey, I was thinking, when you saw that UFO so clearly, now that's not you usual long distance sighting of a UFO and maybe there's more to it than that.

Ever read any of David M. Jacobs' books? He's a history Prof at Temple U (one of my many alma maters he he) and has written what I consider to be the best and most 'scientific' studies of the phenomenon.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 19:32:10 (GMT)
From: (Sir) David
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: UFOs really exist 100%
Message:
Now are you trying to get Jim's back up by talking about UFOs? I've only read one UFO book, I'm afraid and it was not believable. I was in prison at the time for non payment of a traffic fine (I'd given all my money to Haharaji) and it was all there was to read.

The UFO I saw was absolutely beautiful. Divine even. I saw it with the naked eye and through a hand held scope. The writing on it was not like anything I'd ever seen before or since.

Seeing one close up is better than reading about them and I guess that's why I don't read books about them. But I may check out that title you've mentioned. Evidently, the type of UFO which I saw has been seen by lots of people the world over.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 20:04:12 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: (Sir) David
Subject: UFOs really exist 100%
Message:
Not trying to wind up Jim, believe me. I'd like to talk to you sometime about this, in more detail perhaps at your place. I'm off line for the next few days though.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 04:16:37 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: (Sir) David
Subject: Dave you slut
Message:
That's the deal with you, ain't it Dave. Butter 'em , smooze a little, and then swoosh! wisk them off to that den of iniquity you've created over there at The ANYTHING GOES Forum

Your Self promotion is transparent, Sir !!!

Dismayed,

gErRy

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 10:48:39 (GMT)
From: (Sir) David
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Dave you slut
Message:
If you don't promote yourself - who will? I'm getting a new ad on CNN tonight and also NBC tomorrow. Should boost the viewing figures for The ANYTHING GOES Forum.

In case you didn't catch that, it's The ANYTHING GOES Forum.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 07:50:34 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Keep on slutting Dave .nt
Message:
Keep on slutting Dave.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 04:22:43 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Must admit, Dave, looks like you're recruiting! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 07:52:32 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Keep on recruiting Dave.
Message:
No link...from here to there. What's a forum God to do?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 01:38:25 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: O
Subject: My observations
Message:
'Yes,there are quirky individuals there like everywhere.Yes there is personal ambition there like everywhere.Yes there are all kinds of people there,but that's just it,there ARE all kinds and they are all accepted'

Sounds like the forum to me-snicker!

Except not everything that goes on here is accepted by everyone. When things degenerate a lot of people here don't like it--myself included. There ARE times when things are bad, however, there is a lot of good here. For one thing, people can get help if they ask. People make friends. Everyone is free to have their own opinion. I like a lot of the people here, but frankly I'm glad I don't have to accept everyone.
Peace,
VP

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 01:13:06 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: O
Subject: not everyone here is like that
Message:
You pick your verbal sparring partners. Personally I think you have made a few bad choices.
Liked your post.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 05:38:18 (GMT)
From: Breckguy
Email: sunriver@colorado.net
To: My Observation
Subject: not everyone here is like that
Message:
Thanks, liked your ....Post. Unfortunately, little sinks in with little minds...like that guy Powerman....what a moron. All one can do is .....make a point, and laugh at the responses.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 12:32:55 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Breckguy
Subject: What point have you made?
Message:
Who is the moron? The ones who don't want to reason. YOU. Not the exes! You got it all backwards and you don't want your little world to crumble. You hold to your concepts tight, afraid of realizing what we did already: We wasted our time with a stupid guru!
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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:16:27 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: SB
Subject: Breckguy is possibly 'Dave'...
Message:
..who posted here a couple of weeks ago. Might just be his twin. Same domain name. Mr 'Move on, get a life'. Sent me a nasty email. Called us all pathetic but has nothing intelligent to say.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 06:09:33 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Breckguy
Subject: Breckguy? ok there is a joke I am missing here
Message:
uh ?? makes me feel young :) all I can think of is that
awful shampoo but I am missing it.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:19:28 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Breckguy? ok there is a joke I am missing here
Message:
The way.... the Breckguy....is posting......is scary.
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