Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 00:40:29 (GMT)
From: Jun 21, 2000 To: Jun 28, 2000 Page: 3 Of: 5


gwh -:- Knowledge Realized -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:34:35 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Knowledge Realized -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 20:05:18 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- Knowledge Realized -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 00:47:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- Knowledge Realized -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 14:53:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Knowledge Realized -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 07:39:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Knowledge Realized -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 21:05:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Boris -:- Knowledge Realized -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 05:44:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Teachers are a trap, IMO -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 21:39:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- searchin' for a genu-whine teacher -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 15:29:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- searchin' for a genu-whine teacher -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 04:16:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- searchin' for a genu-whine teacher -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 21:46:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Fierce Trapper of Souls--Bingo, Helen -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 21:08:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Helen, Monmot -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 03:30:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Thanks, SB nt -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 04:54:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Helen, Monmot -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 22:34:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- I'm good! -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 22:54:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- I'm good! (ot) -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 01:01:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- I'm good! (ot) -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 03:54:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- love, connection, humor--them is the stuff! -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 02:39:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Knowledge Realized -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 04:07:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Check out G's research on gwh's recommendations nt -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 04:35:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Quote for the day -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 16:30:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- And to expand on that - quote from Franklin Jones -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 02:40:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- wonder what 'a healthy sex life' for a guru is? -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 17:53:10 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Oy, zen bloke... -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:57:28 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Anth of the one gland slapping ??? -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 20:30:14 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Knowledge Realized -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:54:00 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- There's another interpretation of that zen quote -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 10:49:40 (GMT)
__ gwh -:- Knowledge Realized -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:58:51 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Knowledge Realized -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 07:55:00 (GMT)
__ __ Rob -:- FA - So much for Free Speech? -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 18:24:02 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- Gangaji!!!! -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:49:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Yeah, well like I said, I'm ready -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 15:05:08 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Alright, I'm ready. Which foot do I put where? -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 13:46:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Step 1 -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 15:04:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Hal -:- Alright, I'm ready. Which foot do I put where? -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:47:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Crap Theories -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 20:42:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Write a book, YES! Use both feet. (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 22:07:41 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Criteria for your recommendations/endorsements? -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 12:00:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ gwh -:- Criteria for your recommendations/endorsements? -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 07:25:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- The Mother of God (written by Andrew Cohen's mom) -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 23:04:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- The Mother of God (written by Andrew Cohen's mom) -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 02:39:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Andrew Cohen, guru misconduct -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 04:06:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Saniel Bonder and 'Adi Da' -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 22:52:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gwh -:- Saniel Bonder and 'Adi Da' -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 07:15:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- More on Saniel Bonder and 'Adi Da' -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 04:32:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Ken Wilbur... -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 22:31:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Unreal -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 02:50:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Yikes--lame guru pick up lines -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 02:51:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- LOL - thought that myself! -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 03:05:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- a local case of abuse -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 22:49:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- a local case of abuse -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 00:52:14 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- I basically agree, gwh -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 04:08:18 (GMT)

Nigel -:- Bim/Bjorn/Just curious... -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:05:17 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- You forgot an important one! -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 07:56:14 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- Excellent point Jean Michel -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 18:22:05 (GMT)
__ VP -:- Bim/Bjorn/Just curious... -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 03:13:03 (GMT)

Jim -:- Next move, anyone? -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 23:32:39 (GMT)
__ Lotus Eater -:- Next move, anyone? -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 21:32:37 (GMT)
__ Keith -:- Next move, anyone? -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 03:01:58 (GMT)
__ DV -:- Next move, anyone? -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 01:45:56 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Next move, anyone? -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 03:19:22 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Free defense attys though -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 01:47:19 (GMT)
__ Hector -:- Next move, anyone? -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:49:57 (GMT)
__ __ Elaine -:- That took guts... -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 23:34:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- That took delusion... -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 10:08:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- I liked that!! True nt -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 22:16:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- To Hector and Elaine -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 03:41:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Watch Elaine's brain try to figure something out -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 04:01:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Watch Elaine's brain try to figure something out -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 22:14:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- At least 2X I was 'callous', SB ;-) (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 04:39:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- At least 2X I was 'callous', SB ;-) -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 11:02:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- At least 2X I was 'callous', SB ;-) -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 12:01:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Yes, very nice....well, almost: Hect and Keith ;-) -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 13:29:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Yes, very nice....well, almost: Hect and Keith ;-) -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 15:22:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Yes, very nice....well, almost: Hect and Keith ;-) -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 18:48:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Yes, very nice....well, almost: Hect and Keith ;-) -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 01:17:25 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Condescending and arrogant, Hector -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 21:23:28 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- But, Hector, this is my calling! -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 01:01:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- Trivia Quiz -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 13:30:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- 1) Don't know; 2) chill it in the freezer 1st (nt -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 13:50:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- answer -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:14:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- 1) Well, I knew it wasn't Harmonium; 2) u shld (nt -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:33:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- 1) Harmonium ... Yuck - no way! LOL 2) maybe(nt) -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:40:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- Wow the voice came to you -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 01:39:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Hector -:- But, Hector, this is my calling! -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 01:26:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- But, Hector, this is my calling! -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 23:39:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Daneane -:- Note to self -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 01:25:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Zelda -:- What to do now -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 06:53:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- What to do now? Keep doing what we've been doing -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 07:55:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- What to do now? Keep doing what we've been doing -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 09:43:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Yeah, tape into private communication systems! -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 09:49:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Yeah, tape into private communication systems! -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 02:38:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JtF -:- Yeah, tape into private communication systems! -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 10:09:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- of course !!! can you still access it? (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 13:01:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JtF -:- Good! Thought I was the only one (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 13:36:13 (GMT)

Lotus Eater -:- I've noticed -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 22:40:55 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- I've noticed -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 12:38:26 (GMT)
__ __ Lotus Eater -:- Thank you for saying that -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 20:58:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Hal -:- Thank you for saying that -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 15:39:39 (GMT)

cq -:- Bully for Balyogeshwar? -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 20:56:49 (GMT)

Roger eDrek -:- Yuck! I'm being probed! -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 18:35:33 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Yuck! I'm being probed! -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 00:01:31 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- Yuck! I'm being probed! -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 21:30:17 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Yuck! I'm being probed! -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 19:43:01 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Katie and Roger -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 19:54:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Damn it, Jim, it IS about me! -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 23:33:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Boy, did u really say all those things about Him? -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:05:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger Judas eDrek -:- Worse than being Pubic Enemy No. 1 -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 02:22:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- well then, plug all known holes and... -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 23:55:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- and wouldn't you know it, I'm off my meds -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 02:25:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Seleneie -:- do what you must -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 03:07:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger Really Bad eDrek -:- I wonder if HE'd let me... -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 03:47:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Administrator -:- It's OK Roger... -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 07:26:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- What about Raina? -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 13:49:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ FA -:- What about Raina? -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:39:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Thanks nt -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 22:49:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks again, FA's -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 15:12:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- but why do you need a baragon for that Roger? -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 03:59:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Katie and Roger -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 19:57:58 (GMT)
__ Zelda -:- Should we email him??????????????!!!!!!!!! -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 19:23:07 (GMT)

Powerman -:- Keith - A reminder -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 15:50:28 (GMT)
__ Keith -:- Keith - A reminder -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:22:50 (GMT)
__ __ Powerman -:- Keith - A reminder -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 23:38:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Keith -:- Penis size. -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 04:17:31 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- down to the nitty gritty -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 21:05:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Keith -:- down to the nitty gritty -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 22:39:04 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- Keith - my feelings -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 17:38:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Keith -:- Keith - my feelings -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 22:28:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Keith - my feelings -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 22:35:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- Keith - my feelings -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 22:43:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- More to Katie. -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 23:05:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- It's OK, Keith -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:14:16 (GMT)
__ __ Elaine -:- Keith - A reminder -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:39:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ De ProGram Anand Ji -:- Keith - A reminder -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:57:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Keith -:- Keith - A reminder -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:51:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- Keith - A reminder -:- Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 22:23:32 (GMT)

AJW -:- Jethro's Post -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 12:50:27 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- Jethro's Post -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 13:20:42 (GMT)
__ __ SHP -:- All this -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 19:47:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- All this -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 07:32:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ premie -:- All this -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 20:37:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- Re:All this -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 21:22:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- I agree but... -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 23:16:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- I agree but... -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 07:38:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Shp, will u please take Keith camping? (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 19:56:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ham -:- Like the amazon, or mongolia or amaroo maybe?:) -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:27:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Like the amazon, or mongolia or amaroo maybe?:) -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:43:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Sort ya soon -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:53:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Actually, I was IN Nirvana, briefly -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 01:13:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Trainspotter alert!! Were you ever into dub? -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 02:23:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Trainspotter alert!! Were you ever into dub? -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 03:28:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- credibility correction -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 03:36:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Thanx, got all the info I needed now!! -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 08:27:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- OT Excuse me Hamzen ??????? -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 18:16:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- OT Excuse me Hamzen ??????? -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 21:48:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SHP -:- Hell no, it was your idea!!(nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 22:29:11 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Can you call Ron for a little follow up? -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:16:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- Jim,read your email(nt0 -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 22:44:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Done, thanks (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 23:04:27 (GMT)

Jethro -:- To HAL(OT) -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 12:32:28 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- Correction To HAL(OT) -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 12:35:35 (GMT)


Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:34:35 (GMT)
From: gwh
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Knowledge Realized
Message:
From Gregg:
'So N.Norbu wasn't a teacher; he was an 'adornment of skillfull means?' I understand your larger point about the point of Dzogchen, but didn't you study with a teacher as a way of coming to an understanding of what is? Yes you did, of course. You're just finessing semantics.'

Simplicity, clarity, direct pointing to what is and no entrapment in demigod worship characterize an authentic teacher. Norbu is such a teacher. There are others. There is a reason for the Zen adage, ' If you meet the Buddha on the road kill him' Avoid self involved, devotee hungry gurus.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 20:05:18 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: Knowledge Realized
Message:
Listen, gwh, I don't doubt that you've had an awakening, and are a happier man for it. But you're really promoting spiritual teachers to the wrong crowd. Like Jim suggests below, what's a 'real' teacher going to have us do that phony ones don't? What did you do differently as a student of Norbu that you didn't do with M? You meditated, you listened to him speak, you believed in him, you did as he said. The same as you did with Maharaji. Why would doing more of the same with a 'real' teacher be different?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 00:47:02 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Knowledge Realized
Message:
Not speaking for gwh, of course, but...can't one use one's mind to distinguish between the good and the bad teachers? (Or the shades of gray.)

The good teacher asks the student to pick and choose, to work with the teachings and see what happens. GMJ, of course, never gave any credence to his follower's experiences. He only wanted followers. Some teachers are different.

Yes, they all talk; their followers listen. But dig a little deeper than that, will you?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 14:53:26 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Knowledge Realized
Message:
Hi Gregg, Of course, to even select a teacher for the purpose of reaching a 'higher state' of consciousness means you have to buy into the concept of enlightenment in the first place. I don't think I do anymore. I do beleive that some people are more 'developed ' humans, ie, have more patience, more wisdom, etc, but the enlightenment through meditation thing is not a worthy pursuit, IMO.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 07:39:41 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Knowledge Realized
Message:
Thought you might be interested to know, Helen, that when I spent some time in a Zen monastery (in Nurthumberland, England) many years ago, part of the routine each day was to Chant

'I am enlightened. I am enlightened.'

LOL.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 21:05:39 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Knowledge Realized
Message:
Well, goddamn, I chanted 'I am Brittney Spears' every day for an hour and suddenly I have a pierced belly button and my fallen down butt is nice and taut!! ha ha! And dudes are like, 'Hey Brittney, you rule'

So what was the attraction to Zen Buddhism for you? Are you still into it? Did the experience help you? Did it harm you?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 05:44:20 (GMT)
From: Boris
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Knowledge Realized
Message:
Dear Helen,

I have to disagree with you on this point. I think real meditation definately has an affect on the journey of a being.

What worries me is that M doesn't really care about the individual journey of his followers. He appears only to be interested in the number of followers. Whether these followers are actually progressing should be of great importance to a real guru/teacher I would like to think.

Maybe I shouldn't be so quick to judge as he is always going over the techniques with the premies these days. What about the premies who were unable to attend?

And what about the ones that are unable to practice yet still remember an experience that they would like to get back to experiencing?

I just met an old premie who was experiencing a huge dose of crazy mind due to malnutrition etc. She used to look after mahatmas/ instructors when they passed through in the 70's.

I hope she will find the peace she was looking for. I know m is not aware of her suffering and doesn't appear to care about her and what she is going through. She still has her alligence to him although she is not experiencing peace to say the least. She is one example but there must be plenty of other premies in the same boat.

Boris.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 21:39:56 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Boris
Subject: Teachers are a trap, IMO
Message:
Hey Boris,
The health of premies definitely is a big concern of mine as well. I agree that M's zeal for gathering lots of premies doesn't exactly lend itself to an intimate relationship with him. But really, would any of us want a more intimate
relationship with him? I think we all wanted a dream, a fictitious something that can never really exist in true life. M is no more capable of nurturing someone's spiritual development than Richard Nixon was capable of being a 'Dead Head'.

Let's say I still beleived in this guru-disciple thing. I definitely would agree that the teacher should be interested in a student's progress. But it all depends on what you mean by 'progress'--

If the goal is 'enlightenment' what does that mean?
Is the goal to be happy?
To not have attachments?
What is the goal?
If the goal is enlightenment then the student embarks on a journey that can never be attained, IMO, thus inviting a kind of frustration into his or her life, a kind of rejection of normal life. In the frustrated life of the devotee the happiness comes in breif little spurts by the guru's grace, so there is no sense of control over this mysterious thing called happiness. So as far as I can see the whole thing is a terrible trap.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 15:29:10 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Gregg and all
Subject: searchin' for a genu-whine teacher
Message:
After reading this whole thread I am reminded of the film 'The Third Miracle' that we saw the other night (on video). Really good film BTW! The priest who has lost his faith, played by Ed Harris, wants so badly to get his faith back and is recommending to a vatican committee that a certain woman be made a saint. He so much wants it to be true because only a miracle will bring him back to his faith. Unfortunately, in investigating another would-be saint, he became disillusioned when he found out the guy was far from saintly (that's what made him lose his faith).

This search for a 'genuine' teacher amongst the corrupt ones, reminds me of Ed Harris' character, seems like such a bloody waste of time. Talk about the 'waste of this precious life' or however M used to say it. Meanwhile life is here to live. Can't we live good satisfying lives without some bloody spiritual teacher telling us how to be happy? I suppose some folks are really driven by this enlightment thing and just have to find it, but they can find it on their own, IMO. Why does there have to be an intermediary between them and their experience of God, or happiness or whatever?

I feel like I woke up from a dream when I finally let go of the enlightenment paradigm as a life's pursuit. I feel like I woke up and started making some plans about my life. What if this is it--this is the one lifetime we are alloted? Do I want my tombstone to read 'she spent her life chasing gurus and never found what she was looking for' or 'she seized life by the balls and was a good human being'? I want to work for the latter myself.

BTW, Anne Heche plays the daughter of the so-called saint (the ssaint candidate is deceased) in this film, The THird Miracle. She testifies to Harris that she thinks of her mother as far from saintly because she left her when she was 16 to move into a convent. There is that whole dichotemy introduced into the movie--was she so beloved by God that she had to abandon her child? See, that's a whole paradigm that I am not satisfied with. How can that be Godly, to abandon one's child? But Harris' character wanted so badly to beleive in this saint that he couldn't see that disconnect. I guess God is a fierce trapper of souls in the priesthood paradigm, that whole concept of God as Master with us all on a choke chain that He can snap and keep us in line, Stonor wrote about that below. God the oppressor!

BTW, Ed Harris and Ann Heche get kinda intimate in one scene, and Gary and I were urging him on 'Go for it, Father!!' but he drops her for God. That was really disappointing. I thought maybe he would come to think God gave him this beautiful woman to help fulfill his life, but no such luck. He had to go back to that dreary celibate life. God shouldn't be fun after all, God must be a hair shirt and involve lots and lots of suffering. Life has enough suffering by its nature, IMO.

One thing the movie made me curious about is this idea of sainthood and how the Catholic church does require witnesses and evidence of miracles to make someone a saint. Anyone know much about this? I wasn't raised with this stuff so I don't know much about it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 04:16:50 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: searchin' for a genu-whine teacher
Message:
Hi Helen,

Haven't seen 'The Third Miracle' but who knows, maybe I'll watch it one day. I enjoyed reading your post Helen.

You wrote,
Can't we live good satisfying lives without some bloody spiritual teacher telling us how to be happy? I suppose some folks are really driven by this enlightment thing and just have to
find it, but they can find it on their own, IMO. Why does there have to be an intermediary between them and their experience of God, or happiness or whatever?

I've found it strange that m made so many threats, yet always emphasized enjoyment and happiness. When I think of 'enlightenment', I think of a goal at the end of an extremely long tunnel that I definitely won't reach the end of in this life. As you might remember, I'm the one who has searched for a teacher, but has made do with books and life, some yoga and meditation. IMO, you don't need an intermediary - for me that's not the way to go at all. But to me that doesn't mean that others can't help you nor that you can't help yourself. One of my first influences was fairy tales (and mythology). Right now I'm reading a book by Thomas and Olga de Hartmann. He wrote, 'I had read fairy tales since early childhood and their meaning stayed with me always: to go forwrd, and never forget the real aim, to overcome obstacles, to hope for help from unknown sources if one's aspiration were a true one. Also, it seems that if you keep striving for one great purpose, you will win things you never dreamed of in addition, but woe to you if you allow yourself to be diverted, if you are tempted by something cheap.' Another quote you might like, Gurdjieff said that nobody can initiate you but yourself. They seem to fit in here somehow. For me it's not just one aspect of reality that concerns us, but rather a more and more complete one of 'whatever-it-is' or whatever (;-)

BTW, Anne Heche plays the daughter of the so-called saint (the ssaint candidate is deceased) in this film, The THird Miracle. She testifies to Harris that she thinks of her mother as far from saintly because she left her when she was 16 to move into a convent. There is that whole dichotemy introduced into the movie--was she so beloved by God that she had to abandon her child? See, that's a whole paradigm that I am not satisfied with.

I wasn't raised Catholic either, but I had the same problem with St. Augustine when I had to read a bit of him. He left his wife (wives?) and many children, when he 'found' God (or God found him ;-).

Stonor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 21:46:55 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: searchin' for a genu-whine teacher
Message:
Loved the quote! I think we were diverted on the Maharaji path, and were diverted by something cheap. A cheap imitation of something!! And we suffered for it!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 21:08:18 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Fierce Trapper of Souls--Bingo, Helen
Message:
Dear Helen:
Really enjoyed your post. My husband and I watched The Third Miracle the other night also, and I know I was cheering Ed Harris' character on during the hugaboo scene with Anne Heche. I don't think God (whatever that is) is a fierce trapper of souls, but we sure make him/her/it one, and I think it's a wonderfully descriptive phrase (good title for a story/novel). There are so many people out there who're not searching for 'god' per se, but perhaps for balance and well-being, and who are such incredible people. One of my 'drips' when I practiced K was the observations I began to make about 'ordinary' people who didn't have K. They were balanced, loving and together in so many ways that I wasn't at the time. It really made me question the validity of what I was doing, and also made me deconstruct that stupid concept that premies have/had about people who didn't have K being lost in the maya.

One of the biggest ironies to date in my life was the realization that, in the process I underwent in leaving M, I became who I thought I'd become if I followed M and avidly practiced K. At that time, a friend (a good one, I realize now) suggested that I stop meditating for a while because he thought that meditation was keeping strong the thing that made me weak. As sacriligeous as that sounded to me then, I gave it a shot, and I found that my perceptions began to change and my experiences became more grounded.

I recently had breakfast with a friend I've known for 8 years or so, and she was telling me about her early teen years in Iran. Her father was a general in Iran when the overthrow of the Shah was taking place. Her father was arrested, and when she went to visit her father in prison, she was raped by a group of soldiers. Soon thereafter she witnessed her father's assassination, and she and her remaining family had to flee Iran or they would have been killed also. I have read some of this woman's writing, and a screenplay of the story of her early life up to her father's assassination, and I am humbled in the face of what she has endured. She is smart, funny and highly articulate. I increasingly find, in hearing people's stories and how they overcome the seemingly overwhelming adversities in their lives, that that is where I find the presence of a god/higher power. I really think that the philosopher's stone which turns lead to gold in peoples' lives is humor, love, and a sense of connection. Sometimes I think god is staring us in the face.

On the saint front, from what I can remember of my many years in Catholic school (my deformative years, for sure), to prove a person a saint, the investigating committee must find three certifiable miracles, and I do remember that when the grave of the Beatfied person (the first step toward sainthood) is opened, the body cannot have decomposed. Of course, nowadays, with embalming etc., I don't know how they can ascertain decomposition or not. Certification usually must be first hand evidence/testimony, but again I can't see how direct evidence can be had when the Church is trying to beatify someone long dead.

M

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 03:30:52 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Monmot and Helen
Subject: Helen, Monmot
Message:
Good posts!! Thanks!

SB

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 04:54:58 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Thanks, SB nt
Message:
ggg
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 22:34:49 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Helen, Monmot
Message:
Thanks SB! How are ya?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 22:54:34 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: I'm good!
Message:
juggling time, not enough to do what I want. I haven't go to the post office yet! I bought a bunch of plants and they were getting sad: they needed to go to the ground and now I'm in trouble. I did decided to replace the soil and is a lot of work...ahhhhh...I have days working... I'll write to you soon. Hope all is well for you!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 01:01:00 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: I'm good! (ot)
Message:
I am getting it together tonight--your stuff-- and Gary is taking it to the post office tomorrow. See--I am 'task challenged'--I learned that phrase from Selene. Gardening is lots of work--one benefit to having a postage stamp sized yard is I only plant a little--even then me old muscles are sore for a few days--

Say hi to Michigan for me--love the place, and I go up there every few years, maybe next trip I will visit???
Helen

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 03:54:47 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: I'm good! (ot)
Message:
Nobody knew I was from Michigan...until now...hahahahaha....There went my anonimity...I don't care.

When you have the time is fine...I'm 'task challenged' too!! We can make a club and see who has more tasks waiting and...LOL

I took three backets of clay to make room for new soil. I bought a plant that has an incredible blue iridiscent color, a perennial, and I had to have it, but my arms are ready to fall off now! LOL

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 02:39:15 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: love, connection, humor--them is the stuff!
Message:
'Humor, love, and a sense of connection' I agree with your points here very much. I think that k & M gave lip service to the achievement of a state of consciousness that would somehow bypass the stuff that everyday normal people go through. So we thought we were above all that. Funny thing about it, we all had to go back and start over, learn to be human beings. You can't bypass that part --learning to be a human being with a body, emotions, mortality, and a conscience--it just isn't possible or desirable for the attainment of any kind of true happiness (which IMO comes from having a sense of mastery and control over one's life).

I agree with you that the true 'teachers' or 'gurus' are those people we meet who are able to overcome adversity and pain and achieve a sort of awakened state of the beauty of life regardless of the horrors they have seen. They aren't gurus in the wretchedly limiting Hindu sense, but in the HUMAN sense which to me is ever more vast and rich.

Glad to hear you were cheering on ol' Father Frank!! 'get some, dude!' I actually was crying during that scene, Ed Harris showed the hunger and longing for human touch so beautifully. That to me is the real holy communion!!

That image of God as a trapper of souls, I really bought into that and the idea that somehow I was a chosen one because God called to me so loudly. I would pick up my cross and walk through the valley, yea, verily. It made me different and special. I think alot of people who have a Master buy into that. This idea of going all the way for God. It's this idea of suffering being redemptive in some way, or rewarded in heaven.

Now I think that attitude about suffering just begets more suffering!! My attitude now is that On its own,even without the burden of a guru or spiritual teacher, life is full of suffering...why bring on more. Life is enough of a teacher just taken on its own terms. having people to love--like you said, 'connection, humor and love'--eases the suffering.

There was a lot of unnecessary suffering that I put myself through being on the guru trip. It was all very unnecessary. I made things so hard for myself. Now I see it all as unhealthy horseshit.

Nice talking to ya, Monmot, take care
Helen

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 04:07:39 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Knowledge Realized
Message:
Gregg,

I know of no 'teacher' that isn't a parott of the rest. Not one. But I'm willing to give gwh a little slack because, supposedly, zen focuses on the 'awakening' of the student, not the glory of the master. While I'm not into eastern mysticism, anymore, I suppose that some kind of liberation through it's practices is possible, and some teachers, who may have achieved that liberation, might not care, as our dear, sweet M does, for the adulation from their devotees. That may be a telling tale as to who might be on the level in this game. I would say that a true teacher wouldn't need praise from his students, but instead, having been liberated himself, only cares about helping others achieve the same, and keeps his focus, as well a his students' on that. I'm only supposing, here, but I suppose that's a key factor, and I suspect gwh would agree. Maybe the reason M did fail was because he was more into himself and having his ass, and feet, kissed, than he cared about the 'enlightenment' of his devotees. But how many of these guys have really achieved a state of consciousness that would free them from any wants but to help others? I doubt any of the more popular ones, certainly not the ones who made a financial killing by bringing their wares to the west.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 04:35:33 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Check out G's research on gwh's recommendations nt
Message:
Check out G's research on gwh's recommendations nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 16:30:11 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Quote for the day
Message:
'…teachers must keep their hands off students' wallets and bodies. After all, if a person cannot rise above their appetites then they have no business instructing anyone ....'

-- Rev. Allan Armstrong, The Order of Dionysis & Paul, an address given at the 1997 Golden Dawn Conference in London

Now there's a good question for him:
'Maharaji, your lifestyle is evidently a very opulent one. Do you think this puts people off asking for 'knowledge'?

M: 'why should it put them off?'

'Well, Mr Rawat, whose wallets got you where you are today?'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 02:40:36 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: And to expand on that - quote from Franklin Jones
Message:
Did you check out G's post, 'More on Saniel Bonder and 'Adi Da''?

Here's a quote from The Strange Case of Franklin Jones I think the whole text is worth checking out.

In all of the world's major religions there are sub-traditions that emphasize the paramount value of the spiritual preceptor (guru, rebbe, murshid, shih fu, roshi, etc.) These traditions claim that the spiritual preceptor can greatly accelerate the development of the disciple who submits completely to the preceptor's will.6 In addition, they generally caution that the right preceptor is necessary for growth; a fraudulent or deluded preceptor is disastrous for the disciple and can literally ruin his or her spiritual life. Since the choice of preceptor is so important for the disciple, the traditions have cautioned the spiritual seeker to be highly critical when selecting the man or woman to whom he/she will entrust his/her life and have taught criteria by which true teachers are to be recognized. Besides emphasizing the importance of common sense and intuition, the criteria usually include a critical examination of the moral quality of the preceptor's life. As Jesus is quoted as saying in a related context, 'By their fruits you shall know them.'7 What these traditions seem to understand (or perhaps never had to consider) is that the distinctions modern persons make between spheres of action--physical vs. mental, spiritual vs. material, academic vs. personal, intellectual vs. moral, etc.--are both arbitrary and inappropriate when considering spiritual teachers. As these teachers usually claim, there is no spiritual world divorced from everyday life. The preceptor, or guru, claims the entire life of the disciple as his/her field of action; there is no area of the disciple's life free from the scrutiny and correction of the guru. Taking this claim at face value, it only follows that every aspect of the guru's life is also open to the critical examination of the disciple; there is no life of the spirit divorced from everyday human interactions and mundane concerns. The intellectual work of an English professor may be separate from his sex life,8 but a guru's is not. Given the inseparability of spirit and matter, the cosmic and mundane, what more relevant way is there to evaluate a teacher than by his or her relationships with persons, possessions, and the environment?
While I will do my best to avoid all questionable, unsupported allegations, I will not hesitate to discuss actions taken by Da Free John that seem to bear directly on the question of character.9
It is my belief, or bias, that spiritual liberation does not free one from all rules of conventional morality. Though it is obvious that social mores are made up, the creation of particular human societies, and may well be hypocritical, inconsistent and arbitrary,10 does it necessarily follow that the individual who is'liberated' is free to indulge in what appear to be egocentric, hurtful, and damaging actions in the name of spiritual freedom? I personally think not, while acknowledging the subtlety and complexity of the ongoing debate.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 17:53:10 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: wonder what 'a healthy sex life' for a guru is?
Message:
wonder what 'a healthy sex life' for a guru is?

- strict monogamy? Abstinence/celibacy? Guilt-free promiscuity? Onanism?

I'd say that any attempt to apply one set of values to your guru and another to yourself is asking for trouble. Personally I don't have a problem with the stories about M's drinking and (to a lesser extent) his alleged promiscuity (stories which I neither believe nor disbelieve) - except for the fact that he's in a privileged position and could easily take advantage of people who have subjugated themselves to him.

Maybe the answer to my question is that there's really nothing healthy about the 'guru-trip' from start to finish.

PS thanks for the email - will live with the ideas for a day or two before getting back to you.

(~)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:57:28 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: Oy, zen bloke...
Message:
you said, ', ' If you meet the Buddha on the road kill him' Avoid self involved, devotee hungry gurus.'

Shouldn't that read, 'If you meet the Buddha on road kill him. If you meet any self involved, devotee hungry gurus, kill them too.'

Anth of the one gland slapping

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 20:30:14 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth of the one gland slapping ???
Message:
Anth of the one gland slapping ???

... and the balls of brass?

corrugated arse?

balls of steel?

snot and jellied eels?

(sorry, made that last one up)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:54:00 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: binduesque@yahoo.com
To: gwh
Subject: Knowledge Realized
Message:
Thanks for the clarification, gwh, and I also salute your post below regarding Western teachers, although I haven't personally met any of those four. I have met some others, Americans who have worked with various 'Eastern' schools for decades and have mastered the essentials and can teach others well. It helps when a teacher speaks the same language as the student. Nuances are important. When a Hindu guru uses the word 'mind,' for example, we might read something into the word that was not intended.

Also, although the direct experience of the Mystery is ineffable, there are some mental/emotional untanglings along the way that someone raised in this culture can help with.

Later.

Now!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 10:49:40 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: There's another interpretation of that zen quote
Message:
Avoid anyone on an offical religious or group route,
like the plague,
you will experience nothing but mind pollution.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:58:51 (GMT)
From: gwh
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Knowledge Realized
Message:
To my fellow ex-premies,

I am not interested in selling Dozgchen or N. Norbu. I am interested in conveying what to me is a simple and profound fact. 'Spiritual Awakening' is a reality... Don't be discouraged by negative experiences associated with 'M'. Don't give up. There are many sincere teachers....

Saniel Bonder, Andrew Cohen, Gangaji, Metta Zetty.

There is an emergence of awakened westerners that have moved away from the Asian paradigm of 'Enlightenment'. They are worth checking out.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 07:55:00 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: gwh
Subject: Knowledge Realized
Message:
gwh:

You cite Saniel Bonder, Andrew Cohen, Gangaji, Metta Zetty.

I am not aware that any of these people endorse each other's teachings, or those of anyone other than themselves. (Certainly not Andrew Cohen or Ganagaji.) Doesn't that tell you something? This might even be a defining characteristic of cults generally which sets them apart from mainstream religions etc: the presumed spiritual authority of a single authority and leader.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 18:24:02 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: FA - So much for Free Speech?
Message:
Didn't know it was policy to remove expletives?

On the whole I think I converse quite respectably, but the odd little Anglo-Saxon dismissive can be quite effective if used judiciously.

So do you want to spell out the rules and regs and why you deleted those posts? There does seem to be a new, more liberal approach to premie posters going on at the moment. Is this part of a Grander Plan which I'm not privy to?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:49:23 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: Gangaji!!!!
Message:
Dear gwh, Oh Realized One,

Gangaji has been mentioned here from time to time. Her website is easily accessed through a search for 'Satsang with Gangaji.'
(That would make a great title for a cable TV show!)

Gangaji's teachings can easily be summarized by a direct quote: 'This is the truth: there is nothing to search for. How to search for nothing? In giving up everything one hundred percent, no-thing is found.'

In her meetings, Gangaji congratulates the attendees for having made it to her presence, saying that they must have made a commitment to truth in their childhood in order to be meeting her now.

Her devotees write her many loving letters, addressed to 'Beloved.' They enthusiastically inform their Master that they have begun to realize that they are nothing. They sign off with exclamations of the greatest gratitude.

But luckily there is a very concrete way to express that gratitude and I quote directly:

'The experience that often follows meeting Gangaji is an undeniable desire to express gratitude for this gift of truth so freely given...Send a gift of cash in any amount...Donate stocks, bonds, real estate or other valuable assets...Our promise is to use your gift of money wisely and respectfully.'

Now, let's see, where have I heard those words before? Let me think. 'The gift of truth so feely given, gratitude, gratitude, money, money...' It's seems vaguely familiar. Wait. Wait. I think I'm beginning to get a message from the Higher Self. Yes, it's coming through loud and clear. I am nothing! Glorious day! I am free! Where's my checkbook?

In case you haven't caught my drift, gwh, I am not too enthused about your teacher recommendations. May I make a suggestion to you? Forget about all those hundreds of masters out there, and set up shop yourself. There's no dearth of potential followers, even now!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 15:05:08 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Yeah, well like I said, I'm ready
Message:
Yeah, I forgot to mention, I can send a bit of money too. That is, if you don't make me feel like I'm pressured or anything, 'kay? I hate pressure. But if I feel like this is a real teaching and everything, sure, I might send in a few bucks. Can't hurt, huh? And i know how Karma works and all, so you don't have to tell me. It's like, if I give one a hundred will come back to me, or something like that, right? See, I told you. I know some of this shit already.

So, like, I can send in a bit now. I can send in more later but, well, how about a hundred bucks for starters, eh? I mean, I already know it's going to a good cause because I can tell, eh? There's just something about your web site. No, it's not just the graphics (which are really cool with the animation and all that). It's like I could really FEEL something when I went there, eh? So, yeah, I can send in a hundred bucks now and some more later. I'm jsut getting back into being spiritual again after a long time and ...

oh, what's that you say? Oh yeah, I never really left? Oh yeah, I remember that one! I knew that. It was all in there. See, this is cool. It's all coming back to me, like riding a bike or something. Okay, check's in the mail.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 13:46:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: Alright, I'm ready. Which foot do I put where?
Message:
If 'Spritual Awakening' is a reality, then let's get on with it, shall we? Come no, gwh, don't leave me dangling. What goes where? You know, give me the program, brother. I figure all my years in that other guru's ashram, not to mention the many spiritual books I read over time (let alone all the ones I browsed while drinking mint tea in various spiritual bookstores like The Bhodi Tree, the Banyan Tree, the Country, etc.), the kinds of people I've let crash on my couch over time, a little this, a little that, all of it makes me eminently qualified. I want to awaken and I want to awaken now!

So what do I do and how do I do it? Give me the teaching and let's get on with it already. Am I supposed to observe something? Come on, tell me. I've done that before. I used to observe my breath. You want me to do that? I can do that, just tell me. Or maybe you want me to observe the 'I' or something. I've tried that before and I was pretty good at it (I think. I mean, how can you really know these things, eh? But I kinda liked it. I can do it again.) So you tell me what do observe and I'm there. How about the unity of all things? I can observe that too if you want me to. I can observe a lot of things, you just have to ask.

Or, I know! Maybe the idea is to not observe something or other. Hell, I remember that one! Like, I'm not my thoughts or something. You want me to ignore them? 'Neti, neti', eh? Not bad, is it? Yeah, I can say that kind of shit. Hey, check this out: Jai Sat Chit Anand! Does that help? No? Hm.. Well, I didn't really think so. No, I'm not making a big deal out of it. I just wanted you to know I can pronounce that shit if need be. I was once trained to say about ten thnigs in Hindi or Sanskrit or whatever the call that shit. Yeah, I know, a parrot can say a lot more than that but EXCUSE ME! A parrot might be able to SAY a lot more phrases but can a parrot PRONOUNCE them properly? See, I was pretty good at that. Honestly.

And, by the way, you should know I'm still a vegetarian! That's right, I've got almost twenty-seven years under my belt so that's got to count for something too.

And another thing. That Andrew Cohen guy? Well, I'm jewish too. And so was Ram Dass, eh? (He still alive?) And I want you to know I could like REALLY relate to his story in Be Here Now so I just want you to know I kind of already know what it's all about, you see. But, anyway, I'm ready. Let's get on with it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 15:04:25 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Brother Jim
Subject: Step 1
Message:
...open your wallet and repeat after me, 'Help yourself.'

By emptying your wallet, you will also empty your mind, which is the first step of realisation.

Shri Anthsmokiko Master of Nowanzen

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:47:33 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Alright, I'm ready. Which foot do I put where?
Message:
Jim, I've been reading your posts for 4 months now and I really appreciate them. You have a talent for writing, that's for sure and an ascerbic wit to match. Have you ever thought of writing a book? Something like 'the cynics guide to new age garbage'. You know the perceptions you express here every day could sell very well in a book form. I'd buy it.

Thanks for your insights, you bullshit dispeller,

All the best , Hal

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 20:42:30 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Hal
Subject: Crap Theories
Message:
Hi Hal,

It probably isn't as chucklesome as a book of Jim's might be, but I cover a lot of those areas in my work-in-progress, Crap Theories of the Mind, Body and Spirit.

Selected extracts are on-line (Assuming Demon haven't disconnected me for non-payment of web account!). Html still all-to-cock on some pages, too.

M will soon be getting a BIG chapter all to himself. Hope he's grateful…

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 22:07:41 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Write a book, YES! Use both feet. (nt)
Message:
(no text)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 12:00:08 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: Criteria for your recommendations/endorsements?
Message:
Just did searches on the four 'teachers' you mentioned, and Ken Wilbur's endorsement of Saniel Bonder was not, for me, an auspicious beginning. I must honestly say that I was not impressed with any of their web pages, and wonder how you came to your conclusions about their integrity. I am quite sure that they are well-meaning, but I get the same vibe off them as I do from all 'gurus'. Mind expanding a bit on the reasoning and/or personal experiences behind your choices?

Stonor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 07:25:05 (GMT)
From: gwh
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Criteria for your recommendations/endorsements?
Message:
I am only suggesting that self inquiry not be abandoned. I can't recommend or endorse anyone.
My experience indicates that a personal relationship with a guru/teacher is not necessary.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 23:04:17 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: The Mother of God (written by Andrew Cohen's mom)
Message:
Here is a link to a book about Andrew Cohen, written by his mother:

The Mother of God

From one review:

The story here is about the gradual descent of a formerly caring human being into a manipulator who has to have everything his way, and is either oblivious or uncaring about the effects his actions have on the people around him; or perceives those effects as for some greater good that never seems to happen...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 02:39:28 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: The Mother of God (written by Andrew Cohen's mom)
Message:
Way cool, G. One step beyond. Nice to know my gut feeling wasn't too far off the mark. Can't wait to read what else you've dug up. Thank you!

Stonor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 04:06:53 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Andrew Cohen, guru misconduct
Message:
Here's a little more about Andrew Cohen and a lot about guru misconduct:

ALLEGATIONS OF MISCONDUCT

A quote from the page regarding Cohen:

One popular contemporary western guru's mother and former disciple, Luna Tarlo, has even written a book, Mother of God, about her son, Andrew Cohen's, descent into guruhood arrogance. Yet, he and his supporters are pushing hard for a return to reverence for the guru as a fundamental condition for spiritual growth. Well, of course, the guru business is only lucrative when 'the sheep' believe in it sufficiently to give themselves (and their resources) over to another.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 22:52:16 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Saniel Bonder and 'Adi Da'
Message:
It looks like there is a connection between Saniel Bonder and 'Adi Da'. Not a good sign as far as I'm concerned. See The Four Fundamental Questions
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 07:15:31 (GMT)
From: gwh
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Saniel Bonder and 'Adi Da'
Message:
Bonder didn't wake up until he left the hyper masculine , bakti bs of Adi Da's camp. The greatest thing that stands between Adi Da's followers and enlightenment is Adi Da. Sound familiar?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 04:32:47 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: More on Saniel Bonder and 'Adi Da'
Message:
There have been a few new developments on the Da-watching front in the last few years, ranging from the predictable (a new name, Adi Da, 'the Primal Da'?) to the unlikely (Saniel Bonder, one of the most ardent of the guru's devotees and publicists, has set himself up as an enlightened successor to Da, apparently without the approval of the Master).

a quote from The Strange Case of Franklin Jones

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 22:31:42 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Ken Wilbur...
Message:
I did a little searching on Ken Wilbur, here's one page I found where he endorses 'Adi Da' (aka Bubba Free John,etc.) calling him a 'Hero'. Look for 'On Heroes and Cults'.

Here's a site critical of 'Adi Da': The Knee of Daism - Deconstructing Adi Da

While I was searching, I came across this site about Dr. Frederick Lenz:
Rama Lama Ding Dong

Here's a quote from a web page on him called The Sexual Exploiter:

As a spiritual leader he gained trust. To the believers, and there were many, he exuded mystical power as a person who had lived through many past incarnations. His standard line was that, whoever the woman of the moment was, they had been lovers in past lives and that having sex with him again now would speed their spiritual development. The other approach was that he needed to bump them up to his energy level and that sex with him was not really sex.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 02:50:17 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Unreal
Message:
Wonder why gwh hasn't answered my question? (Where is a sarcasm emoticon?) Is he working on propagation for all of them? It must be hard to find a decent job.

(I feel a little guilty about my weak research, but I was in the country all day visiting 'Grandpa' with my sister and niece and nephew) Thank you for fleshing it out!(or would that be flushing, or was gwh fishing us? And what 'k' did he realize?!! - not)

Thank you.

Stonor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 02:51:53 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Yikes--lame guru pick up lines
Message:
that old pick up line that so many gurus seem to use: 'this'll be good for your spiritual development'--sheesh, the oldest line in the book! I'll bet they have been using it for eons. Man, thanks for diggin up this stuff. Seems there is nothing new under the sun when it comes to this guru shit. same old same old.

Wish people would wake up and not give these gurus any of their personal power, money and belief. They (gurus) are just people for god's sake! Fucked up, sexually frustrated, really confused people who feed off of peoples' need to believe in something...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 03:05:30 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: LOL - thought that myself!
Message:
LOL - thought that myself! An old voodoo-type guy tried it on me about 15 years ago - no one else!

Stonor

(I'm sick of eating strawberries! Time to start cooking . . .)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 22:49:22 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: a local case of abuse
Message:
AIn't it crazy, Stonor? I tell ya wouldn't it be great if these old leches were honest--'Hey I am no one special, just a crazy, horny old lech and I want your young flesh' I mean, wouldn't that be refreshing!

Of course it is not funny (and I know you agree with with me on this) to those innocent devotees whose beloved masters fucked them up and abused them this way.

Even gurus of the same sex as the disciple manage to abuse their devotees. There is a buddhist temple in this area and the leader was in charge of this Buddhist nun's so-called life. The nun got pregnant and didn't want the baby so she (the leader) offered to raise it. The nun, when asked about it by the writer of this article for the Wash. Post, said 'well, obviously my great teacher knows far better than I what I should be doing with my life.' SO--can that be called free will that she gave the leader her baby? not at all--it is abuse of power, plain and simple.

I tell ya--spiritual teachers--and the people who put their lives intheir hands--a marriage made not in heaven but in HELL.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 00:52:14 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: a local case of abuse
Message:
(Don't) imagine what we never hear about! But really, there are so many gradations of pick-up lines . . . and yeah, honesty would be refreshing, but it would cut in on their 'take'.

Have you read Margaret Atwood's 'The Handmaid's Tale'? or seen the movie? or been single for a while? And there are other 'things'.

Not just 'spiritual teachers'.

Good talking with you, Helen.

Love,

Stonor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 04:08:18 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: I basically agree, gwh
Message:
I basically agree, gwh, although I know nothing of the people you mention, and still question this type of teacher-centred system. At the same time, I must admit that I have benefitted from meditation and yoga classes given by followers of various teachers for over 25 years, and I will do a search on the names you mentioned - I have not jumped to any absolute conclusions. 'Spiritual awakening' sounds a little too 'instant', complete, and magical for my liking, as well as from my limited understanding and awareness. (BTW, your posting subject might be a bit off-putting - I only clicked on it out of curiosity.)

When people here only talk about 'enjoying' meditation, and how it's fun, or whether or not m is LOTU, I've wondered what some of their motivations were in receiving 'k'. I have begun to understand that his 'marketing' of 'knowledge' (and of course himself as LOTU) has probably played a large part in this. I also think that an acceptance of m as LOTU, and 'k' as his exclusive 'product' has also had a highly negative effect on many 'k' people in terms of what 'whatever-it-is' might possibly be, or mean to us as human beings.

I wonder how many still live in fear, even subconsciously, that he might yank on a chain and pull them all back one day (sorry if my quote is not verbatim). And of course there's the 'rotten vegetable' one, and others I remember having read about. Unspeakably horrible threats, indicating only his desire to enslave his fellow human beings for his personal ends, at very least psychologically, and it seems by extension, physically in terms of 'service' and the financing of his 'druglord' lifestyle. And these threats certainly make it clear that he has no real 'power' or he would NEVER have had any reason to have made such threats.

I appreciate posts like yours, Way's, G's, Peter Howie's, cq's, hamzen's, Anon's, Katie's, Runamok's, and no doubt many others, because I am reassured that this damage is not necessarily permanent. Their consistently gentle good will towards others speaks volumes to me - far more than spiritual, philosophical, or any other kind of purely intellectual musings.

Stonor, the non-anything (I don't think we've met)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:05:17 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Bim/Bjorn/Just curious...
Message:
Bjorn/Bim/Just Curious wrote (to Susan):

'I am a human being'

Sorry if I insulted you.
There are a few things that are not clear to me.
It sounds that both Randy and Judy at this time do not confirm that they told about it to Maharaji. From what you write, it sounds like you have asked them.
Regarding Judy, I asked her a question once, she came straightforward with an answer, but till this day I am not quite sure I understood what she meant, I think Judy was very 'mid-wifish' Is there a possibility that there might have been a misunderstanding?
It is not clear to me what Jagdeo did to you when you were 15.
It is also not clear to me if Maharaji knew about Jagdeo, why would he according to Jethro, just recently form a investigation group to find out about it?
>>>
I replied:

'And so is Maharaji'

This is not my discussion (nor should it be yours) but I'll answer your simplistic, possibly disingenuous question:

It is also not clear to me if Maharaji knew about Jagdeo, why would he according to Jethro, just recently form a investigation group to find out about it?

Are you really so dumb as to imagine a person with 'guilty knowledge' who wanted that fact to remain concealed wouldn't act as if he were innocent of the facts?
You really are in a cult, aren't you?
BTW: Your sneering 'apology' above adds insult to injury, expecially as it is no more than a blatant excuse to carry on firing the intrusive questions. You really are a nasty piece of work. Why don't you ask 'Maharaji' for a copy of his official report, seeing as he is the only source you evidently trust?
>>>

Bim/Bjorn/Just curious (Hey FA's! we have another multi-alias premie here… ) replied:

What you say would be of substance, if the investigation committee was public. But according to Jethro, it was secret and internal?
Could you explain to me why such e secret investigation group should be made if a person knew the facts about the case?
May be there are some other kind of programming that has taken place?

>>
Ham the Man joined in here with:

To cover their arses legally if anything breaks

…you really are in cult thinking mode if that possibility hadn't even occurred to you!!

>>>
And I added:

yawn…

Could you explain to me why such e secret investigation group should be made if a person knew the facts about the case?

(1) Because M only knew some of the facts and wanted to learn all of them..?
(2) So high-placed EV reps can agree to one common story if outside investigators ask questions later..?
(3) So they can assess the potential harm done to EV and work on a damage limitation strategy..?
(4) So all those with potentially damaging information can be identified and sworn to secrecy..?
(5) So M can appear to have 'dealt with the matter', even if he hasn't..?
(6) To try and discover the mood among premies with knowledge of Jagdeo's repulsive activities. Might they be looking to go public..?

It's called thinking, Bjorn. You should try it one day.
>>>

Undaunted, Bjorn presents the following scenario:

this is not called programmed speculation?

Imagine you are a headmaster at a school. There are 2 options; 1. you know about a person who has been abusing children. Would you start a secret investigation to find out about it? Probably not. [me: you damn well would if there were real world personal and financial consequences to consider!]
2. You do not know if rumours that a person has abused children are true or not. Would you start a secret investigation to find out about it? Probably you would.
What might happen: (this is also called speculations)
The person admits and are sent back to India.
The person denies it, but resigns and travels back to India.
There are other options; My point is that speculations do not need to be true.

>>>
The thread is now inactive, but I'd like to reply:

My point is that speculations do not need to be true.

Exactly so! But that was NOT your point. (Or that may now be your point but it isn't how you presented your argument - and your argument is but one of many no less valid, probably stronger speculations which you prefer to ignore…)

You suggested holding a secret investigation was evidence that M knew nothing. It is evidence of nothing. I gave you the alternate possibilities that anyone would come up with if they had no vested interest in defending Maharaji. Holding a secret investigation is what any self-protecting organisation would do first, regardless of whether the man in charge already had some knowledge of what had gone on.

Of all the possibilities there is only one you are prepared to consider valid: the one where M comes out whiter than white. Perhaps M heard only a whisper; perhaps he had heard nothing; perhaps he knew everything - whichever is true is irrelevant. He would still hold an investigation, otherwise people would soon be asking him why he had not done so. (BTW: If this is the same investigation Glen Whittaker referred to in his letter to Anth, it was far from thorough: Neither Susan nor Abi were traced or asked for interviews.)

You and I speculate exactly because M is secretive. Cults are secretive by definition. Why didn't M invite the police to carry out the inquiry? Why was it left to Anth to bring the matter to their attention?

But, for now, just answer me this (to paraphrase Jim): does not Maharaji owe it to Abi, Susan and all of Jagdeo's victims to reveal what he now knows as a result of his inquiry?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 07:56:14 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: You forgot an important one!
Message:
The purpose of the committee could also be to find as many other victims as possible, and assess what they're up to.

And maybe avoid any action from their side by any possible way ....

I'd try that too!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 18:22:05 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Excellent point Jean Michel
Message:
The purpose of the committee could also be to find as many other victims as possible, and assess what they're up to.
And maybe avoid any action from their side by any possible way ....

I agree.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 03:13:03 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Bim/Bjorn/Just curious...
Message:
Good luck, Nigel. I tried down below.
It's like banging your head on a wall.
Good points in your post, though!

VP

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 23:32:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Next move, anyone?
Message:
Let's be constructively destructive, shall we? How about a little brain-storming on what further steps, if any, we might take to squeeze the Hamster a bit. You all saw the MRC letter:

June 9, 2000

Dear Mr. Rawat a.k.a. Maharaji,

We are concerned premies, former premies, and the families and loved ones of both. We are writing to request an honest dialogue with you regarding a number of unresolved issues resulting from an important period in our lives - - a period in which you played a crucial role.

When you first came to the West in 1971, you presented yourself, by your words and your actions, as 'Perfect Master,' a divine being worthy of devotion and worship. Your devotees, in turn, signed over trust funds, gave you extravagant gifts, literally kissed your feet, and approached you with unmitigated awe and reverence. You also threatened your followers with dire circumstances that would befall them should they ever stop practicing your teachings, known as 'Knowledge,' move out of one of your monastic ashrams (prior to when you summarily closed the ashrams in 1983), or even entertain doubts about Knowledge or you. Thus, you created a climate of fear that ultimately limited your followers' personal development.

We, especially those of us who call ourselves former premies, accept our responsibility for allowing ourselves to be led to believe in you as one worthy of worship and devotion. However, you also have a deep moral responsibility to address these issues and to explain publicly your motivations for your behavior, to take responsibility for your actions, and to explain the steps you are taking to ensure that worship of you does not continue or recur. We also feel you have a responsibility to dissuade, without equivocation, your current followers from the notion that you are a more perfect human being than they themselves are.

Some of your former followers feel that Knowledge has some value. Others consider it a quite ordinary set of meditation techniques. We feel, however, that the most honest way to teach Knowledge would be to dismantle all things that are cult-like about your organization, especially the notion that you are a divine being, that you are worthy of worship, or that you have special powers. In fact, we suggest, if you want to continue to teach Knowledge in the 21st century, that it would be brave and revolutionary for you to demonstrate real leadership by dismantling and purging all of the cult-like aspects from your organization and your leadership role within it.

Specifically, the first step should be to honestly address the past by taking full responsibility for presenting yourself as a 'Perfect Master,' worthy of worship and devotion. All familiar with you know that you were groomed from childhood to play this role. Nevertheless, you are now 42 years old and have been an American citizen for almost 25 years. The time has long since passed when you should have openly declared that your claims about your divinity, made as an adolescent and as a young adult, were simply not true. The honest declaration of your errors, and admission that you are a human being with all of the qualities and flaws that constitute the human condition, would undo much of what is most cult-like about you and your organization. It might even earn you the respect of the world outside your organization in a way you have never dreamed possible.

While we are aware that you have initiated certain changes to eliminate some of the Hindu trappings of your organization, we are very concerned that you continue to reinforce in your followers the belief that you are divine. For example, as late as 1997, you allowed your followers to line up and kiss your feet in Australia. What other conclusion can one reach about a person who allows his followers to kiss his feet? Moreover, based on our interactions with your current followers, many of them, especially those who received Knowledge in the 70s and 80s, still believe you are divine. Since they are predisposed to believe this, you are in the best position to dissuade them, not just by your words but also by your actions.

We believe that such actions would benefit your stated aim of teaching Knowledge to anyone who is sincerely interested. With the advent of the Internet, your ex-followers are now communicating in significant numbers with each other and to others about you and your past. We believe that this extensive interest is due mainly to the fact that you have failed to address these issues and put them behind you. Until you do so, they will continue to haunt you publicly. We are already seeing many people who were interested in Knowledge lose interest when they read about your past on the Internet. They are disillusioned because that information was not disclosed to them by you or your instructors in the aspirant process. As more people become connected to the Internet, this process will only accelerate, significantly undermining your mission.

Besides clarifying your role, we suggest that you transform your organization so that it becomes the first 'former' cult in history to institute safeguards against ever becoming a cult again. For example, members might receive a text outlining the characteristics of cults and mind control and how to recognize them. Such a text could become required reading before you agree to teach anyone. We believe this would make your followers more independent, with greater opportunity for personal growth. Perhaps your teachings might have value, on their own merits, without a cult-like belief system. You have a great opportunity. We urge you to consider it.

This is our challenge to you. We request that you step down from your pedestal and join your brothers and sisters in the human race. Find your place among us. Treat us as equals with the love and respect you always claimed you had for us. Be one of us. It would free us and those premies still trapped in worshipping you. It might free you in many ways as well. There is so much to be gained by everyone.

Please respond to this letter by stating your commitment to achieving the goals described herein, and by creating a forum where an honest dialogue can take place. Of course, no response from you to this sincere, respectful and reasonable request will be seen as a response in and of itself.

Thank you.

Maharaji Responsibility Campaign
MaharajiResponsibilityCampaign@hotmail.com

Not perfect, of course, but pretty damned good, in many respects at least.

Anyway, my understanding is that the cult persists nonetheless. So what should we all do? Anyone? Live and let live? Bake a cake? Start a fight club? What?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 21:32:37 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Next move, anyone?
Message:
Dear Jim,
We ARE making our next moves, and the next one, and the next one. At some point, when I can write a little more cogently, I shall take my one (I hope I get at least one) chance to post on first class. LE
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 03:01:58 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Next move, anyone?
Message:
Surprise , surprise Jim. Perhaps? I loudly applaud the letter above. I agree with all of it except one point,which I shall express soon and I would like to add a line or three.
That is not a perfect letter but it is pretty damn good. I agree. You probably don't care what I have to say. As you have expressed at times. Or perhaps you are more flexible than that. Whatever. I'll call a spade a spade.
My one disagreement is quite predictable. I believe we are all part-divine. That's all. So I would have Maharaji renounce any 'special' divine status in regards to himself.
I would add to your excellent letter;

Maharaji, I would urge you to encourage those who follow you to discuss openly once again. Let them share their own experiences and understandings. And you too listen to them.
Maharaji, connected with the above request, I would ask you to radically change the focus on you. To slowly but surely wean those who are overly or even totally dependent on you away from this dependence. I realise that to do this suddenly and without due process could have devistating results for many. Therefore I would insist on you moving in thar desired direction, as a major priority. Deconstruct the philosophy of the triangle. Deconstruct the rigid adherence of the hierarchy that supports this 'cult' set up. Deconstruct the images that keep your followers in degrees of bondage. Keep the essential Message,but deconstruct the packaging. How? By communicating with more radical honesty.

Not perfect either Jim, but that's my threepence worth right now.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 01:45:56 (GMT)
From: DV
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Next move, anyone?
Message:
How about 4 or 5 good questions or statements anyone of us could stand up and yell in front of m at his next meeting before being dragged out. Objectives could be: embarrass m, expose p's to good questions/sources, expose jagdeo, embarrass p's.

I'd just hate to get jailed for a misdemeanor, tho:)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 03:19:22 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: DV
Subject: Next move, anyone?
Message:
With the media there, of course...right?

I want to know what am I suposse to do with 450 video tapes?? That was a lot of money the hamster got...I confess: I bought many of them: The Lord of The Universe was here and our 'community' needed many, many videos, as I heard in the phone conferences of Elan Vital, we needed a 'good video library' to propagate 'His' Knowledge...There are videos for all ocassions, and as taught to me by 'my superiors', I had to learn the content of them to find the appropiate video when a person had questions about a subject. An example was when a new person asked questions about the meaning of the word master, we were to offer a particular video. All this done 'natural', 'clear', as David Smith loved to define 'that state'...of devotion, clarity... I was the aspirant contact for few years...Now I have videos coming out...No. I don't watch them. Why should I brake my TV? LOL

That would be the place to be, if it ever happens...Where is it going to be?

SB

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 01:47:19 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: DV
Subject: Free defense attys though
Message:
There are at least two ex premie defense attys here who would defend you, dv!

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:49:57 (GMT)
From: Hector
Email: Hector@nospam.com
To: Jim
Subject: Next move, anyone?
Message:
So what should we all do? Anyone? Live and let live? Bake a cake? Start a fight club? What?

What about regaining your dignity and dedicating some of your valuable time to a worthwile cause? I'm sure your are mature enough to understad this.

Being against Maharaji. Knowledge or ANYTHING else does not do anybody any good.

Being FOR something can bring you some level of satisfaction.

= Hector

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 23:34:17 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Hector
Subject: That took guts...
Message:
Hector,
Whoa - took guts to say that around here.
I didn't think it was condescending or arrogant- It's all in where you're coming from when you're reading it.(You could have left out the mature part.)

To me it's just a fact. Yes, someday, I may not be following Guru Maharaj Ji ... so what am I going to do? Put him and everybody that's around him down?? There is a purpose to everything- there are no mistakes. We were all presented with M for a reason - was it then to become bitter and angry ?- -maybe for some, yes,for awhile - to get their autonomy back.That's a natural thing.

You pick yourself up and contribute to humanity - that's the ticket.(Eventually,one day. :)

Elaine

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 10:08:51 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Hector
Subject: That took delusion...
Message:
Hector wrote: Being against Maharaji. Knowledge or ANYTHING else does not do anybody any good.

JohnT enquires:You say it does no good to oppose wrongdoing? But what do you think you are trying to do?

This type of delusional 'stinking thinking' is common in cult victims. They cannot see beyond their own minds. The sins they decry in others are their own sins.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 22:16:10 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: I liked that!! True nt
Message:
Love and peace to all
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 03:41:39 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: To Hector and Elaine
Message:
What we do here, in case you guys haven't noticed, is help others get off the cult or avoid getting involved in it and THAT IS A GOOD CAUSE.

Elaine, again, read your posts. They continue being strange. You don't have to say that shit!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 04:01:49 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Watch Elaine's brain try to figure something out
Message:
There is a purpose to everything- there are no mistakes.

Okayyyyyyy, so long as we understand each other. Yes, of course, there can be no question about this law of the universe. It just is. I mean, haven't you ever read anything? Shakti Gawain, let's say? Or maybe Lousie Hay? Or any other new age luminary, cause they're all saying it. This is heady stuff and Elaine's got it nailed.

We were all presented with M for a reason - was it then to become bitter and angry ?- -maybe for some, yes,for awhile - to get their autonomy back.That's a natural thing.

So this is the funny part. Elaine's talking to herself trying to make sense of nonsense. Okay, am I being unfair? Like maybe it ISN'T gorgeously funny to see a grown adult get stuck in this kind of shadow-boxing 'analysis'? Like maybe I'm an asshole or something? I dunno. Seems funny to me anyway.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 22:14:13 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Watch Elaine's brain try to figure something out
Message:
Elaine is not interested in becoming honest with herself, so, what can WE expect? I read many of her posts, because I wanted to be fair, I didn't wanted to be biased by her early posts, but now, having seen enough, is all over. Nobody is there to answer our questions, Jim. 'There', is no interest for a fair discussion of anything...She just here, going around like a butterfly, in head spreading love and widsdom, when in reality, you know about blind spots: She can see herself. What she doesn't realize is that, at least in my case, I wanted to help her see her superiority fallacies and she doesn't care. As all premies I know, they are only interested in the little world they have created in their heads, in their beliefs, not in logic or truth.

She goes around saying how good of a person she is, how her friends tell her so, and preaching compassion and understanding about Raina, but there she goes doing the shit herself, shutting 'doors' to you, cq, me, and others, because she can't stand the heat of our questions. She is interested in personal growth as I'm in getting a nail inserted in my head. LOL. Oh! But she better stop naming me...she is using me now, as today, as examples for 'meanness'...What does she knows about me? She can't even read my posts and interpret them! I gave up...but again, she better stop using my name and she better stop talking satsang shit because then, I will embarrass her with the reminding of what some of us are coming from. Compassion my ass, Elaine. You have none for us. You are biased against some of us, simply because you are not who you think you are. You are a very silly woman, that is all. IMHO. No anger. The truth.

Hi Jim!! I agreee!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 04:39:54 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: At least 2X I was 'callous', SB ;-) (nt)
Message:
At least 2X I was 'callous', SB ;-) (nt)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 11:02:33 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: At least 2X I was 'callous', SB ;-)
Message:
I don't understand what you are telling me... :0

Would you tell me now?

SB

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 12:01:02 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: At least 2X I was 'callous', SB ;-)
Message:
Hi SB!

You wrote,

she is using me now, as today, as examples for 'meanness'...

I can relate! ;-)

Nice and quiet around here lately, isn't it? :-)

Stonor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 13:29:18 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Yes, very nice....well, almost: Hect and Keith ;-)
Message:
love throwing beutiful concepts around, but hey, theirs I can handle...is always refreshing to be reminded why we left cultish thinking behind, no? Imaging to go all your life dreaming?

All I needed to know I learned it in kindergarten...yeah, that applies to me...well, almost, I'm working in not being so blunt/rude... ;)

Have a happy sunday!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 15:22:30 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Yes, very nice....well, almost: Hect and Keith ;-)
Message:
I agree - It's gwh who's irritating me a bit at the moment ;-)

And did I hear you mention working in a garden? I'm hoping the rain will hold off long enough for me to get a bit more work done in mine today.

Have a happy Sunday too!

Stonor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 18:48:51 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Yes, very nice....well, almost: Hect and Keith ;-)
Message:
I haven't read much about gwh and yes, he's a very interesting voice around here...We deserve satsang and explanations. We exes must go away, the lord doesn't like it...so, the devotees take their presence here as a service to Lard...Can it be?

Yes, mi little garden... that is one of my hobbies, flowers, plants, and no, GMJ didn't put me in contact with nature;I loved plants and nature in general since I can remember...I has been rainning a lot here too. Now is sunny but all is too wet to work there, I haven't finished it yet either...Is fun to see all grow, no?

Take care, love,

SB

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 01:17:25 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Yes, very nice....well, almost: Hect and Keith ;-)
Message:
HI SB,

Yes, it can be tiresome, but it is as you describe; you are not mistaken - the 'devotees' fulfill their roles.

SB responded:

Yes, mi little garden... that is one of my hobbies, flowers, plants, and no, GMJ didn't put me in contact with nature;I loved plants and nature in general since I can remember...I has been rainning a lot here too. Now is sunny but all is too wet to work there, I haven't finished it yet either...Is fun to see all grow, no?

Me too. It's more than 'fun' to see our plants grow, no? Es la verdad - en todos interpretationes. Me gusto mucho hablar en este idioma! :-) Y hablar con alguna quienne gustas una jardina como mia!

Take care, love,

Stonor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 21:23:28 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Hector
Subject: Condescending and arrogant, Hector
Message:
What about regaining your dignity and dedicating some of your valuable time to a worthwile cause? I'm sure your are mature enough to understad this.

Why do you suppose Jim, or any other ex-premie, is NOT involved in socially valuable enterprises or good causes?

Many would argue that the MRC is a very good cause, but forget that for a moment...

I know a number of exes who are involved in work or spare-time activities which do go a way towards making the world a better place. I shall not name names or list causes as it might look pretty tacky. (And besides, a premie called 'Orlando' once challenged Mike on the forum to reveal what good he was doing for the world. Mike replied with a list of activities as long as your arm, and Orlando rebuked him for 'showing off', when all he had done was answer Orlando's question.)

Believe me, the exes I have in mind are doing an awful lot more than they were when their 'service' to humanity was just about fundraising for your multi-millionaire guru. In fact, as a premie, I didn't know a single premie (self included) who was involved in anything apart from work, sleep and the practice of K.

I bet those involved in the MRC campaign waste a lot less of their time harrassing the hamster than you waste watching videos, travelling to events or sitting non-productively beneath a blanket.

And why shouldn't they? It is, after all, none of your business.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 01:01:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Hector
Subject: But, Hector, this is my calling!
Message:
Hector,

When I was in my late 30's (not so long ago, I assure you) a voice came to me and said 'Get the Hamster!' Do you think I wanted that in my life? Of course not. So I resisted. I mowed the lawn, played bridge with the kids and basically jsut read the newspaper. I was in denial. A few months later, it happened again. 'Get the Hamster!' Again, I didn't know what to make of it although I did develop a small itchy patch of skin between my shoulder blades. I guess I should have known but, yes, I was in denial. Then, two days later, it happened again. I was in a bar drinking a particularly strong French Canadian beer, Maudite, when the voice truly overwhelmed me.

'GET THE HAMSTER, ASSHOLE!

'.

I don't know if it was the voice or the beer but I completely lost control of ALL my bodily functions and then and there understood the force fo the power inside. Indeed, everyone sitting with me must hve noticed it to, judging by the way the looks in their eyes as they shifted away. Yes, I was drooling but I was also making perfectly good sense as I found myself mouthing the words to soem old premie song I'd long ago forgotten and now have forgotten once again. But I'll tell you this, it was something about 'the Master' and then, as if by magic (well I'm a philosophical materialist, you know, so we best not go there), I foudn myself turning the words around in my mouth. ''The Master'....'The Hamster'....yes, that was it! I had a mission, then, and have cherished it ever since. I must 'get the Hamster'. It is my duty. I live for nothing else.

And you? What's Hector all about, huh?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 13:30:04 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Trivia Quiz
Message:
Who is the owner of the Maudite (The Damned) brewery? (Just checking - if you don't know, you might be surprised)

And can you actually buy it in Victoria now? The last time I drank it was with one of my friends who moved there the last time she visited Montreal. Neither of us liked it much. It leaves a strange itchy feeling in the back of both our throats.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 13:50:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: 1) Don't know; 2) chill it in the freezer 1st (nt
Message:
fff
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:14:03 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: answer
Message:
1) Robert Charlebois
2) Thanks for the suggestion, but still not sure that I'll try it again, although I LOVE the packaging!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:33:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: 1) Well, I knew it wasn't Harmonium; 2) u shld (nt
Message:
ccccc
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:40:53 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 1) Harmonium ... Yuck - no way! LOL 2) maybe(nt)
Message:
aaaaaaaaa
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 01:39:59 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Wow the voice came to you
Message:
three times tekking you of your mission.
That happened to someone else I know.......I justcan't remember their name though!!!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 01:26:15 (GMT)
From: Hector
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: But, Hector, this is my calling!
Message:
You lost me there.... I think you a few more of these beers...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 23:39:13 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Hector
Subject: But, Hector, this is my calling!
Message:
Hector,
Well, I got it and it was actually quite funny.

Don't lose your sense of humour, Hector.

Elaine

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 01:25:45 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Note to self
Message:
Must try Maudite beer.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 06:53:09 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What to do now
Message:
Jim I do wish you were serious with your request. I think you are but the replies seem to water down the focus.

I would suggest we brainstorm and sort out what individuals can do on their own and what we can do in small groups and then then then! what we can do as a coalition of exs.

Then we would see which one of the group plans are feasible- supbject to careful analysis, based on the expertise we have around and then then then! start a campaign to bring the hamster to the hole.

I think that over the past year there has been enough evidence/statements and enough committd people willing to form a good action group but it needs coordinating by a small team.

The letter is a prime example of what can be done by consensus.

Of course through all we would need to continue the forum to facilitate fence line premies to be de-loused.

I think of things like researching what other ex-cult members have made suits and a sycronized media campaign- then there is always the recent forum closures to exploit.

Wistfull sigh
Zelda

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 07:55:13 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: What to do now? Keep doing what we've been doing
Message:
My understanding of what's going on now is that it's the result of having all this information available to everybody - basically the exes' websites, and this forum up.

Did you imagine this 3 years ago?

EV and Rawat are K.O., but still standing.

There is a lot more that can be done, specially on some parts of EV and Rawat's activities that are not so well documented yet.

There is a lot of documentation and info available, could be worked on, in order to present it so that anybody can understand these hidden parts of the game.

There are some talented writers here ...

And I don't doubt we'll have more participants here and more exes spilling the beans!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 09:43:03 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: What to do now? Keep doing what we've been doing
Message:
ya I know you are right but I am a c**pe research freak. Maybe a mixture of action. It may be combination of the status quo and asomething else.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 09:49:12 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Yeah, tape into private communication systems!
Message:
That could be done ......

They have a nice network, with lots of interesting stuff. Want some phone# and passwords?

By email of course!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 02:38:15 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Yeah, tape into private communication systems!
Message:
Jean Michael

Tap or tape?
I can barely do this forum and my emails so I would leave the tapping/taping to the more adept. Although I love to hear the findings and agree that the more it is available for viewing here and wherever else we can get it the better.
Like some memos revealing Mahahahs money-hungry ways. The covert way he asks for donations is a good one too- what does 'keep in touch mean to the aspirants and premies AND 'show your appreciation'

And I would love to have the leaflet/form that invites premies to fill in -in order to arrange automatic donations.

I know exs working in the field that have no acess to computers that could use some good stuff like that in hard copy.

Misty eyed aspirants find it hard to fathom that they are bieng duped unless it is illustrated to them by the evidence.

always
Zelda

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 10:09:09 (GMT)
From: JtF
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Yeah, tape into private communication systems!
Message:
Are you aware of their FIRST CLASS private e-mail system?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 13:01:10 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JtF
Subject: of course !!! can you still access it? (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 13:36:13 (GMT)
From: JtF
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Good! Thought I was the only one (nt)
Message:
asdf
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 22:40:55 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: I've noticed
Message:
that you are posting a fair few 'angry responses', expressed in few words. This is happening to me too. I was writing a letter to my brother, and when I tried to tell him I had left the devotional cult, my best effort was to say that I called him the golden hamster now! In the earlier stages, I could talk and reason quite effectively, now I just want to throw a few mud pies!

Yesterday a friend, employee, previous 'service buddy', came over. He is aware that I have moved on, not that we have spoken, but because, even when he rang me to tell me about the latest satellite feed, I didn't go. We had some work to do, we focussed on that, and did it well, and our relationship was clearer, easier and more comfortable than before.

He is a kind and intelligent man, I hope one day we will be able to talk about it. LE

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 12:38:26 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: I've noticed
Message:
Hi Lotus Eater,

it's coming up to two years since I formally resigned from the cult and became a 'hate filled, totally confused Ex'. I too have noticed a change in my reactions to the cult and its confused leader.

It's like Maharaji is a big, plastic, blow up model, filled with helium, floating high in the air. When you quit, the model starts to deflate and sink to the ground, but it doesn't happen straight away.

If I'm honest with myself, I still don't see him as an ordinary human being. I sometimes find myself feeling guilty about criticising him in the most mundane way, like calling him the Hamster for example. It's ridiculous, because 'hamster' is such an inoffensive word that you could call anybody without upsetting them. So why should I feel wierd about calling Maharaji the hamster?

My feelings are still rearranging themselves as I get used to being an ordinary human being, rather than a devotee of the living lord.

But it feels good to be on the way out. I've never, for a single second, regretting escaping from his introverted, secretive little cult.

Anth the still unravelling.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 20:58:40 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Thank you for saying that
Message:
I can still vividly remember wondering if I would still love sunshine and birds and blue skies! But the moment when I realised I had finally knocked him off the pedestal I had him on was very satisfying!LE
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 15:39:39 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: Thank you for saying that
Message:
Sorry I've been meaning to post something to you for a couple of days but I've been very busy and found it difficult to get to the computer.

Yes, I have been feeling a fiery response to the issues at hand. I think that I am trying to be a real person and let go of the idea of love and spirituality that I've believed in for all my adult life. I'm at an impasse right now, where all my belief systems seem to have crashed and I'm totally disillusioned with all of my life. This has resulted in the temporary annulment of my nice guy personna. Well I trust it's temporay, otherwise I'll be divorced soon too!!

For the first time in my life I'm an agnostic, but I admit that's not easy for me to be. I've always had a faith that miracles are possible in life and it's pretty hard to be a pragmatic realist.

A premie friend called round yesterday and told me he was going to a program with an instructor ( one of the old Indian favorites ) and would I like to go. I told him that I wanted to watch the European soccer championships ; and anyway didn't he know that I wasn't involved anymore. He said that he too wished that he didn't have to go to the prog. and could watch the football but he HAD to go as he HAD to do service. Boy I am glad I'm free of that HAVE TO stuff.

So my friend I don't intend to get fooled again.

All the best. Hal

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 20:56:49 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Bully for Balyogeshwar?
Message:
Remarkable thought:

It's just occured to me that, if Elan Vital really wants to propagate the 'Knowledge', they could. And they could do it a lot more successfully than at present.

The funny thing is -you know what their biggest liability is?


Or rather who ....

... why - the old 'Prince of Peace', Perfect Master, Balyogeshwar Prem Pal Singh Rawat hisself.

Hah!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 18:35:33 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Yuck! I'm being probed!
Message:
As I write this someone (most likely Bob Jacobs) from Maharaji's law firm Milbank, Tweedy, et al. is looking at the OFFLINE version of the Roger's House of Maharaji Drek.

I feel so violated.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 00:01:31 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Yuck! I'm being probed!
Message:
Roger,

Sometimes I don't know when you are joking or talking seriously. I hope the best for you!! I read always your posts, if it means anything...You have my support. I have no objections to the mockery: He deserves it!

Love,

SB

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 21:30:17 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Yuck! I'm being probed!
Message:
Dear Rog,
Sorry about this. I'll be hoping it works out in your favor!
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 19:43:01 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Yuck! I'm being probed!
Message:
Hi Rog -
Very yucky feeling! It will be very interesting to hear the results of the probe, if you even get to know what they are.

Does Bob Jacobs really work for that law firm? This is a detail that hasn't come out, if you're not just joking.

Take care -
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 19:54:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Katie and Roger
Message:
Hi guys,

Yes, Jacobs works there. Remember, I talked to him myself a month ago. He denies being a premie and was your typical tight-lipped lawyer type. Like me, of course. :)

So what exactly's going on, Rog? Has your server (or former server?) told you about this? What's happening?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 23:33:14 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: Damn it, Jim, it IS about me!
Message:
Jim, if you'd spend a little less time on the Internet and start paying more attention to me you'd know exactly what's going on and you'd know that it IS all about me! But no! And you never showed up at the Empress either.

Thanks to Jean-Michel the faithful archivist for collecting and presenting the entire saga. J-M has got it Here as 'I have not yet been to fight' where I present the legal wrangling between me and my ISP and the behind the scenes Milbank who showed up poking about my offline website today. I have my sources and not a leaf moves without my knowing. I need to issue a response to the letter from the ISP lawyer today.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:05:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Boy, did u really say all those things about Him?
Message:
I can't believe some of the stuff you had on your site, Roger. I don't know if oyu noticed but there was even this weird picture of a Pinnochio-like figure doing the fifth technique in front of a Rubenesque picture of the Lord and all without a blanket! Really, I'm not kidding. You just had to click the M&M and there it was.

So yeah, I tried to warn you, didn't I? Now, Roger, let's face it, you're fucked. You know, after all this sophomoric wing-testing and all that, in the end we all know there really is a God and that Maharaji is his representative on earth. So what are you going to do, Roger? It's not as if you were simply caricaturing a public figure and are completely protected by free speech and fair comment laws. That only takes care of this world. What about the next one?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 02:22:57 (GMT)
From: Roger Judas eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: Worse than being Pubic Enemy No. 1
Message:
Yeah, sure, you betcha!

I'm facing the fact that not only am I going to get fucked by this fatso of the heralded return of Christ, but I'm going to get faced fucked by the omni-impotent dud while being legally restrained by his Hanuman, Bob Jacobs.

Jim, I thought you were my lawyer. Why did you let me say and do all that bad stuff?

Sheesh!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 23:55:42 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: well then, plug all known holes and...
Message:
Whatever you do, RELAX. (it'll hurt less)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 02:25:38 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Selene
Subject: and wouldn't you know it, I'm off my meds
Message:
Dang, gonna have to resort to huffing to get me through this.

Or maybe I should dig out my baragon and meditate tonight?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 03:07:53 (GMT)
From: Seleneie
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: do what you must
Message:
Hope it's a well constructed baragon.
Best wishes :)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 03:47:27 (GMT)
From: Roger Really Bad eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Seleneie
Subject: I wonder if HE'd let me...
Message:
fuck his tits?

Sorry, Forum Administrators. I know that this is a family site and all, but...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 07:26:42 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Roger Really Bad eDrek
Subject: It's OK Roger...
Message:
...this site promotes safe sex.

FA

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 13:49:35 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: What about Raina?
Message:
Can you please explain what happened? Why did you decided to delete all her posts? I think I know the answer, but I would like to hear it from you. Thanks much!

SB

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:39:26 (GMT)
From: FA
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: What about Raina?
Message:
SB,

Continual disruption, aggressive posts, suggestion someone commits suicide, possible libel, some of her posts could be interpreted as encouraging paedophilia, several complaints from regular forum members.

As I said to Elaine, I prefer to discuss this by email.

FA

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 22:49:49 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: Thanks nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 15:12:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: Thanks again, FA's
Message:
If I ever get that bad you can shoot me too. (Figuratively).
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 03:59:23 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Roger Really Bad eDrek
Subject: but why do you need a baragon for that Roger?
Message:
Oh I may be getting too personal.
It's ok if you can't tell.

yeah I am gonna get into the most deleted 2000 if this goes on.
but at least it will not be me, it will be 'all about us'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 19:57:58 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Katie and Roger
Message:
Somehow I missed that, Jim. Interesting that he's 'not a premie' when he appears to be on the board of directors of so many premie-based organizations.

I really hope Roger gets some answers to - SPECIFIC ones, for a change. I'm especially interested in the 'religious documents' that he supposedly had pirated for his site.

BTW, Roger, thanks for filing that whatever (I cannot remember the exact name right now, sorry). I know it was a lot of work, and I hope it bears fruit.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 19:23:07 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Should we email him??????????????!!!!!!!!!
Message:
just kidding
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 15:50:28 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Keith - A reminder
Message:
Keith,
Yesterday you wrote:

Hope you are not getting too affected/infected by all the petty bitterness and callous disregard for other peoples feelings that occurs commonly here, Elaine.

I asked you why you hang around here if you feel this way, and you lied and said you didn't have time to answer. You mentioned I might remind you to answer when you have more time.

So here is the reminder... Why Keith, in light of your feelings that there is so much 'petty bitterness and callous disregard for other people's feelings' here, do you continue to hang around?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:22:50 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Keith - A reminder
Message:
Thanks a zillion Powerman for the reminder. I just knew you had it in you. Seriously though (well, mostly serious) I've been looking at this question. You are not the only one who has asked me why I hang around. Even close friends question my state of sanity. lol.
The reasons I've seen so far are; as I wrote in another post, it sharpens my mind, refines my communication skills and I enjoy the challenge. But there are deeper reasons too. I feel almost compelled to challenge injustice and inbalance at times,and as an ex premie, I have unresolved issues that I'm still working through. This is my therapy center. Anything wrong with that? Why are you here Powerman? Why is anyone here? Is this forum only for those who's reasons for contributing fall into some narrow range of criteria? Answer me that if you would please.
I happen to feel that the underlying energies of this forum are inbalanced. Alright? Am I allowed to feel that? Must I conform to your standard or set of reasons(mind set) for contributing to this.
I am very critical of many things about Maharaji, premiedom, New Age, Spirituality and the like. Trouble is, I'm so stereotyped that I rarely get around to airing that side of things. That's what tends to happen around here. Many realise that. I'm sure many feel a lot about this place but are too intimidated to post anything critical.Many would not choose to enter what can feel like a lions den. Is there an ex premie party line?
Why am I here? Another reason which is personal but valid to me. I dislike bullies and unjustified rudeness or violence. Or mediocre small mindedness or pettyness. Yes , these are my judgements. You have yours. Everyone judges. Everyone has I would feel complex reasons for posting here. You single me out powerman as a way of insinuating that I shouldn't be here. I think so! Isn't it?
Why do you use the name powerman? What does that mean for you?
Anyway. There. Have I anwsered your question? Would you like an invitation to the Great Debate for true moderates? (Joke!)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 23:38:43 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Keith - A reminder
Message:
Keith,
Some responses to your responses:

1. You could sharpen your mind and refine your communication skills at many other forums that are not so distasteful to you.

2. If you feel compelled to challenge injustice there are more distasteful forums with greater injustice to challenge.

3. If this is your therapy center and it helps you work through your issues, why are you moaning about all the petty bitterness and callous disregard.

4. Why are other people here? Most people think the guru treats his followers with 'callous disregard'.

5. No, Keith, there isn't a narrow range of criteria for why someone would contribute here, but generally, the main requisite would be that it's an okay 'place' to be. Your brittle protests would be reason enough to leave.

6. Actually, I'm not insinuating you shouldn't be here, you are insinuating that.

7. I use the name Powerman because I'm 5'1', have a tiny penis, and need to compensate.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 04:17:31 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Penis size.
Message:
1. You could sharpen your mind and refine your communication
skills at many other forums that are not so distasteful to you.

I like this forum. I like challenge. As for my distaste, doesn't a little sourness help one to appreciate the sweetness?
And I'm pleased you have found compensations for your tiny penis. Anyway I've been told it's not really the size that matters but how one uses it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 21:05:08 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: down to the nitty gritty
Message:
Keith, you say that this is your therapy centre -
sounds to me like a perfectly valid use of the opportunity that the Forum represents.

But one thing doesn't really gel - how come you seem to be always advocating moderation and, for want of a better word - diplomacy.

Therapy, if it's real, gets pretty heavy when it needs to. Unlike fence-sitting.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 22:39:04 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: down to the nitty gritty
Message:
Of course Cq, therapy sessions can get heated. I accept that. I'm not advocating some softly softly approach. Perhaps just a little more restaint. And consciousness. I've been guilty to in going over the top. But it is usually an out of control inter-action that happens. Most of us here are guilty. Me included. I believe that a part of the theraputic process includes growing up a bit and taking more responsibility for ones own actions(and words). Not agreeing with each other. That will never happen. But realising things. About others but also about oneself. I do not see in any shape or form that I'm fence sitting and that is certainly not what I'm advocating. Although there are times when it's necessary to sit on the fence for a spell.
I never used the word 'diplomacy' btw. Anyway, I generally enjoy your posts. Cheers.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 17:38:09 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Keith - my feelings
Message:
Keith -
I have avoided posting to you because you posted the single most nasty flaming post to me that I have EVER gotten on this forum (and under an fake name, to boot). Yes, I know you apologized by saying you were trying to 'mirror' something or other, but I didn't provoke you, and it was EXTREMELY hurtful. Basically, even though you are now an ex-premie and seem to have changed, I still think you have a superior attitude to most of the people who post here.

You wrote:
I happen to feel that the underlying energies of this forum are inbalanced. Alright? Am I allowed to feel that? Must I conform to your standard or set of reasons(mind set) for contributing to this.

You also wrote that you felt compelled to post contrarily to this. Frankly, I find this very judgemental and superior, as if you think you can control the forum, or 'right' unbalanced energies by the way that you post. When you posted here a year or so ago, I felt that you were basically interested in challenging Jim all the time, and that by doing that, IMHO, you revealed that you saw him as some kind of alpha male figure TO be challenged. This, of course, is my feeling, and as such could be wrong, but I feel you are still doing it.

Jim does not control this forum - in fact, NOBODY controls this forum except the FA's, who IMHO are very inconspicuous 99% of the time. They certainly don't act as personalities and express opinions about Maharaji - they are careful to remain anonymous. I get very tired of people talking about the forum like it is controlled by some group of people who influence it and that they are the lone rebels against this - I think it's condescending, and it's also just plain wrong.

You wrote:
I am very critical of many things about Maharaji, premiedom, New Age, Spirituality and the like. Trouble is, I'm so stereotyped that I rarely get around to airing that side of
things. That's what tends to happen around here.

I think you are stereotyping yourself if you don't write about what you really feel, but instead craft your posts to try and influence the forum in one way or another. This is RE-active, not active. I would feel a lot better about you if you would come down to earth and write about what YOU feel, what YOU are going through, both sides of it, whatever, instead of continually pronouncing judgement and making generalizations about 'the forum' and 'ex-premies'. Truthfully, this makes you seem as if you feel superior to said 'forum' and 'ex-premies'

You also wrote:
I'm sure many feel a lot about this place but are too intimidated to post anything critical.Many would not choose to enter what can feel like a lions den. Is there an ex premie party line?

For one thing, this is a condescending statement - do you presume to speak for people who you assume are too intimidated to speak up? Of course I know that some people are intimidated by the forum - I have corresponded with a lot of them. And I have posted their comments on here when appropriate. A lot of these people have ended up posting here, and their posts have been quite well received.

Also, the ex-premie 'party line' is in your head. In a way, I feel that you would like there to BE a 'party line' so that you could rebel against it, but the fact is that people here feel differently about many aspects of Maharaji and knowledge and DO express that on this forum. Making comments about 'party lines', 'colored shirts and badges', 'fascism' etc. is stereotyping and generalizing, and I, for one, object to being stereotyped and generalized about like this.

You also wrote:
Why am I here? Another reason which is personal but valid to me. I dislike bullies and unjustified rudeness or violence. Or mediocre small mindedness or pettyness.

I don't like those things, either, Keith, and I doubt that the great majority of people who post here do. Of course, I'd like it if there was no rudeness, bullying, violence, pettyness, etc. on the forum, but that's life. Read my post to Elaine (my feelings about Raina and the forum) below. A lot of people here are hurting and you are just going to get rudeness, etc. when people are hurt and reactive.

Anyway, to be blunt, I am VERY tired of you writing posts about the forum and about ex-premies in general, and I often skip your posts because of this. As I said earlier, I wish you would write more about how you feel PERSONALLY without feeling that you have to act as some kind of figurehead here.

Sincerely,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 22:28:41 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Keith - my feelings
Message:
Katie, firstly let me get out of the way, your mentioning of my past and the 'worst ever flaming post' that you've ever received.
The entire scenario that led to me posting under many different names back then and posting some 'way, way out' posts, for me at least are complex. I don't see any good purpose to digging all that up now. In one of my posts fairly recently I expressed that I now see that I went too far then. And playing around with various psuedonyms was not correct. But I had been 'outed' by Jim and blocked by FA in that phase too. Not to mention extremely provoked often over a long period of time. Yes. I did say sorry to you back then. If you choose to harbour feelings about that I cannot do anything about it. I'm sorry I vented my anger onto you at that time. I shouldn't have done so.
You have then gone onto make a number of other criticisms of me , which is fine by me, but you yourself also admit that you often skip my posts. I would say that your remarks are some way off the mark. You cannot choose to be selective about reading my posts then claim you know what it is I'm posting about.
I have posted about a great many different topics. Including about Maharaji, premies, and related issues. And would not shirk responding to any questions directed to me about such things. Nor am I shy about revealing my 'feelings' about anything.
I will read your post to Elaine about Raina.
As for the other points you make about me and what I contribute, what can I say, Katie. You feel that way. Those are your perceptions of me. What do I think. I think you have a distorted perception about me. I could get into an analysis about you too. I really could but I wont because overall I do like you. I don't feel you are a bad person.
I shall consider more deeply some of those remarks you have made about me. I always do when criticism is expressed with some degree of civility.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 22:35:34 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Keith - my feelings
Message:
Keith -
Of course I don't know EVERYTHING you post about. I do not have time to read the whole forum anymore. I sincerely doubt, however, that I am skipping ONLY the posts which reveal your true feelings, and reading ONLY the posts which criticize the forum.

Re the post you made to me. Yes, I was just going to let it go, but after you kept bringing up how rude, cruel, and inconsiderate people here could be, I felt like I had to say something about it. I know you apologized, but I still have feelings about it (hey, I'm a Taurus - you were married to one, right? So you probably know. I also have a very good memory.)

BTW, you don't have to 'analyze' me - your flaming post did that just fine. It revealed to me what you really thought about me, and I still remember what you said.

Sincerely,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 22:43:47 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Keith - my feelings
Message:
Yes Katie I did a good job of it back then. I've got a good memory too. I was partly incenced at the time by your lack of support for me when I felt most of the forum was in 'lynch Keith' mode. My error. I was in desperation mode. As for Taureans. My Taurean ex seems to have forgiven me for my past sins. We are very close friends. It can happen.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 23:05:28 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: More to Katie.
Message:
I have just read your post exchange with Elaine. Much to contemplate for me. But you did express a lot that was of interest. I'm going to be away for half a day so I'll get back to this. If you haven't 'felt' it I am extending my cyber hand out to you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 14:14:16 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: It's OK, Keith
Message:
And I do appreciate your apology. It (usually) takes a lot to get me angry, but then I stay mad for a while. I'm not still angry at you - I guess you could say I have forgiven you - but I haven't forgotten, so tend to be a bit leary of answering your posts. [I have forgiven my ex-husband (another darn Taurus) too, but I wouldn't ever MARRY him again, if you know what I mean! Broken trust is a very hard thing to fix.]

I still think that you don't have to try so hard to be a 'moderate' influence here, but of course that is up to you. I would appreciate less criticism of 'the forum' in general too (and not just from you). There are a LOT of good people here who make good posts, and making generalizations about them invalidates their contributions. Also, I would like to hear more about your personal experiences rather than your philosophy. But, of course, these, (and all the above) are just my personal feelings and opinions.

Take care,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:39:43 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Keith - A reminder
Message:
I haven't said thank you for some of your posts. Thank you.

You are much more articulate than I. I respect that alot. We may not agree on things someday - but, I surely will not be afraid to ever read your post to me when you respond, bec you are civil,mature and not threatened by different view points.

A person not threatened by different opinions is what I aim for.

Thank you for being an inspiration.
(Needless to say I agree wholeheartedly with just about everything you say and the way in which you say it.:)It happens so often I don't post it.

Elaine

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:57:27 (GMT)
From: De ProGram Anand Ji
Email: not given
To: Kieth
Subject: Keith - A reminder
Message:
Bravo! Kieth you are right sometimes it does seem that we go a little overboard with our cynacism and bitter feelings towards M.
Your courageous observation helps to make us all aware of a tendancy to be extremely negative/critical and to strive for a more mature/balanced attitude.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:51:46 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Keith - A reminder
Message:
I could have said the same to you Elaine. Thankyou too. And I've realised that as you were typing this post to me I was typing a post to you. About hurt puppies. Warm regards, Keith
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 22:23:32 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Keith - A reminder
Message:
Oh, poor little kids, the weakees...I feel for you. Truly. It mas be hard to be you and be here...

People attack your ideas, not you sweet hearts!! Just don't give satsang, please! Well, that is going to be hard to do, since the language you acquired COMES from the guru...Just try, please.

Thanks!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 12:50:27 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Jethro's Post
Message:
Hi,

this thread was sinking to the bottom, so I thought I'd recusitate it.

Jethro wrote:
' Also wish that he (or at least the premies responsible for the site) would publish all of the DLM text. And the Radhasoami heritage of knowledge. I had to come here to find both, and while I know that publishing it here was intended for a completely different purpose, it has meant a lot to me, and I want to thank again the people responsible. '
Same here. I found the ex-premie & JM's site while I was still a premie and absolutely loved it for the same reasons you did. After becoming an ex-premie the site became valuable for the aspirants I was meeting in recent years who were told that all that early stuff didn't happen. Fortunately films/videos of that era still exist.

'I have no information about this. Shouldn't the ones accused answer the allegations? I would hope that Maharaji would not tolerate even the appearance of this kind of behavior among the instructors.'

Well, he did and does know about it and has done nothing.
I met up with a premie who is/was on Elan Vital's investigating committee about Jagdeo. This person told me that at first he thought it was setup by ex-premies, but when he saw reports(from sides of the Atlantic) describing Jagdeos 'activities', he saw that reports were describing identical behaviour and believes that Jagdeo is 'into it up to his neck'. You can check this out with Elan Vital and if they deny it, I will publish the name of that premie. I don't want to do this, I would like him to speak up of his own accord(he is a long term friend of mine). He did say he may particpate on this forum, but has not as far as I know.
If you're reading this, old friend, you are leaving me no other choice. I am convinced that you would be a good participant here. My own opinion is that the only reason why you haven't posted here is that maharaji doesn't want you to.If that is the reason I suggest you get over that.

Anyway Sean please check it out with ElanVital and let us know what they say.

Regards Jethro

Jim responded:
This is critical news, Jethro! You're saying that EV actually set up a real committee to investigate Jagdeo? And that the committee confirmed the allegations or, at least, found them to be likely true? This is amazing. You're actually suggesting that the Hamster struck a committee for some purpose other than setting up the trinket tables or funnelling quasi-legal income into the Hamster's fat coffers. You'd have to go all the way back to 1975 or 6 to find anything comparable in the cult history and all I'm thinking of in that case were those funny three-piece suit corporate make-believe sessions we had when we first tried to deconstruct following the Lord fo the Universe.
But what of this committee? Where's the report and is it anything like Ivette or Janice's reports on ELK? You know, 'We really had a beautiful experience coming together in the harmony of this investigation. Maharaji showed each one of us that clarity can come in even the seediest circumstances. At first, we thought Jagdeo's trangressions were isolated and perhaps untrue. But we soon discovered that he had touched so many in exactly the same way all around the world!.... So where IS this report?

AND, most significantly, what does it say about Susan's 'claim' (as if I doubt her for a second) that Maharaji must have known for years based on her two communications with PAM / Instructors?

LISTEN, MAHARAJI, YOU COWARD: AT A VERY MINIMUM, IF YOU'VE DONE THAT INVESTIGATION YOU'VE DONE IT ONLY BECAUSE OF THE DIFFICULT DISCLOSURE OF SUSAN AND ABI. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU CNA COMPREHEND BASIC HUMAN RESPONSIBILITY BUT PERHAPS YOUR HANDLER / LACKIES CAN EXPLAIN IT TO YOU.

YOU OWE THAT REPORT TO SUSAN AND ABI AND ALL THE REST OF US WHO FORCED YOU TO INVESTIGATE IN THE FIRST PLACE. WHERE IS IT?

Anth responds:

Hi Jim and Jethro,

I too heard that EV Uk set up a 'crisis committee' sometime last summer. It was just after Syd had appeared on the Channel 4 documentary, talking about the Millenium programme, and the Sunday Express were going to do a story on Jagdeo. The impression I got was that the purpose of the committee was damage limitation, rather than a proper investigation into Mahatma Paedophile.

They had Ron Geaves, an old premie, speak to Angus, the old headmaster of Unity School, (no longer a premie). I saw Angus shortly afterwards and had a long chat with him and his wife about things. We'd both mistakenly thought that Abi was assaulted while Unity School was still going, but it turned out to be after the school closed and we'd all left.

Angus and Sally were completely supportive of Abi, and Jagdeos other victims. Angus gave me the impression that Ron was more concerned with protecting Maharaji than bringing Jagdeo to justice.

I don't know who was on their crisis committee, but I could make some good guesses, and probably know them all.

Although I was central in the allegations being reported to the police, nobody contacted me on the matter, other than to threaten legal action if I hinted Maharaji knew anything about what was going on.

Anth the nusiance

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 13:20:42 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Jethro's Post
Message:
Hello Anth,

Well the person I spoke with was Ron Geaves. I was going to contact him, but since you have already put up his name and this issue is too important to be put on the shelf due 'old friendships'.

Just to recap, Ron told me that he was/is on the committee to investigate Jagdeo and that he(Ron) saw two totally different reports from both sides of the Atlantic that showed identical behaviour and he(Ron) believes that Jagdeo 'is up to his neck in it'. That's all we spoke about regarding this issue.

(Ron, if you see this, try not to take this personally, the issue is just too important to be quite about. I really thought that you would have posted here by now, since you said that you could take the forum).

Jethro

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 19:47:37 (GMT)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Jethro and all
Subject: All this
Message:
Respectful Greetings,

I was watching the news on CNN just now and there is this whole thing blowing up about a small town in Massachusetts where some counselor working through a church had molested hundreds of young boys. Cameras in the rectory, photo files on this guy's computer, the whole enchilada. And it's being splashed all over the news, internationally. So it prompted me to see what's up here on the ex-premie Forum and I saw this thread about Jagdeo.

We all had roles to play in this. My wife and I had written a letter to Elan Vital executive offices last year wanting to hear from them about Jagdeo and we got a reply to the effect that nobody knew anything about it. We forwarded that letter to Anth and it should be in your archives, or at least Anth's. That plus a personal e-mail to Maharaji that has not been answered and some exchanges with some of you here was the extent of my involvement.
I hope that our letter helped to motivate EV to act on looking into Jagdeo's case.

My primary purpose was to try to insure that no other kids were in harm's way from Jagdeo or anyone else out there who was being dealt with in the same management style, whether in a premie community or in Fiji. Secondly, I wanted to know that the organization I am part of is dealing equitably with fellow members who have had damages inflicted upon them by EV staff and those appointed to represent Maharaji and his message (which I truly beleive has absolutely nothing to do with this terrible aberration of Jagdeo's criminal sickness). Third, I wanted to know that the message doesn't change through time with regard to how defenseless children should be protected and cared for as more precious than gold.

I do not wish to discuss here my own personal feelings, involvement or lack thereof with regard to Maharaji and/or Knowledge. That is not the issue. Suffice it to say that other than the practice of Knowledge, I have no other connections to Maharaji, official or unofficial.

I still feel a connection to something incredible via Knowledge,
more than snot or eye-pressing sparks. I'm not listening for voices either.

For me, it's not a question of 'premie' or 'ex-premie'. For me,
I just want to know what is really going on, all secrets revealed like it says, ya know?

Aside from any verbal barbs coming at me for past exchanges that were not exactly perfect on either side of the fence, I hope you are all well and healing, as am I trying to do.

SHP

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 07:32:22 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: All this
Message:
Hi Sandy,

I hope all is well with you and yours.

The Jaqgdeo turd keeps rising to the surface of the pool, and probably will continue to do so until someone flushes it down the toilet where it belongs.

Life goes on.

take care,

anth the chain jerker

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 20:37:38 (GMT)
From: premie
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: All this
Message:
I also emailed Maharaji, and urged him to get Elan Vital
to investigate and publish the results, for similar reasons.
It was not because of the abuse link, or Anth's letters,
nor was it Elan Vital's response. It was Susan's posts
on this matter, from a few days ago. I hate to think that
an instructor would get away with that, don't care how
old he is now.
Sean
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 21:22:38 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: premie
Subject: Re:All this
Message:
Sean,

Surely you can see perfectly clearly that there are two concerns in this issue. One is the concern about the crimes committed by Jagdeo, and the other is the concern about the failure to properly respond to the problem by Randy Prouty, Judy Osbourne and Mr. Rawat. You seem to be focusing entirely on the first concern, and ignoring the second, even though the second is every bit as disgusting as the first. It is absolutely laughable that you think Mr. Rawat would have any 'results' published by Elan Vital.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 23:16:00 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: I agree but...
Message:
as much as the denial that I ever reported this bothers me, and it bothers me deeply, I would really take solace if they were to at least somehow communicate that Jagdeo has been stopped.

I once linked the Sports Illustrated article where a man my age, worried about a coach who had abused him as a child, hired a private eye to find out what happened to that man. Well, 25 years later, he was still a coach and still abusing boys. He probably was not much younger than Jagdeo is now. It really upsets me to think that wherever he is, Africa, India, children there may not be protected. I would like to hear that they have at least made sure he has been truly stopped.

Even if they never admit it was reported first in the seventies, I still would like to know he has at least been stopped now.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 07:38:13 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: I agree but...
Message:
Hi Susan,

I think eventually they will have to do something, because he's become a massive embarassment to them.

Glen Whittaker told me once that Maharaji had been close to the creep since he was very small, when his father was still alive. Maybe this explains his reluctance to deal with him.

The sad thing is, when they eventually do throw him to the lions, it won't be because they want to stop his perveted acts, but save embarassment and bad publicity to the cult and its master.

The cults response throughout has been concern how this will affect Maharaji.

Anth the Pest

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 19:56:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Shp, will u please take Keith camping? (nt)
Message:
eeee
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:27:11 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: ham@hamzen.freeserve.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Like the amazon, or mongolia or amaroo maybe?:)
Message:
Perfick, just perfick

Above just in case the spammers have altered your attitude at the moment, but I need an add to send the tape to?

So what music is inspiring you at the moment?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:43:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Like the amazon, or mongolia or amaroo maybe?:)
Message:
7 - 547 Herald Street
Victoria, British Columbia
Canada V8W 1S5

Thanks, can't wait.

Music? You mean besides our own noodlings? There's a band from Seattle I've been digging for the past year or so that I only mention because they're not well know but very, very cool: Critters Buggin' Our drummer turned us on to Slipknot recently and a friend did the same with A Perfect Circle. But last week, we went and saw legendary surf guitar kind, Dick Dale and he was great. Not virtuosic but extremely powerful. Much heavier than I'd have expected and I like that.

And then of course there're all the faceless DJ's that keep spinning in my building and neighbourhood all weekend long. It's all good, in't it, guv?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 00:53:11 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sort ya soon
Message:
DJ's in your buiding etc... hip hop mostly or house based or ...?

Whatever, love it when I'm living somewhere like that,

Were you ever into Husker Du?

What kind of house stuff do you like best?

Thanx for the list, will be interesting to check out

Did you like nirvana?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 01:13:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Actually, I was IN Nirvana, briefly
Message:
Either that or I liked them a lot. Hard to remember. You know, Pacific Northwest scene and everything. It's all a blur sometimes.

Yes, Husker Du, of course. But you were talking about Trip Hop and I love that shit. Mostly Portishead and Massive Attack but Tricky's good too. But you know what else really moved me for the last couple of years and is still a favorite on the Chez Heller CD player? Morphine. How could I forget? Too bad the guy died onstage in mid song. They were great.

Mot of the DJ scene around here is jungle and drum n' bass but don't get me wrong. I've only got a smattering of this stuff and profess little knowledge of genre distinctions. (I also can't take this conversation too seriously having just seen 'High Fidelity' one scene of which is so priceless. It's the Green Day scene. If you've ever enjoyed a little self-worth at the expense of someone else's lack of knowledge of the music scene -- and who hasn't? -- you'll have a good laugh at yourself in that one, let me tell you.)

Someone got me to buy a Happy Hardcore compilation a couple of months ago. Now that's funny stuff as is the story that goes with it. My friend tells me this tuff was sweeping Eurpoe or, more accurately, was about to but all the DJ's, strung out on crystal, E and whatnot, wasted away. Hm... it sounded funny at the time.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 02:23:44 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Trainspotter alert!! Were you ever into dub?
Message:
Either that or I liked them a lot. Hard to remember. You know, Pacific Northwest scene and everything. It's all a blur sometimes.
Yes, Husker Du, of course.

I was really into husker du, along with some pretty wild free jazz, and the stone roses before I joined the dance music cult....and since then it's been repetetive beats all the way, little in joke there, when the goverment produced legislation to ban outdoor raves, one of key definitions was 'repetetive beats', what a joke!

But you were talking about Trip Hop and I love that shit. Mostly Portishead and Massive Attack but Tricky's good too. But you know what else really moved me for the last couple of years and is still a favorite on the Chez Heller CD player?

Ahh well, that's youeasily sorted

, Morphine. How could I forget? Too bad the guy died onstage in mid song. They were great.
Mot of the DJ scene around here is jungle and drum n' bass but don't get me wrong. I've only got a smattering of this stuff and profess little knowledge of genre distinctions. (I also can't take this conversation too seriously having just seen 'High Fidelity' one scene of which is so priceless. It's the Green Day scene. If you've ever enjoyed a little self-worth at the expense of someone else's lack of knowledge of the music scene -- and who hasn't? -- you'll have a good laugh at yourself in that one, let me tell you.)

That hi-fidelity sounds a laugh, read his soccer book, that was brilliant, but not that one
He's a character Nick Hornby.

Someone got me to buy a Happy Hardcore compilation a couple of months ago. Now that's funny stuff as is the story that goes with it. My friend tells me this tuff was sweeping Eurpoe or, more accurately, was about to but all the DJ's, strung out on crystal, E and whatnot, wasted away. Hm... it sounded funny at the time.
You astonish me sometimes, you with a happy hardcore cd, the mind boggles!!
Most of happy hardcore moved into jungle & drum&bass, well jungle came out of happy hardcore originally when it went dark. Hardcore end of drum& bass carried on til about '96, there's still remnants of it around. 92 hardcore got me out of the newaged influence of goa trance, for that I'm grateful.

Heard any Orbital or Underworld?

What would the world do without trainspotters, heh?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 03:28:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Trainspotter alert!! Were you ever into dub?
Message:
Sure, Ham, been listening to both bands for years. No shit. But really, you HAVE to see this movie befroe we go any further. Well, we can go a BIT further...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 03:36:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: credibility correction
Message:
When I say I've been listening to both bands for years I know Orbital isn't really a band. It's just another one of those techno things. But i've got one, maybe two Orbital CD's and yes, Underworld rocks.

And here's the address for Critters Buggin by the way:

http://www.loosegroove.com/critters.html

And here's Morphine:

http://www.morphine3.com/

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 08:27:04 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanx, got all the info I needed now!!
Message:
That's all I needed, thanx jim

Ya see I've got about 70 mix tapes, my own & others, and a lot of of vinyl, and I do have a lot of pride, so if I'm sending I need to be able to hit the mark!

Well otherwise it's just so much head wanking, and since that's where we started - re keith & shp!!
What is worrying is that I was certain shp was returning this week, and that I couldn't explain to anyone, so when Jethro told me shp was back,

weeeeellll

there's only so much pleasure a guy can take!!!

luv ya

oh and ps, I won't take the bait about orbital being a band, cause we both know once we get down to the serious analytical level you can't win that one, but nice try!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 18:16:54 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: OT Excuse me Hamzen ???????
Message:
What is this Goan trance music . It sounds interesting. I take it that it was a music designed on the beach excstasy scene in India. Does it incorporate any traditional Indian sounds?. I bought a cd in Canada which had Joy and various other dj's using an Indian mix. I enjoyed that blend. The music was using the vocals of Nusrat Fati Ali K with an electronic bass drums etc. I bet u Know the album, produced by Michael Brookes?

Hal the ignorant but open to new music.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 21:48:41 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: OT Excuse me Hamzen ???????
Message:
Message:  What is this Goan trance music . It sounds interesting. I take it that it was a music designed on the beach excstasy scene in India. Does it incorporate any traditional Indian sounds?.

Pretty much spot on, it's the ideal route into house stuff, for over forties, hippies, sensitives of all types. The vibes are good, in my opinion and a lot of people I suspect, the music is a tad predictable, but if you think the Orb/Enigma speeded up, same sort of vibe. Orbital are also a good starting spot, some connections to traveller scene, but also early acid house, not so trippy as goa trance

I bought a cd in Canada which had Joy and various other dj's using an Indian mix. I enjoyed that blend. The music was using the vocals of Nusrat Fati Ali K with an electronic bass drums etc. I bet u Know the album, produced by Michael Brookes?
Hal the ignorant but open to new music.

Joy or joi?? The Nusrat track, if it's the one I know, was called Musstt musstt, remixed by Massive Attack, a slower rootsie band, but class act like Orbital, and as with Orbvital nearly all their stuff of the last ten years worth checking out.

Re goa trance, jethro's your man, I've got some great stuff when the goa scene was more tribal, ie more drums, early 90's, he's into it now.

And you're a sweetie, not a mention of the football. Bit of a stroll for your lot yesterday eh, all the way, wadyer reckon?
Finally after all those years of living on faith the truth is finally dawning, all so familiasr, god this country is so premieish at times!

Whats your summer been like, it's awaful over here, although it was really hot around the german game!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 22:29:11 (GMT)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hell no, it was your idea!!(nt)
Message:
ooooooo
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 16:16:53 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Can you call Ron for a little follow up?
Message:
Hey you guys, can either or both of you call Ron to ask what happened and all that? Inquiring minds ...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 22:44:23 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim,read your email(nt0
Message:
fp
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 23:04:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Done, thanks (nt)
Message:
ggg
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 12:32:28 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: jc@jethro666,screaming,net
To: HAL
Subject: To HAL(OT)
Message:
Hi Hal,

I want to ask you something about nothing to do with m.
Could you email me at the above address.
If you're not comfortable about me knowing your private email could you ask Bob Dennis to email me.(He knows me as Eddie Fisher).

Cheers Jethro

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 12:35:35 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Correction To HAL(OT)
Message:
My email should have dots and not commas.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index